Welcome and Open Stories Foundation Updates

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon News Podcast, a feature of Mormon Stories Podcast, at least for now. My name is John Dehlin. I am one of your hosts for today or for Mormon Stories podcast. It is June 21, 2018 and we have as every week sort of presents to us, we have another round of cool stories to be discussing this week. We took last week off, but thanks to the work of Tim Corey and Amy Grubbs and our panelists, we're back for another round of news. There's several topics that we're going to be covering today.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] A lot of news on Donald Trump and the recent announcements about our immigration policy here in the United States, where apparently they're separating children from parents in the process of dealing with illegal immigration. The LDS Church came out with a response on that. We're going to talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] There was some controversy in the past couple weeks as the Provo Freedom Festival denied. Several LGBTQ groups denied their applications to be a part of the parade. So we'll be giving an update on that. The LDS Church has announced a new hymnal, so we're going to be talking about what changes we'd love to see made.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] That's going to be really cool. And then we'd love to hear. Also, there's also some changes recently that have been made just announced in the past day or two around Bishop's interviews. And it looks like the good work of Sam Young is starting to make its way to church headquarters and all the people that support Protect LDS children because the Church is formally changing its policies around children's and interviews. So that's all really good stuff.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] We do these things live so that we can so we can get your questions and feedback as listeners so that we hope that you guys will join us and share your thoughts and questions as you can. There are a few announcements that are relevant, so I'm just going to go into them really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] As you guys know, we do these workshops and retreats regularly to support people in a faith crisis or in a faith transition. These are much needed to help people with their mental health, their depression, their anxiety. We oftentimes try and help keep families together to help with mixed faith marriages.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Sometimes we're even able to help save marriage or even save lives. So if you or someone you know or love are in the middle of a faith crisis or a Mormon faith transition, we have several events coming up to support you. And most importantly, also we have several generous donors who have donated to a scholarship fund.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] So if you can't afford the Full cost of these retreats. All you have to do is email us@staffopenstoriesfoundation.org and you can apply for one of these scholarships and you can attend. Just to quickly name off the events that we have coming. We have Houston, Texas, July 13th through 15th. We have Idaho Falls, August 10th, 11th. We have Portland, Oregon, August 17th through 18th. We have the Bahamas cruise, October 24th through 28th, which is going to be more fun. And we have Sacramento, November 2nd through 3rd. And we're planning some events now for the winter and spring. We hope to do something in Colorado. We have other areas that have shown interest.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] So if you want to host one of these events in your area again, please email us@staffopenstoragefoundation.org and we can. We can plan something in your area again, if you want to apply for a scholarship, you can. But we're just. We're really grateful for these events, and we encourage people to come.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] We have 28 people right now joining us live. And now it's time to introduce our distinguished panelists. So our first panelist, we have back. She's been on the episode several times before. Her name is Juliana Villegas. Juliana, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast and Mormon News podcast.

Julienna Viegas [00:05:05] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Would you mind just introducing yourself to our listeners, those who don't know much about you?

Julienna Viegas [00:05:14] All right, for those who don't know me, my name is Juliana Villegas. I'm joining from Dallas, Texas. Some of you may have listened to my Mormon Stories from back in 2015. I've also written several op eds on different issues in the Salt Lake Tribune, so you'd have to Google my name. Juliana Vieguet Haas. I'm also known to some as the odd Mormon girl on the public Facebook page that I have where I share some opinions at times. So that's me.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Hey, it's great to have you, and we look forward to having you more regularly as possible.

Julienna Viegas [00:05:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Okay. We also have two new guests with us who are appearing for the first time. The first is Sharon Price. You will have known her name from the fact that she is the events coordinator for most of our events, our workshops and retreats. So, Sharon, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. And can you give us a little bit of an introduction?

Sharon Price [00:06:17] Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I live in Lehigh from Utah County, Happy Valley, and am happy to be here and joining you. I don't have a lot of expertise, but I do have strong feelings about the immigration issues and the lgbtq. And I'm an Ally. And I'm just happy to be here to discuss.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Excellent. Well, it's good to have you. We look forward to your participation. And finally, we have Stephanie Labrat. Stephanie, tell us a bit about yourself.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:06:58] Well, I am here in Park City, joining you from Park City, Utah. I'm a parent of four kids, born and raised in Salt Lake. I'm currently working on a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, and I'm an avid LGBT Ally. I have. I'm currently planning a wedding with my daughter, and she will be. She's a lesbian, and she and her girlfriend are going to be getting married this September. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] So this isn't just a theoretical issue for you. This is something you really. No, I think it's kind of near and dear to your heart.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:07:34] It is. I've done some research on LGBT mental health issues, and, yes, this is an issue near and dear to my heart.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Well, we're really excited to have you on for the first time.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:07:47] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] All right, so we've got a lot to cover today, and again, we want to thank those who are joining us on Facebook Live. Daniel, one of our top fans, is with us. James is joining us as well. Matt says, finally, I made it to a live broadcast.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] And Josh and David and Jana. Jana Moffitt's with us. Tracy, all you guys are welcome. Please share your comments and thoughts as they come. So let's start with this immigration issue. It's kind of a really hot topic in the United States right now.

