Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 157

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign.

Guest [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us today at Mormon Stories. A few quick reminders if you're interested in attending either of our August 4th Sunstone workshops, the morning session focusing on navigating an LDS faith crisis in or out of the church, and the afternoon session focusing on navigating a marriage. When one of you loses their testimony, please email us today. Space will be limited. Second, if you are interested in joining the private Mormon Stories Internet web forum where you can meet and discuss Mormonism in privacy with others like you, please send me an email via Facebook to let me know of your interest. And finally, if you value what we're doing here at Mormon Stories and want to keep this program Alive past July 2010, please consider signing up today to become a monthly paid subscriber to Mormon Stories. All donations are tax deductible. They will go directly to the time and materials used to produce the show, and you can sign up for as little as $5 a month@mormonstories.org thank you for listening and please enjoy the show.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. My name is John Dehlin and I'm very excited to have with me one of my favorite couples on the entire planet, Dan and Lori Gallagher. Dan and Laurie, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Dan Gallagher [00:01:33] Hey, John, thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Hey. Hey, guys. Well, just to give the listening audience a little bit of a background, we have covered a bit what happens in a marriage when one member of a couple loses their faith. And some of you may have listened to a past episode with a woman named Jackie, a dear friend who talked about her marriage when her husband Eric lost his faith. And today we're going to kind of turn the gender tables a little bit and we're going to talk about the situation in reverse in this case with Dan and Laurie. It is Laurie who lost her faith in the LDS Church as an impetus to a bunch of series of changes that they ended up having to make and adjustments to their marriage. So that is going to be the topic today. Dan is a journalist and a mighty fine one, I will add. That is his profession. And Laurie is a. She owns a yoga studio and she is a yoga instructor and a yogi. Is that right, Laurie? That's right, yeah. So just giving them a little bit of background, we will probably get into some of that in short order. But let us begin if it is okay with Dan. Dan, we will begin with you. And I would love to hear a little bit about your early experiences in the LDS Church, a little bit about your parents and a little bit about Some highlights that sort of typify what the church meant to you growing up.

Dan and Laurie's Early Experiences in the Church

Dan Gallagher [00:03:13] Sure, no problem. And often I'll preface because it's going to be. Listeners may get thrown for a loop when they hear our respective stories. I always consider Laurie a far more faithful and spiritual person than I am even today, even though it's not rooted no longer in the LDS Church. Okay, so to start at the beginning, I was. My parents were both. My father was a non member until I was a teenager. I was about 14 when he started the discussions, around 15 when he joined. And when we got sealed in the temple later that year. My mother was more or less raised in the church, grew up in central Utah until she moved to California when she was a teenager and was sort of semi active. And my early childhood years I would kind of classify as sort of as more of a semi active participant. You know, we would go some Sundays and not some Sundays, and I'm the youngest of three. And so the church was always this. It was this kind of good influence in my life, but it wasn't an overpowering culture, you know, mindset in the home, I would say, at least the way I've compared it to some other LDS families that I've known, I've known. So it was very different from that regard. But, you know, I went through it. I went through it in high school, you know, made some. It wasn't until high school that I actually had some friends at school in the church. I had no Mormon friends all the way up into high school that I went to school with. I served a mission. I went to Brigham Man University for a year, then served a mission, then came back. And so I kind of went through the milestones. And I think what I developed was, you know, before a mission, I kind of had the sense that, you know, the LDS Church is a good place, but I didn't really have what I would consider any kind of. Any kind of testimony or real much of a strong belief in the specific doctrines. It was just to me like, you know, a good place that taught people to make good choices, smart choices, you know, clean living. And that appealed to me. I had many friends that, you know, just made a lot of mistakes with a lot of things. So, you know, that that sort of influence appealed to me and I thought it was very helpful. But I think the biggest influence, as I look back, was watching my father go through the conversion process. It was interesting because it's not like he turned from a bad person to a good person. He was a great dad before great person before, but he had this additional kind of light to his character that his personality changed. He became this, you know, what I thought to me was a happier person, and my parents became much closer. And it was this. To me, it was a very transformative experience in my family that really influenced me as I was considering, you know, okay, do I go on a mission or not? Do I really believe this or not? I really think it was that. It was that experience in watching it that told me to take a leap of faith on this whole. On this whole Mormon thing, to say to put it that way, and tell

John Dehlin [00:06:51] a little bit about your experience with your seminary teacher. The one year that you had to.

Part Two Introduction and Support Message

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 158

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Laurie, you read a quote to me last week. I don't know if you have that still available. I'm not going to ask you to read it right now in case you want to drop your headset and go find it, because I feel like it really captured, well, sort of the place you came to spiritually.

Laurie Gallagher [00:00:33] You want me to paraphrase it? I can paraphrase it.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Okay, yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Laurie Gallagher [00:00:38] Ultimately, what I was experiencing was this feeling that something wasn't right within me. Right. Something was off. And it goes back to that longing to know God and to know more. So that's what it was. It was Sam Vega is what they call it. Sam Vega. And it means they tell this story to describe it, about how they give a dog a bone, and he rips the bone apart, but he realizes there's no meat on it, but he's been gnawing on it forever, finally discovers there's no meat on it, so he turns away from it and goes looking elsewhere. So Sampvega means pretty much this term to turn away from. And I felt like that's what had happened with me with the church. You know, I really ripped that bone to shreds. And finally, you know, I started to look away for other things that fed me. And that journey is so internal. And that journey through Eastern studies, through looking for human consciousness and discovering, because as Mormons, we're so clear on who we are. You know, I am the spirit. I am living in a body. I will someday reunite with it forever. It's very clear. But I knew that there was something off. And what I had mostly discovered, I think the huge, freeing revelation for me was, was that my spirit is not my mind. My spirit is not my mind. My thoughts are not to be trusted. Those are the things that get me really depressed. In fact, during this period of time, I ended up driving a carload full of kids to the Oakland Temple on a field trip. So I had little kids in my car, and we were caravanning about an hour away to the temple, and I took the wrong exit. And if you know Oakland, you don't want to be in the wrong part of town with a car full of kids lost. I didn't want to have to get out of the car with a bunch of kids asking for directions. I was stressed out and a little panicked, and I knew all the other parents would be waiting for me. At the temple, worried, I pulled off the freeway on an off ramp. I ended up in front of a van, which is really weird. You don't see a lot of vans in Oakland. It's kind of an urban area. It was like a family minivan. And the bumper sticker on the back of it said, don't believe everything you think. And it was kind of like a signpost from God. Like it lit up and I could hear the thoughts going on in my mind. And all of a sudden I could sense that there was an observer behind the thoughts, these panicked thoughts. Everyone's going to be upset with you. Everyone's going to be worried. You've got to get these kids there. You're lost. Something bad's going to happen. Right? The world's out to get me. But when that realization hit me with that bumper sticker, don't believe everything you think, and I could hear that stream, I started laughing. I saw how funny it was that I took my thoughts so seriously and instantly flipped around and was able to find my way precisely right there. And I was laughing at it. But that was huge for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] So even though you mentioned in Sacred Loneliness or some of the other books that you read and the intellectual stuff on New Order Mormon, I guess what you're saying is that those weren't the fundamental things that turned you away. It was more of a spiritual feeling and a connection, Is that right?

Laurie Gallagher [00:04:33] Yes. And I don't want this to sound arrogant because I know that it does when I say this, and that's not at all how I mean it. But I felt honestly that I was outgrowing the church, that the teachings couldn't keep up with me because I wanted so much more meat. And for a long time that manifested as, oh, I wish they would give us more revelation, more modern day revelation, you know, I want it, I want it, I want to know more. And then it turned into just looking elsewhere for it and becoming. I think the difference too is that within the church, I was always often given ways to learn more and things to do. But I was like, they'll say repent, and here are the steps to repentance. But that's an internal process. And never once was I taught what real repentance was until I'd worked with it on a metaphysical level. It became so internal. And I discovered that really learning about spirituality can only be learned experientially. And so when we spend so much time within the church learning about things, or learning the history of things, or learning stories that don't necessarily teach us how to learn these things experientially in our lives. So yeah, it was twofold that way.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] And was there a part of you that sort of felt as Lehi did in Lehi's dream, but just in the opposite direction that you had experienced this rapture of joy and of meaning and you wanted to share that with Dan?

Laurie Gallagher [00:06:26] Yeah, and I couldn't. And I couldn't find the words to connect us and I couldn't. I felt more like I was off on a hippy dippy trip on my own, you know, like. And I was going to be lonely for a long time. I just didn't feel that anybody spoke both of my languages, both Mormonism and this newfound language that I had. So we ended up in counseling at that point.

When the Terms of Marriage Feel Violated

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Right now, before we talk about counseling, Dan, I imagine that you're feeling like the terms of your marriage have been violated. The hopes and dreams that you had were crumbling down. And what, what's next for Laurie and her journey and how is this going to destabilize our family? Do I have it right? And what would you add or take away from what I characterized?

Dan Gallagher [00:07:25] You know, it's. I didn't think. I never had the fear that she was going to become like a lousy parent or anything because she didn't believe in Mormonism. I had, I didn't. I've never believed that Mormonism is the exclusive way to be a good person, to be a good parent, to raise good kids. That wasn't really the fear. What I feared is that I feared that our languages were becoming too. It was almost like the Tower Babel analogy where people couldn't communicate anymore and so they had to disperse, you know, they had to spread, you know, according to that story. And I thought, okay, are we just becoming too such fundamentally different people that living, even if we love each other, will living together just be too much of a challenge of a problem? Can we do was really more the practical sense. It wasn't, you know, I didn't think, you know, I never questioned her stability as a parent. That wasn't to me, that wasn't what the problem was. The problem was that we just weren't communicate anymore. And I had this fear that she didn't respect, that she wouldn't respect me anymore. Because, you know, there's a couple things, there's a couple pet peeves I have when it comes to Mormonism or religion. I don't like self righteousness at all. So when I see that a lot, especially among like people that might be considered faithful, true believing church members. I hate it. I can't stand it. The flip side is that I hate the sort of like, I don't know if pride's the right word, but the sort of idea that sometimes you see among people who no longer believe that think that, oh, now I've got it figured out. And all these people who still believe are these idiots or whatever. And so I was again, I was still projecting what I thought she was thinking. And that's where I had this fear of, like, can a relationship work if my wife thinks I'm deluded, you know, or holding on to stuff? And I was. What frustrated me is that in all our conversations, I was trying to make her understand that I wasn't unaware of all these problems. You know, it's not like I was like sticking my head in the sand or putting my hand over my ears and going, la, la, la, la, la. I'm not listening. It was that I didn't. And I think we'll get to. As we talk about her counseling in a little bit. But I didn't feel she was really understanding what Mormonism was to me. So she was.

