Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 141

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories Podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org. This is Mormon Stories. I'm John Dehlin. Today I have with me someone who I've been hoping to interview for a long time now, and someone who I think has done an incredible amount of good to help people in their struggles within this Mormon dilemma that many of us face. And his name is Brian Johnston. Brian, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Brian Johnston [00:00:41] Oh, hey, John. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Now, Brian has been interviewed on the Mormon Expression Podcast a few times. He's appeared with me even once or twice, and you're going to hear some overlap if you are a Mormon Expression listener with this podcast. But don't let that dismay you. We're going to go into a lot more depth and I hardly recommend you go listen to those episodes on Mormon Expression Podcast if you haven't yet. But there are a few reasons why I've been wanting to interview Brian for a long, long time. The first is that just like we've interviewed people on Mormon Stories who have struggled with their faith and even some have chosen to leave the church, I have a commitment and a goal to make sure that we cover all sides of the spectrum in terms of the Mormon experience. And probably the situation that I'm personally most interested in is people who have been through a crisis of faith, people who know all the challenging intellectual and historical problems with the church and maybe you could even argue have every possible excuse or reason to want to leave the church, but who instead remain believers in some sense and who decide that they want to stay. And Brian is one of those people. He's an active member of the church. He loves the church, and he's found a way to remain in in a way that brings him a lot of joy and satisfaction. So that's the first reason I wanted to bring Brian on. Second, Brian is a co founder of the website Stay LDS.com and currently the CEO of the website. He runs it, he manages it, and he's the main person at Stale DS whose primary mission is not to convince people to stay in the church. That is absolutely not the core mission of Stale ds. But instead, the purpose of Stale DS is for those people who decide that they either need or want to stay in the church to provide them support to help them in that decision. And Brian is like a missionary to these people every day, going up to the forum@staleds.com and helping people navigate these tricky waters. And then finally, the last reason why I've really wanted to interview Brian is because he is himself in a mixed faith marriage. His wife no longer attends church, she's no longer a believer. And not only has he, you know, is he in the thick of navigating how to manage that relationship and make it be as positive as possible for both he and his wife and their six children, but also Ryan has spent a lot, Brian has spent a lot of time on faces east. Is it.com or.org it's a.org faceseast.org which is a website dedicated to supporting mixed faith marriages. So Brian, how's that for an introduction?

Brian Johnston [00:03:49] Wow. Who is that guy?

John Dehlin [00:03:53] That is you. So with that Brian, let's begin as I always begin and let's dive deep into your story.

Brian Johnston's Background and Upbringing

Brian Johnston [00:04:01] Okay, where do we start? Like do a chronological. Yeah, okay. I grew up in a traditional orthodox Mormon family. My father was a convert when he was a young adult. My mother has been a member of the church all her life. Grew up. They were wonderful parents, active in the church. My father was a bishop for a number of years. They currently are temple workers and have done service missions and stuff like that. Wonderful parents, great examples to me. So I'm the oldest of eight children and by the way, we always lived outside of whatever you want to call it, the Mormon corridor, except for one year that I spent at byu. I've always lived outside of that area in the so called mission field.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] Don't you love that term?

Brian Johnston [00:05:09] Yeah, but you know, I think I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that aspect. It fit in well with my personality because, you know, there wasn't a lot of members of the church and you know, it made me have to always just think about what it means to, you know, what does it mean to be a Mormon? Because I'm always somebody who's different as opposed to just fitting in. And I guess to me that is kind of like a theme that has permeated a lot of my life experience growing up and also as an adult, I think personality wise, I guess just to tell a story of when I was young, I was a young man about 12 years old, and this was kind of one of those key events in my life that I think where I made a big change, a transformation. And actually I think that that's what life is a lot about. Like the meaning of life is kind of this process of transformation on a personal level. But anyways, I've always, throughout my life kind of felt like I was on the sidelines or an outsider. And I guess I've grown to be Very comfortable with that. And maybe that's why I've had an easier time staying. So I was around 12 years old and really just wanted to fit in and be cool with all the other kids and went and bought. You got to picture this, back in the 1980s, went and got the coolest pair of parachute pants. I don't know if you remember that style.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] I totally remember parachute pants.

Brian Johnston [00:06:52] Yeah, parachute pants. And I got this black and white shirt that had sort of like odd cut sleeves. Totally cool clothes. And I was going to go down to the church and go see a couple of girls that I liked and be totally Mr. Cool. And I was on my way there and I just started thinking about it and I just realized that this wasn't me trying to do all this artificial stuff to fit in. And the things that I always thought about and the things that I was passionate about. A lot of people, if I would tell them about it, they would just deer in the headlights and just go. Either not know what I'm talking about or think I'm crazy or something. But I just remember that moment in my life where I really decided and realized and was comfortable with the fact that I don't need to fit in in order to be comfortable with myself sort of thing. It's like I think I looked at myself in the mirror and I go, man, I look ridiculous. You know, it's just one of those kind of aha moments. But so anyways, going forward after that, I have to say as a young person, as a teenager, I really, I struggled a lot. My family moved around and I felt like I was ripped away from friends all the time. And I really was pretty depressed and kind of angry person. I know people that meet me now can't believe this, but when I was a teenager, I had funny colored hair and wore combat boots. I was in a goth band called Jesus Wept and we played in clubs in D.C. and wrote our own music. And I was going to be, you know, a musician and an artist. But I was really just, I was so sad. I just wanted to like, I wish life would just go away. And what were you sad about? I felt like just the world was such a messed up place and I, you know, you know, kind of thinking back like, you know, that was still in the era. My children don't even have any kind concept of this. But it was an era where the Soviets were going to, we were going to all die in a nuclear war. And that's like what was on tv. And it was the era where there was A lot of big rampant rise in drug use and the big 80s glitz of corporate America and just everything seemed so out of kilter and out of whack. I just remember that, you know, me and my friends dwelt on that a lot. Perhaps I was even, you know, clinically depressed or something. But I got involved in a lot of alcohol and drugs and like I said, this kind of this goth scene thing and playing this really angry music and.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Do you have pictures? I want to see pictures.

Brian Johnston [00:10:07] Yeah, actually, I think we corresponded about this once. I was at BYU for a year and I think you were there at the same exact time.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah, 87 chipman and.

Brian Johnston [00:10:18] Yeah, 87. 88.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Right in Helama halls.

Brian Johnston [00:10:20] Yeah, Gilaman Halls. And I ended up gravitating towards hanging out with this one buddy who wasn't a member of the church. He was like one of my best friends there. And anyway, there's a couple other people that really, we all just stuck out like a sore thumbs up at byu. I even had the like the dorm mom call me in and tell me I was like breaking standards because I had shaved my head or something like that, which I didn't quite get.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] So there was a guy in my dorms named Pat and he wore chains and I think he had earrings. You didn't know that guy, did you? In Shipman.

Brian Johnston [00:10:54] That sounds vaguely familiar. I don't think he was a. I don't remember if I hung out with him.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Totally unrelated to our audience. Sorry, audience.

Brian Johnston [00:11:00] Anyways, yeah, so there was as a young person, I don't want to say I was suicidal because that's not how it was. I was just very angry and depressed and the world seemed like a horrible place. And I know this is what surprised everybody, but, you know, I thought about that all the time and I thought about what am I going to do in life? You know, I started a year of college and I was just contemplating this one day because I knew I just had to figure something out. And we talked about this a little bit before. I hate sounding like a crazy person, but I had a spiritual experience that I guess I would call like a vision. There wasn't any angels singing, there wasn't any beam of light coming down. But as I was pondering this, my mind just opened up and I could see it was like me standing on this brick wall. And I could jump off one side or I could jump off the other side. And going off in both directions, I could see way down my life. And one was staying in a band and Being this artist and hanging out with my friends and going one path, and the other path was really different. And I could see, like, I couldn't really see specific details. It was more of a feeling of. Of being dedicated. I'm trying to think of how to describe it, but it seemed like a good path, like a purposeful one, and I'd be married and have a family and do good things in the world, but it was very different emotionally. And when I saw that, I thought to myself, I think I really want to give that a try. But the hard part was that the person I was at the time who was all sad and depressed, it was a feeling. Like the way I processed it was that if. If I went down this other path that I saw that looked good, the person who I was would be no more. Does that make any sense?

Mission Preparation and Early Church Experience

John Dehlin [00:13:16] Sure.

