Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1066

Guest [00:00:01] One.

Guest [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Guest [00:00:42] One Life to Live Mind the time.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 6, 2019 and as usual, we could not be more excited for today's interview. Just to give you a little bit of background, recently I had a donor and a listener come to me who donated a bunch of his writings to mormonstories.org he is an amateur historian and he wrote up a bunch of essays on Mormonism that helped him process his own crisis of faith and the aftermath. And so if you go to mormonstories.org Truth claims you can see this text that's been up and what this donation did is it jump started a new interest, a renewed interest in Mormon Stories podcast on issues around the truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] So what we've done is this donor also donated $20,000 to a billboard campaign for 2019. And so what we are doing is one of the major emphases for Mormon Stories over the next year or two will be the truth claims. And and we've got a billboard campaign going where each month we're putting up a new billboard that makes a statement or asks a question about Mormon truth claims. And the current billboard that's up says something to the effect of was Joseph Smith the treasure Digger? And last month, of course on Mormon Stories podcast, you will be able to review several episodes that we did on on the issue of treasure digging.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] This includes our interview with Kathleen Malonakis, our interview with John Hamer, and our interview with historian Dan Bogle, all of them being about treasure digging. So that by the end of the month we will have had a billboard, an edited curated essay, and a series of interviews on the topic of treasure digging. And we're gonna try and rinse and repeat every month. So this upcoming month is going to be on the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon's authorship. And for those who have been following Mormon stories very closely, we have already interviewed preeminent Joseph Smith scholar Dan Vogel on the Book of Mormon We've also interviewed John Hamer on the cultural context that informs the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] And today we are continuing our discussion on the Book of Mormon again with preeminent Joseph Smith scholar Dan Vogel. He's joining us from his home in Ohio. And I'm broadcasting live from Mormon Stories studios in Salt Lake City, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] So even though we've already interviewed Dan Vogel on the Book of Mormon and we did a good three hours on that, I think there still remains a lot of questions about the Book of Mormon and topics to discuss.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] So today for the next three to four hours, we're going to be interviewing Dan Vogel, more about the Book of Mormon. But what's exciting is I'm back. I'm not in Ohio anymore. I'm back in my office and I'm going to be able to take your live questions about the Book of Mormon as live viewers join us. And we've got some live viewers already joining us. Shout out to Rodney, to Margo, to Stephen and everyone else who's joined us already live on our Facebook stream. We hope others, Jennifer and Pete and others, we hope others will join us as the day progresses as we dig in.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] And we welcome your questions and comments during the interview. And so that's what today's going to be about. I have a couple really quick announcements just to make and then I'll introduce our guests. Reintroduce our guest. As far as the billboard goes, we do need support to continue the billboard campaign. We don't need to continue the billboard campaign.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] We want next week's billboard to be next month's billboard to say something to the effect of did Joseph Smith write the Book of Mormon question mark or how was the Book of Mormon created question mark? It's going to be a billboard that sort of says something like that along with the book with the Mormon Stories logo. If you guys want this billboard campaign to continue, we're going to need donations to make that happen.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] Want to make sure everyone understands that 100% of your billboard donations go to the billboard. There'll be no overhead, nothing taken out. It's a direct one to one donation ratio. It costs $5,800 a month to put a billboard up where we're putting it in Salt Lake City on 3200 south facing South on the right hand side. So if you're driving north around 3200 south on the right hand side, you'll see this billboard again around 3200 South. So if you guys want to see this billboard campaign continue, go to MormonStories.org Billboard make your donation. It's tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances, and 100% of your billboard donations go to the billboard.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] That's just the plea for that. The other thing I just want to mention is we are super excited to be relaunching our workshops and retreats, our Mormon Faith Crisis workshops and retreats for 2019. And we now have dates for several locations.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] So I just want to announce those really quick. For those of you who don't know, obviously going through a Mormon faith crisis can be very traumatic. It can affect your marriage, it can affect your family relationships, it can affect your children, it can affect your friendships, your community, your job, your mental health. And so, based on your demand and your interest, for several years we've been hosting these workshops and retreats to support people in the faith crisis. It's the main reason I pursued my PhD so that I could be qualified and so that I could study in depth what it is to go through a faith crisis from a mental health perspective and then to counsel people and support people on that journey.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] Well, we're excited to announce some new workshop and retreat dates and locations, and I'm going to just tell you those right now. I'll give you a quick disclaimer. These events are not put on by the Open Stories Foundation. They are put on separately in a joint partnership between my wife, Margi and Natasha Helfer Parker, who many of you know.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] So it's just important that we mention that this isn't an Open Stories or Mormon Stories thing. However, I have permission from the board to discuss these as long as I make it clear that it's not an Open Stories foundation or Mormon Stories venture. So these are the dates. If you're in Salt Lake City, February 13th at 7:00pm at Community of Christ. I will be giving a free lecture on navigating a faith crisis from 7 to 10pm we would love you guys to attend if you can. Again, that's 7 to 10pm Community of Christ building in Salt Lake City. Free lecture on navigating a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] We're going to be doing a workshop in Orem, Utah, February 15th and 16th. We're coming to Vegas. February 22nd to 23rd. We're coming to Ogden. March 8th and 9th. We're going to do a mixed faith marriage retreat in April 12th to 14th in Salt Lake City. We're coming to Gilbert, Arizona, May 3rd through 5th. We're going to do a retreat in park city for everyone June 7th to 9th. We're doing a Faith Crisis Europe retreat in Switzerland. It's going to be a beautiful event. There's going to be childcare for your kids. There's going to be food, room and board, super cheap excursions in a beautiful part of Switzerland.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] This is something that the people in Europe and the people in Switzerland organized June 21st, 23rd. We would love to have you there. You can check the mormonfaithcrisis.com events webpage for more details on that. We're coming to Colorado August 9th 11th, Southern California, September 20th, 22nd, and we're going to do another mixed faith retreat in November 1st through 3rd.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] All of these events you can check the details out on@mormonfaithcrisis.com events. Right now we're finishing that calendar. It should be up in the next day or two. And you can register, you can already register now for the Orem event February 15th and 16th. If you're in town for that, you can go there now and register for that. But within the next day or two, you'll be able to register for all these events. These events are always rated 4.9 out of 5. We keep the cost super low.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] It's usually the cost of one hour of therapy for a day and a half of support and community. And we don't do this with monetary motives. We do this purely to support people in their faith crisis, to prevent divorces, to prevent familial strife, to increase mental health and awareness. So again, it's not part of the Open Stories foundation, But go to mormonfaithcrisis.com events for registration for these events. And that's all the announcements that I have for today.

Welcoming Dan Vogel Back to Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Without any further ado, we want to welcome all the people that are joining us live on Facebook. Paul writes, I love that you do these retreat speeches, John. Thanks, Paul. Let's see. Eric writes, I attended a retreat in Fort Collins, Colorado, and it was well worth the time. I have new friends that I keep in contact with. Thanks, Eric, for the endorsement.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Penny's excited about our discussion of the Book of Mormon. Beth says good morning, et cetera, et cetera. All right. Oh, and Cody Layton, my production manager, is a surprise that I made it into the office. There was this huge snowstorm last night and the roads were treacherous, but yes, I made it in. Shout out to Cody and thanks to Cody for checking in and Emily and everyone else who's joining us live. All right, so without any further ado, thanks for your patience. We have back with us today on Mormon Stories podcast, preeminent Joseph Smith scholar Dan Vogel. Dan, I would just want to quickly ask you how you're feeling about that first interview.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] I just want to say that I've had several people reach out and say it's one of the most important interviews I've ever done on Mormon stories. We saw the resale value of your book since your book, Joseph the Making of a Profit, I think it's called.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] It's no longer in print, but we saw the used version selling for somewhere up to 8 or 900 or 1000 bucks apiece after we did the interview. I don't know if that settled down. There is a free version of Dan Vogel's book on the Signature website. So if you just write Dan Bogle Signature books, Joseph Smith, you'll be able to get to that free version, online version of the book. I'm guessing it was Tom Kimball that made that happen way back in the day, but.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] Yeah, but the demand for your book has skyrocketed, and I think the interest in your scholarship, I can probably safely say has skyrocketed. Dan, quickly share with us what. What you've seen is the reaction to your amazing interview with us.

Dan Vogel [00:12:19] Well, I'm shocked that the book is worth that much. I mean, I don't know how they determine that, but I had no idea that it would be that high, and I don't know why. So I guess that's a good thing, I think. I hope maybe people can access the online version. It's not quite the same. I like the idea of maybe putting out a Kindle version. I like that idea a lot.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] And by the way, I talked to the Signature books folks. I think it was Ron who responded very graciously, and he said, they're definitely working on an audiobook for your book and any book as well. Those are both things that they're working on in the next year, as I understand it. Is that your understanding?

Dan Vogel [00:13:12] They don't consult with me on those kinds of things. So, yeah, I'm just mostly deep into my next project, really, which is.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Tell us really quickly what that is.

