Introduction to Denver Snuffer and the Movement

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 835

Kirk Strong [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello everyone. My name is John Dehlin. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. It is November 28, 2017, and we are very excited to have with us Karen and Kirk Strong. Allow me to give you an introduction to them because some of you won't be familiar with what this interview is about.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] So, several years ago, I interviewed a man named Denver Snuffer. Denver Snuffer is a convert to the LDS Church. He went to BYU Law School and has served as an attorney for I don't know how many years. He lives in Salt Lake City, and over time he wrote a few books. And these books were basically about developing a relationship with Christ, as, you know, a member of the LDS Church. And over time, the Brethren, the leaders of the LDS Church, started becoming increasingly uncomfortable with these books.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] I can think of two main reasons why. The first is that Denver Snuffer started encouraging LDS Church members to develop their own personal relationship with Christ. Christ, not just through prayer, but maybe even some might say, seeking a visitation from Christ.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And, or at least that's, you know, how I was introduced to Deborah Stuffer's teachings. So some say the Brethren were uncomfortable with that, maybe because they were concerned that they would be cut out kind of as the middlemen brokering people's relationships with Christ. Those are my words, and I'll take responsibility for those.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] So that was kind of part one of why maybe the Brethren got uncomfortable with Denver Snuffer. The second was that his his teachings resembled fundamentalism. And I use that term in a very specific way. I don't mean FLDS Church polygamous fundamentalism. But what his writing seemed to do was to go back into original early LDS Church days, Joseph Smith times, Kirtland era, I would say, specifically with a heavy focus on the Book of Mormon and to sort of notice where the modern LDS Church sort of strayed from the original teachings of Joseph Smith and from the teachings found in the Book of Mormon. And as he noted those, I'm sure the Brethren maybe felt like they were being criticized or called onto the carpet for straying from the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in Christ.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] Regardless, around 2013, on the 20th anniversary of the September 6th excommunications, Denver snuffer was excommunicated. And that sort of kicked off this wave of excommunications that went into 2014, 2015 and 2016, and Denver snuffer kind of led the way. We did interview Denver Snuffer on Mormon Stories podcast prior to his excommunication. I believe you can search Mormon Stories Denver Snuffer and refer to that interview.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] But we have not been able to get Denver to come on Mormon stories since his excommunication or at least in the past few years. However, the movement that he started continues to go on very strong. There are thousands and thousands of people, former LDS Church members, who have been rebaptized and, and who have started following the teachings of Christ or you know, as sort of influenced by Denver Snuffer and others.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Some have called them the Remnant Movement. There's a website that they have called Zion's Return. You can go to zionsreturn.org as we have this interview today, check out their beliefs. They have asked us for the purposes of this interview to refer to the movement as doctrine of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] But they eschew labels because they really, number one, aren't trying to start a new church and they're trying to avoid the mistakes of the past. And really they're just trying to focus on the teachings of Christ without having it get labeled or corporatized or in any way that could set it down the same path that the LDS church sort of followed. So we don't even have a really solid name for them. But that's not, it's not a huge problem because they're here to kind of represent their own beliefs and their perspectives. So we are going to be interviewed. And now I will welcome you all.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] I will introduce you all. First, those of you who are joining us through Facebook Live, thanks for joining us. But also those who are in our listening or viewing audience through YouTube, I would really like to welcome Karen and Kirk Strong to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Karen Strong [00:05:29] Thank you.

Kirk Strong [00:05:30] Thank you. Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] So nice to have you.

Karen Strong [00:05:32] Great to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] All right. And so we want to thank everyone who's joined us on Facebook Live and encourage everyone to please post comments and questions on the stream. Those comments and questions make this discussion interactive and they make things a lot more interesting. This will likely be a multi hour interview. It certainly will be a multi hour interview. We may pause for lunch and stop the stream and then come back to it. But just be warned, this is going to be one of those, you know, three to four hour interviews, probably because we're going to go deep into their beliefs. And so with that, again, thanks for coming on, guys.

Karen Strong [00:06:13] Thank you.

Karen and Kirk's Early Lives in the Church

John Dehlin [00:06:15] All right, so I think the best place to start would be to talk about each of your early stories with the church. How does that sound?

Kirk Strong [00:06:26] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Is that all right, who wants to go first?

Kirk Strong [00:06:29] So.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] All right.

Kirk Strong [00:06:31] I grew up not too far away from Here actually over the mouth of Parlays Canyon in the Highland High School area. Was born in a home that my father built that very the year before and he still lives in that home now. So very typical Salt Lake upbringing. Very active in the church, attended Highland High School, graduated from.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] You're a Ram.

Kirk Strong [00:06:59] A Ram, yes. Graduated in 69. And then shortly from upon graduation I was asked by our bishop to consider a mission because they had a slot during the Vietnam crisis where they could send two from each ward. And he said he had strong feelings that I should leave. And I was of age, I was 19 when I graduated from high school. I started elementary school late and. And so I was within that age. And so I was in England in October after my getting out of high school and had a marvelous experience over in England. I was in the Southwest British Mission and loved my mission, loved the English people, had a positive experience.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Talk a bit about your testimony as a Mormon teen and young adult. What was it rooted in?

Kirk Strong [00:08:04] Well, back back then, in all honesty, there. There were some that were really into understanding the gospel. But the circles which I ran in, which were pretty good circles actually there were a lot of non members, but we weren't lot of problems.

Kirk Strong [00:08:26] A few, but not a lot. But our knowledge wasn't super strong. I didn't get a lot of knowledge until I developed that interest on my mission. And then ever since my mission I have been very, very thirsty constantly for knowledge. So I had a testimony, but I didn't have the knowledge the gospel that was really that strong.

Kirk Strong [00:08:52] So I developed that on my mission, developed that interest. And then when I came home I just was really very spare time. My hobby was studying the gospel. I mean in those days you used to study a small library. You know, they used to encourage those that were really getting into like doctrines of salvation, gospel doctrine, teachings of prophet Joseph Smith, discourses of Brigham Young, Jesus, the Christ, Articles of Faith. There was. There was about 12, 14 books that were pretty much the mainstream, that were pretty much written by Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding smith, Bruce R. McConkey. They're all related.

Kirk Strong [00:09:39] They were the scriptorians of the day. And I really dove in into the deep end and really got involved to the point that I pretty much knew all the answers at church. And so they'd always point me to be one of the teachers gospel doctrine teacher. And so I loved the gospel. And it was. My upbringing did not turn me off of the gospel. My mission really got me more focused on the gospel. And when I came home I was really into studying the Gospel,

John Dehlin [00:10:17] this idea of a personal witness with Christ, did you seek that as a teen or young adult? Did you even have a sense for what that might mean?

Kirk Strong [00:10:24] Oh, no, I knew exactly what that meant. I remember reading Doctrine and covenants section 84 and how right there around. I can still remember because I read it all the time, verse 19, DNC 84, about how the key of the Melchizedek priesthood and the ordinances were to give you a personal audience with Christ, to see his face. And that's what Moses was trying to do with the children of Israel, is to take them up Mount Sinai so that they could. They could have that experience. And that he tells you right then and there that he plainly taught Israel to come up the mountain with him and they refused to do it.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Now, is this you projecting back your later beliefs as an adult, or were these your beliefs and were these the things you focused on as a teen and young missionary?

Kirk Strong [00:11:34] This is what I focused on towards the end of my mission and as a post missionary in my early 20s,

John Dehlin [00:11:42] you were trying as a missionary to have a relationship with Christ. Did that mean a visitation?

Kirk Strong [00:11:47] What did it mean? I was. Back then, you would even have presidents of the church that would talk about the second comforter, talk about, you know, you would even have a few people talk about the second anointing and those types of things calling election. Made sure that's all. That's all been squashed now, pretty much. But I wanted to have. Not immediately, but I wanted to prepare for a personal visit with the Savior. Joseph Smith taught that clearly in the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. But. But the way that he taught it, I interpreted it that I could in my lifetime, if I made appropriate adjustments in my life through repentance and other things, that before I died in the flesh, that I could have a personal visit from the Savior. And I could not think of any more worthy goal than that in my entire life. That was my goal.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] Okay, so you had a successful mission. Did you pursue college after your mission?

Kirk Strong [00:13:01] Well, I went into a family business. We owned some automobile dealerships. I went into that for a few years and then I just felt the need to go back to college and to get into a different line of work.

Kirk Strong [00:13:16] I actually wanted to go into teaching and coaching. And I was led through a couple of interesting stories that I won't belabor here right now. But. So I decided to ask the Lord, where should I go at the age of 27, now where do I go back to college? And I got the answer. To go down to byu, which really shocked me because people up in this wasatch area right here in Salt Lake, especially out of Highland High School, this. That area, a lot of people do not go down to byu, but I did. I followed the voice of the Spirit. And I loved my experience at byu.

Kirk Strong [00:13:55] Byu. My mission. Then my experience at BYU transformed me, helped me, molded me into a much better person than I was before I went on my mission and even a much better person than I was before I went to byu. I had a very positive experience at byu.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Okay. And any other thing we should know about your testimony, your faith, your commitment to the church prior to marriage?

Kirk Strong [00:14:23] I. Nope. Had both feet in. I was True Blue Mormon, and I probably knew my doctrine better than most people.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Would you have called yourself a Bruce Armaconkie Mormon?

Kirk Strong [00:14:35] Then I'd call myself a Bensonite.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] What did you mean by that?

Kirk Strong [00:14:39] President Benson? He was my hero. Why? Well, what I always put together with. I put the two halves together. The political side, the government side with the church side, and all that comes along with the Covenant of America. I also put it with the church. So President Benson was the one that really spoke out about the Constitution of the US and the Book of Mormon. And so I put it all together. And so I laugh because I know that Benson was not well received by everybody in the church, but he was well received by me, except for one thing. But I. And maybe we can talk about that later. He did something that I found out that President Kimball was not in favor of. And I didn't even know it at the time. I didn't know there was this little.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] What was that?

Kirk Strong [00:15:29] Well, his. His Talk on the 14 fundamentals. Okay. Of.

Karen Strong [00:15:33] But we can talk.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] We can talk about that later.

Kirk Strong [00:15:35] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] But what a lot of people, you know, were frustrated with. And, and there's Tom Benson's cousin of mine, so I'll admit that I.

Kirk Strong [00:15:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Yeah, I'm in the Benson line because my. My mom was born in Franklin, Idaho, which is where he's from. And my ancestors go back to Ezra T. Benson. But a lot of people that are frustrated with him or that struggle with some of his teachings, it had to do with the John Birch Society and sort of anti communism and a lot of that conspiratorial thinking about New World Order. Were you into that sort of thing?

Kirk Strong [00:16:13] Well, I actually team taught the young adults up in Parley Stake with Cleon Skousen.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] So you knew Cleon Skousen?

Kirk Strong [00:16:19] Oh, yeah, I knew Cleon.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] What was he like?

Kirk Strong [00:16:20] Oh, he was great.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Tell us, give our listeners a little bit of a background on Cleon Skousen.

Kirk Strong [00:16:25] Cleon Skousen was basically a historian, scriptorian,

John Dehlin [00:16:30] but he's a police officer too, right?

Kirk Strong [00:16:31] Oh, he was everything. And he had, he had this really endearing personality and he had a really good grasp on history and he loved American history and he loved the Book of Mormon. And I actually took one of their courses. He let me take one of their courses free for a while and I, I thoroughly enjoyed and I learned a lot about the, the American government and the Constitution through his courses. I disagreed with him on some of his doctrine in his books on the first thousand, second thousand, third thousand years. I thought he took some liberties that probably. But as a, as a person I loved him.

Kirk Strong [00:17:13] I loved his faith, I loved his character and I enjoyed teaching with him. So yeah, that was, you know, Skousen Benson, those types of things. But I also was really hooked into Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce Orman Conkey. So like I said, I really tried to get really close to the doctrine as best that I could, but with that was a very strong component of an appreciation for the constitution of the

John Dehlin [00:17:43] U.S. okay, and what, what role did you think Skazm was trying to play in the church over his career?

Kirk Strong [00:17:51] I think he was trying to inform people. I think he, I think he felt people were very ignorant and, and they didn't have a great appreciation for two things. They didn't have a great appreciation for their liberties that they were, they were going to squander and, and he also thought they didn't have appreciation for, for how the Book of Mormon was connected to the Constitution in principle.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] All right, so anything else? So you co taught constitutional things. Does that mean that you sort of shared some of those views about the Trilateral Commission and the Rothschilds and.

Kirk Strong [00:18:32] No, some of the stuff that would

John Dehlin [00:18:34] have been published in None Dare Call Conspiracy or the Naked Communist. Is that part of your beliefs?

Kirk Strong [00:18:39] No. In fact, he was not big into those things things at that particular time and if he was, he never shared them with us. It was mostly the books, the first thousand, second thousand years, third thousand years, those types of things. And what led up to him writing it was mostly his history. I viewed him as a historian.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Okay, and did you ever get a sense that the brethren had any discomfort with what he was teaching or with his profile as a non general authority?

Kirk Strong [00:19:11] Well, I knew he took some liberties that most of us would have taken and I knew that would get him into deep water and frankly, I Saw a couple of things, liberties, as I've already mentioned, that I probably wouldn't have taken. And I think that he made some errors in his book, but I never doubted his testimony and his enthusiasm for the Book of Mormon and for the Constitution and the liberties that we had. And I was. I was glad to be around him. He was a man of great faith.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] All right, so I'm told by my listeners that my audio is coming in a little loud. So, Cody, you'll have to let me know if. If it's better. I just turned it down a little bit. Let me know if I've turned it down to your. Your audience.

Kirk Strong [00:19:54] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Okay. All right, so, Karen, let's turn to you.

Karen Strong [00:19:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Why don't you tell us a little bit about your LDS upbringing.

Karen Strong [00:20:02] Okay. I was born the eighth child of 10. My father was a veterinarian in the Air Force, which is kind of unique. And to have 10 children in the Air Force was also kind of a unique thing. My. My parents were very, very devout.

Karen Strong [00:20:24] My father had. Well, you know, we were a strong family that would move all over the world. And as we would come into an area, you know, there maybe be a branch or a small ward struggling, and to have a family with 10 children move in was kind of exciting.

Karen Strong [00:20:44] And all of my brothers and sisters were married in the temple. Were all the boys served missions, two girls of the six girls served missions. The church was everything to us. And just a little bit of history, as far as my genealogy that might be interesting is on my mother's side, I am a great, great, great granddaughter of Brigham Young, the Steve Young line. So my mother and Steve Young's father are first cousins and also come through Edward Partridge.

Karen Strong [00:21:24] Edward Partridge's daughter was sealed to Joseph Smith and then taken as a wife by Brigham Young. And so that's the line that I come through on that side. And then on my father's side is the Martin Willey handcart Company. The two companies, one from each company, married, and that's what had come through there. So very pioneer stock.

Karen Strong [00:21:48] Always my parents, their whole life was oriented toward serving in the church, and the church meant the gospel to me. If you said the church, that was the same thing as the gospel to me. And I was very spiritually inclined. All of my life.

Karen Strong [00:22:06] I would describe myself as obedient in heart. Always wanted to do what I thought God wanted to do, wanted me to do. I always believed. But when I did hit about that age of 14, I remember having the question in my mind.

Karen Strong [00:22:25] I believe that this is all true. But I know that a lot of this is because I've been taught this. And so I want to know for myself whether this is true. And So I, at 14 years old, my first real experience where I prayed and got an answer from God was I wanted to know if the Book of Mormon was true.

Karen Strong [00:22:48] And so I spent weeks reading it and praying before I would read it, pray after asking God if he would let me know if it was, was, was true. And he did answer me on that.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] How was it? What did the answer, how did it come?

Karen Strong [00:23:05] The way it came was not an emotional, which is something now I've since learned is actually kind of a correct thing. I don't think that God speaking to you really is emotion based. I believe it's pure intelligence based. And it was actually kind of more a conversation with the Lord as I would read it. You know, I was kind of waiting for an emotional response and then I would ask the Lord, Heavenly Father, is this true?

Karen Strong [00:23:32] And over the process of that few weeks that I was doing it, I noticed that my faith in Jesus Christ and in God was enhanced. It was increased. I had more confidence in them and more belief in them and more desires to follow them.

Karen Strong [00:23:53] And on the final night that I was kind of praying about it, I, it was sort of a conversation where I said, heavenly Father, I, I notice that I believe in you more when I read this. And it was just kind of like a voice that came to me and said that that is the fruits of the Spirit. This is your witness that it is true.

Karen Strong [00:24:19] And, but it was so strong. That sounds insignificant, but it was so strong. And that all of my life it's been the foundation. I've never, never ever questioned the Book of Mormon. And then I subsequently prayed about Joseph Smith. And perhaps I could have just made the logical connection that, well, if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was an actual prophet. But I wanted to know for sure if he had seen God. And after studying things out one day I was reading the section where John Taylor talks about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith when he describes the part of Joseph falling out of the window and crying, my Lord, my God.

Karen Strong [00:25:00] I know that there's question about that. Some people say, well, that's a Masonic cry that he was making out to them. But that's neither here nor there to me at the time when I read those words, it was very clearly spoken to me.

Karen Strong [00:25:18] Joseph Smith knew God just very, very directly. And so that was kind of the roots of my first real experience with God answering my prayers. And then I had your typical upbringing, typical kind of Mormon family where we were very goal oriented, achievement oriented. All of us went to Brigham Young University, except for one sister that went to Rick's on a running scholarship, and everybody else went on pretty much academic scholarship to byu.

Karen Strong [00:25:51] And then while I was at byu, toward the end, I studied communications and journalism. And when I was about 20 years old, or, yeah, 20, I started to get promptings that I was supposed to go on a mission, which I never wanted to do.

Karen Strong [00:26:09] And I had a high school sweetheart that I had sent on a mission, and I was determined that that's who I was going to marry. And I kept getting these promptings for about eight months that I needed to go on this mission. And I just didn't want to do that because I knew that that would mean I wouldn't marry this guy. And so finally, at one point, I was listening to General Conference, and when I was listening to General Conference, I kept hearing this, trust to the Lord, trust in the Lord. And the talks weren't really about that, but I kept feeling this trust in the Lord.

Karen Strong [00:26:47] And the next day at family home meeting, my father said, you know, I wanted to talk about General Conference. He said, when I was listening to General Conference, I kept feeling the impression that the Lord was trying to tell us to trust in him. And as soon as my dad said that, I heard a strong voice in my mind say, trust in the Lord and go on the mission.

Karen Strong [00:27:09] And so that night I was crying, praying to the Lord, I really didn't want to do this. Why are you telling me to do this? Can you just kind of give me one more sign, one more answer, tell me I have to do it. I really don't want to do it. And then I heard a voice say, ye that must be commanded in all things are slothful servants. And I just broke down and I just knew that that's what I had to do. And that's what he wanted. And he to wanted. He wanted me to do it willingly and not out of being compelled. And so I served in the Netherlands Belgium mission and came home and taught at the MTC and graduated in journalism.

Karen Strong [00:27:50] And last semester byu, still not married, decided to apply to law school, came home and lived in Salt Lake and commuted down to Provo. And. That's when I end up meeting my husband. But I studied for, took the LSAT and got accepted to the U of U and byu and.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] But you didn't go.

Karen Strong [00:28:19] Didn't go because as my husband said, we were really kind of Kimball and Benson, follow the prophet kind of people.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] And what did they say about women working outside the home?

Karen Strong [00:28:30] They said, start your families. And they said, you know, don't. And then, mother, stay home with your children. And so I was very, very passionate about that because my whole life was oriented toward follow the prophet. Absolutely. And nothing. The gospel meant everything to me. It was truly all that mattered to me. And so, yes, I. I got my acceptance letters the same week that my husband proposed to me. And because he worked at byu, I could have actually gone to BYU Law School for free. And I turned it down and started my family right away. In fact, got honeymoon baby and stayed at home. Mother. But I did end up going and get a master's degree with that free tuition early on when I had some infertility issues going on. And then I also did help start a charter school. So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Okay, thank you. So one thing that I think is really interesting, Kirk, is, is the fact that you worked for BYU for so many years, and eventually, as I, as I read in your notes, became kind of the director of admissions. And you taught at BYU Book of Mormon for 15 years. So you will have known, I'm sure, a lot of the major faculty at BYU and probably have rubbed shoulders, maybe even with President Packer and many of the other sort of CES level general authorities. Is that true?

Kirk Strong [00:30:13] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Can you talk about your experiences with President Packer, with Holland or Bednar or any of those leaders? Did you ever get a sense for them or have experiences that people would find interesting, you know, positive or negative? We're not looking for dirt. We're just looking for experiences that are noteworthy. Or if there's nothing noteworthy, that's fine too.

Kirk Strong [00:30:34] We organized a grassroots committee between the church schools. That was. That we just started because the, the person that hired me at BYU actually, after a year, got pirated away up to Ricks College. And so he was the new dean of admissions up there. And then my sister actually ended up being the admissions director over at LDS Business College. And so we decided to join hands and start to, instead of just have outreach, working for school relations in the admissions department, outreach programs and firesides for the youth, just for specific institutions. We started to combine our efforts and combined our meetings, and then we brought in some seminary personnel too.

Kirk Strong [00:31:18] And eventually it became so popular that they, they finally formalized it. And this started way back in the 80s, and it's, it's still going today. This, this committee and on this committee, it came under the auspices of the head of Education.

Kirk Strong [00:31:37] And remember, at one time that was Elder Eyring was. And so we, we've had some experiences with some of the brethren, particularly even with Elder Bednar when he was the, the president of Ricks College then. And I was there in the thick of it when they transitioned into, into byu, Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Any experiences with them as it relates to your beliefs now and kind of the, you know, and if you don't have any, that's fine, but that's kind of what I'm asking is if you had any interactions with them that as you reflect back with your. With your current beliefs are noteworthy in any direction. Positive, negative.

Kirk Strong [00:32:21] Yeah, you know, I, about the, the 12 and, and the 70s. No, I can't say there was anything that was extremely. Would be of extreme interest. It's just quite typical.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Okay. You know, did you, did you, you know, perceive them to be inspired of God, prophets of the Lord? Did you ever receive witnesses that they were the Lord's servants, any of that kind of stuff?

Kirk Strong [00:32:48] Well, I certainly saw them on it, in it outside of General Conference, saw them in a different light, in a different position, but I never, I never doubted their, their role, never doubted their authority.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] Okay. All right. So. So you guys, I'm assuming, led in, in many ways, a typical orthodox Mormon life. And so what would either of you want to share about your orthodox Mormon life that's sort of central to your story as it relates to your beliefs changing or your relationship with the church changing? Anything else about your marriage or your family life or your relationship with the church prior to things starting to change?

Marriage, Callings, and Deep Church Involvement

Kirk Strong [00:33:40] Well, when Karen and I got married, we both had something in common. And what was in common is our knowledge of the Gospel. We're not trying to tout or, you know, and to brag about ourselves, but we usually got called to be the gospel doctrine teachers or Relief Society teacher or something like that, because we, we usually could answer all the questions that teachers were asking. And so they, they would just get kind of bored of us answering the questions that you, you teach the course then. And, but we got to the point that we heard people discussing doctrine in priesthood and Relief Society and young women's young Mans, where they, they didn't really understand what the church had already positioned themselves on.

Kirk Strong [00:34:34] So Karen and I got together and we came up with a book. It was called His Servant's Voice. And what it did, it took 72 questions that people seem to argue in church over, and we answered all 72 of those questions with the words of the prophets by three witnesses. And if we couldn't find a prophet, then we would bring in a possible.

Kirk Strong [00:35:00] An apostle. But most of them we answered with, like, you know, for instance, should females go on mission? Should. How. How many children should you have? When do you have children? What were some of the other, well, controversial issues about creation and evolution and all. So we put this whole book together. It took us two years, and we had it. We had a lockdown on doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Around what year was this book were you guys working on?

Karen Strong [00:35:35] This was. I actually brought it. This.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Oh, did you?

Kirk Strong [00:35:37] I didn't.

Karen Strong [00:35:37] Yeah, I did bring it. This was the binder in it. It was called His Servant's Voice. We submitted it for publication. Got. Oh, there's lots of stuff like that. We don't. We don't need it. But that. Yes. So between 2000. Well, no, this is. This is like the latest version of it, but we actually were working on it. We put it together about 1995 through 96. And then I would add to it as things. And so my latest addition would have been 2004, but when we were really, you know, giving it as Christmas presents to our siblings and so forth was in around 1996.

Karen Strong [00:36:16] And I would say, if you're asking, is there anything else that would help you understand the foundation, I would say we were about as mainstream traditional Mormons, conservative as you could possibly get. I would say that Scripture Nazis. Yes. I would say.

Karen Strong [00:36:38] And this is, you know, now I chuckle. I chuckle about it. But now I would term us as very, very much Pharisees. We knew all the letters of the law. Right. I knew that for Strength of Youth pamphlet. Inside out, backwards and forwards.

Karen Strong [00:36:57] I lived that to the tee, the shorts to the knee, the, you know, the sleeves. I think I put in our thing. I had never. We both never drank caffeine. I remember once tasting a Mountain Dew when I was 16 and I felt guilty. I almost thought I needed to go to the bishop.

Karen Strong [00:37:15] Sabbath day for us. Very serious. Stayed in our Sunday clothes all day, you know, didn't watch TV on the Sabbath. Always very careful what we listened to, watched. Oh, never miss. Visiting, teaching, home teaching. Just very, you know, never would have had facial hair. So this is a big deal for him to have this beard.

Karen Strong [00:37:41] I would have never let my boys grow their hair out. Long white shirt. Absolutely. To church. All of those things you're taught that they equate to righteousness. Right. That's. That's kind of, you know, a symbol of your relationship to God.

Karen Strong [00:37:59] And so we were very much like Kirk said earlier, the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet that President Benson had given as a talk. That's what we put at the front of this book. It was our creed, it was very much our belief that you could not be led astray. And it was that conviction, being so devoted to that concept that actually caused us to go the direction where we are. Because we knew what they had taught. We knew what the leaders had taught so well that any change from what they taught was instantly noticeable to us. Because, because I could, I could tell you every General Conference what, what they had said, where they said it.

Karen Strong [00:38:48] And so a deviation, even the slightest deviation, I would notice. And for us, we're going, wait, God, God is not a changing God. So if you're speaking God's word, why are you changing?

John Dehlin [00:39:03] So, you know, by, by the time in the late 90s that you guys are working on your book, you know, we have three editions of Mormon Doctrine, we have all the Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith. You know, we have modern day Revelation, we have the General Conference talks.

John Dehlin [00:39:25] What made you think you needed to do anything else? Why not just refer people to the books that had already been printed? Refer people to the Journal of Discourses as necessary. But you know, there's this, there's this idea that I once heard, like President Hinckley asking someone who called you to this, you know, this idea that you're not a self appointed scriptorian, you're not a self appointed authority in the church. Leave the doctrinal interpretation to the brethren. That's not your job. That's, you know, stepping overboard. We've got all these books that, that the prophets have written that tells people more than what they need.

Kirk Strong [00:40:06] Well, they kept calling us to important positions. I mean, I taught gospel doctrine probably for over 15, well, close to 20 years.

Karen Strong [00:40:15] You taught Book of Mormon at BYU for 15 years.

Kirk Strong [00:40:18] And people would come to you, they would come to you. Most human beings want to take the shortcut instead of go get the book, find it. I mean, remember we didn't have laptops back then. Search. It was not as easy. They wanted the shortcut. Just go to Kirk and Karen and ask them what they know. And then, and then if you didn't like it, then you.

Karen Strong [00:40:42] I will say this. He would always, when people would come over and say, I have a question for you, he would always list those books. I remember him teaching in Gospel Doctrine. He'd say, here's the list of books that you should know and understand if you want to understand the gospel. But I was going to add on my mission.

Karen Strong [00:41:01] I had this little book where I thought, okay, I'm going to write down the things that are most important to me, what matters the most in my life. And the very first thing that I put in this book was give diligence to have your calling and election made sure. For if you do these things, you shall never fail. And then I list what Second Peter says and then what Joseph Smith said about calling election. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins and is baptized for the remission of his sins, and receives the Holy Ghost, which is the first comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness and living by every word of God.

Karen Strong [00:41:40] And the Lord will soon say to him, son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling. Election made sure. Then it will be his privilege to receive the other comforter. To receive the other comforter is to have Christ appear to him, to see the visions of eternity. And then so what, what would the

John Dehlin [00:42:04] date of the, what would the date of that be?

Karen Strong [00:42:06] That would have been 1989.

Kirk Strong [00:42:08] See, I'd already established mine well before that based upon the same.

Karen Strong [00:42:12] So my point was that so as we were. We knew that this, this was, this is what I wanted. This is what he wanted. And when you're studying the gospel and you're seeking, you're. You're starting to go, okay, this is getting stale. Something's not. There is more. This is just like a dead. This is the dead end.

Kirk Strong [00:42:33] Yeah. And in all honesty, I think we both understood that it was a life long process. It wasn't going to come overnight, this calling an election. But we also knew that it could and should happen in the flesh. And we were shooting for that goal and we were doing it through kind of the, like she said, we thought,

Karen Strong [00:43:03] the obedience by being a Pharisee. That's, that was our first.

Kirk Strong [00:43:06] We had a checklist, so to speak, I guess, you know, how many things can you check off and that should bring you closer to God, Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] So yeah, I was this interest in having that personal witness with Christ. Did it come before any exposure to Denver snuffer?

Karen Strong [00:43:29] Oh, yes, 1989. I don't, I don't read Denver Snuffer. I read his first book. Book, right when it comes out. He published his first book April of 2006. And I got it from a ward member and read it August of 2006. So just a few months after it came out, I got my hands on it in 2006. Right. So that's.

Kirk Strong [00:43:52] So you're 17 or a decade ahead of that.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] And so what are you reading? What are you reading that makes you write that in that book? You probably told us. But tell me, tell us again, what? Study.

Karen Strong [00:44:02] I'm on my mission and I'm studying teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, and

Kirk Strong [00:44:06] I'm studying just the scriptures, D&C 84, DC 93. You know that they're. They're all inviting you to see the face of the Lord. The exact words.

Karen Strong [00:44:18] I knew those terms, you know, even from my teenage years, I knew those terms. And it was just where now you're just really making this part of yourself that this is what I want. This is what the gospel's about.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] So I'm just. I'm just gonna pause for a second and I'm thinking about this. And there's like, there's different types of members, right? There's the type of member. Well, there's Jack Mormons and people who never really believed or never cared. Then there's members that, you know, are just kind of social Mormons, maybe they believe a little bit here and there, but they don't really take the doctrine too seriously. It's more spiritual at a meta level or highly social. Then there's Mormons that like, yeah, they read their scriptures and they care and they study.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] But, you know, it's just like, you know, whatever the brethren say kind of trumps everything else. Whatever is being said now is what's most important. What happened in doctrine, you know, what happens in, you know, in the journal discourses or past prophets. You know, maybe it got written down wrong. Maybe things have changed. Who knows? But they kind of focus on the modern. And I remember Brent Topp, and maybe it was the 14 fundamentals of the Prophet speech from Astab Benson, where they just start saying, hey, forget about what was said in the past. Whatever the current prophet is, you know, it's doctrine if it's words coming out of the current prophet's mouth, because that's doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] And then there's kind of what some on the feed are calling fundamentalist Mormons, which are like, no, no, no. They're studying journal discourses. They're studying times and seasons and early publications, and they want it all to make sense. They want it all to tie together. They're taking it all very, very seriously. And it seems like that's what you guys were. Is that right?

Karen Strong [00:46:11] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [00:46:11] Right.

Karen Strong [00:46:11] Although the term fundamentalist, you know, whenever you use that word, people's mind always goes to polygamy. But so that. Absolutely not. But, but very much staying consistent with an unchanging God. Right. And, and having believed very profoundly, the concept of the brethren cannot lead you astray. Specifically the prophet cannot lead you astray. Right. Taking that to heart, then there must be consistency because you cannot change doctrines midstream because otherwise that means they were leading somebody astray.

Kirk Strong [00:46:47] Previously, if you went in and read that library that we talked about, that was a strange approach to the Gospel, is that the prophet cannot lead you astray. When previous prophets, particularly Bruce R. McConkie, had warned the people that they have to test a prophet through the Spirit and through his words and through the Scriptures and that nobody's infallible, this infallibility actually is more modern.

Karen Strong [00:47:24] And he taught to always that the standard, the reason the Scriptures are called the standard works was they were the standard. So this modern. Brent Topp, did you say this modern teaching that we have and they teach it over at BYU where whatever they say today trumps the Scriptures. That is. No, to me. That doesn't work. The Scriptures are the standard. And it doesn't mean there can't be things that are non doctrinal that pertain only to our day. I'm not saying that, but. But if it's a doctrinal issue, that would be true in the days of Adam and true in our day. It doesn't change. And there are issues that definitely came up that we discovered where there were too many changes happening.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] So, Kirk, you're pulling out a binder. What are you looking for?

Kirk Strong [00:48:21] Well, I'm looking for that statement where that letter where Bruce R. McConkie addresses Eugene, England and the letter became public and he points out that a prophet is not always a prophet, that they make mistakes, they make errors.

Kirk Strong [00:48:45] And I thought it was fascinating that all of a sudden we've moved to where prophets can't make any errors, they can't make any mistake. He, he says, Joseph Smith so pointedly taught a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are man and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the standard works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the church and another thing in the days of his success, successors, truth is eternal and does not vary.

Kirk Strong [00:49:30] Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord. A wise student do not build their philosophies of life on quotations of individuals even though those quotations come from presidents of the church. Wise people anchor their doctrine on the standard works.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] All right, and I'm just going to remake the point that yes. And there's a whole chunk of church members that kind of don't care.

Karen Strong [00:50:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] They're, they're just going along with it. Listen to the modern leaders because that's all they've got. And they can basically take any discrepancy and kind of ignore it and just say, well that's, that's problems with history, problems with the past, people's individual error. The only real true and living thing, the living waters as I've heard it described is the modern day prophecy and the modern day revelation. So you guys were different Mormons than. Than a lot of the people around you. Did you realize that at the time?

Karen Strong [00:50:40] I did, yeah.

Kirk Strong [00:50:42] Well, yeah, we always ran into people, people that tried to argue with us and you could tell that all we had to do is start pulling out references and from previous to show that there was some inconsistency. And I would like to say in the 90s, in the 1990s is when we particularly myself first and then Karen came in left later, I started to notice that things were changing dramatically. Positions on certain doctrines and certain procedures and policies and which ones.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] Which were the ones that really got you? Either either that had changed that you've noticed before or that you noticed changing. Each of you give the top three doctrinal issues that were of biggest concern to you even before you discovered snuffer stuff.

