Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 752

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 5, 2017 and we're very, very excited to have with us someone that I've known for quite some time. His name is Derek Clements. And before we jump into our discussion with Derek on the topic of ethically Navigating the Middle Way of Mormonism, that's the title that we're giving it. I'll just add a few announcements and then we'll dive right in.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] So as many of you know, there are several events that we have planned and organized over the past six, several months or so. You can go to mormonstories.org events to see the event calendar. These are workshops and retreats mostly for people who are some way navigating a faith or religious transition within a Mormon context.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] The first that we have is July 7th through 8th in Dallas, Texas. We'll be doing a full two day retreat. We're really excited about that. We're planning a fireside one of those nights as well that we'll be getting some information out soon on.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] So if you're anywhere in the Texas or surrounding states and you want to spend a good two days with others who are trying to work out their Mormon transition, we'd love you to join us. August 11th through 12th we'll be doing something very special. It's a mixed faith marriage retreat.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Dr. Julie D' Azevedo Hanks will be joining me. If you are in a mixed faith marriage or if you know someone who is, it'll be two days of content specifically oriented towards those in a mixed faith marriage and it'll be split down the middle. So half believers and active, half non believers are semi active or non active. So we're really excited about that. Please do join us if you can. There will be karaoke September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] October 20th, 22nd will be in Sydney, Australia. We're really excited about that. November 9th through 10th will be in San Francisco Bay Area. And if you really like to plan ahead, we're planning Mormon Stories Cruise based on listener demand and requests. We're planning a cruise to the Bahamas in October of 2018. We've already got several people signed up. Even though it's that far out, we're gonna have a blast. So please check out mormonstories.org events if you want to join us for any of those events. And if you have any questions, feel free to email us@openstoriesfoundationmail.com so those are our announcements. We're really excited for all those who are joining us live on Facebook Live.

Meet Derrick Clements

John Dehlin [00:03:27] And now I'm going to introduce our first guest, our only guest for today. His name is Derek clements. Again, it's June 5th. Derek, you've been a listener to Mormon Stories or the OSF podcast for quite some time, but if you don't mind, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself really quick to our audience and then we'll talk about our topic.

Derrick Clements [00:03:50] Yeah, so, yeah, so my name is Derek Clements, as you said. And let's see. I live in Provo. I work for the Daily Herald newspaper, where I cover arts and entertainment. I do a number of podcasts on my own. I do a podcast about Pick. I'm a big movie fan and a Pixar fan, and I actually just started helping out Gina Colvin on her thoughtful faith podcast. We started a new series called the Cheeky Mormon Movie Review. We've done a few movies, movie reviews on that. So far, it's been pretty fun. Yeah, I'm married and my wife's name is Katie, and that's a little bit about me.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] All right. Yeah. So I think it's worth mentioning your time at Radiolab, because I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who think Radiolab

Derrick Clements [00:04:34] is super cool, and I'm one of them. I think Radiolab is great. Yeah. A couple years ago, I went to New York for the summer while I was still a student at BYU toward the end of my college career there. And, yeah, I was an intern. It was great. It was a really, really cool experience and got to meet some really great people, learn about radio, and it was fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] And tell us about Pixar podcast and just a little bit about what that's about and what type of audience it has and how that's been for you.

Derrick Clements [00:05:06] Yeah, well, it's funny, John, and I'll remember way back when I first found your podcast, Mormon Stories. It was one of the first podcasts that I found back in, like, what, 2005, 2006, something like that. And I actually, I was like, oh, I want to do a podcast. And I think I even sent you an email. I don't know if you remember, I sent you an email. I was like, I don't even remember what I asked you, but I asked you some kind of question about, like, tips for podcasting. And you were really generous and gave me some good, good tips, and it was really helpful.

Derrick Clements [00:05:33] But then it wasn't until a few years later that I actually decided, I'm gonna really gonna do this. So I started a podcast. I called it the Pixar Podcast. The intent was just to talk about Pixar buzz and news and stuff like that of upcoming movies. And then it ended up getting listened to by some Pixar animators who expressed interest in it, and I was like, oh, wow. So I.

Derrick Clements [00:05:58] Them and sort of. And then it kind of. The show morphed from there to a interview show mainly. So it's. It's a. I. I try to incorporate some documentary aspect, audio documentary aspects, kind of Radiolab style and. But covering Pixar movies. I've gone to Pixar a number of times since. Since then, with the podcast, they've invited me out to cover press events and things like that. Actually, this Saturday, I'm gonna be going down to Southern California covering event for Cars 3. So it's kind of a really fun hobby that's taught me a lot of skills, but it's also an outlet for my passions, which I guess you know something about as well. With podcasts.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Do they, like, pay for your expenses and fly you out and stuff?

Derrick Clements [00:06:39] Yeah. So when they have junkets at Pixar, Disney will pay for it. This time they didn't pay for it, but they invited me and they threw in a couple of tickets to Disneyland. I'm like, all right, yeah, that sounds pretty good. I guess Katie and I will drive down and have a nice weekend in Southern California.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] That's awesome. Well, cool. Well, Derek, you're doing great stuff, and it's been great to have you as kind of a cyber friend over the years.

Derrick Clements [00:07:06] Yeah.

Four Types of People in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:07:07] All right, so let's dig into the genesis of this interview, and I'm going to. I'll probably be a little bit vulnerable here because this kind of touches on some areas that are. That are close to my heart and probably a little raw. Okay. So I, you know, I spent. Obviously, I had my faith crisis back in, you know, 2000, 2001, and noticed how many people were struggling because of different aspects of the church. And that led me to leave Microsoft and start Mormon stories. And the whole purpose of Mormon stories really was to alleviate suffering.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] And of course, as soon as the podcast started, people started reaching out to me to tell me about divorces or depression or even suicidality because of the ways that kind of Mormonism can go bad. The weird thing for me is I never left Mormonism because it was bad for me. I felt like it was good for me, and I actually loved it.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] And even to the very end, they had to kick me out I didn't really want to leave because that's just been my experience. But I did realize there was so much pain out there that along the way, I got my PhD and wanted to study how to help people who were experiencing things like divorce or depression or anxiety or just a faith crisis. And it's just been kind of. It's kind of overwhelming and a little bit suffocating to be continually plugged into that audience of the people that, frankly, the church hurts or the church culture or the church people hurts in some way.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] And of course, there are the arguments that all organizations do harm, and I understand that. But being tapped into this pain and anger so continually sometimes causes me to kind of or allow it to cause me to kind of do an outburst on the Internet. And I would just say a few weeks or a month ago, I'm losing track of time. I ended up posting something that I post probably every year at least once with a little bit of an addendum. And I basically said something to the effect of, let's just be honest, there. There are four types of people that remain active in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Given all the, you know, evidence that the church isn't what it claims to be, whether it's the Book of Mormon and its historicity, whether it's the changing first vision narratives, whether it's, you know, the racism, sexism, homophobia, there are lots of different reasons the Book of Abraham, you could just decide that the church wasn't true. Think the evidence is overwhelming. That's my opinion.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] And so I basically made the assertion on Facebook that there are four types of people who remain in the church. The first group are people who are unaware of the problems. So, you know, I say that's the majority of Mormons, and that's just people who don't know about the multiple accounts of the first vision, who don't know about the polyandry, who don't know about the Book of Mormon historicity problems or the Book of Abraham problems.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] And so if we're not being kind, we can call them fooled or we can call them unaware. But that's the first group that I kind of asserted are active in the church. The second group I asserted are those who are unable to leave without some sort of massive disruption in their lives. And so that can be people who, let's just say they're in a marriage where if they leave the church, they'll be threatened with divorce. This is real. This happens all the time, and I see it all the time.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Or maybe they have a job where Their financial income is tied to Mormonism in some way, and it would be a massive financial hit if they left or they don't want to disappoint their parents or something that kind of leaves them trapped in the church. That's the second group, the third, and this is, again, I'm admitting that this is sort of going to be perceived as insulting by many who listen, but I hope you'll bear with me, because the purpose of this podcast is to challenge my assertions and to give an example of someone who basically defies or at least claims to defy these assertions.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] So please don't stay offended. Please bear with me as I talk about this. But the third category I'm saying are those who are just basically unsympathetic to the people the church harms. So maybe they're aware of the problems, maybe they aren't in a situation where they're kind of trapped and have to stay, but they just sort of say, you know what? Yeah, it sucks that the church harms gay and lesbian people.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] It sucks that the church. It maybe isn't great for women, but on the balance, it works for me. It's good for me, and so I'm maybe not as sympathetic to the people that the church harms. It works for me. It makes me feel better.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] It enriches my life. So that'd be the third group and then the fourth group. And this is something that my dear cousin Greta and others, Wendy Montgomery and others, have sort of reminded me of over the years. It's this group of people who. Who maybe don't believe the church is what it claims to be. And I'm not speaking specifically of Greta or any of those people, but I'm just saying in general, they kind of are aware of the problems. Maybe they don't view the church as being what it claims to be.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Maybe they could leave and it wouldn't be a massive disruption. Maybe even they, you know, maybe their life would be simpler in some ways if they left. And maybe they are deeply sympathetic to the people that the church harms, and that is the reason why they stay. They stay because they want to be a part of improving a church that harms people. And I would say it's probably a combination of they get something out of it, whether it's socially or familial or even spiritual, but also they stay to improve the church. So that's sort of a structure of framework that I put together in frustration to try and grapple with how some people remain in the church and Derek lovingly and patiently and sweetly challenged me on that Facebook post.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] And he basically said, hey, John, you know, those categories are, number one, maybe not kind or charitable. And number two, they don't fit me. They don't quite capture my experience. And there were several other people, Jerry Lee Renshaw and others, Greta, again, who just said, john, you're kind of missing something. And so I'm tired of having this war on Facebook. What I thought I'd do is bring Derek on and talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] And so that's Derek, why we're here. We're here to discuss all that. Do you want to jump? I don't want to start dealing with the issues because I want to jump back and tell a little bit about your story first. But is there anything you want to jump in and say maybe to correct the history or the lead up to this podcast? No.

Derrick Clements [00:14:38] I liked hearing that again. Yeah. And I think you did a good job summarizing the Facebook post. And thank you for inviting me on. I mean, when you asked me to come on, I was like, gosh, do I really have anything interesting to say? But I would love to talk. And I'm excited to dive into that stuff with you.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] So.

Derrick Clements [00:14:58] So, yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] Beautiful. All right, we've got a lot of live listeners. We actually have 107 people joined us live right now. A lot of people from Waka. So Jayna says, yay, Waka friends. Andrea writes, where's your shirt from, Derek? So I'm just gonna throw out.

Derrick Clements [00:15:12] Well, I said I'm a big Pixar fan and I'm wearing a kind of like. I think of it as like a Toy Story shirt. Cause it's got a bunch of, like, cacti on it. I'm trying to remember. I think I got it, like, at H and M or something. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Okay. Well, I love it. So thanks, listeners. For those who have posted questions, we love your questions, your comments. Please do post them, and I will make sure to do my best to incorporate those that I can. And of course, the wonderful Amy Grubbs is moderating the comments in case people get nasty. Because occasionally that happens. All right, Derek, so let's go back and let's give us the 1 to 2 minute background of your Mormon history, your Mormon upbringing.

Derrick's Background and Upbringing

Derrick Clements [00:15:55] Sure. So I was born in California in Lodi, California. I grew up in Stockton, California. And I was more into a Mormon family. And the youngest of six kids was Mormon my whole life and was pretty happy as a Mormon my whole life. Went to BYU at 18 or 17 or 18 years old. And as I mentioned earlier, I discovered podcasts. And your pod Mormon stories was, I think one episode in or two episodes in when I first heard it. There were a couple of other Mormon related. I just typed in Mormon in itunes and saw what came up. There were a couple others that came up and I had been aware of things like sunstone and other types of things, but in my head, the sunstone was something that I shouldn't read or there was something that was.

Derrick Clements [00:16:47] I knew there was some kind of stigma attached to it. I wasn't interested in learning about negative things about the church per se, but I also considered myself an open minded person. So I was like, yeah, I mean, whatever. I want to test my faith and I'm fine with criticism. And something that really appealed to me about your podcast in particular, John, was how you were just like, let's just investigate. Let's just openly discuss issues. And so there were a number of things that I learned about from Mormon stories that were really challenging to my faith but invigorating to my life.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] How old were you in 2005?

Derrick Clements [00:17:25] So I was, let's see. So this would have been, I think it was 2000, early 2006 when I started, and I would have been 8. I would have been 18.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] So this had been pre mission. Did you serve a mission?

Derrick Clements [00:17:36] Yeah. So this is pre mission? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay.

Derrick Clements [00:17:38] So I was a freshman at byu and I remember hearing one of your first podcasts, maybe it was the first one you told your story about your mission experience in Guatemala, right?

John Dehlin [00:17:48] That's right.

Derrick Clements [00:17:50] And about some missionaries that would baptize really young children, including some that were younger than 8. And I was just sick. My friends were going on missions at this time. I was getting ready to put my papers in, and that made me seriously not want to go on a mission, or it made me seriously question whether I wanted to invest in the church. And I felt like at that young age, even though my whole life had been devoted to the church or had been affiliated with the church, and it wouldn't have been easy to leave per se, but it would have been. I kind of felt like I hadn't yet made big commitments to the church.

Derrick Clements [00:18:27] And so I was happy that I was learning some of these more complicated, difficult issues, because what it did for me is it allowed me to, I don't know, a little bit more openly make a choice. And so I ended up trying to learn as much as I could about various controversial aspects of the church. And it led me at that time to a lot of reflection and study of scriptures as well as non scripture type stuff about Mormonism. And it was a really, I would say spiritually invigorating time of my life.

Derrick Clements [00:19:05] This idea and something that like I've come to understand, like come to experience throughout my life is that this, this experience of disillusionment and disenchantment can be a breaking, breaking open into something deeper and more beautiful.

Faith and Belief as a Missionary

John Dehlin [00:19:22] When you were serving your mission, did you consider yourself an orthodox believer? Were you like doubting your faith as a missionary? What was that like?

Derrick Clements [00:19:30] Yeah, so I mean I was doubting my faith before my mission and kind of, I've always been comfortable with my doubts or like make home with my doubts ever since then. But things have changed. I mean things that, that was 10 years ago or whatever. However it was and there's various different kind of touchstones throughout my Mormon, Mormon story. That first breaking open, I was still quite literal thinker thinking I'm less so now and but then, so yeah, throughout my mission I wouldn't say that I had a lot of doubts, but I would say that I was aware that the church and that church leaders and that missionaries could, could be mistaken and could do. I was, I was always trying to be cautious as a missionary that I wasn't going to fall into the traps that I had heard about of you know, manipulation and tactics of focusing on numbers all the time.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] So would you say I know the church is true as a missionary?

Derrick Clements [00:20:34] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] And kind of this is the one true church kind of rhetoric. Would that be a part of your missionary work?

Derrick Clements [00:20:40] I'm not sure that has ever really resonated with me that much because again, recognizing that the church wasn't perfect, I mean kind of learning for. Yeah, that was a thing that I learned, you know, that oh, the church, because I'd always say as a teenager or whatever, the people are not perfect, but the church is perfect. And pretty quickly before my mission I was like, oh actually the church isn't perfect and church leaders aren't perfect. And so I think that. But I definitely was of the mindset as a missionary that probably the Mormon Church was the best church. And that's another thing. I probably don't feel as much now.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] Okay. But probably not knee deep in the polyandry historicity stuff as a missionary probably.

Derrick Clements [00:21:29] I mean I was open to the idea that the Book of Mormon could be not a historical document. And I was definitely aware that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and also that there were in My view, like, not the great, not the greatest, like some creepy stuff. Right. I was kind of. I felt like I was aware of some of those issues, but I've never become like a huge scholar in any of those things, really.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Okay, but you made it through your mission without some major breakdown. You had a successful mission.

Derrick Clements [00:22:05] Yeah. In fact, all that stuff really helped my mission, I would say, because I just. I had. There were a couple of touchstones to my faith at that point where I was like, okay, this is about my faith, is about my relationship with God and about trying to access something that's greater than even the church, and how can I do that? So that mindset really helped me to connect with people and enjoy my mission quite a lot. So I really had a good experience with that.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] And again, where'd you go? Tell us again.

