Introducing Gerardo and Co-Hosts

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1439

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 11, 2021, and today I am super excited for this interview because we are literally interviewing one of my favorite humans on the planet. And that is why I'm excited, and that is why I hope you can just trust me, have faith in me that this is going to be a really important and powerful epic Mormon Stories interview. Today we are interviewing Gerardo Sumano. Hello, Gerardo. How are you doing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:32] I'm doing great.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Are you embarrassed? Did I embarrass you?

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:36] A little. Okay, we're good.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] So why is Gerardo one of my favorite humans? Because he's awesome. But there are so many cool things about Gerardo. If you notice the amazing cinematography, the camera, the lighting, the backdrop, all of that is the work of Gerardo. He has upped our cinema game on Mormon Stories podcast. Yes, but that. But that is the least. Believe it or not, that is the least of why Gerardo's so interesting and important. Gerardo is smart, he's funny, he's interesting, he's wise, and he has an amazing Mormon story. Believe it or not, as strange as it is, we're like 2000 hours into the life history of Mormon Stories podcast, and I don't believe we've ever interviewed a native Mexican. Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that. Is that right? As far as you know, Gerardo, Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:32] Born and raised in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] But what's just bizarre about that is that outside of the United States, I think Mexico and Brazil are the two countries with the highest population of Mormons. And so getting a native, someone raised in Mexico in the church, that's just a super important Mormon Stories podcast that. That is begging to be done. So today we're gonna do it. We're gonna be interviewing Gerardo, who was born and raised in Mexico. Spanish is his native language. English is his second language. And so that in and of itself is super important. But there's also so much more.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] You know, we're gonna be talking about Gerardo's faith journey. We're gonna be talking, you know, he has a lot of wisdom and insight. He studies, you know, Mormon, Mormon truth claims, and Mormon history probably more closely than I do. So he's got a lot of interest about Mormon apologetics, Mormon history, Mormon truth claims, all of that. So that's going to be fascinating just to get his perspective, not only as a Mexican, but also as a super thoughtful human. He's younger, so there's kind of the Gen Z Millennial kind of perspective, but for all these reasons, and then again, plus the faith crisis stuff and the apologetic stuff and the truth claim stuff, today is going to be just one of those heartfelt, gripping, epic, powerful Mormon stories. Interviews. So, Gerardo, what did I leave off?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:59] Nothing. I think it was great. It was a great intro.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] And of course, we want to introduce and welcome back to our podcast, Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:03:12] Hey, Gerardo. Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Thanks for joining us.

Carah Burrell [00:03:14] Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Me and Harado are basically like coworkers at this point, setting up all this stuff, making this work. So I'm really, really excited for this one. This one's going to be epic.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] And we got you a better camera.

Carah Burrell [00:03:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Smile at the camera.

Carah Burrell [00:03:27] Yeah. If you're listening on the podcast, make sure you go check out the YouTube video on this one. Gerardo spent so much time setting up this camera equipment, everything. It looks very cinematic.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Yeah. And just. Just for those who are joining us kind of for this episode, but haven't been listening recently, it's been so great to bring Carah on. She does so many things behind the scenes. This is something for everyone to know and forgive me for kind of this longer introduction, but we really do need to educate our audience about this one. The investments we've made thanks to your generous support is we're now putting time codes in all these YouTube, lengthy YouTube episodes. So we've had a lot of people say, I don't want to watch a four or five hour or eight hour interview, but I want to be able to consume some of this stuff and maybe jump to the parts that are important, or I want to be able to refer people to parts of the interview without making them watch the whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] So there's a couple things that we've been doing with your support. One is we have The Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel, which is a separate channel from Mormon Stories Podcast. Brooklyn Alden has been managing that. She does our video and audio editing, and we've been releasing shorter, smaller chunks of interviews on Understanding Mormonism. So you can consume smaller pieces of these interviews. But also what we're now doing is releasing time codes in the description of our YouTube channel of our lengthy episodes so that you can see and jump to the parts that you want to jump back to them to remind yourself, refer them to others.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] But all that takes time. So Carah is meticulously noting time codes and different segments of the interview as she's being here. She also monitors the audio and video to make sure audio and video is Clean and provides valuable insight with her perspective and sometimes even humor. So for all those reasons, Carah, we're just so glad to be able to have you on board.

Carah Burrell [00:05:15] That's really nice. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] And now we can blame you if the audio or video is bad, it's Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:05:21] That's very true. I will absolutely take that off of your shoulders, John. All of the blame is on me. And I should also add that one of the biggest complaints sometimes is that the. The. The episodes are a little bit long and it's hard for people to jump to. And now with our TikTok channel on Mormon stories, TikTok, it's up to 23,000 followers now with lots of short segments and stuff. So the information and the stories are being disseminated better than ever before. So all of the donations, we're making sure that all of these interviews, the information is really getting out there and stretching those donations as far and wide as possible.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] So, yeah. Yes. And I. And thank you for reminding me, because, again, this is a lengthy intro, but it's super important. We asked Carah to start the Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel, just, like, two weeks ago, and we've already got, like, 20 shorts up there. Some of them have been viewed half a million times. Just three shorts that Carah released, like, within 24 hours of yesterday have in aggregate obtained a million views. Just three. And. And again, like Carah said, shout out

Carah Burrell [00:06:30] to the Mike Sells and Kyle Ashworth. And the. Just the recent interviews from the last few weeks, the more interviews like Gerardo's that we're going to be doing, the more little clips we'll have. And I think that draws more traffic back to listening to the long format and the context involved and just getting more viewers and people's stories and more interest in what's going on in the world of Mormonism is always helpful at making change and helping people progress through their deconstruction, if that's where they're at in life. So all over, I think it's really a positive, uplifting, helpful thing that we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] So. Absolutely. So thank you. Care for that. And, Gerardo, you and I were talking about this as well, because this. We're kind of a team, us three in Brooklyn. We're kind of the Mormon Stories Open Stories foundation team right now, along with our board of directors. But, Gerardo, we were talking about this. There's part of us that's like, oh, wow, okay. The cool thing about TikTok is that it reaches younger audiences and not just younger people, like old Old, middle and young. TikTok is a huge deal. So that's cool to be able to sort of like reach new groups of people. But then we're also. Geraldo, you were mentioning this, like, oh my gosh, do we, do we want to be responsible for triggering a faith crisis of a 14 year old, especially if their parents aren't super friendly to a faith crisis.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] And then we also just talked about it and it's like, do teenagers deserve informed consent? Like before you are going to serve a mission if you're gay and you know, are you, are you going to go into a mixed orientation marriage or if you're a woman and you want to become a scientist but the church is saying be a mommy, like do teenagers deserve informed consent? And you know, it's mixed because we're actually not trying to start a faith crisis for anyone actually. But we do want to provide people with information if it would be helpful to them. And we, you know, what did you think when we talked about that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:17] Yeah, it was just the idea like I think you mentioned that wouldn't you would have wanted to know earlier on that what, you know, now and yeah, probably I would, I would. So. So yeah, I think it's something we're trying and it's going really well and I'm excited about it.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Yeah. Yeah. So lots of good things happening. Again, we couldn't do without your support and. And we couldn't do without you, Gerardo. With you, Carah with you, Brooklyn. And with the Open Stories foundation donors. So, so many good things. Now without any further ado, time for a new time code. We're going to actually start this interview. So, Gerardo Sumano, you have a Mexican Mormon story and where should we begin?

History of the Mormon Church in Mexico

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:05] Yeah. So I was thinking maybe we can start by talking a little bit about the. What? I. I don't know a lot about it, but just the history of the church in Mexico specifically. From what I understand, the church arrived in Mexico in the late 1800s, but it didn't really start growing until the mid-1900s. It took 50, 60 years for it to start actually growing at a faster pace. It really picked up in the 1950s, 60s, especially with David O. McKay. It just the numbers were doubling every five years and yeah, the church grew super, super fast.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] And do you know when the Mexico temple was built? Would it have been built during the David Omakaya?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:11] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] I think so too.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] I'm not one of the early.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Temples outside of the U.S. yes.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:16] Yes. Yeah. One of the first things that the church did, around, I think it was the 60s, was building this high school. Huge high school. Like what do you call them here in the US when. When students go and they actually live on campus in high school.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Yeah, kind of. Kind of like a boarding school.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] It was in. Wasn't it in Mexico City?

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:41] Mexico City, Yeah. I think they had some in northern Mexico, but one.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Las Colonias, right? Yeah, the polygamy colonies. Polygamous colonies.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:50] Yeah, the polygamy colonies came from. Yeah, the Brigham Young era where he sent people from Aries that were living in Arizona to. To kind of like move to Mexico so they wouldn't be persecuted because of polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] That's 1860s and 70s.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:07] Yes, yes. Right, like five years before the manifesto was when they started moving.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Oh, 18. 1885 then.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:14] Yes, okay.

Carah Burrell [00:11:15] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:18] Yeah. But even there, like the church was not growing. It was mostly Americans who had moved to Mexico and it was like their own thing. And Mexicans would see them as like this weird people, you know, that live polygamy anyway, but this. The Beneto was this huge high school. Now it's been closed. Now it's. It's what they make. Made it into the Mexico City mtc.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] And that's in Mexico City.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:50] Yeah. But for the longest time, Mormon families would send their children to. To this high school and they would grow. They would go to high school and grow up in this super conservative Mormon boarding high school. So that helped a lot to the growth of the church, especially in that area.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:12] So there was a real excitement at the time. My. I'm going to talk about this a little bit more later, but at the time my grandma converted to the church in the 70s, there was a real excitement in Mormonism and just there was this peculiar people that had this fun activities and that they would do the cultural activities on weekends and stuff and just like a cool and interesting community to be part of. And so many people were getting baptized of every social class.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:56] So rich people, middle class people, they were getting baptized. And many of these families have continued for generations in the church in Mexico. So Mexico was conquered by Spain and basically the Catholic Church ruled in Mexico for a long time. So even after the independence. Yeah, it came with the separation of church and state came. But everyone in Mexico is Catholic, and not everyone, but most people are Catholic. It's the most prominent religion in Mexico just because that's. I mean, we were conquered by them basically.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:43] And the native Indians were forced to be converted to Catholicism. So, yeah, it's a very Catholic country. But yeah, Even with that, the church was able to grow super fast. And I think a lot of it had to do with this very strong and powerful message of, you know, in the McConkie era where like we would talk a lot about the apostasy and the great apostasy and like trash the Catholic Church and say how they're all wrong because they do this and that and they do baby baptisms and non consent and that doesn't count. So that approach I think really helped the church grow really fast was part of it.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] The approach of going crashed on infant baptism, on sprinkling versus immersion. And the Book of Mormon talks about the great and abominable church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:43] I think said that the Catholic Church was the great abominable church.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Church of the devil.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] In Mormon doctrine, they took that out. I mean listeners, those of you who are into this stuff will know this, but those who aren't literally first edition Mormon doctrine called the Catholic. Named the Catholic Church as the Church of the Devil.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:00] Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that helped a lot. Like just this very strong approach. Like you're in the, in the, the wrong religion and you have to be here with us.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] It's a way to differentiate the market. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:14] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] It carves out a market space for those who don't like Catholicism. Mormonism is your, is your religion because we're the non, we're the anti catholic kind of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:23] Yeah, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Institution.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:25] Yeah. And I used a lot of those arguments during my mission and really worked.

Carah Burrell [00:15:29] So is there anything to do with like people are interested in the way that the Book of Mormon took place perhaps?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:36] Oh yeah. So that was the big. Yeah, yeah, that's good you mentioned it. That's huge. Because Mexicans till this day, they're taught that they are the literal descendants of Lehi. So. So in the Book of Mormon. Yeah. I still get goosebumps of that. Yeah. Missionaries would come and tell you like this book was written by your ancestors and it was just this very emotional thing and that we, that we were able to have this record that we didn't know about that was talking about people that, that, that lived in here and that we are descendants from basically

John Dehlin [00:16:17] telling you your identity.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:18] Yeah, right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Your origins.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:20] Right. And, and this idea too. You know, the Book of Mormon talks a lot about the, the lineage and the fact that you, you come from the lineage. So I don't know, I grew, I grew up knowing that we Mexicans are the literal descendants of the House of Israel, while Americans are just adopted, the

John Dehlin [00:16:41] pure blood of Israel.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:41] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] You were the. You were the pure blood.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:43] Right, right. So. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] And Lamanita would be how you identify.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:50] Yeah. We're Lamanites. Yes. Yep. We're. We're the Lamanites. That's why our skin color is brown. I mean, that's explained. That's in the Book of Mormon. That. Where he explains that.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] So basically, you're the chosen pure blood of Israel.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:04] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And us white people aren't.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:08] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] So in some ways, even though you're kind of a, you know, the United States might say, oh, it's a lesser developed country or whatever. Yeah. But you guys are the pure blood of Israel. You're the ones who the Book of Mormon was written for.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:20] Yes. It wasn't written for us.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] You were the. You were the main.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:23] Right, yeah. The principles.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Say it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:27] Yeah, principles. Ancestors were the ones that. Yeah. Lived in America. Yeah. And

John Dehlin [00:17:35] we'll come back to that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:36] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:17:38] Tell us how you really feel.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:42] So.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] No, but I just. You feel special. Like, I. I remember serving Latin America. It's. The feelings are so polarizing now because I know you have strong emotions about this now, but I think you'd also admit that at the time, you felt there was so much pride in Latin America to be a Lamanite. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:00] Yep. Well, and the Book of Mormon talks about our history, about America getting conquered by the Gentiles and the Lamanite, and it just talks about our history. It's right there in the Book of Mormon. Yeah. Just a very exciting thing. But for some reason, I mean, and it probably wasn't just a Mormon church, but by the 2000s, the church really, the, the growth stopped to being so accelerated, so it started slowing down while

John Dehlin [00:18:36] you were a child there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:37] Yeah, yeah. Around the 2000s, I would say by that, by 2000s, most of the families that were being baptized were lower middle class or poor people. And by 2010, the growth really, really, really slowed down.

Church Growth and Activity Rates in Mexico

Carah Burrell [00:18:54] Was the activity rate in, like the wards and stakes also flatlining?

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:58] Yeah, yeah. Activity rate just went down like crazy.

Carah Burrell [00:19:03] Are they like collapsing stakes like I've heard in, like, Chile and others?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:06] Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about. About that. That is still happening. It was not. I don't think we had issues like Chile had where, like Jeffrey Ahan had to go and close so many stakes. But they're doing it right now more on the down low and like mixing stakes right now, putting closing down stakes and merging them. They're doing that a lot now in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] And are you bringing this up to kind of set the context for your upbringing, then to say, by the time you're paying attention, yeah, church is starting to slow its growth. Is that why you bring that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:44] Right, yeah. Because what I grew up in this time where like a lot of strong families were in my word, but not many people getting baptized. And the people getting baptized were not staying. So I. But then, but then I also grew up hearing the stories about my parents going to Oaxaca and baptizing hundreds of people. But I never saw that. And it probably was. Also I grew up in this very Catholic state. Another thing that I wanted to talk about is how Mormons see. Mormons in Mexico, see Mormonism, and they have this very folksy belief in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] You're talking about the members or the non.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:27] Yeah, members. Members in Mexico. They're very conservative religious zealots, most of them super conservative. It would be really, really weird to see a progressive Mexican Mormon. Most of them will be very, very religious or maybe like inactive. Like sometimes they just stop going. But not. Nothing like you see here in the US where like they know the history but they still like going. And they kind of try to make it work. Like nothing like that. Most members in Mexico are. Have a very folksy view of Mormonism. So they won't know about polygamy. They won't know about the hat and stone truth claim stuff. Nothing about Book of Abraham. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] And probably won't care about LGBT people. Oh yeah, Feminism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:24] Yeah. Mexico, it's pretty. It's a pretty homophobic country, I would say. Same sex marriage has been legalized in a lot of states, but. And the state I grew up in, it's still, is still illegal, so. So yeah, that doesn't help.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] Also I'm, you know, one of the most shocking race experiences of racism I've ever had was as a missionary in Guatemala and it was Guatemalan. On Guatemalan, in other words, it was a lighter skinned, higher class Guatemalan talking down to what she would have called an indio, someone who was a lower class, less educated, with darker skin. It was just blatant hateful racism right in front of my eyes. And I never realized how much. Just like with India, the colonization led to some serious racism. And I don't know, is that true

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:17] In Mexico it's 100. Yeah. The classes are very, very marked and

John Dehlin [00:22:22] undivided by skin color and education.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:25] Yeah. So I think we can start now with my, my parents story, how they joined Mormonism. And my parents have a really interesting. Both of them have really interesting Conversion stories. So I'll start with my dad. My dad grew up in Mexico City and he grew up super poor, like as a very poor family with five siblings. And he grew up as a, very early on as a child having to go out and sell on the streets, jello or like just going to the market and peeling fruits and, and stuff like that to make some money and bring home money. So that's kind of the low, not

John Dehlin [00:23:16] the lowest cost, but pretty, you know, lower class, super, super low cutting fruit in the market. You know, that's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah. My dad grew up super super poor, sometimes not having enough for food and stuff like that. So. Yeah. And all of his siblings grew up the same way, but he ended up going to college and got a degree in industrial engineering.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:47] And when he got his degree, he moved out from home and moved to a city close by Mexico City. And that's where he found out about the church. So how it happened was he, he was working at an office and then I think a new secretary was hired or an admin.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:11] And I think between the co workers, they kind of made bets on who would be the one to approach her and try to date her. So I think it was my dad's turn or something. So he tried to approach her and try to, made her make her his girlfriend.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:33] But he, she, she didn't really had any interest in him. So like, he would tell her like, let's go to the movies on, on, on Sunday. She believe I don't go out on Sundays. Or like, let's go drink coffee. And she's like, I don't, I don't drink coffee. And so finally he ends up finding out that she is Mormon. And not just Mormon, she's the bishop's daughter.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] So

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:04] at the end he ends up convincing her to kind of like date, but she was not taking it seriously because he was not a member of the church and he could kind of see that. And her birthday was approaching. And the night before her birthday, my dad went to the missionaries who lived right next to his, to his apartment. And he knocked on the door and told them, hey, missionaries, my name is whatever and I, I want to get baptized tomorrow.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:41] And this was after work, this was night. Like the missionaries were already home and a golden prospect. Right, right. The missionaries told him, like, well, we need to teach you some lessons and make sure you're prepared for your baptisms, for your baptism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:58] And my dad told them, well, if you don't baptize me tomorrow, you're never going to baptize me. In your life ever, so is your decision. So I think they. They did a call or something maybe to the mission prosecutors that they got authorization. So they just taught him the. The interview questions and they baptized him the next. The next day.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:24] And right after he got baptized, he was called. He didn't even know what the Book of Mormon was when he got baptized, but his first calling was seminary teacher, and it was a Book of Mormon class. So. So that's when he learned what the Book of Mormon was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:39] And then at some point, his girlfriend decided to go on a mission, which is not very common for women. Yeah. Back then, to go on missions. But she decided to go on a mission. He said, okay, I'm gonna wait for you.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:57] And I think they agreed on he. Him waiting. And so then she would come back and then marry. But. And my dad was called as a branch president during that time.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Whoa.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:10] Yeah, he was in this, like, really small branch, but he had, like, really got a good education. He was a smart person and he liked the church. He was called as the branch president.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] This is in dfa Districto Federal.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:26] Yep. No, it was not there. I think it's a city close by.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Okay. Yeah, near. Near Mexico City.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:32] Yeah. Yeah. And anyway, so she comes back and she tells him, hey, you know what? I can't marry you. Because when. If I marry you and when we have children and we have to tell them to go on their missions, they're going to be able to tell me, well, why would I. Why do I have to go if my dad didn't go?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:57] So, so she, so she told him. And I know because I'm telling you this, you're going to go on your mission, but I just want you to know I'm not going to wait for you. But so the stake president, I think, told my dad, well, now that you can't, you're not going to get married, you can't be the branch president for too much longer. We would rather have someone that's married. So you either have a choice of finding someone else or going on your mission. So he was 26 at the time, and he decided to sell everything he had and go on a mission. And he was called to Oaxaca, Mexico, which is probably one of the poorest states, if not the poorest state in Mexico.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:49] And the church was not super big in Oaxaca at the time. So while he was on his mission, he was able to open a lot of new areas and start a lot of new branches that later became stakes and warts and stakes.

Gerardo's Father Joins the Church

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Have you talked to Your dad about what his testimony was like? Because I think in my mind I stereotype or stigmatize someone who joined for a romantic interest that somehow that's an inferior way. But the truth is that's a really common way. People convert. It's one of the most common ways. But then of course, the testimony ends up growing. That's just kind of the spark. So have you ever talked to your dad about, like, what his testimony? Because to, to like, go on a mission in your mid-20s and to sell everything. That's branch president.

Carah Burrell [00:29:40] That's what I was wondering too. Like, did he talk to you growing up about how testimony bloom through all this or anything?

John Dehlin [00:29:45] Because especially when he's told he's not going to get the girl. Oh, well, then you'd think he'd bail. But he doesn't.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:50] Right?

John Dehlin [00:29:51] So he must have had testimony.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:53] He loved the church. He liked the church, and he was an avid reader. Like, I read the Book of Mormon several times. He believed it was true. And he was on the. In the true church. Oh, he was. Here's the other thing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:07] My grandma, my. My grandparents were really Catholic, so when he told, when, when he told them that he was gonna convert into Mormonism and then even going into his mission, they, they, she. My grandma basically shunned him. They.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:31] She told her, you can't come here to the house anymore. And pretty much, you're not our family. It was while, for. For a lot of Mormons would be a faith crisis, like when, when one of their children would lose their faith. That's. I, I feel like that's how my grandma felt that he was living, leaving the Catholic Church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:57] So I think a lot of those experiences make you really hold tight to your decision of changing church, churches, or religion. And that maybe was part of it. And also just he. He loved it. But on his mission was when he really, really converted and he became a really, really orthodox Mormon. During his mission, he was made, he worked in. He was. I don't know if you say call, but he was called to be a secretary in the mission really soon.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Did he have a. Do you know if he had a Mexican mission president?

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:36] Yeah, he had a Mexican mission president

Carah Burrell [00:31:39] and

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:41] he was a very, very conservative Mormon. Orthodox Mormon. He's mission president. So that's where he got it from. And then he was an AP for a long time too. I think around six months or something like that. So, yeah, he just really. His testimony really grew during, during that time. I grew up hearing his mission experiences like this super magical and incredible Experiences of baptizing a lot of people and super strong spiritual experiences and.

Carah Burrell [00:32:19] But that wasn't enough to get the girl though, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:22] Yeah, that was, that was enough. Anyway, so I'm going to stop there with my dad's story. I'm going to come back to my mom. So my, my mom, from what I understand, she was around five years old when my grandma, she was a single mom. She had recently divorced or separated from my grandpa.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:47] I think one of the main reasons was because he was an alcoholic. So my grandma was raising five children, my mom being one of them by herself. And my grandpa did help a lot on with the money. So he never just left them and didn't take care of them. He actually did take care of them.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:13] And when my mom was around five years old, my grandma saw the missionaries walking like these American missionaries and called them. My grandma, during his childhood, she had a huge fascination for the English language. So she learned English from a very young age.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:37] Going, going to classes and stuff. That's for what I understand. And so when she saw American missionaries, she called them and asked them what they were doing. And that's when right after that my grandma and her four, four of her five children converted into Mormonism. Anyway, so from what I understand also like there was a school for, for Mormons in, in Merida. Well, my, where my mom grew up. And so my mom went to like elementary, Mormon elementary school.

Carah Burrell [00:34:13] And

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:15] anyway, so she grew up in the church loving. Definitely helped my grandma a lot with raising her kids and to being moral, good, good people. And at some point a couple from Idaho Falls were visiting Merida and they went to my grandma's ward and this couple, my grandma, because she knew English, she approached them and started talking to them and they became friends and they told my grandma, okay, you have two daughters and we would like to offer you for, have to have your daughters come to the U.S. learn English and just see what the culture is to learn more about the church and just see how the church is lived in the US So they offered that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:17] And so my mom, she was a teenager to live with them as like an exchange? Yeah, like as an exchange student. Yeah. So my mom and her and her sister, they, they came for, for a summer to see how it was lived in Idaho Falls and, and they liked it. So my, my aunt came first for the first year and then she went back to Mexico and then my, my mom came and she lived with them for a year and she didn't know any English and when she came, but now that's what exchange programs are for. So she, she, she learned English and, and loved it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:59] She loved the US Loved the culture, and that's when she really learned how Mormonism should be lived. That women actually go on missions, that marriage should be like a priority. Family, home, evenings. And just. Yeah, I mean, it was Shelly, Idaho Mormon family. Yeah, super devout Mormon family. Yeah. From Shelley, Idaho. So. Oh, I don't fall. She went to Shelley High School.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:32] But yeah, and she, after that she went back to Mexico. And so this family, their priority was, well, they told them, you're going to come to the US but after the year after your visa is done, you have to come back, you go back to Mexico, you can't stay here. And so my mom went back, but she loved the US So much. I don't know a lot about this, but she was able to meet a family from Arizona and they offered her to come for another year. So she came back and lived with another Mormon family in Arizona for another

Carah Burrell [00:37:11] year

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:14] and then moved back to Mexico. Okay. She was 20 when she decided she was dating this guy in Mexico, in Merida, a member of the church. And she really wanted to get married because she'd seen it right, like here in the US How Mormons get. Get married super fast. And that. That's how it is. So she really wanted to get married. And she asked this guy, hey, so what should we do? Should we get married or should I go on a mission? And he, he was a returned missionary and he told her, well, you should ask the Lord. My mom was like, no, that's not the answer I want.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] She was like, take me now. Is that what you mean?

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:00] Yeah. So I think she kept asking him for a couple, a couple times, like, what should we do? Should we get married or should I go on mission? Every time the answer was ask the Lord. So she finally decided to pray and ask the Lord if she had to go on a mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:21] And this is when she had her first and her first super powerful spiritual experience, I would say. And I've heard my mom tell this story so many times where she went into her room with her scriptures and she kneeled and asked God, God, do I, Do I need to go on a mission?

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:43] And she opened her scriptures and I mean, this is not my story. So I don't remember the scriptures she read, but she. The first scripture she read was this scripture about, about mission service. And she was like, okay, this has to be a coincidence. This can't be. So she closed her scriptures and prayed again and asked God to Tell her, do I have to go on a mission? And she opened the scriptures again and another different scripture about mission service.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:14] And she still was reluctant. She was like, no, maybe this still is a coincidence. And she closes her scriptures, prays again and opens it. And another scripture about mission service. And that's when my mom said. She started bawling and she's like, I have to go on my mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:35] And by that point, my, my. My mom is the youngest of all of her siblings, so she was the only one left living with my grandma. And when she told my grandma, my grandma told her, like, don't go on your mission. They're going on a mission. I don't want to stay alone. I'll buy you a car if you stay.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Whoa. And that's the opposite of what we get here in the States.

Carah Burrell [00:39:59] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:01] And my mom, my grandma was, Was really Mormon. Like, she, she loved the church, but it was not a thing for, for women, especially Mexico, to go on missions. But she was called to Oaxaca too, and same mission as my dad. And she had a really hard time her first months on the mission. I mean, it was a. It's a very poor state, having to walk on the sun and super steep hills. And she was about, I think she was about to come back, like, really early on on her mission. She's like, this is not for me. But at some point, I think, well, she, she ended up deciding to, to stay and, and complete. And she, she had a lot of success and she was the highest baptized, baptizing missionary for. For several months.

Carah Burrell [00:41:03] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:04] Yeah. And my parents didn't really talk when. Even though they served on the same mission at the same time, they really talked. My dad, I think he was already an AP or something when, when she arrived or something like that, but she knew who she was, but they, they never really talked.

Parents Meet on the Same Mission

John Dehlin [00:41:28] One thing I'm curious about is

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:32] the

John Dehlin [00:41:32] proportion of gringo gringos to, you know, Mexicanos in the mission at that time. You probably don't know the percentage distribution, but that, that was always. We might end up talking about that during your mission. Kind of like the, the gringos versus the natives was kind of a big deal.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:51] Yeah. Yeah. No, there, there was a weird, and I think they've said it before, that it was weird how balanced it was between Hispanics and American missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:02] But there was no American sister missionaries. Most, if not all the sister missionaries were Latinas. That, that was something interesting.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Yeah. But because it still wasn't a thing here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] For girls to go.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:21] Yeah. Maybe just in, like, Very conservative. And I think most of we're being called to Europe and stuff like that. I don't know.

Carah Burrell [00:42:28] What year are we talking about here again?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:31] The 90s. Early 90s. Yeah. Anyway, so the ladies. So my dad was about to finish his mission, and on the last tour with the mission president, where they had to travel and go and visit the missions and for the zone conferences on the van, it was the mission President and the two APs. The two APs, just like my dad, the other AP, just like my dad had already. He had a career already. He was around the same age as my dad, so older.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:06] And so the mission president told them, elders, when you go back to your homes, you can't go back to fool around. And you. You have to go back and know who you're gonna marry and marry them fast. And you are gonna marry one of my daughters.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:32] And you're like, what do you mean your daughters. Your daughters are. Are young. It's like, well, the. The sister missionaries. That's what. That's what I mean. And you're gonna ask me about any mission, any sister missionary you want, and I'm gonna tell you about their personality and anything you want to know about them and how your life is going to be if you marry them.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] So basically, the mission president's playing the role of matchmaker, like yenta and fiddler on the roof, and he's basically trying to matchmaker, matchmaker.

Carah Burrell [00:44:06] And he knows all of their transgressions probably too.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:08] Right, right. And my parents have said that that was one of the focus on my. Of that mission president to marry a lot of couples that had served in the same mission at the same time. So a lot of couples came out of that. That time and that mission anyway. So that whole tour, he. They were just asking, what about this sister? What about this sister? And he would. He would just tell him. And on his last interview, right before he was gonna go home, the mission president told him, okay, Elder Sumanov, you are. You are gonna tell me three sisters that it can be the ones that we already talked about.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:54] You can ask me any more questions about any other you want, but you have to give me three. And you're going to go and try to marry the first one. If it doesn't work, you're going to go on the second one, and if it doesn't work, you're going to go to the third one. The third one doesn't work, you're going to go back to the first one, but you're not going to deviate from those three.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:14] So my dad named the 1, 2 and 3. My mom ended up being the third one. And my mom was still on the mission. And he went back home, and he went back home to nothing. He had literally nothing because he had sold everything to go on his mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:39] But he started contacting this sister missionary. He started with the first one. The first one rejected him. And the second one, I can't remember what happened, but he decided to go straight to the third one, to my mom.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:52] And they've had some communication after my dad had returned from his mission, because my mom had already returned to her, to Merida. And then my dad finished his mission. So some of the. Some investigators that my dad had in. In Oaxaca, his last months there were moving to Merida, where my mom was from. So he started sending them her letters, like, hey, can you take care of these investigators who are moving to Merida and just show them around, show them where the church building is, whatever. So they have had a little communication through there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:27] So when my dad came back, tried the first one, didn't work. And then he flew to Merida to see my mom and just really quickly tells her, I want you to marry me. And my mom, by that point was already dating someone, but that someone was not proposing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:47] And she really wanted to get married. So she said, yes, I'll marry you. I mean, you are Elder Sumano. Everyone, like, knows who you are and from our mission. And you were a good missionary. You were the ap.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] By the way, I have a dear friend, Steve Caldwell, who served in a mission with your dad. Shout out to Steve and Mindy, and Steve remembers your dad and really wants to meet with you because he has such fond memories of knowing your dad. Yeah. So your dad must have made a mark because a friend of mine remembers your dad.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:18] Yeah, 100. I think my dad did leave a mark there.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:24] Anyway, so she said yes, my dad goes back to Mexico City because he. He had already found a job there. And the original plan was that they were gonna get married and they were going to move to Mexico City. But at some point they decided, no, Merida is a way safer city. I think it was when my dad visited Merida and he was just amazed by how beautiful of a city it is, how safe it is, and just a great place to raise kids. So they decided, okay, we're gonna move to Merida. But then that meant that my dad had to find a job there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:56] And there was only like a three month period in between. When my dad, my. My dad proposed, she Said yes. And. And then getting. Getting married, I think just days before the wedding, he could. Still couldn't find a job. And my mom was like, well, if you can't find a job, I don't think we can get married.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:14] But I think he's told this experience a couple times where he prayed and told God, like, hey, I already did what you wanted me to do and went on my mission. I served you. I need you to make this work. And he found a job just a few days before the wedding, a really good job. And so they ended up getting married in the temple. In the temple in Mexico City. And then the party was in Merida.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] And so people were probably excluded, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:47] Yes. So my. All. All my dad's family who are not members, they're Catholic.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] How would a. How would a Mexican Catholic family receive the news? I mean, weddings, I'm guessing, are a big deal in Mexico, maybe even more so than here. I don't know. But how would a Catholic Mexican family receive the idea that they actually can't attend the wedding?

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:10] I think it was devastating. And I missed this part, this important part of the story where my dad. My grandpa. My dad's dad died while my. My dad was serving his mission in Oaxaca. And he went. He just went back to the funeral to Mexico City and just, I think, couple days. And went back on his mission. Yeah, he attended the funeral.