Brian Johnston [00:13:16] Almost like that person I was would. Would die. Not. Not really die, but that would be the end. And to everybody that knew me's great surprise, I announced that I was going on a mission. Everybody did like, a double take. They're like, who's going on a mission? But that was a part of that path, and it was like stepping out and just taking a leap off the cliff and saying, I'm going to give this a try. And part of this was, I was raised Mormon. I was raised with these beliefs. I haven't really given this a try. I'm going to just do it. I'm going to put my whole self into it and really give it a shot. So there I was, buying a suit, getting my hair cut, the whole nine yards. And I didn't even give a farewell speech because it just seemed so awkward, but I really threw myself into it, and I ended up going to a mission in Germany.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] When were you in the MTC?

Brian Johnston [00:14:25] See, that would have been 19. August. Like, August, September of 1988.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] So we were there at the same time.

Brian Johnston [00:14:34] How about that?

John Dehlin [00:14:35] Yeah.

Brian Johnston [00:14:37] Yeah. So went to a mission in Germany.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] So you had Pinniger. Pinniger was your MTC president?

Brian Johnston [00:14:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Wasn't he awesome? Or did you not like him?

Brian Johnston [00:14:47] I almost. I liked him a lot. And I have a funny story to tell because think of my life leading up to that, what I was involved in. And I've always kept notebooks. And I write a lot. I write my ideas down and I draw things. I just. Without even thinking, I brought my notebook because it was half full along with me as a missionary. And, you know, I start writing missionary stuff in it, but it was full of, like, lyrics to songs and really like dark drawings and all this stuff. And I made the mistake of leaving that, I think in a class or in the cafeteria or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Oops.

Brian Johnston [00:15:37] Oops. Yeah. And I have to say, I know he was a wonderful man. I know he had a lot of love for everybody, but he had no idea what to do with me.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] So I got turned into him. And then he called it.

Brian Johnston [00:15:48] Got turned into him. I got called down to his office. He's like, what is this? And he opens the notebook and he's like, paging through all this stuff. And I'm just sitting there like, that's a bummer. Yeah. And this is the funny part of the story is, I mean, I told him, I said, look, you know, that was the life I led. I've decided to make this big change. I'm going to go on a mission for the church. And just for safety's sake, they. They decided to send me to, like, the MTC psychologist. Whoa. Yeah. And, you know, not. Not to belabor the point, but, you know, he gave me. He gave me the rubber stamp. He said, look, this guy's just a creative individual. He seems healthy and all this stuff. But the funny thing is I had to take like this big, long psychological survey, and a bunch of the questions in it are like, do you believe that God speaks to you? Does he?

John Dehlin [00:16:37] You know, so is this like the MMPI? I'm in psychology. It was like 500 questions. Took an hour to fill it out.

Brian Johnston [00:16:42] It was really long.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] That's crazy. They probably gave us.

Brian Johnston [00:16:46] Yeah, so they're giving me this test, and I remember there was a big section they kept asking questions about, like, you know, if. If I believe that God answers my prayers and all this stuff. And I'm thinking, if I answer yes, does that make you crazy? And if I answer no, does that mean that they're going to kick me out of the mtc?

John Dehlin [00:17:03] That's funny.

Brian Johnston [00:17:05] Anyways, so I was fine, but like I said, you know, it's just they had no idea what to do with me. And that was fine. But, yeah, all his talk about, no matter what, you can come talk to me. Well, I guess I found something that he didn't know what to do with.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:17:21] Yeah. So went on a mission. And the mission president I had in the Germany mission is notorious and infamous to this day. And I think, John, I listened to some of your stories and other podcasts, but you may have had a similar experience. But I was in one of those missions that was very numbers driven and it was about the results. And I mean, this may not sound much for a South American mission, but in Germany, it was his goal. He was going to have 100 baptisms a month on a regular basis.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] That's a lot. That's a ton.

Brian Johnston [00:17:54] Yeah. In a European mission. And you know What? He got 99 his last month. I mean, we were doing that, but it was, you know, they were pounding on the missionaries, and if you, you know, get your numbers, the blood of the souls of those people that, you know, should have heard the message will be on your. On you at the judgment bar of God. And there was people that, you know, really went home from that mission and had to get counseling and stuff from. You know, what I understand of talking to people. Big guilt trip. But now, what had prepared me for that is that I was already used to not fitting in.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Right.

Brian Johnston [00:18:34] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Made you resilient. Made you resilient, I guess.

Brian Johnston [00:18:39] I mean, I bought into it some, and I really wanted to be there because that was a. I felt like I had sacrificed who I was to give this a shot.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Right.

Brian Johnston [00:18:48] Nobody. I had no pressure to go. I mean, yeah, my parents really wanted me to go on a mission, of course, but there was. I was not going to be made to feel guilty if I didn't. It was a choice that I made, and I was there to do the best job that I could. And if these crazy people were talking about, you know, I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom unless I hand out 10 books of Mormon this week. It was ridiculous. And I didn't buy into that. Not to say it wasn't hard because, you know, there's a lot of social pressure. But so anyways, I had a great experience as a missionary. It really changed me. And part of it was that I had decided I was going to totally jump into this thing and give it my all. And the other is I'd always been a real introvert. And that day in, day out, having to talk to people that didn't want to talk about religion

John Dehlin [00:19:46] got you out of your shell?

Brian Johnston [00:19:48] Got me out of my shell. Huge growing experience. What a positive experience in my life. Came back, and it really set me in a great direction. And I'm really thankful for that experience that I had after that. Got married, of course, a couple months after coming home from a mission. Jumped right into having children like I was supposed to. If you just have faith, everything's going to work out fine.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] How did you pick your wife?

Brian Johnston [00:20:19] I had known her at byu. She was kind of an oddball, like Me and hung out in that same crowd. She started writing me when I was a missionary, kind of out of the blue. And we wrote back and forth and later on decided we'd get married.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] Cool.

Brian Johnston [00:20:39] So, yeah, jumped right into the full Mormon experience, got married, started having kids, realized I had no career, no way of supporting a family.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] There's that.

Brian Johnston [00:20:52] Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. So, you know, started going back to school. That wasn't working out. I ended up joining the army just because, you know, I could get college money. And it was way more. As sad as it is, being a private in the army was way more money than working at the video game store in the shopping mall. Joined the army and once again, okay, so mission is a real conformist kind of environment where everybody dresses the same, is expected, or everybody assumes that everybody thinks the same and all this stuff. Jump into the army and it's just like being a missionary again. And so it was another one of these things where I go to basic training and now instead of the mission president yelling at us that, you know, we're all going to go to outer darkness for not, you know, keeping up the right numbers and doing everything, right now I've got a drill sergeant cursing in my face, you know, telling me I'm a worthless nobody. Blankety blank and same sort of experience. There's like people all around me freaking out. But I think to myself, I didn't make the mistake of smiling and laughing at a drill sergeant. But I'm thinking in the back of my mind like, you're nothing compared to a mission president telling me that my eternal salvation is like, I just got to make it to the end of the day here. Yeah. So spent a bunch of time in the army and while married in the army, traveling around a lot. We were oftentimes inactive, kind of go to church sometimes. So spent a good deal of time, sort of half in, half out of the church. And I guess the real point where I got involved in a lot of the stuff like stay LDS and whatnot was about two years ago when the world just all of a sudden took a 90 degree turn. My wife and I had been married for 16 years. We had six children. I have always, always been the curious type of studying history and religion and all this kind of stuff. Very interested in all kinds of things from sacred geometry to reading a Catholic catechism book. So I guess I was aware of a lot of stuff. Not really having to deal with issues in the church that are really controversial, but also never quite feeling like I totally fit into church anyways, because, like I said, as a teenager, I was really not very involved in church and did a lot of stuff that was just counter to the culture and everything. But I've had a couple family members that had issues with the church, and one in particular me and my wife were both really close to, had decided to leave the church about a number of issues. Me and him, we talked a lot, all the time. And he, you know, we had a really comfortable relationship talking. And he read. There's this one book, under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Sure.

Brian Johnston [00:24:14] It's a toughie. It's a tough book.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Yeah, it's a tough book.

Brian Johnston [00:24:18] Let me tell you, that book made

John Dehlin [00:24:19] me sick to my stomach.

Brian Johnston [00:24:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Literally physically ill. I got physically ill reading that book.

Brian Johnston [00:24:26] I could believe it. So he had read this book, and he wanted me to read it. I know a lot of people think, oh, yeah, see, that's a trap. He's just trying to get me to leave the church. But he wanted me to read it because he just wanted an opinion from somebody, and he knew, like, I was somebody that could read the book.

Personal Faith Crisis and Staying in the Church

John Dehlin [00:24:43] And this is before or after your wife had had her struggle?

