I have the opportunity to meet with a church leader Thursday night. I would love to gather as much information as I can from you about:
- Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church.
- What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide.
- How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has).
Also, please direct your comments (if you can) to your own situation/thoughts/feelings/needs regarding the church…vs. on compliments (or criticisms) to any one person involved in Mormon Stories, Mormon Matters, etc.
My hope is that this information will adequately convey what needs are “out there” within the church, and what we’re trying to do to support those needs.
Finally, please keep this as constructive as you can, so that it will be heard…and prove useful.
Thanks in advance.
John Dehlin
The Mormon Stories podcasts and StayLDS websites proved very useful to me. So useful, in fact, that it helped to bring a one-time apostate back to full fellowship in the Church. I will be forever thankful for this.
What can they do to make the Church more palatable to us and the rest of the world? Stop calling white guys from Idaho to be apostles. As good as these men are, the Church misses the chance to reach out to the rest of the world. Elder Uchtdorf has been a godsend for many of us. Wouldn’t it be great to have an apostle speak in his native tounge at GC and have it translated into english?
Try actually looking at the makeup of the General Authorities. Otherwise you just sound ignorant.
Most comments here are productive, yours is just an attack. Why so negative? Do you have anything productive to add or do you just want to try to marginalize others. Rather than attack why don’t you come back with the facts. As you didn’t put forth anything substantive, I did some research and here’s what I found.
General Authorities 120 (first presidency, 12 apostles, 1, 2 quorum seventy, presid bishopric)
Caucasian 103
Latino 9
Asian 7
Black 1
Now, other than the slight on Idaho its would seem that Bill is correct. 86% of general authorities are white. In the top 15 positions 100% are white. I want to call you ignorant but in the spirit of love I’ll just say you were misguided.
How many women (from Idaho or not)?
@d530a9c089001dbd1e8702a6fd303bfc:disqus
I completely agree with this. Why the heck doesn’t Uchtdorf give his talk in German with the English audio track made available for English speakers. Same with the Spanish speakers, etc.
And for that matter, why doesn’t The LDS Church have the speakers broadcast their speech from an Assembly hall in their native country. Sure… maybe you only have one or two GAs in these various assembly halls. But imagine how much more included these saints would feel.
Eyring [who is conducting]: We now turn the time over to President Uchtodorf,
who will be sharing hi talk from the _______ assembly hall in Germany.
Uchtdorf: Thank you brother Eyring. I welcome all the saints gathered with me
here in Germany as well as all the saints gathered in assembly halls throughout
the world. Today I would like to share…
The Church has had some Abusive leadership. Including covering up the rape of a child by a Stake President. When the Stake and Bishop are against you survival is not possible. When I think of attending Church, I immediately think of suicide. Last night I had another dream of being abused by a Stake President.
I’m active in the church these days, but likely would not be had I not discovered Mormon Stories. At a time when I had lost considerable trust in the institution because of the church’s actual history, Mormon Stories helped me see that there was still much that was positive and beneficial in the church.
Today, many of the historical issues in the church don’t bother me that much – I accept that everyone and thus the institutions which they lead, serve in, or participate in, are imperfect and make mistakes. And I’m ok with that. Mormon Stories episodes, such as those with Richard Bushman and others, helped me arrive at this point.
What distresses me most about the church today are its cultural elements – a culture that has been created both bottom-up and top-down. We place such a high premium on conformity that people with untraditional beliefs, different backgrounds, viewpoints, or even different colored shirts often feel unwelcome or second-class at church. Many of these people, contrary to popular myth, are trying to obey the commandments and have not been offended; many of them simply feel that they don’t fit the church mold. We often feel that we must sit on our hands with our mouths shut during our meetings.
Another manifestation of this conformity problem is the phenomenon in which those with questions about historical and doctrinal issues have nowhere to turn for answers. The official answers by the church (pray, read scriptures, fast, have more faith) aren’t helpful and offer no understanding of the issues at question, and local leaders, bless them, are often under-informed and under-qualified to deal with such questions. Well-intentioned, compassionate, and even inspired they may be, but a faith crisis is traumatic; helping someone in the midst of one requires more training than our leaders presently receive.
My hope for the church is that its leaders will signal their welcoming embrace of members across the belief spectrum. I hope that it will be more open about some of the sticky historical issues, and create church sanctioned forums in which these questions can be discussed without fear of repercussions, being ostracized, or being scolded. I hope that the church – at the general level and at the local level – will move away from legalism and minutia and, as Joseph Smith called them “the appendages” of the gospel and move toward a focus on the mortal life and ministry, death and resurrection of the Savior.
So now you think you know all the facts, decided to take an anti-LDS position and will abuse your position to take those who used to find you faithful and abuse that position in order to corrupt your faithful listeners. Sounds a lot like the adversary has taken you over. Good luck with that.
Troll
Actually, a Troll is usually someone who drops a simple controversial comment in order to insight trouble…… Seems single word phrasing like “troll” fits well into that definition.
Or in otherwords, hey pot, I am kettle… And your black.
Troll
Child.
Funny that now that John is no longer attending he is Satan’s spawn in your eyes. When he was running StayLDS he was awesome but now that he has decided to not attend he is anti-Mormon and abusing power.
Congrats. Looks like yer black and white thinking is functioning properly.
I’ve listened to the podcast since the start and have— as much as possible— followed John’s journey. He has certainly done things his own way. I couldn’t understand how he could do MormonMatters and StayLDS knowing what he did. I’d tell my believing wife about it and she’d say why can’t you be like John D— he knows and still attends etc.
I may be wrong but from what I have seen John is sincere and just trying to work it all out for himself and his family— and maybe help some others out along the way. That’s what most of us our doing. Whether someone ends up in the Church or out is not really the issue any more. What matters more is finding a place of peace and integrity wherever that ends up being.
‘Sorry’ if that doesn’t fit into your view of the belief and the world but then were talking about our belief and our lives here so……..
Hi John,
It looks like everyone has basically said what I think about Mormon Stories. The church provides nothing for those who are grappling with difficult church issues, or for those dealing with spouses who have left the church. Mormon Stories is a place where one feels support, validation, and a sense of community. It has been invaluable for us.
Thanks for EVERYTHING you do!!
I am a 35 year old mother of four-BIC-married in the temple-weekly temple goer-been in many YW and Primary presidencies as well as served as Stake Media Director and other stake callings.
The church has always been a tremendous support network for my family and me, especially in our times of need. However, as I’ve begun to learn more about our church history and have looked for support and answers to help me reconcile my faith with historical facts I have been met with skeptisism, accusation, labels and potential loss of callings and temple recommend. The loss of my “unconditional” support system has been almost as paimful as the realization that my history is not as I believed.
My request of the church would be to help me get support system back. I intend to find a path to reconcile my faith and hope with my new historical understanding and within the safety of my ward seems, logically, to be the best place to do that. Unfortunately, there is no forum for me to do that within the current organization. THIS is the point in my life where I need the uncondition love and support of my ward more than ever before. I pray that the church can foster and encourage reconciliation for members like me instead of creating more fear and pain and confusion.
You probably have more than you need an d this might be too late but I’ll pile on just so I can ‘say my peace.’
* Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church.
I am a disaffected BIC, RM Temple married father of 3. I no longer believe the Church is what it claims to be based on information I found info online and in books I have read (6+ years worth of study). I no longer see the leaders as any more inspired than anyone else and think sometimes in an effort to preserve an outmoded faith tradition they do things that are really wrong and harmful. I began having question as a teen but shelved them til my mid 30s when I began researching on the internet. Finding the real history made me feel angry and betrayed by an organization that I had given years of my life to. Since that time my anger has subsided some but I still resent what I see as the Church’s dishonesty about it’s history and doctrines. I think there are good things in Mormonism but I feel that the dishonesty and some of the teachings (and actions) of the Church outweigh the good. Good can be found outside the Church as well. I am and will likely always be culturally Mormon but I am more as well.
* What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide.
I have to look at things logically. It’s how I am built. The Church instead encourages belief even when the evidence does not support it. Respect for authority and tradition trumps respect for truth IMO. Unfortunately the Church is not mature enough yet to allow for different thought and belief. I would maybe consider attending for family and community if I was allowed to openly speak about my what I believe—or more accurately what I don’t believe. If the Church focused less on the Restoration, Joseph Smith and authority and more on the teachings attributed to Jesus, love, grace, forgiveness and service it would be more relevant to me. Currently orthodoxy, conformity obedience and “knowing” are paramount in the Church. If you can’t give that you are essentially told to be quiet.
* How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has).
Mormon Stories and other online sources have helped me to have a less black and white view of belief and faith. Learning a more accurate history of the Church has helped me understand that it is run by fallible men. I see that I have to be more responsible for belief and actions and not just rely on others to tell me what I should believe and how I should live. For years I felt like I was on the fringes of Mormonism despite my best attempts to be believe the same and fit in. Mormon Stories and other sources like it help me realize that I am not alone and the importance of being true to who I am.
*******************************
Good luck, John.
Mormon stories was 50% of my inoculation. It was the 1of 2 faith based forums I found best to get answers to my testimony questions. I combined its slightly overly skeptical views with FAIR’s overly protective views to get a truthful and balanced education on the church. My quickly atrophying spiritual roots are now stronger and deeper than every before. Therefore, to me, Mormon Stories is only half of the answer. It was my counterweight in the scale for a balanced view of the church that you can’t get solely from FAIR.
My sister and parents and I are converts to the church. We all joined when I was 12 years old, and since we have all left the church, but none has resigned or been excommunicated. I was the last to go.
For me the church quit being real. It seems more like a business now, more concerned with numbers and to-do lists and reporting to the uppers. Even the members – most of whom are wonderful people – only seem to care, really care, about other members. I’ve noticed that, in general, the members that are loving to everyone are those who are not so orthodox. The community of MormonStories and other groups who consist of members who care about the church but no longer can find a place for themselves in it (they feel unwanted or excluded) are the most wonderful people that I have had a chance to associate with. We come in all varieties but still can have a civil, non-judgemental and open-minded discussion on any topic. It is very refreshing.
Finding Mormon Stories was like finding a lost treasure.
I had expressed to my wife my doubts about the church just weeks before I discovered Mormon Stories. Upon telling her of my doubts our marriage pretty much ended within hours of that announcement. For about 15 months straight after that she would say the most hateful and horrible things imaginable about my character and my integrity; all over having doubt about the church, nothing more. This would happen about every other day. It got to the point that I couldn’t bear it.
One day I listened to a MS podcast with Jacque who was a member whose husband had left the church. It was so wonderful that I told my wife about it that afternoon. I was sure that she would listen to it and have the same feelings that Jacque did. I think she made it about 10 minutes in and refused to listen to any more. She thought it was dark (??) and that Jacque was too liberal for her to relate to. Then she looked at the topics of some of the other podcasts on the MS site and was sure that it was an anti-mormon site. The church had done very *well* in keeping her frightened away from anything that would welcome open discussion of church-like topics.
Then not long after that another podcast was put up with Laurie and Dan. They were similar to Jacque except that the roles of the husband and wife were switched, and in this podcast both Dan and Laurie discussed how they felt about the transition. Again it was wonderful, but this time I did not share it with my wife. It gave me hope where I knew there was none, but it made me feel much better.
Probably the most valuable thing I got from MS was the on-line friendships with a whole range of individuals who were open to discuss most any topic. They are exceptional people who are very non-judgmental and caring and supportive. There have been many times that the only people who I have felt comfortable talking to about certain topics were these people. Had I brought up these questions or ideas with my best LDS friends, I am sure that I would have frightened them away.
So I am grateful for Mormon Stories. It has given me strength and comfort when I could get it no where else. Thanks, John.
I found Mormon Stories after I became increasingly bored with church lessons. I joined the church 10 years ago and threw myself into study of the gospel. After years of hearing and reading the same thing repeated (i.e. correlation), I yearned for more in depth, interesting and illuminating study into the complexities of life and the gospel. That led me to wrestle with some of the big issues of our day. Namely, we need as a church to figure out how to love and support homosexuals in a way pleasing to the Lord. Throwing them out of their homes or congregations is not the answer. The other large issue for me is that the church also needs to begin seeing women as whole people capable of being mothers and wives as well as contributing members of their communities through paid employment. Church policies related to women with children have been so isolating and led me to feel not welcome in my church as I have sought to determine the course of my and my family’s life. What the Spirit has told me and what the church has told me have been two very different things. My experience puts me out of the norm to where I need to keep quiet at church in respect those around me, yet I still need a community of supporting and loving people who understand what its like to be different. Mormon Stories has provided that though its on the internet. However, it is better for me than continuing on the way I was. Listening to the podcasts has challenged to me to accept people where they are, to be willing to go further in discerning truth, and try to be a voice of compassion and insight into some of the groups who struggle with church culture and policies. If there were any thing that I could ask of the church, it would be 1) to provide a post-correlation track of classes for church members who are ready for the “meat of the gospel” and 2) encourage leaders of the church on all levels to listen without judgement to the struggles of church members who find themselves outside the church mold and instead to view them as members earnestly trying to make sense of human’s limited understanding of the complexities of life.
Oh please. This is when I start wondering who is real and who is not. The Church does not throw homosexuals out of their homes or congregations. Perhaps if people like you stopped soaking up Anti-LDS trash, you’d find REAL truth, not these silly fallacies.
LDSMan,
Are you here to make a point or post anything intelligent or useful? Or are you on here just to trash others in an extremely un-Christlike manner?
If you are a stalwart member of the church, you are representing yourself in a horrible manner. Who on earth would want to even know you let alone associate with you?
You are an example of Mormonism at its worst!!
John asked for honest experiences with the church and with his podcasts and he has received over 400 of them thus far.
How about some honestly, compassion and reason from you instead of trollish, ridiculous, transparent comments?
It is better to be misinformed than to be unkind.