John Dehlin [00:49:36] So that's unique because most missionaries don't get to go home.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:39] Yeah. Yeah. The mission president told him. I mean, he knew about his situation. Like, super Catholic family. They were already disappointed that he was on a mission preaching against the Catholic Church. And then his dad died.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] I just want to drive this point home. For non Mormon listeners, it is normal for a missionary, a Mormon missionary, to not return home when loved ones die and to be told, you need to stay on your mission. I had two grandparents die. I didn't go home to see either of their funerals. I just stayed on the mission. My brother got married while I was on my mission. I didn't go home. I missed my brother's wedding. So I just want to. That's just a weird thing about quirky Mormon mission culture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:20] But, yeah, when I went on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:22] Got to go.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:22] Yeah. When I went on my mission, my dad told me, if I die, don't come back. Just finish your mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:30] Yeah. Anyway. But he just went back for a couple days, and then. So. So my grandma was already hurt, like. Like he had left them after my. My grandpa had just died, and she was a single mom. With five other kids. Just. Yeah, just. Yeah. So I think it was devastating for.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] For her.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:53] And my dad says that it never. It didn't really. Their relationship didn't get better until I was born.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] So two years really put a strain on the relationships. Yeah. I was just gonna. We were. We were having this conversation, me and you before. But, you know, I'm always conscious about how the rest of the world sees the Mormon Church, and I was. It was interesting for me to learn that in. In Spanish, at least in Mexican Spanish, there isn't a word for cult.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] So I was wondering how your parents viewed Mormonism. Your. Your mom, your dad's family, how they viewed Mormonism. But just even this idea of a cult, it sounds like there isn't even a word for that or even maybe the idea of that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] Which is weird because high demand religions often prey on developing countries. But this idea wouldn't have even occurred to your family.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:44] Well, yeah, yeah. Other religions will call us a secta.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] Secta.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:51] It's a secta. But for Mormons, it's not triggering at all because the word sect is on the screen. Scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Yeah. So just means a denomination.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:02] Right, Right, exactly. But yeah, for. For other. Other religions. Yeah. Like, the word sector can mean something more like. Like a cult, maybe, but it's not triggering for Mormons. Like, it. Like the word cult is here in

Carah Burrell [00:52:17] the US Is there any kind of like TV movies or videos or any. The way that, like, American media kind of portrays Mormons? Is there any, like, negative stereotypes that are common in Mexico?

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:28] Well, most. A lot of people believe that Mormons are polygamists because they were polygamous. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:36] Yeah. So that's the first thing. Someone that doesn't know anything about Mormonism is going to think that you have seven wives if you're a Mormon.

Carah Burrell [00:52:46] Are there current polygamist sex in Mexico right now as well?

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:49] Yeah. So a big branch of the people that went. Moved to Mexico to live polygamy. They stopped polygamy when the manifesto, I think second manifesto came. But some of them, the split and stayed in Mexico living polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] And the main state where that all happened is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:15] yeah. So anyway, so. So they got married, moved to Merida, and. And I was born just soon after that.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] What year?

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:26] 1995.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:28] Yeah, yeah. And I was born in this very.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Hey, Gerardo, can I check in with you on one quick thing before we do your story?

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] I am always struck with the tension between how beautiful the Mormon church experience can be worldwide and Then when I think about in Latin America, like I got to see, you know, there's poverty everywhere, including the United States. But when you see poverty in a place like Latin America, it's a next level of poverty relative to what a kid growing up, even lower, lower class, suburban, the United States, which I was, it's still a next level of poverty. You know, when I talk about like cutting fruit in the markets, I understand a little bit more about what that means. And it's something that someone who is raised lower class in the US just wouldn't have a sense for what type of poverty we're talking about because even the lowest classes in the United States, other than like homeless people, are probably living with, with a lot more means and resources than, than somebody who's growing up in poverty in Latin America.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] And then I've also seen kind of the bar, the bar culture in Latin America, the homelessness culture and just poverty in general. And how sometimes in, in towns or whatever you can have just men who like, they go to work on the farm, they come home and they drink and you know, women are raising kids on their own and there's just, there's a lot, like in any culture, there's a lot that can go wrong. So when you think about, you know, we're talking the 80s and 90s here and yes Mormonism comes in as kind of a colonizing force, but at the same time they're providing this family that could go lots of different ways or this young 20something man or this young woman.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] Things can go a lot of different ways. All of a sudden it's like be moral, don't drink, don't smoke, be good, be kind, serve others, go on a mission, learn how to communicate and then get married quick and have kids quick. And now you're going to be building, becoming a model Mormon family in Mexico. On the one hand I'm seeing like that can be a super positive influence to take the religion out of it. It's just like bringing structure, bringing family values, bringing morality and meaning and purpose and even helping them become more raised to a higher educational or socioeconomic status just because of that structure.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] So on the one hand, so many good things I would guess would be associated probably in your minds, but definitely in your parents minds with the influence of the Mormon Church on their young adult lives.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:17] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] Is that fair?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:19] I agree. 100 the church changed my mom's family's life and changed my dad's life for the better. Like my, and here, here's the thing too. My My parents checked a lot of the boxes that about like, oh, you had my, my mom. You had a dad that was alcoholic. You have a single mom. Just this where this life experiences that make that Mormonism comes and fill those holes or, or improves the life of someone that has lived those experiences. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] If you compare your dad to his siblings.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:06] Siblings. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] The church seems to have had a very positive influence.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:09] Yeah. For a very, very long time. That's what it looked like.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:14] I think that has been a huge part of my dad's testimony. The fact that look at my siblings and like look at where I ended up.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] That's real.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:24] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:57:25] By your fruits you shall know them. Did you grow up with that phrase in your house ever? About like look at our positive fruits of being this Mormon family. You can compare it to what we came from and yep, then it's de facto true.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] And part of the reason I bring that up is to ground us. You know, there's this Luna Lindsay Corbin has taught us that one of the signs of a height of. Of an unhealthy organization is black and white thinking. Right. And it's really easy for post Mormons to fall into this black and white thinking where once they're mad at the church, it's just the church does is bad and all the world would be better if not just Mormonism. But all organized religion disappeared. And I only bring this up not as a defense, but just as helping us kind of stay grounded and fair and non binary that like I saw firsthand, the church have a very positive influence on many of the families that we taught.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] And the church does a lot of good in the developing, developing world and I would even argue the developed world. And I was just checking in with you to see if you would actually confirm that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:29] Yeah, yeah, I'm sure your parents would. Yeah. Where I, where I see a big difference, I think is in the, in how much the church supports poor people. In Mexico you would, you would hear. Here is. It's pretty common to hear someone that has lost their job here in the US to have their mortgage paid by the church for several months or just the church helping so they can keep their lifestyle as they're currently living. If they are going through like a hard economic problem that does not happen in Mexico. In Mexico, the church wants to give this impression.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:16] I mean even though we have these beautiful temples and these beautiful chapels, I feel like in some way the church wants to give this impression that the church is not wealthy. They really stress to bishops that they shouldn't be Giving out. They shouldn't be giving just everyone food or just providing for their needs. They need to help members and people that need it to make sure that they actually need it and that they're doing everything they can to support themselves.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:49] So that makes bishops to really restrain the amount of money or the amount of resources that they're willing to give to people or members that are struggling. That's where I see a huge difference between the US And. And Mexico. But yeah, the church does really help on many other aspects of. Of people's lives. And as soon as you fit the mold, as soon as you are not gay or like have a family member that's gay or.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] Yeah, there's a lot of good you're saying, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] Because there's also the community and people really support each other.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:31] Yeah. Yep. Yep. Okay, so let's go on.

Growing Up Mormon in a Mexican Family

John Dehlin [01:00:37] You're born. Gerardo was born.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] 1995. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:41] Yeah. I grew up in a very, very orthodox Mormon home. Like I've told you before. Like, my parents never drank Coke. Like Coke was a. No, no in our house. Because my parents, they were taught on their missions by their mission president that they shouldn't drink Coke. Wouldn't watch TV on Sundays at all.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:03] Sundays were just. Was just going to church and going home and just being home all day. Not even like going to the park or do something recreational with the family. Like that's. No, no, it's just being home and reading the scriptures or watching church movies or listening to church music.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:23] Even general conference for. For most of my childhood and youth, even though we were allowed to have general conferences at some point, for example, to watch it at home through Internet or. My dad one year bought an anthena to be able to watch it at home was just one year he decided that, no, it was better to go to the church building and dress up on our Sunday. Sunday clothes and go watch general conference and sit through the whole. Whatever hours. General conferences. And we wouldn't miss one single session.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] It's 10 hours.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:02] Yep. How many kids are in your family? So just two. So my sister was born when I was five years old. And so is it a thing for.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] For Mexican Mormon families to have super big families? Or is that not as much of a thing in Mexico to have like four kids or six kids or eight

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:23] kids for some, but not as much as here in Utah. Yeah. I don't know why my parents decided just to have two. Two children. I think a lot of it had to do with. They were having. I mean, they only met each other a couple times before they got married. They've really struggled throughout their marriage, just their, their compatibility. And also another thing that I, I forgot to mention about how the church may not be as good and sometimes in Latin America at least, Mexico has a very strong misogynistic culture. Like machismo is huge. And when that's combined with the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Patriarchy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:07] Patriarchy plus machismo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:09] Yeah. That's just like a bomb.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Is it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:13] Yeah. And I saw it with my parents. That's been.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Give us some examples of what that might look like if. And again, your parents might watch. I've actually met your mom and she's lovely. This isn't a bag or criticize anyone. It's just culturally to describe people's experiences. So it's not your dad's fault, not your mom's fault. We're all victims of the patriarchy or we're all influenced by patriarchy and our cultures and without the spirit of criticizing your dad. Yeah, I'd love to hear what patriarchy plus machismo looks like.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:47] It's just one thing. Like, my mom loves working. She loves working and being active and having stuff to do. Honestly, she's never said this, but honestly, I just don't think she loved being a mom. I mean, she loved us. She was a, she was awesome to both me and my sister. But I don't think she loved being a mom. She, she loved working and that was a big struggle for my dad that she liked working and that was like.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] She's not the only. Like I, I've had in retreats I've held. There are lots of women that feel super guilty. They love their kids.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:21] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] But they're a better mom by working and not being a stay at home mom. They're a better mom that way. So it's not to say a woman who doesn't love being a stay at home mom, doesn't love her kids or even love being a mom. It's just she might not be built to be a stay at home mom.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Does that make sense? Is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:39] Yeah. And yeah, so that was a really real struggle with my mom. At a certain point times she would want to work and my dad would give her a really hard time on that. And I don't know, just, just things like my dad was in leadership.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] He didn't like that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:00] Yeah. And my dad was in leadership for a very long time. So I, I can't give you right now specific examples, but there's always this like Look, I'm this. I'm in the stake presidency. You are the wife of the state, you know, like, and kind of like your responsibilities are to keep the house. Even though my parents did very well economically, like, we had people helping to clean the house, and we would pay them, for most of my childhood and youth, it was still my mom's responsibility to make sure that everything was working, that the housekeeping assignments or jobs were being done, you know, to just those kind of things. But. Yeah, anyway, so.

Carah Burrell [01:05:54] And it sounds like from the very beginning of maybe their courtship, you said that they got married so fast, and, like, from their very first interaction, she probably knew him as, like, the AP of the mission. And too bad sisters can't have those types of positions in the mission, or else maybe he would have been like, oh, I gotta marry this chick, because she was the one who was the hot stuff on the mission. And I think that just sets up, like, this uneven power dynamic for maybe the very beginning. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:20] It's just a typical Mormon family, though. When we go on Sundays, we. We. We. We pretend everything is great. We give talks and talk like our family's doing great. But then behind the scenes, there's a lot of fighting. My parents fought a lot. A lot.

Carah Burrell [01:06:40] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:42] Yeah, but you have to keep up appearances.

Carah Burrell [01:06:45] Did you feel that pressure since you were a young kid?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:48] Yeah, I always saw that. That we were definitely trying to portray something different at church, but at some. In some ways, I liked it. I liked people at church seeing us as, like, the perfect orthodox Mormon family. And being part of that was something. I like people. My dad was in the bishopric for a long time, Stake presidency for a long time. So just getting. Getting that attention from people was. Was nice.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:16] You don't sit in the. In the chapel to watch General Conference in a suit and tie because it's a spiritual experience.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:22] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:07:23] It's probably to be seen sometimes, but.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] Yeah, often it's not.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] And I was just gonna say that it sounds. You know, we always have this idea of a Utah Mormon. And that can mean two different things. Sometimes in Mormonism, a Utah Mormon means a Mormon that doesn't take their Mormon Mormonism seriously. And because it's the host culture here, people goof off and whatever. But there's all this also this idea of, like, Utah Mormons being, like, the most orthodox, The Bruce R. McConkey, Joseph Fielding Smith types of Mormons. And it sounds like that's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:53] That's my parents.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] That's. That that was you guys, which is kind of interesting. That you guys were probably more orthodox and conservative than a huge percentage of the Utah Mormons.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] Because you were really living it. You know, I've seen that outside of Utah, too.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Did you guys do the family meeting, scripture study, all that stuff?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:16] Sometimes, like. Like for periods of time, like, for example, general conference zone gave a talk about how important it is. And then like for a few months after general conference, we would be doing it and then stop. But yeah, my dad would. Really, really. Especially when I went into my adolescence, my dad would try to have family home evening every week, I think, just to make sure I. I wouldn't go off the rails or something.

Carah Burrell [01:08:46] Did you have like a developing testimony throughout your childhood?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:49] Yeah, so that's where I was going. So here. Here's where it gets interesting. So I grew up hearing this story where we didn't have. The only temple in Mexico was the Mexico City Temple. So my parents, when they would have to go. Go to the temple, they would have to go there. And so we would travel.

Carah Burrell [01:09:12] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:17] This one time. So how we would work is my mom would go and do a session, and then my dad would stay outside with me, and then they would. My mom would stay outside and then my dad would go in and do a session.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:28] And my mom, I think, was inside the temple doing a session, and my dad was with me right outside the temple. I don't remember this, but they told the story a lot of times. My dad was holding me. And right outside the temple, you could see through the doors because they're glass doors, and you could see the lobby of the temple.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:55] And he says that I pointed out something inside. And I said, hey, dad, who are those angels that are right there inside the temple? And my dad looked and there was no one in the lobby. And I said, yeah, right there. Don't you see them? And my dad didn't see anyone. So I grew up hearing this story of me.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] You don't remember this?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:24] No, I don't remember this, but that at some point I saw angels in the Mexico City temple and that meant

John Dehlin [01:10:32] a lot to them. Yeah, but it clearly.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:34] Yeah, you know, here's a. Here's an interesting thing. So I got baptized at 8. Obviously, kind of. I already knew by that point I had already started developing attractions to. Towards men. I. From a very, very young age, I was attracted to men. And I knew that there was something wrong with that. I think by my baptism, separate from

John Dehlin [01:10:59] Mormonism in Mexican culture.

Carah Burrell [01:11:01] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:01] Yeah, yeah. And by my baptisms. I think from what I remember, I was expecting the, the baptisms to clean me from. From those attractions in some probably abstract way. That's what I was thinking.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] Wow, that's young.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:19] Yeah, super young. And after the baptism, I told my dad that I had had this experience of hearing a voice, the spirit or whatever, telling me very distinctively, you are doing the right thing. But I know, I remember telling this to my dad, but I made up that story. I know I made it up. And I made it up because I wanted my dad to feel proud of me that I had a spiritual experience on my baptism. Isn't that interesting? An 80 year old made up a story about having a spiritual experience

John Dehlin [01:12:06] because you knew it meant so much to your parents.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] What kid doesn't want to please their parents?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:10] And I heard my dad telling this story a few times after that.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:16] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:19] Learning to, I don't want to say it sinisterly, but learning to lie.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:22] From a very young age.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] To please your parents.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:25] Right, right. And having to hide the fact that I was attracted to men too. To guys.

John Dehlin [01:12:31] Yeah. Never have to learn to lie.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:35] So I had to give a face on my parents, but. And put this mask, kind of like the super believing person and, and a spiritual person. But no, kind of like I felt like I was trying to compensate maybe because of my attractions towards men. Maybe, I don't know, this would have

Carah Burrell [01:12:52] happened like starting maybe 6, 7 years old before, if it's before your baptism. So do you have like specific.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:57] Probably like seven?

Carah Burrell [01:12:59] Yeah, like, oh, I'm going to be in trouble if I, you know, continue.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:03] I don't know if this was before my baptism, but at some point I asked my mom. I can't remember exactly what I asked, but I asked, is it bad when two men are together or marry each other or something like that? And she explained, oh, yeah, that's really bad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:19] That's a really bad thing. And she kind of like explained that God made man and woman and blah, blah, blah. I remember being in the back of the car and my mom was driving when this happened. Anyway, so by age 12, I was for sure attracted to men. And so one of the things is, before adolescence, I was also attracted to women, so to girls.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:53] And I would talk to my parents about that. Very enthusiastic. There was a girl at, in school that I was attracted to. I would talk to them about it. Maybe just trying to compensate for the fact that, I don't know, I like boys. And something also interesting. Well, it's not interesting. I think a lot of gays have this where you like A lot of girly things. So I like where I like my sister toys, but not. And not the toys that my parents bought me, like cars and that kind of stuff. I was interested in makeup and when my mom would do her makeup, I was, I, I was interested in skirts and high heels that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:35] Those kind of stuff. And my parents did notice that there was kind of like maybe something off, so they would try to make me go do sports, like put me on soccer teams and stuff. And I wouldn't last because I hated it.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] You did?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:48] Yeah.

Childhood Faith, Sexuality, and Youth Programs

John Dehlin [01:14:48] So stereotypical, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:51] Yeah. And so. But at some point the attractions towards women just. Just diminished or disappeared mostly. And my attractions towards men just ramped up. So when, when I was a youth, I, I was attracted to men a lot. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:16] And this was when I was received the ironic priesthood at priesthood and was made a deacon. And then soon after that, the deacons president. And I had a really hard time on my youth in the church because being the deacons or the teacher's president, I had the responsibility of the less active guys of making the activities for the rest of the guys on the quorum for mutuals on Thursdays. And they obviously would want to play sports or do like manly things. And I was not into that. And I could not relate with these guys, with these people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:02] So I had a really hard time feeling guilty and receiving a lot of crap from my bishop about me not doing enough to fulfill my responsibility as the deacons or teachers president. And I'm feeling bad about. Because I just couldn't identify with this straight man.

Carah Burrell [01:16:22] Were people catching on at all? Were you teased whatsoever? Like. Yeah, people could tell there's something.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:27] Yeah, I was teased toward and, and bullied probably a lot in fifth, sixth grade, seventh grade.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Out of the church or in the church? Both.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:42] Both. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:44] Like in, in the US there's he's so gay or he's a sissy. There, There were. I won't say some of the words, but there are slurs.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] Comparable slurs.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:53] Yeah. In Spanish. Yes. Yeah. So. So yeah, I would be bullied in school up until I, I started high school. Like, it stopped by junior high. Like a lot of the strongest bullying. But yeah, at church I would say it was not so much. I did, I do remember a couple experiences where I was bullied by guys at church, but mostly it was school. And I was the only member in my school too, because my, my parents did well economically. I went to private schools, bilingual schools where I learned English.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] So that's a luxury.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:38] Yeah. So most of the friends that I made during, during, during that, during that time. Well, they were. They're not Mormons. Before high school, I knew I was attracted to guys, but I hadn't accepted to myself that I was gay. Is this weird thing that's you? Yeah, we're like, you know, you're attracted to guys and maybe had some contact with porn and masturbation, but you still don't accept yourself as gay or wouldn't say, I'm gay. But in high school, two of my friends or girls, they asked me, at one point, they asked me, hey, are you gay? And I first, I told them no, and then, and then thought about it a little bit more and decided maybe I should just tell someone. So I told them, yeah, I'm gay.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Around what age?

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:33] Probably 15.

John Dehlin [01:18:35] Yeah, they were the first he came out to. Yeah, that's a big deal. I'm glad you were able to come out that young.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:40] Yeah. And they. Yeah, so they. And, and soon after, I just told the rest of my friends in high school. I really made really good relationship. The bullying had, like, stopped by that point. There were a couple gay guys on in, in that high school, so it was, it was not a common thing, but it was just like a little more accepting thing. I, I think. Well, my friends were like, oh, that's so cool that you're gay, and blah, blah, you know, and my, my friends, I had guy friends too, who accepted it, and heterosexual friends, and they're fine with it.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] So this is blowing my mind a tiny bit because I'm thinking about my high school experience and there was not one. You know, I grew up in the late 80s, mid, mid to late 80s in high school. Not one out open LGBT person in the whole school. And then at some point, Magic Johnson, the AIDS stuff happens and there starts to become more awareness of this. And then you get the Ellen time period where this is very US centric, but like Ellen at some point comes out as gay and that's a big thing, and she like, loses her job, but then she comes back, but it hasn't been until kind of, I don't know, the mid-2000s, and then Prop 8, where it starts to become more discussed, more popular, et cetera. So I'm just trying to imagine you're coming out as openly gay in a Mexican private high school as a Mormon, around what year.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:17] To like 2000, 2010.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Okay. Yeah, Ellen would have been okay. So that makes a little more sense. So I'm wondering about whether there was any safety risk for you or social risk. It sounds like that was not a big deal. But then I'm also wondering how you kept that from your family.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:35] But you had no Mormons, so that's one way.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] And no Mormons in your high school.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:40] Yep. Yep. But I did have one friend that was, that was a member of the church, my best friend. And I did tell him. And he was the son of another stake president.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Oh. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:50] And. But he didn't.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] It wasn't a scandal.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:52] No. Like he, he was, he was his heterosexual and. But he, he was like, mom, whatever. It's fine.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] That's cool.

Carah Burrell [01:21:00] It's like John was talking about how, like Ellen and Kyle Ashworth's interview the other day, he was kind of talking about how there's, you know, different celebrities that spur a lot of coming out or more like normalizing, you know, different ideas around gender and sexuality. Was there anyone that you looked up to in any time period in your youth that you remember feeling more comfortable with your sexuality to be able to do that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:21] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So growing up, there was this family in, in, in our ward who were neighbors, they lived right down the street who had a son who went to, who went on his mission, came back to New York, came back and went to byu. And even though he was not out at that point, everyone in the ward and people in the stake would talk about him being gay. And even though he was going to byu, he was just out and. Well, and doing stuff with guys and just, just not being very active at a church. So there was this big rumor as he became kind of like my, like this person that I looked up to, like, oh, it can be done. You know, like, you can be more. You can be gay and like, and, and be happy and be fine and, and have fun. So that was probably my.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] It wasn't, it wasn't talked about as in a super negative way, like, he's a horrible, bad, terrible person.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:39] Oh, in the church. Yes. I didn't see him that way. Was like, I have those attractions. I don't, I don't think he's this horrible person.

John Dehlin [01:22:47] So. So even though others were talking.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Especially my religion, religious context, you didn't internalize that negativity for you. You were looking up to the guy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] That's really. Yeah. That is interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:59] Yeah. Yeah. Because at that point that, by that point I was not in high school. I was not really interested in the church. I mean, I was still doing everything I was going to.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] It looked like you were.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:08] I was going to seminary at 5, 5, 45am Every day I was going

John Dehlin [01:23:16] to church and president of all the.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:18] Yeah, he helped a lot that I had. I was a really good student, and I helped my parents a lot with the family business. So they just saw me as a good, healthy son, so they were not worried about me. And that allowed me to have this kind of like, two lives where I could present myself as the orthodox Mormons to my parents and church, and then at the same time being openly out gay to my friends. And on the weekends when I went out with my friends.

Carah Burrell [01:23:53] Did you have any kind of plan for the future that, like, at some point I'm gonna have to leave the church over this, or at some point I'm gonna have to, like, get married to a woman or, like. Did you have any exit plan of what you thought you were gonna do?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:03] Yeah, my exit plan was exactly what that. That got a friend had. Had done. I was going to go to BYU and then just be gay. Openly gay while still staying?

Carah Burrell [01:24:18] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:19] Yeah. And I had talked to him a few times, and he had told me a little bit about how it was to be gay at byu.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Whoa, how old are you at this point?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:28] Okay, this was probably just like.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] And I don't want to get ahead of the timeline.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:32] Right. Like 16. Okay, 16. A little bit later, actually, probably 15. 16. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:24:39] And was he saying that he was dating men on, like, on the DL while attending byu?

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:44] I can't remember exactly how.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] How it was, but say you were 15 or 16.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:48] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Okay. I just have to say this is a gay Mormon kid, orthodox gay Mormon kid in Mexico in high school, finding out about another gay Mormon kid and talking to that kid about being gay in an open way. I bet that doesn't happen here in the US Very often. So this is, you know, I can't imagine some kid in Draper who's gay finding out about a kid three years older who's gay and Draper and then them talking about what it's like to be gay at byu. This seems like kind of a remarkable story.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:15] Well, homosexuality was not talked about in the church at all.

John Dehlin [01:25:20] In Mexico.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:21] In Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] Oh, interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:22] It was talked about maybe that he was not very active and that he may be doing stuff that is not right, but the topic was not talked at all. So for me, knowing that I was gay was like, I don't have any other option. I can't stay in the church. I can't marry a woman. I'm not attracted to them. I didn't know about conversion therapy. I didn't know that There was a thing called mixed orientation marriages.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:51] So for me, the path was traced. It was like, I'm gay, I have to be out. I didn't know anybody else who was gay and had stayed in the church, so. So he was the only person I kind of, like, could see as an example. And. And he also was studying graphic design and love photography, which piqued my interest and loved it. So it's like, that's what I'm gonna go do. I'm gonna go to BYU and study graphic design and get away from my parents so I can be openly gay.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] And I just have to check in on this. The. The whole shame, hamster wheel, porn, masturbation thing that most Mormon youth. Was that a thing for you?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:37] It was a thing. 100. 100, yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] You want to talk about that at all?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:40] Yeah, it's hard. It's. It's hard. I think maybe it was early on, before I completely had come out, when a lot of the shame was because I had already. What I mean, pornography was not super available at that point, but I did have some access to it and master had a few masturbation experiences. So, yeah, there was a lot of. Especially when I went. Because I had done it already when I became a deacon.

John Dehlin [01:27:11] Before you would have even learned about it, maybe.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:13] Yeah. I think the first times that I did it, I didn't know it was like. Like a bad thing. I didn't know what masturbation was, and I did it and I learned it after. I don't know. Remember when I learned that associated the two and two together. But anyway. But I do remember. Here's another thing I do remember when I. I knew already it was bad, wrong that I was doing that. And you became the deacon and that's when you can go into the temple to do baptisms for the death.

Carah Burrell [01:27:43] Death.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:45] And my dad, of course, was going to be there. He was the one to be baptizing that day. And I, he. So I went through the interview and I denied. I said, no, I haven't done anything. I didn't want to confess. But I did feel super guilty that I'm lying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:06] So I went to the temple and I felt super bad, like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? I'm unworthy and super worried too. Under interview. Like, is the bishop gonna know? Is he gonna read it in my eye? Is he gonna see it in my eyes that I have done something wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:21] Because there's this idea that. And my dad loves this phrase of the temple when the God will Not be mocked. That's a phrase that like would. He would tell me a lot, you know, God would not be mocked.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:41] So I went to the temple, really worried that what's going to happen because I'm not worthy to be here. But I had the most amazing spiritual experience I had in my whole life.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] That's confusing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:53] So at that point I was like, maybe I don't have to confess. Maybe I'm just clean. If I ask God to forgive me and I'll. I'm fine.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] It's good.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:06] Yeah. And so I love it.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] I love. Just as a side, I love. As I'm observing the story that you. So far it doesn't seem like you were racked, super racked with the guilt and shame, even though you knew this wasn't the way. I love it that somehow it seems like you're escaping a lot of this tragic, awful guilt and shame.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:27] Well, it's an on. And it was like, it was like a switch and on and off. Like I could turn it, turn off the shame. And then there would be a general conference talk where boy K. Packer would talk about masturbation or pornography. And then I would feel horrible. I would hate going.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] Gays, right? He would sometimes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:43] Yeah. Or gay. Yeah. I would hate going to like going to priesthood, the priesthood session, because I knew that's when they were going to talk about those topics. And I would just feel horrible or somewhat or a 70 would come and talk on our steak or word and would talk about if you are not worthy and you're not confessing, blah, blah, blah. I would feel horrible for several days after that. And then, I don't know, I would just be able to just forget about it, turn it off and just keep going with my life, I think.

Carah Burrell [01:30:19] But part of the reason that you didn't confess that you were afraid that the bishop would. I mean, then they tell your parents sometimes, or especially if it's adulthood, they ask you some questions about what kind of porn did you watch and you would have maybe had to. Were you afraid that your parents were gonna also kind of catch on?

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:35] Well, that they're gonna know. Like I, I was afraid that the bishop was gonna know and the. My parents were gonna know.

Carah Burrell [01:30:40] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] I just have to say I love that you were finding a way to successfully compartmentalize.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] Because it sounds like it wasn't an overall tormenting experience. It sounds like you had moments of fear or sadness or shame.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:54] But that you're, you're, you're resting state was one of just like acceptance and maybe even comfort.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:01] Yeah, I think it became like that.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:03] Later in high school. Yeah. Early on. 12, 13, 14. A lot of shame.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:31:09] Let's give a round of applause to the LGBTQ community who paved the way so that a kid in 2012, 2010 in Mexico was able to probably not have as much of a burden of shame that's probably already heaped upon earlier generations. So that's really interesting.

John Dehlin [01:31:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:26] There was this. My dad was on the stake presidency for a long time. At some point I went and looked at Handbook one of general instructions for bishops and stake presidents. So I grabbed the manual and I went and looked specifically on the issue of repentance. And there is this section still to this day. And at that time, you were not supposed to look at that manual unless you were a bishop or a stake president.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] It.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:55] But still did it and went and looked. And there's this section that talks about repentance. And when a member comes to repent and confess of something that he did years before, a lot of years before, he may not need a disciplinary counselor, may not need to go through, you know, the six months of not taking the sacrament, blah, blah. He may. If he stopped doing it, he may be forgiven. So I was like, then why do I have to tell the bishop if, like, I just stopped doing it, at some point I'm going to be forgiven? What's the whole thing about, like, telling the bishop? So I didn't feel like I had to. So in some ways I would justify it.

Carah Burrell [01:32:44] But yeah, that's your brain keeping you safe, telling you I know you're going to feel some guilt. Here, let me give you some happy chemicals just to make all that shame and guilt go away way.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] It's just being strategic and smart and resourceful.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] To kind of survive and thrive.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:01] I love it.

Carah Burrell [01:33:02] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:02] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] And it's also learning to be kind of sneaky and, you know, a little bit deceptive or justifying. It's all that. And who doesn't. Who doesn't do that on some level in the Mormon experience.

Carah Burrell [01:33:16] Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It all goes back to, like, that perfect Mormon family and things like that. And I'm just wondering how much I can't wait to find out when your parents and everything, kind of when you had to come out to them when their perfect Mormon family was kind of coming out. Not what they expected.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] I know enough to know that coming out isn't the way I described it,

Carah Burrell [01:33:34] is being outed the other Word. I don't know. All right, let's get to it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:37] So let me talk about the. So When I turned 8, 14, the church came up with this program which probably you guys heard of efy, and they brought it to Mexico. I think here in the U.S. it is owned by BYU. Originally, it was owned by BYU. And here, youth that want to go. Not everyone gets to go, and you have to pay a lot of money to go. But what they did is I think the church bought the program to translate it into Spanish and took it to Mexico. And I think the pilot program happened in my. My. My. My region.

Carah Burrell [01:34:23] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:24] Yeah. The first time it ever happened in Mexico, and I was the exact age that you are able to go. I think it was 14. So the church invested a lot, a lot, lot of money into Mexican efy. And that was. So I would have this great spiritual experiences in church as well. So it was kind of like a conflicting, conflicting thing for me because it went to be efy, and, you know, it's like this super. There's a lot of. They kind of went through Stephen Hassan's book of Undue Influence and Mind Control. And we're like, okay, well, let's create a program for youth that includes all these aspects as like a mini mtc.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] So give us examples. Music, obviously.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:17] Yeah, music. You're not allowed to talk to your parents. You're separated from them. So they. So in. In Mexico, they rented this whole resort to have all the stakes around to go to this resort and. And do the fy. So you are away from your parents. You have very strict

John Dehlin [01:35:41] behavioral.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:41] Behavioral things like, you can't do this. You can't do that. You. If there's the swimming pool, you can't. If anyone goes into the swimming pool, we're gonna send them back home. You. There's very strict schedule.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Smoking.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:57] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] Schedule.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:58] Super strict schedule. Like, at this time, we're waking up. At this time, we're going to bed. At this time, we're doing this next thing. And it's all day of, like, just spiritual things of hearing talks and conferences and mixed with, like, fun stuff as well. But everything has, like, a spiritual aspect to it.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] There's probably grooming standards and dress codes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:22] Oh, yes, yes. So they would have. So as soon as you. I remember I had my hair a little long because that's how I always liked it.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] I want to see Gerardo's long hair, by the way.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:33] And my dad told me, like, they're going to cut your hair if you. If. If you don't there. And I was like, they're not going to cut my hair. So as soon as you get off the bus, they have this like, ysa going and looking who has long hair and they would put you aside and then cut your hair.

