Episode 1: Federal Prosecution, Post-Manifesto Polygamy and the Rise of Mormon Fundamentalism [ 1:28:34 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download Episode 2: The Life and Death of the Mormon Speculative Tradition, and the Rise and Costs of Correlation [ 1:27:31 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download Episode 3: The LDS Church as a Corporation & the Corporation as a Church [ 58:07 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download Episode 4: Is the LDS Church Serving God, Mammon, or Both? [ 1:25:08 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download
In this incredibly fascinating 4-part series, long-time Mormon Stories supporter Andrew Ainsworth interviews Daymon Smith Ph.D., a Mormon anthropologist and the author of a new book called: The Book of Mammon: A Book About A Book About The Corporation That Owns The Mormons (Paperback). In this interview they discuss:
- Episode 1: Federal Prosecution, Post-Manifesto Polygamy and the Rise of Mormon Fundamentalism
- Episode 2: The Life and Death of the Mormon Speculative Tradition, and the Rise and Costs of Correlation
- Episode 3: The LDS Church as a Corporation and the Corporation as a Church
- Episode 4: Is the LDS Church Serving God, Mammon, or Both?
Daymon’s fascinating dissertation can be purchased here.
For some time, you had a FOUR PART series interviews with Daymon Smith. I was wondering where I might find those interviews. Thanks,
Wayne
I’m coming to this discussion late, but after just listening to Part 2, have to comment that the discussion on correlation is informing and validating some of my frustrations with the 72 ideas of the gospel. I’m feel pretty solid on those, to be honest. I got it down. I’m bored with the general instruction of correlation and like Andrew referred to I’m itching to move on to the “mysteries.” How I wish there was a post-correlation track for those who are ready to move beyond the basics and seek the “further light and knowledge” that is in the realm of pure speculation now? Sunstone is great for that, of course, but hardly mainstream in the church. Any ideas, thoughts on this question?
Yes, Jenne, it’s the Book of Mormon. There is incredible knowledge in there if one studies (not “reads” but “studies”) it, discarding all “official” interpretation. Prayerfully, intently, openly, humbly study.
Alma 13. Incredible.
Most Gentile references refer to the members of the LDS church (also, “why do ye pollute the holy church of God” can only be referring to us, the members of God’s holy church).
The meat is most definitely there, for anyone who wants to dig deeply and humbly enough.
Joseph Smith was into Masonism (ala the whole temple and ceremonies are almost carbon copied from it) as well as was into Kabbalah from what I gather. You could go to those sources and see what you got there and where those lead you. You are probably far beyond where you were when posting this now nearly two years ago, but figured it may be worth a comment anyhow.
Brigham Young is responsible for the altering the Temple ceremonies. Lots of people get involved in Masonry and never know anything about the higher levels where the darkness really rules. THINGS…are definitely NOT what they appear. This FORT was CAPTURED along long time ago…but still flies the flag of the fort founders. One thing is for certain…once you are off the milk and on the meat…you are in for a long and difficult chew!
I think a quick look at the numbers shows where the LDS church’s priorities lie. Over the last 25 years the church has spent $1.2 Billion on humanitarian aid
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/facts-and-stats
The City Creek Center by comparison is officially at $3 Billion and rising everyday. Unofficial speculation has it at a much higher number.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705341784/Salt-Lake-City-high-rise-is-ready-for-occupancy-on-Main.html
How can this be defended? This mall will cost at least 3 times the total spent of humanitarian aid over the last quarter century. I think Daymen had great insight when he said the church has created a perception through the media that they are service oriented. Every time they hand out a toothbrush they make sure a camera crew is present.
What is the ultimate point of accumulating this kind of wealth? The church could run indefinitely without taking another penny. How much is enough? At what point will the focus turn from hoarding money to serving humanity? It’s widely accepted that church brings in anywhere from 4 to 8 billion a year in tithing, even if you take the low end that would mean the church is only spending 1% on humanitarian aid. That’s less than many corporations like McDonalds, Walmart, AT&T, Microsoft and on and on… As a member this is embarrassing, throughout my life I have been told we pay tithing to “build up the kingdom” turns out the church has a VERY different interpretation of what that means. As for me I will never give another cent to the church until they open their books and offer transparency to the people they should be responsible to.
Craig:
I am not going to defend the LDS Church per se. But at least be honest in your criticism. The City Creek Center may cost 3… 4… heck, even 5 billion. But this is an investment that will generate a return. So isn’t it a bit unfair to criticize a business investment (that will generate earnings) to charitable contributions?
Maybe not? But if revenue projections suggest that the City Creek Center will pay for itself (with interest) in say 10 or 15 years, then perhaps the criticism is unfounded? Especially since the alternative was a decaying down town area and mall. No?
Joe, the Iraq war was also supposed to pay for itself. That was what was so appealing about the plan. That is why all our congressmen approved it.
Investment is just that. It is a gamble. Counties have gambled away pensions over investments that went sour. There is no such thing as a no-risk investment. Should the Church sink faithful members’ offerings into investments that also bear risks? (Is the real estate market going to take another hit? Isn’t a shopping center just a different name for mall– and aren’t they all going under now anyway?)
The question still is: Is it appropriate for a religious organization to manipulate funds the same way a business would. Is it an appropriate use of donors’ funds if the donors have no knowledge of its use. What would a widow in Zimbabwe think to find her hard earned 25cents were used to build a luxury condo? At least in a corporate setting, stock holders have a say in the operations of a business. Church members are left in the dark.
