Introduction and Guest Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 5, 2020, and I'm so incredibly thrilled for today's interview. I might be guilty of hyperbole because I say that almost every time I do an interview, but today is going to be what I think is an epic, groundbreaking interview. The likes that you've only seen a few times on Mormon Stories Podcast. Today we're interviewing Matthew L. Harris, who is an amazing Mormon Studies Mormon history scholar. I think he's at the University of Colorado at. Remind me, Matt.

Matt Harris [00:00:42] Colorado State University, Pueblo.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] Colorado State Pueblo. That's right, Colorado State Pueblo. But this is a phenomenal book. It's called Watchmen on the Tower, Ezra Tap Benson and the Making of the Mormon Rite. I stayed up till 5am this morning finishing this book. I've read it cover to cover, including the forward and the afterward. The amount of notes I have are, are insane. And this is personal for me for so many reasons. I am a cousin of Ezra Tap Benson, so my grandmother, Karma Benson Parkinson was, was like very close cousins with Ezra Benson. She, she grew up in Franklin and Preston, Idaho, and I'm a Benson if we go far enough back. And so I met Ezra Tab Benson when he came to Houston as a prophet when I was growing up as a boy. And I used to super love Ezra Tap Benson before I grew kind of frustrated with him at byu. But he is one of the most important president, prophets and apostles in Mormon church history. And this book does a phenomenal job exploring why. And so we are going to dig into this amazing book today. And we are so lucky to have Dr. Matt Harris with us to talk about the book. Matt Harris, welcome, welcome, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Matt Harris [00:02:09] Thanks, John. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Okay, so I'll just say this, that my very first Mormon Stories interview of all time was with Greg Prince. And I interviewed him talking about a book that was new at the time, which was David O. McKay and the rise of Modern Mormonism. We've had Greg Prince on several times, but. But I've really valued Greg Prince's history just because he talks about so many of the things I care about, which is 20th century Mormon history. You know, the bureau, the bureaucracies, the politics, and just all the cool, fun, important stuff, including all the apostles and prophets that we've come to know and love. When Greg told me a year or two ago that he was going to stop writing books, it super bummed me out. And now since I'VE met you. I'm like, super excited that we've got a scholar who is writing about 20th, 20th century Mormonism. So thank you for this book. And tell us really quickly about your first Ezra Tap Benson book and what got you interested in writing the second book on Ezra Tab Benson.

Matt Harris [00:03:19] Yeah. So about a year and a half ago, I published a book called Thunder on the Right. It's a collection of essays that BYU scholars participated or contributed, independent scholars, and really scholars all over the United States. And so we looked at specific themes of his life. I did one on an extended essay on Ezra Benson and his views on civil rights, why he thought it was a conspiracy. We had an excellent essay on women and gender, essay on his presidential years, essay on his time in the Eisenhower Cabinet, his presidential runs, so views on the Cold War free agency. So it covers a number of issues. And then the second book that we'll talk about today that John just pointed out is a book that will go into a lot more detail. It's kind of a different focus. It talks about Benson's how he became a radical conservative and then how those conservative views impacted the modern church. And so it's a much different book than the first one. But. But there are two books on Benson. I came across Benson in two ways. One, I was doing work for another book on blacks and Mormons, and I started to assemble this fairly robust file on Benson's views on civil rights. And so only a small fraction of that research went into my first black and Mormon book. And I just started gathering more material as I went along. And then the second way that I was became interested in Benson is my family are from Arizona, my father's side and his aunts and uncles, they're all members of the John Birch Society. Or were, I suppose. Maybe some still are, I don't know. But anyway, so I always grew up hearing about the Birch Society as a boy. We lived in Arizona until I was 10, and then we moved to Maine thereafter. And so I heard about the Birch Society. My dad was never a member, nor my mother, but their family members were. And so it was part of my life growing up. And then finally I served a mission in Idaho in the late 80s, and there was just Birch Society stuff everywhere. And one of my mission presidents was a neighbor to Ezra Taft Benton in Midway, Utah. So. So we heard stories about Benson from my mission president. So anyway, between my personal connection and also my interest in scholarship, that's how I became drawn to this very significant yet controversial figure.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Yeah. And you just, just as A little bit of a sneak preview. Like Ezra Taft, Benson was Secretary of Agriculture under Dwight D. Eisenhower for eight years. That's during the 50s, right in the middle of the Cold War. You know, he, he was a fan or even sort of a friend of J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI. He was, you know, he has connections with, with Ernest Wilkinson. He was a, he seems like he was a homeboy with David O. McKay. Like David O. McKay was really his shield. But, but once he left the Eisenhower administration in the 60s, he was a super controversial apostle. And he was so. He was so controversial that he was banned to Europe for a time by the first presidency of the Quorum of the twelve. And I don't mean to steal the thunder, but I just want people to understand why this story is so cool. And it got to the point where members were questioning whether he should even be a prophet by the time it came time for, for him to be. Actually, he's so controversial that When David O. McKay died, some members were wanting to skip Harold B. Lee and Joseph Fielding Smith and, and Spencer B. Kimball and just go straight, straight to Benson. He was so controversial that some wanted just to skip all the others and then others didn't want him profit president at all. There was a lot of conflict with Hugh B. Brown and even Gordon B. Hinckley and others and Spencer B. Kimball. Like, this is an amazing story on so many levels and there are so many parallels to what we're experiencing today with, with politics, with Donald Trump, with Q and on with conspiracies with the alt right, with the preppers, with the Bundys. This is like history all over again with, with, you know, with rumors of Russian and Soviet influence in the government. It's all in this book. So right now go buy this book on Amazon and then come back and watch this interview. It's by University of Utah Press, and it's phenomenal. So is that enough build up? Matt, is there anything you want to add before we jump in?

Benson's Early Life and Political Origins

Matt Harris [00:08:14] Yeah, just one little quick thing to note is that Benson didn't start out as a conspiracist. He didn't start out as a radical, we would say in the 1940s. He was always conservative, but he was voting for moderate Republican politicians like Thomas Dewey, his cousin Robert Taft, Ohio Senator. So it's only after, as you noted, John, where Eisenhower, the cabinet ended, the government years ended, elder Benson went back to Salt Lake to resume his duties as an apostle. It's only then when he met Robert Welch of the Burt Society, where he really starts to take a radical turn. But you can see parts of this developing when he's in Washington in the Cabinet, when he starts to associate with J. Edgar Hoover, as you noted, and also J. Reuben Clark, who is an enormous influence on him in some of his views. And then lastly Cleon Skousen, and then later on he'll meet some other Latter Day Saints who will influence him. So anyway, it's important to know that he develops these radical views gradually and that the other brethren, Harold B. Lee, for example, Joseph Fielding Smith, they are conservative, both politically and theologically, but they're not radicals. And that's one of the reasons why some of the members of the 12 want to rein him in because of his Benson's radical views. And they think it's harmful to the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] So, well, let's do a Wade's World and let's just go back. Let's go back to the beginning. Your book is divided up into five chapters. I read this book in just a few days. It's extremely readable. It's extremely gripping. It's not too much and it's not too little. But let's start with just his early years and what his involvement with the farm co ops and what gets him his position. What gets him his position as an apostle at such a young age and what gets him his position within the Eisenhower administration. So if you want, you can start with his birth and we can go from there.

Matt Harris [00:10:25] Yeah. So he's born in 1899 in Mormon community called Whitney, Idaho, and he's farm community. So he grows up in the farm community. And as a farmer, Benson developed views like many farmers do, hard working, working the rugged environment. And Benson develops these incredible. This incredible sense of independence and thrift and frugality, not unlike a lot of other farmers. And Benson admires his relatives who, especially his great grandfather, Ezra T. Benson, after whom he's named, who I'm a direct

John Dehlin [00:11:04] descendant of, by the way.

Matt Harris [00:11:06] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Okay.

Matt Harris [00:11:07] Yeah. And so they settle Cache Valley in northern Utah today. And Benson writes proudly that his family had tamed the rugged wilderness, the sense of independence and grit. And you can see the embers of his independence and his conservativism just growing then. And he can't understand why people would need government assistance, or any kind of assistance for that matter, beyond perhaps your church and your faith community or your civic community. So anyway, so he develops these independent views based on his agrarian upbringing. And then he gets involved in agricultural issues when he goes to BYU as an undergraduate. Then he does further graduate work at Iowa State where he receives his master's degree. And then strangely enough of all places, he enrolls in a PhD program at the University of California at Berkeley. The reason why I'm chuckling, of course, is Berkeley is a liberal place and Benson's not. But anyway, he doesn't finish the PhD there, but he takes a job in Idaho working during the Great Depression and where Americans are really starting to evaluate their lives, their incomes, the government. And certainly there are some radicals at the time who feel like capitalism has failed them because the Great depression has left 25 or 30% of people unemployed. So Benson thinks the government's not the solution. Benson thinks that people need to be the solution to their own problems. And so he creates these farmers cooperatives where people can pull their resources together and they can market their farm goods, they can specialize in certain farm goods. And he thinks that this is more efficient. And the only government role throughout all of this is to sponsor maybe some research innovations, for example. But really these co ops are a way for people to be independent and self sufficient. And so he does this at the local level in Idaho. And he eventually, by the 19, I guess, late 40s, Thomas Dewey, a Republican from New York, will recognize the good work that he's doing with the Idaho farm cooperatives and will invite Ezra Taft Benson into his cabinet in the late 1940s. And what's interesting about that is, is that he was, Benson by this point was part of the national, part of a national farmers co op leader in Washington D.C. at the time. So he was up front and he was near the center of all of this during the Great Depression under the Franklin Roosevelt years. And so he had a national role in these farmers cooperatives by the 1940s or 30s. Excuse me. And so he develops this reputation nationally. And then Thomas Dewey, the presidential candidate, 1948, will recognize his good work and will invite him to run or to be part of his cabinet as a Secretary of agriculture. And of course, by this point I'm jumping ahead just a quick second, but by this point Elder Benson is an apostle and needs the permission of the first presidency to do this. They gave him the permission and the rest, if any, if you recall that Harry Truman wins the election. So it doesn't come to fruition at the time. But anyway, this is, that was the

John Dehlin [00:14:36] famous Dewey beats Truman, right?

Matt Harris [00:14:39] Yeah. And so when this happened, I mean, this is all new for Benson. This is new for politics. And so the Dewey campaign invited Benson and his good friend Ernest Wilkinson, who, who was part of Benson's legal counsel. Benson had hired Wilkinson's law firm, this Washington, D.C. law firm, to do some farm cooperative work. So they got to know each other quite well when they were in Washington together, but also they were in the same stake. And Ezra Taft Benson, before he became an apostle, was a stake president. And so Ernest Wilkinson called him in, in the stake presidency with him in Washington D.C. so they had a religious connection with Wilkinson being in his stake presidency. And they also had a professional connection where Wilkinson was doing some legal work for the farm cooperatives. Well, anyway, Dewey invited Benson to their campaign headquarters in New York City to watch the election returns. And Benson invited Wilkinson to go with him. And Benson writes in his journal that we stayed up a good part of the night excited that, you know, Dewey was going to win. And it turns out that it doesn't happen that way. And, and Benson, of course, is alarmed that, that a Democrat had beat his guy. So. Anyway, can I, can I jump in

John Dehlin [00:15:58] just a couple things. So before we jump too far into his career, I really just want to quickly from, from your chapter one, talk about the kind of the, the Great Depression slash, New Deal environment. And one thing that really struck me about your book, we kind of think that for since time immemorial that I maybe, maybe some of the people that I talk to, maybe some of the more cynical people think that Utah has always been this theocracy that just operates lock and lock, step with the church leadership. And one of the things I loved that you described was how, you know, the Great Depression was happening. It hit Utah way worse than it hit other states. Do you want to talk about the stats you mentioned about that, that about the usage of welfare in Utah relative to other states?

Utah, the Great Depression, and the New Deal

Matt Harris [00:16:49] Yeah. So the Great Depression did hit Utah disproportionate to other states. And Utahns are, they need government assistance and they, they're, they're utilizing these New Deal programs. This is the creation of the modern welfare state. And I know welfare has a negative connotation for a lot of people today, but this is, this is a safety net that most Americans did not enjoy in the 1930s. And so this is one of the innovations of Franklin Roosevelt is that he creates a safety net for all Americans in their most dire need. And so Utahns are taking advantage of these New Deal programs at disproportionate rates compared to the rest of the country. I think, I can't remember what I wrote, what it is five or six times the national average. They're taking in more New Deal money than five or six times from that of other states. And so church leaders are upset by this, especially those who are extremely conservative, like J. Reuben Clark, for example. They don't like the New Deal. Heber J. Grant didn't like the New Deal even though he was a Democrat. And they thought that it would make Latter Day Saints beholden to their government, that they would receive a government dole and just become reliant and too dependent upon it. And it's not surprising that it's in that context where the church's own welfare system is created. And really it's an anecdote to the New Deal. They didn't say you can't use the New Deal programs, but they certainly wanted to wean people off the federal government and transition them over to the church welfare system. And, and one of the reasons, as J. Reuben Clark writes, is that our system will allow people to work for what they receive as opposed to the government. You just receive a check in the mail and that's it. You don't have to do anything. But in the government, in the Mormon welfare system, that you would receive assistance and then the bishop or somebody from the ward who was appointed could oversee your work to pay off that welfare assistance. So that, that's something that's really important because Benson's views about welfare are really hardened by his association with some of the church leaders who are extremely anti New Deal.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] And I just want to note, just so we can leave this point that you write in the book that Grant urged Utah. Heber J. Grant, president and prophet of the Church, urged Utahns to not vote for Roosevelt, for FDR in the 1836 presidential election. And I would think, oh my gosh, it's 1936. Everyone in Utah is going to do whatever the Prophet says. Tell us what happens.

Matt Harris [00:19:35] Well, so Utah, I think this is where you're driving at. Mormons do follow their leaders. There's no doubt about it. It happens more often than not when the First Presidency or the Prophet says something, Latter Day Saints will fall into lockstep. But there are some examples in the 20th century where that is clearly not the case. The election of 1936 is a prime example where Heber J. Grant and J. Reuben Clark are emphatic about Latter Day Saints not voting for Franklin Roosevelt. They think he's a socialist, he's destroying free enterprise, our capitalist system. So they're writing editorials, J. Reuben Clark's writing editorials in the Deseret News, a church owned newspaper urging Latter Day Saints not to support the New Deal. And what do they do? They support the New Deal.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] I love it.

Matt Harris [00:20:22] And this happens with prohibition, too. Just a little bit earlier, the Latter Day Saint leaders would urge Mormons to not support the repeal of prohibition, but they do. And so I forgot that.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] I forgot about that.

Matt Harris [00:20:37] Yeah, they do. And I think the connection here would be when there's money involved, when you've got a small business and you, you're selling alcohol, even if you're a good Latter Day Saint, you don't drink it. You're gonna vote. You might vote your pocketbook first. Same thing in the New Deal. Why would I vote against Franklin Roosevelt when I'm getting a check every month to sustain my family? It's not because I'm lazy. It's not because I'm lazy. It's not because I don't want to work. I need it to survive and to live. And so when the Brethren, when most of the brethren come out against the New Deal, it doesn't resonate with Latter Day Saints because it's, it's, it's difficult for them because they need this money to survive.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] Right when. Thank you. And I just think that's so cool. I've forgotten that about prohibition. Thanks for reminding us that Mormons don't always follow their prophets lockstep. They, they sometimes use their better judgment and, and disregard what the prophets are. President's Day, really quickly. I think it's important when, when we look at his heavy opposition to the Democratic Party and to socialism and communism later, I think, like you said, it really gets solidified in his involvement with the co ops. Because the co ops are this example of people sort of, quote, pulling themselves up, farmers pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and, and making things work without the assistance of the government. So could you just talk briefly about what the co ops were and how they were successful? Because I'm guessing they're wildly successful and that he had an important part to play in their success.

Agricultural Co-ops and Anti-Government Philosophy

Matt Harris [00:22:16] Yeah. So the premise of these co ops is they don't want the government involved. That's at least as minimal government interference as possible. And in the 1930s and into the 40s, there are folks in the United States who argue that if you could pull your resources together, whether you're selling grain or marketing grain or whether you're marketing beef or whatever it is, if you have some common umbrella that you could pull your resources together, pull your money together where you can market your goods more efficiently. Potatoes, which is a big one in Idaho, not everybody has to market independently. You can Use the same postage. You could use the same marketing schemes, that somehow this would save money and it would make people more efficient. This was all about efficiency, really, for Ezra Taft Benson. And what's interesting about it during the New Deal is that when people are turning to the New Deal for assistance. Benson says something very interesting in General Conference. This is just after he was called as an apostle. He said that we need to pull ourselves up and not run to the government for every little problem that we may have. By that, he meant that if we're farming, we need to really forget about getting farm assistance from the government. And maybe co ops would be a better alternative to help us to streamline our costs. Benson also said something interesting, too. He didn't think co ops were for everybody, that it depended on where you lived, what your resources were, how close you were to other farmers. So he was pretty clear on that. Also, he was pretty clear to defend accusations that co ops sort of mirrored socialism. You pull everything together. And he said that that's just simply not the case because co ops still play by the rules of supply and demand. We still market our products. We don't have a centralized authority doing it for us. So he wanted people to know that co ops were extremely part of the capitalist American tradition. And anyway, so what's interesting, just to give a preview of things to head. So he spends his early years promoting co ops, both in Idaho and then both at the national level. And then when the Great Depression hits and later he goes into the Cabinet, the Eisenhower Cabinet, he promotes co ops, but co ops aren't going to keep your bills paid and keep your lights on and bring money in right away. And so he's sort of advancing this antiquated system where people need money right away. And it's not. When I say people, I'm also talking about Latter Day Saints when they hear that he's trying to cut farm subsidies. When he's in the Eisenhower administration, there are Latter Day Saints who just. They go crazy and they write the First Presidency letters, particularly J. Reuben Clark. And they'll say stuff like, dear President Clark, my husband and I own a farm in Logan, Utah, and Secretary Benson is talking about cutting our farm subsidies, and he's talking about co ops and this won't help us. We need money from the government. We're losing money. What do we do? And J. Reuben Clark is in an extremely difficult position because he wants to honor Secretary Benson, doesn't want to undermine him in any way. So he writes back to this lady and he says, look, his government policies are separate from his church policies. And the hard part about this is this woman didn't believe that. She thought they were one in the same. And so when he said, we're going to cut your farm subsidies, she took that personally and began to resent him for it. And so that's one of the reasons why the Brethren didn't want Benson, or at least some of them were skeptical of him going into government to begin with, because they thought that there might be distinctions that needed to be made but couldn't be made because people would. Latter Day Saints wouldn't be able to differentiate his political position from his apostolic position. Oh, I lost you, John. We're on mute.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] Sorry, I was on mute for a second. So that's brilliant. Thank you for digging into that, because I really do think his, his opposition to the, to the New Deal leads to a lot of his opposition to everyone at some point.

