Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1040

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone. It is January 4, 2019. I am Dr. John Dehlin and we are so excited to welcome you to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Today we have as an interviewee someone who for me is one of the most intelligent, thoughtful and inspiring Mormons I've met in my, I don't know, 14 years of doing Mormon Stories podcast. We're going to be interviewing someone who's become a dear friend. Her name is Anna Oronata Reading and she was born and raised in Switzerland as a member of the Mormon Church. This episode has so much to offer. Some of you will know that recently with my wife Margi and Natasha Alfer Parker, we've launched a project called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis and you can find more information about that@mormonfaithcrisis.com but this continues a series that we've been doing on Mormon Stories for many years where we allow people to tell their faith journeys and their journeys as devout orthodox believing Mormons, and their journeys as they begin to question and doubt and eventually lose faith in at least orthodox Mormonism and then how they deal with that. This is very much going to be a part of Anna's story. We're going to be talking about her life growing up as a devout member of the Mormon Church in Switzerland with, I'll say, a semi functional family. How she clung to the church in her teen years because it provided her support and comfort and solace. We'll talk about an epic boyfriend relationship that she had as a teenage girl in Switzerland. We'll talk about how it tragically ended. We'll talk about her mission that she served in Ireland, how she eventually went to BYU and found Bill her husband, and how she and Bill lived the Mormon dream for many, many years, serving in high level callings until that in some ways came crashing down, and how, most importantly to people who are in a faith crisis who are struggling. Ana will talk to us about what that was like for her, what it was like for her to struggle, and how she has managed a mixed faith relationship with her husband, Bill. So there will be a mixed faith marriage element to this story, as well as how she's managed her relationship with her four children, most if not all of whom are remaining believing Mormons at some level or another. Although that, you know, sometimes can change. And we'll talk about how Anna has healed and picked up her life after her faith crisis and how she is doing now and how she's rebuilding a life of health and healing afterwards. We are live streaming this episode and we're super excited to do that. And we have several people who are already joining us now on our live Facebook stream, including Muche from Poland, Brandon James. We welcome everyone who's joining us on our livestream. We hope that you will post questions and comments on the live stream because that makes these interviews more interesting and more interactive. I also just want to let you guys know that we will be kicking off a new round of workshops and retreats this year. They won't be done through the Open Stories foundation. They'll be done through the Mormon Faith Crisis website that you can go to@mormonfaithcrisis.com but if you are interested in attending a workshop or retreat or hosting a workshop or retreat. I first met Anna when she hosted a workshop or retreat that we had in Switzerland just a few months ago, and that was a real pleasure for me and for those who were involved. But if you are interested in attending or hosting a workshop or retreat in your city, we encourage you to reach out@mormonfaithcrisismail.com and let us know. We will be announcing our calendar of workshops and retreats in the coming weeks. And so we want to make sure you know that those are available at again, mormonfaithcrisis.com events. And so that is all the announcements that we have. And so without any further ado, Ana Reading. You're known as Ana Lendo on Facebook. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you.

Ana Reading [00:05:59] Well, thank you very much, John. Thank you for that really kind introduction. And I really enjoy this new podcast that you're doing, the Gift of the Faith Crisis. And I'm finally starting to see it as a gift. So thank you for doing that.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] You didn't always feel it was a gift, did you?

Ana Reading [00:06:20] No, no, not for a while.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Natasha is really good to remind me that I have to be careful when I say the Gift of the Faith Crisis because when you're in the middle of it, it feels like hell.

Ana Reading [00:06:32] It feels like sheer being thought a gift yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Yeah. And I've been with you through some of those times where you weren't feeling like it was a gift. So for me, it's very nice to hear you say you're seeing light at the end of the tunnel because you went through some dark moments. Is that true?

Ana Reading [00:06:51] Yes, very much so. Yeah. There were times when I wished I had never started to doubt anything. And why couldn't I just continue until the end of my life the way I was?

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Yeah. Well, we're so grateful that you are willing to share your story with us. I am not exaggerating when I say you're one of my favorite people that I've ever met in my 14 years of doing Mormon stories.

Ana Reading [00:07:19] Well, thank you very much. And you're one of my favorites. I really enjoyed that. Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] Thank you.

Ana Reading [00:07:27] Still think it's a miracle that it came to be.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Thank you. This is the second, for those who don't know, this is the second interview we've done from Switzerland. Just a few months ago, we did Philip Giesler and he talked about his Swiss Mormon journey. And we've interviewed several other people, including people from Sweden and Norway and I believe, Germany. And we want to continue interviewing people from all over the globe. So if you are a Mormon or post Mormon from a country other than the United States and you feel like you want to represent your country or at least a story from your country, we want to invite you to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and we would love to help you tell your story as well. Our all right, Ana, let's jump into your amazing story. Is that all right?

Ana's Early Life and Joining the Church

Ana Reading [00:08:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] How does someone in Switzerland become a Mormon? How does that happen?

Ana Reading [00:08:25] Yes, that's a good question. Somebody asked me that outside of the church, said, how did a regular girl like you become a Mormon? And actually I'm already a third generation Mormon, so my grandmother joined on my father's side as early as I think it was like around 1918 or something in Basel. And she was a young woman then and she like had been. Well, she had had a very difficult childhood. Her mother had died when she was 11 and her father had then killed himself and she was like farmed off to some strangers where she had to work. She was a think it's called an indentured child laborer. And when she finally got and during that time, what kept her was really her faith in God. And then when she was on her own and she overheard her minister talking to someone else and making fun of religion and saying he didn't believe any of the stuff he taught on Sunday. And that totally destroyed her. And that's how she tells the story. She went home and prayed and asked God to give her a sign whether he existed. And it was just a couple days later, according to her story, that the missionaries knocked on her door. And so she felt like it was a direct answer to her prayer. And she joined the church and so did her husband and they had a child. And that's my father, but my.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] So you're a third generation Swiss mom?

Ana Reading [00:10:04] I am, yes, I am.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] And what year approximately would your grandma have joined the church?

Ana Reading [00:10:11] I think around 1918. So it's like almost 100 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] 1918. That's amazing.

Ana Reading [00:10:19] I know. She was born in 1894.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Holy moly.

Ana Reading [00:10:24] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] And the Switzerland temple wouldn't have been built yet, right?

Ana Reading [00:10:27] Oh, no, that wasn't built until the 50s, you know.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Okay, so there probably wouldn't have been more than a thousand Swiss Mormons at the time she joined?

Ana Reading [00:10:37] I think so, yeah. There were very few. I wouldn't know the exact numbers. She was one of the first members there in Basel. The mission office was still in Basel. And a lot of these original members have emigrated to the States. But she couldn't because she got divorced and she was a single mom and she didn't have the money to go to the States. She remained behind. In fact, I was once at a 1st of August celebration, that's our national holiday in Salt Lake with a bunch of people that used to know my father as a child. And also midway, there's a whole bunch of these Swiss that emigrated.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] That's right, yeah. Swiss days.

Ana Reading [00:11:20] Yeah. My father grew up in the church and you know, he had a difficult childhood because my grandmother, I think, was a very difficult person. She was a drama queen and she was, you know, lots of difficult things about her. And so when he was, when he was a young man, he got married and he. Well, he converted. The person he was getting married to, she was Jewish and they had two children, two sons. But then he got divorced as well and he left Basel and he was inactive for quite some time. And then he got active again and married again in Zurich and he had two more girls at that point. And then my mother started working for them as a nanny.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Uh. Oh, wait a minute. So if your mother. We've got a Fanny Alger situation there. So if your mother is working for him while he's married, that doesn't bode well for the second marriage.

Ana Reading [00:12:29] Right. And she was also a lot younger she was 17 years younger than or 16 years younger than. And yeah, they had an affair, but not until after he had baptized her into the church. So she. She was not a member, but he baptized her. And she was telling me always that she loved. She had been a Billy Graham, you know, believer. You know, she had seen him in Geneva and had believed in him. And then she loved the Mormon Church because they had a living prophet that really appealed to her that there was a prophet speaking today. And so, yeah, he baptized her, but then he had an affair and he got excommunicated for this. But my mom stayed in the church, and I was born shortly after that. I was a result of this.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] That's got to be weird to join God's one true church in the midst of participating in an extramarital affair.

Ana Reading [00:13:30] I think so, yeah. I can only.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Did your mom ever talk about that contradiction, or was that too deep to go?

Ana Reading [00:13:38] My mom was not a person that could really talk about her feelings, but she did always say, don't ever do what I did, you know, don't ever follow my example. So she did feel like it was bad, you know, but, yeah, she didn't really talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Okay.

Ana Reading [00:13:57] Yeah. So then they got married. You know, they got married before I was born.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] So this was your dad's third marriage?

Ana Reading [00:14:06] It's my dad's third marriage, yeah. He already had four other children.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Would that have been super unconventional for Switzerland at the time, or normal?

Ana Reading [00:14:16] No, I think it was unconventional.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] Okay.

Ana Reading [00:14:19] But my grandmother had been married four times, so, yeah, it was kind of a pattern there. Yeah. And so they moved to Bern. This was. Had been in Zurich, and they moved to Bern. And the ward in Bern was really, really good. You know, they just fellowshiped them. My dad was still excommunicated. He was not a member, but they. And he was drinking and he was smoking. But they befriended this new family so much, you know, that my dad got re baptized and, you know, we became active in the church. But he always told this story before he got re baptized that there was this. You know, there was some. He had to have some kind of permission, I guess. I don't know exactly how that went, but President Hinckley was at that time, he wasn't the president, he was just an apostle, or Maybe even a 70, I don't know. Anyway, he was in Switzerland and he was talking with the mission president. He said to him, according to my dad, that we don't want people like this guy in the church saying that about my dad.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] That was Gordon B. Hinckley.

Ana Reading [00:15:31] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] That's not very nice.

Ana Reading [00:15:35] Yeah, I never liked him because of that. You know, I thought, he doesn't want my dad. I wouldn't be in the church if, you know, this mission president had listened to him. But maybe, you know, I don't know if it's a true story, but that's what my dad would tell. So. Yeah, then I. He actually got baptized again in time to baptize me. So he couldn't give me, you know, the Holy Ghost. He didn't have the priesthood. He didn't have the Melchizedek priesthood yet, but he could baptize me.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] So did you have. Well, did he ever explain how he was a devout Mormon and had so many affairs and did he ever talk about. Well, tormented with shame, Was he.

Ana Reading [00:16:26] Yeah, he was more open about his feelings. And he was a talker while my mom wasn't. Yeah, he did. He always said that he believed in the church. He always said, the church is true, but there are bad people in it. You know, there are. You know, I was a person that didn't live according to the gospel. I was weak because of, you know, problems from my childhood and stuff. But the church is true. And so kind of this. Kind of gave me this desire to be this person that my dad hadn't been, you know, to always be this faithful person that was. That didn't make the mistakes he had made and. Yeah, that would always be a good person, so to speak.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Yeah. Kind of be Nephi, right?

Ana Reading [00:17:20] Exactly.

Growing Up Mormon in Bern, Switzerland

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Okay, so what was it like growing up in Bern, Switzerland, as a Mormon? As a Mormon girl.

Ana Reading [00:17:34] Right. I mean, I was the only Mormon in school, except for my brother, you know, who's one year younger than me. And. Yeah, so as a child, I think it was not so bad. You know, it was a bit weird, but it was okay. It's just. It's like. Because my family had problems. I mean, my dad, even after he got baptized again and stuff, he still continued to have many problems. He, you know, he had a pill addiction. He kept taking sleeping pills and then pills to function during the day and stuff like this. And my parents would fight a lot and stuff. And so the church for me was a place where I found what I didn't have at home. You know, I found good families. I found people that were strong and good, and it made me feel comforted, you know, And I wanted to have families like these good families in the ward, and I wanted to be like them so that. That, in that sense, the church was really Was really good for me. And I remember we had, like, we still had church in the morning and in the evening. And then on Wednesday afternoon we had primary. And I don't remember how old I was, maybe seven, eight. I wanted to learn ballet, but it was on Wednesday afternoon, and I had this choice, either go to primary or do ballet. And I remember thinking, I must choose the right thing, you know? And I didn't do ballet and I went to primary. And I always thought that in heaven then I would learn ballet. So I'm a bit disappointed to realize that that's not happening now. So, I mean, that just shows you how important it was like, that my parents left me the choice, you know, and I chose a primary. So it was something that was a lot, was very important to me, even as a child.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] I really relate to that. When my parents got divorced, the church really was a support for me and a place that I could rely on, a place that I could get comfort and community, and it meant a great deal.

Ana Reading [00:19:58] Right. And it gave me sort of this sense, you know, like, I loved. I'm a child of God, you know, it's like I am more than, you know, a child of this broken family, you know, there's like this divine in me, and I can become divine. I really liked that idea, you know. So, yeah, and I was a very imaginative child. And I was always putting on plays and making bazaars and flea markets and all these things, you know. And for example, one time we were collecting all these things to sell at a big bazaar. And then in Switzerland, apparently that's not allowed, not even for children. Somebody had called the police, and the police called my parents, and they said, you have to donate all this money to a good cause. You can't keep this money. And it was about 300 francs, which is a lot of money for kids, you know. And I said, okay, let's donate it to. I forgot what it was. Disabled children. And these other kids that were with me in this, they felt like we could just give 10 francs to these disabled children and the rest will keep. Nobody will know. And this was the parents of my friends that were saying this. And I was saying to them, you have a cross on the wall and you supposedly believe in Jesus, but then you would cheat like that, you know. And I was only like nine or something, you know. It's like it was very important to me to be. To be honest and to actually live what I learned. So. Yeah, and that just. And like, there's like a funny story from my childhood that probably my neighbors thought I was really strange, and I now realize how strange that was. But I always knew that the bad in the world came from Satan, right? So I had this idea I could kill him and then there would be no more bad, you know. So I'm telling my friends. Yeah, I was telling my friend, we will just close all the holes in our room and everything that he could get into because I knew he was a spirit. And then we will yell at each other and he will be there and then we can kill him. I don't know. It doesn't really make sense.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] With what weapon?

Ana Reading [00:22:18] Well, we were using towels, you know, so it's child's large. But my. The parents of that other child must have thought we were really strange. The Mormons. But it was just my own strange ideas. I had to realize I couldn't kill Satan.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Right. Bummer.

Ana Reading [00:22:38] Yeah, that would have been a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay, what else? Tell us more about your childhood.

Ana Reading [00:22:46] Yeah, well, I think that that's about it, about the childhood. But maybe as I was getting older, older, it got more difficult, you know, to be a member. Was more apparent that we were different, you know, that we didn't drink alcohol and they were like some parents of some friends that we were there. And we were relatively young, I don't know, 12, maybe 13. And they wanted us all to drink some wine. And they almost forced me and, you know, I then went and poured it into a plant and stuff. And, you know, so it became more and more obvious that we were different. And it's like as I went into high school, that's, I think, when it really became more apparent that we are strange, let's put it like that.

Swiss Religious and Cultural Context

John Dehlin [00:23:41] What was the predominant religion in Bern at the time you were growing up?

Ana Reading [00:23:47] Secularism.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Okay.

Ana Reading [00:23:49] So, yeah, yeah. Most of my friends did not really believe anything, you know, or just superficially. Maybe they were, you know, they were Protestant, but they didn't really go to church. They didn't really believe, you know. So, yeah, most people, and especially in high school religion was. I didn't have any friends that were religious.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] And did people have a stereotype or a perception of Mormons? Have the. Had the Osmonds swept the globe yet? Like, what was the.

Guest 1 [00:24:20] More.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] What was Mormonism even in this. The Baron Switzerland Zeitgeist,

Ana Reading [00:24:26] somewhat, You know, they were like lots. I mean, they know polygamy. I know that was always the first thing. Oh, so your father has many wives? You know, in the case of did

John Dehlin [00:24:35] I mean, he kind of did, yeah,

Ana Reading [00:24:38] sequentially, but still yeah, but. Or they would say, oh, you know, are you in a cult? Do you have to do the things that your leaders tell you? You know, they were like other stories of cults going around, you know, and there was once a person asked me if there was like a tunnel from the Swiss Temple all the way through to the Salt Lake Temple, you know, so there were some weird myths going around. It was obviously some kind of a weird religion. I remember one of my teachers in junior high school, I had written an essay about Joseph Smith and his. His death, his martyrdom, as I put it in the story. And he then pulled me out afterwards and he said, you realize that this whole religion stands on very shaky ground. And now I actually agree with him. But anyway, I, of course, you know, was very upset by this. You know, I thought, how can he say something like this? And I was extremely offended. And yeah, I didn't let.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] That's probably inappropriate for a teacher to tell a student, right?

Ana Reading [00:25:45] It is. It is just like that, you know, when I'm just a child, you know, and I don't know how to defend myself. And, you know, there was also, like, teachers that would say in class that Jesus was just a. A fairy tale figure, you know, so that kind of thing you can't probably imagine in America. But it was like it was normal for most teachers to be atheists or non believers, at least.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] That's probably different than the American Mormon experience because most American Mormon kids would probably have had Christian teachers.

Ana Reading [00:26:24] Right. So I had this strange double feeling of. On the one hand, I felt like I was really weird and I never quite fit, but on the other hand, I felt like I was special, you know, I was chosen. You know, I was the one. One of the few that had the truth, you know, and so it kind of gave me this. This positive feeling as well, besides feeling weird, you know, that's.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] That's part of the power of Mormonism. You feel. You feel set off from the world. It's sort of like not of the world. I remember that being a seminary theme when I was growing up, you know, in. But not of. I'm already losing it. What is it in the world, but not of the world?

Ana Reading [00:27:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] But also chosen.

Ana Reading [00:27:12] Right, right. And so I try.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] You get the persecution that makes you double down in your commitment because you feel extra special and the persecution becomes evidence of your specialness. Right?

Ana Reading [00:27:27] Yes, exactly. And I would read those words of Jesus, you know, that if you have. If you have been persecuted in my name, you know, then I forgot what the promise Is. But anyway, it meant something, you know, and if people would laugh about it, then it meant that I was valiant, you know, So I kind of was trying to be this uber Mormon really. You know, I read all the scriptures, like, including the Old Testament by the age of 14, you know.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Precocious.

Ana Reading [00:28:03] Yes, I was a precocious child, you know, and I was the one in our family also that would like, you know, tell them to have family home evenings or scripture study and prayer and stuff. And my parents were the ones that would be reluctant because, I don't know, they maybe felt it was too much work. But so, yeah, I was really, really. And I remember from a very young age, my greatest desire was to be a good person, you know, so. To be worthy, to be like Jesus kind of thing, you know, so that. That was really strong. And still I felt like, because my family was a bit on the outside, you know, my father was often sick. He became more and more sick and couldn't go to church a lot of times. And he had been excommunicated and he was a bit weird and my mother was very timid and all this, you know. So I felt like I had to prove, you know, to the other members that I was a good member. And so. And then as a woman also, I felt a bit second class because as I was reading the scriptures, there were no women, you know, hardly any. So, you know, where was the female equivalent of Nephi or Moroni or. Or even Joseph Smith? You know, I couldn't. I couldn't find any. I mean, Emma obviously had been a bad person. At least that's how I was taught, you know, so it's like, it was very difficult to feel like I was of equal value. And so I remember, like, when I was about 15, maybe 16, present Monson, he was an apostle, then came to Switzerland and just maybe a year or two before President Benson had been here. And that's when the Berne stake, or it was a district, was made a stake. And President Benson was here. And I shook his hand, but he didn't even look at me. So I was extremely disappointed by that. And then when President Monson came, I wanted to. He wasn't the prophet yet, he was an apostle. I really wanted to shake his hand again because I felt like I was just not important if I died, you know, Jesus would not even pay me any attention, you know, and you'd be saying, hi, Anna, and oh, there's Nephi. Bye, you know, that's how I felt. And so this was really important to Me that Elder Monson would see or President Monson would see me. And I prayed about it and I saw was in the choir. And then he gave a talk, and this is like one of my fave stories. He gave a talk about shaking hands. You know, one of his famous talks about all the kids hands he shook. I think in Hawaii or somewhere, they had had faith that he would shake their hands.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:31:11] And I was thinking, oh, no, you know, I don't have enough faith. You won't shake mine. But make a long story short, he did shake my hand and he did see me, and he told me I had beautiful eyes and a beautiful smile. And it was like it meant so much to me. It was like Heavenly Father saying that to me. So of course, I loved as a monsoon for many years, dearly because of that. And so it was like. So that was like one of the special stories for me as a young person.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] You know, I really relate to that as well. I grew up in Houston, so the prophets and apostles were just those people you saw during general conference, but they were kind of the equivalent of heroes. And I remember when President Benson was my cousin, but I never knew him. He's a distant cousin. But when he came to Houston for an area conference and I got to ride in the car with him and shake his hand, it was like I'd met Jesus. I mean, not quite, but I mean, it was the closest thing I could have felt to feeling like I had met a divine being, you know, was a Mormon general authority. Even growing up in Texas, I felt the same wonder.

