Introduction and Bill Reel's Background

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 9, 2017 and I am very excited today to be interviewing Bill Real, the host of Mormon discussion podcast Bill. Really quickly, I think I'm hearing my voice in your background. Is that.

Bill Reel [00:00:58] Let me turn her down to a little bit here.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Okay, so we're starting really early in the morning at 7:30am Mountain Time. We've never done a podcast this early. We already have 25 people joining us, so I think we're gonna have a pretty good audience, even though people weren't expecting it. I'm really excited to interview Bill. This is probably at least the third time I've had Bill on Mormon Stories podcast. Some of you will remember that I had Bill on years ago when he was an active bishop in the Mormon Church. So it's definitely the first time I've ever interviewed a sitting bishop. Later on, Bill had a big dust up with Fair Mormon with the apologists and we had him back for that. And I think this is my third time to have Bill on Bill. Is that right? Is this your third time?

Bill Reel [00:01:48] This is third time to be on John. Grateful for the chance to sit down with you and with your audience.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Great to have you. Really quickly while people are joining, I'm going to make just a few very quick announcements. I've received good feedback that the announcements take too long on our episodes, so I'm going to make them really quick. We have a Mixed Faith marriage retreat with Dr. Julia de Azevedo Hanks this Friday and Saturday. I'm really excited about that. Seattle, Washington will be September 14th and 15th a workshop Sydney, Australia October 20th, 22nd San Francisco Bay Area November 9th through 10th we're looking for events to hold locations to hold events in 2018. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you want us to bring a workshop or retreat to your city anywhere in the world. And of course we have the Mormon Stories Cruise to the Bahamas October 24th through 28th, 2018. Details for all these events are@mormonstories.org events. And I'm just going to say that the reason why we advertise these events is because they help people. There are a lot of people struggling with religious transitions, with marriages, with mental health, with spirituality, with raising children. And we host these events to help save marriages, save lives, improve emotional health, etc. So that's why we announce them. We have some upcoming topics we're going to be talking about opiate addiction on Mormon stories. We're going to do more interviews on the Lamanites, a lot of more cool stories in the weeks and months ahead. So do stay tuned really quickly. The reason why we do these Facebook Live interviews is because we really want them to be interactive. So I want to invite listeners who are listening live to please start posting questions and comments live to the Facebook feed because we like to incorporate those. But in addition, I let a bunch of my listeners know that we were interviewing Bill and we have dozens and dozens of questions that have come in for Bill. So I'm really excited to have incorporated those into an outline. Finally, we're going to be interviewing Grant Palmer tonight. Grant Palmer is weeks or months away from leaving this earth, so to speak. He has cancer of the liver and he's definitely in his last few weeks or months. We did already did a tribute to him, but he has a new book out and the book is called Restoring Leaving Mormon Jesus for Jesus of the Gospels. And it's an interesting book. Two of the main things that Grant says are groundbreaking about this book, there's a chapter in the end about Joseph Smith possibly committing treason. I think that's a chapter worth looking into. I found it interesting. It may not be news for others, but it was interesting for me. And then he's got a chapter on polygamy and specifically concubinage. He says that we've talked a lot about polygamy and adultery and polyandry. What we haven't talked about is Joseph practicing what he calls in here, something like the promise of Jacob or the law of Jacob, which he's saying is concubinage. So in addition, having wives, Joseph had concubines, according to Grant Palmer. So we're going to be interviewing Grant Palmer tonight. We're going to try and broadcast that live. Yes, he calls it the blessing of Jacob concubinage. So tune into that as well. And we're just really grateful to everyone who's joined with us today. So without any further ado, Bill Real thanks again for joining us. How are you?

Bill Reel [00:05:34] Oh, great, great. John, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Good. Super good. So we've got a ton of questions, so I'm just going to dive right in. We've only got about two hours. I think it's worth mentioning that you did an interview recently with Infants on Thrones podcast, and I listened to that. And I don't want to retread what they already covered, but I think it's interesting to talk, just retalk briefly about your early years prior to joining the church. And I got the sense from Infants on Thrones podcast that you had kind of a rough early childhood and early adolescence. Can you just talk briefly about that?

Converting and Marrying into the Church

Bill Reel [00:06:14] So I wouldn't say rough. I would say it was a ton of fun. I was a non member of the church. I didn't really go to any church at all other than for funerals and weddings. My mom was a Baptist, but she stopped going to church in her teenage years. My dad came from a household that was pretty agnostic, if not atheist. And through my teenage years, I started drinking when I was 12 years old. I started smoking pot when I was 14, and by the time I'm in high school, I'm even selling pot a little bit. And so the church just made a big difference. But my childhood was great. Played sports, just did all the fun things a kid did. Went outside and the kids don't do anymore. Went outside and built forts and hung out with cool friends and played when the sun went up until the sun went down every day.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And the missionaries ran into you about when?

Bill Reel [00:07:08] So I met my future wife when I was 17 years old, 16 years old, working at McDonald's. And so she asked me out on a date. She's the one who asked me. I was kind of afraid to ask her out of fear of being rejected. And so she asked me out on a date. And she was lds, active in the church, and it didn't take too long before her dad kind of put her arm around me and invited me to church and really kind of got me up and running with the missionary discussions and taking the discussions with them to learn what Mormonism was all about. And I fell in love with Mormonism from the very first minute.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Do you feel like you were kind of. Were you looking? Were you seeking? Were you in a world of pain? Was it just love? Like, what was what. What were the main draws for you when you joined?

