In this episode we interview John and Brooke McLay. John served for 14 years as an employee of the LDS Church Education System (CES). In this capacity he served as: a seminary teacher and principal, an institute teacher and director, a BYU Education Week speaker and an EFY Director. John also served as a member of a stake high council, and was serving in a bishopric during the months leading up to his decision to leave the LDS Church. John and Brooke resigned their membership of the LDS Church in August of 2011. This is their story.
Part 1: Growing up in the LDS Church and Serving as an LDS CES Seminary and Institute Teacher
Part 2: Ceasing to Believe in the LDS Church as a CES Seminary and Institute Teacher
Part 3: The Decision to Resign from the LDS Church as a CES Seminary and Institute Teacher
Part 4: How the LDS Church Education System (CES) Harms the Church and Its Members
I just finished the first three parts and I am completely terrified in hearing your account. I am a non-believer, for the most part, and hearing the reactions to your resignations scares the hell out of me. For me, I don’t know if the hostage situation I am in presently going through the motions of church activity is worse than the disruptive, negativity suffered in leaving formally/informally. I am honestly quite rattled and feel a lot of despair for the situation. I can’t imagine enduring what you have.
Do we need six hours of this? I’m listening to this while I work. One hour into it. The first hour could have easily been summarized in five minutes.
What an amazing interview.
Two thoughts:
1) @johndehlin:disqus , you went on for a while about how leaders might be “distancing themselves” from certain core ideas such as polygamy or apotheiosis. I think we need to factor in another key ingredient, public relations. PR was Hinckley’s bread and butter, and his disavowals and minimizations felt to me like PR spin rather than a statement of what he or Mormons truly believe. The best source for what official Church position is would seem to be best found in the teaching curriculum written for insiders.
2) I do think that members could handle the fully truth, though presentation would be CRITICAL. I think a three-part approach would be effective:
1. In the standard curriculum theology and principles are emphasized, but the more complicated picture is hinted at. For example, “In these chapters Nephi quotes Isaiah. Some scholars believe that this part of Isaiah was written during the Babylonian Exile. We are going to be focusing right now on how these chapters prepare us to live in difficult times..” Or, “There are several differing accounts of Joseph Smith’s First Vision. In the account we are reading, what do we learn about the nature of God?”.
2. We teach a realistic framework that prepares everyone for the complexity. We teach that leaders and the Church are NOT perfect, as John McLay emphasized. We teach the relationship between agency and revelation, how God works with us in the human experience. We teach that the Church is still moving forward and progressing.
3. The Church can be responsive, not necessarily proactive, so that everyone gets exactly what they want and are ready for. The Church should use specialists to create material that can be given to those with the full range of questions. That way those who pick up on the hints in #1 will get what they want, while others who don’t care about the details can continue on their merry way. But because of #2, EVERYONE has the framework to handle any complexity that comes their way. Win win approach.
Dear John and Brooke-
My heart goes out to you.
I left the correlated church a few decades ago after serving in a bishopric and high council and much of what you have said and are going through resonates with me.
I appreciate your personal integrity.
I feel your pain.
Having said that… let me just say that in my opinion you guys are just beginning your real journey of learning (hopefully).
You guys have gone about 150 feet down a rabbit hole that is about 1,000 feet long.
You seem to feel like you have discovered the “truth” about church history and the truth about “doctrine”.
Now you are trying to figure out how to move beyond a religion that you consider to be technically false, even though there are some good teachings and cultural things associated with it.
I would suggest that you have only learned just enough to be even more dangerous to yourselves than you were when you were blindly following the brethren.
You seem to believe the “all or nothing scenario” that either the modern correlated church is true OR the foundational events of the LDS restoration movement are all false, including the doctrines and events related in sections 20, 42, 76 and 110.
The reason your religious world view has crumbled around you is because you were converted to the “story of Joseph Smith” and you based your faith around “prophet worship” and “human priesthood authority” and an “institution” INSTEAD of becoming converted to and basing your beliefs around JESUS CHRIST and the ATONEMENT and the New Testament “gospel of Jesus Christ” and the restored “gospel of Jesus Christ”.
You are currently emulating “zeal without knowledge”.
I challenge you to get back to basics.
Forget about all of the people pointing fingers at you in the large and spacious building and search out the iron rod. Then hang on to it with all your might as it leads you to the love of God.
Forget everything you have been spoon fed about history and doctrine by the church AND by those who have rejected the gospel and then simply get back into the WORD OF GOD.
Quit letting other people do your research for you. Find out for yourselves through your own personal study what really did happen between 1829-1834 pertaining to the history and doctrine of the restoration movement.
Accept the challenge provided in D&C 1:37-38 it can get you further down the rabbit hole to where you need to get.
And if you ever really want to get into a deep discussion on doctrinal and history.. let me know.
OneWhoIsWatching
Stop blaming the person…and take responsibility for the History and teachings! It has NOTHING to do will Jesus and the atonement…stop deflecting!
Been
following all the podcasts for some time (am a financial supporter) but I amazed
at why so many people get hung up on history and the perceived inconsistence in
it. The only thing that matters is whether
the priesthood was restored or not. And
since it was, who cares about the fallibility of mankind and mankind’s
application of the principles. After all
we are a work in progress and so is the church.
