On June 11, 2011, members of the Mormon Stories community held their 2nd regional conference in Salt Lake City. In this keynote address entitled “Mormon Identity in the 21st Century: Claiming and Belonging”, professor and author Joanna Brooks explores a more expansive vision for Mormon identity.
Introduction by Anne McMullin Peffer.
Music by Holly Anderson Robbins.
I think people who have listened to this Joanna Brooks podcast are still in tears, putting themselves back together before they are able to write a comment. Joanna, your thoughts, your words which are very moving, very healing have captured my thoughts exactly and I would guess the thoughts of many others. You are indeed a Mormon, and I think your talk will help others to say proudly that they too are Mormon, owning in that part of themselves. Thank you for this podcast, dear Lady. (John, passing you a well-deserved cyber tissue : )
wow. i have seen some of the pics on FB. read some of the reviews of the weekend. i didn’t put two and two together—that we might all get to listen in, to be a part of IT. i am writing from Mexico City, unorthodoxly Mormon-Quaker. one of the first times i heard Joanna speak about Mormonism and her story, in TX in 2006, i was unmarried&pregnant and my orthodox mama was by my side, and miracles happened. first, i felt the deep tissue, long-buried parts of my heart–and my story–healing for the first time really. it was the same recognition and then the same “spirit of God like a fire is burning” feeling that i felt while listening to this podcast. and second, my mom and i talked about our mormon stories and the parts that we had avoided over the years. and in a startling unorthodox moment, tears, oh the mormon tears, her tears, my tears, my tears right now just remembering, she told me that her God would never love His children any less or any differently than a Mother loves her children and she believes with all her heart that we are an eternal family. period. there is still a lot of silence, a fair share of correlating all over each other, many of us walking lonely roads in my tremendous mormon family, but i feel so solidly like i am walking in new territory, much more like the crowded pioneer treks that populated my childhood imagination. THANK YOU Joanna, John and ALL of the OPEN PIONEERS for inviting us along!
So beautiful. Thanks for sharing, Jill.
MoSto conference in Mexico someday?
Jill,
You’re welcome to join us in the Lomas ward (the one English-speaking congregation) in Mexico City.
Best,
Josh
I was so, so moved by this. What a powerful clarion call. I always want to remember and emulate these words:
“If you identify as a Mormon, I hear you. I recognize you. I claim you. I claim you gay or straight, liberal or conservative; white, black, brown. Perfect, imperfect, active, less-active, post-, present, literal, non-literal, agnostic, atheistic; your story matters. You belong. We are Mormons. We may be uncorrelated, but we are still Mormons. We are open. We are open to each other; we are open to difference. We are open to the beautiful and the difficult facts of our Mormon history, and we are open to the potential of Mormonism in the 21st century. Let’s see what beauty we can make of our Mormon identity together.”
Thank you, @Joanna:disqus . You added so much to this conference, to this moment, this community. I feel so much love for you and our family community. So good to have a home with you all.
Amen, brother Jared. Amen.
If there was one podcast you could use to say, “This is what it means to be a Mormon,” this is the podcast!
I just finished listening to this podcast. I’m broken and hopeful. When I was excommunicated from the LDS church thirty years ago, it was as if I had been robbed of my faith, my beliefs, my family, and my friends. But I knew that I could not remain in the institutional church. It broke my heart, and left an empty place for me.
I don’t mean that my life has been unhappy. No, I’ve been blessed with a wonderful partner, and a full and wonderful life. But I missed the community. I missed the companionship. I missed my former wife and my children. In my living, I felt like I was on a different planet than they were on. We not only had different perspectives, we had different realities, different worlds.
So thirty years later a friend introduces me to Mormon Stories, and I listen to Joanna. I hear my own story, my own loss, and my own longing and belonging. It gives me great hope that I can reclaim my faith and my family. I’ve recently been reaching out to my children (all adults), and it’s like walking on eggshells. We talk about the weather when I really want to tell them that this old gay atheist ex-mo is Mormon to the core. I may not be their expectation of what Mormon is, but I’m part of the tribe, and always will be.
Joanna, thank you for the tears.
Amen, Happy.
Joanna, I enjoyed the talk and even the tears! I really wish I had been there, but your spirit radiated through time and space. Thank you for your enthusiasm and love.
However, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the “Mormon” self-identification label is helpful in understanding who we are. I too come from a long list of Mormon Pioneers on both sides of my family (check-out the name link above – a book about my John L. Blythe, my maternal great-great-grandfather). My paternal great-great-grandfather’s brother was with Joseph Smith just before he was killed and is mentioned in the D&C. My ancestors on both sides sacrificed a lot for Joseph, Brigham and the Church. I am related indirectly to Desdemona Fullmer who was one Joseph Smith’s wives. We share common disillusion with our association with the Church although it was a bit different as I am a bit older than you. I went to firesides in California listening to Paul Dunn tell us his baseball and war stories only to later learn that they were false. I had a gay cousin that lost his life to AIDS who would probably not have done so with more family and church support. I have another gay cousin that has been less than accepted when he came out which cost him almost as much. Working for a Church-owned business I found that most of the GAs are paid directly from those businesses. We all have our stories. I believe that trying to find ones identity in an organization that has caused much pain is misplaced, however. One person wiser than I put it this way:
“And no one pours new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the skins burst and the wine is spilled out and the skins are destroyed. Instead they put new wine into new wineskins and both are preserved.”
