Introducing the "Trash" Music Video

Guest [00:00:18] I think I lost myself in your new religion. You say I pray for me like a superstition we were, were always made for love. We could always speak in tongues on my knees and I'm seeing visions.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 6, 2016. It is 3:27pm Mountain Time on a Friday and I am super excited as always to, to begin this episode. Last week, I believe it was Tyler Glenn, the lead singer for Neon Trees, released a video called Trash. Many of you will know Neon Trees, they, they have three albums, three songs of theirs are multi platinum. They've been on every late night talk show. Just a, just a really big pop band. Very successful by pretty much any standard. Neon Trees has been doing great work for many, many years. And those of you who are Mormon Stories fans will remember that I interviewed Tyler Glenn and released that interview a few weeks ago where Tyler discusses his early years in the church, his mission, his faith crisis, growing up gay in the church, and how the November policy changed for the LDS Church. Naming same sex married couples as automatic apostates and not allowing their children to be baptized into the church without them turning 18 and renouncing their parents relationship sort of set Tyler into a faith crisis in November of 2015 and also set him on the course of writing songs for a new solo album. And last week, last Friday. So a week ago today, Tyler released the first video for his new album. The video is called Trash. And we are here to talk about the video. It definitely has stirred up the Mormon Internet and the news media. So before we jump in talking about the video, I want to introduce my panel. So let's begin. Let's do ladies first, if that's all right. And let's begin with Jana Reese. Jana, you have been interviewed on Mormon stories before. Specifically, I remember interviewing you when you released your new book called Flunking Satanhood. But why don't you introduce yourself to our audience real quick?

Panel Introductions and Backgrounds

Jana Riess [00:03:05] Sure. And thank you for having me. It's fun to be back on this program. And I am a senior columnist with Religion News Service and primarily writing about Mormonism. I'm currently working on a book about millennial Mormons.

Guest 2 [00:03:21] So.

Jana Riess [00:03:21] And former Mormons, people in the age of roughly 20 to 38 or 39 and very interested in this generation and what's happening with them.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Yeah. So we're excited for that, for that scholarly work, Jana. And thanks for joining us again.

Jana Riess [00:03:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] All right, next is Dr. Christy Money. Christy, why don't you introduce yourself. You've been on Mormon Stories several times, but just tell us a bit about yourself.

Guest 2 [00:03:50] Sure. And thanks for having me, John. So I am a psychologist that specializes in faith crises and Mormon women's mental health. And I host the Mormon Transitions podcast with you, John. So I am, I'm very excited to talk with all y' all because I'm from Georgia.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] All right. All right, Christy, thanks for joining us. Samantha Snyder, you have also joined us on Mormon Stories. Your interview with Tanner Gilliland about losing Mormon millennials was actually the video that Tyler Glenn credits as having sort of jump started his, well, not jump started his faith crisis, but helped him to provide to achieve some clarity about how he saw the church. So, Samantha, tell us a bit about yourself.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:41] I write for a website called zelfontheshelf. It's kind of an ex Mormon millennials type website. And I'm a writer. And yeah, those are the basics.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] And you're not American.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:56] And I'm not American. And I joined the church in England at 17.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] So you're representing the rest of the world, the non American world.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:03] I am representing the rest of the

John Dehlin [00:05:05] world and all millennials.

Guest 3 [00:05:07] Right way.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] Oh, wait, that's a great segue. Sammy Galvez, our listeners will know you from our recent interview that we did in a panel called Black Lives Matter. I'm not sure you self identify as black, but Sammy, why do you identify? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Guest 3 [00:05:29] So my name is Sammy Galvez and I was born and raised in Guatemala City. Guatemala. I, you know, it's complicated, but I was talking to a friend, it's complicated, but I was talking to a friend this morning and said that I identify as an agnostic atheist with Mormon tendencies. But I, you know, I have a deep interest in Mormonism for many reasons. I have a degree in neuroscience from Brigham Young University. And while I was at byu, I served as the president of Understanding Same Gender Attraction, kind of the not so legal group for, or I mean, not so approved group for LGBTQ students at byu. I am also a writer and I have a deep interest in public health, queer theology, feminism, and baked goods.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] And do you identify as gay, Sammy?

Guest 3 [00:06:24] I identify as queer, but yes, I like men.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:06:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] And interestingly I think you mentioned this before, I think your dad is an area authority for the church. Is that right?

Guest 3 [00:06:36] That's correct. My dad is serving as an area 70. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Okay. Perfect. All right, welcome Sammy and Samantha and Janet and Christy. And let's round out our panel with Derek Clements. Derek, tell us A bit about yourself.

Guest 3 [00:06:51] Hello.

Guest 4 [00:06:51] Yes, I think this is my first time on Mormon stories, John, thanks.

Guest 5 [00:06:55] Thanks for the invitation. I live in Provo, Utah. I cover arts and entertainment at the newspaper here, the Daily Herald.

Guest 2 [00:07:03] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:07:03] Graduated from byu. I also do podcasts myself. I'm kind of obsessed with Pixar, and I have a Pixar podcast. And. Yeah, I love talking about this kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Did you do, like, an internship with this American Life or.

Guest 5 [00:07:15] I did an internship with Radiolab a couple years ago.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Radio Lab.

Guest 5 [00:07:18] Yeah. So I do some radio stuff on the side as well.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Yeah. That's awesome. All right, we've got a great panel. Okay, so what can we say about this video? I guess. I guess I'll set it up. We'll put a link to it up on MormonStories.org so people can watch it. But there are a lot of elements that I'll just describe. It's kind of. I don't know if electronic synth pop is a fair way to describe it. Would you guys give it a different genre? Alternative pop? What? Would you guys. Anybody want to throw out a genre?

Describing and Reacting to the Video

Jana Riess [00:07:55] I think we're looking at Derek here.

Guest 2 [00:07:57] Okay.

Jana Riess [00:07:58] Because.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Arts and entertainment critic. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:08:01] Yes.

