Introduction and Benji's Background

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 350

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin in tennis shoes, and I'm very excited to have with us today someone that I've wanted to have on Mormon Stories for many years. His name is Benjy Schwimmer. I know Benjy because several years ago my family got into this TV show called so youo Think youk Can Dance. We started on season two and it was in season two when a Mormon won the entire competition, and that was Benji. So you think you can dance? For those who don't know, I think it's produced by the same people who produce American Idol. And it's just a fabulous show. Really exciting. There are actually a couple Mormons, I think, on the show that season. And I just kind of fell in love with Benjy from that time forward and I've always wanted to interview him. Benji also has a big life outside of that TV show. He's been the world swing dance champion for, I think, 10 years plus running. He has a really significant dancing career. He's done some movie stuff, he's done music. He's done a lot of things in his career. But he's also willing to come on Mormon Stories Podcast. And so we're really excited to have him. So, Benji, thanks for coming.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:50] Thanks for having me, man. I'm really excited.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of things we're going to cover today.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] But I guess I want to give our listeners just a really heads up, a quick heads up as to some of the things we'll be covering. Benji, we're going to talk about his dance career and what led to him becoming a world class dancer. We're going to talk about what that's like to sort of be kind of a Mormon celebrity a little bit and what the challenges and issues about that are.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:26] Pseudo, Pseudo celeb.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Pseudo celebrity.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:28] Always pseudo. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Pseudo celebrity. We'll have to talk about what that means.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:33] But the D list, the E list, the.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Okay, so like the A list. Who's the A list?

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:38] Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie. Oh, all that.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] But who's the A list? Celebrity Mormon?

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:43] The Osmonds. I mean, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] And so you're a C. Or Mitt

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:47] Romney, I would say now has taken

John Dehlin [00:02:48] that C. So you're a B.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:50] No, I would say I'm like a D. Maybe, maybe a couple years back I was a little bit higher. My stock's gone down a bit in popularity.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] But we're going to talk about that and we're going to talk a little bit about his faith journey and we're going to talk a bit about, in the Mormon vernacular, his sort of experiences with same sex attraction. And we'll get more into that as we go. But I just want to give you guys a heads up from the beginning about kind of some of the things we're going to talk about. And most importantly, we're going to talk about where he is kind of spiritually now and his philosophies on life. So that's kind of at a big picture, what we're going to talk about.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] And let's just dive in. So Benji, let's begin with kind of your early Mormon story. Tell us a bit about your background, your ancestry as it relates to your early Mormon experience.

Growing Up Mormon in Newport Beach

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:43] Okay. I'm a third generation Mormon from my mother's side. I was raised in Newport Beach, California. My mother lost her dad when she was two years old and the missionaries shortly thereafter actually visited my grandmother along with five kids and they converted. Everyone converted to the family. All of my aunts and uncles on my mom's side of the family are LDs. On my dad's side he's a non practicing Jew. And, and I have members of the Hell's Angels on the other side of the family. And so a very stark contrast between the Mormon side and the non Mormon side of my family. My dad converted when I was 12 and so for the most part my parents kind of raised me very lackadais in the Mormon Church. We went to church on Sundays, but family prayer wasn't like a big prevalent thing in the home. My aunt, my mother's oldest sister, she was a very active Mormon. And in fact most of my younger Mormon influence was usually based upon my cousins and them taking us to church or meeting with the whole family going to church together. It's kind of where we were at.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] And what city was this?

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:57] Newport beach originally.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] And where is that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:59] That's in Southern California. United States of America. Planet Earth.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Like near LA?

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:06] Yeah, it's about 45 minutes south on the coast, but north of San Diego. North of San Diego, in between LA and San Diego, basically. And it's where the OC was filmed in case People watch tv. Yeah, we were raised out there for a little bit, in fact, Till I was 5 years old. And my parents decided to save some money, move into a new developing community that's a little less expensive. It's pretty expensive to live out there. And being both professional dancers, it's not a really lucrative business. So they decided to sell their dance studio and kind of pack up, as my mom was pregnant with my little sister, Lace, and we moved to a little town called Marino Valley, California. I want to say that was in 1989. No, 1990.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Where's that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:52] Merino Valley is a very interesting town. It's probably from Newport beach or from Los Angeles. It's about an hour and 15 minutes east.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Oh, okay. So it's inland.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:03] It's inland. It's called the Inland Empire for that reason. And I grew up in a very racially diverse school system for the bulk. Majority of the time, I was a minority, being a Caucasian boy there. So I was raised around a lot of different kind of cultures, environments. Some of my best friends were African American. A lot were Hispanic as well, or Asian. And because of that, I was always kind of intermixed with a big select group of people. And granted, we always went to church for the most part. I remember getting baptized in my Jacuzzi at 8 years old because my parents wanted to have all their friends that weren't members of the church to come and watch. And so they thought it'd be a little bit rowdy, possibly, for to put them inside of a stake center. And we got permission from the stake president to baptize me in my Jacuzzi.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Nice.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:53] Yeah, it was awesome. I remember I had to get baptized three times because I kept kicking my leg out of the. Out of the water. And I just remember that memory pretty fondly.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Did your parents move there to set up a dance studio?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:05] Yeah, that was the goal. My parents decided to save their money and to kind of maybe open up a dance studio in a budding community. At the time, a lot of people were moving into Moreno Valley. Actually, a lot of LDS people were moving into Marino Valley at the time. I think that happens a lot, at least in the western half of the United States. If there's a new community or project, Mormons tend to like to fill in groups. I mean, they kind of do these little exoduses, I believe, to just kind of build and start establishing stakes and this and that. And to this day, there's a lot of stake centers there in Moreno Valley. It's a tiny city, but there's a lot of LDS people and influence there.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] So were your early years like hanging out at the dance studio while your parents were teaching people to dance?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:47] Yeah, for the most part. Actually we didn't even have a dance studio for many years. My dad at the time was traveling around the world kind of like I do now, actually teaching and adjudicating at big dance conventions, weekend workshops, lectures, such as I do now. And my mom stayed with us half the time and the other half the time we had a nanny who was LDS and she would actually bring us to church a lot and her family was very active in the church and so I know when we went to a ward within a week my parents met her in our sacrament meeting and they said, do you want to be a nanny? And she's like, awesome, let's do it. She was 18, just graduated high school and she took care of my sister and I quite a bit. We call her Kimbo. And so Kimbo was pretty actually paramount I think in my spiritual upbringing as a child. Just because she was the one that consistently had like a night prayer and read a scriptures and we watched, I don't know, we watched Saturday's Warrior together. We watched all sorts of fun little Mormon films that I still remember to this day being from that influence so long ago.

Being Raised in a Dance Family

John Dehlin [00:08:51] So let's talk about the early dance stuff just really quickly so you know, I can think about like kids who are raised with dads who care about baseball or basketball or football. You know like the Todd Marinovich you're going to be a quarter and giving the kid this sort of football when he's in the crib and raising him to be a pro football player.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:10] Yeah, dude.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Were you raised to be a dancer and what was your life like in terms of dancing as a young kid?

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:17] Dancing was pretty much everything that my family had. I mean it's all that we did. There wasn't a moment where I wasn't probably in my room ripping clothes apart or stealing things from my mom and my dad and making like a ninja samurai warrior outfit to do a dance performance for my family or I. I was really into big old 80s dance movies and I would play them in the background or play records at the time and do full on shows for everyone in the neighborhood. I started an imaginary dance, which movies Flash Dance, Flash Dance, Staying Alive, Dirty Dancing. I hated Dirty Dancing at the time, but I love it now. Cynthia Rhodes is the bomb. She's the blonde one, she's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] But Staying Alive, Dirty Dancing, Flashdance, A

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:00] Chorus Line, those Are probably my four top ones.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Fever.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:03] Yeah, I liked that one. But I was more into the 80s stuff like headbands, rhinestones, League One. I was all about it.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Okay, all right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:09] But on the flip side too, I played soccer for 11 years, so it wasn't like I was just into the arts, but that was my focal point. That was what I did 247 for the most part.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Were your parents like some of us were raising kids, right? And we're thinking, how do we raise our kids? Were they like, you're gonna dance?

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:25] You know what's funny is the biggest focus that my parents always gave me is they never stifled my creativity. If I said one day and I was that kind of kid, every week I'm like, I want to be a fireman. They would buy me, you know, plastic fireman's hat and I would love that for a day. My parents never force fed me. You will become a dancer. Never. Never. They never once forced my sister or myself ever to dance. And it's something that I always wanted to do when I was. The only time I ever did that. I think the first video of me dancing was before I could walk. And my parents had a big dance camp that they had in the summer. And they were holding me. They took a johnny jumper. I don't remember those little bouncy things that we used to sit in as k. And they cut the cords off of the plastic bearings, right? And they did a little soft shoe routine holding onto each side. And here I am bouncing my legs at like 18 months or something like that, rhythmically actually, which is kind of funny.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Do you have pictures of this?

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:19] I have video of this actually. Yeah, I'll have to look that up. But I remember the first time my parents took me to a big convention as a little boy. I'd be 1 years old and blaring music. Midnight, 12 o' clock in the morning. These big swing dance events or a ballroom event. And I'd be asleep under one of the little tables, wrapped up in my parents sport coats and jackets. So loud. Music, culture, older people just dancing with adults was something that I just did as a little kid. And it was very natural to me. Not talent wise as a dancer. I wasn't a very good dancer. Little videos of me as a kid, I was terrible, but I was a ham. I could perform anything and sell it and I could get a standing ovation for mediocre dance performance. But the performance aspect I was good at as a little kid and dancing didn't start clicking with me. In the physical kinetic aspect till I was about 17 or 18.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Okay, wait a minute. So were you, like, at some point saying, I want to be a great dancer. I want to really work at this. When did that start?

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:18] Yeah, you know, going out through school. I always wanted to be an anesthesiologist. I don't know why, but I wanted to do it. I thought I was going to go to medical school. I thought I was going to use dance as a little kid. As a little kid, I wanted this. I wanted to be a doctor. Just because everyone used to say, oh, you know, being a doctor is the hardest thing you can do. You know, the schoolwork is so difficult. I'm like, I'll do it then. And I always wanted to prove people that I could do something, I guess. And, yeah, I guess that had a lot to do with it. So growing up, I was always dancing. I was always doing dance competitions as a little boy, and I loved doing it.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] But not because you wanted to be a dancer?

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:51] No, I loved doing it, but I thought it was going to be something that I would do as a kid. Maybe use it as a scholarship to go to the Y.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] How much do you practice in a given week?

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:01] As a little kid, not as much. I would dance on my own more than anything. I would play those 80s dance movies and dance my heart out all night.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] When did you start training or practicing?

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:11] I started training a lot, you know, during my adolescence. Like 12, 13, 14 through 16.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay, so in your late, you know, 8, 9, 10, you weren't like, in the studio?

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:19] No, we didn't have a studio at the time. And so my parents actually laid out stick tile. I remember this black and white checkered stick tile in our garage. And they would just, you know, have all their tapes and records at the time, and I would just play them and they just let me go. I mean, they never had to really hire a babysitter for myself.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] And you just loved it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:37] I loved it. Loved it all. And I would watch movies. I was really inspired by the most random films and the most random styles and this and that.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Would you, like, put a TV up and dance to the TV all the time? I would ask some examples of a routine.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:50] For instance, okay, so Staying Alive. It's part two to Saturday Night Fever. It's rated as one of the worst sequels of all time. John Travolta headband, loincloth, leg warmers. It was awesome. It was so much fun. And theoretically, it's actually a really racy movie. And as a little boy, I Would just fast forward and watch all the dance parts. As a little boy, I was also. I mean, my parents took me when I was a little kid to Follies Bridgere in Las Vegas, which is a topless dance show. But it wasn't a striptease. It wasn't something like that. My parents. At a very early age, I was very. I think I had a big taste of adult contemporary art. And the value in that and not confusing that with vulgar, explicit sexuality. That has always been something that I was very exposed to at a very young age. I was exposed to gay people. I was exposed to drinking. Never drank. My parents never drank. I've never seen my parents ever hold a glass of wine. And in fact, in pictures, if someone's like, can you hold this really quick? They would do this. Even when my dad was not LDS, he converted when I was 12. He never drank, never once did a drug, nothing. My parents were really cool about that, actually. Very word of wisdom in that moment. Anyways, I digress. But yeah, so John Travolta does this big performance at the very end where it's a battle between heaven and hell. And so I took this really ugly brown towel that we had, I think from, like. I want to say it's from the Di or something. Desert Industries. It's like a thrift store for the church, in case those are those. Those that don't know, but. And I cut it up and I wore it, like, I would wear, like, my Snoopy underpants, right? And I would put my loincloth over it. I'd wear the headband and I would. I learned the whole routine. Like, at 10 or 11 years old, I did the whole routine that he did.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] In your garage?

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:37] Yeah, in my little garage. And we moved later on, like, when I was 13, I believe we moved to another house where there was like a little dance room. We had mirrors and everything. And I would literally till 11, 12 before I had to go to bed to go to school. I would finish my homework really quick and just do it and just dance and sweat. And then I would play ballroom competitions of, like, the top world champions. And I would see them spin really fast. And I'm like, I want to learn that. So most of my training actually came from just visually looking at TV performances, music videos. Michael Jackson was obviously the biggest influence that I had. And I remember at 4, this is a funny story, at 4 years old, my dad, from a student of his, had extra tickets to go to Michael Jackson concert in LA at the Universal Amphitheater. And I was elated. Like, at three years old, I did a live impromptu performance which is called the US Open Swing Dance Championships, which is our world championships in swing. And it's funny because 14 years later, I would win that competition. But before, and I couldn't even compete. I was too young. And I actually asked the person that was the MC in the middle of a competition, can I do a dance performance. I snuck out of my parents table, they were talking to somebody, and I put on this rhinestone head headband, right? And these glasses with the little cuts through them. And I put on this red jean jacket and like a tie dye T shirt and black skinny jeans kind of like this and these sparkly Converse. I remember this. And I asked him, I'm like, I need to do a performance. He's like, let the kid perform. And so I said, what do you want to dance? Bad Michael Jackson. I want to do bad by Michael Jackson.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] So you would imitate the actual.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:08] Totally, yeah. I was terrible. I had a head the size of my head. I have a large head to begin with. And my body was really tiny. I think my head was the same size then as it was now, as it is now. Anyways, to make a weird story short, I remember going in front of 1500, 2000 people and having him wait. He said, here he is, little Benji Schwimmer buddy and Laurie's son. And then I refused to walk out till he called me Michael Jackson and I tugged on his jack. I'm like, you have to call me Michael Jackson. So until he said that, two years later, I'm at the concert and he says, michael. I went home and I told my mom, like, Michael Jackson spoke to me. He said he talked to me. And my mom's like, no way, you kidding me? My dad was doing this. Like, no, he just said hi to everybody, like, I love you, I love you. You know, Michael does that. And so from then on, I thought Michael Jackson spoke to me. And I was supposed to be like a megastar performer like him. I always wanted to do that. I started my own band when I was five, but no one would play and I didn't play any instruments. So I had a fake microphone and I had these little stop signs and yield signs that were about this tall that I would write my little scooters around as a little boy and I would put wigs on them and I would perform. I had a band called the Cherry Bomb Sparklers Band. And I would write songs and sing. And I thought. I thought I was a megastar. I would have concerts for all the kids in my block as a little boy.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] So your creativity came from just your own self entertainment?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Your own self exploration.

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:36] Yeah, completely.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] So there's never this point in your late, you know, 8, 9, 10, early teen years where your parents were like, you need to dance and I want you to get good at dance. And you know, why aren't you practicing? You ever practiced?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:50] No. In fact, I did partner dancing at first. I would freestyle and do this by myself. But I was never really trained in contemporary ballet, hip hop, any of that. So I would just freestyle like Michael Jackson, dance around, copy. My mom, she was a jazz dancer and a ballerina and a gymnast. My dad was a hustle ballroom swing dancer. Like he used to like pop and lock. He used to do all these things back in the disco era. And of course I think parents, you know, they want to see you follow in their legacy in footsteps. And more than anything, I had more pressure, I think from other people, outside influences saying, gosh, you need to stick with this, you're so adorable, or I love the audience. I didn't care to win competitions. I wasn't passionate. I'd never been competitive about beating other people. I think one time in all my life I've actually walked into a competition saying, I want to beat this person.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] So what was the drive?

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:39] The drive was that standing ovation, I think loving approval maybe.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Loving approval or making people happy, what

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:45] was it, I think more than entertaining people, whether it was in front of 5,000 people at 11 in Germany doing a family performance that we did, or in front of just three people or even at church. I remember I was in junior high in Woodshot class and I hated my teacher. It was his last year before he was about to retire. He didn't like me because I was hyperactive and I was always dancing around, but I was always getting my work done. I was a straight A student up until the time I was in high school and in fact I was two years ahead. I graduated at 15 from high school. So it wasn't something that I neglected that, that side of work because I thought I was going to be a doctor. You know, I always said that in the back of my mind. And anyways, yeah, I remember he used to yell at me and say, you know, get your work done early. And I said, fine. And one time he just started chewing me out in the class saying, you know, you got to stop moving around and dancing. You can hurt something. And I'm like, okay. And so finally we came to an Agreement that if I get my work done enough, if I sit still for 45 minutes of an hour class, he'll let me do a performance of stand up comedy, a dance piece, or he would let me freestyle rap for five minutes, the last five minutes of class, and I would.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] And you love that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:58] Why, that was hysterical. You know, I was very. I was growing up, I was pretty popular at a good group of kids in elementary school. But at the time, in that era, being a dancer was not cool. And very early on, there are always a couple of weird, heinous comments. Obviously, there's a taboo and a stigma being a male dancer. That you're gay or that you're effeminate or that you're, you know, you're girly, you want to be a girl. And it's funny because I never identified that way. Like, I never identified me being effeminate or being like, I played sports, I played basketball with my buddies, you know, I had girlfriends. And it wasn't that for me at all. It wasn't my way to express myself or anything like that in any way, shape or form. But I remember in particular there was one moment, there's two kind of like traumatizing moments that I had growing up in school that really did me in. And that made me realize that I almost wanted to prove people wrong in all aspects. I wanted to be that male dancer that was a strong male dancer, that was funny and entertaining. That was the good Mormon boy that did everything right. I mean, there was this really weird contrast because people thought I was this wacky kid that would wear weird colored ties to church. And so I was never fully accepted in church. I was always kind of viewed as a character or as this oddball that some even parents had stayed away from him at an early age. Even though I was passing the sacrament, I was a good boy, you know. And on the flip side, I was at school and I was this wacky kid there too. So junior high era, sixth grade in particular, it got really, really bad. I was made fun of a lot. I didn't have my growth spurt for another, like two years. So everyone started growing ahead of me and I got bullied so much. I mean, there wasn't a day for what? For being a dancer.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Your kids at school knew you were a dancer?

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:53] Yeah, I mean, they totally knew I was a dancer. It's something I never hid. I was not that kid. There's a lot of closet dancers we say that grew up, I mean, a lot of. One of my closest friends, he's a great swing dancer, champion dancer, and he played volleyball and basketball in school and he never once told a soul. It's different now with YouTube and with media. Like, you can't hide that. And then again, too, it's kind of cool to be a dancer now. It's actually really cool to be a dancer now, so. But. But at the time, it was considered gay and bad.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] But you were. I'm just trying to get a sense. You know, I have my kids and I'm always thinking about their development and I'm always wanting to encourage them to be excellent at something it's not. I hit roadblocks. Right. And I realize what I'm hearing you say is that your excellence hasn't come from parents pushing. It's more like they put you in an environment, they give you an example, they give you exposure and lots of nurturing, and then you define it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:48] They gave me an open palette and they gave me every color that I could paint with. That's what my parents did for me. We didn't have a lot of money growing up. I mean, we struggled. You know, a dancer's life is not as glamorous as it may seem. Like you look at all the rhinestones on the floor, and each one of those rhinestones was 25 cents. And we glued it ourselves and we would recycle them. I, as a little boy, to have rhinestones on my costume sounds really weird, but to have rhinestones or whatever on my costume. I would literally go to ballroom competitions as a little boy, wait till they were done. And I would pick up the ones that had fallen and put them in like a little bag. Yeah. I mean, they have a street value. You know, it's like crack cocaine. You know, like, those things are pretty expensive.

Early Competition and Identity as a Dancer

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So in sixth grade, you're self identifying as a dancer, but not because you want to become a professional dancer, because you want to become a doctor.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] So what are you? Why are you even self identifying? You're dancing in your garage.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:41] That's what I did.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] You're not competing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:43] I competed at the time.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Okay, so you were competing by junior high.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:46] By five years old, I was competing.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Okay, so you were competing the whole time?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:49] Yeah, and I would win. I would win money. You know, a fifth place check still gave you 50 bucks, and that was pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] But you weren't training, like, formally training.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:57] I wasn't taking deep classes. What we would do, there would be maybe one swing dance. At the time, swing dancing was an adult person sport. It wasn't something that kids did And I was one of the three couples in the United States that competed. And it was always just between us three couples every year. And there would only be one event, maybe two events throughout the year that we would compete. So it wasn't something that we were like training, you know, every week. It's not like an ice skater where they have an ice skating competition every other weekend. It is now, but it wasn't like

John Dehlin [00:25:24] that where you're like five hours in

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:25] the studio, right, Training. They also had sponsorships. Like it was expensive. We couldn't even be out at certain hours because people would be smoking and drinking. And in fact, a lot of the swing dance crowd, they would love us, they would clap for us on the floor. But a lot of professional dancers said, this is not a place for a kid to be, okay? There's a lot of drunken behavior, you know, like most people would social dance till four in the morning. And if you weren't plastered with at least a couple of shots of whiskey in you, then you weren't a swing dancer. At the time. My parents were like the anti thesis to that. And because they were so different and they were considered oddballs in everything that they did, right? A ballerina marrying a disco dancer. And they're dancing swing and ballroom and doing jazz performances and going to Vegas and choreographing for professional TV shows and this and that. They were the oddball. So I identified as it's okay to be different. It didn't bother me, you know, to be this and that. And I think there's always this duality. Like I was a dancer, but I probably knew that I would someday become a doctor. And the reason why is because we were so poor. I wanted to be able to help support my parents. You know, we weren't going to have a retirement. I learned that in school pretty quickly. We don't have a pension plan or insurance. And that was a tough thing to deal with whenever someone was hurt or injured. I mean, it was something where it's like, you know, we're gonna have to scrap and save pennies. This happened frequently, you know, or help from the church or dinners from the relief society. This happened quite a bit. My parents. I remember my dad got into a really bad car accident. His knees were busted, the steering wheel crushed both of his kneecaps. I mean, that's our bread and butter right there. And so this is when I was 13, 13 years old. And that was the day that my mom, she actually had a very bad health issue at the time. She was suffering From a very weird version of Vertigo. She couldn't teach dance. And literally, at 13, I taught my very first dance lesson. And at 13 years old, that's when the bug started hitting me to kind of pursue this and to be a little bit more passionate about it. I would go to this bar called the Branding iron in San Bernardino, California. My mom would. Or a babysitter would drop me off, and I would teach all adults at a drunken cowboy bar till midnight and get paid and get paid. But all that money went to the family. That went to food on the table.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:36] I didn't save up for anything. That was money to help my family out for a good six months. But because of that, when my dad healed during those six months, he wasn't working yet. I actually took over a lot of his gigs, and I actually started getting my own following. Had my own classes at 14 weekly in our garage that we had. And then little by little, that helped us actually develop a clientele big enough to open up a dance studio.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] So that tragedy sort of led to. Oh, yeah, to some of the more important parts of your formative career.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:04] Again, proving it wrong, proving people wrong, that we're not going to fall on our butts here, but we're going to survive.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Okay, so you were competing from a young age?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] And you were dancing in competitions all along? Yes, but not, like, training five hours a day in a formal studio.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:22] Like, that didn't happen until I was 13.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Okay. Okay. So you were telling us a story about in sixth grade, something people were making fun of you?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:30] Yeah, I was. I mean, every day. I mean, every day I was pushed into lockers. I mean, it was literally that atypical, like, bullying situation. It got to a point where anything. Any physical activity I walk in, people would throw food at me and call me faggot.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] So they were calling you gay from.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:50] Oh, yeah. From that point on? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Was it because you're a dancer or because they thought you acted gay?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:56] Probably both. Not gay in the sense of an effeminate man, but gain the sense that I was artistic. If there was a song in my head, whether it was a rap song or a pop song, I'd whistle it or I'd sing it. Walking down the halls in school didn't bother me. I didn't care. I never let anyone stifle my creativity. The only people that I think that could have done it were my folks, my parents, and they never did. So why do I care if Joe Blow, little idiot, you know, is making fun of me? It didn't really bother me that much. It didn't make me change.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] But you paid a price for it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:30] Paid a huge price. And it got to a point, for a year, I took it. I let everyone just kind of bully me around. I would avoid the situation. I got into a fight at least once a week. Literally once a week. And then the growth spurt hit. And then I got a little, like, maybe it was the pubescent aggressive behavior that sometimes we have. But then I started fighting back. And so it went from less of like, you're a fag, you're gay, to, you know, the slurs of bullying about being gay. And it was more about just weirdo, more about being fancier kid and weird this and that. And so it died down a lot more because I would punch back. I would. Or I got very quickly. I was very easy to verbally respond and put people down. And in fact, it was encouraged by one of my. One of my. I think it was the vice principal at the time of my junior high. She told me. She's like, you need to find a way to stop fighting physically and just squash it. So I did. It's gonna sound really weird, but I became a TA to avoid a lot of those conflicts. She let me be a TA for like, three periods in junior high.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Teaching assistant.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:33] Teaching assistant. So I would assist video production. So I started playing with cameras, and I actually started doing these, like, morning announcements that were played every morning live. And I would both press the record button and run around, read the announcements, press a video that I made the day before to entertain. Entertain people the credits. I would dub music, and I made a side business off of it because if someone liked somebody, I would, like, charge them $5 on the side and have them. And I would put all that money to dance stuff. I would always consistently find weird ways to take care of myself and survive.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] So always an entertainer.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:09] Always. Always.

Early Thoughts on Sexuality and the Church

John Dehlin [00:31:11] So what did you think about homosexuality in sixth grade or seventh grade or eighth grade? Did you even think about it? How did you think about it?

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:18] I knew what gay was at 5, so before even that, I knew what gay was. And at the time, we had lots of gay friends. My parents had so many gay friends. I mean, dance community, come on. Artists, you know, there's a good chance that 90% of them, if they're men, are gay, especially if they're single. And so, you know, I knew gay people from the get go. Wasn't a big deal. But I also. There was this weird duality with me. And this is a very Traumatizing experience. But I think it's actually pretty poignant with the rest of the story. The day I was baptized. Right at the time, I think when I was five years old, I remember I had a crush on my best friend. I'm not going to name his name because people would probably know who that is.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] When you were how old?

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:01] 5 guy. So I knew then that I was different in that sense. And I knew that a lot of the boys and girls didn't identify that way. But on the flip side, too, I had girlfriends that I was infatuated with. I mean, infatuated with. So it was this. Both to me, I just kind of liked people. I liked certain people for their candor. The way they dressed or the way they played sports, the way that they colored on a coloring book. There was always something that I liked about people. It wasn't just this gender identifying thing as a child. And I think a lot of children are like that to begin with, before adolescence kind of sets in. But I remember one time, my best friend at the time, we were. We were in, ironically, the same Jacuzzi that I got baptized in before I was baptized. And I remember his big sister was babysitting us at the time. And as some kids do, there is an element of experimentation that happens to straight kids, it happens to gay kids, it happens to many people. And there was this curiosity of like playing doctor kind of what is. Leave it at that.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] With a male friend.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:04] Yes. With my age, five or six at the time, maybe. Maybe even seven.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:10] But this kind of happened not very often. It was. It was very innocent. It was never sexually driven in any way. I was five or six. I mean, come on, you know. But there was an element of experimentation and curiosity that I was really infatuated with. And I figured, well, since we're best friends and we're boys, we must be boyfriends. That was my mentality, you know, like, that was my logic as a kid. But I didn't put being boyfriends as being gay. Like, I didn't identify the two because I thought being gay was being these flamboyant dancers that I'd met that would dress in drag and do performances at our dinners with family or I don't know, that had these funny accents and these bent wrists and I didn't identify that. We used to play basketball together, me and my best friend, and we went to church together. Like we were in Sunday school together. So it was never an issue for me at the time. But the day of my baptism, I got baptized And I was very closely in age with my best friend at the time who was getting baptized like a month later. So he and his family were there. And that same sister that was babysitting us, I guess, had watched us and saw what we were doing. And she was trying to. She had mentioned one thing after I got baptized, and my cousins were like, you know, congratulations. Congratulations, Ben, you're a man now. And, you know, you're a member of the church. It's so awesome. I was so happy to be baptized. And I remember she walked in and I don't know if she's trying to flirt with him or act cool. She was like, 17 at the time. She's like, he doesn't deserve to be a member because he's a faggot. She's like, I saw him kissing my brother in the Jacuzzi whenever, a while back. And I remember, like, just throat closed up, and I didn't know what to say. I just. White as a ghost. I'm in front of, like, my two cousins that were about to serve missions that I looked up to dearly. And she said this. And I'm sure they don't even remember this story. I'm sure it was just like, oh, shut up. I remember he brushed it off. He's like, whatever. Like, shut up. Yeah, whatever. You're a liar. And thank heavens, like, he brushed it off. But to me, in that moment, there was this, I don't know, this seed planted in my head, this trauma, theoretically, where I would prove people wrong that I wasn't gay, that I wouldn't let them know that. That I could be that dancer, that good Mormon boy that was baptized. I understood the element of being a sinner very quickly. At 8, you know, what is good, what is bad? And I identified as being a faggot in that moment. That's how it was said to me, in that moment, as being bad. I remember something was said that I would burn in hell and this and that. And, you know, there's this weird. You know, this weird thing that was built up inside me that I would never let anyone know about this. In fact, even that best friend. I'm like, we. When we walk around with each other, like, we remain friends for a little bit after that, maybe another two years. But even then, like in junior high, I needed to distance myself because I didn't want people to suspect anything, that something had happened or that I was gay.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Did you think of yourself internally? That you. Did you suspect that you might be, or did you not even go there? Consciously for yourself.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:09] It would be like in those moments when you're an active member of the church that's faithful. And maybe every once in a while you would question something, briefly, is it true?

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Could it be true?

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:17] Yes, very, very much so. Like that. And the funny thing was, is I had girlfriends in those moments. It didn't matter. But then again, like, I was really close to some of my male friends as well, and I was always infatuated with one for some reason. But at the time, it wasn't sexual. Right. It would always be that term, homosexual. And I'm like, well, I'm not thinking about anything bad. Or I just like, his teeth. I had braces at the time, you know, or something like that. Something that I didn't have that they had that I admired in them. Or he plays soccer better than I do, or, I don't know, he's really smart in math. Whatever it was, there was something that identified this polar attraction to them.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] But not sexual necessarily.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:53] No, no. That didn't happen until mid adolescence. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] Just interest or affection.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] In a global sense.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:00] In a global sense. In a very universal appeal. The same way that, you know, guys can say, I have such a man crush on that dude because he's just so cool. He's got it together.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Really respected. Really? Love and respect.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] Yeah. And appreciation.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:13] Romantic. Less than romantic.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] All right, so there was this kind of like, occasionally, whoa, I wonder if. But no, I'm not. And so you would.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:21] Or I would say, you know what? That's something that I'm never going to address.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] You're just not going there.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:25] The moment that I'm like, I guess I'm kind of gay. Nope.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Okay. Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:29] Shut up.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:30] Shut up, Benji. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] And you were attracted to women.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:33] Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] But by the time you hit puberty, you, prior to that, would get aroused being with a woman.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:40] So totally holding hands with a girlfriend. Sixth grade. I remember this one girl. Yeah. I mean, definitely I was. In fact, we'd hold hands and I would be like, holding a gym book in front of me.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:52] I don't know if that's too.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] I got it. I think we got it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:55] Sorry. It happens.

What the Church Meant in His Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Okay, so let's switch tracks a bit to what the church meant for you in your teen years. Up to your mission.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:05] That's great. Yeah. Again, my parents weren't the most devout members of the church in terms of tithing was never really paid. I never had a family home evening in my life. The only times we'd have something remotely like that was when a visiting teacher or someone from the Relief Society would come over or whatever, a home teacher would come over. And that was rare, too, because at the time, it wasn't pushed as hard, especially where we lived. But we would still go to church at least once or twice a month, sometimes, like devoutly. And in particular, if my parents were gone, I would always go with my babysitter, my nanny at the time. And so I got the priesthood at 12, just like everyone else. I had callings. And I remember one thing that was really interesting is I remember seeing the boys in church, the ones that had the perfect parted hair, that had the perfect square, regal, royal knot that I mastered on my mission, but I don't do now because I think it looks really bulky and ugly. Anyways, I remember, like, they for some reason would get called to be the present of, like, the teachers quorum or the deacons. And that's something that I never got. I was always this goofy kid, but in class I was. I think I was fairly reverent, not irreverent. And I loved reading the Scriptures and I loved going to church, and I loved singing the hymns, and I loved bearing my testimony more than anything. There was something about where I felt like I wasn't on. I wasn't trying to entertain people. It was just something that I devoured divinely, felt at the time. And as a little boy, I had spiritual experiences that I remember very, very wonderfully still to this day. Now, can it be explained ones that you're comfortable? Yeah, at this point, I'll throw anything out there, really. But I remember there was a couple of experiences as a boy. I remember at probably 10 years old, I was sitting there and it was the. I remember I was gone too long. I didn't attend church. I was traveling with my family in Europe doing dance shows for a month. And it was during, like, the primary preparation presentations. So I think they let me go up there and quote an article of faith or a scripture or something, and I walked back down and I watched. But I remember when, like, the sunbeams, like, the younger kids were singing, what's the song? I know it in Spanish. Go figure.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] What is it?

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:27] A baptism. The song, Baptism, the primary hymn. Like in Judea,

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Jesus came to John

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:34] the Baptist and Judea long ago. And I remember crying my eyes out and remembering the fact that maybe I'd done things bad before I was baptized, even though I wasn't even at the age of accountability. But I remember the stuff that I did with my best friend right And I remember remembering my baptism and hearing them sing and hearing the purity in their voices. And something about that touched me. I mean, I'm getting like, touch, like a little emotional about now. Yeah, sorry. Oh, wow. So random.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] What happened?

