Paul H. Dunn is one of the most beloved General Authorities in the history of the Mormon church. His vast popularity was based on his uncanny ability to tell gripping stories in General Conference, in firesides, in over a dozen books, and on cassette tapes about his time as a professional baseball player with the St. Louis Cardinals, and about his career as a combat veteran in World War II.
The only problems were:
1) Paul Dunn made up these stories. They were literally untrue.
2) Paul Dunn made a great deal of money, and drew his fame from these false stories.
3) Paul Dunn used his fame/reputation to advance fraudulent business schemes.
Even more disturbing, however, were the lengths and breadths that the Mormon church went to, to suppress, cover-up, and kill this story – using its vast financial and legal resources.
This story only came to light because of one courageous Mormon journalist – Lynn Kenneth Packer – who coincidentally was the nephew of super powerful/influential Mormon apostle Boyd K. Packer.
In the end, Lynn Packer was fired from his job as a BYU professor for his involvement in investigating and breaking the Paul H. Dunn story. And while this story was minimally covered in an Arizona newspaper and in Sunstone magazine at the time, TO THIS DAY Lynn Packer has never been granted an extensive media interview to tell this story.
Until today that is.
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Starting at about 2:39:54, Lynn Packer explains that Paul Dunn told friends that Thomas Monson also embellished stories, and Lynn goes on to explain one example in which Lynn (when working at KSL) got the conference talks in advance, and in 1975, Monson had a dramatic moment where Monson says he feels prompted to divert from his prepared text to talk directly to someone in the audience. But the prepared remarks included that language about feeling prompted.
Lynn: Did the prepared remarks also include (1) both the statement that Monson felt prompted to divert from his prepared remarks **and** the diversion including the description of the person(s) in the audience and the message(s) for them OR (2) just the statement that Monson felt prompted to divert from his prepared remarks?
Dunn war stories audios were played in priesthood in a military branch in 2007. The branch was for new recruits, and in 2007 most if not all of us were bound for Iraq or Afghanistan in coming months. I was still a believer with only a dim idea that the stories had been recalled years before. But even then I realized it was bogus to hold real military recruits to a fictional and worse, unrealistic and fantastic “standard” of heroism. I objected to the instructor but he kinda told me off. I even paid for an online subscription to Church News just to reference Dunn’s faint apology 15 years earlier. I don’t know if they kept playing the audio stories, but some number of LDS recruits in 2007, at least, were taught Paul H. Dunn war stories right before combat zone tours.
John & Lynn:
Lynn suggested in this episode that, at least based on statements towards the end of Dunn’s life, that Dunn was not a believer / Biblical literalist. It was not clear to me whether Lynn thought that Dunn’s disbelief arose after Dunn’s ministry or whether Dunn’s disbelief was there all along.
It occurs to me that Paul Dunn — given his formal religious training at Chapman University — could have known all along that the Bible was full of mythical stories. Would have Dunn’s education included higher criticism and related concepts (which would have debunked a fundamentalist view of scripture)? Or was Dunn’s education presented from a fundamentalist/literalist view of the Bible?
In other words, it may be that Dunn knew from the very start of his LDS ministry that the Bible was filled with myth and pseudepigrapha, which Dunn could have used to justify his own myth-making. After all, if Dunn knew that multiple authors in the New Testament wrote in the name of Paul, knew that Adam/Eve were myth, knew that Joseph Smith had created his own pseudepigrapha, etc, Dunn probably could have felt justified in making his own myths.
The question to me is whether Dunn was a pious fraud (that is, Dunn believed he was doing good for others and wanted to do good for others) or just a fraud (that is, he couldn’t care less about others and was only self-interested). Lynn certainly seemed to think Dunn was just the latter. I just purchased Lynn’s “Lying for the Lord” book for my Kindle and am eager to see whether Dunn comes out looking like a pious fraud or just a fraud.
RFM recently interviewed Philip McLemore (Episode 204) in which Philip shared some of his experiences with Paul Dunn. I think it would be interesting if you could get another crossover episode with RFM to have Philip and Lynn delve more into their experiences with Paul Dunn, which might shed some light onto Dunn’s state of belief/mind.
That would be super fun.
I’ve very much enjoyed this series. It’s been fascinating. I applaud his integrity. He looks a little like my dad, and he definitely has my dad’s mannerisms. I lost dad in 2013. Wondering if Lynn would adopt me. 🙂
Dunn definitely delivered value for one’s religious entertainment dollar. Not so much so far as religious truth goes.
Agreed. Now, that we know they’re all greedy duplicitous conartists, atleast Dunn made it FUN!
Interesting! Lynn Packer, nephew of former President of the Quorum of the Twelve, Boyd K. Packer, aka “Darth Vader,” to progressives who champion truth, describes his very one sided attack on his uncle’s rival.
Throughout the interview Packer equivocates, and is short on remembering just what he wrote in his own book. Perhaps before leveling critical accusations against the former 70, he should have reviewed it. Calling Paul Dunn an “inept Mark Hoffman”, a known murderer, says more about Lynn Packer than anyone else.
