Welcome and Introduction to Lexi McDonald

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 21, 2021, and we are recording here in the Mormon Stories podcast studios in Holiday, Utah. And I am super over the moon excited to have our guest today. Our guest is the Exmolex or Lexi MacDonald. Welcome, Lexi.

Lexi McDonald [00:00:21] Hi. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] So good to have you.

Lexi McDonald [00:00:23] Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Yeah. For those of you who don't know, for the three of you who don't know, Exmolex is a YouTube sensation and now a TikTok sensation. But she probably is the leader. I mean, Mormon Stories does okay. Zelf on the shelf is amazing. There are other ones coming up, up and comers, of course. Jimmy Snow is amazing, but Exmoor, Lex, kind of you, you kind of dominate the ex Mormon YouTube world. Is that fair to say or.

Lexi McDonald [00:00:52] No, I don't think so. I don't think so, but no, I do.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] One thing that's for sure is, is Lexi's super loved. Like, at some point you mentioned that you might come on Mormon Stories, and I got a barrage of messages from her followers saying, you got to interview Lexi McDonald. So welcome to Mormon Stories.

Carah Burrell [00:01:09] Thank you.

Lexi McDonald [00:01:11] Happy to be here. Super exciting. This was kind of where my ex Mormon journey started, so it's really surreal being here to be interviewed.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] Yeah. And we're going to just be doing the traditional faith journey, so that's what we're in for. Lexi McDonald's faith journey. She's a powerhouse on social media, but she's got, like, all of us, a really cool story behind it. And if that weren't enough, we also have Carah Burrell back in studio. NuanceHoe on TikTok and on YouTube.

Carah Burrell [00:01:43] Yeah, I just started my YouTube channel,

John Dehlin [00:01:44] so with Samantha Shelley. It's called.

Carah Burrell [00:01:48] Mine is just my NuanceHoe channel. And sometimes I do projects with Sam Shelley from Zapajo, and that project is called Girl Reclined, which is a spoof on Girl Defined, which is a Christian ministry YouTube channel. So I do lots of satire and other stuff. And yeah, Lexi is definitely. I. I'm going to echo John's words. Definitely powerhouse. Definitely cannot be caught. She's taken the YouTube ex Mormon world. She's definitely owns it.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] And tick tock.

Carah Burrell [00:02:17] And tick tock.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] All right, well, well, Alexi, thanks so much for coming. You came from Idaho.

Lexi McDonald [00:02:25] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] You're here from Idaho.

Lexi McDonald [00:02:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] And we just want to hear your Mormon story. So let's jump in. Where does your Mormon story begin? Unless there's some precursor or some sort of intro you want to offer before we jump in?

Lexi McDonald [00:02:38] No, it's fine. Disclaimers start at the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] So where do you start? Where does your Mormon jury journey begin?

Lexi McDonald [00:02:45] Kind of begins like way back when the church was founded, because that's when my family joined the church. I believe that my first ancestor to join the church was baptized in probably 1836 or 1837. So that's kind of where my story starts, at least as far as the Mormon side of it.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Okay, Yeah. I think you mentioned you're a seventh generation.

Lexi McDonald [00:03:06] I am, yeah. And family history and like our pioneer ancestry and stuff was really important, like to learn about within my family. My grandparents were really into talking about it and doing family history and indexing and all that kind of stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:03:20] So we learned a lot about just our ancestors and how, you know, they were incorporated into the history of the church. One of my great, great, great grandfathers was an actually pretty prominent figure within the church. He, his name is Robert Taylor Burton. He was actually mentioned, I don't know if you remember that one Mormon pioneer movie. I think it's called 17 Miracles. He was mentioned in the credits of that movie. He was a. He was in the Presiding Bishopric and he was an officer in the Nauvoo Legion, and he was a polygamist and crossed the plains. So he was like somebody that was talked about a lot in our family as like a really great person.

Lexi McDonald [00:04:04] He wrote a book and every member of my family owns a copy of the book, but he's kind of where it all started. And my whole family, every grandparent and parent all the way up down to me, has been Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] So multi generational. Not a lot of breaks in the chain, so to speak.

Lexi McDonald [00:04:25] No, not hardly at all. And none of the grandparents, like every parent all the way down the line has been a member.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] So your ancestors come from kind of what, geographical regions kind of in the West?

Lexi McDonald [00:04:40] Well, most of them either traveled like, I guess if you're starting like in the 1800s, most of them traveled either from England or Canada. Robert Taylor Burton's family was from Canada and he immigrated here and then crossed the plains to Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] And when. And you know, are we talking like Utah, Idaho, Nevada, once they started settling,

Lexi McDonald [00:05:00] pretty much just Utah. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] So your ancestors are Utah. Okay. Okay. But you're not from Utah.

Lexi McDonald [00:05:07] I am from Utah. I moved to Boise about six or seven years ago.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Oh, okay.

Lexi McDonald [00:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Okay. So tell anything you want to tell us about your grandparents or parents, kind of that, that is More immediately tied to you and your Mormon story.

Lexi McDonald [00:05:19] My both? Well, all of my grandparents and my parents are very, I would say average, but, you know, strict Mormons. We've all lived in Utah for a really long time. So the Utah culture, Mormon culture is and always has been a huge part of my life. You know, we're like the funeral potatoes Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] Really?

Lexi McDonald [00:05:40] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Hawaiian haystacks and green jello.

Lexi McDonald [00:05:43] Yep. Like, every Sunday after church. But, yeah, I mean, and they all still are very much that way. I feel like my dad's side of the family may be a little bit less strict than my mom's side. And my mom's side is where the Burtons come from. And that has always been very,

John Dehlin [00:06:04] you

Lexi McDonald [00:06:04] know, the kind of Mormons that, like, are super into making sure. We always do family home evening. So not only would my family do, like, family home evenings with just our little family, we would also do huge family home evenings with the whole extended family. My grandma would prepare this huge thing for all the grandkids.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Multi generational family home evening. That's a new one on Mormon stories.

Lexi McDonald [00:06:22] We would do it every month when I was a kid. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Wow. And what city are you living in as a kid?

Lexi McDonald [00:06:28] I lived in Mapleton, Utah, for most of my life.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Now. That's south of Provo, right?

Lexi McDonald [00:06:32] Yeah. Down by Springville.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Springville. Okay. Okay. So your parents. Where do you know where your parents met? Where'd your parents meet?

Family Background and Growing Up in Utah

Lexi McDonald [00:06:43] I believe they met in, like, Salt Lake County, Utah County. My mom was a daycare worker, and my dad took my two half brothers to her daycare, and that's where they met.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Okay. I assume you're related to Bishop Burton, the Presiding Bishop for many, many years.

Lexi McDonald [00:06:59] Just probably. Probably. I believe, and I could be wrong on this, but I know that Robert Taylor Bur was in the Presiding Bishopric in the late 1800s, and I believe that one of his children was also in the Presiding Bishopric, so that's probably who that is. But he had three wives, so obviously I only come from one of those lines.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Okay, so your. Your parents were married in the temple? I'm. I'm guessing. Yes. And you say you mentioned a half brother. Does that mean one of your parents was married previously?

Lexi McDonald [00:07:29] Yeah, both of my parents were married before they married each other. My mom didn't have any children in her previous marriage, but my dad had two son. Um, but I mean, they met and got married when my brothers were really little, and they've never really been like, half brothers or stepbrothers to me. It's just been my brothers for my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Okay, okay.

Carah Burrell [00:07:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] So you were. You were born. What year were you born?

Lexi McDonald [00:07:53] 1993.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] 93. Okay. And talk about your upbringing.

Lexi McDonald [00:07:58] It was very, very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] So family evenings.

Lexi McDonald [00:08:02] Yeah, so I grew up on a small farm.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Okay, wait, so your parents having been. Already divorced, both of them, before they married each other, was that a thing in, like, their psyche? And did you ask questions? Was that.

Lexi McDonald [00:08:14] Not really.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] Like, was there anything you want to talk about that. That's not.

Lexi McDonald [00:08:18] To me, it wasn't like, I. And I was a baby and a little kid, and I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Their previous.

Lexi McDonald [00:08:23] I knew my dad's wife. Previous wife, but I didn't know her well. We only saw her like once or twice a year, and she just wasn't really a big part of my life at all.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Okay. Yeah, but there were kids from your dad's first marriage?

Lexi McDonald [00:08:37] Yeah, they. They spent some time with her, but they were. I mean, it was like they would see her for like, a couple weeks in the summer and like a week in the winter kind of a thing. So they were mostly just with us.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Did he ever explain to you what happened that. That you want to share?

Lexi McDonald [00:08:50] I mean, it's not really important to the story.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] That's cool. Okay, so. Okay, so you had some half brothers, some older half brothers, and just normal family, Mormon family life.

Lexi McDonald [00:09:00] Yeah. And we. I grew up in a pretty rural area. I grew up in, you know, for the first, like, five years of my life, we lived in Benjamin, Utah, which is out by Spanish Fork in Payson. And at the time, I don't know how it is anymore, but at the time it was very rural and we lived on a farm with some acreage, so we had, you know, horses, cows, sheep, ducks, chickens, all that kind of stuff. And that's kind of the life that I grew up just being around animals.

Lexi McDonald [00:09:24] And we were super, super Mormon from the very beginning. Obviously, you know, I told you my family goes way back. And so that was just life for us. And I. Some people ask me sometimes, like, well, did you ever question it? But I. It was just like, it was taught to me as reality. Not, this is our beliefs. It was just, this is. This is how it is. This is what happened with Joseph Smith, and this is what happened. So it wasn't really like a. This is what we believe. It was like a. They're just teaching me about life. And that was. Yeah. So my whole identity and my whole. Everything was wrapped up in it.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Yeah. Any happy, positive Mormon memories as a kid? What are your best memories just as a child, either at church or at home? Just Mormon memories as a kid?

Childhood Memories and Early Faith

Lexi McDonald [00:10:11] I wouldn't say there's necessarily anything about, like, Mormonism as a kid that was this huge great thing. I do remember being really little and enjoying the trunk or treat thing that Mormons do instead of trick or treating because my mom was terrified of people that weren't Mormon. And so I do remember, like doing that as a little kid and we did 4H with the animals. I don't know how much the church was involved in all of that, but I do remember, like all of the, you know, when you got your trophy, if you did good or whatever, we did that at the church building. And so to me, it felt like church thing because everybody there was Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] Is that like Future Farmers of America?

Lexi McDonald [00:10:51] Yeah, it's kind of. Kind of that kind of thing where you like raise, like raise a lamb and show it at a show and get a trophy or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So I remember that being at the church building and everybody that did it, like all of our ward members kind of did it and all the kids did it. So I don't think it was necessarily a church related activity, but it felt like it at the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] I always ask this, but did you have any favorite primary songs? Do you remember going to primary and.

Carah Burrell [00:11:19] Oh, yeah.

Lexi McDonald [00:11:20] What you learn might be a little bit cringy, but my two favorite songs were Joseph Smith's First Prayer.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] That.

Lexi McDonald [00:11:28] That was a hymn, that one. Yeah. And then the one that was like, I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. I always felt like it was kind of like a fight song, you know what I mean? Like, it made me feel like God's plan. Yeah. It made me feel like I was on a team or something.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And so you were vibing on all the Mormon stuff as a kid?

Lexi McDonald [00:11:50] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay.

Lexi McDonald [00:11:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] And your dad had leadership roles or.

Lexi McDonald [00:11:55] Yeah, he. He was actually in the. In the young men's for probably like 10 years before he started getting into leadership apart from that. But it was like super, super important to him. He spent like a ton of time and a ton of money doing the, you know, the campouts and all of that stuff. So like I said, it went on for years where he would be gone on the campouts every summer. And he. He had a really special relationship with a lot of the kids because we moved into this ward and he was made a scout leader, like, right after we moved in. And

Lexi McDonald [00:12:33] so I kind of grew up with these boys my age that my dad knew really well and probably when I started, I was probably like 14 or 15, he was called into the bishopric and he did that for a number of years as well and eventually was in the High Council.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Okay, all right. So what else do you want to tell us about your kind of Mormon childhood or youth?

Perfectionism and Unquestioned Belief as a Child

Lexi McDonald [00:13:01] I think that kind of an important part of me being a kid was one that I never questioned the church. I never thought that it could be anything except reality. And also that I was very much a perfectionist. And a lot of that came from being told that there were certain requirements that you had to meet in order to get to heaven. To get to the temple, there were certain requirements you had to meet. And it caused me a lot of anxiety as a little kid because one of my oldest brother.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] Tell our non Mormon listeners what some of those requirements are.

Lexi McDonald [00:13:38] Well, just all of the things like no swearing and no getting extra piercings and not going anywhere on Sundays except for church. You have to keep the Sabbath day holy, being, you know, kind and charitable and forgiving and all those kinds of things. Yeah, and. Oh yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there was a whole lot to that. But as a little kid, like, I just knew that you had to be really, really good because Jesus was perfect and we had to be like Jesus.

Lexi McDonald [00:14:10] And so my oldest brother, who was 10 years older than me, so he left home when I was pretty young and he stopped going to church after he left. And my parents kind of always used him as an example of what not to do and how it's really, really sad that he's like fallen away and all this stuff. And so I had a lot of fears like as a little kid about like, well, does that mean that he's not going to be in heaven with us? Like, what's going to happen? And my parents would just kind of do the like, well, you know, we don't know what's going to happen later in life.

Lexi McDonald [00:14:44] But you know, and it just, it scared me thinking that how it's not, it's not fair that he won't be with us because he's not a member of the church. And it really scared me into never wanting that to happen to me because I wanted to be with my family forever. And so I had a lot of anxiety about following the church rules to a T.

Lexi McDonald [00:15:05] And if I didn't, I would have a lot of like, just guilt and self doubt and blame and it gave me crippling anxiety as a child. So I became very much a perfectionist. And not only with church things but with everything else as well. So I was really in school, you know, strive for perfect attendance and straight A's and doing really well in all my extracurricular activities and always being at every single church activity and all of that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Yeah. I mean, the term that I learned a while back was scrupulosity, which is like hyper conscientiousness, hyper honesty, kind of hyper perfectionism.

Lexi McDonald [00:15:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Which is not just a Mormon thing, but it seems like Mormonism can exacerbate that in a highly conscientious person.

Lexi McDonald [00:15:54] Yeah. And as a. I mean, it really affected me as a little kid. And it's the kind of thing that I wasn't really aware of until I've gotten older and started to look back on some of the things that happened in my life as a little kid. But there was a point when I was, like, 10 years old where I hadn't paid my tithing yet that month, and a picture of Jesus fell off my wall and hit me in the head. And it hurt really bad. I had a huge gash and was bleeding everywhere. And my mom came in to, like, help me and, you know, see if I needed stitches or anything.

Lexi McDonald [00:16:28] And I was so little. But I thought that the reason that had happened was because I hadn't paid my tithing yet. And I said that out loud and nobody corrected me. They let me think that. And I've looked back on that and thought, like, holy crap. As a little kid, I really thought that I was being punished by Jesus for not paying my tithing, which would have been probably like a dollar.

Lexi McDonald [00:16:54] So I don't know. It really affected the way I looked at the world. When things that were bad happened, I often blamed myself for them and would point to certain things that had happened in my life thinking, I didn't do this good enough. So this bad thing happened to me, and it was God trying to punish me or remind me of what I should do.

Carah Burrell [00:17:17] That's crazy that nobody corrected you. And when you're forming a testimony as a child and you're trying to understand the nature of God, and God is somebody who would smack you in the head with a picture of himself. Yeah. If you don't pay him. Yeah, the mob boss.

Lexi McDonald [00:17:31] I mean, I said that to my mom the day it happened, and she just was like, oh, like, maybe that is so. I mean, at the time, it didn't, like, occur to me that that was bizarre. But now looking back, I'm like, I would never say that to my kid. Like, yeah, absolutely, that happened because you didn't pay.

Carah Burrell [00:17:49] That's terrible.

Lexi McDonald [00:17:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Yeah. Okay. So hyper conscientious. Yeah. Were there parts of Mormon doctrine that weighed on you heavily? Aside from like, heaven and that sort of thing?

Teenage Years and Spiritual Life in the Church

Lexi McDonald [00:18:02] Honestly, not really.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] What about the Lucifer stuff? I think I saw that in the. In the outline.

Lexi McDonald [00:18:07] Oh, I. Yeah, that was a. That was a thing that bothered me. I actually remember crying to my mom about how it seemed so awful that Lucifer, Satan was our brother when we were all in heaven and, you know, he had rebelled and all of this stuff, and now he's trying to tempt us into making bad choices. And I remember being a little kid and being so sad about that and crying to my mom and being like, it's not like how, like just picturing my own brothers and thinking, like, how could he, as our brother, do that to us and want that? And I also wondered. I mean, it's not like he's, you know, he's probably read the Book of Mormon, right. So doesn't he know what happens at the end? That part never made sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Right. Yeah, yeah. Satan's role in the theology. Why does God let Satan run around and do these things? And why does he have power over us? And how is that fair? Yeah, I was bothered by that stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:19:10] Yeah. But it was not like a deal breaker for me. I was just a little kid having little kid thoughts and wondering like, you know, and I would always get the like, well, God works in mysterious ways and we won't find out till after, but it'll be all fine and blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] All right, so how did that evolve into your teen years?

Lexi McDonald [00:19:29] So the anxiety I had as a kid got really bad as a teenager. I had always done super, super well in school. Straight A student. And if I ever wasn't, I mean, that was a problem. My parents, like, really motivated me to get good grades. They would give me money or good things for getting good grades, but I would, if I had like a B or a C, I could end up getting grounded or having things taken away. And so I had always done really well in school as a kid, and I did a lot of extracurriculars. I was in horseback riding, so I was doing like horse shows and all that kind of stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:20:05] I was playing the piano and super, super busy with that. I had to practice for at least an hour a day, every day. And so just with everything that was going on, by the time I made it to high school, I ended up going to a chart. It was a public charter school that was connected to Utah Valley University, where you would take high school classes and then leave campus and go take college classes at the same time. So I was like 14 and 15, taking college classes at the UVU campus.

Lexi McDonald [00:20:36] And that was a lot. It was really, really tough. I thought that I could do it before, but once I started class and I was doing all of this other stuff with the church because, you know, I was also really into doing my personal progress when I was younger. I did the activity days, things that they used to do.

Lexi McDonald [00:20:56] And so I. I was 100% involved in every church activity, which is a thing that my parents required. Like, going to mutual every week was a thing that wasn't optional. Like, we had to be there. And so just with all of my extracurricular activities, trying to do really well in school, trying to keep up with the church and do it all exactly right, because I was a perfectionist. It was way too much for me. And I started to sink pretty quickly after I started in high school. At that school, I couldn't keep up with the coursework. I couldn't keep up with all the college classes and stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:21:34] It was. It was just too much. And I, you know, I was trying and not doing super well, but I was trying. And then in the middle of all of that, my horse passed away. And it was. It was a really big deal for me because that was, you know, my number one thing that I love to do was ride my horse. And I.

Lexi McDonald [00:22:06] When that night that she passed away, I was praying that she would make it, we'd get to the vet and the vet would be able to take care of her and she wouldn't die. And I, like, while we were driving, I remember saying to my parents, like, I think Heavenly Father's gonna answer my prayers, and I think she's gonna be okay.

Lexi McDonald [00:22:21] And she wasn't. And after that, I really started to get in my head thinking the reason that she'd passed away was because I wasn't keeping up with my grades and I wasn't keeping up with school the way I should. I wasn't keeping up with church the way I should because I had started to pick up swearing from some of my friends at school or telling inappropriate jokes, things like that. That, you know, it's really not a big deal. But at the time, I felt horrible about it, and I really thought that God was punishing me by taking my horse away, because that was the, you know, most important thing in my life at the time.

Lexi McDonald [00:22:58] And so from that point, I started getting really depressed and feeling really bad about Myself and I started self harming and you know, I was still active in the church during all of that. I was about 15 and you know, I, I was still trying, but my, my grades were suffering real bad for probably about a year before I ended up transferring out of that school.

Lexi McDonald [00:23:33] And I think I ended up kind of like. I mean, I didn't really do the horseback riding thing so much anymore. And I was just, I was sad. And it's, it's weird looking back on it because I remember being, you know, trying to appear still, like everything was fine. I would still go to church every Sunday and you know, I was really actively like doing musical numbers and sacrament meeting and so I would play the piano and sacrament.

Lexi McDonald [00:24:04] I did both singing and playing the piano and sacrament meeting a lot. And it always made me feel good because people would talk about like, you know, oh, like you. I really felt the spirit when you played and things like that. It made me feel good.

Lexi McDonald [00:24:17] And I went through a lot of times where I would. There was one year in high school where I made like a New Year's resolution to bear my testimony every fast Sunday. And so I was doing that and trying to be like really spiritual and all of this stuff. And I was really depressed, really sad inside. But a lot of the people in our ward were like, really impressed with me and would talk about like how proud they were of me. A lot of the older people would say things like, you know, I'm just like really impressed with all of the stuff that you're doing, like, it's so amazing, blah, blah, blah.

Lexi McDonald [00:24:52] And so I would take that praise and stuff and I would try to feel good about myself. But inside I was so sad because I thought that I was a shitty person. And I thought that, you know, all of my problems that I had were caused because I wasn't good enough and I wasn't keeping up on everything like I should.

Lexi McDonald [00:25:10] So high school was a pretty dark time for me. But I. It didn't seem like it on the outside. I feel like for most people they would have looked and thought like, oh, wow, like what a great kid. You know, she's doing great. But I was having a hard time.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] I'm so sorry. What was your internal spiritual life like in terms of scripture for me, I remember praying, trying to get answers, trying to understand what's the Holy Ghost, what's my emotion? How do I tell the difference? Is Heavenly Father there? Does he answer prayers? If he does, how do I know? How do I know it's not coincidence? Can I Find out that the church is true. Like, that whole. That was a big thing in my teen years. What was your spiritual, internal kind of spiritual life like?

Lexi McDonald [00:25:53] I feel like I. I really, really believe the church was true. Like I said, that was never like, this is a belief system for me. It was just how it was. And so I didn't really struggle with wondering, like, you know, is the church true? It was more just like trying to do everything right so that I could keep in contact with the spirit. And there were a lot of times

John Dehlin [00:26:17] growing up where positive emotion. Right, right, right.

Lexi McDonald [00:26:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Because this is the Spirit in Mormonism is equated with positive emotion. And then what's equated with negative emotion?

Lexi McDonald [00:26:27] Right. Satan. And I was. I was told that directly, though. So there would be times where I was, like, really struggling, and I would just, you know, have a breakdown at home and be sobbing my eyes out and hating myself and just miserable. And my mom would sit there with me and she would talk about how negative emotions come from Satan, and she would describe how in the scriptures, oh, you know, hell is described as the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. And it's something we do to ourselves. And I think that's what's happening right now, which, as a teenager going through it, being so depressed at the time, that's.

Lexi McDonald [00:27:05] So I was like, oh, okay. So what you're telling me is I am causing this to happen because I'm not doing good enough, and now Satan is controlling me. And so, you know, that would make me feel so much worse in the moment because I felt like it's my fault that I'm depressed. And I didn't even know, like, that I had depression. I just knew that I was not okay and that I was struggling and I hated myself.

Lexi McDonald [00:27:30] And I would try, you know, I had a lot of times as a kid where I would pray about something and it would be resolved. Like, I can't find my keys. And I prayed, and then I found them. And so, you know, then you equate praying to finding the keys. I had a lot of experiences like that where, you know, my mom lost some money one time, and she asked me to pray about it, and I did. And I told her to go look in a certain place and it was there. And so she would be like, you are so great. You're so spiritual, you know, and so then I would think, hmm, like, yes, I am.

Lexi McDonald [00:27:58] You know, when in reality I had just thought, that's the last place you had the money, so you should go. There, you know, so it was kind of like a. I really believed I did. But looking back on it, I can see like, you know, that it wasn't what I thought it was at the time.

Lexi McDonald [00:28:21] And I, I remember being in seminary and having one of our seminary teachers let us just sort of ask questions for a whole class period once. And so we got really into like deep doctrine of like, what happens after you die and if you go to the celestial kingdom and you can become a God. So people were asking a lot of questions about that because, you know, as kids we're all, you know, on the edge of our seats to our seminary teacher. Like, well, how does that work? Well, like, how do you, how do you have your own planet and you know, are God of something, but also you're with your family forever, so are they there with you or do you have your own?

Lexi McDonald [00:28:56] Or like, where do you go? Or, you know, it all kind of falls apart. Right? Any follow up questions? So you're sitting there like, like, how does that all work? And I don't. Like, all I remember the seminary teacher doing when he didn't know anymore. He would just be like, well, we, we don't have all the answers yet. You know, we'll find out in the next life and stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:29:16] But it weirdly didn't really bother me that much. Like it kind of did that we couldn't just know things. But I also just accepted it and just went along with it. Kind of the same thing with. I know a lot of people struggle when they learn about the church's polygamy or when they learn about how the church didn't let black people have the priesthood until the 1970s. And things like that can really weigh on people. And for me it sort of did. But I really had an kind of easy time just looking past it and accepting it because I knew the church was true. So all that other stuff didn't really matter because the church is true in the end. That's kind of where I was in that high school age.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] Love it. Okay. I usually try and ask this question with everyone, but we're going to model something that. I got some good feedback from a listener about this idea of consent that if I'm just asking you sensitive questions as a man particularly, how is that any different from like a bishop asking someone sensitive questions alone? So I got this idea from a listener and from Margi that there always needs to be kind of a, we need to model consent. So I'm gonna. I always ask about sexual shame in my interviews only because not for any period or personal gratification reasons, but only because I. I really believe that sexual shame is sort of core to the model of how the church relates to its youth and actually sometimes wields undue influence over its youth.

Sexual Shame and Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:30:48] So that's a long way of just saying, how do you feel about talking about that sort of stuff? And do you kind of. What would you like to offer in terms of consent or not around talking about that stuff?

Lexi McDonald [00:31:00] Yeah, I want to talk about it. I want to get into the nitty gritty and talk about it, because I feel like it did have a pretty big effect on me as a kid and growing up. So, yeah, let's get into it.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Okay, so was sexual shame at all a part of your, let's just say, teenage years prior to kind of college? And if so, you know, thoughts, behavior, whatever, and if so, how.