Carah Burrell [01:36:50] Just like Jesus needed to have his hair short to be able to minister.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:54] Yeah. Yep. Not short shorts, even for, with, for men. Just. I don't know. And the peak event of it is this super spiritual conference where there's music and this show, videos and images about Jesus and. Yeah. And this is what he did for you. And like, and he died for you. And that's probably when I realized, okay, probably the church is. It's true that for the first, I mean, I had the temple experience before, but it was a reminder, like, the church has to be true. Like, this is incredible.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] It feels so great.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then right after that, like huge conference and they make you split into groups and then it's a testimony meeting where like everyone stands up and share their testimony while you're bawling and talking about your experiences and. Yeah. Anyway, so I just have to say

John Dehlin [01:38:02] in my Mormon experience growing up in Katy, Houston, Texas, youth conferences, temple trips, just the Mormon youth experiences and particularly the testimony meetings where everyone's crying and singing and sharing things. That, that was the pillar of my testimony because I never got witness reading the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:21] Right. Same.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Ever. And, and it's, it's really important because number one, that's, that's, you know, if Mormonism is strong, it's because they know how to generate what's called elevation, emotion in those teenage years. Combine it with family pressure, social pressure, get the kids to feel those super powerful emotions and then always get them to associate that you have these amazing feelings. We've helped generate these amazing feelings in you. And let's, let's interpret that for you to mean that that means the church is true, therefore you have a testimony. And that's, that's what seals a Mormon kid into Mormonism sometimes for the rest of their lives.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:03] Oh, yes, yes. And that was. They made it free. It's not like here, I think it's a few thousand.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] FY is free.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:11] It's free.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:12] Here's a couple thousand dollars, I think. Yeah. They made it 100. The first time it was 100 free. Later they made it so like you have to pay a couple like, like 15, $15 to go.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] Nothing.

Carah Burrell [01:39:28] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:28] And then even if you were not able to pay it, the bishop will, what, come in and pay it for you. So they really wanted all youth to go, especially the less active youth to go to this program.

Carah Burrell [01:39:42] Is that the name of it? Especially last Less active Youth. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:39:45] What was it called?

Carah Burrell [01:39:46] Yeah, what does it call in Spanish?

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:47] Menos activos. No, no, the efy. Efy. They couldn't make it.

Carah Burrell [01:39:53] I just looked up the translation because I'm a nerd.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:56] They changed the name later to fsy, you know.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] And what does that mean?

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:03] Here is like for the strength of you.

John Dehlin [01:40:06] Okay, okay.

Carah Burrell [01:40:07] They didn't have like.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:08] And at some point they did try to translate the name. I think they did translate it, but then they kept the. Oh, and then you have this like things that. Where you go E, F, Y, this, this. What do you. What would you like? This. Cheers. Yeah, yeah. Chants and yeah, so those would still be in English,

Carah Burrell [01:40:30] like repulsed it. Like the colonizations were going on. Just all these Mexican kids shouting this white man's Bible fan fiction. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:40] Yeah. Anyway, and it was a really amazing and unique experience because growing up as a youth, the leadership, at least in my word, I know in a lot of words it was the same. It seemed like they would make the less active brother to be the young men's president to try to get him active again so the activities would suck. There was not a lot of good leadership for the youth for me growing up. So EFY was just like this, like, wow, this thing that I had never seen before.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] I just have to say that, like, losing the youth represents an existential threat to Mormonism into any religion. And so it's just. So if you want to understand how Mormonism survives and thrives, look at what they're doing with the youth. And this is borne out by the way. Even the management of the wards has evolved to where within the past few years, the church got rid of a young men's president. The position of young men's president has been eliminated because now the bishop is to be the equivalent of the young men's president. And any bishop will tell you their number one goal is, is to keep the youth.

John Dehlin [01:42:04] Because if you lose the youth, you lose it all. You got to get the youth. You got to get the youth with testimonies so that they can then go on missions which seals them to the church and then immediately got to get them off their mission, married quickly and then having kids quickly. And that is going to guarantee or maximize the probability that you. You're going to keep your. Your members. And this is what happened with your parents, by the way. And it's what they were. It's what they were doing with you and it's what they do here with EFY and youth programs. At its core, Mormonism is oriented towards getting and keeping their youth.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:42] Yeah, true. Yeah. I think the church started getting worried that they were losing a lot of youth in Latin America as well. That's why they started doing this because at the same time my dad was released from the Stake presidency and he and my mom were called to this pilot calling, regional calling to. I can't remember even the name of the calling, but they were going to be pretty much the couple in charge of the YSA in the region. So Quintana Ro, Yucatan and Campeche, the three states my parents were going to be touring through towards to different state conferences and giving talks and talking just about their experience getting married, making YSA to go on their missions to.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:42] And really pushing them to get married. And. And they were going to start doing this type of EFY conferences for YSA where they would make this, invest a lot of money in this retreats for YSA so they could marry because it's hard to find a partner when you are Mormon in Mexico because there's not a lot of options. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:11] And so they did this for a few years. They organized these huge conferences for YSA of three different states and. And Mexican states. Yeah, yeah, Mexican states.

John Dehlin [01:44:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] Divided into how many states?

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:29] 30. 31, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] 31 states.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] And total population of the country?

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:35] I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm on a boss car can look that up.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] Just so we can get a sense for.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:42] Right. I know my. Just my city alone, there's 2 million.

Carah Burrell [01:44:47] 130 million.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] 130 million. So it's like a third, maybe a third of the United States. Ish.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:55] Probably. Okay. Yeah. So yeah. And there I got to go to a couple of their huge conferences that they organize. One of them was in Cancun with like they. I think they rented the hotels and then they had like these huge retreats on like nice outdoors play places and beaches and cenotes and hey, that's a Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Kids get to do youth conferences and EFY at beaches. That's not fair. That's not fair.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:28] Yeah. And they, they were really successful. They got a lot of YSA to get married from those conferences.

John Dehlin [01:45:37] Yeah, yeah. Smart. Very smart.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] Very smart.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:40] Yep. And yeah, sure. So they would not be at home for a lot for a couple years. They would not be at home a lot of the weekends because they would be traveling to other states and to speak in state conferences to the, to the young single adults. And that's the time. That's when I was in high school. And that gave me a little more freedom to. To like, go out more with my friends. And also I started experimenting going around, going out on dates with guys and I did stuff like kissed and made out with guys. Right.

Carah Burrell [01:46:24] Big deal.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:24] Yeah, big, big deal. In high school. And tried alcohol and.

John Dehlin [01:46:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:33] All this without my parents knowing.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] While you're on these EFI things.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:37] No, no. So I'm saying my, my parents would. Would be traveling a lot to. Because of their calling.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:43] So that allowed me to like, have a little more freedom on like my going out experiences with friends and in high school. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] So you started drinking.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] And dating boys. And that's. And I. We talked about whether we should even mention this. Most gay Mormon men I've interviewed, their first romantic experience at all is with a woman after their mission. And it's usually with the woman they end up marrying. And they don't experiment with any same sex romantic stuff prior to getting married to a woman at all.

Early Awareness of Being Gay

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] And so it's interesting the. I like the idea that we finally get to interview a gay man. Gay Mormon man, who in his youth was able to at least date a little bit or make out or do normal teen stuff. What was that like?

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:33] It was great. I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:47:35] But did you feel like a super hypocrite?

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:37] I did. And I felt I. There was a lot of shame, like going on Sundays.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] Are these kids from high school or how are you meeting these kids? Yeah. Gay Mexican.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:46] You can't remember? Maybe there aren't Tinder. What is the thing? No, I can't remember. No, no, there were no. There were no apps.

Carah Burrell [01:47:55] We won't check your search history. Just tell us.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:58] I don't know how it. I think parties. Okay, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:48:03] I mean, you were out.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:48:07] Is there like a, A culture of like in America? The way that you can almost tell if somebody is gay by the way they dress and the flamboyance is. Is that a way that you dressed or a way that you presented yourself that you could.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:18] Same thing. Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:48:19] Okay. So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:21] Yeah, so it was really easy to pick who's gay on the part in the party. I mean, there wouldn't. There wouldn't be many probably couple. But yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:29] So you're, you're believing in Mormonism. You know, it's true. Your dad's been in Stake leadership callings. Your mom and dad are totally in it to win it. You're viewed as, like, a model Mexican Mormon family.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:41] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] And you're making out with boys in high school.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] And you're saying you were tormented.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:48] Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Like, when EFI would happen. Can you imagine? How would that make me feel? Like, oh, crap. But at the same time, I would be like, but this is not gonna work for me. I'm gay. I. Mormonism is not gonna work.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] You knew in the long run.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:02] Yeah, it wouldn't work because I didn't know there was something like mixed orientation marriages. I didn't know there was a way to maybe make it work for a while. Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] And until it doesn't.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:18] Right. Because no one's talking about it. And I'm not going to tell my parents that I'm gay. Can you imagine?

John Dehlin [01:49:23] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:25] So, okay, and what was it?

John Dehlin [01:49:30] This is going to sound weird, and I don't even know how to ask this question. What was it like making out with other boys? Like, was it, like, exciting? If I'm sure.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:37] Oh, it was amazing. I loved it. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] You didn't feel you. You were able to enjoy that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:44] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] I'm so happy you were able to enjoy that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:47] Yes. And I would tell my friends about it and, like, they were happy for me.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:51] Yeah, it was great.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] It was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:54] It was great.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] I love Simon. Is that the movie last time? It reminds me a little bit of that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:58] Yeah. I loved high school. High school was great for me. It was. It was fun. It was really, really, really fun. But at the same time, I was the best seminary student. Like, my seminary teacher loved me. And I was the one knowing all the scripture mastery and winning the competitions. And your lips were fascinating. The one who knew the most about the doctrine. Because my dad was an avid reader, he had all doctrines of salvations, all these, like, Mormon general authorities books, and he knew a lot about doctrine. I remember this one time when I was junior high where we're talking about evolution, just so you can just picture how much my dad's ideas are, even though he's very smart, how much Mormon ideas are rooted in him.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:48] Evolution was a topic. So I went to my dad and I asked him, hey, what about this? What about evolution? Like, how do we explain this? And he goes and shows me a scripture. I think it was on the Bible where he talks about people.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Oh.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:02] Because I was like, how do we explain the skeletons that look like between monkeys and human? Like, what is that about transitional fossils? One of the explanations that I hear later was the one that everyone knows that is that God put elements from other earths into this one.

Carah Burrell [01:51:23] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:24] But the answer I remember he gave me was shown. She showed me this scripture in the Bible where he talks about humans having sex with animals. Yeah. So in my, in my. On my mind it was, oh, these skeletons are the offspring of humans having babies with. With monkeys. That's how we explain it. And that's what, that's what I understood from what my dad told me. But anyway, so I have to jump

John Dehlin [01:51:56] in and just say that when you talk about your dad kind of reading Doctrines of Salvation and Joseph Ealing Smith stuff, it brings something really powerful back to me because when I was, you know, I didn't. I had my seminary experience growing up, but I didn't know. I didn't fully understand Joseph Feeling Smith and doctrines and Mormon doctrine, Bruce Army Conkey kind of stuff until my mission. Because what happened was I went to the distribution center in Guatemala and they sold all three volumes of Doctrines of Salvation and I wanted to learn Spanish, so I read those three books in Spanish. And that served two purposes.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] It helped me learn vocabulary, but I also learned a super rigid form of Mormonism that I'd gotten a taste of in seminary. But Joseph Fielding Smith takes it to a new level. And by the way, there's nothing really radical that. Nothing really original that Bruce Armaconki taught. No, he basically just repackaged stuff from his father in law, Joseph Fielding Smith. So these are books that are like tornadoes and hurricanes are formed and earthquakes are from sin and never use the Lord's name in vain or like awful things will happen to you. And the gays are bad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:06] Evolution is bad.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Evolution is of the devil. That seven deadly heresies kind of thing that all came out of Doctrines of Salvation. And that radicalized me for a while. So I'm sure it made your dad a super intense Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:20] Well, for me, that was Mormonism growing up. There was. Is no other type of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:53:26] Right. Signs of the times.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:27] Yes. Like, why would it be another kind of Mormonism than the one that a former prophet is talking about?

John Dehlin [01:53:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:37] And Joseph Smith was talking about a lot of this stuff too.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:43] And. And the compilation of teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith done by Joseph Feeling Smith also is a lot of this, like, like super crazy stuff about worlds. And we're gonna get to. Yeah, my dad really believes in all that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:54:03] Like Garden of Eden's in Missouri.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:04] Oh, 100%. That's where Adam lived.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] And the earth is 6,000 years old.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:11] Only 6,000 yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:13] Literal flood. Yeah, like all that stuff. It is so influential. And it kind of explains why you also had a big faith crisis and now you're into apologetics and. Because, like, that's our. That's our Mormonism. Yeah. Highly influential stuff. Joseph Fielding Smith, doctrines of salvation. You know, powerful stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:33] Yeah. Or the court. The curse of Cain.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] Yeah, right. Black. Black.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:36] Even when I came back from my mission, the, The. I mean, I'll talk about this, but I'm. I'll say it because I'm. I'm gonna forget. When I came back from my mission, I had read already the, the. The gospel topic essay about blacks in the priesthood and the sentence where it says kind of like we no longer support the theories advanced in the past that anyone was less valiant or whatever

John Dehlin [01:55:02] and tied to skin color.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:03] Yeah. And one of. Yeah. And the first. One of the first conversations I had with my dad when I came back from my mission was about blacks in the priesthood. And he said, well, yes, because they were less valiant.

John Dehlin [01:55:14] It.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:15] And I told him, like, no, the church has already disavowed that.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:19] It's like he didn't really believe me.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] But you're basically saying you had read that stuff as a teenager.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] In just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:26] Well, not red. I didn't read it, but my dad talked about it. Yeah. My dad was a hundred percent the church and work. That's my dad. And if you had to put them in order, it was. Was the church number one, work number two. And the third one would be family. So he was either always at work talking about the church or at church.

John Dehlin [01:55:51] And you're saying. Well, you're literally saying not. Not to dis on your dad. But family came after.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] Work. Work in church. That's what you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:58] Yeah. 100. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] Yeah. And that's just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:01] That was a lot of. A lot of conflict between my mom and dad are. Was about that. That the fact that he was. He would just spend too much time at church and my dad would be like, but this is what I have to do. Like, this is what the Lord wants me to do. What are you. Like you're being. And he would get mad at her like, you're being less. Less faithful.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] Murming. It's, it's murmuring. It's like Sarah in the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:26] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:56:28] Murmuring.

Carah Burrell [01:56:29] Can I just ask. It makes me kind of wonder, since your dad is a convert and we're talking about a different culture in Mexico that he would have been raised in. I'm just kind of curious in your perspective, how much of that kind of like patriarchal opinions and the way that he viewed family and ran your household, how much of that do you think was his feeling like the authority of the priesthood in your house that happened because he converted versus was just his personality and. And just outlying problems with.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:59] With.

Carah Burrell [01:56:59] With the machismo kind of culture that you were talking about earlier.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:02] It's probably a mix like we'll never know.

Carah Burrell [01:57:05] But it just makes me kind of wonder.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:06] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:57:07] How much the church contributed to those types of attitudes in your household.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:10] Like, yeah, like I told John, it 100 contributes because he gives men the. The basis. Like here it is the Lord divine mandate.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] It's like Machis. Mexican machismo with divine mandate.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:23] Right, Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:57:25] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:25] Yeah, that's so that I feel like they feel justified about it. And it just. Yeah. I don't know. I can't give you a percentage of how.

Carah Burrell [01:57:35] Yeah, it's just interesting. And also it makes me kind of think that if you're your dad and so many other people don't know about the gospel topics essays and the different things that we probably shouldn't be teaching anymore, like who knows what ideas are still being purported. Is from the mouthpiece from Salt Lake City that are still supposedly accepted ideas that people are still teaching because the gospel topics essays are not around the world. Around the world. They're not widely taught and disavowed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:01] Like I said at the beginning, till today, I would say 80 to 90% of Mormons in Mexico believe that they're literal descendants of Lehi. No one has told them, like, oh, the church has changed the intro.

Carah Burrell [01:58:18] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [01:58:18] They're gonna be the last to know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:19] Yeah, well. And Book of Mormon Central. The church spends a lot of money on Book of Mormon Central and well, sorry, the church donates a lot to More Good and More Good. Donates to Book of Mormon Central and More Good. Spends a lot of money in Mexico and Book of Mormon Central spends a lot of money in Mexico and they're always talking about how Mexicans are the descendants of Lehi till today.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] Still.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:46] Still. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Yeah. Anyway, okay, so your dad was a Bruce. I'm a Conkey Josephine Smith Mormon and kind of a Mormon scholar in air quotes.

Parents Discover Gerardo Is Gay

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] Right. Doctrine doctrinal guy.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:01] Yeah, yeah, I'll say that. Okay. So here. Here's where my parents find out I. I am gay. So we were. It was a state. My dad was in the stake presidency at this point. Again, I. So you know how they release that. Release him they called him to the original calling for the ysa, and then they released them from that. And then he was called to the state presidency again. Yeah, with a different state president. And so he was. It was. It was. I think it was a word conference. And my dad was. That day, and he. There, and he was on the stand. What do you call it when they're. When they're presiding. Yeah, he was presiding.

Carah Burrell [01:59:54] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:55] So I was sitting in the second row of. Of the chapel. It was me, my sister at that point. So I had already told my sister I was gay. So my sister was like, what, like 12 years old. And I had told her she was. I was gay. And she.

John Dehlin [02:00:18] She knew.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:19] She knew and she kept the secret. She didn't tell my parents. Anyway, so I was sitting. Then my sister was next to me, and then my mom, and I was. I remember I had this Motorola flip phone. No, Motorola BlackBerry.

John Dehlin [02:00:41] BlackBerry.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:41] It was BlackBerry phone. And I was texting with a guy that I had met the night before and sexy. And then at some point, I just started paying it. My dad is a great speaker.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] Charismatic.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:01] Yeah, super charismatic. Like, I loved when my dad would give talks. Like, he's amazing. So at some point, I think I was paying attention maybe to what my dad was saying, and. And my sister asked for my phone, and I didn't think about it. I just, okay, here it is. Give it to her. And then at some point, I reacted, and I turned, and then my mom had my phone.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] Oops.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:26] And she was reading and, like, scrolling or whatever you do with blackberries. And I just started panicking, like, oh, my gosh, she's gonna read the text that I was just texting this guy. So I kind of, like, do this to my sister and tell her, hey, tell mom to give me my phone back. And my. My sister would not look at me. She was just like.

John Dehlin [02:01:54] She went.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:55] She would. She just ignored me.

John Dehlin [02:01:57] Oh, no.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:59] And I was like, what is happening?

John Dehlin [02:02:00] Did she turn you in?

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:02] I don't know. I don't know. I've never asked him how what happened or how. How it happened. So. Can you imagine? Just the feeling, the whole. The. Like, just the last 20, 30 minutes of the. Of the meeting.

John Dehlin [02:02:23] What'd you feel?

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:23] Yeah, I just. I was just dying inside. I was like, what am I gonna do? What are my parents gonna do? They're gonna kick me out of the house. I have told my friends who are now Mormon, two of my best friends, girls Catholic. I told them. I told them at some point that if my parents ever found Out. They would probably kick me out. And if I could stay at their houses, if I could live with them.

John Dehlin [02:02:49] Really thought they'd kick you out?

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:51] Yeah. So I had kind of like already talked to them, to my. Kind of like, in case he ever happens, like, this may have to be something we'll have to look into. So I was just going through my. Through my mind to all those thoughts, like, maybe I'll have to move out of the house. What am I going to do?

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:12] Something important here is to. My plan by that point was I am going to go on my mission because I know then my dad is going to let me to move to go to byu. If I'm done with my mission, my dad can't say anything. And at some point my mom has said that to me, like, if you're going. Because my dad didn't want me to go to byu, I didn't even go to the church high school because my dad was like, no, like, people send their kids there if they. Because they don't want to take care of them.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:46] So. And my dad had seen what had happened to that neighbor too at byu. So. Yeah. So. But I knew if I go on my mission, then he'll probably say it's fine. So my plan was going and then going BYU and then be gay. Okay. So, yeah, let me think. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:04:16] So I think it's. I. So you know, your mom's looking at your phone and I was just curious what was going through your mind. And you had said that you were terrified that they'd kick you out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] And that you had kind of a game plan.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:27] Right.

John Dehlin [02:04:27] To live with friends if they'd kick you out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, like, my plans are ruined. Like, I won't be able to go be to my mission, maybe, or byu. How. How on earth am I? Well, maybe if I am kicked out, I guess I can be gay now. But how am I gonna live?

John Dehlin [02:04:46] Like, what's the plan?

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:47] There's a plan, right. One of some. Some of the reasons that made me think, like, maybe I can live on my own was that by that point I was really involved with the family business. So I was making pretty decent money.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:05] So I was like, I can maybe do that somewhere else. And anyway, just if people think, like, how can he think as a teenager just move out and live by himself? Those were my thoughts going through my mind. And just was really scared. I was really scared.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:27] And I. So then the meeting ended and my mom stood up super fast, grabbed my phone and went towards my dad. Said something to him and gave him the phone. And, yeah, I was devastated. I was like, okay, this is it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:52] So I think. I think I just walked home after that. I just walked home because we just lived a few streets from. From. From the chapel. I walked home and I called my friends on the phone, and I told them, like, my parents have found out that I'm gay, so can you ask your moms if I could stay with you?

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:17] And I remember they. They responded and said, yes. They said, you can stay here if you need to. So then my parents came back from. From church, and my parents went right into their bedroom. They didn't say anything to me. They went into their bedroom, and I think part of it was, what? Like, my parents have never heard of this before.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:48] I forgot about this to tell this too. Before, while I was in junior junior high, the school psychologist had called my mom to talk to her about me being bullied. And the school psychologist had told my mom that I was kind of, like, inferred that I was gay and that that's the way I was and that there was no way to change that. And my mom just. Just got super mad and was like, he's crazy. Like, there's no way my son is gay or whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:20] She ignored it. And this was early on. Anyway, so they went into their room for several hours, and I was just outside, kind of like not knowing, okay, what am I supposed to do? And my sister at some point went in. Into their bedroom.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] Before you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:44] Before me? Yeah. And I don't know how I found out about this, but my sister. One of the things she told them was, that's the way he is. You can't change him and just let him be who he is.

John Dehlin [02:08:01] That's nice.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:01] Yeah. So then finally they call me in to the bedroom, and my mom, you know, she's been bawling and crying, and I think my dad, too, and they asked me kind of like, okay, so here are the options. What do you want to do? We can look for resources that can help you be. Help you with this problem that you have.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] And.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:42] And then. So you can maybe go on your mission and just keep being faithful. Or. Or what do you want to do? They're doing. I don't think they gave me option B, but, I mean, what do you do? I was, okay, let's look into, like, what resources can help me.

John Dehlin [02:09:05] And I just have to say that two things strike me there. One is that, well, at some level, you're comfortable and happy with who you are, but then you're realizing that who you are has now caused a huge problem and made your mom cry and made this huge, serious jolt to the family. There's just sort of like, experiencing that for the first time. It's like, whoa, who I am is causing trauma to my family and making my mom cry. And then there's sort of like the pathologist, the pathologizing of it, where it's not just that, but it's. It's a little bit worse than that because it's like, okay, this is like an illness. This is like a disease. Maybe we can cure you or fix it. Is there anything you want to say that that's how it's coming across to me, how it might have been for you at the time?

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:57] Well, I felt horrible that my mom was crying that they found out I was gay.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] And

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:07] I just felt horrible. And I just felt like this is the only thing. Like, this is my only option, like, going. Going with it, like, and doing whatever they want me to do. And maybe at some point in the future, I. I'll be able to figure something out. But. Yeah, this was when I was 16. My birthday is in January, so it was like, mid 16, probably.

John Dehlin [02:10:39] And

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:41] one of the. One of the things they told me, my dad, that my dad said, we're not gonna tell the bishop. Well, first he asked me, you haven't done anything with a guy like that would. Or anything that would need you to confess to the bishop. Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] Oops. And you probably had.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:02] Yes. Yeah. Well, what does that mean nowadays? Right. Because are you supposed to confess if you kiss the guy nowadays? Like, I don't know anyway. But. Well, in my mind, I'm like, of course I have, but. But I also. But the way he was saying it was like. Right. That's how I felt.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] It felt to me, leading the witness.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] So that you would.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] Because your dad. I mean, what stake President. What Mormon stake president wants it to get out that his son's gay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:35] Right, Right, right. And rumors just spread fat like wildfires, especially in Mexico.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:42] No confidentiality at all. Everyone knows everyone's problems. If they. If you want to talk to the bishop, everyone probably already knows. And bishops don't know. They don't know anything about this topic. Like, they're not trained and they like that. And the church doesn't really talk about it. The church doesn't have a lot of resources out there. What are they gonna offer That. I think that was part of my dad's mind too. I think we can do better here and. And ourselves. And Your mom knows English, he can con. She can try to find something, find resources. So I told them, no, I don't have anything to confess. And till, till this day they're breathing

John Dehlin [02:12:30] a huge sigh of relief. It's like, oh, wow, good.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:33] Till this day my parents don't know that I did all that stuff. So if they listen to this, they'll this be the first time they.

John Dehlin [02:12:41] And again, all that stuff means healthy normative dating.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:47] Which you would want for anyone. Right, Right. But it's in a Mormon context. It's shameful and scandalous.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:53] Yep. Yep. So, yeah. So there were, those were the thing that. What happened. And then the next days my mom, my mom and my dad just started researching online. She knows English and they found Evergreen.

Carah Burrell [02:13:15] Ouch.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Should we tell people what that is?

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:19] Yeah. So Evergreen is an organization that started in the late night 1900s. Like, like 19, 1990, maybe 90s. Yeah, I think 80s actually.

John Dehlin [02:13:34] 80s and 90s, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:37] It was a group of LDS gay member members of the church who were wanting to make mixed orientation marriages work and, or being gay work in the church. And based on these, they founded this organization based on the idea that people can change, that homosexuality can be cured and repaired and you can become if not completely heterosexual. You can definitely manage your attractions towards, towards the same gender and, and eventually marry a partner and just like different sex partner and, and go to the temple and just live a Mormon life.

John Dehlin [02:14:25] And just because I studied this as part of my PhD, I'll just add a tiny bit.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:29] I love that.

John Dehlin [02:14:30] Yeah. That, that it has its roots in the, in the mental health profession, ironically. Because if you go back to Skinner and, and, and Pavlov, there's kind of this idea that, you know, you study behaviorism and you start trying to study human behavior. And there's a strain of the mental health profession that's like, hey, people become gay for maladaptive reasons.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] And if you, if you just take behavioral principles of association and conditioning, you can un. Gay someone just like, you know, we, we made them gay by improper parenting or we made them gay by a, a detached father and an overbearing mother or improper or abuse or you know, sexual abuse or some type of, of bad upbringing. That's how we made them gay.

John Dehlin [02:15:22] And so we can use similar psychological principles to unmake them gay to make them straight. And so you have rising in the 80s and 90s NARTH, which was the national association of Reparative Therapies. And then you have within Judaism, Noah. I believe it's called Or Jonah. Jonah. Jews, you know, and so the evangelical movement and the Catholic movement and the Jewish movement, they all had their flavors of conversion therapy groups where they would have support groups for gay men or women, they would have retreats for gay men and women. And this was a larger movement within the conservative, you know, religious institutions in the United States.

Conversion Therapy and the Mormon Context

John Dehlin [02:16:09] And Evergreen was just the Mormon flavor of, you know, this broader movement. And it. It's weird because it was. It was led by mental health professionals. But. But at the same time, the American Psychological association, the American Psychiatric association, all the whole mental health field was moving away from being gay as being pathologized. It was taken out of the dsm, the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual, as a disease or as a mental illness as early as, like the early 70s.

John Dehlin [02:16:43] So as the whole mental health profession is moving away and saying this is normative stuff, being LGBT is just part of kind of people's experiences in the world, and it's not to be pathologized. There's a strain within the mental health profession. They're still trying to publish journal articles about conversion therapy and people ungain themselves and that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [02:17:06] And so it's this weird schizophrenic dynamic that was occurring. And so this guy named Dean Bird, you want to look that up. I think it's Byrd. But he was like the Mormon. You know, he was a medical doctor. He was one of the main guys who started Evergreen, which is the precursor to North Star. And that's when you start seeing in the 80s. Well, you see in the 70s, the BYU aversion shock therapy, where they're literally trying to apply these behaviors, principles of shocking the genitalia of gay men as they show them gay porn to using Skinner and. And Pavlov principles to condition people away from being gay and then towards being straight.

John Dehlin [02:17:50] And then, of course, that was a disaster. It literally drove Mormon gay men at BYU crazy. And some even ended their lives and died by suicide. So anyway, that was the early version of this. And then towards the 80s and 90s, you start to see support groups and then these retreat like Journey into Manhood and others. And Evergreen, which, by the way, was sponsored by the church. So there would always be either a general authority, an emeritus general authority on the board of Evergreen regularly. They had these annual conferences where either a current or former general authority would speak. And I discovered in my sleuthing work in the, you know, in the early to mid 2000s that the church was funding Evergreen.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] So part of my passion around the more good foundation and Fair Mormon and Book of Mormon Central and the Interpreter foundation was realizing that what the Mormon Church would do is they would shadow fund these nonprofits to do kind of the dirty work that they didn't want any legal or financial or PR liability for being involved in. So what they would do is they would make these informal callings to people where they were to lead these organizations, these separate nonprofits, and the church would funnel money to them and funnel LDS Family Services and all these therapists to tell their members to go to these things.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] But then the church would have plausible deniability and kind of an arm lengths, arm's length distance from them so that they wouldn't get into trouble.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:21] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] And so that was evergreen in the 80s and 90s. And then it sounds like even into the 2000s. And yes, even in the 2000s, conversion therapy, reparative therapy, Mormon flavor being Evergreen. Evergreen was alive and well even up to the point where I've started my PhD and by 2009.

Carah Burrell [02:19:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:40] And so you. It's just interesting to hear that that hits your experience. And what year about is this?

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:47] 2012. So it was the last years of Evergreen. Yeah, obviously we didn't know. Like my mom didn't know. Oh, Evergreen, all the struggling organization.

John Dehlin [02:19:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:59] I've heard from a really, really, really good source that the reason, the main reason why Evergreen disappeared was. I mean, there's a lot of reasons. Like you're saying the church was realizing that conversion therapy is not working, that

John Dehlin [02:20:13] it's a legal liability.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:14] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:15] And a PR liability because people like Michael Ferguson and others start suing Jonah, the Jewish version of Evergreen and others. And of course the, the head of the evangelical version of Evergreen, and I'm forgetting its name now, Exodus admits that he comes out as gay and admits that like 99% of the gay men who have been through Exodus International were never changed.

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:40] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:40] So I, you know, but, and I, you know, and I, I'm not trying to take credit for this, but me and Bill Bradshaw and others in the, you know, when Prop 8 made us mad and then we're learning about Evergreen and that makes us mad. By 2009, 2010, we're starting to release the results of our, of our research around LGBTQ Mormons. This is my dissertation. And we start making noise about how Jonah and Exodus and Evergreen are bad news. So that all by 2010, 2011, 2012, this is all leading up to the TED talk.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] The church is starting to see the writing on the wall that Evergreen is not, not going to be sustainable and it could be a PR risk and a legal risk. And so I, I only give all that history because we don't talk about it enough. It's very important history that's impacted tens of thousands of Mormons and their families and their straight spouses and the children that came along afterwards. Kyle Ashworth talked about this in my recent interview with him. He's amazing. But this is really important history that affected tens of thousands of lives. And it's the backdrop to what the story you're about to tell.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:45] Well, yeah, I hope that on the be on the Greg Prince on his book the Gay Gay rights on the Mormon Church, he has a whole section of Evergreen. He says that on the best days of Evergreen, they were in at some point they were getting at least 150 men, most of them married to women, contacted them for help every month.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:12] So yeah, it was. They worked also close together at some point with Family Services, with LDS Family Services. And they were constantly being referred by bishops and stake presidents. And I mean Evergreen definitely had it its impact. And by the point we contact, we found out about Evergreen, they were really struggling. We didn't know about this, but, but I was saying that I, I've heard that the main reason it disappeared was because the church stopped funding them. And I went last night and looked at their, the tax returns and they go from having a several hundred thousand dollars to having like $6,000 one year on, on, on donations the last year.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:04] They were operating in the rats the last three or four years. So they went from having hundreds of thousands of dollars to like all of the sudden there's no donations. I've heard from a really good source that it was the church who was originally donating and they just stopped their donation. In Greg Prince book, he talks about how also the church stopped letting them use the Joseph Smith Memorial because they

John Dehlin [02:23:28] used to have their conferences there on church property.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:23:31] Yeah. And I'm just torn because on the one hand it's super smart of the church to avoid legal and PR liability by creating these nonprofits.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:38] But why didn't the church come out and say, hey, we don't agree with Evergreen anymore?

John Dehlin [02:23:42] No, no, I mean, that's what I'm about to say. That like there's this long history of the Church creating these shell nonprofits to keep them at an arm's length, tell donors to give money to them, call people to work with them, tell their bishops and, you know, people to refer to them for various reasons, whether it's apologetics or LGBT stuff. But, but then to have it at arm's length and then if they need to cut them off or shut them down or distance themselves, you know, there's never any accountability, there's never any explanation. It's just start North Star, start something else as a replacement. And these people all just kind of get forgotten. And on, on the one hand, it's brilliant legally and from a PR perspective and even from a financial perspective. And there's something that's just always bothered me. It's kind of shady and dishonest.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:33] It's super shady. It's super shady. Evergreen is telling us the church is fine with us, the church loves us. And, and what Evergreen tells my mom is these studies that are coming out against conversion therapy, there are being done by gay men who are into psychology and they want to just prove that they are correct by living their gay lifestyle. So you can't trust those studies. You need to trust us because we are trying to make it work with what the church. Obviously the church is true. This is the path the church wants us to follow, to get married, get eternal families. There has to be a way to make it work. So of course the APA and all these psychology associations, they are filled with gay people, atheists and. Atheists. Yeah. And they're changing the rules and changing the manuals to make it look like homosexuality is a normal thing when it's not.