Laurie Gallagher [00:10:20] So.

Dan Gallagher [00:10:22] So she was saying her thought was, well, I learned this stuff and these are the conclusions I came to. Why aren't you coming to them? And I see this happen. I think this happens a lot people, I think, and it's human nature. I think people, we learn something and we think and we want to share it, especially if it's meaningful to us. But, you know, people speak different languages and have different things that. That speak to them and work for them. And so sometimes the things that really move you don't move the other person. And that. I loved a lot of the general ideas I was getting through her embrace of Buddhism. I didn't have any problem with that. But I didn't like. It didn't suck me in, like, wow, the way it did her. And so I was just afraid we were becoming too different to effectively go forward as a family, as a husband and wife.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Right. So, Dan, how was counseling?

Seeking Marriage Counseling Outside the Church

Dan Gallagher [00:11:24] It was very funny. Okay. So we did not go through LDS at all, any LDS social services, which I thought would have been a. I didn't want to do that. I thought that'd be foolish to kind of put the church in a point to mediate something where it's part of the issue. So we. We found. Luckily, Laurie's business partner is a marriage and family therapist, and she obviously couldn't do it, but she referred to us to a friend we went to see this guy, a very nice fellow. What was really funny is that we told ourselves that we're not going to settle things about the church. We're going to see can we deal with this new difference, plus these other problems we've just had for years, and see if we can't kind of rebuild this whole thing and make it work. And we didn't have to twist each other's arms because we both really wanted the marriage to work. I didn't really want a divorce. I don't think she really wanted a divorce. We both really love our kids, and we just knew we had a lot worth fighting for. And so we went. And what was really funny is we ended up into it while we told ourselves we were going to talk about a lot of things. I'd say 90% of what we talked about was the church. And this poor guy knew nothing about Mormonism, Nothing at all. Most of our sessions were us explaining to him what the church was, what the teachings were, what the culture was.

Laurie Gallagher [00:13:09] Well, because he, you know, we were trying to explain to him why it was a problem that I didn't believe anymore. And he did, because to the outside world is like, what's the big deal? You know?

Dan Gallagher [00:13:19] Yeah. I mean, mixed faith. I mean, this happens all the time. I had a good friend who was raised Catholic, married a Jewish guy, and she was like. And she's like. And she was telling me about, oh, she's probably getting convert to Jew to being Jewish. I thought, oh, why are you doing that? She's like, well, I think it's important for the first for kids and family to have a unified religion. And it was such a. Like a. It was like deciding what house or car to have. You know, it was like, they weren't really that attached to it. It was really hard to relate to coming from the Mormon world. The what? The reason this worked, I didn't real. I didn't. It was frustrating for a few appointments because I'm like, are we just paying this guy money to tell him to

John Dehlin [00:14:00] catch him up in the church?

Dan Gallagher [00:14:02] You know, what was really funny is we were probably getting our money's worth, because I think he spent three times as much time as he did talking to us on the Internet after we left, trying to figure all this stuff out and research it. But here's where I think a key part of the breakthrough was for us is that we'd been married 14 years at this point, and there was some basic stuff that we did not understand about each other, about why. About how we each related to the church and why we believed. And that was really amazing. I wonder, does this happen with a lot of LDS couples? Especially Mormon couples tend to marry young. I think a lot of assumptions get carried into a Mormon marriage where you assume that the other has this testimony of these basics, Joseph Smith restoration, blah, blah, blah. And you take that for granted and go forward with your life. But people really have very unique ways in which they believe. Unique things have happened in their life in terms of why they believe and what they believe. I don't think Laurie and I understood fully each other at our roots, what our roots were related to Mormonism. And so as we would tell the counselor our stories, she would tell hers, I would tell mine. I remember listening to her thinking, I didn't know that, you know, 14 years of marriage, I didn't know that that's what. And I think to. To be general about it, I didn't realize how traditional her Mormon upbringing really was. I had thought it was kind of untraditional because she had this really kind of liberal, independent mother who was a convert and, you know, dad was a really kind guy. I kind of envisioned her upbringing as a little more similar to mine, which it really wasn't in terms of what the church was as a culture and as an expectation. And how she related to was very humbling. I thought, I haven't married this woman 14 years. I didn't know this well.

Laurie Gallagher [00:16:09] It was so. It was something magical about sitting with a third party person talking about these things. Dan said things I'd never heard before. I guess you just assume that your partner knows these things because you've feels like you've talked about everything. But I. And the counselor did comment. He kept commenting about, I'm so impressed you are listening so well to each other. But we were both just sitting there like astounded that, wow, I never knew that. I really fully enjoyed sitting and listening to Dan tell his story.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] So isn't it amazing what couples don't talk about?

Laurie Gallagher [00:16:53] Yes.

Dan Gallagher [00:16:55] Yeah. And I think, I think I. And that's where I said, I think Mormonism almost provides, I don't want to say a false foundation, but like I said, I think when two people enter in and they say, okay, I'm married, another member, I just think there's these assumptions that happen that leave out a lot of key parts of understanding that person. And of course we married at 21, you don't think about that. But it was. Looking back to it, it's really kind of amazing. We made it 14 years without understanding some of this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Right? Yeah. So did you come out of therapy fixed or with a new lease or how did that work?

Considering Separation and Staying Together

Dan Gallagher [00:17:42] How did it go? Because I think, Laura, you were the one that first voiced that maybe we're just done.

Laurie Gallagher [00:17:48] Well, I had had a big epiphany. I had been to a retreat at the meditation center, and I had this big epiphany, which was basically that to have more faith in Dan, that somewhere deep down, even though consciously, I knew he's intelligent, he's smart, and I knew all those things, and I respected him. Deep down, I was still thinking, like, there was a slight lack of respect for him, not investigating all of this, not being willing to do that.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] And that's very common. It's very common for the disbeliever to just to think their spouse is being willfully ignorant or blind or. I hear it all the time. It's one of the most common themes. They feel the believing spouse feels degraded because they feel like the disbeliever thinks they're stupid for not seeing the facts.

Laurie Gallagher [00:18:47] Well, I didn't think he was stupid, and I didn't want him to feel that way. But we both thought that about the other. We both thought the other wasn't going to respect us. And that became clear as we talked. We both wanted to be respected by each other. But what I came to realize was that as I learned about his story and the way that he related to the church, he was being smart, he was being intelligent. That staying to the church was just as viable of a path for him and where he was at as it was for me leaving. And that he needed support and love to follow his own path within the church. And I need to not only just give him, you know, permission, which sounds lame. I don't like that word. But I needed to not just tell him, it's okay for you to go to church and take the kids, but I needed to help get the kids ready and talk to him about it. And what did you like today? And I needed to stop disregarding his experience as valid. So when I was able to find that kind of space, and instantly when I realized that, it was almost instantaneous for me, all the grating and the frustration seemed to melt away. And the funny thing is that, you know, if you make space for somebody like that, it comes back to you, like, a hundredfold. So it was really quick that we stopped having the grading in our conversations, and we started to morph into this space of I'm going to support you, and you're going to support me, and we're going to have totally different paths. And while I want to understand where you are at spiritually and what you relate to, please share that with me. I really want to know. It's different than what I am going through and what I need, and that's okay. And together we can meet. But being married and loving each other means holding each other up, giving each other space and love. And ultimately, you get to make every decision in your marriage from two places. From either fear or from love. And before we'd been, everything had been, you know, deep down, there was this stickiness. There was this fear underneath it. You know, am I going to be doing this alone? Am I alone? And ultimately, marriage is this feeling of being one and being connected. So if you have totally opposite viewpoints, how do you find that connection? Well, we found it through supporting each other on individual paths.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] But it feels like Dan had to give up the most. And this is how it's often framed. We had an agreement when we got married. These were the terms. Temple marriage, commitment to the church, going to the celestial kingdom. Dan, it is easiest to feel like you got the worst end of the deal. You had to give up. You had to be the one that sacrificed. You had to suck it up. She is the one who did the bait and switch,

Dan Gallagher [00:22:11] you know. No, I don't think that at all. Well, I mean, not bait and switch, for one, because she. Here's where I. Part of, when I look back here is part of why I was so disoriented in the whole switch is that when we married and for most of our relationship, even now, Laurie's been a better Mormon. You know, she's been a more spiritually driven, more faithful, you know, And I had. I think I had this kind of immature notion that she was going to get me up there. You know, I'd ride her to the celestial kingdom. And I was, you know, I felt a lot of my life. I'm not a great Mormon. I had, you know, since I was a kid. I hated the fact that church people didn't like rock and roll. They would talk about it's the devil's music. I loved rock and roll. I thought it's stupid. And, you know, I've had. I've had a lot of disconnects with certain church theories and teachings. And I've always disliked a lot of the cultural stuff. And so I, you know, so when. When the switch happened, I think that's where I felt kind of like, okay, too much of a change. Has happened because I can't be the good Mormon here in our relationship. That's not. This doesn't work. You know, haven't you been paying attention so that, you know, it sounds funny of course when I say that, but, you know, the reality was I was like, I felt like I was. And what was scary to me is like I was projecting ahead. Okay, what's going to life going to be look like is kind of, at least within the Mormon world, I'll be like a single parent taking my kids to church or whatever activities. And I thought, I can't do that. I'm not that good.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] So you had to suck it up.

Dan Gallagher [00:24:07] So I thought so you had to step up. Yeah. And what was good about it in that sense is it did help me. I had to clarify to myself what, what did I really believe about Mormonism? Because, you know, basically. And what I think she heard in the counseling sessions and finally understood and was the reason why I could hear, deal with all this historical stuff and not say, oh, I've got to leave is that none of that stuff was really key to what my relationship to the church was. You know, my relationship was that the Mormonism had this powerful impact, positive impact for my family, that it was something that I felt this certain attachment to and loyalty to. And I literally knew, because I just didn't grow up in a very Mormon centric environment, that I had the strong feeling that my life was better because of my association with the church, with living, making good decisions and that. And it didn't have anything to do with really with what did Joseph Smith see in that grove and how many wives did he have and so forth. Those things were the backstory, but they weren't what connected me to it. So I was always able to read the history as this academic interest. And I totally, I find church history totally fascinating. I love the unvarnished warts and all stuff. It's crazy stuff. And crazy is what it should be because that's humanity, that's people. But that's not the way most relate to it. The church uses its history as this devotional tool and that's not what it was for me. And so, but back to your point, we didn't have. I didn't feel cheated that way. What I did have to do is I had to figure out, okay, what do I really believe and what am I going to do? Because I can't. I've got to be responsible for it. I've got to be responsible for what I believe and what I'm Going to have the kids participate in and go forward there. And I don't think I lost a lot of,

Navigating Eternal Marriage Beliefs After a Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [00:26:42] how about your place in the celestial kingdom?

