Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Ally Christiansen
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introduction to Ally's Story
Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1633
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is July 15, 2022, and I am joined today in studio as co host, my dear beloved, sweet partner, amazing, brilliant, beautiful partner, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.
Ally Christiansen [00:00:22] Hey, babe.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:22] How are you?
John Dehlin [00:00:23] You're co hosting today. How cool is that?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:25] I know. I'm happy to be here.
John Dehlin [00:00:27] Yeah, Jen's out of town. And Margi, as many of you know, Margi's been leading kind of this Thrive series where she's exploring healing and growth after high demand religion. Many of you love that Thrive series, but we also want Margi to be able to co host from time to time in just a regular old, amazing, epic Mormon stories faith journey interview. And that's what today is going to be. Anything you want to add to that, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:54] Oh, just that I'm really, really happy to be here for today's story.
John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah. All right, well, as just kind of like an introduction preview, today we are interviewing Ali Kristiansen. Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:01:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:01:10] Hey, Ali.
Ally Christiansen [00:01:10] Hey.
John Dehlin [00:01:11] Welcome.
Ally Christiansen [00:01:11] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:01:12] And just to give a tiny bit of background, as we were nearing kind of the March, April time frame of this year in 2022, there were a lot of people emailing or messaging me about kind of the issue of being a BYU student and losing your faith while being a BYU student, but not being able to talk about it publicly out of fear of some sort of repercussion. Particularly, BYU has been known in the past to kind of like, hold up someone's graduation, even expel them from the university if they talk about their loss of faith in a way that really can negatively impact their ability to graduate and to graduate on time, sometimes setting them back two years worth of, like, study and financially. So it's a real serious problem that at byu, if you lose your faith in Catholicism and join Mormonism as a BYU student, you're fine. But if you're believing Mormon while a BYU student and then you lose your faith, you can literally be expelled and kicked out. It's a real problem. But we also really believe in covering all topics that are really germane and important in the Mormon experience. And the BYU experience is a really important Mormon experience. And in fact, it's one of the reasons I'm super glad Margi's here, because Margi and I met at byu. Right, sweetie?
Margi Dehlin [00:02:36] We sure did.
John Dehlin [00:02:37] Yeah. So we're both BYU alums and we had faith challenges while at byu. So we know a little bit about this issue, right?
Margi Dehlin [00:02:47] Yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:02:48] So, Ali's Ali's story is going to be epic for a lot of reasons, but we're definitely going to be covering the issue of losing your faith while at byu. Ali, you graduated from BYU just a couple months ago, is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:03:02] Well, that was my plan, was to graduate a couple months ago. So it would have been spring of 2022, but it ended up not happening. And I ended up actually, I graduated a year ago.
John Dehlin [00:03:15] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:03:15] So I kind of had to guess. We'll get into that later.
John Dehlin [00:03:18] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:03:19] Cut things short. And so I, I, I sort of am a recent graduate, but not actually.
John Dehlin [00:03:25] Okay. When was the last time you attended BYU?
Ally Christiansen [00:03:28] The last time I attended. Well, I graduated April 2021.
John Dehlin [00:03:34] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:03:34] But I have been on campus recently.
John Dehlin [00:03:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So this is all still really relatively recent in your life.
Ally Christiansen [00:03:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:43] But there are a lot of really other cool, important, valuable themes that we're going to be exploring today. We're going to be exploring, you know, of course, a little bit of Ali's pioneer ancestry, some trauma that happened in Ali's family, particularly relating to her grandparents, her grandfather, and a little bit of a content warning that we're going to be talking about death, life and death. A little bit in this episode, we're going to be talking about growing up in rural Utah, in this case Delta. Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:04:18] Well, I actually grew up in Leamington.
John Dehlin [00:04:20] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:04:20] But most people don't know where that is, so.
John Dehlin [00:04:23] But, but growing up as a, as a member of the LDS Church in rural Utah, right? Yeah. But then also serving a mission, relatively recent mission as an LDS woman. And then, yeah, being at byu. One of the things that's interesting about Ali as well is that Ali is a singer. She's moving away soon to go to graduate school as a performer, but she's sang with BYU's. What's the choir?
Ally Christiansen [00:04:51] BYU Singers.
John Dehlin [00:04:52] BYU Singers, which is the most elite choir. She sung with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. She sung at LDS General Conference. She's even performed solos at BYU assemblies where all the students were there. So kind of a professional opera level singer, performer. And we're going to be covering kind of what that was like both for you as a believer, but then also how that became complicated as you were questioning your faith a little bit. Right, we'll be talking about that.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:22] Yeah, definitely.
John Dehlin [00:05:23] Yeah. And then there is a theme of asexuality that we'll be covering kind of once we get to the kind of courtship, marriage part of Ali's story, which is always an important thing when people feel like, it's an important part of their identity to be covering any other major themes that we want to give people a preview about before we jump in.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:46] I guess also I'll want to talk about, like, perfectionism and mental health.
John Dehlin [00:05:50] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:51] As well.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] Beautiful.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:05:53] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:53] That's probably everyone's Mormon story.
John Dehlin [00:05:55] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:05:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:05:57] It's commonly mine. Coming for sure. Beautiful. Okay, well, should we. Should we dig in? Should we jump in? Margaret, anything else you want to say at the beginning before we start?
Margi Dehlin [00:06:06] I don't think so.
Ally Christiansen [00:06:06] Oh, I guess can I give, like, a reasons why I want to do this interview?
John Dehlin [00:06:11] Perfect. Let's start with your intention.
Ally Christiansen [00:06:13] So. Yeah, my intention, first of all, is like, I. I don't intend to hurt anyone or offend anyone, and I'm going to be as kind as I can. I would also like to be honest with how I feel now and how I've kind of felt throughout my life. I think that's really important. Yeah. And I'll try to be careful about, like, names that I say. You know, I don't want to get anyone in trouble. But, yeah, that. That's. That's about it.
John Dehlin [00:06:44] Yeah. Like, a lot of times, if you just tell your story, family members or friends are going to just claim that you're trying to take away people's faith or that you're trying to destroy the church. And I. I think. Tell me if I'm wrong. What I'm hearing you saying is that's not. That's not what you're about here.
Ally Christiansen [00:07:05] Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Thank you for that. That's helpful. I. What I want to do is I want to help kind of the Utah slash, just church culture in general be more aware of ways that it is unintentionally, I think, hurting people. And then also, I really think BYU has a lot that's going really well, but I think they also have a lot of policies and kind of cultural things, too, that hurt a lot of people. And I think if there could be some changes made there, a lot of people would be so much better off. Like, even the most devout believing students and faculty, I think, would be way better off, too.
John Dehlin [00:07:53] Yeah. Because, like, not only many BYU students more and more by 2022 are having to deal with a loss of faith while being a BYU student. It significantly impacts their mental and even physical health and their relationships. But also BYU faculty and staff. We know that there are many, many, many BYU faculty and staff that are dealing with all this. And there has to be a more humane way for the Mormon Church to Allow people to have a waxing and a waning or even a, a conversion to the Mormon faith or a complete elimination of the Mormon faith without it jeopardizing your, your academic career, your occupational career, your financial situation. There's gotta be a better way.
Ally Christiansen [00:08:42] Yeah, it's just you can't get the support you need if you can't talk about your feelings. Right. So if we could just make it safe for people to share their inner lives without being afraid of losing everything, I think that would be a really great first step. So.
John Dehlin [00:08:59] Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, let's jump in then. Ali, thanks for being willing to come because I know it's nerve wracking at best, but it can also impact relationships. And so we just, we honor that and we acknowledge it and we really appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable and to tell your story. So where does your Mormon story begin?
Family History and Roots
Ally Christiansen [00:09:24] So I wanted to start before I come around with a little bit of my family history, because I think I came from the people before me. And there are a couple people that I specifically wanted to mention first on my dad's side. So my dad is Finlandson. Finlandson is my maiden name. And the first, like Finlandson on that side to kind of join the church was George Finlanson. He was in England in like 1830s, kind of, and when the missionaries came over then he was married to his wife and they had one child. And this is, this is the story as it was told to me growing up. So maybe, maybe it's a little bit wrong. Maybe I'm not remembering everything right, but this is like kind of what was part of, like, my understanding of myself as, like, as a, as a young Mormon child. So he, he believed, you know, he kind of like was converted, but his wife was not, and they couldn't reconcile it. So he just left his little family in England and moved to Utah and started over. So from the very beginning, like, the faith was so important. It's like you have to give up everything. And that's kind of the. That's like the one of the examples I had in my family.
John Dehlin [00:10:54] So faith over family is kind of how your Mormon pioneer ancestry begins.
Ally Christiansen [00:10:59] Yeah, yeah. And then another kind of, I think relevant story too is the first LDS bishop was Edward Partridge. Some people may already know that he was my great, great, great grandfather. So he was baptized by Parley Pratt in New York. And then it turns out that three of Edward Partridge's daughters were polygamist wives to an apostle early in the church. And they all kind of were in the Towns around Leamington area where I grew up. So everyone there is, like, my cousins, because we all just have this built in, like, polygamy family. And so I kind of already knew about polygamy all growing up, and, like, I thought it was kind of weird, like, nowadays, but it was. It was never a surprise for me to learn about it because it was, like, part of my family history. Part of your story from the part of my story.
John Dehlin [00:12:05] And can you tell people where that generally is? In Utah, that town,
Ally Christiansen [00:12:11] Leamington. So it's like central western kind of Utah.
John Dehlin [00:12:16] So near Delta?
Ally Christiansen [00:12:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:18] How far away from Delta?
Ally Christiansen [00:12:19] Like, 20 miles away.
John Dehlin [00:12:20] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:12:20] Yeah. It's a town of 300 people, and there's a church in the town and houses and not much else. Okay. Everyone there just, you know, you hang out at church on Sunday.
John Dehlin [00:12:31] Is it a farming town?
Ally Christiansen [00:12:32] Yeah, there's. You live there either as, like, there's. There's like, a cement plant that some people work at or people are farmers or they're like. They work at the coal power plant in Delta.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:48] Is it dairy? Is dairy a common?
Ally Christiansen [00:12:51] There's a lot of dairies in Delta. There aren't any in Leamington. Mostly like alfalfa corn in Leamington. So those. Those smells are really. I really like smelling alfalfa. Reminds me of home.
John Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:05] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:13:06] Beautiful. All right, so where. Where do you want to go next?
Ally Christiansen [00:13:09] Yeah, so then next, I kind of wanted to talk about a little bit about my mom's family, and I. I would like to kind of respect her privacy. So I won't go, like, too much into this, but I'll just say her. Her mom was not. Her mom, I think also had pioneer ancestry, but herself was kind of inactive. And she married a man who wasn't lds, and they had a pretty troubled marriage. My mom had kind of a hard life growing up
John Dehlin [00:13:46] in Leamington, or.
Ally Christiansen [00:13:47] No, this was in New Mexico.
John Dehlin [00:13:48] New Mexico.
Ally Christiansen [00:13:49] Yeah. So my mom was always kind of looking for something to bring peace and structure into her life, actually, when. When she. So she didn't go to church very much, but she was kind of befriended by the young woman leaders in her area. When she was, like, 14, she started going, and she. She's told me at one point, the BYU Young Ambassadors toured her. Her high school. I always. I still, like, feel emotional telling this because it feels really powerful. And they sang Let There Be Peace on Earth. And I remember, like, hearing her tell the story when I was little, thinking how special was that she could feel like the spirit Testifying to her in that moment. Was. That was a really powerful experience for her. So she ended up getting baptized, and, you know, none of her other siblings ever joined the church, but she was always really, really faithful. So she worked really hard and was able to go to byu. Married my dad there, and my dad, you know, has this kind of strong pioneer ancestry, too. So she's always been, I would think, kind of the rock of faith in my family. Yeah. And there's Al already, like, you know, a little bit of BYU's music kind of playing a role in my life before I'm even there.
John Dehlin [00:15:35] Beautiful.
Ally Christiansen [00:15:36] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:36] And the power of music, it sounds like, too, right?
Ally Christiansen [00:15:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:42] Was your mom a singer?
Ally Christiansen [00:15:44] No. No. She. She always liked, you know, doing music and things, but she never had the opportunity. Yeah. And so then my, you know, my parents were at byu and then, you know, got their degrees done, started having kids, got a house in California, and then my. I actually have never really been told the whole story because I think it's just too painful for my mom to talk about. But her father killed her mother, and so.
John Dehlin [00:16:25] So your grandfather killed your grandmother.
Ally Christiansen [00:16:27] Yeah. And it was, you know, that was obviously a really hard thing for my mom. And she still doesn't really talk about it. I think, like, that that's kind of given her the, Like, the sense of how important it is to have the gospel and, like, to have family strength and safety. So she was always very careful about, you know, making sure we were all safe and loved and, you know, because. Because of this, like, kind of background, she's always been a very faithful, devoted woman. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:35] Heartbreaking.
Ally Christiansen [00:17:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:17:37] I'm so sorry.
Ally Christiansen [00:17:38] Thank you. So, yeah, I guess I'll kind of start with myself now. So I was, like, born in California, but we moved to Utah when I was, like, five. So I pretty much have grown up in Utah my whole life. There were a few. Let's see. I wanted to talk a little bit about some. Some stuff about Primary.
John Dehlin [00:18:04] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:18:06] So I remember, like, enjoying Primary and really taking it seriously. I think I was kind of
John Dehlin [00:18:20] more
Ally Christiansen [00:18:21] spiritually, like, careful and inclined than probably most kids were at that age. I know you like to talk about, like, what were your favorite songs? And I wanted to talk a little bit about that. So, like, I remember the song. If you chance to see a frown do not let it stay Turn that frown right upside down and smile that frown away so that song is, like, really ingrained into my psyche. It was kind of. Kind of one of the first lessons where I learned, like, oh, it's important to be happy for other people. Like, for me to be like a good, good little sunbeam and like a good little Mormon girl. It's my job to be happy and not be a burden on others. Because if I'm, like, frowning, that's like, I'm what Jesus wants. So I. I kind of started internalizing then. Like, it's important to be happy and not ever sad or mad. Another one.
John Dehlin [00:19:19] Instead of, like, if you chance to meet a frown, embrace your sadness and feel it.
Ally Christiansen [00:19:24] That wasn't definitely. No. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:19:27] Process it. Talk to a mental health professional.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:31] Don't know that song. No, not familiar.
Ally Christiansen [00:19:35] And then another one that kind of, like, comes to mind is, I'm a child of God. I really like singing that one, you know, because it was so pretty. But as I've. I kind of, like, have realized, like, it says, teach me all that I must do to live with him someday. And I also really was aware of, like, how conditional that was. Like, I need to. I need to learn well and, like, do everything right now so that I, like, it all does work out in the end. So I was really serious about, like, always making sure I was doing the right thing.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] Such a good point.
Ally Christiansen [00:20:18] Yeah. And. And then I. One, like, kind of Sunday school lesson I remember from primary as well was learning about Jesus and how he was perfect and how when we made mistakes, you know, he had to suffer for that. And. And by then I had kind of learned, you know, besides just, like, hitting your siblings or like, cheating on a test. To me, it felt like even if I was sad, that was a sin or, you know, if I got to read my scriptures, you know, that was a sin. And I kind of took it on myself to think, well, I'll just not make mistakes. I'll just be like Jesus now and then. I won't. I won't hurt him, but I won't disappoint him.
John Dehlin [00:21:28] So that's.
Ally Christiansen [00:21:30] That's the kind of kid I was. I was very careful, and. I didn't want to hurt anyone, and I was doing the best that I could, but, you know, I did feel bad whenever I did slip up.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah. This idea of, you know, having someone else hurt, you know, suffer for us
Ally Christiansen [00:22:10] being human, it's a lot for a child to. To deal with. It's a big responsibility.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:22:23] Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people relate to that.
Ally Christiansen [00:22:24] Yeah.
Growing Up as the Fourth Child
John Dehlin [00:22:25] Thanks for sharing.
Ally Christiansen [00:22:27] So, let's see. I also wanted to talk about a little bit about my family dynamics too, then. So my. My dad's mother Was. Was a pianist, and she taught kind of everyone in the town how to play. So I was really excited to turn 8, partly because I got to get baptized, but also because that's when I got to start taking piano lessons. And all my, you know, my older siblings were playing, and I was super jealous of them because it was so cool. So I was. That was. That was. I was really excited when I got to start learning, and when I did start music lessons, it was hard, but it was fun. And I also. In my. In my family, I kind of had the role as there was. There's like, a little saying in my family. I'm not really sure where it came from, but, like, that the fourth kid is, like, the perfect, easy child, because my dad was the fourth in his family, and my mom was the fourth in her family, and they were both kind of just like, easygoing, like, kind of did well. I remember hearing my grandma tell that to me, and my parents would tell that to me, like, oh, you're just like, the easy one who just, like, does things right. So that was really important to me, too, that I had kind of that role to live up to. And it felt really good
John Dehlin [00:23:51] to be the easy child. And you were the fourth?
Ally Christiansen [00:23:55] Yeah, I was the fourth.
John Dehlin [00:23:56] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:57] Yeah, you were the fourth out of how many?
Ally Christiansen [00:23:59] Out of six?
Margi Dehlin [00:24:00] Out of six. Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:24:02] So we were all. We were pretty spread out. The oldest, it's like 16 years apart from the youngest. So I got, you know, I got my turn of being the youngest before, like, four years later, I got a little brother, and then I was. I got a turn. Turned kind of be the older sister, too, but definitely got a lot of the younger sister. Kind of super girly, getting all the dolls and stuff. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:24:31] Well,
John Dehlin [00:24:35] it's a lot of expectations, a lot of pressure.
Ally Christiansen [00:24:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:24:39] To keep your emotions in check, to not cause anyone sadness and to kind of be as perfect as you can be from a very young age.
Ally Christiansen [00:24:47] Yeah. And I really thought that was realistic. Like, I thought I. It seemed like people around me were doing it, and it felt like I was doing pretty good doing it. Yeah, It's.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:01] It's interesting when we talk about the roles we play in our family systems and the terms that are used. You know, this idea of being an easy child, or it's so based on a parent's experience. What's easy for a parent, as opposed to a child being able to just sort of be. Be a child. But really, don't you think it, you know, this idea of easy really translates into, like, I Have no needs.
Ally Christiansen [00:25:33] Yeah. Yeah. I was very good at not asking for a lot of help and kind of proactively looking out for people around me who needed help, because that's what Jesus did, was always looking for a way to be helpful. You know, I really liked general conference talks that talked about that. It helped me feel like I was doing the right thing and on my way. You know, when I. When I was finally old enough to leave primary and go to young women's, I was really excited because I was so sick of primary and feeling like, you know, I was pretty over it. I think a lot of people can relate to my first. So when I was a beehive, which is when you're 12 to, like, 13, for those, I guess, who are not familiar, I was never in the class presidency, and I kind of noticed, like, the people who are. They seem like they get more attention. They seem a little bit more righteous. And I was kind of jealous, and I felt like it was important for me to make sure it happened after that. And sure enough, I learned kind of like what ways you need to act, how you need to be involved and volunteer to help with things, be super involved at girls camp, et cetera. And I was able to land the my maid and laurel presidency spots. But kind of I was figuring out, like, this is the. The Mormon hierarchy, if you will. This is what you need to do. This is who you need to be to be successful.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:21] Yeah. The game plan.
Ally Christiansen [00:27:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:25] Conform, comply, obey, serve.
Ally Christiansen [00:27:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:29] Mold yourself to what you perceive the church wants out of a young girl.
Ally Christiansen [00:27:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:27:39] And so it's less about developing your own authentic identity and more about becoming who you think the Church wants you to become.
Ally Christiansen [00:27:47] For sure. You know, like the. You know, the hymn I'll be what you want me to be. It's like, it's never, like, about what am I interested in? What do I want to do with my life? Because it's so easy to make a mistake, it's much safer to figure out, what does God want? What do people around me, what are they saying? And how do I just kind of glean information from that and do it myself? Yeah. So I guess I was really good at kind of mimicking being kind of a chameleon in my. Both in my life goals as well as my interactions with other people.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:28] Can I ask you a question about that? Like, at this point in time, how is that feeling for you to do that? Is it feeling like a lot of effort? Is it feeling like a lot of pressure? Is it feeling like you're getting positively reinforced, and it actually feels good. Like, what's your experience at this point in life?
John Dehlin [00:28:49] In the chronology.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:50] In the chronology. That's right. So kind of young women's age, as you're starting to figure it out, and then you're landing the presidency positions in your.
Ally Christiansen [00:29:01] I think I. Honestly, I. I thought it felt really good. I maybe was a little lonely, but I don't think I really recognized that or kind of accepted it. And I really, like, I. It was hard for me to feel within myself that I was, like, worthy. And this way I could kind of have, like, if I tick off all these boxes, like, I know that I'm loved and I can, like, feel God's love, but if I'm not doing something, like, I felt less than. Yeah. So it was really working for me. It was really. I really was quite committed. And I guess, like, even. Even then I was very, like, sure. In my testimony, I. I never had a time where I didn't really like some people when they're young. They're like, I need to, like, read the Book of Mormon and get the feeling. But, like, I kind of had that all the time. Felt like, except for when I. When I was sad or whatever, and I was like, oh, no, I need to hurry and do something to get the spirit back. Which usually a way to serve was good. Or like, listening to nice music or reading the scriptures, you know, all the primary answers. I was really good at those.
John Dehlin [00:30:24] So anytime you experience positive emotion, it was often reinforcement from the church of you conforming to the identity they wanted you to conform to.
Ally Christiansen [00:30:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:30:37] And if any point you were sad, the way to fix the sadness was to just hustle more by serving the church and doing what the church wanted.
Ally Christiansen [00:30:47] Yeah. I'm pretty sure. I think it was Elder Bednar. Right. Who said, like, the way to if. To know if a good feeling is from God is if it's a good feeling, it's from God. Right. I think that he. I. I don't think he gave that talk till I was in high school. But that mindset really resonated with me. It's like, anything good is from God. Any. Any good idea that I have, do it because it's from God. And if anything, if there's, like, if I feel sad or upset, that's like Satan, and I, like, don't want that in my life. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:24] Yeah. And if. And if your emotions are all functioning the way that they, quote, should, that's maybe okay. But. But it. I guess I can. Our year grimacing A little bit.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:39] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a.
Ally Christiansen [00:31:45] It.
Margi Dehlin [00:31:46] It. There are just many levels of ways that we are conditioned. Right. To when we disconnect from ourselves and we kind of self betray and meaning we give of ourselves to get the love we want, which we all do.
John Dehlin [00:32:05] Mm.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:06] Right. It's just there are many ways that we are conditioned to do that. Um, and so in that way, even when it's working, is it really working? Right.
Ally Christiansen [00:32:18] Yeah, Yeah, I guess I can say I did have sort of one outlet, which was journaling, because, you know, they talked a lot about how important it was to journal, to leave a record for your ancestors, for your ancestors posterity. So when I was like eight, I was already getting pretty good at writing in my journal every day. And, you know, sometimes I would say, like, oh, I feel a little bit sad about this. I did try to write every day, like a spiritual experience because I wanted my journal to be like, a really positive thing for my family to read, you know, later on when I was dead or whatever. But I did have a bit of that outlet, which I think was really helpful. Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:01] Like a private self, a little bit. Like a place where you could kind of.
Ally Christiansen [00:33:05] Yeah, yeah. I guess also kind of that age. When I was 11, I started going to ward choir with my dad. The rule in our family was you had to do it when you were 12. But I thought, well, I might as well go now because it's cool. All the. All the cool. I just wanted as many opportunities as I could, really, to be involved with music. So. And I wasn't in high school yet. My older sisters were doing the musicals and having a blast, and I was not able to do that. So at least I could be ward choir. And all the people there really liked having a young person who could sing high without running out of. Running out of steam. So that was really fun. And a lot of those songs are really burned into my brain forever. I'll never forget them.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] Yeah, I love performing in word choir as a. As a youth and as a young adult, that brought me just a lot of positive joy and positive emotion and fulfillment.
Ally Christiansen [00:34:07] Yeah.
Church Participation, Singing, and Patriarchal Blessing
Margi Dehlin [00:34:08] And so was singing in your family part of your kind of family culture too? It sounds like this idea of, like, everyone participates when you turn 12, that. That is like a. You know, is that true? And is that. Did you always love singing? Is that something you remember even as a child, or was it something that kind of.
Ally Christiansen [00:34:29] Yeah, I. As a kid, like, I really like going to primary and getting to do the singing. Stuff that was probably my favorite part of primary and I was always advocating for like good music and girl girls camp and young woman's. My family, we're all kind of more private, not external, internal people. What's the word for that?
John Dehlin [00:34:57] Intrinsic versus extrinsic?
Ally Christiansen [00:34:59] No.
John Dehlin [00:34:59] Or introvert.
Ally Christiansen [00:35:00] Introvert. There you go, introvert. We're all a little bit more introverted, so we don't like just like sit around and sing all the time. You know, we do have a bit of a tradition of sometimes like sitting at the piano and singing like Beatles songs together.
John Dehlin [00:35:17] That's the right band. If you're gonna sing a band, that's the right one.
Ally Christiansen [00:35:20] Yeah, I. I know how to sing some Beatles songs because of that. Although probably not the right style. Yeah, I think mostly my. My parents knew that it was helpful like later on in the church, your church career, if you had a lot of musical training. So they wanted us all to have that and they want us to have the option to pursue it later on. But if you don't do it when you're young, it's kind of like harder to get in. So I think it was. They just really wanted us to have the opportunity. And they both enjoy music as well. Yeah. So yeah, kind of going with the music. When I was about, still about that age, I was looking forward to getting my patriarchal blessing. Do I need to explain what that is?
John Dehlin [00:36:09] Yeah, I think we have a lot of never Mormons who listen. Yeah. Just a brief explanation of what that meant to you.
Ally Christiansen [00:36:16] Yeah, maybe so when I. So a patriarchal blessing is there is usually a old retired gentleman in. In your area who his calling is to be the stake patriarch and he will basically everyone, everyone can go meet with him and get laying on of hands a special blessing directly from God. About the way I kind of saw it was like you read scriptures about other people's lives, but a patriarchal blessing is like God giving you your own scriptures for what to do in your own life. And they talk a lot about it when you're a youth about how you need this roadmap to help you know, what to do with your life. And I really, we've kind of talked about. I really like having people tell me what to do. And I was kind of unsure of what I should be doing with my life as I was getting a little bit older. So I was really excited to get my patriarchal blessing. And when I did, I can. It was like really. It felt in the moment I remember it felt like super peaceful. I remember feeling a Lot of love. I remember I cried, I think like the whole time. I cry a lot. And it felt like very individual and specific for me. And one highlight in there is it did talk about how I should keep pursuing music. And I kind of felt like that was my go ahead from Heavenly Father to be like, I guess even though maybe normally it wouldn't be smart to pursue music, at least that's kind of how I felt like it's not likely to be a good career since God told me I could do it. Then I went ahead and like kept pursuing music. So that, that, that was a really formative moment for me. Also, also at this age, my oldest sister had gotten into BYU and she was singing in the BYU choirs and I went to the first concert that I had been to before. I went to many, many, many more as my older siblings went through BYU and as I went. But I remembered sitting in the Deong Concert hall at BYU campus. I think we were up on the kind of the loft part, the second story, and hearing the students sing and it was so beautiful and I felt almost transported. It felt heavenly. It felt like kind of the closest I had ever felt to God. And I remember thinking, if I can do anything in my life, It would be so special to do this. So that kind of became a goal for me was, you know, besides that my parents had gone to BYU and kind of the expectation that we were going to go there. I wanted for myself to go there and be able to be part of that music and have that experience with myself, but also share that with other people and help them feel so close to God too.
John Dehlin [00:40:00] And when you, when you receive that patriarchal blessing, it's almost as if God, I mean from the mindset of a believing Mormon, it's almost as if God is blessing your career as a musician.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:10] Right.
John Dehlin [00:40:11] Like your, your destiny or his will is that you bless people's lives through music for the goodness of the gospel. Is that fair?
Ally Christiansen [00:40:22] Yeah. So I had, I had 100% faith that it would work out because, you know, that was my calling. I was, I was supposed to do that.
John Dehlin [00:40:32] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:40:33] And maybe it doesn't happen for everyone, but I thought might happen for me.
