Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Purpose of This Letter
John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is July 5, 2021, and today I have a solo presentation that I'm excited to deliver to you. The presentation is entitled why Mormon Truth Matters, A Letter to Mormon apologist, Dr. Terrell Givens. Again, I'm Dr. John Dehlin and I've done a few of these solo presentations recently. One on Patrick Mason, one to Richard Bushman. And I've gotten a lot of good feedback that people have enjoyed it, but also they want to make sure I don't go on too long and that I'm not too ranty. So I'm going to work really hard to keep today tight, to keep it succinct, but also to keep it thoughtful and direct and passionate.
John Dehlin [00:00:50] So for those of you who have never heard of me before or don't know who I am, who are just stumbling on this on YouTube, I am a 6th generation Mormon. I was an active member of the church, highly participatory, for 46 years. I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology.
John Dehlin [00:01:10] And I've spent the better part of the past 20 years counseling with well over 30,000, you know, Mormons who are doubting or Mormons who have left the church to try and support them. Because it turns out it is very, very difficult to leave a high demand religion like Mormonism.
John Dehlin [00:01:30] And so I am here today to make a presentation in response to a recent video that was put up on YouTube with Terrell and Fiona Givens, two of the Mormon Church's top apologists in 2021. But before I actually dig into the substance of my presentation, I do want to provide just a few quick disclaimers. The first is, I want to be really clear, it is not my intention today to shame Terrell Givens for something he said to an audience of faithful Mormons in the uk.
John Dehlin [00:02:07] And I want to really reiterate to my audience that whenever there are problems in a religious tradition, in my view, it's more often than not the system that's the problem, not the people. And so I just want to reiterate to my audience that systems, not people. And so we are not here today to shame Terrell Givens, to make him feel awful, to have a bunch of people hate on him. We just, you know, but, but what we do do, what I do want to do is to provide sincere feedback to help Terrell Gibbons and other Mormon apologists and the Mormon Church do less harm to people who are experiencing a faith crisis.
John Dehlin [00:02:47] And also in turn to ensure that there's less family strife and divorce, specifically with Mormons who are questioning the church, doubting the church or leaving the church. I also do want to say that I did something different this time. Actually not different. I've done this in the past as well. I have reached out to Terrell Givens directly to invite him to have a direct confidential conversation. I'm hoping to hear back from him and if I do, you won't know about it because I plan on keeping those confidences if he does reach out to me because I would love to have these conversations in private.
John Dehlin [00:03:23] So to go ahead and jump into the presentation now, what I'm going to be now sharing with you is a video that comes from a really valuable YouTube channel called Thoughts on Things and Stuff or Thinker of Thoughts. My dear friend Jonathan Streeter shared this clip and it's a clip from a southern Sunderland stake fireside in the UK in England that appeared in the fall of 2020, so late last year. And what I'm going to do now is just play a brief clip from this steak fireside that was put on the Internet somewhere and it's basically Terrell and Fiona Givens responding to a question from someone who I believe is maybe the stake President of the Sunderland Stake, asking a question about people in faith crisis.
John Dehlin [00:04:14] And I just want to let people know, for those who don't know who Terrell and Fiona Givens are up. You know, Terrell and Fiona Givens up until recently were both employed by the Maxwell Institute, the Neal A. Maxwell Institute at Brigham Young University, the Mormon Church's flagship university. And they are the two leading Mormon apologists on the planet right now. Fiona was recently released or she parted ways with the Maxwell Institute.
John Dehlin [00:04:41] We'll talk about that maybe in a future episode. But Terrell Givens is still a full time employee benefits salaried Mormon Church's top apologist. And so that's one of the reasons why I am doing this presentation because it is really important, I believe, for the Mormon Church's top professional paid apologists to kind of get their messaging right to faithful, doubting or questioning Mormons. We all benefit when they do. So what I'm going to do now is play a clip from the Fireside that was shared by Jonathan Streeter on the YouTube channel Thoughts on Things and Stuff. And then I'm going to share some reactions to it.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [00:05:19] So here is the clip. Terrell, I listened to the podcast you were on maybe about a year ago and I think there was an occasion where somebody was pointed in your direction. I think maybe the sister missionary was pointed in your direction and you had a dialogue with her. There was some really good insight that I got from some of the questions you had for her. Is that something you recall?
Video Clip 1 [00:05:41] Yeah, I do. I recall it very vividly because in some ways it kind of launched us on this. On this journey. I was fortunate that I had a mission. There was a mission president in our area who knew us and our work.
Video Clip 1 [00:05:55] There was a sister missionary who had decided that she was going to leave the church. She was finishing her mission the next week, and she'd made the decision to go home and leave. And her companion, of course, deeply distraught over this and asked the mission president, could we go talk to Brother Givens? And he gave them permission to come and stay as long as they needed. So they stayed long into the night.
Video Clip 1 [00:06:16] And I listened to one after another question. And then finally it occurred to me to ask this one question. And I said to her, in regard to one question in particular about Joseph Smith, and I said, sister, I said, why does the answer to that question matter?
Video Clip 1 [00:06:35] And it changed everything. It just caught her up short. And she thought for a minute and she said, I don't know. I don't. I don't know.
John Dehlin [00:06:49] All right, so that was Terrell. I listened to that was Terrell Givens responding to the question at that state conference. And I just want to know that when I heard that response, I was shocked. And just to kind of test it, because sometimes I tend to get very passionate about these things. I shared that clip with my wife, Margi, who's definitely far more soft, far more compassionate than I am. And her response as well was like, what did he just say? Like, did he just say what I thought he said? She thought it was a joke, actually. She said, was this a joke? And so what I wanted to first do is ask the question, or at least make the statement to Terrell Givens that I believe we should carefully consider the ethics of.
John Dehlin [00:07:43] Of suggesting to a questioning Mormon any member of a high demand religion, or basically just in any counseling setting, we should be thoughtful about questioning about. About the ethics of questioning anyone, including a sister missionary who's having doubts from a position of power, questioning her as to whether or not her questions are legitimate or matter.
John Dehlin [00:08:11] And. And I think there is a video that expresses what I'm trying to say a little bit better than I do. I recently launched a TikTok campaign. I'm very proud of what we've been doing on TikTok with the Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok Channel. And recently I solicited responses from from my listeners to share their responses to Terryl and Fiona's quote and to tag that with the tag hashtag, why Mormon truth matters. And what I'm going to do is share with you one response from Tiktoker Becca Walker creates. And then I'm going to share my concerns as well from a mental health professional point of view. But here was Becca's response to Terrell's statement.
Guest 1 [00:08:59] While I can't speak for how the sister missionary was feeling, I did have a similar experience and I want to share about how I felt. Honestly, it made me question my own judgment and intuition. I second guessed my spirituality, felt like my questions were invalid and I was in the wrong for asking them. And I was even more confused, which, to be blunt, is what happens when you're being gaslit. The sister missionary probably viewed this man as being more knowledgeable and spiritual than her, and he dictated whether the answer to her question mattered or not. If the answer matters to you, then it matters. Your questions are valid. And if the answers truly don't matter, then why are we not getting the answers to our questions? Well, I can't.
John Dehlin [00:09:45] So a huge thanks for that response. And you know, I, I have a lot of respect for Terrell Givens. He. He is clearly a professional when it comes to pulse poetry and find literature. He has a PhD in English Literature or something to that effect. And I just want to say I have D. I and I'm sure many of you have deep respect for his prowess and his knowledge as it relates to English literature. I, I want to say that I also have an expertise. I have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, as I mentioned at the beginning, and I've been trained in sort of ethical counseling or psychotherapy.
John Dehlin [00:10:24] And so when I hear a response from Terrell like he gave, almost immediately sort of alarm bells go off as to the ethics of his counseling. And the types of questions that come to mind include, you know, Terrell Givens, are you a trained therapist or counselor for people in faith crisis? You know, do you realize that you were in a position of power over this young woman, that she was in a vulnerable position? You are in a position of power as an employee of the church, as an older man, as someone who's viewed as an authority or spiritual authority? You know, do you understand that you're in a position of power when you're responding to those questions?
John Dehlin [00:11:07] And that that's something to be very sensitive about? You know, should you have been, you know, validating this young woman instead of questioning her. Does it qualify as the young woman said in the previous video, does it qualify as gaslighting to second guess why something should matter to someone, especially when those concerns are legitimate, which we all know the concerns. Well, I think many of us know that the concerns about Joseph Smith certainly are, and we're going to get to that in just a second.
John Dehlin [00:11:39] I will also say, you know, do you, Terrell Givens, you know, retell this story in an ethical way or an unethical way? And what I mean by that is, does her appearance, you know, when she appeared to you as fumbling or stumbling and, and being shaken by your retort, you know, did that necessarily mean that her problems were resolved in the long term by your retort?
John Dehlin [00:12:06] You know, personally, I would love to have somebody reach out to me and find who this sister missionary was who, you know, had this conversation with Terrell to find out if today, in fact, her concerns remain resolved. Because the way that story gets told, it leaves listeners with the impression that, wow, all you have to do when someone's questioning Joseph Smith is say, why does this matter? And they're going to be confused and all of a sudden have a stupor of thought and then believe. Again, I don't think that's going to be the case for most people who have sincere doubts and questions about Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [00:12:40] And I even question whether for the sister, her concerns were truly resolved and. Or resolved for the long term. And so, Terryl, if you can help us get a hold of this sister to find out whether her concerns were resolved in the long term, I would love to have that opportunity. Otherwise, it may be that sharing this story is somewhat unethical.