I wrote this for a couple of recent Mormon Matters podcasts, but I think it apropos here:
Your true identity is not a label or anything that is a mental form. You are bigger than that! Labels are OK if they are functionally defined precisely but only for communication and not for self-identification. One learning I like is in the “A New Earth, Awakening to Your Life’s Purpose” by Eckhart Tolle. He writes:
LETTING GO OF SELF-DEFINITIONS
As tribal cultures developed into the ancient civilizations, certain
functions began to be allotted to certain people: ruler, priest or priestess,
warrior, farmer, merchant, craftsman, laborer, and so on. A class system
developed. Your function, which in most cases you were born into,
determined your identity, determined who you were in the eyes of others, as
well as in your own eyes. Your function became a role, but it wasn’t
recognized as a role: It was who you were, or thought you were. Only rare
beings at the time, such as the Buddha or Jesus, saw the ultimate irrelevance
of caste or social class, recognized it as identification with form and saw that
such identification with the conditioned and the temporal obscured the light
of the unconditioned and eternal that shines in each human being.
In our contemporary world, the social structures are less rigid, less
clearly defined than they used to be. Although most people are, of course,
still conditioned by their environment, they are no longer automatically
assigned a function and with it an identity. in fact, in the modern world, more
and more people are confused as to where they fit in, what their purpose is,
and even who they are.
I usually congratulate people when they tell me, “I don’t know who I
am anymore.” Then they look perplexed and ask, “Are you saying it is a
good thing to be confused?” I ask them to investigate. What does it mean to
be confused? “I don’t know “ is not confusion. Confusion is: “I don’t know,
but I should know” or “I don’t know, but I need to know.” is it possible to let
go of the belief that you should or need to know who you are? In other
words, can you cease looking to conceptual definitions to give you a sense of
self? Can you cease looking to thought for an identity? When you let go of
the belief that you should or need to know who you are, what happens to
confusion? Suddenly it is gone. When you fully accept that you don’t know,
you actually enter a state of peace and clarity that is closer to who you truly
are than thought could ever be. Defining yourself through thought is limiting
yourself.
==================End of Quote==============
Joanna, I truly do appreciate you and all that you, John, Dan, Jared and others are doing to help those of us who have been on the outside trying to find people with common experiences. My question to you: Is it necessary? I see the Church as abusive in a number of different ways and maybe it is because my experiences and leaving the Church long before your experiences that I have found peace over time and not a great need to find or be part of another group even if we have common negative experiences. That being said, thanks all who made this conference possible. It is nice to know that one is not alone, but I am not sure if I want to see it institutionalized. I don’t know who I am and “Mormon” doesn’t fit!
Glen
LOVED this. Needed this. Thank you, Joanna.
John, you have chosen a rather public approach, do you plan to make public your own story with what is happening currently with Stake and Church leaders and yourself? Tks
Is there a transcript available?
There is a group working on transcripts through Facebook but I’m not sure when this particular one might be done. Perhaps John or one of the other moderators could give us an idea…
Sister Brooks’ line of thinking may work well with a Universalist point of view, but I seriously doubt that it flies except for those hangers on that want to keep their identity as a Mormon outside of the church. By definition they no longer belong to and no longer are Mormons except in the broadest of definitions. They have left the LDSs. I am sure that the third of the host of heaven along with their leader would like to have all that Heavenly Father has, but they have forfeited their inheritance through rebellion. Many fundamentalists with an LDS identity would consider themselves Mormons, but in reality they lie outside the stakes of the tent of the church. They have no inheritance in the kingdom.
Unity is the determiner for an inheritance. Unity is the fundamental law of heaven and I would say in God’s kingdom here on earth. One can argue until they are blue in the face, but like the prodigal son, they may be welcomed home, but they have lost their inheritance through rebellion. Some seem to keep clawing their way trying to come in through some back door. The truth is that until one is ready to make a change of heart and realize that unity through God’s living prophet and God’s Christ is the only way, they will continue to experience the heartbreak and disappointment of being outside of the stakes of Zion.
To place a false claim is really of no effect in God’s kingdom. I am glad that somehow Sister Brooks finds some rest of soul in hanging on, but I doubt that rebellion will ever bring an inheritance in the Church and in the Celestial Kingdom now or in the hereafter. Sad but true.
My heart and love go out to those caught in the conundrum of spiritual crisis that fall into a rebellious spirit, The buffetings of Satan cannot be an easy path for those that have tasted of God’s Spirit and love and then fight against His church under the guise of inclusion. Church membership has never been for everyone as much as we would like it to be. It is God’s commandments and rules that prevail not ours.
Your response illustrates why I don’t think there is anything worth celebrating in Mormonism or wanting to identify as a Mormon.
And yet here you are… still lurking around Mormonism’s fringes not willing to let it all go yourself. Interesting to me.
I sincerely hope that my interest in figuring out what people do when they don’t believe anymore isn’t that interesting to a judgmental Mormon like you. But if it is, I wonder why you are here. Doubting? Can’t shake those unanswerable questions? You really don’t believe either do you?
No
Odell, not doubting. It might
interest you that we are here for virtually the same reason, “Figuring out what people do when they
don’t believe anymore.” But even
more interesting to me is what caused them to discontinue believing. No one comes into the restored gospel
without some type of conversion with the exception of perhaps a few of those
born into the church that either were not given an opportunity to have a spiritual
experience or were liars from the beginning faking their way through life as a
LDS. The same could be said of
some converts that may be liars from the beginning. All should have had some type of spiritual experience or an
answer to prayers that validated their beliefs.
The
argument could be made that when mature in the gospel they determined that they
had been lied to by those of us that believe and the founders of the faith, but
how does that explain having had that spiritual experience to begin with? Why does Momonism evoke that kind of
experience if all of Mormonism is just a bunch of hooey? Why do people turn from the light that
they had?
You’ve
made a fine list of things that you no longer believe in, but I can make just
as valid of an argument for why one should believe in them. Yes, each and every one of them, but
without boring you with the details (if you would like I would be happy to
respond to them) I will say that I have had both academic and spiritual
confirmation that they are all tenets necessary for the restored church.
Judgmental? Hardly, just proclaiming the truth as I
understand it.