Bill Reel [00:08:00] It was none of that. My life was. I was happy with where I was, although I can look back now and say another. Another few years of those kinds of choices and I was gonna be in a place that I didn't want to be. But at the time, I was having a blast. And so what attracted me to Mormonism really was the history and the theology and the community. Soon as I joined this church, I'm just this mustached, funky haired kid and everybody wraps their arm around me and they give me responsibilities and they tell me it's, you know, partly my responsibility to help build the kingdom of God. And so that was very intriguing, but the history and the theology were huge. The moment I started investigating the church, I start reading about Mormonism. I start reading about what, what is all in LDS theology and LDS history and just super attracted to the story of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] And as I heard in the other podcast, you sort of relished being a relatively new member, but maybe knowing more than most members in your ward about the church. Is that true?

Bill Reel [00:09:06] Yeah, I look back, it definitely was, I think, almost an arrogance. Almost a. I don't know how to explain it other than to use that word that I'm reading Fawn Brody. I know there's problems. I'm reading Book of Mormon Answer man off of the New Jerusalem site, which used to exist years and years ago, back with when AOL was in its prime and aware of farms. Whenever I went on a trip with my future in laws, I would pick up these old farm pamphlets which had the tan brown covers of paper stapled together. I just, I knew the, the basic issues that were out there. I knew the apologetic answers and felt like I was the go to guy. Whenever the missionaries had a concern with investigators bringing their minister into the conversation, whenever investigators would raise critical questions, missionaries would call me up and say, bill, you're the one we've got to take with us. And that arrogance, man, it plays into your ego. And it certainly did for me.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] It feels good to know everything, doesn't it?

Bill Reel [00:10:06] It does. Not only do you know the problems that nobody else knows, but you also know the answers that nobody else knows. And so you're right, it definitely plays into it. And, and there's certainly pride involved. And

John Dehlin [00:10:19] it.

Bill Reel [00:10:20] You kind of look at yourself as like, okay, you're in class and somebody asks a question and you know some further data points, some further historical piece of the story to bring in. And so there's almost again, I'm using the words over and over. There's obviously an arrogance there when you go to answer the question and feel like you know it all.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Yeah, it feels good. Okay, so you advance up the ranks in the church, you become bishop, and at some Point you do an interview with me. Can you recap what was turning you on to the more difficult issues as a bishop? And just tell us if you can reflect what that was like for you to come on a podcast like Mormon Stories as a bishop? If you received any grief from it, just recap that a little bit for those who didn't listen to your original story.

Serving as a Young Bishop

Bill Reel [00:11:12] So no grief at all. I was called to be a bishop at age 29, which was obviously really young. Not Thomas Monson young, but really young and serving as a bishop again. I've always been reading the history. As I mentioned, I read Fawn Brodie before I even joined the church. And about halfway through being a bishop, I don't know what it was, John. Like, I just kept reading, kept reading my. You know, maybe it's this idea of faith development and cognitive development that my brain's beginning to process information differently, and I just wake up one day and realize that this is messier than I thought it was. Like, the apologetic answers are no longer as satisfying as I thought they were. And so I'm out there looking for answers, typing stuff into searches, looking for things. And what I think is interesting, and I think this is important to note, if you go back 15 years ago, 20 years ago, like, Truman Madsen was the historian of the church, like, he's the guy telling the Joseph Smith story, and everybody looking to him because he's giving all this neat detail. And the reality is that other scholars really are not diving into that stuff, at least not in the general view of the members of the church. And yet you fast forward to today, and a guy like Truman Matzon, no offense to him, but he would be kind of a hack of a historian today. Like, that's just not the story. And yet there was no place to go back then. And so all of a sudden, the Internet just opens up, and I'm typing in, trying to find things about Joseph's treasure digging, trying to find information about the book of Abraham. And suddenly, I think for the very first time in the history of our faith, as well as the history of this world, this information is there. It's available. Anybody can get to it. And so I think the scholars and the average member have had to kind of adapt to the fact that now we all kind of know the general background and story of what's going on in Mormonism. And it's way different than the story we presented, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And so suddenly, I'm kind of right in the mud of this stuff. And one of the things I come across is your interview with Terrell Givens and your interview with Richard Bushman, and those were life changing because at a point where I thought, oh, my goodness, this is really messy. A lot of this stuff isn't adding up. And you thought there was one way in which you had to frame Mormonism. Suddenly these two scholars come on and almost give you permission to see Mormonism a different way and to kind of put it back together in a way that nobody's ever given you the chance to do before. And for me, that was just. It was huge. Like, it opened up my brain to the idea that, oh, I can do Mormonism a little bit my way.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] So you listen to those. Those interviews while you're a bishop?

Bill Reel [00:14:02] Yeah, I listen to those while I was serving as a bishop in the church. It was much later than you had done them, but I, you know, as soon as I caught those two, then I went back through all of your episodes and picked out the ones that I thought were interesting and just listened to them. Brant Gardner, a lot of the scholars. And it was right around the time that you did the Brandt Gardner episode that I reached out to you and just as a listener said, hey, I'm a sitting bishop and I just want you to kind of play that middle road. And again, looking back now, it's kind of strange because we all see the trajectories we're on, but at the time, I'm like, why can't he just play that middle road and just be completely balanced? And that's when you reached out to me and said, hey, I've never had a sitting bishop on let's have a Conversation.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] I love it. Okay, so did you finish your full term as bishop? Did you do a full five years? Did your faith diminish or increase? Talk about how that ended.

Bill Reel [00:14:58] It was quite a roller coaster of back and forth, and I served a little over four and a half years. It eventually got to the point where in the middle of my faith crisis, I had to reach out to my stake president and say, like, we got to do something. And so it was not like, you have to release me today, but it was like, let's start working on this. And so short of five years, I was released, but honorably released. No issues or hang ups. Just essentially my stint had come to an end.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] You kind of said, I need to end. You kind of ended it. Right.

Bill Reel [00:15:32] I'm the one who pushed for something to happen, but gave no timeframe to it.