Dan Gallagher [00:26:46] You know, that experience I told you about earlier when, you know, when I kind of had that feeling come over me that it was going to be okay, I lost my fear of that. I lost my fear of what was going to happen because I'd always, you know, I've always had a little bit of a skepticism that, do we really know everything we think we know anyway? Is it going to be the detailed way that Mormon theology says it's going to be, or is that just the way people. I've always been able to have somewhat of a metaphorical view of things. And so I thought, okay, is that the way when Joseph had visions or Brigham had visions or whoever? Are they just relating it in the way they think and understand it? Is it really going to be that way? So I really didn't have a lot of great attachments to specifics to it and my general attachment to the idea of having our relationship continue. I felt okay after that experience. I just felt okay about it. I don't know how else to explain it. I lost my fear. I lost my fear of what it was going to be. And I felt that confidence that, you

John Dehlin [00:28:00] know,

Dan Gallagher [00:28:02] we can go forward with this, we can do this. And what helps a great deal is that she is still a very spiritual person and has a lot of these wonderful new ideas that as I'm learning more about, and we're kind of like, you know, it's kind of fun to think of how we can mesh this together for our family and make this kind of Mormon, Buddhist, whatever, stew. I don't know, who knows how it'll turn out, but there's a lot of fun possibilities once you drop the fear. Can you take good things from these traditions and put them together into something and not be too attached to a certain idea of a certain outcome?

John Dehlin [00:28:51] I really want to explore that. And, Laurie, I know you probably want to jump in. Let me just ask one last question. It's going to seem like I'm belaboring the point, but you guys need to bear with me because I have couples knock on my door, literally, or email me every week, where the believing spouse basically says, I want to divorce my spouse because they've not kept up their end of the bargain. So I guess, Dan, I would love to have you make an argument, if you're comfortable doing it to other believing spouses out there, as to why they should not just Take that route and just say, hey, I want to be married in the temple. I want to keep it simple. I want to have my kids raised with a partner who is believing and devoted to the church. So I am going to cut my losses and run, find a faithful member and live out my days, you know, because, you know, I love my partner, but the gospel is the most important thing to me, and consequently, this marriage is over. Do you have. No. You laugh, but, I mean, I get that. Every. Every single week, I get that. And my question to you is, do you have a case for why a believer should reconsider that. That perspective?

Dan Gallagher [00:30:14] Sure, sure. A few thoughts on that. For one. Strictly, I'm not going to hold myself out as the ultimate church doctrine expert, but I'm unaware of any advice church leaders have ever given that a believer should leave their unbelieving spouse. I've never heard that. I don't think that's. And I think this is a faith on me because I've never sat down with one of the apostles or first presidency. But I'm willing to bet if you got an audience with each of the 12 apostles in the first presidency and said, hey, I'm a believer, but my spouse doesn't believe, should I leave him? I'd be willing to bet that they would not push for that decision for that course of action. A lot depends on the individual relationship. Does not believe in spouse. Are they completely disrespecting the believer and making it hard? I mean, there's a lot of variables, obviously, but in a relationship where two people still love each other and want to respect each other, but one doesn't have these beliefs, I really don't think. I don't think that's what the church wants to see happen. I don't think the church wants to see families broken apart. And I got that. We talked to our bishop finally, after we kind of settled all this with ourselves, we felt, because Laurie was going to dial back her activity level, and we felt the bishop at least needed to know that and understand why. And so she met with him. And then I met with him later. And the message I got from him was just one of saying, look, your family's the most important. You're going to get whatever support you need from me that your family and marriage stays together, you know, there is not a single hint of, are you sure you want to stick in this? You know, so I don't think that. I don't think the church wants that. For one, for two, if you're. Here's the problem, okay, you leave a spouse who doesn't believe, find a new spouse who believes. There's absolutely no guarantee that they're not going to face the same problem going forward. Belief is such a fungible thing, and you never know what kind of experiences people are going to have in their life to change it. And even if you married somebody and say, and make it, like, clear up front, hey, if you ever disbelieve, I'll leave. That's not going to stop it. Beliefs grow and change, and sometimes they stay within a certain sphere and sometimes they don't. So you're not getting any additional security there. You're just, you know, you're trading and you're ignoring the fact that you might have great things, other things with your spouse. You know, I mean, if I, If I had said. If I had said, okay, I can't stay with Laurie because she doesn't believe, I'll find a believer, yeah, I'm sure I could have found a woman that probably would have been, you know, stronger than the church and stayed stronger. But, gosh, I would have lost so many other great things that I had with Laurie, and I would have just traded new problems for old problems. So I don't think that was the right. On a practical basis, that wasn't really the right solution. But I think the main thing here, and this is my own belief, and one of the few things that I'd say I have a real strong testimony of, is I think God's love is very powerful. And I think it's a lot more expansive than we often tell ourselves,

Laurie Gallagher [00:33:53] especially

Dan Gallagher [00:33:53] with, and even within the LDS Church. The LDS Church, I think, is a good, you know, I think LDS theology has a loving God for the most part, and, you know, has this God that wants people to be happy, and that's in theology. But, you know, we overlay so many rules and things on it and convince ourselves that, you know, everything we do is, you know, if we do this, run the wrong thing, we're going to lose blessings and everything. And I just don't think. Think it's that way. If you have a spouse that's struggling to believe or doesn't believe, that doesn't mean God doesn't love that spouse, doesn't love you, and doesn't value your relationship. And I just don't think. I just don't see that in the hereafter that that's going to be some sort of. That there's going to be a punishment for that. I think if you go forward and faith faith and continue to build the good things that your family has. I really believe that's the right path. You know, of course, all things considering if the rest of the marriage is good, you know, if, you know, if there's other problems, if people are disrespecting each other, I mean, that's kind of different, you know, but, you know, if you really have two people who love each other and the only problem is that one's lost their faith, I just don't find that a compelling argument. I think there's a lot of powerful reasons to stay, and I really believe that God would prefer that, if that doesn't sound too bold.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] No, and I'll just second that. I've had the good fortune of traversing the halls of church headquarters and, and speaking with some leaders there who have asked me not to share their names. And when I asked this exact question of someone whom our listeners would know their name, should a believing LDS spouse leave their non believing spouse, that person was very quick to say that everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. I got the sense that they definitely didn't want people to stay in unhealthy relationships that were truly unhealthy. But I was definitely not giving the impression that the direction is you definitely leave your spouse. And the impression that I was given was that you should do everything you could to make the marriage work and to stay committed to your spouse, even when they stopped believing. And that that literally did come from amongst the highest levels of the church. So I'm just adding that as a brief anecdote to what you've already expressed. What's your reading? Just finally on this point, what's your reading of Christ and the Savior and how he would respond to this situation in a marriage?

Renegotiating the Marriage Relationship

Dan Gallagher [00:36:55] Well, my read is that he spent his whole ministry trying to bring people together, bring people together who had diverse interests and backgrounds and ideals. And his wasn't a ministry of like, stick with the people that you believe. Like, he was constantly telling people accept others, telling Pharisees to accept the sinners and what do they call them? The publicans, whatever. I forget that term. But, you know, his life wasn't based on keeping people apart and segregated by what they believed. That's total counter to what, at least what I read his life was about. And, you know, when you have a marriage, you're two different people. Even when you're a young Mormon who you think you share this theology, and you're so young that you haven't had a lot of diverse life experiences, you're different people. And, you know, a marriage is going to be hard. You know, the best marriages are hard work. And, you know, I really think that when you get, you know, especially, I think since probably, I mean, you could tell Vince better because you talk to so many people. But I think a lot of these faith Christians happen in the first year of marriage. I think mostly they're happening 10, 20 years of marriage is my sense. People have been together a while that have kids. How much do you have really that's good. And working at that point, that's worth throwing away because you have different views about what Joseph Smith did 100, 200 years ago or whatever. You know, it just, you know, it doesn't really work. Now I'm being a little flip. You know, the rest of the relationship does have to be working. And if you have, you know, spouse, you know, if you have spouses are disrespecting each other, doing things to hurt each other, I mean, there may be good reasons to consider a divorce if the relationship was unhealthy anyway. And, you know, I think there may be situations where maybe the church was the only thing keeping people together. So I can't make this like 100% prescriptive. Everybody's got their own situation. But what I would say is that if you, if you're somebody that had this great relationship until you hit this belief roadblock or some one of them lost their belief, you know, I just don't think that's, that's worth believing. Breaking up all the good things that you'd have in a marriage to break up, to say nothing of the fact of what it does to the kids. I think that's a lose lose scenario, really, if you're going to base it on what Jesus was trying to do and teach. I don't find the justifications in that for doing that, to be totally honest.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Sure. Okay, so let's. Laurie, you were going to jump in. Was there something you were wanting to follow up on,

Laurie Gallagher [00:40:16] just to jump on what he was saying? I think that what ends up happening in a faith crisis is that that ends up being a tool to either work out all of the other things and actually grow in your marriage, if you're willing to take a look at yourself or it can really split you up. But what it did for us was it taught us what was really important. So as you were saying that he ended up with the short end of the stick. And in that situation, I totally saw it through his eyes. What would I feel like if I were the faithful One. And he came to me, and I was really careful and gentle in the changes that I made. I knew that the one thing, you know, you can't control or love, you can't control other people's beliefs and thoughts. And I wanted the freedom to have my own beliefs and thoughts. And I wanted the freedom to really pursue and explore this seeking that I was doing. And in order to have that, I knew not to rock the boat, right? And I didn't really. It wasn't important to me to go changing my lifestyle, so I lived the Mormon lifestyle. So while he was losing, in his imagination, he was losing something that we were the same when we never were. So a lot of what we were living before was not even real because we didn't even understand where we were coming from. But I was really careful. I didn't drink. I didn't run out changing my lifestyle. I kept the word of wisdom, all those things, so that I could keep it to the things that were important to me. And I think that that helped us really listen to each other. Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] If I can just jump in, that is the almost. It's a guaranteed issue that pops up. It's usually the man that loses his testimony first. And for some reason, his immediate instinct is, let's go drink beer. Let's have some wine with dinner. Let's start seeing our movies.

Dan Gallagher [00:42:31] It's all those Budweiser commercials in the Super Bowl.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] I've even heard of husbands who are like, honey, I want to start looking at porn. And I understand. I totally get where all that comes from. There's a psychological sort of, I want to break free. I don't want to be held down. There's something symbolic, I think, psychologically, in this impulse to violate some of those things that are considered really the core of Mormon identity. I mean, what's a Mormon? It's someone who dresses nice and doesn't drink and doesn't smoke and doesn't cheat on their wife and doesn't do drugs. And so there's this impulse to be the opposite of that. But what that often does is it makes the. The believing spouse feel like everything has now caved in. Not only is the spiritual worldview caving in my hopes for eternity, but now my children are going to have to see beer and wine in the fridge. And who knows whether my husband is going to go out getting drunk and crashing the car. And I am not saying those are logical, because I am fully aware that there are millions of people in the world who. Who drink responsibly and Drink coffee and it's no big deal at all. But, Laura, sometimes it's really hard for the disbelievers to show restraint on some of those lines. I don't know if that's a guy thing or if you just showed a lot of restraint.