John Dehlin [02:25:43] It's a whole persecution complex that the world hates God's law, the world hates Mormons, the world hates righteousness, and so, and so the mental health profession's out to get Mormons and you know, evil is behind the normalization of, of a gay quote. I'll say gay lifestyle in quotes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] And I just want to say, as someone who spent six plus years of my life immersed in the literature, the least credible studies were the ones done by, by North Star, Evergreen, by Evergreen, by Exodus, Jonah, by Exodus. Because there were mental health professionals doing studies on the effectiveness of conversion therapy and of reparative therapy. But those were the lead they had. They would only recruit from believing religious members.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] They, they would. Those samples were extremely biased. They wouldn't seek to get a broader sample size that would draw from diverse populations and they would never show the follow up of how effective These things were six months later, 12 months later, two years later, five years later. Because you know, when you're like you, we need to get to your story. But when you're a young, impressionable gay religious person and all your family and your clergy and your community are all pressuring you to go through conversion therapy. One, you're going to do it and two, you're going to tell them all that it was amazing and that it cured you.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] You. And so if you just recruit from that sample of the ones who are in it and you just ask them immediately after they go through some conversion therapy, how was it? It was great. I'm cured, I'm fixed.

Carah Burrell [02:27:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] And then you don't do any follow ups. That's a dishonest and an ineffective sample. Right. If you don't work really hard to say, what about the people that went through conversion and reparative therapy five years ago and 10 years ago? Are they still straight? Did it really cure them? Did the treatment last or did they just become gay and then leave the church? Well, none of their studies showed any of that kind of longitudinal impact. And so it was broadly known that those studies that supported conversion and reparative therapy were amongst the least credible in the social science realm. Not because there was this bias, but because we were, we knew about by then the depression, the suicide that was all starting to emerge.

John Dehlin [02:28:11] And we knew that there were very high stakes and the divorce rates for, you know, we knew that there were very high stakes involved. So it wasn't that we were trying to push some secular agenda.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:20] Right.

John Dehlin [02:28:21] It was that we were trying to get to the truth of the evidence. And that's why Bill Bradshaw reached out to me and we Even started my PhD study was because we, we really wanted to get to the bottom of the truth. And that's why when we did our study, we recruited from Evergreen, we recruited from North Star, we recruited from everywhere. Because good science recruits from everywhere, not just the subpopulations that are gonna.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] That are gonna advocate for your position. So I apologize that we've gone on this rabbit trail a little bit, but I think it's necessary, I think it's important for giving some context for what you were. Because I'm bewildered that you had an experience with Evergreen as late as what year?

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:02] 2012.

John Dehlin [02:29:03] Yeah. Because by then they were really on their way out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:06] So it's. But, but then there's the international effect of like, well, things may change in Utah, in the United States, but oftentimes the impact of these things persist even till now.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:17] Oh, a couple years ago my mom told me, like, oh no, Evergreen didn't disappear. They just merged with North Star. They still hold to their beliefs. And I, it's my mom. I don't know if she still believes it, but it's pretty recently she told me she still thinks that what they're saying is true.

John Dehlin [02:29:35] Yeah. So let's, let's jump to your experience. So. I'm sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:39] No, I think, I think it's great. And something else, Something else I wanted to say is that Evergreen would use this. Manuals written by Spencer W. Kimball about how homosexuality had and could be changed,

John Dehlin [02:29:56] how it develops, and that could be changed.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:58] Right, right, right. And it has the story and have the church. The church stamp, like. Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:03] So, of course, like, we, we have to trust Evergreen. Like, there. Here are the. This written by a prophet who's talking about homosexuality.

John Dehlin [02:30:12] And what was Kimball's view on how it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:15] Kimball taught that mainly. Mainly. Mainly his approach was homosexuality can be cured through prayer, through going on a mission, and to finally marrying a woman. And that's the way to go.

John Dehlin [02:30:29] But also that it's developed by, by masturbation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:32] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [02:30:33] By. By abuse by a. By a distant father and an overbearing mother.

Carah Burrell [02:30:38] Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] No science behind that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:40] Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:41] Yeah. But is that, Was that part of it?

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:42] Yeah, that's part of it. That's what. Yeah. And a lot of these manuals and pamphlets had the church stamp of approval, so. Yeah. Just can't get away from that.

John Dehlin [02:30:55] Yeah. And

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:59] anyway, so they. My mom buys a lot of books, a lot of literature from Evergreen. One of them, I think, was Voices of Hope. Yeah, they sent her Desert book, published it. Right.

John Dehlin [02:31:12] That's her book.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:13] Published Desert. But I, I didn't read that one, I don't think. But they sent her literature for her and literature for me and the literature that I. It was for me. I remember there was this workbook that I had just to go through, and it was just kind of explained going through a gay man's life and like how you were bullied in, in elementary school and. Yeah. And how your dad was distant. You have bad communication with your dad, your parents. So it's not really true. Yeah. And the fact that you're attracted to men, it's. It's mostly related to the fact that you look up to them and then that later develop into an attraction that we can, if we can improve your relationships with men, then we can reverse that unnatural attraction that appeared because of your distant relationships with men, unhealthy relationship with men, and very close relationship with.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:11] With, with women. So. Yeah, that's the workbook. And then my mom says, tells Evergreen I, I, well, they tell her about conversion therapy, tell her what it is. And she's. She says, well, I want. I, I need the best conversion therapist that there is available.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] And

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:39] I think they tell her, well, you'll have to wait for a couple months because he's booked out. But there's this therapist who is the godfather of conversion, Mormon conversion therapy. His name is David Matheson, and he can do wonders.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:01] So my mom's like, okay, let's do it. And we're paying for it for. For this therapy that I think it started every. Every week first, and then it went all. Every other week. We did it through Skype. And I knew English because I went to bilingual school so I could communicate with him.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:18] It was a really hard time because I would come from school every day and my mom would be crying. The first weeks after they found out I was gay, she was just. We'd just eat lunch and just crying. I could tell she's been crying.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:35] And so after reading some of the literature, I got convinced, like, okay, this thing actually can get cured. Maybe. I mean, I love the church. I like the church. Maybe I can make it work. I can definitely. Well, I can try this. And they're saying it works. It must work.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:57] I mean, we're paying a lot of money for it. So I went back to my friends who are not members and tell them, hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this therapy stuff. They kind of laughed and said, like, there's no way.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:12] You can't change. You can't just change to. From gay to straight. I was like, no, I think it can really work. I'm gonna really try this, so I need you to support me. And my friends were like, okay, fine. So they'll be supportive. And so I started doing the therapy. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] You were gonna ask what did the therapy until.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:39] So the therapy was. It was. It's mostly talk therapy. Just going through my past life, getting over trauma about me and my dad, distant relationship and my. Not a lot of it. A lot of goals of like, okay, maybe you should stop hanging out with women that much. Your friends try to make them more straight men. That was really hard for me because most of my friends were girls. And my parents would really police that I was not just hanging out with girls, that I was really trying to hang out with guys. That's pretty. That's probably the one. Some of the most traumatic parts of it was the just this constant being constantly thinking that, okay, I have to be more with guys. I have. And. And this thing that was uncomfortable for me to have to do it.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] It.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:48] And. And then a lot of the therapy with. When we would talk was. I mean, I showed you the, the, the spreadsheet. We would do that, we would do this constantly. If you want to explain more of it, I honestly, I can't thinking about a guy that I was attracted to and do this kind of exercises to try to, I don't know how to explain it, but this is how I understand. Try to see the guy more like as a brother rather than someone that I should be attracted to. I guess. I don't know, I don't know if you've seen the, the she. How, how would you explain what, what was he trying to do?

John Dehlin [02:36:34] Yeah, so you know, this is just my understanding but there's, there's all sorts of things super wrong and unethical about what, what you were put through and not, not to hate on anyone, but I did get a PhD in this and so I have strong feelings about it. Number one is there's no, no psychological basis for an ideology of same sex sexuality or origin of same sex sexuality being rooted in a distant father or an overbearing mother. Because what Mormon kid doesn't have a father that's so busy working and serving in the church that he's felt is distant? And what, what stay at home mom isn't super involved in her kids lives.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] And if that were true, all Mormon boys would be gay. And so that not only does that not explain it and that's illogical, there's no scientific basis for it. So to have a psychological or a medical intervention that's got literally no scientific backing on its face is unethical. Right? So that's, that's the first problem. The second is it's ignoring, Even in the 1910s, it's ignoring the emerging science which started in the 1990s or later, that there's a, some there's genetic associations with being gay, there's hormonal influences in the womb and it's Clearly. By the mid 2000s, Bill Bradshaw was already presenting as a BYU biology professor at BYU.

John Dehlin [02:38:02] He's talking about the biological origins of same sex sexuality. And so you know, we know that it's got a biological origin that they're, you know, they've done twin studies, they've done left handedness studies, they've done brain scans and genetic studies and they're realizing that a birth order studies and all of these emerging scientific studies are showing this is a biological thing. Right. And conversion therapy. But by the mid 2000 2010s, we know that conversion therapy doesn't work. There's enough evidence coming out that this stuff is just like A a, it's like a revolving door where they come in, they go through the therapy, they say they're great and then they leave and go out and they're not changed.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] So there's that, there's the, there, there's the financial cost and the financial burden to you and your family. There's the pathologizing, you know, the, the DSM takes away the, the pathological stigma of same sex sexuality by like 1973. So here we are like 30, 40 years later and it's something that's actually known generally and understood all the mental health associations, the Psychiatric association, you know, the American Psychiatric association, the American Psychological association, the Licensed Clinical Social Work association, the American Counselors association, the American Medical association by the 2010s they've all condemned and they've all acknowledged that it's a normative, healthy variation of human, the human experience, that being same sex sexuality and that by, by they've all got built into their code of ethics a standard that conversion and reparative therapy is ineffective and, or damaging.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] Now there isn't a lot, there isn't as much science behind that as we all would have liked and that's partly why Bill Bradshaw and I did our study. But the fact that mental health professionals, that Dave Matheson is a licensed medical professional, is developing a treatment that on its face is unethical by the mental health standards of the time. That's a problem, right? Yeah, that's a problem.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] But then the other problem is one we've already acknowledged and this is kind of letting out a secret, but it's super important to acknowledge this. Dave Matheson was gay. He was in a mixed orientation marriage. And since then, like pretty much every other advocate of conversion therapy during the 90s and 2000s and 2000s, he ends up coming out as gay, leaving his wife and acknowledging that very little of the therapies ever really helped anyone. Just like with Exodus International, just like with Jonah, just like with, you know, Joshua and Lally Weed, you know, the church wants, you know, there's this huge draw within conservative religions to advance damaging therapies and techniques.

John Dehlin [02:41:01] And then just like a person of color within Mormonism is going to be celebrated for being a black Mormon who's faithful. Oh, look how great that is. Yes, the church has a racist past, but look, there's Kwaku. You know, he loves the church and he's black. That same sort of dynamic happens with gay people in the church where you know, one viable career option is to be that gay therapist who advocates for staying in the church and being faithful, and then starts having Journey into Manhood retreats and reparative therapy techniques and saying, hey, I'm gay, but I make it work. And you end up making a living.

John Dehlin [02:41:39] If you look at Ty Mansfield, he sells book contracts, the Deseret book. He recruits people through Evergreen and then North Star into Journey into Manhood, which he was leading. He gets invited, he gets indirect funding through these nonprofits and North Star. The church starts funneling money into North Star or having donors funnel money into North Star. It becomes a livelihood for Ty, his reputation and his wife Danielle. His reputation starts to grow. He starts to get invited to conferences. He gets a gig at byu, where he teaches there. And all of a sudden, his reputation, his livelihood, his ego, whatever, is starting to become bolstered and enhanced by the church's investment in him as a spokesperson for, like, hey, you can be gay and marry a woman and be healthy and happy and believe in Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:42:31] And so there's these conflicts of interest that emerge that support Dean Byrd before Ty Mansfield, and then a David Matheson before Ty Mansfield, and then a time Mansfield now. And maybe Ty will be the one unicorn that makes it all work. But we saw with Josh and Lolly Weed that ended up Josh ended up saying, I'm gay and leaves Lolly, and now he's living, quote, the gay lifestyle. Who knows? Maybe Ty will or won't be that cautionary tale again. But it doesn't matter whether Ty ends up, you know, we discovering that he has stuff on the side or he's doing other things. The church will always be replacing the Josh's and the Dave Mathis's and the Dean Birds and the Ty Mansfields of the past.

John Dehlin [02:43:17] They will always just find a new crop of new advocates for being gay or lesbian and staying faithful to the Mormon Church without ever apologizing to all the people that got hurt for all the expenses that were made and for all the marriages that were destroyed and all the people who were psychologically damaged by being sold hope. And that's what Voices of Hope is, and that's what Evergreen was, and that's what Northstar is. You're selling hope to people when what you're offering them and what you're charging them for and what they're paying for are our treatments that are unethical, that go against science, that are expensive, and that people make major life decisions on marriage, kids, livelihood.

John Dehlin [02:44:03] They make all missions. They make all these decisions based on the promise of hope that is completely bankrupt psychologically. And you know, from a mental health perspective. And in, and sadly, your parents. Because the church was influencing your parents, then your parents were encouraging you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] And so you're thinking, I'm sick, I'm broken, I'm defective. I'm gonna go tell my friends. You guys need to help me, because now I'm going through this therapy and I need your support because I'm sick, I'm broken, I'm defective. And, and this is my only hope to not have my life ruined. So that's my, that's my rant. Yeah. Anything you want to disagree with? No.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:48] Yeah. I think you nailed it. Yeah, you nailed it. Something that they really want the, the to do, Evergreen wanted to do before you start the therapy, is really indoctrinate you into the idea that you are broken, that you are. That you're not supposed to be gay, that it's not natural, it's not normal, and therefore you need to want to change. They really want you to say that you want to change. David Matheson won't start the therapy unless you are the one saying, I am with. I have an undesired same sex attract attraction.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:38] And that's the whole thing. So then they can come back today and say, well, all these people, they wanted to change. They came to us and they wanted the therapy, or we shouldn't make the therapy illegal. Because people that come to us, they want to do it, so why, why should we make it legal? Freedom of speech allows us to keep doing it. But they, they convinced me, they convinced me that I needed to want to do it. I remember at the beginning, I was like, how in the world am I going to be able to not to want to change something that I like?

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:19] How am I, why should I dislike something that I like? Like, how is that even possible? It's like saying, I don't know. Yeah, I like bacon.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Yeah, I hate bacon.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:32] Yeah, I, I, or I, I like chocolate, but I need to want to hate chocolate.

John Dehlin [02:46:39] How do you learn to hate chocolate?

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:40] Right. Yeah. So, I mean, and for me was the literature that it was just reading. The preparation for the therapy was reading that that's not what I'm supposed to be, and that gay people are sinister. People that get AIDS and that have horrible lifestyles and that are not blessed by God and that they, they, they. There's no, there's no happiness into that lifestyle.

Carah Burrell [02:47:16] It's terrible. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:47:17] Yeah. And part of what's so insidiously unethical, there are two things. One is, this is all done in the name of God. So it's like, well, God and Spencer be killing Boyd K. Packer. They all said it. So it's not just therapists and Dave Matheson and Evergreen and your parents, it's God himself through the prophets are condemning who you are at your core. And that takes it to a whole extra level of unethical. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:47:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:47] But the second thing is that there's. There's a serious lack of informed consent because the church knows there's this revolving door of all these men that say they've been cured and then five, ten years later, they're, you know, they're not able to sustain the effects of either. A mixed orientation.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:03] I know people today who are on the North Star website. I was looking at their website yesterday, who are like, have their stories and the Voices of Hope section that I know for sure they are fooling around with guys.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] Yeah. Or. Or have left the church or have, you know, ended up getting in committed relationships.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:23] But they're still there on the website. On the North Star website. You got. If a new gay kid goes, he'll hear the story about this guy who's making it work when in reality he's like out of the church or just sleeping around.

John Dehlin [02:48:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we talk about the second thing that's super insidious regarding informed consent is the Mormon Church will never ever tell a Gerardo who's 16 in Mexico. Okay. We're presenting to you Evergreen and we're telling your therapists and your parents to put you in front of Evergreen. But we're not going to tell you that tens of thousands of gay Mormons before you have tried these therapies and it ended up not only not working, but in some cases was fatal. Right. And we propped up all these role models like Dean Byrd, like Dave Matheson, like Josh Weed, and it failed for all of them.

John Dehlin [02:49:18] And all these tens of thousands of people before failed marriages, suicides, whatever. But we're not going to ever tell our new crop of young gay Mormons and lesbians that. That the risks and the harm and the damage is really severe. And when we. I just did a tick tock on informed consent. Not only do you have to tell people, you know, they not only have to have no coercion in what they're agreeing to, which you didn't, you had coercion. Your parents and your family and your church and God.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:49:48] You. You also have to have all the information. You have to understand the risks and benefits to have full informed consent. You need to be explained the Risks and benefits. The church knows the risks and benefits by 2010, 2015, by 2021. But they never, ever offer the risks and benefits. They just keep recycling a new generation of advocates who, who all end up washing out of the program or have miserable lives by staying in it. But either way, there's never any informed consent in terms of the risks and benefits.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] Did you get any informed about the risks and benefits of what you were going.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:27] Dude, they were telling us that this is the most amazing thing that, that all the APAs are wrong because there it's. The APA is full with gay people who are changing the DSM and, and voting to, to say homosexuality is good. But in reality, we are the ones that are right.

John Dehlin [02:50:46] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:47] What? There's no informed consent at all?

John Dehlin [02:50:49] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:52] And these people who, I mean people may be able to say, well, Evergreen doesn't exist anymore. These people who were in Evergreen, they're now in North Star and they still to this day promote those ideas. I know that because at least one of them keeps contact with my mom and tells her about it. Tells her that, that, that. That your study or like other. Other people study are, are bogus and that you're just trying to prove that that homosexuality is, Is good. I know. At any cost.

John Dehlin [02:51:26] Yeah. And. And there's this whole culture, I, I haven't even mentioned this. Of this retreat called Journey into Manhood.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:32] Yeah. And my, my David Matheson, my therapist, he was the co author with another person of that, of the year and time.

John Dehlin [02:51:41] Mansfield has been a part of that. But basically it's just the idea of all these men going away for a weekend to Southern Utah or in the forest, and by being with other men, by doing a lot of these exercises and psychological techniques with other men. And then this is where it gets really, really unethical. Holding other men, embracing other men for long periods of time, even being naked with other men or getting naked in

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:07] front of other men too.

John Dehlin [02:52:09] Yeah. That somehow that's, you know, and if you just embrace a man, you know, as a gay man, possibly naked, and hold them for a long time, but not feed the sexual arousal, that somehow that's going to cure you of your gayness.

John Dehlin [02:52:26] And so generations of men have gone to these Journey into Manhood. You do macho things, chop wood, throw the floor football, be macho, hold men in a naked embrace for long periods of time, somehow that's all going to be a mishmash that cures you of your gayness. And what often happens is you just hook up on the side or, you know, it doesn't last or you're just, you're getting your part of your sexual or emotional needs met from these retreats to, to make it possible for you to try and stay in a mixed orientation marriage. And there's a great interview we just did, Kyle Ashworth, where he talks about the North Star Gay naked cuddling in hotels with married Mormon men whose wives aren't even told that they're doing these sorts of things.

John Dehlin [02:53:15] It's this twisted, warped, unethical, I hate to say it, gay Mormon underground that still is thriving in 2021. There's a North Star conference like this weekend, I think in Salt Lake City. The time Mansfield is leading. We've known about these things for over a decade and nobody cares. Nobody's talking about it. And time Mansfield is still funded by the church. I think he teaches at BYU and Northstar is still supported by the church and it's the go to organization for fair Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:45] The church is sending him to teach seminary teachers. Remember Mark?

John Dehlin [02:53:49] That's right. Yeah. Mark Oslin said that Ty Mansfield was sent to train Mormon seminary teachers about how to deal with gay youth. And it's just a corrupt, rotten, unethical, seedy, anti science Mormon anti science.

Carah Burrell [02:54:06] That's what's just hitting me right now is that when you center yourself in an unscientific worldview that yeah, maybe evolution is not real or the earth was formed from different planets and you just have such a religion based around like folk magic that has evolved into this very conservative, ultra orthodox version of, of this religion. And it just seems like, yes, that's the outgrowth of being so anti science. They're just throwing crap at the wall, seeing if gay cuddling parties. Maybe that'll work. Like nothing about ever just accepting people and going with the science that like you were saying earlier about, like this is. We don't exactly know the reasons that people have these sexualities.

Carah Burrell [02:54:45] It's not Satan for sure. Like they won't accept that because that would go against everything that all the other prophets have taught that's not even on the table. Right. Like they can't just accept it. But I hope that there's some changes happening because this is really, I'm a straight woman, but I'm like in pain listening to what these people have gone through.

John Dehlin [02:55:02] Is this a little bit newer for you? Did you know, I mean, I used

Carah Burrell [02:55:05] to be ultra conservative. Didn't understand just a few years ago, just two years ago, I still believe that being gay was a choice. Two years ago. So it's really painful that. How Closet. Not closeted. Sorry. What a bubble my mind was in just assuming that a proclamation to the family. That's what it is. That's what God said it is, and you got to get in line with it. This is God's way. There's no other way.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] Yeah. And, you know, there are a lot of post Mormons that, like, don't care about LGBT issues or, like, even still carry their anti LGBT stuff into their post Mormonism. And I just want to say, even if you don't feel like you're an ally to LGBTQ issues or you don't feel passionate about LGBTQ issues, these issues strike at prophetic fallibility.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:55:50] Number one, because you. You, You. You just. You've got all these. This. Decades of declarations about how evil and satanic and perverted and wrong being LGBTQ is. Then you've got modern general authorities backtracking on all that because they've realized how much damage they've done. That is a huge, important illustration of the lack of Mormon prophetic infallibility.

John Dehlin [02:56:14] But then, even if you don't care about lgbt, the LGBTQ causes, you have to recognize the huge generations of psychological and physical and emotional damage done to LGBTQ Mormons, to the women and men that they married and to all the kids that became collateral damage in these families.

John Dehlin [02:56:36] Even if you don't care about LGBTQ people care about all the damage that's been done and the glaring, obvious reality that shows that these. You know, there are a lot of people that come on TikTok or. Or YouTube, and they're like, oh, come on, man. Religions are all imperfect, but let people have their beliefs. And why are you. Why are you hating on religious people? You know, just let people do their own thing. Mormons are nice people.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:01] And there is a subsegment of these populations that are being destroyed, that are being killed, that are being damaged. And, you know, it. The worst of it is all the LGBTQ suicides. But stopping short of that, there's all the depression, all the anxiety, all the destroyed families. It's just. It's like a modern holocaust. I hate to use that word. It's a psychological and a moral holocaust that. That we're just starting to emerge from. I'm sorry, Gerardo, we've hijacked your story.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:31] No, no, I think you believe in 100%. I believe. I believe in what you're saying. Yeah. And I agree with that 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It's sad today to have family Especially from my husband's side, just saying, well, church leaders just make mistakes. Like, how. How can you just dismiss it and be like, well, church leaders just make mistakes. Don't criticize the church. Just. I mean, I don't criticize you for being gay, so just don't talk about my church. I was damaged by this. And it's not as simple as church leaders make mistakes. Church leaders are telling us today that we need to listen to them and that truth is truth and that they won't teach us anything. That is not truth. Yeah. It's just very sad.

Carah Burrell [02:58:32] There's huge externalities to them getting it wrong. There's a suicide epidemic. There's broken families.

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:39] So as you're going through this, Gerardo, what's it like for you going through Dave Matheson's conversion therapy?

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:45] At the beginning, I was like, okay, this is going to work. And it was really hard to have my mom ask me constantly, like, after the meeting, how did it go? How's it going? How are you feeling? What happened? And how do you measure that stuff? How do I tell her, well, I guess I'm 10% less gay today. So I would just be very quiet and be like, I don't know. It went good. It went good.

John Dehlin [02:59:09] And she's spending all this money.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:11] Yeah. And she's very frustrated that I'm not telling her. So she. So they're kind of, like, policing me, my parents, and kind of, like, thinking, okay, is he actually doing and putting an effort into this? A lot of conversations of like, oh, maybe you're not putting enough effort. Maybe you should. Doing more. You should be doing more. And pretty fast, pretty quickly, I realized that it was not working, that it was bogus. But what really affected me was having to have to. Have to hide even more from my parents that. That. I mean, this. This part, they were spending all this money, and I'm like, I knew it's not working, but then what else could I do?

John Dehlin [03:00:01] And there's eternal consequences for them. It's not just like.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:04] Right.

John Dehlin [03:00:04] You know.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:05] There's social consequences. There's embarrassment to your parents. And then you won't be with them in the afterlife. So now their eternal family is being jeopardized. And that's what Mormons live for.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:16] That's a lot of pressure for you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:17] Yeah. Yeah. And later, I. I decided, okay, well, I'll go back to plan A, just pretend this is working, go on my mission, go BYU and then be gay, because this is definitely not working.

John Dehlin [03:00:31] So you just lie.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] And say you're. You're back on board. You're back on the team.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:36] Yes.

Carah Burrell [03:00:37] Was the culture of your house, was this, like, the only thing that defined your personality growing up? That, like, the only thing people. That's kind of how it sounds right now to me that, like, the only thing that was being talked about was you undoing your heinous, or did you have, like, other things you talked about at the dinner table? Or is it, like, how much of this was, like, the. The main topic of conversation in your house?

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:55] We didn't talk too much about it. I mean, this is what I remember the most because it was what affected me the most. But at some point, right, like, as I realized it was not gonna work, I just went back to having fun and having fun in high school, and I can't remember. I don't think I really did stuff a lot with the guys after, but

John Dehlin [03:01:21] just went back more careful.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:23] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:24] How did things wrap up with Dave Matheson?

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:27] Just stop doing like, I was gonna go on my mission. So we just.

John Dehlin [03:01:30] You said, I'm fixed, I'm good. I mean, what.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:33] Well, okay, so here's the thing. So something that had. Before my parents found out I was gay, something that really made him really proud of me was that. That I had told them that I was not going to date girls because I was going to go on my mission. And the church recommends not dating before going on your mission. So I'm going to be ultra faithful and not date girls.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:54] So I didn't date girls. And I was not encouraged by David to date girls because I was going to go on a mission. So how do you measure that there's any change? So there was not, like, a completion. Okay, you're changed.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:09] Well, he would ask me, like, how would you rate your attractions towards men? And I, at the beginning, when I thought, okay, I'll try this. I'll say, like, I would say, yeah, I think it's working. But then as I realized it was. It definitely didn't work. I. I lied to him and I told him, yeah, I think I'm less attracted to men and blah, blah, blah. And I think this is working and I'm doing great. And.

John Dehlin [03:02:33] Yeah, so he asked for, like, a number, like. Like one to ten.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:35] I can't remember. Yeah, I can't remember exactly. But, yeah, he would ask me, like, about specific guys that I had talked to him before and how attracted I am towards them now and compared to before and stuff like that. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:02:49] And he's so. Just to. So day his name is David Math.

John Dehlin [03:02:53] David Matheson.

Carah Burrell [03:02:53] And he's that famous, kind of got a bald head.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:56] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:02:56] That guy that eventually came out just

John Dehlin [03:02:58] a couple years ago.

Carah Burrell [03:02:59] Just a couple years ago, his wife

John Dehlin [03:03:00] came out of Gay.

Carah Burrell [03:03:01] Yeah. Okay, so he probably liked talking about guys with you, hot guys with you.

John Dehlin [03:03:05] No, seriously? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:08] I think he really believed that he was doing good work. I don't think he was trying to deceive people. I mean, he's the creation of the LDS Church. He. It's not.

John Dehlin [03:03:18] Yeah. He's a victim.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:20] Right.

John Dehlin [03:03:20] Of the system. Right. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:23] Yeah. And good. And kudos to Dave Matheson for eventually coming out.

Carah Burrell [03:03:28] Out.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:29] And admitting you were wrong and you hurt a lot of people.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:33] And I'm glad. I. I've seen him at a couple Equality Utah events and he's. He's dating. I think he's.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:40] Finding happiness and joy and I'm happy for him.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:43] Zach and I had lunch with him recently.

John Dehlin [03:03:46] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:47] Wow. Happy. Anyway, so. Okay, so I'm ready. Getting ready to go on my mission and. And send my papers and. Yeah, my parents are happy that I. I'm.

John Dehlin [03:04:03] You're fixed.

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:04] You turned it off.

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:06] I don't know. I don't think he ever. They ever thought because. Because it was always a recommendation by David that I would touch base with him when I came back to see how everything was going to work out once I. I start dating girls, so. So my parents never thought, okay, you're fixed. You're good enough to go on your mission. Like, you're fixed enough to go on your mission.

John Dehlin [03:04:28] But.

Serving a Mission in Mexico City

Gerardo Sumano [03:04:31] So, all right, so I was called to Mexico City, which I was very disappointed about because I really wanted to come to the US My best friend was called to the. To California, so. And my papers came a little earlier than his. I was pretty jealous that I was going to go to Mexico City.

Carah Burrell [03:04:57] How far away was Mexico City from your house?

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:00] It's. It's about 16 hours driving, but it's only like an hour and 45 minutes. Plane. My. My. My dad's family still lives in Mexico City, so, I mean, it's true. I. It's huge.

Carah Burrell [03:05:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:14] So the part where I served, I hadn't really been most. Most of it, but. But yeah, I had been to Mexico City.

Carah Burrell [03:05:24] And you spoke fluent English by this point, right? And you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:27] Yeah, my English was pretty good. Not as good as it is right now, but, I mean, yeah, still did bilingual school, so. So, yeah, my English was good and it was a good experience and also like a very hard Experience. Part of. I had decided that I was not going to tell my mission president or anyone that I was gay. But I also knew there was a lot of things that I had repented about. And so you know how there's this meetings at the MTC where they really grilled you that if you have any sins you should would confess. And that was hard for me. But I mean, I'm pretty, I think I'm pretty psychologically strong. So I just went through it. I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna confess.

John Dehlin [03:06:24] And when, I mean, when a kid confesses, it's serious because oftentimes they're sent home.

Gerardo Sumano [03:06:28] Oh yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] And it's super embarrassing and shameful and the kid just, just had a big party to the whole ward and community and all extended family are like, like having a big banquet and sending him off on his mission. And everybody's excited. You go to the MTC and just, you know, it can be just a couple of days to a couple of weeks and all of a sudden you're confessing because there's this. They've got the corkscrews and they're just screwing you with the pressure to confess. Then you confess and it's not like you're safe. No, you confess and there's a decent chance you're going to be sent home shamed with your tail between your legs.

John Dehlin [03:07:05] And everybody knows when a missionary comes home after a week or two, it's because they had sex or something like it and didn't confess it. And then they have to do this probationary period where they wait for months to then see if they're worthy to go back out again. And it's this huge shame parade that you avoided by lying. Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:07:27] So congratulations. I'm happy for you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:07:30] It's not only this big complaint conferences where they ask people. It's then later you have a one on one with, with the branch president and he asks you specifically about pornography and masturbation and all these things like, and looking into your eyes.

John Dehlin [03:07:47] And there's this Mormon teaching that Mormon leaders have the spirit of discernment where they can use the Holy Ghost and their priesthood powers to look into your eyes and stare intently and know what's on your heart. Heart. And no. So you may as well confess because they're seeing it anyway.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:04] Is that what you're referring to? But you were wise to that.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:08] You knew that that was puppycock.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:10] Well, no, I kind of, I was nervous but I mean, I was still gonna try to not confess.

Carah Burrell [03:08:15] It's like when you said earlier about going and doing baptisms with the temple. Right. Like, yeah. You knew that, like, I got away with this. They're not gonna know there's no spirit of discernment.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:22] Yeah. It was kind of like on and off. But the MTC is like all that. Those thoughts on steroids.

John Dehlin [03:08:27] Yeah. Turbo.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:28] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:08:30] What's the context of that? They say that if you don't confess, you won't have the spirit throughout your mission, and then salvation is lost because you didn't have the spirit.

John Dehlin [03:08:39] Yeah. Yeah. And then if you, if you haven't confessed and repented of everything, you won't have the spirit, and then you won't be able to teach. And then families that would have had obtained their salvation and been able to go to the celestial kingdom are going to end up in the terrestrial. The celestial kingdom or the Mormon equivalent of hell.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:08:58] Because you couldn't stop masturbating because you didn't repent of touching boobs or kissing a gay guy.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:09:05] When you were growing up. So it's this huge guilt and shame where it's eternal consequence, divinely mandated, where you're not just hurting yourself, you're keeping other people from their salvation.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:17] Yep.

Carah Burrell [03:09:18] As a teenager, that's a teenager. That's painful.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:22] But then something happened at the mtc. I, I, we were in one of the classes, and then the instructor asked us to. Oh, and I was also called the district leader at the mc. So I was like, I mean, they, they.

John Dehlin [03:09:43] You got a leadership colleague.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:44] Which meant God was happy with you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:46] Right, Right. So, so we're in this class and the instructor tells us, okay, now you're gonna kneel and you're gonna pray to God to tell you that the Book of Mormon is true or that the church is true or whatever. Like, you need, you're gonna have a spiritual experience right here, right now.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:09] So everyone kneeled. I kneeled. And I had my scriptures. And I knew about my mom's story of opening the scriptures and finding this, like, super, super inspiring scripture that she, she needed. And I had tried that before as a youth. I had tried to do that before, and it never worked. Every time I opened, it was something random that had nothing to do with my life. But that one time I was kneeling and then praying to God to tell me if it was true and if I was doing the right thing or whatever. I can't remember exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:46] And then I opened the scripture. By that point, I've never read the Book of Mormon in its entirety. I mean, I've been to seminary, but never, like from back to back. And there was this scripture that. I don't know how I missed it because it's one of the most popular scriptures, but you can stop. Okay. You're good.

