Introduction and Podcast Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 129

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories Podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. Well, Lisa Butterworth, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Now, I went back and looked in my archives. The first time I contacted you about doing an interview, believe it or not, was in 2005. So not only were you one of the first people I ever thought to interview, but it's taken us like five or six years to actually do this. What's up with that?

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:40] I am very difficult and extremely flaky.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] I doubt that, but I'm just so glad, I'm so glad you could come on. So thanks again.

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:52] Thanks for having me. I wanted to do it from the very first. I just, you know, it was always like, well, when my. Won't my kids be around and ah, they're always around.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah, you're caring a lot. So. Well, let's start. I love to hear, as much as you're comfortable talking about, about your, your young years growing up in the church, you know, all the stuff that would lead to, but not include including your decision to start your blog. So tell us about you.

Growing Up Mormon in Small-Town Utah

Lisa Butterworth [00:01:23] Okay. Well, I grew up in a small Southern, very Mormon town, Castle Dell, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Where's Castle Dell?

Lisa Butterworth [00:01:33] Castle Dell is southeastern, kind of between Price and Moab.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] Okay.

Lisa Butterworth [00:01:39] It's the middle of nowhere, and there's no reason to go there unless you really mean to go there. It's not on the way to anything. But it was very, it was a really nice place to grow up. And it was a very lovely church atmosphere. Like, I just felt very included and very much part of the church. And, and I loved, you know, I loved my neighbors and the people I grew up with and the people in my ward. I just really always, I just always had wonderful experiences in the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] What were your parents like?

Lisa Butterworth [00:02:13] My parents are very conservative. Well, my dad passed away a couple years ago, but he was very conservative. And my mother's still quite conservative. She's very, very traditional, but also doesn't fit the traditional mold as well as she'd like because she's kind of mouthy and tactless like I am. And so, you know, she always would admire the ladies who were all sweet and quiet and demure, but she was never quite that woman. And my dad was just very mellow and he was the best person. He was just genuinely as good as he expected everybody else to be. And my mom, too. Just really easy to be around, easy to grow up. Best parents, best. My, my brother Always says that we won the parent lottery and they, you know, they really had high standards about church stuff. You know, we were expected to take seminary. We were expect, you know, we did family home evening. We woke up early for scripture study. But, but it wasn't oppressive or anything. At least it wasn't for me because I was genuinely into it. You know, I liked it and you know, they really versed me in Mormon doctrine and scripture and they, they took it all very seriously and they did a really good job.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] But what was your dad's profession?

Lisa Butterworth [00:03:47] Well, my dad was a coal miner for most of my childhood. But then when, when I became a teenager, he got laid off from the coal mines and went back to school and became a school teacher. So he was a schoolteacher for the last few years that I was home and my mother was a housewife until just about the time, just about the time that the coal mines went down, she actually went back to school and became a school teacher as well. And so she had just gotten a job as a school teacher when my dad got laid off as a coal miner. So that was good. It kept us through the hard times. And so then my last few years at home, they were both school teachers.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] And how many siblings?

Lisa Butterworth [00:04:37] I had five brothers and two sisters. Yeah. And I was the youngest.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Youngest of eight.

Lisa Butterworth [00:04:45] Uh huh. Youngest of eight. And my dad always grew a really big garden, you know, very Mormon. And my mother always preserved everything all summer long. And we had chickens and a couple acres and big pile of coal in the backyard to burn in the fireplace. And. And because he was, you know, worked in the coal mines and then most of my brothers now work in the mining industry. My. I have a brother that works with the gold mines and two brothers that work with the Toronto mines in Utah, Wyoming and Nevada actually.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Okay.

Lisa Butterworth [00:05:26] Yep. And then the other two, what did they do? Oh yeah, nothing to do with mines.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Have you ever seen the movie How Green Was My Valley? No, it's a coal. It's an Oscar winning movie on a coal mining town. You should see it.

Lisa Butterworth [00:05:42] Oh yeah, I'll have to look that up.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Classic.

Lisa Butterworth [00:05:46] Yeah. Most of the mine accidents that you hear about in Utah, there was one last year and you know, several. That's all usually right where I grew up.

Discovering Feminism and Attending College

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Did you go to byu? What was your, what led to you becoming a self proclaimed feminist? Like what, what in your journey took you down that path?

Lisa Butterworth [00:06:05] Well, you know, I think the seeds of it started early because there are a lot of little things that I, that kind of stick in my head that just didn't, didn't make sense to me, you know, and they were, you know, I've blogged about, blogged about this but you know, it started out with little questions like, well, if people in the rainforest don't wear clothes and they don't have garments, does that mean they're bad? And then, you know, we'd go on family vacations and I'd see adults wearing shorts and I just would be so discombobulated by that because they didn't seem like evil people, but they weren't. They were wearing shorts. And that was so wrong. Grownups don't wear shorts, you know, and just lots of little things that I sort of realized that, you know, I just didn't, it just didn't make sense to me. And, and one of the big ones was with African American cult. Well, my brother, one of my brothers moved to North Carolina and I went and spent a summer with him when I was 16. And oh my goodness, the stuff that he said about, you know, the, the mark of Cain and the, you know, the less righteous people in the pre existence and all that kind of stuff. And I kind of thought like a part of me felt like I had to believe that because, you know, some. So often you hear it's, you know, it's all or nothing. You, you believe it or you're, you know, you're a bad person. And my brother was, you know, he was very, very sure of his opinions and I, and, but it made me kind of, you know, like I felt like I had to believe it and I tried to believe it, but it never really sat well with me. It never, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to accept that. And as I couldn't bring myself to accept that, I think that that sort of allowed me not to accept some of the other unfairnesses, you know. Like, I remember my mother going in to the bishop and throwing a huge fit because the boys were getting all this boy Scout stuff and the girls weren't getting anything. And I remember how much trouble she got in and, and you know, just little things like that that I just, I, you know, and my mother would always say, well, it's just the people, it's not, it's not the church, you know, but sometimes, but, but I, you know, I, I was jealous of all those boys passing the sacrament. I wanted to do that, you know, and I just. Little things and I tried not to be and I tried to just accept it and I tried to believe all those, all the Standard excuses, but I just never. It never, none of it ever really sat well. And, and I was 18 and I left home. I went to. I went to Utah State and got married right away in Logan. In Logan, yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Oh, go Aggies.

Lisa Butterworth [00:09:06] Go Aggies. But that, you know, 18, right when I was leaving home was really when I was starting to have my faith crisis. And part of that was that I had. I'd never had that, like, burning in the bosom or that confirmation that they always say that you should have. And I really started to get confused when I would have because I thought that the spirit was that thing that, you know, like that goosebumpy feeling you get when someone says something that, you know, really strikes home. But then I would get that goosebumpy feeling in places that had nothing to do with the gospel. I remember, I remember getting it while watching a movie about the Freedom Riders, right? And you know, that just really didn't work with them being less righteous in the pre existence. And then I'm having this confirmation, you know, this spiritual experience while watching a video about the Freedom Riders. And you know, like, it just, it didn't work for my black and white way of thinking. It just didn't work. And so I decided that I hadn't really ever had that spiritual experience. And so I, I so started reading my scriptures every day and praying like crazy and fasting all the time to have this spiritual experience. And I probably started that when I was about 17. And I went years and years without ever missing a single day of scripture reading, scripture study. I took it really seriously. And after a while, and in that time I met my husband and, and the bishop that I went to. I told him, you know, when we were going in for our temple recommend interview, I told him, I'm like, you know, I've never had that confirmation. I really, I've been trying really hard. I want it, and I've been praying and I've been trying. And he was, he was like, oh, you'll be fine. You'll be fine. You know, and so I was really honest about the kind of crisis I was in, but he, he didn't think it mattered. And so he, and I figured, you know, well, he's the one that has the, you know, the authority and the, and the, you know, spiritual confirmation that I'm supposed to be in the temple. So if he thinks I should be in the temple, then I'm gonna go. And. And I was really honest with my, my future husband as well. I'm like, I'm Sort of having a faith crisis here. And I don't know, it didn't seem to bother him. I, I, I think it did a little bit, but I, I don't know. I've never really discussed that with him. He, I don't know. He wasn't quite ready to get married, I don't think. I mean, we were really young, right, but, but, you know, we were kind of at that spot where young Mormon couples get, where it was either, it was either, you know, commit a big sin or get married.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Right, right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:12:15] And, you know, and he just couldn't bring himself to, you know, and, or break up or break up. And we sort of tried the breaking up for a week or two, but it made us both really miserable. So we, so we got married. And it has worked out really well. I mean, I think back on who I was at 19 and I think, oh, wow, I'm so lucky, so lucky that I didn't make a really stupid mistake. But I, I've been really happy with my choice. He's a wonderful man. But anyway, so that, but he grew up in a whole different kind of family. He, his family, they were never terribly active in the church. They started becoming active in the church when he was in high school and started becoming active himself. And a little bit, you know, they went to church a bit with him, and then when he went on his mission, they started really going to church quite a bit. But they're more, a lot more casual about it than my family, you know. Well, so we got married and I don't know, we just, I just sort of drifted for a while. Well, for a while I still really tried hard, actually. I was really, I was still into the whole scripture reading and searching and seeking and, you know, just trying so hard to get that spiritual confirmation that I thought I needed in order to have, in order to have, you know, a testimony. And then after a while, we didn't really mesh well in our ward at all. We felt sort of, you know, like, I don't know, it just didn't work. It just wasn't a good place.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] And where were you at the time?

Lisa Butterworth [00:14:03] Just in Logan. In Logan. And I don't know why, I think, I don't know why, but. And so we went to church, but we didn't, weren't really into it. Like, I'd always been, you know, like I'd always been so into it and I'd always been, you know, called to the, you know, to some, you know, leadership role and, you know, but, and that just didn't happen anymore. We didn't get callings that. I don't know, it just. And so, you know, we still went to church, but we were just not into it. And things just kind of went on like that for a while. And then after a while, I kind of got to a point where I just. I don't know, I sort of felt like this is never going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] And I sort of lost hope in receiving a confirmation.

Lisa Butterworth [00:14:52] I did. I'm like, I have done everything. Everything that they tell me that I am supposed to do. Nothing, you know, and. And it couldn't possibly be me. So just a second. I'm letting my dogs out.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] No problem.

Lisa Butterworth [00:15:06] The dogs.

Guest 1 [00:15:06] Oh.

Lisa Butterworth [00:15:08] So I'm like, it couldn't possibly be me. It must be. It must be that there's no God maybe, you know, and that was so. Oh, goodness, you know, like. I don't know. I didn't know. I didn't know how to deal with that idea. And I was really unhappy about it for a long time. And I finally was about to just accept it, just say, okay, I guess I'm not cut out to be, you know, all this. All this work and all this. Oh. And in the meantime, while I'm going through all that, I just started also realizing that I wasn't politically conservative. And I think that might have been also part of why I wasn't really meshing with my ward anymore. Because I wasn't used to not agreeing with all those comments in Sunday school. But I kind of started. I remember going to an institute class and the teacher telling me that nothing good came out of the feminist movement. And I remember thinking, he cannot possibly mean that. There's just no way that he can mean that, you know, because I didn't know what to think of the feminist movement myself. But nothing. Please.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Right, Please.