Derrick Clements [00:22:35] I went to Brazil.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Okay, so you're Portuguese. Portuguese speaking, yeah. Okay. All right, so fast forward from your mission to now. Just briefly characterize if you've changed at all.

Derrick Clements [00:22:47] Well, I would say the one thing that was the biggest, you know, again, this thing of disillusionment, I think, is not just something that happens once. It happens various times. And so there were very things that happened after my mission. The most immediate one was when my best friend Carrie, and he was also my roommate, came out to me. And before our missions, Carrie and I had talked a lot about.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] Came out as gay. Came out as gay, yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:23:14] Came out as gay. Yeah. And we talked often about, like, before a missions, like, man would be really hard to be gay and Mormon. And when he finally came out to me, he was like, Derek, remember when we talked about all those things that time? Like, I assumed you knew because I would say things like, yeah, it is hard.

Derrick Clements [00:23:32] And I just didn't. Didn't notice that that was what he was saying. But that. That coming out really gave it. I don't know, it again threw me into a place of. I need to really figure out what I. What I think, because I voted. I'm from California, mentioned. I voted for Proposition 8 that would ban California. I voted for Prop 8 and Obama in the same ticket.

Derrick Clements [00:24:02] I didn't think about it as much until again that following year. It was kind of one of those hypothetical things where it's like, oh, yeah, like, that doesn't really make sense. I would kind of not like it, but I would be like, I just didn't really. I didn't really think about it. I came from this kind of privileged position and didn't really think about it.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] And yeah, anyway, do you regret voting for it now?

Derrick Clements [00:24:25] Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] So if it came up again, you would not vote for.

Derrick Clements [00:24:29] Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. But so that again, just kind of made me question, like, okay, before my mission, I became comfortable with the idea that prophets maybe were wrong in the past. You know, like, I was of the opinion back then that the race and the temple ban and the priesthood ban was wrong, but there wasn't really anything of current policy or doctrine that I had a problem with until Kerry came out to me and I was like, okay, yeah, this, I actually don't agree with it. So that took however much time to figure out.

Derrick Clements [00:25:03] And, and then I would say, probably the next big thing, I may be forgetting something, but probably the next big thing is the policy change of 2015 where I had been, you know, because I've been active all this time and just feeling like it's, it is, the church is imperfect and I'm a Mormon. And this is, you know, there's things about it that I don't like, but there's things about it that I love. And.

Derrick Clements [00:25:28] But then the policy change was like, gosh, this, I really disagree with this policy change. And that was, I don't know, I actually, when that happened, I mean, that was many years later than what we've been talking about. But I called Kerry on the phone and I was like, I wanted to ask him specifically, like, can I be Mormon? Like, what do you think? Like, how would you feel? And I mean, it's not that I should place everything on his sort of moral authority, but I really wanted to know his perspective. And we had a conversation and he kind of relayed to me that like, yeah, I would be sad if you weren't Mormon.

Derrick Clements [00:26:07] And I think you can do good things from within the church and you can be Mormon. And I was like, okay, so that was kind of how that conversation went. But yeah, that's, that's. I guess those are kind of the main.

Derrick Clements [00:26:20] Oh, another, another kind of interesting thing. And I've actually told this story live at kind of a comedy show that we were part of. John. But I didn't watch R rated movies until I was in my early 20s because it was one of those things where I was like, I believe that a prophet has said you shouldn't watch R rated movies. And I wanted to follow the prophet. And so the very first R rated movie that I saw, I was like in my early 20s and it was the King Speech and I felt very much like God was okay with it. I felt very much like it was one of these moments in my life, and I've written about it in a forthcoming book that's gonna.

Derrick Clements [00:26:56] We're doing a book about Mormons and movies. But anyway, that was another touchstone because now, as I said, I'm a movie fan now. I watch a lot of movies and tons of movies, but that was another big touchstone in my life.

Navigating Faith Without a Major Crisis

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Okay, so there's never been a time where you've, like, totally gone inactive or had this massive faith crisis where you. Where you just decided the church wasn't true and harmed too many people and wanted to leave.

Derrick Clements [00:27:23] Right. I've always kind of felt like it would be a possibility that I could leave, but I've always felt committed to the church and committed to the community and the culture that I'm a part of and to the part of my own identity that is Mormon. And so, yes, it's never. I've always gone to church and I've always had callings. And for a lot of this time, actually, I was employed by the mtc. I was an MTC teacher for a number of years, about four years after my mission. And I taught institute pretty recently when I was single.

Derrick Clements [00:27:59] So I've been very active in participating. And I've always had a rule of thumb of not saying things that I don't believe. So in these settings where I'm teaching or where I think that's something that a lot of people that I've talked to get burnt out because they're in this cognitive dissonance space where they are saying things that they're uncomfortable with. So for me, like teaching institute, for example, sometimes those lessons were really difficult to prepare because I'd have to draw what I can fully get behind and what I can fully say with integrity, and how can I possibly avoid certain subjects or how can I focus on things that I feel impressed to focus on?

Derrick Clements [00:28:42] So that's kind of been one way that I've. That I've managed, I guess, is just being very committed to the idea of don't lie. You know, don't. Don't say anything that you don't believe.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] That's great. I think that's important. All right, let's take up. Let's pause for a second and incorporate some of the comments from our listeners. Oswaldo is joining us from Peru. Oswaldo writes, I remain active in the church because I have received a testimony directly from God about it, but I'm very disappointed with the LDS Church in my country, Peru. I would like to continue living in Peru, but that my I think certificate of membership be assigned to a ward in Salt Lake City where all the priesthood leaders are faithful members. Ideally sixth generation faithful LDs.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] That's interesting. So Oswaldo, thanks for sharing that perspective. I wonder to what extent you know, that would be true. All right. Anthony writes, I didn't have any idea about any of these things as a missionary. I think Anthony's meaning the historical truth claim stuff. I do think that would be challenging to be a missionary, knowing all the difficult things.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Melissa writes, hello from a former ward, a former Mormon and former ward choir member of Derek's. So you've got Melissa shout out from Melissa. Different. Melissa writes, I think it's amazing now how so much information is available via the Internet and podcasts. Our young people are so fortunate to have all this info about the church. She says she just eyed blindly as a youth for 25 plus years ago.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] Anthony writes, my wife can easily dismiss Brigham Young, but can't go any further. So that's interesting when people sort of like are willing to draw a line and say, yeah, Brigham was full of crud and Joseph was messed up, but everything after that's good, right? That's interesting. Chrissy. Chrissy writes that you were a phenomenal MTC teacher, Derek.

Derrick Clements [00:30:43] Oh, that's very nice.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] So I don't know if you remember, Chrissy might have been Sister Wilson at the time, maybe. Okay. Okay. So.

Derrick Clements [00:30:53] And I have a shout out too. I loved being a ward choir director. That was really, really fun. I would bake bread and bring it to the ward choir. And I have really good memories of that, that period.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Good. All right, Melissa, I'll read one more. Melissa writes, there's a third position in any organization. And I think she. She's talking about people who are in an orthodox or maybe out. She says there's a third position, those who are at the edge of the inside. These people are within the organization, but they're not subsumed by the group. Think they work at the boundaries, bridges and entrance ways. Would you. Would you say that characterizes you, Derek, or not? Not so much.

Derrick Clements [00:31:34] Yeah, I. That resonates a lot with me. I mean, I think, yeah, that that makes sense to my brain.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Yeah. Okay. All right. So I think that gives us a sense for your journey and I do think that's unique that someone could be a Mormon stories listener since 2006 and retain commitment in the church. I mean, I know there's a lot of you out there, but I haven't had a lot of conversations with you on the podcast. So this is interesting to me. I'm excited to kind of dig in. Cool. All right, Derek, So what I think I'll do, if it's okay, is I'll go back and I'll read through my categories.

Finding a Middle Way in Mormonism

Derrick Clements [00:32:13] Yeah, great.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] And I want you to, you know, you talked about honesty being really important.

Derrick Clements [00:32:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] So I want you to honestly assess the four categories and then we're going to dig into your, your beliefs and your practices as an active middle way Mormon and just talk about how you do it. Is that okay?

Derrick Clements [00:32:32] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] And I want to encourage listeners to provide their feedback. Alright. So category one is those who are unaware of the problems or you know, an uncharitable way to characterize that would be people who have been fooled. Obviously you don't fit into that category. Do you agree that a lot of people, that maybe the bulk of Mormons fit in this category? Would you characterize it in a more charitable way? What do you think?

Derrick Clements [00:33:00] Yeah, I don't know that I have an opinion on the bulk of Mormons, but I think to a certain degree I fit into all four categories. I think the four things that you listed all sound like some aspect of my experience at various times. I think the overall criticism that I, that I would have sort of had or that I, that I gave was that I didn't feel like they, any, anyone in particular or all of them together summed up, you know, was the whole experience of it. But yeah, when I was, I mean, when I was younger, I was unaware of a lot of things and, and I'm still unaware of many, many things.

Derrick Clements [00:33:39] So I definitely have. And there's, I mean, there's systematic things with this. Right. There's, there's things that the church has consciously decided as an institution in its curriculum to avoid talking about. And so that, that's something that is somewhat changing, very slowly changing and I think in a positive direction. But the idea that there are people that are Mormon who are unaware of negative and complicated and morally ambiguous or downright morally wrong aspects, I think there are many reasons why Mormons might be unaware. And so, yeah, I think that definitely is true.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Okay. Yeah. I think if, I mean, tell me if you agree that if we, if we were able to grab the attention of every Mormon out there in the whole world and said, hey, there's five things you should know, you know, and we told them, you know, Joseph had 30 wives and you know, a bunch of them were married to other men at the time and he lied about it. You know, that's point one, point two is, you know, anachronisms in the Book of Mormon and plagiarisms and stuff. And then part three is the Book of Abraham and the translation stuff and the Peepstone and the hat and the. Joseph didn't look at the plates and. And the racism both in the Book of Mormon and with the African Americans, and we just kind of went through. There'd be a lot of people shocked, wouldn't you say?

Derrick Clements [00:35:14] I think so. Although I do think that that's favoring the intellectual aspect of it. I think that a lot of people are Mormon because of something else, and I think a lot of people leave Mormonism because of something else, too. Those historical problems and those intellectual issues with the faith. I'm not so sure how many Mormons experience Mormonism intellectually as opposed to somewhere else in their body. And so I think that's important to point out, too.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] No, that's a great point, Derek. I do think that conversion is an emotional experience, and I think retention is an emotional and a social experience. I think pretty much most, if not all religions, you have an emotional conversion and a social conversion, and that's what keeps you. So what I'm. What I'm more kind of saying is, is that sometimes learning these details can be enough to sort of jar someone and have them say, okay, I feel good at church and the people are nice, but if this is really our history, then that doesn't square.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Number one, I haven't been told the truth. And number two, this is a problem. If Joseph was lying about, you know, being married to 30 women and a bunch of them were teenagers, I can't, you know, so you can understand that even though people's conversion or retention or participation or emotional or spiritual and social. Would you acknowledge that those intellectual issues could become stumbling blocks for many people if they were made aware of them?

Derrick Clements [00:36:51] I mean, based on my experiences and friends, yes, definitely. And also, so could social structures and people of color and people with various gender identities or sexual identity, sexual orientations. Those things have nothing to do. Those aspects of a person's identity have nothing to do with those intellectual issues. But I think that maybe even more than the intellectual issues, the ability that the church or the current makeup of the church's infrastructure, I think can also. There's many stumbling blocks. Intellectual, social.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Yeah, and we'll talk about those. Those groups in point three. So the second. Okay, so. And I love that you framed that. You're in all these. I think we are in all these. But I agree that they don't capture everyone's experience. So I think it's important that we're having this dialogue.

Derrick Clements [00:37:46] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] So the second group that I. That I see all the time, you know, it's a dentist or an orthodontist or a, you know, a business person who, you know, has a business tied to Mormonism. And they're worried. Let's just say they live in Utah and they're worried if I leave the church, it'll be a massive financial disruption or their spouse will leave them, or they'll disappoint their parents or they'll lose all their friends. And so in some sense, they feel I've got no choice. I just have to fake it, I have to lie, and I have to hide what I really think and feel because the disruption in my life would be too significant. Do you personally know people like that or in that situation?

Derrick Clements [00:38:36] Yeah, Well, I think I've known missionaries that have taken that approach, that maybe other missionaries who were uncomfortable various. Various aspects of the church, but just kind of decided, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna fake it till you make it kind of thing. And I've seen that be harmful to a person's inner happiness. And I think that can be really uncomfortable position to be in.

Derrick Clements [00:39:00] I also. Yeah, I mean, I also experienced that to one degree in myself of. As. As an employee of the mtc, I had to have a temple recommend. And so, you know, I. That never. There was never any contradiction that that would have prevented that for me personally.

Derrick Clements [00:39:21] But I was acutely aware of the discomfort that I felt about that. I was. Because, frankly, I loved working at the mtc and I would. I would love. I considered pursuing. I had opportunities and considered to pursue. Maybe I should just stay there at the MTC and do. And have my career with the church. But as much as I loved it, I was uncomfortable with the idea of building, you know, a life and a career and a. And a livelihood on my religious faith. So. Because what? Because anything can happen, right? You could believe different things at any point. So I was. I wasn't comfortable with that kind of. I didn't want to put myself in a corner in that way. So that's kind of.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say I see this all the time. I had one of my podcast listeners who reached out to me. He was in a bishopric, and he felt over time that he'd be lying if he continued being in the bishopric because he didn't really believe anymore and felt like he was misrepresenting something that he Couldn't support. So he told his wife that he no longer believed. And she literally said, I want a divorce. Like is the immediate reaction. And his reaction was to say, okay, well, I'm gonna go back and hide and lie and stay in the bishopric and just say things I don't believe because I love my wife and I love my children and I see this maybe on a weekly basis. And so that's the foundation, my category.

Derrick Clements [00:41:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] And so, you know, you said you can relate to it. Maybe you haven't seen that in your own life as much.

Derrick Clements [00:41:06] Yeah, I can relate to it. I'm actually. John, I'd love to ask you a question, if I could. Do you feel that way at all in Europe? Because I have a lot of sympathy for like, people in the church office building or people, you know, that are tied, their careers are tied, their lives are based on this spiritual work. And you kind of fit into that category too. I mean, what, what would happen if you decided, you know, I just don't care about Mormonism anymore, I don't want to do this. I mean, that would kind of be disruptive for in your life, wouldn't it, in kind of a similar way?

John Dehlin [00:41:35] No, that's a great, that's a great question. The truth is, and sometimes I get in trouble for saying this is I had a super lucrative career prior to doing Mormon stories. As you know, I worked for Microsoft and then I worked for mit and I could be, you know, I could be doing very, very well with very happy, fulfilling jobs. You know, I saw too many Frank Capra movies when I was at byu. And one of the Frank Capra movies I saw was called you'd Can't Take it with youh. And the main, the main theme of that movie is what's the point of living if you can't love and enjoy and believe in what you do?

Derrick Clements [00:42:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] And so I feel, and I could be self deluded, I feel like I'm very principle or ethically driven in what I do. I feel like I've seen, I personally experienced the suffering and the difficulty of a transition. Now I've witnessed it with tens of thousands of people. And so I'm committed to helping people and supporting people in that transition. So in some sense, yes, I've invested now 12 years and a PhD and a master's degree in instructional technology in this field. But I can tell you, here's my answer to you, Derek, if at some point I decided that I felt like we weren't doing good, there wasn't a need or that I was doing more harm than good. I'm the type of personality where I would become depressed and broken if I kept doing it.

Derrick Clements [00:43:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] And so I don't, you know, so maybe it would be hard to transition at age 47 to a completely different field. But the truth is I've got a PhD in the equivalent of two masters. I know a lot of, I've got a lot of technical skills, I've got a lot of friends. I think I could carve out a new career.

Derrick Clements [00:43:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] So maybe I'm self deluded, but I think I'm doing this because I believe in it. I don't know.

Derrick Clements [00:43:27] I think that answers my question and I think that a lot of people, I mean, I'm of the generation where people don't stick with careers for a long time. Right. I mean, I think that there's a sort of secular metaphor for this particular point on your list of like when disruptive things come into our brains and into our lives, it can shake up a whole bunch of things. Relationships, careers. A lot of things can make it really hard when disillusionment or disruption happens of various kinds.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Yeah. But I love that you asked the question and ask me more.

