Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1698

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is October 11, 2022, and today we have in store for you what I think is going to be a really important and valuable episode. I am here joined by my wonderful, brilliant, wise partner, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi. Hey.

Louisa Killian [00:00:20] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:21] I'm excited today.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Yeah, me too. So, always so glad to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:25] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] And we are here today to interview Louisa Killian. Hey, Louisa. Welcome.

Louisa Killian [00:00:30] Hello. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] Just to give everyone kind of the brief introduction Louisa has been interviewed on was a Mormonism Live or Radio Free Mormon Mormonism Live. Yeah. And we love Bill Real and Ready for Mormon. But there are so many really valuable and interesting things about today's story if there were kind of going to be a headline. Louisa was a dance professor, adjunct professor at Brigham Young University, Provo, and during that time started to have challenges or struggles with her testimony. And so because that sort of scenario is now in the news with BYU tightening its rules around temple recommends and worthiness and its faculty, along with the church recently asking that the priest penitent privilege for BYU professors be eliminated while they are still preserving it for sexual abuse victims.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] For all those reasons, this topic of losing your faith at byu, especially as a professor, is really timely and something that we haven't covered a ton. We've covered it at BYU Idaho a little bit with Ryan and Holly Nielsen, I believe. And maybe we've covered it before, but it's in the news again, so I'm excited about that. We're also going to be talking about marrying really early and young within Mormonism and the challenges that can accompany that and early divorce, I guess as well. And then of course, today's episode is kind of Thrive themed. So we've been experimenting with this, this Thrive series with Margi.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] And today is certainly going to be thrive flavored, if not a continuation of the Thrive series, because there's going to be a, a heavier emphasis, kind of a lesser emphasis on the deep early story of Luis's experience. But we're going to have a more heavy emphasis on the back end of the reconstruction piece and ways that she rebuilt after losing her job at byu. I don't mind saying that after a divorce and, and kind of rebuilding a life maybe with a new partner. And then what about, you know, life after with career or motherhood or any of that sort of stuff? So Margi is here just being a great co host, but also to help with one of the things that is her expertise which is reconstruction. Anything you want to add to that, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:50] No, I think you did great.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Ready to dive in?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:53] Yeah, let's start.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Louisa, anything about the introduction that you want to correct or add to before we start? Any disclaimers? Sometimes people like to talk about why they're doing the interview or why they're not doing the interview. Anything you want to say before we jump in?

Louisa Killian [00:03:08] I think that was great. There were some spoils and spoilers in there. I think. I just want to share my experience. And if anyone who I mentioned within this interview happens to maybe just be a little bit worried that I just don't want to hurt anybody is my thing. So everything I say is out of good faith. This is all from my experience, which means that some of it might not be accurate because it's my interpretation of my life. But I really want to share this in order to help other people. Especially I will say the main reason is students at BYU at this time, but also anyone who may have married young and have similar experiences to me, I just want to give back. So this is not in any kind of animosity towards the church, towards people?

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah. Yeah. And in addition. That's beautiful. And in addition to BYU students, just this past week we. We heard of another BYU faculty member who resigned from BYU and has switched over to Utah Valley University. So I think it's for faculty, too, because I am certain that between all the different BYUs and CES and other places, there are literally hundreds of BYU faculty who don't believe anymore or who are unorthodox believers and who are listeners and viewers to Mormon stories. Maybe your story will help them as well.

Louisa Killian [00:04:38] That is true. And there's also a lot of faculty who don't know what happens when they lose their faith. And I think it's really important to bring transparency to how that system works, even though they've been changing things even now as I speak. But it's true. But I just know that a lot of people say, well, you chose to work there. To me, the students are more. More vulnerable. But absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] And the professor I'm talking about was actually a professor of mine when I was at BYU a long, long time ago. His name's Chad Emmett. He was a geography professor and just. He just came out as having left BYU and joined uvu. So shout out to Chad, Emmett. We'll include Chad's the story in the Trib and maybe his. A blog post from Chad. But shout out to Chad and check out Chad's story as well. All right. All right, Louisa, so without any further ado, give us like, the high level couple minutes of like your kind of your. Your early Mormon story in a nutshell.

Louisa's Early Life and Utah Upbringing

Louisa Killian [00:05:38] Sure. I was born in Provo in Orem, Utah. My parents, my dad was from Kentucky and my mom was from Texas. So in that way I felt a little unorthodox because I wasn't in the Utah bubble and I was proud of that. But they met at BYU and then had me, I think, a year later after marrying. So pretty soon. And then we moved to West Virginia, Indiana and Maryland within my younger formative years. And then when I was in second grade, we ended up in Rexburg, Idaho. Idaho, which I know has been referred to the Saudi Arabia. Arabia of Mormonism, according to you. And. Yeah, so that's kind of where I started.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Okay, so your Mormon story really starts to begin in Rexburg.

Louisa Killian [00:06:30] Yes, I would say. I mean, I have memories of living in West Virginia when I was younger, but really it. Yeah, it starts in Rexburg, Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] So big family, Small family.

Louisa Killian [00:06:42] Big family. Six kids. I'm the oldest of six children. Okay, so it is four sisters and two brothers.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Okay. And I imagine you were called on to, to help with the raising of your younger siblings by your, by your mom and by your parents.

Louisa Killian [00:07:01] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Margi can relate to that a little bit. Margi is the second oldest of six, but the oldest daughter of six, so.

Louisa Killian [00:07:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] And are you vibing Margi?

Louisa Killian [00:07:10] Yeah, and I definitely took that role head on. I don't know if Margi did, but I was born a leader, I think, very in charge and stubborn and used to taking care of people. So yeah, yeah, I embraced that role.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Okay, so like, between your childhood and adolescence, any important things about your Mormon story? I'm going to assume your, you know, family evening or scripture study or family prayer and regular church attendance and kind of no alcohol and to be a tea and tobacco and swearing and just the typical Mormon stuff. Anything you want to say about your Mormon story that might be important or unique up before we jump to adolescence?

Louisa Killian [00:07:52] Yeah, so I was really proud of my dad. I. I really loved the fact that he. I believed he was sort of converted to the gospel when he was 16. He had an abusive childhood and he chose to cling to the church as a way to get out of that.

Louisa Killian [00:08:12] And he wanted to be a better father and not have anger issues. And so I remember being really proud of his testimony and proud of who he was. And I felt like we were very orthodox in certain ways where we definitely tried to do family Home evening. And there were, like, you know, discussions about whether playing cards were okay of those funny Mormon stereotypes that come out. So we were ones who followed the rules. But we also.

Louisa Killian [00:08:42] I took pride in the fact that my dad was from Kentucky. It was a little bit different. My mom was from Texas. We had artwork around the house. We were connoisseurs of literature. My dad loved Steinbeck books and Jane Austen, and I felt like that fought against gender stereotypes.

Louisa Killian [00:09:01] For me, I saw him as somebody who respected both. Well, respected my mother as an equal partner. And so I sort of grew up in this scene of really being devout, but being devout in my mind, all the right places, I guess. We had artwork on our walls. We had one that, you know, was an Egyptian hieroglyph that had a woman's breast. And like, to me, that was, oh, that's not what Mormons do, because we don't put that.

Louisa Killian [00:09:33] But so we had an artistic flair to our childhood and a critical thinking flair, which I really appreciated. And I really respected my parents testimonies in that way. And I always resisted being a part of Mormon culture, whatever that meant to me growing up. But I really felt this sense of, like, oh, there's this judgmental Mormon scene, or the scene where if you get too orthodox in certain ways, then you miss the point of things. And I was always sensitive. I always wanted to be different, I guess, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Yeah, it does. Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:10:10] Yeah.

Mormonism's Role in Adolescence and Teenage Years

John Dehlin [00:10:11] So as you're entering adolescence, what are the important elements of Mormonism that kind of impact your middle school or high school years?

Louisa Killian [00:10:22] I would say obedience comes to mind both as something that I really tried hard to do. In Rexburg, it was easy to be a member of the church. Everybody was a member of the church there pretty much. So my values weren't as challenged as they could have been.

Louisa Killian [00:10:39] It was just in the air. So I really wanted to be obedient and do the right thing. I remember that. But I also felt myself having friction against being forced to do things. So I was a very independent girl and at a young age could sense the difference in gender roles and felt like I was strong and I wanted a job and I wanted to do things that the boys were doing but that I wasn't allowed to. So I have memories of, like, young women's leaders, you know, like, hugging me and saying, like, okay, you're gonna come to Mutual. Right. And that made me not want to go to Mutual.

Louisa Killian [00:11:16] So I had this slightly rebellious side where I really wanted to do my own thing, but I also wanted to Be obedient and do what was right. I had a boyfriend when I was 16, so that's like a good example where. Oh, you're not supposed to date until you're 16. Seriously. So I didn't date until I was 16, but I had a boyfriend which again was like, oh, no, you're supposed to group date at 16.

Louisa Killian [00:11:41] But I'm like, no, I'm going to have a boyfriend. So it was like, I guess that kind of summarizes it a little bit. Where I was really concerned with being obedience and having my parents be proud of me. But of course, testing boundaries.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:11:54] And. And I think the big thing is going against things that I felt were in just like you're trying to make me go to mutual. That's not the point. I should want to go. I was really concerned with the heart of things versus the letter of the law.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Got it.

Louisa Killian [00:12:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Okay. Were you into dance in high school and before?

Louisa Killian [00:12:14] Yes. So I did. I was a drummer, a dancer and a writer. I had like a foot in all those camps. I did drumming a lot. I was in a few rock bands and drumline and concert band, those sorts of things. And then I took dance once a week and I would. I danced all as I was younger, non competitively. And I loved that. And then I also was a pretty good writer. Yeah. And I love to write.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] What are your three favorite bands to drum to in middle school or high school?

Louisa Killian [00:12:46] Oh, in middle school. Because I was like, I know the ones I want to like. If I could be Neil Pert, that would be ridiculous.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] That's the right answer.

Louisa Killian [00:12:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] No, I mean, he's my favorite drummer.

Louisa Killian [00:12:55] Can't beat him. Rush. It's ridiculous. But at the time, right. It's like the 90s, so I was like Travis Barker, like Green Day, you know, you've got, you've got those sort of drummers. What else? I also though, was jazz influenced. Our family was very into jazz, which again, kind of separated us from a little bit from the Idaho rural crowd. I was like, I hate country. Right. I was standing on that and that front, which was funny. But no, we liked jazz. So I liked some jazz drummers. I would look back to like Buddy Rich, like the classic jazz drummers, that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:13:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:29] I have a question too, just about the dance that you. Was there a type of dance that you naturally gravitated to?

Louisa Killian [00:13:38] Yes. So I say non competitive because to me, my dance training was super healthy. Not that competitive dancing can't be healthy, but there is a certain aspect of competition that can sometimes have. Affect. Bad body images. Sorry, bad body images of yourself. And it can be. It can be tough to be judged on your body at a young age. So I always valued that. I took dance that was jazz and lyrical based, and it was taught by a professor who knew kinesiology, who knew the body. So I was drawn to floor work. I was drawn to moving on the floor using my upper body. I had a lot of upper body strength for a woman, for a girl. So I loved going upside down and being able to create new movements. Ballet was my least favorite, if that gives any indication of the type of personality.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:30] Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing that. How about writing? How did your love of writing develop? And then where. I mean, would you write on your own? Did you write stories? Did you. How did you discover your love of writing? And then how, like, where in your life was there a space for it?

Love of Writing, Dance, and Creative Identity

Louisa Killian [00:14:49] Yeah, I. I was read to from a young age, so my parents would read to me. And we all grew up, all of our siblings, really, really good at writing. It was funny. One of my brothers actually got in trouble from his teacher who thought he had cheated because he was so fluent as a writer.

Louisa Killian [00:15:13] I remember I really loved prompts. And I found out later that that's what I loved with English was prompts. So if a teacher would give us a creative writing prompt, I always knew how to spin it. So that was interesting. Or I love to think outside the box. So I found places at school or if people gave me different prompts to write at. I also won an essay contest, a national essay contest, and got to go to England with my dad to meet J.K. rowling.

Louisa Killian [00:15:43] Yeah. The prompt was like, if you could have a magical power, what would you have? And I wrote that I didn't want a magical power because I wanted to face life's challenges head on. Could be slightly Mormon, but. Yeah. So I. I really loved people giving me prompts or ideas and then kind of shifting or thinking outside the box of how to approach a topic.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:09] Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Okay, let's see. Your. Your dad ended up having some health problems. When is the. Is this the time to maybe talk about that? Kind of chronologically?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:23] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:16:23] Because I was 15.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Okay, maybe let's. Maybe let's jump there.

Louisa Killian [00:16:28] Yes. So my dad was diagnosed with colon cancer and a brain tumor, and that was in January of 2005 was when he was diagnosed. And then he passed away in November of 2006.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] And he was how old?

Louisa Killian [00:16:45] He was 41.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] That's young.

Louisa Killian [00:16:47] Yeah. So it Was before they had tested him. I believe he started having headaches and went in and got checked out and it was colon cancer that had spread to tumor.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:56] Wow.

Louisa Killian [00:16:57] Yeah. So I was 15 and there were five younger siblings and it was fairly unexpected. It was within a year that he passed away and that was really hard. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] How does a, how does a, a wife with six kids.

Louisa Killian [00:17:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Who is probably stay at home mom. How does she and the. In the kids rebound and survive after something? Especially in a more patriarchal structure where the, the man was the primary provider. How do you even do that? How does that work?

Louisa Killian [00:17:34] Good question. Yeah. Luckily my mom finished her degree. I always grew up believing and being taught that, you know, a woman should finish her degree. Partly if because the man lost a job, you have something to back it up. But my mom was always taught that, yeah, you need to get an education.

Louisa Killian [00:17:54] So she was lucky in that respect that she had a degree to fall back on. She taught voice, vocal instruction, basically. I mean, you don't really recover. I mean, I think Mormons and LDS people and maybe even western society, we like to say, how do you get over it? You don't get over it, I don't think.

Louisa Killian [00:18:15] But what helped her was the community of Mormonism. So because we had such a close knit ward, our whole neighborhood, we knew, almost all our neighbors, they all rallied together and took care of us and she was supported and somehow you just make it work. I know that my mom did the absolute best that she could and I hope that she doesn't regret anything because she was dealing with the loss of her husband and having to take care of six kids and I don't know how anyone could function.

Louisa Killian [00:18:55] I remember, you know, seeing her cry and not being able to help her, it was, it was really tough. But I mean that was one of the strengths of where we were in Rexburg, Idaho. We were very taken care of by the ward and somehow she, she made it through at least the darkest times.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] So she got a full time job.

Louisa Killian [00:19:22] I honestly, I don't remember. I know we had some assistant from assistance from the church, their food storage. I, I don't know if she was able to work full time. It's all a little bit of a blur based on what I was doing. But I know that she did teach voice at BYU Idaho, which was formerly Rick's College and also had worked for the school district as a choir director.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] So something between part time and full time. Yeah, you guys were able to survive with the support of the church, which to the church's credit. Sometimes the church can shine in that way.

Louisa Killian [00:20:00] Yeah. And life insurance, you know, luckily we had an uncle who came and helped with finances.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:20:07] Yeah.

Father's Death and Its Spiritual Impact

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:08] I have a question around that. So that's kind of. Is that your first experience with grief and loss? I mean, clearly that magnitude. Right. Being a parent. So at 15, do you have memories of what that looked like for you?

Louisa Killian [00:20:27] Yes, I would say this is my first instance with death, grief and loss. I felt like, loss for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:37] Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:20:37] Loss for sure. Like I had felt grief at a younger. At younger ages. My dad and I butted heads a lot. I was a pretty headstrong child and reminded me of him. And. And because he had come from an abusive background, he was really trying to be a good father. And I really appreciated that. And he ended so many cycles of abuse within his family.

Louisa Killian [00:21:03] But we had some struggles when I was younger, growing up and butting heads. And I was the child where the parents learned a lot. So I would say there was a little bit of trauma in that sense, but this was definitely where death came into the picture. And I just remember my instinct was to carry other people, turn off emotions.

Louisa Killian [00:21:30] I would have moments where I would basically build up emotions until it all came out in one big pot. But I would be strong. And I remember getting mad sometimes when Relief Society sisters would come over and want to clean the house because they say, no, we're fine. Leave us alone. So I put up barriers of being strong, taking care of my siblings when my mom couldn't. And I just remember carrying a lot of weight. And my dad, I think it at one point told me to take care of your mother.

Louisa Killian [00:22:02] And so I just carried people. That's kind of how I. How I dealt with it. I think I was. I remember seeing my dad pass away in our home right after he passed away. He was upstairs and they pulled me upstairs to come see him.

Louisa Killian [00:22:20] So I saw death at a very young age. And how I coped was to work. I remember going to school the next day. I'm like, I'm gonna go to school the next day. I didn't last. I had to call and have somebody come pick me up. But I just wanted to prove that I could handle it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] So when you combine and thanks for sharing something so personal and. And difficult. When you. When you combine death of a father that. Who you loved with a high demand religion and. Which encourages obedience and that has kind of a clear path for young women. And then whatever family or cultural dynamics that played. What did all that, what type of trajectory or path did all of that set you on? Once you're 16, 17, being raised Mormon, what. What was the path that emerged for you? Especially as you mentioned obedience as a theme, and also perfectionism as a theme

Margi Dehlin [00:23:30] that emerges, and also the coping of, like, I can take care of, you know, I'm okay, I can take care of situations. I'm strong. It's almost like life interrupted in a literal sense, where one minute you're 15, and then in another minute you're in a totally different role of, you know, on some level, taking care of, which maybe you had done a bit of up to that point. But there's. I would imagine, maybe I'll ask that. But when you lose a parent and then you're needed, you're actually needed, and you can see you're needed. And on a level, the parent that's left is mourning and grieving and needs help. That's a really different role. You know, it's a different feeling to be in that role. So. That too, yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:24:20] There's a lot there. There's a lot there. I feel like my first instinct with John's question is, I don't know. Perfectionism comes to mind for some reason. So I knew the path. I knew what the path was. The path was to follow the commandments of God, to do what is right, to not watch things or listen to or bring any influence of the spirit into your life that could mess things up or make it harder for you.

Louisa Killian [00:24:56] The plan was to get married in the temple, to raise a family of my own, basically to follow all the rules of Mormonism. That was the plan, and that was what my dad had done in order to be a good father and to change his life for the better.

Louisa Killian [00:25:14] And the plan never changed. But, yeah, to your. To your idea, Margi. Then I suddenly was taking care of my mother, which was not fair, and I knew it wasn't fair, and I didn't know how to do it, but I had to do it. And I feel like maybe this is where your two ideas come full circle, is there's this idea.

Louisa Killian [00:25:41] I felt in LDS doctrine that if you do all the right things, it will be okay in the end. And Heavenly Father is there for you, and there's a plan. It's all a part of the plan. But we have to work and we have to do what we're supposed to do in order to make it.

Louisa Killian [00:26:00] And so I always knew the things I was supposed to do, quote, unquote. And I really tried hard to do those things. And it sounds simple. When I say it out loud. But as a 15 year old, I just.

Louisa Killian [00:26:18] I felt the hustle. You've used that word before. I felt the hustle of all the things I was supposed to do in order to be a good LDS child and also a good child to my mother. And Mormonism sometimes wants to sugarcoat everything in that, like, oh, I knew my dad would be there because he passed away and now he's in the next life. And that brought some comfort to my mom and to me.

Louisa Killian [00:26:50] But there was a hole and that hole couldn't be ignored. Even though I tried to push it away. I didn't want to feel feelings that were sad because I think partly because that's. That was scary for me and, and it wouldn't help anything. And you could always say, well, things are going to be okay in the end, so I should just suck it up.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] So was your desire to see your dad again part of what becomes your religious devotion?

Louisa Killian [00:27:21] No, actually, I actually had conflicting feelings. And I will admit this. This is something that I is really hard for me to figure out psychologically. When he passed away, I felt an immense sense of grief and an immense sense of lightness.

Louisa Killian [00:27:41] My dad was pretty controlling and we had a tough relationship and suddenly I felt that control go away. I was afraid of him sometimes because he was bigger than me, but I loved him. It was this really interesting conundrum.