Lisa Butterworth [00:16:24] And, you know, I just. That. And I just sort of realized that this black and white thinking wasn't working for me. And I started realizing that I just, you know, a lot of the political things, I mean, I still really struggled with a lot of issues politically and spiritually, but I just. I wasn't in that black and white mode of thinking anymore. And so I guess I just got to this point where I just threw everything away. Like, I threw all of my preconceptions away. I just threw, like, everything that I thought I had believed, I just threw it all out. And I sort of started from scratch.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Now, what age was this?

Lisa Butterworth [00:17:05] Oh, probably 21, 22, you know, and so. And so, you know, I started. I don't know, just asking questions I used to, you know, like. And part of it, I think, too, was my husband, because I would just get so upset about things, and I'd say this and this and this and this. And he'd say, well, how do you know? And then I'd say, because I know. And he'd say, well, how? Then I'd have to think about it, and I'd be like, I really don't know how I know that. You know? And so he was just sort of hard on me that way, which was good. I needed it.

Staying in the Church as a Liberal Feminist

John Dehlin [00:17:40] And so were you taking classes on feminism in college?

Lisa Butterworth [00:17:47] I took one class. Well, I. I took a class on women's history, but that was. That was it. I. And, you know, that was. That was interesting. I learned a lot. And I wish I would have taken more. I really do. I wish I would have, because I'm very interested in that sort of thing. And I also took a black history class, Black History of Black America from Ross Peterson.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Oh, wow. He's great.

Lisa Butterworth [00:18:21] Oh, yeah. Have you ever interviewed him for Mormon Stories?

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Not yet, but he's here at usu. I'd love to. I've met him.

Lisa Butterworth [00:18:28] Oh, he's. He is the most amazing teacher ever. Ever. But. And I. And I also, you know, I went to Ross several times saying, you know, how do you do this? How do you, you know, how could you. How do you do this Democrat, Mormon thing? You know? And are you sure you seriously believe in the church? You know, like, really? And he, you know, and. And. But, you know, you can't borrow someone's faith. I was kind of hoping I could borrow his faith. And. And I also remember thinking, well, I think Einstein believed in God. Maybe if I read more about Einstein. And he's so smart, he must know something. I don't know. But you can't intellectualize yourself into faith. You just can't do it. I tried. I tried.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:19:18] And then what happened basically, that kept me in the church was that I finally did have a spiritual experience. I was just driving with my good friend, my only feminist Mormon friend, and we. And I had just gotten. We were kind of on a road trip, and I was just kind of. I'd gotten to the point where I was just going to admit it. I was going to accept that. I. I just didn't know. And I was gonna. I was gonna just. I'm like, I'll just be an agnostic. That's fine. And I was going to tell her. I was going to admit, you know, we were Talking about God and religion and Mormonism and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, I'm going to tell her. I'm going to tell her I don't believe anymore. I'm going to, I'm going to do it. And at that moment, like I couldn't speak the words. Like I was going to say I don't believe in God. And I couldn't say the words like, because at that moment I did. Like at that moment I just had this overwhelming feeling. This just presence, this belief, this faith suddenly that I had not had all that time. I suddenly had it. Like, I don't. It just was there like where it hadn't been before. It was. And, and you know, the intellectual backs. Back end of my mind is saying, oh, you just want to believe it's so bad that you're making, you're creating this moment yourself. And then, and then this other part says, but you know what if this is a gift and you throw it away because you're talking yourself out of it, you know, this, that's ridiculous. You know.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Yeah.

Lisa Butterworth [00:20:54] And so, and so I just decided to accept the gift that this. I was, you know, I was just going to accept it for what it was and I could intellectualize myself out of it. And I, you know, there are moments when I, when I'm like, oh, forget it, you know, that. But, but, but I just knew and I felt like, okay, I asked for it for all those years and if I throw it away now, then that's really ungrateful.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] So what did it come in the form. As form of.

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:29] Well, you know, it's actually that same. You mean like the feeling?

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Yeah. What was the form of the witness for you?

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:36] Well, you know, I. You've heard that, you know, like your lips become stopped or whatever. Like what is that? That the. They say that your lips can't. Like if you're about to say something that's wrong, you cannot.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Like a stupor.

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:49] A stupor. A stupor of thought. It was a stupor of thought when I went, you know, I was going to declare my agnosticism and I had a stupor of thought, you know, like my lips wouldn't speak those words. And at the same time, like, I just believed. Like, I just felt like, no, God is real and God loves me and, and you know, feel, you know, I just felt loved and I felt, I don't know, I just felt. It's an emotional. I don't know. No, that's good witness thingy.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:22:26] Yeah. You know, it's Just I guess in the same way that you can't intellectualize yourself into faith, it's a little bit difficult to explain an emotional spiritual experience in a way that makes sense, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] But for you it's real.

Lisa Butterworth [00:22:46] Yeah, for me it was real. And you know, the thing that kills me though is that I know so many people who've gone through the same thing that just wanted to believe with all their hearts and they, with every genuine, you know, every bit of hope, every bit as much faith and hope as I had and they don't get that. And I don't know why, but I completely sympathize with not getting it because I didn't get it for years, you know, so, you know, I, I don't blame anybody for giving up when, because I gave up. I was, you know, I was there, I was ready, I was ready to give up. And I don't know, you know, I don't know why I didn't. One thing that always when I wonder why, why, you know, I kept at it all those years and you know, why at that moment I got that witness. One of the things that it reminds me of is when I was young and my, some of my older siblings were going through faith crises and were, you know, not living the church that the way they should, not going to church. You know, I was very judgmental about it because, you know, 12 year olds are probably, I don't know if all 12 year olds are, but I was, you know, and I remember, I really remember very clearly one time kneeling down and praying. I would never leave the church, you know, just praying with all my heart and soul that I would just never leave the church. And, and that, that sticks in my mind because I think of all the prayers that I said over all the years that I would remember that prayer, you know, but it really stuck in my mind. And then I remember also thinking at the same time, of course I won't leave the church. That is so silly. I could never leave the church. Me, you know, like, why would I even bother to pray about this? This is ridiculous. Of course I'd never leave the church, you know, but obviously I had no idea who I was going to become.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Sure, life throws a curveball sometimes.

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:42] It sure does. And you know, I just could not comprehend of a Lisa that wouldn't just, you know, be a hundred percent churchy.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Yeah.

Starting the Feminist Mormon Housewives Blog

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:52] But

John Dehlin [00:24:54] so what led you from that experience to blogging?

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:59] Well, it was actually quite a number of years. We moved up to Boise and, and had several wards here and the ward we were in at the time was pretty good. I mean, it's a very accepting, kind, you know, atmosphere. But I still never really felt like I blended in, you know, because I was all big old dirty liberal now. And I, you know, and I didn't have any, I didn't have any friends that were Mormon and liberal. I had a few friends that I could talk politics with, but they didn't really understand where I was coming from, from the Mormon perspective. And I had, you know, some Mormon friends that just were not interested in talking politics at all. And I, and I found that I really like to talk politics. I really like to talk. I really like to talk about doctrinal stuff. I really like to talk about all this kind of like, I like to intellectualize and overanalyze everything. And my husband's just not like that at all. And none of my friends that I had made here in Boise were like that at all. And I felt really isolated.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] When you call yourself a dirty liberal, I know you're kind of joking, but were there experiences that you had? Were there ways that people treated you that made you feel, you know, not like you didn't fit in? Or is that just sort of something you assign to yourself out of fear or paranoia or just things you hear that your views might not be welcome? Like, were you ever mistreated for progressive or liberal views or did you just sort of feel self conscious about them?

Lisa Butterworth [00:26:47] Well, my family loves to talk politics and they're all pretty conservative or libertarian leaning. And so, you know, whenever we would get together, you know, if I, if I expressed an abuse, they would gang up on me and attack and, and, you know, and, and also there's this, this indulgent, oh, she's the baby. She's, you know, like, she doesn't either. She's been, what's it called? Brainwashed. Either she's been brainwashed or she's just rebelling or, you know, but I was never the rebellious type of. And I'm really not the brainwashy type either. But, you know, they just, I don't know, it just rarely turned out well. And my mother, you know, when I sort of went, when I sort of dipped my baby toe into talking to her about, you know, the changes that I have that I had made in my thought processes, she just really couldn't handle it because she takes everything very personal. Like, if you don't agree with her, then she takes it so personally like that, you know, that you've rejected everything that she is and that you believe you're better than her and she is a wonderful woman, but she's really insecure that way. And, you know, I remember telling her that I was going to vote for Bill Clinton the second time, and, and she's like, why would you do that? You know, I tried to think of something sort of innocuous and innocuous. So I said, well, because he's going to support, you know, student loans better. And she was like, well, you can't just vote for somebody for that reason, you know, and, oh, she was so upset. And, you know, and I just, I knew I couldn't talk to her about it in any kind of rational, thoughtful, experience accepting way. And then at church, I really didn't talk about it because I already felt like an outcast. Like, I already felt like I didn't belong because I knew that my, the way I, once I started, you know, accepting that I had faith and that this is where I should be and that this is where God wanted me, I didn't, I still didn't feel like I belonged the way I used to feel because I used to belong just so sick seamlessly. Like it was just who I was. And, you know, and I felt really entitled to my Mormon ness and my, you know, being accepted. And when I became a liberal, I lost that. I lost. And when I had my faith crisis, I lost that feeling of being entitled to being part of the group. And so I really didn't talk about who I was or what I believed. And when people would say things in church, which they do pretty much every week, I, I rarely go a week at church where I don't hear two or three comments that are very politically conservative in, you know, and, and, and nobody challenges it, you know, nobody, you know, if somebody gets up and in, in Relief Society, somebody got up and was talking about how she was so proud of a woman that didn't accept and didn't accept an award from Obama because she was taking a moral stand.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:30:19] And, you know, and I, I just,

John Dehlin [00:30:23] and nobody learn to not fit in.

Guest 1 [00:30:25] Yeah.

Lisa Butterworth [00:30:25] And I, you know, and if you question that, then everybody, nobody, you know, nobody challenges the conservative views like that. But if I were to get up and, you know, say something about how much I love Obama and how, you know, then I would clearly not fit in. And I didn't know. And I think I worry too much about what people think about me.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Sure. Natural.

Lisa Butterworth [00:30:51] And so I didn't, I didn't get a lot of, I mean, the few times that I do or have said something, I have had some, you know, you know, less than fun experiences. There was just, you know, every. Everybody, every time I. I blog about it on Feminist Mormon Housewives, I say, you know, I just don't say anybody anything. And people say, you should say something because there are other people that are thinking the same things you are, and they think they're alone, just like you think you're alone. And if you don't say anything, then nobody ever, you know, nobody ever changes. And so I had really worked myself up. I'm like, okay, if I feel something, I'm just gonna say it. And it was one of the lessons at the end of the year about Joseph Smith, and it was about Joseph and Emma and their marriage. And the teacher asked, she's like, well, what were the challenges they had in their marriage? And, like, all these things come up. Oh, they lost children and, you know, they were always moving and, you know, a million things, but never the most obvious difficulty that they face. Polygamy. Not a single person brings it up. Not a single solitary person. I'm like, you cannot be serious. She asked us point blank, what were the challenges they faced in their marriage. And nobody's going to say anything about polygamy. And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to say something. So I raised my hand, and I'm like, well, you know, I would say that the largest difficulty they faced in their marriage was polygamy. And, you know, I. I didn't say anything really out there. I just tried to say that was really hard for Emma. Really, really, really hard. And, you know, and. And the teacher, like, like, completely shut me down. Like, she interrupted me halfway through my sentence and, like, did everything but jump over and tie me down to stuff socks in my mouth. Like, you know, like, oh, yeah, that was horrible. And then, you know, she went on with her next thing to change the subject. And, you know, I thought, okay, that'll teach. You know, like, I really felt completely shut down. Like, you know, this is just a historical fact. It's not like anything even remotely. I mean, you could say things about the way he handled polygamy that would be much more traumatizing than that. Just saying. Just even saying the word polygamy, and I just get shut down. And, you know, and so that's kind of like, I don't want to do it again. I don't want to be the troublemaker that's always bringing up the thing that the teacher has to jump across the chairs and stick a sock in my mouth. Like, I just don't want to be that person.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:33:39] And some teachers handle it better than others. And this was the first time that she had taught a lesson, so maybe that was the problem too. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] So was feeling. Feeling out of step with your ward members part of what led you to start the blog then?