John Dehlin [03:11:10] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:12] It's one of the most popular scriptures, but I don't know how I never heard of it and opened it. And it's this scripture on ether that talks about weaknesses. And if you come to the Lord, he'll make your weaknesses strong. Strong.

John Dehlin [03:11:27] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:28] So it was this super powerful experience because, I mean, I'm gay, I have a weakness. And the Lord is talking to me. He's telling me the Book of Mormon is real.

John Dehlin [03:11:40] Real.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:44] So. So that's. That. That did two things that gave me a testimony of the. The church is true. And it also. It also made me realize that the church, the. The God had forgiven me even though I. I hadn't confessed. So I didn't need to confess because God had forgiven me because otherwise they're telling me right now here on the mtc that I can't feel the spirit if I not clean. So I must be clean because I felt the spirit.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] They need to think that through a little bit.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:30] Anyway, so that's.

John Dehlin [03:12:32] I just have to say I'm probably too old. Those of you who are 50 or older are going to remember kind of the Magic 8 Ball is this little toy that you would shake and it had water in it and this little like, octagon kind of cube inside. And you would shake it and it would say yes, or you'd shake it and it would say no, or you'd shake it and it would say maybe. And it was just this fun little thing where you'd. With your friends, you'd ask it a question, shake it, and then it would say, yes, go do that, or whatever. Right, right.

John Dehlin [03:13:00] It's a Magic 8 ball. That's kind of what your mom did and what you did. This. This notion of, like, I have a thing, I'll bring it to the scriptures, I'll. I'll randomly find a page and then see what it says. It's kind of like. I call it Mormon Magic 8 Ball. It's. It's kind of a superstitious thing, but, you know, it ends up feeling super powerful when you just happen to turn to the right page.

Gerardo Sumano [03:13:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:23] And of course, God must have led you there, right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:13:27] Yeah. I mean, what better scripture for a gay man than that one there? I don't think there's a better.

John Dehlin [03:13:33] What worse? It depends on your perspective.

Gerardo Sumano [03:13:35] Yeah, yeah. At that point. In that. In that, in that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:41] Miraculous. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:13:45] So yeah. Arrived to my mission. My mission president, he was, he's Mexican. He was a 70 before being a mission president, but he never served a mission. He was a convert and super smart guy. He reminded me in a lot of ways to my dad, like knows a lot about the folksy doctrine of Mormonism

John Dehlin [03:14:13] and

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:16] super knowledgeable about the scriptures. Like super, super knowledgeable and great speaker. Amazing speaker. I. Yes. And this, he has this eyes that like he, when he looks at you, like he. This super interesting, penetrating gray, almost gray eyes. Yeah. The super penetrating. Yeah. So I was a little scared at the beginning. So my trainer had this really bad. Was very remorseful of having been a bad missionary before. He didn't really know the language. Yeah. It kind of seemed to me like he had just been partying up until that point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:05] So it was a gringo, Utah who had been a disobedient missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:09] Yeah. Because he was in the northwest, but they had just split the missions and ended up on the east. Okay. Mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:16] Fresh start.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:17] The greenie.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:19] Yeah. And so he didn't know the lessons very well or the language.

John Dehlin [03:15:27] Man.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:28] So I took, how do you say? I. I just took the responsibility and did most of it. Like contacted people when we taught. I taught like 90% of the lessons and pretty much trained myself. We had a. Alright relationship. I think in some ways he kind of sometimes got. Would get mad that I was, I was just taking the lead way too much.

John Dehlin [03:16:03] Because there's this idea in Mormon missions called Senior companion and junior companion. And a senior companion, someone who's been on the mission longer. Junior Junior companion, usually as someone who's been here less. Sometimes when a missionary has been out a long time and he's being punished or shamed, a more seasoned missionary will be demoted to junior companion over a missionary that it was newer to the mission. But generally speaking, the senior companion has been there longer. They're in charge. The junior companion, especially if they're green or new, defers to the decisions and the leadership of the senior companion. Yeah, but you're saying in effect you were, you were senior Companion even though you were green.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:41] Yeah, pretty much. Right? Yep, Yep. But it went, it went all right. And then after that I did my two cycles with him and then I, the mission president made me train a missionary.

John Dehlin [03:16:57] So this is a promotion.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:58] Yeah, promotion. And then after him I trained again and another jog high school from, From Utah. He was like this massive, huge, huge tall guy and he comes to the mission.

Carah Burrell [03:17:18] And

Gerardo Sumano [03:17:20] he. One of the first things he tells me is like, just so you know, I don't, I don't, I don't believe that tithing thing. It's a thing like, I don't believe we should be paying tithing. I was like, wait, what?

Gerardo Sumano [03:17:37] And, and just stuff, random stuff like that. He would tell me, like, yeah, when I was a, When I was at the MTC or something like that, I prayed about doctrine covenants, section 132. And God told me that that didn't come for him from him.

Gerardo Sumano [03:17:57] I was like, there's no way. What is this guy saying? Like, how is this a thing that you don't believe in? Section 132. You have to believe in the whole scripture. You can't just pick and choose. That's called a cafeteria Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [03:18:14] And you don't believe in tithing, but we have to teach tithing, and we need to make people pay tithing. And just a lot of stuff like that. But we got along well. We had our differences, but he ended up being the only missionary who I came out to.

Gerardo Sumano [03:18:32] He, I think he asked me, like, hey, kind of like, he really was trying to get it out of me. And then I just told him. And by that point, I, I, I was also feeling like, okay, I can be more open, because I was like, like keeping all these feelings and what I had gone through and the fact that I had realized that conversion therapy didn't work and that my plan was I was gonna finish this mission and go be gay at byu.

Gerardo Sumano [03:18:59] That was my plan still. So, so he being a progressive Mormon, I didn't know what that was, but I guess he was a progressive Mormon. I was able to come out from Utah.

John Dehlin [03:19:11] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [03:19:12] Yeah, Yeah. I was able to come out to him, and he, he was super loving, accepting, and hear me out, heard my story. I told him about the guys that I had had a crush done in the past. So he was very understanding and, and his own stuff and loving. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:31] Yeah, we all do.

Gerardo Sumano [03:19:35] And, yeah, that was.

John Dehlin [03:19:36] What year is this?

Gerardo Sumano [03:19:38] 2013.

John Dehlin [03:19:40] Yeah. Like, I'm thinking about when I was a missionary, and again, this was in the late 80s. Yeah. If a missionary had come out to me as having been gay, I would not have taken that well. I would have, I would have, number one thought, ooh, that's bad. And then I would have said, whoa, when I dress, what are you gonna be looking at me? And are you liking me? I would not have had any maturity or respect for, for what was going on now. Now the the year for you is what, 2013. So I mean, yeah, this is like, literally I'm thinking of Mormon stories. Like, this is like when the essays are starting to come out and the Mormons and gays website.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:19] Yeah. So he had read Denver's nephew stuff he knew.

John Dehlin [03:20:23] Oh, wow. So he was an awake. An awakened, intellectually progressive Mormon, right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:27] Yeah, yeah. He was less active before going on his mission, then all of a sudden decided to go on his mission. I have this super popular guy in

John Dehlin [03:20:35] high school, kind of a smart, seasoned, mature kid.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:40] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:41] That's so cool you had that experience.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:44] Packer put out a pamphlet where he's talked about one missionary coming up.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:48] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [03:20:48] Missionary. Giving, giving missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [03:20:50] It was a talk on general conference

John Dehlin [03:20:52] to punch other gay Mormons if they ever. If you have to punch them. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna fault you for. For, for hitting a guy if he's gay.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:02] It is bad. It would be bad for a general authority to do that, but it's fine if you. You do that.

Carah Burrell [03:21:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:21:08] But yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you had that guy.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:10] I mean, obviously I. I came out to him until I felt like I was safe right here. Right. And yeah, it was great. I. I still love him and he. We have.

John Dehlin [03:21:22] What do you think he'll listen to?

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:24] Yeah, he will. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:25] Oh, good.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:26] He knows Mormon stories. He knows. Who's John Delaney.

John Dehlin [03:21:28] Cool.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:28] Yeah. He. He still believes. And progressive Mormon. I, even though he was my companion, had progressive views. He didn't try. He didn't told me about polygamy or like, I. I still was very not knowing about any of that stuff. And he still had a bunch of books brought for a bunch of books from the scholar from byu. What's his name?

John Dehlin [03:21:56] Nibli.

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:57] Nibley. Yeah. A bunch of books from Nibli and the Book of Mormon and all the. The book. Book of Mormon series from Nibli Farms

John Dehlin [03:22:04] stuff, which is the predecessor.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:06] So even though he was progressive, he still enjoyed and loved Nibbly and just orthodox stuff.

John Dehlin [03:22:14] Kind of Mormon quote scholarship.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] Which is pseudo scholarship.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:18] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [03:22:19] It feels intelligent.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:21] Yeah. I remember I really tried to want to read it and I don't understand any of this.

John Dehlin [03:22:26] No one does.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:28] Yeah. I first thought it was because English is my second language, so maybe that's why. But then I hear RFM saying that he has read it and he doesn't understand it either. So.

John Dehlin [03:22:40] We all thought Hugh Nibley was brilliant. It turns out he was just crazy. And because he was so incoherently crazy. We all assumed it was because he was brilliant and we just weren't smart enough. Turns out he was just incoherent and crazy. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:52] Yeah. Anyway, so weirdly, that's when I started getting really into deep, folksy Mormon doctrine and doctrines of salvation. I started collecting books and a big fascination with Jehovah Witnesses. I started learning a lot about what Jehovah Witnesses were, about their beliefs. There were a lot of them in the area, so I would love to debate them on the streets. I actually baptized a couple people who were either former Jehovah Witnesses or who were being taught by Jehovah Witness. As I'm about to get baptized,

John Dehlin [03:23:32] and

Gerardo Sumano [03:23:33] I got to preach some elders from the Jehovah Witnesses and big fascination with them. And my fascination was rooted in the fact that we are in the true religion. And I have to prove that they are wrong. And. And it's super easy to prove they're wrong because their teachings have been changing. And Mormon doctrine does not change since we. I mean, our doctrine comes from Adam, like, all the way back. We haven't changed anything. Thing and everything. Joseph Smith thought we still believe today. And, yeah, we don't change stuff.

John Dehlin [03:24:15] That's Joseph Fielding Smith. It's just the gospel's eternal.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:19] Jesus, you know. You know, well, and everything had changed before Joseph Smith. But that's. You just tell everybody nothing ever changes.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:27] And it doesn't matter if things are changing all the time. We. You just get it in your mind, the church. The church never changes. God never changes. But if it's polygamy or, you know, blacks in the priesthood or the temple ceremony, any. Like, it's all been changing.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:41] Yeah. Everything has changed.

John Dehlin [03:24:43] You had bought that line. Yeah. And. And I would not. Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah, they changed.

Gerardo Sumano [03:24:48] Yeah, they changed. And I would collect their old books to show them. Look, here is your. Your doctrine changed. And like, oh, crap. So it got to a point as a zone leader later, like, where missionaries, especially sister missionaries, would call us and ask us about where scriptures were or about certain doctrines or questions they had. And I was the one responding to their questions. Like, I became this, like, super knowledgeable guy and still. And loving the church, believing it was true, preaching to people, baptizing people, but still in the back of my mind knowing that I was gonna go back and be gay.

John Dehlin [03:25:32] It's so compartmentalized, man. But missions are so intense. They're so hard that it's just hard for me to imagine you being the standout missionary, gospel scholar, and the Whole time you're thinking, I'm not going to be able to stick with this. And it's true. Like, that's some serious compartmentalization.

Gerardo Sumano [03:25:50] Yep. Yeah. And my dad was. My parents were really proud of me. I mean, I was a zone leader really fast. For my dad, that's a big thing, having leadership positions in the church. It's. That's how you show that you are actual actually faithful and a good member. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:09] Your mom's like that. Money with Dave Matheson was the best money I ever spent. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:26:15] Probably. And okay, so right when I arrived from. To my mission, baptisms had the. Dramatically declined because the, The. I think it was like the first week I was on my mission, the. The area presidency set a rule that everyone that was to get baptized needed to go at least five Sundays to church. That's five weeks. Like psych. You're only in one area for six. For six weeks. And then there's changes. They may not change you or move you, but so you. When you get to an area you gotta find. That's when you get to find the first week. You get to find all the people that you're gonna later get baptized.

Gerardo Sumano [03:27:11] So it just became really difficult and declined so soon after that that the area presidency set these goals super, super high goals of lessons and a goal of 1B, one baptism every week. It became the motto in Mexico. Every companionship ship has to have one baptism every week.

John Dehlin [03:27:32] What?

Gerardo Sumano [03:27:34] Yeah, at least one baptism every week. If it's family, it's a. It's a bonus. But that's high.

John Dehlin [03:27:41] That's outrageous.

Gerardo Sumano [03:27:42] Yeah. So there's this goal for all the missionaries in all Mexico to baptize at least one time a week. And I mean, there's a lot of shame if you're not doing it, you're not being faithful, or you are not being super obedient. So, yeah, it was hard. I didn't really do it until I was a zone leader. I was not able to do it. And it had. It depended a lot on the area you were serving too.

John Dehlin [03:28:17] Totally.

Gerardo Sumano [03:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:28:20] So I was.

John Dehlin [03:28:21] By the way, the more poor and desperate the area, the more likely it would be you'd have a baptism, right? Yep. He's nodding his head. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:28:29] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:28:30] The more wealthy and affluent and educated the area.

Gerardo Sumano [03:28:34] Yes, yes. Anyway, so I. I was his own leader. Then the president moved me to another area and he. And it was a super hard area to baptize. That's where he sent. He would send all his aps. After being aps he would send them to be zone leaders in that area. Because you're a zone leader and you're in a super hard area that's like. It's a ward, not a branch, because it used to be a huge ward and now it's a ward with 10 people attending every week, including the bishop's family.

John Dehlin [03:29:08] That's nothing. That's smaller than a branch.

Gerardo Sumano [03:29:10] Yeah, yeah, but it still was, it was not even considered a branch because it used to be a big word, but just many people, just so many people went inactive.

John Dehlin [03:29:21] And for those who are new to Mormon stories or have never been Mormon, this is just a brief segue. I'll just say my very first Mormon Stories episode ever. Episode number one is about my mission experience in Guatemala where there was massive baptismal pressures to baptize and there were companionships that were baptizing 40amonth, which means they weren't just baptizing once a week, they were baptizing on average one a day, right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:29:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:29:44] And the mission got up to like 700, 750 baptisms a month. There was a mission in Chile that had over a thousand a month, the Vina del Mar mission. And so Latin America, the Mormon missionaries in Latin America have this decades long history of baptizing tons and tons and tons of 8 year olds, 7 year olds, drunk people, single moms, whoever, they can pump up the numbers, baptized without lessons, without discussions, go to the beach and just like, hey, you want to follow Jesus, let's go get baptized. Get names off of tombstones, like whatever you could do.

John Dehlin [03:30:19] Baptizing crazy. Then the church would say, oh, look at all the growth and look at all the numbers. And there'd be new wards and new births, branches and new stakes and all the missions are dividing and wards and stakes are dividing and isn't this a miracle?

John Dehlin [03:30:32] And then you fast forward 10, 20 years and you've got these wards that, that they expanded too quickly, they divided too quickly, things got watered down and you're left award's supposed to have 200, 250 active people in it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:30:47] There were at least 300 or 400 people in the list and 10 people attended.

John Dehlin [03:30:52] But when you do these baptismal practices in Latin America and the Philippines elsewhere, you'll get these numbers. But then it's not sustainable. There's huge attrition rates, 90% attrition rates usually. And then you're left with these wards that should have 2, 250 people actively attending and there may be 10 people.

John Dehlin [03:31:12] And it's really decimated the Church in Latin America. And that's what Carah was referring to. Actually have an episode with Dr. Ted Lyon where he talked about when he was, you know, a mission, an MTC president, a mission president and a temple president in Chile. Holland had to go to Chile, Elder Holland, and close 30 stakes, collapsing them, closing all these wards, closing all these stakes because the church was just imploding under this fraudulent Potemkin town expansion numerically. But the, but the actual lived experience of the, of the Latin Americans in the Mormon experience was. Was destroyed by, by fraudulent statistical growth that had no underlying substance or merit to it.

John Dehlin [03:32:00] So that's the background for kind of. And this. Ha. This ebbs and flows. It started with the baseball baptisms in England in the 60s, which ironically elder Holland was a member of the missions in the British Isles when, when the church was starting to experiment with these techniques.

John Dehlin [03:32:17] And, and so it ebbs and flows. These, these eras come where there's massive numerical growth. I'm sure the church is experiencing this in Africa right now. Right. Massive growth and then like, oh my gosh, this is all unsustainable and then contraction and rules about, oh no, now you have to be more careful and, and you know, cautious when you baptize people. But then there'll be the aggressive mission presidents and area presidents that want, want growth.

Gerardo Sumano [03:32:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:45] And it's just screwing with, with people in these developed countries. So it's this whole seedy underbelly of unethical missionary work that's statistics driven, pressure driven, and it's very colonial in its nature. And it's a really gross, unethical, shady thing that the Church has been through. Just Google Sunstone baseball baptisms. Michael Quinn's got an amazing article. Maybe write that in the show Notes. An amazing article about how this happened in the British Isles. So all of that is background for you now. Now coming into a ward that was suffering under this sort of egregious fraudulent statistical expansion. So it's a ward that should have a couple hundred members and it has

Gerardo Sumano [03:33:26] what, 10, 10, including the bishop's bishop's family. Like we would get a church and it was just the bishop upstairs sometimes

John Dehlin [03:33:35] and it's a ward.

Gerardo Sumano [03:33:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:36] But it speaks to the rotting of the church in Latin america For, for 80s and 90s it was this massive expansion. I remember when Mexico had like 100 stakes. It was this huge deal. But all of that is eroding and eroding and the church is slowly rotting in Latin America. Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:33:53] Yep, yep, that's. At that point I Hadn't really seen it. It's been a lot, lot, lot more evident recently. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure. That word was tiny. And obviously super hard to baptize because you're taking people who are.

Gerardo Sumano [03:34:12] It was not a super poor area. So you're taking people to this church that has 10 people in it, and you're telling them, this is the one true church. And you're a zone leader, so you have the pressure of being the example of baptizing every week to the whole zone.

Gerardo Sumano [03:34:35] So I was super, super frustrated because we didn't baptize anyone that whole. That whole cycle. So the. The day before the changes, I called the mission president and I told him, hey, President Presidente, I don't think zone leaders should be in this area. I mean, you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:03] You've tried with your former APs, and they don't baptize. They didn't baptize when they were here. And how are you. How are. How are you expecting us to be the example of the whole, whole zone if we can't baptize? It's just a terrible word and terrible place to preach. And he said, okay, I'll consider it, and hanged up. And then the next day, day, he demotes me to a minor. Oh,

John Dehlin [03:35:36] you challenged priesthood authority?

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:35:39] That's a no. No.

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:40] I was so mad. You imagine, like, how am I gonna tell my parents, hey, now I'm a minor.

John Dehlin [03:35:48] A junior.

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:48] A junior companion. Yeah. Sorry, is menor in Spanish.

John Dehlin [03:35:51] How many months in your mission was that?

Gerardo Sumano [03:35:55] Over a year? Yeah, over a year. I've been. I've been a song leader for eight months. Six.

John Dehlin [03:36:01] Oh, my gosh. That's shaming. Yeah, I mean, that would be. People don't understand once you become a zone leader, you stay a zone leader for the rest of your mission and maybe you become ap.

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:36:13] The only reason someone would ever be demoted from his own leaders, like, if they had sex with someone or, like, broke a serious mission rule. So to be demoted to a junior.

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:23] Not even, you know, like, there's district, there's district leader, there's senior companion, and then the lowest is junior companion. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:33] And that was just for giving a suggestion.

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:36] What was that like?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:37] It was horrible. I felt horrible.

John Dehlin [03:36:39] He been your mission president from the start, or was it a new mission president?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:43] He had been from the start.

John Dehlin [03:36:44] So he's the one who called you as a Zoni earlier?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:46] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [03:36:47] Oh, that must have been heartbreaking too, because you probably had a good relationship with him, right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:55] But he didn't explain why I'm doing it?

Gerardo Sumano [03:36:56] No, he didn't explain why. Nothing. Oh, junior companion. Oh, well, I was on that. After that, I kind of like, was like not caring too much. Like, I was like, okay, whatever. Like, I'm mad. I'm not gonna put a ton of effort anymore. I'm just gonna let my senior companion take the lead. Whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [03:37:16] So on Mondays I would just go. When we would write our families, I started going into like YouTube and just learning more about like, I mean, I would justify thinking, like, I'm just gonna look for like, I. I loved listening to like McConkey's talks and Hugh B. Brown stock talks of the profile of a prophet. And that's good. I. I had downloaded before from YouTube and got them into CD piece, so I can. But so what I started doing is at that point was I just started researching other stuff anyway, so I found. I can't remember which one was first, but I found your interview with what? Bradshaw?

John Dehlin [03:38:03] Mine?

Gerardo Sumano [03:38:03] Yeah. Oh, the one about homosexuality.

John Dehlin [03:38:06] It's a good one.

Gerardo Sumano [03:38:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:38:08] Yeah. So Bill Bradshaw is a Harvard trained biologist who believes in evolution. He was a biology professor while Margi and I were at byu. But he also, his son comes out as gay while he's a BYU professor and he's been a mission president by this point. He's been in stake presidencies and he's a super well respected biology professor at BYU who taught evolution to BYU students. But he became one of the early advocates, like, let's just say, I want to say late 90s, early 2000s, he starts talking about the biological basis of homosexuality.

John Dehlin [03:38:41] And by the way, to this day, 2021, he's still a believing Mormon. I'm not so sure about Marge's wife, but he's still a believing Mormon, but super buttoned up. Harvard trained, thoughtful, sensitive lover of science. Becomes one of the early LGBT advocates who also starts Family Fellowship, which was. Was like this support group for parents of gay kids in Utah. And he talks all about that and his son coming out, his son Brett coming out. We've had Bradley, Brett Bradshaw, also on Mormon Stories, his son. But. But Bill Bradshaw is a legend in, in LGBTQ Mormon advocacy and he was the co PI with me and my professor at Utah State on all the LGBTQ research that, that I've done from my PhD.

John Dehlin [03:39:27] So he's a legend and he's brilliant and he's faithful and he's one of the coolest interviews I've ever done. More. And he's a dear friend. Yeah. So you stumble on that interview. What happens?

Gerardo Sumano [03:39:36] Yeah, I. I listen to some of it. Probably the most impactful part was when he talks about his son's wedding and how beautiful the wedding was and how just for him, there was nothing wrong with it, and he just couldn't see how a God could not be okay with. With. With that ceremony or wedding or whatever. It was really impactful. At the same time was like. It was a really hard cognitive dissonance. How is this former mission president, BYU professor, saying these things? This doesn't make any sense. This doesn't fit. So I just put it in the. On the shelf, I think. And then I stumble upon.

John Dehlin [03:40:20] But you loved it, too.

Gerardo Sumano [03:40:21] Yeah, Yeah, I loved it.

John Dehlin [03:40:23] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:40:24] And then I stumbled upon the Book of Abraham video where Robert Ridner appears in it. I can't remember what it's called, but it's this video where they tell the story about the Book of Abraham and they just says, talk about the problems with the Book of Abraham. And that really, really shook me. I was like, okay, if the Book of Abraham is not a real translation, then what about. How does this fit into the Book of Mormon translation? What if that's not a translation either? So for a couple of weeks, I was really bummed by that. It was real hard. Really, really bad, hard struggle into just the idea of maybe the church isn't true. Super hard. It was. And at the end, I was able to put it on the shelf. But then the next change, the. The mission president made me an ap.

John Dehlin [03:41:31] Whoa. Curveball. Trial of faith. You're rewarded after the trial. Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [03:41:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:40] He was testing you?

Gerardo Sumano [03:41:41] I think so. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:41:44] How'd that make you feel?

Gerardo Sumano [03:41:45] Oh, let's do super, super good. Super happy. And so it stands for assistant to the President. And you and your companion are pretty much like top missionaries. Yeah. The whole mission looks up to you.

John Dehlin [03:42:00] Like 100 companionships. 125 companionships, and you're the top companionship.

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:04] Yeah. And they're looking at you, and you train them and you go and visit to them and do exchanges with them and. And teach them how to teach and. And are always on. Not always, but you go on tours with the mission president and you get to go on the van with the mission president and learn from him super closely and teach with him. Anyway.

John Dehlin [03:42:26] It's a huge honor. And your dad had been ap. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So telling my dad, I was.

Carah Burrell [03:42:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:32] My dad told me later that one of the first things he did when. When he found out I was an ap. He called his. His mission president and told him.

John Dehlin [03:42:44] I mean, in a. In a patriarchy, promotion is one of the most sacred things.

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:53] It's validating. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:42:55] And

Gerardo Sumano [03:42:58] I just became even more, like, faithful and obedient and, like, just in steroids rights and.

John Dehlin [03:43:08] Double down.

Gerardo Sumano [03:43:08] Yeah, double down. And at some point, I don't. I can't pinpoint when, but at some point during that time is when I decided I'm. I have to go back home and marry a woman. I have to do it. Like, I need to keep. I need to stay in the church. It was. I just had so many powerful experiences, I think, teaching so many. Baptizing every week, teaching a lot of people, just so many good experiences.

John Dehlin [03:43:36] And that's. I think that's a great, dramatic place. Kind of a cliffhanger. Yep. Here's the cliffhanger, folks. Like, will Gerardo finish his mission? How will his faith, you know, crisis ensue? If it does or doesn't? Will he end up dating girls after his mission? Will he go to byu, Idaho. Will he marry a woman? Will he marry a guy? Stay tuned for more from Mormon Stories Podcast, where you'll hear the next part of Gerardo's epic story. Is that all right? Is that okay to take a break?

Gerardo Sumano [03:44:08] Yeah, it's perfect.

John Dehlin [03:44:09] Yeah. We can't talk about any of this during our break so that we don't ruin it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:44:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:44:14] All right, Gerardo, thanks. This has been fun.

Gerardo Sumano [03:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:44:17] All right, so we're gonna. We're gonna take a break, probably end part one, and then we'll come right back with more from Gerardo's cliffhanging epic story about his Mexican Mormon journey. Stay tuned. Than.

Becoming Assistant to the Mission President

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1440

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of my Epic Mormon Stories podcast. Interview with my dear friend, Gerardo Sumano. I'm Dr. John Dehlin, and we just spent a good four hours with Gerardo talking about his epic Mormon Mexican journey. Gerardo was born and raised in Mexico as a Mormon or as a Latter Day Saint. His parents. His dad was a convert to the church. His mom was also a convert to the church. But just talking about his upbringing in Mexico, we talked about him, you know, growing up in the church, doing all the Mormon things from a Mexican perspective, kind of being in a model Mormon Mexican family, his dad in leadership positions, etc.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] We talked about him in high school and realizing at some point in his childhood that he was gay and how he reconciled that with his Mormon orthodoxy. We talked about his parents discovering that he was gay and how he dealt with that. Talked about his Mormon mission in Mexico. And that's kind of where we left off when we left off. During parts. During part one, first four hours, Gerardo had just been demoted from zone leader and then magically promoted to assistant to the president.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] But prior to becoming AP on his mission, he had started to learn about some of the problems with the church history, started to learn about Book of Abraham. Of course, he had questions about his own sexuality. And throughout this whole point, there's this theme of compartmentalization, where Gerardo, on the one hand, is a true believing Mormon, but on the other hand, because he knows his gay, Knows he's gay, and to some degree likes being gay, realizes that at some point he's going to have to break free, come to the US if he can go to byu and eventually possibly leave the church. But maybe as a believing Mormon, just a lot of interesting compartmentalization going on.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] But this brings us so. So we'll come now right back to the story right where we left off, where you've just been made assistant to the president. How many months into your mission?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:17] Uh, I think I had, like, six

John Dehlin [00:02:18] months left, so 18 months in your mission?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Your AP and you say you were doubling or tripling down.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] And that's when you realized that you were gonna. This was a change in plan.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Because once you got made ap, you decided, I need to marry a woman. I need to make the Mormon orthodox thing work. And that's what high leadership callings can do to people.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:41] Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Oh, and of course, we've got Carah Burrell here with us. Hey, Carah. Hey. Welcome back.

Carah Burrell [00:02:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Thanks for doing all the production stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:02:50] No problem.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] All right. All right, Gerardo, where do we go now?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:56] All right, so I was made AP and I was enjoying it, loving it. And a lot of the mission president would want us as APs to work on our area as much as possible. So we were still baptizing a lot. Baptizing every week was a thing for us. And at the same time, we had to be doing training for missionaries and coming up with strategies on how to help missionaries baptize more people. So as I decided finally that, yeah, like, I got way more converted into the church and decided that I'm going to go back and marry a woman later, at the same time, I just became really strict as a missionary, being an AP and wanted everyone to be just as strict as me, following the rules. Like, if they don't want to be on their missions, why don't we just send them back?

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Oh, man.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:01] There was this one time.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] I like this, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:03] Yeah, it's bad. But there was this strategy that. So you know, when mission presidents are trained by the quorum of the 12 right before they're sent out for the three years mission, they come here and they have this like weeks long training with the Quorum of the twelve and several general authorities. And I think a lot of what they emphasize, and he told us, was that missionary mission presidents should make sure that missionaries stayed in the mission as long as possible. Because when missionaries are sent home, most of them, a very high percentage of them go inactive.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:49] So it was a pretty big mission of my mission president to keep missionaries in the mission for as long as possible, even if they were breaking the rules. Pretty hardcore. So, yeah, there was a little conflict, I feel like there. But I mean, we're still doing good work.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] So he didn't want to send missionaries home that you felt should be sent home.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:13] Yeah, yeah, right. And then so obviously that made a lot of missionaries to not like me in the mission. A lot of. I made a lot of good friends, like the obedient missionaries who actually baptized and did the good work. I was mostly friends with them, but there was this group of missionaries who absolutely hated me.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] I have to note that some of the most homophobic. This is all this has a connection, I promise. Some of the most homophobic humans that have ever lived have been closeted gay Christian pastors who had a lot of self loathing about their sexuality. And so the way that they dealt with that was to pack it down and swing the other direction and be super strict, super Christian and super homophobic.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Vocally, I wonder if this Tripling down, doubling or tripling down of you saying, I can do this. I'm going to be faithful and follow the Mormon way. Whether that was part of your strictness for yourself, which then meant you were imposing that on other people. Yeah, I'm not trying to say.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:33] Yes, that. That's, that's exactly what was happening, I think. Yeah. And okay. Another interesting story was Elder Bedner was visiting Mexico City. I don't know exactly what for, but it was not to visit the mission, but me and my companion, we got to. To be at the visitor center where he went and visited the visitor center. Because the visitor center had just been recently remodeled and reopened. And so there was. So he visited there and then there was like this little meeting with all the sister missionaries from the, from the visitor center who sang for him. And he just shared a few words to us. But it just.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Was he cool, dude?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:19] No,

John Dehlin [00:07:22] he didn't even pause.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:25] I just was just expecting. I don't know, you're reading the scriptures about the apostles and like how they approach poor people and they are going preaching people and helping people and just talking to anyone. But I was just very surprised about

John Dehlin [00:07:40] how,

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:43] how they were treating this as a very corporate thing. Like the visitor center was closed. Nobody was able to go in. It's like nobody should know that Elder Bednar is here. And this is super weird for me. It's like this Mexican Mormons, they would be incredibly blessed or feel incredibly honored to. To be able to see an apostle

John Dehlin [00:08:12] of the Lord Jesus Christ. Right. Special witness.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:15] Yeah, well, they see Jesus, you know, they talk to Jesus every once in a while.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] That's the belief, right? That's the perception.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] And yet he was being aloof or standoffish or secretive.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:27] Right? Like just this like kind of like we were going to take a picture and he's just like kind of. You're not supposed to hug him or, or like, you know, like do anything, like ask for pictures just by yourself with him or anything. You don't talk to him. It's just this very weird thing. And that was a little conflicting for

John Dehlin [00:08:51] me how that kind of corporate and standoffish.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so that was the experience with Elder Bedner. I have my picture right next to him.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] You do have it still? Yeah, I have put that in the show notes. Send it, send it to Carah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:09] Yeah, I think my, my mom should have it, but I think they have it. Yeah, I'm right there. Anyway, so I want to see that photo. So I.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Did he make any Harsh or gaffes or harsh statements or mean things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:25] He did this really interesting thing where he blessed us. He blessed the missionaries that were there. It's like, oh wow, this is pretty cool that he's blessing us to be able to go out. I can't exactly remember what he said, but just baptized and have success and blah blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Partial superpowers.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:46] Yes. You know, yeah, yeah. I just felt super privileged, but yeah, anyway, and then I went home with a very, very strong testimony of the church. My dad was on the stake presidency back then. And then I don't know exactly how he did it, but the stake president was gonna, he was, my dad was the first counselor and the state president was gonna be out of town the week I arrived. So my dad was the one doing the interview to release me.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Your own dad. What a proud moment. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:27] So it was this very emotional and powerful experience of me sharing with my dad my testimony of the church, what I had learned, my most powerful experiences on my mission and just crying throughout the whole interview and telling my dad like, I know I need to marry a woman and follow the church like the covenant path and, and I know I can do it.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] And

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:05] something I, I, I told him too was, I don't think this was on, this was later, but that maybe I had, I still wanted to come to byu and I, and I told him maybe going to BYU would be easier for me to find a woman who, who would be okay with me having same sex attraction.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Those exist.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:32] I still marry.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay, wait before, just really quickly. It's common for a gay Mormon male missionary to get the impression from however they get it that if they serve a faithful mission that when they get home and Kyle Ashworth talked about this like being in the airport on the way home, it's like, did Heavenly Father take away my gay feelings? Had anyone ever given you the impression or did you pick up the expectation that maybe if you served a super faithful mission that God would take your gay away once you serve, completed your faithful mission?

