Introduction and Episode Setup

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 18, 2022. We are on part three of an epic interview with Dr. Randy Bell. Hey, Randy Bell.

Randy Bell [00:00:15] Hey, Dr. John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Welcome back.

Randy Bell [00:00:17] It's great to be back. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Yeah, we did six hours with Randy Bell. The first three hours were about his Orange County Mormon story. And it's just another one of those classic long form, really interesting journeys where Randy was, you know, raised as a Mormon in Orange county, did all the Mormon stuff, had a faith crisis and came out a little bit destabilized. And then part two of our interview was Randy talking about how he investigated atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity and how he's settled into Christianity as an identity, as a belief system, as a form of spirituality and his approach to life. And I would say the type of Christianity is kind of like relaxed, low key, nonjudgmental, compassionate, flexible, non, non literal necessarily at times, but, but still believing in faithful Christianity. And that's what parts one and two were. Randy, anything else you want to add to that?

Randy Bell [00:01:33] I would just say non dogmatic. I'm anti dogma.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] Anti dogma Christian. Yeah. And so what we thought would be super cool would be to have an. An hardcore vicious, severe, just mean spirited atheist.

Allan Mount [00:01:53] So mean.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] In the name of Allan Mount.

Randy Bell [00:01:56] Doctor.

Allan Mount [00:01:57] Doctor. I have a bachelor's degree in economics. I want you both to know, and

Randy Bell [00:02:01] you're smarter than both.

Allan Mount [00:02:02] And I've never used it once.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Allan Mount's in the house. Allan Mount is co host of the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast with his dear wife Katie, who's actually smarter than Allan, which is not easy.

Allan Mount [00:02:17] It's true. She opted not to come today and that was. That is clear evidence of her intellect. No, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] It's good to have you, Allan. And Allan is not only co host of Marriage on a Tightrope, he's also a hardcore tiktoker. You've got like 200,000 followers on TikTok, is that right?

Allan Mount [00:02:38] I'm not counting, but it's 179.9 thousand. But who's counting? Who's counting?

John Dehlin [00:02:47] And I think the most important distinction of Allan Mount is that he is my workout buddy.

Allan Mount [00:02:52] Monday, Wednesday, Friday we go and we get swole at Eos. So it's pretty nice.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] And if you can tell my muscles

Allan Mount [00:03:01] are bulging, it's working. I will say. Can I. Can I pay you a compliment, John?

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Okay, sure.

Allan Mount [00:03:05] Okay. Here we go. I've been going for a couple of years trying to build some muscle strength and I'm feeling pretty good leg day. I outlift you, is that fair to say? On leg day? But then we get on the bench and you're just like. And I just. I can't outlift you on the bench. And you're 10 years older than me and I mean, I think my shoulders are a little more Arnold esque. Arnoldesque? Is that a word? It is now. You lift well, John. You do good.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] I think you're injured though. Isn't that part of it?

Allan Mount [00:03:36] Oh, we're just being kind to each other, aren't we?

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Allan was an NCAA athlete. He played volleyball for ucla, which was his all was like a top five level. And then he went to byu, which is also pretty much always a top five level school. So Allan's and his brother, whom I've met, played on a national championship volleyball team at ucla.

Allan Mount [00:04:01] Absolutely. He's got a ring.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah, he's got a ring. So anyway, we're super glad to have you here, Allan. I didn't mean to say you're a mean spirited hardcore atheist, but.

Allan Mount [00:04:09] Oh, take it. It's fine.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] But you do identify as atheist, is that right?

Allan Mount [00:04:14] I do. Very purposefully, yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] Okay. And that, that makes you a spiritual or satanic cousin to care Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:04:22] Welcome to I'll be the bean spirited atheist today.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Yay, Carah. It's good to have you. Welcome back.

Carah Burrell [00:04:30] Yeah, I had a great discussion yesterday with Randy and I just. I loved hearing his story and now I'm gonna get vicious.

Randy Bell [00:04:36] No, just kidding. Oh, yeah, bring it on.

Carah Burrell [00:04:37] No, no, no. Yeah, this is going to be fun.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] And this is the world's longest introduction where we've said almost nothing. But we've established rapport.

Allan Mount [00:04:46] We've built a nice rapport that's important.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] It's to help Randy and. And Allan feel a little more comfortable. Carah, I'm hoping you feel comfortable.

Carah Burrell [00:04:54] I'm always comfortable.

Defining the Dialogue: Theist, Atheist, and Agnostic

John Dehlin [00:04:55] All right. All right. So this is the idea for today. The idea for today is to model a constructy, healthy dialogue between a theist, which is. Randy. Randy, do you identify as a theist?

Randy Bell [00:05:11] Sure, yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] I think we talked yesterday. Tell me if I'm right. You identify as an agnostic theist. Is that true?

Randy Bell [00:05:20] Well, yeah, I use the word agnostic. I mean, you know, that's a big topic. I like the word agnostic because it means questioning, it means seeking, and which I am. I'm kind of new to Christianity. In terms of mainstream Christianity. But yeah, I think that's all fair.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] So an agnostic theist. We talked about this yesterday. Tell me if I'm right. It means that you're, you know, you're open, you have epistemic humility, you realize that you could be wrong, but you choose to have faith in Christianity because it works for you and you've analyzed the evidence and for you, you found the evidence to be compelling. So you choose to believe with humility. And so you're, the believing part makes you a theist. And the sort of humility part is kind of, I associate that with agnosticism where you're like, I could be wrong, but this is kind of where I'm putting my, my beliefs based on evidence.

Randy Bell [00:06:13] I think it's fair. I mean, I think that who knows where I'll be a year from now, but I've landed on Christianity. But I, you know, the rule number one when you get into academia when in critical thinking is having an open construct. And, and I feel like I kind of got into trouble kind of falling asleep at the wheel and not really questioning. So I'm always open to new evidence, I'm always open to new ideas. And I feel strongly from every dimension. I look at where I'm talking to intelligent Hindus or atheists or whatever. I always feel like I'm learning something. So it's just a great conversation, but it's not.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] I know Jesus is the only one true way.

Randy Bell [00:06:57] It's not that I don't even know what I'm gonna have for lunch. I mean, but that being said, yeah, I do have faith in Christ. I think that he had profound teachings that even despite all the Bart Ehrman issues with the biblical transcript, I think it's compelling evidence. But, but, you know, Jesus said himself, you know, love your neighbor. He even said, love your, your enemy. So that's, that's kind of what I'm going to go with it through the rest of my life, regardless of, of what modifications I make to my beliefs. So, yeah, keep it open.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] All right. I love it. All right. So Allan, how, if you're trying to self identify along the same two axes, tell us, tell us a little bit about your, your identity.

Allan Mount [00:07:46] Yeah, I would say that I am an agnostic atheist, not a gnostic atheist. So I don't claim to know or have proof that God is not there, but I don't have compelling reason to believe that God is there. I haven't been. God certainly hasn't shown me a reason to believe that he Is there He, he, she, it, they, whatever that could be.

Allan Mount [00:08:09] And the agnostic part of it is I would. This is where I think a lot of these bridges can be built, where I want to remain humble as well, and I want to remain dedicated to whatever is true. I just want to know what is true.

Allan Mount [00:08:23] Come hell or high. Come heck or high water. Come hell or high water. How uncomfortable the truth may be. I just want. I want to, To. To figure it out. So if there is a compelling reason, and this is my. What my challenge would be to many that identify as atheist is if there is a compelling reason to believe that Christ resurrected or that Christ was atoned for our sins, find it.

Allan Mount [00:08:55] And if someone says, I've got that evidence, listen to it, that's where I try to sit. I'm pretty skeptical that that compelling evidence is there.

Carah Burrell [00:09:06] Mm.

Allan Mount [00:09:06] But again, that's, that's kind of how I, how I identify. And, and I've said many times before that if, if there is a God out there, that that is what the. What usual Christian God theory or theology says that that God is that God will understand that I was using the faculties that he, she, it. They gave me. And in order to come to the best determination on my own. And so that if I die and that there is something after this, awesome. This isn't the end of everything wonderful, but that God will say, hey, you missed something, and the missionary just happened not to mention it. Not your fault. So if that. That's kind of where I stand, I'm sure we can get into a whole lot more than that.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] I love it.

Randy Bell [00:09:57] I love it too. I. That all resonates. Can I ask you a question, Al? No.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Shoot.

Randy Bell [00:10:03] Can I ask you, John? No, but I mean, when, when you. And I love the fact you say agnostic atheists, because I think we're all agnostic if we're honest, you know. But when you hear the word, you know, you tell people you're an atheist, what kind of responses do you get from kind of, you're sitting in your seat. What kind of. And how do those responses make you feel? Can you share some of that?

Allan Mount [00:10:27] So sure. I mean, by the look of me, you can tell that I'm a big, big teddy bear that gets his feelings hurt very easily. No, I honestly like everybody. I don't want people to not like me. And for, for very purposeful. I mentioned in the very beginning, John, that the. I use the term atheist on purpose. And it's for that exact reason that there are a lot of misconceptions and a lot of things that come to your mind when to. For many believers, not all or even most believers, you've helped me with the legalistic terms and what to avoid.

Allan Mount [00:11:01] So I use that term because I want to be an example of what an example that those, those misconstrued preconceptions are wrong. Because a lot of people feel like an atheist. Oh, you're an atheist? Well, I'm not going to trust you. I'm not going to trust that you're going to do the right thing. You don't. You're not going to have integrity. You have no reason or morality or compelling excuse to do what's right when it comes to crunch time. And I'm certainly not going to let my kids come over to your house because I have no idea what's going to be going on there.

Allan Mount [00:11:34] And I think a lot of, A lot of folks that have left the church that still believe deal with a lot of that as well.

Randy Bell [00:11:40] Sure.

Allan Mount [00:11:40] Where even if they remain believers in Christ, you left the church. I'm not having my kids play with your kids. That can happen. And hopefully it doesn't happen as much as. As we fear it does. But that, that sort of stuff is why I am loud and why I do call myself an atheist. Because I want people to, to, to see. Wait a minute. He doesn't act or talk like I would expect an atheist to, to act or talk.

Randy Bell [00:12:06] Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you come across as anything but those stereotypes. And, and I mean, when you get this harsh reaction, I mean, what, what's going on in terms of how do you feel about it? I mean, what, how's that, what does that do to your psyche?

Allan Mount [00:12:22] Well, I mean, it's hard. I think that over the last. It's been almost five years since kind of my transition away from the church occurred and probably three and a half of those years I would have labeled myself as an atheist. I think you build a.

Allan Mount [00:12:41] If it's not a thick skin, it's a very viscous layer on top of you. That is a gross way of putting. Is viscous where things don't necessarily bounce off of you. But the nice thing is is that you, you start to understand why people hold the positions that they do. And it's harder to turn a mirror on yourself and realize I hold my positions for the same reasons. And I can be stubborn as well. So when someone comes at me for being atheist and has these, these, I mean, especially in a TikTok comment, they have no idea who I am outside of these 15 second videos that I make, sure, Right.

Allan Mount [00:13:17] They can't pretend to know what's going on in my life. And they say these things and it's like first they don't know. So it's a. They're making a comment based on ignorance. They just don't know me.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Right.

Allan Mount [00:13:25] And those that do know me and still say things like that, of course they've been taught their entire lives in many cases to. To think this way about folks that believe differently or reject the idea of God in general.

Randy Bell [00:13:40] Right.

Allan Mount [00:13:41] So a lot of times my frustration at that point is redirected to the system and the systems of. Call it organized religion or dogma, like you, you so eloquently stated previously. I look at those systems and I say this person. And to their face, it's hard to look at someone in the face and say, you're a victim of, of this whole system.

Randy Bell [00:14:05] Right.

Allan Mount [00:14:06] That's what we're here for, is to talk about these differences. But I look at them and I say they're a product of a lifetime of conditioning. And that's why I try to make content, is to break down that conditioning for myself and for others who are starting to get into that realm as well.

Randy Bell [00:14:24] Does it ever get you down or does it.

Allan Mount [00:14:26] Sure, yeah, yeah, of course. Especially the closer someone is to you, someone that maybe you thought was a very close friend that ends up saying something pretty hurtful. I know that many of the listeners here have experienced family saying and doing things that really cut to the core.

Randy Bell [00:14:43] Yeah.

Allan Mount [00:14:44] Relationships are lost over this stuff. And that's a big.

Randy Bell [00:14:47] That's really sad. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I gotta say that organized religion we talked about yesterday, that there are toxic religions. I mean, you know, that's for sure. But there's also, I think, healthy religions where. And there's even religions as you know that even in Christianity where more universalist type religions would say, come on in. But it's sad that some organized religions have made you feel that way and that systemic problem should be lifting people up and loving people if they really buy into what Jesus is actually saying in the New Testament. So it's really unfortunate that people are out there that make you feel bad because I know you and you're a kind.

Randy Bell [00:15:39] You know, I'm not trying to stroke you like maybe I am, but you're a kind guy. And it kind of hit home on Christmas when I was up in Park City skiing and being a pig and just laying around with my family and stuffing our faces and you're out caring for refugees. I mean, that really struck me that, that on Christmas Day you were spending time with your family, you know, with, with your family and with, you know, people in tough circumstances.

Randy Bell [00:16:08] So I, I think, I think as you've explained it, a lot of these stereotypes kind of fall apart. At least they do for me. And if you're in California, you know, it wouldn't even be an issue. Is it, is it amplified, you know, being in Utah, or is it, what do you think about that aspect?

Allan Mount [00:16:27] Yeah, it absolutely is. Where, you know, many people I work with in my own home, my neighborhoods are predominantly LDs, but at the same time, it's, it's. I don't go around spouting atheist rhetoric or anything like that. We have relationships. I didn't go to my neighbors and, and talk about Book of Mormon stuff when I was a believer. Either we talked about football or we talked about. We know we didn't. I hate football. We talked about volley. I tried to play baseball or talk about baseball and things like that. So, yeah, it certainly is harder here in Utah than it would be elsewhere, just based on the sheer volume and density. But, you know, you learn to live with that. And I think I'm lucky slash privileged that in my own immediate circles, for the most part, people have just kind of accepted where I'm at and haven't really pushed hard.

Randy Bell [00:17:23] Right.

Allan Mount [00:17:24] And so it's, it's not a big friction point.

Antitheism, Anti-Religion, and Organized Religion

John Dehlin [00:17:27] I have a question for you, Allan. And then I have a question for you, Randy. So, Randy, you talked yesterday about antitheists, right? And these are all terms that, for someone just starting to question Mormonism or leaving Mormonism, these are going to be new terms for people. So atheist, agnostic and antitheist and theist. But so the way I remember you describing an antitheist is someone who is against religion, who thinks religion is bad and harmful and that the world would be better without it. And I know that I have a percentage of my listeners that are antitheist.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Now, Allan, I'm curious how you would respond to the charge of being antitheist. Well, I guess basically I'm curious how you identify as it relates to antitheism. But then, you know, if anybody were to watch your tick tocks, it, you know, they would see, you know, let's just say criticisms or analyses of the Bible and where it, it might fall short or have problems or have historical problems or even moral or ethical problems.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] You might at times call out Christianity or Christian hypocrisy, and someone might watch your TikTok and say, wow, that guy's clearly not only an atheist, but he's anti theist. So how do you identify in terms of anti theism, Allen? And then how would you respond to that sort of accusation based on someone's viewing of your tiktoks? Sure.

Allan Mount [00:19:11] Great question. So I would say first, I would say I'm more pro truth than antitheist. Antitheist. I from. I don't know how you defined it yesterday, but antitheism in my, in my view is more of a gnostic atheist where you're, you're claiming to know and we just don't. I mean, I love astronomy, for example. And there is something beautiful and very, very honest and humble about saying, I don't know what happened before the Big Bang. I don't know what caused it. I don't know. That's, that's an okay answer. So for, for someone to call me, I think watching my own TikToks, which I do for three hours every night, I just love to watch myself watching.

Allan Mount [00:20:03] I don't. But I would say that I'm probably more anti dogma and maybe some sprinkle some anti religion in there where especially the more dogmatic religion gets. And again, we're speaking some of the same language here. Yeah, I'm, I don't want any of that in my life and I've seen in my own life. I mean, I'm married to a Christian LDS woman and she is wonderful and anyone that spends any amount of time with her knows that she is amazing. And shedding dogma out of belief is such a critical part of our own, our own journey. So when it all comes down to it though, I'll circle back and end it with that same term.

Allan Mount [00:20:49] I want to be known and I want to try to deploy pro truth where if there's something that doesn't make sense in the Bible, there's nothing too sacred to be skeptical about and there's nothing too sacred to question and questioning and doubting should be encouraged. And if there's something that I'm missing and someone points something else out, I want to say, oh, I was wrong. My bad.

Allan Mount [00:21:15] I'm going way longer than I meant to. But what's the theologian guy who works for the church? Dan McClellan? Dan, is that his name?

John Dehlin [00:21:23] Yeah.