Derrick Clements [00:44:00] Okay, cool.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Let's tune into some listener comments. Melissa writes, we have a friend who secretly talks to us about the church's truth claims. If the spouse found out, a divorce would happen. So sad. So Melissa's saying she, she knows someone who falls in that category. Barbara writes, I faked belief until I finally knew I had to be true to myself. Life eventually became much better, made new like minded friends. So that's what Barbara experienced. Davey writes, I'm another equally longtime Mormon Stories listener and Derek is my bestie. So you know Davey.

Derrick Clements [00:44:33] Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Davey says, I've had the opposite experience of many of my friends who have left the church. I totally understand leaving the church over all kinds of historical, ethical, theological, cultural, or any other kinds of issues. And I honor and respect that choice. I think every person's life takes a different path to God, whatever God is. My experience, however, was that once I started to learn about Mormon history and Joseph Smith, that's when I got excited about Mormonism. I'd grown up with the whitewashed version of Mormonism and that was problematic. He writes, more messy and exciting and dangerous and true to my own experience with spirituality in all those ways. That's a really interesting perspective. So for Davey, learning about the mess was validating because Davey experienced a messy existence. And so it was in some ways invigorating. And affirming. And that's. What do you think about Davey's response? Derek?

Derrick Clements [00:45:25] Yeah, I love that. And I think in particular there are so many things, like there's so many things. I think this is part maybe what he's getting at too, that Joseph Smith was this kind of radical thinker in a lot of ways and was this great like socialist and this open minded and open hearted kind of person, sometimes to a fault. And I think there's a lot of exciting and fringier aspects that are in our Mormon history that church curriculum has brushed away or has emphasized less. But I've heard other people as well echo what Davey has said, people that are both active and inactive. Like, yeah, there's so much to our early stories that are exciting and there's a BYU professor that I've heard talk about that as well. Yeah, I love that perspective.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] Yeah. I'll read one more really quick. Tracy writes, I think it's so sad when a spouse tells their partner divorce is on the table when they lose their testimony of the gospel. Why can't some people separate their love for their life partner with their love of their religion? Traci It's a great question. I'll just say when people get married, there's a contract within Mormonism which is you will be committed to the church and in some ways Christ and the gospel becomes the intermediary between the couple and the marriage. And so the answer to your question is when somebody breaks that contract, it's devastating to the believer.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] And they basically say, I want to go to the social kingdom. I want all my kids in the social kingdom. And you broke the contract. And so if you're not going to take me and our kids to the celestial kingdom, I'll find a worthy person who will. It's actually a consistent mindset. It's one that makes perfect sense. It's just super tragic, I think. What do you think, Derek?

Derrick Clements [00:47:18] Yeah, it's really sad in those situations. I just can't imagine how difficult that would be. I think it's really unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Yeah. Okay. The third category that I listed as we, as we jousted a little bit online and let me pull it up really quickly. The third category is those who are unempathetic to the church, to the, to those that the church harms. So of course, you know, we know that if you're LGBT at best, you've got a 30% chance of remaining in the church because the church in some ways has declared war on LGBT people, or at least LGBT people who want to be in loving, committed, same sex relationships.

Identity, Tribe, and Mormon Belonging

John Dehlin [00:48:01] If you're a feminist and it really bothers you that men pretty much lead and govern and control the church for the most part, that can feel damaging. If the sexual messages that the church puts on youth and on women and on young boys bothers you, that can cause a lot of pain and sadness. Or if you're a person of color and you find your skin color to be denigrated or, you know, talked about as dark and as loathsome or as a sign of wickedness, you know, it makes sense why there aren't a bunch of, you know, educated people of color, you know, flocking to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] It makes sense that LGBT people leave. It makes sense that feminists, you know, tend to leave the church, probably more than stay. But, you know, what do you make? What sense do you make, Derek, of the people who know about the LGBT suicides, who know about the ways the church harms women, who know about the racism?

John Dehlin [00:49:09] And they just decide. It works for me. Is there. This is a really tough category, but is there a group of Mormons who are active that are just like, yeah, sucks for all those people, but it works for me, so I'm staying?

Derrick Clements [00:49:24] Yeah. And one caveat I would say I might disagree with you. I think there are a bunch of people of color that are educated that are Mormon too, for various complicated reasons.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] But I said flocky to the church. So, yeah, if you're raised in it, if somehow you were brought into it, But I wouldn't say there are a lot of educated people of color joining the church through missionary efforts. That's all I'd say.

Derrick Clements [00:49:49] Yeah, possibly this is a tough, as you said, this is a tough one because I have to recognize that I fit in this category in some way, even though I spend a lot of my religious imagination and my spiritual imagination concerned with the people for whom the church doesn't fit very well, if at all.

Derrick Clements [00:50:12] But even somebody like me who has spoken out in various public forums in support of LGBT issues and LGBT people, but, like, I'm a privileged person. So I think a big thing that this third question gets at is privilege. And the fact that I am who I am means that Mormonism isn't as difficult for me as it is for many other people. So I don't know, maybe there are some even, as you say, who are as callous as, like, oh, I don't care about other people. I mean, maybe that exists, but I think probably what's more common and certainly what resonates with me is recognizing that because of my privilege, I have an easier time.

Derrick Clements [00:51:00] And so there are a number of. I don't know. I think that means something for the way that I engage with Mormonism. And it's something that I don't think I have a good answer for. Answer to. But I try to wrestle with this because I have to.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Yeah, well, I appreciate you being vulnerable and honest and open about that. I'm not asserting that there's a bunch of Mormons out there that just are indifferent to the pain and suffering of others, but I think your comment about privilege really makes sense if you're white, middle to upper class, educated, definitely male, straight, cisgender. You know, if you have brothers and, you know, sisters and parents and, you know, ancestors, all in the church and it's where your social group is sort of tied, it's gonna be a lot easier to remain Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] And those. You know, the suffering of people of color, the suffering of LGBT people, is probably gonna be drowned out in some sense by all the benefits you get from being part of the. Of the institution. And I like. I like. I know that you're not the type of person that just doesn't care about those people, and I know that you do. And I know that a lot of people, like my cousin Greta, she's passionately caring about LGBT people, and she's. And Whitney Montgomery talked to me about this too. They're in the pews every Sunday fighting for that LGBT youth, helping them feel loved and accepted and supported.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] And that takes us to the fourth category. But I'm just saying that I appreciate your acknowledgment that privilege plays an important role in one's ability to sort of assess the truth claims, assess the harm, and decide. Works enough for me that I'm gonna stay engaged anyway.

Derrick Clements [00:52:59] Yeah. And one thing I think this leads to is something that I've been thinking about a lot with this idea of how the church works or doesn't work for me or for various other people. I'm also not. I'm not sure that I would say that I am involved in the church because it works for me. Like, there's an assumption underneath that that is my relationship with the church is based on something that I'm getting out of church, because while I fit in many categories that make me privileged in church, I also, because of various beliefs that I have and sort of not very many lifestyle things, mostly beliefs.

Derrick Clements [00:53:36] But I don't fit into, like, the super orthodox cookie cutter thing. So it's not necessarily that I Don't like thinking about my participation as a Mormon as get out something out of it, whether it's spiritual or whether it's social.

Derrick Clements [00:53:53] I tend to think of it more in terms of identity and just like coming in, being truly harmonious with my integrity as who I am and figuring out what that means, who I am. So while I do think that question three or point three definitely applies and I have to be very conscious of it, I also kind of want to undermine the premise of it. That is people should go to the church that fits best for them, because I probably don't go to the church that fits best for me. There are probably a whole host of churches that probably fit better with me, but that's not fully why I am Mormon, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:54:30] That's interesting. What I hear you kind of saying is that there's almost a tribal cultural identity element which. Which is true. And it makes perfect sense where it's like, it may not be easiest, it may not be the best fitting, but it's who I am. It's like family almost.

Derrick Clements [00:54:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] You don't. Just because your dad may be not nice or you don't always get along with your siblings, you don't bail from your family.

Derrick Clements [00:54:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] We're tribal creatures. They say a lone monkey is a dead monkey. Right. You just, you stay in your tribe and there's loyalty and there's identity. Is that correct?

Derrick Clements [00:55:02] Exactly. That's exactly. And it's not just. When I hear people talk about this sometimes I bristle when. When it's simplified to community. It's not just that I like my ward. I like my ward. In fact, I really like my ward. But it's not just that I like my ward. And there's various aspects of wards that I've been in where I haven't really liked going to church. So it's not about the community per se, but it is, as you say, this deeper thing of identity of looking inside myself, who I am, how I understand the world, how I see things. It's Mormon and I'm Mormon. And so, yes, it goes deeper than just community.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] I think that's a really important insight. And to be honest, I still feel that way. I still very much. I still very much feel Mormon. I love the hymns, I love the music, I love the people. I love the culture. Obviously, I can't get enough of it. And I would even say the work I do is kind of a. Is a sign of love for the Mormon people and my upbringing.

Derrick Clements [00:56:01] Totally, totally. And I think people could be in the church and active in the church. Going to church on Sundays with that attitude, as I do, but also could be outside of the church and have that attitude. I mean, identity is not something that other people can control. It's even, yeah, I mean, identity comes from within and it's not something that is. It's funny, I recently wrote a column because even though I'm an entertainment reporter, I also have an opportunity to write kind of about whatever I want every now and then at the newspaper here in Provo. And my most recent column that ran on a Sunday was about.

Derrick Clements [00:56:35] I was just asserting that I believe it'd be great if prophets and apostles in the LDS Church could retire. And it kind of blew up the readership of the Daily Herald. There were a lot of people that were commenting, this guy says he's Mormon, but he's obviously not Mormon. And like, you can't question that. You can't quite like, this is a policy that God himself instituted. And it's just, I find it very odd when, when other people that don't know me are asserting, are trying to police my identity as a Mormon. But I understand, I mean, I understand it and it's, it's, it happens all the time.

Derrick Clements [00:57:10] But that was the time that it happened most recently for me where it's like, I mean, people are saying, I'm not Mormon. Okay, I'm not Mormon to you. I'm Mormon to the primary kids I work with every Sunday. You know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Yeah, that's really.

Derrick Clements [00:57:22] And I'm not asserting to be a great Mormon or a good Mormon. I'm just, I'm Mormon, you know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [00:57:26] I love it. I love it. All right, Derek, let's go to just a few comments from our listeners. Ashley writes, thanks for sharing your thoughts so much if this resonates with me and why I choose to stay. So a positive shout out from Ashley. Thanks, Ashley. Steven writes, church as identity is exactly right. When you grow up in a tradition and experience many good things, you can't just get divorced from it on an intellectual basis. I think that's why we're listening to an ex Mormon talking about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Joanna Brooks used to say, Mormonism doesn't wash off, you know, and that's true. I think it's true. That's why so many post Mormons are still very Mormon, just in different ways. If only every. Jessica writes, if only every orthodox religious person could be as open minded and fringe as these two men.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Oh, the thing just moved as these Two men. But unfortunately, there are the exception. Well, Jessica, I don't think the church would be super healthy or strong if the church were made up of people just like me and Derek. Yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:58:30] I don't know, because they need people

John Dehlin [00:58:32] to do all the other types of callings that probably Derek and I wouldn't want to do.

Derrick Clements [00:58:36] We'd have really cool. I mean, I don't know. I don't know necessarily, but we'd have really cool discussions. I think we'd have good.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] There'd be some fun things if anyone would show up. Josh writes, I love the community and miss the community a lot. Actually, something that I saw a little bit farther down when we left this is David, when we left, family chose church over family. It was and still is devastating. We are outsiders now, and no one respects us and fears us. It's really damaging. So, I mean, I do think it's, you know, probably a thousand years ago, you leave your tribe, you're. You're dead. Either they kill you or you're alone on the prairie and someone kills you. And in many ways, people experience a social and a familial death.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] And I just think. I think we're in denial if we don't acknowledge that there's a real penalty for leaving the tribe and that's. There's a positive reason to want to be identified with the tribe. But there's also sometimes really severe punishments for leaving the tribe.

Derrick Clements [00:59:42] Yeah, definitely true. Yeah, I would say so. That makes sense. And it's another place that I'm privileged in that I have, you know, great family members and stuff that I've never felt. I disagree with some of my family members on various aspects, but I'm lucky in that nobody has ever kind of threatened disowning me or anything like that. And I'm. I have a great marriage, and there's just a lot of ways that I'm privileged in this way.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Do you feel like your spouse would be disappointed if you left the church?

Derrick Clements [01:00:12] I mean, it's kind of a complicated. Yeah. Yes and no. I mean, it's. She'd have to come on and talk about it. We see very similarly in a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] How about your parents and siblings? Would they be disappointed?

Derrick Clements [01:00:24] Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think they would ever stop loving me, and I think that they would always respect me. I think that some are disappointed now about how fringy I am. I don't know. And then others, I think, are really, really Happy that I'm, as was mentioned earlier, kind of the fringe in group, like. So I don't know. I think, certainly. But yeah, anyway. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Could it affect your job if you just left the church? Could it affect your job, do you think?

Derrick Clements [01:00:54] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Your readership doesn't need Mormon writers necessarily.

Derrick Clements [01:00:58] I mean, I cover arts and entertainment people. I write in my. I do a lot of movie reviews, and people are sometimes coming. I commented, sometimes people disagree with the ideology that I have underneath my reviews, and they say things like, this writer has a wrong worldview and things like that. I recently got a comment that was like, I'm not gonna let my grandparents or parents or siblings read any of more of your reviews. And there wasn't anything religious or anything in there, so I don't know. I don't know why. But, I mean, people will. People will say what they're gonna say, and I don't think it would affect.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Awesome. Okay, so let's talk quickly about the fourth category, and then I kind of want to dive into. Kind of dive into your particular lived experience for just a bit. I want to thank all the listeners for their comments. Oh, really quickly. This will just be like a break in the program. I made the announcements about the events at the beginning of the show.

The Middle Way Mormon Series

John Dehlin [01:01:56] This interview with Derek represents a little series that I'm doing. So. So we've had good experiences with the different series that we've done on Mormon stories. So, for example, we did a series last year on missionaries who came home early from their missions. If you haven't checked out that series, it was phenomenal. It was brilliant. Recently, we did a series on the transgender experience within Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Wonderful people we've interviewed. We also did a series on people's experiences with general authorities that a lot of people really liked and valued. Derek, my interview with you kicks off a series that I want to do on kind of, you know, middle way Mormonism. So we hope to have some of the people from a Thoughtful Faith on, which is the support group on Facebook that supports people who are trying to make Mormonism work. Maybe Jerry Lee Renshaw, maybe Mark Crago, maybe others. We want to do that.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] We want to do a dive into apologetics, because apologetics is a significant way that people stay. There's a really sharp guy that I met recently named Bert Fuller, who has expressed a willingness to come on. He was engaged with the Maxwell Institute for quite a while and was really involved in Mormon apologetics, sort of at the BYU level. I want to have Bert on to talk about his experiences. And then finally recently there's this group called faith matters that faithmatters.org that did a little seminar at Utah State University on Joseph Smith and the translation process, where they're basically trying to more deeply explore what the word translation means as it relates to the Book of Mormon, the book of Abraham, etc.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] And I'm hoping to bring on Jonathan Streeter, Jamie Hannis Handy, and Bert Fuller to do a critique of that seminar because I think it's important that we take a hard look at apologetics and whether it's ethical, etc. So that's going to be a series that we're kicking off with this interview, Derek. And so I appreciate you coming on. I'll also do a quick shout out to the series that we've been doing on what we're calling Losing the Lamanites. So we've interviewed a brilliant woman from Brazil who grew up in Brazil and then immigrated to the United States. And we've done an interview with Hiram Joe, a Navajo who was raised in the church here in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] If you were raised being taught that you were a Lamanite and that your dark skin was due of a curse from a people that lived a thousand years ago who lived in America or 2,000 years ago, and you don't love that part of your upbringing and the identity that was handed to you, we might be interested in having you on. So this is sort of a commercial break where I just kind of set up and introduce this series that we're having on Middle Way Mormonism with you, Derek, but also let people know about past series and ongoing series. So any quick comments on that, Derek? Have you checked out any of those episodes so far?