Ana Reading [00:32:29] And for me, it really was as if Heavenly Father had told me, no, you do matter. You know, that kind of. That kind of thing. And when I was about 16. Should I already tell how I got.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Let me just ask a quick question. What was feminism like in Switzerland at the time? In other words, were women working? Would there have been a feminist awakening such that that would have informed why you felt left out or noticed that there weren't women leaders or prophets? Was Switzerland maybe more progressive in terms of feminism than maybe the United States would have been in the 70s?

Ana Reading [00:33:08] Oh, not at all. You know, that's the sad thing. You know, Switzerland didn't get the vote for women until like 73 or something. I mean, embarrassingly late, you know, and then my own mother was just quite the opposite of a feminist. You know, she never worked. She could not speak up to my dad at all. I think it was more something in me, you know, and it's like when my father would say to Me, my father thought I was intelligent, you know, and then he would say, well, you know, you're really intelligent. I think you'll make a great nurse. And I would say, you mean doctor, you know, or he would say, you'll make a great secretary. And I would say, you mean boss, you know.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] That was just you? That was just you?

Ana Reading [00:33:57] Yeah, it was just me, you know, and it. I mean, not as I am now, but there was always this. And I could see that my mother was like, under my father's rule, you know, And I would be the one that would defend her, and I would be the one that would speak up to my dad, and I would say, no, you know, And I remember asking him about polygamy as a young. I said, this makes no sense. And he said, well, you know, in heaven, it will all work out. Heavenly Father loves us and things will work out. But that just didn't, you know, I said, but it's not making sense now. It's unfair to women. So, no, Switzerland was not particularly forward in that. I think America is more progressive.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] Got it. Okay. You were a natural born feminist, I guess.

Ana Reading [00:34:52] I guess it's just because I'm a woman, I want it to be of equal value with a man, you know, and so it just seemed to make sense to me. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] All right. So how does your story progress?

Ana Reading [00:35:06] Well, yeah, When I was 16, I had my best friend in school. She started to investigate the church. I don't remember how that came about, but she did. And so we had the missionaries over and we had her there, and she had a lot of questions for them. And to make a long story short, she did not join the church. In fact, she was not convinced at all. But this caused me to think, you know, do I even know if it's true? So what they had told her Moroni's promise. I took it to heart and I decided to. To put it to the test, you know, And I remember it took me about half a year of every day. I prayed and I would read and I would ask. And finally I felt that I really got this huge answer. And that's probably why I've hung on for so long. But it was like. It was actually as I was reading Jacob too, I think.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Yeah, that's a good one.

Ana Reading [00:36:14] Yeah. And it felt like something like, how can you explain it? It's like I had my eyes open and all of a sudden everything made sense. And it was like this overwhelming feeling. And I just felt like, wow, this is all true, you know, and it's really, this. This later, as things got difficult in my life, I always hung on to this, you know, that I had this strong feeling that it was. That it was true. So.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Yeah, that's great.

Ana Reading [00:36:47] Yeah. And then, let's see what else.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] That's more than I got, so. I'm glad you got that.

Ana Reading [00:36:56] I know. Well, sometimes I wish I hadn't because, yeah, things might have gone differently.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Right.

Ana Reading [00:37:05] But I did.

Mormon Adolescence and Teenage Faith

John Dehlin [00:37:07] Okay. So adolescence.

Ana Reading [00:37:10] Yes. I was like, in our ward. It was a very small ward, you know, I don't even know if it was a ward. I think it was a branch, the Bern branch. And I was the only girl in the entire mutual. You know, there were some guys in that age group, but I was the only girl. And so that was kind of hard. Like, the next one in age was like six years younger and one six years older, but there was like nobody in that same age group. But I had a fantastic mutual teacher, leader, whatever. She did everything with me as if there were 20 of us, you know, and she. She was only 11 years older. And she's still one of my best friends. She's still a believing Mormon, but even after everything, she stayed with me. So she's a fantastic person. And so.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] So that means, you know, when I think about my Mormon upbringing, there were ward dances, stake dances, regional dances, all these massive stake youth activities. Did you have any of that in your Swiss Mormon teenage upbringing?

Ana Reading [00:38:24] We did. We did Ward. Just in the ward, there was like, nobody. There were some guys, you know, but they were all older. And so I was a bit shy and, you know, it took a long time and we're now friends, but we weren't friends when I was a teenager. But I didn't really like the dances very much because, I don't know, I had these ugly glasses and I guess I was ugly, you know, I don't know. But I just didn't get asked to dance, you know. So for me, they were more of an ordeal, you know, to go to. To endure, because every time you would be left on the side and it didn't occur to me to go or it just wasn't done, that the girls would ask the guys nowadays, they do it that way and everybody dances or the girls dance together and it's fun, but we didn't have that. So finally I decided to just find another girl that was just like me left out and befriend her. And so then I enjoyed those dances more. But we also had, like, road shows, and those were a lot of fun. And I was really Good at writing plays and stuff. And we won a couple of them that I had written. So that. That was something that I was good at, you know, and we had some fun camps, you know, and as a matter of fact, Philip, that you have already interviewed, I met him in one of those summer camps. And, you know, so that's. That's how we knew each other as teenagers. He was from the other stake, from the Zurich stake, and I was from the Bernd state. But yeah, that's. We kind of became friends during one of those summer. Summer camps. And so I made some. Some really good friends there that have remained friends over the years.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] That's great. Yeah, those are some of my best memories too.

Ana Reading [00:40:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Yeah. Okay, so. So where did that. Oh, so you had your boyfriend.

Ana Reading [00:40:38] Oh, yes. That's at the end of adolescence. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Okay, keep going.

Ana Reading [00:40:45] Yeah. Like I said in the school, I was a little bit an outsider. I never got to go to their snow camps because my father was afraid of bad influence and all this.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] What's a snow camp? What does that mean?

Ana Reading [00:41:01] That just means skiing camp. I don't know what you would call it in English.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Schools did that. They sponsored.

Ana Reading [00:41:06] Yes, schools did that every year. And I never got to go, which means I don't know know how to speak. That's my father's fault.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] That's outrageous.

Ana Reading [00:41:14] That's terrible. Yeah. I did learn later, like when I was 34 with my kids, but it was a bit late. It was a bit late to overcome the fear. But, yeah, so I wasn't allowed to go there. And so I was a bit on the outside in my class. But I decided at some point to win their friendships because I started to see that these were really good people and that my dad was wrong about them all being drug addicts and, you know, bad people. And so I became. I actually got contacts that helped a lot. And I started to just hang out with them. And I became good friends with several people in my class. I became popular. And there was this one guy in particular that I got to know better and better. And yeah, we fell in love. And this was just the last year, just before graduation. And what I really liked. Well, for one thing, I found out there were lots of really good people outside of the church. You know, he was like a Fanta or he probably still is a really good person, but he was like also praying. He was reading in the Bible. I had no idea there were other people that did this in this class, you know, and he never drank or smoked or anything like that. And we could talk about everything. And he really respected my views and my thoughts. And so, yeah, we fell in love. And then he was though, is a Spanish guy. And his plan was after graduation to go back to Spain. His family had already moved down there, so he was only by himself here. And then he was going to join. And so my plan was to go with him, but my father felt I should ask the bishop. And I went and asked the bishop and the bishop said, oh, no, you shouldn't really go with your boyfriend to Spain. It's not safe. And he told me this story about, you know, I think it's from President Kimball, where when you drive a car down a dangerous mountain road, you know, you don't want to drive to the edge. You know, you want to drive right down the middle. And me going to Spain compared to driving on the edge. So I told him I couldn't go with him. And he told me years later that that was the moment when he felt I was in. In the hands of some kind of a cult where a bishop could tell me whether I could go on vacation or not with my boyfriend. And that's when he lost all interest in Mormonism. But he didn't tell me that then. And I thought, you know, I was being good and I was sacrificing what I really wanted to do for Jesus and all this, you know, and I didn't go. And that's probably one of my biggest regrets I have in life. Well, not so much anymore, but it was for a long time. Yeah. But then we started writing and I thought for sure he would join the church. And he read the entire Book of Mormon and it's very intelligent guy. And he sent me back 300 questions about the Book of Mormon.

Guest 1 [00:44:44] Whoa.

Ana Reading [00:44:45] Yeah. And there was stuff in there like, there was no steel at that time in America. There were no horses, there were no wheels. All this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Was he like reading B H Roberts? I mean, how did he think of all this?

Ana Reading [00:44:58] I have no idea how. I don't know. And he doesn't recall it. I've asked him how did he come up with. I think he came up with this stuff on his own because he's very well read and. Or maybe he did find this somewhere from somebody. But this was like, I guess the Tanner's.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] The Tanner stuff would have been out by then.

Ana Reading [00:45:18] Yeah. But there was no Internet. How would he have had that in 1984? So of course I dismissed all that. You know, I didn't even look at it. And I thought this was just another Opinion. And it was. I actually felt at the time there must be an answer to all these questions. I just don't know it, you know, So I didn't really take it seriously. And so, yeah, he. Then he broke up with me, and he didn't really explain it, but years later, he said it was because he could see I was so indoctrinated that I wasn't gonna move from that, you know, and he realized that we would not work out together because of that. When I found out about that later, that that was for me, it was very hard. I thought, yeah. Had I not been so. But anyway, I had a really, really hard time with this. And I think this is the first time where I almost lost my faith after he broke up with me.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] How did you make the connection between that and your faith?

Ana Reading [00:46:30] Well, I had, for example, another friend in the same ward. There was actually finally another girl. She was from a family that worked at the embassy, the Mexican family. And she had been very, you know, on and off, inactive. I knew that she stole and she shoplifted, basically. She did all sorts of things. She didn't really care about the church. But then she had a boyfriend. He took the discussions and he joined the church. And I was so upset with God. I said, how is this fair? I have been nothing but faithful. I've done everything. And I asked only one thing from you, that this boyfriend of mine would join the church, you know, and instead, he broke up with me. And this other guy just joined the church. And that seemed so, so unfair. And plus, I started to think about all the things he had said, you know, the questions he had had. And I really went down into an existential crisis. I was starting to read Nietzsche and Sark and Kamu and all that stuff

John Dehlin [00:47:40] for you English Americans that don't understand the true pronunciations.

Ana Reading [00:47:45] Oh, okay. Sorry. Yeah. And so I really, really was very desperate. But I had nobody since this boyfriend had left me, right? I had nobody outside the church that I could turn to or that could help me. And so I had only one way of dealing with all this, and this was turning back to the church. You know, that was my only way of survival. And so I decided I wanted to go to byu. I thought, I never want to date another non Mormon. I'm done with that pain, you know, I'm gonna go to BYU and find a husband there. But I prayed that God would show me what I should do. And I read this, this quote that said, you have to do what God wants you to do when he wants to when he wants you to do it and how he wants you to do it. I thought, okay. And then I went to the bishop to get him to sign my code of honor thing. And he looked at me and he says, I think you should go on a mission. And in that moment, I thought, oh, that's what God wants me to do. And I said, okay. And I decided to go on a mission just like that, you know, and

John Dehlin [00:49:04] you mentioned your outline, but you did mention in your outline that you were suicidal about this breakup of this relationship.

Ana Reading [00:49:11] I was. I was. I was standing many times, like, at the. At the train tracks and thinking it would be just so easy. I'll just. But, you know, I was so sure there was an afterlife. I thought, it's not going to bring me anything to kill myself. I'll just continue, and then it'll be worse because I will have done this terrible thing. So in a way that kept me actually that much faith I had that I just was sure it was going on afterwards, so. And when I turned back to faith, like, I turned back, it was literally. I don't know if you know that story from Kierkegaard where he said how he gained his faith. He said it was like a leap of faith.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:49:58] And that's how it was with me. And I made that leap that time. This time, not. But that time. And I said, I want to believe. And I was able to fully believe again. It was really strange. And that's. And then, you know, when that bishop said, you should go on a mission, it just felt so right. That's what God wants me to do.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest 1 [00:51:02] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making taking There is a love for the taking it's all right this girls don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lines are drawn Friends of you all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame disbelieves It says who you want to be but there is a wiser part of you I know you feel it.

Serving a Mission and Its Effects

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1041

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Let me just ask, you know, you didn't come from a family of high status, of wealth, of high education. Do you feel like your upbringing was of a higher quality because of your relationship with the church? Do you feel like the church kind of upgraded what otherwise might have not been a great, you know, a great childhood or adolescence?

Ana Reading [00:01:19] I think so, yes. Because I associated with people that were, you know, educated and stuff. We had some people in the ward in Bernd that had university degrees, you know, that I looked up to that. I felt like that's what I want to become. And maybe if I had not had that, you know, where would I have seen exam? I might still have made it. That's hard to know, you know, but I think the church gave me this, this ambition, you know, or this, this drive to make more out of myself

John Dehlin [00:01:55] and to be good, righteous. Right, yeah. And even when you were suicidal, it gave you a reason to live.

Ana Reading [00:02:02] Exactly. And it gave me something to turn

John Dehlin [00:02:05] to again when you needed comfort.

Ana Reading [00:02:07] Right, right. And the mission, in a way, was the best thing for me then. It really helped me heal. I mean, I'd had two other boyfriends in the meantime. None of that had helped. You know, it just was always like, ah, that's not how this guy was. And you know, it just was no help. But going on a mission, it like took the focus away from me and put it out onto serving others. And that really helped.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Yeah. For as much as, you know, for those who have left the church or who are struggling with the church, for as much anger and frustration as we might have, if we're being objective and kind of clear eyed, we have to acknowledge that Mormonism causes pain and suffering for some, but it also does great things for people. It's both. And it's sometimes to hold that ambiguity that it does both. It harms and it also heals and helps. That's just a reality that we have to admit if we're going to be honest and objective.

Ana Reading [00:03:14] Right. And this is an important thing, you know, because if we just say it's all bad, then we're binary again. Before it was all good, and now it's all bad. But actually it's much more complicated. You know, there's many wonderful things about just how I look at it now. It just happens to not be true, you know, and. But, you know, for me, I think I am glad I had it. It also gave my mother something. It gave her support, you know, in a very difficult marriage. My father then was like the last 15 years of his life. He was sick, you know, and she had the church helping, supporting them. And it gave me examples of what good family life looked like, you know, so. And community and friends, like this mutual teacher or president or whatever you want to call her, that became a really good friend and still is.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:04:16] So.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] All right. So is the mission next?

Ana Reading [00:04:19] Yes. Yes, the mission is next. So interesting is that this ex boyfriend in Spain, we still kept loosely in contact, and just as I had decided to go on a mission, he told me he was now an atheist. So we had gone, like, in two different directions. So, yes, I went.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] I'm just going to say that for those who experience a faith crisis, who had adolescent or young adult love that didn't work out in relation to the church for some reason, that is a very common and predictable source of eventual angst and pain and suffering. Because, you know, no matter who you marry, you're going to experience a lessening of the joy and the fulfillment of that relationship. Then maybe during the courtship years, you're going to have pain and struggle and difficulty, and it's so hard. And we'll get to this, I'm sure, when you go through your faith crisis. But it's so hard when you're going through a tough marriage and a faith crisis to then look back and go, I once had the love of my life and lost it because of the church. It ends up haunting a lot of people.

Ana Reading [00:05:42] Right. And you think everything would have been better. And this may be completely wrong, and you even rationally know it's wrong, but emotionally, you know, you feel like had I not had this faith in this stuff that's now turning out to be not true, you know, I could have had this relationship, you know, and it could have run its course, you know, but then it would have been more natural if it had broken up, you know?

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Right.

Ana Reading [00:06:11] But, yeah, so that. That continued to haunt me basically for many years. But at first I was on my mission where it didn't haunt me during that time. Yes. And I went to the temple and it was kind of interesting, my temple, I actually loved it, you know, and I know a lot of people have a hard time the first time, but I loved it, you know, I thought, wow, you know, I didn't understand anything, you know, and it frightened me. I went in 89. No, no, no, no. 87. So I went with the punishment through.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] And the penalties.

Ana Reading [00:06:52] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] And the death and the, you know, oaths and the everything.

Ana Reading [00:06:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Barbaric kind of stuff that's been removed.

Ana Reading [00:07:00] And also the old way of doing the washings and anointings.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] Right. With the poncho.

Ana Reading [00:07:11] That was the sides open underneath your naked.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Touched. Nakedly. Touch you with oil nakedly.

Ana Reading [00:07:18] Yeah, right. And the funny thing is, none of that bothered me. You know, the only thing I was worried about was Satan saying, you know, if you don't keep everything here, you know, you're under my power. So I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. How do I avoid this?

John Dehlin [00:07:34] You know that guy you tried to kill? He comes back.

Ana Reading [00:07:37] Right, right. He did. He did. And that frightened me. I remember. But other than that, you know, I liked it. And I also did not see. Well, what did bother me from relatively the beginning is that Eve was silent, you know, that she didn't speak. And she seemed to be sort of just this attachment to Adam that did bother me from relatively the beginning. And I was. I continued to be more and more upset by this, but at the very first, not so much. So then I went to Ireland on my mission, and I was in the MTC in London, and that is quite a different experience. So this was like 80. 87. Yes, 87. January of 87. And there were, like, only 32 missionaries there at the MTC. 16 sisters and 16 elders. And we were taught by the mission president and his wife. So that was kind of cool. And there was a guy in the MTC that proposed to me, which was,

John Dehlin [00:08:53] yeah, hey, you're not supposed to be doing that.

Ana Reading [00:08:56] I know. And the thing is, you know, the way he did it was like on the last day before we were going, and he was telling me that he had seen me in a vision and he knew that I was supposed to be for him and all this. And like, the entire two weeks or three weeks that we had been there, he had already shown that he really liked me, and everybody knew it, and it was an embarrassment of no end to me. Yeah. So. And he went to England and I went to Ireland and. But he wrote me his entire mission. And, you know, I kept thinking, and this is like one of Those things in the church too. Sometimes I kept wondering, should I really marry him? If he's had a vision, you know, maybe I should, and all that kind of thing. But anyway, so on. On my mission, I am. Ireland is very Catholic, obviously, you know, especially the south. In the north, it's not. It was like all one mission, the entire island. So Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Now it's different, I think. But at that time, it was one mission. And in the north, there were, like, many different religions. Like, there were Methodists and Presbyterians and all these religions that I thought exist anymore. I only knew them from Joseph Smith's story. And of course, they're still really big, but I didn't realize that. And people in Ireland are very religious. And so this was, like, already something really new to me. And they loved talking about religion, so we could always have these really great discussions. And, like, I was so convinced. I was so sure. Just shows. I do think that going on a mission really convinces yourself the most, because you're constantly saying how much you know that this is true, etc. That it kind of reinforces that in your head.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] We kind of know that that's the effect of the mission, because we know now in 2019, that proselyte is losing its effectiveness, that the missionary efforts, by and large, are really not doing much to increase the growth of the church other than in these developed countries. But the church keeps investing in it because it's the way to lock the members in. You get them on missions early, as young as possible, and then get them married. And the church knows that's the best way to secure their membership for hopefully a lifetime.

Ana Reading [00:11:40] Right? Well, it worked for me for a long time. Like, I was telling one guy, you know, I know you will find nothing wrong with this church. I mean, if you find anything, let me know and I will. I will leave it. But I was so convinced there's, like, nothing wrong. So, yeah, my first zone leader I had, he. I remember him telling me one day we talked about polygamy again, and he was telling me, well, you don't really believe in this. You need to go home and get a testimony of it. And he actually gave me, like, the challenge to go home, read Doctrine Covenants 132, pray about it, and get a testimony of polygamy. I went home, I read 132 and did not get a testimony.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Oh.