God
bless in what ever your life’s experience brings.
JCH, I am not here to find out why people no longer believe. I understand that part all too well having personally gone through that process over fives or six years ago. I am here trying to understand why a non-believer would still want to self-identify as “Mormon.” And originally, I was interested in helping others who transition out of Mormonism. That was a rough journey for me to make and I could have used a sympathetic ear and some sage advise. I think this pod cast community are more interested in being considered non-believing liberal Mormons, while I am proud to call myself a former Mormon or ex-Mormon, or post-Mormon or whatever the current term is. Comparing someone to being the same as the third of hosts ejected from heaven is pretty harsh remark to make.
Good luck in dealing with your hidden doubts. I find it hard to believe that a faithful Mormon would come and listen to thise pod casts if she or he were happy in their faith. And you came across as very judgment in your reply basically condemning those who don’t view spirituality the same exact way you do.
Sorry Odell to come across as looking judgmental. I was just quoting you in an earlier post that:
“I sincerely hope that my interest in figuring out “what people do when they don’t believe anymore” isn’t that interesting to a judgmental Mormon like you.”
Your words not mine.
I can appreciate the difficulty in leaving the church. For many give there all and then wind up with a faith crisis, especially generational LDS. The social aspect of leaving let alone spiritual, in my mind, would make it very difficult. I still believe that you along with anyone else that leaves the church is left to the buffetings of Satan. Tough way to find peace although some profess that they have found peace outside of the church.
Odell truth is where you find it. I go out of my way to study anything I can about Mormonism pro and con. I am very comfortable with my faith and convictions of the restored gospel. The spiritual experiences that I have had confirm everything I believe in. Faith precedes that miracle my friend and I have experienced many miracles in my life. I would be interested to know when and where your faith left and whether you have ever had any of these spiritual experiences yourself and if so, how could you even think of leaving if you have? That I would think is turning against the light that you were given isn’t it?
You are indeed being judgmental, JCH. You repeatedly insist that Joanna Brooks or others that are in a similar situation are “rebelling”. That’s extremely judgmental.
It should be obvious to even a casual observer that such people are holding on to as much Mormonism as they possibly can. To rebel would be to pretend they believe it when they don’t.
I always wondered, if I am being judgmental when I quote Jesus: “Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Glen,
For believing LDSs they would usually use the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible:
JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people.Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment.
I used to be a believing LDS and never quoted from it or used it as scripture as it was never authorized nor completed.
Now that I don’t believe in the Church, I have a copy.
That is quite funny and ironic I have to admit. The JST is included in the LDS version of the scriptures along with the Quad. But then you probably already knew that. Thanks for the light moment Glen I appreciate it.
Vin,
You said, “It should be obvious to even a casual observer that such people are holding on to as much Mormonism as they possibly can. To rebel would be to pretend they believe it when they don’t.No argument here.
What would you call it when the leaders of the church say that homosexual sex is a sin and someone in the church says….no it’s not and openly fights to have it allowed in the church? Is this person not rebelling and coming out in direct opposition to the church and it’s leadership? This is but one example of what I have heard here in Mormon Stories and the community that it supports. Am I wrong to think that it is not some form of rebellion?
Definition of REBELLION1
: opposition to one in authority or dominance2a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established governmentb : an instance of such defiance or resistance
JCH, I respect your opinion on this forum, but I have to disagree with some (or most) of your statements. First off, who are you to define what a Mormon is and isn’t? Do you hold the trademark definition on what a “Mormon” is? If so, I would love to hear the complete definition. Second, God alone will determine who has “an inheritance in his kingdom”–not you. Who are you to judge who is in and outside the “stakes of the tent of the Church”? Third, last time I checked, the fundamental law of heaven and the LDS Church is obedience, not unity (see D&C 130:20-21).
Finally, and this is the most important, let me tell you why it important to remember the first (fundamental) law of heaven. Not all of those that experience a spiritual crisis of faith ”fall into a rebellious spirit” nor will they experience “the buffetings of Satan.” Doubting is not a sin (don’t confuse it as such). Doubting also doesn’t automatically make someone disobedient. I highly doubt that the majority of the people on this forum are here to “fight against [the] Church.” Don’t confuse those that doubt with those that sin, hate, and fight against the Church. I agree with Odell; comparing doubters to the “third of the hosts of heaven” is a pretty offensive comment. These are the same people that fought, with you I might add, for the right to have agency (i.e., the freedom to choose for themselves) in the prexistence. I can tell you lack clarity and understanding on a very crucial doctrine of the gospel just by making such a comparison.
Complete definition of whether you are a mormon or not resides in the same questions that one is asked by a servant of God before entering the waters of baptism. This interview by one who has authority to act for God either qualifies or not entrance into the church of God and remains a bellwether as to whether you still are a member in good standing or not :
Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?
Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?
What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?
Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?
You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them? The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman?The law of tithing.The Word of Wisdom.The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members.
When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?(The above was quoted from the manual Preach My Gospel, page 206)If you answer yes to any of the questions entailed in point four, the missionary conducting the interview will refer you to the mission president to determine if you qualify for baptism.I am not a judge in Israel, but there are Priesthood holders in positions of authority that are.Next….What is the purpose of obedience? I think it is to have unity if I am not mistaken.Next….Thanks for clarifying doubt -vs- rebellion. I couldn’t agree more. If one does not have some doubt we would probably cease to grow. It’s a fine line though with some that cross the line and become open critics and are at war with those in authority and strive to drive people out of the church not unlike Odell who has through his own words lost faith and no longer wants to be part of the church. At what point does one become a “law unto themselves”?D&C 88:33-35 33For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. 34And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same. 35That which abreaketh a law, and babideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself,…It seems to me that many presenters in Mormon stories and many of the people that comment on them have become a law unto themselves. They no longer want to be governed by any authority. They no longer want to conform through obedience and unity in the church. That’s all I am saying. Wouldn’t you say that this is at least the appearance? I look forward to your response.