Karen Strong [00:51:43] Okay, I'll start just by. Because I had one of the first big experiences. You know, all through the 90s, we, we would to ourselves never in front of our children because we were taught you never speak negative about the Church or the Brethren or anything. But we began to both say the church is an apostasy. We would say it to each other.

Kirk Strong [00:52:09] Yes.

Karen Strong [00:52:09] By the mid. Oh even when we were writing this book it was, it was quite well. Okay, so my first experience was in nineteen nineteen ninety four. Okay, so we've got a river just graduated from BYU. So you have to.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] September 6th had just been excommunicated. I'm just getting it in my mind.

Karen Strong [00:52:29] So we get married in 1991. I have my first child 1992. And then I had these years of infertility and I am young women's president at the time. And remember, Die Hard, Kimball and Benson, Remember I just turned down law school to have a child. All this, right. The accolades of the world for obedience. Right. So this would be a very tender topic to me. Right? Unchanging God, role of women.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Because you had sacrificed a lot.

Karen Strong [00:52:59] Right? Right. So I go, I go, yeah, to me it's not really a sacrifice, it's a blessing. But. But you get the concept. To the world, they're say. They'd say, what in the world? This girl's crazy. So I went to the first general conference where President Benson had just died and Hunter was the new prophet and Elaine Jack was the president at the time. And it was a whole conference on self reliance. Okay. And a certain woman in the presidency gave a talk. I don't want to say names because I. I don't want to. I'm not trying to be negative, but a talk was given by one of the women in the presidency, and the talk was about the polar opposite of everything that Kimball and Benson had ever said.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Chico?

Karen Strong [00:53:47] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] Tell us, tell us your name.

Karen Strong [00:53:51] Jake Okazaki.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Which a lot of progressive and liberal Mormons love.

Kirk Strong [00:53:55] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] She's like their hero.

Karen Strong [00:53:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Jaco is like the liberal Mormons only hope so.

Karen Strong [00:54:03] And I want to say also, as we're speaking, people need to know that we don't represent the movement, meaning we're a couple in the movement. Not everybody has our background and our thought processes. Okay. But anyway, so Jacob gives this talk, and when I come out of it, there's this grandmother that's about 70 years old that had 10 children, and she's saying, wow, I think that maybe I did the wrong thing. I got married and had children and maybe I'm supposed to go get a degree now.

Karen Strong [00:54:33] The few days after that conference, every woman that I knew who kind of patterned their life the way I did was really disturbed by this talk. They felt like, what happened to what President Benson and Kimball said? Right. Then I got on a phone call. I made a phone call because this was the same time the Lord was telling me I had to go get a master's degree. Right? And I called this woman in my ward that had a master's in English and was teaching at byu, and she was a progressive, she was a liberal feminist, okay. And I get on the phone with her and she tells me, oh, wasn't that just the best conference?

Karen Strong [00:55:15] And she said, it was so great to hear under this new prophet finally getting past the things of President Benson out of her mouth. And I was just like, I knew it. I knew that that's what, you know, it was like confirming my. My gut instinct. And so this was back in the day when you had to go, and they would. If you were in a presidency, you went at general conference time to the Relief Society building, and you.

Karen Strong [00:55:40] You had this training. And so I remember just crying about this to my parents. And my parents were so afraid, like, don't lose your testimony. Don't lose your testimony. And I said, I'm not. I'm not. And I went to that Relief Society building, and I just thought, if I. If. If I feel the prompting, I'm going to stop by Elaine Jack's office.

Karen Strong [00:56:01] And so I did, and her secretary was there. And I told the secretary what was bothering me. I said, this talk really put a lot of women in conflict. And I explained it to her, and she said, well, I think you have some really valid points. I think you ought to talk to Sister Jack. Totally caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting that. I just kind of wanted to voice some confusion.

Karen Strong [00:56:19] And I got invited in to speak to Sister Jack, and she, of course, said, well, we can't. That's not what we intended from the message, and we can't control how it comes across. And then she said to me, she said, well, this is not what. When we talked about continuing lifelong learning, we weren't talking about everybody having to go get this advanced degree.

Karen Strong [00:56:43] She goes, I don't even have a degree anyway. And I said, oh, really? I didn't know that. I didn't know that about you. I think most of the women don't know that you don't even have a degree. And she said. And her response was, well, if they would read my books, then they would know.

Karen Strong [00:57:01] So that was that experience. But that's an example of what. One of the first things where I started to say there's a discrepancy, like, the church is changing. They're changing from what they said before to what they're saying now. And that's not something that would resonate with everybody. But understanding my background, you could probably see why that would. That would, you know, be something that I would pick up on.

Doctrinal Doubts and Questions About Church History

John Dehlin [00:57:25] Any other doctrines for you that were problems?

Karen Strong [00:57:34] Let's see, there's a couple. Yes, yes. I wanted to mention the Adam God theory because we were people who had studied so deeply into things. We were very familiar with this teaching by Brigham Young. And for those that aren't familiar with it. I'll just basically say the bottom line idea of it is that Brigham Young taught that Adam is also God and the Father of Christ. Okay, that's a very simplified explanation. But here's the thing.

Karen Strong [00:58:09] Brigham Young clearly taught this as doctrine. In fact, he even states, and I brought the quote, but I won't. I won't pull it out. But he states that he received it as revelation from God and clearly states its doctrine. And Eliza R. Snow even says the greatest oracle ever oracled by God is what Brigham Young taught in the Adam God theory. Okay, so Even when the St. George temple first opened, the lecture at the veil contained the Adam God theory.

Karen Strong [00:58:46] It wasn't a theory. It was taught as doctrine. So understanding my belief that, well, doctrine. If what we say today is that you can't be led astray. Right. You can't be led astray by the prophet. And if Brigham Young is declaring something as doctrine and he's saying it's a revelation, then that should be true, that it was the truth. Right. A true prophet would be teaching the truth. Well, jump forward 100 years, and you have President Kimball and Bruce R. McConkie and Mark E. Peterson all giving bold statements decrying this doctrine. In fact, they use. This is where the word theory came. They start to use the word theory associated.

Karen Strong [00:59:36] And I thought, well, that's pretty crafty, you know, to put into the minds that this was a supposed. Supposed thing that was taught. In fact, Kimball said there's kind of. This is a bad paraphrase, but there's kind of this. This rumor out there that early brethren used to teach this theory. And I'm going, it's not a rumor. It was taught as doctrine. And then he basically calls it blasphemy. Bruce Armakank. He says anybody who. Who believed in that isn't worthy of salvation. I mean, it's pretty bold stuff.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] And. And you've alluded to it. But. But just briefly explain Adam God theory exactly what it is for those who don't know.

Karen Strong [01:00:23] Okay, so I've got. If you give me just a second, I have a quote from Brigham Young.

Kirk Strong [01:00:33] Look at it for a minute, and I'll just tell you real quick my. My two doctrine that. And then come back to that, so you can refresh your mind on that. I did not like the changing of the temple ordinances in 1990. That really bothered me because to me, it cut out some very important doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Okay, so I have to stop you there as well. I went through the temple prior to 1990. And for me, some of the. We'll just call them penalties. We won't be more graphic than that out of respect for those who, you know, those are sensitive issues for that. Those things were really disturbing for me. So just like Chaco was the hope for many progressive women and feminists and men, removing some of those things from the temple ceremony was actually something that was welcomed. So that was not your experience, Kirk?

Kirk Strong [01:01:24] No. In fact, I wish I could talk more about my feelings, but I know the temple's sacred to all of us, and I want to keep it that way, but I thought they eliminated doctrine when they did that. And then the other thing that had bothered me in the 90s is I could see how curriculum started to be diluted, and particularly Argyl calling an election. It started on a slippery slope where they were downplaying it, and it was starting to disappear. And actually, CES instructors and BYU instructors, in essence, learned the hard way that you don't really talk about that issue anymore.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] What about blood atonement? Did it bug you that that was de. Emphasized?

Karen Strong [01:02:25] No. No?

Kirk Strong [01:02:26] No.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] You're okay with that?

Karen Strong [01:02:28] Yeah. Because by the time I understood anything about blood atonement, I was already figuring out, these guys are going all over the place. So by the time I really put some thought into that, I had already was able to say, well, this was totally a fabrication of Brigham Young. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Sure.

Karen Strong [01:02:51] I didn't study it. I was familiar. I remember hearing about that term when I was a teenager, but it wasn't something I had delved into until I was much further along on the path.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] What about. What about polygamy? Were you guys bugged that polygamy had been changed? Because there were. If you're going to be consistent. There were several quotes from early church leaders saying polygamy was a requirement for exaltation. Did that bug you guys at all?

Kirk Strong [01:03:18] Not at that time.

Karen Strong [01:03:19] Not at that time, no. Because. Because it's a process. See, you don't. You don't take. When you have a paradigm that you've lived with all of your life, it doesn't just overnight, in an instant. Well, maybe for some people. For us, it was not overnight, in an instant. Shattered. We tried to hang on to this devotion that we had for the brethren and a trust in them and what they said as long as we could. You get the questions beginning. But it takes years to break down all of that. And so it was many years before I had any questions about the polygamy. But that does come. That does come up. It does come up with the manifesto. Yes. In this time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] And I'm just trying to think of other doctrines that I guess there was the whole Gordon B. Hinckley quote when he was asked on Larry King if yes, he become gods. And he kind of backpedaled and said something like, I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. Was that something that struck you guys?

Kirk Strong [01:04:30] There also was the Washington times interview and 1996, I think, where he gave his definition of how revelation works today by the still small voice such as Elijah and said we don't. And it was just. And you got to realize we're true blue Mormons. So this is happening before our eyes and we're trying to be patient with it. We're not trying to accuse anybody directly. We're hoping that the body of leadership that exists out there will kind of reform itself and kind of get each other back on track. You know, I don't have any animosity towards these people. We're just noticing serious changes and the doctrine before our eyes is changed and it continues to change.

Karen Strong [01:05:38] Well, and I wanted to say two things. One was on, you know, the ordinances of the temple for us, and I wish I had brought the quote, but Joseph Smith taught that the ordinances that Adam holds the keys for those ordinances and that no one has the right to change them. And so we, we were. Most LDs think, well, if the first presidency wants to change it, the first president students can change it. I guess that's what God wants. That is what the mainstream LDS has been taught to think.

Karen Strong [01:06:12] And for us, I'm going to put way my weight is going to go on Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith declared he saw God. None of these other later prophets have done that. And so when Joseph Smith says the ordinances, Adam holds those keys and they are not to be altered or changed. And then Isaiah points out that basically there's a curse upon the earth, the Lord's coming in wrath because the ordinances have been changed. And so the more you start to study what's really been taught about the ordinances, the more you say, wow, those shouldn't have been changed. And so for me, like the penalties, for example, to me, I always, the way I looked at everything was if it's in there, there's a message and a reason.

Karen Strong [01:06:59] And God wants me to figure out what that is. And so that's why he was trying to say to take it out. You just removed a truth that I can now no longer Search to ask God, what was the meaning of this? And then the other thing about Hinckley that we noticed under Hinckley was he was the PR president and they hired the Jewish PR firm and it began to.

Karen Strong [01:07:27] It seemed like the church was about marketing Mormonism. Let's see how we can make this popular. That's the intent. The intent was not really about, you know, when I study Christ. He was not about trying to make his message popular. In fact, he said, you will suffer persecution. To follow Christ means you're rejected pretty much. And it seemed like the church was taking us down a road where let's just be like everybody else. Let's just make this so easy to accept. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:08:04] It does. Were you bothered at all at the time with the changes around blacks in the priesthood and racism? Because again, if you're going to say, well, Brigham Young taught it, so it's doctrine potentially, then you have to see the things he said about, you know, blacks being lowly, about them never receiving the priesthood until the second coming, and then some of the really horrible stuff about, you know, sticking a javelin through a mixed race couple. Those were all things that you would have had access to. Did those things bug either of you? That, in other words, were you supportive of a lot of those, what many people view to be racist teachings? And so did those changes bug you as well?

Kirk Strong [01:08:57] That, that, no, that would never bother me at all.

Karen Strong [01:09:00] For some reason. That one. Never.

Kirk Strong [01:09:04] I just, I just assumed that President Kimball had paid the price of

John Dehlin [01:09:13] calling

Kirk Strong [01:09:13] upon the Lord and getting that worked out. And that one didn't bother me.

Karen Strong [01:09:20] But I'll tell you what did bother me when that came to bother me was the church essays that were written, what, 2013.

Kirk Strong [01:09:29] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:09:29] Okay. That's. All right. All right.

John Dehlin [01:09:31] Okay.

Kirk Strong [01:09:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] Okay. So I, you know, I'm not, I guess I'm not trying to call you on the carpet, but I guess I'm just noting that even fundamentalists have to do some picking and choosing. Because you, you notice that in many instances, the Book of Mormon even contradicts many of Joseph Smith's own teachings later in Nauvoo. And so maybe you guys would agree that it's hard to figure out exactly what the pure true doctrine is, because even if you say, okay, Brigham Young, after Brigham Young, ignore that, but if Joseph or Brigham said it, then it's good. You'll find Joseph and Brigham potentially contradicting. You'll find Brigham potentially contradicting himself.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] You'll find potentially Joseph Smith contradicting himself and especially as you see Joseph Smith's doctrine evolve from the Book of Mormon Kirtland era of the early 1830s into the early 1840s, where some would say Joseph was really starting to innovate. Can you guys acknowledge that there's some complexity and some picking and choosing that goes on, even for people that are trying to. Trying to keep the doctrine pure?

Karen Strong [01:10:48] Well, I would like to say something about that. It's really. And I kind of referred to this already, but for us, it was a journey from the most present back meaning. The first contradictions we were seeing was just with the most recent.

Karen Strong [01:11:06] It was the Benson and Kimball teachings and counter to what we thought the Scriptures were teaching. And that was what we centered on for years. And then it was much later that then it filtered back to the Wilford Woodruff stuff. And then you go back to the Brigham Young and you start to see the contradictions there. And you only take one topic at a time because your mind can only.

Karen Strong [01:11:38] When your whole world is being called into question, you really can only focus on one thing at a time. And I would say that for me, I don't see the contradictions that you are. I have a whole other new paradigm now. I don't see the contradictions in Joseph Smith at all because I have a whole new understanding of church history.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] Okay, well, we can cover that.

Karen Strong [01:12:04] So I would say yes, but no, because I don't view. I think Joe, Brigham Young began to innovate. I think it starts to go off with Brigham Young, not with Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] So maybe for you, it was. It was kind of Brigham Young who took things off the rails.

Karen Strong [01:12:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:21] I'm turning up my audio a bit because I'm getting feedback from our listening audience that my audio isn't loud enough. So I've turned it up. And if it's too loud, I hope you guys will let me know. And if it's loud enough, I hope you'll let me know. Okay. But that's. That's fair.

Kirk Strong [01:12:39] So if I need to take a break real quick, can I just step out while you talk to her?

John Dehlin [01:12:43] Yeah, yeah, that's not a problem. Yep. Okay.

Karen Strong [01:12:48] So.

Noticing Institutional Changes and Marketing Shift

John Dehlin [01:12:49] So to kind of continue the narrative a little bit, you guys are noticing in the late 90s and early 2000s that the churches more focused on marketing. Gordon B. Hinckley is, for some, a PR profit. You're noticing these discrepancies. You don't like the church softening some of its stances?

Karen Strong [01:13:09] City Creek was a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] Yeah. What. So what comes next in your evolution?

Karen Strong [01:13:15] Okay, so I have notes for myself, so I have to see. So the next thing was for us was diluting some of the curriculum issues. So you're seeing the contradiction in changing. Right. Changing of things. But then it was also to notice a watering down, I would say, of the teachings. For example, one of the key things to understand in the Book of Mormon would be to understand that we, including the LDS Church members, are actually the Gentiles that are referred to in the Book of Mormon. If you don't understand that concept and you start to exclude yourself from being identified as a Gentile, you miss the message of the Book of Mormon.

Karen Strong [01:14:15] And there was this whole absence of that teaching, which is huge because you have things said in second Nephi 28 and in Mormon chapter eight, which directly implicate the church. And directly, as far as saying we're off. I mean, Second Nephi says that we'll teach all is well in Zion. Yea, Zion prospereth. All is well.

Karen Strong [01:14:47] Mormon8, if people aren't familiar with it teaches, why have you polluted the holy church of God? And they're always speaking to the Gentiles. And we tend to go, well, that's

John Dehlin [01:14:56] everybody else, because our patriarchal blessings sort of adopt us into the tribe of Israel.

Karen Strong [01:15:02] Right, right. And there's for me, my understanding now is that some things had to happen, which we can talk about later, because I believe they've now happened. But there are some requirements that would need to occur in order for you to move from a gentile status to a house of Israel. And we've made some assumptions that what Joseph Smith did carried on without interruption, which gives us this feel that, hey, we're all house of Israel. And even though we all have the blood in us, we do all have the blood in us, we are still gentile status until we repent and enter into a covenant with God, which after the death of Joseph Smith, was pretty much not there anymore.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] Okay, so was there anything about your evolution that. That happened prior to you discovering Denver Snuffer's work? Anything else you want to mention before we talk about the first time you. You found his. One of his books?

Kirk Strong [01:16:08] Well, this is an evolution, like you just said. This is evolving over several decades. We go through the 90s, we go through the 2000-2010, very loyal, still very committed to the church. I'm just personally hoping for some reform for some people to. Who get called into key leadership positions that can help straighten this thing out a little bit. Okay. And when Denver Snuffer comes along, there is really Nobody out there that is crystallizing my feelings, putting them into an organized thought pattern such as a book and what has happened.

Kirk Strong [01:17:02] So these are just internal feelings that we have and that we can see things. Things are changing. And then Denver's going to come along and he's going to say, hey, by the way, there's somebody else out there that kind of thinks like you do, that some things have. But neither Denver nor I, nor Karen had any anticipation that that meant that we were going to be separating from the church.

Kirk Strong [01:17:31] No anticipation whatsoever. I love byu. I love the church. I love the culture that it's created. But I couldn't understand why people weren't also observing the changes. For example, I can bring anybody and talk to them and they'll talk about how our government has changed right and left on these principles and these principles. Then you ask them about the church. Oh, no, nothing's changed. Nothing's happening. No, it's. But to me, they're. They're kind of gone down the same road. They've gone down the same road. Okay.

Kirk Strong [01:18:07] So I'm sitting there as though we're lone rangers. Okay. But we're very, very supportive of the church. We believe in Joseph Smith. And I'm not sure I'm going to agree with some of the statements you were making early about Joseph Smith. I. I probably am not going to agree.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] That's fine. We'll talk about it.

Kirk Strong [01:18:27] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:18:28] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [01:18:28] But what I'm saying is that when I want to make sure you understand that when Denver's book comes out in 2006, he's a member in good standing.

Karen Strong [01:18:37] Yeah. Now, let me backtrack just, just so that. Just to give it.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] Yeah. He had served on a Stake High Council.

Karen Strong [01:18:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] Or. Or subsequently served on a Stake High Council.

Kirk Strong [01:18:46] Right.

Karen Strong [01:18:46] I would say I briefly mentioned. And. And I think this one would be really common among people who think like I do or involved in this movement. The City Creek development signified was just in the conference center and the extravagance of the temples. I have a friend who is involved with decorating the temples and heard some of the stories about how much pieces of furniture cost or different things like that. And that was another huge, huge thing that was bothering me because I was so devoted to the Book of Mormon. See, I felt. And this was a teaching of President Benson. Remember, he said we were under condemnation because we haven't taken it seriously and that we needed to remove that condemnation.

Karen Strong [01:19:41] It hadn't been lifted and we needed to live according to the Book of Mormon. And so for me, I always wondered why isn't the church teaching and living what the Book of Mormon teaches about wealth and riches? Wealth and riches was a huge one for me because I felt like I was observing the Latter Day Saints becoming very, very wealthy, using their money to build an image, to build an image that would appeal to Babylon rather than using their funds to help the poor and so forth. And that's one of the things that I have loved the most about my understanding now is that tithes are for the poor.

Karen Strong [01:20:30] But we can talk about that later. But that was something I wanted to mention because I would say most of the people in this movement would have a similar feeling that they've been alarmed with what's gone on with the money, the church.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] Okay, that makes sense. So do you remember when you first got the book and how you got a hold of it?

Discovering Denver Snuffer's Writings

Karen Strong [01:20:56] Yes. Okay, so there's a man in my ward who actually had a son in law who lived in Denver's ward. So that's how he knew about the book and he was so excited. The first book that Denver wrote was called the Second Conversing with the Lord through the Veil.

Karen Strong [01:21:15] And I was walking in, this man shared this book with lots of people in the ward, but it hadn't shared with me yet. And I was walking down the hall one day and a woman in the ward stopped me and said, I just got back from vacation and this man gave me this book. And I read it and I just thought of you the whole time and I just thought you have got to read this book. And I said great, I'm heading to our cabin, can I come get it from you this afternoon? I'll take it up to Bear Lake with me. And so I got the book.

Karen Strong [01:21:44] I had six kids, I had a one year old. I am famous for reading three fourths of a book and never quite finishing it. Right. That's my standard operating procedure. And, and I got a hold of this book and I remember looking at the COVID and I hated the COVID And I remember thinking wait, we shouldn't be using conversing with the Lord through the veil. Right. Because that's a temple phrase. And I remember thinking, I don't know if I should read this book. But I was so intrigued because I knew this was about calling an election second comforter. And like you saw, that's what I had been seeking for since my mother mission.

Karen Strong [01:22:22] And before this I had read every book I could get my hands on that had to do with this topic. Trying to search for someone that could help me know how can I receive this? And so I started to read this book, and I'm on vacation and I could not put it down. And it's 400 something pages long. And in four days I read that book. So about 100 pages a day.

Karen Strong [01:22:52] The whole time I was reading it, I kept asking the Lord, okay, we're not supposed to. I thought we weren't supposed to write about this. I thought this was taboo. I mean, nobody talks about this anymore, right? And in the book, on several occasions, he states clearly that he has received this and that the Lord wants all of us to seek to receive this and that he had been commissioned by the Lord to write this book. Right. So when you're reading the book, you have to ask yourself, is this man telling the truth? Is this man lying or is this man deceived?

Kirk Strong [01:23:28] Right.

Karen Strong [01:23:28] I mean, it's. It's one of them. And so the entire time I was asking God and praying the entire time, and all I can tell you is there was so much light and intelligence that was conveyed from that book. It was an answer to years of prayers.

Karen Strong [01:23:47] And the entire time, the Spirit kept bearing witness to me to the same degree the Spirit had answered. I mean, I have heard the voice of the Lord so many times on very significant things. My children coming. I was told I would have a son 10 years before I had my. We have six girls and one boy, and we had him. I was 43. My husband was almost 60.

Karen Strong [01:24:10] I mean, our marriage was me hearing the voice of the Lord to do it. I have heard the voice of the Lord and I have learned to identify when he is speaking. And he spoke to me and confirmed to me with the same witness that I knew the Book of Mormon was true, that what was being stated in that book was correct. And so that was my first experience.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Can you list three teachings in the book that were, like, really important for you? Because, you know, you'd have Stephen Robinson's book, you would have various books from apostles published by Deseret Book. Lots of people. James Talmadge wrote about Jesus the Christ, right? Lots of people writing about Christ. Lots of Mormon apostles. Lots of Deseret Books books. So what was it? Name three things about that first Denver Snuffer book that were either unique or powerful or really fundamental for you.

Karen Strong [01:25:12] Wow. You're asking me to go back 11 years now? Let's see.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Well, one. One or two. Like.

Kirk Strong [01:25:17] Well, I can mention one.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] Yeah, go ahead.

Kirk Strong [01:25:21] Want to take Stephen Robinson's book and compare it to Denver's first Thing I noticed this one didn't have the spirit. Stephen Robinson this one did.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] Meaning you. Meaning you felt what? Meaning you felt what?

Kirk Strong [01:25:33] One was teaching the word of God. The other one wasn't. He was contradicting it.

Karen Strong [01:25:39] One. One was. Well, one is being written by somebody who is a direct witness of Christ and you can.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Did he say that in the book? In that first book?

Karen Strong [01:25:54] He does, if I remember for sure in the footnotes in a couple places and maybe toward the end I think about four times it is stated that in one way or another that he has received this. But the biggest thing for me was just the fact that this doctrine that I had found in old writings of Joseph Smith. I think the last time it was ever mentioned in Conf. General conference was in the 70s. Maybe Marion G. Romney gave a talk about calling election or something. But what it finally did for me was it confirmed to me that this invitation is alive and well.

Karen Strong [01:26:39] That part of our repentance is that we have neglected that this is where the gospel takes you. This is the objective of the gospel is to know Jesus Christ. And we have set this aside and it's actually disappointed the Lord. It's actually to our discredit that we have not done this and that the invitation is alive and well and it happens.

Karen Strong [01:27:07] And this man, I had heard other people make a claim and you know, you never know. But this one, the Spirit had confirmed to me he's telling the truth and the search is back on. And God wants me to do this. I'm not off course because you get to start thinking, oh, don't go down that avenue, don't go down the mysteries, don't go down. You know, all these things that you get told to keep you tight in a box. And this was that this is an invitation from Jesus Christ.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 836

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Can you guys remind us, as I understand it, and I never really read the Book of Mormon through these eyes or the Doctrine and Covenants. Can you guys remind us of the scriptures that speak, the LDS scriptures or the New Testament scriptures that speak very directly to, you know, encouraging us to seek personal relationship with and. Or a personal visitation from Christ? Just remind us.

Kirk Strong [00:00:57] DNC93 1 what does it say

John Dehlin [00:01:01] approximately?

Kirk Strong [00:01:03] Well, it says, gives you an invitation to seek his face, tells you how to do it.

Karen Strong [00:01:08] The process of coming unto Christ.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Okay, are you looking at Denver? Are the new scriptures produced?

Kirk Strong [00:01:15] No, I'm looking at.

Karen Strong [00:01:17] Those are still.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Okay. They're not, they're not in print yet.

Kirk Strong [00:01:20] Verily, thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Now, some people would say, well, that means in the, in the judgment, in the second coming.

Kirk Strong [00:01:39] Well, then all you got to do is go to D&C 76 and you go in and pick up a couple of verses around 74 and 118. It says, know in the flesh.

Karen Strong [00:01:49] Then there's also John. The Gospel of John, I believe, is it chapter 14.

Kirk Strong [00:01:56] But the big one is, and I keep bringing up the big one is Moses was trying to take all of Israel up the Mount Sinai. He's not going to kill them and then say, see, see him in the Spirit. He's taking them up in the flesh up to Mount Sinai. He wants to do that. And he tells you that the ordinances of the higher priesthood are going to make that available to the people. Well, why is he talking like that? And then he comes down from the mountain and the people, they don't want to do that.

Karen Strong [00:02:29] And he says, the thing is, when the children of Israel fail to respond to the invitation to come into the presence of the Father, which is the fullness of the Gospel, they Section 84 teaches you that this angered God, this causes his wrath. When he extends an invitation to you and you refuse to accept it. This is not good. The other thing is the Book of Mormon as a whole is a text of the second comforter. It starts out talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Talk about that.

Kirk Strong [00:03:04] Oh, my heavens.

Karen Strong [00:03:04] It first thing is Lehi

Kirk Strong [00:03:09] and Nephi, he says, knows the mysteries of God. Mysteries comes from the Greek word mysteria, which, which means he knows that the holy ordinances that introduce you to God. In fact, you go through the Book of Mormon and you and you see how many of the people are talking to God face to face. Nephi, Jacob and brother of Jared and all. How many?

Karen Strong [00:03:33] Abraham says I've spoken with God face to face as one man speaks to another.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] But that's for profits.

Karen Strong [00:03:41] Yes, but see I take the Book of Mormon as an invitation. The Book of Mormon is a manual to you to know where God wants you to come.

Kirk Strong [00:03:53] I take the Book of Mormon as invitation to be a prophet.

Karen Strong [00:03:57] And Moses says would to God that all men were prophets.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] When I, when I respond to you, I want you to know this isn't me disagree. This is me putting on my hat of a right of kind of a middle, you know, middle stream Mormon who doesn't take things too serious. No, I love it. I just hope you know I'm not adversarial to you. I'm just representing. Yeah, yeah. Let me what some of my listeners who are believers might be thinking.

Key Teachings That Resonated from Snuffer's Work

Kirk Strong [00:04:21] Let me, let me say just this one thing. The DNC 5214 tells you that I'm going to show you, give you a pattern in all things so that you won't be deceived because the adversaries are broad in the land and throughout all the nations.

Kirk Strong [00:04:39] I think most LDS people miss the number one pattern in the scriptures that tells you exactly what's going on and that's the story of Lehi. Book of Mormon I think has what 531 pages, the 1st35 or so have to do with just Lehi and his family.

Kirk Strong [00:05:01] And if you would look at what's happening to him, it's a story about a person that is going through the same scenarios that everybody right here on the Wasatch front, especially living in modern day Jerusalem, should be going through.

Kirk Strong [00:05:18] And it talks about his sons growing up and his sons actually seen the face of the Lord, Nephi and Jacob and they're inviting everybody to come unto him. And you're just going, this is.

Karen Strong [00:05:35] And think about it though, who is Lehi? Also, Lehi's just a man in Jerusalem. I mean Jeremiah's alive, there's other prophets alive. And it really starts out by telling you this invitation to know God is for anyone. That's what I take from Lehi is who is Lehi?

Kirk Strong [00:05:55] And he's in. And if you read the story of Lehi and Nephi, they're telling you how to do it. They're literally telling you all these little stories about the Liahon and the sword of Laban and all about the ship that they have to build and leaving Jerusalem. They're all metaphors and symbolic of how do you do this? How do you get away from what's happening here and get to the point where the Lord is going to meet with you face to face? How do you do that?

John Dehlin [00:06:25] I'm just going to read a couple comments from our listeners. Mark Peterson writes. Attaboy. Do you guys know Mark Peterson? I think he's liking what you're writing.

Karen Strong [00:06:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Scott Smith writes, Second Nephi32.6 is the most powerful scripture in the whole Book of Mormon. For me, Nephi shares this in plain text and even says, many will not get it. Cody actually quotes it. 2nd Nephi 32. 6 He shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh.

Karen Strong [00:06:59] Okay, now that's a. Remember how we call this the doctrine of Christ, because we didn't know what else to call this movement that is the result of following the doctrine of Christ, which is to repent and, and then to be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost will show you all things which you shall do. And basically it's until Christ manifests himself to you in the flesh. And then you must do all things Christ teaches you to do. Which is another thing Denver taught in the second comforter was that then when Christ appears to you, he then will take you to the Father. It's a process of functioning, first with the Holy Ghost obtaining the Holy Ghost, doing what it says. And then you will be introduced after you've proven obedient to that, to the Son. And as you are obedient to him, you are then introduced to the Father.

Kirk Strong [00:07:50] In fact, if you look at the oath and covenant of the priest, it follows that sequence, the oath and covenant of the priesthood introduces you to the Spirit, introduces you to ministering angels. And the Lord promises that if you'll follow them, you'll be introduced to the Son. And then the Son promises you, if you'll be introduced to me, I will introduce you to the Father. That's all part of the oath and

John Dehlin [00:08:16] the covenant of the priesthood, which is in Doctrine of Covenants.

Karen Strong [00:08:20] Yeah, right. Section 84, I think.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Okay. I have to.

Karen Strong [00:08:25] Fire hose.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Yeah, I love it. No, I love it. I'm going to read a couple more comments because you guys are. You guys are catching fire. Our listenership. They're catching fire. Cecil. Let's see. No, Scott writes a really poignant point. He writes, what man would actually discourage someone from seeking the face of the Lord? That's a. That's a really good question. And I would say it's It's a man that's scared of losing his authority.

Karen Strong [00:08:56] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] I mean, you've got this. You've got this instance and you guys won't. You guys won't agree with this as much, but you've got this instance in the Doctrine and Covenants where Joseph Smith starts using a seer stone and then Hyrum Page starts using one as well, but starts getting different revelation than what? Than what, Joseph? Yeah. False to you.

Karen Strong [00:09:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Not false to higher page. And so. And so Joseph says, you got to stop that. You know what I mean? And so, in other words, the core problem with this whole deal is what if God and Jesus tell you one thing, but Thomas S. Monson something else? We're getting ahead of ourselves. But that's the dilemma. Right, right.

Karen Strong [00:09:36] But it's always been the key to figure out how to discern is it's the test and it never ends. But keep going.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:09:43] That does not end.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Yeah. Cecil writes, I remember Bruce R. McConkey stating that we should not seek a personal relationship with the Lord. I was watching that conference when he said that. I was a bit shocked. What do you guys say about that?

Kirk Strong [00:09:59] Well, that was when he was having the big battle with the teacher, the professor.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Who's that Professor?

Kirk Strong [00:10:05] Oh, I can't think of him. Oh, I can see him. Nice guy. Yes.

Karen Strong [00:10:09] I loved him. He did great. But he was in one.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Was it?

Kirk Strong [00:10:12] No, no, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Yeah, there was some. Our listeners. Our listeners will tell us there was some religion teacher.

Karen Strong [00:10:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] And he encouraged BYU faculty who was encouraging people to have a reprimanded George Pace.

Kirk Strong [00:10:26] Thank you, Mark.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] That was George Pace.

Kirk Strong [00:10:27] George Pace, Mark. And. And this was the upper hand on that battle because George Pace isn't going to be able to go into the merit center and speak to McConkey is going to come in there and kind of try and put an end to this whole thing because Brother Pace was actually teaching that, that you can have that experience here in the, in the near future if you. If you'll just go out and kind of pray like Enoch, etc. So, yeah, that, that's.

Karen Strong [00:10:57] I think it's about control because, number one, if I used to always believe that when I would study the gospel and ask yourself, have the brethren seen the Lord or not? Right. That's the question I came to the conclusion in my early earlier years that we were talking about, well, they have to have, because after I studied the Scriptures, I came to realize any true prophet or apostle is sent from God and therefore they have to be a literal witness of him can. That was the conclusion I came to by studying my Scriptures.

Karen Strong [00:11:35] And so I just gave them the benefit of the doubt that, okay, well, since they're prophets and apostles, they have. They're just not talking about it. But I've since come to not believe that. I don't believe that they have. I think they should, but they have not. And if you have not received that, what are you going to do when you have members who start receive that? You have to control that.

Karen Strong [00:12:01] That's what an institution does, is an institution elevates a hierarchy and has everybody look up to the hierarchy for their relationship to God is through them rather than directly to God. And they fear the independence and the equality that comes when people can go directly to Christ himself. And if they haven't received it, also, that puts them in more fear because they haven't had Jesus Christ come to him to tell them, well, you need to encourage the people to do that. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] No sorry. What are you apologizing for? This is great.

