Introduction and Guest Welcome

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1186

Brittany Holley [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 3, 2019 and today I am so incredibly excited to be able to bring to you another Mormon Stories podcast episode.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] Today we are going to be tackling an issue that has touched several dear and close friends of mine over the years. And the topic is alcohol use and abuse. And I cannot tell you how thrilled and excited I am to have a dear friend with me. Her name is Brittany Holley. I've known her and her husband Scott for many, many years. And Brittany is willing to do something very vulnerable, which is to talk to us about her, her journey as a Mormon out of the church or out of, let's just say orthodox faith. And then as she and her family started experimenting with alcohol, kind of what her experience was and how she's battled with it or fought it or journeyed with it and where she is now in overcoming, let's just say, alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] So before we actually bring Brittany on, I'm just going to really do a quick plug for Thrive Day for those of you who don't know. November 17, 2019. We are so thrilled to have an event. It's an all day event in Salt Lake City at the Salt palace where we're going to be inviting some of our favorite post Mormons and one extra friend to talk about healing, joy and growth and community after Mormonism. Think of it as a post Mormon General Conference, 100% focused on positivity, healing, growth and community. We're bringing Wayne Sermon, the lead guitarist of Imagine Dragons, to keynote. We're also bringing Amber Skora, an ex Jehovah's Witness, the author of the book Leaving the Witness from New York City.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] But in addition to these amazing speakers, we're gonna have several speakers that you know and love from the post Mormon community, including Natasha Alver Parker, Christian Moore, John Hamer, Mindy Gledhill, Stephanie Sorensen Larsen from the Encircle House, Donna Showalter, Spencer Nugent, Liz Dalton, Hans Mattsson and Lisa Hacking. Those are the people that are currently slated to speak. Some of those may change, we may add some others or some may not work out, but that's who we've got scheduled. We hope to have karaoke at the end of the evening. Just a lot of fun, but it's going to be an amazing event to again promote healing, growth and community.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] We've priced it at only $15 a person. We're pretty much guaranteed to lose money. Just the AV and the venue is over $10,000. But we just want as many people as possible to come. So if you want to join us, please go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com and register, please. Spread the word. And we would love to have a few thousand people there to have an amazing event.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] All right, so that's all I've got for announcements. So without any further ado, Brittany, Holley, thank you so much for your willingness to come on Mormon Stories podcast.

Brittany's Mormon Upbringing and Early Life

Brittany Holley [00:04:03] Of course, John. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to talk about a near and dear topic to me, a Mormon faith crisis and then mixed with, you know, the aftermath and emotional fallout and how I dealt with that and how my husband kind of dealt with that and kind of our journey through drinking and using alcohol as kind of a way to feel connected again, to feel, you know, a little bit of camaraderie in life with neighbors, those sorts of things. You know, we lost a community and we found another one in drinking. So just really a pleasure to speak with you. And yes, it is very vulnerable and so. But I feel like I need to tell my truth and be open about it because I think that brings not only healing to myself, but to hope for others possibly down the road.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Yeah. And I'll just say that the reason why I'm so excited about this, one of the many reasons is just that, is that over the years I've had, you know, several, several friends come to me and basically just say, hey, John, you know, I never touched alcohol prior to joining the church, and, and then I just started with a glass of wine at a meal or just an occasional beer. And now, you know, it's grown into full blown alcoholism. My marriage is in jeopardy. I may lose my house, I may lose my job. You know, there's different iterations of it, but I just have had several friends have alcoholism rear its ugly head after, for many of these people going their whole lives, never, never trying a drop of alcohol prior to their faith crisis.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] So, you know, we're not against alcohol or marijuana use, you know, responsible, you know, whatever substances. We're not against that on Mormon Stories podcast. We know it's going to happen.

Brittany Holley [00:06:09] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] But we do want people to understand the risks and we want to. If people are, you know, one of the unlucky ones, where they start having a bad experience, things get out of control. We want to help give stories of how to, how to get better. And we've covered opiate addiction on Mormon Stories, but we've never covered alcohol abuse.

Brittany Holley [00:06:31] Yeah, yeah, super cool.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] That's what we're doing.

Brittany Holley [00:06:33] Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you know, just in my own research with alcohol and stuff like that is, you know, you know, people, it's such a culturally accepted substance that, you know, we don't question it like we do opiates or other, you know, substances quite as much. So I think it's important to bring it to light. You know, it actually kills more than. More than most drugs do in our world. So, you know, I think it's, you know, important to just note that it's a very accepted cultural substance that we use. And I definitely fell into that.

Brittany Holley [00:07:11] Into that category of using it after my faith crisis. So, you know, I thought it was completely acceptable for me and my husband to start, you know, experimenting with something that maybe we would have experimented with long ago. But, you know, Mormonism keeps you from, you know, doing those things if you want to, you know, be a good, worthy temple recommend holding person. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Sure.

Brittany Holley [00:07:36] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Well, if it's all right, let's. Let's go back and let's just tell us a quick, you know, a little bit about your Mormon upbringing just so that we understand that you're probably like most of us in so many ways.

Brittany Holley [00:07:48] Yeah, yeah. So my family grew up in the church. I, you know, as a teenager, my dad was my bishop. You know, so obviously during those years of, you know, where most people start, you know, dabbling in drinking, I did not, I think a few of my friends might have. I really didn't hang out with those crowds because I was definitely your, like, straight arrow Mormon girl.

Brittany Holley [00:08:19] Wanted to follow all the rules and, you know, be worthy and, you know, be on track for, you know, a temple marriage and all those things. As a youth, you know, I worked on weekends to earn my own money to pay for my gas. And so I worked at a restaurant on weekends and didn't really have much time for that.

Brittany Holley [00:08:41] My. I have a sister that did experiment with alcohol in high school and she got in big trouble. So I knew that there were serious consequences in my own family dynamic. And I was focused on getting my personal progress done for young women's program and those sorts of things. So it's just not something that I ever desired to get into.

Brittany Holley [00:09:07] I knew it was bad. I'd been through the DARE program in school. The church says it's bad. You don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't do those things. And so it was just never a question whether or not I was even going to experiment with it.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Right. What did. What Did Mormonism sort of. What was the role of just the church in your. Let's just say, teen and early adult years? Talk about what the church. How involved you were in the church, what your beliefs were, and what the church meant to you.

Brittany Holley [00:09:38] I mean, the church was kind of. It was my life, you know, my. You know, I was thinking this morning about that primary song. You know, I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know who I am. I know God's plan. You know, I'll follow him in Jesus faith. And I just, you know, it was. It was my way of, you know, believing in God. It was my way of participating in spirituality.

Brittany Holley [00:10:04] You know, it was. Gosh, it was. It was, you know, part of my routine, my family life. You know, I fully believed in everything the church taught me as far as, you know, God, salvation, Jesus Christ, his role, you know, And I definitely took on as a teenager as I felt very firm and in my knowledge of those things and those truths that we talk about in the church.

Brittany Holley [00:10:34] I was a member missionary. I introduced friends to the church who got baptized. So I definitely took the role of being. I mean, I grew up in a place. I'm not in Utah or Idaho or some of those more populated Mormon areas. So I'm up in the corner of the Pacific Northwest, and I was up by Bellingham.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Right up in Washington?

Brittany Holley [00:11:00] Yeah, just a little south of Bellingham. We're in this beautiful valley.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] Is that where you grew up, near Bellingham?

Brittany Holley [00:11:06] I grew up kind of outside of Seattle. And then when we were. When I was 13, I moved up here to this kind of farming community area. My dad changed jobs within the same company, so we moved north. And I was the only. I had grown up with a lot of LDS girls my grade and my age. And when we moved up here, I was the only one. So I really took it upon myself to be an example to my friends about what the church was about what teachings I followed, what, you know, like, I don't drink and I don't, you know, do this or that. I don't have sex before marriage. You know, those things were just very, very firm in my. In my belief system that those were the things I needed to, you know, follow.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] And were there. Were there other youth in your ward, or was it.

Brittany Holley [00:11:57] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Branch. Was it a full ward?

Brittany Holley [00:12:00] It was a full ward. And we definitely had a youth program big enough that there were girls, you know, a little bit older than me, a little bit younger than me. Not very much in the way of young men. My age, but definitely, like, there's, there's a good sized population of Mormon, you know, kids during that time, just in different wards surrounding us. So. But I was the only girl in my high school, in my grade that was LDS until I recruited somebody. So.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Until I recruited somebody.

Brittany Holley [00:12:36] Until I recruited somebody. So, you know, I didn't want to be alone in my faith. You know, I wanted to spread the good word, so I did. And yeah, so, you know, my dad was a bishop through my youth or through my teenage years. And so I definitely upheld the. I'm the bishop's daughter, I have an example to set, you know, that sort of thing for sure. And so I definitely remember, you know, there's a, this is actually a pretty religious community that I live in. And so there's Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, all sorts of different denominations. And, you know, we all would get in debates on the cross country bus about who was right about what, you know, when it came to God in church and all that stuff.

Brittany Holley [00:13:23] So it's. But yeah, I mean, I had a really, you know, good upbringing. I had an amazing seminary teacher. She was a wonderful, She's a wonderful woman and she, you know, I definitely felt like she was a big impact in my, you know, just, you know, being strong in my faith and that sort of thing. So. And I did all four years of seminary and didn't miss a day.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] So that's hardcore.

Brittany Holley [00:13:53] Hardcore. Yes, yes. I was, I had a plan, you know, I had my checklist.

Marriage, Goals, and Life as a Young Mormon Couple

John Dehlin [00:13:58] And so what was that? What was your life gonna be like, you know, as you're like, graduating from high school? What are the checks on your checklist, you know?

Brittany Holley [00:14:07] Well, my parents were very big proponents of getting educated, so of course college was on my radar. So I applied to byu, Idaho and BYU and Utah and University of Utah and I went to the University of Utah, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Okay, now that's a little bit of a smudge.

Brittany Holley [00:14:25] I know, I know, I know.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] I'm kidding.

Brittany Holley [00:14:27] My blood runs red.

John Dehlin [00:14:31] My daughter Clara just started at the U this fall.

Brittany Holley [00:14:33] Awesome. It's a great.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] She's the first ute in our family.

Brittany Holley [00:14:37] Oh, that's awesome. My grandparents all actually went to the University of Utah, so I was kind of rich home. My parents went to byu, but I went the other direction, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] But just so people are clear, and I want to get back to your checklist. But yeah, there's a long, you know, decades, multi decades long history of faithful Mormons going to the U, right?

Brittany Holley [00:14:58] Oh, yeah, absolutely. So. So yeah, I mean, I was Actually very fortunate in the fact that all of my roommates were actually members of the church when I lived in the dorms there. So fortunate, fortunate. You know, we got into a little bit of trouble, you know, went to club. I can't remember what it was called downtown, but yeah, it was.

Brittany Holley [00:15:21] Yeah, it was. It was a good. It was a good experience. And, you know, I was not. I was, you know, my checklist was go to school, get educated, find myself my returned missionary. Right. And you know, get married, you know, have a family and, you know, beyond that, endure to the end. Right. You know, fill my callings and that sort of thing. So I didn't really think too far, you know, beyond, you know, marriage and family. You know, I knew I had a career. I'm a nurse. You know, I didn't finish school at the U because I got married at 19, so.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] Oh, my goodness.

Brittany Holley [00:15:58] Yeah, I know, right? 19, 19. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] That's almost a child bride.

Brittany Holley [00:16:04] I know, Scott. We joke about the cradle robbing and stuff that happened at that point, but, you know, he. He was wonderful, you know.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] How'd you meet Scott?

Brittany Holley [00:16:16] We met at church. We met at. In our student ward, like first week of school. No joke.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Of your freshman year?

Brittany Holley [00:16:25] Of my freshman year. And he was a senior, so, you

John Dehlin [00:16:29] know, like fresh mead.

Brittany Holley [00:16:30] I know. I was like, oh, my gosh, what was I thinking? He swept me off my feet. So, you know. Yeah, it was such a fun and exciting time.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] How long did you guys date? How long did you guys date?

Brittany Holley [00:16:45] We met in September, obviously when school started, and we were engaged by July.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Okay, that's a little restrained.

Brittany Holley [00:16:53] Yeah, I know. Well, and we got married in December, so six month engagement was, you know, rough in the sense of, okay, we gotta get to the end, gotta stay worthy of that temple marriage. So, you know, just. Yeah. So what'd you.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] What'd you love about Scott?

Brittany Holley [00:17:11] Oh, gosh, everything. You know, we. He was playing the organ or piano or whatever for our student ward, and I was the chorister. And that's how we met. I mean, I had a calling, like right off the bat, you know, to be the ward chorister. So, yeah, we met there and then, you know, we went out salsa dancing with a group of friends and all that sort of fun stuff. He was very creative at, you know, like, coming up with dates and stuff. Yeah, we went up to Mount Timpanogos and went cave spelunking, you know, that sort of thing, and clay pigeon shooting. We went to concerts, symphonies, you know, we just had a lot of fun, you know, a lot of good, good fun.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Good wholesome, Mormon fun.

Brittany Holley [00:17:58] Yes, yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Even at the U.

Brittany Holley [00:18:00] Even at the U. So it was, it was a lot of fun. We had a great time and you know, you know, it just kind of fell in love with them and, you know, we had some ups and downs through our dating. You know, I was kind of still, you know, it was a lot of change, you know, going from living at home to, you know, moving out of the state for school and then, you know, meeting somebody and that sort of thing. So. Yeah, and trying to concentrate on school. I mean, we were there. My freshman year was the year of the Olympics in the Salt Lake area. So we had a little bit of a break.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Is that 2002?

Brittany Holley [00:18:36] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So Scott and I kind of, you know, I was really confused about what I wanted. I was like, this seems too fast, you know, too quickly. And so over the Christmas break, we kind of split a little bit and then kind of started hanging out again over the break during the Olympics and went down to St. George with some friends and oh my gosh, like, I didn't even tell my parents that we went. I went with guys and other girls and like stayed in the same hotel with them, you know, and, you know, I felt a little bit, you know, rebellious doing that because I was like, I don't think my parents would approve of, you know, us staying in a hotel with boys, you know, but whatever. So did it. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] So you guys got married and got married and what, what were your goals as a couple? You know, it kind of like what was the understanding of what, what your, your family was going to be based on?

Brittany Holley [00:19:32] Definitely centered around the church and callings and, you know, just raising our family in the church, that sort of thing. I mean, you know, we had dreams of, gosh, it's so hard to think about, like what we were thinking then, but, you know, we were just kind of going through the, you know, okay, we're married now. You know, we've got callings in the church, we're making friends. We actually, three days after we got married, moved to Southern California. So, you know, we had our ready made church friends already there and my grandparents lived there as well, so.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] And of course the woman's education was expendable because, you know, it's all about the guy's career. Right, Right.

Brittany Holley [00:20:12] I mean, I followed him, but I was looking at getting back into school. I mean, I had a CNA certificate to be a certified nurse assistant, ended up getting a job at a hospital down there while I was looking at getting back into school, because I really. I knew I wanted to be a nurse, and I knew I wanted to make that happen. And so I. I wasn't quite ready to just start a family right off the bat because I wanted to make sure. I mean, my parents were always like, well, you never know what's going to happen, so you got to be able to support yourself.

Brittany Holley [00:20:40] So I took that seriously, and I knew I wanted to be a nurse. So we didn't start a family right off the bat. And I looked at getting into school there in California, but Scott ended up taking a job shortly after. I mean, we're only there for eight months. He took a job in Boston, so we ended up packing up and moving across the country. And so. So I did kind of just wait on school until we moved out east, and I got a temporary job while I was applying to schools out there. So. So, yeah, I mean, you know, everywhere we went, you know, it's like we had our callings in the church, primary teachers.

Brittany Holley [00:21:21] When we moved out to Boston, we were put as the librarians in the. In the church library right away. And then not too long after that, I got sucked into the young women's program. And which. It was so strange to me because I was like, I am not that much older than these girls that I'm teaching. You know, I don't have a whole lot of life experience. But, yeah, it was. It was.

Brittany Holley [00:21:46] Yeah, the church, you know, it was our. It was our community. It was our group of friends. It was, you know, something we relied on as a support system, as spirituality system, you know, belief system, all those things. You know, we're very much wrapped up in the church, so.

Moving to Boston and Starting a Family

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Did you end up going to nursing school in Boston?

Brittany Holley [00:22:06] I did, yes. I did get into the University of Massachusetts, Boston. So we lived north of the city, and the school was south, and I could just get on the subway and go to work or go to school. And, you know, I met. I was pretty sure I was, like, the only Mormon there maybe. But, you know, it was. It was great. I really enjoyed, you know, getting to know. To know people there. It was definitely a different group. It's a bigger melting pot culturally and everything. So. So, yeah, it was. It was. It was a good experience. But, you know, I was definitely, you know, still firm in my faith and, you know, doing my callings and, you know, working with the youth and stuff like that was really, you know, fulfilling at the time, especially while I was in school. So.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] And if I recall, Scott ended up at Harvard Business School. Is that right?

Brittany Holley [00:22:55] He did a while after, you know, we went out there with this plan, oh, we'll just be here a couple of years for this job and then we'll move back west. And then it's like I got into school and was like, okay, I've got to finish my degree. And then when I was coming up on finishing my bsn, he wanted to go to business school. So he applied to some schools and got into a couple and ended up. We ended up choosing Harvard to stay there. You know, in the area where we were. I had a job after school and everything lined up. So we stayed in the Boston area. So this is like four, four years after being there. He went to business school. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Okay. And that's pretty intense. That whole kind of Harvard friends, Harvard community, like a lot of intellectuals. You know, Cambridge has a long tradition of sort of thinky, intellectual Mormons, right?