John Dehlin [00:13:03] And then I would just go on to say, terryl Givens, as a professional apologist, I have to believe that you understand why questions about Joseph Smith and Mormon Church history matters to people who are doubting. Because Terrell and Fiona, I know that you guys travel all over the world doing firesides with many, many people who express to you often why their concerns about Joseph Smith are problematic. You guys have authored several books about people having doubts and questions. And so it is just dumbfounded, dumbfounding to me a little bit that you would even ask this question.
John Dehlin [00:13:41] Why do, why does someone's concerns about Joseph Smith matter? I would think that you would know. And then finally, you know, what are the implications of sharing this story more broadly? And I'm going to get to why. Questions like that, answers like that can sow tension or dissension with believing Mormon families. But now I'm going to go ahead and just answer the question that you asked Terrell Givens. You know, why do people's concerns about Joseph Smith matter? And this is often for listeners that just don't know so what Mormons are so very often taught about Joseph Smith. And I wouldn't just say, you know, Mormons raised in the church, but also converts to the church, people who take the missionary discussions.
What Members Are Not Taught About Joseph Smith
John Dehlin [00:14:29] We are generally taught that Joseph Smith was an honest man, super honest. That he had special powers to translate ancient records, ancient Egyptian or reformed Egyptian. That he was falsely accused for breaking the law. That he was like a lamb to the slaughter whenever he was accused of breaking the law or violating the law.
John Dehlin [00:14:51] Anyone raised in the Mormon church is taught that Joseph Smith had one wife, her name was Emma, and were taught that Joseph Smith did more for mankind than, than any other human other than Jesus Christ. So that is what most Mormons and or Mormon investigators are taught.
John Dehlin [00:15:09] And here's a video from a Mormon apostle. I believe this is Neil Anderson kind of giving us a summary of what we're taught about Joseph Smith. I testify that Joseph Smith was an honest and virtuous man, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Father and his Son. Jesus Christ did appear to him.
John Dehlin [00:15:37] He did translate the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. So that, so that is basically what Mormons are, what Mormons are taught about Joseph Smith, that he was a super righteous, faithful, good man. That this is a list, just a brief list of what Mormons are not taught about Joseph Smith. And this is where it gets really important. And I am guessing that these are examples of the types of questions that the sister missionary who talked to Joseph Smith had and presented to Richard.
John Dehlin [00:16:15] Sorry. That the sister missionary had for Terrell Givens and that these were the types of questions that the sister missionary presented to Terrell Givens. So one thing that Mormons and Mormon investigators are not taught is that Joseph Smith secretly married so many women that we actually don't know the number. And I'm now going to share to you a quote from the Mormon Church's own Gospel topics essay called Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo. So there, you know, if you go to the LDS Church's website or the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints.org Whatever it is, look for the Gospel topics essay on Nauvoo polygamy and it's going to have these words, the exact number of women to whom he Joseph Smith was sealed in his lifetime is unknown because the evidence is fragmentary and that's the nicest way that I could possibly put this, but that is the Mormon Church acknowledging that Joseph Smith was sealed to many, many women.
John Dehlin [00:17:18] Joseph during his life. So many women that the exact number is not known. And if we go to the Internet and just Google Joseph Smith, plural marriage or the wives of Joseph Smith, we can learn that Joseph Smith married at least 34 women during his lifetime. This included people that were given to him as foster children when their parents died. This included domestic help. This included sister pairs, this included mother daughter pairs. This included at least one 14 year old. And this included several women over 10, I believe, that were actually married to other men at the time he married them. So, you know, that is troubling for people who learn this, especially when they learn this after they've made lifelong commitments to the church or after they've joined the church, to learn this afterwards is deeply problematic.
John Dehlin [00:18:17] I've already mentioned again that Joseph married at least one 14 year old. Again, this is from the the Nauvoo Polygamy essay Gospel topics essay from churchofjesuschristlaterysaints.org it reads, the youngest was Helen Mark Kimball, daughter of Joseph's close friends Heber C. And Violet Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. And again, that phrasing several months before her 15th birthday is just a apologetic or diplomatic way to say she was 14 years old.
John Dehlin [00:18:53] So this is another thing that is deeply troubling to people. Another one is that Joseph Smith lied to his wife, Emma Smith about most of his 30 plus wives. And again, if you go to the essay Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo, it reads, but Emma likely did not know about all of Joseph's ceilings. And again, that's putting it kindly. Emma did not know about most of Joseph's marriages and I will add his sexual relations with the women that he married.
John Dehlin [00:19:29] So just to summarize, Terrell Givens, Fiona Givens and Mormon apologists, I think you would agree that, you know, whether it's Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, Jim Jones, you know, pick your, even the Nexium guy, Rainier, Keith Rainier, you know, marrying up to 34 women, marrying your domestic help foster children, marrying a 14 year old, marrying sister pairs, marrying mother daughter pairs, and marrying over 10 women who were married to men at the time he married them.
John Dehlin [00:20:08] I think you would agree, Terrell Givens, that this is deeply troubling and problematic. I think you know all this and I think you know why. Why this would be troubling and disturbing to any Mormon, including a sister missionary. And then I think you also probably know, Terrell Givens, that lying to Emma about these marriages, hiding them from not just Emma, but from all the members of the church or most of the members of the church at the time and the general public. I think, Terell Givens, you understand why Joseph Smith's behavior was problematic and I think you understand why these are legitimate concerns and why these would call a prophet's credibility into question like it does for, for almost all of the Mormons who learn about these things and again, usually after they've made lifelong commitments to the church for multiple decades.
John Dehlin [00:21:05] And I would just ask you, Terrell Givens, a sincere question. And Fiona, I would ask you this question too. And if any of you have a chance to ask Terrell and Fiona this question at an upcoming fireside, I would ask you to consider asking them this question. Terrell and Fiona Givens, would you have trusted your own daughters to be alone with Joseph Smith? Now I know that in a Mormon context where we tend to be super nice to each other, that might be an offensive question or a harsh question, but I think it's a fair one and I would love to hear Terryl or hear people report back Terrell and Fiona Givens answer to that question.
John Dehlin [00:21:47] I will go on to say that that deceptive and coercive polygamy and polyandry are really only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Joseph Smith. So as disturbing as this information might be for some of you who are just learning about Joseph Smith for the first time, that's just kind of the tip of the iceberg. And I'll share now another YouTube video submitted to to the tag why Mormon truth matters on TikTok from a friend who will be appearing on Mormon Stories shortly. He goes by xma741 on TikTok and I'll share with you his response to the To Terell Givens statement now.
Guest 2 [00:22:34] Hey Terrell, why does Joseph Smith's behavior matter? It matters because the church that he established requires exact obedience from me and my family and and my friends to feel and receive the spirit. If he was a prophet of God, the same should be expected of him. So does it matter? Yes. It matters that he lied to Emma about marrying a 14 year old girl behind her back and many others. It matters that he was a polyandrist and never explained it. It matters that he established the Kirkland Banking Society that failed and was a fraud without US authority. It matters that he he did so many other things, including the establishment of the Church upon false principles and precepts.
Guest 2 [00:23:13] It matters because of the Kinderhook plates, It matters because of the Book of Abraham and most of all it matters because the Book of Mormon he said he translated from gold plates. He did not. It's a plagiarism of three different books. So yes Terrell, it matters. And for that reason we left.
John Dehlin [00:23:32] So a huge shout out to my friend Expo741 for for that passionate plea. Thanks to everyone who responded to this TikTok challenge. And so to continue the slide that I showed you previously, the truth about Joseph Smith, the things that we aren't taught, that investigating Mormons are never taught, is that Joseph Smith had a long history of fraud, a folk magic, of treasure digging and of legal fraud, including banking fraud. That Joseph Smith's translations of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham have been disproven by science. Scientists have reviewed the papyru that Joseph Smith claimed to translate from Egyptian into the Book of Abraham and they've reviewed the text of the Book of Mormon and in all instances they've been shown to be Works of 19th century fiction and not of in any way possible translations of ancient records.
John Dehlin [00:24:26] And of course in the previous video, the plagiarisms that are included in the Book of Mormon, the King James Version, the New Testament, the Deutero, Isaiah and all the other things just demonstrate all the anachronisms, demonstrate that the Book of Mormon literally cannot be a translation of an ancient record.
John Dehlin [00:24:45] And also just that Joseph Smith frequently broke the law, that when he was in trouble with the law it was because indeed he had violated the law in many or most instances. And you know what Mormons aren't taught is that Joseph Smith was killed as the result of his legal misdeeds and legal misbehaviors. Now, I don't have time to dig into all of the problems of Joseph Smith, but I am going to Refer you to cesletteresletter.org for an amazing book or PDF created by my friend Jeremy Runnels, where you can read that in just a few hours and learn everything you need to about Joseph Smith to make an informed decision about whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not.
John Dehlin [00:25:25] Now I'm going to end today's presentation by just making it really clear to you, Terrell Givens, and to other Mormon apologists like Patrick Mason, like Spencer Fluman, like Richard Bushman and others why the truth about Joseph Smith and Mormon church history, why they matter and why they are really important that this word gets out and that we stop treating questioners or doubters like, like the problems with them. So here are some of the reasons why Mormon truth matters. Number one. Mormon children are indoctrinated into Mormonism at the age, you know, from, from the, from being babies, you know, through being eight into their teenage years.
John Dehlin [00:26:10] They're indoctrinated based on inaccurate and incomplete teachings about Joseph Smith. Mormon children are not taught problems about Joseph Smith, his polyandry, his polygamy, his, his legal problems, his problems with the translation. Kids are indoctrinated into Mormonism for life without being given all the information. Similarly, Mormon converts joined the Mormon Church based on inaccurate and incomplete teachings about Joseph Smith. So you will not find that Mormon missionaries talk about Joseph Smith's polygamy as polyandry, the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, et cetera. You just won't find it. They're taught a simplistic version of Mormonism and they join without understanding any of the real significant problems.