Brian Johnston [00:24:46] This is before that started.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:24:49] She has struggled on and off, mildly. Like I said, it was more like, yeah, you know, I just don't feel like being involved in church. And I had been the same way sometimes, too. Not really kind of buying into having to do everything and always being there and all that stuff. So anyways, she had already had some issues. I already had some issues, but this is something I've always been fascinated with. So me and him started talking, and my wife decided to also read this book. And that, I think, was really kind of the match, as in a match lighting a fire. The match went to the tinder, and it just all burned up within a couple of weeks. You know, she. She had just, you know, lost all desire to be a part. You know, she's just lost her faith.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Was it the polygamy? What was it?

Brian Johnston [00:25:46] Well, you know, I mean, she had known about some of that. She had read some other stuff about pioneer women that she had been interested in and midwives and, you know, in the pioneer days and had come across stuff that, you know, just didn't really match up. You know, they would talk about some historical things. It wasn't the point of the book, but kind of knew things didn't match up. I would say her big issues are, you know, the polygamy, polyandry issue. And, you know, it just that really doesn't look very good for Joseph Smith at times. You know, you know, the issue with the young girls and so many different women and the propositioning. I think that. But also, you know, and I really picked up on this from talking to John Larsen over at Mormon Expression. He said this on one of his podcasts. He said there's two things that have to happen. You have to not like the church and you have to have doubts. If you only have one or the other, it's not going to fall apart. You know what? I think that's very insightful.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] It is. Yeah, that's true.

Brian Johnston [00:26:49] So she didn't like it. And then here's a big book full of all kinds of things to make you wonder, like what in the heck is going on. And you know, that book, the purpose is to paint religious people. And yeah, I know he says he's not aiming at Mormons or anything, but religious people are one step away from mass murdering people if their leader says so. You know, that's kind of the whole issue of the book.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Are you saying you agree with that or you're saying that's what he's saying?

Brian Johnston [00:27:20] I'm saying that that's what he's saying. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I understand how somebody can see that. I don't know. I don't want to get too much into analyzing that one book, but. So this was like in 2007, our life made a dramatic change. I was giving it. Well, I guess I wasn't always giving it my all, to be honest, but I decided to follow down this path. I was going to be a good father, a good husband. I was going to do my best to support my family. All this stuff I'm involved in the LDS Church, which I feel nurtures that I associate with other men who have the same ideal to try and be good fathers and good husbands and we're going to all be together and be together in heaven and all this stuff that just came to an end. My wife was so angry about everything and she felt like she had been harmed by the church and tricked and it was all a big fraud. And if I stay in the church, I am a part of

John Dehlin [00:28:40] the complicit.

Brian Johnston [00:28:42] I'm complicit and not just in this general sense that, and I understand people get angry about this stuff, but we're not talking about just complicit in this general idea that the church harms the world. I'm harming her, my wife. And if I don't leave I, you know, she's saying she doesn't think we can stay together and how could I know so much about the church and ethically still stay and all this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] So were you trying to be the apologist and explain why polygamy wasn't so troublesome or why polyandry shouldn't be so disturbing, or were you trying to nuance her faith and help her reach a new Fowler stage? Any of that?

Brian Johnston [00:29:33] Well, honestly, at the time it was such a shock that I had no idea what to do. I had no idea who to turn to. I couldn't talk to my family, my normal support network. I didn't even know if I couldn't talk to my parents or. There's nobody at church. There's nobody with the calling of what to do when you're spouse freaks out calling. I knew most members of the church aren't comfortable with this stuff. So I mean, at first I'm thinking, I'm just trying to keep all together. Our kids were going, they went to early morning seminary, they went to weekly activities. We most of the time went to church. They had this whole view of, you know, how life was, you know, they would. We were part of this whole thing. And you know, now she's saying how evil the church is and we all have to leave and it's harming the kids and, And I know it tore me up inside because I knew how much it hurt her and how angry she was. And the kids see this, they don't know what to do. And you know, within the world of Mormonism, what happens when somebody stops believing? I mean, they're not going to be with you. There's all these baggage, like they're never going to see God again. This whole idea that we have to obey so we can once again see Heavenly Father. Well, so what does it mean when you stop believing? Does that mean that person's never going to see God again? They're not going to be with me in the afterlife. It was like this. We had a range of kids from at that point 16 down to about 4 years old. Older kids, I think they were processing it kind of somewhere in between like their mom had died or that we were getting a divorce. They just got really quiet and wouldn't talk to us and had no. It was just so tough. And I had nowhere to turn. I actually liked. I was surfing around the Internet looking for. There was some article by this guy. I wish I could remember his name now, but it had nothing to do with this subject. It was about a study of people taking antidepressants in Utah or something like that. At the end, in some of the footnotes, the guy who wrote it talked about how his wife had left the church. And I tracked this guy down just to find somebody, say, hey, what did you do? I have no idea what to do. So, yeah, I mean, I talked to him and then I found this Faces Eastboard totally by chance and got involved with them. But, you know, it's a tough struggle. And as far as you asked the question about what did I do to try and fix that, well, I don't know if that's like, the best first response is to jump in and try and fix somebody. I couldn't play the part of the apologist because I have never really been that traditional of a member of the church. I mean, I can't. That's not really my approach. And I guess I knew some of this stuff. My response was to dig in. And it's like, okay, well, I have really got to understand this stuff. So I started reading stuff online and buying all the books by Michael Quinn and Richard Bushman and Fawn Brody and pouring through all that stuff just because I had to know. I mean, this is something that's tearing my family apart and affecting me day in and day out, affecting my kids, all that stuff. So, yeah, I can't say I had any plan at first because it's not like I had gone, okay, well, when we're almost 40 years old, life is going to fall apart. So let's have a plan in place that I'll be able to deal with this. And, yeah, I don't know.

Choosing Not to Leave Despite Doubts

John Dehlin [00:33:37] So what kept you from reading Fawn Brody and Bushman deciding too, that you felt like it was a fraud and just checking out with your wife and taking the kids with you?

Brian Johnston [00:33:48] Yeah, that's a good question. I think there was a fundamental difference in my experience versus hers. I have had a positive, transformative experience in church. I've also had many. I hate to use the word mystical, but that's like the proper academic term. Mystic experiences of like, that one thing I mentioned about deciding to go on a mission, I have always felt a connection or that there's the existence of something out there, the divine. To me, it's like a light or a sound that is kind of everywhere around. And if I just quiet myself, I can really feel this presence or, I don't know, we would slap a label on it and call it God. I don't know a whole lot in life, but I can't be honest with myself and say that I don't experience these things. So I have this sense of the importance for me, maybe it's just the way I'm made, that's the way God made me, is that I feel a sense of the religious and the spiritual. And it's important to me. It's part of who I am. And on top of it, within Mormonism, I gave it a shot and it worked for me. I was a miserable person. And the thought of me giving up all that is to me going back to who I was and for better or for worse, whether I actually accomplish all the ideals or not. I like how my practice of spirituality within Mormonism has transformed me. Not to sound egotistical, but I kind of like the way I've become. I didn't like the way I was before. So that's an emotional component that I think is extremely important in religion, is, like we said, you have to like it on some level. And I like it. I like what it's done for me. I think it's a very good support network. Now, I gotta be honest, I mean, there's a lot of tough, controversial stuff in our history and I totally understand why people have a problem with it. And it's. That's not anti Mormon stuff. That's stuff in our own history, by our own historians, by people that lived it and experienced it.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Published by the Church.

Brian Johnston [00:36:27] Published by the Church. So here's what I'm gonna get at. And I know this makes some people a little crazy when I describe it this way. Like it gets them upset in a way. But I've experienced enough things in my life that I thought were true and then found out that weren't and have to make the best of it. That when I found out that perhaps everything isn't perfect in the church, to me it was like, oh, well, that figures. Everything else is messed up. Why not?

John Dehlin [00:37:05] That, that's great, that's great.