Louisa Killian [00:27:57] So part of my desire to do good, though, I think was not so much that I would see him again, but that could be part of it. It was that I. I wanted to do the right thing like he did in his life. And even though he. He had problems and, and he would always apologize to me after he realized that, oh, I shouldn't have yelled or something like that. He would always apologize. I really respected and loved my father. So that gave me kind of an earnestness to keep doing what was right so that he would be proud of me.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:29] Yeah, that space, I feel so much for that, that brain space of when you've experienced the difficulty of holding both things with a parent, that, that difficulty of holding how fiercely you loved him, all these brave, incredible aspects of his own journey, you know, his courage, his healing, his confronting things that were so difficult while also having to hold to, you know, that at times you felt afraid or at times you didn't have your needs met, or at times. And it's both. And that's a. That's really, really difficult. I think psychologically our brains don't love that. We love one thing or the other. It's much, it's much easier in my understanding.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:17] You can pipe in if my PhD psychology. But like, my understanding is it's, it's a different thing to process something that's all one thing. If someone is just consistently abusive or harmful or that's. That's one thing. But, but our brain can figure that out and we can kind of have closure around what needs to be done in time and with good support, clearly, and resources. But, but that complexity is something that's. It's altogether different. So incredibly hard.

College Years and Faith After Loss

John Dehlin [00:29:51] So where did your Mormon story take you from high school and beyond after your dad's death?

Louisa Killian [00:29:57] Well, I graduated high school and the university was kind enough to give me and my siblings half tuition credit to any BYU school, although I don't think it applied to BYU Hawaii. So it was just the Idaho or Utah school.

Louisa Killian [00:30:14] And that was really kind because the tuition was already cheap. And now I had half tuition credit. And my mom, because she was single, I received a Pell Grant. So I made money going to the church school. I didn't want to think about college when I graduated high school. So my mom ended up setting up the application for both BYU schools. And I filled it out. But in my heart, I really wanted to go to BYU Provo. I didn't want to go to the same school where I had grown up. So I applied for both schools and I didn't get into Provo. And that was hard for me because I felt like I wasn't good enough. So I ended up going to BYU Idaho after that.

John Dehlin [00:30:56] Okay, and how was, how was BYU Idaho for you? I mean, staying home, maybe that wasn't your first choice.

Louisa Killian [00:31:03] It wasn't. But again, a little unorthodox, at least in my mind. I would have roommates who would go home every weekend. And I was told, you know, at 18, you were out of the house. So my mom, you know, don't come back for laundry. You need to go be your own person. And I really respected her for that. She wanted to be me, to be independent. So I left home and I would visit every once in a while, but it really felt a little bit like a separation where I could have a, you know, college experience.

Louisa Killian [00:31:34] And I knew what I was getting into with the church school. I knew there would be, you know, dress codes and curfews and those sort of things. And I always thought, well, if you don't know how to, you knew what you were signing up when you came up for. So if you're not okay with the rules, then don't go to school here. So I was fine following the rules, even though some of them, I'm like, well, I'm working past one. I don't care. So I knew the rules were there going into it, and it would be that experience.

Louisa Killian [00:32:02] And then actually, when I left for college and was on my own for the first time, then I finally allowed myself to emotionally grieve my father. So that was something that happened because I had held it all inside for so long. I finally let all that out, so discovered that I hold emotions in, which is a part of my personality and journey.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:24] So what did that look like?

Louisa Killian [00:32:26] A purging? I didn't want counseling. When my dad had died, my mom suggested that we do it, but I didn't want to. And so I resisted. Resisted feeling emotion, went to college, lived on my own, and suddenly there it was. So I finally went, I think, to counseling and just let myself purge things. I was just kind of depressed.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:32:50] Yeah. So that was just a learning experience for. For me about how I'm dealing with grief and loss. Emotions specifically.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:59] And it sounds like one of your insights then, from that time, is it true still? Is this idea that you kind of hold it in?

Louisa Killian [00:33:07] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:08] And that you. Yeah. And then do you still have that cycle of hold it in, hold it in, and then some type of purge or outburst?

Louisa Killian [00:33:18] Yes, I still have that. I have a resistance to showing emotion and weakness. I'm much better now. But I did have a big resistance that. Because that was weak, and I believe, too, that was also feminine. And I wasn't okay with being feminine in that way. I wanted to be strong. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:36] Because you perceived feminine as weak.

Louisa Killian [00:33:41] Yeah, I did in the church, too. I saw it and was presented with it. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:49] Yeah. I'm. I'm curious. So it sounds like on some level you have kind of two. I don't want to say opposing two different experiences. You have this heaviness, this grief. Grief can be very heavy. It demands attention. Slow. Right. You're having. So you're having this, and it's very inward. And then you also have this moment of expansion, though you're on your own, and you're having this somewhat, you know, independent experience with some space away from your family, right?

Louisa Killian [00:34:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:24] So I'm curious at that. During this time, if I. What was your identity, would you say, if you were to kind of encapsulate who you were in these years of. Of college and what you. How you would have defined yourself? How would you have defined yourself? By what activities, by what adjectives? By what?

Louisa Killian [00:34:46] Yeah, I, I was still doing dance, so I was un. I was getting an English degree because I was always really good at that and I thought I would pursue the degree. I was very driven to get an education and not attend college to get married. I hated that idea. So I was there to get an education, loved English, was interested in that. I toured on a dance team during this time. So dance really fueled me and I was loving college experience.

Louisa Killian [00:35:20] I loved to finally in my mind have education that applied to what I wanted to do, although I didn't like college classes where I had to jump through hoops. So I think I would define it as I was independent. And in the beginning I was lost and I didn't know who I was because I was suddenly confronted with myself and I wasn't taking care of five younger siblings or my mom. And so then I felt all that grief and emotion, but then I processed it, I purged it a little bit. I met roommates, I opened up and I really, I think, started to blossom socially and in, in my studies. I would think.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:59] Yeah, yeah, that makes, that makes so much sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Okay. So do we start, do we start talking about how you end up in your first marriage or is there another important part of your Mormon journey before. For, for many Mormon young women, you go to college to get married. I don't want to say that's what your experience was, but that, that's what I've observed.

First Marriage: Early Warning Signs and Red Flags

Louisa Killian [00:36:25] Yeah. And I hated that. And I made fun of girls, not to their face, but I did. I would, I would adamantly say, you know, why are you wasting money going to school if you're just waiting to get a husband? I would consider myself in that way to be fairly feminist, which is h. Because yes. Then I got married at 21. So this is when enters my first husband.

Louisa Killian [00:36:51] Yeah. So I started. I graduated high school 2009 and then around 2010, my ex husband entered the scene. And I want to say that I'm probably not, I'm not going to mention his name. I don't want to hurt him in any way and I hope that he's happy and healthy now, but I'm going to explain things in my experience that happened to me and hopefully will help other people. That's only my intent because there were a lot of things that happened between us that were harmful to me. So I do this not to hurt him, but just, just to share.

Louisa Killian [00:37:30] So yeah, I met my ex husband. I had known him in high school, but he one day showed up on my Doorstep when I had started college or where it was home for Christmas, and came by and just said that he had been thinking that he needed to visit me. And he showed up, and I was, like, smitten. So that was the beginning of this sort of relationship where he entered my life.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] And so where does. Where does this go from there?

Louisa Killian [00:38:02] Yeah. So he shows up and says, hi, you know, and I'm like, oh, who are you? You're a little different than I remember from high school. And he said he was going on a mission, which, to me, I was surprised because he was a little bit of a drifter in high school, and I was happy for him.

Louisa Killian [00:38:22] And basically, things kind of progressed before he left on his mission, and he. He told me that he thought we were soul mates, and I just fell head over heels for this guy. Yeah, I was just. I was just really, really in love.

Louisa Killian [00:38:48] He wrote me beautiful letters and brought me gifts and all kinds of things, and I was. I wasn't. I didn't judge him for what his choices had been in high school or who he was before. I was just happy he was going on a mission and was choosing the church with me. Having a dad who had overcome things and decided to really follow the gospel later in his life, I really didn't care as much about people's past. And I remember this, too, being a big theme where guys would come up and, you know, I'd have a boyfriend maybe who said he had a problem with porn.

Louisa Killian [00:39:23] And I was like, that's. That's okay. That's fine. Like, those things didn't bother me, if that made sense. I was happy to forgive people for whatever their life was now and their choices.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] So did he go on a mission or did. Okay, and so you waited two years or you ended?

Louisa Killian [00:39:41] I thought waiting was stupid because I'm like, well, you change.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:39:45] So I didn't want to wait, But I was still very much in love. And we wrote letters. It was funny because he was actually called to an Idaho mission, so he wasn't supposed to write me because I was in his mission.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] Man, being from Idaho and then getting called to an Idaho mission, that might cause me to lose my faith.

Louisa Killian [00:40:02] It was something that's interesting. Yeah. He saw relatives of his because he had a lot of relatives in there.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:07] Wow.

Louisa Killian [00:40:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] Apostatized.

Louisa Killian [00:40:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] And I was born in Idaho, anyway.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] Okay. So were you tempted to see him while he was a missionary?

Louisa Killian [00:40:18] I was so tempted, yes. At a. At a. At one point, he was in Idaho falls, which was 20 minutes away. From Rexburg, Idaho. I would sometimes think of driving there and just driving around, seeing if I could see him. But at the same time, I thought, you know, waiting, stupid. I'm still going to date. So I would date. I dated during that time, and I had a few close relationships, but always I had him kind of in my. In the back of my mind. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:45] What are some of the qualities when you kind of think back, that kind of made him stick? If you think back to kind of what stood out to you about him? Do you remember?

Louisa Killian [00:40:58] He was confident. So I had a boyfriend in high school who was super sweet. And luckily we didn't struggle too much with law of chastity stuff as much. And he was. He was a really nice guy, but he was a little bit more passive. And when my ex came along, he was very confident and knew what he wanted and knew who he was and presented him that way and knew he liked me and went after me. And I found that very attractive compared to maybe some other guys I had dated that were a little more uncertain. And, I mean, the Mormon dating scene is intense.

Louisa Killian [00:41:36] Like, you're not dating just to have fun. You're dating to get married. So I think that also made a lot of guys kind of, you know, they don't want to come off too strong right away because that's frightening. Because then you're like, well, let's get married in three weeks.

Louisa Killian [00:41:51] So he very much came on strongly, and he just said and texted beautiful things. And I think that that really attracted me to him was his forwardness and confidence.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] So he gets off his mission. And how long did it take before wedding bells were ringing?

Louisa Killian [00:42:11] I did everything that I said I wouldn't do because I said, oh, I'll get married at 28. That sounds like a good idea.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] At age 28.

Louisa Killian [00:42:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:22] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:42:23] He gets home from his mission, he kisses me, like, the day he gets back, and then we get engaged and married. Let's see, he came back, we were engaged at Christmas, and then it was three months later, we got married.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:41] And if you were going to say at that point, you know, what you were looking for, what you had been conditioned to seek, what you had been taught to sort of value, what the major things that, you know, you were looking for, what would you say to that?

Louisa Killian [00:43:01] Strong in the gospel priesthood holder, Partly because of my patriarchal blessing. I think if my patriarchal blessing hadn't said that as specifically, I might not have cared as much. But definitely strong in the church. I wanted somebody who would be my partner. Who would respect me. I wanted someone who would view our relationship as equal, who was intellectually the same, who would appreciate my interest in dance and English, who wouldn't. Who would be open to doing. I really appreciated how my dad was open to things that would be considered more feminine and in that way, not be overly. I don't want to say masculine, but, you know, like, overly dominating.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:55] Oh, I see.

Louisa Killian [00:43:56] As a partner, perhaps, or just open to liking things, no matter what stereotypes told them. I wanted somebody who was kind. I think those are the main ones. It's hard to go back. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] And did he seem to meet all those checkboxes?

Louisa Killian [00:44:14] Oh, yes. 100.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:44:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] He's a return missionary. And were there any red flags that you now, looking back, ignored that you want to share?

Louisa Killian [00:44:25] Yes. He sent me a letter on his mission that said he had beat up his companion. And at the time, I was like, oh, that's hard. And I was sort of on his side. But looking back, physical violence was probably not a good thing. There was also something. When we were dating, he came back and I think we were engaged. And I had a friend who, like, took my car keys, threw them into the snow. He was being funny.

Louisa Killian [00:44:53] And my ex started a fight with him. And after that happened, I told him in the car, I said that you're really cruel. That was cruel. And I didn't agree with that. So that sort of behavior was a red flag.

Louisa Killian [00:45:09] But again, I forgave it and overlooked it. The other red flag was law of chastity. Things. I had always been pretty good. I made out with my boyfriend in high school and looked up if that was okay on the strength of you things, and found out it kind of wasn't, but that I was okay because we weren't really. We weren't touching, and da, da, da. So I had done that. But when we were engaged, he touched me twice. And one, he had tried to touch me lower, and I moved his hand. And it was kind of unexpected for me. The second time was actually our marriage was in jeopardy.

Louisa Killian [00:45:49] Our wedding. We were sitting with siblings at my family's house, and he touched me under my shirt. And I wasn't expecting it because we were watching a movie and my siblings were around, and I never would have wanted that. It wasn't like we were in the heat of a moment. But he touched me. And afterwards, I went upstairs and I said, okay, we need to go to the bishop.

Louisa Killian [00:46:14] So I turned us in. I said, we need to go in. And for some reason, I thought it was my Fault too. So we sat there and because he had been through the temple, he was on the chopping block a little bit more than I was. I was told not to take the sacrament for a while, but our wedding was in jeopardy because of that. Looking back now, I realize that was not my fault at all.

Louisa Killian [00:46:41] But at the time, and even in my journals I write that, you know, we messed up on chastity issues, we did this, and it's because we love each other so much. But it totally flew off the radar for me that, no, you didn't do anything in both instances.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:59] So at the time when you were having the experience, did you have like a consent alarm? Is that what initially happened was when you were like, I didn't. I wouldn't have wanted that in that situation, that you were having some type of boundary alarm of not necessarily wanting it. But then afterwards, the way you processed it was that it was the both of you, or do you think from the beginning, just curious, as a woman who has absorbed, you know, messages and now we. Consent is a.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:30] A word that, you know, is well, hopefully well discussed. But do you remember that? Do you remember this feeling of like a boundary being kind of like, no, I didn't want that, or a consent issue just an alarm bell and then processing around it? Or did you always feel like from the beginning, it was my fault too? That was mine to hold too. It's okay if you can't remember. I just think it's interesting I remember.

Louisa Killian [00:48:02] I mean, luckily I didn't. I had a very strong sense of self esteem as a woman and about my body. I had a very body positive experience, which I am very grateful for. So in that way, I didn't blame myself, like, oh, I was wearing something, or oh, I'm provocative. But what I did was I something, you know, happened and I wasn't expecting it. And I remember, like taking his hand and like patting it and saying, no. Like, it was almost like. I viewed the situation that we had both messed up. It wasn't entirely my fault, but somehow I had contributed to it. Is that making sense? It's like I didn't even think that he was the bad guy ever, because I loved him so much. So it was about forgiving and being like, I love you. You have beautiful intentions. This is only because we love each other so much.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:04] Got it.

Louisa Killian [00:49:06] And. And it's not a bad thing because you love me.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Yeah. So you got married.

Louisa Killian [00:49:14] I did.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] And. And how were you thinking about balancing education, career, and early marriage once you got married?

Louisa Killian [00:49:25] Yeah. Well, I had graduated right before we got married. Luckily, the wedding was allowed to go through. He had to have a disciplinary for what we had done. And then we were allowed to get married in the temple. He wasn't able to be there for my endowment because of what we had done, but we were able to get married.

Louisa Killian [00:49:45] I had just graduated, so I had my degree. He was just starting because he got back from his mission. We were the same age, so the idea was I would be the breadwinner in a sense, while he was in school and he would go to school.

Louisa Killian [00:50:00] So I had to find a job in Little Rexburg, Idaho, which was pretty concentrated of students. So it's hard to get a job. I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I had an English degree. I applied for a few secretarial jobs and things like that, but I hadn't done any kind of internship. So I was sort of thrown into the job market. I ended up working at a daycare, which wasn't my first choice, but it made money actually for Melaleuca, which is an mlm.

Louisa Killian [00:50:26] But I taught, I worked at their daycare and then I also taught dance part time. And I loved teaching and I sort of chose to do part time jobs so that I could keep teaching dance. That's where. That's where my heart was. I also worked at like a weight vest company online. Weight vest company. So I was working part time jobs and he was going to school while we were married.

Marriage Unraveling and Difficult Choices

John Dehlin [00:50:49] Okay. And so if you had to say kind of how things went wrong in the marriage, how would you describe it? Like what happened?

Louisa Killian [00:51:01] It was like a bomb went off and it happened quickly. We got married in the spring of 2013, and around this time my mom also remarried. So she was married in that winter December. And then I was married right after her, which was kind of a fun experience.

Louisa Killian [00:51:21] Within that year, around that December, the first thing that happened was he talked to me about stealing money from a cash register in the temple. We had worked there as temple workers, the clothing rental. And so there was a cash register where we worked. I would give out the women's clothing, he would give out the men's.

Louisa Killian [00:51:47] And he stole, he told me at the time, he stole some cash from the register. And I remember kind of being shocked. And throughout that conversation, the way it ended was I was comforting him by the end of it because he was upset that I wasn't supporting him and he was afraid I would react that way. So it was odd because I was hit with this blow of, oh, you were stealing things. And then by the end of the conversation, I was comforting him, and I.

Louisa Killian [00:52:19] Yeah. I don't remember how long it was until then, but then a few weeks later, the cops, or maybe a week, the police showed up at my door and arrested him for felony charges. And I had no idea what those charges were. So that's how it began.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:38] Wow.

Louisa Killian [00:52:39] That's how it began.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] It's one thing to steal something. To steal from the temple, like that just seems.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] For a return missionary, orthodox Mormon temple worker, that seems unthinkable to me.

Louisa Killian [00:52:53] Yeah. Yeah. And then as things un. You know, came out. And again, I hope he's in a good place now. But as things came out, it turned out he was stealing all over in different parts of his life. So at certain jobs, he had stolen things. He stole credit cards from BYU students. That was how he was initially caught, stealing credit cards and spending them. He got fired from a job because he was stealing things. So this stealing thing had been happening in multiple areas. He stole from a locker in the temple. A worker did lock it. That's really interesting when you start to think about, oh, there's locks in the temple. The most holiest place for them. No. Yeah, yeah. There's locks there for a reason.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Had you prayed to know whether you should marry him?

Louisa Killian [00:53:37] Good question.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] Have you gotten an answer?

Louisa Killian [00:53:39] I did pray. I didn't receive an answer either way. And so I thought, okay, well, then I'll go forward in faith.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:53:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] Okay. Okay. So you find out he's got this history of. Of theft, and how did things go from there?

Louisa Killian [00:53:58] So he was arrested. He was taken to jail. I was approached by a family member to bail him out, and I said no. I. We were separated for a few months, and I tried to decide what to do.

Louisa Killian [00:54:17] So everything started to come out. We eventually met with the bishop, and that's when I found out he hadn't told me everything. The bishop knew that he had stolen and said, tell your wife, and he didn't. So there were lots of, like, meeting with the bishop to the side because the church had to hold a disciplinary hearing because it was a felony charge.

Louisa Killian [00:54:38] He was eventually charged and was given probation. And I basically, during this time of separation, decided whether to stay. So I was tormented with having to decide whether to stay with this person. And I had. I have in my journal, like, lists of people in my life who had opinions on it. Like, I still really cared what other people thought in my life.

Louisa Killian [00:55:06] So my family, you know, was really worried about me and kind of wanted me to get a divorce. My grandpa said, you should get a divorce. My grandpa also said, don't go to the bishop. He'll tell you that you have to stay in the marriage. Bishop said, yeah, you know, you should keep your marriage going.

Louisa Killian [00:55:22] So I just had all these voices telling me, you know, which way I should go. And I would go to the temple. And I didn't get an answer one way or the other, but I felt like I was getting revelation of, like, this is what you need to do now. This is, you know, this is the next step to take.

Louisa Killian [00:55:39] But never was it, here's what you do, Louisa, so that it will all be okay. And that was really frustrating because I hadn't done anything wrong, but I was terrified of the future. And I mean, we got married in the temple. This wasn't just a marriage. This was eternally, this was forever.

