Community of Christ Apostle Susan D. Skoor and Prophet Stephen M. Veazey ordain Becky L. Savage to be a member of the First Presidency
Community of Christ temple
In part 2 of my interview with John Hamer, we discuss the transformation of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (RLDS) towards a more Christ-centered church, including the decision to build a temple in Independence, Missouri, and change its name to “The Community of Christ.”
We also discuss its transition away from prophetic succession based on blood line, and its decision to ordain women to the priesthood.
Thanks John & John,
Very interesting interview.
This is very interesting. Thanks so much John and John.
As an aside: In the 1980′s and early 1990′s, I was working in media sales and was required to read a book called “Positioning” for my work. The book pointed out that in marketing any product, a winning name is extremely important. And churches are marketed…let’s face it. The author mentioned several products that were every bit as good as Tide detergent but because the name did not resound as a winner, the product failed to sell. There were any number of examples.
I sat still for a moment and realized that The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not a winning name. It was not catchy. It did not resound with a message and mostly it was way too long to be a winner.
I bought another copy of the book and sent it to President Sheehy (who was in the First Presidency at the time). He was about to take a trip to California and promised he would read it on the way.
I don’t know how much the book had to do with the name change but I know it made an impression on him because he told me it did.
Thank you guys, I continued to gain a lot from this series. Here is my rant:
I have always disliked the argument that because the CofC was open about their history, and lost members who had their beliefs based upon erroneous information, that the LDS church ought to continue to conceal the truth from its members…who would want them to loose their testimonies of things that are false. I believe the LDS church has the capacity to minimize fallout and frame their questionable history as to not collapse under its own weight. In other words, I think open disclosure about their difficulties does not have to mean that they loose all credibility in bringing people closer to Christ. I also believe that the longer they continue to herd their members with fear of investigation, the more severe the bitterness will be among its members come disaffection/reality time…which I see as an inevitability considering the information age we live in.
Here is the latest to backup my ‘fear of investigation’ claim…from Jan 24th:
http://www.mormontimes.com/around_church/general_authority/?id=12963
A good investigation into Elder Hafen’s talk can be found on MormonThink’s homepage if anyone is interested in following up a bit closer on the article linked above. http://www.mormonthink.com/
Dehlin and Hamer.
Great episode! Thanks for the excellent overview of the Community of Christ.
Hamer, Thanks for dispelling multiple myths that I had heard as a youth (not too long ago).
I am really glad that Mormon Stories is now alive again.
Best of Luck!
I posted this on NOM, but will post my question here as well for John Dehlin. If this was talked about in the final 10 minutes I apologize since I still need to finish up.
You talk about the move away from historicity in the RLDS church. I could not get a grasp on either of your opinions whether you thought this same move was inevitable in the LDS church? Or just hopeful?
I would love to think that there will be a day that I can openly say I do not believe in a literal first vision or gold plates or Peter James and John restoration of the priesthood.
In The Back,
I’m not sure if it’s inevitable….but I do hope that someday there’s a place for folks like us to be open/authentic in the church….while still allowing the church to remain strong.
Thanks John & John, for part 2 of the interview. I really enjoyed it.
When I was growing up, there was tiny branch of the Reorganized Church near my home in Compton, California. A tiny building (probably a home previously) was converted for worship. At the front was a tall glass cabinet with the schedule of meeting times, etc. Across the top (but inside) was a motto I remember. It stated: OUR CREED – ALL TRUTH.
I was glad to hear John speak of the Restoration branches. I wonder if their growth has slowed. As I recall, the problem was higher priesthood offices were not available to give direction. As the few high priests who went into branches die, it would seem that the problem gets even more pronounced. I would love to hear what John thinks of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with its Smith family leadership?
Keep up the podcasts! Shalom.
I have been touched, moved and inspired by this two-part podcast. John Hamer presents what I would describe as being a beautiful celebration of Mormon history. He replaced my misunderstandings of the Community of Christ with great admiration for what I now consider an enlightened and evolving religious organization. Throughout this podcast I felt the liberal aspects of Joseph Smith Jr., aspects I’ve always admired, shine through the Community of Christ’s leadership and its direction. Thank you, John D.