Lisa Butterworth [00:33:54] Yeah, it was right before the election.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] Which election?

Lisa Butterworth [00:33:59] The second Bush election.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Okay.

Lisa Butterworth [00:34:02] And I was just, like, crazy with my, like, intense desire to talk to people about this, and there was nobody. And, you know, I tried to talk to some friends that I had that were, you know, kind of on the more liberal side for, you know, Idaho, and they just didn't get the perspective of a, you know, like a former conservative Mormon trying, you know, like. I don't know, they didn't understand that the struggles. They didn't understand, you know, the. They didn't understand where I was coming from. And so I sat down and I started just Googling random topics, wondering if there was something, somebody, somewhere that was talking about these things. And also, yeah, I was starting to really struggle in my ward. I was really not wanting to go anymore. And, you know, I had lots of little kids. I had three little. Three kids under the age of four. And, you know, sacrament meaning is just horrible when you have three kids under the age of four. It's really torture. And you can't really talk about that either because, you know, it's supposed to be uplifting and spiritual and church is true and everything's perfect and. And I don't know, I was just really struggling, not really wanting to struggle anymore, not wanting to go to church, not wanting to deal with, you know, and all those things, I think just sort of came to a head and I sat down, started Googling. I think I Googled first feminist Mormon and I. And a few. Like, I think the article who wrote it by where have all the Mormon Feminists Gone?

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Oh, yeah.

Lisa Butterworth [00:35:50] I think that was the only thing that came up in Google.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:35:54] And so then I googled liberal Mormons, and that took me to the Times

John Dehlin [00:35:58] and Seasons, which was an early blog, right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:36:02] Yeah. Times and Seasons was one of the first Mormon blogs, along with Dave's Mormon Inquiry. Yeah. And so. And. And here they were, like, here were all these. They weren't necessarily liberal, but they. They talked about all these things that nobody else would talk about. You know, like, they were. They were just, like, throwing ideas out there, and they weren't thinking in black and white, and you didn't get shut down for saying things. And, you know, like. And, oh, I remember Reading the Times and Seasons commenting policies, and that was just like Christmas. I was just so excited because they say that you cannot question someone's righteousness, you know, because of their political beliefs or because of their, you know, that you cannot quit. And that was the thing that I always feared. That's the thing that just scared me to death. That is, if I said anything, then people would assume that I wasn't righteous, you know, because that seems to always be what happens if you. If you struggle with something. Well, then you need to pray harder, you know, then you need to. You need to read your scriptures more. And I really didn't feel like that was what my problem was. I felt like I was righteous enough or at least hopefully working on it enough, you know, and. And so, you know, like, oh, here's the spot. And then on the other hand, the other commenting policy was you couldn't assume that someone was stupid for believing. Which was where I had the other problem. Because my, you know, friends from the other side that got my, My, you know, political ideology often thought, why are you bothered with the church? You know, why do you bother if they're just driving you crazy? And, you know, like, I was like, okay, so that here is a group of people that sort of, by the rules, have to accept where I'm at right now. And I was just like, yay.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Wow.

Lisa Butterworth [00:37:54] It was so awesome. I was so happy. Like, I became a serious blog addict. It's all I did for weeks, months. And. But the problem was that the Times and Seasons when I first got on there, they had several posts that were sort of women's issues. There was an abortion post, and I can't remember something else. And I was like, oh, yes, these are all the things I wanted to talk about with someone. These are all the subjects. Oh, and I remember just my mind being blown open by the way that people could approach these things because I'd always thought that, you know, like, I. I'd never figured it out myself, that you could approach it from a different way that, like, I mean, I knew I didn't think in the black and white way that so many other people did, but I hadn't figured it out, like, how to think for myself. Like, I hadn't really figured out how I could be, you know, like a pro choice, pro life Democrat at the same time, you know, like, I could never figured that out, like, because I really was so uncomfortable with the issue of abortion. Just, you know, I really felt like it was a moral issue. But at the same time, I really really thought it should be legal. Right, right. But. And I didn't know whether I should label myself pro life or pro choice. And I didn't know that there was any kind of. Like, I sort of felt like it was black and white too. Like you either had to be all in or all out. But I didn't. Like, it just never occurred to me that there were other choices. And, you know, here, all these, you know, especially Christine Haglin Harris and Julie Smith.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Right, sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:39:36] They were. They were the. The most active women back then. In fact, they're the only two women I can remember really being on there at all. I was just like, wow, I fell completely in love with them. I was like, oh, you ladies, everything I want to be. But then after that, like, there just wasn't a whole lot of, you know, other women's issues that came up. And there were lots of interesting posts, but, like, there were all these topics I wanted to talk about that had to do with, you know, kind of women's issues that just were not coming up anywhere. And, you know, I didn't have any control over that as a commenter. And I looked around for other blogs, thinking there must be other blogs where, where these conversations are happening. Where are they? And I kept looking and looking, and the by common consent had just started.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:40:27] And, you know, they. They had a few interesting posts, but again, it was mostly men, and they were mostly talking about things that, you know, they were interesting. They just weren't really what I wanted to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:40:40] And I realized that it just didn't exist. I finally, you know, after seeing several months of frustration, I realized this. What I want really just doesn't exist. There's no feminist Mormon site anywhere. So I thought, well, I'll start these conversations. You know, I didn't. I just thought, well, maybe Christine Hagland Harris will come over and chat with me about them or, you know, there might be a few other people that are interested like me. I figured it would be me and maybe three other ladies and. And we would just have a blast talking about whatever we wanted. And it would be fun and it would be enlightening because I could learn stuff from them. And so I went into blogger, which makes it very easy. And I chose pink because I decided I was going to embrace my femininity. And pink was just sort of a trendy color at the time, I think. And so I, and I, and I wrote down Feminist Mormon. And I'm like, you know, it was. It was an obvious kind of title, but I You know, I wanted something that said more about who, you know, that was a little catchier. And I, you know, I just was like, what else describes me? I'm like a housewife. And then I was like, oh, fabulous. Mormon housewives. That sounds so, you know, so oxymoronish.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:05] And I thought, well, that's great. That'll really pique people's interest. That'll be good. So I, I started it and I tried to start with like, some posts that weren't that. That were not that controversial because I. I didn't dare jump in the deep end of the pool.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:25] You know, so I just, I just did some posts about how much I hated veggietales because there were no female characters, and the female characters there were, were either evil or weak. And. And I don't. I don't remember precisely, but, you know, a few people showed up and I kept writing some, you know, just posts, getting a little bit deeper into, you know, some things that bugged me. And, you know, a few more people showed up and felt good. And then Kaimi from Times and Seasons did a post about my blog and more people came and then it sort of just really took off. Like, I invited a few people to help me with that. I invited one of the few Mormon feminists I knew to blog with me. She was my niece in law and she never had much time to do it. I know she reads it, but she's got like a real job and all kinds of responsibilities. But then I just found some people that stopped by and I invited them to blog with me because I knew that I wouldn't be able to keep it up, keep it really active on my own. And I wanted some other people to help me kind of just keep posts coming on and keep engaging conversations. But even early on, I knew that I couldn't do it by myself, that I just wouldn't have enough time. I never thought I would run out of interest, though. Like, I knew that if I could do it all day, every day for the rest of my life, I thought I would.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, Please consider either making a fight contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Skye Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or sky pixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest 1 [00:44:40] Dear to thee. Though like the wonder the sun gone down Darkness be over me My I rest a soul yet in my dreams I be Nearer my Go to thee Nearer my go to thee Nearer to thee. There let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou sendest me in mercy Angels to beckon me Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to thee. Then with my waking thoughts Bright with thy praise out of my stony grace Bethlehem so by my woes to be Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my God, Nearer to thee o' Rif on joyful wing Cleaving the sky, sun, moon and stars Upward I fly still all my songs shall be Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my my God, to thee Nearer to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to the. Sa.

Reception of the Blog and Topics Covered

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 130

Guest [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Didn't you get picked up, like, mentioned in the New York Times or some big newspaper really early on in this process?

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:24] Yeah, the New York Times.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] What happened?

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:27] I think we're about six months old. I'm not sure for sure. Maybe a year. And the. I just got a message in my emails from a New York Times writer, and she was. She'd been asked. Blogging at that point in time was big news. Like, blogging was just emerging. And, you know, some of the big blogs that are, you know, kind of really big now had just sort of started and were taking off. And so blogging was sort of in the news and someone had asked her to write a. The New York Times had asked her to write a article on religious blogs. And. And so she decided to write I don't know about women and religious blogs. And so. But most of the women she contacted that were writing religious blogs didn't want to reveal their true identities. And I was okay with that. I hadn't really been explicit about who I was specifically. And so that was a choice I had to make. When she called me and I'm like, well, would I rather be anonymous or would I rather be in the New York Times? And I had sort of decided that I wasn't going to be anonymous anyway. You know, I was going by my real name. I hadn't put my last name out there, but I just sort of, you know, decided that I wasn't. I didn't want to hide, I guess, that I was just gonna out myself. And if people that I knew ran across the blog, well, then they would have to like it or lump it. And I also was sort of ignorant about sort of the history of feminists being excommunicated. I hadn't read a lot about it. I didn't really know anything about it. So I wasn't. I didn't have as much fear as I might have been had I didn't lived through that as much as you should have. Well, I don't know if I should have.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Lisa Butterworth [00:02:21] Yeah, I know, I know. But, you know, and I also knew that there were lines that I wasn't going to cross that would for sure get me into trouble, you know, just because I wouldn't be comfortable crossing them anyway. But. And so I just. I decided to out myself and I said, sure, I'll go by my full name. And so we did, you know, a long interview and I got. And she wrote up the article and it wasn't all about feminist Mormon housewives, but the first three or four paragraphs were all about feminist Mormon housewives. And so then we got a big influx of new readers and we got picked up by quite a few different newspapers through that year and some magazines and they would give little bumps to our numbers, but we grew really fast those first few years, like doubled, at least, sometimes tripled readers every year.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Sure. So how were you received by the other members of what's now referred to as a blogger knuckle? Do you feel like you were warmly received then and now? Not so warmly received. Thoughts on that?