Karen Strong [00:12:38] I talk a lot. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] No, you're not at all. Okay, so. And you're. And you probably at some point, were you paying attention to whether any of the brethren had said they saw Christ themselves? Because. Because they always say those sorts of things. Like, I know in ways too sacred to tell. It's always, you know, I know. You know, I know his very voice, you know, leading language.

Karen Strong [00:13:04] Language to lead you there, to make

John Dehlin [00:13:06] members think they've seen God in Christ.

Kirk Strong [00:13:08] You know, I had impressions that one of the quorum of the 12 in the previous decade had actually. He never really quite said it, but I was convinced that the others did not. Especially when you had Elder Oaks go up to Boise, the Boise Rescue. Yeah. And make a statement that that was

Karen Strong [00:13:40] a familiar tactic of the adversary, is to get people to want to seek the face of Christ the Lord.

Kirk Strong [00:13:46] You know, and you're just.

Karen Strong [00:13:47] See, that's fear. That. That's. Yeah, that is using fear to control the flock.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Okay, so let's go back to your story, because I'm loving this and tell us now. So you've read in your story, you've read Denver's first book. You're starting to come alive. You feel the spirit in it. How did it progress? How did your journey progress?

Kirk Strong [00:14:12] Now I'm on a different timetable than she is, so slower. Yeah, I'm cautious.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:14:19] Very cautious. But remember, he's a member of the church. I get really cautious in 13 when he gets excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] But you were. That bothered you.

Kirk Strong [00:14:30] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:14:31] Well. And so. So we'll get to that. Okay. So sorry, I have to talk again because. No, it's good for the next few years. It's just. It's kind of me.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] You're on your own. Are you feeling like he's maybe worried about you or.

Karen Strong [00:14:44] He's not worried about me because he's

Kirk Strong [00:14:46] always on the fast track.

Karen Strong [00:14:47] Remember, he's always been saying to me, the church is an apostasy. Right. And we can't figure this out. We can't figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] As a BYU employee. He's telling you that.

Kirk Strong [00:14:55] Well, but remember, my hope is that the church is going to get this resolved. I have no anticipation of leaving the church.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Church.

Kirk Strong [00:15:06] None whatsoever.

Karen Strong [00:15:07] We're not thinking anything. The Lord's gonna flank the church.

Kirk Strong [00:15:11] We're no.

Karen Strong [00:15:12] How is this gonna get resolved?

John Dehlin [00:15:15] But the point I'm making is we, maybe some of us tend to think of these situations as like weird people in rural Utah or, you know, Colorado City who have, you know, they're kind of preppers. And I'm using offensive stereotypes now, but we tend to think of fundamentalists and not even polygamist fundamentalists, but just sort of like more doctrinally fundamentalist Mormons as people in rural areas who aren't mainstream. And what's noteworthy is you're basically saying, Kirk, that as a byu, not just a BYU employee, but as a religion instructor at byu, you're feeling like the church was in apostasy, and you're starting to read and think about Denver Snuffer as an active church member and as a church employee. True.

Karen Strong [00:16:19] Yes.

Kirk Strong [00:16:19] Okay. But here's the situation, though. I'm not as avid in the reading of Denver Snuffer as she was. I've got my hands.

Karen Strong [00:16:30] Starting in 2006, I have got my

Kirk Strong [00:16:33] hands full with the admissions that crunch and everything at byu. And I've got my ecclesiastical responsibilities. She's home doing her housework, bless her heart, and she's pretty efficient. And she's reading. She keeps telling me to keep reading his books. And he keeps popping out these books faster than I can read.

Karen Strong [00:16:53] You got to realize.

Kirk Strong [00:16:56] No, no, no.

Karen Strong [00:16:56] So. So you got to realize, Also, he's almost 17 years older than me, right? Which. That's a whole other fantastic spiritual story.

Kirk Strong [00:17:04] You should ask us that story.

Karen Strong [00:17:05] But.

Kirk Strong [00:17:06] But we'll get that maybe some other time.

Karen Strong [00:17:08] But he. So he's a lot older. So after a long days of work, right, he wants to come home. He sits on the couch. He can't stay awake. I can't pick up a book to him. But we'll get to that because there's a solution to that of what. What I did because I knew he would never catch the Spirit of what was going on unless he read the words himself. So what happens to me though is because that's how the Spirit has to speak to you. You don't listen to Karen tell about it. You need to listen to the message delivered by the messenger in the messenger's words, and then the Spirit can confirm to you whether it's accurate or not.

Karen Strong [00:17:43] And so I would say Denver, about once a year came out with a book. And because I had this neighbor who had the son in law, the neighbor would always tell me that a new book has come out, right? And so I would boy, get on Amazon the first time because the Lord had already told me the first book was true. But I got to tell you, so he came out with Nephi's Isaiah the next year, I believe it was. There's a book called 18 Verses. There's a book called 18 Parables.

Karen Strong [00:18:16] There's a book called Fabulous Book that I would recommend to anybody that is a kind of like, well, what's one book I could read? It's called Come Let Us Adore Him. And in it he gives his testimony and personal witness of Christ appearing to him and showing him the suffering in the garden of Gethsemane. Gethsemane. And a couple years later appearing again to explain to him what it was that he viewed. That is a life changing experience. To read that, I will just say that because no longer could you hold a grudge or withhold forgiveness from any other human being when you understand what Christ.

Karen Strong [00:19:09] I have heard people try to explain his suffering, what happened, but this was an eyewitness account, which is what is what you want to hear. You need to.

Kirk Strong [00:19:21] Okay. But what she did, listen to this. She was just getting so fired up that she would try and talk to me about it. But you need to hear the words, you need to read it. So she's not an early riser, but she got up at 6am I love

Karen Strong [00:19:40] staying up till 2 in the morning. Can't stand.

Kirk Strong [00:19:43] She got up at 6am and read me why I shaved and got ready for work. She read me every book of Denver and we discussed it over the years.

Karen Strong [00:19:56] Started with number one in order and then you got to understand in 2010 he started a blog and the blog for about a year and a half of that blog, he posted every morning and every afternoon or evening. So twice a day.

Karen Strong [00:20:14] And for a large part of that, what he did is he would just take one verse out of the Book of Mormon and elaborate on it. And remember, I'm somebody who has a complete witness at the Book of Mormon.

Karen Strong [00:20:27] And the eyes of my understanding pertaining to the Book of Mormon just opened up to a whole new level. And it had been years before somebody else was teaching me something about the Book of Mormon, right. That just wasn't an experience.

Karen Strong [00:20:45] That sounds terrible, but usually we were the teachers, right? And here I was sitting here being spiritually fed to a degree that I had never had before. And I knew that if my husband didn't start reading these words that he's

Kirk Strong [00:21:02] going to be way behind.

Karen Strong [00:21:03] He's going to be so far behind in what's going on, even though he was supportive of my. My little journey.

Kirk Strong [00:21:10] So I'm reading my own scriptures at lunchtime and doing all the work and everything, but in the morning, I'm getting edified with Denver's words. And he's a good member of the church, remember? And I resonated with Ed, everything he was saying. I said, who the heck is this guy? You know, and all. And all I knew about him is he, he came from mountain home up by Boise. He wasn't a member. He didn't know much about members. He enlisted in the Air Force. He's out in the northeast somewhere. And the missionaries take a couple years to convert him. And, and he catches fire. And, and he's in a. Now he's an attorney in Salt Lake and he's a high councilman. And I'm going, this guy has put in words what's in my heart.

Karen Strong [00:22:03] And we were gauging it. We were gauging it also by. Everything was according to scripture. See, that's, that's what was a really big deal.

Kirk Strong [00:22:11] We knew the doctrine and he spoke the words of God. He was not speaking his own ideas, his own opinions and his own words.

Karen Strong [00:22:19] And in the process, see, here's another thing that was huge for me. Here I was this devoted Latter Day Saint all my life, right? Just love the gospel. But the way that the church brings you up, you really do begin to worship the brethren. That is really where your focus starts to go. And I remember having a conversation with one of my dear friends in maybe 1999 or something like that. And I said to her, you know, I know that I don't feel and have a relationship with Christ.

Karen Strong [00:22:55] That is the way that I'm supposed to. I know that something's missing. And I didn't realize it was because I was focusing on the brethren, but I just knew something was missing. And my experience in reading was always that when I would read something Denver would write, it was always like, ignore me, Ignore them. I'm nothing. Don't focus on me.

Karen Strong [00:23:19] It's the message that you need to respond to. The message is to turn you to Christ. He is the only one that can save you. And all I know is that my love and relationship with the Savior, all of a sudden, that's when it began to become what it probably should have been clear from, you know, my childhood.

Growing Disillusionment With Sunday Worship

John Dehlin [00:23:42] So in your week across week, month across month, year across year, church participation, I'm sensing you weren't feeling as filled as you wanted to feel. Is that true?

Karen Strong [00:23:53] Absolutely empty. It was like endure to the end in boredom.

Kirk Strong [00:24:03] Honestly, not early.

Karen Strong [00:24:05] I mean, that gets worse as you go along, right?

Kirk Strong [00:24:08] There's a scripture in. What is Alma 12 about? If you stop learning, you're going to start to decrease. I hadn't been fed. My knowledge had not increased for years. It had just plateaued, absolutely plateaued. And I feared it was starting to shrink.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] He came in as a BYU religion professor.

Kirk Strong [00:24:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] How is that?

Karen Strong [00:24:39] Well, I mean, they even try to control how you taught in the Book of Mormon at byu. Well, okay.

Kirk Strong [00:24:47] They were okay. What I'm saying is that the approach in the new curriculum is all survey. It's not doctrine oriented. It's all teach the storyline. Teach the storyline. Let the students get their doctrine themselves. Teach the storyline. Teach the.

Kirk Strong [00:25:07] There were still a lot of questions that any person would have about the gospel. Denver came in and took the words right out of my heart about how I was feeling about things. And then he started to add knowledge to it.

Kirk Strong [00:25:24] But he always taught from the scriptures, Scriptures that were sitting right in front of my face that I had read several times. And he was enlightening me. And I was absolutely blown away. If you put three pieces of paper up there with a dissertation from an apostle of the church, a dissertation from a Christian minister, or in a dissertation from Denver, and you took all the names off of them, I, I could pick Denver's out every time. Not because of his writing style, because it was the words out of the Scriptures. It was.

Karen Strong [00:26:05] It was so filled with light.

Kirk Strong [00:26:06] It was so filled with light and truth that it just edified me. And it was. It was causing me to grow again. To grow. And I. And I had. I had kind of resigned to this word that they had asked us to resign to. And now you have to endure. Now you just have to endure. And I'm going, I want to grow. Until I go into the grave. I want to grow.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] You know, it's so weird because as I'm hearing you talk, I'm inspired and I'm thinking, oh, the brethren aren't going to like this. You know, this is too much. You're taking your religion way too seriously. You're reading the scriptures way too closely. This is something that's going to make the brethren really nervous. And I'm just finding myself inspired by your dedication and then my sort of LDS church nurtured brain saying, you're taking the scriptures really way too seriously. You're taking your religious beliefs way too seriously. This is going to get you into trouble. And it's so weird to have that

Kirk Strong [00:27:11] tug of war in my brain. That's what we've been accused of. The strong have looked beyond the mark. They study way too much.

Karen Strong [00:27:21] But you know what? This is what he was referring to before. The Alma 12 scripture talks about if you have a soft heart that the Lord will unfold the mysteries unto you until you know them in full. And you can either have a soft heart and allow God to teach you, or you can have a stiff neck that's unbending because it's so full of idolatry that you miss the opportunity to receive what God. He put you down here for an opportunity to come and show that nothing else matters to you than him.

Kirk Strong [00:28:07] Yeah, but I don't hit a major problem until he gets excommunicated. Now what do you do?

Karen Strong [00:28:17] Yeah, and so that's. Right.

Kirk Strong [00:28:19] What do you do now?

John Dehlin [00:28:21] So by then, by, by 2013,

Kirk Strong [00:28:28] you're, you know, he's in good standing.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Karen, you've been reading to Kirk. Kirk. You've started to really understand the teachings and really feel inspired by them. But you're still a BYU employee. And so he's been excommunicated. And you're saying now you feel the tug between what to do. I just have to read a listener comment. Scott writes to me. Too seriously. Question mark. This is about Jesus Christ, exclamation point, the Creator. How can it be taken too seriously? And I'm just saying, yes, Scott, and this is so, so edgy. You know, there's edgy in terms of being liberal or progressive in the modern era or even being ex Mormon. And there's edgy being too religious or too spiritual or too orthodox in modern Mormonism. And this just feels beautiful and very edgy to me.

Karen Strong [00:29:28] That's all I'm saying we're pretty mainstream, really. I mean, you know, we. Right, we. If you didn't know these private thoughts of ours, you would think we're. Yeah, you know, I'm not wearing a polygamous hairdo or, you know what I'm saying, I'm not wearing a dress down to my ankles and baking the whole wheat. But nothing against that. I'm just saying, you know, we don't fit that stereotype, I don't think.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] I'll just read one more comment from Richard. He writes, some people love the McChurch, which I think is a reference to McDonald's. Other people like to experiment with personality envy. And by that I mean human idolatry. So that's. So that's Richard. He says, because it is 2017, we have different truths. Very edgy indeed. Okay, so what do you do with your dilemma?

Kirk Strong [00:30:24] Okay, so what I do is once he's excommunicated, then it. It changes my paradigm a little bit because I had never anticipated this conflict coming. Okay. Because he had written several books and he finally wrote one that was over the top for the Brethren, and they

Karen Strong [00:30:48] went after him, and that was called Passing the Heavenly Gift.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] And what was over the top about that?

Kirk Strong [00:30:55] He actually was taking an approach on how to help mainstream Mormons deal with the inconsistencies in Mormon history. And he was doing a beautiful job on it.

Karen Strong [00:31:08] Blacks in the priesthood, Adam, God. I mean, all these topics that you addressed earlier. He covers and shows, you know, what happened.

Kirk Strong [00:31:18] And he was literally helping people to overcome, you know, when things were being released and like in the Joseph Smith Papers or whatever was the church essays and all of these things, and people

Karen Strong [00:31:33] were having the faith crisis because I was never taught this, and maybe someone

Kirk Strong [00:31:37] was being influenced by Michael Quinn or, you know, whatever, he was dealing with those issues, but he wouldn't sweep things under the rug. He would hit you point blank what happened. And evidently it was too much for. For them to take. And. And so they excommunicated him.

Karen Strong [00:31:58] And I think his analysis of section 124 is probably the one that got him excommunicated, to tell you the truth. That's one that nobody else had taught.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] What was that?

Karen Strong [00:32:11] That was. Okay, section 124, given in 1841. Okay, they're in Nauvoo. And basically the gist of what he explains is that the purpose of the restoration has always been to bring about Zion, to reclaim the remnant of Israel and to bring about Zion. And that when Joseph Smith starts after he's Published the Book of Mormon. The very first thing that the restoration is about is to go reclaim the Lamanites and to begin Zion. That's why they start in Missouri. They fell, they get put under condemnation, which is section 84, where they get put under condemnation, jump forward 10 years or eight years, whatever, to 1841.

Karen Strong [00:33:01] And the Lord is giving them a second opportunity to establish Zion. Cornerstone of Zion in Nauvoo. Right. And the assignment that they're given is to build a temple. And they're told in verse 28 that they have to build that temple because there is not a place found on the earth where the Lord can come to, literally come to again and restore something that he had taken away from them, that which was lost unto them. And then he identifies it as the fullness of the priesthood, which. So he starts out in verse 28 and says, you don't have the fullness of the priesthood, by the way, I took it from you, and you better build this temple so that I can bring it back to you so you can already see, oh, wait, how come we haven't heard about that in church history?

Karen Strong [00:33:48] Why did we miss over that? And basically, what it says, as you read the section on it, says that they're given a limited amount of time to get this temple done, but they're not told how long that is.

Karen Strong [00:33:59] And they're told that if they. If they don't get the temple built in this allotted time, then they will be rejected as a church with their dead. Okay, so jump forward toward the end.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] Where is that again?

Karen Strong [00:34:13] This is section 124, okay? Very big. This is life changing.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] It's not talking about Kirtland and Nauvoo.

Karen Strong [00:34:19] No, it's talking about Nauvoo Temple. It's saying, you got to build this temple. Christ has got to return. You don't have the fullness of the priesthood other than Joseph and Hyrum have it, but the church doesn't have it. They need to get this done in a certain amount of time or they will be rejected as a church with their dead. And then they're told, if they succeed, they will not be moved out of their place. But if they fail, they will not receive the blessings that they expect at God's hands. Okay, so the church teaches.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Yeah, they built the temple.

Karen Strong [00:34:50] The church teaches the narrative that we succeeded. What Denver Snuffer pointed out was, did they? Did they? Okay, yes. Now, this is. This is an orthodox Mormonism. That's right. In orthodox Mormonism, yes. But this finally answered to me why we had been saying for 20 years the church is an apostasy. Because the narrative that he says to consider is, look at the words and stop looking at it through the lens that you were taught to look at it and look at what it says.

Karen Strong [00:35:23] If you look at three and a half years later, they built the Kirtland Temple in 30 months with like 150 people working on it. Okay? They had thousands of people in Nauvoo. They had this wealthy city. I mean, it's this beautiful place, opulent homes for the day. And when Joseph and Hyrum are martyred, the Nauvoo temple is only complete to the outside sea, second story of the building. After three and a half years with thousands of people living there. Okay.

Snuffer's Claims About Priesthood and Temple Restoration

Karen Strong [00:35:54] What Denver points out is then they hurry and finish it. When they're giving endowments before they flee across the frozen river, they're giving endowments in an unfinished attic that Joseph never explained the design of how the interior was to be.

Karen Strong [00:36:14] They did not have that temple completed until after the saints flee. They clearly got moved out of their place. The entire temple, Christ never appeared to in it. There's no record of Christ ever appearing to it. And after they leave and it's dedicated, it then gets. There's fire. It gets blown down by a tornado.

Karen Strong [00:36:35] It ends up that there's not even one stone left upon another. Right. Then they get sent to Utah and have all kinds of hardships and terrible things. This does not sound like the people, if you read that section, who were not moved out of their place and who succeeded. But the narrative they gave is that, well, because we finished it eventually, we did succeed.

Karen Strong [00:36:57] And what that leaves with you is Denver basically proposes the idea that we failed in early Nauvoo in the same way that the children of Israel failed with Moses. An invitation was given to come into the presence of God and they failed.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Who failed?

Karen Strong [00:37:19] The children of both. Okay. The children of Israel failed and were left with Aaronic priesthood. Right?

John Dehlin [00:37:23] Right.

Karen Strong [00:37:24] Basically, what Denver's saying is, same thing, the same pattern. Remember patterns? Pattern is how God teaches you so you can identify what's happening. The same pattern was followed. We were always told couldn't fail, couldn't go wrong. Everything was just hunky dory. But what he planted was the. Was the idea that we actually did the same thing we did. We neglected to heed the invitation God gave through Joseph to come into his presence. And because Joseph and Hyrum were killed as a consequence of this failure, blood was on their.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] Wait a minute. Wait A minute. So you're saying that Joseph and Hyrum weren't killed for Joseph lying about polygamy and destroying the printing press, the Nauvoo Legion and scaring everyone. A long list of co opting. All that plays into the Masonic, the Masonic rituals into the temple ceremony. That's what a lot of people would say is why all of that plays into it. But you're also saying something else.

Karen Strong [00:38:26] I'm also saying had the saints done what God asked, that would have been a cornerstone of Zion, they would not have been moved out of place. They would have become a Zion place where God would defend them. None of that would have happened.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] And when you say, when you say did what God asked, you mean what

Karen Strong [00:38:44] they were to build that house and what they basically did not. Not in the time frame. Remember, he gives you a time frame. He says they didn't build it fast enough. They did not build it where they sacrificed. See, this is why I was pointing out earlier, if you look at their homes, if you look at the city of Nauvoo, this was. God requires a sacrifice of everything from us. The saints were not willing to do that. They were first concerned about their comforts, and Joseph admonished them several times that they were in jeopardy of failing. And when they finally got it done, Orson Hyde or Orson Pratt, he stays back to dedicate it and he says, basically, phew, we made it by the skin of our teeth. Did God tell them that they made it? Who revealed to them that they actually succeeded?

Kirk Strong [00:39:35] Well, by virtue of the fact that they were expelled from. From Nauvoo and the revelation said they

Karen Strong [00:39:42] wouldn't be moved out of the way.

Kirk Strong [00:39:42] That was God's answer because he told them they would not be removed. And. And you wonder all these years when you read those scriptures where it's just all on the same page. If you don't finish the temple, I'm going to remove you. If you do finish it, you won't be removed. And then all of a sudden they're removed. And so where's the explanation?

Karen Strong [00:40:03] And he would appear to it.

Kirk Strong [00:40:05] Yeah. In fact, look what happened at Kirtland. Why wouldn't that happen in any of our other temples built from then on? Where are the angels? Where is Christ coming to receive these temples at Manti, at Logan, at St. George, at Salt Lake, and especially in Nauvoo? Where is the divine acceptance of these temples?

John Dehlin [00:40:25] So for you, Christ needs to visit a temple for it to be kind of.

Karen Strong [00:40:29] It is not accepted unless he has come. That's the purpose of it. And now, and I want to explain this one other thing because this is important because this was mind boggling to me when I read it. This, this, when I read this in passing, the heavenly gift, it was earth shattering, yet answered so many questions. But what basically happens is the invitation and opportunity to establish Zion at that time and come into God's presence and receive the fullness was withdrawn. Okay. When Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and the church was left with portion of the priesthood that they claim to have a fullness of it.

Karen Strong [00:41:09] But now my belief and understanding is they were really left with an ironic level and an Aaronic level of priesthood gives you. They got changed from having authority to commission, but they were left with the commission to cry repentance and to baptize and baptism if that process is followed by basically can bring the Holy Ghost. And we were operating on that level, but we had a group of people of inner circle brethren who had a lot of knowledge that Joseph Smith had been trying to impart with them at the end of his life. And so they took a lot of that knowledge thinking that they now still had the authority and they continue to run the church as if they have it all.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] So I'm just going to tell you just, this is just a pause because I love what you guys are. You know, I love the passion and the intellectual sort of, I don't know, you're. I love that you're looking deeply. I mean, if God's really speaking to prophets, if this stuff is really scripture, we should be taking it super seriously. So. So in that sense it feels like it's the way religion should be. On the other hand, I'll just say to pause.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] One of the things that really made me sad when I started studying church history was Zion's camp when Joseph in my view, kind of made a bit of a crazy prediction when things were really kind of out of control. And I think Joseph predicted that the saints would march into Missouri or whatever and conquer whoever was opposing them. And that didn't happen. So he had a failed prophecy on his hand. And so immediately he turned and basically blamed the members of the church and said, you weren't faithful enough. There's a part of my heart that's really sad when I think about how much the early saints in Ohio and Missouri and even in Nauvoo sacrificed for the church.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Part of me doesn't like the idea blaming them for some prophecy not happening because in some ways, number one, they sacrifice so much. Number two, who are we to question or doubt them. Number three, aren't we blaming the victim?

John Dehlin [00:43:30] You know, when a prophet's prophecy doesn't come to pass. Well, let's just blame the members when they sacrifice so much. That hurts my heart a little bit. You don't have to respond to that.

Karen Strong [00:43:39] I would like to respond to it.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Okay. Because I'm not arguing with you, I'm just telling you my.

Karen Strong [00:43:44] I get that's what I'm saying. When I, when I first. This was not easy to hear. But what it did explain to me is it explained why since the time of Joseph Smith we would be getting no more revelations that are legitimate because the manifesto wasn't. And neither was really President Kimball's 1978 wasn't a true revelation. So we're. This is. This explains why nobody's claiming that they've seen God. This would explain why I see all this changing where it's becoming businessmen that lead the church rather than somebody really connected to God. It explained a lot. But for me, I will admit it was very painful.

Karen Strong [00:44:23] It's very painful because I explained to you my Mormon pioneer stock. I mean, I'm Brigham Young. I'm going to start. I have to come to the terms with that. A lot of our failures as a church began with Brigham Young.

Karen Strong [00:44:43] But the people were doing the best they knew how. And I don't judge or criticize them because I actually think I would have done the exact same thing in their shoes. But now we have hindsight to learn from and the real reason for their failure and Zion's camp. And this is true if you're trying to establish Zion.

Karen Strong [00:45:03] Zion can only work when there's no contention. So if there's jealousies, coveting, backbiting, lust, envying, if those attributes and tendencies of the human nature have not been gotten rid of in a group of people, then you can't succeed. And that was what was still there with the Saints. And I believe in the wisdom of God.

Karen Strong [00:45:31] It was intended to be so, so that we could now look back and say we have got to not fall into the same trap.

Kirk Strong [00:45:40] Let me go back to a pattern on this too, because I felt the same way about these people that had come all the way over from Europe and suffered so much and everything. Same thing happened with Israel and Egypt. They had been in bondage for so long, they finally get out of bondage. They get over in the wilderness and they don't respond in a favorable way to the Lord's invitation to rise up and to come meet the Lord. He did not leave them empty handed. He left the lower priesthood with them. He left the lower priesthood with the people in Nauvoo to they were still his chosen people, but they did not get the fullness of the priesthood which would give them the opportunity to do what my wife and I want to do. And that's to see the face of the Lord. That was gone. Now all's left as a group because

Karen Strong [00:46:39] individuals could still do that.

Kirk Strong [00:46:40] Could I do better than those people in Nauvoo? I don't think so. All the people crossing the plains and everything. But they're the Lord's people and he teaches them and he blesses them. So when he gets excommunicated, I've got a problem. I'm going to have to put it, because I'm so cautious. I put it in neutral. Okay, she's going to go listen to 10 talks that he's going to give.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] I remember that. Okay, so you were probably worried about your job, right? Well, I mean your retirement, your benefits.

Kirk Strong [00:47:18] Not as much as you think. Because I had no anticipation of expectation of what was going to happen to me. I'm worried about my testimony is what I'm worried about. And I'm wondering why is Denver saying these things? And where is an apostle or a prophet that's saying, well, where are these things?

Karen Strong [00:47:40] Integrity. You know, it's a scary, it's a scary thought to think, wait, if I, if I go down this road and think this, then I really can't stay

Kirk Strong [00:47:51] at BYU because so I put it in neutral. In fact, I even go talk to and I won't mention his name, a good brethren that I know that is taught religion at byu. We sat down and we, we had a pretty good talk. Knee to knee, eye to eye. And his advice was to be patient because some good things are yet to happen in the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Did you ever get a sense for what Millet was thinking about all this? Robert Millet?

Kirk Strong [00:48:24] No. I knew of him and had some, but I never went to him.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Okay, that's fine.

Kirk Strong [00:48:31] Yeah, it was another person.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] So you put the brakes on it for you a little bit and slow

Kirk Strong [00:48:37] down and said, okay, look, you know this. First. Not because I was worried about getting excommunicated. I was worried about if the church excommunicated him. What did they see that I should see? That's what I was worried.

Karen Strong [00:48:59] That's how you're taught, you know.

Kirk Strong [00:49:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] But if that's true, if that's true, then okay, so. So at some point, Denver Snuffer announces He's going to be, like, visiting 10 different cities and giving 10 different talks.

Kirk Strong [00:49:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] And so you're saying that.

Kirk Strong [00:49:15] That you.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] Kirk, put the brakes on.

Kirk Strong [00:49:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] But you, Karen, she went. You were going to go to those talks.

Karen Strong [00:49:22] I absolutely win.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Okay, so what year was that?

Karen Strong [00:49:25] That was. The first talk was September 10, 2013. And he gets.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] So that was after his excommunication.

Karen Strong [00:49:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] He gets notified we're bringing this now. Now you've excommunicated me.

Karen Strong [00:49:37] They can't. They did the council on a Sunday, and I think the 10th was a Tuesday. And as he's driving up to Boise to give the talk, the first talk of the 10, I. He gets a call from a stake president saying he's excommunicated. Now, these talks were.

Karen Strong [00:49:55] He claimed. These talks were commanded of him, instructed of him by the Lord to give them. And they were to the members of the church. This was to the Mormons. These talks were delivered in 10 different places in the Mormon corridor, meaning it started in Boise, went down to Idaho Falls. There was a talk in the Salt Lake area, I think in Bountiful or Centerville, and then there was a talk in Orem, a talk in Colorado, a talk in St. George, in Las Vegas, and also in Phoenix. And Ephraim, Utah, was number seven. I'm just trying to think through. I think I hit them all. Not quite.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] That was good. That was impressive.

Karen Strong [00:50:41] But. Well, it's because I drove, I drove and went to him. So I went to all of them except for the eighth one, because it was the day after July 24th, and we have family stuff, and I couldn't quite get there, but I.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] You went to all but one, and

Karen Strong [00:50:56] I didn't go to Phoenix because we had family issues that I couldn't fly down there.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Okay, that first one, how many people were in attendance?

Karen Strong [00:51:03] It was a small venue. It wasn't. It was interesting because the venue was basically filled to what its capacity was. It was almost like I've had that divine.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] What was the first one, though? The very first?

Karen Strong [00:51:17] Boise.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Boise.

Karen Strong [00:51:18] Boise.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Okay. And where was it? What type of.

Karen Strong [00:51:21] I can't even remember that when I want to say. It was this little kind of facility. And maybe that was Idaho Falls. I can't even. I can't picture the two between Idaho Falls and Boise. But it wasn't very small. I'm talking maybe 200 people. And there was one in Logan. I forgot to say Logan. Logan was the third talk, I think.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] And so a couple hundred people at the most.

Karen Strong [00:51:44] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] And what was the energy, like, and what were you thinking? This is a prophet? Or I got to figure this guy out. Was it curious?

Karen Strong [00:51:53] Well, at this time, you're still saying, well, everybody's different, see, in their journey. I mean, you know, for you, what were you doing for me? For me, since this is 2006, all along, I'm praying. See, every book that I'm reading, I've read now, eight books or whatever, and every blog post, you're saying all the time, yeah, I'm praying all the time. I understand deception. I understand that that's always a possibility. Right? And I can see where this is taking me. I can see, okay, this is. Man, this better be the truth. I better know that this is the truth, because everything is on the line.

Karen Strong [00:52:28] And I can sense that. But by this time, by the time he gives the first talk, I have had now, so many witnesses, and in a year, from now on, in 2014, I do ask the Lord and have a dream that I can tell you about. But wait, but I'm always asking, okay, but at this time, no, I know that he is telling the truth. And. And when he says, I'm delivering these 10 talks because the Lord has given me the topics and the content to deliver, I know that that's true. Does that make sense? I believe that so.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] And so are you thinking of him as a prophet by this point?

Karen Strong [00:53:09] When you say prophet, I want to clarify this just for listeners out there. I believe, number one, all people can be prophets. Right. When somebody is a prophet, they had the testimony of Jesus Christ. Which is not to say I believe Jesus Christ. It means you have st. Stood in Christ's presence and received from him the testimony from him concerning your condition and status in his eyes. Okay, so.

Karen Strong [00:53:35] And a true prophet has stood in his presence and is authorized to deliver a message to the people. In other words, he sent from God's presence to deliver a message that's authentically from God. When we think of prophet in the LDS Church, we always think hierarchy. We think the brethren. We think over a church, over an institution.

Karen Strong [00:54:01] I'm thinking Lehi, right? Who has an authentic message. But he's not the head of anything except for his family. Denver's the head of his family. Right? He's not. He's not. So, but do I believe he is a prophet in the sense of the scriptural sense? He has stood in God's presence and has an authorized, legitimate message? Yes. By that time, I already believe that. And. But it still doesn't mean I'm never always questioning. Right? I'm still always questioning because this is a very scary journey.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] This is scary.

Karen Strong [00:54:33] This is not easy. And so, I mean, especially. Yeah, I got my husband over here who works.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Were you worried about her? So when she starts going to these Denver stuff for meetings, knowing he's being excommunicated, that's got to make you worry?

Kirk Strong [00:54:45] Well, I had met several that their spouse was the Lone Ranger. In fact, there were a couple of LDS people that I were close to that had the same reservations I did. Their spouse had both feet in, and they were a little bit more cautious. That, you know, some people get revelation really quick, others really get it slow. And. And I. I kind of got to the point where I'm not sure I was even ready to deal with that pressure, you know, and so I let her deal with it. I stayed close to it. The problem is she bought the DVD set or the CD set.

Karen Strong [00:55:36] Every time a talk was given, a recording was made. And you could actually. Now, I got to say this also, I want to make this really clear. Number one, Denver, he doesn't like people talking about him, so this would maybe make him uncomfortable. But he paid for every venue himself.

Karen Strong [00:55:54] Nobody paid anything. When you went to this didn't cost you anything except for the. If you drove to get there. Right. But that didn't even matter because every talk was then put on the Internet. You weren't even required to drive anywhere. You could get everything for free.

Karen Strong [00:56:09] There is no priestcraft involved. He would pay everything out of his own pocket for a venue, which would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. I'm sure by the time he was done with everything and it was made available, he asked somebody if they would make recordings. And that person, because. Because it did cost them money. You did pay that person, but it was only to cover that man's cost. And anything. If there was ever anything left over beyond his cost, then it was donated to the missionary fund of the church. Just to say that.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] And you feel super worried or concerned about mentioning that.

Karen Strong [00:56:45] Why not about mentioning that?

Kirk Strong [00:56:48] I just want priest crap.

Karen Strong [00:56:51] Right. I just want.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] So that's a big no, no for you guys?

Kirk Strong [00:56:53] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:56:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] Priestcraft.

Karen Strong [00:56:54] Priestcraft, which you define as doing anything for gain, for the gain or even for the notoriety. It doesn't have to always be praise, honor. Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Spiritual.

Karen Strong [00:57:08] Right. And so what he's doing is on an errand for the Lord. And I just wanted to make it clear because we're trying to explain to you and to your audience what's going on with this movement. We Refer to Denver's name a lot. I'm just saying that would make him uncomfortable because I want to make it always clear it's not about Denver. Does that make sense? That's what I would just want to be careful. I always want to remind people that it's about Jesus Christ. But there is a messenger. But he's just like everybody else.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] So Richard's saying, then why did they record and sell DVDs, CDs.

Karen Strong [00:57:47] That's. I think I just explained that there was a guy, his name was Doug Menenhall, and he out of his own pocket bought equipment to make the recording. And so this, the selling of the CD CDs was just to compensate him.

Kirk Strong [00:58:03] Cost.