John Dehlin [00:26:56] Next problem is that Mormon missions are socially mandatory. You are socially punished if you don't serve a Mormon mission. And Mormon missionaries perpetuate inaccurate understandings about Joseph Smith to the world because you're just not going to want to be open and honest about all the problems that Joseph Smith and Mormon truth claims when you're trying to get someone to join the church and so forth, or the history of the church. The Mormon missionaries have not taught complete, inaccurate views of Joseph Smith. It's another reason why Mormon truth matters and why there's a problem. The next problem is young Mormon women often forego education and careers based on inaccurate and incomplete church teachings about Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [00:27:42] There are so many women that I meet who say, I would have made very different choices in my education, in my career, with marriage, with children, if I had known the truth about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham and the Church's teachings and their historical problems. The next problem with, with Mormon truth and consent is that Mormon marriages are based on inaccurate and incomplete teachings about Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [00:28:10] And even take that further, Mormon temple covenants are made for eternity based on, you know, inaccurate and incomplete teachings about Joseph Smith. So, so many people go to byu, byu, Idaho, marry their spouse for eternity, make lifelong commitments where there's this mutual understanding of, of Joseph Smith, of the church and of the church's truth claims, only to find out later that they base their entire lives, their marriage, their children, their careers on information that was either inaccurate or just CR completely untrue. And just to again give you another example from the Tik Tok campaign, why Mormon truth matters is Michella lazy? JD And I'm just going to play a short Tik Tok video from her to illustrate this point.
Guest [00:29:04] Why does Mormon truth matter? So when I married my husband who was a non member in, 2002 2008, my dad gave me a priesthood blessing that if I was faithful I would have him in the eternities. So I ignored so many things in the church that weren't right because I felt like if I didn't, I wouldn't have my husband and my two children in the eternities. And it was all up to me to get us there. So when I found out last year that the first vision was a lie and the Book of Mormon wasn't translated the way we were told and the Book of Abraham was fake and the temple ceremony was stolen from the Masons, I realized that I had been ignoring my own inner voice based on that one event. It matters.
John Dehlin [00:30:04] It absolutely matters. And and lives are directly impacted by by this lack of informed consent. I'll continue. It isn't just, you know, marriages that are impacted. As someone now who's who's counseled over 30,000 people in their faith crises and particularly mixed faith marriages, what what I've seen in thousands and thousands and thousands of marriages is that there have been way too many divorces come from one member of a Mormon marriage learning the truth about Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, the truth claims and believing the historical truth. But then the other more faithful or less skeptical member of the marriage not believing the information that's told, dismissing it as coming from anti Mormon lies or non credible sources.
John Dehlin [00:31:04] And this, this leads to a mixed faith Mormon marriage. It leads to a lot of strife and tension in the marriage and way too often I've seen thousands and thousands of divorces come from this scenario that is deeply problematic. So this is another reason why Mormon truth matters and why questions about Joseph Smith really do matter and why informed consent matters.
Family Division, Excommunication, and Informed Consent
John Dehlin [00:31:29] Next slide. Way too I have seen way too much Mormon family division based on inaccurate and incomplete teachings about Joseph Smith. So this extends beyond marriages to parents, parent child relationships, grandparent parent and children relationships, sibling relationships, you know, know all the way around. Way too much division and and and strife in Mormon families because of incomplete or false teachings about Joseph Smith. So Terrell Givens, what I'm saying in summary, not to shame you, but Just to help educate you. And again, I will do this in person whenever you allow me to that your somewhat invalidating response to the sister missionary that you're now telling on.
John Dehlin [00:32:17] You know, during firesides. I worry that it may only further encourage family rejection as other believing family members may just echo your words. They'll hear your words, Terrell Givens, and they'll hear the Mormon Church's top apologists say, why does it matter? You know, why does the answer to that question matter? And they'll say that to their questioning, you know, family members and, and that will be experienced by an army of questioning or doubting Mormons as being very invalidating and dismissive. And I worry that it will cause a lot of sadness and stress. There are a few other points that I'd like to make about why Mormon truth matters and why questions about Joseph Smith matter.
John Dehlin [00:33:06] Mormon Native Americans are taught that their dark skin is the sign of a curse from God based on teachings from Joseph Smith. So that is a deep problem. And you can just read the Book of Mormon to know what I mean by that.
John Dehlin [00:33:22] Mormon tithing is mandatory. You're kept out of your own children's weddings if you don't pay Mormon tithing. And you not only have to pay your Mormon 10%, you have to pay 10% of your income for your entire life. And so many people have given thousands or tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing to the Mormon Church based on inaccurate or incomplete information about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and the Mormon Church's foundings. And once they learn the truth about the church, they say, I would never have given all that money to the Church. In fact, my dear friend James Huntsman is currently suing the Mormon Church to get his tithing back because he feels like he gave that tithing under false pretenses, especially once he learned from Ensign Peak, from defector David Nielsen, whistleblower, that the Mormon Church has amassed now over $120 billion in reserve investments alone under these false pretenses, and that the Mormon Church is now misusing these funds.
John Dehlin [00:34:27] That instead of using these funds for charitable purposes, the Mormon Church has used these funds for only two things. Bailing out a failed insurance company, beneficial Life that the Church mismanaged, and also bailing out City Creek Mall that had a billion plus dollar cost overrun. Those are the only two known uses of the Ensign Peak funds. And they're growing at 7 or $8 billion a year, which more than covers the Church's annual expenses, which leads so many to people to believe. Why do I need to pay tithing at all? Now that a whistleblower has made public the church's financial situation, why are people even required to pay tithing?
John Dehlin [00:35:12] Then we kind of get to the most serious, some of the most serious reasons why Mormon truth matters and informed consent matters so much. Mormon lgbtq, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer bigotry is rooted in the teachings of Joseph Smith. And if you don't understand what I mean by that, I will now share with you a video from an amazing podcast called Latter Gay Saints by my dear friend Kyle Ashworth, where he shares the story of Randy Welbaum and Jeremy Adriano, two faithful gay Mormons and returned missionaries who were legally and lawfully married recently and were also excommunicated recently from the Mormon Church for only one sin.
John Dehlin [00:36:03] Sin, I say in air quotes, which is getting legal and lawfully married. I will now share the recounting of their disciplinary council with their stake president.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [00:36:15] So when, after they, after we left the room so they could talk about it and maybe pray about it, I'm not sure what happened. We were invited back in and eventually they told us that we have decided to remove your names. I went pale. I went pale because it seemed like my testimony was meaningless. After they told me that it could weigh something, it was meaningless. They said that you're going to be excommunicated because of the law of chat, the violation of the law of chastity. And it's done. There's. There's nothing, there's nothing that can fix that or help that as long. So I asked, so what had. What has to. What went wrong? What, what did we have to do?
Video Clip 2 [00:37:05] What would have had.
Video Clip 2 [00:37:06] Yeah, what. Yeah, would have to be different in the interview.
Video Clip 2 [00:37:09] For a different outcome.
Video Clip 2 [00:37:10] Yeah, for a different outcome. And he said this, the stake president said you would have to dissolve the marriage. That is the only way. So it doesn't matter how strong our convictions are. And that really hurts.
John Dehlin [00:37:35] So that is so again, thank you so much to Kyle Ashworth for sharing that interview. And you know, and that particular video just caused so much outrage in me because, you know, here we now see that Joseph Smith can have over 34 wives, including a 14 year old sister pairs over 10 women married to other men, you know, all in violation of the teachings in doctrine and Covenants 132, because Doctrine of Covenants 132 says that a wife must approve the, you know, the additional women that a husband takes on. And Joseph Smith violated many of the rules outlined in Doctrine and Covenants 132. But not only can Joseph Smith have all these wives lie about it, hide it, violate Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, but the Mormon Church is literally asking these beautiful, faithful, legally married men to divorce each other, to remain in good standing with the church.
John Dehlin [00:38:47] And for me, that is bigotry. That is really, really hard to feel good about, and it is really hard to get comfortable with. And if you then add what we all know now has been an epidemic and an epidemic of death by suicide by Mormon LGBTQ youth and young adults that began in 2008 with Proposition 8 from the church and continues to this day within Utah and other states where there are, you know, are a lot of LGBTQ Mormons, the stakes become really, really high because, you know, all these LGBTQ youth and young adults, if they had been taught the truth about Joseph Smith, about his polygamy as polyandry, his sexual behaviors, basically, maybe they would not feel like the church had to, you know, had the right to tell them who they should or shouldn't love or who they should or shouldn't marry.
John Dehlin [00:39:50] And so what this, what this sort of culminates in is a concern about the absence of informed consent within Mormonism. And, you know, if I had to summarize, you know, my main belief within Mormon stories, my main motivator within Mormon stories, it's not that I want to tear the church down. It's not that I want to destroy the church. It's not that I want to kick people out of the church or ruin the church. It's literally that I just want informed consent for people born into the church and for people who are considering joining the church.
John Dehlin [00:40:21] And then if people have all the information and they know all the problems and they decide to stay, good for them. But I would have liked to have known all this information before I committed to a two year mission, before I went to byu, you, before I paid all that tithing, before I got married in the church, in, in the Mormon temples, etc. I would have liked to know, and I'm aware of literally hundreds of thousands of podcast listeners who feel like they were not taught the truth, they were misled, and they weren't given all the information that they needed to make an informed decision.
John Dehlin [00:40:53] And so I'm just going to ask you, Tarot Givens, you, Fiona Givens, and any of you, you know, active believing Mormons, just a few questions, you know, were you taught growing up that Joseph smith married over 34 women, including a 14 year old and other men's wives and that he lied about it to Emma in the church?
John Dehlin [00:41:11] And if not, did you deserve to know about this before committing your life to the church, serving a mission, getting married in the temple, et cetera? And does it concern you at all that you weren't taught this? The church has known about this since its founding.
