Introduction and Guest Background

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Mark Juergensmeyer [00:00:32] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today, I'm very excited to have a special guest with us on Mormon Stories. His name is Dr. Mark Juergensmeyer. To read his bio, he is the Director of the Orphalia center for Global and International Studies and a professor of Sociology and global Studies and and affiliate professor of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is a pioneer in the field of global studies and writes on global religion, religious violence, conflict resolution, and South Asian religion and politics. He has published more than 300 articles and 20 books, including the recent Global Rebellion, Religious Challenges to the Secular State, and the reason why we're interviewing him is because today in my Facebook feed, an article came up from the good people free BYU.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] And the article basically says prominent scholar, which, which Dr. Juergensmeyer certainly is, boycotts BYU laws annual religious freedom conference in protest over BYU's religious discrimination. So Dr. Jurgensmaier, welcome to Mormon Stories. Thank you for having me and thanks for making time for us. So real quick, let's just start with your background. I was reading through your background and it's really, really impressive. But just tell us a bit about who you are and kind of where you come from and what led to your kind of work in religious studies.

Mark Juergensmeyer on Studying Global Religion

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:02:07] Oh, I'm a sociologist of religion, but the global religion. So I work on issues of religion and politics around the world and I'm particularly interested in the rise of religious nationalism, religious violence in an era of globalization. I have a religious past myself. I was trained in seminary. I'm a member of a Christian church, and so I don't have anything against religion. Sure, some ways I'm a religious groupie. I admire religious traditions around the world and all people of faith to me are special and deserve respect and deserve the rights that everyone has, particularly in terms of freedom of religion. So I was particularly keen to take part in this conference, part of a center that is devoted to issues of religious freedom.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:02:59] Very concerned about that. It's one of the hallmarks of what they do. And so I was glad to take part and particularly with colleagues who were at BYU that I admire and appreciate and respect and with other colleagues who were going to be at the conference. And I had been invited last year and then just didn't work out because of my schedule. And even this year I was in New York last weekend. I have to be in New York again this weekend. I have to teach on Monday and Wednesday. So I could only be there one day.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:03:29] And we worked it out. And I. I feel very apologetic to the organizers that my withdrawing, I'm sure created some difficulty in canceling airplane reservations and hotel reservations. And I'm apologetic for that. I feel badly that that's the case. But in good conscience, when I found out about this policy of expelling any student, Mormon student, for questioning their faith or converting to another religious tradition, this seems such a violation of religious freedom that in conscience I simply couldn't take part in a conference that was sponsored an institution that would have such a policy.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Have you bumped into Mormons over the years just in your sort of scholarly or day to day interactions?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:04:13] Sure. You know the old cliche, some of my best friends are Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Talk a little bit about your interactions with Mormonism prior to this.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:04:21] Private Mormon students and friends with them, not just students, admire them as persons and I admire their commitment to the faith. I've had a couple students who've been on mission and one of them came back even more fervent in his faith and in my class on global religion where I invite our local Mormon missionaries to come to class and we talk with them. And it was a wonderful interaction with them.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:04:51] On one case, the student who had been a former missionary himself then joined the discussion and talked about his own experiences going on mission and how meaningful it was to him. Another student who had been on mission came back and had the opposite experience and decided that we really couldn't in good faith be part of the church and hold the beliefs that he no longer believed. And I supported him in his decision.