Ana Reading [00:12:32] I came back and I said, well, this doesn't convince me, you know, because not everybody has. Seems to be just for a few. And if it were for everybody, Adam would have had several wives and not just Steve, you know. And plus, in the Book of Mormon times, there was no polygamy. And see, you know, to me, that was the end of it. It's not an eternal principle. And it was funny because I just stopped believing in it, you know, I mean, I never really believed in it, but I didn't even. I know, for me, I kind of had squared it away that way. Yeah. So. And even on, I love being a missionary and I try to be like, of course, again, a super good missionary. And like, I didn't like this idea that the sister missionaries somehow were less, you know, like there seemed to be like some sister missionaries that felt like, oh, we don't have to work as hard as the men, you know, because we are women. And I would be like, what, what's this? You know, and so I got this reputation that I was really hard working. And we had then a new mission president. He was a. He was a young man, well in his 40s, and he had been a businessman, and he brought sort of this business attitude to the mission. And he did something that he called the rod of iron. And that meant you had to have so many first discussions and so many. I forgot all the things that you had to do. And then two baptisms, and then you became Rod of Iron. And of course, it was like a

John Dehlin [00:14:11] label or a title that you could get.

Ana Reading [00:14:13] Exactly. And even had a scarf or a pin for it. And of course, I was among the first to get this. And I'm a bit ashamed of this now because, you know, it's like I totally bought into this ambition. And I would like teach first discussions on the doorstep, you know, it was just about having enough first discussions. And I lost a bit the spirit of it, you know, in this ambition to be just as good as the elders, you know. And like, there would be sometimes, you know, you would hear stuff like I would say, I would like to be a district leader or zone leader. And then, you know, sometimes you're one

John Dehlin [00:14:55] of those troublemaking, budding feminist missionaries. I can.

Ana Reading [00:15:00] I guess.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] And the patriarchal elders were super annoyed with you, how you always had to fight for female equality. What a dragon.

Ana Reading [00:15:10] Exactly. And they would tell me I would never take orders from a sister. And there were those who would say, you know, why aren't you at home and have children? Like, my sister is your age and she already has three children, you know, and that was supposed to be some kind of an ideal. And of course, you know, I somehow had Failed because I hadn't found a husband. So I started saying that I had so many proposals that I couldn't decide, you know, So I went on a mission to avoid all of them. But, yeah, so it's like. But generally, I really love my mission, and I did have, you know, several baptisms, and I made some really good friends and two of which might be listening at some point. So shout out to Vaughn and shout out to Juha.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] Oh, Juha was on your mission in Ireland?

Ana Reading [00:16:01] Yes, he was my district leader and my zone leader.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Juha is another one of my favorite Mormons. He's from Finland, right?

Ana Reading [00:16:08] Yes, he is. And Von was companions with Juha. Yeah, they're really great people. And other people that I met there, you know, just have also become lifelong friends.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Hey, are you able to do a Irish accent? Are you able to speak with an Irish accent?

Ana Reading [00:16:31] Oh, my gosh, no. No, I could right after my mission, and I said stuff like washing up liquid and jumper and stuff like that, but I have lost it. I can do one sentence in Irish if you want.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] All right, go for it.

Ana Reading [00:16:46] Belli anfer na k nos me dog na broike.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] What is that?

Ana Reading [00:16:50] If anyone understands Gaelic, I probably totally butchered it, but it's supposed to mean the man who went abroad to sell shoes. Okay, a very useful sentence. Took me forever to learn it, but I never forgot it again. Yeah, Irish was not really spoken, you know.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] No, I just. The Irish accent in English.

Ana Reading [00:17:12] Yes, I know. And I can only still say a wee bit. No, I. You know, and plus, I was in many different areas, and they're all different, you know, so, like, Limerick has a different accent than Bangor or Dublin or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Got it. Okay.

Ana Reading [00:17:31] What a great mission. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] That's so great. Yeah, I bet you're a great missionary. I bet you were insufferable. I bet. For the missionaries who wanted. For the sister missionaries who wanted to be slackers, I bet you were insufferable.

Ana Reading [00:17:46] That's true. Well, one companion that I had, she said, well, I heard you were like a working horse. I said, well, that's maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but I did work hard. But at the same time, you know, I was never one of those people that had to keep every and last rule because I felt it was always. I felt it's much more important to keep the higher law. So of course, I was keeping the rules when I felt like they made sense, you know? But, for example, if we were teaching somebody and it was a really good conversation, I wouldn't say, well, it's 9:30, we need to leave, or something like this, you know, or like one time somebody rang at our doorbell practically in the middle of the night, and it was a woman and she was suicidal. It was a person we had taught, and she wanted to kill herself that night, you know, and she was like half drunk, and there was no way we would let her go away, you know, so we let her come in and we let her stay in our house. And finally she slept. And when we were going out in the morning, she was still sleeping. And when we came back, she had stolen half of our stuff. But, you know, but I didn't feel bad about it at all because I felt like we had helped her at this point. That was much more important. And in fact, she had just stolen some of our dresses. So we went by her place and we brought her some other things as well. We said, oh, you forgot these things. And we brought her a coat, a really nice coat and some other things.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] So you're willing to put the spirit of the law over the letter of the law?

Ana Reading [00:19:25] Yes. And I've always felt that that's just what Jesus taught, you know, I never understood those people that thought, you know, if you keep every last rule in the White Book, that's when you will have success. I think that makes no sense.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] And you also write in your outline that you were Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon I in 2019. I'm a little bit torn because on the one hand, so many of his teachings were awful. I'm glad he's kind of disappeared from Mormon discourse. But on the other hand, that was like our. That was. That was the missionary Mormon identity in the 1980s. It was Bruce Armorconko.

Ana Reading [00:20:03] I know. And now we realize. Now we realized he was false. False. Did you ever hear that talk of his where he does that? The seven deadly heresies?

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:20:17] Oh, my gosh. We. In fact, we had some missionaries in our mission that could really imitate him fantastically. I can't do it as well, but some really could. And we finally got the direction from the mission president not to imitate Bruce R. McConkie anymore. Yeah. But my father. I didn't realize it at the time, of course, I just thought it was the gospel. But I now realize, looking back, that my father, he had had Mormon stories. He had read it and that Mormon doctrine. Not Mormon, Mormon doctrine. Mormon doctrine. Oh, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] I love it.

Ana Reading [00:20:49] That was a Freudian slip. No, Mormon doctrine. Of course. Yeah. And he had internalized this and he was teaching blood atonement to me, you know, and I didn't realize that that's what it was. He. I think he even believed in. I don't even know if that's in Mormon doctrine, but I think he even believed in the Adam God theory. Theory. And he was teaching me stuff about, you know, black people being descendants of or being from that one third in heaven that was undecided, you know, horrible stuff when I think about it now. But that's. That's what he taught me. I thought that that's what the doctrine was.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] That's the gospel. It's the doctrine.

Ana Reading [00:21:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] And doctrine mattered back then.

Ana Reading [00:21:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Nowadays, in 2019, other than like, God lives, Jesus is the Christ, the atonement, priesthood and authority, there isn't much doctrine that seems to matter.

Ana Reading [00:21:49] Exactly. And, you know, somebody that grew up with doctrine still, that. That is just really bothered by this. To me, you can't just change it and then say, well, it was always like this. But yeah, so, yeah, I had. I think I probably also had a kind of a black white view of the gospel very much. You know, that's. That's how it was taught. It was either true or not true. You know, I like. It was like very black and white.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] Yep. We. We came by it honestly.

Ana Reading [00:22:21] Yes, yes. And so even if you didn't like it, that's just how the truth was, you know, I mean, I didn't like the things about black people, but, you know, that's how it was. At least that's what I thought, you know.

BYU, Languages, and Early Marriage

John Dehlin [00:22:40] All right. So should we talk about byu?

Ana Reading [00:22:44] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Anything else about your mission you want to mention?

Ana Reading [00:22:48] No. I think

John Dehlin [00:22:51] you served one and a half years, right? One and a half, yes.

Ana Reading [00:22:55] And I extended. And I wanted to extend even more. I had a really hard time going home. I liked it so much. I felt like it was the most meaningful thing I had ever done. That's really how I felt about it. And. Yeah. And I don't. I don't regret my mission. It was a really good experience. And so, yeah, I came home and I decided on my mission that I would go to byu. And I was able. One of my companions, she was able to be my sort of my donor. You kind of need somebody that gives you financial backing to be able to go.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] What do you mean? It was just expensive?

Ana Reading [00:23:38] Well, in case I would get impoverished or something, I had to have somebody that was like a sponsor or something. I don't know the exact word anymore for it. Plus I had to pass a test, an English Test and I passed that. And yeah, I went, like, shortly after. So I came home in the summer of 87. 88. No, 87. So it was actually before that, 86.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] So we started at BYU the same semester.

Ana Reading [00:24:12] Yes, yes, we must have. So in January I started. Okay, so a little bit later.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] January of 87 or January of 88?

Ana Reading [00:24:24] 88, I think. 88.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Okay. Were you in the dorms?

Ana Reading [00:24:31] I was at first in something that I forgot what it was called. And then right after my second semester, and I was in the German House. I was the head resident of the German House.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] I remember the German House.

Ana Reading [00:24:45] Yes. And of course, that was a great thing for me because I could live for free and I could eat for free.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Oh, you were an ra, okay.

Ana Reading [00:24:55] Yes, yes. Because I was the head resident. I just had to speak German, which was easy for me. And so, yeah, that was.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] You haven't said this. What languages do you speak? You haven't told our listeners this.

Ana Reading [00:25:05] Oh, okay. Well, my native language is Swiss, German and German, and those are slightly different. They're slightly different. They're apparently as different as Spanish and Portuguese.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Yeah, so that's quite different.

Ana Reading [00:25:19] But all Swiss speak both, you know, because we function that way. All official things are in German and inofficial things are in Swiss German, and so. And then French and English and Spanish.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] That's a lot.

Ana Reading [00:25:35] Spanish I learned later. I started at BYU and I learned later. So at this point, I didn't speak today. Okay, so, yeah, so then now I kind of lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] You're about to meet Bill, I think.

Ana Reading [00:25:51] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] You mentioned that your bishop wanted you to stay in Switzerland. Did you tell that story?

Ana Reading [00:25:58] Yes, exactly. I was going to tell that story. Yes. When I decided to go to byu, I went to my bishop, which was a different bishop than the one before, and I asked him to give me, you know, to sign me the code of honor. And he told me, well, you know, the Brethren are telling us to stay in the countries where we're born. You know, you're not supposed to go there. And I said. Then I said to him, are you going to date me? You know, and he had five children, of course, was married, and he said, oh, if you have enough faith, you'll find somebody. I said, I know everybody in this, and of all those guys, I like exactly two guys, you know, and that's it. I am not going through another non Mormon. And so I just told him, if God doesn't tell me as well that I'm supposed to stay here, I'm going to go.

John Dehlin [00:26:51] That is so cool. You had that level of autonomy and presence and confidence that you weren't going to let some missionary tell you that you were supposed to marry him. You weren't going to let some bishop tell you. That's a real remarkable part about your story, is that in spite of you being embedded in this oppressive patriarchy, you had this confidence or strength or assurance to just discard any of that garbage, patriarchal garbage that didn't seem right to you.

Ana Reading [00:27:25] Yeah, well, I didn't have that yet at 19, you know, or I would have gone with my boyfriend, but to Spain. But I did learn that. I think I learned it from that experience because I regretted it so much. And I thought, had I just done what I wanted to do, no matter what the outcome, at least it would have been my fault, you know, or my decision. And I started to learn that you need to be. You need to be accountable for your own things. You can't defer it out to someone else and say, oh, well, he told me not to do this. And then I'm just angry at him. But I still had to learn that more. I mean, there were still other times when I didn't do that so well, but this time I did. This time I did. And I did actually go back through England to see if I should marry that guy that had asked me to marry him. And we were together, and we actually even got engaged. Because when I was with him, he was telling me again how he knew that God wanted me to marry him and stuff. And while I was with him, it felt okay. But as soon as I was away and when I was over at byu, I realized, no, I don't want to marry that guy. There were several reasons why. One of them was that, for example, he just lied to his mom. We would be out in town, he was supposed to call her, and then he forgot. And when we came home, he just said, oh, I tried to call you, but I couldn't find a telephone booth. And, you know, that kind of thing showed me a lack of character. And so anyway, so then, yeah, in my very first week at byu, I met Bill. And actually one of my companions from the mission, she had a birthday, and she's a twin, and her birthday is the 28th of January, and so is Bill's. And Bill is also a twin. They're both identical twins, and they have the same day as a birthday. And so she invited Bill and his twin brother, and she knew Bill from working in the baptistry in the temple so he came and we started talking, and we hit it off right away. So I met him my very first week, and so I was impressed because he knew so much about Europe. He could speak German and he could speak Spanish. He was studying European studies. And I had sort of this stereotype or this cliche that most Americans know nothing about Europe. And here was a guy that was very knowledgeable, and so that really impressed me. And he was going to the temple every week. That impressed me. He was very reliable. He was intelligent. He had all these things. And he came from this really great family. And that was something that was really important to me because I had this idea because my family said I need to marry a guy with a great family. So that we know together how to have a good family was like, one of the things I had come up with. So, yeah. So I thought, this is the guy I'm going to marry. And. Yeah. And I really loved byu. I felt like for the first time, I wasn't an outsider. At first I felt that, but then I realized I was an outsider again because I was Swiss and, you know, I wasn't an American. And plus, a lot of the views at BYU that people held were strange to me anyway, and I felt an outsider in a different way. Yeah. Like, for example, some of the views they had just in general were strange to me, like wanting to make a lot of money, whereas I was interested in getting a good education or just wanting to get married. And, you know, some of the views that were very typical, I guess Mormon culture in Utah were different.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] To me, this would have been right, you know, right at the end of Ronald Reagan's term. This would have been right as George Bush the first was becoming president. And, yeah, there was a lot in the Soviet. You know, the Soviet Union had fallen, the Berlin Wall had come down, or at least would soon thereafter. The Cold War was kind of ending. And so there was a lot of patriotism and a lot of Mormon patriotism. And there still is, of course, but it was very heavy then.

Ana Reading [00:32:14] Yeah. I mean, one of the small things that, to me were really strange is when people would pray for moisture in church.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] They still do that in Cache Valley, they still pray for moisture.

Ana Reading [00:32:25] For a Swiss, that's extremely strange because we have so much rain. You know, we would pray for sun, you know, which nobody did, but, you know, it's like, that was really strange.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] They still do that in cache Valley in 2009.

Ana Reading [00:32:39] I guess it makes sense in Utah, but it's just for us, for me, it was really Strange. But I also was. All of a sudden, I was confronted with this American exceptionalism. You know, it was like, you know, they would talk about the Independence War. No, the Revolutionary War. And I thought, what's that? To me, that was the French Revolution. You know, I mean, the Revolution was the French Revolution. And I never thought of the independence of America as the Revolutionary War. You know, like, things like that that I would encounter in classes or, you know, like, that this was Zion, that this was the Lord's university, you know, that this was the Promised Land. And I had to be so grateful to be there. And I started to, like, resent that a little bit. And sometimes I would make critical comments, and then people would get really upset with me. I didn't have the right, you know, to say something critical because it wasn't my country. I kind of get that. But still, it was. It was something I wasn't. I wasn't used to. And then once. Once we. We were married, you know, they were like also these views that now, you know, I had to ask my husband for things. And when I had a child, it was like, now I should be actually at home with this child and I shouldn't be studying. President Benson had said the women belong in the home. I was told in one class by

John Dehlin [00:34:08] a guy, he gave a really famous general conference talk where he just kind of laid that down over the pulpit.

Ana Reading [00:34:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] That a woman's place is in the home.

Ana Reading [00:34:17] Right. And I was told in classes it

John Dehlin [00:34:19] really swept through BYU as kind of a bold and, for liberals, a controversial statement.

Ana Reading [00:34:26] Yeah. And, you know, but I knew the perfect comeback to that guy. This was, like, in a class. And he said that to me. And I said, well, do you believe in personal revelation? He said, yes. And I said, well, I had the revelation. I should go and finish my degree. Of course, it wasn't really true, but. But it was like a good comeback. It shut him off, you know, but it's like, it made me feel weird. And I did feel guilty for going to school, you know, I did feel guilty. I did. Even though I continued with it, I did think, maybe that's wrong, you know? And as Bill's siblings started to get married and these women stayed at home, you know, I thought maybe. Maybe there's something wrong with me because I did not enjoy just being at home. I love my kids, you know, but I did not enjoy being just at home. I had all these other interests, and I just pursued them. And I thought, maybe that's wrong of me, you know, maybe that's that's bad. But I continued, you know, and I thought, why has God given me these wishes to do other things if he then thinks it's wrong? So this was like a conflict that went on for many years, actually.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] I love your spiritual independence.

Ana Reading [00:35:45] Yeah. But it came at a cost, you know, then I felt always conflicted about it. And. Yeah, when we first got married, we lived in Wymond Terrace. I don't know if you know this.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Oh, yeah, that was. That was the married student housing, basically.

Ana Reading [00:36:02] Exactly, exactly. And I remember our ward had like a hundred visiting teaching, 100% home teaching. They came every month. But I've never been as lonely in my entire church time, ever. You know, it's like we had just gotten married. All our friends were still unmarried. I had no family there. Bill had no family because they lived in Connecticut. And so we were by ourselves, and we would have needed friends, but nobody befriended us. And then, you know, I decided when the visiting teachers came, I would tell them that I was really lonely. And Bill actually had mano as well, just right after we got married. So I was really lonely because he was always sleeping when he wasn't doing his stuff. And so I thought, I'm going to tell these visiting teachers. And they came and they both had a child already, these two women. And they sat there and they talked for 40 minutes about their deliveries. And I wasn't even pregnant. And, you know, it scared me about ever having children. And I didn't dare saying anything. And after 40 minutes, just as they were going out under the, you know, the door, they saying, is there anything we can do for you? And I said, not anymore. And so, yeah, so that kind of was for me, like they. They checked off something on a box, but they didn't really care.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Yeah. And that's. That's kind of weird. You think the loneliest you could ever be, for example, is when you live alone. But I've talked to many married couples who feel the most alone they've ever felt in a loveless marriage. Right. And loneliness is not just being alone. It's sort of how you feel when you're around people in terms of what you expect or hope from those relationships versus what they might fail to deliver. And I think the loneliest sometimes people feel, are when they're surrounded by people, but nobody cares or nobody seems to care.

Married Life, Loneliness, and Church Roles

Ana Reading [00:38:17] Right. Well, plus, you know, Bill and I had a really hard time. We fought all the time in our first year. You know, it was like, I think a lot of these things from my Dysfunctional family came up at that time, you know, it was like, this guy doesn't really want to stay with me for sure, you know. And all this stuff came out in me just being very, very contrary in everything. And I picked a fight at everything. And then Bill got sick, and, you know, it was like all these different factors. We then decided to go to Switzerland for a year, and that helped a lot. I was with my family, you know, I had my friends again, and Bill got to see my country. And so we kind of found, you know, our footing then. And when we went. We stayed one year in Switzerland, then went back to BYU to get our degrees. And at that time, after, I said, I don't want to move into Wyman Terrace anymore, so we moved into Orem, into a regular ward, and that was a lot better. And so I actually enjoyed that. It was like Geneva something ward, but a lot of, you know, workers people, but really nice people. And you had children and you had old people. I mean, the whole spectrum. And I like that a lot better than just all in the same time of life, you know, I didn't enjoy that very much.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Got it. Okay.

Ana Reading [00:39:50] So then we got our degrees in 94, both got a master's. And at this point.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] And by the way, you were oblivious to the September 6th Joyner Brooks Student Review, all the liberal, you know, marching for abortion rights, marching for, you know, assaults of women, you know, take back the night, all that. And students.

Ana Reading [00:40:16] I know, it's terrible.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] You missed all that.

Ana Reading [00:40:20] I did, and I feel terrible. I read Martha Stewart's book years later and everything she describes also, she was like, on the faculty, I think, what was going on at the time. And I thought, how could I be completely oblivious to that, you know? And it's like, maybe I got a little tiny bit, like, abortion and stuff we would discuss, but I just had my own views about it, thinking, you know, that a person should have a choice, that kind of thing. But I still. I think Bill's. Bill's family is relatively strongly Republican and conservative. And I was in. I came into this family and I took over some of those views at first. And except for, like, one time at a family gathering, I told everyone that I was a Democrat, and it wasn't even true. Uh, oh, I wasn't even an American citizen.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] Them fighting words.