Allan Mount [00:21:25] Great example. I love, I love his channel because he just talks about. This is what the language actually says in the Bible. This is what it says, the personal belief. And the dogma is completely stripped out of it. I like him just as Much as. What's that? The Captain Dadpool. Is that his name? There's some.

Carah Burrell [00:21:44] The guy who's a really big atheist.

Allan Mount [00:21:45] Yeah, he's a huge atheist.

Carah Burrell [00:21:46] Tick Tocker went to like a seminary school.

Allan Mount [00:21:50] Right. And he's a big theologian too. Like he's got degrees just like Dan does. And I hold them both right here. And one is an act of believing LDS and the other is as anti theist as you can come. But they focus on what is true and what things are actually saying in the Bible.

Carah Burrell [00:22:05] Okay, Can I ask a good follow up to that though? This is going to be a little bit of a hard hitting question because I want to ask you more directly. So somebody who would define themselves as an antitheist would be like Christmas. Christopher Hitchens, who I think has a quote about. Actually I have it right here that he's not even an atheist. He says, I'm, I'm more of an anti theist. I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influences of the churches and the effects of religious belief is positively harmful. So separating the. That you can, you can say that's not true.

Carah Burrell [00:22:39] That's not what you think. People should be leaving, should be believing. Are you in the camp where you can say that there are. That you are against the way that churches are actually harming people and that that's. Am I making sense here?

Allan Mount [00:22:58] No, you are. Great question.

Carah Burrell [00:22:59] I don't want to be too, too rude because it's hard to know, it's hard to quantify harm. But would you, in that type of definition would you agree with Christopher Hitchens statement on that, that that the churches are a doing more harm or doing more good? Where do you stand on that?

Allan Mount [00:23:14] Yeah, I would largely agree with what he said. That what that quote could have come out of my mouth but I think that makes me more skeptical and anti religion than anti theist.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Right.

Allan Mount [00:23:28] And but to be fair, I mean it is religion who has defined what God is. And so it's that definition that I'd like to push against. Does that make any sense? I'm trying to be shorter in my response.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] This is. And Carah, it's a good compliment because this is what I was going to ask you to kind of really try and tease out for listeners that are new to this conversation because there's a difference between being anti theist or being against people having some sort of spiritual belief or even theological belief and being against anti dogma or anti religion which is against sort of the way organized religions have kind of messed everything up and tend to dogmatize, systematize, and then consequentially harm people. And you're saying, Allan, that you can be pro theist but anti religion. Did I get that right?

Allan Mount [00:24:23] I mean, we could summarize it that way. A protheist is a term I'd have to noodle on to see what I really think about that.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Or not. Antitheist. That's a lot of double, that's a double negative.

Allan Mount [00:24:34] Anti antitheist. Yeah, it's like anti nephi lehites.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Right?

Allan Mount [00:24:38] Yeah, I mean, I, I, I see, I see organizations, religions included, this the same.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] How about theist affirming?

Allan Mount [00:24:45] Theist affirming. That's good.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] That's good.

Randy Bell [00:24:50] Well, that is good because I'm LGBT affirming. But I'm not gay. But I, I affirm. Whatever I can do to help, I'm happy to do it.

Allan Mount [00:24:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Are you, are you theist affirming Allan Mount?

Allan Mount [00:25:02] Yeah, I can be theist affirming.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] And I mean, Katie's theist.

Allan Mount [00:25:06] Right. And so.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] And that means you're affirming to Katie.

Allan Mount [00:25:08] That leads me to an important point. I feel that I view organizations the same way that I view humans in this regard, that we are complex, we are not all good, we are not all evil. There are good things that come from individuals. There are good things that come from organizations, the LDS Church.

Allan Mount [00:25:30] Look, you have 1500 episodes. I don't need to get into all of that. Rewatch 1500 episodes before you listen to the following comment. Well, there's, I actually do feel like it's important when something good does come from an organization, including the LDS Church, to call that out.

Allan Mount [00:25:47] And especially in a mixed faith marriage. And oftentimes I'll go back to where I'm comfortable in a mixed faith marriage, where that's one of the tips we give to mixed faith couples, is that if, if you see something or your spouse is listening to general conference and you hear something that you actually agree with of like, oh, Elder Holland said that we should be kind to so and so, or the most important thing is to love or something.

Allan Mount [00:26:11] Yeah. You can go back to the 20 things you really don't like about what he said, or you could pick apart the reasons why he's focused. Well, he just wants us to be nice so that the focus is off of this. Yes, of course we can pick it apart all day, but my, my theist affirming side wants to lean into my wife, lean into my mother. In law, lean into my co workers. If we happen to be talking about general Conference, that actually doesn't really happen anymore. And to be able to say like, I really appreciated what Elder Holland said about being kind.

Allan Mount [00:26:38] What do you think? And I think in that way I could be theist affirming. That's fine. I also really don't like the church at the same time and the Mormon

John Dehlin [00:26:49] church as it as presently constituted.

Allan Mount [00:26:52] As presently constituted, sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] Yeah, sure.

Allan Mount [00:26:55] And most of my content is not LDS church related anymore. It's. It's exciting to deconstruction is exciting to me and, and reading stories again for the first time since I was 20 and reading Jonah and being like what? The whale? Are you serious? Why would he. I thought we had free will. Why is Jonah being swallowed by a whale? Because he won't go and preach and God feeds him to a fish. What? Just like thinking about things fresh for the, for the first time is exciting to me.

Randy Bell [00:27:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] And I just have to notice overlap if there's a Venn diagram between Randy and Allan. If we think about yesterday's interview with you, you Randy, aren't big on literal interpretations of the Bible. You're not big on a literal Adam and Eve, you're not big on a literal Flood, you're probably not big on a literal Jonah living in the belly of the whale. And in that sense you and Allan are actually quite complimentary in your positions in that regard. And I'm going to even add to that, Randy, I would say if you think about your three lows from yesterday, how you don't like abusive children, who does? Well, I guess some people do actually.

Randy Bell [00:28:10] Some people cover it up, which is.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] It is you don't like abusive children, you don't like monetizing of religion and you don't like ecclesiastical power based abuse. I think that's another area that's very complimentary to Allan because I think you and Allan share that. So I mean you and Allan actually along literalistic, theological, you know, a distaste for literalist scriptural interpretations and a distaste for, for the abuses and excesses of organized religion. I think you guys are almost identical.

Randy Bell [00:28:47] I think you're right. There's clearly things that go on within organized religion which I affiliate with at some level that are flat out embarrassing. I mean they just are. But I would just say that there's also, in at least the Christian circles I run in, there are wonderful people doing wonderful things that don't have any of my past baggage or things to worry about. But the way I really look at it is, you know, I got 24 hours in a day like we all have. I got so much time, so much energy, and if I focus on, you know, the great commandment, loving God, loving others, loving myself and even loving my enemies, trying to do that and going into prisons and trying to, you know, understand these folks stories, I don't have time to worry about was Jonah really swallowed by a whale or not?

Randy Bell [00:29:42] You know, I just don't have the time, energy or resources or theological background to get in, worry and worry about that. I just rather focus with the big stuff that hopefully I can conquer at some level with whatever time left I've got here on earth. Yeah, that's kind of how I look at it.

Allan Mount [00:30:01] Can I ask you this then? You know, there is a line somewhere when it comes to literal versus non literal. You do believe some literal things that I don't.

Randy Bell [00:30:11] Sure.

Allan Mount [00:30:12] So how do you, how do you draw that line? How do you draw the line of, you know. Because I would have just added Christ resurrecting to that list of things that is not to be meant literal. But you don't. I believe you believe that Christ resurrected.

Randy Bell [00:30:23] I do. And my basis for that is surprisingly. I think it surprises a lot of people. It's not really an emotional thing. You know, Sean McCraney talks about having a moment at the side of the road experience. I never had that experience coming out of the stepping away from the Mormon Church and still holding a lot of love and respect for folks that are still in the church.

Randy Bell [00:30:47] I'm new to this whole thing, but I looked at it. Where I kind of found my happy place was finding Harvard physics professors who were atheists who are now Christian and also other top scientists. There's a homicide detective, same thing. These are all atheists that looked at it more in evidence based issues. And I think you hit the nail on the head. The resurrection is something where I think there is compelling evidence for me, it may not be compelling evidence to you, and I respect that, but I think that there is tangible evidence. To say that there's no evidence is nonsense.

Randy Bell [00:31:28] But to say that, well, there's evidence, but it's not compelling to me that's a fair assessment. I've looked at those kind of evidence points from numerous different experts in their fields of abductive, inductive deductive reasoning. And I've landed on that's compelling enough to me. But I'm not 100 percenter.

Randy Bell [00:31:48] At breakfast the other day, I kind of asked you on a spectrum where you were. I'm kind of 51% or better. You know, the scale is kind of tipped in favor of that. But that leaves a lot of questions, a lot of room for other people's beliefs, and a lot of more learning I got to do.

Evidence for the Resurrection and Biblical Reliability

John Dehlin [00:32:05] Can I ask you, Randy? I'm curious. I want to. I want to engage Randy. So I'm curious if you want to engage Randy on this. When Randy says that he thinks he believes there's compelling evidence for resurrection. Allan, do you have thoughts and. Well, let me just lay a ground rule here. I think one ground rule for constructive conversations between, let's just say theists and non theists, is that there's no attempt to persuade.

Randy Bell [00:32:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Or to belittle. So when I asked. When I. When I asked the following question. It's not trying to get you guys to debate or argue. I just think that's not productive.

Randy Bell [00:32:48] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] I'm just not a fan of debates or belittling people. But I do think it's. It's can be useful to have two people kind of explain what they think or why they believe or how they review evidence, as long as it's not, again, contentious or with an attempt to convert. So, Allan, when you hear Randy say that you think that he thinks that the evidence for a resurrection of Jesus, there. There is evidence. What's your reaction to that?

Allan Mount [00:33:20] Yeah, I mean, knowing that there are viewers here and listeners on the audio feed, it's super important to go through this thought process. So if I can go through that real quick, I think that would be great. So when. When you say that, obviously you're saying it knowing that I don't accept that.

Randy Bell [00:33:38] Sure.

Allan Mount [00:33:39] I know that. You know that I don't accept it. But I also value our relationship and I want to have a fruitful conversation. So one response could be. And this may be a pretty common response, but one response could be, I would be shocked. Randy, if you could provide. You said tangible, credible evidence of the resurrection. That's absolutely insane. I could respond that way and then I could say, this is absolutely insane. What do you got? I mean, I'm building a wall between us before I even give you a chance to respond.

Randy Bell [00:34:18] Sure.

Allan Mount [00:34:19] I'm also going against my premise of what I truly try to embody of. I want to be curious and I want to learn. I think of Anthony Magnabasco and street epistemology here. You have to go into these conversations truly willing to be wrong and to be curious. And so I. What I would do is I, I would try to Recognize. And I'm looking at, at the camera now. Right. I would try to recognize my own biases and my own emotional reactions. Take a second to process. Don't be afraid of silence to, to restructure your thoughts and instead of coming at them and trying to win, framing the question in not a disingenuous way or a way to, to gotcha or anything, but respond back with, with.

Allan Mount [00:35:04] I noticed you mentioned the word tangible. And, and you actually stripped emotion. And this is actually how I feel. And this is not an act. You stripped emotion away from the resurrection, which so many Christians lean on, how they feel when they think about Christ and when they sing about Christ. And you're saying, no, it's not that. It's actually intellectual, it's tangible, it's. It's credible.

Allan Mount [00:35:28] All of those ways of understanding the world are things that I'm highly interested in. Help me, can't. Help me understand. Like, I know that we're just talking here in a conversation and you've done thousands of hours of research, but help me. Like, where did you find this tangible evidence? That would be part one of my question. Like, what is that? That tangible evidence of the Resurrection. Yeah, of the resident of the resurrection. Like, what is that tangible evidence? So that. Can you see how that really. You're asking the same thing, but one way. The first way is really going to put a wedge between the two people talking.

Randy Bell [00:36:02] Sure.

Allan Mount [00:36:03] And the other way is inviting. Hey, educate me. I'm open here. You're safe with me.

Randy Bell [00:36:09] Yeah, well, I've always felt safe with you. And it goes two ways, because if there's evidence, you know, I'm more in these kind of discussions. Well, let me back up yesterday, the little framework I came up. I think we've talked about it, but I call it abc. A is atheist, agnostic or ambivalent. I know people that just don't care.

Randy Bell [00:36:29] And that's kind of an A position. B is believer or deist. I believe there's a God, but forget the theology. A to B and then B to C. C is Christianity. And so I think in these conversations it's more fruitful to go A to B because C is. There's too much distance. You got to go through New York from LA in order to get to London, you know, so we go A to B and is there a God or is there not? And I think when we switch the framework to the fallibility issues of the Bible and go to just A to B, we're talking of things about ex nihilo arguments.

Randy Bell [00:37:12] And abiogenesis, the formation of life. In other words, we're sitting here talking, was this all a result of an accident or is this the result of an intelligent design? And that's a loaded term right there. But that kind of creates a more fruitful productive framework, I think, in just going A to B rather than A to C. So in these kind of discussions, when we talk about evidence, I really like the science.

Randy Bell [00:37:42] I really, you know, I'm a scientist. I have training in epistemologies and in scientific method and all that. But, you know, arguably sociology is a soft science. But I've been fascinated with the hard sciences of physics, physics, quantum mechanics and that. That's where I find a lot of the more compelling evidence of a creator of an intelligent design, something behind that. So I don't know if you agree with that or not.

Allan Mount [00:38:08] My response would be in trying to like, focus in on the crux of what you're saying is I would like to get to a point where instead of talking about is. Is that understanding of quantum mechanics and physics and all that, is there. Is there a portion of that that is that it points to God or what portion of that is. We don't understand it, so it must be God. Right. Because there's a. There's an important difference there of if we don't understand something. To me, it's. It's still a big leap to say, therefore it must be God, as opposed to the better. I understand it. I actually see God in this physics principle. Like there. There's God right there.

Randy Bell [00:38:52] Right.

Allan Mount [00:38:53] And there are things that I can't, I can't explain. The, the part light particle experiment. I forgot the name of that particle.

Randy Bell [00:38:59] We got it. Light particle.

Allan Mount [00:39:00] Yeah, the light particle experiment. When, when light behaves differently when you observe it, it's like it knows.

Randy Bell [00:39:07] Right, right.

Allan Mount [00:39:07] Many I've heard that as a Christian argument of like, there's God right there. And I just go, no, we just don't understand why. At least I don't understand why. So condensing that into a sentence for you is how much of that tangible evidence, intellectual evidence is this points to God versus I don't understand it, therefore it must be God.

Randy Bell [00:39:35] Yeah. And I think you've said all of that. Beautiful. And I agree with your questions. Those are solid, you know, questions.

Allan Mount [00:39:43] I'd love you. I would reach and hold your hand

Randy Bell [00:39:44] if John had a part. Yeah. So I guess the tangible evidence does come from a lot of that. And then you get into the God of the gaps. But, you know, and Yesterday we talked about how in the legal framework we have to go with the evidence we have in hand, we can't speculate what's going to happen in the future. I got another question before we kind of get into that. How do you feel about, you know, the whole Dawkins and Dennett and Harrison Hitchens group of philosophies? Do you relate to that or do you kind of.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] But did, did we just change subjects or. I mean.

Randy Bell [00:40:26] Well, we can put that off.

Allan Mount [00:40:27] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Well, no, I mean, we were. And it's okay. I want you to feel like you can help be a part of orchestrating what we go to.

Randy Bell [00:40:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] I just want to make sure we don't jump too quickly to something.

Randy Bell [00:40:38] Fair enough.

Carah Burrell [00:40:38] So we were on evidence for the resurrection and kind of. Okay, let's stick with how you guys untangle evidence and.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Yeah, so I'll, we'll come back to that. Okay, so the. So let's see. As I'm trying to track this, you said, Randy, that you find compelling evidence for the resurrection. Yeah, I do. Allan said, I think that it's constructive to be respectful and to ask questions about how a believer might analyze and look at the evidence and that he's genuine, genuinely curious. Yeah, but that, and then you, you refer, you kind of made reference to this because whether it's some, some physics principle that a Christian will sort of seize onto and say, look, something that we can't understand is happening. God. And then you quickly said, God of the gaps, which our new listeners are not even going to understand what that term means.

Randy Bell [00:41:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] But my understanding of the term is that, that whenever, whenever it's. And this is, I don't mean to say this in a insulting way, but if we understand confirmation bias, it's literally ignoring evidence that, that doesn't confirm the position that we feel most comfortable with.

Randy Bell [00:41:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] And arranging or cherry picking whatever evidence does conform with whatever position we feel good about. And we all do it, Secular people do it, believers do it. So that's not to say this is anything that believers have a monopoly on. Yeah, but, but you know what I heard Allan sort of ask is, is the, is, is it, you know, how do you, Randy, get to hearing about this electric physics principle and saying, see God, that's, that's evidence for God for me. How do you, what is it that understanding a physics principle, what makes that point to God other than the fact that all sorts of science stuff we don't fully understand? And it's incredible and it's powerful. Why does it, why for you, does it ever have to point to a God versus just like cool science, cool nature that we don't yet fully understand?