Jana Riess [00:08:01] My musical knowledge is embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:08:04] Well, here's the thing. My. My expertise is more in theater and film. Music is actually not something that I normally cover that much, but I like your classification, John. I think it fits.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] Honestly, I'm. I've had the honor of becoming friends with Tyler over the past few weeks and months, and I know him well enough to know he doesn't love labels or categories, so I think we can move on from that original question.

Guest 3 [00:08:27] I think the word glam should be put somewhere in there.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] Glam alternative rock somewhere.

Guest 3 [00:08:34] But it was definitely a very fabulous video.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] All right, thumbs up from Sammy. We've got. And Samantha. The two Sams give it an enthusiastic glam thumbs up. Yeah, and, you know, I'll just. I'll briefly describe it. It starts with him, you know, sort of slumped over, drinking a bottle of wine. He gets up, he's kind of walking, maybe stumbling, dancing down a hallway. There are pictures on either side of the hallway, sort of, you know, pictures. One of, I think, Joseph Smith first vision. Another, I think of Angel Moroni standing over Joseph in his bed. And these pictures are altered a bit. So the picture of Joseph Smith has, I guess I want to say something like a joker face. Is that something? How would you guys describe that painting of Joseph Smith? Anybody want to take a stab at what their reaction to it was?

Guest 4 [00:09:34] My Friend, Actually, my friend Davey, who's a really smart guy on lots of arts kind of things. He kind of points out that it's Joseph Smith, but it's also Joseph Smith that's been altered to be kind of

Guest 5 [00:09:45] a creepy version of sort of an ominous creepy version that was unlike what he thought he knew. Kind of maybe portraying how maybe he saw Joseph Smith, and then now how what he thought he knew is different than what he.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Yeah, it's kind of a skull look with a little bit of a green or a white swoop in his hair. I think a little bit of joker. When I see it as well, I

Guest 3 [00:10:13] would describe it as ghostly.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Yeah. And he has white hands and black. Black fingernail polish. And then also there's the picture of Moroni. What do you guys remember about the Moroni painting? Anything specifically?

Guest 3 [00:10:31] I think Moroni also had the same facial features as the Joseph Smith painting.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] And then Moroni's in. And then, of course, Moroni's in a pink frock as well.

Guest 5 [00:10:45] Yeah, and I think that's important. I think. Speaking of the whole glam thing, I think that there's an element of this movie that is very critical of Mormonism, but there's also an element of the video that seems, I think, to sort of reclaim Mormonism in certain ways, too. And I think that sort of glam Moroni is one of those ways that it does that.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Yeah, yeah. And so, just to kind of summarize, he's kind of singing and dancing as he stumbles back and forth in the hall. At one point, he does something quite controversial, which is he actually spits on the altered depiction of Joseph Smith. Eventually, he stumbles back into what sort of seems like a room or an elevator shaft. And then in there, Tyler kind of starts, you know, singing and dancing. At some point, pages of the Book of Mormon start swirling around. And of course, something very controversial in the Elevator Shaft, Tyler makes what is pretty clearly some handshakes that seem to represent some of the tokens of the LDS temple ceremony. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's sort of the feel of the video. Hopefully everyone's watched it. And the first thing I want to do is just go around the panel and. And have everyone just sort of describe what their initial reactions were to the video. So, Jana, why don't we go ahead and start with you, since we introduced you first.

Jana Riess [00:12:20] Great.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] Okay.

Jana Riess [00:12:21] So I've already made this wonderful disclaimer that I have no musical knowledge whatsoever. With that in mind, the thing that struck Me, most about the video is visual, and that is the sense of being enclosed. There's a claustrophobic sensibility to him being in this narrow hallway and then in an elevator with the camera above him and him on the floor. The camera's sort of bearing down and there's this gaze on him, kind of an unrelenting judgment. Gaze of judgment. And so the feeling that I came away with was this sense in the video that his experience of being Mormon has been so confining and restrictive for him and that this is a way to break free. I mean, when you compare it, and I've watched a lot of music videos, but when you compare it to some of the other ones that are very popular, they're so out in the open and, you know, Adele is out there and she's belting her heart out in a field or something. This is so totally, drastically different from that as a cultural statement. And I thought it was very powerful in that way.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] So a vibe of being closed in or restricted or confined.

Guest 2 [00:13:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Wow, that's fascinating. Any other quick reactions? I love that analysis. Jana, anything else you want to add?

Jana Riess [00:13:48] Well, first of all, I should thank you because I had said on my blog that he was holding a beer bottle, and you corrected me and said it was wine. I didn't realize that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Oh, no problem.

Jana Riess [00:13:58] I think that the reaction is something that I'd like to discuss, maybe not now, but throughout, later in the podcast and how it's been dealt with in the media, because I have found that very interesting.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Okay. And yeah, at some point, Jana, you're a convert to the church. I know. And you converted sort of, I don't know, in graduate school sort of time period. So I would love to hear that as well. Okay, so let's move. Let's go ahead and move to Sami. Sami, why don't you tell us a bit about your reactions, Particularly, you know, I'm curious, as someone who identifies as queer, what were your thoughts of the video?

Guest 3 [00:14:39] Well, I think the first word was wow. Wow, this is something new. Certainly something we hadn't seen before. I think. There has always been criticism of Mormonism. There has always been criticism of the culture, the theology, et cetera. But I think this is the first time that so openly. Because, I mean, it was in the Rolling Stone magazine, right?

John Dehlin [00:15:07] On their website, yeah.

Guest 3 [00:15:08] Rolling Stone, yeah. On their website, yeah. So, I mean, it was so openly sacrilegious. And that, I think, is something new. So I was fascinated from the beginning. I also think that it. My reaction when I watched the video. I thought that it was. It was a simple video. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like this huge production, but I think it reflected very much, like, the reality of, you know, that discontent with the church that comes from that pain. Because when you're in that. In that space, I think that you really don't know what to do. And you're like, oh. And everything feels like you don't have very many resources, and so you have to cope with what's at your hand, with what you can reach. And so I feel like that kind of was embodied by the video and that it just, you know, it's like this. Oh, I don't know how to express my anger, but I'm angry and I am hurt and I am in pain, and I'm just gonna do what I know, and it is. I'm gonna reject those things that people have come to value more than my life. And I think that is where the genius in the video came in. But, yeah, my reaction was, wow, this is gonna.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] This may be an obvious question, Sammy, but have you experienced anger towards the church, and was anger a primary emotion for you in response to the November policy?