Ana Reading [00:41:18] Yeah. I just wanted to see the reaction. And there was like a dead silence. And then one of Bill's brothers said, well, I guess we can have one of those in the family. And so that was kind of then Then I was intrigued, you know, but at that time, it's like what you said, I think, earlier. I mean, I was on a mission. I had children. I was studying. I didn't even have time to really think about other things, you know, So I wasn't very politically interested or, you know, engaged in any of these things because I was so busy. And, yeah, I feel bad now that all of this missed passed by me completely. The only thing I did have was a class with you, Nibley, and Nice. How was that so strange? I was expecting this great thing. I was really looking forward to it. I thought I got in, you know, and then I had never. I never knew what he was talking about.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] It was just kind of gobbledygook, right?

Ana Reading [00:42:25] It really was. And I was.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] And everybody was like, whoa, he's so brilliant. We can't understand a word he's saying.

Ana Reading [00:42:31] That's exactly what it was like. And then there was only one exam. And the exam question I will never forget was, why should I fear and tremble? Yeah, that was the exam question. I thought because of this exam. Yeah, it was really strange. I had no idea what he was talking about. I didn't learn anything in that class except for maybe, you know, that Hugh Nibley wasn't as great as I thought. But, yeah, it was strange. So all of that, anyway, that was going on, completely passed by me. Didn't realize any of it. Yeah. And then we went back to Switzerland in 1994, and that was actually kind of. We had that one year when we had lived in Switzerland. We had said, we're going to go get our degrees and then come and live in Switzerland. But the longer we lived in America, the more I liked it there. And now I actually was comfortable. And I had gotten my master's and I wanted to get a doctorate. And I, you know, I was.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] Did you have career ambitions? And if so, what were they?

Ana Reading [00:43:41] Yeah, I wanted to become a university professor. I wanted to get a doctorate in German literature and then work at a university. That really was my ambition. And I knew if we go back to Switzerland, that won't work, you know, But Bill just felt like that's what we should do. And then I remember we went to the temple and I prayed, and I felt like I got the answer. Follow your husband. And I did. But I was very upset. You know, I was upset about it. I was upset for two years because it's like my career had come to a screeching halt. We came to Switzerland. I did go to university here to find out If I could do a doctoral program here. They told me I was too old. I was 34, you know, and they said, you are already too old. You should already have a PhD by now, and you should be working on your second PhD. I don't know what that's called in English. And I said, well, that's not possible if you have children, you know. And they said, well, that's true. So it's. I guess it's a bit, you know, it discriminates women. They admitted it, you know, at least women that wanted to have children or a family. So then I had to start working for this private school with kids that were very difficult. It was a very difficult school. I was completely overqualified for this job. I started to teach English, you know, at a lower level. And, yeah, I did not enjoy it. And I got kind of depressed because I felt I had always wanted to have a really good career. I guess it was maybe also coming out of this family where nobody had amounted to anything, so to speak, how I felt. And I wanted to have a degree, and I mean, I did, but I wanted to have a degree that was good for something. And. Yeah. But finally, you know, I kind of adapted. I had two more children, and we had had a big house, you know, and I was just really busy with all that. I never quit working, but at this point, we had. I had to work because otherwise we couldn't. We didn't have enough money. But I always felt guilty, you know, and I kept, really. Kept hounding Bill, the poor man, to find a job where he would earn more so that I could be at home like I was supposed to be.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Right.

Ana Reading [00:46:25] But he always told me, you wouldn't be happy, and he was right. Oh, but I thought I needed to do that. I thought it would be the righteous thing, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Yeah, yeah. So you. You ended up having these dreams of, you know, as a bright, capable, talented, educated woman. You had all this potential and capability, and you. You got drawn in. I don't want to say sucked into, but you got drawn into the Mormon dream. That may have not been what your. You would have chosen if you could have had the full range of choices available.

Ana Reading [00:47:10] Yeah, I don't think so. I love my kids, you know, and I love having kids, I have to say, but I might not have had as many, you know. Now, of course, I wouldn't give any of them, naturally, but it's just I was always, like, more of an intellectual, you know. I think I would have really enjoyed university life. And, yeah, I Had to give that up because here in Switzerland you could only be a full time career person. And in that sense, America is more progressive where a woman can actually work and be at home. And here they still have this. Either you are at home with your children or you have a career. Only now it's changing in the last maybe 10 years or so.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Got it.

Ana Reading [00:48:03] So even at my school, I was the only one for a long time. Me and one other that had children, you know, the other women didn't have any. Yeah. And then of course, we were in a small branch, you know. Well, first we were in the barn ward, but which was also small. And then we got sent to Thun and it was a small branch. And of course when it's a small branch, you have to do a lot. So I was like primary president for years and leave society president. And Bill then became the branch president. And he already had a job that was very, very demanding, was working in it. And so I think it was just. And Bill is a very conscientious person, a very, you know, person that really takes his responsibilities seriously. So he started to develop sleeping problems and he got more and more stressed. And then that was stressing me. And then that, you know, was a stress on our relationship. And so I feel like we were in this hamster wheel of just always going, going, going. And I think I kept trying to prove that I was worth something, that I was a good. That we had this good Mormon family, that we were these good people. And Bill just had a really strong sense of duty. And so, yeah, I think our marriage became very stressed under all this.

Returning to Switzerland and Community Life

John Dehlin [00:49:47] It's gotta be hard. Tell me what it's like. Because on the one hand I would think, oh, you're raised in Switzerland, you wanna stay in Switzerland because that's where your family is. That's where you're most comfortable. That's your background, your heritage, your culture. So on the one hand I would think that, but then on the other hand I'd think, oh my gosh, you know, the states and it can be exciting and that's where the church is. But there's also, you know, in some ways, in the 80s, America was viewed as a world leader. I think it's fallen in status a little bit since then. And I don't know if the socioeconomic conditions were better or worse or the employment opportunities. I just imagine there might be a lot of mixed feelings there about having lived in the United States for so many years. And then you're plopped back in Berren which is a beautiful, charming town.

Ana Reading [00:50:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] But it's also, you know, it's different than America. That's all I can say.

Ana Reading [00:50:46] Yeah. And, you know, I had left for, well, with my mission and then America from my early 20s and we returned when I was 30. And so I hadn't actually been on my own or a grown up in Switzerland.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:51:00] And Bill, of course, hadn't. And, you know, this led to all sorts of. I didn't even know how a washer or dryer ran over here. I didn't know how to shop. I didn't know how to do insurance. And Bill didn't either. And he like relied on me doing all of this because I was a Swiss, you know, but I had no clue. And that was really hard. Whereas in America, I don't know, I had developed all this self confidence in America because I was doing an education. I felt very comfortable. I had my own place, you know, I ran my own household. So I had like kind of gained my adulthood in America. And then coming to Switzerland was like being thrown back, you know, to an earlier time. And it was really, really hard. I struggled a lot with that and everything was left to me because, you know, I spoke the language I supposedly knew, but I didn't. We didn't even know how to drive here. You know, neither one of us would know the signs and we would guess at what they meant. And. And plus I had never driven with a stick. You know, we just had all of a sudden a car with a stick. And Bill showed it to me twice in a parking lot. And then off I went on the road. You know, you can imagine I prayed very hard when we came to a red light on a hill, you know, because I couldn't start the car anymore. And, you know, lots of things like this made me feel like incompetent and made me feel like all the old insecurities I'd had, they all came back. And I really struggled with that. And on top of that, like, my career ambitions completely stopped. And then I felt like. I think there was also this sense, I felt like it hadn't really been my choice. We hadn't made this choice together. I just had to follow my husband. And so there was a certain resentment also. This time I did not stand up for myself. I know. And it seemed different when I was on my own. I could just say, okay, I go, I don't care if the bishop says something else, but when you're married, it's not as easy. And what was hard for me, it was Like, I. Many times I said, let's reconsider going back to the States. And he never took that seriously. We never even looked at it seriously. It just kind of. I felt it was like looked at as if, oh, well, yeah, she's having one of her moments again about wanting to go back. It'll pass. And the thing is, eventually it did pass. You know, in a way now I think it was a good thing we came. I really do.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] Sure.

Ana Reading [00:53:48] You know, I reconnected. I was here for my mom. My mom lived with us. My dad died shortly after we came back, and I got to be with him before he died. I reconnected with all these siblings that I mentioned at the very beginning. These two oldest brothers, older sisters from the former marriages that I never even knew. And these things wouldn't have happened had I stayed in the state.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Right.

Ana Reading [00:54:13] So it's a good thing now, but it was very difficult at first. And also another thing is, while I was not engaged in any of these things that you mentioned earlier, byu, we did have some really good intellectual friends. We had great discussions. I had some professors that really opened up my mind. Post modernism and stuff for the first time entered into my consciousness and I felt like something had been opened and I was learning all these new things. And now coming back here and being in a ward where people were more simple, were of a lower level of education and, yeah, we didn't have any intellectual friends anymore. And that's another thing I really, really missed.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Yeah. Because in a small, small ward or branch like in Barron, you're just not going to necessarily get the diversity, the quantity and the diversity of thought that you might get.

Ana Reading [00:55:23] But, you know, especially later when we were in Tum, they may not have been, you know, great intellectual people, but they were really, really good people. And it felt, with time, it felt like a family. So that, you know, that also has to be said. But at first it was really hard after having had all these, you know, academic friends.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] I have to give a shout out to Martine. Martine is a dear friend of mine who grew up in Belgium, joined the church there, and then married a US citizen. And Martine writes, yes, I go home to Belgium and there's so much I don't understand for the same reasons. I was never an adult there, but I did learn to drive a stick shift in Utah.

Ana Reading [00:56:09] She says I might have eventually learned that. Who knows? I'm glad I know how to do that now. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Yeah. Thanks for your comment, Martine. It's always great to have you join Us?

Ana Reading [00:56:25] Yes. I kind of know her through Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] She's great. You gotta meet Martine.

Ana Reading [00:56:29] Yes, I would like to. Next time you come, you have to come visit Switzerland.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Yeah, for sure. Okay. So serving heavily in the church, Bill is branch president and bishop. You've been serving as Relief Society president. Were you young women's president?

Ana Reading [00:56:47] No, for some reason, not. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] But Relief presidency,

Ana Reading [00:56:52] we didn't have a lot of young women, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] And then lots of kids and, you know, the stresses and difficulties of marriage, which is tough for anyone, so.

Ana Reading [00:57:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:57:04] Yeah. And we added some or one couple stresses that we added, and then one that happened that we didn't add. One was we got two foster children, not at the same time, one after the other, and a total of six years. And I don't know why we did this when we already had so much on our plates, but we did it probably also out of this sense of one should serve, one should do something important and good. And especially the first one was really, really hard. And at the end of this time, I almost had a nervous breakdown because it was so difficult. There was, for the first time, a person that hated me, and, yeah, that was really, really hard to bear. Yes. I think at the end, she hated me, and not because I'd done anything bad, but somehow it had gone really bad. I had really tried to give her everything I could, but it wasn't how she wanted it. And then the mother of her boyfriend just kind of poisoned her mind against me, and, yeah, I really think that was hate at the end. And then we have the second, the foster child. Even though I said, I will never do this again, but somebody talked us into it and said, this time you'll have a much easier experience. This one is so easy, you know, it'll be like healing from the other. Well, it was easier in some ways. We're still in good contact, and she still feels like one of us, but she also had a lot of problems and difficulties, and. And so that was really, really difficult as well.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] So what is a nervous breakdown? Kind of. What is that? Like, almost?

Ana Reading [00:59:07] Yeah. The way I was is like, I would come into my home and I would immediately run after work, you know, and I would immediately run to my room and lock myself in and not want to talk to anyone. Not my children, not anyone, because I just couldn't bear this negativity that was in the house with her, and I would break out crying and everything, and I had nightmares, and, you know, it just was a terrible situation. And it continued for quite some time. Afterwards, because I blamed myself. I felt like I should have done it differently. I should have, you know, shown her more love or, you know, even though I really, really tried, now I look at it with more compassion. And the thing was, also, she was put into our home even though she was, like, three years older than our oldest child, and that's never a good idea. So I had no experience with teenagers, and she was 14 and a very difficult teenager, and my oldest was 11. And so later, when. When Liam, my oldest son, went through just normal teenage things like loud music or whatever, I would have, like, this panic come up in me, thinking he was gonna be, like, this girl, and. And I would start crying and stuff, and he would have to comfort me, say, mom, I'm never gonna become like her. Don't worry, you know? And so with time, you know, I got over it. But it was. It was very difficult, and it was kind of a small. Kind of a trauma for me. Wasn't as bad with the second one, but she had a lot of problems in school and with lying and stealing and things like that, and she came from very difficult circumstances, and. Yeah, so that was also difficult.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest 2 [01:01:43] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Calling to to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right these guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new what? When the lions are drawn in front of you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief It says who we want to be but there is a wise part of you I know you feel it too.

The Beginning of Ana's Faith Crisis

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1042

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Does that bring us to the point where you started to have some cracks develop in your faith, or are there other?

Ana Reading [00:00:54] Almost.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Okay, okay.

Ana Reading [00:00:57] Maybe the last thing I went back to school, I got another degree so I could work at a better thing here. So that was an additional thing. And going back to school was maybe the beginning of this crack in my faith because I started to think again and I started to study things again and use my brain more, you know, and also at the same time, maybe just sort of on the. On the side, this is. My mom started to get dementia, and she lived with us, so. And that was also another really difficult stress factor. So there were, like, a lot of different stress factors. And I felt just like more and more that church wasn't giving me all that much. I often felt bored in church. I felt like it was always the same. I felt like I've heard everything. There was like, nothing new being taught. And I felt like I felt exhausted after church, you know, on Sundays and with everything else that there was to do, it just felt like one more thing that needed to be done. Plus, I felt like it was really killing Bill, you know, no pun intended there. But it was just like he was working so hard. And then the church thing, and I think I started to resent. I would say, do you have to go to this priesthood meeting? Is it necessary to go to this? You know? And then he felt like I wasn't supporting him. So then. So this conflict developed. And luckily, at some point, like around 30, just after I come back from the States, I had kind of gotten a different idea of the Gospel. I had read some Martin Luther, and I loved the idea of grace, you know, that Jesus did his atonement for us and we now just love him back, you know, and it's not all about trying to earn points to get into heaven, but it's. It's about loving him, you know, because he's loved us first. And that kind of freed me up a bit, you know, like in classes, in Relief Society, whatever. I would Always stress that. I would always say, you know, we need to see the joy of it and not the big, you know, all this list of things that we need to do. And love is the only really important thing. So that helped me a bit. You know, I would like, not blame myself if I didn't read the scriptures every day or didn't go to the temple once a month.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] And some would say that that's kind of just enlightened Christianity. But if you're raised as a Bruce R. McConkie Mormon, that represents a split, because that's not the type of Mormonism we were raised with.

Ana Reading [00:04:00] Exactly. It was actually a big split step, I think. But it helped. It freed me, you know, to some degree. You know, it's like at least I kind of. I wrote in my journal at that time, I think I'm just gonna do the things that are good for me, you know, and leave out the things that make me feel bad, you know. But still, you know, we were like, we did scripture study every morning. We tried to pray every day. We didn't always manage. We sometimes forgot, but we did all those things. We had family home evening every week. So I still try to do all those things.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Lara, one of our listeners, is relating to you. She writes, I can relate to the cognitive dissonance Anna experienced while trying to balance her personal desires with the perceived guidance from the church. Laura says, I did pursue my master's degree and worked part time while my children were young, but also made many, many career sacrifices for my husband's military career because I thought it was my duty. My husband was as a good man. But we are still married, and we are still married. But we both realize now that I went along with his career goals at the expense of mine, primarily because of statements made by church leaders. Thanks for sharing that, Laura. It's a nice compliment to Anna's story.

Ana Reading [00:05:30] Yes. And I can really relate to this as well. And that's the thing, you know, my husband's a really good man, you know, and he didn't. He tried to be always supportive. And so it's just the way that, you know, we are raised to think about things, you know. So like I said before, when I went back to school, my critical mind started to kick in more. And it was actually just recently I discovered again that in the year 2012, when Mitt Romney was running for. I think it was when he was running for president, I'm not sure. But anyway, he was big on the national news and there was this article in the New Yorker about the Mormons. I don't know if you read it, but I just. I had just recently, you know, downloaded the New Yorker, and I read this article, and I remember this article really shook me. There were three things. It talked about Joseph Smith and, you know, his polygamy and stuff that I knew nothing about. And I was like, what's this? And then it talked about Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre that I had never heard of. What is this? That sounds awful. And then it talked about the church being this big capitalist empire, and that just sat really wrong with me. I thought, the Church of Jesus Christ, a capitalist empire. That's how it's seen by others. And it was not a nasty article at all. You know, it was trying to be a very. It was actually a more or less sympathetic article.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Yeah. Just kind of, here's Learn. Learn about the Mormons, since your next president might be one, you know, you may as well learn a little bit about it.

Ana Reading [00:07:27] And actually, that. The line that hit me the most was, it says, it takes a certain naivety to believe in the tenets of this church. And that just hit me like a ton of bricks, because I felt like that's it, you know, that it does, you know, and it's just like I wrote in my journal at that time, you are naive. You know, and it was like, of course, you know, I tried to argue myself out of that at that time, but that's. That was my first really big crack. And I started to, like, open my eyes and see where I was being naive. And I had a really good friend at school, and we talked about things, and his father was a biologist, and when he asked me, do you believe in evolution? I said, well, not really. And all this could also be creation. He looked at me like I was an alien. And he said, no, you know, intelligent person does not believe in evolution. It's like, it's not a belief. It's a scientific fact. And I said, no. And, you know, and then he gave me all the facts, and I said, oh, okay. And, you know, and I went home with that. And I thought, I need to believe in evolution, or at least I need to realize it's. It's a fact, you know, which was

John Dehlin [00:08:45] one of Bruce Armaconki's seven deadly heresies.

Ana Reading [00:08:48] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:08:50] And then it went on, you know, in church, I started to, like, think about things critically. Noah's story that made no sense. You know, I started to go through it in my head, and nobody seemed to be bothered by it. Even educated people. With university degrees, Maybe they were, but they didn't say anything, you know, and it was like, can you guys really believe this? This is naive. You know, that's what kind of went on in my head. And then stuff like, well, you know, there's no justice in this world at all. There's so many horrible circumstances in all these places, and why are these people even here? You know, just then Bill would say, it's to get a body. And I say, well, you know, it seems like cruel, you know, that people have to go through these horrible lives just to get a body. And, you know, why are there only so few people that have the truth and everybody thinks they have the truth? All this stuff, you know, started to. I really started to think about things and that at this point, as all these, you know, as I started to admit to myself, only to myself in my journal, that I, like, questioned the fundamentals of my faith, and I decided I needed to talk to somebody. And at this point, I knew nothing about the historical things except for what I'd read in that New Yorker, and I did not follow up on it at that time. And, yeah, and I talked to my friend from Spain on Skype.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Not your old boyfriend?

Ana Reading [00:10:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] The one who had written you the 300 problems with the questions about the Book of Mormon way back in the day.

Ana Reading [00:10:32] Yes. And he just said to me, well, you need to figure out what you still believe, you know, and he was actually shocked. He says, I thought the Pope would start doubting before you would ever doubt. It was, like, really shocked. And I think it was a bit shook. You know, it's like, why you are questioning your faith? And then, yeah, I am. And finally, you know, when he told me to write down everything I still believe what I don't believe, I realized that the only thing I still believe was God and Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Let me ask you this. And by the way, one of our listeners, Joe, he writes, the rarity of this lady is so refreshing. Beauty, intelligence, and sense of humor. Love the podcast, so thank you.

Ana Reading [00:11:19] I love you, whoever you are.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Joe agrees with me that you're an exceptional human. Let me just ask you this. You know, Fawn Brody's book, no Man Knows My History has been around since 1945. You had your own boyfriend from Spain trying to wake you up to the problems back in your adolescence. Like the Tanners have been around since the 60s. But this information's been around, but it isn't until we're open to it that we're open to it. Until we're open to it. We're not open to it.