Karen Strong [00:58:04] They were very much a cost. And nothing would.

Kirk Strong [00:58:07] It was not commercial. You had to go to. They weren't put in stores or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] And real quick, Candace writes, this is just going into one of the doctrinal things. All people can be prophets. Question mark. Then anyone can be a prophet over the church. Question mark.

Karen Strong [00:58:25] Okay. That's why I was trying to clarify. When we think of prophets, we think of prophet over the church. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about ahead of an institutional organization church. What we think when we say prophet, we think of President Monson. It's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the scriptural sense where Moses said would to God that all the children of Israel were prophets, meaning every one of you is invited to know Jesus Christ personally. And when you know and have that witness from him of your status to him as a son or daughter of God declared from his mouth to you, that is the spirit of prophecy. That is what a prophet is.

Kirk Strong [00:59:09] In 2016, April, listening to the CDs when he bore his testimony, I knew it was true from head to toe, but I knew that meant something else.

Karen Strong [00:59:33] But that's jumping ahead.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] But it's a beautiful testimony you're getting. You're sort of getting emotional there.

Kirk Strong [00:59:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] What made you want to say that?

Kirk Strong [00:59:45] Because it's something I didn't want. I didn't want that testimony because I knew what would be ahead if I accepted it. I was going to change my life. I'm going to lose my friends, I'm going to lose my family. I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my neighbors,

Karen Strong [01:00:13] our good name.

Kirk Strong [01:00:14] I'm going to lose my name. I'm going to lose everything. And the Lord said, well, it's up to you. The next day I Went in, applied for retirement.

Karen Strong [01:00:31] Wow.

Kirk Strong [01:00:33] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:00:35] Early. And you got to understand audience we still have. Because we married late. He married. He was 40. I was 20, just turned 24. And we have seven kids. And we had. The last. Our youngest is seven. We have five unmarried children like that were 16 and under at the time that he's retiring. And he actually wanted to work till he was 73, you know.

Kirk Strong [01:01:01] Yeah, I had plans for this. Was really cutting it off.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] So I didn't want to cut that testimony short because it was so powerful. But I also know that you were kind of. So tell us just a little bit more about your experiences going to the 10 events.

Attending the Ten Talks and Spiritual Experiences

Karen Strong [01:01:18] 10 events were awesome, everyone. I mean, first one starts with courage and faith was talked about. Repentance, they were all given in a certain order. The priesthood was talked about. Zion was talked about. Christ was talked about in Ephraim, the seventh talk.

Karen Strong [01:01:38] And I would just highly recommend to anyone, you can find these on the Internet. In fact, Denver has a site called denver snuffer.com and. And on his downloads, you have to go on the downloads page. Pretty much everything on there I would read. But there's a link to these 10 talks somewhere on there.

Karen Strong [01:01:59] And the seventh talk is on Jesus Christ. And that was over three hours long. And it was the most powerful talk on Jesus Christ that I have ever heard. And I listened to these talks over and over and over. And it's very interesting because every time I listen to them, I still learn something new.

Karen Strong [01:02:23] And this one opened my eyes to who Christ really was, how he became the Son of God. It opened up the understanding of eternal progression and Jacob's ladder and understanding what it means for us in our personal journey that Christ is the prototype of the saved man.

Karen Strong [01:02:49] And as a result, each of us must become precisely like him, which has profound implications. Very, very, very deep doctrine, which is what Joseph Smith left off with on the King Follett discourses. He was trying to give a hint to the people of what the eternal journey is really all about. And when a year after the talks, that book, the talks, finally came out in book form. And even though I was there at that talk and I had heard the Talk on these DVDs several times, when I read that talk again, I literally had a quaking of the bones, which I've never experienced before. And it was such.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] What's the quaking of the bones?

Karen Strong [01:03:36] Don't know how to explain it. It was just literally within my bones.

Kirk Strong [01:03:40] Right. To the marrow.

Karen Strong [01:03:41] Yes, to the marrow, to the core. A literal, like Energy, a vibration in them. So quaking is, I guess, the best expression. You know, it's not a tingling. It wasn't a burning of the bosom. This was a quaking of the bones. And it was soaked such a. And I'm going, this is probably the 10th time I've heard these words. And so that was. That was one. And then where was that again?

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Seventh.

Karen Strong [01:04:07] That was in Ephraim, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] And the funny thing, I'm not seeing it on Denver's website, I want to.

Karen Strong [01:04:12] There's a spot on it where he says the 10. The. Oh, here it is at the very top where it says the 40 years of Mormonism. Then it links you to the talks.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] Okay, so you're. You're talking about the Ephraim One.

Karen Strong [01:04:21] The Ephraim One on Christ.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] Going to paste that in our, in our notes so our listeners can watch it.

Karen Strong [01:04:27] Absolutely. Absolutely. That if you're into wanting to understand Christ, that that's a powerful talk. And leaving, beginning off where Joseph Smith left with just before he died with the King Follett discourse. Okay, so then, interestingly enough, in April, he gives that talk in June.

Karen Strong [01:04:51] Back up just a little bit. He gave a talk in Colorado right after general conference in April. So he gave five talks, then took a break through the winter and then gave five talks more. And at general conference, it was kind of a big deal because a lot of people who were going to his talks and felt like me, he had just been excommunicated.

Karen Strong [01:05:17] For me, that was like an abinadi being sent before the leadership and being rejected. Okay, this is how I believe it to be that you have a church that has increasingly gone off course. God calls a messenger out outside of the hierarchy, following a pattern, just like he did with John the Baptist.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] Jesus.

Karen Strong [01:05:47] Jesus, Yep. Out of the. This is what he does. He's so great because he. He tests you. And we're not going to get away in this generation thinking, oh, we got it easy. We can't be, oh, we got it. We're just going to go coast into exaltation. Just stay attached to the church. He's going to do the same pattern he has always done. He's going to flank it all, and he's going to test you.

Kirk Strong [01:06:08] You.

Karen Strong [01:06:09] Can you identify a true messenger when one is sent to you to declare a message. And so I believed, and a lot of people in this movement believed, that the church, Denver Snuffer, had appealed his excommunication all the way up to the First Presidency and members of the quorum of the 70 were personally involved with his excommunication. Talking to a stake president on the phone. At least two members of the quorum of the 12 were involved. Members of the 70 were involved.

Karen Strong [01:06:41] And he appealed to the first presidency. So every quorum of the church, the highest quorums, were involved personally in his excommunication. So the big debate was, are you in the April conference when they raise your hand to sustain in the Saturday afternoon session, are you going to say you sustain these men as prophets, seers and revelators or not? Because they just cast out somebody that you believe is an authorized messenger and is God watching to see what you'll do.

Karen Strong [01:07:13] So I personally. And this took a lot of guts. I personally on that. Well, it didn't really take a lot of guts. But, you know, all my life I've raised my hand, right? And of course, we were watching it church. But at ward conference that year, you know, know how they do the same thing at ward conference? Well, we had word conference slightly before general conference. And I actually slipped out into the four year because I didn't want people to see. And I raised my arm in opposition.

Kirk Strong [01:07:39] Whoa.

Karen Strong [01:07:40] Because that was a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] What year?

Karen Strong [01:07:42] This is 2014. So he got excommunicated in September. He did. He appeals and doesn't get his appeal back until after October conference. Right. So that he's been rejected. And now the first conference is April and he's halfway through his talks. And so I just didn't.

Kirk Strong [01:07:59] I stayed in the conversation.

Karen Strong [01:08:01] Yeah, he just sat there. And I don't think he did anything.

Kirk Strong [01:08:03] I didn't.

Karen Strong [01:08:04] I don't think you raised yes or no. You just sat there. But I felt I need to do this. But I was too. I didn't want him to be in trouble because of me. Right. So I'd go out in the hallway and do it. But anyway, so what happens in 2014 that I wanted to share was this is getting scary. This is getting big. Right. And so I'm always asking the Lord, okay, Heavenly Father, I believe that what I am doing hearing is true and this is a true messenger. But I need you to tell me again, right? I'm always asking that I need to know.

Karen Strong [01:08:38] And one night I had a really, really serious prayer. And this is about April 14th. And I said, I approached it with a lot of faith and I expected God to answer me. And I said, heavenly Father, is the church really in a state of apostasy?

Karen Strong [01:09:00] What is their condition? Is the teaching, follow the prophet? He can't lead you astray incorrect. Is that a form of idolatry? And is Deborah Snuffer a true messenger from you? Okay, so I go to bed, and I'm like, all right, he's going to speak to me. I don't know. He's going to give me a dream or if an angel is going to come. But I'm going to put a notebook right by my bed because I was trying to show the Lord my faith, you know, that I knew he would answer me. And I don't have dreams.

Karen Strong [01:09:37] I mean, we all have dreams, but I don't have dreams that I remember. Early in the morning, I had a dream. And I won't go into the details of the dream, but it was very symbolic in nature. And I'm at church, and this is just a sketch of it. I'm at church, but it's kind of like a general conference. Even though I'm sitting in our church building and President Monson walks in from the side of the building, and everybody stands and rises, and everybody is just oohing and ahhing. I mean, it is. It is gawking right as he walks in, and he's smiling and waving and shaking hands and all the typical things.

Karen Strong [01:10:19] And I am there by myself and with one of my daughters, and I am the only person sitting with my daughter. We do not stand. And he comes over, and everybody's reaching to him and grabbing and just standing, staring, just staring.

Karen Strong [01:10:36] And he comes over and lays his hands on my head. Monson does, and he gives me a blessing. And in the blessing, he says that I am not to be afraid to pursue finding truth in other avenues. I'm expecting him to say, you know, and then he says, you will find the Lord through the Book of Mormon. Now, you have to understand to me at this point that I look at the Book of Mormon as the second comforter text. It's the instruction manual of how you receive the second comforter. So this is very profound. This is a key teaching that Denver is a consequence of what Denver taught, that the Book of Mormon was this text manual.

Karen Strong [01:11:28] So for him to put his hands on my head and say, don't be afraid to find truth in other avenues, and you will find the Lord through the second cover is huge. Then after he takes his hands off my head, I'm. I'm amazed at how big his stature is. But. But it's not about how tall he is. It's about.

Karen Strong [01:11:46] It's about how the people are viewing him larger than life, right? And for a brief moment, I'm able To read his mind. This is all in the dream. I'm able to read his mind. And in the dream, everybody is viewing him. Give me this blessing. And everybody is just in awe.

Karen Strong [01:12:05] And inside he thinks, and I'm not attributing this thought to him. This is just the Lord teaching me something. It was. He was thinking, I've still got it. I've got the ability. And then he walks out and everybody's still gawking. And I'm sitting there and I ask the Lord. Immediately the dream goes through my mind a second time, and I get up and I write it down. And then I ask the Lord for an interpretation, and he gives me an interpretation. And the interpretation, the general gist of it is that I was clearly told Denver was a true messenger, that the message he is teaching is to bring me to Christ.

Karen Strong [01:12:48] This will be the consequence of it. Heed what is saying and don't be afraid. I was told also that the church does participate in idolatry with how they worship the brethren, and that that's what I was observing and that things were being done to be seen of men, to be. To be witnessed and noticed. And then I was told also as I was sitting there, I was the only one sitting. I was not to participate in that. With my family, we were not to participate in that. But for the time being, for the time being, this is 2014. I was still to remain connected with the church.

Karen Strong [01:13:29] So this is making sense. So it's okay to still be here. And there are people, they do experience the Holy Ghost. People can get inspiration, but the church was in a state. State of increasing apostasy and doing things to be seen of man and for the honors of the world.

Karen Strong [01:13:49] Very hard to hear, but I don't get dreams. I've only had two spiritual dreams in my life, and that was the first. So I just wanted to share that in that process.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] Thank you. Thank you. And. And just to clarify, as you contemplated that tree, that dream, days and weeks after, or even months, I'm sensing that you didn't sort of interpret that as Thomas S. Monson's mind and will, but him as a. As a referencing.

Karen Strong [01:14:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Kind of as a metaphorical figure.

Karen Strong [01:14:22] Absolutely. This is not to be critical of anyone in particular.

John Dehlin [01:14:25] No, I don't mean critical.

Karen Strong [01:14:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] I'm saying, not approving by him of you.

Karen Strong [01:14:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] He was a symbolic.

Karen Strong [01:14:31] He was symbolic of the church as a whole and. And the hierarchy as a whole and where we are as an institutional organization.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] And did you think of that as basically meaning that the church was okay with you taking that path?

Karen Strong [01:14:45] No, that the Lord was okay. I knew the church was.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] So in some ways, Thomas S. Monson was representing the Lord, the Lord's will in that dream for you.

Karen Strong [01:14:55] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he gives a blessing, and that was telling me, you know, there are good people. This isn't about things thinking. Because one of my. One of the common things is people will say, well, the church can't be an apostasy because I experienced the Holy Ghost. I experience answers to my prayer. I've had amazing blessings with priesthood. And I'm going, yeah, you still can, because this is individual. This is individual. You connecting with God. God will answer anyone who is sincere in their desires to pursue a relationship with him. So does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:15:27] Yeah. Yeah, it does. Okay. So my. My. My battery on my phone is running out, and so we're gonna have to go grab lunch pretty soon, so let's. What I want to do is take us to the point where things start getting really serious, and maybe, Kirk, that's going to involve you. So. So as Karen is having this spiritual experience. Experience. You've been sort of putting things on pause a little bit now. She's had this overwhelming witness. She's no longer raising her hand to sustain leaders. Talk to us about how you get brought along in this journey. Well, obviously you told us about your witness.

Kirk Strong [01:16:15] Yeah, I'm excited. Anything between her witnesses, the witness. I've had several witnesses. I sensed Denver was telling the truth all the way along because he was speaking the words of God. What I finally got to was that I finally asked the Lord in April of 2016, because it was so emotional for me that I. I said to him, I didn't ask him if it was true. I said, I know this is true. I can feel it. And I could feel it in every fiber of my being. And I said, that means Heavenly Father, I probably need to terminate my employment. And I said, and this is two

John Dehlin [01:17:14] years after her experience. Right. So you just slowly. You slowly kept progressing. And then a couple years later. What year again?

Kirk Strong [01:17:21] 2016.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] This is last year.

Kirk Strong [01:17:24] Well, April.

Karen Strong [01:17:26] A year and a half.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] This is a year ago.

Karen Strong [01:17:27] A year and a half ago.

Kirk Strong [01:17:28] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:17:29] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [01:17:30] And I. And I said, could I wait till the end of the year and. And just retire then? And I can remember what it was

John Dehlin [01:17:41] feeling like to the Lord or to byu?

Kirk Strong [01:17:43] To the Lord.

John Dehlin [01:17:44] Okay, so you're conversing with the Lord.

Kirk Strong [01:17:45] Yeah. And I just had this distinct feeling, like a father does with his son. He just looks at Me, like, is that the right thing to do? No, it wasn't. Once I knew. I'm not going to play games with byu. I love byu. I love the people byu. I love the church. I don't have anything really negative to say about people other than I'm disappointed that they've let things just slip away without people saying, hey, let's bring it back. Let's bring it back.

Deciding to Leave and Being Rebaptized

John Dehlin [01:18:19] What was at stake for you in leaving when you left

Karen Strong [01:18:25] less money with a lot of kids.

Kirk Strong [01:18:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] You mean just losing your salary or was there more?

Kirk Strong [01:18:30] No. Well, let me put. When I. When I retired within, it was really interesting because I guess the Lord knew something. Our temple recommends expired in July, and I retired. It takes 90 days to process everything, so the earliest I could retire and get it processed was June 30. In July, our temple recommend expired, and at the end of July, we went in. And so by end of June, you'd reached the age of retirement and officially

John Dehlin [01:19:15] retired and had retired.

Kirk Strong [01:19:16] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] Okay. Okay. And then your temple recommend expires.

Kirk Strong [01:19:19] And then our temple recommend expires. And the question was, is. Where we've talked about this, we're not going to renew it because we can't answer a question. The question is, is, do you sustain President Montz as a prophet, seer, and revelator? My exact words were to the bishop, I can sustain him as president of the church. And he's a good president, and he's an excellent man. I. I like President Monson. I think he's a great man. I love the church. I love byu. I still think it's one of the best universities on the face of the Earth.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Just not the football team right now.

Kirk Strong [01:20:02] Yeah. Right. And I love the people I worked with and worked for, but I had to be honest. If I'm going to be honest, why are we going to play this games? So we answered that we.

Karen Strong [01:20:20] But this is. This is actually jumping ahead of the story, because I will just say the 10th talk that Denver gives in Phoenix ups the ante on everything. How the tenth talk is huge.

John Dehlin [01:20:32] For you or for him or for both?

Karen Strong [01:20:33] For anybody that's listening to his message, the 10th talk is something that you go, either I believe this or I'm out of here.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] What did he say to up the ante?

Karen Strong [01:20:45] Well, because on this one, he had actually mentioned this slightly before. In the Colorado talk on Zion, he talked about tithing. How tithing's intent was to bless the poor. It's not to pay a hierarchy and build a thousand temples across you know, and chapels and all of this other stuff that.

Karen Strong [01:21:07] So he invited in May to you could experiment with tithing and actually perhaps get it directly to the poor. But in the 10th talk was huge because he invited people to be rebaptized. And this is. That was huge because if you get rebaptized and you understand the church handbook, you know, you just violated something against the handbook and you're going to be in trouble. But if you understand church history, you understand that rebaptism was very common. Re baptism is always required when the Word, when the Lord starts something new. Also re baptism. Emma was baptized, re baptized several times. Joseph Smith was re baptized, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff.

Karen Strong [01:21:58] When they came to Utah, there was the Reformation that took place, and everybody was getting rebaptized. Rebaptism is not a big deal, and it didn't even stop until well into the 1900s. But this, again, is a control thing.

Karen Strong [01:22:13] There's nothing wrong with being rebaptism. It's showing an expression to the Savior of your devotion to him. But if you are a mainstream Mormon, you understand you're going to be in trouble if you do this right. But if you believe what God's doing, you also want to respond to his invitation.

Karen Strong [01:22:32] So, and then the other thing was, he spoke about taking the sacrament and using wine or grape juice to do that, as those are the true emblems that the Lord instituted in the sacrament that we need to go back to performing ordinances as they're to be, as they're explained, to be performed and not altering them. And he also talked about, you can remain a member of any church you want to. You could still remain Mormons, but there are a lot of people who are now believing who are already being cast out.

Karen Strong [01:23:08] And so we spoke about meeting in groups in homes, so up the ante. I mean, several things were talked about that you had to determine. Now, do I really believe this message or do I not? Because you're now going to lay everything on the line. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Yeah, sure.

Karen Strong [01:23:30] So, yeah, I mean, it takes him a couple years.

Kirk Strong [01:23:32] So we. We lost our temple recommended and we started a dialogue with the bishop. And that was a month after I retired. I didn't know this was going to happen real fast.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] July, August of 16.

Kirk Strong [01:23:50] Yeah. And then I got baptized in September.

Karen Strong [01:23:55] I had already been baptized. I got baptized right away.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] How was the baptism for both of you? You go first, Kirk.

Kirk Strong [01:24:04] The baptism. How many.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] How was that for you?

Kirk Strong [01:24:06] Yeah, it was great.

John Dehlin [01:24:07] Where were you baptized?

Kirk Strong [01:24:09] I was Baptized in a reservoir.

John Dehlin [01:24:12] Which one can you say? Or is that sensitive?

Kirk Strong [01:24:14] It's sensitive.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] Okay. Okay. In a reservoir.

Kirk Strong [01:24:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] I read Living Waters. Is that important? What does that mean?

Kirk Strong [01:24:22] Living Waters means that, you know, it's. It's not a man made font. Font. If it's high preferences for that. If you had no other place to do it than the font would work, but okay. Living Waters mean it's kind of symbolic of Christ.

Karen Strong [01:24:41] Is the living water natural?

Kirk Strong [01:24:43] Natural, not man made. Okay.

Karen Strong [01:24:46] Rivers.

Kirk Strong [01:24:47] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:24:48] Lakes.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Can you say who baptized you or are you not feeling comfortable saying that?

Kirk Strong [01:24:51] I wouldn't feel comfortable.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] Can you say how you felt?

Kirk Strong [01:24:55] Great.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] What it meant to you? What did it mean to you?

Kirk Strong [01:24:59] Well, I hardly remember my first baptism when I was 8 years old. This one I remember distinctly, but one of the reasons I remember. Is it so cold. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] Water wizard.

Kirk Strong [01:25:16] Anyway, it meant a lot to me, but I did not know that. Just not answering the question on the temple recommend and resigning from my gospel doctrine teaching position and getting baptized. I did not know that their reaction was going to be so quick and so swift that they were going to start the processes for excommunication.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] We'll say that for post lunch. Okay. But it's meaningful to you. Can you tell us about who baptized you, where you're baptized, or what?

Karen Strong [01:26:03] I can. I actually was baptized in first in November of 2013, so before this 10th talk was given.

John Dehlin [01:26:12] So he was after three years before your husband or.

Karen Strong [01:26:16] Yeah, yeah, but she got my permission. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:20] Permission. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Permission? What do you mean? Do you need permission?

Karen Strong [01:26:24] Well, no, but I'm not gonna do something that could jeopardize the covenant of

Kirk Strong [01:26:28] a husband and wife.

Karen Strong [01:26:29] To me, to me, we're the same person. So I can't put him at Jeopardy.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Right.

Karen Strong [01:26:35] And so I just. He knew I was doing it.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] And you were still attending your ward?

Karen Strong [01:26:39] Yes, in fact, I went on a Sunday while he was teaching gospel doctrine. And I had my son in law. This is the first time.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] So he missed it.

Karen Strong [01:26:47] He missed it. This was me with my son in law and my daughter that are married. And I asked him and we went of all places, terrible, terrible. To Utah Lake. And if, you know, in November, I mean, we were into mud up to our knees getting in there. It was the coldest thing. It was November. Yes, it was cold.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] That's crazy.

Karen Strong [01:27:14] And you have to know, I don't get in cold water. This was. This was like a huge.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] Why would you do without your husband?

Karen Strong [01:27:21] Because, remember, I told you that I finally was coming to love Christ in a way that I never had before. I wanted to show him my love for him as an adult. I mean, you know, eight years old is great, but I wanted to show him that he meant everything to me.

Kirk Strong [01:27:44] And John, here's a real interesting sideline is I had always prayed to God before I got married that I wanted a companion that loved God more than me. And she does, she does love God with all every fiber she's got. And that's what I love about her, besides a lot of other things.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] You want her loving God more than you?

Kirk Strong [01:28:09] Oh, absolutely.

Karen Strong [01:28:10] That's what we teach our kids. We teach our kids. Marry somebody who loves God more than you and you will always be. If you love God, you will treat your partner as you would want to be treated. You know, you see what I'm saying? If you love God, you're not going to be unfaithful to your spouse. You'll always be. Yeah. You'll always tell the truth.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Be kind.

Karen Strong [01:28:35] Yeah. So that's, that's the greatest thing I

Kirk Strong [01:28:38] could teach a kid secrets.

Karen Strong [01:28:41] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] So you went and got baptized without him in freezing water. Because I didn't want freezing dirty water.

Karen Strong [01:28:46] Because if I got caught, right. I know this is excommunication. I'm not going to put my husband in that position. And my son in law was just fine and dandy to do, to do it.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:28:56] So that was the first time. And then I was baptized the second

John Dehlin [01:28:58] time and what you mean a third time?

Karen Strong [01:29:00] After. After, then after Denver, after the 10th talks. That was before. That was just because that wasn't because Denver said it. It was because the Lord told me. And I'd been thinking about it for two years. But I was so afraid to do it because I was so afraid to get in trouble. Right. And I had known for two years I should do this. And so that one in 2013 was just because the Lord had inspired me to do it. The next time was in October, he gave the talk, the 10th talk in September. And in October I was baptized. And this was to signify to the Lord my devotion to him also, but also in a response to a message is being delivered that I believe is authentically from God. And I'm going to respond to the invitation that is being asked. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:29:54] Sure.

Kirk Strong [01:29:55] So then I've had an opportunity to baptize her since we're reminded about how

Karen Strong [01:30:01] when he did his again, I did it again so that I could do

Kirk Strong [01:30:04] it with them and that we're reminded with how Joseph would baptize Emma even just for. To help heal when they were sick. Thanks. So.

John Dehlin [01:30:16] And it sounds like excommunications kind of when. I'm sorry, Baptism was kind of like when both of you got baptized and when you retired from BYU and started talking to the bishop, that's when things kind of got real. Is that right?

Karen Strong [01:30:32] Yeah. Then it's a whole other interesting story with lots of stuff.

Kirk Strong [01:30:35] Yeah, lots of stuff.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 837

Karen Strong [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the next segment in my interview with Kirk and Karen Strong. It's November 28, 2017. We spent the early part of the day talking about their experiences in the LDS Church, their marriage, about Kirk working at BYU for many years and teaching Book of Mormon and religion at BYU for many years.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Karen, how she gave up law school and a potential professional career to be an LDS mother and housewife. How they for many, many years believed in orthodox Mormonism and were very devout. But over time, as adults, started feeling more and more like the church was kind of going astray. We talked about how they really started feeling that way in the mid to late 90s and early 2000s. Then about how they learned about Denver Snuffer and the books that he was releasing and how Karen started down the road of really starting to follow a different path and how Kirk trailed by a few years. But by, let's just say 2013, 2000, 2013ish.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] Kirk was ready to retire after. After receiving a revelation. 2016, Kirk received sort of a revelation telling you it was time to retire from byu. And Karen had already been rebaptized twice by that point. And they were ready to follow the teachings of Christ as conveyed by Denver Snuffer and others more devoutly. So that's kind of where we are. Did I summarize it? Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:02:19] Yeah. Great.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And. And so now, basically, I'm just going to acknowledge that we're live streaming this on Facebook Live, and we do that for a very specific reason. We really like. We really like to have people, you know, interactively involved in what we're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] So please post comments and questions if you're joining us live through Facebook. We would love to have you participate with us in this. That makes our conversations more interactive. So please also let us know if the audio is okay. If the audio is too loud or the audio is too soft, I will do my best to modulate it. But we want to thank everyone for joining us. And so now the way we left it was that you guys, Kirk, you retired from byu, got rebaptized.

Relationship With the Church Begins to Fracture

John Dehlin [00:03:17] You got rebaptized with them. Right, Karen, for your third time. Right. And so let's talk about how your relationship with the church started to fray. Who wants to begin?

Kirk Strong [00:03:31] Well, we had a friend that actually, when we were talking casually, he was alarmed at our statement that we didn't really think that President Monson was a true prophet, seer, and revelator. We thought that he was a great president and a very good man. And he immediately caught on the phone and called our stake president and said that we needed some. Some attention of some sort.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Okay, so how did this person find out about your beliefs? What happened?

Kirk Strong [00:04:16] Oh, we were just in a casual conversation, and one thing led to another, and so came up. He was concerned about my facial hair that I. That I grew up. This is.

Karen Strong [00:04:30] This is like four. He retired June 3rd. This conversation is happening on July 4th, shortly thereafter. Five days. Yeah, you know, four days after.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Okay, so there's a conversation about your troubling facial hair.

Kirk Strong [00:04:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] And. And you told him what again?

Kirk Strong [00:04:49] Well, we had a conversation that went for a couple hours. And in the conversation, he was concerned because we had made that statement about President Monson and it alarmed him. And so he put in a phone

Karen Strong [00:05:07] call because he was saying. He was saying, now that your husband's retired, he really ought to shave that he never had a beard because he always worked at BYU anyway, but he said he should shave that so that he can be a temple worker. And this person was close enough to us that I realized I better break it to them that at the end of July, I'm probably not going to have a temple recommend because we knew we weren't going to be able to answer the prophets here in Revelator question. And so I thought, I need to be honest with him and start broaching this topic with some people who are very close to me. So that's. That's how it happened. And he felt concerned enough, so he

Kirk Strong [00:05:50] did call the stake president, and the stake president called our bishop, and our bishop then invited us in. We were going to be meeting with the bishop over our temple recommend anyway. So it kind of preceded that by about a week or two.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] And again, you, by that time had told him that you. What followed? Denver Snuffer?

Karen Strong [00:06:14] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] It was.

Karen Strong [00:06:16] In fact, we came home, this friend emailed us and said, by the way, I emailed your bishop and stake president and talked to your state president on the phone. And so we knew we were going to be getting called in. We thought it would be like the next day. I mean, we were just expecting a phone call any day. And so that was like on a Wednesday that we found out that we got called about. And so Sunday, I guess, the 10th of July, I guess it would have been. He was supposed to teach gospel doctrine. I was a Relief Society teacher. He just said, we already know where this is going to go because we're going to be honest. And he gave his gospel doctrine class and said, this is my last Lesson. And it was kind of funny because people, people actually thought that we were getting called as mission presidents.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Because you were the, because you're not devout. Right?

Karen Strong [00:07:12] Yeah, yeah. In our ward.

Kirk Strong [00:07:14] Well, I mean they need a lot of mission presence.

Karen Strong [00:07:17] But, but yeah, that was one of the things that people thought, what, what's the calling? What have you guys got? What's going on? This was. And so that was going on and then I don't know if you ever want to ask me anything about the temple fund thing or come back to that later.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Well, we're definitely going to talk about that.

Karen Strong [00:07:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] But I, I really want to dig into this other first, your, your ward experience. And so just know when we come

Karen Strong [00:07:46] back to that later chronologically, the, the direction from the Lord to do a temple fund comes in the same weekend that all this is happening.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Okay, so talk about that.

Karen Strong [00:07:58] No, that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Talk about it.

Karen Strong [00:08:00] Well, okay, so the Saturday, I guess it's the 9th of July, I have an experience and for me, I would just assume I ended up having to talk about this at a conference in St. George. Can I just read the paragraph? Or that. Okay. Okay. So this is basically.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Now, had you become sort of a real active participant in the movement by this point? Were you just, were you just kind of showing up to stuff or were you actually maybe helping out, volunteering or being a more active part?

Karen Strong [00:08:34] I hadn't really volunteered for anything in particular. I was wanting to be more engaged in being able to fellowship with people who felt the same. I was tired of having to go through this where I'm at church, I can't. I have to monitor what I say, be very careful. Wanted to find a worship with people where I could be free to talk about the Gospel to the degree I really wanted to talk about it. So I was anxious to be able to worship with other like minded people, but other than that, no, I'm just a typical, you know, person in the movement. Nothing special at all.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:09:16] No, but the talk had been given in 2014May about tithing and it being used toward the poor. And then there was just a slight mention about eventually there will be a temple. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] So for two years Denver says this,

Karen Strong [00:09:36] yeah, a temple in Zion. In Zion, prophesied temple. And so for about, for two years I had kind of had in the back of my mind, how do you, how do you ever. Because he had said something about if there was excess, it could be saved toward that. And so it was something on my mind a lot about how do we ever gather Funds, when there's no organization, there's nothing.

Karen Strong [00:10:05] And I had just prayed and asked about it a lot. And one day on the Saturday, this is what happened. This is as I explained it at a conference on July 9, 2016. While again contemplating the matter of what the Lord wanted done next in regard to excess funds being saved toward a future temple, I heard the voice of the Lord speak very directly telling me that the time had come to make further financial preparations toward this end and that a means was now needed to allow for a collection of the excess tithing funds that individuals and fellowships had acquired or would yet acquire, and that the excess needed to be gathered into united fund so that when the time came to do the required work, there would be an immediate access available in order to respond without delay.

Karen Strong [00:10:52] It was impressed upon my mind that the faith of people would be tried, but that this would also enable any and every individual that desired to show their faith and respond to the invitation. This united pooling of our excess tithes was the very means designed by the Lord to now move things forward in preparation. It was made clear to me that two other women were to be involved, making three witnesses. I had previous but limited acquaintance with these women, but saw their faces at the time I received the instruction and knew without a doubt who was to be involved. Together we were to figure out a way to make a general fund available and to manage it.

Karen Strong [00:11:27] While I did not necessarily welcome this instruction when it came and was quite taken back by the very thought of what was being asked, the direction was very clear and came in a manner that I knew through experience was the voice of the Lord speaking to me. The three of us communicated, and each of these women also received a personal witness that this assignment was the will of the Lord as well as each of our husbands. None of us would go forward in such a monumental undertaking without complete support and approval of our companions. We hoped we could do this anonymously, but the answer we each received was a definite no.

Karen Strong [00:12:06] We knew that moving forward on this request by the Lord would not only cause the loss of our names and reputation among opponents of this work, but would even cause feelings of doubt or accusation among many of those we had come to consider kindred spirits in our quest for greater light and truth. False motives would certainly be attached to our names as a result of obeying what the Lord had asked. Additionally, we knew the public nature of our involvement would potentially result in ecclesiastical discipline for each of us. So that's all that I. I just wanted to share that because I know that There has been.

Karen Strong [00:12:43] This ends up being part of why we get excommunicated. But there has been confusion among people in my ward because if you type in my name on the Internet, it will come up that I was giving this temple fund talk later on. I could tell you my stake president read it. A member of the 70 read it.

Karen Strong [00:13:03] And I just wanted to give just a little background so that people would be aware how that came about. That it's not part of an institution, that money is managed by the three of us women and it is just held in reserve. It's just sitting there. And when the Lord requires it, it will be there. And it's not for any priestcraft issue, nothing like that. No one's getting paid. Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Is it called tithing?

Karen Strong [00:13:35] It's called the temple fund. But so, so what it would just be, is if in your fellowship you had excess funds that you wanted to contribute toward that you could. It's not nothing required. It is just a. It's just a fund that exists. But it confuses some people because they think that that's a sign that we're an organization. In fact, we were recommended by attorneys to organize as a 501C3. A whole bunch of things. This is not an. This is. There's just no institution. There's no formal organization.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:14:10] So that's all I really wanted to say about that. Just to clarify that because it causes some confusion.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Sure.

Karen Strong [00:14:15] Among people.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] Okay, so. So let's talk about how things progressed. Well, was it first with immediate family and then with the bishop or was it.

Kirk Strong [00:14:27] Right. Well, just that one conversation. And then it progressed to that person called the stake president. Stake president called the bishop, asked the bishop to handle it. He called us in. We have a great bishop. We love him very much. And we, we had a discussion with

Karen Strong [00:14:50] him and we gave him a 40 page. A 40 page letter to the stake president and the bishop explaining our position scripturally.

Kirk Strong [00:15:00] Yeah. And so I'm sure the.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] The bishop gets overwhelmed by that. Right.

Kirk Strong [00:15:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Most bishops haven't really thought about this stuff. They haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Kirk Strong [00:15:10] He took it and. And got back with this after he had completely read it and made notes on it, had questions on it. We had several discussions with the bishop who really went to great lengths to make sure that he understood exactly what was going on and what our position was. And he was working with us.