Words can’t adequately express how hurt and confused and angry I am at the thought of John Dehlin possibly facing church discipline. He could be me, or many others of us active Mormons who are thinking, questioning, and seeking truth. Why is open thought and dialogue such a threat?
I found Mormon Stories several years ago and have held onto it like the Iron Rod, taking great comfort and finding strength in the fact that there ARE people like me even in the Church, who question and doubt and who seek truth beyond what is taught on Sundays and every April and October. There are people with more liberal political views than the ones I hear spoken about at church. There are people who are gay or who have family and friends who are gay and who do not agree with the church’s role in Prop 8. There are people who struggle, but who hold on to their faith because of the blessings and good they see in their lives becasue of gospel living. Because of Mormon Stories and John Dehlin, I feel hopeful and less alone in my church.
After stumbling across much literature in Kirtland, Ohio, in an honest effort to learn more about church history, I felt blind-sided. For example, I only knew of Joseph’s marriage to Emma and maybe Eliza, I think. My eyes were opened. After that, it was hard to close them. But I trust God. Despite the doubts I have had, I know that God loves me. I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ. I am trying to live the gospel and stay active in the church. I am a returned sister missionary. I have a good husband and four children. We go to church each week.
But without a safe place like Mormon Stories, I think I would have a much harder time staying active in the church. I have found incredible support here that I don’t get while serving as a primary teacher in my ward. I have been able to understand issues that I previously did not understand and the podcasts have been key in helping me stay active in the church. I want to stay in the church; but if people who I love are disciplined and leave the church for simply putting a voice to my concerns and the concerns of so many others, then I don’t know how I will find the support I need to stay.
Thank you,. John, for the work you do in building bridges and helping me understand more about the church, myself, and other people.
“the thought of John Dehlin possibly facing church discipline”
I have no idea if this meeting John has tonight has anything to do with discipline. I hope it doesn’t.
I will say this though….if John is disciplined then I have little hope for any of those doubting or disaffected on the fringes of the Church. IMO John has been about as open, forthcoming and respectful as possible in his work. If the Church cannot allow this sort of thing to continue then obviously any hope of any meaningful and honest discussion of issues or outreach on the Church’s part is out of the question.
In the end such action would really hurt the Church IMO. One step forward, two steps back.
I agree. For all we know, the meeting is really just a
“getting to know you” meeting, since John is a man of
influence. It’s an interesting commentary on the culture that the mere
suggestion of a meeting makes most people assume disciplinary action. I’m
trying to suspend judgment, but the very thought of disciplinary action toward
John has made me sick to my stomach and not feeling like going to the
activities I normally do this week.
In a similar way that believing members expend a lot of energy dealing with the
cognitive dissonance between their faith and certain facts they learn about, I
expend a lot of energy trying to see the church in a positive light at certain times.. I choose to see it as a viable vehicle for an
authentic relationship with God and a spiritual path toward personal spiritual
evolution toward becoming pure light.
Whenever I see evidence that the church has had a damaging influence on
a person’s life, I remind myself that religion is not alone in its potential to
serve its intended purpose or thwart its intended purpose. Medicine can make
you sick or heal you. Schooling can educate you or misinform you. Religion can facilitate a spiritual path or
damage your connection to your own spirit. I try
to remind myself that no matter how many people I see getting hurt, that doesn’t
mean that it’s impossible for some people to have a healthy relationship with
God through the church. It depends on
the relationship between the individual and the church.
I’m in a constant tug-o-war between my best vision of the
church and my worst vision of it. I
personally feel happier and more comfortable maintaining a positive view of
it. My tone is negative right now
because lately I’ve been slipping in that endeavor. Just too many people I love deeply who are
hurting deeply.
As articulated in previous posts, John is kind of a symbol
for honesty, open-ness, integrity, and tireless diplomacy and sensitivity. He’s a bridge-builder and a peace-maker. If the church were to make him unwelcome, it
would send a huge message to many many others that they are not welcome, and I
include myself in that group. I think it
would be a final blow to me that would force me toward my worst fears about
what the church really is.
I didn’t say these things earlier because I don’t want to be
a dramatic fear-monger. But I hope that if John is disciplined, it will be a
clarifying moment for a lot of people. I hope that there will be a public
outcry. In the end, though, clarity is good for everybody. The church is going through growing pains,
trying to adjust to the age if the internet and the growing cultural ethic of
authentically respecting differences. If the church chooses not to embrace new forms of open
dialogue, then it will draw a line in the sand. Perhaps new communities will
form.
Of the luminaries that I’ve heard say that the age of proselyting
is over and that there can be no “one right way” and that it is not for us to
put limits on God’s grace or decide who will be saved, that our priority is on
getting along between the faiths, are Pope John Paul, Mother Theresa, Oprah
Winfrey, Joel Olstein, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and even Jerry Fallwell for
goodness sake.
Open dialogue is the order of the day. In my opinion that’s
a manifestation of increasing maturity on the part of humanity. John Dehlin is a pioneer, an exemplary
example, and the embodiment of the best that Mormonism can be. If Mormonism doesn’t embrace his work and his
example, I suspect that many will no longer be able to embrace Mormonism.
I have gone from total belief to, very recently, non-belief in the space of about 3 years. The Mormon Stories approach of a respectful but frank approach to the issues we all deal with has been priceless. The Facebook community around Mormon Stories has been the support structure that the church could not be for me.
Although doctrinal and other issues have only been a problem for me over the course of these 3 years, I have been bored in church for at least a decade. Church was not only intellectually boring, but spiritually not edifying. I’m not an outgoing person and most of my valued social interactions are with family and friends that I’ve known for years, and so socially the church was a drain on me as well.
My journey toward disbelief (though I did not know the destination) started when I decided to take my spiritual stagnation seriously, and instead of living a clean but spiritually empty life with 3 hours of Sunday boredom I started studying and thinking about church, gospel, and what I believe (and still bored for 3 hours on Sunday). I spent hours each week engaging with others online, reading, and listening to podcasts like Mormon Stories.
My best years in the church were my years as a youth. I loved seminary. I loved the dinner-table talks my family had about deep doctrines and history, though we knew not a fraction of what I know now. I loved the Know Your Religion seminars. My stake president was a scientist who gave fascinating and thought-filled sermons. Our stake dances and other stake activities like road shows were amazing. We were only a handful of LDS youth in high school, and we were a fairly tight-knit group. The church was my life. I look around now and I don’t see that happening for the youth in my wards, let alone the adults. Was I in an extraordinary ward as a youth, or have things gone downhill since then? I don’t know, but I know that unless something drastic changes the church will never again be for me what it was for me then. Combined with my disbelief in the truth claims, The best I can hope for is that the church will stop villainizing disbelief and provide a place for me to participate with my believing spouse and kids.
I’m active in the church these days, but likely would not be had I not discovered Mormon Stories. At a time when I had lost considerable trust in the institution because of the church’s actual history, Mormon Stories helped me see that there was still much that was positive and beneficial in the church.
Today, many of the historical issues in the church don’t bother me that much – I accept that everyone and thus the institutions which they lead, serve in, or participate in, are imperfect and make mistakes. And I’m ok with that. Mormon Stories episodes, such as those with Richard Bushman and others, helped me arrive at this point.
What distresses me most about the church today are its cultural elements – a culture that has been created both bottom-up and top-down. We place such a high premium on conformity that people with untraditional beliefs, different backgrounds, viewpoints, or even different colored shirts often feel unwelcome or second-class at church. Many of these people, contrary to popular myth, are trying to obey the commandments and have not been offended; many of them simply feel that they don’t fit the church mold. We often feel that we must sit on our hands with our mouths shut during our meetings.
Another manifestation of this conformity problem is the phenomenon in which those with questions about historical and doctrinal issues have nowhere to turn for answers. The official answers by the church (pray, read scriptures, fast, have more faith) aren’t helpful and offer no understanding of the issues at question, and local leaders, bless them, are often under-informed and under-qualified to deal with such questions. Well-intentioned, compassionate, and even inspired they may be, but a faith crisis is traumatic; helping someone in the midst of one requires more training than our leaders presently receive.
My hope for the church is that its leaders will signal their welcoming embrace of members across the belief spectrum. I hope that it will be more open about some of the sticky historical issues, and create church sanctioned forums in which these questions can be discussed without fear of repercussions, being ostracized, or being scolded. I hope that the church – at the general level and at the local level – will move away from legalism and minutia and, as Joseph Smith called them “the appendages” of the gospel and move toward a focus on the mortal life and ministry, death and resurrection of the Savior.
I am a lifelong active member of the church. I have also been a lifelong questioner. When presented with challenging information it is difficult to know where to turn. The church often provides a very sugar-coated viewpoint that doesn’t satisfy some of the more difficult questions (neither do apologetics). We are brought up in the church not to delve into anti-Mormon literature, but there are limited sources to find true information regarding LDS history, etc. Anti-Mormon sources often present information in a biased and angry manner which can lead truth seekers to feelings of being betrayed by the church. Mormon Stories has been a great “middle of the road” resource which discusses challenging information in a more productive way than either side has been able to do.
The church recently revealed it is losing a good number of young adult members. I believe this is partially due to the digital era and the difficult information that is so abundant and easy to come across. The church does not provide adequate resources to help people navigating a crisis of faith spurred by discovering this information. Further, I believe people in this situation are leery of official church answers due to perception of bias. Mormon Stories is a more neutral (but still often faithful) arena where people can explore their beliefs and navigate through tough decisions.
The existence alone of this type of resource is invaluable to members of the church who are questioners or who happen across difficult information. Additionally the incredible interviews produced by Mormon Stories expose listeners to insights seldom gained anywhere else.
Mormon Stories has meant a great deal to me personally. It has contributed to improving my relationship with my brother who has left the church. I better understand his reasons for leaving and he understands my reasons for staying. I am less inclined to have knee-jerk reactions when presented with difficult information. I am better able to withhold judgement and be more confident in my own values and beliefs, as well as see good where there is good to be found. Perhaps most importantly, I feel that Mormon Stories increases EMPATHY on both sides of the spectrum. It humanizes both the “bitter ex-Mormons” and the “naive true believing Mormons”.
John Dehlin has been nothing but sincere and respectful in his approach. He remarkably exhibits passion without hostility. I’m confident that he has helped to improve thousands of relationships (marriages, friendships, family, etc.) between people that hold opposing views to each other. He has also helped many people stay in and/or keep affection for the church they feel betrayed by. John is a very valuable and helpful member to the Mormon community.
I could go on forever on this thread, but I will try to be very brief.
I’ve listened to Moromon Stories for two year. I’ve listened to every one, multiple times. They have kept me sane and healthy (physically).
I need honesty from the Church. It terms of its history, its finances, its doctrine, etc. At Mormon Stories, we hear from people who are above all else, seeking honesty. Sometimes it’s hard, but we can accept that. John has always tried to present the truth, to the best of his ability – or explicitly state he is working on less than total knowledge.
I need acceptance from the Church. I may not think the same – perhaps I take longer to learn. I may not believe the same, maybe I will someday. But the Church refuses to accept any differences (wierd from a Christian body that emphasizes differences), at least that has been my experience from bishops and stae presidents.
For now, continuing connection to the Church is painful for my wife, several sons and me. I’m not ready to give up, yet, but I have to protect myself first. Mormon Stories lets me stay connected in some way.
Sorry, forgot background info.
Mid 50s, BIC, multiple BYU degrees, married in temple, 5 sons, TBM until 50, always had questions, but willing to wait for awhile, service in bishoprics and stake callings.
Perhaps too late to share for the intended purpose but I’ll share for whatever other purposes it may serve…
Mormon stories is quite amazing – wonderful in fact. But there is still some hesitation in my full support – yet as I type this I know that I’ll be donating soon. I’ll try to explain below.
I’m a “true believer” in that I don’t know– but believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught and received by me and as experienced within my involvement in the LDS church and in the world. I serve in callings and bare my testimony and I value my faith in Christ as I’ve experienced both doctrinally and in fellowship with community (LDS and non). Teachings from the scriptures, prophets, Sunday school teachers, my parents, and fellowship with members has been a beautiful and rewarding part of my life and I look forward to that continuing. I also have had faith challenges (some resolved and some not) many having to do with teachings from the prophets, the scriptures, parents, as well as fellowship with community (LDS and non).
Raised as a semi-liberal Mormon (read centrist) by very faithful parents, I was already at odds with the stereotypical Mormon community in terms of political leanings and was somewhat comfortable with that dynamic. For years I considered myself a believing Mormon that just disagreed with Mormon culture and politics. There were certain doctrinal things that were difficult but faith (and security) was sufficient to override some doctrinal and cultural baggage. But I soon began to hear testimonies through very cynical and judgmental ears. Some might call it reason or logic some might call it “ears that would not hear.” For myself I look back and call it a little of both. I rolled my eyes when I heard fellow ward members stand at the pulpit and say, “I know that…” I began to wonder for the first time what it might be like to not be an active member of church. This was during the midst of what I’d call my mini faith crisis – which lasted several years.
During this time I went back to grad school to study to become a therapist. I was a recovered addict myself and my experience in recovery as well as in studying and practicing therapy was exciting and enriching in many ways. This time brought me new and resonating concepts of human behavior and healing that challenged my faith and values. Interestingly this led me intellectually away from and back to the LDS gospel. I feel that I became less cynical and judging of my fellow ward members and others whose truth claims and self righteousness I had allowed affect me previously. For me, it led to increased faith in my concept of Jesus which in turn led me to incorporate aspects of mindfulness meditation, radical acceptance (as integral to repentance), dialecticism, social justice, and other “uncorrelated” truths into my discipleship and to be comfortable to share this with others. My testimony of and experience with what I feel to be the atonement became real for me again and in a new exciting way. I felt privileged to feel that Christ could use me and many people on this world (LDS and non (and John D.– to add to the deserved hero worship going on here)) to be his hands in the glorious work of peace.