Matt Harris [00:26:50] You know, let me say one thing about the, the New Deal before we. I know we'll probably move on, but Benson is. He's part of a, a long line of conservatives who are opposed to the New Deal. And they even call it communist. They think they call it the New Deal communist. And Benson certainly does that. But he's not unique in this sense, at least the 1930s and into the 40s, because they think that this is. The government's creating this totalitarian sort of system where they're really giving money to people that before that, churches and charities would essentially cover. And so this is. So Benson's calling the New Deal communist, but it's not unique. And then later on, as we move on into the 50s and 60s, he'll continue that theme. He'll call various leaders communist. But I think it's important to know that conservatives like Benson are calling it communist. But the really strange thing about this is that Franklin Roosevelt saves capitalism during its darkest hour. That's really, really an important point to note because he's been called a socialist, a communist for a long time, but that's just simply not the case. Roosevelt preserves capitalism when many Americans think that capitalism has failed them because 25 to 30% of Americans are out of work. So anyway, obviously Benson and Franklin Roosevelt have profound differences about what the government means in our life and the involvement that it should have.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Love it. Thanks for that. Thanks for that clarification. Let's jump quickly. You, you referenced his time in D.C. when he was a stake president, and you mentioned him meeting Ernest Wilkinson there. I think it's also. I think he met a Few other people that, that were also important. Do we want to mention them? Just. And then I want to talk about the. I want to introduce the theme of race and racism because that's also a theme that heavily was associated with Benson that later. That we're dealing with now as well. So let's talk about some of the other people he met in his stake in D.C. and then let's talk about that experience he had with race where you start to get a view of his, his, his opinions on race.

Washington D.C. and Formative Influences

Matt Harris [00:29:09] Yeah, so. So D.C. is a, is a, is a formative part of his life. There's no question about it. Going to Washington D.C. where he's working for both the National Farmers Cooperative and then of course, he becomes a member of Eisenhower's cabinet. But when he's in Washington D.C. he meets Ernest Wilkinson, which is important. He meets a guy named David Kennedy, who's influential banker who later becomes the Secretary of Treasury in the Nixon administration. David Kennedy. And if some of your listeners have been to BYU and they've heard of the Kennedy center, that's who that's named after. When I was at byu, I walked by the Kennedy center every day. Anyway, so he meets David Kennedy, he meets Ernest Wilkinson, he meets J. Willard Marriott, and they develop a close friendship, actually. And then finally, the person who influences him the most is a guy who goes to work for the FBI the mid-1930s for a short stint. His name is Cleon Skousen. And so Benson and Cleon Skousen solidify their friendship in Washington D.C. and then later on, of course, Skousen and Benson will work closely together with their affiliation, the John Birch Society. They live near each other in Salt Lake too, so they have this profound connection. But this all starts in Washington D.C. and it's no surprise either that when Ernest Wilkinson. There's an opening for the BYU presidency in, I think it's 1951 or 2:51, I think. Anyway, Benson pushes to have Ernest Wilkinson appointed BYU's president. J. Reuben Clark does as well. No surprise that Benson and Clark pushed for this appointment because Wilkinson is conservative like they are. So in terms of race, Benson is a stake president in the 1940s. This is before he was called as an apostle. And there's a couple of black women in his stake. And he hears from the local bishop, he said, look, these, these black women, these Latter Day Saints, they're good Negro women, that's what they call them in those days, and they want to worship. But there are some of our white brothers and sisters who don't want them to worship with them. And what do I do? President Benson asks the First Presidency. So he's asking the First Presidency in Salt Lake for guidance. Stake President Benson asking the First Presidency for guidance about what do I do? The appearance of these black women at church are causing me fits.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Remind us what the church's doctrine was regarding the Mark of Cain and, you know, Negroes, as they called them.

Matt Harris [00:31:49] Okay, yeah. So there's two thoughts here. The church theology, of course, is the church thinks that black people are cursed, they can't hold the priesthood, that they somehow had done something in a premortal dwelling that showed their displeasure for God, whether they were sitting on a fence and were not valued to God's purposes, or maybe they did take sides, who knows? The church leaders disagree on some of the particulars, but nonetheless they were less valiant. They were cursed and they were denied the priesthood, but they never had a policy of segregation. The church never had a policy of segregation. And so when they would segregate, there were plenty of examples of segregation with black Latter Day Saints in the church, but these were just de facto policies or unofficial policies, we would say. And so when President Benson, State President Benson writes the First Presidency and says, look, I need some help. What do I do? The First Presidency writes back. And they just say, you know, we'll leave it to your discretion. Do the right thing. You might just see if you can separate the black sisters and put them in the corner. You know, allow them to come to church, but put them in the corner. So maybe that might satisfy some of the white Latter Day Saints who were offended by having them there. And in 1936, there was another famous. I say famous because it's talked about the church a little bit. Mark Peterson talked about it, and Marion Hanks, Elder Hanks, the general authority, talked about it a lot, which is Len and Mary Holt. They live in Ohio in the 30s. And Mark Peterson had met them as an apostle at some point. Marion Hanks was a missionary back there. And Elder Hanks got to know the Hope family, and he told the story, as did Apostle Peterson, that the Hope family, they were not allowed to worship at the Cincinnati branch where they lived. And the saints were just very emphatic. We can't have them in the building. And so they would bring the sacrament to the hopes. And that's where Elder Hanks met them. He would administer the sacrament to them and leave a little devotional or spiritual message with them. And I think that they permitted the hopes to come to church once a month or once Every other month if there was some big speaker. But for the most part, they had to take the sacrament in their home. And once again, this is not an official policy. This is just the locals, the bishop and the local leadership deciding that it's too controversial to have black people worship with white people at that time. So the race issue has Ezra Taft Benson grows up in a world that's segregated by and large. And we can talk about, I guess, Brown versus the board, famous Supreme Court case in just a second. But he inherits this racial dogma that black people are cursed, that they're less valiant. And even though he wasn't as emphatic about it as Bruce McConkie, one of his colleagues, or Joseph Fielding Smith, he certainly talks about and maintains the, the, this church teaching, right?

Race, Civil Rights, and Early Church Views

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yeah. And you write in the book that he shared J. Reuben Clark's opinion that even though Latter Day Saints should treat them as brothers and sisters, he, he believed that it was wrong spiritually and biologically for whites and blacks to mix races and marry. Tell, tell us really quickly what, what the wisdom was from Salt Lake City on how to deal with these two colored sisters in the ward.

Matt Harris [00:35:25] Well, so they don't really, they're not heavy handed. I'm sure it was Reuben Clark who wrote them back because he wrote most of the First Presidency messages by that point it was, would have been George Albert Smith, who was the president. Let me get this right. It might have been Heber J. Grant, think about this anyway, and David O. McKay. They were all in the first presidency. And so J. Ren Clark wrote most of these letters and recognizing that it was difficult dealing with these racial issues, the First Presidency told Benson, you know, use your discretion. They can still go to church. But see, see if they can just go in the corner. And I don't really, I don't know the details about how it worked out or how these women felt about it, but I, but Benson did ask them to sit in the corner. They could still go to church. Unlike the Hope family that I was talking about a minute ago In Ohio, these two colored sisters could go to church in Washington D.C. but they had to go in the corner, sit in the corner.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] And just, just to get people to buy this book, buy this book because it's got these gems. Do you mind, do you mind if I just read what you wrote for this section? They instructed him to handle the matter discreetly and informed him that, quote, if the white sisters feel that they may. Discreetly. No, that they may. Sorry. If the white sisters feel that they may not sit with them or near them. We feel very sure that if the colored sisters were discreetly approached, they would be happy to sit on one. On one side, in the rear or somewhere where they would not wound the sensibilities of the complaining sisters. We will rely upon your tact and discretion to work this out so as to not hurt the feelings on the part of anyone. On the one hand, like they're trying to be nice to the, the colored sisters and want them involved. Kudos to them for that. But it's kind of like get in the back of the bus a little bit, which is not ever fun to read. But they probably weren't unique in those sensibilities either, right?

Matt Harris [00:37:34] No, not at all. So no. There are lots of examples of black Americans being asked to go sit in the corner in the school, go sit in the back of the church, go stand in the back of the bus. So this is really. Mormon leaders are. They're parroting national trends with race. There's no doubt about it. Certainly Mormons aren't the first group to think that black people are cursed. This is a dogma that they inherit from Protestants. Certainly Mormons though, are unique in creating this theology that they did something in a pre earth life that's wholly Mormon. But anyway, really what Benson and what other leaders are afraid of is black sexuality. They absolutely are just, they're just horrified of black sexuality, meaning that black, if you put black and white people together, they're going to date and they're eventually going to marry. That governs. If you want to understand their policies about segregation, about civil rights, it starts with black sexuality. Like many Americans, Mormon leaders fear interracial marriage. They think it's wrong biologically, they think it's wrong spiritually. Some of them take it to a new level. Spencer Kimball argues that women, whites and blacks ought to be not marry simply because of marital prescription manuals that he was reading in the 40s and 50s that said, look, if you, if you get married, you ought. Mormons ought to marry Mormons. White Mormons should marry white Mormons. Asians should marry Asians. Middle class should marry middle class. Catholics should marry Catholics. This is the sort of this prescriptive literature that you get in the 40s and 50s. And J. Reuben Clark takes it a step further. Reuben Clark argues that there's some science behind it, that not only is there a spiritual component, that somehow God has tried to keep the races apart. But Reuben Clark argues that if you mix the races biologically, it'll create an inferior breed of People, and this is obvious, this is not Spencer Kimball. This is a whole different ball of wax altogether. So there are instances of scientific racism, of biblical racism or religious racism. And the Brethren are reading the scriptures, as are a lot of Protestant Christians at the time. And they are emphatic that they have to keep whites and blacks apart. And when the civil rights movement starts to germinate in the 50s and then it moves into full swing in the 60s, civil rights poses all kinds of problems for the church because a lot of people, Latter Day Saints in particular, they want to know how is discrimination in jobs and housing? What does that have to do with the mark of Cain and the priesthood and all of that? That's a separate issue. What does that have to do with it? And they can't understand these Latter Day Saints can't understand why the church won't come out and support civil rights because it's a separate issue. Why is the Hotel Utah segregated in the 40s and 50s? What does that do with the priesthood? And the answer is black sexuality. They don't want blacks and whites to mix and mingle. And Benson inherits this world. And he's in Washington in the 1950s when a lot of this is starting to occur. He's in the cabinet when Brown versus the board is decided in 1954. He's in the cabinet 1957 when Dwight Eisenhower passes the first piece of civil rights legislation in over a almost a century. And so this is, this is all going on around him and quite frankly he's extremely uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] Right. So we're going to come back to race and civil rights for sure. But, but it's fun to kind of get to stop in at different points along the way. Should we jump to his time in war torn, post, kind of post war torn Europe as the next stop along the way? Okay.

Matt Harris [00:41:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] Or anything else in the timeline you want to make sure and cover before that. You're the boss.

Matt Harris [00:41:43] Yeah, no, I think that's a good place to go. So there are three things that really, I think define Benson. If you want to just sort of a macro look at his life. Three things that define Benson. One is his experience in war torn Europe as an apostle. The second one is his time in Washington in Eisenhower's cabinet that we'll get to in maybe more detail in just a minute. And then the third one that we'll get to is his affiliation with the John Birch Society. I think those three things define Benson more than anything else in his life. The first one is he had been called President Graham had called him in as an apostle in 1943. Right. As the war was winding down. Not, not quite yet. We still have. The war ends in 45, in the spring of 45, when the Germans surrender. And then of course, in September, a few months later, the Japanese will surrender.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] But anyway, and Matt, is a way to honor your book and encourage people to get it. Can I, can I read the part when Grant calls Benson?

Matt Harris [00:42:53] Oh, yeah, please.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] It's just so beautiful. Yeah, it is so, so inspired. President Grant in 1943. So it says in 1943, President Grant was inspired to call him in the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. And then it writes, benson recorded this experience in his journal. And we should add. So I, I'm guessing you had access to Benson's journal to write this. I don't even think we talked about that.

Matt Harris [00:43:22] Yeah, I did up until when he went to Eisenhower's cabinet. They, the church wouldn't allow anyone to see from 1953 on. So I had access to his journal up until 1953. So if your readers, if they, if they read the book, they'll see that I'm quoting his journals in his early years. And if you wonder why isn't he quoting him in the, you know, 50s and 60s and 70s and all that, because they're not available. So after his government service, they didn't want to make.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Okay, so this is directly from Benson's journal. I was pleased to see Sister Grant and was shown into President Grant's bedroom. And this was in the summer cabin in Salt Lake City, right?

Matt Harris [00:44:05] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Where. Where would a summer cabin be in Salt Lake City?

Matt Harris [00:44:10] One of the canyons. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Okay, maybe like Mill Creek Canyon, possibly.

Matt Harris [00:44:15] Yeah, I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] I was pleased to see Sister Grant and was shown into President Grant's bedroom where he was dressed but resting on the COVID of the bed facing the door. After I closed the door and sat down on a chair close to the bed, he took my right hand in both of his and as I looked into his kindly tear filled eyes, he said, quote, with all my heart, I congratulate you and pray God to bless you. You have been chosen as the newest apostle of the church. So tender. It's like I sometimes get grumpy at these guys. But that's a tender moment, isn't it?

Matt Harris [00:44:55] Yeah, it is. It is. It's Benson. You know, Benson got to know a lot of the brethren when he was a stake president. They would come to Washington D.C. often, and in those days they would stay in the homes of the stake presidents, I think today they probably don't do that. They stay in hotels. But in those days, for whatever reason, to save money maybe, or maybe just to get to know the stake president, his family, a little bit better, they would stay in their homes. And so Benson got to know the apostles on a personal basis. And at one point, Benson's a workaholic. He was working just tons of hours when he was a stake president in Washington and also when he was the chief executive of the National Farmers Cooperative. And on one occasion, Reuben Clark, President Clark, wrote him a. I was tempted to say email, but that doesn't sound right, does it? Wrote him a letter, and he just said, dear President Benson, you're going to burn yourself out. You're working way too much. And so his work ethic caught their attention, his loyalty to the church caught their attention. And. And so he developed these. These kinships with them. And then, of course, this tender moment where President Grant calls him into his home, his summer home, cabin in Salt Lake, and takes his hands, and both men start to cry, and then he issues his calling into the quorum of the 12. This is really an enormous moment because Benson's, what, 43 or 44 years of age when this happens. He's fairly. He's a young man. He's got little children.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] And his response, again, is kind of tender. Like, I think of him as harsh and stern and serious. But you have him respond saying, oh, President Grant, that can't be, and repeating it several times. He's kind of stunned, right?

Matt Harris [00:46:51] He's stunned. You know, there's no. I don't think that there's any indication that Elder Benson then. That he knew this was coming. I mean, I really think he was shocked. Bruce McConkey, when he was called into the 12 in, I guess, what, 72, the early 70s, he had this spiritual prompting that he was going to be called as an apostle. But I don't think that Benson had any idea this was coming. And it's interesting. A lot of apostles, if you read their writings, their journals, their diaries, and sometimes they disclose it in general conference, too, that they have these, you know, feelings that this is where God wants them. But I don't get the impression that Benson knew this. This is just. This came out of left field.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] Yeah.

Matt Harris [00:47:35] Or right field.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Right. Really, really quickly. This is kind of a tiny bit of a tangent, but since we just recently talked about his. His journals and your access to it in the archives, I remember a conversation once with. With Ted Lyon, who was the Interpreter for Jeffrey R. Holland while Holland lived in Chile for three years. And Ted Lyon was a professor of mine at byu and he's the son of T. Edgar Lyon, a really important figure in, in the history of the church who is buddies with, I think Lowell Bennion and they talked in his,

Matt Harris [00:48:13] I worked in his papers. Edgar Lyon papers.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Edgar Lyon, Yep. Okay, awesome. So Ted Lyon, his son, T. Edgar's son, told me that at some point the church told apostles that they're no longer allowed to keep journals. And I've had some people like push back and tell me that I'm, I'm full of crap there. So I guess it's a two part question and I don't want to get derailed. So we can just touch this briefly, you know, can you just tell listeners who aren't LDs, why in the world is the Church not giving you access to Elder Benson's full journal? Not just up until a certain point? And then do you think I'm crazy or I have bad information or Ted Lyon was lying to me or misinformed when he told me that the church has informed current apostles no longer to keep journals.