Lexi McDonald [00:31:25] Yeah, absolutely. The weird thing is, and I feel like this isn't unique to me, I feel like a lot of Mormons kind of have this problem where their parents don't really talk to them that much about their body and things like that. And so once they are, you know, starting to become a little bit older and exploring their own body and exploring sexuality, they don't know what things are. So, you know, you touch yourself in a certain way and it feels good. You don't really know what that is. And then you go to church and they give you lessons about chastity and, you know, not.

Lexi McDonald [00:32:03] Not breaking the law of chastity, but they don't, like, at least for in my ward. And it seemed like they didn't really want to go into details about what all that meant, but they would throw the word chastity around a lot. And morality.

Lexi McDonald [00:32:15] I never heard the word masturbation till I had already masturbated. And I was probably in my teen years by that point before anybody actually said that word out loud. And so even going to, like a bishop's interview for the first time when you're like 12 to get your temple recommend and go do baptisms for the dead, and they say, like, are you keeping the law of chastity?

Lexi McDonald [00:32:40] I was like, yeah, I think so. Like, I'm not really 100% sure. I don't know what all of the words mean, you know, but it ended up being the kind of thing where it just. It didn't really occur to me too much until I started getting a little bit older. I think I had my first kiss when I was like, 14 at a youth conference, obviously. And I.

Lexi McDonald [00:33:05] I Remember talking to my mom about it and her trying to sort of have a conversation with me about, like, being pure and not going too far, but not really completely understanding what she meant. And I really feel like a lot of my sexual education and things like that ended up coming just from my peers at school because my parents didn't go into depth with me on what was expected. But I knew from what the church expected of me and that it was important to be very pure and not to, you know, touch.

Lexi McDonald [00:33:42] But it's weird to talk about because I really didn't understand all of the terminology that they used because they didn't, like, come out right and just talk about it. So, you know, I didn't. I didn't get into too much trouble as a kid, and I didn't, you know, go too far or do, like, bad things with, you know, other people.

Lexi McDonald [00:34:06] But once I graduated, I graduated when I was 17. I was one of the youngest kids in my class. Once I graduated and had a job and was kind of thrust out into the world with older people, most of my friends were older than I was, with a really poor sexual education and really no words about consent, but a lot of fear of doing things like being alone with a guy. Because the church has so many.

Lexi McDonald [00:34:40] So many talks and so many lessons with the young women about never being alone with a guy. You need to go on group dates, never be in a room alone with a guy. But it was never because you might get hurt. It was always because it could lead to you sinning.

Lexi McDonald [00:35:01] And so, you know, I had this thought in mind of, you know, well, that's just something the church teaches because they, you know, they don't want you to kiss and stuff. But when I was 17.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Wait, really quick. One quick question. Was dress and modesty an important part of, you know, that whole equation for you growing up?

Lexi McDonald [00:35:22] Oh, God. Yeah, I almost. Yeah, well, go ahead. Let's go ahead and talk about that. Because that was a whole thing. My family was very, very into the modesty. And I feel like for some Mormons, their parents are less strict about it when they're younger. And, you know, it's like, oh, you know, you're 10 years old, tank tops are fine. That kind of thing. My family was not like that. We. It was from as young as I can remember, it was never okay to show your shoulders. All my shorts had to go to my knees.

Lexi McDonald [00:35:47] And it was the kind of thing that, like, if I didn't follow that, my mom would get so mad. And I don't this is, like, early 2000s. It was like, layering was a huge thing. And so you would have a tank top and then, like, maybe a second tank top, and then you'd have, like, a polo shirt or whatever. And then, you know, so it was like layer, layer, layer. So I had tank tops, but obviously you would never wear the tank top just as itself, you know, And I never did that.

Carah Burrell [00:36:14] Going on Facebook, deleting all of the pictures of me. Who did that? Y' all did that.

Lexi McDonald [00:36:19] I remember. I remember making a MySpace because my older brother had one and he didn't live at home, so I wanted to stay in contact with him. And I took a MySpace photo where I was wearing a tank top, and my mom found it and she cried because she was like, I just can't believe that you would post this picture online where anybody can see it where you're showing your shoulders. And I laugh looking back on it, because it's. At the time, like, she was so upset, and I was, like, mortified. It was a tank top. I was like, 15. I was wearing tank top. And she cried.

Carah Burrell [00:36:56] And, like, the connotation in her mind as a very Mormon woman is like, what's next?

Lexi McDonald [00:37:02] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:37:03] Yeah, go through all your stuff.

Lexi McDonald [00:37:05] She was over here like, oh, no, my daughter's gonna be a whore.

Carah Burrell [00:37:08] People don't understand how literally the worst things go through our Mormon mom's minds when we show our shoulders. Yeah, it's wild.

Lexi McDonald [00:37:15] There was also a time where I had, like, a pair of swim shorts that I decided I was just going to wear as regular shorts, and they were probably, like, mid thigh. And I wore them one time on a Sunday because I was at home relaxing, and my brother, in front of my whole family was like, don't you think those shorts are a little short for the Sabbath? And I remember being, again, like, mortified because they were like, he was calling me out in front of everybody, and everybody just kind of stared at me, like, yeah, but if you're in any

Carah Burrell [00:37:44] proximity to swimming or water, they're fine.

Lexi McDonald [00:37:48] Yeah, totally. Of course. And I, you know, I. I tried to be really modest when we were swimming. That's why I had shorts to wear over my swimsuit. It was dumb.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] But connect the dots for those who don't really understand. What does that. What does that communicate to a Mormon girl when that level of intensity around showing body parts, what are the. All the messages and burdens and toxic messages does that sort of communicate?

Lexi McDonald [00:38:16] Well, and it's more than just the, like, the implication they would actually have Lessons and talk to us about how if you show too much of your body, you're going to be a temptation to men. And I remember having like the bishop would come and speak to the young women about how you need to be modest when you come to church because sometimes girls would layer like a dress that was a little bit too short. He would come and have a whole lesson for an hour about how if you are dressing provocatively, you are going to attract, you're going to attract sin, basically. Like you are becoming a sex object for men. And that's bad on your part for dressing that way.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Because then what will happen?

Lexi McDonald [00:39:03] Because. Because then the men are going to have sinful thoughts and that's totally your fault.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] What else might happen?

Lexi McDonald [00:39:12] Well, they might, it might go farther.

Carah Burrell [00:39:16] Can I just say that I, as a 15 year old, I thought that was a totally normal thing. It's not until I went outside of the church till I realized that's not a normal thing. And I told my sister who was in college, she was wearing some. She wasn't Mormon anymore and she was wearing a provocative outfit in air quotes. Yeah, in front of me. And I was 15. And I said to her, you can't wear that because then men will get turned on. And she's like. And so. And I didn't have a good answer. She's like, then they'll get turned on. And I didn't have a good answer. I was like. And I'm not responsible for that. Oh, I get that now. Okay.

Lexi McDonald [00:39:48] Yeah, see and I. We never heard that. It was always that it was your fault if a man has those thoughts. And like I mentioned before, they didn't put a lot of emphasis or any at all that I can remember on consent or what was okay or what was expected. And another thing that I've noticed is looking back on my life growing up, I heard from my mom and from church leaders and the young women's all the time about how girls are, they mature faster than boys. And so it was expected of us to, you know, be better than the men and to sort of be responsible for them because they didn't mature as fast and the boys are like two or three years behind you.

Lexi McDonald [00:40:35] But I never heard that the boys should look up to the girls for our maturity. I only heard about how girls need to be good and to, you know, be better. They just expected more because we are more mature and we don't expect as much of the boys. And that always bothered me. And I feel like that kind of goes hand in Hand with them expecting the girls to be responsible for what the boys were thinking and doing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Like, isn't there this idea that if a boy messes up, that somehow maybe it was the girl that didn't dress right or didn't behave right that led to the boy messing up?

Lexi McDonald [00:41:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Am I making that up or.

Lexi McDonald [00:41:13] No. They teach that.

Carah Burrell [00:41:14] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [00:41:14] I mean, did you learn. I was taught that in church was you. The way you dress and the way you act around young men. If you are acting or dressing provocatively and they have sexual thoughts, that is your fault.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Yeah. Or act on it.

Lexi McDonald [00:41:31] I mean, they directly said that.

Carah Burrell [00:41:32] Yeah. And it makes you feel really weird if you are, like, a sexual beast. It's not the word I wanted, but a being. And you're like, you're. You're very much kind of taught that, like, you're, like she said, responsible for the men's thoughts, and you're like, well, what if, like, I'm in a relationship with a boy and he's completely, like, coldfish or whatever, and I'm the more sexual one? Is there something wrong with me? Because that's not the. That's not the dynamic I was ever taught about. And you just. Yeah. You get into your head a lot, I think, as a Mormon teen, thinking, what's wrong with me at all times.

Lexi McDonald [00:42:04] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] And not to make this about the men, but also, what type of message does that send to a boy or a young man that, like, they're the fragile one, where, if. If some. If a girl shows her shoulder or her knee, then of course he's going to not be able to control himself.

Lexi McDonald [00:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] It takes. I don't know if this is true, but it would seem like it would take some of the responsibility off the boy and make him feel like he's weak or. And man, if. If. If a girl doesn't behave quite right, then it's kind of on her a little bit for whatever happens next. Yeah, I think that's a thing. I think that's a thing.

Lexi McDonald [00:42:42] Yeah, I think you're right.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] I mean, I think. I don't think it was good for me to always feel like, oh, my gosh, if I see the wrong thing, then I might do something wrong. How about, like. No. How about young men? You're gonna have thoughts, you're gonna have urges, you're gonna see things, and you just ride that out and you learn that you can manage your behavior and you can still act like a responsible, healthy human being, even if you see something that isn't you. Know, see a little skin or see a shoulder or even see boobs or whatever. You can. Behaviors different from thoughts and feelings, and you can develop into a mature person that beh. As a healthy person should.

Carah Burrell [00:43:18] Yeah, that's huge. That's not taught that there are healthy ways to manage these raging hormones as a teenager. And speaking of, like, the way that boys are kind of taught, like my husband, I had a. I didn't have as bad of a time in the church around this issue as my husband did. He was told, if you do get turned on, you are going to hell. Like she was saying about the way that your interaction with this God, with this deity is somebody who is going to take your family away from you

John Dehlin [00:43:46] and drop a picture on your head.

Carah Burrell [00:43:47] Yeah, drop a picture on your head if you're not perfect. So he thought if he got turned on at all, that he was gonna be taken to hell. So he. He had a lot more. I think men can have even that really painful scrupulosity in other ways that they're just not. Like you're saying, that's just not a healthy way to manage that.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] And then. And then we all know through psychology that the more you try not to have a thought, the more you're going to have it. And the bigger you. Bigger deal you make, the consequences of having a thought, the more you're going to have that thought. It'd be like sticking a gun to someone's head and saying, don't think of a pink elephant. Well, they're going to think about a pink elephant the whole time, because that's the way the brain works. So it's just this toxic formula that creates all the behaviors the church says they don't want. I think. Anyway, back to you, Lexi.

Early Adulthood, Marriage, and Difficult Relationships

Lexi McDonald [00:44:33] Yeah. So kind of starting from that point in that mindset, I graduated when I was 17, and most of my friends were older. I worked at a camera shop. And a lot of the people that I met through work became the people I kind of hung out with. And most of them were quite a bit older than me because I was 17. And so I did this little photo shoot with some of my friends and ended up meeting some older people. I met a guy who was 24 at the time, and I was 17, but I had graduated high school, so I was feeling very sure of myself and very mature. And this guy was an rm and he showed a lot of interest in me. And so, you know, being the very.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] RMs are safe, right? RMs are safe return RM for those who don't know. RM is returned missionary.

Lexi McDonald [00:45:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] Someone who served a Mormon mission.

Lexi McDonald [00:45:32] Yep. And he had, you know, he'd served his full two years and to me that's, you know, I'm like, that's a stand up guy. And I'm a mature 17 year old girl. And so he asked me out and we went on like one or two dates. He met my parents, he came over to our house and had like a Sunday dinner with my family.

Lexi McDonald [00:45:58] And they were aware of how old he was, but again, he was an rm and when he came over for dinner with our family, I remember him specifically, really playing up the whole mission thing. He talked about it a lot, you know, told all of his mission stories to my parents and really, you know, was just showing off. I'm a stand up guy, I'm a Mormon, I served a mission and you know, now I'm going to college and whatever.

Lexi McDonald [00:46:27] And so we dated for a little while and there was one night where we were supposed to go out and I got to his apartment and there was nobody else there. And he had said that he wanted to show me something in his room.

Lexi McDonald [00:46:45] And I remember having the thought of like, you know, my parents, my mom, the church has always said never be alone with a guy because it could lead to sinful things. And at the time I remember being like, well, you know, I'm 17, like I've graduated high school and you know, it's, it's time for. And this is weird too because I'm like, I was 17 years old. But the church really pushes that you should be actively looking for a spouse and dating to marry, not just dating for fun. And so even though I was that young, I was dating to find somebody to marry. And so I figured, you know, it's gonna be fine.

Lexi McDonald [00:47:29] You know, he's, he's an RM and you know, he's not gonna do anything inappropriate and you know, maybe we'll kiss and it's, it's not a big deal. It's really not a big deal. He took me back to his room and I don't really want to go into a lot of detail, but he ended up assaulting me.

Lexi McDonald [00:47:51] And I very, very much blamed myself for that because I knew and I'd had the thought while I was there that I shouldn't be alone with him and I should leave. And I didn't. It's weird looking back on, I didn't honestly think of it as an assault.

Lexi McDonald [00:48:13] I thought that I had sinned by just being there and not leaving. When I had the Chance to. And I really, It really, really broke me. I feel like, you know, I hadn't, I wasn't super great at the time. You know, I was already struggling with a lot of depression and anxiety and I blamed myself for what happened. Thought that I was a horrible sinner, thought that no guy would ever want to marry me now because I was like used, damaged goods. I wasn't here anymore.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] Do you have those object lessons growing

Lexi McDonald [00:48:58] up tell us they had a lot of like crumpled up dollar bill and then ripped dollar bill and then, you know, wet dollar bill, that kind of a thing. Lessons where it was like, well, do you still want the dollar after I do this, this, this, this and this until the point where it's, you know, not a usable dollar anymore.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] And so comparing that to the worth

Lexi McDonald [00:49:22] of a woman if she's pure or not, if she's, you know, kept the law of chastity. And even though, you know, I can look back on it and realize like, I, I didn't do anything wrong and it wasn't my fault. But back then it was really hard for me to accept that. I thought it was all my fault and that I was a sinner now.

Lexi McDonald [00:49:45] And I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell a single soul because I thought, you know, if I tell my parents, they're going to have me tell the bishop and if I tell the bishop, I'm, he, he's going to think I'm unworthy and I'm not going to be able to go to the temple. And if I don't go to the temple, you know, I don't get married in the temple, then I won't be able to get to heaven. I won't be with my family anymore.

Lexi McDonald [00:50:06] So I didn't tell anybody. And that rm, you know, after I stopped talking to him and cut off contact, he ended up stalking me for several months. Even up to a year later, he was still following me and seeing what I was up to on social media.

Lexi McDonald [00:50:27] And he would send like crude messages and things like that up until, you know, it was, I got married over a year later and before the wedding he was still sending messages. I'm not sure what his goal was,

Carah Burrell [00:50:44] but did his personality just flip?

Lexi McDonald [00:50:48] Yeah, he, you know, he'd come across as, you know, to me as a 17 year old, like, very like, wow, mature and such a good guy and so funny and stuff. And after that, he really, after that happened, just from the few like conversations we had afterward, he seemed like an extremely manipulative, controlling kind of A scary person. And I definitely can see that now. You know, especially hindsight 20 20, looking back and seeing the way that, you know, he treated me and the way that he acted after I told him that I never wanted to see him again, and the way he continued to still try to get into contact with me even though we'd known each other for.

Carah Burrell [00:51:35] We.

Lexi McDonald [00:51:36] I mean, we only dated for like three weeks. And then months and months go by and he's still following what I'm doing. Very creepy person.

Carah Burrell [00:51:48] Do you have any idea if he was ever disciplined in church or do you have any idea what happened to him after that?

Lexi McDonald [00:51:53] I have no idea. I've never. I never. I don't want to know. I don't ever want to think about it again. But yeah, he.

Consent, Boundaries, and the Temple Experience

John Dehlin [00:52:01] So can I just say something really quick?

Lexi McDonald [00:52:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] A couple quick things. I realized several years ago after one or two of my children were sexually assaulted, that one thing you never get as a Mormon teen growing up is lessons about consent and assault. Why? Like why? Of all the time we're spending in seminary and an institute at byu, curriculum, Sunday school, why are there never lessons about consent and. Or assault?

Lexi McDonald [00:52:31] Especially when there's so many about chastity. Yeah, they really push that. I mean, over the pulpit I had when I was like 16 or 17, I had to give a talk in church as one of those youth talks about chastity.

Carah Burrell [00:52:44] It's probably the same reason that they don't teach anything but abstinence. Because if you're talking about condoms, if you're talking about anything, that means that you've already opened up the discussion that this is a possibility where our kids are so good, they would never do this. Our Mormon youths would never do that.

Lexi McDonald [00:52:57] You know, problem? Well, they make, they teach it as though if you never put yourself in that situation, if you don't wear immodest clothes, if you don't go places alone, if you aren't with the opposite sex alone, then you'll never have to be in a position to say yes or no because you're just not going to go there.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] Well, the only other thing is that, you know, if I'm thinking as a dad, like, what do I want if my child is assaulted? I want them to be able to come tell me. But if our rhetoric around the dollar bills and the licked cupcakes and the passed around, you know, snickers bar and all those super awful object lessons that, that raise the stakes so high, you know, culminating in what? The Book of Mormon verse that says that Sexual transgression is next to murder, like amping up the stakes and all that makes it so. They're teaching our young kids to lie. They're teaching our boys to lie or girls to lie.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] And you needed support more than any other time in your life up to that point. Heck, it's a sexual assault, and yet you want to hide it and cover it up and because you're afraid of what everyone's going to think of you if you tell them. And that's the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] That's the opposite outcome that I would imagine anyone wants. They want you to be getting a trauma specialist, you to get the mental health support. You need the boy to learn lessons, to have consequences and to be educated. And it's just all this learning opportunity and healing opportunity that all just never happens. And then you're just living for years with trauma. And this boy is, I got away with something. Maybe I can do that again.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] It's just so messed up. And that's why we always come to this. It's not because I'm obsessed about all this stuff. It's because it's so fundamental to, to our, our experiences as Mormon teens and adults. I think.

Lexi McDonald [00:54:44] Yeah, yeah. I like what you said about, I mean, the way it should have happened is that, you know, I got help and he had some sort of consequences or, you know, because I feel like for as old as he was and as young as I was, he was targeting somebody that was a lot younger on purpose so that he could take advantage of them. And since he got away with it, maybe he went on to do it again, who knows?

John Dehlin [00:55:10] And also that if, maybe if you'd both been educated about this, it would have never happened to begin with. Maybe.

Carah Burrell [00:55:14] Yeah. I think education in and out of religion as well, I think we can make this broader than just Mormonism is. Sexuality is its whole other universe. It's whole other world. And from the time you're a child and you're introduced to sexuality, you don't even know what it is until it's too late. Sometimes you don't know what boundaries should be in place. And as somebody who's just. As a kid, you're used to getting in trouble all the time. Why wouldn't you get in trouble for experimenting in this whole new universe? You don't know what your fault and what's not your fault. So of course it's super difficult to take it to an adult and try to get it to stop or try to get some help.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] So, yeah, and I just want to say, I'M so, so sorry that happened.

Carah Burrell [00:55:52] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] So, so sorry.

Lexi McDonald [00:55:54] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [00:55:57] So from there, when I. When that all happened, I was right about to turn 18. So I turned 18, like, right around that time, and I spent the next year dating other guys in kind of unhealthy relationships, because at that point, like I said, I kind of felt like I was just going to take whoever came along because I didn't think that

John Dehlin [00:56:19] damaged goods in your mind, which is so awful.

Lexi McDonald [00:56:21] Yeah. And so I spent, you know, I spent some probably like six months in a really unhealthy, immature, crappy relationship that was a whole, you know, whole wasted six months, but dated, you know, a few other guys. And after I. After I got out of that kind of crappy relationship, things started to. To get better.

Lexi McDonald [00:56:44] I wasn't, you know, I was still going to church during that time, but. And I still definitely believed, but I tried to not spend a lot of time there. And part of that was because I just had a lot of guilt feeling like I'm not worthy to be here.

Lexi McDonald [00:56:58] Didn't want to talk to the bishop about how I wasn't worthy to take the sacrament and whatever. So I just tried to not come to church when I couldn't. And then probably, almost, let's see, like, eight months, eight to ten months after all of that had happened, went through a few different relationships, dated some new guys, and then I met my husband, and I felt like I'd finally found somebody that, you know, I actually really loved instead of just was with because I felt crappy about myself.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Was he an rm?

Lexi McDonald [00:57:33] Yeah, he was okay. And, you know, fell in love with him super quick. Kind of the classic Mormon love story where you meet and fall in love and get engaged super, super quick. So. Well, on our second date, he said, when we get married. Ooh. So from the very beginning, we were like 100%. But we. I think we got engaged, probably, like, actually got a ring and were engaged like, four months after we met, and then we were married within, like, six months of meeting. Had a temple marriage and all that.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Do you want to speak about the temple, your temple experience at all?

Lexi McDonald [00:58:15] I could talk about it a little bit. It was nothing super special because I feel like it's just the same story that everybody has where you go through and you're shocked and amazed because, you know, and obviously my husband, being an rm, he had been through the temple before. I went through the temple two or three days before our wedding. Weirded out by it. I do remember specifically, like, having thought we all go sit down and we're all wearing these clothes and I had some grandparents and stuff with me. I remember as we start changing the clothes and learning the handshakes and stuff, and looking around and having for the first time in my life the very explicit thought, it feels like I'm in a cult. And then immediately also being like, oh God, do not smite me. I'm so sorry for thinking that, you

Carah Burrell [00:59:03] know, had you been prepared, had like any idea about the clothes or the rituals.

Lexi McDonald [00:59:10] I'm pretty sure we did a temple prep class which was not helpful. Yeah, no, had no clue. It didn't help me at all. So yeah, it was weird. And I remember going through the whole thing kind of wide eyed, like, what this? And why did nobody tell me about this? We go, you know, get through the whole ceremony, go through the veil and sitting in the celestial room with my family all around looking at me expectantly like, so how you doing? You know, and me just being like, oh, it was great. So great. It was great inside being like, this is really, really weird and I didn't

Carah Burrell [00:59:45] really want to come back that you liked. No, you grew to like, I, I know it's really hard when you're like, this is what I have to do every day. I gotta find something I like genuinely like.

Lexi McDonald [00:59:58] It was really long and boring and the things that weren't boring were just shocking. Like I was so just totally thrown through a loop and I thought that I would be learning like some like big secret or like something that would really enhance my testimony and it would be like, wow, yes, this is, you know, so amazing. And it, it was really just like, you know, we watched the movie and I was like, we already know this. Like, this is something I've known for since I was a little kid about the whole garden story. Like all I'm learning is kind of some handshakes and stuff in between and I didn't get any like new knowledge that I thought that I kind of would going through.

Lexi McDonald [01:00:36] So it was not great. But it was not, it wasn't like a testimony changer. Like I was still like, well, didn't love that. But the church is still true, so it's fine. We got married in the temple like three days later and you know, wasn't loving the way we were dressed and wasn't loving the lack of like a regular ceremony. I do remember being sad that there wasn't the whole like dad walks you down the high aisle thing and that there wasn't like a real ring ceremony and oh, you don't get to have like flower girls.

Lexi McDonald [01:01:12] It wasn't the wedding that little girls picture when they're super excited to grow up and get married. But again, not a testimony changer. It was just like, well, that's unfortunate, but everybody has their weird culture.

John Dehlin [01:01:27] How'd you like garments?

Carah Burrell [01:01:28] What?

John Dehlin [01:01:28] How'd you like garments?

Lexi McDonald [01:01:29] Oh, I hated the garments. I really hated the garments. I already was super self conscious about my body and the way I looked and just thinking that I was not like a pretty person. And then I put on the garments and was like, oh, no, this is how my husband sees me. Like, if I take off my clothes, this is what he's gonna see underneath is these garments. Yeah. I was not a fan and I felt not only like, just, you know, like I didn't look good. I just felt uncomfortable. They were so. They were hot and they were. Well, mine were the, like the, you know, the Karenessa ones that are like Spandexy.

Carah Burrell [01:02:07] Hated those.

Lexi McDonald [01:02:08] Yeah, they were so. They were really tight and form fitting and just like constricting. And I had a whole closet full of modest clothing that just didn't quite work with the garment. So, you know, I'd have like a sweater that had kind of a deep V or it went out to here, but the garments came into here. And so I had probably like a third of my closet that to any regular person would be like, that's modest. There's nothing wrong with that. But it didn't work with the garment, so I had to throw it away.

Carah Burrell [01:02:38] Did you ever consider, were you at all the type of Mormon girl who would make exceptions?

Lexi McDonald [01:02:44] Let's say I did eventually. Like, well, like the first time I had my period with garments being like, well, I can't wear them because I don't want to. You know, what if. Let them get blood on them or something? So I didn't wear them for I

Carah Burrell [01:02:57] rationalized that I'm like, if God did this to me, I'm wearing normal underwear for a couple days.

Lexi McDonald [01:03:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] So you're not wear your bottom.

Lexi McDonald [01:03:03] Oh, I wouldn't wear any of it because I thought it was sinful to only wear half. Like, I thought that was worse than not wearing at all.

Carah Burrell [01:03:08] It did feel weird. Yeah. So lots of women will wear underwear that could have a pad fold into it underneath Mormon underwear. And if that is not weird, I don't know what is.