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:08] I just was touched. I just remember hearing that and feeling like an overwhelming sense of peace, like that I made the right decision. And it wasn't even like a decision at the time. Like, you know, it's very, this is what I'm doing, you know. But I remember I had a strong influence from both my babysitter, from my mom's side of the family, especially my aunt and uncle, my cousins, in particular my cousin Heidi, who I danced with for almost 19 years. She was like a big sister to me. We lived together and spent more time together than I think even my little sister Lacey and I did for earlier parts of my life. And she would read her scriptures and she would talk about seminary when I was not her age. She was a little older than I was. Although I shouldn't say that she'd be killing me right now for saying it. But anyways, I remember being touched like that as a child. I remember going up and bearing my testimony and feeling peaceful about talking about, you know, families can be together forever and loving that idea. And maybe it was because my family wasn't the perfect LDS cookie cutter family that I thought everyone else in that room was. Looking back, I laughed. You know, looking back, I laugh because I was made fun of so much by so many kids in church. And then there was that 50, 50. I think that's always how church is always going to be, you know, And I think there was a talk a few years back in conference where I talked about, you know, only half of you that claim to be active members really are probably going to make it. And I believe in that. I believe that about half the members of the church really have always stuck out and have been like, have really been good, true Christians in my opinion, or at least to me and my family being a little bit of an outsider, a little different, and maybe the other half is a bit more Pharisaic. So there are many moments like that growing up where I did that. And I always just desired to strive to be a little bit more like those boys that were getting called to be the deacons representative or quorum advisor. I don't know what they name it now, but I wanted that. Like, I wanted to be someone that was accepted well in the church. And I wanted, and I felt like my talents could be well used there.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] What Role. Did the law of chastity and word of wisdom play in your teenage years?

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:17] It was everything. I was a quote unquote. I was a good Mormon boy. I'd never broken the law of chastity or the word of wisdom. I can faithfully say that.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Up to your mission.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:30] Yeah. And then after. Yeah. If we're about talking, just prior to going through my mission, never. Never once, Never something that was really an issue. I was a good boy. I really was. Like, I had attractions to boys, and I felt weird about that, but I never really exercised them, ever, in the physical sense, so never did.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] And you kept it clean with the girls?

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:52] I kept it clean with the girls. I did at times. And I always felt good about it. I felt like I was doing good. When I made out with a girl, when I kissed her, there wasn't any petting or touching or anything like that. But if there's ever a moment to play spin the bottle or to kiss a girl or to hold her hand in public, I loved it. I felt like I was scoring straight points too. So it was like a double whammy. My parents were always like, go, Benji. They were always really trusting in me. My parents were more big, older friends to me, like, the whole thing. They let me create, they let me put weird makeup on. They let me do weird shows like that. I kind of laugh about my mom. I'm like, they never once suspect that I was gay as a kid, and yet I have a video of me at 12 years old in drag, dancing to Rolling on a River, performing for my whole family, and them crying, laughing.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Did high school friends ever ask you

Benji Schwimmer [00:44:40] about, you know, my friends never questioned anything. My friends were the ones that said, he's weird, he's goofy, he's a nerd, he's creative, and they liked it, and that's all that mattered. And I had girlfriends with them. I dated almost every girl that I was friends with at one point or had, like a deep crush on them always. And my guy friends would be like, yeah, he's a little weird, but I mean, seventh, eighth grade, ninth grade, middle of, you know, high school, junior high era. A lot of my friends would step up and fight for me. I mean, they were good kids and it was partially Mormon, but more. I was actually more with the Bordeaux and Christian crowd. I wasn't really good, good friends, with the exception of a couple of girls. The Mormon boys I wasn't really friends with growing up in junior high. I think it's because I was different. And they didn't like that. So I actually had more. They never made fun of me, but they just ignored me in school. But the born again Christians were always encouraged to especially save the Mormons. So I would always, like, have good friends in them randomly enough. Right. So I felt that kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] So talk about what the church meant to you, up to your mission.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:47] So my parents, again, were never stifled. The fact that I went to church. Like, there were moments I had. I started trying to go to seminary. And that was really tough because sometimes, you know, I would go to school throughout the day, eat dinner with the family, do homework, and then I would dance till midnight in your garage.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Oh, once you started teaching, now we

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:08] have a dance studio. Yeah. And so it was a family business and my parents couldn't pick me up from school. I was rollerblading from school to house to do homework, to feed my dogs, to do chores, and then to come to the dance studio and teach classes for a couple hours, then train for a couple hours with my dance partner. My dance partner Heidi and I, we would stop rehearsing sometimes to one in the morning. I was obsessed. We were possessed.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Trying to win national championships, trying to

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:34] win national championships, trying to get better. We started really late and going into ballroom dancing too. And that was something we were really passionate about. And yeah, so that it was kind of interesting, you know, I was just driven.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] So seminary was hard to do.

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:49] Seminary in the morning was hard to do. But I did make up seminary. I did seminary independently. I did independent study seminary. When I would travel on trips, mostly in airports and airplanes and in hotel rooms, I would be reading the scriptures and filling them out and like filling these booklets that they have out.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] What role did prayer and scripture reading play in your teenage adolescent years?

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:09] As a kid, I would always feel really guilty for not being the best prayer person. There were times where I would literally get home so exhausted, I would fall asleep on my knees trying to pray. But I would just be out cold, Heavenly father, and just be dead, you know. But prayer has always been a big thing. Before I would ever dance in class or before every dance competition I remember, I would pray by myself. I would pray with my cousin Heidi. Prayer has always been something really good. At the time, my parents, and I think it's okay to say this, they were not doing good between the two of them, relationship wise. And there was a lot of fighting at night. And I would be protective of my little sister more than anything. And I would just pray that things would be okay because I wanted our family to Be together forever. They weren't sealed in the temple together. My dad had still, I think, the Aaronic priest. I think he still does. And that was really difficult. And it was really weird because they were. My dad and my mom are like legends in the dance community. I mean, they can do no wrong. They know more than anything.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Nationwide or worldwide. Worldwide.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:16] They're renowned.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Your parents?

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] What are their names?

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:18] Buddy and Laurie Schwimmer.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:20] Yeah. And, you know, we would. You know, they would. Everyone thought they were the perfect couple amongst the dance community. No one would know anything until they would come home and there would be so many fights and so many differences of opinion, and it was terrible. And, you know, most of the time, I think a lot of the fights came from money, you know, and it's something that we just never had enough of. And that was partially why I always had this desire. I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to make a buttload of money. I'm going to pay for my parents to have, like, these awesome retirements. I'm going to have insurance. I'm going to have kids, and they can dance and they can live the dreams that I wanted to have as an adult. But I'm going to be a doctor. That was my idea. Or maybe I could be an anesthesiologist. Shoot up. Somebody go dance for a little bit. Wake them up. That was my little ignorant boy mentality, I think. But going back to prayer, there were times in my life, for instance, my dad hurt himself in his knees where my family would have these family prayers, but they would be these epic prayers that we would sit down and we would all pray like it would be. My mom would pray and then she would call out my name and I would pray and we would do these. Which is something that's kind of unheard of for the most part. Yet for some reason, we all did it in moments of really deep trial and where my family needed to stick together. And I remember those moments, I would cry.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] What did that mean to you guys?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:35] I remember those moments as the most humbling moments for my family. You know, in a dance community, we were like. People call us the Schwing dynasty because my dad was this big swing dancer. My grandfather was a Harvest Moon Ball winner, which is before swing dance competitions. Fred Astaire used to compete in that competition. And so we had a little legacy going on. Even it made nothing material wise, money wise, we had this legacy in these communities. And yet, going home to a humble house in a little town and I, I think a lot of the times my creativity stemmed from the fact we didn't have a lot of money. So my mom would take me thrift store hunting. All of my clothes are from thrift stores. And so I'm like, well, if I can't buy the new cool things, like I'm going to make these weird wacky disco outfits. I would wear like vintage angel flight, like bell bottoms or dress like an 80s dancer. Not like full on rhinestones or anything, but I would dress wacky and goofy. And I thought I was like the Jim Carrey of my junior high in high school half the time, really.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And prayer was a humbling thing for our family.

Benji Schwimmer [00:50:42] And I remember those moments as the most spiritual moments of my family where we really did rely on the divine to get us out of these tough times. And we always did. You know, there would always be that, that silver lining or that, that miracle that would happen somehow where all of a sudden my dad got a phone call a couple days later. Can you come to Europe and teach a couple lectures?

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Just like they say in church, Just like in sacrament meeting.

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:04] Yeah. I mean trial by faith prayer. James 1:5. Like it always happened for us.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] What was your relationship with Heavenly Father? Did you feel like you had one? What did you mean?

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:13] I had a very, I think for a boy my age, looking back and talking to their kids or asking friends now that are adults and comparing and contrasting. I believe my relationship with Heavenly Father was really strong. I mean super strong. To the point that I would feel promptings and I would feel answers to prayers and I would feel guilt when I would do bad things. And I thought that was the spirit telling me that things are wrong like that you need to do that better. Benji. I constantly felt those things. I always felt like I was never good enough. Always for him, for everything. But I always felt like he loved me and that I was going to get there. Always felt that. I always felt optimism amongst my guilt. I never felt like all hope was lost.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Did you turn to him in hard times?

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:54] Always. Always.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] You felt like he was there for you?

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:57] Always. I never felt like he wasn't there. Never in my life. Never. And so I always had a very deep rooted connection with the divine as a child. I always did. And I'm not the kind of kid that talks to himself. I don't do that. I didn't have the imaginary friends growing up. So it wasn't like I would have this like talking to Jesus sitting on a couch moment. It wasn't like that ever any Way, shape or form. But I would have great moments like that. And there were moments where I would feel maybe an inclination like I hope I don't go gay. And I would pray for Heavenly Father to give me strength at 12, you know, and yeah, I mean I would feel that back then. And so prayer has always been an integral part of my life. Even though I felt guilty that I felt like I should have done it more, but I always did it. Looking back, I was a pretty good prayer and I think I always had very well versed prayers. I was very open and honest in my prayers. Always amongst my family or within myself, always.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] What about scriptures?

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:56] Scriptures, I loved them. With my attention span growing up, it was very difficult to do it. It wasn't until I had a really awesome spiritual experience that I decided to take Gordon B. Hinckley's challenge to read the Book of Mormon in one year. And I did it.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] What age?

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:10] I was 16. And we had this thing. This is a really cool experience. And this actually changed my life. It's what made me decide to go on a mission. I always wanted to go on a mission, I think for the wrong reasons, to prove people wrong. At one point a lot of my cousins, people in church would always say, you know, either one. It was always, you're too talented of a dancer, you shouldn't go on a mission. Lord has given you great talents, Use them, don't deny them. You can't dance on a mission. I'm thinking, eh, I'm going to prove you wrong. I'm going to go on a mission just to make you crazy. I would do that. I would think that in my head all the time. Or a lot of people said, you know, you're too out of the box to be a good Mormon missionary. You shouldn't represent Jesus Christ the way that you act and behave. And I wasn't foul, I wasn't like that in any way, shape or form. It was just that I'm different. I was loud, I sang, I was boisterous, I would dance down the halls, you know, I would play with the kids. But we did this thing called mission for a day. And at the time we just moved to a new city called Redlands, California. And which is where I live now actually. And Redlands is a different kind of community. There's a Mormon temple there now built near. It's. It's east of LA, in between. East, it's east of LA, south of LA, north of San Diego. Okay, so California, LA, San Diego, Redland, somewhere in that crust and so we moved to Redland because Moreno Valley at the time started getting to be a little crime infested. And it's a really expensive town. It's this old school vibe, and everyone's fed with a silver spoon. A lot of rich people live there. I mean, really wealthy people live there. And I'm like, why are we moving to this place? You know, I don't mind living in Reno Valley, where we do okay for ourselves, theoretically. But my parents wanted to open a nice dance studio with paying clients, and they wanted to actually open up a really good place. And so we decided to finally move. We found a great deal through a student of ours that kind of basically gave us his house for next to nothing because he liked us and trade for dance lessons for life. So thank you. And we had a cool house. And I went to the school, and instead of being made fun of for being a dancer and weird people actually were okay with it. The arts are really supportive in the city, but I was actually brutally made fun of for being poor. Really bad. Luckily, I only went to school for six months. I was 15, sophomore year, high school school, and I finished. I was already two years ahead, and I just took an independent study thing for a couple of months to finish off all the credits, and I.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] You graduated high school at 15?

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:33] Yeah, 15 and a half.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] And there was a missionary thing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:38] Yes. So because of that, I had a lot more time to actually go to seminary, go to school, go to, go to church. And I hated my ward, though. The first day of my ward, I actually got into a fist fight.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] Whoa.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:50] With a boy that made fun of me because my church clothes were shabby. Oh, wow. And he had, like, the bow tie. He was like, my dad's a lawyer. I want to be a lawyer. One of those things. And I'm like, I'm gonna be anesthesiologist. I'm gonna overdose you the next time you come into my operating table. Anyways, so he, ironically, he and I became really, really close friends. I'm gonna have dinner with him sometime this week. And we became missionary companions of all things, too.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:13] Yeah. But anyway, so I. And I was invited to go to this mission for a day thing. And at the time, there was a tempting moment that I had. We discovered the Internet, and I found this place. There was a website where you could chat with other gay teens. And I thought that was really interesting, you know, And I thought, well, I don't have any friends in this new city. Right. No one at church. Definitely no one at Church. I need to find friends. And it was almost like this. Is anyone like me out there?

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Why gay teens? So by 15, you were wondering.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:47] I was definitely wondering, like, I would like girls, but I definitely like guys in the back of my mind. And it was slowly taking over the balance ratio of like, 80% girls, 20% boys. Pushing it aside to, ooh, we're tipping the scale a little bit now. But again, I was completely ignorant of it. Like, I would go in on a gay chat site, right? But I wouldn't identify myself as gay because, you know, they would ask, what are you questioning? Curious. Curious. That's it. I'm not gay.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] But you would say that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] And think you were thinking.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:20] Believe that.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:21] I thought I was gonna get married in the temple, but just chatting with people, and there was a boy that I'd met. He was my age. He lived 25 minutes away from me. And we actually decided that we were gonna go meet and I was going to take a bus. And I've never lied to my parents at the time, but I was going to lie to them and say, I'm going to a church activity. And ironically, there was this thing called Mission for a Day, right? And the Mission for a Day experience was you actually get a real missionary companion. You go to this fake MTC for a day, you meet the real mission president, he teaches you yada, yada, yada. It's really cool, actually. They gave you a really cheesy plastic name tag. I loved it. I thought it was really cool. All my cousins had just come, gotten back from their missions, and I actually liked the idea of going on a mission. But that night. Right. Well, the next day was the day I was going to go meet this boy. So I figured, dad, can you drop me off? But I'll get a ride there the second day, right? And that was, like, my master plan. And so I'd saved up some money from teaching lessons at my dance studio. I was going to buy this bus ticket and meet him there. And this kid's mother was really supportive. She was going to pick us up then and take us on a dinner date at, like, 15 or 16.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] LDS kid.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:27] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:28] I think he was Jewish.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:29] I don't remember. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] She was supportive of him being gay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:32] Totally. He was totally out. He worked for, like, a GLBTQ community center volunteer. He was. I think he was. Mike was 16, and I thought he was super cute at the time. You know, it was kind of weird, but, yeah, we were gonna do it. And So I was gonna go on this mission for a day thing that night and then the next day to this gay day rendezvous.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:51] So weird. So I ended up that night. I was really excited about it. I'm like, I'm going to play this role. I'm going to go to mission for a day. And at the very end, there was this invitation by the mission president. He's like, there is someone in this room. You know those really powerful talks that you get, mtc, it has it all the time. There is someone in this room that's not worthy to be here. And it was really powerful to me. And I thought, that's obviously me and every boy in that room probably felt it going through puberty at the time. It's true.

Preparing for and Entering the Mission Field

John Dehlin [00:59:19] Right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:19] We have laughing in the room right now. It's awesome. And I ended up feeling really impacted by that. Obviously, guilt was a big factor, obviously, in all of our lives growing up. And I.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] Did he, like, asked you to stand up or raise your hand or what?

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:33] No, no, no. He didn't say. He didn't say, stand up, raise your hand if you're guilty to be here, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] Oh, wow. So he used it as a technique for each person to think that that was them.

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:42] Yes. It was one of those not come see me in my office now. But rather the Lord feels like you are going to represent Jesus Christ tomorrow for a full day. And the missionaries have to live by a standard. So for a full day, you need to live by that standard, but tonight you need to repent and ask the Lord if you are worthy to serve a day mission. And it was, like, profound for me. Right? So I had this weird thing and I'm like, okay. That night I get home to my room and I decided to pray. Prayer again. And I'm kneeling on my knees, kneeling, and I'm praying in my little room. And I remember asking heavenly Father, do I. What do I do? I feel really pulled right now. I feel like no one accepts me at church. Being different. Never done anything bad since my baptism. I'm a good boy, you know, I love thee. I love the church. I love going to church. But I also really feel this awesome connection. And my parents, we would talk on the phone, this boy, and I like, oh, it's your friend Eric from school. I'm like, yeah, I'd hide, you know, in the closet, literally and figuratively, and talk to him and crush on him big time. You know, at the time, we didn't have cell phones really, so it was like family phone. And I Was like, walk around and, like, undo, like, the other phones in the house to make sure no one could hear my conversation. And my sister would do that as a little girl. She would be like, hey, tagging. You shut up, Lace. Anyways, so I prayed that night, and I didn't feel anything. So my decision was, I'm going to go meet this boy, bus ticket in hand, you know? And I remember that night I had this dream, right? I'm not going to go Lehigh. Well, actually, I'm going to go kind of Lehigh on people right now. But I had a major dream. But I haven't ever had a spiritual dream before. It's not something that I've ever had. Very often I would have random dreams. I would sleepwalk sometimes. But I never had, like, a dream that ever made sense. My dream is this. I literally am in my bed. My body, like, floats up and looks at it. Like, I'm out of body, you know? And I remember all of a sudden, like, scene two. I'm in this white, bright place, and there's a big golden gate in front of me. And I don't see faces, but I just see a long line of people, and they all had different kind of glowing energies around. This is going to sound really trippy, I promise. I'm not that crazy. But I do need to explain this, because it did influence me. I was in this line, and little by little, people were going, and I couldn't see what was going on. But then, little by little, I could see a big door. I saw three doors, a big one, and I couldn't see what was in it yet. But they would open every now and then, and people would walk to three different doors. They would cross a line, and then you would see one of these doors open for them, right? And I mean, talk about, like, you know, telestial, celestial, right? And I'm like, whoa, okay. And then finally, I got it, and I'm realizing that these people are being judged. I died somehow in my sleep. Who knows how? And I remember even thinking, like, did I have an aneurysm? Did what happened to me? Did someone kill me to get bit by a black widow? But I remember, like, seeing, like, okay, I'm dead. Like, this stinks, man. Like, wow. You know, maybe the Lord killed me before I could make a mistake, so maybe that's a good thing. And so I'm now at the point, like, I'm being dragged, like, my body's flying towards this line of judgment. And then I could see all three doors, and I could See what was behind them. And the big door to my left, I remember the. It was like a giant movie theater, and there was just thousands of people, and they were screaming and there was blood, and they were throwing popcorn at each other and fighting and, like, ripping their clothes off. And it was so violent and scary. Like, I was like, I don't want to go there, you know? And then there was this other place that was a bit farther off on the right hand side, and it was like this weird Zen Japanese temple place. Like, talking about weird imagery here. But people that would walk there would neither be, like, aggressive or sad or screaming, but they weren't ultimately happy. They were just, like, neutral. And then every once in a while, there would be a person that would walk through the farthest door, the center door, which was golden, and it was very far away. And every time it opened, it would illuminate the room that we were in. Right? So mind you, we didn't even have, like, a celestial telestial, terrestrial study. That day at the MTC thing was all about preaching the gospel and simple stuff. But I remember realizing, oh, I don't want to be judged right now. I don't think I'm good enough. And I crossed there, and all of a sudden I just felt that that door opened, and all of a sudden I saw these hands open up, and I saw the other door open, and I saw the other door open, and literally, I see two hands with holes in them doing this. Like, choose your own adventure, Benji. Right? So the next day, I wake up and I'm on the floor sweating. Like, what just happened to me? I didn't realize it. I woke up, like, in a ball, like, the fetal position, like a movie. Like, I'm there sweating, and I wake up and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Right? And so literally, like, I had five minutes to, like, get to, like, the rendezvous point to go on this mission for a day. And, like, I remember, like, our power went out in the house. My alarm clock didn't set off. My dad's car broke down. We need to use a neighbor's car. Like, all these things happen. I'm thinking, Satan's really trying to fight it here. Like, for the first time, I could see the Powers at hand playing. And I really associated that with gay devil, straight, heavenly. Like, that was very profoundly clear in my head from that moment on. And so I went on mission for a day. I had a fast and testimony, meaning, like, it was the most profoundly spiritual experience that I've ever had up until that point in my life, and I knew I was going to go on a mission. I started reading the Book of Mormon that very next day. Graduated seminary. I went to church every Sunday, paid my tithing after every dance competition or paycheck, and never failed up until that point. Very devout, had great callings, served everywhere I could. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] And you stood up your friend.

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:59] I did. He got so mad about it, too. He wouldn't talk to me for years until I was on a little TV show and he sent me a MySpace message. I'm thinking, don't out me. He's like, you know, your secret's safe with us, man. It's kind of funny.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] So, before we dive into the mission, any other youth or childhood experiences that you think were really important or formative for what we're going to talk about next, or do you think we got it?

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:24] I think we got it. I do just want to also, though, convey that my parents, however, not hyper like cookie cutter Mormon they were, were always very sensitive to things that were spiritual. They would always talk about good things. They would always mention the church. My parents would always defend the church to bitter end. When even gay people would say, you don't accept us there? Or when something would happen, they would always like this upheaving, like, I will defend honorary Christian soldier the heck out of this. Like, always, always, always. And so, from an early point on in my life, I had a sense of pride, a good sense, a healthy sense of pride about my faith and my heritage, of me being a member of the church. I really did. Even though we faltered a lot as a Sunday Mormon family, as some people called us. But I really loved it. And I just knew that there was a lot of hypocrites in church, and I didn't have to worry about that. I didn't go for their approval. I went there because I devoutly and divinely and truthfully loved it. I really, really loved it. Loved the experience, loved my classes, loved staying all three hours. I loved the sacrament. I love the sacrament more than anything like the sacrament. Prayers and rebaptizing myself every week was something that I felt I truly needed, being so imperfect.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] So you're a Mormon boy to the core.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:48] Card carrying.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] All right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] So your mission.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] Talk about some experiences or what it meant to you or how it. How it informed the rest of your

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:58] life to this day. My mission has been the most paramount, beautiful experience of my life to this day. And I can look back with the fondest, the most fondest of memories, the most difficult of memories. I Was challenged a lot in my health.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] What were you called?

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:17] I was called a Oaxaca, Mexico. M A M A O, as we call it in Spanish. And Oaxaca is a southern indigenous area of Mexico. Half the people speak Spanish, half are in one of 17 Indian dialects that are spoken there. So definite Mesoamerica for any of those farms, fanatics, Lamanites. Lamanite territory all the way.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Did the missionaries think of it as Lamanite territory?

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:38] Oh, we all did, yeah. I spoke a few of the dialects in particular, one called Mije. And I spoke it fairly well at the time. Now, don't even try it. But there was a couple of words that we would translate and compare to, like this city could be this city. And this in Hebrew means that. And this is kind of related to Hebrew. And we were like, we really reach for some things that were kind of interesting. And to this day, some of it's like, well, that does have some connective reason. And so I truthfully believe that I was at the time in the land of the Book of Mormon. All the way. All the way. And we knew it. We knew it.

Experiences and Spiritual Growth on His Mission

John Dehlin [01:09:14] So what did you love about your mission?

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:16] I loved the fact that I didn't walk in there with label or a stigma other than elder, you know, I think we were all really at an even playing field and we were in such a foreign land that was so different to everybody there. What I loved is it didn't matter how much money you made. Like, the church is really good about evening out that playing field and really understanding that we're all equals. I really love that. I really love that experience of true equality where it didn't matter what your background was or what your past was. You were there. You were purified by the mantle and the power of preaching. You would have forgiveness of your sins and reap salvation for not only others, but for yourself. All those things, I think played really important roles in my life. And I knew from that time, I was 16, that I was going to be on a mission. And I had a girl that was kind of waiting for me and this and that. Who Dear John, me, thank heavens. And he's wonderful. But. But there's a lot of things that I had. I was sick a lot on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] Did the people love you?

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] And did you love being a missionary?

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:21] I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Were you, like, obedient and hardworking?

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:24] Super obedient.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] Talk about that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:25] Super obedient. Super hard working. I was like a white handbook, like, pro at it. And I was so obedient. The part of My hair was perfect. Every day to this day, like, I shake my hair and it just goes that way. Like, I have to fight a part every now and then, sometimes just let it happen. But, you know, to make a long story short, to make a long two years short, I love the people. And I learned more from that group of humble people than I think they ever learned anything from me.

John Dehlin [01:10:54] Did they take to your personality, to your showmanship?

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:56] They loved it. They loved the color. They loved. They loved the fact Oaxaca is a very colorful place. That's where the Day of the Dead was created. So you see, like, all those crazy painted skulls. And they're so poor. And they would take care of the missionaries. We were like, even if you weren't lds, people loved us. And in particular, one city, we even had these gang members give us protection if we ever got beat up by drunk people. And I would. We used to get beat up all the time. Like, we used to get rocks thrown at us and a lot of cantinas, a lot of bars there, a lot of depression. So that does happen. But I loved every minute, even every punch that I got from somebody, every door slammed. I mean, it was wonderful. Did your mission president like you my mission president? And I, like, when I met him, he met me. I didn't speak any Spanish. He didn't speak any English. Right.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] He was a native.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:43] Native. And presidente, he, like, for some reason in that interview, like, I spoke great Spanish. I understood every word that he said. And even, like, I remember he giving me the gist. He's like, we're gonna send you to a really bad spot, but it's only because the Lord has a lot of faith in you. And I always felt like that was really cool if he said that to everyone. Maybe it was a motivating thing. I don't know. But I loved it. And I was always happy to wake up in the morning, get ready, sing the hymns, have devotional. I loved it probably because I didn't have that structure in my family life. We never had the family home evenings. And I would love to get the families together and have activities at the church. And, you know, membership was really falling bad, and retention was terrible back then. In that era, in that time, at least in that area, it was really bad for our mission. And we were one of the least successful Mexico missions. So it wasn't like we were baptizing hordes of people and just, you know,

John Dehlin [01:12:34] what would you average a month?

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:35] Well, me or what my mission did, because I was a pretty darn good Missionary. I don't honestly remember. I can name all the people probably still that I did because they always say you have to remember their names, not the numbers. So I still to this day will hold my mission honor code and not say the amount of numbers. But the mission would only maybe baptize 80amonth, whereas, like the three missions around us were baptizing 300. Okay, so it was pretty bad. It was also very religiously diverse place. But I did really, I was a fairly successful. Like my mission president called me Al Baotizador, the baptizer. Like, yeah, so I did pretty good in that. I was pretty successful elder. Almost all with the exception of a couple of like mean spirited elders that didn't even want to be there. Everyone loved me and I loved everyone.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] So you didn't. You felt accepted?

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:22] Completely.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] So that was different.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:24] Wacky as I was. Yeah. My mission president thought this kid's a little crazy. He used to say he's like, elder, you're crazy. But I love it.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] Just because your energy and passion and creativity.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:33] Yeah, he's like, as long as you're worthy, these are the characteristics that God gave you to serve his kingdom. And I truthfully believe that. And I believe that. I think that helped me maintain a sense of who I was even while on a mission. Because some people can go into robot mode on their missions. And I didn't. Although I didn't tell any of my companions that I ever danced unless something would happen. Like it would happen every now and then where, like, I would do something as an activity. At one point, I did a volunteer work where I choreographed for a high school a dance piece to the song Thriller. I got permission from my mission president to do it as a service project. I got recognized by the governor. He wrote me like this certificate of appreciation. It was pretty cool. They won like this dance competition statewide.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] You weren't known as a dancer by the missionaries?

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:19] No, until that happened. And then they started calling me like, there's a song in Spanish called Sergio Bailador, which means like Sergio the dancer or whatever. So they started calling me Elder Sergio.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] The missionaries.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:29] The missionaries, yeah. And a lot of the members too. But, you know, whatever. I didn't get care. And I used. I was goofy. Like I played with the kids, you know, and that identity was really cool. And I think because I didn't feel like I was an outsider because I felt like these were divine gifts and personalities and characteristics given by heavenly Father and my premortal spirit. And I felt like I owned up to it and it was really cool. And from there on out, I always did, I think finishing off, like, the mission was wonderful. There were some really bad, tumultuous moments where I nearly died. Two moments where I was next to death and had some really bad health issues. Really, really, really, really, really bad health issues. And I remember there's one point that I learned, and this is the very first time that I never truly believed in, that I lost my belief in infallible servitude and leadership in the church. My mission president, who I literally idolized, was a spiritual giant to me. At one point, he had made this mention. He's like, elder, you know, you've been zone leader for the longest time. You've done this. Like, I've done everything but become an assistant. And I didn't really want to be an assistant because they had to do a lot of paperwork. And I'm like, I want to be on the field, but to finish it, lo and behold.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] So you were a zone leader.

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:41] I was everything, yeah. They called me El conejo at one point because I trained more elders than anyone, which means rabbit. And I kept popping out kids. So I think I, like, think I trained eight kids, which is awesome. We call them kids hijos. So I trained a lot of missionaries because I was always animated, as they said. I was always up and I wasn't depressing, and I was never trunky or they called muerto dead on the mission in Spanish. I goofed around and I played around, but I was always very obedient. Always home by 9:30, always doing what was right. I remember I even had a couple of gay companions that would confess to me. I never said anything about my issues. Right. I can never do that. But they would talk to me and confess that they suffered from that. And they would say, I told them, it's something you just have to fight Elder. Like, this is a trial and it's not your divine self.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] You didn't disclose.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:31] Never. Wow. There was one boy that I told him my whole mission because he confessed to me. And looking back now, in retrospect, we didn't see each other the first day of getting into our mission. He was. We had to draw straws to see who would sleep on the balcony on a hammock because there wasn't enough beds to fit in the mission home. And so, of course, I just volunteered. And this kid drew, like, the short end of the straw. So we were staying up there, and I heard him weeping in his bed. I'm like, do you miss your family, Elder and he's like, no, he's like, I'm feeling a little guilty about something. He told me that he had. He was attracted to men. And he was the only person where I vaguely.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] I can't imagine admitting that to a missionary. No.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:09] Right, right, right. I mean, it was bad. And I remember at one point I ended up saying. I don't remember how I said it. I kind of tiptoed around it. I didn't deny it with him because I felt like I can't be dishonest. But with him, I almost was. Like, I wanted to be so empathetic and charitable to him. And I felt like I let him know. Like, I kind of said, you're not the only one that goes through this. And I kind of gave that look, like, I go through it. But I didn't. I didn't say it. And we hugged and we embraced and it was awesome. He went to bed and I didn't see him. For a huge part of my mission, there would be 18 hour bus rides to get to one area, one zone from the mission. And so I saw him right after I had a major surgery. And he had had the same major surgery at the same time. And I remember we both had to get checked by this special doctor, and we both had something we thought was cancer, which wasn't, thank heavens, but it was something pretty bad. It's really a gross story, so I won't get into that detail. But I remember he and I both had to be in front of this doctor and we both had to, like, kind of strip naked, which is really weird. And we both had to get checked, and it was really awkward because we both kind of knew about each other. And here we are, like, really weird. And we thought, why? We both had the same illness. Right? So weird. Which is very uncommon there, I guess, apparently. Why are we both having to get the same surgery? And we thought, thought, this is kind of ironic. Why are we both ones that are tempted with, like, the gay thing, right? Or same gender attraction as you all thought about at the time? And we always kind of thought that was kind of ironic and funny. Now he's married with kids. Now he's close. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] To a woman.

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:38] Yeah. He says he's more attracted to his wife. And I believe him. He's wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. And to this day, we still talk, and it's wonderful. But I remember there's a moment on my mission where we were literally neighboring ward boundaries and we were like a block away from each other. And, man, I love going on Splits with him. I love going on splits. And there was this moment, I would never admit it back then, but I was just like, drawn to him. So drawn to him the same way that I was drawn to boys at a young age, before adolescence ever hit. It was never sexualized, never romanticized either. Never, never. Like looking back, he's not even my type, but gosh, I just love and respect, Loved him, loved him dearly and wanted to spend every waking moment, wanted to write him letters on my mission, you know, and it was never mushy. It was just like I miss him. Like, I looked at the pictures that we developed of one another, like on our P day. Looking back now, I was crushing major, you know, and I connected with somebody, I think, on a deeper level too, which is rare, but I put that aside.

Navigating Same-Sex Attraction During the Mission

John Dehlin [01:19:46] So what did you tell these other elders that told you about their same sex attraction you were going to say?

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:50] I told them to fight.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] Wasn't there.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:53] It's not their natural state. Right. It's not them. And I was so far, like, beyond thinking that I would ever be gay, actively gay. And I thought I had a really good containment over it because the only feelings that I felt were bad or admiration. Never sexual. Right. So, you know, I was good and never, never broke the law of chastity in any way, shape or form on my mission. I mean, I was nephiac in that sense.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Do you mean no masturbation?

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:19] Yes, no masturbation. That's been brought up a couple of times on podcast. Never said masturbation on a public forum.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] Well, this is Mormon stories. We can't have an episode with most.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:28] Oh, all right. Yes. Never masturbated on my mission. I had companions that would confess the. That they did. You know, it was one of those things. And since I was always zone leader or district leader or trainer, like, I always got that from a lot of my companions. Not all of them, but some of them. And never did. Never an issue for me.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] Right, right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:46] I was pretty good about that. Lo and behold. I think that was one experience that was weird. But my mission president, when I got sick, said, you know, it's weird, Elder, I was going to call you. And at the time he said call, which I always thought they were assignments. I thought our calling was to be missionaries, to preach the.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] You were a geek. Look at that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:02] Yeah, I was a Mormon. I was a missionary nerd. I was John, by the way, of a new generation. Like, I was that missionary and. Yeah, but, you know, whatever. But he even said, you know, I was Going to call you to be my assistant. He alluded to that in an interview. He asked me the first question when I found out I was sick and I had to get a surgery. He said, what did you do? That's what he said. So he equated my being sick to unworthiness and never trusted me again on my mission. Treated me like garbage. Whoa. And I never did anything wrong. In that sense. We're all imperfect people. But I never, never did anything that would merit that treatment. And it really hurt because this is one of the first spiritual giants that I really connected with. He connected me. I'd write these long, elaborate letters to him, he to me, about doctrinal discussions and this and that. It was just so weird. It shattered me a little bit. And then I realized I became, like, at the second, the last quarter of my mission, like, this rebellious elder, where I was successful. I was breaking records, but President hated me. He sent me to the worst areas. And at that point, it kind of turned into that. I'm going to prove him wrong. And it was one of those moments where I learned deeply that our leaders are not perfect.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] But you weren't like this disobedient?