Access to Journals and Church Archives

Matt Harris [00:49:02] I've heard that too, that they don't keep current journals because they've been burned by these journals. Getting out in the open after their loved ones have died. A couple of quick stories with this, John. When George Albert Smith passed away, of course, in the 40s, his children had sold their father's papers to the University of Utah. The key word is sold. They didn't give them, they sold them. And when Apostle Packer, Boyd K. Packer, learned about this, he said something like, they sold their souls for a mess of pottage. And he was upset, Elder Packer was upset that the Smith children didn't donate their father's papers. This is a church president, mind you, in the 1940s, they didn't give the papers to the church archivists. And so they sold them to the University of Utah with the stipulation that they would be open to scholars like me and others. And so they didn't like that. David O. McKay. His papers. You mentioned Greg Prince a minute ago, who wrote a great biography on David O. McKay. Much of that work was based upon papers that David O. McKay's secretary, Claire Middlemass, had kept over a period of several years. And these papers had. After President McKay died in 1970, Middlemist took dozens and dozens of these volumes of his journals that she had kept and transcribed. And there are phone conversations in there. It's really great stuff. If you're a scholar. And they were in her basement for a number of years. And then as Greg Prince has talked about that, he got ahold of these materials and was able to construct his book along those lines. So really what it is, is the church doesn't want the papers of contemporary apostles to be available to scholars. I mean, I don't know else to say it. They've been enormously transparent in recent years when they published the Joseph Smith papers that they're still doing, which is a wonderful work of scholarship. It's an incredible intensive undertaking that the archivists have been doing in Salt Lake. They've done really great work. Anyway, when they decided to publish the Joseph Smith papers that are going to be like 24 volumes when it's all said and done. And also when they allowed people to see the Brigham Young papers, a scholar named John Turner, who's written a biography on Brigham Young, that was their way of saying, we want to be transparent with these 19th century church leaders. However, they don't feel that way about contemporary church leaders. And maybe it's because we're too close in the moment to their ministry, I don't know. But probably 50, 60, 70, 80 years from now, maybe Joseph Fielding Smith's papers or Spencer Kimball's papers or the full collection of Ezra Taft Benson's papers will be available. But right now that's not the case. Benson, they wanted to keep his papers quiet or unavailable because we're getting into controversial things. When we talk about his government service and we talk about his role of the Burt Society, I know we'll talk about that in a minute. But he's extremely controversial and polarizing and you'll see that in his journals. And before he's called into the 12 in 1943, up until, I guess 1953, that 10 year period, I mean, there's really nothing controversial. It's really a series of touching moments about his life, his family and his mission to war torn Europe. He's got some incredibly moving passages in there about walking the streets of Europe and he sees these people who are emaciated, some of whom are Latter Day Saints. They haven't eaten in days. There's this carnage everywhere. He goes to Warsaw where he sees these crematoriums where Jews have been slaughtered. I mean, he writes his wife and this is in his journal. He says, I'm going to paraphrase, it's in the book, the exact quote. But he says that he said, if I wasn't here, I couldn't believe that this is happening. I just couldn't believe it. But I'm here and I see it and it's just, it's so profoundly moving and the suffering that these people are going through. So you see all of these, I guess in Mormon language, you might call it faith promoting things in his journal before 1953. Then after 53, I'm going to conjecture you, you'll probably start to see some more controversial things with his views and some of his government policies and in most especially his association with the John Birch Society and the polarization that that occurs in the high church leadership.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Love it. Thank you so much. And I guess someone tried to push back and say that, you know, corporations don't always make available their private records. And then I'm thinking about like the FBI and the CIA, there's that Freedom of Information Act. But, but, but it's very common for the federal government to sort of put a seal on government records for a certain number of decades and then, you know, to make, to make things available decades later. Maybe, maybe the church is kind of modeling its archival.

Matt Harris [00:54:20] No, I think so. Let's, let's.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] So

Matt Harris [00:54:25] what happens is. So. A couple of thoughts. Let me share a quick story and then a thought. A story is that Marion Hanks, Elder Hanks, was a member of the first quorum of the 70s. So that's a Quorum of leadership that's just below the Apostles. So if some of your listeners aren't Latter Day Saints, they might not know the structure of the church. There's the First Presidency, which is the highest governing body in the LDS Church. Then there's the Quorum of the Apostles, the next highest governing body. And then there's the first quorum of the 70, the third highest governing body. Marion D. Hanks was in the third quorum of the 70, or the first quorum of the 70,' which is the third highest governing body. And his son told me that in the early 90s, the church had called and said that they want all of the apostles and general authorities to give their diaries to the church. And so this is from Elder Hanks's son, who's a wonderful guy. He said there are two general authorities who didn't want to donate their diaries. One was my father, Marion Hanks, because Elder Hanks was just one of those independent kind of guys that, you know, you know, I'm not going to do it just because you asked, I'm not going to do it. Why? It's my diary. And the second one was Paul Dunn. And the story, of course, goes you know, why did you resist, Elder Dunn? You don't even keep a diary. I just resist on principle. So he just wasn't interested in passing on his diary, even if he had one. But Elder Hanks did have one, and his diary is now in the church archives. And I have sections of his diary that his son has shared with me. But anyway, and then the other thing I'll share is that I've heard this from a couple of people that at the highest echelons of leadership, when they're called into the 12, they sign some documentation where they do will turn their papers over to the church when the apostle dies and when their father or grandfather dies, because it's usually the kids who inherit all this stuff. And so when people donate, when general authorities donate their papers, they generally put stipulations like Spencer W. Kimball's papers are supposed to be open for research. That was the stipulation that his son Ed, who was the custodian of these papers when his father died in 1985, Ed Kimball inherited the papers. And he made it very clear to the archivist, they're supposed to be open for research. And if you need to redact some sensitive things from his diaries, whether it's temple or finances or something of the sort, that's okay, but they need to be open. Henry Moyle's papers that were donated 1979, they were supposed to be open by 1984. And so.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] But they're not. You're saying they're not.

Matt Harris [00:57:18] Unfortunately, they're not. And probably they're not because they just don't want their, Their. Their contemporaries. They're too close to their ministries. And I don't think it has. I, I've heard the corporate line too. Well, corporations don't make their papers available. It's not a matter of whether they have the authority to not make it available. It's a matter of, you know, should they. And obviously, as a historian, I think they should because I think transparency is important. I say that minus the. Some of the spiritual things. I mean, you know, if you're getting into sacred temple rituals, I don't think that that should be open. I mean, people have a right to believe in sacred ordinances and rituals and not have them written about and talked about. But I think a lot of this stuff that I've seen, I've been privileged to see lots of restricted material. I should say this, and that's a different conversation for maybe another day. But I've seen lots of restricted diaries and journals, and I can't Help but ask myself, why is this restricted? There's nothing that's embarrassing. There's nothing. Sometimes it's even faith promoting. And I think some of it's just. They have so much material, they don't even know what they have. But some of it would be sacred, as the church would say, or sensitive. If you're dealing with a church court in excommunication, that's a real thing. And I've had access to Spencer Kimball's papers. Ed Kimball, the late Ed Kimball, facilitated my access into his father's papers of the Church history library. And I went through his journals unredacted, and I saw all kinds of things. And. And some of these people that I've, you know, I'll write about in my research, both in this Benson book and maybe my next book project, which is on blacks and Mormons, some of these people might still be alive. And I just have a policy when I write about, I don't mention their name. So if somebody writes a letter to President Kimball that I want to quote in my book, I would just write, you know, stake president in Florida to President Kimball. I don't need to mention their name. It's not important to mention their name. Maybe their title. So. But. So there are privacy issues, I think, that are real. I've heard that from the church before. We're concerned about privacy issues. It's hard to make that claim, though, when you're talking about a letter from 1939 and some adult was writing in because they're dead. They're not. They're not allowed, they're not alive to, you know, experience these privacy, you know, invasions, if you will. But certainly with President Kimball, when people were writing him, when he was a church president, these. These folks are still alive, at least some of them. So I think there's a need to be, you know, circumspect and sensitive with those kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Makes sense. Well, thanks for helping us understand that. It's got to be, in some ways, wonderful to be a Mormon historian. And in some ways, it's got to be maddening. And maybe that's part of the challenge, I'm guessing. Let's. You were talking about the things that shaped Benson, and you had mentioned one of the three was his time in post war Europe, post World War II Europe. Should we jump back there? Sorry. I took down a rabbit trail a bit, but it's. Sorry, not sorry. Because that discussion about journals and. And the archives, I think is really important. So I'm glad we had it. So let's jump to a post World War II Europe, shall we?

Benson's Mission to Post-War Europe

Matt Harris [01:00:34] Yeah. So the scene is, it's 1945, the war has just ended. European Latter Day Saints have just been dead devastated by the war like other Europeans at the time. And the brethren are receiving letters of course about their. The saints are starving, they haven't eaten, their buildings have been bombed out, they've lost their homes, they don't have clothes. And so they want to send a emissary, someone from the church to Europe to oversee this reconstruction. And Benson, oddly enough, seemed like the last person to call just because he's got a young family, he's 44, 45 years of age, he's got little kids, he's got a couple of teenagers at that point and he wasn't their first choice. Harold Lee, I think was one of the ones they wanted to send over first. And there was somebody else, I think an older apostle. And for whatever reason, because of health reasons, actually I think there were two apostles they had invited or wanted to go before Elder Benson, but they had health issues and they couldn't go. And the brethren were extremely careful or they understood that Benson would be a hardship on his family. They knew that because of who he was and that he had young children. But they felt like he was the person to go. And so they call a companion for him, a guy named Frederick Babel. Benson didn't know Babel and Babel was I think 30 years of age. So Elder Benson would have been 45. And they tell Babel, I can't remember what Babel did for employment at that point, but somebody had recommended one of the apostles, had recommended this Babel guy. You need to bring him as your missionary companion, if you will. He'll go to Europe with you and he'll take notes at meetings and he'll be your eyes and ears and he'll be a source of strength to you just much as a missionary companion today perhaps. Well anyway, Imbaba will later write a book about it on the wings of faith. His experience in war torn Europe with President with Elder Benson. And Benson will later publish his memoirs from his journals about his time in Europe that will be published during his church presidency. But anyway, Babel was told by one of the apostles and this is passive tense, was told. I don't know who the apostle was told, but he was told by one of the apostles. He said, you're going to get to meet Elder Benson very carefully. You'll be around him, you'll live with him, you'll fly with him, you'll travel with him. Do not give him counsel unless he asks because he's very, very serious and he'll take everything you say seriously. He'll stew on it and fixate on it. That was kind of the message, how I read that. But don't give him counsel unless he asked. I thought that was a really interesting window into his personality and temperament. And so for the next 11 or 12 months, Elder Benson and Elder Babel travel throughout war torn Europe and they look at the needs of the church. They work with some local agencies, US Agencies, to try to make deliveries of food and clothing a little bit more successful. They write detailed letters back, or Benson does, to the First Presidency, talking about what he had seen and heard. And a lot of these letters are preserved in the J. Reuben Clark Papers at byu. So they're not, it's not a restricted collection. People can go see these letters. They're really moving. And one of the things that I found in researching this book, I was able to look into dozens of archives across the United States. Benson left a footprint in various archives that have never been utilized or worked in, including the Herbert Hoover archives in Iowa. And Benson had reached out to Herbert Hoover. He had met him a time or two. This is the President before Franklin Roosevelt. And Hoover is a conservative Republican who unfortunately, the stock market went south on his watch in 1928, 29, anyway, and then Franklin Roosevelt defeated him in the 32 election. But anyway, so he reached out to Herbert Hoover, who was no longer the president, of course, and he said, Dear Mr. President, I am embarking on this mission for my church. And I know that you had been to war torn Europe yourself during World War I, and you embarked on this humanitarian mission. What advice do you have for me? And Herbert Hoover wrote him back a fairly lengthy letter. And he said, listen to the people and see how you can get them food and supplies. That is what they need. And I don't know if Benson learned anything from President Hoover's response to him, but it confirmed to him that he had to do more than just listen and learn, that he really had to get them food and supplies, otherwise they're going to die. And so there was this incredibly urgent moment. And so when Elder Benson works with Babel in Europe for little over a year, much of their work is touring and visiting with the Saints and trying to bolster their faith. There's a lot of that, of course, but also he's working with government agencies and local agencies to help to coordinate the food and the supplies. Because the United States government's sending over a lot of aid at this time too. And, and unfortunately some of the aid is not coordinated and it's not getting to the right people who need it the most. And so Benson's helping to facilitate that process. He's working with government people. And there's one thing I want to share that's I think important from all of this is that Benson has this incredible reaction to communism and fascism. When he's there, he's looking around and he thinks that this destruction, this tremendous destitution, it's the result of what he called isms communism and fascism. And he'd already of course called New Deal and liberalism communism at that point. But now it really becomes amplified because he sees the suffering and he writes about this in his journal and he also gives a sermon about this in General Conference when he gets back about how amassing total power could lead to tremendous physical and spiritual destruction. It's really this momentous moment that Benson has when he's in war torn Europe and he can see what these totalitarian regimes do to their people. It's not good.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] Yeah. And you also talk about him visiting the concentration camps as well.

Matt Harris [01:07:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] And seeing kind of the remnants of the Holocaust there. Right, Yeah.

Matt Harris [01:07:24] I wonder if I should just read a quick passage maybe.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Yeah, yeah. I was going to have you read about the course of systems, but go ahead, read whatever you think is relevant.

Matt Harris [01:07:32] Oh, okay. Yeah. So this is, I think it's worthy of reading because Benson's words are better than I can paraphrase in Europe. So this is what I say. Witnessing the destitute conditions of Latter day Saints in these war ravaged nations became one of the defining moments in Benson's life. To his wife Flora, whom he had left behind along with their six young children, he reflected, quote, I'm so grateful of you and the children can be spared the views of the terrible ravages of war. I fear I'll never be able to erase them from my memory. This is a letter he writes that includes in his diary to his wife. And what's really interesting about that moment is that he, Benson, reflects back on this moment for the rest of his life. He frequently talks about his time in war torn Europe and he'll do this even in his, you know, 80s when he's the church president, he looks back and how this has affected him. Gordon Hinckley. When Ezra Taft Benson died in 1994, Hinckley mentions this at his funeral. Hinckley, of course, had worked closely with him in the quorum of the 12. For a number of years he had been his counselor in the first presidency. And so when Hinckley eulogizes him at his funeral, he talks about how Benson became bitter towards socialist and communist regimes as a result of his visit to war torn Europe. And I thought the word was interesting. Bitter. That's the word that Hinckley uses. And I'm certain that wasn't a slip because I think that that's a, a way to characterize his experience there and how it made him view systems of government.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Yeah, there is a, as a psychologist or As a psychology PhD, I should say, there, there's a, there's a diagnosis called complex ptsd, which is you don't have to be actually assaulted or, you know, witness a murder, but you can just have life experiences that end up being traumatizing. And maybe someone could argue that, that he maybe was somewhat traumatized by what he saw.

Matt Harris [01:09:46] I think so. I think so, because the language that I read is that I wouldn't believe this myself if I wasn't here. Things could not be this bad, but I'm here and I see it. And, and the fact that he, there's a couple of things, John, that he, Benson comes back to again and again and again throughout his life. And we're talking about a guy who was in a church ministry for half a century and his time to war torn Europe is certainly one of those. And the other thing that he comes back to again and again and again is when he's in the Eisenhower cabinet, he, President Eisenhower sends him abroad to central Eastern Europe and he also goes to the Soviet Union. And this would have been 1959. And so Benson talks about that over and over and over again throughout his ministry for years after the fact. What it was like visiting behind the Iron Curtain and looking at communism up close and personal and talking about how destitute these people were. And then also on the other hand, boasting about how good capitalism is and the kinds of goods and services that we get from our system of government as capitalists. And it's those two systems that really just are forever etched in his mind. And you'll see them throughout his many sermons.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] Yeah, there's. If you don't mind, Matt, turning to pages 24 and 25 of your book, there's two other quick themes I want to cover. One, if you'll read the passage that's a, that's a quote about coercive systems towards the bottom of page 24. I, I, I, I could, I'm sorry that I'M bringing this in. Sometimes I bring my own stuff in. But as someone who's been excommunicated from the church, as someone who sympathizes or empathizes a lot with sometimes how the church becomes a little bit too controlling or coercive, I found it ironic about to, to read about his passion about coercive systems and then to sort of contemplate that in the context of how I and maybe some others have sometimes experienced the church itself to be a little bit coercive. And it's not, I'm not trying to like poison the well, but I just. It does inform his views about communism, but it also, I want people to also be thinking about the church. So will you read that little passage?

Matt Harris [01:12:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] Real quick.

Matt Harris [01:12:09] So the scene is. This is a comment that Elder Benson makes in General Conference in 1948. So he's been an apostle for I guess approximately what, five years at that point and he's been home from Europe for two years. So that's the context. This is General conference, April of 48. We see abroad in the world an increase in these coercive systems. We witness millions of God's children in bondage who have had their blessings of liberty and freedom taken from them. Great numbers of liberty loving people no longer have their free agency, no longer have freedom of choice such as we enjoy here. They no longer have the privilege of living where they wish, taking advantage of any educational or work opportunity. But on the contrary, they are under the power of these coercive systems and have lost completely their God given free agency.