Certainly no reason to leave the church over it. (I view the history
like the movie “Vantage Point”). There
are bound to be differences in opinions and perceived perspectives so I will
wait, stay in the church, and talk to Bro. Joseph and get the real low down on
what happened. So if at that point it is false, well the journey was
fulfilling, and will let the Lord take if from that point. In the mean time, I
too will be “bored” at some to the talks
in sacrament meeting, but realizing the “talks” are not why we attend that
meeting, and I will “endure”.
He He, I love your post – if only it were really that simple.
You are right about the restoration of the Priesthood, problem is, men like them never restored anything – exept their bank balances! By all means, have a good chat to Bro Joseph, if you can catch him.
I wish you well in your journey in the Church and your ‘enduring’ through it all – try not to nod off in Sacrament meeting though – sweet dreams.
Guess
you were there, thanks for your enlightenment. And it is that simple! Why make it complicated. Every learning, etc.
I guess neither of us were there – but the many people that documented their daily lives in their journals certainly were! And yes, I hear you say, there are good and bad accounts of life in the early church. I think we have to weigh it all up and read between the lines and reach our our own conclusions about the historic truth of the LDS church. For me, it is not a favourable conclusion.
Joseph Smith was not a nice man, neither was Brigham Young – end of story.
I don’t think it is as much an issue of fallibility as it is credibility.
I can accept that people who have done great things in our history have made mistakes, even done things I don’t respect. I think about finding out the Benjamin Franklin actually visited a prostitute or two in his day rather shocking in comparison with the stories that I was brought up with about him, but I chalk that up to human fallibility and I can appreciate the many things he did do that benefit me today. Thank God for public libraries!
It is quite different to learn,among many things, that Joseph Smith more than likely made up the entire “Pearl of Great Price”. If he could make that up and evidence does seem to point to that, then more than likely he could make up a couple of other things as well, namely the “Restoration” and the “Only true church on the face of the earth” claim.
It is different when a church that claims to be Gods pure source of light keeps you in the dark about sooooooo many things. That doesn’t seem very credible.
I just loved you guys! I haven’t as yet heard anyone that I have related to as much as you all. Thank you for your courage. Can we start a church together? That is a church I would love to go to
I wanted to share something with you that helped me so much as I was trying to find my own voice in the midst of a million other voices around me. My experience in the church was that I had to listen to someone else more than myself. That I could never really trust myself because I could be so easily deceived. The book that helped me find my own voice was called ” Loving What Is” by Byron Katie. It helped me get out of my head and into my heart. It helped me see my own thoughts and opinions for the first time. It helped me find myself, and that has been the greatest gift that has ever come my way. It was such a relief!
I wanted to share it with you because it along with Mormon Stories gave me sense of community as I was leaving the church. I found out that that community was between me and God and nothing or no one else.
Sending so much love your way.
Jess
While it is your prerogative to explain your own story I find that Mitt Romney is tagged on this article is despicable. Why do you seek to smear the Church and his campaign if, as you claimed in the first episode, you aren’t here to destroy faith? You have your right to tell your story, but be honorable in doing it.
I don’t see the tag but my question to you is … How is “faith” tied to the Romney campaign? Your subconscious association of “the Church” with “the Mitt” speaks volumes.
While it is your prerogative to explain your own story I find that Mitt Romney is tagged on this article is despicable. Why do you seek to smear the Church and his campaign if, as you claimed in the first episode, you aren’t here to destroy faith? You have your right to tell your story, but be honorable in doing it.
I stayed up until 3:30am listening to your story. Soo compelling. I wept multiple times and just want to say how inspiring your story is and how much admiration I have for you both. I am 42 years old, married to a tbm wife and 4 kids. I have put many things on the shelf over the years but the shelf broke from the weight when I stumbled onto the Dr. Coe talk just over a month ago. Thank you for sharing your story with such openness and honesty.
John and Brooke, My husband and I have been in your shoes. Only, we got excommunicated. We had a three hour disciplinary counsel and discussed every inconsistancy in the church, blood temple oaths, blacks and priesthood, Joseph Smiths secret polygamy, polyandry, Adam God theory, men living on the moon, on and on and on. In the end, we were told, ” Obey the brethren” Even though not one member of the counsel could dispute the historical evidence. We must shut up and obey the brethren. My husband had served as a counselor to the very Stake Pres. who had to ex him. Don’t worry. Things get much better. A great book is ” Conversations With God” by Neil Donald Walsch A great and magnificent book to help you in your transition.
Our lives are free and full leaving Mormonism behind is the best thing we have ever done!
Jill,
I’d love to know your story. It would be good to see you on Mormon Stories someday.
Best Wishes and God Bless,
Jonah
I appreciated the authentic and courageous way in which the McLays shared their experience, and want to wish them and their family well as they begin anew. As a mother of a fairly large family, now grown, and friend/teacher of many young people throughout the years I just wanted to share my observation and opinion that in spite of its imperfections and room for improvement, the CES has done far more good than harm to young people. New discoveries by some folks does not change what has been there all along, for good or ill.
An absolutely amazing, and inspirational story. So glad to be able to learn of John and Brooke. Thanks for your shining examples and your integrity! May your journey ahead be filled with love and happiness.
Wow! listening to this interview was refreshing because I realized I am not alone. I have struggled with my membership in the church for a few years now, but I really don’t have anyone that I can share my feelings with. I am amazed at the similarities I can identify with when listening to John’s story. As I continue to live a lie in order to please all the people in my life that are more important than anything else, I can’t help but wonder how long I can keep doing it. Interviews like this are very helpful to me.