Dan Vogel [00:13:26] The biography of Joseph Smith after he leaves New York in Ohio and Missouri up to 1839. And that will be in the series, Smith Pettit foundation series, where Richard Van Wagener wrote the first part on New York. And Margaret. What did she go by now? Anyway, she did Margaret Toscano. Who? No, here, hold on a second. Martha Bradley.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Martha Bradley Evans. Oh, okay. She's great.

Dan Vogel [00:14:10] Yeah. Professor at BYU and feminist historian. And she did the Nauvoo Period Glorious in persecution. So mine will be in the middle.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Okay. And does that mean you'll eventually do a book on Nauvoo as well? Possibly.

Dan Vogel [00:14:38] Well, that would be my next natural thing to do, I think.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] Awesome. Okay.

Dan Vogel [00:14:43] I can only think of what I'm doing. I have two years left on my contract to produce the book. I'm in the midst of writing it right now. I spent two years of researching, preparing for it, including reading all of the Joseph Smith papers and keeping notes. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm busily writing the first parts of it. So I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] You anticipate that book has a chance of being released when?

Dan Vogel [00:15:16] Oh, probably two to three years.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Okay, cool. Well, that'll be super exciting.

Dan Vogel [00:15:23] So what was I supposed to answer?

John Dehlin [00:15:26] Yeah, what's the response been? Has anybody reached out and said anything nice or kind?

Dan Vogel [00:15:34] I'm kind of overwhelmed by some of the kind comments that people have made. I'm glad that I can help and share my passion with so many people all at once. So I'm pretty happy. I'm pretty happy that people want to hear what I have to say. I'll do my best.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] You know, I didn't really know you super well before I hung out in your house for a day. One of the clear impressions I got just from a personal perspective is just how intrinsically motivated you are as a historian, because, you know, I felt a lot of guilt and shame that I hadn't had you on Mormon stories earlier, that I had talked all about rough stone rolling, but not about your amazing biography.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] And I kind of tried to explore a little bit whether you were kind of sad about that or upset about that, or you were feeling as if Bushman got way too much attention and you didn't. And I was impressed with how unconcerned you were about all that and how you were just.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] You had kind of a very long view in the sense of feeling like you knew that truth would win out at the end of the day, and you were committed to doing the basic research over the long haul just because you loved it and believed in it and cared about it, and you didn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about popularity or attention. And that was impressive to me.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] And it basically explains why you've been able to be such a successful and dogged researcher for so long and published. Didn't we say 18 books so far?

Dan Vogel [00:17:25] Something like that?

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Yeah. But that's kind of you, isn't it?

Dan Vogel [00:17:33] Yeah, I'm pretty happy being behind the scenes and just researching and writing. So one thing I did get from my father was when I was very young and I was more into Mormon apologetics really and I would be describing these arguments from a believer point of view. My dad said you shouldn't worry about whether being a pro or a con, you should just worry about finding the truth and just find it and write about that.

Dan Vogel [00:18:07] And so that's sort of my point of view on things. I get the reward when I'm researching and writing and I discover things to my satisfaction and in writing them is a way of organizing my thoughts and motivating myself to push forward and to keep going forward and discovering new things. So discovery is what, you know, I might, you might say I'm addicted to discovery and the rush you get and though by those kinds of things. So it's a very day. That's how I get my daily reward that because if you're looking for a reward as a writer, you're gonna be waiting a long time to get to get a book out and you get praise or whatever happens because it's a mixed thing, praise and criticism.

Dan Vogel [00:19:06] But you have to be open to criticism too. A legitimate criticism. You should not fear so and I don't because you know, I have everything to gain and nothing to lose by this whole, whole proposition.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] And something I don't think we covered in our interview is what kind of what your, what your other part time job is. So part time, you know, you've been, you know, receiving some support for writing these books probably from the Smith. What this, the Smith Pettit.

Dan Vogel [00:19:46] What is the Smith Pettit foundation foundation signature books. Sometimes it's been royalties mostly early on and then I got asked to do it by where I get paid up front instead of by royalties. So I bet I've managed over the years to balance, you know, my writing at which I feel very fortunate that I've been able to write and sustain myself and work a part time job and make it all work and tell

John Dehlin [00:20:29] everyone what your other part time job is if you're comfortable sharing.

Dan Vogel [00:20:33] Well, I just work in a grocery store as a regular clerk.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] That's awesome. Well, that's amazing. And in our private discussions you told me that it's kind of important for you to have, I don't know, I'll call it just a brain dead job where you're not super intellectually rigorously challenged. Talk about that.

Dan Vogel [00:20:57] Well, I was trying to become a teacher actually in the university. I took courses so that I could teach social studies in High school, which, you know, I can. I took psychology, sociology, geography, you know, economics, US History was my major,

Guest [00:21:24] so.

Dan Vogel [00:21:24] And then I got. I did enough courses to minor in psychology, except I never did the part requirement on statistics because I hate math, so. But I took enough courses to qualify for a minor if I had completed the statistics course, which I didn't want to take.

Dan Vogel [00:21:53] And all the time I was researching or writing on Mormon history. And I published my first book when I was a senior in the university. The Indian origin book. Yeah, when I was a senior. So I changed my mind on teaching mostly because it seemed like a very brain drain.

Dan Vogel [00:22:20] A brain drain. So I didn't want to do that because I wanted to research and write really. And while I was going through college, I worked several different jobs, but part of, part of the way I worked or most of the way probably I worked in the grocery store.

Dan Vogel [00:22:38] And when my wife and I got married, when we moved off, well, we took off to Chicago. She had a job opportunity there and. And then we were there for 10 months and then we came to Columbus. And in Columbus, Ohio, we only had one car, so I had to walk to work and the closest thing was a grocery store. And I knew I could get that job easy, so that's what I did. I got that job and I stuck with it part time and writing.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] That's awesome. Well, there's so much we could talk about, but what we've decided is we're going to try and have you on at least a few hours a month for the next several months as we talk about the first vision, as you talk about the Book of Abraham, as we talk about the priesthood restoration, any of the topics where we need a deep dive from a top notch Joseph Smith historian. We're going to bring you back. So we're not going to try and boil the ocean. In today's interview. We're going to focus on questions we didn't ask about the Book of Mormon. Is that okay?

Dan Vogel [00:23:54] Great. Sounds fun.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] All right, well, what I want to do is back up. We've already done three hours on the Book of Mormon. Well, I want to warn everybody that there's going to be some overlap between what we talked about then and now. But this topic is so rich that I don't think it hurts to kind of come at this topic from different angles, even if there's some, some overlap. And what we're going to try and do is incorporate a lot of your questions as well. So bear with us, listeners. And we think you're gonna have A great experience.

Origins and Early Influences on the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:24:35] So let's begin. And this is going to be a bit of a recap, but let's begin from a slightly different angle. What kicked off the idea in Joseph Smith's mind to create the Book of Mormon? Let's start there.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] What were the main influences that you think came together that sort of put a light bulb in his head to say, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to write a book. And did it start in 1820? You know, we know that in 1823 he came up with the story that in a nearby hill there was these buried golden, you know, golden plates.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Is that when the idea in his mind first formed? Let's start there. What, when and what were the main contributing factors in your mind to Joseph Smith coming up with the idea to write a book?

Dan Vogel [00:25:41] Well, okay, so there's many things in his environment that suggest such a thing. There is that Ethan Smith mentioning if Hebrew writing was discovered, it would prove the Hebrew origin of the Indian.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] Okay, so that's the Hebrews, right?

Dan Vogel [00:26:08] Yes. 1823 book, though.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Okay, so, yeah, so one of the main forces is 1823 view of the Hebrews comes out by Ethan Smith. Now, we know that Oliver Cowdery talk about Oliver Cowdery's relationship to Ethan Smith or how he would have known about him?

Dan Vogel [00:26:26] Well, Oliver Cowdery's not in the picture, so I hope.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] No, no, no. Well, but Oliver Cowdery is a member of each of his congregation at the time, right?

Dan Vogel [00:26:36] Yeah. Oliver Cowdery's mother was a member of his congregation in Vermont. And so there is that. There is that connection. It's a small world in the, you know, early history of the United States. There's a lot of connections, as Mike Quinn showed with his in his magic book, all sorts of familial connections between people that you never thought would be. But I don't really think that that's all that crucial. I don't think Joe Smith was introduced to Ethan Smith's book by Oliver Cowdery. Oliver Cowdery says they met in April. April 5th is the first time he laid eyes on Joseph Smith.

Guest [00:27:28] What year?

Dan Vogel [00:27:30] Oh, April 5th, 1829.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Okay.

Dan Vogel [00:27:33] Oliver Cowdery left Manchester. He met the Smiths when he went to Manchester to teach school.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] And you believe that that was the first time Oliver met Joseph. Okay, so let's go back a tiny bit then. You mentioned Ethan Smith and the release of the View of the Hebrews as a main influencer. If we trace Ethan Smith back a little bit there's that Dartmouth relationship that also we know that Joseph Smith's brother Hyrum had. Is it worth going back a bit pre Ethan Smith to talk about the Dartmouth influence on Ethan Smith. Just to kind of set the stage. When we read through Kathleen Malonakis book on counterfeiting and interviewed her, she made a lot of that Dartmouth connection. And so I just wonder whether it makes sense to talk about that to set the stage for Ethan Smith in the view of the Hebrews or not.