Brittany Holley [00:23:46] Yes. Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, we were, you know, we lived right at the top of the Red Line, which is the same subway line that you take to Harvard and MIT and, you know, stuff like that. So. And we were in the congregation that met right behind the temple there, so in Boston. And it was literally like five minutes up the road from us. So, yeah, it was a very intellectual community.

Brittany Holley [00:24:13] A lot of the people we went to church with were Harvard Divinity students, you know, stuff like that. So there was definitely, I would say, more. More of a liberal approach to Mormonism, I guess, in a sense. I mean, there was a lot more schools of thought happening there that I had not really ever heard before, I guess. So it was, you know, I was like, you know, this is interesting, or these people are very different than like Utah, you know, Utah believing Mormons. But I think a lot of that had to do with culture as well, you know, so it was, it was an interesting experience.

Brittany Holley [00:24:56] But, you know, I'm kind of a quiet person. I like to observe and listen and stuff like that. So I just kind of, you know, just did my thing and listened and, you know, either agreed or disagreed or thought, wow, that's a way out there idea, you know, about, you know, religion or the church or the gospel. I haven't heard that before. So there was definitely a broader sense of belief out there, I guess, or just context of belief, but.

Brittany Holley [00:25:21] But, you know, I made sure I went to the temple and did, you know, my, you know, baptisms for the dead with the youth or went and did endowment ceilings, you know, and stuff like that, you know, throughout the time we were there, definitely, you know.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] And did you guys start having kids in Boston then?

Brittany Holley [00:25:39] We did, yeah. So we did have our oldest and then our second a year before we left. But, yeah, two of our children are from. From. From Winchester. So, yes, they were born out there. So. So, yeah, it was, you know, entering new motherhood away from my family was, you know, it was a struggle, but I had my. My friends at church. It was that we're having kids the same time I was, which, you know, you have this kind of bond. Bond and belief. Bond in community, bond in motherhood. Those sorts of things definitely were a huge support system for me.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] We have a listener, Jody Arbon Aldous. She says, Holley, love you, my friends. So some of your friends are joining us live.

Brittany Holley [00:26:32] Oh, my goodness. I love you, too, Jody. And happy birthday. So. So, yeah.

Early Seeds of Doubt and Faith Crisis Begins

John Dehlin [00:26:40] So when did. So when. Is there anything else that's important about your story? Before kind of the one of your faith start. Starts at your religious faith starts unraveling. Anything else you want to say about that?

Brittany Holley [00:26:52] I guess I would just say, you know, just to hit back on, you know, I did, you know, Scott and I traveled before we had kids. We went and revisited his mission. We've been to Mexico several times. You know, we. We definitely had.

Brittany Holley [00:27:08] And rich life, you know, together with friends, had a lot of fun. You know, we learned how to be social without drinking, before we even drank, you know, so. Which I think is an important thing, and it'll make more sense down the road. But, you know, we learned how, you know, how to talk to people without the social lubricant of alcohol, you know, those sorts of things. I mean, we have these skills kind of already there.

Brittany Holley [00:27:37] So, you know, sometimes we lose our skills when we don't exercise them. But, yeah, we just, you know, we had a very rich and full life. It was not complicated, I guess I would say, like, you know, I think the nice thing about, you know, our faith at the time is everything was very straightforward and comfortable. I guess. Like, nothing seemed too much of a challenge. But I also had this underlying current of feeling like I was on a spiritual plateau that I was on, you know, Like, I had entertained some doubts myself about the Book of Mormon, but I just didn't give it the light that it needed shed on it because we're taught never to do that, taught not to doubt, you know, doubt your doubts is, you know, kind of like, okay, like, I'm doubting.

Brittany Holley [00:28:31] I guess I'm just gonna delve into my scriptures more and, you know, work harder at My calling and things will be fine, you know, but there was a comfort in that, even though it wasn't great, you know, so. So, yeah, I guess that's what I would add.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Before we started to hit a spiritual plateau.

Brittany Holley [00:28:49] Yeah, I would say yes. We had done a Relief Society Book of Mormon reading challenge one summer, and this was the summer before this whole thing started to unravel. And I just remember reading it and feeling very differently about the book than I did as a youth, you know, So I just got this feeling that this was a story, you know, that Joseph. It was kind of like an allegory, you know, like, this is his life transposed into this story, you know, Or I just. I didn't know what I was really. What was unsettling to me, but I just felt a little bit like. Like, that's interesting. I don't feel the same confirmation, I guess, like I did before about its authenticity.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] And this was while you were in Boston still?

Brittany Holley [00:29:45] Yes. Yeah. So this was in 2011.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Okay.

Brittany Holley [00:29:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] And so when you were. So you're reading the Book of Mormon, you're starting to say, hey, something doesn't feel right. Did you tell Scott?

Brittany Holley [00:29:59] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Because isn't that interesting that we don't tell the person that we love and trust most when we start going through this stuff?

Brittany Holley [00:30:08] Yeah. You know, and I think we tend to do that a lot with a lot of things. I think it's hard to be vulnerable and say, look, you know, I'm uncertain about something when you've been giving off this, you know, Persona of I've got my shit together, I guess, you know, you know, when. When we don't. We don't want people to understand we're struggling with stuff, but that's when we need it the most. And that's something I've learned along the way.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Okay, so did you start questioning before Scott?

Brittany Holley [00:30:41] Oh, no, no. He actually. And I guess I should jump back just a little bit. He actually. When he started working for the business consulting group that he worked for out in Boston, he. When Google alerts came up as a thing, he Google alerted to have emails sent to his Google account about anything that popped up about the church or Mormonism or that sort of thing. So this was a couple years into our marriage, actually. And I remember we were just on our fall foliage frolic, as we called it, because we lived in the Northeast. We got to go leaf peeping and all that stuff up in Vermont, New Hampshire and all that.

Brittany Holley [00:31:22] He brought up his concerns about some things he had read that kind of started making him question and I shut him down. I totally shut him down. I was like, I can't listen to this. I'm not going to listen to you.

Brittany Holley [00:31:39] You're about to rock my world if you start going this path. And I was very young, you know, and I was very kind of naive to a lot of things, I guess, you know, and. Yeah, so I just didn't want to. I didn't want to hear it. So I just was like, don't, don't talk to me about it. Like we're just gonna buckle down and just keep this train rolling, you know?

Brittany Holley [00:32:04] So he did. He shut down. And that's just like, I look back and I'm just like, that was a huge opportunity to connect and I just cut it off. And so. But that's, you know, I was working with what I had then, so I definitely, you know, have moved past those negative feelings about what I did then.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] But, yeah, and I. If I can just. I just, I do these very occasionally. I do a coaching moment. And I just want to say I've worked with many, many couples over the past year, mixed faith couples and couples who've left the church. And this is a pattern I'm seeing more and more clearly where one of the members of the relationship starts losing their faith. They try to share with the other partner. The other partner is a believer, and they're very scared. They shut it down. And I'm so awestruck by the damage that can occur in the aftermath of that where the non believer just gets the message that they can't be authentic, that they can't be honest, that they can't trust their loved one with their vulnerabilities. That leads to secret behaviors, that leads to resentment. That leads to a behavior of hiding. Not because the person wants to be dishonest.

Brittany Holley [00:33:25] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] And it's not because the believer doesn't love their spouse. It's just so terrifying. And then you fast forward 1, 2, 3 years and all sorts of destruction can happen just stemming from that. That inability to connect over something so important.

Brittany Holley [00:33:44] Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, we definitely send messages we don't intend to send, you know, like, you know. You know, I feel awful that I was just so shut down at that point, but I didn't know how else to be. You know, I didn't. Of course, I didn't know. You know, the unknown is so scary, you know, when I. When I work in a system where I know everything about God and all this stuff. If you throw in A curveball there. I'm gonna freak out, you know, and. And I did. And I remember it just being very, you know, depressing and whatever, but it just kind of dissipated. And we didn't really talk about it after that.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] But Sean's asking. Sean's asking really quick. Are there any parts of the Book of Mormon you remember reading and seeing Joseph's life portrayed in the story? I mean, obviously, for me, the ones that usually come up the Tree of Life, the tree dream with the iron rod and the great and spacious building, that's all a story that Joseph Smith Sr. Joseph's dad had and wrote about and talked about prior to the Book of Mormon ever getting published. And then the fact that Nephi was a younger brother and had older brothers, that could be a little rough. Again, that Joseph Smith had older brothers that, you know, Alvin and.

Brittany Holley [00:35:08] Yeah, right. Right off the bat, it was the Nephi story for me.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Okay.

Brittany Holley [00:35:13] Yeah. It definitely just made me, you know, and then given the context, you know, I mean, as a youth, you just. You. You're so gusto about your faith. Like, you just. You just want to believe it so bad, you know, so you do, and you believe it for what it is, and you don't really have much else as far as context around it. You know, as you grow up and see the world a little bit bigger, a little bit differently, I think gives you more context to the story. So. So that was definitely, you know, it just. I felt like I was reading a completely different book than I did when I was a youth. So.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Yeah.

Brittany Holley [00:35:48] Okay. And I don't know if that was a result of, you know, being in a very highly educated. You know, I was in school thinking a lot, taking classes in philosophy and stuff, like, you know, so in psychology and sociology, you know, I saw the world a little bit bigger, had a little bit different perspective.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] But even so, when Scott had come to you, you weren't ready for that yet.

Brittany Holley [00:36:08] No, no, because this was only two years into our marriage. So, you know, I was just kind of in the beginnings of my going to school and seeing the world a little bit differently. But. But, yeah, he definitely, you know, through Prop 8, he. My husband, struggled with that, with the church's involvement in California. So, you know, he definitely, you know, continued to focus, you know, some of his doubts secretly from me and concerns secretly from me. I was very much involved in school. And so, I mean, I was commuting for school. I was gone all day. He was working many long hours, traveling for work.

Brittany Holley [00:36:48] So the real opportunity to connect and really have these discussions just didn't happen. And, you know, it was just the stage of life we were in, being very much like, consumed with school, kids, you know, life, that sort of thing. You know, church was just kind of on autopilot, I guess, in a sense.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] Yeah. And that's so common for so. So many couples.

Brittany Holley [00:37:14] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Sarah's saying I'll have to reread the Book of Mormon from this perspective of kind of Joseph's biographical story. Sarah, a great book to read about that is Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, where he really does very well articulate the main five sources of the Book of Mormon for those who, yeah, were open to believing that it wasn't a translation of an ancient record.

Brittany Holley [00:37:40] Yeah. And, you know, I was having these feelings about this, you know, that before I even ran, before I even read Graham Palmer's book, because, yeah, I mean, it just. And then when I read his book, I was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. You know, but that was a little further down the road.

Deepening Doubts and Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Okay, so you start having doubts as you read the Book of Mormon in 2011. How did it go from there?

Brittany Holley [00:38:03] So, you know, I just, you know, I just, like I said, I just kind of put a blanket over those doubts and said, you know, I'm just not going to deal with those or dive deeper into them because, you know, I'm working with the youth. I'm a mom. You know, I've got this role as a woman, you know, and a mother and faithful person to keep, you know, plugging through it. So.

Brittany Holley [00:38:25] So I. So that summer, you know, I had noticed some changes in my husband, and they were changes like, my husband loves to sing. We were in a church choir, those sorts of things. And I love to sing. And, you know, I just, you know, noticed him at church, looking at him like, why aren't you singing the hymns anymore? Like, you know, he just kind of shut down.

Brittany Holley [00:38:47] And I was like, what's up with you? You know, but anytime I was like, let's go to the temple. He was like, no, no. You know, and I mean. And it wasn't like I was questioning, like, well, why don't you want to go to the temple? It was more like, okay. And I just felt unsupported, I guess, in a sense, at that point. But, yeah, I just.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] And this is so hard because the husband, the non believer becomes viewed as, well, you're not a righteous priesthood holder. You're not upholding your end of the deal. You're a slacker.

Brittany Holley [00:39:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Spiritual slacker. And the believer starts to lose, you know, they're kind of not affection for, but like their respect for the non believer, even though non believers got good reasons. From the believers standpoint, you're just being weak and feeble and not right.

Brittany Holley [00:39:39] Yeah. You know, and I just thought, okay, like, you know, he's busy, he's in school, you know, or he's. I mean, I guess at this point he was done with school and he was working a new job and. And stuff like that. So, you know, I just.

Brittany Holley [00:39:51] And I was focused again on, you know, my little baby at home and my. My newborn, you know, my. My daughter, our second child, you know, was born in December. And, you know, we just, you know, it wasn't until I just couldn't take it anymore, and I really was just like, all right, we need to have a conversation, you know, like, what's going on with you? We were in the IKEA parking lot down south of Boston. I was just like, what is going on with you? And he just kind of was like, brittany, I'm just really, you know, struggling and, you know, the historicity of like, the earth and dinosaur, you know, like all this stuff.

Brittany Holley [00:40:31] And I was just like, you know, I just never gave it much thought. And he's just like, I just. I'm really, you know, having a hard time. And I remember I bought him rough stone rolling, like, for Christmas one year, thinking, oh, this will, you know, help him along his journey and learning about the church and whatever. And, yeah, I just was like, you know, so. So what does this mean? Like, what does it mean that you don't believe, you know, in the. In the, you know, historicity of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's story? Like, he's like, there's different accounts to the first vision, and I'm just like, what?

Brittany Holley [00:41:06] Like, you know, like, I was just kind of like, what do you mean? Like, there's all this other information out there. And I just, you know, I was like, well, what does this mean for our eternal marriage if you don't believe this anymore?

Brittany Holley [00:41:20] That really threw me because, like, we were supposed to be forever, you know. You know, this was, you know, we'd been doing all the right things. How was this happening? So. So, yeah, he slowly, you know, he definitely was very much involved with, you know, it started. He had started listening to the Mormon Stories podcast, and he had started, you know, you know, delving into certain things, you know, the lgbtq, you know, community and its place or non place in the church became an issue for him. You know, he just, you know, he's got the biggest heart on the planet. And so, you know, he just couldn't, you know, and I see it now, you know, there's just.

Brittany Holley [00:42:05] You begin to question, is there a place for everybody? Is there a place for me, like in this system anymore, in this institution anymore? And so I think he began to feel that, you know, as he was learning more and more so. And I don't want to speak too much for what he was feeling at the time, but.

Brittany Holley [00:42:25] Because that's for him to say, but for me, I definitely just. My guard was up. I was defensive of the church. I was like, don't question my beliefs. You know, like, I believe these things solidly and this is why. And, and I just, I was so confused and upset and I didn't know what to do. Like, to be honest, I was without resources on how to deal with a spouse that was questioning the church extensively to the point of non belief. So, yeah, we, in the middle of this, we decided to move back west to Washington.

Brittany Holley [00:43:10] So we ended up kind of. I mean, it was definitely a strained time in our marriage because I didn't really know what it meant, but we were moving back west. We moved closer to my parents. And he stayed back in Boston for about six weeks, actually, with Jody. Jodi Aldiss had Thanksgiving dinner with her and her family and packed up my kids and got on a plane and Scott stayed behind to pack up the rest of the apartment that we had been in and we moved back, back west. So it was a very dark and depressing Christmas and period of time.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Because of the Mormon thing?

Brittany Holley [00:43:55] Yes. Yeah. I didn't know what it meant. Like, I did not know.

Fears and Emotional Toll of Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:43:58] What were your biggest fears?

Brittany Holley [00:44:00] My biggest fear was. Losing her eternal marriage was definitely something, you know, I mean, I was. I was scared, I think the unknown of what was coming down the road because I didn't quite grasp what the full picture was going to be. And this is where just a lot of anxiety came in depression for me. You know, I was also a mom of two young kids. I had lived away from home for 10 years.

Brittany Holley [00:44:32] You know, I was moving in with my believing parents in the middle of this. Like, I don't know what's happening to my marriage right now. You know, I just didn't know what was in the future for Scott and I. And it's crazy to think that at this point because it's like that's not. I didn't marry him because of the church. But it's such an ingrained part of your relationship.

Brittany Holley [00:44:56] It's just so enmeshed together, your belief system with your spouse. You know, I thought we were one in the same. You know, we believed the same. I thought we had the same, you know, everything. And so I just, you know, it was very confusing and scary, and I just didn't know if our marriage could survive it because, you know, love is love. But, you know, when you completely feel like your world's breaking apart and you feel like you don't know your own spouse, because then they're revealing all this stuff that you didn't know was there.

Brittany Holley [00:45:33] You know, it was kind of intimidating and scary. And so my defenses went up. You know, they definitely. I felt like I needed to defend the church. I felt very belittled when we would talk about anything, because I've always, you know, my insecurity is always then, and I'm getting over this, but that. My husband, he's a very smart man. And so it was hard for me to feel stupid.

Brittany Holley [00:45:59] Like, is there something I'm missing here? You know? And it felt very threatening to feel like he was on this different page than I was intellectually about the church. I'm like, I thought I knew everything, you know, or I thought. I thought I, you know, knew everything. And then I was like, do I? You know, And I remember, you know, over Christmas, after we moved and, you know, we.

Brittany Holley [00:46:26] I got to this point, and I remember having a conversation with you, John, and it was either the day after Christmas, but you took time to call me on and walk me off the ledge, and I.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] Do. We do. Like a phone call with me, you and Scott. Isn't that.

Brittany Holley [00:46:39] Yes. Yes. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] I remember I was walking around the track at Utah State university during my PhD program.

Brittany Holley [00:46:46] Yeah. Yeah. I'm forever grateful for that. That conversation.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] So what did we talk about? Do you remember any of that?