Thanks,
Listening to your story gave me new strength in my journey as a post mornon. Thank you for your honesty and integrity.
John – have you thought about being a high school teacher (you can start right away as a substitute teacher) or writing a book about your experience…you’d be great at both!
Wow, what a pair of egos on those two. They spend so much time in the podcast going on about how important they were in the church, how well regarded they were, how special they thought they were. John even said he thought that leaving CES but staying a member would harm the church. I’m sorry, but the decisions of one seminary teacher in Colorado have no effect on the church as a whole. Oh, you were in the bishopric? Who cares?! All of this adoration you think you had is all in your own minds. Even if a few local people thought well of you, outside of your tiny sphere of influence no one even knows your name – just like everyone else in the world. Get over yourselves.
Also, you keep going on about feeling like you were trapped in a box, but never seem to grasp that it was a box of your own making. You blame the church for it, but refuse to take responsibility for your own learning. I’m glad that you are now seeing a larger view of the world, but there are plenty of people in and out of the church that have even wider views than you. You don’t actually need to leave the church to leave the box, you just need to realize that the walls around you are your own creation, and choose to break them down.
Couldn’t have said it better, Jake. I’m not a mormon, but it’s easy to see that these two have issues that go much deeper than just religious dissatisfaction-it’s just easier to blame a church, I guess. Hope they find what they’re looking for although, my gut feeling is they just miss the attention they were so fond of. Guess this is a perfect remedy for that, huh?
I was privileged to meet John and Brooke the other day and they were kind and wonderful. If you have a chance, I encourage you to take it.
I went to high school with Brooke and to listen to her now is like listening to a stranger. This is not the same bubbly, sweet, fun, self-assured Brooke I used to know. This Brooke is confused, easily persuaded, unsure, and misguided. Her description of her life with John while still living within the LDS faith would sound terrible to anyone the way she has described it. Being a mother myself, I can’t understand why she feels the need to stay out until midnight with her friends (gay or not) or have male friends. Is her relationships with her children, family, and husband just not fulfilling enough? I’m not suggesting that she give up friends, but I don’t know of many husbands, mormon or otherwise, who would be super thrilled about the prospect of a bunch of male friends hanging out with their wives, and vice versa. Suddenly she leaves the church and has this sensational discovery that everyone is important. What? The church is HUGE on building the self-esteem, talents, and capabilities of it’s members. She questions the very foundation of her beliefs and yet has no problem bearing her “testimony”. Seriously? If you want people to believe you’re sincere and even go so far as to say that-then what’s with the fake testimony?
All I see are two people who apparently weren’t even ”important” enough to each other- so how could they ever feel important enough in the eyes of the members of the church? It’s easy to turn away from anything when you’re not invested in it. So people weren’t singing your praises daily and you figured out that parenting means staying in with the kids instead of staying out all night, putting their needs above your own, making sure they know they’re loved and “important” and learning that not everything can be about you anymore. So you got your feelings hurt by other members in the church-here’s the real truth: The church is perfect, the people are not. Doesn’t matter what religion you belong to-people are and always will be imperfect. Suck it up and come back to the church. I have a feeling that you will. The Brooke I knew would totally agree with this.
My carefree, cute, bubbly, fun high school self thinks your jeal!
I agree with you. You posted one of the few comments that actually makes sense. Everybody else praises what they did, but I don’t either. They left the church, period. No excuse for that. Good post.
I don’t know either Brooke or John, but I understand them. I don’t think highschool-friend-of-Brooke understands her, or has any desire to understand her. Once you realize that the church *isn’t* perfect as highschool-friend-of-Brooke states it is, everything changes. I have no doubt that Brooke was once self-assured, but as she will probably agree, she was self-assured in a falsehood. Being able and willing to admit that you believed a falsehood and then moving on is probably one of the toughest and bravest things anyone can do.
My experience corroborates that described by Brooke. No longer identifying as a Mormon, takes willingness to step into a scary, unknown world. This transition can be difficult but for those of integrity, sometimes becomes a natural expression of intent to be sincere. Sometimes a person changes. Sometimes this change is seen as negative by those who have not changed. Often people respond to change as though the person who changed should remain in an earlier state. So much for growth.
Highschool-friend-of-Brooke may remain good friends with Brooke. Brooke is still a wonderful person and now has the added benefit of having experienced a profound change. Just because Brooke may have changed might mean she has grown or learned. I am lucky to have family who acknowledge this type of change and continue to express love. To me, love speaks.
John, Brooke – All the best to you. Not sure what you job status is, but I was in a similar situation. It will get better.
I asked my wife to consider leaving Mormonism – I was 37 years old at the time. FOR ME, Mormonism was destructive.
Bottom line: Wive was unwilling to do so, and 2 years later she filed for divorce. Just 2 months prior to her divorce action I lost my aerospace job. I was unemployed.
She had to divorce me as she believed that I had lost my job due to my heresy, the Lord was cursing me. She also received encouragement from her active Mormon family. That’s just what Mormons do.
BTW, Gordon B Hinckley provided a way for Mormons to know when church enemies (and heretics) are punished by the Lord. See his spring 1994 conference address. The Mormon God will ensure that misery is injected into every element of life.
But, it’s a good thing that I didn’t believe this.