Immigrant Family Separation and Church Response

John Dehlin [00:08:26] My basic understanding of this issue is that we've just learned in the United States that as the United States Immigration Services are trying to handle illegal immigration, they sometimes stumble upon families that are either here or trying to make it across together.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] In that process, I guess the Trump administration has let us know that when they need to, they're separating parents from children. I saw some photos of these cages, I guess, where they're keeping either the parents or the children.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] It's raised a lot of ire on the conservative side. Basically, conservatives seem to be saying, hey, they're acting against the law. They're breaking the law. They know the law, and they shouldn't be coming into this country illegally. We have to deal with them. It's not fit to put children in these prisons for adults, where we need to put the adults. And so they're having to separate adult from child so that the adults can be treated like any adult would be treated who's breaking the law.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] But then the children are in a place that's safe for the children. So conservatives would say this is kind of the way it happens when you break the law. And liberals are going to have their view as well.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] I'm guessing that most of us here on the panel might sway more towards the liberal side. If we do have conservative listeners who want to share maybe some of their perspectives or alternative perspectives, we welcome them. But let's begin by having kind of each panelist share an opening perspective from, let's just say a progressive or a post Mormon perspective. Juliana, do you want to start?

Julienna Viegas [00:10:25] Sure, sure. So I think so. You were saying that conservative and Republican liberal have their different views. But I think the church, as pretty conservative as we know, actually conservative, has had a strong stand on this for many years though, and has, you know, always spoken up about the immigration issue and having problems with the separation of children and the parents. And I think it's because it is one of the landmark or trademark of the church is families. Right. That that's what the church runs by and kind of the image we want families to be together forever.

Julienna Viegas [00:11:08] Now, it's interesting some of the reactions though, with the language that has been used, like if we read from the article in the Salt Lake Tribune, this is the statement they made. So the LDS church is deeply troubled by the aggressive and insensitive treatment of these families.

Julienna Viegas [00:11:28] Some people have kind of interpreted that as why deeply trouble. This is outrageous. Like why not use stronger language? And there is a feeling that there is a need to keep the conservative side not too upset, even though they are going against this ruling here. Which, by the way, you know that as of, I guess today or yesterday, Trump is trying to change the policy, but it's still very chaotic because nothing has been in place for that. But he's trying to change the policy regarding the separation.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Yeah. Juliana. Yeah. Let me go ahead and read the church's statement really quick because I think all that makes sense. Here's the church's statement. It was issued June 18, 2018. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has long expressed its position that immigration reform should strengthen families and keep them together. The forced separation of children from their parents now occurring at the U. S. Mexico border is harmful to families, especially to young children. We are deeply troubled by the aggressive and insensitive treatment of these families. While we recognize the right of all nations to enforce their laws and secure their borders, we encourage our national leaders to take swift action to correct this situation and seek for rational, compassionate solutions.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Now, I just want to say that that almost, I think someone could argue that's kind of a perfect response. Sharon, I know you feel passionately about this issue. Let's bring you in. Do you have anything you want to share about this issue generally? And then I'd love your feedback on the church's response.

Sharon Price [00:13:22] Yeah. Well, first, I think my big issue that I've seen conservatives say that I've done a lot of introspection myself, because before I left the church, I really had no desire to be into politics and issues that didn't concern me.

Sharon Price [00:13:44] And since I've left, I felt this compulsion to get more involved in social issues. And this is one, I guess, that just has hit home to me. I'm glad that the church came out and said that policy, but I'm with Juliana. I just don't think it's strong enough. I think it needs to be condemned. And I think our representatives. You know, I think before this president was elected, I don't think I ever called my representative once, and I've probably called a hundred times or more since, since these issues have come up. And, you know, when I call and I talk to the people, you know, like Senator Lee, Senator Hatch, and Mia Love is my representative, they all say, yeah, they don't agree with it.

Sharon Price [00:14:40] They don't think it's right, and that's great, but they're not doing anything about it. It's fine to write a letter or to, you know, Hatch did some letter this week, but to me, it's just not enough. And when you see babies in cages, I can't even fathom not having compassion. And absolutely, we need to change our immigration laws, and nobody is saying that we should just have open borders and that we should just let people pour in, but there's got to be compassion. And it's a humanitarian crisis, and people all over the world are condemning the United States, and it just. It's just heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

Julienna Viegas [00:15:33] John, if I may interject here, just, you know, playing devil's advocate here a little bit, it does appear that since January, the church had urged Congress to. To act and to protect from deportation of the people and separating from families. So I think they have been politically involved. I do think on this one that the church is really strongly having an opinion that is strong and that is reaching to the decision makers now. Okay, we can come back later when it comes to the LGBTQ issue, where it could be the same, and it's not. But I think one of the reason, again, is because that is one of the trademark of the church families are forever families, you know, and so that's something that they are gonna, you know, join with other faith, other clerics to protect and defend.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Yeah. But I just want to say, are we not happy with this statement? On the one hand, Mormons elected Trump. I think at a rate higher than probably most other states, at least in terms of Utah, Mormons are one of the most conservative, most Republican religious groups in the United States. So from that perspective, yeah, we're all kind of, you know, Mormons are kind of responsible for helping Trump get elected. But having said that, you know, are we not happy with this statement? Let's just say, are we. What are we not happy about? Or could we just say, good job, church. Let's bring you in. Stephanie, are you happy with this statement by the church or not?