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:27] No, not at all. No, not at all. In fact, I worked harder.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Just personality clash.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:32] Yeah. I lost faith in that leadership. But I believe that the Lord is my true leader in that moment, so it didn't really matter.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] You weren't mad that you were an assistant?

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:41] No, I could care less. I kind of theoretically did because I healed in a different mission for over a month after the surgics had a bad accident in the hospital, and so I kind of had to work in the office. And I gave meetings to the new incoming missionaries two or three times. I gave talks and firesides there while I was healing in Mexico City. So I theoretically was. And they called me their third assistant. So I thought that was kind of ironic. And I'm like, hey, it's prophecy come true.

John Dehlin [01:23:06] Any big spiritual experiences on your mission or.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:08] Huge. I had big spiritual experience. I did.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] Did you feel like you knew the church was true?

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:15] Yes. That was something I've heard you talk about.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Talk about your testimony at that time.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:19] My testimony was solid, rock solid. I mean, it was. I believed in everything. Nothing that I didn't doubt. Nothing. I believed in the veracity of the Book of Mormon. I believe that I was standing on Book of Mormon soil. I believe I was living in Alma 47 or 44, where it talks about Hermel or Hare Mounts in English, which is the city that I Thought was called Tehuantepec, which is where I served. So hare ravenous beast, mountainous plain field. I lived in a place called Tehuantepec. The Tewas mean ravenous beasts. In our dialect, Tepec means mountainous range. Yet it was flat because 3rd Nephi 11 the fields changed, mountains became flat. I mean, I was on it River Cybus. There was no water there because it changed at 30 Nephi Leven. Like I was pinning all of that stuff together. Like, I may be a dancer and count to eight, but I was a pretty damn smart missionary, you know, or at least doctrinally. I was really good at being an apologist, theoretically at that time. Everything that was brought up to me, any doctrine discussed. I even had a morning talk show, my last area of my mission. The bishop at the time did this morning talk show and he let me weekly have a discussion with me, a Pentecostal, a leader and a Catholic, the leader of the Catholic Seminary Institute. Seminary, like teaching the priests there, the future priests and deacons and whatnot, and even nuns and monks in all of southern Mexico. And we would have a doctrinal discussion once a week. I have the tapes. I don't have them anymore, but my Spanish was pretty good at that time. So people would like. It was great. We were really welcomed in this area. And I think, think at one point we gave over 100. My last week we gave over 100 discussions or lessons. They were called lessons. Now at that point, I was the first companionship in Mexico to use the preach my gospel book. So, you know, I was a pretty decorated elder and true believer. Oh, true blue. True blue.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] All right. So anything else about the mission before we. Was it hard to not dance?

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:22] I danced.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] Was it hard to not compete or to train or.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:27] No, because I had the.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] How did you dance?

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:29] Well, I mean, like every morning you wake if you have 30 minutes of physical activity. So I do like push ups.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Like flash dancing,

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:38] but listening to like efy, you know, like completely. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] Like you would dance for 30 minutes every morning?

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:46] No, I would like stretch a little bit, you know, and I would even do like push ups, but I would do like. I can't do it obviously. Here, pull back. Could I really quick.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] Okay, pull it back.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:56] I promise I won't break your microphone, dude, but I would do these things.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] You audio listeners are gonna have to switch to the video.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:01] Yeah, I'll explain what I'm doing. How about that? I go into a push up position, but I go into the splits as well. So I would be doing our warmups in our exercises, but I would be sweating, splitting, and dancing at the same time and pointing my toes. We would play soccer on our P days, right? Or court football, but, like, I'd be running. And I was a good soccer player. I played soccer 11 years, right? But I would be, like, leaping and, like, doing back flips. And I would have my companions and teach them gymnastics. And we do, like, all sorts of crazy lifts and tricks that I do with my swing dance partners. And then I would teach, like, the sister missionaries how to do it so they would, like, help them out. There'd always be like one big sister missionary and one little one, so it always worked. But yeah, I mean, I had dance in that element, you know, and it was fun. It was a lot of fun. So I did that. There was traditional, typical, like we called it the Galagetza there. There was like typical dances there. And so sometimes for activities, the missionaries, we'd come over and, you know, bring non members and investigators to learn those dances and they'd say, elder, come and do it. And I'm like, I can't go out there and take a dance lesson. Right? So we'd be helping people. But I had a good memory. I could pick up on the steps really quickly. So I'd look at it for two seconds and I'd do it. You know, it was simple stuff, but so I had that element. I didn't miss competing at all because I was never very competitive. I never wanted to be, but I loved performing.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] You were performing your whole mission?

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:22] My whole mission. But I never felt. See, when I say performance, I don't feel like it means putting on a face. I truthfully, joyously bringing people joy, loved my mission. I felt like I was serving them, being me. And I think it's a very depressing place to live, economically speaking, culturally, it was very rich and very rich. Way richer than where we live now. But I felt like maybe just to brighten somebody's day, you know, to put a smile on someone's face that doesn't have any teeth because they can't afford dental work, like that kind of thing. And more than anything, my mission, even now working with the people and serving them was still to this day, the most amazing experience. And I think I gained a stronger testimony of the church and a knowledge of the doctrine and the gospel more than anything. I think I even said this on my homecoming talk. I learned what charity was, and I learned about love and what we really need in life and what we really don't need in life. I slept in hammocks and lived in mud huts and ate iguana and bugs. It was like total hakuna matata status for two years. And I nearly died a couple times. And I didn't care. The people had nothing, and they would take care of me before I even had a chance to succor their needs. And I love them so much. And, yeah, I think it inspired me to realize there's so much more to life than a dance competition. There's so much more to life than anything. Because loving one another and being nice to people and half the friends that I made weren't even members. Never accepted the gospel, you know, Pretty strong Catholic regimen down there. But I love them nonetheless. And I remember their faces and I remember how their hands felt when we shook their hands. And yeah. Gosh. So awesome. Such a great experience. The best. So, yeah.

Coming Home and Life After the Mission

John Dehlin [01:29:26] Didn't want to come home.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:27] Didn't. No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:29:29] Didn't want to come home.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:30] No. In fact, I extended my mission as far as my visa would allow me because I was sick for a time. I actually got permission from the government to do it. So I stayed a little longer, which my parents hated. They wanted me home. I think also maybe subconsciously looking back at it now, that might have been something, but it wasn't the active intention or thought. My parents, the day that I went on my mission, they had promised that they would get their acts together, go full out in the church, and by the time I would get home, within a week, we'd be sealed as a family. And that's something I looked very forward to. Maybe in the back of my mind, I was hoping that in the event that I turn out to be gay or something, that they could save me. You know, I always remember those talks about Joseph saying, even if Emma went to hell, you know, I be worthy enough or big enough to go down there, snatch her, and bring her to the celestial kingdom with me. And, you know, I thought that. I thought about that when a child wanders. I read that book and I thought about that sometimes, too. Or for my other friends as well. And so there was. At one point, I got the letters of, like, family pictures stopped coming, and I knew something was wrong. And I was kind of. My parents didn't want to say anything because they wanted to let me focus on the mission, which was great, but I worried about them and I knew that things were bad. And the only time I got to hear about this was the day me and my mission president got in that discussion where he lost all faith in me and thought I was a heathen. And I'm on my mission. I just had that accident at the hospital, and I'm sitting here and I found out I was kind of Dear John at the time that same day. And like, all just, like the world went to poop. Completely, utterly. And I had, like. I had, like, six families, like, with their goal to be baptized that week. And they all dropped because I wasn't there. And it was bad. It was a bad day.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] And you found out about your.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:16] And I found out my. Through my sister, that my parents were separated. Dad was living elsewhere. They haven't gone to church in over a year.

John Dehlin [01:31:25] And you knew that when you got home, there would be no sealing.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:29] Yeah. And I felt like, okay, I need to work even that harder now because I need to reap the benefits. I won't even take the blessings for myself. I'll fend for myself, but I will work harder. I want my parents to be okay and sealed. I mean, that was one of the goals. I'm going to come back just this beacon of spirituality and power and get my folks to shapen up. Gosh, what an awful perspective to have. I think, you know, my parents are awesome. They're the coolest people ever, and they're the coolest divorced people ever. We have a family dinner once a week, just us four. My little sister, myself.

John Dehlin [01:32:03] Oh, it's your parents.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:04] Yeah. Awesome.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@saber-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by Studio Case dot com. Thanks for listening.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:23] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're away.

Part Two Introduction and Post-Mission Life

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 351

John Dehlin [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org so what happened when you did come home?

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:31] Well, fell into deep depression. It was hard being alone, and my parents were helpless to save them. I think I tried very hard. But you, anyways, you already. You had that mantle. You had that idea that you're protected by Concord or huge courses of angels and legions of angels and chariots behind you and Charim with flaming swords and all these things. And you come home and you're just like, armor is off and you're nothing. And you go back to a singles ward in a very highly populated Mormon community and you're nobody, which is cool. I guess you're humbled.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] It was in Redlands.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:07] In Redlands, yeah. So shortly thereafter, I got really depressed. I lost my girl. I realized that at the time I didn't want to date. I liked the idea of it, but I thought that the girl that I was kind of hoping to marry after I got home was gonna be the one. Like, I thought that was my ticket in, you know, it was easy. It was divine. We fell for each other. From Utah, actually. Not too far from here, actually. And I just felt like I don't know what I want to do. Obviously, my parents are getting divorced, so I don't want to dance because I don't want to put my family through the same traumas. That was one of the big elements there. So, I mean, I taught classes to just make a little money here and there to save up, but I instantly signed up for college classes and I wanted to go to byu. I could have probably gotten a full ride there, a few other places through dance alone, and even my academics, but I knew I had to be near my family to try and save them. So I went to a commuter college and taking full units and trying to do really good there, but teaching as well. And I just got so depressed. I think the combination of not really wanting to do what I wanted to do, one and losing that family unit, and when the day when they mentioned the word divorce and my mom gave me a hug, I just felt like, wow, the chains are broke. We're never going to be sealed. We are lost. It was tough. It was really tough on me, but I didn't think less of my Parents. I knew that it had to happen. I just thought, there's more responsibility on me now. Even more. A lot.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] I had the same experience.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:49] Really insurmountable.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] I just feel like I'm disconnected from that eternal family.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:54] Yeah. Now I have to jump generations to be connected. I was really heavy into the temple. Like, I went all the time. I think when I say I went almost 90 times before I went on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:07] I had to wait a little while for my visa, so I had time to go a lot. Did double sessions. Went to San Diego, Louisiana, on vacations, on dance competitions. Find the closest temple and go. I loved it. And then afterwards, I did the same. And so it wasn't until my cousin Heidi, or, sorry, my sister Lacey, she saw that I was just blue, and she's like, you are a mess.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Sleeping.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:28] Just sleeping all day. Just like £130. Just, you know, the leather face that I'd gained from being tan in Mexico had gone. Like, I was pasty and gross. And she's like, you're miserable. Let's get your feet wet. You're still sounding like a Mexican. Like, I saw this accent when I spoke. It was terrible. She's like, you need to get out of it. My sister had left the church already. She was only 15 at the time.

John Dehlin [00:03:52] Do you know why?

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:52] Yeah. She got made fun of brutally for being artistic again. And ironically, I think this is super funny, and she can hear this, and if she hears it, she deserves it. But she was made fun of a girl that said, my sister was a whore and a heathen because she wore a lot of makeup and she wore crazy weird outfits that she would make because we were poor. She was creative. And I know it's going to be really loud on the podcast when I just said poor. I apologize, viewers and listeners, but she said this. But this girl ended up getting kicked out of BYU for being a lesbian, changed her name, and is now living as a man. So I guess she had some angst that she was building up and was voicing it on my very beautiful and effeminate sister. Maybe so. Anyways, Karma put. Anyways, she. She left because of that. She didn't believe in it ever. Never really had a testimony, never felt like it was true. She could care less. That was the thing. She just wasn't religious in her nature. But she was always sensitive with me being lds. She was always so good with it. Like, if I would mention things or mention a story about my mission. She loved hearing stories about my mission. She loved looking at pictures about It. My parents picked me up for a week. We toured my mission and visited all my wards. So we had that. That bond with my mission. Not necessarily the Mormonism side, but my missionary work, my two years where we sacrificed everything. And I think I missed my sister more than anyone while I was on my mission. We were really connected the last few years before I left. And I felt like I needed to be with her, to defend her and set a good example, because I already saw, like, she was not really buying any of this. And I'm like, no, buy it.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] I should tell the listeners that Lacey competed in the third season of so youo Think youk Can Dance. And so for those of us who followed so youo Think youk Can Dance, Lacey Story followed Benji's. And so to hear about their relationship is really cool. Go back and watch YouTube videos of Lacey dancing and Benji, and you'll connect to why I'm so interested in hearing Lacey.

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:45] Yeah. And she was the first person I ever taught. She was my first student. So it was kind of cool to be like, big brother Benji and teach her. And, you know, look at her now. She's like a megastar and has, like 190,000 followers on Twitter right now. Yeah, she's on Dancing with the Stars. She's a pro. So she on one of the top rated TV shows of all time.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] I can't watch that show because it's just not as good.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:05] I can't watch any of those shows.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:07] I'm kidding. You're not boosting my ego. I don't associate with that other show either anymore. Grateful for it.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] No. But so Lacy's a bit. Lacy's big now.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:16] She's a megastar.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Okay, okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:17] Yeah, she's up there, and I'm so proud of her. And what's funny is, because I was this, you know, this Mormon boy, people just associate her as being this Mormon girl. She's not. I mean, she's always had tattoos showing and this and that and wears it. Very honest girl. And I adore her for it and her candor. But going back to that idea, when I was just depressed, she knocked on my door one time and she's like, benji. Like, I lived in this little out apartment, like, this little guest house at the time. She's like, benji, she's like, wake up. What? I'm like, you know, there's a small competition in two weeks, and normally, like, it takes me, like, six, eight weeks to plan for, like, a big routine. She's like, we've never danced together. This routine, this competition. I'm allowed to, like, dance as an adult. Let's do routine together. You're depressed. Let's dance. Dance your a off. Like, do it. And I'm like, all right, let's do it. So she dragged me to the dance floor and we rehearsed for a couple hours, put a little routine together, and we ended up winning, like, the world championships, actually, two weeks later, which is kind of cool. And so I got that bug again to kind of dance and maybe like, well, I'll ride this out a little bit, save my money, pay for med school. That was still in the back of my mind. So I'm like, alright, I'll do this. And then I ended up competing with my cousin Heidi. We ended up winning that. That U.S. open title again. We reclaimed our title. And it was big for us. And I remember I was so.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] And for the listeners, Heidi competed with Benji on so you think you can dance in season two.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:39] She was a finalist.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] She was a finalist.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] So it was kind of Benji and Heidi.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Grew up together.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Lds.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:45] Oh, Heidi is such a great Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So both lds. It was kind of epic for Mormons. Super epic to see these Mormons become finalists.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:53] We were the young Osmonds of our brief reality generation. People called us that. They called us the dancing Osmonds.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Yeah. And it was awesome. They were both fabulous to watch dance.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:02] She's awesome. And she's pregnant, by the way. I'm so happy for her. She's gonna have a little baby. It's crazy. She's still this big around, too, which is funny. Anyway, so finishing that all off with my sister, we danced and I danced with my cousin Heidi. We reclaimed her title. I remember winning this competition, and it's actually my most viewed video on YouTube. You'll even see it. The moment that. I'm so excited. We were crying after we finished the dance. It was just like, wow, we did it. We came back. We never thought this would have happened. Awesome. And then I remember taking that bow, and there's this moment where my head drops and I thought to myself, now what? Like, I've locked myself in a dance room for six months. I haven't focused on dating. I go to church, love my family. Dating freaked me out. Seriously, dating freaked me out. I would pretend a lot, but I hated it, hated the idea. It made me feel very awkward. And I just felt like, oh, man, what am I doing? You know, what do I do with this? And so I literally thought, okay, now what? Now that this ball has already gotten rolled and I don't need to dedicate myself nine hours a day doing a routine that I already had that's good for a year. We tore that routine for a year. What focus do I do? And so then I realized I had, like, everything kind of hit me. The whole, like, you might be gay Benji. Like, you gotta figure this out.

Rediscovering Dance as a Spiritual Gift

John Dehlin [00:09:32] What was the connection?

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:33] I think it was for you, for me, losing that girl on my mission. I felt like she was my ticket in. And losing ticket to what?

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Heterosexuality?

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:44] To get to finish the next mission, as your mission president always says, to get married and seal in the temple, have a family, start the eternal process, make it to the celestial kingdom, the highest level. The celestial kingdom. We shoot for excellence in the Mormon Church. It's true. Right, Right. We don't glorify the whole celestial kingdom. We glorify the highest. We glorify the highest celestial part of the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] And dancers are about excellence. Right? I mean, you were about excellence.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:10] IP excellence, John. I'm just kidding. No, but yes. I mean, yes, we are always about excelling and getting better. And that's my M.O.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] always.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:21] I'm not the most talented dancer. I'm one of the most successful ones in this world. Yeah. The center of the century. I really am. My accolades in the years and my consistency have been as a competitive dancer have been very high. And not from talent alone. Maybe part of that. Maybe genetics for my family, because they're awesome. All of my family members are way more talented than I am. I have a good brain for a very creative, but in the physical, kinetic. I'm not built for a dancer's body. I'm not kinetically active in that way, but I am brutally obsessive about how I work. I work harder than anyone, and because of that, I'm better than everyone.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] Is there a connection between that and Mormonism at all? Like, did Mormonism form your.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:04] Totally, totally Brigham Young. I mean, like, back in the day of the church, you know, we've always had. We've always heard about, you know, the Pilgrims dancing and the pioneers. Sorry, dancing. And, you know, they would court that way. People would fall in love on the dance floor. And it was a good thing. BYU's always had an amazing ballroom dance company in the department, and it used to make more money than the football department. Like, all of those things have been so ingrained and deep in the core of Utah Mormonism. There are more dance studios going down the 15 North Freeway freeway here between Provo Utah and Salt Lake City than I think I've ever seen in my whole life, than in New York City, than in Los Angeles combined with go figure. We push our talents because we also are very like I did at the time. We all believe that God has given us talents and abilities, and it is a slap in his face to not develop them to the best of our abilities.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Light on a hill, Bam.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:57] Do it. So if that's my shtick, I will make that shtick as best as possible.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] Did you connect it to the gifts and the doctrine and covenants, and this is your gift?

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:08] No, because I was very doctrinally, I was fairly. For a dancer again, for a kid who graduated high school at 15, didn't have a college experience, and counts to eight for a living, I was pretty doctrinally savvy, I think. And I was very into reading deep doctrine. I thought about Adam God theory all the time. I marveled, how could that be? I read discourses and tried to find whatever I could online. At the time, it wasn't as vast as we have now, but I remember just distinguishing the differences between my spiritual gifts. As in, like, you're a child of God. These are your gifts that you can help other children. And then there are talents that we're blessed with that are earthly talents. And I always believed my dancing and my creativity are more earthly talents, even though later on down the road, even as an active member of the church, I kind of blended that belief a little bit more together. Because my dancing, I felt a lot of those keys, not those keys, those gifts had been engaged through those mediums of art keys.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] You really thought this through, man?

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:06] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Okay, so you had this aha moment where you win a competition with Heidi and you realize that dancing might be

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:14] your calling, but nevertheless, how? Like, I don't have anything else to focus. Like, dancing's normal for me now. It's back into my body, my blood. Now I have to think about the girl, the wife, right? Yeah. And so it freaked me out. I started getting. I started hyperventilating all the time, started getting panic attacks. I got brutally depressed. I always say, I just miss my mission. I just miss my mission. But really, it's like, I'm scared of this next mission. I'm brutally scared of it. Luckily, shortly thereafter, I was at a dance competition sitting in my room. I just won the competition, and I'm bummed as can be. I mean, I am depressed. And everyone's like, you just won a great comp Benji. What's going on? And a good friend of mine's like, dude, snap out of it. What's up with you? And I'm like, you know, it just. There's gotta be something more. And he's like, hey, have you seen this, by the way? And he opens up his laptop and he plays a clip from season one, so youo Think youk Can Dance. In fact, it was some sort of stream or video of it of like the last episode of when Season one winner won. And I watched some of the dancing on it and I looked at this, this video and I'm like, what is this? Like, even five years ago, before the mission, like, no dance TV shows, not since, like, Gong Show. Where did anyone dance? You know, as a little boy, I used to watch episodes of that, you know, on.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] What about Solid Gold? Did you ever see Solid Gold?

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:38] My D was a Solid Gold dancer, thank you very much. Yeah, and my mom danced on Dance Fever. She danced on Gong Show. She won Gong Show. Yeah. I danced on Regis and Kathie Lee as a little boy. Like, we did some of those things. But my era, my generation, it was never cool. It was only maybe some hip hop on rap music videos. And that was about it. And that was its audience. So I was made fun of and this and that.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] There was breakdancing, but that came after. That came before me. Breaking was before me.

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:07] Yeah, breaking was before me. The poppers, lockers, all that. Yeah, that was wonderful. I still watch those movies all the time. But anything modern on tv, like Star Search was canceled. Like everything was canceled. I literally come home from those two year gaps and there's four dance TV shows that are successful. And I didn't watch TV at the time because I was still like, I can't watch TV or movies because I'm still a good Mormon and I want to live by the white handbook still. I was that kind of guy, dude. The worst, right? With earrings anyways and tattoos. But yeah, I was that kid. And it wasn't for show. That's what I believed I needed to do. I didn't watch rated R movies, didn't do anything. And I. So anyways, he shows me this video of that season of so youo Think youk Can Dance. And I'm like, ugh. And literally just that overachiever, that goal driven. I clinged onto something rather than having to date a girl. I'm like, I'm gonna win this show.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Okay, so you. You win this competition with Heidi.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] You maybe start getting the sense that dance might be a big part of Your future.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] And yet you're feeling. You're having panic attacks about the prospect of dating women.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Yet you're uber Mormon, righteous, living by

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:17] the white Bible completely. And it got to a point that maybe I should seek help. And so that was the first time I actually spoke to a bishop. Kind of told him I was kind of dealing with it.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] What did you say?

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:27] I said, I might be struggling with some issues with same gender attraction. Immediately, you can tell he kind of gets weird about it. And I said, I've never done anything. I'm a good boy. But I know that maybe there's that trial that I'm going to be facing. And so he recommended that I go to LDS Family Social Services. I think I went to one therapy session, and it was already stuff that I'd already seen, already read about online. Like, it really wasn't helpful. The guy that helped me, bless his heart, was so gay. I mean, when he walked in, he was just an obvious gay. And here he is, he's like, me and my wife. And I'm like, I don't know if I identify with you. I don't know if I can do this. And it kind of more freaked me out than anything.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] He seemed more effeminate than you thought of yourself. Is that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:08] Yeah, completely. I don't find myself to be very effeminate. I've never had that issue. I know a lot of guys. What is it not? Narth, there's this one other thing. I think it's called mans. And it's like, it talked about trying to be back in touch with your inner man, your masculinity. Let's play sports and hug each other like bros. And never had that issue. Like, even I'm a dancer, I consider myself of the most masculine kind. And it's never been. My masculinity has never been in question for me. Never. I'll do creative, funny things. I'll dress in drag. I'll do this and that. But I don't equate that to my natural air about me or the way I act.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] You feel like a dude?

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:50] Yeah, totally. I'm the biggest Laker fan on planet Earth. Like, and I go to the ball games and I cuss and I throw peanuts at people. Like, it's. It's one of those things. Like, that's how I am.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] So.

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:00] No, I've never felt that way ever. Okay, Never. And he was all about that. So the therapist that was there, he

John Dehlin [00:18:09] was discovering your manhood, and you're like, I'm plenty Manly?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:13] Yeah. And I always thought it was really gay to say that. Like, let's find your man. And I'm like, that sounds pornographic. Like, let's not say it in that way. I'll make you feel like a man. I'm like, okay, yeah you will. But it was just weird. And so I got turned off by that and I just decided to not think about it and to literally sell my car, go to school every other day and train. So you think you can dance?

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Really?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] So how long did you train?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:43] I didn't really train a lot. All I did was this is. I knew that there's all sorts of different styles and here I am like a partner dancer. That's what I do. And I used to freestyle as a kid. I was like a little wannabe Michael Jackson. But these people, I mean, trained every day in front of a ballet bar or they're fantastic. And I'm just like a little swing dancer that did some ballroom. I felt really out of my element. So I decided to go to LA and take. I remember I walked in with jeans and a T shirt. I didn't even know how to dress for it. And I walked in and I'm like, I want to take the hardest dance

John Dehlin [00:19:12] class you have here in an LA studio.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:15] At the LA studio, it's one of. There's like three big studios here. But this is like the one that the winner used to train at from the first season.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] What's it called?

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:22] It's called the Edge. Okay, Edge, Millennium and Demi Reynolds.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] It's expensive, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:27] 16 bucks a class, I think for like an hour and a half. Yeah, but if you're taking five classes a day and you're driving an hour and a half back and forth every day or two hours in traffic, right? You know, and you're not working as you're going to school, right? It's expensive. So I sold my car, I bought a really crappy beat up car. It was awesome. And. And I wanted to do it. I just wanted to go for it. And I, for some reason in the back of my head ignorantly, I just knew I was going to win this show. Knew it. It wasn't even an issue. I remember I walked in and they're like, well, have you ever taken a Jazz 4 class before? Which is like the highest class they have there. And I'm like, no, never have. We have to get special permission from the teacher. And I walked in in jeans and this girl's like, you're helpless. I'm like, can I please take this class. She's like, oh, what? Let me guess. You want to be on so youo Think youk Can Dance because everyone and their mother decided to do it the next year, right? And her. I'm like. I said, actually, with all due respect, no. And she went, oh. I'm like. I said, I want to win so you think you can dance? And she just laughed at me. She's like, you got some cajones, man. All right, come on in. She's like, but guess what? I'm not going to be nice to you. And I'm like. I said, I wouldn't have any other way. And she mutilated me. I mean, we would do like warm ups across the floor, the warm up alone. I'm like, oh, the class is over. No, that was just five minutes, Benji. And I'm like, oh, man, here we go. Because I was again, I was this skinny, like 130 pound twerpy guy that had a tapeworm from Mexico that couldn't gain weight.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] So this was jazz.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:55] Jazz. And then I took hip hop and

John Dehlin [00:20:57] contemporary over how many month period?

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:00] Two.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Over two months?

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:01] Yeah. It wasn't very long.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Crash courses in advanced forms of.

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:07] Yeah, well, obviously I didn't because they don't teach how to do it. They just say, move here, move it, move it now, do it, group one. And I'm like, literally like the kid that's five beats behind. And my feet are like this. And I'm awkward. But I wanted this. I wanted the mental thing. I knew that the experience. I wasn't gonna be able to compete against dancers that have been doing this since they were 12 or 2, rather. They start at 2 and they go all the way up. Most These kids are 18, 19, 20 years old. I don't have that luxury. But I'm a kick butt partner and I can do anything in that realm. Right. And I got good personality. But I was thinking, what I do for a solo, I'll just do partner dancing without a partner. Okay. So I figured that out. But all I needed to do was like how. I wanted to see how good these people were. I wanted to see where I need to get my brain in order to process where these people are at.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] So this is metacognitive piece of completely getting the lay of the land. Yeah, right. Of like understanding the realm.

Auditioning for So You Think You Can Dance

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:01] Yes. I walked around and I studied and tasted everything to know.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] So what was jazz?

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:07] It was jazz, contemporary, modern, hip hop, jazz, funk, which is a mixture between hip hop and jazz. Well, I can't really use the I can't use the word. But there's like another version where it's like. It's called Zaza. We'll just call it that. Where it's like. It's basically girl hip hop. Or like gay hip hop. Where it's like really effeminate. But I figured, you know what? I've seen everything on that show. I'm gonna take it and I'm gonna do good. And if not, I will try. And I remember the next day that same teacher was having a class and Lord, she looked at me. I came in there with sweatpants and a tank top that next day, right? I even took the garments off, which is a little weird for me to. I used to practice on my garments, which I called my bitch. She was like, it's okay, don't worry about it. Swimmers don't wear them. So I'm like, all right. But I came in there and I was like, ready. And she looked at me, she's like, you're back for some more punishment. She called me swing boy. I won't name this, but she turns out to be one of the top choreographers on so youo Think youk Can Dance. And I didn't know who she was. Oh, yeah. So because I didn't watch the season,

John Dehlin [00:23:05] you don't want to name her because it's just uncool.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:07] It's just whatever. Yeah, she's great. She's very talented. That's all I'll say.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] All right, that's cool.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:11] And she told me and everyone would know her if you. I even mentioned her initials. So it's fine. But she was so mean to me. But cool. Mean, though. Like, she would literally run up to me and, like break fingers and, you know, morph me in different ways. And I'm like, alright, cool. And I remember, like the day before the auditions, two months later, fast forward this. Now, mind you, I was probably still absolutely terrible, terrible. But at the very end of class, she picks her five or six top dances and she makes them all dance together, improvise, and then dance their peace. Like the routine that you learned for that day. And she called me as one of the people which touched me, you know, like, gave me this little boost of like, maybe I'm getting a little better, you know, maybe I've learned something. And she was really sweet upon doing that. And it kind of gave me this little. Probably a false sense of confidence, but something that really helped me at least ignorantly get my foot through the door. And the next day, that same night, me and My best friend Ricky, he's a breakdancer. We decided to audition the same day. And I slept in a sleeping bag. Downtown LA bums were peeing on us like, it was so bad. And we woke up the next day. I was like the 10th person in line and audition that very day.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] What's that? What's that like auditioning for so youo Think youk Can Dance? What's it like?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:30] Well, for people that don't know the show, it's American Idol on dance. That's. That's all it is. It's the exact same premise for the most part, except however rigorous it is to sing along high note. It's a lot more rigorous to physically do every genre there is. You can't even put your spin on it because you're doing someone else's work.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] But when you're auditioning, you don't do all the genres, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:52] You do. You audition in all the. They don't show half the audition process.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Oh, really?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] So I just get up on stage for three minutes and dance.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:58] No. And in fact, the first time. Okay, now the first person auditioning and they do this whole, like, thing.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] This is Nigel, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:02] Yeah. Or whomever. Yeah, I just do a British accent. It's one of them. But you go up there and you've already done, like, three rounds of auditioning before you get up to that point.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Really?

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:10] They already know about you. They've already gone to your house. They feel.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] So when they put the goofy dancers on, they're doing that for show.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:16] No, here's the thing. They'll give you, like, you dance in front of a casting director in, like, this basement, and there's a little table and they put 10 dancers on the floor at a time and they're like, impress us. They play a song and here I am by myself and my partner hadn't showed up yet because, you know, during that round, you can dance with a partner. And I'm thinking, oh, crud. So I'm like doing ballroom by myself and doing whatever I could. And I remember at one point, the guy that was casting, he didn't even look at me. I mean, he saw that I was different. He saw that I had a tie on rather than, like jazz clothes and stuff like this. And didn't even look. I mean, he was very, like, very just gay and like, I don't want to look at this. Right. My hair was messy. I was a nerd, you know, And I was a goofy Mormon nerd. That's what I was. And I'm dancing around in a corner, getting pushed away by all these beautiful dancers that are just wonderful and eloquently moving and fluid and musically perfect. And here I am trying to survive and keep up. So finally at one point, right before the very end, I knew he was not marking me down and I spun and I did like this slide on my foot right towards him and I slammed the table right in front of the thing and I grabbed the pen and I write my number in hand. His casting list. And I go back and I smile at him and he looks at me like that mother effer like he was so mad, but he put me through because of it.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Because he, like, you may have been out that. That very first.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:37] I knew I was.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] So you went for it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:39] I went for it. I like, this is. I do not want to go back to my singles award and have to worry about getting in this me market of dating again. Like, I want to go to an LA ward. I want to be focused on my career and doing that. And so, yeah, he sent me through and then a couple days later, then you go on that stage, but you wear the same clothes, they keep your hair the same way. They're very good about that. It's an interesting process.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Okay. And you performed a swing dance?

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:07] I did with my current professional partner, Tori. She was 14 at the time.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Oh, wow.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:11] Yeah, kind of cool. She's 13 at the time, actually. And so I couldn't dance with Lacy because Lacy was gone on some sort

John Dehlin [00:27:17] of trip and Heidi.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:18] And Heidi was living in New York at the time and we would get together and do an occasional swing dance event. But she had a full time ballroom partner who was Dimitri, who's also in Dancing Stars, who was also a top 10 finalist. So you think you dance our same.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] So she auditioned in New York with Dimitri. Unbelievable.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:34] So we didn't even, like, we weren't even paired up and like, they didn't know until later. Right. And so when I auditioned, I remember, like some of the disliked me, some of that didn't. I had to do hip hop, I had to do jazz dance. I had to do all these other subcategories. And for some reason I survived. I did. I don't know how. I didn't think I would because I remember one of the choreographers that was doing this was looking at me, rolling his eyes the whole time and purposely trying to like, just stare me down and burn me. He wanted me to break. And he said really bad things, really insulting things off camera to me that I'm glad Weren't actually put on camera. I mean, really bad stuff. Like, it was bad. And I think they did it to kind of make me feel dramatic. I mean, they were setting me up the whole time. They're really good about that. Like, they probably thought I was gonna be at least sent to the next round, which is Vegas. And so they're like, you know, he's a good partner dancer. He could be entertaining. We'll cut him there. And that was their plan. Nigel told me that.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:27] Yeah, he didn't think I was gonna be on the show.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] He didn't?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:30] Nah. He told us that the day. The day before the results of the final show. He brought up the top four, brought us to lunch, and kind of said, ask anything except who's gonna win tomorrow. And so we asked a lot of questions. It was actually kind of cool. It's kind of like talking to the wizard of Oz behind the curtain, you know, like, let's see, what is this really all about? Because we know this smoke is all bs, you know, it's bs.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] What do you mean?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:52] Bullshit?

John Dehlin [00:28:53] What do you mean?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:55] I know, meaning, you know, the only thing that we knew that was real was the results, Right? The final results. That's all real. Everything else is still. You sign a contract where it's at the discretion of the producers. Nigel, in an essence, if he wants to send someone else home, even if they didn't number wise, deserve it, he could send them home. He could save people, too, you know? And so I thought that was really interesting. He told me that I went through Vegas week. I danced, saved my life, whatever made the show.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] So was that, like, was that grueling?

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:35] Oh, my gosh. Well, the worst thing was, is when I was waiting, like, they said they sent me to Vegas. And of course, I cried on national television. Super embarrassing. Whatever. And I got a ticket to Vegas, and I cried. I think it's because I was investing so much of this. I mean, honestly, looking back on the whole gay side of things, I was like, cool. I might have a career. Like, if I can be on a TV show, I might get some exposure to be able to take care of myself and a family at one day.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] So were you running from your gayness?