John Dehlin [00:41:26] This is not new news to the church. So you have to ask yourself why? Why was I never taught it? And why is the church not teaching it to everyone today? Everyone, especially investigators to the church. So secondly for you Mormon returned missionaries, when you taught your investigators and baptized your investigators on your missions, did you teach this stuff about Joseph smith, polygamy, polyandry, etc. Did you teach it to your investigators?
John Dehlin [00:41:55] And if not, did they deserve to know this before getting baptized? I think we would all agree that they did. It's information that is important enough to share. And again, if any of you are believing Mormon parents, I would just ask you, have you taught your children this about Joseph Smith's polyandrian polygamy and his lying to Emma and the church? Have you taught this to your own children? If not, why not?
John Dehlin [00:42:20] And should they know about this stuff before making commitments to seminary and mission and etc, should they know this? Should they have informed consent? And I will just say, you know, for 50 years, 51 years now in the church and or counseling believing Mormons. The overwhelming majority of Mormon church members and converts have never been told this information as of 2021. This remains true to this day. And the church continues to indoctrinate people into the church and baptize people into the church without this information.
Listener Stories and a Call to Action
John Dehlin [00:42:57] The last point I want to make maybe one of the last videos. I may have one or two videos more. Here's a video that I want to share from a listener. C. Not so Smallville on TikTok. It's basically making a really point about why this is an ethical point problem.
John Dehlin [00:43:16] And it's about this old, you know, primary song that we all learned. You know, the wise man built his house upon the rock or the foolish man built his house upon the sand and we'll let see not so Smallville share her TikTok response.
Guest [00:43:30] Why does it matter? I'm going to take you all the way back to primary for this one. The wise man built his house upon the rock. The foolish man built his house upon the sand. You see the foundation matters, doesn't it?
John Dehlin [00:43:47] And you know, thanks to her for sharing that. Thanks to CK Knottsville. And you know, I think she makes Just a really important point that I would like to drive home now in 2021. Building a life on the Mormon plan of happiness, in my view, is like building a house on a Sandy foundation. And here's why.
John Dehlin [00:44:11] It's almost a guarantee, you know. So first of all, the Mormon Church teaches that the whole value proposition of temples and of ceilings and of eternal families is that, you know, there's levels of heaven, there's the celestial kingdom, there's a terrestrial kingdom, there's celestial kingdom, and then there's outer darkness. And only people who reach the celestial kingdom get to live with God and get to live with your spouse, with your kids, and with your family. And the only way to make it to the celestial kingdom is to be sealed to your spouse and to your children and to all your family by getting Mormon baptisms, Mormon temple marriages, Mormon endowment ceremonies, and Mormon ceilings.
John Dehlin [00:44:53] If it's the case that, you know, half of all people raised Mormon in the world today, and even it's even worse because if you count people outside the United States, there's like now a 20 to 30% retention rate with Mormons in the world in 2021, as I understand it, then if you add the billions and billions of people who never are going to accept a Mormon baptism or accept the Mormon endowment temple work for the dead, or have a temple wedding ceiling in a Mormon temple or in the millennium or whatever, if you think about all the people that are going to end up not Mormon, including most of the people raised Mormon, then what that turns into is sort of this scenario of sad heaven where if you raise your children in the church, if you raise them to be active, faithful, believing Mormons, over half of them, including you or your spouse or your parents or your siblings, they're going to leave the church because the church is losing people in droves.
John Dehlin [00:45:59] And if you don't believe me, just Google Special Report Mormonism besieged by the Modern Age, where you'll hear Marlon Jensen give that really famous quote. Maybe since Kirtland, we've never had a period of apostasy like we're having now. And that is the case, kind of everywhere you turn, people are leaving the church, the Mormon Church, in droves.
John Dehlin [00:46:24] So to summarize, what I'm trying to say today, Terell Givens is, will you and other Mormon apologists, will you and the Mormon Church, will you please consider a more ethical approach with when counseling troubled teens, young adults, missionaries and adults over matters of faith? And will you please consider apologizing for that statement and never using it again or telling that story again, I think it's doing harm.
John Dehlin [00:46:57] So that is the end of my presentation. I promise you I wouldn't go on too long. And here's how I want to end. Listeners and viewers, I really, really need your help. I want to thank everyone who contributed videos to the TikTok campaign, why Mormon Truth Matters. I want to continue to invite you to do the following. Listeners, I really need your help. I have a great idea that I think is going to make a huge difference within Mormonism.
John Dehlin [00:47:26] And here's the idea. I am looking into the possibility of authoring a book. So you know, we have letter to CES directors or CES letter. What we don't have is a book that talks about informed consent, that talks about all the ways that the truth has been hid from Mormons for generations for well over 150 years. That talks about all the truths that have been hidden, all the ways that Mormons and Mormon investigators have been misled or deceived. And we don't have a book that discusses all the ways that Mormons have been harmed by the church and specifically by the lack of informed consent. And so what I want to do is solve that problem through the Internet, through social media and specifically through TikTok.
John Dehlin [00:48:18] And so here's what I'm asking all of you to do. Please get a TikTok account if you don't have one and register it. Download the app, register an account. And I'm asking all my listeners to create two, just two one minute videos. Okay? And here are the two one minute videos. One video that answers the question what do I or what do you wish the Mormon Church had told you? So what I want is as many videos as possible where people on Tick Tock, Mormons and post Mormons on TikTok are sharing information that was held withheld from them. Ways that they were misled, ways that they were not allowed to engage the Mormon Church with informed consent.
John Dehlin [00:49:03] What do you wish you would have been told as a child, as a youth, before your missions, before your marriage? What do you wish you had been told when you, when you share that video on TikTok? Share it with the tag Mormon Informed Consent. Mormon Informed Consent. So the pound sign the hashtag Mormon Informed Consent. And I just want to collect as many possible videos as I can, both for the book project but also for these types of videos. I want to share these types of videos and by tagging it appropriately that will make it easy for me to find it. The second video that I want everyone within the Shadow my voice to create on TikTok is how, how did the Mormon Church harm you?
John Dehlin [00:49:48] And I want you to tag that in the description with the pound sign Mormon Harm or the hashtag Mormon Harm. Those are the two videos that I want you guys all to create and your responses will be compiled by me into a book, hopefully, and, or a web project or a video project. We may want to make actually a movie or, or a video about the Mormon Church and informed consent.
John Dehlin [00:50:15] And so we would love your help. Finally, we have decided to use TikTok as a way. There's so many people that reach out to us and ask us to come on Mormon Stories podcast. So if you've always wanted to come on Mormon Stories podcast, what we're doing is we're asking you to show your support and your interest by, by engaging with us on TikTok. And we're going to be pulling people from TikTok to have them tell their stories on Mormon Stories Podcast. There's one other hashtag that I want to tell you about really briefly, and the hashtag is My Mormon Story. We want to encourage everyone within the sound of my voice to tell their.
John Dehlin [00:51:00] Take the challenge of telling their Mormon story creatively, emotionally, within one minute on Tick Tock using the hashtag My Mormon Story. And I'm going to be perusing those tags as well and pulling from those, pulling from those Tick Tocks clips for future Mormon Stories podcast episodes and potentially guests for Mormon Stories Podcast. So that is my episode today. I promise you it wouldn't be too long. I've kept it under an hour. We're at 57 minutes. So that is my presentation. And again, I want to thank all of you so much for joining us. I want to thank you for your support with Mormon stories podcast with TikTok.
John Dehlin [00:51:44] And I want to end by just warmly and graciously asking you. Don't get mad at Terrell and Fiona. Don't shame them, don't rage at them. Let's be kind, let's be loving, let's be thoughtful. I hope you feel like my monologue today was respectful and kind and diplomatic and not ragey and repetitive. And let's engage Terrell and Fiona Givens and Mormon apologists in the Mormon Church respectfully, but with video, with a book. And let's find a way to do less harm, to have less divorce, less faith crises, less depression, less anxiety, less suicide, less fractured families by engaging in this amazing campaign. I'll show it one more time.
John Dehlin [00:52:31] Please support the why Mormon Truth Matters hashtag campaign by sharing your videos there. I love you guys. I'm grateful so much. This PowerPoint presentation will be shared on MormonStories.org along with the details about this campaign so that all of you can help out. Thanks for your support. Thanks to Gerardo for his support on this. Thanks to Kara Burrell, Brooklyn Alden and the Open Stories Foundation Board. Thanks to everyone who donates that make Mormon Stories possible. Thanks to Jackson for chiming in. Thanks to all you listeners and we'll see you guys all again very soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
In September of 2020, professional Mormon apologists Terryl and Fiona Givens were invited to speak at a Mormon church fireside for the Sunderland England Stake of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. During this fireside Terryl Givens was asked to recount an experience he once had with a Mormon missionary woman who was doubting her testimony because of troubling things she learned about Mormon church founder Joseph Smith. Terryl’s recounting of the story was as follows:
“I was fortunate that there was a mission president in our area who knew us and our work. And there was a sister missionary who decided that she was going to leave the church. She was finishing her mission the next week and she’d made the decision to go home and leave. And her companion of course deeply distraught over this and asked the mission president “Could we go talk to brother Givens?” And he gave them permission to come and stay as long as they needed so they stayed long into the night. And I listened to one after another question and then finally it occurred to me to ask this one question. And I said to her in regard to one question in particular about Joseph Smith, and I said “Sister” I said, “Why does the answer to that question matter?” And it changed everything. It just caught her up short. And she thought for a minute and she said, “I don’t know” (Terryl chuckles). “I don’t know.”