Thanks as always for the great podcast.
I would just like to say that I think it is unfortunate that the decision of the RLDS to become more academically open was a ‘mistake’ because membership dropped so drastically. Why should membership numbers be a measure of success or failure? I think a better measure (albeit a practically impossible one to make) is how happy and fulfilled those who are members are as a result of their Church membership and how easily they facilitate members to come and go on their own quest to find happiness and fulfillment.
Fascinating podcast. I am surprised at how little I know about the Community of Christ and their beliefs. Why do LDS Mormons know so little about our Mormon cousins?
This podcast reminds me of an experience I had as a kid growing up in the midwest. Like many LDS families, my parents took us to Kirtland Ohio to visit early church history sites. We visited the Newel K. Whitney store (and the school of the prophets), the Jon Johnson home, and of course the Kirtland temple. I distinctly remember visiting the temple with a member of the RLDS church leading our tour. Our tour group was composed mostly of LDS families and it was clear that none of us had met a member of the RLDS church before. I think I was more interested in understanding who the RLDS people were and how they related to me (my parents didn’t want to talk about it much). The members of the tour group starting pressing our guide about his faith and ask more uncomfortable questions (like, “why didn’t your people travel west with the saints?”). The poor tour guide did his best to be polite yet direct. His answers generated even more uncomfortable questions and the tour turned into a “bible bash” between the father of one family and the tour guide. I remember wanting to hide under the benches in the lower court of the temple and wishing the insensitive LDS man would shut up. I give a lot of credit to this humble tour guide – it was clear he had been through this many times and did his best to reflect on the sacredness of the building under increasingly hostile questions. Perhaps we need more sensitivity training in our Sunday school.
Hey John D and John H;
What a great podcast! Mormon Stories is back and at its best. I’ve really enjoyed John H’s thoughtful contributions to MormonMatters in the past about other branches of the Restoration, its good to hear these other perspectives and see a wider picture of the Mormon experience. I hope that Mormon Stories becomes a vehicle in widening the vision of all of us under the Mormon umbrella and creating respect and dialogue between us. I’m LDS and have been a member for 33 years here in the United Kingdom but I’m always ready to hear other peoples opinions and experiences of living the gospel and of the ‘rich and colourful’ tapestry of church history. I think the CoC’s decisions about facing up to its history is admirable. The truth will out anyway no matter how much we kick against it. I hope the day comes when the Utah based Church gets to grips with its origins and approaches history in an honest and serious way that gets at the truth. It looks like its starting to happen but I hope it gathers pace. The official history is so diluted, surely with the research that has been done in recent years it just cannot be credible to continue presenting it in such a shallow way; like we encounter it in Sunday School and Ensign articles . Drop the ‘primary level’ stories that are fed to us. Engage with the history in an objective way that searches for the truth and tells the story in its reality. It will be difficult but it could be a managed process. If we have a relationship with the Saviour then I think we could distinguish between the inspired teachings of the latter day scriptures and the weaknesses and flaws of its early leaders who produced them. If we are treated as adults we will live through it like our RLDS/CoC cousins have done. If we are treated as children its no wonder we try to break out of the play pen.
John,
I think it is great that besides interviewing people of the LDS Church (whether member or not), but have also included people from Independent Fundamentalist Mormonism all the way to a more liberal Mormonism with the Community of Christ. I think two things I like about the RLDS is their openness with historical issues as well as scholarships issues and their ability to make the RLDS Church more Christ centered. I do sometimes feel that Joseph Smith is mounted up a bit too high in the LDS Church. I admit, I would be fighting against a strong cultural norm, but Jesus Christ should be more centralized in the LDS Church. Sometimes I feel our Church is more Church egocentric and this is something we can learn from our brothers of the Community of Christ.
THE BOOK OF MORMON AS PROPHETIC PARABLE
http://bookofmormon.webs.com