Laurie Gallagher [00:44:02] You're curious about it. But here's the thing. On the pragmatic side, I've learned a lot from Daniel. You end up with a certain amount of currency, right? What do you want to spend it on? If I'm going to ask him to change, do I expect him to change and accept me 100% different than I am? Am I totally different than I ever was? And I understand that's probably at the root of the question, is who am I? Without the Mormon framework, who am I? And really, for me, I just wanted to be smart about it. I knew that the minute I went out drinking, none of my Mormon friends were going to listen to me anymore, because that was going to be the reason. And I didn't want that to be the reason. That's not the reason that I decided that the church wasn't true. And I didn't want that to be the scapegoat. And to be perfectly honest, it really has served me well, this healthy lifestyle. I don't regret living the way that I lived. I don't even regret believing for all those years. I feel like. And I think maybe this is key to why I'm not angry. I'm not frustrated with the church. I get frustrated with certain things, but I don't get bitter or angry because I feel like I'm gaining instead of losing. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:45:24] Sure.

Laurie Gallagher [00:45:25] I feel like I'm gaining more clarity rather than. I'm just glad not to be under that anymore, the fear that I felt under Mormonism and all of those beliefs. But we ended up, you know, working with the lifestyle was really important and recognizing that at the base of the church, all of the church teachings come back to Jesus and all of Jesus teachings, even me, I don't necessarily believe in the atonement anymore. But that man, Jesus Christ, walking on the earth as a human had some of the deepest teachings on love. You know, that's unparalleled with all the spiritual teachers. That man knew love, and that's what Mormonism is really about. So it sounds so simple. And when we hear about it at church, it sounds kind of boring and simple. Yes, yes, love your neighbor. But the truth is that to really love and to use love as your guide for life, it's a Huge job. It's bigger than we think it is. But that is the path. So to throw in celestial marriage as a manipulation or a hook that we get caught on is a complete diversion. In fact, if you're looking at the iron rod, that's somebody off on the path calling you off of it. We're going to give the iron rod a meaning. It's love. Hang on to it and try and let that guide you. You also have to be willing, if you're really going to work through this, you have to be willing to drop your spouse's issues and pick up your own. Because so much. We spent so much of the initial time just saying, he's not doing this. I wish he would do that. What's wrong with this? And he's frustrated with me. And then we have no energy left to really look at ourselves. So. So the added bonus to going through the counseling and looking at our situation was that we each started to really look inward. What do I believe, what's important to me, and how can I treat him better? How can I come out better in this situation? And we ended up, I think, creating a new marriage contract.

Reframing Expectations and Finding Common Ground

John Dehlin [00:47:45] Let me ask about that. I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to frame it because I think it'd be kind of fun to frame it this way. Like, Laurie, let's say you guys were sitting down that first aid, it's sort of like, well, here are the terms that I want. And then Dan's like, well, here are the terms that I want. Paint a picture of the terms that were beyond what the other ended up being comfortable with. So if I could have had my way, this would have been the terms. Laurie, you go first and then Dan, you say, if I could have had my way, this is what the terms would have been. And then talk about how you guys worked through that negotiation, because this should be an hour in and of itself. The renegotiation of terms is one of the most crucial elements of this whole deal because the whole terms that you started with have now crumbled. So, Laurie, what will your ideal terms have been? You know, within reason.

Laurie Gallagher [00:48:45] Well, so the funny thing is, I don't think for us it was. It is another hour discussion. Because what we found was that all of our fears about what our terms would be are different. They weren't real. So when we sat down to actually do it, I mean, day one, I would have said, I want the freedom to go. I want you to support me emotionally while I go off to a three day meditation Retreat. Well, guess what? He already is supporting me emotionally. And he would say, I'm imagining that that first day, he would have said, I want you to come to church with me without saying snarky things, you know, so those are things we've worked on, but at the end of it, when we sit down and we're wanting to make it work, what it really comes down to is that our marriage is still based on the same things, and they come down to simple values, and our values are the same as they ever were. You know, and the things that we're teaching our kids, they all boil down to, you know, being kind and being smart, respecting others, working hard. I guess that the fear was unwarranted

John Dehlin [00:50:02] because to live the values that you always believed it would just be easy to renegotiate because you would just love and respect the other person.

Laurie Gallagher [00:50:12] Yes, but I think in order to get there. In order to get there, we had to drop our story, these elaborate stories about Joseph Smith and celestial marriage and this and that. We had to be willing to. To understand what's important and get out of that story. You know, I recognize that how I'm viewing the church is my own viewpoint, and he has his own. And they can't be the same. They never were the same. We just thought they were.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] So, Dan, how would you. How would you answer that? The framing that I. That I put up.

Dan Gallagher [00:50:47] Well, very similar. I mean, the fact is that, you know, the main values that have driven our relationship didn't change. I think a part of that was helped by the fact that we didn't have, you know, we weren't super. We didn't try ever to be super orthodox about every facet of Mormon life. So, you know, for us, it was not like kind of hitting every single point, you know, on that spectrum that we had to renegotiate. It's not like we were going to the temple every month together, and then all of a sudden, she never wants to go, and I want to go every week, and we have to figure that out. It was never anything like that at all. But what we had to. At the beginning of all this, I think, like I mentioned earlier, I wanted her to have some sort of positive relationship with the church, even if it was a reduced, somehow reduced relationship. That's what I wanted then and what I came to being was that I simply wanted her to respect why I felt a connection. It didn't matter. It doesn't matter so much to me anymore what she thinks the church, you know, I mean, I'm curious about it, obviously. But, you know, what I needed to be able to really function was the respect of why I felt I wanted to continue to associate with it. And I got that when we went through this counseling. We got to that position. I felt that's where I ended up. And, you know, much of the, like, you know, like, said I didn't want her. I never wanted her to feel forced into anything and this. And so I didn't want her to come to church because she felt she had to do it because I wanted her to do it. So I pretty much dropped that. I don't. She comes when she wants to come and she doesn't. I go some days and some days we don't. We do something else. We've done other things as a family. I've gone with her to some of these retreats and that. So we're trying to learn about each other more a little bit. And in fairness, she understands the Mormon world very well, and I understand this new world of hers very little. And I feel I need to make more efforts. But, you know, I don't have. I don't place expectations on her as far as what she does with the church because I want her whatever she does and chooses to be her choice and whatever that, whatever, you know, her, you know, so if she only comes only because she wants to be with us that day, that's still her choice to make. And it's not something I'm forcing on her. And I can sit there in church and be comfortable even if something really crazy is set over the pulpit that I know is going to bother her and bothers me too, probably. I'm comfortable. I don't wince anymore. And that was what made that hard for a long time, is we couldn't. I felt like I dreaded every Sunday because I knew somewhere something at church was going to set something off and set off an uncomfortable discussion. And that's gone. You know, it's not that we don't disagree about stuff we do, but, you know, we're not. We don't have an agenda. We don't. Or I don't feel like she has an agenda towards me, and I have one towards her. We can just kind of, you know, here's our different views about it. The only thing really that was kind of Mormonish that I think was. Was a place that I probably couldn't have gone to was drinking. And it's not even the full word of wisdom I kind of have. I grew up with a father who drank. He was very responsible about it. I never saw him drunk. I'm very well and knew a lot of people who drank, so I'm well aware of the fact that many people can drink and they're fine with it. But I also grew up around a lot of people who had problems with it. And early in my young life, before I had any kind of belief or testimony of Mormon theology, I just decided I just didn't want alcohol to be a part of my life. And I just wasn't comfortable with that. And so it wasn't a really big issue because it's not like when we were talking about this, she said, oh, I think I want to drink now. But as we had a few conversations where we've talked theoretically about, you know, what kind of changes could we make and what would work. And I've just kind of said, you know, that's one. And we've known other couples and other, other LDS people who've, after losing their faith, have begun to drink and most of them do fine with it. And I just said, you know, I'm not, that's something. I'm not trying to keep you Mormon. It's not trying to, you know, it's not even for myself about word of wisdom. I'm just not comfortable with that. And that's been. She's never pushed on that. And, you know, maybe, and maybe my deal will change at some point. You know, we just, we both agree to have open minds about, you know, where things might end. But it's really been, you know, I felt, and I think for couples going through this, you know, I think to be totally realistic and pragmatic, I think it's unrealistic for a believer to expect a non believer to keep up every trapping of the LDS lifestyle for the long haul. I think you have to understand that there should be some things renegotiated. It might be they might not have an issue with the word wisdom, but maybe they don't want to attend church all the time or something. I mean, it really depends on the person. And I think you have to be flexible to that. At the same time, the non believer, I think, needs to understand that it's not really realistic to have the, to expect the believer to give up everything. There's a point to meet in the middle somewhere. And if two people kind of love and respect each other, understand that, I think it can, you can get there. You know, you just have to, I think you can be realistic about what's important to you and be honest and fair. And I'd like To see more people get there. I think just what happens is that people. Everything happens at the same time and it messes up. So I'm very glad that Laurie did not announce that she disbelieved and grab a beer at the same day, because then I would have thought, okay, what's going on? Is it really a theological concern or does she just want to have a beer?

Attending Church Alone and Emotional Challenges

John Dehlin [00:57:59] It muddies. It muddies it.

Dan Gallagher [00:58:01] It does. And so I'm glad. And some couples, I guess, can't turn back the clock if that's already happened. But I think you need to. What she said, there's a certain currency, and you want to make sure that you don't want to muddy the waters in terms of what's really going on.

Laurie Gallagher [00:58:20] Well, and I think in Mormon terms, it's, you know, by their fruits you shall know them. So if losing your Mormon faith makes you a miserable person to be around, if I turned into this nasty woman, you know, who wants to be around that? Nobody. And that's just proof that it doesn't work. Like, then you cling to the church even more. So as the non believers, the person trying to navigate and exit, you have to be aware of that, you know, and it's hard because it's painful and it's frustrating and you lose. Everything falls out from under you, and you're trying to figure out what to keep and what to lose. And I guess moving slowly and gently through that is really helpful. Really helpful.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] So, Dan, this is a real quick question, but is it sad to go to church alone without Lori?