Many (including myself) were disturbed by Terryl Givens’ story/response – particularly since it was directed at currently doubting Mormon church members. We were primarily puzzled, shocked, and somewhat disturbed that the Mormon church’s leading professional apologist – who has spent many years writing books for, and speaking/ministering to doubting Mormons – would provide such a seemingly glib and uninformed response. That said, we understand that belief issues are complex, and take Terryl at his word that he sincerely does not understand why troubling aspects of Mormon history, including newly-discovered details about Joseph Smith’s life, would matter to a questioning or doubting Mormon.
Consequently, I am launching a new social media campaign with which I could use your help. The goal of the campaign is to help educate Terryl, Fiona, other Mormon Church apologists, and the Mormon church leadership, as to why “Informed Consent” is crucial to both active Mormons and Mormon investigators.
The campaign is entitled “Why Mormon Truth Matters” – and it will involve two parts:
- A TikTok and YouTube Video Response Campaign: I am requesting that all doubting Mormons and post-Mormons please record two brief responses to the following questions on TikTok:
- A 1 minute video responding to the question: “What do I wish the Mormon church had told me?” tagging it: #mormoninformedconsent in the description, as well as tagging @mormonstoriespodcast.
- A 1 minute video responding to the question: “How did the Mormon church harm you?” tagging it: #mormonharm in the description, as well as tagging @mormonstoriespodcast.
- I am considering the possibility of writing and publishing a book about the lack of Informed Consent within Mormonism. It will basically contain two parts:
- An exploration of the main pieces of information that have been intentionally withheld from Mormons and Mormon investigators over the years, and
- All the ways that the Mormon church harmed people, which has been made possible by the lack of informed consent.
Stay tuned for more information about this project. For those interested, here is a PDF of today’s presentation.
I also feel it important to disclose that Terryl and Fiona Givens have not accepted my invitations to appear on Mormon Stories Podcast since my excommunication. Before making this presentation I extended an email invitation to the Givens’ to engage in a private/confidential dialogue with me. I hope that they will take me up on this invitation. I also hope that they will agree to return to Mormon Stories Podcast to discuss both their statement, and the overall state of informed consent within Mormonism.
HUGE thanks to Jonathan Streeter and his YouTube Channel “Thoughts on Things and Stuff” for making this video available!
50 Responses
I think that his question to the female missionary was valid. So , if JS did this or that or didn’t do this or that what effect does that have on you? Does that make him a false prophet? Was he once a prophet but fell from grace because of this or that? At what point did he fall and when did his revalations become invalid? Did God really use him to bring forth the BofM or was it all a fraud? I think this line of reasoning is valid. It has nothing to do with sidestepping or trying to discredit her question. He really wanted to know how getting an answer to question “X” would affect her and what value the answer would or could be a contributing factor in her faith.
Agreed. And well said
That’s one of the most dishonest comments I’ve ever read in the context of someone struggling with a faith crisis.
“Does it make him a false prophets?” The answer is a resounding YES!!!! The answers to the kind of questions someone going through a faith crisis asks most definitely cut right to the core of whether Joseph Smith was a true or false prophet. The answers absolutely will make or break a person’s faith.
Your response is insultingly condescending for the exact same reasons John Dehlin enumerated in the video. Your response is the equivalent of saying, “Move along. Nothing to see here.” You response is the response of someone who deep down knows he can’t satisfactorily answer the questions. It’s a disrespectful deflection, not a response.
If you watch the full video of Givens, his reaction to the second question posed to him that does not appear in John’s video is profoundly dismissive. John is exactly right in his perception of what Givens intended with the question he posed.
Because NED Truth matters, and if you find Smith a liar in any significant way, you may assume that the rest of his narrative is false. Can that be done? Yes, and you don’t need to look to anti-mormon literature or discussions. Turn to BH Roberts “History of the Church” vol 6 at page 411 where he lies about his involvement in polygamy and then ask yourself would a man of God lie about something as important to the church as marriage? Next look to all early editions of the Doctrine and Covenants and find the marriage disclaimer that was published to the world until 1876, an institutional lie that was allowed to stand as was used by others including missionaries until Brother Brigham spilled the polygamy beans officially in 1852. In short, Smith was a liar, and the institutional Church has a well documented history of obfuscation and deception. Yes NED it was a sidestep, playing on the fact that she had apparently not previously thought out the fundamental basis for her decision and wilted in the face of an easily overturned semantic sophistry. But then again, for those like you sir, as Boyd K. Packer said: “sometimes the truth is not very useful.”
No truth, no correctness comes from a lie. Lying negates any worth in effort. The effect, for all of us who lie (most of us do) is to continue to lie. JS is no exception. I was tossed from Mormonism for my lie and their view of how important that lie was to the organization. It is implausible that an organization can require more honesty and integrity from its membership than it requires of itself. That question by Givens was gas lighting to an extreme.
Gee, I dunno. We know the question was about Joseph Smith, so in that missionary’s mind (you know, the one whose questions don’t matter even though her faith crisis is such that she’s planning to leave the church when she gets home!) maybe whether or not JS was prone to lies, deceptions and/or cons is relevant to whether or not his claims should be believed. And unlike mister apologist, I do not sidestep questions. The answer is yes, being a liar and a conman would make him a fraud and a false prophet. Just another lie and just another con.
There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
I agree, I believe Terryl’s words were “Why does the answer to that particular question matter?” We have know idea what this question was. I usually agree with you John but I think you need more context to Terryl’s story to do an entire podcast response to this. I feel like there is a lot of assumptions being drawn about this particular conversation.
John I need to be honest with you. I appreciate you and everything you have done with Mormon stories. Sadly I feel like this has just become another dime a dozen ex Mormon podcast. First of all, you didn’t even know what the sister missionaries question was…. so your basing an entire podcast on a theoretical question. You don’t know what she asked. Instead you go off for an hour talking about Joseph smiths misdeeds.
Second of all, I feel like everyone that comes on your podcast acts like a complete victim. Nobody takes personal responsibility for anything. As a new order Mormon this has been hard to stomach lately. Most of my new order friends have stopped listening. Obviously TBM’s don’t want anything to do with you. So I figure it might be a good time to change the label of the podcast to EX Mormon podcast. The Givens, bushmans, and patrick mason won’t even return your calls or give you the time of day.
I used to enjoy this podcast a lot, but the credibility is gone and it’s so one sided that it’s hard to stomach anymore.
Then stop viewing them.
You are the one with no credibility. Your praising John in the beginning is clearly disingenuous, an act to come across as a decent person who’s become disappointed with John. Your negative statements are so virulent, they’re comical in comparison to the praise you led with. They make it evident that your true attitude toward him has been the virulent one all along.
So this doesn’t fit so well with your confirmation bias James. I get that. “a new order Mormon”, what is hades is that?
“Nobody takes personal responsibility for anything.” James, I’m not connecting the dots of your assertion. JD’s focus is informed consent. How is the person being lied to not taking responsibility? Especially for those raised in the Church and are taught from a very young age to explicitly trust the Church and its leaders? That its leaders represent god? That’s really your position?
There are quite large number of data points demonstrating the Q15 hiding damaging information about the Church from the members. Leonard Arrington’s biography bring to light how systemic and intentional this practice is. Boyd K Packer’s talk to CES faculty shortly after Arrington’s firing clearly show the Q15’s motivation and the moral blind spot they carry with them.
I grow up during the 70s, correlation heyday. Based on that information, I:
– Worked in a machine shop for a year after high school to fund my mission
– Served a two year mission
– Went to BYU and married a women who focus was to have a temple marriage
– Raised four children in the Church
– Navigating a mix faith marriage and family relationships
James, you really don’t feel that the Q15 shouldn’t be held accountable for placing faith in front of integrity. You seem to completely miss the gravity and damage caused by the Q15’s cult like behavior.
JAMES, what is a New Order Mormon? Is that different from a Progressive Mormon? Is there a New Order or a Progressive church in the making that is vying to win over followers online?
There does seem to be more people joining us here on Mormon Stories who are doubting, leaving, or coping with having already left the church, than there are TBMs. TBMs and Believers who want to stay and create changes from within while still retaining the community of support of their friends and family in the church do not flock to discussions with X Mormons. James, where are you aligned along this broad spectrum of Mormon to X-Mormon to anti-mormon thought?
John seems to be trying to balance the numbers and make everyone feel welcome, but that is pretty difficult. Religious traditions are based on deeply held convictions and the emotional bonds of tribal and family loyalty. Those who have chucked religion altogether usually hold beliefs and make life decisions based on practicality, and they cannot be convinced of something that does not have critical, analytical thinking behind it and tangible evidence to support it. These two different kind of mindsets can coexist in the same space only when both sides listen with respect and treat each other with kindness. Trying to win a debate, prove your point, or prove the other guy wrong, gets us nowhere. It is very hard to create a forum where these disparate kinds of mindsets can find a common ground. I think John is brave to try.
Its just like a man telling a woman not to worry her pretty little head over things that are inconsequential. Women in the Church are still treated like they are children.
The chip on your shoulder is not attractive. The church has completely changed its temple ceremony to show women the respect they deserve. If you don’t like they way women are treated them leave and quit complaining
So God has changed her mind on the temple ceremonies?
If the church were actually to change to show women the respect they deserve, they would be ordaining them to the priesthood and allowing them to serve as bishops, stake presidents, apostles and prophets. If the church were actually to change to show men and women the respect they deserve, they would stop teaching that we can only be worthy through a murderous sacrifice of God’s only begotten son and instead teach us that we are inherently worthy. If the church were actually to change to show members the respect they deserve, they would stop teaching us that we can know God through another’s revelation and instead teach us to each find God for ourselves with true freedom to interpret our own experiences as we see fit.