Lexi McDonald [01:03:18] Yeah, so it was like underwear on underwear. And yeah, I was like, I would. So I think it went for a few months, like wearing garments and then had that, you know, like, well, I'm not gonna wear them like when I'm on my period. And then, you know, if I wasn't wearing them on my period, then I was like, I just don't want to wear them at all. And so, and I gained a little bit of weight after I got married and, you know, got pregnant and stuff. And so the ones I had didn't fit. And then it was like, well, I'm not going to wear them if they don't fit.

Lexi McDonald [01:03:43] And then I didn't buy new ones. You know, Slippery slope. Yeah. And I do remember, like my in laws specifically like noticing one day that I wasn't wearing them and asking about it and thinking to myself, this is like so inappropriate that you feel like it's okay to ask me about my underwear, but okay, and told them like, oh, I'm on my period. I don't remember I'm on my period. But yeah, I, that's kind of how it went for me.

Carah Burrell [01:04:10] Where.

Lexi McDonald [01:04:10] And then I would go through periods where I would feel really bad about it and I'd wear them again. But then I would always think in my head, like, if God, like really loves me the way that he says he does, he understands how I feel when I wear them, and if he understands how I feel when I wear them, he wouldn't want me to go through that. And so I'd take them off and

John Dehlin [01:04:32] tell our non Mormon listeners why garments were not great for you, why you

Lexi McDonald [01:04:36] didn't like for me. They were really uncomfortable. They made me feel bad about my body and they made me like, just the, the tightness and the way that they fit made me sweaty. It made me uncomfortable. It made me just like not able to settle. Like, I would sit and just think about, like, oh, like, oh, uncomfortable, uncomfortable. And even if I tried to like wear them consistently, it never felt like it got any better. They were just still uncomfortable to me. And I also, I'm not going to lie, I really did dislike how there were so many clothes that would be modest, but they just showed like a little sliver of garment and you know, that's it. You can't wear it.

Carah Burrell [01:05:16] And if you can gain the system. Like, I had friends who are like, all you got to do is buy extra small and they would wear shorts that are as short as I'm wearing right now.

Lexi McDonald [01:05:24] And I was like, you're wearing garments under that?

Carah Burrell [01:05:26] What, like all your knees showing? And I'm like, what are these rules? This doesn't make any sense. Like, as long as I'm wearing them.

Lexi McDonald [01:05:32] I can show as much leg as I want. Yeah. And I didn't even think of that at the time, but, yeah, I've definitely noticed that there's some family members I have that do that where, you know, or they'll have, like, baggy ones that ride up on their leg, and so they can wear shorter shorts because their garments have ridden up all the way to their butt cheek, you know?

Carah Burrell [01:05:49] Yeah. And I'm like, if you study the New Testament and the way the Pharisees, you know, made fun of each other for not having their little, like, you know, those boxes that they'd wear on their heads and all the different things that Jesus preached against. And here we are as Mormons, like, always garment checking how people are wearing them and, like, being, like, jealous that people thought of better ways to overcome, like, their different ways of wearing things. Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:06:14] yeah. Mormons are. I mean, non Mormons are like, why is it that everyone's so obsessed with this underwear? And how is it that everybody's comfortable, like, getting into that business?

Lexi McDonald [01:06:26] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:06:27] Woman to woman, I can't wait till we finally get to the part where you leave the church and we can talk about how great it feels to not wear them.

Lexi McDonald [01:06:33] We'll see.

Perfectionism and Strains Within Marriage

John Dehlin [01:06:35] Okay.

Lexi McDonald [01:06:36] All right. So, yeah, got married, and my husband and I, we loved each other so much. And it was the kind of thing where at first everything's great, you know, we're in a newlywed phase. But I still had a lot of leftover anxiety and depression from everything that I'd gone through, my teenage years, and then after the assault and stuff.

Lexi McDonald [01:06:59] So, you know, it was. We love each other, but we struggled a lot with a lot of things. And at the time, I couldn't really understand why. Looking back, I can see that a lot of it, A lot of our problems came from my anxiety, my depression, and my.

Lexi McDonald [01:07:16] My perfectionism within the church because I wanted my husband to keep these really impossibly high standards, you know, the way I would. And so I went through a phase earlier in our marriage where I would literally, like, go through conference talks, go on the church website, like, search a topic, read conference talks about that, and, like, write down all different quotes about that thing and then, you know, relate it back to our life and how we had to try to be perfect in this way. So, like, you know, if he was listening to music that was, you know, had any bad messages or if it had a swear word or anything, I would find, oh, like, here's all these conference talks talking about how if you listen to bad music, xyz and it was like, you know, cherry picking the, like all of these things, like to just find all of the things that relate back to it and then tell him that.

Lexi McDonald [01:08:10] And he would feel really guilty, but not want to, you know, stop doing what he liked or stop watching movies that he liked or stop listening to music that he liked because of all this stuff. But I was so.

Lexi McDonald [01:08:21] I was really pushy and I wanted him to live up to these standards and do everything that the church wanted. And so for the first few years of our marriage, it was really hard for us to be happy and on the same page because he was just trying to live life and I was trying to control every aspect of life and make it fit the Mormon mold perfectly.

Lexi McDonald [01:08:46] And I feel really bad about that in hindsight, you know, I feel like I was a really controlling, controlling person trying to have everything be perfect. But at the same time, you know, I. I felt like I was doing the right thing because I was following the prophet's words exactly.

Lexi McDonald [01:09:07] And that was, you know, how you get to heaven is being the perfect person and doing everything the prophet says, because the prophet speaks for God. So I'm not just being, like, rude. I'm doing what God wants us to do. And so we definitely, we struggled with that. We ended up having four kids in three years and 10 months.

John Dehlin [01:09:30] Wow. Can I ask you about that real quick?

Lexi McDonald [01:09:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] So on the one hand, like, you know, my mom's a stay at home mom, Margi's a stay at home mom. She now works part time, but, like, I'm super stay at home mom affirming or stay at home dad affirming. And I think part of one of the ways the church can really harm people is by not communicating the message to women that they can get an education, that they can have a career, that they can be whatever they want to be. But instead it's like, get married super young, get married fast, and then have lots of kids super fast. Is there anything you want to say about dreams you had or, you know, or. Or was this the path you actually just genuinely wanted, or is there any way for you.

Lexi McDonald [01:10:12] When I was younger, there were other things that I wanted, but after I graduated high school and all of that other stuff went down, I kind of. I did want to just get married and have kids and have that be my thing, at least for a while. But like, in some ways I feel like it was kind of pushed that, you know, and this kind of goes into my whole obsession with, like, Reading what the prophets say and following that. Exactly. There were a lot of prophets that I read from like Ezra Taft Benson and Spencer W. Kimball that were like super pro mothers in the home, never leaving the house, never, you know, and so I would read that and think, well, that's, you know, that's the way

Carah Burrell [01:10:53] I need to be.

Lexi McDonald [01:10:53] Then. That's, that's what the prophets have said. So, you know, getting a job and leaving the home wasn't really an option for me after I read that and, you know, I kind of just settled into, well, okay, I'm gonna be a mom. And yeah, I mean it was, it was a wild ride for a few years. Having that many little kids, four kids

John Dehlin [01:11:14] in four years, that's intense.

Lexi McDonald [01:11:16] Yeah, it was crazy. I had three kids in diapers twice, had three under three twice. Yeah. And you know, I, in the middle of all of that, still trying to do the whole be a really good Mormon thing. So when I had my third baby, I remember they, they called me to be a Relief Society teacher. And so I would go put the two younger ones in nursery and then go to Relief Society, hold my sleeping baby and give a lesson and, and

Carah Burrell [01:11:54] probably very little sleep, I'm guessing.

Lexi McDonald [01:11:55] Oh yeah, yeah, very little sleep. And I'm, you know. You know, I got pregnant every time when the baby was six months old, so my body was really going through it. It was spent three years, three or four years almost pregnant the whole time. So, yeah, it was a rough time of life. And for my husband, you know, he was still trying to do everything right as well. He wanted to provide for a family the way that he was supposed to. And I still had these really high expectations for the way you need to behave and the movies that it's okay to watch and the music it's okay to listen to and the things that we should do and how you need to be a good priesthood holder and, you know, you need to fulfill your church callings.

Lexi McDonald [01:12:42] And I really feel like, like I was so intense and so high pressure and so controlling. I was that kind of Mormon. And I just probably in the last like five months went back and saw this. We had a card game where some of the characters were car. They're all cartoons, but there were some of the characters had like a low cut top that would show cleavage. I went through and like sharpied out all the cleavage.

Carah Burrell [01:13:08] Oh no you didn't.

Lexi McDonald [01:13:09] Oh yeah, I did. I made a TikTok about it. It was, oh, the cringiest thing of my life. Going back and seeing that that's how I was, though. That's how I was on everything. So we were super careful on the movies we watched. We were super careful about the music we listened to. We would go through songs on itunes and edit out the swear words of songs that we really liked but still wanted to listen to.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] So you would cut out the. Or, like, how. Just, like, an audacity.

Lexi McDonald [01:13:35] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:13:36] Yeah, I used to do that, too. I edited all of Shawshank Redemption and took out all the F words so my sister and I could watch it.

Lexi McDonald [01:13:43] Oh, that's.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] That's next level. Like, I thought I was pretty intense, but, like, that's something that. That's next level intensity.

Carah Burrell [01:13:49] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [01:13:49] Well. And I. I did it thinking, like, God would be so proud of me right now, but it was intense, and I. I can definitely look back on it and be like, wow, that girl, she was a little bit bananas. A little bit.

Carah Burrell [01:14:03] And did you do it because you felt like there's a difference in the spirit in your home when you performed that way? Because I think we have a hard time figuring out what's the spirit and what is just our own mind making us freak out over small things. And so it's like, I've always done this this way. Since I was a little kid. I've been taught that you follow this rule, and I will feel good about myself. And it's not necessarily that the spirit's there. It's that this is just how it's always been. I've just always been this intense at this level.

Lexi McDonald [01:14:28] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:14:28] And you don't know anything else. So if you stop doing it, if you stop. If you stop scribbling out the cleavage in. Would there really be a difference in the spirit in your home, or is it just your mind kind of playing games with you?

Lexi McDonald [01:14:41] Well, and the thing that I've come to realize since all of that and, you know, looking back on it, is that I was making our lives real hard. I was making my husband's life really hard, and I was creating a lot of unnecessary anxiety for both of us. And, you know, I'm really, really, really glad that I got out of that mindset before my kids had a chance to know that person, because that would have been a really, really rough house to live in as a teenager.

Carah Burrell [01:15:09] Yeah. That not only mom and dad care about these things a lot, but there's a creator up there, and he cares about all these little details.

Lexi McDonald [01:15:17] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:15:17] And that you have to inflict. It's not the right word. But, you know, give your kids that kind of deity that's always reigning over them is kind of damaging, judging them.

Lexi McDonald [01:15:27] So that, you know, that went on for a number of years, having kids going through that, still trying to be, you know, the perfect Mormons. And eventually over the years, I. Let's see. Well, let's start in like, I think around 2016, I wanted to mention I came across my first anti Mormon stuff on the Internet. And if I remember correctly, it was. Somebody had. It was on the Utah News, which I still followed even though I lived in Idaho.

First Doubts and Troubling Church Encounters

Lexi McDonald [01:16:00] Somebody had graffitied something. It was either a church building or maybe like an. Some like an overpass or something, and written like, Joseph Smith was a pedophile or something like that. And I was like, that is so not true, first of all, and just how rude. And I looked through the comments and there were so many comments from anti Mormons being, you know, like laughing at it and thinking that was so funny and good job whoever did it. Lol. And there was this one particular person that I engaged with in the comment section and he, to me at the time, in my very Mormon mind, he came across as somebody who had left the church because he'd probably been offended by something or because he was mad at God for something.

Lexi McDonald [01:16:54] And my little Mormon brain, I thought, you know, I could probably befriend this guy and help him come back. So I started messaging him online and I sent him a friend request. And I remember him messaging me back and saying, you know, I post a lot of stuff on my Facebook that you're not gonna like. And I was like, well, it's okay. Like it's gonna be fine. Like, I just, I want to be friends. I think that we'd be good friends.

Lexi McDonald [01:17:22] And so that's when I very first started coming across anti Mormon stuff because he would post a lot. He was not lying. He would post a lot about things about the church. So he was the first person I heard from saying that the church leaders were paid, which I had never heard my whole life. I'd been taught that they were, you know, volunteer, no paid positions whatsoever. And I didn't really believe him. But at the same time I was like, you know, I don't, I don't believe that you're telling me the truth. But even if you are, like, it's understandable. Like they, they need to have, you know, you know, they.

Lexi McDonald [01:17:58] It makes sense to me in my mind, if they are paid, there's a reason for it and, you know, it matters. And then he also. I'm trying to remember all the things that he had said. Most of the time I just didn't believe him when he told me things.

Lexi McDonald [01:18:13] And if there was any sliver of doubt that what he was telling me was the truth, I would just think, you know, I would, I would reason my way around it and think, eh. I remember him complaining a lot about when the church built the City Creek Mall and how much money that cost.

Lexi McDonald [01:18:27] And I, I do remember, like, rationalizing in my head why, why it was okay and why it was all right that they spent the money that way and, you know, trying to even talk to other friends and family about it and see like, what, what, what they thought. Because this guy over here was saying this and he was making good points about how it was so superfluous. And so I talked to other people about it to try to, you know, make it, make it make sense in my head.

Lexi McDonald [01:18:57] But that was the first time that I'd ever come across anything anti Mormon. And I, I felt at the time like I was in a good position to handle that because I have a really strong testimony and, you know, it wasn't going to affect me. And at the time it didn't. I didn't. For the most part, I really just didn't believe him. He would say things and I'd be like, yeah, you're just making that up. That's not true at all.

Carah Burrell [01:19:22] Did you ever, like, go to follow up sources?

John Dehlin [01:19:24] Nope.

Lexi McDonald [01:19:25] No, no, no.

Carah Burrell [01:19:26] Like, it couldn't possibly be true. It's so crazy.

Lexi McDonald [01:19:28] Yeah, well. And I just thought, well, you know, the stuff he would say I felt was nitpicky sometimes. Like, he, he talked about that when Jeffrey R. Holland did that whole patty cake taffy pole thing, his whole monologue about that.

Carah Burrell [01:19:45] People who leave the church. Yeah, I hate people who leave the church. What kind of taffy patty cake pull is that? Yeah, it makes me so mad. He like, almost swore.

Lexi McDonald [01:19:54] Yeah, he was. And I remember being like, you know, and he sent that to me and was like, isn't this ridiculous that an apostle would do this? And I was like, no, no, no. He's just, you know, and I, I at the time loved Jeffrey R. Holland. Like, oh, yeah, he's such like a spiritual powerhouse. And I was like, you know, he's just, you know, he's just, it's just his personality. Like, yeah, like, don't, don't.

Carah Burrell [01:20:18] You're.

Lexi McDonald [01:20:18] You're being so, like, nitpicky. That's not something. It doesn't make the church not true.

Carah Burrell [01:20:23] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [01:20:23] So a lot of that kind of stuff. I was just like, oh, doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter. So that was kind of where I was at the whole very, very, very into the church. Heard a little bit of anti Mormon stuff, didn't believe it.

Lexi McDonald [01:20:42] And then in 2017, I was scrolling Facebook and in one of my LDS groups, it was an LDS mom group I was scrolling through and I saw a picture of my former bishop, and it was a mug shot.

Lexi McDonald [01:21:03] He had been arrested on allegations of sexual abuse of young, young men. And this is. This is the guy that he interviewed my husband and I to get our temple recommend. When we got married, he was at my wedding.

Lexi McDonald [01:21:23] He was a close family friend because my dad had served in the bishopric with him. They were close friends. And I mean, I knew him really well. His daughters were my age. I went to young women's with them for years. We'd known his family for years. And when I first saw that come up, I immediately thought that there's no way that that's true.

Carah Burrell [01:21:49] What made you think that? Is there like them? But they talk about a mantle of responsibility that. Did you think that this man is just so righteous? Yeah, well, I knew that position that he.

Lexi McDonald [01:21:59] I knew him personally, you know, Okay. I had known him for a lot of years, and he was a family friend, like a close family friend, somebody that, you know, we saw a lot. And I had had many personal interviews with him. He was my bishop.

Lexi McDonald [01:22:16] And the young men that, you know, there had been talk in the ward and gossip about how there were young men in the ward that were struggling, like, really hard. They were going through some real hard times. And that they were troubled youth was kind of the gossip.

Lexi McDonald [01:22:34] And so what I really thought at the time when I saw this was, well, those young men that are the troubled youth, they're just throwing around allegations to try to get him in trouble, you know, that's. That's not true. There's no way. I remember calling my parents and talking to them about it. They'd thinking, you know, the same thing. Well, you know, it's probably just troubled youth trying to get the bishop into trouble because they, you know, have issues and stuff.

Lexi McDonald [01:23:01] But, you know, come to find out that he'd actually turned himself in after finding out that they were, you know, the young men had gone to the police and stuff. So he had turned himself in and he was guilty.

Lexi McDonald [01:23:14] And I found out that the young men that were involved, they're my age, kids I went to school with, grew up around. They were also young men that my dad had been in Boy Scouts with for years and years.

Lexi McDonald [01:23:30] So it was really, really hard to find that out. And just think about the fact that, like, while I was having these bishops interviews, all of this stuff was going on where the bishop would drug these boys and he was in a position where the parents of the boys thought that, you know, he's the bishop and he's going to help and he would, he would drug and assault them.

Lexi McDonald [01:24:07] And it was really, really hard on everybody in that ward. We were a really, really tight knit ward, and it was hard on everyone, but it was really, especially hard on my dad because this is somebody that he thought of as a close friend and a confidant.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Served in a bishopric with him.

Lexi McDonald [01:24:25] Yeah, for a number of years. Yeah, he was a counselor in the bishopric.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] They.

Lexi McDonald [01:24:30] My. My dad had done, like, knew him well. Yeah, my dad was a marathon runner and they had like, done races together. And like, as the bishopric, you know, they would like, dress up and do races. And I mean, they were friends beyond even just like a, you know, church relationship. They were friends. And so it was really hard on our family. My dad, you know, and my dad had felt like, you know, the bishop would like, tell him to do things like go talk to the parents and, you know, tell them, you know, that, that this is what the Lord wants, that we're gonna, you know, do this to help the boys.

Lexi McDonald [01:25:07] And so my dad would pray about it and feel like, yeah, that's what, you know. And so he'd go and convince the parents to like, have intervention with the bishop and, you know, blah, blah, blah. So after this all happened, it was really, really hard on my dad thinking, like, why did I have spiritual feelings, that I was doing the right thing, being involved in all this and having the bishop help when this is. That's what was going on in the background.

Carah Burrell [01:25:35] So you're saying like the. Your dad was contemplating where those spiritual feelings came when he was literally helping a child rapist?

Lexi McDonald [01:25:42] Yeah, when it's like he had no idea at the time. Nobody did, obviously.

John Dehlin [01:25:48] How did he not get those messages?

Lexi McDonald [01:25:50] Right, right. Because, you know, you're a member of the bishopric, you're supposed to have the spirit of discernment and stuff. And this, you know, we found out that this had been happening years later. So it had been like my dad had been out of the bishopric after for a few years, and now he was in the high council when he found out about all this. And so he also had feelings of like, I've been, you know, part of people's course, the excommunication process, because I'm in the High Council. And so, you know, I have the spirit of discernment. I'm supposed to be able to, you know, know about this stuff and feel these things.

Lexi McDonald [01:26:22] And I've been judging other people's worthiness and I, you know, like, where, where does all of this, you know, how does this all affect me? And where was the Spirit and where was God? So I know that for him that was really, really hard and it was hard for me, but I can't even imagine, you know, with just how close he was with the bishop. So it was a really, really rough thing. And while at the time it didn't shake my testimony, I have realized, you know, in, in the passing years since that has happened that it really has affected me since then.

Lexi McDonald [01:27:07] There's still things that will happen in real life that will take me back to that because. And part of it is because when I initially saw his mug shot and thought that there's no way that's true, I have, like, if I, if I accidentally just put my trust in somebody like that again and take their side on something before knowing all of everything, it's given me panic attacks just taking me back to that and when that happened and how I believed somebody because they were somebody I thought I knew. So.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] Makes you wonder if you can trust anyone.

Lexi McDonald [01:27:48] Yeah, he was our, he was our spiritual leader. You know, he was for years an important part of our family and our ward family. And so it was, it was rough finding out about that. I definitely still struggle with it, but.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] And if the Mormon Church didn't have, number one, the practice of men interviewing minors alone, asking them sexually explicit questions, if there were always two deep interviews, and if there just wasn't this worthiness doctrine at all, the sin theology, the chew gum theology, and then somehow that the bishops or the church leaders are the intermediaries between the sinner and God. And so you have to meet with them alone and confess. And this is all the stuff Sam Young fought for with the Protect LDS Children movement, where the Church has made baby steps but has a long way to go. If none of that was there, then these youth would have never been put in that position.

Lexi McDonald [01:28:50] They should have never been in that position.

John Dehlin [01:28:52] And if there wasn't this idea that Mormon men, leaders or women get special communication from God, so we should all just like, if it's an rm, he must be righteous. Oh, it's a Mormon bishop. He would never do that. Just this whole leader worship claims of discernment and inspiration.

Lexi McDonald [01:29:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Sets us up to be groomed, sometimes assaulted.

Lexi McDonald [01:29:15] Yeah. And I did have, you know, after that happened, had a way harder time with, you know, and obviously I had grown up and moved out of that ward and was in a new one after that had happened.

Lexi McDonald [01:29:27] Just, you know, thinking about our current bishop and being like, this guy could be anybody, because the other guy I knew really well and this guy, you know, I just barely know. So who is he? Who is he really? Who are we meeting with in private? Who, you know, is this the guy that is going to interview my kids? Do I want him to do I want them to be alone? You know, so it brought up a lot of, like, that sort of feeling.

Lexi McDonald [01:29:51] And, you know, kind of in. In those, in those years, in that time period, I was starting to, you know, while I was still very much into perfectionism within the church, I was starting to have a little tiny bit more nuance where I.

Lexi McDonald [01:30:12] This is kind of when Donald Trump was running for president and all of that stuff. And I realized I do not like that guy, but all my Mormon family does. But I felt like that wasn't the way he was, wasn't the way that our, you know, values were.

Lexi McDonald [01:30:30] And so kind of from that and kind of from the stuff that happened with the bishop and just, just different little things that happened in my life, I started to be less, like, judgmental. I had a family or a close, close friend whose son was gay, who was a really strong member of the church. And I started getting feelings like, well, you know, God really doesn't want us to judge, and it's really not our place. And so I went from, you know, being that person that went through conference talks and found all the quotes about how it's terrible and sinful to have homosexual feelings to being somebody that was like, God just really wants us to pray for those people.

Lexi McDonald [01:31:17] And it doesn't. You know, we don't. We don't need to judge. And so in that way, I was starting to have a little bit more nuance. I was a little bit less kind of person that thought, a bishop can do no wrong. And now a person that thought, you know, I've. I've met a really terrible bishop and a really terrible person who affected my life and my entire ward family's life.

Lexi McDonald [01:31:40] And he's not perfect and he can't rely on people like that. And so I was starting to change a little bit slowly. The next year, I had my fourth baby and had my tubes tied, was done having kids, and I wanted to Kind of go on a journey of self improvement. I'd gained a lot of weight having kids, so I was like, I'm gonna lose weight and I'm going to be like super mom.

Self-Improvement Reading and Discovering Church History

Lexi McDonald [01:32:09] And I went on kind of this, it was basically a self improvement journey. Um, I started reading a lot of books about like self improvement, being a good person. I stopped doing the weird like overanalyzing conference talks thing. Instead just started being like, okay, I'm just going to like listen to a talk, you know, and have it instead of like having it be like by topic. I'm just going to pick randomly.

Lexi McDonald [01:32:35] So every day I would listen to a different conference talk. And I was being super good about reading my scriptures, super good about all that stuff, losing weight, feeling really good about myself. My husband and I, our relationship was improving because I was being less of a perfectionist and just letting things, you know, flow better.

Lexi McDonald [01:32:55] And In September of 2018, they. I remember our ward. I don't know if it was like the whole ward or if it was the church, you know, the prophet had asked, you know, in preparation for conference. Everybody listened to all the previous conference, you know, and so I don't remember if that was like a church wide thing or if it was just our ward, but that was the thing we were doing. So I was listening to like two talks a day and that's how I started my morning. I would listen to the scriptures on audiobook and then I would listen to two conference talks and then I would listen to like a self improvement YouTube video or something.

Lexi McDonald [01:33:30] And so I was like, I was just feeling real good. I had been, you know, losing weight, felt good about myself, felt like I, you know, I'm done having kids, like I'm never going to be pregnant again. My body can recover. I was doing really, really well. And my oldest son had his first primary program and I'd helped him like learn the songs and stuff. And so I was like on the spiritual high. I got to watch him do his primary program and it was so cute and I felt the spirit and I was just in a real good place. And then my brother in law was going on a mission, so we went to his farewell and you know, listened to him open his mission call in front of the Boise Temple.

Lexi McDonald [01:34:13] And it was just this beautiful experience. I was just, you know, it was like as good as it had ever been. It was just great. And I felt like I'm doing everything God wants me to do and you know, this is just good, going great.

Lexi McDonald [01:34:29] And my parents had within like the last like six months or so moved down to, from Utah county down to St. George. And so they'd been really, really busy with the move. And I hadn't heard from them a lot.

Lexi McDonald [01:34:43] And I'd kind of felt like, you know, they're like so busy, they're not paying much attention to me. You know, I'm an adult, but still, I'm their kid. I heard from my mom because I kind of brought up like, I don't. You guys like don't talk to me much anymore, like, what's going on? And stuff. And she had just mentioned my dad was struggling and knowing like what had happened with the bishop and stuff, I kind of wondered. And I'd look back to that conversation, the conversations I'd had with that ex Mormon guy who told me anti Mormon stuff.

Lexi McDonald [01:35:14] I was like, you know, maybe dad came across some of that stuff on the Internet, that anti Mormon stuff. Cause I'd had a few friends at that point that had left the church and I knew that there was something out there that people had looked at and it made them leave.