Stephanie Lobrot [00:17:30] I think they took just a little too long to get the statement out. I think most religions absolutely had to make a choice, and I'm glad they. I mean, obviously, they. I'm basically happy with it. I think when you had Jeff Sessions standing there using the Bible to defend this treatment of children, I think that kind of language is the very language that drives people away from religion. I think anyone with any sense of empathy is going to say, wait, if this is what religion does, I can't, with a moral compass, be a part of using a Bible to justify this kind of treatment of families and children.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:18:10] So I think religious organizations had an absolute prerogative to step in and say, no, we're not. You know, the Bible does not tell us to separate babies from their mothers. And so I think they absolutely had to do that. Or how do you really sustain religion when that kind of language is being used?

Stephanie Lobrot [00:18:33] I would like to see the church now. They say they don't like to take too much of a political stance on things. You know, they try to stay out of politics. It would be nice if they would take a little bit more of a stand in terms of. I know in 2011, they stated that they support keeping families together, but not necessarily a path to citizenship or amnesty.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:19:01] Maybe having a little bit more along those lines. I do know they. I believe they support daca, but I think when they've got so many members that are affected by immigration policies, it would be nice to see if they could take a little bit of a stronger stand on path to citizenship or those kinds of things. They do. There are some pretty strong Mormon politicians that have spoken out about this immigration well, and we know there are some that are pretty vociferous Trump opposers, like Jeff, Senator Jeff Flake and Mitt Romney and Mia Love is even said, said this is completely unacceptable. So I don't know that this issue, particularly with the separation of families is necessarily a conservative versus liberal. I think it's a little bit more of an extreme Trump based support versus both Republicans and Democrats are on the side opposing it.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Right, right. Okay. Well, any other comments on this topic before we move to the next? Sharon, any final words you want to say?

Sharon Price [00:20:20] Well, I just, I, boy, I could go on and on, but I just feel like that we as American citizens have to absolutely stand up and say this is wrong and whatever that is for us as individuals. There are lots of places you can go online to, to find things, places, things to do. If you feel strongly about it, you can volunteer, you can call your representatives. I know there's a protest on the 30th, I believe at the state capitol and that is, they're doing them all over the country. You can, I mean there's just lots of ways to get involved and, and I think we need to be, if we feel strongly about something, sitting back and just saying, yeah, somebody needs to fix that is not enough. In the day that we're living in, we have to be involved so we have to stand up and speak out.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] I really like that point, Sharon, that for you, this faith, one of the gifts we like to talk about, the gifts of the faith crisis and the benefits, sounds like for you it was becoming a little bit more politically woke, a little bit more politically active. And what I hear from you is a call that progressive and post Mormons become more politically active. Reach out to your senators, your state legislatures, your federal legislatures, do whatever you can to speak out because that's important.

Sharon Price [00:21:59] Yeah. I think in past we've been able to just look at things and say, oh yeah, I don't like that. But I think the world that we're living in, it's beyond that. We really have to stand up and speak out and use our voice.

Sharon Price [00:22:18] We know we can see that that's why Trump came out with his executive order is because of the outcry. And I still don't think it's enough. I mean, if you look at what he signed, you know, they're still going to separate these kids once they're expedited, they've changed it from a misdemeanor to a criminal thing. First offense, crossing the border. And I just for those that maybe feel like this is right and okay, I just, I beg you to think about your own children and your grandchildren and These people are leaving countries where they have no choice.

Sharon Price [00:23:04] And as a parent, I would do whatever it took to protect my kids and my grandkids. And these people are leaving not out of choice, but out of desperation. And then they get here and they're traumatized all over again. And so I could go on and on and on, but all right, we need to get involved.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Okay, thank you, Sharon. Joey writes John, I fall on the conservative libertarian part of the political compass. If you ever want a conservative viewpoint in political issues, I'd be happy to help. Joey, I'll make sure Tim writes you down as a potential panelist, but that's why we do these live streams. So please text your comment right now about the church's statement and I would read it.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] So that's what we want to encourage all of you listeners who are listening live to do is to share your comments and questions and then we'll read them and we'll also bring people on as we can. I do think the church. Joey, your point is important. I think that the church has to walk a fine line here because the church can lose its liberal and progressive members if it doesn't act in the right way. But I know that the church is also taking some heat from, from conservatives, basically saying the church is wrong on this immigration issue and the church has to worry about not alienating its more fundamentalist or conservative sort of members as well.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] So I wish I had quotes from active, faithful Mormons here sharing some of their concerns about the church's statement. But if any of you want to represent that point of view, we're reading all comments and we're sharing them. A couple other quick comments from our listeners. Pauline writes, I feel like it's just a statement and the church has the plans to actually help the situation. So Pauline's wanting the church to do more.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] The Catholic Church does have a tradition of being more politically active and other religious traditions do too, like the Unitarians. That would be interesting to see the Mormon Church become more politically active on issues like this, on the environment, on immigration, on whatever issues that it cares more about. Lately it's felt like the only issue the church cares about is attacking same sex marriage and LGBTQ rights. So I feel a little bit refreshed that the church actually isn't only monotone.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] And frankly, as a progressive, personally, I'm happy to see the church come out on more what I believe is the right side of the issue, on the side of Christianity, on the side of humanity, even if the church has more than it can do, man, baby steps for me. I'm happy to see the church make this step.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] Jules writes, instead of a zero tolerance towards the misdemeanor of families and children looking for a better life, why not zero tolerance on corruption and treason? I don't know if he's referring to the LDS Church and their advocacy or the Trump administration cracking down on other priorities like corruption and treason. I imagine that's what he means. And then Kara writes, actually, Peter writes, how do we contrast this statement with the fact that the church has never apologized for the Indian placement program? And that's a really good point. Mormon leaks just released today, an internal memo evaluation from, I believe, the early 80s, where the church did an internal evaluation of the Indian placement program.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] We're hoping to bring Hiram, Joe Cam, and Sarah Newcomb potentially with our other expert on Native American issues. And his name is. His name is Thomas Murphy. We hope to bring them back to discuss that recent Mormon leaks in an upcoming episode. All right, so, Julieta, any final thoughts on this issue you want to share?