Louisa Killian [00:55:59] And I remember thinking that before I got married, before we walked into the ceiling room, I thought, oh, no, this is a big deal. And I kind of wanted to run away. But by that point, you're there, it's, it's, you're getting sealed. And so I wasn't just gonna throw away my eternal marriage for nothing. So I just spent months trying to decide what to do.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Thinking about that now what 21 year old is capable of deciding who they're going to live with not just for their entire life, but for eternity. When you, when you dated three months before your, your marriage, I mean, I know you knew before, but like that's. Who can, who can, who's capable of making that decision so young.

Louisa Killian [00:56:51] But see, God would have told me if it was wrong.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:56:55] In my head, it wasn't just my decision, it was God's. This was the plan for me.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:57:01] Yeah. At least that's how I viewed it. Right? Like, oh, this is the one. This is my soul mate. And he made me feel that way. So yeah, this was, I was doing all the right things. This should work out.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] So it sounds like the church culture plus his charisma or charm convince you to stay with them in spite of all these felony theft charges and this history.

Louisa Killian [00:57:26] Ultimately, well, I mean, that was pressure. Yeah, ultimately it was my decision. And in the end I decided, I think I had been to the temple and I felt that God loved him. And I thought, well, God, if you love him, that's enough for me to stay.

Louisa Killian [00:57:43] And I also regretted, I thought that if I leave him now, this is the first time he's been arrested for felony charge, which is why he Got probation because he stole a lot. There were multiple counts of theft.

Louisa Killian [00:58:02] If I don't give him a chance, I might regret it. So I really wanted it to be my decision. But the reason I took it so seriously was because of the church. Absolutely. I had saved myself for somebody, so it became much more serious.

Louisa Killian [00:58:21] But I do feel like ultimately it was my decision. I didn't feel like God told me to stay necessarily, but he told me it was my choice, is what I felt like in the moment.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] And you decided to stay?

Louisa Killian [00:58:31] I did.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] And then how'd that go?

Louisa Killian [00:58:34] We went to counseling from an LDS counselor, which was an experience. But one thing that I took out from that was he said, if this happens again, what are you going to do? And I said, if this happens again, I can't handle it emotionally. I'm out. So I did make that decision.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:49] You found a boundary.

Louisa Killian [00:58:50] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:51] Within yourself?

Louisa Killian [00:58:52] Yes. And I stated that boundary.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:54] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:58:55] So that was really good. We chose to. Yeah. So I chose to stay while he was in. I visited him while he was in jail. And that was a bizarre experience where I'm this little good Mormon girl in Rexburg, Idaho, going to a jail to visit my husband. Somebody asked me if I was the girlfriend. When I showed up, like, no, I'm actually married.

Louisa Killian [00:59:18] Looking at my husband behind the glass, talking to him on the phone, it's just like, not. Not at all the picture. And I never understood why. And I. I don't know if anybody has that answer. I never understood why he stole things. So I never had any kind of closure of, why did you do these things? How can I help?

Louisa Killian [00:59:41] We went to counseling both individually and together, but I never had. I never understood. So there wasn't really trust because it was so confusing. It didn't make any rational sense to me. We didn't need money, if that made sense. Anyway, I never got closure with that.

Louisa Killian [01:00:01] So we. At that time, I applied for the University of Utah for their master's program in dance. And I went to that audition with my mom because he was in jail or we were separated. So I went down and I applied for the program. But I got in because by that point I decided I really love teaching dance. And English hadn't panned out for me. That's when I figured out that I liked English prompts, but I don't know what else to do with it.

Louisa Killian [01:00:33] So I moved to Salt Lake University of Utah. He came with me. He got to transfer his probation here, and we started a new. It felt like a new start up here.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:47] It's so interesting because as you're kind of talking, it reminds me of this idea of compounded loss because at the beginning of your, your college experience, it feels like you're, you, you had a minute of space, you're, you're grieving and you're starting to kind of, you know, build an identity, a life of sorts, and then you're doing all the things, you know, that you're. And then, and by the way, you've already kind of been hit by life in a way that is traumatic, that, you know, how does one prepare for something like that? And then you're, you're going about that and you've just kind of opened the loss and you're getting support for that.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:29] You get married and then you're hit with another. I, I would imagine there's betrayal there, but there's also loss of like, why am I here? How did I get here? And again, another situation for like, what, how, like you were kind of saying, how does a 21 year old reason and, and make these, make these calls about someone's psychology and what it means?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:58] And did you feel loss at the time? Did you have that sense of a heaviness of like this person, this chosen person? You're showing up, you're doing all the things, you know, that you've kind of learned about. And yet your, your experience is deeply traumatizing.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:19] You know, when I think of who I am at 21, I'm very, I'm, I'm quite still innocent to the play out, let's just say. What did that feel like? Did you have a sense of that loss in that during that time of being hit by something heavy?

John Dehlin [01:02:37] Like a loss of innocence, you mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:39] Yeah. And a loss even of, I don't know, did it hit you, Hit you at the trust of the formula yet? Like, I'm doing all the things. How did I get here? Like I'm supposed to. Am I protected? I'm supposed to sort of.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] I married the rm.

Louisa Killian [01:02:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:55] Like I'm doing all the things.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Wait, double marriage.

Church Counsel, Staying in a Troubled Marriage

Louisa Killian [01:02:59] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:59] This was definitely not in the narrative.

Louisa Killian [01:03:01] Yeah, yeah. It was a bomb that went off and it was bigger because I didn't see it coming at all. And, and so one minute you're happy and think everything's okay, and the next minute police are at your door and you're.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:18] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:03:18] And I'm like, what about the spirit? Like, should I have been warned that, that my spouse was going to do this? Or, you know, I started second guessing my marriage. I prayed about it. Why Didn't. Why didn't God tell me? No. So then you start to go with, well, I'm supposed to go through this for some reason, and does God want me to stay with him or not? And it was so frustrating because I didn't ask to be put in that. That place. But. But I had to decide for me and for my future children. I felt the weight of posterity on me. I'm going to stay with this person, and I could have children with this person, but I had already made the decision. Eternally.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Yeah. That. That idea of eternal marriage, it. There's a face of it that's so beautiful. It's like, whoa, we can live together forever on the other side. It's like you're. You're locked in, you're sealed, you're not going anywhere. I mean, they even use the term sealed. There's no getting out of it. It can make you feel bound to something that maybe you shouldn't feel eternally bound to.

Louisa Killian [01:04:26] Yeah. And it was confusing because the bishop, who was my spiritual leader, was saying I should stay. And I remember sitting in that office and him telling me, basically, you know, you should probably work this out. And I remember thinking distinctly, what if I was your daughter, would you want me to stay in this relationship?

Louisa Killian [01:04:45] Because my dad wasn't alive. And he couldn't tell me what to do, And he couldn't protect me, and yet I was sitting here in this office, and this bishop, you know, is telling me that I should work out my marriage based on what he sees. And he knows that my spouse has lied to me, but it doesn't affect him. It affects my life forever.

Louisa Killian [01:05:26] Yeah. And it's just you have all these people around you who judge, saying, oh, well, I didn't think he was a good person. Yeah. So I just. I was so. I felt so helpless. And I really tried to cleave to God into the temple. And I would go to the temple and really feel like that's where I felt what I should do next.

Louisa Killian [01:05:54] But it was so confusing. And then to have a counselor who would use biblical references to try to keep you in a marriage. It was just I and marriage. I'd never been married before. I didn't know what sex was. I didn't know what a healthy marriage was. I was just going along with what had been taught to me. So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:25] Yeah, you don't know what you don't

Louisa Killian [01:06:28] know, you don't know what you don't know. And all I wanted to do was the right thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:34] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:06:34] But that was confusing that the church itself was telling me to stay, but those people who loved me closest were telling me to leave. And I wasn't seeing any future in sight. God wasn't telling me what was going to happen later. All I could do was have faith and make a decision and try to protect myself. But it's not like I knew anybody who had been through that experience. Oh, you know, your husband cheated on you. And for whatever reason, I didn't know why my spouse was stealing things and not telling me about them. I just felt like I had no resources except for the little revelation I was getting from God.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] And what's doubly hard is a bishop can, a Mormon bishop can have a conflict of interest because he would be representing the church that's going to lean towards stay in your marriage. Families are eternal. You got sealed. And so he's not trained to be a marriage counselor. And he's, he's, he's biased, he's going to be biased by the church's preferences for you. And then your counselor is also church affiliated, church appointed, same thing. And so you're not getting, you know, one of the things a mental health professional commits to is a, is a code of ethics that includes not imposing their values on the clients. But here you're trusting a therapist and a bishop who, who kind of probably are imposing their values on you, even if they're not doing it intentionally. And that's, that's not what's best for the, that's not always what's best for the member.

Louisa Killian [01:08:19] To be fair, the therapist asked me when we got started, am I helping you with a divorce? Am I helping you stay together? There was that.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:08:26] The bishop, their job is to keep the marriage together. Yeah, that, that in an abusive situation, 99 out of 100 times is horrible.

John Dehlin [01:08:35] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:08:36] Because then somebody who's being abused stays in the marriage because they're going to make it work. Because the person, and I'm not saying I was abused to a certain extent. I'm talking about, you know, people who are. Because if you have somebody who's hurting their spouse and they're saying, I'm repentant, I'm going to keep trying, that person will stay in the relationship, at least in my experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:56] Yeah, there's, there's just tremendous vulnerability. Also, I'm noticing that pattern of, you know, being conditioned to look outside ourselves. You know, you looking to like, what does God want me to do? And when you pray, it's like, what does God want me to do? What does my mom want me to do? What does my uncle want to do? And all the opinions and everything's kind of outside yourself. And you, you've just hit a situation where it is like if you could have a connection with yourself, this would be the time to like really, you know, what do I, what do I feel? What do I need to do? But it rely like you have to develop that, to have that in a moment like that. So it just leaves you so incredibly vulnerable in a place where, you know, you did not have the resources to self advocate. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:09:49] And I had taken care of people my whole life. I was really good at putting myself on the back burner. Yeah, I had, I had a great sense of self esteem, but at the same time I would, I could be walked on for other people. That's fine if they needed me. And that's a bad combination for being taken advantage of for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:11] Yeah.

Transition to BYU and Dance Career

John Dehlin [01:10:13] So how do you get from University of Utah to byu?

Louisa Killian [01:10:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] And what happens to your marriage along the way?

Louisa Killian [01:10:19] So I loved my U of U experience. That graduate program was amazing. I just, I just loved it. And that was where I got exposed finally to different points of view. You know, I had a grad cohort and I had people of different sexual orientations and different religions and people who swore and people. And I say that because I read my journal and those are some things I mention.

Louisa Killian [01:10:47] Finally, I was in a place where there was diversity in thought and in lifestyle. And I had craved that younger, but I hadn't received it in Rexburg and had to go to a college in my hometown. So at the U, I was exposed to all these really great people of different backgrounds.

Louisa Killian [01:11:09] Things started like. It started to feel like a fresh start. So that was nice to move away from family to have a new ward, a new bishop. Nobody knew us, nobody knew our past. It felt like a fresh new start.

Louisa Killian [01:11:23] So we started rebuilding things in our marriage. And we spent a few years at the U. And then my last year there, as I was finishing up my thesis work, I had a woman come over to my apartment asking me about dance. She wanted to go talk about it, so I said okay.

Louisa Killian [01:11:47] As we were leaving to go, we were gonna go get, go to a coffee shop and talk about it. We got in her car and there was another woman in the car from my apartment complex. And she said, I don't want to talk to you about dance. I need to tell you about your husband.

Louisa Killian [01:12:04] And she showed me text messages that she had received from him. They were pictures of text messages. So she wasn't showing me the whole thread. And basically my spouse was asking if basically advocating for sex, saying, I know you're having troubles in your marriage. I can give you sex.

Louisa Killian [01:12:25] And so it was a bomb again, where I didn't feel like I had very much of a warning again. I had had kind of a weird feeling about. This person had stayed over us at our house once because they needed a place to stay. And my husband had offered her rides to work. And I offered to come, and he said, that's okay. I had little nudges, but I wasn't prepared for that. So they showed me that. And that was the second bomb.

Louisa Killian [01:12:55] I went back to the apartment, called my bishop, ended up staying at a neighbor's house in the apartment complex we lived in, the graduate student housing complex. And I went over and I confronted my ex with the text messages, and he confirmed that he had sent them. And the next day I presented my thesis work.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Oh, wow.

Louisa Killian [01:13:20] It wasn't my final proposal, but yeah. So that was the second mom that dropped. And I remember staying over at the apartment of my friends, being terrified of going back to the house with this person. And I had not been on birth control for about three months because I thought we were going to have a baby.

Louisa Killian [01:13:49] And there was only one time we had an unprotected sex. And I remember thinking, what if I'm pregnant? And then I remembered thinking of abortion being an option. And that was the first time I was confronted with that reality and understood why people consider it. And I say this because it's come up and also because that's a hot topic now.

Louisa Killian [01:14:10] But that was really unexpected, too, of realizing that if I had a baby with this person, I would then be associated. Like, I would. I would have to have contact with him with somebody who I was terrified of for the rest of my life. Luckily, I wasn't pregnant. But that was a distinct moment of fear that night. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] So did that end the marriage or not?

Louisa Killian [01:14:33] Yeah, because I told him if it happened again, then that would be it. So I said, okay, we have to get. We're getting divorced. And this was interesting because the bishop that I met with this time had to flip his tie on his shoulder, which I've had people do, that one person did it at byu, Idaho, when they were talking about things that weren't considered doctrine. And he said, I'm not saying this as a bishop, but I agree with you your decision to get divorced.

John Dehlin [01:14:58] So there are bishops where, when they want to talk in an unchurch, sanctioned way, there's A ritual of flipping the tie to say. Now I'm going to say things that the church wouldn't want me to say. And I'm not a bishop. I'm now speaking as a man, not as a bishop.

Louisa Killian [01:15:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] I've never heard of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:15] I've also never heard of that. Oh, yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:15:17] It happened in a class at By Idaho when they were talking about the curse of Cain. He flipped it and talked about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Well, I mean, I guess I'm glad that he was able to step out of the constraints of his Bishop Lee role.

Louisa Killian [01:15:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] And give you advice that was probably better for you, but not with the church wanted him to. I wonder if that was. That was at all. If one of those cognitive dissonance in his mind. It's like, I'm gonna do what the church doesn't want you to do and tell you to do what's best for you.

Louisa Killian [01:15:49] I think people do it all the time in those roles.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:15:52] I think they know what they're supposed to do according to policy. But we realize that life changes. And I appreciated that. He was a wonderful man. He supported me as a woman.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:01] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:16:01] To divorce my husband. And he hadn't seen any of the prior stuff. I just told him about him briefly. But he knew. And that's the thing. My whole life I've had to rely on the instinct of men in authority to tell me how they feel about my life in different situations. And if they have an instinct that's sympathetic, sometimes that can help me. If it's not sympathetic, that can make it harder for me.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:27] Louisa. Wow. That's powerful.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] So feeling dependent on male validation.

Louisa Killian [01:16:34] Of course. Because they're my spiritual leader.

John Dehlin [01:16:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:37] And deciders.

Louisa Killian [01:16:39] Deciders. Yeah. In many ways, I hold them more as having more authority over the future. So I take advice from women in my life who I believe, you know, have spiritual instinct. But my bishop's My bishop. He's supposed to have even more sight

John Dehlin [01:16:55] and care over me and special powers to know what's best. Right.

Louisa Killian [01:17:00] It's his. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] Yeah. Domain or. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:06] So this. I'm curious in this time the significance what it meant to you or for you to have a world that you created that was just yours in dance. The significance of that.

Louisa Killian [01:17:22] That's interesting. Yeah. Because I have this dual. Dual existence where as a woman and even as a woman in the Church, I've been strong and independent and I say what I want to say. I have no problem raising my hands and disagreeing with a bishop.

Louisa Killian [01:17:42] I have that Persona. But at the same Time I have this passiveness of, like, helping other people and sort of sacrificing myself in a sense. So that's interesting because, yeah, dance and the education aspect, I was flourishing. That's where I was happy and really growing as an individual and as a person.

Louisa Killian [01:18:10] And then for some reason. Yeah. In my personal life or in my church life, feeling that be either stifled or even, I don't know, taken advantage of in some way. It is. It's. There's two things happening at the same time, I think.

Louisa Killian [01:18:31] And it's weird to feel like I'm put together. I'm applying for a master's. I'm the one doing all these things to get us XYZ or whatever. I feel strong in this area, and yet I'm being pulled back. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:49] Did you feel a sense of joy and a sense of, like, what did it mean for you when you could dance amidst and you kind of were in this space of, you know, feeling a little less acted upon? Let's just say. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:19:05] I will say that at this time, for my master's program, I was studying to become more a choreographer and teacher. So for me, it was the creation aspect of dance where I was being a leader. I was leading classes, I was leading my dancers. It wasn't so much as a performer, although the physical exercise definitely helps get me out of that headspace. And I did perform for the Performing Dance Company at the time, and I was so excited to get on that because I haven't always been a strong performer because I've been drumming and doing other things. I built up my technique so I could finally perform on the team.

Louisa Killian [01:19:45] And I cried when I got it because I was so happy. So for me, the performing and the physical definitely moves the mind to a completely different realm. And you're able to really refresh and rejuvenate and just focus on the present. But also as a creator and as an intellectual. That space was so freeing and beautiful and just opening up all new kinds of thoughts and.

Louisa Killian [01:20:11] Really? Yeah, I mean, a distraction for sure, from the pain of other things going on. I think if I didn't have that, I mean, at this point, I became pretty suicidal. Trigger warning. And I was at a really, really low this. In my journal, I can see thinking of attempts of suicide and things like that. And if I hadn't had my grad program, yeah, I would have been a lot worse off, I think.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:20:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] So how'd you. So you graduated? Did the divorce happen with the graduation and then how did you get to byu?

Louisa Killian [01:21:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:01] So

Louisa Killian [01:21:03] we separated in October, and then our divorce was finalized in March and then. Yeah. And then that spring, I graduated. Technically, my thesis, I think, was approved that summer, and I landed two adjunct positions at Snow College and byu, so working part time at both universities. So I moved to Provo and I would commute to Snow College Tuesdays and Thursdays and teach at BYU Monday, Wednesday, Friday. So it was like having a full time position without benefits. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Okay. And that's kind of exciting. You, you were rejected when you applied to BYU Provo as a student, and now you're coming as a adjunct faculty. That's kind of cool.

Louisa Killian [01:21:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] And that's maybe that sweetened the, the bitterness a bit of the divorce. I don't know.

Louisa Killian [01:21:55] It was, it was really wonderful to have somewhere to go.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:22:01] I didn't have to move back in with my family and I was so grateful to have a job. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:06] No, but like, for a believing Mormon, BYU is a special. There are a lot of, a lot of people that want to get hired at byu.

Louisa Killian [01:22:13] I guess for me, I didn't see it as like, oh, I'm, I'm excited to teach at the Lord's University. I was more excited to have a job, but. But BYU does have a very strong dance program, so I was really excited for that program. So, yeah, I looked at it more intellectually than I did spiritually, which is how I approached my undergrad.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:22:32] I'm not here to get a man. I'm here to get an education.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] Good. Good for you.

Becoming a BYU Faculty Member

Margi Dehlin [01:22:35] And what did you teach at BYU and Snow? Actually, what, what classes did you teach?

Louisa Killian [01:22:42] Because I had my masters, I was able to teach a lot. I taught technique through modern dance, technique beginner through advanced, and then as well as a few lecture courses, Freshman seminar, Introduction to Dance, I believe, some choreography classes, composition classes, beginner's ballet.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:02] Yeah, wonderful.

Louisa Killian [01:23:03] Yeah. Basically whatever I could.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] So when you teach at byu, what, you know, do they ask you? Do you have to have like a ecclesiastical endorsement? Do the people. Is there a discussion about the honor code? Is there a discussion about Temple recommends? Is there a discussion about worthiness? What commitments do you make to become a, A faculty at byu?

Louisa Killian [01:23:29] Yeah. So when I emailed them, I emailed the dance department and said, hey, I just got my masters. They emailed my back, asked me to come teach a. So I came and taught a class. They observed me. After I taught the class, the administrator, the professor asked me if I had a current Temple recommend, and I said yes. And so that Was it. I don't know what would have happened if they said no, but she asked that right off the bat. And then it was my understanding that sort of like a student, when you go to teach for them, you have to be endorsed by your bishop every so often in order to keep your standing at byu. So, yeah, same kind of thing for students.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] So it's vetting to make sure you have a active current temple recommend.

Louisa Killian [01:24:17] Verbally?