The podcast tone encouraged listeners to accept Packer’s unverified statement against Dunn as further evidence of the church acting out of moral compromise. With little else than Dunn’s own admission, the evidence in making this connection appears speculative.
Packer would have us believe Dunn’s apology was insincere, but having read it I would suggest otherwise. I’m not aware of any other incident where a church leader has made such an open and full apology, disclosing genuine remorse, asking forgiveness of any whom he offended. He openly accepted being censored by the General Authorities as well as the penalty they imposed, which in effect was disfellowship. He also pleaded for understanding from all other church members.
Packer’s disdain for Dunn continued even after his death, in the bitter and callus way he attended his funeral. Packer shows himself to be an individual lacking compassion.
In verifying critical information it’s always worthwhile to fact check from multiple sources. It has definitely helped me resolve my concerns and doubts.
Some have said that Packer did have an ulterior motive as he was determined to make a name for himself and that this back fired on him, creating issues he didn’t anticipate. He allowed himself to get emotionally caught up with bias and vendetta.
There is definitely truth to the story not found here, including the caring, enthusiastic, down to earth nature of the man Paul Dunn. He lived the parables Jesus told and determined to center such motivational stories around himself as was revealed in their mission conferences. My father served in the Fresno Mission under three presidents. He drove in the car with Elder Dunn who was a spirited and loving guest at my mother’s dinner table.
Bottom line, Dunn got caught up self-engrandizing, with his tall tales which made him the most motivational speaker since Joseph Smith, who had a very similar talent. He then made a sincere and contrite public apology, paid a price in penitance and penalty by way of church heirarchy, and determined that he would live so as to bring added respect to the cause he loved and to honor to the Lord.
May he rest in peace.
Go pound sand. Dunn was and still is a malignancy on the Mormon church. I am not a Mormon but loved his stories they were inspiring until I realized he was a storyteller like Falstaff or Baron Munchausen. He was a BS artist of the first degree how totally sad to be caught up in multiple lies so deep so you can never tell the truth.
I served under Presidents Boyd K. Packer and Paul H. Dunn in the New England States Mission from 67 to 69. The experience as a young, believing Mormon was amazing. I want to share a story that I heard Paul Dunn tell in a zone leaders leadership meeting. Paul Dunn always gave the closing remarks before sending us on our way to return to our respective zones.
He got up and began to tell us about a “Thursday” general authority meeting he had in the Salt Lake Temple. He stated that while one of the “Brethren” was making a presentation, President McKay interrupted him and said, “Brethren, the Prophet Joseph Smith has just joined us in this meeting.” The elder (not identified by Dunn) continued with his presentation. A few minutes later, Dunn stated that President McKay again interrupted and said, “Brethren, all of the prophets since Joseph Smith have now joined us.” The elder again continued with his presentation. A few minutes later, President McKay again interrupted the presentation and said, “Brethren, the Lord has just joined us.”
The feeling I had at the time was beyond any earthly words could describe. I was in the presence of a man who had been in the same room with Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior (Dunn did not say if he actually saw Jesus but, nevertheless, Jesus Christ was actually there in his presence). The experience was so sacred that I only shared the story with my wife; it was when we were in the Celestial Room of the Salt Lake Temple.
Of course, I now know that that story is false and is just one of thousands of stories that have been told by Church leaders, ad nauseam, to convince the world of the truthfulness of the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But, at the time, I believed that I had been given a very sacred and special witness of Jesus Christ and of the restoration of the Church.
The Church of Cheeses Crust of Rattleday Snakes is the name i gave it. I’d joined it in high school, went on a mission, only member in my family, married in the temple…. on and on and on. Leaving the church was the best decision i ever made. A bunch of fairy stories and liars
Also, I noticed that Lynn took the power away from these General Authorities just by NOT using their middle initial. I mean, when you say, “Paul Dunn”, “Boyd Packer”, etc. it makes them sound … normal. Like the rest of us. I never realized what using that middle initial did (for me, at least) to elevate people in authority. MIND BLOWN!
As a daughter of a WWII Veteran and married into a military family, all whom served full careers/ multiple duties/ and two of which were shot down over Vietnam, amazingly able to hunker down and wait for recovery by their brothers in arms, I find Dunn falsifying his service, and his dying friend story incredibly offensive. Our military service men and women deserve better. He and his church should feel shame for his lies.
I respectfully disagree. Dunn’s stories in general brought life to & focus on the war experiences of our soldiers, their bravery & their hardships. They are too often overlooked & underrepresented story wise. Most of us are already more familiar w/ the ‘reel’ stories of war rather than what’s truly real.
Indeed. Had he enough courage to remove the “I” in his stories, he would have given the honor to those who really made the sacrifice.
The were his stories not the church stories, why should the church be shamed for this? Should Jesus be shamed because of what Judas did?
I came across some of Lynn Packer’s research 20 years ago. It was an important component in understanding the lengths that the Church goes to control the narrative. Lynn offers enough unique information to be marked as one of the must watch Mormon Stories interviews.