Complete definition of whether you are a mormon or not resides in the same questions that one is asked by a servant of God before entering the waters of baptism. This interview by one who has authority to act for God either qualifies or not entrance into the church of God and remains a bellwether as to whether you still are a member in good standing or not :
Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?
Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?
What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?
Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?
You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them? The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman?The law of tithing.The Word of Wisdom.The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members.
When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?(The above was quoted from the manual Preach My Gospel, page 206)If you answer yes to any of the questions entailed in point four, the missionary conducting the interview will refer you to the mission president to determine if you qualify for baptism.I am not a judge in Israel, but there are Priesthood holders in positions of authority that are.Next….What is the purpose of obedience? I think it is to have unity if I am not mistaken.Next….Thanks for clarifying doubt -vs- rebellion. I couldn’t agree more. If one does not have some doubt we would probably cease to grow. It’s a fine line though with some that cross the line and become open critics and are at war with those in authority and strive to drive people out of the church not unlike Odell who has through his own words lost faith and no longer wants to be part of the church. At what point does one become a “law unto themselves”?D&C 88:33-35 33For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. 34And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same. 35That which abreaketh a law, and babideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself,…It seems to me that many presenters in Mormon stories and many of the people that comment on them have become a law unto themselves. They no longer want to be governed by any authority. They no longer want to conform through obedience and unity in the church. That’s all I am saying. Wouldn’t you say that this is at least the appearance? I look forward to your response.
JCH, I think you’re missing the broader point of this conference. There is something more to being a Mormon than getting an A+ on a baptismal interview. There is more to being a Mormon than ”aceing” a temple recommend interview. If I were to leave the Church today and completely resign my membership, I would still feel and consider myself Mormon. It will always be a part of me. It was how I was raised, and it’s my heritage. That’s my point. And you’re right, you are not a judge in Israel, and neither am I, so I’m not going to judge how obedient or unified other members (or ex-members) of the Church are. If they want to call themselves Mormons, then more power to ‘em.
I will say this though. Listening to the talks in this conference, I definitely see a group of people who have agreed to “take upon them the name of Christ”–regardless of whether they still have their membership or not. I think that is the most important part.
Thisiscrazy28,
No I got the jest of the conference. By the way, I loved Sister Brooks’ and Sister Pearson’s passion in their presentations. My question is simply, at what point does disagreement become open rebellion and one not be recognized as a LDS? According to Sister Brooks’ assessment if I understand her right is that all I have to do is want to be identified with mormnism or even if I don’t and have had exposure in the past with Mormonism, I am one. Which begs the question in my mind at least, when do you become unrecognizable and to use the word of many at the conference “uncorrelated” or no longer united with the LDSs? In my mind, at some place there has to be some kind of unity to be part of the LDS church. I would suggest if you are in the church and not in rebellion against the church that you are. If you are in open rebellion than even if your membership has not been challenged, maybe not. I think the church is pretty unique in that there is qualification for membership in the church as well, I might say, that same uniqueness in needing to qualify for God’s kingdom. Those that want to buck that authority stand on thin ice in my opinion.
I know in Judaism for instance….eh…once a Jew always a Jew. But does that apply to the restored gospel of J.C.? I am not so sure at least to my understanding of what the scriptures say and what the brethren have said.
Look at the children of Israel when there was a dispute and some had the appearance of rebellion by making a huge altar for all to see.
Joshua 22:10-34 What kind of altar is Mormon Stories? I believe that it is still developing, but…
22The Lord aGod of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)
23That we have built us an altar to turn from following theLord, or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering, or if to offer peace offerings thereon, let the Lord himself require it; 24And if we have not rather done it for fear of this thing, saying, In time to come your children might speak unto our children, saying, What have ye to do with the Lord God of Israel?
Are the people at this conference willing to sit down with the brethren and offer a sacrifice on an altar that is not a symbol of rebellion? If not I would say that they are no longer Mormons. They fight against the Lord and His church .
What do you think?
What do I think? I think you’re wrong. Let me tell you why. You asked a simple question: “My question is simply, at what point does disagreement become open rebellion and one not be recognized as a LDS?” Here’s the simple answer for a devout member such as yourself: When that person is excommunicated by the Church. If the LDS Church believes (as you apparently do) that Joanna Brooks, John Dehlin, or Carol Lynn Pearson were in open rebellion or “fight[ing] against the Lord and His Church,” then they would have been excommunicated. Since they haven’t been, they, and all of the Mormon Stories community, can obviously continue calling themselves whatever they want.
I think we can agree on that with one exception. Usually not always, but usually when someone earns a disciplinary council for doctrinal issues, that person apostatizes long before the council is held. In other words the brethren are very patient in those situations. At least that has been my experience. I live in Colorado City, AZ, we have a few of those doctrinal issues down here.
I find this fascinating. You obviously know a lot about the Church. It would be interesting to have a face to face discussion with you. It’s difficult to do here. It it is safe to say though that many, many faithful, knowledgeable members of the Church, in leadership or not would have strong disagreements with you on many points.
But there aspects of this that, I think, are pretty straightforward.
First, ‘Mormon’ is an informal title and it not officially linked with being a member of Church .
Second, I am free to self-identify as a member of the Church as long I am on the rolls of the Church, regardless of what I believe or whether ‘I’m united with the Saints’. As long as I am on those rolls, and no one can remove me without me requesting it, except in the case of excommunication, I am a member of the Church. I still fall under the stewardship of my local unit and they are still responsible for my welfare and should be providing me with the services such as Home Teaching that are part of their responsibilities, even though that often doesn’t happen even if one is very active. That’s what the handbook says.
Third, as far as my standing in the institutional Church goes, whether I am in good standing, on probation, or disfellowshipped or excommunicated is strictly between me and the priesthood leaders who have stewardship over me.