Brian Johnston [00:37:07] But I mean, some examples is, you know, I lived as a young person, you know, this very nice upper middle class life. And that was, should be perfect, right? I mean, you know, I had a house and food and went to a nice school and all that stuff, but I was a miserable person. It didn't work. And I saw all kinds of miserable people around me. I went on a mission and dedicated to myself to that. But there were a lot of dysfunctional people in my mission, including some of the leadership. And I don't mean to bad talk them too much because I honestly think most people are doing the best they can with what they have. But I didn't buy the line then either, that that was it. And then I joined the army. And the army has this ideal, we're going to be great and we're going to spread democracy throughout the world and we're going to make the world a better place and spread American ideals. And I don't want to sound too unpatriotic because I really do love this country and I did serve, but I was in an intelligence capacity and really saw like how things really worked. And there's just, there's a lot of dysfunctional people there too. You know, I mean, every place that I have gone has had lot of good things about it and a lot of messed up things about it and some inspiring people and some people that I honestly think were a little cuckoo or, you know, just not, not everything that you would think they were. And so when I find out, well, that, you know, the church isn't everything that I thought it was growing up. Yeah, that makes sense. But the thing to me is, Is to try and just see things as they are and deal with them as best I can. I mean, if I really let myself be the way I was before, like I said, when I was an unhappy person, I dwelled all the time on how messed up the world was. You know, we're all going to die from a nuclear missile and you know, the economy is going to tank and whatever the problems are. But that's, that's a, that's a decision that, that I make is, is what I, what I see around me is. And like I said this, I don't know what I, what is around me. And this kind of goes back to like an esoteric kind of thought. Is that as within, so without, as above, so below?

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Say it again slowly.

Brian Johnston [00:39:54] I can't even remember. It's a really old saying and it comes from medieval esoteric wisdom, but actually dates way back further than that. It's something from hermetic literature. It's as within, so without, as above, so below. Meaning that. Well, I mean, there's many meanings of it, but what you find in the world around you is a reflection of what's inside of you. And what is on the earth is sort of a mirror of what's in heaven, or maybe in other words, what's also on a personal level. What's in your mind is what gets expressed in your body and your gut. You know, your mind being above and your body being below. But what it's getting at is there really is the world's not a black and white place. There's not all true or all false, and I would even argue there's not even shades of gray. There's actually this huge Technicolor spectrum of possibilities. And what you see, what I see in the world around me is what I decide to see. I can see all the horrible things and that can make me angry. And it's not to say that those things aren't there, but I can also choose to take a look at all the positive and beautiful things around me. And that's something that comes from within and what it is that I want. Sure enough, guess what? Everywhere around me is what I find. You know, if you know a lot of people that. And like I said, I totally understand this anger and, and the shock of finding out all this stuff is different and there are messed up people in the church that will tell you the wrong things and they should know better and say better and all that stuff. But you know, if I found that as I develop love within myself, I find loving people around me, and if I'm angry, I find all kinds of reasons to be offended around me. Does that make any sense?

Processing Anger and Grief Toward the Church

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Sure, of course.

Brian Johnston [00:42:08] So, but.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] But you would also agree that there's legitimate anger.

Brian Johnston [00:42:12] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] That there's anger that, that you actually have. Well, maybe a Buddhist Zen philosopher like the Dalai Lama would say all anger is controllable and a reflection of you, but there's reasonable anger. That's absolutely not the responsibility of the person experiencing it too. Right?

Brian Johnston [00:42:32] Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's nice to say all anger is your own fault, but that still doesn't eliminate the fact that it sucks. You know, I mean, we're gonna feel that stuff. And I mean, I'll give you an example. I could be totally pissed off about the church. You know, I went on this mission and like I mentioned before, I dove right into having a family. I made decisions that on the surface of it would be very stupid financial decisions that put me back in my career many years. You know, I have this huge family with. Honestly, an economic environment is very difficult to have a big family, have a mother who stays at home and have a home and the car and all this stuff. I could be really mad that, you know, I followed that. You know, I listened to the church and I said, look, you know, we're going to have kids and everything will turn out. And guess what? It hasn't really turned out. I mean, I can't complain. I've got a roof over my head and I've got Plenty of food to eat. But, I mean, I could be really angry about that and I would have every reason to be.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Right.

Brian Johnston [00:43:50] But I don't know. I mean, was I. Here's the part of deciding what to see is do I decide that there are evil people out there that were trying to trick me? Yeah. I don't know. But what I see is there was a bunch of people doing the best that they thought, trying to teach me what they thought was right. I mean, like, my parents gave me most of these ideas, and they weren't out to get me. They don't. They don't want me to be miserable and to fail, but they just didn't have information that was correct, but they really believed it, and they still believe it. And, you know, that works for them. They probably don't understand why it doesn't work for me, but it just doesn't, you know? Yeah. So, you know, it's been. Been a rough ride over the last couple of years. I understand the anger. There's stuff out there. But also a thing to me is, like I said, just to try and detach and see things as they are. And when I go to church on Sunday, I have yet to hear a lesson about blood atonement or racism. I'm not saying that nobody's ever made comments or anything, but all the things that are the hardest to swallow, the church has already moved away from. And even though they may be terrible at apologizing or talking about it or acknowledging it in their own partially functional way, have moved away from all these issues. Like, if you don't want to practice polygamy, guess what, you can stay in the LDS Church. I mean, in fact, if you do, you're going to get kicked out. You know, I mean, if. Even if you believe in it, even if you. Yeah, even if you believe in it, you know, so, yeah, I don't. I don't know. There are really tough issues out there. But I. I would say look at what, you know, I look at what my experience is on Sunday. I look at what my experience is. Fulfilling a calling. The rest of the stuff is completely fascinating. I love it. I've always got a book or two on all these subjects that I'm in the middle of reading and studying and talking about. But the important thing to me is what am I experiencing and seeing that as it is? And is it a positive effect in my life? Yes. For me it is.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest [00:47:21] The sun gone down Darkness beyond me my restless stone yet in my dreams I'd be Nearer my Go to thee. Nearer my Go to Nearer to Thee. There let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou sendest me in mercy angels to beckon me Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee. Then with my waking thoughts bright with thy praise out of my stony griefs Bethel I raised so by my woes to be Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee. O Rif, on joyful wing Cleaving the sky, sun, moon and stars upward I fly still all my soul song shall be Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee.

Brian Johnston [00:49:29] Sam.

Introduction to StayLDS.com and Its Purpose

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 142

Brian Johnston [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Well, Brian, this is going to be kind of a weird question, but I think it's an okay lead into this next topic, which is the Stale DS mission and the stale to this website. So I'm going to ask kind of a weird question. Almost gonna seem narcissistic, but I think it's relevant. How did you and I. Remind me how you and I came to be connected.

Brian Johnston [00:00:38] Okay. Yeah, that crisis where everything fell apart a couple years ago, I was looking around for anybody, you know, to talk to. I had purchased. No, I think I listened to your podcast, the Richard Bushman one on Rough Stone Rolling, and I think I sent you an email and Richard Bushman copied back and it was really very small, but you just said, hey, hang in there. If you want to talk, give me a call. And Richard Bushman had sent something to me too, and I responded back. That was the first connection. It wasn't really anything significant, but yeah, I started listening to a bunch of your podcasts. I got really involved in Faces east, trying to think of what else that's. I think the big one after that was getting involved in the Open Mormon movement. I don't know if you want to talk about that in the podcast at all.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] No, we don't have to, but that's

Brian Johnston [00:01:43] enough to say, yeah. And I was involved over at New Order Mormon kind of posting things, and that sort of led to our collaboration. You started up that Stay LDS site, but you had a lot of projects going on and that sounded something really like. It was really inspiring to me to work on a concept like that. So I dove into that and started trying to find some other people to help out with it and start organizing just all the framework and mechanics behind the scenes of setting up the board and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Well, let's dive right in then. What's staleds.com about? Why were you interested in it? And give our listeners an overview of all that.

Brian Johnston [00:02:39] Let me start by why I'm interested in this, because I do spend a significant amount of time on it in addition to working and family and all that stuff. I so feel for the people that are angry and this is all falling apart for. Because I know how that feels and it is so hard to make a transition of getting out of that. It feels like such a rut. I just feel like this is something that I can do. I may not be able to fix the whole World, the world's a great big messed up place. But I can at least try to help some people in my immediate family, my friends, to just get out of that place where, you know, it hurts so much. Because there really is. Can be like a light at the end of the tunnel which leads into. The purpose of Stale DS is not to get everybody to get crammed back into the box of the way they used to be, because there really is. Once you start this, there's. There's no going backwards. I mean, you're out of the bottle.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] You can't ever put it back again.

