Introduction and Meet the Family

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 154

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John Dehlin [00:00:17] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. My name is John Dehlin. I'm very excited to have you with us today for a very special feature. Today we have with us a long time listener approached me a few weeks ago about discussing the issue of divorce. He comes from an LDS family, and that family experienced a divorce several years ago.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] And he felt like it could be interesting for us to bring all of his family onto the podcast, including both his parents who are now in other marriages, to talk about divorce and several aspects of divorce from, you know, how it's affected the family, how the LDS Church did or didn't play a role, lessons that can be learned, and where everybody is today.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] So that is going to be today's topic on the podcast. And I would like to do a roll call. And beginning in a patriarchal order, I would like to first introduce Papa. Papa, thank you for joining us today.

Papa [00:01:31] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Papa is the former patriarch of this family. Mama, are you there?

Mama [00:01:39] I am.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] Thanks for joining us, Mom.

Mama [00:01:43] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And Glenn, you're the grand master of this orchestration.

Glenn [00:01:50] Yeah, I prefer puppet master, but I'll take Grant.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Puppet master. Okay. Glenn, thanks for joining us and for coming up with this idea. Jeff, Glenn's brother, Are you there, Jeff? Yes, I am, Jeff, thanks for coming on. And we have Melissa.

Melissa [00:02:08] Hey, that's me.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Is there any sibling missing?

Glenn [00:02:13] No, we.

Papa [00:02:14] There's nothing we can do about it.

Glenn [00:02:15] Yeah, we have. We have a younger brother that was between me and Jeff who passed away after just two weeks. Yeah.

Mama [00:02:24] Okay. Only younger two.

Glenn [00:02:26] He's probably with us in spirit. We feel that from time to time. But, yeah, no, we're all complete.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] But no living. No living sibling.

Glenn [00:02:35] No.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Okay. And we're spanning the globe, aren't we? We're not only in one country, we're in multiple countries. So you guys have gone to extra effort to be together. So thanks for joining us. I guess I thought it would make sense to begin by just giving a little bit of history. So why don't we start with Papa just telling us a tiny bit about himself being as generic as he'd like to be.

Papa [00:03:09] Papa is senior citizen at this point. Active in the church all his life. Parents, grandparents, great grandparents, active and involved in the church all their lives. Graduated from byu. I'm an attorney by profession, trial attorney by choice. And how much more do you want?

John Dehlin [00:03:36] That sounds good. Thank You. How about you, Mom?

Mama [00:03:41] Yes. I also grew up in a multi generational LDS family and family crossed the plains, all of that active in the church and have a strong testimony. I also have had a lot of education. I have a doctorate and graduated from asu. And what else do you want to know?

John Dehlin [00:04:10] And mom and dad, would you guys characterize yourselves as sort of literal true believing types within the church?

Mama [00:04:20] I don't know. That's a hard question. Literal true believing.

Jeff [00:04:25] Let me answer that question for you, Mom. Yes.

Mama [00:04:27] Yeah. Okay. My children say yes, and I think that. And I am. But I. But I.

Melissa [00:04:35] But mom is supporting Democrats, so there

Mama [00:04:37] is a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] So she's suspect.

Mama [00:04:43] I am a delegate to the state convention for the Democrats, so point five.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] I'm a little. I'm having second thoughts, actually.

Glenn [00:04:56] How would you classify yourself, Dad?

Papa [00:04:59] I wouldn't classify myself as a typical true believer. I don't consider myself to be a member of the sheep that follow along blindly. I consider myself very active in the church and very much a believer in the church, but not because somebody else is both.

Melissa [00:05:18] I don't think that's what they meant.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] I just mean this is the one and only church.

Papa [00:05:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Okay.

Glenn [00:05:29] And like when I. If I try to classify you, Dad, I would say that you kind of. That you come out of The Bruce R. McConkie, Hugh Nibley kind of model of how to explore Mormonism and interpret Mormonism. And not to suggest that you're following blindly, but that's kind of how I. If I have to characterize where I kind of put you in that area. Do you think that's fair?

Papa [00:05:56] I think it's very flattering.

Glenn [00:05:58] Okay, well, that speaks volumes.

Papa [00:06:04] Yeah. I like to test and prod and come to my own conclusions. And I like to go outside of what's normal mainstream. For example, I don't know too many people that go looking for pseudepigrapha or septuagints, but I do.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Yeah, that's good.

The Story Behind the Divorce

Mama [00:06:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] And mom, where did you and Papa meet?

Mama [00:06:35] We met at an institute dance at asu.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] How cute.

Glenn [00:06:49] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] And then how comfortable are we about talking about some of the things that maybe led to the divorce?

Mama [00:07:01] Probably rather not.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] So no explanation of that. Just kind of.

Jeff [00:07:09] And then it was.

Melissa [00:07:12] And it came to pass. That.

Jeff [00:07:14] And it came to pass.

Melissa [00:07:17] Well, you know, what if maybe, I mean, I think that would be difficult for mom or dad to say, you know, their side of things, but maybe if one of us as a child, you know, maybe a third party observer, kind of could give, you know, good and bad on both sides. So it didn't feel like it was just one side being represented

Guest 2 [00:07:41] or.

Glenn [00:07:41] No, I'm all for it. You know, for me, I think one of the things to say at the very beginning is that here we've got five people who each have a different experience with this, and we each have our own perspective. And in some cases, those perspectives clash. And, you know, so one. One of the things, for me at least, that we've had to do is figure out how to. How to love and coexist and not be judgmental in those areas where there's a conflict and clashing. So I think we need to be careful with those areas of conflict. But I also think it's really important to not ignore it.

Mama [00:08:26] Well, and I guess that's the. You know, where we are is that. That really hasn't been talked about a lot, at least among any of us. And so to talk about it here for the first time would be pretty hard. And I don't see this as a family therapy session. It's just something where we're telling our stories kind of thing. And so I'm not totally opposed to what you're suggesting, Missy. I think that could maybe work, but sure, I mean, I'm open to ideas that people have. So, I mean, I'm not wanting to be closed. I'm just trying to see. I mean, what this conversation is about tonight, I think, is trying to figure out where the boundaries are and what we're trying to accomplish and how best to do that and still have everybody be in a good place.

Glenn [00:09:18] And I have conversations with. With you, mom, and I've had a few lately with you, dad, several with Missy, some with Jeff that I would love to go back and listen to because the things that you say are awesome. And then it just. It's kind of gone. Like, I can remember them, I can recall them, but to be able to go back and re. Listen to them and have that be something that I could share with my kids would be really valuable to me, especially when we're discussing these kind of topics. And not that we have to agree on what our combined story is, but even just that journey of searching for meaning, I think is really interesting. And I like.

Melissa [00:10:02] Well, I think it is important at least to just address that. I mean, I think a lot of times when people hear of families having a divorce, their mind automatically will think, like, oh, well, what was wrong? Who cheated? Was it abuse? You know, you think of those kinds of, you know, really big Dramatic things. And in our situation, there wasn't anything like that, which makes it, you know, emotionally a little bit trickier. But I think that could be an important part for people to know that it was, you know, just maybe simply, you know, seems to be incompatibility or however we want to just say it, even that way, just so that it's not like there was some horrific event that caused a split. I think that even that information could be useful.

Glenn [00:10:47] And I've had conversations both with dad and mom as you've kind of worked through the dissonance that the church teaches one thing about marriage and divorce, but what you've actually experienced through your divorce, in your current marriages, you're in a much better, happier place, and you're thankful. I mean, how can you say that you're thankful for divorce? That seems so contrary to anything that we hear in the church and the messages that we have of families can be together forever. But here you have this experience. So how do you reconcile that? And in your case, mom, because there wasn't any obvious reason that people on the outside could see, you know, why you made the decision to divorce.

Glenn [00:11:38] You had to carry all that alone. And, you know, you felt very judged by us, by me, people around you, and it was a very lonely experience for you. If I can imagine that there might be somebody in that same place that you're in right now, hearing your experience, going through it, that could take some hope from it.

Glenn [00:12:00] And again, I don't think it's crucial, like John says, to get into a lot of details. But the point that Missy makes is really, I think, important because, well, I'm good with that.

Mama [00:12:09] I'm good with that. Kind of broad brush stroke is fine. I'm fine with that.

Melissa [00:12:13] Dan, you've been quiet.

Papa [00:12:16] That's right. I'm listening.

Glenn [00:12:18] What do you think?

John Dehlin [00:12:21] What's the score.

Mama [00:12:26] On which game?

Papa [00:12:29] I don't even know who's got the ball.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Yeah, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Well, let me.

Papa [00:12:34] Let me. Let me throw my two cents inward for just a minute. John, I'm a trial lawyer. I've Learned over the 40 years I've been doing this that you get five people in a room who all experienced the same event. And if you get the same story that contrived it, if you get variations on a theme, probably true.

Papa [00:12:55] People remember and they experience an event based upon their history. And so it's logical that different people viewing or living through the same event are going to have different memories and expectations and thoughts concerning that. Event. And you're going to hear that, I suspect, if we go forward tonight, get into any kind of detail. So that's item number one.

Papa [00:13:27] Item number two, as far as I'm concerned. I'm here because my children want me here, presumably to ask questions of me, to get answers from me, or to hear me chime in. But, I mean, it's a trite phrase, and I hate to use it, but I've moved on. I don't. I don't think I need this session to put either my physical life, my marital life, or present or past, or my spiritual life into any kind of perspective. I'm comfortable with who and where I am, but I'm more than happy to try and assist the kids if they have questions or they want to know how I dealt with things.

Papa [00:14:18] I'm happy to give my experience, but I don't think I need to be here, you know, to tell my story or to get any kind of a specific point across. I'm here to listen and answer your question. End of.

Melissa [00:14:32] So answer the question. Are you comfortable with what we've just talked about? I love you. I don't. I didn't mean that sound like, funny,

Mama [00:14:45] like we asked a question.

Melissa [00:14:47] And I appreciate what you said. I mean, I don't think any of us are really doing it for. I mean, I think we all feel comfortable and we've all moved on, and I think that's one reason why we're all able to be here and be

Mama [00:14:58] able to discuss it.

Melissa [00:15:00] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't think it's any, you know, therapy for any of us, but it is important to make sure that what we discuss, everybody feels comfortable with the information shared, you know, and that's what we're just wanting to know. If you're feeling comfortable with what we

Papa [00:15:14] were talking as you. As you've asked that question. No.

Melissa [00:15:20] Care to expound?

Papa [00:15:22] I did.

Jeff [00:15:25] He wants to just answer questions, yes or no. Is that what I understood from that?

Papa [00:15:31] No, no, no. I'll explain. Well, Missy, I thought I gave an explanation. Maybe I should have prefaced the explanation by saying, no, I'm not totally comfortable with it because I don't.

Melissa [00:15:42] But you're willing to do it because you think that we would be able to be beneficial. Is that what you're saying?

Papa [00:15:48] Yeah. I don't think I need it. I don't think it's going to do any benefit for your mother necessarily. But if it helps you kids, I'm more than happy. And if it helps your mother, I'm more than happy.

Mama [00:15:59] Okay.

Papa [00:16:01] But would I choose to spend my evening this way? No. It's a little awkward for me, and it's a little painful for me, but I'm willing to do it. So as you've asked that question, no, but I'm willing to do it.

Melissa [00:16:13] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] That's fair.

Papa [00:16:17] Having thrown a bucket of cold water

John Dehlin [00:16:18] on everything, you know, that is how I would expect all of you to feel. So when Glenn proposed this to me, I was like, whoa. Really? Like, really?

Papa [00:16:33] Yeah.

Melissa [00:16:34] We were all like that a little bit.

Glenn [00:16:37] Well, and I've got to say, Dad, I felt a little bit sad listening to what you said, and I accept it all. I understand it all. But as you have moved on and as mom has moved on, I don't feel like we've moved on together. And I don't know even what that means to say.

Glenn [00:16:59] What does it mean for you to be a part of my life and for me to be a part of your life. But especially the last few years have felt strained, and so there is an element of therapy for me in this that I do feel like there's wounds that can be healed and that this is a means to that end.

Glenn [00:17:21] So I appreciate you coming on and doing this, and I know it's not something that. That you're comfortable with and maybe don't see any personal value in it for yourself, but I would hope that as far as our relationship, you and I, and maybe extending to Jeff and Missy as well as we go forward, you know, you and mom are divorced from each other, but from the kids. We're still part of both of your lives, and it's trying to figure out how to be a part of those lives that's been kind of difficult over the last 13 years.

Papa [00:17:57] Well, I think you've heard me say virtually the same thing you just said. Your mother and I are divorced from each other. But you're our children. You're always going to be my children. She's always your mother, and I'm always going to be your father. And just because we didn't last doesn't mean that our relationship, meaning the children and the parents, won't last or shouldn't last. Yeah, but your mother and I don't have anything in common with one another anymore. Otherwise, we're human beings and we live here on the planet. And I don't really want towards her. I doubt that she does towards me, but.

Glenn [00:18:31] Well, you've got three things in common.

Papa [00:18:34] We have. Yes. We have a lot of things in common in that context, Glenn, but I

Glenn [00:18:43] don't know you and mom to be interacting and going out for lunch or anything like that. I'm not that expecting that. Jeff, you've been quiet. What do you think about all this? Because you're kind of on the outside in a couple different ways. You've been outside of Arizona maybe longer than any of us, and having left the church when you were 17, 18 years old, have kind of been outside from that point of view as well. So what are your thoughts on doing this?

Jeff [00:19:12] I mean, you know, this is. It kind of opens up a can of worms for me. But, you know, I like what you're. The way that you put it, Glenn, is that, you know, we have all moved on. And I mean, that's goes without saying. And have we all moved on together? You know, maybe some of us more than others. I mean, I feel that I have a good relationship with both mom and dad. And I know that there have been issues that everybody's had. You know, I mean, that's just life. But everybody deals with their issues a little bit differently. And that's why when you had proposed this, I mean, I think this is great. I mean, when was the last time that we all spoke together?

Glenn [00:19:55] Exactly.

Jeff [00:19:55] Yeah.

Melissa [00:19:57] It made me sad when I read that email, like, thinking of us as all, like, I just don't think of us as a family, like, in the traditional sense of it. Like, I love all of you and obviously we are family, but, like, just, you know, the family, it just doesn't exist anymore.