It’s not for anyone else to define or judge. Unless I am excommunicated, I have full access to the companionship of the Holy Ghost to the degree that I live worthily. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling before Him and Him alone. I must live by the rules of the institutional Church of course, but in everything else it between me and the Lord. People observing me are free to their opinions about the path I take to find my way to my place in eternity, but it’s my path and He is the only judge. That doesn’t mean that I can do it alone. I can’t. I have to learn how to practice the Gospel in all it’s aspects, but how I understand the Gospel and apply it in my life is for me to judge in consultation with the Lord. No one has the right to interfere with that, unless I break the rules of the institutional Church.
Fourth, as far as the use of the informal term Mormon goes, it can, in my opinion, be defined in many different ways. For example, regardless of my standing as a member, I would most likely self-identify as a Mormon because both sides of my family are members of the Church all the way back to the beginning and were involved in nearly all the major events of Mormon history. My great, great, … great grandfather was baptized by Sidney Rigdon. He lived in Nauvoo when Joseph Smith was killed. He had four wives and he is my great, great … great grandfather on my mother’s side and my father’s side through different wives. It’s my heritage. It’s part of what defines me. It’s part of who I am. No one, even in authority in the Church has the authority to tell me how I can use that term.
And as another example, from my dreadful days of living in Utah, I know there are countless ‘cultural’ Mormons who don’t believe anything sincerely and do nothing but go through the motions that still call themselves Mormons.
Fifth, one can clearly have a broad range of opinions on a great many things and be an active, faithful participating member, in good standing. No one is qualified to determine what their standing is before the Lord.
As a clear personal example, I just received a new temple recommend. I told my branch president
and the counselor in the stake presidency that I was answering the
questions honestly with the disclaimer that by answering, I was exercising my faith in those
things, not because I knew them, or even believed them yet but I was
working on it. I was, in fact at the point where I was
putting the entire thing to the test. They accepted that without hesitation
as being sufficient to quality for my recommend. Immediately after that, much to my surprise the Stake President extended the call tof Elder’s Quorum President in my small branch in Europe. He only wanted to know two things. Did I have a temple recommend and was I worthy. I answered yes, but I felt that I needed to go further. So we had a long talk. I was very clear with him that I did not have entirely orthodox or literal beliefs and that I had many doubts and questions and that I have not worked out. I told him that I believe there is a large gap between what is taught, what is believed and many of the facts of history. I said that I thought there were some these could not be reconciled and that the only way to accept them was on blind faith in the face of contradictory evidence. I told him that I had had a serious crisis of faith in the previous months and had almost turned to atheism. I made it clear, that I was, in effect an ‘uncorrelated Mormon’ but that I was working to develop my faith. That was considered by my him, who has the sole authority and the stewardship over me in that calling, to be enough to qualify me for the job.
Clearly, not all leaders would be so ‘liberal’.
Now I believe that I am worthy. I believe that I am in harmony with the Lord at this point in my life and that I am doing my best to improve. I believe that I can carry out my duties in my calling with integrity and do a good job. And my leaders confirm that I am doing a good job.
I would say that a lot of the people in this community fall into my category or similar.
But, If you were one of leaders, I question whether I would be in the calling that I am. Or have a temple recommend.
If you have issues with that, if it were appropriate, which it is not, I would give you their contact information to you so that you could discuss it with them. I also know of people who are in leadership positions who do not live up to your standards, but who have been vetted by those who have stewardship over them.
All that being said, as I said above, I do have serious concerns on issues where I have found no satisfactory resolution from any source. Not FAIR, not the Maxwell Institute, not any other knowledgeable Church member that I have been able to locate.
Without adequate answers to these issues, in my opinion, it is *impossible* to believe in many aspects of the Church literally. Some these issues are foundational. Some of us who want to remain Mormon *and* be members of the Church have had to courageously grapple with these issues and find a way to deal with them. Some leave. Some are forced to take a ‘liberal’ approach as a result, or in some other way reconcile the irreconcilable. Some exercize blind faith despite the facts, but my experience is that there are very few of these. Once you are exposed to some of these facts, the dominoes began to fall and there’s no way back. You can’t un-know them.
And this is only going to increase, especially with the young technologically literate. All you have to do is type Mormon into Google and it’s all there for anyone to see.
I really hope you, or someone, does have answers for these issues.
In fact this was the single
biggest issue discussed at a recent leadership meeting I attended. Members are asking questions right and left about these issues and no
one knows how to deal with it.
The
Church is not forthcoming with them.
It would help me and many others to find a lot more peace of mind in our beliefs and it would save a lot of people from leavi
So, the bottom line is, if you have answers for these issues then, by all means, let’s talk.
If you don’t then I don’t see that you have a basis for judging what is orthodox, what is liberal, who is a Mormon and who is not.
Regardless, in my opinion, you have no basis of any kind for establishing standards of judgment of any kind beyond your own stewardship.
If you disagree I suggest that you take it up with those who have stewardship over you.