John Dehlin [00:40:36] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:40:40] Then I guess before I get into like high school, one more thing. My parents both had kind of co occurring illnesses at the same time that were pretty serious. My mom was a pregnancy that was really hard. And then my dad had sort of like a infection that got bad and turned into a heart thing and he ended up having to have surgery while my mom Was, you know, down for a pregnancy. That was really hard. And at the time, I didn't recognize it. Now I can kind of see, like, I wasn't getting enough support because my parents couldn't do it. And I didn't know that I needed help, but I did. So I started acting out a little bit socially and again, for privacy. Like, I won't really go into it because it's not really my story to tell, but there was an incident that happened that I felt like anytime before when I had made a mistake, it was like, well, it was. I still okay, but this time it felt like, oh, I really messed up. And I can kind of see that as a point in my life where I really doubled down and thought, I need to. I can't be selfish. I need to just look out for other people and take care of them and be the best that I can. Because even I could slip up and I like, I'm not good enough yet. I need to try harder. So that's kind of like me going into high school was with that mindset of, I need to be really dedicated. I need to be there for people around me. I need to be as holy as I can.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:33] Kind of double down. Hyper vigilant.
Ally Christiansen [00:42:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:42:39] Because you can cause others or heavenly father sadness. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:42:45] Yeah. So high school, I kind of look back on it and I just. I almost don't even know how I, like, how I survived because I was so busy. And at the time it felt like really cool. Like, I felt very proud of my busyness. I felt like pretty hot stuff. Besides the fact that I also felt kind of terrible about myself, you know, that kind of weird. Like, I feel like I'm a really good example, but also I'm like, kind of terrible. So, like, I need to be really extra hard working. So I just.
John Dehlin [00:43:28] Delta High School. Is it Leamington High School or Delta High School?
Ally Christiansen [00:43:31] Yeah, Leamington did not have a school. We had to bus.
John Dehlin [00:43:33] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:43:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:43:35] Delta High. Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:43:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:43:38] Still a small high school relative. Do you know, like, 1A, 2.
Ally Christiansen [00:43:41] My graduating class was, I think, 330 people. Okay, so we were a 2A. Okay. Yeah. Or maybe I think we were 3A. But we were the smallest 3A school. And we were 3A because our. The sports there were super, super, like, sports are the most important thing about Delta High School. Not, I would think so much. The education. Maybe it's gotten better since I left. I would hope so. So they had to have our school be 3A because we were too tough for the 2A schools, but yeah. So some examples of how I kind of now think it's a little bit insane, but at the time it felt like pretty. Pretty good. I took the act there 13 times while I was in high school because I knew I just needed to get a high enough score that I would get a scholarship into BYU because that's where I needed to go. So when I was a freshman, I took it and I just took it once or twice a year and then kind of took it more and more often as I got closer to graduating. And I just took it until I got the score I needed and then I could stop. Yeah.
High School Years and Self-Worth
John Dehlin [00:44:54] I've never heard him taking it that many times personally.
Ally Christiansen [00:44:57] Yeah, I have never.
John Dehlin [00:45:03] I mean, five or six times would have been perceived as a lot.
Ally Christiansen [00:45:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also. I don't know if you know what Sterling Scholar is.
John Dehlin [00:45:14] Yeah. One of our. Not to flex. One of our daughters was a Sterling Scholar.
Ally Christiansen [00:45:18] Yeah. So I don't. I guess if you're not like, in Utah. I don't think this is like a normal thing. There's kind of a competition for high schoolers who are graduating seniors. And they have different categories of, like, areas that you can be good at Things and my science, science, music, chemistry or chemistry, math.
John Dehlin [00:45:41] Yeah. Art, social studies.
Ally Christiansen [00:45:44] Yeah. And all my older siblings did it, but my second oldest sister was the General Sterling Scholar. And that's the most prestigious one because that means you're good at everything. And they kind of all learned how to do all these extracurricular activities so that you have a really good portfolio for the end of the year when you're judged against all the other school representatives. So I knew going into high school I wanted to be the General Sterling Scholar. And I also wanted to be the valedictorian. Just because I also didn't want to not ever get straight A's of your high school.
John Dehlin [00:46:24] Right.
Ally Christiansen [00:46:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I wouldn't really know how to cope with that. Making mistakes. So I went and I made a list of all the things that I did. I know it's not complete, but it's hard for me to remember all the things I was involved in. So let me just share a little bit of how much I was doing in high school. So I was. I was in band, which was kind of a big commitment itself. Because if you're in band, you were in concert band. And then you were in marching band, which did games, like football games and then basketball games. And then we also. We had a new band teacher, which was super fun. He was fresh from his grad school, and so we started getting really big into competitions. So we had, like, summer marching band, just marching band all year. And then we had concert band all year, which was a class pet band. And then I would also occasionally solo with the orchestra, as. Because I played the oboe and they sometimes need an oboist. And I did jazz band and played the piano with them my last year. Then I was also in a local clogging dance team, which was super fun. I love clogging. I did a little bit of byu. Never on the team, though, but I loved it. If you don't know, know what clogging is. It's kind of like tap dancing, but you, like, are stomping and jumping around more. So it's like a really good cardio. I did the musicals every fall and plus one. In one time. They did this spring musical instead of a spring play, which was super cool. So I did those two. And those were always, like, before or after school rehearsals.
John Dehlin [00:48:05] Were you ever lead or just supporting or.
Ally Christiansen [00:48:08] I was a lead. My senior year. I was Zeitl in Fiddler.
Margi Dehlin [00:48:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:14] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:48:15] Yep. It was fun. Yeah. I love high school musicals. Everyone should do them if you get the chance because it's so fun. Then I did private voice and piano lessons. And at that point I was starting to think, like, I'm going to be studying. I hadn't decided then that I was going to sing. I was kind of trying to decide do I want to sing, do I want to do oboe, or do I want to do piano. And my second oldest sister was at BYU doing a double major in piano performance and math. So I started taking lessons from her BYU professor, Piano Essence. And then I was also starting to take voice lessons with, you know, people up in, like, Salt Lake, Springville, which is a bit of a drive, but not as many opportunities in Delta. And so I would do the competitions for that solo ensemble every spring. I was. There was a woman in our ward who taught art lessons because she had an art degree. So I would do that every Wednesday after school, kind of hang out with kids. I was also kind of in charge of a little bit babysitting the group there. But it was really fun. I really loved having time to do, like, crafty things. I started some 4H clubs for kids doing various things. Even at one point it was. I was like, teaching Lego robotics, which I didn't really know anything about. I don't really know how that happened, but I ended up doing that. I got involved with American Legion, of course I was doing all of the church activities. There was mutual. Every week I was on the math team, so I do those competitions. I was on the chemistry team, although we never really, I don't think we ever got our teacher organized enough for us to compete. And I worked at an after school care center for kids and I did cross country and track and I was also in the student government when I was a senior. So anyway, I kept myself busy trying
John Dehlin [00:50:32] to be the every girl, basically.
Ally Christiansen [00:50:33] Yeah. Well, because I knew if I wanted to win the general Sterling scholar thing, I needed to have a lot of stuff in my portfolio. So that's kind of what it was for. Was just all for her resume and a lot of the things. When I graduated, I realized I kind of felt a little empty inside. Like a lot of my friends had a lot of, you know, romantic experiences or had spent a lot of time, more time hanging out with our peers. And I didn't do that as much. And I felt like I'd missed out. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:09] So kind of high, high achievement.
Ally Christiansen [00:51:11] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:51:12] And a little less time for connecting in relationships during that time.
Ally Christiansen [00:51:17] Yeah. So when I graduated, that was one thing that I realized I kind of wanted to try doing different was
John Dehlin [00:51:26] a
Ally Christiansen [00:51:26] little more time for people.
John Dehlin [00:51:29] Yeah, yeah, I relate to that. I mean, I, I know, well, I know Margi, Margi, you were a state level cross country and track runner and grades were important to you. So I, I, I'm guessing you can relate to some of this. And then me, yeah, I, I was going for the equivalent in Texas. And so it was like on every committee and doing all the things. So because of that, plus seminary for me, it was early morning seminary. I'm wondering, did you feel a lot of pressure, anxiety? Was it healthy? Was it actually good for you because you were just accomplishing a lot and feeling good about your accomplishments. How, how did all that impact your mental health?
Ally Christiansen [00:52:09] I was kind of unaware at the time how like worn out I was getting. I was, I mean, I know there are some people who, you know, like, don't even sleep at all. In high school. I did get some sleep, but I, you know, definitely I could fall asleep, I could take a nap anywhere. I was always tired and I was always really stressed. I would think at the time I probably would have, if I had been, I could have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder at the time. Yeah. But I didn't. There was no room in my idea of who I was supposed to be for not being okay. So I was just like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm Great. But I was pretty. Getting pretty worn down.
John Dehlin [00:53:06] Do you think you got a sense that your worth was tied to your performance?
Ally Christiansen [00:53:10] For sure, yeah. If I ever, like, let's see, there are probably a few times where I had like, a close call, like, maybe not scoring high enough on a test that maybe, like, it was possible my grade would not be an A. And those were always, like, really panicky. And I would get as much extra credit done as possible because it was like, too dangerous to conceive of myself, like, not doing well. Yeah, there was also. So I was. I really liked seminary. In fact, one of the seminary teachers was my second cousin. Because, you know, everyone there is. Because you were all. We're all related. It was so fun. Everyone's your cousins.
John Dehlin [00:54:01] This would have been release time seminary, where they integrated Mormon LDS Church religious instruction into your high school schedule.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:11] So you would, like, leave campus, walk across the street or whatever to the seminary building and learn about the Book of Mormon as like, third period.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:20] Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:54:20] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:21] Which is a weird distortion merging of church and state within Utah and Idaho and Arizona, some of these really highly Mormon populated areas. It still blows my mind that this is allowed, but that's. That was your experience.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:34] Yeah, it was. And I was always as involved as I could be in seminary. I would. I got to the point, you know, they would give us a little, like, notebook to take notes in. And I usually had to, like, staple two or three together to fit all my notes for the whole year because I. I like to take tons of notes and always like, you know, have the. Be the scripture mastery chase winner, which is like, if they ask you what scripture it is, you like, find it as fast as you can raise your hand. Yeah, it was a. It was a really good system of getting a lot of external validation, which is what felt good at the time. But there was one thing with seminary. So when I was a senior or like, I guess the end of my junior year when I had decided I was going to run for student government, it was kind of close. And I almost didn't make it, in fact, but I ended up making it in, which felt kind of unreal. I hadn't really expected to get in because I wasn't like a popular kid per se, but I guess I. I don't know, I made it in somehow and. And then one of the seminary teachers pulled me aside. I'm pretty sure it was the guy who was my cousin, so we were a little bit closer. The brother, I guess I should say. He told Me that he would have put me as a seminary president. But since I was going to be in student government, I would be too busy and I wouldn't be able to do it. And I remember feeling, like, pretty crushed. I was like, oh, no. Did I put worldly success before, like, the most important thing, which is, like, serving God? And I remember feeling really conflicted about that. But at that point, you know, I didn't want to back out of my role in student government. Like, it had already happened. But my cousin. My cousin, we were both kind of similar in our overachievementness. Different cousin. She was in my same grade. She ended up being in the seminary presidency. And I remember feeling like. I'm not sure if jealous was the right thing, but I felt very conscious of maybe she was more righteous than I was at that point. I felt sensitive about that.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:59] Yeah. So that was a time, it sounds like, where. Let's just say, the outcome wasn't it, like, you. You weren't able to optimize. Right. It feels like you were able to kind of control a lot through your high school, through effort, just like through hustle.
Ally Christiansen [00:57:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:20] Right. And this was a time, and it sounds like you didn't know about it, like, when. When you went for the student body government or whatever, that type of. You didn't actually know that that was going to jeopardize the. That was a decision that was made after. Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:57:38] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:39] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:57:39] If I'm remembering correctly, I might have dramatized it in my.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:43] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:57:44] Memory.
Family Faith Culture and Dad's Faith Crisis
Margi Dehlin [00:57:45] But so other than that, I'm curious, you know, was there any other time in high school that you felt a sense of loss or you were not able to optimize to get the results you wanted through your sort of work ethic, commitment, this type of kind of always hustling. Was there any other time or for the most part, was your experience? Like, I can control my experience through my level of effort. If I try hard enough, if I work hard enough. Right. I can be optimal. I can get.
Ally Christiansen [00:58:24] There's. There's a couple things I can think of. So one was just actually kind of my experience with, like, the choral and musical part of high school. So, you know, there's always, like, people making a big stink about not getting the lead when they feel like they should. That was kind of my experience, too. I, you know, starting in high school. As I. As I progressed through high school, I started to feel a little more serious about singing, and I was realizing, like, I don't really love to sit at the piano and Practice for five hours. And I haven't had enough, like, professional. I never got professional oboe lessons, so I. It didn't seem like it was going to be a very easy option to just, like, graduate and go right into music doing oboe. So I was starting to think, like, maybe I'll sing. Maybe I'll want to see if I can sing at BYU as my major. But the choral program was not very big, so kind of my only opportunities were with the musicals. But it was, you know, Mormon, Utah, everybody is a singer. And I also, for all that, I was very good at doing lots of things. I was not very enigmatic or, like, lively. And I wasn't very comfortable actually, like, performing still. And there were other students who were more naturally gifted at that. So I kind of felt like even though I'm, like, taking this time to take these lessons and, like, practicing all the time, it never really felt like the singing really worked out. So I was kind of in the back of my mind thinking, well, maybe it'll be different. I'll just go to BYU and everything will work out. But there is a small part of me that thought, well, maybe it's just me. Like, maybe I'm not good enough.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:28] Okay. So actually, the singing part was a little more uncertain.
Ally Christiansen [01:00:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:34] During your time in high school.
Ally Christiansen [01:00:35] Yeah. And then actually, the Sterling scholar thing is kind of the best example of hustling, not doing it for me, because I ended up in the competition. I did not win. I was a runner up. And I was so surprised because I felt like I had done an impossible amount of things for years, and I had even done things that I really hated doing that were so exhausting because I felt like I had to so I could win this thing. And then when it didn't happen, it was honestly devastating and so confusing
Margi Dehlin [01:01:21] to
Ally Christiansen [01:01:21] realize, like, you can do everything you can, and it might not be good enough.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That totally makes sense. Do you remember the process of that? Was there a lot of grief and a lot of kind of reckoning around that and the time you spent, or were you kind of off to the next things? Right. Because that's the thing about doing and hustling.
Ally Christiansen [01:01:48] Yeah. I definitely didn't even really let myself acknowledge, even in the moment, that I was disappointed. I was. You know, I can remember being on the stage and hearing my name called as a runner up and being like, you know, it's just shock in my whole body, and then, you know, like, put on a smile, go up, shake someone's hand, and go sit down and Then kind of just like sitting in like the weird, that weirdness after finding out. But I just from that moment on just kind of pretended it was okay. And I didn't know that you were supposed to feel your feelings at that point.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:27] Yep.
Ally Christiansen [01:02:28] Yeah. Also I was like a junior when they did the mission age change. So my graduating class was the first group of like the high school boys. They were the first ones to graduate and just go right on their missions. And I remember that that was super exciting. All of my friends were going, had a really strong in the gospel group of friends. You know, we were good at kind of doing lots of all the, all the dances. We'd like go on group dates together. So when I was graduating, you know, everyone was going on missions and I had just like, I had just found out that like, chasing after worldly, like worldly pleasures or whatever was like all for naught. So I realized like, okay, well, I made it into byu. Yeah, I made it to byu. So I was like, I need to change my priorities. I need to put spiritual things first and I need to put people first. That was, I guess how I, how I dealt with that. It's like, oh, this was just not for me and this was maybe bad to put so much into that and I need to try something else.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:51] Yes, that makes, that makes total sense, that type of framing moving forward.
Ally Christiansen [01:03:58] Yeah. So now we're getting to byu.
John Dehlin [01:04:04] Yeah, let's do. But, but overall, did you have a sense of accomplishment? Like it was a successful. Because like I'm always torn to see the good and the bad of my Mormon upbringing because I, I see a lot of good in it. And then I obviously I meet a lot of people that experience a lot of harm. And sometimes Margi is like, John, I don't think you realize the ways that it could have harmed you. But like I'm, I'm seeing an observe. I'm imagining an observer watching. This is like, oh, well, Ali, you were, you were singing, you were performing, you were, you learned a musical instrument, you got great grades, you had the time of your life. You're, you're performing lead in the musicals and, and now you're getting into a Division 1, top notch university. Like sounds like a pretty good deal overall, right?
Ally Christiansen [01:04:57] I mean that is how it felt. It felt, it felt amazing. But it, I think I, and I think, you know, I did get a lot of general, like, good experiences. I was, you know, through my high school and middle school experience, able to get into byu, which is harder and harder every year for, for Students in Utah because so many people want to go. So I was really grateful for that. You know, you hear a lot of stories of people who do so much and they want so badly to, like, get into byu, and they don't, and it's just completely devastating. So I felt really lucky and grateful. But at the same time, I felt like I had let Heavenly Father down. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:05:49] By.
Ally Christiansen [01:05:56] I. I didn't have a way to
Margi Dehlin [01:05:57] understand
Ally Christiansen [01:06:00] my failure other than that I had done something wrong or that it wasn't supposed to happen. So, you know, maybe I had not had enough. I hadn't prioritized church enough. All. Although I don't know how I could have possibly prioritized it more. I was super careful about at least ticking off all the boxes of the things we were supposed to do. You know, reading scriptures and going to church and participating in everything. So either, like, I had sinned and it was a punishment that I hadn't done it, or it just wasn't supposed to be, and I was supposed to be doing something else, in which case I probably should have been doing the other thing the whole time, you know, And I guess there's also probably a little bit of internalized misogyny there. I think as a woman, when you try to achieve and it doesn't work out, it's. It's easy to think, oh, I was just stepping out of my place.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:13] You were wanting too much or
John Dehlin [01:07:18] too ambitious.
Ally Christiansen [01:07:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:07:21] So maybe Heavenly Father put you in your place for wanting too much.
Ally Christiansen [01:07:25] Well, I don't think I thought that, like, as an actual thought, but it kind of felt that way. More, I guess. Not that I was put in my place, but that my. Maybe my spiritual sight was redirected so I could see. Oh, I. I tried to, like, have it all, and it was. It didn't work out. And it was so draining and overwhelming. It was like, oh, I learned my lesson and I'm going to byu, so I can just, like, really drill the gospel.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:06] Yeah. It's like, shift away from that sort of sterling scholar type mindset. And now it's like, all things spiritual. What about my spiritual self and my. Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [01:08:18] Yeah, actually, I had. From. From the beginning of my BYU experience, I thought, I'm gonna allow myself to, like, I'm gonna accept that I'm probably not gonna have straight A's here, for example. Cause I knew for one thing, BYU is very different from Delta High School. But I also thought it's not the most important thing anymore. Like, I made it here and now I need to start being, you know, the woman of faith that I was meant to be.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:51] I have a couple questions for you. Is that okay before we move on to byu?
Ally Christiansen [01:08:55] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:55] Okay, really quickly, I was curious. You had mentioned a little bit about your relationships in high school. Did you date and did you. Was it mostly like group dances or what did your social life look like?
Ally Christiansen [01:09:10] Yeah, cool question. Thanks for asking. Well, I, you know, I was so busy with all this stuff and I didn't live like in town with everyone, so it was even just hard to like have time to meet with people. And if we did meet up, it was like a 20 hour drive. And like teenagers don't have money for gas, you know, like just trying to. Just trying to make it through high school. Right. So I was pretty good. I was mostly I relied on my friends for, like, organizing stuff and, and I think a lot of my socializing came from like, hanging out at band practice, like, freezing together in the morning when our fingers are falling off, or marching sets on the football field, or hanging out during play practice waiting for it to be our turn to go on stage. Most of my socializing came from all the activities I was in. And then I was also kind of, I think, like my kind of. My girlfriends in middle school, they kind of did the job of reaching out to different guys and bringing in, you know, like their crushes or whatever. Excuse me. And so we kind of ended up having a nice little like, group of. Group of teenagers that we were all friends with. And I was never really, I never really got into the drama of like, single dating. I also was very strict about like, following the law of chastity and being super modest. And I knew you were not supposed to date anyone until you were like at least 16, but I was like, I should just wait till I'm at BYU because I need to focus on school and, you know, do what I need to do. So I never really dated anyone in high school, but we would, you know, once you're 16, you're old enough to, for the, for church rules, start going on dates and group dates and going to dances. So usually, you know, every couple months there's another dance in high school and I'd go with my friends and we'd usually have a group date at someone's house and like, eat dinner that we cooked or their parents cooked and do some silly games and then like go to the dance and have some good, wholesome Mormon dancing. Woot woot. Yeah. And then I was kind of the, like the friend who other friends would Come to talk to me about their drama, and I'd be like, wow, that. That really sucks. I'm sorry you have to go through that. Like, also a little bit, like, not quite clicking. Like, I wonder why this doesn't happen to me. But, like, whatever. I don't have time to deal with it anyway.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:56] Yeah, right. That makes sense. That's great.
John Dehlin [01:12:00] Did you follow that weird Utah rule that you can never go to a. With the same boy to two or more dances or dates?
Ally Christiansen [01:12:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:12:10] You want to talk about that? Because that's just a weird question.
Ally Christiansen [01:12:12] Well, so it's just. It can't be two in a row. So, you know, like, when your best friend is, like, kind of dating this guy, but if you. If you go on two dates in a row with someone, it means you're like, steady dating. Right. Or you're just dating is what we would have said. But, like, my parents generation would call it maybe steady dating. And you. And you weren't really supposed to do that, especially because in a year or two, like, the guys were supposed to be able to be detached enough to go on their mission. And if you. If you're too close. Sometimes people don't go on their mission because they just want to get married. So we're all, like, very primed and educated that we don't want to do that. So we kind of just would have a system of like, okay, well, they're dating right now, so he's going to ask her out to go, and they'll kind of go. And we'll all just kind of as a group, like, sort through so that everyone is following the rules. Yeah. And it felt. I don't know, it felt pretty normal. Maybe it sounds weird to other people, but that was just life.
John Dehlin [01:13:24] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:25] Yeah. And then one last question was just around a little bit of your family culture, if you don't mind. So the idea. I feel like I have a really good sense for your drive and your kind of internal, let's just say, determination toward perfection right within yourself. I was just curious what your family culture was like. And also, you know, how your parents related to you around achievement. Mm. And excellence.
Ally Christiansen [01:14:06] Yeah, that's a good question. So the first thing that comes to mind is. Well, my parents, they both really valued, like, education and logic. So while, like, church was important, they both had, like, my dad had an engineering master's degree and undergrad from byu, and my mom did chemistry as her undergrad and master's degree. And before she had too many children, she used to teach at a community College chemistry. So it was kind of expected to have feet in both things, you know, like have your kind of musical, spiritual side, but also like be educated, be intelligent, be rational. And my parents also, it was really important for my dad that we were able to kind of take care of ourselves. His, his parents grew up in the Great Depression and they never, they had like kind of money struggles because they were, you know, poor rural Utah family. So when he went to byu it was really important for him to like get a degree that would earn well. Right. So he became an engineer. And that really suits his personality too. I think. He really loves his job. And so there was. And then my mom did that too. She didn't end up having to fall back on her degree because everything worked out, but she still would talk, she still. You could talk to her about chemistry right now if you want to. Although I don't remember enough to have a good conversation about it anymore. So that's kind of happening. Also my dad, every year would have personal like maybe like a personal priesthood interview, you could call it, or like an interview with your dad. He would, and he had a journal notebook where he would keep track of our goals. And every year before school we'd go through and say like, okay, these were all my goals last year. And then we'd tell him like, okay, these are all my goals this year. So I would like with my dad write out, you know, this year. So I'm preparing for all of these things that I want to do and when I'm a senior, when I'm at byu. So I need to make sure I take these classes, get A's in all these things. And I like we would set goals with like education, health, social, spiritual, mental. Yeah. So yeah, there was kind of, it was kind of.
Margi Dehlin [01:17:08] Yeah, you had it on a lot of levels, right? A lot of structural support for kind of achievement, excellence, would you say?
Ally Christiansen [01:17:17] Sounds like yes. Although I actually should have talked about this sooner, so I'm glad I'm talking about it now. There was also a dynamic of kind of a little bit of discord spiritually in my family because my dad, early in my parents marriage had a bit of a faith crisis and I didn't really, you know, when I was growing up I never asked him about it because it felt like pretty bad and taboo. But I knew he didn't go to the temple and I knew he didn't pay tithing, which like really ate away at me to know that about my dad. And I remember when I was, you know, middle school, high School. One time he was driving me home from something and he had some sort of podcast on that was talking anti Mormon lies about Joseph Smith. And I don't. I'm not sure if he just, like, didn't realize I was, like, there listening or if he was trying to, like, give me some sort of exposure, maybe give me an opportunity to say something, but I. I just felt so betrayed and so upset. And that is one of the times that I can remember, like, feeling furious when I was growing up. I was so. I don't think I've ever told him this. I haven't told him about this yet. I was so mad that he would jeopardize his family like, that he would. I was like, well, it's one thing to like, make maybe have a hard time believing, but, like, to actively hurt your faith is, like, unacceptable. So, you know, like, my family, we would always pray before dinner, but we didn't always do family home evening. We didn't really do family scripture study. So I kind of did all that just by myself. And my dad, he would give us priesthood blessings at the beginning of the school year. But I don't know, there was just a bit of a disconnect there. And we didn't really talk about it because it's not something you talk about. And I could tell my mom felt a little bit lonely in her faith. You know, when she would go with all of my dad's siblings and their spouses to family temple trips, she would just go by herself. And I thought, like, that was really hard for her. And I knew I needed to marry someone who was as awesome as my dad, but also, like, would stay strong because I saw how hard that was for my mom. Yeah. And how hard it was for me.
John Dehlin [01:20:10] Do you have a sense for what podcast do you know now what podcast he was listening to at the time?
Ally Christiansen [01:20:14] I don't think he listens to this podcast.
John Dehlin [01:20:18] I was just curious.
Ally Christiansen [01:20:19] So I don't know. I don't know what it was.
John Dehlin [01:20:21] You've never asked him what he might have been listening to at the time?
Ally Christiansen [01:20:25] I think I did one time ask him, but he wasn't sure. He did also have, like, the sometimes ex Mormon Reddit was up on the family desktop computer in the kitchen, and I was, you know, I would kind of give it the evil eye and, like, close it if I could. And then there were also, like, Mormon Sunstone journals. Always around, but I never touched them.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:57] Yeah, you never even touched them.
John Dehlin [01:21:00] That would have made you unclean.
Ally Christiansen [01:21:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:03] So what year was your dad experiencing this faith crisis. Approximately.
Ally Christiansen [01:21:09] They got married in like 85, I think. So it would have been around like 85 to 87, kind of. And I don't, I mean, he's, he's still like pretty happily attends church and
John Dehlin [01:21:28] still like to this day.
Ally Christiansen [01:21:30] Yeah, to this day. Even if my mom, if my mom's not there, he like will go by himself. It's like a very. I think his whole family is still really engaged and it's like the only community really in our little town. So I think he's come to a sort of peace with his membership. But when I was growing up, it was not enough for me. I was a little bit.
John Dehlin [01:22:02] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:02] Sore about that.
John Dehlin [01:22:04] So his faith crisis would have started around the time you were born, you're saying?
Ally Christiansen [01:22:08] It was before I was born.
John Dehlin [01:22:09] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:22:10] But you would have seen traces of it.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:14] You were. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:22:15] Into your high school years.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:16] Yeah, as I was, I mean, as I was growing up, you know, there were just little, little things like, like I said that would show up or, you know, kind of like he would read a magazine during sacrament meetings sometimes or, you know.
John Dehlin [01:22:33] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:33] Not as engaged as I was.
John Dehlin [01:22:36] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:22:36] Not diligently taking notes.
John Dehlin [01:22:39] And do you ever remember through high school saying, hey, dad, your faith doesn't seem as same as moms or as strong as it should be. What's going on there?
Ally Christiansen [01:22:48] Never talked about it.
John Dehlin [01:22:50] What do you think that was?