Faith Crisis and Starting a Podcast

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Okay, so talk about what happened once you were Released. And what was the timeframe between being released and you starting your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:15:48] So I started the podcast actually while I was a sitting bishop. It was right after I got done with the interview with you, I'm guessing this is probably 2012, and got done with the interview with you. And I thought, I wonder how hard this podcasting thing is. I wonder how difficult this is to do. So I ran out to Walmart, grabbed a logitech mic, some cheap little headset with a little stick mic in front of your face, and just started recording some episodes. At first it was more of just me talking me of just sharing my thoughts on grace or the doctrine of Christ. And it wasn't long before I reached out to, like, Brian Whitney, who was a moderator on New Order Mormon and did an interview with him. And then the first well known person that I got an interview with was Brad Wilcox and we had an interview on his ideas on grace. And he's a BYU professor, well known author, just a really cool guy.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Love it. Okay, so you started your podcast as a bishop, but you received no grief from your stake president or church leadership either for coming on Mormon Stories or for starting your own podcast as a bishop?

Bill Reel [00:16:58] No, very few people said anything. I think very few people knew. There was one member of the High Council who listened to my interview with Fair When I started the podcast, Steve Densley from Fair Mormon reached out to me pretty quick sometime in the first 10 episodes and said, I like what you're doing. Is there any chance you'd like to come on and help us with Fair Mormon's podcast? And so I did that. We hashed that out, of course, the last time, but at least the listeners would kind of get a feel for that. And I think the podcast was really uber faithful while still trying to offer some nuance. But really the nuance wasn't so much on church history as it was on more of like church theology with grace and works and the doctrine of Christ and those kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] One technical thing, can you point your camera a little bit down because your head's kind of right at the bottom of the screen and it would let people see it a little bit better. Thanks, Bill. Okay, so what? You know, I've got some people close to me who are involved with FairMormon and not to recap the whole issue, but what happened there, if you had to summarize it, and it got to the point where they really didn't like you, like they almost seemed to despise you a little bit, what happened?

Bill Reel [00:18:16] So if I had to put my finger on one issue. It is that when you are in Fair Mormon, the idea is you can certainly hold different perspectives. And if you can give an answer that is faithful to the church, then you can even tell a different answer from your perspective that doesn't match the church's official position. So for instance, I think if the church were to have its feet held to the fire, it would probably argue for a 6,000 year old earth and for a literal Adam and Eve falling out of a literal garden at least. And again, I know there's nuance in LDS theology. I'm not naive to that. But so fair Mormon would be okay with you saying the earth is older. There's, you know, here's how you put it together, here's how they put it together. They're fine with that. What becomes an issue is if you ever state an unfaithful position. So if somebody writes into Fair and says, I can't make this Book of Abraham work, and you respond back saying like, there's these five answers, but each one of them have problems, then all of a sudden within, you know, a day or two, you get a private message behind the scenes and the top leadership of FairMormon is reaching out to you, saying, we can't say that. We have to always give an answer that is faithful to the church. And I'm saying, like, some of this is really messy and some of this, the faithful answer is either much less reasonable or at times just simply implausible. And I felt like to hold my integrity, I got to be able to state to people like, yeah, this is messy and this doesn't add up really well. And we've got the worst answer, the two on this question. But here it is, and that's just simply not allowed. I mean, so I get it. Like that's, that's who they are and that's the lines they've drawn. And in the church has a lot stronger of a relationship with them because they maintain those boundaries and I was simply outside of them and they let me go.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] What made it so personal? Because I felt like for them it was personal. It wasn't just, okay, it's not working with Bill anymore. It felt like they were kind of angry at you. What happened? Do you have a sense

Bill Reel [00:20:22] I'm kind of a fighter. If somebody comes at me, I kind of roll up my sleeves. And there were certain personalities at fair who just, just butting heads a little bit with me. And I'm trying to think, like, if I go back, I Mean, there's just certain, certain folks in the organization who I didn't like the fact that here they had given me a platform to help them with their podcast. And I'm also doing my own work. And in spite of the fact that with Steve Densley's permission, I'm posting my interviews on both my site as well as their site. And I think there were some members of FAIR that didn't understand that relationship, that I'd had permission to do that. And so they saw it as kind of me, like double dipping in a way. I think sometimes too, when I go online and I'm having a conversation and I'm asking the tough questions, the apologist will jump in and try to thwart what I'm saying. And I don't mean this with any arrogance, but I feel like I sometimes know the right question to ask to lead us down the walk of logic. And all of a sudden now I'm posting a question that they weren't ready for and a lot of times they'll duck out and then I'll get comments from them later on. I don't know, I just, I feel like they're trying to do a certain thing. And I was part of the group for a while, now I'm out and I'm very much outside the lines they've drawn for themselves. And it's just created a tension between me and them. You're on mute, John.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] Sorry, I was on mute. Do you feel like fair Mormon or Maxwell Institute style apologetics overall is good for Mormonism, neutral to Mormonism, or bad for Mormonism?

Views on Mormon Apologetics

Bill Reel [00:22:10] I think for anybody who's read the information, the data, anything that supports the dominant narrative is dying. Like, I just don't think Mormonism 100 years from now can hold anything near the narrative we're telling today. And so I think fair allows room for nuance, but I don't think it's to the extent that allows one to dismiss much of the dominant narrative. And I would simply say that there's not one single facet of Mormonism. Like we could pick any important tangent of Mormonism. And historically and theologically it has got deep problems with that piece of the story. So for me, like, to defend the old view of what a prophet is, to defend the old view of how something in church history came about, I just feel like that's slowly making its way out. And you can see that tension in the recent interpreter article where I forget the guy's name was, but he begins to kind of go after Patrick Mason and Terrell Givens and Grant Hardy. And much of the reason for him going after it is he really needs to hold that dominant narrative. And these scholars in the church who are speaking from a much, I think, much wiser position, are trying to make room for that narrative to slowly go away. As Patrick Mason said, the truth cart is overloaded and much of it is rotting and falling out.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] Have you met people who have told you, as they've told me, that apologetics was their gateway and in some ways accelerated their disaffection from the church?