Things were bad!
After a total of 18 months, I found a part time job teaching at the local college, and networking helped me to land more and better positions.
At the same time, I invested surplus income, and at 57 I retired and am living off capital gains.
I took risks, some bad, very bad, but the majority paid off.
The Mormon God still loves you , despite what GBH said, and he loves Mormons too.
You WILL be successful in your future endeavors.
A beautiful and a hopeful email. Thanks so much, Eastbourne.
John
John & Brooke,
As one who also recently left the church over similar issues, I feel your pain. I am a physician in Colorado Springs and would love to meet you. Let me know if that would work.
All the best…
Just finished the McLay interview for the second time (it is such a profoundly
important and extensive piece I think it needs to be gone over more than once,
maybe many times). Congratulations to all parties involved in this
landmark production.
As a convert, never having had exposure to CES, I didn’t realize there was such a
dichotomy between them and the more progressive aspects of the Church (such as
they are). Church leaders would do well to look long and hard at the
suggestions they made to address the problems.
1) Elitism; this “one true church” concept is offensive to our neighbor churches
and must be erradicated.
2) Outward apperances are over emphasized.
3) The stigmas need to be actively addressed and done away with (we don’t
all have to go on missions, or seminary etc.).
4) Need to trust our youth with the truth for God sakes!
5) Admit the church is not perfect, please.
6) And can we please promote critical thinking and allow for doubt
and our own intellectual investigations!
Thank you again McLays’ and John Dehlin.
.
I’m sorry, the “spirit” simply constrains me to make another entry here.
Am I missing something? Because of its particular timing this John and
Brook McLay interview ranks as one of the most important events in history.
That’s what I just said. Read it again. Why have the comments stopped coming,
and why are they missing the significance of it?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints simply can not afford to
have have a person (John, along with his wife) this entrenched in a vital,
simply vital Church program (CES), this dedicated (at one time) to his calling,
this intelligent and gifted and sincere and forthright, running around on a major
social media outlet like Mormon Stories disillusioned with the Church, and for
perfectly elucidated reasons.
This interview, along with all the other hits the Church is taking (John Dehlin’s
archives, Ex Mormon.org etc) will force the hand of this great and powerful
organization. They will be forced into major reforms, not a doubt in my mind.
But here’s what is even more significant. I believe the LDS Church probably
is the church authorized to oversee the latter day gathering of the 12 Tribes.
Hell, they’re practically the only church that even knows there are 12 Tribes of Israel
commissioned to convert the great masses of gentiles before the second coming.
So what John Dehlin has miraculously (yes it is a miracle but I don’t think he
realizes it yet) managed to do is set up a mechanism powerful enough to
infuse the structure of the restoration (the current LDS Church) with the
proper spirit of the restoration. I believe this has probably been missing
since the very beginning when Joseph Smith went a bit koo koo with his
power trip (somewhat understandable given the incredible responsibilities
and insights he was privy to). And I don’t think it necessarily transferred
all that well through Brigham Young and polygamy.
This is really wild folks. John Dehlin has managed to capture the perfect spirit
the Lord was looking for. He will be an historic figure and Mormon Stories
groups will blossom around the world with their incredible spirit of love.
Then at those testimony meetings truely the angels of heaven will be rejoicing
amongst us.
I’m all in with Mormon Stories. Thanks John.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, reformer. However, I don’t see any sign that major reforms are coming or even possible. I hope you’re right, though.
Thanks very much for your comment Joseph P.
My advice is just keep following Mormon Stories. It wouldn’t
surprise me if very soon it is made an unofficial Church website for
those struggling with their testimonies. After all John Dehlin
(and myself) has admittedly struggled with his testimony yet he
desires to retain his ties to the LDS Church (as do I).
By the way, anyone out there in the San Francisco Bay Area. Let’s
have a Mormon Stories get together and testimony (whatever that
may be) meeting.
I would like to amend my first reply to you Joseph P.
First of all let me say it’s a great morning to be a Mormon Stories fan,
and have that great advocate of truth, openness, and freedom of
expression in our corner.
After thinking about my statement that the LDS Church would fully
embrace Mormon Stories, I now think that was overly optimistic. I think
MS is a bit too critical of the Church (and rightly so) for this to occur.
However some Bishops are already referring their members to MS for
specific issues.
I don’t think its unrealistic to hope that sometime in the near future some
high ranking LDS officials might come calling on John Dehlin, or the
McLays’, or some other guest from Mormon Stories and ask them to be
consultants on some of the sticky issues of today facing their Church (like
the “brain drain” (the exodus of intellectuals from the Church), or updating
the CES curriculum).
Maybe John can get one of these high ranking officials on Mormon
Stories and hit him with those oh-so-subtle but penatrating questions that
only he can ask, perhaps shedding some light on what’s really going on up
there in the ivory tower.
Again I praise you and anyone else who has put some time in on
Mormon Stories.
Bishops are referring people to MS? More info, please. that’s encouraging.
This is to Brooke: I’m sorry anyone in the Church ever gave you the idea that you must be associating only with other LDS people. I have been a devoted Latter-day Saint for 45 years and have been having my gay friends over to the house for dinner and going to dinner at their homes for 35 years. We disagree about some things, but I disagree with every one I know about one thing or another. And yes, I did have to insist that I really did not want to view one man’s nude vacation pictures. I have Catholic friends who serve wine when I am there for Thanksgiving but they buy Martinelli’s for me. Where in the world did you get the idea that you could not be associating with non-Mormons socially? Who gave you the idea your world needed to be so narrow? Of course you do not want to return to such a small box. But whatever gave you the idea you had to live in it in the first place? I was never taught such nonsense at Church.