Lisa Butterworth [00:03:42] I think for the most part it was a pretty warm reception. Some of the more conservative, you know, more self proclaimed conservative people were maybe a little less warm, but not unfriendly at all. And for the most part, like all the, you know, kind of big bloggers, big names, early people were really kind to me and some of, and some of the most conservative, tight wad, I don't know, uptight. Some of them were so nice. They would, they helped me do a lot of the technical stuff on my blog that I couldn't figure out and they were really, really generous with just time and ideas and thoughts and. And so, yeah, I was really warmly received for the most part and by all spectrum, across the spectrum. I think there have been a few posts every once in a while. Not at first so much because I was a lot more hesitant at first because I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't want to cross any lines. And also I just, I wasn't as confident a blogger.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:04:56] And I wasn't as confident a person in a lot of ways because I, you know, after a while of doing the blog, I really learned how to have these conversations. Whereas when I first started, I didn't know how to have these conversations in a, In a thoughtful, balanced, measured, you know, I didn't know how to maintain that kind of atmosphere. I didn't know. I didn't know what I was doing at all and I didn't know. And I wasn't as emotionally distant as I am now because everything was new and everything. I was just figuring it out for myself. And now I have a certain emotional distance that I can be more logical about things. But at first I was really, you know, like I was a mo. Every person who insulted me just, oh, it tore me up and.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Right. You know, so what are some of the most common topics that you've explored or that have been explored on feminist Mormon housewives. Just to give listeners. Let's say there are listeners who have never even been to the site. What are the types of things over the years you've tried to explore?

Lisa Butterworth [00:06:01] Well, we explore pretty much anything that a feminist or a Mormon or a housewife might be interested in. You know, we do politics generally. Politics sort of follows the cycle of the election year. You know, like, we talk about politics a lot right before elections and then sort of goes off for a while. You know, obviously, when there was the Proposition 8 in California, we talked about gay rights all the time. It was constant. And. And we talk about, like, just general feminist issues, you know, all the frequently, you know, like. And we talk about motherhood. We talk about mothering issues. We talk about breastfeeding. We talk about, you know, not beating our children. We talk about, you know, like, discipline methods, and we talk about primary. And we talk about nursery, and we talk about, you know, anything that might pertain to motherhood. We talk about all the time. And we talk about, obviously, all of the kind of feminist issues that we have with the church.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Like what? Which ones?

Lisa Butterworth [00:07:14] Like, you name it. You know, we've had several after, you know. How long have I been doing this? Five years?

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Yeah, five years.

Lisa Butterworth [00:07:24] Yeah. So after five years, we probably had all of these conversations at least three or four times, you know, because. Because people that used to read 5 years ago don't read so much anymore, and new people find it all the time, and they want to talk about these things that, you know. And so, like, women in the priesthood,

John Dehlin [00:07:41] like, whether or not they should have it kind of thing.

Lisa Butterworth [00:07:43] Yeah. Whether women should have the priesthood, whether women want the priesthood, why they don't have it, why, you know, like, all. Whatever. And we. And, you know, it's usually precipitated by some experience that somebody has. We talk about, you know, Relief Society, we talk about our callings and ask for help with our callings. We talk about, you know, young women's and, you know, the Young Women's Manual and how it makes us crazy. And we talk about. We talk about polygamy a lot. We talk about Mother in Heaven all the time. We talk about, you know, temple issues and that when we try to be really careful, but some people, it doesn't matter how careful you are, they are upset that you were talking about the temple, especially if you have a problem with the temple, which a lot of Mormon feminists do. We try, you know, we try to be as respectful as we can be. But these are issues that tear people up.

Guest [00:08:45] And.

Lisa Butterworth [00:08:46] And I feel like if we don't talk about them here, I know from my own personal experience, there's really nowhere else. Unless you're lucky, you know, in your personal acquaintanceships, there's nowhere else to go. Yeah. Um, and we talk about. Oh, I don't know, we talk about housewifey stuff too. You know, like what it means to be dependent on men for our income and what it, you know, how much we hate cleaning or, like, cleaning or hate scrapbooking or love scrapbooking or hate makeup or love makeup or shave our legs or don't shave our legs or wear high heels or don't wear high heels or, you know, everything. Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Sure. So do you feel like you have a decent pulse on either the female experience in the 21st century church or at least the liberal female experience in the 21st century church?

Lisa Butterworth [00:09:56] Well, you know, there are times when I think, you know, because so much of my church life, so much of my Mormon self, is done online. I mean, I have the church experience every week where I go to church, but that's not really where I talk about the things that matter to me or, you know, delve into the things that are really on my mind. And so even though I have that experience every week, I do sometimes feel like I'm out of touch with the women that don't have any problems, that it just never occurs to. To be bothered by anything or that are just, you know, happy. And there are a lot of them. There are a lot of women who are just really not interested in feminist issues, and they're, you know, they. They don't understand where I'm coming from at all. And there are a lot of moments when I sit back and I think, wow, I've sort of lost. I'd lost my understanding of that. But then having had. Having have been that person at one time, you know, I feel like I can, if I try, I can tap back into that old me and sort of get into their heads if I need to. But sometimes I forget how. How really, at least on Sunday, they're probably in the majority. They are in the majority, you know, and. And I feel like as far as the liberal Mormon experience. Yeah. I think I probably as well versed as anybody in the universe on that. Right.

Defining Feminism Within a Mormon Context

John Dehlin [00:11:28] So define feminists. Let's just say we have listeners who were raised a lot like you and I. It's always been a scary word. You know, they don't know anything about it and scared of it. And maybe even remember feminists being listed as one of the three great enemies of the church, along with homosexuals and intellectuals. What's a feminist and what's the experience of feminism within the church? Let's just say for good and for bad, like, where is the church good for a feminist, and where's the church sometimes challenging for a feminist? So start from the top with what is a feminist?

Lisa Butterworth [00:12:17] Well, I think a feminist can be whatever you want it to be. I understand that there are a lot of women that are really scared of the word, that don't want to claim the word. But this actually brings me back to talking about Ross Peterson and one of the things that he told us, and it was actually he had gone on his mission to the south and become very interested in African American issues. And, you know, it was right during the civil rights era. And he came home and from his mission, and he was about to leave the church, and he was actually talking to Frank Church, and Frank Church urged him to.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Senator from Idaho, right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:12:53] Yeah. Frank Church, Senator from Idaho, actually encouraged him to stay in the church. He says, you know, if everybody who thinks like you leaves the church, if everybody who believes in civil rights leaves the church, then the church will never change. And I think that, you know, that the same thing applies to feminists. You know, if everybody who, you know, doesn't necessarily believe in the party line of. Or whatever they think the party line of feminism is, if they all won't claim the word, then, you know, feminism is whatever those more extreme ideas are, you know. But if you, you know, if you believe in equality for women, then anybody can claim the word feminist. And I. And I hope that more women will, because. Because I think there are so many issues that, you know, apply to, especially mothers and the inequality that mothers face. And that's my new passion right now is what I want to call motherhood feminism. Because I'm just so. You know, when I got married, even though I wouldn't have claimed the word feminist, I really thought that we would be equal partners. And we were. We really were. I mean, he did as much of the housework as I did. And, you know, we both worked and we both made money and we, you know, and there was just a lot of real equality between us. But as soon as I had a baby, I was just shocked at how my world changed and how there was no equality anymore. And it wasn't really my husband's fault, but I was just blown away. Blown away by how much of that burden fell on me, you know, like, there goes my Social Security, there goes my pension. There goes my, there goes, you know, my self reliance. There goes my. Into my ability to get out of the house and enjoy adult conversation. There goes all the freedom I had, making choices of what I wanted to do with my life. There goes all of the chances I have to do something fun because I have to spend all my time cleaning up vomit and poop and wiping doorknobs, you know, and, and it just consumed my life. And I realized this is not fair. You know, like, there is no equality for mothers. They're just, you know, you can be a father and still, you know, have a lot of work, family, balance that is equal to, you know, someone that, you know, someone that doesn't have children. But you cannot do that as a mother. There's just no options out there for mothers.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:15:47] You know, and, and that just, and that really shocked me. And I think even this next generation is more shocked because they've been told their whole lives that they're equal, you know, and they think they are. And when they're single, really single women have every opportunity that single men have. And so, you know, up through all their schooling, up through having their first exciting jobs, women are equal up until they hit motherhood. And then, boom, that equality is gone. It is gone, gone, gone. And so, you know, motherhood, feminism is where my passion is right now. But I think you can define feminism however you want, just so long as you accept that you are one. No, you don't have to. But I wish more women would become comfortable with it.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And there are men who call themselves feminists too, right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:16:39] Absolutely. And men too. I love it when men call themselves feminists because feminist men are way sexy. No, but so feminism in the church. Okay, well, I think on a lot of practical levels, feminism in the church is really difficult because you have a lot of dissonance. If you call yourself a feminist in the church. You're still under the authority of men all the time. You know, it's patriarchy. And so there is no practical equality. There is no, you know, you never get to be in charge. You never be. Get to lead. You never, you know, and a lot of men never get to either. But as a woman, you don't even have the possibility of ever leading. You know, there's no, there's. That's it. You know, and there's also just a lot of old fashioned ingrained sexism that is either subtle or not so subtle, where, you know, women aren't supposed to be in the church without a priesthood holder because, you know, what if there was a fire or, you know, like, we couldn't put out a fire or we couldn't call 911 or, you know, like a lot of little. Or, you know, calling my husband to ask if it's okay if I have a calling before they ask me, which actually makes my husband really upset, like, genuinely angry.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Do they not. Do they not do the opposite?

Lisa Butterworth [00:18:08] No, they don't. Not in my word. But, yeah, he gets mad. Like, he. Like, when they call to ask him, he'll be like, why don't you ask her? And then he'll stew for hours, which I think is cute, because men are sexy. And so, you know, on a lot of practical levels. And then also, you know, the issue of not, you know, and some of the historical issues like polygamy and the idea of polygamy in heaven, you know, obviously incredibly unequal and disturbing to a lot of women, even women who don't consider themselves feminists. And also the inability to pray or talk about our mother and pray to or talk about our mother in heaven or even theorize or question or, you know, wonder where. I mean, we're basically told not to think about it. And that is really disturbing to a lot of people, women who find themselves calling themselves feminists. But on the other hand, where I think Mormonism is really good for feminists, is that a lot of our doctrine, you know, if you look at it from the right angle, is really feminist doctrine. You know, the fact that we have a mother in heaven, now we're not allowed to talk to her, but who else has a mother in heaven? You know, no one. Well, I guess the Wiccans probably have something like that, but, you know, it's very. It's very feminist in a way. Then there is, you know, the way that Mormons tend to view the story of Eve, completely different, turning it on its ear, where Eve made a noble choice in order to, you know, give everybody bodies and all allow us to be, you know, to know good from evil and that that was a good thing and that she made, you know, a good choice and that, you know, so that is obviously not a very standard Christian sort of view about that story. And. And then, you know, our view of the eternities of, you know, that depending on how you choose to view the polygamy issue, and I tend to just sort of put it in the back of my mind because I have no idea, but, you know, depending on how you choose to view our view of the Afterlife, we have, you know, two people who get to progress for eternity together as equals. You know, priests and priestesses and gods and goddesses and. And, you know, that's a really kind of feminist ideal.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] Sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:00] So I really, really like the feminine or the, you know, the Mormon view of afterlife way better than I like, you know, standard Christian views of the afterlife.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:13] Totally Mormon that way. So, you know, so. And also for being a feminist in the church, you know, this is a hard one to say because there have been a lot of women who've had really bad experiences with patriarchy where they've, you know, been abused or, you know, treated really poorly by men in positions of power. And that is a very real problem. But there are also a lot of women who have had really good experiences. I mean, for the most part, this. What do they call it, kind of chicken patriarchy. It works pretty well. Men, Men, in my experience in the church, tend to try really hard to make things as equal as they can, and they tend to not lord their power over their wives or their families or, you know, the people in their stewardships. I just. The ones who are doing it right. The ones who truly, you know, who are truly trying to live as righteously as they can, tend to, you know, be pretty fair. And I don't know, at least in my experience.