Bill Reel [00:23:51] I got a number of that a while back, maybe in the early years, and I still see it. I just saw two comments from listeners of my podcast last week who said that Fair Mormon was the gateway into all this messiness because they went in looking for one issue and saw a thousand more. But right now, what I'm experiencing, of every hundred people who are messaging me or contacting me, I would guess about half are pointing to the lds.org essays as the. As the gateway into their faith struggle.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Yeah, I get that a lot, too. In some ways, the Church is darned if they do and darned if they don't talk about the difficult issues really quickly. What do you think I call it? You know, you mentioned Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, Terrell Gibbons, Grant Hardy. I've coined that new group of faithful scholars, neo apologists. And what I mean by that is, and there's maybe multiple waves of Mormon apologetics, starting with maybe BH Roberts or Hugh Nibley, and then obviously farms and then Fairmormon and then now the Maxwell Institute. And a lot of the old classic Mormon apologetics relied on ad hominem attacking people, relied on really bad answers to questions like, you know, horses. When they said horses, they meant tapirs. When they, when they said steal, they meant obsidian or whatever. You know, even, even the stuff that Brian Hales is now saying that yes, Joseph Smith practiced polyandry, but he didn't have sex with any of his polyandrous wives. Just really bad, you know, seemingly unethical. But in any case, illogical and awkward and unsatisfying answers, along with a lot of sort of sharp elbowed ad hominem. I call that kind of classic Mormon apologetics. Daniel Peterson, Lewis Midgley, Brian Hales, Laura Hales, etc. And then there's sort of this new branch of apologetics, I call it neo apologetics. It attempts to be pastoral. It doesn't attack people directly. It doesn't attempt to give really awful, illogical answers to gospel questions, but they're trying to still uphold the Brethren's authority. And from a scholarly, almost poetic or humanities perspective, they're trying to recontextualize Mormonism such that it can still be true, even though it's deeply problematic. And I'm just wondering what's your assessment of what I'm calling neo Apologetics of Mason and Givens and Bushman and the like.

Bill Reel [00:26:40] So you mentioned they're trying to maintain the authority while also validating that this is really messy. The critics have better answers on some of the questions. We've overreached on a thousand issues. We have to redefine profit. I mean, you can go on and on, but you hit on it when you said they're trying to maintain authority, which I think is tough to do. And here's what I mean. The old style of apologetics maintains the idea that these men have a direct line to Jesus Christ and to Heavenly Father and we can trust them to lead the Church. The new way of what you're talking about in neo apologetics, if you follow Mason and Givens and Grant Hardy and allow the way they put it together to just walk its logic all the way out, it's certainly much more empathetic, much more kind, much more loving. The problem I think the Church is going to have is it also is going to require all of us to rest more on our inner authority inside of ourselves, our gut, on what's right and wrong, and to look less to outer authority, which I think the Brethren really want to maintain. And so I love Mason, I love Givens, I love Grant, I love the things they're saying. But it should be noted that once we say this is a really big mess, prophets thought they were talking to God and they got it deeply wrong. So wrong that it hurt people and at times even distorted the nature of the Godhead. And that members of that time looked to those prophets and also felt the Holy Ghost, thinking they were teaching right, and only to have all of that turn out to be disavowed later on when it comes to, like, race and priesthood or Adam, God, all of a sudden you're saying, like, how do we know if these guys know if they're feeling the Holy Ghost or if they're speaking to Jesus when they think they are, and they get it terribly wrong. And so the neo apologetics, while empathetic, is going to require us as a church moving forward to relinquish some of the hold that the Brethren in terms of authority have over the membership.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] But what about the idea that they're still basically saying, yeah, it's messy, but still pay, pray and obey. Is there a downside to that? Is that, okay, what are your thoughts on the fact that they're still carrying water for what I know you believe to be abusive and unfounded doctrines and policies and practices?

Bill Reel [00:29:13] I think Mason and Givens and the like, I think they do a fair job acknowledging that the church could be getting it wrong right in the here and now and that people are being hurt, perhaps unnecessarily. I don't feel like they're justifying the things that you and I would agree, like the church is maybe unhealthy in this area. I just think their position. If the church wants to maintain its authority and status quo as it has today, I don't know that the Mason's and Givens position is tenable unless the church decides, like, okay, we're gonna move more towards a church that's good rather than a church that's true. And I think that's where the Mason and Givens position slowly leads us. And I don't know if the church wants to go there. And so they're obviously, you know, they're obviously giving some support to fair Mormon in the old style of apologetics. As unempathetic as that style is, it maintains their control of the dominant narrative.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Carl Youngblood says, I don't think the new apologetics are as black and white about the prophets as I, John delande, am claiming. That's probably true, Carl. I'm trying to summarize, and I'm sure as many people as are advancing neo apologetics, there are different perspectives of and opinions, so. Fair point, Carl. There's going to be a variety of views. I do still think, at the end of the day, Bushman's claiming that there were golden plates. Terrell Givens, you know, believes there were golden plates delivered by an angel. Patrick Mason is still saying that we have unique priesthood authority that nobody has. And so at the end of the day, they're still saying, pay your tithing. They're still saying, follow the brethren and give your time, money and reputation to the church, even if things are a little bit nuanced.

Bill Reel [00:31:11] Let me ask you, John, if the church had a safe space for people to not believe that there were gold plates, would Givens and Mason and Hardy and Bushman, would they still hold that position?

John Dehlin [00:31:27] Yeah, I think so. What do you think?

Bill Reel [00:31:30] I don't know. I'd be interested to hear it. I think these voices take Mormonism as close to the line as they can while still being safely far within the edge.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] So are you saying they're not. Are you saying they're being a little bit duplicitous, that they're hiding what, their true beliefs? Or do you think they're putting all their cards on the table and being fully sincere?