Guest 3 [00:16:38] Of course. Of course I've been angry. I've been angrier than ever since the policy. And I think it's significant that yesterday, six ago, was when the policy came out. So, you know, these six months have been months full of pain and anger and frustration. And overall, I think it definitely. I really. I will say this. I was going to say this for later, but I just have to say it right now. I think the fact that it's called trash and that people. The reaction to it was just like, oh, this video is trash. And I thought, well, that's exactly the point he wants to make, that we've come to a point where those things that we are taught that are sacred are being considered more sacred than the lives of LGBTQ individuals. And I think that, you know, no matter how sacred your religion is, somebody's life should always be more sacred than that. And I think that's the wake up call that the video is sending out is saying, you know, your beliefs, your tokens, your whatever might be very sacred to you, but we are dying here, so you cannot continue to, you know, ignore us. You cannot continue to hurt us. You cannot continue to reject us and expect us to be quiet about it and expect us to treat ourselves as trash when you're already, you know, treating us enough like trash.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] That's a fascinating point that there should Be nothing about a religion more sacred than someone's life.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:12] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:18:13] And, you know, I think that's, that's the main point that he's trying to make. That that's why he decided to go there where he shows the temple tokens, he spits on Joseph Smith's face because he says, you know, this authority you claim to have is no, has no more value than my life. It just doesn't have that value. So I'm going to throw that. You are throwing me away. Well, I'm going to throw that away because my life, you know, and I don't know if, you know, if Tyler still considers himself a believer in God per se, but, you know, whether from a humanist or secularist perspective or from a Mormon perspective, like a human life is valued above everything else. And that's the point where, you know, people have been crossing that line and that's why this reaction came up.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Beautiful. Thank you, Sami. Alright, the other Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:05] I loved the video from the first time I saw it. I loved how bold it is. It's obviously very polarizing. I wouldn't expect any faithful Mormons to like it. But I think if anyone has the right to create a piece of art like this, it's Tyler because it's just true to his experience. And I think, I think it's awesome that he's like, cast off those superstitions and just made this music video that completely represents how he felt at the time. I'm all for authenticity in creativity, so, yeah, I think it's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] How about the music, Samantha? Did you actually like the tunes?

Samantha Shelley [00:19:44] The music itself, I think I loved it a lot more because it was Tyler and I knew his story and I knew what went into it because I don't, I mean, it's not, I don't know, because I love the song, but I think I definitely love it more than I would have if it was just some other artist whose life I didn't really know anything about.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] Right. All right, Derek, your reaction?

Guest 4 [00:20:05] Yeah, well, not to contradict Samantha, but I consider myself a faithful believer. But I also really liked the video.

Guest 5 [00:20:13] To me, I appreciated it especially just as an expression of Mormonism, especially in film. I mean, the video is a film and film is one of those art mediums that's different than, you know, Mormons have a lot of really great plays. We have a lot of really great, you know, written words and stuff, but there's not a lot of really great cinema that expresses complex Mormon, you know, realities. And there's so many layers in the video that exist. It actually took me several times to sort of pick up on lots of the things that were even happening in the movie. I'm sort of embarrassed to say that I didn't even notice some of, like, the temple things the first time I saw it, but then I did later. Anyway, there's a lot that's just beautiful about it. There's so many aesthetic choices that it makes that I find really pleasing and also really deeply significant. Like when he paints the X on his face, first it's this black X.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] Is it red or black?

Guest 5 [00:21:20] Well, first it's black and then the lighting shifts and it becomes red. And I think that there's a lot of just nice beauty in that visually, but also some meaning. And, you know, there's lots of ways you can interpret things. I don't feel like I understand everything about all the lyrics. There's some that are still sort of enigmatic to me, but I think that it captures just beautifully a very particular experience of pain that Mormonism can encapsulate, incorporate that can be a part of people's lives as Mormons. And you know, Jana, on your blog post, which was really great, you quoted, I think it was Nadia Bosweber who talks about how it's not always good to preach from our scars. There's some caution to that. There's some wisdom that can be.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] From our wounds, right? From our wounds, yeah.

Guest 5 [00:22:11] Our wounds, yeah. I think that there's some wisdom to that. I would love to see this. I'm very eager to see what Tyler does with the rest of his solo album. And I would love to see different. Different aspects of his experience captured and stuff. But this particular thing that he's captured, this pain and this anger is just so important to really give voice to. And I think he's done it beautifully.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Excellent. Right, Christy, Dr. Money, bring us home with this first question.

Guest 2 [00:22:44] Sure. Well, I'll tell you, John, when you first texted me that morning, I think it was 8am that it was being released in the Rolling Stone. And with the link, I was snuggling with one of the twins, I think, in bed, and I opened it and Then in true 6th generation Utah Mormon fashion, I went, oh, my heck. Like, this is. This is. Well, it moved me profoundly. And so I wanted to share my, like, my perspective from an English major's point of view and then psychologists. So from an English major, it resonated with my experience being moved by great works of art and particularly this journey, this transition in terms of faith and in growing up. That we all do. William Blake did it. And that was the first thing that. That struck me was his. His collection of poems. I don't know if any of you had read the Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience. Yes, and. Mm. Yeah. And the. And particularly the. The contrast between Little Little Lamb and. Because the. The ending stand is our, you know, little lamb. Who made the little lamb? God made these. So, I mean, it's very. I mean, very, for lack of a better word, innocent. And it reminded me so much of the first time that I heard Tyler when he sang Where Can I Turn for Peace at that information conference. Sorry, I didn't expect to get emotional, but here I am. And you could just hear his love for his people. And then Songs of Experience with William Blake is. I mean, it's a bit. It can be a bit more, well, jarring. Just a little more.

Jana Riess [00:24:59] Yes, it's quite a contrast.