Randy Bell [00:42:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] What, What. What allows you to take that extra leap to a designer or supreme being? Yeah.

Randy Bell [00:43:06] To the. To the resurrection. Is it.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] Or any of it.

Randy Bell [00:43:08] Yeah, the way I think of it, and, and that's why I'm here, is to learn from you guys is. Is that it's like constructing a house. You start with a foundation, and then you build the framing, and then you go to the roof, and the Resurrection's like the crowning jewel on top of the house in terms of Christian principle. So I asked that question about Daken and Dennis to kind of see in that ABC kind of progression how you felt about the B. You know, just, is there God or is there not as far as. And trying to gauge that from belief in that. So I'm not, you know, I'm happy to get to the C Christianity, but I want to just understand more about where you kind of land on the B.

Is There a God? Deductive Reasoning and First Causes

Randy Bell [00:43:50] Is there a God or is there not? And at least in my mind, those questions come back to a lot of science and a lot of deductive reasoning type issues. Has nothing to do with the New Testament, has nothing to do with Hinduism or anything else. So I'm just kind of trying to lay out the spectrum of A to B to C to kind of see where you kind of land on all that. Sure.

Allan Mount [00:44:10] Well, then that's fine. We can adjust from Christ to just God exists in general.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Yeah.

Allan Mount [00:44:17] So what would be that intellectual, tangible, credible evidence that you feel points to there being a God?

Randy Bell [00:44:24] Yeah, well, I mean, like, I'll kind of build some of that foundation of that house, if you will, and just trying to understand where you're coming from. And by the way, and I've told you this before privately, if I ever come across trying to proselytize or convert, slap me, because I'm just telling my story and I have questions that help me, and I learn a lot from you. So I'm not. I don't. I don't. I have a lot of bias. I'm sure I do.

Allan Mount [00:44:51] We've had plenty of these conversations. So that. Yeah. Disclaimer is. Is gas.

The Big Bang, Ex Nihilo, and Cosmological Arguments

Randy Bell [00:44:56] Okay, so like, ex nihilo. Like, what is that? Ex nihilo is nothing to something. We're obviously got something here.

Allan Mount [00:45:03] Okay.

Randy Bell [00:45:04] You know, we're sitting there talking, and obviously there's a universe and there's molecules and all this stuff going on. Ex nihilo, nothing to something. The big Bang theory actually came from a Catholic priest who also had a PhD from MIT in physics. So he got the idea for the Big Bang from Genesis, not to get into the seed Christianity, but that's, no pun intended, the genesis of the whole Big Bang theory. So I'm just wondering what goes on your mind? Is it just a flat out, I don't know how we got from nothing to something or where. What are your thoughts on that?

Allan Mount [00:45:36] That would be an initial response. But I think one thing that I would, that I tend to lean towards is it's a little bit frustrating. The nothing to something is a, is a little bit of a strawman. I feel that.

Allan Mount [00:45:51] Why a lot of the arguments and data shows that we're not arguing that. Yeah, and I shouldn't say we because I'm not representing any team here, but team atheist that that many. And look again, bachelor's degree in economics, which I don't use, but it's from ucla. So I'm not, I'm not an educator here. I just like to think about things. Is that the argument is that is not that something came from nothing. And even if it were, you know, God is often given a pass on where did God come from Then if, if the universe, God is able to just be able to everlasting and always having existed, why can't that be the same of the universe?

Allan Mount [00:46:35] If we're going to give God that, that pass, why can't the universe get the same pass? I could say the universe has always been here, always been here. And I have, I mean, thousands of comments on TikTok saying no, that that goes against all of the laws of physics. And my response is always, well, that's your argument for God is that God has always been here. God didn't come from nothing. So why can't the universe not come from nothing?

Randy Bell [00:47:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] And it doesn't have to be the universe in its current form.

Allan Mount [00:47:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Just that matter, matter in some shape or form has always existed. Their existence exists and has always existed. Basically.

Randy Bell [00:47:13] Well, the science is that's called the static universe model or something worse to that effect. The static model that the universe always existed. That's the position Einstein took. Einstein was very critical of Lemontre who came up with the Big Bang theory. I think where science has landed today is with the Big Bang theory. And there was an article that just came out in Scientific American where the question was, okay, science has done a really great job of explaining the Big Bang theory, but not what preceded it.

Allan Mount [00:47:44] Right.

Randy Bell [00:47:45] And you're right, I would attribute that to God.

Allan Mount [00:47:48] Why?

Randy Bell [00:47:50] Because I don't see any other explanation, viable explanation.

Allan Mount [00:47:54] That's, that's a leap I cannot make anymore.

Randy Bell [00:47:57] That's okay.

Allan Mount [00:47:58] And I know that you having been previous previously LDS, you can absolutely relate to this where I spent 35 years in my case, 35 years of my life accepting something as true on, on grounds of not great evidence. And so I am probably to a fault, very hesitant to make that mistake again.

Randy Bell [00:48:20] Right.

Allan Mount [00:48:20] To make that leap again where it's. I don't understand this, but I'm going to believe it anyway. I can't do that anymore.

Randy Bell [00:48:32] And just for definitional, you know, I don't believe, and I say this with zero disrespect to our LDS friends and family, but I don't believe in a God who's a resurrected man living on a planet near Kolob with lots of wives and where we're produces lots of races. You know, I don't mean that disrespectfully, but the God that I have been studying in Christianity is more of a. And I know Mormonism is critical of this idea of God, but it actually resonates and reconciles nicely with the. Science is a intelligent, creative force that preceded the Big Bang. And this article I read in Scientific American kind of acknowledges that theologists have an explanation where science doesn't. That's not a rip on science. I'm just reading from Scientific American when I say that. So I don't know, I just wanted to throw that out there to kind

Allan Mount [00:49:27] of see where you can. Yeah, I can have all kinds of explanations for everything that doesn't have an explanation, that doesn't make the explanations true. I think that goes back to the previous point made where it's okay to not understand something. It's okay to say we're working on it, right? We don't understand what came before the Big Bang. But I don't have anything. Again, we may be going in circles a little bit. I don't have anything compelling to me that says this does explain what was happening previously. The Big Bang. It's all guesses on all sides at this point.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] I mean, at this, at this particular, for this particular conversation, this is where I feel like there's a distinction without a difference. What I mean is you, Allan, would say there was something before the Big Bang. I don't know what to call it. I don't know what it is. But, but clearly there was matter and there's some power or force. You probably call that science or nature.

Allan Mount [00:50:34] Well, science is Attempting to understand what it was.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] So nature you may call it.

Allan Mount [00:50:40] I really don't like Stan, and this is not what you're doing. And sorry to interrupt your train of thought, but I really don't like setting up science as a pillar against religion.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Right.

Allan Mount [00:50:49] Where science is more of just a method of trying to figure out what we're observing.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] So you. Well, what do you call it, Allan? Nature.

Allan Mount [00:50:57] Sure, I've lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Okay, so, like, there's. There's something that makes electrons. You know, the protons and neutrons bind together, and there's something that makes these little electrons spin around, and it's kind of everywhere that's happening. What do you call that? Power or force or energy? What do you call that, Allan?

Allan Mount [00:51:19] Yeah. For the purposes of this conversation, we can call nature.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] Okay, so you, Allan, believe in nature and that nature's been around forever and

Allan Mount [00:51:28] that we have some as we know it. It's been around for 13.8 billion years.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] Yeah, but. But I mean, we have no idea. That's a totally, like.

Allan Mount [00:51:36] It's a. Go ahead, finish your sentence.

Carah Burrell [00:51:38] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] Well, whatever. Whatever current. You know, so let's just say that. That there's some universe and we know that things are moving away from other things and that it probably started at some central nuclear point or whatever, but we have no idea whether whatever that existence is exists in totally different dynamics or dimensions elsewhere. All we know is what's semi, partially observable to us. Correct.

Allan Mount [00:52:10] Fair.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Yeah.

Allan Mount [00:52:12] We're speaking the same language.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Yeah. And so you're. I'm just saying whatever it is that makes protons and neutrons bond and electrons spin around it and the earth revolve around the sun, that's got a name. And you're calling that nature, right?

Allan Mount [00:52:27] Sure, let's call it nature for this conversation.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] So how is that really any meaningfully different than Randy just slapping the name God on it? And I mean, other than all the baggage that God talk carries, which is problematic. Yeah, you're calling it God, Randy. And. And you're calling it nature, Allan, but you're both talking about things you really don't know anything about, and you're just using different words to describe it. And Randy, just so happens that yours pulls a bunch of baggage. And I think, Randy, you would say maybe. Maybe a scientific worldview also pulls baggage, which I don't think Allan would disagree with. But I'm just trying to say, what is the meaningful difference between your two positions as it relates to the origins of existence, other than you're using a slightly different name, Randy.

Randy Bell [00:53:20] Well, I think you've both brought up brilliant points, and I would agree 1000%. I don't know. I don't know if anybody knows. I certainly don't know the distinctions. And you bring up a great point, John. We're talking about semantics. And the word God does bring a

John Dehlin [00:53:39] lot of baggage in this point. Yeah, yeah.

Randy Bell [00:53:42] And I fully get that. I have friends who won't say the word God because it just triggers them. And I totally get that. So that's why I say an intelligent creative force maybe that carries less baggage. I don't know. I'm just reciting what I read right out of Scientific American, that science goes so far and then stops. Whereas in this article it says theology has explanations. I'm not saying that they're perfect explanations or knowing explanations, but a belief system that gives some explanation to what created the Big Bang or preceded the Big Bang.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Yeah, but, but like I think to, to Allen's point, that's fiction. It's marvel. It's just like you're, you created a story and a bunch of people are agreeing on a story. But, but that story has no more basis of reality than Spider Man.

Randy Bell [00:54:31] Well, I don't know that I buy the Spider man analogy because where there's evidence of creation, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there's a creator. So, you know, you know, the Spider man thing, I think that's kind of veering off course of a more serious conversation.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] No, no, no, no, no, no. I, I'm not meaning disrespect, but that's like saying the existence of a Spider man movie means that there's probably a Spider Man. Like, just because there's a story about someone's thoughts around a being doesn't mean that being doesn't give any reason to believe that there actually is a being. It's literally just story.

Randy Bell [00:55:13] I see a little differently. I mean, we can agree to disagree, but I think that the question is, well, because Spider man doesn't really. That doesn't resonate with me. Whereas the real issue we're talking about is the science has come to the point of the Big Bang. And again, I'm going to come back to the Scientific American article which points out that they're at a roadblock of explaining how the Big Bang. What preceded the Big Bang or what caused the Big Bang.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] But so are you. You just. Your roadblock. You, you put the name God on it. So you're. I don't think Christians have one upped, you know, secular people by saying they have some meaningful explanation.

Carah Burrell [00:55:56] It's a special pleading argument that goes like forever and ever and that we know we don't have. Like, we're all trying to decide this arbitrary point of origin whether you call it the Big Bang. And like Donna saying you're, you're slapping that, the name of God on it and you're being, saying that that's a sufficient answer for you, but you're not sufficient with like the atheist answer, which is what you just mentioned in the Scientific American magazine. It's like an atheist, the sufficient answer for now is that big Bang. And before that we don't know. But that's not, that doesn't fulfill you intellectually or spiritually. And so it's like a special pleading argument that you need something else where you get to change the rules so that you can call it God and Christianity. Does that make sense?

Randy Bell [00:56:37] Yeah, I think it largely did make sense. And I get your point. I think it's a little more simple than that, at least in my mind, in my simple mind. And that is that there was at least if you accept science. And I think that science and religion are actually very compatible. I don't think it's science or religion. I think it's science and religion will get us to the more best answers. I'm simply pointing out, and nothing more than that, that saying, hey, according to science and according to Scientific American, there was the Big bang. And preceding that, science has zero explanation. We don't know.

Randy Bell [00:57:12] And I agree, and I don't know either. I'm not saying I know. I'm just saying that theology renders some explanations that science says they don't have. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more, nothing less. And I totally get if people don't buy that or get that, but that resonates with me, me.

Carah Burrell [00:57:31] But I just want to repeat back so I understand what you're saying. Theology provides an answer, whereas this, the sciences have a roadblock.

Randy Bell [00:57:40] No, no, I didn't say roadblock. I don't think the article did. It just said science has no answer, but thought theology provides some kind of answer. I'll send you the article and you can read it yourselves.

Carah Burrell [00:57:50] Yeah, let's put it in the show notes.

Randy Bell [00:57:51] Yeah, let's, let's do that. I'll send it to you.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] But even that is like a appeal to authority. Like I don't care what necessarily what Scientific America said or some smart Christian scientists per se. I think just logic, logic for Me is sufficient to say that. That if religion creates a story about what happened before anything science can actually explain, we're not any farther in really understanding reality. It's literally just a story someone advanced and that a bunch of people said, I feel good about that story. But. But it doesn't increase our understanding even a millimeter.

Carah Burrell [00:58:30] If it's not testable, if it's not following the scientific method, it's literally a story.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Well, I'm curious why you don't just agree like, I'm not. I think it's fine to have a story. I think it's. I think it provides meaning, it provides purpose. It makes us feel good. It. It helps us feel like we understand things. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm curious why you aren't just willing to go, yeah, it's. It's just a story.

Randy Bell [00:58:53] Well, you're going from A to B to C. And I agree.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] I'm talking about A to B.

Randy Bell [00:58:58] Well, what's. I guess when you say story, I'm not clear what.

Allan Mount [00:59:00] Sticking on creation of the universe, for example, sticking on that. On that story like this. This article you mentioned says, we're stuck. We don't know what happened before this. When you have a story that explains that. So what leads you to believe that story? Like, why here's. Instead of saying, can you suck on that lollipop for a second? This is. This is the. The big concern for me with this is, is if we accept a story on bad evidence. And look, if you've got the good evidence, you've got good evidence. But if we do accept a story on bad evidence, what we miss out on is trying to figure out the good story or the actual what's going on.

Allan Mount [00:59:47] So as an example, what if there is a cure for cancer? And this is. This is a massive strawman, and I'm admitting it, but what if there is a cure for cancer, but the majority of humans or a whole lot of people think that cancer is a. Is a curse from God. If you get cancer, it was your time, and there's no point of trying to. To avoid it.

Carah Burrell [01:00:11] Mm.

Allan Mount [01:00:13] If we accept that. That view, that shrug your shoulders, you're just going to die of cancer. There's. There's going to be so many people that could have benefited from. From trying to figure out a cure. So I'm hopefully, I'm making myself here

Carah Burrell [01:00:29] like that's an actual argument because of.

Allan Mount [01:00:32] Of truth. Right. Where. What if NASA just accepted the story of. Well, we know what caused the big bang. It was God, we wouldn't have James Webb on its way to Lagrange. Point two, is that what it's called, where it's on its way to, to like give us these incredible images of the beginnings of the universe. We, we would not get that, that knowledge if everyone just kind of accepted, well, we don't need to figure out the origin of the universe. We already know it, it's God.

Carah Burrell [01:01:06] And that is an actual. That doesn't even have to be hypothetical. There's stem cell research that's prohibited by, you know, a lot of Christian fundamentalists who don't want science to move forward because they believe in like the origin of a sperm and egg that's creating a new life. And so they're not only are there real scientific things that are holding scientific research from being moving forward, but you can go down to arguments of everything that Americans vote on, from like abortion to going to war to just about everything has an influence for the God that people worship and what they think that he wants us to do and vote and act. So there's huge ramifications of whether or not somebody, you know, wants to pursue the truth and knowledge or they are okay with a story. That's kind of what I'm getting from it.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Allan.

Allan Mount [01:01:51] Absolutely. Think. Carah, thank you for saying it better than I could in fewer words. Before you respond, want to make it super duper clear. Super duper. That's very important. That's like a triple dog dare. Super duper clear. That the way that Carah and I just explained that is likely not how you view things. You are a, you are a searcher of truth and a scientific mind at heart. And so I don't think you're advocating that we stop trying to understand scientifically the origins of the universe either. And many of the listeners and viewers here, I could see them squirming. I can't literally, but I can metaphorically imagine viewers and listeners squirming in their seats saying like, oh no, I believe and.

Allan Mount [01:02:32] But I'm an advocate for scientific research as well. So this is not again, systemic. It's not an individual problem. But that's, that's the concern that I have is that leaning on, on we don't know, must be God holds us back from advancing as a human and human species, including climate crisis and all that. Your response?

Randy Bell [01:02:57] There's a lot there. The. Yeah, I think, I think the most. First of all, I love this conversation. I don't know if you guys do. Yeah, it really is fun. And the, you know, but you Know, I think it's most productive when we go A to B and really just shelve all the C stuff.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] That's what I'm trying to do.

Allan Mount [01:03:15] Yeah. Yeah. We're hanging on the universe.

Randy Bell [01:03:18] Okay, good. That's great. We're not talking about C. Reaffirming that

John Dehlin [01:03:21] none of us are talking about C. Okay, got it.