Mama [00:20:14] But I guess one of the questions I'm having, and maybe it can be a point of discussion, is, Glenn, you said, what is your idea of. What is it that feels missing to you that you're hoping to achieve through this in terms of family, what is it that you would like to get?

Jeff [00:20:36] We want our mom and dad together again.

Melissa [00:20:42] We're laughing, but that's really not funny.

Jeff [00:20:45] Oh, it is funny. At this point, at this point in our life. I mean, come on. What's not funny about it is the. The hurt that I see that Curtis has when he tells me those same words right there. I mean, that's right. That's not funny, because that is real. But that's also fresh. And it's also, who's Curtis?

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Okay.

Glenn [00:21:06] Yeah, yeah, Jeff. Yeah,

Jeff [00:21:11] but that's also coming from an immature point of view. Somebody who just doesn't have the life experience to understand that there is a real change that's going to happen. And life's not easy. So, I mean, yeah, we can laugh about that.

Mama [00:21:29] Come on.

Glenn [00:21:30] And that's a good answer, Jeff, to the question that mom asked me. I mean, like, what is it that I'm wanting to get out of her family? I want to be able to laugh at it. I mean, I want to be able to. To have things on top of the table and talk about them, laugh about them, without hurting people's feelings with it. Because in the past, the way that I've dealt with things have been hurtful, and I don't want to be hurtful, but I also don't want to be silent and just bury things. So I want to find a way to help, a healthy way to discuss the way that this has impacted me and just know that I'm heard. And then moving forward, we can joke about it, we can laugh about it and realize that it's not threatening.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Okay, dad, are there A, things you wish you had done differently or B, lessons that you learned or regrets that you have related to the divorce that you're comfortable talking about?

Papa [00:22:44] John, that's a difficult question for me to be able to answer, but I'm comfortable in trying to give you an answer.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] Okay, so did you both have to each find a way to reconcile why did. Why did God tell you to get married, and yet it didn't work out?

Mama [00:23:03] Yes, I did.

Papa [00:23:06] No, not really.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Why not?

Papa [00:23:14] You kind of cut to the nub of the experience that I had as a result of the divorce and during the divorce. And the nub of it is that my faith, if you will, or my concepts were reinforced mightily with respect to this concept of free agency, moral agency, if you will, that people can change. They can have experiences that are genuine and legitimate, but over the period of years, their attitudes change, circumstances change, and that which could have been no longer is comfortable. For example, or for a literal comment, we tossed around the phrase families can be forever.

Papa [00:24:02] And most people, I guess, focus on the word forever, and I focus on the word can. It's not a for sure thing. It takes work. It takes effort. It takes cooperation. It takes long suffering. It takes enduring to the end. It's not a guaranteed for sure thing. It's just a beginning. And it's a concept that has great potential, but it doesn't get realized without a lot of work.

Glenn [00:24:34] So, dad, can I cut you off here just for a minute? Because I can imagine if I'm mom and I'm listening to this, that I might be thinking, oh, is he blaming me for being the one that changed or being the one that, you know, didn't stick with it. Do you see, like going back to John's earlier question, that there were things that you could have done or should have done differently in that to make it so the families can be together forever?

Papa [00:25:07] Short answer. Yes. Explanation. I think I've told each one of you, Satan, except John, over the years, that I. I'm confident that I could have done something better. I could have done probably lots of things better. I. I'm confident that I am to blame in major respects for the breakup. I'm not sure what they are. I don't know what they are. And that's why I said earlier, John, in response to your question, I'm willing to talk about my perceptions of what happened, but I'm not really sure what happened. All I know is that at points in time, things weren't going the way they were supposed to be going. And, you know, is it a blaming of your mother? I don't want to necessarily blame, but the facts are the fact.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Okay, so one thing, that one theme that just comes out for me, and this comes out for me in all the counseling and therapy that I do, is that there are some families that talk about everything, and there are some families that barely talk about anything and just have major elephants in the room for decades, and it just never gets talked about. Is that a topic worth discussing here?

Melissa [00:26:32] I think we are discussing the elephant, Right.

Mama [00:26:35] I think it's what Glenn's trying to get to is, let's talk about the elephant. At least. Is that what I'm getting, Glenn, from you?

Glenn [00:26:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because I think that there are certain. Certain things that we're able to talk about and certain things that we've tried to talk about and without much success. I don't. I don't know that we're one of those families. At least my experience hasn't been that we're one of those families that just hides things and doesn't talk. But I don't. I don't know that the environment has always been very receptive to that.

Mama [00:27:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] With either parent or.

Glenn [00:27:13] With either parent, with my dad more than my mom. But I also feel like the skills of being able to deliver a message in a safe way haven't been there either on my part. Like, there was years ago, maybe seven, eight years ago, I wrote this essay that was just very biting. You know, it was this. I was at a creative writing program, and it was the satirical essay, and it just kind of like took on my dad and took on my mom and brought all these things up that Neither of them appreciated.

Glenn [00:27:53] I think Jeff and Missy liked it, but it was something that was not healthy to do. I mean, for me at the time, I felt a need to, like, lash out and express it, but it wasn't done in a way that created any kind of healing. And I think, you know, I'm encouraged that we're all able to be on together, to have this discussion, to feel like we've been able to overcome that and that I've regained some trust with my parents, and they can feel safe in the way that I do that. So I don't think it's just on the.

Glenn [00:28:33] That we haven't been willing to talk about it, but maybe haven't known how to talk about it in a good way or how to receive it in

Melissa [00:28:40] a good way and definitely just never talked about it all together. You know, I mean, I think that we've probably had conversations with each other about the things, but not something where we're all giving equal input.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Okay.

Mama [00:28:58] In other words, I think we're all in a little healthier place now than we have been before.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Yeah, that's great. So just from a tactical standpoint, was this amicable, or did one leave first and the other.

Glenn [00:29:19] It's your turn, Mom.

Melissa [00:29:20] I was gonna say, Glenn, it's your turn, Mom.

Mama [00:29:25] I was just waiting to. Listen. I left.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Okay.

Mama [00:29:29] And it wasn't amicable?

Papa [00:29:32] Well, I would say that it was ugly. Nobody fought or screamed. There were no blows thrown on either side to either party. No of the scene, words or gestures.

Melissa [00:29:46] But emotionally, very.

Glenn [00:29:47] Yeah, there were verbal and emotional blows and sometimes still are a little bit.

Papa [00:29:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Of course. I mean. I mean, the fact that both of you are on the phone now shows, you know, amazingly low percentile in terms of amicability, I would say, but.

Glenn [00:30:11] Well, I'm pretty confident to say that both my parents. Current marriages will last. Yeah, my mom's on third, and Dad's on second, and just from what I see. And it's just a small piece. Very compatible together and in very good place.

Melissa [00:30:28] Agreed?

Mama [00:30:29] Agreed.

Jeff [00:30:31] Agreed.

Melissa [00:30:33] Dad, you better say something.

Jeff [00:30:37] I think we lost him or something.

Papa [00:30:40] I'm here, taking it all in. You're absolutely correct.

The Marriage Before the Split

John Dehlin [00:30:45] So I guess we don't need to dig too much into the early years of the marriage, because this is mostly about the divorce. But let me give both papa and mom each a chance to just reflect a little bit on some of the high points or some of the main signposts in the marriage prior to the divorce. To the extent that you're comfortable talking and again, you can be as long or as brief as you want. So, Papa, any degree to which you want to describe the marriage, just to give our listeners some color for the marriage prior to the divorce?

Papa [00:31:25] Well, the marriage prior to the divorce I would characterize really as two marriages. The first 20 or so years, I thought were very good and rewarding and mutually rewarding, mutually fulfilling. The last seven or so were not so fulfilling, not so enjoyable. Okay, you want detail?

John Dehlin [00:31:56] No, that's a good start. Mom, would you add or detract anything from that?

Mama [00:32:02] Yeah, my experience was different than that. I would say that there was a desire on my part for the great bulk of the marriage, easily from the beginning, wanting to communicate things that didn't get heard. And so I didn't see it as two marriages. I just saw it getting more and more challenging.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] So going from not so good to worse over the 20x years.

Mama [00:32:28] And I don't want to necessarily depict that, and I don't want to say that every minute was like that, but, you know, because that's not true. But my experience was different.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Sure, I guess. Let me start by backing up a bit. Papa, do you feel like you sort of made a specific prayer to Heavenly Father to confirm whether or not this was someone you were supposed to marry?

Papa [00:32:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] And do you feel like you got that answer?

Papa [00:33:01] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] And how about you, Mom?

Mama [00:33:05] Same thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] Okay, so you both feel like this was something Heavenly Father led you to do?

Papa [00:33:12] I don't know that he led me to do it as much as I was moving in that direction, sought confirmation and believed that I received it.

Glenn [00:33:23] Let me ask a follow up to that. I'm curious, if you don't mind me jumping in, John, with you, mom, when you received that, was it the first time or did it take a couple of times to get that confirmation?

Mama [00:33:37] It was the third time that he had asked me to marry him because I'd said no the first two times. And. And the third time I asked if we prayed about it, and it seemed like it felt good, so.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] And how old were you? Mom, how old were you?

Mama [00:33:54] I was 19.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Okay. And you? Pop? 26. 26. Oh, that's a seven year difference.

Mama [00:34:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Okay. All right. Mom, do you look back and feel like you might have been a little too young to make that decision?

Mama [00:34:11] Oh, sure. That's one of the thoughts I've had.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Maybe it was a little bit too early.

Mama [00:34:17] 19's awfully young.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Did you give Melissa different advice when she was starting?

Melissa [00:34:26] I was wondering if she was trying to be politically correct. Because I was also married at 19. But we can get into that more later. I felt that through seeing what my parents had gone through that I was wise enough to make that choice at that age. Although I can still say it's definitely too young. Happy things have worked out, but it's definitely too young.

Mama [00:34:47] But I think you need to tell him the story of what I told you.

Melissa [00:34:52] It's only funny to you, Mom.

Glenn [00:34:55] I want to hear it.

Melissa [00:34:57] No. She always said that I had to be 23 or have a degree to get married.

Mama [00:35:04] And I told her that I was playing tape when she was asleep at night saying 23 or a degree. So it was subliminal.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Do you know what? I tell my daughters the same thing, and you're not giving me much hope, Melissa.

Melissa [00:35:16] Well, I was just very clever, according to Mom. And so although I was only 19 years old in age, I had acquired a degree of my trade. I'm a hairstylist, so I gone to beauty school, and I had my degree, and we were married on May 23rd, coming up on our ninth anniversary.

Mama [00:35:37] So it was 23 and a degree.

Melissa [00:35:40] I just.

Guest 2 [00:35:41] I'm a loophole.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] You're playing just the legal part. Yeah. That's your daughter coming out in you, Melissa. That's your father coming out in you. Sorry.

Mama [00:35:51] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] Can I ask you guys one question that's just. Just informed by my experience?

Mama [00:36:00] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] As I've contemplated divorce and remarriage myself,

Papa [00:36:06] I

John Dehlin [00:36:09] have this impression that if I were to divorce my wife because of ways that we couldn't get along or irreconcilable differences and I were to remarry, I could easily see the same types of issues that I had a problem with with my first wife just eventually reoccurring and sort of me fleeing from a situation to avoid some of the hard work of just making a relationship work and realizing that I fled something that just returned in a different way with a different spouse. And I'm wondering whether either of you experienced something like that, where you felt like, oh, this isn't working. I'm going to go find somebody else.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] And you either got the same type of bag in some ways and had to deal with the same type of demons, or you got a mixed bag that was comparable, just a different set of issues. Do either of those resonate with either of you, or has it been like hell and now you're in heaven?

Mama [00:37:27] Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Which one? Which one?

Mama [00:37:31] Well, that's strong and not kind, and I don't want to not be kind. But the latter Is more the truth, but I'm trying not to be that strong.

Melissa [00:37:40] I think you guys are more compatible with your current spouses.

Mama [00:37:43] We're definitely more compatible. You know, the kinds of things you're talking about, I think, are things that people that happen and people often worry about. You know, my rebound marriage was like 180 degrees different than my first marriage. There couldn't have been anything more different. Hardly.

Glenn [00:38:02] And that's probably something that we need to talk about a little, but probably not a lot. Right, Mom?

Mama [00:38:07] Yeah, that works. It could promote the CD, though.

Glenn [00:38:12] Well, I was going to ask, is

Melissa [00:38:14] the CD still at Deseret Book?

Mama [00:38:15] I mean, hey, it is in Cedar City.

Glenn [00:38:24] Should we ask John to use any of the hand track as bumper music for the podcast?

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Oh, my gosh.

Mama [00:38:29] That would be awesome. No, it wouldn't. He's dying. Somebody's gotta tell him. Mom.

Glenn [00:38:40] You want to do it, Jeff?

Jeff [00:38:41] No, no, no, no. You got it, Glenn.

Glenn [00:38:44] So her second marriage was a guy that just was a really interesting experience. It only lasted three years.

Mama [00:38:54] And he was bipolar and a cocaine addict. Does that tell you?

John Dehlin [00:38:58] Yeah, right. What was the first part?

Glenn [00:39:00] I heard the second part, he was bipolar.

Mama [00:39:02] Bipolar.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Oh, yeah. That's a problem.

Jeff [00:39:05] And they crack, not cocaine. Crack. It's the same thing, but it's different.

Mama [00:39:10] Okay, well, thanks, Jeff.

Jeff [00:39:12] Let's just clarify.

Glenn [00:39:14] So during their time being. Wait, during their time together, they made a Christian music CD with music that he had written when he was in prison.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] Awesome.

Glenn [00:39:26] Yeah,

Mama [00:39:30] great story.

Glenn [00:39:31] And he sounds like a Muppet. And when. We teased her mercifully about it and mercifully.

Mama [00:39:47] Mercilessly.

Glenn [00:39:48] Oh, mercilessly about it. No, I was merciful.

Mama [00:39:52] No, you were.

Glenn [00:39:52] No, you should have knew what I

Mama [00:39:53] was really thinking to your face.

Melissa [00:39:54] Yeah.

Glenn [00:40:00] So that marriage lasted about three years, was it, Mom?

Mama [00:40:05] Well, it actually lasted about two, but then the divorce took a year. So. Yeah. The one that I'm in now is so incredibly compatible. And things that I think that I learned, that I think that I repented through, things that I learned with are so in place, and I've been very blessed. So that's how I feel.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Okay.