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:05:18] Religion is such an intimately personal thing and belief is just that. It's belief. It's whatever kind of structure in the imagination one holds to, to give meaning and dignity to life. So I have no quarrel with the idea of it. But I also understand and appreciate that people would challenge the received belief, the received faith that they've gotten. And in my mind, no faith is really worth it without being challenged until one makes it one's own. One makes one's understanding of the central realities of Life and of faith in a way that is. Resonates with the truth of one's own experience. So I believe in religious freedom for that reason.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:06:07] And it's sad to me to see religious freedom restricted, particularly at an institution of higher education that should be devoted. All institutions of higher education should be devoted to free inquiry and the challenges to the mind and the ability of students to reconsider themselves in the light of these challenges. That's what a university is all about.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Sure, sure. So it sounds like you've had positive interactions with Mormons over the years.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:06:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] And as you, as you sort of think about the LDS Church in general, it sounds like you have pretty favorable opinions about the church. True, sure.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:06:44] All religious traditions, you know, I think that you can, you can say, oh, well, that's not, not really true. Well, what's really true, I mean, all belief, as I say, just is, is belief. And I don't mean to say just belief. I almost said that, but I didn' mean that in the sense that it's all. It's a meaningful structure of reality that people have enter into with the sense that it resonates with what is deep and true to themselves. And it comes in varied forms, just like language or art or music comes in various forms. And I appreciate all of them.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Now, some people, you know, when I posted your article, one of the most common responses is, look, BYU is a private university. It's a private religious university. Everyone who signs up to go there signs an honor code that basically commits that if they're believing lds, that they'll attend church and maintain their faith. And so in some sense, people say two things that anyone who loses their faith kind of knew the deal when they signed up for it. And a private religious institution has the right to do whatever they're going to do. How would you respond to those two arguments in response to your, you know, your position today?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:08:05] Well, it's a university. It's not a Sunday school, it's not a seminary. It's not an adjunct of the church in the sense that it's created for solely spiritual and doctrinal reasons. If a university is a university, it's a university.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:08:21] And so universities are by nature and institutions that are open to free inquiry and encourage it and allow and encourage people to, to deal with the consequences of free inquiry in terms of their own personal lives. And I know there have been legal issues and legal rulings that have affirmed the university's position.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:08:48] That makes no difference to me. I mean, discrimination, whether it's legally ruled is Permissible is still discrimination. And I think it has no room in the university. I firmly. I'm a firm believer in the freedom of speech and free inquiry, and I love the church, but I also love the university. And as someone who's worked in the university for all of my adult life, over 40 years, it's an institution that I cherish and it's so important for society, society, particularly in the era of the kind of energy, Internet and the ubiquity of media that seems to challenge freedom of speech by the most strident and narrow of messages on all sides.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:09:41] It's so important for the university to be a bastion of free speech, to allow for free inquiry, and to see that challenged or sullied in any way is disturbing to me as somebody who feels strongly about the commitment of the university, of the academic community to free inquiry.