Derrick Clements [01:05:05] No, I haven't. I haven't heard those. But I've been really impressed with stuff that Gina has done on that topic recently. She had a number of guests on discussing Native American perspectives and indigenous perspectives of Mormonism. I think, gosh, that's a perspective that I really want to hear because their lived experience of Mormonism is different and interesting and in many ways different from mine.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] Yeah. All right. Well, Derek, the last category is the category of people who are trying to stay in the church to alleviate or minimize the suffering caused by the church to the, to the, you know, gays, feminists, intellectuals, you know, people of color, etc. To what extent does that fit with you? Do you resonate with that or not really?

Derrick Clements [01:05:52] I do, I do, but kind of with some caveats because I just, I want to be a help in wherever I can, kind of in a theoretical way. And by speaking truthfully at all times. I feel like I am doing that. But I mean, yeah, like, I. That's not, It's, It's. That's not. Yeah, I guess just what we've talked about so far. There's, there's. There's a whole host of reasons that. That one definitely resonates with me. I would hope that I can. You know, when I was an institute teacher, I hope that the perspective that I offered could be helpful to various people, and it is one reason why I stay Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:06:40] Do you ever, for example, if something incorrect is said in Sunday school, correct it. If something homophobic is said, say, hey, we shouldn't talk like that. Do you feel comfortable correcting members when they say something harmful or inaccurate?

Derrick Clements [01:06:59] Right. And I think that's a good question because I don't know. I don't think as often as I. As I wish I did. I don't know that it happens as often, like all that often necessarily. Especially right now.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] It's awkward, right? It's awkward. It's painful. People don't. Like. Makes you feel crappy.

Derrick Clements [01:07:20] Yeah. I'm also really comfortable letting people believe what they believe. And so, so it's not very often that I hear what I think is actually something actually harmful happening. And I don't know. I hope that I could have courage to speak up, and I hope that I could, but those things require social capital, too. It's going to be helpful, I think. You have to have some level of being able to be heard by the group. And again, because I'm a privileged person, I should be doing that probably more often than I am. It's something that I would like to have more courage to do. And I don't know. Yeah, it's on a one, on one basis. I do it a lot more than, like, raising my hand in a group or something. I mean, if it's soft enough, I will do it, but it's hard to do it when it's really, really difficult.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] That's.

Derrick Clements [01:08:10] I think it's an easiest statement.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] Yeah, it's tough. It's tough to do. I never found a comfort level doing that. I just tended to stay quiet, you know?

Derrick Clements [01:08:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] All right, so those are the four categories, and I think we've identified one major whole, which is just identity Tribal Mormons. I think that's a significant failing in my framework. But I'm guessing that there are some other things that draw you to Mormonism as well. Why don't we just take a second. Are there any other categories that. That inform your engagement with the church? One that comes to mind is just spiritual.

Derrick Clements [01:08:53] Sure. Yeah. We really haven't talked about that, have we?

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Are you spiritually edified at church or as a Mormon?

Derrick Clements [01:09:01] Yeah, yeah, definitely both. Both, yeah. At church and as a Mormon. Not all the time in either category. And there's definitely moments of. One of my favorite movies of any. Of any sort of recent years is Silence, the Martin Scorsese film Silence. I don't know if you've seen that one, John.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] I've not seen it, no.

Derrick Clements [01:09:21] You gotta check it out.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Isn't it not many people. Japanese monks. Is that right? Yeah.

Derrick Clements [01:09:24] So it's about European missionaries who go to Japan to convert Japanese people. And it's about Japanese Christians and about the experiences that they have. But thematically it's larger. It's largely about the idea of God's silence and idea about apostas and what it means to respect God. And what it means to respect God, sometimes even through defying the tangible icons of God that you might have as a church or in church.

Derrick Clements [01:09:58] But it also deals with just the long stretches of time when a very devout person might experience the silence of God. And so I really resonated with that a lot. Because throughout my life I have had moments and periods, stretches of time where I have felt very close to what I would imagine as God. And I feel very close to spirituality and spiritual light. And at other times I haven't. And those periods really don't correlate very much with how obedient I am being, necessarily.

Derrick Clements [01:10:37] It's just, I think sometimes the way that I understand God, I think sometimes there's just silence that is part of the thing. And so, yes, my life, yeah, I've had many, many times that God has meant something or other to me at different times, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Yeah. But are there parts of your lived experience that spiritually edify you, like hymns or teaching the kids? Or would you say that it's spiritually edifying at times?

Derrick Clements [01:11:11] Yeah. So I would say something that I really practiced on my mission was, I guess maybe a way to say this would be listening to the spirit or trying to listen to the spirit through a lens of integrity and through a lens of trying to really be internal with myself, listening as carefully to myself as to some. Whatever external spirit might be. And I think both are hard to hear and both are based on sort of my own constructs in my mind, of course. But I have had many times, including many Times recently of just a feeling of direction or of comfort. But. Yeah, not comfort. Yes, but really direction where I feel inspired to do something or to say something. I was inspired to share my testimony yesterday at church, and I really did feel something within me.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] I had asked you about your spiritual edification as a Mormon, and the last thing I remember hearing is that sometimes you feel like you receive guidance or direction or inspiration, you know, through your engagement with Mormonism or through the church. Is that right?

Derrick Clements [01:12:30] Yes. Yeah, I would say so. So certainly my engagement with the church is what is the framework that I view it, but, you know, who knows what it is? I just. I feel like I'm a spiritual person, and I have tapped into that. I was mentioning just before we cut off about how, as a student in my biology class at byu, the stuff that we were talking about, about evolution and about just life, really inspired me and filled me with wonder.

Derrick Clements [01:13:04] And so it's not just. I mean, of course, that was a BYU context, but it was just pure, straight, real science. You know, it's just biology. And I felt just as much edification in that as a church meeting or, as I mentioned, I'm very interested in the arts, and I have been moved by films and by novels in ways that mirror the ways in which I've been moved and inspired at church. So it's all I see the Mormon aspect of it is just because that's the lens that I see everything. But I seek inspiration and spiritual light kind of wherever I can get it, and I can find it in various places.

John Dehlin [01:13:47] So this idea of supplementing, you supplement whatever spiritual edification you get from Mormonism with lots of other sources.

Derrick Clements [01:13:54] Well, I mean, in a very Mormon way. I don't really think of it as supplementing. I just think of it. Mormonism is the lens, and I just will learn whatever I can from wherever I can learn it, you know?

John Dehlin [01:14:04] Yeah. And you can probably find quotes from Joseph Smith or Gordon B. Hinckley about drawing on truth and wisdom from wherever it comes. Is that right?

Derrick Clements [01:14:12] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Okay. So we've. So the idea with this segment was to sort of. Was to sort of look at categories that I had left out of my framework, from being misled or deceived to being stuck or trapped, to, you know, staying in to help make the church better. Or. What was the third? Oh. Or not being sensitive to those who experienced pain or suffering. You added tribalism, you know, being a tribal identity Mormon. And you entered. You. You offered spirituality. Are there any other major categories that sort of try to captivate why you remain engaged?

Derrick Clements [01:15:00] Well, only. Only to say that. And part of the impetus for me adding to the, to the conversation initially in that Facebook post was to just say, I think categories are useful in. And I think we've had a great discussion so far talking about the various categories that you outlined and how those all apply. But I also just think, I don't know, categorization is often reductive. And that from the Mormons that I know, I'm not sure that I fully understand enough well enough or presume to understand well enough why they're Mormon. I just think there's lots of Mormons and there's lots of ways to be Mormon. And so, yeah, I think the categories we've talked about are good, and I can't really think of any other broader ones. But I would just throw that caveat that the idea of categorization itself may be suspect in some ways.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] Sure, sure. Because it never fully captures any one human experience. But I do think, can I push back a little bit and say, aren't there people trapped? Aren't there people misled? Like, can't these categories be useful in categorizing people's experiences, just maybe not in a comprehensive way?

Derrick Clements [01:16:11] Yes, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Yeah. It's both. Okay.

Derrick's Personal Beliefs Explored

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 753

John Dehlin [00:00:29] All right, so now I want to jump to maybe the second part of this interview, which is how your own lived experience, you know, how you do it. And there's a great article that you sent me that says what remains when disbelief is gone. Question mark. You also sent me several other articles, so I just want to mention to. To Amy or to Cody, whoever's, you know, moderating, to make sure. Let's get from Derek the links to his articles, because I think they're well written and I think people are going to appreciate them, and I think they'll help listeners supplement what they hear from Derek, you know, as they're trying to figure out their own experience.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] But let's just start with the church's sort of core beliefs. And I guess what I want to do is take you through what your actual beliefs are. But in the article that you sent me, you sort of started the article with a pretty interesting approach to the truth claims. Do you want to characterize it or do you want me to try and characterize it for you?

Derrick Clements [00:01:37] Yeah, go ahead and I'll fill in if I.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Okay. So when I read the article, what remains When Disbelief has Gone. First of all, I think that's an interesting title because I expected it to say When Belief is Gone. But what you're basically saying is, you know, what I got from the article is you're basically saying there are all sorts of testable things that one could base their testimony on, and in your view, you've lost any interest basing your testimony on any of those things.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] So whether or not there is an anthropomorphic God, you're kind of not as interested whether or not the Book of Mormon is historical, you're kind of not as interested. And so that's a really radical thing to begin with because to Joseph Smith, you know, the way he talked about it, he was very literalistic in how he talked about the church's truth claims, that he literally saw God in Jesus, that he literally translated the plates, that this was literally God's one true church. And you're basically saying you're not interested in any of that stuff. Now, is that a fair summary of what I read from your. From your position with the church?

Derrick Clements [00:02:53] Yeah, I would say there's a. Yeah, that is a pretty fair summary. And I'll just throw in, I mentioned the article, but the title that I got, and you pointed out why I like that title, because it's like, oh, that's kind of different from what you'd expect. I didn't make it up it comes from a poem by Philip Larkin. It's a line in that poem that really stuck. So I explained that more in the article. But, yeah, I think that's about right. I'm not as interested in any of those testable, testable claims because I don't know. That's not where faith exists in my body. That's not what it is.

Derrick Clements [00:03:28] And so I kind of came to this realization many years ago that I was disillusioned about certain aspects of. Of church history and church theology and doctrine. And that could happen again at any point. And so I need to make sure that, as, you know, as scripture says, build your faith on, or build yourself on the rock. There's a lot of that kind of imagery throughout the scriptures of sure foundations, as opposed to rocky foundations. And I just frankly find history and intellectual issues and shaky rock. Now, I think that that differs from the way that many church leaders have gone about it. I think that there are many church leaders who have said, the rock, the sure rock is.

Derrick Clements [00:04:16] You know, these claims, these things. Joseph either saw God. I had a test as a BYU student in one of my religion classes, and one of the. I thought it was so ridiculous. One of the questions was, list the things that are. It's like multiple choice. Circle the things that we learn, the important truths that we learned from the first vision. And one of them was that God has a tangible, physical body. And I just looked at that and I was like, all right. I mean, I guess that's the right answer. So I'm going to circle that for my grade. But that's. I do not like that question or that framing, because.

Derrick Clements [00:04:49] And you mentioned that Joseph Smith was very literalistic. He probably was. I would say that the modern church is probably even more so than Joseph Smith was. I don't know. I mean, Joseph Smith, to me, when I see him, I see a guy who's walking around and looking at the world around him and getting revelations all the time and saying, hey, this was a Lamanite burial ground or something. And I don't. Maybe he did literally believe that. I don't know. But I see him as. What I like about Joseph Smith is kind of the expansiveness that he has. And I think that literalism is. And basing your testimony or basing your faith on testable theories or testable facts is not very expansive. I think that can be quite confining.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] But you would agree that, you know, when Joseph would take people to the silver mine and basically say, oh, my gosh, I see a silver mine, he was communicating to people that he really saw a silver mine, and they, you know, his followers really believed that there was a silver mine under there. You agree with that, right?

Derrick Clements [00:05:54] I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. Maybe. Yeah, probably. But I also think that it's. I don't know. There's a lot of Mormonism that reminds me of Twin Peaks. I'm watching Twin Peaks right now, and there's a lot of that. That show just like, unexplainable mysteries just are kind of part of that. And that resonates with my Mormonism when I see that in Twin Peaks, because. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, so that's my. That's my answer.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] So was. Was Joseph claiming to have seen God and Jesus when he claimed to see God and Jesus?

Derrick Clements [00:06:23] Yeah, and I. And I don't necessarily doubt what he. What he thinks he experienced or what he experienced. But I also, I mean, there's this discrepancy, like, in the. I don't remember which the witnesses, they're like, we saw the plates. And then later they're like, actually, it was with our spiritual eyes. Right. So do you know what I'm talking about?

John Dehlin [00:06:42] Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:06:43] You could either. You could either say that as like, oh, they're obviously lying. And I think that's a fair. Like, I don't. I don't have any argument against that interpretation, but I also don't interpret it that way. I interpret it as people experience spirituality in some kind of mysterious and interesting ways. And I don't. I'm not dismissive of the mystery of those types of things like spiritual eyes. To me, I'm a little skeptical of what that means, but I'm also open to it, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Got it. Okay. And we'll. Maybe we'll dig more into this in a bit, but I think it's important for us to get the basic framework. So if it's okay, I'm going to go through kind of the main core tenets of Mormonism and just quickly check each one.

Derrick Clements [00:07:36] So this is a temple recommend interview, isn't it, John?

John Dehlin [00:07:38] A little bit. It's kind of an apostate temple recommend. Reverse. Yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:07:43] Where do I get into if I answer these?

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Reverse interview. You get into a lunch date with me.

Derrick Clements [00:07:48] Great.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] All right. So is it important to you that there be an anthropomorphic God? Is that a part of your testimony?

Derrick Clements [00:07:57] No.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] How about a God at all?

Derrick Clements [00:08:02] Yeah, maybe. No, I would say I'm open to. I mean, yeah, yeah, I think it's important that there's something. But I'm very open to what that something is, and I'm rather skeptical that it looks like me there is a human of some kind.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Okay. And that's pretty fundamental to Mormon doctrine, right? That man and women can become gods and the God is an exalted man, you know?

Derrick Clements [00:08:29] Yeah. I mean, it's. Again, it's like people in the Daily Herald commenting, you're not a real Mormon because you like people. Yeah. It's fundamental to some people, and I wouldn't take that away to the people for whom that is a fundamental thing based. So far in my life, that has not been a fundamental question for me. Now, communication with a deity has been a fundamental to me, and communication with, you know, trying to reach deity has been fundamental to me. So in that way, I think, yeah, it is important to me so far in my experience, but I'm. I have no clue within or I have no certainty about what that actual being is.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Yeah. And the truth is, so many of us in our 40s and above were raised on Bruce R. McConkey Mormonism. And so it's real triggering for us to have you say, no, there's lots of types of Mormonism, because we weren't raised that way. We were raised that there was one way to Mormon. And the truth is, you are right.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] And one example of this is that the church is backing away from this idea that God was once a man. It's not talking about it as much. It's not emphasizing it. And I don't think the church would care if you believe that or not, really.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] And I just think. I think you're right that there's many ways to believe or act as a Mormon, but there's so many of us who were raised not feeling like there was that option. And so we feel like you're inventing a type of Mormonism that we never felt the liberty to explore.

Derrick Clements [00:10:06] Yeah, I am. I mean, I.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] And this is what Gina's doing. This is what Dan Witherspoon's doing. This is what lots of people are doing.

Derrick Clements [00:10:14] I invent Mormonism. I mean, as much as I invent myself. So there's ways in which I don't. Right. It is what it is, and I am who I am. But, like, I am constantly reframing kind of what it. What it looks like to me. John, can I ask you what you mean by triggering? Like, does it. Does it upset you when I. When I talk about Mormonism this way? Is that what you mean?