And John: It was an institute teacher I had many years ago who taught our comparitive Christian religion class who made sure he taught us that he wanted us to understand what people believed so that we would know why they practiced the way they did. He always told us that if we believed what the Catholics believed about unbaptized infants dying we could understand why nuns in Catholic hospitals were taught to baptize in the womb if it looked like the baby was going to die during birth. And he made sure we knew that he did not want to criticize and compare but to teach us to understand. What did the Church do with such a radical LDS teacher? He was called to serve as a Seventy.
Maybe things have become too rigid in CES. I am a generation older than the two of you and have spent 40 years reading Church history. Yes, there are some disturbing stories if you believe the Church leaders did not make mistakes. I believe they did make mistakes. I believe they are subject to human error just like the rest of us. When I examine my own life in middle age I find that I made some terrible mistakes when I was younger and misunderstood the meaning of some of the doctrines or decided to emphasize justice over mercy. But I have also seen equally terrible mistakes when in middle age I decided to emphasize mercy over justice, leaving people believing that their horrific sins did no damage in my life and they should just walk away pretending all is well. I believe we are all here on a learning adventure and that we agreed to suffer at each others hands, knowing that God was not going to intervene very often to stop the pain. What could be more important than the sealing ordinances. But God let Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor all teach and practice the idea that Church members should be sealed to prophets instead of their own fathers and mothers and only corrected the error when Wilford Woodruff was pondering it. We teach the doctrine that God has many great and important things yet to teach us, but we refuse to consider the implications of that — that things we are being taught today could be wrong or incomplete and that is why they will be changed in the future.
Hi – you seem to be an unusual member of the Church! It’s interesting to note that you stand by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, despite their koo koo episodes as you put it. I grew up in an LDS household with the Journals of Discourse and many other church history books on the shelf, and my father was an avid reader of true church history. He knew it all, and accepted it, and testified that Joseph Smith was a true prophet to his dying day.
For me, I never took the church seriously enough – I think that’s why I later left. It was only after my Dad passed away that I decided to have a last, once and for all look at what he so firmly believed in. What I found astounded me, I knew about the teachings of Brigham Young, but had never really delved into it all in great detail – I already thought that I knew alot! When I questioned my mother about the Book of Abraham, she didn’t even know that the papyri had been found in 1966 – I often wonder if my Dad knew that.
I like many others have come to the conclusion that any God would never in a million years work with such people as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young – they were not nice people deep down! Now I can see why I could never accept the church to the degree that is needed to live it’s teachings to the full, it’s just not true, and is a product of frontier America in the 1800′s – Christianity on steroids!!
This is reformer1. I think you were referring to me since you referenced
my “koo koo” comment. The Lord uses all kinds of people. The great
Apostle Paul was not so nice before his conversion.
By-the-way, I differentiate between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
I think Mormons make a big mistake lumping those two together. I think
the Church is still recovering from Br. Brigham’s reign.
I think I understand your lack of confidence in this LDS Church. They’ve
made lots of mistakes. But if you look carefully at the other churches
around, well it’s not a pretty picture. Amazingly, the Mormons are the ones
teaching more of what the Bible actually says.
Look, if you’ve found a better, more insightful group please tell me about
it. I’m not at all beholden to the Mormons. But don’t bother telling me
about one of those typical neighborhood Protestant churches that teach
pure jibberish and call it Christianity.
Anyway I’d be curious about the path you’ve found. All the best.
Thanks Reformer1, I found your comments interesting – I gather you aren’t a big fan of Bro Brigham! My issues with the origins of Mormonism go very deep, right back to Sidney Rigdon really – if you undertake a study of his life, he played a major role in making the church what it is today, and was, in the 1830′s. For me, the LDS church’s deafening silence on anything to do with Sydney Rigdon is very significant – I think he is the founding father of the movement.Where does this leave me you ask, probably one of the 40% of exe’s that don’t believe in anything anymore. So many ex mormons give up totally on the religion thing, after being let down so badly by broken promises.The church is such a great social organisation, with wonderful people that I feel very comfortable being around. I wish it would reform, and tell the whole truth – then I might return. I wish you well in your chosen paths.
Please see reply below, reformer1
Thankyou MaMartin. I was thinking the very same things as I listened. I never heard of the rule we couldn’t associate with gays, or anyone for that matter. I think maybe some families/wards/stakes are more letter of the law types than others. Choosing friends carefully is a natural law I think. If someones character radiates goodness, it doesn’t matter who they are.
And I agree again. Who said the doctrine of continuing revelation only included adding upon? What an inconvenient mistake to make. Revelation clearly also corrects errors of the past. If not, what is the restoration. Church leaders of all sects, which include good, good persons have made mistakes, such that it led to apostasy.
Even as a young person growing up in the church, I somehow concluded that some things I was hearing were questionable. I lived my life as close to the church as anyone could in spite of those questions. Little by little later life I began discovering I was right in reserving my faith. And I was no-one special but perhaps blessed to have heard those whisperings. Maybe that’s why it hasn’t taken very long for me to come to terms with the church history mess. I had allowed for it all along it seems.