Dan Gallagher [00:59:13] It depends on the day, really. It depends on what's said. Because some days, whoa, man, I'm glad she wasn't here. You know, it's funny, and here's an interesting point of our timing that was interesting for our experience is that all this was happening.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Let me guess, Proposition eight?

Dan Gallagher [00:59:38] Proposition eight? How did I know we had Proposition eight? Now, what was funny about that is that both of us agreed on that. We both were against it. Like I said, among a few other disconnects I've had with the church for many, many years is I'm politically kind of liberal. And I actually that that happened to me after I came home from a mission. So. So, you know, it wasn't like something that was a part of, like, losing faith. It was just kind of where I developed and grew. And so. And as this whole, you know, we moved in California all my professional life. And so we were here for Prop 22, which made us both very uncomfortable, but we were Both much more in the church at that time. So we kind of. We kind of stayed out of it, but we're kind of uncomfortable with it. When Prop 8 came around, we both really solidified our view that, you know, we just don't agree with the church on this at all. And what. What made it so that in a way that was good because we had something related to Mormonism that we could be united on. We. At that time, there wasn't a lot else that we could be, that we felt we could discuss in a united way way. But this was. So that was good in that respect. It made it a little harder for me as the person who was kind of the believer wanting to stay, because now I'm having to say, like, to sell the case for a church that's like, you know, actively doing this big thing that we both really disagree with, kind of made my job harder, sadly.

Laurie Gallagher [01:01:20] But, you know, I have to say, though, that Dan's made. When I go to church, he's made it really easy. So part of accepting that, you know, his part of not trying to push me into a specific belief has given me the freedom to come and not feel pushed or prodded at all. And so if something crazy is said from the pulpit or something very literalistic, he'll look over at me and he'll give me a big wink and we'll just kind of smile. And it's just nice to know that you can be validated for thinking whatever you want to think and appreciated for making the effort to be there. You know, it's been a good balance that way.

Dan Gallagher [01:02:03] Right there is. Some days, though, it's not so much a sadness, but it's like. It's like I have a small relation to how I've heard people who are single late in life or divorced, who are kind of like outside that core nuclear family ideal Mormon model and how uncomfortable they feel. I've heard a lot of people talk about that, and I'm not in that position. I'm married. But there are many Sundays that I'm there by myself, just with my kids. And sometimes I think that, am I a real Mormon family here? Because there's all the other families. Both are there. But, you know, that's more of a cosmetic thing. And it's just something that occurs to me at times. It doesn't make me sad. It just. It just. It's kind of a more. I spent years in the church, you know, looking the part of a normal Mormon while feeling inside, you know, I. Maybe I'm not Really a great Mormon, you know, because I, like you said, I had this young life where I just didn't have a lot of doctrinal knowledge. And in my adult life I've had this liberal approach to it, but there I was with my wife and my great looking kids and playing the part. So now it's almost like a more out in the open thing. I'm not in a typical situation and that's obvious to everybody that that's the case. It's not like we stood up and told people, told our whole ward all these details and everything. But you know, people, we've been in our ward now for three years and people have gotten the, have gotten the message to understand and you know, it's, there's no hiding it. I'm not, I'm not in a traditional situation and that's, that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] You know, I have to, I don't want to speak for you guys, but I have to say that once it was clear to family and friends in the ward that I had a non traditional LDS family, there was a huge burden that I felt lifted from my shoulders. Not because I wanted to get out of anything. I mean, I still personally. We still do scripture study, we still do family home evening, we still obey the commandments and go to church. But for some reason I just. A lot of that guilt and pressure got lifted. Even though I wasn't looking to stop obeying the commandments. I just didn't feel so horrible for not living up to all the things I felt like I should have been living up to. It's just like, well, we're never going to be that family, but we'll be what we can.

Laurie Gallagher [01:04:50] You know, there's this funny thing that happens when you become really aware of, of who you really are and you just own it and you live becomes. What's the word I'm looking for? There's just a peace there. There's a peace and an integration. For the first time you feel worthy and you feel whole. And that's the irony there. You try so hard to be worthy, to be whole, to do everything perfectly. And the minute you say, well, this is who I am right now, then all of a sudden you feel that intense peace come over you.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Yeah, that's ironic.

Laurie Gallagher [01:05:29] The other ironic thing is that as we've worked on this and I've given Dan all of this space and he's given me space to do our things, as he's given me more space to go off and study Buddhism and yoga, he's studying more. And as he given him complete support and space to go to church, I am happier there when I go. And I'm embracing the cultural things about I used to hate the Mormon culture. Now I'm just so grateful to get my hands in a pile of bread dough. And yeah, yeah, my aunts, I learned this all the way back centuries ago. I'm proud of my Mormon heritage, you know, and part of my fear was that someday somebody would hear a podcast like this or read a blog post and I'd get excommunicated, you know, and I realized that it doesn't matter. Or at times I thought maybe I should take my name off the list. Is it confusing to other people? But what I realized is it doesn't matter where my name is because part of me is just always going to be Mormon. It's in my blood. It is my culture. Can I take from that the things that still work, the things that are still really sweet to me and use those? And so it's come full circle for me and healed a lot of the pain that I felt from the lack of transparency within the church.

Part Three Introduction and Support Message

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E S K Y E pixton.com thank you.

Dan Gallagher [01:07:58] Though like the wonder the sun gone down.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 159

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. Let me turn to probably the biggest issue that we haven't tackled. It's very common for the children to become footballs in the oppositional game. That happens when there's a believer and a disbeliever. From the disbelievers perspective, it's like, I'm not going to subject my children to that guilt. I'm not going to subject my children to the lies and the deception. I'm not going to subject them to patriarchy. I'm not going to subject my girls to the way that the girls are devalued. I don't want my son serving a mission. You know, I just. Dan, you know, husband or believer, you go do what you want. But I am not going to stand for my kids to be, you know, for the lie to be perpetrated through them. You know, that's the disbelievers perspective. The believer's perspective is, look, you want to go screw up your life? Our kids are going to be faithful. They are going to go to seminary, they are going to go on missions, they are going to get married in the temple. This is good for them, this is wholesome for them. This is going to make them happy. Go mess up your own life. But I am bringing the kids with me and there is no negotiation about that. Did you guys ever then or do you ever now sympathize with either of those poles? And how do you keep the kids from becoming footballs in a very violent contact sport, so to speak?

Laurie Gallagher [00:02:05] You know, it can happen really easily. And I sympathize with both of those polls, both of them. I can see it from both sides. I don't want to be outside of my own child's temple wedding like a kid, you know, but what we both figured out is that we have to surrender. We have to surrender our own ideals of what the kids are and give them the best chance that they have at being happy. And one of the best chances they have at being happy is to see a model of two people so different who love each other and support each other no matter what, and that they can have that same freedom, that we will love them no matter what they choose, no matter what. And we'll teach them. You know, I think as the non believer, if my spouse were to say, and this would be a deal breaker for me, possibly if Dan were to say, I'm teaching them only about Church. I don't want you teaching them that crazy yoga stuff. They have to go on missions, this and that. That's not okay for me. These are my kids. That affects my relationship with my children, my ability to be honest with them. And that's not something I'm willing to negotiate on. But at the same point, I'm not going to take that away from Dan. He needs that just as well. And so we've come to this point with the kids. I'll let Dan talk, because I've talked a little bit, but where we try to answer it in both paradigms. So if the kids ask us about God, I'll give them. I'll say, well, the Mormons believe this, or I think dad believes this. And then I'll say, and people believe all sorts of things. I believe this. And then I'll say, what do you think? So they have this really clear idea. Hopefully, I've helped them with my beliefs. Maybe they're finding a connection with that. They have the freedom to choose. And how empowering is that for them to be able to choose?

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Well, that's one perspective. How empowering. There's another perspective, which is how confusing. It's like, you know, come on, these kids, their brains aren't fully developed yet. Literally, they're being confronted and bombarded in this, you know, worldly sphere with pornography and drugs and sex and alcohol and violence. The last thing they need is sort of this. Well, mom believes this and dad believes that, and other people believe the other, and you guys believe whatever you want to. Like, you know, even Dr. Laura, not that she's the highest authority to invoke, but there's lots of people who just say, forget whether what's true, forget what's literal. Pick a belief system, a single belief system. Be kind enough, be charitable enough to give them a single, consistent, clear belief system. And then, yeah, when they're 30 or when they're 25 even, yeah, then they can start experimenting once they've sort of made it through the minefield that is adolescence and early adulthood. But don't do them this disservice of this Unitarian Universalistic upbringing, because by not giving them something clear, you're really giving them nothing. You think you're giving them everything. You really think you're giving them everything, but really you're giving them nothing.

Laurie Gallagher [00:05:35] Well, there's two points to that. And the first one is that you have to be unified in your parenting. We have to have really clear trouble agreements between the two of us of what's okay, right? It's not okay for our children, our teenager, to go out drinking. It's not okay for him to get a D or an F. It's not okay for him to sass us back. It's not okay for them to be mean to other kids. You know, we encourage these things. I expect them to go to church with Dan. You know, that's something I support, and that's a given. But the other side of that too is that I think people who say you have to teach your kids this regimented viewpoint, it's better that they believe something than a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You cannot treat your children like idiots. They're not idiots. They start learning spirituality from the time they are tiny. They're tiny and they have emotions and they have feelings. And those children, I think, feel that they get closer to the divine than we do. And we can learn a lot from them. So don't discredit their ability to know God. Because I think truly, what happens to us as we give them, you know, this is the belief and there are three tiers of heaven and there's this and that. We actually unenlighten them. They come enlightened and we create a framework around that. You know, that is a disservice sometimes. Can we open them up? That Mormonism is a very valid path. It's really valid. I support your dad on that. You want to go on a mission, I support you on that. But we are all, both Dan and I are in agreement that they read some, that they know the true church history and they know all the problematic things so that they can make an educated choice. Our teenager is able to do that. Our 10 year old is really starting to understand nuance now. I don't think we should discredit the children.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Right. Right. Dan, how about you?

Raising Children in a Mixed-Faith Home

Dan Gallagher [00:07:57] The thing is that, you know, Laurie and I have a unified belief system in terms of the values that we have. You know, what might be different is the story in which we relate to those values.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] Right.