Glenn [00:40:31] From an outsider looking at both of you, I see kind of the compatibility issues as. As being key to where you find satisfaction in your relationship. And I think even mom with your merit, with his bipolar crack problems, I think you probably engaged with him more maybe in some kind of an intimate connection way than maybe you did with dad.

Mama [00:41:04] I did, I did.

Glenn [00:41:05] And that's my guess. And I don't know dad, that, that you like, really understand that part of it from your time with mom, but I see with your relationship that you do both have that very like, together intimate mindset and definitely something that mom has with.

Glenn [00:41:33] So I think Missy and Jeff and I in our marriages have all asked ourselves the same questions that you asked yourself, John, if, you know, if we continue in the marriage or if we leave, is it going to be a fix to our problems to bring in another person or are we just bringing our baggage in and we're going to have the same problems with somebody else? And one of the, one of the troubling things maybe is that we look at our parents example and having another person has been a good fix for them. And you know, Jeff's just recently divorced and we're all hoping that he'll find somebody that will be a better fit for him.

Glenn [00:42:20] You know, my wife and I have struggled and we'll probably continue to struggle in certain areas, but I think we're better than, than we have been in the past. And Missy's had her struggles as well, so we're still trying to hold onto it. But that fear of just taking our baggage with somebody else, that the pot has been totally, you know, the lid has totally been lifted off of that pot and we could see, oh, maybe with somebody else there would be a better fit. We can see that in our parents examples.

Reconciling Church Teachings With Divorce

John Dehlin [00:42:52] Yeah, because that's an important question then that comes from all this is how do you reconcile the church's emphasis on the importance of marriage, of eternal families, of the solemn covenant, and the fact that you both were told by God to get married with the notion that through your divorce you found people you're more compatible with and are much happier about. And no harm, no foul, you're both sealed to your spouses.

Mama [00:43:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] So, like what?

Glenn [00:43:27] So they just had to have me,

Mama [00:43:29] John and me and Jeff and Mark.

Jeff [00:43:34] I could have been thrown away, I think. No,

Melissa [00:43:38] no, I mean, I think John too, that's. I mean, speaking from my own experience, that's one thing that's been really hard for me and my faith struggles is if I can believe that. I feel that the family ever really was, you know, like ordained. Our family specifically, like ordained of God. Or was it. I can see very much, you know, cultural and social pressures put on, you know, the young marriage. And that happens a lot in the church.

Glenn [00:44:09] So for me it's been a lot about, you know, the Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, all these things she'll give the experience, you know, and some things that you said in earlier podcasts, John, about why stay in the church if you're feeling out of place? You know, what better place to practice Christian values than with people that make you nuts? You know, and so, like, I look at marriage, you know, sometimes when I'm in those places where I am feeling like I'm going nuts, I go, okay, this is a good laboratory to be in to. To say, how am I going to react to this? And what kind of person am I going to become with these experiences? So that's how the gospel has helped me with that.

Mama [00:45:03] And to me, part of what I see in it, too, of how I make sense of it, is that the atonement is very real. And it's not just something for after this life, but it's something that can bless us right now and.

Mama [00:45:17] And the growing learning, willingness to repent and learn as we know, come to know who we are more that, you know, life isn't static. And I think too often in the church, there's the idea that you have to hold on so tight to the rod that you're in a straight jacket. Instead of that, you're recognizing, you know what. There's going to be times when, I mean, there really is need to call on the Lord constantly, and he really is a presence and does love and bless us no matter what. If we try, I just, you know, all we have to do is kind of try a little bit. That's kind of where I come on it.

How the Children First Learned of the Divorce

John Dehlin [00:45:59] Okay, well, we talked beforehand about not necessarily needing to get into the actual, you know, events that immediately led to the divorce, but let's just ask how. How was divorce first communicated to the children? Do any of you want to tell the story of how that was communicated? When and how?

Glenn [00:46:27] Well, I'll tell my experience with it and then, you know, let Jeff and Missy have a stab at it. But for me, when. It was kind of a slow process, and when I got back from my mission, I remember I'd only been home for a few days, and I was having a discussion with my mom late at night, and I said something like, you know, it really amazes me that you and dad have been able to stay together, because I see that your personalities are so different. But I'm very impressed with that. And the way that I remember it, it was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back kind of thing.

Glenn [00:47:09] And she just broke down and unloaded a lot of the grief and the struggles that she was feeling and kind of let me in on a piece of My parents marriage that I. I kind of perceived, but I wasn't completely aware of. And so over the next several years, as you know, they struggled to make things work. There would be times where she would talk to me about what was going on.

Glenn [00:47:41] And it was maybe three years or so after I got back from my mission that they actually made the decision to divorce and went through counseling for maybe a year, if I remember right. I was up at BYU while a lot of this was going on. And when they came for my graduation at byu, I think that was probably a really dark trip for all of them. You know, Jeff, Missy as well, driving up in the van, probably a lot of tension. And my dad and I went out one night and had a really long discussion just walking through one of the neighborhoods in Provo.

Glenn [00:48:25] And it was really one of the first heart to hearts I felt like I ever had with my dad where he was vulnerable and expressed his fear of what was happening with his marriage. And I started developing a closer relationship with my dad than I had before for, as a result of that. But I was also really disappointed in, you know, what I was seeing as my mom distancing herself and moving away.

Glenn [00:48:53] And so I got a little bit angry at that point. And maybe it was a year, within a year that they physically separated, and then maybe a few months after that that the divorce went through. But that was my experience with it.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Were you angry at your mom, Glenn?

Glenn [00:49:13] Yeah, well, I was angry. I mean, I had anger for both of them, you know, like, I didn't hold either of them blameless. And, you know, I look back on myself at that time and I think, you know, I was much younger and less mature and very judgmental in my attitude towards both of them.

Glenn [00:49:35] But I. I remember I was talking to my mom on the phone once and said that I had had a dream or some kind of image in my head of my dad standing on a mountain and being, like, victorious that whatever there was that was inside of him that was creating these difficulties for them in the mission, that he'd be able to overcome that and that if she would just hang on, that we would be able to have this, you know, together family and that she didn't have to leave. And so I, you know, I really wanted them to work it out and get to a better place together, and was disappointed when that didn't happen and angry.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Let me, let me ask all three of you a question before we jump back and get Jeff and Melissa's response to that question about when they first heard Glenn do you remember generally your parents being pretty happy while you were growing up? Do you think back of the family and fond memories of general happiness, or did you have signs early on or feelings of tension or concern in, let's say, junior high school?

Glenn [00:50:45] No, I thought things were great. You know, I had the. I believed that other families might break up and get divorced, but my parents never would. And I. I felt like my dad was very attracted to my mom. You know, there were a lot of physical demonstrations.

Glenn [00:51:07] You know, hugging her. You know, he'd pull her aside and say, you know, kids, this is, you know, the beautiful woman. And, you know, I mean, things like that, that I didn't see what was underneath those things and what was going on. I don't doubt now that. That it was there, but just that I didn't see it. And so I could see from them that mom was kind of more of an extrovert and dad was kind of more of an introvert. So I could see generally those things and recognize that they might not be completely compatible in some areas, but I didn't see that there were any cracks in the foundation or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Jeff, was your memory any different than Glenn's? No.

Jeff [00:51:53] And, you know, I don't mean to cut Missy off. One thing I was going to talk about is, with the explanation of. What I remember was I was in Wisconsin for the summer, and my parents both came and picked me up from the airport. When I had gotten back, this is in 96, and took me out to. Was it the Biltmore, something like that, in Phoenix, to go see Independence Day.

Glenn [00:52:22] Before we.

Jeff [00:52:23] Before we did that, we went and ate at California Pizza Kitchen. And that's when they kind of dropped the bomb on me. Now I was completely shocked because as I was out in Wisconsin for the summer, really my first stretch of time away from home, you know, I remember talking with all types of people that I was rooming with and, you know, telling, you know, everybody how my family life was good. And it just seemed like my parents were falling more in love every day. I mean, that's one of the catchphrases that I recall from growing up that mom and dad would always talk about was that, you know, every day that goes on, you know, I'm falling more in love with your mother to hear things like that.

Jeff [00:53:11] And so, you know, spending time away from a Mormon culture, because I don't even think I saw a church in the area of Wisconsin that I was at. And, you know, there were lots of people who had come from divorce And I just remember thinking, you know, how good that felt to be in that kind of a situation. And then, boom, I get back and get hit with the fact that they were going through a divorce. And I was like, wow, I was definitely a shocker.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Right?

Glenn [00:53:44] Did they tell you divorce Jeff at that time, or did they just say they were struggling?

Mama [00:53:47] Yes.

Jeff [00:53:49] No, no, it was pretty much. It hit the wall.

Guest 2 [00:53:53] So.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] All right, Melissa, tell me if you have any different recollections than Glenn or Jeff about your parents marriage, the health of their marriage, and then tell us about the day you heard.

Guest 2 [00:54:10] No, just like my brothers, I mean, I felt the same way. Kind of like what Jeff was saying. I just. I don't know if it was the fact that they had already been married for 26 years. So I felt like if anything were ever to have happened, it probably would have happened already. Like, we were kind of in the clear once we made it that far.

Guest 2 [00:54:27] I specifically remember talking to a girl in sixth grade, and there's five years gap between all of us. So, you know, all of our age difference at the time is very different. But I remember talking to a girl and, you know, she was talking about how there's no such thing as a happy marriage. And like, yes, there is. My parents have been married for 26 years and they're happy. And, you know, of course, at the time, I just chalked it up to, like, she's not Mormon. She doesn't understand what Mormon families are. You know, my family's special.

Guest 2 [00:54:56] And also, like Glenn was saying, you know, I. I definitely recognize that my parents had different personalities that didn't. I still see that difference, but I just. I never questioned it growing up. I always saw them kissing and hugging and yeah, I was surprised.

Guest 2 [00:55:19] But like, Glenn had mentioned thinking about tension on the drive up to his graduation. For me, I was still clueless. I was the last one to find out. I think even a year after they had told you, Jeff, because I don't think I found out. And then mom moved out like two months later.

Guest 2 [00:55:36] And so for me, that was really hard because I had no time to process it. And I think back now, I don't know if I would have wanted to know. I think maybe I could have handled it a little bit better. I still was just very angry for a long time. But. But as far as the specifics go, from what I remember, dad was out of town. I don't know where he was, but I remember being in our family room and mom saying that she needed to talk to me and she needed to tell me something, and I could tell in the tone of her voice that it was something serious.

Guest 2 [00:56:09] And even though up until that time I had never really entertained the idea we were walking back to her room to have this discussion. I knew exactly, exactly what she was going to tell me. And I still, you know, can't quite describe why that thought came into my mind rather than, you know, I've always kind of just thought maybe it was the spirit trying to help me to prepare for the bombshell that was about to come. But yeah, I remember talking with her and just bawling and I just was shocked. I did not see it coming at all.

Guest [00:56:50] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family members newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E S K-Y-E pixton.com thank you.

Guest 2 [00:57:43] The sun gone down.

Navigating the Separation and Its Aftermath

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 155

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Glenn [00:00:19] So, dad,

Papa [00:00:23] is it?

Glenn [00:00:25] Let's see. I guess knowing how important the church is to you and to Mom, I imagine it was devastating for you to have to break this news to your children. Is that right?

Papa [00:00:38] Yes.

Glenn [00:00:40] Can you share what it was like for you to have to do that?

Papa [00:00:48] Can I share what it was like for me to have to tell them that their mother and I were getting a divorce? Oh, I can try. That's an easy question to answer. It was horrible. It was very, very unpleasant and very, very unsettling. What was even more unpleasant and more unsettling was to try and give them some kind of an explanation as to why.

Glenn [00:01:18] And you didn't feel like you had one, right?

Papa [00:01:20] No, I had one. I had an explanation. I knew what I had been told. Now, whether or not that was the real reason or was just what I was told to let me down easy, I don't know, but I know what I was told.

Glenn [00:01:37] So in this situation, it was mom who felt like there needed to be a change. Is that right, Mom?

Mama [00:01:45] That's right.

Glenn [00:01:45] Okay. And what was it like for you? You must have been feeling a pretty heavy burden then, feeling maybe a lot of the responsibility. Even though that may or may not, you know, be accurate or fair, you. You probably felt a lot of the responsibility, Is that right?

Mama [00:02:00] Oh, I did. It was a. It was a huge, huge decision that did not come lightly or easily. And, yeah, it was really hard. It was pretty much heartbreaking for me, with the kids especially. So, yeah, that was hard.

Glenn [00:02:17] And did you feel like. We talked about this a couple days ago, but did you feel like this was something you were guided or led or even inspired to do from your perspective?

Mama [00:02:31] I guess I'm going to say it felt confirmed. I think that's the best way to say it.

Glenn [00:02:36] Much like your decision to get married in the first place. Is that right?

Mama [00:02:40] Yeah, something like that.

Melissa [00:02:42] I remember that when you told me it was with the authority of the celestial room of the Mesa Temple, and that that was where you had felt very strongly that this was what you needed to do and that it's what the Lord wanted you to do, or at least the Lord had the support for you, and that created some huge dissonance issues for me. But in later discussions, you don't remember that having happened?

Mama [00:03:15] I don't remember it. I've never remembered it the way you have told me that I said it to you. I've never remembered it that way. I know that I felt peace and confirmation, but it wasn't like I felt a bolt of lightning or something like that.

Jeff [00:03:32] Well, you told me as well. I remember.

Glenn [00:03:38] So I imagine that some of you have thought about the difficulty of. We're all members of the church. We're all seeking to, you know, to tap into divine guidance. Yet in this case, it's pretty clear that dad received. Well, dad didn't receive the same inspiration as mom did. And both of you received inspiration that the marriage was to be. Have any of you spent time trying to work through that? I'll start with mom on that one.

Mama [00:04:11] The fact that we didn't have the same inspiration about it or.

Glenn [00:04:14] Yeah, the fact you're both believing members. And this isn't a loaded question because the Spirit is complex. And this highlights a very difficult part of the LDS faith for me, and that's that how do you tell between emotion and the Spirit? What do you do when one person receives one answer and somebody else receives another? But if you think about it, both of you felt inspired to get married by the Spirit, and you, mom, felt like you were being led to end the relationship while dad wasn't getting those same feelings. How do you work through God and the Spirit's hand in reconciling that? Have you thought about that?