Brittany Holley [00:46:53] You know, it's very blurry in my memory at this point, but I just remember feeling much more confident that we could make it through this. And it sparked this idea that I could question things, too. You know, it's okay. Like, it's okay to question. So, yeah, so we, you know, had that conversation with you. I felt a little better. We were living with my parents. My parents picked up on something going on. We did not open up to them explicitly. Like, we're in this faith crisis right now, or Scott is. And, you know, I just. Yeah, we had a hard. A hard, hard winter. That winter. And I know he was involved with, you know, Mormon stories. He helped crunch some data for you, I believe, on the why people leave.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] The whole Marlon Jensen, Hans Mattson thing, Scott, was a really important part of the data collection analysis.

Brittany Holley [00:47:57] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I hit the lowest of lows in the faith crisis period with my marriage was about February of 2012. And I just felt I had two choices. I could choose church, the church, or my family. Like, I really felt like it came down to that at the end of the day for me, and that's my own personal experience, but I chose my family. And I said, I'm going to open my mind to the possibility that I might be wrong about everything I've ever known. And that was a huge step for me.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] Let me just ask you there. I'm imagining there's a lot of Mormons out there that are like, what are you talking about? You don't have to choose between your religion and your family. You know, both tell us why you felt that you needed to choose. Does that make sense?

Brittany Holley [00:48:53] Yeah, I guess I couldn't really imagine if I still believed strongly about eternal marriage, the role of the temple, sealing, that sort of thing. Like, I just, I didn't. I didn't think I could be in a relationship where that wasn't a centrical part of it, you know, and it. I just, you know, it's. It's hard to. Hard to explain, like, why I felt that. You know, I look back, of course, hindsight's always different. You know, we look back with new eyes every time we look backwards.

Brittany Holley [00:49:32] But, you know, at the end of the day, maybe it would have worked differently, you know, if I had been at a different place of mind, I guess maybe I wouldn't have felt that, but I don't know. But I knew I had to open my mind. I needed to understand my husband. I needed to understand where he was coming from. And so I felt like I needed to go down that pathway.

Brittany Holley [00:49:56] And I still went to church. Like, this was not like, I'm done. I'm not going to. I still stayed in the church for a year and a half after he talked to me about his doubts that first time in the parking lot.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] And just to give my two cents on that, too, especially the way we were raised as Mormons. And of course, the church now in 2019, is starting to create spaces for progressive and liberal Mormonism. But. But certainly when we were raised, there was only one way to be a Mormon that was any way approved or official. So if you really take celestial marriage and temple marriage and all the covenants? Seriously? Why wouldn't you want to divorce your spouse if they abandoned all their covenants? Right? So I'm just saying that's the conclusion that a lot of people arrive at. It's like, this is why we got married. This is the whole point of everything. This is why we're on the earth.

Brittany Holley [00:50:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] If you're not on board, then you're

Brittany Holley [00:51:01] not with me then. Sorry. Like, yeah. So strong feelings, you know, during that time, you know, and looking back, it's like, no, I married my husband for other reasons than the church, too. So thank goodness. Thank goodness those are, you know, those are still there and intact. So.

Brittany Holley [00:51:20] So, yeah, so I felt, you know, compelled to open my mind to, you know, say I might be wrong about this stuff. So kind of fast forward a little bit, you know, eventually, like, he's so anxious every Saturday night. I'm like, just stop going to church. Like, this is not healthy for you anymore. Like, why would I request that you be here when it's so uncomfortable for you?

Brittany Holley [00:51:44] So I'm questioning, questioning, questioning. You know, reading books like Fawn Brody's, you know, no man knows my history. You know, Grant Palmer. I am talking to people in Facebook groups, Mormon stories, Facebook groups, listening to Mormon stories, podcasts. You know, I just opened up this floodgate of information, which was super helpful, but also very scary. So kind of fast forward to the summer. You know, I went to girls camp as this camp moment that summer, because I was in the youth program again, and I had so much anxiety there, and I was just like, what am I doing here? Like, I'm not believing this stuff anymore.

Brittany Holley [00:52:26] Like, I started seeing things as manipulative or, you know, it's like, you know, very, very boxed in. I felt very boxed in the institution and in the. In the church at that time, but I was still going because I needed to see it through.

Brittany Holley [00:52:44] So I needed to see where I was going to fall as far as my beliefs anymore. So as I was doing my own research and doing my own thinking and real deep thinking, I spent a lot of my hours of a day just thinking about religion, thinking about people, thinking about the world, thinking about stories and beliefs and the history of the church and how it fits into everything.

Brittany Holley [00:53:17] So I just, you know, after I got back from girls camp, I decided I was kind of done with the temple, took off my garments and, you know, felt very, very vulnerable in the sense of, like, oh, my gosh, if my parents see me in a sleeveless shirt, you know, shame, shame, shame.

Brittany Holley [00:53:36] You know, just like, I, you know, yeah, it was such an interesting period of time because I had one foot in, one foot out. Like, I'm going, yeah, I know Mormon

John Dehlin [00:53:48] women that like, stop wearing their garments, stop going to the temple, stop believing, but they keep a pair of garments just so that if their parents or in laws are in town, they can throw them on. Not to deceive, but just because they are afraid of what the reactions will be.

Brittany Holley [00:54:05] Absolutely. It is scary. You just. We do things for other people to please them, to say, you know, we're still good. You know, we're still good here. I'm not off the straight and narrow path too far, you know, but I just, you know, as I was, you know, kind of going through this feminist awakening as well. Like, you know, the whole, you know, women being responsible for men's thoughts, you know, the, you know, a V neck shirt. I remember in one of our beehive classes, a V neck shirt was off the straight and narrow path. And I was just like, are you kidding me? Like, we're gonna sexualize, you know?

Brittany Holley [00:54:43] And I was myself so uncomfortable in my own skin for so long. It was just like. Then the table turned for me. But I just like all these things were kind of unraveling and like, the ordain women movement started kind of working its way through with Kate Kelly and everything. And I just. There was the wear pants to church day, and I wore pants to church. Dang it. So I was like, okay, we're going to step in here.

How Alcohol Entered Brittany's Life

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1187

Brittany Holley [00:00:00] Sa. So I wanted to just kind of introduce, you know, how alcohol kind of came into. Into the picture because I was still attending and I was in my faith, you know, examination process at that time. And that summer we moved into a house that we had just built into a new neighborhood. And we, you know, we didn't have a lot of new friends. You know, we were kind of beginning to step out of our church community more.

Brittany Holley [00:00:57] And so, you know, as we're moving into this new neighborhood, you know, we see, you know, someone walking down the street. Hi, who are you? Like, nice to meet you. Would you like to come over for a barbecue? So this guy, his name was Dallas, you know, just met him, brought a six pack of beer with him. And, you know, it's like, okay, well, I don't really believe in the, you know, the word of wisdom per se anymore, the Doctrine Covenants for what it was, you know, so it was like, okay, well, why. Why wouldn't we try a drink, you know, why wouldn't we, you know, experiment a little bit here?

Brittany Holley [00:01:34] And so we didn't drink anything at that point in time with this neighbor who brought the six pack of beer, but we. We kept it. So. And we didn't toss it. So Scott's like, well, you know, should we, you know, just give it a try and see what it's like? And I was like, okay, you know, like. But I've got some concerns, you know, like, his side of the family has a history of alcoholism.

Brittany Holley [00:02:03] So I was concerned at the get go, like, maybe we were entering something that, you know, could, you know, be problematic in the future, I guess. So I was like, okay, well, we're gonna set some boundaries with it. We, you know, we can drink, but, you know, we're not ever gonna drink alone. You know, we are not going to, you know, excessively drink or anything like that.

Brittany Holley [00:02:31] You know, I don't want my parents to know about this, you know, sort of thing because they live in our community. So we kind of set some boundaries in the beginning. And so we tasted our first sip of beer that night, and I thought it was disgusting, but, you know, time rolling forward, you know, Scott was like, well, let's try wine. And so tried some red wine. He went on his mission to Chile, and I believe the first bottle he bought was a Chilean wine, red wine.

Brittany Holley [00:03:02] And so we tried that. And I was like, okay, that's, you know, that's. That's different. Very different, you know, from anything I've ever tasted, because I was used to my hot cocoa and my, you know, sugary sodas and, you know, those sorts of things. So it was a different flavor for me.

Brittany Holley [00:03:20] And then moving forward, you know, it wasn't until, like, we bought a champagne, something bubbly, and I threw some blueberry mixer in it, like, that I was like, okay. You know, I can. I can actually tolerate drinking that.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] So it always starts out being. And I've never. Just for my audience, I've still not tried alcohol, so I'm weird that way. I'm 50 years old. I was kicked out of the church. Like, I have every reason. I can't go a week without somebody offering it to me. And for some reason, I've still never tried it. But everyone always says, at first, I don't like it. It's not good. Like, it was gross. Tastes like paint thinner. It's always that kind of stuff, right?

Brittany Holley [00:03:59] Yeah. You know, and it's interesting. You know, it's like, okay, well, maybe my body was actually telling me, this isn't good for you. And that is gross for a reason. But. But. So, you know, but there became this, like, social aspect of it. So, like, as time moved forward, I mean, this is the summer of 2012, that we had our first sip, and then we got pregnant with our third child in September that year. And so, like, obviously, I put a hold on drinking or trying different alcohols, because, I mean, there's so many drinks out there, so many different types of mixed drinks, whatever to try.

Brittany Holley [00:04:39] And we live in a community where there's a lot of craft breweries here, wineries, those sorts of things. So they're close by. It's like, part of the culture here. You know, plenty of bars close by to go to as well. So, I mean, we hadn't really started dabbling in the social aspect of it too much at that point. You know, we'd open a bottle of wine, and it was, you know, maybe we drank half of it. So we each had a glass, and that was it.

Brittany Holley [00:05:06] So. So I get pregnant with my. You know, we get pregnant with our third child. We, you know, I turned 30 in January of 2013 and was like, I was pregnant. And I had friends visiting from Boston who had no idea that I was leaving on my way out of the church, that I was drinking at all, because they were my friends that drank, you know, but I never hung out with them that way out in Boston. They were my nursing school friends, and they, you know, I was like, well, I'm turning 30, so I'm gonna have a glass of wine on my 30th birthday, and I don't care if I'm pregnant.

Brittany Holley [00:05:47] So, like, I began to just, like, make these little justifications in my head that, you know, it's not that much. It's doing no harm, you know, whatever. People in France drink wine when they're pregnant, whatever. So I just, you know, started making these justifications in my head.

Drinking Escalates During a Vulnerable Period

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Okay, so up to that point, how long have you been drinking prior to sort of drinking when you were pregnant?

Brittany Holley [00:06:08] Only like, a couple months.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] And it was. And it was again, it was like once a week. How.

Brittany Holley [00:06:14] Maybe. Maybe once a week? Yeah. Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Glass of wine, glass of beer.

Brittany Holley [00:06:18] Or we go out to dinner and I'm going to have a martini. I. You know, and I think.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] And when you start, is it like, oh, this will never be a problem. I've got this.

Brittany Holley [00:06:26] Yeah, yeah. I'm in control. Like, I've got total control of this situation. Right. Like, I'm being cautious about it. I've always thought of myself as a very responsible person. So I was like, I've got this. Like, I'm in control. Good. So those are the things we tell ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Okay, and how long did it take before it went from tasting awful to being okay?

Brittany Holley [00:06:50] It probably took, you know, like, I don't know, a couple months. Okay. I mean, it was still with. I mean, because I got pregnant pretty quickly after trying the first drink. I didn't really start delving into different drinks very quickly. But. Yeah, so I, you know, looking back, it's like, okay, you know, it started off very innocent, very much in a controlled situation, I thought, you know, but, you know, I don't. It was like, well, I'm never gonna be the drunk person on the side of the road puking. I'm never gonna be the person, the homeless person with a bottle in a bag, you know, like, those things. Like, I'm not that. Like, I'm very separate from that. So I'm not. That's not who I am. So. So fast forward to, like, Scott and I traveled to Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Oh, and really quick, is it pretty. Is it pretty established that pregnant women shouldn't drink alcohol? I mean, you're a nurse.

Brittany Holley [00:07:42] Absolutely. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Because it's bad for the baby. And you're a nurse, so you know

Brittany Holley [00:07:46] that I know this, and I totally.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] And I'm not trying to shame you. I'm just saying this is how it happens.

Brittany Holley [00:07:51] Yeah, this is how it happens. We all make, you know, and I. And I'll tell you along the way here that I've made some very poor Choices along the way. So, yeah, so that was probably my first, like, you know, I'm being kind of irresponsible with it, you know, moment. But, you know, it was funny because my dad had forgotten something at my house and my friends were there on my birthday and we had our wine out and my dad had forgotten his, like, tablet or something at the house. And he came back and he knocked on the door and we're like, hide the wine, like shoving it under the sink.

Brittany Holley [00:08:23] Like, we're 14, you know, hide it. I don't want them to know. Especially because wasn't pregnant. And they would be like, I would feel ashamed or a disappointment to my family. You know, I was already a disappointment for leaving the church in my own head. And I was, you know, gonna.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] And of course, of course all, all believing Mormons think that the first thing any ex Mormon is gonna do is start drinking alcohol.

Brittany Holley [00:08:49] Right, Right. Yeah. And I didn't want to be like this.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] The stereotype.

Brittany Holley [00:08:54] Yeah, I did not want to be the stereotype. I mean, that was not why I left the church. I did not leave the church so I could drink. Other reasons, I mean, but I was still going at this time. So again, I was living the double life in a way. And so, you know, I definitely. That spring, you know, before Scott and I had our third child, you know, we. The communication about where we were, where our relationship was in regards to, you know, like the church and like, expectations, you know, now that had shifted within the marriage, you know, regarding drinking and, you know, all sorts of things.

Brittany Holley [00:09:36] It was like, you know, what are we doing on Sundays now? You know, and I wasn't like, let's go find another church. And he was kind of like, well, should we try some other ones? And it was like, I don't really feel like doing that. So we had some communication issues. And so we did go to the Gottman Institute workshop down in Seattle for a couple days.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] And that's. That's top notch stuff. John Gottman and his wife, they've done some of the best research in the world on how to make a marriage healthy and happy.

Brittany Holley [00:10:07] Yes. And so I was like, we need something here. You know, we need something to get through this. Because this whole faith crisis thing has been like the biggest upheaval, you know, we've had in our marriage. So we went to that, got some really great tools, really good workshop. I, hands down, have recommended it to several friends who are going, you know, through difficult times. Like, I think it's extremely helpful.

Brittany Holley [00:10:34] It's a great Workshop and, and he's got YouTube videos and books and all that stuff. Really, really great resources. But I think that was like the first time I was like, okay, we are both very human right now in this, you know, in this part of our lives. And we need to be, you know, really just, you know, the walls need to come down.

Brittany Holley [00:10:55] So that spring, I wrote a letter to my family saying I was done with the church or that I was going to go on a six month hiatus from it, just to, you know, because I really started feeling like an outsider looking in.

Brittany Holley [00:11:09] You know, I'd opened up to my primary or my young women's presidency that I was working with at the time, just like sharing my concerns and, you know, I mean, and I went to my bishop and asked to be released.

Brittany Holley [00:11:20] At one point I just, I just couldn't feel good about teaching stuff I didn't believe in anymore because I just, it wasn't something I could do. Like, it just created a lot of anxiety and a lot of internal discord. So I wrote this letter to my family and friends and I'm very grateful that my family didn't disown me or shame me. They said, we love you no matter what. I have a sister that left the church long ago, and I think they've always held out hope that she would come back. And for a period of time, I think my parents. Parents probably held out that same hope for me until I was very verbal about not returning to the church a couple years later.

Brittany Holley [00:12:02] But yeah, so I was done. I said, you know, I just, I need to move on from this. Like, I've spent the last couple years now just delving into this, you know, and I've come to my own conclusions and I'm tired of living for this eternity that I no longer believe in right now.

Brittany Holley [00:12:21] So I just, I couldn't, couldn't continue. So. And this is right before our third child was born. So, you know, there's things like, okay, there's not gonna be a baby blessing, you know, there's not gonna be, you know, those things. What are we gonna do about raising our kids now? You know, like, there's still a lot of questions that were happening and, and a lot of pain, you know, like, being a disappointment to my family was huge.

Brittany Holley [00:12:46] I never, as a, as a youth, that was such a driver for me, you know, like, just proving to my parents that I could be this great kid who was on the straight and narrow path and, you know, to tell them, like, sorry, I'm done with this path was Extremely painful.

Questioning Whether Drinking Was Healthy

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Let me ask you, did you consider, did you ever consider. Cause this is where Mormonism is going today in 2019. It's this idea that you can be a Mormon on your own terms. I've heard Carolyn, Fiona Givens and others that are basically saying Patrick Mason talks about a truth cart. You know, and I talked about this early on about just being a buffet Mormon or a liberal where like you drink alcohol when you want, you go to church when you want, you pay whatever percent and you just, you be a Mormon just like a Presbyterian or a Methodist or a Lutheran, you stay in the church, but you just do what you want and it's nobody's business what you do in your private life. Did you guys consider that option or not really?

Brittany Holley [00:13:44] I'm trying to think back. You know, I didn't really feel like that was a path for me at the time. And it still feels kind of wrong in my own head right now to even think about trying to do it that way. And I know that works for some people and I feel like I'm happy for them. I know people stay for the community. You know, they might do it their own way, but that's okay. Like, you know, you've got to do what you've got to do.