John Dehlin [00:09:59] Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. So it sounds like you had agreed to attend. Had you agreed to speak at this event particularly?

The BYU Boycott and Religious Discrimination

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:10:10] Yes, yes, I would be on a panel.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] That must have been super hard to kind of make this decision so close after those commitments had been made. Oftentimes when I talk, yes, I feel

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:10:22] very badly for the organizers. As I said. I mean no, no disrespect to them and I'm terribly apologetic. If I had known about this policy earlier, I would have obviously made this decision long ago. But as soon as I received the news about it, of course I thought about it. I did some investigation to make sure that what they said was in fact accurate, that the church intact, I mean, the BYU in fact had this policy. And so I took a couple hours to do this, but then clearly I knew I had to make the decision

John Dehlin [00:10:53] not to intend sometimes, you know, so the LDS Church makes various sort of scientific truth claims, you know, about the, you know, ancient America or about, you know, this, this piece of scripture called the Book of Abraham. And oftentimes people who are struggling in their faith try and go to those professors and say, hey, will you comment, you know, non Mormon professor, will you comment on the archaeology of Latin America or where you comment on, you know, Egyptian, you know, interpretations of a particular text? And oftentimes professors are really hesitant to want to go on the record in any way that would challenge a religion or make a church look bad.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] They'd rather just sort of stay silent. And so I'm just wondering what is it about your background or your perspectives that said, you know what, I may catch some heat for this, but I'm willing to speak out even if there might be some risks. I'M not. I don't know if there'll be any risks. But, I mean, a lot of professors seem to worry that somehow their ability to get articles published or their reputation or their ability to get a grant or whatever could be negatively influenced by speaking out against a particular institution, especially one with power.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:12:06] Yeah, well, fortunately, at this point in my career, there's nothing I want or could possibly try to achieve that I haven't already gotten or achieved. So for me, that's not an issue.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Can you sympathize with those concerns?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:12:23] Well, yes, but I mean, the example I gave is a little bit different. I think it's one thing for a professor to be very sensitive to religious belief. And, you know, if a student came to me and said, you know, I was taught in the Catholic Church that the virgin birth and also that the water and wine at the time of communion turns into the real body and blood of Jesus, what do you think?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:12:45] Well, I mean, I could tell them as an individual what I think, but as somebody who is a professor of religion, I would like to present a whole range of religious beliefs and religious doctrine and dogma. But to get into a scientific investigation of it may not be appropriate for a professor of religious studies, for example, if I were in a different kind of class, in a biology class, for example, maybe that would be more appropriate for a professor to comment on that. So I can understand their reluctance simply in their role, because one plays different roles in different disciplines within academia, and one should speak to the kind of knowledge that one is trying to impart and the kind of inquiry and analytic judgment that one is trying to bring to a particular subject.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:13:47] But the issue of expelling students because they switched is not a matter of questioning their dogma. It's really a matter of freedom of belief. And to me, that's really quite shocking that a student would be expelled from an academic institution. They could be expelled from a church. I can understand that. I have no quarrels with that. Churches should be able to expel people for whatever reasons they want to expel people, that's their business.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:14:20] But not from a university, because the university is different. University is a social institution in our society that's dedicated to free inquiry and clear critical thinking, and it should let the chips fall where they may. And so I feel very strongly about that.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] You mentioned in your letter particularly being concerned that non Mormons can convert to Mormonism while at byu, and that's fine, but Mormons can't convert away.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:14:47] Right. And I'm sure that if, you know, in Some other country. If it was a Muslim country, for example, in a university in Saudi Arabia or in Pakistan, and a student converted to a Muslim student, converted to the Mormon faith, and then was kicked out of the university, I'm sure that administrators at BYU would be disturbed and would regard this as an affront to religious freedom. And they'd be right. But how could they be so blind not to see that their own policies are doing exactly the same thing?

John Dehlin [00:15:23] You know, something that I feel is that Google and the Internet has really changed organized religion in the Western world in the sense that it's changed all

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:15:33] of our lives in a very profound way.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Yeah. And I think. I think there's a lot of Mormons and a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses and a lot of Scientologists and others who were raised with a certain narrative of our church's history that was maybe whitewashed so that, you know, people would. Would want to believe and be loyal to the church. And then when they discover this information, they start to doubt and question. But oftentimes these doubts and questions are like a virus. They're contagious and they spread. My guess is what. What the church doesn't want is students doubting and questioning at.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Because then it spreads to other students, and all of a sudden you have an outbreak, you have an epidemic. Can you empathize with the church's concern that these doubts and questions, you know, are undermining Christian religions all throughout the Western world, that they don't want sort of that wildfire of doubt and disbelief spreading at their sort of own, you know, religious university?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:16:33] Well, I can understand this is a parental concern, but that doesn't say much about their conviction of the truth of their own belief, does it? I mean, if they say, if it's put into the kind of the marketplace of free expression, then suddenly people will.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:16:51] People will be challenged and want to change. That's rather disturbing. If that were the case, you may very well be right. But that's the risk you take when you have a university. If you don't want people to go to university, if you want to contain them within some sort of religious school that is not accredited, that's not a part of the academic community that's devoted to the free inquiry and free expression of beliefs, well, that's your business. You could have that kind of insular society.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:17:28] But if you're going to create a university and then you're going to open yourself up for the free inquiry and the consequences of that inquiry, there's just