Ally Christiansen [01:22:58] Probably. That's like a very scary thing to talk about. I think I knew at some level, like, if there's something my dad knows that like shook his faith, like, I don't want to know it.
John Dehlin [01:23:16] You didn't want to know.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:17] I don't want to know.
John Dehlin [01:23:18] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:18] You know, because you, you hear about apostates, you hear about people who've left and you think like they say, even the very elect shall be deceived and I gotta protect myself. So, like, it's just too scary to know.
John Dehlin [01:23:34] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:37] Yeah. That's how I felt.
John Dehlin [01:23:38] It's very. Sounds very Mormon to me.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:41] Very self protective.
John Dehlin [01:23:42] Yeah. And probably a bit lonely for your dad to not be on the same page.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:23:49] With his wife, with the community, but also to not be able to be authentic with his own kids about what he was going through.
Ally Christiansen [01:23:57] When I think back about, you know, I'm a little bit older now, I can kind of think about what his experience must have been like. I, I can imagine he was terrified to talk to us because, I mean, the way that we were raised, like, what if we said I, like I don't Want to know? It's one thing to never have someone ask you, but to try to have a conversation and to be shut off would be so painful. Right. And I think he didn't want to like, you know, upset my mom or upset his family by messing up his kids faith. Right. So. And there are, it seems like there are a lot more resources like nowadays on like what to do in that kind of mixed faith sort of marriage situation. But at the time, you know, I think he just, he didn't know what else to do, so he just didn't say anything. Although actually one of my siblings has told me when our family still lived in Ridgecrest in California, he did one Sunday take them to some other churches and say like, you know, you could try other places and you could kind of think about what you believe. So. So I think he, he did make that effort once, but for whatever reason it was not consistent.
John Dehlin [01:25:37] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:25:41] So byu.
John Dehlin [01:25:42] Yeah. Any other questions, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [01:25:44] No, thanks for that.
John Dehlin [01:25:46] And I just was gonna ask, when you said you felt like you had failed, was it because you didn't get Sterling Scholar or was it something else? 2.
Ally Christiansen [01:25:57] I think not getting Sterling Scholar felt like a pretty big obvious wound type thing, you know, a very big disappointment, but also just kind of the hollow feeling I had inside when I was graduating. Like I kind of remember like I, I was like, you know, big graduation ceremony, like sitting at the front, like giving my address because I got to, because I was one of the valedictorians, talking about like success or goals or something. I don't know, I don't know what I talked about, but I remember feeling like just kind of a sense of dread inside. Like I did everything that I wanted to do and like maybe some things didn't work out, but I mean, here I am like this was my dream and it feels so empty. It felt, it just felt off. And yeah, that. I guess that kind of sense of failure was a little bit deeper than just this Sterling Scholar thing.
John Dehlin [01:27:19] Yeah. So you hear about and, and kind of suicidal ideation and even death by suicide is more and more common these days. And everybody's trying to figure it out in and outside of Mormonism. Not a uniquely Mormon thing, it's kind of a us thing and maybe in some ways a global thing. But you hear about kids that were marginalized or like lonely or experienced trauma and you hear about that sort of suicidal ideation. But then you hear, and Margi, you've highlighted some of these stories to me about a Stanford runner or a University of Michigan star Athlete, valedictorian, that dies by suicide. And you think, wait a minute, it's one thing for, like, people that are struggling in life and marginalized, but, like, why would a. Why would a star athlete, star student, star performer ever get to the point where they would ever feel that way? Because you would think they would be on top of the world. And so I don't know if you have. I would love to hear if you have any reflections on that, but what I'm hearing is that you felt you had gotten used to feeling good whenever you performed. And so what I'm hearing is that you, if you felt good, it was almost like a sign that Heavenly Father was pleased from you. So when you got to the end of your high school experience, you were waiting for those positive feelings to come to make you feel endorsed by Heavenly Fathers having done a good job. And then when those feelings didn't come, you. You had only to sort of say, I must have not done it right. Yeah, he must have not been pleased with me, or I would be feeling better. Which is the risk of tying positive and negative emotions to Heavenly Father, which. We started with that. Because we started with that. And it's like, what's wrong with that? Well, it's wrong. If your feelings don't behave like you think they should, then it doesn't just mean you're having a bad day or your emotions. Maybe you're depressed, maybe you have anxiety, maybe there's some clinical diagnosis here, or maybe you're just. Your feelings don't always match what happens in life, which is all of us. But if you encode that as Heavenly Father's disapproval.
Mental Health Struggles and Suicidal Ideation
Ally Christiansen [01:29:46] Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think, I think a lot of us Utah Mormons type people have very terrible emotional hygiene. So, like, I think it could have very easily happened where I had all of these experiences and it was a net positive, you know, But I think just because culturally, like within my extended family culture and. But mostly really just like kind of Utah, we don't really know, like, what to do with feelings besides kind of numb them out and, like, busy out. And anytime that gets that method of management gets kind of messed up, you're left with all of the repressed feelings that you have not, like, kind of done anything with. And you. It feels like a terrible, terrible mistake.
John Dehlin [01:30:53] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:30:53] What are you. It's. It's one thing to, like, be sad because you're not doing what you're supposed to do, but if you're not happy and you've done everything, you're supposed to do to be happy. Like what do you do with that?
Margi Dehlin [01:31:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:09] And so from before, it sounds like you just decided to double down spiritually.
Ally Christiansen [01:31:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:15] And commit to the gospel, the plan of happiness, the LDS church's plan, and purge your life of any non spiritual desires. I don't want to put that. Those words in your mouth, but that's what I think I heard you say.
Ally Christiansen [01:31:32] Yeah, well, and I knew like I still needed to like go to school and stuff, but I realized that shouldn't be my first priority anymore, you know?
John Dehlin [01:31:41] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:31:43] So actually one, one good example of this with deciding where to go to school. I mean it wasn't really a decision. Right. I was going to byu, but I did actually I did apply to several other schools in Utah just in case, you know, and I auditioned for UVU's opera program and I got in and I could have gone as a freshman with a separate just singing scholarship and byu. I got into this school, but I did not get into the major that I wanted. I didn't get into the music program, but I didn't even. It wasn't even a choice. Like I knew I wanted to sing, but I was like, I have to go to byu. So I turned down UVU and I just went to byu and I thought, I'll just try again, I guess or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:46] Okay.
Preparing for BYU and Mission Experiences
Ally Christiansen [01:32:47] And I guess actually one, before I get into my BYU experience, one last thing. My older siblings were at byu and in my senior year of high school, I found out that they had both lost their faith. And it was so scary because BYU is supposed to be where you go to be safe. Right. Like it's supposed to be the Lord's university and like nothing bad happens there. And we, they talked about it with me a little bit, but I didn't really want to hear, you know, so I heard kind of all the scary stuff that happened with them. Almost like getting kicked out of school and you know, getting in a really bad mental health kind of place because of their experiences. But kind of what I took away from that was I just, I need to be really careful even while I'm at BYU for that to not happen to me. Because that's just not an option.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:55] Right?
Ally Christiansen [01:33:56] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:56] Yeah. Isn't that interesting, the translation being a little bit like, okay, so it happened to my dad because you know, these things can happen even. And then you, when it happens to siblings, then it's like, okay, next layer. It also can happen at byu. So now we're going to be really, really happens in general Happened to my dad. We're going to be really careful. Okay. Now it's happening to my siblings and at byu. So now we're going to be even more careful. It's just really. Yep. Our framing and our psychological armor.
Ally Christiansen [01:34:32] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:32] To keep us safe from.
Ally Christiansen [01:34:34] When I went to byu, I had a lot of like rules kind of that I set for myself. You know, I went to the temple every week to do baptisms and I made sure every semester I was in a religious class. You couldn't really do institute in on campus housing, which I was really mad about because I was like I should be going to institute. And I always went to devote the BYU devotionals. Every Tuesday I would leave and go to the go watch that. And although I didn't make it into the performance program, I did make it into women's course. So I got a lot of like spiritual nourishment, musical nourishment from those experiences. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:35:25] Really quickly. What, what year did you enter BYU?
Ally Christiansen [01:35:28] 2013.
John Dehlin [01:35:31] Okay. That fall, so about nine years ago. And that's when your, your two older siblings would have lost their faith. Around that time. Okay. That just helps me kind of put it into a timeline.
Ally Christiansen [01:35:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:35:43] 2013.
Ally Christiansen [01:35:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:35:45] Right around the time the gospel topics essays were about to come out. Yeah, right around the time that the CS letter was about to come out. And then right around the time the church started ramping up its excommunications out of fear.
Ally Christiansen [01:36:00] I actually, when I was in my home ward, they told us about the gospel topics essays and I went home and looked them up and I was like, okay, now I know it was like not a big deal at all for me to read them, which is not, I think everyone's experience. But I was just like, okay, like this is stuff I didn't know. Now I know it. So we're good.
John Dehlin [01:36:22] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:36:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:25] All right.
Ally Christiansen [01:36:27] So BYU my freshman year, I did better at like having friends and hanging out with my roommates, which was a lot of fun. I wasn't really sure what I was doing school wise because I was not in the major that I thought I was going to be in yet. So I was kind of thinking like, maybe I'll just audition again next year. But I was also like thinking maybe I'll like be a math major like my sister because they were actually both still at BYU at the time. So I was like sort of taking math classes and just like generals. And then I was in choir and I think I was in a dance class too, just for fun. And it was just like a Year of kind of, like, settling into, like, not being with my parents. I think there was a little bit of bouts of, like, anxiety that I didn't really know what they were, and I was just like, whatever, it's fine. And I love, love, loved choir. It was the most amazing thing I still can, like, like, my first semester of the choir. Songs that we sang, you know, they're all, like, nice women's choir arrangements of hymns and things. I think I still have most of them memorized because they. They were, like, the first ones I did, and they were all so cool. And I was trying to figure out what I was, like, doing with my life, and I was starting to think, well, I'll just go on a mission. Because I didn't really feel like I was ready to get married. Dating was kind of scary. Boys are scary. Anytime while I was at that freshman year, a guy started to show interest in me. Especially if they were an rm, I, like, freaked out.
John Dehlin [01:38:18] And an RM for those who aren't
Ally Christiansen [01:38:20] Mormon means a returned missionary, which at byu, if you are a returned missionary man, it means you're looking for a wife. So, you know, any. Any. There was, you know, several students, female students in my ward, who dated RMs that year and, like, got married. So you, like, kind of be careful about that if you don't. If you don't want that to happen to you.
John Dehlin [01:38:44] Were you in the dorms?
Ally Christiansen [01:38:46] Heritage.
John Dehlin [01:38:47] Heritage, yeah. So you made your own food?
Ally Christiansen [01:38:49] Yeah. Yeah. I really liked cooking, so I didn't want to live in Helaman.
John Dehlin [01:38:54] Yeah. And there would have been RM's returned missionaries in your ward at Heritage?
Ally Christiansen [01:39:00] A few, yeah. But mostly. Well, there are a few. It was, like, right when all the guys had gone off to missions. So it was, like two years of guys were kind of gone. So our ward was a little bit, like, smaller. And there were, like, some RMs and some who are, like, about to go on missions. So the focus at that point was definitely more like, everyone going on missions. If there were special meetings, it was about missions and, like, training for a mission, not so much about, like, marriage yet.
John Dehlin [01:39:31] And for those who don't know the history for, I don't know, 50, 80 years in the LDS Church, men were encouraged to go on missions when they were 19. So you. So if you were a man Prior to 2013, you would usually try and go to a BYU school for a year after high school, and then after your freshman year, you would turn in your mission papers and go on a mission. That's what I Did. Went on a mission when I was 19. But girl women weren't allowed to go on missions until they're 21. So usually they would do two to, you know, three years of BYU, and then when they're almost a senior, if they hadn't gotten married yet, then they would consider the possibility of going on a mission around. During Monson. Thomas S. Monson's later tenure, he. Right. Had a revelation that the mission age was going to be lower. What we know now is, is that the church was running out of that mission. The number of people willing to serve missions was in decline, and that the church was starting to see a decline in overall baptisms. And so by. By lowering the mission, the church was. It was a couple of things. The church was not getting the number of young men serving missions that they wanted. And the church realized that it was losing too many young men and sometimes young women between their high school graduation, and once they went to college, they would maybe become secular or lose their faith and never serve missions at all. So by lowering the mission age to 18 for young men and to 19 for young women. And the second thing was, instead of making missions kind of, like, super optional for young women, basically communicating that pretty much all young women should go on missions if they're able, the church was able to kind of, like, double what was becoming of a weakened missionary force. So immediately, the number of missionaries went from like, 40 or 50,000 globally to like, 80 or 90,000 globally. And it caused this real stir within Mormon culture for at least a few years. And it was kind of exciting. I don't know.
Ally Christiansen [01:41:50] It was so exciting.
John Dehlin [01:41:51] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:41:51] It felt like. I don't know, we were. You know, we had all. We'd all been taught. We were the righteous generation. And here we were, like, ready years before other people to, like, go on missions and, like, save the world and, like, bring the gospel, you know, to everyone.
John Dehlin [01:42:10] Yeah. Yeah. So. So during your freshman year, you started thinking, maybe I'm gonna go.
Ally Christiansen [01:42:16] Yeah. And I actually had a Book of Mormon professor who was like, this really cool brother. And when I got back from my mission, I actually tried to, like, look him up and, like, talk to him and say how influential he'd been, but he must have retired or something, because I could never find him. But it was kind of on accident that I went into the wrong class. I was supposed to be with a different teacher, but the first day with this professor was so powerful. I was like, I'm meant to be in this class. So I got permission from BYU to switch classes. And he ended up, like, being really. It felt like, at the time, a really positive support for my spirituality and figuring out what I wanted to do. And at one point, I went into class just feeling really, like, overwhelmed, trying to figure out what to do. And after class, he said, I normally don't do this, but would you like a priesthood blessing? And I was just like, yes, I would love a priesthood blessing. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So we went to his office, and he gave me a blessing that felt just as special as, like, patriarchal blessing. Almost talked about my unborn children, and he talked about my mission and lots of really cool things. And so then I felt like, yeah, okay, this is the right thing for me to do. So I told my parents I wanted to go, and they said, yeah, we'll help you pay for it. You know, just whatever you have money for will kind of COVID the rest. So I put in my papers, was off.
John Dehlin [01:44:04] And that's. That's a really complicated part of Mormonism. Whether it's your patriarchal blessing or, like, a father's blessing or a priesthood blessing. The way it's set up in Mormonism, just for those who haven't thought about this or don't know about it, is that somehow men have, through the priesthood, have some sort of privileged access to God that women don't have. So instead of you feeling like, well, I can just talk to God and know what God wants for me and have the confidence that if I'm feeling good about a mission, God will tell me, and if I don't hear from God, then I won't go. You've got a patriarchal blessing that's telling you how your life is gonna play out. That's given to you by a man who has the church's best interests in mind when he's giving you the blessing. And it's always gonna be like, get married, the temple, have lots of babies, because that's what the church wants for women generally. Right. You almost never hear about a blessing that's like, don't get married, be a lesbian, and never have kids. You know what I mean? That patriot blessings never happened. Right? Ever?
Ally Christiansen [01:45:04] No.
John Dehlin [01:45:04] Right. But. But I'm. You know, you're at BYU trying to figure out what to do, and some man says, let me give you a blessing. And then he's telling you what he's. He's telling you to do what the
Ally Christiansen [01:45:16] church, everything about my life. He even told me. He even told me what my husband's patriarchal blessing said about me. So that was like. And I actually was, like, able to remember pretty much word for word, everything he said. And I went and wrote it down. And then I was like, now I know who I'm supposed to marry when I'm dating them. I just need to figure out what their patriarchal blessing says. And then if it says this, that means I'm supposed to marry them.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] Wow.
Ally Christiansen [01:45:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:41] Margi, you're making a little bit of wow. Your eyes are getting big. Why?
Margi Dehlin [01:45:44] My eyes were like, that's me. Magic.
John Dehlin [01:45:49] Well, it's a form of influence. Some might call it undo influence, but, like, it's putting you in your place. It's kind of disempowering or invalidating your ability to know what Heavenly Father wants from you. And it's. It's putting a man up there as the. The one to tell you what God wants for you. And it. At the time, it probably felt amazing. How did it feel?
Ally Christiansen [01:46:15] It felt. I mean, it was another time where I just, like, kind of sobbed and just felt like I was seen by God. You know, when I had this. I had this question of, like, what am I supposed to do? Should I go on a mission? Is that not for me? Because I know it was encouraged, but they would say, you got to figure out for yourself. It wasn't like the guys, they had it easy. They just go, I didn't want to mess up God's plan for me. And I felt so confused. It was impossible for me to, like, have clear feelings about what I wanted. So it felt like, okay, well, this is what God says. And so now I, like, know what to do. And I. It felt so comforting.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:01] Yeah, and that's really interesting also with respect to anxiety, because this idea of the feeling, the discomfort of the unknown and uncertainty, I think that can be very intense. Those feelings can be incredibly intense. And I think, you know, we seek relief oftentimes in those moments, in whatever form, you're seeking kind of closure. And so there's that layer, too, of just sort of like, whew, I was in certainty. But okay, now it's known I've got the answer and I can go. And I think that can be deeply, deeply problematic as, you know, coming to think about life working that way as opposed to actually what to expect is in life. It is actually part of being human to oftentimes not know, to feel confused and to have a process, a whole process around that.
Ally Christiansen [01:48:07] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:08] But that's kind of denied in these moments of, like, quick answer, someone else tells you what to do. Someone else. So there's that layer of anxiety that I really see too, that I think is really an interesting layering and also sort of a deeply problematic expectation communicated as to how life works.
Ally Christiansen [01:48:37] Yeah. And especially, you know, by this point I was kind of figuring out, okay, so when I don't know what to do, I just need to get a blessing and then I'll know what to do. That's like on my mission, if I jump a little bit ahead, I would
John Dehlin [01:48:52] get just, just to, just to kind of like hit that really finally it's you. We talked at the beginning that you're not growing up as a Mormon girl. Like, what's important to me? What do I love? It's like, how do I perform? How do I make other people not sad? How do I act in a way that, how do I force myself to be happy, to perform in a way that shows my love for the Lord through my accomplishments and that never makes. It allows for any mistake that would make anyone sad. None of that's about self identity, self development. It's just about performance and conformity. And this just kind of extends that where, like you said, where a priesthood leader steps in when you don't know what to do and when you're not sure what to do. Well, it's always going to be a priesthood leader that steps in and tells you what's right.
Ally Christiansen [01:49:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I got my mission call, I was actually really hoping that I would serve stateside. Is the terminology we use.
John Dehlin [01:50:05] We're going to say something right before.
Ally Christiansen [01:50:06] Well, I'll say it, I'll say it later. Okay. I did not want to be called to an area of the world where I would have to learn another language. Because my thinking was I only got 18 months to give 100% to God, whereas elders had two years. So it was okay for them to take six months to a year to learn how to communicate with people. But if that happened to me, I would like only have maybe six months to actually do what I wanted to do. So I was really, really hoping to serve English speaking and hopefully just in the United States. So I didn't have anything getting in the way of me doing God's work, which I mean, some people, they want to go on a mission and learn a language for like self development. Maybe that was not on my radar
Margi Dehlin [01:50:58] or like experience a culture from far away or. Yeah. And it just. That so shows too what an optimizer you were. I was just like, how can we optimize in this situation? So that I do the. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:51:13] Yeah. And lucky. You know, it did turn out I was called to the South Dakota Rapid City Mission, which has since turned into the North Dakota Bismarck Mission. So that was cool. When I opened my mission call, I was like, whoa. I've never even thought about South Dakota. Really, like, existing, but I'm going there. Cool. I love it. I was super excited. My mission. Yeah. Let's see. I. When I was buying clothes for my mission, I remember I. I was like, kind of learning how do I put all aspects of myself aside. I didn't even buy clothes that I liked. I just bought clothes that. That I thought would make me look like a powerful representative of Christ.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:06] Wow.
Ally Christiansen [01:52:06] And kind of in my mission, when I noticed other sisters who wore a little bit more probably flattering, feminine kind of cute clothes, part of me was, like, a little bit jealous, but also part of me was a little bit judgy because I thought, like, that's not really what you're here for. We're here to just lose ourselves and go to work.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:33] So there's such a. Such a common thread of, like, you kind of mentioned on just this. A denial of self. Right. Any. Any sort of remnant of. Of you as an identity or having preference or personality. It's just like, wipe it clear. That's the ideal.
Ally Christiansen [01:52:56] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:56] Erase. Erase yourself and become this sort of vessel.
Ally Christiansen [01:53:01] That was the goal. Do you want me to talk about my endowment experience?
Temple Endowment and Mission Highs and Lows
John Dehlin [01:53:10] If it was noteworthy for you? Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:53:13] I'll just say when I went to the temple.
John Dehlin [01:53:15] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:53:17] I was fortunate enough that my oldest sister had previously been married in the temple. So she gave me kind of a little bit more of a heads up than I think a lot of people get.
John Dehlin [01:53:28] Is this one of the two that had lost their faith?
Ally Christiansen [01:53:30] No.
John Dehlin [01:53:30] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:53:31] The oldest, still very faithfully. Mom.
John Dehlin [01:53:35] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [01:53:39] So she. Besides the temple prep classes that you take and they teach you kind of just general, like, things, she said, read through this section in the Pearl of Great Price that talks about Adam and Eve. She said, look at this picture of the kind of clothes that they wore in the ancient temple and just, like, know that there are also special clothes that you'll be wearing. So she gave me kind of some heads up like that so that when I went through, I wasn't really surprised. And in fact, it all felt really special when I. The first part, the initiatory. It was another kind of spiritual highlight of my life where I just. I could. I remember I could feel, like, kind of tingles going through my whole body and just like, waves and Waves of, you know, love and peace and feeling like I was just washed clean and ready for anything. And also my, my grandparents, my dad's parents at this time were getting a little bit older and it was harder for them to get around, but they came to my endowment. So it was really special to have lots, lots of family there. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:55:03] So overall, your temple endowment experience was, Was what.
Ally Christiansen [01:55:06] It was beautiful. And I went every week until I went on my mission. And one of the hardest things about my mission was that I couldn't go to the temple any. Every week.
John Dehlin [01:55:17] Yeah,
Ally Christiansen [01:55:20] I have just a few. I don't. I won't say everything about my mission because that would take forever. I will say I was super obedient. That was. My grandpa told me, be obedient. And I was like, yes, that's the way. That's the way. I had two mission presidents. The first one, President Anderson, he's like retired military or something, so he was very strict and a little more old fashioned, like just get out and tracked, just keep working hard, you know. And I loved him and Sister Anderson a lot and I felt very close with them. My mission was kind of like rural farmland. You know, every companionship had a car in our mission, which is not common. Most missionaries don't have cars, but we could drive for two hours from the middle of our area to the outside and like still be in our branch.
John Dehlin [01:56:28] So you needed a car to get around?
Ally Christiansen [01:56:29] We needed a car to get around. And it was kind of hard to find people who are interested. Most people there are very happily, like Lutheran. They, Everyone was really nice to me though. They were all very like, you know, knock on door, they open it, they maybe let you in, or they say, you know, you know, we appreciate what you're doing, but we're just not interested. So I did have a lot of kind of social anxiety about that. And every. I remember, like every day it was really hard for me to wake up and go talk to strangers about. I knew they didn't want to. I knew they didn't want to talk to me. You know, I felt much more comfortable, like working with ward lists and talking with either inactive members or helping active members. You know, just helping them feel more faithful. That felt way more comfortable to me. I, I did. Get a little bit compulsive, I think, about like health and exercise, which happens to a lot of missionaries. I think my trainer, which is like the person who was in charge of kind of teaching you everything that you need to know and what you need to do, she was very Strict about obedience. And we need to wake up five minutes early before 6:30, you know, 6:25. So, you know, you could pray and be going at 6:30 and hopefully be out the door jogging. And I. I mean, I was in North Dakota in October as when I was a baby, when I was a greenie. So it was kind of cold. And, you know, for a while, like, I didn't even have my. My quilt hadn't been sent there yet, and I didn't have all the coats and everything figured out because you just have to kind of get there and buy what you need. So there was. There was sometimes of physically, like, not being warm enough, but just kind of pushing through it. And I was, you know, after that, always very like, kind of, kind of. Now I feel bad for some companions that I have that I like. We have to wake up and we have to work out for half an hour every day. And there, you know, sometimes it would get to the point where I would get sick a little bit, you know, for just working so hard constantly, never taking a break. You'd get a cold every now and then, and it was so relieving to not have to go outside and to not have to feel bad about it. So anytime I got sick or my companion got sick, I had like, a very guilty, like, finally we could just rest. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:59:28] This match is kind of your high school experience. You're just hyper. Hyper performing. It's just kind of a continuation.
Ally Christiansen [01:59:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:59:34] So you're thinking Margi?
Margi Dehlin [01:59:36] Yeah,
Ally Christiansen [01:59:38] I was also. I. I learned how to kind of chase. I learned. I kind of figured out what I needed to do to, like, get called as. As a trainer and then as a sister training leader. So those both happened. And I definitely, like. I liked the feeling of feeling like I was worthy because I was trusted to do that. I was also, because I was a little bit more involved with the leadership, I was made more aware of. There were a lot of missionaries who had, like, really bad chronic illnesses, really bad anxiety, really bad depression, who were struggling. And a lot of us were going home. And that was kind of something that started to be my job to help take care of. So, you know, we would go on splits with other sisters. So I would go with one of them, then my companion would go with another one, and we'd spend a day with them. And usually it would just be like, them talking about how bad they were doing, which was, you know, a lot to deal with. And I had several companions who had their own depression and things that they were dealing with. And I Didn't realize at the time, but I definitely had some of my own, but I just couldn't allow myself to even recognize it. So that was really, it felt fulfilling, but it was really draining to be like in charge of other people my age. You know,
John Dehlin [02:01:32] what's causing emotions to come up for you when you talk about experiencing other sister missionaries struggling with mental health and, or wanting to stay on the mission?
Ally Christiansen [02:01:45] I guess just remembering like at the time how hard it was for these sisters who, you know, just as much as I did, they wanted to stay and serve a faithful mission and find the people that they were meant to find, you know, and going home is so, I mean, it's not what anyone plans and it's so socially awkward. No one wants to go home early especially. It seemed like there was a little bit of a difference with some elders on the mission. They just kind of had to be there. But if you were a sister, you really wanted to be there. So it was a great trial of faith for a lot of us when someone really wanted to be there and they're trying so hard, but it was just getting harder and harder and eventually they had to go home.
John Dehlin [02:02:48] Yeah. That was hard on them and it was hard on you to see it.
Ally Christiansen [02:02:52] Yeah. Although I am really grateful that my mission presidents took that seriously because I know that doesn't happen everywhere, that when people needed to go home, they did go home.
John Dehlin [02:03:06] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:03:07] I guess I can also say when I was a missionary, it was right before they made the change that you could talk to your family every week. So a lot of, I think a lot of it was just only being able to write letters and emails to your family once a week and then like have a one hour Skype call on Christmas and Mother's Day.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:32] Right, right. It's kind of like that all the expectations that are really, you know, a mission is a lot. And what's asked of you down to the minute is oftentimes, you know, set out before you.
Ally Christiansen [02:03:49] If you come in before 9 o' clock PM, you've done something wrong.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:54] Yeah. So it's such this, I mean, talk about like, you know, high, high expectations and then you think then. But you're going to lose your support people during that time as well. That's a very. And kind of cut you off from those people that oftentimes know you best and kind of know your story or who can really. That, that's, that's a whole other level. And I really feel for you as a young, a young person out there as deeply feeling as you are, you know, to be in a position of seeing this. This play out where it's like high expectations and you see, you know, friends and people that you really care about giving everything and it not being enough. And on some level, you know, internalizing or feeling really, you know, the difficult feelings of. Or the shame in going home or the self judgment that why can't I do it when I want it this badly? And then you also being in a position of. Of being like, you know, it not feeling easy for you either, you know, and you're whole, so you're holding your story and your difficulty and your challenges and theirs at the same time.
Ally Christiansen [02:05:16] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:16] And that would feel. That just would feel very overwhelming. I can imagine.