Lexi McDonald [01:35:30] And I thought, you know, that's probably what it is. That's probably what it is. But at the time I was on a spiritual high. My life was good, I was doing great. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna look into it. I'm gonna read that anti Mormon stuff because my testimony is, is so strong that it can withstand anything. I know the church is true. There's no doubt in my mind. And so in my head I kind of was thinking like, maybe there was like, maybe Joseph Smith did some bad thing and people are just clinging to that and that is why people are leaving the church.

Lexi McDonald [01:36:03] And that's, that's what's wrong with my dad. And I had no idea. Like I was totally just guessing and thinking that that was it. So one day, after I had read the scriptures and listened to two conference talks and listened to my self improvement stuff, I was like, okay, let's look at this anti Mormon stuff and see what it's all about.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] So what year are we at at this point?

Lexi McDonald [01:36:24] 2018.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] Okay, September, three years ago, right?

Lexi McDonald [01:36:26] Yeah. Okay. So I had a friend that I had, they'd posted something on their Instagram about the CES letter, but I couldn't remember what it was called. And so I'm like trying to look at her stuff and message them and be like, so like, what was that thing, that thing that you're talking about?

Carah Burrell [01:36:47] It's like an ex Mormon's dream.

Lexi McDonald [01:36:49] Yeah, I know, right? I was like, what was that thing that they didn't get back to me? And so I was like looking on their Instagram trying to find something. And then their highlight reel, they had something. And like looking through that find cesletter.org and I was like, that's that thing. That's the thing that people are leaning the church over.

Carah Burrell [01:37:06] Keep posting the CES letter. Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [01:37:08] There's.

Carah Burrell [01:37:10] Searching for it.

Lexi McDonald [01:37:11] I. Yeah. CES letter.org probably like 10 in the morning. My whole life changed that day.

Carah Burrell [01:37:20] Wow.

Lexi McDonald [01:37:21] Because. And I feel like this is kind of unusual. A lot of ex Mormons that I've talked to kind of have a period. They go through where they're learning things slowly for me. I read the whole thing more in a matter of hours. Didn't know 95 of what was in it. Had never heard in my life. The stuff I had heard was all from that ex Mormon guy. And I had believed him originally. So now I was here with all of this information, just totally shocked and amazed.

Key Issues That Led to Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:37:52] So for those who have never read it or who are have never been Mormon, tell us, let's just say five of the biggest things you read or three to eight or however many. Just the ones.

Lexi McDonald [01:38:03] Okay. I'll just list off a few things for me, things that were like game changers for me that I had never heard. Joseph Smith, being a polygamist and a polyandrist, I assumed.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] What's polyandrist?

Lexi McDonald [01:38:17] Where he's married to women who are already married to other men. Yeah. I had no idea on that. I had no idea that he married underage women. I had no idea that he was married to mother daughter pairs. I read the rock in the hat thing for the first time. Joseph Smith used a rock and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. I was. What? I had no idea about that. I had never heard about any of the treasure digging. I had never heard that the Book of Abraham was not what Joseph said. It was like. I didn't realize that we were able to use the Rosetta stone and translate what it was. And it wasn't what he said.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] He mistranslated the papyrus.

Lexi McDonald [01:38:59] Yeah. And then. And the kinderhook plates that he had attempted or said that he translated and were just totally made up plates. I was shocked by that. The Freemasonry and the temple ceremony. I didn't know about any of that. There was so much. Basically that whole book was just like a. What? Like I was blown away. So, yeah, I was in a spiral.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] I was spiraling what emotions did you experience reading?

Lexi McDonald [01:39:30] It was like my whole life was uprooted because like I said, I, this was my whole life. It wasn't just a belief. It was who I was, who I thought I was before I was born, who I thought I was going to be after I died. It was where my kids came from, it was who we are, it was reality. And now I'm questioning my entire reality based off of that.

Lexi McDonald [01:39:53] So, you know, it was absolutely tumultuous. I, it felt like, like everything just, just stopped all of a sudden. Like I was like, but if the church isn't true, my whole life has been a lie because I've based every decision I've ever made around the church being true, around this being reality.

Lexi McDonald [01:40:23] So, yeah, I was going through it that day and my husband was at work. I called him at work, you know, kind of word vomited. Like, I read the anti Mormon stuff and it's so bad, it's so bad because, you know, I went into it thinking Joseph Smith did one bad thing and everybody's leaving the church over it, not realizing that it's actually everything.

Lexi McDonald [01:40:49] So I, yeah, I called. My husband was freaking out. He, you know, as an rm, he was thinking he was gonna missionary all of this away. He's like, it's no big deal. Like, don't freak out, it's gonna be fine. Like, I'll get home and we'll go over it together and I can answer all your questions. And I'm like, that's not gonna happen. There's no way.

Lexi McDonald [01:41:07] He got home, went over all of it with him. And I remember like at first a couple of things, he was like, yeah, I've heard that. I, I, I can answer, you know, And I kept going, kept going, kept going. And I just see his eyes like, like getting wider and wider and he starts staring down at the floor.

Lexi McDonald [01:41:23] And I was like, if this stuff is all true, the church isn't. And from there I spent the next like months researching because I was like, I, you know, this is my whole life. This is my heritage, this is my culture. I can't just drop it. You know, I have to find out if this is real.

Lexi McDonald [01:41:44] Um, and so I went at it from every angle from spent the next few weeks and, you know, it was really hard. It was like in and out of tears every single day. Like, how can this be? How can that be? How can I have spent my whole life doing this?

Lexi McDonald [01:42:02] It felt, it was, it's a describable, it's indescribable. I was a hundred percent believing Mormon. And within three weeks, I lost all my faith. And I, I, you know, I did research from every angle. I wanted, you know, to give the church a chance because it was my whole life and I'd wanted it to be true because it was the only church where you could be with your family forever. And that's all I wanted, was to be with my kids forever. So I wasn't going to just drop it. And I wanted the church to be true. And I feel like that's something that I had never considered before.

Lexi McDonald [01:42:40] When I looked at other people who left, I thought that they were either being lazy or they were offended or they, you know, didn't want to follow all the rules. I didn't realize that it was so sad to lose your faith.

Lexi McDonald [01:42:54] So I went on Fair Mormon. I looked on the church website at the gospel topics essays, which I hadn't known existed up until that point. I was.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] And they'd been around for years.

Lexi McDonald [01:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. Which is like, it's so embarrassing to look back on, but that's where I was. And I went on YouTube. I didn't want to listen to Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:43:18] Had you heard about it?

Lexi McDonald [01:43:19] I heard of it in my Googling, but I didn't want to listen to it because first of all, I wasn't really into podcasts. And second of all, I felt like that was. Was too anti.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] Had you known I'd been excommunicated?

Lexi McDonald [01:43:34] I mean, I, I found out about it at some point along the way, but the first thing.

Carah Burrell [01:43:37] 16.

John Dehlin [01:43:38] I was excommunicated. 2015.

Lexi McDonald [01:43:41] The first thing I came across was a YouTube video. And I don't, I don't even know like what channel it was on or anything, but it was older and it was from when you were still a member. But you talked about the issues. I talked about Joseph Smith and all this stuff. And I felt like, well, he's still a member.

John Dehlin [01:43:58] So that was the white people leave the Mormon Church video or.

Lexi McDonald [01:44:01] Oh, yeah, maybe.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] Maybe there was also. I did too. I did why people leave the Mormon Church and how we can help. And then I followed that up with the five Myths and Truths about why People Leave the Church.

Lexi McDonald [01:44:11] It was probably that.

Carah Burrell [01:44:12] It has a bunch of data in that one, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [01:44:13] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [01:44:14] Yeah, that's really helpful. So, you know, there was that. And I went over. I remember specifically looking at a lot of Fair Mormon stuff and just hating it.

John Dehlin [01:44:22] Why?

Lexi McDonald [01:44:23] Because it made. It made me feel worse. Because a lot of the stuff felt like they were Admitting the things but like in a really rude way sometimes or like it's hard to describe. I just remember like reading through some of their pages and looking at their thoughts on the issues and they were just excusing things. It wasn't helping me feel any better. It made me feel worse because it made it seem like things that were clearly not okay, they were trying to make it seem like they were when it just isn't. And I felt like we shouldn't be trying to excuse this. We should be, you know, if this is, if the church was true, they, they should be just like apologizing straight up for that or, you know, being like, yeah, we were wrong instead of being like, yeah, Joseph Smith did do that, but here's why.

Lexi McDonald [01:45:16] It wasn't super sleazy and gross. And I felt like that's how a lot of it was. And so fair Mormon hurt my testimony more than it helped.

Carah Burrell [01:45:26] I would also like to say same here. Yeah, you think this is the best they can do? This is not very good. This is worse than I imagined.

Lexi McDonald [01:45:34] Well, that's part of the thing that was weird about it was I was like, I was like, I'm trying here. I'm trying to give the church a chance. I want the church to be true. And this website is supposed to be an apologist website. Like I feel like this should be helping and it's making me feel worse. It's making me feel like, well, the church, church definitely isn't true if this is the best you got.

Carah Burrell [01:45:52] Exactly.

Lexi McDonald [01:45:53] So anyway, I spent, I spent a lot of time like over the next few weeks. That's all I was doing was like taking care of my kids, researching the church and that was it. I spent 100 of my time with an earbud in my ear, listening to YouTube stuff or reading things, rabbit holing. I was so bad. Like so bad.

Lexi McDonald [01:46:14] And I, I actually found Jimmy Snow around that time too. But I saw that his channel was Dear Mr. Atheist. I was super freaked out by that. Wasn't going to watch any of that. But his Mormon stuff I did look at, I found your TED Talk and was super, super loved that. I probably listened to that like five times.

Lexi McDonald [01:46:35] And so it was within. I mean I, I rabbit holed for months after that, but for that first month was where I really was going through every little thing, spending 100 of all my time figuring out what I believed because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to be in a limbo. I wanted to know what the truth was. And Be done with it. You know, I want the church to either be true or not. And I don't want to spend my life on the edge or not believing and going to church or. Or, you know, any of that. I just wanted to be all in or all out.

Lexi McDonald [01:47:15] So I felt really compelled to just find out the truth about everything and be done is what ended up happening. I kept my husband in the loop on everything. I would show him everything. We sat and listened to podcasts through YouTube videos together.

Lexi McDonald [01:47:29] I told him everything I learned. Showed him the fair Mormon stuff. He was also not impressed. Read the gospel topics essays together. And I think that the day that, you know, I read the CES letter and everything started to fall apart. We were only a few days from General Conference at that point, and so that day came, and we'd been, you know, reading and researching for a few days, and we both decided, like, let's not. Let's not listen to it this week. Let's not.

Lexi McDonald [01:48:03] Um, and we spent that Sunday shopping at Target for Halloween stuff instead with our kids. And I remember at the time feeling so, like, this is incredibly rebellious. We're at Target on a Sunday. But it was a really good day. And, you know, I had kind of in the back of my mind, a little bit of guilt. But I also had a great day with my family and realized, like, I'm not in a hurry here to get everybody ready to go anywhere, and I feel good.

Lexi McDonald [01:48:34] I'd had a lot of. It was a hard time. You know, I had the time. I had four little kids under the age of four. And going to church was hard. It was really hard to get everybody ready in the morning. There was a lot of times that we were grumpy and kids are screaming and then being in church, trying to keep everybody entertained, you know, telling, like, little teeny kids shout over and over and over and over for hours. I mean, nobody had a good time. Nobody had a great time.

Carah Burrell [01:49:04] I would have left the church on just having to do that. Literally, that was so difficult to do. It was.

The Process of Stepping Away and Family Isolation

Lexi McDonald [01:49:10] It was rough. So, you know, missing church that or missing General Conference, that first Sunday was kind of our first step out and continued from there. Our. But a member of the bishopric kept reaching out in the next month or two. I don't know if he had a question or something, if he wanted us to do something or if he was trying to extend a calling. And I kind of just kept putting it off, and I ended up finally texting him back and just being like, I'm sorry, we're not, we're done. We're not coming back to church.

John Dehlin [01:49:47] Done, huh?

Lexi McDonald [01:49:49] And I didn't know what he would do. Like, I figured that maybe he would just leave us alone. But he ended up talking to the bishop and then the bishop wanted to know why, like, why aren't you, like, why? What do you, what do you mean? Cuz we'd been active, you know. And so he asked if he and a counselor could come over to chat.

Carah Burrell [01:50:07] And

Lexi McDonald [01:50:09] my husband was like, no, I don't want any part of that. I don't want to talk to them, I don't want to see them. But I was kind of thinking, actually, no, I do kind of want to see what he says about some of this. So I let them come over without my. When my husband was at work one day and they had a little chat with me about why we weren't going to come back to church. And I brought up, you know, just a few of the issues, a few of the reasons, and I don't remember all of them anymore, but I do

Carah Burrell [01:50:45] remember

Lexi McDonald [01:50:47] that for the most part they had no idea what I was talking about. And being like, you see, you're a bishop, you're the bishop and you're counselor and you guys don't even know about this stuff. You know, I'd brought up some of the Joseph Smith issues with, with the polygamy and the underage wives and the Rock in the Hat and the Book of Abraham and they looked overwhelmed. They looked like, you know, you're, you know, you're probably just pulling this stuff off the Internet. It's not true. And I was like, but it is like, you can look it up. You.

Lexi McDonald [01:51:19] So I remember just being like, that's, this is exactly what I mean. Because all of this stuff, you know, one of the things that you'd said in one of your videos that I'd first listened to was, you know, all of this stuff doesn't make the church not true. And I thought to myself, well, maybe it doesn't, but the fact that they lied about all of it and hid it, that might, you know, and that was one of the things that had bothered me the most, was that the church, all of this stuff was out there and a lot of non Mormons knew about it. And here I was, a member my whole life.

Lexi McDonald [01:51:53] And I was, you know, I studied, I graduated seminary, I did my personal progress. I tried really, really hard to be a great Mormon. And I didn't know any of this, so why didn't you teach it to me? Why did I have to learn it from an outside source?

John Dehlin [01:52:08] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [01:52:09] So we told the. I told the bishop, like, all of this is why. And he. I don't remember the exact talk, but I do remember he brought a talk by Dallin H. Oaks. And it was an awful talk. I'm pretty sure it was the one that he gave in 2018 in October. And it was like, well, there's information on the Internet out there also. We believe really strongly in gender, and there's, you know, God has chosen our gender and stuff. And I was like, why would you bring this? This is a terrible talk. This makes me really unhappy. This doesn't help me at all.

Lexi McDonald [01:52:41] But he. Before we ended the interview, I said, I. I would like to ask for the church not to send us anything. I don't want any more contact. I just want to be left alone. And, you know, the bishop and his counselor were, you know, for all of their not knowing what I was talking about, they were really polite. And I felt like they did. You know, they were great. They were nice, and they agreed that. That we would have no more contact. And I was like, great, awesome. We're done.

Lexi McDonald [01:53:11] But then, probably within the next month and a half, they kept sending things. Kept. We had two little kids at nursery at the time, and the nursery teacher got switched. So they had a new teacher that I had never met. I didn't know who she was. She brought over these little packets for kids that had this thing on it that was like, we miss seeing you at nurseries.

Lexi McDonald [01:53:32] And I was like, first of all, I've asked you not to bring stuff over anymore. Second of all, my kids are like one and two. They don't know you. You don't know them. You don't miss them. Why would you bring something over for, like, a toddler that says, we miss you at church when they know I'm the one bringing them or not? It bothered me a lot that they would do that.

Lexi McDonald [01:53:55] And they'd also dropped off a few other things or left things. And, uh, that at that point, my husband and I were like, let's. Let's get. Let's resign. Because I. Before that, I had thought, there's no re. Like, there's no reason to resign. I don't see the point in that. I just want to be done. I don't want to think about it anymore. But after they kept doing that and brought stuff for our kids, I was like, all right, let's. Let's actually resign. Let's get out of it. Let's be Done. Um, and during all of this time, you know, I. I felt like I'd really lost my community because all of my friends are members of the church.

Lexi McDonald [01:54:31] My whole family is members of the church. I couldn't talk to anybody about any of this because everybody that I have ever known my whole life is a member of the church. I had, like, two or three friends that had left, and I did. I reached out to them right away, you know, to just be like, hi, it's me, your Molly Mormon friend whose entire life has been now turned upside down.

Lexi McDonald [01:54:53] So I did have some friends, but it was like two or three. And I felt like I can't talk to anybody else. I can't even, you know, talk to my parents about this. And, you know, I did initially talk to my dad because I, you know, I still didn't know what was going on with him, but I thought that, you know, he's got something with the church, you know, something weird because he, you know, all this stuff happened with the bishop, so certainly he could maybe understand sort of where I'm coming from him.

Lexi McDonald [01:55:20] And at the time that I talked to him about it and told them, like, I'm questioning. I didn't say, like, I don't believe anymore. I just said, I don't know. And I'm kind of, you know, I'm iffy. He. I felt like we were kind of on the same page. Like, I felt like, you know, he understands. Like, he gets it. He also has some complaints about the church. So, you know, I felt I left on a good note thinking that we were.

Lexi McDonald [01:55:43] We kind of got it. We kind of got each other. Um, and then in January of 2018 is. Or 2019 is, when we finally had decided to resign and the church had come out with the come follow me curriculum. And our family texted, wanting to do, like, a let's all do the come follow me curriculum together kind of a thing, and we'll all talk about it together. And we were both like, oh, we don't want to do that. But we also weren't really ready to tell them that we'd left the church yet because we were scared of how they would react.

Lexi McDonald [01:56:20] And we kind of felt like we didn't have a choice, though, because we didn't know how to say no without them, you know, being like, well, why? At that point, we told our families that we were no longer members, and we didn't want. Want to be and we didn't want to talk about it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] Can I just say I want to highlight something that's a super ethical, ethical problem. Because you know, the first of all, Mormon church leadership have known about all these things in the CS letter they've known about since 1910, 1920, all of them. Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, View of the Hebrews, Joseph's polygamy. They've known it all, right? And they've intentionally chosen not to educate the members and to perpetuate whitewashed, correlated, deceptive narrative to the members. So that's number, strike number one of dishonesty. And of course there's the Leonard Arrington stuff in the 70s and the September 6th in the 90s and all the different ways Fawn Brody excommunicating her in the, in the 40s, all the ways they've excommunicated and punished anyone who ever talked about these things to keep it out of the members consciousness and to keep the members from not knowing all these problems. So that's kind of strike, strike two

Lexi McDonald [01:57:44] or three or four.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] But then you fast forward to the essays which the Internet, you know, forced them to, to produce. But we know from Elder Stephen Snow, church historian, and Marlon Jensen that they intentionally did not advertise the essays. They wanted them to be there for plausible deniability, to be able to say, see, we're honest about our history. But they didn't want members broadly to know about them. And so to this day, bishops, stake presidents, you know, everyone, members everywhere, still don't know that they even exist. But the, but the, but strength three or four or five or six, I'm losing track, is that they could just very easily train all stake presidents, all stake high councilmen, all bishops, all bishopric members, all Relief Society presidents, all young women's leaders, all ces.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] They could train them on all the historical problems so that everybody knew the problems, so that you know, then when Lexi has this faith crisis, it the bishop's like not clueless, right? And you don't have to worry about telling your family because they already know. But the church hasn't done that.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] Even when they've been honest, they couldn't be honest about being honest. And then they've left this burden on you and others to have to educate your bishop, educate your leaders, educate your spouse, educate your parents. And it's unethical. The ethical thing to do would be for the church to just come clean church wide and then deal with the consequences. But that's the ethical thing to do. But because they haven't done that, you're having to carry all this burden and shame and pain that isn't really yours to bear, and it's just a little soapbox, but.

Grief, Informed Consent, and Life After Belief

Lexi McDonald [01:59:30] Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it was one of the things, again, that just bothered me the most about it was knowing that I had tried my whole life to be a really good Mormon and nobody had ever told me all of this stuff. And they could have. And, you know, it's one of the things that still bothers me today is, you know, making content and seeing comments like, everybody knows this, this just being like, no, they don't actually. I didn't know it. My family didn't know it, my husband didn't know it, my friends didn't know it, my bishop didn't know it.

Lexi McDonald [01:59:59] It's just, it's weird. It's. It's weird to, to know exactly how much was left out, you know, in seminary lessons and stuff, when you're saying they could teach, you know, all of the leaders within the church all of this information and how to talk about it and how to deal with it. You know, they could, they really could, and they just haven't. And nobody, nobody knew.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] And for so long, people have said, well, John, you're just trying to take people out of the church. You're just trying to destroy the church and destroy faith. No. And I've just gotten the language in the past few years of how to talk about this. It goes back to consent. People that are members of the church deserve to know what they're a member of. People who are joining the church deserve to know, know what they're joining. Missionaries who go out, who use their reputation, their time, their money to be serving the church and preaching the gospel, being the church's salespeople for all intents and purposes.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] They deserve to know everything about the organization that they're shilling for or they're selling. It's about informed consent. And to this day, every single minute that goes by where Mormon Church members are giving money to the church, giving their time, their reputation, their lives to the church, without being fully informed of the history of the problems, is just a massive epidemic of non consensual undue influence by the church on its membership. And that it has to stop. And that's one of the reasons I haven't stopped Mormon stories yet. I think that's probably why you do what you do, what Carah does, what she does, and because we just want everybody to engage the church with full knowledge and full consent.

Lexi McDonald [02:01:41] Well, yeah, and it's, it's easy to understand that when you've been in that position, but a lot of people haven't, obviously. And that's kind of one of the reasons, you know, I will tell my story and talk about it, because for me, it wasn't like this little thing where, you know, I found out and it's no big deal. It was life changing. My whole life was on one path because of the church, because of the things the church told me, because of, you know, I was living my life this way. My kids, we would have all lived our life this way. I would have raised them a certain way.

Lexi McDonald [02:02:16] I made all of my choices based on the church being true and on believing that because the church was true, I was going to be with my family forever. And so it's, I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, people that are members of the church give 10% of their income to the church and that's a lot of money and that's a big deal. But more than just that, it's. It's giving your whole life, everything you are, your whole identity being wrapped up in the church being true. And for me, finding the information. Yeah. And not, not having all of that and then finding it out later and there being stuff that to this day, two and a half years later, I'm still learning that I wish somebody would have told me when I was a

Carah Burrell [02:03:00] member

Lexi McDonald [02:03:02] and just how hard it was to have my entire belief system collapse and go from having a plan for exactly how my life would go and what I was going to do when I die, how, you know, my entire future I had planned out in my head and my castles above and this information the church could have and should have taught me, they didn't. And so now my whole identity is lost. I didn't know how to not be a Mormon. I didn't know how to raise my kids without the church. I didn't know what was going to happen to me. I didn't know, you know, I.

Lexi McDonald [02:03:51] I wanted and was very, very happy with the idea of dying, being with my family forever in the afterlife together. And when I lost my faith in the church, it felt like I had lost my whole future. The future I had planned for myself was gone.

Lexi McDonald [02:04:11] So, you know, when people talk to me about why do you care so much? Why does it matter? That was everything that was my whole life and it was gone in the matter of a few hours. Reading a book and finding out information that, like you said, they could have told me and did not.

Lexi McDonald [02:04:30] So it's, it is a really big deal to me. And helping other people that go through that is a really big deal to me. So during. During all of that, you know, telling our families we weren't members, I did feel like. And that's another huge part of it. I'd lost my community.

Lexi McDonald [02:04:47] Didn't feel like I could talk to anybody about it because they don't want to hear it, you know, and you don't want to force people to hear it.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] It.

Lexi McDonald [02:04:51] I didn't want to, you know, word vomit everything I'd learned to members of my family, you know, especially those who are happy, you know, they're happy, they're living their life in the church, and they're good. And, you know, if. If I tell my grandma this, you know, what. What if her whole world collapsed when she's, you know, 80 years old? Who wants that? So I felt like I couldn't have. I didn't have anyone to talk to anymore. And I went looking online for a new community, and that's when I kind of came across, like, holy crap, there's thousands of ex Mormons. Like, look how many there are.

Lexi McDonald [02:05:23] They're everywhere. There's a whole, like, Reddit thing. There's groups. So I started joining all this stuff and, you know, posting a lot, trying to meet new people, people that, you know, and it was so validating to hear that other people had felt the same way and had learned the same things and were shocked the way I was shocked and who were. Were sad the way I was sad.

Lexi McDonald [02:05:49] And I felt a lot of comfort doing that. I felt a lot of comfort finding Mormon stories, finding Zelf on the shelf, finding all these other people that I could totally relate to. So that's what. The next few months after I left the church were spent kind of building. Trying to build a new community and find new friends and people who were in a similar position as me, who I felt like, could understand what I was going through the way that nobody in my family could.

Lexi McDonald [02:06:21] And I. I was pretty happy, like, doing that. I was happy with the way things were going and who, you know, all the people I was meeting and all of that. And at the. This is like May 2019.

Lexi McDonald [02:06:37] Been out of the church for, like, six months, making some new friends. Was really into watching, like, still, you know, still kind of on my learning stuff about the church journey, really into, like, self on the shelf and stuff. And I went on Facebook and Zelph on the shelf had posted some video on there, and I'm pretty sure it was just Tanner talking about, you know, his journey out of the church and how it felt or whatever.

Lexi McDonald [02:07:02] And I commented on it and just said, this is totally relatable or something like that. Like, I get it, or, you know, something. Something basic. And my dad saw the comment and commented sad with an exclamation mark. And I was like, what does that mean? You know, like, this is. There's nothing sad, you know, very baby

Carah Burrell [02:07:26] boomer type comment, Right?

Lexi McDonald [02:07:28] Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, I was. And I was irritated because I was like, I thought that we were kind of. Of maybe on the same page sort of with the church, like. So I ended up calling him the next day to just, you know, see where he was at, kind of. Because I was like, hey, I saw, you know, this, and it ended real bad. We.

Lexi McDonald [02:07:49] We had a real big fight on the phone. I realized that we. We weren't on the same page the way I thought we were. You know, he was. He has his own things, and I'm not going to go into his life, but we weren't on the same page the way I thought we were. I thought we kind of both understood that the church had problems. And the way he talked to me, it made me feel like I was crazy and, you know, I was being a bad person by being. You know, I remember one of the things he said was, well, why do you need a support group? And I was like, because my whole life got turned upside down. What do you mean?