John. I applaud your diplomacy (after all, it’s just the way it has to work, we feel compelled to kill them with kindness while they respond with hatred and demonization). I understand it, but don’t necessarily like it. Brother Givens deserves no kind consideration here. As you point out, he knew exactly what he was doing. His response served the dual apologetic purposes of not having to provide an answer while suggesting the answer isn’t the problem, the question is. So not only does the apologist get to avoid answering a likely unanswerable question, he puts the issue back in the lap of the poor sister missionary (if there even was one. It’s not like Mormon apologists, like Mormon leaders, are above simply making things up.).
Once again you just validated my comment about being a victim. When are ex Mormons going to quit crying and take personal responsibility???
So you’re going to just run thru all the comments supporting John, and be a douche. Well done.
Personal responsibility for what? What are you talking about?
Are you trying to get me to take responsibility for apologetic drivel?
The non-answer of asking “does it matter” is absurd. Of course it mattered. She wouldn’t have even thought to use these few precious moments with this high profile apologist to ask the question if it didn’t! Besides, who is he to question whether it mattered? If it mattered to her, it mattered!! Again, all the non-answer did was get the apologist of the hook of providing an actual answer (something Mormon apologists are insanely bad at doing) and give him a chance to act like the question and the questioner are the actual problem.
By the way, I was NOM for several years and was active on the New Order Mormon message board as InsideLookingOut, before the board disappeared for awhile and came back a shell of it’s former self. I don’t know what it looks like now, I haven’t been back in several months.
I believe I cannot describe in few sentences how Mormon church harmed me, without creating background history and parental relationships, because I believe my parents lacked healthy relationship much of it due to mormon upbringing. However, hopefully a short version is the church harmed me from developing healthy loving friendships with girls because of the churches gaslighting, grooming 101, guilting around masturbation. I Just have to say, prior to the church doing all the above when I was naive, innocent 14 year old. That summer I had a fun innocent love friendship with a first love. We walked home from church together, then I would walk to my house thinking about her and those thoughts replaced my desire to masturbate. That ended that fall when the bishop started his grooming 101 around masturbation. From then on thoughts of suicide ocurred when I forced myself for 8 months without wacking-off. or in my case climbing poles to get the effect. I now believe healthy masturbation allows loving relationships to develop organically. This is the really short version; but the long version is even 10 or 20 pages. But needs to be told to put things in context.
It goes without saying that truth matters, especially in a church that has consistently claimed since its inception to be the one, true church on the face of the earth. No amount of evidence will dissuade those who want to believe, and no amount of obfuscation will persuade those who can see through the misdirection, distraction, and half truths of apologetics.
James has a valid point here. I too feel that MS is becoming all anti-Mormon of late.
Then, as Givens noted, those questions don’t matter at all.
If Joseph was this or that, an adulterer or a criminal, or a treasure digger or gold digger, it doesn’t matter!
In the church and the gospel, it’s all about the Spirit, the whole Spirit and nothing but the Spirit. Our relationship with the divine is via the Spirit to God the Father and Jesus. Joseph was just some editor or publicist who put some writings together, but if he wrote it all while at home after a treasure digging session or in jail accused of treason? it doesn’t matter. That is why progressive Mormons aren’t listening to you much these days John Dehlin.
Often when Juries consider the credibility of a witness the court will give them an this instruction before they deliberate. In Latin- “falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus”. If you are not up on your latin, the phrase means false in one thing false in everything. Such matter sir, unless you have an infallible connection to a perfect understanding. And if you think you have that, I am truly sorry for you. Do you have any idea how many christian religion teach the same notion of the spirit? You think you are special… don’t you, don’t you?
Actually, I think ol’ Chuck’s comment may have been a joke.
I suspect that about 99.999% of all progressive Mormons would say whether or not Smith was an adulterer, criminal, treasure digger, gold digger not only matters, but like that missionary’s sincere question and cry for help, it matters immensely!!!
Or should we believe what all liars, adulterers and money diggers say if they told if we close our eyes and count to twee we might get a warm fuzzy when they say it?
I consider myself to be a “progressive Mormon”. I’ve been listening to John Dehlin since the days he only had a list of some 11 podcasts in a basic webpage (or was it a blog?, can’t remember now, it’s been so long). I also enjoy Bill Reel/RFM’s podcast now and then. And FMH. These issues interest me. But what all those podcasters/communicators of anti-Mormon topics are missing is that HG part and the part it plays in a progressive Mormons testimony or belief system. Sure, some progressives have lost that holy ghost or don’t remember it today. But belief is all about the HG and what it tells you, what he speaks to your heart, deep down where no one else can reach. So then an adulterer or a prisoner doing life or even pres Nelson can come and speak to me, but if the HG isn’t there testifying that what they say is true…..well then it is not. And conversely, if that influence of the HG is there when they speak, well then I take it to be true. As before, it’s all about the HG and what it testifies to us. Without it, at best, we have a history lecture or philosophical discussion.
Infallible is what comes from God via the Holy Ghost. So yes, we could argue that we have an infallible connection to a perfect understanding, (ie in God) which is what the Holy Ghost blesses people with. Joseph Smith doesn’t play a part in that anymore. Well, actually he never did. He only wrote the visions he saw and the impressions he felt. It’s up to each of us to work out if they are true or not -via the holy ghost. And if they came from God, also via the holy ghost. So, again, the Holy Ghost is the important part here and we’d do well to find him, for today and all eternity.
Again, if JS was a treasure digger, it doesn’t matter. If he was an adulterer, it doesn’t matter today, …Actually, I stand corrected, it matters to JS and JS only since he would have to pay for that sin just like King David had to. But I doubt he was an adulterer, it doesn’t add up overall. Same with treason, seeing they broke IN to the jail to kill him. They just wanted him dead. And they all got away with murder!
And yes, most Christian religions will teach about the holy ghost, it is in the new testament. Jesus left to heaven and in his place, the holy ghost stayed with us.
(by the way, the church and religion, in general, is not a court of law where “falus in uno” can be used, since it’s all about the spirit, the whole spirit and nothing but the spirit -so help us God )
You really have a perverted view of credibility. “It doesn’t matter that Smith committed adultery, or was a deceiver”, (or ordered the murder of a Governor). Of course it matters. When evaluating Smith’s truth claims, historical facts certainly matter. You are just side stepping the issue by making the assertion (unprovable) that the Holy Ghost and time passing makes all that irrelevant . This is a defense of the willfully ignorant. Your spiritual defense is just vaper gone with the wind.
Willfully ignorant, Nice!
Spiritual defense is all there is in the long run. I hope one day you will realize this , before it’s too late.
JD,
This year, more than ever, you’ve really honed your talking points about the moral obligation the Church has to stop hiding information from its members:
– Informed consent:for as long as I can remember the Q15 has been laser focused on getting the youth entrenched in the faithful path of going on a mission, temple marriage, having children. Their focus on this strategy of creating lifelong Mormons has blinded them to the moral implications of requesting such deep and life defining commitments based on partial information. This discussion segues into the concrete talking points of…
– Unethical persuasion: Currently, Church apologists feel that the end justifies the means. Look at the countless Mormons who feel lied to, who experience conflict and divorce over disjointed belief systems, who fee defrauded of substantial time and money donated.
Such a worthy project.
People like Terryl keep preaching that faith is a choice. I get so frustrated with this statement. As a 64 year old who has been taught from my youth that JS was a prophet and that we have been lead by a prophet ever since his death, this is offensive. When I left for my full time missionary in 1978, I believed that Jesus himself lead this church. Spenser Kimball told me that it was my responsibility to serve a mission by direct commandment from God. Don’t now tell me that Faith is a choice, as if all the issue with Mormon history can just be sweep under the rug. I taught lessons to investigators that were not based in truth. If I still had my color coded lessons I would revise them with truth, just to go back to many converts to see if they would still have joined the church?
People like Terryl keep preaching that faith is a choice. I get so frustrated with this statement. As a 64 year old who has been taught from my youth that JS was a prophet and that we have been lead by a prophet ever since his death, this is offensive. When I left for my full time missionary in 1978, I believed that Jesus himself lead this church. Spenser Kimball told me that it was my responsibility to serve a mission by direct commandment from God. Don’t now tell me that Faith is a choice, as if all the issue with Mormon history can just be sweep under the rug. I taught lessons to investigators that were not based in truth. If I still had my color coded lessons I would revise them with truth, just to go back to many converts to see if they would still have joined the church?
Hey John!
Seriously expecting the Mormon Church to disclose the “inconvenient truths” about Joseph Smith’s shocking behaviors to prospective members (b.i.c. 8-year-olds and adult investigators) is patently absurd for two reasons:
1. 8-year-olds are way too young to understand … let alone meaningfully process … this subject matter. In fact, it would be abusive to expose children to most of this information. Mormon kids are taught a whitewashed cartoon version of Church history … and their idyllic, imaginary future growing up LDS and living happily ever after. At age 8, they are … in reality … joining a cartoon Church that does not actually exist as depicted in the cartoon story downloaded into kid brains from birth.
2. If prospective adult investigators were given full disclosure of what The Brethren do not want them to hear (for obvious reasons), virtually NOBODY who is not mentally ill would EVER agree to be baptized and become a Mormon.
John, your statement saying it’s fine with you if someone STILL wants to join the Church … AFTER full disclosure … hits me as quite disingenuous. The only people who would voluntarily join such a morally bankrupt organization would be doing so for some ulterior reason … like, for example, to marry someone who will otherwise dump them if they don’t convert, etc.
Your invitation to Terryl Givens to be interviewed again on Mormon Stories … AFTER your thorough evisceration of the long list of Truth Claim Fails … naming them in detail … one-by-one … comes across as an intelligence test for Brother Givens. On the other hand, you demonstrated with Jim Bennet (MS#1377) that you are indeed capable of a mutually respectful and civilized conversation with a faithful TBM … so if Brother Givens is feeling brave, courageous and bold, he could accept your invitation and put his apologetic muscles to the test. I doubt he wants that level of challenge, particularly when he has to know on some level that Richard Bushman spoke the truth … that the correlated narrative is on thin ice … on account of its foundation of falsehoods.
