On April 5th, 2014 Ordain Women will again be seeking entrance into the LDS General Conference Priesthood session. Details can be found here. In this episode we interview Nadine Hansen, Kimberly Brinkerhoff, Katie Hyde, and Debra Jenson about their participation in Ordain Women.
30 Responses
I think there would be some value in having some men show up at the General Women’s meeting the week before (not too many, not too few). It is my understanding that in the past men have been able to attend this meeting. If men are allowed in again this year and it is noted, it would highlight the difference and serve as a type of public precedent for women to go into the Priesthood meeting.
Mike RM,
Men are ALWAYS present at the General Women’s meeting. Additionally, Men preside, and speak at the General Women’s meeting. There’s already precedent for the disparity between how the 2 meetings are handled differently.
And there are ALWAYS men at the local Stake Centers when the General Women’s meeting is broadcast (at least every one I’ve attended).
Mina,
“Disparity”? As in inequality or just ran differently? Does it seem insidious that man are at women conferences and women not at men’s? Is this a big issue for you and if so why? I am being sincere. I get equality like voting, or equal pay for equal work and even scholastic equality but priesthood? Don’t get it. Do you feel less significant? I assure you you’re not. At least not in my eyes or anyone with common sense. Just trying to get a feel for where others are coming from. Thx
John, thank you for this broadcast. The words of these women truly resonated with me, especially the comparison to the Brother of Jared. I have found that speaking my faith and truth authentically – even when it is unpopular – is actually face enhancing.I recently submitted my OW profile and, like was shared here, I was very motivated by my desire to see changes for both my daughter and my sons within the church.
As someone who doesn’t believe in the church’s claims I’m confused why people care so much about this issue. If these ladies believe in the church, isn’t it possible things are currently the way God wants it (I know, there are numerous examples of teachings that have changed over the years…hence one of the reasons I don’t believe)? But if these people don’t believe in the church than isn’t this movement more of a social issue than a theological issue? And if so why use a religious institution as your vehicle to promote your political views? I seriously get tired of people blending their politics with their religion. I understand some mixing is unavoidable but geeze, this is complete inoculation. Just an observation/thought
Many of the women who participate in Ordain Women DO believe in the church’s truth claims. Where’d you get the idea that we don’t? Believing in female ordination and believing in the church’s truth claims are not mutually exclusive.
My belief that women should be ordained has absolutely nothing to do with my political beliefs/leanings.
If you do believe in the church claims —– that it is the Only true church and led by a Prophet then why continue to push this issue. You women are very confusing —– makes no sense to many. Story about a person asking God for a highway to Hawaii because they didn’t like flying. God said that is not very logical do you want me to do anything else. Well I have been divorced 2 times and can’t understand women so explain women logic. God Replies: Do you want a 2 or 4 lane highway?
Did you actually listen to the broadcast? Your question was asked and answered. Was it wrong for Black men who believe in the church to not ask for priesthood? Was their request not granted? What is confusing to me is people who block out the answer over and over and over and then say that the answer doesn’t make sense. Take out your earplugs and listen before ask stupid questions like this.
Nadine,
No, I didn’t listen. So I will, touché. But I’m not plugging my ears to good responses. I just haven’t heard an answer that doesn’t revolve around the social/political realm. Everyone who supports this position uses the example of blacks and the priesthood. But it, like many other ares of change have been influenced by social pressure. Are we dealing with religion or are we dealing with a corporation? Wait, don’t answer that…I know the church is both haha. Here’s the problem I have with that. As someone who doesn’t believe in the church’s claims I approach this argument from a different perspective. If you want equality to infiltrate ALL aspects of social life I guess carry on, but how do you, and if not you someone else that believes, justify those changes in these men, whom you so dutifully pointed out can have their mines changed, and At the same time exercise confidence that the things in the past or the things in the present are Gods will? This is the part that’s HARD TO UNDERSTAND! How do YOU reconcile these seemingly contradictory circumstances? For me it’s easy, non of its true. Men being men…case closed. But if you believe (not saying you do) you’re comfortable with the idea that YOU can change How a church functions and ultimately what it believes? So, if the podcast explained that then I guess I’ll hear the answer in a little bit but if not, please indulge me.
No I didn’t listen to the podcast either! Heard you all before —– suffered then so why listen again to the same Mormon wormen crazy-talk. If I want to be entertained by brain-dead people I would go back to LDS church or general Priesthood/Conference are even better meetings to attend! I have heard what you people are saying and it makes no sense —– pure Mormon crazy-talk! The loving, powerful, etc. God that I worship gives all people whatever ability/power (priesthood is your term) they need in their lives. Get away from the “arm of the flesh” gods that you appear to worship and be subject to and worship and be subject to the one true and living God!