I stumbled across Mormon Stories after reading an article by Joanna Brooks and then googling her name and mormonstories popped up. Being a semi-liberal Mormon, recovered porn addict, current addiction therapist, who practices meditation as part of my worship; it’s not hard to see that mormonstories seems to be speaking pretty clearly to me. Yet – there is hesitation for me. There is something that pulls me back when I have considered donating or telling certain family and friends about the site (still I have turned several onto the site). The validation for disaffected members is amazing. The non judgment and openness to different ways of being is fabulous and the insight given to those struggling through crisis in faith and marriages is unlike anything out there.
Yet as a true believing member who has regular discussions with smart, articulate, believing members who value their faith and their freedom to explore ideas I think some would be impatient with the uncorrelated community (as I am at times). Maybe it’s because my faith crisis led me back to the church with more faith than I had before. I wonder if friends of min would feel condescended too, patronized or judged? Would they feel looked down on for knowing troubling facts about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon but still believing? But more importantly would they have time to engage in the breadth of material and online community when there is so much that needs to get done in families, work, church callings, etc. Regular brainwashed mormons do a lot of service for each other.
Maybe you can guess that the above questions are me asking myself these things.
Either way, I keep coming back, and I personally believe that this website is a good and great thing. But I also feel that I have been blessed to find opportunities to grow in spirit and intellect within my family, ward and the “correlated” LDS church. If the community becomes an echo chamber for disaffected mormons I believe it will serve only validation that turns into yeasaying rather than vital validation coupled with challenging one’s self.
From what I’ve experienced, the mormonstories podcasts and community are both validating and challenging, a great recipe for growth and continued success that I feel glad to contribute to (as long as it doesn’t get in the way of my other family and priesthood opportunities).
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG
I need my wife to stop hating me for being a non-literal believer!!!
By most accounting I am a great man, not an adulterer, stable, hard working…BUT I have liberalized my religious views and my wife shrinks away from me like I am a sinner but I maintain that I am still that sweet boy that went on a mission, BYU, held all the callings, and have broadened my views.
Why should I suddenly, through no fault of my own, become a “sinner” in my wife’s mind for not clinging to an infantile world view. This could destroy my marriage someday but I am trying desperately to hold things together with patience and love.
Garden, I can’t think of how much pain you are in, but I thought of a conversation I had recently with my daughter (and my sons, who, once the conversation got started, couldn’t stop listening…)
Mom, do you think Eve was really created from a rib?
No, but I think the Lord really told Moses that. I don’t think a lot of Genesis is literally true, especially not the part about the rib, because I think God has always been dealing with primitive peoples and God isn’t going to tell Moses about science, he just wanted to tell Moses about what HE, God, wanted to talk about. It was a baby-story for a primitive man, and it was a generally good piece of guidance for a long time. God teaches very basic principles, and doesn’t want us tied up in details. God doesn’t want the son who says “yes, I will work in the field” who talks and leaves, he wants the one who even says “No,” but gets to work. Life isn’t about clinging to some detail, which maybe even God explained but which wasn’t ever completely true, it was what GOD wanted to talk about. I don’t sweat the small stuff. I don’t look too hard at details,
I just look at my fellow man and work on being a good contributor to the world so that when I die and God asks me “Where did your love for your fellow man stop and why?” I don’t have to be ashamed. That’s what I keep my eye on.
I find that answer works for a lot of things.
(Pardon) — my comment was only on one way that I have found to cope with “literalism” —
all the rest of the real problem you discussed, Garden, I sure don’t have an answer for.
Bryan here (Crystal’s husband).
When her sister and brother-in-law left the church one and a half years ago, her sister sent an email explaining her reasons but also a link to a John Dehlin YouTube video about people leaving the church. Others in the family labeled it anti and I believe they never watched it. Unsure of the exact content I prayed mightily and watched. And I am so glad I did. The most important message in that video was that we should love as Christ did and love those who are leaving unconditionally. UNCONDITIONALLY.
Those in the family who missed that message John had put together assailed her sister and husband with angry tirades and verbal abuse. But because of that message and guidance from my wife’s mentor, we were able to love her sister and husband even though we didn’t agree with their choice.
May God bless this man whose purpose in life is to bring love to those who are trodden under feet of men.
My wife and I have left the church, we no longer attend. But we allowed our children the choice of what they wanted to do, and we respected our two teenage daughters’ choices to continue attending. This means we are in constant interaction with the church, not only in our daughters’ ward but also with our extended families. When we left it could have been easy to get stuck in a negative place, to feel animosity and anger towards the church, as often seems to be the case. But John Dehlin was instrumental in showing us that things weren’t all black and white, and while we disagree with the church on a number of important issues, we can also see the good in the church. This has helped us immensely in our relationships with our daughters, their church leaders and our extended families.
John Dehlin has literally made a difference in our lives and in our relationship with the church. What he does is provide a “place” that is incredibly rare in the LDS church, one where people who are not traditional believers can have the space and time to figure out what they believe and what they want. It allows them to recognize that you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Too often in the church we are told it is all true, or it is all false. That is a false dichotomy, and John has helped people to understand that they can choose to participate and accept some things and reject others. The alternative is often leaving all together, and that can be devastating to families and individuals.
Assuming revelation is ongoing, answers to the following questions would really help me and others like me preserve our testimonies:
(1) Why was Joseph’s translation of the Book of Abraham (including the facsimiles) completely different than the content of the Egyptian funeral scrolls from which he translated, even though Joseph claimed that those Egyptian scrolls were “written by the hand of Abraham”?
(2) Why was it okay for Joseph Smith to send his buddies on missions then secretly marry their wives while they were gone, threaten young teenagers and their families with loss of eternal salvation if they did not marry older men, tell Emma that an anger of God would kill her if she did not let Smith engage in polygamy, lie to the church about polygamy and polyandry, etc.?
(3) Why have the people who the Church previously claimed to be the Lamanites been proven to have no genetic links to the old-world whatsoever: rather they descend from Asian ancestry?
(4) Why does the church now claim to not know who the Lamanites are, even though the D&C and modern day prophets taught, on numerous occasions, that the American Indians and Central American natives were, in fact, Lamanites?
(5) Why did numerous of Joseph Smith’s and Brigham Young’s prophecies fail to come true (such as the Second Coming occurring in the rising generation, the Jackson County Temple being built in the rising generation, the Kirkland Bank prophecies, prophecies that Polygamy would be on the earth through the Second Coming, the Civil War would not end slavery, blacks would be slaves until the millennium, etc.)?
(6) Why were key parts of the original temple ceremony (some of which were later dropped or changed) were copied directly from the Masons?
(7) Why do the actual charitable contributions made by the church equate to only 1%-2% of its annual tithing revenue alone (many corporations donate at least this much of their profits to charity)—yet the church can afford to build a $2-$3 billion mall–is this how Jesus would spend his money?
(8) Why doesn’t the church openly disclose its financial dealings, like it did until 1959 and like almost every other large church in America does?
(9) Why do many of the supposedly eternal doctrines, taught by prophets in general conference, changed or were abandoned throughout time (i.e. Adam-God Doctrine, Blood Atonement, Sun and Moon inhabited, etc. etc. etc.)?
(10) Why have many Mormon prophets taught that many old testament claims were literally true despite contradictory scientific evidence (Noah’s Arc/the global flood, tower of Babel, Earth being 7,000 years old, etc)?
(11) Why did Joseph Smith produce several, very contradictory accounts of the first vision?
(12) Why would God deliberately stack the evidence against certain aspects of the Gospel, then expect us to rely on nebulous feelings and impressions that aren’t unique to his doctrines?
(13) How do you explain the fact that millions of members of other faiths believe the spirit has revealed the truth of their churches to them? Why are their spiritual experiences less valid than those of Mormons’ spiritual experiences?
(14) Do you really believe that you are right in your belief that the LDS church is the only “true” church, and the other 99.8% of the earth’s population who do not believe that Mormons have the fullness of God’s word are wrong?
Many people (including me) lose our testimonies over questions such as these. In the early days of the church, there seemed to be a real effort address the religious issues of the day with revelation and real, substantive doctrine…now I feel as though we are asked to take everything on “faith” and the Church seems to ignore serious issues troubling many people. But faith is belief in things which are not seen, it is not the denial of evidence that we do see. It is not the absence of evidence that cause people to question, but the contradictory evidence.
If the Church can’t or won’t answer these questions officially, it should at least create a safe harbor/place for us to discuss them. That is the role Mormon Stories plays. Many of us initially pinned our hopes on FAIR or FARMS, only to watch the apologetic arguments fall apart before our eyes. When we bring our concerns to Bishops or Stake Presidents, we are asked not to discuss our doubts with others (including family members). The absence of a safe place to discuss these issues (like Mormon Stories) would only drive us onto antagonistic online forums that are critical of the church, hastening our “apostasy.”
Wow. I have been amazed at all the comments here. I haven’t been able to keep up with them, there are so many. I think it is obvious that John Dehlin has had a very large impact on many people in a positive way. I am currently active in the church, born and raised, served a mission, and hold a calling today.
When I first encountered Mormon Stories, I was starting to have doubts about many of the things I was taught in the church growing up. I had heard about most of the tough issues, but did not feel like I was very well informed on many/any of them. I started to feel uncomfortable saying “I know the church is the only true church on the face of the earth,” and I thought naively that if I learned more about the history of the church, my testimony would finally grow to where I could say “I know.” Unfortunately, the opposite happened – I became more unsure of my testimony, and less sure about the “only true church.” While John’s work in some ways sent me down this path, I feel like my faith crisis was ultimately inevitable. So I don’t blame John for causing a sort of change in my faith. What I do credit him with is helping me feel like I was not alone, and that my questions and doubts were valid; that I did not have to leave or throw away all of my faith and my past because of these difficult issues. He helped me realize that there are people out there, in and out of the church, who are aware of these things, who will happily and in a Christ-like way, listen to my questions and concerns, and not judge me, or tell me to just pray and read my scriptures, and stop worrying about all of this. If I did not have these resources, my faith journey may have become a lot more ugly than it did.
While I acknowledge the many problems in church history, and other issues that I struggle with (some women’s issues, prop 8, follow the prophet mentality, etc.), I recognize the enormous amount of good the church does, not only in my life, but in the lives of millions, and I am still proud to consider myself a Mormon.
I hope everything works out. I don’t think this meeting is to threaten disciplinary action, or anything of that sort. One thing that I am extremely grateful to Mormon Stories for is the wide variety of voices that have come on and sat down with John, especially the former Mormons. I think one of my main concerns with the church today is how ignorant and lacking in empathy we are for those who leave. When someone is excommunicated or disfellowshipped, we are made to feel like they have somehow left the faith to do business with the devil. When I actually got to listen to voices like those of Margaret and Paul Toscano, Michael Quinn, Richard Dutcher, and others, I learned that these are regular people. I don’t need to fear them, or avoid them.
What I probably have learned the most thanks to John is that while the church does so much good, it has the potential to harm and hurt many, and it has. I wish the church would be a little more willing to change and try to avoid that sort of outcome in the future. John has helped me have empathy for people who lose their faith, to not judge, to realize that the church doesn’t work for everyone, and leaving the church does not equal becoming a sinner.
Well, I could go on and on. But I think there isn’t much else to say. Thanks, John, for all the work you do. You are an inspiration to us all.
I’m the wife of a former bishop. It was just a years ago, during my husband’s tenure, that I finally came to the conclusion that I could no longer believe the LDS Church was what it purported to be: namely, God’s only true Church on earth with sole authority to administer ordinances of salvation. It was not an easy decision to come to. It came during a time of deep depression caused by my doubts. While I appreciated some of the teachings of the BoM, I’d never been a great fan of Joseph Smith, and, in 2005, everything was” Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith.” My paradigm to explain the unexplainable had always been the “the church is true, I just don’t have the knowledge to understand this or that.” That answer never gave me any peace. Eventually, I dared to change my paradigm and say to myself, “what if the church isn’t “true” in the sense that the leaders say it is?” Once I did this, everything fell into place and peace of mind entered my life.
Of course, there was still the need to tell my bishop, who was also my husband. At one TR interview with him, I was in tears and repeated again and again, “I don’t know, I don’t” know,” to all the “belief” questions. He asked if I hoped it was true; i couldn’t even say that.
There was alot of anger during that time. Although I loved my ward and still do, I was angry at alot that was said, in testimony meetings, in regular SM, in RS, in our empty nester group.
It was during that time that I posted on an online blog about myself and mentioned my husband. Not long after, I received a private message from John Dehlin asking if we’d be comfortable meeting with him. We meet some time later. Over dinner, John helped me evaluate the good church had brought into my life over a period of 40 years since my conversion. I made a list. John helped put me in touch with scores of members who feel what I feel, think the way I do. My anger dissipated.
I can now sit in any church meeting without any animosity toward the speakers. I truly understand how some can believe–some far more educated than I–and I not. I can have compassion on them and can only hope for the same in return. Following a recent session of Stake Conference, I told my husband how much I had enjoyed the SP’s comments, which frankly could be seen as obnoxious and in your face (lots of brothers and sisters, if you don’t live this or that commandment, just start doing it! it’s easy). My husband was shocked that I liked it and said he was actually cringing wondering what my reaction would be. I told him I only have love for our dear SP because I know of his sincerity; he is an absolute believer and I respect him for it. I just don’t believe and am ok with it.
Gone is the anger, gone is the guilt, gone is the judging of others and instead now there’s great peace in my heart. I credit John Dehlin with helping me find that peace. I’m active in my ward, I have a calling I fulfill every Sunday.
John’s work had kept many in the church who would have walked out when they started reading and finding out church facts they’d never before heard about.
John is a loving individual who has devoted an unbelievable amount of time and energy feeding “the one.”
MDS, if you don’t mind a personal question: as you can tell by my moniker, I am in just that same place of doubt that you were. I am on the precipice of having to renew my TR and am wondering if indeed your Bishop (husband) felt okay about renewing your TR in light of your responses to the questions? Not that my own Bishop will respond in kind, but I would appreciate any insight into where that kind of honesty in a TR interview leads. I live the standards, it’s just the belief questions that are troublesome.