It really does come down to having a forgiving heart and following what is good and right and just standing without the aid of the church scaffolding. I canot find anywhere else in the world where I can worship my God any better than in the LDS church. It will simply be a bonus if I come to find later in life that the church history mess wasn’t such a mess after all, just different vantage points.
Thanks for all your comments westernchampion. Very interesting and revealing. I’m
glad you found this remarkable web site. I think it says a whole lot about anyone who
appreciates the work John Dehlin is doing here. I think he and Mormon Stories (and
the other ex-Mormon sites) are going to shake this organization to the core.
It is time for those 12 or 15 or however many there are up in that ivory tower to pray
real hard for a revelation from God that is actually relevant to the crises of credibility
they are facing. Stop this nonsense of pretending all is well in Zion. You’re all in
serious denial if you think so. It’s time for real talk, like what’s going on on Mormon
Stories. And for God’s sake, stop persecuting the intellectuals and scholars who are
uncovering these truths. Repent of it! What are you people thinking up there??
Overturn any excommunications based on intellectual disagreements alone. Can we
have open and honest discourse please!
They’re going to have to act soon. Otherwise a whole generation, like you, will
reject these fakers. But I still think they’ll see the light and come up with some
dramatic action this year to regain our trust. It had better be sooner rather than later.
One other thing I want to say. God and Jesus are real and communicate
with us through the Holy Spirit, irrespective of the LDS Church. They will
always respond to sincere prayer and a pure and charitable heart. There are
other decent churches out there where that magical Holy Spirit is strong.
One must remember, the children need Christian peers for healthy growth.
And adults also need frequent reminders of the wisdom that is in the Bible.
I think you are right…God and Jesus do communicate with people of all faiths through the Holy Spirit. It seems kind of ridiculous to think they would only answer the prayers of LDS people!
Thank you for this blog. I have been feeling this way for years and I am trying to find a way out without destroying my family and losing friends.
Hang in there…there are many who are going through the same thing and will love and be understanding of you if you do make that choice!
One of the saddest things I”ve seen or heard. To watch a wonderful family who I credit with helping my son thru a tough time in his life turn their back on what I can say at one point I know they believed…they are a wonderful family and while we wish them the best I have to ask why if the job was so mundane didn’t he quit, go back to school and get a different job? Why didn’t he continue to take classes? The LDS Church doesn’t force CES workers to stay in their position for life….things happen, people change…it’s sad for them and for all those who attended his great classes but a nice wake up call to all of us to examine our testimonies to see if we are just going thru the motions and only believe because of certain people or if we truly have a testimony of our own. None of these reasons for leaving the church are new or have been hidden…perhaps growing up LDS in the “missions field” exposes us to more and perhaps families need to take more action to address questions when children are younger but all in all there is nothing new in any of this. A dear family has made the choice at least for now to try something else…and they will find in the long run their lives will be no more fulfilling than before. Oh maybe for a time things will seem free and light but the true joy will evade them till the underlying issues are resolved. Still we admire what we remember of them as we have moved away and pray for their happiness…
Thank you for your thoughtful comment Daddask. I think you’re missing the big picture
however. This is not a sad situatuion at all for the McClays. They are awsome, inspiring,
courageous. Pioneers. They have had the guts to throw caution to the wind and follow
their hearts as well as the truth. Amazing blessings will come out of their great adventure.
Oh it won’t be easy. Trailblazing seldom is. Perhaps you’re just a little too comfortable
going with the flow, letting others do the thinking for you.
Look, I’m still a semi- active Mormon, a convert of 20 years. There are some wonderful
things about the Church. But a reasonably open minded person cannot deny Church
leaders have engaged in a pattern of deception, intimidation, censorship, and general
whitewashing of the historical roots of the Church. And then they have absolulely
brainwashed and browbeaten their youth into accepting this indoctrination without
daring to question it. This is abuse my friend, and Church leaders must be held
accountable for it. They’ve excommunicated people for publicly expressing valid
doubts about accepted Church doctrine. These people need to be reinstated
immediately.
And if Church leaders would take some of their own advise about reaching out to “fallen
away” members and “apostates” it might help. Why don’t they actually address some
of the issues that concern the thousands in this state of faith, instead of hiding behind their
crumbling false pius facade. And address them at General Conference. What, they’re
too important to get down and dirty and be real with us for once. And can they quit
putting all the blame for their “fallen” state on these souls alone. That is plain denial.
How about admitting Church shortcomings like ”stonewalling” and not being forthcoming
about inaccuracies on important issues may have contributed to their loss of faith in your
so called inspired leadership.
The Church desperately needs to adopt a policy of allowing complete open
discussion on all the issues at hand. They need only to look to John Dehlin’s
Mormon Stories and Open Stories Foundation as an example of such a policy in
action. It is incredibly powerful and transformative.
P.S. The San Jose, CA area, and SF Bay Area need to represent in this great reform
movement. I know we have the population and energy and vision to do it.