Julienna Viegas [00:27:14] Well, I do agree with Sharon that, I mean, it's good to talk about your outrage and all the things that aren't right. And I mean to show that you disagree with what's happening, but it's more important to do something. And as I'm, you know, think about it, the church could also, I mean, if you looked at the station where those kids are, it's hot. They don't have a lot. Like, I think the church has enough to give and to relieve the pain if they feel so strongly about the issue.

Julienna Viegas [00:27:48] There is actions, practical actions that can be taken to relieve the pain and to relieve these children that are suffering. Another thing is, it's amazing. I mean, I'm from Belgium. I was born and raised there. And so my family in Belgium and all around, I mean, they are posting on their Facebook pages, and of course, they're being fed by the media, but there's no smoke without fire. But they're just appalled that these kind of things are happening right here in the US A developed Western country that looks like, you know, like things that happen in countries that are not so developed. And so, I mean, the image is just taking a lot of shots right now, Like, I mean, continues under this administration, because it's not like, you know, it's like every week something new.

Julienna Viegas [00:28:40] But this is just, you know, and I do agree that it's bipartisan. I think the outrage crosses, you know, political views. Like, I mean, it's just outrageous what's happening.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:28:51] Can I add to that, please?

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Stephanie, go ahead and we'll close this issue with your thoughts.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:28:55] Okay. As you mentioned, I think people across the world are stunned looking at, I mean, the United States. What we are so proud of and what we are known for is our record of human rights and our, the way we don't dehumanize people.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:29:12] I just had to mention Tuesday Trump, you know, granted, he's reversed his policy, but I think we need to really watch the language around what's being used around immigration. When Trump put out a Twitter on Tuesday, he used the word immigrants are infesting the United States. I don't think we can allow our leaders to use words like that. I think we need to call them out. That is making human beings akin to insects. I mean, you know, when you use the word, they're infesting. So I think we need to, like Sharon said, call our representatives and say, we will not tolerate this, but we won't.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:29:50] We also won't tolerate dehumanization of anybody. We're a human, we're a country of human rights and that's our reputation and we need to uphold that.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] All right, all right. Well, that's great.

Julienna Viegas [00:30:04] Forgetting that his wife is one of them immigrants.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:30:06] Exactly.

Julienna Viegas [00:30:07] And many of you know, many people, people's ancestors here. So it is very shocking. And yeah, yeah, again, we could go on with that forever.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] So, yeah, but this is the Mormon News podcast. We have to keep it focused on the Mormon news. So Joe, you know, any of our listeners, if you have other perspectives on the Mormon Church's response to this issue, we'd love to hear it. So Joey, you're sharing political perspectives generally, but I'm specifically interested in your thoughts as a Mormon on the LDS churches. So share with you. Share if you can. All right, it's time to move to the next topic. And the next topic is the Provo Freedom Festival. So last we checked in, several LGBT themed groups in Provo had applied to be a part of the Provo Freedom Festival parade.

LGBT Groups Accepted Into Provo Freedom Festival Parade

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Fourth of July parade that happens every year. Some of these groups included Equality Included pflag, the Provo pflag, Provo Pride, Mormons Building Bridges, and the Encircle House that we have particular affinity for. And I think there were a couple other groups as well.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] All were originally declined their applications after the city of Provo and the Freedom Festival had signed some non discrimination agreement. People were shocked that after signing that agreement that the Freedom Festival and provost still went ahead and denied those applications. But they did invite the applicants to Reapply, and apparently these organizations did reapply, and I guess it's a compromise was reached. And so six days ago, June 14 or so, it was announced that they're basically putting all the LGBT themed organizations, five of them at least, into a single float in the parade.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Kendall Wilcox of Mormons Building Bridges says that this is a huge sign of good faith and goodwill. He says it's a slight miracle, or even a big miracle, frankly, he's really happy with the compromise. Stephanie Larsen wrote, I couldn't tell if it was a little bit sarcastic.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] She wrote, they want it more patriotic. So I think we're adding flags. Larsen said, our only goal is to get to the parade and to celebrate freedom with the community. I wasn't sure if that was a subtle dig from Stephanie. It's like, oh, being an LGBTQ person, you know, the Mormon missionaries have marched in that parade for, like, 20 years. There's no, like, immediate patriotic association between Mormon missionaries, but their floats have never been rejected. So Stephanie says, maybe our answer is to add more flags, and that'll get the LGBT groups in. So, Stephanie, you have a particular stake in this because you have a.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] As you've said, a lesbian daughter who's getting married soon. Do you want to share your perspective on this whole hubbub? And also, listeners, please share your comments and questions, and we'll read them on the air.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:33:38] Well, one thing I do know that after the LGBT groups were denied access to the. To marching in the parade, there were cries for the tax funding that they had received that the Provo Pride Festival had received to be withdrawn both from