John Dehlin [02:08:27] Because I want to die?

Carah Burrell [02:08:28] Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [02:08:29] Because life is, like, really hard and collapsed. It was. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:08:33] And I left the matrix. Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [02:08:35] He didn't understand that at all, you know, and then, you know, I was like, I have to talk to people about this. Like, this is. I don't think you understand, like. And I don't understand how you don't understand. If you have questions about the church, you must understand that you have to have somebody to talk to, because this is. Is so big and so scary. And he ended up yelling at me on the phone, you left the church. Good for you, but keep your mouth shut about it.

John Dehlin [02:09:10] And,

Lexi McDonald [02:09:12] you know, it didn't end. It didn't end well.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] How'd that feel?

Lexi McDonald [02:09:18] Like the most invalidating. It hurt. It hurt a lot, especially coming from my dad. And, you know, especially considering that I thought he kind of got it a little bit at least maybe. And to hear him say that and to.

Lexi McDonald [02:09:46] To feel like he didn't care at all how I was feeling after leaving, because it's not like I was happy, you know, I didn't leave the church and be like, yay, I'm so glad. I was really sad because I'd lost my My eternal salvation and, you know, my whole community and everything. And I didn't have anyone to talk to and it was hard and I just felt like he did not care and he didn't get it it.

Lexi McDonald [02:10:14] And so we ended up hanging up the phone and I went right on one of my ex Mormon groups and told him what had happened and what he'd said. And I, I blocked every single Mormon that I knew on Facebook because I figured, you know, if it hurts him, it's making him so upset that he would say that kind of thing and be that upset at me if it's hurting him to see when I post, you know, and it wasn't even like I'd posted anything on Facebook. I just commented on something elf did. I was like, but if that is upsetting him that much, then maybe it's upsetting everybody else too. So I blocked all of my Mormon family members and friends. You know, I'm left with very few friends at that point.

John Dehlin [02:10:56] Now you're self isolating.

Lexi McDonald [02:10:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] Which the church would love, right?

Lexi McDonald [02:11:02] Yeah. So I did that up and told all of my ex Mormon group friends what had happened, started adding some of them as friends because I needed somebody that got it. And I was like, I need some new friends. I need some new community. And I, I, I'm feeling awful about this. And they were all super, super supportive, super understanding. A lot of people understand because they've been through it with their family. And that day was really hard. And I was real sad that day. But the next day I woke up and I thought, I'm not gonna do what he said. I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut.

Finding Community and Support as an Ex-Mormon

Lexi McDonald [02:11:45] Because when I left the church, it was really, really hard. And people like John de Lynn and Zelf on the Shelf and Jimmy Snow and Jeremy Reynolds, that's the only reason I got through it was being able to have something to fall back on, someone to listen to, somebody to validate what I was going through, somebody to just help me, you know, it felt like I, you know, didn't know any of those people personally, but it felt like I had made some friends that got it. And then all of the people that also listened to those kinds of things, all the other ex Mormons that were in the groups that I was in and on Reddit and all that stuff, I was like, we need each other.

Lexi McDonald [02:12:25] You know, we need a community, we need friends, we need people who get it. I'm not going to keep my mouth shut. So I went out in my car and I recorded a video on my Phone where I talked about why I left the church and why I'm going to talk about it. And I.

John Dehlin [02:12:46] Birth of eczema. Lex, right here.

Lexi McDonald [02:12:49] It's weird because it's not something I thought I would continue doing, but I just wanted, you know, I was kind of almost lashing out, like, you want me to shut up? I'm not gonna shut up. You know, I look up at all these other people and they are brave and they, they've talked about their stories and it's. It helped me and I want to help other people. So I made a video and uploaded it and I. To YouTube.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] So you started a channel channel?

Lexi McDonald [02:13:16] Well, I had, I just had like a YouTube channel that I'd uploaded other stuff on, like concert videos and stuff. And I just put it on there and then I shared it with my ex Mormon friends on an ex Mormon group on Facebook. And it's just like, remember that stuff? My dad said, well, here's my response, you know, and people are really nice and they liked it. And it started getting shared around and a whole bunch of people, like, I mean, I was shocked by how many people were like, you should do more.

Lexi McDonald [02:13:45] And I was like, well, maybe I will, like, if people like it or whatever. And that was May 24th of 2019 when I uploaded that video. It's been almost two years and people, people kept asking me to do more. So I did. I recorded a couple more videos and people were like, into it and I was so surprised that they, they.

Lexi McDonald [02:14:13] I really liked it. For me, it was cathartic to be able to say the things that I was feeling out loud and to have other people be like, I get it. Like, I feel the same way. And, you know, as people started to watch or subscribe to the channel and stuff, I felt like I was getting more friends and I, I felt like a new community was forming. I'd lost my ward family and now I'm gaining a new one. And they're all like really supportive and really nice people.

Lexi McDonald [02:14:48] So that's kind of where that started. And I didn't make it very far into it. Maybe like a couple months I've been doing that and I got a call from my mom and I remember her answering the phone and her voice like shaking and being like, do you have an anti Mormon YouTube channel? And being like, just dread, you know, like, oh my God, oh no. How could they have found it already? You know,

Carah Burrell [02:15:21] there's no lying your way out of that one.

Lexi McDonald [02:15:23] Yeah, well. And I tried to explain to her the difference between You. Because I still don't like to think of myself as an anti Mormon. Like, that's just, like, I'm not anti Mormon.

Carah Burrell [02:15:33] Say true things.

Lexi McDonald [02:15:34] Yeah. Like, I'm not anti Mormon. I'm pro truth.

Carah Burrell [02:15:38] I know. I love saying that, too.

Lexi McDonald [02:15:40] It's. There's not. And that's the thing. I have nothing against, like, all of my family is Mormon, you know, all of them. And there are many of them. They're all Mormon. I love all of them. I have nothing against them. It's a church I have problems with. It's the lying and the. The whitewashing and the history hiding and

Carah Burrell [02:15:57] all that stuff, but actually that you care about them. You love them so much and you love people like them. There's. We could get into a whole other subject of why we even do this, but I really think it's like an allegiance to truth, an allegiance to empathy and allegiance to our Mormon heritage and our family and caring about people.

Lexi McDonald [02:16:13] Because, like, I mean, we've been there. I've been that person. And part of the reason that I made a video and then continued to make them is because I remember what it was like to be in that position, and I wanted to be able to help people if they wanted it. And, you know, I'm like, I'm not shoving this down anybody's throat. I'm not. Not forcing you to watch it. I'm not putting it in front of you. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, it's. It's something that you have to go to my channel to find. I'm not, like, posting it for all my family to see.

Lexi McDonald [02:16:38] Kind of. I blocked all my Mormon friends. None of them are seeing it. You know, I'm just sharing it with people that want it. And so my mom and I, you know, our relationship has changed a bit, but in general, like, she's been amazing. She's definitely more nuanced than she was when I was a kid.

Lexi McDonald [02:16:56] She's supportive and really nice. My dad had a harder time, and he. You know, we probably didn't talk for a few months after they found out about the YouTube thing. But it's gotten better since then, and the community has only grown, and it's been, like, life changing in the best way.

Lexi McDonald [02:17:16] Leaving the church was really, really hard, and I don't want to, like, ever make it seem like, oh, that was just, like, no big deal. It was easy for me. It was rough. But the community that I have now and the friends that I've made and, like, the connections that I'VE found since then has just changed my life so much.

John Dehlin [02:17:39] And

Lexi McDonald [02:17:41] I feel like it's still, to this day, it's still happening. Like in the last month, there's so many new people that I've met and become friends with with because of talking about leaving the church. And I feel like it's something that it definitely helps me. It's cathartic to talk about, like, absolutely.

Lexi McDonald [02:18:02] But I get, you know, emails and messages and comments from people that say that something I said like, really helped them or maybe even changed their life. And like, oh my God, that just makes me tear up and feel so happy and like, like it's absolutely worth it. Even if, like my family's upset, even if a family is disappointed, I'm, I'm making a difference to someone.

Lexi McDonald [02:18:23] And being that I was in that position at one point and understanding what that's like and understanding how people like you helped me, it just makes me feel like this is definitely the right thing to do. And I want everybody else to do it too because it's just like, like it's life changing and beautiful and so, so happy.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Yeah, I love it. Preach it, sister. You know, learning about Stephen Hasson and his work about, about Colts has been really important for me. But then recently I've been doing a series with Luna Lindsay Corbden who wrote this amazing book called Recovering Agency. And we're right in the middle of a five episode, 15, 16 hour series on, on their book called Recovery Agency. And it's about undue influence. And Lindsay's identified like 31 tools or techniques that unhealthy organizations use to have undue influence on the, you know, and it's businesses, it's, it's political parties, it's religions, it's not, not, it's governments, it's not just churches, but it, but it does have a Mormon lens.

John Dehlin [02:19:40] And there's just a couple ones that really stood out for me as I hear you tell the story. So one is that unhealthy organizations hide the truth about their history and then they control the information that their members receive about it and they, they warn people away from dangerous, you know, apostates and they, and they label information as dangerous or bad so that members won't learn about it. And then if they learn about it, they won't access it. And then there's this idea of milieu control, which is where they use your family and social pressures to keep people in line and to keep people silent.

John Dehlin [02:20:19] And those are all things that you mentioned in your story. And it was even heartbreaking to know that a parent not to bag on your dad. I know you love your parents and everybody's doing the best they can, and you and I would have been your dad, you know, until we weren't. Right. We would have been the enforcers. Right?

Lexi McDonald [02:20:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] But how sad it is for me that, that. That unhealthy organizations, when they're being unhealthy, would create an environment where a parent would become the enforcer on their own kid, Telling the kid to stay quiet, making the kid feel awful.

John Dehlin [02:20:59] Being an enforcer arm of keeping the information from people more broadly and then using parental influence to pressure children into silence that then again prevents members from the informed consent. It's preventing people and it's coming between you. So instead of it being like, oh, I'm a parent. I'm here for you. How can I help you? Lexi, I'm so sorry you're going through this. Let me learn everything you learned. Let's talk about it and process it. Immediately the barriers go up, wedges get put down, and all of a sudden families are being divided when like, rule number one of God and. Or religion it should be, if it doesn't strengthen family, there's something wrong with it.

John Dehlin [02:21:45] Right. If it doesn't unite people, there's something wrong with it. All of a sudden, something that's supposed to be all about families is now severing and making it more difficult for you to have a good relationship with your dad and mom. And it's. And it's severing family ties.

Lexi McDonald [02:22:00] Yeah. And I felt like. I mean, it goes beyond, like, just, you know, parent with children, like, parent with adult children. I feel like, you know, I'm an adult, and at the time I was like, how come, you know, I'm going through this and you don't want to hear what I have to say or what I learned? Like, because you trust these 15 old guys you've never met more than you trust your own family members.

Lexi McDonald [02:22:25] And I mean, nobody. That's one of the things with both sides of my family. Nobody asked why we left. Nobody wanted to know. They didn't want to hear it. They didn't want. Nobody said, you know, well, what did you learn that made you question? What did you learn that hurt your faith? Nobody asked. Nobody wanted to hear about it.

Lexi McDonald [02:22:46] And, you know, I have. I've had all this stuff with my dad and on my side of the family where it's been difficult, but even on my husband's side of the family, they found out we Left. And they, I found out later that they went through and told all the other kids, my husband's the oldest son. They went and told all the younger ones, don't be alone with Brendan and Lexi.

Lexi McDonald [02:23:12] They, you know, bad influence, um, they might, you know, lead you astray the way that they've been led astray. When they found out that we were atheists, that we didn't believe in God anymore, they told everybody that we were Satanists.

Lexi McDonald [02:23:25] They made us seem real scary. My brother in law was on a mission when we left the church, they told him not to talk to us. They told him to distance himself from us. And so it's like, not only are we losing our community because it's just really isolating to lose your faith and, and you know, not have this in common with other people, but people are actually saying don't talk to them.

Lexi McDonald [02:23:48] And you know, it makes me upset. But it also makes sense because at the time, you know, it felt like nobody asked why did you leave? And now I'm hearing later, like, well, because like they were specifically saying don't talk to them, don't ask them questions. We don't want you to go down the same horrible path that they did.

Lexi McDonald [02:24:09] So I mean it was, it's really isolating and it's, it's just sad the way it, you know, you go from, oh, our organization is so pro family unless you leave and then, sorry, you're not going to be with them in the afterlife. And we probably shouldn't talk much anymore because I don't want your bad influence around me or my children.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] Yeah. How was that for you guys emotionally?

Family Relationships and Social Pressure After Leaving

Lexi McDonald [02:24:36] It was really hard to be.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] I call it soft shunning. Right?

Lexi McDonald [02:24:39] Yeah. And it's, it's not only just, you know, trying to have us not be like around each other too much or don't talk to them too much or don't ask them questions. Those also things like, you know, we leave the church and they immediately send an email with like a list of things that they, that we're not allowed to do, like don't swear in my house or don't make sexual jokes when they do the same thing. You know, like you guys swear that I'm not allowed to because I'm not a member or like I'm not allowed to make sexual jokes even though you make more sexual jokes than anybody I've ever met and you're a member does, you know, kind of like you, I don't know, like separating us, even though dehumanizing and.

Lexi McDonald [02:25:21] Yeah, Somebody or like, you know, you take like a Mike's Hard Lemonade at a camping trip and them, like, literally crying about it and just being like, this is next to nothing. You realize that, right? But then, like, crying and, like, being so upset and just like, you know, feeling like, I can't live my life around you guys, I have to pretend to be somebody else when I'm around you. Because who I am without the veil of Mormonism is a threat to you or is a, you know, makes you uncomfortable. And I never want to make people uncomfortable. You know, I'm like, I'll do whatever I can to, you know, not hurt your feelings.

Lexi McDonald [02:26:02] And I'm not going to talk about the church and I'm not gonna, you know, bring up anything that's going to, you know, affect you, like. But it's weird to sort of be a different person when you're with your own family members because you have to pretend to be somebody else. This sort of identity that I had as a Mormon, it was my whole identity. And I've sort of had to just like, figure out who I really am without that, you know.

Lexi McDonald [02:26:28] But the person that I am when. With my friends that are not Mormons versus the person I am around my family is kind of a different person because I have to, like, put. It's like I'm putting on a coat, like, putting back on the Mormonism for a couple hours when I go to a family reunion and. And then peeling it off so I can go be myself again. It's. It's a weird phenomenon

John Dehlin [02:26:49] in my family. There's a particular family member that won't. Won't talk to me, will leave the room if I come in the room, who will not have a relationship with me and doesn't want other family members to be near me or my children and tries to, you know, and the justification is it's not, not. It's not that, John, you know, you lost your faith.

John Dehlin [02:27:12] It's that you are a public spokesperson and you're literally, like, evangelizing your loss of faith and in their words, trying to take people out of the church. And that's so. So in their minds, that's what justifies for them the shunning and the severing of all relationships and the separation of our families. Have you.

John Dehlin [02:27:39] Has that ever come up? And if you had to tease that out, any of the differential, the poor treatment being from just the fact that you're no longer on. On the gospel plan versus the fact that you've now become a vocal Spokesperson.

Lexi McDonald [02:27:54] There's definitely been some of that. I feel like still, for them, the biggest issue is just that we left in general. But. But there has been, you know, a point at which my husband was, like, posting things on Facebook that really offended his family. And they came over. They just, like, invited themselves over to our house and screamed at him about it for, like, three hours. It was awful.

Carah Burrell [02:28:16] Do you mind saying what it was about?

Lexi McDonald [02:28:18] Well, he. I mean, he just, like, spent a month. He had. He had a sort of moment where he was like, like, why am I just hiding all of this? Like, I'm. I'm just gonna post it. I'm just gonna post about it. And I actually warned him against doing that. I was like, your family's gonna be real mad if you post just whatever

Carah Burrell [02:28:33] was on his mind generally about the church.

Lexi McDonald [02:28:34] So he'd, like, you know, share memes or.

Carah Burrell [02:28:37] Okay.

Lexi McDonald [02:28:37] You know, just stuff like that. And, you know, things that Mormons generally find extremely offensive. Like, any. Any sort of making fun of Joseph Smith or the temple clothes or anything, you know, so, yeah, he had posted some of that stuff, and they came uncorked and just absolutely lost it at him. And they actually, at that point had said, like, well, when Lexi posts stuff, at least she's not posting it, like, on her Facebook wall where all the family members can see. And I just kind of was like, you know, like.

John Dehlin [02:29:08] Because you were. You just blocked them all or.

Lexi McDonald [02:29:11] Yeah, I didn't. I'm not friends with, like, Mormons really, on Facebook because of that. Because I don't want to accidentally offend them the way I did my dad that one time, because there's.

Carah Burrell [02:29:19] I don't know if you've experienced this. It's a problem on Facebook. You can type something on a different page, you follow, and your Facebook friends will sometimes see that notified and.

Lexi McDonald [02:29:28] Yeah, yeah. Which is what happened with that little comment on the Zelf on the show

Carah Burrell [02:29:32] pages that they don't even follow that your friend commented this. So.

Lexi McDonald [02:29:36] Yeah, and I didn't think it would be a big deal at the time, but apparently it was a real big deal.

Carah Burrell [02:29:40] Right.

Lexi McDonald [02:29:41] So. Yeah, I mean, I feel like for the most part, we don't really talk about it. Like, a lot of the. You know, they know what I do. A lot of them. Most of them, I think, at this point, no, what I do, especially after some of the Tick Tock stuff went viral, a lot of people saw that. And so I feel like most people in my family know what I do, and they kind of avoid talking about It. Avoid talking about the church. Avoid it at all costs. My mom is the only one I talk to about it. And like I said, the person that she is and the Mormon that she is, very, very, very different Mormon than the one I grew up with.

Lexi McDonald [02:30:18] And I feel like a lot of that does have to do with my changes within the church, because while I haven't gone into depth with her about a lot of, you know, the things that made me leave, she. She has heard from me, like, how I felt about it and how certain things that happened in my life affected me, how the church affected me and where I'm at now.

Lexi McDonald [02:30:42] And so I've definitely seen her go from the really strict Mormon mom to now being the, like, really accepting, comforting, God loves you no matter what kind of mom. So that's actually been really nice.

John Dehlin [02:30:57] That's great. Okay, so here, this might be one of the most important questions, in my view, that I asked today. And I'll just give a little background. So I just listed all those, you know, tools or techniques of. Of. Of high demand religions and organizations to control their members and to wield undue influence. Things like silence, secrecy, withholding information, you know, ostracizing heretics or. Or skeptics.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] And it's just the bite model. Controlling behavior, controlling information to control your thoughts and then manipulating you with emotions like fear. So the antidote to that, right, is people speaking up. Sorry. I'll conclude that what I just said with the. With the idea that silence is the killer. Why is there continued sexual assault? Why, you know, why is, there, you know, youth, youth people continuing to be abused by leadership? Why is there misogyny? Why is there racism? Why is there sexism? Why is there LGBT problems? You know, pick all the problems. Silence is the killer because we don't talk about consent, we don't talk about race problems, we don't talk about LGBT issues, transgender stuff?

John Dehlin [02:32:14] Silence is the killer. We talk about abuse. We don't talk about rape, about assault. We cover it up. We paper over it, we hide it. We pretend like everything's fine. So silence is the killer. Which means the antidote is people speaking up. It's people speaking up when they know they're going to be potentially excommunicated or disfellowshipped when they know their parents are going to be disappointed, when they know that it could affect their marriage, when they know that it could affect their.

Lexi McDonald [02:32:39] Their.

John Dehlin [02:32:39] Their community, their social relationship, their family. When it could affect their own well being, their own financial well being, their own mental health, their Family, you know, think about your spouse and kids and how much stress and pressure speaking up can be for them. So they're all like, there are a zillion reasons within Mormonism to stay silent. Even if you stop believing, keep going, just hide it and lie. Right. Or if you don't, go, and if you do leave, just leave quietly and never speak up. And I just want to say I bless. And, you know, everybody's got a different life. It's not that people that speak up are better than those that don't.

John Dehlin [02:33:17] I don't think everyone should speak up. Everyone just has to look inside and decide what their calling is and what. What their. What they have, their privilege, the resources and the ability to do so. No judgment. And I, you know, if I think there is a superpower out there, something that makes someone in my mind a. A superhero within this space is number one. When they decide they're going to speak up publicly, and then when they decide if they. If they then go further and create a platform.

John Dehlin [02:33:53] You know, think about all these people like, you know, Bill Real or RFM or. Or Lindsay Hanson park or, you know, Carah. No. And so, you know, Jeremy Runnels. These are people that said, not only am I going to speak up, but I'm going to create a platform, and then I'm going to start generating content. And then even that. Tons of people do. But then how many people quit after a couple podcasts or a couple videos or a couple posts? The. The backlash and the heat starts coming and then they shrink. Drink. Right.

Lexi McDonald [02:34:26] Yeah. Which is understandable.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] Totally. No. Any of this.

Carah Burrell [02:34:29] Another reason is that it's just you've moved on and you just cannot. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:35] Which is good.

Carah Burrell [02:34:35] Yeah. Yeah. You've moved on and that you just. You can't be bothered to think about your past anymore. And you want to end one chapter and start another party.

John Dehlin [02:34:42] It's not healthy. All bless everyone who makes all the different decisions, then let's just say the three of us have made. And the only antidote to the lack of informed consent and the continued pain and suffering is people speaking out. So can you just talk about that? Like this is just your time to spend 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes on just that whole process of deciding and then what. What you face when you do, and then what's hard in your own mind, the insecurities, the criticisms, the comments take us through the journey of becoming what you've become, which is a vocal spokesperson advocating for informed consent and truth and openness and honesty within a high demand religion. Context?

Lexi McDonald [02:35:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:32] That's a big question.

Lexi McDonald [02:35:33] It is. There's a lot to go over on that. So, I mean, when I. When I started and when I made that first video, I didn't really have in mind that, like, I'm gonna do this a lot and, like, become like, a recognizable person or anything like that. Like, it's really still weird to. To even, like, hear you say that.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] You don't do it for celebrity.

Carah Burrell [02:35:52] No.

John Dehlin [02:35:53] Or for money.

Lexi McDonald [02:35:54] No. And I. I feel like, you know, that first one was. It was partly, you know, a reaction to the stuff my dad had said to me and to thinking, like, you know, I spent 24 hours being like, should I just shut up? Like, should I be quiet? Should, you know, is that what would be better for me, for my family, for the world to just, you know, get out of these ex Mormon groups and leave? Leave it. And I'm like, I can't. I can't.

John Dehlin [02:36:23] It's what they want, though. They want everyone to be quiet. Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [02:36:25] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, half the comments I get are like, why do you. Why are you still talking about this? But making that first video, seeing the way that people reacted to it, you know, it probably got, like, 500 views in the first couple of days.

Lexi McDonald [02:36:42] But to me, you know, that was a lot. And everybody. Everyone was so supportive and just like, I love this. This was so helpful. Or this was, you know, it was positive. It was all positive reactions, and people were so, you know, they reacted really well to it. And I had said in the video, like, I guess I could, like, make another one if you want. And so people were asking me to.

Lexi McDonald [02:37:06] And I thought a lot about how I had felt in my own journey after how I'd felt after reading the CES letter when it, you know, my whole life was, like, turned upside down, and I was so scared. I was so scared. How am I going to raise my kids without the church?

Carah Burrell [02:37:26] I don't.

Lexi McDonald [02:37:27] I don't know. I don't know where I'm lost. And there were people to turn to, and I felt like I. You know, I made one video, people liked it and I liked it, and I could do this, you know, I could do that.

Lexi McDonald [02:37:44] So continuing to make them and continuing to still get positive feedback and more and more people that were interested in hearing what I had to say, it was really. It was really good for me. I felt like, you know, this. If it wasn't good for my mental health, if this wasn't helping me, if this was making me sad, if this was hurting me, I wouldn't do it anymore because I don't want to put myself through that. You know, that might be selfish, but like I, I'm a mom and I'm a wife and I have to be there for my family. So if this is not something that's beneficial to me, I'm not going to do it.

Lexi McDonald [02:38:18] But I was finding that it was how. It really helped me process. It helped me. I mean I was doing research so I was learning more about the church and doing that was just really good for me. It really made me.

Lexi McDonald [02:38:34] Learning and growing and absorbing new information just felt really good. And then sharing that with other people felt really good. And have. I think other people say like, oh my God, Lex, that what you said right here, that was what I've been needing to hear. Thank you. Or you know, I, I have been struggling with how to tell my family this. And this really got me through that. And I was like, yes, that's what I want. Like, I want to help people the way that people helped me. That's what I want.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] Not, you know, gives you meaning and purpose, right?

Lexi McDonald [02:39:02] Yeah, it really did. It really still does. And you know, as time has gone on, it's been almost two years, you know, the YouTube has grown. The tick tock went absolutely nuts.

Creating Content on YouTube and TikTok

John Dehlin [02:39:14] So what's it like when things start going viral or because you've got some videos on YouTube, what, tens of thousands of views, Maybe even more.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:21] Like, I think the first one has like close to 200,000 or something.

John Dehlin [02:39:24] That's amazing.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:25] Yeah, especially on YouTube.

John Dehlin [02:39:27] That's hard.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:28] Yeah, I mean I could be. It's probably like 180 or something. Something like that.

Carah Burrell [02:39:33] Fact check.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:35] But I mean it's, it's weird because suddenly people are coming out of the woodwork that know me and have seen what I'm doing on the Internet, like

John Dehlin [02:39:44] in, in daily life.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:46] People see you and recognize you.

Lexi McDonald [02:39:48] I have had people recognize me actually. Like a few months ago was at a car dealership and some girl came up to me and was like, I just want you to know that, that your YouTube videos changed my life. And I was like, what's that? Like, oh my God. I almost cried right there.

Lexi McDonald [02:40:05] You know, there's, there's been a few. I mean it's, it's always really nice to hear when people are, you know, positive and nice and happy and kind and that they've, they've been benefited in some way. That's always great. But there's been a few emails or things that I've gotten from people, you know, especially if they have kids, where it's really relatable to me as somebody who has four little kids, them saying, you know, my family of five has left the church and we're doing so much better because of your videos. And that, for me is just.