John Dehlin [01:24:18] Yes, verbally. And then. And then just your ongoing bishop approval.

Louisa Killian [01:24:24] Yes. And I believe in my application, the first time I had to sign up online, I think it did say, do you have a temple recommend? I think it also, I know it for sure. Asked when I was applying for a full time position and met with a general authority for that one.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] That did happen.

Louisa Killian [01:24:41] Yeah, I. I applied for a full time and I got the final interview. I didn't get the job, but I was in the final three.

John Dehlin [01:24:49] Okay, what, what? So what was that like talking to a general authority about becoming BYU faculty? What was. Are you comfortable talking about that?

Louisa Killian [01:24:58] Oh, yeah, I brought his name so I could remember who it was.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] Okay.

Louisa Killian [01:25:02] Yeah. But what I was gonna say is on that application, it even asked you what your calling is. It says, what are your. What's your calling in the church? Which I thought was fascinating for a job interview. And part of me. Oh, it did happen too, when I applied for the adjunct because it said. Because I was like, oh, I get to put Relief Society counselor or something. I was like, that'll look good. I had that thought. And then I had the thought, wait a second.

Louisa Killian [01:25:25] I shouldn't care about that. All callings are equal. Right. But that was interesting that they asked you what kind of calling you had. Yeah, So I was, I applied for a full time position there. I was asked to apply and I got down to the final three, which meant I went to church headquarters and met with a general authority. And I wrote about it afterwards because it was such an interesting experience. So, you know, you drive in under that underground parking and you get to go into that big building in there, you know, telling me that Holland and Uchtdorf and all those offices are right around the corner.

Louisa Killian [01:25:57] As I'm entering, I see Elder Christofferson and like, wow, there he is in person. I met with Elder Cornish of the General Authority, and when I entered, it was kind of like, like almost a wooden kind of temple feel. There's like dark wood and it feels very businesslike, but temple ish, if that makes sense. Very clean. And when I entered, I almost felt like, why am I wearing what I'm wearing? I was wearing, like, a bright colored shirt. I felt very vulnerable, kind of as a woman.

Louisa Killian [01:26:30] And I entered and I met with him. He had a woman secretary. And I was struck by two things. One was he asked me what I thought about the honor code. And I said, you know what? For me, it's about obedience.

Louisa Killian [01:26:47] Even though we know not why I gave the quote from the Temple of I, and it's in the scriptures from Adam, says, I, I know not why I give this sacrifice. Basically, I'm being obedient, even though I don't know the reason. And he said, that's the telestial answer. The real answer is that it's obedience that brings forth blessings.

Louisa Killian [01:27:09] And I thought, oh, so it's about obedience. He said, Satan was kicked out for rebellion and we need to be obedient. So that was really interesting that I found out from him that the ultimate source was obedience and not necessarily my answer.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] There's that Mormon teaching that obedience is the first law of heaven. So he's. The celestial answer is obedience.

Louisa Killian [01:27:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:27:35] Which to me felt a little wrong. And. But then the second thing I appreciated was I bore my testimony. And he said, that testimony is like bricks. And it's okay if you don't have all the bricks. You do one brick at a time and that's enough. And I thought that was really generous and gracious. But, yeah, I remember distinctly feeling unworthy, which was weird for me.

John Dehlin [01:28:02] Why do you think they have general authorities interview prospective BYU faculty? What do you think his role was?

Louisa Killian [01:28:07] They told me over and over, over, I am not in charge of getting you a job. This is not a part of the job interview. And in my head, every time I thought, well, why am I here? So they told me that they do not have any influence over who they hire. I can only think that they want to keep an eye on things or they actually do have influence on who they hire. But they told me it has nothing to do with that. They just like to get to know the faculty or something.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] But it's before the decision's made.

Louisa Killian [01:28:37] Yes. Oh, yes. It's like the final interview you do.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] And do they emphasize what they expect of you if you are to get hired?

Louisa Killian [01:28:46] Is that part of it that I don't remember? Yeah, I know they brought up the honor code, so maybe that's sort of passively introducing things they want me to uphold. Right. Like, don't talk badly about this. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] Were there questions about apostasy or criticizing the brethren? That you remember anything like that?

Louisa Killian [01:29:04] There was temple recommend interview question.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Okay.

Louisa Killian [01:29:06] Yes. And I remember now having to answer the divorce questions at that time.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] How was that?

Louisa Killian [01:29:13] Weird.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] Well, like what, what divorce questions?

Louisa Killian [01:29:16] I wish I could remember verbatim. And so maybe this was more of like a general authority temple interview. But they asked if you had been divorced and I believe they asked the reasons why and if I was paying child support. And I was happy to be able to explain why.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:29:31] But they definitely asked about my marital status and divorce state.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] I'm a tiny bit surprised they would. Well, they didn't hire you, but I'm. I'm a tiny bit surprised they would consider hiring a single person because my, my sense is that church leaders might feel threatened by single women in professional roles.

Louisa Killian [01:29:57] I don't think so, because I. At BYU Idaho, there's a single woman who applied for a full time position at the dance department. I wouldn't be surprised if they view dance as something not as important. Honestly. I could see them caring about that, maybe for religion classes, but I don't know if they care as much. I could also see them giving preference to married people. And again, I think it probably depends on who is a part of that committee.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] Got it.

Louisa Killian [01:30:23] That's my opinion. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Okay. So how was it teaching at byu?

Louisa Killian [01:30:28] Wonderful. They had a great, huge dance program, lots of dance classes. I was teaching like basically as much as I could as an adjunct full time load pretty much. I got to go to New York as a part of a festival and go to the LDS Arts Festival.

Louisa Killian [01:30:46] So I loved it and I love the students. I did a few unorthodox things where I taught there. I would ask preferred pronouns at the beginning of my class. Again, I got my master's degree at the U. So that was part of the training as a teacher was you, you know, you want to make it a safe space for all types of students.

Louisa Killian [01:31:06] Even though we're at byu, I was happy to call anyone by their preferred program. I only had one person, one student approach me and asked for me to say they. And that was after they had taken my class. And then I didn't see them anymore at by, but I did offer it.

Louisa Killian [01:31:23] And I would also sometimes show a little bit more LGBTQ friendly videos, dance videos, things like that. But so in that way I felt like, oh, maybe I'm skirting the line a little. But I mean, it was wonderful to teach there.

Louisa Killian [01:31:40] I loved the students. And at that time they were filming the Book of Mormon videos and I had boys in my class with Long hair. And they were allowed to have that because they were in the Book of Mormon videos with funny things like that. But loved the dance department. Good people there.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] Okay.

Louisa Killian [01:31:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] So did your. I guess it was a BYU where your. Where your faith started to be really challenged. Is that right?

Louisa Killian [01:32:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:04] How did that happen?

Louisa Killian [01:32:05] I got married again.

John Dehlin [01:32:07] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:32:09] I met my second husband and. I had a real spiritual problem because he was a non member, and yet he was a better person than my ex husband member had been, at least to me.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] How'd you meet him?

Louisa Killian [01:32:30] I was.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] If you want to say.

Louisa Killian [01:32:31] Yeah, no, I met him at the U. I was stage managing a dance show and he worked at the theater there and he was running sound. So we met there and started dating. And initially I thought, oh, well, this will be fun. But he's not a member. And my patriarchal blessing says Bruce would hold her, so there's no way. And then we fell in love, and we're dating while I was teaching in Provo.

John Dehlin [01:32:57] Okay.

Louisa Killian [01:32:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] So while you were BYU faculty, you decided to marry your husband?

Louisa Killian [01:33:03] Yeah. He began investigating the church again. So there was maybe hope that we would get married in the temple. But I didn't want him to do it for me, which is really hard to separate. I wanted him to, you know, explore it for himself.

Louisa Killian [01:33:24] I had to get my ceiling annulled for my previous husband. So that was interesting, having to talk to a guy on the phone about getting it annulled and getting the first presidency to sign off of it. But eventually I decided to get married, and we did it during the pandemic. We had both been married before, had a big wedding, so we decided to elope in the mountains. And because it was the pandemic, we couldn't really invite his mom or anybody. They live farther away. So we ended up just doing a short little ceremony with the two of us. My bishop officiated, and it was really beautiful.

Louisa Killian [01:33:58] And I went forward kind of in faith, of like, well, maybe he'll join the church after we get buried. But that was a long process of trying to decide whether to marry him.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] Did he tell you why he didn't want to get baptized?

Louisa Killian [01:34:12] He had been baptized when he was younger.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Oh, okay.

Louisa Killian [01:34:16] Shocker. But, yeah, but he had been, I guess, less active for most of his life.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] And at some point he wasn't a member anymore.

Louisa Killian [01:34:23] Yeah, yeah. For most of his life he wasn't. And then he ended up getting the priesthood while we were dating. So he was kind of testing things out. He had a lot of questions about the word of wisdom about priesthood.

Louisa Killian [01:34:35] That was interesting, seeing it from his eyes, because when he got through priesthood, he's like, okay, that was interesting. I didn't really feel anything. I thought I would feel something where he noticed, okay, I've been off coffee and alcohol for a long time. I don't really notice any different. And I kind of miss those moments where I would drink a little whiskey while camping. Those helped me feel closer, kind of to God and nature.

Louisa Killian [01:34:56] So, yeah, so he kind of tested the Mormon thing, and some things he really liked. He discovered a closer relationship to Jesus, but he was in the arts as well, technical arts, and had many LGBTQ friends and associations, had a big problem with the church in that respect and of women's rights.

Louisa Killian [01:35:20] So all things that I agreed with were reasons that he struggled with the church, and he wasn't sure about giving tithing to the institution as well. So the reasons he wasn't in the church, I understood and also supported as a believing Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:35:33] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:35:34] But I had never really been challenged too much myself on that.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Yeah.

Second Marriage and Growing Doubts

Margi Dehlin [01:35:39] I'm curious if I asked you the same questions that I asked about your ex husband this time around? Like, what you noticed.

Louisa Killian [01:35:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:51] About. Is it. What's your husband's name?

Louisa Killian [01:35:53] Joe.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:53] Joe. So what were some things that, like, stood out to you about Joe having had the experience that you had had with your. Was there. Do you remember kind of meeting him and what really meant a lot to you or stood out to you?

Louisa Killian [01:36:10] Yeah. With my first husband, I was immediately smitten, just fell. With Joe, I wasn't immediately head over heels, and it took me a little while to get in, which I think was more healthy this time around. I didn't trust words as much.

Louisa Killian [01:36:26] So my ex husband was really great at writing beautiful things and saying beautiful things, but the actions didn't reflect that. And with Joe, I was really interested in his actions, and I saw the types of friends he had, and I saw what he would do for other people. And a word that I felt in my previous marriage was disposable.

Louisa Killian [01:36:48] And in this relationship, I felt equal and supported. And he was genuinely kind and loving and would come and take care of me. And it was weird, but I found out what empathy was from a spirit partner. For some reason, in my last, in my first marriage, there was a lack of empathy, and there were moments when he would hurt me and not feel any remorse.

Louisa Killian [01:37:24] And with Joe, I suddenly felt kindness, empathy, remorse, all those kind of normal human responses. He was also very witty and intelligent, and I really loved his Clever phrases. We had a lot of similar interests and fun adventuring together. And intellectually, I felt much more supported as an equal, both through conversation and emotionally.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:55] Yeah. And if you were going to say, you know, so this time with Joe, what, what qualities, what values, what things you were kind of looking for to build a relationship, having had. Now your, what did that look like? Like your other list was like, you know, you know, we should hold it. Yeah, that's right. And went to what, what did it look like? Your ideas or, you know, things that kind of. Yeah. Stood out to you, that you wanted, that were important to you.

Louisa Killian [01:38:32] Well, now I knew that you can be a priesthood holder, you can work at the temple and you can say all the right things and you can be lying about that. So you can have the appearance of checking all the boxes but not be a very good person underneath. I mean, I don't know how else to say that. I know we shouldn't black and white people, but to me it was, you know, the outward facade of righteousness and inwardly not so much. So honesty was huge. Honesty was huge because I had big trust issues after what had happened. Honesty, kindness, for sure. Being able to recognize their own mistakes and ask for forgiveness, how we worked through problems, being able to talk through things, bringing up conflict, caring. Those were like the really big ones. Responsibility, being able to take responsibility for things.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:33] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] I've say that one of them saddest types of stories I hear is when a Mormon finds their true love, finds their human or someone that they really feel like they're going to vibe with, and they end that relationship because it's not an active, believing member, and then they go on to marry someone who ends up being either, at best not a good fit, at worst, a complete jerk. And it's just this Mormon bias we have that you got to marry within the faith and that somehow membership in the church and even a return missionary status is. Makes you automatically a better partner than anyone else.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] When the truth is there's so many amazing humans out there and, and it's, and sometimes it's hard to find a really good fit. So when you find it, you want, you want to, you want to feel like people will seize it. But then when they let that go and then they marry a Mormon and then the marriage is flailing, how many times do they then reconnect either during or after that bad marriage? It's just tragic, you know?

Louisa Killian [01:40:46] Yeah. And in this instance, people could maybe blow it off and say, well, culturally you shouldn't have judged people. I was going off of my patriarchal blessing. The church told me who to marry. So in this instance, I feel like if I hadn't had that blessing that was as explicit, maybe I would have been more forgiving and like, well, you're not member, but you're a wonderful person. And I was not in a happy place. But because my patriarchal blessing said it so explicitly, I was so tormented by that. So in this instance, it was the church that told me exactly who to marry and I believed in that.

Louisa Killian [01:41:19] It wasn't something culturally of like, well, you're not going to be a good person or a good priesthood holder. I mean, was so sad that I had to learn healthy behavior from a non Mormon spirit. Like, he wasn't my spouse yet.

Louisa Killian [01:41:37] But like, the fact that I hadn't experienced that I felt was so sad. I really felt like at 21, I was thrown into a. I don't know, I chose to be in a situation where I was primed for maybe some abuse, I guess. Anyway, it was really sad to me when I started dating Joe and how happy I was and noticing like, oh, you care about that? That, or oh, the way that you're showing kindness and love to me, I haven't experienced that. That brought me to tears a few times and that to me is sad. That's a loss.

John Dehlin [01:42:15] It's a loss and it's amazing you

Louisa Killian [01:42:19] found Joe so amazing and didn't have kids.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, nice job, Joe. Keep it up. Keep up the good work. So was that a beginning of a crack in your testimony, marrying Joe, but being at BYU and trying to navigate the dissonance of being married to a gentile, so to speak, and butcher at BYU or not?

Louisa Killian [01:42:45] Yeah, of course. Yeah. Because I have this plan from God and it's not playing out the way that they told me or the way that it says it should go marry a priesthood holder and have sons and daughters come to your family. That wasn't coming true. So. But I'm trying to do all I'm supposed to. And I remember thinking, God, why would you let me fall in love with somebody? All I want is to be loved and cared for. I haven't done anything wrong. Why would I reject this wonderful person? Because he doesn't check all the boxes, which I don't think are important anyway. So, yeah, there was this real dissonance between like, God, I'm really trying to be obedient, but I love this man a lot and this doesn't feel right.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:26] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:43:26] To Reject him for things that I don't think are important. And I'm not saying that priesthood wasn't important, but the check boxes weren't important. The. The. The meat of the priesthood, the ideas of the priesthood, most of those are important to me. Like, that's what it should be about.

Faith Crisis Begins While Teaching at BYU

John Dehlin [01:43:45] So tell us how your. Your faith began to deteriorate while you were BYU faculty.

Louisa Killian [01:43:52] I began watching. So since my husband, I had watched a lot of documentaries about different systems of influence. I would watch some serial killer stuff, which was a big, you know, following right now, kind of about lack of empathy, personalities to kind of dissect what I had been through.

Louisa Killian [01:44:16] And during that time, I fell upon Scientology. So I'm watching a Scientology documentary, Leah Remini, and I started seeing some similarities between the Church of Scientology and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And that was scary to me because I had already been lied to by a spouse, and I didn't want to be lied to by an institution.

Louisa Killian [01:44:47] So I really wanted to make sure that whatever institution I was following had good intentions. So I noticed similarities in the structure of having a founder who everyone kind of revered in the church. And I was always taught that Joseph Smith had flaws, so I was okay with that. But I did sense the soul, whole kind of worship, personality, so that was one. And then also the structure of the church, the secrets of the church, the fact that we didn't release where the funds were going, to some monetary things, all those things, I started to go, wait a minute, is that in my church, patriarchy?

Louisa Killian [01:45:31] A little bit started to come out. That word. I had learned it in grad school, which is funny. When I start confronting patriarchy and racism, all those things that didn't exist in the Mormon bubble in Rexburg, that was the past. So those stuff started cling me in.

John Dehlin [01:45:49] But then as your faith starts to erode, it's probably constantly in the back of your mind that this is your job we're talking about here. You love your job, you need your job. And so what do you do with the tension of wanting and needing and loving your job and watching your faith slip away, knowing that at some point those things might come to a head?

Louisa Killian [01:46:14] Oh, they came to a head sooner than I wanted because I'd seen that documentary. Stuff had started clicking in my brain. I started realizing that I had never tested anything. I've always worn my garments. I've always followed the word of wisdom. Never had alcohol.

Louisa Killian [01:46:34] I tried, like, sips of coffee. You know, I'd always followed the rules. So I thought, well, maybe I will test a little bit. And I should preface this too. So I realized that there's the intellectual distancing from the church that was happening with Scientology.

Louisa Killian [01:46:52] The spiritual distancing happened because that whole year prior, I had been reading Come Follow Me and I'd been reading scriptures and writing down notes. And scriptures were always hard for me growing up because I never understood context. And as an English person, a literature person, I was like, okay, scriptures are a thing. But I'm not quite sure how to interpret all of this because I want to know the background. So that year I really focused on studying the scriptures and I was praying to know if the church was true, because I was deciding to marry this guy.

Louisa Killian [01:47:25] And I really needed to know if the church is true, because if it was and my patriarchal blessing was true, then I shouldn't get married to Joe. So while I'm doing this spiritual journey, that whole year at the end of the Book of Mormon, I prayed to know if it were true again. And I had prayed earlier when I was a child or a teenager, but I sort of didn't get a huge answer. And then I thought, well, that's because you already know, and I'm just gonna keep going off good feelings.

Louisa Killian [01:47:53] So now I prayed after doing all that work and after being really sincere, because I wanted to do what God wanted me to do. And I didn't receive an answer. And I felt so betrayed by God because I had been in a marriage with a priesthood holder who had abused me in different ways. And I will say that with confidence.

Louisa Killian [01:48:15] I had tried to follow the prescribed things I had given my life. I had stayed in the gospel through all of that. And now I meet a non member. I really want to know if this church is true. And I don't need much. I just need a little feeling to keep me going. I'd studied that whole year. I'd written down questions. I'm sacrificing part of my independence as a woman, and I didn't get anything. So that to me was the big spiritual concave. And then it was logically Scientology and what is the church doing as an institution? Those were two parts. I don't know if I got away from your question.

John Dehlin [01:48:53] No. So you. So you try to get an answer, you don't get an answer.

Louisa Killian [01:48:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] And then you're. And you decide that there are too many uncomfortable parallels between Mormonism and Scientology and other high demand religions. So then I imagine you started thinking, well, maybe this church isn't true, but there's this quote from Upton Sinclair from the book the Jungle that says it's. It's impossible to get a man to see a point of view when his livelihood depends on not seeing it there. There would be a lot of people who are BYU professors who would just say, up, I'm gonna put that back in the bottle. I'm. I'm not gonna let that gene out of the bottle. I'm gonna turn it off, I'm gonna pack it down, and I'm not even going to allow my brain to go there.

John Dehlin [01:49:42] So that's. One scenario is just to turn it off, pack it down. Another scenario is, okay, I don't. Okay, I'll let myself go there. I don't believe anymore, but I'm just going to hide. I'm just going to hide and lie and just fake it because it's not number one. It's not fair for them to expect me to not have my beliefs change. But also, I want to need my job.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] So option one, door number one is turn it off and pack it down and. And pretend you never doubted. Door number two is fake it and lie. And then, then there might be door number three. So how did it. How was that process for you?

Louisa Killian [01:50:23] Yeah, yeah. So face stuff. I decided to try out. Maybe not wearing garments, maybe not paying my tithing, some of those things. I get a call from my bishop. So, yeah, this is where decision time comes. This is during the pandemic. So I haven't been to the temple in a while because they've been closed.