Ally Christiansen [02:05:21] Yeah. But it did feel like it was what I was supposed to be doing because it felt, you know, it's my job to put myself aside and take care of other people. And that was what I felt like I needed to do.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:38] Yeah, I was curious about that, just because in. In connecting with your brain, it feels like a key part of your brain is kind of defining what success looks like at this stage in your development. And so going into a mission, oftentimes you think of success being baptisms or whatever, and you're saying clearly that was something that was not happening in your mission. So how did you define success for you on your mission at this point?
Ally Christiansen [02:06:13] I. One thing was I had a goal for myself that every time I was transferred, I wanted to feel devastated because I was going to miss everyone there. So I wanted to get really close to the ward, the missionaries around. And that was true. I did felt. Feel like I got really close to every ward and branch that I was in, and I felt like I needed to take care of my companions as well as any other missionaries that were around. And then I also felt like I was working on my own conversion, you know, making sure besides maybe hopefully the people that I can influence around me, that I can be perfectly solid. One. One really positive thing about my mission experience was one companion that I had. She. She was a little bit more emotionally mature, I think, maybe than I was, even though she was younger than I was and she could kind of see through my facade. And she was, for the first while, she was always asking me, like, what's wrong? I could tell something's wrong. And I would say, nothing's wrong, I'm fine. And then finally, like, I guess she wore me down. And I finally told her how I felt. And I remember that as the first time I ever told. Anyone how I felt. For real. So I did have, you know, some experiences like that with people who I felt really close to because we were together all the time. I finally started learning how to notice myself and talk about it just a little bit.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:36] Wow.
John Dehlin [02:08:39] Do you remember what you told her?
Ally Christiansen [02:08:42] I think I said that I was feeling frustrated about something. I don't remember what it was.
John Dehlin [02:08:52] But that felt big to you?
Ally Christiansen [02:08:53] It was huge.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:57] Yeah. You connected to yourself and you expressed genuinely something that you were feeling. That's huge.
Ally Christiansen [02:09:03] I actually, we had to do this all the time, me and this companion. And I realized I called it the conflict sandwich or like there's like the storm cloud and then the rainbow. Because it was so, so hard and so scary to talk about how we both felt. And the more, the longer we went without talking, the bigger the sandwich got, the more, the more filling in the sandwich you had to fit your mouth around. But I was learning. It feels like you're going to die, but you're not. And it feels actually really good afterwards when you talk about how you feel.
Margi Dehlin [02:09:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:50] I mean, to somebody who's never experienced perfectionism, toxic perfectionism, they're going to be like where you, oh, you finally told someone how you felt. Like, but I'm guessing the pressure cooker of never being able to ever say how you feel. And I think to Margi's point of never even being allowed to be in, never allowing yourself to be in touch with your own feelings can actually be highly detrimental to your mental health and well being.
Ally Christiansen [02:10:23] Yeah, I often, I didn't, I didn't know that, like I could have my own internal world outside of someone else's. So I would just like, if I saw someone else who was sad, I would kind of feel sad with them. But it was really dependent on who I was around, kind of what I thought I was feeling. And it was not really. I didn't know that you were supposed to like, know how you felt inside and that it could be different from how someone else felt. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:03] Makes sense. It really does
John Dehlin [02:11:07] sound. It might sound small to a lot of people, but that sounds like that was a really huge moment for you.
Ally Christiansen [02:11:12] It was really big.
John Dehlin [02:11:13] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:11:13] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:14] I would be surprised if it sounds small because I do feel like, particularly for women in the church, this does not feel foreign to me. It feels very much like. And if you look at the work of Brene Brown, we know it does not just exist in our religion, it exists everywhere. This idea of perfectionism as an armor, it literally is an armor and it makes you. This idea that you're not vulnerable, and that we have to show this certain, you know, part of our identity or a way of showing up in the world that it's incredibly isolating and that the anecdote is sort of this idea of vulnerability, which is what you did. It's kind of like, oh, I'm actually not okay for you not to be completely perfect at a given moment and to say, it is the way through it. It is the way that you actually are able to feel not lonely, not completely, like, you know, isolated. And because that is what the armor of perfectionism does. It keeps us all from actually really seeing, you know, who we are. Right. It's just. I'm fine. Nope. I'm fine. I'm fine. Yep. We're here to do this, and I'm here to do it, and. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:12:39] And who knows? If I hadn't gone on a mission, maybe I would have learned it somewhere else, but I learned it on my mission.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:45] That was your moment. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:12:46] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:47] I love that.
John Dehlin [02:12:49] I also shout out to the sister missionary. That made you feel.
Ally Christiansen [02:12:52] Yeah, she knows who she is.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:56] Brilliant.
Ally Christiansen [02:12:57] We're still pretty good friends. I think we'll be friends forever. I also, when my first mission president left, we got the second mission president, President Hess. He's actually a general authority now, which was really exciting when that happened, because he's awesome. He was a businessman, and he had not served a mission when he was younger because he kind of had joined the church a little bit later. So he was really. He promoted us being a little more creative with what we did. So instead of just going out and tracting, and unless it was, you know, negative 30 degrees when it was too cold to go outside tracting, you weren't allowed to go outside. Other than that, we wouldn't go outside tracting. He was like, if you need to, like, spend some extra time planning activities or thinking of different ways that you could share the gospel, like, do that. So I think I flourished a little bit more, like, missionary wise with that kind of counsel because I had some companions who we would like. My last companion, we would. We wrote some, like, musical arrangements and we'd knock on people's doors and, like, sing them a hymn. And we did some, like, steak and ward fireside, musical things that people could bring. And that was way. It seemed way more comfortable for the ward members, as well as just people in general, to have kind of music be involved. And I liked that a lot better, too. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I also want to say another kind of highlight on my mission, just at the time, it was so cool. Elder Renlund came and toured our mission. It was actually right before he was called to be an apostle. So he was. I'm not sure if he was, like, what kind of level of general authority he was, but he came and talked to us, and it was so cool. And we got to shake his hand. And then it was like, the next weekend or so that it was general conference, and they were calling all the new apostles, three new apostles. I remember we were all like, wouldn't it be so cool if Elder Renlund was the next apostle? Because we all met him and he was the best, and he was. So. That felt like we had been extra blessed to kind of get to know an apostle, you know, before his time, was really cool.
John Dehlin [02:15:45] We love our apostles in Mormonism, don't we?
Ally Christiansen [02:15:50] Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of. At that point, my dream was to, like, you know, get married, go home and, like, figure out getting married and stuff, and hurry and, like, get old and retire so I could go on another mission and, like, maybe if I was lucky, like, get to be involved more in church leadership, because I loved it so much. And all the people, the senior missionaries we worked with were so wonderful. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:16:26] And that way, your kind of whole life gets kind of planned out for you at that point.
Ally Christiansen [02:16:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:16:31] You're kind of. You're kind of in. You're kind of on the train.
Ally Christiansen [02:16:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:16:36] Right.
Ally Christiansen [02:16:37] Yeah. So, I mean, there are more stories I could tell, but I think that's a pretty good snapshot of what my mission was like. I could have gone home early for, like, a job opportunity. And, you know, my mission president was so business savvy. He was actually encouraging me to go if I wanted to, but I really didn't want to go. I was like, I want to do. I want to extend. So that was kind of a trial that I had at the end, was figuring out what I wanted to do. And I did end up deciding. After so much fasting and prayer, I felt really good about staying. And then I ended up having a crazy experience with one sister in the ward that we were in. She had. The rest of her family was. Was in. She had married in. She'd married an LDS man, but she had never been baptized. It never felt right for her. And because I was still there, I was like. I ended up being in her ward, and for whatever reason, me and the other sister I was with were, like, the missionaries she needed. And it all clicked, and she was baptized. So that kind of felt like my sign of that was why I Needed to stay.
John Dehlin [02:17:56] What a way to end.
Ally Christiansen [02:17:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:17:57] So a great 18 months.
Ally Christiansen [02:17:59] I'm great 18 months.
John Dehlin [02:18:00] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:18:00] Lots of stress and, you know, lots of up and downs, but I was, for the most part, really happy with it.
John Dehlin [02:18:09] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:18:10] Yeah. So I went home. I went back to byu, and I was kind of thinking, like, either, well, hopefully I find a guy I, like, want to marry, but if not, this mission thing was awesome. Maybe I could just, like, be sort of like a Mormon nun. Just, like, they let single sisters, like, go on Mormons missions longer than they let elders. So I was like, my backup plan is kind of just like, graduate BYU and then just go on missions forever. So that was kind of what I was planning. And I did, actually, before my mission, I auditioned to get in the School of Music again, and I did not get in. So I came back and I was like, okay, I need to get ready to do another audition so I can do the music thing. I'm only gonna audition one more time because I probably need to, like, if it's not gonna work out, it's just not gonna work out. So I had, like, my sophomore year back from my mission was kind of this crazy mix of, like, I went to the CAP center to get diagnosed for adhd, because one of my older siblings was like, hey, I think I have adhd, and I think you do too. So I went before school started, and I got an assessment, and they said, yeah, you have ADHD and you also have an anxiety disorder. And I was like, huh? I thought it was fine. And then it was like that.
John Dehlin [02:19:39] For those who don't know, CAP stands for Counseling and Psychological Services. It's basically the University Counseling center for Mental Health at byu. And my understanding is they're amazing therapists there that are very supportive no matter what your experience is. So for any BYU students who happen to be watching who need mental health support or feel like they might, my understanding is CAPS is a very safe and healthy place generally to go.
Ally Christiansen [02:20:05] It can be kind of hard to get in because while they do have a lot of staff, there's just always a really long wait list. So. But I did. I did, like, get in to the weight I got in. So I was able to start having, like, talk therapy that year, which was really helpful. So that year, I started having panic attacks. I didn't really know what they were, but I was starting to be like, oh, I do. I do. I probably do have anxiety. And, like, I kind of tried taking medicine for a while, but I didn't like how it felt. So I Just didn't. I was like, I'll just exercise and, like, eat healthy, which probably just made it a little bit worse, to be honest. I also started dating this guy that he seemed really nice and, like, a good Mormon. And I was like, great, let's get married. But it was, like, now I could see it was not really meant to be at the time. I really, really liked him. And we would, like, date for, like, a month, but then I would, like, have a panic attack. I'd feel, like, really bad about myself, and I would, like, text him and say, I'm sorry, I don't feel good. We got a breakup. And I would come with him, and then I would be, like, really depressed for a while, but then we'd get back together. And that just happened back and forth all year. Finally, at the end of the year, he was like. I mean, I thought he was like, we need to talk. And I was like, yeah, we need to talk because we need to figure out when we're going to get married. And he was like, we need to, like, really break up. And I was so blindsided because I was still so oblivious. Like, I was starting to have a little bit of an award, but I was, yeah.
Returning Home, Anxiety, and Early Dating at BYU
John Dehlin [02:21:50] Had your mission president given you counsel at the end of your mission? On what? Regarding marriage and child rearing? What was that? Counsel?
Ally Christiansen [02:21:59] Yeah, get married. Find someone worthy to take you to temple. And it's great if they're an RM too, because you. We both would get it. He was an rm. There was also, like, the church had started a program to help missionaries kind of phase out of missions. So there was, like, some goal setting and things. So I had set some goals about, like, dating is scary, but I got to do it. And I'm. This is like, I'm going to try to go on this many dates, and I'm going to, like, try to find. Find the one. So that was happening.
John Dehlin [02:22:38] And just to be clear, this was. This was. This is by what, 2015?
Ally Christiansen [02:22:43] 2016. 2016. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:46] Yeah. So by this point, we had interviewed Samantha and Tanner Zelf on the shelf. The church was losing its millennials. It was starting to hemorrhage. They were starting to find out that upwards of 80% of the kids raised Mormon in the US were choosing to leave the church even after serving missions. And so lowering the mission age didn't solve the problem. And so they implemented some of these programs post mission to see if there was a way they could keep kids from leaving the church after. After serving a mission. Yeah, right.
Ally Christiansen [02:23:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:20] That was the program.
Ally Christiansen [02:23:21] Yeah. And actually, at this point, I had never heard of Mormon stories.
John Dehlin [02:23:25] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:23:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:27] Well, I wasn't referring to Mormon stories. It's just the church's response.
Ally Christiansen [02:23:32] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:33] By this time, the church is starting to really get worried that they're going to be losing entire generations of Mormons by 2015, 2016.
Ally Christiansen [02:23:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:41] Because there had been the ordained women stuff with. With Kate Kelly and the excommunication, the gospel topics essays, CES letter, the Internet and all that stuff, along with whatever else, just national or global dynamics was just causing youth to just flee any religion, let alone Mormonism. So you were. You were right there.
Ally Christiansen [02:24:04] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:05] In that wave.
John Dehlin [02:24:06] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:07] You're in that wave.
John Dehlin [02:24:08] Yeah. So were those programs helpful to you?
Ally Christiansen [02:24:11] I loved it.
John Dehlin [02:24:12] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:12] I.
John Dehlin [02:24:13] What were the programs? Describe them, if you want.
Ally Christiansen [02:24:15] It was called, like, My Plan, I think. And there was like a. I think we had an extra hour on P Day for like, the last six weeks of our mission to go through, like, a website, kind of like, it was kind of like watching a work training or something. There was like, here's this video you watch now. Like, go write down this from this prompt. Like, what are your thoughts? And there was, like, a place for you to write it down, like on a worksheet or something, so you could take it with you. And I kind of had a soapbox that. I thought it was insane that we couldn't go back to the MTC after our mission to help us, like, retransition back to normal life. It's like, well, I'm glad to have this my plan thing, but I want to go back to the MTC for. For a while before I go back home. Yeah. Just. I just had to go home. The way it let me back into the mtc. Yeah. So let's see. I was. That. That kind of dating thing was happening that year, that sophomore year. And then I was also. Twice I was. That summer and then the school year. I was the relief society president of two different wards, which felt. It's like, yep, I need. I need to stay on the path. I need to keep having, like, leadership callings. So that was great. That was what I wanted. It was a little bit similar to being a missionary in the sense that seemed like a lot of BYU students in our ward and probably everywhere were having a lot of anxiety and depression. So that's mostly what we talked about, but I liked it. I would also. I mean, a little like an idea of kind of how I was doing outside of my unawareness is on a Sunday, I would come home from church at like 3 o' clock and I would just fall asleep and sleep all until the next day. And there were several days where I would just be so tired that I would just like, it was like the afternoon and I would just go home and fall asleep. And I was like, sure, I have anxiety or whatever, but it's fine. I'll just read my scriptures more and figure it out.
John Dehlin [02:26:39] And this, this strikes me as what we call a co. Morbidity where you have an anxiety disorder, but it's wearing you out so much that it's sort of causing depressive depression symptoms to emerge. Where now you've got anxiety, an untreated anxiety that leads to depression. So you've got anxiety and depression, if that's. That sounds right to you. That's what it sounds like.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:06] I mean, I was never. I wasn't really diagnosed with depression, but I would say I at least had depressive episodes pretty frequently that year.
Margi Dehlin [02:27:16] Yeah. And sometimes it's like, honestly, anxiety is so exhausting. It is. So that, that shutdown, that sort of forced shutdown of sleep, your body's just like got. It's like not even a choice. It's just sort of like you're doing too much.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:27:36] Or you've got some things you need to work through or you're not in tune with yourself. Any of those things are possible.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:42] Yeah. So I was also. That you're kind of prepping to audition one more time.
John Dehlin [02:27:48] 4.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:49] 4. The Opera Performance Program major. And I thought, if I don't get in this time, I'm just not going to do it. But I like, I want to try one more time.
John Dehlin [02:27:58] BYU is highly competitive.
Ally Christiansen [02:28:00] It is.
John Dehlin [02:28:00] It's not quite Juilliard, but there are
Ally Christiansen [02:28:02] people who get into Juilliard for their undergrad who do not get into byu.
John Dehlin [02:28:07] Yeah. Yep. That intense.
Ally Christiansen [02:28:10] Yeah. Just because everyone wants to go there.
John Dehlin [02:28:13] Yeah. And Mormons crank out a lot of great stuff. Singers, right?
Ally Christiansen [02:28:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:28:17] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:28:21] So that summer I had a bit of like a sort of a breakdown with like the guy being like, yeah, we're not. We're not getting married. We're not even. Like, we're not a thing. Like, this is not healthy. That was really hard. So I got signed up to go on a study abroad with the choir programs in London. And that was kind of like a bit of a turnaround moment for me. I got to know the faculty really well there and it was a really, really cool study abroad experience where we would just like in the day we would go to a classroom to talk about the concert that we were going to watch that night. Then that afternoon we were free to go explore museums or watch a musical or whatever. And then that night we would go to a different choir concert. And it was like. It was just like weeks and weeks of that. And that made me really excited and kind of gave me the idea of maybe I can help our church choral music be this good. Because after listening to all these, you know, professional English choirs and then listening to the Tabernacle Choir again, it was like, oh, that's a difference. And like, we are the Lord's church. We can be doing better. So I kind of came out of that experience with that goal in mind. And I was also a little bit revived in, like, feeling optimistic about. About life and myself. And that, like, the week after that was when I met my now husband. So he was just like, his grandparents lived in my home ward, and he was there just for the weekend, and I was there just that weekend. And his grandma introduced us after Relief Society because she said, his name is Zach. She said, zach, there's this wonderful girl you've got to meet. And when we first met, I thought, he just looks, like, not my type. He's like, too, like, buff and, like, generically good looking to be the kind of person I probably want to be with. So I kind of wrote him off and was maybe a little bit standoffish, but he messaged me on. He found me on Facebook and messaged me later to see if I wanted to go on a date. But I had already. I had left to go live with my aunt for the rest of the summer. So it didn't end up working out for us to go on a date then. But we did all summer talk on Facebook and I had a summer of working a terrible vitamin bottling factory job that was just not fun. But, you know, I needed money because I just been gone forever and spent all my money. And then I was in a YSA ward. I just went on date after date with, like, people I just did not connect with. And then this guy was so cool. So when we went. When we got back together, when we got to school at the same time, because he was also at byu, we went on a date, like the. Like one of the first weekends of school. And I remember I opened the door and I was like, whoa, he looks way different than I remember. And I was like, feeling butterflies and feeling like kind of in love in a way I'd never had before. And it was so exciting. And, like, when we finished what we Thought was gonna be the date. We were still having fun, so then we went to my apartment and had ice cream, and we were still having fun, so it's just, like, really hard to, like, stop because we just immediately hit off really well.
John Dehlin [02:32:20] What are you grinning over there about, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [02:32:23] Oh, it might be reminding me of ours. Our first date, that's all.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:29] That's sweet.
John Dehlin [02:32:30] BYU love.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:31] BYU love. It's so fun.
John Dehlin [02:32:34] Is this the gentleman you end up marrying? Zach?
Ally Christiansen [02:32:37] Yeah, Zach.
John Dehlin [02:32:38] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:38] He's awesome. So then the next day was a. Some. Some church devotion. It was. The next day was Sunday, and we went to, like, some church broadcast devotional together, and that was awesome. And then the next day was Monday, and he invited me to go, like, eat lunch with him. And we did eat lunch together, but I noticed, like, he wasn't as engaged in conversation as I was, and I was like, oh, no. Like, something's wrong. And after that, he kind of, like, lost interest for a while, and me and my roommates were crushed because we all thought it was the best.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:19] I love how the roommates are in there. Yeah, it's the collective experience.
Ally Christiansen [02:33:23] It is. Yeah. So we were all very sad. But then a month later, I was, like, sitting in the library, so. Oh, yeah, I guess I didn't also mention that summer I did get into the program. Oh, yes. I left that out because I was swept away by the romance in my brain. Yeah. So the summer of, like, after my crazy sophomore year with, like, this weird dating experience and, like, super bad anxiety, then I went to London and I got into the program, and, like, everything was just kind of working out. So I was like, yeah, we got this. I, like, went to the temple enough or something. It finally worked. So, yeah, a month later, Zach ran into me, and I was in the library sitting on the floor by all the printers with all of the music books open from the library has all those music books. And I was getting ready to copy my music for the semester. And for whatever reason, he thought that was, like, kind of dorky and weird that I was sitting on the floor in the library. So he walked over, started talking to me, and we ended up every day after that, talking. And then in November, I was scratching his back when we were sitting next to each other watching a devotional. And he looked over and he said, can I take you out to dinner tonight? And I was like, yeah, because I knew he was gonna ask me to be his girlfriend. And he did. And then, you know, it was really exciting when we finally held hands. And then we Kissed. Which was like, I had kissed the other guy before, but this felt a little bit. A little bit more like butterflies. Ish. Rather than just kind of scary.
John Dehlin [02:35:23] Mm.
Ally Christiansen [02:35:27] So, yeah, then when it was Thanksgiving, it was really hard to be apart. And then, you know, the end of the semester is Christmas break. So we were. We were like, well, we're gonna, like, get each. Get each other something nice for Christmas. So I made him a scarf. I learned how to knit, and I knit him a scarf, and he wore it when we went to Temple Square together. And then he gave me a book that he had made, and it had pictures of us in it, and it had, like, pictures of me at the end. And then he said, I love you for the first time. And I said, I love you for the first time. It was so great. We were so in love and so happy. And then I had to drive him to the airport and drop him off so he could be with his family for Christmas. And it was the worst Christmas ever because we were apart. So I was very mopey and sad all Christmas. I just couldn't wait to get back. And then had a moment the day before going back to school. I, like, felt within myself, like, we're gonna start talking about marriage soon. Just, like, heads up. And I was like, oh, weird. That seems crazy. Like, I was kind of thinking I would date someone for, like, two or three years before we got married. I did not want to do the standard rushed BYU marriage, but I went back to school, and he kind of, like, was about to say something. You know, I picked him up. He was back in my apartment,
Margi Dehlin [02:37:06] but
Ally Christiansen [02:37:06] then he, like, stopped himself. And I was like, what were you going to say? And he's like, can we talk about it later? And anyway, he realized he was about to say, like, when we have a house. So then he's like, so I think maybe we need to talk about whether or not we're going to get married. So we did. And so that was January of 2018, and I honestly had kind of felt like I wanted to marry him since, like, our first date. But I never told him because that was crazy. You can't tell someone that. But I really felt good about it. And it was really weird because, like, you kind of pointed out, Margi, I've had a lot of, like, anxiety about making decisions in my life, and I always thought it would be really hard to decide how to get married. But, like, from the beginning, I always felt, like, really comfortable around him. There was, like, never anxiety. And I felt like I could just Be myself. I was never like doing like the fake being happy thing around him. And he didn't do it either. And when we talked about getting married, he was really honest with me about some of like, you know, masturbation and pornography, things that he felt really bad about. And I just remember being so taken aback that he would trust me with that. It helped me just feel closer with him. So I know some people, it feels differently. But when he shared that with me, I knew like, well, I know this is hard for him and this is a thing he struggles with and doesn't want to do. So I'm not mad at him. I just am grateful that he would be honest with me, like once we're getting serious, you know.
John Dehlin [02:39:04] That must have been great for him to have you respond that way.
Ally Christiansen [02:39:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:39:08] Versus with shame and judgment.
Ally Christiansen [02:39:11] Yeah, well, I, I mean, small aside, I really wanted him to come and tell his story because he has a great story too. But he was like, eh, whatever. He did say I could share this, but yeah, that's been, you know, for like, like for many guys, a really big hard thing for him to kind of deal with. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:39:32] Yeah. I'm curious if you. So we introduced the idea of asexuality at the beginning of this episode. And as I'm thinking about my daughter Clara's book that she wrote about asexuality, one of the most important things about that book for me was the part about different types of attraction that we, we usually, when we say attraction, we think sexual attraction. But the truth is there are lots of dimensions of attraction. There's esthetic attraction, which is how beautiful or handsome you or style are. There's, you know, friendship, you know, kind of emotional attraction, how emotionally connected you are, their intellectual attraction, how intellectually attracted you are. Lots of different types of attraction. And we're not ever taught to really distinguish between all them. We just kind of think of it as a binary. Are we tracked or not? And that's it. And then of course, because we're, we're taught the law of chastity, we're taught we are never to experiment sexually prior to marriage. Don't even do anything to arouse the passions. Then if, if you don't experience sexual attraction or if you're just really hardcore about that requirement, it can make things very interesting in terms of what you don't discover or explore prior to marriage. And I don't want to have you talk about this before you're ready, but I'm wondering if any of this comes in, if this is a good time in your storyline to even start exploring any of these topics or not?
Discovering Asexuality and Navigating Intimacy
Ally Christiansen [02:41:15] Yeah, yeah. I guess at this point, like, prior to this experience, whenever I heard someone saying they had a hard time keeping the law of chastity, I was always, like, thinking that I must, like, be way more righteous or something, because it was just never hard for me. Like, that was never a temptation for me. In fact, it was like, it would just kind of make me nervous to, like, think about, like, doing anything like that. And it wasn't until I met Zach and we got really close, and I think I started to feel a really strong romantic attraction to him. And then.
John Dehlin [02:42:00] And that's different from sexual attraction?
Ally Christiansen [02:42:02] Yeah, that is. And then as we got closer.
John Dehlin [02:42:04] How would you describe the difference between sexual. Sexual attraction and romantic attraction, if you even.
Ally Christiansen [02:42:08] Yeah, I guess. I think I'm still. I. I still feel like I don't quite understand maybe what sexual attraction is, but I think it is just, like, if you want to have sex with someone and versus romantic attraction is like, if you've watched the best, like, romantic movie, like Pride and Prejudice. I love Pride and Prejudice. I've always have. Or like, good romance stories is just, like, feeling, like, loving to spend, like, do romantic things together and, like, feeling so in love. This is kind of how I understand them. So I felt really, like, romantically interested in this guy Zach, and then later on, I did start to eventually, like, have this compulsion to be close with him that I had never really felt before, which was like, oh, oh, that's. That's what it is. And it was also kind of relieving because at this point I was like, aren't you supposed to, like, want to have sex with people? And, like, aren't you supposed to want to kiss? Like, people talk about, like, having crushes on celebrities and, like, I would kind of, like, say someone that I thought was kind of cool, maybe, but it was never, like, a natural, intuitive thing for me until then.
John Dehlin [02:43:36] So there's a difference between feeling romantically attracted to someone thinking they're beautiful, aesthetic attraction, being close friends, being feeling romantically attracted to them. There's a difference between all that and feeling sexually attracted to them, which is I want to have sex with them.
Ally Christiansen [02:43:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:54] And that maybe wasn't super strong for you.
Ally Christiansen [02:43:58] Yeah. Yeah. Ex. Well, it did kind of happen with Zach, although it wasn't initially there. And it was really surprising when I started to feel that way. Yeah. I guess before this, I kind of thought I just needed to base a marriage on, like, spiritual compatibility maybe.
John Dehlin [02:44:24] And that's also a form of attraction, spiritual attraction.
Ally Christiansen [02:44:27] And, I mean, he was a. He was an awesome. I was very spiritually impressed by him. Too many ways. I was very impressed by this guy. But. Yeah. So we decided we were going to get married, and I bought my wedding dress in February because I also was thinking that I wanted to go on another study abroad before we got married, this time to Austria. So we were planning on getting married in August, but because of, like, scheduling things, we just kept having to move our wedding forward. So we ended up getting married in June. So I. We, like, officially got engaged in March, you know, had. We were planning on getting married, but, you know, you have to, like, buy the ring and then, like, have the proposal that, like, people take pictures of, you know? And then a couple weeks after that, I flew off to Vienna to be gone for, like, seven weeks. And then I came back, and a week later, we got married, which was hard and crazy. It was. I didn't realize, like, it was a. So I would call Zach an allosexual person, which is the terminology for, I guess, kind of high or normal. Maybe, like, being interested in being physically close with the person that you love. So it was really hard for him for me to be gone, like, physically gone, like, eight hours away while we were engaged. It was hard for me, too. I really missed him.
John Dehlin [02:46:22] Maybe hard for him in a different way.