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:08] Yeah, I think in some way I thought that, but I didn't think it was going to be. I didn't think it was like Kyle Ashworth or many other people who thought it was just gonna be a switch. I didn't see it that way. I did think that the God is gonna bless me and he is gonna put in my way a woman who I can fall in love with and he's gonna bless me because I served a honor, honorably faithful mission.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:32] And so soon as probably the first day I arrived I found out that my parents had closed down the family business, lost a lot of money and were in really bad debt. My dad had lost his full time job as well and we were as a family in a very bad economical situation.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:57] But while I was on my mission, I had. Being an ap. I had found out. I found out that there was a. The mission president from the Northwest Mission was a super rich man from Idaho Falls who was planning on starting a foundation to help Latino returned missionaries to come to BYU Idaho.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:26] I talked to my dad and told him my plan of it's going to BYU Idaho and. Because that's where I will be able to find a worthy girl who will be able to be fine with me struggling with this. Because I know I'm probably gonna still struggle with it at some point.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] Being gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:45] Yeah. And a Mexican sister is not gonna understand this. Like no one. Again, no one talks about this in Mexico. It's just a very taboo topic in the church. I think the idea also came from all the people at Evergreen. But they're married to women and they're American. Right. So there must be like faithful sisters who are.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:07] Would be okay with it.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] And turns out there are. Right? Yeah. No, that's actually solid.

Carah Burrell [00:14:12] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:12] So anyway, and so. And my mom asked me to contact David Matheson again and touch base with him. So I did. I immediately got two jobs and that's how I was able to afford the meetings with him.

Post-Mission Life and Moving to BYU-Idaho

John Dehlin [00:14:28] And so you met with David Matheson after my mission. After your mission, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:32] And we. We had just a few tight, man. We had a few. A few sessions and where he kind of asked me how my mission went and we did a little. It was weird because I. I did feel like he. It was not the same approach as. As before. As late. I don't know, it just felt different. Like something was off with him. So I just met with him a few times. Then I later find found out that, that, that by that point he had already been kind of like realizing that conversion therapy was not working at that point.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:19] Anyway, So I got two callings. I was a seminary teacher at 6am, had like 10 students. Where in Merida.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:34] And got a calling of the word mission leader. So I had two callings, two jobs, going to temple, doing all the Mormon stuff. And I was really sad and depressed in some way. It's like. And I didn't understand what was, what was wrong because I was doing everything.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:54] And then in one of the YSA activities I think was I met this girl. This is pretty Attractive girl. Like, I mean, I'm gay. And I think every gay man will be able to say this. I'm gay, but I be, I can tell when a woman is attractive.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:13] So this very good looking girl I met on the YSA activity and I think I asked for her number or something like that, or later I found out who he, who she was or I think I asked my dad who she was and then my dad told me. And then anyway, I ended up contacting her and just started going out on dates. I mean, I think she liked me and she was a returned missionary too.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:42] So we, we started going on dates and he was just very uncomfortable. Especially when I started noticing that because I, again, I can go out with my friends, girls and have no problem with it. I can be alone with one of my girlfriends. I'm. I know she's not attracted to me. I know she's not attracted to her. I'm not attracted to her. But here it was different. And I had never experienced this before where she would want to hold my hand or something like that. And I would just feel really, really, really uncomfortable and not like it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:22] And by that point I was already, I had already applied to byu, Idaho and I think I had received the acceptance letter. So I told her, kind of like on our last date, I told her, hey, I received the acceptance letter for pyu, Idaho. And she kind of got like a little upset. Kind of like, are you playing with me or what are we doing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:44] And I was like, no, I still don't know if I should go. Blah, blah, blah, you know, what were you feeling? I think I was genuinely conflicted, but I don't know, it just felt really uncomfortable. But I knew, I mean, this is a pretty attractive girl. It doesn't get better than this.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] And did you try to kiss?

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:06] So she, she. So I, I took her home and she, when I said bye, she kissed me.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] And

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:17] that was horrible.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Really?

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:21] Yeah, horrible for me. Like, not like she's a bad kisser, just like the experience, I just, it was yucky for me.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] Aversion. You had a ver. You experienced aversion. Something. You know, studying this stuff, you know, we don't think about the fact that there's attraction, but then there's aversion. And those are different things. You can have no attraction all the way to a ton of attraction, but you can also have no aversion to a lot of aversion. And those are actually different things. And, and they can occur at different levels simultaneously. And not everyone who's gay Lesbian and or bisexual experiences the same levels of aversion versus attraction. But. But if, you know, some of the most tragic stories are gay men that marry women that experience a lot of aversion, so when they actually have sex, they weep after sex because it was so awful.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] And then for others, it's like, oh, yeah, we had sex and it worked. I just didn't enjoy it. There's a real big difference between having aversion and not experiencing aversion. You're saying you did experience.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:24] Oh, it's probably one of the most traumatic experience of my life.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Oh, my goodness. I'm so.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:29] Because I me here returning from my mission, knowing that this is what I'm supposed to do and feeling that aversion was just horrible. So.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] Because you have to be thinking about, can I do this for the rest of my life?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] And more, not just kiss. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:47] So I just went back into my car. I dropped her off at her house and went on my car. And I called my best friend who had also just came back from his mission from California, and told him, hey, I'm picking you up right now. I need to talk to someone because I just had a really bad experience. So I picked him up and I told him about it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:11] He just didn't say much, but. But it was helpful for me to process it and, yeah, go through. Okay. I'm a very analytical person. I can think of future stuff really easy and what are the possibilities of things that could happen.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:36] So pretty quickly after that, I decided, no, this is not gonna work. I can't marry a woman. There's. There's no way. I already went through the conversion therapy. I'm meeting with David Matheson. I was thinking it was working. He's telling me it looks like it's working.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:01] I already serve a mission, and this. This is bad. This is bad. And what was really probably worked towards my advantage is that I knew what it was supposed to feel like kissing someone that you're attracted to because you had done it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] Unlike Kyle.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Who never had the chance to do it. You had done it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:20] Right. So I had felt what he felt to be attracted. I have a crush on someone or going on dates with someone. I have felt the butterflies and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:32] And this was completely the opposite. So if I could explain, probably it would be like a. Like a super straight man trying to kiss intentionally and romantically a man. Just how. That's how it felt to me.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:51] So I was already accepted to byu, Idaho. So I was like, well, I guess Back. Let's go back to plan A.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Back to plan A. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:02] And I knew BYU Idaho was super conservative, so it was going to be way harder to try to be open like just like experimental gay while at BYU Idaho probably honor code. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] I just have to jump in and say that part of something that's really insidious that we don't think about is Mormon dating culture for teenagers and then how that affects a potentially gay or lesbian kid because gay and lesbian kids, well, first of all, they're probably suppressing their same sex sexuality and a lot of them may not even know for sure if they are gay because they're, they're taught to not date seriously at all, let alone with a member of the same sex. Right. But then, you know, every single gay Mormon man I've ever interviewed didn't have any romantic experience until after they married a woman.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] And then later, later, later. And it was then that they realized that what they were missing once they finally had some type of romantic experience with someone of the same gender. And, but, but in a Mormon culture you don't get the chance to do that normal type of experimentation often not even as a heterosexual teen, let alone a gay one. And so it's, it, it's just. So I'm so glad you were able to, I'm glad we're interviewing you because it just speaks to how crucial it is for teens to have healthy normative teen experiences, gay or straight. And this, this applies to, you know, the, the straight Mormon who has low libido, for example, and they don't know that.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] And then they marry someone and then they realize they really don't like sex. But now whoever they married is locked into marriage with them for the rest of their lives and it turns out they just don't like sex because there, that are asexual.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:57] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] And that's, it's not that I'm saying we all need to sleep around with everybody, but I am saying like there's a reason why normal people have healthy normative dating and, or sexual exploration in the teen or early adult years because really big decisions ride on that ability to date, court and even make out. And I'm, I'm so sad for all the straight and non, straight Mormon kids that don't have that experience. And I'm so happy that you were able to have that experience because it probably saved that Mexican woman or anyone else you might, you know, probably saved you and them and potential children. Yeah, a lot of headache. And that's why the Mormon dating culture can be so positive for the church's interests, super unhealthy and against the best interests of, of some or many of the youth who live under that purity, modesty, law of chastity, culture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:59] Right, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So, meaning probably a lot of people. I've been trying to answer this throughout the interview, but I keep forgetting. Maybe a lot of people would be wondering, why byu? Why. Why not move out of your house? Just like my dad did it, right? He moved out of his house. The reason is, in Mexico there is especially, at least in Merida, there's this very strong culture of you don't move out from your house until you're married.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:35] So all of my friends from high school, they didn't move out. They, most of them are still living with their parents unless they're married. And if they moved out was to move to Canada or go another, to another country.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:50] So there was not like this option for me of like moving to Mexico City and go to school there. It's like, why would. And for my parents, it would be like, you have the same sex attraction issue and you're gonna go to a non Mormon school, you're gonna get lost super fast.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] You'll start dating.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:12] Right, Right. So you have to stay home. That was my. What my dad would have preferred stay home. And in the last case, like, I was able to convince my dad at the beginning that byu Idaho was probably going to be the best option for me anyway. So I just.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] If you didn't go there probably would have been really hard.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] For you. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:33] I don't know how. I don't know if I would have been able to survived. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Your parents looking over your shoulder, watching every move, afraid of what you might do. Who are you with? What were you doing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:47] That's how it was when those six months that I was home, that's how it was. Even as a returned missionary, it's like

John Dehlin [00:26:53] their job to keep you from falling into the gay clutches of death.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:57] Yeah, yeah. My dad really wanted me to stay here. He looked into several universities there, and one of the most prominent ones, which is pretty expensive, he told me, I'll pay for it. And I was like, how are you going to pay for it, dad? We barely have money to eat and pay for the bills. I'll get a job here and start. Because he used to teach there. At some point, I'll get a job here. And he really wanted me to stay, but I decided to come here to byu Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] And you fulfilled all his Worst fears.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:27:41] Sorry, I don't mean to give it away. Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:27:46] And more and more probably appearing on this podcast right now.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:55] So I came to byu, Idaho. That's new experience. I never lived. I've been to the US before, but not lived. Definitely different. Different culture. Super conservative. Idaho, super cold. I arrived on the winter. Yeah. And I'm from like paradise. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Beach.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:17] Yeah, beach. Mexico. Like 100 degrees almost whole year. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Alaska. It's like going to North's cold, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] It's worse than Logan. I. I hear it's super cold. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:32] Yeah. Snow most of the year, I think. My. So what I had to do really fast was get a job and the foundation helped me find a job, which was good. As an international student, you can only work on campus with a visa. With a student visa. So I came with a student visa and I started working on campus as a cleaning toilet at 4am in the morning. And I mean, I still felt good, if not being policed by my parents and being able. I mean, at that point I was not off the rails or anything, but I just felt like I could finally be myself without having someone over my shoulder looking at everything.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] I did feel freedom.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:30] Yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine freedom in Rexburg, cleaning

Carah Burrell [00:29:34] toilets in the morning? That doesn't speak to the homophobia that is prophecy preferable.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:40] Yeah. And so I, I had that job for the first two semesters.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Let me ask you, America's probably never been great with. With people south of the border, you're never great, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] But it's been, it's been particularly bad the past several years just with how we talk about immigrants and people coming from Mexico and, you know, I don't know when it's ever been good or happy or positive, but what was it like being Mexican, coming to white, freaking super white Rexburg, Idaho? Like, it's hard to imagine a whiter town than Rexburg, Idaho. And how did people treat you? Great. Did they not you treat you so great? What was it like?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:24] I found friends really fast.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] So people were nice to you?

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:27] Yeah. All the. The one time I, I felt horrible, like I would say maybe discriminated against or like people looked me down was when Trump won the election and just the. How students would talk about immigrants in front of me or even at work. They would talk in between each other just about immigrants and how they shouldn't be here and stuff like that. That was really, really hard. But generally, generally it was a good experience. I found, I found good friends. I found this group of friends and Also, I came here with my best friend from back home who had served his mission in California. We came together.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Were you roommates or.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:19] Yeah, so we were roommates the first semester. For the first semester. Yeah, we're still friends still today. So yeah. And yeah, this friend, this group of friends I met because of him, they were friends from his mission or people that he had met from his mission and stuff like that. Anyway, I ended up being better friends with them than he was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:44] And one of them was openly gay. Openly gay as like just. He would tell anybody that would ask, I'm gay. But he was not dating around. He. He was older, probably 26, 27. I. I don't know, but he was pretty, pretty old. He had been in school for like seven years. He had been on his mission in between, but because of his. I later found out, because of really bad depression, he would just fail semester after semester. He was into a lot of debt and I was able to see his life and how wrecked it was trying to live them, trying to live the Mormon celibate life.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:35] And that was the, that was the option I had left. Right. If I was going to stay in the church, it was celibacy because I

John Dehlin [00:32:41] knew you had the aversion.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:42] Yeah, I knew women was not going to work.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] And so celebi celebs. He looked, Looked what to you from

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:50] this guy is just horrible. And this was really early on at. By Idaho when I, when I met, when I met him, I knew he had been on a little bit of a. He had a cr. At some point, had a crush on a guy and had kissed a guy and had been kicked out for a few semesters. That, that also contributed on why he had been there for so long and was on antidepressants and just, just really sad. I mean, he was a good person. I liked him, but just this very sad life.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:27] So 27, 28 maybe, and still in school. I don't know that. But that really gave me to perspective and like, okay, yeah, maybe celibacy is not gonna work either. So I started having a lot of success at school.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:52] Had a 4.0 GPA, most, most of the four years of school. And I was able to find a really good job on campus as a graphic designer for the executive team for which we would, we would work on the projects for the president of the university. I worked there for several semesters.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:15] And yeah, I was enjoying it. I like graphic design, like, like photography, taking class. I was really liking it. And at the same time I started dating and going on Dates with guys.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Okay, now let's talk about that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Honor code, BYU Idaho.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:35] Yeah. So there's. There's an underground, definitely of gay students who would date around and just do hookups. And I mean, just the normal apps, you know, try Tinder or Grindr. They exist there

Carah Burrell [00:34:57] because this wasn't too long ago. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:59] This was 2016, so five years ago.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Okay. So just to be explicit, at BYU Idaho and probably BYU, most certainly BYU, there are gay Mormon students.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] That are signed the honor code. They're attending to all public appearances. They look straight and. Or faithful. And then behind the scenes, they're on Tinder or Grindr.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Hooking up. And when you say hooking up, I mean, do you mean hooking up in all the ways?

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:30] But yeah, all the things that, like, a normal person in university would do happens. And it doesn't just happen with. With gay people. It happens with straight people. It's not super common, but I knew several. I had several straight friends who would have sex with girls and then marry in the temple after that. So it's not super unheard of. It happens. There's definitely a lot of fear, especially among the gay community or the gay students at BYU Idaho being found out by the honor code. So you have to be super careful on the apps. No one has the real pictures or pictures. You have to make sure that it's actually another student, which I don't think the honor code has ever gone on the apps to make, to be.

Navigating Sexuality and Faith at BYU-Idaho

John Dehlin [00:36:25] To send spies.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:27] Yeah. But there is definitely a lot of fear and a lot of fear of being out. While at byu, you'll see more people that are out and proud and even when they're maybe dating in the underground at BYU Idaho, there's probably a handful of people who are actually out and say to anyone, yeah, I'm gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:52] Because what happens, at least at BYU Idaho is once you come out, you get like a spotlight and your bishop is looking, like, making sure you're not, like, he starts interviewing you more, giving you more responsibilities at church.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:07] If you're out and then there's a honor code report, the honor code is more likely to believe the report because you're already out. While if you're closeted, then first the honor code has to prove that you're actually gay and then prove also that you actually did something gay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:26] So there's this really, this big, big fear is being out. So I was never publicly out, only to, like, friends and really, really close friends of people that I felt I could trust. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] I would only imagine. I don't know how scared you would have been, but I would imagine if I were in your shoes, I would have been terrified because BYU will kick a student out for drinking alcohol, smoking, or having sex. But then the Mormon Church is famously homophobic and afraid of and punishing to gay people. You. You. So there's all that that just white us gay students have to deal with at byu, but like, BYU Idaho is your salvation. So, number one, you're coming from a develop, developing country. It's your second language. You needed to get away from your parents because it was not going to be good if you stayed there. But you're also on a student visa and, you know, this is like your one shot to be in America and to get away from your family and to get a US Education, which there's probably benefits to that in terms of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Eventual income, you know, potential.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] And income potential. And so if I were you, I would have been just. I would have been afraid to date, come out as gay, or date any man for fear of being found out and then sent home and having that kind of American dream dash.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:00] Yeah. I mean, there was. There was the fear, obviously, every time,

John Dehlin [00:39:05] but it didn't stop you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:06] No.

Carah Burrell [00:39:08] Any closeted BYU gay students are taking notes of what to do, how to get through it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:15] I. I do feel like the fear among the gay students is way they. They take it a lot more seriously than probably they should. If you're smart about it, Most people don't get caught. I mean, from all the students that I. That I met a lot of gay people at BYU Idaho and only know of maybe two that were caught by the honor code, and only one was actually convicted or kicked out or however you want to call it, because the honor code has to prove to you that you actually did. Did something. So the only way it would happen is if the other gay person or the other person that you're doing something with goes and confesses. So that is probably the major fear.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] Condemning themselves if they do that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:09] Yeah, they would.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Why would they do that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:11] They would feel bad. Like, for example, there's a lot of experiments. I know there's a lot of students experiment. Bisexual students who may sometimes have girlfriends, and then they get on Grindr or on Tinder to find guys and experiment stuff. So if one of those guys ever did stuff with you and then feels bad and wants to repent because he's gonna marry his girlfriend, then you're screwed if he gives your name. But that only happens if you actually give your Real name.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] If on Grindr.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:47] On Grindr or Tinder. Or in the actual date, usually you don't.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] So use a fake name.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:53] I don't think I did. I don't think I did. But I would see. I would see other people, like, not give their. Their name, for example.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] So I just have to say, historically, in the gay community, as I understand it, this has led to really, this sort of like, forcing people to live in the closet and in the dark and in the shadows. I've heard stories about bathroom stalls at BYU or truck stops or rest stops, just driving behavior into dark, seedy places. That's not good for anyone. It's not good for the students. It's not good for, you know, there's nothing good about it. It drives maybe well.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:35] And there's a fear of STDs, too.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] STIs. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:38] Yeah. STIs. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Secret and shame and is always.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:49] And then how do you get. How do you get tested?

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:51] Because you are at byu, Idaho, with the. The student. If. If you have the student health plan, the only hospital you can go to is the student center. The student center. Yeah. And why are you gonna go say, like, hey, I want to get an STI test.

Carah Burrell [00:42:09] I sat on a really dirty toilet at a truck stop. Trust me, it wasn't gay sex or anything.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Well, there is Planned Parenthood. I don't know if.

Carah Burrell [00:42:17] Is there one in Rexburg?

John Dehlin [00:42:18] I don't know if Rexburg has Planned Parenthood.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:20] I think they. I think they do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] That would be an option. Thank goodness for Planned Parenthood.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:24] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] Byu. If there's any BYU students listening, if you need an STI test, go to Planned Parenthood.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:33] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:33] Better safe than sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:35] Yeah. So, yeah. What else about. So definitely not a lot of people out.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] And were you guys ever talking about, like, the. The men you dated? Like, oh, do you still believe? Or did you serve a mission? And how do you reconcile the fact that you and I are making out right now with the fact that you believe the church is true? And did you ever have talks about beliefs and. And. And that sort of thing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:03] Most of the time, the hookups, it's like a hookup, and that's it. Like, so shallow is super shallow.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] You don't want to talk. That's another thing that's unhealthy is you're not able to just, like, date and talk and get to know each other and, you know, then things progress or not. It's like, tell them as little as possible. Get in, get out, metaphorically speaking, and you know, just get your needs met. But there's no emotional intimacy. Yeah, there might be some sexual intimacy. That's super awful. Yeah, I think, I don't mean to project.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:34] Yeah, no, yeah. And most of the time, I would say it's mostly makeouts that happen. Honestly, that's most of the time what happens.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Meaning it doesn't go too far.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:42] Yeah, yeah. But anyway, so, yeah, but I, I did go on dates with a couple people and yeah, the topic does come come up and I did really want someone who believed in the church. Like if I was going to, if I was going to date someone, I probably wanted someone who believed. I mean, I knew I was going to go to the telescope kingdom, but I still believed it.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] There's this perception among straight people, especially secular or ex religious, it's like, dude, if you're gay, all your religious beliefs should evaporate. They act as though just being gay means being gay. And Mormon means you lose the Mormon because what gay person, given the homophobia and the treatment of LGBT people in the church, that would be like evidence that the church was false. Therefore you would just immediately all your gay, all your Mormon beliefs would just evaporate because obviously the church is a fraud if they're so awful to gay people. But that's so that's not. Tell, Tell us why that might not be the case.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:54] Well, I, Yeah, I think there are two separate things being. A lot of it has to do with how the church grooms you into thinking that this is a weakness, this is not who you are and you are just giving up. And I mean for me I just felt the weakness is too strong. I just can't, I just can't make it work, I guess. I don't know, you know, it's just. So I still was able to keep my beliefs believing at the same time I was broken at the same time I'm going to the celestial kingdom, but at the same time, well, I think this is the best path for me to be happy, at least on this life.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] And I, I sometimes say just being gay doesn't mean if you're raised in a high demand religion that your beliefs evaporate. Evaporate beliefs are super resilient, especially in the context of a high demand religion. So yeah, it's just, it's, it's fallacious thinking that oh, you're gay, so just leave the church and leave it behind, go to some other faith. It's just like with the straight person,

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:03] especially when you grew up super orthodox. Right. And when you were raised in the church since child and you went on a mission and had all those experiences. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] You've been conditioned just like everybody else.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:14] Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was, I was liking it. I think I, I liked it. It was hard not being able to be out, but it was as good as I had ever experienced. Some like being myself. Right. Because at home I had always pretend. I had to pretend anyway. And here it was kind of the same, but at the same time going to classes and studying what I liked, what I wanted to study.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] What are the pluses and minuses of being in the United States? As somebody raised in Mexico, was it much different? Was it pretty much the same? Was it like way cooler, food wise, culture wise? Just the environment.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:53] Yeah, it's just a lot, it's a lot different. Like here in the US I was able to go to school and pay for my own bills. Like my parents never or never really paid for much of my stuff. If anything, maybe my health insurance in one or two semesters, they, they helped.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] But pesos don't go a long way

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:17] in the U.S. right.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] Because of the conversion rates.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:19] Yeah. So the fact that I was able to work and pay for my own bills, that's something that wouldn't be a thing in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] Even in Mexico with pesos.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:28] Yeah, even in Mexico with pesos. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:31] So none of my friends back home could have a job that could support them, them. So they would have to still live with their parents like you said. Yeah, yeah. And have everything paid for. So.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:44] Yeah, that's a big thing here. Like here you can work at McDonald's and if you live by yourself and rent a room and you can still travel and do stuff in, in Mexico, you, you, you with the minimum wage, do you do nothing? You barely survived, you know.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] What about like standard of living? Is it different? Similar?

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:11] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Well, sometimes, sometimes there's this impression of like, oh, it's developing world. It's, it's dirty or unclean or impoverished or like not as nice or dirt

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:23] floors or, you know, I didn't see much difference. Like I said, like, you've heard my story. I grew up in a pretty well off family and most of my friends are pretty well off as well.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] So it wasn't it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:41] Yeah, I mean the university was huge for me. Like I'd never seen any university that big and buildings were huge and pretty super nice. Even the best Beta universities there don't look like that. But yeah, it was never like, oh, My gosh, this is so, so much better. Okay, but I mean, that's pretty cool that with a minimum wage you can have fun, you know, like, and live.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] All right, what about missing the food, the culture, the music, your friends, and also being a brown, a person of color in a place that's super white.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] Just the cultural differences and you being transported to a place totally outside of your host culture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:29] I did miss my. My home in some ways, but I love American culture. I don't know culture, but I just. I just like America and just as much as I love Mexico, so I did miss it, but I still enjoyed. Like, I wouldn't be like, oh, I want to go back, you know, especially because I knew that my career, if I studied there, I would be making nothing. Right. If at least at a university in. In the US If I had to go back, and maybe I would be easier to get a job at a bigger company in Mexico City or something that could at least make me a lot more money. Right. Because of the career I chose.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:10] So that was big for me. But no, I never was like, oh, maybe now that I think about it, when I first arrived and I started seeing all the expenses, how much I had to pay for health insurance, how much food cost and how much rent was, I was very overwhelmed. And I called my mom. I think I said, I think I'll have to go back. There's. There's no way I'll be able to afford this. But I think she talked to me and I ended up deciding to stay. And. Yeah, it worked. At the end. It worked.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] That's good.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:48] Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. So at the end. At the beginning, it was pretty. It was hard. I was make making minimum wage and had to be careful on, like, what I ate and where I spent my money. But as I got better jobs and later on, it just started changing a little bit. I never had a car. I would not be able to afford a car, for example, but I live very closely. Like, all the houses are. Or the student housings are around the university, so you just walk. It's a walking distance from school, so that was not really a problem. And I would always have a roommate that had a car, so they would drive me grocery shopping and stuff. So that's nice.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] What about, like, the apostles coming to give devotionals and the religious education at BYU and going to the wards and how is it religiously for you as a BYU student?

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:48] I honestly felt it boring.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] What?

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:51] I just felt like it was boring.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] What do you mean?

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:53] I Didn't I still believed in the church, but there's just this thing about the church in Mexico that makes you feel something. When you go to a testimony meeting in Mexico, there's just this thing. I don't know if it's how people talk or if it's just because it's my native language, but just here it's very monotone and just like boring. Testimony meetings are like stale. But. But I remember when I would go on vacations home, I would always feel like this excitement on the church again that I didn't feel at byu. Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Interesting.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:29] Yeah. So even my religious classes, I would not really pay attention. I would just do enough to get by and get the grade. I didn't really go to devotionals, just not a lot into it, but I still believed.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:45] Yeah. Anyway, so. Okay, so let's go to where I met Zach.

Falling in Love and Getting Engaged

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Yeah. So this is. This is the big deal. This is. This is going to ask. Answer the question. How do two BYU male students get married while they're BYU students? So this is. This will be a short for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:11] Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I was on Tinder. It was January.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] That's how it starts.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:20] And I matched with this guy called. His name was Zach.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] What year?

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:25] 2018. January 2018.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Three years ago.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:29] Yeah. I was in exactly in the middle of my school. Right. I had been. I had done two years. I had two years left. And I match with him. We started talking, just really awkward conversation and be like, okay, do you want to go? I think I asked him out or something and he said yes. And I said, okay, can you pick me up? Because I don't have a car. It's like he. Yeah. Anyway, he ends up picking me up and we go to. We decided to go out to the movies and maybe do dinner before. And we. We just got along really well. Really. We. I was super attracted to him and the first date and went to the movie theater and then we just went home and he dropped me off home and we just kept talking after. After that and kept going. We saw each other every day.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Zachary missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] He's from Idaho, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:32] Idaho Falls. Yeah, Idaho Falls. Return missionary from Germany. One of the first things he told me was that he had just recently gone through a discipline disciplinary experience. So he had been. He had a disciplinary council with the bishop because of having. Of dating a guy. And he had gone through the process. I don't remember if it was six months or something like that where he couldn't take the sacrament.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] Disfellowship yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:57] And he had, I don't think he was. Disfellowship. What's the one? Probation. And then he, he had just gained back his rights or.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] And then you were, you were his backsliding.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:09] Yeah. Well, I remember feeling super bad. I told him like, am I just corrupting you? This is, this is bad.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] What do you say?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:15] And he's like, no, I like, I like.

John Dehlin [00:55:18] Good.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:19] Yeah, it feels good. And he later told me that the reason why he moved to BYU Idaho because he was commuting before he was going to BYU Idaho, but he was living with his parents. But he finally decided to move to BYU Idaho. Pretty much the same reason to get away from his parents.

Carah Burrell [00:55:35] Who knew BYU Idaho was a gay mecca? Wow.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] Who knew? It's if you're gay, go to one of the byu, find your love, find your soulmate.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:45] It doesn't work out well for everyone. I do know a lot of couples though at BYU Idaho right now or. And after that met at BYU Idaho anyway. Gay couples. And also one of the first things that we talked about was, okay, what are your stances on the church? And we both agreed, okay, we believe that the Book of Mormon is true and we're probably going to go to the celestial kingdom. Maybe the church has it wrong. At that point I was like, maybe the church has a wrong on the gay issues. Gay issue, but who knows? And, but we still believe. And that was

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:24] important for him because the first boyfriend he had had for the one that he went through probation for was he was ex Mormon and he had hated the experience of dating an ex Mormon and constantly attacking the church, but he still kind of believed and living with very orthodox Idaho false parents anyway.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] So that, that is really fascinating, this idea of like a gay faithful Mormon who doesn't want to be around ex Mormons because, oh, they're scary. But we can't be fully orthodox and temple recommend worthy. So we got to find this middle ground of we could date each other, but let's be super positive and faithful about the church. That's a really interesting kind of liminal state, you know what I mean? Yeah, he lived it. So I'm just like, yeah, conditioning man.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:21] Also, I forgot to, to say this, but when I arrived to BYU Idaho, my parents were grilling me and asking me, are you going on dates with girls? And what's going on with that? That was your whole point of going there. How is that going? Oh, man. And at some point I just got tired of it and I told them like, you know what, like this Same sex attraction. It didn't go away. And I'm not gonna date girls.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] Oh, my gosh. That's a big deal.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:44] Yeah. So stop just asking me because I'm not gonna date girls.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Were you mugged?

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:49] That's why I told them. Yeah. I think they were upset.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] How did they respond?

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:53] They were sad. They were upset. And at some point, one of the conversations I had with my mom was I told her, hypothetically, what would you do if for some reason, I stopped believing in the church? And by this point, I still believe? So I don't know how. Where did this come from, but at one point, I stopped believing in the church, just like dad left Catholicism. Let's imagine that I find out that Mormonism isn't true, I leave and then marry someone of my same sex. What would you do? And my mom responded, well, if. If you left the church, that would mean that you wouldn't want to be my son in the afterlife. So I wouldn't want to want you to be my son during this life. So I. I would have no interested of you being my son in this life.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Oh,

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:01] yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] What was that like?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:04] That's horrible. I. I felt so bad, and I really got upset at her. And we stopped talking for like three months. Three or four months, we didn't talk at all. I didn't talk to my parents, but. So when I started dating saga, I already knew what would be coming from. From my parents, you know, and at some point when I would be out, finally, I knew my parents would not be okay with it at all. After a few months of stopping, stopped talking to my mom. We just started talking again, little by little. And. Yeah, but still, we wouldn't talk about the gay subject, and we wouldn't talk about dating girls. So that was the. We would still talk, but not about those things. So Zach and I had a really good dating experience.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] We.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:15] Zach had. I don't know if he will mind me saying this, but he had a lot of insecurities that came from his childhood growing up gay and maybe not being accepted by a lot of people, but he's. He. He never. He was not out to most of his family.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Not have had your high school experience.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:35] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] In Idaho Falls.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:36] Right, right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:00:38] As a Mormon kid in Idaho.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:40] And rural Idaho. So he must have had a very hard upbringing, I'm guessing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:45] Yeah. Really hard. Yeah, pretty hard. And for him, he didn't really accept he was gay until even after his mission. But still, the. The thought in the back of his mind, he had a Hard mission too. Depression during his mission. He saw a therapist during his mission.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:04] But I mean, to me he just, he. He was just like an. I don't know, a lot of those issues didn't exist anymore. But there was this. Probably the hardest part of dating him or dating was that maybe he still had some insecurities, right. Of not being accepted by his parents and, and stuff like that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:28] But overall our experience was. Was good to. To a point because we had to hide it. We couldn't be out and hold hands in the street or do anything outside. We would be. We try to be super careful and even, even coming. Sometimes we took trips to Salt Lake. Even coming here, we would be careful of not holding hands in public because what if we. If I had been a ta So I had a lot of students who knew me and what if in one of these trips to Salt Lake we would find like a student who knew me from being their TA and sees me holding my boyfriend's hand?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:17] So we would be really careful even when we were out of Rexburg. And that was hard. The fact that we had to keep the secret from our parents for him was really, really hard because he had a really close relationship with his parents and his extended family.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:38] And after six months of dating, I was going to come to Mexico. I was going to. Going to go to Mexico for. To visit my family just like normally for a summer. And I told him, hey, do you want to come? And he said, yes, I'll go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:54] And he was still a little nervous. I mean, I just met this guy six months ago and we're already going to meet his parents in Mexico. We invited another friend to just to make sure that my parents wouldn't like, be super suspicious.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:13] Yeah. Because I knew my parents would be. Would be the first thing they would. They. They thought, right? Yeah. So we ended up going to Mexico and in. While we were there, we. The first days we stayed at Playa La Carmen at a Airbnb.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:35] And then the last days we. We went back to Merida and stayed at my parents for a few days, for a few more days. And then we came back while we were in Cancun, Playa Carmen, he proposed. Oh yeah. We had been talking about marriage. You know, it's. It was a topic that we would talk about and planning which temple you're

Carah Burrell [01:03:58] going to get married in or not. Wait. Oh, sorry, I forgot Trisha's allowed up.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:06] Yeah, it was really cute. We were at this beach and we were with my, my. Our friend who had come with us and Another friend from Merida who had been with us in Cancun, and he had told my friends that he. He was gonna propose.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:25] So we waited on the beach until sunset. And I really wanted to go home because we had to take this boat or ferry because we were in an island to go back to mainland. So I really wanted to go because I didn't want. Because I had still to drive to the Airbnb. And he was like, no, let's wait. Let's wait for sunset because I want to take pictures. And I was like, no, I want to go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:47] He kept pushing, and I was like, okay, fine, let's wait. So. So we waited sunset. And then we were walking. We were walking to go take the boat, the ferry back to mainland. And he stopped and said, okay, let's take a picture here. And we were standing right next to each other, and my friend was recording, and he just got on one knee and asked me if I want to be his husband.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] You still have a video of that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:16] Yeah, should be there somewhere. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Splice that in. You should splice that in.