Jonbill,
First, I certainly do not consider myself to be an authority on anything. Meeting issues in the church head-on is my approach rather than sweeping them under the rug. Perhaps you missed the upshot of my question:My question is simply, at what point does disagreement become open rebellion and one not be recognized as a LDS?It sounds to me like you are working and doing your best with the understanding that Heavenly Father has provided for you or for what your capabilities of understanding have merited you. You certainly are not fighting against the church, in my opinion, based on what you have shared. So, how would you answer my question? Especially now that you are in authority in your Elders Quorum?To respond to your points:First – I don’t disagree with you. Hence, the term “Jack-Mormon” and lots of other derivatives.Second – No problems here. I hope as Elders Quorum President that if you feel the need to have Home Teachers that you assign yourself (through your Bishop) one that will do the job. I’m trying to be funny here! (-;Third – Totally agree with you. I hope that I have not insinuated anything lessFourth – I don’t believe that heritage makes you a Mormon. It’s more what you do with that heritage as in staying true to the faith that matters in my mind. However, it makes you at least a person with a Mormon heritage. By the way, a bunch of my cousins and siblings sat down with our aged Grandfather, a Patriarch and faithful LDS all his days that spent most of his life in Utah and asked him this question, “G’Pa if there was any advice that you could give us to help us in this day and age, what would it be.” He responded, “GET OUT OF UTAH!” Now why do you think of all things he could have said that getting out of Utah was so important? As I heeded his advice I found out. I imagine that you have found out too.Fifth – You have no idea how pleased I was to here you say that you were honest in your temple recommend interview. You have my utmost respect dear brother. I just renewed my recommend. I never answer all encompassing questions without asking my Priesthood leader what his understanding of those questions are. When asked, “Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?” (I live the in home-base of the largest FLDS polygamous sect in the US. I affiliate everyday with them) I ask my Bishop & Stake President what their understanding of “Affiliate” is. If it matches mine I feel like I can answer that I do not affiliate with them and feel honest in saying so. They are the judge in Israel. If it is wrong in the Lord’s eyes they will be held accountable, not me.I agree that the brethren and the church as a whole are grappling with the information age. I disagree with you that the church is not forthcoming. The information is and has been available to all that have an interest and have wanted to slog through it. In this day and age it has been a lot easier. I think the larger problem has been that the church or brethren are inundated with the enormity of the task of all the historical stuff that has been in the possession of the church and other places. I feel confident there are satisfactory answers to all of our historical and doctrinal questions. Unfortunately too many members give up seeking and forget what brought them into the faith to begin with. I do not fault the brethren for their emphasis in putting on the best face of the church to the members and the public. I do not consider this to be not forthcoming.This is getting way to lengthy, but I would love to speak to you in whatever forum you feel comfortable with. Let me know how and where by responding to this post.
I do think that we agree on many things and I’m glad about that. There are things that I don’t agree with, of course. For example, when I say that the Church is not forthcoming about certain things, I do not mean that it is dishonest or hiding things. I mean that it only goes part way in explaining things, at least I hope that’s the reason. I agree that it should put up a good face (though I’m somewhat uncomfortable with the slick, business-like, PR polished image) But, It gives the impression that maybe there aren’t really answers and I don’t agree with you on this point. I don’t think there are adequate answers for many things. I often ask ‘If such and such a person knew what I know, would they still believe?’ My wife assures me that somebody, somewhere knows about these issues and has the answers, but I haven’t found them. They are not coming from the Church through any official outlet. If there are answers then why be silent? Regarding, Joseph Smith, for example, the Joseph Smith Papers Project is a good start. If the Church were to pull the plug on that project, I and many others would have serious problems over it. But the Church certainly has the resources to do more. If there are answers, then why isn’t it doing more about other problematic issues and leaving those of us who are really struggling hanging? Is this intended to be a test of faith? Do we really need to be left so much in the dark that some of us are having to stretch faith to the breaking point? No one is more willing to commit and work and sacrifice and serve than I am but It’s a constant struggle for me.
I need to be able to reconcile these things in a way that I can live and serve with integrity with conflict sapping my energy. Everyone has stress limits and exercising faith has costs and people have no choice but to budget that cost. It’s a material world and most of us have to make a living. I can’t keep my balance if I’m required to exercise faith to such an extent that it’s net cost is more than I can afford. So if I have to ‘liberalize’ my beliefs, by, for example, letting up on believing that the Book of Mormon is authentic history in order to reduce the cost then I might have to do that. But that may be just knocking over the first domino and at some point it becomes unmanageable. It’s a very difficult balancing act. There are a couple of reasons why I even try but I won’t go into that here. Sometimes I would just like to blow it all off. But there are reasons why I can’t do that.
Now, I’m not criticizing the Brethren. I’m with John Dehlin that this has got to be the hardest job in the world. Yet a very conservative leader might think that if I’m discussing my issues in public that I’m promoting an unorthodox position. They might want to talk to me about that. That might even be grounds for discipline in the minds of some leaders. Fortunately, it’s not for mine. I like what you have said about how you handle interviews. I’ll take that to heart. But I’m not even talking about the distortions of enemies of the Church. I long ago had to develop the critical thinking skills to sift through that. I try to go to the primary sources for the facts and derive my own conclusions. And there are things that don’t add up and there are not adequate explanations for them. The only apologetic resources that even try to address these issues are the Maxwell Institute and FAIR and their answers are not adequate on many points and are often even embarrassing. There is a laundry list of things that don’t add up and I, along with many others would love clarification, if there is any.
If you listen to Richard Bushman’s podcasts on this site for example, toward the end he explains that he ‘chooses’ to live in a world where prophets talk to man and that he looks for goodness now rather than truth. I have found that that is an invaluable help, but I still stumble and fall back to asking my question which is symbolic of many of the issues: ‘Where are the horses?’
The plan of salvation is a beautiful thing and exaltation, is, in principle, worth any amount of work or sacrifice. I’m highly motivated to solve these conflicts and to help other do the same. My wife is just able to believe and not question. My mind has never worked like that. I’m a scientist by nature. On the other hand, I have a pretty high tolerance for ambiguity and I deliberately make an effort to keep open questions open. I do everything I can to balance all of this and it is still a strain. My brother is much like me in that regard and finally left the Church over similar issues. I really don’t want to lose the battle. But I, like many others are not finding the answers.
So, that’s as far as I want to go in public. I would like to talk to you. I’ll think about it and see how we can arrange that. It’s difficult to find a way to transition from the anonymity of a public forum like this to something private. I don’t want to public post my email address, for example.