Mama [00:04:59] I don't think I've thought about that exactly because. I guess I just accepted what I received and I recognized it was not something that he was open to or willing to see. And I'm trying to keep this simple for tonight. So that's just. I guess I kind of put it that way that, you know, like, I believe that inspiration happens as you make. As you ask the questions and you're open to receive whatever the answers are. And if you don't want to know those answers, you're not going to get them right. But I also accept that people have different perceptions, and I want to say that, too.

Glenn [00:05:48] So. And dad, how have you processed that apparent conundrum or paradox?

Papa [00:05:57] Well, there are actually two answers to that question. The first answer is that based on what I was told, I'm not so sure that mom ever had the confirmation or answer that she thought she had. At the beginning of the marriage,

Melissa [00:06:16] what

Papa [00:06:16] I was told was that she'd never loved me. She married me because her parents told her that it would be the right thing for her to do, but that she'd never loved me. And it had taken her this long to make the decision that she wasn't going to stay in a loveless marriage.

Papa [00:06:35] And there's no need to go beyond that simple statement. So the first premise of both of us receiving confirmations, looking backwards, I question, however, the Spirit tells people and confirms things to people at different times in their lives based on information and based on things that are necessary at the time.

Papa [00:07:03] But people change, they develop in different ways. And what is right for somebody to do at one point in their life is not necessarily the same, not right for them to do at all periods of their life. Scriptures are full of examples of that. A single one might be.

Papa [00:07:24] Nephi was commanded to kill Laban to obtain the place. That doesn't mean that he was a murderer for the rest of his life. But he was supposed to do something at a particular time that he was not supposed to do at any other time.

Papa [00:07:42] I feel that it would be not inconsistent with my understanding of the operation of the Spirit for a couple such as mom and I at the ages we were when we got married, to believe that we were in love and to believe that it was the right thing for us to do to get married. And it was the right thing for us to do to get married at that time. But through the process of dying, because of directions I went or directions she went, that unity no longer existed. I think that's one of the reasons why the DNC talks about the ceiling being a potential ceiling and that we're really not a forever family.

Papa [00:08:25] We're really not sealed until the sealing from the Holy Spirit of Promise occurs. That doesn't happen simultaneous with the marriage ceremony. It happens over the period of the couple's lives and their actions and conduct. So that's how I processed it. It was the right thing to do at the time. We have four beautiful children as a result of that union.

Papa [00:08:50] Great memories and experiences and some not so great and good. But it wasn't a total disaster and it wasn't a total wrong thing. It just didn't work out.

Glenn [00:09:05] Dad, were you pretty devastated at the time? And did you kind of. Did you feel like a failure?

Papa [00:09:10] Well, yeah. How could you not feel a failure when the woman that I felt very privileged to be married to

Melissa [00:09:23] tells you

Papa [00:09:23] that she doesn't love you and has never loved you, and despite the fact that she's had four children with you, she's never loved you. It's kind of devastating. It causes you to question who and what you are and whether or not you. Whether you amount to what you thought you amounted to. It's very devastating.

Glenn [00:09:46] And Mom I. I've said a thing or two to my wife in my day out of frustration or sadness. Do you look back today with that being a fair characterization of you having never loved dad, or do you feel like maybe you didn't say those words, you said it in a different way, or that's just you were feeling sad or trying to break out at the time. Do you look on that history a little bit differently?

Mama [00:10:16] You know, I think it's very complicated. And to say that. I wouldn't say that now, probably like that. I would say that I wanted to. And there were things that felt compelling whether. And I feel like that. Like I said, I started out feeling pretty much intimidated, and I think there could have been more love.

Jeff [00:10:42] Grow. Can I interject?

Mama [00:10:48] I'd be happy for you, too. This is way heavier than I want it to be.

Jeff [00:10:53] Well, no. I mean, you and I had a conversation last summer about your whole leading up to marrying dad and now me being married and in a different situation than I was when the divorce happened. I could see things from a different perspective, maybe, you know, with a little more understanding and compassion. But I think maybe you're trying to be a little too politically correct, because even at that time, you were saying that you still kind of felt that you never really loved dad the way that you maybe should love a husband. Or, you know, maybe you had expectations that, like, I specifically remember you saying things like, you know, that you were taught that any worthy man and any worthy young woman would be able to make it work. You know, that you had kind of had those feelings and. I don't know.

Glenn [00:11:45] Well, let me take the focus off the direct relationship and sort of ask a more abstract question. I think we would all agree that one of the things the church can do really well is families. I mean, I don't think that anybody who'd say that the Mormon Church gets families wrong for the most part. So starting with that premise, and that's how I feel, I guess. Mom, would it be fair to say that the combination of getting married too early, the pressure to get married, the other dynamics of, you know, of callings and sort of the lifestyle that's expected can. Can sometimes suck someone young in and propel them into a direction that maybe isn't right for them, and that might not even be a Mormon thing at all. That might just be a societal thing. It sounds like that might be how you would reflect upon what happened, is that.

Mama [00:12:53] Yeah, and I think I was very much a pleaser at that time, wanting to please my parents, wanting to please Papa. You know, I really did want to.

Papa [00:13:04] You wanted to please God?

Melissa [00:13:05] I mean, you thought this was something you're supposed to be doing?

Mama [00:13:09] Absolutely. Yeah. And Melissa's right in that that's what I had been taught. So even though I may not have had the feelings that I now have experienced and know how different that is, and I didn't know. And so anyway, I went forward and I know that I was scared. The six months we were engaged, I would call and say, I don't think this is going to work, and I'd cry. And then I got reassured it was going to be fine, and so I just went along.

Glenn [00:13:40] Yeah. And I guess, mom, from your perspective, it's not like you didn't try to make it work.

Mama [00:13:47] Oh, absolutely.

Glenn [00:13:48] Yeah. But did you just kind of reach a breaking point at some point then? I mean.

Mama [00:13:52] Yeah, pretty much.

Glenn [00:13:54] Yeah. Well, I mean, I can see that. I can totally see that. And that's just incredibly hard on both sides. So let me turn it a little bit now to the kids. Well, I come from a divorced family myself, and, you know, it happened right when I was still in primary. And I can remember very distinctly the contrast between the emphasis on eternal families and me trying to come to grips with my eternal family dissolving. So let's start with Melissa this time. What was it like as a kid to process your framing of the gospel, the LDS Church, with the dissolution of your parents, marriage, and of your eternal family?

How Each Family Member Coped and Healed

Jeff [00:14:49] Yeah, like I said before, for me it was very much a surprise. I didn't see it coming. I had a really hard time. I was young. I was in young women's. I think I was 14 or 15. And it was right around the time I was preparing to get my patriarchal blessing. And I remember going in really kind of nervous about it. But when the patriarch started off with the prayer, and, you know, of course you get the copy later, it talked about being sent to a home of, you know, righteous parents and goodly parents and be thankful for their example and all that they've done for you and, you know, those kinds of things.

Jeff [00:15:30] And it said a line specifically that you will serve them in due time. And, yeah, just. Just, you know, my parents are great and I'm blessed because of their example and their sacrifice on my behalf. And I need to be thankful. And I can look back at that now and see it differently. But at the time when I read it, it gave me comfort in that I thought they were not going to get divorced. I felt that this was kind of like A sign or a way of comforting for me. Something that I'd been struggling with in a way of saying that, no, they're goodly parents.

Jeff [00:16:04] You were sent to them because of this union, because they have this special gift of the gospel, and you guys are chosen to be a family, to be together. And it made me think that, oh, great, then they're not really going to get divorced. And when it did go ahead and happen, I was crushed. I didn't know what to think. That happened to other people's families. It didn't happen to my family.

Jeff [00:16:28] And being in the ward was really difficult for me. It had kind of already been a little bit of a rough road anyways, just with other issues that we had had and that I personally had had. Just being in that ward, it didn't feel very safe to me anymore. And I remember the one good thing that did come from it was my mom moved into a new ward and I was able to find really good friends there. And not to say that everybody in the home ward was really bad either. I look back now and again can see things differently. But at that time, I just needed support.

Jeff [00:17:09] I just needed people to be my friend and not be judgmental or, you know, pity me. And unfortunately, I didn't feel that there were anyone who could really understand what I was going through and help me with that in that ward.

Jeff [00:17:25] I do remember, you know, I would go to girls camp with that ward, and I remember singing, the Families can be Together Forever. And we would do little skits about your families being together and being reunited in heaven. And it just was so hard for me. I would just bawl.

Jeff [00:17:41] And the only thing that really got me through those times, I did feel that I developed my own testimony at that time. And really, it just kind of made me take the focus off of my parents and that family and focus on what I wanted my future family to be like. And for me, I just kind of had to let go.

Jeff [00:18:02] And of course, that took a long time, but just realized that there was nothing I could do about it. And I could be bitter about it forever, or I could move on and try not to make the same mistakes that I saw in my parents.

Glenn [00:18:15] Right. Jeff, what was it like for you?

Guest [00:18:22] You know, I had already made a bed at that point in time to where I was away from the church anyways, so I really didn't have. I really don't have an experience one way or the other, as I had stated. You know, I was gone for the summer, came back, found out that that was what was going on shortly, you know, within the next year and a half or so after I'd gotten back, I had found the gal who was my future wife, the mother of my 11 year old son at this point. And we've been divorced now for a year. But we had ended up moving out together and you know, I was out, you know, looking for something else. Not really having a strong faith in the church, but having a strong faith in Lord God Jesus Christ.

Glenn [00:19:26] And did you ever have a hard time reconciling the divorce with your spiritual worldview?

Papa [00:19:35] No, not at all.

Guest [00:19:36] I mean, I think I've got, I see things a lot differently than a lot of members of the LDS faith.

Glenn [00:19:52] How so?

Guest [00:19:56] Well, you know, and that's, that's hard to answer that because, you know, everything that I've got, you know, moving forward. Yes. From when I was a child, you know, what I remember. And I can also see how skewed that view was as I was growing up in the first place. So let's see here. How so?

Guest [00:20:17] I. Well, one big thing is, you know, I don't understand, you know, what the sealing aspect means. My understanding of that was that, you know, the family was supposed to be together forever and you know, things that we've been talking about even here right now. I guess that doesn't mean that that's the case. If you know, how did you put it earlier, dad, that you know, there has to be some sort of a confirmation after the ceilings taken place, even though, you know, 27 years down the road we never got that. And so now the family's not sealed yet. I mean, I don't know. I just personally see a lot of inconsistencies that I just don't accept the explanations for that the Mormon that the Mormon Church gives.

Glenn [00:21:11] But you still had to look at God and say, why is this happening? Have you disconnected at that point from being invested in your family status?

Guest [00:21:22] I don't understand the question. Did I feel a disconnect from being a member of the family?

Jeff [00:21:29] Now, did you blame God or wonder God or did you just accept that it was, you know, mom's choice or dad's choice or, you know, did it seem like a God thing to you or just a human thing?

Mama [00:21:39] I guess?

Guest [00:21:39] No, no. In fact, when I would hear mom saying how she prayed and she had felt that she got the confirmation through the spirit, that this is the right thing to do, I mean, honestly, I just felt that that was her, you know, finding a way to justify actions.

Guest [00:22:02] I mean, honestly. And you know, I don't think that there. I don't feel that the Lord had given any confirmation one way or the other that that was the case. But again, you know, that was my view on it. I also didn't, you know, hold. I mean, I wasn't happy about it, but I realized that there was nothing I could do about it.

Guest [00:22:25] And so, you know, had a choice at that point, either, you know, go with it and love them or, you know, fight them and distance myself. And I was already doing enough bad on my own that, you know, I don't want to be fighting about something that I had no control over one way or the other. And I love my mother and I love my father, and, you know, I was going to do what I could to make the best of it.

Jeff [00:22:52] And

Guest [00:22:55] even when the next guy came in her life, I tried to, you know, be friendly and make that work the best I could, even though it was tough.

Glenn [00:23:05] Sure, sure. Okay. Well, Glenn, how about you? How did this. How did this affect your spiritual, religious worldview?

Melissa [00:23:18] It was, you know, probably pretty significant. I mean, there were several things that were going on in my spiritual religious worldview at the time. I was in graduate school when the bulk of this was happening, and I was studying folklore. And so I was looking at the way that tradition influences people's lives and creates meaning. And so, you know, it kind of shows you the value of a folklore degree. When my brother so articulately expressed his reaction to my mom, you know, saying that this was received by revelation and going, oh, she's just using that as a way to justify, you know, that was the message that I was being taught in folklore as well, is that, you know, these stories that we have and create validation for our beliefs.

Melissa [00:24:11] And so I was studying this in an academic setting. I was looking at other cultures outside of Mormonism, and I was starting to look at Mormonism as, you know, being just one of other religious cultures. And so with this happening, it just made it more personal to me. And, you know, just looking at the way that religion. I mean, even listening to my dad a few minutes ago, going into the scriptures as a way to explain what had happened, just seeing how we use these religious stories to justify and make sense of the world. So I started going from a more literal interpretation of religion to a more figurative interpretation of religion. And so it was definitely key in that.

Papa [00:25:06] Sure.

Melissa [00:25:06] And for me, one of my most painful times with all of this was during Missy's endowment, when we were all in the temple together, except for Jeff, and just the realization that my mom's on one side, my dad's on the other side. Neither the twain shall meet, even though they're both there. And it was like, almost complete, almost together in the temple where it's supposed to be, and you're supposed to go into the celestial room and have this marvelous communion experience as a family. And I just felt the lack of that. And it was really painful for me emotionally, and I didn't quite know how to express it in that sense.

Glenn [00:26:04] So for you, it was sort of a blow to your. The early stages of your faith, the early form of your faith.

Melissa [00:26:15] It was a burden that. I wouldn't call it a blow, but I'd say it was a burden that I had to shoulder and I had to carry. And, you know, to hear, like Jeff said, there were a lot of inconsistencies. And I started seeing the inconsistencies as well. And I love my dad and I love my mom and hearing their sides of it, you know, that they both felt that they had God on their side. And it would have been a lot easier if one of them would have left the church. It would have been so much easier. But they both stayed true to it. And, you know, being raised with this binary worldview of there's either right or there's wrong, it was confusing.

Glenn [00:26:59] What does this mean?

Melissa [00:27:00] So, yeah, it was a burden, but I wouldn't say it was devastating by any means. I'm grateful that I had to struggle through those questions. And, you know, I'm happy with where I am as a result of it, but it wasn't fun. It wasn't anything I would have wished. Wished for at the time.