Ana Reading [00:11:56] Yeah. Plus, you know, I wasn't really, you know, I didn't really see this information. Yes, there were the questions my boyfriend had written. That's true. You know, there I could have followed up. And you're right, you know, I wasn't ready to see something like this. But I never, you know, so I. I didn't even really know about Joseph Smith having more than one wife until I read that in that New Yorker article. And even then, it didn't sink in as much until later. You know, it's like. You're right. You know, it's like. It's like you filter it right out when you're not ready. It's like you're not hearing it.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Yeah. And so my question was going to be, if you had to describe what it was that ripened you to be willing to not just, like, discard that New Yorker article as anti Mormon literature and go back to your cave, what do you think of all the experiences you've shared with us over the past two hours? What were the things that ripened you most to being willing to not just consider problematic things about the church, but also start to doubt and question, you know, your Mormon beliefs? What was it that you were. The church had become not so fulfilling? Was it that you just. Life hadn't turned out like you had hoped? Were there things that maybe emotionally ripened you, softened you to be open to considering a different way?

Discovering Troubling Church History

Ana Reading [00:13:30] I'm sure there. There were, you know, but it's really hard to pinpoint the one thing. I think it's more like a combination of things. It's like.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Yeah, what was the combination?

Ana Reading [00:13:41] Well, definitely the fact that I was so overworked in the church, that there was a certain resentment. You know, there was like so much stuff, and I felt like I constantly had to prove myself. And I started to have enough of that. And I seemed to not be able to get out of it. You know, no matter what I did, I always ended up in it still. And so that was one thing. And then the other thing that I felt like church was boring. It wasn't giving me anything except for friendships, you know, but we were then actually we were in tune. Like I said, it was like a family. And then all of a sudden, decision from the Stake Presidency was we had to go back to Bern. Half our ward was split, half went to Interlock, and the other half was Bernie. And we didn't like this. We were like a family in tomb, and we were just forced. And I Remember, Bill and I, we decided to take the state presidency up on it. We went there and we said, please explain us. Explain to us why we have to do this. We don't want to lose our word. Then it was like. And then Bill actually, he challenged them and said, is this from the Lord? And they said, yes. But of course, it wasn't. It was just a practical decision because all three units were not strong enough. They needed to split them and make just two that they could survive. And we were just arbitrarily sent. We still lived in the same place now to Bern. And that was really hard, you know, because so I lost some of my friends there in the ward. And so it wasn't much from friendships anymore either, except for one friend that I gained. That you actually met when you were here, Isis. And I'm really glad I gained her. And she is a very different kind of Mormon. She's a convert, and she has sort of her own view of things. She's very much an ally of lgbtq, and she's very open about that. She's very feminist, and she always was like that. Like, the very first Fast Sunday in Bern, she was showing her new tattoo that says, I'm a daughter of God. And she was showing that in testimony meeting. So I thought, okay, I like her. But she also opened up my mind about things. It was like there was some cognitive dissonance going on with the way she looked at it, because I was used to either it's like this, and what you do over here is maybe wrong, you know, but I was starting to really like her, and she was doing stuff that I would have thought was wrong, but I couldn't see it as wrong anymore. And so all these things, you know, played together.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] A couple quick other comments from our listeners. Tad Tholstrom, who I love. Hey, Tad.

Ana Reading [00:16:40] Tad writes, That's Holly's brother, right?

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Yeah, it's Holly's brother.

Ana Reading [00:16:43] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] He writes, anna is amazing. Hey, Glenn. Glenn writes, I had to go on a mission to Ireland to learn that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. So you're not the only one who learned that late in life. I, too, John, learned that really late in life. You'll like this, Ana. Carl writes, this is one of your best shows. She is so interesting. How do you like that, Ana?

Ana Reading [00:17:06] Oh, thank you. Thank you. You had some great shows, so that is a big compliment.

Guest [00:17:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Yeah. And I'm just gonna say that's really interesting that you're not alone. There are a lot of people that get just so caught up in the Mormon rat race of hyper callings and guilt and shame that over time their church experience just becomes sad or depressing or even toxic. I have to think in 2018 19, when Russell M. Nelson has now cut church back from three hours to two, which just goes into effect this week in 2019, it has to be that they've asked people why they're leaving the church. And so many people feel guilty or shamed or worn out or tired. And that the reduction of church from three to two hours is a result of focus groups and surveys that show that, that one of the main causes of people dropping out is just sheer exhaustion, frustration, worn out, you know, shame, sadness, irritation. When a church should be nurturing you and filling you spiritually instead of wearing you out and making you sad and want to kill yourself. Which is kind of, it seemed like, you know, this nervous breakdown thing is kind of where you were headed.

Ana Reading [00:18:32] Yeah, yeah, no, that's really, really true. And so it was that and also talking to, I asked an atheist friend, you know, why did you stop believing in God? And when he expressed his feelings, it was so genuine, it touched me. It was like I felt the spirit. I can't say any other way. It was that same feeling. And I thought, wow, he's so genuine about it. And he says, I wish there was a God, but I just can't believe it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] And that's disorienting. When a great person is either of a different faith or atheist or agnostic. You're like, wait a minute, how can this person be so amazing and they don't believe in God.

Ana Reading [00:19:18] Right, right. And what happened in me was like I thought maybe he's right. There's a 50, 50 chance that that's true too, you know. And so it just, those were all like different factors that I think, you know, played all together. And it was like. But I was trying to hang on, you know, it was in that time when that talk was given. Doubt your doubts, you know, And I remember hearing that and I thought it was just set for me and it probably was set for people like me. And I was like, okay, you know, I'm not going to doubt anymore. I'm going to react, apply myself. And I would like hang on to every little faith story and would say, okay, okay, you know, I can still believe it's all there.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] That was around 2013. That's when Uchtdorf was really. And he. You must have had sympathies with Uchtdorf as a German speaking apostle.

Ana Reading [00:20:15] Right. And I met him once he came to the warden tune, and I really liked him and his wife.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] And that was right when we were communicating with him in indirect ways around our survey on people in Faith Crisis. That's when the church was starting to write and release the essays. And Uchtdorf was really trying to speak to people in Faith Crisis.

Ana Reading [00:20:39] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] That must have been nice.

Ana Reading [00:20:40] It worked for a little bit, but it was like a band aid on a huge bleeding wound. It didn't do much. Yeah. And then in January 2014, so that's five years ago, it was in this very room. Juha was visiting with us in this fairy room.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] Sorry, there's a song.

Ana Reading [00:21:00] Yeah, it's kind of ominous.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Juhuha was coming to visit you?

Ana Reading [00:21:04] Yes, we had become, you know.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] And are you able to. Juha's background is fascinating. He's one of my most desired Mormon stories interviews. Are you allowed to tell our listeners anything about Yuha or not?

Ana Reading [00:21:19] Yes, I am. I asked him.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Okay, yeah, tell us about Yuha, because he's Yuha. If you're listening, I want to interview you.

Ana Reading [00:21:28] Yes, yes, he will one day, I'm sure. Right, Juha? Okay, so what can you tell us about Yuha? I met him on his mission, and we became friends then. And he was also at byu, and we stayed in contact then, but then we kind of lost contact for many years, and we found each other again through Facebook. And I think it's maybe about 10 years ago, I'm not 100% sure, but. So he lived in Frankfurt and he was working. Like you said earlier. He's a Finn, he's from Finland, but he lived in Frankfurt and he was working for the church. And I thought, oh, he's so close. And I had always really liked him. And so we went up there and visited him, and we became really good friends again. He would come and visit us here in Switzerland, and we would go up to Frankfurt, and our friendship kind of deepened. And I'm also allowed to say this, and he's gay. And I didn't know this at first, but I started to suspect he was not married, but I didn't dare asking him. And I was still active in the church. Right. But I started to think about his situation and think, you know, that's not fair, that he shouldn't have love in his life. I want him to have love in his life. And I remember discussing this with Bill. I said, you know, everyone should have love in their life, and I want that for Juha. But he was also working for the church, so it was very Very difficult. And so anyway, at this point, now that Juha was here, January 2014, he was sitting here and Bill and I were sitting, and he was telling us about the essays. Because he worked for the church, he knew about the essays. And I think it was only about four that had come out at this point. I don't know how many, but I remember him sitting there and saying, first he told us about Joseph Smith and the hat and the stone. And I thought, what is this? You know, and my mind was just like. And then the next thing, he's talking about the polygamy and polyandry, the hat

John Dehlin [00:23:39] and the stone, because you had been taught what all your life.

Ana Reading [00:23:42] He had golden plates that he translated with the Urim and thummit. You know, I'd seen pictures and I mean, now he was looking into a hat and there was like a seer stone in it. It just seemed really fishy to me.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] And the plates weren't anywhere to be found? They weren't in the room?

Ana Reading [00:24:00] No. You know, and I didn't even know that in all the details, but just this sounded so strange. And then he talked about the multiple visions of the first versions of the first vision that seemed to contradict themselves. First it was only the Lord and there were angels, and he was only asking, you know, for his sins to be forgiven. And then later, all of a sudden, you know, it was two beings that had always been like the most important part of our discussions, the first vision and this incredible thing that God and Jesus were two people, you know, and now all of a sudden, it had only been one in his first vision, and he had not told anyone about it for 12 years or. And as he said this, it was really strange. What went through my head was like just one sentence. It was like, I knew it. This is all not true.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] Oh, no.

Ana Reading [00:24:52] It literally was like that. It was like everything just fell down. And it was probably because I was so ready, you know, because I already had all these doubts. I don't know. But it just. That's all that went through my head. And Bill wasn't faced by it at all, you know, and that's what I did.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] Bill heard these things, or did. He just. He just wasn't open.

Ana Reading [00:25:13] I have no idea what went through his head, but nothing happened with him. It didn't even register much. But afterwards I went for a walk with Juha and that's what I said. And he was surprised that I reacted like that. I said, I knew it. None of these things.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Wait, he also mentioned to you Joseph's polygamy and polyandry.

Ana Reading [00:25:30] Yes, he did.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] And what was that like for you? Because you had stopped believing in polygamy, and you probably as a missionary, when you refused to believe in polygamy, you probably hadn't yet learned that Joseph.

Ana Reading [00:25:43] No, I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] What was that like to hear from Yah that Joseph had over 30 wives, some of them as young as 14, and eight or nine of them other men's wives. What was that like?

Ana Reading [00:25:55] Well, what bothered me at most at first was that I had not known about this.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:26:02] You know, that's what bothered me the most. I was like, how could they keep this from us? You know, And I have been lied to, you know, I mean, that's what really upset me. And also just this fact that he was marrying women that were already married to other men, you know, polyandry. That to me was like, everything we've been told about polygamy is to help women that have lost their husbands, the widows. It was all not true. You know, it was like such a lie. You know, if he married women that were already married to other men, I mean, I could see no reason for that. None.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:26:42] You know, at that time. And so it was like, after that, I was like. So I wanted to find out more, and I don't remember. I think it was Vaughn. I talked to Vaughn, who was a companion of Juha's in the mission and who I also reconnected with over Facebook, and he told me that he listened to these really interesting podcasts called the Year of Polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Okay, wait, you said you were on a walk with Yuha. Were you going to tell us something you said to him on that walk, or did I. Did I cut you off or did you say.

Ana Reading [00:27:17] Yeah, no, I just said to him, I don't believe any of it anymore. I told him what had gone through my head, and he was surprised, you know, that my reaction was such. But then I.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] Did he still believe at that point?

Ana Reading [00:27:30] No, he had serious doubts as well.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] Okay.

Ana Reading [00:27:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:34] And that's always interesting when you're gay working for the church.

Ana Reading [00:27:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] You don't believe anymore or you're struggling.

Ana Reading [00:27:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:40] That's fine.

Ana Reading [00:27:41] He had already seen some things in the church, you know, working for the church, that made him doubt a lot of things. You know, lies that were being printed and stuff like that. You know, whole testimonies that were written up before the event even happened. You know, we felt the spirit greatly and stuff. For a conference that was going to happen in two weeks and he had to translate this or had it translated. And, you know, so he had already seen a lot of things that were bothering him. And I think these essays really then shook his faith. But that's his story.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] It was a tough. It was a tough call for the church because they released the essays. One of the primary motivations of releasing the essays was, was so that no one could any longer claim that they had been lied to or deceived. So that's the benefit of releasing the essays. And of course, they hid them and continue to hide them because they don't want the other thing to happen, which is what happened to Yuha, which is by becoming more transparent, open, they trigger other people's faith crisis.

Ana Reading [00:28:54] Right. And, you know, he told me it was Juha that told me about Mormon stories at that time. He was like listening to it like crazy all the time, I think, day and night. And I listened only to one episode, the one where you were telling the reasons for staying in the church. And I was like, well,

John Dehlin [00:29:19] I'm heard that Mormon Studies wasn't your Mormon stories wasn't your first podcast. I'm devastated.

Ana Reading [00:29:25] Yeah, it was Year of Polygamy and I.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] What did you like about Year of Polygamy?

Ana Reading [00:29:31] Oh, I was like hooked to this thing, you know, it was so fascinating. And the more I listened to it, the more I got upset with Joseph Smith, you know, I was like, oh, that guy was awful, you know, And I know Lindsay was really trying to, you know, be open minded and to show different angles and to say, it's messy, it's not just about sex and all this. But to me, you know, just as I was listening to, like, for example, these two sisters that he married that were 16 and 17 or something that were in his house, my two younger girls were 16 and 17 or something, it was like somehow the ages corresponded and it just. I was like, oh my gosh, you know, and it made me almost physically ill, you know, to think that now this guy would. Would just marry them and would rob them of their futures, of their youth. And. Yeah, that. It just really upset me. And I would tell. Well, I wasn't at first, I wasn't telling Bill about it. That took a while. But anyway, so. And then I went and read the whole CES letter and Juha told me about that one. Okay, that was sort of. After that, I was totally done, you know, I was like, okay, this, you know, and I would follow the different leads and I would say, well, this is so clear, you know, that there's all this Stuff wrong with this church. And Yua became sort of my only person to talk to. Obviously, he was in Frankfurt. I was here. We just could call on the phone, but we would talk for hours. And whenever we found something new and a good podcast or a good something, you know, we would tell each other and we would discuss it. I mean, he was the only person I had to talk to. And plus, this friend in Spain, I told him about it all, and he actually defended the church. He says, oh, come on. You know, it's like every church has stuff like that. You know, it's like the Catholic church is full of problems like this. This can't be a reason to leave. And I said, are you kidding me? This is the true church. We don't have stuff like that. Or at least that's what I thought. And, yeah, he was. He was really nice about it, but he said, have you talked to Bill? Every time he'd ask me, have you talked to Bill? I said, well, not yet. You know, I put it off because I was scared of what he would say. And so finally, this friend, he said, you need to talk to Bill about it. No matter what he says, you know, you can't keep this to yourself anymore. So I did. I asked Bill, do you remember those essays that Juha mentioned? You know, what did you think about it? He was like, it was okay. I said, really? And I told him about the things again. And I said, that didn't bother you? And he's like, no. And, you know, then I started to, you know, then I just. I probably did it all well. I didn't do it very well at first. I just threw all the stuff that I had just heard and read at him, you know, and it put him on defense, you know, and he just didn't even want to hear it. And I said to him, oh, let's just look at it together. There was, like, a small part of me that was still hoping he could put it all together, he could explain it somehow, but he didn't want to look at it. And at that time, he regrets this statement now, but at that time, he said, I don't want to look at pornography with you. That's what it was like to him. Pornography, reading these things. And that, of course, that really hurt me. And I then shut down. It's like, okay, fine, I'll do this on my own.

Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah. So this is where things get really, really, really hard. Because, you know, the most important thing to many of us is our marriage in our family. And even the church teaches Family above all else. And then all of a sudden, you know, you've built your whole life on the church and this orthodox understanding. You know, you made promises to Bill and him to you, and you've raised your children this way. All of a sudden, you develop a new understanding, not out of some sin or wickedness or evilness, but simply reading the church's own materials. You feel betrayed and your faith starts evaporating because your faith was built on a Sandy foundation based on fraud and withholding of information and deception. But you're petrified to talk to the person that you should trust and love most in your life. And instead, you are forced to talk to some single employee of the church, you know, gay person who lives in another country, because there's no one you can talk to and your spouse isn't where you are. Bill. I love Bill, by the way. I've met Bill. He's amazing, but at the time, he's just not ready yet. And I'd loved you to talk about the fear and the loneliness and the isolation you experience. And this is where Switzerland comes in, because you're not doing this in Draper or Sandy or Ogden, where there are these large, hundred people, communities of support where you can go to a meetup and a coffee at Harmon's at 9am on a Sunday and have 40 people there loving you and embracing you and supporting you. When you go through a faith crisis in Switzerland and even your spouse can't understand, what's that like in terms of fear and isolation.

Ana Reading [00:35:38] It was terrible. It really is probably one of the worst times of my life. I felt so alone. I was hiding it from my children. And I was, you know, had told my husband, but he didn't want to hear it. He was. In fact, he got very angry with me. I understand. Because he felt betrayed. You know, he felt I had just thrown out everything that we had built, our marriage, you know, the covenants we had made in the temple, and he felt it was willful. I think at first he felt I was just, I don't know, going through a midlife crisis or was being selfish or wanted some more fun in life or something. And. And it was like he was constantly angry at me and telling me, you know, that I was selfish and things like that. He said a lot of hurtful things that came out of his hurt, you know, because he was hurt. And yeah, there was like, nobody, you know, and I did join the Mormon stories community, like, online, but I hardly participated because I felt like there wasn't. I didn't really fit in. You know, I was like, I was a Swiss and it wasn't the same situation. I later realized that the situations are actually more similar than I thought. But at first, you know, I didn't feel like they were. And, you know, I would basically live off the podcast and of talking to Juha and my atheist friend in Spain, both in a different country. And I started to talk to some other people outside of the church, but they couldn't really understand, you know, they didn't really understand why this was such a big deal. But these two, Juha and my friends in Spain, they understood. And so, yeah, it was just. It was terrible. And I kept wanting to just find somebody that I could talk to. And I seem to have been the first. I didn't know about Philip, who actually was at a very similar time going through some similar stuff.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Philip Giesler, who I interviewed just for our listeners who don't know. I interviewed him a month or two ago about his Swiss Mormon upbringing and faith crisis.

Ana Reading [00:38:11] Right. And so I felt like I was the first and only Swiss going through this.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah.

Ana Reading [00:38:18] When I talked to my stake president, of course, you know, Bill was actually a bishop at the time when I

John Dehlin [00:38:24] lost my faith, which adds to the complexity and explains some of his unwillingness to be able to get there with you. Right.

Ana Reading [00:38:33] And it was really hard for him. And he mentioned it to the stake president. So the stake president was talking to me and he didn't know any the issues. He didn't even know what I was talking about.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] The stake president?

Ana Reading [00:38:44] Yes, the stake president.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Of course.

Ana Reading [00:38:46] Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] You know, just today I was emailed by a sitting bishop who's lost his faith. You know, there are many, many bishops losing their faith over these issues. So the church is in this conundrum of releasing these essays and at the same time not wanting to infect its leadership. So it's in this weird position of bishops and stake presidents not knowing that the essays exist, let alone having read them, and being able to support. Because the Church doesn't want to keep losing bishops. Like I said, today, a sitting bishop emails me and says, I've lost my faith. What do I do? And this is one of dozens of times that's happened over the past several years.

Ana Reading [00:39:29] Yeah. And so it's like they just tell themselves this narrative, oh, she's read some anti Mormon stuff on the Internet, you know, and that's how she lost her faith. And I was trying to tell him, no, this isn't anti Mormon stuff. You know, these are facts, you know, but you know, then you're also. I've noticed that other people have the same. You don't really want to tell people too much because you don't want them to go through what you're going through. I still have this conflict, I think, oh, you know, let them stay in their bottle, you know? So I didn't really want to tell him too much when I realized he didn't know anything about it. But Bill asked to be released because he couldn't deal with it anymore. It was really, really hard for him, and he was struggling on his own. I was struggling over here. It was just like two lonely people drowning. We could see each other drowning, but neither one of us could help the other, it seemed. And so I didn't think our marriage was going to survive. I didn't know how. And that was additionally awful. But at this point, this was still 2014. Right? Two of my kids, my two older kids were engaged to be married in the Temple. And I said to Bill, I don't care what, but I'm going to those weddings. You know, I still had a Temple recommend till November, and the first one was getting married in June and the other one in October. And I said, I'm not telling the kids. I'm going to these ceilings. I'm going to be there, because otherwise their marriage, their wedding will be ruined. You know, their mother can't be there at such short notice. That would have really. Especially my daughter. It would have really, really upset her.