Carah Burrell [01:05:20] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:21] Yeah. That was really cute. And I said yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] You said yes?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] And take the Mormon out of the boy. Out of the Mormon, but not the Mormon out of the boy.

Carah Burrell [01:05:31] Have you not been paying attention the last six hours? He's gay, John, and Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] I'm talking about the Mormon part, not the gay part. Like a quick courtship. That's a pretty quick courtship.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:41] Yeah. Super quick. Six months.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:43] And.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] But very Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:45] The cute thing about the whole experience was that he had a ring that his grandpa had given him, and he wanted that one to be the ring that he would propose with, but he couldn't find. We were gonna go on the trip, and he had thought about proposing there, but he couldn't find it. He couldn't find the ring. He didn't tell me any of this until later. And then once we were in Cancun, he. He was just taking these things out of the bag and he found the ring in that backpack. So that's when he decided, okay, this is it. I gotta propose. The ring is here.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] And I have to ask, like, I can't imagine that many times in the history of the world, you know, two believing BYU students, that it occurred to them that they should propose and get married as believing BYU students? Like, yeah, I can see hookups happening, or gay men or women experimenting at byu, but, like, where in the world would one or two believing BYU students come up with the idea that they're gonna get same sex married In Rexburg?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Of all places. Like, what made you even think that was a possibility?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:11] I think the idea by that point was maybe we'll. We're getting married after I graduate, after I graduated. I think that was the, that was the initial idea. I can't remember.

John Dehlin [01:07:21] And this is 2018.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:23] 2018, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] That's three years after same sex marriage was legalized across the country. Yeah. I mean, that's a big difference. Right? This is, this is relatively recent. This is three years after it's legalized nationwide. I mean, I'm sure you're not the only ones, but I'm, you know, but I'm. I'm guessing you won't be the last because it's, it's becoming very, very common.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] But still, you probably knew it had never been done before. Probably, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:52] Probably. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] You were doing something different.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:57] Super different.

Carah Burrell [01:07:57] Were you living together as roommates at this point?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:59] At that point? No.

John Dehlin [01:08:01] I want to hear that story. Well, when you're ready.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:04] Yeah, yeah. So he.

John Dehlin [01:08:06] So you get engaged.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:08] Yeah. Something that's hard is like I. After he proposed, then the next, after a couple days, we went back to my house and stayed there.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] With your parents?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:19] Yeah. And I couldn't tell them I was, I was engaged. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] What was hard about that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:32] Well, I don't think at the time it's super hard, but just right now, thinking about it, it's like this moments that are just normal and of anyone's experience in their life, like any Mormon heterosexual person, like they're happy when they're engaged and they post their pictures and they tell everyone and their parents and the families are happy for them. And here seeing my parents who live in another country and I have my fiance right there with me and I can't tell them that we're engaged. And a lot of it had had to do with the fear of how they would react. I mean, what my mom had said at some point. And also the fear that my parents could potentially tell on me and, and get me out of byu, Idaho. Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] Things like that do happen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:36] Yeah. Oh, I think it would have happened if I had told them at that point.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Would have called me.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:41] Yeah. At that point.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:46] And the same for his parents. The same thing you're going to tell him. And so we came back and we moved into an apartment and we had separate rooms. We each had a room and we were leaving with. With four other guys at the same time.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Okay, well, I want to hear that conversation. Like, wait, what if we move in together? You know, you're engaged.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:14] I think we had already been planning on moving to the same apartment.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] How'd that conversation go?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:20] Just.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] Let's move in together.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:21] Yeah. Just like. I mean, we're dating. Let's just move in together.

Carah Burrell [01:10:24] Take that BYU housing. Trying to keep people apart.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] No, take that honor code.

Carah Burrell [01:10:30] Yeah. Because that's a huge deal at BYU. Like nobody of a different sex over past 10pm or whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:36] Like.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Yeah, not if you're gay. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:10:40] Keep it on the DL.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:41] So we moved into. I mean, again, it was separate rooms, but. But we were in the same apartment and it's good. It's great. At some point and then.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] But you had to be discreet.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:57] Super careful. Because we have other. Four other roommates and they weren't.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] They didn't know what it was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:02] No, they didn't know we're engaged, dude.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] And you're keeping it from your roommates. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:13] Yeah. And by that point I had gotten a really good job with. So the student visa allows you to get a job related to your field of study. Kind of like an internship outside. Outside of school. You have to prove that is related to your. To your career. And you had had to be taken certain classes to be able to be approved for this work permit. So I was able to find this job. Well, not find this job. Like I was recruited because of being the TA for that teacher. Recruited by really big, big, big, big company in Idaho Falls to be on their photography department.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] I just have to say, can any of you imagine moving to a foreign country where. Where the country you move to is your second language and going to university and excelling? Like, I can't. I could. I. Yeah. I did two years of Spanish on my mission. I couldn't have gone to a Spanish speaking university and learned, let alone excelled. And that's just one of many test testimonies of the fact that Gerardo is brilliant. So I just had to say that

Carah Burrell [01:12:30] immigrants, they get the job done.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:32] There were so many things right. On our. On our relationship in our. In our time as in being dating sag that just fit together so many times that we didn't get caught that we were probably should have been caught or not like having sex or anything, but just like, I don't know, sometimes we forgot to be careful outside in the. In the car. In the car when we were driving. And then if there was this big truck. Right. That they could like look over and see that we were holding hands in the car. Just stuff like that. Just a lot of things just fit and Happen. I don't know. We were. We thought we were being blessed by God or something. I don't know. For your wickedness, this was meant to be.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:13:21] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:24] And so then we lived there for a few months in the semester, and then weeks before we were about to move or bishop.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] And you never violated the honor code.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] Well, maybe you did

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:38] weeks before we moved in to that apartment complex. Because when each apartment complex and bisections, we have different bishops. Right? So I think it was a couple weeks before we moved into the new apartment. We. We. We were called by our bishop that the bishop wanted to see us together.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:01] No. Well, he texted. The secretary texted me and texted him. And at the beginning I was like, there's no way this is going to be about us being gay. Like, why? Like, we. Who could have seen anything? Nothing happened. Like, it's not like we're. I don't know, you know, like we're not being stupid and we're not doing super bad stuff. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:31] So we were called in and I was. It was going to be sacked first, but for some reason I said maybe I should go first. So I asked the bishop if I could go first. I went first. And Sack's interview was going to be after me, but like there was going to be a 30 minute, 20 minute in between that. So he was not at the chapel. So I went in and the bishop asked me, so how is your.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:01] Your church attendance? And I'm like, it's good. We. We were really careful of going every Sunday to make sure not to like, bring any red flags. Right.

Family Reactions and Honor Code Pressures

Carah Burrell [01:15:12] Or rainbow flags.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:13] Right. So I told him it's good. And it's like. And he's like, here, I have this report from the elders quorum pricing. It says like, you haven't been attending your elders quorum meetings. And I was like, no, I'm actually, I can call him and I can tell him that we. We've been there. I know we've been there, or I've been there.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:37] So, okay. So then the bishop changes the subject and says, so I've had this report. And he's like. He's like. And please forgive me, is this is completely, like, wrong. And. But I just have to ask you because it came to me and I have to ask. So. So I'm really sorry that I have to ask this, but I. I had this report of a girl from another stake here at byu, Idaho, talk to her stake president, and the stake president called our stake president and the State person called me that. You and Sa and your roommate Zach are in a relationship.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Now, that's the Rexburg I'm familiar with. That's the BYU experience.

Carah Burrell [01:16:36] Yeah. Freaking narc, man.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:38] Till this day, I don't know. Till this day, we can't figure out who was told on us because we were really careful. Like, seriously.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:49] Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] So what'd you say again?

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:56] I have this brain that thinks really fast on, like, the possible outcomes. So I was really fast able to think my response, and I said, no, Bishop, I'm really good friends with Zach, and Zach is, like. He is a little bit feminine. So I.

John Dehlin [01:17:15] You threw Zach

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:18] because. So here's why. I love sports. I'll tell you what went through my mind on why I did that. I said, zach, it is a little bit. He's a little bit feminine. And I could see why someone would think that.

Carah Burrell [01:17:34] All the while, Zach's in a different interview saying the same things about you. No, no. Prisoner against prisoner. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:17:41] Prisoner's dilemma.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:42] Well, Zach was going to go after me, so I knew I could tell Zach what I told the Bish.

John Dehlin [01:17:46] This is great.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:51] I said, but, yeah, Bishop, I'm really worried. Like, who could have said this? I don't. And I just can't think of anything else. And I said, and, Bishop, I'm really worried because we're about to move into a new apartment together, and what are people gonna say? Should I cancel my contract? Bishop, what do you recommend? So the Bishop was like, oh, no, no, no, no. I don't think you have to cancel your contract. I think you'll be fine. There's always this jealous young sisters who go and report men because of, like, this is a very common thing for fake reports. So I don't think you have to worry about it that much.

John Dehlin [01:18:45] Why are you covering your face?

Carah Burrell [01:18:47] I'm, like, crying. I'm laughing so hard. Like, Bishop came around for you. He was like, you know what? There are some dumb bitches around here. I got called gay when I was at byu, Idaho. Don't worry about it. I'm sorry to bring you in here. Be on your way, brother. Like, he just. He came around. He was on the level by the end. He didn't want you to waste that money with your contract.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] You want him over Gerardo. That's so awesome. He's not fighting for you, throwing the women under the bus. So you throw Zach under the bus. So he throws BYU coeds under the bus.

Carah Burrell [01:19:21] There's just these chatty broads around town. I love it. He was on the level at the end. Gosh.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:28] And then I tell him, like, bishop, I know. And I'm gonna be. I'm gonna make sure to talk to the other square room president and clarify this thing, because I always come on Sundays. I love coming to Elder Scorum. And, yeah, I'll try to be more careful on this.

Carah Burrell [01:19:46] Do I need to mute your mic? John, you need to get out of control. I'm trying to move on with the story, but I just can't get over this. Stories, like, so much trauma around the game. Mormon experience. Finally, we get, like, a funny story where, like, you're a smart man, Hardo. All of this lying to bishops has come in handy.

John Dehlin [01:20:05] Mexican mob, Mormon, gay Mormon, Mexican mobster.

Carah Burrell [01:20:08] Literally.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] Godfather is Gerardo, stone cold sober able.

Carah Burrell [01:20:13] Just lie through any interview.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:16] Because I was thinking, like, what proof do they have? Like, do they have a picture? There's no way they have a picture of video. And in the back of my mind, I was like, to make our story more credible, one of us has to say we're gay. Otherwise, if we both say we're straight, it's not gonna be as believable if at least one of us say we're gay. And I was also thinking, if this bishop talks to the next bishop about this, we may get in trouble later. So I gotta tell this bishop that I'm moving words and that I'm worried about moving in with him and ask him if I should cancel my contract to make sure he tells me, no, you don't have to cancel my contract. And then later down the road, I can say, well, the bishop told me not to cancel my contract.

John Dehlin [01:21:09] Wow, you're a chess player.

Carah Burrell [01:21:11] Literally. This is prisoner's dilemma. Like thinking at lightning speed here.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] I'm impressed.

Carah Burrell [01:21:17] I am so impressed.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] I'm even more impressed. And you're freaking lying your socks off your bishop. But you've got plenty of practice with that by.

Carah Burrell [01:21:25] By going to have to tell my bishop I think my fiance is gay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:34] So then I get out and I call Zach on the phone, like, super fast. And I'm like, okay, Zach, here's what happened. The bishop told me this, and I told him you are feminine. So you will have to go in and tell him that you're gay. You'll have to tell him.

Carah Burrell [01:22:04] I love how this happens in, like, the fastest phone call of all time. You know that secret that we've been hiding forever. Really quick, I gotta tell you what just happened. Run in there. Go admit that you're gay. The secret that you've been repressing forever. Trust me, I don't have time to explain.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] Zach, you outed Zack.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:22] Well, the thing is. So here's the other thing that I thought. Zack is already out with his bishop in Idaho Falls. So if those bishops ever talk, like, Zach can just. Can't say I'm straight because he has been in probation for being gay. So I told him, you gotta tell the bishop that you're gay and just cry or give an act and say, I really wanna change. And I've been through probation and sat. Gerardo and I were just really good friends. And that's it.

Carah Burrell [01:22:52] Please let me live with my friend Gerardo, not fiance. Just let me live with my friend Gerardo.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] What did Zach say?

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:00] Yeah, Zach said, okay, that. That sounds like a good plan. So he went in and the bishop asked me. Asked him pretty much the same thing. And I think he said he cried a little and told him, yeah, Bishop, I'm. I'm gay. And I've struggled with the same sex. Unwanted. Unwanted sex, same sex attraction. And. But I'm working through it.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Her art is. Her art is really helping.

Carah Burrell [01:23:34] That's when those gay cuddling parties came in. He's like, I learned this technique called a gay cuddling party. I'm going to try it out with my roommate. Maybe I will. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Thank you for letting me be with Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:48] I don't think the bishop really understood that we were going to live together alone, by ourselves in the next. Um, anyway.

Carah Burrell [01:24:00] But don't ask. Don't tell the bishop.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:03] The bishop said, well, I know this really good therapist who helps people with unwanted same sex attraction. And Because I know you can marry a woman. And. And. And Zach was like, okay. Yeah, it's fine. Okay, good. Yeah, we'll talk about it. That was it.

John Dehlin [01:24:26] Nice.

Carah Burrell [01:24:27] Nice. Play it cool.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:28] Play it. Here's where the hard part played out. Is that Zach. I don't know. I can't remember exactly why, but he decided to tell his mom what had happened. That the bishop had called him in and asked him if he was gay and if he was dating me. And his mom was outraged. She was like, give me your bishop's phone. This is outrageous. How could he ask something like that?

John Dehlin [01:24:58] Why?

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:00] His mom had asked him, I think, before if we were dating, and he had said no. And his mom thought that I was straight and they knew me because I. I think I had gone through his house. He lived in Idaho Falls for a couple times. For dinner on Sundays, so. And also he had been the one not going to all the meetings because sometimes there had been holidays where he had gone with his family to island park and stuff like that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:37] Yeah. So the bishop really, really made him feel bad for that and told him, like, now if you're in island park, you have to drive to Rexburg and come to your. To your meetings. So he told her that to his mom got really upset at that. I was like, this is outrageous.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:52] They're pretty orthodox, but still thought, it's pretty. And Zach didn't end up giving her the bishop's phone number, but his mom was really mad. But can you imagine how that played out later when she found out that we were actually dating?

John Dehlin [01:26:07] They lied.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:09] You had lied to her. That's not a good way to start a marriage, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:13] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] Well, I was just thinking it. We're laughing, and I'm sorry. That's the most I've ever laughed on a Mormon Stories podcast episode. But it's just like. I mean, it's. There's some cosmic justice in you guys being able to do. I love this story. It's one of my favorite stories in the history of Mormon stories because it's just cosmic justice that you guys were, you know, just able to have this great relationship in a BYU context when everything about BYU is set up to stomp out anything like what you guys were able. And you were able to do it and enjoy it and have a good time.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] I just. I just love it. Should have be its own movie at some point, but we shouldn't be laughing. But it's just. I love it. I love the story. Yeah, but. But, you know, we're laughing. There's this idea of privilege that I learned about getting my PhD, but few of us know what it's like to have to always walk around in fear of being found out. Having to hide everything about you and then having to hide things that are most sacred and special and beautiful. All that you're having to hide all the time, always being worried you'll find out. And it's not just being worried you'll find out.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] You know, you could have years of your education, you know, be thrown away in an instant because so much. So much of BYU course credit doesn't transfer to other universities. BYU is going to make it hard for you to transfer. All that money wasted, all that time wasted, really serious stakes.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] And. And. And so that's all in jeopardy if all this gets found out. And so it's. It's actually not Funny. It's kind of dark humor.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] Because what you guys were living under is really unjust and unhealthy and inhumane. It's inhumane.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:01] I think.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:02] I didn't live it, but it was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:04] It was really hard for us right after that experience because we were like, who could have. Who could it have been? Who told on us?

John Dehlin [01:28:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:13] And what if it happened? Double down on being careful. Right. And being fearful of anyone finding out. And now we're living together. That's even worse.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] And just like with your engagement with your parents, instead of it being this beautiful thing that you're able to share with them and they can celebrate with you, you guys finding each other and loving each other and moving in and having this early beautiful courtship, it's tainted. It has to be tainted on some level by the fact that, number one, you have to be secret and private about it. And then, number two, there's so much at risk if somebody finds out again. That's just awful.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:50] You know, it's not funny at that point. I think we. I think it was then when we got really nervous, especially me, and we started looking into maybe transferring to another university, to uvu. The main issue was that as an international student. When you're an international student, you have. Each university makes an estimate of how much a whole year of school tuition, food, housing, transportation, books, everything is going to cost. And they make up this number. And I think for UVU, it was $27,000. So to be able to transfer as an international student from byu, Idaho to uvu, you have to prove that you have in the bank $27,000.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:38] And that was unimaginable, like, at that. Yeah, at that time, at that point. So we. We were under a lot of stress for a long time about. Not like we were trapped, like, because I was already. I only had one year left, and he was still going to. He. The plan at the end was that he was going to finish his associates in general studies. And then around the same time, I was going to graduate with my bachelor's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:14] But, yeah, that was the main issue. And not only you have to prove that you have that money in the bank, you have to deposit full tuition for a whole year, just in one sitting. And then. I don't know. I can't remember how it's at uvu, but I. By you provo. You can't use that deposit until your last year of school.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] Mm. They don't wanna lose the money. We've got about an hour left and there's two Things I really wanna hear about at least one is your marriage, which is probably bittersweet.

Faith Crisis and Losing Belief in Church Truth Claims

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:43] It's pretty, pretty soon.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] And then I wanna hear about. At some point you're reaching out to me and telling me about you and Zach. And I don't know if that was before or after your marriage, but I wanna hear about your faith crisis. And you're one of the most well read people I know for your age about Mormon church truth claims. I don't want to give that short shrift. So anyway.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:05] Okay, we'll go. Yeah, yeah, we'll go fast here. So. So we moved in and then January, January came. January, January is my birthday. So we went to Vegas to celebrate my birthday. And on our way back we were driving is a nine hour drive back to Rexburg and I was. He was driving. I was on my phone and I saw this article of the endowment ceremony changing. It's like, what's that about? Big changes on the temple ceremony, like

John Dehlin [01:31:39] with the washings and anointings or.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:41] It was, it was a change about the female. The female not having to hearken onto their husbands and not putting their veils on their face anymore. Just like, what is this about? So then I just started researching about it just right there on the. On our trip back. And I was like, I wonder, okay, this has changed. I kind of knew already that endowment ceremonies had changed, but I don't know, it was just different this time, knowing that in my lifetime a big change had happened.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:20] So then I was like, okay, I wonder what the homosexual doctrine in the church has changed the doctrine about homosexuality. So I just started looking and found out about electroshock therapy and what leaders were teaching in the past about homosexuality and how it contrasted completely. Mormon and gay website had been out already.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:49] So I kind of noticed that there was a shift away from what I knew Evergreen was. I kind of tried to show that to my parents. Like, look, the church is changing. At some point I tried that. My parents kind of like still didn't really want to listen. They were rooted on this Evergreen ideas. But just seeing how much the church had changed its teachings on homosexuality was pretty impactful. And then I just started playing. I found Mormon stories and on. On.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Did you. Had you ever heard of Mormon stories being bad or dangerous?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:22] No. No.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] You didn't have the poison poisoning of the well?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:26] No, I think what happened was, I mean this is on our drive back this nine hours, right. And I remembered watching on my mission this video of, of a mission former mission president talking about his son being in a Same sex marriage. So I looked for it and I found it and just started playing it and I just started playing Mormon stories after Mormon stories after Mormon stories. And it was kind of like a faith crisis. A nine hour trip with faith crisis included.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] Do you remember some of the episodes you were listening to?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:01] I can't remember. I remember the Bradshaw one for sure. And maybe a couple about history.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:10] Maybe Michael Quinn, I think. And so we're both like, okay, what the. The church may not be true after all. And we went back and I just. What? I was super upset that the fact that there was things about church history and doctrine that had changed that I had no idea about. So I would go to the library, BYU Idaho library and find Dan Bogle's books and what's his name?

John Dehlin [01:34:52] Grant Palmer.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:53] Grant Palmer's books and Sandra Tanner's books. And like they were there on the BYU Idaho library.

Carah Burrell [01:35:00] Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:01] And good for them. Yeah. It was just take, take. Oh, the polygamy one.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] Todd Compton and Sacred Loneliness.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:09] Yeah. Would check them out and take them home and just read them. I didn't read them the whole thing, but I would like skim through them and learn new things and listen to Mormon stories during class. Like sometimes during class, sometimes in between classes. At night I was just listening, binge watching Mormon stories episodes. And that was the time when you were coming up with Dan Vogel's episodes

John Dehlin [01:35:35] and all this John Hamer stuff.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] A lot of Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:39] A lot of Book of Mormon stuff. Yeah. So just learning. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] And David Bacavoy was around that time.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:47] Yeah. So David Bacavoy hadn't happened yet because I remember I bought a book, the book by Graham Palmer, Restoring Christ. Christ. Restoring Christ, Yeah. Leaving Mormon Jesus for the Jesus of the Gospels. Because I thought, well, maybe Jesus Jesus still still exists and is true or whatever.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:10] But yeah, big things for me was polygamy. Like I. I don't know why. Like, because we grew up knowing about doctrine 132. Why don't we make the connection about that and the fact that Joseph Smith lived polygamy. I don't know if it's because we never taught that or just the extent to what Joseph Smith went to marry other women and women who were already married and teenage girls and all this stuff that I had never heard about Book of Abraham, revisiting Book of Abraham that I had put on the shelf and a lot of it had. Had what was me trying to unravel or deconstruct my testimony, which was built by.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:01] It was built by Joseph feeling Smith teachings. Right. About the witnesses, how credible they were. And so I had to go, what about the witnesses? And then go and research about the witnesses. And oh, there's problems there too.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:16] And what about the priesthood restoration? Oh, there's problems there too. Just every single truth claim has issues. Every big Mormon truth claim has Book

John Dehlin [01:37:29] of Mormon, Book of Abraham witnesses, Joseph's Kinderhook plates.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:33] And I didn't know what the CS letter was at that point, but I already knew all the issues just by researching and watching Mormon stories. And Zach went through this really hard time of getting panic attacks sometimes while we were going deconstructing our faith. Part of it maybe, I think had to do with the fact that it was hard for him to lose. To lose his faith in the church and then be like, so then why? What happens after this life? We don't know. Is there a God? What's gonna happen when I have a problem? Who am I gonna pray to? And so it was really, really hard for him. He had at least two panic attacks and he.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] Or you feel like you're gonna die. I mean, those aren't small things.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:19] Yeah, it was bad. Yeah. And he asked his. He didn't tell his parents that he was going through a faith crisis, but he told them that he wanted to go therapy. And his mom told him, it has to be family services if you want us to pay for it or you have to go to LDS family services. So he said, yeah, that's fine, I'll do that. And he ended up having a therapist, I think, in Rexburg who was. Who he was able to come out and tell. Tell her that we were dating, going through a faith crisis, and that we were both a BYU Idaho, and the therapist was fine with it.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Kept his confidence. Yep, that's an ethical therapist.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. She was like, it's okay to be gay. He had a good experience with LDS family service, which I know that's not always the case, but yeah, we're going through this faith crisis. And then I decide I have to tell my parents because I'm pretty mad at my parents at that point. It's like I've gone through conversion therapy. I've been grilled about being gay, about having to follow the covenant path, and he is. Here is the prophet of the Restoration. The prophet of the Restoration marrying other men's wives.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:33] But then the church just fighting same sex marriage and saying, that's evil from the devil. How come Joseph Smith gets a pass? But then homosexuality is this horrible, ugly, terrible Thing. So I talked to my parent. I talked to my dad first, and I told him the whole thing. I told him I found this and this and this. And he heard me out for, like, 30 minutes, just ranting about all the issues I had found.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:04] And he just heard me, and he said, okay, you know, these new things. You're finding these new things. Where I'm gonna ask you is to stop researching. Just keep going to church, keep doing your. The stuff at byu, Idaho that you. And then graduate and then find out what you're gonna do next.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:26] I was. I got upset at him, that he was. I was expecting him to be like, okay, son, let's review the issues. I'll help you through it. I mean, when I. When they found out I was gay, they found Evergreen, they found conversion therapy. They were researching all this stuff. Why? When I tell him, hey, I have all these issues with the church, why are you not helping me? Go out, look for resources, so kind

John Dehlin [01:40:51] of do the research in the other direction. Yeah, they were only. Maybe it appeared like they were only willing to do research in the faithful direction.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:58] Right.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] But not if. So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:59] Well, I was not. I was not expecting him to, hey, dad, go find out that the church is not true. I was like, at least expecting him to go, like, let. I'll help you out. I'll find answers for you. Like, just like he had done when he found out I was gay.

John Dehlin [01:41:15] Yeah. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:16] But no, it was just crickets. They just talked that one time, and that's it. And he told me, don't tell your sister. Don't tell your mom about it. But the fact that we didn't talk about it, but I was still watching Mormon stories and all this stuff, I. So I. Two weeks passed, and I was like, I gotta tell my mom. So I called my mom and they told her, mom, I. I found all these things.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Why would you say don't tell your mother?

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:44] I think it's just, like, you're gonna contaminate just like other people with your. With your doubts. I don't know. I think your sister is about to go on your mission. My dad, I feel like he's always felt like he's a lot more faithful than my mom in some ways. Maybe he thought I'd be able to handle the questions or you ranting to me about these issues, but your mom may not be able to handle it as well. And I know that's what happened. Once I talked to my mom, we kind of fought on the phone about some of the issues about the hat and the stone.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:18] It's like you grew up in the church. You serve a mission. I served a mission. Had you ever heard about this hat and the stone? She's like, no, never heard about it. But maybe it's because it was too sacred. It's too sacred. So the church doesn't really want to talk about it because people are going to make fun of it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:37] But the church is giving us all this whole different story. Why lie? Why are they lying? This prophets in the past said like the Joseph healing Smith said Joseph Smith did not use the seer stone for translating the Book of Mormon. So they're lying. And I mean Joseph feelings Smith was a church historian. He had all the records he knew and he denied it.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] The first vision thing, I don't know if you knew about that at the time.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:12] Yeah. So the first vision. Yeah, the first vision is like all these first vision accounts, they. They contradict each other. There was. There was no. There was no. A religious revolt or what's revival. There was no revival in 1820. Like that's proven. There was no revival in 1820. The revival Joseph Meade was talking about happened a lot later in three years after first vision. Right.

John Dehlin [01:43:40] Was supposed to have happened.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:41] Right. Right around the time Alvin died. What we have in our scriptures, Joseph Smith history says that Alvin died. And then how does he say it? I think no, it doesn't talk. Joseph history does not talk about Alvin dying because it talks about his family converting to Presbyterianism and then he goes and prays. So that happened in 1820. But really his family didn't convert into the Presbyterianism until after Alvin died. And didn't. That didn't happen until 1823. That doesn't match.

John Dehlin [01:44:20] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:23] So.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] And no revival.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:25] Right? No, and no revival. No one talked about. Oh, and there's all these records of all these people talking. A big thing on my. I love teaching the restoration on my mission. It was my favorite thing to teach because I would teach about history and about the great apostasy and how the Catholic Church rised and was the church of the devil. And I love teaching to people the fact that Joseph Smith was the first man to say he had seen God and Jesus because after apostles died, no one claimed that everyone was saying that. That God and Jesus went silent. And the Bible is the whole thing, the only thing we had. But now I'm finding out there's all these people around Joseph mid area that were talking about visions and seeing God.

John Dehlin [01:45:09] Lots of people before Joseph Smith.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:11] Right, Right before Joseph Smith. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] Were claiming to have Talked to God or had visitations from God or Jesus and Jesus. So Joseph was just one of several dozen people and he came later who all claimed to have visitations from God.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:24] And the first vision was not a big deal in the beginning of the church, like when Joseph Smith was living, very few people knew about it. He was not really talking about it.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] Wasn't part of the missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:34] Yeah. Even after he died, we have records of. Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young, beyond saying that the first vision was Moroni appearing to God and that God and Jesus didn't come to earth to restore. Yeah. Wilford Woodruff, I think it is. Or bringing beyond saying God and Jesus did not come to restore the church. It was Moroni. So that proves that this whole first vision thing, they made up later. It was either made up later or they didn't they. Because they knew a lot of people were seeing God and Jesus. It was not a big thing. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] Made into a big thing.

Carah Burrell [01:46:13] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:14] Yeah. And. And it evolved. It's a story that evolved. It starts with just Jesus and then all of a sudden there's a pillar of light and. And God and Jesus and Satan as is there too.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] It's like a story that gets.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:25] Yeah, well. And now Fiona Givens says that Mother in Heaven was there, too. I don't know what they're going to say next. Who was also there.

Carah Burrell [01:46:34] That's interesting that you said that you liked teaching the restoration on your mission because didn't like missionary efforts start really kicking up when they started introducing. Because it wasn't until much, much later. Right. That they started telling the first vision story as missionaries. When they proselyted, that was like the most successful way to get new converts that you're able to tell this really cool story. And that hooked you in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:54] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:46:55] Other people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:55] And my patriarchal blessing specifically said that I would like to like that the restoration was going to be the main thing that I would preach to people or something like that.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:06] And that matched because I loved it. So I told all that to my mom and she. She took it really hard. She. We didn't talk for a while. And later my dad said that he. She had a really, really hard time after that. And I, not. I. I think it was not just, oh, my son has lost his faith. I think she was also in some way kind of being like shaken up that. Shaken up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:47:36] Things are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:37] There's a lot of shocking information that she never heard in her life. And she's been. She knows, like, I don't know, my parents have been orthodox Mormons. They're my entire life.

Carah Burrell [01:47:47] She must know that you were like a studious guy that you were. She must have respected you enough to even let you finish telling her what your research was.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:55] Yeah, yeah, she did push a lot back that my dad didn't. When I told him two weeks before, he didn't push back at all. Anyway, so.

John Dehlin [01:48:11] And it goes. It probably is worth mentioning that of course, here in the United States, we have an informed consent problem, but it's got to be even worse in Latin America in terms of just how few people know about this type of. I mean, I guess they have the Internet, but if it's hard for. It's not along the Wasatch front. And there are literally 90% of the Mormon Church along the Wasatch Front in 2021 has never heard of any of this. The essays, any of the podcasts, CBS that are still oblivious. It just. I would imagine it has to be way worse in a. In a developing country.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] In a different language.

Carah Burrell [01:48:48] Like, you go from colonization to informed consent. I'm talking. That's a wide bridge to gap. Right. Colonization to inform consent. What are you going to do?

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:56] And big thing I told him is like, we're not the laymanites. Like, yeah, we. We don't have any blood that ties us to. To Israel.

John Dehlin [01:49:05] How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:06] I found out that the church had changed the introduction to the Book of Mormon. I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] To what? From what? To what?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:13] From that the American Indians were the principal ancestors of the. Of the Lamanites. And now it says that we are. That the American Indians are among the ancestors of the. The. Of the Lamanites.

John Dehlin [01:49:30] Why did they make that change?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:32] Because DNA studies. DNA studies have proven that there's no connection between American Indians and Israel. It's what I was taught in school. We come from Asia. I mean, you go to Mexico. You go to Mexico and the very native people, they. They do look a little Asian. But anyway, so can I just ask about that?

John Dehlin [01:49:56] That is. For some reason, this is so near and dear to my heart. There's something that feels particularly violent or wrong about. And it's so weird because you described it in the beginning of your interview as being something that Mexican Mormons loved. Being told that they had a history and that they were connected to these people. The pure blood of Israel and their Lamanites and their descendants of the Nephites and the Lamanites. Like, you described that as being special and made people feel Pride and meaning and purpose.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] As I for some reason now feel like that's super insidious to manufacture an identity, you know, and then to, then, then to impose that on a group of vulnerable people. And instead of telling them where they really came from or helping them discover for themselves where they really come from, giving them a false, manufactured, fictitiously, superstitiously constructed identity and then having them associate with that and feel pride from it, for some reason, that feels just really offensive and violent.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:09] Now it feels that, like, that way for me because my whole life I, I live in Merida. We have some of the best Mayan pyramids and ruins nearby, Chichen Itza. It's like an hour and a half from my home to loom. Three hours. And I grew up thinking like this were the Lamanites like, oh, that this means some. This means that. And look, they had like celestial, A celestial temple. And then celestial and terrestrial, they had these three temples. And look how it compares to the temple today.

John Dehlin [01:51:42] And there's a serpent and there's the Tree of Life.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:45] Yeah. And Jesus is Quetzalcoatl and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] And what's wrong with that? Now that you, now that you're discovering your real authentic native heritage, what's wrong or violent about.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:57] Well, they gave us, they gave us a fake narrative, an American made up fake narrative of who we are, who we are. And having to grow up having to always trying to make every informate little piece of information that you hear about your heritage and having to try to make it fit into what you know about the Book of Mormon and Mormonism in general.