Brian Johnston [00:03:57] Yeah, I mean, I can't. I hate to say anything's impossible, but I really don't know of any or many people that just decided, oh yeah, what was I thinking? You know, I'm just gonna forget all this stuff that I know now and just jump right back into the box. So knowing that there's no way back, you gotta find a way forward. I became a big fan of the James Fowler Stages of Faith and read the book. And like you said, me and you did a couple of podcasts about that over at Mormon Expression. Stay lds. Like I said, maybe sometimes it's good to go over what it's not. It's not an apologetic website, although it is positive about the church. So we're not trying to convince anybody there that they're wrong and that the church is really right. Does that make any sense? I mean, somehow a lot of times it's confusing that anything that's positive is apologetic. And I suppose maybe it is in that vein, but it's not so much trying to validate the traditional beliefs and saying, yes, this is right no matter what, because we quite often. Well, for one thing, nobody has the right answer on Stale DS because once you hit this thing, this brick wall that you crash into, it is a completely personal journey after that. There's no one true answer after that as to what you're going to do. And that's really, really important because that's the way it should be. You're on your own and finding, bringing that external authority back into yourself and building whatever faith it is that you're going to have going forward, whether that's atheism or you go to evangelical Christianity or Buddhism. But guess what? There is an option. You can stay Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And just as a. I don't know if this is a disclaimer, but it's a point that I think is really important and it's something that I swear it's taking me. I don't know, it took me 40 years to learn. And that's that, like, there was always this part of me that looked on those who decided to leave the church as taking the inferior option, as taking the weakest and least noble, least enlightened of all options. And it wasn't until like, five, six months ago where I had to say, no, Leaving can be just as legitimate as staying, even though I want to stay and I want everyone else to stay.

Guest [00:06:49] Do you.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] Do you feel like you're at the point where you also agreed with that? Not that you should, but for me, that was an important step in actually being able to work with people again, completely letting go my desires for them and no longer judging those who feel like leaving was their path for health.

Brian Johnston [00:07:11] That is such a huge important point and such an important perspective to gain. And I want to, if we can keep coming back to this theme of personal transformation, but that is a transformative experience where we finally let go of needing to control what other people are doing and in order to validate what we're doing. And like you said, you know what, leaving the church is a hard thing to do. That is not the easy choice. And you know what I found really inspiring as I listened to your podcast with Sean McCraney. And you know what? That guy had to leave the church in order to progress further as an individual. And I believe still wholeheartedly in this concept of eternal progression, even if I'm not a literal orthodox believer in the LDS church. But when I heard his story, I was so touched by that. And I thought, you know, there was a person who really needed to leave in order to become more whole. And that is totally fine.

Guest [00:08:18] Right?

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:08:19] Because you know what? Because that's the important thing is to have that experience of transforming, not what membership card is in your wallet.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] Right.

Brian Johnston [00:08:29] So, yeah, I mean, is it okay to leave? It's totally, you know, if that's. It's. That's what people have to realize, this is up to them now.

Guest [00:08:37] Right.

Brian Johnston [00:08:38] You know, once. Once you have hit this point and you are one of these people and not every. And that's another important thing I think, towards finding peace with this is not everybody is wired to need to go through what we go through. But if you are, if you are, you know it, you know it, and it's gonna happen and you gotta do something with it. Because if you stay in that spot where it's painful, it's just painful.

Guest [00:09:08] Yeah.

Brian Johnston [00:09:09] But you know, everybody's got. If you're one of these people, that's wired that is going to do this. You're gonna hit that and you're gonna have to be angry. And that's okay, right? You're gonna have to. It's painful to wrench all this stuff out of you so that you have a clean slate to build something that's your own. Again, that's not something that got handed down to you or that was told to you that you feel like you had to do. Whatever it is you're gonna do from this point on is your own responsibility and make it good, you know, trade up. But yeah, so Stale DS is not about trying to convince people that everyone has to be in the church. We're not trying. And another important thing is we're not trying to form a new splinter group of reform Mormonism. We don't have the answer. So anybody that comes to our site, we don't have the new one true answer. We're not there to tell the church what to do because, you know, like church leadership. This isn't, you know, our site has nothing to do officially with the LDS church. It's just a bunch of people who care about other people that are going through this. So, yeah, we're not there to tell them what to do. We're not there to tell people we don't have the answer. But if you want to kick around ideas, there's a whole bunch of really safe people that enjoy kicking around ideas in a positive atmosphere that nobody's gonna freak out, nobody's gonna call you nasty names, you know, or say that you're going to hell or, you know, for believing what you believe. It's just a lot of other people that are in brawl in the same boat, you know, if we can help each other out, that's cool.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] If I can. If I can just speaking your defense a little bit. Not your defense, but it's not just a couple cool guys kicking stuff around. It's not only people who have been through this issue. They're extremely unique because I would say that a lot of people who go through this situation end up leaving or wanting to leave. So the number of people who go through this and want to stay are not legion. At least I found them to be rare. And not only are these people unique in that aspect, but they're unique in that they've now been spending years helping people minimize the collateral damage. The 1400 ways that they can poke themselves in the eye as they're going through this process.

Brian Johnston [00:11:53] And.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] And you can poke yourself in the eye. You can. The stakes are high. You can lose your wife, your husband, you can lose your children, you can lose your job. You can, you know, become depressed. The stakes are so high that there are absolutely quantifiable, proven methods and approaches that you can take, whether you end up staying or leaving, to minimize the collateral damage that you do to yourself and to others. And. And these people there in the forum know a lot of those tips and tricks and are able to offer them to you at a time when your emotions might lead you to do things that aren't healthy for you or those around you.

Brian Johnston [00:12:39] That's. That's a really good point because, yeah, I mean, unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to see it, Mormonism is not just something you do for an hour on Sunday. It's a culture. It's everything in life. If you're an active member of the church, either for many years or your whole life, that's your culture. And when you exit, or if you decide to exit or think about it, like you said, it's not just like, I'm just not going to. That's just not, I'm going to do something else on Sunday for an hour. It's everything. I mean, it permeates every aspect of life. How you form your view of life, your purpose of life, your reason for living, your reason for doing the things that you do. That's not an easy thing to untangle. And you make a very good point. It's not a majority of people that decide to stay once they hit that crisis. But I personally think, and obviously because, you know, I help run that site, I think a lot more people could stay if they could find ways of adapting. And at stale ds, we call those reconciliation strategies. It doesn't mean that you go back to believing the way you did before, but maybe there are new, different ways of using Mormonism in your spiritual journey that is tolerable and ways that you can filter out, you know, take, you know, it's a cafeteria approach. You can eat the dishes that you do like and not tear yourself up about passing by the broccoli or the brussels sprouts.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Well, let's dive. Let's dive into those in a second, but let's begin. Let's begin. If you don't mind, by just spending three minutes on the main reasons that you see as to why people leave, there's usually, I can name five or six. Why would anyone consider leaving? Just for those who, like, have no clue for why someone would hit this crisis. What are the main buckets?

Reasons Members Consider Leaving the Church

Brian Johnston [00:14:51] Let's see. A big one is it's not true. I guess. I know this is going to be a very controversial statement and I. I'm sure to catch fire from both sides of the spectrum. And once again, anything that I say is just my own personal beliefs and half of what I think about is nonsense half the time anyways. But the church is not true.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] What? You are not allowed to say that on my program. No one is ever allowed to say that on my program. I've never said that.

Brian Johnston [00:15:28] Can I get away with it? Because I still find that it's true. And that's going to be. Like I said, that's sound like a crazy paradox. But who was it? I'm sorry, I'm bad on these names. Either Leonard Arrington or Eugene England. The church is as true as the gospel. Yeah, that's one of those guys. Yeah. I would take that one step further and say that the gospel is as true as a ham sandwich. A ham sandwich will stop my hunger. It will nourish me, it will help my body rebuild itself. It does all these things. And like I said, these are just my personal views and this is what works for me at the moment. But there are a lot of stories, and I may be approaching this more from like a Joseph Campbell mythology perspective. There's a lot of stories in the church that we all thought were literally true. And actually they could be. I don't want to eliminate this for anybody else, but like I said, I'm just saying the way I see it. But you've got scriptures full of stories, the Old Testament, many of those really aren't actually true, but they're such valuable stories that convey a truth that the Old Testament, for example, has been passed down for almost 3,000 years from one generation to another. It's been reused over and over. There's something in it valuable enough that it has survived the test of time for thousands and thousands of years as truth, even though Jonah probably didn't get swallowed by a whale and spit out on the shore. And maybe Moses didn't really exist. And you know, all the stuff that even people of the Jewish faith that are less literal will admit. So to use a great Mormon example, is the Liahona that Lehi and his family were wandering around in the wilderness with. Is the Liahona true? I mean, I don't know. It's pointing at the place, at the Promised Land. The Promised Land is a true spiritual concept, but the Liahona is just a ham sandwich. You know what I'm saying? So that's what I'm getting At is saying, and this is, like I said, this is a reconciliation strategy for me. The church doesn't have to be. The stories in the church don't have to be true as long as they convey the transcendent truth that helps me progress in this kind of hero's journey of life, of spiritual transformation. So there you go. There's the theology of Brian the Madman.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] So why does that lead people to want to leave the church?