Glenn [00:27:26] Sure. Let's start with mom, and then we'll go to dad. Let's talk a bit about how a ward and a stake can react to a divorced person in a good way and in a not so good way. Do you have stories or examples or anecdotes of some angels who were really there for you within the church as models for how we might treat others who are in a similar situation, and maybe some not so angels, some types of behaviors or ways that are. We should try and avoid acting when this strikes in our own units and wards and families?

Church and Community Responses to the Divorce

Mama [00:28:15] Well, in the process of the decision making, while I was still in the home ward, there was a lot at stake, I think, for the leaders to keep me in line. There was a lot of that going on, and it was very difficult. I made the choice to be respectful of the leaders, even if I didn't agree. I was Going to try to be as respectful as I could.

Mama [00:28:46] And so I did that. And I wasn't going to let that turn me away from the church, even though it was really, really hard. When I moved into a new ward subsequently and then later on I felt very accepted and very much a part of things. And honestly I feel like a lot of that was that I chose to not see myself as a second class citizen because I was single.

Mama [00:29:14] And so I participated fully and I didn't expect that somebody was going to treat me any different than they would anybody else. And I also think it's easier for women than men because I think women will rally around women, women that are single, but I think men in the church that are single, I think it's much more difficult. At least that's my observation.

Papa [00:29:35] Sure.

Melissa [00:29:36] Mom.

Glenn [00:29:37] Did you get your doctorate after the divorce?

Mama [00:29:41] Yes.

Glenn [00:29:42] So you went back to school?

Mama [00:29:44] Well, I was in process. I was in process of. It was actually going to school was one of the ways I was trying to cope with being still be married.

Glenn [00:29:53] Sure.

Mama [00:29:53] I was hoping that that would help me stay.

Jeff [00:29:57] Well, an interesting side note, possibly. I always remember her going to school. I mean all of my growing up years, I remember her being gone and at school and at the time when I couldn't spiritually justify what was happening to my family, I blamed a lot of it on her schooling. And I just kind of thought she had some crazy ideas or met some people that, you know, were Satan's people, you know, tried to take her away and put ideas in her head.

Mama [00:30:30] Yes, yes, of course.

Guest [00:30:34] I will confirm that thought and suspicion as well. Although I didn't think that it was as much of people putting stuff in her mind as the fact that what, what she was filling her head with was psychobabble. Just again, justify actions and you know.

Jeff [00:30:54] Well, I've shared this with you before, mom. I don't know if you remember the day, but I remember going to your office with you at asu and I can't remember specifics of if you guys were already officially divorced or if it was separated, but I remember going to your office and you had to leave for something. I just kind of like sat at your desk and kind of crawled up and I just started crying. I just felt so kind of creepy there and just sad and depressed. There just was not a good energy there. And maybe that was my own mind, you know, creating that so that I could have a place of blame or something. But it felt very real to me at the time.

Mama [00:31:35] Graduate programs can be very lonely, you Were probably picking up on that.

Jeff [00:31:40] Yeah.

Glenn [00:31:43] And mom, you were just trying to find fulfillment and satisfaction and maybe, you know, cope. Is that kind of what.

Mama [00:31:53] Yeah, I was, I was. I mean, I recognize that it isn't possible to demand that one person meet your needs. I mean, that's just not possible that, to expect that of a husband. And so I was trying to find ways that were appropriate to meet my needs and see if I could do it right.

Glenn [00:32:14] Okay, dad, tell us your perspective on how ward members or family members can help or not help.

Papa [00:32:27] Well, we'll start with home teacher, I guess. We had home teacher, lived down the street, been our home teacher for several years. I worked with him in a state calling mom, worked with his wife in Relief Society. And when the separation occurred and then all the way through the divorce, these people kept very close contact with me and were very supporting and loving and non judged. Battle the ward as a whole, as far as I was concerned, was supported.

Papa [00:33:04] I felt very ostracized is not the word. But left out. Not because people were intentionally leaving me out, but that because the flow of the church, the mainstream of the church is so focused on families that if you're not a family, you're kind of left out.

Papa [00:33:27] Sure. I had two or three experiences, interesting experience. I had a single cousin who took me to a single adult dance. And I walked into that place and it's the walking wounded story. I walked into that dance and I said, these people, I mean, these are the walking wounded. That was my first reaction. These people are the walking wounded. My second reaction was, and I'm one of them.

Papa [00:33:53] I wasn't ready to be in that place. And I never went back to another singles dance. I went to church one Sunday and a couple came up to me and they said, oh, we're so glad to see you in church today.

Papa [00:34:07] And I said, why? I mean, quite a day. Where else would you expect me to be? This is Sunday and this is sacrament meeting. This is where I'm supposed to be. Well, but you're getting divorced and things are blah, blah, blah. We just kind of figured maybe you'd not want to stay with the church. I thought that's kind of silly. Where else would I go?

Papa [00:34:33] I had differing experiences as a single person and I don't think the church deals real well with single people. I happen to presently be in a bishopric in a university ward, and the church is reaching out and trying to integrate on various levels, single people and attend to their needs on a single person basis as opposed to trying to attend to single people in a traditional family war.

Papa [00:35:03] Melissa and I were living in the family home, the two of us, for a year or so. Jeff and. And his wife moved in with us.

Jeff [00:35:15] Well, she wasn't his wife yet.

Papa [00:35:18] No, for a better part of a year, Jeff, something like that. While she was pregnant with your son. The son was actually born while they were living in the home, and I guess she stayed with us for another three or four months before you moved. So we, you know, we. We had a kind of a family, but it wasn't a complete family. And, you know, was. In some respects, I guess we could quote Dickens, you know, it was the best of times, it was the worst

Jeff [00:35:56] of times, except minus the best part.

Papa [00:36:01] Well, it was. I think it was kind of the best of times times in many respects, Missy, because you and I got very close, and it was kind of the best of times as well, because we got close with Jeff and Tammy, at least as close to Tammy as Tammy let us get. And then there was Curtis who came along, and, you know, he was great. So, yeah, there were good things that were going on, but. But they weren't traditional things and they weren't the best of things. So from a standpoint of. Did people in the ward help me? Yeah, many of them tried to help a lot. Did people try to hurt or interfere? No, I don't remember that.

Glenn [00:36:51] I'll just say that that was absolutely my experience. The war, the one thing he said about. Well, two things. I had fantastic home teachers, but I got closer to my parents than I think I ever would have gotten if they had stayed together. And that, for me, was this bizarre, wonderful side benefit of divorce. Did Glenn and Jeff. Did you experience something similar?

Guest [00:37:15] Yeah, I mean, for me, moving in with dad, being able to live there, you know, while, you know, I guess, kind of under a black cloud, I brought in my not wife pregnant with my son, my girlfriend living in my house. Not really a traditional Mormon setting.

Jeff [00:37:42] Maybe for the record, we should state that Tammy was downstairs and you were upstairs. Even though the damage had been done, dad wouldn't allow it in his home.

Papa [00:37:53] We tried to have a semblance of what I thought was propriety under the circumstances.

Guest [00:37:59] Really? I don't remember that.

Jeff [00:38:03] I don't remember sitting first then.

Papa [00:38:05] But I don't remember you staying downstairs or upstairs. But I do remember trying to set that up.

Guest [00:38:17] But. But yeah, I mean, at first it wasn't. I wasn't getting as close with Mom. I mean, she had moved out. You know, we were living at the house she was in her, as we had called it, Barbie Dream House. Is that what it was? Is that what it was, guys?

Jeff [00:38:34] Yes.

Guest [00:38:36] And. And doing her thing. And, you know, we were. I was not. I guess I don't think I was all that close to the family as a whole growing up in the first place, as Missy had stated earlier. You know, my recollection of, you know, my youth, I remember going on some excellent vacations and spending a lot of time.

Guest [00:39:07] I remember car rides. I remember going up to Canada and driving up there and back and lots of good stuff. But, you know, with the daily grind, I remember that, you know, mom was at school pretty much all the time. I remember, you know, being able to take off during assemblies and go home with my friends and ditch school and things like that. And I'd be able to do that because nobody was there.

Guest [00:39:35] I remember that, you know, when dad would come home, he would engulf himself in the. In scripture and, you know, and read and then watch a little Star Trek and do his ironing. And there wasn't a whole lot of clean the pool. Yeah, well, that was Saturdays. But, I mean, there wasn't a whole lot of family interaction other than on a Monday night for family home evening. And even then, we wouldn't even be able to watch Ferris Bueller's.

Melissa [00:40:09] Well, we watched part of

Guest [00:40:12] Got turned

Melissa [00:40:13] On, like, the first five minutes.

Glenn [00:40:15] Yeah.

Papa [00:40:19] Sorry you had such a deprived child.

Guest [00:40:22] I'm not saying that. I'm just saying we've left out some

Jeff [00:40:25] of the good parts.

Guest [00:40:27] Well, I wanted to say that there's lots of good parts, but. But there was also a lot of, you know, I felt disconnect, and I didn't feel that I really got closer with my mother and my father until later on in life. And, you know, I don't know how all that would have played out as they would if they would have stayed together, but I feel that I have a really good relationship with the both of them, even though I'm out here in California, Mom's there in Utah, Dad's in Phoenix. So, I mean, it's. It's tough, but I think we do a good job making it work, even with the distance and I don't know.

Glenn [00:41:12] So, Glenn, did you have anything to add on that question before we go to the next one?

Melissa [00:41:16] I got less close from my mom, as, you know, from. From the divorce. I had been close with her, and there was, again, a lot of anger, a lot of judgment on my part. And so we kind of fell out for a while. I got closer to my dad during the time that he was divorced, when he got remarried, it felt like a lot of that relationship that we built was just kind of gone. And I don't know exactly why that happened, but I think when he was divorced, he needed me more, and when he got remarried, he didn't need that. And so that's been kind of hard as well. And over the last few years, I've gotten closer to my mom again, but things have been kind of strained with dad, I think, over the last couple years until maybe the last few months.

Glenn [00:42:21] So a bit of a roller coaster ride for you.

Melissa [00:42:22] Yeah, yeah. You know, not really having the kind of balance that I'd like to have.

Glenn [00:42:31] Gotcha. Well, one of the days I'll never forget is when I was a student at BYU and I got the letter from my mom, I believe, telling me that the ceiling was cancelled. Let's talk about that notion. And I'm just going to assume right off the bat, Jeff, that that was not an issue for you at all. Right.

Temple Sealings, Cancellations, and Remarriage

Guest [00:43:00] I mean, it's. The symbolism is big because I understand what. Well, I think I have some understanding of what that means, but I think what, what. What it meant more to me was kind of confirmation that, you know, me leaving the church was not the wrong move for me.

Glenn [00:43:28] Right.

Papa [00:43:29] Okay, so

Glenn [00:43:32] let's step back. Mom or dad, who was the person who initiated that process of getting the sealing canceled?

Mama [00:43:45] I was. When I was sealed again. So I needed to do that. He was sealed prior to that. And that wasn't a requirement at that time to go through anything like that? Well, I can't remember. I don't think there was. And so.

Papa [00:44:00] Because it wasn't.

Mama [00:44:02] Yeah. So the different for men and women. So when I was going to be sealed again, then I needed to have that sealing undone.

Glenn [00:44:10] What was that? Can you just talk us through that process of annulling or canceling a sealing?

Mama [00:44:18] Actually, it was quite a. I had, so I'm told, a really amazing process with it because it didn't take very long, for one thing. And it just is. They asked me to write a letter of my experience and then we had to have letters. And I had been married for a brief time in between and had to have a letter from him even though there had been no sealing there. And then my bishop and stake president and that sort of thing, and they wrote in. And then within two weeks I had a response and it was cancelled.

Guest [00:44:52] Very clearly.

Glenn [00:44:53] Tackle this very quick and painless.

Mama [00:44:56] Yeah, pretty much.

Glenn [00:44:57] And Papa for you, before we come to Melissa Anything you'd add to that?

Papa [00:45:04] No.

Glenn [00:45:04] Okay.

Melissa [00:45:06] Dad, was there even any little bit of spite in you, that thought, even just for a second? I'm not going to sign it. I'm not going to. No. Okay.

Papa [00:45:18] No, no. My thought was that, all right, this didn't work out with your mother. Well, I didn't feel that there was any purpose in my trying to be vindictive towards her. And hopefully you kids have never heard me say anything malicious or bad about her. That never was a goal of mine or a font of mine. If she could be remarried and sealed to someone that made her happy, great. Because I was remarried and sealed to somebody that made me happy, I didn't wish her any unhappiness. So, no, there was never a thought in my mind about not signing or offering a letter that would assist in her achieving a cancellation so that she could be sealed to death to her current husband and dad.

Glenn [00:46:18] You didn't have to go through a special application process to get remarried, is that right?

Papa [00:46:24] No, I did. The process for a man to be remarried in the temple is similar to the process for the cancellation of the sealing, except it stops short of the cancellation of the ceiling. You still have to have a letter from your bishop, your stake president. You have to write a letter, and the spouse is invited to write a letter as well.

Papa [00:46:51] So the process, as I understand it, is pretty much the same. The result is different for a man. The result is that you get a letter from the first presidency that authorizes you to be sealed to the second spouse in the temple without the cancellation of the first sealing. Oh, for a woman.

Papa [00:47:14] Or to put it differently, man can be sealed to more than one woman at one time, can't be civilly married to more than one woman at a time, but she can be sealed with the earlier marriage having been terminated through lawful divorce. But for a woman, she can't be sealed to more than one man at a time and so forth. Mom. To be sealed to her current husband, the sealing between she and I had to be cancelled. And so that's the difference. The result in this process, I achieved or received permission to be sealed to a second woman. She received a cancellation of the first sealing.

Melissa [00:47:59] Dad, if I understand your understanding of. Of this, it's not really the sealing that was cancelled, but it's the promise of sealing. Right? That marriage ceremony is the promise of sealing, but the actual sealing happens later. So I would imagine that at the time that you were sealed to two women, you didn't really see it as being sealed to two women, you didn't have any thoughts of a shared afterlife together. It was just more of a technicality, like the promise of sealing. But that first promise had already been broken, so it didn't really mean anything there.

Papa [00:48:37] You're absolutely correct. The temple marriage ceremony isn't effective as a sealing right that instant. It takes a long time. And unless you get dirty the end and do other things, you know, you're not going to get that Sealing isn't going to get completed. And I never did feel after the first 20 or so years and as a result of the divorce that your mother and I were actually sealed in that ultimate sense. We had gone through the process. We had the potential, but it hadn't been realized. And so the cancellation of the sealing was the cancellation of the possibility.