Guest [00:22:38] Sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:22:40] So. So, you know, if you. If you don't look at the structure of it, the results aren't too bad.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:22:50] So, you know, that's kind of the positives and negatives of being a feminist in the church, I guess, that cover it pretty well.

Guest [00:22:58] Sure.

Hoped-For Changes in the Church

John Dehlin [00:22:58] So are there any of. Like, this is always one of the most sensitive questions to ask, because I guess aside from being public about your views and speaking candidly about things that make people uncomfortable, maybe the only thing worse than being open and candid is sometimes acting or speaking out in a way that's viewed as either critical or even suggesting how you might want the church to act or change. Do you have aspirations or are you feeling comfortable even able to vocalize any aspirations for change? Like, would you like to see the women get the priesthood? Would you like to be able to pray to Mother in Heaven or have people be okay with praying to Mother in Heaven? Would you like to see section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants renounced? Like. Or, you know, again, if you're not comfortable, that's cool, too. I just thought I'd ask in case there are things you're comfortable talking about.

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:04] Geez, why don't you Put me on the spot, John.

Guest [00:24:10] Well,

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:12] you know, I think one of the advantages of having grown up in the church from the time I was little is I'm fairly comfortable with not being in control. You know what I mean? Like, I've never had the illusion in my life that I would ever be able to change the church, you know, never. It never. It's never crossed my mind that that would be a possibility. And I think that that was just because I've been born and bred as, you know, someone who will submit to patriarchy, and that may be a good or bad thing. I don't. I don't know. But it's, you know, it's. It's just who. How I am, I guess. And. And so I've never. I've never felt like I. That would. Was a possibility for me, you know, as far as what I would like to see, I'm never really sure. That's one of the things about my. The way that my faith works for me is that, you know, I have some really big, big things that I have faith in. You know, the really basic parts of the gospel that I believe in. And for most of the other stuff, I think it's all kind of speculation and, you know, like, just the way that tradition and. And I just. I don't have a lot of. I guess I don't have a lot of faith in the structure of the church, and I don't have a lot of faith in some of the peripheral issues. And so, you know, things like mother in heaven and priesthood. And I know that this is sort of. Sort of a standard answer that's not very satisfactory for a lot of people. I feel like it'll just work out. I feel I don't have any faith that it is the way it's supposed to be. I have zero faith that this is the way it's supposed to be. But I also am not terribly worried about it.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:26:12] Like, if, if, if it changes, that would be great. I would love it. I don't know exactly how that it would change or what changes would look like, but I just know that I don't like the way a lot of those things are handled now. But I'm not much of a doctrinal wonk either. So I'm like, I just don't, you know, the nitty gritty of how that would change our doctrine or how those changes would take effect. It's never. It's just, you know, not one of those things that I'm passionate about figuring out.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Sure, sure. What about the mother's experience in the church. I imagine that you're most attuned to a woman in the United States. But, you know, you hear things about Mormon women being depressed or high use of antidepressants within the church, and you're probably plugged into what it's like to try and be a Mormon woman in the 21st century more than most do you have. Are there trends you see in terms of things, things that are not working well or causing a lot of pain and suffering? What are the things. Let's say mothers are on the battle lines, Mormon mothers on the battle lines. What are the things that Mormon mothers are struggling with, and what are the things you think we might be able to do to help them and support them better?

Lisa Butterworth [00:27:55] One of the big things I really think needs to happen is that we need to both for Mormon mothers and for women who never become mothers. Because, dude, talk about it being hard to be a Mormon woman, being not a mother as a Mormon woman, I would say, well, I don't know if it's harder, but it's its own brand of really hard. You know, everybody has lots of different kinds of hard, I guess, but

John Dehlin [00:28:25] I.

Lisa Butterworth [00:28:26] I guess I think we need to change focus. I mean, I'm. I'm. I'm really. I really like the emphasis on family. And I think that we need to change the focus, though, from mothers to parents and being involved with their children and nurturing them and being, you know, like, making it so that men feel like that they need to be just as invested in their children's lives and welfare and upkeep the women are. And I also think that we need to change a lot of the focus from mothering being what's going to fulfill us. Because a lot of women don't feel fulfilled through motherhood. They just find it. I mean, there's a lot of fulfilling things about it, but it's also really taxing and really hard and really boring at times. And I don't know. So I think we need to change the focus from being fulfilled by motherhood or being made righteous through motherhood or, you know, to being fulfilled by. By becoming personally your best. You know, through your own spiritual growth, through making yourself into the best person you can be, through, you know, your own education and your own. You're not just here to make your kids be better people. You're here to make yourself a better person. And I feel like we don't get that message a lot at church. You know, we get the message that, oh, you're Here for your children and your spouse. And your spouse. No, we're not. We're here for our own spiritual growth. And I feel like that, that, that, that focus needs to change, you know, for all, for all of our, you know, for all of our messages that motherhood is a great way to get, get spiritual growth because it will tax you, but it isn't what will save you. And I don't know, I don't know that Mormon like the idea that Mormon women are more depressed than other. I think that if you were to, you know, like measure equivalent depressiveness over women that have equivalent lives, like women who are stay at home moms with kids, kids of a certain age, that. I think that, I think that probably Mormon women are about on par with most other women. It's just that we tend to be in more difficult situations because of the choices that we make because of church. Other women make those same choices sometimes. But, you know, we, we tend to have maybe quit school before we should have or not have as many options or stay in bad marriages or accept things from our husbands that we might not accept had we, you know, had a different view of the way marriage should be. Or, you know, like, I don't think it's necessarily being Mormon that makes mothers struggle. I think just being a mother, a stay at home mom, it's just a really emotionally difficult thing to do for a lot of women. And I think that there are. Yeah. And that there are a lot of women who probably shouldn't make that, the choice to do that.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] It's not for everyone.

Lisa Butterworth [00:31:51] No, it's really not for everybody.

Guest [00:31:57] You don't mean that.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] You don't mean that in a patronizing way, right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:32:00] I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Can I be patronizing about something I did myself? I feel like I survived it, but I feel like I might have been a better person, a better mother. I might be a better person now if I would have, if I would have held on to more of me during that time period. I was really lucky to have the blog. I feel like it saved me from complete insanity.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] How's that?

Lisa Butterworth [00:32:25] Well, I had a job kind of. I mean, it was, I wasn't getting paid, but I had someplace where I could go and I could do something that made me feel important that I got, that I, that I got recognized for. You know, it's a nice little emotional high to get written up in the New York Times or, you know, to have your face on the COVID of a magazine even if it is just sunstone.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] Right, Yeah, I remember that one.

Lisa Butterworth [00:32:52] Yeah. But, you know, and to have people tell you what you do with wonderful. Or, you know, to have all. Or to have, you know, thousands of people read it every day, you know, it gives. There. There's a certain mindset within Mormon culture that says, well, you should just do it because you know it's the right thing to do. You shouldn't expect anything for all this work you do. You shouldn't expect anybody to appreciate it. You know, this is about sacrifice. It's about. But the problem is, is that nobody really thrives under those circumstances. People need to be validated. People need to be told that they're doing good work. People need little awards sometimes. Or to be told that, you know, what they do is. I mean, not just be told what they do is important, but really know that what they do is important. We get told what we do is important all the time. But it does feel patronizing, quite honestly, because people don't really mean it. I mean, they. If they meant it, then they would. Then the circumstances of motherhood would be entirely different.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Would change.

Lisa Butterworth [00:33:57] Yes. Then motherhood wouldn't automatically equal a complete lack of equality in society, but that's what it equals. And so people don't really mean it when they say that what you do is important. Because when people really believe that something is important, well, then time and money and effort is put into making it, you know, worth. Worth time and effort. But people know that, you know, mothers are going to sacrifice, and so why. Why should we support them?

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Right. Right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:34:31] Yeah. So I'm completely lost. I have no idea what we're talking.

Ecclesiastical Pushback and Faith Tensions

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Let me ask you this. Have you ever been in. Ever been in trouble for. For what's been written on feminist Mormon Housewives? Have ecclesiastical leaders ever approached you or you ever been turned in or, you know, people have written in saying you're damaging people's faith or you're hurting testimonies or you're causing people to leave the church, anything like that.

Lisa Butterworth [00:35:00] I have never been approached by my bishops or, you know, any of my leaders. I don't. I sort of have this don't ask, don't tell policy about my blog. I know that there are people in my ward that know about it. I told you one of my friends about it. And, you know, at the time, she told my Relief Society president she's not my relief side present anymore. So I know that she knew. I don't think she ever told the bishop, or at least if she did, the bishop Never said anything to me. And you know, I, and I know that there are people in my ward who know that it's me and that who read it because I get comments from them sometimes or sometimes even people will ask me questions like, you know, like, oh, I was reading Mormon Enigma and ah, you know, help me. So, you know, I get, I get stuff like that every once in a while. But, you know, my home teachers have brought it up to me before, so I know that there are people that know, but I don't know who knows, but they never bring it up to me. So as far as.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Is that crazy that you can have a blog that's been read by 20, 30 people, 40,000 people, a lot of people in your own neighborhood, your own ward don't even know?

Lisa Butterworth [00:36:13] Yeah, yeah, it is kind of funny. But, you know, it's kind of like there are, there are certain kind of people who seek after, you know, some place to talk about those things. And there's some people that just. It's like my husband, he, you know, he's very feminist in his, in his actions, you know, in his. But he isn't. He would never look for a blog called Feminist Mormon Housewives. He would never find it. He would never read it. He just wouldn't be interested. It isn't, it's just not something. If it wasn't my blog and he still, he never reads it and it is my blog. It's just not something that is on his radar. He has no interest in it at all. He loves me. But, you know, all this crazy stuff going on in my head is completely. I don't know, but I don't have any idea what's going on inside of the car and he can fix it. So, you know,

John Dehlin [00:37:09] but,

Lisa Butterworth [00:37:11] but as far as, yeah, I do get comment. I do get emails and there are comments on a very regular basis from people saying, how dare you, you know, you're hurting the church. How dare you talk about this in public. This is better left in private. Or you're, you know, speaking ill of the Lord's anointed, or you're, you know, just all of the things that. All of the excuses that people give for not, you know, expressing your difficulties, and they're pretty standard. And sometimes I respond and sometimes I don't. Just depending on the tone. You know, if it's somebody that I feel like I can maybe reach in some way, I will often, you know, just try and write back in a very calm, measured way and say, you know, this may not be for you but there are a lot of people who are really helped by having some place to talk about these things. And, you know, I get emails all the time from people who also say, you know, you saved Fmh, saved my testimony. You know, like, I was, I was about to leave the church. I couldn't handle it anymore. I had no one to talk to about these things. The kids are getting really loud back there. Can you hear them?

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Don't worry about it. That's perfect for this episode.