John Dehlin [00:41:26] And I'm just gonna have to say that's another unacceptable stress and tension that the Church puts on people by having the Temple recommend and weddings tied to temple recommends and worthiness, not only are they excluding beautiful, precious, non Mormons from those ceremonies, but now if a mother or a father or a sibling or grandparent or whatever, a child, if they have a faith crisis and they can't feel in good conscience, even if they're worthy in every way in terms of the law of chastity or word of wisdom or tithing even, which I was. If they can't answer all of the Church's questions, then they're prohibited from seeing their own child's wedding. That no one should be precluded from their child's wedding, especially for having sincere doubts after having been systematically misled and deceived by the institution for decades. That's egregious and unacceptable.

Ana Reading [00:42:36] Yeah. And, you know, I'm really glad I was there, but it was such a disappointing thing, you know, like, all my life I'd look forward to My kids getting married in the temple. And then when it was actually there, it meant nothing to me anymore, you know, which was so sad, you know, But I'm kind of proud of my daughter, who I went with her through her endowment, which is how I got to see the new films. But anyway, they're now even going to be new. But she said to me, after she had gone through the first time, she said to me, and not just to me, she asked the temple major, how come my husband can know my name but I cannot know his, you know, And I thought, good for you. Really good question. Didn't occur to me years ago. At least I didn't ask it. So the answer was, we don't know, you know, that's the answer they gave her. Yeah. But at this point, because things were so difficult for me, you know, I had some help and I started to go to a therapy.

Impact on Children and Family Relationships

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Let me just add one thing. A listener writes. Penny writes, our returned missionary son told me yesterday, when I asked him what he thought about my faith crisis, that I just wanted attention. I have not told him much, but he thinks that it is obvious that the church is true. One of my daughters thinks I'm an apostate, but is not willing to talk about it. A friend of mine that I walk with said something about me being an apostate on our walk yesterday. That surprised me. So yesterday was difficult. Our hearts go out to you, Penny. We are so sorry. This is where nobody likes to call the church a cult. You know, it's not productive to call the church a cult, but this is when the church sort of unnecessarily makes it more likely or probable that people are going to associate the church with the cult, when the church is associated with tearing families apart, when these are good people just trying to live their lives in good conscience. PJ writes, I left the church when my son was on his mission. He recently got married in the temple, and we had a long talk when he first came home from his mission that when he got married to also have a ring ceremony. They did. And also had a hand fasting ceremony as well. I don't know what a hand fasting ceremony is, but that's so nice, pj, that your son was willing to have a ring ceremony so that at least you could see that. But even that's a tragedy that somehow you're withheld from the ceremony itself. So sorry. I just wanted to include some of the listener comments.

Ana Reading [00:45:21] No, that's great. And that still might be ahead of me, you know?

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Yeah. Because you have children, children who are unmarried.

Ana Reading [00:45:29] Right, Right. But I. At least I was there for these two older ones. And I'm. I'm. I don't regret it at all. I'm really glad that I did this. But like I was saying, I started to go to therapy, and my biggest thing that we would discuss every time was like, how can I tell my kids? I was terrified of it. And I think the therapist who was never a Mormon, you know, she didn't fully understand, you know, she just didn't really get it why I would be so terrified. She said, well, don't your kids love you? And stuff. I said, yeah, but, you know, she just couldn't understand. I was so scared that they would be so disappointed in me. They had always looked up to me. I knew that they adored me, you know, and now I was going to be falling from graves. I was going to suffer, make them suffer. I mean. And I was mostly, you know, I was afraid that they would think of me like what Penny has mentioned, that they would think of me as an apostate. And I was terrified of that. I really was. But I knew I had to do it. You know, I actually had thought about, you know, as this whole year that I still was going to church when I didn't believe anymore. Every Sunday, I just wrote in my journal. That's how I survived, you know, and many times I'd written, I'll just make it work. I'll just keep believing, pretending, you know, and it shouldn't be so hard. It was not hard before, but it actually was really hard. I couldn't do it anymore. I would get upset at everything. They would say. They would show the first Vision movie, and I would say, oh, my gosh, it's completely wrong. You know, and, you know, so I never said it out loud, but I just. Yeah, church was now awful for me, you know, So I knew I had to talk to them. And so the way I decided to do it is, was to talk to each of the children individually, starting with the oldest, and then, you know, going down and just invited them for dinner and talk to them individually, really close together, you know, but each alone. And it was really, really hard. And the older three, they didn't really cry. The youngest, she cried. But it was. It was really, really upsetting for them. And I know that you raised them

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Mormon, you raised them devout Mormon, and now, because you had not been given the full story, you have to. You spend a decade and a half raising these kids, or two decades, and then all of a Sudden you, as their parent, has to go back and say, you know, all that stuff I taught you, I was misled, and I don't believe it anymore. What a terrible, traumatic thing to impose not just on parents, but on. On children. Right?

Ana Reading [00:48:27] Yeah. And, you know, they were such. All of them were such faithful children. Like, Liam had been on a mission. You know, he had lost his first girlfriend over this mission, you know, he had given all this time and energy to it. And now I was telling him I thought it was all wrong, you know, and this was. This was terrible. And I know, like, they all got angry with me. Not. They didn't show it right then and there, but they got angry. Like, Liam would have, like, these secret councils where they would all meet, and our mother has gone off the deep end. What do we do to save her? You know, kind of thing. I heard about it, you know, through the grapevine. I was very hurt by it, but not so much anymore because I understand now, but at the time, it hurt me, you know, And Natasha, my oldest daughter, she was able to tell me relatively soon after, like, about two weeks after we met in town, and she was able to tell me, I am so angry at you. And that was good that she said it and I said, of course you are angry. And then she could let it all out, and we cried and it was okay. But when I say it was okay, she's still struggling with it, but she was okay with me again, you know. But the next daughter, Alina, she was angry at me for almost a year, you know, she would hardly let me touch her. She would not let it out. She kept thinking, I think I should be tolerant of this. You know, I should be open about this. But she couldn't, you know. And finally I said to her, are you still angry at me? You are allowed to be. And then she broke down and she cried and we talked about it and it got better. And. Yeah, and Elara, she was the only one that didn't. The youngest, she was the only one that didn't change in the way she acted towards me. But it just really confused her because she's like one of these people. She just. The other kids always say she can't find any fault with you. So even in this, she couldn't find any fault with me. But she just then was really confused, and I think she still is confused, you know, and they are not over this. And it's five years, you know, and so. And Alina has, you know, gone on a mission and come back early because of her Doubts now. She's the only one that now also has serious doubts, at least that I know of.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] So, yeah, that was something that I was able to experience a little bit with you to the difficulty of the torment of having your child go on mission. You don't want to mess with her decisions. You don't want to subvert or undermine what she feels called to do and what feels right. But at the same time, you realize that it was you who helped indoctrinate her, that she might not be acting at full agency because of the way the church indoctrinates people, frankly. And so then she's going on a mission. And that was super hard for you to just see a daughter go on a mission when you no longer believed.

Reaching Out for Support and Therapy

Ana Reading [00:52:05] Well, here we come to the point where I contacted you, you know, because I finally. I don't know what I thought. I need to talk to somebody that really understands, you know, what I'm going through, because this therapist here just didn't. And there was nobody. And I thought, well, who better than John De Lin? He seems to have talked to, like, thousands of people so he would understand. So I just contacted you, and we had some trouble connecting, right, with time difference and stuff. And. And I remember the first time we talked, I was, like, in some kind of a restaurant downtown in Ban. Like, in the back, because you said you could talk in the next 10 minutes. I thought, I'm not gonna let this slip through my fingers. I'm gonna do it now. And even though it was super inconvenient at that place, and I think our connection was really bad and whatever, but it just was like an amazing thing because I felt right away that you understood what I was going through, and that was the first time, except for from Juha, you know. But you also understood the mixed faith thing and all this. And it just was like a big moment, and I decided, okay, I need some help this way. And also at the same time, we decided to go to a couple couples therapy here that was not done by, you know, this. This. Obviously, there's no therapists here that have any experience with mixed faith marriages. But there was. He's a theologian or. What's the word? No. Yeah, yeah. And so he had some understanding of religion, and we just got really lucky. He was a really good guy. So these two things started to bring about a change. You know, like, he taught us as he would listen to Bill, and in. In those sessions, you know, all the anger would come out and my frustration and loneliness and all this would come out and like, he would try to help us see that there was a. A place where we could coexist. You know, he wouldn't talk about the issues, of course. He would talk about how can we connect, how can we talk to each other. He helped actually build. Heal his anger, you know, hear me and realize I was not being willful or selfish or cruel, but that I was courageous and authentic and had tried to follow, you know, my truth. And so I think that helped a lot, and it helped me understand where Bill's anger came from, where his frustration came from, and it helped me. I still had a really hard time with this, you know, but it helped me think maybe I could still be with him even if he does believe. You know, it wasn't just him having a hard time with me. It was me having a hard time being with him.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] That's right. It's like, how can you be the non believers? Like, how can you be so foolish? How can you put your head in the sand? How can you not trust me? How can you not go down this path with me? It can be just as cantankerous and hostile from the non believer towards the believer.

Ana Reading [00:55:37] Yeah. And as proselyte, you know, I would say, well, what about this and what about that? You know, And I would throw all this stuff at him, which would only make him entrench, you know, he would like. But I had my spiritual experiences, and nothing can change that, you know, and. Yeah, so that. And then what I learned from talking to you was also that it was much more important to have, you know, the connection was much more important than who was right and who was wrong. And I first applied this with Alina. I think we talked in the afternoon or something, and you told me that I needed to tell her that she mattered to me and not what she believed, that I supported her 100% in no matter what she believed. And I went and did that that evening exactly like this. And it was like a wall came down. You know, she started crying, and this was before she was going on her mission. And then she started to tell me some of her doubts, some of her fears, you know, that she had not told me before, because I guess, you know, there was this wall between us, and so that completely healed between Alina and myself. And I had a harder time applying it to my husband, you know, than to my children. Somehow it's easier to let a child live in a completely different space, you know, than your partner. But the same thing applies there, too. And I tried. I tried to apply that, too. I Tried to think, okay, connection is more important. And, you know, one of the things that I had a hard time with is that Bill had a hard time. He just thought I was going to become a bad person now. Well, if you can just throw away, you know, the church, then what else are you going to throw away?

John Dehlin [00:57:34] Yeah, the believer thinks you're going to throw away the marriage.

Ana Reading [00:57:37] Yes, the marriage. And are you going to start drinking? Are you going to start sleeping around? Sleeping around. You know, your morals go down and out the window and stuff like that. And. And I was really offended by that, you know, and then he would say, well, you come from a bad family, and it was always the church that kept you. I was like, what? You know, I felt like attacked in my inner core. I thought, no, I'm this person because of me and not because of the.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] But, you know. Yeah, that's true. Your dad was philandering as a Mormon, right?

Ana Reading [00:58:13] Exactly. Yeah. And I would say that. I said, how is that? It's not that that has kept me from doing that. It's who I am, you know, But I think he somehow had connected, you know, he had never feared that I would do bad things because I have the gospel, you know? Plus, he had this idea, we have eternity to figure it out, you know, so if we don't have a great marriage here, but we'll figure it out in the eternities, Right? And I would say, no, let's. Let's have it here. You know, that would. We can. If there is an eternity, we can have it there, too. But let's have it already here. Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest [00:59:30] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right

Ana Reading [01:00:02] these

Guest [01:00:02] guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new When I love I am such friends of you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief It says who you want to be but there is a wise part of you I know you feel it.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1043

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. A couple comments from our listeners. Penny writes, wow, Good mothering, allowing your daughter to get angry at you and to listen to her. So Penny loves that. So does Victoria. Hey, Victoria. Alison writes great podcast. A great mom and strong woman to think for herself. David writes, others have doubts, but don't mention them because they're afraid of being treated as she was. And that's true. How many Mormons struggling, questioning, doubting Mormons live in silence because they are petrified as to how their spouse. Because as tough as it was with Bill, he didn't kick you out, he didn't divorce you, and your kids haven't become estranged from you. So in that sense, as hard as it has been for, you were fortunate. And there are other people that live in fear. There are other people that come out and lose their marriages, get divorced, become estranged from their kids, lose their jobs. That's kind of why Mormon Stories exist. But then there's others that are just so scared to even come out that they keep all this inside. And can you just imagine how toxic that is to your mental health, to your anxiety, to your depression, to just.

Ana Reading [00:02:05] I've tried it for a year, so I know.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] What does that do? What does that do to just keep it inside?

Ana Reading [00:02:09] Ana no, it's terrible. It's terrible. I felt like a hypocrite. I felt like a liar, you know, I felt like every aspect of my life was nothing but a lie, you know, And I'm a very honest person normally, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve, you know, and so for me to be a whole year deceptive like that, it was awful. And that was only one year, you know, I don't know how. There apparently are people who can do that, you know, that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] It wrecks their mental health.

Ana Reading [00:02:42] I think it would.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Yeah, it can drive you to even suicidality. Just. Just.

Ana Reading [00:02:47] Yeah, I mean, it's just. I think it's so important to live your truth, you know, to. I feel so much better now, you know, and even if all those Horrible things that you said would have happened. I mean, that would have been terrible, but I still think I would have done it.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] It would have been better than living a lie.

Ana Reading [00:03:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] And internalizing all these fears and doubts and disbeliefs and concerns.

Ana Reading [00:03:15] Yes. I mean, at least that's how I am. You know, I could not. I know other people have different constraints and it's in some ways more difficult in Utah and in other ways maybe easier because you have other people.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Yeah. Salt Lake is the best place in the world to be an ex Mormon because you've got tens of thousands of ex Mormons here that you can have coffee with or go out and meet and become friends with and create a sort community with. And that's one of the reasons it's important for us to do these stories of people outside the United States because we just forget that we've got all these Mormons all over the world that are impacted by what Joseph Smith did and what the church leaders now do who don't have a lot of the resources and support. And along those lines, Victoria, who we love, she's a top fan. She's in the UK and she writes. No one here really understands either. This is so nice for her to have a place that she can relate to other people. So your story is reached. Victoria. Amy. Oh, Amy. Amy, hi. Amy Germer. She writes Mormons don't own a trademark on morality. That's very true. Yeah. And I just want to add one thing, and this does not come from a place of anything other than sincerity. If you had cancer, you would go to an oncologist or radiologist. If you had diabetes or if you had problems with your digestion, you'd go to a specialist. A mixed faith marriage and a faith crisis is every bit of a specialty as obsessive compulsive disorder or, you know, an eating disorder or post traumatic stress disorder. If you are going through a faith crisis and you go to some, you know, Mormon therapist who was, you know, brought on by, you know, the, you know, by the family. What are they called? Oh, I'm forgetting the name. The Social Services.

Ana Reading [00:05:24] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Yeah. LDS Social Services, LDS Family Services. They're going to just tell you, read the scriptures, pray, have faith, go to church, and it'll get better. And that's not going to help. It's not ethical, let alone useful for a mental health professional to make those sorts of suggestions. But if you go to. Oh, and by the way, if that believing therapist has never gone through a faith crisis, then if they're Counseling a mixed faith couple, they're gonna side, they're gonna tend to side with the believer and by the way, sometimes disclose inappropriately to the bishop or stake president and the non believer is gonna be totally unsafe and unmisunderstood by that believing therapist. But the other problem is if you go to a non Mormon therapist or a never Mormon therapist, sometimes you'll luck into getting a good one. But many of these never Mormon therapists are just gonna go, this whole religion thing's dumb. Like why are you even believing it at all? And you know, or they'll say things like, to you, lots of religions have problems, you know, Protestants, Presbyterians, people believe different things. Why is this such a big divide? Unless you have, unless you are a therapist who's been through both the orthodox point of view and the doubting, disbelieving point of view, it, it's going to be really hard for you to be an effective therapist to someone who's going through a faith crisis and especially in a mixed faith marriage. So this is why I got my PhD. This is why I do faith crisis coaching. Mixed faith marriage coaching. This is why Margi's doing coaching. This is why Natasha, Alfred Parker and so many other people are specialists in this work. Please do not trust a never doubting believing Mormon therapist. And, and please don't trust your marriage to a never Mormon. Go to a specialist who specializes in Mormon faith crisis work and, or in mixed faith marriage work. Because again, you would never trust a heart surgery to a podiatrist. Right? I would never recommend someone with PTSD to a generalist psychologist or a social worker. This is the type of work that's technical enough to need a specialist. And I, I just believe in that strongly enough where I've given my life to this work. So I hope this is why I

Ana Reading [00:07:50] contacted you, you know, because you were the only one that I, that I knew that could do that. But having said that, we were lucky with this therapist that he actually did understand sometimes, you know, he would side with Bill in the sense it was actually an interesting thing. He would sometimes side with me whenever it came to specifically Mormon things, you know, because he thought that was all silly. But he would side with Bill when it was more general faith things because he was a believer, you know, he is a believer. So one time we actually had a discussion about evolution, which I found rather silly, you know, but so, but that those were small moments he did have. So I would say occasionally this can happen, you know, that you find somebody good and if, if it's not good, then you should get out of there. You know, it's like I did with my first therapist who didn't understand me, you know, so. But there are certain things, like, especially like, that have specifically to do with mixed faith, things that I felt like it was so much different when I talked to you because you really understood and helped me and also listen to other people's experiences. I listened later to lots of podcasts from your podcast and some great stories where this would come out, where people would tell how they navigated that, and that helped me as well. So I did feel a little bit as part of a community again. And I have to say, when I wrote in the Mormon Stories community about Alina going on her mission and going through the problems she had in the mission, and there was such an outpouring love from people that I really felt uplifted. You know, people were. And people would go and visit Alina on Temple Square all the time. In fact, she would say, oh, this happens to me all the time, that some friends from my mom's Facebook community just come and visit me and bring me something. So I want to thank everyone that did this, you know, especially Tricia. And she's gone, like, several times, but also Martine actually, and others that have have gone by and brought her stuff and helped her, and they were, like, all these people willing to go and rescue her when she was having problems. In the end, it wasn't necessary, but, yeah, that I think was really great.

John Dehlin [00:10:28] Yeah, that's great. Well, I'm glad you were able to receive the support that you needed.

Ana Reading [00:10:34] I was finally. Yeah, little by little. So if you're there in the dark place, don't give up. You know, it will get better.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Absolutely. Find a therapist or a coach. Find a community. Find a mentor. Find a friend. You're not alone. You don't need to be alone. Reach out to me. You can email me@mormonstoriesmail.com Dr. Johndelinmail.com I'll help you find a coach or a therapist. I'll help you find a community. I'll help you find someone near you. You can also always go to mormonspectrum.org map and there are Facebook and meetup groups all over the world that you can join to find or you can

Ana Reading [00:11:17] write to me as well if you want to.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Yep.

Ana Reading [00:11:19] I'm not a therapist.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] And you go by Ana Lendo.

Ana Reading [00:11:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] On Facebook. Yeah. All right. So where does your story go from here?

Rebuilding Trust in a Mixed-Faith Relationship

Ana Reading [00:11:34] I don't know. What else do you want to know?

John Dehlin [00:11:39] So, yeah. So how have you and Bill weathered the mixed faith marriage? What have been your secrets to not getting divorced, frankly, and not hating each other? Because I would say I've met Bill and I was a little bit scared to meet Bill just because I know that people sometimes perceive me as evil or satanic or whatever. And I found Bill to be very remarkably, you know, he didn't agree with everything. He didn't just jump on board, but he was tolerant at a level for an orthodox believer that I rarely see. He was even willing to attend, willing to attend that entire retreat in Switzerland that we did. And he stayed for the whole thing and listened to everything. And he wasn't disruptive, he was friendly. He treated me really well. So in some ways, Bill's kind of a remarkable guy.

Ana Reading [00:12:38] Well, he thinks you're the most Mormon, Post Mormon he's ever met.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] That's true. I am.