Thanks.
dont_know_mo–My husband himself is a non-traditional believer. He’s a scientist who believes that empirical evidence is necessary in order to “know” something, so when I told him I didn’t know, and he asked if I hoped, he said that’s where he was, he hoped that it was true. He does believe in God, because, he says, that’s the only way he can explain love. As the bishop’s wife I was to be interviewed by the SP, not a counselor and I dreaded that interview but when I went, the SP delegated to a counselor because he had to do a pre-wedding interview. The counselor was a kind man who had no reason to doubt my faith so he didn’t ask the questions–I got a pass. That said, anyone who went to my husband with feelings similar to mine got the same treatment I received, he didn’t make an exception for me. He was a very loving and accepting bishop and I’ve had alot of ward members tell me how some of their children would probably have left the church during their teen years, had they had a different bishop.
DH is a direct descendant from a prominent church family and has known about the warts since his youth. He recognizes them and doesn’t believe in the literal interpretation of the BoM. We’ve always been a Sunstone, Dialogue kind of house. I don’t think i’ve ever heard him say we’re going to do something because the prophet–or any church leader– said we should. For example, he didn’t read the BoM when President Hinckley told the church to. He just doesn’t get into that sort of thing.
Good luck with your journey.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I guess I was wondering if there is anything in the CHI 1 that prohibits a PH leader from extending a TR to someone who hasn’t received a spiritual witness (just doesn’t “know”) vs. having to give an affirmative answer.
My perfect storm happened two years ago. I was in a very demanding YW calling and had been for several years. I dreaded going to church and activities because I was asked to do so much. I had two small children and my husband was in a demanding job that kept him working late hours. I had also been noticing that Jesus wasn’t mentioned in the church very often. I decided I needed to develop a personal relationship with him in addition to regular church stuff. Then my mom and I went to Hawaii for Mother’s Day with my two kids. On Mother’s day two years ago, we decided to skip church and go to a Mother’s Day brunch and swimming at the pool instead of to the local LDS church. It was my best Mother’s Day ever. I wondered why I enjoyed it so much when it wasn’t spent in the lord’s house. When I returned from that trip, I decided that I needed to give homeschooling my kids a better try. I had taken them out of school in January because my oldest turned 7 and I wanted him to know all about the church before he was baptized. After homework and other activities, there was little time for church instruction. We had been slacking in our homeschooling all around, so it was back to the grindstone after our trip. I realized that I didn’t know much about church history as I would like and began to research. My world was flipped upside down.
Here I am two years later. Because of this wonderful podcast I have not felt so alone in my journey. I still attend church with my husband and have a calling, but only consider myself a cultural mormon. I don’t believe a word of it. I could not have survived without this podcast. It has shown me that there are other ways to be mormon. The world is NOT black and white as I once thought. Thank you John Dehlin for all your hard work. You have given me hope when I had none. Audrey from Fairfax, VA
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints I have felt alone and isolated. I have always been one of the “Stalwarts” but found myself having good honest questions. What I found is that there is absolutely no outlet or forum in which it is safe to explore honest questions. The next step is to get frustrated and then you are looked upon with disdain and distrust. Questioning is not permitted even if those questions are being formed as a result of a deep desire to follow Jesus. NO DIFFERENCES AND NO DIFFERING ALLOWED.
My observation is this: The LDS church leadership seems to be always acting or reacting out of fear. Fear that the people aren’t smart enough to recognize truth. Fear that the leaders will lose the respect of others. Fear that the gospel of Christ isn’t enough to retain members. Fear that they will lose control. I find this sad.
Through Mormon Stories, it was comforting to know that there are many, many other LDS members that are thoughtful about their religion. Many are making a conscious decision to stay in their church despite their questions or even disagreements in some doctrine. I don’t always agree with every person that I listen to on the podcast, but that is the point! We can still discuss and listen. I am strong enough and close enough to Christ to follow what I perceive and believe to be true. I can respect the differences from others ‘and listen to their beliefs and concerns as well.
Sincerely,
R Maesato
I think that your having assumed the mantle of sheperding people who may be struggling is rather arrogant. I struggled for years. Didn’t need anyone to soothe any ruffled feathers. I just needed to learn humility.
Mark, let me translate your comments for you. You basically said that you didn’t need anyone to help you overcome your doubts because you were strong enough to overcome them on your own. Yeah dude, you’re REAL humble. Your statement isn’t arrogant at all [intense sarcasm].
Mark, everyone who doesn’t believe is not necessarily arrogant. That’s such a knee-jerk answer. I’m glad humility worked for you; some of us tried that for years and still didn’t get an answer. I’m judging your journey, don’t judge ours.
I’m NOT judging your journey!
I have been listening to John’s podcasts from the beginning. I believe his intention was to create a forum where people could share their stories. Helping people in transition came as an organic response to popular demand.
I grew up extremely active church (I was a RS president in a BYU ward, so that tells you the extent of my involvement) and have only recently (in my early 30′s) began to distance myself. I was overall happy with the church until my husband became disaffected a few years ago. Eventually I began to do my own research, and my thoughts and feelings about the history, doctrine, and culture, have really evolved since then. On one hand I love the culture and the people–and almost all of my family and friends are true believers. On the other hand, I feel really alone in regards to my feelings sometimes, and not at liberty to discuss them, which makes it painful and uncomfortable attending week after week. I plan on soon dropping off my attendance all together (and not having my kids baptized), which will be heartbreaking to my family. I have a lot of anxiety about that, but in the end it’s my life, not theirs.
I want equality for women. I want my daughters to know they can choose what they want to be and do. I want it to be “okay” that I don’t believe our church is the one and only true path to God or enlightenment. I want the emphasis on love and service rather than obedience and superiority. I want a shorter block on Sunday with more intellectual stimulation and more social interaction.
Mormon stories has been a gigantic help. It has helped me feel less alone. It has educated me in a lot of ways and is helping me understand and navigate this path I am on. Thank you so much John Dehlin and everyone who contributes to the podcast!
So I have gone through this long drawn out process on religion. It started at the core as a question about my own religion. And, finally I have ladned where I am comfortable.
See, they were telling me I could just remarry a second wife basically without a temple divorce, which is polygamy. Creepy huh? That led to about a year of intense research and learning what a crock of shit the whole thing was. I guess it is my fault I didn’t want to be a polygamist that I took my journey. Then I moved on and looked into being a Christian and well wow I learned it’s all a crock of shit. I really like the 9 pound 8 ounce baby Jesus version so I took that part really hard. I think in this information age where people with even half a brain can check things out for themselves religion has a real problem.
When my faith battled reality and lost, I reread the Bible a couple times, the whole Bible not just the verses others wanted me to read. And, you know what? That shit is scary and you should never ever under any circumstances do that if you like what you believe. Good hell I had no idea I was worshipping a God who had sent bears to maul and kill children for laughing at some old prophets baldhead. And, I really thought Moses was a hero until I read about him killing hundreds of thousands of people including children, yet keeping the virgins. I mean I would have kept the virgins don’t get me wrong. And, about that flood thing, God flooded the earth killing all of his children except for a boat builder’s family. Even I’m a better father and I don’t ask to be praised or worshipped, not that it wouldn’t be awesome.
Religions would have it that people don’t do much thinking. They want to do it for us. Doing any research into things is actually seen as a negative danger and a sign of being unfaithful. I agree with the last part since faith of course is the opposite of thinking. They would have you pray about it and commit to it without any critical thought and that makes you more faithful which makes you a better religious person aka follower. And, isn’t that what used car salesmen do? And we all know how they screw us, so I’m down with thinking and thinking a lot. My leaders are infamously known for saying crap like, “once the brethren have spoken the thinking is done”, and far worse “to much studying often leads people out of the church”. Well no shit. Human beings are naturally inquisitive and that is a good thing. They use guilt and fear to keep people from thinking. If it were a bad thing to think we would still believe the sun revolved around the earth, and we’d still be using candle light and walking to work. I vote for everyone thinking!
On faith, well faith is cool. Apply all you want after you man up and do the real work required to know something is actually true, then feel free to call it a virtue. And, on thinking, well, if it’s actually true and not a myth then it obviously should stand up to any inquiry and doesn’t. And about the emotional testimony thing, hey believe what you want, but please stop short of revealing your stupidity by saying it is true. I think back on so many I loved and respected now as just being morons unfortunately. Why leave that legacy to others because you lacked the courage, or were too lazy, to really know. And if you haven’t thought about how you think get off the backs of those who have and shut your trap.
After losing Christianity and my religion I buzzed right through about 10 of the 2,000 Gods and religions created by man. Some were pretty cool. Some teach some really great stuff. So do I think there is a God? I really haven’t reached a conclusion other than organized religion is silly and divisive. I’ll never forget the moment I realized evolution actually had nothing to do with monkeys turning into men. Religion has to keep you thinking its bullshit or they lose you. But, to be frank it shocked the hell right out of me. So I took a crack at atheism, but as we all know they have no cool songs, don’t believe in ghosts and other fun stuff, and are boring with all their scholarship, science and proof stuff.
I tried the ex this or that groups and wow super sorry you can’t get past it guys but I finally did so there is hope. I mean is whining about some false religion really going to help you live the life you envisioned? I know they serve a purpose, but shouldn’t they be more of a stopping off place? Yes is the correct answer, except in those communities you will find people stuck and people attempting to make cash off of them. One guy has even capitalized on it, and is trying to organize people who left my religion! For what really? Nothing. Okay he is about to become a psychologist so some smart clientele building. But, I say go fishing, go skiing, go buy a dirt bike and live life…move on get over it quit the stalking.
Whew, after all that I turned to good ole common sense. It was miraculous and life changing. I said the words that changed my life forever and felt the change deeply “I really don’t give a shit anymore”. I was given a new heart. I could feel the bullshit wash away. And eventually I knew Apatheism was right for me, and it wasn’t because it felt so good. And, no it isn’t that Apatheists do so much good and have such high moral values it has to be true.
Apatheism is a belief system whose followers don’t care if they, or others, believe in God or not. These people are also known as Europeans. An Apatheist finds that no established religion, or even Atheism or Agnosticism, fully satisfies them. So, rather than select one they choose to just not give a shit.
Apatheists do have trouble putting faith in a specific line of beliefs. If it’s a leap of faith that God can do things not in line with science, isn’t it also a leap of faith that God can’t? You obviously can’t use science to disprove something that, by definition, defies science and is supernatural. No belief system can be fully proven, but for these reasons, none can be fully disproven. This falls in line with Agnostic beliefs, “except a true Apatheist wouldn’t have continued talking after the first sentence of the first paragraph, and would instead be drinking a beer” (source: wiki) or playing ping pong.
An Apatheist’s core belief system can be summed up as that it’s impossible to know what happens after we die, but it’s already known that Chex Mix tastes really really good dipped in chocolate. Everyone will know what happens to you after you die as soon as they’re dead, which is a revelation that will come regardless of the amount of time they spend philosophizing. But, learning how to paint well… that’s not something you’re going to just eventually know, it’s something you have to actually learn. Dying won’t teach you how to become an engineer or expand your vocabulary. Instead of spending time thinking about something everyone will eventually know for sure, spend your time thinking about something better. Or just go for a nice walk and enjoy the scenery, after all if religion is correct God made it all for you, and if your an atheist it’s healthy.
An Apatheist, by definition, believes there might not be a God. However, he also believes there might be. The Apatheist recognizes the former is probably more convenient, dependent on whichever God it would turn out to be. If there isn’t a God, then there’s no afterlife and all our Earthly accomplishments are meaningless accept what we happen to leave as a legacy of good or bad. If there is a God who has the ability to do whatever He pleases, and we were doing shit of which He disapproved, He probably would have already come down and told us to stop. Since that has not happened, there’s no real reason to believe that the human race, as a whole, is an affront to God or enemies to him from our birth as is commonly taught by religion.
Unlike other belief systems (religions) Apatheists have no political agenda. As for the separation of church and state, Apatheists believe that even if you are to remove all references to any Gods from law, that is in effect an endorsement of Atheism, so it’s impossible for a government to not favor one belief system over another. So rather than take religious sensitivity into account, governments should just listen to what actually makes sense. Apatheists recognize that’s not really possible, however, because it requires a large group of people of different religions coming together and reaching an agreement.
For people who take their beliefs seriously, it can be hard to comprehend the Apatheist’s point of view since the Apatheist lacks fear of God’s wrath, and fear of suffering in hell. Many doubt Apatheist can be happy because all happiness comes from their religion, not from meaningful or purposeful living as experts point out. Those saved by Jesus’s grace for example are often confused by the Apatheists involvement in Christmas just for fun and gift giving. Those who believe they must earn salvation similarly question Apatheists on the grounds they could not possibly be doing something positive, wholesome, or good, without expecting a reward from God for it. For Catholics the complexity over Apatheism can be reduced to their wonder that Apatheists take such a strong stance against priests spending too much alone time with alter boys. Nonetheless, Apatheists are empathetic and non-judgmental of these Apatheistic doubters.
So that is how I became an Apatheist and what I now believe. Yes, it is subject to change. One benefit of my beliefs is that they do not conflict with science and truth and are flexible and open to change. I no longer believe any in other’s ridiculous superstitious stories and I find that comforting. I no longer live a life believing I’m chosen over others, which makes me a little more humble and nice. I no longer live a life feeling I must perfect myself or please a God which opens the door to the here and now.
I now get what my Dad meant when he secretly told me “don’t buy any of the religious bullshit”. My back scratcher is missing again and that really pisses me off. Turning to this life thinking is just amazing.