Lexi McDonald [02:40:40] It's just. It really. It really. It makes me feel like all of the crap that I went through in the church and the fact that I tried, you know, to be every member a missionary, I feel like I'm making up for that because I know that the church had a lot of negative effects on me now that I look back on it. And I hope and, you know, every. Every time that somebody says something like that, like, this helped change my family's life or whatever, I'm like, that's. That's what I want. I want to counteract any negative that I did when I was in the church, because I know I did.

Lexi McDonald [02:41:14] I was a perfectionist, and I forced that on other people. Some of the talks I gave in church, like, oh, man. So I'm really. It makes me feel like I'm making up for any bad decisions I made when I was in the church and, you know, fixing it and helping people, like, it feels good. It just does.

Lexi McDonald [02:41:33] So it's been really great. And on some level, it is weird, though, when, you know, people that I went to church with find out about my stuff and they'll email and sometimes say negative things, or.

John Dehlin [02:41:46] They'll email you?

Lexi McDonald [02:41:47] Yeah, and say, I've gotten several, you know, messages or emails from people, and they'll usually say something like, wow, I'm just so sad for you. Or, like, I just feel sorry for you because you're so angry. And I'm like, that's not really how I describe it. But, you know, so I've definitely gotten a few of those. Few of those, like, oh, like, wow, I feel bad for you and your kids. Like, wow, you, you know, sucks for your kids kind of a thing, which is kind of hurtful as a mom.

Lexi McDonald [02:42:17] And I definitely. It's. It's weird to, you know, it's great when people are positive, and for the most part, they are. I'd say, like, majority of the people, just awesome, wonderful. And, you know, such. Such sweet and engaging comments. But then there's always going to be, you know, people who say things like, you left the church and you can't leave it alone, and all the, like, other things. Like, everybody knows all this stuff. Like, why are you continuing to talk about this? Everybody knows about it, or, you Just didn't have faith. I. I feel like, you know, what's

John Dehlin [02:42:53] your response to that?

Carah Burrell [02:42:54] Or, like, what's your response from the first time you got those comments? Because I used to feel like I had, like, should I defend myself or should I just ignore them? And is there a way that you handled them then versus the way that you probably get them so much now?

Lexi McDonald [02:43:07] I mean, I talk about them. I still really. I talk about that kind of stuff a lot. I bring up those comments, and I usually do defend or at least, like, talk about it, because I feel like it's.

Lexi McDonald [02:43:17] Sometimes it's hard for me to even process. I'm like, you know, if I can talk about it and help other people, you know, who maybe get these kind of comments, like, you know, I'll process it, I'll talk through it so that they, you know, have some kind of, like, basis, because it's. It's kind of complicated sometimes. But, you know, I. I knew myself better than anybody else did, and I knew what I believed and I knew the faith that I had and nobody else did. Um, so it's really not up to anybody else to judge what kind of faith I had and how faithful I was, because I know where I was at.

Lexi McDonald [02:43:51] And, you know, those kind of comments, especially moving on to a platform like TikTok, where you can respond with a video directly to a comment, has been kind of nice. Nice. Because I feel like it really, in a lot of ways, when I respond to hate comments. It's, you know, it's fun, it can be funny. But it really highlights how culty the church is because you see the way the members react when somebody criticizes the church. They get all just, you know, get their garments in a bunch. They get so upset, they, you know, hurl insults. They accuse me of having no faith or of just being a terrible person, or, you know, you're a core whore.

Lexi McDonald [02:44:36] They really get, like, this, us versus them, black and white thinking. And I like to highlight that because I feel like, you know, for people that aren't members, and they can see, like, look how these people react. Look how Mormons react when you criticize their leaders. Do you see how upset and angry they get about it? About me? Just like, literally, I read out of the Book of Mormon sometimes, and people will get so mad, like. And I'm like, you see? Like, I'm not. I'm not hating. I read a quote out of the Book of Mormon and I have all these hate comments. This is how they react.

Lexi McDonald [02:45:10] And so I feel like that really highlights for people that haven't been in a cult, haven't been in an organization like that, how it affects the people and the kind of mindset that they have, the way that they will react so viscerally to any sort of criticism at all.

Lexi McDonald [02:45:26] And sometimes I'll make videos where it's like, I just talk about my experience. Like, here's what it was like for me when I went through the temple. And so I just talk about how I felt and I don't go into anything else, just how I felt. And people get so mad and I'm like, I'm not. This isn't like a hate video. This is a my experience video. And they'll report it for hate, hate speech.

Lexi McDonald [02:45:50] And you know, they've had videos get taken down that way where I'm like, but that, that's not what hate speech means. This is just my experience as a member of the Mormon Church. So, I mean, there was a point when I very first started TikTok, you know, I had one of my first videos ever went viral and I was like, ah, you know, it was, it was a lot at once because, you know, you go from YouTube, which is a fairly small, I have pretty small platform on YouTube, to having a million people or 2 million people see a video I made, and you get, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of comments.

Lexi McDonald [02:46:26] And just the amount of people that have something bad to say is all of a sudden huge. And so there was when I very first made TikTok and was getting tons of traction on it, there was like a period I went through where I was like, this is like, not fun. Like, I'm not loving this. I'm not loving all the hate that I'm getting for this because I feel like I'm doing the right thing. And I feel like I'm doing this because I care about people and because I want to help people.

Lexi McDonald [02:46:57] And here are all these Mormons that are just furious with me for talking about it. And it kind of took me back to the way I felt when my dad had been like, shut, shut your mouth about it it. Or I was just like, am I like negatively affecting the world right now? Like, I. And I, I did have kind of a little bit of a doubt, like, am I like, should I continue doing this because it's hurting me?

Lexi McDonald [02:47:28] And I decided to just be vulnerable about that and talk about it on my YouTube channel and again, got lots of support and was kind of of able to, you know, read some positive comments. And a lot of people, you Know, just poured their support into, you know, saying like, this really did help me. Don't stop what you're doing. This is life changing. And I thought back to, you know, just the way my life changed when I was able to find other people that were, that were vocal about the church, whether that was through a YouTube channel or a podcast or even just, just going on like ex Mormon groups on Facebook and Reddit and writing out their whole story in like six paragraphs, all of those kinds of things.

Lexi McDonald [02:48:13] Every time I saw one of those things that helped. And so it kind of took me back to, you know, I'm gonna get hate comments. I am, and I was a Mormon, so I get it. I remember what it was like to be a Mormon and want to defend the church against that ex Mormon, anti Mormon friend I had.

Lexi McDonald [02:48:30] I get it. And maybe they don't because they've never been an ex Mormon. And so I feel like for me, I, I have been in both positions and I can look past it. You know, they're going to be mad and they're going to be angry, but maybe someday they'll change their mind just like I did. Maybe they'll look into it more, maybe they'll learn some information, maybe they will sort to sort of deprogramming a little bit and they will get out of it and then, you know, they'll be just like me, me.

Lexi McDonald [02:48:58] So, I mean, it's, it's hate comments, you know, they suck. But I see myself in them too. And you know, those people might end up being like me or us someday. So I, it's not all bad when I think about it that way.

Responding to Critics and Staying Engaged

John Dehlin [02:49:20] So really quickly, for those who say, Lexi, you left the church, but you, you, you can't leave it alone. What's your response to that?

Lexi McDonald [02:49:30] There's so many responses I could have to that. I guess the main thing would just be that I left the church. But it's still my culture, it's still my heritage, it's where I come from. I'm a seventh generation Mormon. It's my family, it's my friends, it's my whole life.

Lexi McDonald [02:49:46] And I still really, really care about the people that are in. And if I can do anything to help them the way that the people before me helped me, then I will do it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna leave it alone if it, you know, if leaving it alone means leaving those people behind.

Lexi McDonald [02:50:04] So yeah, you're right. I'm not gonna leave it alone. I am bitter about it. I am upset about It. And I think I have a right to be. And I think that if you can leave the church after being as heavily indoctrinated as I was, that's not normal. That would be weird. That would be weird to just completely never think about it again. It was my entire identity, me. And I'm not gonna just drop that and never think about it or talk about it again.

John Dehlin [02:50:29] Okay. How about. You're just angry. You're just bitter.

Lexi McDonald [02:50:32] I am bitter. I won't lie.

John Dehlin [02:50:36] But that's supposed to show you.

Carah Burrell [02:50:37] And Mormonism tells you it has just such a. They want you to be happy. They want to own your happiness. And if you're not happy, that means you don't. You're not with them. It's like being bitter is a human emotion. I went through some, like, let me be bitter.

Lexi McDonald [02:50:49] There's.

Carah Burrell [02:50:49] And that's.

Lexi McDonald [02:50:50] Yeah. They teach you in the church that negative emotions come from Satan. And it's like, no, negative emotions are healthy. Like, for me to be upset about being lied to for my whole life, that is normal.

John Dehlin [02:51:04] Normal.

Lexi McDonald [02:51:05] We. I mean, that's. Of course, dude. Anybody would be. So, I mean, it's. It might be true on many levels that I'm bitter about leaving the church, bitter about what the church did, but that's normal, and it's okay and it's healthy. And it's not like, that is my whole drive. Like, I'm not over here. Like, I'm just mad. So I'm gonna make mad videos. And I feel like if people genuinely watched and listened to my content, they would see that. Because for the most part, I'm like, I'm really trying here to be positive and to come from a place of love. And, you know, I make jokes and I'm sarcastic and I laugh about things, but that's because, like, it's cathartic for me.

Lexi McDonald [02:51:48] It's cathartic for other people. I need a community. Other people need a community. You know, we make funny videos, and it's like, for other ex Mormons, they get that we laugh, we commiserate, we create a community. I'm not mad, like, at Mormons.

Lexi McDonald [02:52:04] I'm upset that the church lied to me. And I want to educate people. I want to befriend people. I want to build a new community. I want to be honest. And there's nothing wrong with, you know, having emotions, processing those emotions. And I guess that's it. Just having them. It's okay. It's okay.

Lexi McDonald [02:52:29] And I know that people are going to throw it around, throw around you being bitter and angry as such a negative, terrible thing. And I'm. I. I'm of the mindset that it's. It's okay and normal and healthy to be bitter after you leave, not even

Carah Burrell [02:52:43] labeling it with the words bitter or angry, like you're a person. Like, I am like John, who. We had an experience as a human being where the universe spit us out in this religion. We're having an experience, and now we're post that experience and trying to grow into something else. And if we can funnel that into something that is beneficial for people who are also trying to make a new life for themselves outside of that religious indoctrination.

Carah Burrell [02:53:10] Yeah, I don't feel like the words. The words angry or bitter are just. They're just words. At the end of the day, it's just people living experiences and funneling them into something healthy. And it'd be one thing if you. I think people get it in their heads that bitter and angry ex Mormons that we. We sit around thinking, and we're like, mahaha, you know, like, we're thinking about how to destroy the church. We're like, what's on your mind? What's on my mind every day is probably. Probably reading messages from people who are doing exactly like you said. Like, I was in a dark place and you said this. Thank you so much.

Lexi McDonald [02:53:41] That's.

Carah Burrell [02:53:41] What's on our mind is like, how can I empathize with people who are exactly who I was two years ago, who they're at that exact point. And it's. I think it's almost one of the healthiest ways that you can grow from being raised in Mormonism and leaving is funneling that into something healthy and productive for the same people who are hurting.

Lexi McDonald [02:54:00] Yeah, I love that. It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] And once you look at, like, let's just say, Luna, Lindsay Corbin's 31, you know, tools of undue influence, you realize how much the conditioning. And I would. I don't want to say brainwashing, because that's loaded language, but just all the different mental, psychological, intellectual hooks that are in our brains, that are in our identity, that shape our worldview. It takes at least a year for every 10 years you're a raised Mormon, just to unpack and unravel and let all those things identify them, let them fall to the floor and then decide what you want to pick up and what you want to add and to rebuild your identity, your morality, your spirituality, your worldview. That takes time. And the only way to process and to unpack is to laugh, to cry, to rage, to. To mock. All that stuff is a.

Carah Burrell [02:55:06] Is.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] Is an important part of taking your power back. Teasing through the good and the bad, identifying the bad stuff that you never want to be a part of your future, throwing that away, finding out what you want, which sometimes you figure out by looking at what you don't want, and then rebuilding a life that. That does involve anger, rage, frustration, mocking, sarcasm. And those are all we have, those emotions because they're valuable. So you lean into them all.

Carah Burrell [02:55:38] Yeah, lean into them.

John Dehlin [02:55:39] You lean into them for sure. And you. You embrace them. It's just like the movie Inside out. When you, when you suppress and deny the emotions, you just shut down and you lack growth. When you embrace the emotions and ride with them and lean into them, then they take you where they're intended to take you, which is into learning, into healing, and into growth. And all of this. The. Even the, you know, wearing temple clothes. Like, I'm not, you know, that's a. I wanted to ask you about, like, controversial, like most successful videos on YouTube and TikTok and most controversial ones, ones you regret. But you know, and personally, my vibe isn't to wear the dress up in the temple clothes and, and to.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] I'm not gonna. This is in judgment when I say that. But like, some would say, well, don't make a mockery of what's taken for other people. I get that. And that's actually kind of the brand or the strategic approach that I've taken.

John Dehlin [02:56:38] And I see why for many people, that's liberation. That's like throwing off the chains, psychological chains of your oppressor. It's mocking something that was made so sacred because maybe you don't feel that way anymore. And maybe by mocking it, it's the way that you ratchet it down and its control and power over you. And I can see why even that for many people is an important part of the process. Yeah, I just ranted. Rant over. But.

Lexi McDonald [02:57:09] But yeah, it's okay. I. I think like going on the lines with that, with the temple clothes and stuff, I did do.

John Dehlin [02:57:17] You guys did that, right?

Lexi McDonald [02:57:18] Yeah, I did a video on YouTube with my husband where we wore the temple clothes and just like talked through the temple ceremony for people that, you know, have never done it. And for us, like, I liked what you said about it being like taking the power away from it where it's had so much power over us. And of course, you know, I, I totally. And I totally understand what you're saying too about like, for some people, that's just way too far. Or it's, you know, it's mocking something that's sacred to somebody. It was sacred to me too. I've been there. I understand that.

Lexi McDonald [02:57:48] I get that. And I wouldn't. And, and that's kind of a thing a lot of people bring up when they're upset about that. When they see that video, if they're going to be angry, they're angry about it because they're like, well, would you do this with another religion's sacred clothing? And I'm like, no, but, but I wasn't that religion. Maybe if I was an ex Muslim, then I would do that with their clothes. But I'm not. I'm an ex Mormon. That was my wedding dress. So, yeah, like, I, I feel like that's my culture, my heritage, my stuff, my own clothing. And I'm. I'm gonna talk about it if I wanna talk about it.

Lexi McDonald [02:58:24] And it, you know, for some people, it was helpful for them, it was helpful for us. Us. And I, I feel like, you know, I benefited from it because it did take it from being something that in my mind before was just too sacred to even like, talk about outside of the temple to now. Something that's just, it's just clothing. It's just a garment. It's just a piece of cloth. And it's not something that has power over me. It's not something that controls my life. It's not something that, that, you know, I have to look forward and think in the future, like, oh, am I going to be wearing that when I go to heaven? Like, that's. It's not, it's nothing. It's not a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:59:05] You're deprogramming when you do that.

Lexi McDonald [02:59:06] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:59:06] Feels good to shoot your sacred cows sometimes. And I'm looking at the video on your YouTube page and it's pretty clear what it is going to be.

Lexi McDonald [02:59:14] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:59:15] So TikTok's a little bit different, but with YouTube, people pretty much know if they're going on to something that says exmo Lex, Ex Mormon, reveal temple experience and it looks like you're dressed in your temple clothes. People know what they're getting into a lot of times when they click on these videos. So do you get like, upset when people are like, you know, you're in my comment section telling me what I shouldn't be doing with my own temple

John Dehlin [02:59:37] clothes when you don't need to be here?

Lexi McDonald [02:59:38] Yeah, nobody. Nobody told you had to watch. I actually, that video I like at the very Beginning of it, I put like, this video will show, right? Me and my husband, who are ex Mormons, wearing our temple clothes. Click away. And I shared that David Bednar quote that was like, that's a great way to start. That's hilarious.

Carah Burrell [02:59:59] Yeah, I remember watching that now.

Lexi McDonald [03:00:01] Yeah. It's a choice to be offended and let's proceed. Yeah, yeah. Because I figured, like, you know, if you're a Mormon and you don't want to see that, I don't want you to have to. So don't watch it, you know, And I try to be super clear about that, but of course, you know, of course they're gonna watch it anyway and get mad, but. Which, you know, and, and I, I, I, I get it. I'm like, you know what? It's fine. I've been a Mormon. I get, you know, the mindset. And that's the thing, I think that a lot of people don't understand and I didn't understand when I was a Mormon, is like, people that leave the church, they know how I feel because they've been where I am, they've been who I am, they've said the things I've said, they felt the way I felt, they've believed the things I believed, and now they believe differently.

Lexi McDonald [03:00:42] And I've never been where they are, so I don't know. And I never even considered that it was hard or difficult or sad for them to leave the church. I only saw it from my own perspective. So, you know, when people leave hate comments and they get mad about the temple clothes and stuff, you know, I am at a point where I feel like I, I kind of just let it roll off my back like water off a duck's back. Just, you know, it's okay. Like, you, you know, you can be mad. It's okay. I understand. But this is my life and this is my experience, and this is where I'm going with it, and this is how I feel.

Carah Burrell [03:01:16] Do you try to get inside the head of, like, the Mormon commenter? Like, I do sometimes where you're like, I know what you're thinking in your head is the worst faith interpretation of this. Like, I am sitting here putting on my temple clothes because I want you to cry in your bedroom at me, mocking you. Like, I hope that you feel pain. It's like, this really has nothing to do with you. This has to do with my, my experience, my ex Mormon friends that my community and trying to, like, heal and move on and grow. And that's, again, I don't dress in my temple clothes.

Carah Burrell [03:01:46] But I have absolutely nothing against people who do because I think shooting sacred cows is a fine approach to take, but there's different lanes and different paths that people take. And if that's like the way that you express yourself, Mormons are really usually pretty Republican and pretty pro free speech up until ex Mormons start talking.

Lexi McDonald [03:02:04] Well, and that's part of the thing too is where you know, they feel like religion is just too sacred. You just don't go there. And I am of the opinion that nothing is too sacred. We, we're going to talk about this stuff, we're going to peel the stuff apart. And your religion, my religion, our religion, any religion is not above criticism for sure. And you know, my whole life being spent in a religion where it was literally like next to apostasy to criticize or question the leadership and the religion. I'm you know, kind of gone on 1 8, done 180 and I'm the opposite now like I'm, we're going to criticize, we're going to question, we're going to analyze, we're going to go into all of it.

John Dehlin [03:02:43] And Mormons should want that because you know, Mormons don't want to be called cults. Right. Well, guess what, what's one of the defining characteristics of a cult? You can't criticize the leadership, you can't criticize the organization. People who do get shunned and punished. So you can't have it both ways. And I think J. Reuben Clark's quote, quote the Jeremy Reynolds quotes at the beginning of the CES letter, if we have the truth, it cannot be harmed. If we have not the truth, it should be harmed like that should. You know, you don't want to have a cult, you don't want to be called a cult.

John Dehlin [03:03:11] Then, then don't, you know, encourage cult like behaviors, which means be big people, put on your big person under clothes, let yourself be criticized, let the skeletons be discussed, have sunlight, be the best, a disinfectant and then usher yourselves into the age where the Mormon church is no longer called a cult. Right?

Lexi McDonald [03:03:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] You have the power to help make that happen?

Lexi McDonald [03:03:36] Absolutely. Yeah, I've definitely and I've, I feel like I've changed my opinions on it as time has gone on. It's been two and a half years since I left the church and you know, two to two and a half years ago I would not have worn my temple clothes and made a YouTube video about it. I wouldn't have done that. But I'm at The point now where I. I feel differently and, you know, maybe in four years I'll look back and be like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have done that. But this is where I am now.

Lexi McDonald [03:04:01] And I'm trying to live my life in a way where, you know, no regrets. Because I feel like since leaving the church and I've matured a lot and I've gotten to the point where I'm way better at understanding why I feel the way I do, processing my emotions and looking back at my past life and being able to process that better and understand that better and. And see how it made me into the person that I am today.

Lexi McDonald [03:04:28] And so, you know, for my husband and I to wear those clothes, it was. It was fun for us, it was good for us, it was healthy for us. And, you know, there's going to be mad people about it, but there's also a lot of people that really liked that video and that got a lot out of it. There are people that.

John Dehlin [03:04:44] What did they say?

Lexi McDonald [03:04:45] There's a lot of people that left the church before they ever went through. And so being able to see all the clothes and see all the, you know, we. We talked about the handshakes, we talked about the clothing changes. We changed the clothes on camera to show what happened in the temple. There were a lot of people that were like, wow, I never went through the temple. I never heard any of this. I didn't know about this. So it was helpful for them in that way to see it.

Lexi McDonald [03:05:07] There were a lot of people that just. For them, it's just cathartic to hear it talked about and to, like you had said, take away the power of it and take it into. Okay, no, it's just cloak clothes. It's just clothes. It's not this, like, sacred, untouchable thing that we don't talk about, that we don't even mention outside of the temple because it's too sacred.

Lexi McDonald [03:05:27] So for those people. There are a lot of people that watched it that have never been Mormon, that don't know about that stuff, because the church, I mean, up until very recently didn't show the clothing at all. Now they have, like, pictures of it not being worn, you know, on their website or whatever. But it's been very, very, very secretive. And so being able to see it for people is educational.

Lexi McDonald [03:05:52] And I've even gotten messages from people who are Freemasons and been like, what? The clothes, Those look familiar. You know, so I feel like, you know, the only people that are going to be real mad about it are people who still hold it in such high regard.

Lexi McDonald [03:06:09] And again, like, my content, it's just. It's not for those people. And I try with most of my content to say ahead of time and to make it pretty obvious, like, this isn't. If you're happy in the church and your life is great and you're not questioning and you're not doubting and you're all good, then my content isn't for you. You know, I try to, like, hashtag it, Ex Mormon, everything X Mormon, Tick Tock, Ex Mormon Community, Ex Mormon, blah, blah, blah. My name is Ex Molex. Like, before I do videos like that on YouTube, I try to preface it by saying like. Like, this is gonna show something that could be upsetting.

Lexi McDonald [03:06:45] Just so you know, like, I really try to not upset people. I'm not out here trying to make people mad. I'm not out here trying to upset the Mormons. I'm not out here, like, I'm gonna make people mad today. It's really not about that.

Lexi McDonald [03:06:58] So I don't know. That's kind of my take on the whole sacred and it's too sacred to talk about or too sacred to criticize thing.

John Dehlin [03:07:06] Yeah. There's also just a we. If we keep on this theme of informed consent, there are all these Mormon teens and youth that are going into the Mormon Temple not knowing beforehand what they're going to be wearing, what it's about, what they're going to be promising. So whenever you or, you know, Nune. No. Or whoever talks about the temple, anyone on, you know, Tick Tock or whatever helps facilitate informed consent because it lets people know what they're getting into before they get into it, which is still.

Lexi McDonald [03:07:36] It's still really surprising to me sometimes how many Mormons just don't know. And I guess it shouldn't be that surprising because I was in that position and I didn't know half the stuff. But it's still so surprising. Sometimes when I make a video and I talk about, oh, these are the garments, these are the underwear you have to wear. And I get comments from Mormon teenagers like, no, you don't. You don't. That's not real. Or like, there's some of them that are like, you only have to wear that in the temple. And I'm like, like, garments. No, you have to wear garments.

John Dehlin [03:08:01] They don't dress like that in the temple every day.

Lexi McDonald [03:08:03] Yeah, they don't wear that. I did a video where I talked about how, you know, Mormons like to be buried in their temple. Clothes. And so many Mormon teenagers like, no, that's not true. And I'm like, oh, babe, yeah, it is.

Carah Burrell [03:08:16] Go ahead and ask your parents.

Lexi McDonald [03:08:17] Just wander into the kitchen. And that's part of, you know, what makes TikTok great, is being able to, like, take a comment, respond directly to it. So, you know, somebody did say, like, you only have to wear garments in the temple. And I was like, like, that's not true. You have to wear them all the time. And she's like, go ahead and point out in the handbook where it says that. So I'm like, okay, make a video and point out in the handbook where it says that.

John Dehlin [03:08:37] That's awesome.

Lexi McDonald [03:08:38] So, yeah, I mean, it's still so surprising sometimes when they just have no idea. And I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am continually surprised. Or so many Mormons don't know that tithing is a requirement and they act like it's not. And I'm like, honey, what did we go to the same church? So, you know, I'll make videos talking about that.

John Dehlin [03:09:01] Consequences.

Lexi McDonald [03:09:02] Yeah. You know, you have to pay to go to the temple. And if you don't go to the temple, you're not getting to the celestial kingdom. There's a lot of them that just, I mean, and I don't know if they just haven't connected the dots.

John Dehlin [03:09:12] You can't see your own kids get married.

Lexi McDonald [03:09:14] Right.

John Dehlin [03:09:14] If you don't pay your tithe.

Lexi McDonald [03:09:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] You'll be kept out of the temple. So you won't witness your kids own marriage.

Lexi McDonald [03:09:20] Yeah. And a lot of people, I mean, I don't think that they're like, thinking that far ahead a lot of times, especially if they're younger and they're not thinking like, this would prevent me from seeing my child get married 10 years in the future, you know?

Carah Burrell [03:09:32] You know who I think those comments come from? The most, in my opinion are people who are maybe late teens, early 20s or something who have kind of like fallen away from the church a little bit. And they usually preface it by saying, first of all, I'm not even that Mormon. But that's not true. It's like, it's a weird Jack Mormon like phenomenon where they have a really high stake in defending their indoctrination, but not enough to live it. Yeah. Or know it whatsoever. I get, I get. That's where I feel like the most, most comments come from. I don't know what you're.