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:00] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] And were you feeling that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:03] I had a dance of all things, which is really ironic.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] And you were feeling like God was on my side. On your side, Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:09] I felt like I fasted once a week from the time I auditioned for so youo Think to the time I finished the show. And I prayed him. I said, heavenly Father, all I'm fasting is to be safe, to keep my health, bless the people of Oaxaca and my family. And then I said, but could you please let me not win this show? Or could. No, I said this. Could you please not let me make this show? If I'm gonna. If I'm going to lose my way spiritually in the process of getting into Hollywood or getting into tv, if I'm gonna go the gay route, like, if I'm gonna falter, and if you want me to go to BYU or something like that to be safe, we can talk about that later. But, you know, then. Then make sure I don't make this. Break my knees. Let me not get casted, you know? And I remember the day after Vegas, week after that all happened, because that's a whole nother week. That's.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Wait, so you cried on national television when you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:05] When you made it to Vegas?

John Dehlin [00:31:07] How many people go from LA to Vegas?

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:08] Like 300.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So many.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:10] Right. But out of 12,000, so that's still kind of cool.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] 12,000? Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:14] Yeah. Nationwide. Right. So it's a big. It's. It's kind of a big to do. And most those people are professional dancers that have worked on tv music videos. And here I am, like, dancing with a partner, and I thought it was really cheesy because all the partner dancers that were on the season prior were ballroom dancers, but they had, like, the perfect bodies and face, and I had neither of them that I had no sex appeal. I was the antithesis to music video dancer. Right? So for me, I'm like, how do I do this? But I'm gonna win this. I just knew it. And so I made it to Vegas. Vegas was really grueling, and people just started getting dropped like flies.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] How did you survive? What do you think it was?

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:52] I slept with every judge. I don't know. Nothing. No, I didn't. But like we all said, two months again, break from LA to Vegas. So I quit school then, and I'm like, every day I'm training, and I trained. Trained my butt off my dance studio. I trained with my parents. I trained. I watched videos of. I watched the whole entire season. I memorized everyone's routine. If I can get through this, then I can get through whatever those choreographers give me the next time.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] So there's the boy standing in front of the TV doing the choreography.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:22] And I didn't have the money at this time.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Who would think that that. That thing you did as a child, you literally do as an adult?

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:27] Completely to this day, Right. Oh, you can, please.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] It's just some crazy little boy dancing in front of a tv.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:33] That was terrible.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Now, as a returned missionary, you're doing

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:35] it on a laptop. I downloaded legally all the episodes of the show because I came home from my mission when the show was still going. I only just saw the end because my friend was playing that last episode. And, you know, I watched everything, and I learned about the winners. I learned, you know, why people might have liked them on the camera and then on the dance floor. Because it's two separate games, right? And I found out that you're casted by two groups. You're casted by production, and you're casted by choreographers, And I was not casted by the choreographers. In Vegas week, they even do, like, a 500 question to see if you're schizophrenic, because you know they're liable for you. They house us during that time, and if someone starts stabbing everyone in their sleep, they're completely liable. And they had these former FBI agents do background checks and investigations. We had to confess to them about anything we've ever done. I remember, like, all the other people. There's, like, a top 40 at this point, and they would, like, go in and everyone just walk out crying. And here I am, this good mormon boy that's never done anything.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] Sure shook you up, baby.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:33] I walked in, and it was literally 10 seconds. They're like, what are you? I'm like, I'm LDS. They're like, Bye. And I'm like, thanks. See you later. Everyone else is crying. I had this naked picture online, and that was the easiest test of the whole experience, you know?

John Dehlin [00:33:51] So, wait, when you were suffering through Vegas, that didn't just happen randomly. If you have to dig deep and be honest about your talents and abilities, what do you think it was that helped you make it through the grueling nature of the Vegas auditions?

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:10] Well, they don't do this anymore. But in our Vegas audition, they almost kind of starved us both without food and sleep one night because at the end of the show, they learned from the finale from the prior season. You're learning five routines, two group numbers, doing a couple solos within two days time. You're not sleeping, you're not eating. You're dancing the whole time. And they want to see who can cut it physically. I actually thought it was really cool, but people were passing out. People were breaking ankles, vomiting on stage. It was bad. They didn't show any of that, though, on tv because it looked too torturous. I think. But I lived in Oaxaca, Mexico, for two years. Bring it.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Really?

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:47] Yeah. I ate bugs. Like, this is nothing to me. Sometimes we went without food for a couple of days because the members were too poor to give us food and we had no money. Bring it.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] So it was your Mormon experience that

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:00] sort of my mission prepared you? My mission to this day is still the utmost. I don't know. It's the biggest training I've ever had in life experience to deal with anything. So I'm forever grateful of that. That's still active in my life today. So, yeah, it was. So I was like, this sucks. And people are crying and complaining, but it's like I used to get stung by scorpions in my sleep. This is not that bad. And we're on tv, folks. This is really cool. And so what people were like. Like this in the background corner, I was in front of one of the. One of the television cameras cracking jokes because they asked us to. They're like, you know, you're judged for two things. How you are personally with that, the camera, and how you are on the dance floor. As a dancer, do you think you

John Dehlin [00:35:47] were an inferior dancer to many of the people you competed with?

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:52] Coming from the perfectionist inside of me says that yes. And comparatively speaking, I'm pretty kick ass now in a lot of genres of dance.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] So you're a better dancer now than you were then?

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:03] I am ten times the dancer now than I was then. And teacher and choreographer and visual art, just artistically speaking, ten times, tenfold. Thanks to that. Thanks to that experience in a nutshell. While I was there, there were a lot of fun little hardships. But when I actually made this show and I'd been fasting that whole day for the results, now they make it seem like you're still in Vegas, but really it's like another two months later. And so they had to recut our hair. We had to wear the same colors. It's in a Hollywood backdrop. It's not even at the hotel in Vegas where we're at. It's a green screen.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] That's weird.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:39] It's so totally weird. But you watch it. And one of the choreographers couldn't be back on it because she decided to cut her hair off. And so, like, it was only like, Nigel and Mary and, like, you know, Shane Sparks or somebody. And they messed with me while I was in Los Angeles. They made me cry. They knew they can push my buttons, but I. In the end, they waited out. I was not casted originally. I was boy number 11, the alternate what? On so youo Think youk Can Dance Season two. What? Crazy, right? I thought it's kind of. I think it's kind of cool. I was boy number 11, and the boy that was cast into my place, like the nerdy all American kid, failed his psych test.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Oh, bummer.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:19] Miserably, too. I found out what happened. I'm not going to divulge, but some crazy stuff. Some cray cray stuff. So thanks to him and a very awkward thing he likes to do. I want to say it so bad. I'm not. Yeah, yeah. I made the show last minute. It was like a very.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] How did they make it look like you got the announcement with the other 10 and that it was.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:45] Oh, that happened all together. So remember, Vegas happened. We all auditioned. There was 20. Oh, there's 40 people left. They cut that in half. But they have two months to cast it. So they did all the background checks and found out.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:57] Through the grapevine. So he was cast up until a week prior and they found something.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:02] And then, oh, we got to bring him in.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Got it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:05] And because of that, they paired me up with this hip hop dancer who's still a great friend. Don Yale, my partner. I love her to death. She recently just got married. She's absolutely awesome, talented, just one of the most badass people I've ever met in my life. And wonderfully humble and spiritual and beautiful people I've ever met. We connected so well. But they put her with me because I was this scrawny little cheesy nerdy goofball, right. That had no soul in him, apparently. And mind you, another two months to like, you know, get in shape a little bit. And then she's this voluptuous, beautiful, attacking, hard hip hop dancer. Like polar opposites. And of course, we draw hip hop the first week, which is planned.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] So you guys were paired from the start with your partner at the beginning.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:51] We don't find out to the day of it. They knew they had a game plan. And Nigel told me at that special dinner, the Willy Wonka touring through Wonka Land, he told me. He's like, we purposely gave you hip hop on the first week. And an awesome hip hop dancer that's voluptuous. And you guys are not ergonomically matched. Like, most of the couples are here to get you knocked out. You're an alternate. We wanted you out. And of course, again, the whole imma prove you wrong. Like Danielle, I looked at her, I said, listen, you're going to have to help me through this, but I guarantee you I'm not going to fail you as a partner. And she's like, I have no doubt. And so we just. We were the only couple. I don't know if we're the only couple in the history of the show. I haven't watched it since my sister season, but we're the only couple at the time that has never gotten to the bottom, like, never had a dance for their lives. So theoretically, we're the most successful couple ever on the show.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Wow. That's cool.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:45] Yeah.

Competing on So You Think You Can Dance

John Dehlin [00:39:46] So what was the show like?

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:48] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Is it every week?

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:50] You do it every week? Every week. And it was tedious and time consuming and crazy. We all live together, so competitors have to live with each other, but you might be partnering with each other another day, so you don't want to kill each other. So it's part, like, Big Brother, like, part Survivor where you create alliances in their war. There was actually like a small little, like, secret combination and I hated them.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] But so kind of like, what's the TV show with the islands and you're trying to Survivor.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:14] Yeah, a little bit of Survivor. You create alliances. We didn't. I was trying to be friends with everybody and I was kind of rejected. People knew that I was this weirdo that doesn't really belong there. And so I either got along really well with them or they just absolutely didn't even talk to me. Cast members.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] But Heidi was on, right? Yeah. She was part of the alliance.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:35] I didn't have an alliance. I was cool with everyone. I was Switzerland.

John Dehlin [00:40:39] So let's talk about the main part of so youo Think youk Can Dance. So what's it like? You know, what's it like with the different performers or contestants? What's it like with the judges? What's it like week to week? Yeah, talk about that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:56] It's scary. It's fun. The best part of it is I remember the first day we walked out on the live taping and there's a crowd there and there are people with your. Your name like, signs just. You don't even know who they are. And they watch just auditions and they've already formed fans like different people. And we were just blown away by it. Remember, they said, here are your top 20 dancers. And we walked out before the cameras rolled, before it was live tv. And the eruption was beyond overwhelming. All of us just kind of stood there. I remember seeing Nigel smiling, just so happy because he's like, we have a hit this year and it's such a big thing. And we were cracking up about that, but it was overwhelming. And every day, every week, it became bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And the fans became more extreme. More extreme. More extreme.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Okay, so is it being televised each week as it's happening?

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:46] Yes. Yes. So they record everything live, meaning there's no second takes, no this and that. But it airs later on. It airs a day later. Okay, Right. So in case, like, there's a nipple slip or a cuss word, they can edit that stuff out, but they keep the integrity of the dances intact.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] So when we're watching it. Okay, but when the studio. When the studio audience is seeing it, it's a day before the performance day.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:13] Yes, yes. Now that they've changed it now because one of the results show has been canceled for this season. I don't. I don't speak for. On behalf of so youo Think youk Can Dance. Grateful for the experience, but I'm not a part of that show anymore. But in our era, they had the live. The live performance recording, and they would play that on a different day.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Okay. Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:31] And then when that show aired that day, the very next day, I think we had one day in between. So it'd be like a Monday. It was on Tuesday. We'd have results on Wednesday.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:41] And that was live. That's completely live.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] The results show.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:44] We have to dance for your solo. You do. The only thing that wasn't live was the group routines that we do. We'd film that earlier on in the mornings with a separate group of extras that would walk in and pretend to be an audience so we could be in costume, focus on that, get a lot of camera angles, rehearse it, perform it like five or six times so they got every good angle. And in case someone really flubbed up, they wanted it to look as best as possible. Because those numbers are graded in Emmys, they can win Emmys. So they want them to be as elaborate and as beautiful as they can. So that's the only time where it was not where everything's like, pre recorded and could be done over and over and over again. Because it's not a part of the competition. Theoretically. Theoretically. And other than that, though, I mean, we would literally. We would draw a name out of a hat. We'd have our partner for the first half of the show. Then the second half of the season, you'd have a new partner every week, and you dance with that person. You have one and a half hours. Sorry, Three hours on camera. No, sorry, I lied. One and a half hours. On camera to learn the routine from the choreographer with your partner that day.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Is that not enough time?

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:47] That's nothing. I mean, I was used to doing three minute dance numbers and swing dancing and taking six weeks to choreograph something. So not at all, you know. And they. We would have that and the next day you'd have three hours off camera to tech it. So normally we would learn like maybe the hard moves for an hour and a half. And it's good tv. If someone falls in their face or whatever, like doing a big stunt, it's great for camera, yada, yada yada. But sometimes these choreographers wouldn't know what they were doing. They wouldn't be inspired. And it's hard. I've also choreographed on that show and international variations of the show as well. And you don't know what you're going to get. Like you're a specialist in your dance. But they might be completely polar opposite. So that's always, you know, it's a weird science and a chemical reaction. So we do that for three hours the next day, and then that night you can't find rehearsal time. We're kind of locked in like this apartment complex. So we have this little gym, but there's not enough space. And the neighbors would complain and this and that. So we would be like in our rooms or we'd all get together, like kind of like the group. Someone had rehearsed with each other. Me and my partner Danielle would rehearse a lot, lot of the times with Heidi and a couple of others. And we would get together. It was always us, basically, where we would get together and go back and forth and just give each other retro elementation and constructive criticism. And if someone was a specialist in the room in that subject, we grab onto them because we would help them the next week with our specialties.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] So they would help each other.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:10] Half would and half were so damn naturally talented that they would just do what was asked of them and go and party. Or they love the Hollywood lifestyle.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] They could go out and party. You weren't like quarantined?

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:23] No, they would party in their rooms. Like they would just go out and like have a party. Like get into each other's rooms and, you know, drink or do other activities. And they would. And it was about half and half. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:36] A lot of drugs, though. I mean, I wore the wisdom boy here, so I was good. But there was a lot of drugs.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Just performance enhancing or just. No, definitely just anxiety reducing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:49] Just recreational, illegal, illicit drugs.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Okay, all right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:53] The kind that you would be arrested if you were selling. Okay, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] But not the Mormons though, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:02] No, I'm just kidding. I will not give or divulge any names. But, you know, it was. It was a very interesting time because it was very chaotic behind the scenes. People were both competing against each other, but knew that they needed each other to help each other out. It was this really weird love hate relationship with a lot of the people there. I just kind of stayed out of it. I tried to be friends with everybody. Some people didn't like me and I just stayed away from them, plain and simple. But there would always be comments. Like sometimes when we rehearse the opening number or something and I would do a movement or something, you'd hear like a little. So at that point it's like maybe I was one of the older ones on the show. There's a lot of 18 year olds. And I just looked at it as like I was out of high school at 15. Like, grow the heck up, like whatever. I just don't really care. But, you know, half the choreographers were that way. Half the choreographers were brilliant and wonderful and the others were talentless. Some were talentless. Some were ridiculously brilliant and amazing and technical and wonderful. Some were ridiculously brilliant, but also narcissistic and just demeaning and terrible. And some were on drugs coming in there. Some were drunk. It was an interesting experience, you know.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] So not all the judges are top notch world class terrorists.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:15] No. And in fact, not all the choreographers. Not all the choreographers. I had to. Most of them are, don't get me wrong. Most of them are like the elite of their genre, definitely. But there's a couple of old maids out there that are just not good. There were even moments. I remember one couple, and I'm not going to name the couple, but earlier on in the season they got a guy who lied on his resume and got hired to do something. Never worked with these people that he ever did. Walked in there, wanted to get on TV and left and they had nothing. They had to come up with something. Last minute. They just kind of shook their butts on the stage. It was bad. But the thing is, with me at that time, I was already a choreographer in swing. And I'm more better here than I am in physical anyways. So I would ask questions and I was good about using the. How do you say it in English? El modelo de compromiso.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Commitment pattern.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:10] Commitment pattern? Yeah. I would use the commitment pattern on a lot of the choreographers, if I didn't like the move without saying, I don't like this and getting on their back side and then judging me the next week and hating me, I'd be like, okay, so is it like this? Or I do my version to make it a lot better. You have to play that game, because in the end, it is your voice that you're projecting. They give you the inspiration, the palette, the colors to use, but you really are painting the picture, and in the end, they're voting about you, not the choreographer. And I think I had an advantage in that sense because I was very aware of what would sell and what didn't. I had that I felt inspired in that sense of what was good, what would be projected and readable and what wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Were there choreographers you really loved or that? I mean, do you talk about the positive relationships at all, or do you just not like to talk about people by name at all?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:00] You know what's funny is the dynamic changes, though. So being the student, right? There were a couple choreographers. There's a couple choreographers this day that if I see them, I will just do this to them. Like, I love them dearly.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] And you don't want to say their names?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:11] I don't want to.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] That's fine. No, I just want to. And why is that? Just so that I can learn what the.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:15] Because it's a process of elimination. So if I was to say the ones that I like. You already know which ones. I didn't got it. Just to protect everyone in that sense, out of respect to their careers. And so there were some.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] So there were some you loved?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:26] Oh, there's some that I absolutely loved. Some that hated me, but I loved that, like, beat me down. I'm a totally masochistic, like, perfectionist person when it comes to.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] They hated you, like, really didn't they?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:35] Hated me. Hated my dancing, hated my personality, hated my style, hated everything.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] They would come at you, but I.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:39] I would tell him it's okay, and I would work harder for them than anyone do it. There was one in particular, and I don't think he would have a problem. He even admitted this Brian Friedman on the show, and I think he's beyond brilliant. And he hated me when I auditioned in la. He hated me when I auditioned in Las Vegas. Did not want me to go on. He said this on TV so you could see it, But I drew him my third week, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna lose this week. I'm going Home. I'm packing my bags.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] Why?

Benji Schwimmer [00:50:06] Because he hated me. He was out to just get me out. And he's like. He just literally walked. And he's like, if you don't get this and pick it up really quickly, you're gonna go home. And I'm like, just ready to go. I had nightmares about seeing him the day before. Like, it was bad. And he worked with us. And I remember, like, I would fall, he would tell me to drop, and I would just do it. And I would do it 120%, even if it was bad. Like, he did see that I was working my butt off. And by the end, when we performed it and it got like a standing ovation and like, we actually gave his piece justice, like, he was cool with me and I earned my stripes, theoretically, in that sense. And he's been really cool with me ever since, actually. It's been really nice. However, after leaving the show and choreographing on the show or becoming a professional in different genres and exploring different realms, or taking some of their jobs or being agencies putting us up against each other with our choreography reels or this and that. Not him, but other people. Some of the dynamics with the choreographers that I absolutely loved. It's that whole, like, it's the killing the nest here. You're my chicken here. I have a wing over you. And frankly, if I'm doing a better job than you or if I got the job, congratulate me. Critique me too, but don't hate me. And that happened a lot. The problem with dance is we're all artists. We're all sensitive people. We've all developed really weird stigmas about our people bodies, about how we move, about how we act, because we look at a mirror 24 7. We're constantly in critique and we're constantly fighting ourselves. We're constantly competing against other dancers that we only know. We only know the dance life. So we're friends with everyone, but we're also the most bitter of competitive enemies. And it's a really weird dichotomy. And, like, luckily I had friends from church and I had friends that I didn't necessarily compete against, but we all social dance and dance together. So I had a good group of friends and it didn't bother me. But, you know, for these people that live in Hollywood, they eat, sleep, breathe. The audition process, which I loathe. I did so youo Think youk Can Dance. And one music video audition, and that was it. I'm good if you want my stuff. I have A reel. You can look at it. Hire me. Or don't. I'm good.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] What can you say about Nigel and Mary that you're comfortable saying?

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:18] There's a funny. I didn't even miss.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] These are two of the main judges on the show.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:21] Yeah, two of the main judges. Nigel's the executive producer, co creator of the show. Nigel's first and foremost a businessman. You know, he makes the show succeed, and he's kept a dance show without any celebrity names that are attached to it alive for nine seasons. That's pretty brilliant. He's one of the brains behind American Idol, too, Even though he doesn't claim a lot of it. He is.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] His name's on the.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:43] Well, there's another Nigel, too, but, yeah, his name is on there. And so Nigel's brilliant in that sense. I mean, he did some choreography in his day, and for someone who isn't, quote unquote, a true dancer, that just dedicates himself to that craft. He's got a good, natural eye for what will sell on TV and what won't. And he's really good about picking who's going to win within a week or two. He picked the top six the first week that we were on, and you

John Dehlin [00:53:11] were one of them.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Okay, cool.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:13] I proved him wrong that day. He's like, oh, he'll be in the final.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] Nice, nice.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:18] And so he's good in that sense. But Nigel's a businessman. He's the executive producer. He's a busy man. So you don't really grow close with him. You seldom see him.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] You don't hang out with Nigel.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:27] No, I don't. But he likes during.

John Dehlin [00:53:29] During the performance? During the competition?

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:30] No, not at all. In fact, the idea is you don't fraternize with judges, so you're not supposed to see them. The only time they see you is on a dress rehearsal the day of the show, and they sit down without makeup, and they sit in their chairs, and they take notes about what they want to critique us on.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] Oh, so they.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:43] Yeah, oh, they see it.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] It's not first time. So when they're reacting like, whoa, that changed my life. They will have already seen it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:49] But that could have changed your lives because usually they're really bad dress rehearsals. I mean, we're just putting these things together. And it's because of the adrenaline and the, like, Russian roulette aspect of being on the show that we pull things out of our butts. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] So you're. You're running on adrenaline.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:04] Oh, you are. And that's why I think sometimes when they are floored, they're like, whoa. Like, because it was really bad. I would even sometimes if I knew that I had a really good piece trip and a dress rehearsal or miss one thing in particular, one element that I knew that you would probably look for, and I would nail it on the floor.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] That's evil.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:24] It is.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] That's evil.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:25] You know what, though? If they're gonna play that game where I've never cheated, I never tried hurting someone else, I never spoke poorly of people on the show. I always helped everyone. Like, I was always about that. Bring the best. Competition will bring the best out of me. But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Oh, yeah, yeah. They talk about you guys during the show with such affection that you get the sense that you're, like, having lunch and dinner together and hanging out.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:48] No, but I think they. They do feel, like, parental in a certain sense because they're giving us guides and they understand what's at stake for us. Do you know what I mean? Like, they see the fact that this could affect our lives. Six weeks, six months, really, if you include auditions and tour, can affect the rest of our lives greatly.

John Dehlin [00:55:09] And they're sensitive to that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:10] I think they're very sensitive to that. And a lot of the ones that they see are dedicated. Even if they're not going to make it, they're very good about and they'll be complimented. Now, those that have really bad egos, that are not good with them on camera, but are not selling to the general public. See you later. Get an attitude adjustment and they'll put you in check. There's a couple people with bad attitudes my season, and they put them in check. A couple people with bad attitudes off camera, but great ones on camera. So they let them stay.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] So what do you say about Mary? Is Mary still on the show? She was off for a while.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:40] Don't ask me about anything new. I have no idea, but I would assume so. Mary's awesome. Mary, I think, was present when I was born. She's from San Diego. She's a dance studio owner. And my parents were like, so you guys went back?

John Dehlin [00:55:53] Go back?

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:54] Yeah. I mean, I don't. I didn't know Mary very well. She knew of me, though, I think, like, she was at an event when my mom fell into labor or something. And, like, all these dancers were there. In fact, people that run the BYU Department of Dance, like, they were there when I was born. So I see. I have pictures of them holding me in my weird, like, you know, clay face. And they are holding me. And little do I know that this person's going to be judging me 22 years later kind of cool. But Mary was awesome and she always. She tried to fight for the partner dancers because we were always like the second tier people. You're always considered lesser than.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Really?

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:27] Oh, very much so. Even behind the scenes costumes that we would get, the people we talked to as the choreographers wouldn't be nice to us. Like, we were the ones that couldn't dance by ourselves. So if we ever did something that wasn't with a partner, we were the lesser than kind of crowd. I think I'm still the only partner dancer that's ever won the show. But I also worked my butt off, you know, like, it wasn't just the partner element. I wanted to prove them wrong. That's like a theme in my life, you know, Prove them wrong. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was a really interesting. So Mary was very supportive. But Mary was supportive of everybody. She is mama hen for sure. Her and the host, Kat D. Lee were always just. They loved everybody. Okay. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Did you get to hang with Kat?

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:07] I got to hang with Katie after the show. She was with us a lot more because she would do like the dress rehearsals.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] And Kat is this British blonde, beautiful. Babe.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:16] Sorry, Markie.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Babe.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:18] And she. What's funny? She looks like she's nine feet tall. She's shorter than I am.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Oh.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:21] But she wears these heels. And we're. Half the time we're barefoot on the show. So we're like. She has hair and the dress and, you know, at times she would mess with us. Like, you know, she usually puts her arm around us when we're getting judges critiques. And if it's a bad one, she would, like massage us. But if it's a good one, she'd be giving me a wedgie.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] What?

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:37] She's just like that. She's absolutely wonderful and super cool and beautiful. With or without, you know, the makeup inside and out. I love her. She's wonderful. I got to kiss her on New Year's too. It was kind of amazing. We did, like this performance for Fox New Year's Eve and. Yeah. So the ball dropped and we were there and I kissed Kat D. Lee. I'll say that with pride and arousal. So it's good.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] What's it like? What's it like when you're. Well, what's it like with. What was it like to have so many Mormons or Utah people sort of in the same.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:12] Yeah, I think there was. There was four on my cast out of 20 that were, that were LDS, myself and my cousin included. And, you know, every week, you know, someone's in the bottom two or bottom three and they have to like dance for their life, kind of like sing for your life. Anyways, so it literally would be weekly where I would have to give someone a blessing. And I was known as the return missionary. Like, I wore my CTR ring and some people were active, some people were inactive, some people believed, some people didn't. But I. Every week I gave a blessing to somebody on that show.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] What would the blessing be?

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:43] Basically it would just be to be calm, to be safe, to have health, to be clear of thoughts. Heavenly Father loves you. I mean, you've been given a great talent and a great opportunity. Relish in it. Whether it's going to be cut today or extend it to the very end of the show. I think that was usually kind of the sentiment that I felt inspired to say.

Faith and Sexuality While on the Show

John Dehlin [00:59:00] And what was your religious mojo or connection or disposition as you were going through the show?

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:08] Very strong. In fact, I was very well aware. I believed, because I was fasting and praying that God wanted me to do this. God wanted me to be on this. I was going to be successful. I said, if I make this show, I'm going to win it. Heavenly Father. So that's not copyright. Like, I never believed I was a better dancer than anyone on that show. I cried the day after I won the show because I felt so guilty for winning. I said, I want to get the check back. I want to give it all back. I offered my contract for Celine Dion to one of the other dancers in the top four. I turned it down. I said, I don't deserve this. You guys are all better dancers than I am. And all four of you survived this epic warfare for all this time along with me. I feel completely undeserving of this. So it wasn't that element.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] You genuinely didn't feel deserving?

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:51] Not at all. I mean, I just had this deep rooted feeling that I was supposed to win that show. I really did. I felt it was my destiny. That's a better way to put it.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] It's crazy. Do you think other dancers had the same feeling?

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:06] I think the dancers just wanted to win a lot of money or get a lot of fame. I didn't care about that stuff. I just knew I was supposed to win the stand up show. I did, plain and simple. And I never voiced that to any of them. I didn't want to make that sound like I was cocky. I knew I was One of the worst ones there. I knew I was one of the least experienced ones. I just got back from my mission. I didn't have my dancer body there. It was tough. So in and out of all that, my spiritual thing was this. I would read my scriptures every morning. I'd have my own devotional. I would listen to hymns in my ipod at the time, which I was really amazed by because I didn't have those before my mission and come home from Mexico and you have an ipod and what is this madness? So all I had was, like, church music on it anyways. And I would either be doing that or practicing my pieces for the week. That's it. Never once did anything else. And I lived, breathed and slept either. My dancing. And when I braked, I didn't chill. I didn't watch tv. I had my nose in the scriptures, really. I really felt a sense that, one, I need to stay on my toes. Because at first they told us we couldn't even go to church. And Heidi and I, my cousin Heidi and I, and some of the other LDS people sometimes would come with us, too. We would actually sneak out. There was this fire escape that we would go, and there's security that walked the perimeter of this place. I mean, it was. It was jam tight. His name's Patrick. He hated me because he would always see us sneaking out and like, we're going to church no matter what. And Heidi and I would sneak out to go to a sacrament meeting in the Santa Monica First Ward, which is like a big Hollywood ward. And it was really cool, actually. We would go out and do it and we'd run right back and before rehearsal started. And so Haidi and I would always go to sacrament meeting. And I felt like that was very integral and very important to us because we believed that Heavenly Father was both giving us, one, an opportunity that was so big, and it was only because of our obedience that we were getting that blessing. And two, we were representing Mormons on a TV show. I mean, that was a very big element to it. My bishop told me before, when I found out I was casted to go on the show, he's like, you shouldn't go in the show. It's going to ruin your stuff. Soul. It's going to damn your soul. I'm like, well, I've prayed about this. And at the time, I understood the idea of infallible servitude being a load of crap. So I'm like, you don't know what you're talking about. Lord says I should. So I'm going. But I remember after the first week I did the hip hop routine and I had a MySpace at the time. Facebook wasn't really that big. And I got probably 5,000 emails that night just from LDS people alone. And a good 3,000 of them were geared towards hate. Like, you're a bad example. You should not be gyrating on TV with a girl and they would say like a black girl.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] Did you say those?

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:34] I can go in my MySpace. I still have, I don't know, check it. But you know, I still have all those emails.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] I mean, what was that like to get those emails?

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:40] I was.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] There were good ones too, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:41] I was gonna say that, you know, there's a 50, 50 thing we talked about earlier on about 50% that get it and don't. And the other ones were like so complimentary and like there are other people that said, you know what, I just let the missionaries in because I found out you wore CTR ing and they did like little things like that. I've gotten a lot of emails saying we got baptized because we saw that Mormons were actually semi normal. They could handle living in this world, being themselves, but also be of the world, you know, just not in it or be in the world not, I don't know, whatever that phrase is. So it was weird. I think felt a severe heavy responsibility. I think even the Salt Lake Tribune wrote a really bad article about me the first week. I think they called it the gyrating ex missionary. Not an elder or returned missionary or anything like that. So, you know, on my MySpace that first week we would get all sorts of really bad emails and good emails. There's lots of them. But beyond that, there was even in the Salt Lake Tribune there was an article that called me like the gyrating ex missionary and how I was a poor example of showing like really bad conduct with a girl and how it was just really depressing for the church and making us look like bad people.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] But you, this is like the Mormon

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:55] of the same day I mentioned I was a missionary. And then I also started a non for profit helping underprivileged kids in northern Mexico. I mean, come on, you know, it was, it was bad.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] You were doing what the choreographers had you do, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:06] Well, not only that though, like there were moments that I thought I actually ever ask the choreographer. I really don't feel comfortable doing this. And could we please just do something else? I'll flip, I'll stand on my head. I will pull my fingers back if you want me to. But can we change this just easily. Not a problem. It was never an issue. And the funny thing is, when I dance, whether it's with a guy or a girl, by myself, I'm not aroused either way. When I'm dancing, I'm so concentrated on movement, not sex in any way, shape or form. And it's just not the emotion that you feel when you're a trained dancer at all. So for someone to say that one is both ignorant and completely untrue. So a couple weeks later though, through the grapevine, I heard it was from one of the 12, apparently that kind of said, you need to put in a rebuttal to this article. And it was said that, you know, they sent this new picture of me, like me as a missionary with a white shirt and tie, saying like, returned missionary sets good example on, you know, reality tv. You know, Mormons can dance or something like that. And so after that article came out, I noticed.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] It came out where?

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:14] Probably a couple weeks into it, maybe like three or four weeks into it. Deseret News, I want to say it was the Salt Lake Tribune, I think. I don't remember. But to be honest with you, it was really interesting because after that week I saw this article and I got even more hate mail. One thing they told us to do is to stay away from reading email messages, but I was the kind. I want to know exactly what the people are thinking, what they like, what they don't like, because these are the people that are ultimately deciding my fate here. Right? So I was very adamant. I read every message board. I mean, I read all the hate message boards in particular. What do people hate about me? I don't care what they like because that's. I'm on the right track. Then I did that. It's a total.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Would you change how you performed based on feedback you got?

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:51] You know, I. Yeah, a little bit. Not how I would perform, but maybe some of my conduct. I would make sure if a group of people finds this hyper offensive, it wasn't my intention. I don't want to offend anybody. So I was. That I was very conscious of not trying to hurt people as missionaries do too. You don't want to offend anyone that you're around to gain better success. And it was kind of the same thing. But after that, good. That positive article came out, there would be hordes of people from byu. They would have these like, excursions from BYU where people would like carpool and come down and they would have. It would say ctb, like the CTB choose the Benji. Choose the Benji Sons. Right? And it was awesome. And people would, like, hold up, like, the I love you like the Taylor Swift sign. But I totally did that before she did. Before she was even alive almost, Right? But yeah, like, they did all that. And it was so supportive and so. Well, even a bully from my junior high school that he and I never spoke after the fact. He was in the audience one time with a sign that said, I am so sorry, Benji, you rock.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Whoa.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:58] And I was like, whoa. You know, kind of cool how, you know, because I'm a dancer. It went full circle. You know, it's kind of neat that sticking with that passion. It was very blessed. It was a very validating time in my life as a dancer. It validated my dance as both a Mormon and a dancer and how that's cool and appealing and millions of people kind of like it.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] So in your mind, were you dancing for you? Were you dancing for Mormonism or the church? What were you all of the above?

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:27] You were like, are we not all a part of the same church body? I mean, is that not what we really are? Are we not a movement? Are we not all perfect? Collectively, but not individually? Yeah, of course I felt that. I felt that I had to set an example. But more than anything, I took joy from people saying, thank you for making us look normal a little bit. That we can dance and we can do these things.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] Mormons.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:51] Mormons, yeah. Members of the church. It was wonderful. It was wonderful to see that. And you would still get hate emails, but you have to develop kind of a thick skin really quickly. Because I nearly quit the show the second weekend.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] What?

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:04] After I read that article and I thought to myself, heavenly Father, am I being deceived by Satan here?

John Dehlin [01:08:08] Because your bishop's sort of warnings, that

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:10] warning plus all this hate mail, maybe the Mormons know better than I do. The Utah crowd knows it a lot better than me being a California Sunday Mormon almost all my life. That's what I was thinking. And I thought, geez, you know what? What a conflict. Like, am I going to hell? Like, am I really that? Am I that prideful to think that I'm being deceived right now? And I'm thinking it's God talking to me. And then the thing that got me out of it was not only that article, but it was the fact that the same voice that told me to keep going, you know, that same feeling and vibe is the same voice and feeling that I felt on my mission. So if that was false or if that Was just my head or a psychological break or lapse, Then it's all bad. All or nothing.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:54] Prove it wrong.