Louisa Killian [01:50:41] My faith crisis hits. I'm really concerned about being misled by this church. My bishop calls and said my endorsement needs to be renewed. I live in Salt Lake now with Joe. My bishop doesn't normally take care of these. He doesn't live in Provo, so he's not sure how to fill this out.

Louisa Killian [01:50:59] He knows that I've been having some faith questions because he was calling me to a calling in the primary presidency. And I was honest with him and said, I'm having trouble with the church, and I'm not sure if I should be in this calling if I'm having questions. So he knew I was struggling, so he called me and said, how do you want me to fill this out?

Louisa Killian [01:51:18] I know your recommend has just expired. So this was kind of a perfect storm where my faith crisis started. I hadn't decided if the church wasn't true or not or if I, you know, was stepping in or out. I was still going to church. All these things. I was just testing things and Then I get a call from my bishop. And that was the moment where I realized, oh, my job's on the line.

Louisa Killian [01:51:40] And I remember being so terrified. And he called, when he called and said, how do you want me to proceed? I haven't seen this before. And I think it asked just one question. It was like, do they have a temple recommend? It was very sparse.

Louisa Killian [01:51:55] And I said in that phone call, I think that I wasn't sure, but we were going to set up a time to meet. I hang up with him and I just ball because I'm like, I love my students, I love my job, this is my income. Luckily I got married. If I was single, this would be even bigger when I was supporting myself with those two jobs.

Louisa Killian [01:52:14] But I realized that my job was on the line in that moment. And it was at the beginning of my faith crisis, not near the end, not when I have made any kind of decision. So I was just terrified.

Navigating Authenticity Versus Institutional Loyalty

John Dehlin [01:52:27] So why not door number one? Just turn it off and pack it down and then I'll ask you about door number two.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:31] Haha.

Louisa Killian [01:52:32] I had packed emotions down my whole life. I knew that didn't work. I will say this was. I mean, if you've ever been through a faith crisis, everything around you is crumbling. And because this was tied to my previous marriage, I had been taken advantage of by another human.

Louisa Killian [01:52:51] This was, this was scary to me. I don't know how to explain. Was scary to me to feel like I was being taken advantage of. Also, I don't lie. That's a bold statement. I say white lies like everybody else. But for me as a person, my whole existence in the church was always to be genuine and honest.

Louisa Killian [01:53:21] In classes, I would try to say what I honestly felt. I'd get down to the real things. In Sunday school, I'd be like, that's great, but what about, what about the real issues? Let's get real here. Let's not deal with the perfectionist fluffy stuff. And I was raised that way, so my relationship with the church was an honest one.

Louisa Killian [01:53:39] And I couldn't imagine living my life pretending to be something I wasn't, or relying on temple recommend questions like my husband had done. And I wasn't going to compromise my integrity for a church school. So I just, I don't think I can live inauthentically. I don't think that's built into my DNA.

Louisa Killian [01:54:05] I've tried to live that way my whole life and I've tried to absolutely not do it based on my previous experience with my ex not being authentic at all. Hopefully that's not too braggy, but no.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Yeah. And so the option door number two of like, faking it wasn't. I guess your, your commitment to honesty didn't allow that either.

Louisa Killian [01:54:30] No. My preference would have been for me to take my spiritual journey on my own because it's private and personal and keep teaching at BYU and keep building testimonies and things that I believe in, principles of the gospel. I still do and work out my stuff with Joseph Smith church history and current church events on my own. But I was forced to bring that into the light with this phone call.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Yeah. And what do you make of the fact that there are probably hundreds of BYU professors that do choose doors number one or two? I. I'm sure they would take umbrage at being characterized as being liars or dishonest or whatever. I guess it's not none of our jobs to judge, so maybe it's just a bad question. But I'm, I'm totally aware that, that, that there are many, many, many who are. And not by choice of their own. It's like a bad situation. They're just forced to either turn it off or hide or lie because the consequences are too great, I guess. I guess I want to almost withdraw that question because it's not ours to judge.

Louisa Killian [01:55:33] Oh, yeah. But I like it because in my opinion, rarely do people lie, I think, out of malicious intent. I think rarely. There are exceptions, I think, where people lie like my ex husband, just because they like deceiving people for whatever reason.

Louisa Killian [01:55:51] I don't think many people can live that way. I think because religion is sticky and because there are many things you can go back and forth again. You can choose to be progressive on, you can choose to be nuanced on. People can choose to stay for certain reasons that they want to and support those reasons.

Louisa Killian [01:56:10] And it's hard because I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe that a lot of people are outright liars. I think we have to live authentically in whatever way we can. So they'll make excuses for certain things they don't agree with or they will, in a sense, build where they can. So I know a lot of professors there who don't agree with everything that the church does but build and lift in the things that they do agree with and do it in a beautiful way. And they've decided that they can stay in the church and do that. Some people step away from the church because they can't be in the church anymore because it doesn't reflect their beliefs or values.

Louisa Killian [01:56:51] My opinion is there's a lot of gray area people at BYU and they can get away with that as long as they hold a temple recommend. And to me, it's all about how you view those recommend questions. I was not at a place of spiritual nuance or maturity to be like, I'm going to say yes because of all these exceptions that I've made in my head. And I feel good about that. For me, it meant literally, because I was grown and taught that those questions were literal. So that's what honesty meant to me in that moment. And I don't necessarily judge people who nuance, but at the same time, I think there is something really, really courageous about people who, they take care of their family with that income and they choose to stand up for what they believe.

Louisa Killian [01:57:45] Because I thankfully was not employed full time and was not taking care of a family with the income. So in a sense I could afford to give away some adjunct even though it was hard. I get why people do it.

John Dehlin [01:58:00] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. If you're, if you need the health insurance, especially if you joined byu, not, not having a faith crisis, but you have it while you're there and then you need the job or you realize there are a lot of people that won't hire me because I'm at byu and then I may need the insurance or I may need the income or for whatever reason, there's probably a lot of people that just feel trapped.

Louisa Killian [01:58:28] And I think it comes down to how you view the temple recommend questions. That's what it comes down to. To keep your job. If you think that the system is stupid in a sense, by check marking things and the prophets are going to catch up to you eventually. Answer whatever you want in the questions. In a sense, Mormonism created me as it's. The good things that Mormonism gave me are giving me the strength to not lie or to, I don't know, not disregard that, if that makes sense. Church taught me to have integrity, so I'm not gonna nuance the questions.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:59:05] If that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:59:06] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:59:07] I know what they mean and I'm going to say what I know they are. I'm not going to come up with my own answer.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:59:12] But whatever. They'll probably change in five years.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] Yeah, they do. So you decided to be honest with your bishop about your doubts, even if it meant putting your job in jeopardy.

Louisa Killian [01:59:27] Yeah. And I, I was trying to figure out too, if the church was what it claimed to be. So I was curious. Yeah, I was curious if there was help for me. And I didn't know if I would lose my job. I didn't know how the process went. Yeah, there were a lot of unknowns.

John Dehlin [01:59:44] Yeah. So how'd that go?

Louisa Killian [01:59:47] I worked with my bishop. He. He said that BYU would be jerks to let me go initially, and I laughed, but also was like, uh, they might, um. He didn't feel good about giving me recommend, and I supported that because I didn't know what my answers were to all the questions. I knew I believed in God and Jesus, but I had trouble with some of the institution stuff, and I was trying to figure that out. Also, church history. I was finding more out about church history, and polygamy meant a lot more to me because I. I had been in a relationship that wasn't good, and polygamy to me, seemed like something God shouldn't ask of me.

Louisa Killian [02:00:29] So there was that. So I'm struggling with those questions, but I. I don't not like everything about the church. I'm still an active member regardless. He didn't feel good about giving me one, and I didn't feel good about having it.

Louisa Killian [02:00:44] So I worked with him on how to respond via email to the university. Eventually, it got to a point where he asked for a number he could call to talk to a real person because he wanted to advocate for me. He didn't think I should lose my job.

Louisa Killian [02:00:58] So he calls the university, has a conversation with somebody from the endorsement office, which I believe is separate from the honor code office. These are two different things. Calls the endorsement office, talks to the person on the phone. They're not able to answer his concern. So he's passed up to a supervisor, and basically he's just asking, like, what about the word on the temple recommend questions? You know, what if they're trying. What if they have questions? You know, how can I spin this, basically, so she can get a recommend? And the answer that he was given by the supervisor was that she is now considered telestial, not celestial.

Louisa Killian [02:01:32] And we do this for the safety of the students. And he relayed this to me in a. In a meeting we had later. He said, this is what they told me. He brought out scriptures. Joe was with me in that meeting, and he said, these are the scriptures they gave me. You are considered, you know, less than.

Louisa Killian [02:01:49] And he didn't say, you are considered less than, but that's what I felt as he told me, you are right, celestial or terrestrial. And I just cried. I realized that there was not a place for me to have a faith crisis at byu.

Louisa Killian [02:02:06] I had reached out to HR on my own and asked about circumstances. I knew that non members taught there, and I learned that non members are allowed to teach there if they've never been baptized into the church. But if you've ever been baptized in the church in your life, even if you are baptized, that have been Catholic all your life, you can't teach at byu.

Louisa Killian [02:02:29] And I was desperately looking for resources to help me. I wasn't out of the church. I was struggling to decide what this church was. And I was given 90 days to decide if I was going to answer affirmatively to the temple, recommend questions to keep my job. And it was. It felt very, very manipulative.

Louisa Killian [02:02:55] And from that point on, the bishop kind of was like, well, this is the policy. It went from being kind of caring and advocating for me to be like, this is our answer. And that told me a lot about how BYU feels about students and teachers who have doubts. Right.

John Dehlin [02:03:17] I mean, I guess we don't know his heart, but in my kind of suspicious mind is like, was he extra kind and warm at the beginning, almost to make you feel comfortable disclosing so that then you disclose and then the warmness goes away?

Louisa Killian [02:03:32] No, he wasn't that kind of a guy. He was just a good Salt Lake bishop who just wants to go to church and was thrown into this situation. Yeah. No, I didn't get the sense. Any of that, but.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] But the warmth went away, you're saying.

Louisa Killian [02:03:45] Yeah, because he had to make a decision. Am I going to continue to empathize with this person or am I going to support the church? Which was BYU's policy in my mind. He chose to support the church, so he had to distance himself emotionally from me a little bit because he can't empathize with me. Now, here's the scripture, and maybe he's figuring it out in his own head.

John Dehlin [02:04:04] But he could have flipped his tie.

Louisa Killian [02:04:07] He could have flipped his tie.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:04:09] Or he could have been like, well, this isn't fair. BYU is horrible. But. But not his temperament.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:04:15] Yeah. And if I would have been in a college, Warden Provo, maybe I would have had a bishop like that who was a little more progressive. You hear about that, right? Like some teachers or students having a bishop who's like, those are fine questions. I'm going to approve you. But because he had never done this before, he didn't know, and I didn't know how to handle it.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Oh, there's absolutely. And not just in a student ward, but you could go to parts of Salt Lake or Park City or even parts of Provo. If your professor, if your bishop happens to be an intellectual or a liberal Mormon, where you would get a bishop that would be like, hey, as long as you're doing good there, I want you there. You know what I mean? I've had friends called into bishoprics as non believers and they're told, I want you in the bishopric because you're a non believer. So I mean, there's this idea of bishop roulette where absolutely there are. There are professors at the BYU's who are non believers because they have bishops who protect them.

Louisa Killian [02:05:14] Yeah. And I could have protected myself.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:05:17] But I just wanted to be honest. And why is God punishing me for being honest again?

John Dehlin [02:05:21] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:05:22] When my husband. Ex husband. Was dishonest and got up the ranks,

John Dehlin [02:05:27] especially because dance, it's not like you're teaching evolution or like, you know, dance. You're just. You're not going to be having.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:34] To deal with topics that might challenge the faith directly of students.

Louisa Killian [02:05:37] I'm guessing I'm supposed to build testimony. And I do do that. My class, Spirituality, Love, Kindness, Community. We bring up quotes in the lecture classes from prophets. I can do that. I can support those good things. I'm not teaching about Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] Fanny Alger.

Louisa Killian [02:05:53] No.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] Kinderhook plates.

Louisa Killian [02:05:55] No.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Margi Dehlin [02:06:00] yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Well, so how did it. How did that end?

Louisa Killian [02:06:07] I felt manipulated by the university for the 90 days, and I found it impossible to make. To have an honest journey for my faith during that time because I just felt like this was hanging over my head. And the severity of the action they took of holding like, well, you're telestial. You're not good enough, gave a sour taste in my mouth. And so I was like, well, then I.

Louisa Killian [02:06:32] It felt like going back to an abuser, which is weird, but that's what it felt like. It felt like, you're not doing what we told you to do. We're not offering you support because you're in a deep, dark place. Which, by the way, we've caused these problems.

Louisa Killian [02:06:46] So you have 90 days to give us the answers we want. Otherwise you're gone. That didn't feel respectful for me as a teacher, a person. They didn't reach out to my dance department. My dance department hired me as long as they could. They were super supportive. They wanted me there. They would have advocated for me if asked.

Louisa Killian [02:07:03] A few of them, you know, gave their sympathy to me. So they didn't judge me, but the institution absolutely did. And that just gave that I couldn't work for them. And I knew I couldn't resolve that kind of pressure within 90 days, so I stepped away and I lost my job.

John Dehlin [02:07:26] She didn't let him make him fire you.

Louisa Killian [02:07:29] I did. What they do because I'm adjunct is they don't renew my contract.

John Dehlin [02:07:33] Right.

Louisa Killian [02:07:35] So I would have made them fire me if I worked full time, but no, they just don't renew your contract. So.

John Dehlin [02:07:45] So by. By not getting bishop approval, the bishop informs them, and all of a sudden, you just don't get the call or you don't get the email or the letter.

Louisa Killian [02:07:54] Yeah, I have a specific time I could work, and I worked till the very end, and then they're not allowed to hire me. HR stops the process because I don't have that temple recommend box checked. And I didn't sin. I didn't do anything wrong. I just was testing and questioning my faith. That's all I did.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:08:16] Well, this is. This is like. This is a harsh perspective, but in some sense, you committed the worst sin. From the church's perspective, apostasy is worse than probably almost any sin.

Louisa Killian [02:08:29] Then they need to stop teaching from the pulpit that they love people who step away or have questions. If that is the case, they need to not teach that over the pulpit because we're getting mixed messages. I'm taught from Dieter out that I'm okay to have questions in doubt and that it's a part of life. But the policies. Yeah. Cut you off as soon as they find out you have any chance of being an apostate. Because I didn't feel like an apostate. I felt like a member who was hit over the head with all these questions at the time.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:58] Yeah, that's. That's the thing is, on some level, what I'm hearing from you is you hadn't decided yet. You didn't have a chance to actually have the process. The process was interrupted with, like, disciplinary action on. On some level. Right. So your point about the apostasy thing would make sense if you had to, to my mind, actually made a conclusion of some sort or an assertion of some sort. But what you're saying is you were just basically saying, I'm struggling. I'm having questions. Where can I go? Where can I have support? What do I do? Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:09:39] And my bishop, he didn't want to answer my questions about church history. I mean, if anything, he would be the one I would counsel with to resolve some of these issues. He didn't want to go into my questions or doubts. I brought them once I'm like, here are the things I'm struggling with on an email. And I just brought them to the meeting just in case they would come up if you wanted to help me. We never had discussion about them. He just knew I was struggling. I mean, who else am. My non member husband.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:06] Yeah. Where do you go?

Louisa Killian [02:10:07] Where did I go? And it's scary. Anybody who's been through a faith crisis, everything crumbles.

Teaching Through Crisis and Leaving BYU

Margi Dehlin [02:10:14] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Louisa Killian [02:10:15] Yeah, it's okay. It could have been worse. I could have been a student in my mind.

John Dehlin [02:10:22] Well, there are hundreds of BYU faculty right now going through the dilemmas that you went through.

Louisa Killian [02:10:27] How long ago that was? 2021 was the beginning of my faith crisis.

John Dehlin [02:10:34] Last year.

Louisa Killian [02:10:34] Year, yes. January.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:35] Recent. That is so. Wow.

Louisa Killian [02:10:39] Yeah. It was a perfect storm too. Right. Like where temple recommend expired just as something starting. All of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:50] Yeah. The timing. The timing part.

Louisa Killian [02:10:53] Yeah. And my family wasn't going to support me in it completely. That's the sad thing, too.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] Any your mom or.

Louisa Killian [02:10:59] Yeah, like my family. I mean, if you're having a faith crisis, they also don't want to touch that subject as much.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:06] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:11:07] So.

John Dehlin [02:11:10] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:11:11] I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] Yeah. So the bishops weren't equipped to help you. Your family's not equipped to help you. So maybe just talk about what it was like to lose your job for no fault of your own, really. For just learning the truth.

Louisa Killian [02:11:26] I was just having flashbacks to my first marriage again, my divorce. Like, all I'm trying to do is what's right, and yet I keep being punished for trying to do what's right. And I'm not saying I'm a saint and I always do what's right, but I'm really concerned with my personality, you know, doing the right thing. Blessings. Obedience brings blessings. And yet the more I try to do what's right and be honest and all that I'm getting punished for. I remember in my research looking at different things and I was looking at fair Mormon videos.

Louisa Killian [02:11:59] There was one where they were interviewing someone who had gone through a faith crisis. I believe it was one of the Kwaku videos they were interviewing this man who had gone through a face crisis, left the church, and then he had this miraculous experience where missionaries showed up at his door and certain things fell in line to where he had to move to Utah and God was showing him all these signs to move back to Utah. And now he's a part of the church and he's in full fellowship. And everything happened. And I went in my shower and I bawled, and I just lost it. Why doesn't God give me anything? And he's given this man on this video all these signs that God is there for him.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:40] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:12:41] And so I was just. I was trying to do what was right, and I was trying to do all the things I had told. Pray, read your scriptures, ask people. And honesty was right to me. And I had been honest in church my whole life about my struggles. I'd been honest with my struggles and my testimony in church. I'd brought it up in church. Lesson I'm struggling with the Book of Mormon. I prayed, and it didn't come true. What can I do? I felt like a convert, and yet, because I had been associated with the organization and in some sense was going back to being a convert because I was questioning, I was rejected.

Louisa Killian [02:13:16] And if I had gone to BYU and said, I've never been a part of the church and I'm struggling and I'm learning things about your faith, I would have been welcomed with open arms. So that's just. It's just so hard to want to do the right thing and yet to be penalized. I never wanted to hurt my students. That hurt me when they said, for the safety of the students, I love my students, and I never wanted to hurt anyone.

Louisa Killian [02:13:40] I want an atmosphere in my class where everybody feels comfortable to share. And, you know, I would ask preferred pronouns so other people felt comfortable. So why was I being penalized for honestly sharing that I hurt and that I struggled with my testimony after all I had sacrificed and all the abuse that I had been through in my first marriage and all the tithing I had paid and all the callings I've been a part of.

Louisa Killian [02:14:15] But 90 days to decide otherwise, you lose your job because you're not good enough. You're not good enough because you loved people and you just want to search what's true for you and not be hurt anymore?

John Dehlin [02:14:42] And it's particularly serious because it's your career.

Louisa Killian [02:14:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] And like, it's a. It's a. It's a little. It's. It's. It's also severe for a student, a BYU student that goes to BYU believing. But then one or two or three years into their degree, they lose their faith. They face potentially getting expelled and maybe even having to redo one or two years. There's the time and the expense and the inconvenience that's really serious, maybe for a faculty member that gave up other options that probably, like I said before, limits their future career options just by going to a school like BYU, when there's a lot of problems with BYU's reputation these days, it just seems so serious that they would make decisions that would impact someone's career so significantly without providing a year or two or job finding support or something that would show sensitivity to the seriousness of the situation that they're putting people in.

Louisa Killian [02:15:50] Yeah, I mean, at this point I'm not teaching at Snow College. I had moved to Snot Lake. That's too far to drive. This was my only university position and I still have not had another university position since that time. I still don't have a job. That was something people told me a lot. They said, well, go find another job. Just go find a job. It's the pandemic. I'm in the arts, I'm in dance. It's hard anyway. Yeah. And I. And I mean, that's part of it. That's part of the struggle and I don't regret that and I don't want to go when that's me. Because, yeah, people could give up their full time work. Students are much more harmed than I was. But yeah, I still don't have another university job and I loved it so.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Well, this has been really powerful and beautiful and I think it's a good place to say we'll end part one and what we're going to do is come right back for part two, which is going to be your reconstruction. How you've grieved, how you've processed your grieving, your healing, how you've reshaped your beliefs, your worldview, your identity, your life, your marriage, your mental health. And maybe Margi will kind of step in and take a bit more of the lead for part two. Is that all right, Margi? Yeah. Any final thing you want to say for this episode?