John Dehlin [00:33:56] the city, both from the city of Provo and Utah County. And I was really happy to see both the Provo mayor and I should read her name, but I don't have it with me. And the Utah county commissioner both basically threaten or at least express deep concern. They expressed objection to the original decision, and they started to threaten about pulling their funding. Keep going, Stephanie. I didn't mean to interrupt.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:34:22] Yeah, well, I was surprised with that too. And even Orrin Hatch made a statement in support of allowing these groups to march, which made me realize we have come a long way. Lgt LGBT groups are no longer, I think, on the fringe and rightfully so. They have worked hard, and I think they deserved, you know, the things they deserve to have some recognition and to honor how far they have come and how far they've worked for to have equal rights.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:34:53] One of the things I have heard people say is, why do. Why do LGBT people need to march? In a parade. Why not have a straight. You know, why not recognize straight pride and straight parade? I'm sure some of you have heard that, and I feel like that kind of negates the fight for equality that they've been having. And so I do think, especially in Provo, of all places, this is an important place where LGBT people, for them to finally be visible, finally be able to live proudly and openly and visibly without.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:35:31] And they're taking a risk. This is. You know, they have been brave. This is a scary thing. And it's not. It's. It's acknowledging that people can finally live openly and honestly despite the challenge that they have faced in the past. So I think they have a tremendous amount of resilience, and. And that's very much a part of the American story, and that should be celebrated.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] I love it. Sharon, what do you want to add?

Sharon Price [00:35:59] Well, I just agree with Stephanie. I think it's interesting that they were willing to compromise once they realized they may lose their funding. And so I was really proud of the mayor, and I can't remember her name. I think it's Mo with Michelle or something. And then Nathan Ivy, I noticed, had a statement about it as well. And I'm just proud that they were willing to speak out. And I think that we should all take our pride flags and join down there and, you know, let the Freedom Festival know that. That we're not going away, that these people, we're all supportive, and the more rainbow flags we have down there, the better.

Julienna Viegas [00:36:54] Yes. I love that idea.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] I love it. Yeah, we have to just always call attention to the fact that Utah, the top leading cause of death of teens and young adults in Utah is suicide. We know that LGBT stuff is at the core of many of those sort of suicide attempts, suicidal ideation, et cetera. And so having cities and counties or city and county tax dollars go towards public events that openly reject an entire group of people, that's just bad government, and it's irresponsible, and it's. We don't want to do. You know, it's one thing if we can't control the Mormon Church and get them to be more LGBT affirming, but certainly we don't need to do actions that contribute to the problem of LGBT youth feeling discriminated against and marginalized. Juliana, what do you want to say about this news topic?

Julienna Viegas [00:37:57] So I think it was interesting to read the reactions, you know, from the people there on the ground who. Who fought for that, I mean, who were, of course, shocked and very, very disappointed. That all were excluded. So maybe. I don't know if I want to say the names, but this is from the Herald. But one reaction is, please just rename it the festival.

Julienna Viegas [00:38:21] Calling it the Freedom Festival is just a cruel joke. Another one says, I want to hear what they have to say. I doubt it will be any good though. This is a sad day for Provo. Someone said my family will not be participating in the Freedom Festival or the parade this year. My son is being raised to respect people so he will understand why we cannot go. Why we cannot go. It is very disappointing that some closed minded people ruin it for everyone and good job Utah County.

Julienna Viegas [00:38:54] And again, what you said, John, like here it says, and people wonder why Utah ranks number five in suicides. Shame, exclusion, rejection. This is not helping. Now a different tone here is someone saying, I don't know what to feel about these applications being rejected, but I feel that Larsen from Encircle has chosen to have a breakfast July 4th for anyone who wants to attend. This world thinks that everyone needs a participation trophy and everyone has to be accepted in everything. That's not how the real world works. Works instead of causing more conflict and Circle decided to move on.

Julienna Viegas [00:39:33] One point I would, you know, kind of push back here a little bit. Is that, sure, the world doesn't work like that, but we need to push the world in the right direction always and not accept what is not acceptable. So I love it.

John Dehlin [00:39:51] Yeah. Well, our listeners are weighing in on this topic. Let's see. John writes, I lived in Utah county and Provo for 22 years and never knew an LGBTQ individual that you knew of, John. I still think it's fringe in Utah county, but glad that progress is being made. We're really grateful to PFLAG and Encircle that are making this a prominent issue in Utah county where it's needed the most.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Carla writes, let the church use some of their 32 billion in dollars. It's actually hundreds of billions of dollars, Carla, in stocks and real estate investments, et cetera, to build safe zones in their country, in the countries, kept them from their own countries. I don't know what she's saying there. Send in the missionaries. Get more converts. Carla, I'm not sure what you're saying there, but thanks for shining in, for tuning in. Peter writes, I'm Canadian and this whole thing is beyond bizarre to me. Is Provo really as much of a theocracy as it seems?