Ana Reading [00:12:46] Yeah. No, he really, he really liked you. Well, yeah, it was. It was difficult. But our therapist said also to us that we are both. We were both always, how can I say, willing to still work at it, you know, Bill even more so maybe than I, you know, because he just. He just didn't want to give up on me, you know, he said. He said there must be a way that we can. That we can figure this out. And I was more like, well, if this doesn't get any better, then I don't want to stay in this, you know, because I just felt he couldn't accept me the way I was. And I also, granted, had a hard time accepting him, you know, but I kept saying to myself, well, actually I promised one of my kids. I said to her, I promised you because they were afraid I was going to get divorced. We were going to get divorced. And I said, I promise you I will try everything, and only if it doesn't work at all, then we will. And so whenever I wanted to give up, I thought, well, you could still try this. Maybe John could talk to Bill or maybe, you know, we could. Then you recommended a really good book. It's called Getting the Love youe Want. And I thought, okay, we'll work through the end of that book and if it isn't better by then, you know, but actually, that book is really great. And it. And between the therapy and this book and both of us just not giving up, you know, it got a lot better. It just got a lot better. And, you know, one of the things we learned in the therapies is to talk to each other more constructively, you know, like he would say, don't stay on this, what he called. It's like he said, it's off the main battlefield, you know, you end up getting onto this other. You said. And I said, and no, you said, and it's your fault. And he says, that's not really what it's about. You need to always get back to what it's about. I am hurt here. You know, this hurts me. And then the other person, oh, and this hurts me. And then you can actually connect, you know, when you understand each other's hurt. And like when I understood in the therapy and I heard how deeply Bill was hurt by this, you know, how he felt like I had betrayed him, stabbed him in the back. All his hopes and dreams, he had had, you know, we were going to go on a mission and we were going to be together forever. All this I had just ruined, you know, so to speak. And of course, I didn't look at it that way, you know, I didn't feel like I had ruined it. I felt like I had found out it's not true. But that's how it looked to him. And so I started to have some compassion for him, you know, and we realized that, and it meant a lot that he was still willing to try. At one point, I remember saying in the therapy, well, maybe it's better you find yourself someone else and have another temple marriage where you can have all this. And then he said, no, I'd rather be with you. And I thought, okay, you know. And so those things meant a lot to me. I realized I was more important to him than the church, even though the church is so important to him. But then there was still the question, can I live with someone that believes these things? And that wasn't easy to answer either, because I thought it's foolish, and how could he? But then I thought, well, I can accept my kids that way. Why can't I do it with him? I can accept some of my friends like that. And as long as I can be myself, I can be authentic, then it doesn't really matter what he believes, does it? So I started to be myself. I would drink a coffee, you know, I would say the things that I thought, you know, just openly, without always harping on the church, but just say, you know, well, I didn't really like the name of the church now, you know, being you can't call it Mormon anymore, that's a bit silly. That's how I feel about it, you know. And then he started to accept that more and more and actually finds it kind of silly, too. And so then, as I felt like I could be more myself, it got better. And I also did that with my kids because at first, it's like this big white elephant in the room, you know, there's all this stuff you can't talk about anymore, and all this stuff that has to be just avoided. And I thought, I don't want to live like this, you know, I really don't. You know, I can be myself, and I'm their mother. They can accept me that way, you know, And I. And I started doing it with Bill's family as well. I wrote all of them a letter and explained why I don't believe anymore. Some of them didn't answer at all. Some of them answered very kindly and said, we still love you, you know. And some, you know, tried to convert me back and were just telling me that they were disappointed, but at least it was out, you know, it was out in the open, and it wasn't this big thing that only was talked about behind my back, you know? And even when I go back to church, I say things like, oh, I love Sunday. You know, it's so relaxing when I can be at home and take a bath. And then these women were uncomfortable, and they were saying, oh, we wish we could do that. And I said, well, you can do it. You know, nobody's keeping you from staying at home. And, you know, and I would just say these things that were like, these taboos you're not supposed to say. And it helps, because when you do it, then at least here, I don't know if it's the same in Utah, but here, people respond, too. And I make a joke, you know, and then it's like it becomes less of a taboo. In fact, Liam, my oldest son, was criticizing me for my coffee machine. He says, oh, that's not very high tech, you know, it's just a small little thing. Don't you want to get a nice, big thing? You know? And to me, that was like a big step, you know, that. That he said that he was teasing you? Yeah, he was teasing me about it. He realized, well, his mom drinks coffee, but other than that, she's really the same as before. That's pretty much the only thing I've changed, you know, or one of the very few things, and at least, you know, outward small things, since I didn't really like alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Yeah. I want to just highlight, just in review, something that I noticed, which is that, you know, it is true that some, you know, people who lose their faith have Affairs. It's also true that devout orthodox Mormons have affairs. So in some sense, it's kind of a. It's kind of a dumb thing to bring up. But this is extremely stressful for the marriage. And when you don't discover until your late 30s or 40s or 50s all these problems, you don't want to blow up the marriage. You don't want to, you know, wreck the family for your children. But this stuff can really drive a wedge between couples. And it could, you know, and it's not like I think everyone who doubts or questions or disbelieves would want to tell their spouse first. But if you fear your spouse is going to divorce you or take the kids or malign you, you may not feel safe talking to the person that you should talk to most. And of course, that would drive someone to need to talk to somebody. Fortunately, you had Yuha, and you're not going to be cheating with Yuha anytime soon. Right? Not everybody has yuha. Right?

Ana Reading [00:21:08] Everybody should have a yuha.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Everybody should have a yuha. I want my own Yuha.

Ana Reading [00:21:14] But I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] What's that?

Ana Reading [00:21:17] I said I'm not sharing. Okay, but I was only kidding.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Yeah, but of course, there's infidelity when you're driven to not be able to talk about the most sacred and important things in your life, or distressing or troubling or sad things. When you can't talk to your spouse about that, either because you're scared or they won't let you, or they won't want you to, or they reject you when you try, then you're at risk because you're going to be confiding in other people and you'll develop feelings for them eventually in many instances. And I'm not justifying adultery affairs, but that's just reality. And by the way, if a believing spouse feels alienated, they're likely to cheat, too, you know, whether or not it

Ana Reading [00:22:01] comes out, I think, and sometimes maybe, you know, because some of the reasons why we got married, it was like, this was a returned missionary. This was a good candidate. And sometimes you do find out that this person is not a good match, you know, and sometimes, you know, and this is something that the therapist also, you know, Bill, at first he was just like, get so upset at me that I would even say that. I said, maybe we don't match. And he would also say, look, we're going to go through this therapy, and you may find out at the end that you do not, you know, match each other or Fit with each other, don't work out as a couple. And that's an okay path too, you know. And so as it. You know, as it's turned out and I. It's not the end yet, you know, I don't know. But we have rediscovered that we have a lot in common, you know, that. And it was, like, only just recently, Bill said, and I think it's not just the woman who has to play a certain role in a patriarchal system. The man as well. And he was, like, always feeling like he had to look out for me. He had to protect me. He had to put his own needs on the back burner. And I said, no, now you need to find out what you want as well and what actually. Who you are. And that's really difficult still for him. I've already gone through this process, you know, and that's probably what he also, for him, seemed or perceived as being selfish, because I was discovering what I actually want and who I actually am and what my wishes are and what makes me happy and what doesn't, etc. And wasn't just thinking what is right and wrong and what should I do and what shouldn't I do, you know? And so that, for him is also a new concept. And we're finding out as we're doing this, this is kind of rekindling our marriage, actually. But, yes, it was looking like it was dying, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah. And if you don't get help and support, it can definitely kill your marriage. But that's why I named our new project, our new podcast, the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. This can be the best thing that ever happens to your marriage because all of a sudden, you have to talk authentically. You have to sort of let the old marriage die, and you don't want to let a marriage die, but in reality, you're different. Bill's different. The foundation of your marriage has crumbled, and you have to either let that marriage die and. And then say, bill, here's who I am now. And Bill says, well, here's who I am now. And then you have to make a new marriage contract, which says we can no longer base this marriage on mutual agreement and belief in the church. So do you still want to be married to me? Do I still want to be married to you? And if so, what do we build our marriage upon if it's not on the church? And so many people have this misunderstanding that, oh, we don't agree about the church anymore, so we have nothing in common. That's the Dumbest, most ridiculous conclusion I've ever seen. You still believe in honesty, truth, kindness, children, family, love, health, intimacy. You still share 99% of your values and beliefs. It's just these symbols and myths and religious doctrines that are different. And in some ways those seem massive, but in reality, they're very, very small.

Ana Reading [00:25:43] In fact, just this week, I think we were talking about, he says, you just changed the rules is how he put it. And I said, well, you know, yes, I found out that some things were not real. You know, the foundations of the church. You called it a myth. Exactly. They were not real. But I said to him, but some things are real. You are real. My kids are real. Our relationships are real. And I still believe in those, you know, and I still have morals, and they're not that much different from how they were before. And in fact, that was actually, for me, a very interesting thing to figure out where my morals come from now. And like, on each issue, I would think, what do I think? You know, what feels right, what makes sense, what brings the most help or the most good to others, and what is the most hurtful. Whether it was especially sexuality, for example. And I told them, I said, you know, I don't believe any more sexuality before marriage is wrong. Because if it's two consenting adults that want to have this, that's perfectly fine. It has nothing to do with morality. You know, there's other issues. You know, are they ready? Are they healthy? Are they protecting themselves so they don't bring children to the world that they're not ready for and all these things. But it's not an issue, is it good or bad? But I said to him, to cheat on a spouse, that to me, is still immoral, not because of the sexual act, but because I am betraying someone's, you know, like I'm betraying someone.

John Dehlin [00:27:34] But not because heavenly Father sheds a tear or because angels will mark it in heaven, just because I would be hurting him. Yeah, exactly.

Ana Reading [00:27:42] I would be hurting him. And I said, and so that would be wrong because of that, in my book, that doesn't mean, you know, people don't do it or whatever, but. And maybe if one had an open marriage, you know, some people can do that. I think it's very rarely does that work. But I wouldn't judge someone if they had. But we don't have that. Most people can't have that. Most people would feel betrayed and hurt. And so to me, it's wrong, you know, so basically, you know, your morals come out of. Out of reason. What's good and what's bad and in the sense of what hurts and what helps, you know. And that, to me, is a lot less arbitrary than some God saying homosexuals can never have love in their life or are somehow evil or perverted. No, you know, we now know anyway from science that it's just a normal occurrence that some people are going to be homosexual, and why shouldn't they have all the same things we have? That just makes sense. It's just reason. And so to me, you know, I feel like in some ways I am maybe more moral than before, because now I can't just defer it to someone else. I have to think about it myself. What do I think? And I am accountable and responsible for what I choose and what I do. I can't say, well, the prophet said it or God said it, and you're

John Dehlin [00:29:23] not doing it for some reward in heaven or out of some fear of a negative consequence. You're doing it because it's what you want to do.

Ana Reading [00:29:32] Exactly. And like, I was reading this nice little story by a German writer called Bertolt Brecht. He said, this man, Mr. Koiner, he was asked, you know, do you believe in a God? And then Mr. Coiner said, well, does it make a difference whether I believe? Whether you believe in God or not? If the answer is yes, then you need God, you know, And I thought that was such a brilliant story. I actually don't need one because it makes no difference to me. You know, I would be the same person, you know, but some people maybe do. Some people without a God would maybe go out and do all sorts of crazy things, and then it's better if

John Dehlin [00:30:17] they have one, you know, and they should be respected. I'm coming around to believing that belief should be respected. People tend to believe what they need and what they want and what brings them joy or safety or comfort, and we need to just be respectful of lots of different paths.

Ana Reading [00:30:39] Yes. And, you know, at the church also can be good for many people. Like this friend Isis. You know, it basically saved her when she was in a really dark place in her life. And so she feels, even though she has her own adaptation of the church, you know, she feels great loyalty and love for it. And, you know, so for her, it's a good place. And for many of my other friends, too.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Part of why she's able to do it is because she's a Mormon on her own terms, and she really is.

Ana Reading [00:31:06] Yes, she is. She is. Why don't you just do that? She said to me why don't you just do it like me? But she does. I told her that doesn't work for me, you know, I didn't grow up that way. I don't see any point in it, you know, it would be like a waste of time for me. I can't do that. But for her it gives her something and so it's fantastic, you know, and we have like this total respect for each, each other's path and, and neither one of us finds the other one silly for doing that. You know, it's like, and I have some other friends like that, this mutual teacher that I mentioned earlier and, and others, you know, that just to them, the church gives them a lot, so that's a good place for them. And I think that for my kids at this point still too, at least for my older two and possibly my youngest, you know, so as long as it's that way, I can support that, you know.

Emotional Intimacy and Personal Authenticity

John Dehlin [00:32:10] So one thing that was coming to mind earlier that I just wanted to state is one of the real important dynamics that happens between a mixed faith Mormon couple. You know, certainly marriage is hard enough without religious differences and sometimes the marriage is just bad. And the faith crisis and the mixed faith marriage doesn't hurt the marriage, it reveals the marriage. It shines a huge spotlight on the marriage and shows all the blemishes and the weaknesses and the dysfunctions that were successfully hidden by this rigid, devout orthodoxy where both of you are so committed to the church that you don't have time. You're so busy serving your colleagues and raising kids and working, you don't have time to actually look at the marriage and consider its health. And in that way, so many Mormon marriages are just dysfunctional, but no one has the time to even notice or they just ignore it and self medicate. That's why Utah has some of the highest rates of depression and prescription drug abuse and suicidality, especially even among women, not just youth, but women, because so many people are in these terrible, toxic, lifeless intimacy less marriages and religion allows them to hide that. So once the faith crisis happens with one of the partners and the marriage is exposed for what it is, the believer is going to not be happy in the marriage, but the church won't allow them necessarily unless they're encouraged explicitly to divorce their non believing partner, they're going to not want to get divorced because family is the most important thing and you're supposed to hang on no matter what. So they're often willing to hang on to the marriage even if it's miserable and it's like, okay, well our marriage sucks. But Mormons don't get divorced and families are eternal.

Ana Reading [00:34:02] So yeah, I know several like this.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] We'll just live separate lives. And you know, that may work for some, but that's particularly difficult. Sad for the believer, but it's also often a non starter for the nonbeliever. Because once the doubt or non believer has this faith crisis, they may not believe in an afterlife, they may not believe in a celestial kingdom, they may believe that this is the only life that they're ever going to have. And in that case, just white knuckling a miserable, pathetic marriage is not, is not tenable. They're like, I may only have two or three decade good decades left and if I don't want to just be, I don't want to just be tolerated, I don't want to just be pitied and I don't want to live as this disappointment to my spouse. I want to be celebrated and loved and embraced as a partner. And so, you know, sometimes a mixed faith marriage may lead to a divorce, but it's not because people aren't committed or they don't have integrity or character. It's because they don't want to choose to live a miserable existence with the few remaining years that they may have in existence. Did you relate to that?

Ana Reading [00:35:19] Yeah, this is exactly what I said to Bill. I said, I am not enduring to the end anymore, you know, and it's exactly what you said. But even before my faith crisis, I have some friends like this that live in marriages like this. And it is just, oh, well, we've been married in the temple. We just kind of have to hold out. And I never wanted to do that. But maybe before I wouldn't have had the courage, you know, I would have thought, well, I have to kind of, because it's the right thing to do. And now it's exactly like you said. I feel like I only have this life and I need to live it as best as I can. I need to live every moment and enjoy it. And I don't want to live in a loveless life and especially not with someone that endures me, you know, And I said that to Bill. I said, as long as you are angry with me, as long as you are so upset that you can barely look my way and I can't be myself, you know, we can't, this won't work. But I said to him also, but I will give us time, you know, I can't expect us, you know, to be different from like that he can just overcome this in one week. But, you know, having said that, time doesn't mean decades. I know. And so it's. Yeah, I want to be in a happy relationship. At the same time, though, I'm a bit of a realist, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, being alone is also not so much fun, so I'm willing to work at it. You know, I was willing even when it was really difficult because I felt it was worth trying. And plus, you know, we have a family. There's our kids. Yeah, they're grown, but still, you know, it's like we belong together. And it would be very difficult on them, too.

John Dehlin [00:37:26] We have a lot of really wonderful comments coming in and questions, so I'm just going to read a few. Is that okay? A little dialogue?

Ana Reading [00:37:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] So Jenny writes, keep showing up authentically. Quote, showing up creates your destiny, while not showing up creates your fate. So Jenny is arguing for a life of authenticity.

Ana Reading [00:37:44] I think I'm with you, Jenny.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Yeah. Victoria writes, I love Mormon stories so much. I love the honesty. I love the open and genuine conversations. It's a breath of fresh air. Victoria, maybe you're next. Maybe. We need to interview you for Mormon Stories podcast. Let us know if you're interested. Jenny also writes, humans are starved for authentic love. And I call it emotional intimacy as well. We are. We are starved for emotional intimacy. And I do retreats and workshops on this, and. And I talk a lot about this in my coaching. There's no such thing as a Relief Society lesson or an Elders Quorum lesson on emotional intimacy. The church doesn't talk about it. In fact, they've corrupted the term intimacy to be synonymous with sex. And so now there's just no talk in Mormonism about what the real core human need is for survival and thriving, and that's emotional intimacy. And so much of how we're raised in an orthodox religion is actually an enemy to or oppositional to what healthy emotional intimacy is. Because at the core of emotional intimacy is this sort of foundation of safe, unconditional love. And if your love is conditioned on mutual agreement about the church and obedience to the church, then at its core, the love is not unconditional. It's conditional. And, of course, you need to have similarities and values. You need to have an agreement about boundaries. So I'm not saying true, unconditional love can exist in the sense that, you know, you can't have a spouse that beats you and cheats on you and the drug abuser, and you expect that to be a healthy Happy marriage, that's going to be a non starter. So in one sense, I don't believe in true unconditional love, but in the other sense, after there's a basic fundamental agreement of values and boundaries and morals and standards, there cannot be a true healthy emotional intimacy without unconditional love. And again, belief, especially in 2019, belief, is so fragile, religious belief is so tenuous. It is a fragile sandy foundation upon which to build a marriage. And so no one should build their marriage in 2019 on religious belief, at least in the developed world. Because we know with the rise of the nuns, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people are losing their religious faith daily, weekly, monthly, and are leaving their faith. And so if your marriage is built on religion, you know, we sing that song in primary. The wise man builds his house upon the rock. The foolish man builds his house upon the sand. In 2019, to build your religion, to build your marriage on religion, is to build your marriage on a sandy foundation that can and likely will erode from under your feet in a matter of years, if not months, if not weeks, because that's how tenuous it is. That's how tenuous religious belief is in the 21st century. Anyway, that's my little rant. Anything you want to say about that?

Ana Reading [00:41:06] Only that I agree. I agree. And I think that emotional intimacy is difficult when you're trying to fit a role and you can't be your true self, you know, you can't say what you really think or you really feel because it might not be appropriate or because you're somehow trying to be this person that maybe you're not. And this is one of the things that I, that I've learned, you know, that I just can be myself now, you know, and it's okay, you know, like there was always this. Even though I had decided not to really believe in all the guilt things anymore, I still very much bought into them. And only now, you know, I'm starting to like free myself of that and just think that all my, also mine positive and my negative feelings, they're all okay. They're just feelings that I have, you know, and now I have to figure out what I do with them. And I'm responsible for my actions with them. But it's not bad to feel jealous or angry or something like that. It's just part of the human experience. And how can you be authentic when you don't allow yourself to have these feelings, you know, I shouldn't feel that, you know, and I should only be like this and then you can't really connect.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] You know, Tamara writes that she. Her husband or spouse or partner, I'm not sure who, they're getting along so much better because Tamara's requiring so much less perfection of herself and of her partner. She's admitting that she doesn't hold him to unnatural standards, and now she can just love her partner for who he is. So that's another vote from Tamra for a more unconditional love instead of a conditional love that's stressed out by both people trying to live up to unattainable levels of perfection.