Joe,
From the huge cost overruns to the church cutting the price of condo units in half combined with the fact we live in a time when malls across the country are struggling to stay afloat, it’s hard to believe they will make any money on this project. Also take into account that nobody is convinced that downtown SLC can support two malls a block away from each other. This seems to be a less than inspired investment, however it will give them back some power and influence they have lost within the city of of Salt Lake.
Regardless of the mall issue the most conservative of estimates puts the church under 1% of tithing going to humanitarian efforts. It’s indefensible in my book.
Craig, what is your source for the 1% comment? If true, I would love to know it. TIA.
A 1997 time magazine article pegged the church at somewhere around 5 billion a year in tithing donations. A quick look at the numbers. If there where only 2 million full tithing payers paying 10% of the US median income of $32,000 that would still put the church at over 6 billion a year. These numbers are very obtainable, and it doesn’t take into account fast offerings or money from the for profit side of things so 1% may be very generous. Bottom line is they should open the books to members who sacrifice this massive amount of money.
Tia, go to providentliving.org and the numbers on cash given to humanitarian efforts. I think the number is less than .5%. More is given by member time and donations as well.
While the Mall is the clearest example many point to as confusing certain principles enunciated at the pulpit, it is also important to consider that the “kingdom” is a slippery term, and is used to justify many things which would seem to have little to do with Mormonism (as delivered at Gen Conf, let’s say). The majority of the revenue from tithing seems to land increasingly into projects which have increasinly diminished accountability, either in a strict accounting sense, or in a broad sense of creating anything with any identifiable effects on humans. In short, most of what goes into the great hole of the COB is just burned, like the old Potlatches of the Kwakiutl Indians. A sort of sacrifice to a certain god who prefers the scent of money over the incense of barbecue.
Dear Daymon,
it’s said that Heber J. Grant mortgaged the Salt Lake temple to Wells Fargo and Chase Manhattan so that he would have the resource to start the “Heber J Grant Life Insurance Company”, or (depending on the version of the episode) to buy an interest in a sugar company
(more currently U&I Sugar).
Have you found anything in your research on this regard?
It has been a common belief among some Fundamentalists that the loans were never paid off what would make the Chase Manhattan the actual owner of the Corporation of the president of the church.
I’m confused; I got to your podcast thru an anti Mormon website.Do you believe that the LDS Church- “corporation” is the Lords church on the earth today? I’m sorry for being so blunt but I’d really like to know your true beliefs on this subject.
Tim,
Who are you asking?
The Chase Bank ownership conspiracy theory would certainly explain why corporatism took over and the financial records were closed only a few years after Heber J. Grant’s presidency. It’s an interesting theory, and I can see why a bank would want to own the church, though there doesn’t seem to be much or any evidence for it.
I was in sunday school class yesterday and the teacher asked “What does the church do with tithing money?” I almost replied, “Build shopping malls!” I’m glad that my internal filter kicked in before my big mouth got me in trouble!
I was in sunday school class yesterday and the teacher asked “What does the church do with tithing money?” I almost replied, “Build shopping malls!” I’m glad that my internal filter kicked in before my big mouth got me in trouble!
It appears to me that as the church began to grow, that the leaders were embarrassed (and fear of reduced growth rate) by statements of early leaders and continued speculation later in the 20th century. Harold B Lee, used correlation to get control (and cover up) and the leaders now have tremendous control. The backlash is that the intertnet still provides information that is embarrassing to the church that I believe is a tool used by people to investigate the church and leads them away. On the other hand, what correlation has done in my opinion is to have made it incredibly boring. Link boring, with time consuming, tremendous amount of work all under a very authoritative regime, and with information showing intentiaonal deception (cover up), and it seems like a perfect recipe for diminishing numbers in the church. This appears to me what is happening, in growth, in inactivity, and in apostacy. I have plotted church growth rate since the early days of the church. It is as low now as I have found in the past. The death rate appears incorrectly calculated, apostacy may not be reported to where birth rate a growth rate a slowly becoming the same number (so I think there may still be deception). The internet is trumping correlation and President McKay’s fear will be answered by something outside correlation control.
Note, I find conferences, every Sunday School Lesson, Priesthood Lesson, and most sacrament meeting are tremendously boring.
I wrote this before hearing the last of episode 2. I’m intersted that DS has found it to be boring and to be a script.
Daymon, thanks for providing this insight into a world that matters a lot to us members of the church, but one which we seldom get to see glimpses of. After listening to your four podcasts, and mentally comparing notes with you along the way, I have to agree that “we have gone far astray.”
Of course, the implications of even that simple statement are tremendous. There is a word in the Book of Mormon for religion that is made to be profitable. It is “priestcraft.” To those who have also listened to Daymon’s presentation, now go read Mormon 8: 32-39 and see if we can’t “liken the scriptures” to ourselves. To me, it is heartbreakingly clear that we can.
When we pray for the leaders of the church, let’s pray that they can correct some of these things. As troubling as they are to us who are impure, they must be even more offensive to God who is pure. Though our leaders may not have intentionally brought them about, they are probably our best bet for correcting what has been done.
Thanks again Daymon.
Daymon – I’m a late-comer to Mormon Stories and am just finishing up the 3rd part of your series. It is really fascinating. I am in my Speech and Language Pathology Masters program right now and found the linguistic side that you couldn’t get into really interesting. I would love the chance to read your thesis. Is there anyway that would be possible?
Who is singing on the intro?
skye pixton
I’m just getting through this interview now. Finished Part 1 and 2, and it is fascinating! This has been one of my favorite interviews so far, even as a die-hard, believing member.