Brian Johnston [00:18:15] Because the truth. The church, isn't true.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Okay, okay.

Brian Johnston [00:18:18] Yeah.

Brian Johnston [00:18:18] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] So you're saying that they. They were operating under a false. They were kind of set up under a false premise to. To look at the church as a binary thing which. Which almost sets the church up to fail because it's. It's on or off, all or nothing. And you're saying that's the wrong scale upon which to measure. It's the wrong criteria and the wrong scale to be measuring things by.

Brian Johnston [00:18:45] Yeah, here's like, here's a good example. The Book of Mormon. There's so much controversy about the Book of Mormon. Where did it come from? I don't know. I love studying it. You know, that. That historical aspect, you know. You know, growing up, there was Joseph Smith and God appeared to him, and Angel Moroni gave him gold plates and he translated this miraculous language and all this. You know, we've got that story, and it's, It's. It's a great story. It's full of meaning and richness. But then we find out from journals that, well, no, he wasn't actually looking through these magic glasses. It was a peep stone and a hat. And that's freaking weird.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] It's only weird because we expected something else.

Brian Johnston [00:19:31] That's the important thing is we had expectations. That doesn't necessarily eliminate the truth of the ideas. It's just that we expected it to be different. And I find over and over again that my expectations don't turn out the way I want them to be in life. So there's a possibility that.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Now I get what you're seeing.

Brian Johnston [00:19:52] There's a possibility that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon. I personally don't know how. I mean, I still think it's a pretty miraculous kind of thing. However it happened, whether he channeled this and this was in his psyche, I don't know. I've let go of the need to be sure and say I know beyond a shadow of doubt with all the fiber of my being, you know, that's okay. But. So there's. There's an expectation, you know, in A story that it was one way and that one way that we expected was not true. So in that way, it's not true.

Guest [00:20:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] That's reason number one.

Brian Johnston [00:20:30] Yeah. Some people don't like church. I mean, it could be boring. There's people there that say things that are irritating sometimes. There are people there that say outrageous things sometimes. Some people just don't like that. To some extent. That's just how you are. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. But, you know, maybe that's not a good fit for you.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:21:05] That's a personal decision to make and I understand that.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Okay. Not enjoying church. Number two.

Brian Johnston [00:21:09] Not enjoying church. Trying to think of what else. Why people, History. Well, I mean, that kind of falls into the whole truth thing, I suppose, in a way, but I mean that we've. We've built up a history that really doesn't, you know, there's like the correlated history and then there's the messy history, and there's some pretty wide gulfs there sometimes. But that, once again, that comes back to this kind of ethical dilemma of are you going to be a part of this big lie? Which is a negative way of viewing it. I understand that, you know, people have a sense of integrity and actually, you know, the people that end up coming to this kind of crisis of faith, like you've mentioned other times, it's not because you don't care. It's because you care so much about the truth. You have that passion to be authentic and find the truth and find the real meaning that leads a lot of people to this crisis of faith.

Guest [00:22:21] Yep.

Brian Johnston [00:22:24] Gosh. I'm trying to think of some other reasons, but a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] A couple others. I'll set you up. How about the prayed? How about the Moroni's promise and the disappointment?

Brian Johnston [00:22:34] Oh, yeah, that's. That's just a. That's a tough issue to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Describe.

Brian Johnston [00:22:42] I mean, describe it. Moroni's promise, if ye shall read these things and pray, the truth of it will be known to you. Or the passage from James that if you ask God with a sincere heart, he'll make all things known unto you. And you know what? People try that and sometimes it really just doesn't work. I know people, I've heard their stories of. They've tried so hard in church. They did everything right and they fasted and they prayed and they were super righteous and wanted to have that experience, and it never came. And that's real. That happens to people. What do you do?

John Dehlin [00:23:30] And another derivative of that is when somebody has an unexpected equivalent to a spiritual experience in a setting that is non religious. So for me, it was feeling what I thought was the Holy Ghost while watching the Muppet movie and wondering, wait a minute, that was just. That was the Holy Ghost and it's the Muppet movie. And of course you can say, well, God can speak to you through the Muppet Movie. But if you're a thinking person, your next question is, then, well, then how do I know that what I felt when I was at church was necessarily leading me to conclude that the church was true, but just that the church, like the Muffet movie, was a vehicle for inspiration? And what are the other vehicles for inspiration? And all of a sudden, you don't necessarily have to discount that experience as being just emotion, although that's what some people do. But what other people do is say, wait a minute now, I don't know what those feelings mean anymore. I used to think those feelings meant the church was true, but now maybe they mean something else, maybe even more expansive.

Brian Johnston [00:24:48] Yeah, I agree with that. And that's a huge devastation when people come kind of to that realization that, Like you said, they have this feeling and that informs them some kind of factual truth. Like, I feel good when I pray about the Book of Mormon. Therefore, the Book of Mormon is a historical record of a people who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. A lot of people that haven't gone through the crisis of faith, that works for them. But once you kind of work into this thing where you're starting to, you got to really find out for yourself, honestly, that's not really a very appropriate way of coming to epistemological truth. Like the factual truth of whether the Book of Mormon is a historical record through an emotional experience is probably honestly not that applicable. But on the other hand, that same experience perhaps does point us to something of emotional truth. You know, when you see something beautiful and you're inspired, maybe that is, you know, a truth in the sense of beauty, you can have that same experience about the Book of Mormon. I personally think that there's some beautiful ideas in the Book of Mormon. So if I pray about the Book of Mormon to know if it's true, and I feel a good feeling, maybe that can also still be. Indicate that there's beautiful truths in that. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to. I hate to, like, almost like jump in and try and solve all these problems, you know, you don't have to. I just want to. It's Just too expansive of a thing. But that, yes, that totally happens to people and that is a big problem. And that totally sets people up for a crisis of faith. Because once you, you know all this all along you've thought you've determined truth through this feeling that you've had and now you know that the Muppet movie is not true because it's Jim Henson and a bunch of puppets. So that must mean now that the Book of Mormon has no truth in it. And that's a, that is a logical and rational conclusion to make.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Right. And the last I'll just throw out there is kind of the social political thing like being a Democrat in the church or being for social justice in the church or you know, the Prop 8 kind of thing. I've seen that lead a lot of people out. Yeah, the good thing about feminists being a feminist.

Brian Johnston [00:27:23] Yeah, the great thing about, or all those things, the great thing about being in the Mormon Church is that it's a highly organized community and in a lot of ways very unified. And the bad thing about being in the LDS Church is it's a highly organized community that's very focused and unified. So, wow, what do you do when all of a sudden the vast majority of people around you are running off in one direction? And this is now the one true way to fight Prop 8 in California. And you have a loved one who struggles with their identity and fitting into being loved and accepted. That, you know, and that's very real to you. And your church is, you know, seen as fighting against that. That's, that's, that's tough. I mean, that's good. That's gonna throw, that's gonna throw you for a loop and make you really question whether you want to be a part of that community.

Guest [00:28:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] And tied to that is a final thing that I just thought of that's really important. Some people experience abuse within the church or are of a minority population, like homosexual or, you know, a single mom. And so either they just don't fit in socially, culturally, or, you know, they're abused by their bishop or by their scout leader or their priesthood bearing husband. And all of a sudden the church gets associated with trauma and pain or violence even. And for those type of people, going to church literally means reliving and invoking horrendously terrible pain or agony.

Brian Johnston [00:29:14] Yeah, my heart just goes out to people that have had to go through that. What can you say? Maybe if the pain and that trauma is like that and going to church causes you to relive it, that's Gosh, that's a compelling reason to distance yourself. You know, I mean, can you. I can't blame someone for really exploring needing to distance themselves and leave. That's tough.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:29:48] And then that does happen, right?

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Oh, yeah, it does, for sure. And those are the people who get

Guest [00:29:53] most mad at me when I've ever

John Dehlin [00:29:55] talked about stale ds. Because for them, like, staying is just beyond them.

Guest [00:30:00] It's.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] It's not. It's not healthy.

Brian Johnston [00:30:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] It's unhealthy to stay for them.

Brian Johnston [00:30:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Which is hard for a traditional Mormon to even conceive of.

Brian Johnston [00:30:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Even conceptualize that the church could actually be damaging for somebody.

Brian Johnston [00:30:16] Yeah. Because the. Well, the person that it's hard to conceptualize is somebody that it's really working for. And they. They think, well, what do you mean? You know, I'm having a wonderful experience. How can you say that I'm evil? You know, But, I mean, I totally get it, you know, you.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Well, of course, the purpose of this wasn't to belabor that, but I guess I somehow feel that that's an important component to the next discussion, which is the most important part, at least one of the two most important parts of this whole podcast. And that's what I'm not. You've already told us why you stay, and I'm sure that there's going to be some overlap.