Bill Reel [00:31:56] No, I think it's the third answer, which is that when we want something to work within our life, we figure out ways in our mind to reconcile those things to a point that we can hold the positions we want to hold. And so for these guys who are deeply influential within Mormonism and who love the church and who want to have that continued influence in it, like, you have to hold certain positions. So I don't think it's dishonest on any level on their part, but Mormonism has made it clear that as of today, right now, there's a certain line where once you cross it, you're no longer a safe voice inside the church. And I think these men in their minds come to intellectual positions as well as emotional positions that they want to hold. And I think we all do it.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Sure. All right, this has been great so far. Bill, what if you had to list what the most important. This is a question from a listener. A question from a listener. What have been the most important resources? People, podcasts, books, movements, whatever. What have been the most influential components to your transition over the years? If you just had to list them chronologically or whatever.

Resources That Shaped the Transition

Bill Reel [00:33:14] Sure. The single biggest thing that's been influential, John, has been being aware of faith development. Being aware that there's a process here, that it's normal. Being aware that what a religious institution sees as falling away is actually seen within psychology and social sciences as development and progress. And that that understanding has taken a huge burden off my shoulder as well as a huge burden.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] What resources have given you that awareness, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Bill Reel [00:33:44] Sure. Certain documents. There's a document authored by a guy by the name of John Pauline, Stages of Faith. You, Tom Kimball and Dan Witherspoon did a four part episode on Stages of Faith. Loved that. That was kind of one of my entries into faith development. Thomas McConkie is a good friend of mine. Having conversations with him have been beautiful in helping understand that process. There's a book titled Faith Shift by Kathy Escobar, another book titled Faith Beyond Belief by Margaret Placentra Johnson. Just beautiful works of helping me see both within Mormonism and outside of Mormonism, what faith development is. Again, the Bushmans and Gibbons interview were really great along the way. Gina Colvin's interview with Greg Prince, where I just thought he was so vulnerable and just laid his thoughts out on the table was helpful. Anything that I can get my hands on that helps me get deeper into history or again, into faith development, I just eat that stuff up.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Any podcasts, other podcasts you've listened to in your journey that have been influential?

Bill Reel [00:35:04] Radiolab, which is non Mormon. I don't know if you've ever listened to that one. It's. It's really good in terms of just taking kind of these odd, quirky things in the world and dissecting them and helping us see that. Another one is the you're not so smart podcast, which goes into great. Yeah, goes into great detail about the backfire effect.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Yeah, that's a great episode.

Bill Reel [00:35:24] Confirmation bias and belief persistence. It almost helps you just deconstruct, step by step, why we believe what we do and why we fight so hard to keep it.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Any Mormon books that have been influential?

Bill Reel [00:35:37] D. Michael Quinn, Mormonism in the World, Magic View, Greg Prince's David O. McKay book in the Rise of Early Mormonism, Michael Quinn's Origins of Power, although my more favorite is the Extensions of Power book. But anything Quinn writes is just gorgeous.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Okay, what about Cesletter? Has that been influential to you at all?

Bill Reel [00:36:04] Not in terms of giving me anything new, but in terms of one place where it's just absolutely all thrown up against the wall and gives you kind of a place just to go and say, like, yeah, I mean, it's not just one or two things, it's a hundred things, if not a thousand things. But no, not in terms of new material.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] And then just really briefly, before we dig into your podcast, what do you observe as being the most important movements or resources or people right now that are influencing your listeners in Mormonism?

Bill Reel [00:36:40] What are the most influential pieces to the listeners? I think the average listener to my podcast is the average listener to your podcast and other works within Mormonism. Everybody's just trying to figure this out. And so whether you're out of the church and trying to justify why you left, whether you're in the church and trying to justify why you stay, I think that the general audience is pulling in, whether they're reading the books that I've talked about, whether they're listening to Mormon stories, whether listening to a thoughtful faith or Mormon matters or Infants on thrones, I just think that the conversations that are happening, people are just looking for authentic voices and vulnerability and people to speak to just how messy this thing is.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] All right, let's Dig into your podcast. Why did you start it?

Bill Reel [00:37:30] So, to be completely honest, John, the reason I approached you the first time was I thought you were getting a little too critical. And so I felt like, okay, I'll just hold the other side of this line. I'll maintain that space. And that worked out for a long time. But it's. You know, that's. That's the reason I started it off was just to be. Be a faithful voice who was also having the tough conversations.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] And now you're becoming. You know, your listeners are saying you're becoming more critical.

Bill Reel [00:38:02] Yeah, there's. There's no doubt that my voice has become more. More frustrated, because I think the longer you dissect this thing, the more you dive in, the more you realize that there's a perception that the church wants to maintain about itself and the contact its leaders have with the divine. And then there's the reality, which I think, again, Givens and Mason are speaking to. And in the kind of trying to figure out where that line's at. And the more you read and the more you think and the more you discover this stuff, you realize that, like, there's some unhealthiness here. There's some real hurt that we're doing to people, and is there a safe space to speak up and to point that out? And part of me wants to find out, like, can I stand up and raise my hand and say, okay, so I have hope that this is the true and living church, but at the same time, can I say, like, there's really serious issues here that we don't want to talk about, and I want us to talk about them.