Dear John/Priesthood Leader,
I wanted to take a moment to share what my experiences with the Mormon Stories podcast and community has been since I first was referred to it by my active LDS mother. My name is Jordon Coffin and I am from Boise, ID. I have been a member of the church all my life. I have lived the teaching to the best of my ability, being surrounded by a loving active family and many wonderful people in the LDS community. Since a very young age I had an intense desire to be a son of God that followed the teachings of the gospel to the fullest. I interpreted many things very literally from the very beginning of my church experience. It became a stumbling block at the point of my 2nd bishop’s interview when I was nine years old. I realized that I had been unknowingly sinning as I was being asked the interview questions. Too overwhelmed with fear and shame I did not confess my transgression. For years after, I kept my sins to myself. Most days of my life I felt physical and mental anguish over the belief that I was a fallen person who was too weak to overcome or admit my sins.
The reason I tell this story is to frame how Mormon Stories has helped to change the way I feel about myself and also the way I feel about the church. The mental and physical stress that I harbored grew and grew until I truly had a built in response of anxiety, fear, guilt and pain. These feelings would arise whenever I thought, talked about or experienced church related teachings, meetings and or discussions. Those feelings had a large affect on my avoiding church responsibilities coming home from a mission and becoming inactive. I felt better being away from the gospel than in it.
Since beginning to listen to Mormon Stories Podcasts 3 months ago I have felt a type of relief. I have started to communicate and learn from people who have felt and experienced struggles in the church. The support and knowledge that I gain from these people and situations has had a life changing effect on the way I feel I can associate with the church. For the first time in years I was able to attend a church service with my wife and not feel the sting of fear, anxiety, stress and physical aversion to the words that were spoken and principles taught. The stories have helped me to learn, grown and feel content about myself. The work done by Jon Dehlin has given me a new ability to experience spirituality that I feel I had previously lost. In the last few years I have been asked on occasion “What are you doing about your spirituality?” I would have to answer “Nothing.” I did not have the ability to remove myself from past feelings and experiences to even try to have a relationship with God or experience a sweet spiritual moment. I have since been able to lessen the negative feelings and explore my own spirit and the spirituality that exist all around me. I give immense credit to the amazing people who have run this podcast and community, as well as the hundreds/thousands of people who supported or participated in it.
My father has many times told me that “The Lord works in mysterious ways.” I did not expect to find these Mormon Stories but through them I have felt the touch of God in my life. I have been inspired to be a better person and John and his podcasts have helped me to be able to attend, listen and participate in the LDS church with my loving wife. I do not know Jon personally but I love him for what he has done for my family and I. Thank you for your time.
Jordon Coffin
Boise, ID
I came across an article by an LDS physician that we could identify with, that really helped my husband and I come to peace with this subject and that has even significantly improved our marriage. You can e-mail me at macdcrystal at yahoo dot com and I’ll send you the article (because for prudence sake I wont post the URL here). If there is a way I could have e-mailed you privately, sorry I couldn’t figure that out.
dont_know_mo–My husband himself is a non-traditional believer. He’s a scientist who believes that empirical evidence is necessary in order to “know” something, so when I told him I didn’t know, and he asked if I hoped, he said that’s where he was, he hoped that it was true. He does believe in God, because, he says, that’s the only way he can explain love. As the bishop’s wife I was to be interviewed by the SP, not a counselor and I dreaded that interview but when I went, the SP delegated to a counselor because he had to do a pre-wedding interview. The counselor was a kind man who had no reason to doubt my faith so he didn’t ask the questions–I got a pass. That said, anyone who went to my husband with feelings similar to mine got the same treatment I received, he didn’t make an exception for me. He was a very loving and accepting bishop and I’ve had alot of ward members tell me how some of their children would probably have left the church during their teen years, had they had a different bishop.
DH is a direct descendant from a prominent church family and has known about the warts since his youth. He recognizes them and doesn’t believe in the literal interpretation of the BoM. We’ve always been a Sunstone, Dialogue kind of house. I don’t think i’ve ever heard him say we’re going to do something because the prophet–or any church leader– said we should. For example, he didn’t read the BoM when President Hinckley told the church to. He just doesn’t get into that sort of thing.
Good luck with your journey.
MormonStories and the connections created because of this podcast community helped a great deal when I felt like I had no choice but to leave the church if I wanted to maintain any kind of spiritual integrity. I went through a period of feeling like there was no way on earth that I could maintain my membership after my eyes were really opened to the church, its history, its veracity and so forth. I am grateful for this place and these resources John has created. They helped me calm my soul. I have met (and listened to) many amazing Mormons as a result.
I have been a member of the church my entire life. I graduated from seminary, served a mission, married in the temple, raised 5 children, always have paid a full tithe, worked as a temple ordinance worker, and have served in almost every calling at the ward and stake level save Bishop or Stake Presidency. About 10 years ago, while serving as a High Priest Group Leader, I began to lose my faith as I became less and less comfortable with my church’s responses to homosexuality, women’s roles, church history, and other things. In spite of much prayer, fasting, increased devotion and obedience, and seeking for help, I became angry and resentful. These feelings grew and were affecting every aspect of my life. My emotional state was challenging my marriage, my family, and my own peace of mind. Seeking others that might understand, at first I seemed to only be able to find others as angry or angrier than I. Thankfully, a bewildered but loving best friend shared that he had heard about a guy named John Dehlin and a podcast called Mormon Stories, and maybe I’d be interested.
John had only done a few when I found his work. I cannot describe the difference he and his podcasts made in my life. I know he saved my sanity. I am sure he saved my marriage. He may have saved my life…I was in a very dark and unhappy place back then. Having had the pleasure to lunch with him, I know that he’s real and genuine. Today, in spite of my unbelief, I am happy and at peace. I am actively attending Sacrament Meeting each Sunday, and serve in a calling. I know this would not be the case without John’s efforts.
John Dehlin is a personal hero of mine to whom I will always be indebted. He is not perfect, and I don’t even agree with him on every point he’s made or every action he’s taken, but I know that his heart is huge…he genuinely cares for others and has had the courage, the energy, and the where-with-all to share his life experiences, his thoughts, and his insight to perhaps help others. I do not know of nor can I imagine anyone that has manifested genuine Christ-like love any better than John.
450 Comments! That is a lot of support John.
You are our thoughts, prayers, and esteem.
Please share your stories –
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Letters-to-Our-Prophet/160356494028251#!/pages/Letters-to-Our-Prophet/160356494028251?sk=wall
I was active as active could be all through my childhood and teen years, and when I received my endowment at 21, I was suddenly in a ginormous “faith crisis” (the endowment was really tough for me, for various reasons that aren’t all that important for this discussion). That combined with a devastating medical condition meant that I didn’t know where my testimony stood anymore or how to still feel close to God.
I didn’t have any real-life examples of people who had struggled in some way AND stayed in the church. I had either/or examples — family and friends who seemed to be 100% in tune with Mormonism, no doubts whatsoever at any point in their lives, versus family and friends who had encountered some kind of struggle and become inactive. I had no examples of how to remain active and believing in the face of struggle. My church attendance was always steady, but I felt increasingly stressed about the state of my belief. A year or so after this all started, I found Mormon Stories and I found my examples — those who had struggled and stayed. Not all of the interview subjects fit this pattern, certainly, but enough of them did to show me it was possible to rebuild my faith, which is exactly what I wanted to do and exactly what I did.
I learned later that OF COURSE the friends and family members who seemed 100% in tune had encountered testimony challenges in their lives — almost all of us do — and had just never talked about it. In Jesus’s visit from 3rd Nephi, we learn that showing the people his scars is what finally convinces them of his identity as the Savior. I am moved by those who are trying to be like Jesus and are following in his ways by showing their scars, and many do just that through Mormon Stories. I love their examples. I understand that the issues addressed here are hard, so so hard, but they are harder when we have to face them alone. I am grateful my church teaches us to knit ourselves together in the pure love of Christ, to bear one another’s burdens, and Mormon Stories is part of my church. Thanks a million times over to John Dehlin for steering it and to the many who have so graciously shared their scars, as well as their joys, through this project.
If “The Church” is smart it will recognize that the Mormon Stories Universe is not an enemy; it is a friend and positive source of light in many many people’s lives!!! Not only that but it is in line with many historic intellectual threads within the Church. Community of the type being fostered through Mormon Stories is the kind of community the church should encourage for struggling members. Just consider the more short-sighted, unsympathetic, even anger-based alternatives out there… The hundreds of comments here are only a tiny FRACTION of the true percentage of church members that are supportive of this kind of community and the dialogue it fosters. If persons of authority seek to somehow stifle this positive source of open and honest dialogue and community they will be cutting off the nose of the church to spite its face: it’s time to build bridges, not destroy them.
I had a negative experience on my mission, which led me to come home and doubt the church. I found a few negative websites which, though contained (mostly) accurate information, left me feeling angry at the church and wanting to leave…
I discovered the StayLDS website a few months into researching the church, and it led me to a link to New Order Mormon. I also have been listening to the podcasts.
This has had a profound impact of my view on the church, I now feel like I could stay in the church indefinitely if I wanted to. Though my views, like most who come here, are less than orthodox, I am able to enjoy church, and not feel the animosity I felt for a time towards the church
Mormon Stories helps me feel like I’m part of the Mormon community even though I don’t feel that way at church.
My story/opinion:
1.Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church:
The church has put itself in a hard place by optimistic, faithpromoting, and creative storytelling for generations, while making claims that at closer scrutiny doesnt match the storytelling. I believe that there is a real fear in the church leadership about the implications and possible consequenses of these problems. I also believe that the church leadership is divided in how to respond to the problem = no consensus = no decicive action.
I believe any active member willing to put in the time and effort to REALLY and honestly investigate church history, policy, and doctrine, will see that the church has some major isues that needs to be dealth with by revelation, and not by correlation.
Upon these discoveries the church member will be in a state of “cognitive dissonance” where he/she has to decide if he/she wants to enforce creative mindbending to pretend that things are as before, or start dealing with the implications. Dealing with the implications is a long and painful process. It is easier just to pretend.
2. What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide:
To face this great problem that challenges church growth and member retention, the leadership on all levels are hinting and saying: “Dont investigate the church on the internet, just dont”!
My question is; “at what moment in time did truth begin to fear information”?
When did “ponder and pray”, get replaced by “dont question and obey”?
There is no place in the church organisation for members that have discovered these problems.
Where in the church organisation can I go with my questions to get support and answers?
The only “support” is the unofficial clouding efforts made by FARMS and FAIR. They provide support to the initial and uninformed investogator, or the easily bedazzeled by a wall of incomprihensible words and meanings.
The 15 needs to deal with this problem, and not leave the problem to the local bishops and SP’s.
Bishops and Sp’s doesnt implicit have the background on which to deal with these problems, and are left with gut feeling combined with the church handbooks “bitter apostates” views.
One way to do this would be to educate the bishops and SP’s on the basic problems, maby done by someone like Richard Bushman, or have them madatory listen to the Mormon Stories podcasts
And the 15 might want to make clear if and how they support the clouding efforts made by FARMS and FAIR.
3. How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has):
Without Mormon Stories I would have left the church over 1,5 years ago. Mormon Stories gave me hope to endure.
And it gave me great comfort in understanding other peoples experiences with problems similar to mine.
Mormon Stories tries to fill a hole that the church dug a long time ago.
Not to save the church, thats the job of the 15, but to save the members who fell into that hole.
Mormon Stories is a lifeline to me.
My main problem with the Church:
(1.) No donation reports sent out to donators, i.e. tithe & fast offering payers.
Make it transparent. You’ve been spending billions of dollars on a mall when that money could arguably be benefitted from elsewhere, and not surprisingly, many people feel that it is in stark contrast to what Jesus would do with money like that.
Make your budget, and all other financial affairs completely transparent. Anyone who pays tithing and fast offerings should have a right to view this information, and see how the money is being handled. To deny this information to anyone, from an organization that claims to be led by Christ and should have nothing to hide, looks awfully suspicious.
This is a problem that can be fixed. We’re not talking about altering or changing doctrine here. We’re talking about making the church accountabe to the people as well as to the Lord. “What you do to your brethren, you do unto me.” Remember the Lord’s advice and make the budget transparent, no exceptions.
@09813100a55e96b670a0efda6de418f7:disqus
Vendo,
Your comment is spot on and is, likewise, my biggest problem with the Church.
Faithful members are expected to pay tithing, account to their bishop each year in tithing settlement and expect no such accounting from the brethren in Salt Lake as to where and/or how the money is spent or used.
I am a life-long member of the Church, a temple recommend holder, married in the temple, and a returned missionary.
My wife and I have faithfully paid a full tithe for our entire marriage – over 14 years. However, my growing disconnect between what is preached over the pulpit (honesty, etc.) and what happens with the funds that we SACRIFICE to give, has caused me to seriously question the entire principle of tithing. This year, I began impounding the funds by holding them in a separate savings account I have. My wife has tried to be understanding and patient, something for which I am grateful, but thus far, I have been unwilling to release the bulk of these funds to the Church. (I have, on the other hand, told my wife that she is more-than-welcome to pay a full tithe on any money she earns – I do not want to stand in the way of her exercising her religious belief as she sees fit). However, it cannot be emphasized enough that my “holding out” has caused some issues in our marriage.
The brethren give us an accounting of these funds via the completely worthless Auditor’s Report given each April Conference. I, like you, would like a full accounting of the monies received and how they are spent and/or invested. I would also like to see the brethren discontinue the practice of specifying that Project A or Project B is not being financed with tithing funds when in fact there is NO other source for anything the Church has than tithing funds…even if those funds were generated by a Church-owned business. The Church had to have the money to purchase or start the business from somewhere and that somewhere is tithing. Frankly, I think the whole concept of stating “no tithing funds were used” is flat-out deceptive.
To bring the my comment completely around – that is what I appreciate about Mormon Stories (and likewise, Mormon Expression): a place where I can “vent” or at least discuss my concerns without fear of having my membership taken away or threatened with the same. Although I have a great Bishop who I believe would be at least willing to “hear me out”, I am not willing to risk alienating my wife by going to a priesthood authority with my concerns over tithing. That is what makes Mormon Stories great – Its position as a forum for presenting and hearing the “other side”.