Kudos for embracing TikTok with Cara’s guidance! I’m following your installments … checking in often for new content.
I am a stalwart MS donor, and I encourage others reading this to step up and chip in a few bucks a month. It would be a tragedy to lose John Dehlin’s massive ongoing contribution to the Plan of Eternal Progression … including the highest and best path forward … to escape the real, here and now Spirit Prison before you die.
Why are you forcing us to have to register with TikTok to engage with you? Many of us have serious security issues with that service. That’s a deal breaker for me to contribute to your projects.
John, I agree with your approach. Truth matters. There is obviously an attempt here to smear you with the anti-Mormon label as if you have gone “too far” and can now be disregarded. It is not your fault that the deeper one searches for truth in Mormonism, one finds a bigger and nastier mess of problems. Press on.
Keep up the good work, John. Many of us are silenced trying to maintain healthy relationships. We need you. The truth does matter.
I believe a legitimate response to Terryl might be, “why does it not matter, Terry”? Could it be that like Hugh Nibley, you know who butter’s your bread? I was told by a former BYU professor, a friend of mine, that Hugh told him the church was not what it claimed to be, but that he knew who buttered his bread. Is that the case with you Terryl. Perhaps a better legacy would be that of Sterling McMurrin who left his church employment rather than compromise his integrity. That is also what my referenced friend did, sought employment elsewhere rather than continue the farce! I admire him greatly for that decision!
Yes, Joseph Smith was a polygamist and practiced polyandry . . . but why was he so successful at the practices? What allowed him to manipulate relationships with all those women and the husbands of the already married women and the parents of young girls?
In my opinion, the most basic and sinister deception of Joseph Smith was his significant misrepresentation of the God and Jesus of the Bible. That allowed him to establish a new religious system within which he could manipulate female relationships. His fabricated God and Jesus allowed him the freedom to establish a new understanding of heaven, which included ways to enter into exaltation in the celestial kingdom. The resultant promise of families forever and other celestial blessings seems to me to be the tool he used to coerce many women into relationships with him.
If my understanding is correct, I think it would be extremely important for a young woman to understand more about Joseph Smith and the way he used the system to manipulate women. I agree with John Dehlin that the comment of Terryl Givens was dismissive of a legitimate question that demands real answers. So, why does the answer to the question about Joseph Smith matter? The answer is that it does not matter . . . unless the person asking the question values the truth. In that case, it matters a lot.
The lies about and misrepresentation of God and Jesus started at the beginning . . . with the First Vision. I wrote more about the subject when I commented on the Mormon Stories Podcast interview of Jana Spangler. I will link the interview so anyone interested can read my comment in the comment section of that interview.
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/contemplative-mormonism-jana-spangler/
I think this and the Bushman podcast are missing the point of what they are trying to do. Based on what I have read from the Givenses and Bushman, I think the point is NOT to pretend that Joseph Smith didn’t do all of the things listed here (although there certainly is room for healthy historical debate on some of these issues). But rather to suggest that we have constructed a set of cultural assumptions about what a prophet is and is not that we then use to judge JS. (Much of this is a product of whitewashed church history that individuals such as Bushman have worked to correct.) I don’t personally see them as trying to gaslight or deceive, but instead see them as suggesting that faith doesn’t have to be abandoned in the pursuit of historical accuracy. We can use history to inform our assessment of JS (and other church leaders), but deciding whether or not he is a prophet is a theological question more than a historical one. By this logic, a lot of it comes down to how we think a prophet should or shouldn’t act, and recognizing our own biases and assumptions about what constitutes a “prophet” is, I think, at the heart of Givens’ response to the young missionary. (We don’t have the full context, so I could be wrong.) This isn’t to say I completely agree with Givens, but I think his point still has some value — especially when it comes to reconstructing a Mormon theology for the twenty-first century.
Well, yes, if you think a prophet can be a lying, cheating, scoundrel, in any cultural or historical context, go right ahead and believe that God choose him to be the prophet of the restoration and the greatest second only to Christ. I’ll pass.
I actually don’t disagree with you, Kevin, but my point was to suggest that they are talking past each other. I don’t see this as leading to much dialogue because both sides are engaging with the issues in different ways. I think Givens and others such as Bushman and Mason can still see JS as a theological genius despite these numerous issues. And I don’t think this is an irrational conclusion, even though many of us view it differently. I just feel like this wasn’t a very sincere attempt at trying to understand what Givens really meant, leading to a lot of mischaracterizations that don’t represent his larger body of work. I hope that Terryl and Fiona come on MS again, but worry that segments such as this will further prevent that from happening.
I understand your concerns, Walt. They are legitimate concerns. My question for you would be the following. Do you think the real “theological genius” of Joseph Smith was in establishing a theological system in which people could worship God or do you think his real genius was more along the lines of establishing a religious system in which he could take advantage of women? Some would call that an evil or criminal genius. His system seemed to provide him with a significant number of female companions. Whether that was his plan from the beginning or just something that developed along the way is not clear to me but the end result was the same.
If you read my prior comment, you will have a better understanding of why I am asking the question. If your answer is that Joseph was more interested in women than religion, do you think Terryl Givens and others in the Church who study these matters should also be aware of the situation? It seems to me that the conundrum apologists face is that if they reveal the entire truth about the matter, there is a significant likelihood any woman inquiring about the matter will be devastated by the answers she receives. That, in turn, might influence her decision to leave the Church.
As always, I try to write with gentleness and respect. I think you have made some good points. I am not disagreeing with you, only asking questions.
Thanks for the respectful response, Bill. To clarify, I wasn’t saying that I think JS was a theological genius, but that this tends to be the position of individuals such as Givens. I’m not a scholar of early Mormonism but i think it is probably fair to say that while we know a lot about JS and the early church, we are also missing a lot of data points that prevent us from reconstructing a 100% objective portrait of JS. All history relies on both historical sources (which reflect the biases of the authors of said sources) combined with the subjective interpretation of the biographer or historian. This leaves a lot of room for disagreement among even the most intelligent and honest of scholars. Givens and Bushman see JS differently than John, but that doesn’t invalidate their work or mean that they aren’t willing to tell the “truth.” It just means that their interpretation of the data is different. I think it is also possible to use that data to construct a nuanced view of JS as someone who created a religious tradition that is at different times outstanding and horrific. My guess is that this is how Givens and Bushman see things.
I obviously think members need to learn everything they can about church history. At the same time, the reasons why members choose to stay engaged after learning the history varies considerably. Does learning about JS mean that someone has to abandon their faith or involvement in the church? Perhaps another way of reading Givens response is to say that the answers to any given question are as important as what we choose to do with those answers. Informed consent is really important. So is recognizing that not everyone who stays in the church does so out of some romanticized view of church history — or ignorance of said history.
So I guess my point is to say that I think it is unfair to critique Givens and Bushman for 1) not seeing JS in the same way that we do, and 2) expecting them to criticize JS and the church in the same way and with the same tone as Mormon Stories. Bushman, Givens, and Mason are doing a ton to help transform Mormon theology and the church. My fear is that episodes such as this will only drive a deeper wedge between both those in and out of the church that are striving for change. We need more dialogue and collaboration. We need Mormon Stories alongside individuals such as Givens working within the church. What we don’t not (in my opinion) are these kinds of quasi ad hominem attacks that impede progress. I would love to hear your thoughts!
Well said. I think that you, James and I are on the same page concerning this matter. We DON’T know what were the details of this conversation that Givens had with this sister missionary and he was ‘possibly’ trying to get to the heart of the matter in her concerns. Along with James it seems to me that Dr. John is moving in almost always a negative direction with Mormon Stories. Definitely not fair and balanced. It is his program and can do as he sees fit. This is one of the freedoms that the United States of America offers to it’s citizens. We are not forced to agree with or listen / watch his productions. What I would like to see and would recommend is to put forth a plain agenda that defines the programs focus. A predetermined message would help those who might be interested in a positive back and forth dialogue determine if the show is for them or not. 97.68% negative is not conducive to open discussions.
“ The stream of truth flows through its channels of mistakes”
JD, I appreciate what you are doing, there are so many people who are strengthened and made better on both sides of this paradigm from someone like you and someone like Terryl Givens. I would think that your audience here is very comfortable with your stump speech on Joseph Smith infallibility, like a warm blanket or your favorite comfort food, just can’t resist wrapping up in it once you get it going. The lack of context is a big problem, maybe you don’t see it that way and perhaps that is just as big a problem. Calling Terryl the most visible paid apologist in the church is pretty interesting coming from you. The label is perfectly appropriate if we wanna use it that way, can we turn your lens back on itself or is that an irrelevant question?
This comment is a reply to the comment Walt made on July 8, 2021 at 9:44 PM. Since there was not an option for a reply to that comment, I will paste my reply here.
Thanks for the response Walt and for the tone of your comment. It is written in the manner of a person who is a peacemaker. I admire the type of response you gave. People like you have considerable value in discussions about matters relating to the difficulties many people see with the Latter-day Saint Church. As I understand your comments, you are trying to provide a voice of reason that comes from a position of love and concern for others.
If you read my prior comment and followed the link I gave, you know I am a mainstream Christian. For that reason, I probably know far less about Mr. Givens than you do. I do not know where he is coming from when he makes a statement or writes an article or comment. Personally, I would have a great deal of difficulty not concluding that Joseph Smith was a scoundrel of the first degree based on what is known of him from history. Assuming Terryl Givens has at least as much information about Joseph Smith as I have, it is difficult for me to think that he would not have reached the same conclusions I have reached.