Guest 2 [00:25:01] Exactly. Yeah. And so contrasting. Where Can I Turn for Peace with Trash then? Songs of Innocence, Songs of Experience. It just. It parallels just so completely. For me, I love to look for parallels in literature, art, and in life and especially in the framework of a faith crisis and a faith transition, because, I mean, that's. That's professionally what I do. So. Yeah, I just. I think it's helpful to see what Tyler's going through is somewhat universal, and I hope this is my plea that the others will. Will who have been similarly hurt will see what. What he produced and. And not feel so alone.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Beautiful. Thank you, Christy. Have any of you read My Name Is Asher Lev by Chance?

Jana Riess [00:25:59] That is one of my favorite books of all time.

Guest 2 [00:26:03] Me too.

Jana Riess [00:26:03] It's my. It's my favorite Chaim Potok, but I think Christy and I need to get together. We've never met spirits.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Well, Jana, did you or Christy by chance think of my name as Asher Lev when you saw this video?

Guest 2 [00:26:15] Absolutely.

Jana Riess [00:26:16] You know, I didn't, but that's a very interesting parallel. So. Okay. For people who don't know the story and Christy, chime in, because I'm sure I'm going to miss something, but Asher Lev is an Hasidic Jew growing up in Brooklyn, and his parents are very traditional, very orthodox. He, however, feels drawn from the age of six to be an artist. And, you know, it's a constant cultural tension with his family of learning art, especially when his lessons take him to human anatomy, and that is, you know, so offensive to his family. And so the story and the sequel especially are about how he balances art and this deep, abiding religious faith. That he still has, even if he's reinterpreting it himself.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Yeah, it's beautiful. And I don't want to spoil the book for anybody, but there's a moment of artistic expression towards the end of the book that just immediately came to mind when I saw Tyler's video. Yes, Christy, you too?

Guest 2 [00:27:22] Yeah, yeah, I definitely. And again, to bring it back to that Where Can I Turn for Peace, that first song that he recorded. I mean, I see that the passion is there in both, just like it. It was for. For Asher Lev and.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:27:37] His orthodox upbringing to, you know, to the end. But it's still. It's very, very well transformed. Yeah.

Analyzing the Video's Imagery and Meaning

John Dehlin [00:27:45] You know, a lot of people are focusing on the anger and how angry it is. A lot of people have written in saying they're sad that it expresses anger because that's the stereotype that ex Mormons are angry and that that allows believing Mormons to dismiss struggling or post Mormons. Because anger, for some reason in Mormonism is just as permission to immediately dismiss someone. But would it be fair to say in anyone's experience that oftentimes anger is the flip side of love and that in many instances, you just don't have anger unless you first have love? Is that. Anybody want to touch on that?

Jana Riess [00:28:28] The song is definitely a lover's quarrel. You know, you can't have this kind of passion that's evident throughout the video and throughout the song without deep and abiding love. He wouldn't care otherwise. You know, he cares deeply about how he has been treated. And there's obviously fear about how others are being treated or will be treated. And so, yes, I think in answer to your question, yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] Yeah. Anyone else want to add anything to that point?

Guest 5 [00:29:02] I would say love and also a

Guest 4 [00:29:04] place of coming from the inside. The sort of approach that I took in my column in the paper that

Guest 5 [00:29:11] I used to react to this video was to really try to stop people from thinking of this as an ex Mormon or an anti Mormon expression that certainly Tyler is free to go on his path, and that very well may include leaving the church. But this video doesn't express somebody from the outside attacking the church. It expresses a deeply, deeply internal experience of the church. And to me, that just is so important that we can't dismiss this as like, oh, people are going and attacking the church. This is. I mean, some of the lines in the song just indicate Tyler is saying, look, I have been in the church, I am so deeply within it, but you keep throwing me out. He says, and I just think that that's really an important nuance to this. This is not somebody attacking the church from the outside. This is somebody really living the church, deeply loving the church, loving his experience of spirituality, expecting to have future spiritual experiences. And he says he'll think of, you know, the church or Joseph Smith or whoever when. When he sees fire in the sky, which I sort of interpret as, you know, when he has future spiritual experiences, he'll think about his time in Mormonism. But this is, this isn't. This is an experience that he's having within the church because he loves. He loves, you know, the church or he loved the church. And that's what's so painful about it.

Guest 3 [00:30:42] Yeah, I think, you know, it's easy to just say, oh, he's angry, so he just hates the church. I don't think people realize that this song comes from a place of deep heartbreak, of a deep and abiding love that, like Derek said, still sees the church whenever they see fire in the sky. I mean, clearly, I mean, people. I think one of the significant lines is that he says, if you wanted me to stay, I'd repent my days away. So that means that, you know, even if, I mean, that shows that he is willing to play his part if they could just give him a little bit, just one sign that they want him to stay. And, you know, as a queer Mormon, I feel the same. I just say beg, Beg for one sign that they want us in the church, that they want us to stay. But it's like as time goes by, it becomes more and more evident that they just don't want us there and that we are trash the church.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Yeah. Yeah. For those of you who, you guys should check out the interview with Tyler, especially if you don't understand the video or don't like it. Something that I just would have never guessed. Not only did Tyler, he never experimented with his same sex sexuality prior to his mission. Served a faithful, honorable mission, loved his mission. And when he started his band, Neon Trees, you know, he. He helped bring that band to success, global success, and through it all remained absolutely an orthodox true believer. Now, I guess his behavior, he talks about how because he was gay, he had to engage in lots of secret, private, unhealthy behaviors. Not that he had to, but he did. And that coming out for him was something that literally saved his life. But up Until November of 2015, Tyler Glenn had never known any of the difficulties of church history at all. And he had never questioned the church's truthfulness. And so, yeah, this isn't someone who viewed the church casually. This is someone who had total and absolute love and belief in the church up until the church changed its policy. And I think that's important for people to understand. I would love just. And you guys have the lyrics up. I would love to have each of you just share a few of your favorite lyrics or lyrics that you think are interesting or disturbing or, you know, whatever you want to say. Let's just kind of go around the horn and have each of you share something about, you know, the lyrics. So why don't we begin this time? Derek, do you mind starting and telling us a few of the lines or lyrics that really resonate with you other than what you've already talked about?