The Podcast Audience and Content Focus

John Dehlin [00:39:01] So, you know, obviously, I have to. It's impossible for me not to process kind of my own journey as I listen to you and your journey. I started out the podcast Mormon Stories, trying to keep people in the church, trying to show that you can be faithful and open. I started stale. DS.com tried to carve out a middle way, started a thoughtful faith, helped Dan start Mormon matters. Like, I've been through all that stuff before. I became increasingly critical. So when you decided I was too critical. But now you're critical, does that just mean you weren't along that path? And more importantly, the bigger question that I'm really asking is, does the fact that you've moved from where I was earlier to where I ended up, in many ways, does that suggest that there really is a bit of a path or a trajectory that people follow, that they start out orthodox, then they start questioning, then they're Naive and optimistic. Then they start trying to carve out the middle way. Then they get exposed to all the pain and then they start getting frustrated that they're not getting listening to. And then their voices become more and more shrill. And it wasn't just me. September 6th, you know, Margaret Toscano, Paul Toscano, Michael Quinn, you know, and this is something Matt Long was getting to in his interview with you. It's not like this is what you're going through. It's the first time this has happened to someone in Mormonism. This seems to be a pattern that's been followed time and time and time again. So are you willing to say that you just earlier, when you thought I was being too critical, you just didn't kind of understand the path, or would you look at it differently?

Bill Reel [00:40:42] No, no, I would fully agree. Like, we're all on a trajectory. Whether, whether we're on the same trajectory or not. We're all on a trajectory. We're all on a path. Right. So the idea that I couldn't have any hindsight at that time, right. Like, only now can I look back and say, like, oh, that happened. That led to this and this led to that. I would say too, you're asking if it's a common trajectory. And I would simply throw out maybe a rhetorical question or you can answer if you want to. If you took a thousand people, active orthodox Latter Day Saints and you stuck me in a room with them, who's going to help them understand the messiness so they can be more empathetic to their loved one? Then you stuck an apologist in the room, an old style apologist from Fair Mormon or somebody else in the room and they're going to defend the faithful position and both of us just go in and just like throw all the data out and I throw answers and they throw answers. The question would be like, how many of that thousand would. Would now end up having their faith slowly fall apart? And I think the risk is there that when we talk about the information, when we try to take the perspectives of those who are being hurt in Mormonism, those who are being marginalized, I think it's a normal trajectory for the majority of people to slowly become more and more frustrated with the unhealthiness that's here that the top leadership doesn't seem to want to address. And so I think it's normal.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Cool. Well, I appreciate that. And it was one of the most common questions and comments by the listeners is just, is this a common trajectory? And are you on it? So thanks for answering. Yeah.

Bill Reel [00:42:29] And I don't know, John, like, where it'll end. Like, I'm hoping to stay in the church. Like, I have a hope in this thing that I want to be here, but I'm not naive enough anymore to not at least know where it could end and know that it could end with me being outside the church.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Yeah, no, I get it. I was active until my final disciplinary council hearing, and I wanted to stay in, too, so I get it. Okay, so who is your audience today, if you had to describe them? Do you have a sense for the breakdown of, like, orthodox believers versus progressive believers versus, you know, post Mormons or non believers?

Bill Reel [00:43:08] So I would guess the majority of the audience is progressive Mormon, with still a strong segment of post Mormon folks who still want to stay connected to the story and still want to hear interesting things going on about Mormonism. But what I've tried to do, and again, my Facebook posts are much stronger. There's a much more critical voice in my Facebook post, but in the podcast, I'm still trying to maintain a voice that is safe enough for the progressive Mormon to share with their family and friends. And I still get messages every week from listeners who take certain episodes and pass them along to their bishop, pass them along to their father, pass them along to their sibling. And the listeners are saying, that's a huge help. So I think the podcast still holds this inside edge of progressive Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Have you had listeners reach out and say, bill, you've become too negative or critical? I'm not listening anymore.

Bill Reel [00:44:06] Yeah, but it's by far and wide a minority. I probably have gotten three or four messages from listeners in the last year from folks saying, like, oh, I just really wish you could just be more positive and not talk about these issues constantly. But most of the messages I get are from people who are just grateful that there's another voice out here that validates them and shows empathy and is not just gonna pretend there's nothing going wrong here.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Do you have a sense for your statistics? Like, how many downloads per episode, let's just say a week or two after you release overall, what your size of listenership is.

Bill Reel [00:44:50] So we're running everything through Blueberry every. So last month we got 73,000 downloads. I don't. You know, I know that's like half of what, like, Infants on Thrones get. I bet it's probably a tenth of what you're getting. But I'm getting somewhere around 65 to 75, maybe thousand downloads a month now. Every episode is getting After a few weeks is somewhere around the 4,000 download mark.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Okay. Are you happy with that? Do you think it should be more or less?

Bill Reel [00:45:26] I don't know how these things are measured, and I don't know if some of it gets missed or if that's accurate. I don't know. But, I mean, it's growing. Every month is more than the month before. So I'm thrilled with that.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] Yeah, I just looked at marmous stories. We had 327,000 downloads in July, and then we do YouTube views and Facebook views on top of that. So I'm guessing we're at 4, 400, but I'm in the same boat. Growing. Absolutely growing. The OSF is on track this year to have over 6 million downloads and views for the year.

Bill Reel [00:45:59] I think it's interesting to note John too, which is an idea you're pointing at that while progressive Mormonism or people waking up to the messiness of Mormonism, while that is still a small, small, small segment of an active ward, I think there's no doubt that this number exponentially growing, like you can just watch ex Mormon Reddit, the podcast. Growth of various podcasts, various scholars and people who are speaking to this, getting more attention. I just think it's a growing segment of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] I agree. Mark Johnson, my buddy from the uk, writes, bill, do you still attend in order to give your podcast credibility for still attending members? In other words, is remaining active in part a strategy to keep your podcast viable?

Bill Reel [00:46:51] That's not something that I put a lot of thought into. I'm active. I go every week. I'm the finance clerk in my ward. I still love Mormonism like, I still love it as a playground. My boss and I, we talk about this a lot. And I'm speaking of Chris Bloxham, who owns the company. I work for him and I had these conversations about how Mormonism is this really fertile ground for development once you're awake. And so I love Mormonism. I love the history, I love the theology, I love the community. And so, sure. I mean, at some point, maybe these guys decide I can't be part of the tribe anymore. I just don't see how that. I don't see how that makes the podcast decrease. I think it still continues to grow, whether I'm in or whether I'm out. I don't think it has that much of an impact.