The word church is used quite a bit when referring to the Latter-day Saint organization. It is kind of a nebulous word. The real power behind the word church is people. Terryl Givens is one of the people who is a voice of the “Church”. He is a real flesh and blood person who represents the organization. For that reason, I think he should represent Church history fully and accurately. My difficulty is that I hear from others who have been in the Church that they feel significantly betrayed when they discover the true history of the church.
So, the question becomes the following. Is Mr. Givens doing everything in his power to honestly and fully answer all questions posed to him by other members of the Church . . . or . . . is he intentionally holding back information in order to protect the organization from legitimate criticism and the resultant membership loss? You would be a better person to answer that question than I would be. I am concerned that the problem with the Church runs very deep. To me, the Church seems to have been built on a foundation of sand rather than rock. Once the foundational truth is fully revealed to many people who had been active members, the faith that had been built on that foundation collapses.
I don’t know where you stand at the present time, Walt. I don’t know if you are still in the Church or now out of it. What I do know is that the faith transition journey is, in the words of John Dehlin, a brutal experience. You have my sympathy for whatever you have experienced and will experience during your personal journey. As a mainstream Christian, I have encouraged and will continue to encourage you and any others to follow the true Jesus as revealed in the Bible alone. The tone of your comments seems to already reflect that tendency. Thank you once again.
While I am not very good at it myself, I too can appreciate the calmer tone of some of these comments. So my thanks to all that taking that approach.
What I do not understand about the James’ and Walt’s and other believers/nuanced believers is how and why they feel the need to continue trying to rebuild the dyke when that is such a common traditional role in religious history.
What I mean by that is, sure, if you really want you can find ways to excuse Joseph Smith for his foibles (or sins or crimes, or whatever) and claim that God could still work thru such a vessel. But if you actually want to be honest, you then have to make the same claim for pretty much any and every other “prophet” or religious leader out there, past or present. Your excusing or understanding of Smith’s doings or any of the other problematic areas of Mormon history is no different from Jehovah’s Witness or Seventh Day Adventist doing the same for their leadership. So your church (JW) said that Jesus would return on multiple different dates, and it never happened? No worries, you just announce that he really did arrive on that last date, but just in spirit . So it’s all good. Voila, you’re a progressive Witness! Your church’s past is messy and entirely inconsistent with it’s claims and it’s supposed role in the world, but hey, you found a way to excuse it and make it all okay. And not only that, but you felt good about the conclusion you reached, so clearly the HG was there to confirm the truth of it to you!
Versions of that scenario can take place for nearly all religions in all times and in all places. If you feel the need to believe a certain way, you can make it work, and again, if it feels right, say the HG was there to confirm it. Just like a JW can do that with their church history, a Catholic can do the same with former pope issues, and on and on it goes for one sect or theology after another. The problem I see with that (besides the obvious “anything can be true if you want it to”) for Mormonism is that Mormonism makes some of the most profound and specific truth claims, many of which are the most profoundly falsifiable of any ever put forward. I mean, if it takes a world of excusing and rationalization to uphold the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as the word of God as claimed, why do it? Why not put those issues together with the other mass of problems with Mormon truth claims and just accept the very uncomfortable and unfortunate, but very obvious answer to the problem? In other words, why not put on your big kid pants and just deal with the inescapable reality that stares you in the face? If you need to rationalize, excuse, and nuance so you can keep faith in God’s one true church, is it really God’s one true church? Or is God the source of all truth and light, yet somehow a deceiver at the same time, whose church can only be “true” if truth itself is redefined as, well, not necessarily “truth” truth, but whatever we want truth to be? If that’s what you have to do to make it work, guess what, your religion is no different from any other. They can all do that.
A couple of quick thoughts and clarifications.
I think it is unfair for John to call into question Givens’ intellect and integrity by implying that Givens doesn’t care about truth. I agree that the story Givens tells doesn’t look good, but to use this (unfortunate) exchange to characterize his scholarship and integrity is, I feel, disingenuous and unfair. (Am I repeating myself? I think I’m repeating myself.)
But more to your comment, I’m not that interested in “rebuilding the dyke.” I’m not interested in dogma and neither are a lot of other millennials that I have interacted with both in Utah and in other parts of the US. I’m not interested in fundamentalist approaches to viewing Mormon history and theology. Heck, I don’t need JS to be a prophet to find deep meaning and purpose in my involvement with the church. I recognize that this isn’t the orthodox position of the LDS church, but I think it increasingly characterizes how a lot of the younger generation thinks and how they approach their relationship with religion.
I probably come across as overly defensive because I still feel deeply connected to a lot of the great aspects of Mormon culture and theology. I agree that there are a lot of terrible parts of our culture that need to be gutted (racism, homophobia, sexism, …). I think cultural changes are trending in the right direction — although it obviously isn’t moving quickly enough. For many, leaving is still the best decision. But I’m not convinced that the solution is to burn the whole thing to the ground. I personally hope that doesn’t happen.
I don’t see the LDS church falling apart anytime soon. And while it is still here, I hope it becomes a healthier space for everyone. Mormon theology has been constantly evolving since JS and will continue to evolve. I applaud the progress that has been made and I think individuals such as Givens and Bushman and Mason are doing a ton in this regard. For example, Bushman has done a lot to promote greater transparency with our history. The Givenses have provided subtle but strong criticisms of our views of Jesus, sin, salvation, and the atonement. They have critiqued our culture of shame and guilt and instead proposed a theology centered on love and mercy. And Mason has most recently argued that we need to move away from the notion of the one and only true church, instead embracing the idea of particularism rather than exceptionalism. While I don’t agree with everything they say, I think their work is helping the church move in a healthier direction.
And for the record, I’m not opposed to a lot of negativity and criticism, so long as it is pointed in the right direction. And in my mind, this and the Bushman episode raise a ton of important issues and questions that are aimed at the wrong individuals.
Walt and Fatfinger,
Thanks to both of you gentlemen for keeping the conversation friendly during this discussion. Obviously the two of you have very different perspectives. Like Walt, I am going to repeat myself to a certain degree. Even though I can see all of the problems with the Church that Fatfinger has pointed out, I also appreciate the point Walt is making about the changes the Church is making as it goes forward. One of the biggest changes that seems to be occurring is a move away from an emphasis on Joseph Smith and toward Jesus instead. While that seems to be progress, the doctrine of exaltation and the possibility of becoming gods remains.
The link I gave in my first comment in the comment section of this podcast explains in greater detail why I think the doctrine of men becoming gods is so foundationally incorrect. It is part of the reason I wrote that the foundation of the Church is a sandy one. It was originally built on the teachings of Joseph Smith instead of the rock foundation of Jesus Christ. That is why I do not think it will stand up to the test of time in the same way that the worldwide Christian church of mainstream believers has done.
This paragraph is for Walt. I want to write it gently but with concern. If you are a person who thinks you will become exalted as a god someday and be worshiped by others, I think you will be in real danger when you face God on the day of judgment. It is my personal opinion that he will not see that position favorably. If, on the other hand, you are now trying to follow Jesus alone without aspirations to become a god, why not just join a Bible believing mainstream Christian congregation or simply sincerely repent of your sin, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, read the Bible, worship God in nature and pray as you are led by the Holy Spirit. In addition, start giving your tithing money to an organization that will use that money wisely to help others in need instead of giving it to a hoarding organization.
The following two paragraphs are for Fatfinger. Based on what you wrote, it seems that you have little love for organized religion. After watching numerous Mormon Stories Podcasts, I understand and empathize with your perspective. I have written previously in comments on other podcasts that I probably would hold that same perspective myself if I had been an active believing member of the church and felt betrayed when I fully learned about all the problems you mentioned.
On the other hand, I have a strong interest in neuroscience. I am not a neuroscientist but I have studied the brain at the cellular level. I am convinced by what I have learned that the complexity of the brain at the cellular level demands an intelligence of some kind. It is my personal opinion that the intelligence responsible for the function of every neuron in your brain is God. Researchers studying the protein-protein interactions within yeast cells estimated that all the possible or potential protein-protein interactions in a single yeast cell of the type they were studying was ten to the power of seventy nine billion (10^79,000,000,000). If you know anything about exponential numbers, you will understand that the number is unimaginably large. Since researchers have estimated that average neurons have about 49,950,000,000 more proteins than average yeast cells, you can easily understand that there is unbelievably complexity within just the protein-protein interactions alone within each neuron in your brain. When you add in all the other inter and intra cellular molecular and neurochemical interactions within the brain, the human mind cannot comprehend that complexity.
For both Walt and Fatfinger, I would like to suggest a book by Michael Kruger. Dr. Kruger is now a New Testament scholar. As a freshman in college, his faith was significantly challenged by a professor he had for a religion class. The name of his professor was Bart Ehrman. Bart is now well known for his very liberal interpretation of the Bible. Since Dr. Kruger recently had a daughter entering college, he wanted her to be better prepared for the questions about religion that she might have while she was in college. The book is written in a loving manner as letters from a father to a daughter. The name of the book is Surviving Religion 101. It is a very easy to read book that addresses the majority of issues that have been raised by many guests and others who comment on the Mormon Stories Podcasts.
Thanks to both Walt and Fatfinger for the cordial conversation. We three have very different perspectives but I think it is good that we can discuss these important issues with a softer tone. I do wish each of you the very best as you continue your journey on a life path that sometimes doesn’t have all the answers. In spite of that, we each have to face hardships and make decisions as we travel. Sometimes facing those hardships and making those decisions is not easy. Personally, I prefer to travel the journey of life with the God and Jesus revealed in the Bible alone. It is what makes the most sense to me.
Thanks Bill.
I appreciate your comments and perspective.