Brittany Holley [00:14:10] You know, for me personally, I just couldn't, you know, I don't think I could have ever walked into an interview with a bishop and, you know, felt like I could be my, my true self or truly just be like, yeah, I don't believe this, but why do I want to go to the temple anyway? You know, like, why, why am I, why am I continuing to participate in these things and then put myself at, you know, like basically creating this fissure within myself, you know, like, I don't believe it, so why am I pretending that I am, you know, or that I do? You know, I just, I, I couldn't do it for myself.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Yeah. And because the church asks that they have those worthiness interviews to go to the temple and, and they have tithing, you know, tithing settlement where.

Brittany Holley [00:14:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Oh, they're asking how much you're paying and if you're 100% tithe payer, it kind of, it doesn't leave people the flexibility of having this private life that's no longer right.

Brittany Holley [00:15:10] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] You have to be a liar to be a lighter liar or hide or you tell the truth and you get in trouble and who wants to do it?

Brittany Holley [00:15:18] Yeah. You know, and it's interesting because, you know, there's that term priesthood roulette. Like, my husband, he did talk to our bishop out east, and he basically pushed his recommend across the table to his bishop or bishop at the time and said, I just don't know if I believe in this stuff anymore. And the bishop passed it back to him. You know, I don't think that would have happened here in my ward here. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Oh, yeah. He says, I don't care. Right?

Brittany Holley [00:15:42] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's just like, I don't know. I don't even know if I want to. Like, why should I have to do that? I mean, like, why should I have to, like, be worthy of God's presence in my life? Why should I have to even have this interview? You know what I mean? Like, there were things that were just becoming difficult for me to reconcile in my head, like, as a reason why I would put myself in that position. So, you know, I didn't. I didn't want to go to the temple. You know, I don't feel like I need a worthiness interview to, you know, have God in my life for a higher power or whatever you want to call it.

Brittany Holley [00:16:19] I guess I should say at the end of my faith crisis, I kind of came out as an agnostic, and I probably relate more with Buddhism than anything at this point, but.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah.

Brittany Holley [00:16:32] Yeah. So. So, yeah, so as we, you know, kind of move forward, I had, you know, our child. You know, we're still kind of mulling around in these emotions of, you know, guilt or shame or, you know, being a disappointment, appointment to family to, you know, our friends at church, or, you know, we just, you know, it's an uncomfortable place to be, let's just put it that way.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Yeah, totally.

Brittany Holley [00:16:55] Yeah, it was really uncomfortable. And so, you know, and as we were, you know, I felt rejected by my community. You know, when I did the Wear the pants to church day, I had parents of young women, you know, some of my youth, like, tell their girls they needed to unfriend me on Facebook over that, you know, or if I was outspoken, if I spoke up about anything, you know, regarding the LGBTQ community or, you know, something else. Like, my ideas and my thoughts were not accepted, you know, and I just felt, you know, very rejected from. From the community. Even my own Relief Society president, who I grew up babysitting her daughter, you know, like, axed me off for Facebook.

Brittany Holley [00:17:35] You know, it's just like, this is. I'm just not going to put myself in these painful places anymore. So I was done. But those Emotions still remain, you know, of feeling rejected by a community that you loved by, you know, just your true friends stick with you. The ones that weren't your true friends but you thought were, you know, they back away like, you know, you're some plague to be avoided, you know, and they'll smile nice and whatever. But, yeah, it was hard.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Yeah. And you know that, you know, we talk about the LGBT community and how devastating it is to lose the respect of your family and friends and the community.

Brittany Holley [00:18:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] And, you know, we know that that leads to suicidality amongst the LGBT community from the Family Acceptance Project, work out of San Francisco State University and Caitlin Ryan. But post Mormons experience the same type of thing. It's devastating to have your whole worldview collapse. Now you're viewed as dark and loathsome by all family. You lose your community, you lose your whole sense of being. And that can.

Brittany Holley [00:18:45] Your identity.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Yeah, your identity, everything. And that can cause a lot of anxiety and depression. That then substances become really appealing because you're always sitting with this pain and anxiety and discomfort, and you want to self medicate. Because Mormonism didn't teach you how to deal with these negative emotions. No, some people self medicate and that's part of the deal, Right?

Brittany Holley [00:19:12] Yeah, we definitely. I would say, you know, definitely some of it, you know, and I look back, you know, and I didn't spend any of my early years after the church sober. You know, my husband and I, we had introduced alcohol as we were on the exit, you know, and that was more just like, okay, we're going to experiment a little. It wasn't like an intentional, like, I'm going to, you know, full out go crazy here. But, you know, then enter the fact that we just lost our tribe. You know, we lost our community. And we were looking for community. I mean, that's human nature.

Brittany Holley [00:19:50] To find community, to find me, you know, a sense of belonging, a sense of, you know, friendship and acceptance and love and open arms somewhere, like, please take us. You know, we just got rejected. And that's just. That's just human nature. And that's. And it is what it is. So we were, you know, in this neighborhood where houses were being built. A lot of the people who moved into the houses that were next door to us were Navy. We have a naval base close by. There's a huge drinking culture in the Navy. So I would say we were never really introduced to moderate or light drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:20:29] So, you know, we hosted like a Christmas party, invited our neighbors over. The booze started flowing, you know, and I was cautious in the beginning. It's like, okay, I'll have one drink and you feel the buzz. You feel that good feeling that alcohol gives you in the beginning, you know, most of us would drink at night, and then you sleep the hangover through because there is a physiological low that happens, you know, but if you keep drinking, you keep giving yourself that buzz. But over time, you hit a low. It's a depressant. People forget that it is a depressant, you know, and I, and I kind of disregarded that.

Brittany Holley [00:21:07] I just kind of like threw caution to the wind and, you know, we started drinking more with our neighbors and, you know, feeling that sense of community again, you know, through socializing, drinking. Alcohol was always involved because that's how they live their lives. So we kind of just got adopted in, you know, to this, this kind of Navy culture of drinking, playing games, singing, karaoke till two in the morning. I mean, it was like, it was ridiculous.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] And we were all fun, right?

Brittany Holley [00:21:39] It was, it was a lot of fun. And I guess, like, I would just say, like, you know, I didn't realize what was happening at the time. It was fun. And I was beginning to associate and believe that the way to have fun was through alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] And can I add one thing that is just. It's very personal. I don't want anyone to be hurt by this, but I'm just going to tell you my experience.

Brittany Holley [00:22:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] There's something about people drinking at a party or a get together where they seem to be uncomfortable if someone doesn't drink. And I would have always assumed that anyone who drinks is like super cool and chill about it. And they're like, hey, man, I drink, but I don't care if you do. I'm not gonna make an issue out of it.

Brittany Holley [00:22:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:28] But that's not what I've experienced. Like, if I go to a party with ex Mormons and everybody's drinking, literally no one is just like, oh, cool, you're having Sprite. That's awesome. It's like, you're not drinking. Why aren't you drinking? And then there's always kind of this, like, oh, well, you're too good, or, oh, you're still hanging onto that, or, oh, do you judge us? Or there's, there's always a lot of negativity around it, or at least kind

Brittany Holley [00:22:56] of, there's an undercurrent, you know, that, that's subtly there.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Yeah. In fact, I know a group of guys who get together, they're great guys, and they get together for this guy's night and they, they all drink. And I asked recently if I could attend the guys night and I was told no, you can't attend because you don't drink. And I'm thinking like Mormons are at least. I know Mormons that are okay if you drink or not. But anyway, there's something weird about the peer pressure that I just have not expected. And I actually have kids that have experienced this in sort of, let's just say college settings as well. Talk about that. Do you have any insight into that? Because I still don't totally get it.

Brittany Holley [00:23:38] Well, I think the thing about drinking is I think deep down, and this could be a result of our upbringing in the church where it's bad, you don't do it. It', godly, it's not pure. It's not. You know, that's the great and spacious building. Right? I mean, that is what it is. And if, and I think at least for me, at least in my experience, you know, I think people get really uncomfortable when someone is there in their presence that makes them look in their own mirror, you know, like, you know, that questions their drinking, like, when in fact it's actually them probably questioning their own drinking, as I found through my experience is like I was questioning my drinking all along the way.

Brittany Holley [00:24:30] You know, is this good for me? You know, but I'm having so much fun. Is this good for me? Like, what am I doing? Is this, is this who I am? Like, I mean, I think it on a very like, deep level does impact your questioning your own self and your own drinking. And I think deep down, you know, it's on, like on a.

Brittany Holley [00:24:55] It's risky, it is unhealthy, it is a poison people for, you know, it is flavored fuel. You know, it is, you know, it's hard to navigate that, you know, with people, you know, because we, you know, my quitting drinking was. That was a big question for myself. Like, how the hell am I going to fit in with the crowd now? You know, like with the tribe that I've been drinking heavily with.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] And we don't want to jump ahead, but I just. Yeah, but you acknowledge that there is peer pressure to drink and that it might be just people worrying that they're being judged. Is that what you're thinking?

Brittany Holley [00:25:36] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Okay.

Brittany Holley [00:25:37] Yeah. That there's some sort of form of judgment. And you know, I've come around to think a lot of the judgment we project out on people is actually a judgment of our own self.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] I just want all those post Mormon drinkers out there to know. I'm not judging you. Just don't ask me. Stop asking me why I don't drink. Just let me have my beverage. You have your beverage. Let's karaoke. You don't have to ask me every single week why I'm not drinking. Because I don't want to have that conversation 50,000 times. Just let me do your thing. I'm not judging you, I promise.

Brittany Holley [00:26:11] Yeah, no, and I don't pass judge. You know, I've learned, you know, like, you know, we're taught not to judge, you know, in the church. And that's a. That's a good lesson, you know, that I think we can. We can still value that. You know, that nugget of, you know, wisdom is, you know, don't cast judgment. People are living their lives, figuring it out on their own. And really, you just be present with who you are and be comfortable with who you are and your choices and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Love it.

Post-Mormon Social Culture and Drinking Patterns

Brittany Holley [00:26:38] Okay, so moving forward. So, yeah, lots of socializing with drinking, stuff like that. Lots of partying. I mean, we were. There's this, this very prominent culture of like, mommy wine culture. And like all these, you know, like, the guys go out for drinks, or if we're having a Super bowl party, everyone's drinking, or, you know, there's a kid's birthday day. We might as well supply alcohol for the parents to survive it, right? Because these kids are screaming toddlers, you know, at this point. So, you know, it became a way of coping and dealing with just like kind of the mundane of life, you know, kind of a way to check out a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Tell me if I'm wrong about this. My understanding is there's a group of people, maybe nine out of 10 that can drink just in moderation, and. And it's not a problem. And it's not really in any way unhealthy. It's just if the chamber and the Russian roulette sort of wheel falls on you or you happen to be one, where it's because I don't want people to think we're anti alcohol.

Brittany Holley [00:27:52] There's some thought out there about dopamine enhanced receptors where, I mean, alcohol releases the dopamine in the brain, right? And so they get this signal in their brain a lot faster and they feel that pleasure a lot faster, then I would say that genetically I'm probably not one of those people that just is like, you know, like, I have this addiction cycle of, like, those dopamine receptors get hit. It feels good, I crave it. Again, you know, like, it was more just like I'm socially doing this, I'm being part of the crowd, you know, on my husband's side, I would say he's probably more of the, like, you know, it's.

Brittany Holley [00:28:33] It's hard to say no to more than just one. You know, for me, I, I did have a little bit more control over, like, I didn't feel compelled unless I was, you know, drunk, you know, and like, I mean, it changes your judgment, you know, like how. How it affects you is going to be different from one person to the next. So. So there is science out there about it.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] We're not quote, anti alcohol in this episode at all.

Brittany Holley [00:29:03] No, no, I'm not,

John Dehlin [00:29:06] but I'm not,

Brittany Holley [00:29:07] you know, and I have had friends, you know, that, that use it as a tool, like, you know, to calm the brain to get out of their head so they can enjoy sex, you know, like, I mean, it's. There are lots of reasons people, you know, drink, and some of them, you know, sometimes it starts out innocently. I mean, it's a spectrum. So I mean, you just have to have it out there that it's a spectrum of how it's going to impact you and your life. You know, is it problematic? Is it too much? What is excessive drinking? You know, I didn't even know what that was, so I had no idea what the CDC even considered excessive heavy drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:29:47] And, you know, until I really started looking at my own drinking this past couple winter. So. So, yeah, so moving, moving along. You know, I think again, like, I. And for me, I don't want to be like this anti alcohol, you know, person. I'm just saying this is my journey with it and this is how I have come to where I am today. And yes, that's, you know, but I think knowledge is power, you know, Like, I had beliefs about a faith and then I had beliefs about alcohol. And I never knew I could apply the same, you know, questions or, you know, questioning of my beliefs about what, you know, the church was for me or the truth there.

Brittany Holley [00:30:28] What is alcohol doing? Does it serve me? You know, like, does it. Is it causing more problems than good, you know, those sorts of things. Like, you know, I thought I needed it to be social, you know, and to fit into the crowd. And it's like, well, that's drunk Brittany or drinking Brittany, fitting into a crowd that's not me fully conscious, fully present me, you know, being social.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Right. So, okay, so you fall into this kind of military culture. Mommy, mommy wine culture.

Brittany Holley [00:30:59] Yep. Okay, so you know, and at this point there were plenty of. You know, I remember we traveled out to Idaho for my, for Thanksgiving in 2014. And you know, we were hiding boxes wine at my in laws place, which is terrible. But, you know, it's just like we were hiding it secretive, you know, there's strained relationships, you know, in the family a little bit. So it was a way to escape and deal with the holiday, you know, and not really confront, you know, the emotions that were happening at the time. You know, feeling like a disappointment to his family that we were not raising the kids in the church.

Brittany Holley [00:31:42] You know, those sorts of things kind of were all, all there. And we met up with some friends out there who had recently left the church too, and we met them in Boise. We were staying a little outside of Boise, but we met up with them and drank and I drank until I threw up and then I drove home. I mean, it was not responsible on any level, but we were there talking about just the pain and like, you know, they had gone through a faith crisis and had left the church as well. And I mean, you know, we just, you know, it was, it was, you know, it's hard to see people going through that in their own way too, you know.

Brittany Holley [00:32:20] And so how do you deal with it? You numb yourself to it. You, you, you cope with it by numbing yourself, not confronting the pain and processing it. It's a way of stunting the processing, or at least it was for us, you know, and, and so, you know, I, I remember driving back to where we were staying, and I'm like, I can't believe I just drove like that home to, you know, where we were staying.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] But I started to take risks. It got to the point where. You started to take risks?

Brittany Holley [00:32:51] Yes, started, you know, and this wasn't like a all the time risky behavior like thing because I was like, you know, and of course I regretted it. I was like, I can't believe I did that. That's not who I am. That's not where I thought this was going, you know. And so, you know, I was like, swear it off. I'm not, I'm not never doing that again. And then, you know, like, we'd be drinking with our neighbors and I'd have to too much and my husband would have too much. And I remember, you know, feeling a little bit of resentment towards, you know, it's like, you know, if he was gonna drink excessively, you know, or if he didn't turn off his off switch, you know, with it because he couldn't because he was inebriated, you know, like, we.

Brittany Holley [00:33:31] You know, like, I had to be the responsible one, so I wasn't gonna drink as much, you know, so it became this, like, kind of like, okay, she's hungover in the morning, so he'd get up with the kids, or, like, you know, vice versa. I mean, we were taking our baby monitor to the neighbor's house to, you know, stay up late on weekends. You know, Scott was traveling during the week, so the weekends were kind of our social let loose period.

Brittany Holley [00:33:57] And so, yeah, it definitely spun out of control, you know, not every weekend, but pretty darn frequently, you know, and then there's the whole, you know, like, here in this area, business meetings for my husband. So, like, meet at the bar after work, you know, and have a couple drinks, you know, so it kind of became, like, just a part of our lives. And I didn't see it coming, you know, I didn't see it. It was slow to develop. It was slow to creep in, you know, And I. And I. I was just like, what are. What are we doing? You know, And I just felt very divided about it at times.

Brittany Holley [00:34:37] And then in 2015, I decided to go back to work, and I got my dream job as a labor and delivery nurse, and I work night shift. So night shift is hard enough in and of itself, and drinking is terrible for a sleep. There's a lot of science behind why it's awful for sleep, because some people

John Dehlin [00:34:57] are like, oh, I just need a good glass of wine to get to bed. It helps me. It makes me sleepy. They'll say, drinking makes me sleepy. So they associate good sleep with drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:35:08] Right, Right. Yes, that does happen. So, yes, initially it does physiologically, like, you know, kind of get you into that, like, I can doze off phase. But physiologically, when your body is processing, you know, the chemical, you know, and this is something I learned recently is like, alcohol in and of itself is not poison. But your body, when it processes it, makes acetyl hide, which is a toxin to your body. So I, you know, as I'm, you know, looking back, it's like, okay, so your body goes through this. You know, you feel the buzz for about 20 minutes, 30 minutes maybe, and then you, you know, start to kind of feel like you're coming down off of it, so you get another drink, you know, so you're kind of trying to stay on top of this buzz when physiologically, your body is, like, trying to process it and reach homeostasis.

Brittany Holley [00:35:59] So, you know, it's like, okay, when do we normally drink. We drink in the evening. Our body's crashing, you know, in the middle of the night when we're asleep. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night, just like. Like, I feel like crap, you know, like. And. And I already had little kids waking me up in the middle of the night, so I was just. I was tired. I was sick more often. It does not help your immune system any level. So, you know, I just.

Brittany Holley [00:36:28] As I went back to work, you know, we were living a very busy, very full life of husband traveling. I was working. We had a nanny for the kids. You know, we partied with our friends on the weekend.