Dan Vogel [00:28:41] Well, you know, Dartmouth was the university that had schools for Indians and educating Indians, but. And ministers who went to preach to the Indians like Ethan Smith. But Barons, I forget his first name right now.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] That's B E H R E N S. Right.

Dan Vogel [00:29:04] He has published an article, I believe it was in the John Whitmer Historical Society Journal where he tried to link the teachings of a certain professor at Dartmouth with influencing Hyrum Smith, who then influenced Joseph Smith. But in the. I haven't seen any real evidence for this in the article, Barron's article, he never quoted any sources, any notes of this professor, only general things that Joseph Smith could have gotten anywhere else. And some of the parallels I suspect, but I can't check because I have no document evidence of anything.

Dan Vogel [00:29:58] Some of the parallels he lists like a belief in the pre existence. Well, I don't know what this professor was teaching, but he could have been teaching that from scriptures like out of Jeremiah, I knew thee before thou wast in the womb. Which has nothing to do with the pre existence. Even though Mormon missionaries might use it as a proof text. It's really about in God's foreknowledge. The passage is about God's foreknowledge, not about human pre existence.

Dan Vogel [00:30:32] So if the professor had used that and Barron's could have misinterpreted it like most Mormon missionaries today as oh, that professor believes in pre existence. And that could have been one of his parallels. So there's a lot of things in that list that theologically you need to explore in more depth than just list them in a list. So I'm suspect until I see any evidence, I don't really accept this. But okay, reasoning.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Yes. But let me just, let me just see if I can. If I if you agree with kind of the understanding I'm getting. I listened to an episode of Bryce blakenegel's podcast Naked Mormonism, which has a lot of swear words, but also he reads a lot of really interesting history. I really recommend that podcast.

Evaluating Plagiarism Claims and Source Texts

John Dehlin [00:31:29] But what he does is he reads he reads off, like, 30 books that were written, you know, within 10 to. Within 5 to 10 to 100 years of the Book of Mormon, which are all books fascinated with the Native Americans, connecting the Native Americans to Israel, trying to explain Hebrew origins, claiming to find Hebrew artifacts or Israeli artifacts embedded within Native American language or culture.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] And there's even, you know, there's even statements about we really need a book that. That ties this all together. And so that. And again, that, you know, the Spalding manuscript is one that gets mentioned there, along with View of the Hebrews, along with like, 28 other books that combined with, you know, you do the reading of the things that the Professor Smith at Dartmouth was teaching.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] And a lot of that content ends up either in the Book of Mormon or in Joseph Smith's later theology. What I'm trying to establish is there was just this. Really, it was Almost like in 1820, New England and civilized, educated, religious America was begging for a type of book that Joseph Smith ended up producing. And can you just tell me whether I have that right and whether you see it similarly or not?

Dan Vogel [00:33:11] Yes, I would say yes. It fit right into. Like, I was watching your interview or podcast with John Hamer. That's what he was pointing out was the milieu of Justice Smith's time, that the history in the Book of Mormon, like I said before, was invisible because most of the people already accepted the theological explanation that the Indians were from the ten tribes of Israel and that they made parallels with Hebrew.

Dan Vogel [00:33:50] Whenever they found pictographs on stones and other places, they would compare them to Hebrew or their work, their spoken language, they would compare them with Hebrew words and. But when. So I did the Indian origin book. I tried to find every book written about the Indian before 1830 to see what was in the air. And that's the key. In the air, the zeitgeist or whatever.

Dan Vogel [00:34:30] What the cultural assumptions of Joseph Smith's day were not define plagiarism. So many people want to go out there and find Joseph Smith plagiarizing some specific book and then say, ha, ha, the Book of Mormons a fraud. And that, you know, make their job really easy. But it's not going to be that easy. It's going to be a lot of hard work, a lot of digging.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Plagiarism is almost a straw man that apologists maybe unintentionally use as a way to throw people off the scent of the trail. Isn't that right?

Dan Vogel [00:35:05] Well, what the apologists try to do is to say, oh, Justice Smith, some big scholar was with a big library just sitting there writing this Book of Mormon. And they try to make the task as difficult as possible to show that it's a miracle, you know, or to laugh at critics.

Dan Vogel [00:35:27] But the sources are not being used to show that Joseph Smith read this or read that. If you want to prove plagiarism, you have to have the same level of evidence that we have for the King James version or, you know, where most of the critics will look at the evidence and say, well, there's no disputing that Joseph Smith is copying this certain sentence, paragraph or whatever. More than four words, hopefully. But.

Dan Vogel [00:36:00] So what we're doing is we're mining the culture. It's sort of like what archaeologists do. They don't, like all at once dig up a whole city. They put test pits down to see what that culture was like and make inferences about the whole culture based on what they find in these certain pits. Well, it's sort of like what we're doing. We're mining the literature. Now, everything in Joseph Smith's culture wasn't, like, written down in a book for the most part. A lot of things that they assumed, they just didn't think about writing because it was the assumptions of the time.

Dan Vogel [00:36:39] So we're using the sources to reconstruct the mindset and say, Solomon Spalding. I don't believe Solomon Spalding is the author of the Book of Mormon, but he is an example of how someone in Joseph Smith's culture thought. So at the beginning of his book, he digs down and, you know, finds a record, and it's written in Latin, and he translates it because he knows how. He knows Latin, and he translates it. And it's this, you know, romance or a story of Romans coming to America, and they discover the Mound Builders and the Indians here, and they write about it, about the tribes. And Spaulding's story is much closer to what was actually believed, you know, about the Mound Builders and. Right there, the Kentuckians and.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] Okay, so is this a book that Spaulding published?

Dan Vogel [00:37:50] No, it's his manuscript. Manuscript story.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] And does that manuscript exist today? The Spalding manuscript you just spoke of

Dan Vogel [00:38:02] here in Ohio at Oberlin College? I believe it's still there up north.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Okay, so Spalding wrote a manuscript that talks about Romans coming to ancient America and discovering the Mound builders. Is that right?

Dan Vogel [00:38:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] And he would have written that manuscript around when?

Dan Vogel [00:38:21] Oh, I think it was about 1816, I think it was. Or that's when he died. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Okay, so that's important because around you know, so we're talking about seven years before maybe Joseph Smith comes up with the idea to write the Book of Mormon seven years before View of the Hebrews is published. Solomon Spalding represents. It's not that we're claiming the Book of Mormon is a plagiarism of Solomon Spalding's manuscript. The value of understanding the Solomon Spaulding story is he's one of like 30 examples or more of people that tried to write the book that ties the old.

Guest [00:39:05] What.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] What everyone thought anyway. They try to fill in the pieces of explaining the tie between the ancient world and all these mound builders that the New Englanders were running into as, as they settled northeastern United States. Is that right? Did I get that right?

Dan Vogel [00:39:22] Right. So he didn't follow the Hebrew origin theory. He, he had a different theory that no one else I know would talk about Romans getting off course and landing in America, but he wanted it to be Latin so it could be translated, you know, so anyway, that's an example. Where did Spalding get the idea of finding a record that was buried? You know, because that's the way you solve the mystery of who the mound builders are, who are the mound builder. That was the mystery. Who are the mound builders? And how would you go about proving it? So if you can't prove it, you might imagine a way that it could be proved.

Dan Vogel [00:40:15] This was Solomon Spalding's theory of how to solve the mystery of the mound builders and, and their disappearance. And it's. He provides an example of how an author might write and solve that problem. He also has horses in his romance because most people assumed the horse began, you know, was here, indigenous to America when the Spaniards came. But we know that the Spaniards brought the horse.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Right? Right. Okay. So he's got some of the same anachronisms that Joseph Smith ends up putting into the Book of Mormon. What do you make of the Solomon Spalding theory? That there was this other manuscript, and I'm just using a vague memory. Do you want to tell people the theory about the other manuscript and why that theory exists? Because I know at least Bryce Blakenegel leans towards the Solomon Spalding theory. So give us your best explanation of the Solomon Spalding theory regarding the origins of the Book of Mormon. And after you've given your best explanation of the theory, tell us why you're not a big fan of it.

The Solomon Spalding Theory Examined

Dan Vogel [00:41:44] Well, the theory was started when Mormon missionaries went and started preaching around Conneaut, Ohio. And then some of Spalding's former friends, acquaintances, one guy especially said, oh, I know where that Book of Mormon came from? And he said it was Solomon Spalding. He wrote about it and.

Dan Vogel [00:42:11] And this would have been like 15 years previous to the Mormon missionaries preaching the Book of Mormon. So that got word back to Ohio and Kirtland and some of Joseph Smith's critics, wealthy critics in Kirtland area, hired Philestus Hurlbut to go search out this manuscript. And he went earnestly looking for it.