Lisa Butterworth [00:38:34] But so, you know, I get, I get both ends. I get the call I get. And often if I tell people who are really upset, you know, that I'm. That we dare have these conversations. And sometimes it's a subject, you know, like there are some people that are just not comfortable talking about sex. And so they say these things should be private, you know, and then there are some people that just are upset about talking about the temple even when we try not to, you know, talk about things that are specifically not supposed to be talked about. Or there are people that are just really upset that the whole blog even exists. And, but often those people can be reasoned with if you explain, you know what, there are a lot of people who struggle. And, you know, our blog has helped strengthen a lot of people in the church and it's helped some people perhaps leave the church without some of the bitterness that they might have had without, you know, the blog. Or it's helped explain the church to people who otherwise wouldn't have been interested in learning anything about the church at all. You know, so. So it provides a lot of things that, you know, not having the blog around, there would be a hole. And I also think just one of the things I feel on my, for my own benefit is that I really feel like if the blogs, if Feminist Mormon Housewives and some of the other Mormon blogs were not on the blogger knuckle, well, then most, you know, if you, if you Google subjects that bother you about the Mormon church, you're going to get, you know, either anti Mormon sites that really people that are really bitter and absolutely hate the church and will say all kinds of things that are either not true or only half true, or, you know, just really unbalanced and a lot of seething anger underneath. And that would be the only other alternative to the church website if the blogs weren't there. And, you know, and in the choice between those two things, someone who's curious about, you know, well, is this piece of church history true? They're probably going to rely on the anti Mormon sites more than the official church website because, you know, I don't know, because they're more exciting, you know,

John Dehlin [00:40:55] or maybe, maybe the church has lost some credibility with the them because they feel betrayed or misled by what they in seminary or institute or whatever.

Lisa Butterworth [00:41:05] Right. And so, you know, they heard, they hear something about Joseph Smith and polygamy or Joseph Smith and his debt or they, you know, and if there's only the choice between the extreme ex Mormons and the church website, you know, I don't think that's going to be a healthy thing for the church. And so, you know, the blogs provide kind of this middle ground where people can go and get some of the straight answers that they want without a lot of the vitriol that you get in some of the anti Mormon sites.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] So what about the people who would say here's two questions. One is whatever good you think you might do, the fact that you have probably introduced some people to knowledge or feelings that ultimately led them out, that whatever good you think you might do could never be compensated for the few people who you might have let out. Let's start there and then I'll ask the second question. What do you think about that?

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:04] Well, I don't know. It could be true. I don't know. But you know, I sort of feel like if there's someone who is going to be let out of the church by something they read on fmh, then they're going to be let out of the church by something somewhere because you know, it's a big wide world and it's a big wide Internet and you know, if one little thing is going to lead you away from the church, then, then it's not really my fault. You know, like it's, that's something that's going to happen anyway because that's the kind of testimony you have. But also, I think, I don't know, I was just reading Rough Stone Rolling Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith and I've been finding actually a really uplifting experience. I know that if I would have read it when I was a teenager, I would have been traumatized. But I think it's so interesting that now I find it really, actually spiritually affirming. But I was reading there's a chapter in there about exaltation, the beliefs that he, that Joseph Smith taught about exaltation and how important knowledge was in, in his kind of metaph, metaphysical explanations of the universe. And you know, he didn't talk about spirit or you know, he talked about knowledge being, you know, kind of that the forming aspect of human beings. And so, you know, the idea that knowledge, you know, as long as I'm representing things truthfully and fairly, the idea that knowledge is in and of itself bad, I think is anathema to what we believe about knowledge being, you know, kind of the basic, important, fundamental part of what makes human beings human. And so, you know, I just think that knowledge is a good thing and sometimes it is hard to, you know, sometimes the knowledge gives you sort of this dissonance that it's hard to. Balance with your faith. But knowledge in and of itself, I think has to be seen as a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Along those lines, what about the people who would say, look, if the brethren wanted this stuff talked about, they would bring it up, they would talk about general conference, they would write lesson manuals. And so who are you to say that people need to have these conversations? Is that not the brethren to decide? And until the brethren decide that we need to have these conversations, you need to just follow their lead and not become a self anointed purveyor of open conversations. What would you say to that?

Guest [00:45:01] Well,

Lisa Butterworth [00:45:05] That's a hard one. I guess I would just. It's not the really, that's not really the gospel I believe in. I guess I don't, you know, it is it. We are told specifically that it's not, it's not meat, that we are commanded in all things. You know, they give us an outline, you know, we're given some basic, some basic principles and you know, we need to figure out our own way. And all I know is what I needed and I needed to have these conversations. I know I could not have stayed in the church without having these conversations either. I, you know, either I would have had to figure out a way to have it with friends who I personally knew, or no, but something would have had some way. I would have had to have these conversations with someone who understood and wasn't just someone who was going to say, well, you need to pray and read the scriptures because that was not working for me. And I was, you know, I was really reaching a point where I was going to break. And I know that people break all the time. So I don't know, you know, if that's, if you really think that the brethren have to tell you exactly what to do with every moment of your life and you can only learn the things that the brethren tell you specifically to learn, then I think that you just have an entirely different understanding of the gospel than I do.

Guest [00:46:28] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter.

Guest [00:46:51] Just kidding about those last two Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E S E k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest [00:47:28] Darkness be over me, my rest of soul yet in my dreams I be Nearer my Go to the Nearer my Go to Nearer to the. There Let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou sendest me in mercy angels to beckon me Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee. Then with my waking thoughts bright with Thy praise Out of my stony grace Bethel I raise so by my woes to be Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer my D Nearer to Thee O R if on joyful wing Cleaving the sky, sun, moon and stars upward I fly, still all my song shall be Nearer my my God to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee.

Lisa Butterworth [00:49:36] Sam.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 131

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. So do you feel like Feminist Mormon Housewives has had a net positive impact on people's faith? Do you feel comfortable enough asserting that that more people have stayed than have been driven away?

Lisa Butterworth [00:00:33] My impression from the kinds of emails I get from people would lead me to believe that and from the comments that I get on the blog, I have never, ever received an email from someone who said, you know, I had no problems with the church. Then I read FMH and now I'm leaving the church. I've never gotten that email. You know, I have gotten lots of emails saying I was on my way out. I couldn't figure these things out. I was so upset. I didn't, you know, I couldn't. I, you know, I felt so alone. I thought I was the only one. I get those emails all the time. I get emails from people saying, you know, I was on my way out of the church and I still left, but I left with a lot less bitterness than I would have left, you know, had I not had fmh. And I've had people, I've gotten emails saying, you know, I left the church years ago and I might not have left if I'd found FMH before I left. I've gotten emails from people saying, I want to join the church, but I didn't know if I could because I was a feminist. But now I'm going to join. I've gotten emails from people saying, I, I. My mind just went blank. Basically. I think it's a net positive. I think I do get emails from people who are very upset that I dare talk about these things, but I've never had any of them follow up saying, you've ruined my testimony.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Right, right.

Lisa Butterworth [00:02:09] And maybe that's just not something that someone would say. But, you know, I don't know.

Blog Readership and Community Connections

John Dehlin [00:02:14] What's the. How many people do you think you've reached in total through your blog? And what do you think your regular readership is? Do you have any idea?

Lisa Butterworth [00:02:27] Well, I don't really have any idea how many total it would be. I know that, you know, it changes over time. Like, people who used to be here don't come very often. It's like, even for me, I, you know, like I said, I would have read and written on the blog 247 for probably a year. I would have done nothing else. I wouldn't have eaten or slept. I just was so into it. But Then after a while, you've had. I feel like I've had all the conversations already pretty much, and I've already talked about all the subjects and I've resolved a lot of my own questions and I'm pretty comfortable with where I am right now. And so now a lot of what I do is just sort of for other people. I do it because I feel like, well, I mean, I still get the accolades and I still like being, you know, I still like people reading my stuff. And so, you know, it's not like all selfless or anything, but I do, for the most part, do it for people that I know that it really helps. And I think sometimes I wish that there was a Dread Pirate Roberts that could come in and be the new FMH Lisa and I could just retired to a island in the Caribbean. But, but. And I. So I have no idea, like, over time how many people have read fmh. I have no idea as far as how many people read it every day

John Dehlin [00:03:56] or every month or, you know, once a month or once a week or,

Lisa Butterworth [00:03:59] you know, I do have the stats things and I can open them up right now, but I don't. I kind of don't remember that very well. I think it's around right now. Unique visitors every day. So this isn't people who come back and read a second or third time or look at more than one page, but, you know, people who show up entirely unique from. At least from a unique computer because, you know, if they check their. If they check the blog from their BlackBerry and then they check it on their computer, it'll show up as two people, even though it's one. But I think we're close to 4,000 a day.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Wow.

Lisa Butterworth [00:04:37] Unique, unique readers. We'd been kind of hovering at that level for a while. You know, for the first few years we grew really fast. The last couple years we've just sort of hovered right around 4,000. And sometimes we go up a little, and sometimes we go down a little, you know, depending. Like, December seems to be kind of low because people are holidaying and right before, you know, elections, November tends to be pretty. Or October. November tends to be a little heavier, but yeah, right around 4,000 unique visitors a day.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Is that the highest it's ever been?

Lisa Butterworth [00:05:20] 4,000?

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Yeah.

Lisa Butterworth [00:05:22] No, I mean, there are sometimes, like during certain conversations or certain things, it's gone up really high. I couldn't tell you exactly how high, the highest it's been, I don't remember, but it's been really high. I don't know, that's great. Yeah.

Reflections on Motherhood, Marriage, and Family

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Well, Lisa, why don't we do this? I think we would be remiss to not have you share some of your feelings about, you know, motherhood and spousehood just from what you've learned and all your experience talking to women and listening to women and learning about people's experiences. So I know this is a huge, broad topic and, you know, you could probably spend hours on it. But, you know, there are a lot of mothers out there, there are a lot of wives out there. There are a lot of husbands and men out there. And any perspectives or impressions or words of wisdom, things you've learned from motherhood or from spousehood that you want to share or want to leave with our audience.

Lisa Butterworth [00:06:28] One thing I was just thinking about as you were asking that question is I was thinking about the study I just read about how getting married young is, you know, one of the leading signs that you're going to get divorced later. And also getting married young also is one of the big signs that you're even if you don't get divorced, that you're going to be more unhappy and have more challenges in your marriage than people who get married older. And I just, as I was reading that study, I was thinking, you know, I. It's really curious. The church has such a strong emphasis on getting married, you know, pretty much as soon as you get off your mission or for girls, you know, choose to get married before you go on your mission, you know, before a mission, make that choice. That's the more important choice. And, you know, having been married so young myself, you know, I think, I wonder if it, I wonder about that emphasis, you know, if we truly value marriage and families, wouldn't it be wiser to change that emphasis, that, you know, get your education first? The thing that makes it difficult, obviously, is, you know, trying to maintain not having sexual relations until you're older. But it seems like it would be more important to create really strong families and really strong marriages, you know, to encourage people to be a little older when they get married, just because statistically speaking, we might have a lot stronger marriages. And just thinking about my own journey in being married to my husband, I think about how, you know, when I, when we first got married, I knew I was sort of entering a bit of a faith crisis, but I didn't know the extent to which it would go. Like, I really just firmly still believed at that point that at some point that, you know, it would all work out, that, you know, it still didn't occur to me that I could ever leave the church at that point. And I think, you know, if I had. If I had lost my faith and Niall had been. My husband had been married to someone entirely different. Well, he is, anyway. But, you know, you change so much in those years. You're just not formed yet, really, that if you're a little more settled in your faith and your worldview when you get married, you have a clearer idea of who that you're married to. And luckily, my husband was just so mellow about all of my faith crises and my political crises and my who am I? Crises. He was just like, you'll figure it out. And he just loved me through it. And I think. I think it was hard on him, but he never made it hard on me.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] What a blessing.