John Dehlin [00:40:58] The answer, Peter, is yeah. Religion has a very tight control not only on city and county governments in Utah, but Also at the state level. So yes, the answer is yes. Peter writes, will all missionaries be combined into a single float? Because what do missionaries have to do with freedom? That was the argument against the LGBT application. So again, great comments, Peter, from those listening. All right, so but we are, I think we all should acknowledge good when it happens. And it's good that the city and county councils and the Provofita Festival were able to compromise. And I hope that the LGBTQ themed parade gets the loudest cheers.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] And I hope that all of you from Utah who care about these sorts of issues will support the parade and shout loudest for the LGBTQ themed float in the parade. All right, so the next topic that we have really quickly is the church announcing new guidelines for interviews.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] We can post in our links, sort of the PDF that the church made available. Announcing the guidelines. Oh, Heather is writing us and Heather says the missionaries were denied entry. That's interesting. Heather also writes. This is Heather de Klerk Kester, Savannah's mom. Thanks for joining us, Heather. Heather also writes PFLAG and Provo Pride will be entering together. Mormons building bridges will be entering alone. That's a good development. Encircle is embedding the is embedding the pre parade Queerman meals and will be cheering us in from the sides with all the rainbow flags. The ones allowed in the parade are allowed to only wear red, white and blue.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] No rainbows. So we've got rainbows forbidden from this parade. That's good feedback, Heather. That's fascinating. And does that mean that Encircle won't be in a float? I'm wondering about that. But that's also interesting that the missionaries were denied entry. If that's true, my understanding is this will be the first time in 20 years then that the missionaries weren't marching. But I could be wrong.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Heather says that to be clear, they never apply but are asked to march. But this year they were asked to volunteer. So it sounds like. All right, well, Heather's given us the latest on the ground in Provost, so we're grateful to have that.

New LDS Church Guidelines for Youth Interviews

John Dehlin [00:43:41] All right, so switching topics now. You know, we've covered the great work of Sam Young and protect LDS children here on Mormon Stories for months now. And this was a big week because on Mormon Newsroom, the LDS Church announced the First Presidency releasing new guidelines for interviewing youth. And I don't these are things that have been referenced previously.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] So this isn't going to be totally news to many of you. I'll just kind of give my quick assessment of some of the guidelines. Basically it's making it an option explicitly for youth who desire to have a parent involved in the interviews. That's explicitly now part of the policy.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] It's making sure that if children or young women are alone with men, with male leaders being interviewed, that there's some sort of leader adjacent to make sure that abuse can be minimized. This statement does list a bunch of statements regarding what the purpose of the interviews is or are.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] And it's basically around having a positive experience to inspire and lead the youth. I think that's an attempt to sort of make sure leaders know that there's a very positive tone set instead of it being some sort of negative grilling.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] The frequency of the interviews is kind of once a year, twice a year at the most. And so yeah, it gives a list of questions that can be asked. And the one regard, there's nothing around masturbation, but it does says, do you live the law of chastity?

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Which is good. So again, we have the church responding to, directly responding to social pressure. There are a lot of progressives and liberals that complain that we can't ever be activists in Mormonism because if we do, the church will retrench and recoil. But what we're seeing in the past five years is activists are making a direct impact on Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So why don't we have shared. You begin. Do you have any thoughts on. Have you had a chance to read over the new policy changes and if so, what reactions do you have?

Sharon Price [00:46:06] Yes, I did read it and I think we have to cheer every baby step that comes. I think it's definitely based on the outcry that Sam started and calls for change. So I'm really happy to see them come out with a change. I think it needs to go farther than it did. I think just having somebody in the other room by you does not fix the problem of kids in there by themselves. So I think we need to continue with the fight on that.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] And the one thing, well, what's inadequate about having somebody next door?

Sharon Price [00:46:57] If you've got a 12 year old girl in there and the bishop says something that's inappropriate, I can promise you that nine times out of ten they are not going to jump up and go out and say, hey, Wade, you know, the bishop is saying inappropriate stuff or asking me, you know, inappropriate, it just, it's not going to happen because the bishop is revered as their spiritual leader. And so to say that it's okay and that's going to solve the problem I think is just a little naive.

Sharon Price [00:47:34] And doesn't solve that problem or that issue. The other thing that really struck me at the very last sentence in the release, it says leaders should avoid all circumstances that could be misunderstood. And I get what they're trying to say, but to me, that puts the responsibility on a victim.

Sharon Price [00:48:06] That maybe they just misunderstood what was said. Or to me, that's just victim shaming. I think. I think the wording is wrong in that, and maybe I'm wrong with that. But I just. That really, I didn't like that at all. So that was my two initial responses.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] Yeah, I think it's worth noting we had Stephen Hassan, who's a cult expert, and one of the clear signs of a cult is using worthiness interviews or private one on one interviews in a way to manipulate or pressure or extort or shame its members or to humiliate its members. And so I think, to your point, Sharon, having an adult in the next room number one, doesn't alleviate the potential shaming that can go on. But I think Sam said in the past that it's grooming activity to make it so a child even feels comfortable being alone in a room with an adult talking about sexual matters.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] And so that's going to be grooming behavior. Even if, you know, just making a child think that it's okay for an adult to ask them sexually explicit questions is going to be grooming behavior, even if the adult doesn't physically sexually assault the child. Why don't we bring you in, Juliana? What are your thoughts on the church's statement?

Julienna Viegas [00:49:34] Just like you said at the beginning, I think it really goes to show that being an activist within the church or outside, or pointing out to the things that are wrong and pushing to have change will eventually, you know, help make that change happen. And we shouldn't be quiet. Of course. There is always room for improvement.

Julienna Viegas [00:50:01] Yeah. I mean, when I think about, you know, growing up, having all these interviews, I mean, personally, I never had anything really. At least at the time, I didn't think it was inappropriate. And I had, I guess, good bishops. I didn't have bishops that were creepy or whatever. But when you think about that, it really trains you to implicitly trust someone who's not even qualified to advise you on so many different things. But you start that from a young age and it seems natural for you to be there. So I still have issue with the whole thing anyways. But, yeah, but like, you know, like you said, baby, progress is better than nothing. It makes me cringe today.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] I love it. Okay, well, thanks, Juliana. How about you, Stephanie, you want to add anything?