Dan Vogel [00:42:52] And he came upon the relatives of Spalding in Pennsylvania and Ohio and he interviewed them and made these affidavits published in 1834 in Edie Howe's Mormonism Unveiled. He also got in contact with the widow of Spalding, of Spalding, Martha Spalding, and interviewed them.

Dan Vogel [00:43:27] So, and he got a hold of this manuscript eventually, but never published it because it wasn't anything like the Book of Mormon. And his affidavits were much more powerful without publishing the manuscript. And so they. When the manuscript didn't match. So Hurlbut is sincere about finding the manuscript. He found the manuscript, it didn't match. So they start, you know, trying to reconcile the memories of his neighbors and family with the manuscript and they invent an explanation for. To reconcile those two conflict, conflicting information, which was, there must be another manuscript. And then people start saying, oh yeah, there must be another manuscript. If my memory says it was about the 10 tribes, really.

Dan Vogel [00:44:42] And that's how it kind of started. When you look at the testimony of the families and friends, their earliest testimony is based on their reading of the Book of Mormon. They didn't interview them before they read the Book of Mormon. Say, what do you remember about this manuscript?

Dan Vogel [00:45:05] They have vague memories of this manuscript being read to them by Spalding. And some of them read it themselves. I guess these vague memories start being triggered by their reading of the Book of Mormon, which taints those memories.

Dan Vogel [00:45:26] And they start constructing new memories. And right now, this is where I'm alluding to research by psychologists like Elizabeth Loftus who did experiments with people that. And implanted memories in people during interviews. They would interview people and say, we, you know, talk to your family. And they said, you at one time when you were young, you got lost in a mall. And they would say, I'm not so sure about that. I don't really remember that, but I have a vague, maybe there's a vague, you know, memory of that. And then later they would re interview these people and they would say, well, remember that time when you were lost in the mall?

Dan Vogel [00:46:22] And they would say, oh yeah, I think I remember. It now I've been thinking about it, and I remember that, well, these and other Elizabeth Loftus was doing this kind of research for testimony in courts and seeing how reliable eyewitness testimony can be in certain situations.

Dan Vogel [00:46:47] But I think it teaches us here about how these vague memories with these Spaulding witnesses in the very beginning are implanted and reshaped and they think they actually remember. And when you look at their testimonies really carefully, line for line, you'll find that there is a lot of discrepancies and a lot of problems with that testimony.

Dan Vogel [00:47:16] This testimony is relied on and other people start remembering things. And mostly the research throughout the 19th century on the Spalding thing is done by religiously motivated researchers who some of them, I believe, out and out lied, and they provided evidence that was missing.

Dan Vogel [00:47:39] And I think it's gotten terribly out of hand on the Internet, actually. So I don't believe there's anything like that happened. Another problem is trying to say that how did the manuscript get to Joseph Smith? And they tried to do it through Signe Rigdon.

Dan Vogel [00:48:07] And what happens is Signe Rigdon's over here in Ohio and Joseph Smith's over here in New York. How does the manuscript get to Ohio or to New York? From Ohio to New York. And when Sidney Rigdon hadn't heard of the Book of Mormon, he was preaching something that sounded like the Book of Mormon. But when you study Sidney Rigdon's area and that he was a Campbellite and believed in restorationism and that he had left kambalism for a more radical version of not just a restoration of the form, but the power thereof.

Dan Vogel [00:48:49] He wanted the restoration of spiritual gifts. And he was basically a seeker, much like Joseph Smith's uncle. Jason Mack was a seeker, and Joseph Smith's father was a seeker. And this is where Joseph Smith gets his version of seeker ism from his own family. He didn't have to go to Signor Rigdon to get it. If Sidney Rigdon wrote the Book of Mormon, it would have been much better. But.

Dan Vogel [00:49:19] It would probably be more learned, though, instead of more artistic, I would say poetic. But Senior Ritter was very eloquent, but he was also very learned. And the learned part would have probably got interfered. It would have been totally different. It would have been anything like the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] And

Dan Vogel [00:49:43] so why does Signe Rigdon. Why would he be impressed with Spalding's thing, I mean, and think that, oh, he had to, like, take that to Joseph Smith instead of revealing it himself? And how did he know about Joseph Smith. There's no connection. And so what happens? It's very fortuitous that Parley P. Pratt leaves Ohio and goes to New York and accidentally hears about the Book of Mormon as he's traveling western New York on a preaching tour.

Dan Vogel [00:50:22] And he goes to Manchester and talks to Hyrum, and Hyrum takes him to Fayette to meet Joseph Smith. Pratt is converted. Then he's. Then he's assigned to go on the Lamanite Mission with Oliver Cowdery as the leader, Peter Whitmer Jr. And Ziba Peterson. And there these four missionaries are taken off in October and they're going to Missouri, But.

Dan Vogel [00:50:54] But they decide to stop by Ohio on the way. And Pratt introduces the missionary, other missionaries, to Sidney Rigdon. So for this all to work, you have to have a conspiracy, a massive conspiracy. Not only does Sidney Rigdon have to be in the conspiracy, but Pratt has to be in the conspiracy.

Dan Vogel [00:51:25] And the conspiracy widens as you keep on going with, trying to explain how all these things take place. So anyway, I do not support the Spalding theory as Joseph Smith's source. I don't think he has, like a manuscript, a complete manuscript that he's reading from in his hat or out in the woods or anywhere. He could have things out in the woods, but not the Spalding manuscript.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] Okay. And again, Rob writes Spalding's second work, written after 1812, called Manuscript Found, is missing, and supposedly has all this Book of Mormon connections. Are you saying that there wasn't a second manuscript at all? I think that's what John Hamer actually.

Dan Vogel [00:52:22] Right. No, that we. I mean, that we can really demonstrate. All we have was people after the fact trying to save a theory that is not working.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Okay. And so for it. So when we have all those witnesses saying they remember Spalding's manuscript having a Nephi or a Lehigh or a Layman or Lemuel or whatever the names are that they remember in Spalding's manuscript. You're saying that's the. That's the product of implanted memories or, you know, recreated memories?

Dan Vogel [00:52:58] Well, the one giveaway. The giveaway is that they never name a name without first being prompted by the Book of Mormon. They don't go, oh, yeah, I remember this other name in a place that they haven't read. They only read it, and they have these vague memories, and it sort of sounds like the name that they remember. So they're not asked, tell us what Spaulding's manuscript said before they read the Book of Mormon or in a part of the Book of Mormon they haven't read. So it's always being prompted, vague memories being prompted by the Book of Mormon itself. So they haven't been really. It's the interviewer. Horrible. He's not a professional interviewer. He isn't worried about trying to verify it. He doesn't know what he's doing. He's not doing it intentionally. He's doing it out of ignorance. And he's implanting memories as he's going. And it's just being reflected back.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Got it. Okay. And so, but again, just to summarize the Spalding point, the importance of the Spalding manuscript isn't. And when. I mean that, I mean, the one that actually does exist and still exist today is it's an example of how common it was for early 19th century American historians, or people who were religious or whatever you want to call them, to attempt to write a book explaining the origins of the mound builders that they were finding and to tie them to the old world. Because everything comes out of the Tower of Babel and the last 12 tribes. And there has to be a way to tie these mound builders to the worldview, the biblical worldview that necessitated a 6,000 year earth and everyone coming from Adam and Eve and the Tower of babel and the 12 tribes of Israel. Correct.

Dan Vogel [00:55:12] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Now that's the value of the Solomon Spalding manuscript.

Dan Vogel [00:55:17] That's the value of the Solomon Spalding manuscript. In my opinion, that it doesn't matter. I mean, that value exists no matter what you think about the theory of the Book of Mormon origin. It's there. And Spalding somehow wanted to solve the mound builder myth and he did it with. Through Latin. Joseph Smith did it through, you know, reformed Egyptian, which is. Is another thing.

Dan Vogel [00:55:46] Whenever the early 19th century writers talked about the Indians, they said that they spoke Hebrew, that their language was Hebrew sounding, and they would make these long name lists. But whenever they talked about Indian writing, it would always be compared to Egyptian.

Dan Vogel [00:56:11] And I shouldn't say always. I mean, it could be compared to Chinese, but they would compare the Mayan writings and pictographs on stones to Egyptian writing. And so this is what I think inspired the first part of the Book of Mormon, that it was written in the language of my father, Hebrew, but in the script, you know, the reformed Egyptian writing. That's where you get the mixture of using Egyptian script to write Hebrew words.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] Right. And so we all think, wow, it must come from God that Joseph Smith claims that the plates were written in Egyptian, because who else, where else would that idea come from? But we have other people prior to 1823 theorizing that the native American language was some form of Egyptian or Hebrew or reformed Egyptian. And that's what lots of people are writing about. So Joseph. That's another idea that we can trace from Joseph Smith to previous authors. Correct.