Glenn [00:49:22] Right. And dad, this is sort of a tangent, but since we're on the topic and I'm just curious, knowing that you're kind of a devout believer,

John Dehlin [00:49:33] do you

Glenn [00:49:34] believe that in heaven there is plural marriage?

Papa [00:49:39] When I get there and find out, I'll try and let you know.

Glenn [00:49:42] Okay, so for you, it's just a big question mark.

Papa [00:49:45] Yeah, I don't have any. I don't know. I can see examples in the scriptures where it's entirely possible. It certainly apparently has been the process at points in time in history. It's also been not the process and not accepted at other points in time in history.

Glenn [00:50:02] So for you, I don't know. It's kind of.

Papa [00:50:05] I can give you the answer. My kids will laugh. But there is a scripture that I can direct you to that gives you the answer to that.

Melissa [00:50:12] By laugh you mean groan, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Yeah.

Papa [00:50:14] Growing Alma, chapter 37, verse 11,

Glenn [00:50:20] which

Papa [00:50:20] says, these mysteries are not yet made fully known unto me, therefore I shall forbear. Okay, I don't know.

Glenn [00:50:27] But for you it's possible that it's not a law in heaven, then it's

Papa [00:50:33] possible that it's not. It's possible that it is. I just don't know.

Glenn [00:50:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on the this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixon.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E S K Y E pixton.com thank you.

Being Sealed Again and What It Meant

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 156

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Okay, so I believe that Melissa was going to jump in and share some of her feelings about the cancellation of the Ceiling.

Melissa [00:00:30] Yes, just like you, John. I remember vividly where I was. I mean, and granted this wasn't that long ago. Mom and her current husband have only been married three and a half years, so, I mean, this probably happened about four years ago. Anyways.

Melissa [00:00:47] Yeah, like Jeff and Dad had said, you know, during the divorce when it was all still pretty fresh, I also was pretty angry and bitter with mom, and our relationship was strained for a long time. You know, decent. It was still decent. It was friendly. But I definitely felt like a trust had been broken and it took a long time to repair that. And as a result, dad and I did get closer, but also kind of like what Glenn mentioned. I haven't felt quite as close with dad since he's been remarried.

Melissa [00:01:21] And independent of that, I have become closer with Mom. I think just time heals and perspective heals. Anyway, so mom and I do have a good close relationship and unfortunately, on a few occasions, I think it's been a little too close. I remember I was driving home and I can picture the spot in the neighborhood and these beautiful trees. I live in the Midwest, not in Arizona anymore. It's beautiful.

Melissa [00:01:48] But anyway, so I remember specifically where I was and I got this phone call and just this excited voice on the other end and, oh, you'll never guess what came in the mail today. I just got the letter of the temple scaling cancellation and I'm so excited because usually it takes such a long time and isn't that great, Mom?

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Is she exaggerating?

Mama [00:02:09] Probably not. I was probably clueless.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Oh, okay. Keep going, Melissa.

Mama [00:02:14] I'll bear that one.

Melissa [00:02:16] Well, and we've talked about this since, so, you know, it's not calling her out, you know, something that she doesn't already know my experience on. But I just, you know, I almost had to pull over. I was so sad. And I just said, you know, mom, I don't need to take away any bit of your happiness, but maybe you should kind of consider who you're talking to and what this means for me and, you know, maybe word things a little bit differently or kind of, you know, be a little more sensitive what, you know, what's going on. And.

Melissa [00:02:49] And yeah, that was just really hard for me. I kind of had, like, it kind of hadn't realized how real it all was even though they both were remarried, and I'm very happy with who they're married to now. I myself, you know, was sealed in the temple and had a good family life, but it just kind of hit me like, wow, that family is gone.

Melissa [00:03:11] And, yeah, I don't know if this is the time we want to talk about, you know, actually when she was sealed again. I guess it probably fits, but I wasn't in doubt when dad and his current wife were sealed, so obviously I wasn't there. But I was there when mom was sealed again, and that was really hard for me. I remember being in that room, the same room that my husband and I were sealed in, and just listening to. What's the name of the guy? The sealer?

Mama [00:03:43] Is it just the sealer? Well, you don't need to say that.

Melissa [00:03:45] No, no, no, no, no, no. Not his personal name, but just like the. You know, the person who does the seal, he's just the sealer. Listening to him and the things that he was saying and just being in that room and, like, the idea that I felt was, like, that this was almost destined for mom and her husband to be together, and that everything that they had done in their lives because they had been righteous and kept strong to their.

Melissa [00:04:09] Their faith and all that, the church teaches us that they were brought to this point because of their righteousness. And I just kind of had to think, like, well, wait a minute. I take issue with that. My family had to break up for this to happen. And as much as I don't begrudge them their happiness, I'm very happy. But, like, I just can't agree that this has all been destined to happen this way. And I started feeling really kind of bitter, which obviously isn't a very good thing to feel at the temple, but, you know, and I've shared this with all of my family. That was really kind of the first time where I allowed myself to think, what is this really all about?

Melissa [00:04:50] And, of course, I had questioned things of the church before, but I always kind of had a neat little box to put it back in. Some sort of an answer that, you know, whether it completely satisfied me or not, I was able to kind of get by and put those things on the shelf and.

Melissa [00:05:06] And just being there, watching mom be sealed again in that room, really opened up a can of worms for me. And since that time, the can is just maybe can focus

Glenn [00:05:21] at that time, if I remember right, you didn't feel like mom deserved that happiness? Like, you wanted to see some blood, right?

Melissa [00:05:33] Well, I think there was part of me, part of the bitterness of that was that this was all just too great. But then, as mom had mentioned, she was married a second time. And I don't know, that was kind of the blood. Like I said, I genuinely was happy for her. But, yeah, at the same time, I just was kind of really resentful that this blessed union happened at the expense of my family. And anyways, yeah, I've had a lot of struggles with the church and just with different, you know, with my faith since then.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] So for you, that was a blow to your testimony.

Melissa [00:06:11] Yeah. Because if, you know, the magic of the ceiling, the magic of the temple was kind of lost for me. And I know everybody can interpret things their own way, but for me, feeling that and being there, I just didn't get it anymore. You know, like dad was saying, I guess if there's a promise, you know, what's the, what's the point of living your life this way? Your whole, you know, everything is about families. It's about from a very young age, even, you know, last Sunday I heard a baby blessing and they were blessing this baby that they would be able to find an eternal mate to take them to the temple.

Melissa [00:06:44] And I thought, well, what's the big deal if they can just cancel it and have a do over what all this importance placed on the temple, if it really isn't, you know, for lack of a better word, magic? And I know that's, you know, a completely different conversation for another day. It's just my feelings and how I perceived it and dealt with it.

Melissa [00:07:04] But, yeah, I mean, and when you kind of take away special things that happen at the temple, your whole religious world could fall apart.

Standards, Grace, and Room for Mistakes

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Well, actually, I think this is the perfect time and place to discuss this. And Glenn, I think that what I'm going to be voicing here, I've heard you voice as well, and that's. There's this tendency we have in the church to say, here's how it should be and here's how we need to live and let's all live that way. And then life happens and someone commits suicide, or a sealed temple marriage breaks up, or a promise that was made in a patriarchal blessing doesn't come to pass.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] And the common Mormon reaction that I've experienced is, well, it'll all get worked out in heaven. And, you know, that's kind of the big catch all. And that's fine. That's actually how I look at a lot of things, too. But in the end, how do you simultaneously Remain invested in the literalness and the high standards. When you know that a ceiling can be easily dissolved and people can get remarried and in the end it'll all work out someday, right?

Melissa [00:08:25] So what's with, you know, what is it? Why do we really have the temple? If it's all going to work out someday in heaven, then why do we have to do these symbolic things? I can see how it can benefit us in a temporal state. You know, definitely can bless our lives to be worthy, to be, you know, able to attend the temple and the promises that you make. There are really good things about being a good person, but you can still be a good person and not be a temple going person like that. That's kind of where I have struggles because, yeah, I mean, if it all is going to work out in heaven anyways, then

John Dehlin [00:09:02] Glenn, why don't you jump in here?

Glenn [00:09:04] Oh boy. I don't really know where to start with that, John. I think as far as my parents divorce and its impact on my life is concerned, I did start looking at ordinances and priesthood powers and things like this, much less literally. And to answer your question,

Guest 1 [00:09:31] why go

Glenn [00:09:31] through all this if it's just symbolic? Well, I think there's lessons to be learned. If you can use this mortal probation, if that's what this earth is, it's a mortal probation and it's a time to gain experience. Being in a broken family or being in a hard marriage or going to church on Sundays and hearing messages that make you want to pull your hair out can be a place to gain some strength and perspective if that's what you want to do and if you're really getting something out of it. But not that this is the only way that you can learn those lessons. And in fact, maybe sometimes they're an inhibitor to learning these lessons.

Glenn [00:10:14] If you're using the ordinances and the symbols of the church to support self righteous pride, that's when I've got a real problem with it. Or to say I don't have any. I don't have any reasons to be humble. I don't have any reasons to accept this because everything's guaranteed for me because I did this thing.

Glenn [00:10:38] That's where I kind of have a problem with it. And so maybe the divorce forcing me to look at those things helps me get to a place where I'm a little more comfortable being in a non literal place. And I can still go to church and I can still go through the temple and I can still be worthy for these things, whatever that means to be worthy just because I feel comfortable with it and I don't have to believe it literally. And I don't even have to feel like maybe I fit in with everybody that's around me. But I can still see for my family, for my wife, for my kids, this is something that hopefully will be good for us. That sounds like I just spun around a lot. I don't know if I made any sense.

Melissa [00:11:32] You did.

Glenn [00:11:33] Which one spun around or made sense? Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Well, why don't we have dad help dad and then mom as both still strong believers in the church. You know, I didn't ask this question with disrespect. It's a natural question. I hope you guys would see it as a fair one. If things can just be worked out in the end, whether it's, you know, people who don't get baptized on this earth or temple marriages or whatever, and if the celestial temple marriages can be easily dissolved, how do we still maintain sort of the strong feeling that they're literal and super important versus flexible, and then in the end God's going to make it all okay anyway, so we don't need to be too worked up about them.

Guest 2 [00:12:32] Okay. Well, to start with, I disagree with part of your premise. I don't think temple cancellations are all that easy to obtain. They are obtainable. And the mere fact that they're obtainable, I guess, renders the Are they easier? Are they difficult? A minor question, but let me try and address your concern or answer the question for me.

Guest 2 [00:12:59] My answer may not make sense to my kids or over mom or even you, but it's my answer. I believe that we are here on this earth to gain experience and to it is test. It's a probationary period.

Guest 2 [00:13:22] I believe that not merely because the Scriptures tell me that, but because it appears to me to be that way as my life is unfolded. I learn things, I make mistakes. I learn things, I make more mistakes, I learn more things.

Guest 2 [00:13:40] And as I learn and as I grow, I think I become better. That may sound egotistical, but I don't mean it that way. But I learn things and I learn how to do things better than I knew how to do them before. And in that context, I become a little better.

Guest 2 [00:13:59] And I accept the concept that this life being a test and being a proving ground, that if I do the best I can in following the principles and precepts of the Gospel, I will have so much the benefit for it in the life to come.

Guest 2 [00:14:26] I look at where I am in life today and I say, why Am I where I am? Why wasn't I born in China? Why am I not North Korean? Why am I not, you know, any number of other things. Why am I a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I'm less than what, 1/10 of 1% of the population of the world.

Guest 2 [00:14:49] Is there some, some reason why I'm where I am or is it all just chance? Well, I choose to believe that there's a reason for why I'm where I am. And that reason goes back to the pre existence and things that I did there. Well, if what I did in the pre existence has influenced where I am and what I am in this life, then what I do in this life is going to influence where I am and what I am in the next part of my life, the spirit world, next existence, whatever you want to call it. And so whereas, yeah, there are things like temple cancellations and Missy's word do overs, they're not without expense, they're not without cost, they're not without a loss, they come with a price.

Guest 2 [00:15:45] And the more you can avoid those negative prices, the better off you'll be. But if things occur and there is a divorce in the family, it's not the end of the world. Things can be rehabilitated and families I think, can be forever.

Guest 2 [00:16:05] I don't know how that's going to work in the post existence. I certainly don't think we're all going to live in the same house. I don't think Glenn would want to live in my house with his wife and his children any more than Melissa would want to live in my house with her husband and her children. But yet we want to be together in some fashion. And Jeff, I don't know, maybe Jeff does want to live in my house with his children.

Glenn [00:16:26] He wants to be able to go downstairs. Dad,

Guest 2 [00:16:32] The point is that I don't know how it's going to work out in the, you know, in the hereafter. And I recognize that people could say it's just a giant cop out to say I don't know, but I choose to accept. But that's tough for them, I don't know. And I do choose to accept. And I think that what I do in this life is going to influence where I am and what I do in the next life. And the better I can do things here, the closer I can adhere to the principles of the gospel, not the church, but the gospel, the better off I'll be in the next life. And so I'd like to that's how I answer the question.

Glenn [00:17:11] I'd like to address just one thing that you said in there, dad, where I see a little bit of inconsistency or confusion. And, you know, you talk about the value in making mistakes and learning things and making mistakes and learning things and making mistakes and learning things. And I'm completely with you on that. But I feel like our family, and by extension, I think the church as well, really avoids putting any value into making mistakes. And, you know, you kind of put that at the end of your argument where you were talking about trying to avoid the ill effects of making mistakes as much as possible.

Glenn [00:17:54] You know, if you make a mistake and you learn, you make a mistake and you learn. I'm not saying we should encourage people to go out and sin, but it seems like if it's not a safe environment to really talk about what those mistakes are and to really get in and explore those mistakes, define them, own them, and really move on, then we're kind of in a holding pattern.

Glenn [00:18:23] That's been part of my frustration, as we're looking back 13 years on the divorce, that as a group, we may never come to a common understanding of what these mistakes were or how they were. But how much of that can we do so that we can learn from it? And so that as much as possible, my kids can benefit from that, although it's no replacement for experience.

Glenn [00:18:52] But. So if we're here to make mistakes and to learn things, why can't we talk more about those mistakes in an open, honest, safe way?

Guest 2 [00:19:06] First off, we're not here specifically to make mistakes. We're here to learn things. And in the process of learning things, we're going to make mistakes. And if you don't understand the concept of. Of repentance in the face of making mistakes, I guess you don't understand the concept of the atonement either. Because the atonement is there specifically because we do make mistakes. And it's there to bridge that.