Brittany Holley [00:36:43] So it just kind of became this routine, and then it all started blurring together. I wasn't getting a whole lot done on the weekends, or we weren't, because we were more involved in just being social with our friends and drinking through it. So.

Brittany Holley [00:36:58] So, yeah, I mean, we definitely, you know, for a period there, it was a lot. And so when I went back to work, I tried to tone it back, you know, you know, quite a bit because I couldn't do that to my body. It was just too exhausting.

Brittany Holley [00:37:16] But even through this, I was like, okay, I'm going to work out so I can have that glass of wine, like, justifying, you know, like, if I work out and stay healthy this way, I can have my drink, you know, or two, or whatever, you know. And this is all stuff that's happening in my own head, you know, this isn't something I'm, like, telling anybody. It's just, like all this internal process, you know, of justifying, you know, my use of it.

Brittany Holley [00:37:43] So, you know, and there were sometimes where, you know, my husband drank excessively and some hurtful things were said or done or whatever. And it's, you know, that also then started creating this anxiety, you know, within me. Like, if he went to the bar after work, well, how long was he gonna be there? Like, is he gonna come home when he said he was going to? You know, like, it was a social draw for him. It was his. His way of, you know, decompressing after work, that sort of thing. And oftentimes people feel like, I've worked hard and I deserve that. You know, I deserve that.

Brittany Holley [00:38:19] Like, kick back, you know, pop a beer, have a drink, feel that relaxation, you know, that it gives you in the beginning, you know, and so it just becomes, like, habitual, I guess. It becomes a part of your routine. And I feel like when you leave the church, you're kind of trying to Figure out what your new routine is, what your new ways of relaxing or coping or, you know, all those things. Like you're trying to figure them out because you used to have this place or system that you relied on and it's not there anymore. So.

Brittany Holley [00:38:55] Yeah, so there were, there were lots of nights of, you know, like, lots of fun. But also there was tension building. You know, the. This tension, this resentment, you know, like that, you know, some things happened, they were hurtful. Is it going to happen again? Oh, my gosh. Like, you know, every time, like we drink, yes, we have a good time, but then there, there's this, like, the highs are high, but the lows are low with it. So.

Brittany Holley [00:39:25] So in my experience, it was, you know, a little excessive. And so I tried to pull back fair amount. And then I, you know, started, you know, asking Scott. I'm like, you know, you need to check yourself, you know, like, what's, what's going on with you? You know, your drinking seems to be, you know, getting a little up there. Like, you need to pull back. Let's try like 30 days, you know, sobriety, that sort of thing. And it's like, you know, you make it like maybe five or ten days in, and it's like, oh, no, there's a reason to drink again. We're with our friends again. It was really hard socially to pull away, but, you know, so that's when

John Dehlin [00:40:05] you start trying, you see it's a problem. So you start trying to pull away or to reduce it.

Brittany Holley [00:40:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] But it ends up being hard. Really hard to pull away from.

Brittany Holley [00:40:15] Yes. Yeah. Very, very difficult. You know, I mean, working, you know, there were a few times, you know, when we were downtown drinking with our friends, our neighbors, and like, I drove home, you know, thinking I was probably the most sober person of the group, you know, but not, you know, lucky I didn't get caught. You know, I have a. I have a license, you know, for my job and a driver's license, and that would not be good, you know, and I feel very fortunate that, that never, you know, I never got a DUI or anything, but people do and people have. And, and you know, those are life changing, you know, things.

Brittany Holley [00:40:55] Those go on your record. And that's not, you know, something. I was, you know, I was starting to think, you know, I need to really start questioning my own behaviors here. I was questioning my husband's and I was questioning my own, you know, with it. And I, you know, at that point, you know, there was when I was working night shift, you know, I worked from 10:30 to 7 in morning. The. The morning initially, and that's brutal. It is brutal. But, you know, babies happen at any time of day.

Brittany Holley [00:41:28] That's my job, and I love it. So, yeah, so, I mean, I didn't go into work till 10:30 sometimes. So if my neighbors were cracking a beer at five in the afternoon, in the evening, like, it's like, yeah, I can probably have a drink or two before I go to work. And there was one shift that I remember going to work and still feeling a little buzzed. And that's a decision I had to live, you know, and then I downed a bunch of coffee so I wouldn't get that crash, you know, overnight. But, you know, I really, at that point was like, what am I doing?

Brittany Holley [00:42:02] What am I doing with my life right now? Like, this is not healthy for me. Why. Why can't I stop? You know, why can't I just say, no, I'm not going to drink? And.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] And at that point, it's not. It's not rational. It's just typical. Right? It's emotional.

Brittany Holley [00:42:21] It's emotional. It's like a sense of security. Like, if I drink, no one's gonna question me, you know, like, no one's. My friends who are drinking aren't gonna point it out, you know, or. Yeah, it was. The social part was really hard for me because I was such a shy kid. You know, it was a way for me to loosen up, to be able to, like, you know, just have more fun and that sort of thing. And I thought if I take away the drinking, then that all goes away too, you know, so. So I didn't want to feel, you know, a disconnection again, I guess, per se, from people.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] All the fun you've had and all the friendships you've had, right? That. Where that's always involved. You worry, will I ever have fun again? And will I lose all these friends?

Brittany Holley [00:43:09] Right?

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Will I lose whatever good things have come into my life?

Brittany Holley [00:43:14] Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, it had gotten to a point as well, you know, with our relationship, where a lot of anxiety and a lot of concern had started to build around drinking for us. And, you know, I pointed it out a couple times, and it was hard for my husband to stop, you know, as well. And I would just be like, Scott, like this. Something's got to change. Like everything else, you know, we've come through so much with our relationship, with our faith crisis, you know, like, we've. We've been through hell and back, you know, trying to get through this intact, you know, And I feel like this.

Brittany Holley [00:43:58] This substance has moved into our lives, and it's like taking a nice seat, and it is in control, you know, like, of our social life, of our emotions, you know, It's a way to cope. It's a way of dealing, you know, and it's like I started getting kind of frustrated with it, you know, like, but at the same time, I found it so hard to stop.

Brittany Holley [00:44:21] So, you know, I. You know, and I started bowling with a friend, and there's a big drinking culture around bowling and things like that. And so, you know, I just, you know, I had questioned my husband's drinking, and about 2018 that summer, like, I just kind of had had it with Scott's drinking because I felt like I had started to moderate. Moderate. Moderation is a tough game to play with with a substance. It's. It is an addictive substance, but it's also got a very high cultural acceptance. So it's tough to navigate that.

Brittany Holley [00:44:59] But you think, okay, I'm just gonna pull back. But oftentimes when you pull back from it and say, I'm gonna slow it down or I'm gonna do less, like, it creeps back into where it was. Like, eventually, you keep going back that direction towards however much you were drinking at most at one period of time. So it's, you know, and I, for myself, kind of turned into, like, a weekend binge drinker at that point, or when I was off work and people were being social, I was like, yeah, I'll go, You know, like, we'll go to this wine and paint party, and we'll all drink and have fun and, you know, with my co workers and, you know, different, like, social events around here where we live are like auctions for fundraising and the booze is flowing, you know, like, there's lots of drinking, and people will spend more money when they're drinking, you know, and so it's.

Brittany Holley [00:45:55] It kind of became this, like, you know, well, what are we gonna go do? You know, for fun, we're gonna go and hang out at the bar, have a drink, you know, or go out to dinner and have some drinks or, you know, if it's, you know, any sort of, like, if there's a baby shower, there's alcohol at it, you know, it's just very different, you know, from what I grew up around. But it was part of how we did things here for that period. So when I started questioning Scott's drinking and being like, look, this is out of control. This needs to stop. I want this stuff out of our lives.

Brittany Holley [00:46:33] It was a difficult conversation. It was very heated in the beginning, but I just felt like alcohol had hijacked my spouse, it had hijacked my life. You know, it's like I don't feel like I. I don't feel like I can control it, therefore, it is controlling me, you know, so.

Brittany Holley [00:46:55] So after that, we, you know, Scott reached out to a friend of ours who he had met drinking, and she happens to be a nurse as well. And she has since been through rehab and is, you know, recovering from alcohol and opiate use herself. And she runs her own coaching business now for recovery. And she gave us some resources. A book called this Naked Mind, which I highly recommend for people who are struggling with drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:47:29] And she wrote a book, this woman, Annie Grace, wrote a book, excellent book. But she also runs a podcast where people tell their stories or they have reader questions and that sort of thing, and it's pretty, pretty impactful. So we got some resources from her. And I was more focused on Scott's drinking because I felt like I was in control of mine more than he was, even though I still couldn't just quit it myself.

Brittany Holley [00:47:58] But he, you know, he got these resources with the podcast and then Recovery Elevator, as well as a podcast that's run by a man named Paul Churchill. And it's people telling their stories when it started, what their rock bottom was, you know, how they got out of it, those sorts of things. And as you know, John, like, the power of story, you know, through experience and stuff, it's very impactful. And so I started listening to these podcasts because I wanted to know what Scott was listening to, because I was more focused on. I was like, I'm fine. And at this point, I'd have really stopped drinking with my husband because I just.

Brittany Holley [00:48:40] I couldn't be around him when he was drinking. I just. There was this division, kind of this. This wedge between us that was alcohol. And, you know, it was a huge strain on our relationship for a period of time. And that was hard, knowing I had fought so hard for it post faith crisis. And now alcohol was here. And, you know, here I am again, fighting for my marriage over this substance, you know, and so we started listening to these podcasts, and I would binge listen to these podcasts, kind of like I did with, you know, my faith crisis. And I'd be like, I'm ready to stop drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:49:27] I can do this. And I listen, listen, listen. And then I'd be like, all right, I'm going to do It. And then the weekend would come and I would just fall back into drinking with, you know, my bowling buddy and, you know, not thinking too much of it.

Brittany Holley [00:49:42] And then it really created this internal battle, you know, kind of like with the church, you know, like this cognitive dissonance. Like, I know it's not good for me, it's not good for my marriage, it's not good for my relationship, you know, it's causing problems, yet I'm still participating in it, you know, and that's, that's where it had me. It had, had that control. I didn't feel like I could be social without it. I didn't feel like I could let my guard down without it. I didn't think I could be fun without it. You know, I wanted to fit in. I didn't want to be this black sheep again, you know, so.

Brittany Holley [00:50:16] So, yeah, it became problematic and, and so I struggled for about six months, months, you know, with this, like, I need to stop, but I can't. And I need to stop, but I can't. And so, you know, I'd heard many people in the podcast with this Naked mind say, you know, your book changed my life, you know, and I was like, well, how powerful could a book be? And I could not believe that. I just didn't apply the same things, you know, about questioning my own belief system about the church and faith and God. I didn't think I could do that with alcohol, but I could.

Discovering This Naked Mind and Reconsidering Alcohol

Brittany Holley [00:50:51] And so I was like, okay, I will try this book and I will order it and I will read it and I will see what happens. And I read it and it really went through a lot of the subconscious, you know, beliefs that I was holding, you know, about drinking and about alcohol and what it was.

Brittany Holley [00:51:14] And it really just laid it all out on the table for me. And I took my last drink on February 23, and from that point I have not had anything since. So, you know, it worked really well for me in debunking everything I thought alcohol was giving me. It was actually taking more than it was giving me. And therefore for me it's like, you know, with the church, it was, you know, the balance tipped and it became very real to me, you know, what example I was setting for my children regarding drinking, what I was, you know, doing to my body for my health, my mental health, you know, my well being.

Brittany Holley [00:51:54] And I shared, you know, my thoughts with, you know, Scott about it after I read it and that I was, you know, going to be sober from this point forward. And, you know, at that Point. His drinking ramped up again a little bit, and I was just like, what is going?

Brittany Holley [00:52:13] Why can't we just get this stuff out of our lives? You know, easily? It was. It was really difficult. So moving forward, you know, at another point, we, you know, kind of hit another low point in our relationship, whereas, you know, we're questioning, you know, his drinking. I'm sober now. Like, how does this work? You know, I never thought in my, you know, when we first got married that I would be dealing with something like this. This huge monster, you know, in our marriage. And, you know, it's like, do I want to be married to someone who excessively drinks? You know, like, is that good for.

Brittany Holley [00:52:51] For me, my mental health? Like, it wasn't, you know, and so it's like, something's got to change. And so, you know, we reached out to a counselor, you know, got involved with a couple, counseling to work through, you know, a lot of these things. And I'm super proud of Scott. He's, you know, been sober for more than a month now, which is huge considering the last seven years have been, you know, very much filled with drinking and using alcohol for all sorts of reasons. So.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] Wow. Congratulations, Scott.

Brittany Holley [00:53:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Can you. Can you take us through just a little bit more slowly how you went down the road of successful change? So I know that. I know that they need to get the book, and I've already pasted a link, you know, for people that want to access this book and the podcast directly. Again, the link is what it is.

Brittany Holley [00:53:53] This Naked mind dot com.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] This naked mind dot com. But if you can just give us just a sense for how what you did, that was different.

Brittany Holley [00:54:03] Right? Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot about this lately, like, ever since, you know, I started, like, over a year ago, kind of questioning my drinking, going through the process of struggling with moderation, struggling to, you know, you know, learn more about why am I doing it. Like, really questioning myself and questioning, you know, what was driving it, you know, and arming myself with some knowledge, you know, like, knowledge is power, for sure.

Brittany Holley [00:54:36] You know, I didn't know the CDC considered eight drinks a week for a woman is considered heavy drinking. I was definitely meeting criteria, you know, like, for that. And for men, it's 15 drinks. And I was like, wow, like, that's a little eye opening to me, because I thought I was actually doing pretty dang good. I was like, I'm not drunk all the time. I'm not going to work drunk. Maybe once in my life I did that. But not Drunk, but buzzed. But I've driven a couple times when I shouldn't have, but I'm not doing this on a regular basis. So I justified my drinking as, like, I'm okay in this moderation game that I'm trying to play.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] So part of it was getting educated about what. What really qualifies as problematic drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:55:23] Right? Yeah. I mean, I remember years ago when I started questioning my husband's drinking and mine, like, Google searching, you know, what is alcoholism? Like, what is excessive drinking? You know, And I started, like, trying to figure out what that looked like, you know, But I kind of was in a little bit of denial that that was me. Like, that was part of my life. And, you know, and after the church and feeling like, you know, I had really been disenfranchised by organized religion, period. And I had often associated spirituality with being religious. And so this past, you know, six, seven months since I decided to, you know, be sober, was really probably driven also by a search for spirituality again, you know, finding something, you know, to spiritually feed my soul, you know.

Brittany Holley [00:56:25] You know, how am I going to live the best life I can? You know, and there's been times, especially with the drinking, you know, or quitting drinking, and I've been like, you know, what. What if I've got just one life to live and I don't know if there's an eternity and I don't know these things anymore, you know, like, why not just drink and have a good time and, you know, do these things and. And not care, you know, like, just. Just. Just do it, you know, and.

Brittany Holley [00:56:56] And, you know, at the end of the day, it was like, I'm really lacking in my, you know, sense of purpose and. And spirituality and. And things like that. So that was also just kind of like I felt this void that needed to be filled, and alcohol was pouring down that void, but never filling it up.

Brittany Holley [00:57:18] So, you know, I went on kind of a bender for spirituality, I guess, reading a lot of Eckhart Tolle, the Untethered Book, Soul Byron, Katie's Loving what Is Embracing Brene Brown's, you know, Information.

Filling the Spiritual Void Left by Leaving Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:57:36] So you found out that you had a spiritual void from leaving Mormonism that you didn't fill with something better.

Brittany Holley [00:57:44] Correct? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] That's huge.

Brittany Holley [00:57:46] Yeah. And I know I'm like, how. How did it take me so long to realize this? But, you know, life's a journey, not a destination. And. And so in realizing this void was there, you know, I was just like, I just, you know, I need. I need something. I need Some purpose back in my life, you know, I need to understand, you know, my place in the universe again, you know, and what that means. And, you know, when I. When I left the church, I got a tattoo on my back. Not right afterwards, but a little bit afterwards. And it's birds in various forms of flight. And it says, oh, gosh, that's terrible, Brittany. I'm trying to remember what my tattoo says on my back.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] You'll have to show us. No, I'm kidding.

Brittany Holley [00:58:35] Yeah, so let it go. Just let it be. No more fears, just flying. And, you know, I flew quite a bit, you know, after leaving the church. I had this new sense of freedom. No rules, no boundaries, you know, regarding drinking or whatever. You know, just like, I felt like, okay, I get to pick up the pieces, look at them, put my life back together in whichever way form. You know, I get to reevaluate my values, my morals, you know, all those things, like, you review and, you know, keep some, toss others. And so in that, you know, flight, I guess, per se, I was just kind of like this careless, you know, like flying around, just kind of like wandering, you know, maybe 40 years in the desert.

Brittany Holley [00:59:19] I don't know, like, trying to figure it out. And, you know, a couple years ago, I was like, well, I kind of need some direction and purpose, too, you know, But I didn't really know what that looked like until I kind of realized how.

Brittany Holley [00:59:34] How much I had not been tending to the spiritual side of myself. So when I read this Naked Mind and another book called Alcoholics Explained by William Porter and started delving into Eckhart Tolle and just really starting to understand how we build our identity, how we build, you know, what the ego is in my life. You know, what all these, like, you know, like, going into the psychology of the human mind and stuff like that, there was definitely a shift that I felt in myself and call it a spiritual awakening or whatever, but it definitely felt different in addressing, you know, things I was struggling with.