Hmmmm….. Horses! I thought you were going to give me a tough one. Something other than FAIR or the Maxwell Institute offer. Okay, I’ll give it my best shot.
First I do know that Nephi road a horse because I know what the horses name was. ”Untoyou” That’s right “Untoyou. Text proof. Have you not read where Nephi says, and I quote, “Wo, Wo, Wo, Untoyou”???
Now for the rest of the story. On the journey across the ocean the group ran into the “Bermuda Triangle” (by the way, that was one heck of a storm in the crossing) altering the space time continuum. They lived on about 500 square miles somewhere around Palmyra, NY undetected from the other inhabitants of the area. Through unrighteousness they were gradually exposed to the other inhabitants but only to see their remains and eventually they engaged the Mulekites who were caught in the same type of storm around the Bermuda Triangle. Then when the last prophet dies all of the evidence of their existence is swallowed up or taken back into the anomaly of the “Bermuda Triangle” and found in a cave that disappears except to spiritual eyes.
Well what do you think? I know, sounds better than some of the stuff you read at FAIR or the Maxwell Institute. For the most part though I think they do a pretty good job of LDS apologetics. Sometimes I think our brothers and sisters in the church try too hard to explain some things that are currently unexplainable.
Now that I have lost all credibility, I think you are safe in following Bushman’s lead in following the good. If it is true that we are going to be judged by how we treat our fellow man, then I cannot think of a better place to do it than in the church following and doing the good for the living and the dead while looking forward to the day when all truth will be circumscribed into one great whole. For me, I have a great conviction that no one comes into this church without some kind of answer to prayer and spiritual manifestation and that it is what we purport it to be. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I have never understood how returned missionaries can leave the church after serving two years or eighteen months of their lives watching people that they have never met before change for the good by getting answers to prayers. Oh well…. I guess according to Sister Brooks it takes all kinds and they can all call themselves Mormons.
Very thoughtful, Jon. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks John. I wish that I had prefaced my comments the same way. Jonbill’s comments were “Very Thoughtful” and I was rather flippant to begin with.
Why is it important to be considered or labeled a “Mormon,” correlated, orthodox or otherwise? I find no use in it anymore in my life. My heritage is Mormonism, but I am NOT a Mormon.
If one does not believe in the literalness of the First Vision;
If one believes the entirety of the Book of Mormon is fictional 19th century writing;
If one does not believe that John the Baptist, or Peter, James and John ever gave any powers or authority to Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery;
If one believes that Joseph Smith did not receive a single authentic revelation;
If one believes that Smith and his successors spoke in the voice of deity only to manipulate followers;
If one believes that there is no New and Everlasting Covenant and Nauvoo era temple ordinances were not only highly Masonic but also a reason to keep polygamy secret;
If one believes that the LDS church was a racist church for its exclusion of blacks from the priesthood and continues as a racist institution for not apologizing to blacks and for not giving significant leadership position to blacks;
If one believes that the LDS church is a highly sexist organization which deprives women of equal partnership; and
If one believes that the LDS church is bigoted by assisting in furthering anti-gay propaganda, legislation, and misinformation;
Then why “reclaim Mormonism?”
I am ashamed of having been Mormon. I am bewildered by my ancestors’ motives. I do not have a heritage to celebrate. Those who cling to Mormonism as a self-identifier must have had a different experience than me.
Mormonism for me, is only worth celebrating of the was a First Vision, if temple marriage was real; if there was a restoration of heavenly power and knowledge. If not, Mormonism is no different than Scientology.
I would never fight to belong to a group who despises me, hates me and views me as a cancer.
So for those who view themselves as “uncorrelated Mormons,” I ask: “Why is it so important to you be considered Mormon?
Is Mormonism worth saving, and if it is, what is it to you?
If you really believe this, why even bother to post? Interesting to me.
JCH thanks for helping to point out who belongs on here and who doesn’t.
You add absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Sorry that I disappointed you. I will try harder in the future to add something of interest to you.
Odell, one of the primary tenets of this group is that we are not here to “reclaim” the Church, “save” the Church, or create a new Church. This is a just a group of very diverse people who want some sort of forum and support. It’s also about raising awareness.
I agree with JCH, your posts are very paradoxical. You no longer want to identify as a Mormon, yet here you are, on a Mormon-related forum, passionately commenting on Mormonism. I would encourage you to listen to the first part of this conference. In Part One, Carol Lynn Pearson quoted Carl Jung’s idea of coming to terms with your ancestral religion. Jung felt that the psyche is weakened by not making peace with one’s ancestral religion. I’ll spare you a full Jungian analysis, but I will state that you commenting on this post is one of the ways that you are coming to terms with your heritage (much like the attendees of this conference are coming to terms with their heritage). “Coming to terms” means different paths for different people. Some will stay in the Church, some will leave the Church, and some will find other unique and individual paths. I respect your path and wish you the best of luck on your journey.
I listened to the pod cast at the request of someone associated with Mormon Stories. I am asking my above question in an attempt to understand others who are similar to me but who still need to be labeled Mormon or who want to be included in the Mormon tent.
I am quite content in being an ex-Mormon. I enjoy listening to some of the pod casts because it helps me understand my journey away from Mormonism. I find myself less involved every day with my Mormon past.
I enjoy learning about human nature.
I would still like an answer of why people who no longer believe in unique LDS claims and tenets still want to be considered as Mormons?
Odell, I can’t speak for the people who have your exact beliefs, but I will speak for myself. First off, I do share some of your disbelief (though I do not share all of your disbelief). Hell, I’m not sure I even know what “belief” is anymore (and mine is continually evolving). I question many of Joseph Smith’s claims as well as his intentions. I see many of the dark parts of our history that you mention: truth claims, polygamy, racism, sexism, etc. I also see a Church that has continued to evolve and change over the course of 170 years (for good and bad, but mostly good). While the Church has had many suspect leaders and members, they have also had millions of amazing members and leaders. That is the heritage that I am proud of–the members and leaders behind the scenes. I’m proud of the pioneers who faced such great persecution because they truly believed in the teachings of the Church (many of them beautiful teachings) and the leaders and members that helped to raise me in the Church.