Dan Vogel [00:57:31] Well, nobody knows what Egyptian sounds like, so that would be a dead end. But they know what Hebrew sounds like. Now, Ethan Smith was theorizing, what if a book, an Indian book, was discovered written in Hebrew, that would prove the Hebrew origin of the Indians. And he kind of got this from that. There was rumor of the Pittsfield Parchments, which was in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, claimed that they had found a phylactery with the Hebrew writings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] Talk about what a phylactery is. That's an important thing.

Dan Vogel [00:58:15] Phylactery from the New Testament is that Jesus, remember Jesus saying they enlarged their phylacteries, you know, well, the phylactery was a little box that they wore on the forehead that had certain passages from the books of Moses written on them. And they were commanded to keep the

Guest [00:58:38] law

Dan Vogel [00:58:41] constantly before them. And so this was a little tradition that the Jewish community devised to follow that command. So it could have been a real phylactery that they found because a lot of times they found steel in the mounds. They found swords or rusted out swords in the mounds.

Dan Vogel [00:59:08] And they speculated that the mound builders were a high civilization that had knowledge of iron and steel, steel swords. And they would name steel bows. So like Nephi had a steel bow, which actually probably was taken from the Old Testament, where describes David that in his Psalms talks about a bow that was broken steel. Bow that was broken steel in. In the Old Testament was the King James Version. King James translators translation for brass.

Dan Vogel [00:59:51] So it was really a brass bow, but they translated as steel. So just. Smith probably assumed that the knowledge of steel was take taken across the ocean to America and they had steel. And the psalm says that the bow is broken in my hands. That's what happens to Nephi. He breaks his steel bow. So I think that's a source for Joseph Smith in writing that.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] Yeah. And just to kind of. And again, I put a couple links up to the Naked mormonism podcast, episode 16 and 17, and there are others as well, but. And I think he just gets his work right from Sandra and Gerald Tanner.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] If you go back and read all the books that attempt to explain the mound builders, you're gonna find so much in common with the Book of Mormon, including trying to Tie the mound builders to the 12 tribes, calling them the pure blood of Israel, trying to find Hebrew or Egyptian in their writings and in the archaeology of the Native Americans, a transcontinental navigation, the dark and the light race sort of theory. Just so. And again, you mentioned steel and swords and helmets and all of that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] So much of what we think is original to Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon can be found in 30 other books that were written again within seven to 50 years prior to the Book of Mormon's publishing. Is that fair to say?

Dan Vogel [01:01:43] Right. And the important part is that we are not saying he read any of these books, that we are tapping into that culture.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Or plagiarized. Or plagiarized.

Dan Vogel [01:01:53] Plagiarized those books. I don't know what. Where he got the idea. It's impossible to trace where he got the idea. Unless you can show plagiarism. Then, you know, oh, that's the book that he borrowed from or read.

Biblical Passages and Authorship Evidence

John Dehlin [01:02:07] But you're not finding long passages directly inserted other than from the Bible. Right, right.

Dan Vogel [01:02:15] The Bible is.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Nobody can dispute the plagiarism from the Bible.

Dan Vogel [01:02:20] The Bible, yeah. So I'm looking for evidence along those same lines where at least the critics, you know, the publicists probably will never agree, but at least the critics look at the evidence and say, oh, there's no way to question that Joe Smith is plagiarizing this book.

Dan Vogel [01:02:41] The evidence that I've seen, like on the Great War and other books, even Ethan Smith's book, I don't find any indisputable evidence that it's being plagiarized. I see lots of similar phraseology. But you can go through the Book of Mormon and show similar phraseology from the revivals and the sermons that were delivered at the revivals. The phraseology is the same. You find similar phrases to the revivals that aren't in the Bible.

Dan Vogel [01:03:19] Infinite Atonement, I think, is one of them, if I remember correctly. So Mark Thomas did a lot of early work on that. And, you know, if you look at the sermons of the time, which I have unpublished ones in my library here by Charles Marford, who lived pretty close to Joe Smith, and he was a Methodist exhorter, and you read his sermons and he wrote his down, even though he was a Methodist, he actually wrote his down. And you read the language and the type of sermon and the thought patterns, they are very similar to the sermons in the Book of Mormon.

Dan Vogel [01:04:09] So we're not saying that Joseph plagiarized any source. The apologists want to Push it that way to make it an impossible. Yeah, right. He read all these sources, but that's not what we're claiming. We're just reconstructing the mindset. And you can do this not with just the Book of Mormon, but with Joseph Smith's Revelations and the doctrines he's talking about.

Dan Vogel [01:04:40] For example, when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery are like arguing about the translation of Alma, this older. And the Moses being translated also, before he gets to the third Nephi and talks about the three Nephites being translated, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery have a debate about this. And, well, Oliver Cowdery loses the debate, but it's very. And at the same time, he dictates from the stone The D&C 7, which talks about a manuscript being hidden by John the Beloved.

Dan Vogel [01:05:29] And it's about the Peter. You know, if I say. And Peter saying, what can, you know, what do you want me to do? What should I do? Jesus says, follow me. And he goes, well, what about this other disciple? And he goes, what if I want him to live until the end?

Dan Vogel [01:05:50] You know, your job is to follow me. Right. So Joseph Smith misinterprets that whole exchange in a bizarre way and makes it. The whole doctrine of translation comes from this misinterpretation of what Jesus is saying at the end of the Gospel of John when he's telling Peter, you're gonna follow me, more or less, he's going to be martyred for the truth. And John, what is it to you?

Dan Vogel [01:06:24] John lives until I return, which in early Christianity was supposed to be like right away. And, you know, before all those hearing Jesus words died, before this generation pass away, they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds, glory of his Father. So. And that didn't happen. But still, you know, even Paul thought he was going to be alive before Jesus returned. Those of us who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet him in the air. It didn't happen. So Joseph Smith misinterprets this exchange between Peter and Jesus and makes a whole doctrine of translation out of it, which is, you know, bizarre.

Dan Vogel [01:07:16] It's a bar. One of the bizarre things about the Book of Mormon about there. Yeah, sure. There's three Nephites walking around that never taste of death, you know. So at any rate, okay, so this is great.

John Dehlin [01:07:33] So again, we're probably missing. We're probably off. If we're trying to figure out how the Book of Mormon was authored, we're probably straying from the trail. If we're trying to pin plagiarism on Joseph Smith. It's more about understanding the general cultural understandings and myths and theories that were prevalent everywhere. That influenced the Solomon Spalding manuscript, that influenced the late War, that influenced the view of the Hebrews, that influenced the Dartmouth scholars, that influenced everyone that they were swimming in these theories and desires to explain. And that central source of common folklore and understanding is the most reliable from your perspective, source of inspiration for what becomes the Book of Mormon along with the Bible plagiarisms directly from the Bible.

Dan Vogel [01:08:40] 1

Guest [01:08:44] here's this song.

Guest [01:08:46] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Guest [01:09:21] but they're all the same to me when we worship love and though we may speak in different tones May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone to our peace become.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] One

Guest [01:09:58] life to live Mind the time while it takes we are here in this moment let's unwrap it like it's the most beautiful.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1067

John Dehlin [00:00:01] One. Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] One Life to Live Mind the Time. Let's go back to View of the Hebrews now that was kind of a bit of a lengthy dive into what informs the View of the Hebrews. Why did you go When I asked you what gave Joseph Smith the idea to create the Book of Mormon, you went straight to 1823 in the book of View of the Hebrews. So I know now that you're not claiming that the Book of Mormon is a plagiarism of the View of the Hebrews, but what is it about the view of the Hebrews coming out in 1823 that you think gives Joseph the idea to create the Book of Mormon?

What Motivated Joseph Smith to Create the Book of Mormon

Dan Vogel [00:01:30] Okay, well, the. So in 1823 we don't know what he was saying about the origin of the Indians yet either. Meaning Joseph yeah, in 1823 we know he's telling stories about the ancient inhabitants as if he lived among them all his life.

Dan Vogel [00:01:53] We don't know if he was connecting it to the saying the Indians were Hebrew. We don't know really what the content of the Book of Mormon is going to be until later when he's just before he starts dictating it. So his view of the Hebrews is still pertinent, but when he starts talking about digging up a record and what made him go to the record, I'm using psalmist balding view of the Hebrews and others that talk about possible Indian book legends of Indian books and his own way of solving the problem which was the book to him in 1823 was a way of solving family dispute over religion.

Dan Vogel [00:02:58] So he was like I suggested before, telling his family what the book was about, what was written on the book, without getting the book before he would even even get the book. So he knew he could talk about the contents, whatever it was, without actually getting the book in 1823.

Dan Vogel [00:03:21] So I think this is something original. Joseph Smith confronted with a similar solution or similar problem as Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith, and his solution is to find a book with writing on it. How else are you gonna do it?

John Dehlin [00:03:43] You know, And I think I remember a version of View of the Hebrews, even saying something to the effect of, wouldn't it be amazing if a book was found that, you know, that goes into more depth in explaining the origins of the mound builders? Do I have that right? That even View of the Hebrews sort of has a place where it's calling for the creation of another book?