John Dehlin [00:17:36] no way around it sort of. Sort of my last kind of questions. I know you got to go soon. In 2015, you know, we've seen the Pew foundation release this report, the Rise of the Nuns. I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:17:51] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] That over a fifth of the United States now no longer affiliates. Oh, go ahead.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:17:57] And you're talking about the N O, N E. That's right. Not the ones on the bus.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] That's right. Not the ones with the habits. Right. Yeah. And so over 20% of the United States no longer affiliates with the religious tradition, and over one third of millennials are no longer affiliating with any religious tradition. I've studied post Mormons and former Mormons, and well, over half of those who leave the LDS Church end up becoming agnostic or atheists. You know, for many of us who are struggling to sort of maintain any religious belief, not just in Joseph Smith of the Book of Mormon, but in God or Jesus or any faith, you know, what would you say to someone who's in that position? You know, you could say, hang on. You could say, try a different church. You could say, God bless you. As a secular person, what counsel or advice would you give a struggling formerly religious person who's trying to figure out where to go in their life?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:18:56] Well, I think it's good that people struggle, struggle with ideas of faith, with identity, with their kind of location within the cosmos. This is a sign of maturation and of growing. I don't have any problems with that. And one of the things that interests me about the Father, what if they

John Dehlin [00:19:12] doubt God or Jesus?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:19:13] Well, one of the interesting things about the Nones, as you put it, as I understand it, this is a list of options. You can choose. Are you practicing this? That. Are you atheist? Are you agnostic? That's also on the list. And then there's none. And these are people who choose none. Not atheist, they're not agnostic, but they're also not a member of some institutional religion. And when you talk to them, I actually have a graduate student doing work on the religion of the Nones on exactly this issue.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:19:43] When you talk with them, you'll find them commonly say, well, I'm spiritual, I'm not religious. And what does that mean? Well, I think in many cases it means that they do have a sense of religiosity. They do have a sense of spiritual depth. They do have a sense about the wonder of the universe. They do have a sense of a connection between something greater than they are. They do have a sense that the world is profound and interesting and not a capricious or random place, that there is meaning to it. And all of these are essential religious sentiments. So I think in a funny kind of way, maybe this has to do with an era of globalization and multiculturalism where we're all kind of pushed and shoved next to people of other traditions and we realize suddenly he.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:20:29] We can't all be right, or we can't all be right in a very narrow way. There must be something profoundly similar about all of these things. So I'm really quite optimistic. I find this a very positive direction. I think there is a sense in which we are beginning to share as common people on this planet a common spirituality and a common religiosity and a common moral commitment to be responsible citizens on planet Earth and are free from any kind of institution, institutional constraints in order to express it.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:21:05] At the same time, I continue to be a committed member of a particular church and the Episcopal Church, and I'm a faithful member of the church and I go through all the rituals and I say the creeds and how can you, you know, if you believe what you say about a kind of common religiosity, how can you say that you believe in the resurrection and the virgin birth? And I said, well, I take this all as a kind of symbolic expression of, of something that's meaningful and rich in life. I don't want to. I'm not trying to say that this is going to stand up against scientific scrutiny.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:21:37] That's not the point. The point is to speak in the kind of metaphorical and beautiful and artistic language that religion gives us about what is meaningful in the world. And if you don't find that metaphorical and artistic language meaningful or working for you, from my point of view, that's fine. Find whatever expresses the kind of richness and depth in life in your own terms terms. So I feel good about the way in which we are moving as a community on this planet. And I don't fear the kind of challenges to traditional faith.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] There is a certain subgroup of Mormons that are trying to encourage this sort of non literal, symbolic, metaphorical participation. And right now, you know, as at least partly evidenced by my own excommunication, it seems as though the church isn't really happy or supportive of that type of approach. And so I think there's a lot