Stephanie Lobrot [00:50:58] Sure. I still think interviews are problematic. I'm glad there's more of a script, and I'm glad kids won't be necessarily surprised going in. I mean, they'll have some idea of questions, but it still leaves it a little bit open for bishops to go off script. And my biggest concern is I feel like young people maybe aren't learning appropriate boundaries. And to me, these interviews, it's about boundaries. We need to teach kids that there are boundaries of people and things that they can discuss with people if they choose or not discuss with people if they choose. That's such an important part of, you know, psychological development is learning to put your foot down and set your own boundaries.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:51:48] So I feel like the interviews kind of go contrary to that. Yeah. And the fact that bishops are not necessarily professionally trained. They're there for a few years and I'm sure they get a lot of experience while they're there, but they haven't had the professional training. So, you know, for a young girl, maybe she's 16, four years later, you know, he may be your bishop now, but four years later he's the guy down the street. Is that someone you want to have discussed intimate things with? You know, that. That can be very problematic, very traumatic for both young men and women. So those are my thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Love it. I love the way Sam summarized it. He's basically said no one on one interviews ever. No sexually explicit questions.

Julienna Viegas [00:52:37] Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. There is also other format that could be. I mean, take those things away. But like, what's wrong with just like a. Some kind of group interview, quote unquote, and they write down their answer and it doesn't involve, you know, one youth being alone with an adult. You know, you could. You could. There's different ways to, you know, put it so that it's not. It doesn't look so creepy, Right?

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Absolutely. Okay. Oh, and also, I just think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, they're trying to accommodate girls. But. So girls don't have, you know, girls always have someone in the next room. But. But boys can be abused just like girls can. So why. Why have a gender difference there? It should be just humans, right?

Julienna Viegas [00:53:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] It shouldn't be just children. It shouldn't be just girls. It should be humans. It shouldn't be. Adults can be abused too. Right. So this one on one interview practice has to stop for a number of reasons, let alone just the basic concern about basically people's worthiness being tied to Matters of sexuality. We've seen the church get it wrong on oral sex, on masturbation, on LGBTQ kind of issues. We now know that in many ways, sometimes it may be healthy to have premarital sex so that you know yourself and that you know your partner and you know who you're marrying and what you're getting into. And so the church has sort of got it so wrong in so many ways with the LGBT kind of issues. They just kind of need to get out of the talking about sex business, I think.

Julienna Viegas [00:54:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Any disagreements in the group?

Julienna Viegas [00:54:42] No.

LDS Hymn Book Changes and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:54:43] All right. Okay. Well, the final kind of topic that we have to talk about today is this issue of the church changing its hymn book. I remember. I'm old enough to remember when the church came up, when the church had its older hymn book. In fact, I've opened up some of the original hymn books of the church, and actually, one small crack in my testimony came when I read one of the earliest editions of the church's hymnbook. It had a hymn called oh, Stop and Tell Me Red man, which was some hymn to the Native Americans, and the title actually said Red Man. But also, another thing I remember is, of course, in what's the hymn? Hail to the Prophet, Ascended to Heaven. What's the name of that hymn?

Julienna Viegas [00:55:44] Praise to the Man.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Praise to the Man. Yeah. In the original version of the hymn, Praise to the man, instead of the verse that says, long will his blood, which was shed by assassins, plead unto heaven, in the original hymn book of the church, the hymn actually said, long will his blood, which was shed by assassins, stain Illinois.

Julienna Viegas [00:56:10] Oh, wow. That's very specific.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] It actually called out Illinois. And, of course, the earlier hymn books had. There's some really beloved hymns that were removed, that were a little more progressive. But before I infect this conversation anymore, Juliana, are there any changes you'd love to see in the hymn book?

Julienna Viegas [00:56:38] Well, you know, I don't go to church, and I don't sing anymore, so it doesn't really matter to me. But it would be good for the church to either. I mean, for me, it's like the kind of the nationalist hymns that always bothered me. I mean, I guess we didn't sing them, but if you go from country to country, you know, the English hymn books will be like this, and then other countries will be, like, half the size because they take out, you know, all the national hymns, or I guess they have implemented, like, countries own their own national hymns inside of the hymn book as well. I'm not sure I haven't visited it for a while. So I don't know. There's just too many things I would disagree with. But again, I don't go to.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] So from a multicultural, international perspective, you're saying get rid of the, you know, the national anthem or whatever, the patriotic hymns in the United States?

Julienna Viegas [00:57:43] Well, I wouldn't say. I don't know. Like, I mean, as long as each country has their own. But then if you're like a foreigner, I guess if you go to church here, I don't know, like, I may be the wrong person to ask. And mine would be more like, maybe doctrinal stuff that I disagree with.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] But are there any hymns that come to mind or. Nothing that comes to mind.

Julienna Viegas [00:58:06] Well, that priest. The man is one.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas [00:58:09] I think the man should praise God.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] I think that's summarily hated. Yeah.

Julienna Viegas [00:58:15] You know, if you're gonna believe like that, that's just. And then they wonder why, you know, the rest of the world, like, oh, you are Joseph Smith worshipper. And then they deny it. But then you have a hymn like that, which is clearly worshipping a man. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Yeah.