PS Thanks Kam3po for responding —- I believed I could get a logical straightforward answer without suffering through the podcast and Mormon double/crazy-talk. But no luck!
hkobeal,
Thx for the response. I never assume the people who support Ordain Women are non-believers. In fact, I’m sure most are. That’s what makes the whole issue confusing. I think they are mutually exclusive. I think if you believe the church’s “truth claims” and the narative of a living prophet then it makes sense to think things are the way they should be or the prophet would have heard something from The Lord to the contrary. So to want something that has been the standard (exceptions of a few women being ordain in early church history) fort he past 180 years seems to be at odds with the church’s position/claims…that God directs that church and revealed His order of doing things. Sorry, I guess women weren’t part of the PREISTHOOD part. But again, another reason I don’t believe. I don’t have issue with women calling attention to areas of inequality. I have issues when they do it in the realm of religion! And don’t fool yourself, this subject is ABSOLUTLEY political. Maybe not for you but certainly for Kelly and those running the organization. Why do the supporter want to be ordain? What would that do? Make them feel more “equal” in the church? This isn’t corporate America! This is religion! I don’t want you or any other women to feel like a second class citizen to any man but does having everything that a man has make you equal? It makes one a clone and this world needs diversity, not more of the same. Thx
Kam3po, so do you believe that God wanted for black people to be prohibited from entering the temple and for black men to be ordained until 1978? I simply cannot fathom believing in a God who would’ve wanted that, so that–in my mind–is a clear case of the church being run by men (literally) who thought it should be that way because they were that way.
But then they asked and prayed fervently and, lo and behold, God told them that it should not actually be that way. So then it was changed.
There are SO MANY things that have been changed over the history of the church. To me, that’s part of the beauty of the church: because we believe in modern-day revelation, we don’t have to remain constrained by out-of-date policies or beliefs. We can change them. We can progress. We can become better–both as individuals and as a church.
I don’t believe God would do that regarding your comment with Blacks and the Priesthood. And you’re also right that many things have been changed do to “social/political pressures”. This is exactly why it’s very difficult for me to except the church as “true”. If truth is dependent upon pressure than it doesn’t seem Like God cares to much about truths. So I agree with you 100% about things change but that doesn’t solve the conundrum of being a believer and still pushing for social changes. Why not push for different doctrines then? Like Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin or Christ and God are the same etc.? From your point of view (and I agree with it) enough questions/encouragement/press sir towards the brethren and “voila”, now you have a new teaching! I don’t know, I just don’t see how you make it work as a believer. But, you never answered why you want the priesthood. What would that say about you? Would you feel more equal or is it something else? Anyway. Thx for the reply.
Solution to your problem from an EXMO who has studied the Bible on the subject of Priesthood and believes in his personal relationship with God is significantly more important than any affiliation with a man led church: If you truly believe God wants you to hold the priesthood —– ordain yourselves or consider yourselves ordained by God to do whatever you need the priesthood to do. You have as much power to do God’s work now as any ordained LDS man maybe more because women seem to appear to be more spiritual and loving in general. You should have a much stronger relationship with God versus than with a church —- and depend on your relationship with God more than anything else as that is where any salvation/sanctification comes from. LDS priesthood is non-biblical! Christ is the one and only High Priest —– the tradition of the Old Testament was 1 living High Priest to do sacrifices and be between the people and God we have a living Christ high priest so no need for others. The Aaronic priesthood would be based on lineage but not needed because Christ came and died on the cross —- don’t need any blood sacrifices anymore. Of course the temple is not needed because at death of Christ the temple veil was torn because individuals became “temples that God could live in” and no need for past temple rituals, no need for structures. Church officers were not given any specific priesthood in the bible —– may have been set apart for callings and blessed.
They will never allow women in my lifetime unless it comes down to a decrease in tithing. I’m a women who would like to have this honor, but I don’t see them caving. The church is run by a good ol’ boys club. Sorry.
I have asked this question of Kate Kelly before with no response so I will ask it again…or to any of the other supporters of Ordain Women.
With your all equal, all inclusive mind set, do you and your supporters favor same sex marriages and/or feel that same sex couples should be allowed to be married in the temple?
Your whole argument for women being ordained is based on equality right? So how far do your equality demands extend??? Please share!
Sure, why not? I speak for myself. I am not gay and I am not a woman but I say, who am I to tell them how to run their lives or what to desire.
I would like to thank John and all of the guests who appeared in this podcast for speaking about this very important social issue. I am a married man and currently a non believing member, but I have the utmost respect for this issue. The church teaches lessons about equality but doesn’t quite show good faith in practicing it. I can see the plight of women seeking equality and involvement in this church, and support their cause whole heartily. I have personally seen the damage caused by these kinds of issues and am totally on board in making the effort to help where I can. It’s not about politics, it’s about spiritual equality and respect. I believe the church cares more about tradition than progressive modern thinking, and is scared of anything that resembles change. So keep up the good work and don’t give up!