Randy Bell [01:03:22] So. So going back to this issue, maybe I'm not being clear about it, maybe we should revisit it after we've all read the article. And on your point of appeal to authority, John, you're right, it is appeal to authority. But that's, I think, one of the most misunderstood logical fallacies, because in the courtroom, you have. The judge just doesn't let anybody wander in. And Penn and Teller, who went to Barnum and Bailey clown school, testify, you have to qualify as an expert and you have to appeal to authority. Because before a lawsuit, there's the points in authorities. Authority is a big deal in terms of what's evidence in the courtroom.

Appeal to Authority, Science, and Religious Worldviews

Randy Bell [01:03:59] So I get your point on appeal to authority, but I'm not a scientist. I don't write for Scientific American. I'm not a physics professor or any of that. I have to look at others that are. I've read dozens of atheists who are physics professors. I've read dozens that are deists, and I've read dozens that are theists and Christian.

Randy Bell [01:04:21] Trying to get it all, you know, trying to sort out through everything. All I'm saying, and maybe I'm not articulating it very well, is that when it comes to the ex nihilo arguments and debates and discussions, that according to Anthony Bonabasco, who is just here and said there either there is a God or there is not. And he's right, that's kind of a binary thing. There is or there isn't. On the ex nihilo issue, and no disrespect to my atheist friend or anyone else, science doesn't have an explanation. And whether it may be a flawed explanation or the semantics may be wrong, but theology does offer an explanation. I'm not saying I know anything. I don't know much. But it does offer an explanation. That's all I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] Right. But I'm. And, and this is. I also love this conversation, and I don't want you to feel like we're ganging up on you. I was actually not trying to pile on. I was trying to identify what I detected as a meaningful area of consensus.

Randy Bell [01:05:26] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] And that's why I said a distinction without A difference? Yeah, because. Yeah, of course I, I got a PhD. You got a PhD. Yeah. I think expertise matters, but we're talking about an area of expertise that no one, it's. No one can master. It's about understanding what happened before all things that we can perceive existed.

Randy Bell [01:05:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] And there is no person who's an authority on that. Right. So I don't care who's writing in scientific America. We're talking about something that's completely unknowable, or at least right now unknowable. Or that if somebody has an expertise in it.

Randy Bell [01:06:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] It's so infinitesimal that it's close to meaningless. And so what I was trying to say is you brought up Ex Nilo, which Allan said, that's a straw man. That nobody, Nobody thinks that things came out of nothing. No, no atheist, no secular scientist is going to make a point who's credible that like, things just magically appeared from nothing.

Carah Burrell [01:06:24] So that's the Christian argument. That's usually the. That's usually the theist argument, just to be clear. And so, like, that's never an argument that I've heard an atheist say that nothing and then something happened. It's usually God had nothing and then he made something because he's God and he gets to make the rules. That's usually how it goes.

John Dehlin [01:06:40] So you brought up Ex Nilo. Randy said, that's a straw man. It doesn't exist. None of us here, or. Sorry, Allan, none of us here are making that point. I. And so what. What point are we making? I think a point that we can all agree upon is that none of us have any idea what existed before the universe, I think before the Big Bang.

Randy Bell [01:07:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] So we agree on that point. Okay. All right. And then Allan said, I'm okay with not knowing. And then you seemed to suggest that religion or theology or Christianity or whatever. Let's just say. Let's just say theism has a slight edge over atheists or the scientific community because you have a story. And I just said.

Allan Mount [01:07:26] I think you said explanation or an explanation.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] And I. And I was slightly disappointed by that because I didn't make the spider man point to mock you. I just made the spider man point to say something which I think is actually obvious, which is. It's just a story. It's not really evidence. It's just a story. Oh, God. And that literally is like definitionally God of the gaps. You're basically just saying, we don't know, but we have a story. We call it God. What I would hope is that you would say, but it's just a story. We really don't know you're even agnostic, but somehow you seem to suggest that somehow theists are actually contributing something meaningful to our perceptions of reality by making the claim that they have at least some explanation. And I was wishing that you would just say, it's just a story. It's not really adding anything meaningful to our understanding of reality.

Randy Bell [01:08:25] Yeah, well, I mean, you said I don't know and I don't know. This is all beliefs, and we're speculating and we're putting forth hypotheses on how things might, you know, work out or not work out to answer these big questions. These are big questions. And as I said yesterday, we're just getting little glimpses into things. We will not go through life and know any of this. We will get glimpses. I think we all agree there. The point is that I think we need to kind of study Lemtri's life and at least give a little bit of credit to the fact that the whole Big Bang theory, which science now accepts, came from a theology, but most

John Dehlin [01:09:10] scientists came from a religious worldview. Right, but that doesn't give credit to the religious worldview. That's just.

Carah Burrell [01:09:17] That's like saying that, like, half of, like, you can find instances in the Bible that uphold slavery and that also condemn slavery, and then saying that, like, it was Christians who ended slavery. Well, it's like you can find anything because there's so many Christians, there's so many people who believe.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] You could say all ex Mormons. All ex Mormons come from Mormonism. Therefore Mormonism gets credit for ex Mormons.

Carah Burrell [01:09:37] There's.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] I mean, it's.

Carah Burrell [01:09:38] It's the pool of humanity that we're kind of drawing.

Allan Mount [01:09:41] The annoying bridge builder would say, I'm super grateful that a believer in God and a believer in Christ was able to use their secular or scientific knowledge to discover something that has been very meaningful in our understanding of the world. Well, and I can end the sentence there. I could end the sentence there. And I have all of the skeptical things to think and all the retorts that just because he believed and he discovered this doesn't mean anything about God. I think those same things as well. But I do think it's important to say, like, I'm grateful for.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] For it, sure.

Allan Mount [01:10:12] Like, good for him.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] And I'm grateful that Mormonism created me. And I think Mormonism creates a bunch of amazing ex Mormons. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than it's Just kind of the populations we're drawing from. It doesn't. It seems like what you're arguing is because this scientist comes from a Christian background and he developed the Big bang, that now secular scientists all agree with that somehow that scores a point for religion in some way.

Carah Burrell [01:10:42] If the Big bang is true, regardless, it doesn't really matter who discovered the truth. It's a true thing regardless of a Hindu person or a Muslim. Regret.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] It's not a point for the validity of a relationship.

Carah Burrell [01:10:53] It could be somebody who's a conspiracy theorist who's like a. Believes in alien object abductions and that makes. That's how they make their living. If they follow like a scientific method, that's what we all want to draw from is what is the method that they're coming to arrive at the truth.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] It's correlation, not causation.

Carah Burrell [01:11:08] Sure.

Randy Bell [01:11:10] Well, okay.

Carah Burrell [01:11:11] It's a lot. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] No, really. Are you.

Randy Bell [01:11:14] What is it All I'm saying. And we may just have to agree to disagree. I'm just saying, forget my opinion. Lamentri himself credited his discovery, not my discovery, his discovery of the Big Bang, by his reflections on Genesis. And. And that's all I'm saying is give acknowledgement credits his theology for coming up with that science. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't know why that's a point of a sticking point, but I'm just saying that's Lamentri's point of view. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] So what does that have to do with our conversation?

Randy Bell [01:11:51] Well, I think it has a lot to do with our conversation because it kind of builds on my premise, my belief that science and religion is in cooperation gets a better answers than just science alone or religion alone. That's all I'm saying.

Meaning, Purpose, and the Universe

Allan Mount [01:12:06] Can I attempt to go to a different topic?

Randy Bell [01:12:09] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:11] Well, let me. Let me ask. Let me try one last time to ask this question. What's the meaningful difference between Allen's position and your position? Allan's position being he doesn't know what happened before the Big Bang, but he calls it nature. You don't know what happened before the Big Bang. You call it God. I'm saying there's no meaningful difference between your positions. And you didn't just go, yep, there's really no difference. We are. We are debating about something not really worth debating because we're actually identical. We just use different words. Why didn't you just agree to that? Because I think that's a great area of consensus.

Randy Bell [01:12:47] I think that you're Right. There's a large area of consensus, I think, given all that's transpired. Let me just give you these articles and maybe it will make my point better than I've made it and maybe

John Dehlin [01:12:59] not try and answer the question.

Randy Bell [01:13:01] Well, the answer is I largely agree with you and I'm repeating myself and I really don't want to burn up time repeating myself. I'm just saying that. And I'm referencing to this article, which is an appeal to authority and all these things we already talked about. But the article makes the point that science has no explanation for what preceded the Big Bang and theology does. That's the only point.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] And why is that important to you? Why is that? What does that contribute to this conversation or to humanity?

Randy Bell [01:13:37] Because it tells me that theology has a place at the adult table in this conversation rather than just being ignorantly dismissed. That's all I'm saying.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] I don't think you should be ignorantly dismissed. It's a way to feel good about the universe. It's a way to kind of fill in the gaps with, with a story that makes us feel good or that gives us meaning and purpose. So you're doing a straw man if you say that we think it's childlike or irrelevant to your happiness or other people's well being.

Randy Bell [01:14:07] Well, I don't mean to. I don't mean to put words in anybody's mouth. I'm just saying that. I'm just parroting what this article says and saying I agree with it. I don't know why that's controversial, but. And I don't mean to put words in your mouth and create a straw man. That's not my agenda. I'm just simply pointing out when it comes to this particular issue, the Big bang. Having looked at all the literature, I don't want to say some of the literature. Some of these explanations help me, as one who has a bias towards theism, to say, okay, I'm on a credible path as opposed to just wandering off on something that's meaningless.

Carah Burrell [01:14:49] So when you said earlier that you believe that science with a theology and a religion does more not just for you, but for, like, the human race, for humanity, is that in our, like, articulate representation of what you said, that they do better together?

Randy Bell [01:15:05] I didn't say it. Einstein said it.

Carah Burrell [01:15:06] Okay. And I believe that. Yeah, okay. So when I hear something like that, I recognize that I'm like a very evolved ape who has a high level of consciousness, you could say. And I can just recognize that I am looking for meaning in possibly a meaningless world. Sorry to get all like, nihilistic here, but like I can recognize where I came from and that I'm looking for answers. And I can just tell myself that I don't need to tell myself a fiction story because I am just an ape out in the world looking for a bigger meaning to something that is probably meaningless. And I'm okay with that answer, but it sounds like what you're saying, and I want to ask this as a direct question.

Randy Bell [01:15:47] Sure.

Carah Burrell [01:15:47] That you believe in evolution. Right. And so you can say that we are an evolved species that at some point had a consciousness and a free will maybe put into our brain and that from that point forward there is a God who is looking over us, who will at some point judge us and send us to an afterlife. Where do you get your reason and meaning and nest? And what necessitates you to say that there's a God who wants us to have this consciousness where I would just say there isn't a God that wants us to have this consciousness. There's. You're looking for meaning where there is no meaning?

Randy Bell [01:16:23] Well, I don't know. There's no meaning. I think that life has a lot of meaning. And these are the big questions that I'm, you know, doing my best to kind of sort out. The, you know, Quentin Smith, who's a PhD out of, I think he went to University of Boston, he said, you know, the atheist point of view is we've created from nothing, buy nothing for nothing. That doesn't resonate with me. If it resonates with you, I totally respect that. But for me, that just doesn't vibe.

Randy Bell [01:16:53] But even so, I try and look at the evidence. I try and read, you know, a broad set of literature and come up with something that works best for me. And you know, this nexohilo, maybe we're just at a dead end. Maybe we can revisit it after we've all had the benefit of reading what I'm referring to. But I think that there is meaning. I think that there's too much as we go from ex nihilo to the fine tuning arguments to abiogenesis, which I'd love to kind of work through these things and get everybody's points of view. I think that things kind of point that there is dualism, there is a body and a spirit that makes a lot of sense in reconciling with other things and philosophical issues.

Randy Bell [01:17:35] So that's just kind of the landscape as I see it. I'm just sharing that to Whatever benefit that might have in kind of facilitating a good conversation.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:17:48] Yeah. Okay. That answers that. I just wanted to see what. Why that makes sense to you, because that's a. That stops me dead in my tracks, but. Okay, that's what this is for, is a. Yeah. Super chat of why we believe what we believe.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] Yeah. So, Allan, you wanted to go in another direction.

Allan Mount [01:18:03] Yeah. And it's tied to this. I mean, so the bridge to this conversation, or change of topic would be. What's his name? Le Germain.

Randy Bell [01:18:12] Lamentri.

Allan Mount [01:18:13] Lament. I'm going.

Randy Bell [01:18:14] He's from Belgium.

Allan Mount [01:18:15] Ledger, Maine. That sounds cooler. So Ledger, Maine. He, he, he. He leaned upon the Genesis account to come up with the big bang, right?

Randy Bell [01:18:24] Yeah.

Allan Mount [01:18:26] Took someone 4,000 years after that account was written, Masomanos, to figure out that that's what Genesis was meaning. When I look at that account, like millions of others have, it took one guy, millions of billions of people later to figure out, oh, that's what God actually meant when we wrote this down. So my question is shifting to more of the nature of God, of what does God want? Because it doesn't seem. Even using Flame's example, LebrFrame, I think you're misremembering your citation.

Randy Bell [01:19:03] I think I am

Allan Mount [01:19:06] using Reframer's example there. In the Bible, it doesn't seem like God really cares that we actually know if he did. If they did, wouldn't they have had the dictators or the scribes writing the Bible just say, hey, in the beginning, there was an infinitesimal pinpoint of mass that I, in all my glory, expanded to create all these galaxies. So, I mean, condensing all of that into one question, Does God care that we understand the nature of the universe and that they are the creator of said universe?

Randy Bell [01:19:47] Well, the God that I, if there's a God, and I believe there is, that God preceded time, space, and matter, preceded the Big bang, which is a very different God than the God of our childhood religions. And I would think, to answer your question, yes, I think God does care. Does he intervene? Not a lot. Can he intervene? Yeah, I think he can. But does he intervene as much as we want? Probably not. So that's kind of my concept of God.

Allan Mount [01:20:27] Okay, so God does care that we understand that they were the creator of all of this. God. That's important to God.

Randy Bell [01:20:37] I can't speak for God. Let's be real clear about that.

Allan Mount [01:20:42] So let me. Rather than trying to lead you down a set, I don't want you to feel like I'm leading You down a gotcha question track. But this is where my head goes is if God does care that we understand that they were the creator of this universe, that it is super important we understand that. And even sprinkling in some dogma that we thank that God and praise that God for this creation that we get.

Allan Mount [01:21:09] Why in the H E double E hockey sticks. Yes, that is heel. Because I said double E, not double L. I recognized my folly. Why did it take 4,000 years for that God to correct the account of Genesis with that scientist to get to the Big Bang theory, for this priest to come up with, oh, this is what the Bible meant. What about the 4,000 people, or excuse me, 4,000 years worth of people that never got to benefit from that understanding?

Allan Mount [01:21:42] Does God love us more in the current day because we have a better understanding now? He led these intellectuals, he led these scientists to the theist scientists to. To better explain the universe with an explanation of God. Why are we privileged in 2022 to have that. That source of knowledge compared to people in 1100 Asbekistan, which probably didn't exist in 1100? Why. Why us? Why do we get that? When I look at. When I zoom out and look at all of that, like, that's a really big problem for me. It's a really big problem for me that all these people in the past are just God.

Carah Burrell [01:22:23] Just.

Allan Mount [01:22:24] They can live their 30 to 35 years in misery and not under. In ignorance and not understanding. When we get this splendor of knowledge to understand why God wanted this. This universe to be created.

Randy Bell [01:22:37] Yeah.

Allan Mount [01:22:38] Does that make sense? I'm trying to use.

Carah Burrell [01:22:40] And you're not even talking about, like, salvation in hell yet.

Allan Mount [01:22:42] You're not even talking about that scientific knowledge.

Carah Burrell [01:22:45] Yeah, just not.

Allan Mount [01:22:46] I'm assuming that what you're explaining is true. Like, let's pretend. Yeah, not even pretend like, you believe it. And that's great. I'm accepting it. I'm accepting it. Even if I did accept it and say, like, this is the way to explain the universe, my first question would be, what? What the heck, God? Why us? Why do we get this? Why didn't the people, you know, if slavery is wrong, if racism is wrong, if LGBTQ stuff is wrong, and we need to treat everybody like this. Why the 4000 years of oppression and why conversion therapy and why slavery based on race and why all of this stuff? Why didn't you care back then?

Randy Bell [01:23:23] Yeah. So I understand.

Allan Mount [01:23:25] Please answer for the omnipotent creator of the universe.

Randy Bell [01:23:27] Well, I cannot do that, but I'll give you what my three and a half pound brain can come up with. It sounds like you're kind of asking the kind of good versus evil type questions. Why are we in a state of privilege where our predecessors and ancestors and ancient ancestors had such a difficult life? And if God cares, why is he apparently caring for us even more? Is that a fair assessment?

Allan Mount [01:23:55] I love that you tried to reframe what I was saying, because that shows that you really want to understand in general. Yes, that's what I'm saying is it doesn't seem like God cares. Show me he does. Or she.