Brittany Holley [01:00:19] You know, I found, you know, a lot of peace that came from making that decision for myself. You know, it's like, you know, when I first stopped drinking, you know, I mean, my parents eventually found out we drank, of course. You know, we went to a meeting once at a restaurant, and I was like, I'm gonna order a cosmo before my parents get here so I can have a drink before they see me. And they showed up early, so it's like, hi, Mom, Dad. I drink. You know.

Brittany Holley [01:00:50] I also feared my parents, you know, reacting in a way to my now stopping drinking as kind of like, well, we told you so the church told you not to, you know, like. Yeah, you know, it was just like I didn't want them. I didn't want to give them the, you know, the excitement of being right, you know, about booze or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] And that's part of why, I mean, that's, it's, it's such a temptation when you leave the church. It's like, okay, what was my identity as a Mormon? Okay. You know, no tattoos, no extra piercings, no alcohol, no drugs, you know, no extramarital sex. Okay, well, if I leave the church and I'm not going to be a Mormon anymore, then I've got to be the opposite of all those things.

Brittany Holley [01:01:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] And that includes, oh, spirituality. Can't have that because that, you know, that's. I've got trauma associated with the church. You just, you go the opposite. And that means I got to try drugs, got to drink alcohol, gotta have extramarital sex.

Brittany Holley [01:01:50] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Have spirituality. And that's, that's not a recipe necessarily for success, right?

Brittany Holley [01:01:56] No, in my experience, I will say no, that is not. But the pendulum certainly swings, you know, like, if you think about, you know, you're kind of living this one extreme, and then you're just like, then you let the pendulum go and it swings far the other way, you know, and as it swings, you know, eventually you need to find center. You know, it's, it's, you know, living the extremes is really a rough place to be. So really finding, you know, I really embrace the Dao Te Ching as a spiritual guidance source for being at peace, being at non resistance, you know, being at surrender, you know, with things as they are, you know, living, you know, my truth, you know, having integrity back in my life, feeling like the cognitive dissonance has dissipated has been really, really helpful.

Brittany Holley [01:02:56] You know, I'm not battling, I'm not spending any energy battling whether I should drink or not. You know, like, there's a lot of, like, energy and emotion and stress and anxiety and depression that, you know, all like stews in that internal battle. So, I mean, just like it did with, you know, leaving the church, you know, like these things, you, you know, there's, there's discontent, like, and I've really found that, you know, to be truly present and conscious and, you know, aware and my best version of myself, it's, it's without drinking.

Brittany Holley [01:03:36] And that's. And that's for me, you know, and I'm. And I quit for myself, you know, I didn't do it as a. I'm gonna quit. And I hope Scott quits, too. It's like, no. Like, I had to really focus on my own internal well being, spirituality, health, mental wellness, you know, just, you know, being comfortable in my own skin, you know, embracing myself for who I am, my flaws, all of it, self love, those things have been a huge player. And in really being able to feel like, you know, there's a huge shift, you know, spiritually within myself, and I feel, you know, that I can.

Brittany Holley [01:04:19] I can live my life without all this extra noise so much better now than I have in the past, you know, seven years since leaving the church. So, you know, it's. It's been. It's been huge. And I've been open with my parents about it along the way. You know, it's like, I'm not going to hide that part of my struggle anymore from my family. You know, they've been there.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Brittany, why would you want to come on Mormon Stories and talk about, you know, your alcohol abuse problem? Why in the world would you want to do that?

Brittany Holley [01:04:54] You know, I think, you know, to give people hope that, you know, there is a way out of that struggle, that you're not alone, you know, out there. I think knowing that you're not alone in the struggle, whether it's leaving the church or dealing with substance abuse or addiction or that sort of thing, you aren't alone. There are people out there, you know, who have left the church who understand, you know, the context in which, you know, the story that you lived. You can relate, you know, to people along the way. And, you know, my hope is that people, you know, will, you know, hear my story or, you know, feel a connection there and, you know, be inspired to live their best self, you know, it's possible.

Brittany Holley [01:05:44] And, you know, if you at all have questions, you know, your drinking or your faith or, you know, your spirituality or whatever, like, there are resources. There are people out there, you know, wanting to be your support system to cheer you on.

Brittany Holley [01:06:02] Definitely a huge part of, you know, dealing with drinking or leaving it is that you can't do it for anybody else, really. You have to do it for yourself, you know, and that was something I had to accept about my husband. You know, I really, like, I have this type a part of myself that wants to control and have, you know, things the way I want them and stuff like that. And I knew I wanted him to stop drinking, but really, at the end of the day, like, he needed to make that decision for himself, and I had to be okay. With that. I recognize his humanity, his own internal struggles are not a reflection of anything I've done or his intention is not to hurt me.

Brittany Holley [01:06:44] You know, he's struggling, too. You know, we all struggle with, you know, different emotions, and we cope differently. And, you know, being more open and honest and talking about those things is just something that needs to happen more. I think. I think, you know, like we were saying in the beginning, it's like, you know, when you struggle with something, why do you not reach out to the person closest to you and say, hey, you know, like, I'm really hurting right now. Please help me, or just be my shoulder to cry on, or, you know, what did you do? Or how do you deal with this? Like, you know, just opening conversation is super important.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] Okay, so it sounds like some of the things are admitting you have a problem, get educated, fill your spiritual void so that you feel spiritually full, and then talk about it, get help, find good resources for health, open up about it and kind of own it. Those are some of the things I'm hearing.

Brittany Holley [01:07:49] Yeah, definitely. And, you know, there's. There's lots of different resources out there. You know, their AA is huge.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] You know, I do know Mormons, post Mormons that have had good experiences with aa.

Brittany Holley [01:08:02] Yeah, because it has a spiritual component to it, like the higher power, God, whatever you want to call it, you know, like, it's a familiar, probably language on some level, but, you know, I think, you know, the struggle, you know, I think for most of us internally is we can hear these things, but do we believe them? Do we believe we are worthy? Do we believe we deserve happiness? Do we believe that we deserve love and acceptance, you know, and especially of your own self? And so I don't, you know, I think anything that touches on those or helps empower you to take control and control in your life and empowers you to make decisions that are the best for you, for your family, whatever.

Brittany Holley [01:08:49] Like, all those resources, whatever they are, however you come to that, you know, is really going to be very individual. But there are some amazing resources out there for support. The girl Tiffany, that pointed me towards the podcast that we listened to and I still listen to, runs like a sharing circle for a group called she Recovers.

Brittany Holley [01:09:14] And it's, you know, nice to meet other women, you know, who have different stories. None of them, you know, grew up in the Mormon Church. But, you know, we all think we're very different from each other, but we all struggle with a lot of similar things. And so, you know, I think it's important to share and continue, you know, the conversation. And I think it, you know, I don't want to be stuck in this, you know, place of, like, I'm in recovery and I'm a victim of, like, this, you know, fallout in the system or, you know, like, I don't want to take on a victim role and, you know, hold on to that.

Brittany Holley [01:09:49] I want to be able to move past it, to say, you know what? Like, I've been through this. Now what's the next step to. To move.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1188

Brittany Holley [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] We've got. This has been great, and I'm loving it. We have one listener. Jody writes, I want post Mormons to realize this is not a typical experience with alcohol. What would you say to Jody? I'm curious why Jody feels like she needs to say that first of all.

Brittany Holley [00:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] Almost like she's saying, hey, don't hesitate to try it, because a lot of people have great experiences. And I'd be curious why Jody feels the need to say that. But what would your response be to that?

Brittany Holley [00:01:04] I would just say, you know, all of our experiences are going to be different. You know, this is just my experience with it. You know, I think people can. And I know people who do, like, drink on occasion. They don't drink to excess. And, you know, and that's. That is totally, you know, fine. You know, if you are comfortable with that in your life the way that is, then great. You know, just the same thing with religion, you know, I don't put it on anybody to say, oh, you should or shouldn't believe this or that, or go to this church or that church or whatever. You shouldn't do this or that. You know. You know, like, occasionally I'll still, like, you know, smoke some marijuana. You know, like, it's, you know, that's.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Which is legal in Washington.

Brittany Holley [00:01:51] Which is legal in Washington. So, you know, but it's. It's like how, you know, if you've ever, like, questioned yourself on anything, then question it. If you're not questioning it and you don't feel like it's a problem, then it's. Then it's not for you. So that's, you know, I would say I'm glad I took that first drink because there's no way I would be here where I am today and the person that I've become.

Feeling More Whole Without Alcohol

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Okay, so do you feel like this experience is actually. And I think you've already said this, but I just want to repeat it. You're feeling more whole, more psychologically well, physically well, than you've ever felt?

Brittany Holley [00:02:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] And it was this bad experience with alcohol that helped you get to this healthier place?

Brittany Holley [00:02:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Wow. So you don't, like, regret trying alcohol?

Brittany Holley [00:02:44] No, I don't regret trying it. I do regret some choices I made, and they were bad choices, and I own that. You know, it's like, yes, I made some poor, poor decisions with drinking, and I definitely drank to excess to a point. You know, and I'm not saying everyone drinks to excess. Like, that's, that's, you know, something that, you know, that's for you to judge yourself, you know, whether you feel like you've done that or not, you know, but, you know, yes, I took risky behaviors. Yes, I learned some pretty hard lessons. I've learned a lot about my relationship with my husband, you know, going through this process, like codependency, like things I was doing not in a healthy way, in my own relationship as well.

Brittany Holley [00:03:28] So, you know, I think I've learned so many lessons along the way regarding drinking, you know, relationships, you know, friendships, you know, all these things have, like, collectively as a whole, been something that, you know, I'm going to take these lessons with me and take them forward, you know, and for me, I just feel like, yes, I'm glad I took that first drink. You know, I'm not saying don't take that first drink. You know, that's really a very personal and individual decision to make, you know, but for those who, you know, who have left the church and are finding themselves questioning it, concerned for a family member, spouse, partner, daughter, son, whatever it is, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot that goes into why people drink, you know, just beyond, you know, the faith crisis, you know, or the emotions that come with that.

Brittany Holley [00:04:27] But, you know, not everyone, you know, I know ex Mormons who drink on occasion, and that's, you know, yeah, that's. That's okay. I mean, if it works for them and they don't feel like it's problematic in their life, you know, I will say that I didn't find it problematic in the beginning, but it developed into that, you know, given my own experience and situation. And not everyone's going to have that same experience and situation. So it's very individual. Like, it's a snowball that I started off, you know, really small, and it just. It tumbled because I was living this life of not really knowing myself after this, you know, faith crisis, like, kind of muddling through, you know, life, stress, job, you know, relationship, all this stuff.

Brittany Holley [00:05:16] I just, you know, I didn't really feel like I had a good compass after, you know, a Mormon faith crisis on how I wanted to go about my life, you know, and what I wanted to have in it and what I didn't. So, you know, I was muddling through that. And some people might feel more secure in the life that they have than I felt at the time. So. And that's. That's just, you know, everyone's individual experience, so.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Love it. Yeah. The way I like to think about it is that. Okay, so Jodi writes back. I realize this is her experience. I just think sometimes people get caught up in the fears or bad stories they hear. I don't mean to offend anyone. I think alcohol can be a part of a healthy life. That's all. Yes. It's all very personal. Yeah. So thanks, Jody, for the clarification.

Brittany Holley [00:06:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] You know, it's tricky. This is how I see it. And this may be a little bit controversial, but I see. And this is. You know, there's been drinking in my family. Drinking hasn't led to anything good in my family. And I'm very happy and I have a lot at risk.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] You know, I'm a public figure. You know, we know about Brett Kavanaugh and kind of what things can happen at parties when people start drinking. I don't ever want to ever do anything that would ever come close to being misunderstood or to being abusive or to violating anyone's boundaries. As a public figure, I just can't afford to ever not be in full control, Internet and everything, and just. Cause I don't want to hurt people. So there's that. There's the fact that there's a history in my family. There's the fact that I've. In my family meaning my, you know, let's just say extended family. I've seen alcohol really wreck lives.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] You know, I'm happy for all those reasons. I don't need the calories. I don't. I don't need it to have fun. Personally, I'm very extroverted, so I don't need a social lubricant to be around people. And I like to dispel the stereotypes and I like to sort of live by example that Mormons can post. Mormons can keep the good of Mormonism. You don't have to throw out everything good in Mormonism to be a post Mormon. And frankly, I work with a lot of believers and I like to be able to tell them, yeah, I don't drink because that's something that is scary. So for all those reasons, I don't drink.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] But to respond to, you know, to respond to Jody's point, I kind of have grown to see drugs and alcohol use kind of like playing Russian roulette with a chamber that, let's just say, has a hundred empty chambers and only one chamber with a bullet in it. And that's an extreme analogy because most people don't die, Although some do.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Let's say Russian roulette with, you know, 10,000 chambers. But some will wound. You know, sometimes a bull will wound you, and sometimes it will kill you. In other words, you're introducing risk into your life there. It may not affect you at all. You may be 1000% fine.

Brittany Holley [00:08:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] You just happen to be one of those people, one in 100, one in a thousand, one in 500, where it will either damage you or wreck your life.

Brittany Holley [00:08:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] For me, I don't want to take that risk.

Brittany Holley [00:08:39] Right. And everyone has to make that risk analysis for themselves when they leave the church. You know what? You know, I never really thought, you know, like when I started questioning the church that I would go down the road of, you know, drinking at all. But I mean, I haven't, beyond marijuana, tried anything else. You know, I don't feel compelled to do that just because I'm like, you know, I have this probably irrational fear that, you know, I could have, you know, a bad reaction to something and is it worth the risk? You know, and because, you know, alcohol is a very socially, culturally accepted, you know, thing to do or substance to use, we categorize it differently than heroin or opiate, you know, opiates, other hard drugs, when in fact it kills more than all the other drugs, you know, so it's, you know, alcohol related deaths is way higher than other substances.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Yeah. Like if you were going to compare marijuana, the dangerous risks of marijuana, alcohol, it's not even close.

Brittany Holley [00:09:48] Yeah. Alcohol is not. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Catastrophically more damaging and dangerous.

Brittany Holley [00:09:53] Right. And that's not to say, you know, and again, it's like, you know, when we, when we think about it mentally in our heads, it's like was saying in the beginning, and this is something Annie Grace talks about in her book is like, you know, no one wakes up someday and says, I'm gonna be an alcoholic today. No one wakes up and says, I'm going to, you know, be a heroin addict today or a meth addict or whatever. Like these people come into it from various backgrounds, very, you know, like, you know, trauma, you know, abuse, like these things. You know, there is some sort of like ptsd, you know, that occurs from leaving the church, you know, a sense of betrayal, depression, anxiety.

Brittany Holley [00:10:35] And we fall into, you know, if we introduce, you know, substances to us, you know, along the way, sometimes it can hijack us, you know, like from really, you know, dealing with emotions and things like that. And that isn't everyone's experience, but it is a risk. I mean, it is a very real risk. And I have experienced the real risk, you know, of maybe getting caught with a dui, you know, or it wrecking my marriage, you know, and I, you know, And I was sitting there, like, trying to slam the brakes on, but it was this, you know, when I thought I had control, I really didn't, because when I tried to put the brakes on it, it was a struggle.

Brittany Holley [00:11:16] Like, the brakes should not be that hard if I don't have a problem. Right. You know, like, you know, it's, you know, and that's my experience. And. And it is. It is a risk you take. And so, you know, for me, I just, you know, living through the experience of these past, you know, six and a half years, I guess that I was actually drinking, you know, the risk just outweighed the benefits in my life,

John Dehlin [00:11:41] you know, and, yeah, that's what it comes down to.

Brittany Holley [00:11:43] And in there, you know, it's like, sit down, make a list. What is it giving me? What is it taking away? You know, I'm like, you know, I'm a nurse. Like, I should know, you know, like, this not healthy. You know, people, you know, it increases your risk of cancer. It, you know, increases, you know, the risk that you pass on these, you know, habits to your children. You don't think that you're doing it, but, you know, when I would sit there with a beer or a glass of wine, and my child is seeing me as an adult having a good time, and I say, no, this is an adult drink.

Brittany Holley [00:12:16] You know, like, they are making the association that to be an adult, to be having a good time, a drink has to be in hand, you know, like, you know, I realized, oh, my God, what have I been doing, you know, in front of my kids? Totally not intentionally, but I am sending these, like, little messages to them, you know, that this is how, you know, this is how adults behave, and this is how adults act, you know, and it's with booze in hand. And, you know, there was a point in time where it was like, well, what would we do, you know, when we were really in the throes of our drinking?

Brittany Holley [00:12:51] You know, like, would we let our kids try it before they're of legal age? You know? And my husband was like, sure, why not? As long as it's at home and controlled, you know? And I was like, what? Like, why would we do that? You know, it's not legal, you know, So, I mean, all these, like, questions, you know, started popping up in my own mind, you know, like, what message am I sending my kids? Do I want what I've been through for them? You know, Like, I don't know. Like, I really started to. To think, you know, do I want to even introduce that risk to my children, you know, like, for me, it just.

Brittany Holley [00:13:28] The answer became a no. And so it wasn't a risk I was willing to take. And I have been open to my kids, and they are 11, almost nine and six, and my daughter, who is nine, you know, I have said, you know, I don't drink because it's not good for me, you know. And, you know, I will say, like, after stopping drinking, I had a lot of anxiety about telling friends that I don't drink anymore. I mean, I'm not out there advertising it, but if they offer me something, I say no. I. I decided to, you know, stop drinking. And if they ask why, then I will tell them my story, you know, and.

Brittany Holley [00:14:02] And go into it. But, you know, it. But it did create some, you know, anxiety of like, oh, my gosh, I'm not going to have, like, my. My safety net, you know, alcohol to feel like I'm part of the crowd or that I have my social lubricant because I am more introverted or have been my husband kind of extroverted. My introvertedness over, you know, there was some nervousness about going back out into the world without that cup in hand.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Right.