John Dehlin [01:13:05] I think that's just important for us to think about his later opposition to, to communism and that sort of thing. But I also, I, I wonder if he ever contemplated the possibility that the church he was a major leader of could also be experienced as coercive. And then maybe he even sometimes participated in some of the coercive natures of the church.

Matt Harris [01:13:30] Well, I guess I can comment. I mean this is. Benson doesn't really strike me as reading his journals, his letters, his diaries, his associations, how other people characterize him. He doesn't strike me as being somebody as self reflective about how his behavior affects other people. And what I mean by that is I don't like using this cliche, but I think it works. I mean for Elder Benson, the tent is extremely small. The tent is small. He doesn't really want to accommodate people that think differently from him. Hugh Brown for example, is a great example, right. You have this liberal Canadian born in Salt Lake but spent his formative years in Canada. And he just didn't grow up on a farm like Benson did in Whitney, Idaho, wasn't part of the Intermountain west, and had a different life experience and therefore didn't have the same political views or leanings that Benson did. And for Brown, the tent was much bigger, but for Benson, it was small. One quote, I think would illustrate this. Benson wrote one of his friends in the early 60s, 1966, he said, one of his friends, I'm getting ahead of myself. It was Joseph Fielding Smith. He wrote a letter to Joseph Fielding Smith, who was then the most senior apostle or second most senior apostle to David O. McKay. And he said, dear President Smith, I don't feel inclined to make the church a place for liberals, socialists or communists. So he was very frank about this. I don't want to make the church comfortable for liberal socialists. We don't want them. That's what he says. And I think it's important to know that not Everybody in the 12 feels this way. Even President Kimball, when he's the church president in the 1970s, he says very carefully, we want this church going to Northern Europe. Be careful what you say about communists and socialists, because some of those folks like socialism in particular. And be careful what you say about black people calling them cursed and whatever. It's hard to bring the gospel to black Africa, for example, if you're calling these folks cursed or less valiant. And so Benson didn't have that awareness about growing the church and how it would affect the growth of the church with this incendiary rhetoric about calling everybody a communist or a socialist. Harold Lee said something interesting. Apostle Lee, he said that everyone who disagrees with Benson is a communist. That's what Benson thinks. If you don't agree with me, you're a communist. And obviously there is some hyperbole there on Harold Lee's part, but there is a little truth to that, that if you didn't accept Benson's position on the world, then somehow you were a communist or a socialist or even the enemy. And one of the things that I think solidified this view for Benson was he got big for his britches. He went to Washington, he became this high profile government leader. He stays for two terms when the vast majority of Eisenhower's cabinet, they go home. And so Benson gets this really inflated sense of self that he knows what's going on. I was there. Just trust me. And some of the brother. And again, most of them are conservative. Most of them are not voting for conservatives or Democrats, but they're troubled by his just his provincialism, that somehow his rhetoric is okay when they don't think that it is because it's causing divisions in the church. And they see it because they receive letters frequently from Latter Day Saints around the church. When Benson would visit them on state conferences, most of his sermons are political. They were cloaked in the Cold War. He's talking about government agencies, government officials, and sometimes he would even name them by name that they're communists. And anyway, so they, they didn't like that. They thought it was harmful to the church. And I think you pointed out, as we started today, that Benson was able to do that because President McKay allowed him to do it. But when President McKay died in 1970, that's when Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold Lee started to change, turn things around.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Right? Let's bring in just a few comments from our, our live viewers just because it's so fun to have live viewers on YouTube and Facebook. Chris Tyler writes, this explains so much. My dad used to say, quote, liberals are one of the great evils of the world back in the 1980s. And I'm guessing Chris's dad was probably influenced a bit by Zap Benson, possibly also Fred Eaton. Hey, Fred. Fred writes, this is excellent backgrounding on Benson. Thank you so much, Matt. So people are really grateful for what you're sharing, Matt. So thank you. Also, listeners, if you want to share this stream on Facebook or on social media, it'd be great to let everyone know that Matt's freaking amazing, that this book is amazing and we can get as many viewers and listeners as possible. That'd be great, Matt. Let's also jump at the end of your book. It's so fun because you tie Ezra Tap Benson to Tara Westover and Educated to the Bundys to the Preppers to Julie Rowe to Glenn back. It's so fun. We'll get there. But all of that ties to the White Horse prophecy. And on 25, you introduced the White Horse Prophecy. Do you mind just covering that really quickly, just letting our listeners know what that is, and then we can weave it in later? But I don't want to miss that since it's, it's here.

The White Horse Prophecy and Political Theology

Matt Harris [01:19:06] The White Horse Prophecy was a prophecy that Joseph Smith had uttered in the 19th century, and it was uttered by Brigham Young and other subsequent presidents. And some folks have said that Joseph Smith really didn't say it because it was secondhand or, you know, there's some, I guess, uncertainty about the context in which the prophet Joseph Smith said it. But anyway, it was taught for a long time. And in 1918, Heber J. Grant gave a sermon in General Conference, and he said, this isn't doctrine. And the doctrine that had been taught to that point or the teaching that had been taught at that point is that the elders of the church, the elders, meaning the men of the church, the men who hold the priesthood, that somehow the conditions in the world will become so rife with corruption, with turmoil, that the government will collapse, and it's the priesthood holders of the church, the Elders of Zion, the Elders of Israel, they will step in and save the Constitution from impending collapse and doom. And this has been talked about, it's been prophesied. And during the New Deal and the Great Depression, this idea that the elders will save the Constitution becomes really, really seminal. Because truly, Americans think that their government's failing them with the Great Depression, with the unemployment rates being so high, suicide rates are high, desertions, divorces, all of this stuff. And so General Authorities and Conference are talking about this with increasing frequency, even though the church president said like 20 years earlier it wasn't church doctrine, they're talking about it. And when Joseph Smith taught that the elders would save the constitution in the 19th century, of course he didn't have socialism and communism in mind. But the Brethren in the 1930s will apply that prophecy to their current conditions, which is socialism and communism and all of this stuff. And so Benson, as I write in the book, really becomes the apostle who talks about it the most during his ministry. He's not the only one, but he talks about it with increasing frequency. And I'm frequently told by people, it's really interesting. I'm asked by people, you know, it's not church doctrine. Some people who have read up a little bit will say, and I'll say, you're right. And then I'll turn the question around and I'll say, what does that mean to you? That it's not church doctrine. But yet Elder Benson and others had continued to teach it well into the 20th century. What does that mean to you? Does that mean that he's teaching false doctrine? Then that's something that they don't want to admit, right? An apostle teaching false doctrine. That's a clicheist phrase that Mormons use often. I don't like the term. I don't like the term anti Mormon or false doctrine. But nonetheless, when they say that it's not doctrine of the church, this white horse prophecy, how do you reconcile the fact that so many people taught it, including Ezra Tab Benson for so many years, what does that mean? But the whole idea was, is that Latter Day Saints have this unique position the world to save the Constitution. And you'll see this at various points throughout history. You'll see this during the American Civil War, Brigham Young prophesies about this. The Elders of Zion will save the Constitution after the north and the south have exhausted each other during this tumultuous war. You'll see this during the Cold War where Benson really amps up this white horse notion during the Cold War. You'll see it with Glenn Beck in Barack Obama that the Elders of Zion will save the Constitution because Obama's the enemy. And you'll see it in the early 2008 or 9. There was this governor candidate, gubernatorial candidate in Idaho, a Latter Day Saint man who was telling some of his people as he was Latter Day Saints as he was campaigning. I want to have a private meeting with just Latter Day Saint priesthood holders. Now think about that for a moment. A gubernatorial candidate who wants to have a private meeting and only Latter Day Saint priesthood holders are invited to attend anyway, so they do attend. And he talks about the White Horse prophecy. Clearly it's a ploy to get votes for him that he's supposed to save the Constitution. And when the church heard about this, this is in 2007 or 8, they issued a public relations release saying, look, we don't believe this stuff, let's get away from that. So anyway, that's the White Horse prophecy and it's not fashionable among the church today, but there are still some people who continue to teach it.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] But it's probably pretty fair to say that Benson viewed himself in that light. Is that fair to say?

Matt Harris [01:24:10] In what light?

John Dehlin [01:24:11] That maybe he was helping to fulfill that prophecy.

Matt Harris [01:24:15] Oh, absolutely. There's no question about it. And Orrin Hatch, when he ran briefly in the Republican primaries in 2000, he talked about the White Horse Prophecy a little bit. Cleon Skousen, who was friends with Orrin Hatch, talked about the White Horse prophecies much as Benson did. And interestingly enough, when Mitt Romney was flirting with a presidential run in 2008 and 2012, reporters asked him about the White Horse prophecy. And Mitt Romney didn't want to touch that with a ten foot pole. He just deflected and said, I don't know what you're talking about, which is crazy because he did.

Benson in the Eisenhower Administration

John Dehlin [01:24:56] Well, maybe Matt is time to jump to Benson's time in the Eisenhower administration. And, and does that sound right to you?

Matt Harris [01:25:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:06] Okay. And as we do that, I just had the thought come into my mind when Were the smoot hearings like 1908,

Matt Harris [01:25:13] around 19, much earlier.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] So I mean, just to kind of put this, to kind of put this into context, around 1908, like Utah was trying to become a state. It was, you know, B H Roberts, I think, was elected as a senator, but he was not seated. You know, Smoot, the president of the church is like trying, sorry, Joseph F. Smith, president of the church at the Smoot hearings is, is trying to get the church legitimized. You know, that's just like you fast forward what, 40, 40, a little more plus years. And Benson is, is in the cabinet. And I, I, maybe that's an okay place to just say, to start by just saying this is pretty significant that a Mormon, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is in the Cabinet in that short of a period of time. And I guess to me that it's a pretty big deal.

Matt Harris [01:26:11] Yeah. And when, so I think go back just a little bit about how he got in the cabinet, that, so by this point, by the early 1940s, Benson has been in Washington for, as the National Cooperatives Executive. And so he has this, this name now among national leaders in terms of his farm policies, his grasp of foreign policy. And he's got this great reputation. And Eisenhower never heard of him. And it was Benson's distant cousin, Robert Taft. This senator from Ohio, one of the most powerful senators at the time, puts a bug in Eisenhower's ear, as does Senator Arthur Watkins, a Republican senator from Utah. So both Senator Taft and Senator Watkins, they tell Eisenhower, hey, look, you got to consider this Benson guy. He knows foreign policy. He was going to run with or he was going to be on the ticket with, or in the Cabinet with Dewey, but obviously he didn't win, but you had to consider him. And so word gets back to Benson from Senator Watkins actually, that Eisenhower might consider you. So be prepared if the call comes. And Benson was at byu, I guess, giving a devotional address or something when he, of course, they don't have cell phones in those days. And so he gets a word that, hey, the President Elect Dwight Eisenhower is trying to reach you. He wants to reach you. And so Benson takes the call, gets to a place where he can take the call, and Eisenhower says, I want you to come to my headquarters immediately. And this is in New York City. And so Benson of course goes to David O. McKay, the president, whom he adopted doors, by the way, and just really the adulation there is off the charts. And he tells President McKay, what do you think? And McKay says, you have my blessing. Didn't even think twice about it. He said, you have my blessing. And so Benson goes to meet with Eisenhower. And Benson. This is one of the reasons why I'm going to be honest. I don't care for his politics. We can talk about that later. But this is one of those moments where I can resonate with Benson. I really. I respect this. And that is. He tells Eisenhower. He's so sincere. He said, why do you want me? I didn't even vote for you. He voted for somebody else in the

John Dehlin [01:28:40] primaries because it was his cousin, right?

Matt Harris [01:28:43] He voted for his cousin. Yeah, yeah. Robert Taft.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] Yeah.

Matt Harris [01:28:46] So he said, why do you want me? I didn't even vote for you. You know. So in this moment of clarity, complete sincerity, I didn't even vote for you. So Eisenhower says, no matter. We need you. I need a churchman. He tells him. That's the word he uses, a churchman, which is synonym for minister. You can help me with the religious people. Plus, you're a farmer. I need somebody from. He says, the Midwest. Not that Utah's the Midwest, but anyway, I need somebody from the Midwest. I need a churchman. And so Benson interviews him, and they talk about politics. And Benson's in awe of him, by the way, Benson's completely in awe of him. He's a World War II icon. At this point, he's running for the presidency. Eisenhower was the former president of Columbia. I mean, he's an incredible human being. He's one of those guys that you walk into the room and he commands respect. And so Benson was in awe of him. And so they talked, and Benson found him affable. And Eisenhower found Benson affable. But Benson doesn't want the job. Benson learns in the moment he doesn't want the job. And he writes later on, he says, I was happy. There was nothing more fulfilling for me than being an apostle in my church. And, well, why does he change? Because Eisenhower was not about to let him leave the room without Benson saying, yes. And, well, he changes, or he changed. When Eisenhower looked Benson in the eyes and he said, you said a minute ago that your church needs you while your country needs you even more. And so Benson later wrote that I couldn't refuse that. How could I argue with that, that my country needed me.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] You can't refuse to serve America. Close quote.

Matt Harris [01:30:33] Thank you. Thank you. I hate to always quote verbatim.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] No, I love to quote verbatim because it's such a great book.

McCarthy, Loyalty, and the Wolf Ladejinsky Affair

Matt Harris [01:30:40] Oh, good. Thank you. Because I think that. Yeah, the exact Quote is certainly more powerful than my paraphrasing. Anyway, so you can't refuse to serve America. And so for Benson, that did it. But what's interesting about this is that this is during the Cold War, and there's a lot going on. In 1953, there's Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, this couple who had been executed just a few years earlier for selling secrets to the Soviets. There was a guy named Alger his who is in the State Department and also the Agricultural Department. And it comes out that he was selling secrets to the Soviets, too, Even though he denied it. He's arrested. And so Benson is coming to Washington during this incredible era of McCarthyism, or a red scare, as historians call it. And Benson insists that he has an FBI, a background check from the FBI. And what's interesting, it wasn't required in those days, but Benson demands an FBI check. I want you to do your due diligence, make sure I'm the guy, that I don't have any, you know, bones in the closet. And so they interview Benson's closest associates, both from the national cooperatives and also from three apostles, I think, or two or three apostles from the Quorum who knew him well. And they don't. They don't use the names, but I have his FBI file. And they talk about what that private FBI report yielded, that he was a great public speaker and people loved him, and more importantly, that he was a loyal American. He was intensely patriotic. That's what the FBI report yielded. Well, Benson, before he moved his family to Washington, D.C. in early 1953. A few weeks before that, he got a special blessing From David O. McKay and J. Reuben Clark, probably the two men in church leadership that he admired the most. And in this special blessing, they set him apart, which is interesting. That's kind of like Mormon speak for, we're going to put our hands upon your head, give you a special blessing, and call you into a leadership position in the church. Well, in this case, we're going to set you apart as the Secretary of Agriculture and give you all the blessings and rights thereto. And one of the things they tell him is that we want you to be vigilant against communism, be vigilant against the government. They don't use the word liberalism, but maybe that's what they mean. And Benson takes this as his apostolic calling, that most apostles feel like they have some kind of purpose for which they're supposed to do in the Quorum. Well, Benson's purpose is to guard against communism and big government. Two heads of the Same coin. And that's what he takes as his command, his marching orders from the church president. And that's what he does when he goes to Washington. And that's what he will do for the rest of his life. He'll never abandon that mission from that blessing in November of 1952 from the church president.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] Yeah, One thing your book mentions as soon as he gets into the department is he implements a surveillance program. And this something, this follows him as well because, you know, in the 60s, there's the whole BYU spy ring, but again, it's this coercive systems thing. He's really against coercive systems, but he seems to also be for some of the tactics or techniques used by coercive systems. Is that fair to say or not?