John – I wish you the best in your meeting and hope it goes well for you.
Just let your leaders know that you received personal revelation to undertake this mission, and that your intentions are only to to test us. Much like Joseph did when testing those men whose wives should be given to him. He didn’t actually take them in some cases. Geez…
When I was a member and a missionary, I remember hearing that people
only left the church because either they wanted to sin or else they were
offended by someone in the church. When I left the church (I resigned
14 years ago, but I really left several years before that while I was
still at BYU), I thought I was leaving because it wasn’t true. I
thought I was leaving the Mormon church because they lied to me, because
the church was founded on lies. While all of these reasons are
certainly valid, I now realize that I left because I was offended by so
many in the church. I was offended by the leaders who told me that my
questions and doubts were wrong. I was offended by those who kept the
secrets of the church and told me they were lies when they were not. I
was offended by so many actions and words, (especially while at BYU,
which I had been told was god’s university).
When I left the Mormon church, I missed the Mormon community. I still
miss this community and I find it unfortunate that my children can not
have such a community. In fact, I now feel obliged to protect my
children from Mormonism.
John Dehlin is a breath of fresh air. He is advocating exactly what could have helped me around the time that I was leaving the Mormon
church. If someone like him had been there and told me that my doubts
were okay to voice, that I was actually a valued member of the
community, who know if I would have ever left. This is exactly what I
see him doing for others and I am grateful to see it. Without a doubt,
John is making the world of Mormonism a better place for so many people,
myself included.
Thank you John.
John,
Please let us know how your interview with your Stake President went!!
Thanks!
I currently consider myself a former Mormon although I have not resigned. I do not feel anger at the LDS church or anything, it just did not meet my needs. As a Mormon, I was very unhappy.
What the Mormon church was not able to provide: I am more of a “spirit of the law” kind of person and the Mormon church is a very “letter of the law” kind of church. It was a bad fit. I just want to be a good person and be happy along with those around me. I do not need every aspect of my life dictated to me. I don’t need to be told how to vote, how many earrings to wear, what to drink, how to think, what to read, who to associate with, how to spend my money, what style of clothing to buy or how to spend my time. I felt so suffocated in the LDS church . There is very little room for individuality within the LDS church. I had my own thoughts and opinions but I was not allowed to express them for fear of retribution.
Another cause of my discontentment was that I was single in the Mormon church for many many years, yes even beyond the dreaded age of 30 and I was most certainly made to feel second class. This is not just a particular ward, I was made to feel this way in ever ward I was in both in Utah and far outside of the Mormon Corridor. From the time I was in beehives I was trained to believe that there was no greater calling than that of motherhood and that it was my obligation to make myself ready to be a wife and mother. And if the opportunity never came? well then I was to remain patient and faithful to the end and keep myself sweet and pretty just in case a worthy priesthood holding man comes along. Now let me be clear, I WANTED to get married, but I never got the opportunity within mormonisim and I was most certainly marginalized because of my marital status- and I only felt this way about church, I never felt like I was treated more poorly because I was single anywhere else- no, I only felt this way at church. Yes twice a year Relief society lessons paid lip service to the plight of the single woman but in practice singles are not valued in the mormon church.
Eventually, when I realized how unhappy I was in this church I thought “Why do I stay?” I didn’t really “KNOW” that the church was true despite hours and hours of study and prayer… I actually didn’t think that it was true due to so many inconsistencies and things that were kept from the members and the fact that we had to be told what not to read (don’t read anything but church-approved literature was a huge red flag for me, it made me feel like: “oh really, what are they hiding that they don’t want me to find out”) I also had a lot of problems with Joseph Smith’s polygamy and the age of his wives and the secrecy around his polygamy, and just the nature of Joseph smith in general and also I thought Brigham Young was a tyrant a bad person (based on his own talks in the JoD)… but still I believed the church was “good” and I stayed because generations of my family stayed but that was the only reason, so after great deal of personal struggle, I tiptoed out without making a fuss. A year later I met and married to a Muslim man who lives his religion on his own terms and never once tried to force it on me. I feel a joy and a peace that I have never felt in my entire life. I am free to be honest about my feelings for the first time in my life. If I could have felt this way inside of Mormonisim maybe I would have stayed. I may not have believed it, but I would have stayed.
The biggest way Mormonstories helped me is with John’s “why people leave” podcast. Often my family tried to engage me on why I no longer come to church. Was I offended with the way singles were treated? Sure….but if I actually BELIEVED in the doctrines of the church I would have stayed despite any offense. And also if I didn’t believe in the church, but was HAPPY I would have stayed, but why the heck would I want to stay in something that I didn’t believe and didn’t make me happy? I wanted to be honest with them, but I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable and I certainly didn’t want to do anything that would shake their faith. They were happy to be in the LDS church and I didn’t want to do or say anything that would take that away from them. The podcast was such a great resource. I just gave them the link and said “Here, watch this, it will help you understand me.”
This is also one of my biggest problems with the church and I have felt this way for almost 3 decades.
I particularly liked your interview with Shawn McCraney. I know he is polarizing to many of his or your listeners. But he is a Christian. And so am I.
The fact that you give people like Shawn McCraney, Richard Peckham and others a forum who see things in Mormonism that the general membership of the church may not see is a wonderful contribution to Mormon culture and a great attempt to create variety, diversity and richness of thought. …the kind of richness of thought people like Packer and Bednar might not like.I joined the LDS Church at age 18 almost 22 years ago. I have been through many callings, including a full-time mission in the States, married in the temple like many who posted in your forum, John.You are asking in what way the Mormon church leaves unfulfilled what I would seek from it. To be honest, I don’t seek anything from the Mormon church anymore. But I used to seek what it claims to be – the restoration of the primitive church of the 1st century.Members of the LDS church are more concerned about how true the church is than they are about how true Christ is. That is an issue to me. The consequence of such focus is that faith is not advanced but hindered. A person will not grow in their relationship with their Saviour if they are constantly reminded to grow in their relationship with a religion. That is at the heart of what made me lose my trust in the LDS church. Once I reached a certain stage in my relationship with my God the Mormon church, despite the fact that I love many of its members, became dead to me.
I first learned about Joseph Smith having married multiple wives, including several that were already married to other men, while I was preparing for a lesson as a teacher. This took me into other aspects of church history. Ultimately John helped me to look at the Church with more balance, instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
His heartfelt advice and viewpoint helped me not to do anything rash that would hurt my relationships or the church. It might have really hurt my marriage as my wife and I sorted out our difference of opinions on the church if I had not taken John’s advice to step back and look at the good that is in the church.
To church leaders: this pesky Internet thing is not going away. The more you try to bury church history, the more people will discover the inconsistencies. Even sincere church members like me doing lesson research.
I decided to stay in the church b/c there is good here, despite the feeling that the church has purposefully covered up or misrepresented its own past.
John, I know that this is a bit late; but I just heard about it and wanted to say that you are partly responsible for saving my life when I first left the church and found your article about why people leave. I sat and sobbed because a ‘Mormon’ understood. A good half of my family basically abandoned me, for not believing what they believed. I was called a liar and previous ‘sins’ have been raised now that I am a wicked apostate. I didn’t know who I was anymore. Was I that person who ‘sinned’ 50 years ago before I joined the church or was I the faithful person who served a couple mission and stayed on despite being seriously injured in an accident as passengers in a mission vehicle on our second day in South Africa. I had felt good about myself but when I left the Church, I felt like an empty shell and needed something to fill my life; you helped, my Mormon husband helped and the ex-Mormon community helped, but my family has still not come around to accepting me.
I would like to tell the Church leaders that no one church has the true gospel and their arrogance in saying so is the reason my family has abandoned me; they think I’ve turned my back on the one and only true church on the face of the earth. That equates to turning my back on them. The church is responsible for dividing families yet they constantly talk about the family. I would like them to require that all families watch your video about ‘why they leave’ and maybe my family will return to me. One thing is for sure; I will not be returning to the church – ever!
AND, I forgot to say that the Church is a top down organization. Being that they are supposedly Prophets, Seers and Revelators, they act as though nothing of value can come from the bottom. We are not able to give our comments to the Brethren and if we do there is no response.
I tried to ‘speak’ with them about the temple wedding policy; the one year wait for those who choose to have a civil ceremony in order to include ALL family members, but the issue gets delegated to Michael Otterson – he is not a prophet. The temple wedding petition asking them to drop this divisive policy that faces mostly North American saints is ongoing but nobody from the top will ever say, “you are right – it is divisive, so let’s change it.” That would be looked at as capitulation. Why? http://www.templeweddingpetition.org
Mormonism has been the source of my greatest joys and deepest frustrations. I’m currently active, I love the Book of Mormon, and can speak with enthusiasm about many other aspects of Mormonism. My frustrations really boil down to not receiving the degree of spiritual growth/gifts I had hoped for, but I don’t blame church leaders for that.
The biggest thing that I am needing/lacking at church? I’d also love for someone in authority to enact a pilot-program Rumspringa for those of us who skipped our adolescence in a quest for spiritual perfection.
But I’m not holding my breath.
Mormon Stories is an addicting window into the minds of like- and unlike-minded Mormons of all stripes. A salve to the soul? Yes. A boost to the brain? Yes. A check on my creeping, complacent self-righteousness? Definitely. There I was, so pleased to be succeeding in the only true and living church, basking in my middle-class Caucasian priesthood power, barely aware of the hell endured by many who I share the pews with each Sunday. Without Mormon Stories, would I have ever have given more than a second’s thought to the agony that a gay Mormon feels? I doubt it. Would I ever have taken seriously the quandries of ambitious yet marginalized LDS women? Unlikely. Would I ever have tasted the genuine trials of faith my ancestors endured, or the crises of faith many now endure, as they probe the pages of real Mormon history? No way.
Thank you John, for waking me up. And for offering my surest lifeline to honest, living Mormonism during some of the loneliest, most miserable years of my life.
I’m a very active, temple-attending, calling-holding lifelong Mormon mother. I love the church and what it does for me and my family and the opportunities it gives us. Nevertheless, as I’ve grown personally and spiritually I’ve encountered numerous questions, doubts, fears, and ideas that are unanswerable in the church setting or not answered honestly in any official church materials. The more I felt my own beliefs or ideas to be at odds with the general LDS population, the more isolated and out of place I’ve felt.
Thankfully for me, I have non-traditional LDS parents, and I knew where to go for answers and respectful, but honest, open dialogue. I came across John Dehlin and Mormon stories along the way. Because of John and Mormon Stories I feel like I have a place in the church, rather than feeling like I “don’t fit.” Most LDS people don’t intend to be exclusive or make people feel unwelcome, but nevertheless that is the feeling when you don’t “fit the mold” and know yourself to be out of step with everyone around you. It’s very difficult to feel alone or out of place at church. When you
lose your community, you lose a lot of the motivation to attend.
Rather than feeling depressed or alone at church, I now know there are lots of others like me, or on some continuum of questioning similar to mine, who are also attending church. They may not be in my ward, but they are out there, somewhere! I feel like I can be an example to others, that the LDS church is for EVERYONE, not just those that “fit in.” John Dehlin’s message is of inclusion, of understanding, of compassion. I have come to understand and respect those who choose to live and believe differently than me, whether they are full-blown, faithful LDS, or disaffected and leaving the church. We are all God’s children, and He wants all of us to be able to come together for inspiration and help. Everyone should be welcome at church, even the different, even the disbelieving, even the questioning, even the sinners, even me. Mormonism doesn’t have to be narrow. It can be wide – arms open wide to all of us. This is what John and Mormon Stories teaches us. Thank you for making this a place I can be.
I expressed my thoughts on this topic in my “If I Were Mope (Mormon Pope)” article – which I will post in it’s entirety (for the sake of the reader’s convenience if nothing else) here:
If I were “Mope” (Mormon Pope)
by Fred W. Anson
I put originally put this up on AnswerBag and, frankly, I’m pretty proud of it.
I thought that it might provoke thought in others as well so it’s with that intention that I post it here. By all means please show me what I’m missing AND, more importantly, what your list would look like if you were “Mope!” Let me gain from your wisdom and insight!
Q: If you were suddenly called to be the leader of your Church, be it Prophet, Minister, or Pope, what, if anything, would you change immediately?
A: Well this question is just too delicious to let pass by without this – and I’ve thought about this for a LONG time:
What if I were the “Mope”(that is, Mormon Pope – a la Stephen Colbert)After all [LDS poster] you DID post this in the Mormonism Section and while I’m not Mormon, I AM a Mormon Studies Scholar, I have some suggestions for the guy – and I’m going pretend like I’m that guy for the sake of discussion – who would assume the LDS President’s “Mope” role:
1) Proclaim “Camelot II” and open up the Church Archives to ALL Scholars not just those who agree to write “faithful” Mormon History.
2) Mission the Church Education System with publishing TRUTHFUL Mormon History rather than the white washed, spin doctored “Faithful” Mormon History that they currently publish.
3) I would merge with the RLDS and as a result take the following actions:
* Declare Joseph Smith a remarkable man and charismatic leader but not a Prophet of God.
* Decanonize “The Pearl of Great Price” and admit that the papyri that the “Book of Abraham” was translated from are nothing more than copies of the “Egyptian Book of Breathings” that Joseph Smith used to retain leadership of the Early Saints and keep the movement going. In other words, he lied and deceived for what he THOUGHT was a worthy cause. Oops!
* Decanonize both the LDS and RLDS versions of “Doctrine and Covenants” and reclassify them as historical records useful for better understanding Joseph Smith and the Early Church but nothing more than that.
* Declare the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority for the LDS Church and encourage members to use Modern Translations rather the inaccurate and antiquated 1611 King James Version of the Bible.
* Declare “The Book of Mormon” to be a fascinating work of 19th Century Fiction akin to, say “Pilgrim’s Progress” but not real history. This, of course, would decanonize it by implication.
* Declare Baptism for the Dead to be unBiblical and is a colossal waste of time because it’s based on a corrupt interpretation of Paul’s tongue-in cheek parenthetical clause contained in I Corinthians 15:29.