Louisa Killian [02:17:13] You got me to cry. Good work. We did it.

John Dehlin [02:17:17] Good job, Margi. Way to make her cry. Just kidding.

Louisa Killian [02:17:21] No, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] Okay, well, thank you for being willing to share something so difficult when this story just needs to be told. Because it's telling these stories that's going to help make it so. The church n byu, hopefully someday makes it easier for people who are or will be in the shoes that you were in.

Louisa Killian [02:17:45] Yeah. And I guess if I were to tell anybody who was in those shoes right now, student or teacher, I don't judge you either way. Your decision. And that's what the university should have told me.

John Dehlin [02:17:56] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:17:57] In those moments of tenderness, of deciding your faith is, I don't judge you either way. Whether you choose to stay or leave.

John Dehlin [02:18:04] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:18:05] And that you need that freedom to make that decision.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:07] Yeah. I'm just gonna say it's really, really clear just listening to you and, you know, feeling you, that what you were offering, that thing, the safety, the really seeing people, valuing people, this sense of openness, of care, you know, you deserved it. You deserved to receive what you gave. Thank you to so many.

Louisa Killian [02:18:40] That's all I wanted to do was care for people. That's why I teach.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:43] I totally feel that from you.

Louisa Killian [02:18:44] Just want to love people.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:46] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:18:49] Yeah. And if they just said, hey, stay on for a year, you know, please don't share your doubts of the students, and then we'll either give you some time to figure things out, or we'll support you with our human resources to find a replacement job and give you great recommendations. Like, wouldn't. Wouldn't that have been compassionate?

Louisa Killian [02:19:11] That would have been amazing. Even if I had a conversation with somebody who said, yeah, here's what we expect for you as a teacher, and as long as you uphold that, you're great. I would have done anything.

John Dehlin [02:19:21] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:19:21] Almost anything.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] So that's our. That's our constructive recommendation. BYU and Mormon Church is do that for. For these people. At least give them a Runway for either reconciliation or transition.

Louisa Killian [02:19:37] Yeah. If you're gonna make my stuff personal, treat me with respective as a person, not as a checkpoint.

John Dehlin [02:19:45] Yeah. All right. Well, Margi, thanks for co hosting this episode and producing it and making it happen.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:52] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:53] Thank you, Louisa.

John Dehlin [02:19:55] Yeah. Louisa, thank you.

Louisa Killian [02:19:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:19:57] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [02:19:58] I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] And don't go away. Come right back for part two of this interview with Louisa Killian. This is kind of a Thrive themed episode, so we're going to be talking about Margi's favorite part, which is reconstruction. Right. Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:20:11] I love it all.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:13] I love the. The process and how.

John Dehlin [02:20:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:17] How it's kind of part of being alive in many, many ways.

John Dehlin [02:20:21] Yeah, me too.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] All right, Come right back for part two. You. Thanks so much. And we'll see you all again for the next episode. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two: Healing and Rebuilding After Leaving

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1699

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's October 11, 2022 and I am again joined by my brilliant co host, Margi Delin. Hey Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:11] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Thanks for making this episode happen today. We are here in part two of our interview with Louisa Killian. Hey Louisa.

Louisa Killian [00:00:19] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Welcome back.

Louisa Killian [00:00:20] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] How was your break? Good.

Louisa Killian [00:00:22] I'm trying to keep my voice up. If you haven't noticed, I have a slight cold, so I say losing my voice.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] I saw you doing some dancing exercises to like relax and stretch.

Louisa Killian [00:00:31] Oh yes. That's how I got through childbirth too.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So we just did a good two and a half hours with Louisa for part one of her interview where we talked about her being raised in the church in Rexburg, Idaho. Primarily her, you know, being a dancer, an artist, a drummer, getting married very young, having a husband who ended up a felon, just to be candid. And, and how after a second breach of confidence with infidelity, she divorced him, but at the same time got a master's in dance from the University of Utah and ended up teaching adjunct to BYU and even being interviewed for a full time position by a general authority at byu and how much she loved her time at BYU teaching dance.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And then the episode ended with her getting married a second time to a non active Mormon that beginning her faith crisis during the time of COVID 19 and how that led to her questioning her faith to the point where when it was time to do her bishop's interview, to renew her temple recommend, to renew her position or contract at byu, she wasn't able to answer the questions in the way that Mormon bishop wanted her to. And she wasn't able to renew her Tepal recommend or her ecclesiastical endorsement which meant that BYU did not renew her contract and she lost her job at BYU for just not just losing her faith per se, but just questioning her faith.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] And we ended with her basically saying that she felt like it kind of re traumatized her in many ways from her abusive first marriage. And also she hasn't been able to find a job at a college or university since. And so it had pretty serious job implications. And that's where we left off with part one. And because this is a Thrive series kind of themed episode that Margi's producing, we want to make sure and give time to the second part of a faith crisis which is the rebuilding, the grieving, the rebuilding and the healing and the growth. So that's what this part two is about.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] If you're Interested in healing and growth. Not just drama and trauma, but healing and growth. Margi is here to guide us through part two. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:42] Hey. Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Where should we go? Where should we go from here?

Emotional and Relational Impact of Faith Transition

Margi Dehlin [00:02:46] Well, one, I thought I might start. I'm very curious. Oftentimes when we go through a faith transition, what we find are certain areas are impacted. Like, it's very. And I feel like we almost have a faith life transition merged with you because it was tied to your career. Oftentimes career is part of identity. Like, there are a lot of things going on here. So I just. I was curious to ask you if we're thinking about here, are some of the areas that are oftentimes impacted. Right, Relationships. So that can be family relationships. For some people, it's marital. Their marital relationship is affected identity, how they view themselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:35] What I'm here for, what makes me me. What is my sense of purpose? So identity, grief and loss is something that's. That's greatly affected. We find ourselves in a new terrain of feeling a tremendous amount of reckoning within ourselves with what we thought we knew and what now we're seeing before us and having to actually process that, which is something that, you know, culturally we don't. We don't see being done. You know, there are no. There are no templates really out there oftentimes for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:13] And lastly, kind of this idea of the existential, where do I go when I die? What, you know, what is. Where is the meaning? Anyway? So out of those, I'm kind of curious back at this point in time when you are going through so many transitions all at once, what of those would you say were affected that you were feeling. You were feeling like, wow. Now I'm gonna have to honest on a level, you're. You're looking at, like, the rubble of a lot of these things where you're really being able to see the way I've shown up in. In this tower, this area. It's gonna. I'm gonna have to rebuild. I'm gonna have to start over.

Louisa Killian [00:05:06] Yeah, relationships. Luckily, I was lucky because Joe was trying out the church, but we hadn't been sealed in the temple. It's so funny how to label him. That's really interesting. When John refers to him as, like, less active, that's actually more true.

Louisa Killian [00:05:27] But yeah, there. So my relationships were strong. He was supportive of me no matter what and was going to church with me and was wonderful. And my family was farther enough away. I knew that that would be maybe a struggle, but I didn't anticipate them rejecting me. And I knew that my friends that I was close enough with would keep me. So relationship was solid.

Louisa Killian [00:05:49] Identity was a big one. I remember because, again, I had always sort of looked outside of myself for external validation, and that included God. And it was really interesting reading through my journals again at the time because there were so many instances in my journal where I would write, like, God gave me this today, or I did a thankfulness journal. And I realized that everything in there I was attributing to God doing for me. And so my identity without God was something that I had to unravel.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:21] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:06:21] And then there was one more you said, was the last one existential, kind of the more? Oh, yeah. And that ties into my relationship with God. But, yes, existential, absolutely. Because that was kind of the whole point was, is there an ultimate creator who I. Who affects my life if I don't do the right things, or is there not that? And am I doing the right thing? Right. That's like a theme with me. Am I doing the right thing so that I will be blessed and be a good person according to this spiritual construct? Or does that construct not exist? If that makes sense. Right. Like. Like, what are the rules of the game? Are these things real? Are they not real? What is real, what isn't?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:05] Yes. Yep. That makes perfect sense. And so if we're kind of moving into that, let's just say the rubble place, where all towers are down, you're kind of in that place of grief and loss. How did grief and loss. How did it show up for you in your life, and how did you process it? Like, what did that look like?

Louisa Killian [00:07:35] Yeah. Are you talking, like, the specific faith portion at this point in time?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:41] Yes, though I would say, because faith touches all those areas. See? And then also loss brings up other loss, of course. So just anything that comes to mind that way.

Louisa Killian [00:07:55] Yeah. It's so entangled. Right. Like, you know, I'm thinking back to all the stuff I've talked about so far with the loss of my father, the loss of a marriage, you know, all those pinpoints of grief, and really almost like, culminating in, okay, my faith crisis is happening. It's all these moments of, like, I'm grieving, I'm hurt. I don't feel like it was my fault, but I'm experiencing all this grief that's outside of my control.

Louisa Killian [00:08:21] God is either helping me through it or by just being there or not answering and not giving me what I feel like I want. So that's interesting, because I feel like, these moments of grief are moments where I feel like I'm overcome with a decision that I have to make. And I don't feel like it's fair that I'm in that decision.

Louisa Killian [00:08:45] And I feel like there are all these consequences of what I'm going to choose. Right? Like, there's this prescribed plan that I was supposed to follow, but it's falling apart. But I didn't. I didn't choose to make it fall apart. So, God, what am I supposed to do now?

Louisa Killian [00:09:00] And I almost. I almost feel like it came to a pinnacle with my faith crisis where I felt like God abandoned me. And maybe in my head, too, that was an answer that, like, that church, the church itself wasn't really true or wasn't the right path because God wasn't speaking on the specifics, if that makes sense. It's those moments of grief where I feel out of control. I have to make a decision. And this decision affects so many people. Those are big.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:40] I totally can understand why for you, too, it's so entangled with this question of God, the existential of, like, wait, so could you have done something? Where can you intervene? Like, were you there, but just not. You couldn't intervene or say anything? Like, why? Why did I not feel, like, prompted or a sense of warning? Or, like, let me figure this out. And are you part of this grief process? Are you here? Are you a resource or are you not a resource, you know, or. And I can totally see why that would be so, like, a part of this process for you, given. Given your partic. Your particular story and those moments where you really did, you know, on some level, look for the help, do the things to get the help, and then oftentimes we're left feeling like, where were you? Like, where were you? Because that mattered, you know? Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:10:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:43] So are there any grief practices? Like, when we talk about grief? I think oftentimes there's this tendency to think, you know, you grieve and you're done and you kind of move through. And I think that's not the way it works. I think grief is entangled in love and joy and in daily moments and in living, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:06] But I did want to touch on just if there were any grief practices that emerged for you that have been helpful. I also was curious if you wanted to touch back on, you know, at one point. Let's see, What. What would I do first? Maybe I'll touch here first. Okay. At one point in the interview, you talked about a hole, you know, where your dad once Was and really wanting to kind of fill that. And I'm curious now, with some reflection and kind of years, what that loss feels like for you now and what that hole looks like for you and where you feel him or what you remember.

Louisa Killian [00:11:53] Yeah. When you're so young, when you're like, 15, it's odd because he's not there for a lot of the after adolescence stuff. Right. Like my graduations and my marriages and a lot of the really hard things that I felt like I would have loved to share with.

Louisa Killian [00:12:24] And I've never been very good at really processing the grief anyway. But I feel like I have this habit of what you said not to do, which is to let it build, and then it all comes out at once, I suppose.

Louisa Killian [00:12:52] And I've tried to be better at accepting myself in the vulnerable state which a lot of people have talked about trying to do. Those of us with perfectionist personalities. I remember when I had to. I finally left home and felt all that sadness and didn't want to share it with anybody in college. And I was depressed and not talking to counselors and wanted to handle it on my own. I had to break down and say, I need help. I need to talk to people.

Louisa Killian [00:13:25] I can't do it all on my own. And that was early on where I remember distinctly talking to a roommate, letting her know that I was sad, or being at church and talking about my dad in Sunday school, or not Sunday school in a Relief Society lesson where we talked about sorrow and Christmas. And there were those moments where I let myself show my vulnerability to others and speak it out loud. And those moments were very, very important because it meant admitting that I couldn't handle the grief inside on my own, and that that was okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:02] Yeah. I really, really love that. So I'm hearing, feeling it, naming it, and sharing all on some level, being able to actually speak it. Is that what you're saying?

Louisa Killian [00:14:15] Yes. It's hard for me to admit those things out loud. And I also have that thing in my brain that goes, well, other people have it worse, or I can take care of somebody else. Right. Like. Like I'm not good at being the person receiving help.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:30] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:14:31] I'm good at taking care of other people.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:34] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:14:35] And that is a. It's still a constant. It's still a battle, but I'm much better at recognizing it. And it started with that grieving process of my dad in college, and then again with my thesis work about vulnerability and honesty and having to keep confronting that idea of, you are strong, Louisa, but you Also need to share your brokenness in order to be healthy.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:01] Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's beautiful. Yeah. To be clear, I don't believe in optimizing the grief process. I don't believe in this idea of, like, good way, bad way, or. I think we grieve in ways that are deeply personal.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:23] And we. It is like a survival kind of thing. We grieve the way we grieve and. And there are many, as many ways to grieve as there are people. And it's a relationship that on some level, you know, we. It's an. It's a terrain we get to know for ourselves. You know, it's de. It's very, very individual. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:48] Yeah. Let me just ask if there was anything in your grieving process that emerged that became material for rebuilding. So an example of that that I saw in your story, I feel you can correct me if I'm wrong, was this idea, grief and loss, around kind of your first marriage relationship with trust.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:18] And this idea of being treated as a fully human, a full human that deserved empathy, and that. That was something at one point that you lost and, you know, had to kind of. But then you. You clearly, in the next relationship you had had gleaned that that then was important to you. Honesty, feeling a sense of kindness, feeling a sense of connectedness, emotional connectedness with someone you love. Right. And care.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:53] That was something that emerged out of a place. Right. Of. Do you have anything that comes to your mind? It can be with your faith transition. It can be with identity. It can be in any of the towers. It can be with regard to you rebuilding, you know, insights around career or identity that became some of the building blocks or, you know, the things that you were like. I'm using that. I'm using that in this new life, you know.

Louisa Killian [00:17:29] Yeah. The first thing comes to mind is definitely the difference in relationships. And it's hard to know where it stems from, and maybe it doesn't matter, but I did, yeah, sense that I had this feeling of taking care of everybody, and that sort of led to maybe being. Taking advantage of earlier in my. In my life. And then I later learned to kind of stand up for myself, which is very odd because I can do that with strangers. But with my intimate relationships, it seemed that I was being walked on a little bit, at least in my first marriage.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:16] That so makes sense.

Louisa Killian [00:18:17] It's. It's really. Yeah, it's. It's really crazy. And maybe people have felt this. I didn't notice moments of abuse until after I had left the Marriage and then you look back and you go, oh, that wasn't healthy. Or that wasn't healthy.

Louisa Killian [00:18:38] Moments where I would be hurt and my partner would laugh or those kind of things. Right. Like when you're in pain and the partner who you're married to, who's supposed to take care of you, laughs at you or causes the pain and you don't realize it when you're in it.

Louisa Killian [00:19:01] And mine was more psychological and then there were moments of physical, but then they were okayed by the psychological. So I don't know, I sort of took from that into my next relationship that, oh, that was unhealthy and I need to not make actions are important. I just learned that I said a lot that that actions are important and that some it's kind of boundaries, like learning what boundaries are.

Louisa Killian [00:19:34] You know, you think you have boundaries and then you realize how much you are letting other people take advantage of you and then you go, oh, I really didn't have boundaries. Or it's almost like, oh, this is strange. But being suspicious of a partner, which you're not supposed to do. But there's something about like trusting that everything is okay. And I think Mormonism does this a little bit where it's like everything's fine or there's this perfect plan or as long as you're on the plan, you're safe and you're fine. So everything is good. And then when things go wrong, you justify them.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:05] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:20:05] And I stopped justifying a little bit bad behavior and I noticed in my new partner how he respected my boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:13] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:20:14] And then that became really important. I'm like, oh, yes, you can control yourself or oh, I don't have to be the gatekeeper of whatever it is. Yeah, that was a big learning lesson that transferred over.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:26] Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Well, what is rebuilding? I mean this has all been fairly recent. What are some of the in the rebuilding now process? What have some of the victories been for you personally?

Louisa Killian [00:20:44] I considered myself very lucky because I was able to leave that marriage and the and and honestly BYU kind of unscathed on both ways in a sense. I didn't have children with my previous spouse, which was really great. I was able to start a new no contact, clean cut. You know, I'm still scarred and by my experiences and I have my moments where it still kind of comes back trauma.

Louisa Killian [00:21:17] But I came out of it being able to start again. And at byu I wasn't a full time professor where I was taking care of my whole family with My income and benefits. I was able to step away before I had gotten way entrenched in that system.

Louisa Killian [00:21:33] And there's something to be said for that, that I can come out and I can still be in control of my life. And I consider a victory, too. And this ties back to some other questions you've asked. I am much more. I don't know if it was when I turned 30 or when I started having my faith crisis, but I stopped trying to get the bone like a dog trying to get the bone or trying to catch the car. And I started being like, what's happening now in my life and what can be lovely now? Because I was always trying to hustle and like, get the degree and get the job and get the full time adjunct or full time faculty position.

Louisa Killian [00:22:09] This is what will make me worth something. And then I realized, like, stepping back and I can enjoy my husband right now and my child. I had a child, which is crazy. And I have a job at a studio which I'm able to contribute to. And it's not the prestige of perhaps a full time, but it's a wonderful thing that I support.

Louisa Killian [00:22:29] And I just am, like, chilling out. I'm just chilling instead of always feeling anxious that whatever decision I make, God's gonna punish me if I don't make the right one.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] Or.

Louisa Killian [00:22:40] Or I'm gonna like, ruin my life if I'm not on this specific path. But I just love enjoying where I'm at, enjoying traveling when I can. There's something really, really cool about that. And I remember the moment where I realized that I was in charge of my life and whatever mistakes I made were my own, that was weirdly empowering because I always felt like I was empowered. But when God wasn't punishing me or I wasn't always adhering to, like, him deciding if my choice was a good or bad one. And I realized decisions were my fault. That was so empowering. I felt so free. It was weird.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:23:22] A few things in there.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:23] Yeah. I love that. I love that. What for you, what are the challenges or what has been hard in this kind of rebuild process so far? Sticky beliefs or. I feel like you kind of brought up sometimes not feeling safe, having some of the trauma kind of show up in. In places or. But what. What for you are kind of some of the. The things that have been harder in this place of. Of rebuilding a life, rebuilding, you know, a way of being.

Louisa Killian [00:24:03] Yeah. I still have moments where the suffering comes back. And it was interesting getting ready for this podcast. I had an emotional breakdown. And I don't have them as often anymore, but I'll have. It's almost pst. Tsd. I don't know, everything will hit and if I start to remember what happened in my previous marriage or like the grief I had in my past, it'll overwhelm me. And having a child has been really interesting because then I find myself reaching out to her and being like, I don't want this to happen to her. And I just feel emotions so deeply all at once.

Louisa Killian [00:24:41] And that's hard because you think it's in the past and you think it's gone away and then you're just completely overwhelmed by grief. And it's just. It's hard. I also had a little bit of sexual trauma where with my new partner it was so much more healthy and beautiful and wonderful. But I would sometimes have an emotional response where I would be worried he was going to leave me and I would suddenly start crying and just go to this place. And so it's those kind of PTSD type moments. I don't know how else to label it in my non educated state with that. But moments of triggering relationships with my family was hard because I wanted them to understand what I was going through with a faith crisis.

Louisa Killian [00:25:30] But they sort of. I did the email thing where I sent an email and I got a little bit of a harsh response that kind of hurt my feelings because I just wanted them to understand and I wanted them to respect me. Right. The email, family email where, you know, you send out, here's all this stuff and what I did.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] Stuff meaning what?

Louisa Killian [00:25:54] The stuff I had learned or the things I was struggling with.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] The, the things that were causing you to doubt, you decided to tell family members.