Ally Christiansen [02:46:24] Yeah. Yeah. And kind of that summer, once we got back together, like, the week before our wedding, I was really stressed because I had gained a little bit of weight eating pastries all the time. So I was, like, trying to, like, hurried fad diet, which was terrible, but I was it. Because I had already bought my wedding dress. They didn't. They couldn't change it. So I was, like, kind of dieting and cranky and, like, stressing about getting everything ready for our wedding. So by the time it was our wedding, I was, like, not feeling very sexually interested, if you know what I mean, because I was just so overwhelmed with everything, so. But I was kind of, like, expecting once everything calmed down, it would get easier. But that summer was not the easiest. It didn't just come naturally like we thought it would. I actually signed up and took a healthy sexuality class at byu, which was really helpful. But it's still having. Having gone my whole life just being completely unaware and not really caring about that part of myself, and then being married to someone who had been a little bit more aware of his own sexuality was a lot of headbutting, for sure. And we've kind of looked back and thought, like, what if. What if, like, we had been able to figure a little bit more out before we got married, Would that have put less pressure on both of us, less pressure on me, less pressure on him, less fear about. About everything working out? Because I quickly found, like, it was a cycle of feeling, like, really, like, guilty and kind of shameful for not, like, automatically being the way that I thought I was supposed to be or, like, feeling really interested all the time. And then because I felt so guilty, that just made it harder and harder. So it was kind of like a spiral of really hard time figuring it out. And then there was also the element of it was my job to keep my husband virtuous. Because if he messed up.
John Dehlin [02:49:14] And when you say messed up, just to make it explicit for the listeners.
Ally Christiansen [02:49:17] Yeah. So if, you know, if it had been a while since we had sex and he ended up, like, masturbating, even though we tried to tell each other, you know, it's not my fault. It felt like it was my fault. And I worried that. That him marrying me was hurting him. Even though we loved each other. There was just so much both expectation culturally for things to just be easy as well as so much shame for any sort of deviance that I even then was starting to recognize. Like, I don't think. I don't think this is bad. Like, I don't think masturbating is. It doesn't seem that bad to me, but that was kind of confusing. So.
John Dehlin [02:50:34] And is it okay if we tease a few things out, really? And I'm trying to put on my. My memory of learning about asexuality from. From Clara and others. But first of all, it's important to understand that being asexual does not necessarily mean having no libido, that you can be asexual and have a high sex drive as a man or a woman, but that would just mean that you feel driven maybe to masturbate or to have your own sexual experience. That the real linchpin for whether one is asexual or not is whether they have sexual desire for another person, as I understand it.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:51:22] So you don't want to confuse a low libido with asexuality.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:26] Right.
John Dehlin [02:51:26] You could be asexual and have a high libido or asexual and have a normal libido or a b. Asexual.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:51:32] And have a low libido.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:51:33] So there's that distinction. It's all about whether or not you were feeling sexual desire for your husband.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:42] Right, right.
John Dehlin [02:51:44] And you said in the engagement period you did feel some sexual attraction.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:51:50] Or desire towards him. Once the wedding happened, it just.
Ally Christiansen [02:51:56] It wasn't all the time.
John Dehlin [02:51:58] Mm.
Ally Christiansen [02:52:00] Yeah, I. I guess to kind of clarify things, I've had a few years to kind of figure this out, and the way that I best understand myself at this point in time is I consider myself to be demisexual. So that's under the umbrella term of asexuality, which can kind of have a lot of different aspects. So demisexuality means that you don't have sexual attraction for someone unless you have, like, a really close emotional bond with them first. So, like, some people will only feel sexual attraction to, like, one or two people in their life. So that to me, like, when I was in high school, when I was in middle school, I never, like, felt that way about anyone. And I thought it was just because I was like a good Mormon.
John Dehlin [02:53:04] You were virtuous?
Ally Christiansen [02:53:05] Yeah, I thought I was just being a guardian of virtue, but I didn't realize until later, like. No, there are people who, like, feel this way, like most. Many people do. Most people feel, like, feel this way. It's like a hard thing to like, have to block that part of yourself out. Yeah. So. And then I guess I would also kind of. My sexual experience is a little bit gray sexual too. So sometimes it's a little bit more than other times. So it's never, like, consistent with my partner. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:53:54] And another aspect that I think might be good to mention is just this idea of, you know, a spectrum. And for some, that sexual attraction component not being there, it can show up as sex averse. Meaning. No, never. Right.
John Dehlin [02:54:17] Actual aversion where you experience sex as distasteful or gross.
Ally Christiansen [02:54:21] Gross or Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:22] Revolting, as opposed to kind of. Right. Neutral. Neutral, which, you know. And then. Yeah, so that, that would also influence, I think, the experience of relationship within. I just think it's important to. To kind of mention how that can play out.
Ally Christiansen [02:54:42] Yeah, that's. That's a good point.
John Dehlin [02:54:46] And just define for people what you mean by gray sexual.
Ally Christiansen [02:54:51] I mean, I just like, kind of get this off of the asexual Reddit subreddit. So that's a good place to look if you're like, kind of want to see different ideas. But so some people feel like just totally no sexual attraction ever. No interest ever, you know, no romantic attraction ever. So they would be like on. On the slide. They would be very, like, very asexual. But some people sometimes feel, towards some people, some attraction. So that would Be like sliding up the scale. It's now like gray. Right. So that's kind of the gray sexual is. Sometimes I feel, sometimes one feels sexual attraction and sometimes one does not.
Margi Dehlin [02:55:41] It reminds me of the cake analogy. I just feel like it works super well of like, yes, I like cake, I like to eat cake. You offer me cake and I like to eat it.
John Dehlin [02:55:51] Some people like cake.
Margi Dehlin [02:55:52] Yes. And some people are like, I like cake sometimes. On occasion, kind of depends, right? Or no, I just, I just don't like cake.
Ally Christiansen [02:56:06] Yeah, right, yeah. And I guess to do the cake thing, it's like I felt like, well, my husband really likes cake, he will crave cake and I don't, I kind of rarely crave it. But I'll like, I'll eat it, I'll enjoy it. I just, I don't like think about it. It just like, it's not like pinging in my brain that I'm craving cake, you could say. So for, for like the first part of our marriage, I thought it was just because he was like a guy and I was like a girl and I was like maybe Molly Mormon syndrome, which is what some people have called like having a hard time feeling sexual after being raised in a very shameful culture. But yeah, this is kind of the understanding I've come to now is what's going on.
John Dehlin [02:57:06] So it wasn't Molly Mormon syndrome?
Ally Christiansen [02:57:08] I don't think so. I mean there was some of that too for sure. Cuz I spent my whole life identifying as not being interested. So it was hard to like rewire that too or feeling even. Okay. Okay with having sex. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:57:31] So if I had to, if I had to summarize, what I'm hearing is that no, no sexual exploration before marriage that be conceptualized as just righteousness. Then you get married, your husband is feeling a lot of sex drive generally, but a lot of sexual attraction to you specifically. You're not always feeling that in return. So there's a disparity in terms of desire and frequency around sex that ends up making him feel frustrated, you feeling sad, you both wondering why the discrepancy. And then if he finds a way to supplement or you know, get his sexual needs met through masturbation, then he would feel guilty and sad. He would probably feel some animosity towards you as maybe being the cause of that. And then you would also feel guilt and shame about maybe being the cause of that, but also wondering if it was healthy for you to be viewed as the solution to his sexual needs for sexual outlet, because that would leave you feeling objectified maybe.
Ally Christiansen [02:58:41] Yeah, that captures it pretty well.
Margi Dehlin [02:58:43] And I do think this is interesting if we're looking at sort of monogamy as like a construct. I do feel like this is one of the major challenges and maybe a pitfall of this religious message of almost kind of a sexual ownership or a sexual relationship where in relationship, particularly monogamy, we are to show up to fulfill single handedly one human is showing up to fulfill another human's sexual needs. I just, it's a no go, right. It's just super complicated. And I think it is one of the, one of the harder aspects to a monogamous relationship, you know, And I
Ally Christiansen [02:59:33] think especially in a very strict LDS sort of setting, it's like there's nothing you can do. Like there's no way to sort of compromise in a way that makes everyone feel like they're taken care of. Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:50] That's such a good point. No outlets, no resources. The things that normally you could kind of work through, like having someone take care of themselves, like honestly to help and take care of themselves is a shameful, it is not an option.
Ally Christiansen [03:00:08] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:00:10] And maybe I'll, I'll do what I sometimes do and ask the really hard, somewhat offensive question because in the history of Mormonism there would, and this is probably not just a uniquely Mormon thing, there would be sort of this wisdom of like, wives, be available for your husband. That's your duty to just whatever your husband's in need, you be there for him and that way he won't sin, but it'll strengthen your marriage and he won't want to stray because you are always perpetually available. Now Margi's already smiling at me, but that's, that's very common Mormon wisdom to be passed down to the women. And if you were to say what might be, there's suboptimal slash damaging about that, what would you say in response to an orthodox Mormon who's like, come on, that's your job?
Ally Christiansen [03:00:58] Well, I would say at that point I was, I kind of expected that and I thought that was how it was going to go and I was ready to do that. But I married the right guy and he wanted me to be happy, which I'm really grateful for. I'm really grateful that for one, I loved myself enough to marry someone who would care about me in that way. Because it would have been really, I'm sure, easy to find someone who wasn't like that at byu. But I was lucky enough to do that. And I'm really Grateful that he was able to, you know, still does kind of put me first. And always make sure that I'm feeling loved and safe and comfortable too. I guess if I was to respond to this devil's advocate person and say, what's wrong with it? Well, what kind of marriage is that? You know, if one person is just being stepped on, And I'm really lucky that is not what happened to me. It has definitely been a good opportunity to communicate how we both feel because we both have very different head spaces around, like. Like, it's just really hard for me to understand how he feels, and it's really hard for him to understand how I feel. At least if we base it on just, like, our own experience.
Margi Dehlin [03:02:54] I think on a level, you know, it's important to realize how culturally programmed we are that just sex is a given. Everyone likes it, everyone wants it. I mean, I have a memory that it was in the dsm, quite frankly. Quite frankly, you know, not too long ago. I think, you know, on a level, being educated, it's not so different from, I think, other things. And so this idea of love being that you're creating a world together and it involves two different people, then to me, I don't know what you're creating. If. If one part of you is betraying yourself to show up for another. I don't. I don't know that that's healthy love. I don't know that. That. And so being able to sort of have conversations as to, you know, hey, this is what it is for me, okay? And that's what it is for you. And looking at it as. As more of kind of a coming together in a way that's honoring and creating a love that's familiar to you. Instead of this idea of, I have to figure it out, I need to figure you out, and this needs to make sense to me. Sometimes I think that's an excuse sometimes to actually not offer compassion and just be able to say it almost doesn't matter. Your experience is just valid. So what do we want to do? And how do. How do we create a love in this sense of intimacy that feels like it's intimacy for you? And how do I also get my needs met? You know what I mean?
Ally Christiansen [03:04:47] Yeah, I guess ideally, I mean, every marriage is probably. Everyone's a little bit different. Right. So hopefully you can both talk about what you're both needing constantly and take care of each other and yourself, no matter where you are on the spectrum.
Margi Dehlin [03:05:12] That's right.
John Dehlin [03:05:14] Beautiful. Thank you. And thank you for being here. So I guess you're saying that made your first year or two of marriage maybe more difficult than it needed to be. This dynamic, it was hard.
Ally Christiansen [03:05:35] That element was hard. But at the same time, it felt really cool to have someone that I trusted that much to like, talk to about stuff like this. Because, you know, just a few years ago was the first time I'd like, been open about how I really felt. So in that way, it was really, really rewarding. Plus, I am pretty highly romantically interested. I have high romantic interest. And it feels really nice to be, like pursued and like, cared about in that way. You know, to have someone who loves me and will like, talk to me about stuff, talk with me about things a lot feels really like, I don't know, nice. So in that way, it's nice too.
Getting Married and Personal Growth at BYU
John Dehlin [03:06:28] So just from a, from kind of a closure standpoint, you get married, you're a. End of your sophomore year, beginning of your junior year.
Ally Christiansen [03:06:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:06:39] And. And you, you guys get married in the temple. And at that point, actually my, my
Ally Christiansen [03:06:46] first mission president had been our sealer, so it was a very special wedding.
John Dehlin [03:06:52] And I'm guessing you both had an understanding that you were building your marriage on top of the gospel and that you were going to be staying on the train, as I like to say, and living the gospel not just till the end of your lives, but for eternity.
Ally Christiansen [03:07:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:07:09] And the gospel is going to be an inextricable part of your marriage and your family going forward.
Ally Christiansen [03:07:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:07:15] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [03:07:16] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:07:17] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:07:17] Can I say one, an observation that I just think is so meaningful is just witnessing your journey from this place where you begin. And it's really a lot of showing up for others, really how you feel valued, loved, important to your mission, where you have kind of an experience of connecting to yourself for the first time in this way of being able to state what you're feeling in a vulnerable way. And the process of that and then the courage of actually standing your ground and being in that place and being able to say, I'm frustrated or I'm all the way to like, you deciding to get married, you making this decision on your own, navigating all of that on your own, and then this sexuality piece of being able to really, that is a deeply self reflective connecting part. And to be able to kind of own that and advocate and work through that with another human being. Ying and that's a journey like, wow, that's. That's really amazing. Like, I really. Can, I. Can we just honor the journey of that? And up to this point, yeah, it's worth honoring.
Ally Christiansen [03:08:53] I really felt like even just at that, at that point in my life, I really felt like I had grown a lot. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:03] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [03:09:03] And learned so much more about myself.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:07] Yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful to see.
Ally Christiansen [03:09:12] Thank you.
John Dehlin [03:09:14] And I'll just as it seems like one of the main themes of part one of your story is kind of underdevelopment of the self. I learned this term cultural appropriation. How sometimes people or religions or organizations can appropriate the culture of somebody else. But it was only recently that somebody introduced the idea of identity appropriation, where an organization or a system can kind of appropriate someone's identity and implant
Margi Dehlin [03:09:47] seed
John Dehlin [03:09:47] and identity that isn't authentic to the person, where the person ends up never reaching adulthood, never really even knowing their thoughts or feelings or preferences, let alone ever cultivating them. So I think that's. That's a theme here is kind of identity appropriation or a lack of self knowledge around feelings and identity. That's, that's a part of the theme, but also a theme of perfectionism where you were really, you were, you were like so many of us, the high performing in it to win it all in Mormon. That creates a lot of amazing humans. But that also might explain a lot of the mental health issues that are prevalent within Utah and within Mormonism. Anxiety, depression, prescription drug abuse, high levels of SSRI use and, and even high, sometimes high rates of suicidality and or suicidal ideation. So I guess I want to close by saying at this point where you get married, you sort of, you serve a mission, you reach in many ways the ideal for a 20 what, three, 24 year old Mormon young woman.
Ally Christiansen [03:11:02] I was 22.
John Dehlin [03:11:03] 22. Like you kind of. You did it okay. You weren't sterling scholar, but like everything else, you, you seminary graduate, faithful graduate from high school, runner up Sterling scholar, valedictorian or co valedictorian, byu, you know, return missionary endowed, married in the temple. You kind of like checked all the main boxes.
Ally Christiansen [03:11:28] I'd peaked.
John Dehlin [03:11:29] You kind of peaked. How were you? Do you. Let's end by just sharing how you were feeling, reaching that peak. Did you reach another point, like with graduating from high school, where maybe you weren't feeling inside what you thought? Or were you in fact feeling like on cloud nine when you hit that peak or something else?
Ally Christiansen [03:11:50] Yeah, well, I was really feeling a lot of fulfillment from my marriage that I kind of hadn't really had that much in my life before. So that felt really, really good. But there was also a sense of like what now? Which is Maybe a bit of foreshadowing for part two.
John Dehlin [03:12:15] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [03:12:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:12:16] Okay. But I mean, it doesn't sound like you hit that point ready to break down, questioning whether you wanted to live. Like, really high levels of anxiety, depression to the point of it becoming perilous for you. It sounds like it was kind of working.
Ally Christiansen [03:12:35] It was working. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess my plan was like, yeah, so we're married. We should probably, like, get signed up for, like, couples counseling because we're gonna need it at some point. Everyone does. So let's just do it now. And I might as well keep going to the counseling center. Well. Cause it's free. It's not any extra above tuition. So I'm just gonna, like, keep working on my mental health and, like, keep helping myself be happy, but, like, just keep doing what we're doing. It's like we were doing it and we just got to keep doing it, and I was feeling really happy about it.
John Dehlin [03:13:12] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:13:13] So you're kind of living the Mormon dream and it was working out for you.
Ally Christiansen [03:13:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:13:16] What could possibly go wrong? Stay tuned. Stay tuned for part two. Right?
Ally Christiansen [03:13:22] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:23] All right.
John Dehlin [03:13:25] All right. Well, that. That ends part one of our interview with Ali Christiansen. And thank you so much for being vulnerable about all of it, but especially around the issues of asexuality, gray sexuality, because I think this is a. This is an area of. Of gross, harmful unawareness. And every time somebody's willing, there's no obligation. But every time someone's willing to be vulnerable and share, it leads to higher levels of awareness and education that can help others maybe not experience the same level of difficulty that their predecessors do or did. So thank you, Ellie. Yeah. And, Margi, thanks for being my co pilot on this one. It's so great to have you.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:14] Thank you, babe.
John Dehlin [03:14:15] This would not be nearly as useful without you, so I love you.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:19] Thanks.
John Dehlin [03:14:20] All right. All right, everyone. So don't go away. Come right back for part two. Whether you're live streaming or just checking. Joining us on the feed letter later. Join us for part two. We're going to find out what happened in. In this amazing marriage. What happened when Ali was kind of living the Mormon slash BYU dream? What could go wrong? Join us for part two, where we're going to be talking about having doubts at byu, maybe even losing your faith at byu, all while you're still climbing that ladder of high performance and perfectionism, and in your case, in the choral or vocal performance area, ultimately singing with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and at the highest performing at the high, highest levels of BYU vocal performance and even starting to do stuff for and with the church. Right?
Ally Christiansen [03:15:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:15:13] And what do you do when all that's happening? Your. Your rise is happening while your faith is kind of declining. Is that right, Ellie? All right, thanks, everyone. We'll see you all soon for part two. Come right back and join us.
Part Two: Rising in BYU Choir and Married Life
Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1634
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am John Dehlin, one of your co hosts for today. It's July 15th, I believe. And again, I am joined for part two of this important interview with Ali Christiansen, co hosting, my amazing partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:00:21] So great to have you.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:22] Thank you. Happy to be back.
John Dehlin [00:00:23] Welcome back for part two.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:24] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:00:25] How was lunch?
Ally Christiansen [00:00:26] Great.
John Dehlin [00:00:29] All right, well, we're here with Ali. Hey, Ali. Welcome back.
Ally Christiansen [00:00:33] Hey.
John Dehlin [00:00:34] We just spent a good, I don't know, 3ish hours talking about your Mormon story. A little bit about your pioneer ancestors, which is normal, but we talked about you growing up in a small town outside of Delta, Utah called Leamington. Leamington.
Ally Christiansen [00:00:47] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:00:48] Where you were a high performing, maybe semi perfectionistic Mormon young woman doing all the things, checking all the boxes, maybe not being fully in tune with yourself, your feelings, your identity, and certainly not feeling comfortable sharing your thoughts and feelings with others through the time of getting into BYU and serving a Mormon mission in north and South Dakota. And where we left off was you coming back from your successful mission, finding someone you fell in love with. His name is Zach. Zach. And getting engaged and married in the temple to Zach, and learning a little bit about sexuality, asexuality, gray sexuality, demisexuality along the way. And that was part one. How does that sound for a summary?
Ally Christiansen [00:01:44] Pretty accurate.
John Dehlin [00:01:45] We do okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:01:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:01:46] All right. So what we're going to be covering for part two is, you know, you're back at byu, you're now married, and you're starting to rise the ranks of, I'll just say vocal performance at byu, where you're auditioning for various choirs, you're getting into various choirs, and you're starting to perform at the highest level of choral performance at byu, which is amongst probably some of the most, as far as undergraduate universities go, some of the highest caliber vocal performance programs in the country. Fair to say.
Ally Christiansen [00:02:22] Yeah, we have really, really good choral faculty. Well, just faculty in general, but really awesome choirs.
John Dehlin [00:02:29] Yeah. And I guess the rub for this part two is going to be addressing an issue that is a lot of BYU students and Mormons are facing in 2022 and beyond, which is what happens if you're a BYU student, you went to BYU as a full believer, you signed the honor code, you're years into your education, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars into your education. And then what happens at BYU if you lose your faith, knowing that oftentimes at byu, historically the consequences have been getting kicked out and losing A couple years, up to a couple years of your education and tens of thousands of dollars as you have to transfer, lose a lot of credits and start over in many instances. Not to mention the familial and social shame of being kicked out of a church school. So that's going to be part two, how you dealt with a change in your faith. Confronted with doubts while a temple married, returned missionary, BYU student. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where should we begin for part two?
Ally Christiansen [00:03:40] Probably the fall of 2019. So that was the first semester that Zach and I were like, both in school together, like a normal school semester when we were married. That was also the first semester that I finally made it into BYU Singers, which.
John Dehlin [00:03:59] Tell people about that.
Ally Christiansen [00:04:00] Yeah, that's a big deal. If we recall from part one, that was kind of like my dream for, like, my life since I was little. So BYU has four auditioned choirs. Three. Sorry, three auditioned, like, kind of classical choirs. There's no, wait, it's four. It's men's chorus, women's chorus, concert choir, and then BYU singers. And it's really hard to get honestly into any of them. There are a lot of amazing singers that never got the opportunity to sing in any of the choirs because there are just so many students who want to do it. So my first two years in byu, before I made it into the program, I was able to get into BYU women's chorus and concert choir. And then my first year as a freshman in. In the voice major. So I was technically a junior that year, but I was a freshman in my major. I was in concert choir. And I had a lovely time with that faculty member, Sister Hall. She's amazing, does really, really great stuff. But it was still my dream to be in BYU Singers, which is the most, like, elite, smallest choir. And they are also the choir that tours. So I was looking, hoping to be able to be, like, a part of the choir when they were doing their next international tour, because they do that like every three or four years. So that was a thing that I thought would be really cool. But I made it through the audition process. I learned all the things I needed to know about how to sing in BYU Choirs because I had sang in them for years at this point. And I made it into BYU Singers. And it was. I mean, the audition, I was just so. It was so scary, but I was so excited and thrilled to finally be in it. And I was like, it was kind of everything that I had ever wanted in life was happening was how it felt.
John Dehlin [00:06:12] So the BYU young woman Mormon dream is Coming true.
Ally Christiansen [00:06:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:06:16] Even more and more.
Ally Christiansen [00:06:17] Yeah. And so I guess at the time I was starting to notice, like. Well, I knew it wasn't a slow noticing I wasn't like the best soprano in the school. There are just lots of really talented people there. And I was by no means the best. So I never really, like, found my niche in wanting to do the operas because if I did them, I would just like be in the chorus, which is actually turns out fun. But at the time, it didn't feel like it was as worth the time commitment as doing choirs. So I just kept wanting to do choirs. So being in BYU singers was really everything I ever imagined, but, like, more. We had a really awesome director and it was really intimidating at first because I felt like it had taken me so long to get in. Plus it had taken me three years of auditioning just to get into the program. So I always kind of felt like I was a little bit behind. Whereas a lot of people are so gifted that they get it right. As freshmen, I was a little bit of a late bloomer, so I felt kind of self conscious about that. But I loved the music. I loved. I don't know. There's very high expectations of, like, learning music really quickly, memorizing quickly so that we could do all the different performances that they would need and all the different competitions throughout the year. And. I guess it was just. I would go and do all my other classes, you know, and sometimes college sucks. But anytime I went to choir, it was just like. It was just what I needed. Yeah. It was also very tied to my faith at that point. You know, it felt like kind of like the hand of God had intervened to finally, like, make this path work out for me since it had been so hard to kind of get things to work. And I had, you know, it felt like almost every day a really meaningful spiritual experience with singing really beautiful music that had. You know, sometimes we did arrangements of hymns that were really touching or just beautiful music in general. And our director really liked to take the time to talk about, like, what does this mean to everyone? So we would kind of have like, spiritual moments. And every week we'd also have time to do devotionals. And I like to do those as often as I could because, I don't know, I loved like, the combination of, like, choral church music with testimony is just like. Like the best thing, you know. Super happy about that. And as the year progressed, I started to notice some things I got into. I got. I went. I was back in BYU counseling, and I had a New counselor that I was working with. And she was I think close to retirement. So very. She knew a lot. She was really smart, really well trained and she recognized pretty quickly that I could use some help learning about self compassion. She recognized I did not have much of that, so we started talking about that. She helped me make meditations that were like personalized to me that I would like listen to to practice being kind to myself. And I started to learn that demanding perfection of yourself all the time is not only unkind, but unreasonable and even impossible. And then I would go to my. I was in a married like kind of building ward at that point, although most of us were young BYU couples. I would then go to church on Sundays and in sacrament meeting people would frequently talk about how much like kind of the Mormon self flagellation thing of like, oh, I'm so terrible. I just, I can never do anything right. I'm not good enough, I need to try harder. And I started to notice that and think I don't like that and that's not great. So that kind of was bugging me. But I was like, well it's probably just like because I'm in Provo, you know, if I, once I graduate, I'll get. People will be a little more woke. It'll be okay. So I kind of, I kept learning about that about myself. And then I, the more I was learning about self compassion, taking time to go to counseling at school and like, you know, working through miscommunications and you know, marriage with my husband. I was realizing too that there were a lot of people around me who were suffering and that it wasn't just me. And that was kind of weird. Like, oh, it's not. I'm not the only one who's like kind of messed up and broken like we all are and like maybe we shouldn't all be so like sad and stressed and depressed. If I thought about it, it started to seem odd. So I was having like, I was noticing that, having some cognitive dissonance around that. So the end of that school year was 2020. So I was at that point kind of like preparing for my, for a recital. And getting ready to sing and kind of do all the things that I was looking forward to with about, about my major. It's, it's exciting to give a recital and also stressful. And I also was super loving BYU singers and that like summer we had stuff planned. Anyway, I was really excited about it and I was also participating in one of my friends choirs. There's a voices there's a group called the Voice for Good. It's like several student composers in Provo, byu, who are composing different things and like, trying to get different oratorios and choirs going. And it's, they're like, it's their job. And I was a part of that. And they were doing a Restoration choir theme because it was like the 200 year anniversary of the first vision, I believe. And I, at first, I was really excited.
John Dehlin [00:14:09] Joseph Smith's first vision?
Ally Christiansen [00:14:10] Yeah. Of Joseph Smith's first vision.
John Dehlin [00:14:11] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:14:12] So at first I was really excited and I got signed up for that and I even convince Zach to do it with me. I've gotten him to do a few music things with me, but, you know, as, as. As time as goes by, he's like realized we are not the same people and he does not have the same interests as me and I can't make him do all the music stuff. And that is okay.
John Dehlin [00:14:32] Margi's naughty.
Ally Christiansen [00:14:33] That's beautiful.
John Dehlin [00:14:35] Differentiation for the win.
Ally Christiansen [00:14:37] Yeah. So we, but we were both doing it, but the rehearsals were pretty demanding and they were asking more and more of like, memorizing and stuff. So after a while, Zach was like, ah, this is too much. I can't do it. But I kept going. But I was feeling more and more uncomfortable with. The themes of, like, Joseph Smith. And I was kind of against my will feeling, recognizing that I felt uncomfortable constantly talking about, like, Joseph Smith and the gospel. And I started to realize I was kind of having doubts. And it was really scary. But I most, I, most of the time would just think like, no, it's, it's nothing, it's fine. I'm just like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Just kind of say, no, it's fine, it's not happening.
John Dehlin [00:15:48] So this is the first time in, in three, three and a half hours where you mentioned doubts at all.
Ally Christiansen [00:15:53] Yeah.
First Cracks in Faith and Progressive Shift
John Dehlin [00:15:55] So can you describe if there were any cracks that had developed or if there was any source of information or. I mean, I guess you mentioned last episode you're older brother and sister both losing their faith while at byu, but that you didn't really. Oh, and your dad having a faith Crisis in the 1980s and you catching him listening to some podcast and feeling angered him.
Ally Christiansen [00:16:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:16:21] But so far you've mentioned nothing about anything that would cause you to question Joseph Smith. So do you want to take us through that a little bit?