* Declare the Aaron and Melchizedek Priesthoods unBiblical and all present and past Endowments null and void in accordance with the Book of Hebrews (Chapters 5-7 in particular).
* Release all Endowed LDS from their Temple Oaths and Vows and encourage them to share their Temple experiences with the public so that the silly rumors and speculations are dealt with once and for all. Oh, and whoever wishes to can feel free to remove their Temple Garments.
* Shut down the LDS Temple system since it was initiated solely to cover up Joseph Smith’s secret Polygamous Marriages as well as a means of injecting Masonic teachings into Mormonism. It was born out of corruption and needs to go!
* Convert the Temples to PUBLIC Church meeting halls and wedding chapels. Insist that EVERYONE is welcome at LDS Weddings regardless of sect, race, or creed. ALL are worthy!
* Apologize to people of Color for the LDS Doctrine of, “The Curse of Cain” and state that the racist passages in the Book of Mormon are reflections of 19th Century racist based Theology in general and the expansion of the “Curse of Cain” doctrine was due to Brigham Young’s personal racism in particular.
* Make Tithing, monthly Fasts and Fast Offerings voluntary.
* Reverse all past Excommunication and Dis-Fellowhship actions and apologize to all who suffered under this system.
* Restore the New Testament Charismata (Spiritual Gifts) to the LDS Church making it Pentecostal as it originally was.
* Encourage the membership to develop forms of “Loyal Opposition” and listen, really listen to what they have to say.
4) Mission the General Authority with realigning LDS Theology with Biblical Christian Theology while still retaining the aspects of the legacy LDS Church that were Biblical, positive, and good quality distinctives.
5) Invite Biblical Christian Theologians to aid and assist the GA with #3.
6) Remind LDS Missionaries and parents of Missionaries that such service should be completely voluntary and that should be NO stigma for not serving a mission. I would also encourage any active Missionaries who felt like they were pressured or coerced into going on a Mission to return home – at Church expense.
7) Apologize to ExMormons and encourage them to try the “New, Improved and Biblically based” Mormonism.
8) Apologize to the LDS world (main SLC and splinter groups alike) for the “false revelation” of Polygamy and the harmful fall out that has ensued since.
9) Lobby all Southwest State Attorney Generals – especially the Utah State Attorney General, who’s Mormon BTW – to actively begin prosecuting Polygamists within their states.
10) Mission the Relief Society with developing the means and methods of helping the women and children who want to escape from Polygamist Communities to do so WITH LDS Church support – including financial support for a set period of time.
11) Liquidate Church holdings in non-religious assets to back fill for reduced revenues due to a significantly smaller membership and tithing base.
12) Consolidate Ward Halls to accommodate the smaller attendance base and sell extraneous Ward Halls.
I’m sure that I’m forgetting a bunch but that’s a pretty good start I would say. And if I could somehow manage to dodge all the Danite Assassination attempts I might even live to see all this fulfilled!
And through these changes I believe that we will see the TRUE Biblical Restoration of the LDS Church finally begin!
(source = http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=114462925260206 ; retrieved date of post)
And to directly address your three questions John:
- Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church.
A: I am a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family members who would never join the LdS Church for the reasons outlined above.
- What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide.
A: Richard Packham once said, “If someone claims to have the truth you should probably first find out if they’re lying to you.”
Since the LdS Church lies about Mormon History and the History of LdS Theology and Doctrine I would have to say that the #1 thing that the it seems to be lacking is honesty and integrity.
And, frankly, I have no interest in a church – ANY church – that’s lacking those qualities.
- How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has).
A: It converted me from a rabid Anti-Mormon of the Ed Decker variety to someone who has compassion for the LdS Church and it’s members wants nothing more than to see the LdS Church a better place.
My tone, rhetoric, attitudes, and approach have ALL softened by gaining enlightenment through Mormon Stories.
Thank you John.
I don’t know if you feel the same way but I consider you both a friend and a trusted advisor. You and Mormon Stories have been a good and faithful traveling companion on the journey.
Thank you again.
P.S. If the Brethren can’t see the value that you’ve brought to Mormon Studies in general and Outsider/Insider dialog in particular then they’re blind fools.
I was born in the church, attended seminary, institute, BYU, mission, and so on. I am now in my late 30s. I lost my faith 8 years ago and stopped attending church about 6 years ago, all due to historical/scientific issues that the church seems to avoid or de-emphasize. In the past year, I began attending church again, and I have found a spiritual rebirth in the LDS faith. And it’s all mostly due to mormonstories and staylds.com. Those websites provided me with the faith frame-work to approach mormonism in a way that makes sense to me in light of the historical evidence. I’m now actively involved in my local ward and enjoy the fellowship and spirituality found therein. I have chosen to accept the majority of mormon doctrine as true (or good) for me, even if the chain of founding events play out somewhat differently than what I was led to believe while growing up. My current fellowship in the church would have seemed crazy or impossible to me even just two years ago. I have to thank John Dehlin for his great work. He’s been the most influential person in bringing me back to the church, even though we’ve never met.
I realize that the church is pragmatic and must cater to the needs of the majority who tend to be more literalistic and fundamentalist in their faith. Yet, it would be nice if the church would openly accept those who tend to be less literalist and provide, or at minimum endorse, a support structure to help those in our situation. I realize the church cannot all at once publish mormon history as it really most-likely occurred. I myself have no desire to rock the boat in that area. However, the church should begin, gradually, discussing problem areas so that the rising generation can adjust to the information without leading to a complete spiritual/emotional melt-down as I experienced.
Don’t get me wrong… I do respect Mormons/LDS people. I have been a Christian most of my life. I found Jesus love more important than anything else in my life and it was Jesus who free me of sins. I just wish the LDS/Mormon Church was more honest and open of their sins. It gets sad when people get neglected and not a closure to the individuals and community members. It’s very awkward when a church will admit things are perfect or good but has very little truth in it. When Jesus writes in our heart and mind as said in (Hebrews 8:10) and we see something is wrong. We see the culture of LDS but we do not see Jesus in there. I start to pray what is wrong with me… why do I see these things and not the other people. The depressing day of my life is being accused of making up things just based on things I feel, see or think. When I am just trying to be honest. Then, all sudden it is like walking on egg shells as it is all my fault. The guilt I will have to live with for rest of my life. And, the prayers I have to pray for to ask God, why did I feel this was the right thing to do. This site showed me that what Jesus warned me of was true. I was blessed that God was working in my heart and mind. But, my concern is how many more people are like that. And, knowing someone is confronting these truth and showing that being perfect or good is not necessary. The truth will set us free… that is what Jesus promised. How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has). I’ve found some articles in here very useful to me in the past. Especially when I felt that my Lady LDS friend was telling me of somethings and then saying that they did not exist. Those two different stories never made sense. I tried all I could do to understand because these things were world view. What the LDS were practicing were all the same stuff the world does. Bible has raised me to be in the world but not like the world. But, this was the world… and LDS members would always say that they do not happen. These truth should not be neglected. I found some articles in there exactly what I went through with this lady friend. And, I was very surprised that I was not alone. I realized that I was not imaging things. It was too bad that when I was trying to be myself and confused. I was accused of bashing. I never understood why so much secrets in the church. Why needing to lie or hide the truth. I always saw that God was a truthful witness. With all these hiding things that I was seeing it lead me to think that something was wrong with me. And, the bashing just happen because I just didn’t understand why someone had so much to hide. Honestly, bashing was more of asking questions. And, it felt like in a military family where we must say nothing. Many stories that were on the podcast and messages here have showed that inside the Mormon church they have the same problem. I still pray for that LDS Lady friend. She gave up 5 great years just because I was seeing things that she would not admit were true. She refused to admit them so that she decided to marry some Mormon guy who instead calls me names like fag and stupid. And, he gets temple worthy. And, she refused to talk about anything at all. I found that many people went through the same thing. But, some stories in here explain them better. It always bugged me why does the LDS church allow these false witness get temple worthy. And, they keep telling that they are the most perfect church out there. The truth, the LDS church is just like us. And, I continued my mission to find God. I’m blessed that this site gave me some kind of closure that I seek. Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church.I feel bad for all those who go to LDS. And, I certainly hope that someday LDS will learn to forgive their enemies. And, love them as just any other church out there. It makes no sense to admit that Joseph Smith found the true church if there are so many people who need to express their feeling somewhere. It is healthy to confront your brothers and sisters. It is also healthy to admit that you are not perfect. And, it is healthy to show that the church is not as good as they will admit. God prefers us to be truthful and let him have our sins. That is the love God gives. The church should not be controlling the people in the way they go to the heart. I certainly hope that the Church will look into the sins that they have done to the members and the world members out there. What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide. The church needs to stop pressuring the members to deny themselves. And, forcing themselves to do things that they can not be. It’s time to realize that the prophets are not like Moses or the prophets before Jesus Christ. They are people just like any of us. They tried to make a covenent with Jesus that actually makes them slaves to sins. It’s time to free the people from their sins. It’s time to show that they need to forgive those who bashed them. And, forgive for neglecting those they loved or cared for. It’s time to face the truth… we should not live hiding from God. We should be truthful at all times. I know my greatest sympathy goes to the Mormons who are on this site. I know the goal is to keep them LDS/Mormon. I feel it’s a great place where people could heal their wounds and come to the truth rather than living in a world that they are forced to live. I hope this site keeps going on. Somewhere people need common ground… however i believe people should not be staying LDS/Mormon. It is time to step down and say the lords prayer and say, “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors”. I know for sure people will feel tons better. It is Jesus who frees us of sins not the LDS/Mormon church. And, this love is something that everyone needs. My prayers are that this site will help those who are struggling to find love that is free of sins by being forgiving things of past and confronting their brothers and sisters in Christ for what they did. And, trying to figure out common grounds and show that we all are sinners. This PodCast did that… It’s time for the church to admit that people need Jesus not Joseph, LDS, Mormon or anything. Faith alone will save us from sins. Dean “Rex” DeRusso
I know its too late, but to answer your questions John,
1. I am grateful for what the church has been for me. Bored, agitated and even a little hurt with what the church is for me now. 2. I need a guide or mentor a guru, someone that is clearly further up the metaphorical Mount Fuji to lend me hand. I need to know how to progress as a human being and a spiritual being. I need the church to demonstrate a modicum of humility such that I can have a modicum of faith in it. I need a church that expects me to be honest, to reciprocate honesty in return. I need a church that doesn’t manipulate its members with fear. I need a church that will love more than hate and heal more than hurt. I need a church that places more value on individuals than on institution. I need a church that doesn’t require me to be on medication to attend. 3. Mormon Stories has offered perspective. Perspective of what is, what was and what may be. I don’t hate the church and wish it would take a trip down the memory hole because of the perspective John has offered. I likely have my marriage, family and life because simply because of the perspective offered by Mormon Stories. Thank you John.
John,
It is with some trepidation that I respond to your request, having never contributed to a blog or comment section before on a church related site. I am a life time member , currently active, having served a faithful mission, married in the temple with six beautiful children and having served in many capacities such as Bishop, High Councillor and Institute Instructor for a ten-year period etc. I have lived my life under the literalist umbrella submitting to the requests of my priesthood leaders and doctrinal dictates willingly and joyfully. However, I now find myself in a perpetual tug of war; do I capitulate to the demands of literal expediency or venture into the realms of uncertainty and a more honest and open universe? For the past five- years I have endeavoured to study the conflicting aspects of my faith moving into territory which is often troubling, uncertain and at times depressing enough to contemplate the thought of suicide. Mormon Stories has provided sufficient balm to quieten the mental ping pong and the strength to continue in my search for answers to my unresolved questions. This site has helped me recognise that I am not alone, that though many have doubts the church is treated in a respectful and dignified manner, often extolling its virtues and the beneficial impact it has in their lives.
I hesitate to offer recommendations for church leaders having been conditioned to submit to the brethren and not speak out. However, recognising that in earlier times in church history a more open environment was encouraged and therefore I would concur with most of the observations which have been so eloquently expressed in previous comments. I would also add that I do not longer have the energy or intelligence to sift through the confusing and at times malicious material offered by church apologists, nor do I believe a loving and compassionate God would want us to spend an inordinate amount of time studying some of the more troubling aspects of our faith when a few definitive responses/revelations from the presiding authorities in our church would suffice. This would free up more valuable time to spend on those things which are considered more needful.
I have been taught throughout my life to seek out the one, for those who are lost, for those who are in pain. Do our leaders see us in that light or are we considered as collateral damage? I am tired of feeling like flotsam on the ocean of Mormonism, an ocean which I long to be one with but one that is real and life sustaining; I cannot see this in my present position.
I do not know where my life will lead but I will ever be grateful to Mormon Stories for providing a community of fellow journeyers, a forum for reviewing the challenging aspects of our faith and a presenter who is committed to the search for truth in a compassionate, rigorous and honest manner.
Good luck John, you are in our thoughts and prayers.
@cadb62464204f60e021efcbb68165441:disqus , Thanks for sharing your comments.
I too have felt as you when you said “I would also add that I do not longer have the energy or intelligence to
sift through the confusing and at times malicious material offered by
church apologists, nor do I believe a loving and compassionate God would
want us to spend an inordinate amount of time studying some of the more
troubling aspects of our faith when a few definitive
responses/revelations from the presiding authorities in our church would
sufficce. ” After spending many hours trying to sift out all the facts, I have come to the opinion that a loving Heavenly Father would not require his children to have to work so hard to come to know him and his truths.
I too an new to “blogging” but find I am in desperate need of validation, which I have found be reading some of the posts. Some of the post leave me a bit fearful as well. I have somehow lost my connection with God. I hope that I can come to feel Gods love again and lose some of the shame and fear that come with questioning doctrines and teachings of the church. It has amazed me just how painful an earth shattering it is to find oneself question what once felt so sure.