Randy Bell [01:24:07] I love the way that you've gone from kind of the science ex nihilo abogenesis to. That's really the heart. That is the big question. A lot of people struggle with that, including me, because, as you know, I studied disasters as a career and I see things where families are just horrific things all day long. And I'm trying to do my best as an economist to get compensation and reconciliation of that, but I see a lot of really ugly things. And so I ask that question almost on a daily basis when I see another explosion or something.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] And this question has a technical term, right? It's the problem of evil.

Randy Bell [01:24:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] And there's a term for it. Carol, you Google that because my. I'm just having a senior moment.

Randy Bell [01:24:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] What is it called? The problem of evil.

Randy Bell [01:24:52] That's what I would call it.

Allan Mount [01:24:54] Yeah. Why. Why do good things happen to bad people?

John Dehlin [01:24:56] There's a technical term.

Carah Burrell [01:24:57] I'm looking it up.

Randy Bell [01:24:58] All right. All right. Well, yeah. I mean, you. I love it, Allan, because you kind of went, let's. Let's get right at that very toughest question. And I'll just give you my best shot. And that is. I don't know, let's start out with that. But my best speculation is. And that's all we can really do to speculate that and try and understand, at least in my mind, the mind and will of God, is that there is hate, there is evil. When I see people say there's no evil, I just. I don't know what to do with that. Because, you know, when people are going into the Pulse nightclub and shooting up gay men or.

The Problem of Evil and Theodicy

Randy Bell [01:25:33] Or into a school and shooting little kids, that's evil. I don't know what else you could call it. So I think we. I don't know, tell me if you agree that there is good and evil or how do you handle it?

Allan Mount [01:25:45] Yeah, I mean, yes. I mean, but it's not as binary as just good. Just Evil.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] And by the way, the technical term is theodicy.

Randy Bell [01:25:53] Theodicy.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] That's the problem of evil.

Carah Burrell [01:25:56] It's one of the number one reasons that I became an atheist is the question on how to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering with an omnipotent and omni malevolent and omniscient God. And those three things happen.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] God knows everything and is loving and is all powerful. Why is he, she, they. It allowing.

Randy Bell [01:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Somebody born to be raped and killed,

Carah Burrell [01:26:19] born with birth defects in the middle of a third world country.

Allan Mount [01:26:22] And I even was trying not zoom in on, on the evil part of that conversation, on the bad things happening to good people type of conversation. I was trying to say just from a knowledge and understanding the universe.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] But that's a soft form of evil.

Allan Mount [01:26:35] It's a soft form of. Sure, it's a soft form, but it's. Yeah, but I mean, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.

Carah Burrell [01:26:40] Yeah. And Allan, I totally vibe with you on that because as an example to me, a great way for God to tell us that, hey, this book is going to have some problems. It's going to be written by men. But I'm going to give you clues. It would be something that would be counterintuitive to the people of the time. So like if Genesis had something where it had a formula to show us how the Earth was created that we could still use that formula today. But instead it has that light became light was invented in Genesis before the sun, where that's impossible. So it seems like Occam's razor. The most likely thing is it's just invented by people who didn't know the first thing about how the Earth was created.

Allan Mount [01:27:16] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:27:16] And so if there was a God who was trying to write the Bible, why is he not. He's giving people opposite evidence. He's giving people bad things, bad ideas to go off of for 4,000 years where it's science that has to now unravel all of these entangles of lies, of not just about, you know, science and mathematics and the origins of the earth, but also about gay people, people of different races, all of those different things. So that's, that's how I understand Allan's question at least.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] And I, of course we're not expecting you to resolve the problem.

Randy Bell [01:27:45] No, I'm here to solve everything.

Carah Burrell [01:27:46] We want to know why, how you ra. How you rationalize it. Because we just said it's the, the question of how to reconcile the existence of a God who can be all of Those things and how you sit with it.

Randy Bell [01:27:59] Okay, here's how I sit with it. The question of what's the word again? Theology.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] Theodicy.

Randy Bell [01:28:06] Theodicy. That's awesome. I've learned something valuable today for sure. The way I look at it is that with theodicy, the question of does God care? That's kind of a C question in a way because a lot of religions besides Christianity believe that there's a God that cares. But the way I look at it is that it's kind of like a caterpillar. If you peel back the cocoon of a butterfly, that butterfly is not going to have the strength to live a normal butterfly life. It's got to go through the exercise, the painful exercises of breaking through that.

Randy Bell [01:28:49] But that's kind of a C answer going to the B question. There are plenty of deists, people that believe in an intelligent creator, but that kind of created things and then took off. So there would still be a God with the deist point of view.

Randy Bell [01:29:06] So I think there's two kind of issues. But if there's a God that created us and then took off, as a lot of deists, some deists believe in, that would kind of solve, settle that kind of question. I think looking at it just in that perspective and forgetting the good and evil, God took off.

John Dehlin [01:29:26] And do you ever. I've also heard that description of God as a small G God. So there's kind of the big G God that's involved in all our lives and cares about a sparrow falling from the sky and every petal on a daisy. And you know, the Mormon Jesus like loves every person, loves and knows every person individually by name. And not only that, but has suffered every single pain that anyone in the universe, in all existence has ever suffered or felt. That's Mormon Jesus. He's felt it all, descended below it all, knows you by name, knows you personally, loves you individually. That's kind of. We'll call that big G God or Big J Jesus. And then like the, the, the deistic Thomas Jeffersonian kind of God is one again that like settled us to motion and then just kind of stepped out.

Randy Bell [01:30:19] Right?

John Dehlin [01:30:19] You, you, you go to deism as a way to try to explain the theodicy suffering in the world. But, but I think the common response there is what type of God is that? What type of parent, like we often like to call God heavenly Father. As if Jesus or God are like the, the perfect, the best parent of all parent isn't that are super neglectful, irresponsible parent that makes that baby and then takes off and lets the baby just wither and die or suffer. Like, is that a God? Is a deistic God even a God worth worshiping and wanting to be with forever?

Randy Bell [01:30:58] Well, yeah, those are all great questions. And this, I mean, just very brief detour. Mormonism presupposes that there's a God and presupposes that the Bible is true in large part. And so we're kind of going back and visiting these issues that we were never really trained or studied in our childhood religions. So I just. I love the conversation because these are the big questions that theologians and scientists and secular folks are asking. And I love to be kind of bringing that to the table on the Mormon Stories platform. And yeah, I don't have a good answer for that, John. Obviously. I mean, that sounds like a God that would create us and then take off. That does sound pretty brutal. And I can't say anything other than I agree with that kind of premise given deism. That's why I'm more of a theist. But that's just me.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Okay.

Allan Mount [01:31:59] As soon as I personally allow God the ability to interact with us. As soon as. If God interacts or what was the term you used? Sorry, I'm having a senior moment now.

John Dehlin [01:32:16] The honesty. What?

Allan Mount [01:32:17] No, not interact, but intervention. Yeah, intervene. If God does intervene in our lives at a rate greater than zero, it creates so many problems in my mind of then why didn't God intervene in the Pulse nightclub fire or shooting? Excuse me? Yeah, why didn't God intervene in the underwater volcano which has completely swamped Tonga? Why didn't God, as soon as there is any intervention allowed, that's difficult for me. And so like the God, if you put me in a corner and maybe help me see where my folly is in this statement. If you put me in a corner and said you believe in a God, define it.

Allan Mount [01:32:57] The God that I could say could exist is a God that is unable or unwilling to intervene in our lives, is a God that doesn't care what our understanding is. And maybe I could even say is a God. I could go as far as saying is a God that values, that wants us to try to figure it out, that this is all something. If this God created this, they want us to struggle and figure out what is going on here, to create our own purpose. Because a clearly defined divine purpose is non existent. It's not clear. There's too many of them for it to be clear.

Allan Mount [01:33:42] There's so much confusion around that topic. So that's the God If a God does exist, is very clear that those are the qualities of that God doesn't care that we know that they are there, is unwilling to intervene or unable to intervene.

Allan Mount [01:33:58] And it's just if they're watching us, it's just a weird. It brings me back to know that God just doesn't exist either. But that's kind of how I look at it right now.

Randy Bell [01:34:09] I get it. And first of all, if I've send any signal that I think you are in folly was your word. I love you just the way you are and I love your questions. And I in large part agree. I mean, it's really tough.

Randy Bell [01:34:29] We're talking about the issue that took Bart Ehrman from a Yale theologian, a believer, to being agnostic. It's a big problem. It's a big issue. And I don't have cute little answers to even compound the problem. A lot of some, I want to say not all, but some evangelical and other branches of religion pop back with these anecdotal answers that are not helping.

Randy Bell [01:34:54] They complicate the problem and really frustrate the problem rather than just acknowledging that we don't have really solid, great answers for these things. And nor do I. I can just tell you my experience. And I didn't even talk about this yesterday because it didn't come up. But I was born with a congenital heart defect and it beat the out of me. See, I'm editing my own language and I struggled with why me? I remember the day at Acacia Elementary. I'm looking out at all the kids and I'm thinking, this summer, instead of going to the beach, I got to spend all my summertime in the hospital undergoing open heart surgery.

Randy Bell [01:35:35] And then I asked that question to my friend Jerry Jewell, who we talked about a little bit yesterday. She was born with cerebral palsy. I went to high school with her and she has horrible bouts of pain and suffering and agony, stuff I can't even imagine. Then she lost her sister to cancer. I mean, and there are a lot of people around the world, and you know this better than me, that would trade their problems, our problems, for their problems any day of the week because they're horrific.

Randy Bell [01:36:01] I don't have any cute, anecdotal, sweet answers for that. It's just tough. And it is what it is, other than to say I think all your questions and observations are very, very valid. And I struggle with the same stuff.

Allan Mount [01:36:17] Thanks for validating my concerns.

Randy Bell [01:36:19] Yeah, I love you. I love you back.

Randy's Frustrations and Personal Biases

John Dehlin [01:36:23] So I was going to ask this earlier, Randy, we Talked about antitheist.

Randy Bell [01:36:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] I think sometimes secular folk feel like religious folk can be anti atheist.

Randy Bell [01:36:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] And I think you've worked really hard as. As a personal friend of mine and as a personal friend of Randy's. And in your interview yesterday, he's a friend of himself. I keep saying Randy, I mean, Allan, love you. Dang it. Thank you, Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:36:56] Exemplifying that.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] Thank you, Allan, for always correcting me. I'm really struggling with names right now. You've worked really hard to reassure. Allan is your friend. Me as your friend, and on yesterday's episode. Yeah. You've worked hard to reassure all secular folk that you're down with us. You love us, you support us, you. You accept us as we are.

Randy Bell [01:37:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:16] So it sounds like you are trying to offer what you want in return, which is unconditional love and respect from atheist folk. Is that right? And when you do. But I also feel like you get frustrated with atheists, and so when you do get frustrated with atheists, what are your biggest frustrations? I want to give you a chance to vocalize that if you're willing.

Randy Bell [01:37:43] If I'm frustrated, it's more with myself and my own. It comes back to me and trying to understand other points of view and. And I'm trying to sort this out like everybody else. These are all, if we are honest. I think everybody here is honest. We're struggling with the big questions, which a lot of people go through life and they're on their deathbed and they never engaged with this discussion. That's sad. That's sad. I don't think, you know, and I'm frustrated with myself for, you know, not doing enough research for.

Randy Bell [01:38:19] And I'm also frustrated with my, you know, my new tribe, if you will, of Christianity that they've made people like Allan feel bad or secular people feel bad and adding fuel to the fire that there's some big divide. We're on this planet together. We're trying to sort this stuff out. So if it's frustrated, it's not with atheists. It's somewhat with myself and somewhat with the Christian community. Some who have acted in really uninspiring and unhelpful ways. So.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] No, but I, you know, we're. We're part of a tech string. And yeah, we've had some exchanges where you've said, man, those, those ex Mormon atheists really frustrate me sometimes. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you don't remember or if you just don't want to go there. But I think from time to time you get frustrated with how strident ex Mormon atheists can be with, with. And I think maybe you've already said all you want to say there, which is you don't like antitheists or, or, or gnostic atheists that, that basically feel like they know you're probably, you want to see more humility. So I'm putting words in your mouth now, but knowing you, I've sensed you're frustrated when an atheist person acts like they know anything for certain and, and when they, when they act like religion is all bad. Are those two possible things?

Randy Bell [01:39:41] Well, first of all, I'm happy to go there or anywhere else you want to go. Yeah, I get frustrated when I get called a name. Just like if somebody says something rude to you, Allan, it's frustrating. You know, what are names you've been called Irrational in a dark place. You know, of course there's the comments about Sky Daddy and God Magic and all of that. And you know, I think the name calling is not productive and sometimes I do ventures, you know, with my friends about being frustrated at that. And I can understand to some degree why people are anti theist.

Randy Bell [01:40:13] I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand that some people in religion have really abused religion and really cause a lot of harm. And that's heartbreaking to me because I don't identify or support that segment of theology. I really don't.

Randy Bell [01:40:32] And it's wrong and it's embarrassing. So I want to acknowledge that and I understand that people that are beat up and go through the meat grinder of a really abusive religious system, whatever that looks like, are going to be very angry and maybe they're expressing their angry in a way that is kind of frustrating to me to be called names like irrational faith and all that kind of stuff. I think I'm reasonably rational and to the extent I'm not, I'm openly to being corrected. So yeah, I do get frustrated sometimes and I, I've done my best to kind of explain why.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] Okay. I have a, do you have a question for any or. I've got one, but I.

Allan Mount [01:41:12] Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] Okay. So Randy, and for me this is cutting to the chase with you.

Randy Bell [01:41:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] But I think it applies to a lot of believers.

Carah Burrell [01:41:20] Sure have ice in your mouth.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] I do.

Carah Burrell [01:41:24] Want me to get you a water, John, so you can stop doing that?

Allan Mount [01:41:26] You're not the only one.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] I'll just spit it out. Okay. So thank you, Carah. I'm sure if it's annoying to you it's annoying to our listeners. I try and hydrate. Okay. So once upon a time, you and I were having brunch, one of our several epic brunches.

Randy Bell [01:41:41] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] And we were talking about all this stuff, and I was. I was kind of. Without having really understood Anthony Magnabasco. I was trying to get to your epistemology.

Randy Bell [01:41:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] And I'm just going to tell you my memory of that conversation. I started asking you more and more to peel back the layers. What I remember it really coming down to for you was you talking about your dad and how you really loved your dad and you really miss your dad and you really want to see your dad again someday.

Randy Bell [01:42:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] And not just your dad, but other loved ones. And that's when I tried my best to really understand Randy's theology. For me, that was ground zero.

Randy Bell [01:42:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] Is that an unfair characterization of the foundation of your religious belief?

Randy Bell [01:42:36] I think that is more than fair. I think you've nailed the, you know, nailed it. I have a bias. Anybody who is anybody has a bias. And that, you know, that certainly, you know, includes me. I mean, the stark reality, and it's really an ugly thought, at least for me, is we're all going to croak. We're all going to die. And the question of what's beyond that is a question that is of great interest to me and billions of other people. And so, yeah, I own that. I agree with you, and I fully admit I have a bias. Maybe it's a confirmation bias where I'm only looking at things that support the position that. Where I've been through, and I'm willing to own that, too. But I think we all got to own our bias,

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Allan.

Allan Mount [01:43:30] Yeah. So it's, I would say, funny, but Dad's dying isn't terribly funny, but it's

John Dehlin [01:43:36] because, Allan, for those who don't know you.

Randy Bell [01:43:37] Yeah.

Allan Mount [01:43:38] The commonality that we have is my father was killed by a drunk driver.

Randy Bell [01:43:43] Right.

Allan Mount [01:43:44] About eight years ago. And I've gotten that comment a lot. And I'm not propping up what you're saying at all, but it's interesting that we could land so different, on such different sides of belief, when some of the same triggers that have made us think about some of this stuff are very close to the same traumatic loss. Right.

Allan Mount [01:44:07] And in this case, you know, I get a lot of comments. I was starting to say before I distracted myself, a lot of comments on. On tick tock of isn't it scary to think that when you die, that's it, that you're gone forever. There's a lot of cliche ways to answer, to answer that of, well, I don't remember what it was like to. Before I was born. And that's how it's going to be afterwards. It's not going to be painful, it's just going to be nothing. Sure, you can explain it that way. But again, going back to when I introduced myself, it's how much I want it to be true doesn't make it more true for me.

Allan Mount [01:44:43] So for me, yeah, it. That's a harsh reality that I have to, I have to wrestle with and that's. I gotta go to therapy and I've got to talk to people about this and I have to, I have to wrestle. And I've had to wrestle with the fact that a lady made a bad decision one day and my dad is gone forever because of it. And you explained it with people getting cancer and all the trauma that you've experienced in your life, sometimes, man, the dice just comes up snake eyes. And that sucks. And that's unfair. And I think we want so badly for balance and fairness in this world, but I look at it and I just say that's just what it is.