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Yeah, it's sort of Like, I mean, it goes back to this. It goes back to this feeling about the people that the church harms as well. I think anytime you've made a tough. You know, we reference listeners who basically said, I left the church and I lost my family and I lost my community. And it's been terrible. Once you've been cut off from the tribe and you feel. And that doesn't mean we're miserable like my family and I. I think we're happier and healthier than we've ever been. But it certainly was a traumatic and a difficult thing to be cut off or to cut ourselves off, however you want to look at it.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] And so when we, when we encounter someone who's sort of from. From a perspective, and I'm not even saying I'm judging you personally, but I'm just trying to convey the sentiment of someone who wants to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to enjoy the benefits of Mormonism, but they want to invent what Mormonism is to them.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] But it's not really Mormonism. It's not. You know, if you sort of say the leaders of Mormonism are the Prophet and the First Presidency and the quorum of the 12 and the quorum of the 70, you know, they're the ones who define Mormonism. And that's how Joseph Smith laid it out. That's how it's always been, you know, for many people, that is Mormonism. And if you got up and said what you just said to me in church, let alone General Conference, you'd be shooed off the stage, you'd be disinvited. You might even be called into a disciplinary council. If you look at, like, Sam Young or a lot of people who try and be openly disagreeing with the church, they end up with their temple recommends revoked or sometimes in a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] And so I think for somebody that's taken aside and said, no, no, no, let's not nuance, let's not be metaphorical. Let's look at things as they are and be. Have integrity. You, Derek, are trying to have your cake and eat it, too. You're trying to nuance your way to get all the fringe benefits of Mormonism without really being orthodox or orthoprax. I think that's. It triggers in people a sense of anger, maybe a sense of envy, maybe a sense of jealousy, maybe. Maybe a sense of frustration that you're really not Mormon, but you're calling yourself Mormon. And I, and I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying that's what people feel.

Derrick Clements [00:13:15] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And I have a lot of sympathy for that perspective because first of all, I think it's wrong to excommunicate people for their beliefs. And I know that that has happened. And so I think that the ways in which Mormon identity is policed is a problem. And it happens. Yeah. Among Mormons and among post Mormons. Right. People are like, that's not what Mormonism is. You can't have that. The thing I would say about having my cake and eating it too is that in my. Like, it's. The cake is not always pleasant. Right. It's not. I don't think cake is the right metaphor.

Derrick Clements [00:13:53] It's like, it's more like having my. Having my kidney and using it too. Like. Yeah, like, it's not great, but what am I going to do? Take it out? Like, so, I mean, I know that that could be dismissive of that perspective. I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I don't see it. I don't participate in Mormonism as I. Because of the benefits that I get from it. I get a lot of frustration and pain from my Mormonism as well, but I'm part of it because it's just who I am.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Yeah. And I get that sense from like, Gina Colvin. Gina Colvin is always posting on Facebook things that make her angry and frustrated. And there's part of me that's like, freaking leave if it's that hard for you. But she doesn't want to leave.

Derrick Clements [00:14:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] And for her, it's not some walk in the park cake and eat it too. It's like this constant struggle. And that's something Dan Witherspoon always talks about is the struggle, that there's spiritual and moral and ethical value in the struggle. Is that how you think about it?

Derrick Clements [00:14:54] Oh, that, definitely. Yeah. When I've heard Dan talk about that idea, it's really meant a lot to me, that idea of wrestling that the wrestle is. And not even. And yet when I first was disillusioned to the church as an 18 year old, um, that wrestle is the thing that I became, that became my most vibrant part of my. Of my practice, religious practice is. Is sitting in that wrestle and not putting things on shelves, but like breaking down shelves and working through them and figuring out where they really belong and where I want to put them for now. So it's. That wrestle is absolutely the. The vibrant and colorful part of my Mormon experience, spiritually speaking.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] What if somebody says that's masochistic? Like, you Don't. Why subject yourself to the difficult? Why not just go to a Unitarian church or oasis or whatever and just get, just kind of get those all the positive and the spiritual nutrients without all the bad.

Derrick Clements [00:15:48] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Why subject yourself to the difficulty?

Derrick Clements [00:15:51] Yeah, well, the, it's, it's not. I mean, I don't think that everybody would have the experience that I've had. And I think that from, for some people, Mormonism wouldn't work, but the pain. So that when I talk about pain, I'm not talking about the types of deep soul, you know, it just there, there is pain that people experience around Mormonism that I have not suffered. So when I'm talking about pain, I'm more talking about the types of pain of, you know, the metaphor we always say is working out or, you know, growing, growing. So there's a, there's a pain associated with the wrestle pain of being wrong.

Derrick Clements [00:16:35] A pain of trying to figure out how I've been wrong. A pain of kind of being humble about the ways in which I've been misled or that I've not been right about certain things and that I need to change my views. There's a pain associated with that, but to me it's been a constructive pain. And I would say that it's a very individual thing of whether the pain is good or bad for a person.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Yeah. So for you, if somebody leaves Mormonism, you know, do they have a category downgrade in your, in your eyes?

Derrick Clements [00:17:07] No, no, I would say the church does. When somebody leaves Mormonism, I think the church gets a little bit less true because I think that all of our perspectives are important.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] And you're saying the church suffers when people leave it.

Derrick Clements [00:17:19] Yeah, I think so. But I don't think that should be a reason to stay necessarily. Like, if somebody's gonna leave Mormonism because they need to leave Mormonism, like, go, go for it.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] So you're not like some people ascribe to Dan Witherspoon or others this idea that the enlightened position is to remain engaged in the church. As a nuanced middle way believer, I

Derrick Clements [00:17:41] have found a lot of enlightenment from my experiences that I've. But yeah, like I don't, I don't have any idea what other people are experiencing. So I would not say everybody needs to follow the path that I have followed.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] Do you have a bias that's like inside it's like, yeah, the really smart wise people are the ones who stick.

Derrick Clements [00:17:59] I mean, I have a bias. I don't think it's that I'D certainly all. I mean, I definitely have a bias toward my own, my own people. I know that when I meet people who have, who think similarly to me, I feel a great affinity toward them. And I married one of them when that happens. And I, you know, I'm friends with people that think similarly, as I do. But no, I think I am fully comfortable with the notion that there are people for whom the current LDS Church does not. Is not a good force in their life. And those people probably should leave. And I don't know who they are maybe. And I'm not saying they're necessarily the stereotypical marginalized group. It could be for a whole host of reasons why that would be.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] And if someone were to say, you know what, you can leave Mormonism and become an amazing, enlightened, powerful, strong, good individual, what's your reaction to that?

Derrick Clements [00:18:53] Go for it. Yeah. In fact, one of my professors that I had at byu, I was an English major and I met a lot of great fringe intellectual Mormons in the BYU English department. But one of them or one professor that I had brought up this great passage in the Book of Mormon where they're talking about God speaking to this group of people and this group of people in the north and the west and all these different people, God speaks to all of them. And the idea is the fullness of everything is when they all come together. That's one of my favorite parts of the Book of Mormon. And it's something that I really deeply believe that I can learn from everybody. And their relationship to the LDS Church is a very superficial part of their what they can offer to the world in terms of enlightenment and wisdom.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. A couple. We'll just touch on a couple listener comments. Let's see. Melissa writes, I was raised having a very black and white idea of what being Mormon is. I was taught that Joseph Smith was not to be questioned. So Melissa's sort of validating the sort of Bruce R. McConkie Orthodox version of Mormonism. And I guess you would say to Melissa, it doesn't have to be that way. Is that right? Would that be your response?

Derrick Clements [00:20:12] Yeah, I would say that, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Let's see. So one person writes, they want to know, if you don't believe in God, what about the rest? And so let's, before we incorporate more comments, there's a lot of comments about buffet Mormonism, a lot of people expressing frustration. I'm going to go to my line of questions and then come back.

Derrick Clements [00:20:35] Okay, let me just correct. You said if you don't believe it. I do believe in God, just not necessarily anthropomorphic.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] God.

Derrick Clements [00:20:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] What is God for you? What is God for you?

Derrick Clements [00:20:46] God is the experience that I have had when I pray and feel something. God is the sort of. And it's also a story that I tell myself to help me understand the world. But it's all. So it's. It's a story, but it's also a tangible experience of a relationship that I've had various times throughout my life.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] God is a story.

Derrick Clements [00:21:06] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] And your emotions. But, like, is it an external power, an external force?

Derrick Clements [00:21:13] Maybe. Yeah, probably. Maybe. I don't know. I know what is real is that it's external in the sense of. It's external from my conscious self, for sure. Because there have been times that I've prayed and have felt direction or communication that has come from outside of my conscious, you know, frontal lobe or whatever. You know, not frontal lobe, but, like, my conscious self. It could have come from somewhere else, from within me or within my brain. It doesn't really matter to me because it's. It's so God.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] So for you, God could be just the chemicals and wiring of your brain.

Derrick Clements [00:21:51] Yeah. And by the way, chemicals and wiring of brains is amazing. Like, something that you could worship. It's so amazing.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] Like.

Derrick Clements [00:21:58] Like life and human biology. Yeah. That's crazy, right? That we can have these experiences where we, like, kneel to prey and, like, feel something. That's amazing. So whether it's, you know, just chemicals or whether that's just how we tap into, you know, an actual divine father or mother. Great. Either way, it's great.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Okay, what about. What is scripture for you, then?

Derrick Clements [00:22:23] Well, I mean, there are sacred texts that have come from a variety of places. And as a Mormon, I have a special regard for the canon that Mormonism has, but they all come from very different places. And I would say the most.

Derrick Clements [00:22:40] I'm most suspect of the scripture that's exclusively Mormon because I have a harder time wrapping my brain around where it came from. And frankly, that keeps me from really accessing the Book of Mormon in a lot of ways, because I'm like, what really is this? Like, I don't really know where the Book of Mormon came from or what it is, so that. That keeps me from it. And sometimes. But there's a lot of aspects about the Book of Mormon that I love. But short answer, I would say scripture has a religious significance because a religion will, you know, choose these books as the canon, and then those can become helpful in, you know, sharing with each other and preaching to each other and ministering to each other.

Derrick Clements [00:23:20] Scriptures can be very helpful. Scripture can of course, also be used to harm people and to manipulate people. And so we have to be always vigilant about that. But I, but in a broader sense, I see scripture as, as I mentioned, I mentioned the movie Silence. Like that movie is scripture to me because of the, the effect that it has in my life. So there's a, there's a specific Mormon scripture that I respect and then there's a kind of broader definition of anything that can cause me to repent, you know, in a way that I need to, or anything that can make me think about things differently or that can remind me what my, or teach me what my morals are. You know, those. That's kind of how I define scripture.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] So the idea that there's this anthropomorphic God speaking to prophets who then write down what God says, that's. Where does that meme fit in your view of scripture?

Derrick Clements [00:24:21] A little bit. I would say it's a little bit of a simplistic reading for me personally. The example that we could maybe point to is the idea of the seer stone that the LDS Church has started talking about, the seer stone that Joseph Smith has used. And when I was at the Church History museum asking so, like, how did that work? And just to see what, understand what the official story was. And the story that they told me at the museum a year or a couple years ago was, yeah, like the words would actually appear on this stone and Joseph would look at, look at these words as they appeared.

Derrick Clements [00:24:51] And to me, that's a very disappointing or that's a very unsatisfying story. But I love the idea on a broader sense that there's a stone that Joseph Smith is using because to me that speaks to this kind of mysterious reaching towards something that is divine and greater than himself. And so, yeah, but yeah, I think that scripture is produced by human beings and they're as flawed as anything. But I think that there's value in choosing a canon as a religion and kind of using that canon to help people and minister.

Scripture, Restoration, and Prophetic Authority

John Dehlin [00:25:33] This is a tough question, but what do you think the probability is that there's an anthropomorphic God speaking to Moses and Joseph Smith and that they're writing down what they hear from an anthropomorphic God. Like, if you had to give a probability of that, what do you think the probability is?

Derrick Clements [00:25:50] I just don't feel qualified. I mean, I don't want to do the cop out answer the truthful answer is that I don't know, but I would find it somewhat unsatisfying if that's all there was to it. If that's all there was to the story.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] What I'm getting at is when our missionaries go to converts, potential converts, and tell them the story, they certainly aren't saying these are books of wisdom and of stories that are metaphorical that you could take or leave, that don't really have a grounding in any history. They're just things that can be like parables that make you live a better life and make you feel good. They're basically saying, Joseph saw an angel and received plates and translated them. And this is an actual record of ancient Americans. I get a sense that the whole reason you've constructed your nuanced testimony is because you think the probability of all those things actually happening super low. And so how do you feel about the fact that when. Well, okay, and you can correct me. I'm just. Yeah, I'm just setting up a question.

Derrick Clements [00:26:57] Okay, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] How do you feel about the fact that when people are brought into the church, it is with the literal narrative? And in that sense, if you think that that narrative is likely not true, in some sense, the church is misleading people from the very start.

Derrick Clements [00:27:13] Right. Yeah. So that's. There's a number of important issues that you bring up there. I think when missionaries preach, based on my experience as a missionary and based on my experience as an MCC teacher for four years and seeing what missionaries are like and seeing many, many missionaries, I think that, for the most part, missionaries are speaking from their own honest point of view. So it's not that they're misleading people. It's that they might have it. That's how they see it. And. And I would say.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Right, right. I'm not saying the missionaries are being dishonest. What I'm saying is you're part of a church that is teaching a narrative that you think is probably not accurate, and that's how they're getting people into the church.

Derrick Clements [00:27:58] I don't know. I don't know, because I don't think that as a missionary, I was necessarily like that. The thing. The things that I was teaching and feeling and the things that I've recently, as I've been a teacher in the church, like, there are.

Derrick Clements [00:28:13] There are things that I. There are things that I really think are valuable and that I really believe, and those are the things that I talk about. And sometimes those. Those ideas help people, and sometimes they don't. I think the people that are very concerned about the literal readings of those types of things. I think those things are important to those people. And so I wouldn't necessarily take that away from. From them. It's not that. So. So it's not that I think there's a low probability of those things being true or literal, and that's why I've constructed this narrative or this concept. It's not that I think there's a low probability.

Derrick Clements [00:28:48] It's that I think there could be. And any chance of it being all wrong or something is enough for me to reshape my faith. So does that make sense? It's not about. I don't think. I'm really not talking out of both sides of my mouth here. Like I'm saying, I believe what I believe, and I think people believe what they believe. And I do think that in terms of curriculum and in terms of, like, church leadership. And you mentioned Bruce Armerkonki. There have been people. I mean, who was it that said there's some truth is not very useful? Right. I disagree with that perspective. And that is among us.

Derrick Clements [00:29:27] We have to sit with that. We have to deal with that. We have to correct that. Because I think that attitude of deliberately withholding information, I think that is destructive to larger purposes. But I think that. I think people are going to come at faith from lots of different angles, and I have respect for various approaches

John Dehlin [00:29:47] to it, and I think that's an elegant, respectful, wise approach. But I'm going to push you just a tiny bit further. Yeah. I don't think you think that Joseph Smith received angels, golden plates from an angel and that he translated Reform Egyptian into English and that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record of Native Americans. My sense is, is that you're like, no, that didn't happen. But that's what the missionaries. But, okay, am I wrong? Am I wrong?

Derrick Clements [00:30:19] Yeah, I would say you're wrong, but I don't really know how to respond about it. Like, I just think it's a little bit simplistic to put it that way,

John Dehlin [00:30:27] but that's exactly what missionaries teach people. Right. And the church.

Derrick Clements [00:30:30] Some missionaries. Yeah, some missionaries do that.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Most. The overwhelming majority. Right.

Derrick Clements [00:30:34] I mean, the manual preach my gospel does. And that's kind of what. But again, like, missionaries are the church. The stories that Mormons tell and the stories that hold up the institution of Mormonism are told and retold by Mormons. So it's. Yeah, it's gonna be imperfect.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Right, Right. But okay. And I don't want to. I don't want to beat a dead horse. I'm just saying that I think most of the people that have really considered the historical truth claims of the Book of Mormon, the historicity of the Book of Mormon, conclude that it's not an ancient record of the Native Americans, that. That Joseph Smith got it from various sources, that there probably really weren't golden plates. And again, my sense is, I know that the cost would be very high for you to actually admit this.

Derrick Clements [00:31:28] No, no, see that, John, that's what I really push back against.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] Okay, good, good, push back.

Derrick Clements [00:31:32] You're saying. I know you don't want to really admit this, but really, Derek, you see this how I see it, and that's not what I'm saying. So it's like, I have great respect for that perspective, and I'm probably. If I'm leaning one way, it's probably against literal interpretations of many scriptures, including the Book of Mormon. But this idea that I lean towards literal, no, I lean away from literal.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] Okay.

Derrick Clements [00:31:59] But, like, it's the lean that's important to me. And so when you. When I hear you saying, really, it's. You don't lean that way, you feel that way, but you're speaking that you lean because it's. There's a high cost or you don't want to leave, or for whatever reason, I'm saying no, like, I don't know.