Julienna Viegas [00:58:32] I don't know what they'll do. Maybe they'll change the words to that one.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] Okay, cool. All right, Stephanie, what would you like to see changed in the hymn book?

Stephanie Lobrot [00:58:42] Well, along the same lines, I don't love the military songs. Behold a Royal army, or. I don't know, those have never been my favorite. I would love to see them retain some of the real classics that, you know, where the music was written by Bach and Mendelssohn. There's some really beautiful hymns in there.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:59:03] And for me, that was. Oh, my goodness, the music, the singing of the hymns, that was my spirit, spiritual connection, you know that. So I think that's a really powerful part of church for. For a lot of people.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:59:16] But I would love to see them add some music in there that is not the traditional four part hymn, because that. That has roots and that's very European and the church is global now. They. You know, I would love to see a completely different style of music than the four part hymn. That liturgical hymn that's come, you know, down through the Catholic Church and the different Protestant church. Let's see, something from Latin America. Completely different. Wouldn't that be kind of fun?

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Yeah, absolutely.

Julienna Viegas [00:59:47] You're asking for a lot there.

Stephanie Lobrot [00:59:49] I know, I know. But, man, I have some fun again.

Julienna Viegas [00:59:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] All right, Sharon, any. Any suggestions you have for the hymn book?

Sharon Price [00:59:59] I have no musical talent or abilities whatsoever, but I'm like, stuff. Stephanie, that was one of the things that really I loved is singing the hymns and enjoying the musical numbers in church. I don't know that much about the hymn book and the changes. I've been out long enough that, gosh, I don't, you know, whatever they choose to do. But one of the things that I think is interesting is the rules that they play on certain musical instruments that you can have in a. In a sacrament service. I know in. In times past, you know, there were rules against guitars and certain things, and I just don't see. I mean, I'd love to see some of that. That change. Just like Stephanie said, with some. Some more upbeat fun, you know, you can have a spiritual experience with a guitar. So that's the only thing I, I would say. I don't know.

Julienna Viegas [01:01:06] Absolutely spice it up a little. Maybe Gladys Knight will help infuse something. Maybe she's on the. On the music, you know, committee.

Stephanie Lobrot [01:01:18] Wouldn't you love to see some Latin rhythm in there?

Sharon Price [01:01:20] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:24] Yeah, I love it. All right, well, this has been a, you know, we're up on. We're up on a bit of an hour. Had a few technical glitches, but it's always good to kind of review the news. And so I just want to thank all of you panelists for joining us today and thank all of our livestream and asynchronous listeners and viewers who are able to join us afterwards. We hope everyone's liking this format of Mormon news.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] We would love to get feedback if people want us to keep doing this. It's not something we have to do. It's just something that we think might be a valuable service that isn't, provided we have goals of the future, of trying to always have diverse panelists. We are looking for conservatives. We are looking for believers. We are looking for different groups to be represented, both from our audience and just from whatever the topics are at hand.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] So if any of you are listening and like this format and want to be a part of it in any way, we encourage you to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and let us know, and we'll either bring you on or read your comments or incorporate your feedback. But I guess I want to give each of our listeners a chance to give kind of a final statement. They can. They can share a thought. They can share a happy thing, a sad thing. They can share something. They'd like to see change. They can encourage our audience to act in some way. So let's start with you, Sharon. What would you like to share with our audience? As we close out and as we. Thank you for joining us.

Sharon Price [01:03:05] Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be on today and I think I'll just reiterate what I said earlier. We can with the policy of the church changing the interviews and we can see with our voices, with the immigration that speaking out in loud voices can affect change. And so that's what I would just say to everyone listening and as you watch this, that if you feel strongly about something, whether it's LGBTQ issues, whether it's interviews in LDS church, whether it's immigration, whatever it is that you feel strongly about, that you speak out and become an advocate for that. Because sometimes it can get pretty overwhelming and the only thing that can change that is by doing our part.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] I love it. Thank you, Sharon. It's fun to have you on Mormon Stories. Thanks for joining us.

Sharon Price [01:04:12] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Alright, Stephanie, you want to give us a thought?

Stephanie Lobrot [01:04:17] Well, just thank you for letting me join in the conversation. This has been fun. Love to cover the news. I just would echo what Sharon said. It's wonderful to see. It's baby steps. But all of what we've been talking about is news change in the right direction. I think so, yeah. Keep letting your voice be heard.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] I love it. All right. And Juliana, we're always glad to have you join us. Thanks for, for being more of a regular panelist. Any final thoughts you want to share with us?

Julienna Viegas [01:04:47] Thank you for having me, John. Just, I mean, I've said it before, like, I don't know how many people are listening that are maybe more conservative or still in the church. But I just to want, want to encourage people to speak up, speak their mind when they don't feel comfortable about something they see or hear, whether is in a small conversation or whether it's in a group to just be brave enough to point it out. Because that's how change happens. It's by opening your mouth and then taking action. So I just want to encourage everyone out there to, you know, be that voice if they can, because it can change someone's life.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] All right, well, I'll just say thanks to our panelists. It's great to have you. Thanks to Tim Corey and Amy Grubbs for helping produce this episode. Thanks to Cody Layton for his audio video editing whenever he does. Although I think Tim's gonna edit this one.

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John Dehlin [01:06:38] It'll make a big difference. All right, everyone, thanks again for joining us. You guys are awesome. We love you. And listeners, thanks for joining us. Please tune in again soon for another Mormon Stories podcast and another Mormon News podcast episode soon. Take care everybody.

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