I respect those that can entirely walk away from their Mormon heritage: to never speak of it, to not teach their kids about it, and even to fight against it. However, I’m just not one of those people. I’m very proud of my Mormon past and heritage. I still want to attend Church with my family because of the great organization that it is today. I love the auxilliaries of the Church. I love to listen to General Conference. I even love the Priesthood (especially as it relates to the family). I’ve weighed the pros and cons of raising my children in and out of the Church, and I have decided, for myself, that raising them in the Church is the right choice for me. Does that mean I will teach them things that I don’t believe in? Definitely not. I plan on being very honest with my children about the flaws and checkered past of the Church; however, I also want them to see (and benefit from) the good that is in the Church.
I don’t see how I could walk away from being a Mormon. I’m a multigenerational Mormon. Even if I left the Church I would still be a Mormon. The best comparison is, although imperfect because we are not an ethnic group, is that I am a Mormon like a Jew is a Jew. I can’ un-Mormon myself. I would have to walk away from six generations of ancestors, everything they did, which was mostly positive, and how it has shaped my life and me.
This is beautiful. I cried so hard my contact popped out! Thanks Joanna.
The line that stuck with me the most (besides the one Jared posted above) was when Joanna said, “Mormon identity is…most importantly, the way you wake up every day feeling responsible to make sense of it.” It’s literally what I think about the most during my free time. It’s why everyone’s stories are so fascinating and important. It’s what John has been talking about in every podcast. That was very well said.
I don’t believe in the purpose or direction of the club.
I don’t believe in doing what the club does, nor do I accept club leadership decisions.I don’t believe that the club is of use to me or anyone else.
I think the club bylaws are not for me.
I think that the members of the club are (silly/wrong/awful/not as enlightened as I am).
I don’t want to participate in the club, or pay club dues.
But I *really* want to put that I’m a member of the club on my resume and business cards, and tell my neighbors that I’m a member.
and (stomp) *YOU CAN’T MAKE ME STOP* because I claim it as my own!
¿ ((O.o)) ?
Hey N.,
Mormonism isnt just a club. It is a people, a culture, a heritage and something that is so interwoven with your life that you cant just leave it like some bunny breeders association. Its a part of you and a defining factor to your identity.
Henning
Oh my goodness, this talk was abolutely beautiful in its clarity and compassion. It was difficult to maintain composure hearing Joanna talk about singing ‘Come Come Ye Saints’ to her babies. The talks from this conference from both Joanna and Carol Lynn have given me a small measure of hope that I too might find my own place in the Mormonism tent, but not have to compromise who I really am and what I believe, as fluid and ever-changing as that is. Thank you so much for making this available for those of us who weren’t able to be there!
Thankyou Joanna, I can’t stop crying. Amen and amen!!!!!
I hear you JCH. I agree.
Amazing.
Joanna,
I had been meaning to listen to your talk for weeks now and yesterday as my husband and I were driving home from the Oregon Coast I was able to have some quiet, down time to really listen. It has been a rough couple months for me working through my Mormon identity. I have gone in cycles my whole life of being able to ignore or have the screaming of the cognitive dissonance in my heart and head. Recently I’ve had more extreme turmoil for various reasons.
I really needed to listen to this yesterday. I have felt everything you express in being an outsider in my community (doctrine question, political issues etc etc). I have often wondered what it would be like to step away for a bit and see how it felt to take some of the pressure off. I just don’t even know what this would look like?? My Heavenly Father Loves Me naturally comes out of my mouth as I rock my 10 month old to sleep. I can’t help it. I really identified with your feelings about your daughters and Mormonism. I am so much a Mormon. All of my insides. It is in my DNA. I love this community. But sometimes I don’t know if it wants me??
You words truly affected me. You were articulate, wise, and brave. I was moved to Mormon tears
Thank you for sharing yourself with us all and telling your story so people like me don’t feel so alone.
Aimee
Wow. That was amazing. It’s a little weird to be tearing up at work but I guess it’s all good.
Joanna almost convinces me that I could ignore the things about the Church that I have issues with and start attending again. Then again maybe not. I can at least engage more with people like those at the MS SLC Conference.
I’ve probably given Joanna some grief in my comments on RD but must admit that I’d be proud to identify myself with any group she is a part of.
Thank you, Joanna.
You truly have a Christlike heart, Joanna. THANK YOU for accepting us…ALL of us! I’m basking in a spirit of love and warmth.
I am a “selectively open” celibate gay man serving as the clerk in a stake presidency in Idaho. For most of my life, I have felt the fear of rejection from my beloved family, my beloved BYU, and my beloved Mormon faith, which kept me silent and suffering for so long. But thanks to crusaders like you and the Mormon Stories family, there is a changing Mormon culture where I am now happily serving the Lord without fear. I serve in a indispensable way in my stake, as I offer a set of talents nearly perfectly suited to my calling. I am so grateful to be on the inside and not on the outside looking in. The Church needs people like me.
I am slowly gaining courage and being more open and willing to share my story. I, like you, feel so much love and acceptance for EVERYONE. But one of my frustrations is that I am perceived as so “perfect,” so pious, and so valiant, that marginalized members may feel uncomfortable approaching me or being open with their struggles, which I would very compassionately accept and deeply understand. I’m sure I can overcome that by being more open myself. Thank you for your example to me!
Jeff,
I’d love to have you on the podcast if/when it works for you.
Thanks for sharing your story.
John
Dear, sweet Joanna Brooks…BEST. EPISODE. EVER.