Kirk Strong [00:15:38] And he had never gotten to the stake president to our knowledge. And then all of a sudden the stake president called and wanted to meet with us because I think because of your talk down in St. George and because some people in the ward had made some observations about us. And we're claiming that we were starting our own church and having people over to our house for were study groups and all of this stuff. So he was getting a little bit concerned and he was great.

Kirk Strong [00:16:21] He's a great guy. We really liked him. And so then we entered in lengthy discussions with him and he asked us a lot of questions and he actually came to the conclusion that he would need to, you know, pray and think about it. And he'd invite us back, ask a few more questions, then we'd come back. And finally he got to the point where he actually asked us to, that he was considering having disciplinary action.

Kirk Strong [00:16:57] But he wanted to know if we would be willing to do the following. And he read us off a list of things that he wanted us to do. And you remember the list better than I do.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Real quick. As you were trying to explain to him your understanding of the scriptures, you're reading the scriptures of the doctrine of past statements, how did your bishop or stake president respond when you tried to have substantive discussions, your beliefs?

Karen Strong [00:17:29] I'll answer that. The bishop was really good. He really did try to. He said, you know, when we first, after the 40 page letter, he said, okay, you're talking up here. And

Kirk Strong [00:17:44] to the, to the temple recommend questions are kind of up here at a graduate school level, but the questions are really meant for kindergarten level.

Karen Strong [00:17:54] You can answer this on a kindergarten. He was so nice, he wanted so much to not remove the temple recommend from us. But we were just honest with him and said, listen, we know we could sit here and fudge through this and figure out a way to answer this question on a very basic level and feel justified. But we're to the point, we're far enough in this and understanding what's going on that we want to just be completely honest. But he said to me, after he read the first 40 page letter, he said the question he had was, okay, so if you don't think that they're true prophets, seers and revelators in the way that the scriptures explain, can you at least tell me, do you think that Christ is still leading the church?

Karen Strong [00:18:41] And so then we gave him a 50 page letter, a 50 page letter to explain that was not what we thought was happening anymore in the way that people believed it. So but what we did was we went into inactivity. We told them that we needed to just take a break and that we so we basically stopped going to church from like September. And then we meet with the stake president in February. It takes till February before we meet with the state president.

Kirk Strong [00:19:11] And I went into an activity and

Karen Strong [00:19:14] that caused a lot of questions among. Because where'd the Strong go? Okay. They didn't get called as mission presidents. They're still sitting here. Right.

Kirk Strong [00:19:20] We're the largest family in the ward

Karen Strong [00:19:22] and where are those guys? So then the question is, why are the Strong not at church? And that leads to people, you know, jumping to conclusions that without talking to us, you know, nobody asked us about it. We were keeping things pretty quiet with the bishop and everything.

Kirk Strong [00:19:43] We just wanted to go into literally into semi inactivity and just not cause any concerns or stir. But that wasn't to be. People kept asking us, some of them, people would write us letters and what's going on? And every time I'd mow the lawn. Not every time, but often someone would come up and, hey, is there a reason why we don't see a church? And you know, and this. And so we'd ho hum around because

Karen Strong [00:20:14] we had told the bishop we would not divulge.

Kirk Strong [00:20:16] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:20:17] What was really going on because we weren't trying to harm other people's testimony.

Kirk Strong [00:20:21] Right.

Karen Strong [00:20:22] That's not what we're trying to do. But we had to be true to what was going on with us.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] So. So the bishop kind of asks you to be quiet. He engages with you substantively. The stake president, not so much.

Karen Strong [00:20:39] Yeah, the. The stake president. I can show you. I had also written this book. I write a lot, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Let me show. It was blind, but now I see. There. There it is. So this is a different book than the one you referred to earlier.

Karen Strong [00:20:57] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] Now why would you need to write a book if there was Denver Snuffer. Why would you need to write a book?

Karen Strong [00:21:03] Okay, this book.

Kirk Strong [00:21:04] 352 pages.

Karen Strong [00:21:07] Oh, this is a labor of love. This is a labor of love. So because my family so devout lds. Right. My family knew what was going on with me because I was so excited about what's happening. I tried to get.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] You're on fire.

Karen Strong [00:21:20] Yeah, yeah. My parents pled. You know, I have a brother who got excommunicated before I did and I have another sister. So I'm number eight. Number nine brother got excommunicated and number 10 sister is on board. We all have large families. They both have 10 kids themselves. And my parents were just in despair, as most devout LDS would be. You know, they feel like everything is falling Apart with their children. Three children are off in their mind on some apostate avenue, right? And so one day, because I was always trying to be careful with my husband, I was very quiet, and I let my brother take all the heat from the family.

Karen Strong [00:22:07] And one day my parents wrote a letter, and it was the most heartfelt letter. And my mom basically pleading with us, three children to please come back, right? And the spirit convicted me that I had kept my mouth quiet and this wasn't right.

Karen Strong [00:22:24] So I started to respond back in a letter. And the letter then became 20 pages, 30 pages, because I thought, I'm going to explain to them what's really going on to ease their pain, because I love them so much. I want them to understand this is not based in what you think it is. This is sound doctrine, what's going on. And so I began writing, and I ended up spending all summer writing. And then in September, I actually put it aside and I thought, oh, I'm not going to do this after all.

Karen Strong [00:22:55] There's no need for me to do this. This was just a good experience for me. And so I set it aside and figured I was done with it and would never give it to anybody in my family. And then two weeks later, I had that second dream. I told you I had. Have only had two dreams before.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Have you told us about the second dream yet?

Karen Strong [00:23:13] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Is this a dream you can tell us about?

Karen Strong [00:23:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Okay, go for it.

Karen Strong [00:23:18] Okay, so in the dream, I'm. So I put the book down. I'm not doing anything with the book. And in the dream, Joseph Smith comes to me in the dream, and Joseph Smith just keeps repeating a scripture phrase. And it was.

Karen Strong [00:23:37] I haven't looked at my journal for. For a while. I believe it was Third Nephi chapter, just before. Just after the destructions. I want to say chapter 10, verse 5 through 8. So he just keeps repeating the scripture reference and says, you need to read 3rd Nephi, chapter 10, 5 through 8. You need to read 3rd Nephi just several times until I wake up.

Karen Strong [00:24:05] Well, I had already told the Lord, if you have anything else to tell me, you know, know, wake me up from a dream. And so I have a pad of paper by the side of my bed and I write down, okay, this is easy. Joseph Smith, third Nephi 10, five through eight.

Karen Strong [00:24:18] And I fall back asleep. And then another dream starts. And in that dream, I have a sister who calls me from out of state and she says, hey, I'm in town, it's a Sunday, and I have to teach Relief Society In. In the stream, I have to teach Release Society that Sunday. And she calls and she wants to know if she can come visit. And I'm just like, oh, I've got so much in my mind, and I don't want to have to prepare food. And in my mind, I'm thinking, no, I don't want to do this. But then I thought, well, wait, if she comes and visits, all in the dream, if she comes and visits, maybe I can share with her some of what's going on.

Karen Strong [00:24:54] So I say, yeah, sure, come and visit. And she says, you know what? You don't need to fix food for us. We can take care of ourselves. We can prepare our own meal. We just want to come visit you. So she shows up, and I've still got this lesson to go to. And she shows up, she says, oh, Karen, we want to go to Costco to go get the. The food for the meal. She said, but we forgot our Costco card.

Karen Strong [00:25:17] Can you come with us? We'll buy the food. We'll get it. Is it still working? But we just want to know. We just need your help with the Costco card. And so in the dream, I'm like, oh, yeah, I got to get this lesson done. I got to do the Release Society lesson.

Karen Strong [00:25:33] And so I go with them to Costco, use my card to get in. We're in the check stand, and I wake up. And when I wake up, I know immediately that the two dreams go together. And I get up and I tell my husband about it, write him down, and ask the Lord to understand what he was telling me. And I look up the scripture, the third Nephi, 10, 5, 8. And it's about Christ after all the destructions. And they hear his voice. And he says, how often would I have gathered you as a hen gather for chickens? And then at the end, he says that.

Karen Strong [00:26:12] The people weep and wail for the loss of their kindred and family who were destroyed because they would not heed the message of the prophets that were sent. So it's about their families being destroyed and what was coming because they didn't respond.

Karen Strong [00:26:30] And then the interpretation of the Costco thing was that basically, to just make it very short, is the Lord told me that my family was spiritually needing food, but they didn't have the card, and that they needed me to share what I had with them, and they could do the rest of the work after, but I needed to share that they couldn't. They couldn't get what they needed without me helping them. And that sounds that sounds.

Karen Strong [00:27:09] I hope that doesn't sound arrogant, because that's not what it was meant. This is a labor of love. And so I knew he was telling me to pick back up the book and finish it, and so I did. I spent the next nine months finishing it and finished it the same month that he got the answer to retire. And I gave it to my family.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Okay, so your family. So your family knows, but we also

Kirk Strong [00:27:34] gave it to mine eventually, they know also. So.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] And. And that represents your family knowing now where you stand.

Kirk Strong [00:27:42] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] And when you say family, who do you mean?

Karen Strong [00:27:44] I mean, I offered it to all of my brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews and parents, and. And sadly, only a handful said yes, but it doesn't matter because it's there, and it's there for my posterity. And it's a fearful thing to read because for them it would represent. Well, wait, these are all of her thoughts of what took her on this journey. And she's headed out of the church, so it's very scary for somebody to read this. It's not something somebody wants to read.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] What about your children? Did they. Did you share with them?

Kirk Strong [00:28:23] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] The book.

Karen Strong [00:28:24] Yes. Those most aren't, you know, avid readers, but they know through me. Verbally teaching. Yes, verbally. I've taught them all these things.

Conversations With Stake President and Bishop

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Okay, so as you share this now with both of your families, you. You've talked to your stake president, you've talked to your bishop, you've gone inactive, and, you know, and ward members are starting to wonder what's going on. You're quiet. What?

Karen Strong [00:28:50] We gave it to the stake president. That's why we brought it up, because we were talking about the stake president meeting with him. I thought, I'm giving full disclosure. And so I gave him the book. And I said, you read this and then meet with us again.

Kirk Strong [00:29:04] Then we got some letters from some neighbors, and they were asking us if we were starting our own church and what was going on. So the Lord doesn't speak to me that often, but I did wake up one morning and was told to go write this down. And so the Lord asked me to, even though I haven't been to church for several months, to go to the next fast and testimony meeting and bear my testimony. And then at my house offer, because I was being accused of starting a church and teaching false doctrine, I offered an invitation to all the members of the ward that I would teach four lessons and they could come and hear what I was teaching on the parables

John Dehlin [00:30:00] of Christ out of your home.

Karen Strong [00:30:02] And out of my home on the parables of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Because you wanted to kind of set the record straight. Yeah, because of rumors and stuff.

Kirk Strong [00:30:09] Right. But I told the Lord that this is interesting but no one will come, you know, because surely they know that in the elders environment you don't go over to members homes to be taught. That was handbook taboo.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Yeah. Like the Brethren have actually issued statements warning people against meeting, which is kind of cult like. Right?

Kirk Strong [00:30:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] Why would like.

Kirk Strong [00:30:37] So. So I.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] So we.

Kirk Strong [00:30:40] We ex. I called up the bishop and. And told him that we would be extending the invitation.

Karen Strong [00:30:48] Well, you called up the bishop first and said. Asked him if he could bear his testimony because he didn't want the bishop to feel alarmed. And he just said I am going to bear my testimony on Joseph Smith, Jesus. Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Because the bishop knew you were going to be meeting with people at that point. So bishop's getting nervous.

Karen Strong [00:31:06] Yeah, we didn't want him.

Kirk Strong [00:31:07] So I didn't want him to be alarmed that I wasn't going to stand up and start proselyting anybody. So I. So I went up and bore my testimony and it was fascinating because I did bear my testimony of those three things. Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon and Jesus Christ. And I was also told to share my love for the members in the ward. And Karen and I don't have any animosity towards anybody in our ward. We just love everybody to death. And so I just shared that and made that very clear. Then we got a few letters on. We really enjoyed your testimony, but you left out some major components, such as the church is true and that President Monson is a prophet.

Karen Strong [00:31:49] Yeah. And you can't have one. What you said was nice, but you didn't finish it off and you can't really. It's not a complete testimony unless you got that other part. You see what I'm saying? Unless you witnessed.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah, I see what you said.

Karen Strong [00:32:04] And the church is true. You couldn't. Your other part wasn't valid.

Kirk Strong [00:32:08] And so when we met again with the Stake President, one of the conditions he asked is that I would cancel those four classes as he was considering holding disciplinary action. And I politely declined and said the Lord has asked me to do it and I am going to proceed.

Karen Strong [00:32:36] And you invited him to it.

Kirk Strong [00:32:37] And I invited him.

Karen Strong [00:32:39] It's not going to be against the church. There's nothing that's going to be said against the church.

Kirk Strong [00:32:42] The Lord told me to teach the four last parish parables that the Savior taught in his life. And he told me, don't elaborate. Don't tell any of your stories or personal things. You just teach the truth in the gospel. And I said, I will. And I said, but nobody's going to come. And the Lord says, it doesn't matter. You teach and you teach all four of them, even if nobody shows up. You just teach them to your family.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Okay. There are some comments and questions from the audience. Several people want a copy of your book. How do they get a copy of your book? Or do you share it?

Karen Strong [00:33:20] I do. And I'm just trying to think how to do that, because at one point I started a blog and posted it up there. But then I had to take the blog down for. Because I'm not techno and I was all messed up. So I used to link it on there. I'm just trying to think.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] So we'll figure it out.

Karen Strong [00:33:33] We'll figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] We'll figure it out. That's the answer.

Karen Strong [00:33:36] I can email it to them, is what I'm saying. Okay, send it to them.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] So we'll make sure and share your email address. Someone else is asking, how do you talk to God? How does God talk to you? Do you want to share that really quick?

Kirk Strong [00:33:51] Yeah. I'm one of those that really struggle because I don't receive a lot of revelation. I don't have too many dreams in my life or anything like that. It's just really the voice that came into my head, not into my ear, but into my head. And it was. It was so different than the way that I think that I knew it had to come from an outside source. And it brought peace to me. And so I knew it was. It was of the Lord. But I was fascinated because I wanted to see what happened. Why should I go bear my testimony to these people? And why should I teach these four lessons?

Kirk Strong [00:34:29] And it was later revealed to us some of the things that happened, because I followed through and had the courage and was brave. Brave enough to stand up in front of the whole ward and bear a testimony and then to invite people to come. And nobody from the ward actually came. But we did have a lot of people that heard about it that did come.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] No one from the ward.

Kirk Strong [00:34:56] No one from the ward who did come. We had other family, other friends, other people from outside of the war.

Karen Strong [00:35:04] There were some former ward members that came, former ward. There were several people who emailed and said, I wanted to come, but, see, the bishop had to send out a letter after we sent it and saying, don't go. And so then you know we're all obedient LDS people. So if your bishop.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] So the bishop warned the ward not to go.

Karen Strong [00:35:20] And we knew. We knew that. The stake president said, I'm going to have to send. We told the stake president what we were doing, not trying to be sneaky. And he said, I'll have to send a letter to your bishop. And we actually went home and told the bishop. We said, we're about ready to send an invitation to the war. We've already talked to state president. He's going to tell you to send a letter. We want you to know. We know you got to do that. We don't hold any.

Kirk Strong [00:35:41] Everybody so nice. Everything is just so nice and so proper. We just laid it out.

Karen Strong [00:35:45] We know they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.

Kirk Strong [00:35:48] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:35:48] We've been in the church long enough. We know what, what, what's going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] So Taggart. Taggart writes, seems like any ward would be lucky to have this family, and they got kicked out. That's what Taggart writes.

Karen Strong [00:36:03] That's nice.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Scott writes, yes, that's the pattern. So. But you're. It seems like you're working really hard to be above board, to be open with everyone.

Karen Strong [00:36:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] And so the bishop and stake president are warning everyone against you.

Karen Strong [00:36:20] Yeah. And they're having people come to them. And there was letters, emails sent. Stay away from the strongs. I mean, I had a few close friends who would share with me a few things that were being said.

Kirk Strong [00:36:34] It was never coming from the ecclesiastical leaders. It was just coming from neighbors and a few little rumors starting. But even as the rumors started, the stake president, the bishop, would quickly squish it and say, no, the. That's not at all what's happening now.

Karen Strong [00:36:48] The stake president. See, now here's. I will say this. Okay, here's something interesting. In the whole time that we met with the bishop, the name Denver Snuffer never came up once. It only came up with. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Because. Why is that?

Karen Strong [00:37:05] Because it's not about Denver Snuffer.

Kirk Strong [00:37:07] It wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] You mean you never brought it up? You never brought up Denver's name and

Karen Strong [00:37:11] he never brought up. Because it's not about Denver Snuffer.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Okay, but. But yeah, it is. I mean, Denver Snuffer's been excommunicated. You guys are following kind of down that same road. So did they just not know?

Kirk Strong [00:37:25] Well, when you bring up Denver Snuffer, it's kind of like saying he put these thoughts in our mind and in our heart. They were there.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] Before that's for you. But I'm saying from their perspective, I can see them saying these guys are snuff rights.

Karen Strong [00:37:39] Well, for some reason, they never made that connection until. Not until when I did the temple fund.

Kirk Strong [00:37:44] If they did, they were never.

Karen Strong [00:37:46] When the temple fund got announced on Denver Snuffers blog. See, what happened was people were starting to get curious. They type in my name and then it pulled up and that's what started a lot of talking and things.

Karen Strong [00:38:03] And so there was just a lot of misunderstanding as what was going on and fear to talk to us, which is understandable. I get it. I mean, I heard one person said, why don't you go talk to Karen? And she said, well, I'm afraid she's going to try to convert me.

Karen Strong [00:38:18] And so I get it. There's just, you know, an understandable fear and lots of assumptions. And so the stake president actually, in our second or third meeting, we talked for three or four hours each time time he said, well, if you want me to consider not doing a discipline, and I may still even do one even if you do this, but if you want me to not consider doing a discipline, you will have to stop being involved in the temple fund. You will have to not give the talk at the conference that was going to be held in St. George where I was going to speak. You have to not publish this book or give it to anybody else ever again. You will have to renounce your baptism.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Baptisms.

Kirk Strong [00:39:14] And, And I would have to not teach my four.

Karen Strong [00:39:17] And you not teach your four classes.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Yeah, yeah, they're trying to silence you.

Karen Strong [00:39:22] And that was not even a guarantee we wouldn't have the discipline. That was just like, okay, this is like a starting point.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] And that's what happened with me. I was told to shut down Mormon stories, to take down any interview that had ever expressed any doubt or questions about the church, and to never speak publicly again about anything that. So it's basically silence and intimidation.

Karen Strong [00:39:48] Right? And we had already been really quiet and I wasn't going around publishing my book and the conference. The thing is, I said, this is such an obscure conference. Like a thousand people are going to come to it that live all over the United States. I'm going. It's not advertised. Nobody even knows about this.

Kirk Strong [00:40:04] You know, what I couldn't understand is that. And I seriously mean this, and I'm not that naive, I hope, but had they just let us go inactive, this would have all come out and, and, and really come to surface. You know, sometimes I think the church does More damage stirring these things.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [00:40:29] You know, than it does just let, let the dog lie in the road, you know, and hopefully gets run over, you know. But yeah, they just, they, they stirred it up. But the ecclesiastical leaders we dealt with, very kind. In fact, even our are actually disciplinary action court if you want to.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] We'll get there.

Kirk Strong [00:40:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] We'll get there.

Karen Strong [00:40:55] So

John Dehlin [00:40:57] what's tricky about your story is that basically unlike my situation where I'm doubting the Book of Mormon, I'm doubting a literal resurrection, literal atonement, I'm doubting Book of Abraham, I'm questioning the one true church. You guys questioned the one true church idea as it's currently standing. But the things that you were teaching were all very consistent with both Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. And that's got to be particularly tricky for them because you weren't, you know, what were you saying that was out right? Out and out apostasy from their point of view by that time?

Karen Strong [00:41:43] Just that we don't think that the brethren or prophet seers and revelators.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Okay, well that's a big deal.

Karen Strong [00:41:51] So. Well, but you know, it's not because here's why. Because there's a lot of people in this church, I can guarantee you, who don't actually think that they are and they just don't answer the question.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Yeah, of course.

Karen Strong [00:42:06] Because, because technically I would say if you, if you can't accept certain things that the brethren teach and you fight against it and say, well, they're wrong on this, they're wrong, they should, they should be teaching something different than that. In essence you're saying, I don't believe there are prophets here. And revelator, because if you thought they were, then you would say yes, what you're teaching is the will of the Lord, you wouldn't be arguing against it. And so there are all kinds of people in this church that.

Kirk Strong [00:42:32] Let me tell you another experience I had before the, before the final court. Okay. Is that I was reading in the book of John, ninth chapter, and that's the whole chapter 12.

Karen Strong [00:42:47] It might be 12.

Kirk Strong [00:42:48] No, the whole chapter is about the, the man that's healed, the blind man that's. That's healed. Remember, the Lord comes upon him and, and the. His apostles disciples ask him, is he blind because of his parents sin or his sin. And he said no, it's because the manifests the glory of God. And so he takes some spittle and mixes it with the clay and puts it in the man's eyes and tell him to Go to the pool. Salaam and wash. And so the man does that.

Kirk Strong [00:43:26] And all of a sudden, the man can see. And everybody's so interested in this blind man that's been hovering around the community in this pool trying to get healed. And all of a sudden, he's healed. So they take him over to the Pharisees and the Sadducees and they share the story.

Kirk Strong [00:43:48] And they asked the man to rehearse the whole story. So the man tells them the story of how he was healed. And. And they said, well, who do you think this man was? And he said, I don't know. I never saw this man called Jesus of Nazareth, but I can tell you he's. He's. He's a prophet of God. And they were. Remember in the. They were alarmed in the synagogue that he said that. And so they came up with a plan. The plan was, is to go see if they're getting set up. So they said, go get the man's parents.

Kirk Strong [00:44:23] So they went and got the blind man's parents, and they brought them in, and they said, hey, is this your son? They said, yes, it is. They said, has he been blind from birth? And they said, yes, he is. He was, but evidently he can see now. And they said, how is that? And they said, well, ask him. He's of age. And then John gives an editorial comment right there. The reason why the parents asked him, or why they said, ask him, he's of age is because they didn't want to respond because they already had put in their handbook that if anybody acknowledged that Jesus was a prophet or was the Christ, they would be kicked out of the synagogue, cast out, excommunicated.

Kirk Strong [00:45:05] So they didn't want to be excommunicated. And so they go to the man, and the man has to rehearse everything again. And they ask him, is the man that did it, do you think he's a prophet? And he says something to this extent. He says, well, look, since the beginning of mankind, nobody has ever received their sight who was born blind.

Kirk Strong [00:45:29] The man that touched my. My eyes is a prophet of God, otherwise this couldn't happen. And. And they said, well, are you a disciple of his? And he said, all as I know is I can see. And then the blind man says back to him. And they said, tell us again how it happened. And he said, if I tell you again, are you going to be his disciples? And they said, no, we're disciples of Moses. We're not disciples of this man. And. And who are you to teach us anyway? You're. You were born in sin. And they cast him out. Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:46:02] Later on in John's book, in, in. In chapter 12, he tells you that many in the synagogue believed and many of them were leaders, many of the Sadducees, Pharisees, many of the sad. But they would confess it because they knew that they would also be cast out.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] So tell us, translate this for what the story means to you in your. In the context of your overall story.

Kirk Strong [00:46:28] Then it jumps up to chapter 16. The Lord says, when you confess me and it's against their leadership, you will be cast out. You will be killed. Meaning I knew right then and there the Lord was telling me, you're going to get excommunicated because you have gone against their authority. You have gone against them. And the whole argument against Christ was that he had broken a commandment that was man made, that he healed them on the Sabbath, which is a handbook technicality. What did they have against Karen and I? We never broke any commandments. We didn't break any laws. The only thing we did was a couple of handbook little policies that they had. Oh, wow. What. What did we do? You know? Oh, we, we. We were baptized. Wow. That's. That's about the serious thing I've ever heard of, you know.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] You know, but you did start teaching that the. That the brethren kind of had led the church astray.

Karen Strong [00:47:32] No, no. Other than my book, which only was to family, which already knew that we had been dead silent in our. When we taught Relief Society and Gospel doctrine.

Kirk Strong [00:47:43] No. Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] Had you told the bishop would stay president, that you no longer.

Karen Strong [00:47:47] Yes, that was why we didn't get the temple recommend. That was the issue.

Kirk Strong [00:47:51] But that's why I invited the stake president to come over here. My four classes. That I would never mention anything other than just the truth that's in the Scriptures. Nothing about our beliefs. Just about Jesus Christ. Yeah. And they. And they wouldn't come.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] So you kind of got the. You got the sense that you were going to be excommunicated.

Kirk Strong [00:48:10] Oh, yeah. I knew I was.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] Okay. So how did it go from there?

Karen Strong [00:48:15] So after I get done from giving my talk in St. George, which was March 18th of, of 2017 this year.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:48:27] March. March 18th, 2017. I give the talk. I believe he was waiting to, you know, I told you not to do it. I'll let her see if she does it because that gives me another, you know, reason to excommunicate her. They actually called us in. The state president called us in on general conference morning before general conference. Started on, I believe it was the Sunday session. But before, before that, he called us in and basically said, okay, we're going to hold a council on you and the date is going to be April 11th.

Karen Strong [00:49:01] And why is that funny? Well, because when I go home the first thing Tuesday, April 11, I thought they always did them on Thursday. But Kirk, he just said, man, this is the week of. This is leading up to Easter. He thought, isn't that interesting that they've put a council on us where in our mind they're going to cast out innocent people.

Karen Strong [00:49:25] And it's that parallel of the Christ what happens to him? He's innocent, but the leadership condemns him. Right. He said, wow. I don't think they have any idea. They chose this week. Well, I go home and I write it on the calendar. It's Passover.

Karen Strong [00:49:40] That's the day of Passover, which was really symbolic also. I mean, the children of Israel released from bondage on that day. And it was huge for me, that was just a little, just a little sweet sign for you. It was. So it's three hours long. We get there. It starts at eight. We get there. Yeah, eight.

The Disciplinary Council and Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:50:05] Okay. So this is April 11, 2017. You got a letter, right? They always give you a letter too.

Karen Strong [00:50:12] They delivered. So we met before General Conference. And just a few minutes before General conference, I mean, they were real nice about it, said, we're going to give you the letter. And a few minutes before conference started, the executive secretary delivered us the letter.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] What did the letter say? The charges were

Karen Strong [00:50:27] all the things which we just said. Getting re baptized, writing a book, just basically not obeying your priesthood leaders when they asked not to give the lesson. Just all handbook things, doing ordinances without authorization.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] It's all authority. It's all authority. Joseph Smith got rebaptized. Writing a book isn't right.

Kirk Strong [00:50:55] Oh, and the other thing is we had confess to taking the sacrament in our home.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] Oh, that's pretty bad, huh?

Karen Strong [00:51:05] You can only do that when the church tells you to do it. So it's just all, you know, everything's super bureaucratic.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Super bureaucratic and controlling.

Kirk Strong [00:51:15] So. So, okay, so we get there and they, they are going to give us, each of us, 30 minutes.

Karen Strong [00:51:25] We get to be excommunicated together, which is great.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] I mean, normally you have to have your own, right? They did a, they did a package deal.

Kirk Strong [00:51:32] Yeah, package deal.

Karen Strong [00:51:34] Which is what I wanted. I mean, I'm, I, I wanted to stand there with my partner. This is my.

Kirk Strong [00:51:39] So we go in there and, and bless her heart, she wasn't too intimidated because it was about 15, 20 brethren sitting there and dressed in suits and all stern. And we knew most of them good friends with most of them.

Karen Strong [00:51:52] Our, our bishop that he served as a counselor to for seven years.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] So you were on a bishopric.

Kirk Strong [00:51:57] I've been in four bishoprics.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:52:01] So, yeah, I know the standard procedure and everything that we went through. But you know what? When we went over there, we were filled with light and optimism and it never left us. It was. Even though it was a kind of nerve wracking and, and whatever you. We did not have fear and we felt the spirit through the whole thing. And one of the reasons why we were doing this is because we did not want to admit we were guilty about anything. That's why we did not take our name off the records. The number one question, they tried to

John Dehlin [00:52:45] get you to resign several times. For how long and how many times?

Kirk Strong [00:52:49] Several.

Karen Strong [00:52:49] The bishop asked a couple times. The stake president asked several times.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] It's just like, go away.

Karen Strong [00:52:54] Yeah. Because they really don't want, I think they really don't want to have to have that on their hands. And I even, I actually, I prayed and asked, heavenly Father, please do not hold this them accountable for if. As far as I'm concerned, I forgive them. I, I feel I was cast out innocently, but I don't hold any.

Kirk Strong [00:53:18] We didn't have any animosity towards any in that room. And we could not feel it coming to us either.

Karen Strong [00:53:26] The church teaches you to be so beholden to that handbook that they just, they don't, they don't know how to

Kirk Strong [00:53:33] think outside of the handbook. And they did it. And she gave a great explanation or a defense. Mine, mine was based upon the Old Testament triplets, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. And I think it just went over their head because most LDS people don't realize that those three Old Testament prophets had ever made any prophecies about anything to do with us today as LDS people, people inside of the Israel Church. So I just read them pretty much that they knew this was going to happen and they knew what was going on. She took an approach that kind of modeled after Martin Luther. Who's really apostatized here? Is it me or is it the church?

Karen Strong [00:54:33] So my point was, my point was I thought, you know what? They're going to excommunicate me. I had no question. Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] It was a kangaroo court.

Karen Strong [00:54:41] I. And they're not. The state president had this book. But I thought, those men have no idea how much thought and devotion to God is going on here. They're probably thinking we're some, you know, crazy lunatic. I don't, I don't know for sure, but I thought, I am going to use my time to testify apostasy. To be an apostasy is to turn from Christ or from the truth. I have not done that. I don't consider myself an apostate.

Karen Strong [00:55:19] And instead I turn tables on that. Instead, I believe that the church is in a state of apostasy. And so I, I had an 11 page prepared that I read to them on that. It got posted on the Internet later by a friend of mine on her blog, but probably went over a lot of their heads. But I did share with them what I shared with you earlier on section 124 and how I felt that apostasy happened. And I'm sure that some of them were appalled, but, yeah, very still, very kind.

Kirk Strong [00:55:54] Right.

Karen Strong [00:55:54] Very kind.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] And you felt what while you were bearing testimony? Oh, was it your abinadi moment?

Karen Strong [00:56:01] It was, it was. I, you know, I ended with the Martin Luther statement also. You know, if you're asking me to go against the written word of God, I won't do it. Here I stand. I, I will not turn against my God. I'm not going to. I'm not. I'm not going to fear man more than. And one of the, One of the high councilmen afterwards, and I'm shaking his head, he goes, you're a really good speaker. And I took that to mean I almost got you. But, you know, I felt the. I felt the Lord with me and I did not fear.

Kirk Strong [00:56:44] The whole, the whole presentation between the two of us was actually summing up and saying, why are you guys questioning us? Why don't you question President Monson? He's the one that hasn't given us any evidence that he's a prophet. Why? Just because we make an observation, why are you challenging us? I didn't cause this to happen. I didn't write the talks of all the quorum of the 12. I didn't write the talks of the prophet, you know, and I was just dumbfounded that they were just sitting there, you know, going through, through the handbook. And I made the point, and so did she. She said, you know, Christ was not killed and crucified based upon any doctrine that was in Scripture.

Kirk Strong [00:57:31] It was their handbook that offended them with performing miracles on the Sabbath. And they thought that he was a sorcerer. And. But most of them really did know who he was, but they didn't want to lose their position.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] So how did you feel. Bearing testimony,

Kirk Strong [00:57:56] When we drove out of that parking lot, the stake and home, it's really. We were filled with light, absolutely filled. And I thought it was just going to last for one day. It lasted for a couple days.

Karen Strong [00:58:12] We were actually overwhelmed with joy. In fact, when they announced our excommunication, it was strange because the church had meant everything to me, right? And I. I would have thought that I was going to start crying or, you know, all these 15 men looking at you. And I actually had to look down for a minute because when they said it, a wave of joy, strange as that sounds, came over me and I had to look down because I couldn't help from grinning and I didn't want to offend them. You know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be offensive, but there's a. When a couple days later when I was like, what is this feeling?

Karen Strong [00:58:53] Why am I so filled with joy? And then there's those scriptures that talk about, if you're cast out, rejoice for so persecuted they. The prophets that went before or something. I'm misquoting it, but. But it talks about to rejoice. And I thought this was another tender mercy that the Lord sent in emotion that I was not. I wasn't expecting that.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] So lots of good comments from our Facebook live listening audience. So I'm going to read some. Steven writes freedom with four or five exclamation points. Taggart writes, to learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize. That's Voltaire. So, Taggart, thanks for that quote. Nadine, my dear friend Nadine, who's on our board of directors, shout out to Nadine. She writes, sounds like you were mostly guilty of thought crimes.

Karen Strong [00:59:51] Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] I would say it's disobedience to authority, crimes.

Karen Strong [00:59:58] Right in our thoughts because we weren't vocal about it.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] Refusal. Thoughts of refusal to defer to their authority. Yeah, right. Alyssa writes, there's a movie about this called Equilibrium with Christian Bale. I don't know what that is. Mark writes, thought Police. Kent writes, it seems clear that the strongs are following their spiritual promptings. And as the church instructs its members to do. Do you guys feel like you were following God or the Holy Ghost promptings?

Karen Strong [01:00:28] Yes, absolutely. I would never have done this. Everything that we have done has been by approaching the Lord and in a desire to follow him at all costs, whatever he asks, willing to sacrifice anything to obey Him. That's the bottom line.

Kirk Strong [01:00:53] And let me make another observation. The observation is once I started to follow through with the sacrifices that the Lord asked me, that's when I heard him speak to me the most. It seemed like once I was willing to do what he said, even though that it was really hard. Was surprised there, especially for a couple weeks, that voice coming and talking to me and giving me comfort and telling me things to do because I was not a person that had what I thought was a lot of revelation from God. Just bits and pieces. But boy, once you made some sacrifices on his behalf, it seems like he would come and comfort you and tell you things.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] A couple other comments, Stephen writes, they are just following orders. So Stephen is basically saying, systems, not people. The people aren't bad, they're just at a bad system.