Matt Harris [01:34:14] Oh, yeah, there's no question about it. But keep in mind the context. So he goes into Washington during a period in America, history called McCarthyism. And just to remind folks, maybe from some of your listeners might not have. Well, some of your listeners are probably not from the United States and might not know this at all, but Joseph McCarthy was a senator, a United States senator from Wisconsin. He was up for reelection. And they have different senatorial ranking services in this country. And Senator McCarthy was ranked 100. That is, he was the least effective U.S. senator according to this agency. And going into an election year, that's not the publicity you want to have. And so he needs this sort of. He needs something to boost his stock among his constituents. And so what he does is he contrives a series of stories that Communists have infiltrated the US Government, the US Military, churches, schools, you name it, businesses. And so when McCarthy is making all of these reckless allegations, Dwight Eisenhower is beside himself. Who is this nut? Should I say something? And Eisenhower doesn't say a whole lot about Senator McCarthy, but privately he's moaning, this guy's a nut. He's a lunatic. And the reason why he doesn't say anything is because it's all about politics, right? He doesn't want to turn off some of McCarthy's supporters who may vote for Eisenhower. But McCarthy crossed a line when he accused the US military of being infiltrated by Communists. And that's when the US military decided to hold hearings and they exposed Senator McCarthy for the fraud that he was. And Benson is influenced by Senator McCarthy. He calls him a rough, blustery type of man, but he clearly has taken in that there are Communists within the US Government. And to be fair to Benson, Eldridge was in the Department of Agriculture at one point, and he was A Communist agent, there's no doubt about it. And he denies it to the day he dies in, I think, the early 90s. But we have documentation now that he was in cahoots with the Russians. So this wasn't entirely contrived. Unlike the reckless allegations that McCarthy had been making, his was a Communist. And Benson writes about this frequently. He says, quote, the first Communist cell in the US Government was in the Department of Agriculture with Alger Hiss. So Benson will be presiding over a government agency or bureaucracy that was, according to Benson, was the first known case of espionage in the US Government. So that part's real. And anyway, so ike doesn't like McCarthy, but Benson doesn't like his methods and his tactics. But he thinks that McCarthy's onto something. And so he sets up this spy ring or this surveillance ring when he gets into the government. And there's. I'll tell you right up front, there's only one casualty in this spy ring. It's not much of a spy ring or a surveillance system. One casualty. But it's a government bureaucrat named Wolf Legiski. And Wolf Lazinski was in the Department of State and the Department of Agriculture for a long time. And he had meritorious marks. He was always given good marks for his service. The reason why Benson went after him is when they decided to transfer Wolf Lazinski from the Department of State to the Department of Agriculture. And Benson was highly suspicious. Wolf Lazinski was a Russian born Jewish who had been in the United states since the 1920s, but he had family back behind the Iron Curtain, that somehow, because Wolf Lazinski was from Russia initially and still had family in Russia and would occasionally visit his family in Russia, somehow Benson thought that he was aligned with Communism rather than the government and capitalism. And so this is really a fascinating story. Is that so? Benson basically says, we're not going to accept him, he's fired, we don't want him, he's a Communist. And this is happening during McCarthyism. And it's incredibly reckless for Benson to say this without any evidence because Americans are already on edge with Senator McCarthy and his reckless allegations. And now you have this new Agricultural Secretary saying the same thing. And so there are some senators, US Senators, who speak up and they say, we defy Secretary Benson to put his money where his mouth is. Where's the evidence that this man's a Communist, that he's gone back to Russia and done things inappropriately with Communist leaders, and that he's spying and all of this stuff? And Benson, this is horrible public Relations. And Eisenhower is caught in a really tough situation. He wants to be loyal to his agricultural secretary, but he also knows that this is just, there's nothing there there. This is just smoke and mirrors. There's no evidence for any of this stuff. And so Benson, when he meets the public, he tells the journalists who were just badgering him relentlessly. He says that, he says it's in an FBI file. All the evidence of his communist connections are in an FBI file which you are not permitted to see. So he pulls this high handedness. And so when I started reading this during writing this book, I thought to myself, well, here we are in 2000, whatever it was, 17, 18, I bet I can get the FBI file. Let's have a look. And so I filed a Freedom of Information act request and within two weeks I got the entire Wolf Lejinski file. Cool.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] So cool.

Matt Harris [01:40:04] And there is nothing in there. He has no communist connections. He has been given meritorious remarks for his government service in the State Department. John Foster Dulles, who was the Secretary of State, so he was in the cabinet with Ike Benson. John Foster Dulles says in the FBI file, Wolf Legiski is a good American patriot. He's legit. They also had a few of the articles that Laginski had written. He's a PhD, he was an academic professor of agricultural economics prior to his government service. And he had written a series of articles criticizing the Soviet collective system. Not only was there zero evidence that he had communist ties, he had been rioting against collectivism. He had been given meritorious remarks from Secretary Dulles. And Benson was just, he, he was, he was caught with his finger in the cookie jar. What do you do? How do you save your dignity when you've made these reckless allegations with McCarthyism and in that backdrop. And so Benson Eisenhower puts the squeeze on him. He says, look, you got to make this right. So to Benson's credit he, he, he says I made a mistake publicly to the journalists. He doesn't have these ties. But what's interesting is in his memoir is Benson will publish his memoir, 1962. So this is just after he leaves the government service. And so this would have been the stuff that we're talking about right now, would have happened in 54 and 55. So seven years later he writes his memoir after he leaves government and he doesn't apologize. He basically still clings to this idea that Wolf Oginski was a communist. And he says that the liberal press had come after me and basically implying that I had to back off because of the liberal Press. And in private letters that he writes to J. Reuben Clark, he maintains his original position that Wolf Wodzinsky was a communist. But he doesn't have any, doesn't have any, any evidence for any of these claims.

John Dehlin [01:42:21] Yeah, he, he wasn't always big on evidence with his claims. There were, there were a couple things that I thought were noteworthy about this Leda Jinsky case. So one was I, I wondered if there was some anti Semitism involved. Do you think that that's, there's anything there? Or maybe not.

Matt Harris [01:42:40] You know, that's a great question. So, so if I could just rephrase your question, John. Senator McCarthy was up for reelection and he had this incredibly poor record. And so he had motive to create these allegations to make him important so that he could get reelected. What were Benson's motives? Clearly it's not reelection since he's not an elected official. And were they driven by anti Semitism? Were they driven by this idea that Alger Hiss, who was in the agricultural department in the 1930s under Franklin Roosevelt, was it driven by that? And so I think it's important for your listeners to know that during the 1940s, Benson is pro Israel. He wants to create a Jewish state in Israel in The late, in 48, under Truman, he supports this. David O. McKay supported, supports this. And by the 1950s, Benson will start to traffic some anti Semitic literature with J. Reuben Clark. And as far as I know, they're the only two people among the high church leadership who have some strong feelings about Jews at this point. And President Clark is incredibly anti Semitic. And there's, if you read Mike Quinn's biography on Reuben Clark, you'll see that. And Benson and Clark will exchange a pamphlet that is incredibly incendiary against Jews. I mean, perpetuating all of these tropes that have been around since the late 19th century from a pamphlet called Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And what it was is there's a secret conspiracy of Jews that are controlling the banks. The Jews are responsible for World War I. The Jews are this, the Jews are that. And Clark sends him this pamphlet and then Benson sends him another anti Semitic track. So they're both sending each other different anti Semitic tracts, talking about this. And Benson is, he's extremely aware this is controversial because the anti Semitic tract, I think it's called, I can look in the book, but it's called Toward the Elders of Towards Zion or something, I'm sorry, I don't have the exact title. But anyway, Benson sends him his anti Semitic track and he's aware this is controversial because he has his secretary write President Clark. Secretary. And he says Elder Benson wants this back and right away. You know, we don't want this out there. This is just between Elder Benson and President Clark.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] It's Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Matt Harris [01:45:24] Well, there's two of them there. Let's see.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] Oh, sorry. That's one of them.

Matt Harris [01:45:27] What page is that? Let's go.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] I'm on 43 do.

Matt Harris [01:45:29] Yeah, 43. Okay, so there's two. There's two. So Elder Clark or President Clark will give, Will send Benson this track called Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's tremendously anti Semitic. Henry Ford, who was of the Ford Motor Company, used to recommend this tract. And if people know Henry Ford, he was an incredible anti. Semite. Jews are in government. They're going to. They're controlling government. Jews are communists. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Not just that they're controlling banks, but they're communists. And so this is what Elder Clark is sending Benson. And Benson sent him on page 43, just above A. A memo that he calls towards an understanding of communism, the power behind it and the power using it. And I'll just read a quick part of it. Benson's memoir says that, quote, that communism was established by Jewish and Zionist revolutionaries as an intermediate step to world power. As proof, Benson asserted that in 1909, the NAACP, the National association for the Advancement of Colored People, was established by Zion revolutionaries to spearhead the eventual integration of the white and the dark races. There's that black sexuality again, right? Blacks and whites integrating in the fear of interracial marriage. Benson further claimed that, quote, in 1933, the New Deal brought socialism to America under the expert tutelage of Zionist Berard Baruch, Felix Frankfurter and fellow traveling intellectuals. So what he's saying is that it's the Jews and some black people who are responsible for the spread of communism.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] And.

Matt Harris [01:47:15] And they're making their way into government. This is the kind of stuff that he and Benson are, or Benson and Clark are sharing with each other in private. They know it's controversial. And how does Benson come to these views when he supports the creation of a Jewish state in the late 1940s? And then less than a decade later, he's sharing, exchanging these anti Semitic pamphlets and memos to a high church official? I don't have the answer to that. That's a really intriguing question. And then later on, too, Benson will speak favorably about creating the BYU Jerusalem. So I don't know. I'M still thinking about those kinds of things and what Benson's views towards Jewish people were. But I do know he's sensitive about it. Not just because he wants this pamphlet back that he sent to President Clark, but because in 1961, there was a LDS congressman from California named Ken Dial. And Congressman Dial had accused Benson of being anti Semitic. I mean, think about this for a moment. An LDS congressman had accused. He's a very faithful Latter Day Saint, by the way. He's a practicing Latter Day Saint. And he accuses Elder Benson of being anti Semitic. And Benson writes him back a very sharp letter and he says, I'm not anti Semitic. I have a Jewish friend, the quintessential friend. I can't be. But anyway, I read that letter in the Eisenhower papers. A lot of these, some of this material that I'm quoting from is in the book, comes from the Eisenhower Presidential Library. And I was just, I was floored when I read this because I'm all. As a historian, I'm always thinking about is he aware of his behavior and what it's doing? And clearly he's these accusations. He's anti Semitic. This is a problem. He's aware of it. And we can just. A quick feeler to jump ahead and we'll get to in a minute, but Cleon Skousen is peddling some of the same tropes about Jews controlling the world and all of this stuff. So Benson's part of this right wing radical strand by the 1950s when he peddles this stuff because it's been peddled by other right wing folks for a long time.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] Yeah. So that. Thank you, thank you for giving us that overview and a preview. Another thing that was interesting, not just about the Leda Jinsky affair, but then also as Benson starts trying to implement his policies as Secretary of Agriculture. You know, you write that that, you know, people start throwing eggs at him, that he gets heckled. There's a lot of people that don't like what he does and something that's mind blowing. So there's two parts of this that are really significant to me. There's a part of the book that I want you to discuss where David O. McKay literally goes to Eisenhower and says, can you remove Benson? Which blew my mind. I mean, it was David O. McKay. I don't know if he was part of it, but like I'm thinking, you know, David O. McKay gave his blessing. Didn't he give him a literal blessing? Right.

Matt Harris [01:50:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:22] And then a few years later, he's going to Eisenhower Saying remove him. That's a really weird irony in terms of internal politics within the first presidency, the quorum of the 12. So I want you to address that, and then I want to address it in terms of Eisenhower's response and the loyalty that Eisenhower responded with, which then sets up the outrageous lack of loyalty that Benson shows to eisenhower in the 60s. But let's start with. With what in the world would make David O. McKay go ask Eisenhower to remove his own boy.

Matt Harris [01:50:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] From. From the Cabinet.

Matt Harris [01:50:59] Yeah. And then. Yes, that's a lot. There's a lot here. So.

John Dehlin [01:51:04] But it's fun, right? It's worth talking about.

Matt Harris [01:51:06] I'll say it is interesting. I'll. I'll tell you something. I'm going to give you a theory in a moment that I didn't put in the book, but I have a theory about how. Why I, Benson. Benson will turn on Eisenhower. And we'll. I know we'll get to that in some detail because I think it's worth hearing about why he turns on him. But Eisenhower is intensely loyal to Benson. Intensely loyal. And there's no question that Benson is by far and away the most controversial member of Eisenhower's cabinet. And to be fair to Benson, I always feel like I have, as a historian, I always try to be fair. It's so easy to take shots at people against their politics that you don't agree with or believe in or whatever. But to be fair to Benson, he probably has the most difficult job to do in Eisenhower's cabinet, which is, I want you to roll back New Deal and Fair Deal subsidies that farmers get. Fair Deal is the Henry Truman domestic program. That's what it was called. And the New Deal is Franklin Roosevelt's domestic programs. And both of these domestic programs are giving generous farm subsidies to people who need them because of drought conditions and other issues. And so Eisenhower makes it clear to Benson, look, I want you into the Cabinet because I know that you don't agree with these farm subsidies, and neither do I. We're on the same page here, and I support you 100%. And Eisenhower is a smart guy. I'm sure he knew that Benson was walking into some difficult situation territory. I mean, think about this intuitively for a moment. If you're used to getting a check every month from the. If you're a farmer and you get a check from the government every month, and all of a sudden you get this new agricultural secretary who says that, hey, look, we're going to cut your check in half and eventually do away with it. Altogether. Oh, my goodness, you're going to get pushback. And when Benson would start to float some of these farm policies as he would tour the Midwest, farmers would show up and they'd throw eggs at him, and they would just heckle him and curse him. Latter Day Saints would write him letters. And I know you're an apostle and I support you as an apostle, but I don't support what you're doing. Even J. Reuben Clark writes a memo, not to Benson, but a private memo, and he says that Elder Benson's farm policies are a disaster. That's what he says in private, which is interesting, because I'm sure that Benson never knew that, that Reuben Clark, his mentor, felt that way. He thought he was a disaster. And so Benson's really put in this very difficult position of trying to scale back these farm subsidies, which he called socialized agriculture, which is one of the chapters of my book. He asked to scale this back, and Eisenhower left him, hung him out to dry. I mean, Benson is getting all of this negative criticism. And as the election of 1956 is approaching, Republicans everywhere, especially in the Midwest, are saying, ike, you gotta drop him. He is. He is. He's the third rail here. Things are awful. You won't get reelected as long as you have him, this albatross in your cabinet. And Eisenhower stays by him. He stays by him. David O. McKay. President McKay flies out from Salt Lake to. He's now in his 80s. So President McKay's a, you know, pretty elderly. And he says to President Eisenhower, hey, look, if you feel the need to release him, and we'll welcome him back home. And President McKay is feeling this, the negative publicity. And of course, his worst fears are coming true, that people are judging the church based on Elder Benson's farm policies. That's what they feared all along, and that's what's going on here. So McKay says that you can bring him home. It's okay. He served the first term. Bring him home. And Benson is a tough guy. It's something to admire about him. He's sincere, he's tough, and he is experiencing this internally. I mean, he's anguished over this criticism. He's an apostle. He's never been criticized. Mormons don't criticize their leaders. And he's never, never, ever had this kind of criticism before. And he's never been in public life before. So this is all new to him as well. He's never had to learn how to compromise, which is the art of politics. He's an ideologue. And his Ideological principles are really getting him in trouble. He's a laissez faire capitalist. The less government intervention, the better, which is the antithesis of government subsidies to beleaguered farmers. So anyway, he offers his resignation. I didn't know this until the late stages of my research when I was at the Eisenhower Library. I see the resignation letter. Dear President Eisenhower, I'm going to resign. I can't. It's not fair to. You're taking hits everywhere about me and how controversial things are. I'll resign. This is before the 56th election. And to Ike's credit, he pulls Ezra aside, Secretary Benson aside, and he says, I need you. I don't want you to resign. And he said the same thing to President McKay. I want him with me. And so he stands by elder Secretary Benson for a second term, even though it's enormously influential. And the vice president at the time was Richard Nixon. And by 1958, Richard Nixon decides he wants to run in 1960 for the election. And anyway, Nixon tells Eisenhower, he said, look, you got to get Benson out of here. I don't want him on the camp pain trail with me. I don't want him anywhere near me. And when I'm working with farmers in the Midwest, maybe you could send them to somewhere in Europe to get them out of the country. And that's what Ike does as a favor to Nixon, sends him abroad so that Nixon could start the campaign by 58, 59. So anyway, he's enormously controversial. Eisenhower stands by him despite the enormous controversy that it creates. And then the million dollar question becomes, of course, is when the second term is over, Benson goes back to Salt Lake. Benson turns on him. The man that had stood by him for eight long, difficult years, he turns on his former boss.

Benson Turns Against Eisenhower

John Dehlin [01:57:26] Yeah, I hate that part. And the whole 60s is rife with this Benson, I think, coming unhinged.

Matt Harris [01:57:34] But quite frankly, it makes me angry that he would. Would do this, that he would turn on the guy that. That had his back. That had his back. And he had every right to. To say, okay, Elder Benson, you understand politics. Rightly or wrongly, you know, you're kind of controversial. Your church president wants you home. You've got my blessing. It happens all the time. So it wouldn't be like, you know, this is unique, to lose a cabinet member. I don't know. I can't remember the numbers used to know this. But the vast majority of people in a first term presidential cabinet do not stand for the second term for sure. And I think there were only two People in Eisenhower's cabinet who. Benson and some other person. It was like the post office, whatever. They stayed on through two terms.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Postmaster General.

Matt Harris [01:58:21] Yeah, something like that.

John Dehlin [01:58:22] Yeah.

Matt Harris [01:58:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] Well, that. Yeah, that. That's fascinating. And we'll get back to Benson sort of like just naming everybody as a communist conspirator in the 60s and 70s. Let's. Is it. Is it okay if we jump to Skousen starts to get introduced more substantively into the Astronaut Benson story during Benson's time in the Eisenhower administration. Should we talk about how that relationship kind of kindles and then augments during that time?

Cleon Skousen and the Far-Right Network

Matt Harris [01:58:54] Yeah, so there's.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] And if you want to give a little background on Skousen because he's phenomenally important to the rest of the story and to, frankly, to modern prepper, kind of super conservative Mormonism today.

Matt Harris [01:59:10] Oh, my goodness. Skousen is one of those guys that. That. Cleon Skousen is his name. W. Cleon Skousen. He. He needs a scholarly analysis.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] And there's no book on Skousen.