Derrick Clements [00:32:15] There's a lot of aspects of the church that are mysterious to me and that I don't know, and that I'm seeking to understand better more and more, and that I see that as a lifelong quest. But I really take exception to the premise that because I have this view that is kind of multifaceted, that means that really, I hold on to the literal. It's not. It's not literally true. And I'm just saying this other thing as a way of kind of couching it. No, that's not how I. How I believe. Like, I have this belief that is.

Derrick Clements [00:32:52] I don't know. It's. It's. It's complicated and it's weird and it's. It's unique to me, and it's. But it's not that I'm hiding anything

John Dehlin [00:33:04] consciously or unconsciously.

Derrick Clements [00:33:05] You're saying, I mean, I'm probably conscious, unconsciously, doing all kinds of things. But it's something that. This is a matter that I, you know, have devoted a lot of thought and, And. And attention to in my life of internal introspection. What do I believe? What do I actually really care about? And my Answers on some of these fundamental. Do you believe this yes or no questions are somewhere in between? And that's not a euphemism for. No, I don't believe that. It's not a euphemism for that. It's like. Yeah, there's a whole. I don't know. And I'm fine with that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Are you saying that it just. You're kind of basing your devotion to the Church more on feelings than on the facts? That the facts don't really matter?

Derrick Clements [00:33:52] Well, what. I mean, the fact is, I was born into a Mormon family. Like, what facts are the facts. The facts in terms of the. Yeah. I mean, in some. I'm incorporating facts, I'm incorporating feelings. I'm incorporating, you know, whatever input there is. And it's. Yeah. I mean, feelings. I hear you being dismissive about feelings, but.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] No, no, no, no. I think feelings are important. I just. I'm trying to. It would be cool. And this isn't actually me looking down on your point of view. I love it. I love it. I really respect you, and that's why I brought you on.

Derrick Clements [00:34:31] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] And I don't. And I don't. I don't look down on what you're doing. I don't think it's wrong. It actually, in some weird way, it makes me happy. Yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:34:41] Great.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] So, not that you need my validation, but I do want to be able to. I would love to be able to describe it accurately in a way where you and I agree.

Derrick Clements [00:34:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] And I'm just gonna. I'll just go back again to the missionaries and Joseph Smith. Mormonism doesn't hold itself up to just be a club that you join and sing songs and raise kids in it. It starts out with the historical narrative. It starts out with the historical narrative.

Derrick Clements [00:35:10] Okay. I mean, I agree with the first part of that sentence. It's not a club, but. Yeah. I mean, the historical part is important for many people, but I don't know. See, this is. This is. And this is probably frustrating, but, like. And I don't want to be frustrating, this idea of what is Mormonism and who gets to be Morm is a really tough question, and I think we're grappling with it right now as you're saying, look, missionaries are teaching this and the vast majority of mission, if missionaries are teaching just what's in breach of my gospel.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Ces. And ces. Don't forget ces.

Derrick Clements [00:35:45] Yeah. Although, I mean, I am pretty happy with the direction that I see CES going in terms of introducing some of the more challenging and difficult subjects and stuff. But. And I think missionaries will go that way too. I would love to see missionaries become more.

Derrick Clements [00:36:02] This is kind of a tangent, but service oriented as opposed to just preaching. But like, I think the. The notion that Mormonism rests on the particular stories of Mormonism that are in our canon of sacred stories, whether they're in scripture or just about the history of the church.

Derrick Clements [00:36:26] Want to wrestle? I want, I want to wrest the definition away from that of Mormonism, away from those things, because I see it as sort of setting up a straw man argument where you're saying, if Mormonism is built on these fundamental core literal questions, then of course Mormonism isn't true. And I would agree with that. But I find myself in Mormonism being electrified by Mormonism, being engaged in Mormonism in ways that are not always pleasant or comfortable, but that are not totally based on these premises of literal theological ideas.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Yeah, no, I think I see what you're saying. Okay, let's just maybe we can call that nuanced Mormonism or progressive Mormonism or liberal Mormonism.

Derrick Clements [00:37:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] And I see that as I, you know, I see that as viable.

Derrick Clements [00:37:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] What I'm trying to call out is the difference between what you're doing and what, what children are being. You know, if you're being kind, you'll say oriented towards, and if you're being unkind, you'll say brainwashed towards.

Derrick Clements [00:37:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] And what investigators receive. Because again, nobody, very few people, less than 99% of the people who join Mormonism are probably joining your type of Mormonism. What they're hearing is that, you know, the missionaries show up at the flip charts and they're like, we believe in God, in the eternal Father, and he's a man, and we believe in Jesus, his son, who is resurrected. And we believe that they appeared to Joseph Smith because the Bible was true, but then there was an apostasy and then the apostasy, you know, someone needed to restore the true church. And that was Joseph Smith and he saw God and Jesus and then angel came and delivered in plates.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] I mean, what I want to take issue with you is if you're, if you're claiming that whether it's primary kids or investigators, if they join for. Under any other understanding than that this is a literal narrative, I don't think you're being honest. I think that's why people either join or, you know, become indoctrinated as children of record for the most part.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] So they're joining a very different Mormonism than you're living. And that's fine. You're saying. I hear you saying that Mormonism should be able to encompass both. And I'm not disagreeing with that. But I'm saying your Mormonism is very different than theirs. And because I think you hold as suspect as problematic many of those literal truth claims.

Derrick Clements [00:39:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Does it not bother you at all that so many people, the majority, are being recruited under what I think you would agree are probably at best inaccurate or incomplete narratives and possibly completely fraudulent narratives. Right.

Derrick Clements [00:39:22] Yeah. Yeah. So I would agree with that. Because. But like, I think there's. So people are joining the church under these simplistic narratives, is what you're saying. And then they're stuck with this in simplistic narrative and this literal narrative.

Derrick Clements [00:39:36] They're also leaving. Right. When people join the church, they often leave the church. Retention is a challenge in the church. And based on my experience, the things that keep people or the things that keep converts committed are not those things, whether one way or the other. It's not. Wow, this story is an amazing story. Joseph Smith saw God. That's why I have to become Mormonism. But somehow, in the experience of learning those stories, something within them, those people are changing. And I think I want to share this quick anecdote and. But I want to caveat it and say, well, yeah, I'll just caveat it. I won't say who that.

Derrick Clements [00:40:10] There was an apostle that came to my mission and he taught something that genuinely changed my mission in a positive way. That was, you need to listen to people. He came in and gave this talk to the missionaries and said, the lessons that you teach are important, but you need to listen to what they're saying. The things that investigators are saying is the most important thing.

Derrick Clements [00:40:33] And that really helped me as a missionary because I did start to listen better to people. And when I listened to people, I heard what their actual lived experiences were, and I could actually talk to them on a much deeper level than I was before. And what was I doing before I was telling those stories. Right.

Derrick Clements [00:40:51] So I think the key here is to. Is to listen and listen deeply and to. I hope that missions become more like that. I hope that mission missionaries become more like that, more toward, you know, putting the lesson aside and listening to what people are saying. And I also believe that the stories that we tell as missionaries and as Mormons do, they do have power to inspire good things happening within a person's soul. So that's kind of where I would put that.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Yeah. So what if I can restate what I hear you saying is that. But truth. Yes. Yes. There's an incomplete and possibly wrong narrative that converts and children of record are being sort of indoctrinated into. But what is edifying about Mormonism and what would cause someone to stay is the spiritual and the edifying lived experience that probably. Probably doesn't touch a lot on that. On that historical narrative, but instead is, like, the service opportunities, the community, the music, all the different ways that it enhances their lives. And for you, that's what's important, not the truth claims.

Derrick Clements [00:42:11] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very well said. Yeah, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] Okay. No, cool. All right. So I appreciate your patience with me. I know that my Facebook posts maybe come off as belittling. I really am trying to understand.

Derrick Clements [00:42:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Awesome, right? Because I fought with this stuff as a member. I fought with, can I do this? How do I do this? Okay, so just to go back to our little list, and we can kind of zoom through these. So for you, how essential is it that Jesus died for all our sins, bled from every pore, that every sin we commit adds pain and suffering to Jesus, retroactive suffering. And that he died and was resurrected with the physical body in three days, how important is that to you, to your testimony?

Derrick Clements [00:42:59] It's important in a way, but not the literal aspects of it. So I believe that there is a power that I access when I repent, that is the atonement that Jesus Christ represents. And whether it's more literal than just representing that power or if he's just helping me access that power that exists apart from Jesus, I don't know. But it's important to my faith, just not in a literal sense, possibly.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] So in your mind, are you like, I can't wait to meet Jesus someday. I can't wait to kneel at his feet and touch the prince in his hands. Right.

Derrick Clements [00:43:33] I haven't had that thought very often. No, but it'd be cool now that you say it.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] But that's not. But that's not kind of what you're hanging your hat on, Right? For you, if Jesus was nothing more than a wise guy that taught true principles and was maybe killed for his beliefs, you're okay with that?

Derrick Clements [00:43:50] Yeah, that doesn't disrupt my spiritual imagination. Because the atonement of Jesus Christ, you know, the broad definition of that applies whether he was a person at all, really. But I mean. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] And the idea that you will be resurrected someday and live in a heaven or celestial kingdom, how important is that to you?

Derrick Clements [00:44:14] Yeah, Not. Not. I don't think about that often. Yeah. I mean, it fills me with kind of the same curiosity that looking up at the stars and wondering, you know, how many planets there are and all that, like, fills me with curiosity and interest, but not hanging my hat on it.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Okay. That's not why you're engaged, because you're. You're living for that day when you're gonna be in the social kingdom.

Derrick Clements [00:44:36] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] That's not what you're living for.

Derrick Clements [00:44:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] And so do you see there to have been a need for a restoration in terms of, like, mankind would be lost and wouldn't go back to heaven without the Mormon restoration?

Derrick Clements [00:44:51] No, no. I mean, I think it's great that human beings have inspiration, and I think that to me, the restoration of the gospel is something that is an inspired, divine, divinely guided movement. Probably. I guess I'll throw a probably in there. But the notion that it's the only that, like, for example, like the notion the priesthood keys through the LDS Church, every person needs those maybe. I mean, and I know that that's important for a lot of people that share a lot of my sort of nuanced beliefs. Like, they're like, yeah, I have these nuanced beliefs, but the priesthood is important.

Derrick Clements [00:45:31] But to me, it's like, yeah, important in my life. Certainly the priesthood is important in my life, and it's been good in my life. And I'm not just saying holding the priesthood, but priesthood blessings and priesthood ordinances have been important to me. But again, it's not. The literal truth of that is not essential to me.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] So for you, you know, for you, there may or may not be a heaven, but if there is a heaven, it sounds like for you, it's not crucial whether or not you have a Mormon baptism.

Derrick Clements [00:46:04] Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I love the idea of. I don't know. There's something that I hesitate to dismiss about the notion that everyone needs to be baptized because in a sort of poetic way, I like it. But, yeah, like, in terms of. I don't hold a lot of stock in the idea that every person needs to have every experience or even some. Any experience that is the same as I've had. Then again, that I am okay with that as a theological tenet because of this idea of baptisms for the dead, where it's kind of like, I don't know, it kind of is the theological underpinning, but I sort of force some stuff that I think is kind of cool. And other people Might not think is cool, but insofar as that, that underpinning says that I'm better than you because I've been baptized or I have some

John Dehlin [00:46:57] better, I get to go in and you don't or you don't.

Derrick Clements [00:46:59] Yeah, exactly. And so I think that we get into very quickly into the territory of spiritual abuse and you know, things like wielding scripture against people as opposed to for people and ministering to people. I mean, taking the name of God in vain as I would define it, but in terms of sort of the outreach of love that that kind of doctrine can do, I'm all for that. And I kind of like the theological underpinning of stuff that essential baptism leads to. But I don't lose sleep at night worried about the people that aren't baptized.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] So for you, if somebody said, derek, is the Mormon Church the one true church, what would you say?

Derrick Clements [00:47:41] I'd probably say no. I'd probably say no.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] And would you say we're the only ones with authority to act for God? What would you say?

Derrick Clements [00:47:49] Yeah, I'd probably say no. But I mean, that answer would might mean something different depending. I mean, like if I were saying that to somebody who was really what they were really asking me was, are you part of this tribe or not? I would try to have a conversation with them. I wouldn't just keep it at no. But from what I can tell that you are asking me, I would just say yeah, probably not.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] Okay, okay. So the restoration maybe was divinely led by the sense of God that you have, but not the literal narrative of the true church needing to be restored. That's not where you're hanging your hat.

Derrick Clements [00:48:31] Yeah, I would probably say that's true.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Okay, okay. Does the Book of Abraham, where does it fit? You said that sort of the distinctively Mormon scriptures, you struggle with them maybe a little bit more than the Bible. Does the Book of Abraham have a lower category than maybe the Book of Mormon to you?

Derrick Clements [00:48:50] I mean, not, not lower, but it is one of those cases that have been, that has been helpful for me in breaking apart my concept of scripture because it seems, I mean, from the very little that I've really invested in understanding this, like it's possible that there is a literal text that he was working with, but it's very unlikely that there that the text that Joseph produced has anything to do with the text that he was working from. So yeah, I, I'm suspicious of that, but I still think of it as

John Dehlin [00:49:19] scripture and scripture meaning wisdom and divine, sort of like church appointed sacred text.

Derrick Clements [00:49:28] Yeah, yeah. And something that could have been produced through divine inspiration. And to me, that opens the door to all kinds of validation of ideas, of beliefs.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] But for you, divine intervention can be Martin Scorsese receiving a screenplay.

Derrick Clements [00:49:43] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] So it's not.

Derrick Clements [00:49:45] But that's not distinct. Don't dismiss that.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] I'm not. I love movies. I'm with you. That's good stuff.

Derrick Clements [00:49:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] Movies are scripture for me, too. Okay, great. Okay. So. So in terms of Thomas S. Monson now being God's one, you know, one prophet on the earth, I believe he's

Derrick Clements [00:50:01] the one LDS prophet on the earth that, you know. So in terms of, like, I sustain him as the leader of my tribe and of, you know, the only person that has the keys to really enact changes and things like that in the

John Dehlin [00:50:14] church, you know, he's the leader of our church.

Derrick Clements [00:50:16] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] But not as God's one prophet on the earth.

Derrick Clements [00:50:20] No, but I do see him as God's prophet on the earth. Just not the only prophet on the earth.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] So who else would qualify as a prophet for you?

Derrick Clements [00:50:28] Oh, all kinds of people. Martin Scorsese is one.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Okay.

Derrick Clements [00:50:33] But, you know, I do see that. I do see. I don't know. I do see it differently. I have a special connection to the Mormon prophet.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Who's the guy? That's. Who's the Lassiter guy from Pixar?

Derrick Clements [00:50:42] John Lasseter. Yeah, definitely a prophet.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Yeah.

Derrick Clements [00:50:45] Hey, well, Ed Catmull, the founder of. He went on an LDS mission, so. Founder of Pixar. So anyway, yeah, I mean, I think that there's prophecy that can come from lots of different places. And. But like. So I feel very free to draw wisdom from the Pope. People in my article, I talk about the Pope in positive ways in one of my recent articles, and people in the comments are like, this guy's not Mormon. He's saying good things about the Pope. So, like, whatever. But, like, I see Thomas S. Monson and the brethren of the Church as having a special role in my life, in my community, and I sustained them as leaders and as mouthpieces of God, imperfect ones, albeit. But, yeah, I don't think that that's the only place that God's not only speaking to Mormons, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Right. And Thomas S. Monson isn't the prophet for the world. He's the prophet for the Mormon Church. I don't care much about the prophet for the world.

Derrick Clements [00:51:49] Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't really. I think I get what you're asking. And if. And I would Say no. Yeah, I don't think he is. But, like, I think that he certainly is positioned to. People around the world can listen to him, and I think there. Wisdom to be gained.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Yeah, yeah. But when we sing about, like, you know, we thank thee, O God, for our prophet.

Derrick Clements [00:52:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] I don't think Mormons sing that. Just in the Mormon context. I think Mormons think God has a prophet on the earth for all mankind, and it's Thomas S. Monson.

Derrick Clements [00:52:21] Yeah, well. Or Joseph Smith. I mean, people loved Joseph Smith, but those hymns, frankly, often make me uncomfortable. I'm like, let's sing something else.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Or the. Or just the idea that next to Jesus, Joseph Smith was the most righteous being to ever walk the planet. Right.