Lisa Butterworth [00:09:13] Yeah, he. He has. He has. I was so lucky. Oh, he's such a good man. I really, really love him. But I, you know, that maybe that a lot of these marriages that, you know, we do get a lot of people on FMH who have these kind of mixed marriages where, you know, one of them believes and another doesn't, or one of them is very orthodox and another has a lot of questions and problems and issues and. And I feel like, you know, if we. If we maybe put off marriage a little bit, we might know who we are a little more before we get married, and it might be a little easier for us to stay married as Mormons and maybe be a little happier in our marriages. And the same. I feel the same thing with parenthood. You know, the studies show that older mothers, not older, older, older, but, you know, women who become mothers in their late 20s instead of their, you know, early, early 20s, tend to be a little more balanced and have a little more. A little more. More parenting skills and raise children that are a little. A little more healthy. And mostly because the women have already had a chance to sort of be themselves. And I was lucky in that I didn't get pregnant right away, and that was due to some health things with me. But, you know, I very well could have been a mother at 20 or 21, and I'm really glad I wasn't, because had I been going through motherhood and that faith crisis, I don't know what that would have been like, but I'm sure it would have been really bad. But, you know, I was 26 when I had my first child, and I still kind of feel like I wish there were a lot of things I wish I would have done. I wish I, you know, I wish I would have pursued some More things for myself. But I, you know, wisdom comes with age or something comes with age. Anyway, I chose to be a mother. I chose it, completely chose it, my eyes wide open. And it was a hundred million, gazillion times harder than I thought it would be. I thought, I never thought it would be easy, but it was really, really, really hard. And I look back on those times when I had, you know, four kids under the. Or three kids under the age of four, and they were really dark times for me. I was not a happy person. I was not a, well, balance. I was kind of a desperate, lonely, scared, depressed, angry person. And I tried not to put that on my kids, you know, and I, I don't feel like I did. They're really good kids, but inside I was a complete mess and I was really unhappy. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know if that's what every mother experiences or if there's, you know, if there's something I could have done to make that easier on me, maybe if I would have worked part time or had more time, more me time or. I don't know if there was some solution. But obviously I love my children, but they haven't brought me a lot of fulfillment or happiness. Most of that is all for them. They get the fulfillment and the happiness.

Guest 2 [00:12:56] So.

Lisa Butterworth [00:12:56] And, you know, there are the happy moments when, you know, they look at you and you just. Oh, you look at them and, you know, you throw yourself in front of a bus for them, you know, and you just love them so much. And there are those moments when it's really worth it. But, wow, that was. It's much easier now. I'm much happier now, now that My youngest is 5 years old. And they can all talk to me and they can all dress themselves. You know, they don't put their clothes in the hamper. But. But, you know, if they're crying, I know why. And if, you know, and, and I don't have to deal with their bodily fluids on a daily basis.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] So what. What advice would you give a young LDS mother who's dealing with the poop and the vomit and all that stuff? You know, let's say she's just in that same dark place that you were several years back. What hope or encouragement or advice would you give her to hang on and to make it through those hard times?

Lisa Butterworth [00:14:07] Well, you know, they're sort of cliched, but often cliches are true because, you know, they're cliched because they're true. But, you know, looking Back now, I realize, you know, and people always said this, it goes by faster than you think. And it does. You know, when you're in the middle of it, though, that's not always terribly comforting. When you're like, I'm gonna die, and people say, oh, it goes by faster than you think. Okay, what do I do about right now?

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Yeah.

Lisa Butterworth [00:14:36] But, yeah, it does go by faster than you think. And I look back on those pictures of my tiny little babies, and I really do feel like in some ways, I missed out on enjoying how cute they were because I was just so, so pulled down by their diapers. But I don't know how else I could have handled it, because that's just how I. How I was. And I guess also, just don't beat up on yourself, you know, just don't expect more from yourself than you can give. And don't worry if you can't be on time to everything, because it really does take hours to get out of the house when you've got to put clothes and shoes and diapers and hats and gloves and coats on three individuals that keep taking them off. As soon as you put them on, lose them. And, oh, my goodness, it's the most frustrating. You know, just be easy on yourself. And I think the other thing that would have helped me a lot, and that did help me, was really. And this is the thing that the Internet does really find friends. I didn't have friends the way I should have. I think it's easier on people that have some really close, either family or friends where they can, like, drop kids off and go to the store or, you know, swap out kids and have an afternoon off. And I didn't have that. I never had that. And I think that for the people I see that have that, you know, try and hook up with people that are, you know, that. That have kids about that same age and swap, because I think that would have helped me a lot because I made all my friends, the friends I have now, I made them all in fmh, like, all the people that I spend time with and I have, I think, along with my kids getting older. That's the other thing that made my life so much better, is once I started FMH and I started making these friends, my whole attitude about life got a thousand times better.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] You've actually gone to different cities and met with some of your readers, right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:16:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Where have you met readers in what cities?

Lisa Butterworth [00:16:39] Well, just in. In Salt Lake, mostly. I mean, I met some of the people I've met on the blogs In Seattle because I was there for a weekend. But mostly it's been like in Salt Lake or in Boise. I live in Boise, but I go to Salt Lake quite often because my mom lives there and also because, you know, I've gone down for sunstone and stuff. And we've had what we call snackers, blogger snackers, where we've just either met at a restaurant or at somebody's house and people from the blogs just come and meet us. And I've met a lot of people that way.

The Julie Beck Controversy and Blogging Personal Life

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Your earlier comments about women being easy on themselves reminded me of a small dust up that I have to ask you about. How do you, upon reflection, how did you come out of the whole Julie Beck, what women know, what mothers know, whatever that talk was called? Did you come out feeling okay about that talk, an enlightened view of it? How did you end up feeling about that whole deal?

Lisa Butterworth [00:17:49] I just think it was a poor piece of. What do they call? Was just poorly written. Poorly, poorly. The idea behind it was okay, you know what I mean? Like, which is what? Well, that motherhood is hard and that you have to work hard at it and that it's important. And, you know, there's. Here's a lot of things that, you know that help might help you become a better mother. But then the way she presented it was I felt if you're not doing this and this and this and this and this, you're a bad mother. Which I don't think that's what she meant. I think she meant have a high standard for yourself. And in some ways I agree with that. Like you need to have some. Well, it's kind of hard to say because depending on where you are emotionally at that time, survival and not killing your children may be all you can handle. You can't always live your life just barely surviving. If you can get to a place where you have a little bit more, you should strive to do a little more. You know, you can't just sit back and, you know, read romance novels all the time and eat bonbons on the couch, you know, And I think that there's a certain, there's a certain truth to that. But when, you know, when women are struggling so much and so many of them are trying so hard and then they hear you have to do this, this and this and this, you know, it's not really a good way to approach the subject, you know, saying, I know you have a lot of struggles and I know a lot of these things are hard, but still, you know, have some high Standards for yourself, because there are some people that need a poke in the butt. I'm a person that needs a poke in the butt sometimes. But. And, you know, that's what our ecclesiastical leaders are for, is to tell us, you know, here's some things you should try to live up to, but, you know, also leave a lot of room in there for, you know, for the things that people are going through. I don't know, you know, because. I don't know. I just. One of the blessings, I think, of having gone through some really dark times, I think is really lacking in being able to judge other people. Hard times, you know, like, I really have a hard time telling anybody what they should be doing, because I went through. So. So, you know, I went through such dark times that I, you know, sometimes I know that all you can do is survive, and that's what you can do. But on the other hand, I do feel like sometimes people need to, you know, try a little harder, do a little more, stretch themselves.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] That's okay, too. How do you deal with the two aspects? The narcissism that can be Blogging, just. It's all about me and what I write and what people think about what I write. And how do you deal with just the nature of sharing so many private things with everyone in the world? It's two questions, but I tend to ask compound questions.

Lisa Butterworth [00:21:08] Well, I think with the narcissism thing, I think that there's a certain type of person that blogs and there are people that sort of tend towards liking to talk about themselves, you know, like, there are a lot of people who don't like my husband, for instance, But I'm just someone who. I think I'm fascinating. But I also, you know, I think maybe this, too, is maybe an advantage of having been born in the church. I'm also. Or having been the youngest child, I'm also fairly regularly convinced that I'm. That I couldn't possibly be interesting or that what I have to say couldn't possibly be relevant or interest or important or, you know, and so. And then I also really have this egalitarian streak where I just really feel like, you know, we should all be equals and we should all, you know, like, I don't want to sit on a higher chair than someone else or have more time or feel like I did have to sort of accept after a while the fact that I'm in charge of the blog. Because at first, we tried really hard not to. Like, we tried to make it sort of a commune where everybody could Come in and say whatever they wanted and act however they wanted and we would just accept you. But we found out that, you know, people will come, people will take advantage of that and people will take over the conversations and run them in directions that we don't want and be rude and nasty and evil and troll like. And so, you know, I really sort of had to accept that. Yes, sometimes there's some people that you really have to kick out and there's sometimes, you know, but so I guess a part of me really loves talking about myself, but then I also have this other part of me that is, you know, always constantly on the lookout for not being, not putting myself forward too much, not being too, you know, full of myself. Not, you know, so it's just kind of a dichotomy in my own nature that I guess I hope I'm constantly overanalyzing my own actions. Did I do that for me or did I do it? You know, and so I hope I keep that balance that way. Just because I'm just sort of over analytical that way. I don't know. I think, I think I strike a little a pretty good balance. I've gotten more comfortable. They call me tyrant at the tyrant on the blog because I just, I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to have to explain my choices sometimes because it just takes up too much time and space on the blog and it derails the comments. And so, you know, I've just had to just sort of get to the point where I can judge those things and give people a chance if they're worthy of a chance, you know, if they show that they deserve one. Just cut people off at the neck when they don't because otherwise, otherwise they control the conversation and the tone and that's not, that's not good either. And then the second part of the

John Dehlin [00:24:12] question was, was the privacy intimate, private things? Like, I think I remember you blogged when your father passed away. Is that right?

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] I'm sure you've blogged about. And others have blogged about some pretty private things. Death and miscarriages and.