Matt Harris [01:59:22] No. And the reason why is that his son has all of the papers and won't make them available. I've got a big file in Styles and a massive file, actually. I have his FBI file, among other things. But his son has, I don't know, 19 different 3 ring binders full of his journals, diaries, letters. So that's where the golden goose is, is one of his sons still has it, and he's writing a biography on his father, which is great. It's fine to write a biography from a, you know, son, but certainly there's not enough detachment to do a scholarly appraisal of your father if it's your father. Right. You just can't do that. But I do think it's important for children to write about their parents because that becomes part of the record, but certainly not a piece of objective scholarship anyway. So Skousen is an interesting figure. He's not a very big man. He's a gifted storyteller, really. If you go on YouTube, you listen to him speak, he can just captivate an audience with his stories. He's witty, he's funny in some ways, I think he's charming. And he comes across as a nice person. Anyone who's ever met him, he died, oh, 10 years ago or so, maybe. I know my father met him once. I know some other folks have met him. Some of my old faculty at BYU knew him well when he taught at byu, but nice. He's a nice man. And so Skyl's in A quick buy on him. He's trained in the law. He went to, I think, George Washington University Law School. He went to work for the FBI in the mid-1930s, and he was only there for a short period. He wasn't a field agent or anything. He was just working in the FBI headquarters. And he leaves the FBI and he is recruited by David McKay, J. Reuben Clark and Ernest Wilkinson to go to BYU and to teach religion. Now think about his background, right? He's trained in the law, he's worked for the FBI, and now he's somehow qualified to teach religion. And just a quick antidote. When they don't have this faculty vote, you know, where they, like, today I'm a university professor. And so when we hire people, we do national and international searches and we hire truly the best person, and at least we try. But in those days, and we vote as faculty and all that stuff, but in those days, it was Ernest Wilkinson and the board sure hire them. And they really don't consult with the religion department at all. So when Hugh Nibley, who is a gifted linguist and a scholar of the ancient world, Richard Lloyd Anderson, also a scholar of religion at byu, and there was a third one, Sidney Sperry was his name, Old Testament scholar from the University of Chicago who taught at BYU Religion. So you have these three PhDs in religion in the ancient world. And they came unglued when they hired Skousen. And Richard Lloyd Anderson was an assistant professor. And he said something to Wilkinson. He said, what is my PhD good for? I went to Berkeley for 10 years for this. And you hire this quack. That's really what he was saying. But there's a whole. That's another whole story about how they're infusing, you know, people who aren't qualified to teach religion at BYU with people who are. And you still see that tension today. People who come up for the church education system ranks versus people who have legitimate credentials in the ancient world and scriptures and history, anyway. But they wanted him on the faculty because he was extremely conservative. And Ernest Wilkinson thought that there were some liberal people even on the religion faculty that needed to be counterbalanced with someone like Skousen. So by the 1950s, so he's hired at BYU for his conservative views and not because he has credentials in, you know, the scriptures or Old Testament, New Testament, things of that sort. So when he's at BYU, David O. McKay said to Skousen, our youth are not being taught about communism and how dangerous it is. Can you write a book about it? And so Skousen is asked by the church president to write a book about communism. And this book, David O. McKay will endorse this book called the Naked Communist. He'll endorse this book in General Conference in 1959, U.S. news and World Report and Time magazine, they talk about this book. So this isn't just a big book in Mormon circles. Skousen has the attention of national magazines with tens of thousands of readers who can read about his book. And so they start to buy it. It becomes a bestseller not just among Mormons but also among Americans in general. And there's a second book that's published on anti communism just about the time, actually within months apart of Skousen's book on the naked communist. And it's by J. Edgar Hoover, the long standing director of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And Hoover was just an icon at that point. He'd been in the bureau since I think 1922. And so by Benson's service in the 50s, he had been in the Bureau for some three decades. Anyway, J. Edgar Hoover had also written a book, bestselling book called Masters of Deceit. And so the Naked Communist and Masters of Deceit were the two most prominent and notable anti communist books of the time. And Hoover's book talks about that. Communism is everywhere. It's in schools, it's in churches, in we have to be vigilant. He writes about how we detect who a communist is. And so he's saying things like this. And there's some definite conspiratorial overtones in Hoover's book Masters of Deceit, which he sends a personal copy to, to Benson, by the way. Anyway, Skousen takes it a step further that the Franklin Roosevelt administration, they're, that they're the ones who by and large started this stuff. Their whole government was full of communists. And he starts to point fingers. One of the men in the cabinet in the Franklin Roosevelt administration, guy named Harry Hopkins who ran one of the Alphabet soup New Deal programs. Harry Hopkins was selling secrets, American secrets to the Soviets. I mean, Skousen was just letting all the conspiracy stuff fly and no evidence whatsoever, none, but he was letting it fly. J. Reuben Clark, who was an extremely intelligent person, went to Columbia Law School in the late 19th century and those around him who work with him always called him brilliant. And I think he was in many respects. Anyway, J. Reuben Clark read Skousen's book and he said, quote, it was very entertainingly written. I'm not sure that's a compliment if you're trying to write a serious book, right? At least that's how I read it. Clark's like, yeah, yeah, whatever, Cleon. But anyway, President McKay is just taken in by this book enough so that he advertises it in conference, which general authorities rarely do. They don't really recommend books. Even in those days it was rare. They did, but it was rare. So this book becomes really famous and he tries to get it used at byu, into the curriculum. He wanted students in my old department, the History department, to read it. He wanted students in his classes and religion to read it. I mean, it's just, it's complete indoctrination dogma. But that's what he's trying to do. And there's Wilkinson supports it, Benson supports it, DAVID O. President McKay supports it. And then some of the more moderate faculty. I'm hesitant to call them liberal because they're not even liberals by our imagination today. But some of the moderate faculty are just really incensed by this guy named Dick Paul in the History department at byu. He thinks this is just quackery run amok. And he writes this incredibly lengthy, penetrating and detailed critique of the naked communist and says this is just right wing propaganda. And this is part of Skousen's FBI file too, this critique. And Ernest Wilkinson and some of the other brethren were upset by his. Dick Paul. Professor Paul's critique because they thought that it was an indirect jab at President McKay, because President McKay endorsed the book and therefore it has to be sacrosanct that you can't critique it, which is really, if you think about it, from our modern sensibilities. We're at a university, my goodness, you should critique anything, hopefully in a civil way, in a fair way, in a responsible way. But to suggest that you can't critique a book because somehow you're indirectly going to hurt the feelings of the person who recommended it. I mean, that's just crazy. But anyway, that's what some of them thought. And, and somebody asked President McKay about this, you know, what do you think about this, Dick Paul's critique? And McKay said something interesting. He said, well, there might be some errors in the book. There's. But he's more. He's. He's nearer right than he is wrong. Those are President McKay's words, that Skousen is nearer right than he is wrong. And Benson also promotes this in General Conference, the book from his friend Cleon Skousen. And Benson sends the book to President Eisenhower. He sends it to John Foster Dulles. I found a copy of the book in the Dulles Papers at Princeton with a letter that says, dear Secretary Dulles, my good friend Cleon Skousen wrote this book. It's a wonderful book about the situation in which we now find ourselves. Sincerely, you know, Ezra Taft Benson. So, so he's sending this book to all of his friends and for Benson, this is incredible stuff. Skousen also is touting his book on this anti communist speaker circuit in the late 50s. He speaks at the Hollywood Coliseum in Los Angeles before 25,000 people. And strident anti communist Ronald Reagan and Roy Rogers and some other Hollywood types are there too, talking about anti communism. So Skousen really has this massive following. And for your readers, I think your listeners, they might find this interesting that this is in the book too. But he, Skousen uses his connection working for the FBI in the 30s to his advantage. I know stuff that's going on that you need to know about. And so he sets himself up as this authority figure, that he's the right hand man to J. Edgar Hoover, that they've worked closely and that Hoover had confided in him about, you know, how deep and troublesome that the inroads that communists had made. So this is what Skousen sang on this national speaker circuit. And he's also saying it to Latter Day Saints, that he speaks to groups that he speaks to. And his FBI file, oh my goodness, it's several hundred pages. And people from around the country, Latter Day Saints and non Latter Day Saints, they write J. Edgar Hoover, hey, I just heard this guy named Cleon Skousen who says that he was your right hand man and that there are secrets that he's now sharing that couldn't be shared before. And is this true? Is this true? And the Bureau, they chastise him. They say these private Bureau memos, he is utilizing his former government position for material gain. They put it to sell books, to make money. And they also said it's categorically untrue that he was my right hand man. I didn't even know him. He had some lower, lesser position and he certainly wasn't at the top of the pyramid near the Director. So Director Hoover didn't know Cleon Skousen and they verified that his employment at the FBI was just for a very short window. So anyway, he was utilizing his former position in the Bureau to tout himself up as some authority figure about communism. And dozens of people, Americans, Latter Day Saints included, wrote the Bureau to ask about it. In the Bureau they wrote back and they said, look, we're not endorsing any book. He's. You should know that he's not friends with Hoover and so they, they rebuke him in a small way. But anyway, this book is controversial and Latter Day Saints are reading about it or they're reading it over the pulpit and general Conference. They're giving it as gifts to their friends. I mean, Skousen, I don't know how much money he made off of this book, but must have been a substantial sum because he's hawking it hardcore.

John Dehlin [02:12:30] Right? Yeah. And just while we're on it, you mentioned Dr. Richard is a Paul, right? It's Paul. It's spelled Paul, but I think it's pronounced Paul. He, he. He's near and dear to my heart because he wrote a book, an essay called what the Church Means to People Like Me. And when I was, when I was trying to be a liberal or progressive Mormon and, and carve space for progressive Mormonism back, back when I was in the church, he was a real influencer and he, he created this metaphor of the, of the Iron Rod Mormon and Leahona Mormon. And some people are more orthodox and some people are more symbolic or metaphorical. And he's basically outlining kind of stage three, Fowler Mormonism versus stage four, Stage five Fowler Mormonism. Anyway, love the guy. A real intellectual, a real beautiful human being. And I was sad to hear what became of Richard Paul once he decided to cross Skousen and Benson. Do you want to just briefly tell us what happened? Because that was. I was sad to read that.

Matt Harris [02:13:35] Yeah. Remind me. I've got a Paul story to share off that's not in my book that I think might be really fascinating.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Do you want to see? You can show that too, if you want.

Matt Harris [02:13:44] Yeah, okay. Let me show that first. I think we'll work backwards for a quick moment. Anyway, Richard Paul, I've worked in his papers in one of the archives in Utah and I came across some correspondence that from 1986 that Richard Paul had with Dallin H. Oaks, who's in the first presidency of the church today, and he is in line to be the next church president. So he's pretty important person. He was the former president of byu in the 70s and also he was a law professor at University of Chicago and Also in the 80s he was a member of the Utah State Supreme Court. So pretty distinguished person, lots of accomplishments. Anyway, Dick Paul taught Dallin Oaks at BYU in the 1950s as an undergraduate. And Elder Benson, or then President Benson, who was the church president, gave this extremely controversial address about Women in families. And it's. If I can just point this up, it's in this book, an essay that deals with women and gender, talks about some of this story. But anyway, it was to the mothers in Zion is what it was called and essentially is mothers, stay home, quit your jobs, take care of your families. Your kids are getting into trouble and you're responsible for it. I mean, I'm being a little crass, but that's essentially the gist of it. You have a divine role to stay at home and take care of and nurture your kids. And of course for Latter Day Saint women who needed to work, not for an extra bigger house or a boat, I mean we're just talking about putting food on the table, just making ends meet. This created a tremendous hardship for them. And you know, they want to follow the leader, the council of their profit. But on the other hand they have to pay their bills because their husband's not making enough money or, or maybe they're not married and. But anyway, it was those, those women who are married really is who he was speaking to. Quit your jobs, let your husband get a second or third job if need be. You take care of your kids at home. So anyway, Richard Dick Paul, Professor Paul, who's now retired, but he wrote Elder Oaks a letter and he said I just a series of letters actually. He said, I just read this talk, I heard about it. This is a disaster. This is going to cause harm to people, women who will heed the words of their prophet to quit their jobs and they won't be able to pay their bills. And not to mention fathers who

John Dehlin [02:16:10] are

Matt Harris [02:16:11] supposed to be the providers for their family, they'll have to get a second or third job to make up for the lost income. They won't be able to play a part in their kids lives. I mean, Paul was just really letting him have it. And Elder Oaks, who was then a junior apostle, he had been only an apostle for two years at that point. So he was called into the quorum in 1984 and this is 1986. And Elder Oaks writes him back and he says, I'm going to paraphrase, but I hear you. What do you want me to do? I'm a junior apostle and he's the church president. I hear you. This is a controversial talk. We're all aware of that. And I thought that was a really revealing moment about some internal church politics for a moment. But also some of the leaders who were intensely aware of some of President Benson's values coming to bear in 1986, you know, and this isn't 1950 anymore where the purchasing power was much greater. Dick Paul. So he, he wrote this criticism and Elder Benson for a long time thought that Paul was a communist and it had strong socialist leanings. I mean, I know that sounds funny because BYU is probably the most conservative university in the entire country in the 1950s and 60s.

John Dehlin [02:17:25] I mean it's ironic because Paul got his PhD from Berkeley, but Benson can't really hold that against Paul, can he?

Matt Harris [02:17:32] Fair enough, fair enough. They both went to Berkeley. One graduated, one didn't. But anyway, that's a good point. So Paul is a moderate Republican. And here you have this apostle who by now is moving into the senior apostle ranks. Benson's no longer the junior apostle who went over to Europe in 1945. He's now one of the highest senior ranking people. At least he's moving towards the top of the food chain by the early 1960s. And Dick Paul is a moderate Republican. And Benson says that there are socialists, a number of socialists at byu and he cites the socialists in the history and political science departments and he names Dick Paul by name. He's a socialist. We can't have socialists like Paul teaching here. And just again pause for a moment. He's a moderate Republican. That's what Paul, that's how he self identifies as a moderate Republican. So we have Elder Benson calling him a socialist. And he tells Benson, tells Ernest Wilkinson on three or four occasions, you need to fire him. He calls him by name, fire Richard Pol and those other like minded socialists on the faculty. And so they don't fire him, they establish a spy ring in the 1960s. And Ezra Taft Benson wants Ernest Wilkinson, his good friend from Washington D.C. days, he wants Ernest Wilkinson to hire his son Reed Benson to lead the spy ring. This is why you're going to hire him and create some title form. You can't say, you know, here's our new director of spy operations, Reed Benson, but create some title for him. But that's his job. He'll spy and he'll report back to you. He'll work with the students so that the students can infiltrate these classrooms and then turn and report to Reed, who will turn and report to Ernest Wilkins and Wilkinson who is extremely conservative. And even Wilkinson says, wait a minute, that's going a little bit too far.

John Dehlin [02:19:39] If Wilkinson thinks you're going too far, that's saying something.

Matt Harris [02:19:42] You're probably going too far. So he turns Benson down. And by the way, they're close friends. Wilkinson's a loyal member of the church. But it's not most of the correspondence. Dear Ezra. Right. Sometimes it'll be Dear Elder Benson, but oftentimes it's Dear Ezra. And I think that's an important distinction to make because Mormons, Latter Day Saints love titles. President this, Elder this, President that. And so to call Ezra Taft Benson Ezra, when he's an apostle, shows you that there's a level of familiarity. And the only other person that Benson, they called him Ezra was Robert Welch, the director of the John Birch Society. But anyway, so Richard Paul, they want to hire Reid Benson to spy on the alleged communists on the faculty and socialists. And by the way, Benson didn't make distinctions between communism and socialism. Certainly there are huge distinctions between the two, but Benson did not make the distinctions. So he would use the word communism and socialism euphemistically anyway, so Wilkinson said, no, we can't do that, but we will have aspiring. And they work with some students to spy on Dick Paul's class. They spied on in the class of one of my old teachers, a guy named Ray Hillam who taught international relations. And there was some other Stuart Grow, who was a political scientist. So there was a handful of guys they targeted. And so they. Dick Paul knew during the moment, somehow word leaked that this was going on, and the brethren in Salt Lake put a quick stop to it. They didn't think this was appropriate to have a spy ring of students spying on faculty and then turning and reporting to a senior apostle and also the university president. And anyway, so they shut the spy ring down. But Paul recognized right away that he was Persona non grata, that this was not a place where he could stay. So by the late 1960s, they made it uncomfortable for him and he left and he went to the, I think, University of Western Illinois, where he got involved in leadership, but he didn't want to leave byu, but he felt uncomfortable because of his speaking out against right wing extremism. And also, Paul joined a higher education labor union during the 60s. And of course, to Wilkinson and to Benson, joining a labor union was nothing short of, you know, bragging about being a communist. And so they really made it difficult for him to stay, given the fact that he criticized Cleon Skousen's book and that he joined a labor union.

John Dehlin [02:22:26] Yeah, High crimes. When you say made, I, when you wrote that in the book, made. Made his life miserable. Other than the spy ring, I was just wondering what they did, and it just makes me so sad. This Guy has a PhD from Berkeley and he's at BYU, which is not an upgrade. You know what I mean? And. And then you give your life and your career to the building of the kingdom, and then they give you. Then they give you the finger, they give you the boot, or they make. They harass you so much. Like, it's. Sometimes there's a loyalty problem and a respect problem in how we treat with people, how we treat people sometimes, you know, and it's also problematic that Benson just. If you disagree with him, you're a communist. And we'll get to that. But, I mean, there's no evidence of any communism on Paul's part. But. But you get labeled just because it's. It's like the Salem witch trials. It's like, oh, he. He hurt my feelings.

Matt Harris [02:23:27] He's.

John Dehlin [02:23:27] He's a witch, she's a witch. You know, she turned down my sexual advances. She's a witch.