I graduated from high school with John McLay. He was then and is now one of the kindest, most sincere and best people I have ever known. I will continue to feel this way whether he is a church member or not. I have watched this interview twice and I am astonished at the difficulty of the journey he has been on. Church members may not want to admit this, but most of us have been conditioned to be very judgemental of those who leave or have a crisis of faith. Many of us would not have the courage to give up the only career, life, and religion we have ever known to do something we feel to be right, and I admire and respect the strength and integrity of John and his wife. To those of you in the church (of which I am also a member) who would criticize John: Please be kind. Please be understanding. Please show the love of Christ that you have been taught to live in this church. Please open your minds and hearts to the struggles of others. I realize this can be hard to do when you have been taught to believe there is only one true way. But we should wrap our arms around and continue to love John and those like him who make the choice to leave, just as we did when he was a member. John, I think you are incredible person and know you will find your place in the world and continue to shine a bright light on those around you. Much love, An Old Friend
Beautiful. Thanks, classof91.
You’re welcome! This website is wonderful…thanks so much for what you are doing. It is much needed!
Classof91,
Your loving comments brought me to tears. Love, kindness, and compassion is the only reaction I could possibly imagine for this lovely couple experiencing such pain and heartache. You are a true example of an “old friend.”
I went to EFY with Bro. McClay as my Session Director three times. He was a spiritual GIANT. This guy touched everyone of us. I left that week on a spiritual high and this guy helped me build my testimony three summers in a row. This is the last person I would think that would leave the church. The fact that he is now an ex-Mormon completely blows my mind. I almost don’t believe. Seriously , mind is blown.
I love John and Brooke. Although I never met them in connection with EFY, they have made a significant choice motivated by their intent to maintain personal integrity. Best wishes, Chase.
Having someone we look up to seem different than our mental image can be difficult, but the individual we knew who was deeply committed to honesty and truth remains so. Although they have scrupulously avoided details which might lead to conclusions they have drawn, this information is easily found.
I also went to an EFY with the McLays in 2005. It was a pivotal moment for me. I then read the whole Book of Mormon and received an answer that it is true. That was the beginning for me really, once I knew that it is true. My testimony has only grown since then. I just got home from my mission and it was sad to see Brooke online, that she is divorced and to connect all the dots. They are both great human beings. I pray for them as they go their separate ways. This reminds me of Lehi’s dream.
I am about half way through video number 2 right now. Brooke has just shared her experience about having “to think about it” when her foodie colleague revealed to her that he was gay.
The McLays’ story, to me, appears to be what happens when cultural Mormons realize that “cultural Mormonism” is not true. In many ways, I do not blame them for feeling let down by this realization. The Church, too often, tends to preach “cultural Mormonism” to the detriment of true, doctrinal Mormonism. One recent example that comes to mind is the “Testimony Glove”–where we remember what we’re supposed to say in our testimony because there are five components to it like the fingers on a glove. *rolls eyes*
Ironically, I found this site because I was online to look in to how to become a Seminary teacher. But I might have too many issues with the way that CES does things to ever be able to fit their mold of what a Seminary teacher should be. For example, my testimony of Joseph Smith was strengthened tremendously when I read “Rough Stone Rolling.” When I told this to my neighbor, who is a full-time Seminary teacher, he said that RSR is apostate literature. Interesting that it is controversial within CES. It looks like I need to postpone my application for Seminary teacher until after the Church is more open about the times that Joseph did not follow the Spirit (e.g., the Kinderhook plates).
It makes me so sad how ignorant Brooke sounds. She makes it sound like Mormon’s hate Gay people, or people who drink. She even made the comment that she suddenly felt like she had a spiritual connection with her Gay friend, but she wasn’t supposed to because he was Gay.
I was inactive for 8 years of my life and decided to come back. I believe in evolution, I support Gay marriage, and I genuinely love people just as they are (which is another comment she made that she work up and just loved everyone). So it makes me sad that she was so ignorant while she was Mormon that she couldn’t see the beauty of people around her. That she lived in her confined 4 wall box as she put it. What a sad life.
I love the great things about being Mormon along with all my beliefs and love for all of God’s children. Yes, people are born Gay and God loves them just as much as he loves me even if they aren’t Mormon. Sad that she made it sound like we are all like her….
Jill, I’m not sure if this was your intent, but your post sounds like a clear case of “blame the victim.” I’m glad that you haven’t felt the pressure to conform in the ways that Brooke did, but it almost sounds like you’re denying that pressure exists, denying that the church has teachings that can make gays and liberals and intellectuals and cafeteria Mormons feel marginalized.
So, yes, it is sad that she felt like she had to think that way. But don’t blame that on her. Blame that on the institution that taught her to think that way. I wish more Mormons were like you in their outlook towards those who are different. If you’ve never experienced any pushback from the church for thinking the way you do, I hope you never do have to experience it. But if that is the case, you are in the lucky minority among liberal Mormons, even now.
Craig, I can definitely understand why someone would feel that it is the institution that made Brooke feel the way she does. I believe, like most important things we learn in our lives, those lessons are taught in the home and not necessarily in the institution. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the church that act the way they expect the church to have them act. It isn’t the way the church intended for the lesson to come across.
We believe the commandments just as much as any other Christian religion, and the 2nd great commandment is that we love one another, so I guess that is why it was hard for me to listen to Brooke say that she was judgmental because that’s a fundamental lesson that should have been taught in the home and not in the church. I can’t remember once where the church said to judge others, in fact they teach the exact opposite. So for Brooke to blame the way she felt on the church is wrong.
I know I am in the minority when it comes to my actions and beliefs, but I know that this is how my Savior would have me act, and I am a part of his church. The church in itself is the most perfect on the earth, but the people who run it are imperfect people.