Lisa Butterworth [00:24:31] Yeah, and sex and, and you know, and faith crises. That's. I remember the first time I talked about my faith crisis on the blog. I just, I just, when I hit that like published key, I was just sick that I had like all these private thoughts that I'd really only maybe shared with my husband were suddenly like out there for the world to see. Sometimes it's really weird to meet people I've Sort of gotten used to it. But this must be what it's like to be a celebrity, to meet people that know everything about me, that, like, know how many kids I have, and they know all my family history, and they know my, like, all my personal quirks. And I don't know anything about them, right? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It is so weird because I'll be like, oh, and this and this and this. And they'll be like, I know. I read that on the blog. I'll be like, oh, that's right. You're not a stranger. You're just stranger. Yeah, it's so weird. But I have always been a very open person. Like, I've just, like, naturally, like, you want to know my deepest, darkest secrets. All right, let me tell you, you know, and so I'm just sort of born that way, I think. But then I am married to a very private man. And so that has. And I have learned, I guess, with age to some wisdom in keeping some things private because. Because not everybody respects, you know. Yeah. Your private thoughts. Most people will. Because most people, I think, are sane and nice and want to do the right thing, but there are some people that just really don't care and. Or that think that they're doing the right thing and just. I don't know. But. So I've had to be pretty careful about what I talk about about my husband. I, you know, I'm constantly weighing, would he want me to say this? Would he? You know, because he is so private. But on the other hand, I sort of feel like in some ways it doesn't apply to him because he doesn't read it and he doesn't know anybody who reads it. But there have been a few times when I've said things about people in his family, and it has gotten back to. And I've gotten trouble. But so I have had to, you know, like, kind of cut off. I have to be really careful about some things, but anything. That's just my personal baggage. I've just always really been. I've been okay with people knowing it. And I guess I figure that if people misuse it or misread it, that it's their problem, because for the most part, I get, you know, pretty positive feedback when I share personal things. You know, people say it helps them or, you know, I'm keeping it real. Yeah, I get that at church a lot. Anytime I talk at church, people always say, you just are so real. I don't know how to be any other way, I guess. But I'm just I'm just sort of born that way.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Well, it's good. Well, a lot of people appreciate it. I know. Well, why don't we close with, with your testimony and, you know, it sounds kind of cheesy. You don't have to give a traditional, you know, whatever. I was just, I'm curious if you consider yourself, you know, a one true church or if your testimony views are a little more broad than that. But I guess I just want to thank you for coming on and maybe have you leave our listeners with your perspectives in terms of spirituality and where your faith resides. I guess there are a lot of people who know the things, you know, and who have struggled with things, who have fallen out of faith or have lost their faith or have even left the church. And a lot of people might ask you, like, maybe they ask me sometimes, which is how can you stay in the church after all, you know, and after all you've seen? And so why don't you just share with us, you know, your final thoughts spiritually about the church and your faith and everything else?

Personal Faith, Future Dreams, and Final Thoughts

Lisa Butterworth [00:28:48] Well, you know, like a lot of blogger nacal or liberal Mormons, I sort of divide the church into the church and the gospel. And so I do, you know, I do have faith in some parts of the church and, you know, I don't know. And my ideas of what the gospel is are probably different than a lot of other people's as well. But as far as the church goes, there are, there are issues, you know, patriarchy and, you know, stuff and just people stuff because it's a, it's a church of the, of the world. But I feel like I, you know, I see the fruits, I guess, of the church and I see what the church has done for my family and for the people that I know that really live the gospel. And I know that it makes people happy and it, and, you know, people are just people and Mormons are just as flawed as anybody else. But I know that it is good for a lot of people. It's a really, really good place for a lot of people to be. As far as the gospel, You know, I have faith in heavenly father and mother who love me and in a brother that died for me. And I feel very strongly about those things. And like we talked before about Mormon concepts of the afterlife and Mormon concepts of family and the importance of those things, those all are very close to my heart. A lot of the things that are more peripheral, I often don't put a lot of stock in. And I don't necessarily believe or don't believe. I just sort of feel like maybe it's true. Maybe it's just part of, you know, the way the church works now. I don't know. I don't think it really matters to me terribly much at this point as far as I have very few, very few black and white beliefs about anything. I just. The world is too full of grace. Some things are obviously good and a lot of things are obviously bad, but for the most part, everything's sort of a little bit in between, including people, including myself, including everything. And so I don't think, as I have met people in the world and talked to people, I don't think that being a member of the church, being Mormon is necessarily the right thing for everybody right now. I don't think that. I don't think that accepting the gospel necessarily means that you will, you know, listen to the missionaries and be baptized and die. A Mormon who goes to church every week. I don't know what it means exactly for everyone, but I think that, you know, I believe in a God that. That truly gives everybody an opportunity to grow and to learn. Because, you know, our church is all about eternal progression, and we're not all progressing in the same, you know, on the same road at the same time, just towards the same goal. I guess the saying is there are many roads to Oz, right? And so I just, you know, I don't get too worried about what road people are on as long as they're on a road that's getting them closer to God and to being better people. And I feel like God, it's gonna work out in the end because, you know, we're all learning and growing and that's what God wants for us. And, and I really appreciate. I really appreciate the prophets and I really appreciate the Book of Mormon and the roles that they have played in my life in helping me become a better person. And, you know, I believe that God speaks to them and that's. That's what I believe.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Beautiful. What do you hope for your children? Do you have hopes for your children? Or in terms of like, if you could leave, if you could leave, let's say your children, listen to this. A couple years from now or 10 years from now or 20 years from now, what are your fondest hopes and dreams for your children?

Lisa Butterworth [00:33:59] I want them to be happy. You know, I look at their different personalities and I can really see them taking different paths. My oldest is such. She tends to be a black and white thinker. You know, she tends to want those kinds of answers. So I Could see her, you know, really clinging to the church and really being a true blue member in a way that I'm not. But then again, you know, people change and who knows what will happen? And my youngest is a little devil. I mean, I love him, but he loves to rebel and he loves being naughty. And, you know, I feel like in a certain. I have to allow that in healthy ways, you know, direct it in healthy ways. And I can see him having a much more difficult time in a sort of black and white environment of the church because he's, you know, you tell him to go up and he wants to go down, and that's not really the people who thrive in the church. But, you know, again, who knows? And then my middle daughter, she is really easygoing. You know, she's. She just likes to enjoy life and take things as they come. And I can see her just sort of, you know, being sort of mellow about whatever she chooses. And as far as them, you know, I would love to see them stay in the church and I would love to see them go on missions. And I, you know, I don't know if I'd necessarily want to see him go to byu, but if that's what they wanted and that made them happy, then I'd be happy with that, too. But I. But I also, you know, I worry about the effect that, you know, patriarchy might have on their lives. You know, like, I worry, you know, I worry about my son as well, that, you know, that it could make him entitled in some way, make him feel like he deserves to be in charge. He loves to be in charge. Oh, my goodness, that boy loves any excuse to be in charge. And, you know, I can just see him clinging to the idea that he is supposed to be in charge. And, you know, again, people change, so who knows what it'll be like. But, you know, I could see that being a corrupting influence, and that sort of breaks my heart and, you know, those sorts of things. I don't know. I don't know what they're going to choose, and I don't know how I feel about it even. I know that the pressure from my own mother is intense. It's insane. You know, I had a conversation with her the last time we were together. It was really painful. And I was saying, you know, I don't like it when you give me updates about my siblings and whether they're wearing their garments or going to church or not. You know, like, I. I don't. I don't feel like that. That's I feel like you're constantly judging whether you are righteousness, you know, because you're constantly making because. And she's like, but I just want you to be happy. I'm like, but. But you want us to be happy the way you think we'll be happy. You don't really want us to be happy for the way that we are really happy, that we might really be happy. And she's like, but I know how you'll be happy. I know the way to make you happy. I know what will make you happy. And so I guess, you know, I guess we all try and correct the mistakes that our mothers made and then make our own mistakes. But I hope I don't try and force my children into the happiness that I think that they should have, that I just kind of let them have the happiness, find the happiness that will really make them happy.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] Right. It's always a risk of parenting to overcorrect, isn't it?

Lisa Butterworth [00:38:10] Oh, my goodness. Well, and, you know, I might not make that. Make that mistake, but I'll make some other.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Yeah, well, we can't end. We can't end by having you defined by your children. So what. What dreams and hopes do you have for you post motherhood?

Lisa Butterworth [00:38:26] Oh, no. Do I really think about this?

John Dehlin [00:38:31] No, you don't. You don't have to.

Lisa Butterworth [00:38:32] Okay, let's see. What do I want? I, you know, my son is going to be in first grade next year, and I want a job. And really, when I think about it, I really, really, really want to be a writer. But I don't know, everybody really wants to be a writer. You know, everybody is writing a book. I seriously, everybody is writing a book. So it's sort of, you know, like a part of me says, yeah, but you have a really popular blog, so you sort of have one foot in the door. Plus, it kind of proves that you already can write. But, you know, I would really like to do. And here's the other thing. I think I would really be good at some sort of, like, journalism or, you know, that sort of thing. But that whole, you know, that whole industry has just collapsed. And so, you know, that's not really an option. Even people have been doing it for 20 years can't get a job. So. So sort of my aspirations for myself are really unrealistic. And so I sort of think I should get a realistic aspiration, but maybe I should just go with the unrealistic ones for a while, see if I can make them work. And then if I can't, I should Fall back onto something more realistic.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] You should totally write a book.

Lisa Butterworth [00:39:52] Yes, I would love to write books. Some sort of humor, maybe be the. Like the Erma Bombeck of Mormon women. Something.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] You gotta write the. You gotta write the Mormon mommy memoir.

Lisa Butterworth [00:40:07] Yeah, that's the one that will make people laugh and make me really rich. See, I don't want to just be, like, moderately successful. I want to be really, really successful. I don't nest. I don't want to buy a big house or a yacht or anything. I just don't want to worry about money anymore. I hate worrying about money.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Sure.

Lisa Butterworth [00:40:27] And we worry about money a lot.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] So blogging hasn't made you rich, huh?

Lisa Butterworth [00:40:31] Oh, my goodness. You know, and that's the other thing. All these liberal ideals, you know, we can't put ads on our blog. And I truly believe this because I really don't. I really, like, get kind of sickened by the idea of, like, priestcraft and profiting off of, you know, selling spirituality, you know, Like, I really would feel intensely uncomfortable with that. So, you know, I don't. I actually pay to blog because I'm so. You know, I make no money.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] You guys used to take donations. Did you stop?

Lisa Butterworth [00:41:04] No, we took donations. And what happened is we had to get a different server because we kept crashing the other server. And they. The server we're on right now is insanely expensive, but being very flaky. Remember how right at the beginning I was talking about how flaky I am? I keep forgetting that I need to search for a different server that isn't so insanely expensive. And I know they're out there, but I just, like, I pay it. It's a monthly charge, right. So I pay that month. And then I immediately forget that I should be searching for another server. And then the next month the bill comes and I pay it. And then I immediately forget that I need to be searching for another server because most servers cost, like, about $100 a month, and I'm. Or $100 a year, right. For a blog. And I'm paying about three times that. I'm paying $30 a month, which is ridiculous. So I am actually going. I'm paying a lot. And, yeah, I should probably ask for some donations, but a part of me thinks it's just because you're stupid and not following through that you're in this position, so why should you ask for people to pay for your stupidity?

John Dehlin [00:42:13] So.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:14] So if anybody listening out there wants to help me find a new server, you're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] I might be I'll talk to you after. I might be able to help you.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:23] All right.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] Well, Lisa Butterworth, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. It's an honor and a privilege to be able to have you tell your story here.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:31] Well, thank you for having me. Thank you. I've been wanting to do this forever. I feel like you do such a good job, but I just. Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] My pleasure. Thanks. And keep up the good work.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:44] You too.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] All right. Take care.

Lisa Butterworth [00:42:47] You too. Bye.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about the episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest 2 [00:43:29] Un gone down darkness be over me my rest assured yet in my dreams I'd be Nearer my Go to thee Nearer my Go to Nearer to thee. There let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou sendest me in mercy angels to beckon me Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to thee. Then with my waking thoughts bright with thy praise out of my stony grace Bethel I raised so by my woes to be Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to thee O riff on joyful wing Cleaving the sky, sun, moon and stars upward I fly still O my soul shall be Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to Thee. Sa.

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