Dan Vogel [00:04:08] Well, the problem is the want of evidence. So Ethan Smith is frustrated that there isn't this conclusive evidence of the Hebrew origin of the Indian. So Joseph Smith's confronted with the how do I prove to my family, you know, certain theological.

Dan Vogel [00:04:31] How do I solve certain theological problems? And this is what he worked out in his mind and prayed about, and this is the solution. He got this as, this is how I can answer my father's universalism. This is how I can prove that, you know, Jesus is God, not just, you know, the Son of God, Unitarianism, in other words.

Dan Vogel [00:05:00] So the family is disputing over religion, arguing about religion. And one psychological aspect of Joseph Smith that still radiates to Mormonism today is that he's intolerant of religious controversy. He's intolerant of. It's a loss of the spirit in his mind.

Dan Vogel [00:05:32] Whereas some people would think that, you know, that's. That's vibrant and that's life and debate and stuff was a good thing. He saw it as a hindrance to spirituality. And so he want. He couldn't stand this conflict, and he wanted it to stop.

Dan Vogel [00:05:55] And this is how he figured out how to stop it. So today, Mormons, you know, they're not. If you bring up anything that doesn't support, you know, or isn't, you know, you know, if you bring up anything that is negative, their view that doesn't support a positive direction the church is moving in or whatever, they will feel bad. They have bad feelings, and they want it. They will cut you off, and that will be it. Because they can't tolerate religious controversy. The average Mormon I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And you're saying that goes all the way back to. To Joseph Smith's temperament.

Dan Vogel [00:06:47] Yeah, it's that. And he could not stand it in. Even if somebody criticized him, he would lash out like a lion. One friend of his, you know, Benjamin Johnson, he would. If anybody criticized him, he would lash out like a lion. You know, he couldn't tolerate conflict or criticism, Criticism. And he wanted to him, the spirit was peaceful and

John Dehlin [00:07:21] joy and peace and love and fame.

Dan Vogel [00:07:23] One heart, you know, Zion to Joseph Smith was when all the believers were of one heart. And it's a utopian view. It's a, you know, unrealistic view of the world that he was trying to impose on others and manipulate others to adhere to for his view of what spirituality was like.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And so do you believe that as early as 1820, so you believe that the release of the View of the Hebrews. Do you envision Joseph Smith actually seeing the book, learning about the book, potentially even reading the book? That's part one, and then part two is do you see his revealing to his family that he's found golden plates in a hill as him actually saying, I'm going to write the book that the view of the Hebrews envisions and others and me telling this story about the golden plates is going to be the beginning of how I end up writing the book. Do you envision it being that specific with Joseph Smith?

Dan Vogel [00:08:45] I don't see him as being an avid reader of any kind except for the Bible. It's what you can only talk about what the evidence shows, really. And you can't prove that he read any book besides the Bible, really. It's in. These things are in the air. He doesn't have to read them. He could be hearing people talk about them, ministers talk about them, traveling lecturers. He was in a debating club. People in his day knew a lot more about theology than the average person today.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] And

Dan Vogel [00:09:29] he was a deep thinker, original thinker. He heard these controversies. I mean, they're in his house, really. And so he can't really get. Get away from him. Their father and mother have two different views of religion and. And it's all around him. I mean, that's. People talked about theology and theological solutions to problems all the time.

Dan Vogel [00:10:04] But he went through a period in his life, according to 1832 history, from the age of 12 to 15. He read the Scriptures, he pondered them. He concluded eventually that there was a God because the universe is ordered.

Dan Vogel [00:10:25] You know, because the universe is ordered and the planets are ordered. That's evidence that there's a God. And the fool says in his heart that there's no God. So. But he heard a lot about Deism. Now, Deism was also Unitarian in a way that it believed in one God. And Jesus was just the Son of God, not in a literal sense.

Dan Vogel [00:10:52] And Deists like Thomas Paine, he wrote the Age of Reason. And remember this? I don't know if you remember the story of a Sol Smith. When Lucy and Joseph Smith Sr. Were in Vermont, they started attending Methodist Revivals, which made a Smith angry. And he took Thomas Paine's Age of Reason and threw it into their house saying, read this until you believe it, you know.

Dan Vogel [00:11:30] But Thomas Paine went meticulously through the Bible showing all the contradictions, all the problems of the Bible. And Joseph Smith was in the Book of Mormon trying to answer these contradictions and problems. He was also trying to answer them in his revision of the Bible.

Dan Vogel [00:11:57] From 1830 to 1833, he worked on revising the Bible trying to resolve many of these contradictions. Well, so I believe he heard probably from the Deists that the book of Deuteronomy was a pious fraud. And so Joseph Smith got the idea, I believe that if Deuteronomy is a pious fraud and it's in the Bible and it helps people, then, then I can do it. And I think that's where he got his idea of pseudepigrapha, where he will produce pseudepigrapha himself that people will believe. And the Bible's canonized, you know, and people believe it. Yet here's this book in there that's probably pseudepigraphic.

Isaiah, Mound Builders, and Pseudepigrapha

John Dehlin [00:12:55] Okay. And that, by the way, you remind me of something else. I mentioned this list that Bryce Blakenigle puts together of like, and I think that he gets from the tanners of like 30 other books that attempt to explain mound builder origins. Your first book deals with that in depth, right?

Dan Vogel [00:13:15] Yeah, yeah, 1986. Yeah, 1986.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Long time ago. Yeah. But several, as I understand it, several of these books quote Isaiah. And so even the idea of quoting Isaiah is not original to Joseph Smith. Many of these, including View of the Hebrews, quotes Isaiah extensively as a part of their book to explain the origins of the mound builders. Correct.

Dan Vogel [00:13:44] Well, Ethan Smith, he quoted a part that I don't think the Book of Mormon quoted though.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] No, no, no. But the idea we not only have other people writing books, you know, claiming, trying to explain the origins of the Native Americans that there were a light skinned and a dark skinned, all that we already have 30 times over. Some of these books are even quoting Isaiah. It's not important again whether Joseph quotes the same part of Isaiah as these other books. I'm just saying some of these other books even go as far as to quote Isaiah as a part of the book. That's all I'm saying.

Dan Vogel [00:14:20] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] But talk quickly about how Deuteronomy is, you know, is supportive of the idea of a pious fraud and how you think that then leads Joseph to feel okay about this idea of Pseudepigrapha, which is writing as if you're some ancient author.

Dan Vogel [00:14:42] Yeah, well, Thomas Paine said, well, the Bible itself says that it was discovered in the walls of the temple when the Jews returned to Jerusalem, but it was actually written by. It's a priest. The priestly document, if you remember David Bacavoy. Yeah, that there's the Yahwist and the Elohist and the priestly documents.

Dan Vogel [00:15:14] And the Deuteronomy was a repetition of the law. And where they wrote the priests actually were able to put in the new priestly community. Legitimacy comes from this book. So and that grew up when Israel was away from the temple, actually in Babylon, the priestly community took over. And so when they came back then they wanted to legitimize themselves and legitimize Jerusalem as the place and all that. So according to Thomas Paine, he said that Ezra, the next book, actually the scribe is probably the person who wrote the Book of Deuteronomy. Of course, Thomas Paine didn't know anything about the documentary hypothesis, but the seeds of it were there.

Dan Vogel [00:16:20] And so, so I believe that that could, if Joseph Smith knew that story, that could have been part of the idea of around writing in behalf of other people, new doctrine. That was the purpose of the Book of Mormon was to put down false doctrine.

Dan Vogel [00:16:48] And the original, the original purpose of the Book of Mormon when Josephus started off was to reform the Christian churches, to put down the debates. Joseph Smith, when I was talking earlier about, he was intolerant of conflict, religious conflict, especially because of his family.

Dan Vogel [00:17:21] He was intolerant of sectarianism, of the strife, sectarian strife, you know, in his 1838 history, he puts that down. He criticizes sectarian strife, priests contending against priests, convert against convert, so that all their good feelings, one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife for words and conflict about opinion. That's what he says. So.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] The.

Dan Vogel [00:17:52] The Book of Mormon before Joseph started to dictate the Book of Mormon in March 1829, when Harris comes seeking a greater witness, Joseph Smith dictated a revelation, D&C5, that said that in the original wording, said that he was to pretend to no other gift besides translating.

Dan Vogel [00:18:22] So at this point he doesn't see anything really beyond dictating the Book of Mormon. He doesn't imagine a church being founded or even a New Jerusalem government with him as the leader or the choice seer in the latter days. That all comes in the process of translating. Towards the end of the translation, he's talking about, you know, founding a church he's giving.

Dan Vogel [00:18:51] You know, even when Jesus comes and preaches to the Nephites, he forgets some things that are essential to starting a church, like the words for the sacrament, which he adds later in the book of Moroni. So then when he comes around to the beginning and starts dictating the replacement for the lost 116 pages from the, from the small plates of Nephi instead of the large plates, he puts in a prophecy about himself that he's, you know, the choice seer in the latter days who shall have a scribe and a spokesperson for him. And goes into vast detail, he has ancient Joseph predict Joseph Smith's coming.