Dan Gallagher [00:08:16] This really occurred to me. One of my breaking moments when we were figuring in the counseling process is that one night I remember us talking about kind of, we went back to some of the basics about what we believe in God and the meaning of life. And it really hit me that Larry and I weren't that far apart in what we believed. What we had is we're different people who needed a different language to relate to it. But in terms of what our core values were, in terms of what we valued the most, it wasn't that different. And it wasn't that different through all this crap. Crap that we had been through and arguing and fighting about religion was that at the core of it, we weren't that different of people in terms of what was important to us and what was important to us for the kids. Honesty, integrity, accountability, kindness, love. These have been our values since the day we got married and they're our values today. That part of the contract was never shredded. You know, it's getting new language wrapped around it maybe, but it's there. And you can have a core, you can have that as a core belief system. I don't think all the window dressing that we put around our belief systems with religious theologies, you know, I don't think that's a recipe for family disaster if parents disagree on that window dressing. You know, I grew up in this family where I had a Mormon mother and a non member, non church going, smoking, drinking coffee, sucking father who were both really good people and who both had, you know, who instilled those values in me and in our family. That you're honest, that you act with integrity. And I wanted to give, I want my family to have the benefit I had in that my parents never, even after my dad converted and became a really strong, true believing Mormon, and he is today, I never had the pressure put on me by them that I had to believe a certain way. And I'm so grateful for that because I didn't feel like I had to go out on a mission. I chose to go. I knew they wanted me to go. I knew they'd be sad if I didn't, but I never feared that I'd be ostracized or, okay, you're forever a disappointment to me now. I knew I'd be loved and accepted, but I just chose to go. And I was able to choose how I viewed the church, how I took in these things. I was able to have that space for that and I'm going to provide that for my kids. You know, I want, I'd like them to have the Mormon experience I had and see if they can take the good things I was able to take, you know, but if they get to the, if they get to their, the end of their, you know, youth, you know, to their adult lives and you know, decide, you know, okay, the church is okay, but doesn't, doesn't work for me going forward. I'm not going to be upset or angry about that. I'm going to say, okay, I gave that a shot and they have to follow their own path and to be honest, we have three kids and they're three very different kids. I could really see all three of our kids taking some different paths because that's what's happened in my own family. I've got two siblings and my brother left the church when he left home at 18 and has never looked back. My sister is an extremely devout, active in everything believer. I fall somewhere in between them somehow. But, you know, we've taken our own paths, but we have. We're a family and we're together and, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, that system worked for me growing up. I didn't grow up to be a, you know, a mess of a person. I don't see any reason to break from that for my own, for my own family. And I'm lucky in the fact that Laurie has these very strong values that I don't see a need to panic because they're not voiced in the common Mormon language. But they're there. They're very much there. And we don't have, we don't really have a lot of disagreements. We don't, you know, she's supportive. Our oldest attends seminary now and she was very much supportive of that. I didn't have to convince her that she felt that, you know, he needs to understand, you know, the kids need to understand their religion that they're being raised with, especially if they're going to get to a point where they have to decide if they're going to go forward with it or not. And on a mission, I saw so many missionaries that didn't want to be out there. I've never at one point in my life felt to force my kids on a mission. I will not do that. They have to make the choice.

Laurie Gallagher [00:13:17] But dad makes those decisions easy, like the seminary decision, because he doesn't put, put an extra expectation on our son. We want him to go and learn and we leave it open ended for him to have his own experience. And that's all I want. We want our kids to be happy. It's pretty arrogant of us to say we know the way to be happy and you need to do what we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] But Laurie, I know I've already asked this, but the common reaction to the disbeliever is I have to pull my kids out of the cult. I mean, it's that severe. And I know that may sound shocking to some of my audience, but that is the reaction. It's like Jim Jones in Guyana. Town has my children.

Laurie Gallagher [00:14:06] The thing is,

John Dehlin [00:14:09] especially how you feel the sympathies you feel towards gay people, the feminist in you, how do you keep from feeling like the church is going to do violence to your children?

Laurie Gallagher [00:14:21] Because my spouse is supporting me when I tell them that it's wrong. So when I teach my kids that we talk about gay marriage, what was it? Oh, my daughter's five and she asked me just out of the blue, what is gay mom? What does gay mean? She'd heard it somewhere and I said, oh, it's when instead of having a boyfriend or a girlfriend, you have a boyfriend and a boyfriend or a girlfriend and a girlfriend or a woman wants to marry a woman, you know, and families are made of different things. And she goes, okay, now if my spouse didn't let me explain it that way and had a problem with me talking about it that way, then I would probably feel like it is a cult and my kids were going to get brainwashed. I would feel like if I didn't have the freedom to talk openly then I would worry that they were being indoctrinated. But if both spouses are saying are pretty open minded about that, it's not such a feeling. Now when it does feel painful is when I think about not being at my kid's wedding or those things. I also feel though that the kids are going to. They're either going to believe you because you're living it and they're going to see that it works or they're going to see that it's a divisive issue. So the fact that we figured out how to talk to the kids about this and that Dan is open minded enough to let me share with them what I believe is why it works and vice versa. You know, he can teach them about the gospel and I'm not going to come in later in the evening and say that stuff Ted taught you. Not really true. You know, so that's the key I think is to really respect each other and allow each other the idea to open them up and not everybody's okay with that.

Dan Gallagher [00:16:17] I'll add one thing here though too for the, you know, I can appreciate some concerns of a non believer because so much in the church is, you know, the church is not a universal experience from one community and city and town and war to the other. You know, so much depends on the kind of people you're around. Yeah, I had this epiphany when I was at BYU and here I was pretty newly off a mission and you know, consider myself a traditional believer in that. And it hit me that I said if I stay in Utah I'm not going to want to stay involved with the church. I had that epiphany one day. It was really weird because that sounds really bad. I'm not trying to put down Utah and put down people there and offend people. There was something about having the Mormon culture be so strong and pervasive that I knew would make me push away from it. I've ended up in the kind of communities that work for me that. But I understand that if, you know, depending on the war, so much in the church depends on the kind of people you're around. And we've had the good fortune, we've got incredible good fortune now that we're around. Really good, sharp, intelligent, fair minded people. Our ward is full of wonderful people and a lot of them are traditional Believers will disagree on certain things like gay marriage and that. But you know, they're good people who are well intentioned trying to do the good things. Not a cult at all. But if you were in a, I could understand if you were in a ward or a situation where, you know, there things were more harsh and extreme, people were more harsh and extreme and you just didn't feel that, you know, that sort of positive vibe there. I can understand there being a greater concern for having kids involved in it. I think you have to approach, you know, what we're adding here is not a blanket prescription for every situation everybody's in. Because I've heard situations from people where I think, yeah, maybe if I, even if I were in that situation, I'd limit the involvement with that bishop, that person. So, you know, what we're seeing here is we're, you know, you know, we're lucky in the fact that we have a really good situation. I think most wards in the church and most people I've experienced in the church are good people, are intentioned. I don't think it tries to people, it's, I don't, the cult thing doesn't work for me at all. But you know, obviously you have to, you know, you have to deal with your situation that's on the ground where you're at.

Laurie Gallagher [00:19:01] It is really individual from word to word. But ultimately you have to, you have to be able to tune out everybody else and pay attention to what your kids are learning and how they're growing. And it might be perfectly appropriate for a specific child to limit their indoctrination if they had a wild and crazy teacher or something. But you have to, my mom says monitor and adjust, right. Keep watching, keep paying attention and keep it's going to change. It's constantly going to shift and change how we relate. As long as we can put each other first and keep love at the center of it and have everybody's best intentions and remember that we're a team and we're all doing this together and if we can do it happily, all the more the better. Right?

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Right. So it occurs to me that as we've talked today, a huge secret to how you guys have been able to make it work is that you've met in the middle, that you've understood each other's perspective, you have sincere empathy for the other's point of view, and you're willing to both give, to accommodate, to meet the middle and to show respect for the other person's position. And I think that's crucial. Dan, I'm going to ask you a hard question. I kind of tried to ask Laurie a couple hard ones. There's a hard one I have for you, and it's not for you per se. It's more for the scenario that some people in your shoes are in a little bit of a different place than you. You acknowledged from the start that you weren't wrapped in a literalistic, orthodox, hardcore Mormon mindset in your youth and you felt good things for the church. But there is a lot of stuff you just kind of blew off or did not worry about. Most of the believers that I encounter that are in your shoes are not like you. They are fused with the idea of the prophet speaks for God. They are fused with the idea that if the prophet says that it is true. They are fused with the idea that they have to have a righteous priesthood holder in the home when it is the woman. And they're fused with the idea that their kids are going to have a righteous priesthood holder Father. They're fused with the idea of the celestial kingdom and eternal increase and whatever else they're fused with. And it's not just like this, oh, well, there's good in the church and I'm going to give my spouse the benefit of the doubt. It's more like, this is the one true church. This is the way. This is the way it has to be. My parents are stake presidents and mission presidents. Like, there is no middle ground here. You're either all in or you're all out. And so for the ones that are more practical, they might resonate with your story. But what can we do for the people who are completely fused with an orthodox, literalistic mindset? How do they. How can a. Do you have any idea how a marriage can Reach an accommodation. I mean, do you have to loosen the beliefs of the believer? Do you have to turn them into stage five Fowler Mormons and deliteralize? Or can you see any hope for a marriage when the believer is orthodox?

Dan Gallagher [00:22:27] I see hope because I believe. Am I quoting Beatles here? I believe in the power of love or. No, that's Huey Lewis. Sorry, that's terrible. Okay, so. Okay. To be serious. Yeah, I understand the difficulty because, you know, part of the. I was hesitant to do this with you at first because I thought, you know, how many believers out there are going to relate to my story? You know, the reason I thought, I thought I had some views to add is because even where I was, you know, the difficulty I went through at first dealing with this, you know, tells me that it's really hard. And I can appreciate that. I think what I'm not, and I'll admit I'm not totally familiar with all the details of the Fowler stages, but what I do think is that I think if you have a basis of true love for each other, I think there is always a possibility to get it worked out, because that is such a powerful, powerful thing. You have to look at what do you really love about your spouse? Did you really. You know, especially when you get to this point of a faith crisis where, like I said, it seems to be a lot of. In a lot of cases, you've been married years and you have kids and you've been through experiences. So when you look back at all of that, is everything you value in your spouse based on the church or your. Their belief in the church or what you thought their belief was, or are there things that you. Or have you truly learned to love that person in the ways that have nothing to do with the church, the ways that they're an individual and what they bring to the relationship? I think you have to start at that point. And if you're. I suppose theoretically, if you've only been married because you wanted to marry another Mormon and go through this and you've gone through these years and you don't have that love. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's just going to be too hard. But I think if you have that to start with, that's what you have to build on and you have to kind of dissect in an honest way how much of the reason you love your spouse is related to the church or anything to do with the church. Start with that. Because I really think that as most people will look at it, they'll find the things that they loved about their spouse that didn't have anything to do with it. And that's a starting point. And you don't have to give up your own beliefs or testimony to get to that. You just have to be honest and say, I love these things about her or him and they're not tied to Mormonism. The other part is look at yourself. I did have to look and say, what did I really believe? Because I think what happens is in the shock and panic of these situations, we kind of fall back to the training and the conditioning. The Mormon church is very powerful at conditioning. You know, even I felt it in my kind of loose relationship with it when this happened. I had that conditioning reared up inside. You have to get past that shock a little bit and examine yourself. What do you really believe? Do you really believe that what God wants is for you to break up your family and have your children lose a parent or end up in a shared custody because of this? Do you think that's the best thing eternally? What do you really believe? You have to, in fairness, be able to look at that because you have to appreciate. One thing I've gained is that I told you early on that I had kind of a prejudice for a while about the kind of typical disaffected believer that I saw. And it wasn't fair because. And it wasn't fair for me to even have that opinion then because I had known a lot of people who had lost their belief even up to that point. And as I've gotten to know more people have. There's wonderful people out there that lose their faith not because of something wrong they were doing. When I honestly looked at what happened with Laurie, she was becoming this happier person. What did I really have to complain about?