Matt Harris [02:23:32] Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, this goes back to Elder Lee's, Apostle Lee's statement where Benson Lee said that anyone who disagrees with Benson's a communist. And that was clearly the issue. And the tent metaphor that I used earlier, that the tent is very small with Benson. It's not bigger like Hugh Brown's tent and Even David O. McKay's tent a little bit, but. Or Spencer Kimball's tent. So it's a very small tent. And so Benson, he. He made it pretty clear what kind of a university BYU should be. And he would oftentimes say to Ernest Wilkinson, we need to fire, you know, the socialists and teach the church teachings on economics. And Benson didn't understand there could be varying positions of even Mormon views of economics. Obviously, if you're a communist or socialist, you know, certainly there's no one in church leadership that would agree with that, but you couldn't be a Democrat. He had been talking about this for a long time. He'd been calling Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal communists. He'd call Harry Truman and his followers communists. And we'll get to. In a minute, he'll turn on his own people, calling Republicans like Eisenhower communists. So he has a very certain view about. He's a stubborn person, and if you don't agree with his view, you're on the outs and he wants you gone. And that's what's going on with Dick Paul. And Dick Paul, again, as a moderate Republican, is pushing back on this stuff. And he recognizes Dick Paul does that. He's walking on thin ice that you got to be careful how you criticize an apostle, a member of the board of trustees. You got to Be careful that your criticisms don't come back to the church president who's completely off limits when it comes to criticisms and the differences between President McKay, in my opinion, and say Benson, McKay was criticized some points along the way and certainly nobody likes to be criticized, especially from maybe an academic. But McKay didn't always take it personal like, oh, get rid of that guy, fire him. He wasn't that way. But Benson and Wilkinson were just, I mean, singular minded. They wanted liberals, not at byu. They didn't want them speaking at BYU and during the civil rights movement when they're coming under intense fire from accreditation agencies and from federal civil rights agencies to investigate them for not having any blacks at byu. They're just apocalyptic. They're trying to figure out how to satisfy these agencies and keep within federal law. And they realize they have to invite black speakers to campus who can actually present a different perspective to the student body, but yet they don't want somebody who's going to come and badmouth the church's race teachings. So a lot of this stuff puts them in a very tough position. But make no mistake, Ernest Wilkinson and Ezra Taft Benson had a very shared vision that BYU should be a bastion of right wing extremism. And people like Dick Paul, moderate Republican, Stuart Grove, moderate Republican who was a political scientist, they didn't share that view. And they wanted to have people come in from the outside who have different viewpoints, whether they're liberal, whatever they are. And Benson and other folks just didn't want BYU to be that. And I let your listeners can decide where that's at today. But I can only speak from my experience at byu, certainly that there were conservative speakers, more conservative speakers and moderate speakers at BYU when I was a student there in the early 90s. I got a bachelor's and one of my first master's degree there. So I was there for a handful of years. But we did have liberal people there and they didn't want people to come and criticize the church, which I get. Who wants to invite someone who's just going to sit there and do this to you? You're paying for this, really. But certainly invite civil, respectful people who can present a more liberal perspective to the student body. And I experienced that. I have really great memories of going to a lecture series where I could hear various thoughts about from liberal ideals and so forth. And I appreciated that because that was certainly part of my educational experience. But in the 50s and 60s you did not have that, by and large.

John Dehlin [02:27:50] Yeah, yeah, that's true. There are a Couple questions from listeners that really make an interesting point. I think the first one is Matthew. Matthew writes, ah yes, we have to root out socialism and instead teach the law of consecration. And then Amy Jo writes, any idea what Benson thought of the law of consecration? So I think that's a really important point. Is there any record of how Benson reconciled being so anti communism and anti socialism? But the fact that the founder of the church he belonged to was hugely into law of consecration and pooling everyone's resources, taking their money and then redistributing it. Any reflection on that on Betson's part or did he just continue the lack of insight?

Matt Harris [02:28:47] No, he talked about this. This is something that's been talked about for a long time of religious groups that have embraced these communal theories. And Mormons call it the law of consecration, but other religious groups called it something similar. But Benson would frequently distinguish socialism from the law of consecration by arguing that socialism was run by some evil government bureaucrat.

John Dehlin [02:29:11] Right.

Matt Harris [02:29:12] The law of consecration, of course is overseen by God's prophet. So that's the first distinction he would make. The second distinction he would make is that the law of consecration was not compulsory. People could volunteer their own material resources to the church without penalty. And whereas of course in communism, in communist nations you didn't have this totalitarian heavy handedness that required of it. So those are the two distinctions he would often make is one was led by a prophet of God, the other one wasn't, and the other one was compulsory and the other one wasn't. And that's how he sort of, you know, made sense of all of this.

John Dehlin [02:29:51] I mean if you read Joseph Smith getting revelations that Martin Harris needs to give them all his money, like, I don't know that it's all so non compulsory and voluntary. Sometimes there is coercion in the law of consecration, I'm guessing.

Matt Harris [02:30:05] Well, if your entry into the community is predicated upon supporting the prophet and his vision for the law of consecration, I mean, yeah, it's to hard to say it's not compulsory when it really is. Right, right. So yeah, but that was. But by that point the law of consecration was sort of, you know, Benson's born during the early 20s or 1899 when the church is going through this massive transformation from moving from this little tiny inner mountain enclave with polygamy in this, you know, rural community in the inner mountain west to this burgeoning on the cusp of a cosmopolitan church that is integrating itself into the modern society, you know, getting rid of polygamy. And recognizing that the church is growing in inner cities. And so we have to have policies for the church that will accommodate these different geographic locations. And Benson will live through all of this stuff. And so the church that he remembered as a boy and that his parents knew was not the church that he presided over in the 1980s when he was a church president.

John Dehlin [02:31:12] Yeah. Listener Oil Stories writes, how is the law of consecration not compulsory, especially after the temple vows? And she makes a good point. Like, you show up at the temple ceremony and law of consecrations right there, and you kind of don't get a chance to evaluate that commandment before you commit to it in front of all your family and friends. And so she makes a good point. A couple things I want to mention, just to close out our discussion of Skousen. I'm reading from your book. On page 45, you've got a couple quotes of what non Mormons thought of Skousen. I love this. You write, U.S. navy Judge Advocate General Admiral Chester Ward, who spoke with Skousen at anti communist rallies, described the Mormon provocateur as an, quote, unprincipled racketeer in anti communism. Close quote. And as, quote, money mad. Close quote. And as, quote, as one who, quote, is doing anything and everything to exploit the subject. Close quote. So I thought, I thought that was interesting that Skousen wasn't universally beloved outside of the Mormon circles and I guess the John Bircher circles. I also just want to note that, like, as I'm thinking about Skousen's book being embraced by an apostle, but then also being hawked not only in general conference, but, oh, I guess it was Benson's book that was, that was advertised in the improvement era later. But, but, but it's kind of, it seems almost similar to like in general conference, you know, last weekend, the church sort of like promoting a book that, that espoused QAnon principles. Today, like, it just seems it was so conspiratorial. It really is fake news. Like the Skousen stuff and the John Bircher stuff really is fake news. Just 30 or 40 or 50, 60 years ago. And it would be so weird to have like conspiratorial fake news openly promoted by prophets, seers and revelators during general conference. That just kind of blows my mind.

Matt Harris [02:33:29] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:33:31] it's kind of irresponsible. It's, it's great. I don't want to be too hard on these guys, but like, for people that we hold as prophets, seers and revelators, as special witnesses of Christ, Yeah, it feels super irresponsible that because so much of what all the tough stuff we've been experiencing the past 10, 20, 30 years, the fact that the church now is like 75% Republican in the US and, and Utah is the most pro Republican of all the states, all of it ties back to these decisions made in the 50s and 60s. And so I'm kind of frustrated that that happened.

Matt Harris [02:34:10] Well, you know, it's the, the church is interesting. I, I find myself, when I talk about Benson and right wing politics in the church and so forth, I always have to make a distinction, as I do in the book, that Benson's views are not conservative, they're radical. There's a big difference. Joseph Filney Smith and Harold B. Lee and others, those guys are conservative politically and theologically. Benson is a radical. Barry Goldwater, who ran for the presidency in 1964, who was one of the most prominent, influential US senators from Arizona at the time, he was a strong conservative. Anyone who knows Barry Goldwater knows how intensely conservative he was. But even Goldwater would say things about, oh, he's gone Too far, Benson, Dr. King is not a communist. Civil rights is wrong, Goldwater would say, but not for the reasons that Benson says. And even J. Edgar Hoover, when Benson called Eisenhower communist, he's gone too far. And so Benson, Benson's radical. And I don't, I get asked this frequently, but I want. Not all the brethren are this way. In fact, I don't know of anyone who's on record that I've seen of the apostles who thinks that there's a conspiracy in the government with government leaders, with Martin Luther King. They may oppose civil rights in Martin Luther King, but not for the same reasons that Goldwater did. Not because they think that he's, that Dr. King is in coots with the Kremlin, but, but because of, for other reasons. And so Benson is definitely in a league of his own, Wisconsin and others. And Reuben Clark was a conspiracist. So I'm trying to draw a huge distinction between being conservative and being a conspiracist. And I don't see that. President McKay is incredibly conservative. He's an anti communist believer. There's no doubt about it. He hates communism, but he's not a conspiracist. And at some point that we'll get into, we'll talk about that tension between he and Elder Benson with the John Burt Society. So Benson does move the church to the right, there's no doubt about it. And Latter Day Saints are Not Democrats, solely because Benson said not to be. Clearly there are some issues with abortion and immigration and gay rights that Latter Day Saints don't accept. But certainly Benson, who for years had indoctrinated the Saints against liberalism and the Democratic Party. He called the Democratic Party the precursor to communism, which angered Henry Moyle and Hugh Brown, both of whom were Democrats. And so he said all of these really outrageous, flamboyant things. And he was able to get away with it for such a long time because of President McKay. But I've heard of a couple of people on the inside, general authorities, who have said that the church would never call somebody as polarizing today as Elder Benson. They just, they just, they don't. Because they don't want that person to become the story and to inject their politics into, you know, their, their ministry, taking care of the needs of their people without having to tell them how to vote. And so they're very careful about who they invite into the Quorum. And some of the newer Quorum members, I, you know, they're, they're, I'm sure they were scrutinized for their politics, recognizing that these guys, you know, pretty moderate, I'm sure, I'm sure they're Republicans, but I would probably classify them as moderate. That's my guess. I don't know this, but they want away from radical conspiracists. They just don't want that in the Quorum. They don't think that's appropriate for the church body. And President Hinckley is the one of the first people to really try to move the church to more of a moderate, centrist point of view, away from the right wing clutches from the 60s and 70s that Benson had helped and Skousen had helped to spawn.

John Dehlin [02:37:56] Right. A couple of quick things and then we'll do a quick little break. First of all, I want to, I want to invite our listeners or commenters to make any comments about the interview so far because we're going to take a, just a super quick break. Let, let Matt take a little bathroom break and, and then we'll come right back to, to cover the rest of the book. But if anybody wants to put, put some comments or questions or statements right now in the feed, I'll read them as Matt, as Matt's going for a break. But Matt, I'm just gonna ask you a couple quick more questions before we close out chapter two. There's this important part in the book on page 48 where you talk about Brown versus Board of Education and what an important you know, moment that was in our country's history, you know, which is during the Eisenhower administration. It's during the time that Benson was. Was serving in the Cabinet. And, and I would love you to describe both, you know, what Benson's reaction to Brown vers. What was board of Brown vs Board of Education? What was Benson's reaction to it? How much did he care about it? And then what were his comments about it? And then I want to ask you just one more thing before we take that break.

Benson, Brown v. Board, and Desegregation

Matt Harris [02:39:12] Sure. So, sadly, Benson didn't comment a lot about the Brown case, having gone through his papers, both at the church history library in Salt Lake and also the. The. His papers at the Eisenhower Presidential Library. That's one of the things I looked and looked and looked for. And he didn't say a lot about issues that dealt with race relations, the Brown decision. He didn't say a lot about the Civil Rights act of 1957. And what he did say, though, was with the Civil Rights act of 1957, which created a government bureaucracy to enforce voting rights, that's essentially what one of the provisions of the act did, is that he said, he told Eisenhower, you're moving too quickly on this. You're moving too quickly. And I think that Eisenhower, that Benson wasn't in a position as the Agricultural Secretary to say, you know, you shouldn't do this, don't do any civil rights, because that was really moving outside of his wheelhouse, his lane. But he did tell the President, you're moving too quickly on it. And that's the same thing that they said about Dr. King in the. You know, at the same time, you're going too quickly. And of course, Dr. King writes a famous book called why We Can't Wait. We've been waiting. And the other thing is the Brown decision. So he doesn't comment directly because certainly it's controversial, even for the early 50s. And just for.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] What was the Brown case? Tell us about that.

Matt Harris [02:40:33] Yeah, yeah, you bet. So the Supreme Court in 1896, in a court case called Plessy v. Ferguson, this is after the American Civil War, The Supreme Court in 1896 said that blacks and whites could be kept separate as long as those separate facilities, like schools and restaurants and so forth, are separate but equal. So the court creates this division between separate but equal. And so the Court. The Supreme Court in 1896 legitimizes segregation by 19.

John Dehlin [02:41:01] So separate water fountains, separate schools.

Matt Harris [02:41:05] Separate but equal. That's the mantra here. And if you think about how silly that is, separate but equal really? You think you can have two schools that are equal? How much money will that cost the taxpayers? We can't even afford to keep the one school going now, let alone two. One for black kids and one for white kids. Anyway, it's just kind of crazy. But that's what the court says in 1896. And by the first part of the 20th century, obviously, there's a number of people who claim that, yeah, we've got separate facilities, all right, but they're not equal. The libraries, the schools, the restaurants, the. This. The water fountains, they're not equal. The white water fountain has a coolant system. The black water fountain doesn't have a coolant system. So one water fountains got cold water, one's got warm water. So there's nothing equal about any of this stuff. And so the idea is, how do you prove it? Do you. Do you go after the big elephant altogether, which would be segregation in all facets of American life, from restaurants to schools to zoos to swimming pools? Or do you just tackle something that would be the easiest to prove that it's. It's not equal? And they decided to go off a little chunk of the elephant, which is education. And so in 1954, the Supreme Court will overturn Plessy vs. Ferguson, and they'll integrate schools. And in the South, Americans are just livid because they've grown up their entire lives of all of these mythologies about black people. And they don't. They're dumb. They're. They can't control themselves sexually, all of this crazy stuff. And so Eisenhower doesn't like the Brown ruling. He hates it. He says in private, he says, ah, they made the court ruling, now let him enforce it. He's quoting a previous president named Andrew Jackson with Indian Removal. And so Eisenhower doesn't support it. And one of his aides tells him and says, Mr. President, you're the president. You're supposed to enforce the laws even if you don't agree with them. And that's what he does. And in Little Rock, Arkansas, they choose. They select nine of the smartest students to enroll on the first day of school. And the reason why they don't choose all of these, you know, African American kids in the area is because they want to push back on the stereotype that these black kids are dumb. They'll dumb down the curriculum. So they take nine of the smartest, the best, the brightest, the most studious kids, black kids, and they'll integrate them. And almost immediately, there's violence. On the first day, they actually call off the first day of class because of the violence. And this has been written about a lot. So anyway, one of the girls, black girls, doesn't get the notice and she goes to school anyway. But nonetheless, Eisenhower, against his wishes, he calls in the 101st Airborne Division to integrate these nine black kids into this hostile school, Little Rock High School. And for a year, with guns and bayonets, they take these kids into the schools. They go to classes with them. The only two places they don't go are the cafeteria and the bathrooms. Otherwise, they're with these black kids, trying to protect them from their racist classmates. Anyway, so this is what's going on with Brown. And Benson doesn't speak publicly about it, I would conjecture, because it's controversial. His boss doesn't like it. And Eisenhower is from Kansas. He hasn't been around black people. And so in many ways he accepts segregation, but he recognizes that the currents, the winds are moving against him and the country. And so he enforces the Brown decision. Many people in his cabinet don't say a lot about it. His Justice Department, of course, does. But somebody like Benson. Benson, just keep your mouth shut. You and the rest of the secretaries keep your mouth shut. And so Benson does. But what Benson does do, though, is he calls the Supreme Court, led by Earl Warren, who's a moderate Republican. He's an Eisenhower appointee, and he's one of the most liberal justices in the history of the Court. And Earl Warren's a moderate Republican from California, got a law background, but doesn't have a legal background, that is, he's a politician. And so anyway, Eisenhower puts Earl of Warren on that, makes him the Chief justice to help to compromise the other justices on the bench to get them to, you know, agree to some of this important. These important rulings that are the Court's starting to hear in the 50s and into the 60s. Anyway, Benson calls Warren a communist. He says it in speeches and he says it in private. So although he doesn't call the Brown decision, you know, say any bad things about the Brown decision directly, he's calling Earl Warren a communist. And I think that's instructive.

John Dehlin [02:45:46] Who did Dallin Oaks clerk for? Do you happen to remember?

Matt Harris [02:45:49] Sure. Earl Warren.