John Dehlin [01:08:55] So the same inspiration that was leading you through so you think you can dance was what you felt in your

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:00] mission, and it was for my family. During the time while we were on the show, part of my dance studio caught on fire. We don't know how it happened, but we lost a lot of income from it. And I'm thinking, gosh, you know, $100,000 in this moment. I don't care about it for myself. That could really help us out. That could really help my family out, you know, that would be wonderful. And my parents were actually officially divorced while I was on the live tapings.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] Oh, no.

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:22] And my mom. Yeah, my mom was like, after the divorce was final, she brought in, like, a guy that she dated that she met on, like, Mormon mingle or something. It was fun. I don't care. I'm all about them dating at that point. And they'd been separated for so long at that point, it was just like, this is cool, you know, Find happiness. Both you get sealed in the temple. Do good, you know, And I'm with them. And I would see them in the audience, like, dad sits here, mom sits there, sister and friends are in the middle. But they were all there in good sense, spirit. And it wasn't really anything different than I'd not seen in the last 10, 20 years of my life.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] Do you have a couple favorite numbers that you perform that are just really memorable for you?

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:57] Well, I love the group numbers just because it was all about performance. It wasn't a competition. It was all about entertainment. So I love doing, like, the. It won an Emmy. The Rama Lamba piece that we did by Wade Robson. I think the top 10 did that originally, and the whole cast did it again at the end of the season. It's the only number that's been repeated three times ever on so youo Think youk Can Dance, and it won an Emmy. We got to dress up like dead people. I mean, you know, how cool is that? I had finger waves in my hair.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Is that Shane Sparks?

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:23] Wade Robson.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] Oh, that's right. Wade Robson. Love that guy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:26] He's brilliant. Yeah. He and I actually both have the same mental disorder. It's synesthesia, where your senses are crossed. I see sound, and he sees sound like that, too. There's a couple of us. We've all talked, and, like, you do you see, like, ribbons coming out of stuff the speakers or over your eyelids sometimes. And, like, yeah, when you move, you create. You see like energy trails and vapors and this and that.

John Dehlin [01:10:47] He's brilliant.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:48] Yeah, he is. He is.

John Dehlin [01:10:49] That was a great number.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:50] He's Michael Jackson's protege, right? Yeah, Right. And I love that piece. I love Brian Freeman. I loved. I really liked. I loved all the pieces. I actually really liked one of the pieces that I do with my cousin Heidi, the black mambo that we did, and it got hailed as one of the best pieces of the season. I really loved doing that. One. It was with my cousin. But two, I choreographed most of it. The teacher that we had, unfortunately, he gave us some pieces. Things didn't fit with the music and we had to make last minute decisions where we threw a lot of our swing element into it and used our experience together as a couple to kind of compensate for. He gave us a couple of fun moves, but other than that was most of our stuff.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:30] So it's kind of fun to put our swing into a different medium, which was really cool. And that was my first taste of experimenting with hybrid genres, which is what I do now. For the most part, I'll mix samba with contemporary jazz, or I'll mix Vegainese waltz with hip hop and teach that. It's a lot of fun and I make money off of it, so it's cool. One of my first experiences doing that, I love doing the piece with Travis. That was our nerdy dance. We called it the trangy dance, which sounds really bad to me. Sounds like tranny. But he and I did that. We choreographed everything but three counts of eight of that because our choreographer had to go and choreograph a movie that day. He had like 30 minutes with us and they were gonna dress. Funny story about that. They were gonna dress us up like gangsters. We're gonna wear bulletproof vests and like bandanas. And it's like he and like the punk rock ballerina and the nerdy closeted gay swing dancer that's Mormon, right? Like, dressing up like thugs was not gonna cut it. So we're like, why don't we just like nerds and just hit it as hard as we can and stress pull our shirts off at one point and, you know, do a striptease with a backpack and glasses and this and that and it, you know, that was, I think, arguably the most popular piece of the season, other than a couple other ones done by some other choreographers and dancers.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] So the pieces that were most epic for me were when you were soloing, I don't know how many times you did a solo dance, but just because

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:48] I never, never was in the bottom and I had to dance for the five weeks where we were independently voted for.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Yeah. When you were just. It was just running around, just.

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:54] I improvised all those. I never once had choreography.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] It just. You carried this happiness, this energy, this charisma, this fun. The energy was just unbelievable.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:05] Think about the very first time that I ever did something like that. Other than when I was like a four year old kid thinking I was Michael Jackson, I had no influences this time. It was just me doing me celebrating that there's an audience of 16 million people watching me in this moment. It's my own. I have a jungle gym of a floor and stairs and I don't have a partner with me. So it's not. It's not me being a good partner. It is just me. And that's really weird. And I remember sitting there and we were supposed to practice our solos before, like on a dress rehearsal and the judges are watching. And I tried doing something choreographed and it failed miserably.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] So you would just go out and do your thing.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:48] Last minute. I was supposed to start in the center of the stage with this thing that I tried choreographing and it was terrible. It was like I was supposed to be like this hobo jazz person. It was terrible. And so I'm like, you know what? Forget it, forget it. I'm just gonna do me. Like, my brain was already fried with everyone else's choreography and influence. There's too many voices at the time. I'm like, I just need to go out there. So literally 30 seconds before it started, I'm like, I'm gonna start on top of the stairs. I'm gonna slide down.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] What about the cameraman?

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:12] I told him. I told. I just said cameraman, camera five. I'm gonna be up there. I remember seeing the judges look at me like, what is he doing? I'm like, I just gotta do this. And so, you know, it's one of those things where I.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] It's really risky, though.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] Like good comedy, you know, good comedy isn't extemporaneous. It's very well planned and orchestrated.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:29] I would disagree with you because Will Ferrell and Jim Carrey have made billions almost in improvisation.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] I'm just saying that it's. It's safer.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] Safer to go the careful route, maybe,

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:44] but in this case, you're representing you. And the best way that I can be me is to just be. Be present, not to think about. I'm hyper analytical, over analytical. Person to go out there and just be me. Because I was always playing these characters too. Like, I was always the hip hop dude or this regal, debonair guy or something, or a tree or a zombie. And it would be really nice to go out there, play the music that I like to listen to, which is so far from what everyone else is listening to. I mean, I was playing like Land of a Thousand Dances. I was playing Jackie Wilson, I was playing like old school stuff and like indie rock. I was playing all these different people and which is what I loved. And it was awesome to actually put that on the show because it had never been done before. Kind of like this old soul with boyish charm thing, right? And no one's really done that. It was always trying to be like MTV generation. And I'm like, screw that. Yeah, they have enough of that all day long. But when I put on a tie and suit, pants and spats, you know, and slide on the floor like Fred Astaire, it's new for most people. And my biggest influences, for the most part, other than Michael Jackson and my family, are Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, in particular, Donald o'. Connor. Make him laugh from. I think he was Singing in the Rain. Sing in the rain. Brilliant. One of my favorite pieces of all time. So using all those elements and those solo moments were, you know, what a feeling. In Flashdance, she just went out and did her own thing. Finally, after she tried doing something else. And a lot of it, I think that influenced. This was my 80s solo climatic movie moment.

John Dehlin [01:16:20] What's that like? Being in the zone, Being in the moment.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:22] It's electricity of being you in a

John Dehlin [01:16:25] competition watched by tens of millions of people.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:27] When you add my synesthesia. So when the music really connects with me and I'm on a different plane. Right. We call it living in the dance community. He's living, like, meaning he's living in the heavens of dance right now. He's not just dancing or performing, but he's living.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] It's kind of. It's a different.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:43] It's out of body reality. It's out of body. It is. It's a different reality. You see people's faces, but it's like a canvas. It's not. And nothing's in 3D. I'm performing for one unit. And my goal is to share the energy. Whatever. Whether it's blue or red or green or black or whatever it is. I am painting the entire room with that energy. And they will feel it by the time I'm done. And I only had 30 seconds to do it. And plus that, it's like. It's just a rush. People are screaming your name and chanting you. Like, I'm this little dancer from Redlands that sold his car, that drives the crappiest car on planet Earth that will never have a girlfriend, probably. And here I am like, wow, you know, this is my megastar moment. You know, it'll never get better than that. And that sense. And I knew it, and I just was really appreciative of it. I just knew it was gonna be cool. It's just so much fun, you know, I'm never gonna be that guy that's gonna start a movie and be lean lady just for my face, you know, I'm never. I'm never gonna do that. I'm never gonna have that ability. But damn it, I'm gonna dance. I'm gonna dance my butt off right now and have a great time doing it. And it was just. Those are the moments where I could actually breathe. They were never stressful for me.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] But, like, if you trip or hurt yourself, it's over.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:51] I play it off. But, see, you say trip or this and that, but I'm also. I work my butt off and I train, so I'm not. I'm not going to fall again. I was going to win the show. It was my show.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] So you weren't like, oh, my gosh, what if I mess up?

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:06] No. In fact, the first thing, I was just fighting it. I was sitting there in the middle of that stage, and I'm like, forget this going up on the stage. I'm starting here. Let's do this. Redo one commercial. Break back. And here he is, Benji. Boom. And I didn't know what I was going to do, and I just did. Was awesome. It was fun. My favorite parts of those moments, those are my favorite parts. Not winning a competition or seeing someone go, but rather being me and just moving movement and emotion and expression. It was my way to get out the stress of the weekend, you know? But to perform, I could see every single eyeball there, and I would make sure that I would peer into something or every camera. Like, I. It was very easy for me to know where camera 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 and follow the crane that was following me. My whole dance would change based upon where the cameras were going. You're just in that weird matrix, like, zone where everything's slower. Adrenaline.

Winning, Fame, and Internal Struggle

John Dehlin [01:18:57] So what's it like to be dancing as your authentic self? What's going on in your mind in terms of your struggle? With your sexuality and with God. As you're moving closer and closer to winning, what are you thinking about this battle that you're having inside about your sexuality?

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:19] It's the only time ever came into question was when I started developing a crush on one of the boys on the show.

John Dehlin [01:19:27] One of the dancers.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:28] One of the dancers. One of my gay.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Or do you know they're all gay

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:31] except for maybe like two of them. I think all but two guys in our cast are gay. And that's usually the case on every single season. I. I love seeing these girls like, I'm still gonna marry him. And it's like, sure you will.

John Dehlin [01:19:42] So you say 8 out of 10 of the male dancers.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:44] That's 80% of the guys that have been on that show. Other than like a lot of the breakdancers and some of the ballroom boys. Break dancers and ballroom boys, you have a good chance that they're straight. Anything else? No, and I'm not saying any names, you know, because I respect their discretion. But, yeah, okay. So, yeah, I started developing a crush on one of them and. And he had a crush on me. And he kept reminding me and saying, he's like, you remind me so much about my ex boyfriend. He used to be Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] Did people date on the show? Were there behind the scene romance kind of thing?

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:18] Yeah, people hooked up. People. People had crushes. People cheated on each other. Like, it was fun. I mean, it was. It was definitely. It could have been a second reality show if they had cameras going on where we Live.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] But you weren't into that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:30] No, I was the guy that was rehearsing, crying because he couldn't get his pieces together at three in the morning. Averaging four hours of sleep.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Fasting, Reading your scriptures.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:39] Fasting, reading my scriptures.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] Dancing, giving blessings to other Mormons or

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:42] massages to my dance partners, or helping out people with partnering work.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] Okay, but you developed a crush.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:47] Yeah, and it was weird because it was one of those things, like with that missionary companion that I had. It was not. It was not like, I want to do you. It wasn't that. It wasn't carnal like that at all. In fact, looking back now in retrospect, has that ever been said on Mormon stories?

John Dehlin [01:21:07] I want to do you? No, I don't think so.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:09] Let's be honest. Yeah, it was never like that. It was never. I never felt like I was hitting on somebody. Probably because I was so closeted at the time and so repressed that it was more about. Again, it was this infatuation. Like, I feel a really great connection in my head, still thinking, I think we're just meant to be, like, the best kindred spirit soulmates ever. I really feel that way. And now in retrospect, I looked at all the girls that I dated, and I think that. I think that we're kindred spirits, but not soulmates. And I flipped. I flipped that all around. But, yeah, he and I, it was funny because, you know, we're all competing against each other, but we would extra. Help each other out and give each other extra help and, like, extra critiques on each other's work and. But. And we would, you know, like the same movies. And, like, we would. We ended up being roommates the whole time, too, which was even weirder because we were. I'm playing house with this boy that I'm kind of into, but ignorantly into. So it was like being with that elder way back when, where I just couldn't wait to wake up and see him.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] But it wasn't like, I'm fighting off jumping him.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:12] Any sexual aggression? None whatsoever. There was only two moments where there was like, is this the awkward moment that people talk about when they're about to kiss for the first time? And I was there one moment. We were reading those message boards online, and there was, like, a fan site of gay men that liked us. But everyone had that, right. But there was these photoshopped pictures.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] So it's like, dude, there's a gay site of men who like us.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:36] I'd be like, oh, let me see. That's so weird. Yeah. So awkward, right? It's so bad. But long story short, there's one thing. They're like, I bet you right now there's, like, photoshopped pictures of us, like, kissing. But there was me with everyone in the show. There was like, that Everyone had, like. Everyone had their fan set of, like, I want these two people to hook up. It wasn't just exclusively us. And it was really funny because someone even said, right now, I bet you they're sitting next to each other, legs slightly touching, reading this, and it's gonna be very awkward for both of them.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] Boom.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:06] And you were like, music stopped on the playlist. Yeah. It was so cinematic, you know? And I'm like. And it was awkward as all heck. I could feel his knee was touching mine. And I'm like. And I'm like, the first thing that thought to me, like, God, put me here. Like, I'm. I'm deserving of this only in the sense that I'm choosing the right and so. And not Choosing the Benji, theoretically. So I. I'd be like, okay, good night.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] See you, bro.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:38] Bro hug, you know, and. And you would see, like. Like, he'd be like, okay, sure. So I'd go straight to bed and eventually ended up switching rooms because I didn't want to be around that, like, next to him in the same bed. So he would. There's a room of four. Four beds and one and two beds at the other. And I would be in the other room. But did you tell him?

John Dehlin [01:23:57] Did you say, hey, I'm switching?

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:59] Never.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] How did he know?

Benji Schwimmer [01:24:00] One day just my stuff was moved.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Was that kind of weird for him?

Benji Schwimmer [01:24:03] Probably, yeah. And then at one point, you know, they bring all the cast back. So even though, you know, some of us got eliminated, I saw him. We reunited. We were all putting our costumes on for the final opening number and everyone from the cast goes there. And he. Of course, we were sharing a dressing room and we decided to share a dressing room even though we didn't need to. Right. And so we're sharing a dressing room. And I think one of the producers who's gay, he saw it happening, like, throughout our rehearsals. He just knew that there was this vibe. Like he picked up on it pretty easily. And he always paired us up. Always, always. He just wanted it to happen. And I guess he said he used to work for the Osmonds. He knew about all about Mormon culture, so he was trying to get me out and quick. And I remember this is the day of the results show, right. So everyone's getting ready. It's all exciting, and I'm, like, nervous and exhausted. I went to the hospital that day for dehydration and I was spitting up and coughing up blood. It was bad. I was just ready to finish it. I didn't care what happened at this point. I didn't think I was going to win either because I had Travis, who was my partner from the week prior. I had Heidi, who's my dance partner, totally. And Dhonielle, who was my partner. So theoretically, I was the only boy that shared votes with all these people. So I knew I didn't make it when I made it to the finale. And then the fourth place girl was Natalie Fotopoulos, who was also my partner. So I felt as a partner dancer, I did my due diligence. All of my partners with the top placed partners on the show, I felt like that is the biggest accomplishment I've ever made.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] All your partners look good.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:33] Yeah. And that was my responsibility. I truly felt that. And, yeah, so I was Like, I'm good, I'm good. Fourth place. Here we go. I'm gonna go on tour. This is awesome. Exposure up the wazoo. So good. So we're in the dressing room, sharing the dressing room, and ironically, you know, we were put together by that producer. I knew it. And I'm putting on my tie, and all of a sudden he goes. He goes, oh, your ties on crooked. He's like, I got it. And he's adjusting my tie, right? And he's literally. At first, he's pulling the tie up and he's adjusting it, and then he's pulling the tie in closer to me. And at first, I was so spaced out, like, nervous about the results. And he wasn't that. It was just like, oh, my gosh. I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, I'm getting close. Oh, my gosh. Her lips are this close. Like, that's weird. This is awkward. And literally, like, I could feel, like, exchanging of breath. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. And this is the only moment where I'm like, I want to do you. You know? Like, it was one of those moments. And I'm like. I remember he was holding onto my tie, pulling me in. He wanted to go further, but he was waiting for me to, like, initiate. Yeah, to initiate and take the next step. And so I literally went like this. I grabbed his wrist. I'm like, let's say a prayer before we go on stage, literally. And you could tell he was just like, oh, okay, all right. And we did. We said a prayer and we went out. I'm like, I love you, buddy.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] You were just Mormoned up, man.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:59] Telling you, man.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Dang.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:02] Because, I mean, here you are for the first time in your life, exposed, well, presented with the opportunity to engage in male to male intimacy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:14] Yeah. Right where I cared about this person.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] But in that same day or week, I don't know when the results come out, but you're potentially to become the Mormon celebrity.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] For the year.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:27] And I looked at it as, like, my final trial. And I remember.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Yeah, it's like so many things coming to a head in an epic way. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:34] I ran to the fire exit, the fire stair exit. Right there. Right afterwards. Immediately afterwards. I'll see you. Love you. But I gotta go run and warm up. And I ran to the exit and I just knelt down in prayer and I just cried my eyes out.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] What did you say?

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:45] I just told Heavenly Father that I was sorry for even getting that close to temptation.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] There was part of you that wanted it or not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:51] Of course. I felt like I was in an enamored position with him, this kid. And I remember saying, you know, Satan must be really good because this feels awesome. And I don't feel bad doing it. I just feel like it would be an insult to you. I remember feeling that and being honest with heavenly Father at that moment, thinking, I don't feel like kissing him would be bad, but I feel like it's through my obedience thus far. And this was kind of my final trial. And I knew, I just said, I better win this dang thing now. Like, if I'm giving up on this right now, like, you know, it's one of things. Those things where I just felt, okay, there's this balance in the air, and I think I know the path that I need to choose. So I did. And two hours later, I won. Which is weird and awesome and weird and awkward and guilt ridden and I don't know, I think.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] How was Heidi about it?

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:43] Oh, beyond supportive. She was so cool about it.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] Was she heartbroken too?

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:46] No, she told me I was going to win.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] Really?

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:49] From the second. From the. From the second. Second week. She's like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna freaking win this thing. And not competitively speaking. She's like, you're gonna freaking win this, Benji. And I'm like, no, you are. I was always like, no, you are. I think you're gonna do it. And she was really hot at the time. She'd just done that. The bench piece, and she'd done a couple really good pieces.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] She was really good.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:10] So she had a great momentum. And I thought she could have gotten it. I thought Travis could have gotten it. The girls loved him. I thought Danielle definitely could have gotten it because she was the most dynamic and versatile performer there. And so. And I thought maybe she was the reason why I kept making it through each round because she carried me. So, you know. Yeah, I didn't think. It's like, I knew I was going to win for my destiny's sake, but I didn't think I actually was going to win. It's really weird how you can split your brain up in that way. Nevertheless, I did, and it was a very weird experience. Forever grateful, but very. It was a blur. And I remember flying that night. You know, the cast party was on and I couldn't go. I had to catch a red eye to De Regis and Kelly. And I remember that was the first time I saw any clips from the show. I decided not to watch myself because I would probably hate myself. And I did. I saw clips of the show, and I'm like, you don't like to watch yourself hate it.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] What?

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:04] You need to hear your voice, for instance.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:06] On a cell phone.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] Yeah. But your dancing's cool.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:09] No, no, at the time, it wasn't. I think my dancing is pretty cool now, but at the time, it was pretty terrible, in my opinion. I thought I was. There was moments that I had that were really fun and I was unique and I was entertaining. Entertaining in a breath of fresh air, entertaining all around. And I knew how to work tv. But I just felt like there was just so much talent with me in that cast that I didn't really deserve what I. The recognition that I was getting. But I almost. Almost always feel that way. There's this split personality where the perfectionistic dancer says, you suck, but there's that dedicated, driven dancer that says, you've worked harder than anyone. You will win this. And it's always this balance, but it's kind of a nice balance. I never feel like my head gets too big, but on the flip side, I never feel like I'm defeated all the way. So it works for me. It's worked thus far for 28 years.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] So you. So you were at Regis and Kathleen. What was the Kelly at the time? Regis and Kelly. Sorry, sorry. I love those. I love both of them. They're funny. So what was the celebrity tour you did?

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:08] I did 10 days of press. I was a guest weatherman for a national news thing. I was just messing around, like, dancing in the green screen and having fun, and I did that. I toured a couple Broadway things, did a couple things here and there. Got a.

John Dehlin [01:31:22] You liked Letterman or Leno or any of that?

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:24] Didn't do any of that. The show wasn't really. It was kind of competitive with them because it was a nighttime show, so they never really had us on at the time. Now they do because they know that they'll get a lot more ratings if you bring them onto your show because it's a popular thing now. But, no, I never did that. I did daytime stuff a little bit, but, you know, those were all just great. And they treated you great. But I also realized how temporary that all was. I always kept thinking in the back of my mind, I'm probably going to end up being like a dance teacher or something. Like, I'm not going to be very outwardly successful other than the dance thing. And this. This is going to die down. Like, this will be on for another two seasons. And then the dance craze as it comes in and out, every 10 years will die down, but I'll have a career and I'll be grateful for it. So I never thought I was going to be like living the life of luxury. And some people have. I've seen a couple people that even that didn't even win and they're just like, we are red carpet. Like, we are. We are everything. And I never felt that way. I was excited to pay a lot of tithing the next week. I thought it'd be kind of cool with a huge check. I'm like, doot, doot, doot, doot. It's my bishop. And kind of rubbed it in his face a little bit. And it was good and it was kind of neat. Maybe they built a stake center in Mexico from that. Who knows? But, you know, after that we went on tour. And tour was wonderful because it was just a chance to give back to the fans that couldn't come to our shows live. And it was just pandemonious. It was beautiful and so much fun. Behind the scenes, though, after having won that, that half of the group, it's like church and the world. 50, 50, get it. They're great and supportive and fun and half them don't. Half of them would hide my costumes. Half of them would put water where I would enter on a stage, yet the other half would be my friends and defend me. I mean, it was bad. Half of them would purposely take my cues on microphone entrances so that I would mess up my lines. There's a lot of vindictive behavior. And of course, it never was as bad as the good was, as being able to perform and sell out Madison Square Garden for two days straight. Having the fastest selling commercial dance tour in history to this day, I mean, that's pretty. That's way big for us. For dancers that don't make any money, they don't have insurance, they don't have unions that really help us in the way they should. It's pretty cool. Yeah. So tour happened and then tour ended and that was. That's when life really kind of flipped around and changed.

Bargaining With God and Seeking Acceptance

John Dehlin [01:33:40] Okay, so what, was there a bargain you made with God where if I win, I will, you know, never be gay or like, was there a bargain or what did winning mean to you in terms of God and your Mormonism and spirituality?

Benji Schwimmer [01:33:52] I just felt like if I were to have won, it was never like, I won't be gay. That was never a trade off, that I never played that card. But I did do this. I did say, you know, if you let me win this. I promise to use my talents for good. I promise to. You know, I think I can say this. My patriarchal blessing. It's kind of crazy, actually. It's one of the things that actually kept my testimony really strong for a very long time. It literally is in order where it says, you know, I'm born of this, born of that. And then my mission, I will love. And I'll continue my work traveling the world, and people around the world will know my face.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:26] And know that I'm a Mormon and for the rest of my life. And they will know that I am a man of God and that no matter what, even though time prohibits me from serving in regular callings, that the Lord sees it fit, that I have a calling to set an example wherever I go.

John Dehlin [01:34:41] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:43] So having that in the back of my mind as I'm on a national television show, that's now number one halfway through the season. I mean, that's not only prophecy come to truth. And not only this, but my patriarch, I just moved to Redlands. He didn't know me, didn't know I was a dancer, didn't tell him anything because I was a skeptic of that one. None of my family had ever gotten a patriarchal blessing. So I'm like, this seems a little weird, but I'll do it.

John Dehlin [01:35:05] Wow. I mean, that's almost too weird to be coincidental.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:08] It is a little too weird to be coincidental. And not only that, it says that people will see me everywhere I go and that I will constantly be in big crowds of people. People know who I am, and I'll continue that work throughout the rest of my life. So I always kind of took that. That I will be always doing what I'm doing. And I still kind of feel that way. I do feel that. Whether it's from a divine source or just my innermost person talking to me, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:35:30] But so in your mind, you weren't trying to un gay yourself in terms of, like, winning so that you could then marry a woman?

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:39] No, I never thought that there was going to be like, an un gay ifying thing, but I thought, you know what, if I have this. This little nest egg, I want a lot of money, Right. If I can save that, I will never have the added stress of money being an issue with my marriage to a wife because I figured, I learned the psychology reports that I read, seeing if money is an issue, and you already have SSA or same sex attraction or same gender attraction, or issues with Homosexuality in the relationship, it's already a bad thing. It's already a tough thing. It's very risky to survive in a marriage in the church. But if your finances are in order, which is obviously the biggest stress that most people have in most marriages, I can focus most of my energies into being faithful and showing fidelity towards my spouse. So I figured if I can remove the element that destroyed my family's marriage, maybe I can survive.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Okay, so you finished? So you think you can dance? Optimistic that you can find that woman?

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:30] I thought that was my ticket to survive in the church and to go to the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:36:34] So what happened?

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:35] Ah, okay, so had a couple of girlfriends, had a girl that we were going to get married at one point.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] And you would, would you respond to them physically?

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:45] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] So you're bisexual then? Or not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:50] Here's my belief.

John Dehlin [01:36:51] Educate us. Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:52] Kinsey scale. Right, Kinsey scale. For those that don't know, it's usually one to six.

John Dehlin [01:36:56] Zero.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:57] Sorry, zero to six. Zero. Being completely heterosexual. Six. Being completely homosexual. In my life I have gone like this. Okay, so sometimes I'm leaning towards that. Six. I've never been a six. Okay, right. But I've never been.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Meaning you've always had some attraction to women.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:15] Meaning always to men, but some attraction.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] I'm saying never being a six means that you've always had at least some attraction. Yes, to women.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:22] At least in a minimal sense.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:23] A physical, carnal attraction to women. Yes. So making out with my girls. My girls. That sounds polygamist and big love esque. I'm sorry, but like making out girlfriends, kissing, holding hands, for some reason it would arouse me so quickly. Okay, so I knew that.

John Dehlin [01:37:39] So what's the problem?

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:39] Chemistry is great. Well, that's what every bishop and every psychologist.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] I'm playing a role.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:43] Thank you, Mr. Psychology Doctor.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] I don't mean it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:47] I know. So what's the problem? Well, that's a good hope. That's a sign. The problem is that you're all set. Yeah, you're all set. Not a big deal. Just avoid the other voice. Well, sometimes when someone's subtly talking to you and you have someone on a megaphone, the difference is startling. And the relationships I had, I've never cheated, never. Never had a wandering eye, never dealt with issues of pornography during those times. I've a true blue Mormon, like you said, a nerd in all senses of the word. With this. The last girl that I dated, someone after soothing, we met on really crazy awesome terms to make a Long story short, something tragic happened within our relationship that happened mostly to her, but also to me. And it. Two months into it, I knew I was falling in love with her. I really thought, this is the girl I'm going to marry. I never felt a huge confirmation, but I just kind of felt like it was never like a no, right. And I usually felt like that was the case with most girls that I dated. Like, in a couple weeks, I kind of grow tired of it and lose that kinetic and physical chemical attraction to them. But with this one, it never did. Never at all. She's beautiful and wonderful and such a great person. And we're still friends to this day. Two months into it, I wrote her a long letter saying, listen, I told her everything. I told her that I was attracted to men that I'd never really experimented on, other than when I was, like, a little boy before my baptism. And it's something that I plan on fighting the rest of my life. And I want to fight it with her if she was willing to do it. And I had signed myself up for extra counseling sessions. I was doing evergreen workbooks, which were interesting, and, you know, never once felt weird with my masculinity. So I felt playing the role of boyfriend was fine. You know, even to this day, I feel completely emasculated holding another man's hand. Not demasculated. Is that a word? I guess it is. I've always felt like a man, like a dude, always. And that's never been an issue. Maybe it's because I've been a dancer all my life. I've always been the leader. I don't know if it's that or not, but it's just me. It's just my being, my makeup. But that Kinsey scale changes and it fluctuates, but it's always leaning on the side of six rather than zero. Especially when I finally started admitting things about myself. And it became prevalent well after said tragedy I don't really want to get into, but it was deeply personal for the both of us, and it shook both of our foundations greatly, to the point she needed three months to travel the world alone. And I locked myself in a room and didn't eat and felt very depressed about. I thought I lost my eternal family again. Not with my parents, but with my own. And I. I mean, I had it this close. We were this close to getting married. And I felt like I. I felt. In a weird sort of way, I put all of my eggs into that last basket. Like whatever mustered courage I had left Mind you, I'm traveling every weekend. But because of my so youo Think youk Can Dance celebrity status as a dancer, in my contracts, I would put a stipulation. I will be there Friday, Saturday, Sunday, fly home Monday. But I need three hours every Sunday off. And I would go, even if it was a hundred dollar taxi ride to the nearest stakes in our building. I would go to church for at least sacrament meeting.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] What year around. What year is this?

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:02] I won 2006. I toured throughout to the end. So 2000, 2007, 2008.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] That's when you fell in love with this woman. Thought it was gonna happen.

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:09] 2007. Yeah. And every week I was in China or somewhere and I'd find a family group meeting of Singapore. I remember going to these places and it was awesome because it was the prophecy fulfilled. I would go there and literally people would like, they would notice you. And I never expected that because it's one thing to get dance enthusiasts of a TV show to scream your name, but walking down a street and then being recognized, it's a new world and it's very intrusive too. And I actually became much more of a recluse, which was probably a bad thing because I'm already battling with so many inner demons. The fact that I'm shutting out even more people now and building tighter walls, I think kind of became my undoing as to why I finally kind of cut things.

John Dehlin [01:41:53] Did the church ever try and like, I don't want to say co opt or reach out, but I mean, were you ever sort of on the circuit for like.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:01] Representing the church?

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:02] Yes, but never from leaders of the church, rather from like media people of the church.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] So what would they.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:08] So like, you know, the I'm a Mormon messages, or before it was the I'm a Mormon messages, it was just like Mormon messages, I think, or whatever. They wanted me to do one. A lot of Mormon movie directors asked me to do like, like Mormon themed films, you know, and this and that. And I thought that was kind of cool. But I really, I was so busy. I never could focus three months to film a movie and not do anything else at the time. So I was really focused. Actually my first year, other than dating this girl, I was actually more concerned because the next year I had to go back and perform on so youo Think youk Can Dance as the alumni winner. And I felt so undeserving that I took almost a whole year off of work. I made a lot of money, you know, from winning that show. And I Decided to put it to good use.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] More than just 100,000.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:53] Yeah. Because they gave me this, a really cool car that I just cashed out and sold back to the buyer, the dealer, which actually paid for my taxes. They mutilate us in the taxes there, especially in California. But to make a long story short, I traveled the world and I trained. I trained in all these dances that I felt inferior in. Came back a year later and I'm hitting six pirouettes and I'm.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Is this just for one performance?

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:15] No, I just thought that that was.

John Dehlin [01:43:17] Were you on the show multiple times?

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:19] No, it was. It wasn't just that. But I knew that I was coming back in a year. It's kind of like trying to get fit for your high school reunion, shedding those pounds and fitting into your old whatever. And it was more that. It was more like, I want to come back and prove everyone wrong. Because, you know, only maybe a fourth of the population of this group, maybe a little more than. Obviously a little bit more than the fourth voted for me. The rest probably hated me and resent me right now. And I'm going to in. In a group of sharks right now.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] But when they brought you back, was it for multiple shows or just for a single show?

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:48] Just to perform. It's always the first inaugural performance. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:52] So I decided to go out there and I did a whole new solo. I did my thing still and I was running around the stage and doing my slides and kicks and all that, but I also then dropping my pants on national flag day or national. Yeah, it was flag day.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Okay. Was that not on the season two?

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:07] That was season three when you dropped your pants? Yeah, yeah. I remember thinking, sounds bad, but it really wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] But yeah, yeah, it was like you had like the American flag.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:15] I'm a patriotic person. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] But I'm thinking Mormon boy drops his pants, American flag underwear.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:24] Well, think about this. Okay. First, my pants were coming off, so I said, let's just do it. But that was a last minute decision too, where I just improvised it kind of. But I had them on just in case anyways, if I wanted to, I had options. But long story short, I performed. The song was called La Americana. I had like red gloves and like a blue striped sparkly tie. And I was in my element, you know, I was doing that. But I was also a lot better of a dancer, you know, in the other elements. So I showed. I showed flexibility and I showed pirouettes and I showed a little bit more technique, even though I'm A lot better than I was then. Now I did work my butt. You know, that starving artist never stopped in me. And to prove other people wrong, I wanted to convince the other three fourths of the crowd that didn't vote for me that they had it wrong.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I'm just gonna tell you that when you did that number and you dropped your pants, I turned to my family and I said, he's gay.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:19] I did awesome.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] I did. And my daughters are like, huh, huh? Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, we talked about that stuff.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:25] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] But they had made a connection with you by that point.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:29] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] So they're like, no, dad. No, dad, shut up.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] He's like, there you go again, dad.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:34] He's a poster child. You and your theories.

John Dehlin [01:45:37] You're always making things complicated, dad.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:39] It's funny, though, because it wasn't about that. The idea was, is I kind of wanted to break free from that. I am this perfect person. I didn't want to have that insinuated. And also, I watched the whole season. I got really depressed about it, so. And I looked at it and I just got really down on myself because I was a noob. I was a total, like, goober. And I am. But I also say a cuss word every now and then or also speak my mind that I'm very truthful. And as a teacher, I'm very authoritative in that sense. So I just felt a little pansied seeing me on that season. And I'm like, whoa.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] You felt unworthy or just.

Benji Schwimmer [01:46:17] I felt.

John Dehlin [01:46:18] Felt a little.

Benji Schwimmer [01:46:18] I felt a little. Not me. Because they edit certain things to show the role that you're theoretically casted in. You know, what they presented as you. And I had live TV right there in my hand, and I'm like, let me give a little edge. You know why? Because I don't think this is a big deal. Because BYU swimmers, they'll wear Speedos. Mine were down to here, and they were American flag. And I made sure I wore two of the things of underwear to make sure there was any. No crevassing whatsoever. Nothing you could zoom in on. So I was fine. Right. But I also. What was interesting, I thought it was going to be comical because it was national. I think it was National Flag Day or something like that, or President's Day. But I did. I did like. I think I did, like, 10 pirouettes prior to that to show my superior technique. Right? Like, oh, look at him go. I turn, turn, turn. That's what we do when we practice. Turn. Sorry. So I Was turning and turning and turning and turning and turning and turning and turning, turning and literally dropped my pants on a dime, right? And I thought it was like, look, I can still be a goofball, but dammit, I just did like an unbelievable feat. And they were outside pirouettes to the left, which most people can't do. So I was happy about that. I was like, yeah, I did a great job. And you saw like half the audience go like, whoa. I remember I saw Nigel just do this. Like, oh, my.