John Dehlin [01:52:23] What's wrong with that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:24] I. I just, I just think is. I don't know. It's just wrong.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:34] I just think it's wrong. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] Yeah, it'd be like. It'd be like telling me that my parents were someone else's parents.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] They weren't my parents.

Carah Burrell [01:52:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:44] How awful. Imagine how it would be. My parents are Dave and Nan and being told my parents are Bill and Sue and my whole life believing that my parents are different than who they really are. That that would be awful. And it's, it's not just your parents, but your, Your whole cultural, genetic ancestry and your identity going back. And by the way, we don't have to belabor this point, but the whole mound builder narrative that the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith just literally just plagiarized and adopted into the Book of Mormon is a super racist narrative that wasn't original to Joseph Smith. It was the way that we, as colonizers of the American frontier, justify genocide by displacing the Native Americans, kicking them out, killing them, slaughtering them, infecting them with our diseases so that literally millions of Native Americans died of disease and famine and war from north to South America.

John Dehlin [01:53:49] Right. We had to justify that violence, that displacement and that colonialism. So we had to dehumanize them, and we had to balance that with all the beautiful ruins and the art and the relics and the. In the language and the culture. It's not a small thing to develop a native language. I learned this reading Guns, Germs and Steel. There are only a few, a handful of civilizations that independently developed written language, Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] You know, it's. It's like the Sumerians and the Egyptians and freaking the Mayans. Like there are. There are only a few. And you guys did it. And you had a calendar and you had a language and you had math and a numbering system. You had way better agriculture than. Than the Europeans did. So many incredible advances in art and civilization. But, like, since we were killing you all and displacing you, we had to dehumanize you. So we come up with this mound builder myth that, oh, well, all these incredible ruins. It couldn't have been dark people that did this because we're killing all those people, and they. They're subhuman. So there must have been a light race of natives who did all this cool advanced stuff. And they must have been killed off by the dark people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] And that was just for a couple hundred years before Joseph Smith. That's the way that we justified the genocide we were committing on you guys. And so Joseph brings that into the Book of Mormon, and today we're all like, oh, my gosh, what a wonderful thing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:19] What a unique thing.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] That's so creative.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:21] Could anyone think about that?

John Dehlin [01:55:23] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:23] But.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] But part of what's so awful about it, and Michael Coe helped me realize this, is that to call Native Americans dark and loathsome and lazy and slothful, the opposite is true. They were hardworking, creative, smart geniuses. And so here you are, Gerardo, this brilliant, young, promising kid, being told your super ancestors were made dark and loathsome because of their wickedness, when really your ancestors were sophisticated badasses that just unfortunately got slaughtered by guns, germs, and steel that the Europeans brought over because of. You're at the wrong latitude or longitude given the animals and the. In the territories that you guys lived in, you weren't able to develop the same to the Same level of civilization that they were, not because of their intelligence or your intelligence, but because of what animals were available to them and what diseases they were able to develop immunities to so that then they could infect you.

John Dehlin [01:56:22] Like, it's just a. It, it's such an outrageous thing to teach you that your ancestors are ignorant, dark and loathsome and lazy when really they were brilliant and sophisticated. To me, that's part of why it's violent. What's that?

Carah Burrell [01:56:38] I just said, amen to that. Gun sturms and steel. It's a good book. Yeah. It's the answer to a lot of what you just said.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:44] So anyway, I don't, I don't mean to put all that on you, but that's how I feel.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:47] I agree. I agree 100%. And just a few months, I think last year I called my mom because sometimes when you have lost your faith in the church, you lose track of all the stuff you used to believe and that you forget that there's people that still believe it. So I called my mom on the phone, I think it was last year, and I said, mom, is it your understanding that the reason why my skin is dark or like any Mexican person, their skin is black or dark is because we are descendants from the Lamanites who were cursed with dark skin? Is that your understanding? And she said, yeah, people still believe it.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] Oh, yeah. But then Mormon apologists in the United States are like, we never taught that.

Carah Burrell [01:57:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Never taught that. It's. There's a difference between the curse and the mark of the curse. And they have some contorted justification. The Book of Mormon is not racist. It's never been racist.

Carah Burrell [01:57:50] It's about that idea.

John Dehlin [01:57:51] Where, where did your mom get that idea?

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:53] And then the Book of Mormon central, who is receiving money from the church and on their website they say they receive money from the church. They're telling people in Mexico that they're descendants from. From the Lamanites.

John Dehlin [01:58:05] Yeah. Still.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:06] Still.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] How do you unring that bell? Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:11] Yeah, yeah. But I think the biggest and think the, the thing that made me the math the most was Joseph was polygamy doctrine. He went. Joseph went against everything that he wrote on his own revelations in Doctrine Covenants 132. He married other men's wives. He married mother daughter pairs. Yeah. Non virgins. Mother daughter. Paris. He went against all his stat revelations and he hided. He hid it from Emma.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] She was like the 17th wife or something.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:55] 20. 20 something. He was 20 something. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] Get that Everybody That Joseph got sealed to his first wife, like 23 wives in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:06] And he kept it from her until then and only brought her in once she discovered he was hiding and lying about all these other marriages. Makes no sense. And the doctrine covenant says that the first wife is supposed to approve all the subsequent wives. So that clearly didn't happen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:21] And today a Mormon bishop, if you kiss the guy, he will go and tell you you can't take the sacrament and you can't do all these things and you are on probation. But then we give a pass to Joseph. Most of Mormon unique doctrines of Mormonism came after Joseph started practicing polygamy and after he started marrying other men's wives. So why do we believe anything he said after that? Didn't he lose his spirit?

John Dehlin [01:59:56] The spirit, the three degrees of glory, the endowment, the temple ceremony, baptisms for the dead, all that stuff comes after word of wisdom. No, word of wisdom is before.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:06] Oh, and not in 30. 30 something.

Carah Burrell [02:00:08] Right?

John Dehlin [02:00:08] I mean, maybe Phenylger, but. But I mean, most of that new Nauvoo doctrine comes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:14] After he had already started full on polygamy. And so if he's a fallen prophet. I think I hear what you're saying.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] If polygamy made Joseph a fallen prophet, which a lot of progressives tend to think.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] Then. Then why would any of his modern revelations coming after that be valid? Is that what you're saying?

Carah Burrell [02:00:30] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:31] And if they're valid, why are we grilling people who commit sexual sins today? Why don't we give them the same pass as Joseph? Be like, oh, you did this wrong. It's fine. Just keep going, keep coming to church, you still have the spirit, you're fine. Just maybe don't do it again or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] So what? You know, some just believe. Well, God command like Kwaku. God commanded it. So if God tells you to marry girls, you're going to marry girls.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:56] Because if you want to believe that Joseph went again, his own revelation. I mean, whatever you think, whatever. I don't know. I just don't know how to. I can't convince you otherwise. If you can't see how bad it was that he was marrying other men's wives behind Emma's back. What God commands that from anyone? I mean, if it was 1, 2, 3, 4 wives, 5 maybe, that's okay, right?

John Dehlin [02:01:22] Carah? If it's 1, 2, 3 or 4, 5.

Carah Burrell [02:01:25] If I was Emma, I'd be like, I'm cutting it off at 20, please.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:30] I could maybe still believe that. Yeah. God was sending angels with drawn swords to command him to keep marrying but almost 40 wives. Why was that necessary? And the fact that I was taught by my mission president, by every leader in the church that polygamy was lived to take care of the widows and take care of the. Of the women who were left after the war

John Dehlin [02:01:58] when there were more men who were single than women.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:01] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] It's also just sometimes we don't mention this, but the fact that. How convenient it is in DNC132 that God's telling Emma she'll be smitten and destroyed if she doesn't allow Joseph to keep practicing polygamy. That I. How can you interpret that as anything other than an egregious abuse of. Of unrighteous dominion to threaten Emma with eternal death and damnation if she doesn't let Joseph keep sleeping around in effect.

Carah Burrell [02:02:33] Right.

John Dehlin [02:02:34] That's pretty coercive and abusive. Unless that's. Unless. Unless that's the God you believe in, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:41] Like Kwaku. Which cool dude. Keep believing that God. I'm fine with that. Anyway, so went through a really hard time. Faith crisis for the whole year. I was obsessed with Mormonism and Mormon stuff. And we. It got to that point, at this point, like six months before graduating, I had one semester left.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:11] We started getting very nervous, especially me. What happens if we get caught? I only have one semester left. If we get caught, that would mean that I would lose my student status. Just as soon as I get kicked out, I lose my visa status. I have to go back to Mexico. I think I have 72 hours to go back to Mexico right after I get kicked. Kicked out. If not 48, I can't remember.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:37] And it had happened to a friend of mine, so I knew how it worked. So we started getting really nervous and we decided that the best thing we were already engaged, that the best thing was going to be getting married.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:52] Because if we got married, that would mean even if I got kicked out, I could still stay in the country and then fix the paperwork after being get kicked out for. For staying in the US because if I got kicked out and had to move to Mexico, getting a fiance visa, marriage visa, those take forever, sometimes years.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:16] And yeah, it's just gonna be really hard. So. So we decided it was a super fast decision. I was going into LA for a work trip and we decided let's just elope and you meet me here in LA and we'll get married. So the day before our marriage, I was there, Zach was still in Idaho and I went and bought us Clothes bought us both shirts, like matching shirts, this cute linen shirts. And I found a place in LA where we. A little chapel that we could get married elope. So we did it and we. He. He came the. The next day. Oh, sorry. That night I think he arrived and then the next morning.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:05] It was super, super cute. We went to the beach that morning and then our friend who we were staying with drove us who also studied at BYU Idaho and was my. Was my roommate at some point. He had already graduated.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:20] He was presented himself as straight while at BYU Idaho. But then when he moved to California, he came out. So we were staying with him. He drove us to the. To the be and then drove us to the chapel and we. We got married. He was the only one there.

John Dehlin [02:05:38] And was it bittersweet?

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] What was the sweet and what was the bitter.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:44] The suite was a cute moment. Like I. I love Zach and I was happy of her decision and doing this together. And it was just a cute little ceremony. A little sad. The fact that we couldn't tell our parents. We couldn't tell anyone. We had to keep it a secret.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:05] And yeah, at one point later I talked to my mom and I told her like, do you think it was my. That I wouldn't have wanted you to be at my wedding ceremony like just like any other normal person. But I had to do it because to protect myself, protect Zach and protect the fact that we wanted to be together.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:36] So yeah, as. That's great. This was. We got married a year after we got engaged and went back to BYU Idaho. We were living at the same place and just finished my last semester. I was spending minimum time in Rexburg because I was working in Idaho Falls. So I would just be in Rexburg for classes and then going to sleep and working in Idaho Falls. And then graduation came. I didn't walk. I just wanted to be out of there as fast as possible.

John Dehlin [02:07:08] By this time you were emailing me and. Yeah, we were in contact. Yeah, I think I. Sam Young March. You came to or you came to.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:15] I came to Thrive.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:16] On November. In November. Yeah. We came to Thrive. We met you took a picture with you. Yeah. And I had already emailed you about kind of our story a couple months before. Thrive.

John Dehlin [02:07:26] That's right.

Carah Burrell [02:07:29] And

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:31] yeah, we.

John Dehlin [02:07:34] You made it out.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:34] Yeah, made it out. So this part of how my parents found out, I told them. I called my. It was like I still had two months before graduation and I called my mom and I told my mom what would you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:59] Because she was a BYU Idaho student online she went through the Pathway Program, and she had finished byu, Idaho. I think she had already graduated. So I asked her, what. What would you do if you knew that I was doing something to break the honor code? Like, would you tell on me?

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:15] And she's like, well, you're already telling me you did something, so you might as well tell me what you did. And she was like. And no, I would not tell you. So it's like, well, I'm married to Zach.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:30] And she just went quiet for a little, and she said, well, I kind of. We kind of already suspected a little. And they knew we lived together. I had taken him to Mexico the year before, and she was already. I think what helped a lot was that I had talked to them about my faith crisis a year, like, several months before. So they were already prepared that something like that was gonna come sooner or later.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:08] She took it pretty good, I think. I mean, she was not thrilled and like, oh, congratulations, or anything like that. I think she said, I'll talk to your dad about it. Because I said, should I talk to my dad, or do you want to tell him? And she said, I'll talk to him. But then I decided to just call my dad, and I asked him the same question, like, what would you do if I tell. Tell you that I did something, and would you tell him?

John Dehlin [02:09:35] Me?

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:35] He said. He. He said, just tell me already. What did you do? So I said, okay. So I married. I married Zach.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] And this is before you graduated?

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:49] Two months and a month and a half before I graduated. So it was risky.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:09:53] What made you feel like you had to tell them is just keep it in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:56] Oh, my gosh. We've been dating for so long, engaged for so long, and we were married already, and not being able to tell them was just killing me. I had already told them about my faith crisis.

John Dehlin [02:10:08] And you're pretty close to your parents. I mean, your mom.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:10] Yeah. We would talk. We would talk freely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:15] Can you.

Carah Burrell [02:10:16] Banking on that.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Imagine being married, talking to your mom or parents weekly and having to hide that from them for how long?

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:25] A year and eight months.

John Dehlin [02:10:28] Talking to them weekly.

Carah Burrell [02:10:31] Yeah. I'm just gonna go home and cry into my pillow of my straight privilege right now. That sucks, man.

John Dehlin [02:10:37] Yeah, it's hard.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:38] So my dad told me. Okay, so now you have to go and talk. Do the right thing, and go to tell your bishop.

Carah Burrell [02:10:46] Oh, shoot.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:49] I was like, you already know. I don't believe in the. I didn't tell him this, but I'm just thinking, you already know. I don't believe in the church at all. You. You're expecting me to go to the

John Dehlin [02:10:59] bishop, Throw your degree away.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:01] Right?

John Dehlin [02:11:01] Get kicked out of the country.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:03] Right. So I. I said I'm not gonna go to the bishop. What? And I got mad and I think I hanged up. And we didn't talk much after that. And then I graduated.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] But they didn't turn you in.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:21] Yeah. Something my dad did say is, like, when you graduate, please delete everyone on social media that has ties to us here in Mexico. So I don't want anyone from here, from our country to find out that you are same sex. Married. Married. I don't want my family to find out. I don't want the word, the stake. No, I don't want anyone to find out. And that kind of really, kind of also made me upset. I didn't say yes. I said I didn't say no. I just hanged up second. I plan.

Coming Out to Family and Navigating Marriage

John Dehlin [02:12:02] How'd that make you feel, though?

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:03] Made me feel sad. And I'm a pretty. I could say I'm pretty prideful. Like when I. When I know something, I'm going to do something. Like I'm going to do it no matter what what they tell me. So I don't. It did make me feel bad that he would say something like that, but it didn't make me think twice if I should do it or not. I knew that was the first thing I wanted to do once I was out of Rexburg. Come out and make it public.

Carah Burrell [02:12:34] Yeah. Good for you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:35] And in some way. Show. Look, we're not this perfect family who you all guys thought we were. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:49] And yeah, the Mormon mask of the perfect family with problems underneath extends to Mexico. That's not just a Utah thing, right? The fake appearance based Mormon. Not that your family's awful, but every family's got problems.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:06] There's this focus on appearance and making everything look perfect. That's a thing in Mexico.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:12] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:13:12] Yeah. Surprise. There's LGBTQ people in Mexico too. Surprise. Conversion therapy doesn't work for Mexicans either. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:19] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:21] So Zach and I planned to have a trip right after graduation, go to Disney World for. For Christmas, because we knew, well, we can't go to Mexico for Christmas. And Zach hasn't told his parents that he is married or that he has lost his faith. And we can't tell them because I don't have my. My degree. My degree is not posted yet. So his mom could still go to the school.

John Dehlin [02:13:50] And I think we were talking about this offline. People don't understand who aren't connected to byu. That if BYU finds out before you actually receive your degree that you've done something wrong, violated the honor code. They have a history of withholding your degree and not letting you graduate.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:14:09] So that people have to literally go to some other university, try and transfer credits and. And then actually finish their. Pay the extra expense, pay the extra time, and try and graduate through another university. Because literally BYU has held people's diploma after students have met all the criteria to graduate once they've learned that someone violated the honor code. Byu, the Mormon Church, has done that and still does that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] So you had to wait till the degree was posted.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:38] So what Zach did was just giving

Carah Burrell [02:14:42] the evil eye to the church. Right now I just am thinking about. There's this TikTok account called, like, we TikTok of Christ. And it's like, does the LDS Church hate gay people? No, no, no, no, no. And it's like a minute of apologetics.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:55] Well, as soon as you do what they want you to do, they don't hate you.

Carah Burrell [02:15:00] Yeah. They withhold your degree because after you graduate, goodness gracious.

John Dehlin [02:15:04] After you meet all the painful.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:07] So you had to wait.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:08] Yeah. So he told his parents, I'm going to go to Disney World for Christmas, and. But I can't tell you who I'm going with. That's what he told his parents. This was huge. Like, his family is super close. They get together for Christmas every year. Like all the grandparents, like, like not being at home for Christmas like that. Devastating his parents that they already knew something was wrong about that point.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:34] And Disney World was great, was. We loved it, it was super fun. And while we were there, my degree was posted online. So he told his parents while we were there, he wrote this long letter, sent it to them, and told them, please read everything, don't respond on 20, wait 24 hours, think about it, and then respond. The first thing his mom does is start texting him like crazy. Just mad and like, super bad stuff. Like, Satan is guiding you and you're on Satan's clutches and just please come back home and just, you can't do this to us. And it was just a really big bong to throw all at once, I feel. But I mean, how else? There was no other way to do it.

John Dehlin [02:16:30] How was that for Zach and how was that for you?

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:32] It was hard. It's hard. Super sad to watch. His mom broke his heart. It got to be so bad that at one point his mom was texting him all these horrible things. And I Grabbed my phone and texted his dad and told him like, you should talk to your wife because suicide is a real thing and why you're. What your wife is doing is just horrible.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:24] And I think she. He did talk to her, but I mean that just made her more mad. He just texted her and like, tell her Arto to stop telling your dad that I'm. Whatever to be kind of like getting in between this and I don't know, I just made. Made it worse.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:47] I don't know. But he. After that she did stop the text stop and just crickets after that. And what. What has heard tack the most is he grew up not having many friends and his best friends were his cousins who live in Utah and are members of the church and his aunts and loved.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:18] He always felt like even though they didn't know he was gay, that. That he was able to be who he was with them and they were accepting and didn't judge him for being feminine or being different. But after she told them that he was married to me, it's the same just Mormon crickets.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:45] We stopped being invited to. Well, yeah, we were not invited to family meetings or family gatherings or. I mean, before they found out this when every time Zach would come to Utah, he would be invited to their house. He would see them all the time. And all of a sudden we live here in Utah, just a few miles away from them, and he doesn't hear anything from them.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] And

Gerardo Sumano [02:19:20] yeah, it's been hard for him and it's been hard for me too, because I sometimes feel that I. I am part of that. I've been part of that because since I came out on social media and then graduated from byu, BYU Idaho, I've been more vocal on social media about truth claim stuff and just stuff about the church and being more critical about it. And I think that has cost that. That hasn't made it better, you know, but he still supports me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:17] And why are you vocal? Because why not just be quiet and go away?

Gerardo Sumano [02:20:25] Mormons and was my life. I gave two years to this institution. And my. My parents will never see me the same way they see my sister, for example, or his parents will never see him the same way than if he had married a woman. This institution has really affected our lives in so many different ways. And even though we're happy, we're super happy. We love our life, but we're. We've been affected and still affected by this organization, which in some ways I. I still love and I'm fascinated by it and. But at the same time, it just has hurt us so much. People are gonna say, like, how has it. Heard it hurt you? Like, you ended up with a degree

John Dehlin [02:21:34] from the university in the United States. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:21:37] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:37] You're bilingual. You're financially relatively very successful.

Carah Burrell [02:21:41] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:21:42] And like I said, we're happy. We have a successful life Right. Right now, living the American dream. But again, it's just the most. One of the most important relationships that you can have as a human is with your parents and your family. And that, that, that will never be the same. And it's all because of this. Because of the church.

John Dehlin [02:22:12] Yeah.

Family Reconciliation and Reflections on the Church

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:17] Anyway, so my. My parents have come around like 180 degrees. Like, so they're at a point where I never thought they would be. They've come and stay with us for last Christmas and New Year's. My mom stayed with us for like three weeks and then my dad came and stay with us for like a week for New Year's.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] And that's you and Zach living together as husband. Husband. And they're staying with you. Yeah, that's a. I mean, it seem so. It's. It seems like they've gotten a lot better.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I never thought they would be at this point that fast.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] Don't they treat Zach pretty well?

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:01] Oh, they love him.

John Dehlin [02:23:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:02] My mom loves Zach.

John Dehlin [02:23:04] That's great.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:04] Yeah, yeah, it's great. And he helped a lot that they came this last Christmas and my mom lived with us for three weeks and she was able to see our relationship and in some ways how our relationship is better than theirs.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:24] Yeah. She's told me and written me this beautiful text after staying with us that it really helped her, really help her heal and see things that she doesn't have in her own relationship and how happy she is that we love each other and love each other and my dad was just the same. Is happy for us.

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:52] One of the things he. One night is I had gone to sleep and I was just talking to my parents and one of the nights they were staying here and my dad told me he started crying a little bit and said one of the things I regret the most is not have. Have learned English because I can communicate with Zach. And that's one of the things that I would have wanted to do to be able to communicate with him and tell him that I love him. He asked us to bless the house because we just bought a new house and that's where they stayed.

John Dehlin [02:24:36] He.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:36] He. We all kneeled and he blessed the house for. No, he said something really interesting. He said so that no bad spirits could enter. Could enter the house that could distant be put a distance between me and Zach.

Carah Burrell [02:24:54] It's kind of beautiful. Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:57] How'd you feel?

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:59] It's great. Yeah. It's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:25:01] He's blessing that your relationship. Yeah. Strong.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:04] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:25:05] He must not believe that there's already bad spirits between you already he's kind of sanctioned this gay union in a way.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:11] Yeah. One hundred and he, he has been able to work out his mind, his theology with the fact that Zach and I are married and happy. And what he has said is you on this, on the Book of Mormon he talks about that we're saved by grace after all we can do. And I, I've seen that you did all you could do and the Lord will justify. Even though I don't believe in the Book of Mormon anymore.

Carah Burrell [02:25:50] He pulled out some good parts.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:51] Just the fact that he, he's able, he has gone that far really means a lot to me. And sex parents are a lot better. Still not the same. But he's still hurt a lot by, by his extended family specifically on his mom's side if not not taking it this the way he maybe thought they would.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:22] He really thought at one point that his, his aunts and cousins were the ones that were going to be accepting and loving and that his mom was going to learn from them and that through them his mom was going to be able to come around. But it has, it has been the opposite.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:41] It's kind of, it's been kind of like his aunt are seeing how much they can condone by first waiting to see how the mom react. His mom reacts. You know, kind of like trying to get the permission first and not get in trouble.

Gerardo Sumano [02:27:01] I mean all family relations are different. I don't know. I still blame the church for that. And yeah, just the last thing. Recently Zach made a. Well, you made that video at that TikTok video about us and about Ty Callister and recently and, and I shared it. Zach saw it and shared it on his social media and he received this text from one of his cousins telling him pretty much like I just don't understand if I, if I don't post anti gay stuff. Why do you have to come against my church if I love you, I respect you. Why, why can't you do the same for me?

Gerardo Sumano [02:27:53] And Zach wrote this really beautiful thing where he said, you will never understand how it feels to have your own mom not ever look at you the same way that she will look at your siblings or that every time you Want to talk to your siblings, you have to have authorization from your mom and make sure your mom is okay with it or that your grandma. His grand. Zach's grandparents have come from his mom's side, have completely shunned him since he came out, and he had a beautiful relationship with his grandparents before. He loved his grandparents. Specifically, it was from his mom's side.

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:38] He loves both. Both. But. And when he came out, they've completely shunned him. Not talk to him. One word. And, yeah, he told her, like, you're never gonna understand what that feels like. What. It feels like you're never gonna be able to talk to grandma, and grandma is never gonna smile at you again. Just. And this is all because of what

John Dehlin [02:29:07] the church has taught them and continues to teach.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:10] Right? Right.

Carah Burrell [02:29:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:14] His. His cousin was like, well, leaders are wrong, and sometimes they can be wrong and say bad things, but why do we kind of, like, need to talk about it? Why do we. Why. Why do you have to be criticizing the church? I mean, I don't know. I. It's affecting.

John Dehlin [02:29:42] So,

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:46] yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:48] I mean, there. Not only did it affect your entire life and framed your entire life, and, I mean, this whole interview is a testament to how the church helped you, but also really hurt you. And, you know, if there's an abusive spouse who's done good things but is super abusive, does that let the abusive spouse off the hook? No. If they beat their wife, they're still accountable, even if they also got her lots of gifts and bought her a pretty house or a pretty wedding ring. Like, you don't. Abusers don't. Aren't let off the hook for their abuse by the nice things they also did.

John Dehlin [02:30:23] In fact, most abusers can be super nice. So, yeah, you don't get a pass for the damage you've done by the good things you've done, first of all. But second of all, silence is the killer. And it's not like you're just attacking the church neutrally because you don't like their beliefs. They're literally attacking you guys, denying, invalidating your. Your life choices, calling you dangerous, calling you part of Satan's plan. Are you not allowed to respond? Are you. Are you literally supposed to stay silent and quiet and let them speak publicly in abusive ways that.

John Dehlin [02:31:01] That allows this ripple effect of LGBT harm to continue generation after generation after generation? And you're just supposed to stay silent about that because it might hurt someone's feelings? Like, how is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:16] How's that fair? How's that reasonable?

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:19] And I messaged her. After Zach told me about it, I told her how. I just have a question. How many suicides of members of the church do you know that they've died by suicide because someone criticizing the church.

John Dehlin [02:31:40] Yeah. How many orthodox Mormons have died by suicide because somebody said something mean on TikTok? You know what I mean?

Carah Burrell [02:31:47] Right.

John Dehlin [02:31:47] None.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:48] But. But how many suicides do you know of. Of LGBT kids dying by suicide because of what the church teaches to them, to their families and their families ostracizing them because of what the church taught them or teaching teaches them? I know of. Of at least 10. You recent? Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] Over the years, there's been thousands, right? Thousands, right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:14] Yeah. This is just me. Like, I'm not looking out there. Hey, who committed suicide? Who died by suicide, by the way?

John Dehlin [02:32:20] Nine, 11, what, 3,000 people died.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:23] And that's like one of the worst events ever in the United States history. I mean, that's. That's just a decade or. Or less within Mormonism for LGBT suicides.

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:34] Right.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] If we count four decades, it's probably in the tens of thousands, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:40] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:32:40] Yeah. We never know what contributing factors go into any old Mormon suicide, whether teen or grown up. You never know what things people are struggling with and what factors and teachings led them to take their own life.

John Dehlin [02:32:52] Well, especially because of the culture of silence where so many people die by suicide. And you just make the Mormon. Mormon funerals are famous for, like, pretending like nothing bad ever happened and they were super faithful and they died having the Lord and.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:06] And the funeral is talking all about death. We talk about plan of salvation only and just about how good members of the church they were.

John Dehlin [02:33:15] And we hide the real causes. So who knows the number is what we're saying, right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:21] We know it's in the thousands, the tens of thousands.

Carah Burrell [02:33:24] Right?

John Dehlin [02:33:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:25] All this. This lady does, organizing the FY I saw, she had a video where she talks about the suicide of a girl, recent, super recent. Who was lgbt, and she left a note saying, I'm. I'm dying by suicide because I know my family will not accept me. So now it happens, and I don't understand. And Zach did tell her, like, how do you make you feel when you let your family and your. Your friends who are contributing and paying tithing to a church who is fighting against LGBT rights constantly, legally putting a lot of money into not passing bills or passing bills that harm LGBT people? Yeah. It's just. I don't know. But, yeah. So anyway, this was. That was recent, and. But my parents are good. They're they're great.

John Dehlin [02:34:44] And we don't want to, we don't want to kind of rush over. I mean, your mom had told you that really awful thing, right. Beginning that you won't be my son anymore, basically.

Carah Burrell [02:34:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] What an amazing turnaround. And, and that your dad's coming around. Like, I, we can't just blow that off. Like, that's amazing, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:01] Yeah, yeah. But that's not because of the church.

John Dehlin [02:35:07] That's in spite of the church, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:35:10] You'd hope that like the family first ideas around Mormonism. Families are forever. Sometimes it can go in the wrong way where you're not going to be part of our eternal family anymore if you choose to marry a man and choose to not live on the covenant path. And I hope that the best things about Mormonism are the family first plaques that people have in their houses. You know, that they will remember that family comes before this institution and to like, love first and be an ally to your child, their spouse, that there are things that come before having their allegiance to this $100 billion organization sometimes. So that's really beautiful that your parents were able to make that kind of progression.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:49] Yeah, yeah. And it's a very unique way to progress too, because it's one thing to say, okay, I tolerate you and. I love you no matter what. And it's a different thing where I feel like they are at where they celebrate our marriage. And which that's not happening on Zach's side, at least part of his, the mom's side of his family, it just feels very different. You can tell, you can feel it. No matter how many times this orthodox people tell us that they love us no matter what, you know that gay people, you know that in the back of their mind they still believe to the core that same sex marriage is of the devil.

Carah Burrell [02:36:50] So,

John Dehlin [02:36:53] yeah, that's not love.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:55] Yeah, it's hard. It's hard because he puts you in us in a position where like, because I can see their frustration, I could see his gossip frustration of saying, I'm frustrated that you don't believe me when I say I love you. But I think it comes more to the fact that you can tell me you love me, but the fact that you believe my marriage is counterfeit, that just doesn't do it for me.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] It doesn't feel like love.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:37:33] I think it really comes back to, I was saying a few years ago, when you accept that the church is true and you accept the proclamation of the family, it's so difficult to, in my Mind, it was impossible for me to believe that God would sanction this marriage. I'm just trying to put myself back into where these people were at. And that, yeah, you're not doing it the way that Adam and Eve did it. You're doing it this alternative way. And it's just too difficult to accept any way but God's way. That's. That's the one way that he defined marriage. And if you're living outside of that, you're living in sin, de facto sin.

Carah Burrell [02:38:07] And just to. Just to tell them that you can still believe in a God who did that. But it also doesn't mean I can change my sexuality, doesn't mean I can marry a woman, doesn't mean I can be celibate. Like, even if you believe that, there's no way that I can change my sexuality. I wish, I wish Mormons could just really get that into their hearts and their heads. I came around.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] Also, shout out a reference to the resource on Latter Gay Stories. Kyle Ashworth put together a PDF called for the Record, and it's this amazing history of the church's dealings with the LGBTQ people. And he's even updated it to include the latest stuff. But even if you don't even care about LGBT people and you just want to see how inconsistent and harmful the church leaders have been on an issue and how much they've contradicted themselves and been all over the place and caused. Said really horrendous things and caused so much harm, it. It can be a. It can help you in your journey just to read the history. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes for the record, at Latter Gay Stories, everyone's got to read that. Gay or not, straight or not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] Yeah. All right, final, final thoughts before we close. Gerardo

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:25] just. Yeah, I don't know. Thanks, John, for letting me be in more on Mormon stories and letting me tell my story and, yeah, I hope I didn't make anyone too, too bored.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] Well, I've done, you know, 2,000 hours worth of these things and I wasn't bored, so hopefully I know our listeners are going to love it too. Carah, were you bored?

Carah Burrell [02:39:49] Not at all. I'm. I have a lot to repent for post Mormon as a recovering homophobe, so I had so much to learn and I have never sat in this long form interview with hearing somebody's story start to finish about their gay upbringing and sorry, gay upbringing is not the way Mormon upbringing as a, as a, as a gay person and understanding and trying to find empathy in places that I couldn't have found three years ago, you know, so makes me kind of want to take back some things that I would have said or thought about people that I should have been a better ally to back in my Mormon days. So I'm definitely inspired. Thanks for telling your story, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] And like Maya Angelou said in her wisdom, when you know better, you do better. So we can all learn through this and do better. And thank you, Gerardo. I mean, silence really is the killer. Silence is the enabler for multi generational dysfunction. So you being willing to speak out, tell your story, not be silent, not be chased away into silence is going to help thousands and thousands and thousands of gay, straight, trans, you know, people either live healthier, happier lives themselves or treat their LGBTQ loved ones with more kindness and love and respect. And that's all because you're willing to tell your story.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:10] Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:41:13] Yeah. All right, well, Carah, thanks so much for joining us today. It's been super fun. I love to have you as co pilot.

Carah Burrell [02:41:22] Yeah, thanks for having me, you guys.

John Dehlin [02:41:24] Yeah, it's been great. And Gerardo, thanks for this beautiful cinematography that. That you've given. Not just me and us, but our listeners. Thank you so much.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:33] You've.

John Dehlin [02:41:34] You've really helped us up our game. So thanks again and thanks to Zach and all the family members mentioned today and hope you guys are going to be okay. And. And just thanks to all the listeners. Thanks to all the supporters. We love you guys. Be good to each other. Thanks for everyone who supports us on Mormon Stories. Support us if you can, @mormon stories.org Become a donor. If you're not one already. We'd really appreciate that. And we'll provide you with more content. But most of all, love each other, be kind to each other. Stay tuned in the future, not just on Mormon Stories podcast, but on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, on Facebook. We're trying to meet you wherever you are, but please stay in touch, keep supporting us, be good to each other, and we'll see you guys all again very soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Carah Burrell [02:42:20] Bye.

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