Derrick Clements [00:52:34] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely don't agree with that. But I don't. I don't. I don't know that Joseph agreed with that either, but. Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] How do you. How do you, like. I think you would agree that a reasonable reading of Joseph Smith's history is that he was a charlatan, that he, you know, with the. No, no, not that you think that.

Derrick Clements [00:52:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] But that if somebody could look at. If somebody looked at the treasure digging where he never found treasure.

Derrick Clements [00:53:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] The. The, you know, the Seer Stone stuff in a hat, the propositioning other men's wives, the teenage girls, the. The Book of Abraham, you could look at all that and say, oh, somehow a less literal version of God was somehow inspiring all that. Or you could say he was totally fooling people and gratifying his own sexual pleasure. I think you could see that that's a reasonable reading of Joseph's history.

Derrick Clements [00:53:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] How do you avoid sort of saying man, Joseph, like, if John Dehlin did all those things that Joseph Smith did, I don't think you'd appear on my podcast, honestly. If I. If I propositioned your daughter to be my 30th wife, if I propositioned your wife to be my, you know, my 10th wife, if I told everybody I wasn't practicing polygamy when I was. I don't think you'd even want to be in my podcast, let alone join my church. So how do you.

Derrick Clements [00:54:02] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] Well, no, go ahead.

Derrick Clements [00:54:04] Well, I was. You're underestimating my sense of ego that likes to hear myself talk. So I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] Got it.

Derrick Clements [00:54:09] I talked to whoever wants to hear me talk. I mean, no, I, like, I don't know, like, did Joseph Smith. I think Joseph Smith inspired a lot of good and a lot of. A lot of good things. And I see him as a prophet, but I certainly see him from what, from the little that I have studied him. There's a lot of his character and some of those things that you mentioned are among those that I recoil against and would not support as like a good choice.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] I mean, these are, these are pretty serious things, right?

Derrick Clements [00:54:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Like 14 year old girls and whatever. Like that's a serious thing, right?

Derrick Clements [00:54:46] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] So, but, so how do you get around that? How do you.

Derrick Clements [00:54:52] I don't think you get around it.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] So for you, Joseph is fraught.

Derrick Clements [00:54:57] Yeah, fraught for sure. Yeah, yeah, that. See, that's good. Fraught, not fraud. There you go. That's my perspective. Like I don't, I don't write them off, but I definitely, you know, I have various opinions about him and about the church as it is now. I mean, and I think so much of the church is based on Joseph Smith, but it's also based on other things that have come since Joseph Smith. So I don't know. Yeah, Anyway. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So do you see God as being behind Joseph's polygamy, for example?

Derrick Clements [00:55:28] I personally do not. I'm open to it. I mean, I'm open to somehow that being part of God's plan. But I don't see it as that. I look at the stories of Mormon polygamy and I don't necessarily see it being driven by sexual lust because there's lots of easier ways to satisfy lust than to create theologies. But I mean, but like I don't think Mormon polygamy was great and I don't think it was good or inspired. But it might have been, but it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it was to me.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Is doctrine and Covenants 132 scripture for you?

Derrick Clements [00:56:11] I mean, it's scripture in the literal sense that it's part of the canon. But yeah, like the doctrine and covenants 132 to me says polygamy is ordained of God and I am highly suspect of that because aspect of it.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] So do you feel free to reject parts of the scripture that you don't agree with or like.

Derrick Clements [00:56:32] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I feel free. I feel obligated and especially from a sense of privilege that I. Yeah, like, I think it's important that I reject some, some aspects of scripture.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] So the racist narratives in the Book of Mormon that God turns people's skin dark when they're wicked and, and that Lamanites blossom like a rose when their skin color turns lighter when they're more righteous. Do you reject that?

Derrick Clements [00:56:57] I personally do, yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] And that's pretty. That's pretty core Mormon. I mean, Book of Mormons is core Mormon doctors you can get. But, but I. But you've already. You've already established a framework, and I like it. I think it's consistent. So that's cool.

Temple Recommend and Ecclesiastical Risk

John Dehlin [00:57:11] All right, so this may or may not come as a surprise to you, and it may even be that I, maybe I was a tiny part of the framework that you've established, because if you would have asked me five years ago how I answered the temple recommend questions or how I viewed the church, I would have given almost identical answers. So I'm pretty familiar with the things you're saying because I used to hold these positions and even advocate for them. And if you go to stale, ds.com, we even wrote up a whole manual on how to stay in the church.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] But I can tell you that there came this point where, and people warned me where I started to feel dishonest in the temple recommend interview, because people, yes, I could redefine or enrich all the different terms to the point where I could feel like, yeah, everyone's a prophet, so Thomas S. Monson's a prophet, or everything Scripture. So you know, the Book of Mormon scripture.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] But I always knew that what I meant when I answered the temple recommend questions was very different than what the questioner meant when they asked them. And of course, I even provided answers to that, which is like the church intentionally keeps it vague and they're told not to add questions. And in the end, you're allowed to be your own judge of whether you're worthy. So, of course, those are the answers that I would anticipate you to give. But having said that, have you ever experienced a sense of guilt?

John Dehlin [00:58:46] That the way that. What you mean when you answer the temple recommend questions in a way that would get you a recommend are really not the way that the brethren mean when they ask them. Right now, that's assuming you want a temple recommend.

Derrick Clements [00:59:00] Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's a fair question. And I think the answer is probably yes, but yes, you've experienced some. Yeah, at least not probably guilt, but at least like checking myself and making sure that I'm being honest with myself.

Derrick Clements [00:59:17] And there have been times but. But so. But I would say my temple recommend having a temple recommend is not as important to me as being honest or being so if so, like, I would be. So there have been times when I have said things in temple recommended interviews that have bothered the person that I'M talking to. And that's. Those have led to conversations.

Derrick Clements [00:59:45] So I think the important thing is to be honest. But I also think that, yeah, the questions themselves, as you said, I would echo very briefly that the questions are vague and I don't think it's essential for every Mormon to have a temple recommend. And so if you feel comfortable with those answers, then go for it, get a temple recommend. Even if you think that maybe the person asking you might think of it differently than.

Derrick Clements [01:00:14] But I mean, for example, I would say many, many bishops and leaders asking those recommend questions, particularly on the question about, you know, do you affiliate or support people that oppose the church? There's a question that's a lot, somewhere along those lines and from. So that's been a question that I've wrestled with a lot for my. Because of course, of course I do. And including the church itself.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Right.

Derrick Clements [01:00:41] Nobody is consistent. So. But from what I can understand, there's a history to that question that has to do with polygamy, that has to do with rooting out polygamy from within the mainstream LDS church. And I would imagine that when people are worried about my friends who have left the church, they're misreading that question as much as anybody. Right. So I don't depend, I'm not sure if I'm being clear, but I don't depend on my leaders interpretation of it. I'm open to a conversation with my leaders and I'm gonna answer the questions honestly. And if they ask questions, I'm gonna, you know, have a conversation with them.

Derrick Clements [01:01:24] But I also don't see them as the gatekeeper, as the only gatekeeper. They are, they are there to help me answer those questions with God. So that's not a I can make up whatever I want kind of thing, but it is, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna just, I'm gonna disengage from readership roulette by not feeling obligated to bring about every nuance of my testimony to every leader that I have. And I, I feel totally fine about that.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] Interesting. So for you, it's a dance where you have respect for the leaders if they're acting respectfully and you're willing to, you know, consult with them or be open and disclose with them to the extent that you feel safe and that they sort of deserve that respect. But ultimately you feel like it's almost a three part decision. It's sort of like how you feel, how you think God feels, and the leader can play a part in that. But ultimately when push comes to shove, it sounds like you feel a sense of empowerment to be the one at the end of the day that assesses your temple worthiness, not the leader. Am I putting words in your mouth or does that mean.

Derrick Clements [01:02:49] I think that's a fair assessment? Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to go out, I'm not going to go outside what I understand the boundaries to be and feel like it's okay, but I'm not going to have a five hour conversation with every, every time I get that recommend.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] So, so do you have, do you, are you comfortable sharing whether you have a recommend?

Derrick Clements [01:03:10] Yeah, I do have a recommend. I mean, I got married in the temple pretty recently last, late last year. And I expect that I will probably always have a recommend. But that could change and I would feel fine about that.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] I have friends who, part of how they deal with this is they just don't ever recommend. They're active in the church, but they just, they were not gonna recommend. But that's right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop and entertain a few listener questions or comments really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Sam says John's trying to imply that Derek is heading where he is. Sam, you're wrong. Thanks for that assumption, but it's not true. I can understand why someone might think that I'm not. I think there's plenty of Richard Bushman or Terrell Givens. They, they knew way more than me for way longer. They're very committed. And I don't think, and I think they have nuanced views of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] Fiona Givens, you know, Claudia Bushman, women too. Maxine Hanks. I mean, there's plenty of, plenty of male and female adult Mormons that are not headed in any specific trajectory. I just reject that assumption that I'm trying to imply that. So, Derek, I hope you don't feel like I was implying that.

Derrick Clements [01:04:18] No, but I also wouldn't feel too bad if I felt like you were. I mean, people, we often expect that people are going to be like us or think like us, and that's fine. But I don't feel that way from what you're saying.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Okay. Several people have written. Josh writes John. I'm worried you're setting him up for excommunication. I'm going to respond quickly and say, I don't think that's true. I think, I think if Lindsay Hansen park or Natasha Helfer Parker or, you know, Gina Colvin haven't been excommunicated, I think Derek is safe. What do you say to Josh, who's worried about your church status.

Derrick Clements [01:04:52] I say, thank you for your concern. Josh. I'm not worried.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] Someone else writes that you're soon going to be released. Brian writes, I prophesy Derek will soon be released from his primary calling. Now, now, you talked about ecclesiastical roulette. Do you think it's impossible that there. I mean, do you think it's within the realm of probability that you could at some point have a leader that would hear this podcast and say, hey, Derek, you're not Mormoning the way I think you should mormon? Yeah, give me your recommend, and I'm challenging your membership? Do you see that as.

Derrick Clements [01:05:26] Oh, yeah, I see that as possibility all the time. I mean, frankly, every single time I've ever been called into the leader with my leadership in the last 10 years, I have thought, oh, here it comes. They're gonna say, we saw what you said on Facebook, or, we know something about you, your beliefs, and we don't like it. And every time it's been to give me a new calling. So, I mean, it could happen eventually. And if that were to happen, then I'd have a conversation with them. And, you know, it's. I guess there's certain aspects of that that are ultimately up to them. As I said, the church does have a history of excommunicating people for things that I don't think they should excommunicate them for, but, you know. Yeah. Anyway, so did you have.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Did you have second thoughts accepting this interview, that it could jeopardize your status as a member?

Derrick Clements [01:06:11] No.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] No.

Derrick Clements [01:06:12] I mean, yeah. I mean, if anything, I would love to be more open with my beliefs in church, and so I would love for people in my ward or my leaders to hear this interview. I also feel like it would make sense to them if they heard it. Like, one of the things I said yesterday when I. When I bore testimony was like, that. I don't really. There's a lot of things that I don't know and that. And that I don't. You know, I kind of. I kind of have a testimony that people that have heard me speak in church would be like, yeah, okay, I guess that kind of makes sense. But, yeah, I don't think people care.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Yeah, people are pretty busy with their own lives.

Derrick Clements [01:06:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Gina Colvin, whom I love, writes, people are always prophesying my release to. I can't stop getting called, so I'm often releasing myself. Sigh. Rock on, Derek Clements. That's what Gina writes.

Derrick Clements [01:07:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:05] Gina also writes, most of us are addicted to certainty either way. The tendency is to say something is true or not. The harder question to figure out is how to practice faith without requiring certainty. I honor anyone who practices faith in no man's land. Derek's like Wonder Woman. That's what Gina is.

Derrick Clements [01:07:26] We just recorded our Wonder Woman episode. It's coming out soon, so.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] And I loved Wonder Woman. I give it a double thumbs up.

Derrick Clements [01:07:35] Excellent.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] And I was suspicious of any DC sponsored movie. All right, a couple other things. Sam was saying. Ed Catmull is Mormon. Someone update the famous Mormons Wikipedia page. What would you say to that?

Derrick Clements [01:07:52] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I asked him one time when I was early in the podcast. It wasn't from my podcast Twitter account, but I was just curious. I reached out to him on Twitter and I was like, are you still practicing Mormon? And he mentioned back then, this was many years ago, that he's not anymore, but his family is. But I wouldn't say that. I mean, yeah, like, so I just think he went on an LDS mission and that's how I'll frame it, because his Mormon identity is up to him. But I love that he was raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:08:17] Okay. Dan's really interested in your interpretation of authority. I think you talked about this a little bit, but I'm gonna just prophesy that what you're gonna say is the church has authority for the church, but not necessarily authority outside the church, but maybe that's simplifying. What would you say?

Derrick Clements [01:08:34] Well, so, yes, this is a subject I've been thinking about a lot since the policy. Since the. It's so funny how even years later, we still call it the policy, but I'm referring to the fall.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] As if there's just one.

Derrick Clements [01:08:46] As if there's just one policy, because there's one that is wrong. There's probably more that are one that are wrong. But anyway, the idea that experience of the church coming out with a policy that affected or that was relating to gay couples and their children, same sex couples and their children, was one more moment in my life where I became a little bit more free to own my own moral authority. So in terms of priesthood authority, like we talked about that already, but in terms of like, moral authority, the church has authority over me, but also the church doesn't. Like, ultimately, the church leaders are gonna do what they're gonna do, and my job is to be where I am in the church.

Derrick Clements [01:09:30] But I think it's been really important for me to take the steps of adopting my own moral authority and trusting my own moral authority when on those really very few Issues, but nevertheless pressing issues that put me at odds with the mainstream Mormonism and the church leadership.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] Yeah, and what. So that makes sense. And I love that idea of no matter what, who you are, claim your own moral authority. I think that's fabulous. What about the church's authority outside of

Derrick Clements [01:10:06] the church in terms of like priesthood, anything.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] Like, does the church have any authority, God sanctioned authority over, you know, the rest of mankind?

Derrick Clements [01:10:18] The way that I understand, I mean, I have a very orthodox answer to this, I think because the way that I Understand Doctrine Covenants 121 is that anytime anyone exercises authority over others just by virtue of being a church leader, they are not acting in a God sanctioned way. So no, I don't think so. But I think that the church has the capability to do a lot of good. But I don't think there's any way in which somebody is over somebody else. I think that all those administrative infrastructure things in the church where people are over other people, those are important for making the church run as an institution that can sustain itself. But I fear all too often that authority ends up being way overblown and people give it way more credence than they, than they ought to.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] I love it. Brian is doing some boundary maintenance. Brian writes, I don't see how he can fit these nuanced beliefs into his previous statements that he is fully committed and fully active. So Brian is trying to draw a circle with you outside of the circle.

Derrick Clements [01:11:25] He's not alone. And I don't dismiss it like, look, I mean, okay, yeah, I'm not Mormon according to that definition and that's fine, I'm fine with that. But the reason that I say the words fully active and fully committed, I mean, I go to church, I serve in the church, I see the world through a Mormon lens. I take it on as my identity, I interrogate it, yes, but I adopt it and I celebrate it and I cherish it. And so yeah, I understand, I understand the impulse to be like, he is not acting like what I want him to act like. And again, I see it from post Mormons and from Mormons alike. People are unhappy with my Mormonism and

John Dehlin [01:12:11] Gina says the same thing. But people need to claim their own Mormonism. Jordan asked probably my favorite question of the day, and it's a technical one in the realm of psychology. She basically says, have you ever explored looking at LDS truth claims through a functional contextual framework as in acceptance commitment therapy rather than a formal content oriented one? Jordan knows that I acceptance commitment to therapy is the form of therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy that I've been trained in. And if I were to summarize what she's saying, there's sort of the validity approach to Mormonism and then there's the utility approach to Mormonism. And she's basically saying, what about, forget the validity approach of whether it's true or not. How about just the. The utilitarian view, which is, it works for me and so I'm in it because it works for me. How would you respond to that?