Glenn [00:19:39] That's why I think that we are here to make mistakes.

Guest 2 [00:19:44] I don't think we're here to make mistakes so that the. The atonement has meaning. The atonement is going to have meaning

Glenn [00:19:50] because we're sent here to make mistakes.

Guest 2 [00:19:52] Because who and what we are, we're

Melissa [00:19:55] sent here to try to be perfect. And that's why we have the atonement.

Guest 2 [00:20:00] We're sent. Yes, Melissa, that's exactly correct. We are sent here to become as close to Christ as we possibly can become. We are to become as we are taught Both in the Bible, the Old and the New Testament, as well as the Mormon scriptures, that we are to become like Christ. So we're to become like God in Christ. And in order to do that, we've got to understand principles of the gospel and obey those principles of the gospel. But we're human, we're weak. We know what we should do and do other things notwithstanding. And so we're going to sin. And that's where Christ and the atonement and repentance comes in.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] So, Glenn and Melissa, am I hearing you guys say two things that maybe you guys wish that there was a little more charity towards mistake making, a little more support for mistake making, Maybe not so much as a horrible thing, but almost as a virtue and a bit of a distancing from perfectionism? Is that what I'm hearing from you guys?

Glenn [00:21:09] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] Okay.

Melissa [00:21:12] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:21:14] You don't have any desire to become better?

Glenn [00:21:18] I don't know how you get better.

Melissa [00:21:19] I have a hard time.

Glenn [00:21:21] I don't know how you connect those dots.

Melissa [00:21:24] I just think that there's so much in the world to learn from. I have a hard time believing that through the LDS Church in what a big. I mean, just even like dad was saying, why did he come to where he is? Why wasn't he born in China? What about the people who were born in China? What about the people who were there before missionaries were able to come? I just. I think there's so much pressure put on the LDS faith and the members therein to try to be perfect. And there's just so many other ways of being a good person and living a good life that if you choose to follow what the church teaches, that's great, you know, you'll be blessed for your faith.

Melissa [00:22:07] But I just think there's. I'm not articulating well what I want to say. Basically. I just. I think there's just a lot of added pressure. And it would be nice to be in a world where there's not so much pressure and a little more compassion and love and everything. It feels like in the church, a lot of times it feels like in the church, everything has an absolute that it's not. Jeff, do you want to add something? I could feel you.

Guest 1 [00:22:36] Yeah, I was just about to interrupt. It just seems to me that one of the baseline teachings with the Mormon faith is that you can only come to God into the celestial kingdom through the one and only, the one and only true church on this earth. I find that a very arrogant statement and really hard to believe that it's the only way to be saved, and that's to be Mormon. That's pretty hard line.

Melissa [00:23:14] And I don't think we need to take away from people who do believe that, because that's their tradition. That's what's important to them. And I think that's wonderful. But I just think there should be a little bit more compassion for people who don't see things quite that way.

Glenn [00:23:30] And I don't know how you go from compassion to not wanting to be perfect or not wanting to be better.

Melissa [00:23:36] Well, it's just that if you don't want to do these things, if you don't want to, you know, keep the word of wisdom, then you don't want to be perfect. You don't want to be like Christ. You know, I mean, that's like a simple thing, but if somebody's making these choices, it's a judgment automatically, you know, just even, like, you kind of threw that out there, like you don't want to be better. Of course I want to be better. I want to be a good person. I want to be a.

Guest 2 [00:24:03] And I'm the only person that's not allowed to play devil's advocate. I'm not. I'm the only person that's not allowed to throw something out for the conversation's point of view. Glenn, you're allowed to do it, but I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] No, that's fine.

Melissa [00:24:14] So don't be defensive. I'm just. We're having a conversation.

Guest 2 [00:24:18] Don't be fencing.

Melissa [00:24:20] Dad, we've had this conversation many times before.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Well, let's have dad. Let's have dad summarize where. What he feels just in balance. I think I see where Glenn and Melissa are coming from. And Jeff, that there's a virtue in eschewing perfectionism and taking some of the pressure off so that people can enjoy things more and not feel so much stress. Sometimes stress and pressure can cause people to excel and do great things, and sometimes it can cause them to crack and buckle and get depressed and be miserable. And I'm guessing that mom and dad would agree with some of that. And I'm guessing that Dad's gonna say that standards are good and important and we should strive for them.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] But he's also already said that mistakes, you can learn from them, and we're all gonna make them, and that's just a reality in life. So, dad, since you said you were playing devil's advocate, is there any summary you want to make? This sort of represents how you synthesize what's been Discussed and then we'll ask mom.

Guest 2 [00:25:29] Well, I think you summarized it fairly well. I do believe that there are standards and that there need to be standards. There is a right and there is a wrong. I would prefer to find myself on the correct side of right than on the incorrect side, on the wrong side. I also recognize that over being overly concerned about some things, nobody's going to like what I have to say, so why should I say no?

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Seriously,

Guest 2 [00:26:10] You're not going to accept it? All right. I think it's counterproductive to be hung up on things that either you don't understand or can't understand or don't want to understand. Compassion is a great thing. And having compassion. I don't see the church or see the church leaders as non compassionate people.

Guest 2 [00:26:37] I see them as extremely compassionate people. I see teachings of the church that they're trying to teach us and help us be more compassionate. But that doesn't mean. Missy, you used the word of wisdom as an example. I accept the word of wisdom. And so yes, when I see a member of the church breaking the word of wisdom, including myself, when I gluttonously eat too much, it's not the right thing.

Guest 2 [00:27:08] It's not the right thing to do. And I can't say, oh, gee, I don't want you to get stressed because you're breaking the word of wisdom. It's easy to say, and Jeff, this is not a shot at you. But it's easy to say, well, gee, to be chaste is really hard. And I don't think that's an appropriate thing. And so I don't want to get hung up on this chastity stuff. So don't talk to me about chastity. Be compassionate. That's right.

Guest 2 [00:27:34] Accept me in my. And I do accept you, but I don't accept what you've done is the right thing. But I accept and love you.

Glenn [00:27:41] I want to ask this question then because.

Guest 2 [00:27:42] So you're not going to like me?

John Dehlin [00:27:44] No, we love you, dad.

Glenn [00:27:47] This to me is really the heart of the matter, dad and everyone else that here we are in this family, you know, we have a connection that will always have, regardless of any kind of ceiling cancellation, this or that, we have this connection and how do we exist in a relationship where we don't necessarily agree on the church that's been such an important part of all of our lives. And how can we have discussions where we're hearing each other, we're listening, we're respecting each other, even in disagreement?

Guest 2 [00:28:29] Well, isn't that what we're doing right now, it is. So aren't we, in fact, doing what you're asking? How can we do?

Glenn [00:28:38] We're doing it,

Guest 2 [00:28:41] and we've done it before, and no doubt we'll do it again.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Keep doing it. All right, let's get mom in. Mom, do you have anything to add to this dilemma we've been kind of struggling with here about standards, you know, versus tolerance and pressure, versus acceptance and ease?

Love, Acceptance, and Family Communication

Mama [00:29:04] A lot has been said, and I guess what I want to say is that I really love my kids. And one of the things that is hard for me in this whole dialogue that I'm going to address before I address that is just, you know, the period of time that we're talking about.

Mama [00:29:24] The hardest thing for me was loving my kids and them not having a way of understanding. And I was a big part of contributing to them not understanding because I tried so hard to be something that I felt like was important and thought I should be and put that out there and have that be the main thing. And so. So when they talk about growing up that they only saw the particular things and they didn't see other. I worked really hard for that because it's what I wanted and what I believed. And I thought that I needed to be perfect and do it all just perfectly, even when I had really strong feelings otherwise that I just basically tried to stuff and ignore.

Mama [00:30:09] Because when I talked about it, there was no place for it to go, so I just had to stuff it and ignore it. There was nothing else for me to do with it that I knew of at the time.

Mama [00:30:19] So I had to make a lot of sense. When I was making a D word decision of how did I think about this and who was I, and where was this going? And I had to let go of a whole lot of preconceived tightness and gain flexibility and recognize that I really didn't know a lot of things and things that I thought that I knew, I didn't know, and I'm kind of still there. I have a very strong love of the Savior and testimony, and I have felt like that even in all the painful things and the hard things, as well as the amazing, joyful things that I have lived with, that I've been blessed with.

Mama [00:31:12] A lot of peace in the hard stuff. And I attribute that to the Holy Ghost. I attribute that to. You know, you can say it's what I wanted, but I don't think you can fake peace. I think you can fake like you're happy and you can Fake like you know everything's good, but I don't think you can fake peace. At least I've never been able to.

Mama [00:31:32] I don't know how to explain that. I don't know how to explain that everything that I knew growing up, everything I taught my kids growing up doesn't necessarily play out that way to me. It doesn't mean that the church isn't true or that it doesn't really work for me and that I choose for it to work for me.

Mama [00:31:58] Because I really do love the Savior and I really do recognize that I am somebody who. I guess one of the things I want to say is I think about testing when we said we're here to be tested. I don't think about it like a test in school. I think about it like.

Mama [00:32:15] More like testing to maybe, like in a scientific experiment, when you're testing to see what the different things do with one another and so on. And so we're discussing discovering who we are, who maybe we've always been from eternity. But that's how I explain it anyway, for me is I've learned more who I am and how I am so dependent on the Savior for everything because I can really screw things up, and I know that. So I have to be.

Mama [00:32:47] I mean, to me, that's been one of my biggest learning things, is that even when I was trying to do everything lockstep right, I could have a tightness inside of me. I could have a sadness inside of me.

Mama [00:33:04] And when I finally attended to that and turned to the Savior, I ended up in an entirely different place than I can explain to anybody how or why or what. I don't know those answers, and I don't pretend to at this point.

Mama [00:33:17] I just know what it is for me. And I know that even though we are not a sealed family in the way that that's talked about, that I'm not sealed to their father anymore. I feel a very deep connection and love to each of my children and to my grandchildren and to me, that matters the most. And no matter what their choices are and what they're going to be, I'm. I'm supportive and I love them. And that's all I know how to answer that.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] That's good. Well, let me. I guess I have two final questions to kind of go around the horn. And the first one we've sort of answered. And the second one will be, I think, a good way to end. But there's a way to look at all this that's very affirming and that's that you know the divorce wasn't pleasant. But I know from our previous conversation that both of you are very happy with your current spouses very much.

Unexpected Growth and Silver Linings

John Dehlin [00:34:31] And I also know that you've indicated that this has brought new levels of communication between the children and the parents than ever was perceived to be likely or possible prior to the divorce. And so I guess you want to be cautious in saying something like this, but I'll just ask the question, is it wrong to believe that sometimes there's such a thing as a good divorce, that we shouldn't look at divorce as always bad? That divorce can be bad, but divorce can be one of the most wonderful things that happens, even a temple divorce.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] And that we can't necessarily, if we're believers in God, understand why God would lead us into a marriage that then gets dissolved, but that then reconstitutes itself in some other unions that end up being better than before. But does that allow us to change how we view divorce and maybe take off some of the stigma and say that there's bad divorce and there's good divorce? Let's start with mom and then go to dad and then ask the kids to add anything.

Mama [00:35:50] One of my pat little things that probably says nothing is that I don't believe in divorce, but I'm thankful for it. And so it doesn't say anything really, other than, I guess what you're saying makes sense to me.

Mama [00:36:06] I don't understand entirely. I know my experience. I never supposed that I could be as happy as I am right now. And I have been through pretty much hell in a lot of situations in life. The worst being when my kids were feeling estranged from me. That was incredibly difficult.

Mama [00:36:27] And to have them back in my life is just incredible. And so there are prices that get paid. And if you have to go through something hard and then you really do try to grow through it and really do try to turn to the Savior, he can bless you in anything. And I think that's what the atonement's about. Maybe that doesn't answer, but it's kind of where I can. What I can say right now.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] That's beautiful. Thanks. Mom, dad, what would you add?

Guest 2 [00:37:05] I never expected that my first marriage would end in divorce. Divorce was a thing that happened to other people. It wouldn't or shouldn't happen to me, but did. I learned a lot about myself as a result of it.

Guest 2 [00:37:34] I learned a lot about my children as a result of it. And I guess I'd have to agree with what mom said in some respects that. I don't believe in divorce, but I'm thankful for it. I'm a much happier person now than I was the last years of the first marriage.

Guest 2 [00:38:05] And I think I'd also echo what I remember mom having said to me and kind of applying it both directions. I wasn't a bad guy, I was just the wrong guy. And she's not a bad person. She was just the wrong person for the full length of lives together.

Guest 2 [00:38:30] But we've both made progress from where we were individually and collectively with the kids. So I don't believe that divorce is necessarily the appropriate thing. But I can certainly see that, at least in this situation, it's benefited a mom and I substantially and hopefully it hasn't hurt the kids too much and maybe even increased in some respect the relationships that we have with them.

Guest 2 [00:39:10] It hasn't negatively impacted my understanding of gospel principles. Although clearly, as I said earlier, divorce is not necessarily consistent with gospel principles. I guess I could square it by saying that it has been a beneficial thing in my life.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Any of the children want to step in and talk about the question as posed? Please.

Glenn [00:39:47] I think to me it's kind of stripped away the fear that I have of a failed marriage where, you know, I've been married for, I better get this right, 16, 17 years. And you know, we've. We've had a lot of ups, a lot of downs and there's been times where we've contemplated, you know, are we going to stay together or are we going to break up. And I still don't know what the future holds with it. But I don't have the fear that I used to have of a failed marriage because of being able to look at my parents experiences remarrying.

Glenn [00:40:29] I don't have any illusions that there would be pain for me and for my kids if that ever happened. There would. I don't have any illusions. Yeah. That there wouldn't be. Right. I know that it would be painful for them, but.

Glenn [00:40:49] So it's changed the way that I looked at marriage. And as a result of that, I think it's actually, it's made me maybe a better husband and a father that I don't have that fear of it happening that I can just like I don't have to stuff things away and not be me because I'm afraid that if I'm me, we're going to get divorced, if that makes sense. That I say, hey, this is who I am, this is what I believe. This is who you are. This is what you believe. We're together as a choice, and every day should be a choice that we're choosing to stay together.

Glenn [00:41:28] We're not stuck to each other for eternity if we don't want to be. And I look at the ceiling ceremony very similar to what my dad described as kind of the promise of something. But I don't think that it's this magical binding force that trumps agency.