Ally Christiansen [00:16:29] Yeah. So that, that's a good clarification. So there was like, nothing that I had learned about Joseph Smith that I was uncomfortable with. But there were. It was a slow amalgamation of noticing, Like. Like, for instance, the people who run the program that I was part of were really gifted, but they were also really overworked. And they were like. It seemed like they were running themselves to the bone in order to, like, fulfill their callings, fulfill their dreams, take care of their families, be students. And it was just like, it felt ugly inside of how much people were sacrificing, Which itself was like. I was like, I'm not supposed to have this feeling. I'm not supposed to feel this way. And then, you know, notice, you know, I. I didn't ever, like, read anything historical. But then I knew that there were, like, students who were, like, gay and they were having a really hard time in school and they were really scared to talk about it. And at this point, Zach kind of came to me when we were, you know, we were at home, and one day he just kind of broke down. And told me that he was really scared, That he'd been having some doubts. And I said, me too. But, you know, we were sure we would get through it because we both knew the gospel was true. But it was just starting to get harder and harder to, you know, do all of the extra things that I was doing. And not only noticing, like, I'm just exhausted and the people around me are exhausted. It just kind of started to wear on me. So I did my junior recital, and then like a week later, that's like
John Dehlin [00:19:34] a big vocal performance. Right. As part of your steps to graduation,
Ally Christiansen [00:19:38] part of your requirements is you have to, like, do a. The junior recital is a joint with another student. You both sing together for an hour, and it went well. But I, you know, I was trying to, like, meditate and stuff, but I still had a lot of anxiety, so that was frustrating. I was just. I was trying on so many levels to, like, kind of heal all my anxiety and like, keep performing and not have any doubts or not, like, notice that things weren't okay everywhere. Where I used to have this, like, very, very rosy colored glasses, I guess, rose tinted glasses. About, like, when I would look around BYU and other people, it seemed like everything was like, perfect and fine. I started to see that it wasn't so much. And I think that year was the year I sing, like, in general conference, which is really cool.
John Dehlin [00:20:41] A solo or in the choir.
Ally Christiansen [00:20:44] Yeah. So once in a blue moon, instead of having the tabernacle choir or just like a local choir, they will have BYU choirs come and sing for a general conference. So you have to get there, like, super early and have everything all ready and make sure you have all the right outfits and things. And we all knew how to put on the right TV makeup. Everything was really very carefully planned. And then, you know, we got to, like, be in there and sing for conference. It was really cool, really neat experience.
John Dehlin [00:21:24] And you're sitting right above the first presidency, the quorum of the 12, right there on the stand in this big auditorium that seats, I don't know, 20,000 people.
Margi Dehlin [00:21:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:34] But, like, pinnacle of Mormon.
Ally Christiansen [00:21:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:36] Spirituality in many ways.
Ally Christiansen [00:21:38] Yeah. It was really, really cool. But also I. There are just, like, a couple times I would notice, like, even, you know, general authority, auxiliary president, apostles say things that I was like. I don't. I don't know if, like, that's a good idea. Like, maybe. Maybe be a little more gentle. Maybe be a little more forgiving to yourself, to others. Maybe expect less perfection.
John Dehlin [00:22:12] So in their talks. Yeah, okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:22:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:22:15] You start noticing that the General Conference talks were kind of almost reinforcing perfectionism within Mormonism.
Ally Christiansen [00:22:24] Yeah. And I started to realize, like, it's not just my ward and it's not just byu. It's, like, coming from the top. That was really uncomfortable because, you know, at that point, I had the habit of. Every morning while I was getting ready, I was, like, listening to the last session of General Conference on my phone. And then, you know, like, that night you, like, study scriptures and write in your journal. But it's really uncomfortable when you hear something and you disagree with it, because I guess at that point I didn't know that was possible to, like, hear something from, like, established scripture, basically, and disagree with it. And I felt, like, so crazy. Yeah,
John Dehlin [00:23:21] because you're not supposed to question or doubt in Mormonism.
Ally Christiansen [00:23:25] No, because, like, the leaders talk to God and they. They know what you need.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:35] So through this time. Are you listening to the meditations from your. I think that's so interesting, this idea of you going in for therapy, for counseling and receiving maybe an insight and a practice. It's like, oh, I notice self compassion. Like you. And here are some things to practice. And then you start. So you have that, and then you start practicing. And then it feels like all of a sudden you have, like, a new way of seeing things around you. And all of a sudden you're seeing it. Oh, it's actually not just me. Oh, look, it's there. Oh, it's also there. I'm experiencing it here in my. Is that how you would describe it?
Ally Christiansen [00:24:24] Yeah. Well, and one of the theme, like, the main theme of like kind of the meditations or self belief ideas we were trying to work on was the idea that I can trust my inner compass. Mm, yeah, I could trust my inner compass. That was one of the phrases that kind of sticks out to me. And it was like the more that I was listening to myself, like the more I was noticing was not okay with, with myself and with the world around me. But I kept being told by like a BYU professional that I was doing the right thing by listening to myself. So I kind of, you know, I knew that there were a lot of, I mean even the faculty that I interacted with, there were. But just BYU in general, I knew there were so many people who had lived in this kind of world and they made it work. So I knew that there was an answer and I knew I just needed to kind of stick with it and figure it out because I, I really, I really trusted. And I really looked up to these people and I knew that they were happy. And. So I really had faith that I could just keep. I would figure it out. And my scripture study got to be a little more about like, less just the standard rehashing stuff from my mission, relearning about baptism, faith, repentance, and getting more into like, where in the scriptures can I find themes of like, self compassion and loving yourself, kindness, of forgiveness, of tolerance. And I just kind of had to like nod every conference talk, maybe listen to on repeat. It's like, you know, that's probably just a message for someone else. They're just in a different place and this is where I am. So I just felt like I was maybe a little more nuanced, maybe a little more aware. And I also thought, I also knew, like culturally that the church over time changed as like people were more informed about things. So I kind of thought maybe I'm just a cutting edge Mormon and I can help kind of lift up the people around me and help them know that, you know, your faith doesn't have to tear you down. So I was, I was doing that for a while and I think it was working for me really well.
John Dehlin [00:27:28] And then the pandemic call this becoming a progressive Mormon. Oh yeah, just. I don't want to put a label on it, but once you realize maybe everything isn't perfect, maybe it's not all healthy for you, maybe there's a more flexible way to approach things. Maybe there's not a one size fit. All that to me, that's kind of becoming less of a fundamentalist, orthodox Mormon, becoming a little Bit more progressive, maybe starting to explore unorthodoxy a little bit. I don't want to put that label on it, but that's what I think of.
Ally Christiansen [00:28:06] Yeah, well. And like that school year, I had wanted to. I wanted a temple working shift. I wasn't able to get it to work with my schedule, so I had, like, decided I was going to volunteer in the laundry department. And it was pretty fun. So I still felt like I was staying involved in important ways. So it didn't feel like anything was slipping. It just felt like I was getting a better understanding of, like, God kind of, and of myself and of how I can. Like, I felt like I was just getting. Becoming more aware of how I could interact with the world in a way that was more sustainable and more godly.
John Dehlin [00:28:52] Nice.
Ally Christiansen [00:28:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:28:54] Okay.
Ally Christiansen [00:28:54] Yeah. And there was a conference talk by elder Holland in 2016, because it was at the end of my mission when I was thinking about how do I go home and how do I keep my faith really strong? Because I was worried about that. And he talked about how the first law of heaven is obedience or something. But then the first. It was like, the first something is obedience, but then the other first something is love. So I thought, I can be obedient, but also like, God is love, and that's like the most important thing. So that the gospel started to mean to me, not just following all the rules and ticking everything off the box, but like, it's. It's most important to love yourself and other people and make sure we're all doing okay. So that's kind of how I. How I made that make sense.
John Dehlin [00:29:57] Yeah. I'm guessing that's the way the church would want all Mormons to be even today, just more compassionate. I mean, more and more over the years, I've heard general authorities try and reduce the emphasis on self criticism, on perfectionism, and to try and encourage a little bit more self compassion. Kindness. Self kindness. So I would even say, yeah, maybe it wasn't right to call that progressivism. Maybe it was just. I like your words better. A compassionate, sustainable sort of approach to religion and Mormonism.
Ally Christiansen [00:30:37] Yeah, it felt. I mean, it was a little bit scary. It was really scary to like, kind of start feeling around my foundations and realizing it wasn't all the way that it had been forever, and maybe it wouldn't be always. I wouldn't always have the same perspective forever. But it felt so, like, obviously, right. You know, when I checked within my own inner compass, it's like, yeah, obviously this is what God would Want. Yeah. So it was sometimes hard, but mostly working, and then school was shut down for the pandemic in. It was like, March 2020. And that was, I mean, its own level of terror. We all kind of lived through that and had our own experiences. It was really scary for the singing student world because at that point, we didn't know everything, but it was starting to say, like, this could be really bad for your lungs.
Pandemic, Choir, and Expanding Perspectives
John Dehlin [00:31:51] Like, choir members across the world were dying after or getting really sick after singing with their choirs.
Ally Christiansen [00:31:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:58] It was almost like, during the pandemic, singing in a choir was potentially the
Ally Christiansen [00:32:03] most dangerous thing you could do, Right?
John Dehlin [00:32:05] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:32:06] So, like, we all had to have choirs shut down, and we were all, like, nervous that we would never, like, are we gonna be able to go back to school in the fall? Are we gonna be able to do choir again? Like, what about. There are a lot of students whose recitals were cancelled, and they had to do them, like, streamed over Facebook in their apartment because you couldn't graduate if you didn't do it. But it's just such a disappointment. I was really lucky. My recital happened, like, a week before school shut down. And that was also a really big summer for Black Lives Matter, at least in my life. That was the summer where George Floyd was murdered. And since I was just kind of at home isolated for quarantining for the pandemic, I was really glued to the news. I think a lot of us were. And I started to realize, like, this is still a problem. This has been a problem for a long time, and it's still a problem in the church, and we're not doing anything about it. And why isn't, like, if. If. If ever there was a case to, like, shake someone on the head if you're God, I feel like, isn't this one of them? Like, you've just got to do it. So that was, like, super frustrating. And I also, you know, I think a lot of us had experiences where we kind of yelled at different people we knew on Facebook, trying to make them see what we saw, and we were so entrenched in what we believe, and they were so entrenched in what they believe, and it just was, like, it really didn't work. And that happened to me a few times. And it was really discouraging to see, like, people who I believed were really, like, good LDS people had such different values and such different perspectives in the world. And then I also just.
John Dehlin [00:34:28] Without ever wanting to get political on Mormon stories, like, because of the history of Ezra Taft Benson and our church Mormons is particularly in Utah, but throughout Mormonism in the United States tend to be Republicans. And, and this is not just true about Mormonism, but also kind of more conservative Christianity, evangelical Christianity, Whatever political religious alliances that started emerging during the Reagan era of the 80s, the more synonymous it became in the United States for conservative religious people to also identify as Republican. So this is taking Mormonism and even partisanship out of it. As, as politics in the United States have become more polarizing and divisive, younger generations that tend to be. Be more liberal or progressive in their politics found themselves more at odds with their religious traditions. And just broadly in the US it's been one of the main reasons cited for the disaffection of younger people from their religious tradition. Is that, is that fair to summarize kind of what you were feeling?
Ally Christiansen [00:35:45] Yeah, I mean, it was definitely not helping. Yeah, definitely did not help.
John Dehlin [00:35:50] Yeah. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:35:52] I also. So I had been serving as the ward choir organ. As the ward organist. So I had like, I took a semester of organ classes so that I would know how because my church had an actual pipe organ, which was super cool. So I, you know, I, I did a semester of classes and I played the organ for my ward and I also was the choir accompanist. And then there was one week that I was at church and sitting in sacrament meeting and they announced that they had called a choir accompanist and they like sustained her. And I was like, what? I had no idea. And so I like talked to the, the choir director. She said she had not been told about it at all. So that was like why I was, I was really like, annoyed. Like, why didn't they at least talk to the choir director before calling someone to this calling which was already filled. So I guess I tell that story to say I was starting to notice patterns of ignoring women in the church. And it was starting to get like, annoying and frustrating. And I thought if they would just sure, like they could make the call themselves. But why didn't they even just talk to her? Like, just so that was really frustrating. One of my siblings came out to me as non binary that summer and I thought that was great. And I was, I had been feeling hopeful that the church was going to be updating. Maybe the family proclamation should be a little more inclusive because I was getting. Ideas about gender maybe being a little more nuanced than I was taught growing up, because that's just what people say is their experience. And you have to trust that.
John Dehlin [00:38:22] So in, in the LDS church, Proclamation on the family. And just within general Mormon discourse. It's male, female, it's man, woman. Gender is eternal, meaning that it exists before we're born into this earth life. It exists in a pre. Pre earth spiritual state. So our spirits exist before we're born on this earth. Our spirits have gender before we come to this earth, and when we die, our spirits continue with gender. And it's binary.
Ally Christiansen [00:38:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:38:56] So you're growing up in Delta, near Delta, in urban Utah, going to BYU, serving a mission. You're 23, 4, 25 years, have been all experiencing a very binary sense for gender identity. What would even. Aside from your sibling coming out to you as non binary, did you start to have an awakening about gender identity expression before your sibling comes out to you, or was that the impetus?
Ally Christiansen [00:39:28] Yeah, well, I think they kind of, in an effort to see, like, how open I would be about things, like a year ago, had suggested I watch this YouTube channel called ContraPoints. I don't know if you've watched Contrapoints. I love her channel. And that is a channel just kind of general, kind of cool philosophy essays. But some of them are about, you know, being transgender and gender experience, as well as other cool topics that are fun to get deep in and talk about. So I was. I had been watching that for like a year, and everything really made sense to me that, that, you know, she said, and that other people who are having different experiences than like the very standard heteronormative cisgender experiences. And I was starting to think. Well, you know, I think. I think. I think a lot of my culture and I think a lot of my religion is just very influenced by cultural values that were around at the time. So we just need an update. Like, it makes sense. Like, okay, this is actually how I made sense of why the Bible didn't talk about evolution. I believed in evolution, and I have been taught by my parents that evolution was real. Like, that for me was never something I worried about, but it made sense to me that when God taught about how he built the earth to early people, that he wouldn't have had all of these, like, intense, like, this is how. How long this was. And it was like billions of years. Like, it's impossible for people to understand DNA and everything. So it's like it can just be a short story and that, like, works to tell the narrative. So I figured, like, in that same way, the way that we were. That people were able to understand, like, the role of men and women or whatever was just kind of what they culturally could conceive of at the time. So I was just kind of waiting for more revelation to update the church's stance on this topic. And I was pretty confident it would happen in that summer. There was. Well, in 2021, I guess there was a church handbook update. Was it 2021 or was it 2020? I think it was 2020.
John Dehlin [00:42:13] It's gonna happen a lot these days,
Ally Christiansen [00:42:15] but I think the one I'm thinking of was 2020.
John Dehlin [00:42:17] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:42:20] And I was. I don't. I don't remember why I was looking, but I ended up, like, going in and reading the update because the handbook at that point was available to public. And I could see all these points where instead of, like, making space to, like, say, allow transgender men to, like, get the priesthood or like, yeah, you can be non binary, whatever and still, like, have a calling, they were instead laying foundation to, like, how to. How to deal with that and not let it happen.
John Dehlin [00:42:58] So, like, discouraging Mormon youth from alternative gender identity expressions from the gender they were assigned at birth.
Ally Christiansen [00:43:09] Yeah. Telling them not to dress differently than what they were assigned at birth. Telling. Putting in the handbook expressly clearly that, like, you should not do surrogate pregnancies because they. I could. It was it. It seemed to me like, oh, they don't want people who both biologically can't conceive a child, like, so like a gay couple, for example, to have a child.
John Dehlin [00:43:38] And also discouraging surgeries. Discouraging surgeries related to gender identity, gender expression, and like, forbidding, I don't know, temple access or even potential threatening disciplinary action for members who undergo full gender identity transition.
Ally Christiansen [00:43:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:00] Either culturally or surgically. Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [00:44:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:05] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:44:06] And I mean, there's probably more. More to it than that, but that's kind of like what I remember. And just being like, really like that is so disappointing and so frustrating. Like, heavenly Father, why would you do this?
John Dehlin [00:44:21] What was frustrating about it, though? Go one level deeper.
Ally Christiansen [00:44:24] What was frustrating? I.
John Dehlin [00:44:26] Why'd you care?
Ally Christiansen [00:44:29] I believed people who say how they feel inside because I was starting to learn to believe what I felt inside. Yeah. Once you pay attention to yourself, you realize my inner world is real and so is yours. And in the same way that no one can tell me how I feel, it's just. You just can't. Right. You can't do that the same way I can't say that to someone else. So that kind of paves the way to say, oh, if you say this is how you feel, like that is how you feel. I have to trust that and there are a lot of people who say that's how they feel.
John Dehlin [00:45:15] So if someone's assigned male at birth, the identity. The gender identity of male at birth, but they come to feel like their gender identity is better expressed as a female or as a woman or as non binary. You're saying you started to say, we need to believe that?
Ally Christiansen [00:45:32] Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't. I didn't. I mean, maybe I was starting to be too crazy. Maybe I was a bad Mormon at this point, but I didn't really see any doctrinal reasons why that wouldn't make sense. Like, sure. Like, Heavenly Father makes all of us, like, really unique and special. And why wouldn't. Why wouldn't it be that way? Like, there's a place for all of us in every way, and we all need to feel loved. And God wouldn't make you this way on accident, you know, that's how it made sense to me. So realizing that. That change that I was expecting to happen, I was expecting in the same way that, like, as we culturally learn more things and understand more things, like, changes happen, I thought that would happen, but it wasn't happening the way that I thought it should be. And I knew that I was not anyone. I was like, I'm. I'm just a person. I'm nothing, like, crazy special. So, like, the fact that just, like, random people are noticing this and being upset with it means, like, it's probably time for it to be happening. Right. I also took a philosophy class, byu, that summer.
John Dehlin [00:47:04] Oops.
Ally Christiansen [00:47:06] Because it was a general that I still had a few generals left. And we talked about the problem of evil and how,
John Dehlin [00:47:18] like,
Ally Christiansen [00:47:20] how some people think the existence of bad in the world disproves the existence of God, or at least the existence of a loving God. And that I kind of realized, like, yeah, I'm kind of having that question right now. And they actually did have some, like, arguments written by different BYU professors or other Mormon theologists, but nothing they said, like, made sense to me.
John Dehlin [00:47:50] So if I'm understanding it right. So the. It's. It's. If God's all powerful and all loving, then why is there suffering in the world?
Margi Dehlin [00:48:01] Mm.
John Dehlin [00:48:02] Either God's not all loving or not all powerful.
Ally Christiansen [00:48:06] Right.
John Dehlin [00:48:06] Is that.
Ally Christiansen [00:48:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:07] The dilemma?
Ally Christiansen [00:48:08] Yeah. And kind of, like the. The understanding that used to make sense to me was like, well, we all have to have agency. So, like, we can choose to do bad things in this world or the neck, whatever, and we'll be punished later. But just, like, the system of that started to like, well, why. Why would. Why would it be set up that way in the first place? And I realized it all kind of that argument at least hinged on just saying agency is really important. But I was like, is it really so important to, like, have to suffer and go through turmoil? I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:48:48] It's one thing when it's kind of suburban middle class angst, but when you start looking at the type of suffering, experienced more severe suffering here and elsewhere, but definitely in developing countries, war, poverty, famine, it starts to stretch for some credulity. Credulity, yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:49:10] And I don't know if this was when the leak happened, but this was when I was became aware of how much money that the church had. And I. I was pretty flabbergasted that they weren't doing anything with that money. Like, I could just think, like, there's even just. Salt Lake City has so many people who are homeless and need help, and if I could help, I would. I can't really do anything, but certainly if I had $100 billion, I could fix that. Like, I could even just build a super fancy hotel and just like, come live here. Like something. I would do something.
John Dehlin [00:50:00] I just. Grow your. Grow your investments.
Ally Christiansen [00:50:02] Yeah. I mean, sure, you can leave enough in there that it grows, but I'm sure there's a little bit that you can use to save people.
John Dehlin [00:50:11] And what we know now is that the only two things the church has done with that money from Ensign Peak is build a commercial shopping mall, City Creek, and bail out a failed insurance company. And to this date, none of that 100, 150 billion dollar investment fund has been used for any charitable purpose at all.
Ally Christiansen [00:50:31] Yeah. And in fact, like, a lot of that money has been used for legislation that harms a lot of people too.
John Dehlin [00:50:44] Like the church using its money to lobby against the LGBTQ community. As an example.
Ally Christiansen [00:50:49] As an example, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] Anti trans legislation.
Ally Christiansen [00:50:52] Yeah. And it was at this point that I was kind of becoming aware of my blindness in the past to these issues. You know, I was on my mission when they. When they made the change of, oh, children of parents who are in gay relationships can't be baptized. And then they switched it. And at the time I was like, I don't really care. I trust the prophet. They're doing what's right. And then I was starting to feel, like, really, like, embarrassed and guilty about, like, having been so blind at the time. And I started to realize, like, that hurt a lot of people.
John Dehlin [00:51:36] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:51:37] Yeah. So, yeah, just I think that summer was Hard for a lot of people.
John Dehlin [00:51:48] Tell me if it's also true. If it's during COVID now you're not attending church, Right?
Ally Christiansen [00:51:53] Right. I was not attending church. So for a while there just wasn't church. And then they started doing it on Zoom, but it was still pretty different. So there were several weeks there in the summer that I just didn't go to church at all. And I was either able to kind of just forget all of these issues that were like, driving me so crazy or have the time to like, kind of feel through it without having to like, put everything on hold because. No, I just need to put. I just need to put a smile on and go to church. Yeah. So that summer I thought I should probably get actual therapy. Like free BYU counseling is cool. But I think I want like a trained therapist.
John Dehlin [00:52:46] Well, to be clear, therapists at CAPS at BYU are.
Ally Christiansen [00:52:51] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:52] Largely PhD level psychologists.
Ally Christiansen [00:52:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:55] So I don't want to give the impression that those aren't real therapists, but maybe. Do you mean a therapist not identified with a religious run institution?
Ally Christiansen [00:53:06] Oh, that, that's a good clarification. I didn't mind that they were in with byu, but it was like, seemed like they, they do more of talk therapy and I wanted to do a specific kind of therapy. I, I wanted to do like dbt and maybe I was interested in EMDR because my, my siblings had been really liking that. And that's just not available at caps.
John Dehlin [00:53:28] So maybe more clinical psychology treatments.
Ally Christiansen [00:53:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:33] From a clinical psychology perspective instead of more counseling psychology.
Ally Christiansen [00:53:37] Right. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:38] That's associated with talk therapy. So you do EMDR or exposure therapy or other types of things to treat, you know, chronic depression or chronic anxiety or severe anxiety or depression. And I'm, I'm sure all the BYU CAP psychologists are trained, but it probably sounds like because there's such a large university, so many students in need, they probably offer some general counseling psychology kind of services.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:07] I'll probably refer externally.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:10] To the more severe clinical cases. Is that fair? I'm not trying to.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:14] Yeah, no, thanks for that clarification because you know all of the terminology and I don't want to like.
John Dehlin [00:54:21] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:22] Not give BYU the credit that they deserve. Right.
John Dehlin [00:54:24] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:25] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:26] So you're seeking, you want to, you start seeking clinical psychology.
Ally Christiansen [00:54:28] Yeah, I wanted to have like, I guess that's the right, the right term, clinical psychology, because it seemed like what I was doing at BYU was nice, but it didn't seem to be like fixing anything. Yeah. So at that point I Was able to find like a DBT therapist. And so we would work on, I don't know if this is super relevant, like, practicing mindfulness and practicing acceptance of how you feel right now. You know, it's like, it's okay. How I feel is how I feel. And it's like, okay, you know. But I also kind of in the back of my mind was, I also need help with my faith crisis because it's freaking me out. And it'd be nice to have a therapist.
John Dehlin [00:55:13] Just a tiny bit of psychoeducation. DBT stands for dialectical behavioral therapy. It's considered kind of a third or fourth generation form of cognitive behavioral therapy. A lot like another form that I was trained in as well, called acceptance commitment therapy. But these are forms of cognitive behavioral therapy that merge mindfulness techniques and meditation into traditional cognitive behavioral therapy. And in the case of dbt, it was developed for clients with borderline personality disorder. But it turns out it's just great skills to learn to understand your emotions, to regulate your emotions, to do what's called distress tolerance regulation, where you learn how to manage your emotions when you're really, really, you know, distressed psychologically. And just basic mindfulness skills, meditation, really solid stuff. Everyone in the world would benefit from dbt, not just people who need clinical psychology support, Just basic life skills for mental health. And I would say acceptance commitment therapy is. Is very similar. It's. So I'm just for those who are seeking additional support. I wanted to spell out some of those acronyms so that people could get the help they need.
Ally Christiansen [00:56:31] So anyway, yeah, thanks. Yeah, yeah. It felt. Felt really good to take care of myself in this way because seeing like, kind of the way that I grew up and the information that was available around me seemed like I needed like a heavy course in like, what to do when you have feelings. And that's kind of what DBT did for me, was help me figure out, like, oh, I. I'm angry, but that's okay. It just means, like, something doesn't seem right. That's all. It's not bad to be angry. But again, going back to my, my, like, kind of things that I was noticing about my faith was. I was noticed, starting to notice this pattern of what I felt to be the Holy ghost was typically like kind of warnings or like the things that I. When I felt scared, I was like, oh, that's the holy ghost telling me not to do that. And then when I felt like when I felt the spirit, like, positively, not as a warning, as a comforter, it was like moments of feeling love. But I started to realize that when I felt scared of stuff that didn't mean really anything besides that, I just felt scared. And it was just my anxiety disorder or even just normal feelings. And I thought, oh, no. Like, well, what if this is, like, if my feelings. Like, okay, I guess I learned wrong about what my feelings are because they're not all the Holy Ghost. And every time I feel good, that's because I'm, like, taking care of myself and respecting my own boundaries and my needs and doing things that are nice, you know, singing good music. So that fall, we went back to school, and our faculty was amazing, and they did a ton of research and they figured out how many air purifiers we had to have in all the rooms to have the right amount of circulation and the kind of masks we needed to wear. And we were like, the only school that went back, like, kind of to normal at all that semester. And I was in the presidency and BYU singers. So I was kind of helping, getting everything going. But as I got back into things and I started singing. The same music, the feeling was totally different. Because I was learning that. It was beautiful music. And I started to think that's all it was. And my whole life. Had led me to music as a way to access God. And it was gone. And everyone around me, it felt like. I felt like they were behind a curtain almost. They used to be all my closest friends. And it used to be the most special sacred experience when we sang together. But now every time we sang something beautiful, I just felt so lonely. And so scared that what if. What if everything I ever knew about myself in the world was a lie?
John Dehlin [01:02:07] Because we're taught from a very young age, if you have a positive feeling, that's the Holy Ghost, and that means the church is true. And if you have a negative feeling, like a doubt or a question or anger or sadness, don't do that. Don't have that feeling that's not righteous or that's contentious of the devil, or you're not. You're. You're not being faithful if you have negative feelings. So we're taught to distrust and dislike and push away negative emotion when really it. It serves an important mental health function. Negative emotions are actually important, but we're taught to suppress those and push them away. Thought that they're bad and. And literally products of evil spirits, frankly. And then all positive emotion just means the church is true.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:02:57] And that's. Your whole life had been built on that understanding of your own emotional profile.
Ally Christiansen [01:03:03] Yeah. Yeah. And I know, you know, not everyone is so black and white as this, but I was. And it was really, really, really scary to have to face that.
John Dehlin [01:03:18] So the alternative is if. If positive emotions aren't manifestations of the Holy Ghost, then what are they?