Allan Mount [01:45:23] He's gone and I'm never going to see him again. And that sucks. But the optimistic part of it, and this is why I love the term optimistic nihilism, is I don't believe we're here for any particular reason. And that is freeing to me because we get to create our own. And for me, I look at it and say, I got 31 years with this man who never faltered in his belief of Mormonism, but was a good man. And I learned a lot from him. And he had his faults and I learned from those two.

Allan Mount [01:45:53] And I'm so grateful for that 31 years that I got. It's 31 more than I ever should have gotten. Statistically speaking, I should not exist. But I do. And that is amazing. And that's. That is kind of where I've landed on, on my coping with loss is being. And I'm not saying you're not grateful for the life you have, because you absolutely are. I see it and you express that, but I don't think I'm ever going to see him again. I think it's. That's beyond the realm of possibility.

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

Randy Bell [01:46:23] Well, the thing that I get of a lot of value from what you've said and which we've. Prior conversations is that, you know, this life, at least my mindset now is very different than it was. I Don't think we're putting the shoulder. Move along. I don't think we're, you know, sacrificing for the next life. You know, in Islam, you know, you fly planes into the World Trade center, so you get 14 virgins in the next life or whatever that belief system is.

Allan Mount [01:46:52] If it was 15, I'd be in. I'm just kidding. That was a bad joke.

Randy Bell [01:46:57] Yeah, really bad. No, but we're get a comment where

Carah Burrell [01:47:01] somebody says about Islam, we got to clarify. We know that those were fundamentalists.

Randy Bell [01:47:07] Just please don't leave a comment. The vast majority of Muslim people are just absolutely wonderful.

Carah Burrell [01:47:12] Andy had a great story about some, some Muslims saved his tail yesterday.

Randy Bell [01:47:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah, continue. Yeah, but the

John Dehlin [01:47:21] way.

Randy Bell [01:47:21] And I've switched my whole mind paradigm from this whole sacrifice and you know, go through the grunginess of life to have a wonderful afterlife to saying, hey, I've got it pretty good. I've got a lot of privilege and I've got great friends and I. And more, far more. And this is a lot going back to what Margi talks about her podcast of really plugging into now I'm sitting here with three super cool friends. Carah's a new friend. I've known you guys for a while and I'm just digging it. I'm loving it right now. I don't need to worry about the next life. But I think, John, you nailed it.

Randy Bell [01:48:00] I mean, I do kind of think about it, but circling around, there's another getting back to science and answering kind of this question. I don't know how much you've got into near death experiences. And when I bring this up with a lot of folks, there's an ignorant dismissal of, oh, that's just a delusion when the brain is shutting down. But there's a book out called the Science of Near Death Experiences. It's a compilation of 12, at least 12 articles published in peer reviewed medical journals where they verified things, women who, a woman who for example, was born blind, she never saw and she's on the operating table, she goes clinical, clinically brain dead for 21 minutes or something like that, comes back, identifies everyone in the room, saw for the first time, knew the serial number on the equipment and that kind of stuff, which gives me some kind of evidence, if you will, published in scientific literature that there is a supernatural aspect of life, there is a spiritual dimension.

Randy Bell [01:49:02] Science calls it translogical. And that gives me some hope. I don't know Jack, but I have some hope based on things like that that maybe you will see Your dad again. Maybe I will see my dad again. I sure want to, and I own my bias. But how do, how do you kind of respond to some of that kind of scientific evidence?

Allan Mount [01:49:25] I mean, to be completely honest and transparent, I haven't put in all of the work that I would need to, to have a eloquent response to scientific.

Randy Bell [01:49:36] That's fair.

Allan Mount [01:49:36] Peer reviewed journals. My understanding is that it's still a leap to say therefore. This is what happens. Someone coming back to life and suddenly they have their eyesight again and they saw things that they've never seen before. And I've read, you know, that hospitals had on top of cabinets have numbers that the people said, why is there a 14 on top of the serial number or whatever it may be? Yeah, again, it's, I don't know, I can't explain that.

Allan Mount [01:50:05] But I don't make the leap. Right. Like my response again is it's a leap to say therefore Christ resurrected. Which I'm not saying you're saying, but it's, it's like it, it, it's still a, a argument from incredulity in my eyes of. I don't, Yeah, I don't understand it. But okay, I'm not going to reject. A lot of people can come to me and say, I shouldn't say a lot fewer than I would hope. Come to me and say, this is an experience I had. How would you interpret that? Which is slightly different than what you're saying because you're not actually saying I had this experience because the first thing I do in those situations, it said, look, I'm not going to interpret an experience that you had.

Allan Mount [01:50:44] That's not fair. I'm not going to minimize an experience that you had. Some of the time people will then push back and say, no, I want you to. If this had happened to you, what would you think? And in those moments, I mean, I've had experiences that many times in my life. Prior to five years ago, I would say were undeniable proof that God exists and God loves me, and now I reject them. And it's just the world that I live in now where it's been proven in my own experience that the way that I used to identify truth is no longer reliable. And so in, in those experiences, if someone came to me and said, I had this experience on the operating table and I saw the serial number, I'd say, wow, thank goodness you're still alive.

Allan Mount [01:51:29] Like, how cool is that? That's so great. What is, what is that? I would try to be Curious. And what does that mean to you? Like, what are you going to do now that you have a second chance at life?

Allan Mount [01:51:38] And as long as their answer isn't, well, I'm going to make sure that, That I, I join a religion and, and oppress people like it's. And which isn't usually the case. That that's, that is what a cool experience for them and they get to make the most of their second chance. Go for it. That's great. I would try to. Try to avoid.

Allan Mount [01:51:57] Trying to push my own view of the world on such a meaningful experience that someone would have had, but when pressed. Yeah, I'll tell them they're crazy. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I would not. All right.

John Dehlin [01:52:10] Yeah. Yeah. And I. What I'm always trying to do is because I, I really do think that way too much energy and time and effort has been placed on wedges between theists and non theists. And I, I think it's a huge waste. I think there's so much more just, just between Allan and Randy. There's so much more that you guys share than that you differ.

Randy Bell [01:52:44] Oh, that's for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:45] I mean, it's. I mean, I think that I know you both and I think. I think the concentric circles overlap 99.9%, honestly, in terms of your values, how you live your life, what's important to you.

Allan Mount [01:52:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:00] How you want to treat people, how you want to spend your time. So what I'm always trying to do is just build consensus and say, we don't need to argue about this. We don't need to look down on each other like, Allan, you had your dad die. You want to see your dad.

John Dehlin [01:53:18] You. For you, it doesn't make sense to cling to a story that, that gives you hope that you might see him again. That's just not how you make sense of the world. But that's just, that's just what you choose to do. And then you, Randy, you.

John Dehlin [01:53:38] It brings you comfort to arrange the evidence or create a story or fill in the gaps with the story. That gives you hope, that gives you meaning, that gives you purpose. Secular people should look down on you, Randy, and say, well, that's lame of you to make a story. If, if you. Clinging to a story provides you hope and meaning, by the way, the story could be true. And that's where agnosticism comes in. None of us can tell you your story is dumb or won't come true because we don't know what happens when we die.

John Dehlin [01:54:08] So we secular people should allow Randy the grace and the respect to say, that's the story that Randy likes. Gives them comfort. Go, Randy. And then we, what I think we want are theistic people to not go, well, too bad for you guys, you don't have a story. And how many of us have sat through Mormon sacrament meetings where literally the testimony was, aren't we all glad we're not ignorant and faithless like all those people out there that aren't joining with us today in sacrament meeting? We've all said those things, let alone been in the room and those things were said.

John Dehlin [01:54:45] So I think we, we don't want theistic people to look down their noses at us and say, poor you, you're, you don't got the right story or you're not going to be in a good place afterwards or you lack something.

John Dehlin [01:54:58] What if it really, what if we're really all seeing the world very similarly and some of us find meaning in some story and some of us don't, but that's almost like whether you wear a yellow shirt or a red shirt, it kind of really doesn't matter.

Randy Bell [01:55:13] Yeah, I think that's really well said, John. And I think that frankly parts of theologians and theology and churches and synagogues and mosques, and there's a segment in all of that that does take a dogmatic approach and does make people who are wonderful people, who I would not want to change, feel bad. And for that, it's talking about loaded language. You say you're a Christian and a lot of people associate a lot with that word. And that's just not me. And frankly, it's not the Christian people I like to hang out with. And so to the extent that people have done the same thing back, because there's name calling going all the way around, that's just not productive.

Randy Bell [01:56:02] And certainly Christianity and other theologies have done more than enough damage by being judgmental, being harsh, and for that it's just really regrettable because that shouldn't ever be the message. So I hear you loud and clear.

Allan Mount [01:56:20] I don't even like the term pushback on what you said, John, and what you reaffirmed, Randy. But I would say that there's a very fine line between avoiding contention, where I was programmed my whole life in the religion that I was raised in, that contentions of the devil that arguing and debating are, that is not the place, especially on the topic of religion, that any, any bad feelings or this cognitive dissonance, and that's not a term that I really was taught Growing up, that that is bad and you need to avoid it.

Allan Mount [01:56:57] So focusing on consensus and that bridge building and, hey, we're not so different, so, so, so important. But so many of the times those victories are won by working through the differences, by bringing the differences to the table. Respectfully, of course. But leaning into, like, you're an anti vaxxer, and I'm pointing at you rhetorically, metaphorically, let's not get into it. But you're an anti vaxxer. I'm not. Let's talk. And oh my gosh, I shouldn't even brought that conversation up. Is that. Holy cow. Anyway, rewind 10 seconds. But coming to the table with acknowledging and even leaning into those differences is the only way that consensus can be made.

Allan Mount [01:57:38] It's the only way that understanding can be made. And it's okay to sit in that discomfort. I want to find that point that you make that freaks my brain out, that says, wait a minute, you just made a lot of sense.

Allan Mount [01:57:54] But it totally contradicts something that I hold so close. I want to identify that. But if we don't get into the differences, we never reach that spot. And that's what this conversation is. We've talked about a lot of differences and the hope, I hope that all four of us leave this going. There were some things I hadn't thought about before, but don't avoid the uncomfortable conversation.

Randy Bell [01:58:16] Yeah. And I think as we go from being dogmatic, which is a very comfortable place to be, to more enlightened, which is frankly more and more uncomfortable, but nonetheless kind of deal with that and manage that, we start getting at better answers. And I love talking to and exploring with agnostics and atheists because it knocks a lot of the spurs off dumb old ideas I hang onto because I don't want to be that guy that made anybody, including an atheist or an agnostic or a Buddhist, feel badly about themselves. Because in my belief system, I always say, if there is a God, and I believe there is, I don't think that that's what God would want me to do.

Randy Bell [01:59:07] I think I should be there to love and support that person, meet them where they are and not try to change them and learn from them. Frankly, I'm not there to preach, Adam. I served a mission. I got that out of my system. I'm more in the sponge learn mode.

Allan Mount [01:59:23] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] So I'm gonna, I'm gonna just put something forward now as kind of a way to at least summarize what we've talked about so far. And I want to see If I can get you, Randy, to agree to two statements. All right, okay, so, and, and I agree. Allan, well said. What, what you just said for me. One of the card. Randy, question number one. Four theists. Is it fair to say one of the cardinal sins of, of atheists or non theists would be from your perspective, sort of like looking down their nose being demeaning, being insulting, sort of like summarizing your theism as being ignorant or foolish or childish or ill informed. And in using demeaning language and name calling to, you know, to talk down to believers. That's question number one. Is that the cardinal sin in your view of non theists or atheists?

Cardinal Sins of Atheism and Theism in Dialogue

Randy Bell [02:00:39] I think that in these, in these conversations. Yeah. I think that atheists don't have. It's just a small segment of atheists

John Dehlin [02:00:47] when they mess up.

Randy Bell [02:00:48] Yeah. When they do that, that rubs me the wrong way. I sent to some degree. I still get triggered by that. Yeah, that's my issue. Not atheist issues.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] No, but I mean, we want our listeners who are atheist or non theist.

Randy Bell [02:01:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:04] To, to learn how to have to Allan's point. We need to have these conversations. So if atheists and agnostics and non theists have one thing they need to learn, it's to not look on believers as inferior or weak or dumb or childish. Inferior.

Randy Bell [02:01:23] Yeah. But to round out my answer, I mean, I'm going back to a Guardian article. I read that I think it was 12 or 14% of all atheists fit into that category. And that's a category of dogma that is not really endorsed by the broader world of atheism, which is very intelligent, very insightful, very moral, very ethical, very wonderful in every way. And that's not to say that that 14% has a monopoly on bad behavior because there are theists that do the exact same thing and they drive me nuts, too. I'm absolutely certain in this interview I'm going to get theists and Christians and dogmatic Christians barking at me that I got my theology all wrong.

Randy Bell [02:02:05] So it's dogma across the board. And no particular group has a monopoly on bad behavior. But the vast majority of people, like the vast majority of atheists are like Allan, wonderful people that are my friends that I learn from. So that's kind of the space I come from.

John Dehlin [02:02:22] Okay. All right. Yeah, so we got consensus there.

Randy Bell [02:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:25] All right, here's my next, here's my next question. I think you, Carah, you and Allan can, can add to this, but what I would say would be a cardinal sin from our Perspective. I think we want, I think non believers and I again, I don't identify as atheist or agnostic per se.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] I think what I think we want that respect. So I think that's, we have a common value there. I think what we want is for believers to number one, acknowledge that they have assembled the evidence or created a story in a way that just makes them feel better and to just have them sort of say, you know, this is a story that makes me feel better. Theism, Christianity. But I acknowledge that it's just the way I've created a story or the way humanity has created a common story. But we don't really know.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] And, and we're not even going to pretend like we have a better understanding of the evidence or like the evidence that we assemble actually is very meaningful. At the end of the day we who are believers have created a story that makes us feel good and that's, that's really the foundation of our religious beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:03:46] But that's, but, but you know, it works for us. So respect. So you know, so I think that's what we want. I don't think we want a religious person to pretend like they've got evidence that really does back or support what they're trying to say, that they can just accept that it really is just a story that makes them feel good. Now does that make you uncomfortable if I characterize it that way or at the end of the day, can you go, yeah, that's actually what I'm doing, but it works for me and it might be true.

Randy Bell [02:04:17] I think in part you're right. We all come up with narratives that we're comfortable with, but I have really tried, perhaps unsuccessfully. And I'm open to other things, but in what I've looked at, there's evidence that supports atheism or agnostic and frankly, out of all of this being agnostic and questioning is probably the predominant thing because I sure don't know. There's lots of questions. But I like to think that there's some sensible evidence. Like I just referred to the multiple articles published in peer reviewed articles. That's evidence that would go into court under the rules of evidence.

Randy Bell [02:04:59] So I don't think it's all just pathos and emotion, at least for me. I like to be grounded in something that's a little more substantive than that. But that's not to say that atheists can't do the same thing with evidence or philosophical points that have validity. So I think it's a mix. I don't know that I'm willing to buy off it at all, being pathos and all emotion and just all a story is what I'm saying. I think it's part of it.

John Dehlin [02:05:28] Because if we're really trying to tease these points apart, and Allan, maybe you and Carah, maybe you guys can help me out with this. An atheist position isn't really a position. It's just. It's just saying I don't see evidence that makes me want to believe in a supreme being or some type of theology. So it's not really a position. It's actually just a decision not to take a position. So you can't ever. There's no such thing as evidence for the atheist point of view.

Randy Bell [02:05:57] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:58] So in that sense, I, at least on our side, and I'm not an atheist, but like, at least on this side that I'm trying to represent, I don't even think there's a claim that there's evidence to support that point of view. Is that right, Allan?

Allan Mount [02:06:13] Yeah, I mean, that's how I look at it. Some atheists do try to say, I'm claiming God does not exist, but the default. And Carrie, correct me if you think I'm wrong here, but I think the default atheist perspective is that there is no atheist perspective. That it's, oh, you have a claim.

John Dehlin [02:06:30] Cool.

Allan Mount [02:06:30] Show it to me. And then I'll ruminate. I'll research and look at it and think about it and decide if I think that there's evidence for it or not.

Carah Burrell [02:06:37] I've had one of your tiktoks stuck in my head all week, Allan, where you said atheist is just saying when you say that there's a claim of a God, it's me saying, prove it.

Allan Mount [02:06:46] Prove it.

Carah Burrell [02:06:47] Yeah, right.

Randy Bell [02:06:48] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:06:48] That's all there is. It's just somebody's making a claim about a deity.

Allan Mount [02:06:52] Yeah, I've gotten a lot. I've just interrupted you.

Carah Burrell [02:06:55] Sorry. That's it. Just somebody making a claim about a deity and me going, all right, that's your claim. It doesn't affect me because I don't see evidence to believe in it. And that's. Again, we have to tease apart the agnosticism versus the atheism is I have no good reason to believe in your deity. Right. I have not been presented with that evidence yet. If I were, I'd be open to it. But I do not worship anything, any kind of creator. It has to do with a relationship to me about worshiping something that created me. Don't got the evidence for it. So do I wake up every Day and pray. That's. Nope. That's what an atheist is to me. I don't have any place where I direct worship to, but. Yeah. What are you going to say?