I would like to add though that I have recently met with my bishop and Stake President. I mentioned my doubts in general terms and we discussed my willingness to exercise faith ( a hope for things not seen). I mentioned that at this point in time I can not say I have a Testimony of many things. I can no longer say ‘I Know” but I was willing to exercise faith ( a hope for things not seen) . Both interviews went very well and both of my Priesthood leaders were empathetic (that does not mean they agree with my doubts). I think because they have known me for so long and have seen my diligence to keep my covenants and try and live the doctrines they were willing to give me a recommend so I could be with my daughter, who is leaving on a mission, as she received her endowments. I think so many who have written comments have had negative experiences. However I think the positive experience should be acknowledged as well.
Johnny_Olson Gandhi: What a spiritually sensitive, succinct and heartfelt post. Take heart, brother. After more that 50 years of being a member of the church, and having had many callings and experiences , and TBM parents whose father (long deceased) was well regarded by even some of the current Brethren , I can relate to what you stated.
I am managing very well, though, notwithstanding what I, too, have come to know, as well as experience first hand what is both beneficial and deleterious about the church. Keep the faith, brother, by keeping your perspective as for what is most important, and that is: Men are that they might have joy. And my joy comes largely from the peace that literally speaks to me, which is: All is unfolding as it should, that I have a future in righteousness, i.e., doing what I feel to be the right things to do, and that God, the great “Whom Thou Art” knows and loves me.
I don’t know what else to say.
Maybe we will get to meet and talk some day.
Best to you.
- Paul B from Cali
Despite the fact that the noted Church Leader you referenced seems to be interested only in the perspective of past and current members I would never-the-less like to give, a constructive, outsider’s perspective in regard to Mormon Stories and the LdS Church.
Q: Your situation/thoughts/feelings with regard to the church.
A: I am a NeverMo (and never will be) with Mormon family and friends.
Q: What you feel you are needing/lacking that the church has not yet been able to provide.
A: Well I’m really neither needing or lacking anything spiritually, physically, emotionally or otherwise from the LdS Church.
However, speaking in my role as Mormon Studies Scholar what I’m needing and lack from the LdS Church is honesty and integrity.
It’s been said many, many, many times before in the other posts here but if the LdS Church would just tell the truth about Mormon History and LdS Theology/Doctrine to both members and outsiders it would be a huge step forward IMO – and obviously in the opinion of others as well.
Q: How Mormon Stories has helped in that journey (if it has).
A: Listening to Mormon Stories turned me from a rabid “Anti-Mormon” into someone who is a passionate Mormon Studies Scholar who is supportive of the good things that he sees in the LdS Church.
Further Mormon Stories gave me hope that the LdS Church can be a better place IF (and ONLY IF) it starts listening to it’s members and allows for loyal dissent within it’s ranks – as well as practicing 100% honesty 100% of the time.
I want to see a better LdS Church emerge and I’m just silly enough to believe that that’s possible.
Were it not for Mormon Stories I would still probably be very much on a different track.
(And I would hope that this post does not get deleted because I think that I have something of value to bring to these discussions even though I’m not, nor have I ever been, a member of the LdS Church.)
Thank you.
I came into this topic past the due date so any question I would have would have to be retrofitted to the GA visit. A thought that I have and that has probably already been adressed previously is why does the church corporation lean so heavily on youth indoctrination so heavily? If “the Good News” is so good shouldn’t it be an automatic draw and be magnetic to all humankind without the organization relying on similarities to German youth training to sidestep rational thought? Why sing Book of Mormon stories in sunday school if the book and its content are not just gold but platinum?
Out of the echo chamber and into another.
Mormon Stories and John Dehlin have been one of my connections to the honest side of the church. That is a very small side on a very oddly shaped trapezoid. The LDS church represents to me as dishonest a religion as can be. It withholds vital information from investigators and long-time members alike. It obfuscates, prevaricates, revises, and distorts. This is common knowledge even among the most believing Latter-day Saints, although the more loyal ones try to suppress even this fact. As I sought to investigate the church, doing a “full-court press” in the process in order to determine whether it was worth my trouble to practice it as a religion, I did not read or study any so-called “anti-Mormon” sources; neither did I have to. Using LDS resources, I was able to determine very quickly that it was conceived, founded, and perpetuated in fraud and is demonstrably false. So I quit. My wife of 40 years and two adult children remain; they will not listen to me on matters of church unless I use some sort of credible go-between, such as John has been. Although he has no idea of this, he and his broad information and willingness to confront the truth have been very helpful in bolstering my own credibility.I think all of us dissenters would rather the church be “true.” I personally have dumped thousands upon thousands of hours in donated time and tens of thousands of dollars in donated money to the LDS church, so I would like very much for it to be true. Sadly, it is not. I feel like a real rube, but I’ve cut my losses to the best of my ability and moved on. The church is suffering now—we all know this. Missionary work is bottoming out due to the speedy availability of more trustworthy information. Even the doctored growth statistics from General Conference no longer inspire confidence. Long-time, active members are dropping out because the joy and fun of being Mormon has been sucked out of the church over the last few decades by a prickly and unhappy leadership. I’m off to more interesting things now, but will be checking in occasionally just for curiosity’s sake.mtYakima, WA
Mormon Stories and John Dehlin have been one of my connections to the honest side of the church. That is a very small side on a very oddly shaped trapezoid. The LDS church represents to me as dishonest a religion as can be. It withholds vital information from investigators and long-time members alike. It obfuscates, prevaricates, revises, and distorts. This is common knowledge even among the most believing Latter-day Saints, although the more loyal ones try to suppress even this fact. As I sought to investigate the church, doing a “full-court press” in the process in order to determine whether it was worth my trouble to practice it as a religion, I did not read or study any so-called “anti-Mormon” sources; neither did I have to. Using LDS resources, I was able to determine very quickly that it was conceived, founded, and perpetuated in fraud and is demonstrably false. So I quit. My wife of 40 years and two adult children remain; they will not listen to me on matters of church unless I use some sort of credible go-between, such as John has been. Although he has no idea of this, he and his broad information and willingness to confront the truth have been very helpful in bolstering my own credibility.I think all of us dissenters would rather the church be “true.” I personally have dumped thousands upon thousands of hours in donated time and tens of thousands of dollars in donated money to the LDS church, so I would like very much for it to be true. Sadly, it is not. I feel like a real rube, but I’ve cut my losses to the best of my ability and moved on. The church is suffering now—we all know this. Missionary work is bottoming out due to the speedy availability of more trustworthy information. Even the doctored growth statistics from General Conference no longer inspire confidence. Long-time, active members are dropping out because the joy and fun of being Mormon has been sucked out of the church over the last few decades by a prickly and unhappy leadership. I’m off to more interesting things now, but will be checking in occasionally just for curiosity’s sake.mtYakima, WA
I enjoy listening to some of the mormon stories podcasts, the interview with Shawn McCraney was my favorite! I was born into a 5th generation LDS family and called myself a mormon for 38yrs, until I surrendered my life to the Jesus Christ of the bible, now I call myself His.
I can’t understand staying under the confines of any religious institution, especially if you don’t fully believe what it teaches… just to have a nice social place to go for you and your family seems like you are living a lie? I’m sorry but knowing now what I know now about church history and all the many conflicting teachings and all the lies, I could not in all good conscience make it through an LDS service, I pray that you and your family and the rest find a relationship with the Lord outside of the bondage of this church, God Bless!
Had problems sending this in the reply section. Hope you don’t mind it being posted on the board.
Mesa Mom
My heart goes out to you as you struggle to come to terms with the doubts you have experienced; thankfully, you have caring priesthood leaders who are sensitive to your concerns and needs. I wish there was some advice I could offer which would be of some benefit to you but sadly I am still searching that lonely road which at times often seems dark and threatening and without an end in reach. Others have traversed this path and have found peace or at least some answer which will satisfy their yearnings and are therefore more qualified than me.
You mentioned that you hope to come to ‘feel God’s love again,’ I hope you do to, and for me perhaps this is the only encouragement I could offer you. When I am plagued by doubts, when I come to question all that I hold to be true, when I come to the point of not just questioning the truth of the gospel but the very nature of God’s existence, I experience this sense of numinous that strengthens my limited faith persuading me that there is something more to life than mere chance, and an eternal power that fills the immensity of space and yet somehow seems to find a place within my heart. Our journey must not just be just of the intellect but of the heart also.
God bless you in your journey, may you find happiness and joy and fulfilment in all that you seek.
I am a father of 4 little girls and I urgently want this
church to be better for them. I want my
daughters to be empowered. This church
has so much unfulfilled potential!
Ideally, my daughters should have full equality. However at a minimum, give them BACK their
organizations!
Remove the Relief Society, Young Women, and Primary
organizations from male priesthood supervision.
Women are equally entitled to the same Spiritual Gifts as
men. Allow them to exercise these
Spiritual Gifts:
- Allow the Relief Society to select their leadership!
- Allow the Relief Society to structure their organization
as they are inspired!
- Allow the Relief Society to control their budget!
- Allow the Relief Society to set their curriculum &
have publications!
-Allow the Relief Society Presidency to sit equally on the
stand at church. Allow them to conduct
half of the meetings. Is conducting a
priesthood ordinance?
- Allow women to fill and work with men in none priesthood
callings (Sunday School Presidency, Institute Directors, Mission Zone Leaders
and Assistant to Presidents, College Presidents, ect…).
- Allow the Relief Society to partner with bishops and have
an equal role in Church Welfare!
- Set apart Relief Society Leaders as “Judges in Israel” (as
Deborah in the Bible). Peradventure, if
one of my minor daughters would have a need to confess and repent; I’d much
rather have them approach and receive counsel from a female leader. I find it HORRIFYING that they would be
required to confess sexual sins, one on one, with a male bishop. This is an egregious policy. I’m stunned that this has not resulted in a
multitude of child sexual assault charges against bishops. Untrained and professionally uncertified bishops
should never speak one on one with minor female child, especially to discuss
sexuality. This is something that I will
protect my daughters from.
- A better scenario (but still far from perfect): The Stake Relief Society President would seek
inspiration and call the Ward Relief Society President. The Ward Relief Society President would call two
counselors, one to watch over the Primary and one to watch over the Young Women. The Relief Society President would seek inspiration
and call additional women to meet all organizational needs. Relief Society Leaders would meet often with
their male counterparts and as a Team further the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
- Allow the Relief Society to be Prophetess and Priestess!
I’m in the US Military and currently on deployment to
Iraq. I work with women every day. We are equal and professional peers. I value their example, mentorship &
leadership. Diversity has made the US
Military stronger. Moreover, in this
work environment I remained totally faithful to my wife. If the military can figure this out (we are
usually behind the curve), the Church of Jesus Christ can.
I hunger and pray for the opportunity to receive a blessing
from my wife. I hunger and pray for the
opportunity to bless my children with my wife.
Spiritual gifts are mentioned in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and
D&C. These gifts are not gender
specific. They are “Gifts of the Spirit”
and not “Gifts of the Male Priesthood”.
You (and your wife) have my sustaining vote.
I do not dislike Mormon Stories, but I do not like it either. I do not think it serves God, but rather, serves the vanity of man — mostly, and to a degree helps record some history.
I do not see why John Dehlin should stay in the Church, but I do not clearly see any reason he should be excommunicated. I may not know much in that area.
I think people who get all upset about the history of the Church and think that this history somehow proves it is not true, are simply not very thoughtful or not very spiritual or something along that line. Perhaps they have unrealistic expectations about the way the Gospel and the Church works or “ought” to work — and feel let down when things are not in keeping with their views. I do not have that sense. I feel very happy to see the history of the Church — showing how God provides the restored Gospel to us and often helps through revelation, but then lets us figure out how to do His will using our best knowledge and abilities. That does not at all bug me and it ESPECIALLY helps me better understand the things that were going on in the days of Jesus and the New Testament. I feel like I understand the New Testament so much better when I see the more modern examples of Joseph Smith and the Apostles since then.
I do not agree with people who, not having the keys of the kingdom, nevertheless want to take it upon themselves to say how the kingdom should be run. They seek to steady the ark — without the authority or revelation to do so. They want to replace revelation with their own wisdom. If they do not believe the Church is led by revelation, they should not be part of it. If they do, they should not try to usurp the role. I believe that people who want to be critical of the Prophet and Apostles in our day, are only laying down the pavement of their own destruction. The Gospel will continue to roll forward but they will not be part of it. They will find all kinds of reasons for their disappointments that will not be their fault, but rather, the fault of the Gospel or the Church.I am very grateful for the Gospel of Jesus Christ — even though I have not seen all the promises of the Gospel fulfilled in my life. There are some areas that have been disappointing, but still, I get a sense that the Gospel has been good to me.I consider the enemies of the Church to be doing evil in their fight. I do not consider inactives or the apostates who are “hangers on” to be enemies, but I do not sustain them in their lukewarmness — and I do not sustain the Dehlin’s in their decision to be unfaithful. But I recognize that agency is a precious gift and I say if they want to leave.. don’t hinder them!But if they don’t want to leave, they should not be excommunicated merely for being unbelieving or similar things. However, if they are overtly or covertly seeking to destroy the faith in others, they should be excommunicated with expediency.
In my view, there was no going back once I dug deep into the history. It’s not about the history, per se, but about the fact that the men that the Lord called to be his “prophets” continuously said and/or did things that were incorrect and/or led people and/or the church astray. Jesus said that if a prophet says one thing and that thing does not come to pass, then that is the prophet whom ye shall not fear (in other words, that man is not a prophet). It’s as simple as that. There is no justification, in my mind, to say or think anything different. Anything else I see as sheer rationalization or an attempt to make things true which really are not.
I don’t know of a case where the things that they said were incorrect or led the Church astray — any more than in times past, such as the words of Jesus Christ.
This is what I meant when I said, it made me understand the Lord and the Apostles better. When I read of similar problems in the New Testament, they do not trouble me any more, as they did before. Because I have a testimony of the restoration of the Gospel.