Podcast Revenue and Outside Work

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Got it. What are your. What's your annual revenue or your monthly revenue for your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:47:46] So last year we brought in, I think 11,000. This year I think we're on pace to bring in about $18,000. And like you were set up as a 501C3, and the donations continue to go up and up. So I mean, it's still peanuts, right? So Fairmormon likes to say, for instance, some of the members of them like to make the idea or the claim that I'm making money off of this. And as of yet, I still haven't taken a salary. Like it all just goes into expenses or builds up. We've got, I think about 8,600 bucks in the savings account at this point.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Why haven't you paid yourself?

Bill Reel [00:48:22] Because it's not big enough. There's not enough there. So maybe someday I do, but until then, you know, I'm not. And I'm happy to be open about that. And sure, I hope there's a day where I can make 50, 60 thousand dollars off the thing and maybe do it full time. Right Now I'm working 60 hours a week at my full time job and I probably put another 20 hours a week into doing things with the podcast and with the 501C3.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] What's the other job? And did it come about as a result of your podcast? And is there any tie between your job and your podcast?

Bill Reel [00:48:55] Yeah, it's actually a pretty unique relationship. So I did a fireside in Henderson, Nevada a little over two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago. And it was for Mormons who are doubting. And we had this big group show up and we sat and.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Was it in a Mormon chapel?

Bill Reel [00:49:11] No, no, no. It was in the backyard of a gentleman who's now my. A good friend of mine, his brother was there that night as well to take it all in. And we went from 7pm till midnight just answering people's questions. And you know this right? People, people just want to ask their questions and they want to be heard, they want to be validated, they want to have somebody address them head on. And so we did that. And when it was all said and done, this other gentleman, you know, comes up to me and says, like, I've got to have you work for me. And so we worked out the details and I now work for Family Pawn, which is a family owned pawn shop in Southern Utah. Really awesome operation. Great owners, Chris and Don Bloxham. And Chris brought me on board. We trained at one store and now I manage their family pawn store in Hurricane, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Does he let you work Mormon discussion on the job

Bill Reel [00:50:06] here and there?

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Sure.

Bill Reel [00:50:07] I mean, I'm not gonna Go do an interview or something while on the clock. But as far as kind of just keeping up with what's going on in Mormonism, put a post out on Facebook a time or two. Yeah, that's not a big deal. So one of the things that's really cool is he loves Mormonism as much as I do. And him and his wife are big collectors of LDS memorabilia, artifacts, items. We've got a first edition of the Book of Mormon in our store. We've got a second edition. We've got a first edition of Lucy Mack's history of Joseph Smith and her family. They just, they love Mormonism. They love the conversations that are going on right now in the church. And so it's been a lot of fun. I come out here and we just spend a lot of time sometimes just hashing out different issues within the church.

Current Faith Position and Church Relationships

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Sam Newton writes, bill, I've listened to you for quite some time. It seems like you're moving down the same slippery slope so many of us have, fully believing to middle way Mormon, to progressive Mormon, to ex or transitioning Mormon. It seems like your podcast keep moving in this direction. Do you think you can really stay and not move down this path? That's a. I guess it's a similar question to what we've already talked about. Anything else you want to say to Sam?

Bill Reel [00:51:16] That kind of a question, and no offense to Sam, but I'm glad he asked it. But that kind of a question is somewhat irritating because you can't help. You can't help but be who you are. You can't help but think what you think. You can't help but process this the way you process this. And so where this ends, I don't know. But I can't help where I am. Like, that's where I am. And when you're in Mormonism and every time you're trying to put a piece of the puzzle back together and all you realize is there's 10 more pieces at the bottom of the bag. Like, it gets more and more difficult. And so it's fair for people to say, like, oh, you're too negative, but I think it's unfair to have any kind of implication that you can fix this anytime you want to.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Right. I like that answer, actually. Thank you for that. All right, so let's. So you do have a calling, your ward financial clerk. You do have an active temple recommend. What are you able to say about your relationship with your leaders, specifically your bishop, your stake president, any. Any other leaders that you've interacted with? I know you don't want to talk about that a lot, but what can you tell us so I can tell

Bill Reel [00:52:26] you a little bit? I've got a wonderful bishop, great bishop. He's orthodox, but he's very loving. And he has a brother who's left over church history. He's got a couple of family members who have come out as lesbians. He's very aware that there is messiness out there and he chooses to kind of just stay out of that fray. And I think a little out of worry, right, of what that would maybe do to him. But in the meantime, he's been extremely loving and kind to me. And while I think he's somewhat uncomfortable or skeptical of what influence I'm going to have, the more I talk or speak up inside a ward building, he's been loving enough to continue to let me participate and not to find any serious issue there. I've also got a stake president who's much of the same mold, great man, loving man, very kind. He's much more aware of the history of the church, but still holds a very orthodox position. And he's allowed at the same time. We've met several times. We've had one on one conversations. We've talked about the podcast, we've talked about my testimony, we've talked about where I stand on various issues. I've been able to be very frank with him. And while he has expressed that there are some higher than him who have concern over what I say and do, at least as of this very present second, he still feels like I'm helping people and that there is not a safe space in the three hour block to have these conversations and that somebody needs to be having them and that I'm providing a venue for that to occur.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] If past is in any way prologue, this all sounds very familiar. I had multiple conversations with bishop and stake president before things kind of went sour. And they were very supportive until they weren't. And usually, you know, in our case, what happened was apologists in Fairmormon and Maxwell Institute decided Mormon stories had crossed the line. At some point they started investigating me. They started, you know, sort of, I think probably in conjunction with the strengthening, the members committee started passing troubling quotes and things to my stake president. And that's when things started getting serious. Still, my former stake president wasn't willing to pull the trigger. And so what ended up happening was, you know, Whitney Clayton actually removed my former stake president, put in a stake president that was willing to pull the trigger and all of that just Sort of came from a decision that the church made at the highest level, that Mormon stories was too damaging and it needed to be ended or I needed to be discredited. Do you have a sense that any of that's happening and that pattern or cycle could reoccur with you?