Allan Mount [02:07:30] Yeah, no, I think that's, that's great. I have nothing to add there.

John Dehlin [02:07:32] Yeah. So in a sense you were trying to be gracious by saying there's evidence on both sides of the issue. And I'm on the one hand saying thank you. And I don't think we're even asking for that graciousness because we really aren't taking that position. But, but there's also like a, I don't want to say a double slap in the face. Not only are we saying thanks, but no thanks to your, your gracious extension of like evidence on our side.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] But, but when you lovingly say there's evidence on your side, or at least 51% or however you arrange it, I think in my heart of hearts, what I'm wishing you would say is there's no evidence for a God. None. Like that's a story.

John Dehlin [02:08:19] But. It's a story that makes me feel good and that's okay. But the. But, but any attempt you go near death experience that we can't understand, ergo God, Big bang, prior to big bang, we don't understand it, ergo God. I guess I'm wishing that you would concede that that's not evidence, that that's just a story and that's. But when I say just a story, like I'm thinking about Austin Archer. Like this guy, I told you about him. We had, we had this amazing million subscriber tick tocker on who left Mormonism, became an alcoholic, was ready to die, right? And then he's like, I need something.

John Dehlin [02:09:05] And for him he goes to Alcoholics Anonymous, right? And it's like, oh well, they. It's like he leaves Mormonism that had home teachers and a belief in a supreme being, in a community and sense of meaning and purpose and service oriented theology, he leaves all that behind. He joins, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous that believes in a supreme power that has people assigned to you to love you, that has a sense of meaning and purpose that, you know, gives you a sense of service and a community. Like he rejoins something that in some ways almost perfectly parallels what he left. But he did it because he was going to die if he didn't, right?

John Dehlin [02:09:46] And none of us are going, what a dumbass, what a weakling. We're like saying hero, this guy did something heroic. And we all celebrate that this awesome dude is Alive and thriving. So when I say it's a story, it's not like, oh, cute little Brandy's got a story.

John Dehlin [02:10:09] It's like, beautiful. You've got a story. And I'm just wishing you would. You would feel the respect in that. Not, not a sense of demeaning you, but just go, yeah, dude, you're right. It's just a story. There's no evidence. It's a leap of faith. It's a God of the gaps. That makes me happy. And, and that's great, and we respect it. And can you not step forward and say that it's evidence based? You know, okay, there's a lot there

Randy Bell [02:10:39] and a brilliant comment, but isn't it?

John Dehlin [02:10:41] No, just focus on the end. Well, forget Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, just the end point.

Randy Bell [02:10:50] The. I think I get where the three of you are coming from, but there are other atheists out there, and I'm thinking of Dawkins and his argument that evolution is evidence that disproves theism. I mean, that's how I read Dawkins, is he does take the position that atheists have evidence. So I get where you're coming from, but not all atheists are created equally in a way. And so, yeah, people are putting forth evidence all the way around. In spite of how you've framed it.

Carah Burrell [02:11:26] I.

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Would Dawkins say that evolution proves that there's no God? Or would he say that evolution disproves a literalistic interpretation of the Bible? You know what I mean? Are you, are you, are you for sure you're characterizing Dawkins position?

Randy Bell [02:11:43] I could be wrong, but I've read through that a few times and that's how I took it. If I'm. If I'm to be corrected, I'm happy to be corrected.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] Any atheist worth their weight in salt. It's the flying spaghetti monster thing. It's just like you don't. You can't prove a negative. You literally can't prove it.

Randy Bell [02:11:59] That's the whole point.

John Dehlin [02:12:01] And I know Dawkins is smart enough to acknowledge that you can't prove that behind some planet somewhere there isn't a flying spaghetti monster, that that actually is a God. You could never prove that, so he would never make that assertion.

Allan Mount [02:12:15] And I'm comfortable if he did make an assertion such as that even in print. I'm comfortable because I don't hold him to be a prophet or infallible to say, oh, well, I disagree with him on that point. That's not how I would characterize my perspective of how that's where the steel

John Dehlin [02:12:32] manning idea comes in. Because we don't want to be straw

Randy Bell [02:12:35] manned and I don't want to straw man anymore. But I think what you're referring to is you're absolutely right, you can't prove a negative. And that's the whole teapot circling Jupiter argument. And you know, part of where I'm coming from is a story that does feel comfortable and I'll own the confirmation bias for that. But I can't in all honesty agree that there is any evidence because I've just spent five years reading a ton of books on various positions that says, you know, I think there is some evidence. Whether it's good evidence, I respect that. Some people may not find it compelling or good evidence, but it's evidence nonetheless.

Randy Bell [02:13:19] So it's not entirely a story, at least in my mind. But if you've got something to show me to, you know, to change my mind, I'm open to considering that too. But I can't buy off on that. You know, everything I've kind of landed on for now is just pure story. I think there's a little more to it.

Faith, Evidence, and the Nature of God

Carah Burrell [02:13:43] So if you had never come into contact with the evidence about, let's say, like Christ's resurrection being, you know, a literal event that happened in the historical Jesus, if those events never happened, would you still feel like you had sufficient evidence to warrant a belief in God, regardless of Christ being that God?

Randy Bell [02:14:02] So if I understand your question right, Carah, if putting aside Christianity altogether.

Carah Burrell [02:14:07] Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:14:08] Do I think there's still evidence for a creator?

Carah Burrell [02:14:10] Yeah. A different way to ask that question is, is the Christian evidence that you were talking about with resurrection, is that also at the basis of your, the root of your God belief?

Randy Bell [02:14:23] No, the root of my God belief are the more the quantum physics. And seeing that quantum physics has a, frankly a supernatural realm which, which kind of gives me permission, only speaking for myself, to think that maybe supernatural aspects have some validity since science is demonstrating something that's indistinguishable from the supernatural. I think how I interpret your question is some scientists are just dead set against acknowledging anything supernatural, period. They just won't entertain it, they won't discuss it, they won't do anything. Any kind of studies that test it, they just have a wall there. I'm happy going into that sixth sense. I'm happy going into a spiritual realm and exploring. I'm totally cool with that. So to get to answering your question, Carah, I think that absent Christianity, I would probably lean on. There's something out There that's got a creative, intelligent force behind it.

Carah Burrell [02:15:33] Okay. Because the root of what I'm trying to ask is basically that you believe that there's an intelligent force to the universe that created us, that created and organized the earth in some way. And then a lot of people already feel that. But then to go one step further to that C question that you were getting into, you feel like the evidence for Christ? You, you mentioned a few times that you feel like the evidence is more overwhelming than an emotional appeal. So that the evidence for Jesus Christ literally being the son of God, or however you would phrase it, that the evidence is sufficient to warrant the belief that that creator is Jesus Christ.

Randy Bell [02:16:08] For me, yes.

Carah Burrell [02:16:09] Okay.

Randy Bell [02:16:09] Yeah. And I respect others that don't agree with me. I'm not saying that I'm dogmatic. You got to believe what I believe. I'm not saying that by a long shot. I'm just saying for me, yeah, it works.

Carah Burrell [02:16:20] Yeah. And I think you've made that really clear throughout our. We're going up on eight hours now maybe.

Randy Bell [02:16:25] Good.

Allan Mount [02:16:25] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:16:26] The Randy is anti dogma and he is really gracious with his opinions about things. And like I asked yesterday about, you know, what are the consequences for not believing. And it, it sounds like we're all, we'll all kind of end up in the same place and that God is all loving and forgiving anyway. Is that fair to say? Or how would you phrase it?

Randy Bell [02:16:48] Yeah, I can't speak for God. I just.

Carah Burrell [02:16:50] What do you believe about him?

Randy Bell [02:16:51] I believe God is very big, very powerful, way beyond my ability to understand and very gracious. And that's the best I can do. That's my. I don't see God as, you know, all the things that, you know, where I'm going to righteously judge you and I'm going to declare that you're not a, you know, worthy of heaven, you're going to hell and all that. I think God is way bigger than that.

Carah Burrell [02:17:22] Do you believe that God is all loving and all forgiving

Randy Bell [02:17:28] to the extent people want to be forgiven? Loving? Yeah. God has told me I should love everyone. I can't imagine a God that tells me to do something that God's not willing to do himself. I think the notion of a God that is conditional in their love, his or her love, I don't buy that because that contradicts what God has told me to do, which is to love unconditionally.

Carah Burrell [02:17:53] Let me ask a follow up and let's see if I can try to make this a yes or no, sure. Hate. I'm sorry. I am the hoe of nuance. I love nuance. But I want to make this a yes or no binary question. Okay. So would he forgive someone for not believing in him?

Randy Bell [02:18:08] My best guess is yes and more. You know, I do get kind of choked up. But my friend Erica, who survived the Holocaust, she made peace with Hitler. If she can do that as a human, I think God can do that and a lot more.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] Yeah.

Randy Bell [02:18:27] Yeah, I do.

Allan Mount [02:18:30] I think Carah's question, part B, or just Allan's part A, is, you know, can God forgive us for not believing him? What. What am I missing? Am I missing out on something? Like if. If I accepted Christ as my savior again, or I took your worldview on as my own, is there something that I would be gaining? What would. What would. How would that change? Maybe that's the advantage because you didn't get.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] You didn't get to finish your line of questioning right here. Go ahead. And Allan, I know. I mean, I think.

Carah Burrell [02:19:09] No, it's.

John Dehlin [02:19:11] Finish your questions.

Carah Burrell [02:19:12] Because the answer to me is, if it's yes, then there's not really a need to worship him.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] Take us through that line of thinking.

Carah Burrell [02:19:17] If so, if God is all loving and all forgiving, would he forgive someone for not believing in him?

John Dehlin [02:19:25] If the answer is yes.

Carah Burrell [02:19:26] If the answer is yes, then kind of to Allan's point, like, why do I need to worship him? If he's all loving, forgiving, why do I even need to spend time thinking about it? And if the answer is no, then he's not all loving and forgiving. And then I would go one step further and say, what's the point in worshiping a God who's not all loving and forgiving?

Carah Burrell [02:19:42] But, yeah, Allan, go ahead and finish your point because it sounds like you're saying you're trying to pose the question to. To a Christian who has such a nuanced view on these things, Randy. That as an atheist, I. I have no idea why I would ever need to spend any more time reading the Bible in a study group, doing one more moment of my time doing anything. If God is all loving and forgiving, and if he does exist, cool. Thumbs up. And he'll forgive me for not reading my Bible and going to church. I will serve people. I will love people. I will attack a systemic abuse, which I will attack dogma.

Carah Burrell [02:20:15] I'll do all of the things just without the identity as a Christian. So what. What would be. What would Allan, me, John, be gaining by believing in a literal resurrected Jesus Christ? As you do.

Randy Bell [02:20:27] Yeah, on that one. That's such a great question.

John Dehlin [02:20:32] Thanks.

Carah Burrell [02:20:32] I stole it from Allan. Yeah. Teamwork.

Randy Bell [02:20:36] This is teamwork you're sharing. I couldn't ever tell you what's best for any of you. I wouldn't do it.

Carah Burrell [02:20:44] Do it. Come on.

Randy Bell [02:20:44] No, I'm not going to take the bait because that's what dogmatic people. People do is tell others what they should do.

Carah Burrell [02:20:53] And

Randy Bell [02:20:55] that's a dogmatic road.

Carah Burrell [02:20:57] I don't want to hold on. I'm gonna drill down on something. Because what's the point of a God resurrecting and killing himself on a cross if there isn't a point to believing in him? What's the point of going through this whole rigmarole, Jesus, if there. If we don't need to do one or the other?

John Dehlin [02:21:11] I can answer for Andy. I can answer your question.

Carah Burrell [02:21:14] Okay. What?

Randy Bell [02:21:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:21:16] I think a Christian. I'm thinking my friend Paul Cardall. I'm thinking of my friend Chris Thomas. I think there's a lot of Christians that would argue, even Sean McCraney, that a belief in Jesus, a belief in a loving older brother, a belief in the morals and the principles, a role model who had a set of doctrines and theologies, it increases the probability that you're going to spend more of your time in your life being kind to others and serving others, or at least for some people.

Carah Burrell [02:21:49] But Jesus never said that's what he came to earth to do.

John Dehlin [02:21:53] Well, I mean, I.

Carah Burrell [02:21:54] He had a whole other. I just take the. I take Jesus's words of what he said. He came, you know, to bring this already. He came to, you know, atone for the sins of humanity. He came because of a necessity of needing to die and atone for humanity. He didn't just come to like, teach some good lessons and that was it. And then a lot of preachers would have done that. There were a lot of Jewish rabbis named Yeshua walking around that any one of them could done that. But it's the claims of what Jesus and the Bible and what Christians say that is the difference between what you just mentioned and like, I'm taking them out at their word of what the Bible is.

John Dehlin [02:22:25] I was thinking about this, Carah, because, you know, we. There's the, the gentleman that you've been corresponding with who did the Deseret book course on like, you know, being an anti racist and then. And then Deseret books, you know, scuttled. What, what was it?

Carah Burrell [02:22:43] James Jones.

John Dehlin [02:22:43] James Jones. And you were super. You're ready to flip A table.

Carah Burrell [02:22:46] I was ready to flip a table

John Dehlin [02:22:47] because some Mormon youtuber orthodox guy was basically saying wokeism's bad, anti racism is bad. And I'm worried that the Mormon church is, is leaning or flirting with. Don't worry, he dropped something to be

Carah Burrell [02:23:05] mad at, by the way. They dropped his course.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] But you were mad at him for, for sort of interpreting Christianity in a way that, that, that would say wokeism is bad. Correct.

Carah Burrell [02:23:19] I don't even like wokeism. There's plenty of problems with wokeism. You want to be. I'll talk about wokeism for an hour.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] Social justice.

Carah Burrell [02:23:26] I'll talk about, I'll talk about the good and bad of social justice. I'm just talking about people trying to, to combat systemic racism within the Mormon Church and labeling it the worst things in the world, labeling it Marxism, like using scare tactics to try to get at the root of people not addressing systemic issues because it makes them in their little like, white bubble, feel afraid. And so they have to shove off anything like that. That's what I'm afraid of. They're not using the best aspects of Jesus Christ. They're using the opposite.

John Dehlin [02:23:54] And so my response to that, but also my way of answering a question posed to Randy, not me, is that one of the defining characteristics of any religion is that it's broad enough and diverse enough and uncharitably self contradictory enough that you can literally justify any position within any religious system. So in Mormonism you can say, don't kill. And then in Mormonism you could say up if the spirit tells you you need to kill. And in Christianity you can say, love one another and be kind. And you can say, go to war. And in Christianity you can say, Jesus died for our sins. Or you can say, Jesus came to help us be better people and to serve the poor and the needy.

John Dehlin [02:24:36] And so, Carah, my, my answer to you on behalf of Randy is that there's no such thing as one Christianity. You could just, you could do a Randy did yesterday, which is to say, well, all those parts of the Bible I don't like, that's, they're, they're the opinions of men. And then the parts of the Bible that I like, that's cool, authentic Jesus. And that's not to diminish. I mean, that's just reality. That's not to diminish your theological positions. It's just to say there's no one Christianity, there's no one Jesus, there's no one Christology. It's, it's just, it's sort of like Whatever you choose to elevate as your Christology,

Randy Bell [02:25:18] excuse me, I think that's fair in large part. There's 1.2 billion Christians or some number like that. It's enormous. And so you're going to have 1.2 billion positions and opinions and on and on. And the thing I like about Christianity is, yeah, I found a spot that works for me that I think has some credence in terms of believing that it's not unreasonable where you see evidence of creation to believe that there's a creator. There's also academic literature we haven't even gotten into with post Traumatic growth. Calhoun, and I think his name is. I can't remember, it starts with a T. But out of North Carolina, where they've statistically shown that those who have a belief system in a God or a higher power fare better in processing trauma.

Randy Bell [02:26:12] And going to your point on Alcoholics Anonymous, which I know a little bit about, I've attended some meetings with friends who are. I want to be supportive of that. In fact, I just talked to a lady in Costa Rica a couple months ago who was, you know, had the alcoholic problem and she couldn't. She tried all kinds of avenues until she turned to God. According to her, she couldn't beat this demon, this disease of alcoholism. I'm not saying that applies to everyone, but there are. It's a very large, complex thing. And I can't. To answer your question in terms of how Christianity would benefit you, that's up to you.

Randy Bell [02:26:55] I'm not going to ever intrude into someone else's life and tell you what you ought to do, because that didn't work for me before. So just as you know, everybody's got to kind of sort this out for themselves. I just love the conversation because it's giving a lot of great information, primarily from the three of you, of different avenues and different ways to navigate this complex, messy stuff. And I think they're all valid. I don't think one's better than another. I'm just saying what's worked for me has worked really well for me.

Randy Bell [02:27:28] And that's not to say that I'll be someplace else a year from now, but that's the best I can do is just kind of answering those questions for myself.