Kirk Strong [01:01:52] Agree.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] Taggart writes, the Catholic Church used to spend a lot of time excommunicating people that threatened their claim or challenged their authority. The LDS Church has been doing the same thing. Catholic Church probably learned that. LDS Church is probably a little bit young. Hasn't learned yet. Mark writes, rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Karen Strong [01:02:21] Yeah, that's the one that I looked up and found and answered why I felt that. Yes. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Thanks, Mark. Cecil writes, I think it is so neat that y' all are a couple together in belief. So people are inspired. All right, so you leave your disciplinary council on Cloud nine feeling inspired. And that felt amazing for a while. Any other interactions with the church before we talk about family fallout, the appeal, and community fallout?

Kirk Strong [01:02:59] She. She informs me that she wants to appeal now to the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] Yeah, I appealed. Why did you appeal?

Karen Strong [01:03:06] Okay, the reason I appealed. I appealed on the very last day that you could. And we had a hard time because I did, too. He didn't want. We don't want to be contentious, Right? We don't want to. I don't know. And. And the truth is I didn't want my membership back because I knew I had been doing what God asked me to do. Okay? So I didn't really want my membership back. But here's what came to me. When you're in. What is an appeal? When you're in a court of law, you've been accused of something, if you believe you're innocent of the charge, then you appeal, Right?

Karen Strong [01:03:38] You don't like the verdict, you appeal. And so what I decided was, Kirk, they accused us of apostasy. My whole defense was, we are not apostate. If we don't appeal, in essence, it's like saying, agree with your verdict. And I said, even though I don't, I know nothing will happen from this. I feel like we need to do it. He says, okay, that. That sounds good. So I give it to the stake president. The letter. I explained to him, this is not because I'm angry with you or anything. And I explained to him why. Well, to our surprise, we get a call from. I don't want to say the name of the 70 because I don't like giving names, but I should have brought the letter just to prove that I'm telling the truth.

Kirk Strong [01:04:20] First Quorum of the Seventy.

Karen Strong [01:04:21] A first member of the First Quorum of the Seventy calls you.

Kirk Strong [01:04:24] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:04:25] His secretary.

Kirk Strong [01:04:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:04:26] Calls and says, elder so and so would like to speak with you.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] What?

Karen Strong [01:04:31] Would you be willing to.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] What? I never got that

Karen Strong [01:04:36] anybody else has either. So, I mean, I was. I was stunned.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] But was it someone whose name you recognized?

Karen Strong [01:04:44] You know, it wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:04:46] But other friends of mine did know who it was.

John Dehlin [01:04:49] This is before the verdict of the appeal was received or after.

Karen Strong [01:04:53] So we've already been excommunicated. I've sent in the letter, but you have. It goes to the First Presidency. But then what they do, we found out from him, is they shift it down.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] Not always.

Karen Strong [01:05:04] They shift it down to your kind of somebody that's over your area. Then that area guy shifted it to this Quorum of the Seventy. He's on the Strengthening the Members committee. He was familiar with Denver stuff. When we get in there, he invites us. This is on May 30th. And it was kind of interesting because we got an email that we had to wear Sunday dress to the church. It's not the church office building. It's the church administration building. And because it was there, we had to wear Sunday dress. And I chuckled. But anyway, so we go. And it was supposed to be for an hour, and we met for a little over three.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] What?

Kirk Strong [01:05:41] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:05:41] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [01:05:42] Oh, and he was nice.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Both of you together.

Kirk Strong [01:05:45] Oh, and he was super nice.

Karen Strong [01:05:46] Very kind. Very, very kind. He had my temple fund talk. He had read that he had a little file with my name on it and. Or, you know, and he'd called the

Kirk Strong [01:05:55] stake president, talked to the stake president, make sure it was handled properly.

Karen Strong [01:06:00] He really wanted to.

Kirk Strong [01:06:02] I mean, he wanted to give us a last chance to see if we

Karen Strong [01:06:07] were cast out prematurally. He felt like maybe this was a little premature, maybe. I'm surprised you didn't get maybe on Probation or, you know, he wanted to know, where are you really at? I want to make sure that this hasn't happened unjustly. And obviously we don't. Can't share with you a three hour conversation, but I just wanted to share two, two of the key points he wanted to relate to us, that the church is trying to make the tent as big as they can.

Kirk Strong [01:06:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] They told me that.

Karen Strong [01:06:42] Okay, right. So, but the question was, he said to me, you know, I said what we had some issues about. He said, well, the question is, can a person still be in the church if they agree with, say, 95%? And we all said yes, obviously. And then he shifted down to 90. What about 80? What about 70? Right. Then he gets down to 50. He says, what if a person only agrees with 50%? Can. Is there still room for them in the tent?

John Dehlin [01:07:08] This feels like an accountant, like a lawyer.

Karen Strong [01:07:11] He is smart. He did go to Harvard. But that might give too much of a hint.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Someone asked, Caitlin's asking if it was someone in the presidency of the 70.

Karen Strong [01:07:19] No.

Kirk Strong [01:07:20] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:07:20] No, but it is first corn.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] First corn.

Karen Strong [01:07:22] It is first corn.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:07:25] So anyway, he says, so what about 50? And then he, he answers the question and says, well, it depends upon what that 50 is. So in the course of the three hour conversation, what the bottom line, two questions that he poses to us at the end to see where in the tent are, what's the 50? Or whatever.

Karen Strong [01:07:48] And the reality is we believe in a lot more than that. But he said, here are the two questions he asked us. Do you believe that the leaders of the church, the brethren, are prophetseers and revelators? And we said, no, according to the scripture. What we believe that legitimately is we do not believe they have stood in the presence of God, are testifying to that and delivering an authorized message from him, and says, okay, that's number one. Number two is, do you believe that they have the fullness of the priesthood, which I already set you on section 124. I don't believe they do. I believe after Joseph Smith, that was gone.

Karen Strong [01:08:33] And so we said no. And those two questions, basically, I mean, he didn't say it to us right then, but basically that's the two. That if you don't believe those two, there's not room in the tent.

Kirk Strong [01:08:49] So then I said to him, could you answer me this question, please? And he graciously said, okay. I said, so if you have a celebrity or if you have a government official such as a single Senator, who are LDs, but they are now out campaigning with. Against some social issues that the church teaches are wrong, teachers wrong, and they're trying to change that. That appears to be acceptable. Acceptable because I know that they're. They're not excommunicated. He's. He said that's correct. And I said, well, when somebody publicly teaches against the doctrine of the church, why would you assume that they believe that President Monson is a true prophet? That would mean that they don't really believe that he is a prophet.

Karen Strong [01:09:51] And he said that was a valid point because it was written in my appeal. And he said that's part of why I brought you in. That is a valid point.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] What was valid?

Karen Strong [01:10:01] That we are arbitrary.

John Dehlin [01:10:05] They are arbitrary. No, I'm gonna say this right now. My friend Tyler Glenn, he's gay. Right. He's denied every core tenet of the gospel, doesn't believe any of it. Not only that the brethren aren't prophetseers and revelators. Not only that, they don't have all the authority. He's denounced pretty much every aspect of the gospel and he has not been disciplined at all. Not even a little bit, because not even called in. And there are tons, you know, lots of podcasters out there that have never been punished for anything. A lot of writers. It is completely arbitrary.

Karen Strong [01:10:43] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] And it's just all about, like the church doing this assessment of how much benefit will we get from excommunicating them, how much harm.

Karen Strong [01:10:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] It's not about belief because there's a billion Mormons out there. Not a billion. There are hundreds of thousands of Mormons out there who don't believe anymore, don't believe in God, don't believe in Jesus, or don't believe in the brethren's authority, or don't believe the Book of Mormon's historical. They are even honest with their bishops and stake presidents. Sometimes they're left alone. So it's not about not belief. It's not about same. You know, it's not necessarily, you know, about public stances you take. It's just completely arbitrary.

Karen Strong [01:11:21] And the key on this is because this legitimately, I think sometimes the more accurate what you're saying is, the swifter you're going to get the punishment. There's more fear from us because we aren't doing something fringe, meaning we're not out going doing stuff that's blatantly against the scriptures. Or again, we're very mainstream. So it's very. They fear when we say we don't think your prophet seers and revelators that's

Kirk Strong [01:11:56] the close to home.

Karen Strong [01:11:57] Yes. That's not good. So we got it. We have to discredit you by shaming you because we're just going. Let us just go. We're not even talking to anybody. Let us just be inactive. There's a million of people that are millions of Mormons who are inactive. You don't go excommunicate them.

John Dehlin [01:12:12] Yeah, there are like 12 million inactive Mormons.

Karen Strong [01:12:15] Right. And we had not said anything in church. So the other thing that I was going to tell you about the.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] By the way, the. A listener has written, do not respond. Don't react to this. A listener wrote that. It was Elder Kim Clark. They're speculating.

Karen Strong [01:12:32] It wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] It was not Kim Clark. So try again, Mark Peterson. It was not Kim Clark. Okay, keep going.

Karen Strong [01:12:41] So anyway, the other quote, the other thing that I thought was really, really interesting. I mean, there was a ton of things interesting, but was I said, okay, I want to ask you a hypothetical question. You know that part of what we're in trouble about is we desire to seek the face of the Lord.

Karen Strong [01:13:00] I said, what if, hypothetically, we've now been excommunicated, we're out of the church. As far as you guys are concerned, we're cut off. I said, what if Jesus Christ himself actually appeared to us? And I said, now, I know there's an angel Satan appearing as an angel of light, but for theory, let's say it's not that this is legitimately Jesus Christ appearing to us, and he comes to us and he grants unto us all the promises that can be bestowed upon two individuals, right himself from his own mouth.

Karen Strong [01:13:42] I said, would that be legitimate? Would that be valid in eternity? And he said he didn't want to say the words. No. Right? He couldn't say the words, no. But so what he said was, well, that's not even possible.

Karen Strong [01:14:05] That couldn't even happen because Jesus Christ has given his authority to all of the church leaders and he has a pattern in how he does things, and he only works in patterns. And inside my head, what I was saying was, hmm, this sounds a lot like 2 Nephi 28, where people say, there is no God today because God has given his power unto man, and man does it all. So what the church was basically saying, or this 70 was, God won't be God anymore. He's given all the authority to the church. He will not come and minister to anybody. See, which is totally counter to what we're supposed to be seeking for.

Karen Strong [01:14:50] You've got to get that through us. And then, so what I said to him, I didn't tell him my thoughts about Second Nephi, but what I said was, you know, you are right. The church, the Lord does work through patterns. And there's a pattern that I think is very prevalent that you're missing, and that is that the chosen people of God always fall into a state of apostasy and are never able to see it with their own eyes.

Karen Strong [01:15:17] And he didn't like that. But, but. So we got a letter saying, you know, nice talking to you, you're nice people, I wish you well.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] But so it's interesting because the Book of Mormon, from what I hear from colleagues of yours, is that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, they talk about the church falling into apostasy, members falling into apostasy. But. But modern Mormons don't believe it. They don't pay attention to it. They kind of conveniently ignore that.

Karen Strong [01:15:46] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Is that your understanding?

Kirk Strong [01:15:48] Yeah, mine.

Karen Strong [01:15:49] Mormon 20. I mean, Mormon 8 is one of my. I mentioned that in the first half, but it's one of my actually favorites because it says, why have you polluted the holy Church of God? And you have to stop and think about that and say, well, what other church could he be talking about? What other church could he be talking about? Except for this is Moroni, who says, jesus Christ has shown you to me and I know you're doing. I've seen what you've done. And who reads the book? Who reads the Book of Mormon? It's the Mormons, really. The message is to us and we just kind of overlook it and somebody else, not us.

Kirk Strong [01:16:32] Yeah, it's always the message.

Karen Strong [01:16:35] And like he said, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, they. They prophesy really disturbing things about.

Kirk Strong [01:16:47] Hilarious.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] Go ahead.

Kirk Strong [01:16:49] Isaiah says about the Israel leaders in the last days. His watchmen are blind. They are all ignorant. They are dumb dogs. They cannot bark. Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. And see, what they're saying is the nature of most dogs is to be a warning device. And that's why dogs bark so much. And he says, there are dogs that don't bark. Isaiah says, the crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading fade flower Jeremiah, I did not send these prophets. I did not speak to him. They are prophets of the deceit of their own hearts. Ezekiel says, woe be unto the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves.

Kirk Strong [01:17:41] Should not shepherds feed the flock? Neither have you healed that which was sick. Neither have you healed that which was broken. Neither have you sought that. That which was lost. What was lost. See, that's real interesting. And never points out what was lost that they have never been able to reclaim.

Karen Strong [01:18:01] But this is the thing. See, if you haven't really stood in the presence of God and are delivering an authorized, authentic message from him, yet you're trying to convey to the people, somehow because of your title that you inherited, that somehow you are able to speak for God. That is what's called using the Lord's name in vain when you portray to the people that you're speaking for God. And that's one of the things that I came to realize was going on with the church, was that the leaders were having us believe that they were giving an authentic message, give nice messages. I'm not saying anything. You know, they give nice messages, but they would have you believe that they're speaking in the name of the Lord, in the way that scriptures convey, and they actually, to my belief, are not.

Kirk Strong [01:18:56] So here's my. My final statement on the church. Okay. Is that all right?

John Dehlin [01:19:00] Yeah, please.

Kirk Strong [01:19:01] Okay. I am grateful to the church. I am thankful for the culture that they created, for being a custodian of the Aaronic priesthood in the Book of Mormon. I'm thankful for all the good brethren and sisters that did so much to bless and help me. I did not leave the church. You kicked me out. But I am going to the next step. I see myself. I see the church as a wonderful stepping stone. I do not see it as the end. I see it as something that blessed me, that nurtured me, that gave me the help that I needed. But then the Lord had to nudge me out of it and say, okay, now you need to go on. And that's where the church I feel bad about because I wish more people would see that there is more.

Karen Strong [01:20:03] And the thing is, I want to also express my gratitude and appreciation for everything that I received through the church. Also, because I'm on a journey right now that I know will lead to the fruit that I seek, which is to literally know Him. And I know that of a surety. And I would not be where I am today with the knowledge that I have were it not for the foundation and understanding and the necessary role that the church played for all these years to hold this spot until the Lord was ready to do what he's doing now. And he is doing something now. He is doing something now.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] All right, you guys are. You guys are bearing testimony to me and to our audience. You're bearing witness. I'm not used to that it's. It's beautiful. So thank you. All right, so any other fallout with the church? Or is that it? Okay.

Family Relationships and Life After Excommunication

Kirk Strong [01:21:23] Our neighbors and the leaders have been so kind to us.

Karen Strong [01:21:27] Very kind.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] Okay, so the word follow.

Kirk Strong [01:21:29] No, it's been great.

Karen Strong [01:21:30] Everybody's been nice. Obviously they keep their kids know that behind our back there. You know, that's just human.

Kirk Strong [01:21:36] That's just natural.

Karen Strong [01:21:37] I do the same thing and I don't hold anything against anybody because if I was probably in their shoes, looking at us, I be very tempted to be. It would be a really interesting conversation. Right. And so I don't. But as far as how they've treated our children, they have been so good. They invite them to things, but usually we decline. But my kids can still go occasionally if they feel like it. But everybody is very, very kind. And yeah, they've been very Christ, like, very Christ, like, that's good.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] Okay. Don't respond. Scott's. Scott's not done. Let's see. No, Mark is not done. He says it's Elder Kevin Pearson, but don't respond. That's who he's. He's guessing that it was that you met with. So he's looking up all the members of the first group of 70. Don't respond. You did give a good hint. She gave a good hint.

Kirk Strong [01:22:35] But we're not going to acknowledge.

John Dehlin [01:22:37] I don't want you to. I don't want you to.

Kirk Strong [01:22:39] And he was so kind. He went. We had a one hour appointment. We were the last ones to leave the building.

Karen Strong [01:22:47] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [01:22:48] He had to walk us down the elevator, get us out the locked doors and everything. He gave us much more time than we deserved.

Karen Strong [01:22:55] Yeah. So we don't have anything bad to say about any ecclesiastical leader.

Kirk Strong [01:23:00] Yeah, nothing.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] Okay. So what was the fallout with children, with siblings, in laws, parents? What's the family cost of you guys acting according to your conscience and to your understanding of the Spirit? Has it been hard? Not hard.

Kirk Strong [01:23:22] It's been hard because you get that stamp on your forehead to watch out for these guys. And so some of our family of members are very, very nice to us, but they will not engage in any religious dialogue whatsoever. They will engage in anything, any activity, but they will not dialogue. I'm surprised. We have some that have never asked for our side of the story.

Karen Strong [01:23:50] Some have not even acknowledged that they know that it's happened on my side, on his side, on my side. It's been a little different because I had the book and I had the other brother that was already ex. Excommunicated. I came home immediately after the excommunication, notified them all, and all of my siblings responded, you know that they love me. They know that I've been on this path for a while, that I knew it was coming. Some of them said, I can't say that they're not sad, but, you know, just varying degrees. Others said, you know, I think you have a lot of courage and I'm not willing to go down that road, but I think that God is directing you.

Karen Strong [01:24:32] My parents have actually been very. Because of my book. My mom's read it probably four or five times. She has expressed to me that she knows that we are doing what God wants us to do. Doesn't mean she's willing to do it, but. Because that's a whole different level of understanding. But the pain that they were having I think is subsided because they do have the confidence that they do. They do know that we care about God above all else and that he is guiding us. They have witnessed that and acknowledged it.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] Anything you want to say about your children and if this has affected your relationship with them?

Kirk Strong [01:25:35] You know, our children have been very, very supportive. We've been real close to our children. Most of them over the years we, we've given the older ones, all of them a choice that we're not going to force them. The younger ones of course, are obviously

Karen Strong [01:25:57] more influenced by, you know, influence.

Kirk Strong [01:25:59] But we, we have some high school age and if they want to go over to young women's, if they want to go over to church activity, if they want to attend seminary, great. It's up to them.

Karen Strong [01:26:12] We have one that attends seminary, but she doesn't go to church. She. But basically all of our children accept what we believe. Except for one that's married. But another married one and her husband both do believe what as we believe. So that son in law that baptized me.

John Dehlin [01:26:33] Okay.

Kirk Strong [01:26:34] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:26:35] So.

Kirk Strong [01:26:37] So.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] So most of your kids are with you?

Karen Strong [01:26:39] Yes, just, just the one is not. But they're very. We have a good relationship, we just don't talk about it.

Kirk Strong [01:26:45] All of my relationships have friends that I worked with at byu, ward people, everybody. It's created a distance, but it hasn't created animosity. At least they haven't vocalized that. That make sure sense. So we're more distant, we don't talk as frequently. And I haven't had anybody yet in a close relationship though that has come to me and said I want to, I want to know more. Except for one. There was one that came early on and spent some time with Us, but he quickly exited.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] But yeah, they never want to know.

Kirk Strong [01:27:33] They never want to know.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] No, people don't want to know.

Karen Strong [01:27:35] No, they don't want to know. Yeah, they don't want to know.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] Too much is at stake.

Karen Strong [01:27:38] Yeah, it is, because they've seen what happened to you. And that, that's why the excommunication is so effective. That's why the church does it.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] Why do they do it?

Karen Strong [01:27:46] Because it really does. It puts the letter A on you. You know, Everybody distanced themselves from you. It's so ingrained in you not to think any of the thoughts we have thought that in fact, my parents originally were under the belief that, oh no, our son is excommunicated. He can't have the Holy Ghost. He cannot receive inspiration from God. And she's come around to understand. No, you guys still are operating with the spirit. You still do have the Holy Ghost.

Kirk Strong [01:28:27] We had one high councilman in the court that said, you know something in the how are you going to function without the Holy Ghost? Talk louder for the Holy Ghost. And so I challenged him and said I didn't know that the church had a monopoly on the Holy Ghost. And he couldn't rebuttal that he didn't know what to say. Because a lot of church members really think that once you're excommunicated, you have no right to connect to heaven. You have no right to connect to heaven in any form or in any way.

John Dehlin [01:29:04] And you guys are saying for you it's been the opposite. Your connections to God and Christ have been what?

Karen Strong [01:29:12] I've always had a connection. I've always had an ability to hear his voice when it really came down to it, you know, struggle like everybody to figure out, you have to learn. But when it came down to it, he has always pulled through for me, but everything is magnified. And the pure intelligence that I have received has been, which I believe is the true communication of the spirit to a person is the pure intelligence which they receive that has increased a hundredfold. I would not trade what I have, what I know, what I'm experiencing, and, and go, go back to where I was for anything.

Kirk Strong [01:30:01] The biggest challenge that people will have, at least for us, I'll say it that way, is that we left an environment where we were so dependent upon an institution. Our kids are enrolled in seminary, they go to the three hour block, they go to young women's, they go to girls camp, they do activities.

Kirk Strong [01:30:28] The parents don't really have to do that much. The church is really, we're independent now and everything is up to us. And I have been surprised on two things. Number one, how difficult the transition is from being dependent upon an institution now to being your own.

Kirk Strong [01:30:57] And number two, I have noticed completely different relationship with the heavens now that we're on our own because you can't be dependent on anybody else now. It's your family connecting to heaven. And that is a whole different ballgame. A whole different ballgame. And one that we've received a lot of light from. And we wouldn't trade that. We wouldn't trade that.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] So the family's more spiritual?

Karen Strong [01:31:30] Yeah. I mean,

Kirk Strong [01:31:35] the other one was very religious. This one is more spiritual.

Karen Strong [01:31:40] Does that make sense? The other one was more, we were Pharisee. The rules.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] The little LDS church activity was religious.

Karen Strong [01:31:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] But not very spiritual.

Karen Strong [01:31:51] Now it's really just emphasized on, you know, there is nothing more important than this journey to know God and to seek to be worthy to participate in what God's doing now, preparing for Zion.

Kirk Strong [01:32:09] Let's say one of my daughters or whoever makes a mistake, okay. And they come and they say, dad, I guess I don't go to the bishop, do I? I said, no, who do I go to? Who do I go to? And I said, well, you go to Heavenly Father and if you want to talk to your parents, your parents, we're here to help you. But you need to go to God and you need to tell him you're sorry.

Karen Strong [01:32:36] You work it out with him and there's no, there's no six month waiting period when you've confessed, if you're serious about it, you're forgiven. You know, he doesn't hold it over your head.

Kirk Strong [01:32:48] It's a, it's a whole different experience, you know, but you, you need to get more involved with your kids because there's no one that's going to teach you the scriptures now. There's no one that's going to make an attempt to say, okay, follow the prophet. Follow the prophet. You know, we've changed that motto to follow Christ. Follow Christ, Follow Christ. You know, that's the way Joseph Smith taught it. Follow Christ, don't follow me, follow Christ.

John Dehlin [01:33:15] You know, so, so I'm going to read. We've got some good comments from the listeners. Let's see, Sharon writes, family shun you. So she's basically saying that maybe other people from, you know, from the remnant have been shunned when they have been excommunicated or when it's back.

Kirk Strong [01:33:38] I can believe that, yes.

Karen Strong [01:33:39] I've heard sad stories for other people We've just. We've lived in the same ward since the day we got married, so almost 27 years. So the roots are so deep. I just don't think people. They're just not gonna treat us that way.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] We were in our ward for 12, and we definitely got shunned by almost all the ward members. Oh, yeah, for sure. But, wow, maybe my apostasy was different than yours. Let's see. Margaret Barrett Bruff. I wonder if she's related to Tyler Bruff, who was one of the members of my ward that. That fought hard to get us excommunicated. She writes, it's all about fear. Let's see.

Kirk Strong [01:34:26] I agree with that.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] Yeah. Rodney writes, they were not excommunicated for their beliefs. They were excommunicated for preaching false doctrines. What do you guys think about that? Rodney says you were preaching false doctrine.

Karen Strong [01:34:38] Well, that is what a. That is what our stake president would say, because he doesn't.

John Dehlin [01:34:45] Did he tell you what the doctrine was that was false?

Karen Strong [01:34:47] Well, that. That he believes they are. That's. That's the doctrine. The doctrine is he believes they are prophets, seers, and revelators and that the church is. Is basically, they're infallible and it will never go astray.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] Can I just say, if we're going to do it on percentages, shouldn't a belief in God and a belief in Jesus and a belief in the atonement count for 95% of what qualifies you to be a member of this church? And if you happen to believe the brethren have gone astray, shouldn't that be part of that 5%? That's tolerable. I mean, isn't it really about Christ?

Karen Strong [01:35:24] And if you think about it, not

John Dehlin [01:35:25] the authority, at the end of the

Karen Strong [01:35:26] day, if you think about it really according to what the church says, setup is what we really didn't qualify for anymore was a temple recommend, and we willingly gave that up. There really wasn't anything that we were doing that, in my belief, justifies excommunication, especially when we were being quiet, not saying anything. And in contrast to, like you said, there are a lot of public figures who do things that are a lot more teaching false doctrine than what we are doing. And. And they have a lot of media attention.

Kirk Strong [01:36:04] So let's move to the good news.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] Okay, let me just read a couple

Kirk Strong [01:36:07] more comments about Denver.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] Okay.

Kirk Strong [01:36:10] What about, instead of stop talking about the church, let's talk about the neat things that are happening now, the great

John Dehlin [01:36:18] things in this podcast. Or is that what you mean?

Karen Strong [01:36:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:22] Oh, for sure. Let me just finish a couple comments. Let's see. Elizabeth Olson writes, stumbled across this today. Love this family when we lived in their neighborhood many years ago. Wish them well and all my love. I don't know if you remember Elizabeth, but she's saying hi. Let's see. Any other comments? John writes, I'm impressed with their perspective and positivity after leaving the church. Bravo. Mark says, salt of the earth. Anne says, christ consciousness. When you connect to your own heart, your inner and higher being, rather than anything outside of yourself, another belief system, you'll experience the next level. Keep walking. And then Sharon writes, the reason they tell members to cut ties is so you don't leave the church like them. So they're worried that you'll become basically like a virus.

Karen Strong [01:37:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] That infects other people.

Karen Strong [01:37:24] Right?

Kirk Strong [01:37:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] Okay. So that ends the portion about talking about your excommunication and the fallout from it. We're going to spend the last hour of this presentation talking about the movement and as you say, the good news.

Kirk Strong [01:37:41] Good news?

John Dehlin [01:37:41] Is that what it is?

Kirk Strong [01:37:42] Yeah.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 838

Karen Strong [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] All right, so I'm gonna ask you, like, 80 questions in 60 minutes. So your job is to be as concise as possible. Can you do it?

Karen Strong [00:00:38] We'll try.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Do your best.

Karen Strong [00:00:39] She'll have the hardest time. You could probably determine that.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Well, the goal is to cover as much material as possible.

Karen Strong [00:00:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] In a fixed amount of time.

Karen Strong [00:00:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] All right, so here we go. Are you guys ready? Start from the top.

Kirk Strong [00:00:54] So if I go like that, that means he's talking too long or vice versa.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] Are you going to tell her? Yeah. Okay. All right. Belief in God. What is the belief in God of remnant of you guys?

Beliefs on Scripture, God, and Theology in the Movement

Karen Strong [00:01:10] Very traditional.

Kirk Strong [00:01:13] Traditional trinitarian lectures on faith would be the best way to look at it. We believe in God the Father. Yes. We do believe there's a heavenly mother. And we believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Is God a resurrected corporeal being?

Karen Strong [00:01:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Anthropomorphic meaning. Like a man. A resurrected man.

Kirk Strong [00:01:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Is God a resurrected man?

Kirk Strong [00:01:39] But he has a body of burnings. So there is a slight difference between the bodies, but.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] Body of burnings.

Kirk Strong [00:01:45] Yeah. He has so much glory.

Karen Strong [00:01:47] Well, so much that would take a while to explain. Explained. So we can't do that.

Kirk Strong [00:01:51] But. But yes, he's exalted man. Yes, he's an exalted man.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Okay. And Jesus is his literal son, meaning somehow God and Mary made a child. And that's Jesus.

Kirk Strong [00:02:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] And Jesus is resurrected for you.

Karen Strong [00:02:10] Yes. Is that right? That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] And Jesus is. Okay, but Adam is not God. Or is God Adam?

Karen Strong [00:02:17] No.

Kirk Strong [00:02:18] No.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] So you reject Adam God?

Kirk Strong [00:02:20] Doctor, Adam is a son of God.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] But then what about Adam God theory?

Kirk Strong [00:02:23] I do reject Adam God theory. That's coming from Brigham Young. My belief is Brigham Young distorted a truth that Joseph Smith was trying to convey. He didn't understand it, and twists it into this other thing. Michael, the temple teaches you as Adam. He's obviously progressed to a point of some sort of godhood in that he's in performing. Helping to perform the creation. So there's some confusion. But he's a son of God. We may be doing that the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] All right. Okay. So Jesus did. Jesus was resurrected, I'm assuming. And did he suffer in Gethsemane for all our sins? Sort of like all these sins are on the scale Jesus had to suffer to make it all okay.

Kirk Strong [00:03:15] Yes, but the. Okay. The best description to understand is in the book Come Let Us adore him. It is also Denver just gave a Talk in Atlanta, Georgia, on a website called 500. I got to give this to you, because this is, this is important. Christian Reformation 500, the number 500 years.info so Christian Reformation 500 years.info on that he just gave a talk to the Christians and in that, he shares the portion of seeing what happened in Gethsemane in that talk. And that would be what I would say to you, if you want to understand what we think that, that, yeah, he explains it. But yes, we do believe he suffered for our sins.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Bible is the Bible still, like with traditional Mormons, translated in imperfect ways. Bible is not perfect, has flaws. True.

Karen Strong [00:04:19] Bible is not perfect, has flaws. But we accept it as canonized doctrine. But we favor the Joseph Smith inspired translation.

Kirk Strong [00:04:31] Yeah, because we're, I'm assuming you'll get to a point where we'll talk about Joseph Smith. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Okay. As far as, let's see, the Book of Mormon. Is the Book of Mormon the most correct book on the face of the earth, like Joseph said?

Karen Strong [00:04:51] Yes. Yeah, I believe that.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:04:54] Yeah, I do. Now we're having that a man will get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book. So what it teaches, what it teaches and how to come to God, that is the most correct book. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:05:13] And for you, the most important part of the Book of Mormon is what it talks about seeing Christ, about striving to see Christ and to know Christ. True.

Karen Strong [00:05:20] I think the whole, I think that's what the book is bearing testimony of all the way from Lehi down to the end of Moroni. They're all bearing testimony to come unto him.

Kirk Strong [00:05:31] And I've heard you ask other people, do they believe in the historicity. I don't know if I'm saying that. Right. Of the Book of Mormon. Yes, we believe it's actually, there's actually a Lehi, there's actually a Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] So how do you deal with like the horses and the steel and, you know, the DNA problems and all the problems. Problems.

Kirk Strong [00:05:50] This is the way I look at science. I, I've dabbled into that years ago. Right. So you're talking so long ago that I wouldn't even have answers to give to you of what I came up with. But bottom line on science, science changes all the time. They, they, they think they have an answer and then in 15 years you find out, oh, we were actually wrong on that. We find out something else. I would never stake my salvation on those kind of temporal things that to

Karen Strong [00:06:26] me, they don't face me, can be

Kirk Strong [00:06:28] proven later to be inaccurate. But, but I'm not up on it enough to sit there and give you, you know. Well, here's what I looked up and found the answer to. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:06:37] Yeah, I mean, I.

Karen Strong [00:06:38] It's kind of like butter. How long have they been telling us that butter's bad for us now they've just reversed it and said, okay, butter is actually good for the heart. We've just reversed that, you know, So

Kirk Strong [00:06:49] I go to the doctor, give my daughter a polio vaccination. No, this is totally safe. Five years later, oh, we don't give those anymore because we found out that the only cases. You know what I'm saying? It's.

Karen Strong [00:07:01] I listen, but okay. With a, with one eye closed when I open.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] So, okay, what about the Book of Abraham? Because Egyptologists have translated the fragments that remain. The word Abraham doesn't even appear there.

Kirk Strong [00:07:18] There is a whole explanation to the Book of Abraham. Again, about five years ago, I looked into that extensively. I became satisfied. I looked into the answers that Hugh Nibley gave. I also took a class from another ancient religion professor that gave me satisfactory answers. And I believe there's also physical answers for that.

Kirk Strong [00:07:43] So, no, we believe in the Book of Abraham. And I actually, even if, even if Joseph Smith received it as a revelation, looking at the transcripts, I don't, I don't think that, but that's even a possibility. But for me, the power of the book, of the proof and evidence of the Book of Abraham, the words in the Book of Abraham, when I read that, that book is filled with so much light and truth and knowledge. That is a very invaluable book to me. To model yourself after Abraham. He is the one to say, I want to do what Abraham did. He sought God earnestly in a state of apostasy all around him, and he found God.

Karen Strong [00:08:29] That that book helps clarify some questions about adoption with the fathers, the ancient fathers, etc. I, I think it's very credible.

Kirk Strong [00:08:40] Too, Too much depth in there to be. It's, it's not made up. However, Joseph got it.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] So you're just not concerned about history or science.

Kirk Strong [00:08:50] Yeah, I've read it.

Karen Strong [00:08:52] I'm not about things like that, about horse and stuff still and all that type of stuff. I mean, they're discovering things all the time about wars and how they made things.

Kirk Strong [00:09:03] And there's just, there's just always an answer that's around the corner. And like I say on all of those, at the point where I looked into it, I was satisfied with the answer.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] You're basically saying your Spiritual feelings are what you care most about. Yeah, right.

Karen Strong [00:09:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] And you're not going to let any alleged evidence get in the way of your spiritual right convention.

Karen Strong [00:09:32] I haven't heard anything that has shaken that yet.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Yeah, but you're not open to it either.

Kirk Strong [00:09:37] Yeah, I've looked into it. I honestly did. At the one point I, I looked into the Book of Abraham stuff so that I could answer other people.

Karen Strong [00:09:43] For instance, the church has reported for a long time that, you know, that they believe that the Book of Mormon history actually was mostly in Central America. And then, and then that group came out, said, no, we believe it's up in North America and here's the artifacts and stuff like that. And I listened to it with open, and I think they're probably right. I think most of it was up in North America, but, you know, it doesn't really matter to me that much, but I do think it was in North America.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:10:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Back to this teaching about, about the purpose of life to be. To know Christ just really briefly. And I don't even know if you've thought a lot about this, but the way I've thought about it is it sometimes hasn't made sense to me that we all lived with God before we lived with God and Jesus before.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Then he sends us to this earth and kind of, you know, blinds us, gives us this veil of forgetfulness. And then the whole purpose is to come to know him when he's knowingly constructed this veil of forgetfulness. And there's so many people in the world that never get a chance to really believe in Jesus because they're raised Muslim or raised Jewish or whatever. So much of our belief is tied to how we're raised.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] And then just like really this is just biblical, but the idea that God's going to keep you out of heaven because you didn't end your life with the right beliefs and specifically believe in something that he did everything he could to hide from you, any evidence of.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] And that really the pinnacle, the pinnacle purpose of this life is to see God or see Jesus face to face. I'm like, why isn't it, why isn't the pinnacle, why isn't the pinnacle of judgment, like, how many hungry mouths did you feed? How many widows did you clothe? How, how much suffering did you alleviate? And whether or not you actually believed that there was a God or believed that Jesus literally existed or not, or really psalm versus just believed in him or felt like you might believe in him. Why is it belief in these teachings and then this Physical witness that's just so important to God versus, like, living a Christlike life.