John Dehlin [01:47:35] You didn't know you were going to do it?

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:37] No one knew that I was going to do it.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] Wow.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:39] For my dress rehearsal, I just finished with a turn.

John Dehlin [01:47:41] Was he glad?

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:42] Oh, he loved it.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] Okay. I thought he would love it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:43] Oh, it's, it's ratings.

John Dehlin [01:47:44] But in my mind it was like, oh, he's had a year. Fame's gotten to his head.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:48] That's what most people took it as

John Dehlin [01:47:50] probably, you know, do drugs and like had the party lifestyle.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:53] Everyone said that. In fact, again, I got hate email finally.

John Dehlin [01:47:56] And that's not true, though.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:57] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:47:58] So you weren't partied up by the. At that point or ever? I'm not saying you ever have been.

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:02] Never to this day. I've never done a drug in my life, John. Never done anything, any illegal activity. I've never participated in. Never. And I've never had a sip of coffee in my Life. Still at 28, so. Or maybe by accident, maybe one time, but that's about it. And you know, I haven't either. Rock on. Fist bump. Yeah. Okay, so no homo. So, yeah, so I ended up, I ended up doing that performance and I got all this, this hate email. But at the time, my skin got a little bit thicker and I also wanted people to realize that I was a human being. I wasn't this perfect poster child.

John Dehlin [01:48:37] You were uncomfortable with the, with the role, yes, but also with the role that they had. The picture they had painted of you.

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:43] Yeah, I was very uncomfortable with it because all of my friends know I'd rather. Instead of like watching ballet performance or working in a science notebook, I'd rather go to a Jay Z concert and listen to gangsters.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] But the, but the role was, it was clean cut, happy, fun, nerd, goofy guy. Yeah, that's how you've painted yourself here a little bit. Yeah. But. So what was.

Benji Schwimmer [01:49:05] But I'm also saying, damn it, an ass. And I want to do you. And I almost felt like, but you weren't living that. I also. But I felt like I was projecting that I was. I was like a unification. Like, I became a eunuch, theoretically. Like, I kendalled myself a little bit. Like, there was no element of me being a man or a being. And at the time, I just recently broken up with a girlfriend prior to the girl that I was really involved with. That happened right after the show, actually. And because of that, I felt a little sense of, mmm, I'm a man. I make mistakes. And I felt like that this is the last thing that I can say. I'm fantastic on the stage. I'm joyous. Thank you. For the moment. But I'm also a human being, and I felt that was important for me to convey as much as I become a better dancer.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Was it to keep people from being disillusioned if you ever.

Benji Schwimmer [01:49:53] Yes. If I ever did anything bad? No, it wasn't that. But there were times where I'd walk down a hallway or I found my wiener dog of 17 years. I was in an airport, Dallas airport, and this girl comes out. I'm crying my eyes. I just found out she was killed. 17 years. That's like my sister, you know? And I'm bawling my eyes out. She's like, excuse me, can I have a picture on my phone crying in an airport? And I went, no, I'm sorry. And she cussed me out and said, famous changed you and this and that. So that voice, I never took much heed to, and I never did that. I never felt that, like. I decided to come out of retirement from swing dancing, wanted to start dancing again, competing, because it humbled me. It made me work hard. I didn't care about the glitz and glamour of it all. I didn't move to la. I. I moved back to my hometown. I really kept it small. I really wanted that.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] Jenny from the block.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:44] I am Jenny from the Bronx.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] The block, the Bronx.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:49] Very much not like her, but anyway, so, you know, yeah, it was a lot of that. I was trying to show that I was imperfect because I felt like maybe I painted a picture of too much perfection.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:18] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

Part Three Introduction and Reparative Therapy

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 352

John Dehlin [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3. Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org so were you. You mentioned Evergreen Workbooks. Some of my listeners may or may not know that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:34] Yeah. For the.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Evergreen. Is the church's unofficially endorsed support group supported?

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:42] Yeah, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] I've been told they're financially supported by the church from a pretty reliable source, at least partly.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] But it's sort of a. It's a support group that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:54] And again, so is North. Right.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] So, I mean, yeah, but. But in theory, what I understand is that it's sort of like if you're gay and if you're Mormon, you want to try and marry a woman and make it work.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:05] If you're male, you want to change your sexual identity. Yeah, it's very. Based on change.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] They can. What do they provide? Tell us about.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:11] They provide workbooks.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Did you go to Evergreen? Did you?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:14] Like. I never would show my face at a conference because I was also that famous Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] So you were closeted?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:18] Completely.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] But you. Okay, I had.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:20] I had. When I was 17, I started an online group called LDS Teens with SA and it became this anonymous support group on Yahoo groups. At the time, that was kind of a big thing, and I figured there was nothing else. It was always guys saying it's okay to be gay. It was never like this for those of us that want to stay in the church or serve a mission or get married to a girl. And then I got picked up by a friend of mine who had ties with Evergreen, and so he would sneak me the books and sneak me everything under his name, and I kind of got connected with an inner medium, basically.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] And what were you hoping to do?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:54] Change my sexual identity.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] So how would ever.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:58] After I went through one book, I just knew that wasn't gonna happen.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] What would the book tell you to do or how.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:02] It was the same nonsense about, you know, finding your masculinity again, finding positive relation, building positive male relationships with guys that are healthy and not sexual, and, you know, learning how to, like, hold one another and cuddle one another, which I thought was so gay and. And so stupid. Can you just hold me? And that's gonna make me not want to have sex with you later on. I mean, then why does the church say you shouldn't be cuddling? In bed. You shouldn't spoon before you're married because spooning leads to forking, let's be honest. And so I felt like that was just so counterproductive for me. And I thought, did you try it for a bit? I did, I did. I joined a couple of support groups. I came out to a very select few group of people that were either in particular married ones because I figured, like, they were the safest ones to deal with.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Married gay men, Mormon.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:48] Married gay men, Mormon Y to women and that have kids and had callings that were actively, you know, in good standing for the church. Temple worthy. I felt like that was important because if I were to connect with a single man, I worried that lines would be crossed again or that feeling like I had with that missionary companion would kind of come back. And so I did that. I worked through those workbooks. And the funny thing was, is during that time while I was. This is when I was single, I was doing this. I felt more gayer through them because it was constantly on my mind because I was constantly trying to analyze why I was reacting the way that I was. And it was in the moments where I was just me that I felt less of it as the big identifier in my life. And it's funny.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] So trying to change it amplifies it,

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:31] you're saying completely for me, and I'm not speaking for on behalf of anyone else, because I believe everyone has their own path to choose. And I respect that 100%, wholeheartedly. But for me, yeah, I felt so gayer, I started questioning, well, maybe I am. Maybe I'm effeminate, you know, like, maybe I have a lisp when I talk, or maybe I have the bent wrist all the time. Like, I started thinking things like that. Or maybe I'm not connected with sports yet. I'm thinking, I know every stat from Kobe Bryant there is from the beginning of his career. So not like that validates masculinity, but maybe activities that are masculine because they would say, do you find yourself liking the arts more than you like sports? Well, I'm a professional dancer, for crying out loud, you know, so that doesn't make sense because it's my profession, but it's not a pastime. My pastimes were toilet papering my friends houses and making out girls. So it didn't make a lot of sense to me. I just didn't identify with that. Like, do you have an overbearing mother and a distant father? Well, my dad traveled a lot. My mom has an opinion but on the flip side, my dad's very much of an influence in my life too.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] He probably has opinions too.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:36] He definitely has opinions too. And they fight all the time, so it's not like I saw one winning and not the other way. So I never felt.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] What about all that Jacuzzi experience?

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:47] Yeah, but that's something that I'd felt prior to that. Like, I'd always been engaged in people and in things and in the body. And as a dancer, we're engaged in that. Like, I can be turned on by a girl or a boy by the way they move their fingertip in a dance movement. And it's like, ugh, that's beautiful. I love you for your ankles. You know what I mean? Like, it's that simple. It's not like, oh, boom, boom, boom. It has nothing to do with that. Like, that to me, like, naked bodies don't turn. That's probably why I didn't have, like, issues. I was dating girls, like, looking pornography because the naked body, like, I almost saw every day and it was on me every day. And I was lifting people and we were sweating around each other. And dances are very physical, affectionate people in a non sexual way, let alone anything else.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Yeah, as you're watching it and you, like see your hand go along their chest, you're like, wow, I wonder if that's arousing or I wonder how they, you know, not at all. I wonder if they're having sex, you know, behind the scenes.

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:40] To me it's a different thing because you're in a different sphere of reality at the time. Again, you're living in that moment and hopefully the genius of dance is inspiring you in that moment. So for me, I could be motorboating someone and I'm thinking, how do I connect the axis of my cheekbone to her sternum? Like, I think about what's motorboating, boobs and face shaking. I was saying that something is as sexually aggressive as that or even like booty dancing or something at a club. And I'm not thinking about are parts hitting parts here, here. I'm thinking about how can I base my hip ratio in alignment with this? Or I'm hearing the music and I'm trying to move my body in that realm. It's not about trying to get some. Like, dance clubs I never understood. And church dances I never understood because it was always about finding a mate or getting some that night. And I'm like, I'm seeing colors. I'm not even seeing a person in front of me. When I'm dancing half the time, it just doesn't. Doesn't call me out in that sense. So I couldn't relate with any of those workbooks. I couldn't relate with the talks that were given. It bothered me sometimes. I have a little bone to pick with you. This is gonna sound so bad. I'm gonna say this right now.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Bring it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:53] Sometimes. Sometimes the last thing I want to hear is a gay men's chorus. All right, you know what? Let's bring some rock music to a gay Mormon story circling the wagons conference. Let's do something different. Or let's not make it so show tuny. Like, it's great. And I think, you know, it's gonna attract most of the gays. But for me, not my cup of tea. Let's have a softball game afterwards. Not to try and realign our masculinity, but let's make fun of ourselves for running with a swishy thing, you know, like. Or let's break a nail and cry about it. Like, enjoy who you are, you know? And so I never felt connected with it, but I kept trying. And then finally I met this girl.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Did you go to a therapist to do actual repair?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:35] I did. I did try reparative therapy.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] What was that like? What do they do?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:38] You know what the funny thing was, is that they never addressed my homosexual desires. It was always about my relationship with my family.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] So very psychodynamic. Freud.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:48] Completely Freud. Yeah. And because of that, I never felt. I mean, I felt like my relationships with my family were better. My communication skills, my boundaries, feeling like I'm not a part of the savior complex or being caught in the middle of things. Like, I did learn a lot of dynamics that have really helped me, you know, but while those things were repaired, I never felt like that was the cause of me being gay. Like, I felt like this is something that I chose in the pre existence. I felt like this is before birth or at birth. Not there was a trigger that happened in my life or I was molested or something else happened that caused any of this. I never felt that. Never had that experience, so. Never. No, it didn't work for me. And though I never felt like that was my end, all I felt like, okay, so rather than trying to change me, maybe I just need to change my perspective and learn how to deal with this. So coping mechanisms for what I really worked with. And I found doing that with. Not many therapists were really, really willing to do that. A lot of them thought it's either repair to therapy. They sold reparative therapy a lot. The church sold reparative therapy a lot.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Were people making money off of that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:00] Yeah. Oh, for show, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] Selling hope, basically.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:05] Selling. Yeah. I mean, it's a pyramid scheme as far as I'm concerned, you know. And recommend your friends that are going through this too. Okay. Recommend your friends that are in theater and that dance.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] So is there a whole culture around this?

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:22] Yeah, let's be honest, I think I'd have to play on this. But before we get to that culture, because I will explore that.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:32] I think to kind of put this in order, this is how things have happened. There is a culture, but I didn't find out about this culture until after things ended with me in this rule. And so I think I need to address that really quick. So during this time when there was a really bad tragedy that happened, I mean, of the utmost worth, there was a death between us. And that's as far as I'm allowed to say. I kind of have a blessing from her to talk some details and some that aren't. And I feel like we're just going to hold that sacred to us. But it was debilitating, really debilitating. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, just debilitating. And I became a numb person. And I believe she did too. She was lost and with all reason, all completely understandable. But it also broke a lot of ties that we had with one another through the death of this person that we shared close love with. And because of that, I think the issues with my same sex attraction issues became this paranoia for her because someone that was really close to her, theoretically through death, abandoned her. And she was very adamant, you know, will you abandon me? You know, we would go on a date at a movie theater and a good looking couple, straight couple would walk by us holding hand in hand. And it's actually kind of true. She would look at me, she's like, which one are you looking at? And this whole paranoia thing before. And it would be like, so do you think he's cute? It'd be like, yeah, he's kind of cute. And it would be okay because I'm holding onto my girl's hand and I love her and I was dedicated to her and I was faithful to her. But afterwards it was like, are you looking at him or her or both? She's like, wow, I have to worry about everyone being a temptation to you. And it was kind of true. I don't think she could handle it. I don't think at that time in the trauma that she suffered. She could have handled it. And you know what? At that time, honestly, and I very rarely think I've admitted this, but I couldn't handle it either. I think I needed a change. And so we ended things mutually. It was tragic, but we needed to do it and we both know it. And it's all for the best. She's doing wonderful. She's happily married to a great, great guy. And I'm super happy for her and for her happiness. And we don't talk very often, but we still do talk. And she. We have a very close kinship with one another. Again, very kindred spirit thing between the two of us. But I think after that, I think everyone knew about. We were a public relationship. People loved us together, our families loved one another. We bent over backwards. We went through this death thing that people thought was going to bring us closer. And the way we met was just beautiful and almost picturesque. And everyone just knew that we were going to be dressed in white soon enough. And when that ended, a part of me having that hope completely died. I thought I lost the love of my life. I really did. I thought I lost my eternal companion. That's a better way to put it.

Relationships, Marriage Hopes, and Doubt

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Looking back now, if you guys had gotten married, do you think you would have just been straight Benji for the rest of your life? I mean, what if it had happened?

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:41] I think. Well, I don't know if I would have been straight Benji. I would have been faithful to my wife. I think I could have done it. I think I would have been miserable and I think she would have been miserable. And sadly, because of the whole idea of having the eternal perspective and all is well and we might die through this journey and our feet might freeze in cold waters and we might starve from scurvy or whatever, we know that there is the highest great of the celestial kingdom awaiting us. And that would have carried you through. Maybe. Maybe I know for a fact I would never have cheated on her.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] But right now you're not. Are you looking back thinking, why I wish we could have done it?

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:19] No.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:19] Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] So let's keep going.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:21] Not in the slightest.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:22] It was difficult, but probably the biggest blessing I had had since my mission. More than 100 and something. Thousand dollars and more than all these other things. And subsequently, right after that, I decided to buy a house because I thought, well, I think it was my way of compensating for not having a girl. I think maybe if I can buy the house, that someone will like it and I could immediately move in with A girl get married quick and you know, get married and go to temple. This and that, that was my last ditch effort, was buying this house. And unfortunately through a series of very, very bad events, I lost my life savings. So and this is, mind you, after working endorsements, working on big TV projects, A lot of money, a lot of money for me. Anyways, I lost everything. I was in the zero right after I paid for a house that I had a really bad mortgage on. I was gonna have to pay it out the butt for a year, but I could refinance because I was a first time buyer. And anyways, the whole California like crash happened like two days after I bought the place. February 8th, I think I bought the place and it crashed the truck.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] 2008.

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:31] Yeah. So lost that was. Broken up with my girl. I hit rock bottom. I mean it was pretty bad. And I literally was working out and I figured, well, I'm not going to be dating girls, so I might as well just start working again and filling in my head not dating girls.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Why?

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:48] Because I felt like the sense of I couldn't access that. Partly because part of it was I'm kind of a pseudo celebrity in the Mormon world, especially the single adult Mormon world. And every time I would go there I would question if these girls really liked me or liked the idea. And there were a couple that I knew for a fact just liked me for the idea. I thought, wow, this girl's really pretty and she actually likes me. This is really cool. I'm attracted to her. Woohoo, good hope possibilities. And then I find out that I would hear her in a phone call talking to a friend of mine who had said she was just talking about how she can't wait to have the red carpet wedding and have E film it. And I'm like inviting Brad and Angelina to the wedding and I'm like, I'm a dancer. Like I still drive the same crappy car that I drove before. I still do. Like I'm not a car person. So I mean that's a gay thing about me too, but so no, gays are car people. What am I talking about? They all have their little convertibles and all that. I'm not that kind of gay, I guess, but so yeah, I digress. But after that happened, I hit rock bottom. I felt really vulnerable and weak. And it was shortly thereafter that I just decided to work a lot. I had to save up money to pay for this mortgage. I didn't have a savings. I was screwed. I mean I was really in a bad place and I lost the two roommates that were going to help sublease in a room and help pay for this mortgage. They left. One was getting married in the church and the other one just decided to move to Hollywood. And I just couldn't do it. Like I was literally maybe home four days out of the month. And it was depressing as all hell because I was always on the road. So I couldn't date a girl even for that reason. Just because I was so busy and lack of trust and the fact that I didn't want to date girls. I was so burned by doing everything right, John, and always choosing the rights and feeling like I would be blessed for it. And I guess I said, you know, is me being blessed for winning a TV show? Like I didn't sell my soul, you know, like I'm still doing the right thing but all is going to hell. And I'm thinking am I job? Then again, I was a Book of Mormon person more than anything. So when I read the Book of Mormon, like you prospered in the land if you were righteous. The Book of Mormon is very cut and dry about that. I mean there was very rarely a time when they talked about any discussions or dissensions or apostasies or destruction of the land of the Lamanites would destroy them when they were doing good. And I felt like I was living like those good Nephites in the earlier parts of the Book of Mormon. And yet I was losing everything and I had the best intentions behind it. And so on my travels I ended up meeting a boy that I'd known for a very long time. And I knew that he didn't go on his mission. And I found out through the grapevine that day it was because he was possibly gay but decided to stay in the church. And I thought that's really admirable. Maybe I'll come out to somebody for the first time. Lo and behold, we were all at dinner after this big dance gig and we kind of met up and there was like this weird flirtatious vibe between us. But again I'm thinking we're friends, but no. And we kind of just grew crazy of each other. He was still active, I was still active. And six months later of just this flirting back and forth, we decided to start kind of a relationship. I told my bishop about it. First thing I did, I hadn't even kissed him yet. And we were going to have a non sexual, Mormon, gay, homosexual, active, Mormon relationship, temple worthy relationship. Sweet, right? So alternative.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Awesome.

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:20] Yeah. And so, you know, at the time there was these, like, pro gay things about changing. I hated that. It didn't work for me. There are these. You're already married and dealing with it. I didn't resonate with that. It didn't connect with me. Or there are the affirmation side of things. They're like, it's okay to be gay. Let's change the face of the church rather than having them change us and destroying us in the process and us jumping off a bridge or putting a gun to our heads.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] What did you think of that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:45] I thought they were extremists and I was scared of them at the time. I think they're awesome now for the most part. But again, sometimes we have to have these civil rights marches. Sometimes we have to chain ourselves up to post to get things to be heard. And I get that now. But I didn't get that then. So I was afraid of affirmation, which is for those of us that know, it's like this gay and lesbian Mormon alliance and pro gay.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] And again, the evergreen stuff, you were just didn't think it was.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:13] I thought it was a bunch of bs And I didn't know anybody that actually got anything from it other than some people found a new, newly renounced, pronounced sense of, like, masculinity within themselves. And they found that that was really good. So I like this idea of like, maybe I need to have my own plan of salvation here. And I'm really in love with this guy and he loves me and we're good about it. We get with the church together. Like, we would give each other back rubs in sacrament. But a lot of guys did that that were single in singles words, you know, they were like, oh, brother, can we put your arm around you? There'd be times we'd have, like, our scripture's right here and his thigh was right there. We were like holding pinkies in sacrament meeting, you know. But I never felt bad because I never felt like I was committing a sin. You know, the sin was, it's not a sin to be gay. And that was still very pronounced in the church at the time. Like, it's not a sin to be gay. It's a sin to have, you know, gay sexual relations in and out of a marriage. Now, obviously you couldn't get married, so I'm thinking, well, maybe we'll just be friends forever, special boyfriends forever. And that was my only hope at the time. And it was funny because, you know, there would be moments where we would get really tempted and almost cross the line and we'd feel guilty and I would sleep on the floor that night. We'd slept in the same bed a lot of the times, but we had a very loving relationship for the most part. It was chaotic because there was always this, you know, one step closer, you're now a relationship that's not protected and the spirit won't be there. We had spiritual moments together. We loved going to church together. Temple, he wasn't temple worthy or he wasn't endowed rather, but he was taking the sacrament, you know. And so it was good for the most part. And then to fast forward, I told my bishop, I said, what about kissing? And he even told me a story, I guess about how one of the prophets was dying in a bed and kissed. I forget this. I think it was Ezra Taft Benson or one of the older apostles that prophets that was saying the story. But he saw one prophet kiss another prophet on the lips and he said it was beautiful. He said he saw that was the pure meaning of charity. And so he was, he was re narrating this story. My bishop actually at the time, and I've had some really kick butt bishops, they're awesome. And he told me, he's like, Benji, when you kiss this kid, do you feel love or lust? And at the time we'd only been like pecking, you know, it was just like, I, I adore the poop out of you. You're awesome. And I felt like it was good. I could honestly tell him that it was not from a lustful perspective. And then it's playing by fire and it really is living in that tempting zone. We're spooning, we're cuddling, and we're on our own. Doors are closed and it's like the whole anti BYU curfew thing going on. And he didn't go to BYU at the time, but so it was one of those things where we played with fire a little bit. There were moments where we pushed the boundaries and I felt like there were some things that I needed to do that were meant for repentance and confessing to a bishop. And that's all I feel I'll indel that much. So I told the bishop about that and I felt bad and I ended up breaking things off after 18 months of off and on loving each other. It was a long time. Ish. Maybe a little less than that.

Coming Out and a Crisis of Faith

John Dehlin [00:22:29] So we're into 2010 by now.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:35] Yeah. No, because 2008 was when 2009. Yeah, it was 2009 when we ended July 2009.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:42] Yeah. And you know My parents knew at the end of our relationship. I came up to my family,

John Dehlin [00:22:52] but

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:52] think about how easy it is to come out to your family. And you're like, guess what? I'm dealing with the gay thing. But I'm fighting it. I have a temple recommend. It is the easiest thing to come out to your parents and say, I'm dealing with this, but I'm fighting it. You know, it's like this great consolation prize for all of them. And I never had to just say, no, I'm this, you know. And so I came up to a couple people, select few, and they were really cool with it for the most part. My mom cried because she's like, I just wish you wouldn't have been so quiet about this for so long. We had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] How was Lacey?

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:24] Lacey was the first person I told, second person I told. And she. She didn't care. She's like, I love you either way. I didn't think so. I didn't believe that. I thought you truly were into like your fiance's and your girlfriends. And I'm like, I was, but I'm more gay than not. And so pick a team, you know? And she was. She was cool with it. She was like, that's kind of cool. I've always wanted a gay brother, so let's enjoy this. I don't think for one thing that we're going to get like mani pedis together or anything like that. It ain't changing, but I love her. And, yeah, so that was it. I mean, that was about it. That was the extent. And when we broke up, I went through. I didn't have to go through a repentance process even after confessing things that happened, but I felt unworthy to take the sacrament. My bishop's like, no, you can take the sacrament. I'm like, nope. Coming from, like the cleanest of cleanest track records, that white handbook, and thinking that all I have to do is just take the sacrament. Nope, didn't think so. I was too hard on myself. That perfectionistic side. Even though it's very anti atonement and very anti faith in the atonement of Christ, I still felt unworthy. Personally, I did not feel like I was ready to take the sacrament. And I remember continuing on that path for a while. And off and on I felt like I crossed the line with other people that I'd met. But I was always going to church, never failed. The very first time I was on a business trip and I went to a sacrament meeting. And I remember literally the Whole ward. It was at a dance competition in a very big Mormon community outside of Utah, actually. And, like, half the dance competition was there that day. And I'm sitting in the overflow in the back. And I remember that sacrament tray was passed, and I had to deny it. Everybody was looking at me. This isn't like what I was feeling or an anxiety thing. Like, all the kids were trying to see, you know, if you were worthy to take the sacrament, if I was worthy to take the sacrament, if they could look up to me or not. And I remember that being such a humbling experience. And I just bowed my head and just cried. I mean, I couldn't. I just wept the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] You didn't take it?

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:33] No, no. He would know. I knew in the end. I've had a lot of people judge me, a lot of Mormons judge me. And I remember, actually one girl that day at the end of that competition, we sign autographs and we take pictures of the kids, and it's really fun. And one mother came up to me and she grabbed my hand, and she's like, I am so proud of you for your example. She's like, I saw you at church today. And she's like, I just thought that was really admirable. And I'm like, that's awesome. But on the flip side, two people later, they would have me take. I was the only member of the church in this tour of dancers, and yet they refused. They refused to take a picture with me. The Mormons grabbed her daughter. You will not take a picture with him. And we walked away.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] Because she knew you hadn't taken the sacrament.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:18] Yeah. So it's kind of a funny, again, that 5050 balance.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] And this is because you had messed around with some of your relationships.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:27] Yeah. And I felt personally more guilty for that, even though I'd already confessed all this stuff. Like, it wasn't that I was holding on to sins and hadn't confessed them. I was. I had a very great open dialogue with all of my bishops, always. I've never lied to my bishops. Been very upfront.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] But you didn't do anything that would get you excommunicated.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:42] No, but I felt like maybe I'm already on the road to apostasy.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Just petting stuff.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I never had sex or I didn't go that far. And. Yeah. And then fast forward, and I felt like I was being really worthy again. I felt like I was really living my life well. I felt like I could start taking the sacrament again, but I wasn't ready to go back to the temple. And so I started taking the sacrament again and I got a calling and it was awesome. And I was traveling a lot. I have permission to share a sacrifice story from an ex of mine and I think this is going to tie into the end of this Mormon story of mine and I think it's important to talk about if that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] You talked about a period of time where you were just alone in your house.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:34] That's coming up.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Okay. I want to make sure we don't miss that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:36] I want to make sure, yes, it's going to get into that. Long story short, through literally miraculous circumstances and reasons, I believe, and I truly believe that things that I can't explain, I like to call it supernatural in that sense when I just can't explain it. It's not how the world works. But I met a boy and I'd been praying, lord, do I kill myself now that I'm worthy again? Do I?

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Because then you what, in your twisted logic, you'd be worthy to die.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:07] Yeah. Is this my altar? You know, am I going to be putting myself up to. To sacrifice that? Because in the future I know that it's not going to work out or because I know I'll get so depressed that I'm probably going to end up just pulling the trigger anyways. I prayed every day that I was worthy on a flight because I fly so much at least twice a week. I prayed that the plane would crash while I was worthy. Every day on my mission, I prayed that I would die on my mission. When I had that accident at my hospital, I'm thinking, woohoo, I'm going in a couple days. I had internal bleeding. I'm like, here we go, here's my ticket.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Because you wanted to die worthily.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:41] I wanted to die as. Yeah, I wanted to be a Nephi. Yeah. I wanted a Lamanite bride. I wanted to be healed of the temptations and weaknesses that I felt I had accepted in this life. And knowing me, trying to be that person that's going to prove every wrong. Like I believe, like in the pre existence. Like, who wants to deal with this trial? Who wants to deal with the worst one? Who wants to deal with being gay? And I'm like, I'll do it. I'll prove you wrong. Like I believe that my spirit would probably be that kind of person. I will do it. I'll deal with this gay thing and I'll accept my parents who were dancers, you know what I mean? Like, I really thought that and so I just figured maybe I was not strong enough, but I would not leave the church. And I will not live a gay lifestyle like that. And so I prayed, lord, let me find the right girl, kill me, let me find the right boy where I won't cross the line with this. And I found the right boy. I thought, I can, since I'll still say this, say this, we're not even together or anything, but I found the love of my life and the way we met, you can't. If I were to tell you the stats, I'm not even embellishing it because we don't have a lot of time. I know that we got to get to some other deeper points. It was divine. It was divine and beyond divine. And I just knew Heavenly Father was giving me a chance. Like that's what I believed. Like, I found someone who had. I met him theoretically through a baptism experience. I started a non for profit charity. We felt inspired to visit this poor family in Mexico and just give them a couple of shots, shirts and some clothes. And they had never seen missionaries in this area. It was a really bad area of northern Mexico. And he was inspired that next day to contact this woman in an area he had never tracked in before. They were all baptized. He didn't know about me at the time, but I heard that there was a gay missionary out there through an old friend of mine that knew. It's a long story, but in the end, I became his friend through Facebook. He's like, threw it with a grapevine. I heard that you're a gay Mormon, but you're staying in the church and you're fighting it. Can you help me out at all? I just got home from my mission last week. I'm like, sure. I gave him a couple of links. Some of these didn't work for me, but they might work for you. Good luck. No pictures were posted yet. Well, a couple days later. You know when you get like little feeds and pictures and people post things? So I see his pictures and I'm like, oh, my gosh, he's so cute. He's so dang cute. Like, perfect type for me at least. And super hot. Like, super hot. And I'm clicking through his pictures, like, drooling a little bit. And then this picture comes by, his mission pictures. And there he is with that family date on the picture the day after. I had a picture with the exact same group of people the day before. And I just felt I knew it was divine. Like, oh, my gosh. I told him this. I didn't think maybe we were supposed to be together, but maybe good friends. And one thing led to another. I visited him. He lived out here in Utah and we fell hard for each other. And I felt like when I was 21, getting home from my mission, I had nobody to talk to, I had nobody to protect me. And to be like, I've gone through this for a couple years now. I have some worn out Doc Martens shoes. I know what it's like. I'm going to help you through the ropes. And I felt like in a weird sort of way I was helping my 21 year old self. It was redemption. I felt like I could be a missionary again in a weird sort of way. And we fell for each other hard and we didn't really ever cross lines. Nothing that was needed to ever be confessed. Like we were really good, slept in the same bed, spent holidays together, traveled a little bit together. And it was just pure, innocent love. And he had a temple recommend and I was working on getting mine back and feeling like I was ready to go back eventually. And I made a promise to him and to God that I would never do anything that would jeopardize him losing his temple recommendations. And I stuck with that. And in fact, the end of our relationship was because I was going to stick with it. And it got to a point where I felt like he might have needed to sow his wild oats and I couldn't be that person, even though I had already kind of done that. And I couldn't go that route.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Because you loved him so much.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:50] I loved him so much and I'm not going to be a sissy and cry. I loved him so much and I couldn't do that to him. I couldn't do that to myself. I would hate myself. And I knew if I were to do that then that the relationship would end. I felt like it was divinely given. Kind of like so youo Think youk Can Dance. Had I crossed that line, I would have lost everything or not deserved it. Parallel exact, parallel story. And I was faced with the same exact dilemma. Except this time this was beyond pure love. And. And yeah, so I ended things and I felt like, you know, I need to get back to a place where I'm in the temple and I feel a little conflicted having a boyfriend doing that. And you've made me happier than I've ever been my whole life. But I know that in order for us to survive, maybe we have to go through these trials. I need to get into a better place. I Actually from that moment had this goal. And this is what's going to get me to that whole isolation thing. I made it a goal that I'm going to go back to the temple. And the day that I do and feel right about it and feel great about being in the church, I'm going to find my answer. The day I walk into the temple and pray, what to do? Do I marry a woman or do I stay celibate? Because that's all that I could figure as being my options at the time. I wasn't going to kill myself. At the time was a little bit more positive at that moment. And that was going to be it. And I encouraged him to do the same. So that's where we separate. And now we're getting into 2000 and tens. 2011's not 2011's yet, but almost. I confessed everything to my bishop again. He's like, you're fine, go to the temple, Benji.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] So you're keeping yourself out of the temple.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:30] Keeping myself out because I didn't feel a spiritual confirmation that it was right.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] I didn't feel you were taking this

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:34] really seriously as a seizure. As serious as a seizure. That's a quote from a gay themed movie called Latter Days about a gay Mormon. It's a quote from it. Sorry. Anyways, yeah, as serious as a seizure. Yeah. Because I was true blue still to that day, you know, and I might have fallen from grace. I might have dropped my pants on TV and fooled around with a couple of boys. But I was a true blue believing Mormon all the way of the deepest kind. And so I kept going back to the, the Bishop, feeling like I'm not ready for this. I don't know what to do. I was in a new single when I moved and I figured maybe I can start fresh. Felt nothing. Hated going to church. Hated it. Felt that. Now I'm getting to like, what's the rebellious age? That one of the prophets said, like, you're in rebel. Cause if you're not married by the

John Dehlin [00:35:28] time you're like, oh yeah, menace to society.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:30] Menace to society, yeah, total. I was hitting menace to society age. All of my closest friends had already. Like my two best male friends. Like my two best male LDS friends that there are, they're cool with this. They know what I'm doing. This Ricky and Bear, his name's not really Bear, but we call him that. Two best friends in the world. We put our papers in together at the same time in the mission. I came out to them, one of the first people that I told about my struggles, they knew about my boyfriends. We all hung out. They were cool with it. As long as I didn't screw up, they were cool with it. So we'd beat you up if you did. So it was cool. And David said, benji, we're going to get out of jail for you. We'll pray for you. Is just go have sex with a girl. It'll totally change you. Say what?