Ally Christiansen [01:03:27] It was just me. It's just something that felt good. And, you know, I started to realize, like, when I feel angry about something that I noticed that's happening at byu, it's not Satan. It's something that's wrong. And often something that's really wrong. But the problem was, at this point, I had a very specific reputation with my friends, and I was close to a lot of faculty, and I, you know, I. I still thought I would make it, but I felt really lonely, and I. I knew I needed to talk to someone. I thought it would help a lot. I knew there were, you know, I knew there must be even just. If I could just talk to my professors. I'm sure they had dealt with the same thing, but I was so scared of telling the wrong person and being reported. By this point, I had kind of been sharing with my siblings who had lost their faith while they were at byu, like, all my ups and downs, and I was able to be really open and honest with them. And I could also share with Zach, thankfully. I'm so grateful we kind of fell all this together. But I. I didn't dare tell anyone else because my siblings had been kind of ratted out by just a random person and had really horrible experiences. Almost kicked out of byu. One of them ended up just dropping out because it was so terrible. And that situation is still kind of unresolved. And they, you know, kind of shared with me they had friends who had, you know, been kicked out, lost their housing, lost everything. And, you know, I still thought I was going to be able to make it work, so I was scared to lose it all, you know, So I just didn't tell anyone.
Keeping Doubts Secret and Faith Unraveling
John Dehlin [01:06:33] So what does that do to you when you just keep something like that inside and you're so afraid?
Ally Christiansen [01:06:40] I just shrank.
John Dehlin [01:06:44] You shrink?
Ally Christiansen [01:06:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:06:46] What do you mean?
Ally Christiansen [01:06:47] I. Before. Before I had this kind of conflict inside. I used to be. So excited about not just the gospel, but also about music. And I had a really cool job as a music history TA and just a lot of things. I had a lot of excitement about life and people I liked to talk to, friends, things I was interested in, you know, goals and things. But I just. It just felt like it wasn't safe to do anything or to talk to anyone. So I kind of just closed everything off. I kept it all inside. And I would. I had to. When I was around anyone at school or kind of just anyone at all who didn't know, I had to pretend that everything was fine because I didn't want them to know that it wasn't. Or they could. I could maybe say, like, oh, I'm just having a lot of anxiety right now. It's hard, but it was a lie. And that doing that every day over and over, having to lie to your friends, It's so lonely. I really wish. I really wish it could have been safe for me to talk to everyone that I wanted to. And I really wish it would be safe for everyone who goes through this to be able to talk to people, because I don't think the isolation made it any more likely for me to go through with my faith intact.
John Dehlin [01:09:27] Isolation didn't help anyone, the church included.
Ally Christiansen [01:09:34] So, yeah, that year, I mean, I'll just.
John Dehlin [01:09:39] Thank you. That was so beautiful. And I think Margi and I are both feeling for you. I think if I'm wondering what's going on with byu, it's that they view doubt as a virus, like Covid, and that if students are allowed to talk about their doubts, the virus will just spread like the pandemic, and everyone's going to get infected. So they'd rather people, unfortunately, suffer in silence. It's kind of like the Book of Mormon saying, it's better that one man perish than an entire nation dwindled in unbelief. I'm sure the church feels like it's better that Ally suffer and that the entire BYU student body dwindle in unbelief.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:23] One thing that really sticks out to me is just, oh, the sudden. It's almost like the. I don't know what to compare it to, but you have this internal shift, you know? But your experience, where you experience joy, this tremendous joy and belonging, you know, and connectedness with. With this group of people, it was like almost like elation. I could feel your elation as you were talking about what it meant to you and what you felt and all that. You have this internal shift. Go on. No one can see, right? And it's like pain. It's like the opposite. You go from experiencing that to this absolute isolation, pain, loss where there once was, you know, joy. You're in this place of, like, mourning because now you no longer have access to those same. You know what I mean? And it's just how it flipped. And as deeply as you felt the joy at One point you're now in a place of tremendous suffering, you know?
Ally Christiansen [01:11:42] You know, I just like, the more happens, the more it piles on and you realize, like, I'm not the only student this has happened to. Like, I personally know people who this has happened to. The. The honor code reversal happened that spring
John Dehlin [01:12:03] or BYU said that gay people could hold hands or dates and then took it back, right?
Ally Christiansen [01:12:08] Yeah. And I was so, like, I was so sad about that, but I was. I was so scared. I wanted to get involved, but I was so scared of being called into question. I can remember, like sitting in the office that I worked in the music building and looking out the window,
Margi Dehlin [01:12:39] See,
Ally Christiansen [01:12:42] seeing the students, you know, wearing the flags and marching rainbow flags to show
John Dehlin [01:12:52] support for LGBT BYU students.
Ally Christiansen [01:12:55] Just like wishing I could be there, but being so scared. I also was part of a concert, Lamb of God thing I wanted to get into. There are probably a lot of LDS listeners who know about Rob Gardner's Lamb of God. For those who don't know, it's a modern day sort of oratorio telling the story of Jesus Christ's like, crucifixion and resurrection. And it's got a lot of. It's got an orchestra and a chorus and different soloists who are different characters throughout the story. And Rob Gardner, I don't know if he's a BYU alumni, but he's a very prominent LDS composer. And he was wanting to like 20, 19, 2020, do a, like, film, a whole, like, concert, the whole concert, so he could have it on DVD and put it in theaters because the last recording they'd done had been a while ago. And so since I was in BYU singers and I was in the presidency, I had the opportunity to be a part of that as well as several other members of the choir. And so it was kind of like, like higher than I had even dreamed of. An experience that I would have while I was at byu. You know, I wasn't just like getting to sing in general conference every now and then. Like here I was having a professional opportunity to work with like church related choral music, which is like my dream. But while I was getting signed up, I was just kind of feeling like dread and worry about it. And then when we were there singing the music and filming, there was just like a disconnect. I couldn't like, fall apart because, you know, I had to be able to sing. I was like, why this music about, like Jesus in Gethsemane? Why doesn't it feel. The way it used to? And the other students around Me, you know, were having the experience of a lifetime and I was just trying to get through it. And I had a few opportunities to sing in BYU devotionals as a soloist, which you don't get to do until you're a senior or even a grad student. So it's really an, you know, privilege to be picked by the faculty to get to do this. Usually don't have a lot of notice, and I certainly did not. You have to be ready with a song to just go. But it just felt so empty and so anticlimactic. It was something I looked forward to for so long and I just wanted it to be over. Career wise. At this point, I was starting to think I really did want to make performing work. And I was realizing I didn't do enough opera productions when I was a younger student because I had kind of waited till the last two years to do them. So I thought it would be really smart to stay around for another year and do another opera as well as take acting classes, since it's kind of a given that you have to be able to act to be a performer. And I had not really had any good acting classes or much acting experience, so I thought that would be really helpful for grad school and on. I had also been emailing faculty who teach like music recording and electronic music type courses that aren't typically given to classical singers. But I thought these are things that would be really good for me to know and I want to. I think I'm going to stick around another year, so let me see if I can take these classes. And they did actually, like, make the exception that they were going to let me take the classes. So I was getting everything lined up to have another year of just like really working on my skills. I knew it was going to be hard, but it seemed like the right thing to do for my job. There was one day in February. I think I have it written down. I'd want to read it if I do.
John Dehlin [01:18:43] Is that February of this year?
Ally Christiansen [01:18:45] February of 2021.
John Dehlin [01:18:46] Okay. Last year?
Ally Christiansen [01:18:48] Yeah. Let's see.
John Dehlin [01:18:56] While she's looking. Margi, I'm wondering if you have any reflections on what you've heard so far, especially as Ali reflects on kind of reaching the pinnacle of her vocal performance and just feeling so empty inside.
Leaving the Church and Navigating the Transition
Margi Dehlin [01:19:11] Yeah. One thing that I was thinking about was just the. Which is so common when we think about how faith transitions work and sometimes transitions in general. I mean, life is filled with transitions, but it's just that moment where it's like the dis Dissolution of meaning. The things that once brought you meaning, the things that you once kind of strived for no longer provide that meaning anymore. And so you're showing up kind of in an old in your life, but you're. You're new or you're not the same. And it can feel so completely disorienting to be back in. It almost feels like an old life because you are new in it. And it feels so empty and it feels so. And it can just feel tremendously. I really relate to. It can feel tremendously disorienting and heavy and dark and just full of loss.
John Dehlin [01:20:25] For some reason, I'm reminded of the saying that Christ had putting new wine into old bottles.
Ally Christiansen [01:20:31] Yeah. Yeah. So I, at this point, kind of stopped reading my scriptures and I stopped listening to conference. I even didn't tried not to pray, but it wasn't the reason that I thought that when this happens to people, you know, I thought if you stop doing everything, you'll lose your faith. But what it was, was every time I interact with something from the church, it like hurts my faith. So I can only hold on by like keeping myself as far away as possible.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:21] That's such a good point.
Ally Christiansen [01:21:22] Yeah. There was a day in February. It's February 11th. So kind of the middle of the semester, I guess. Early beginning, middle of 2021. I was walking. I can remember walking in my apartment. I walked from my bedroom through the doorway into the living room. And I just like. It just hit my body. It was like a spiritual. It was as though I had been told by the Holy Ghost. But it was just like the strongest knowledge within my body that I can't do this anymore. And that there is like. It's not a question. I don't believe in God anymore. And I need. I need to graduate or I'm not gonna make it. And I went in my room and I cried. And I told zach. I think at that point he kind of come to the same conclusion. This is what I wrote in my journal. It still is a little bit. Trying to make it sound like things were okay. I was still not 100% honest with myself, I think, but this is what I said. I didn't feel like writing about this process, but I'm leaving the LDS Church, probably also graduating this summer instead of next like I had planned. It's hard to accept not having another year of choir. I think I need to put myself first, though. Question mark. I'm past at least the first wave of feeling really sad and distressed about it. And I really look forward to not having to pretend anymore. I feel really lucky that Zach and I are on the same page. It's scary to lose my social structure. I really lack confidence with making friends and feeling valuable in that way. I think this will be hard and stretching. I'm hopeful that I will grow and maybe feel good in the long run. So at that point, I had not listened to any podcasts or looked at the CES letter.
John Dehlin [01:24:32] What's most notable to me and Margi, I'm sure you'll feel similarly is you were listening to yourself.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:39] Yeah. That does feel like a moment of you're throwing a life preserver to yourself. From you to you.
Ally Christiansen [01:24:53] Yeah. Luckily, I had already kind of planned through my classes than I was that semester, finishing up the classes I needed to graduate.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:08] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:25:10] So I was just. At that point, I did start listening podcasts because I thought, well, this is how I feel and I can't go back for it, so I'm. I'd better darn sure be right. So I started going on ex Mormon Reddit, and I felt a lot of community there, and I started listening to Mormon stories podcasts someone recommended to me, a cousin.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:50] Those cousins.
Ally Christiansen [01:25:52] Yeah. The one I remember, the first one I remember, like, really, really resonating with was Gretchen Day. Her interview,
John Dehlin [01:26:05] that's about perfectionism.
Ally Christiansen [01:26:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:07] It's about a Mormon housewife, ton of kids, raising them all in Utah county in it to win it. I can see why that would resonate with you.
Ally Christiansen [01:26:17] Yeah. I listened to RFM's investigation of the MTC sex scandal, which I don't know. That is just one example of many, many things that I did not know. Just, it seems like there seems like every week I learn of just another atrocity that has either been, like, committed and swept under the rug or just never even acknowledged if it's kind of public knowledge. There have been so many things that I've learned that have happened throughout the history of the church that made me feel really sick and gross about things. Made me feel like. Yeah, I think. I think my inner sense is right.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:10] So as you listened, it sounds like the more you listened, the more you actually felt affirmed.
Ally Christiansen [01:27:19] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:19] Is that right?
Ally Christiansen [01:27:20] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:20] And that your voice actually.
Ally Christiansen [01:27:22] Yeah, it was like I kind of had reached the point where I knew, like, it would be pretty much of a miracle for me to ever have faith again in anything. I actually started to feel really sad about nihilism and having to cope with. My marriage is not eternal, and when we die, we die
John Dehlin [01:27:50] really quickly. Just a couple questions. The first is you said you needed to leave BYU in the church or you wouldn't make it, I believe was the words you use. Do you mind being explicit about what you meant by not making it? Just because sometimes I think people underestimate how significant a faith crisis can. Can be.
Ally Christiansen [01:28:15] Yeah. So at that point, I was not having any, like, strong suicidal ideation, but I was starting to get really, really depressed. I was normally a pretty good student. If I didn't have all straight A's, I usually, you know, went to all my classes and things. I was only taking six credits this semester, which was. I was in, like, two or three classes. And one of them was, like, it wasn't a class. It was just me practicing for my recital. And I spent most of my time on the couch. And if, you know, if I wasn't just, like, dragging myself to do my homework, which was hardly any, but it was so hard to do, I was on ex Mormon Reddit, trying to feel less alone or sleeping.
John Dehlin [01:29:15] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:29:16] And I could tell, like, if I. If I keep trying to do this, it's gonna get really bad.
John Dehlin [01:29:28] Your body was kind of shutting down. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:32] And there's that sense of, like, withdrawing from life, like, getting further and further away.
Ally Christiansen [01:29:38] Yeah. And I think I. I don't know. I think I could tell, like, I'm damaging not only myself, but my relation, like, any possibility of me still being involved with music. And I really was hopeful that I would be able to, like, keep that. So I was really scared of losing that, too.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:06] That so makes sense, because it. It feels like to me at this point is like, music is still life, you know, to you, and purpose.
Ally Christiansen [01:30:16] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:17] So you intuitively kind of realizing, if I mess with those, we're going to go down to the.
Ally Christiansen [01:30:25] It'll be the roots. It'll be nothing.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:30:30] Yeah. The other thing I just wanted to make sure we got clarity on. A lot of times people want to blame, let's just say mere Mormon Stories or even Jeremy Runnels or the CES letter or RFM or Bill Real or the Church Essays for the Faith Crisis or whatever. And that's fine. People are going to blame. Whatever they're going to blame. But as far as Mormon Stories podcast goes, just so that people can have an understanding of how it works. My understanding is people usually don't lose their faith from a podcast like Mormon Stories. They lose their faith from the lived Mormon experience. Then they're open to whatever resources they can find to help them process it. And when they come to someone someplace like Mormon Stories, it's to, like, you say, not feel crazy, not feel alone, get validated and help them process their emotions after their faith had already been lost. Is that. Am I getting that right or not?
Ally Christiansen [01:31:42] Totally. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:43] Again, not to, like, say don't blame me, or to make it about, but it just. So people understand the function of what these stories, the role these stories play.
Ally Christiansen [01:31:52] Yeah, the. Yeah. I mean, this podcast is, I mean, very, very kind towards the church. There are some that are less kind, and I appreciate both. I think both are needed, but it's. The reason that they exist is because when you. I don't know, when you lose your whole sense of, like, everything that I thought was real or the way that I thought about life and the goals that I had, the way that I interacted with people, the things that are important, like, it all shifts, and you feel really alone. And it's super helpful to even just listen to someone who's felt the same way. Even if, you know, like, me, you're a BYU student, you can't tell anyone because someone could tell your bishop. You could get kicked out of school. So it wasn't safe for me yet to, like, talk to anyone, but I could, like, listen to someone else who felt the same and know, okay, right now it hurts a lot, and it feels really lonely, but someone else has felt this way, too.
John Dehlin [01:33:30] It's particularly helpful when you feel alone at BYU and you feel like you can't talk to anybody because it's not safe.
Ally Christiansen [01:33:37] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] It kind of reminds me of, like, being in a. I can, you know, being in a dark room by yourself. And then when you're listening to, you know, the interviews of other people, they join you, and then slowly your room starts filling up with, you know. So it's not just you.
Ally Christiansen [01:33:58] Yeah, I can't. I mean, I can't say how many times I've listened to someone's story on this podcast and just cried with them, you know, Two months later, two years later, just feeling so seen, as well as feeling like, I see them, this has been really healing for me.
John Dehlin [01:34:24] Now that's what you're offering others.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:26] You may be joining someone in their dark room.
Ally Christiansen [01:34:30] Well, I could tell you it's gonna be okay.
John Dehlin [01:34:34] She broke the fourth wall.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:36] There it is.
John Dehlin [01:34:39] She's like, where do I look at you or the camera? Depends if you want to break the fourth wall. You broke it.
Ally Christiansen [01:34:45] I broke it. Yeah. So at this point, choir just became rather unbearable. And I still had to do my senior recital, which it was getting to the point where I could Barely get myself to practice at all. So, fortunately, I had kind of already figured out all of my repertoire for my recital and kind of had stuff mostly memorized. There was one choir song that I wanted to kind of get into a little bit. For my last BYU singers concert ever. We did a group of hymns as well as arrangements by BYU composers who were, like, alumni or professors there. And at this point, I had gone to. I don't want to say who it. Who it was, because I don't want to get them in trouble. But I had talked to a BYU faculty member, hadn't really said what had happened, but I said, you know, I realize I'm not going to be able to be at BYU anymore because of philosophical reasons. Cried a little bit. I think they got it. And I said, well, do you think I'll be okay if I. You know, I had these plans to take all these extra courses to kind of build up my skills to help me be more competitive. Do you think I'll be okay? And they said, yes, I think you'll be okay. Like, go ahead and graduate. Take care of yourself. So I was able to at least have that one interaction, which is really awesome. But, yeah, so I had sort of. Sort of one safe person, at least at school. But there was this concert, and there was this one song that was really hard to sing. I mean, we were singing if There's Sunshine in My Soul Today, which used to be one of my favorite hymns. And at that point in time, and still right now is really painful because it's kind of all of my toxic perfectionism put into a song. Yeah, so that was in the program. And then this song with the text is kind of like a. A weird modern song. So you can't look up a recording. I don't think there's one, but I'll just read the lyrics. O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed? How could ye have rejected that Jesus who stood with open arms to receive you? Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, O ye fair ones. Sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, husbands and wives. Ye, fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen? But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. So there I was on stage, Surrounded
Margi Dehlin [01:38:46] by,
Ally Christiansen [01:38:49] I suppose, believing fellow students. I mean, we couldn't really talk about it with each other. I was singing about how it was my fault that I had lost my faith and I was lost forever. And when we were in class the next day, listening to the recordings of the Concert. I. That song turned on and I just started crying and I just got up and left.
John Dehlin [01:39:31] What was that second hymn called?
Ally Christiansen [01:39:35] This one? Yeah, it was. It was a text from the Book of Mormon, I think. Mormon 6, oh, ye fair ones. It's written by Christian Aspland, who is, side note, a really cool composer. It was not a great song for me to sing at the time.
John Dehlin [01:39:58] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [01:40:01] And, I mean, this is the kind of messaging that's really common at byu. You don't have to be in the choirs to be hearing this. It's in the devotionals. It's in the classrooms. You know, most. Most classes, there's a prayer beforehand. If you're called on and you. You aren't comfortable, what do you do? Like, do you say no and draw attention to yourself? Or if there's. There's a gospel discussion happening or people are trying to have, like, a institute thing and they want you to come? It's, like, so ingrained into every aspect of life. You can't get away from it. There was a little bit of, like, kind of speaking up that I did do while I was there. I. Was becoming quite the feminist, or at least having a bit of, like, maybe feeling like there was so much going on that I couldn't do anything about, but that felt like sort of a safe way I could push back a little bit. So I ended up meeting with one of my music history professors and saying, like, hey, I just took, like, the final semester of music history, which is supposed to cover modern composers, and there were only two songs by women out of. Out of, like, 50, maybe. And I had noticed, like, okay, throughout all the other course, all the previous centuries that we studied, I know there. There were a lot of women who were composing, but it kind of makes sense. Like, I could see the academic reasoning why, like, well, we're going to be expected to, like, know Mozart and Bach and Brahms and Beethoven, Debussy. Like, it's hard to get along if you don't know all these people and if you give a lot of extra stuff to study. Like, I could see why they wouldn't take the time to, like, find obscure female composers for us to learn. But I was like, why aren't we learning? Like, people who are composing today, 50 years ago, are relevant to our careers. And the answer I got was, they said, you're not wrong, but it's too much work for me to figure it out, so I just don't do it. I was like, oh, that's. I guess, okay,
John Dehlin [01:43:04] you about to swear.
Ally Christiansen [01:43:09] Maybe. Yeah, There is definitely, besides just the music history, you know, everyone at BYU in the music school, although most of the students are women, the people who get opportunities, who are, you know, when we sing works composed by students or, you know, a lot of the grad students are men because culturally we know it is the man's job to take care of his family. So anytime there's a man studying music, it's very risky because they need to be able to make a lot of money. So it behooves the school to give them all the opportunities so they can do well with their career. And I never got to see representation of women being either historically or in the present, given opportunities outside of being hired to teach voice lessons. And that really bothered me. So I actually was able to arrange my senior recital to be kind of a mini music history lesson. And I were required to sing music through a certain, like, lots of different time periods to show we've kind of learned different styles. So I made it a point to look through and find, like, more than half of my music be by women. And that was really cool. And I also. They sent out. They were sending out surveys that year, the School of Music, about how the school was doing with race and inclusiveness. And they had a little thing to fill out and a way to comment for feedback. And I commented and said, I really care about how this is doing and I'd love to talk to you. So I was able to talk to kind of an upper level school admin and tell them my frustrations with at least the lack of diversity. The programs there weren't, as far as I was aware, ever in my time at byu, any black students in my program, for example. And I thought that was wild because I know there are a lot of Mormons who love to sing. So I got to work as a kind of research assistant to help them
Margi Dehlin [01:46:04] record
Ally Christiansen [01:46:08] school information, like kind of put data in for them to be able to make changes. So that felt really good to speak up, at least in those ways. And for my recital, I. I mean, I was able to have some people come in person. At that point, they were letting you bring like 20, have like 20 guests. So I got through my music. My last few pieces were Emily Dickinson poems about her thoughts on death. Because I had just kind of been interested in her music early on. But I thought it was really fitting for Faith Crisis. So that was kind of a healing experience. Even though no one else really knew what I was singing about, I knew what I was singing about. And I made it to graduation and Graduated? Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:47:24] How did that feel?
Ally Christiansen [01:47:28] Like, skin in my teeth felt. I don't know. I thought it would feel way more relieving than it did, you know, in some ways it was like, oh, finally I can relax a little bit. And I can kind of start now to figure out, like, where am I and how do I feel about all these things that I've just been having to do? Like, do I want to still do them all? I think I did try coffee, like, a week before I graduated because it was kind of spontaneous, all the other rules I kept, but I was able to kind of start figuring that out, which felt really good. I never really. You could probably guess, had a rebellious teenage face. So it felt like I was finally like, oh, I could. Like, I could try different clothes, and I could do all these things that I thought were evil, but I now think they're okay, probably. And, like, I can decide for myself what I think. So that was really liberating.
Life After BYU, Resignation, and Moving Forward
John Dehlin [01:48:36] Can I ask you a few questions just to close out your BYU experience?
Ally Christiansen [01:48:39] Is that okay?
John Dehlin [01:48:41] So I think I have at least three or four questions. So first is. And this is the dumbest question of all, but it's one that orthodox Mormons are going to put on you, which is common whenever the news is leaked about a BYU student that gets kicked out or whatever, or a student that's saying, this isn't fair, the way that my education is jeopardized because I lost my faith. The common answer from an orthodox member is, you sign the honor code. You knew what you were getting into before you signed the honor code. So then once you lost your faith while you were at byu, the only thing to do as an act of integrity is to resign, to leave the school, but to continue and pretend in the worst case, hide or lie or break the honor code, potentially, while you, you know, remain a student, you're taking the place of other students, and you're even benefiting from a tuition discount, all while you're failing to live up to the honor code that you signed up for when you started. That's one huge act of dishonesty and a lack of integrity. You should have just resigned the minute that you knew you didn't believe anymore. That's an extreme case, but there are people with variations on that position that it's on you. You knew what you were signing up for. So no crocodile tears for you. What do you. Do you have a response to that sort of position?
Ally Christiansen [01:50:22] I understand that way of thinking. I used to feel that way a little bit. Or at Least, you know, I used to, I didn't used to understand why I thought it was a choice kind of, or an act and a purposeful act. You could say to like kind of lose your faith. And I have, you know, at the time I kind of struggled with feeling guilty about that. There are a few things I could say to that. I think one is every student who goes there, it's like 18 or 19 or maybe if they're off their mission 21. And we are all fully, and we all, I think for the most part intend to do what we say we want to do. And we're still, our brains are not done growing and we don't really know what's going to happen in the future. And as has been my experience and I think a lot of other people's experience, you don't actually get to like choose whether or not you have belief and faith in something to some extent. Like I was much happier while I was at BYU when I had my faith and I did not want to lose my faith and that was not my plan. And I honestly, if, if I had been able to say, hey, I lost my faith and I'll just like pay non member tuition, like I would have done that because that would have felt better for me. It did not feel good to lie. But the thing is one, you, the process of kind of losing your faith while you're in such a monocultured climate, it's really draining and really hard. And by the time you go through that, like whether or not it happened when you were maybe in high school, you kind of were forced into BYU or maybe happened while you were in byu, you don't really, you need like some time to heal and you don't really have the energy to go to another school and explain to them, like, please, like, please accept me, even though I have this like X list red mark on my transcript that I'm a terrible student, like, please let me explain to you my deepest traumas and hopefully you will understand and accept me into your program. You have to approve it all your life. Like moving is expensive. It's just for most people, not feasible to be able to make that change fluidly in the way that it would need to go for it to not be a huge, huge problem. Does that answer the question, And I'll
John Dehlin [01:53:45] just maybe ask you as well, was there an informed consent issue? In other words, when you signed the honor code, did you have all the information to be able to make an informed decision and that type of commitment?
Ally Christiansen [01:54:00] Yeah, you could say if you're going to have someone sign all of these rules. You should give them maybe the history of where all these rules came from. And they don't even. You don't even know when you're signing up. Like, if you. A lot of people don't know if I lose my faith, like, I'm going to get expelled, or like, what if I kind of have a sexual awakening and realize, like, oh, maybe I'm bi or I'm gay. While you're in school. You don't. You aren't really planning on that. Or maybe you already know, but you think it'll work out. But it's one thing to like, have an idea in your head and another thing to have the experience. And then we also, as students don't have, you know, the information on how BYU has hurt a lot of people. We don't know all of the church's history. We just, we would have to know a lot before that amount of promising would be fair. Yeah, that felt a little rambly. Did that make sense?
John Dehlin [01:55:11] No, it made perfect sense.
Ally Christiansen [01:55:12] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:55:13] Like, issues around the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith and his polygamy and racism and sexism and homophobia in the church. I guess most BYU prospective BYU students are ignorant of all those problems when they sign the honor code. And maybe if they had been given all that information before, maybe they wouldn't have signed the honor code. Maybe they would have chose to go to a different university. But by withholding by the church, withholding that information from the students, in some ways they're setting some students up for disillusionment later when they weren't given all the cards to begin with.
Ally Christiansen [01:55:52] And I would guess also probably a lot of young students were like, I was where having agency and choosing your gospel path. It wasn't. I just was kind of following the format. So it was like, obviously this is what I want because this is what I've been told my whole life will make me happy. And this is what has worked, worked for me in the past. So, like, as an 18 year old, like, yeah, obviously you want to go to BYU and like, get married and, you know, go on a mission. There's no way for you to know that that's not going to work. Or it's just, you're so. You don't know. Yeah, just a kid.
John Dehlin [01:56:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:56:38] Okay. And then there's the idea of like, I mean, one of the most beautiful, poignant things of many that I heard today was when you said you stopped praying and reading the scriptures, because that was damaging your faith. You stopped. You stopped praying and reading the Scriptures to try and fight to preserve your faith. And what. What also seems connected for me to that is the fact that you're forced at BYU as a student to go to church. So what is. What is compulsory? What's it like, compulsory Sunday church attendance? What's that like when you're a BYU student and maybe you don't believe anymore? Can you talk about what that's like and the game students sometimes have to play?