Guest 4 [00:33:50] Yeah, sure. I mean, the ones that I already mentioned are the ones that I would say, so I don't have too much more to add. But the end or sort of in

Guest 5 [00:33:58] the bridge, when he says, you keep throwing me out, like, you keep throwing me out. Like, you keep throwing me out. Like, it's just, you know, sort of bludgeoning the listener, and with this experience that he's had, and, I don't know, I think it's really sad.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] Yeah, yeah. In other words, they're rejecting him. They're throwing him out, and so he's throwing them out back. Okay, great. Thanks, Derek. Christy, do you have some lines that really stuck with you?

Guest 2 [00:34:27] Sure. I mean, the refrain was my favorite by far. The one man's trash is another man's treasure, because I saw him reclaiming his identity and his worth that nobody can diminish or take away from, even if the policy may have. Even by unintentionally, it did that. I mean, it. It. It tried to devalue and. But by saying no, that I. I am. My identity is a treasure. I am a treasure. And any. You know, those who are listening who may relate to him, I want them to. To. To feel like the. The treasures that they are.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] That our LGBT members are treasures. Not true.

Guest 2 [00:35:15] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Christy. That was beautiful. All right, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:22] This could just be my own interpretation of this bit, but I. Like in the beginning, when he says, we were always made for love, we could always speak in tongues. To me, it sounds like he's saying kind of all these great magical things the church promises. Like, we don't need the church to have them. That's how I interpret. Like, that we could always speak in tongues. Like, we could always do amazing things. You just kind of taught us that it was your way. That was the only way to do them.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] Yeah. And this reminds me of something I think I heard John Larsen say once. And I don't think everybody who's LDS is going to feel that this is true. But I think, you know, one interesting insight that John expressed was a feeling that the church appropriate. Some people feel like the church appropriates their gifts and their talents as their own, and then sort of takes credit for them, and then in some ways even sells. Sells them back to the members. I remember him saying something to that effect. And I don't mean to cast the church in that light other than to say that some people feel that way, that, you know, so often people say, well, I wouldn't be moral without the church, or I wouldn't have a good family without the church. Or, you know, good families are what the church produces when in reality or while Mormons are so nice or they do good things. And in some ways, maybe people would be good and people are good. And if the church is strong and successful, it's in large part not due to itself, but to the goodness of its members. And maybe sometimes we don't take enough credit for our goodness because we. We are so quick to credit the church with our goodness. I don't know. I don't want to bludgeon, but is that kind of what you're saying, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:37:16] Yeah, that's kind of. I mean, being a convert and an ex Mormon is sort of like a weird, bizarre situation. And that's kind of one of the things that bothers me the most is, like, even with ex Mormons I meet, I mean, I say bothers, everyone's entitled to their own way of looking at things. And I know I've grown up differently, but even when people leave the church, they seem to. I personally feel like people inflate the good the church does a lot. And I feel like being a convert is obviously a lot easier to detach myself emotionally and be like, that's crazy. But I mean, that was why I appreciated this video so much, because it just cast off all those things. And it was.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Yeah, yeah, beautiful. All right, Sammy, any favorite. Any favorite lines for you?

Samantha Shelley [00:37:57] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:37:58] So first I want to add on what Samantha was saying in that couple of lines where she says, we're always made for love and speak in tongues. I feel like growing up in the church, you constantly hear you are the chosen revelation. I mean, generation, you are the youth of Israel. Right? I mean, the church just. I feel like I felt very special growing up, and it's this feeling of, oh, you know, we're special. And we have gifts and we were sent for this specific time. And that, you know, Mormon urban legend of, oh, we'll go to heaven. And people will say, oh, I lived in the time of Thomas Monson. And just the silence will cover the entire room. And everyone's gonna be like, wow, you were amazing. So, I mean, this sense of, like, you are special and you are great, and you're this great spirit that came to this earth. And then when we start exploring our queerness as a spiritual g and as a gift that was given to us and accept it and embrace it, then things turn around. And so it's just interesting for me that those lines reflect that change from, oh, you are this, like, amazing fighter. And instead of seeing queer Mormons for what we are, which I firmly believe is this gift to the church to help us expand on the reality of God and God's true nature, we are being thrown away. And so that's the first thing. And then again, what I was saying before, when he says that he would repent if they wanted him, I mean, he's just like, if you just gave me a chance, I would come back. I mean, and it's interesting because now that you brought up that he's found out so much more about church history and everything, and despite having read all about church history and despite knowing all this, he still says I would come back. I mean, and of course, I don't know how he feels personally, but I know so many people who. Queer Mormons who, you know, know about the problems in church history and all that, but still love the church for one reason or another, and who would really come back and who are just aching because they would love to come back, but the doors have been closed. And so, you know, it's such a tragedy that the church drew that and the mess that they got themselves into. And, you know, I think the repercussions will continue to be felt, and I hope that they realize how much love LGBT Mormons have for the church.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Beautiful. Thanks, Sami. All right, Jana.

Guest 2 [00:40:38] Well,

Jana Riess [00:40:40] several people have already said things that I found very interesting, but one that people have not mentioned is, maybe I'll see you in hell. And when I heard that, you know, my knee jerk reaction was, but we don't believe in hell. Well, of course we do, just not the traditional theological hell. But he's been living in a hell. And the line makes me wonder. I mean, you could interpret it as, you know, well, he's wishing on those who would consign him to this misery that they would have the same fate. But I think there's something else going on here, and that they are creating their own misery with their, you know, refusal to accept him, to refuse to love him and allow him to bring his gifts to the table. That is a version of hell. If we define hell as failure to progress, which I think we would in Mormonism, then our church is failing to progress in a very important way.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Hmm, Interesting. Jenna, thank you.

Guest 4 [00:41:49] And, John, if I could add to that line, too. I think that there's a lot, to me, this video and the song, but especially the video, seems to be addressed at Joseph Smith in particular. And I think that's open to interpretation. But I think that that line could also really apply to him.