John Dehlin [00:36:08] It'll fix you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:09] It'll fix me. It'll fix me right up. I used to laugh at them for that. They used to joke about that. But so, yeah, I went through this process. I hated going to church. I started falling deeply into, like a deep state of depression. And I felt uneasy at church. Every time I walked in, my skin crawled. I felt like everybody was looking at me. Everybody knew. A sense of paranoia kind of grew in. I felt guilt because I was looking at boys now a lot more. Like, I would walk in, I'm like, who are the cool single hop guys today? What am I thinking? Like, I gave up that already, you know, and it would just be constant guilt. And I'm like, ugh, you know, this is really, really hard. And then I'm thinking about it, maybe I need to go to a family ward. So my end of my single adult ward life was I told the bishop I need to find some restitution. I think I have some underlying issues with the church and I don't know how to deal with them at the time. I also Prop 8, you know, it kind of happened and went through. And I did an independent film where I played a gay man in a musical comedy, really low budget indie film called Leading Ladies. And I play that. That one gay, gay person that I don't think I am, which is kind of funny. And what's funny is the day I dropped my pants, I was casted from that date because that girl's like, oh, he could play a great gay guy. And so anyways, kind of funny. But I was going around all these gay film festivals. It was actually really fun. And I got to promote a film and they were asking me, you know, we read in your Wikipedia that you're a Mormon. How do you feel about that playing a gay guy? And, you know, it's funny is I'm around all these great progressively intelligent gay people at these festivals, and I'm seeing they're not all wearing leather, you know, they're not whipping each other, they're not all in drag. And even if they are, they're really Cool. They're nice, actually. They can hold a conversation. They're intellectuals. They're college graduates. They're family men. They're. They're partnered. And I'm thinking, these people are great. I had a really interesting exposure because I had gay dancer friends. But most gay dancer friends, they're sluts. That's what they call themselves. And they don't care. They like it. They like the attention. Sorry if that's a little too heavy of a word. But anyways, okay. Yeah. If you've listened this far, I guess it's not a big deal. And they're cool with it. They own up to it. So seeing these people in a different light kind of changed my perspective on the gay culture, on gay lifestyle. At that time, I was very much at peace with. If you decide to leave the church, I get it. I respect it. I will never do this. That's what I was thinking.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] You were telling other people this.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:43] Yes. And go at peace. And you know what? Find your peace. And I believe that you won't be held accountable. And I believe if you live your life right. I truly had a testimony that time that some people were meant to not be in the church.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:54] I did believe that.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] When you see a certain group of people suffering so badly, you realize that it's. It's. It's either leaving the church or death.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Better that they leave.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:03] It really is. It really is. And, you know, it's funny, you know, man, like, talking about having joy in this earth, and I always found this really weird imbalance sometimes where people are like, you know, you desire to have great happiness on this earth and eternal happiness in the next life, but it's like, what about just eternal happiness in the next life? But nothing on this earth that's difficult. You know, Job at least got his recompense in this life.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] You're talking about the request of the church to have someone be celibate for their entire life.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] And to never know love and true intimacy.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:34] Yeah. Yeah. Because at that point, they were saying, do not get married to cure yourself.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:40] That was actually finally said, which I was like, all right, Go, Church progression. Good job. So to finish this out, I asked for my bishop. I'm like, I need to find restitution. Could I please have a. I asked for a disciplinary council. I'm like, I think I need a tribunal. I think I need to voice my opinion. Not to just one man who loves me so much. I think sometimes, young singers, you weren't

Seeking Forgiveness and Church Discipline

John Dehlin [00:40:04] believing that he had forgiven you. I wasn't this is very symptomatic of the scrupulosity which my listeners will have heard about before. You just. You doubt your worthiness, pathologically?

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:16] Oh, yeah, it became manic. I mean, it really did. And I was lashing myself, you know, and I thought that was my own penance, like, this is the way I can prove my worthiness. But I'd always had those moments of peace in the past when I was suffering through challenges, even with my parents, we would kneel down and pray all together, and there would always be that light at the end of the tunnel. And I hadn't felt that in a very long time. And I'm thinking, did I screw this up? What did I do wrong now? And I never felt that restitution. And so my bishop's like, I don't think I would be willing to do a bishop level, bishopric level thing. And like, then I'm going to ask the stake president. And I did. And so I got it. And I was really excited about it, actually. I felt at peace, like this was the right decision, that maybe I'll find restitution in all of this. And maybe if I can start with a clean slate, whatever it may be, whether it's excommunication, disfellowshipment, a small, minor whatever, repentance process, whatever it is, I'm willing. And I was almost hoping that I would get excommunicated. Like, I didn't embellish on details, but I was graphic to the account because I wanted them to know the severity of all the things that I wanted

John Dehlin [00:41:22] to clean the slate.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:23] Yeah. Even though I confessed to all of it already. And so when I told my stake president this before that that process happens, he's like, well, we'll have it. You know, we'll have it. You need to have this for yourself. And I think it'd be good for you. I think that's a great way. My stake president, probably one of the best examples of a Mormon man I've ever met in my life. To this day. I love him to death. And. And he said he's a psychologist, too. It's kind of cool. He's like, yeah, I think you need some closure. Let's find some restitution bench. He's like, you need at least something. And I'm thinking excommunication. He's like, it's not going to happen, but something will happen, you know, And I remember saying my whole story in front of these guys, and it was really weird because this is the first time other than with a bishop or stake president that I'm talking to people that might have seen me on a TV show. And sadly enough, when they were walking in, one of them was like, who was a gay father? He told me he was gay afterwards. Told me afterwards. He's like, I'm so gay. You can totally do it. Not a big deal. It's really tough. And I've messed up before in the past, but, you know, my second wife's wonderful. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh,

John Dehlin [00:42:26] I

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:26] don't want to deal with that. How many lives do I have to destroy? Or breakups do I have to have or children do I have to desert? I don't want to do that. I'm thinking that just seems really unhealthy. But I guess he repented. He's on the right path. Good for you. I wish you well. So I'm going to quote that from Circling the Wagons book intro. So I ended up going through it. They ended up like, it was great. The last thing they said, because, you know, one side's representing the church, one side's defending you. And all of them were like, we just really admire that you're doing this. It's really hard to be a male amongst males talking about this like, that's a very awkward situation. Thank you for your candidness and talking about all this and your desire to repent. The other half. There was only one guy, one idiot in the whole group. One idiot in the whole group. He looked at me, he's like, what do you think about prop bait? And I said two things to him. I said two things. One, it has nothing to do with my repentance process right now. And I said in two, I think the church is absolutely wrong. And he looked at me like. And you saw like maybe half the room, like, scoot their chairs back a little bit. And I then finished by saying, I believe I've seen people that have left this church. I've seen people that have killed themselves. And I would much rather see two gay men or two women actually living in a society where it's okay to be partnered rather than hooking up in bathroom stalls, cheating on their wives or cheating on their husbands and, you know, not having to just have drug induced dungeon gay sex. Right? There's secret gay sex societies at byu. I know for a fact. I've met people there that have tried to get me to go. My first dance coach died of aids and he contracted it at byu. Married in the temple, three kids. So there are secret societies even as the Book of Mormon paints. Because society does not accept unions of man and man or woman and woman. And I believe if we were to be raised, if younger gay generation was to be raised in a time where this is okay, maybe they would be more geared towards having a monogamous relationship or a good union, whatever it may be. And I felt like, yes, this is choosing the lesser of two evils. Those that are not against us are with us. Christ said it many times and I think that that is something we need to look into. And some of them are like, okay. I said, but that does not affect my desire to be in this church. Not at all. I sustain my leaders when I'm worthy. So give me my pendants. Whatever I have to do, let's do this. And so I walked out literally 30 minutes later. I'm thinking, here, I get Xed, I'm going to get xed. I have to wait three years, but let's do it. Here comes three years. And they said, benj, wait a year. Don't take the sacrament. It's like, I guess it's like a disfellowshipment, right? And some disfellowshipments, I guess were for 18 months. Mine was for a year. And they said, just do that, you'll be fine. And they wished me well. And a lot of them bore testimony. And they were all crying. It was a good thing. It was a very beautiful, cleansing, cathartic experience. Excuse me. And I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was absolutely wonderful. So I had a year now. So I decided I'm going to move out of the single ward. I don't want to see single boys. I don't want to see temptation. I will not have the Internet in my apartment. I will.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] This has every signs of not ending well if it is carried to its extreme.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:51] Yeah, yeah. You know exactly where this is going. So for a drawing, right, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Withdrawing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:57] Completely withdrawing. Repressing in a proactive, physical, metaphysical way. Very weird. Okay. So yeah, I had to breathe for a second. This is where things get really weird and it's a little bit more fresh, so it gets a little bit more passionate with me. That whole year I was a good boy. I was. And I still felt weird because I felt like the spirit immediately come back to my life. I felt great studying the scriptures. I figured, okay, I need to be proactive. So I would go to dance, I would teach, I would travel, I'd come home. And I got really hooked on Mormon Stories podcast. And I thought you were a stud because like this is an active Mormon dude, and he's raising the issues and he's cool with the gays. And I'm like, that is the kind of Mormon I want to be. But, you know, gay, but whatever. So I'm like. And I'm like, this is awesome. And so I got really attracted to that. I got attracted to a lot of deep doctrinal studies, but they never deep me from leaving the church. And I want to say something really quick to people that are watching and listening.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] You pay attention.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:00] I'm defending my friend John Dehlin right now. He is an effing Godsend. I really believe what you are doing. Now I'm crying again. I want to thank you, dude, because I've never felt such depression and isolation because I felt like I had to go through this. And some of my only friends were listening to you and your interviewers and the people that are being interviewed and hearing people that may have doubted. Like, I never doubted, you know, But I loved hearing their stories of their trials because I felt like maybe I'm not alone in this, that we all have these weird individual plans of salvation and life is unique and it's rich, and maybe some things are not understood yet. The church and there is no real sense of infallible servitude, and that's okay. And I found so much peace in that as a Mormon, as an active Mormon, I felt peace listening to Mormon stories, and it probably saved me from killing myself. Theoretically, it could have been a possibility or doing harm or acting out sexually aggressively. It saved me from a lot of heartache, and it was a godsend. It is. So anyone that wants to hate, I will flip you off. You can't see it, but I'm flipping you off right now because you don't understand how important something like this is for everyone in the world of Mormonism, wherever they may be within it. Back to it. Sorry. Anyways, I'll pay you later. Yeah, yeah, I'm totally endorsed. I support this. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Thank you, Viji.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:40] Yeah. Love you, man. And, you know, it's no homo. But what I did was I started studying a lot and I actually became really savvy in the scriptures. And I became this apologist, though. Like, I started being very apologetic. Like, I would hear the people that were like, anti or ex Mormons, and I would be like, okay, I'm going to find reason and logic behind that and find spiritual answers and things that the prophets of new have said. And my biggest explanation was, I'm following my prophet now. Like, that's almost always the biggest excuse that we can use.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Forget what Joseph did. I'm following my prophet.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:13] Yeah, forget what Brigham said. Forget about the fact that he mentioned Adam God theory, what, 1600 times or whatever in the time before he died and all of his written up journals and this and that and how he said, you know, if anyone that doesn't follow that they're following an apostate church, like that seems pretty strong, strong words. But I thought, you know, it though, times change, people change. You know, I don't understand why the blacksmith, the priesthood, how to get it right near the civil rights movement. But that's awesome and cool beans, whatever. You know, looking at the stone that's rolling, this is the only Mormon movement that's actually really working. And I believe in the Book of Mormons. So I thought, okay, this is the only thing that's actually carrying the torch of original Joseph Smith Mormonism that's actually growing, really, you know, the community of Christ. But they changed their name. They collated with the Christian Coalition. They changed things as using the Book of Mormon as more of a reference to two scriptures to help the Bible rather than a separate standard work of its own. And I looked at that as a sign of, oh and the accepted gaze. So I'm like. And women priesthood. So I'm like, in Spanish it's called sacerdoci. Called it the mujer dosio. And it's kind of funny, which is like women priesthood, right? Priestesshood, I guess would be the word. And I just thought this is the only place that's where it's working. You know, there's no more big love. So obviously the fundamentalists movement's not really working out either. Even there's quite a few that are still around. This is the stone that's rolling. And so this is the true church. I preached about it. I felt good. When I preached about the restoration, I never felt like it was in doubt. I believed in the words of the scriptures. I loved it all. And so I became this big apologetic Mormon without voicing my opinion to anybody because I was locked in an apartment with two little doggies that I absolutely love. And they would sit there as I'm like discussing things with a French bulldog and a wiener dog and I'm talking about these things. And I became like an uber nerd with all this stuff, right? And then, and then I moved into this family ward. I would go to church. My bishop, he's also a psychologist. I was so blessed, I swear. And the first thing he told me Like, I hadn't talked to him in a very long time. The only thing was, like, listen, I'm disfellowshipped. Please don't call me anything. I know you know about that because there's, like, a little warning that they put a little asterisk on your membership records to let them know that something's happened with church discipline, right? But he said, I just want to talk to you about that. So I didn't go into the details, but I told him what had happened. I told him where I'm going. And I never really got to speak with him. They're so busy, you know, And I traveled so much, it didn't really matter. I was maybe there maybe once a month, if that, Usually once or twice every three months. So I lost a lot of contact. But I would just send him emails every now and then saying, I'm doing good. See ya. I'll see you in a year. See you nine months. See you in six months. See you in three months. So three months is hitting before I hit that year mark. I'm depressed as all hell, but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. And what was brilliant about all of this was, I'm ready to go into the bishop's office and say, I'm so good. I'm so ready to do this. I'm so ready to find answers. And my bishop hit me with this question that rocked my world. He says, benj, do you feel like you're worthy to receive answers? I went, yeah. Do you feel like the spirit speaks to you now? Yes. Are you living your life worthily? To be a member, an active member, to hold a calling, to go to the temple? I said, yes, other than the fact that I haven't paid my full year of waiting, yes, completely, wholeheartedly. And he's like, okay, then why don't you just get your answer now? Why do you have to go into the temple to receive this answer? Like, why did you say. I said, because the temple is always a goal. Like, the temple is something that we look to as members to, like, reach for something higher, aspire for something higher. That was like an old EFY theme for years ago. And I always remembered that. And so I thought, you know, what more of a sacred place can I be in? He's like. And he told me Joseph didn't have his. He had a garden. He was on branches, on leaves. And I thought to myself, okay, that's kind of true.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] What was he trying to do?

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:12] In the end? I think I said, well, what are you trying to get at? Yeah, like, what are you trying to say? Are you just trying to say that I need to figure out maybe exactly how I'm going to go about this path, if I'm going to try and find a wife, if I'm going to go for the celibate route or, like, a gay companion that will never have sex with me, maybe we'll live and sleep in separate rooms or something. Like, he's like, you need to think about all those things and maybe kind of have an idea before you get back in full standings in the church. And he's like, the reason why. He's like, I don't want to sign off on a temple recommend for you to lose it in a month because

John Dehlin [00:53:42] you go to the temple and you don't get the answer you want. Or.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:44] And maybe I'm stuck in limbo again and I get depressed and maybe I make a stupid mistake.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] He was seeing the ending.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:50] Oh, he knew it. And he.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] He had revelation.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:54] I think so. Or maybe it was just the fact that he's a smart man and he has worked with gay people before in his studies. He even said, you know, Benji, I would definitely write now. And he's like, I know you can choose whatever you want. Are you attracted to girls at all? Like, the same question. That's a good sign that you're attracted to some girls. And I'm like, no, it's not. We got into this big fight about it, and I'm like, listen, you work with, like, crazy people at a loony bin. I may be a little crazy, but I've worked with a lot of gay people, and I know a lot of the terminology. I've read every book there is about it. And I'm telling you right now that to try and, like, date girls right now is probably going to be the most catastrophic thing that I can deal with unless God himself tells me this, I can't do it right now. I just can't. But I don't mind trying to find peace. I just need to know that a confirmation of peace and solace being in the church and finding happiness and serving in the church will be enough. Gordon Hinckley said that every member should have a responsibility of calling a friend this and that. So I believe in that. And so he's like, okay. He's like, that's cool. He's like, well, just start praying about it now. But he's like, I'm going to recommend to you that in seven years, if you get married to a Wife, your marriage is going to be over. I'm like, talk about instilling, like, good faith in me. And so he was really trying to push the whole celibacy thing. And I'm like, well, do you believe that I should be celibate for the rest of my life? Is man meant to be made alone in this life? Anyone that's ever been to the temple know what that means. And you know, like, it's. To me, it was just like, no, we're supposed to have that. Help me, you know, pull my rib out, make somebody. I believed in that, you know, I believed that the happiest moments of my life were when I was with that boy easily and on my mission with a male companion. That's kind of ironic. And serving people and being able to be active in my church. So I'm thinking maybe I need to rethink this whole thing, gay companion thing. But I don't know anyone that'd be willing to do without being physical. I was thinking maybe I can castrate myself and maybe I can, like, take reverse hormonal pills. I don't know. Maybe. I mean, I was thinking.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] I was literally thinking, this is psychologically intense.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:53] Super intense. I am combusting without even knowing it

John Dehlin [00:55:57] yet at this point, this is imploding.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:59] This is a self implosion, right? Completely. Yeah. And I didn't realize it, though, but I think my bishop realized it. And he's like, benj, I think you need to calm down. Don't stress that out. Find your answers. But in the meantime, maybe it'd be really nice if you kind of reached out to some of your gay Mormon friends. And I'm like, what does that mean? I have a lot of gay Mormon friends. We're all trying to fight it. No, he's like, I mean, maybe find some sense of companionship with them.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] This is an inspired bishop.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:27] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] Like, this is. I mean, you could just see a bishop that wasn't really too tuned in. We're gonna do three more months. Three more months. You're almost there. Let's get you to the temple. You'll have the experience.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:40] I got a hot daughter. Yeah. You know you hear those things, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] And this guy, he saw the future.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:46] He rocked my world. And he told me, he said this. And this is really. This was kind of, like, epic for me. When he said it, he's like. He's like, yeah, I think you need to maybe, maybe go find some physical, like, obviously not breaking the commandments, but you need to find a way to get the physical needs met. I'm thinking. And I literally, I hit my fist on the table. And I'm like, you're not inspired. I was angry. I'm like, you're telling me to go back to the path that caused me to go through this nine months of hell. I will never do this again. Will break. I will break. I said, how dare you tell me to do this. You're playing with somebody's spirit life eternal. Like, I was angry, I was offended. I feel so bad now saying that. But I was so angry and I told him that.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] I'm just thinking of the believer side of me saying, what the hell is this bishop doing? Like, you're almost there, you're almost at the finish line and he's freaking derailing you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:46] Yeah, from, from righteousness. Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] That's what the believer in me is saying.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:50] Yeah. Oh yeah, completely. That's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking you're weird. You know, I thought to myself, I said, you're a learned man. That's what I'm thinking in my head. I said, you're a psychologist that's basing things off, you know, some old 1976 pre Spizer Spitzer. Spitzer, thank you, pre Spitzer report and is saying for me to just, you know, kind of throw in the towel. He basically said to throw him a towel without saying it. I was kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] But the believer in me is saying, why is an inspired bishop saying that derailing you?

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:24] But he never said to break any commandments, right?

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Yeah, but he's derailing you from the past completely.

Facing the Church's Disciplinary Process

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:30] And so this is the funny thing. Okay, So I, ah, this is what's really interesting. So this is where things came crashing. This was a period of now, within those three months, the most intense moments of my life. And this is to finish it off, kind of at least to show where I'm at in my life now to get to the present day. I walked out of the meeting like hating the guy almost. I'm thinking, this is so wrong, so wrong. But then I thought, as he said that, I thought, well, maybe this will give me a chance to talk to that boy again. My ex boyfriend number two. He's my number one, you know, but my number two. Anyways, so I'm thinking maybe I can reach out to him. I haven't talked to him in a very long time. And I did. And we took a long walk. I drove up to Utah to visit him. We didn't. Nothing physical ever happened. Between us. In fact, he was in a relationship at the time with somebody else. But we just took this long walk and I vented everything that I'd gone through in that year, theoretically of going through that, if not more, and the hell it's been. And he had chosen kind of a different way, different path of going about things. And he was happy where he was at. And for me, seeing him and seeing those feelings again just arise within me. Like I felt. It's kind of like, you know, like two turtle doves are like those. It's like that really funny YouTube video. Those two like floating like otters that like hold hands and then they get separated and they float backwards and they paddle and they touch each other again, like I said, felt this connection again. And I felt like my world light again. And then I remember I had to drive home and I didn't get to hug him or kiss him or do anything like that, obviously for the fact that he was with somebody. And I just felt like I hated boys. I felt like I missed out. I felt like it's just too much drama to deal with. I don't want to put myself up to that hurt again. And I felt like, no, I'm going to end this. Like I am going to find a wife. That was my decision. Driving a 10 hour drive home from Utah, like I'm going to do after this interview. And I started having a panic attack. I hadn't had those in a very long time. And I started throwing up violently in about St. George, about halfway between here and home. I was pulling over the side of it and I'm just. I haven't thrown up in 10 years. I'm vomiting everywhere. I think it's just my stomach was in knots. I was having a breakdown. You're talking about imploding, literally, physically, I was imploding, just barf everywhere. And it looked like a scene from the Exorcist. And I remember passing out on the side of a road. Kid you not? And behind my car. So no one had been able to really see me either. And I remember waking up in my vomit thinking I'm at a low point in my life. Like I've hit. I don't know how far. I'm a leper now. I'm a leper. I'm in sackcloth and ashes. I've lost my farm, I've lost my family, I've lost my riches. My God is not talking to me like I've lost this all now, mind you, I'd sold my house, lost it basically. Gave it up, theoretically. And so I had nothing to claim I'm a badass dancer, right? But then again, my parents were world renowned and they didn't really have a lot of monetary compensation at the time. Time either. So I'm seeing this cycle. I'm seeing this perpetual nothingness happening. And I think I put a lot of my eggs in the fact that I need to find someone else to help validate the fact that I can grow with them, not even make a lot of money at this point, I just want to have a connection with somebody. And I needed it. I needed it bad. That's when I'm starting to talk to my dogs and have conversations with them because I needed to do it. And you know, my two best friends, they were married with having babies now. And I just felt stuck in this weird limbo, and I was caught in this weird place. And I go home, and a couple weeks later, I knew my answer. I am going to marry a woman. I'd rather have a woman and not be fully 100% into her, but love her and be faithful to her and show true fidelity to myself, spouse and have kids and deal with that than deal with the depression of being alone. To me, I actually saw something kind of as a blessing. This is hell. I am in hell right now. This is what hell is like. And now at least there's a little bit of, like, a silver lining on a dark cloud. This is better than that. And I thought it was. So I came to my bishop. I'm like, I know, Bishop. You asked me to do those things. And it actually put me here. And he's like, well, I'm surprised that you're taking it that way, but I'm not going to fight the divine. Good for you. You got a month left. Or whatever. The timeframe was this after that. So I go back to church, and I had this really weird thing where we had this big church meeting, and I'm sitting down and I'm feeling my skin's itching again. And they're talking about how can we reach out to our less active members. And I remember, like, the bishop was like, I want you guys to say ideas. And he called all the married people there, and I was the only adult that wasn't married. Because I go to a family ward, and we're all sitting in this little room, and he has a chalkboard and he's writing ideas, and people are giving out ideas. And I'm seeing these families hold on to one another and hold hands and husbands and wives that I've known for years, that I've grown up with, and I love these people. I really do. But for some reason, something in my heart for the very first time was saying, you don't belong here. Can you really do this? Benji? And I kept fighting it, thinking, I'm so close, it's Satan. So close, it's Satan. So close, it's Satan. So close, it's Satan. So this is where everything changes. I get a call from my bishop. He's like, you need to go to your old stake president. He needs to tell you something. It's very important. And so I drive over there, like a week later, and my stake president from that old stake president says, benji, I have to warn you about something. A new church policy.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] It's a new church policy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] That came around 2010. 2011. 11.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] Last year.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:30] It was last year. Okay, this is like

John Dehlin [01:04:35] February, March of 2011.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:38] February 2011, maybe February, March. Between those two months, more or less, give or take. And he said, and you can tell I walked in the room, and normally when I walk in this room again, this is one of my favorite members of the church. Church to this day, arguably one of my favorite members of the church. And he's fidgety, and I'm excited to see him, like, hey, I'm doing so good. I got a month or something like that left. You know, I'm doing great. And he sits there, he's like, benji, I have to tell you something that's going to be very difficult to take. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, they're going to have to excommunicate me or something like two more years. No, it's so bad. And he said, there's a new church policy. I'm going to just say this right now that remember that things are divinely put on here. And sometimes we don't understand why we have a trial, but we have to deal with it. And he's like, prefacing so much. And I'm thinking, gosh, what is it? You know, I'm thinking, do I have to wear like a rainbow flag or like a name tag that's in rainbow colors now? At this point, I'm like, I don't care. Just tell me. And he says, you know when in your church membership records, you know, when you transferred over, that it has a little asterisk that basically warns your bishop or whomever is looking at your records that you are currently going through church disciplinary action. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, you Know that usually goes away after you finish your time and you're back in active and good temple attending presence in the church. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. Yes, of course, I understand that. I can't wait till it's removed from mine. He's like, ah, well, you know, actually, if you're admittedly had participated in any homosexual activities, that's going to stick with you for the rest of your life. At first I thought, I'm going to be disfellowshipped for the rest of my life. Like I could only attend church. He's like, oh no, no, no, no, no. He's like your bishop, stake president, and whomever will know that they can never call you to positions where you're teaching youth. Anyone under the age of 18. And my heart dropped, dropped. And again, one of those. I'm such like a Richard G. Scott pounding the pulpit. Like I hit the pulpit and I went, I'm like, I hit his desk. And I went, what are you telling me? Like, what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say till I'm done, like I can't be around 18 year olds, I can't go to church till I have my repentance process done? He's like, no. He's like, this asterisk is going to be on your church membership records till the day you die. I said, okay, but what if I get married to a girl? He's like, it'll be with you to the day you die. What if I have kids? It'll be with you to the day you die. And I lost it. I thought something myself, you know, here I am bending over backwards to figure out how to make fit in this mold, this cookie cutter machinery mold that I was not made into, but I've bent myself to be there. How do I do this? And I just said, I said, how do I do this? Like, how am I? The only thing that I can look forward to right now in my life is being able to find validation in serving. Serving the church, serving the youth. There's a good possibility I might not meet a girl. There is that possibility. And I would even be willing to just fight it to the bitter until I'm old enough that my sexual drive is gone and I'll marry a woman who's a widower and we'll get married in the temple and it's gonna be awesome. Like I even thought about that. My mom even said that maybe you'll just get married when you're 70. My mom said this, that's weird. It's weird. That's such a weird mentality. She knows that. She thinks it's weird. Not too. But it's defeating. It's a sentence. It's not a process. It's a sentence. And I told him. I'm like, this is not of God. Flat out. I said, this is not a God. And this is the very first time in all my life, John, ever, my whole life, where I thought this might not be the true church. Or maybe, maybe Thomas S. Monson is not the prophet. I love Gordon B. At the time, I didn't know about some things that were a little controversial that he'd done in his past, but I thought it was terrible. Absolutely terrible.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] So you'd never be able to serve in primary or young even.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:57] I would never be able to be a scout leader to my own damn son. I looked. It sounds. Maybe this is kind of gay of me or maybe it's just good wishful thinking. I looked forward to tying my son ties at church and watching them the first day pass the sacrament and being able to be an advisor and watch them in scouting and go on camping trips and doing these things. And here I am wearing a scarlet letter for the rest of my life. And that is not right and that is not of God. And what about this book of life nonsense where our church records are supposed to directly reflect the organization of this church on the earth is supposed to reflect that of above. What is that? That is not the case. That is not the God I know. That is not the atonement that I know that I felt before. That is not Jesus Christ church. It is not plain and simple. It is bullshit. And I'm infuriated at this point. I'm thinking the hell and the love of my life that I gave up and everything that I've ever given up because I knew that I had to fight. This is disturbingly all coming to a really weird halt and crash. And then he said, benji, calm down. He's like, he gave me a lot of faith. He's like, ben, you need to just listen to yourself right now and realize this is a trial. He's like, all you have to worry about right now is getting back to the temple, right? I'm like, why? He's like, because if you get back to the temple and then you go to Salt Lake and you march over and you protest this, you as an active member of the church, can maybe have a strong voice in this. And I thought about that and I thought that was cool. And I thought, okay, I'LL do that. I'll find solace in that. And it actually pacified me enough. He bore his testimony, we prayed together, we knelt down. I felt okay about it. But again, it was the first time that there was that door that was open to see if the coast is clear and the zombies were running towards me. It was one of those moments where like, ah, they're coming in and. And now I'm running around in my protective house and all the zombies are after me. And so then, you know, things like the things that I'd studied and all the weird doctrinal studies. Now I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'm seeing a pattern here. This is kind of weird, but maybe I have to follow my prophet right now. That's how I stuck with things. And I thought, but if God's the same today, yesterday and forever, why is this policy changing? He said, it's more about the lawyers of the church protecting their assets, protecting the church's integrity. Thinking, what? Like what? Who's sowing what? Were there child molestation cases? Well, guess what? I've never done that. I'm not a child molester. Never. Never done anything inappropriate like that. Never delved into child pornography, Never did any of that. And yet I am being held in the same light. It's like a whole. It's a whole miracle of forgiveness thing. Again, we're compared to that. Who are compared to murderers. Bull. Sorry. No. Not from the communities that I've seen that are actually really positive. Not from the gay friends of mine that have killed themselves because they would rather do that than fall into that category. Bull. Not gonna happen. And then I thought to myself, how many boys and girls right now are on the brink of suicide? I was getting there. But how many people are that suicidal with their taking meds or their bipolar and manic depressants? How many of them would hear this and think, I have no hope to even serve in this church? Or those that said I would never get married, but I can't wait to teach Primary or play the piano for Primary. A gay man that's musically inclined. He could share his talents right then and there and feel like he is of need to the kingdom. He will never be able to do that. How depressing. And not only that, we'll only be around married men that get to gloat in the and bear testimony about how amazing their lives of having eternal family are. It is a sentence and it needs to change. So now I'm sitting back at church a couple weeks later and I'M like, I'm going to go to temple. I'm going to have a breakthrough. It's going to be awesome. And now I'm expecting something good. And I was pacified a little bit by my bishop, but again, my mistake, President. But those things kind of did creep through a little bit. And I'm sitting at church one day and I'm really close to going back to the temple. I don't know the exact timeline, but again, this is in that. That March time, I believe it was April at this point. And I'm sitting down listening to a hymn during sacrament meeting. Normally I sing the hymns I love singing. It's one of the only things that we can do as disfellowship members of the church actively. And the church can't pray out loud. Right. So I'm like, oh, I'm going to sing and belt these hymns. And I always sit in the back overflow by myself. It depresses me being around other families. It's one of those things. I was friends with the missionaries. Oh, it says we could never take the missionaries out for splits either. So a lot of things right, that I love missionary work. One of the biggest things of my life, one of my biggest passions. I couldn't do that one either.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] Ouch.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:44] Ouch and a half.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:47] So I don't want to sound too angry, but it did infuriate me a little bit and it hurt me more than anything. And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to this hymn and it's. I decided just to pray again to see if I can get my answer now at sacrament, I used to get a lot of answers to prayers through sacrament meetings, felt peace. I felt like it was a very good time where everybody was just in the same mentality. I get why people bow at the same time in other faiths because it is this movement of energy where our focus is in the same exact thing. So I love that about actually sacrament. It's one of my favorite things where you're all bowed in prayer, unified. Like I love it. And it goes back to my family, how we used to pray like that together. And I'm sitting here listening to the hymn and it's a rare one and I should have looked it up before I came here, but I didn't. And it talked about grace, which is such a rare topic that we bring up in our church everyday talk. It's one of those things that we talk about. But it's so born again Christian that it seems like we'd be Forgetting all of our to do lists a little bit too much. It's okay. Grace saves us. I'm saved by Christ. I accept him, you know. But grace is really important, and it is a doctrine that is spoken of very highly in the Bible, in particular, particular the New Testament. And I think that year we were studying the New Testament too, and Sunday school, so we were talking a lot about that. And this is being sung about grace. I mean, this is a beautiful hymn. And then I stop and I'm praying, you know, give me an answer, Lord, pray. Please help me out here. Please let me feel peace about all this. Can I find something to do here? And I look at the corner, you know, there's always like a little. Little reference scripture to look up. So I look up DNC 132 50, which ironically was. Yeah, it was in. It was mentioned a couple podcasts, the Grant Palmer Podcast, which was totally spoken about. Completely in a different contrast, right? Completely. Yeah, completely. But nevertheless, the. This scripture really spoke out to me in that moment. Have you ever done, like, the roulette thing where you just pick a page and try and find your answer right there? Well, it was kind of like that. And I'm reading it, and it says, in a nutshell, it says, you know, I've seen you have forgiven you of your. Of your. Of your sins. I've seen your willingness to bend your will to the Lord and keep the commandments. For, behold, lo, I provide for you an escape. And I stopped right there. Like, what does that mean? You know? And it hit me so profoundly. And it was the first time John in. I didn't know what that was yet. I didn't know how to materialize what is that escape? But it hit me so hard. It was the first time I felt peace in about five years, easily since my mission. First time I felt true peace, stillness, love. My body was relaxed. I was intense. I felt like there were angels giving me, like, back rubs. That's the best way to put it, you know? And I felt like it was one of those moments where, again, it depends on your perspective. It was either me communing with the divine and he was a little bit closer. The veil was a little bit thinner in that moment. Or. Or I was talking to my truest self that could see beyond this. Maybe it was the whole hundred percent of the brain rather than the 10% that works. Whatever it may be, I don't care. But I had my answer. And I asked. I said, God, do. What do I do? You know? And I said, is it okay if. If I can leave? Is it okay if I can. This is my escape. If Grace will be with me. Have I done enough? Are you happy with what I've done? Like, are you happy with all that I've tried to do? If I were to leave right now and. I felt this answer, I said, yeah, be at peace. It's okay. That's what I felt. I felt like, it's okay. Just remember the things that you've learned in this. Like, I thought to myself, I need to not let this go, though. I need to not let the people of Oaxaca, my mission, the experiences that I've learned, the diligence, the hard work, the labor, the service, all those things are the most amazing lessons. The kinship that I had with a great community, building communities, that is so important. And I learned so much. And my career is in gratitude to that. Beyond my spirituality, beyond finding anything else, beyond being a better father, a better husband in the future, which I'm planning on doing that, by the way, like that's going to happen. And it was everything. I felt, like, case closed for you, Benji. Like, quoting Babe, the movie Babe, that'll do, pig. Like, that'll do. And I felt that closure there. And I felt. I mean, more so than any other testimony I've ever borne, more so than every other moment to answer to any other prayer that I've ever had in my life, more than any other moment where I felt the Holy Ghost is touching me right now or is touching the person that I'm speaking to right now. I knew and could testify and will testify to this day that that was what God, or my innermost thought or my inner true self, or whatever you want to call it, Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, whatever anyone reads into this is that was my answer, clear as crystal. And then one more time, okay, let me. Let me put this now into perspective. I'm. I get my answer. Sacrament still being passed. Obviously I'm rejecting it, right? And I'm bawling my eyes up. My bishop kind of looked at me, and he's like, he's having it. Like something's happening. Whatever it may be, he's getting it. He knew it. And I'm sitting there like this, and I'm almost, like, exhausted. Like, physically. I let it all out, you know? And I'm thinking, did this just happen? This was all worth it. Like, at least I know, you know, I can go on, on and be at peace and not just say, well, I'm going to leave this place, because they don't accept me. That wouldn't have worked for me. I would have hated being gay, actively gay John, and just leaving the church for no reason. Like I needed something catastrophic and I needed the seat apart. I was that stubborn Mormon. Like, I couldn't do it. And so anyways, this is what the icing on the cake was again. Divine timing. I'm sitting here and all of a sudden, mind you, I'm sitting alone on a row and an arm goes around me and I'm thinking, okay, maybe someone saw me crying. This is my old family ward. People know me. They just see that maybe I'm going through a bad day and I'm just bawling 10 times as bad as this. There's snot, boogers and ties everywhere, and my scriptures are all gross over here. And I'm just sitting there, going back and reading that stuff, scripture, and then reading that hymn. And I'm thinking, this is as clear as day. What more of an answer could I ask for other than now I need to make that decision? What more answer? And instantly the thought came to mind, lehi did this. Nephi did this. A lot of people have done this. If you think about it, Lehi was a prophet, right? If we believe the Book of Mormon, the historicity, whether it's in question or not, Mormondom active, Mormons believe that Lehi left Jerusalem, left. He was a prophet already. He left the church, started his own, because there was a purpose behind it, a very wise purpose that only the Lord knew. I'm not saying I'm starting a church. I don't need to, I don't want to. But I'm saying there is a wise purpose, at least for me personally, and I believe that Nephi had to cut Laban's head off. He had to break the commandments that are written on table, on stone. If his church had seen him do that, they'd probably think, how did you get by this, Nephi? I bet you his brothers and sisters, like, how did you get those plates, yo? That's hardcore. That's crazy, right? But he did it because he followed the personal revelation that he got from his heavenly father, right? So our whole church is based off this. Our whole church is based off, for instance, that moment Abraham raised the knife to kill, to slay Isaac, to sacrifice him on the altar. He was willing. He was willing. And it wasn't until the angel stopped and said, we provide an escape for you, that he found the ram caught in the thicket. So I find that really interesting that some of the most paramount moments of our Faith of what we identify as our faith and true religion has been based off of going against the grain of the church itself. I think it's pretty interesting.