Dan Vogel [00:19:38] So he puts himself right there in Scripture, ancient scripture, in a pseudepigraphic book or prophecy written by ancient Joseph that Lehi's referring to from the brass plates. So by that time he finished with the Book of Mormon, his vision has expanded, you know, beyond all scope. And the narcissistic Joseph Smith is really starting to show, and he has no bounds on his narcissism because he's going to found a New Jerusalem.

Dan Vogel [00:20:24] New Jerusalem is going to establish a theocracy throughout the United States and then throughout the whole world, and he's going to be the leader of it. So that if that isn't a delusional narcissistic dream, I don't know what would be.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Okay. Okay. And so that. And so just to tie this back to kind of some of the questions we wrote out, you do believe you the Hebrews wasn't a source of plagiarism, but was maybe the publication of the View of the Hebrews jostled into Joseph's mind the idea of writing a book like the Book of Mormon, but it certainly wasn't a source of plagiarism. And he may have not even read it.

Dan Vogel [00:21:17] Don't know. But the View of the Hebrews is a good candidate because not not word plagiarism, but plagiarism maybe of idea, of ideas, of ideas. So that's the thing that when you do your computer searches on the Internet and you search these thousands of books, you only pick up language similarities, not idea borrowings. Also, you know, the great.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] That's a downside of the wordprint analysis stuff, because what you really want to look for are ideas reappearing and the frequency and the strength of the reappearing of ideas, not actual phrases or sentences that would indicate plagiarism because you're arguing it was a verbally dictated book out of the Imagination and knowledge of Joseph Smith and thus was not a plagiarism. So trying to find a source for plagiarism is just missing the mark.

Dan Vogel [00:22:24] The same thing with his revelations. We know he's like, reading tons of theological books and things. And recently some researchers at BYU have discovered that he may have been influenced by Clark's commentaries for his revisions to the Bible, but not. But so far, I haven't seen any evidence for verbal plagiarism of Adam Clark, just ideas.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] So right now. But then again, didn't you say he wasn't much of a reader? Or are you saying he becomes a reader later?

Dan Vogel [00:23:00] He becomes a reader later. Okay, because he wants to. He's educating himself. That's one of the reasons why I think he's doing the inspired revision is because he's going through the Bible with Signe Rigdon, a theologian, piece by piece, and educating himself along the way. Okay, yeah, he wants to be up there with the ministers. He wants to learn Hebrew. He wants to be competitive with other ministers out there.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] But that's later. That's later. Okay, so let's go back to.

Dan Vogel [00:23:34] But even then. Even then.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] Right, right, right.

Dan Vogel [00:23:36] Don't find plagiarism in his Revelations.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Okay? And. And just to summarize a few of the other points we made in the previous interview, you think Joseph Smith was the single author. You think that there was nothing in his hat, no base manuscript shoved into his hat. You think it was primarily verbally dictated from his memory? And you could probably even say the Royal Skousen's Critical Text Project favors this idea of verbal dictation, not of having Joseph reading from a specific manuscript. Is that all. That's all true.

Dan Vogel [00:24:18] Right. So. You can't say he didn't use some kind of manuscript or written text. We know his head's out of the Bible when he's doing out of the hat, when he's dictating Isaiah, probably the witnesses say that there were no books or manuscripts. Well, what they mean is he's not writing it from other sources. Now, if he took the Bible and he said, okay, on the plates, they quote these chapters of Isaiah here, just copy it from here. And he may have done like he did the inspired revision, where maybe he took the Bible and he wrote little changes through the Urim and Thummim or through the Seer Stone, he made changes and he goes, okay, copy this.

Dan Vogel [00:25:12] And they copy it. So they wouldn't have seen that as, oh, that's the source, because it's quoting the Bible. Nobody's going to dispute that the Book of Mormon is quoting the Bible. They're trying to answer the question, did he have a manuscript like Spalding's manuscript? David Whitmer and Emma Smith, they're responding to no. There was no manuscript.

Dan Vogel [00:25:39] And this is the thing about the Spalding theory. They did not know the particulars of how the Book of Mormon was dictated. That's why the Spalding theory thrived for so long, was that the witnesses hadn't described how it was done, because if they knew how it was done, it would have been harder to assert the Spalding theory. The Spalding theory thrived because they were trying to explain how this dumb farmer could produce a book.

Dan Vogel [00:26:10] And it had to be some other learned person over here doing the writing. And Joseph Smith was just a patsy or whatever, you know, the salesperson of the manuscript. Well, they bought into Joseph Smith's own apologetic. He and his followers put out. Joseph Smith wasn't educated enough to dictate the Book of Mormon.

Dictation Process and Joseph Smith's Intellectual Abilities

Dan Vogel [00:26:39] But when you study Joseph Smith, you learn that he was. A lot of people described him as even smarter than Sidney Rigdon, but less polished. That Joseph Smith's sermons, they weren't published like Signor Rigden's, but they were nevertheless superior in content and emotional appeal to Sidney Rigdon's.

Dan Vogel [00:27:11] So the Book of Mormon is exactly what you would expect, that it's not high literature. It's not hugely eloquent in the polished way that Simi Regin would have done it. It's still eloquent. And they described Joseph Smith, he had this crude eloquence, they called it a crude eloquence, an unpolished eloquence. And that he used too many words, which is another thing. The Book of Mormon shows it too many words to express their ideas well. So.

Dan Vogel [00:27:52] In the dictation, and this is where recent. The recent BYU studies came out. And there's an essay in there by Jack Welch, one of the leading apologists. He goes through the timeline for dictating, and he comes out with a similar but more detailed position than what I articulated last time. But he gives a graph on one of the pages. He gives a graph where it shows the maximum number of days, 75 days he has.

Dan Vogel [00:28:34] And from April 7th to the end of June is about 86 days. And he takes off 11 days for trips for dictating revelations and other things. Some of them I don't agree with, but I'll go with the taking off 11 days with 75 days.

Dan Vogel [00:29:00] Then across the bottom here, he shows 10 words per minute, 15 words per minute or 20 words per minute. And he said that they could do 20 words per minute comfortably where they would. They experimented and they would read to a person and they would write it down and read it back.

Dan Vogel [00:29:21] And then the Joe Smith person playing the Joe Smith would say, correct, and then move on and read the next group. And they used Skousen's manuscript where he divided it into the bytes of words. You know, the 20 words were just where he speculates from the actual dictated manuscript, that around 20 words, Joseph Smith would read about 20 words at a time. And so 20 words per minute

John Dehlin [00:30:02] would

Dan Vogel [00:30:03] give you for the 75 days, three hours a day. Okay, three hours a day it would take to do that on average, broken up, you know, however, Joseph Smith wanted to break it up, so that would be the fastest. But at 15 words per minute, you would have.

Dan Vogel [00:30:29] For 75 days. He doesn't show that here for some reason, but 75 days would be four and a half hours it would take. So. And if it were 10 words, which is the slowest, where there'd be lots of hesitation for him to think, you would have six hours.

Dan Vogel [00:30:49] Six hours a day. So what is he doing the other time, the other hours of the day? So he could be out in the woods praying. He could be memorizing passages out of the Bible. He could be working out the story. Right, working out the story.

Dan Vogel [00:31:07] And for the large part, the history of the book is sparse really. It's like scaffolding. And Joseph Smith hangs sermons here and there on it. And Joseph Smith and Mormon's commentary, historical commentary on Mormon basically has a providential view of history, much like the Puritans had. Mormon would. His comments would be. And thus this shows. And then he would say, oh, this shows that, you know, the Lord is not with them or they were blessed and because they obeyed the commandments. And he gives these little commentaries on the history as you go through. And if you look really close at, it's a year by year backwards, you know, up till the time of Christ, each year it's like.

Dan Vogel [00:32:09] It's kind of drudgery from Mosiah on, because it goes year by year by year backwards. And they're not connected. Some, most of the years are not connected to what was said previously. They stand alone. Each one or there might be two or three years connected. That's it.

Dan Vogel [00:32:29] So nothing that is unmanageable or overly complex, You know, the same thing with the names in the Book of Mormon. You know, you have like 144 unique names and most of them are never repeated ever again. You know, they're used once or in a little area and never again.

Dan Vogel [00:32:54] So it doesn't take much memory to keep up with those names that he's inventing. So it's nothing that he can't handle with for the time wise. The idea that he never goes back and makes changes. Well, why would you? You're dictating this and each thing is connecting with the other. There are indications where he backs up and restates things and corrects them that way. That's, that's a clue to it being an oral manuscript.

Dan Vogel [00:33:36] But we do know that he made changes in the 1837 edition anyway. So it's like he made theological changes from, you know, Mary was the mother of God to Mary the mother of the Son of God, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] So for those who want to claim, oh my gosh, he did all this in one fell swoop and then never made any changes. One important part of a response to that apologetic is he does. They do make doctrinal changes in subsequent editions of the book. Not just grammar and punctuation changes, right?