Guest 5 [00:42:06] And for somebody that has maybe recently come to understand him in a different way than he did growing up, I could see that being like, you know what? Maybe I'll see you in hell. Maybe I'll be in hell with you. You weren't a good person either. Or I'm not a good person. It's just kind of blowing these things open. And I don't know. That's interesting to me.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] There's a few more lines that I just want to quick analyze. And what I'm going to do is just say the first person that responds can give their analysis of the line. What does someone make of the line, you used to baptize me when I wasn't ready. Anybody connected that line.

Jana Riess [00:42:49] I was just wondering about it, you know, wondering what there was in his life that made him feel that way, that he wasn't ready. And I'd be curious to know.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Yeah, for me, I think about, you know, he's gay and he's raised in the church to believe it, and so he's sort of conditioned into that belief. Whereas if he had had a chance, developing as a gay youth, to sort of think about whether he really wanted to be a part of a church that didn't fully accept him, whether he might have made very different life choices because he writes this song at age 32, having, you know, all of his teens and 20s and, you know, committed to the church. And maybe he would have made very different decisions. Maybe he wouldn't have spent so many days repenting his days away, and he would have found love earlier on and, you know, that sort of thing. Does that make sense?

Jana Riess [00:43:50] It does.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] That's what came to mind for me. What about the line? I mean, for me, the saddest line is in all of this, I lost myself. Does somebody want to just jump in about that? Really quick.

Guest 3 [00:44:05] So I want to say something about the previous line that we're talking about. He says, you used to baptize me when I wasn't ready. But he says it right after. He says, you remind me that seven sins are deadly. And when he comments on this, I really don't think that he's talking about himself. I think he's talking about the sins that he sees in the church. And I think that eagerness to baptize children really young and stunting their growth, their spiritual growth, by denying them access to those gifts is kind of what he's referring to when he says he wasn't ready. And again, just. And then going back to. In all of this, I lost myself again. I remember going through the temple myself, and just not just. I remember the last time I went through the temple, I walked out and I was feeling suicidal because I just felt like there was not a place for me in the temple. And, like, whatever happened in there did not include me and that I was lost from this plan. This plan did not cover me. And I'm lost. I don't know where I fit. I don't know where I'm coming from. I don't know what's gonna happen with me. And I don't even know who to ask these questions to. And so I think that's kind of what he's referring to. He's talking about being lost.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Yeah. Anyone make anything of what was in my drink? The line. What was in my drink? Just really quickly, one quick reaction to that line.

Guest 3 [00:45:32] Kool Aid. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] Was that Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:45:38] Oh, yeah. So when I heard that, I imagined it as, like, someone saying, like, maybe asking him if he'd been drinking or. Or, you know, that's. That's, like, quite a typical thing for Mormons to do. Yeah, just like those casual, like, oh, what's in your drink? If they, like, see a picture or something.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Yeah, I. That may be. I read it as just basically saying, how did I get fooled?

Samantha Shelley [00:46:01] Yeah, I think of it that way, too.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] Who put something in my drink? You know what I mean? Like, how did this happen to me? How did I lose myself, frankly? Right. Okay, man. We've only got, like, 15 minutes left, and there's so much more to cover. You know, obviously the most controversial part is probably the decision. Decisions to spit on Joseph. And honestly, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this. I don't think he planned to do that. You know, I think it was something if, you know, he can correct me or you guys can just. It's Maybe it's my memory, but my memory is that he told me that that's something that actually happened spontaneously during the shooting. But that's clearly one super controversial piece. And then maybe the other super controversial piece is him deciding to show the temple tokens, which of course, we swear to never reveal. You know, that's. I don't. It's hard to think of more of something bigger, more blasphemous in Mormonism than that, because the temple ceremony is sort of the summative, you know, ritual within Mormonism. And it's emphasized so severely, so severely that prior to 1993 or whatever, you actually would indicate in the temple ways that you would be killed by either slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself if you ever revealed the signs and tokens. So it's a pretty heavy deal. Most people are basically saying that was. No, I shouldn't say most people. Some people are saying that was over the top, that it's going to turn off believers, that it was just unnecessary. What would your reactions be really quickly to the argument that that was over the top? Jana, why don't we start with you?

Debating the Sacred Imagery in the Video

Jana Riess [00:47:49] I can see both sides. I think that he has a right to self expression. I wish that the temple had not been referenced. That's my personal feeling. But I do understand the pain of it, or at least some of it. I was. Did any of you see how his mother responded?

John Dehlin [00:48:12] Debbie? Yes. Is beautiful.

Guest 2 [00:48:13] Yeah.

Jana Riess [00:48:14] Yeah, it was so. She says she does not agree with the video. She viewed it, didn't like it, found it sacrilegious and upsetting. But she said, I love my son. And ultimately, you know, and I've seen how LGBT members are marginalized. She says, I've been on this journey since he came out to me personally nearly three years ago. Our conversations have been deep, revealing, life changing. Since the November 5th LDS policy, we have talked, shared thoughts deeper and seen firsthand his personal pain. I've known all this pain, turmoil and sadness he's felt. I felt it, too. I feel it daily. Well, you know, that's the context in which we need to be looking at all of this. Yes, yes, it's offensive, and yes, it is in violation of temple covenants. So we say that out loud and deal with that as a fact. But on the other hand, to try to understand where it's coming from is vital.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] And it's a place of pain, you're saying?