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:22:37] of people, sure, there are struggles within every religious tradition over exactly the kind of literalism versus the more metaphorical understanding of religious symbols and language that happens in every religious tradition. I went to seminary, but the Seminary I went to was Union Seminary in New York City, which was founded by a group of faculty who had been kicked out of the Presbyterian Church. This is the end of the 19th century.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:23:04] They were biblical scholars who had been kicked out of the Presbyterian Church because they dared to suggest that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, the Pentateuch, were not all written by Moses. You know, that was the kind of the church's belief. And they pointed out that these, you know, within the first five books, the books talk about Moses own death. So it's quite unlikely it would have been written by Moses. But that wasn't enough for the church, and they kicked him out.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:23:32] And so this has been a tension within all religious traditions. And our seminary very proudly was devoted to free inquiry of religious expression in addition to the training of the ministry. And it felt that the training of the ministry, for the training of the ministry, free expression of religious ideas and inquiry was absolutely essential. It made the faith stronger.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:23:56] So I think, unfortunate that the leaders of the church don't recognize this really profound insight that only when faith is tested does it become solid in a way that really will make the church stronger. And so this inquiry really, I think, should not be something to be feared, but something to be welcomed and appreciated for the continuing strength of the church.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] And yet isn't. Isn't Christianity sort of in decline outside of Catholicism, sort of in the Western world because of these doubts and questions?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:24:28] Well, sure, but I mean, I think throughout the world there is. There are some challenges to the narrowness of belief because of multiculturalism and because of the global era in which we live. But as I say, I think this is being supplanted with a kind of. Of the religion of nuns, the kind of specific spirituality.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:24:53] But as that happens, I think it's also understandable that the fear of the traditional defenders of the faith, whether they're Muslim or Buddhist or. And I just came back from Myanmar, where the Buddhist monks are just incensed of the changes in Myanmar and feel like the small little Muslim community is challenging.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:25:17] And so they're trying to create a strident new defense of Buddhism. So these defenders of traditional religion exist in every religious tradition, particularly in the era of globalization where we feel such challenges. And as, on the one hand, society becomes more liberal, more accepting of the diversity of faith and the diversity of symbolic expression of faith and the kind of unity of belief that is beyond this kind of dogmatic specificity, it's understandable that the old defenders, the defenders of the old traditions would become even more hard and even more fearful of the changes that are coming about. But I think that's a pity because I think, in fact it will make faith stronger rather than weaker in the future.

Advice for Those Doubting or Leaving Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:26:08] So for those doubting or struggling or leaving Mormonism, do you take the step to encourage them to retain some type of faith or spirituality? Do you think that's important?

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:26:18] I think they should find what's important for themselves. I don't think anybody can tell you what to believe or how to believe. And I certainly don't think it's the role of professors to provide that kind of guidance. I think our role is simply to encourage people to be open critical thinkers, but be open to the value of religious traditions. I certainly don't. When I teach global religions and I teach about religious traditions, I do very respectfully.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:26:54] And students will come up to me and say, you know, when you gave that lecture on Islam, I thought you were a Muslim, but now you're talking about Buddhism and I think you're a Buddhist. And I that's great because I want you to understand how these religious traditions, even though they may beliefs may seem wacky from an outsider, but how meaningful they are to people within the tradition. So I'm very respectful of the Mormon tradition and very I think we should cherish the way in which those beliefs in that community has been such a rock and been so meaningful to so many different people.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:27:33] But if you're within it and it doesn't feel right for you, then I admire your questioning. I admire your kind of thinking about yourself and your relationship to the tradition of which you've been a part of. It's all good.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:27:50] So we need to encourage open inquiry, but at the same time recognize the value of faith traditions and the kind of vitality they've given life.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Well, Dr. Mark Jurgensmaier, I just want you to know as a cultural Mormon, I've observed that the LDS Church pays most attention to sort of external critics and media. And so as someone who wants to see the church move in the right direction, as someone who's a graduate of BYU and cares about that institution, I just want you to know I believe that you speaking openly is going to have a very positive impact in the long run. And as a cultural Mormon, I just want to thank you for your courage and willingness to speak out because it actually makes a big difference to my people. And I just want to thank you on behalf of them.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:28:39] Well, thank you. Delighted to be show my support for you for the Mormon faith and for the freedom of inquiry.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] All right. The website is juergensmeyer.org I won't bother to spell it here, but you can find it on mormonstories.org again. Dr. Jurgensmaier, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. Take care.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:28:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] All right, Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

Mark Juergensmeyer [00:29:19] Cease to make me whole

John Dehlin [00:29:27] when with the wounded heart and anger or malice I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.