Progressive modern thinking? Nothing excite those on the Left like the idea of change as if to hold on to “traditional values” is an archaic way of living. The church teaches equality before the law and equality in human worth, not in SOCIAL EQUALITY” meaning literally everything equal! Move to North Korea to see how well that works out. This is a religion. A religion that teaches traditional roles where those who believe in its ultimate claims are free to interpret things as they choose to. Why is it not obvious that the people (those leading the cause) are more motivated by their Left-leaning idiology then they are by there religion. It use to be the “Church” preached to the world but now it’s the world preaching to the “Church”. Tunflog, I like you also don’t believe but I feel like this movement is so disingenuous. Not by thoughtful people who really do care (such as your self) but because it is another way that political activist can continue there movement towards their MOTHER VALUE…Equality and I for one think LIBERTY is greater than social equality. Free to choose what you say, what you believe and where you go to church. What’s so wrong with a religion having differences? Seriously. There’s all men’s clubs, all girls clubs and so forth. So a religion teaches that only men hold the priesthood….this is terrible? Why? Now, if some females feel less important that’s unfortunate. Should I feel left out if I don’t meet the churches standards of worthiness and can’t pass the sacrament? I don’t. It’s a standard and that’s that. I don’t feel like God loves me any less. I just assume its man made, this is the standard of the institution and I don’t qualify. End of issue.
We have precedent in our church for the laity lobbying the leadership for change they consider consistent with God’s will. Emma asking Joseph about tobacco and alcohol, for example. However, the Ordain Women effort seems to want to employ some methods of political activism to embarrass the church into change. That seems to go beyond believers asking their leaders to inquire of the Lord for change and exercising faith that God is listening.
Political activism? Examples?
Ummmm, yeah J…like standing outside of the conference center asking for permission to attend knowing very well they won’t be let in…? It’s both political (women rights/equality) and it’s actively engaged (activism). Want more?
What is wrong with that? And, do you think they are doing it just to “embarrass the church”?
What’s wrong with that? It’s a church that operates in the realm of belief/faith! It’s completely different from other types of institutions/corporations and doesn’t have the same standards (one of the reasons it taxed differently for example). As for trying to embarrass the church…probably not but I assure you that Kate Kelly’s politics shape her religious view more than the other way around and by default she has caused some unwelcomed attention. Look, I don’t care. I’m just sick of all these political podcast replacing the ones I enjoyed listening to during the “good ol days” when they actually had good interviews covering religious subjects. I want to hear about theology on mormon stories…if I want to hear about feminist causes, gay rights or any other politically social issue I’ll listen to [insert your preference of political forum].
This movement is smoke in mirrors. People influencing the way a religion is ran and then they want to act like it has a shred of credibility to stand up and say its TRUE. Choose which one it is and then live with the results or find a religion that suits your fancy. I don’t believe and I have no problem showing up to a mormon church…listening to what they teach and then going home. Doesn’t bother me in the least. I feel the same way when I hear teachings of Judiasm or other faiths. It’s faith! Whom am I to judge. I don’t have enough hubris to tell them I think something should be a “X or Y”. It’s RELGION. Crazy
J – I did not say this was “just” to embarrass the church. Ordain Women appear to me to have a legitimate concern for improving the faith experience of their adherents. I think it is perfectly appropriate for them to lobby church leadership to consider changes. However, when that lobbying starts to include methods that seem designed to apply public social pressure and embarrassment (rather than – can you ask God to consider this change?), it makes it more difficult for church leadership to make a change. The leadership cannot be perceived as making changes as simply a reaction to public pressure on a contemporary cultural fad. Their job and their credibility with the body of the church rests on administering God’s will for the church, even if it is not popular.
That is why I think the I think the public protest methods are bad for the dialogue, they are bad for the church, and are bad for the movement. It is only good for the media, who will have a field day with “victimized oppressed Mormon women vs. patriarchal white guys in suits” stories.
Political activism in terms of methods. Organize a rally, do something to get media attention to market your cause as an oppressed minority looking for “equality.”
I really liked the Jaredite Scripture analogy. The Bro of Jared asked about air and light in the tight barges. The Lord gave an answer for the air. They could have floated across the sea in the dark, but instead …. The Bro of Jared went back to the Lord and told him that it was really important for them to have light, and they came to a solution. She likens asking for the Priesthood to asking for light in the barges. We can get by without it, but how much better to have it.
The only thing that motivates LDS inc. is Money. If you have 100 or 1000 families (more the better if you really are convinced God wants this) that will commit to not paying tithing for a year and/or not participating in church —— that would probably get even Tommy down on his knees!
Touché Mike…well put.