Ally Christiansen [01:57:25] Yeah, well, I. I was kind of lucky. I mean, pandemic has been terrible, but I was a little bit lucky how my timing worked out because Zach graduated, like, right when the pandemic happened, so he didn't have to keep faking anymore. You know, he didn't have to, like, try anymore to have that illusion of faith. And I was able to just kind of log on to zoom and then turn off the camera and mute it and turn off my volume. So every Sunday, I would just kind of pretend I went to church. And then when it was Relief Society, I would maybe go in for a couple minutes and, like, say hi, maybe answer a question, so it seemed like I was involved and then, like, turn it back off. But, yeah, it's just kind of more. It's just more of the, like, policing and hyper vigilance. Just one more aspect of your life where you're so confused and slowly, like, everything that you thought is, like, changing and it's all just draining away, and somehow you gotta keep pretending it's fine because you want it to be fine. So you can't talk to anyone. That's what it's like. There's actually kind of a funny story about that. I skipped if we want it. I was my. Our last, like, bishop that we had was. He was put in the ward right during the pandemic. So we hadn't, like, met in person, so he didn't know us as well, which felt maybe fortuitous somewhat, since I had been more in. More close with the previous bishop since I'd been playing for church. So this way I was able to kind of be more of just a detached number. But at one point, he had, like, a tithing. We had our tithing settlements, and I was still paying tithing because it felt like what I needed to do to be an honest BYU student. Even though at that point it felt kind of. It felt really off with my beliefs. But I felt like I needed to do that until I graduated. But Zach was not paying tithing, and he told the bishop that in our tithing settlement. And the bishop was like, oh, are you doing okay? Like, do you want to talk about it? And Zach was kind of like, no, I don't want to talk about it. Kind of abrupt, like, not really wanting to play. Like, he really cared much about the bishop's authority at this point. And a couple months later, the bishop called me and said, like, hey, I've been thinking about you and your husband, and I'm worried that he's, like, dragging you down. Basically, he felt like he, as my priesthood leader, needed to save me from my wicked husband. And at that point, I was like, oh, no, I'm gonna have to lie to him and say, like, oh, we're just, like, doing mixed faith marriage and it's fine. And I ended up, like, putting Zach on the phone because I wasn't really sure what to say. I was really flustered. And we just kind of, like, said that we were fine and reassured him that everything was okay, and then hung up and just kind of laughed because it was so absurd. But there was just, like, if the bishop had. If he had been more concerned, he could have easily, like, gone in and stepped in and realized it, realized something was off, and, like, I would have been, what, six credits away from my degree and it's all over. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:46] And it just seems to me, what's more personal and more sacred than, like, one's relationship with God? Prayer, church attendance? Like, that's starting. If there is anything sacred from a Mormon standpoint, it's that. So to make it compulsory, to make it tied to your education such that you feel like you have to fake it and lie to please some external authority or out of fear of punishment, feels literally like the antithesis of everything that a righteous, good religious faith should stand for and want. To me, yeah. It's like Satan's plan, basically, of, like, I'm going to force you to do good, you know, versus have free agency to choose. I'm just going to force it.
Ally Christiansen [02:02:40] Yeah. It's like realizing when I was, like, realizing how lonely and sad I was at byu, it was like, this is supposed to not be this way. And it is this way. This is. This in itself is like, proving to me that this is not led by God, the school.
John Dehlin [02:03:01] Yeah. Nobody's winning.
Ally Christiansen [02:03:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:04] Scenario. All right, last question about this sort of thing. Because, I mean, there's a heavy BYU theme here. So I don't want to leave some important stones unturned, but I. Every single semester, I get. People reach out to me who are BYU students, sometimes BYU faculty. And it's just like, help. What do I do? Where do I go? How do I find other students like me? So I don't feel so alone. We've done episodes on this because years ago there was like a Bradley and Alana. Yeah, they're actually.
Ally Christiansen [02:03:36] That was Zach's mission companion.
John Dehlin [02:03:37] Oh, okay. Yeah. You want to talk about that resource now? I don't even know if it's still active.
Ally Christiansen [02:03:42] It is.
John Dehlin [02:03:43] Okay. Do you want to talk about that?
Ally Christiansen [02:03:45] So some of Zach's friends were at BYU the same time as us. They graduated like maybe a couple years before I did. But Zach and Bradley were super good mission companions. And Bradley and Alana's faith crisis was ahead of ours. They did a Mormon Stories interview. It's pretty cool. And they also have this website called byusurvivalguide.com, i believe it's dot com. You can find it on Reddit and probably on that podcast description too. And it basically tells you like all the things you need to know about all the ways that you can get kicked out of school and ways that you can find other students to be friends with if that feels safe to you. But just like a lot of people don't realize how high the stakes are, and they are maybe more honest and less fearful, less self protective than I was. And maybe they tell their bishop about their worries. And if you have the wrong bishop, he will say, you do not pass the requirements for your ecclesiastical endorsement. You, you can no longer attend the school and you can no longer live in your BYU housing. Say you're homeless now, unless you can like, figure out how to have faith again or whatever. But it's usually, you know, it's usually when it gets to that point, pretty high and dry, you're cut off. And since it's a religious university, a private university, they're allowed to seize your transcripts. And you like, legally can't even get your transcripts if this happens to you. So you could be not only without a degree, but without any credits at all. So you'd have to completely start over at another school. So there. It's really risky to be in this situation. So someone has gone through, like Bradley and some of his friends, I guess they went through and wrote out all the things to be careful of, what you need to do to keep your academic standing in good order and to pass your ecclesiastical endorsement interview. And if you feel like you have to lie, here's a way for you to do that as well as if you want to find A group of students to connect with. Here's a group of students. You can connect with them.
John Dehlin [02:06:13] Yeah, yeah. So we'll include links to those episodes and to the BYU survival guide in the show notes of this episode. But it sounds like if we were just going to kind of give the LDS Church and BYU a suggestion, it's like number one, give. Give prospective students full informed consent so they know ahead of time the risks and the dangers of what they're signing up for. So they can know that ahead of time.
Ally Christiansen [02:06:42] And maybe their parents too, because their parents would hopefully be a little more lucid than their children.
John Dehlin [02:06:50] And maybe the statistics of how common it is for byu, because it's got to be super common these days for BYU students to lose their faith.
Ally Christiansen [02:06:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:06:57] Right. So what the probability is that this is going to happen, especially in 2022. So in fully informed consent. But then some sort of path, just like non Mormons at BYU have a path to become Mormons and then get the tuition break. Like you say, have a path for a Mormon who loses their faith to switch to a non LDS tuition rate, which almost doesn't make sense because you and your parents have paid tithing up to then, so why should you lose out? But anyway, if that's necessary, if it's a financial thing, provide a pathway to that. Would you be okay, in theory, with the agreement of, like, not talking to other BYU students about your faith crisis as a condition of continued, you know, of, of being a student there? I mean, that's still difficult, but I mean, I'm guessing that the church would want some sort of accommodation, which is. Yeah, don't be spreading the doubt.
Ally Christiansen [02:08:00] Yeah. I think the fear is if you allow apostates among the flock, they will destroy it.
John Dehlin [02:08:09] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:08:10] But I think most people just want to feel loved and not feel so alone. So maybe they could have, like. Okay, only don't. Like, here, here are the rules for how to talk to BYU students. And like, let's train our faculty on. They can be people you can talk to because a lot of them are doing this anyway. But, like, maybe just have an expectation. You could talk to your professors about it. But. And if you, if you know of other students who have gone through this process, like, maybe you can talk to them about it. Yeah. Although I honestly think if, if there had been open discourse in my time, like, what, a year ago, two years ago, I don't know if I would have completely lost my faith because what pushed me over was how unsustainable it was and how lonely it Was and realizing this institution is obviously unsafe and I don't want to be a part of it anymore. Like they've hurt me so much, let alone all the other people. Like I don't want to be here anymore. But if. If it was safe to talk about things, if people could talk about things, that people wouldn't be pushed away. People would probably be more mature.
John Dehlin [02:09:44] Yeah. Yeah. So it's probably hurting the church to have such strict and unhealthy expectations of BYU students and such severe consequences.
Ally Christiansen [02:09:59] Because at this point the only one who does, only people who will talk to you are people who are pretty much on the way out anyways.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:11] So I wonder if they could do anything like the therapist led faith transition groups. Do you know what I mean?
John Dehlin [02:10:25] We did that at Utah State University. We had faith crisis support groups at the counseling center.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:30] But you don't see that happening. The reason why I thought about that is it contains it. See. So you don't have students. The students that are going through it are being heard and they're able to talk, but they're talking to students that are already going through it. Which would make it less likely. You know, theoretically.
Ally Christiansen [02:10:54] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:54] That they. Which I would feel way better about than sort of this idea of like just don't talk to people. You can pay that non. Whatever, but just keep it to yourself. That doesn't seem sustainable.
John Dehlin [02:11:09] And yet if the. If BYU had like, I mean they have like pornography support groups in the counseling center. They have like meditation support groups or there was a.
Ally Christiansen [02:11:18] Some self compassion group that I went
John Dehlin [02:11:20] to for a while or eating disorder groups. Like they're going to have a bunch of groups. But if they had a faith crisis support group, number one, that would be acknowledging that students have. Openly acknowledging the students do have faith crises, which I think the people you wouldn't want. And then secondly, it might spread the idea that it's okay. So maybe a compromise would be having these support groups but not advertising them.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:44] Yeah. But wouldn't it be just interesting. I'm sorry to nerd out, but it would be interesting from a research standpoint. You know how many leave.
John Dehlin [02:11:56] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:57] If they did that. If they were willing to acknowledge it. If a therapist was trained to sort of. And they actually cared for those people going through the. What would happen to the statistics of people actually leaving versus. Yeah, just interesting.
John Dehlin [02:12:15] No, we're looking into. But the final thing that I think is just basic decency is don't withhold a transcript, don't violate a student's progress, cause them to retake a year or two of their coursework and to forfeit tens of thousands of dollars, that's just inhumane. The church has to just stop that.
Ally Christiansen [02:12:44] It's very hateful.
John Dehlin [02:12:46] Yeah,
Ally Christiansen [02:12:49] yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:12:50] Probably makes. It creates enemies for life of the church when they do stuff like that. Yeah. Well, our solidarity to all the BYU students that are out there. And this is going to become a bigger. This is a bigger and bigger problem every year and it's going to keep being a big problem. Not to mention all the BBU faculty that feel trapped that they can't tell anyone, be honest with their bishop, come out with their loss of faith, that it'll threaten their career because they made the choice to go to BYU when they believed. And now who's going to hire sometimes who's going to hire him now that BYU is on their resume? Sometimes that's not true, but sometimes it is.
Ally Christiansen [02:13:27] Yeah. Yeah. As. As, like, sad as I feel for all the other students in my situation, I just can't imagine, like what if, what if I worked there and it was like my dream and I was like a religion professor or like a very niche, like dance department maybe, and it was everything I ever wanted and my whole life was built around it and then this happened. Like, what do you do?
John Dehlin [02:13:54] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:13:54] You can't take care of yourself or your family.
John Dehlin [02:13:59] Yeah. And then you are just stuck living a lie that's rotting your soul from the inside out, you know? Well, anyway, BYU do it is right. Let the consequence follow. I'll just say to you what the church taught me. Is that fair?
Ally Christiansen [02:14:21] Yeah. Alas.
John Dehlin [02:14:24] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:14:25] It's hard for me to have faith that that will happen ever.
John Dehlin [02:14:32] But who knows?
Ally Christiansen [02:14:33] Yeah. Well, now whenever I talk to students, if I ever hear someone who's thinking about going to byu, I usually tell them, don't, don't go there. Even though I had a lot of really cool experiences. You never know. It's not worth it.
Margi Dehlin [02:14:51] It's true. It just does feel like you take a developing brain during a time of development that is about expansion and exploration, you know, and you just kind of. You put those two things together and then you take this idea of how readily information is now available and you just put all those together in a soup and it's just like, yeah, the odds, the odds are not in your favor. You know, the odds are that. And this idea of penalizing for those things, the idea that someone has a developing brain, they're in this place of exploration developmentally and expansion and then the fact that they stumble upon information that's readily. They didn't create the information. They're not responsible for the history. They just come upon it and then struggle and then you punish them. Yeah,
John Dehlin [02:15:57] but it's so hard. Like you and I met at byu. I had a great experience at byu. I loved my time at byu. The athletics, the devotionals, the student life, the dorms, the religious education. Like for me there was just so much good that was there. And then so many amazing departments there. Whether it's, you know, graphic design or the dance, you know, the ballroom dance or folk dancing or music. There's just so many amazing departments. Accounting and computer science and animation. Like we've often said how much we wish in some ways our own children could have gone to BYU because there's so much good there. So we're torn because at least I still love so much about byu. So it's really sad for three BYU graduates to be sitting here saying we can't recommend BYU anymore. Sad for me. I don't know if it's sad for you. Is it sad for you, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [02:17:02] I think it's a little less sad for me. But I, I do think the information piece is a key player and we didn't have that when we went there. And to hold kids, hold kids responsible for what they read or what they stumble upon as they live in the world as it is for a reality that just is, and then you punish them for that. There's just all manner of wrong in that.
Ally Christiansen [02:17:30] To me it just speaks of a great built in fear of, well, what if it happened to me? I don't want it to happen to me, so I'm going to make it really scary. And then, you know, maybe you make this policy and it doesn't happen to you and good for you, but it's gonna happen to someone. And even if you never do, like, even if you get through BYU and this never happens to you, it's probably a lot of things you've internalized, they're not great. Not great for you. Brain.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:09] Yeah, that's the whole thing. Even the people who fit in the box who are, do all sorts of things to stay in that box. Right. So we're not even talking about the people that you know. It hurts them too.
Ally Christiansen [02:18:25] Abuse is abuse.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:28] Yeah,
John Dehlin [02:18:31] well, it's hard. It's hard. Well, okay, so how, how does your story end? I guess it doesn't end with byu. There's. Yeah, well, healing and growth for you after byu.
Ally Christiansen [02:18:44] Yeah, there's kind of a bit of, you know, waiting until I get My transcript until I resign from the church. And that was pretty scary. There's also a bit of element of going to grad school. You need letters of recommendation from different professors. So if you start making a fuss, you know, as soon as you graduate, that might not happen. You don't know. So I still kind of felt like I needed to be quiet. So I started, you know, like, telling on Mother's Day that year, I told my parents, and I started telling just, like, a few individual people and dealing with. I don't have to get into. But there's lots of stories of extended family just kind of cutting you off, giving you the cold shoulder, which is really painful. Fortunately, my immediate family was able to respond in, like, a loving way. And by the time I was, like, really settled on this decision, it was actually only me and my oldest sister left in the church. So my siblings, including my younger siblings, had kind of paved the way and, like, helped my parents feel a little more at ease with this. So that when it happened with me, it was kind of a surprise, but they knew how to react, which I really was grateful for. It was nice to be able to finally tell my parents what was going on.
John Dehlin [02:20:38] Are you saying that of the six children of your parents, only one out of the six remains in the church? Those aren't good numbers?
Ally Christiansen [02:20:47] Well, I think. Or are they good numbers for the church?
John Dehlin [02:20:51] From the church's perspective? Those are. And that's what we're seeing is like 80% across the board. 80% of the kids raised Mormon in the United States these days, in 2020 are leaving.
Ally Christiansen [02:21:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:21:08] And I guess you're a return missionary, Temple, married.
Ally Christiansen [02:21:10] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:21:10] Mormon.
Ally Christiansen [02:21:10] Yeah. I, like, was kind of the most insane. Maybe not insane. Most. Like, I gotta do everything of all my siblings.
John Dehlin [02:21:20] Most devout of your siblings.
Ally Christiansen [02:21:21] Well, I don't know if that's fair to say up there, but I was very dedicated to doing all the things in my devotion, and that didn't help for my decision to resign from the church rather than just kind of like, stop going. For me, it felt like I had been held captive, especially being at byu. So I felt like the best way for me to heal and kind of take my power back was that I needed to not be a member of the church at all. So that was kind of another thing that I think probably a lot of BYU students, because of how, Like, shuttered they feel once they leave, they have to resign. Whereas, like, maybe if I was. I don't know. I was talking about this with a former employer who's at The Catholic Cathedral in Salt Lake. He was saying, oh, it's crazy that like, this has been so hard for you because when people like, if someone's Catholic and this happens, they can like keep coming and they're probably still stay Catholic. They just maybe don't believe, but it's just. It just doesn't feel like you can't do that.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:43] Right.
Ally Christiansen [02:22:44] So that was the thing. I also, after this, found a trauma therapist, started doing EMDR for ptsd, which I am diagnosed with now. And I've. I was able to apply to grad schools mostly because I was able to get a lot of help with the essays because I was still feeling really just gross about life. And I was able to use the recordings from my senior recital as my audition stuff since it's still kind of COVID Beautiful. Yeah. I'm still right now kind of as a fallout of all of this, dealing with having a hard time, like feeling safe while I sing. So there's. There's still like kind of a trauma response there, which really sucks when I'm like wanting to do that and I have ideas of projects I'm interested in and things like I want to start doing for my career, but I can't because, like, I get triggered and I can't physically sing. So the therapy has been really helpful with that. But I'm still kind of like, still scared for how grad school will go. And I hopeful that it's fine, but I'm scared that there's like, part of me that's scared I'll never really be able to sing like I used to
John Dehlin [02:24:29] in this PTSD diagnosis. Is it. Is it other stuff that you haven't talked about or is it sort of
Ally Christiansen [02:24:37] a little bit of both? Okay, but this specifically is part of that. Yeah. With music in the church and byu.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:24:54] So maybe what percentage of it's Mormon related in one way or the other?
Ally Christiansen [02:24:57] All of it, I would. I would say is
John Dehlin [02:25:01] I'm so sorry.
Ally Christiansen [02:25:02] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:03] That's such a loss.
Ally Christiansen [02:25:05] Yeah. So, yeah, that I can't really recommend to other music students to go to BYU because, I mean, in some ways I learned a lot and I had good teachers, but, like, at what cost? I also this year decided in 22 that I felt comfortable coming out on Facebook and I didn't like, explain everything, but I wanted. It felt weird, like monitoring, like, okay, today I'm going to see these people, so I need to remember to dress like this and like not say, like, not swear around them. That got kind of. It started to drag on me. So I felt comfortable posting on Facebook. And I had a flood of BYU friends, past and current, who messaged me with either, like, you know, that this is not their experience, but they were. They really wish they could have talked to me, but they're, like, so sorry. And. And quite a few people who are still. Who are in the middle of the struggle, and they. They can't tell anyone, and they're just terrified. So.
John Dehlin [02:26:28] So the problem's bigger than people might imagine.
Ally Christiansen [02:26:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:26:31] More common, you're finding, than you even thought while you were there.
Ally Christiansen [02:26:36] Yeah. And the sad thing was, like, seeing how many people. I only had, like, one person respond kind of negatively. And it was a person. I don't really care. Their opinion of me, but I had a lot of people say really, like, kind things. And I realized, like, it would have been really nice if we could have had this conversation two years ago.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:59] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:26:59] Like, I think there are a lot of people who would have been there for me, but they didn't know what was going on.
John Dehlin [02:27:18] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:27:22] So where does that take you now? Any.
Ally Christiansen [02:27:23] Yeah. So here I am figuring out what I believe and realizing it's okay to not know everything. Getting ready to go to grad school and leave Utah, Be around people who are not going to immediately assume I'm either Mormon or not Mormon. They'll just see me as a person. Hopefully. I'm looking forward to that. Looking forward to pursuing my career more and hopefully finding more healing for myself. And when I'm in a good place, it'd be cool to be able to reach out and help other people.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:28:12] Yeah. Well, this interview is going to help a lot of people.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:18] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:28:20] Well, it's helped me, if anything, been good for me.
John Dehlin [02:28:26] How so?
Margi Dehlin [02:28:26] That's. I love that reframing, because I think that's so Mormon, this idea of, like, helping others and helping that. It's actually, I. I love that it can be enough if it helps me, you know, and it's okay if it helps you. If it helps you in saying it. And that's actually the most important. That can be the most important part of this.
Ally Christiansen [02:28:53] Yeah. You know, realizing that the only thing I can control is if I'm taking care of myself right now, you know, and hopefully we can all take care of ourselves. And if we have people we are in charge of, hopefully we can take care of them, too.
John Dehlin [02:29:17] Yeah. Well said. Beautiful. So I'm guessing your life's going to be super busy. So if there are BYU students out there that need support, I guess I think generally caps Counseling and Psychological Services is a safe place at BYU to go to. They don't.
Ally Christiansen [02:29:39] They don't report to the honor code office.
John Dehlin [02:29:42] So if you're a B. WE student, go to caps. That's one thing you can do. I guess. Let's go to Ex Mormon Reddit. Don't. Don't go to like a Facebook group with your real identity and start sharing things because. Right.
Ally Christiansen [02:29:58] Yeah. You'll probably get in trouble.
John Dehlin [02:30:01] There's people. The church pays people to watch those groups and turn students in. So be careful what you reveal on Facebook or anywhere. Anywhere your identity can be discovered. But extra Mormon Reddit can be safe if you don't dox yourself, basically.
Ally Christiansen [02:30:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:18] Listening to podcasts can be helpful.
Ally Christiansen [02:30:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:21] The BYU Survival Guide is a resource. BYU caps. Any other resources you can think of
Ally Christiansen [02:30:28] if you're not too far along in your degree? You've probably heard this advice before, but UVU is pretty good at accepting transfer students. I think they get a lot of transfer students from byu, so if that's an option for you, it's about the same tuition, so it's not hopefully too bad. And if, if you can pay for therapy, like outside of byu, that could be also helpful, just depending on how far along you are and how painful it is to just be on campus at all.
John Dehlin [02:31:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, Ali. And if people want to reach out to you or get in touch with you, you might be too busy to be fielding.
Closing Reflections and Message to Listeners
Ally Christiansen [02:31:23] Yeah, I mean, I probably. I'll probably be having some boundaries around random people reaching out to me, especially if you don't have anything kind to say. I'm just. We'll ignore it. So you could say what you want, I guess, but I'm not gonna pay attention, I guess. I've got like. My Instagram and my Facebook are private, but my, like teaching my like performing Instagram is public. So you could contact me there. It's Allie Christiansen sings, I think. And also my website has like a contact form, so you could. You could email me through there and that would be pretty private. Although I cannot guarantee I will respond. But I love that.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:19] Yeah, I love your boundaries.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:23] Maybe in a couple years when I, when I get around to it, I'll respond and maybe not. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:31] And if someone wants to hire you to sing,
Ally Christiansen [02:32:34] same my website.
John Dehlin [02:32:36] Alecristiansen.com Right.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:38] Yeah. It says that I'm still a senior at BYU because I haven't had the energy to rewrite it since then. But I'm not consider you all, consider yourselves updated yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:50] The graduation happened.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:52] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:32:55] All right.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:56] We're excited for you.
Ally Christiansen [02:32:57] Thanks.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:58] Yeah. For the next. This next kind of chapter, this next. All the change that you have and the new beginnings. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:09] Yeah. We really appreciate you doing this interview before you take off to wherever you're going.
Ally Christiansen [02:33:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:14] Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:33:16] It's a good. Kind of scary.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:17] Yeah, that's right.
John Dehlin [02:33:19] Well, if it's any consolation, I'm not right now practicing as a psychotherapist, but for trauma, leaning into what you've experienced and doing what are called exposures, which is confronting the pain, telling the story is often a gateway to some healing. So it seems to me like what you're doing here is. Is. Is the right direction to be leaning as you're trying to heal. For whatever that's worth, I hope it. Experience it that way.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:56] We hope so.
John Dehlin [02:33:56] Hope you experience it that way.
Ally Christiansen [02:33:58] Cool. Me too. It's been pretty nice so far. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:04] All right. And a shout out to your partner for his support. Nice job.
Ally Christiansen [02:34:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:09] A lot of people don't have a partner to go through this with, so I'm really lucky. Yeah.
Ally Christiansen [02:34:14] In that way.
John Dehlin [02:34:14] Yeah. All right. Any final words?
Margi Dehlin [02:34:22] Yes.
Ally Christiansen [02:34:23] Take care of yourself and whether that means right now you're very believing in Mormonism and it works for you, do that. And if it's not working for you, don't do it. And you'll be okay either way. If you want advice or don't take my advice.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:44] That's right.
John Dehlin [02:34:47] All right, well, thanks, Ali.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:49] Good luck and a pleasure.
John Dehlin [02:34:51] Yeah. And thanks, Margi. So great to have you. Thanks for being riding shotgun today. It's always great to have you.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:58] Yeah. I'm glad I was here for it.
John Dehlin [02:35:01] And we. With all our guests that we have on, like Natasha or Samantha, I feel comfortable promoting kind of their private endeavors. And in your case, Margi, you do have a coaching practice where you offer some kind of transition coaching, is that right?
Margi Dehlin [02:35:20] I do, yes. You can find me at Beauty in the Now. And I am also on Instagram a bit, and it's just Margi Dehlin. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:35:38] On Instagram.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:39] On Instagram.
John Dehlin [02:35:40] All right, well, thanks for. Thanks for being a part of this, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:44] Yeah, I'm really glad. My pleasure.
John Dehlin [02:35:47] And thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. We're always grateful to Gerardo Sumano, Gen Camp Brooklyn, the Open Stories board, everyone who makes the Open Storage foundation possible. We're grateful to the donors that make all this possible. The studio, all the equipment, everything. If you. If you support us financially. Thank you. If you don't and you want to see this type of programming continue. We always really appreciate those who become monthly donors@mormonstories.org your donations are tax deductible in the US we're 100% transparent in our finances. And all your support goes to helping support Mormons in transition and maybe to try and help the church become a healthier place. So thanks for your support. Support us. If you can. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with feedback, follow us on all the socials, subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on Facebook, and you can find us on TikTok and Instagram and Twitter and wherever you do your social medias, we're probably there. But thanks for all the support. Be kind to each other. One more thing.
Ally Christiansen [02:36:58] Sorry, I have one last plug that I forgot about.
John Dehlin [02:37:00] Please.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:00] I do actually have a Facebook group for BYU choir alumni who are ex Mormon.
John Dehlin [02:37:06] Whoa, what's that called?
Ally Christiansen [02:37:08] It's private and hidden.
John Dehlin [02:37:10] Oh, okay.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:12] Because, you know, some people can't say, but if you want to be part of that, you can contact me on Facebook. And we will vet you and make sure you're an appropriate person for this group. But we would love to have you there.
John Dehlin [02:37:29] So Ali Kristiansen's Facebook account.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:33] Yeah. Ali Finlanson Christiansen is on Facebook.
John Dehlin [02:37:36] Ali Finlayson Finlandson. Finlandson Christiansen.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:37:41] We'll include that in the show notes as well.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:43] Cool.
John Dehlin [02:37:43] And the name of that group again, is called. What?
Ally Christiansen [02:37:45] There's no. There's no public name.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:48] You keep going for that?
John Dehlin [02:37:49] No, no, I just like the idea of it. So, again, it's.
Ally Christiansen [02:37:53] I just. I started a group so that I could feel less lonely, and it's been nice.
John Dehlin [02:37:58] And it's BYU singing ex Mormons, basically.
Ally Christiansen [02:38:03] Yeah. If you were in the BYU choirs, you've left the church. It's just like a special kind of pain.
Margi Dehlin [02:38:09] Such a good idea.
Ally Christiansen [02:38:10] Yeah. So we get one another there.
John Dehlin [02:38:13] I love it. I love it. Okay, thanks so much, Ali. Thanks, Margi. Thanks, everyone. Be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Ally, a returned-missionary and member of BYU’s elite choir, BYU Singers, describes her struggles with perfectionism, mental health, discovering her asexuality after marriage, losing her faith as a student at BYU, and rediscovering her relationship with music.
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Show Notes:
- AllyChristiansen.com
- Ally Christiansen Instagram
- A Little Book of Ace
- LDS Church Proclamation on the Family
- Contrapoints YouTube channel
- Gretchen Day MS Interview
- RFM Investigation of MTC Sex Scandal
- “Oh Ye Fair Ones” – Christian Asplund
- BYU Survival Guide
- MS Episode – Bradly and Ilana, BYU Survival Guide. How to survive BYU as a non-traditional or non-believing student
- Utah Valley University
- Beauty in the Now (Margi’s Coaching)
- Ally Finlinson Christiansen Facebook
Part 1
Part 2
One Response
I was raised in the LDS church and exposed to all the talk and teaching around masturbation being forbidden, an act that resulted in one’s unworthiness and uncleanliness.
Although no longer a member of the church, I am still of the understanding that an active LDS married couple that openly shares with each other that they masturbate is their business, and not considered to be unclean or sinful.
The reason for my comment is due to Ally talking about her husband masturbating and subsequently feeling guilt and shame, even when their communication over him doing so was open and transparent. (healthy)
Am I missing something ?…
On another note, I enjoyed the podcast listening to Ally’s story. (Part 1) Her vulnerability and insight displayed regarding her personal sexuality and relationship with her husband, inspiring.