Lexi McDonald [03:10:03] Yeah, no, I definitely see that. It's either that or like, actually like a lot younger kids which sometimes there's people on Tick tock. They're like 13. Yeah. Even younger. They don't have any idea. Yeah. I'm like, those. If they're that young, like, if I can see from looking at the profile like this person is really young, I'm not going to engage age because, yeah, you know, you're a kid. It's. I get it. It's fine. Just, you know, pat on the head, you're fine. Right. But there are a lot still, you know, even older Mormons that I will get comments from people a lot. Like you said.

Lexi McDonald [03:10:34] Like, I, I haven't even, I'm not even active. And this is not true. And a lot of it sometimes is tithing stuff where I'm like, I don't know, you know, the kind of different lives we have as Mormons. But this is, is in the handbook. This is what the leaders say. This is not something I've just pulled out of my ass. This is very easily provable. And I do, you know, make those kinds of videos to be like, you know, look here.

Carah Burrell [03:11:00] And they might have just grown up in different families where your family was seventh generation. Right. Extremely Mormon. They might have grown up Mormon. But not. Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [03:11:09] But not like super Mormon. Super Mormon.

Carah Burrell [03:11:11] Not super strict.

Lexi McDonald [03:11:12] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:11:12] And so they're like, oh, you don't have to do that. Well, the way I was raised. Raised. Which is pretty much the proper orthodox way to be raised so that you follow all of the questions that you have to get into the temple. All of those things. I did. Exactly. My parents probably. Your parents probably raised you the exact way that a Mormon kid should be raised. And if you do it that way. Yeah, absolutely. You're gonna have to pay your tithing. I don't know what parents raised you, but, like, it kind of depends on the situation in the family. But if you're doing it that way, these are the lessons that I was taught.

Lexi McDonald [03:11:39] I don't know what to do. Yeah. And I try to be like, you know, if you weren't raised super orthodox and like super strict. I'm happy for you. Like, great. Like, I'm sure your life was probably a little bit easier when it comes to that sort of thing, because, oh, my God, it was hard. I'm happy for you. But that doesn't mean that that's not what the church teaches. That doesn't mean that's not like the, you know, this is what the leaders are saying. This is the propaganda they are putting out into the world. This is what they are telling the people that are orthodox because you didn't have that experience or because, you know, your. Your family wasn't as intense about it doesn't mean that it's not the reality for the majority of people that are orthodox Mormons.

Carah Burrell [03:12:22] That's a phenomenon to me. People's argumentation that this did not happen. I'm sure you get those. Exactly. This. Your experience you shared. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Literally, people will say that, that. That I can hear somebody saying this, but because I did not experience it, that is a lie.

Lexi McDonald [03:12:41] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:12:42] No matter. Even if you put up the documentation, still a lie.

John Dehlin [03:12:46] All right.

Lexi McDonald [03:12:47] I can't help you. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:12:49] So, Lexi, just really quickly, I've got a couple more questions, and then we'll. We'll close for today. What are some of the biggest or most popular or most controversial or most interesting videos on YouTube and TikTok that if someone just wants to get a sense for what you've done, what are some of the highlights that you would tell people to go watch? We'll. Maybe we'll put them in the show notes or something.

Lexi McDonald [03:13:10] Okay. On YouTube. My. I think my most popular video is the first one I ever made. Why I left the church and why I'm talking about it. And the production quality is crap. And I have know what I'm doing

John Dehlin [03:13:20] because nobody cares because it's a cool story.

Lexi McDonald [03:13:22] Yeah. But that's, you know, where a lot of people found me. My favorite videos that I've done on YouTube are the ones where I point out contradictions from Mormon leaders. Because for me, that was a big issue with my faith, was seeing the people that are supposed to be God's mouthpieces on the earth directly contradicting each other.

John Dehlin [03:13:43] So some examples.

Lexi McDonald [03:13:44] So. Oh, God, too many.

Carah Burrell [03:13:47] Yeah, there really are too many.

Lexi McDonald [03:13:49] There are a lot. But I mean, I made a couple videos about it where I'll just point out, like this leader. This is on the church website now. And here's what it says. It'll be like what the church believes about physical handicaps or disabilities, things like that. And it'll be like very fluffy and lovey and great. And then I'll say, but here's what. I don't even remember which prophet said about. Yeah, I think it was Harold B. Lee.

Carah Burrell [03:14:15] I made a video on that as well and told I was lying. So, yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [03:14:19] Where they said what.

Lexi McDonald [03:14:20] Where they said that people with disabilities were. Were less valiant in the premortal life and that's why they have disabilities in the.

Carah Burrell [03:14:25] And that book is still sold in Deseret book today. Trust me. I downloaded it from Deseret Books bookstore and put it on screen. People don't believe you. They don't have a vested interest in learning. I don't know.

Lexi McDonald [03:14:36] Yeah, but things like that where I will make like just show directly the contradictions and be like, see that's. If these are profits, they shouldn't be contradicting each other. So those are some of the ones on YouTube that I've done. I've also done a lot of like talking about mission stories because that's just really important to me to highlight what missionaries go through and have gone through and are, you know, going through to this day on TikTok. You know, TikTok is an interesting place. My most viral video ever on TikTok was talking about what soaking is, which is. It's the thing.

Carah Burrell [03:15:13] Classy podcast.

Lexi McDonald [03:15:14] Yeah, Here we go. Thing that a lot of young Mormons do where to get around having sex and to make it not sex. They have sex without moving. They just park it. And that's, that's soaking and that's the thing that.

John Dehlin [03:15:33] Is that a thing? Is that really happening?

Lexi McDonald [03:15:34] It's absolutely 100% a thing.

John Dehlin [03:15:36] Down in Utah County.

Lexi McDonald [03:15:37] Yeah. It's a Provo thing for sure. And a lot of people don't believe that that's real. I've, you know, half the comments on that video are I'm Mormon and I've never heard of this. And I'm over here like, like just say that nobody soaked with you. I believe it till I see definitely happens.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] I'll believe it till I do it.

Lexi McDonald [03:15:52] Yeah, it's, it's, it's a whole.

Carah Burrell [03:15:54] The loophole poop hole thing. But we don't need to get into that.

Lexi McDonald [03:15:59] Oh God.

John Dehlin [03:15:59] Yeah, it's not, it's. If it's anal sex, it's not sex.

Lexi McDonald [03:16:02] Yeah, yeah. Garfield. If it's soaking, it's not sex. Cuz you're not, you're not thrusting so it doesn't count.

Carah Burrell [03:16:10] But.

John Dehlin [03:16:10] And you're saying BYU kids did the do this and Mormon kids do this.

Lexi McDonald [03:16:13] They do. And it's not a thing that like, I mean it's not a thing that they're going to admit to if they're doing it. You know what I mean? But it definitely happens. Most, most, most Mormons don't believe that it's true. But it's, it's the kind of thing you can Google. I mean you can. There's. It's everywhere.

John Dehlin [03:16:29] But that is like talk on that

Lexi McDonald [03:16:32] I did a tick tock on that and it got like 4 or 5 million views. And I was over here thinking all of the like, effort I put into making educational content and this is the one you guys are making. Take off. Very rude girl. Same same.

Carah Burrell [03:16:47] Writing a script for something, really researching it. People just want to hear like the raucous sex stories.

Lexi McDonald [03:16:52] I'm over here, like I read a whole book to make this video and no one watched it. And then I talk about soaking one time and everybody goes nuts. The content that I make on TikTok that I actually think is worth watching and more important than soaking.

The State of Mormonism and the Church's Future

Lexi McDonald [03:17:08] Um, I, I like to talk about, you know, aspects of a cult, indicators for a cult. Um, and I like to point it out in a very non, like, what's the word? I'm not like just being like, yes, absolutely, the Mormon Church is a cult. I like to make it more like this might indicate then you're in a cult. This might indicate that you're in a cult. If any of these things are happening, this might indicate that you're in a cult. And here's where you can learn more about what cults are and that kind of a thing I also like to do. I mean, TikTok, it's a fun platform, but it's hard to cram a lot of information into 60 seconds.

Lexi McDonald [03:17:45] But I will try to do a lot of like just pointing out stuff that prophets have said that's problematic. Pointing out stuff in the Book of Mormon that's problematic. Reading old books from Mormon history, stuff by like Bruce R. McConkie.

Lexi McDonald [03:18:00] Mormons used to really love him. And you know, in the past couple of decades, you bring them up and they cower old just. And any like pre, like 1990s information about the church. I've talked about what goes on in the temple for, you know, Mormons that had never went through, Mormons who were still young, ex Mormons, A lot of people that were never in the church find that really interesting.

Lexi McDonald [03:18:33] Anything about what happens in the temple, the kind of clothes you wear in the temple, what happens before the temple, how I felt in the temple. I like to talk about experiences because I feel like that's relatable for a lot of people.

Lexi McDonald [03:18:46] And that's something that, you know, was helpful for me when I was leaving the church was just hearing how other people felt and realizing I wasn't the only one. I wasn't the only one who went through the temple and thought it feels like I'm in a cult and then scared myself into like you know, mentally shutting down because I didn't want God to smite me. But there were other people that felt that way. I wasn't the only one. But I was too scared to say that out loud now, you know, making content and talking about it and having other people be like, oh, yeah, like totally get that, or oh, my God, yeah, three hours of church is really long.

Lexi McDonald [03:19:17] Like, there's things that you don't want to say as a Mormon because you don't want to be the one that isn't spiritual enough. So that's. That's the kind of content that I like to make on TikTok.

Carah Burrell [03:19:28] It's really good, has nuance, host stamp of approval. It's really, really good stuff. Everyone. If I didn't convince you in my interview to download TikTok, it's really good content.

John Dehlin [03:19:38] Yeah. And I. I've joined the TikTok foray recent listeners. I. I now have a TikTok. Dr. John Dehlin. I have a TikTok thing and. And also Carah's managing warm stories TikTok channel as well. So TikTok's a big deal. Deal, because you can reach way more people with way less effort. That's significant. I mean, that's a big deal.

Lexi McDonald [03:19:58] Yeah. I've really liked how it's opened up a whole new audience of much younger people because I feel like, you know, I see a lot of the young Mormons that have found my content find it through TikTok and then, you know, make their way over to YouTube where they can kind of have more. More descriptive videos where that goes on longer. And I talk more about other things. But I'll see, like, Mormon teens, like, tagging each other in the comments on TikTok because they can do it so quickly and they can just share it with other people. And I feel like, I mean, that's really a way to spread a message really fast to a younger generation that maybe isn't as interested in YouTube, but it's been really great. I mean, I've been on TikTok for like six months, and I have 150,000 followers and millions of views. And so I feel like it's.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] That's harder to do on YouTube.

Lexi McDonald [03:20:48] It's so difficult on YouTube, and it's, you know, I don't have a problem with. I like YouTube a lot and I still am going to continue to do YouTube, but being able to reach a lot more people a lot faster, a lot easier, and a lot younger people, I feel like, is really great.

John Dehlin [03:21:02] And the church is Pooping its pants. Yeah, Right, let's talk about that. All right, let's talk really quickly about, like, the state of Mormonism, because that's one of the big questions I get. Is the church leaving, losing people in droves? Is the church in free fall? You know, how is the church handling social media? I don't even know that the church has much of a TikTok presence right now. I mean, they obviously did the whole three Mormons thing and the Quaker stuff, and, you know, they, they've tried to up their YouTube game, but I'm. I don't think they've really realized yet that TikTok is smacking them. I'll say that gently, but let's do quickly about, like, the state of Mormonism in response to social media. Anything you want to say there?

Lexi McDonald [03:21:43] Well, to be honest with you, I haven't seen a whole lot of Mormon. And here's the thing. I don't, like, seek out Mormon content because I'm not going to be here. Like, I don't want to be that person that, like, responds and makes people upset and, like, whatever. I just make my own content. But from what I've seen, which isn't very much, it seems like a lot of Mormons will, like, make response videos to stuff that is just. They're not, not. They're not getting the whole picture. And if people respond to them, it's like by the thousands, where people can just point out, like, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong.

Lexi McDonald [03:22:14] And then they'll delete their stuff. There was a video that I saw, one of the only, like, Mormon tick tocks that I've actually watched where a girl challenged ex Mormons to actually read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. And, you know, I responded to her and I was like, oh, hey, I did that. And I pointed the vid to the video where I had read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it to see what would happen.

Lexi McDonald [03:22:35] And she never responded. It's. It's the kind of thing where they're just. There's. So I feel like the presence of ex Mormons must be just huge compared to the presence of Mormons on TikTok, because I'm just not seeing a lot of Mormon content, even though I see a lot of ex Mormon content. And I feel like the algorithm should kind of show both. I don't know if you've noticed the same thing or not, that I block.

Carah Burrell [03:22:57] If I find somebody who's trying to Be in like, the apologist mode with me trying to make excuses for the church or they actively make pro Mormon content. I either specifically like, block them and not because I just want to shut down the discussion because I try to be very straightforward, like you were saying earlier about who my content is for. And if it's not for you, it's not for you. And I'm not going to waste one more brain cell arguing with somebody who. Their goal in life is to be an apologist for the church. So that's kind of how. Where I take that attitude. But I was going to ask, what's your approach to that? What's your approach to, like, actually interacting with Mormons online? Do you block them or.

Lexi McDonald [03:23:42] I very, very rarely block people. I've actually had, like, people on TikTok comment and be like, you block all of us on Twitter. And I was like, I have four accounts blocked on Twitter, so are there only four Mormons now? Like, I don't block people that often. I really don't. Unless you were just downright nasty, I'm not gonna block you, probably. I actually really enjoy when people get on my videos and try to make excuses for the church because I feel like I can back what I say up. Yeah, I can pull it all out and I can show you because when I was a Mormon, I was a perfectionist and I read all those stupid conference talks.

Lexi McDonald [03:24:18] I can pull out all the references. I know what I'm saying. I know where I got what I'm saying, and I'm not just pulling it out of my ass. And I like on TikTok, how you can respond directly to those comments. And I can hold up and say, look, here's where it says what I said. I wasn't lying. Do you want to. You want to continue? And usually they don't.

Carah Burrell [03:24:36] They don't.

Lexi McDonald [03:24:37] Because, you know, they'll try to delete their comments and they'll block me. They don't talk to me anymore because it's just so easy for the most part on a lot of them, it's just so easy. And I do like, like to, you know, show that and to show people, like, I. I can back up what I'm saying.

Carah Burrell [03:24:53] Yeah. And sometimes it's people who have, for the first time in their entire life, probably come in contact with a very educated ex Mormon voice and they're hearing things they've never heard before. And not to be mean, but it's people who haven't come in contact with critical thinking skills outside of what their parents have kind of given them as this is your worldview, and they've had and thought critically about this thing, and their only way of handling it is to lash out, to say you're lying, to just shut down. And it's funny that you say, like, yeah, that they. You can show them, but then there's always somebody new to take their place. It's not usually the same person.

Lexi McDonald [03:25:30] It's usually different people. Yeah, yeah, I've. I felt like. And again, I don't like to block people because I enjoy that, you know, kind of just being able to be like, no, look. And they will block me because they don't want to hear it.

Carah Burrell [03:25:45] And, you know, fine with people if it's not.

Lexi McDonald [03:25:47] Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. I don't want to be.

Carah Burrell [03:25:49] If I am giving you a mental health issue. Right.

Lexi McDonald [03:25:52] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:25:52] That you're not ready for.

Lexi McDonald [03:25:53] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:25:53] Please block me.

Lexi McDonald [03:25:54] Yeah. The only time that I really will block people is if I'm like, they're, you know, just going out of their way just to be mean. Like, if they're over here, like, I just want to bully you. And I'm like, hi, I'm. No, no, I'm not going to have you bully me on my own cell phone. Like, no, absolutely not.

Lexi McDonald [03:26:15] But for the most part, like, I really like to keep it open. Like I said, very few accounts that I've ever blocked, and when I do, it's usually for a really good reason. But the Mormons that I have come across on TikTok, a lot of times, it seems like they really just don't know the issues.

Lexi McDonald [03:26:32] And if they do know some of it, they kind of. It usually seems like they take like a kind of fair Mormon stance where it's like they just justify it. And, you know, they don't have a really good answer. They just say, well, it was okay because, like, oh, well, yeah, Joseph Smith married teenagers, but it was okay because of the time period or, you know, it's all right because God. Or, you know, and it's just like, you're not. That's not helpful. You're not helping people. That makes. That's going to push people away, or at least it did for me, because

Carah Burrell [03:27:07] they know instinctually there's certain things we know that are immoral deep down. But our church has given us a good apologetic response, and it's almost like those people are like, well, that's okay because. And then they just stop their critical thinking. They just stop their intuition. They just completely shut down.

John Dehlin [03:27:23] And Luna Lindsay Corbin would tell us that's a technique called thought stopping, which is an actual technique, technique that high demand religions use. They want to get people to stop any thinking that is not edifying for the organization.

Lexi McDonald [03:27:35] Yeah, yeah, understandable. I'm curious how, you know, how the church internally is responding to all of this with Tick Tock. Because I've heard from several people, you know, that the church is really afraid of Tick Tock and of the power that ex Mormons have when they get together in big groups and when we can make these videos that are literally going viral. You know, it's. You get a video that goes like 2 or 3 million views and they're over here like, how do we stop that? How do we stop people from seeing that? How do we stop people from believing that?

Lexi McDonald [03:28:05] And I, I am curious about it, about how they really are reacting internally because you see them, you know, putting out a lot of things like don't believe everything you read on the Internet and look at faith promoting material and if you come across something that's not faith promoting, just scroll down past and all that kind of stuff.

Lexi McDonald [03:28:24] And I feel like with TikTok, there's going to come a point where they're either going to have to proactively, like make an LDS Church TikTok account and try to, you know, flood the app with pro Mormon stuff or they're going to have to tell the members. Maybe that's. Yeah, not the kind of platform that we want to be on.

John Dehlin [03:28:40] When I first jumped on TikTok, there were all these seminary and institute teachers using TikTok and like filming. I don't know if you've seen these, but like, like making little object lessons and like having their students be parts of, of like lessons and filming it on Tick Tock and sharing it, like charismatic, funny John, by the way, type seminary and institute teachers leveraging TikTok and then sharing what they're doing on TikTok. And I'm thinking, wow, that's, that's an interesting approach, getting all your kids on TikTok.

Lexi McDonald [03:29:09] Well, and I can see them definitely doing that, but I feel like the church itself would want to like take control of that and do it all at once and try to make it, you know, flood the app with Mormon stuff and make it good.

John Dehlin [03:29:21] Just introducing your Mormon kids to TikTok seems like a disastrous.

Lexi McDonald [03:29:26] Oh yeah, well, I don't know. Even if you wanted to look at like, if you look on TikTok, you can search hashtags and see how many views hashtags have. So you can search like ex Mormon. How many views does ex Mormon have versus Mormon?

John Dehlin [03:29:37] Tens of millions, right?

Lexi McDonald [03:29:38] Yeah, like millions and millions. So, I mean, it's, it's out there and it's just growing. And from, from starting TikTok, I've done interviews on like, several different magazines. I've got like a big one coming out soon that I guess I'm not going to talk about yet because it's not out yet, but, like, it, it's, it's growing.

John Dehlin [03:29:57] You're saying media people are reaching out to you.

Carah Burrell [03:29:59] Yeah, people are taking notice that I'm sure you get the same comments I do. This is going to be like a, hey, girl, let's talk about all the comments we get. Just people like, I can't believe I'm on ex Mormon TikTok. I have nothing to do with Mormonism, but this is fascinating. So I think journalists have reached out to Lexi. They reached out to me just because it's kind of interesting that, like, people who I wouldn't care about, like, extrahova witness tech talk necessarily, besides just being interested in cults or whatever, but, like, so many people who have no relation to Mormonism.

Lexi McDonald [03:30:29] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:30:29] Interested and like, follow along to every little thing.

Lexi McDonald [03:30:32] Yeah, it's interesting. I've noticed the same thing on get comments from people that are like, I don't know anything about Mormonism, but I'm here for ex Mormon TikTok and I'm gonna stay. And I'm like, really? Well, thanks for being here. You know, a lot of people, I've got emails from people that have never even been religious. They just find it fascinating. And I get that. You know, after leaving the church, I started like, deep diving into cults and, you know, rabbit hole of cult stuff. Did a lot of like, podcasts.

Carah Burrell [03:30:57] And those are the best people, by the way. They're so empathetic. They understand, they've studied out cults that maybe were never even Mormon and they're still really interested in like, you go, girl. Like, congratulations.

Lexi McDonald [03:31:08] I feel like a lot of ex Jehovah's Witnesses really get it. Like, we're on such the same level on a lot of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I haven't watched a lot of ex Jehovah's witness content on TikTok, but the stuff I've watched on YouTube and stuff, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, we get each other. Like, we. There's a lot of things that we can just totally relate on. And, And I mean, that's great. That's great that they're you know, there to be a part of it. And it's, it is interesting how many people watch the videos that are not Mormon, never have been Mormon.

Lexi McDonald [03:31:38] Maybe we're in a cult, maybe we're religious at some point, but, I mean, really feels like they're all coming together for the same sort of thing. And I just, I love being able to share that with other people and to be like, you know, I'm glad that you're interested in what, what my life was like and what a Mormon's life is like. And that's one of the things that when I make a video, you know, I make videos that I'm like, this is specifically for Mormon, like ex Mormons. This is a video of me talking about, like, how Mormon activities are boring. That's not for anyone else except ex Mormons.

Lexi McDonald [03:32:14] That's for us to laugh about. But then I'll make other content where I'm like, I want to talk about how, how a Mormon child's testimony sounds. I want to talk about what they whisper in your ear when you're 2 and 3 years old. That's for everybody else. That's for everyone else to hear. That has nothing to do with Mormonism.

Carah Burrell [03:32:32] The broader implications of the. What's the word I'm looking for here? I don't want to say cultiness, but yeah, the broader implications of what it's being like.

John Dehlin [03:32:42] Undo influence.

Carah Burrell [03:32:43] Yeah. To have ideas pumped into your head since you're a child and having. There are people who have empathy for it and there's just people who straight up don't. And I just like to say, like some empathy, these centers and people's brains are broken and they see there's literally nothing wrong with that. And it's like, I can't force you to acknowledge how bad this is.

Lexi McDonald [03:33:01] Yeah, yeah, I totally.

John Dehlin [03:33:04] So is the, Is the Mormon Church in trouble with kind of your feet on the ground you're being plugged into, you know, you being one of the more prominent and successful voices in kind of the ex Mormon, post Mormon community. Is the Mormon Church in trouble?

Lexi McDonald [03:33:21] I don't want to say that directly. It is. I just like, from, from my perspective, I, I, you know, I feel like the church has literally billions of dollars that they can pump into propaganda.

John Dehlin [03:33:32] Hundreds of billions.

Lexi McDonald [03:33:33] Yeah, I mean, they can, they're over here making movies. They're over here magazines, books, articles. They advertise on my videos constantly. Their movies and stuff like, that's. They, they have the ability, the power and the money to do that.

John Dehlin [03:33:50] Search Engine optimization, where, oh yeah, I hear they pay tens of millions of dollars a year to influence, you know, Google searches so that their links rise to the top in Google searches and ours collectively all go to the bottom.

Lexi McDonald [03:34:04] Yeah. And so I'm like, you know, from my perspective, they are over here pumping propaganda, just billions of dollars of propaganda. Ex Mormons, we're just voices. We're just people. We're not millionaires. We don't have money to, you know, go nuts on this stuff. But we do have our voices. And on TikTok especially, being able to use our voices and combat all that propaganda, like we have power in that way. And you know, when somebody like me or you or Carah or anybody, like, we become a single person that can put out a video that gets millions of views that could be, you know, it's dangerous for the church in the way that, you know, they, they're over here worried they're going to lose people.

Lexi McDonald [03:34:52] Because if they lose people, they lose money and influence. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, I don't want to say like, oh, like my, my content is threat to the church or anything. It's like, you know, first of all, if your church is true, I'm not a threat to you at all.

Carah Burrell [03:35:08] Same.

Lexi McDonald [03:35:08] So don't worry about it, honey. But like, I, I do think that as ex Mormons, making content, using our voices, sharing our stories is not good for the church in a way that is great for the whole world.

Carah Burrell [03:35:27] It's not our fault the Internet exists.

Lexi McDonald [03:35:29] Right. Just using it, I think, think that, you know, I think that like most of what I'm trying to, I'm trying to put out like positive vibes. You know, I'm like, I'm like trying to make positive videos. I'm trying to help people. I'm not here trying to tear down Mormonism. I'm, I'm trying to help people that are in it that are maybe doubting. I'm trying to help people that have left that are struggling. Those are the people that I'm reaching out to. And so, you know, if the church wants us to not exist or to not make videos or they want Mormons to avoid us, I'm like, you know what, what?

Lexi McDonald [03:35:59] Okay, take, take the ones that are happy, but like the ones that are struggling or need help, like, come to tick tock. Come, come to be a part of our community. Grow with us, learn with us, and change your life for the better be. You know, I, I just feel like we might be just a few voices, but on, on platforms that give us the ability to talk to a lot of people. We do have a lot of power.

John Dehlin [03:36:26] Yeah. And honestly, if the church would just fully educate all its members about his problematic history and do everything it can to reverse engineer all the cult like behaviors, all the stuff Luna Lindsay Corbin talks about that Steve Hassan talks about just become un cult like in every possible way, then that eviscerates and neuters any of our content. Because what are we going to talk about if those two things happen? If we can't talk about church history anymore because all the Mormons yawn at that because they know it all, and if we can't talk about ways that the church is cult like, then that dries up.

Carah Burrell [03:37:06] I'll tell you what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about logical fallacies and critical thinking skills. Because no matter how much, like she was saying earlier with Fair Mormon, no matter how much you could inoculate the Mormon Church's best answers, seriously, you're still like, if you have a critical thinking skills, you have empathy, you understand the way logical fallacies work, they're still not good enough. And there's always going to be people that are going to just fall through the cracks of an untrue organization and they're going to need picking up and like, darn it, we're going to be here for you.