Brian Johnston [00:30:52] But.

Why Some Members Choose to Stay

John Dehlin [00:30:53] But for the people who do choose to stay, what are some of the main reasons that they. That. That after a crisis of faith, after the disillusionment or disappointment, even after deciding that it's not true in this binary, literalistic sense, what are the reasons? What are the credible, compelling reasons? Because I have close friends to me who say, look, if you don't believe it, if you can't sign up to everything that is said by the brethren, if you can't say that Nephi actually existed, that Joseph Smith literally saw God and the Father just as the sixth version of his story testifies. If you can't agree with Prop 8 and be a good Republican or whatever, people's perception of what it means to be an authentic orthodox Mormon, if you can't sign up for that, get out.

Guest [00:31:50] Don't pollute it.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Don't just treat it like a social club. This is not a game. Get out. And don't let the door hit you on the way out. And I'm asking you, like, what is it? What are the main things that lead people to decide that they can't just run away, that they don't want to run away?

Brian Johnston [00:32:11] Yeah, wow, great question. Why would people decide they don't want to leave? Well, certainly a key one is that all of their family, you know, their spouse, their children, their parents, their brothers and sisters are members of the church. And on some level it's a cultural sort of thing and it would tear. It would just, you know, tear things up socially if they left. Now there's another site that deals with staying because you kind of have to stay in order to keep the peace. Stay. LDS has kind of a different focus on it. It's not. We don't want people. We're not trying to encourage people to stay as sort of a lie to themselves just to keep the peace. It's really about figuring out a way to enjoy staying and using it as continuing to use Mormonism as a spiritual tool in your journey. That doesn't mean it's the only one. You can pull in stuff from any other tradition. You can do whatever else you want. But is it possible to still keep using the things that you find beautiful in Mormonism? So there's one reason to stay is you kind of need to, but instead of just doing it because you have to maybe to try and find a way that you can actually use. The Mormon Church is just a church. It's a religion and it should be used by everybody, even to traditional people, as a tool for personal transformation. So can you find maybe alternative ways that didn't match your expectations before, but new ways in order to make that whole paradigm, that whole. You live. I'm just going to pick an example. But you live in the Salt Lake Valley and everyone you know and everything you do is related to the church. There's certainly a practical element to finding a way to stay and enjoy staying, not just in spite of it, but

Guest [00:34:17] for my traditionally believing listeners out there, to hear the church described as a tool is going to be highly offensive and just not resonant with them. So how do you

Brian Johnston [00:34:33] just.

Guest [00:34:33] It seems immoral and wrong. The church is either, like Gordon B. Hinckley said, it's either exactly what it claims to be and the one and only true church with exclusive authority, or it's the biggest fraud that mankind has ever made. And how do you navigate that?

Brian Johnston [00:34:54] I think he was wrong. I know that's. I don't know if there's. There's no way this is an important thing. Is the target audience for stale DS is not people who are happy with the church. So I have no way of explaining orthodox traditional believers. Oh yeah, that's a better way of saying it. Orthodox Traditional believers, they will come to stay LDs and they will be offended. I'm sorry, but we're not talking to you guys. You already have a whole church and a whole church leadership, you know, in Salt Lake City and General Conference twice a year and all that stuff.

Guest [00:35:34] That's for you.

Brian Johnston [00:35:35] It's for you. Yeah.

Guest [00:35:38] Not that those things aren't for us, too.

Brian Johnston [00:35:40] No, it's not. I'm not. I'm not saying that any of that stuff is necessarily bad or useless.

Guest [00:35:47] I think they're awesome. But that's another story.

Brian Johnston [00:35:50] I love some of the talks. And guess what? Some of the talks I don't like. And sometimes like that thing that, you know, President Hinckley said. I'm sorry, but he was. I think he was wrong, but he wasn't talking to me as the audience. I mean, I really wish he hadn't said something like that, but I'm okay with that. It's all right if he's wrong sometimes for me, because, you know, if I treated everything in my life like it had to be 100% good without a flaw, or I throw it in the garbage and light it on fire, I would have nothing in my life. I would not be married. I would not have kids. I would not go to work in the morning. I would not get out of bed because life is such a mess that if I only belonged to perfect organizations and associated with perfect people, I would live in a cave.

Guest [00:36:39] Right. Okay. So practical reasons to stay for the

John Dehlin [00:36:44] church is one thing.

Brian Johnston [00:36:46] Yeah. I mean, let's face it, sometimes it's just more practical. And if you have to do it, you might as well find a way of enjoying it and continuing on your spiritual journey. That's where stay LDS addresses.

Guest [00:36:58] Okay. Other reasons.

Brian Johnston [00:37:00] Other reasons to stay. You've had a positive experience. I mean, my story. I had a positive experience in the church. I just like it. I think there is a lot of truth in the church, even if it's behind the symbols. And like I said, I'm saying that more from a Joseph Campbell kind of mythological perspective. But when I studied all kinds of stuff outside the church, when I, as the church says, sought out the best books, there's all kinds of thinkers throughout history that I feel so connected with. And when I see somebody like Joseph Smith going and gathering all these things from all these different sources and bringing them together, I find it inspiring. But I also don't have to. I don't have to eat every single dish. So there's another reason to stay is that you just find it Inspiring. And even if a lot of stuff is frustrating, how do you work through that? How do you become comfortable with, like you said, the people that are saying, you know what, you have to do this or you have to do that. And my response is, I can do whatever I want. I mean, that's as. Listening to those people is as bad as listening to the people at church saying that, you know, I have to do this and I have to do that or, you know, whatever. I don't know. I mean, nobody's come to kick me out yet. So I love the church. I like being there. I like the people. And like, was. I did that one example in history where somebody was brought up for excommunication because of their beliefs. And Joseph Smith said, you know what? I don't fault a man for his beliefs as long as he's putting a shoulder to the wheel and helping to make the world a better place. I'm kind of putting my own spin on this. He's all right with me. Don't excommunicate him. So hopefully there's a place for the oddballs like me in the pews next to everybody else.

Guest [00:39:10] You can even make a scriptural case that the Doctrine and Covenants talks about different gifts and some are given to know and some are given to not know. I. I use that not for me, but for believers to say the Scriptures allow for non believers. The other example that I give that came out in Jackie's podcast was this notion of, I think it was Omni in the Book of Mormon who actually was a evil. Not evil, but like a non righteous, non believing, almost person who is able to not only, you know, pass on the plates, but even write in them and have his name attached to him. And so there's clearly a place for the unorthodox in the church.

Brian Johnston [00:39:50] Yeah. Within our official canon, there is room for diversity, because a few vocal people tell me that it's not. Well, I don't care. I've been in this church my whole life. I served a mission for the church. I've been putting in my time. This is my church too. So maybe they need to get out.

Guest [00:40:11] Right, right.

Brian Johnston [00:40:12] Okay.

Brian Johnston [00:40:14] Other reasons to stay. Well, that kind of covers the big ones, is that people have had a positive experience, they've had spiritual experiences that they feel in order to be authentic, they have to incorporate those spiritual experiences. You know, like all those kind of stories you hear from people that have had stuff like that.

Guest [00:40:37] There's kind of the tribe argument, which I think is related to what you said. But just this notion of how we experience, even conditioned to experience spirituality, like our spiritual language.

Brian Johnston [00:40:49] Yeah. A lot of people, you know, when they start this process of a crisis of faith, and honestly, I would really wholeheartedly recommend this to anybody, is go out and look around and see what else is there. But what, you know, people will go visit other churches, they will explore other avenues of religious thought. And what, you know, a lot of people come to realize is there's the same problems on the other side of the fence there. Well, the same kinds of problems. They're different problems. And they also find that they feel at home when they come back. They're like, ha, ha. You know, they come back to the LDS Church and give that a try and go, you know what? This is comfortable. This is what I grew up with. I know the language, I know the quirks. Some people argue. They say, well, you know, if religion is messed up, at least I know what's wrong with mine sort of thing. And you can deal with it. I think. I believe that a fundamental part of our humanity, of being, of experiencing a human life, there is certainly an intellectual portion, but there is an emotional, and I'll use the word from sacred geometry as an irrational portion of us. And we think in our modern scientific world that irrational equals bad. But what an irrational number is is really a number we can't comprehend because there's so many digits to it and it never repeats. So there's an irrational emotional component to being a human being. And if we don't explore that, we're not fully living our life. So the way that is explored, the way you tap into this great ideal of who we could be, is in my mind through spirituality and through religion. So it's so important to have something to be on the quest, you know, instead of just. And even if this, you know, I respect the decision, but even if it is just to walk away and say there's nothing but I don't know, you know, to deny this part of ourselves is to deny part of the human experience in my mind.