Advice for the Believing Spouse

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Right?

Dan Gallagher [00:27:09] And you have to. So maybe you don't want to read all the same books and you're fearful about losing everything. But in fairness, you should be willing to examine your beliefs because if any belief that you have that can't be at least self examined by you stand up to some inner scrutiny, maybe that's not worth having, or maybe that's not worth holding onto so dearly that you lose what you've built with your family. So maybe there are things that are worth re examining and listen to your spouse and understand what's gone on with them. But I think the most important thing to start with is the love that you have for that spouse. How much that love is really tied to the LDS story. How much is not. Be honest and try to build from there. I think it can be done, and I think it can be done without. I don't think you have to lose a testimony to make it work. But I do think that just when a spouse loses their own testimony, they've gone through some struggles too. You know, they probably started. I mean, I remember you telling. Hearing your story on your podcast, John, and you didn't, you know, you were trying to do your job as a seminary teacher when you came across all this information. And, you know, how could you not if I don't know how your wife reacted, but, you know, if I were in her shoe. Yeah, but, you know, when you. After you listen to it for a while and understand it, how can you not at least own. Honor your spouse trying to do something well, and things came up and you have to be able to at least gain an appreciation for what your spouse has gone through. You can be sympathetic to the point that it's not an easy thing they've gone through to get there. It doesn't mean you have to make the same path or come to the same choices, but you can empathize. The core thing, though, is I think maybe start at the beginning and try to understand each other. What did you really. What really ties you guys to the church individually? What do you really believe? And go from there. I think it can work. Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] I'm optimistic and I just want to agree with something you said. It's so easy for the believing spouse to look at the disbelieving spouse as weak and faithless and betraying and dishonest. And again, sometimes they do a little bit to foster that belief if they get too angry or if they start not spending their capital wisely and as we talked about earlier, asking for too much too soon in terms of accommodations on the disbeliever part. But. But I encourage believing spouses to view their disbelieving spouses in the way that I have experienced the most. And again, I have counseled with 500 to 1,000 disbelieving people now, and it is almost never that they were looking to sin. It is almost never that they were weak or didn't care. It is almost always that they were seeking truth. They were following their heart. They were listening to the spirit. They were seeking honor and integrity at all cost. It's one of the most courageous things you can possibly do to say, I'm willing to let go of my security. I'm willing to let go of my worldview. I'm willing to risk alienation from my spouse. I'm willing to risk losing my children. I'm willing to risk alienation from my family and friends because truth matters to me that much, and integrity and love and feeling good matters to me that much. And so I would challenge believing spouses, as hard as it may be, to try and view their disbelieving spouses from a standpoint of integrity and honor and respect, even though it seems impossible to do that. I think everyone's going to win if you take on that perspective, if it's realistic. Just supporting you there, Dan.

Dan Gallagher [00:31:42] Thanks,

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Laurie. I would love you to share real quick how you've chosen to talk to bishops and ward members. I think you have a really good perspective on how to break the news to the bishop, how to draw clear boundaries, how to talk to ward members. How do you make that transition with the ward members so that it's most healthy for everybody.

Navigating Church Membership and Community

Laurie Gallagher [00:32:15] That one's still in process a bit, and it's been a challenge to figure that out. At the beginning, I thought maybe I should remove my name from the records of the church so that there's no more confusion. But then I didn't want to do that. But we went in and we talked to the bishop and I told him where I was at with it. And I told him matter of factly that I'm here to explain to you that I don't want a calling. This is what I need. And I'm here to ask you to support my husband because he's going to be coming alone with the children. And I said I don't want to be a project. I don't want people calling me or trying to reconvert me. And he's really honored that he had some big questions for me. We talked for a little bit. But I try to be. I try to see things through his viewpoint that his intention is really to be loving and helpful. Same with everybody at church. They just want to help you be happier. And for the most part, I've had some friends within the church for a really long time who know me well and have kind of been through this process with me, and they love me no matter what, and they get it. A lot of them come to yoga with me now in the newer world, people don't know me as well and I just have had to let it go. You just have to do what feels right to you. At the moment, we're getting a few more questions about it. My visiting teachers would love to help. And it's hard to explain where you're at without. I don't want to insult anybody or their beliefs and they don't necessarily understand, and I don't know that they will understand when I say I don't believe. And I don't want to spill out my whole can of worms on somebody who's not ready to know about all the historical issues. So what I try and do is just live my life the way that feels right to me, regardless of what anybody thinks, and to do it as gracefully and as loving as I can. I love my friends at church. I'm still building those friendships in this new ordinance, and I love it. They're great people to be around. They have great values. They're fun and friendly and their kids are great. And I still want to be connected with that. So I'm open to that. You know, great example was Sunday. Sunday I was off to go to the Bay Area to see Adyashanti, and I need to wear comfortable pants to sit hear this satsang. So I'm in my jeans and my tank top, and I'm supposed to be taking my daughter after sacrament to meet Dan at church. And he texts me and he says that some of our friends from our old Word are here for a missionary homecoming. And I'm thinking, oh, I'd love to see them, but I'm in sheets and a tank top. Well, I just walked into the lobby. That's how I am. I don't feel bad about it. I got hugs from friends, and, yes, they look at me like, what's up? You know, they can still ask. I took my daughter in. I hugged my friends from the old ward, you know, and that was that. They, you know, it's kind of up to them how they're going to deal with it. And I think it's a little bit confusing because I do show up like that as I am, really, honestly, but I'm so friendly. I really, honestly enjoy them. I don't know if they quite understand where I'm at. I'm sure that's going to grow over time. I would love to get to know people in this ward well enough to share with them where I'm at, but it's been good.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Yeah. You know, it's funny. That story is just hilarious because there's a part of me that is just aghast imagining a woman walking into church on Sunday in a tank top and jeans. I mean, it's just the Mormon part of me that's just appalling. It's like the Twilight Zone. And then I think about, like, Jesus, and I'm like, he wouldn't care at all at all. He wouldn't bat an eye. He would love you more. And I'm like, that's a pretty big disparity.

Laurie Gallagher [00:36:36] Yeah.

Dan Gallagher [00:36:37] He would have loved to have to a tank top back where they lived, you know, that was pretty hot out there.

Laurie Gallagher [00:36:41] Well, and then of course, my visiting teacher asked, are you going to visit your sister today? And I said, not really. I've had people ask me at the. At the word party over the punch bowl, you know, how come I don't ever see you at church? And my answer is, just sometimes it's not my thing, you know, I mean, what are you gonna say? I'm not getting into that discussion over the punch bowl. So people send. They tend to sense your boundaries. If you know your boundaries and you're also committed to kindness, people can sense that.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. I guess I want to end. Well, I'm going to end asking Dan one quick last question. And Dan, you can answer it in one sentence or a few sentences or whatever, and this is going to totally sound out of left field, but, Dan, why stay like, you know, your wife's out. You're clearly not an orthodox literalistic believer in at least some senses. It's probably a little bit confusing. What keeps you in?

Dan Gallagher [00:37:56] Gosh, you know, believe it or not, there's days I ask that myself. I think, what. It's a complex answer, but I'll try to keep it short. You know, the Mormon Church is part of my family, and I don't have the pioneer ancestry that a lot of people do that Laurie does. But it's kind of been there as part of my whole life. And when I look back at my life's history with it, I don't see a lot of negative that's come to me from it. I do see a lot of positive. A lot of the positive influences that it's had on me and a lot of the people that have meant a lot to me who have been involved in it. And I guess I continue to have this, I guess, romanticized notion that I can draw the good from that and maybe not hold all these orthodox beliefs, but take the good from that and continue to kind of, you know, I'm kind of on a journey too, but I can take a part of that. I can continue to try to get the good, draw the good in that for my family. You know, there's a lot of things I like about it. And as I look around, you know, as an adult, you know, I'm out of the youth program, you know, so it's different when you're an adult. But. But I look around at the people that I associate with there. They're these great, wonderful people, so many of them. And I've gotten to know them well. And they're not people that I would know without that association because we're not in Utah. So it's not like my next door neighbors are my ward members. I wouldn't really know any of these people. And because I make my living, I commute in San Francisco every day. I work as a journalist. There's not a lot of Mormons in that business, I'll tell you that. There's, you know, I wouldn't have this opportunity to associate with these folks that I think are just really wonderful people that are really committed to, you know, being good parents. The guys that I know in my older squorum, they're really committed to being good fathers. And yeah, I can focus on the stuff that I. I think it's a good exercise for me too, because I can sit there and focus on what I have different, that maybe I'm not as literalistic in my beliefs, maybe I have more liberal political beliefs. And it's annoying to be assumed occasionally when people make a comment that all Mormons have to be conservative and that's annoying. And this Prop 8 nonsense. I could focus on the things that I have different and find things that are different. But when I focus on the things that, that draw me to them, that we have in common, the things we're trying to do in common, I feel this kinship and the strength and I feel that I still benefit from my associations. So that helps keep me involved. And I also have this just strange, still wonderful connection to church history a bit because I like to read history, period, you know, all kinds of history, because I think we learn from it, we learn from. And the mistake that we make in the Mormon Church is that, you know, because the Mormon Church spends so much effort to kind of like only put out a kind of polished, sanitized view of its history, Mormons lose the ability to really learn from that history. History should be crazy. It should be full of flawed, crazy people who did crazy things. Joseph Smith was a very remarkable person. He was crazy in a lot of ways, I think. I'm sorry, I hope that doesn't sound offensive to listeners, but I continue to be fascinated learning his story. He's made some colossal mistakes. He did some good things. He brought some great ideas to the world. He made some huge blunders. And I still feel this connection to this and I just wish that we were able to have a more broad discussion within the church about how we can learn from this. And maybe we'll get there at some point. I don't know. Maybe it won't be in my lifetime, I don't really know. But it's something that I still feel a connection with that even if I didn't attend anymore, you know, my ward on a weekly basis, I would, I would still kind of have this connection to, to that, to that history, to the story.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] Sure.