I continue to be impressed with John’s ability to find interesting voices within the Mormon culture, even after being online for 15+ years. .
On my mission between 1980 – 82 I had a mission companion who made a stained glass window for Paul Dunn’s house who said that it was massive and expensive. Years later when Packer outed Dunn’s stories as false, I pointed to that high level of wealth when my dad tried to defend his lying. There isn’t a lot anyone can say to defend someone of enriches oneself on lies.
I A word often used to represent one We on the other hand is collective . Reporter Packer s experiences came from presenting information in a truthful and an unbiased way it was in his training . Military training is is made to be extremely biased you have an enemy and in every way possible your job is to destroy everything the enemy has or uses to in fact destroy you . The church has been the center point of many of our lives . It was for me like being raised in a boot camp . And being a good soldier, I dedicated my life to the battlefield, like all good soldiers in this battle I received numerous accolades for my devotion, and as anyone who has been a part of actual combat will tell you I have seen many miracles both by my hands and by the hands of superiors. The battle fields of life are littered with both live and dead heroes. My older brother was removed from ricks college because of an indiscretion . His being kicked out put him front and center of our local draft board he was drafted he was thrown into the forefront of the battlefield that was Vietnam in the late 60s . Many former and current general authorities used missions and educational deferments to keep from being drafted into that God forsaken debacle. But Many of us (collective) look at the veterans of that era with wonderment and say why didn’t you stand up and do something? What the hell was wrong with you? They were too busy just trying to survive and many are still trying to reason with the justification of Mormon led draft boards of that era and how many wayward young men from Utah and Idaho went to their deaths in Vietnam because they broke a rule at BYU or ricks college. They are my heroes Paul Dunn is just that done down in flames kuputt . All deceivers eventually are exposed as for Boyd k. Well I would like to know how well his current assignment is going in spirit world. Hopefully his recruiter didn’t sell him a bill of goods . My thanks go out to all of the real heroes who have given everything in this battle for the hearts and minds of men . froto where art thou this ring is devouring all who dare put it on !!
I A word often used to represent one We on the other hand is collective . Reporter Packer s experiences came from presenting information in a truthful and an unbiased way it was in his training . Military training is is made to be extremely biased you have an enemy and in every way possible your job is to destroy everything the enemy has or uses to in fact destroy you . The church has been the center point of many of our lives . It was for me like being raised in a boot camp . And being a good soldier, I dedicated my life to the battlefield, like all good soldiers in this battle I received numerous accolades for my devotion, and as anyone who has been a part of actual combat will tell you I have seen many miracles both by my hands and by the hands of superiors. The battle fields of life are littered with both live and dead heroes. My older brother was removed from ricks college because of an indiscretion . His being kicked out put him front and center of our local draft board he was drafted he was thrown into the forefront of the battlefield that was Vietnam in the late 60s . Many former and current general authorities used missions and educational deferments to keep from being drafted into that God forsaken debacle. But Many of us (collective) look at the veterans of that era with wonderment and say why didn’t you stand up and do something? What the hell was wrong with you? They were too busy just trying to survive and many are still trying to reason with the justification of Mormon led draft boards of that era and how many wayward young men from Utah and Idaho went to their deaths in Vietnam because they broke a rule at BYU or ricks college .now I am not saying there weren’t any faithful l d s men or women for that matter who served in that particular conflict. but any individual who actively sought a religious deferment to avoid the draft ,well they get to live with their thoughts but at least they got to live . Paul Dunn is just that done, down in flames ,kuputt . All deceivers eventually are exposed .as for Boyd k. Well I would like to know how well his current assignment is going in the spirit world. Hopefully his recruiter didn’t sell him a bill of goods . My thanks go out to all of the real heroes who have given everything in this battle for the hearts and minds of men . froto where art thou ? this ring is devouring all who dare put it on !! You ask what is the ring well , in Mormonism, it’s the thought that freedom allows justification and so we are to somehow justify all of the general Joseph Smith’s actions . We really can’t handle the truth. We would have to give up too much . My hat is off to every man who was drafted and who served. Someday we will all die and with a little luck God will in fact sort us out
I was in Jim Jardine’s ward when he was Bishop, my wife was baptized by his second councilor. I had no idea, I just thought he was a Harvard Trained Attorney that became very reputable in Utah. This puts him in poor light.
John. You always jump to some false conclusion in every interview you do. Two general authorities lying! Well,no. One general authority and his attorney telling the story his client is telling him. Obviously evidence of a long LDS Church pattern of fraud! Well,not really.
YES REALLY!
There is a cause and effect for lying and especially for trying to cover it up. Hopefully we all learn from it.
The Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. Assuming they have the gift of discernment, one can only wonder during the time frame of 64 to 89 at least one of them did not go up to Paul Dunn and say: “Brother Dunn, we have some concerns”. They obviously knew he was lying; yet, they thought the inspirational nature of his stories carried more weight than the actual truth. I disagree. While I commend Dunn for publicly repenting, it was the Apostles of that era who needed to repent as well. They didn’t.