Guest [00:43:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] So it's not just a social club for you.

Guest [00:43:16] There's a spiritual component to your staying.

Brian Johnston [00:43:18] Yes. I understand on an intellectual level that what I am looking at is a bunch of metaphors and symbols. There's some historical truth. There's some stuff that's just stories. But what it is talking about, the thing on the other side of the symbol, I still find inspiring things like that. I'm a divine being on an eternal journey. That's a wonderful way to Experience life, that I can interact with the divine, that I have a noble purpose. All these things in Mormonism I found that have gathered together and to me it is true. Even though, like I said, I made a really bold statement before saying the church is not true, the church is true and the church is not true and the church is meaningless all at the same time.

Guest [00:44:10] And just exhilaratingly beautiful.

Brian Johnston [00:44:15] Yeah, I love it. I love being there. Half the people I'm sitting next to would totally not understand. And if I'm not careful and I blurt something out in elders quorum, everybody looks over and they're like, yeah, but it's beautiful for me to watch these people doing, they're doing the best with what they have. And I don't mean that like, oh, I'm so much better because I'm probably a bigger screw up than all of them together. But it's beautiful for me to see people trying and doing this stuff whether, you know, whether I know people fail and that's okay, you know, but people are trying. I learn. Actually I found that I am expanded when challenged. A great example was like last summer I volunteered for a couple days at girls camp and I bunked with a brother who was very straight laced orthodox. And I know I bugged the crap out of him because we had to stay together. We were talking a lot and nighttime rolls around and we're in this little cabin together, we're sharing and I'm read, you know, Rumi, this Persian poet, I'm reading the new revised standard version of the Bible and these are all things that are. And I'm reading all this stuff and he's on the other bunk and he's diligently like going through his scripture program and we went back and forth and he's like, the only thing you should read is the scriptures because that's the only thing you could depend on. And everything else will lead you astray and you should never, you know, you got to attend your meetings, read your scriptures and. And I know that I was driving him insane because I just quite peacefully said, look, I find this is beautiful. It inspires me to think about God and how much I love people around me. And I read the scriptures too. But his orthodoxy challenged me to examine, well, am I just too far out in left field? Maybe I am a little messed up. Maybe I should read the scriptures more or something. But see that I could either get angry at him and say, you idiot, you don't even know what you're talking about. You know what Joseph Smith did back in blah blah, and ruin his faith. Or I could just appreciatively say, you know what? He was a wonderful, a wonderful brother. He really did. You know, he cares about me. I know he did. And just accept that, that love from that person, even if you don't agree with them and even if you think they're messed up anyways. Yes. The purpose of stay LDS is not just to treat the church like a social club because you might get free dinners when you have a baby for a week or something like that, but to really find, if you can, something useful and inspiring there.

Honest Engagement Versus Passive Membership

Guest [00:47:19] You know, I actually am really down on the notion of being a freeloader. I think it's ethically wrong to use the church as a tool just in a total utilitarian standpoint. And I actually see the opportunities to serve my neighbor as a primary reason for why I want to go to church. Do you see it that way? Opportunities for service that you wouldn't otherwise get?

Brian Johnston [00:47:45] Oh, totally, totally. I don't want to be like, kick out all the freeloaders. But I don't get as much out of it unless I get as much out of it as I put into it. And I don't do everything. Nobody can do everything but the stuff that I do. I totally agree with you. And actually, if you want to live peacefully within an LDS community and be different, it will help immensely to build up that social capital. Because when I say something wacky in Elders Quorum, that's totally off the wall, that guy thinks I'm a nutcase. But guess what? Last month I was breaking my back moving his sofa out of his, you know, out of his moving truck. And he knows I'm a good guy and I care about him. And so maybe it's okay if I'm a little bit of a wacko, you know, but. But yeah, the opportunity, the organized opportunity to serve, sure, you could find that elsewhere. But you know, what the LDS Church is really can be, you know, is a super organized system and a way to find service to serve other people. And I was really super excited about that announcement of a fourth purpose of the church, which is, you know, intended to bust the people out of just the internal loop. Like, yes, we, we have opportunities to serve each other, but really only for members of the church. It's, you know, I see that as a huge, huge potential of getting people out there. And let's not just help brother so and so move. Let's help this other person that's not, you know, let's really Reach out in the community and show how we can improve things and, you know, use this organizational skills and culture. Not in a way that's like all elitist and all that stuff. I'm just saying let's really make a difference in the world. The world's a messed up place. But guess what? If we all pitch in, maybe we can make it a little bit better.

Guest [00:49:46] What about just the social. One of the things that I feel pretty strongly about as I'm studying mental health is how crucial good social interactions are to mental health and how, you know, this notion that people disparaged Hillary Clinton for that it takes a village to raise a child. So when somebody's, when people sort of say, oh, you're just using the church as a social club, you know, I feel like that's just really discounting and doing a disservice to the extremely important function that healthy social networks and healthy relationships have to just being a well functioning human being.

Brian Johnston [00:50:34] Yeah.

Guest [00:50:35] So the church is a social group and as a support for families,

Brian Johnston [00:50:43] I think the ideals of the church support family values. But I'll have to say, I mean, a person's social experience in the church is going to be as good, honestly as the people in that local ward.

Guest [00:50:58] That's true.

Brian Johnston [00:51:02] Yeah. I mean, I kind of hedge a little on that. I think, like I said, the ideals of the church certainly support, like you said, me associating with other men, my peers at church. That's a very positive network for me because it's other men who want to be good fathers and good husbands. And we talk about that in elders quorum. And honestly, in a culture, whatever the culture values, that's what people will strive to achieve. So if wealth is a status symbol, then people will try to be rich. Or like in traditional Jewish culture, education and study is highly, highly valued. So the pinnacle is to become a rabbi. And so here is a culture that says, you know what, to be successful as a man. And hopefully this is the same way for women. Although I know there are feminist issues with that. But I'm just talking about my experience, but as a man, I'm associating with other men and I am, you know, successful if I am trying to be a good person, a good husband, a good father, a good role model, a good teacher, all those things. And so I guess, is that what kind of you're talking about, you know.

Guest [00:52:23] Yeah. And the truth is, you're absolutely right. Living, for example, in a upper middle class subdivision in Logan, Utah or even Seattle, Washington is totally different than you know, the, the Appalachia corridor in, you know, Kentucky or Indiana. And so mileage may vary when it comes to the, the social value.

Brian Johnston [00:52:51] Right.

Guest [00:52:52] And the value of family support, aside from the fact that everyone's going to experience a social group differently. So I guess it can be a plus and it can be a minus.

Brian Johnston [00:53:04] Yeah. And actually this is going to be maybe a poke in the eye of the church, but I've had the best experiences in kind of farther out places. I was in a ward outside of Atlanta recently and I thought it was one of the most loving and functional wards I've ever been in, but 70% of the families were part member families and it, you know, there wasn't so much of the white suit and tie or no, sorry, white shirt and tie, you know, mentality. It was like real, real people with real problems in their lives. And those people, you know, like a lot of words I've been in, somebody moves in and the elders quorum president's got to hassle people to show up to the move. This word, it was like somebody's moving and 15 guys will show up. And it was just, they sent out an email like so and so is moving. If you want to show up, show up, you know, and these people were there for you. Anyways, I've had a great experience in some of those more remote mission like areas.

Guest [00:54:17] Sure,

Brian Johnston [00:54:20] sure.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Brian Johnston [00:54:21] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward

John Dehlin [00:54:42] bulletin and ward newsletter.

Brian Johnston [00:54:44] Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

Guest [00:55:12] Though like a wanderer the sun gone down Darkness beyond me my rest assured yet in my dreams I'd be Nearer my go to Nearer my go to to me. There let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou sendest Mercy angels to beckon me Nearer my go to thee Nearer my God to thee Nearer to Thee. Then with my waking thoughts bright with thy praise out of my stony griefs Bethlehem so by my woes to be Nearer my God to thee Nearer my God to the Nearer to thee O Rif on joyful wing Cleaving the sky, sun, moon and stars would I fly still all my song shall be Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer, my God, to Thee Nearer to Thee Nearer, my God, to thee Nearer to Thee

Brian Johnston [00:57:19] Sa.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.