Ana Reading [00:43:02] Yeah. And, you know, I noticed that when I. One of the times when I went back to church because of something that the kids had, you know, and that I stayed for the entire three hours, and in the last lesson was Relief Society. And I was like, 20 minutes into relief Society, and I felt all guilty again. I thought, what's going on? You know, And I already thought, I should do this, I should do that. And it wasn't even related to what she was talking about. Then I realized what was happening, and I thought, stop. You know, no, you're okay the way you are, and that doesn't mean I can't do more in my life or do other things, but I'm okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] You know, you're whole, you're perfect, you're imperfection. Right?

Ana Reading [00:43:45] Yes. Yes. And it was just interesting how that got triggered right away when I was there again, by stuff that was being said and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Yeah. Because that wiring, that conditioning runs really deep. Tamara also says she's so glad she stumbled onto this podcast. So many similarities to her live Tamara. Share it with everyone. Let the whole world know. Mormon Stories is here to support people. We're glad you joined us. PJ writes, I'm glad our marriage was just not all about church. And discovering that, that and so much more is so helpful. Yes. And my morals are mine and come from me and not a specific church. That's such a beautiful realization when we realize that we're just. We can be moral because we want to be moral and that the church has no monopoly on morality, which someone shared earlier. People are loving your comment that people should be chosen over myth. Right. That the church really is a myth. And that doesn't mean. That's not even meant to be derogatory. It's just stories that were taught in the Bible, in the Old Testament, the New Testament. Check out David Bacavoi's interview. The Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon. It's all pseudepigrapha. It's all myth, it's all story, and none of it's really historical in a historical sense. And so people should always trump religion. Always. People should be.

Ana Reading [00:45:11] And myths can be uplifting and can be, you know, inspiring.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Les Miserables.

Ana Reading [00:45:17] I love fiction. I mean, after all, I'm a German literature teacher. I love literature, you know, and so. And we can learn a lot. I mean, there are still truths from these myths to be learned, you know? Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Oh, it's like Les Miserables. What's more true than Les Arabs, Right?

Ana Reading [00:45:36] Exactly. But when you start taking them literally, that's when they become dangerous, you know, because then it's like here it said that, you know, if you shouldn't eat pork or whatever, you know, you pick out, and you can go all the way to the Taliban where, you know, a woman gets stoned because you're taking something literal.

Finding Meaning and Identity After Leaving

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Joe wants to know from you, Ana, what gives your life meaning now that you don't believe in the church or even necessarily in a God or an afterlife? What gives your life meaning now, and how's that different from the period of your church membership? Thanks, Joe, for the question.

Ana Reading [00:46:17] Okay. Yeah, that was hard at first. You know, there was sort of like this void. So if all of this isn't true, how do I find meaning? But I found I still believe in some kind of a spirituality. And that means, like, I love meditating. I love secular Buddhism. I love, you know, trying to live in the now and experience every moment more fully, more aware, more awake, and that it feels like it's like a new life, you know, it feels like I feel much more awake and alive than I did before. And that's my meaning. So the meaning is, now what I. What I give it, you know, to love myself, to love other people, to love the whole planet and the animals on it and everything, to just make this a better world. And, you know, while I was saying earlier when I was 20 and I was reading Nietzsche and all those things, you know, it scared me to no end that maybe there is no God and that there is no afterlife. But now it doesn't scare me anymore. It just. It's okay for me now because I am. I love my life now. I love my relationships. I love. I love all the experiences that I have, and. And that's what I get my meaning from. Of course, sometimes I am sad that this will not continue forever. Maybe I don't think it does, but maybe I'm open that maybe it does. That would be a wonderful surprise. And so There are moments when I'm sad about this. It is the basic human predicament, you know, that we die, but at the same time, you know, there. It also gives this life so much preciousness, you know, it's, like, so special because it is limited. You know, it does end. Probably if you went on and on forever and ever here, we wouldn't. We wouldn't value it as much. I don't know. So at least I feel like I value every moment a lot more than I did before. And so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] Lisa asks, why are we just talking about dysfunctional marriage? Why aren't we also talking about dysfunctional families? She's saying that sometimes we get so caught up in Mormonism and serving that we lose focus and don't realize that our way of being Mormon can destroy a family, not just a marriage. Go ahead.

Ana Reading [00:49:07] Yeah. No, I was just gonna say earlier that I feel like I have a much better relationship with my kids now than I did before. I was, like, always worried about them. What if they don't stay in the church? What if they don't get married in the temple? What if they fall away like that? I was like, always, what if they try a beer?

John Dehlin [00:49:25] What if they have sex?

Ana Reading [00:49:26] Oh, my gosh, you know, what if something happens? And now I don't have that anymore. It's so weird. I feel a lot less afraid than I did before, and I don't understand the paradox of this. Before, when I believed in a loving heavenly father, I was all powerful.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] An all powerful, loving, heavenly father.

Ana Reading [00:49:46] Right. I am less afraid now because now I just know. I know there's bad stuff in the world. Bad stuff sometimes happens, good stuff happens. But you can always, like, make the best of whatever happens. You take what comes and you adapt and you live with that. And, like, I feel now so open about my kids. They can do whatever they want, whatever they choose, and it's all fine with me. You know, it's, like, exciting to watch what. What they do, and when they make mistakes, they make mistakes. And when they do great things, then I'm happy and I feel much more relaxed about it. So, yeah, I think the way it was before, even though I felt we had a good family, there was a certain dysfunctionality in it, that it was controlling. Like, I tried from very early on to just get them on this one path. Obviously, I was quite successful at it, since they're still there. But even that's fine, you know, if that's what they want to do and if that's where they're happy. Yeah, right. So I feel a lot, a lot more or a lot less worried than I did before.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Glenn writes he appreciates us saying that believers should be respected as well. Glenn says in his experience, some of the ex Mormon groups he has found are less than accepting of believers in God in Christ. Most were atheists, and I would have been just as comfortable going to church with my lack of Mormon belief and being judged there, but giving the choice I don't want to go to either. In other words, he's saying sometimes ex Mormons can be less tolerant or just as intolerant as believing Mormons. And he's grateful that Mormon Stories is a place that strives to be affirming of both non belief and belief. And thanks, Glenn, for saying that. And we do try to do that, and we've always tried to do that.

Ana Reading [00:51:45] And this is something that has helped me a lot from listening to Mormon Stories, you know, just seeing so different points of views. And sometimes they were uncomfortable, you know, they were uncomfortable, let's say, you know, the Denver Snuffer people. And to me it was like a bit uncomfortable. But then, you know, I thought, why? You know, I can, I can respect that too if somebody wants. It wouldn't be for me, but that's okay. Nobody's forcing me, you know, and if that is true for them and makes them happy, that's okay too, you know, so, yeah, you're, you're this. I think it was Glenn. Right. He's very right, that sometimes one just becomes the same on the other side, you know, as if you just been reversed and now you're trying to get everyone to get, to leave the church and, and to see how horrible it is. And, and that's. I think that's just as bad.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] It's like a reverse missionary.

Ana Reading [00:52:44] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] Sarah writes, getting rid of the elephant in the room by being yourself and saying what you feel is great advice. She says, I always hate the feeling of that elephant being there. It's true. Families and marriages should be the place where everything can be discussed. There should be no elephant in the room that isn't addressed immediately. And it's toxic to live with emotions and major issues unaddressed. It kills you, it eats away, it causes depression, it causes anxiety. It can cause physical disorders that emerge from the internal stress that you experience. So you can literally develop physical illnesses and ailments when you internalize emotions and don't talk about things you need to talk about and hide and cover up what you're thinking, what you're feeling, and

Ana Reading [00:53:43] I just simply didn't want to live that way. I just don't, you know, and so I felt like there were moments when I. When I felt like I had ended up in the wrong life, you know, I thought it was like. Felt like one morning I woke up and it was the wrong life, you know, my. I didn't fit, you know, I felt like a misfit in my own life. And that was a horrible feeling.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] Yeah, it's also, it's also horrible to feel like your kids look down on you, your kids feel like you're a disappointment. What was that like?

Ana Reading [00:54:19] Well, like you just said, horrible. And especially, you know, having come from the family, I did, and I worked so hard at having a great relationship with my kids. And I had that, you know, and I think they're wonderful kids. And we had such a good relationship. Absolutely wonderful. They talked to me about everything I felt and I talked to them. And then all of a sudden I did this to them and it was very disrupting to them and it really shook their whole world. And it upset me that I had to do this to them. And it was like my sister in law wrote to me, she's my brother's wife. After a few months had passed, she wrote to me this message saying, you know, every night since I had left or since my brother had told her she had cried every night. And how could I make my kids suffer like this, you know, and it was like I was so upset by this message and of course I don't believe she cried every night, I really don't, but that she had to put this guilt on me. You've made your kids suffer. And yeah, finally I wrote back that I was just trying to be true to myself. And I knew that my kids had a hard time with it, but that was between them and me. And I think that it was good for them in the long run too, you know, because they learned a lot. They have become better people because of it. It's like one time, Natasha, who's my oldest, the one that's married, my oldest girl, one of her visiting teachers was giving her some kind of a lesson about, you know, what to do when we have unbelieving family members and stuff. And Natasha was sort of half listening and then she said, are you talking about my mom? Yeah, well, yeah, you know, isn't that really hard? She says, no, that's not hard. My mom has chosen a different path and it's better for her and I support her and I don't want her to come back. You know, and then when she told me this, I said, good for you. I couldn't believe it. It touched me so much, you know, and she teaches primary kids and she like 11 year olds and this one 11 year old asked her, my aunt doesn't go to church anymore. Why doesn't she believe anymore? And then Natasha said, well, my mom doesn't go either. The church isn't right for everyone, you know. And I said, you said that. And so it shows that they have become more open, more accepting, and they're teaching that also in the church that's bringing in a different culture. And now they were challenged again when Alina came back from her mission early and they were so loving and supportive. Nobody in the family gave her the feeling that she had failed or that somehow she should have stayed longer. They were so supportive and they were just all saying how happy they were she was here and how courageous she had been and, you know, to do what she felt was the right thing for her. And so, yes, they were suffering, but then that's part of the human condition. And they learned and they grew. Yeah, but while you see them suffer and you know you're the cause of it, it's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] Penny actually says that she and her husband were on a panel for the church a few months ago on emotional intimacy. So that's really good to hear. The church is waking up. Michael says, thanks to us both. He really enjoys these perspectives. PJ writes, she agrees. Do not build your marriage on a religion. PJ writes, it's freeing to be yourself. Shelly writes, my marriage finally began to be real after I left the church. I love my husband so much more. And Shelly adds, the sex is way better. Thank you for sharing, Shelley. We're happy for you and your husband. Shelly also says she lost 60 pounds after she stopped believing. So that's called the Ex Mormon Diet is what that's called.

Ana Reading [00:58:56] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Nancy writes, unconditional love does not require a person to stay in an abusive relationship. You can still love them unconditionally but be out of the situation. And that's true. Sometimes these relationships can get abusive, and we don't encourage that to stay in abusive relationships. So many comments from listeners. Tasha writes, the meaning of life is whatever meaning you give it. When you have less of it, not thinking or believing you are getting another one and makes you automatically value it more. That's right, Tasha. That's what many people end up finding. Tamara writes, the morals were brought up when I told my husband I was never going back. When I Left, I realized I was good without religion. One of the quotes that helped me realize how damaging the church was came from Sherry Dew. She made a comment in a book about our fallen nature that is bad. And then she writes, we are naturally bad. Question mark. My soul screamed, no. Empathy came before religion. So Tamra is rejecting the idea that we're all. The traditional Christian idea that we're all fallen and irredeemable before God.

Ana Reading [01:00:16] Yeah. I like this so much better than now. I think of myself not as a fallen person, the natural man that has to somehow get back, but I think of myself now as whole and just sometimes confused. Sometimes I do stuff that's not so good because I don't know better, but not because I'm bad. You know, it's like. It's like underneath, I'm just good and whole, and that's such a different perspective.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Yeah, you're fundamentally whole and complete. Not broken in bed.

Ana Reading [01:00:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Brandon asks. He says so many people have gone beyond the church and left. All tell their story and sound so happy, like their life is full. Is there anything bad with not being a part of the church anymore, Anna? Is it all rainbows and gumdrops and lollipops and jelly beans?

Ana Reading [01:01:08] Of course. No. No.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Are we just. Are we just polishing a turd? Are we just making it sound awesome when it's really tragic and sad?

Ana Reading [01:01:22] Well, no, I think there's some of both. Of course you're gonna have down days, and it's been almost five years, and it's a lot better now. But, you know, had I done this interview after one year, I would have not had much positive to say, you know, so at first, it's. It's really hard. It's like you've lost a loved one. You know, that. That thing of grief you really go through, that. I was. I was in denial. I was angry. I was angry for quite some time, and then I was really depressed. And that's as recent as last September, October, etc. And actually all summer and like, into October, I was just feeling so down. I thought, well, what's. You know, what's there to live for anymore? And this relationship is difficult, and my kids don't need me anymore, and, you know, this kind of thing. And of course I had good days, but there was, like, this general feeling, it's pointless. Then I went and researched on grief, and I realized, oh, you're just going through this. And that actually helped. It gave me some distance. I thought, okay, you're gonna get better. And I did and it was. I can't say it was one. One day or something, but of course, one has throwbacks. But generally, I feel like now I can accept this now, you know, and I am now excited about life. But they were. They were difficult things. And, you know, there's some. The community that was nice that sometimes you miss until you find a new one. And I think what. What was the hardest thing to miss or to lose was this certainty. You know, everything was clear and it made sense. And there was going to be this life after death, and I was going to become a God, and I was going to learn ballet and learn every instrument and do all these fun things. And that's kind of sad to give up. You know, I did the Camino de Santiago after I lost my faith. That's the way in Spain to go all through Spain and to go to Santiago de Compostela. It's a Catholic pilgrimage. And I did that just as a way of a spiritual journey and stuff. And I met this guy from New York who had been a former Jesuit, and he got so excited when he heard that I was a Mormon who had lost her faith. And we talked for, like, hours and hours for eight days and very interesting talks. And I explained all this stuff about Mormonism to him, and I told him about the plan of salvation. And when he heard it, he said, wow, that's amazing. That's so cool. And he says, and you gave all that up for coffee? And so. And there were moments when it felt like that, you know, that I had given up all this fantastic story for what? For coffee and an occasional tonic or something, you know, but of course, you know, I didn't. You know, I gained so much more. I gained freedom to choose my own life. Now there's not just this one path, you know, I can do all these different things. I feel like it's much more exciting now. And like, for example, what I'm. Should I tell now what I've planned for the.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Yeah, let's do it. We have. About the Facebook livestream ends at four hours, so how much do we have? We have eight minutes left.

Ana Reading [01:05:27] We should probably push this. Well, then I will tell it now. It's just like, I am planning on going. I've taken this unpaid leave from work for three months, and I'm planning to go to India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, by myself. And it's something I wanted to do when I was young. I wanted to travel like this, but it wasn't in the plan, you know, it was like going on a mission, getting Married, having children. And I don't think I would have done that had I left the church. It wouldn't have been in the plan. It's not something you do, you know. But now I am doing that. And, you know, that's the thing. These kinds of options are open to me now, and I am super excited about it and excited to what I will do afterwards, too. And it was kind of hard for Bill to accept that, but he is doing that now. He's realizing it's really important to me. And so, yeah, not everything is rosy, but at the moment, I'm very excited because I get to fulfill one of my dreams and I want to write a book. And hopefully I will do that, too.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] You absolutely must write a book. You are a born author and brilliant and wise, and everybody who's listened to today's episode will agree. I forbid you to not write a book.

Ana Reading [01:06:54] Okay, I will do it. So, yeah, that's basically.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] That's going to be your eat, pray, love moment. But maybe without the love. Is that right? Or maybe without the praying, it'll just be eating

Ana Reading [01:07:13] and get sick. Maybe. But no, I am going to a meditation center. So there will be some of that praying.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Secular. Secular praying.

Ana Reading [01:07:25] Exactly. Mindfulness and love in the more general sense. Right?

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Love of self.

Ana Reading [01:07:32] Love of self and love of meeting new people and all that.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] And love of mankind and the universe.

Ana Reading [01:07:41] Exactly.

Listener Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Well, there are so many amazing comments pouring in, we're not going to be able to read them all. I just want to refer any of our listeners to the comments. There's so many good things people are saying.

Ana Reading [01:07:56] I'll have to go read them.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Yeah, yeah. Great stuff. I wish we could address them all. I want to thank all our listeners today for joining in. You guys made everything better. I'll read Martine's comment. She writes, great conversation with the wonderful woman. I, too, moved away from Mormon faith while my husband served as bishop. He was understandably defensive at the time, but fortunately, except for his mission, he was never a literal believer. So even as a bishop, he was very open to different ways of believing, but was still shocked to discover how far I'd strayed from the Mormon path, even from believing in God. But I've been so fortunate since we are now pretty much on the same page.

Ana Reading [01:08:33] We love our team.

John Dehlin [01:08:35] We're so happy that that was the outcome for you. We want to encourage all our listeners to have hope, to don't give up on your believing family and friends. Don't give up on your marriage. Don't give up on yourself, you can find healing, you can find joy. Listen to other Faith Crisis narratives on Mormon Stories and elsewhere. Find a coach, find a therapist, find community and hold on and do the work. And you can find out that this faith crisis is a gift, that it improves your life, improves your mental health. You can lose weight, you can have better sex, you can have a better marriage. It can become the best thing that ever happened to you. And by the way, that doesn't mean you have to leave the church. There are plenty of people that go through a faith crisis, stay in the church and just have a healthier relationship with themselves and the church and their spouse while staying in. That's all possible. And that's what the Gift of the Faith Crisis podcast is about. Check us out there@mormonfaithcrisis.com and that's what the events are that we hold, and that's what Mormon Stories is about. So we want to thank everyone who's made Mormon Stories possible, all the donors, the board of directors, Cody Layton, who does our editing, and you, our listeners. Please do all you can to support Mormon Stories by liking our Facebook page by giving us a positive review. Same on itunes. Supporting us financially. You can donate to Mormon Stories by clicking on the donate button at the top right. 10, 20, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. If you love this programming, if you value it, please support makes a difference. What do you want to leave us with as we just have a few minutes left? Two minutes left on. How would you like to end this episode?

Ana Reading [01:10:20] Well, it's just a thought that came through my head as you were talking. It's like there's as many paths as there are people. There is not one path for everyone. And I think everyone should be able to find their own path. And that's the exciting thing, you know, and we can allow other people to have their path and we can support them in their path. And to me, that's just wonderful. That's what I've learned. I've become so much more open of all sorts of different walks of life and paths. And thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation and also especially hearing all the comments. And thanks for all of your support.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Yeah. And thank you for being my friend. Ana, I consider you a dear friend and I'm grateful to know you and I'm grateful for Bill. I'm grateful for your wonderful children. I've met two or three of the four, I think, and I love your family. So I hope we can hang out more in the weeks, years, months ahead.

Ana Reading [01:11:30] I hope so. I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Oh, go ahead.

Ana Reading [01:11:34] No, I was only going to say. I forgot to say. What I really wanted to say is also that I'm really grateful for Sam Young Book came to Switzerland and was my first person to talk to here. So just connected by accident. I saw him on Facebook and saw that he's in Switzerland and he did a little taqueria for me or with me. And that was such a tremendous moment that there was somebody I could talk to here in Switzerland. So I'm very grateful for him, too. So shout out to Sam.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] Absolutely. We love Sam and we support him and thanks for that. And if any of you in Europe want to hold a workshop or retreat in 2019, reach out to me. We just need someone to organize it and plan it. And we're putting a little committee together. We would love to bring a faith crisis workshop or retreat to Europe because so many people need it there. I didn't realize.

Ana Reading [01:12:30] And I will be going.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Yeah. So thank you. And so please reach out at drjohndelin or mormonfaithcrisismail.com or mormonstoriesmail.com however you reach out, reach out because we want to bring these events not only to Europe, but wherever you live. If you need a faith crisis workshop, please don't hesitate to reach out and we'll bring one to wherever you live. All right. Love you, Ana. Thank you so much.

Ana Reading [01:12:58] Bye. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] Our love to Bill and your wonderful family. And again, thanks to all our listeners who tuned in today. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any questions or comments and please continue supporting us. It makes all the difference in the world. Take care, everybody. Love you. And we'll see you again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Ana Reading [01:13:20] Bye Bye.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest 3 [01:14:01] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Come calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right these guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lines are drawn in front of you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief it says who we want of me There is a wise part of you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.