Glenn [00:41:48] I think that we will choose to be together in this life if we want to continue for this life or in the next, if that's what it's like. I don't know. And then just to comment quickly on what my mom said about turning to the Savior and how that's helped her, I agree with that. I don't know that we understand that in exactly the same way. To me, I think that turning to the Savior is trying to emulate what I understand of his characteristics. And whether I understand the Savior as a literal figure or as a fictional character from scriptures.

Glenn [00:42:26] Sometimes I vacillate between the two, and I just don't know where I stand on it. But when I think about the lessons and the way that I felt reading about his life and his example and his ministry, I feel like that's the right way to go. And I feel a lot of peace there. And it also leads to, you know, when I see inconsistencies with that, I get concerned, whether it's in my own life or others around. So just touching on what my mom said about turning to the Savior, and I'll shut up.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] Thanks, Clint. Jeff, any thoughts on the question?

Advice for Parents and Spouses Facing Divorce

Guest 1 [00:43:12] I mean, everybody's got their own circumstance that they're going through. And so, I mean, I would say that, you know, either way could be asked. I mean, for me, you know, coming from this family, through this broken marriage, you know, and I've seen, you know, the good and the bad, that second marriage from my mother was not the good. And so that kind of, I mean, could make me nervous. But then when I see, you know, what she has now, and I see what my father. Father has now, and these are true companions, I mean, that is, for me, coming from my view, just recently, being out of a marriage where I was just shy of 10 years, I stuck things out for a long time because I wanted to make sure that I didn't have any regrets.

Guest 1 [00:44:09] I look back now and I should have gotten out a lot earlier. And, you know, it is what it is. Am I all that much happier now? I mean, it's pretty. Pretty recent. There's been some huge struggles that I've been going through myself here very recently. And so, no, I can't say that I'm all that happier now.

Guest 1 [00:44:34] I'm just not in the greatest place, you know, anyways. But I see what's out there and what I can find just by looking at both of my parents at this point. I think that's a good thing.

Guest 2 [00:44:51] Gives you hope.

Guest 1 [00:44:52] Say it again.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] Gives you hope.

Guest 1 [00:44:54] It absolutely gives me hope. I can tell you that when I got into the marriage, I did not want to be divorced. I wanted to make sure that I did everything that I could to stick it out. But, you know, life is what life is and it brings lots of twists and turns and sometimes you got to roll with the punches and sometimes you also got to know when to tap out.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Melissa, anything to add?

Melissa [00:45:30] I don't know. I mean, just kind of echoing what Glenn. Jeff has said. I mean, it doesn't give my husband as much comfort as I think it should that we've come through our parents example to realize that we are in our marriages or, you know, Jeff having left by choice, that it's not that I feel that I have any, you know, specific obligation, which isn't to say, you know, of course there is and you love the person and so you want to be with them, but that's why you're there is that you want be with them.

Melissa [00:46:00] Do I think there are reasons for divorce? Absolutely. I mean, I see got lots of friends that I care about that I feel that they're in a really hard place and they feel like they have to stay married just because that's what the church teaches.

Melissa [00:46:15] And on the flip side, do I still think that this, our divorce was a good divorce? No, I still don't think it had to happen the way it did, but I accept that it happened. And we were able to work through a lot of really hard things. And obviously, you know, just with us all being here together talking about it, we are in a good place with each other and I'm grateful for that.

Melissa [00:46:40] You know, just like with anything, you can have a hard situation in your life and just try to make the best of it. So I guess those are my thoughts on that.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Sure. Well, let's end maybe on a constructive or, you know, affirming note, I asked each of you to consider a few questions before we came on tips on how to help people prevent divorce, helping people how to be more supportive of divorce, how to deal with divorce when it's happening, and how to pick up the pieces and make the most of it. And I guess we've covered a lot of that territory, probably all of it. But what I'd love to do, if it's okay, is kind of go around the horn and ask, you know, let's say that there's a couple that's really having a hard time.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] Let's say there's a woman who feels like she's trapped in a marriage. And let's start. I'll ask each of you a separate question. So, mom, let's say there's a woman who feels like she's trapped in a marriage, that she got married too young and she feels like she's losing herself.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Do you have any parting advice for that woman in that situation? Knowing that everyone has to make their own decisions, but do you have any thoughts for that person?

Mama [00:48:11] Well, you know, divorce is. If somebody's at that place, divorce is going to be hard. Marriage is going to be hard. And what I typically share with people when I do come across that sort of thing, is that it's best to get yourself in as healthy a place as you possibly can, spiritually, emotionally, physically, everything. And then you're in a better position to make a decision. And if you do it from anxiety and from fear and all those kinds of negative things, it's going to be much more difficult. And the chances of making a good decision are probably not as high. And so best to be as healthy as you can when you're contemplating it.

Glenn [00:49:01] And, mom, what. What you told me when I was a young woman first married,

Melissa [00:49:10] that was interesting.

Glenn [00:49:11] Your advice to me, which I thought was really good, was, you can make the decision for a divorce anytime. You can make the decision in six months, you can make it in a year. But once you've made that decision, you can't go back and undo it. Now, I know some people who. Who actually have tried that. It hasn't worked out very well, but I thought that was really good advice.

Melissa [00:49:35] Yeah. Thank you.

Mama [00:49:36] Yeah.

Melissa [00:49:37] I would add, just because I've talked with friends about that, I personally would want to feel that I've really done everything in my heart to know that I tried. I don't want to be able to have any regret or feel like, oh, if I could have just done one more thing.

Melissa [00:49:54] I've shared this with mom before. At the time, I didn't feel like I had seen her try again. I was one of the last ones to know about it. So that might not be a fair statement, but at the time, I held a lot of judgment because I didn't see what I thought she should have been doing to try to make the marriage work. And, you know, especially if someone has kids, it could be beneficial to just really make sure that if that's the path they choose, that they feel confident that they tried, you know, everything that they can do to make it work with, you know, with not losing themselves at all, but, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Right. Okay, dad, let's say that you're caught in a situation where. Let's say that there's a listener out there who's caught in a situation where they kind of felt like things were okay, and all of a sudden their marriage is dissolved and they don't quite understand why, and they're trying to put the pieces back together. What words of final advice or wisdom would you have for someone in that situation?

Guest 2 [00:51:02] For me, it was extremely important to realize that no matter how much I wanted something to work out in a specific way, when other people were involved, they had their agency and they had the ability to make their own decisions. And sometimes those decisions weren't the same, didn't lead them in the same direction as I was hoping that the decisions would lead to them. And so for me, it was important knowing that I was going to be looking at myself in the mirror every morning for the rest of my life, just to feel that I had done everything I could to make things work that I didn't want to feel that I had been unwilling to try and make changes if changes were what the problem was, or that I was unwilling to accept decisions that were not exactly what I would have hoped for.

Guest 2 [00:52:26] Short answer is, it was very important for me to feel that I'd done everything in my power to keep things together. And I would advise the individual that they should search their soul and search their minds and their hearts and do as much as they could of the same thing with the other party and be willing to make whatever reasonable changes were possible.

Guest 2 [00:52:54] I hedged by saying reasonable because I suppose there are some things that would be beyond my ability to accept in changing. But if I had the ability to change, to do it, or at least offer to do it and be willing to try and do it in order to salvage and protect and preserve the marriage. And if it didn't work, at least I had the comfort of knowing and believing that I had done the best I could to make it work.

Advice for Children Navigating a Family Divorce

John Dehlin [00:53:35] Okay, great. Well, let's start. Let's go from oldest to youngest. What do you guys have to recommend for a kid who's struggling with making sense of all this and trying to put the pieces back together?

Guest 2 [00:53:52] Well, can I add one more thing before we do that? I also would counsel that individual. Not to make a scene or that's not the right way to put it in my mind. Justification, self justification is not have a place in this thing. It's not a question of me being right, them being wrong. That's not the important thing. And so I would also counsel this individual that irrespective of the results of his efforts, that he do his very best not to bad mouth the other party because the other party is always going to be a part of the children's lives, whether they're a part of their own life or not. And it's not going to do any good to try and paint you as the martyr or the hard done by and the other person as the bad guy. And so I'd avoid, encourage them to avoid any of that kind of conduct.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Okay. Thanks, dad. Glenn, are you the oldest?

Glenn [00:55:12] Well, I've got some advice from the kid's perspective, but I also want to say some things to parents as well from the kids perspective. I think probably the best thing you can do is to email John Dehlin and try and get your whole family on a podcast to talk about this.

Glenn [00:55:28] No, I think for me, I think with kids it's hard because there's a lack of maturity and you know, I was 24 years old when this happened and had a lack of maturity with it. So I mean, how would it be with really small children?

Glenn [00:55:47] I don't know. I think it's really confusing for the kids. If you're older and you have the capacity to understand what you're doing. I would say try not to be angry and judgmental towards your parents. And, and there were things I did that acted out in very mean spirited ways towards both of them that I see how it hurt them and I kind of wanted to hurt them and that wasn't good and it wasn't healthy. So I would just say be careful with those things for the kids.

Glenn [00:56:24] I guess from the same perspective I would say to parents, just think about your kids and think what they're going through and try to understand them for who they are. And don't make your kids think that the church is more important than them or that principles of the church is more important than them. And if the kid says compassion, that you say, oh, so you don't want to be better, that's not a good, I don't think that's a good, healthy way for a parent to treat the kid. Don't call up the kid and say, oh, I've got my temple divorce today. And really excited. Treating them like one of your girlfriends or your best friends, having that sensitivity that Missy mentioned earlier and try to

Guest 2 [00:57:13] create

Glenn [00:57:15] for all people involved. And what my objective is that we can talk about our mistakes and accept our mistakes and. And still love each other from that and move forward with compassion. So that's my advice.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Good stuff. Thanks, Glenn. I think that is Jeff next.

Guest 2 [00:57:40] Yes.

Mama [00:57:43] All right.

Guest 1 [00:57:43] Well, coming from a kid's point of view, I mean, it's kind of tough because the rage of ages, I mean, just way out there, depending on where they're at in their maturity. I mean, the biggest thing is, you know, I mean, I guess another big thing, too, is, you know, how are those parents and how are the parents dealing with it? With the situation? Is one going off on the deep end and just being super selfish and just paying attention to what their own wants are. Are they focusing on trying to mend the situation? Because obviously it is ripping apart the fabric of what the child's understanding of life is and how the world is, because that's their family, closest thing that they're to. So, I mean, for the child,

Glenn [00:58:40] you

Guest 1 [00:58:40] know, try to grow up a little bit because you're going to have to a little bit faster than maybe what you really wanted to or really had the capacity to really understand before. You know, how life is not easy and life's not always fair. But generally speaking, I would think that both parents would always have love for the children and, you know, show that same love in return because that's going to make things, I think, a lot easier for that transition of change, you know, moving forward with the parents. I mean, you know, really focus on the kids and not just what your, you know, wants and needs are, because, you know, that's going to be your future.

Guest 1 [00:59:33] There's. It's real easy to, you know, create problems and animosity towards you if things aren't handled right, you know, correctly. I mean, just depending on who you're dealing with. But, you know, just remember that families can be too.

Melissa [00:59:58] Keyword can.

Guest 2 [01:00:00] That's awesome.

Guest 1 [01:00:04] Regardless, if you stay with the church or if you don't stay with the church or whatever is going on that is your family. There is nothing more important to me. I love my family very much. I appreciate all of them. Now. It has grown and it is different. It is morphed, you know, again, I still don't know what the answer is

Glenn [01:00:29] if there's a good divorce or a bad divorce.

Guest 1 [01:00:31] But, you know, you can always make the most of it, right?

John Dehlin [01:00:39] All right. Bring us home, Melissa.

Melissa [01:00:42] All right. Well, yeah, I guess just from the kids perspective, I've always wondered, you know, being a teenager, would it have been easier, easier if I was young and where I just grew up that way, not knowing any different or you know, as an adult where you kind of already were out of the house and you didn't have to deal with, you know, a lot of the issues which even still I, you know, I was able to avoid a lot of that with my age. But I just, I don't think it's easy at any age. But I think like they were kind of saying if you're old enough to

Mama [01:01:12] understand

Melissa [01:01:15] what's going on and just try to love your parents, try to be supportive even if you are feeling hurt or you know, don't understand it. Just, you know, try to realize that you don't know everything. You know, I wasn't there, I wasn't in my parents marriage as much as I was in their family. I don't know all the ins and outs and so I need to just love them and accept their choices and if I don't agree with them, just make different ones when I'm old enough to have that option.

Melissa [01:01:49] And I think also just from a parent's perspective, I think it's helpful if you don't try to justify your behaviors. Maybe just kind of say this is where I'm at. I don't really know why I'm here or what's going on or I don't know if it's a good thing. But I think that it can be hard for the kids when they hear things to be justified and try to make it fit into your worldview, I think that can be kind of more harmful than good. And kind of like what we mentioned before, you don't want to tell them too much, you don't want to confide in them too much.

Melissa [01:02:27] But I think again, if they're old enough to kind of know some things, trust them, trust them with the truth. And you know, for both parents and kids, just, you know, like we've been trying to do here, be honest with how you feel. Don't be afraid to say how you're feeling or this hurts me or this is how I feel or I feel misrepresented with this because it's going to be difficult your whole life. It's always going to be there, it's always going to be difficult. But if you can find a way to talk it through and respectfully disagree if you. You disagree or just, you know, just love each other through it all, I think that's the best way to move on and find peace with each other.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Well, beautiful. Great stuff. I guess I just want to take a moment to thank all of you for your willingness to do something so public and so challenging, I imagine, to be airing and discussing this stuff in public. But I think you guys did a great job. I think you offered a lot of things for people to think about and to learn from. And I guess I can't thank you enough for your willingness to come on and share your journey and your experiences with our listeners.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Glenn [01:03:47] Thank you, John.

Guest 1 [01:03:49] Thank you for having us.

Mama [01:03:50] You're welcome.

Guest 2 [01:03:51] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] Well, bless you all. And I actually am going to agree with dad and mom that I think it's gonna all work out in the end.

Guest 2 [01:03:59] How's that?

Melissa [01:04:02] I think we're all hoping for that one.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] All right, well, you guys take care. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Guest 2 [01:04:10] Thank you.

Mama [01:04:10] Bye Bye. Bye bye.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your ward bulletin and ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with the an E S k y e pixton.com thank you.

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