Louisa Killian [00:26:01] Yes. And it was kind of at a point where I had made more decisions. So I wrote on. I sent them a table. One side of the table was things I believed in and things I believed in, in the gospel. And they were kind of like love and Jesus and kindness and charity and big picture stuff. And then I sent a list of things, reasons why I was stepping away from the church or problems I saw. And that list was a lot longer and a little bit more specific.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:26:27] And I felt like the response I got from my family, one in particular was a little bit harsh where it was like, oh, well, this is what you don't believe anymore. And that's hard because you want your parents to respect you or your family in general to respect you and you want them to understand and you're suffering.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:47] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:26:48] But they don't want to help you really, in your suffering because that's hard for them too. So relationships has been in that aspect, has been a little hard.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] Would you have either not written the email or written it differently now?

Louisa Killian [00:27:04] Well, what was hard was I asked specifically in the email for them to respond by calling, not through email, and they didn't respect those wishes. So I feel like if we were able to have a conversation because I wanted to send it to them, they can think about it, call me and talk to me when they're ready about whatever. But because we weren't able to have that verbally, that's what hurt. So maybe going back, I wouldn't have written it. I would have called right away. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Think it would have gone better if you called.

Louisa Killian [00:27:33] It would have been softer, but it would have been a harder hit initially. So better for them. I don't know. But better for me. Yes, probably.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Okay.

Louisa Killian [00:27:42] Because they wouldn't. I don't think they would have been as harsh verbally.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:27:46] But maybe they would have. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:48] Those are such hard calls to make.

Louisa Killian [00:27:51] I think it's hard either way. It's just a bomb.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:54] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm. I'm hearing definitely some ptsd, some trauma kind of following you, and then also your relationships with your family. Those being kind of harder, is that right?

Louisa Killian [00:28:09] Yeah, they were initially. Luckily we found kind of a happy place, which has been great in rebuilding, but it's still, you know. Yeah, that's hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:18] Yeah. Took a little extra. Mm. Yeah. If we were going to kind of lean a little bit into some resources that have been beneficial to you, that can be anything from baths to meditation to yoga to nature to whatever has been calming, comforting, helped you process, supported you during this time of. It's a lot of upheaval. You know, it's. It can be really overwhelming. What. What would you say there?

Resources, Practices, and Tools for Recovery

Louisa Killian [00:28:58] Yeah. And I also want to mention one more would be the teaching stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:29:04] Yeah. Because dealing with job applications and rejection.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:08] Let's talk about that. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:29:09] I mean, yeah, I can lead into also the healing from that. But that's another point that's hard because applying for jobs can be very difficult and self deprecating.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:21] Dehumanizing.

Louisa Killian [00:29:23] Yeah. And feeling like at times, oh, this is my fault because I stepped away from the church. And then you're like, well, is this because I've stepped away? So now I'm getting. Yeah. So you have all those thoughts of I'm being punished for not doing the right Thing and people outside are gonna judge me because I don't have that. That's been hard to not be able to teach.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:46] You know, one thing that just came as you're expressing that is on some level you've made such a career transition in that on some level, like the teaching at a university is a career path. And so it kind of, it feels like on some level you are renegotiating, rebuilding this idea of not just how, you know, your job shows up in your life, in what form, whether it's a career, whether it feels like a career, whether it feels, but also like its, its value. Because it feels like sometimes, especially in our culture, it's like a, a default setting that your, your job is kind of your life.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:30] That's your one. Really. Like, no, your, your life actually is your life and your, your job is a, is a way to sort of, you know, not that it can't be fulfilling, but tell me a little bit about that because I'm noticing like a big shift in that for you.

Louisa Killian [00:30:45] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, said it well, it, it was, it's my identity to a certain extent, right. And that's also my happy place was I went to get my master's degree and that was where I found a beautiful sense of identity. Right.

Louisa Killian [00:30:59] And so that was the thing that kept me alive through a lot of the grief. And there was also all that pressure as a woman in the church. I wanted to prove that I could provide, that I had a job. I didn't want to be one of those women who was a stay at home mom and was perceived as not able to do something if that made sense.

Louisa Killian [00:31:22] Cause I'm fine with being a stay at home mom. But so many people defaulted because they didn't believe they could do anything else. So yeah, that was a big part of my identity. And proving that I was a capable woman and having to renegotiate that, yeah, has been hard. But also I've realized the value. Like do I value the job itself or just the title?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:43] Right.

Louisa Killian [00:31:45] And I've realized that like right now for my lifestyle because I decided to have a baby. The job I have now is perfect and it's wonderful and I'm paid well and I'm using my like degree in many different ways. And so there's great things about that. And I don't have to have the title of professor to feel value. And I wouldn't be able to do as much in my full professorship with research and everything with my baby being born. So in a Sense I'm seeing, like, the beauty in a separate path and not putting my whole identity on, well, you have to be a professor to be respected or to be valued as a woman in the way you want to be valued.

Louisa Killian [00:32:28] Cause so often I grew up hearing. And I grew up with this, too, in my marriage. The bishop or the stake president would ask my husband what they did, and they wouldn't ask me what I did. Little did they know I was the one with the job and they were going to school.

Louisa Killian [00:32:41] That happened a lot. And I always wanted to prove myself in that way. And I really find I just want to kind of let go of some of that and be like, as long as you're happy with what you're doing, I mean, who cares what other people think? And worrying about presenting something or justifying. Justifying yourself with external things, that's big. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:03] How has it felt for you to. Because I view my experience with rebuilding is, you know, it is an incredibly internal process. It is a. It. It is defined and sort of created from this place of connecting to yourself. And that is a shift that is a big shift from, you know, from this external model that I think we've. And system that we've lived in for so long. How has that been for you, and what has it felt like for you now to have this really, you know, it's this different relationship with yourself and how you go about, you know, perceiving your life, making decisions in your life for you.

Louisa Killian [00:33:55] Yeah, it's been so freeing is really the biggest word to describe it. I remember driving to teach at byu, and I remember thinking, do I believe. Do I believe this religion? Where Joseph Smith or where this person looked in a hat and looked at a rock and saw this? And it was almost laughable in my head. And I was like, this is silly. No. And I remember feeling this feeling of, like, lightness.

Louisa Killian [00:34:32] Like, no, that's ridiculous. I don't think I believe that anymore. And I just felt a lightness. I also remember there was a moment when I'm feeling this lightness, and I felt like reaching out to one of my family members and apologizing because I had done something. I had judged their spouse because of my trauma.

Louisa Killian [00:34:57] And I reached out and I apologized, and I said, you know what? I'm sorry that I've been judging, and I really want to try hard to do better. And I was like, you know what? If I was lds, I would have blamed that on the spirit. And that that good feeling came from that I am still a good person. Without the gospel. And then I thought, you know what? I might be even better. Sometimes without it, I can still listen to those feelings that say, hey, maybe you should text that person, or, hey, maybe you should apologize.

Louisa Killian [00:35:23] I realized the power in following my own tuition without having to give it all to the credit of the church. And that was so cool because I realized I was. I don't know, it's silly, but I realized I was still a good person without it and that I still got promptings. And I had a family member text me and say, you know, sorry, you lost the spirit or something. And I was like, I still have the spirit.

Louisa Killian [00:35:49] I. I don't call it the same thing you do, but I still have the spirit, and it hasn't loved my life, so you don't have to worry about me. It's okay. I don't know. It's almost like that freedom I should have had as a kid to decide my own religion, but I hadn't got it until I was 30 years old. And some people don't get it until they're 70.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:07] Yes.

Louisa Killian [00:36:08] But I have felt so free to live authentically and to do what feels right. And I don't have to fight the church on the LGBTQ rights anymore. If issue. I don't have to feel like a hypocrite flying a Gay Pride flag. I can fly a Gay Pride flag and feel like, yeah, I'm really accepting people instead of feeling that, like, ugh, I'm. I'm putting up with stuff in church, even though this struggles with my values. And I thought of a good way to explain it to people if they ever maybe challenge me on it, is just to say, like, I. The church didn't support my beliefs, and I know what my beliefs are now, and that feels so freeing and beautiful.

Louisa Killian [00:36:49] And it's a little scarier to piece together values without the worksheet, but I've done it with Joe, where we decide what our family values are. Right. And those are the things that are most important. And I'm really trying to see whether I lose myself and I'm not as good a person without the church's structure or if I am, because so far, it's felt a lot healthier. Yeah, a lot healthier. And I love just something simple. I'm able to be at home, not be working on something, and be okay with myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:23] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:37:24] Which I think a lot of people with scrupulosity have. But I can literally be peaceful and read a book or have a lazy Saturday and be like, that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:37:34] I don't have to be working constantly to feel like I'm valuable as a human being and I can enjoy nature and silly hippie dippy stuff like that, which is awesome. But patience. Yeah. I just. I feel more peaceful. I feel more peaceful. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:56] Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Well, let's lean back into some resources if you don't mind. Some things that have been helpful for you in the way of support, comfort, you know, joy, anything.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Tools. Anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:16] Tools, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Books, skills.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:19] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:38:19] Yeah. I'm a dancer, so dance is a big thing. It's interesting. I had a physical transition as well as an emotional one in grad school where I started my thesis work. And I was sure about the conclusion and I had to learn within my thesis work that you ask a question and you don't know the answer to it. So that was a shift where I had to soften. I also showed up at college being very. A bound mover, like sharp and strong and, you know, push ups. And it was really interesting because that reflected how I felt inside. I had to learn how to give in to weight, if that makes sense. So some of the modern dance techniques, they use swinging and like weight things.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] You.

Louisa Killian [00:39:06] You don't use muscle, you use release of muscle. And release technique helped me realize that that's also dancing and that also produces results and it helps me actually be able to do some complicated moves. That is direct correlation to what happened to me emotionally. So I had to learn to let go and I had to learn to let go of that binding. That binding. Gripping. Always holding on. So dancing.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:33] Kind of holding in.

Louisa Killian [00:39:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:35] Like your feelings kind of. That holding in and kind of. Is that what you mean versus this? Also kind of. And then also your perfectionism and kind of. That always. Is that what you're talking about?

Louisa Killian [00:39:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:46] As opposed to allowing yourself to kind of be more fluid and show up.

Louisa Killian [00:39:51] So many metaphors in there. Yeah. Or even letting go and control. Letting things be. Being more open to improvisation, to whatever happens, happens. All that.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:02] That's beautiful.

Louisa Killian [00:40:03] It was huge. That was my whole thesis, actually. My thesis work. And that. Yeah. Is reflected in the way that now I try to look at life and how I try to. It made me grow as a dancer. Technically.

Louisa Killian [00:40:18] I had so many more textures in my body. As a performer and also as a person, I was able to heal more. Just like open up more, be less stressed. Yeah. Embracing the unknown and embracing vulnerability, which is a little bit of a cliche, but absolutely true. For people like me.

Louisa Killian [00:40:43] That was huge. And I found that through dance, I found that through breathing. So breathing in and out as a part of a dance practice, which you can find in yoga, you can find on your own, just breathing at home. The physical is so connected to our emotional. And so often we use dance or review it sometimes as just entertainment. But if you find time to like, use your body to do something and pay attention to what your body does, not as an object for.

Louisa Killian [00:41:11] Not as a tool to get you something, but as something you can notice, like I'm just going to notice being in my body, which ties to meditation. That is so healing because not only do you have to accept your body in that moment, but you have to be in the present moment and not focus on a goal.

Louisa Killian [00:41:30] And that's really beautiful. And I do that in my classes where I help my students like let go, release, be okay with themselves. Yeah, that's a big one. Is dance and my bartiniief work and breath work.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:48] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:41:50] And sometimes I get to do it myself, but I definitely like doing it for others. And just being a dancer by nature, I'm able to be physical with my job, which is helpful to process things.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Yeah, I love that. Just the physical, I don't think, you know, people are always mentioning books they read or podcasts they listen to or like going to a therapist, which is all crucial, but like, it's, it's rare for people to mention the physical. But things like breathing and movement.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Exercise even, those are crucial, crucial things.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:23] Yeah. More and more too, we are having research come out on, you know, processing trauma and, and it's, there's a lot of movement oriented. Breath is in there too. And also moving being a crucial way to kind of process. Yeah. And ground.

Louisa Killian [00:42:44] Yeah. If you've ever experienced improvisation, literally you can like stand in a room by yourself and just try dancing on your own. Sounds really silly, but there's a reason it sounds silly is because we've been conditioned to, in our culture to not use dance in a way to discover things about ourselves. We've used it as something to show other people. So I found such beauty in like moving, in improvising. And that's why I love teaching improvisation. I taught a class at BYU where we improvised. And yeah, you can discover so much about yourself by the way you move. Standing, sitting, moving your body to music, anything. Yeah, it's. It's really cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:30] I have a whole, you know, I can just imagine.

Louisa Killian [00:43:33] Whole thing about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:34] I can just imagine it's making. Okay, I'm going to say one thing and then we're going to go. It's making me remember my Calm app where I do meditation, has a new practice called the Daily Move. And it's usually five minutes or less. And on one of those prompts, one morning she had you. She gave you prompts, and you were to do the dances or do the. Like you were five. To remember who you were when you were about five years old and to do this certain thing like you would have when you were 5. Yeah, it was. It was amazing. You know, it was so transformative in taking you to a different time, to a different place, access to a different part of yourself. And it was so incredibly joyful, you know, So I can just imagine, like, as you're talking. Yeah, that was five minutes.

Louisa Killian [00:44:35] Yeah. And that makes me think. So my whole life in the church, I fought women in Relief Society over checklist stuff. So I almost feel like we want to say, oh, read this book. It'll change your life. Do this checklist. It'll change your life. Meditate. It'll change your life. I've just decided that we just need time to enjoy what we have and to live presently. And dance does that for sure. Improvisation does that. Going back to a memory does that. Pick something that you like to do.

Louisa Killian [00:45:06] I'm going to get a notebook and I'm going to draw for a little bit. Or I'm gonna, like, read my journals from back when or I'm gonna read a book. Like, I just feel Western society is just aching for moments of peace and, like, enjoyment in the now. It's very Buddhist. Like, we're all like, give us the Buddhism, give us the Eastern. Because as Westerns, we've just, like, run ourselves into the ground anyway. So finding those things that you can just use to enjoy that don't feel like a task and then not feeling pressure to do it the right way. That's so big in lds. Yes. LDS teaching.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:45] It's the perfection Optimize. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:45:48] Like, let's make a list and relieve society of the things I'm going to do. New Year's resolutions. No, just, like, allow yourself to do things that you want to do is essentially what it comes down to. Sounds so silly.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:01] So dance seems like kind of a door for. For you to feel presence. Right? To feel a sense of presence and joy. It's sounding like both. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:46:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:16] What other. What other things? Are there any other things that kind of come to mind that you regularly practice or think about or. Or do? I'm kind of thinking about something you said earlier, even about your little Baby and how that can bring you just to the present moment. Like, looking at her or anything like that.

Louisa Killian [00:46:41] Yeah, I think babies do that. Like, we look at them and they smile at us like they're there. Or I'll hold her up to a mirror and she looks at herself and she smiles. She doesn't know to judge herself. Right. She doesn't know to look at that face and be like, oh, I'm too this or I'm too that. And we do that as humans all the time. And that innocence of, like, I'm in the present moment, I'm hungry. I cry. I'm, you know, uncomfortable. I cry. I mean, there's something beautiful that babies can teach us about that. And that has been really awesome just to have this little thing that. That. Yeah, that. That reminds you of that every day.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:23] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:47:24] And more for me, too. I'm just so happy I'm in a place where I feel safe to have a child with somebody I love. And that's simple. But to me, I just know there are a lot of bad, abusive marriages that happen, and some are resolved and some are not. And I just feel so lucky to be. Feel safe enough to be with somebody who loves me and to feel safe enough to have a child with them and not worry about her. And that beautiful. Ugh. I mean, that was part of the reason why I reached out to you was I feel like there's so many people who are in relationships where they're suffering and maybe they don't have to be, if that makes sense.

Louisa Killian [00:48:06] Or maybe. I don't know, maybe we don't realize what we deserve all the time without being selfish. But, like, I just have realized in my second marriage what a healthy marriage is. And it is so beautiful. And it shouldn't be hard all the time. Marriage shouldn't be hard all the time.

Louisa Killian [00:48:26] And it doesn't mean that it's going to be perfect or that we never mess up. But that love that I have in this marriage, the respect and the joy I have, I want everybody to have that with whoever they're with. That's what the church supposedly should be giving people. Not staying in abusive marriages, but really being in a beautiful family unit where there is love and respect and kindness. And I think as a society, that's what we want. I mean, I don't know.

Louisa Killian [00:48:58] That's a beautiful, wonderful support, and that ties into our resources. Having a healthy marriage, having somebody I can communicate with and just being open to talk about things if they come up. It's important to have that and to make time for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:14] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:49:15] And I'm really grateful that motherhood was a choice for me, if that makes sense. I believe that all women and men and non binary, everybody should choose when they have children. Because I think a big problem is when we feel like we didn't have a choice. That can be very. That can be hard as a loss of identity. And I don't think I was really choosing it in my first marriage. I think I just felt like that was the next thing to do. So we should do that. It might fix our marriage. That scares me. When I realized that I was, you know, 23 or whatever. Gotta have a baby with somebody.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:47] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:49:49] And now this baby's my choice. Right. And like, I had her and it feels like I have no regrets in that.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:59] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:50:01] If that makes sense. It was really important that I realized, okay, I'm pregnant and I decided and we're gonna do this thing and.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] Yes.

Louisa Killian [00:50:10] And she's. She's great. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:14] How different that can feel. Yeah. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:50:18] Another resource that I've had since my divorce would be baths. Baths has been huge, especially as a dancer. I think I could justify it by my sore muscles. But I'll get like special bath bombs that are a little pricey because I want them. And I'll just take a bath. Hot bath, hot water. That's my go to. And I'll bring a book. Sometimes I'll bring a book and read a book and just take time to do that. And luckily I have a partner who is really great at taking the baby for me. Like, we give each other time for space.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] I love that.

Louisa Killian [00:50:51] So that's an equal partnership where we each get time and can attend to each other's needs. So bass is big for me and reading whatever things I like to do. We also like to go experience different things. All different things. Even if it's a bad concert, we experience it together. Making time to experience art and. And support creativity. That's where I want my tithing money to go, is to the art. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:22] I feel like you. You kind of have started like leaning into joy. Like your last ones were kind of like joy, little joy places for you. Baths. How do we feel about baths, John?

John Dehlin [00:51:35] Oh, my gosh. I take a bath. Well, I'm afraid to admit it. In an environmental, environmentally, it's safe here. Conscious world, it's safe here in front of 50, 000 people.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:46] Well, true.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Let's just say I love bats. I'm just gonna put it. Put it like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:51] We are pre we are.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] And I bathe in Margi's bath water. We are probably to save water and energy.

Louisa Killian [00:51:58] Good for you. My partner doesn't like bath, so I waste water but. Or pescatarian and try to do other things.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:04] That's right. That's right.

Louisa Killian [00:52:06] Can't do it. All benefit will cost benefit.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:10] That's right.

Louisa Killian [00:52:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:13] And I. So moving into joy. And I feel like, you know, you mentioned that at the tail end reading baths, you've mentioned kind of presence and I love that. Especially given, you know, I don't know, the states of just sort of trauma and hyper vigilance. I think that you've been in and you know, these heightened states of like feeling danger, like to yourself, perceived danger. And.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:43] And I do see joy pleasure as so important to pair in grieving. I don't know if you feel this way. I was going to ask you about it, but I think processing is important like therapy and writing and all the forms that help kind of move through grief and kind of express it.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:05] But like grief can feel heavy, trauma feels heavy. There's like enough. There's a weight to walking with all that. That I just feel like joy reminds us why we want to live, you know, and it's no small thing. I mean to, to.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:24] To be in this world right now. And so joy is no small thing. It should be a priority because without it, like, we've just got the heavy, you know, so you naturally were kind of leaning toward joy. Is there any other things. Are there any other things you want to add to sort of, you know, this reorienting way almost from enduring towards sort of. No. I'm going to actually gift myself my need. My need to sometimes feel joy and pleasure in a moment.

Louisa Killian [00:54:05] Yeah. That's making me think of, I don't know, it's. It's making me think of holding. Yeah. Like the pressures of the world and what we should be doing. And then also self indulgence a little. It made me think of actually when you listen to the news a lot and you have all this stuff in your head and the weight of the world. Right. Like, oh, I'm taking a bath, I'm a bad person, I need to conserve water. Or like there's a war going on. Or if you've seen the Good Place TV show. Right. Like everything they decide to do has moral consequences because we don't know where all of our things are made now.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:48] Right.