Lexi McDonald [03:37:35] Yeah. And it's like even if the Mormon Church changes and you know, if, if they become not so cult, like if they, if they start to tell the truth, if they apologize for the past, if they change their ways, it's like that's, the Mormon Church isn't the only organization that does these things. This is still happening in dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of other places where, you know, our voices can be heard and can be important. And I feel like, you know, we, we might just be one little tiny, you know, facet of it because it's like Mormons, 16 million, maybe. That's tiny. That's a tiny percentage.

John Dehlin [03:38:09] Five active, only 4 or 5 million active.

Lexi McDonald [03:38:11] And so then you've got like, okay, that's such a small percentage of the population, but there are so many organizations like this. So even if the Mormon Church changes, I think it's still important to talk about what they have done. Yeah. And where, where are we going from here? Are we going to change?

Carah Burrell [03:38:28] That's a great point.

Misogyny in Mormonism and Women's Experiences

John Dehlin [03:38:30] Let me ask really quickly and both of you can answer. You know, there is this problem of misogyny within Mormonism and men in particular. But, but everyone Just not always behaving the way they should. And particularly on the Internet. Is there anything you want to say about being a woman social media influencer in the Mormon and ex Mormon communities? And if there's any coaching for men on how they need to behave better, be more respectful, be less abusive or whatever, Anything you want to say about being a woman in the space and coaching for men or women on how to behave better.

Lexi McDonald [03:39:10] Actually, would Carah go first on this one?

Carah Burrell [03:39:12] Okay, I was gonna ask. I legit was about to say no comment, but you're the guest. I was drinking something. It's hard for me to make it into a man versus a man woman type of issue because my only thoughts and advice are just, just the general, like, be kind, be respectful, treat people how you'd want to be treated.

Carah Burrell [03:39:34] Whether that comes from a man or woman. I haven't had. I can't. I can't part. I can't think of a particular experience right now off the top of my head, but I know there are a lot of women in the Tick Tock space.

Carah Burrell [03:39:49] I'm gonna use that word generally because I think we know the kind of a little bit of a. Can we say a show that went on, on Tick Tock a couple months ago or a month ago. So I would just encourage one and everyone in whatever space to be respectful and forming as many positive lines of open communication and consent as humanly possible.

Carah Burrell [03:40:17] Because we come from a very, very conservative, misogynistic church. I don't think misogynistic is a word I'm gonna say church filled with misogyny. And it isn't a surprise. Let's just say that there is going to be some leftovers after that. So I try to be as understanding and patient with people as we kind of, you know, are all working on undoing some of the bad things that we were taught together.

Lexi McDonald [03:40:46] That's what I'll say. I really love that, that, love what we said. I. I kind of want to just repeat sort of that same thing. I personally feel like I've been really lucky in that my experience within the ex Mormon community has been really positive from every gender of person.

Lexi McDonald [03:41:06] But I have talked to a lot of people that that's just not how it's been for them. And it makes me really upset. I feel like, you know, my biggest advice for men would be to, if it even might be creepy, don't do it. Just don't, don't go there.

Lexi McDonald [03:41:23] And I really hope that there are ex Mormon women who are willing and able to share their voice because it kind of is a male dominated space. And I think that adding diversity and, and adding our voices as important voices who have been sort of silenced by the way the church is for a number of years is really important.

Lexi McDonald [03:41:53] And again, just like all of us can always do better with empathy and kindness and understanding and forgiveness and just being, being careful with our words and being careful with the things we say.

Carah Burrell [03:42:08] Right on, right on. Love it.

Beliefs, Spirituality, and Morality After Mormonism

John Dehlin [03:42:12] All right, well, I, I definitely love to end, you know, there's one track of like, what do you believe now? You know, you as a human being, God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, Religion, faith. Let's start there. Anything you want to share about how your beliefs in life, religious view, world perspective, where it stands today.

Lexi McDonald [03:42:37] After I left the church, I never wanted to believe anything without evidence ever again. And so I, I kept doing research from there. And for me and my husband and my family, we landed on agnostic atheism. We don't have any sort of supernatural beliefs and the things that we believe and think, we try to follow evidence.

Lexi McDonald [03:43:01] I just never want to be, you know, fooled again. I don't want to accept things without evidence anymore. And as far as like our belief system, we're humanists, we're secular, and I feel like that has been just wonderful for us. A lot of people seem to think that being an atheist must be like a really sad existence. And for us it's been really freeing and really positive and it's encouraged us to enjoy our lives to the fullest way more and to enjoy the time that we have and to just love stronger and feel stronger and, and have a lot more empathy for people and a lot more, A lot more understanding for the decisions that people make and why.

Lexi McDonald [03:43:55] And I feel like, you know, I, I don't, I don't like to act like I have all the answers because I absolutely don't. I still have so many questions. But I think that when I left the church, a lot of what really helped me feel better when I was in that sort of tumultuous time in my life was searching and learning and getting educated because I felt like it gave me something to do, something to focus on and something that was absolutely a positive thing. Like it's always good to be learning and if there's, you know, something out there that I don't have the answer to, I want to know about it. And so that's where I'm at right now. I'm an atheist and I'm really happy about it.

John Dehlin [03:44:39] I see a lot of Christians, ex Mormon Christians or just evangelical Christians that like to say, hey, ex Mormons, just because you stop believing in Mormonism, why'd you have to throw Jesus out? What's your response to that?

Lexi McDonald [03:44:53] I get the exact comment, don't throw the baby out with the bath water probably like 40,000 times a week. And my response to that is I didn't just throw Jesus out. I didn't just decide, oh, the church isn't true. I don't believe in Jesus at all anymore. When I first left the church for a few weeks after, I was still in a state of like learning and growing and changing and wanting to know. I considered myself a Christian, non denominational Christian for the first little while after I left and, but I was still in that like, mindset of like, there's no way that I'm just going to take anybody's word for it ever again because my, my family raised me this way and I just went along with it it.

Lexi McDonald [03:45:39] And I don't want to fall into that kind of a trap again where I just believe it because the people around me did or because a book says it. I want to, you know, know for sure if it's true. And for me, you know, I have landed on evidence is the most important thing to me because it's, it's solid, it's reliable and if I am presented with new information, I'm 100% willing to change my mind. And I'm really happy with that because that's something that as a Mormon, I didn't have.

Lexi McDonald [03:46:12] I didn't have the ability to change my mind. It was already made up for me. And you know, every time I had anything that maybe would have been sort of a testimony changer, I came back to, well, the church is true, so it doesn't matter. And I'm, I don't want to do that ever again. So to the people that, you know, want me to be a Christian because they're a Christian and they know they're right, none of us have all the answers and I'm just following what, you know, the evidence is showing me and that's where I'm at. And I'm willing to change my mind.

John Dehlin [03:46:46] And if somebody says, but wait, there's a Bible, there's a Jerusalem there, there probably was a historical Jesus, there are the papyrus, the whatever, the gospels that got written. So there is evidence.

Lexi McDonald [03:46:57] I mean, the Bible doesn't prove the Bible, so we're not going to go into that.

John Dehlin [03:47:04] All right, how about spirituality? Is spirituality important to you? And if so, what does that mean to you?

Lexi McDonald [03:47:11] I feel like a lot of people ask me about that and it, I, I mean, I know that there's. Spirituality means different things to different people. For me, it's not something that is important to me in my life because, and this might just be because of my upbringing. Spirituality to me always points to supernatural and to, you know, the belief system and things like that, which is something I just don't have.

Lexi McDonald [03:47:35] And I like to come back to just, you know, if I want to have a spiritual experience for me, and kind of the way I think that people think about it apart, you know, secular, secular wise for me is like just being out of nature and taking time to just sort of meditate and like be quiet for a while and sort of just feel like, feel like natural. Like this is just me. I'm a little speck on a little speck in a big space. And for me that's kind of like again, I'm not super into like the spirituality part of it. And that probably is just, just sort of remaining from my Mormon upbringing.

Lexi McDonald [03:48:29] But that for me, I guess, is as close as I would get to spirituality, is just thinking about my small little place in the universe.

John Dehlin [03:48:42] There's this conditioning we've all been subjected to that says you can't be a moral person. Why would you even want to be a moral person without a church? Which then leads to this fear that if you leave the church, you're going to become a drug addict or an alcoholic or a sex worker or lie or cheat or cheat on your spouse or all the immoral things that we're all taught. How have you reassembled a morality without a belief in God or in Jesus?

Lexi McDonald [03:49:11] Yeah, I feel like the moral system I had within the church is so much different than what I would call like moral things now because it's so subjective to what you believe. And the things that I used to believe were moral or immoral can be like, really?

Lexi McDonald [03:49:30] I look at now and I think that's just bizarre. You know, I make videos where I talk about, you know, within the Mormon Church, you're not allowed to swear or drink coffee or drink tea or get a tattoo. And people will comment things like, well, these are just good morals. This isn't weird, this is just good morals. All Christians do this. And I'm like, I'm sorry, but on what, what? Like, where did you decide that not drinking coffee makes you a moral person? Where does that, you know, where does.

Lexi McDonald [03:49:57] I didn't mention anything about kindness or empathy or Forgiving people or charity or love. I just listed all the things you weren't allowed to do. That, to me, isn't morality. Morality is much bigger and much more important than the clothes you wear or the people you have sex with or the things you drink.

Lexi McDonald [03:50:20] And so my moral system is much, much different. Much. It's like a. It's a completely different world, but a much better one, because I feel like the things that I'm avoiding and the things that I'm trying to do are so much more important than the things I was trying to avoid and the things I was trying to do when I was a Mormon. It's not about drinking tea anymore. It's about being a good human being.

John Dehlin [03:50:48] Some people say life, if life, and it's usually people that are really depressed or sad or anxious, but they'll say, man, life's too hard. If there's not God in an afterlife, I'm not sure I even want to be alive. Or another flavor of that is why even bother? If. If the church isn't true, if there's not a God, then why even bother living? What's the point? Yeah.

Lexi McDonald [03:51:11] And I think that comes down to people being so conditioned to believe that there has to be a purpose, that there's a bigger purpose than us, that there's this one great purpose of life that we all need to be working towards. And if you, you know, if you don't have that, if you don't have God, if you don't have Jesus, then what's your purpose? And for them, I would say that the purpose in my life is the purpose I give myself is not the one that was assigned to me at birth, before I even could talk. I. My purpose is the one that I give myself. And for me, that's, you know, broad, and it ranges a lot of things. And it's living my life in a way that makes me happy, that makes me healthy, that is helping people, and that is, in general, a positive existence.

John Dehlin [03:52:04] Yeah. Okay. There's a saying that wickedness never was happiness in Mormonism. And I have to think. And literally, the worst possible state of a Mormon, according to Mormonism, isn't being a pedophile, it isn't being a murderer, isn't being an adulterer.

John Dehlin [03:52:25] It's being a son of perdition or a daughter of perdition, which is someone who had the light and then lost it. Someone who believed and then actively is trying to take others out of the church. So I think it's probably not stretching it to say that we Three, meet the pinnacle of evil from. From a Mormon perspective. And having said that, then if you couple that with the Mormon teaching that wickedness, which we are the most wicked, never was happiness, then I'd ask you, are you happy?

John Dehlin [03:52:57] And if so, how does that, how do you square that with the Mormon teaching that you should be the most miserable, wretched, unhappy person alive? Or are you just deluded?

Lexi McDonald [03:53:07] Yeah, it's interesting because I do genuinely feel like I've never been happier in my entire life than I am today. And that's even with, like, a lot of crazy stuff that's happened in the last year. My life is so good and I feel so lucky and so privileged to have the life that I have and the family that I have. And, you know, I. I know that Mormons will hear that and just think that this is temporary happiness. You don't have true joy because you can't have true joy without the gospel.

Lexi McDonald [03:53:42] I was never this happy when I was in the church. I never had this amount of fulfillment and this amount of joy. And it is a really sad thing about the church and a sad consequence of their indoctrination that they believe that you can't be happy if you leave and that you are going to be miserable and Satan is dragging you down and that the, you know, the happiness that they see us having isn't real.

Lexi McDonald [03:54:15] And it, you know, there's nothing I could really say to convince them differently except just living my life and being happy and hoping that one day, you know, maybe they'll change their mind. But this is great. It's a great life and I'm really happy.

John Dehlin [03:54:31] What makes it so great?

Lexi McDonald [03:54:32] I finally, like, get to just be myself as a person without an identity that was forced on me. And I get to make my own choices because I want to, not because they're holding, you know, the. The threat of hell or the reward of heaven over my head. The choices I make now are all because I want to.

Lexi McDonald [03:54:55] Um. And it's the same thing with my kids. I feel like I get to raise them to be whoever they want to be and to, you know, do whatever makes them happy without this, you know, well, there's so many things that you can't do or so many people such, you know, a wide range of, you can't be this, you can't do this, you can't feel this, you can't, you can't, you can't. And now it's just, you know, do what makes you happy, live a good life, be a happy person, and I get to model that for them. And it's just indescribably great.

Carah Burrell [03:55:27] There's this saying in, I think Jesus says it in the New Testament somewhere about, to know if a principle is true, you need to live it. And it sounds like, from wrapping up your whole story, that you lived those principles of what the Gospel told you to do, and it left you with so much depression and anxiety. And it's difficult for Mormons to hear that ex Mormons are happy, but we lived it. It just sounds like you're the best authority of your life to know that you tried one and then you tried the other, and you know which one brings you more happiness.

Lexi McDonald [03:55:59] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:55:59] Who's to say?

Lexi McDonald [03:56:00] What's.

Carah Burrell [03:56:01] What's wrong with that?

Lexi McDonald [03:56:01] Well, and. And the thing that's interesting is, like, I'm so happy even though I left. You know, leaving was hard, and I had to completely, like, like, figure out who I was because my whole identity before was Mormon, and I had to start from the bottom and, like, figure out what I believe and what I want to do with my life and what my purpose is. And I still have family members that, you know, I have a really strained relationship with, and that's difficult. But even through all of that, my life is still so much better, and I'm still so much happier than I was when I was a Mormon. And. And, you know, that's just. It's a beautiful life.

Carah Burrell [03:56:39] And it comes down to you get to be in charge of your own brain. You get to have the authenticity that maybe you didn't have because you had a religion handed to you from birth. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. From birth. You know, what is this religion that I'm believing in? If it's something that has always been occupying my brain and bouncing around, and

Lexi McDonald [03:56:58] it sucks to they give you that identity, you know, like, they. They give you. This is who you were in the premortal life. They even, like, give you the patriarchal blessing, which is, this is who you were before.

Carah Burrell [03:57:12] This is who you're going to be.

Lexi McDonald [03:57:13] This is who you're going to be.

John Dehlin [03:57:14] They rename you.

Lexi McDonald [03:57:15] Yeah. This is what's going to happen. This is your destiny. This is what you need to be working towards. And I mean, you don't have a choice. That's. That's just given to you. And they might say, like, oh, we have agency. Not really. We don't really have agency. We have. Have an identity given to us and a set of rules given to us and a set of guidelines. You need to follow. And if you don't, bad things are going to happen to you. But you have a choice. But this is what's going to happen in the end anyway. So being able to make my own choices and really, truly just. It's all because I want to and not because they told me I had to.

Carah Burrell [03:57:53] And know that there's nothing that you're not worthy of.

Lexi McDonald [03:57:55] Right, Exactly.

Carah Burrell [03:57:55] You want to explain your shirt at all?

Lexi McDonald [03:57:57] Yeah, it's just worthy because I. Merch that you offer. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:58:03] Did you design it?

Lexi McDonald [03:58:04] I did. Oh yeah, I made it. Part of, the most important part of my channel for me is just having people. I, I, I really dislike the church's, I guess, their focus on worthiness. You have to be worthy to enter the temple. You have to, to follow all these commandments or you're not worthy. You have to wear modest clothing or if you're not worthy. And I, when I started doing my YouTube channel and stuff, one of the things that I liked to keep in mind was that there's nothing that we as human beings aren't worthy of. And so when I decided to do merch, I wanted to make a shirt that kind of reflected that in a simple way.

John Dehlin [03:58:44] So, so where do people hot where and how do people get your merch?

Lexi McDonald [03:58:48] If they, like, go to my YouTube channel, it shows up, up on the bottom of videos and like in the descriptions and stuff. It's like a spreadshirt shop.

John Dehlin [03:58:56] And you've got different shirts or hats or mugs.

Lexi McDonald [03:58:59] Yeah, there's like, you know, shirts and hats and mugs and bags and masks and bottles and all that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [03:59:07] So I'm a huge believer, like for the church to be able to do what it does and to have so much influence, it spends, it takes in billions and spends billions a year. And then there's just like this ragtag group of us that are, that are trying to provide information and support. So I'm a huge believer in sustainability, of creators and of content providers and in supporting. So how can people support you if

Lexi McDonald [03:59:40] they go follow my YouTube channel, subscribe or follow me TikTok. Just having people that are there supporting and so following you, following along. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:59:50] You have a Patreon though, right?

Lexi McDonald [03:59:51] I do have a Patreon, yeah. It's just a place where people can go to support if they, you know, want to give like a couple bucks a month or something to support what I'm doing.

John Dehlin [04:00:00] That's xmlix.

Lexi McDonald [04:00:01] Yeah. And it's, I mean, I never try, I try to never just Be like, everybody should be a patron or something. It's just something I have for people that want to. And it, you know, there's like extra, extra perks that come along with it, like getting to watch videos before everybody else or getting behind the scenes access to information. And I like to do zoom calls with my patrons so that like, I can interact with them face to face or, you know, not face to face, but electronic screen to electronic screen and actually get to know them like, you know, more one on one. So that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [04:00:31] I can just say I would not still be doing Mormon stories 16 years in without financial support. And I just want listeners to know if you like Carah and if you like Zelf and if you like, I mean, nuance. Oh, sorry. If you like Zelf, if you like Exmo Lex, support them. Support Exmo Lex, you're here. If you don't financially support Exmo Lex, start now because that's going to make it more likely that, that she and others will be able to continue doing that work. And when people, you know, it's time, it's money, it's effort, there's opportunity, cost of things that, that people, you know, could be doing or need to be doing. And so if we don't support our creators, they go away quicker than they normally would. So support Xmolex, is what I'm saying.

Lexi McDonald [04:01:13] Well, thanks, I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of people don't, you know, and then the people that are upset about it, the Mormons that get mad about it, like, oh, you make money from it. I'm like, I really don't make very much money from it. I pour a lot of what I make back into trying to make the production quality better or, you know, just do a better job of what I'm doing, reach more people, that kind of a thing. And, you know, it is a lot of work. And I don't. I think that a lot of people think it's just talking to a camera when it's a lot more than that.

Lexi McDonald [04:01:40] It's a lot of time. But really I just want to get the message to as many people who might need it as possible. Because I was once at that point where I really needed it and it was there because of things like Mormon stories, podcast and Zelf on the Shelf. They existed, they were there for me when I needed them. And so I don't know, following along, just like subscribing and supporting and being there is just a huge help because, like every time you click like on a video, it Might not seem like a big deal, but it's helping boost that video in the algorithm so that more people can see it.

John Dehlin [04:02:17] Or comment.

Lexi McDonald [04:02:18] Yeah, or comment. Any of those types of things are much bigger help than I think people might think they are. They might think it's not a big deal, but it really does help help, and it helps spread that video to more people. So if the message that you're hearing is something that you like, you should share it. And even if you can't share it because maybe, you know, your family would be upset or something, then just click, like, do something to interact with the video.

John Dehlin [04:02:42] Yeah. And on YouTube and TikTok, you can have an anonymous identity, and. And that makes it so you're not as compromised as you might be on Facebook.

Lexi McDonald [04:02:51] Yeah, well, I do. I do know still, some people that, you know, they. They won't like, like videos or comment or subscribe to videos because they're afraid that, like, oh, what if my family that I live with sees that I've subscribed to a certain channel? Which is totally understandable, too. But for the people that can, any. Any type of, like, interaction is super helpful for a content creator.

Advice for Aspiring Creators and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [04:03:13] All right, well, I think it's time to wrap up maybe, and maybe for us to go have lunch. But I want to end with, you know, there are listeners and viewers out there that are struggling in a faith crisis, maybe struggling in their marriage, struggling with, you know, extended family with their own worldview, or there are, like, people that have processed it all or processing it who are thinking about maybe becoming a creator. I want you to talk to both people, people that are in the struggle. Any advice for people in the struggle, and then any advice for that young person or old person or someone in between who's thinking about being a creator

Lexi McDonald [04:03:50] for the person that might be going through it right now that's really struggling. It gets better. It gets so much better. It can be really, really difficult at the beginning when you feel like, you know, your whole life is falling apart or you're questioning your reality or you've been lied to. I completely understand how difficult that is. But I would say just hold on. Keep learning. Keep going. Build that community. Find a group of people that can empathize with you and you can bounce ideas off of, and that might really, really help. For me, it was so helpful to find a big group of ex Mormons and become friends with them, because they were just there for me when I felt like I had no one else.

John Dehlin [04:04:35] That's Facebook, Reddit.

Lexi McDonald [04:04:36] Facebook, Reddit, TikTok I mean, just being, you know, like, if you were to subscribe to a YouTube channel that you really liked and be in the comments and get to know the people there, I mean, even if it's just by a screen name, I swear to God, that was so helpful and so important to me on my journey.

Lexi McDonald [04:04:56] And for anybody that maybe wants to try their hand at making content about it, I think that you should absolutely do it. It's not easy. And sometimes, you know, sometimes it's difficult with the comments that you get or with your family because it's important to them and they're worried about, you know, know, the way that Satan has influenced you.

Lexi McDonald [04:05:14] But at least for me, and I feel like, you know, this is different for everybody in every position. If it's not, like, a safe thing for you to do, or if you feel like it wouldn't be good for your mental health, then, of course, don't. But there are so many spaces where we still need to hear from more ex Mormons for more stories, because all of us have a different story. Some of us were more, you know, entrenched in it and more like really strict parents or really orthodox beliefs and then others who maybe weren't that way, but they still went through a lot of really difficult things.

Lexi McDonald [04:05:43] Sharing your mission story is a huge one. I feel like so many missionaries could have been helped by hearing more about how difficult a mission could be because the church pumps out propaganda about how great missions are and how much it's going to change your life.

Lexi McDonald [04:05:59] So even if it's as simple as maybe not making a YouTube channel or something, even if it's just going on your Facebook and writing out your story or. Or sharing that with just your friends and family or anything like that, going on Reddit and writing it anonymously if you're scared to do it, you know, around people that you know, sharing your story.

Lexi McDonald [04:06:19] Sharing our stories is what gives us power. The church has all the money and power they could ever want. But us building a community, us sharing our stories is what is going to help other people in the future. It's what's helping people today.

John Dehlin [04:06:35] Beautiful.

Carah Burrell [04:06:36] Right on.

John Dehlin [04:06:38] All right, well, Ex Molex Lexi McDonald, it's been so fun to have you in the studio. Thank you for coming and thank you for sharing vulnerably your story. But most importantly, thank you for all your work to help wake people up and help people through hard stuff and, you know, for paying forward all the good things that you experience and just trying to be a. A part of the Solution. Thank you so much for all your work.

Lexi McDonald [04:07:04] Well, thank you for having me. It's still kind of surreal to be here, just like sitting here thinking about where I was two and a half years ago and now being here in the studio two and a half years, that's nothing. It's crazy though, like, just the thought of it. And I really appreciate the opportunity to tell my story to more people.

John Dehlin [04:07:22] I mean, it's partly just the testament to the power of social media that two and a half years ago you were a little literally just having a faith crisis. And within two and a half years, you're one of the most prominent, well known and influential influence and influencers in the post Mormon space. There's a democratization element to that that I think is amazing.

Lexi McDonald [04:07:40] Yeah. Kind of gives me anxiety just to think about it.

John Dehlin [04:07:43] No pressure. No pressure. Well, tonight we're gonna have some of your fans and listeners and supporters and friends come. Maybe we'll do a Q and A. There's maybe not. I don't know, I'm a little tired, but we'll see. But anyway, it's going to be fun to have you there. But anyway, thank you so much, Lexi. You're amazing and keep up the good work.

Lexi McDonald [04:08:00] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [04:08:02] And Carah Nuanceo, it's always fun to have you. Thanks so much for joining us today and for all your work.

Carah Burrell [04:08:07] I'm glad I was here because, Lexi, wow, could 99 of the things you said, I was like exactly how I feel. Exactly, exactly. So I'm sure there's going to be tons of listeners who are going to really resonate with that.

John Dehlin [04:08:19] Well, thanks for your help, Carah, with the production and everything. All right, well, listeners, thanks so much for joining us. This has been fun. We do this because of your support. So thanks to everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation and the Mormon Stories. We couldn't do it without you. Thank you for. If you value this programming, if you want to see it continue and you're not a supporter, please do consider supporting Lexi, supporting NuanceHoe and supporting the Open Source Foundation.

Closing Thanks and Support for Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [04:08:47] We, less than 1 out of a thousand of our listeners or viewers actually contribute. And there's always people that move on, that lose interest, that stop donating, that run on financial hard times. And so we're always losing support. So if you want to, if you value this content and. Or you want to see it continue, please do become a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org, click on the donate button. 10 bucks a month, whatever you can afford.

John Dehlin [04:09:14] We're financially transparent. Every dollar goes to the cause and we're just going to keep creating and supporting content until we no longer get your support. So thank you for your support. Please support us if you don't. And if you have ideas on other people you want us to interview.

John Dehlin [04:09:32] Feedback. We love your feedback. Go to mormonstoriesmail.com email us and let us know anything you want to let us know. And of course, follow us and like us on all the social medias. Check out our new Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok account that cares helping us with. Check out I've got a new one. Dr. John Dehlin TikTok account. Follow us there, become part of the communities there. And again, follow us and like us on YouTube and on Facebook and give us positive reviews. All that stuff really makes a difference. And then share with whoever you can in private or in public, whatever. Share it makes a big difference.

John Dehlin [04:10:06] And then most importantly, just keep being good to each other. Love each other, be more kind, be more supportive. Follow the truth wherever it leads. Become a creator if you feel called to do that. And let's just live big, bright, beautiful Mormon and post Mormon lives. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Thanks, Lexi.

Lexi McDonald [04:10:26] Thanks, Lexi. Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:10:27] All right.

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