Dan Vogel [00:34:16] Well, one time they changed. Well, I think I mentioned this before. Was it referred in the Book of Ether back to Benjamin having the gift of seeing and then it changed it to Mosiah. And so there are those kinds of changes, but there's no need to make changes. I mean we have, you know, automatic writers who experience automatic writing where it feels like the words are coming from without. It's sort of like tongues, people speak in tongues. It's kind of automatic speaking where they speak and they don't have full control of what they're. The word, the sounds that they're making.

Dan Vogel [00:35:04] When it's automatic, that's they say that's the spirit, help them do it. So you have automatic writers, examples of automatic writers that dictate long manuscripts and never go back and change. We have, we have little 16 year old boy and Nauvoo had a stone Revelations from Moroni. His name was James Colin Brewster.

Dan Vogel [00:35:32] He dictated revelations. Also sounds very much like Isaiah, you know, like he took Gaizen, put it in a grinder and it came out like, here it is. James Cullen Brewster got a following that went off to found a utopian society somewhere, you know, in the western wilderness from Nauvoo.

Dan Vogel [00:36:01] So Joseph Smith is not unique. You have, you have. The Quran is a very interesting example. The Quran even challenges readers to produce a revelation like the least of the revelations in the Qur'. An. And if you can't, you have to believe it.

Dan Vogel [00:36:22] So there are examples of other people. So we don't have to accept any challenge because there are others who have actually done it in the past. There's certain things that can't be repeated the same way in history. Anyway.

The Nephi versus Moroni Controversy

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Talk about the Nephi versus Moroni confusion or controversy. We didn't really touch on that in our last interview. Tell us more about that.

Dan Vogel [00:36:58] I didn't want to get too much off track the other interview, because it is a complex question. And so we. The first real mention, Joe Smith mentions a Moroni in his 1832 history, but not as the. He mentions Moroni as the main writer, actually, of the Book of Mormon. But in 1834, when Oliver Cowdery's writing the history with Joseph Smith's help, he mentions that he's rehearsing the words of moroni. So it's 1835, probably. It could be 1835. He finally mentions the name. So because he has seven letters, but to W.W. phelps. But he says it's Moroni. Then the one source that names Nephi is the history of the Church. And all the other sources that critics usually cite are reliant on the 1838 official history that Joseph Smith was involved with, especially in the early part when he's doing his history.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] So when the church history mentions Nephi, it's mentioning Nephi as having done what

Dan Vogel [00:38:20] appeared in the room. Nephi is the one who appeared in the room. And there's no way to reconcile the two names. Like, oh, Nephi is the one in the room and Moroni is the one on the hill. Because Joseph says that the same messenger appears, you know, and it's a. It's a contradiction. There's no getting around it. It's a contradiction. But the question is, is it intentional or is it by accident? It was it by accident. And he just didn't have his story right because, you know, he can't keep his story straight because he's making it up as he goes, which is rare for charismatic leaders.

Dan Vogel [00:39:07] Charismatic leaders are known to have, first of all, great memories, and second of all, when. When they tell their personal stories, they do it almost word for word every time. And so it's not, to me, likely to be an accident. I think it was an intentional change. And this is my reasoning why it may have been an intentional change.

Dan Vogel [00:39:47] When Joseph Smith's dictating 1838 history, he is in Missouri. He has just come to Missouri. They're in Far West. He intends on Publishing this probably in the Elders Journal, you know, but that gets thwarted because of the war, war between the Missourians and Mormons. Joseph Smith's incarceration in Liberty Jail. And it doesn't get. He doesn't get back to the history project until he gets to Nauvoo. But when he's doing this, the past, there's a passage in the history where he says Nephi appeared to him, but then when he gave the plates back, he says, I gave the plates back. And he has them to this day, the 2nd of May, 1838.

Dan Vogel [00:40:45] Then. So we know that he's dictating this or working on this around the 2nd of May, where he's saying, it's Nephi. Well, on the 8th of May, you know, six days later, he is working on a thing he calls answers to questions that appeared in the Elders Journal where he answers things like, oh, did you.

Dan Vogel [00:41:14] How much did you get paid? Or were you a money digger? Did you steal your wife, Emma? Things like that. Well, one of the ones questions was, where. Where did you get the Book of Mormon? And Joe Smith is saying, these are questions he's being asked all the time. So he decides to answer them once and for all and stop asking me these questions. Well, of course he's making some of these questions up, but he says that he got the plates from Moroni, not Nephi. And this is only six days later. Okay, he got them from Moroni. And he adds a very interesting statement.

Dan Vogel [00:42:07] Who was dead but raised again. And that's who gave the plates to me. So he's making a point saying that Moroni was raised again from the dead. Well, why would he be making this point? And that. And that would be that he's trying to combat the charge that he's a necromancer, that he speaks to spirits, and that it was a spirit who revealed the plates, which would connect it to necromancy, which is forbidden by the Bible. And he's trying to write his history, actually to appeal to a larger Christian audience. That's why he's suppressing all the magical parts, all the folk magic, and making and changing.

Dan Vogel [00:43:07] You know, the Seer Stone. Never mentions the Seer Stone, but changing it to your Urim and Thummim. And it's an angel, not a spirit. Well, I think he was experimenting with who appeared as the angel. And the problem with the Moroni designation, though, is that Moroni died after Jesus resurrection. And so it would be more complicated to try to explain how Moroni was raised from the dead Nephi on the other hand, died before Jesus's resurrection, so Moroni would have been among the resurrected and would have had a body. So he may have been experimenting somewhat with who it was that appeared to him. That's a possibility. That's how I've tried to.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] And if somebody says, oh, either Joseph just accidentally used the wrong word, we all do it all the time, or if somebody says, oh, a scribe must have written down the wrong word. I guess those are both theoretically possible, right?

Dan Vogel [00:44:25] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] But in your mind, what you just said is the more likely scenario.

Dan Vogel [00:44:32] I don't. I don't know if it's likely. It's just a possibility that in the history, he's trying really hard to change the story anyway and suppressing the magic parts to make it more appealing to a wider Christian audience so that he can't. Doesn't get charged with necromancy. I think he thinks he'll change the name to Nephi so that he has a body. But then six days later, he gives Moroni the body, even though it's harder to explain, but yet it's probably firmly established with his Mormon audience. Whereas I think he's writing.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Right. Okay, beautiful. So are you. Did you get. Are you there, Dan? I think we may have lost Dan for a second. Hopefully we will get him. Okay. Sorry, I got booted for a second. Are you still there, Dan?

Dan Vogel [00:45:53] Yes, I'm here.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] Okay. All right.

Joseph Smith's 1838 History and Closing Thoughts

Dan Vogel [00:45:55] Sorry, I wasn't sure you were there.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] My computer booted me out for a second. Okay, cool. Well, that, that. Oh, go ahead.

Dan Vogel [00:46:05] History. What's that? The 1838 history is important to understand the context in which it was written. It's an apologetic history. It begins where he, Joseph Smith, claims, I will be telling the whole truth. The whole truth, nothing but the truth, you know, and in righteousness, you know, he says. But then a couple of pages later, oh, and he's going to. And he's saying he's forced to be telling this history because of the false rumors that had been put into circulation concerning him and the origin of the. The church.

Dan Vogel [00:46:44] Only a few pages later, he is lying about the money, digging or being dishonest and making it appear that he was just an ordinary digger. So. And then it goes on, and he's trying to. He never answers Hurlbut or Ed Howe or any of their affidavits, his former relatives in Pennsylvania or his former neighbors. He just calls them liars, basically. But in this history, he is not forthcoming about his former history, but he tries to reshape it and make it appealing to the Missourians. And he's trying to he emphasizes his being persecuted from a young age. He was persecuted after telling his first vision story.

Dan Vogel [00:47:47] He was persecuted when he started as soon as he started preaching the first time he started preaching in Colesville. And. So he's tapping into persecution to tell his followers that he has been persecuted also for Jesus's name sake and that to encourage them in the persecution that they're experiencing right there and then in Missouri.

Dan Vogel [00:48:21] So that's it. So I believe that's an important thing to keep in mind that that's why in the first vision there's such condemnation from Jesus, you know, that their creeds are an abomination in his sight. Well, it's Joseph Smith telling the Missourians that they're persecuting him because they believe in false creeds.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] Got it. Okay. Well, that's thank you. That's an important question that many people were asking about the Nephi Moroni controversy. So thanks for thanks for touching on that. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting Mindy gledhill.com.

Dan Vogel [00:50:03] May our hearts be sewn together when

John Dehlin [00:50:08] our hearts, hearts feel so undone Till our pieces become. One life to live

Dan Vogel [00:50:28] Mind the time

John Dehlin [00:50:32] while it takes we are all here in this moment

Dan Vogel [00:50:45] let's unwrap it

John Dehlin [00:50:48] like it's the most beautiful thing.

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