Derrick Clements [01:13:07] Well, I'm curious if there's something we could add to that or expand on it because. So is it true? And I would answer, yeah, sort of. But the question, is it functional? I would also not answer a resounding yes. Right. Like, it's not always functional. So I don't know, is there room for a third way? Like just it is what it is and there's a spirituality or there's a spiritual component to it, or there's a. I don't know. I mean, from a psychological perspective, I definitely see it having truth claims value, but not completely. I see it having functional value, but not completely. And I guess I'm just in it again, really, because of identity.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] Yeah, I love it. There's a lot of good comments that I'm not able to get to, but there's some really good stuff. Jeffrey's made a lot of good comments. So I'm going to read a comment from Jeffrey. Jeffrey writes a prerequisite to a discussion about middle way Mormonism should be a discussion of external authority and internal authority. Even if the church leaders state what the church is and isn't, there's enough history changes and contradictions to justify someone Mormoning how they like. That's more of a comment than a question. What would you say to Jeffrey's comment?

Derrick Clements [01:14:19] Yeah, only that what it makes me think about is that the leaders are the police in terms of what is Mormon. But way more. In my life, it's been just other members that are way more concerned about policing Mormon identities. Of course it comes from the top in a lot of ways, but I have my personal beliefs and suspicions that there are many leaders at the top of the church hierarchy that might have similar views. And I see people, the people that have been most vigorous, vigorously suspicious of my approach to Mormonism have been not leaders. So far, I've not had problems with leaders generally speaking.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] Got it. Someone asks, Melissa asked, does your spouse support your views?

Derrick Clements [01:15:09] Yeah. I mean, yes. I mean, so I actually met Katie through kind of discussing Mormon kind of issues and Stuff, So we don't agree on everything, but I love her very much, and we agree on a lot.

Responding to Critics of the Middle Way

John Dehlin [01:15:24] All right, Sam writes, John, why in the hell do you care so much why someone else's personal faith is so nuanced if it doesn't fit your narrow paradigm? Do you want to defend me against Sam, Derek?

Derrick Clements [01:15:37] I mean, I feel. I don't feel that way. That's how I'll defend. I don't feel like you're doing that.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Okay. Yeah, I just. I think the Open Stories foundation is committed to supporting people who are trying to stay in the church or who feel like the church doesn't work for them. Sam, whether it's Mormon Matters podcast or Thoughtful Faith podcast or the Thoughtful Faith Facebook group, we support. We acknowledge and support and even validate and throw resources behind the exact life that Derek is trying to model and live.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] And we want those who feel the desire or the need to remain Mormon to be able to do it in a healthy way. So this is 100% in line with the Open Stories foundation, and this is not me having a hang up and trying to get Derek to be like me.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] That's. That's gross. So that's my. That's my response to Sam. Really quickly, Sam. Oh, and Sam is saying, that was for Brian, not me. So I misread what Sam wrote. So sorry, Sam's. Sam's anger was pointed at Brian, not me. Sam says he's on Team John. Okay, so sorry, Sam. Final and so final question. Well, not final question, but at least one final question is, what about the pain the church causes, whether it's lgbt, suicides, divorce, depression, shame messages that women get that they're inferior.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] Just the many, many ways that the shunning that happens, all the stuff that you see in the Scientology movies, there's a measure of that that happens in Mormonism. How do you remain and not. And number one, feel good in your own conscience, but then also, how do you remain and not feel like you're complicit in the harm? If you pay money, if you give your reputation to the church, if you volunteer your time to support the church, do you ever feel like you're complicit in the harm that the church is causing people?

Derrick Clements [01:17:54] Yeah, I do sometimes. And I don't. I don't have a good. I mean, this is in some ways the whole point of this conversation, and I wish I had a great answer to it. I hope that the things that I've said up until this point, I can kind of just point back to that, because I have. I don't know. Like, I think that the church has been one.

Derrick Clements [01:18:17] Has been a force for good and ill in this world and along with many other institutions that I also affiliate with and that I also am a part of. And I have a story that I tell myself that I hope that I am gonna be able to be critically thinking about it. I mean, critical thinking and criticism is key and helpful. I think, in that of, like, being able to be willing to definitely say yes. There are going to be things that I reject, like, you have to have that you can't just say, I'm gonna accept everything no matter what.

Derrick Clements [01:18:53] But it's. I don't know. All I can do is be where I am and serve where I am and try to do the best that I can where I can. But because of my own privilege, I'm sure that I'm blinded to a lot of that.

Derrick Clements [01:19:06] That said, I do know that me being Mormon has been good and bad. Like, it's been bad, but it's also been good. I've been able to help people as a Mormon that I wouldn't have or that I, you know, whatever. I don't know. It's. It's a tough question. I don't really have a good answer to it.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] So when Sylvan writes, there's an immense destruction when it comes to psychological problems related to being raised in Mormonism, and you're part of it, Derek, what would you say to that?

Derrick Clements [01:19:34] It hasn't been my experience. And.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] And have you seen that? Have you seen that in other people's lives?

Derrick Clements [01:19:41] Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's very. It's. I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's the church. Being raised in a church or joining a church that you later learn is different than what you understood it to be can be a very damaging thing. And my only hope and wish is that people can work through their moments of disillusionment and disenchantment in the most constructive and positive way that they can, whether that's in the church or outside the church. But disillusionment is a huge, powerfully disruptive force in life. And while I actually honor that, and I'm glad for that, in many ways, that reality that people might get shaken out of their mindsets, but, like, the actual harm that is done by Mormons, I think I'm somewhat responsible for as a Mormon that continues to claim to be Mormon.

Derrick Clements [01:20:38] And I don't know exactly what to do about that, but I Don't think it's to leave, but it's to do something probably more than I'm doing.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] So that's. I mean, that's a really sophisticated. From my view as a, you know, as a trained psychologist, that's a really sophisticated view to just say, yeah, the church causes harm. And in some ways, I'm complicit and I don't have a good answer. I mean, to me, that's a lot better than trying to justify. Not that you have to answer. To me. There are a couple. There are a couple, let's just say a little bit challenging questions that our listeners are posting. Yeah. And I'm going to offer to you in a sacred way, not belittling you or judging you, but just saying, man, how do you respond to some of these tougher questions?

Derrick Clements [01:21:25] Okay, I'll do my best.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Thomas says Derek's got a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. What would you say to Thomas?

Derrick Clements [01:21:32] I mean, I guess I would want to know what. What he means by that. Of course.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] We always have things conflicted in your mind. You're conflicted and tormented.

Derrick Clements [01:21:43] Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely conflicted. Yeah. Yeah, like. But I think I'm honest. I think that I'm trying my best to have integrity. I think that one of the pillars of my middle way, Mormonism, is definitely that thing of just not saying things that are dishonest or that I think are dishonest because how? Well, because there's already enough cognitive dissonance that's just going to be part of life by actually going against my own integrity verbally. Like, for me, that's just a line that I have chosen to try to really, really avoid. But, yeah, I'm filled with cognitive dissonance, but it's not. It doesn't cause me torment. It's just. There's paradoxes in this life, in this world.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Beautiful. Here's the question that Brendan writes that is pretty pointed, and I think there's an assumption here that I could see you taking issue with. But Brendan says unless Derek is hurt by the Church himself, he won't have a good answer. His privilege shields him from the hurt that others have felt and experience.

Derrick Clements [01:23:01] Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I tried to stipulate that from the. From the beginning, but I guess. What's the answer? So does that mean nobody should be Mormon unless they believe. Really? I was gonna say stupid things, but that's not what I think. Like. Like, is Mormonism big enough to hold various viewpoints? I hope so. And that's what I'm advocating for. But. Yeah, I understand. Am I getting at the question? I don't know. You tell me.

John Dehlin [01:23:32] Well, I think you are. And I almost want to help you out a little bit, Even though I 100% feel what Sylvan is saying. First of all, she's assuming. Let's see. Let me find. Oh, no, this is Brendan. So, first of all, Brendan is assuming that you haven't ever been hurt by the church.

Derrick Clements [01:23:49] Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:50] And I'm guessing that's not true.

Derrick Clements [01:23:52] Yeah, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say that that's true. But I'm sure that the pain that I've experienced as a Mormon is. Doesn't compare with the pains of other people.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Yeah. And then. And then again, Brendan, sort of assuming that you're not in tune or empathetic with the pain that other people are experiencing.

Derrick Clements [01:24:12] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Would you say that's true or.

Derrick Clements [01:24:14] I see what you're saying. Like the idea that. No, I would not say that. That is how I see myself. Like, a lot of the pain that I have experienced as a Mormon comes from noticing the pain that exists within our community. I've tried in some small ways to help alleviate that pain, but I get that response, and I fully get. If people don't respect my choice to be Mormon, like, I fully respect that opinion.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] And you stay in spite of the harm that the church causes because what.

Derrick Clements [01:24:50] Let's see.

John Dehlin [01:24:51] Because it feels good and it works. How would you. What would you add to that?

Derrick Clements [01:24:56] Well, and it's who I.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] It's who I am.

Derrick Clements [01:24:58] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, the church. I don't know. Yeah, Those, those, those things. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] It feels. It feels good. It works in my life and it's. And it's who I am. Right?

Derrick Clements [01:25:13] Yes. Yeah, let's go with that.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] And I'm just summarizing kind of the points that we arrived at earlier.

Derrick Clements [01:25:21] Right. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] I'll read one more comment, and then I think it's time for us to close. This is from Jeffrey again, and I'd love to hear your response to Jeffrey. John is bringing up the idea that by participating, belonging to a church which causes harm and pushes an untrue narrative makes one complicit in those harms. Jeffrey says, I think this idea is faulty. Staying or leaving doesn't have an effect on the organization as a whole. However, one can make changes on the dynamics of the church on a local level. Yeah. A mirror image of this argument, which is also faulty, is that those who leave just solidify the harmful aspects of the church and make the church even more likely to remain entrenched in the wrong, harmful aspects of its teachings and actions.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] I would guess you wouldn't disagree with Jeffrey, but at the same time, your engagement has to do with more things than just whether or not you're helping alleviate the harm.

Derrick Clements [01:26:17] That's right. Yeah. And, yeah, because I also don't. I don't stay Mormon so that I can fix Mormonism because that would just. That would be unsustainable. So I have to have some acceptance that I'm not in the driver's seat in terms of a lot of institutional changes. What I am in the driver's seat for is myself, my beliefs, my own body. And so I am navigating that, and I am trying to do that the most ethical way that I can. And I am grateful that as I do that there are things that I'm being changed by the church for good, and the church is being changed for the good because of me. And there's a relationship that I. That I value there. But again, it's this. This question of privileges is one that I really do worry about and think about, and I'm certain that I don't do a good enough job of addressing.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:27:16] Well, Derek Clements, I have loved this conversation with you. I know that I came kind of hard at your position, and I respected that. In spite of the fact that the overwhelming number of people who comment on my Facebook page don't share your point of view, that you were willing to challenge me and disagree with me, and even more so that you'd be willing to come on and share your perspective. Because I think, well, I respect your position and I say that sincerely, and I think it is a position of integrity, and I think there's going to be a lot of people that draw inspiration from it. So thank you.

Derrick Clements [01:27:59] Thank you very much, John. I really have enjoyed this conversation, too. And, yeah, thanks for the invitation.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] I hope you felt respected.

Derrick Clements [01:28:06] Have you felt I have, Yes. I haven't looked at the comments yet, though, so I don't know. That feeling might change, but they're not too bad.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] They're not too bad. All right. Do you want to give a shout out really quickly to any of your websites or projects just for the listeners who might want to follow more of what you do or your column or whatever?

Derrick Clements [01:28:24] Yeah, sure. Well, the work that I do is all put@derekclements.com although it's several months. I haven't updated in a while. It's Kind of in the backlog. Listeners to this might most be interested in this latest project I'm doing with Gina Colvin. Cheeky Mormon Movie review. We cheekily review movies through a Mormon lens. And that's just on her thoughtful faith podcast feed. People can check out. We have two reviews up so far and our third review.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] Which ones? Which ones?

Derrick Clements [01:28:50] So we reviewed Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2.

John Dehlin [01:28:53] Loved it.

Derrick Clements [01:28:54] Yeah. And we reviewed get out and we had great conversations. I really enjoyed talking about those movies with her.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] You can't review R rated movies on open source foundation. Yeah, I know.

Derrick Clements [01:29:04] Sorry. We tried to sneak it in. I just blew it. I just let you know.

John Dehlin [01:29:07] And Wonder Woman's next.

Derrick Clements [01:29:09] And Wonder Woman's next. Yep, that's the next one.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] And it's you and Gina reviewing the movie.

Derrick Clements [01:29:12] Yeah, yeah, she and I are doing it together.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] And is Pixar podcast still going strong?

Derrick Clements [01:29:16] It is.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] Yep.

Derrick Clements [01:29:17] Yep, it is. So people, listeners that are want to learn behind the scenes of Pixar can check that out. Pixarpodcast.com and John, I don't know if we'll do this. I know that a lot of episodes you sort of end with people kind of just saying what they believe. I would love to have an opportunity to do that.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] Go for it.

Derrick Clements [01:29:35] Okay. I mean, there's just a couple points that we haven't talked about that I'd like to. I want to read this quote from Reza Aslan, a Muslim writer. And it kind of touches on something that I said earlier. My friend Davey pointed it out. The same Davey that was on this conversation earlier, actually, I would imagine. And he says, let me be clear, I am Muslim. Not because I think Islam is truer than other religions. It isn't. But because Islam provides me with the language I feel most comfortable with in expressing my faith. It provides me with certain symbols and metaphors for thinking about God that I find useful in making sense of the universe and my place in it.

Derrick Clements [01:30:12] And that's something that really resonates with me. Mormonism is the language that I use to speak in the world. But it's not like any language. It's not perfect. And there are others that I'm eager to learn as well. But Mormonism for me is my first language and is the one that I'm comfortable with. And the other, the other thing that I would mention is this isn't one of the things that I've written in the past. Maybe we'll link to it. But I came across this great scripture in Mark 10 in the new Testament. Where there's this character, this man, this blind man who calls out for Jesus.

Derrick Clements [01:30:44] And what happens in this chapter is everybody around him says, no, like, shut up. Like, you're calling out for Jesus. Don't, don't. You're making a fuss. And I understand that. Like, I resonate a lot with that, with this notion that I'm making a fuss or that people don't like the way that I'm reaching out to Jesus, or people don't like the way that I'm reaching out to God or that I'm engaging in Mormonism. But what's this beautiful thing that happens in this story, in this passage, is he just persists anyway. He continues reaching for God, not bringing attention to himself, but reaching for God. And even when people don't think he should do that for various reasons, maybe people think that Jesus is not a good person to follow, or maybe people think that Jesus is the best and you shouldn't bother him.

Derrick Clements [01:31:31] There's a whole host of reasons why people tell people, other people to shut up in their engagement toward God. And I have experienced, experienced that, where people have told me not to engage in Mormonism for a whole host of reasons. But I have so far, and I have felt a goodness and a light in my life and coming out of myself toward others because of that engagement with Mormonism. So whatever I believe or I don't believe, it changes all the time. It's not what I hang my hat on, but my identity and my language of Mormonism is who I am.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] I love it. Well, I'm looking at the closing comments, and if it's Ashley, Kimberly, Katie, Melissa, Lindy, Sam Sylvan, Eddie Davey, they all say that they love listening. They say, yay, Derek. They say, good luck. They say, thank you. Good work. So a lot of people loved your thoughts with us today, Derek, so thank you for sharing.

Derrick Clements [01:32:32] Well, thank you, John. I really enjoy talking to you. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:32:35] All right, Derek, appreciate it. Thanks for joining us. And I'll just tell listeners thanks to everyone for tuning in. Thanks to all the live listeners on Facebook Live who commented. Your comments and questions make this a much more enriching experience. I want to thank Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton for their support as producers. I want to thank everyone who supports the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations go to support the foundation. So Cody and Amy and I all get paid for the work we do. And it's your support that makes that possible. It's all tax deductible. So if you value Mormon stories or thoughtful faith or Mormon matters or any of the things we do.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] Mormon mental health please donate 10 $25 a month can make all the difference. We're transparent in our finances, we share them every year and we listen to the feedback of our of our listeners if it's constructive and we want to keep doing better. So please support us if you can. Thanks to all those who do support us and please please email us or contact us anytime if you want to support us. If you have ideas for any of our series, our series on Losing the Lamanites on Navigating the Middle Way, we're interested so please send us your comments or feedback. And again, if you're interested in the Dallas retreat, in the Mixed Faith Marriage retreat, in the Seattle workshop, in the Sydney Australia retreat, in the Bay Area workshop, please go to mormonstories.org events and sign up. We'd love to have you. So thanks again to all the listeners. We love you guys. Derek, you're awesome and we'll talk soon.

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