You need to act how you feel our Savior would act, and Brooke wasn’t doing that and she blamed her actions on the church which I think is wrong. That is the point I was trying to get across. Not that Brooke is bad or anything, just that she shouldn’t blame her ignorance on the church because she isn’t the church, she’s Brooke. Own your stuff.
You both have spoken my heart! Thank you for the courage to share your story, it helps gives me strength to have my own courage.
Does anyone find it weird that he frames his transition/rebelliousness in terms of things like listening to NPR????
I would have asked the Apostle directly about my doctrinal concerns. I wish that these two would have been more direct w/ him. Not many of us with the same story have that opportunity… Otherwise, thanks for sharing and good luck
I just want to say, in the end, and I think this is what the McLay’s were saying, is that Jesus Christ is all that matters and what did He teach, that He is the way back to God, and what is He, pure love. Love and compassion for others is what matters. Love for our families, love for neighbors and love for those that in our eyes are fallen. He loved the adulterous woman that came to him in pain seeking relief. I know through my own experiences with pain, that to feel His love and peace is what helps us change and become more like Him, more than anything else. Charity (the pure love of Christ) is what matters.
We don’t or shouldn’t worship our churches or our prophets or leaders or this doctrine or that doctrine or our own ideas. If something is leading us away from being full of God’s love for ourself and others, it’s not what I feel God wants for us. He wants us to be like Him and He is full of pure, everlasting love and goodness. Hate, bitterness, pride and anger all destroy the Love of God in our hearts.
So, I believe as long as we are seeking to be full of that love, we are headed in the right direction, even if it looks as though we’re taking different paths. I totally believe the McLay’s are just desiring to live closer to God not further away, and I completely commend them. It does take courage to do what they’re doing.
As for me, their story has only increased my testimony in the love of God and made me realize that that is what my core is and that is what fills me with meaning and purpose in this, sometimes, very painful life.
i really enjoyed this podcast of John and Brooke McLay’s story.
I was bowled over by John’s genuine goodness and I really understand why he couldn’t stay with the church. He felt betrayed.
When I think about the reality of how polyandry and polygamy was practiced I just wondered what happened ! it really is a huge disconnect with having 33 wives and marrying women who are already married and then bringing forth the D&C, Peart of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon. To me it just boggles the mind !
The church almost was decimated by the practice of polygamy and it took a leader to finally get it that it was going to kill the church unless the practice was stopped. There was no appearance of Deity to say “Stop the practice !” but one man’s coming to terms that polygamy was hurting the church and it was going to end the church is what ending the practice and preserved the church.
John McLay if you are reading this – wow, you have guts. You said a lot that made a lot of sense of why you made the decision to leave. I have had my own faith crisis unrelated to church history.
I hope things work out for you and Brooke. I hope you guys find suitable employment. I understand the hurt and the pain and why coming back isn’t do-able.
Sincerely,
Michael R.
2nd last paragraph should read: “is what ended the practice and preserved the church.”
Such as shame to see the majority of the Mormon faithful come here and post about how the church is true and not address the concerns Brother McLay went through. It felt watching the interview for the second time now that his wife is on some shaky ground. I totally felt Johns sincerity shine through (though to be fair he did say something about his ability to connect) however she really stuck me as a bit of a nut job. And I’m failing to conjure another more appropriate word but what I mean by it is I didn’t feel she was grounded emotionally and mentally the same way he was. I felt like she was much less mature than him, that he’s been pushed to do things for the sake of his marriage, and that he is more interested in satisfying her than really pushing for the give and take she insinuated was unknown to her because of his Mormon influenced patriarchal responsibilities.
Moving past that I myself am an ailing Mormon searching for my own balm in Gilead. I struggle with reconciling the history I’ve been taught with the much more complicated picture. His description of watching the movie of Joseph Smith and feeling Emma’s pain was very touching. I really struggled not only with history but also with deeper theological issues that pervade in Mormonism and Christianity as a whole. Some I’ve had amazing spiritual experiences that were much more than simple feelings, but nothing so concrete that I can adequately shelf all the rest of these haunting details. I really do identify with a quote I heard around Mormon Stories that perhaps the internet will be for Mormonism what the printing press was for the reformation. Certainly transparency in the church is nowhere near the level of my expectations. I want to see the minutes from the council of fifty. I want to understand how the church went from having crazy experiences to having prophets that don’t make prophesies, seers that are not seeing, and revelators that are not revealing. Let’s have the people God used to endow with power and authority to answer the questions that are seemingly falling on deaf ears these days. I listened to an apostle answer a question one time from a child who asked why people are born in different countries quote Wordsworth’s Intimations of Immortality to the effect that the clouds of glory we come to the earth trailing was a result of our righteousness in the pre-existence. Unexplained, that answer is unacceptable to me. That doctrine does not taste good, and I cannot hear it.
Apologies for those who didn’t know they would read this comment and end up with a sad little man groping for a pedestal from which to pour out my heart. This is really troubling.
I just was introduced to the Mormon Stories site and the Mclays this past weekend. I am totally in awe of John’s and Brooke’s bravery. I would not be able to compromise either. There is truly a tightrope that members are asked to walk. The shunning and accusations can be brutal. And if a questioning member’s life has been very sheltered or very compliant……… questioning can get you called in to set you straight. Bless all the seekers. Bles both john and Brooke.