Karen Strong [00:12:18] Okay. The lectures on faith ask basically three questions. Joseph Smith said, you've got to ask yourself, do you really believe that there is a God? And if you do believe a God, then asked question two, do you know God's attributes, His characteristics and attributes? And then number three, do you have a conviction that you're on course to becoming like God? When you say see God, to me, that doesn't just mean to see him, it means to become like Him. The whole progression of not just this experience I'm having now, but throughout eternity is to improve myself, to gain further light and knowledge. I believe this is just one stage of eternal progression. And when we talk about seeing Christ, we're not talking about all we want to do. We're talking about if you're going to see Christ, that means pretty much you've

Kirk Strong [00:13:19] got to take upon you his attributes.

Karen Strong [00:13:22] Take upon. Yeah, his attributes become like Him. So it's becoming like Him. Him and becoming like Him.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] But you can do that without even believing in Him.

Kirk Strong [00:13:30] Yeah, but you hit a key point.

Karen Strong [00:13:31] Well, not really, no.

Kirk Strong [00:13:33] Because in the end there's. There's more going on. But don't you think there are people

John Dehlin [00:13:38] in the world that are more Christ like than remnant people?

Kirk Strong [00:13:40] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Who don't even believe in Christ?

Kirk Strong [00:13:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Okay, so.

Kirk Strong [00:13:44] But I believe all good comes from the light of Christ. I really believe that.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] I believe then we're not doing anything. Then we're just. Then Christ is doing stuff through his light.

Kirk Strong [00:13:55] Because you're either responding, you have the agency to respond to that light. He inspires it, but he will never compel you to follow that. You have to make the choice to follow that. And it's difficult to tread the path that Christ tread. Number one, we would live the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon at Bountiful, which takes your discipleship on an entirely different level. That's where instead of just fornicating or committing adultery being wrong, it goes to the heart and thoughts, Right. Instead of just murdering being wrong, it goes to, don't even be angry with your brother.

Kirk Strong [00:14:39] Everything gets right. I mean, and you are treating your fellow man, you are doing good to those who do evil unto you. So, and you hit on something else. One of Christ's final parables was the parable of the sheep and the goats, where basically what he says is, did you feed? He goes to these people that claim to be his followers, right? And he says, did you feed me when you saw Me hungry. Did you clothe me when you saw me naked? And they go, oh, why Lord? We would have done that if we had known. But we never saw you like that. The whole point of that is your fellow man is how you treat them is what God is looking to see if you are really like his son or not.

Kirk Strong [00:15:31] So you're right. There is a lot it is about becoming. Becoming as he is is what you're seeking to do. But it doesn't just happen in wow, I was down here for 80 years. Everything hinges on this is rounds of eternity. The scriptures talk about eternity upon eternity and there's lots we have to learn.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] Do you still believe in three degrees of glory? Terrestrial, terrestrial and celestial.

Karen Strong [00:16:02] We believe that.

Kirk Strong [00:16:03] Well, you're sitting in the telestial.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] This is life is the telestial, or

Kirk Strong [00:16:09] this world is celestial, but it'll be

John Dehlin [00:16:12] transformed according to tradition and then it

Kirk Strong [00:16:14] will go to terrestrial.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] What it?

Kirk Strong [00:16:17] Well, it. When you move into Zion, the millennium, that's a terrestrial state.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Oh, that's different than what I.

Kirk Strong [00:16:25] That's like the Garden of Eden already.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Well, ready to that the telestial that the earth will become the telescope kingdom, but it'll be transformed into the.

Karen Strong [00:16:33] If you don't know, if you haven't figured this out, you live in hell right now. This is the kingdom of the adversary. This is the kingdom of the adversary. He has come down and taken over this world.

Kirk Strong [00:16:47] The temple used to say, well, now go with Adam and Eve into the telestial kingdom or the world in which you now live. Yeah, there's a lot more going on. And this is why I say you need to listen to that seventh talk by Denver given an Ephraim where he picks up on the King Fallet discourse. Joseph Smith was trying to give a hint of what's really going on.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Okay, is there progression between kingdoms in the afterlife? Can someone go from the terrestrial to the celestial?

Kirk Strong [00:17:19] You're asking a question that would take. You said a short answer in order to lay any groundwork on that.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Well, ultimately it's either yes or no.

Kirk Strong [00:17:29] Eternal progression would mean that there's a cycle of creation called an eternity. And based upon the conduct that occurs there, you have a space in between there where you're not experiencing something like this. And then you will continue on in some experiences that help you to progress further.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] The answer is yes.

Kirk Strong [00:17:59] See, but not in the same.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] It's either yes or no.

Kirk Strong [00:18:01] It's not, but it's not. The LDS description of the plan of salvation is very simplistic and it throws people off of what's really going on.

Joseph Smith, Polygamy, and Restoration Questions

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Okay. All right. As far as Joseph Smith goes, I think the, the biggest problem people have with him is the polygamy. I already know that Denver and others basically don't believe that Joseph Smith ever practiced it. Is that true?

Kirk Strong [00:18:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Is that what you guys believe?

Karen Strong [00:18:29] Well, yes. And I believe that there's not enough evidence to convict him either way. And I never assumed that until Denver educated us. And I, I looked into it and I, I can never find any statement from Joseph Smith where.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Well, someone said he was lying. He was hiding it and lying well,

Karen Strong [00:18:54] well but you know all the DNA and, and all the false accusations that were inconsistent and, and the, in the fact that he always said he only had one wife and yes, we believe, we believe what you just said and Emma denied it.

Kirk Strong [00:19:10] And there's, there's a fantastic paper just to save time because I could go over some of the facts from it but a fantastic paper. I don't know who wrote it. It, it anonymous as far as I know.

Karen Strong [00:19:23] And have you read Joseph Smith's Monogam Monogamy by Denver?

John Dehlin [00:19:29] I'm just aware, I'm aware of the arguments case.

Karen Strong [00:19:32] You ought to read that paper. That research that he did.

Kirk Strong [00:19:35] There's another one and I believe that on that website that I told you about earlier called zions return.org I believe that that is this is going to be linked on there somewhere. If it's not, I'll tell him. You need to put this up. It's called Joseph Smith's Monogamy. Monogamy. I can't say that. Sorry. Exploring a counter narrative regarding plural marriage. I don't know who wrote this. It's anonymous as far as I know there's no name attached to it. But it was written after Denver first came out with some things that really surprised me saying hey listen, you better rethink this polygamy thing. It's not what you think.

Kirk Strong [00:20:15] Somebody else wrote this paper. It's about 50 pages long. Fantastic. They really try to approach it fair mindedly and show you here's the facts, here's the different ways that this could be looked at. Here's what the trouble is. And there has been a lot of altering of documents that have been done by the church after the death of Joseph. The contemporary documents do not give sufficient evidence to say that Joseph was practicing polygamy. Now he was doing something but I believe that was something else that related to what we call the law of adoption. Dynastic ceilings has to do with Organizing the family of God.

Karen Strong [00:20:59] I believe a lot of that was misunderstood and construed into something different. And then you had the Cochraneites that were influencing the church that were practicing polygamy. It came down and so it gets muddled.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] And so even though, oh, what about Fanny Alger? When.

Kirk Strong [00:21:16] Okay, here's a great one on Fanny Alger. Okay, so. So yes, there's. There is something going on. But see, what I believe law of adoption would require a priesthood ceremony to do that. That's what I believe.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] You're saying there's no sex.

Kirk Strong [00:21:31] Right? So what I'm saying is, so when

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Oliver caught him with Fanny, it's all

Kirk Strong [00:21:35] it is is a ceremony. It's taken place. That's an ordinance.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] But clothes are on, no touching of body parts.

Kirk Strong [00:21:41] Here's something really interesting. Joseph and Emma have nine children, right? So base. We know for sure Joseph could produce children. Nine children. Fanny Alger later marries somebody else. Fanny Alger has nine children. She can reproduce. So both Joseph can reproduce and so can Fanny. Algeria, if there were some relations going on, it's very interesting that, you know,

Karen Strong [00:22:09] no offspring of any.

Kirk Strong [00:22:11] There's no DNA evidence of anything. In fact, they had proven. And I should have refreshed my mind on this, but they had proven all the supposed suspected descendants that could have possibly been Joseph's to be false. Except for there was this one line they were unable to do. And then in 2000, and I think it was related to a female line and they couldn't. The DNA test wasn't there. And then it finally came out in 2016, it was done and it proved this. Suspected that it was like the smoking gun, this person for sure. You know, the testimony on this is so strong that we know this has to be a descendant of Joseph.

Kirk Strong [00:22:48] This, this will prove it. And it turned out false. So there's just nothing. And a genetic professor at BYU just a couple months ago, I have a friend who's a student at byu and he brought this very fact up, talking about DNA and just said, this is so improbable if Joseph was doing this, that there is nobody genetically, no DNA evidence of any children.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] And I'll just say for me, one of the most compelling sort of testimonies for polygamy is the fact that the RLDS church spent over 100 years denying that polygamy happened. The, you know, when it, when it sort of went up against the LDS Church, the LDS Church felt defensive because the RLDS Church was claiming polygamy never happened. So the LDS Church, you know, has all these depositions with all these former wives of Joseph. And a lot of these women did. Did bear testimony allegedly that. That they were wives of Joseph in very deed. But the most compelling part is that the RLDS church staked over 100 years of its reputation on Joseph not practicing polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] And ultimately for them, who they had every reason to reject polygamy in the 60s and 70s, had to even buckle under the overwhelming amount of evidence that they read that he probably did. I don't expect you guys to have a response to that.

Kirk Strong [00:24:30] I'll just say this for me, because my grandmother that married Brigham Young would have been one of those that, you know, probably had a deposition taken on her. I'm not sure. But here's what I, what I really think is happening. The contemporary evidence is really all you can rely on. What's written at the time. Joseph always denied it. So did Emma. Everything that is trying to confirm it happens after Joseph is dead. He is not able to speak for himself. The only words that he ever gave for himself were denying it. Right now the church can say, well, Joseph was lying. Well, that really. Do you believe your prophet is a liar? But here's the thing. When they're taking these depositions, 30 to 50 years later, after you've been living under Brigham Young, who has convinced you that what you're doing is required for exaltation, Right. Can you imagine the mental game now?

John Dehlin [00:25:30] You're saying they're under press, under duress,

Kirk Strong [00:25:32] you're under confirmation bias, where you have to make your actions. You look back in life to. To confirm what your belief system is now. And that is how I explain. And this paper that I recommended to read, he goes into a lot of this kind of.

Karen Strong [00:25:51] I would say if, if we're a jury, I don't think there's enough evidence to proclaim him guilty or innocent. It actually is. Is really quite unknown. But I favor Joseph's testimony, especially just months before he died, especially understanding that

Kirk Strong [00:26:15] there is the thing called the law of adoption, which would explain very logically

John Dehlin [00:26:20] what was going on, who wrote what became doctrine and Covenants 132.

Kirk Strong [00:26:24] Then I believe that the first portion of that, Joseph did receive a revelation on eternal marriage. But it is shown that that document didn't even go public until the 1850s, after they've been living it for quite some time. And there is evidence of doctoring things. There's a. There's a, in fact a statement by Joseph Smith in his journal that his scribe writes where he's Talking about.

Kirk Strong [00:26:52] In fact, I'll just read what he says. He says this is out of his journal. Gave instruction to try those who were preaching, teaching or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives. So Joseph's telling his scribe to write this in his journal. On this law. Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife. And remember, they have D&C 101 at the time. That also says, because there's been accusations of this one, we are not involved in this. One wife, one husband. Now, the thing that's interesting is in the 1850s, when the church historians are trying to finish off the church history, because when Joseph dies, it's only up to like 1838 or something like that.

Kirk Strong [00:27:38] They're in the 1850s. They've got Joseph's journals. Some scribes are transferring what's in Joseph's journals. And you can see this in the. In the document that I referred to, it is left. They've left space after Joseph says that he forbids it.

Kirk Strong [00:27:56] They cross that out on the side. They say to be revised. In the margin of the paper. They go to be revised and then they leave space after where they cross out that Joseph said to forbid it. And they fill in. In the handwriting of the person that wrote to be revised. They fill in language from 132, which is doctoring the contemporary documents after the death of Joseph Smith in 1853 or 54.

Kirk Strong [00:28:25] So they're really. Even one of the church historians from quite some time ago said that there was altering of documents that went on. So 132 is unreliable to me.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] What about William Law, who was a counselor in the First Presidency, coming out with the Nauvoo Expositor, basically bearing testimony that Joseph was. Was practicing polygamy.

Kirk Strong [00:28:48] William Law is disenfranchised from the Church. I don't have a problem. If I'm going to take William Law over Joseph Smith, I'm going to go with Joseph Smith. I don't have a good answer for you right now on that one, because I haven't spoken into William Law.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] But what about William Clayton's journals? He was Joseph's scribe. Apparently he writes about polygamy there.

Kirk Strong [00:29:16] Again, same, same.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] So it's kind of like science. You're basically.

Karen Strong [00:29:20] No, no, no. I said if you, if you're. If you're in a court of law, you would never have enough evidence to convict Joseph one way or the other.

Kirk Strong [00:29:32] And. And also, you know.

Karen Strong [00:29:34] Right. We don't even have a modern document where Joseph Smith ever addressed polygamy. Ever even really talked about it personally.

Kirk Strong [00:29:43] Personally. So, like, at the end of Joseph's life, last two years of Joseph's life, there were supposedly, according to the record, 25 men who had. I think there's a total of 42 women that had been sealed to them or something like that. Okay. Of those, the only supposed births are four before Joseph's dead. Right. Is four.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] Now you've made that point that there's no children.

Kirk Strong [00:30:10] Well, what I'm saying is after Joseph dies, all sudden there's children. And what I'm saying is it is not beyond my belief that some of the men who carry on with the church after Joseph did think that there should be polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Is it possible. Is it possible that some of the brethren were practicing polygamy while Joseph was alive?

Kirk Strong [00:30:37] Yes, I think it's possible that there were some secretly doing it, but I do not believe Joseph was.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:30:45] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:30:46] Sure. So Wendy writes, I think they're only honoring evidence that supports their point of view and dismissing evidence that challenges it. It. You don't have to answer that.

Kirk Strong [00:30:56] That's fine.

Karen Strong [00:30:57] No, no, we're. We're saying that there's not enough evidence for either side.

Kirk Strong [00:31:02] That's why I recommend that.

Karen Strong [00:31:03] So I am going to go tie to the runner.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] You know, Well, I, I'm a fan of, of William Law. I. I feel like he had a lot of integrity. That's just my reading of his life. So I'm not inclined to want to dismiss William Law because I think he paid a big price for what he did. And, but, but, you know, it's okay. People have different beliefs and these are yours. And this is your reading of the history. It's, it's. But it's reasonable.

Karen Strong [00:31:31] I think one of the things that Denver pointed out is that he personally just pushed out all the evidence and all the. And he just went with the Joseph Smith. There was another fellow that did that, that helped him with the research after Brian Wells or something like that.

Kirk Strong [00:31:51] Brian C. Hills. Brian C. Hills is. Actually believes Joseph was a polygamist.

Karen Strong [00:31:57] But he singled out all the statements just centered in. Not on the. The others, just Joseph Smith and all, all of, all of that information.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] But anyway, I'm just thinking Heber C. Kimball, Parley P. Pratt, you know, Brigham Young, John Taylor Williams, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow. These are all contemporaries of Joseph and they all would have. Would have also believed and taught that Joseph was practicing polygamy. So they would have all.

Karen Strong [00:32:30] But I'm telling you what I believe. Okay. That's all I can do.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Yeah, no, that's fine. No, that's fine.

Karen Strong [00:32:36] Can I approve it? Not on this case.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] No, that's fine. Yeah.

Kirk Strong [00:32:39] And like I say, there was something going on for sure. See, and you can become.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] But maybe Joseph didn't know or Joseph didn't approve.

Kirk Strong [00:32:49] Well, there was this law of adoption going on. And what I'm saying is it was a very misunderstood Joseph. Brigham Young didn't even understand it. After Joseph is gone and he. I think it's in winter quarters, he has a dream where Joseph comes to him and he asked Joseph, I don't understand the law of adoption. I don't understand what's going on with it.

Kirk Strong [00:33:10] And that eventually becomes our, you know, what we're doing with the Temple. But it was not understood what that teaching of Joseph Smith was really about and doing. And so if it is from that teaching and that principle that I believe the confusion over polygamy arose. And when you don't understand what's going on with it and you misunderstand it, or you have temptations of the flesh which cause you to want to misunderstand it, whatever it was, after Joseph is gone, he is not there. And he didn't answer Brigham Young. He diverts the topic and just says, just tell the saints to get the spirit. In other words, you don't even have the power and right anymore because you don't have the fullness of the priesthood to know and understand what the law of adoption is about.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] Okay, that's fine. What about the temple? What do you guys believe about the temple ceremony? Are you. Is the temple okay? You're building a temple?

Kirk Strong [00:34:25] Well, when. When we're raising funds, when the Lord is prepared to gather his people for the establishment of the new Jerusalem and Zion, there must be a temple built there.

Karen Strong [00:34:45] That's very clear.

Kirk Strong [00:34:45] That command will come at some later date. I anticipate quite some time.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] So a new Zion, a new Jerusalem, separate from independence, is yet to be established. And is Denver the official mouthpiece of God? Could that revelation come through you or through you?

Kirk Strong [00:35:05] Well, if it came through me, I would be a deceiver.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] Why?

Kirk Strong [00:35:10] Because I certainly haven't stood in the presence of the Lord to get any kind of. That kind of instruction.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] But it could come through you, could it? In your movement, is Denver the one that ends up calling the shots? Or can other people receive revelation for the movement?

Kirk Strong [00:35:29] Absolutely. Everybody can receive revelation for the movement,

John Dehlin [00:35:35] that kind of thing. Where Jerusalem, where Zion will be when it's time to build the Temple. Does that have to come through Denver?

Kirk Strong [00:35:45] How would, how would I explain this way. I would explain this is there's been two cities of Zion, two Zions that have been established so far on the Earth. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] God's not doing too well.

Kirk Strong [00:35:57] Wait, one was because it's very hard. It's. Very few people can rise up to do what's required. It requires serious repentance. And so you have Enoch, right? And you have Melchizedek. We don't know much about either one. But what we do know, that they were teachers who called the people to repentance and they were authorized from God to do so. God is a God of patterns, I anticipate and would expect that he will follow a similar pattern. It's not 50 million people that can decide when, where, how, what, Zion. It will be through an authorized servant. But until that happens, you don't know until it's happened. It hasn't happened. So when and if it happens, then we'll be able to tell you who exactly that servant was. That call. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:36:58] It does. And I've, as I've read through your websites and literature, I can't find, you know, just boldly, denver Snuffer's our prophet. He's the prophet. There's. It's. It seems like I think he's even. I think I read a Salt Lake Tribune article where he said he doesn't even like that term, if I'm remembering correctly. So straighten that out. You've talked about the term prophet being anyone who's stood in the presence of God or Christ. But what is Denver, and what isn't he? And why don't you know what keeps you all from just saying, yep, he's our prophet? Or do you say that I've already answered, Is Denver Schnaufer your prophet?

Kirk Strong [00:37:42] Well, like we've talked about this before, has he stood in the presence of God in the councils of heaven and been authorized from God to deliver a message? Absolutely. Is he the head of an institution or a church? No.

Kirk Strong [00:37:58] Is he inviting all people to rise up to know God? Yes. Is he also emphasizing, I am nothing special, I am just like the rest of you, we are all equals. Zion can't even happen unless there are all people who participate in Zion rise up to know the Lord. They're all. They're all people who have come to that obedience to God where they've taken on them as attributes and, and have received that blessing from him. So now, here's one other thing, though, that I will say the power of Joseph Smith's message was that he declared the heavens were opened again and God was doing a work.

Kirk Strong [00:38:44] The power of the message being delivered by Denver Snuffer is that God is moving his hand again for the second time to finish off what was begun by the restoration of Joseph Smith, but never finished and cut short because of the failures which we talked about in 124.

Kirk Strong [00:39:03] Now, the other thing I will say is, in order to have faith on earth, faith in God, you must hear and be taught the message of God from one who is sent. That is taught in the New Testament.

Kirk Strong [00:39:22] Faith cometh by hearing the word of God and hearing by one who is sent. An individual is sent not from another man ordaining him. Peter never ordained Paul. Paul was ordained from God. A messenger is sent when they have been sent from the presence of God with a legitimate, authorized message.

Kirk Strong [00:39:45] That I would very much say does describe Denver Snuffer. Does that make sense? But again, do we worship him? Do we sustain him as some kind of leaders? Absolutely not. In fact, two people approached him and said, hey, can we sustain you at a conference?

Kirk Strong [00:40:03] And he's like, what are you talking about? Absolutely not. I don't know be sustained by anybody. This is. This is. I may have an assignment. He would say, I may have an assignment from God, and I am doing that. But that makes me no different than the rest of you.

Kirk Strong [00:40:23] That makes me, in fact, a servant. But I want to be with fellow servants. We're all servants of the Lord. And handmaidens, I would assume.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] Do you. Do you have a sense for how many people in the movement have seen Christ?

Karen Strong [00:40:43] No.

Kirk Strong [00:40:44] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] Ten hundred.

Kirk Strong [00:40:46] I do know that there's some who have made that claim. I probably have heard about 10. I don't know them all personally. I do know, other than Denver, I do know three that I know that I. The Spirit has said to me. Yes, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Okay. And is there answering all the questions?

Kirk Strong [00:41:14] Sorry. Okay. I'm being quiet. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] Kirk, what is. Yeah, this one.

Karen Strong [00:41:20] Karen, it's gonna be hard.

Kirk Strong [00:41:23] Make it hard. Teach them. Teach them, Teach them.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] Is it rude to ask someone if they've seen Christ in the movement? Do people share their testimonies and say, I've stood in his presence or whatever?

Karen Strong [00:41:37] No, it's rare. It's rare they don't go out of their way to share it for the most part.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Have you talked to. Have you talked to people who have or claim they have?

Karen Strong [00:41:48] I've heard one or two people claim that they have, but I didn't get the feeling that it was accurate, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] So there's some that may claim it,

Karen Strong [00:41:57] that it may not be true, but that's my feelings. Maybe it is true, but I didn't

John Dehlin [00:42:03] sense that's what people are striving for. That's amazing.

Karen Strong [00:42:06] You've got to realize that when you have an institute, you don't have an institution, you have a gathering and you have a teacher that's teaching, but you're going to get all types. And I think the funnels, I think the gospel is like this right now. It's a funnel and they're bringing a lot of people in that are interested in listening to an authorized messenger. But I think as time goes on, it will narrow and narrow and narrow.

Kirk Strong [00:42:42] But to see Christ, it's a many years journey. Does that make sense? I mean, for a lot of people, they just barely were awakened to the concept of learning to conform their life so that they could be able to do that. And the truth is I think that for a lot of people it may not be until they're in Zion, but they will have qualified by learning to become and do what Christ has modeled for them. And I don't know if that answers that.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Sure. Are, are you guys comfortable sharing whether you've sought that experience and had it? Are you, Is that a rude question for me to even ask?

Kirk Strong [00:43:30] Probably not comfortable at.

Karen Strong [00:43:33] If we said we are not comfortable, then that would maybe imply that we have. I have not.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] You're saying you have not seen Christ?

Karen Strong [00:43:43] I have not. I have not. Have. I had some real interesting experiences, yes. But I have not seen Christ in the flesh.

Kirk Strong [00:43:55] But I did have an experience in 2014 where I was studying for a Relief Society lesson, actually, and it was on the Patriarchal Fathers and it was very, very close to the Spirit. And. I was pretty much promised that I would and I feel that I have confidence in that, you know, promise.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] So you're kind of living for that.

Karen Strong [00:44:32] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] You're kind of living for that day.

Kirk Strong [00:44:34] Yeah, striving for it. Striving, Striving. Because I know it requires, for me, it requires the sacrifice of all things. And when you've sacrificed sufficiently to that the Lord will see that you will serve him at all costs, then in his time he'll. He'll do that.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] Is there, are there like people in the movement that are sort of generally understood to have also seen Christ and it's kind of like, oh, he's, he's seen him. No, they, they, they haven't seen him, but they Have.

Karen Strong [00:45:06] I don't believe so.

Kirk Strong [00:45:06] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] So for you guys, you don't.

Kirk Strong [00:45:09] That I know of, no.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] Are there 12 apostles?

Karen Strong [00:45:11] No.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] Why aren't there 12 apostles?

Kirk Strong [00:45:14] That's a New Testament church. That's. That's an organization. The 12 Apostles was.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Joseph Smith had 12 apostles.

Kirk Strong [00:45:21] Right, right. Because the restoration got modeled temporarily after the early Christian church. Because I don't want to get too deep, but I'm just going to say this. That's because with the death of Jesus Christ, the Jews were given their. Okay, here was your opportunity to get the gospel right. They reject it and it's going to go to the Gentiles. Now the Gentiles aren't truly the house of Israel. And so they had to be modeled with a system which patterned after the house of Israel and meaning father Abraham, you had Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Right. 3. And then you had the 12 sons of Israel and then you had 70 descendants who were brought into Egypt of Israel.

Kirk Strong [00:46:17] So this is the pattern of God's family was coming off of Abraham. Because when you go to the Gentiles, you're not really house of Israel. God still has to order his people in a way. And so I'm probably doing a terrible job explaining this, but this is why you get this concept of a first presidency, 12 and then 70. It's a gentile way of. It's a way of ordering and organizing Gentiles to mimic the house of Israel.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] But we won't see that again.

Kirk Strong [00:46:51] No, we are not going there again. We are going back the paradise to what was in the first millennium. Order, the patriarchal, the religion and priesthood. That was in the time of Adam and the great patriarchs.

Karen Strong [00:47:05] And Joseph Smith prophesied that.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Okay, are these the latter days?

Kirk Strong [00:47:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Is there a sense, is his Denver or others given a sense for how Christ's return will be?

Kirk Strong [00:47:20] No. Any hints of that for me, my personal. Like me, the clock's ticking. In your lifetime, you think if a people will repent. If a people will repent and take the Lord up on his invitation to climb the mountain, climb Mount Sinai, say symbolically, then Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] How many people need to do it? 10, like thousand? 5,000?

Karen Strong [00:47:49] Why don't anybody.

Kirk Strong [00:47:51] The offer is to anybody, but there may be few who respond, but it doesn't matter. Numbers 144,000.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] What do you mean it doesn't matter?

Kirk Strong [00:47:59] God's got billions of children and you know what? And he will take care of all of them. This is, this is a worldwide family of God that he's talking about.

Karen Strong [00:48:09] Your questions actually are counterproductive because of two reasons. Number one, you're asking people that have not stood in the presence of God and have. I would be much more comfortable if you would. If you would read what Denver has has written because most of these questions can be answered and I think you'll be thoroughly impressed because I believe the spirit will bear bear witness to you. But the other reason is, is that you're asking some pretty deep questions that would. In order to come up with a logical answer, it would. You would have to lay some prerequisites.

Kirk Strong [00:48:54] It probably doesn't make any sense what we're saying. Even.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Okay. But. But the second coming is coming.

Kirk Strong [00:49:03] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:49:05] You don't think it is sooner than later?

Kirk Strong [00:49:06] The second coming is coming and the Lord must prepare a people, otherwise the earth would be utterly wasted. It is coming.

Karen Strong [00:49:15] You know, to date, I have never met a true atheist. I have never met anybody that doesn't actually believe in God. I've met a lot of people that act like they don't want to believe in God. But I think it's a natural, inborn, innate instinct in all human beings to know that something's coming. Maybe something's coming.

Movement Structure, Size, and Community Practices

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Okay, you mentioned that the temple. Okay. Again, one more time. Oh, okay. So as far as. Has anyone ever given a revelation apart from Denver, that applied to everyone in the movement?

Kirk Strong [00:49:58] I know we've had a situation where.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] Hasn't happened yet.

Kirk Strong [00:50:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Has anyone ever claimed revelation and people started to wonder about it and then Denver had to say, nope, that wasn't legitimate. No one's ever challenged.

Kirk Strong [00:50:09] You know what? He would never do that. He would never. He would.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] If someone challenges authority. If someone said, oh wait, I know when the second coming is or I know where the temple is supposed to be.

Karen Strong [00:50:20] Or you know what he would say? I don't have it.

Kirk Strong [00:50:22] No, you know what he would say?

John Dehlin [00:50:23] What would he say?

Kirk Strong [00:50:24] He would say, you have to figure out for yourself. Go to God to the find out to the members. You find out whether that is accurate or not. I'm not going to sit here and tell you, you got your connection to heaven. You go ask God whether what that individual is declaring is true or false.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] So he doesn't come to me.

Kirk Strong [00:50:49] Oh, no, there's nothing to excommunicate him from.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] From.

Karen Strong [00:50:52] Yeah, okay.

Kirk Strong [00:50:54] There's nothing. This is total equality. No strong man, no leader. It is so foreign to our concept in LDS Church. We are so institution leadership oriented. Look up the ladder. This is not. This is. Everyone must Be leader. There cannot be an institution. There cannot. This must be the individual rising up.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] Okay. I read somewhere that there's like over a thousand, but I've also heard tens, you know, over 10,000. Is the number being underestimated? Is it really only a little bit more than a thousand? Is it less than 2,000 or just.

Karen Strong [00:51:34] Well, there's. There's no real way to identify people. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] But you can have a sense.

Karen Strong [00:51:44] Well, no, it's actually, there's people all. All over the world. I was just on a committee and I was working with some. England. A person in England. And what I'm saying is that there's no way. We haven't taken a census. We haven't taken that.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] Do you have a sense? What's your guess?

Karen Strong [00:52:09] Oh, as far as people that really believe in all this, I would say it's probably close to a thousand plus.

Kirk Strong [00:52:19] Couple thousand.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Couple thousand. Not. Not ten thousand there.

Kirk Strong [00:52:24] I guess there could be, but I just really wouldn't have any way of knowing.

Karen Strong [00:52:30] A lot of people don't want to identify.

Kirk Strong [00:52:32] Yeah.

Karen Strong [00:52:33] For they don't want to be.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] How many of you are active members of the church?

Kirk Strong [00:52:38] There's no way to know.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Do you know active members of the church?

Kirk Strong [00:52:41] Yeah, I do know some that are still active a lot.

Karen Strong [00:52:44] Few.

Kirk Strong [00:52:45] Few. Most that are really, you know, that I know are. Have. Are not. Are not. But I actually do have some friends who are.

Karen Strong [00:52:57] That's great.

Kirk Strong [00:52:58] You know, that's totally great. In fact. In fact, you could be Catholic and believe in this. You could. You could be a member of any denomination. And that's what I was telling is Denver just went and. Did you know how he spoke first? The 10 talks was to the Mormon corridor. He just gave three talks. September, October, November, one in California, one in Texas and one in Atlanta, which were to the Christians.

Kirk Strong [00:53:21] That was declaring the message to the Christians. And, you know, he. He basically invited them to follow the doctrine of Christ. And that right now, where we're at is kind of mimicking original Christianity, where you're meeting in homes and, you know, collecting your own tithes, using it for the poor among you, that kind of thing.

Kirk Strong [00:53:48] So. But it's to anybody. And one of the things he said is if you're a Baptist and you want to be a Baptist, but this message resonates with you, and you want to heed the invitation to be baptized by one who's authorized, you can receive that. You're not under any obligation to leave your religion. So that's another thing people need to understand Just because a lot of Mormons have, doesn't mean that that's required. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Yep. How is authority conferred? Who has authority? Is LDS authority legitimate right now? When. When someone's baptized into the LDS Church, is that recognized by God?

Kirk Strong [00:54:29] Not since 2014. Remember that General Conference I told you about?

John Dehlin [00:54:32] So it's not for. Said any ordinance performed after this date is not legitimately.

Kirk Strong [00:54:37] And he talks about that at one of the talks that the Lord came to him and he is now done with that. But if you were ordained to Priesthood prior to 2014, your ordination is valid. Now, whether you connect with God, priesthood is really. You do have to have an ordination, but priesthood is really your connection to God. So what degree or how effective or what power is found in your priesthood depends upon your connection to God.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Okay. And so it's just laying on of hands. Is there a Melchizedek priesthood?

Kirk Strong [00:55:15] All priesthood is the same.

Karen Strong [00:55:17] Priesthood, priesthood.

John Dehlin [00:55:18] So there's no distinction between Aaronic and Melchizedek?

Karen Strong [00:55:20] No. Think of it as one thing, one continuum.

Kirk Strong [00:55:25] Think of it as one thing as you. You can have a little portion of it down here, or you can have a fullness of it up here, which is to know God. Right. And depending upon your heat and diligence.

Karen Strong [00:55:38] That's one that it's unfair to answer.

Kirk Strong [00:55:41] Very difficult. Yeah. It's a very long question.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:55:44] But that's a simple answer.

Women, Race, and Priesthood in the Movement

John Dehlin [00:55:45] Women. Women in the priesthood.

Karen Strong [00:55:47] Well, the man answers. Yeah.

Kirk Strong [00:55:53] Let's see if he gets this right.

Karen Strong [00:55:54] She will correct me. I'll give you the header and then she'll give you the details.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] Quick answer. We're running out of time.

Karen Strong [00:56:01] Okay. Because of the fall, because of Eve's decision, Denver was told that women will not be able to hold the priesthood until at a later time. And then it would be reversed. But something unusual happened. You want to explain?

Kirk Strong [00:56:22] And that's as far as the public ordinances, meaning baptism, sacrament, as a condition of the fall until the millennium. But one thing that's different with us is there's a difference between priesthood and faith. Faith through faith, you can lay hold upon all the gifts of the Spirit, including healing.

Kirk Strong [00:56:43] So I, as a woman can. If I had a sick child, I could lay hands according to my faith with my husband on my child, which is something Joseph Smith taught. Right. Because that's a consequence of faith. It's not a priesthood thing. The other thing is because my husband and I, we are. We have.