Wrestling With Doctrine and Church History

John Dehlin [01:22:52] How about Joseph and polygamy and the angel and the flaming sword?

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:55] Gosh, Joseph is a perfect example of that. Brigham even therefore, is a perfect example of that. Any prophet after that changing a policy is of that. As far as I'm concerned, anyone that went against, again, Brigham with the whole, you know, the whole Adam, God theory, they theoretically are in a weird sort of way apostatizing from what was established in that moment.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] Let's be honest, it's kind of the pioneer, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:22] It's a constant pioneer progression, right? If we're constantly being fed new revelation, the way the church is moving, that's the way people move. I think that my story thus far, at least up to this point, can be identified with any member of the church, active, inactive or ex, former. I think anyone can identify with this because they studied it in their scriptures since day one. Whether they want to believe that I was deceived by the devil or not, I'll leave it up to their judgment. I could care less. I got a thick skin now. I do want to say, however, that I think it's really interesting that in that moment, this is to top it all off. So you want a nice thing on the cake. Anyone that wants to disbelieve this. I'm sitting here, arm goes around me and it smells like an old lady, you know, like they have that older perfume and there's like a knit sweater. I just felt like an old bony arm around me, right? And I'm sitting there and I, I'm being like, I'm now like crying in this woman's arms, almost like I don't even know who this is. I couldn't even open my eyes, they were so tearful. But after I had that whole thought about like, you know, we've all gone through these knee fight moments, then it was this. I look up, you know, the boys sat down, sacrament was over, or the actual institution, sacrament was done. And I look up. And now, mind you, mind you, my ex, the boy, his family lives here in Utah. I'm not going to name the same state necessary. But they live out here, all of them do, right? And we used to visit his grandmother quite often for Sunday dinner after church all the time. And I think she's really cool. I don't know if she knew about us or not, but she just knew that we adored each other. And she always used to ask about that, like, you guys are just such great friends and Lala. Anyways, it's her. I'm in Redlands, California, in a stake center that's not off the freeway. She got. She was on the way. I don't know what she was doing exactly, but she had some other business elsewhere and she missed her meeting and she felt like she needed to take the sacrament and go to the overflow. So here is grandma that lives here in Utah, knows me, didn't recognize me because I'm like this puts her arm around me, she says, I just felt like maybe this young man needs. Needed a hug. Talk about awesome Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] This is the grandma of your ex boyfriend number two.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:47] Number two. But the number one. Number two. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. The one that I love my life. That's what I say.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] And that means to you. What?

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:53] Well, I thought maybe that's another sign too. Whether that is or not, that's TBT or TBD rather. But that's for another time. But what's also awesome is what other confirmation do I need? I had the material, I had the metaphysical spiritual enlightenment. I had the peace fruits of the spirit come after me. It happened during a time where I'm inside the Lord's church during the sacrament, the most holiest of all things we can do outside of going in the temple in Mormon world.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] While you're worthy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:30] While I'm worthy. While I'm close to going back to the temple, While I have sacrificed so much, While I was diligent in searching and fasting and reading the scriptures and I'm thinking, there's no way that Satan could be in this room right now, or I'm completely nuts. Which could totally be the case.

John Dehlin [01:26:49] But what was the message?

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:51] The message is lead the church. You are not meant to be here right now. Go at peace, be a good person. Remember and hold on to your true Christian ethics. Ethics. Because that is deeply a part of you and who you are. And that's what I'm doing now. April 27, which is ironic because it's the day I came back from my mission. Just six years later, I wrote my letter of resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm going to quote Joanna Brooks where she says, you know, like, I claim you and I totally claim my Mormon heritage. And I totally do. I'm Mormon. Like, you can't remove our funeral potatoes and our green jello with carrots inside of it. You can't remove my mission. You can't take away all the people that Voted for me, that are LDs, that have uplifted my career to where it's at today. You can't remove the moments that we prayed in supplication to the Lord, that we learned from going to church, from my babysitters taking me to church. You can't remove my history. You can't remove the people that I baptized and that I've helped inspire, that are that are in the temple now working. You can't take those things away. And I will not allow anyone to take that away. Now, why did I resign? Well, one, I don't want it to be a witch hunt. I don't want to be the Quinn of my day. I don't want that.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] The Michael Quinn.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:09] The Michael Quinn? Yeah. The Quinn. Michael Quinn of my day. I don't want that to happen. I don't. For me, I know a lot of people actually are good staying in the church that might necessarily have a testimony. And they work because they love it. They love that. They love going to church. There's something about the familiar aspect of it, but for me, my progress stopped. I could not go any further because there was no progression left for me in that field.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] Your spiritual progression.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:34] My spiritual progression could not progress there any longer. And that day, since to that day, I have not gone back to church. And there have been times where I wanted to go to church. I really have.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] Sure.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:48] You know, just to hear the primary sing, you know, just. But I'm not ready for that right now. Not yet. And it's funny because I still have my devotionals. I probably study the scriptures and Mormon doctrine more now and not even to like prove my position or anything like that, but I just find it fascinating. It's like a history person and more in that sense. I find it beautiful. And it's wonderful, John. It's awesome. It's still rich, it's still beautiful. I still get my church experience. And it's a weird sort of way. It was kind of a blessing. I think it's kind of all made sense that I refused to fully go back to the temple because it's not like I had the temple one day, then lost it. I'd lost the temple for a series of a couple of years, and I think it kind of helped soften the blow. Like it was me losing the temple then, losing my homeward than traveling a lot. So I met multiple wards. I mean, it was a beautiful, gradual, almost divinely put process of me landing softly on my feet. And. Yeah, so that's. That's where I'm at today. That's. That's me and theoretically my Mormon story. And I don't think the story's done. I think there's still so much more work to be done, both for myself personally and I think to help other people. And this is arguably the. Well, one, it's because I'm lazy and I don't want to write everyone I know a personal letter about my resignation from the church. But two, I think this is a way that maybe if someone's listening to this, that someone that's going through what I'm going through, that one, there's hope on both sides of the equation. I'm not trying to tell people to leave. I'm not trying to tell people to stay, certainly, but that you'll find your answer. You can find your way.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] Go to the grove.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:34] Go to your own grove, just like Joseph, and don't be. Don't feel you're unworthy to receive that deep down inside, somehow you'll get an answer. I really do believe that. And I'm grateful that I had to go through this gauntlet though, too, because it's more of a sense of being so sure that I made the right decision. A prophet of God. If you were to come up to my face today and tell me repent, I would say, say I would probably do that. And not out of disrespect to him and his calling, because my personal belief is that if there is a God, I think he'll inspire people that have followings. You know, I don't think he inspired anyone to put the cyanide in the Kool Aid. But I do think that all these faith religions, I think if they have good intent, I think they're doing good for the most part. It's just sad that sometimes that last little residue are affected. In this case, it's gay members of the church. And I'm greatly affected by it. But there are many, the greatest people on earth that I know are both in and out of the church. The 50 50. And I love so many members of the church, active ones, some know about me, some don't. They might know now. And I just want to say that I love them and that hasn't changed. And every visit, every home teacher, every missionary companion, every person I taught on my mission, I love them so much. And it's because of them, though, that I've led up to this place point. And I hope that they can see that. And I know most people probably won't. I'm okay with that. But I hope that they can be in peace, that I'm not making some rash decision out of because I fell in love with somebody or because.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] As if that would be terrible at this point.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:33] Now, looking back, that would be a great thing. How romantic.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] You know, but you were saying it's not because of that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:40] It's literally. I want people to know that it's the same way that I gained a testimony that I got out. No difference.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] Through inspiration.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:51] Yeah. Wherever that comes from. You know what's funny too, is I don't feel I've ever. Like, at that moment, I didn't lose my testimony in the gospel. I still believed in the validity of everything. I just felt like maybe I had my knee fall moment. Now. Things have changed in this last year since not attending church. It's been over a year now since recording this podcast. It's been slightly over a year, year and a month. And my perspective has greatly changed since resigning. Since resigning from the church, which I still haven't got my confirmation back that I've actually lost it. So I might need to take care of that while I'm here in the area. So that's changed. That's evolved completely.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] You went to the Grove and got your answer.

Resigning From the Church and Moving Forward

Benji Schwimmer [01:33:40] Yeah. I think the scariest thing that I would warn people that do go through this, that have the asterisk thing, or anyone that's thinking about leaving, is we come from a place where we hold. And this is just my little bit of information that I would give what I can offer. You've had brilliant doctors and every one of the kind up there. And again, I count to eight and shake my butt for a living, apparently. And so all I can say is this coming from a layman's perspective, what I have learned is this. When we hold our testimonies, being members of the church, we have these glass globes of the world. We see the continents, we see the formation of everything. We see the tectonic plates. And what I can say to everyone right now is we hold this. We hold this in our hands. And the moment we let go, even if we still believe in it, but once we leave the church, we let go of that glass globe. And what I've been doing in my process is now I'm cleaning up the floor so I don't cut myself. And I'm picking up these individual pieces now, and I'm asking, do I believe in this? Does this fit? Now? Can I put this back together? Or have there been chunks that have gone to so much dust? This doesn't hold true. Anymore. And, yeah, that's been my biggest quest and journey. I found complete peace. Dating life sucks. Outside the church or inside the church, that hasn't changed. That's another story for another day, I think. But I have found moments of love and that have been wonderful with people that aren't lds and some that are or were. And it's been great and tragic and beautiful and wonderful and real. But the one thing that I can say is the moment that I left the church, the day that I left, other than the whole me identifying what I do believe in, having my friends ask me what I believe in, is. I felt like for the first time in a long time, I am not thinking about my sins in a good way. I'm thinking about being a good person, a good Christian, being proactive, rather than going back to the chalkboard and seeing how many good deeds and bad deeds I have and erasing them. But the first day I got out of my car, I woke up and I went to the gym like I normally do. Walked my dogs, normal day, and I didn't wear my garments. That was a little interesting. And I walk up and there's this guy that I knew from high school, and I just felt inspired to give him money. He looked like he needed some money, and I did. Not to say that I'm great. I'm not trying to show what I gave or this and that, but I felt inspired to do it. Another woman, later on that day, I just saw her suffering and crying, and I felt like I could. I just. I just striked up a conversation. Maybe she just needed someone to talk to about nothing. And she did. She's like, I just really needed that. For some reason, I feel more in tune with helping others the way I felt as I did as a missionary, kind of putting myself without the worry of the rest of the world or the rest of my church world. This world. Right. And I've had the opportunity to actually be proactive in helping others. I feel more Christian now than I have since coming home from my mission.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] I think what I heard you saying is that instead of spending so much time trying to manage your sins, which

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:52] is a constant thing because we're constantly

John Dehlin [01:36:53] imperfect, you're now spending your time trying to look around and see where you could bless other people's lives.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:00] Yeah. And letting people bless me, I think that's something too, that sometimes we try and battle this with just Christ, the cross, and us. And sometimes you need other. You need your friends. I'm closer with all of my friends, you know, Another thing that I kind of felt too, after having left, I think I kind of held myself at a higher standard than other people. I saw myself as superior because I had the truth, they didn't. And I always felt like I had to try and sell it on them rather than be real or show my imperfections. I think pulling that pants down thing was almost in a weird sort of way, me trying to reach out, me trying to leave that. That confinement. And yeah, it's kind of weird, but it's true. And I'm closer with my true friends. Like some people, some members of the church that I've told some of my good friends have rejected me and I knew that was going to happen. Unfortunately, I love them and I want to be friends with them. I'm going to give them their time because we're too good of friends to let that destroy this. And some have grown closer with me. But all in all, it's been such a beautiful experience because now I look at everyone as community. I truthfully look at everyone as my brother and sister. Now it's like brother and sister, but then brother and sister. There's a totally different vibe. And I've asked even my. My friends that are active LDs. I'm like, tell me right now that what has changed between us three? Do you love me any different? No. But do you see me as farther away from you? Yeah. Do you see yourself as in a superior place? Yeah. Good for you. That's tough. But that's okay because I did that too.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Do you see yourself now in a superior place to them?

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:48] No, I don't. The only thing that I do is my heart hurts. Sometimes I forget what podcast it was, but it was talking about the idea of sabbaticals.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] Joanna talked about that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:39:02] Okay. Yeah. And how everyone needs to. In almost all cultures, even in face, everyone has a sabbatical. I would love to see what would happen if they just took a day off, see where they could focus their energies. It would be very interesting. And that's the only thing I just feel. I feel grateful and I feel like I have a privilege to have that exposure and that experience. So I theoretically might. Some people might think I'm in Babylon, but I haven't been burned to ash and I haven't been turned to stone. Right. Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] All right, Benji. Well, we've done five hours.

Benji Schwimmer [01:39:39] Oh, my God. Gosh.

John Dehlin [01:39:42] I don't know if that's a record, but we're pushing it. Oh, man, it's been beautiful. I guess. I have some random follow up questions. And maybe some questions from. From the listening audience. I Facebook this morning, I was interviewing you and lots of people had lots of questions.

Benji Schwimmer [01:39:56] She'll have more now after this.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Yeah, well, they're not listening, so.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:00] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] But yeah, they will be. So let's just do a lightning round because I don't want to get too deep any question. I just want to hit some things really quick.

Reflections on Leaving and Life Beyond the Church

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:10] Bring it.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:16] So there's this culture of Evergreen in the church. There's the Stuart Mattis firesides.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:24] Stop doing that.

John Dehlin [01:40:26] There's, you know, USGA Northstar.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:29] Yeah, you were a part of that Genesis.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] Yeah, you were kind of a part of that. You even spoke at some point. Firesides.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:36] Right, I did, I did.

John Dehlin [01:40:38] So there are. There are people now considering that path. And you've already said a lot about this, but do you have any quick reflections about that whole deal?

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:49] I remember hearing, reading, circling the wagons, and when there are some people that want to stay in the church that are gay and that quote, I wish them well, it affected me. I thought, that is evil when I first read it, when I was deep, like in deep and all those things. So I think almost anything that I'm going to say right now is not going to help inspire any of them that are thinking about going that route. All I can say is that we all have our own individual path to take and good for them. I think, honestly, a lot of people, if they do have a testimony, if you're true blue Mormon. Right. Like I am. I think a lot of those guys do go to that point to find. That's like their last resort to find something, a community that gets them so that their church experience isn't everything. Like, they can still have the Mormon experience of the gay side without hooking up in bathrooms or going online.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Although some of that happens at these.

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:42] That's another story. Yes, it does happen. It happens all the time.

John Dehlin [01:41:45] I mean, that was the rumor about the Mattis Firesides, that people would hook up in the parking lot.

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:50] It was a 50, 50 thing. And you could see those in the office that were attendance. Normally everyone just looked forward because it was kind of like, there's a lot of anonymous BYU attendees there. I remember the first time I went, I was shaking my boots because people knew who I was. I started signing autographs at the end. People took pictures and Facebook did. I know. I heard, like, oh, Benji's gay. That's why he's not at byu. Like, you hear those things, it's bad. But in the end, to make a Long story short, it is in the physical sense, it's a little difficult. And so a lot of those groups, like the North Star, have been a bit more stuck, selective with the physical FaceTime exposure, and they keep things online to show a support community that's a little bit more controlled. And I get why they do that. I get why they do that completely. On the flip side, I'm not going to knock the Mattis firesides because they were one of my only glimmers of hope in a very, very, very dark time. And the Mattis are the most amazing people you will ever meet, plain and simple.

John Dehlin [01:42:47] These are the parents of a young gay Mormon man who committed suicide on the grounds of a steak center in California.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:54] Yeah. And, you know, I know his family and I know a lot of his friends, and I still consider them friends. I do. And I hope that they can still consider me a friend, too. Since then, unfortunately, a lot of them have kind of stopped communicating with me, even though I never even had a chance to tell them about what's going on in my life or the experience that I had. But, yeah, I gave like a mini testimonial talk at a fireside one time, and I was asked by Tyne Mansfield, who's written now two books about staying in the church. He's married with a beautiful wife, Danielle, and they have an awesome, gorgeous daughter, and they're a great married family and they're making it work in their own way. That's just not my way. And that's okay. That's okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] Okay. So it's a very neutral stance and I respect it. I support it. My heart's there, too. As a therapist, you're taught never to impose your values on. Yet there are lots of young, you know, 5% of the LDS population is expensive, experiencing same sex attraction.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:07] Trying to figure out, I'd say 10 to 14.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] Yeah. Trying to figure out what they're gonna do. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] And so they get these workbooks and they read about Evergreen and they say

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:16] it further messes them up.

John Dehlin [01:44:17] I can do this. I can do this. Right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:18] There's hope.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] So on the one hand, we're both saying people should live the life they want to live.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] On the other hand, there's people listening to this podcast who probably are right back where you were when you were in that dark place contemplating suicide.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:34] And for those people, I'm saying you should leave. But, you know, I would say this in a nutshell. You know, how do they.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] This is my question. How does this 22 year old return missionary who's on the precipice of either marrying that woman or thinking about celibacy or being tempted to date, you know,

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:57] men or worse, living a double lifestyle or lying.

John Dehlin [01:45:00] How do they make that decision? What feedback or counsel can you give and not just say sorry, it's something where you have to decide for yourself?

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:10] Well, I think everyone does have to go through that process, unfortunately. I really do.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] So there's no way to short circuit

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:14] that or I mean, if you were to say, if I were to give my opinion, plain and simple, you would have to base it on what is your testimony. Are you doing this because you like the family? Your family pressures you to do this? Do you have a true blue testimony? If you do, I would say go the route of trying to see if this is all going to be valued.

John Dehlin [01:45:31] But you had the true blue testimony.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:33] I did, but I'm saying that I needed to go and exercise every option before I left, before I could find peace upon leaving.

John Dehlin [01:45:41] But how dangerous is that?

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:42] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] I mean it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:44] But how dangerous is it to leave the church? Or how dangerous, period, if you doubt it, how dangerous to leave it? Just from the cultural perspective, it is totally dangerous. How dangerous is it to stay in the church and marry a woman when you're not attracted to her? I think they're both. My good friend Mark, who I dated

John Dehlin [01:46:00] for a while, you're saying every path is dangerous.

Benji Schwimmer [01:46:02] Yeah, he wrote a really beautiful talk that was actually published in Affirmation. He's active member of the church and I love him to death. And he decides to stay for the sense, like, we need more gays here. He's totally gay, open about it, will never marry a girl, and he finds happiness now, as is what he decides to choose about that it's up to him and he's cool with it and he's at peace right now with it. Currently, I'm the guy that looks into the future. Like, I have to know. I have to know what's going on. And he, in a nutshell, wrote this article saying, you know what? It is just as gut wrenching to decide to give up the idea of an ideal perfect love that fits the natural you and make that work for the rest of your life. And to feel the responsibility trying to validate a woman that you might not even be attracted to remotely. Right. It is just as excruciating as leaving the faith that you truly believe in and love that it's been so big a part of you. I believe both are gauntlets within themselves. And I have the Utmost respect for anyone that chooses either or nevertheless, in the long run, if you have faith in the atonement, and if you've tried as hard as you can, I believe it's not a bad idea to think about taking a Nephite moment. Cut Laban's head, raise the knife, catch that ram in the thicket, leave your flock and build a ship, whatever it may be. Sometimes we are faced with that. I think it's the second to last paragraph in the proclamation of the family where it talks about, you know, all these things are laid out before us, but nevertheless, there are individual cases that are met for adjusting or adaptation. And I believe that. That we're a part of that adaptation. And I believe that every gay member of this church should have the opportunity to love another man or another woman. I think we would have such an awesome church if we just let the gays come in. If we could just leave that all behind and clean up our act and not worry about that so much, we'd have a really amazing church.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] So for that committed young Mormon who has reached the point of desperation and potential suicidality, those are the ones that

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:20] I'm worried about more than anything. They're the ones that are the ticking tie bombs.

John Dehlin [01:48:23] Once they're at that breaking point, then

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:26] you say, take your sabbatical. I will say this. Right now. You have an escape, and it's not the end of the world. It's beautiful and it's wonderful and it's wild and it's so new, and you have to reevaluate your testimony every day, but it's kind of like being born again again. And it's fascinating. And if I can just let anyone know that is. Is in that moment, one, your life. Living now is so important. You know, we as members of the church, think, you know, all is well. All is well. Which I think is ironic because that's like the theme song right now for these podcasts. But I would say all is going to be well in the afterlife. And that's more of, like, the theme of the Mormon Church right now. All is going to be well. All sucks right now, right? And I don't know, I don't know of a God or a Jesus Christ. I don't know of a Jesus Christ that didn't take the time to see the kids. You know, I love it. And it's not even doctrinally sound or anything, but I love in that Testaments movie where they show that little clip of Christ, like, holding the butterfly and marveling at it or like eating the apple or holding the kids. All the sign. The most, like, highest selling Simon Dewey paintings are usually ones with like a little baby there. Right. Holding a child. And I think there's something to be said about enjoying the pleasures of life. And if you can't procreate, if you're not gonna be able to have that kind of a unit. There are so many kids that need adoption in this world. There are so many. I plan on having kids. I plan on having my suburban Mormon family chest with a husband that's really hot. You know, that's it.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Is he a dancer?

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:11] I don't have one.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] No. I mean, as you envision him.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:14] I will never, never date a dancer again. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] All right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] So have you heard of the term the queer bounce or the gay bounce?

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:25] No.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] Rum springa. It's this idea that you, you leave the church. It happens with, with ex Mormons. As much as I've heard it happening

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:35] with that run back.

John Dehlin [01:50:37] No, no, it's. It's where it's like, oh, I don't have the constraints anymore. I'm not trying to be temple worthy. It's the whole gay lifestyle that people sort of.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:49] We're showing, we're showing quotations because that's not true. Gay lifestyle. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] No, but I mean, even for you, like, lifestyle, what. It's. It's got to be difficult to decide what your morality is going to be. And it's a scary world out there.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:04] And there are all sorts of scary, dangerous, risky, unhealthy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Behaviors.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:12] How do you. How do you. How are you going to avoid that?

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:15] Two things. Simple enough. One, I find it really interesting that almost everyone other than those that I know, they've been raised in a very strict religious environment. Even some that have, other than the Mormon Church, some of the greatest parents, heterosexual parents I've ever met in my life. Like, you know, for instance, one of the close kids that I teach their parents. I think they're the coolest people on earth. We're never really raised super religious or this and that. They're just, they have it together. They're the most faithful couple. They're wonderful. And yet for some reason we were talking about, you know, what's the wildest things you've done? Oh, my gosh. I did coke in college and I slept with everybody and this and that. And I just found my one true love and it was all good. And it's like there has to be something said about sowing your wild oats. Why do you think that college age, you know, the freshman 15 is. Even though in the freshman 15 you get at BYU is from eating bake sale cookies. But the freshman 15 in every other college is from drinking a lot of beer at parties. But this is our future. Most of them become ambassadors, most of them become great members of society. There has to be something said about sowing our wild oats in youth. And I don't find that to be a bad thing. I don't at all. In fact, I find it very, very healthy. It's our vision quest.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] But it can lead, it can end

Benji Schwimmer [01:52:31] dangerous, especially for Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] It can hurt you, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:52:34] Especially for Mormons, most definitely. So for instance, you could catch a

John Dehlin [01:52:38] disease, you could die, you know, in

Benji Schwimmer [01:52:41] an accident, definitely first. That's why I always say, say find restitution, then leave the church. That's what I did. So I didn't leave the church and think, whoa, party. I don't have any restraints and it's not that, like it's not, I'm going to go try cocaine, I'm going to have unprotected sex and I'm going to, I'm going to do this and that. I'm going to go steal stuff and I'm going to go, that's not how you feel. I'm not going to kill somebody. Yeah. Because like I said, the first feeling and effect that I had upon leaving the church was I really want to help people. I love everybody. So I didn't become this menace to society where I can kill someone because I don't believe in hell anymore. It wasn't that. And so because I think I found restitution within my faith and in the church and in my testimony with God, whatever that may be, I was like prefacing that or adding that little asterisk, no pun intended. But because I had that, it wasn't such an extremist fall. It was a gradual descent.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] There's still some adjustment though, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:53:41] Total.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] You're probably still trying to find your way.

Benji Schwimmer [01:53:44] Totally. But it was that whole picking up the pieces again of that glass globe and asking, do I believe in God? Do I believe in the historicity of the Bible, let alone the Book of Mormon? Do I believe in the salvific power of Jesus Christ? Do I believe in these things?

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Law of chastity, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:53:57] Do I believe in the law of chastity?

John Dehlin [01:53:58] Word of wisdom.

Benji Schwimmer [01:53:59] Do I believe in the Word of wisdom? Do I believe in the restoration, the way the restoration is being preached today? Do I believe that Muslims have A good point. In perspective, you ask everything and it's kind of like, it kind of reminds me of like how Adam and Eve must have been like the Garden of Eden when they, like they saw creation just in one day. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to have to name this. I'm going to have to see if I like this. And sometimes it's just by vision and sometimes it's by touch. But you know, I think if you go about finding, do you stay, do you not stay in a healthy way rather than in just open rebellion? It's a very healthy way to go. I never left the church just because of the Prop 8 thing. It didn't work for me. I still needed to ask questions. That, that was really bad. It was really, really bad and it made me feel weird. But I never felt as if, oh, I have to now just run away and chain myself up and have a severe sex with every person that I know. That doesn't necessarily be the case. Then again, I'm not being held bound by certain laws anymore. That used to affect me and used to mediate me a little bit more. But you have to find your way. But honestly, that finding your way pales in comparison to. To finding your path within the church. Being in the position that you're in pales in comparison. That is hell. Being on the fence is hell. Making a decision and enjoying that scenic route and taking pictures for what it is and seeing if it's good and being slow about it and not running so quickly and not running to an extreme. That's what it's about.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] So are you saying that living that life in that bus was more dangerous than what you're doing now for your well being?

Benji Schwimmer [01:55:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:55:53] Even if there's peril?

Benji Schwimmer [01:55:54] Even if there's peril, Even if there's questions to be asked, even if there's unknown. Because again, we live in a society of I knows we're born and bred to do. I know that this is true. I know God lives. I know the church is true. I know, I know, I know, I know I know nothing except for I know I made the right decision. I know I love my family. I love this podcast. I love Lamp. Like those things you dig and you know, but other than that, no, we don't know everything. I think I've been in love since leaving the church and I thought it was going to last forever and it didn't. That's okay. I thought I knew. I didn't. But again, that does not hurt anywhere near as bad. As what I went through in. And I think a loving God, if He does exist, the way that we paint it out in the church, would not want that suffering to happen within his church. Do you have an eternal perspective? No. Fight it. No.

John Dehlin [01:56:51] Real quickly, do you redefine the spiritual experiences you had now and say they were just your imagination or just indigestion?

Benji Schwimmer [01:56:59] No, because I don't need to. I know it. Whatever they were, I take them for pivotal moments in my life. Whether it was Elohim or whether it was the Holy Ghost telling me this, or whether it was Jesus Christ himself or an angelic visitation or divine revelation or one of the gifts of the spirit of prophecy or whatever. Whether it's just my inner voice telling me or whether I had a psychotic breakdown, whatever it is, it's led me into a path of peace and prosperity in the land, and I love it. And I would encourage everyone to seek that wherever they're at. Gay, straight, active, inactive believing, non believing. Those that have had that queer bounce, apparently, I encourage them to reevaluate maybe the things they might have held dear in the church. I'm still very Mormon. That's a funny thing. And actually part of the conference talk will be about that. But, you know, I have earrings,

John Dehlin [01:57:55] a tattoo or two, or 12, 13.

Benji Schwimmer [01:57:57] Now I have an asterisk on the back of my neck. I figure if it's not going to be on a piece of paper anymore, I'll carry it with me to remember. And those that do have that asterisk,

John Dehlin [01:58:06] what does it mean to you?

Benji Schwimmer [01:58:08] It means that I chose it for myself. And I'm still going to have a family and I'm still going to work, whether it's through ecclesiastical endeavors, charitable services, teaching dance, whatever. Having a family, I'll be able to teach with kids and work with the youth. I'll be able to deal with that. I'll be able to have those same rights and privileges that apparently were taken away from me and that were going to be taken away from me forever.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] Even with the asterisk.

Benji Schwimmer [01:58:33] Even with the asterisk on me. So that piece of paper means nothing to me. This enables me.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] So let's end as we always do with what you believe in now, okay?

Benji Schwimmer [01:58:47] I like to be bear my testimony. Can you just whisper my ear and have me repeat like a microphone? Too close.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] This is all yours. What shards of glass are you picking up?

Benji Schwimmer [01:58:56] Yeah, good question. I know that this life is meant to demonstrate true Christian ethics and love. I don't know if Jesus Christ is the Same Jesus Christ that's painted in the New Testament or in Third and Egypt. But I like the idea of a Jesus Christ and I like to consider myself a Christian because of that and because I want to live my life through ethics and charity and empathy and service and fellowshipping my fellow man, whatever walk of life, whether they were whatever a Jew or a Gentile. I don't care to see beyond a color line behind a sexual line to show true equality. I think is the Christian way. And anyone that says otherwise to me is very ungodly and satanic as far as I'm concerned. I believe, I know, rather I know that families are very important and that for some of us choosing this side of the spectrum, the lifestyle is going to affect our families greatly. But in the end, truth trumps contrived, truth trumps lies. And I believe in truths. I believe in true truths and I believe in finding those truths for yourself and not just believing it by the word or mouth of others or because a leader tells you you got to find them. I know that I believe and I know that the Mormon church in general, all the Mormon, is beautiful and it's culturally rich and it's exciting and it's great. And I know that my mission was meant to happen. I know that I was supposed to be a member of the church for 27 years of my life because it's gotten me to a place of finding absolute peace where I can feel like there's an escape. And if that is atonement to me, then I love it and I embrace it. For a lot of people that might seem a little weird because the words are not the same, but. But in the end, it is my spirituality in action. It is my now religion. But not religion as what we call religion now, but rather what it means truthfully in the word, to realign yourself with deity, whatever that may be. And I want to think the same way I believe in Christ. I want to think that there's a God out there that loves us and that is love and that loves all of us. And I think it's a very small minded God to think that only 15 million people, most of them inactive, have it right. Let's talk about the rest of the world that are just as devout as we are, if not more. Or let's talk about. I know that I'm going to one day fall in love with somebody and share the rest of my life with him. And I know it's going to be a him. And if not, that'll be a curve ball but bring it on. And I know that I'm going to have a family and I know that I'm going to love them and teach them to love others as well. And I think that's all I need to worry about this point. I don't need to necessarily worry about what about the next life when I am just dealing with today. And I think that's okay to embrace that. And I say these things in the name of. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] Last question.

Benji Schwimmer [02:02:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:12] I know that there are people out there stuck in the same box you've already.

Benji Schwimmer [02:02:15] There are many.

John Dehlin [02:02:16] Not just, not just same sex attraction, but faith issues, testimony issues about the church, other just types of issues. People get in these boxes where they feel like they have no escape.

Benji Schwimmer [02:02:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:29] I just want you to end by speaking to these people, offering them whatever encouragement or advice you want to give to them.

Benji Schwimmer [02:02:36] In the end, if you want, speak to the camera. Oh, gosh. It's a little weird. Hi. I would just say, sadly, when you live in a society that preaches we're heaven bound, you're going to have to go through hell to figure out if that's the route that you need to take. You will. And I think finishing on that note is. It's okay. You're not alone. Many of us have done this, many of us have stayed, many of us have left. But you have to find a place. You have to build your land. You have to, Brigham Young, cane in the ground and say this is the place. Because if you don't set your stakes up, your tent will blow over. And it is the worst thing to go to and fro and just to get tossed back and forth. It is hell. I think that's what hell is. It's limbo. And there is so much beauty in this earth, whether you're a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the community of Christ or none of the above. If you're an awesome agnostic or an awesome atheist, I don't think it really matters. But I think if we are to be judged, I think we're going to be judged based upon the works of what we truly believe. And that is paramount. And I wish you all the best and I love you all and you're not alone. So do good. Choose the right. Really right. Ctrr. Ctrtr. Truths are really, really, truly right. And John de Lynn, you're awesome. I want to finish by saying that. And I think you need to have another interview on Mormon stories very soon.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Oh, of my own.

Benji Schwimmer [02:04:18] Yes. All right, all right.

John Dehlin [02:04:20] Thanks, Benji. Okay, we got one minute.

Benji Schwimmer [02:04:22] John,

John Dehlin [02:04:25] are we rolling? So our other camera ran out of memory space, so we had to take Benji's camera and switch it to mine. I just want to thank Benji for coming on Mormon Stories. It's been beautiful. Really grateful for your story. I know it's going to help a lot of people. I want to remind everyone. Please go up to mormonstories.org carry on the conversation there. You can ask Benji questions, he'll answer. Benji's going to be speaking at the Mormon Stories conference in June around 15th in Salt Lake City. We hope you'll come.

Benji Schwimmer [02:04:56] Come.

John Dehlin [02:04:56] Lots of great, great stuff, but mostly Benji. Thank you so much. We love you. Good luck. I want to see you with that family. And thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Until next time, thank you. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@savor-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Benji Schwimmer [02:05:24] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy. Wendy.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.