Carah Burrell [02:27:36] I can't wait to hear what the comments have to say, though.

Randy Bell [02:27:39] Oh, I know people.

Carah Burrell [02:27:40] Be nice, be thoughtful. You know, those comments are going to be rough, but I'm excited to read

Randy Bell [02:27:46] them, you know, they are. And you're going to get some on all spectrums rough on all of us. I'm sure I'll be a target, but whatever.

Allan Mount [02:27:54] I have said not one word that could be criticized this entire time.

Randy Bell [02:27:58] Well, I know, but I have.

Allan Mount [02:28:00] I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

John Dehlin [02:28:02] Allan, any. Any final questions or comments you kind of want to make. Having settled into today's conversation, I'm curious. I want to make sure and give you a full chance to express.

Reflections on the Conversation and Closing Thoughts

Allan Mount [02:28:13] I appreciate that. Not really. I think, you know, if, if I truly came here to, to try to find something to help me. I've used the word folly a lot, so I won't this time to help me see that my line of thinking is aired or there's some way I could be looking at this differently

John Dehlin [02:28:37] at

Allan Mount [02:28:38] the current time where we're almost done. I haven't seen anything different. I'm not walking away from this conversation saying I really need to. To dig in there. So maybe my, my only question would be Randy, if like if there's any last you mentioned five books previously. We've talked about a few literatures and to be fair to your point, every time, not every time, but most of the time that we get back together you say have you had a chance to read X book? And every time I've said I haven't and life's busy and you don't hold that against me. But any. I would. The only question I would ask then is give me that one thing that I should.

Allan Mount [02:29:24] If I've got three hours over the course of three weeks probably to research or look into, what would it be like? What am I missing? What. What should I go. You've. You're speaking to my intellectual side big time in this, in this time together, I'm ready to repent of my ways of not reading what you've suggested. So out of everything that you would want me, John Carah. To go and dig into, what would it be?

Randy Bell [02:29:51] Well, the book that I found, if I'm going to pick one book, it would probably be Francis Collins, the Language of God because he approaches it from. I mean He's a PhD and an MD from Yale. He's not small potatoes. He's brilliant guy. And if you're curious and I'm not suggesting you need to read the book but if you want to just kind of see more insight of kind of seeing why I've landed where I've landed, I would probably suggest that book

John Dehlin [02:30:24] and

Randy Bell [02:30:24] I got a book in my. The book from the guy from University of Portland, Anthony Montebosco. I got that in my car I'm going to start reading that. Which is written by an atheist.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] I don't love that guy. What's his name? Carrie, you know who that is? The Difficult Conversations guy?

Carah Burrell [02:30:41] Peter Boghossian.

Randy Bell [02:30:42] Yeah. I got his book in the car and, you know, I'm curious about where he's coming from, but on the surface, I'm not excited about the guy either, but I'm curious about where he's landed, why he's landed where he's landed. So, I mean, this is just a really, in my mind, dynamic conversation because these are things that, you know, help us in the reconstruction process, because we've all been, you know, I know that when the ugly comments come through, I kind of. I don't want to say, write it off. I kind of attribute that to just we've been through a traumatic experience, all of us.

Randy Bell [02:31:18] And the anger and the, you know, demeaning and the name calling, that's more a function of unprocessed trauma, which we're all. I'm trying to process. I don't know about you guys, but I think in terms of deconstruction, I've kind of.

Randy Bell [02:31:33] I don't want to say I'm done with it because I still kind of enjoy the conversation there, too, but I'm more focused on construction, and I'm trying to construct things the best I can. Everyone here is, and I'm open to new tools, new materials, new dimensions, new blueprints as I want to keep constructing. That's kind of how I look at it, you know?

John Dehlin [02:31:58] Love it. I love it. Well, Allan, I'm super grateful that you would come. You. You know, I. I love your Tick Tocks because they're. What's your Tick Tock handle, by the way?

Allan Mount [02:32:12] At the time, it's still my name. A L, L, A N. Mount Allan Mount. I think they're forcing me to change it because they're not allowing full names.

John Dehlin [02:32:19] What?

Allan Mount [02:32:20] I got a notification that I have to change. Change my name. So it'll probably be Mount of a Man, because that's my Instagram handle.

John Dehlin [02:32:26] I didn't know they're making.

Allan Mount [02:32:27] I logged in last week and that's what I got, but right now, it is just my full name.

John Dehlin [02:32:31] All right, well, I want everyone to go check out Allan's TikTok because Allan's really smart, super wicked smart. He's also super funny and creative, and his Tik Tok is worthy of your time and attention, regardless of. If you're a believer, it'll help strengthen your. Help you figure out how to strengthen your beliefs. If you're not a believer, then you'll just find it to be funny and interesting and compelling and you'll learn a lot. But, Allan, you're one of my favorite humans, and so I'm really, really grateful you were willing to come on today and so graciously have a dignified and respectful conversation with our friend Randy.

Allan Mount [02:33:14] Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to not needing to spot you on the bench tomorrow. And Randy, thank you. I always love the conversation, and I leave the conversation loving you more than I did before, and no joke about it.

Randy Bell [02:33:28] Well, thanks, Allan. And I feel the same exact way. I really value our friendship hearts.

John Dehlin [02:33:37] And Randy, you know, I've. I stereotype believers as often just being unwilling to even engage in these conversations, let alone do it respectfully. And not only have you done that, but you've done it kind of three on one. Like, I didn't want this to be three on one, but in a sense, three of us are all kind of throwing the questions at you and you not only willing to be here, but you're willing to deal with that very respectfully and gracefully. And I just love what we're modeling here. But I think you're. For me, you're the hero of the hour if I had to pick one person. So thank you.

Randy Bell [02:34:17] Well, thanks for saying that, John. I just. Thanks for having this platform for this conversation. I think it's necessary for all of us who have been through something tough to kind of do our best and. And play nice. That's the number one rule, is play nice. We can have radically different points of view. And I've met people in the privileged state of affairs where I've been able to travel around and visit with people, and I'm just always impressed with those who just play nice, even though we come from very different backgrounds. And thanks for letting me share and thanks for your kind words.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Thank you. And Carrie, you just make everything more fun.

Carah Burrell [02:35:04] I know you guys are pretty fun and enjoyable. We had a good time.

John Dehlin [02:35:07] No, it's great to have you. Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:35:09] Yeah, I had a good time. I really like when we were going back to the discussion about, you know, the overlapping on the Venn diagram of the things we have in common. And I feel like. I mean, it's kind of cliche to say, like, ego, death, but I. I genuinely, like, don't really care that much if people believe in God or not. Same because.

Carah Burrell [02:35:28] Great, we all agree on that one. Because I care about the things that Randy cares about. About, like, fighting systemic abuse with. In, like, the church. When we were talking about Sam. What. Why is his name Sam Young? You know, things like that. Like the.

Carah Burrell [02:35:44] It takes the right kind of person to have this discussion and not have to, like, say, I'm right, you're wrong, because you're losing the actual thing that we could forward, which is the ideas around dismantling dogma, dismantling systems of abuse that leave people in places where their minds are subject to being overtaken, not being able to think critically and things like that. And so all of us have a thing in common called Mormon leaving Mormonism. And that's fine by me. Where people end up as long as they're, you know, forwarding the best ideals that benefit the most of humanity. So that's how I land on it.

Carah Burrell [02:36:26] So there's no, like, I hope nobody looks back at this discussion and thinks, like, oh, they should have said this. They should have owned Randy on this point. Just like, I just want to pick somebody's brain. But at the end of the day, like, Randy and me are for the same things, basically.

Randy Bell [02:36:39] So the core. I think the core values are pretty much identical for all of us. We get there in different ways. That's totally cool by me.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that's the Kumbaya summary. Like, we all value truth, we all value evidence, we all value kindness, we all value friendship, we all value fighting oppression, we all value social justice. We don't like bigotry, we don't like abuse. And. And we like healthy systems that make us all better, and we all share that. And whether we have a story or we don't, that fills in the gaps that matters. Less than 1%. What we should all do is unify around our shared values and not waste time or energy or harm relationships focusing on the minuscule differences.

Carah Burrell [02:37:33] Right. And I just want to add one last thing, is something that I really love is that we know that religion is going to be around forever. And if there is somebody who's like an LGBTQ ally in a Christian space that can, like, you're talking about with the website yesterday, Was it gay?

Randy Bell [02:37:48] Gay church.org shout out.

Carah Burrell [02:37:50] Yeah. Like, there's always going to be religions and people having spiritual experiences and religions trying to use those for their dogmatic purposes. And if there are people who are great allies in all these different ways that agree with a bunch of atheists on these subjects, I want a Christian who I agree with to be in those spaces as opposed to maybe Randy agreeing with us and Being like, fine, I'm an atheist now, like, he's out of that space and then that just forces that space to go even more in the dark or like even more dogmatic because there aren't people like Randy and others who are pushing for good progress in that space.

Carah Burrell [02:38:22] So I really applaud any Christian or anybody in whatever space it is. It didn't have to be religious who want to get to work within a community of people that they care about. And so whether that's Christian or that's the ex Mormon space, like, I always just encourage people to look at the spaces and the talents you have and analyze the bandwidth that you're capable of working with. But like, yeah, get to work and push forward the type of progress that you want to see. Let people know what you're for in this world and then push for it and work for it.

Randy Bell [02:38:46] Well, beautiful said. Yeah, man.

Allan Mount [02:38:48] Why there's. Does anyone else feel this? There's this warmth.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] Yeah. Almost as.

Carah Burrell [02:38:53] Allan, do you want to.

Allan Mount [02:38:54] Almost like a comforter. Oh, it may just be. Be the 24 ounces of coffee that

Carah Burrell [02:38:59] I drink, but it goes on your.

Allan Mount [02:39:01] Something feels good inside with whatever we're talking about.

Randy Bell [02:39:03] Be careful of that. Elevation, emotion.

Carah Burrell [02:39:05] So no God of the gaps fallacy in my.

Randy Bell [02:39:09] That was really beautifully said. Thanks.

Carah Burrell [02:39:11] Nope, thank you. I just, I always want to make sure that people know what I'm for instead of what I'm against because we can talk about the things that have harmed people in religion all day, every day, but it's always a good opportunity when we have the lights on and the mics on to say what we're for, what we were pushing for, the type of reform that we'd like to see. And with everything that's been said, I think Randy and all I, all of us have really agreed on a lot of fundamental things about what humanity should be pushing for.

Randy Bell [02:39:37] I think we've agreed on the really important stuff, you know, how we get there is our own personal journey. But that's just awesome. And I think in the construction process, because deconstruction, which is enormously important, at least for me, then you have to turn to what are you going to construct and how are you going to construct it? And I think it's really cool. Our blueprints look very largely the same and I love that.

Allan Mount [02:40:06] John.

Carah Burrell [02:40:07] Love it.

Allan Mount [02:40:07] Carah. Randy. There's a light hearted, dark side to all of this. We can love each other in our differences. You know what it is? Sports rivalries have completely lost their luster for me. I am the biggest.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] What? Yes, says the Dodger guy.

Allan Mount [02:40:21] I've got my Dodger socks on right here. And I have found myself hating the San Francisco Giants less because I think, well, of course you're a Giants fan. You were raised in Northern California. The same reason why I'm a Dodgers fan. That sucks. I want to hate people irrationally based on the sports teams that they follow. I don't want to like the USC Trojans because they're the dirty school in downtown la.

Randy Bell [02:40:42] The, you know, we were supposed to use clean language here and you just blew it out. I think we dir.

Allan Mount [02:40:48] What did I say?

Carah Burrell [02:40:48] What did we learn? Is that you're still a cult member. Because as you know, the telltale sign of a cult is someone who lets

Allan Mount [02:40:54] the puts it on their feet.

Carah Burrell [02:40:56] Underwear. That puts underwear.

Allan Mount [02:40:58] I do have my daughter garments on

John Dehlin [02:40:59] my legs slouch down as underwear.

Carah Burrell [02:41:01] Yeah, you wear it under things.

Allan Mount [02:41:02] Under a shoe.

Randy Bell [02:41:03] Yeah.

Allan Mount [02:41:04] Anyway, that's a lighthearted dark side is that I miss irrationally not liking people that enjoy certain sports teams.

John Dehlin [02:41:10] Allan Mount, bringing tribalism back.

Allan Mount [02:41:12] I'm trying, I'm trying.

Randy Bell [02:41:13] Well, you know you get higher ratings when you have a Jerry Springer.

Allan Mount [02:41:17] It's the Fox News approach, of course.

Randy Bell [02:41:19] But if we're going to get at real solutions, there's got to be looking for consensus and looking for common ground. You don't maybe get the ratings of Jerry Springer throwing furniture and all the craziness, but that's where we're going to get productive results.

Carah Burrell [02:41:35] Note to self, start throwing furniture at John to up readings.

Allan Mount [02:41:41] Flip the tables. That's more Christ. Like literally, truly.

Carah Burrell [02:41:44] Yeah, I'll just start pelting you with coins from over here.

Randy Bell [02:41:49] I love that story about Jesus, you know, flipping out over monetizing religion. And we see it every day now. It's worth flipping tables over, if I remember correctly.

Carah Burrell [02:41:58] Correct me if I'm wrong, I think there is a gigantic billion dollar mall across from Temple Square. Do I have that right? Does that sit well with me? No.

Allan Mount [02:42:06] It's a big table to flip home, John. We're off the rails.

Randy Bell [02:42:12] You know, I look forward, you know, I love so many aspects of my childhood religion. I look for the day where the pinnacle of Mormon worship is reaching out to marginalized people, feeding people that are hungry, giving something, you know, that thirsty people need, you know, clothes of the naked, more protection of children, more equality with women. That's the pinnacle of worship in my mind. I would love to see those big beautiful buildings converted to homeless shelters.

Randy Bell [02:42:47] I think we all would or to battered women's shelters to go into Nicole Brown Simpson's cause. That's the pinnacle of worship in my mind. And that's something that when I go into San Quentin prison, I'm sitting right next to an atheist who's volunteering as well. And frankly, she is far more proficient than I am.

Randy Bell [02:43:08] So we can all contribute to that. And that's what the pinnacle, whether you like the word worship or it's triggering, that's the pinnacle of purpose to life in my mind.

Carah Burrell [02:43:24] I was worshiping at that. Yeah, you said pinnacle of worship and I was like, hands in the air. Whatever you're preaching, I'm down with Randy.

Randy Bell [02:43:31] Yeah, I don't care how you get there.

Allan Mount [02:43:34] You know, I'll take the 405.

Carah Burrell [02:43:37] Don't take the 405. Take the 10 and travel it all the way up the Pacific.

Allan Mount [02:43:44] Are you quoting the Californians from snl? That's great, Stuart.

Carah Burrell [02:43:48] John is like, ready to wrap up.

Allan Mount [02:43:50] Oh, my gosh, I have to go

John Dehlin [02:43:51] to the bathroom so bad.

Allan Mount [02:43:54] Only three people know that I went in the middle of this podcast.

Randy Bell [02:43:58] I sat there looking at your chair just so the video came out better.

Allan Mount [02:44:02] That's great.

Carah Burrell [02:44:03] Only zero people.

Allan Mount [02:44:04] You have practice imagining that something that does not exist is actually there. I did my best practice with it.

John Dehlin [02:44:11] All right, well, I love this so much. I just wish it was my full time job. Oh, it is my full time job. Not to rub it in. You, you guys are amazing. Love you all and thanks so much for a great day. Randy, thanks for nine hours of wisdom and courage and vulnerability and come back again.

Randy Bell [02:44:35] Thanks, John, and thank you. And I just want to. I wasn't asked. This is just me. Throw a few bucks into this. We all benefit from this. I've benefited from what Allan and John Akira have said. Throw a few bucks in. Come on. The statistics of one in a thousand, we gotta. We need to step it up here.

John Dehlin [02:44:56] And if you are in a mixed faith marriage, check out marriage on a tightrope.org which is Allan and Katie Mount's amazing podcast and community because there's a Facebook community as well that's saving lots and lots and lots of families. So donate to Allan Mount.

Allan Mount [02:45:12] And honestly, the best way, if you're in a position that you want to donate, the best way is just to. For mixed faith couples is to allow us, with the help of Natasha Helford, to help you in your mixed faith marriage. We have a six week online course that we do with Natasha. The registration is open now. Marriage on a tightrope.thinkific.com on February 27th we're starting.

Allan Mount [02:45:34] We prefer the donations to go towards helping people. So if you're in need in your mixed faith marriage and not sure where to go to get help, that is a great place to start. If you're not in that situation but you like the idea of helping other mixed faith couples instead of just giving money to whoever you can. Venmo us at marriage on a tightrope with the note scholarship and all of those scholarships go towards couples that need to take that course as well. Thanks John for that opportunity.

John Dehlin [02:46:00] Yeah, and Carah's got that in the show notes already. So awesome. All right, you guys be good to each other. Love you guys. Thanks to all our listeners and viewers. Be good to each other. Thanks for your support. You know how to reach us. You know how to support us. Thanks again and we'll see you guys all again very soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.