Louisa Killian [00:54:48] Like everything we do is bad. I find that like. And maybe this doesn't answer your question, but this is just where my brain went was I also find that, like, still finding education is really important to me and, like, finding some as unbiased sources as I can to help inform me.

Louisa Killian [00:55:14] And also, and I appreciate that Mormon stories have tried to do this. Continuing to remind myself of the other point of view of empathizing. There's something about educating myself to where I don't feel too heavy, overwhelmed by the world. I have to take a break every once in a while. Right. But I've got enough education that I continue to try to make choices that can do real good in the world. And. And when I was in the church, I thought I was doing real good, but a lot of the good I was doing was in small relationships, which are important, but communal relationships within the church bubble.

Louisa Killian [00:55:52] And I wasn't able to look a little bit wider to bigger issues of my community or of the world or of people I didn't associate with. There's something really cool about, like, looking for sources that aren't hateful, that are just putting information out there, being curious. I love that idea that curiosity is the opposite of fear. I just learned that recently, and I thought that was beautiful because that's what I do in improv. And that's all that I've ever wanted to do, is just be curious so that you can continue to ask questions, continue to learn that you don't get stuck in a certain way, so then you're hardened and you start to hate.

Louisa Killian [00:56:29] The more hope we have and the more curiosity we have about the world around us, the more we're gonna be able to go towards, you know, beautiful things.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:37] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:56:38] So I also think there's a responsibility for me and my privileged state to learn. I have the ability to, like, turn on sources I trust. I started listening to NPR a few years ago, so that's a source I go to to just, like, be informed on the news without feeling super heavy with, like, drama and just finding sources. And they have, like, Science Friday on there. Right. That's, like, lighter anyway. A balance of light and heavy. But all of it sort of like learning, I guess, curiosity, and then deciding what I want to do with that knowledge so that I can help other people. We just gotta be easy on ourselves. And also, I don't know, curious. I love that.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:24] I love curious too.

Louisa Killian [00:57:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:27] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [00:57:27] I don't know if that was the right answer, but it was an answer.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:30] I love it. I love it.

Life After the Church and Current Spirituality

John Dehlin [00:57:32] You mentioned, like, the Scientology documentaries. I believe it was last episode. The going clear was influential to me. And then the Leah Remini Mike Rinder series. What other resources have helped you process? Let's just say your religious programming or your faith deconstruction or your faith reconstruction sort of religious resources or secular resources that address faith deconstruction. Just list whatever you want to list.

Louisa Killian [00:58:02] Yeah, and I'm going to list ones that helped me, but not because they were things I agreed with, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Sure.

Louisa Killian [00:58:12] Year of polygamy was great. Those. Yeah. Scientology documentaries, those two that you mentioned. Basically any kind of those documentaries where they were studying. I did, you know, the whole cult documentary thing, looking into cults, because that's what I realized was a big also comparison was that people believed they were doing the right thing in Scientology. They thought they were saving the world. And I was like, oh, that's what people believe in Mormonism. So like these systems, you know, where you believe you're doing a good thing. That was interesting. All those so called documentaries.

Louisa Killian [00:58:55] See, I wrote them down. Fair Mormon resources. I looked at their stuff, I looked at the videos, the section the church put on doubt. I believe it said that like doubt your doubts kind of thing that helped me really realize how the church viewed questioning with faith and that I didn't believe in that as an intellectual and as an artist.

Louisa Killian [00:59:25] Anyway, that was interesting because I was like, oh, you really don't support questioning Natasha Helpfer's story and excommunication. I viewed that as an intellectual, somebody in the research field. So that was important to me in seeing how the church treats people maybe who stand up and advocate for their profession. Some Mormon stories, episodes. I should have brought my little list that might be on my outline.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Margi's got the outline.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:04] Those are great. Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:00:05] I don't know if I mentioned any more, but I started digging into those sources. I have pregnancy bring now too. I call it that ever since I had a baby.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:14] You talked about Radio West.

Louisa Killian [01:00:16] Yeah, Radio West. Listening to Radio west, them, you know, approaching things kind of from an outsider's perspective, different topics from the church and honestly just my intuition as a critical thinker starting to realize at age 30 where I put my money and why. Dating Joe. And he was asking questions about word of the wisdom. I never had to answer before realizing that I was following the word of wisdom out of obedience for the prophet, not necessarily health reasons. So just like growing up and learning from people's questions and really deciding, just investigating a little bit into why I do what I do and what really is important to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:05] Yeah, yeah, it's kind of that you were saying curiosity and there's a curiosity for the world and news and the paths of other people, the experiences of other people. And then there's also curiosity about yourself that you get curious about. Why do I, you know, why do I think that? Do I have a. You know, why do I do that? Why do I react that way sometimes? Not in a judgy way, in a. In a curious way. I love that. Turning it toward ourselves.

Louisa Killian [01:01:37] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:39] So talk about just, you know, these are kind of the end questions. So your life now, your life in the present moment feels like, you know, I think when we're. When we're in the church, you know, we've heard stories about what it's like on the other side if we ever leave or if we. What does life feel like for you now?

Louisa Killian [01:02:08] Yeah, I feel so in control of my life now. Garments is usually a big one for women especially, and that was freeing for me as a dancer and somebody who loves the human body. I just feel like I'm in control of my life, and that's scary sometimes, but also really beautiful.

Louisa Killian [01:02:37] And I feel like I know the things that I am doing right now are things that I feel good about, and that feels good to me and that I also have questions about the future. And I love that I don't have all the answers. I didn't like feeling like I had all the answers. I didn't go on a mission because I felt like I wanted to learn about other people instead of preach to them.

Louisa Killian [01:03:02] I always had a problem with kind of telling other people how to live, if that makes sense. I wasn't quite sure, right. If this was the one true path for everybody. That felt kind of wrong. So I love that I can live more authentically. And that just. That feels awesome. I have a new baby who's beautiful, and she can be exposed to whatever she wants to, at least deciding what membership of a church she wants to be at at her own timing.

Louisa Killian [01:03:32] And that doesn't mean that I don't have values or structures that I believe in. So I'm going to teach her all that I can. But at least she's not born into a system already. She can have more agency. And I really love that.

Louisa Killian [01:03:49] And so, yeah, I just. Yeah, it just feels freeing. And I mourn some of the things and I will say that I don't like. I've started to decide that sometimes we look back at our experiences and be like, well, that was for my good.

Louisa Killian [01:04:05] I feel confident in saying that if I didn't have to go through my first marriage And I could still meet my husband now. I wouldn't go through it. And I don't say that apologetically. I'm not gonna say it made me a better person.

Louisa Killian [01:04:17] I look back now and I go, no, that was bad and that was wrong. That that happened to me. Certain things in the marriage, certain things were wonderful, but that was wrong, and I didn't. If I could live my life again but still meet Joe, I wouldn't do that again.

Louisa Killian [01:04:35] And I love being able to not make excuses for that kind of thing anymore. Yeah. So I'm. I'm happy. Life is still hard, but I made it that way, and that's great. I don't have that omniscient thing looking over me, judging me for every single thing I do. And I can really embrace the parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ that I loved, which were the core tenets that apply to every person in humanity. Love and forgiveness and pain and sorrow and things that, like, really matter and really apply. Qualitative versus quantitative. That's where I jam, and that's what I love to do, so I don't have to worry about those checklists.

Louisa Killian [01:05:19] And honestly, I felt like I stayed before sometimes in the church because I really wanted it to be focused on the qualitative. In the end, you know, I wanted it to support those big values. And I was there in church trying to make it that way and trying to help women to not be hard on themselves and, you know, to see things from another perspective. But I realized that the church doesn't deserve me right now because I'm going to live my life in happiness, and I'm not going to bust my butt in my job to do things that don't feel right to me. For an institution that tells me, you need to answer these checklist questions or you're out.

Louisa Killian [01:05:59] I'm just not going to be bullied anymore. And that feels really good. I feel sad, though, maybe for people who are suffering because of their experience. But I just want to love everybody, and I feel like I'm really able to do that now. I'm able to love everybody and just be a person.

Louisa Killian [01:06:14] Joe wants to film me sometimes because I have moments where I'm like, oh, I can be a person, or, oh, that was kind of culty. And I'm not doing that anymore. He gets to see the realization of me just, like, feeling free and beautiful, and I love that. Yeah. And you can feel that way probably in the church, but it was too much for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:38] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:06:39] So shedding that was really cool. And I'll still go to church if I'm with my mom or something. I don't have a problem showing up because I know who I am.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:48] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:06:50] Yeah. And I want to love everybody on both sides.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:06:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] That was beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:59] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:01] Thank you.

Louisa Killian [01:07:03] Thank you. Yeah. A hoarse voice, but it's authentic.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:08] That's right. And yeah, it is authentic. It's authentic in many ways. It's authentic to. Yeah. Thank you for sharing so openly and. Yeah. What a journey. And there's more to come.

Louisa Killian [01:07:23] Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] So as far as, like, sounds like you, you're. You're continuing to identify as Christian, is that right?

Louisa Killian [01:07:36] Me, I like being. I don't know. Yeah, I like, I always had trouble with Jesus actually, when I was a kid, like thinking of it literally. So I loved what he stand for, but I was like, but I've never seen him alive, so I don't know. So I love just saying I don't know and being agnostic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Okay. She identifies agnostic.

Louisa Killian [01:07:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] About Jesus and about. And about God, the supreme being.

Louisa Killian [01:08:03] Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] So no. No desire to go to church right now.

Louisa Killian [01:08:08] Not for myself.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Yeah. Okay.

Louisa Killian [01:08:10] Yeah. But if a church presented itself and I told my bishop when I left, I said, if this church is true, I'll be back. So who knows what will happen? But right now, no church. But I'm not opposed to trying anything.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] And clearly you have a better marriage out of the church. But what about mental health? Just as kind of an important component. Would you say your mental health's improved overall? I think it's implied in what you've said, but I'm just going to ask directly.

Louisa Killian [01:08:39] Yeah. That perfectionist mindset just like perfect the last bits of it. When I left, the faith totally melted away. I mean, they still come up, but I just felt.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:48] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:08:48] That freeing that I talked about was very much like letting go. Even more of that perfectionist tendencies of like always feeling like somebody's judging me. I was able to really feel even more free mentally and health wise. And yeah, it's been much less pressure in a really good way.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] And you feel like you're set up maybe to be a better parent than you would have otherwise.

Louisa Killian [01:09:13] That one's tricky. I honestly believe I'd be a good parent either way. But I think I would have fought kind of like my parents did where I was in the church and I was indoctrinated with certain things. And then at home we would talk about it as a family and maybe not agree with everything. I feel like that would have been the dynamic where like she would go to church and then we talk about, hey, we don't hate people that are gay or hey, you're still important as a woman, or that whole chewed gum thing, that's crap. So I would have had to work harder as a parent, I think, to undo some things I don't believe in.

Louisa Killian [01:09:47] And so I do feel like I could be a better parent. And I also think like, Joe and I were able to be more on the same page now before I was much more of a believer. I'm in the system and he wasn't. So we would have to negotiate that as a partnership with her.

Louisa Killian [01:10:01] And now like we can both be completely on the same page about how we feel about, about those things. And that's really great. Not better, not worse, but just less work.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] You mentioned, I think in the last, last episode about how when your family hit hard times after your dad died, how the church as a community stepped up and really helped you guys. How has the whole, we'll call it a whole of community. How is that filled in for you? Or has it or do you feel a hole now?

Louisa Killian [01:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] What about community?

Louisa Killian [01:10:37] That's actually something I worry about with my daughter because I was raised in such a tight knit community. I loved that growing up. So I don't know how that's going to be for her. And I hope that she finds a community. I know for myself and Joe. We have friends who are like family and I have a good relationship with my family right now and so she has that support when we visit.

Louisa Killian [01:10:58] But you have to build community with family and friends and you have to actively like, make sure you come up with events versus like the church doing it for you and staying active in your community. So I will admit it's a little lonelier and it's harder. I have to do the work, but I have hope. And, and as long as she finds my child, you know, finds good friends and has a good community, I'm hopeful it'll work out. But that's the best part of the church. Yeah. Is that rallying. And I would hope that members of the church in our area would continue to reach out to people who aren't a part of the church.

Louisa Killian [01:11:32] So then we can still get to know each other. Takes harder to get to know your neighbors. But once you have that built, you have people there who love you and take care of you. So luckily Joe and I have that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] What does spirituality mean to you now? Or does that word even have value for you now or use?

Louisa Killian [01:11:49] Totally does. Because I'm a dancer. I'm in the arts. I believe in these beautiful kind of ethereal ideas that we can't quite label. And I love the idea that we don't know everything. And spirituality, to me is that curiosity of the unknown.

Louisa Killian [01:12:06] Spirituality is when we try to reach out to something maybe outside ourselves that we don't completely understand, that can help buoy us up. And I still will pray sometimes. Sometimes I say heavenly Father, because that's how I'm trained.

Louisa Killian [01:12:22] But I'll pray sometimes in my heart because that was an important part, being able to, like, put that out there in the universe. And spirituality, to me, is that connection to kind of the unknown. Those big existential questions of, like, what's out there? Is somebody listening?

Louisa Killian [01:12:40] What brings me joy? What are we seeking? That, like, connects the human condition. That is a positive thing that keeps us living and growing. I love that. That exists in all kinds of cultures. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] So speaking the unknown, what about death? How do you think about death now?

Louisa Killian [01:12:59] I really hope there is something after death because I love Joe a lot, and I would hate for us to be done, but if we're done at the end, then I won't know it, and so that's okay. And I'm gonna live this life as much as I can. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not afraid of death, but I am afraid of being lonely. So if I ever lose Joe at any point, that's my biggest fear.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] Stay healthy, Joe.

Louisa Killian [01:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Stay safe and healthy. And this is a tender question, but we're kind of ending how we began a little bit, that if there isn't an afterlife, that means you. You may not see your dad again.

Louisa Killian [01:13:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] Have you thought. I mean, have you factored that in? Because a lot of people keep believing in heaven and afterlife primarily motivated by the fact that they want to see a loved one who's passed on.

Louisa Killian [01:13:48] Yeah. I mean, I think regardless, though, if they want to. You don't know that for sure till it happens. So I would argue that it's still a question, even if you think, you know, we all hope for it.

Louisa Killian [01:14:01] Yeah. I also think that, like, so much of what I would want to see my dad for is to kind of review the life I've led. So if he's up there seeing what I'm doing now, you know, I just want to have a conversation with him.

Louisa Killian [01:14:17] And I don't know. I think that that gets away again from the present mindset, that if we're thinking about death and we're thinking about afterlife, and I want to see that person again, and that's how I judge my value, that goal, then maybe we're not working on what we should be here.

Louisa Killian [01:14:33] And maybe we're just running away from dealing with grief and loss because at a certain point, I had to decide, my dad's not going to be there for my graduation, he's not going to be here, here, maybe I'll see him later. But that doesn't make the grief okay now, which is a problem. Sometimes we, like, gloss over the hard stuff that happens in real life because we're like, oh, it'll be better later.

Louisa Killian [01:14:52] But, no, what's happening really is life now. And so I think, regardless, I'm just enjoying what I have now because that's what I can see and feel and be in. And I can have hopes, but I'm not gonna let those hopes make me happy or sad in the present moment, if that makes sense.

Louisa Killian [01:15:13] Yeah, that would be. I don't know. That'd be silly to base all our hopes and dreams on the afterlife, which is what I kind of did in the. In the church, so.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Wow, that's powerful, Margi. Louisa. Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] All right, well. Are you handing it back to me, Margi?

Louisa Killian [01:15:38] Yeah.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:15:38] All right. Well, Margi, thank you so much for making this episode happen and for co hosting. It's just so great to always have you here.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:49] Yeah, my pleasure. I'm glad.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] And way to pick amazing guests.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:55] Yeah, I feel lucky. We got lucky.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] And you were on. You were on Mormonism Live or Radio Free Mormon or something. I want to give a shout out to Bill and rfm. Were they a part of your journey or was it just a coincidence that they found you?

Louisa Killian [01:16:10] No, I reached out to them. I wanted to be an advocate and to bring transparency to the BYU faculty experience if you went through a faith crisis. So I reached out to them and said, hey, I'm a BYU professor, I'm in the middle of, like, losing my job.

Louisa Killian [01:16:25] If you're interested in shedding light on this issue so people know what's going on. So that one is more of an advocating for, like, what is the process of BYU dealing with faith crisis in that moment? Right. And now they've changed it. So I think they've doubled down a little bit, so that's more clear. But when I was going through it, I wasn't sure what was going to happen to me, so they helped me get the message out. And I actually had somebody approach me and say, I watched your episode and I'm not going to work at byu. I don't want to deal with that.

Louisa Killian [01:16:55] Because people need to know if you're signing up to work there or to be a student there, how they will treat you if something like that happens. Just so that you have all the cards on the table before maybe a faith crisis. Because you can't plan on a faith crisis. So, um, I just wanted people to know instead of guessing, like, oh, no, they hire non members. No. Right. Like, let's get the information out there so they can be more clear as an institution.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] So you can't recommend BYU as a student or a faculty. If. What?

Louisa Killian [01:17:28] If you ever want to question your religion, unless you want to enter cold turkey, not be a part of the LDS Church, go ahead. They'll love you. But if you ever want to question your religion at all, don't go to byu.

John Dehlin [01:17:42] Or if you think you might, unless

Louisa Killian [01:17:44] you have a lot of money, then maybe you'll be okay afterwards.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:50] That's so tough.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:52] Because who wants to?

Louisa Killian [01:17:53] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Well, if the people that need to hear that message aren't listening, aren't necessarily watching or listening to the podcast.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] And then the people who are hearing it are probably hearing it too late.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:05] You don't plan on it. You. For many people, they don't seek it.

Louisa Killian [01:18:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:09] Right. So.

Louisa Killian [01:18:10] But maybe if somebody researched, like, you know, I had somebody say they're not gonna apply for byu. If they're, like, in between, maybe a nuanced view. They're not gonna, like. I know nuanced people. Right. I mean, wasn't Patrick Mason. He says he doesn't work for the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:18:26] Specifically.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:18:27] There's a reason. Yep. So if I wasn't working for the church. Yeah. How much different could my faith crisis have been, perhaps at that point? No, this is. Yeah. Some people are smart and they know they don't want to tie their financial gain to the institution. And I totally get that because you can say a lot more, and you don't have to live in fear. And so many faculty live in fear. They've talked to me. They just don't talk to their bishop about stuff because they don't want to lose their job. And I think that is horrible because they're good people.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] So you knew faculty at BYU that were in faith crisis or didn't believe. Oh, okay.

Louisa Killian [01:19:04] Not didn't completely believe, but had issues. They wouldn't talk to the bishop. I don't Know if it was faith specific, could have been anything in their life that they were just afraid to lose their job. So they weren't going to give that in the hands of a clergyman who volunteered.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] Yeah. That just seems the church should. If the church believes that bishops should be counselors, then they. That what you tell the bishop needs to be protected, full stop.

Louisa Killian [01:19:31] Yeah. Or let the bishop, if you believe in his prophetic ministry, endorse you. Regardless.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:19:38] Anyway, sorry. That's the flip side of it.

John Dehlin [01:19:41] All right, well, Louisa Killian, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories for speaking out. I know you're going to help many past, present and future BYU faculty and students by telling your story.

Louisa Killian [01:19:54] I hope so. Sorry for the hoarse voice, but maybe it's more endearing. You'll feel more sorry for me. No, no, it's been a pleasure and I really appreciate it. I appreciate all you guys are doing, and I hope that we can get rid of labels on all sides.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] Yeah.

Louisa Killian [01:20:07] Because we're just people. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] Thank you. Thanks again, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:13] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] And thanks to all of you who support Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations make this possible. We lose. We lost like four donors today. It's weird. They just come in little clumps. But if we, if we don't replace donors, then we have to cut back services. So if you value this program, you want to see content like this continue. We would love it if you could become a monthly donor by clicking on the donate button at the top of the MormonStories.org page. And, you know, whatever you can afford. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford.

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John Dehlin [01:21:21] Give us your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com comment on any of these episodes and if you have ideas or suggestions, we'd love to hear it. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and stay tuned for more episodes of Mormon Stories podcast in the weeks, months and years ahead. Take care, everybody.

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