Bill Reel [00:55:31] So, a couple things, a couple thoughts I've got. One is this John lynch, who's the vice president of FairMormon. At least last time I checked, he was the vice president of FairMormon. Did an interview some time ago. In fact, I think it was in reaction to my having left fair. So right around that same time, which would have been maybe 2014, 2013. And John lynch in the interview says something along the lines of, from time to time, the church will ask us to stay up to date on certain voices within Mormonism and to collect data on them and turn them back into them. So we know for a fact that that's happened. They're on the record as saying that occurs. I know that my stake president has shared with me that higher leaders than him and the wording he used made it sound like pretty, pretty high up, if that makes sense, that they were watching and listening to what I was saying. But I don't believe they're actually listening to podcasts. I don't believe they're getting up in the morning and plugging Mormon stories or Mormon discussion on their ears or. Or throwing a phone in the shower while they. While they take a shower. I don't think that's occurring. But as you point out, the Strengthening Church Members Committee collects the information, cuts out snippets of what I say, cuts out audio bits of what I say, and then passes on probably a transcript or something to those, to those top leaders. And it's unfortunate because I think you really don't understand a person unless you listen to them in context and you listen to how they're framing things throughout their entire conversation. But I'm sure it does occur, John, and as of yet, I, you know, I've said a lot of strong things, but maybe I haven't said whatever it is they're looking for. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] The thing I would add is influence. If and when your downloads continue to grow, that's going to be the factor, because there's plenty of people who have been strident, who have said negative or critical things, who don't believe. I mean, look at Tyler Glenn. You know, he defamed the temple ceremony and he showed temple signs, you know, and tokens and did a video in his garments. But the truth is, it didn't have a huge influence on enough people's faith for them to go after Tyler. And so he's been left alone. Lindsay Hansen park has been left alone. I think a huge factor is influence. You kind of have to cross this threshold of influence before they. So I'm just saying that's another factor that, you know you'll grow over time because that's how these things work. But that's probably another factor.

Bill Reel [00:58:07] I think it's something else, too. And maybe. I don't know if these overlap at all or if this is maybe just a completely different reason that I'm going to kind of hold onto. I think influence is big. There's no doubt about that. But I also think it's the idea that there are certain lines you just can't cross. And so I think the moment. The moment you express disbelief in, for instance, Jesus Christ, or the moment you express disbelief in these men as prophets, seers and revelators, that seems to be a line you just can't go across. And so you can word things in a way, articulate things in a way that expresses deep doubt. But I think the moment you cross that line. And again, there's other issues, too. I mean, you look at the September 6th, and there's other reasons why. And maybe that was just a different era, and there was less allowance, too. But I think often disbelief being articulated verbally is one of those lines you just simply can't. And publicly you just can't cross.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Okay, And I think that's a factor. But you can cross those lines. In Tyler Glenn's case, he's crossed all those lines, including making fun of the profit, expressing explicit disbelief, you know, violating the temple ceremony, oaths and covenants, and he's been left completely alone. So it's a lot of factors. But I agree that those expressing public disbelief, criticizing the brethren, can be ones along with violating temple oaths. But I think at the end of the day, the number one factor is impact, because they have to sort of balance. How many people are you hurting from the Barbra Streisand effect of if we excommunicate you, how much publicity will that generate for the negative things? And if they calculate that, on the one hand your influence, you know, isn't or is enough, on the other hand, with, wow, how much trouble are we getting? You know, like, with Tom Phillips or Hans Matzon? They haven't excommunicated those guys. And I think they've calculated that excommunicating Hans Mattson or Tom Phillips or Tyler Glenn would bring much more negative visibility to the church than is the actual influence that they're having. And I think that's part of the calculus. That's all I'm saying.

Bill Reel [01:00:29] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Tyler writes, Bill's podcast was the first I found during my faith transition. Brought stability to a life that was full of pain and confusion. Thanks Bill. So that's a positive comment from one of our live listeners. We have over 237 live listeners joining us right now, which is a very large number, especially for 8:30am in the morning. So shout out to all our listeners. We're really grateful you've joined us. Please continue to share comments and questions. My dear friend Sid Olson writes, I appreciate your thoughts Bill and John, you give great interviews. Thank you both. So positive. Shout out from Sid. We love you Sid. Susan writes, I think podcasts like this help those individuals who are waking up to the complexity of faith navigate the transition in a healthy way. Thanks for all you do. So lots of positive comments from our listeners. Bill Chelsea writes, Tyler Glenn is also famous outside Mormonism. The PR from exing him would be a nightmare. I completely agree. I also shared on my Facebook page today an interview from Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons where he's starting to come out publicly about his non belief and his disagreement with the church about same sex marriage and LGBT individuals. It seems like more and more people are becoming more and more vocal and for some reason celebrities are more prone to, to become dissenters at some point. So that's, that's interesting as well. Caleb writes, John, there is a kind of number of people as far as influence that they may wait until you reach before considering action. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Mark writes, Rock Waterman is a more complex example. He has belief in Christ but not the brethren and yet he was still excommunicated. Mary writes, is that what you think happened in your case? To me and I don't know exactly what she's talking about, but I know for sure that it was a mandate. From Russell M. Nelson and Elder Ballard to Whitney Clayton. He tried to get my former stake president to excommunicate me. He wouldn't. So then he brought in a new stake president who would and it was absolutely top down the whole way, even though they denied it. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.