Kirk Strong [00:57:05] I hate to use the word authority, but our family is our kingdom. Right. That's who we have a responsibility over as husband and wife, mother and father. I could stand with my husband, bless my children if I wanted to get them, you know, they're going, they have a dilemma. They need a blessing of comfort, counsel, whatever. I could stand with them.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] Have you done that? Have you done mother's blessings?

Kirk Strong [00:57:29] I have.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] How does that feel?

Kirk Strong [00:57:31] Great.

Karen Strong [00:57:32] That she hasn't performed ordinances, but I don't consider for the.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] But healing. Yes. Have you done healing ordinance?

Kirk Strong [00:57:38] I have, yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] How is that?

Kirk Strong [00:57:41] I mean, great. I just. You say, how was it? I mean, I.

Karen Strong [00:57:46] She doesn't baptize, she doesn't administer the sacrament. You know, there's no.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Does it bug you that you're being punished for what Eve did?

Kirk Strong [00:57:53] No, because, you know, Denver just wrote another paper called the Holy Order. And what I understand is when we are not in this telestial condition and we move into a terrestrial condition of Zion in the millennium, and then we'll receive the temple that's there then is when you'll have the true understanding, the priesthood that's connected there. You know how I said that paradigm from the Aaronic to this fullness, that's when you're dealing with this fullness. And that is all about the man and the woman together. And I have no worries, no concerns. No. I don't feel ripped off, gypped off. I. I feel like I get what God's doing and I don't have a problem with it.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Blacks in the priesthood, was that of God to take it away from them? Are there people of color in your movement? Are they welcoming your movement? Could a black person.

Kirk Strong [00:58:53] We're in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Could a black person. So have you ever seen a black.

Kirk Strong [00:58:59] We had a black woman come and visit our fellowship, but.

John Dehlin [00:59:03] But you've never heard of a. Someone baptized.

Kirk Strong [00:59:06] Oh, you know what? There is some up in Canada. I went to a youth conference and there were some kids that came down from Canada baptized. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] Can they be. Can they get the priesthood? Can blacks get the priesthood?

Kirk Strong [00:59:18] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] It's okay.

Kirk Strong [00:59:21] I. I was that of God when

John Dehlin [00:59:22] it was taken from them.

Kirk Strong [00:59:24] I will. You know, Denver does a hole in passing the heavenly gift, the one that he gets excommunicated for. He does a whole chapter where he lays out the history.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Quick answer. What's the quick answer?

Kirk Strong [00:59:34] Black and black Blacks and the priestess. No, it's misunderstood. What was going on.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] Okay.

Kirk Strong [00:59:39] What was going on is misunderstood.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] Okay. Yeah. Because Joseph gave blacks the priesthood.

Kirk Strong [00:59:43] Right. Elijah, Abel, I get all that stuff. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Okay.

Karen Strong [00:59:48] That's it.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Law of chastity. Is masturbation bad?

Karen Strong [00:59:54] No comment.

Kirk Strong [00:59:55] I haven't talked. I've heard say about that.

Karen Strong [00:59:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] Has that been taught? I'm just.

Kirk Strong [01:00:00] No, it hasn't been talked about. What has been talked about is obviously fornication.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] No premarital sex.

Kirk Strong [01:00:07] No premarital sex.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] And no adultery. And no adultery in the heavens. Is there polygamy? No, it's monogamy in heaven.

Kirk Strong [01:00:15] That's what I believe. But I don't think he's addressed that. But my personal belief, you're asking some

Karen Strong [01:00:22] things that I have strong opinions on. But that's about words.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] But there's no revelation about that type

Karen Strong [01:00:28] of stuff on some of them. But the. But you got to go get your own revelation on some of these.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Okay, what about the scripture? Talk about you have scripture and I went and looked at it. There's some. So you have like 180 something sections in your doctrine and Covenants. Right.

Kirk Strong [01:00:47] This is the exciting part. All right, this is what's been going on for the last six months.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] Yeah. Update us in a minute.

Kirk Strong [01:00:54] Okay. The one minute update is whenever God begins a new work, you have to try to bring to the best of your ability all of his words that have been given to you, that are known. And you have to make a most correct. Oh, the words not coming to me, but the most correct fulsome version of that. The Church never did that with what Joseph Smith gave them. They never took the, the inspired version of what Joseph did with the Bible and actually made it available to the Saints. They put some in the footnotes and some in the back, but there never was a complete compilation.

Kirk Strong [01:01:36] And Joseph called that the fullness of the Scriptures. And if without it the church would fall, it would fail. Okay. And the church never did do that. What we have done was a group of individuals separately and apart from each other. Both were inspired to begin making a better collection of what Joseph had done. And then on their own they were. They were eventually brought together and we have labored for months to try to find every correction change that Joseph made to the Bible and put it in to one continuous as it belongs. Right? One continuous thing. We've taken the Book of Mormon based upon the 1840 edition, which is the last one that Joseph made corrections on.

Kirk Strong [01:02:23] He did the 1837. The LDS Church has been using the 1841 edition of the Book of Mormon which was based on 1837 corrections. We are using the 1840 edition to give the most accurate up to date what Joseph was doing. We have taken the doctrine of Covenants. And, and I apologize if I'm flubbing this up for people out there.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] Give us a sense.

Kirk Strong [01:02:51] But the, the Doctrine and Covenants, what we did on that is we're trying to say, like I told you, there's been lots of things where Oliver Cowdery added stuff in after the fact, after Revelation or somebody altered this or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] Anything more stuff added after Joseph died.

Kirk Strong [01:03:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Like section 132.

Kirk Strong [01:03:07] Right. So anything that we can find, the

Karen Strong [01:03:11] punctuation problems that were not put in under, you know, inspiration, it was actually

John Dehlin [01:03:16] put in by the section 132, isn't there?

Kirk Strong [01:03:19] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] So there is a section.

Kirk Strong [01:03:21] If there's any question about whether this is Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith only going to source documents and Joseph Smith papers. Tons of research has gone into this that there were. There were revelations that were added in that are authenticated to be from Joseph. And there are things that have been taken out or portions of a section taken out if it cannot be directly connected to Joseph or Hyrum.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] And then there's a bunch of, like, there's. There's a bunch of revelations from Denver. Some of it are talks that he's given excerpts from talks that you've referenced. Sometimes there's blog posts. Like it'll say from the blog of Denver Snuffer. There are sections out of his blog, which was weird there.

Kirk Strong [01:04:08] I think there's one or two. Where. When he gave a blog and this was not up to Denver, Denver was not deciding that. That was not Denver's decision. In fact, it was. The people voted on what would be in there. There were maybe one or two of those that Denver was told by the Lord. That has to go.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] I'm just saying it's a little weird, but that doesn't mean you're bad.

Kirk Strong [01:04:28] But those were. Those were blog posts that were not modern.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] Scripture by blog. That's kind of modern.

Kirk Strong [01:04:39] It's probably the same where that was originally given.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] But I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it was weird.

Karen Strong [01:04:44] But I'm pretty excited to have a lot of the things cleaned up and added in and some of the things that were really shouldn't have been there, you know?

John Dehlin [01:04:55] Yeah, you're excited. But the thing is, what's the St.

Karen Strong [01:04:58] John's in fact, you. I don't even know if you're aware of Joseph's final dream. Dream. Are you aware of that?

Kirk Strong [01:05:07] No, that's in there.

Karen Strong [01:05:09] And that's in the back of the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. Have you Ever heard that one?

John Dehlin [01:05:14] No.

Karen Strong [01:05:14] Oh, my heavens. You ought to just read it to him.

Kirk Strong [01:05:16] We don't have time.

Karen Strong [01:05:17] Oh, they ought to take time for this one.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] We'll do it in the next one.

Kirk Strong [01:05:20] Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] Joseph Smith's the. The next interview I do next week with.

Kirk Strong [01:05:25] Oh, with what's his name? Matt Lohmeyer.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Matt, yeah.

Karen Strong [01:05:27] Oh, okay.

Kirk Strong [01:05:28] So just Joseph Smith's dream. Asked him about that, but it's basically the night before he dies in Carthage jail.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] What section is it? Do you know?

Kirk Strong [01:05:36] I don't know because I haven't had the hard copy yet.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] What's the St. John stuff? Really quick.

Kirk Strong [01:05:41] That's. That's fabulous. That is the Gospel of John that we still have the Gospel of John as is found in the New Testament with Joseph Smith's editions. But this was basically a direct revelation from the Lord that this needed to get done. And Denver started to do it with, you know, his Greek dictionary and trying to figure out, okay, going from the original and making, like, a literal translation.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Where does the original come from?

Kirk Strong [01:06:12] There's the Gospel of John in Greek.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Okay. But no one's translated it.

Kirk Strong [01:06:16] Well, no, it's what's known as the Gospel of John in the New Testament. Okay. So that's. That's. What you have in the New Testament is like King James version of a translation off the Greek version of the Gospel of John. And now we have it in English. Okay. What. What Denver was asked by the Lord to do is there's actually some.

Kirk Strong [01:06:40] Because of the. The lack of inspiration of who's translating. You don't always get the correct intent of what the author was doing when you're going from the languages. So Denver was told by the Lord you need to redo the Gospel of John, even though we're still keeping the original.

Kirk Strong [01:06:58] And he doesn't explain what. But he said he was about ready to give up because it was so difficult. He thought, I can't do this. Prayed to the Lord, and all he says is, I was given the means whereby I was able to do it. And he did it within a very short period of time. And it was also on his blog under the download section. You can find it there. And I would recommend people read that. It is very, very beautiful, very enlightening, and helps you understand eternal progression a little bit more.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Does it add a ton to what's already there in John?

Karen Strong [01:07:34] Not a ton, but it sure crystallizes and clarifies some issues.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Are you gonna stick that in place of John? No, we're still leaving at some point.

Kirk Strong [01:07:42] The Original John. Because there are still things to learn from that. But.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:07:48] I love that. The new John. It's, it's. It's fascinating.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] So it kind of. You read that in place of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Kirk Strong [01:07:56] Both.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:07:57] Both.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Okay. I know. I have a couple more questions that are important.

Karen Strong [01:08:05] No, you're done.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] What?

Karen Strong [01:08:07] You're done.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] You're done. I'm not done. Let me just think. I got a couple. Oh, homosexuality, same sex attraction, traditional same sex attraction has not been members of your movement.

Kirk Strong [01:08:21] If they are, they're not saying anything. But I would say your traditional. It hasn't been a topic that has been addressed a lot or real blatantly. But I will just say in the eighth talk, he talks about marriage. Or the ninth talk. The ninth talk. Okay. In order of importance, he gave these talks. Right. The ninth talk is about marriage. And in that, I'll just say this. He starts with. He starts, one man, one woman. Adam and Eve are in the image of God. That is the image of God.

Karen Strong [01:08:52] That's right.

Kirk Strong [01:08:53] Adam and Eve.

Karen Strong [01:08:54] Yeah.

Kirk Strong [01:08:55] Male, female.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Is it like a big sin? Is there like, is there excommunication in your movement for sin?

Karen Strong [01:09:02] There's no excuse.

Kirk Strong [01:09:03] There's no. There's nothing to get excommunicated from.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] So a gay, lesbian person could be a part of your movement.

Kirk Strong [01:09:10] A gay or lesbian person who would be acting out on that would be required to do, just like all of us have to do. You have to still repent and live God's word in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] But they could go to house church and come to your conferences.

Kirk Strong [01:09:25] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [01:09:26] Take the sacrament.

Kirk Strong [01:09:29] I haven't had this experience, so I really don't know.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] Is the sacrament ever withheld from anyone?

Karen Strong [01:09:34] Yes. The sacrament is for people that have been baptized.

Kirk Strong [01:09:40] So when the scriptures talk about don't let those who are unworthy partake of the sacrament. It's not. It's not. Oh, did you commit a sin last week? If you read the whole. What that's given in it's about that you do not let those who have not taken upon them the name of Christ through baptism and entered into that covenant. That's what that's really about.

Karen Strong [01:10:00] Getting close now.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Word of wisdom. Can you drink beer?

Kirk Strong [01:10:06] There are people in the movement that do because they.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Because the word of wisdom says, Mildred's a party bright.

Kirk Strong [01:10:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] So there are beer drinkers and wine drinkers. Because you can do wine in your sacrament.

Kirk Strong [01:10:17] Yeah, but if you know the word of wisdom is given not as a command, but as a word of wisdom. Right. So our personal thing, we've chosen to still be very traditional in that. So we only use wine for the sacrament because really about our family.

Karen Strong [01:10:32] But there are others that use it.

Kirk Strong [01:10:33] The word of wisdom says to use wine for sacrament. So I would say weddings. And for me, for me, I don't want to speak for everybody, but for me it's weddings and the sacrament.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] So there's no official interpretation for everyone about the word of wisdom?

Kirk Strong [01:10:50] No, no. But I would. Obviously you're not trying.

Karen Strong [01:10:55] Could come in the future, but hasn't yet.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:10:58] There's a lot coming in the future.

Kirk Strong [01:10:59] Strong drinks.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] What about coffee and tea?

Karen Strong [01:11:03] That's pretty open right now. People are.

Kirk Strong [01:11:05] Yeah, I think people are. I think the interpretation for a lot of people. And again, it's hard for me to speak. I can't speak for everybody. Somebody might be sitting out there going, I have a terrible answer.

Karen Strong [01:11:16] Most of these, they're going to say that about.

Kirk Strong [01:11:17] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:11:18] But especially these quick ones.

Kirk Strong [01:11:20] Coffee and tea, I would say for

John Dehlin [01:11:22] me, do my best.

Kirk Strong [01:11:23] I am leaning toward that it's the temperature because of what that can do, the esophageal cancer and the killing of bacteria. That it's more about the. How hot. So when it says hot temperature. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] So iced coffee. Iced tea would be.

Kirk Strong [01:11:39] Well, you could even drink.

Karen Strong [01:11:41] I. I don't know. I don't know.

Kirk Strong [01:11:43] That's just me. That's what I've come to my conclusion. But there's people who don't. There's people who do.

Karen Strong [01:11:49] Next,

John Dehlin [01:11:52] any other important teaching or initiative that is worth calling out and focusing on next time. We've talked about temples, We've talked about scripture. You do conferences regularly.

Karen Strong [01:12:05] You might want to clarify a fellowship. What is a fellowship? What happens within the fellowship.

Kirk Strong [01:12:11] And speak with Matt. Just because I know we're out of time. Speak with Matt about the covenant and you can have his take on also the scriptures and the covenant, how it leads together.

John Dehlin [01:12:21] There was a covenant that was released in this last general conference.

Kirk Strong [01:12:24] There was a covenant that was received in. In. Yes. In September.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] And people like either voted to accept it or not.

Karen Strong [01:12:31] Right.

Kirk Strong [01:12:31] And it had to do with the scriptures. It's why the scriptures were prepared.

John Dehlin [01:12:35] I was watching it on YouTube.

Karen Strong [01:12:37] Really?

John Dehlin [01:12:38] Yeah.

Karen Strong [01:12:39] Been there.

Kirk Strong [01:12:40] Ask Matt more about that. Because that's really the big deal of what's going on is the Scriptures and the entering in the covenant. And this is all preparation for having the right and obligation connected with the new Jerusalem, with Zion, with gathering Israel. But it's heavy responsibilities to live according in Word, thought and deed, what is given to in scripture. That's why the scripture scriptures had to be honored. You must show God that you honor the word that he's given to you so he will give you more and that you are also willing to live that which he has given you. You have respect, respect for what he has given you. And then part of the covenant was to guide your life by those scriptures.

John Dehlin [01:13:29] Is the covenant in your Doctrine of Covenants, was it added to it? So people read the covenant in December

Kirk Strong [01:13:35] when it gets published.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] So it'll be published in December. This is like something that people are signing up for, committing to Amazon.

Kirk Strong [01:13:42] I guess it'll be through the, you know how you can get the book.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Oh, you're saying the scriptures will be available?

Karen Strong [01:13:48] Yes, hopefully will be in there.

John Dehlin [01:13:51] But the scriptures, they're hoping to have them ready by December.

Kirk Strong [01:13:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] By next month.

Kirk Strong [01:13:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] The first version of the first version of the Christ.

Kirk Strong [01:14:00] Buy it, you won't want to miss it.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] Yeah, leather bound?

Kirk Strong [01:14:04] No, that's coming. But not.

Karen Strong [01:14:07] They're going to do the first edition without the onion paper and the leather because, you know, there, there might be a few adjustments that we need to make.

John Dehlin [01:14:17] So we'll talk about the covenant with Matt and you guys meet just really quickly. You meet on Sundays at people's homes?

Kirk Strong [01:14:24] Yes.

Karen Strong [01:14:24] Not every Sunday, more like every other Sunday.

Kirk Strong [01:14:27] Well, everybody's different. Some fellowships meet every week, some meet once a month.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] Fellowship's like a ward, basically.

Kirk Strong [01:14:34] It's true. You've decided to.

Karen Strong [01:14:36] It's a group of.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] Can you kick people out? If you don't like people in your fellowship, can you boot them?

Kirk Strong [01:14:41] You know what, every fellowship governs themselves.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Okay, how many are in your fellowship? About.

Kirk Strong [01:14:46] We've got about 30.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] Including children?

Karen Strong [01:14:49] Yes, including children.

Kirk Strong [01:14:51] 35.

John Dehlin [01:14:53] And there are people living close to you basically?

Kirk Strong [01:14:56] Pretty much, yeah. Within 40 minutes. Up to Salt Lake. We got some from Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] What are the main components of a fellowship meeting?

Karen Strong [01:15:05] Sacrament, bread and wine, prayer, singing, hymn

John Dehlin [01:15:11] book, our hymns lessons. Mormon hymns.

Kirk Strong [01:15:13] Yeah, we use Mormon hymns.

Karen Strong [01:15:15] Discussing tithing and the needs of the people.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] And so people would give to support other people in the fellowship? Yes. Is there money given across fellowships? Is there a central pool of money?

Kirk Strong [01:15:26] No. Central pool money could be. If the fellowship agreed that somebody needed help, they could. But. But mostly that would be like a one time. But, you know, like we have a single mother in ours that has six children. And so we, we generally focus ours on and a couple of, you know, students who are struggling, things like that.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] What about garments

Karen Strong [01:15:54] that one.

Kirk Strong [01:15:55] Wow. You really are just, like, firing the questions.

Karen Strong [01:15:58] You said you were about eight times.

John Dehlin [01:16:01] Yes or no?

Kirk Strong [01:16:02] What about garments?

Karen Strong [01:16:03] What do you mean, garments? It's up to the individual.

Kirk Strong [01:16:06] Half the people have taken him off and half the people still wear them.

Karen Strong [01:16:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] Are there teachings about the garments? No. Are the. Is it so. We don't know. You don't know if they're. God wants them or not?

Kirk Strong [01:16:19] Well, okay. I would say this. I would say this. You know, there may be people in this movement that don't have the same respect for the temple. But I have heard Denver, and I know my own feeling. I do have respect for the LDS temple and the covenants I've made. And I know that Denver did, and he's always honored his covenants. I've honored my covenants. I don't think I have. I haven't.

Karen Strong [01:16:44] I've never.

Kirk Strong [01:16:45] I don't consider myself having broken my covenants. And I feel I value.

Karen Strong [01:16:50] And I didn't make my covenants with the church. I made my covenants with God.

Kirk Strong [01:16:54] Yeah. And I value what I received, even though I don't think it's the completion. Even though I don't think it's the full thing, what God wants to give. I think there's much to be learned and benefited from to teach and prepare me. And so I do have respect for the temple.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] But there's no teaching about the garments, whether they are what God wants or not.

Karen Strong [01:17:16] Not yet.

Kirk Strong [01:17:17] Not yet.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] Okay. Has anyone other than Denver produced scripture that's been canonized?

Karen Strong [01:17:29] Not yet.

Kirk Strong [01:17:31] Well, there is. We do have. In the new Scriptures, there's something called the prophet's prerogative that was written by somebody else.

John Dehlin [01:17:40] Is that appendix or is that.

Kirk Strong [01:17:41] Yeah. Whether you call that a revelation. Personally, I don't call that a revelation, but it's a. It's an important concept that's.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] It's a dissection, Right?

Kirk Strong [01:17:50] Yeah. And it teaches that dependence.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] Right.

Kirk Strong [01:17:52] Right. It teaches that a dispensation head has certain rights to do things. Some flexibility, rewriting section

Karen Strong [01:18:04] 20, which is guiding principles for people as they come into. And. And that will be written by people other than.

Kirk Strong [01:18:17] Yeah, there is one. There is something that still is not yet completed that will be done, that will replace. Because section 20 was how to govern a church, and this isn't a church.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Last question before I ask you to bear your testimonies. Someone's saying something about a rule book or guidelines or something.

Karen Strong [01:18:35] That's what we just talked.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] What's it called?

Kirk Strong [01:18:37] Guide and print guidelines.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] That's section 20.

Karen Strong [01:18:39] Yeah. The replacing section.

John Dehlin [01:18:41] And so people are asking, has there been controversy or difficulty coming up with that?

Karen Strong [01:18:45] Yes. And the reason why is because.

Kirk Strong [01:18:49] Talk louder.

Karen Strong [01:18:50] Denver was instructed by the Lord that he cannot participate. So he wants the people to learn how to rise up and become one with God and receive these instructions.

John Dehlin [01:19:03] So he's encouraging others to. To get revelation.

Kirk Strong [01:19:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Okay. Well, that's kind of cool.

Karen Strong [01:19:11] Absolutely.

Kirk Strong [01:19:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] What's he like really quickly? Good guy. Boring. Boring.

Karen Strong [01:19:17] Okay. He's a cross between Bruce R. McConkey and Jay Golden Kimball.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] He swears.

Kirk Strong [01:19:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] No. No F bombs though, right?

Karen Strong [01:19:27] No, no, no, no. Yep. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] B, A, B, A, S. No, it's mostly just.

Karen Strong [01:19:37] Damn.

Kirk Strong [01:19:37] Oh, wait, he has said that one before about his. No, no, no. I was gonna say about his colon. No, no.

John Dehlin [01:19:42] I don't know if he had a colossus. He's had a.

Kirk Strong [01:19:44] He had a cold. Bunch of his colon taken out and he made a joke about.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] So he's had cancer.

Kirk Strong [01:19:48] Yeah, no, it was something else. I don't.

Karen Strong [01:19:52] Or something. I don't know. But he. He can be extremely sober. But then other times he can open up with humor. And I.

Kirk Strong [01:20:06] You know what's funny is that language and stuff that he uses. It actually turns a lot of, you know, like strict Mormons off. And here's the beauty of it. I think that part of it is intentional because like I said already, it's not about him if you can't hear the message past the delivery, you know, so if the little swear word is going to bother you, see, there's a test for you. Can you look past that? Because after all, John the Baptist was considered a wild man. So was Enoch. It's not about the Lord. The Lord challenges you because he tests your paradigm. And he wants to see, see, can you hear the word of God? Despite who I send as a messenger. In fact, Denver always says, you can loathe me. You can. You don't have to like me. There's nothing about me you have to like. But the message is something different.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] There are comments here about, like, why does the restoration keep needing to be restored? So, I mean, I think that's a valid question. I don't expect you to answer that. But is it possible Denver or this movement could go astray and there could be a new. A new, you know, restoration? Is that possible?

Kirk Strong [01:21:26] If the. Anything is possible? Because until a work is done, it's not done. Okay, so where is this heading? This is heading to. Hopefully the hope is to establish Zion and prepare a place and a people who Christ can come to.

Karen Strong [01:21:44] But do you have to rise up to do that? Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] And a physical Zion where everyone's moving to the central city. That's what it's moving towards.

Kirk Strong [01:21:51] Right, right. And if people don't repent because, I don't know, Enoch. What Enoch did wouldn't have worked unless people responded to what Enoch.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Yeah, right.

Kirk Strong [01:22:00] Said. So it's up to whether.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] So the. God will keep. God will keep doing this until we get it right.

Karen Strong [01:22:07] Right.

Kirk Strong [01:22:07] But my personal feel is. Is I just feel there's too many

Karen Strong [01:22:11] kind of running out of signs of

Kirk Strong [01:22:12] the times, of what's going on. I mean, how long physical signs that.

Karen Strong [01:22:16] Is there going to be the means to do it? I mean, it would be very difficult to do this if all civilization broke up and it was just pure chaos. You know, it'd be very challenging to do this.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] And you think that's the way the world's heading?

Kirk Strong [01:22:33] Yeah, absolutely. It's like, what's that scripture that talks about a garment that is waxing old?

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Or are you guys preppers? A little bit. Are there a lot of preppers?

Karen Strong [01:22:42] Hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna bear my testimony this way. I'm bearing my testimony.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] This is your final testimony?

Karen Strong [01:22:48] It's my final testimony.

Closing Testimonies and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [01:22:49] All right, everyone. This is Kirk Strong's final, final testimony to end this interview. Go, Kirk. And it's the proper thing that got you.

Karen Strong [01:22:59] Yeah, I. I was a prepper. In fact, I was so into it that I would get asked by families and wards and stakes to come and make a presentation. I had the whole thing. Yeah. Everything. Okay.

Kirk Strong [01:23:12] But we weren't members of anything, like a vow or. No, we weren't like that. We weren't going into tent cities. I know what he means. We're not like that.

Karen Strong [01:23:21] No, we just took food storage. Food storage. And the best way to do it and studied and researched. Well, I'd spent a lot of money. Too much money. And evidently. And so I asked Karen, I said, hey, I want to spend a little bit more money. And she says, oh, don't we have enough stuff? And I said, well, I don't know, hon. Do you ever have enough? And that's the problem with preppers is there's never enough. I mean.

Karen Strong [01:23:47] And so we decided to fast and pray. And this goes back a few years ago. She'll tell you the date and everything because she always remembers things like that. But we fasted and prayed and. And then we were walking around our. Our block as we normally do. And when I got to a certain point, I was said, you know, I think I've got an answer to that question.

Karen Strong [01:24:11] Do we need more food storage? And she said, well, I. I have an answer, too. And so I said, well, what? What was your answer? Who went first? Do you remember? I can't remember, but I think it was me. And I said, I was told we don't need any more food storage. And she said, exactly. And she said, and I was told what we do need. And I kind of said, so was I. And she said, we're not spiritually prepared.

Karen Strong [01:24:38] And I said, I know. And that the Lord has not been very complimentary of us because the two of us, as we've explained to you today, we had all of our T's crossed, all of our I's dotted, all of our merit badges to be the best LDS couple, you know.

Karen Strong [01:24:57] And the Lord let us know that that did not impress him at all. And it shook us to the point that it took us several weeks and months to figure out, where do we start rebuilding this? Because we have made. We don't need any more food storage. I don't even know how that's going to play into the Second Coming. They made it very clear you are not prepared for what's about to happen. You are not prepared.

Karen Strong [01:25:31] That's when we started over. And when we started over, it left the door open. For all the things we've talked about today, and I bear witness to you, that the Lord did speak to us and that the Lord has been working with us. And I would not have given up all the things that I've given up to date if I did not believe with all my heart, with all my mind and my might and my strength that these things were not true. Do I have a perfect knowledge? No. Do I have a knowledge where I've been spoken to by the spirit? Yes.

Karen Strong [01:26:11] I suspect even when people get an angel that comes to them and speaks to them, I suspect that if you talk to them in a year or two, they're going to second guess that one, too, because that's just the nature of mortals. I have had spiritual confirmation of the things that we've talked about, other than the details, such as some of the questions you've asked. I know Denver is an authorized messenger. I know that.

Kirk Strong [01:26:46] Okay.

Karen Strong [01:26:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Before you close, are there people leaving the movement? Are there people who are in it but then lose their faith in it a lot or a little bit?

Kirk Strong [01:26:57] I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] But you've Seen people come and go.

Karen Strong [01:26:59] Probably after this podcast, a whole bunch

John Dehlin [01:27:01] will leave or join or join.

Karen Strong [01:27:04] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] Leave or flock to it? Flock to it.

Kirk Strong [01:27:08] Yeah. I mean, obviously there are. There are people that we know. I know a handful of people who, when we took the covenant in, in the new scriptures in the covenant for them, that was, you know, oh, I don't, you know, they didn't have the faith to go that far, and so they opted out. I don't know who all those people are, but I do know couple. And so I'm sure that that happens. But it's kind of like Gideon's army. You know, you can start with 30,000 and then what does he go down to? 10 or I forget in the end he's down to 300. Numbers don't matter. Has no bearing on anything to me. But you're right, as people leave, there's probably others who come in because trying to find the Lord's sheep and his sheep hear his voice.

John Dehlin [01:28:00] So final testimony.

Kirk Strong [01:28:01] Okay, before I say okay, is it

John Dehlin [01:28:04] okay to give her the last word?

Karen Strong [01:28:06] She'll take it anyway.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Karen Strong, ladies and gentlemen. This is Karen Strong giving you her final testimony.

Kirk Strong [01:28:14] I had to have that last name Strong so that I could deal with him. No, before I give that, I just want to say one more little plug for the website zionsreturn.org and just tell you that that is about 10 to 12 families. Remember, there's no institution, no organization. So anything that gets done in this movement, individuals just kind of have to take it upon themselves to do it. And this was the brainchild of a friend of ours that asked us to help be involved. And it really gives a good summary for somebody to say what is going on in this movement. And you can get as deep into reading as you want.

Kirk Strong [01:28:50] And that's so that science returned, is that Denver approved. We don't have to prove things from Denver that would make him roll over and just want to know. This is grassroots, you know, you don't get instructions. He does not instruct or give commands. No commands? No. He teaches. He's a teacher. And you respond.

Karen Strong [01:29:10] And if you look up Enoch, you'll find out that was the way you need to approach things, too.

Kirk Strong [01:29:13] And then I said earlier, also, if you want to hear the talks that he gave to the Denver gave to the Christians in the United states, it's Christian Reformation 500. The numbers 5, 0, 0. Christian Reformation 500 years.info and then if you really want to read the. The most important things that Denver has given as talks. You would go to denver snuffer.com then you would go to the downloads page. Then you'll see the 40 years in Mormonism. That's the 10 talks. And you will see the testimony of John is on there.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Not me, though.

Kirk Strong [01:29:52] Not your.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] Not different John.

Kirk Strong [01:29:53] Right. The testimony of St. John.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] Okay, so I'm pasting all these in the comments.

Kirk Strong [01:29:59] Okay. So anyway, I. I just want to say. What do I want to say? I hadn't even thought about this before. I hope that it is clear to people that this is not an institution. It's not a church. There's no hierarchy. There's no prophet in the sense of what you think of President Monson as a prophet. This movement is full of people who love Jesus Christ,

Karen Strong [01:30:33] who

Kirk Strong [01:30:35] have heard a message delivered that resonated with their heart and soul, that when they heard it, they said, I hear the words of God in what is being spoken. And as I told my parents one day when I was trying to explain to them the God that Denver teaches about, that's the God that I've always known.

Kirk Strong [01:31:03] That's the God that I have believed in all of my life. And the wonderful thing is that God has not abandoned us. And I was beginning to feel that we had been abandoned and it wasn't making sense to me anymore.

Kirk Strong [01:31:27] And it confused me because nothing meant more to me than the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even though I was conflating that with the church, it really was because God meant everything to me. And I can tell you and bear witness to you that God is moving his hand again for the second time to finish off the work that he began.

Kirk Strong [01:31:54] The heavens are opened. He has sent an authorized messenger. And he is teaching us the things that are required to be known and done by us individually, out of our own free will, with nobody compelling, nobody threatening, nobody forcing, nobody controlling but you of your own self, responding to the voice of God.

Kirk Strong [01:32:27] And God has offered a covenant again to those who desire to be part of his family and to work, to labor, to prepare for the return of Christ. And that is my witness.

John Dehlin [01:32:48] Beautiful.

Kirk Strong [01:32:48] And I invite you, me personally, to look into it.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] Look into the camera. Invite the listeners.

Kirk Strong [01:32:53] Oh, I invite you to it.

John Dehlin [01:32:56] Yeah. Yeah. Bruce writes excellent podcast. Very sincere folks. Wendy writes. What a great and courageous couple. God bless on your journey, and may you someday see the face of the Lord. That's what Wendy says.

Karen Strong [01:33:11] Thank you, Wendy.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] Yeah. So I just want to thank you both for coming on, let you know that you're delightful.

Kirk Strong [01:33:20] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [01:33:21] You're inspiring in many ways, and I think there's so many cool things that I like more about this movement than what I experienced in the church. So I hope you guys are super successful. I hope things don't go south. I hope. I hope people have healthy, happy, positive experiences, and I hope it continues making people happy and bringing joy. So that's my. That's my blessing.

Kirk Strong [01:33:49] Thank you, guys. Thank you. It's been great.

Karen Strong [01:33:52] Thanks for the invitation. I didn't know what to expect, but thoroughly.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] I'm not so bad, right?

Karen Strong [01:33:57] No, you're not so bad.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] I'm not so evil.

Kirk Strong [01:33:59] It was fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] You guys are great.

Kirk Strong [01:34:01] I knew your last questions were going to be the hardest.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] Were they the hardest?

Karen Strong [01:34:04] I can't wait till I get to ask you those questions.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, you can. You can ask. I'll do an interview.

Kirk Strong [01:34:09] It's not that there were answers to everyone. It's that you're like the speedy bullet. Answer this, answer this, Tune in.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Tune in next time where they interview me.

Karen Strong [01:34:17] All right, There you go.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] No, I. I just ran out of time. I'm late for dinner. But just want to thank all my listeners. Thank you for joining us today. A lot of you. We had up to 150 people listening at a single time. We've had probably 10,000 listeners throughout the course of this interview. You stuck with us a long time. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] We want to thank everyone who supports Mormon stories to make it possible. Today was giving. Tuesday, November 28th. There's still time if you appreciate Mormon stories. The Oba Stories foundation and what we do. We really appreciate your support. Donations make this all possible.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] All donations are tax deductible in the US and go towards keeping the podcasts alive and help us support our mission. So please do support us, but it's not priestcraft. And stay tuned for more good stuff. We're gonna interview next week another member of the movement whose wife is a blue blood in Mormonism. And we'll talk about that maybe next time. But we're gonna. We're gonna probably interview a few people about their experiences, hopefully building so that we won't be repeating all the same information but. But kind of building and digging into a few other things that we weren't able to cover today. But thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] Thanks for your support. Thanks to all the listeners who joined us live. Your comments and questions made this a lot more interactive and interesting. You guys all take care. Find joy and goodness out there and we'll see you guys again soon on Mormon stories.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.