Jana Riess [00:49:14] Absolutely. It's a place of pain.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Yeah. All right. Sammy, do you have anything to add

Guest 3 [00:49:20] to What Janice said, you know, it is, again, from my comments in the beginning, I do believe that he had to go there. He had to go to the most sacrilegious possible way. Because that is. I think that is the question in what we're doing. Because, you know, it is from the temple that we learn, and Mormon theology teaches that things are between a man and a woman. And so it is. I think, at least in my personal journey, the temple has become a bastion of heterosexuality. And I think that queer Mormons need to really reclaim that. And that's part of the reason why I love this video, because it's kind of like this reclamation and saying, no, you know, these things you're teaching are the worthless part of it. Not me, not my love, not my spiritual gift and my divine queerness, but your impositions and your ideas and your heterosexuality, that's being pushed onto me. That's what's trash.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] Beautiful. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:50:29] I think keeping him, you know, like Sami said, the first time he went to the temple, he felt suicidal afterwards. I mean, that's insane. And if we, like, take a step back from Mormonism and we just think about what the temple is like. I know I'm very blunt about it, but I think it's crazy. And I think that Tyler probably. It wasn't a walk in the park for him to go through the temple either. And so I feel like, you know, he's had a lot of stuff kind of inflicted upon him a lot of pain because of the church. And so I absolutely think he deserves to be able to be expressive in that way. And, I mean, it was obviously a decision for him to put it in. And I understand why people are offended. I would have been offended a year ago, but, Yeah, I am 1000% okay with him doing that in the video.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] All right, Derek?

Guest 4 [00:51:23] Yeah, I think a lot of good things have been said. One interpretation that I've seen that I think is interesting is that

Guest 5 [00:51:34] what exactly we covenant to do or reveal or not reveal in the temple is somewhat. But in the eye of the beholder, some people see it as something else entirely. And I thought that was an interesting perspective. But certainly there's a lot of reclaiming here that's happening in that scene. Whereas in the temple we are given things, he's giving them to himself in the video here, sort of seeming to say that he doesn't need the church to thrive. And I think that's a valid point.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] Wow, that's a powerful interpretation. All right, Christy, any final thoughts on this point?

Guest 2 [00:52:15] Sure. Well, I agree with everyone. I guess that makes me super agreeable. And I also think that he embodies what I see so often in people who are in the early stages of their faith crisis. And I almost see him almost like an Adam and Eve, both Adam and Eve figure, and maybe bracing himself for, like, well, is. Is there no other way, you know, than to. Than to, you know, reveal something that. I mean, and I'll. I'll be honest. Like, when I. When I saw the hand symbols, like, I. I felt physical pain and. And an adrenaline shot. Like, I felt. I mean, my tribal instincts just went. Went through the roof. Like, oh, man, he didn't just do that. But. And I. And I hear from people, you know, almost on a daily basis, like, asking, like, is there no other way? Like, can I. Can I just spare the pain? Or. And the. And, you know, the. The. The betrayal that I'm feeling right now, the anger, like, can. Can I just, like, go from, you know, the grieving process from, you know, isolation to acceptance? And no, sadly, it doesn't. It doesn't work that way. So I. Yeah, it really, like I said in my first comment, it just. That scene in particular moved me deeply.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Thank you. I don't want to prime anybody on this, but there's a moment where he draws the X on his forehead. Does anyone notice what happens after that?

Samantha Shelley [00:53:54] Doesn't it get light?

John Dehlin [00:53:56] Exactly. The light turns brighter. Did anybody make any. Did anybody notice that and take any meaning from it?

Jana Riess [00:54:05] Freedom.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] What do you mean?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:08] Well, he's finally liberated from these things that have been dragging him down for so long. Like, he said, okay, just kick me out. Or, you know, he's like, giving himself a scarlet letter and he's essentially saying he's done with it.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah. Freedom. Okay. Others. Did anyone else notice that and do they have any reactions to it?

Guest 3 [00:54:28] I think it's the progression of, you know, first, like, drinking, meaning first, like, breaking a commandment and then, like, rejecting church authority and then breaking covenants, and then finally that X. I mean, it's this progression that you see, and then it's finally, like, liberation. And I think it's the completion of that cycle into liberation and light and being able to accept himself once he was able to put aside those ideas that his life and his, you know, his identity was sinful or evil. So

Guest 5 [00:55:07] I have a little bit of a different take on that. I don't really read any sort of hope or light and the end in the way that the movie ends or the video, because he sort of seems to be dying, I would argue. So it's. I don't see a lot of light in that or hope.

Jana Riess [00:55:26] That was how I saw it, too, that at the end, you know, it's a mock death and we have done this to him. That's how it felt to me.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:35] I thought about how there's that kind of. That moment when you finally accept that, you know, you're going to leave the church, or you definitely don't believe it anymore. And there's almost a euphoria that I would describe as very similar to the type of euphoria you might feel if you're a convert and you suddenly think the church is true. And it's like, so you get that moment of euphoria when you decide that you're done with the church, but then after that, there's just a whole host of crap you still have to go through. And it gets really rough again after that. But just that initial acceptance can just be really empowering, and it does make everything seem brighter for a bit.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] I did ask him why he laid down at the end, because my wife's reaction was, now, wait a minute, he's just had this enlightening experience. He reclaimed his power. The light comes on. You know, my Margi was wanting him to end in a really powerful, strong, you know, enlightened stance. And he basically, Basically said that it was sort of trying to represent the weekend that he heard about the decision and the feelings and the emotions and even the exhaustion that he felt over that weekend. And I don't mean to be interpreting it for him, but that helped me a little bit because I obviously want LGBT people to be empowered and emboldened and strengthened, not defeated. And I was happy to hear that. He certainly didn't intend it to be a message of defeat at the end, so that, you know, that's. That's something I wanted to share. Well, we've only got a few minutes left, and I think the. The biggest things that I wanted to ask as a remainder, what I'm going to do is ask each of you to gather some thoughts around these final questions, and you can take whatever angle you want. But I was going to ask, you know, has this have an impact? An impact? Will this have an impact? If so, what is the impact, positive or negative? And then, you know, do we anticipate that Tyler might be called into a disciplinary council? And if so, what. What. What the consequences might be? That. That's a lot for people to tackle. And, you know, none of you have to tackle all of that, but I'm going to ask those as final prompts as people sort of think about their closing statements. And so what I'll do is I'll. If it's all right, Christy, I'll ask you to respond first to some of those. Any of those final questions that you want to. That you want to respond to.