Brittany Holley [00:14:33] Or bottle or whatever.

Listener Questions and Advice on Alcohol Recovery

John Dehlin [00:14:34] So we have a bunch of great comments from our listeners. I'm just gonna read a bunch and we'll talk about each one. Is that okay?

Brittany Holley [00:14:40] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] So Marie DeMarco writes, I just want to mention also that as drinking is in the Australian culture, it's used to party or during meals. Not so much as a boost for sad feelings. Here in Utah, I found alcohol drinkers to be very different. So what many are talking about is the function of the drinking. If you drink to be social, just to have a good time, that's very different than drinking to numb your feelings is, number one, is that. I mean, I think we've already said that's true. But also, that doesn't mean there's not risk. Right? There's still risk.

Brittany Holley [00:15:16] Right. Well, and I would have to say that at first, for me, it started out as a social thing. Like, yeah, like, you have a glass of wine at dinner with your friends and, you know, or we get together for a barbecue and you have a beer or two. It was very social. But, you know, and I guess this might be, you know, that spectrum or an example of the spectrum. For me, like, there was no draw to drink by myself at home, like at night, you know, like after work or if my husband was out of town or whatever. I think I maybe had a beer by myself.

Brittany Holley [00:15:46] A handful of times, you know, but for someone who may have a history of trauma is, you know, on the spectrum of probably having more enhanced dopamine receptor sites genetically or whatever, you know, or has fallen into using it as a way to cope, to relax, to deal with stress, you know, like, you know, my husband would open a beer or two at home. Like, I mean, I work night shift, so, you know, we eventually switched to 12 hour shifts. He puts the kids to bed. He says, I've worked hard today, I deserve it. I need to relax and drink, you know, and then it was like, you know, I'm feeling kind of down.

Brittany Holley [00:16:27] I need kind of that little buzz. You know, we, we. We don't always realize these little subtleties that change along the way. So, you know, and, and I think different countries probably have different cultural attitudes towards drinking. I think Western culture, you know, I mean, I think of, you know, the Super Bowl. How many beer ads do you see during the Super Bowl? Or, you know, where do you see? You know, I walk into Target and wine bottle pictures are at the bottom of my basket. You know, like they're serving wine at Target now in some places, you know, while you shop. And I'm just like, this is insanity.

Brittany Holley [00:17:05] You know, just like day drinking, you know, those sorts of things. You know, by the time you started day drinking, if you start at noon, you gotta drink every hour to keep that up into the evening, you know, and, you know, you're six or seven drinks in. You know, I never thought I'd ever have more than five drinks in a night. And I did. You know, that's not something I.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Right. So for some it's a slippery slope. For others it's not. For some it is.

Brittany Holley [00:17:30] Yeah. And I think that's just. It really is person dependent. It's history dependent, it's coping mechanism dependent. You know, it's. Yeah, there's a lot of factors that go into it, but I think more importantly, is it a problem? Is it causing relationship problems, job problems? You know, I think those things are, you know, if you've ever questioned it, open up that book and, you know, say, well, why am I questioning that? Just like we did with the church, you know.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Right.

Brittany Holley [00:17:59] You know, it's. It's something to look into.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Right.

Brittany Holley [00:18:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] Okay, let's see. Others. Some are responding to my venting session about why post Mormons always have to ask me why I don't drink. Courtney writes, I haven't experienced that at all. That seems like it's a friend thing. I hang out with people and don't drink and no one says a word. Well, we don't hang out at the same place as Courtney. Or maybe it's because I'm a public figure, people feel really invested in what I do. But anyway, Jody writes, I think people who have never been Mormon don't care if you drink or not. People don't consume alcohol for a lot of reasons. Maybe the peer pressure John is explaining comes from people's own insecurities. And that's what you thought.

Brittany Holley [00:18:46] Yeah, yeah. Insecurities definitely play a role, you know, like, you know, if we've always felt a little socially awkward and have found alcohol to take away that feeling of awkwardness, you know, it definitely, you know, alleviates that. That social anxiety, I guess, you know, and I think, I mean, at least in my, you know, experience it's been, you know, I mean, the neighbors that we drank with did not. They were not of Mormon faith origin. I guess, you know, some of them had a Christian background of sorts, but. But had since left their own Christian faith, you know, and I guess, you know, everyone's experiences is just going to be different in how people deal with you not drinking socially or you not.

Brittany Holley [00:19:39] I mean, a lot of people who know Mormonism from a distance probably are like, oh, I had this Mormon friend and they didn't drink. And, well, you left Mormonism, so now you should. Right. You know, because, you know, they just don't have the context, I guess, to really understand, you know, the variety of experiences post Mormon, you know, not many people know Mormons who've left the church. We're still a breed that's out there, you know, and if we're not vocal about it, they don't know.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Lisa writes, I have siblings who left the church and turned alcohol. It is hard for me to see in their homes, but I told myself not to judge and to accept what brings them comfort in life. But I see the same judgment as I have not tried alcohol, but I'm one of those people who want to be in control of my situation. And I find I gain more strength by feeling my feelings and understanding them more. So, Lisa, obviously we celebrate and support your decision not to drink.

Brittany Holley [00:20:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] And we want to make sure everybody understand we celebrate your decision to drink. This is not an anti drinking episode. It's just an educational episode, a vulnerable episode. Let's talk about it episode. And everybody's got to make the decision that's right for them.

Brittany Holley [00:20:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Jody writes, sipping one drink over time, having food with it, and not driving until it is metabolized. Is responsible adult drinking. Being drunk at a kid's birthday party sounds like another story.

Brittany Holley [00:21:08] Absolutely. I mean, I think there's different levels, right? I mean, there's like zero to 60. There's, you know, I mean, in my experience, it was like when we first started drinking, okay, we're gonna have, like a glass of wine at dinner. You know, that's great. You know, and it started, you know, with that again for us, it turned into something more. And that's, you know, not something that everyone experiences for sure. I will. I'll say. Yeah, it's. It's definitely not everyone's experience.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] So you've already explained this, but Courtney writes, this isn't a judgment at all. But I just don't understand how people get so drunk. I know that when I have two glasses of wine, I am done. I don't keep drinking. How do you get past that point? Is it a self control issue? I'm just trying to learn here. So she's basically saying you guys just lack self control. What's going on, Brittany?

Brittany Holley [00:22:06] Oh, yeah, well, we all lack self control on some level or another. Whether it's food, drink, whatever. Like, I don't know about, you know, me and chocolate or me and a pint of ice cream, but, you know, we all, you know, have to find what level of something works for us. I can tell you I have a bad sugar habit, you know, like, I have a sweet tooth like none other, you know, and, you know, it's.

Brittany Holley [00:22:36] It's a comforting thing, right? You know, it's like, I'm doing this because it makes me feel good, you know, and that sort of thing, you know, getting drunk was not something I ever said. I'm gonna enter this drinking session with my friends and I'm gonna get plastered. I guess there was probably maybe a few situations where it was like, oh, me and one of my neighbor girlfriends, we went down to Seattle.

Brittany Holley [00:23:01] And it wasn't an intentional, like, let's go get drunk. But the night, the social night was, we started off with some champagne at the hotel, then we went and had dinner, you know, walked downtown Seattle, went and had dinner, shared a bottle of wine there. Then we went back to the hotel and went to the bar, you know, had a couple lemon drop martinis and oh my gosh, like, I felt like shit, you know, that wasn't my intention, but it was just like, you know, when you're drinking and you're drinking, you know, and that's the social thing you're doing, and you've got all this time ahead of you, you know, like, I chug stuff. That's my tendency. I'm not a sipper

John Dehlin [00:23:46] neither. When I've drank coffee, I can drink a large coffee in like 30 seconds.

Brittany Holley [00:23:50] Oh, me too. And my heart tells me, you probably shouldn't do that. But, you know, Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like this intentional thing. And then the next morning, this was the first time I ever puked. Was like, I was definitely hungover in the morning. And, you know, for me, I just remember, like, you know, when I was coming out of the church and I didn't have a lot of friends in this new place, you know, I mean, I grew up here, but I didn't have friends here anymore. But, you know, I had this new friend and we drink together and we had this good time together, and I felt accepted and I felt loved, you know, and that all coincided together, you know, with drinking.

Brittany Holley [00:24:29] But, you know, I. You know, getting drunk was never something I was like, I'm gonna go do this. Like, I want to get drunk. It was something, you know, over time, I was like, I'm never doing that again. But, you know, maybe six months later, I would drink to excess, given the social situation or, you know, the social climate that I was in at the time.

Brittany Holley [00:24:53] But, you know, since then, you know, since I've been sober, like, I've been able to go out and have a good time with friends who are drinking. And, you know, I, you know, I make a point of it not to, you know, make it a thing to talk about. It's not like I want this to be like, you know, like, Britney's sober and look at her and, you know, like, you know, look at how great my life is. I just want to live my life fully, and that happens to be in a sober way.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] And you want to help other people,

Brittany Holley [00:25:23] and I want to help other people.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] And there are people struggling, like, for those of you who are like, I don't get it, I drink and I'm in control. I'll just tell you, I. Some of my most heartbreaking moments over the past 14 years are friends of mine, post Mormons, who have left the church and had it come close to ruining their lives. And it happens. So we gotta talk about it.

Brittany Holley [00:25:43] Yeah, and that's not everybody. And that's not to say that those people went into drinking with the intention of it becoming that for themselves. It's, you know, is it a lack of self control? I mean, the argument in alcoholism is that it's not. The alcohol literally has the control, you know, it's not a matter of willpower. There is an element of that, but it is not the entire solution to the equation, you know, So, I mean, it's, it's a player. You know, I feel like I've got a lot of self control and I really do. I mean, I'm a very disciplined person. I was disciplined through school, through my job. You know, I pride myself on my self discipline. I mean, you were alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Yeah. Mormon girl, for 30 years, you didn't have premarital sex or try alcohol. Like, I think you had some self

Brittany Holley [00:26:35] control, some self control. But, man, I sure as hell did not have control over the alcohol. When it came to me really wanting to stop, like, I mean, it took more than that. And I think that's, you know, the flip side of it. Okay, you know, like, how hard is it to stop? Stop? Can you go 30 days? Can you go 6 months? Can you go a year? You know, like, can you completely drop it cold turkey? Some people, maybe that's the case. Most people who are excess, you know, extensively into a habit of drinking, you know, people think, oh, you process it, it's out of your body.

Brittany Holley [00:27:16] Alcohol actually, you know, stays in your body up to 10 days. I did not know this. You know, so if you're drinking every other night or, you know, every four or five days, having a couple drinks, you know, it's going to take time for that to get out of your system. So you may not be feeling the buzz and the high of it, but your body is still metabolizing it. So, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, misconceptions about how alcohol actually acts on the body, you know, how it impacts your health. You know, I think again, knowledge is power and, you know, self control, yeah, that's a part of it. But it takes more than that to just overcome an addictive substance. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah. I'll read some more of these comments. Lisa writes, I know people who drink to cover their pain. In reality, it almost killed someone close to me. So that's someone saying, it definitely can be a problem. Marie writes. Lisa, that can be the case, but these people who drink too much are people who can't control their impulses, who also struggle with addiction. These people are prone to alcoholism. I think we've made that point as well. Let's see. Lisa writes, alcohol has caused generations of pain and anger in my family. History is down the line through time. I'm trying to understand the need for drinking and educate myself as to why people need it. From my perspective, it ruins families and family relationships. And that's Lisa's experience. That's frankly my experience.

Brittany Holley [00:28:48] Right. And that can be a huge deterrent for people who, you know, leave the church. And it's like, okay, this is an option to try it. But what I, given what I know, what it's done to my family, you know, So I think that can be a huge deterrent if, you know, people whose lives it has really wrecked.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Right.

Brittany Holley [00:29:06] And destroyed, or if you've lost someone, say, to a drunk driver or, you know, whatever. Like, there's a lot of reason not to, you know, at the time we left the church, it was like, well, we've been told no, no, no, our entire lives. I just had to go on my own personal journey about why that was, you know, and I wanted to figure it out for myself, you know, whether, you know, I didn't, I guess at the time I didn't really have that idea. I want to figure this out for myself. I was just like, okay, I have this freedom to experiment a little bit with life.

Brittany Holley [00:29:40] And you know, I never really experimented, you know, with anything as a youth. And so we were kind of reliving these years of, you know, a little bit of rebellious experimentation, I guess, and it spun out of control faster than we could keep up with it. So, you know, that's. But I'm, again, I'm glad that I, that I, you know, had that experience. I personally have not lost people close to me with, you know, from drinking, but I've certainly seen the impact of, on people's lives now that I've stepped

John Dehlin [00:30:14] outside of it totally. And again, I don't want people to think this is an anti alcohol episode. It's really not. But there is a famous study called the Harvard Men's Study, I think it's called, it's this longitudinal study where they studied men over many, many, many years, decades in this cohort. And my understanding is, and this is, this comes, I've read it. It's been a long time. My understanding is, you know, it's hard to sort of on a massive longitudinal study that's trying to look at overall health and well being to ever really find any variables that are really solid, problematic. And my understanding from this Harvard men's study is that one of the clear outcomes was that alcohol use was a clear, you know, negative, sort of like correlate with long term health and well being.

Brittany Holley [00:31:11] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] In the Harvard men's study. And again, that's Harvard University. And you Guys can check out. Just Google Harvard men's study. But I'm just going to read a few statistics from Harvard. Alcohol use was the seventh leading cause of death and disability worldwide in 2016. 2% of female deaths and 7% of male deaths were considered alcohol related. That's massive. For those ages 15 to 49, alcohol was the leading risk factor for death and disability worldwide. Tuberculosis, road injuries, and self harm were the top causes. So this says the risk of each of these conditions is higher if you drink enough. Okay. For older adults, cancers related to alcohol use were the top causes of death. So when we look at the escalating instances of cancer death, like you mentioned earlier, I think, Brittany, alcohol is correlated with cancer. Is that right?

Brittany Holley [00:32:11] That's correct.

Health Risks and Practical Strategies Around Drinking

John Dehlin [00:32:12] And then in general health, I think

Brittany Holley [00:32:14] 15% in women, the risk for cancer. Yeah, I'm like, that's not a risk I want either. I don't want to just live my life to be sick at the very end. You know, I want to be healthy along the way.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] And then it says, in general, health risks rose with rising amounts of alcohol use. However, some protective effect related to light drinking. Less than one drink a day was observed for heart disease and diabetes in some groups. Okay, and that's always, that's always confusing because you see these reports coming out, drink a glass of wine a day is actually good for your heart health. Right, Right.

Brittany Holley [00:32:47] I think what's important is to look at the source, you know, of these, these articles that come out, because I used to see them fly by on my Facebook feed pretty frequently, you know, you know, studies that would claim, you know, well, you know, the antioxidants of red wine, you know, but, you know, all the same time it's like, okay, so you have the antioxidants there and you just look at the one substance, they're like, oh, it's got these good antioxidants. So therefore I can drink, you know, the alcohol that then turns into acetyl hide, which is actually a poison to my body. You know, so it's like, I don't know, weigh it out, you know, is it what. At what benefit, you know, are you willing to take the associated risk?

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Right, yeah, that's good.

Brittany Holley [00:33:31] I mean, I can probably get my antioxidants from, you know, pomegranate juice and be just fine. So, you know, I think you just have to weigh it out and just make that decision for yourself. And that's what I'm a huge proponent of is, you know, do what works to for you. If it's working great. If it's not, maybe look into it.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] So, yeah.

Brittany Holley [00:33:52] But, yeah, the statistics, you know, are, again, learning and absorbing information and really learning about what is driving my own behaviors, you know, along the way, you know, really became essential. Like, I think it's good to question why you do what you do, why you believe what you believe. You know, those things are important along the spectrum of life to be continually and actively engaging in, you know, like, is this working for me? Like, you know, I feel, like, super duped by, you know, the. The allure and the. The illusion of sophistication, of, you know, class of whatever, you know, like. Like all this glamour that is surrounded by alcohol.

Brittany Holley [00:34:41] It's very, you know, it's very, very much like a moth to the flame. You know, it's. It's very attractive. And, you know, for some people, it's attractive. For some it's not. And that won't be, you know, everyone's experience. But, you know, for me, it was like, yeah, I felt, you know, a lot of feelings I wanted to feel when I drank, you know, like, I wanted to feel these things, but, you know, at the end of the day, they were just this illusion that had been created around it. And I believed the advertising, you know, they were selling me, you know, acceptance. And, you know, I've listened to so many stories where they talk about alcohol being this warm hug or a constant friend.

Brittany Holley [00:35:26] You know, alcohol doesn't judge you, you know, and it makes you feel good. So, you know, for a period. But, you know, and then another thing is, like, as your body is introduced to it, you know, it releases chemicals in your body, expecting you to drink like you normally drink. And this is how tolerance is built up. And I noticed for myself, it took a little bit more over time to really get the effect I was looking for, you know, in a social situation or to feel that buzz again. So, you know, that's something to, you know, question, too. Am I drinking more than I was?

Brittany Holley [00:36:02] You know, like, am I drinking? Am I having to drink more to get the response I'm looking for in my body? So all these things play a factor in what you should probably be questioning. And if it's not a problem, then don't question it. Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Laurie writes, there's a huge opioid problem in our country. There are many members using these. Many Mormons using these drugs, thinking they're justified due to it being originally prescribed. And I'll add parenthetically, and it's not prohibited in the word of wisdom to take Opioids. Right, right. But then begin seeking other sources to continue those drugs. It's much easier to hide this, meaning the opioids, than alcohol. You don't get asked about that in your temple recommend interview. Right. Do you take opioids or do you

Brittany Holley [00:36:53] excessively eat sugar, you know, or sugar

John Dehlin [00:36:56] or caffeine or what it calls, you know, diet cola, whatever it is.