Dan Gallagher [00:42:58] You know, and it's, it's, you know, it's a part of, it's, it's a part of who I am, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Yeah. All right. All right, Laurie, I was going to ask this, but I feel impressed to ask you a similar question. Why rock the boat? Why leave?

Laurie Gallagher [00:43:18] I think that. I don't think we rock the boat. I think it's rocking and we're hanging on for the ride. I mean, when people leave, it's a feeling of being compelled. It's a feeling of looking for more. Truthfully, we're all looking for happiness. That's all we're looking for. And some of us need to look outside of our given paradigm. I don't think that there is a choice to what you believe and you certainly can't control that. This journey of digging deep and being willing to look at difficult things, it's a great way. If you can move through that fear, it's going to bring you to a huge sense of liberation, of peace and liberation. So if we can both come to that through our own way and land in a peaceful place, then we're doing all right.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] Right. Do you really believe that your marriage is stronger and deeper now than it's ever been?

Dan Gallagher [00:44:31] Oh, yeah.

Laurie Gallagher [00:44:32] I don't think that I really knew how to love before. I thought that he was an extension of me. Right. We thought the same things and we believed the same things, but that's not love. That's really, that's really self centeredness and expecting someone to be like you. It's really just kind of loving you, loving yourself.

Dan Gallagher [00:44:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Right, Right.

Laurie Gallagher [00:45:01] So to start to really understand who he is and to not try and control him or tell him what he should or shouldn't do and to actually recognize that Mormonism is a path for a lot of people, that's a great path. That's been really freeing for me as well. I guess I'm just really grateful that we, that we went through this and that we were able to move past that fear because now our lives I don't think either one of us live in a state of fear anymore. And I didn't realize before when I was in the Mormon belief system, how much fear I lived by from day to day and just working so hard to make it to the end when someday I might be happy. So I would say to those who are faithful, to those who are leaving to just keep looking for the things that leave you feeling peaceful and connected, that you can be happy right now, you can be happy today. And, you know, I'll quote the Beatles because they say, you know, all you need is love. All you need is love.

Spiritual Growth Outside Institutional Religion

John Dehlin [00:46:17] And Dan, do you feel like. Do you feel like you're more spiritual now or there's a depthness and a richness to your spirituality, even though it's not maybe perfectly traditional? Or do you feel just less spiritual, like the spirit's left you and you're sort of dwelling with a half portion?

Dan Gallagher [00:46:41] No, I don't. What changed in me is that I. I don't feel the need to have what I think is spiritual as solely defined by the LDS model of it. I don't think it has to be that way. And I don't think that you have to lose your testimony, whatever your testimony is, of the LDS theology to be able to own your own spirituality and say, hey, there's some things that are just mine that maybe don't line up. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not a spiritual person by nature. I'm just not. And I spent a lot of my life in the LDS Church kind of feeling deficient because I wasn't. Whereas now I've gotten to a point where I'm comfortable with who I am by nature. But I also feel like, you know, I have to have this responsibility to own what I do believe more fully than I did. I can't go on autopilot resting on the fact that, you know, my wife. I'll ride my wife's coattails through the Mormon system because I don't have that option anymore. I have to own what I believe. I have to know it. I have to be able to show it and articulate it and not laden it with extra baggage. That's not core to what's important to me. So, yeah, I do feel like a more spiritual person. I feel like I've taken. This whole experience has forced me to take more control of that and more control of what my belief is and more accountability rather than. One quick story. When we were at byu, I spent some time in the BYU library, because I was always in trouble by the blacks in the priesthood. Question. To make a long story short, after doing some research, I actually came to the conclusion even early on as a believer, that it was basically a racist decision back by. By Brigham Young. And, you know, it didn't. It didn't force me to like, lose my testimony that. But I did kind of stuff it because I thought, you know, I don't know how that works in a marriage, you know, and I'm in this Mormon marriage. And I didn't want to, like, try to unravel all that. So it was just kind of like, it was kind of there. And I'm kind of at the point where it's like, you know, I can be responsible for what I believe and what I don't believe and be okay with it, but it has to be mine. You know, it can't be me relying on her being a more spiritual person to drive our family. I have to be a part of it. You know, I have to step up to the plate.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Right, right. Very good. Okay. Well, this has been absolutely fabulous. I'm just so grateful. Your stories are inspirational. I think you are going to provide a model to many, many people. I mean, this ain't going away. Alternative forms of spirituality aren't going away. People leaving the church over. Church history is only accelerating. I mean, that's just reality. And so it's sort of either divorces are going to be rampant or everyone is going to be leaving the church, or people are going to figure out a way to deal in mixed faith marriages. And I want to believe that there's a place in the world for religion and that there's a way that a mixed faith couple can make it work. And I think you guys provide a wonderful model for that. So I just want to thank you. I want to leave. I hope you guys remember that I was going to ask you this, but I guess I'm going to put you on the spot, Laurie, because I'm going to ask you to bring us home. And I'll ask Dan the same question in a salvific way. But I want you to provide just some summative pieces of advice for the disbelieving spouse in how they can manage and navigate their disaffection in a way that is optimally healthy for both the marriage and for the children and for themselves. So, you know, give us five, ten highlight points that you would just want to leave us with, and then, Dan, I'm going to ask you to do the same thing. For the believing spouse.

Practical Tips for Mixed-Faith Couples

Laurie Gallagher [00:51:27] Oh, no pressure. It's so personal that everybody's story is so unique. So I can only share what worked for us. And that is that as the world drops out underneath you, as far as wondering where you are in the church and how to move forward when your spouse doesn't want to move with you is to just move slowly, to try to see it from their perspective and to decide what's really important to you. What do you need? Is it really important for you to change your lifestyle and experiment with things? And if so, how do you do that in a way that doesn't threaten your believing partner? Or is it more important that you are given the respect and freedom to speak to your children about your belief system and to teach them the problematic things of the church. Those are different things and you can't throw them all at your spouse at once. So moving thoughtfully and carefully and gently through the process. The other thing is to give is to ask for space, ask for support, ask for respect and give that. And I think a huge portion for me was that I found it imperative to stop worrying about what he should or shouldn't be doing, to stop judging him or worrying about him and to start looking at myself. Looking at myself and my behavior and my belief system has been the biggest thing that's brought me peace. Being willing to look at that and move through being afraid of what's underneath there. And with the kids, it's really important not to put them in the middle of it, to keep those discussions with your spouse in the background so that when you come forward with the kids, it's on a united front that you're clear about what you need and want. And I think it's super important for the non believing spouse. It's really important for them to be able to speak honestly with their children. So I would say to any believing spouse who says, I'm going to raise my kids and I want them to go on missions and you may not teach them these problematic things, that is absolutely unacceptable. You can't force belief. And both partners, both spouses, both parents need that freedom. They need that to have an honest, healthy relationship with their kids. So I would encourage that kind of space, allowing people, everybody in the family, the kids, the mom, the dad, everybody, the space to pursue their own spiritual relationship, whatever they deem as divine or the lack thereof, and to be respectful to each other.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Wonderful. Thank you. Alright, Dan, you're last.

Dan Gallagher [00:54:53] Okay, so I'm for believers, right?

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Yeah. But specifically, how can they show empathy and love and Support and do it in a way that's good for everybody involved.

Dan Gallagher [00:55:11] Sure. Well, like Laurie said, I think for both directions, respect is. Is key. Getting to a place where you can respect each other and respect why you're in those positions you can get to and you can get to without being untrue to your respective beliefs. We found that in our case. I think that's very important. I think what you need to do, what's really important is that is to give up fear. Because if your LDS theology, your personal theology is based on you're doing stuff because you're afraid of what will happen if you don't do it in the long term, that's not going to work well for your life. Whether it's for your personal life, your marriage, for your children. Fear doesn't inspire. It's not inspiring, it's a burnout. And so if that's the core of your LDS beliefs, I would ask to rethink them. You don't have to drop them, but to rethink. Is that really what Jesus was on this earth teaching? Is that the main idea he wanted? I don't think it is. You know, and I think there's great things that you can believe and your belief will be inspiring to your children and even to your. And I think it'll be even inspiring to a spouse who doesn't believe anymore if it's not based on fear. You know, if it's, you know, if people can look at you and see the benefits, the positive benefits that come to your life through your belief and, and you show that through your actions, through your positive relationship with the world, I think that's the best thing you can do. And that will be. And people will sense that you can't control people. You can't control other people's beliefs. You can't even control your kids beliefs. Your kids will grow up, they've got minds of their own. I learned that from day one that you can't have that control. So let go of the fear of what you think you can control, but you really can't, and try to embrace what's good and what brings positive benefits to your life by your belief. And realize that the whole message of the gospel is about love, is about bringing people together. And these things can work. These things can work. And the eternal question, I think, still works. That's been my practice, that's been my experience. And both sides need to bring a state of love and not a state of fear to the conversation. I think when you get to those points you can make some progress.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Outstanding. Well, I can't thank you guys enough for sharing with all of us your story. I think it's going to help not just this generation, but generations to come. Does that sound too bold?

Laurie Gallagher [00:58:34] Yes. You know, we're just two people with a story. There's hundreds of people out there. And I guess it's just nice to feel like we're not alone, that there's, there's more people going through this and finding their own solutions to it. Ultimately, you know, in the marriage, I think you just have to give them a reason to respect you.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Yep.

Laurie Gallagher [00:59:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Well, excellent. Well, thank you guys so much. I probably should give a shout out to faceseast. I'm pretty sure it's faceseast.org yeah, it is. And it's basically dedicated to marriages, you know, mixed faith marriages within the LDS Church. That's a great resource for people who are struggling. There's another resource called stay lds.com which can help people navigate this middle road. And for those of you who are interested, I've started a little forum on Mormon stories for those who are looking to work through these types of issues in privacy with others who are in a similar boat. So just Facebook me so that I know you're real and I'll give you information on how to join the forum. But I just want to. Oh, finally, for those of you who are near Salt Lake in August, I just wanted to let you guys know that I am holding, I guess a workshop at Sunstone Symposium. It's August 4th. On August 4th, Wednesday, August 4th, I'll be holding a full day workshop. The first, the first half is navigating a crisis of faith in or out of the church, sort of tips and tricks. And then the afternoon is going to be for couples and it is going to be navigating a marriage when one or both of you loses their testimony. So if any of you are interested, please let me know. Or be looking@the sunstonemagazine.com website for more details about that if you are interested. But Dana, Laurie Gallagher, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. You guys are wonderful people.

Laurie Gallagher [01:00:38] Thanks, John.

Dan Gallagher [01:00:39] Thanks for having us. John,

John Dehlin [01:00:43] thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your work bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E. S, K, Y, E. Pixton.com Thank you.

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