The Video's Broader Impact on Mormons

Guest 2 [00:58:08] Okay. Well, in terms of an impact, absolutely. And just to give one example of a measurable impact after that video, I've been talking with a few friends and working on an initiative to launch on the seven month anniversary of the November 5th policy. So that's June 5th, where we wear rainbow pins to show our hope for better days ahead that not everybody thinks the same way about accepting the policy. So that's happening.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] It's moved you and people, you know, to, to take more action to show your allyship with LGBT members. Excellent. Derek, how about you? How would you want to respond to some of those questions?

Guest 4 [00:59:06] Yeah, there's a lot of questions in there. I'm trying to think of what piece

Guest 5 [00:59:11] sort of I can add to it. I think that as a piece of art, this song and this video has the capacity to shake things up and it breaks some taboos. And in doing that, I think that it has the capacity to reach people. I think that it has inspired people to feel things. And that is a good thing, I would say. My friend Carrie said something really important that the title Trash is so important because he. So he's gay and ex Mormon. And he said, I wonder if those whose lives are within the mainstream of LDS teachings, even as they struggle with doubt, can ever understand what it is like to feel simultaneously that the Mormon religion is true and that they will never live up to be more than discarded. And that's important to me, to important voice to put out there. I think there's a lot of really great artistic value that this song and video has, and I think that it will make that point for people.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Yeah, certainly has us talking. And that's an important contribution for art. Samantha, what would you want to say in response to some or all of those questions?

Samantha Shelley [01:00:34] I'm just curious to see if the church is going to take disciplinary action because on the one hand, how can they not? I mean, he's committed the ultimate blasphemy, but then at the same time, he also, you know, is famous and it's going to draw attention to the fact that, well, I mean, we already know the church isn't exactly accepting of gay people, but also even that we have these temple signs Which I'm sure they're not eager to be public about. So, I mean, I have no real informed opinion. I'm just excited to see what happens.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Yeah. Yes. I saw someone write, will the church be dumb enough to excommunicate him? Because it's almost. I mean, it's almost. It could be viewed as an invitation.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:19] Yeah, well, and then everyone who isn't Mormon who sees the video will be like, oh, those are the temple signs. Like, it's something that only Mormons are going to have picked up on anyway. Like, only people that have gone through the temple.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] And it's not just that. It just gets people talking about the policy and the church's treatment of LGBT people. Like, I don't see how the church has anything to win by excommunicating him. And yet how can they not? Right?

Samantha Shelley [01:01:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] Yeah. So they're in a pickle. It'll be curious to see how they respond. Sammy, what would you like to say?

Guest 3 [01:01:48] You know, I think more from. From the queer Mormon perspective. This. This video, if anything, I think it has called some queer Mormons to action and to, you know, hold the church a little more accountable for their actions. I think that many queer Mormons certainly feel like, oh, like I'm not. I'm not gonna turn the other cheek anymore because it's. It's enough. And I think that's kind of been coming from November and this video. I know several of my friends who say, oh, yeah, totally, you know, we need to call it out and we need to just say it like it is, that it's just these policies are. Are the real trash. And I think I'm excited to see what people do about that.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] All right, Jana. Thank you, Sammy. Jana, we'll give you the last word of the panel.

Jana Riess [01:02:41] Well, one of the things that I've been interested in, I can't speak to this question of what the Church will do. Honestly, I was so shocked by the November policy, and it has been so damaging. I have no confidence that the church will always do what is in its best self interest, because that clearly was not. But, you know, with this, I've been following how it's been addressed in the media, and that's been very interesting. And it's been clear to me over the last week as this coverage has unfolded, how much goodwill the church really squandered in November with this policy, because major media outlets are providing, I think, a very sympathetic portrait of what he has done, including with the New York Daily News, which had a headline, let's See if I can pull it up here. Neon Trees singer Tyler Glenn says Mormon faith is just trash in new video. That was actually not my impression of what he was trying to say. He was trying to say that he had been treated like trash, but that's not the same thing as saying that his religion was trash.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] Right.

Jana Riess [01:03:53] So it's interesting to me that that was what this viewer and journalist picked up on.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Yeah. I just have to say, as a side note, I was really bummed when the Sultley Tribune's headline said, tyler Glenn, like, drinks alcohol and spits on profit in video. Their initial headline was something like that, and I was like, I think it was a little more sophisticated than that. But that's what we get anyway. Beautiful. Well, I. I think we could go a couple more hours, but I promised you guys I'd keep it to an hour, and I think that's good for our listeners as well. So I just want to thank Jenna Reese, Sammy Galvez, Samantha Snyder, Derek Clements, and Kristi Money, all for coming on Mormon Stories. You guys are were great panelists, so thank you all for being on the show. And in addition, I'll just say that thank you for supporting Mormon Stories, for making this happen. I want to give a personal shout out to Tyler for what I believe to be is a lot of courage. He's obviously probably taken a lot of heat for this. A lot of people have made a lot of assumptions about who he is and his character. And I can just tell you from my experiences with him, he's a deeply thinking and a deeply feeling and a deeply caring and sensitive person. He may be doing something bold, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't feel and that it doesn't hurt when people are sad or disappointed or angry at him or malign him. But to me, that's a testament to his character that he feels so strongly about speaking up for the voiceless and the powerless that he's willing to, you know, endure the slings and the arrows for trying to fight for those who are suffering. And so I'll send my love and support and appreciation out to Tyler individually. I'll thank the panelists. I'll thank our listeners, those who donate to Mormon Stories. Keep it alive and please share this video if you like it, share the song, buy the song, and and then feel free to comment on mormonstories.org if you have any thoughts or feedback. Express to Tyler your love and appreciation if you want. But as the rest of you are. I'm super excited to see the rest of his album, which will be, as he, I think, said is coming out in September, October, time frame ideally. So, again, thanks to our panelists, thanks to our listeners, and we look forward to talking with you again soon on Mormon Stories. Take care, guys.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:30] Thank you.

Closing Reflections and Song Outro

Guest [01:06:41] Water never turns to wine? I've been drinking all the time? I think of you? Whenever I see fire in the sky? Your friends think I I'm a freak? Why was in my drink? I can't even think? But we got history? And all the feels I lost myself? Maybe I see you in? Okay, whatever. One man stretches another man. Don't? I said my flash.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.