Brittany Holley [00:37:00] Right, right, right. It's not explicitly named. Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] It's okay. Yeah. So she says it's much easier to hide this than alcohol. It's much easier to judge someone with the drink in their hand. That's a good point. There are a lot of ways people self medicate, Right.

Brittany Holley [00:37:16] Many ways. And I think, you know, when we're self medicating, I think it's important to, you know, recognize that when we're self medicating, I think deep down we know it. And there's a lot of shame and guilt probably associated along with it, you know, and those, those things need to be addressed, you know, at some point down the road, and you don't want to hit rock bottom before you address those things. And that's really when, you know, they say in a couple of these podcasts, they'll use the phrase, play the tape forward. You know, like, where is this going? You know, whether it's your night of drinking or your night out with friends, like, where.

Brittany Holley [00:37:56] Play the tape forward. What does this, what does this look like going forward? You know, if you find yourself, you know, using more, drinking more, you know, finding that you're avoiding, you know, certain situations because, you know, you either can't drink or, you know, would rather be somewhere else, you know, if you're avoiding family relationships because of it, you know, I think that's all, all, you know, these signals of like, maybe we should start looking into this a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] Right.

Brittany Holley [00:38:26] You know, I think it's, you know, it's telling, but, yep, some of us are willing to address it and some, you know, I lived in denial for a while that it was a problem, so.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] Yeah, and sometimes you have to hit rock bottom, right?

Brittany Holley [00:38:41] Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, I don't feel, you know, I think my realization that I felt a little buzzed at work was a bit of a awakening moment for myself and realizing what damage it was creating in my marriage.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] Jody writes, the moral freefall that people experience after leaving the church is dangerous, especially when we are adults, parents, and professionals. I feel like I see this a lot in post Mormon forums, and that's true. There are all these holes. We've already talked about this that develop when you leave the church. Identity, morality, spirituality, community, friendships, existential concerns. And if you don't, you know, family issues, social issues. If you don't replace the holes that are left when you leave the church, then you're going to have these big gaping holes that cause you distress. And that's why we did. Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. If any of you are going through a faith Crisis, go to MormonFaithCrisis.com We've got now 60 plus hours of free therapy.

Brittany Holley [00:39:44] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] You don't need to pay for a coach or therapist. Go to mormonfaithcrisis.com, download the episodes, and we've got, again, 60 plus hours of content that can help you avoid a lot of the pitfalls that lead to some of this behavior.

Brittany Holley [00:39:58] Yeah, I think leaving the church is very traumatic. Those family relationships can be very strained. And, you know, definitely trauma is a huge player. And I think, you know, you go through this grieving process of, like, I was grieving the life that I thought I was going to have. I was grieving, you know, this identity that I used to have. I didn't know who I was without the church in my life because it was such a part of it. So, you know, like, all those steps and stages of grieving, you know, like, definitely make you more vulnerable to, you know, things that you didn't quite see coming, you know.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] So Victoria writes, she's one of our top fans from the uk. She writes, Brittany is very courageous for talking about this. So thank you. So Victoria's saying, thank you, Brittany.

Brittany Holley [00:40:55] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Lisa writes. Yeah, Lisa writes. I think if the church, the Mormon Church, was a place where people could be open and honest and truly talk about issues we all face, there would be more ways known of how to cope or to know you're not alone. And that's probably true. Just across society. Anything that's stigmatized and looked down upon, who we don't talk about.

Brittany Holley [00:41:18] Right, Right. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I would say, you know, definitely heavy drinking or excessive drinking or being an alcoholic or having mental health issues, you know, you know, being a marginalized, you know, group of people, you know, all those things are, you know, they're difficult.

Brittany Holley [00:41:40] So definitely, you know, being open to talking about that, having conversations about that stuff, connecting with people. We all want to feel connected. You know, I really wish there had been a space, you know, for me and the church to be able to view my concerns and view my, you know, struggles in an open and accepting way. But I just never found it. Like, I felt. I found that I was an outsider. I felt like I was this outlier person who didn't belong anymore and that I was a threat, you know, to the collective belief system or ideal, you know, environment that they were trying to foster and create, especially working with the youth, you know, like, I was this huge threat that was questioning the modesty culture, you know, like all these, you know, women's place in the church, you know, and so, you know, I was definitely, you know, rejected on those.

Brittany Holley [00:42:41] On those levels. And there was no safe space for me to talk about it except in, you know, Mormon stories, Facebook groups, or other support groups and stuff like that, you know, and mental health, you know, is such a stigmatized area. Addiction is very stigmatized, you know, But I think, you know, the more we open up and talk about these, you know, things that are happening that, you know, are harder to talk about because it does create vulnerability. It does create a sense of, like, oh, my gosh, what are people gonna think of me? You have. You're opening yourself to judgment and criticism and that sort of thing.

Brittany Holley [00:43:20] And, you know, I just learned through the years, you know, what? I just had to stop caring what people thought of me. I had to be good with myself, you know, and I do open up and talk to people about my experience, you know, leaving the church. I talk to co workers about it. We talk about it openly and freely, not in a judgmental way, but as a. We're all in this life fumbling around in this human experience, and it's all going to be very different from each other. But, you know, the fact that we even talked about it and brings us closer together, you know, our struggles, you know, when you show vulnerability, you know, which I've tried to practice more, have actually brought me really amazing close relationships with people, and I really enjoy that.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] So I often. I totally agree. I often like to say the silence the killer. Right.

Brittany Holley [00:44:16] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] It really is our inability to talk about hard stuff that enables abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, depression, mental health, suicide, alcoholism, addiction, you know, pick your thing. Right, right. If we just could get better about being vulnerable and talking openly about things that would. That would help. That would be a better place so many ways.

Brittany Holley [00:44:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Cheryl. We love Cheryl Robison. She writes. This is such a good podcast episode, John. I've seen what she is saying happen with. So many Mormons aren't prepared or educated about alcohol. Very courageous of Brittany sharing her story, and she is so wise. What do you think about that?

Brittany Holley [00:44:57] Wow. Thank you I hope I've gained some nuggets of wisdom along the way and I'm glad that they're seen as such. It's very humbling to be called wise. I just am a person experiencing life and trying to roll with it.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] So just take it. You're wise.

Brittany Holley [00:45:19] Just take it. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] Victoria writes, I'm with you, John. I don't drink alcohol either, and I'm very happy without it. I used to occasionally drink before I joined the church and stopped before I even investigated the church. I still haven't drank it since I left and I'm not interested in alcohol. I'm totally fine with other people drinking. It's just not for me. Thank you for sharing that, Victoria. And we have several listeners that write, I love alcohol. I drink it occasionally. I don't drink to excess. It works for me. I really love it, blah, blah, blah. And we celebrate you guys, right?

Brittany Holley [00:45:52] Yep, yep. Like I said, I mean, I enjoyed it occasionally for a short period of time before, you know, I went on my own path, you know, and everyone's got their own. So I celebrate those who feel like it, you know, enhances, you know, something in their life. And that's, that's totally great.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] So this is sort of bizarre. One of my former missionary companions from Guatemala is writing in Jorge Itstep, Elder Itztep. He writes, I really appreciate Brittany for sharing her story. I identify with her story. Drinking can be fun at first, first and for most people it will stay like that. But for others, it can be the beginning of something painful. Alcohol can bring out some ugly sides of people. I had my first alcohol in my late 20s and it was something fun for a while, but later on, in my 40s, it became a problem. I had a DUI two years ago and it was very expensive and painful in many ways.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] I'm still struggling with it, but I'm at a point where I realize it's a problem for me. Good job, Jorge. Elder Yitshap I think most non religious people experience this in their early twenties and then realize that it's not for them and move on to live a good life. But for some people who experienced this in their 40s, it's a different story. Bottom line is if you don't need it, don't even try it, whether for religious reasons or not. Wow. Thank you, Elder Itzep.

Brittany Holley [00:47:15] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Powerful.

Brittany Holley [00:47:17] That is powerful. And you know, you know, I also just want to tell him, you know, there, there is hope out there. There are resources. Again, I found this Naked Mind to be a life changing book for me and her podcasts and some other podcasts out there. Recovery Elevator, you know, just there. There are so, so many people out there in this, like, sober movement that is starting to brew, you know, that I think it's, you know, everyone's out there trying to live their best life, and sometimes we think we're living our best life and. And then, you know, some things happen that bring some of the more difficult and harder darker parts of ourselves that maybe make us realize that a change needs to happen.

Brittany Holley [00:48:03] And. And so, you know, take that first step, you know, you know, take that first day, don't drink or, you know, whatever it is, you know, there's a thousand day ones for some people, you know, going forward, and that's okay, you know, like, just being aware and conscious of, you know, what sort of path you want to be on with it, you know, is a place to start. So that's very awesome of him to share that experience.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Nina writes something that I hear a lot. You know, you always hear this thing about, like, oh, in Italian culture, kids are taught responsible drinking from very young age, and then they don't. They have a lower instances of alcoholism in places like Italy, where they drink a lot of wine just because they're taught from a young age, moderation. But Neenan writes, we need to be willing to teach our kids about moderation and be able to drink responsibly. I grew up with wine in our dinner table. We weren't allowed to have a glass until we were 16, and then only one with dinner. We had the constant examples of being responsible, of responsible drinking. Is there something to that, Brittany, you think?

Brittany Holley [00:49:12] I think, you know, there, there definitely is. I've heard that same thing for the German culture as well. You know, I think, you know, they say drink responsibly, you know, what does that look like? You know, what does that mean? And I think it might have different meaning for different people and different cultures for sure. So, you know, I'm not here to say that one culture has it right or wrong or whatever. Again, I think, you know, I think you just have to ask yourself questions, you know, like, is this working for me? Do I feel like it's a problem? So, you know, and for some people, they may never have to ask that question because of the example that they've been shown their whole life about how to use it responsibly according to that culture.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] So, and I'm, And I'm sure there is alcoholism in Germany. In Italy, you know.

Brittany Holley [00:50:02] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] We don't want to get too romantic about any culture.

Brittany Holley [00:50:07] Right, right, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:09] Courtney Hill Edwards writes, alcohol damages your gut microbiome. We love you, Courtney. So we're glad that you shared with

Brittany Holley [00:50:16] us that gut health is a big thing. So, you know, and it deprives you. Excessive drinking will deprive you of essential vitamins and those sorts of things, too. So I think, you know, whatever decisions you need to make that make you the healthiest person you can be, then make those decisions.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Marie writes, too much sugar isn't good for your health either. Absolutely.

Brittany Holley [00:50:38] Absolutely not. That's probably the one that we get away with the most, you know, in this country. So.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Yeah. And then Nina writes, nothing is wrong with being thoughtful about personal health and wellness. It's about so much more than alcohol. You may not drink, but choose to drink large amounts of Dr. Pepper and Monster drinks, maybe eat cheeseburgers every day. Don't trade one unhealthy thing for another.

Brittany Holley [00:51:01] Yeah, there is that whole, like, there's a term for it where you transpose one addiction into another. Forget the name of the term because I'm really bad.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Conversion. I'm guessing it's conversion.

Brittany Holley [00:51:13] Yeah. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Or at least that's the psychological term.

Brittany Holley [00:51:17] Right, Right. So you turn one addiction to another. So whether it's alcohol to sugar or, you know, excessive eating to excessive sex, you know, or whatever, you know, whatever brings the body pleasure, like, we're going to seek those things out. So I think, you know, just, you know, moderation in all things, healthy balance in all things. You know, mind, spirit, emotion. All those things are just important to be aware of when we're doing anything that we think might be accepted. Excessive, it can cross over to, you know, excessive exercise is a thing, too. You know, get those endorphins from exercise and. And that can be, you know, you can be seeking out that runner's high every time you go running, you know, and that's not a bad thing.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Excessive work, excessive.

Brittany Holley [00:52:03] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Being a worker, ex Mormonism, excessive.

Brittany Holley [00:52:07] I mean, my husband was definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] What about Scott? What were you saying about Scott?

Brittany Holley [00:52:14] He was a workaholic before we left the church. You know, he worked crazy hours and was just always trying to, you know, work super hard, prove his, you know, ability and worth and, you know, and we all do that. You know, we all work hard. I mean, I guess, you know, some of us are lazier than others. Who knows? But, you know, I definitely am a doer. I like to work hard and, you know, that definitely was part of who I was, you know, and still am. But I've chilled out a little bit.

Closing Reflections and Final Words of Wisdom

John Dehlin [00:52:41] Is Scott still doing the canoeing, rowboating kind of company?

Brittany Holley [00:52:45] Yeah. Kayak.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Kayak, yes. What a great. Plug that company. Let's plug it.

Brittany Holley [00:52:50] Oh, Eddie Line. Eddyline Kayaks. Yes. We bought the company a couple years ago, and it's doing amazing.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] And how do you spell it?

Brittany Holley [00:52:59] E, D, D, Y, L, I, n, e.eddyline.com. yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] All right, we got to plug Eddie Line because that's a healthy. That's a healthy sport.

Brittany Holley [00:53:08] It is absolutely healthy. And we've really, really enjoyed, you know, getting outdoors, you know, replacing, you know, our social activities of drinking and etc. With being outside kayak camping with our kids. It's been amazing. So definitely a healthy, almost spiritual, you know, when you're out on the water in a quiet place, you know, just hearing the water lap up against the rocks or the beach, you see sea life, you know, you're connecting with, you know, the planet Earth, you know, the elements. It's. It's a beautiful experience. So it's definitely been a huge part of, kind of our journey, you know, out of, you know, those very first years of, you know, just kind of wandering around, trying to figure out life, you know, and doing it maybe not in the most healthy ways, you know, and we're turning that into something, you know, as filling those voids, I guess, per se.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Yeah, I love it.

Brittany Holley [00:54:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] Well, Brittany, I just want to thank you and thank Scott, you know, vicariously, for your willingness to be vulnerable and tell your stories. So powerful. So I'm sure it's healthy for you, but it's healthy for us, and I know it's going to save lives and help people. Is there any final words of wisdom, you know, you want to give, any truths or testimony, secular, whatever, that you want to share before we end?

Brittany Holley [00:54:42] I would just, you know, and this is something I said at the end of podcast I did with Annie. Grace, with this naked mind, was just, you know, be the best version of yourself. You know, don't. Don't put out there, you know, your happiness. Don't make everything condition your happiness conditional on other things out there, whether it's booze, you know, sex, you know, social, you know, like, placing your happiness outside of yourself doesn't get you very far. You'll always find your. You're. You're still seeking and seeking.

Brittany Holley [00:55:20] I would say don't be something you're not. You know, don't do things because you think you need to. To fit in. Just be yourself and enjoy, you know, self discovery along the way. You know, there's a lot of amazingness that happens in exiting, you know, the church and discovering the world in a new way. And sometimes that means we experiment along the way. But I think definitely, you know, be true to yourself. Be true to who you are. And if you're not sure who you are, you know, it's.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Figure it out. That's one of the things.

Brittany Holley [00:56:00] And figure out your purpose. Figure out, you know, what, what's driving you. And if you feel like you've lost spirituality, there's a lot of. A lot of great resources out there to find it again. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Secular Buddhism podcast, Eckhart Tolle.

Brittany Holley [00:56:15] I love Eckhart. Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Yeah.

Brittany Holley [00:56:18] Yeah. The Dao Te Ching is beautiful. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's amazing. And Byron Katie's book called Loving what Is really made a big impact on me as well. So there's a lot of great, great stuff out there to kind of rediscover, you know, your. Your life purpose, where you fit in the world. But yeah, live. Live your life fully with integrity and live your truth.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] I love it. All right. Brittany. Brittany, Holley. Scott. Holley, you guys are awesome. We love you guys.

Brittany Holley [00:56:55] Love you too, John. Family. I hope so. I was in Utah this summer, but I was jam packed. I know too many people there. So we'll definitely try to make it up your way.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Maybe I'll come up to Seattle soon.

Brittany Holley [00:57:06] Well, let us know if you're around because we'd love to meet up.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] Thank you. Thank you so much, Brittany. Thanks to all our listeners. Mormonstories.org if you are a donator. Thank you. If you want to support this programming, please go to MormonStories.org and become a monthly donor. That's how we make this happen. We're a nonprofit and we promise to use any donations for the cause. Please share this episode if you know anyone who's struggling with alcohol use, who's thinking about trying alcohol, who's in the middle of it, please share this episode wherever you can, far and wide. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. Please get the word out. Again, there's several resources that we've mentioned, but the naked mind. Right?

Brittany Holley [00:57:54] Yeah, this naked mind. And I will just put this out there. You know, along the way, I've found that paying it forward, you know, helping, you know, people helped me with my exit of the church. You know, I'm happy to be there as a supporter.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] How do people get ahold of you, Brittany?

Brittany Holley [00:58:11] You can, you can message me, email me. B R I T T H O L L E Y mail dot com.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] So Britt Holley with two t's, right. H O L L E Y ma Yep.

Brittany Holley [00:58:24] Or I'm on Facebook. So, Brittany Wixom, Holley, if you want to get a hold of me or personal, message me. So I'm always happy to answer questions or just be someone to listen. You know, I, I feel that, you know, I benefited so much from, you know, the ex Mormon community or the faith transition community leaving that. And I've benefited from, you know, people who are further ahead of me in recovery from alcohol. So, you know, I think it's, you know, a part of the healing process is to share and connect. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:03] All right, Brittany, thanks so much. You're awesome.

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