John Dehlin [02:45:51] Yeah. Right. So like, he's calling a communist, the same guy that. That Dallin H. Oaks chose to clerk

Matt Harris [02:45:59] for, you know, when Oaks. Jumping ahead for a sec, when Oaks was the president, they recruited Oaks. BYU was under significant legal pressure in the late 60s. And this is probably a conversation for a different time, John. But anyway, BYU was under significant legal pressure for racial integration, for recruiting both black students and white, or, excuse me, black students and black faculty. And also Title 9 issues that come out of the Civil Rights act of 1964, recruiting women, and not as secretaries, but as faculty. So BYU is under enormous legal pressure. And Wilkinson, who's a Harvard trained lawyer, is dealing with these federal investigations at byu, both for Title IX and also Title VII issues. Both deal with gender and racial discrimination at BYU. And so when Wilkinson retires in 1971, they wanted a lawyer, because this lawyer will accept or inherit this legal mess that Wilkinson has had to deal with to the very end of his presidency. And anyway, so they choose Oakes, which is an interesting choice because he was this fairly new professor. He hadn't been teaching very long at the University of Chicago, and he was in his, I think, late 30s. Don't quote me on that. But he was in his late 30s, I think, when he was recruited for the presidency. And Benson didn't support him solely because he clerked for Earl Warren. And Oakes, being the savvy guy that he was, he kept memos that he had written to other members of the board of trustees in which he said, look, I didn't support Earl Warren's policies. Here's my proof. When I was his clerk back in the day, in the 50s, I kept a record of this, that I didn't support all of this. And anyway, so he produced those memos when he was going through the hiring process. And I don't know. I do know that Benson opposed him. What I don't know is did Benson come around from these memos and support him vote, or was he outvoted? I don't know the answer to that. But clearly, in 1971, Dallin Oaks became the new president. Whether Benson supported him or not.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] Fascinating. Okay, last question for me about chapter two. And then we'll do a quick break towards the. Towards the end of Benson's time as Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower, he actually visits the Soviet Union. And this is, I think, during the time Nikita Khrushchev is, whatever, prime minister, whatever, of Russia, I don't know, president, whatever they call it. And so I have two questions. Is there anything you want to say about that visit or about Russia or communism? The Soviet Union, whatever. And then there's also this, this legend about. Isn't there kind of a famous legend about what was said to Benson that isn't true? But it's a legend. So anything you want to tell about that? And then we'll take a Break and then come back about chapter three.

Matt Harris [02:49:09] Let's find that legend in the book real quick so I don't misquote it.

Benson's Tour of the Soviet Union

John Dehlin [02:49:13] Okay, so I'm. I'm in chapter. I'm in page 50 and 51. Is that where you write about it?

Matt Harris [02:49:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] Okay, so I'm on pages 50 and 51. The book is Watchmen on the Tower, Ezra Tap Benson and the Making of the Mormon Rite. We're here with Dr. Matthew Harris, who is a professor of history at Colorado State University, Pueblo, and we're just thrilled to have him and all our listeners here. So, yeah, what do you want to tell us about his tour of the Soviet Union?

Matt Harris [02:49:46] Yeah, this is on page 49 and 50.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] Okay, 49 and 50.

Matt Harris [02:49:50] And so just a little context. Benson was asked to go on this massive tour of. Excuse me. To visit Russia and eastern Europe in 1959. So this is his second term in office. He's been in Eisenhower's cabinet for two terms now, several years. So he's an old seasoned pro. And so Eisenhower wants to have Benson go to Russia as well as other places, communist countries, and also invite Nikita Khrushchev, the Russian leader, to the United States. So it's kind of a tit for tat, a swap. Benson can go there and observe agricultural conditions and. And Nikita Khrushchev can come here.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] And Khrushchev, the guy that had banged his shoe on the podium of the United nations or whatever, or the saying, we will bury you. Right. Talking about America.

Matt Harris [02:50:45] That's correct. He's also the guy who's the Soviet leader in charge of the Cuban Missile crisis that has this dramatic showdown with John F. Kennedy.

John Dehlin [02:50:54] Yeah.

Matt Harris [02:50:55] So anyway, Khrushchev. So they work this out, and Benson thinks it's a bad idea. He just. Benson doesn't like to be around people that have different views than him. He just doesn't feel comfortable around liberals. He doesn't feel comfortable around Jews. He doesn't feel comfortable around black people in particular because he's never been around black people before. Living in Whitney, Idaho, where there aren't any black people. At least they weren't at the time.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] You said in your book the state of Idaho had, like, 25 people when he was. When he was born. I mean, something crazy like that, right?

Matt Harris [02:51:23] Like, yeah, that's crime.

John Dehlin [02:51:24] There were, like, no black people in Idaho.

Matt Harris [02:51:27] Yeah, yeah. One of the points I'm making in the next book that I'm writing now that I'm finishing on blacks and Mormons Since World War II is the apostles who are so against civil rights and all of this. They've never been around black people before. They absolutely don't feel comfortable around black people. They live in Arizona, they live in Utah. They're just, they're not significant black populations in those Western states. And so there's lots of examples where they do come in contact with black people. They're just like freaking out. They just. Anyway, so Nikita Khrushchev. So Benson goes to Russia and he makes a comparison of agricultural conditions. He talks about the jutted roads and how primitive life is in Russia. And of course he's juxtaposing that with American prosperity post World War II. And of course in the 50s, there's a lot of prosperity, at least economically, if you're a person of color in the 50s. These halcyon days that people frequently talk about with Norman Rockwell and white picket fence and mom and coming out to meet husband with the three little kids in tow with her white apron on as she kisses him when he comes home from work. That's the kind of Ronald Reagan America that Reagan frequently talked about. Well, if you're a person of color, that wasn't so halcyon. But nonetheless, that was a time that Benson's talking about. And so he frequently touted American prosperity and juxtaposed to the Russian way of living. It was just backwards. It was again jutted roads and cars and tractors that were old and dilapidated and they weren't as advanced as our American cars. So Benson frequently makes these observations. And he has this moving moment where Benson goes to a Russian Orthodox church. And this is of course Communist Russia. And so Christianity is tolerated there, but it's certainly not promoted. And so Benson goes into this Christian church and he worships with them. And this is a moving moment for him where he talks about them or talks with these people through a translator about their belief in Jesus. He tells them who he is. He's not only a member of the United States government, but he's also a high ranking Mormon apostle from Utah. And his heart bleeds for these people, aches for them, that they're not able to live their Christianity to the fullest extent because of the ironclad oppression of communism, which is antithetical to Christianity. Benson writes. He says, Benson says something like, they're materialists, which is what Marx was right. They like material things, these communist Russians. And that material ethos just robs them of any spiritual nourishment that they may get from Christianity. So he talks about this in his memoir, going there to their worship Service. And he. He also talks about that in general conference sermons in subsequent years, that this experience really moves him, going to this Russian Orthodox Church. But anyway, so after he goes on this two week tour to Russia and to other places in Communist Europe, Nikita Khrushchev comes to the United States. It's his turn. That was the agreement. And Benson is not happy about any of this. And Ike is doing it just for good public relations. This is during the Cold War. Ike is trying to promote better relationships between this capitalist superpower and this communist superpower. So that's really.

John Dehlin [02:54:48] And that's called diplomacy, right? That's.

Matt Harris [02:54:50] That's called diplomacy.

John Dehlin [02:54:51] Not necessarily an evil thing, right?

Matt Harris [02:54:54] That's exactly right. And it's the same thing that Nixon will do later on with the Chinese. You've got to be able to work with people with whom you disagree, which

John Dehlin [02:55:00] Benson also hates, by the way.

Matt Harris [02:55:03] Exactly. And so Benson doesn't have that kind of tolerance. He just doesn't.

John Dehlin [02:55:07] Yeah.

Matt Harris [02:55:08] So Khrushchev comes to the United States and Benson writes, this is on the bottom. I'll just read this for a quick second. To your audience, he says. Benson says, I still feel it was a mistake to welcome this atheistic murderer as a state visitor. This is what he writes in his memoir. He calls Khrushchev an atheistic murderer. So he's upset about it. And then Benson makes a comment after Khrushchev's visit that he will promote more than any other line of all of the sermons he'll give in general conference. And he also puts us in private letters to his friends, too. Benson will say, quote, you American, this is. He's quoting Khrushchev. Quote, you Americans are so gullible that you won't accept communism outright but will keep feeding you small doses of socialism until you'll finally wake up and find you already have. Communism will so weaken your economy until you fall like overripe fruit into our hands, end quote. And there's been some good work on, on that quote.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] So Benson is alleging that there was like this moment where Khrushchev, like, looks at Benson and says, here's my strategy. Almost like the evil, super evil guy monologuing, you know, to. To the hero. Right. About how he's going to destroy him. Is that what. Is that what Benson's alleging?

Matt Harris [02:56:34] Well, Benson's going to. Yes, Benson's going to. Communism is. Is. This has been books written about this, which is, where did the Russian. Where did their ambition end? Clearly, they wanted to control Eastern Europe, which was a border country. Eastern Europe had been the site by which the Russians had been invaded since the 19th century. So when you're a border country, it's important for the United States to have friendly relations with Mexico and Canada, right? Yeah. So it is with the Russians. They want to control Central Europe. This becomes part of post Cold War diplomacy. Who controls what? And the question is, did Khrushchev have his eyes on the United States somehow? If he had his way, was he going to try to communize this communist, this capitalist superpower? And the answer from the time is no. He didn't have the authority or he didn't have the money to do it, didn't have the army to do it. He didn't have the ambition to do it. He just wanted to control his border states. At least that's one segment of Cold War historiography. But Benson says further. So he implies that Khrushchev has his eyes on the United States and that you're going to fall, like, right. How's he word it? You're going to. That the United States will, your economy will be like overripe fruit into our hands. That somehow one day, eventually you're going to fall under communism. And Benson, there's no evidence that he says this. There's no evidence that he says this. And so it begs the question, why would he say this? Because it's such a powerful line. And the answer is, I think, is that he's trying to get people to take communism more seriously. And they know that it's a problem because they live in the United 1950s United States. They've seen Alger Hiss in the news, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg selling secrets, atomic secrets to the Soviets. They've seen those people in the news, but they've also seen Joseph McCarthy in the news in his bluster. And so Benson wants Latter Day Saints to take this seriously. And it's not coincidental that he starts to link all isms, liberalism, socialism, he links them all into communism and big government. And this becomes his rallying cry that any kind of government, whether it's a liberal democracy or socialist or communist, is oppressive to not just Latter Day Saints, but to Americans and people in general because it takes away their free agency, their ability to make God given choices about how they want to worship and live their lives. And so that's probably, I guess, one of the best ways I can explain why he might have used this to his advantage. As he's trying to get Latter Day Saints, he's trying to wake them up. That's a word he uses frequently in his sermons. It's a word that J. Edgar Hoover would frequently use. Wake up. And also the other one was this idea of being a watchman, that Benson would watch for dangers that would affect people and not just watch, but obviously propose solutions.

John Dehlin [02:59:41] Right. Okay. Well, anything else you want to say about his time with Eisenhower before we take a quick break?

Matt Harris [02:59:50] I don't. No, I don't think so. I think because we're getting into the meat next with the Birchers.

John Dehlin [02:59:56] Yeah, that's going to be fun. And the rebellion in the quorum and in the first presidency.

Matt Harris [03:00:02] I think that it's important for readers or listeners to know that we sometimes think that, oh, Benson went off the rails when he met the Birchers. But I hope that we're getting a narrative here that he starts to become radicalized when he's in Washington. He's hanging out with J. Edgar Hoover. He's exchanging these conspiratorial tracts about Jews and civil rights and the NAACP with J. Reuben Clark. So his friendship with Cleon Skousen blossoms. So the seeds are starting to get planted for this worldview.

John Dehlin [03:00:36] Yeah. All right, Matt, we'll give you a chance to take a little break. And what I'll do, don't go away, listeners and viewers, because the stuff we have next is just out of off the charts. Super cool. So, Matt, go ahead and take your break, and I'll just keep running. I'm going to go ahead and incorporate some of the comments from. From our listeners. And if any of you want to make some comments or ask some questions right now, I'll go ahead and share. So Glenn writes. Hey, Glenn. Glenn writes law of concentration was voluntary. Big difference. So he's talking about the fact that law of consecration was voluntary. But. But communism is involuntary. The only thing I'll say to Glenn is it's kind of voluntary law of consecration, but it's also very coercive. It's implemented in a very coercive way. You know, if you look at Joseph Smith having a revelation that Martin Harris needs to give him all his money and mortgage his farm, and I'm sure, you know, in the way that, like, you can't even today, you can't attend the temple wedding of your own child if you don't agree to the law of consecration in the temple and pay 10% of your income. Like, I know we're not living the law of consecration, but I don't think it's as simple as just saying that in a religious system like Mormonism that everything's voluntary. I think there are ways that the church leaders in Mormonism and elsewhere use coercion, the type of coercion, frankly, that Ezra Benson condemned the church can use to coerce its members to give money or to participate in various programs. Trent writes, I would guess that Benson saw the opposition to his radical ideas as validation that he was God's mouthpiece. That's the way paranoia works. That's a good point, Trent. We often, we often as as discriminated minorities get motivated by opposition and view it as a sign of our calling. Another comment from Michael Democratic Party is precursor to communism may have sounded outrageous at one time, but in recent years it is looking more and more plausible. Michael that's one point of view. Some people view the Democratic Party now as a precursor to communism. That's certainly the rhetoric that's being used today. Fox News elsewhere for those who are Republicans and who favor Trump, I don't think that the Democrats would necessarily characterize it that way. And there's rhetoric being used on both sides. So you know, here on Mormon stories, we don't, we don't try and integrate politics in a way to where we're telling you that we favor one side or the other, trying to get you to favor one side or the other. But I'm certainly not going to let either side's rhetoric hopefully dominate too much. Julie we love you Julie. Julie writes great information. So glad you're enjoying Julie. We love this stuff. Melanie writes gossip When I was attending BYU in the late 70s, the Benson granddaughters were the beauty queens around campus and would display their superiority of genetic hierarchy. Wow, that's fun gossip. Thanks Melanie, for sharing. Cecil or Cecile Shellman I'm forgetting how to, how to pronounce your name. Cecile, I'm guessing. But we love Cecile. She's been on Mormon stories before. And Cecile, I want to interview you for Mormon stories but she writes great interview so far. I worked for the church history department for a few years, have always been intrigued by LDS Church history and am learning a lot from you. So glad. And you're super smart, Cecile or so if you're learning a lot, then I'm complimented and very honored. Julie also writes this information gives me huge insight as to why my family dynamics are the way that they are. Yeah, the legacy of Ezra Tab Benson really does reach into the way families are right now. It influences things in so many ways and that's why this book is so important and that's why were covering it. So the book is Ezra Tap Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right by Matthew Harris, Watchman on the Tower. Ezra Benson has a massive influence, including just the fact that Utah is 75. 75 of the Mormons in Utah vote Republican. That that is directly traceable to Ezra Benson's legacy as an apostle and then as president of the church. Church. So we love Sam Pinson. Sam writes many bemoan that the US educational system has been turned over to evil progressives. I wonder when they think the right time was when the system was segregated, when gays were excluded and attacked, when the students were led in prayer. We have progressives to thank for so much. And by the way, Benson was not a fan of the ruling that took prayer out of schools. Benson was super mad about that and we could talk about that later if we want. Emily writes but, but Sam, we love you. Thanks for, for tuning in. Emily writes I'm loving this interview, man. As an African American, I wish I knew the church's racist history before going to byu. It was the Mecca of microaggressions. Many students and professors were deeply ignorant. Emily, I would love to have you on Mormon Stories podcast. So please message me if you want to come on. But yeah, this is one of the big things that I am an advocate for basically. You know, with my work on Mormon Stories and everything. My biggest concern right now is informed consent. And what I mean by that is, is that there's just way too many people who either are raised in the church or who are converted to the church without all the information. And of course I don't mean all the information but, but you, you raise a really great example, Emily. Somebody can be converted to the church and join the church and go to byu, never being taught by missionaries or leaders that the church had, had excluded blacks from temple participation and the priesthood or that Brigham Young had been super racist. That Brigham Young, a prophet, seer and revelator, had owned slaves, that slavery was legalized in the Utah territories, that you know, that, that the first presidency had declared it as doctrinal on at least two occasions with a formal first presidency statement that blacks would never receive the priesthood in this life because they were less value in the pre existence. That wasn't just theories propone, you know, proponents proposed by, you know, marginal people or leaders within the church. Those were central doctrines of the church. And it's, it's just kind of a travesty that somebody like Emily, who's, who's black, an African American, could join the church, go to BYU and then years into that commitment learn Learn about the church's racist teaching. So all that's really important. I have to give one really important shout out. I'm gonna give a shout out to Rick Bennett. Rick Bennett has a podcast called Gospel's Tangent. Gospel Tangents podcast. It's a YouTube channel. He also has a podcast. I learned about Matt Harris's wonderful work through my dear corroborator and partner and supporter, Gerardo Sumano. But he learned about it through Rick Bennett's podcast because Rick recently or sometime in the past little while interviewed Ma. And I just want to say, Rick Bennett, I don't know if you still like me, but I still like you. You do great work. I, I, I really do appreciate the work you're doing and the scholarly work you're doing. And I appreciate you mostly for helping me think to get through Gerardo to get Matt on this podcast. Rick says, I disagree that it is directly traceable Test Benson. Rod Decker downplayed Benson's role quite a bit. So basically I think that Rick Bennett is saying that we, we can't blame Utah's and Utah Mormons Republican dominance on Ezra Tap Benson. And of course I'm an agree at a minimum, Rick Bennett that there's probably a lot of other factors. And now that we've got Matt Harris back, I don't know if you want to. I want to briefly address this question of how much do we pin on Ezra Top Benson? And by the way, we can wait because your book gets into this in a future chapter, it talks about him making this statement that you can't be a good member of the church and a member of the Democratic Party. So you can either choose to punt that question until later in the interview or you can address it now. But we have Matt Harris back. So thanks listeners and viewers for your questions. Matt Harris, welcome back. And where do you want to go from here, Matt? Because I'm gonna I. You, you asked me in a text how long we want to go. Dude, I'm here until you're ready to go, so let's just keep rolling. Where do you want to go next?

Matt Harris [03:10:03] Okay, well, since Rick Bennett said it, I'm just gonna have to disagree that whatever he says is wrong. Just kidding. Rick, I love you. If you're listening.

John Dehlin [03:10:13] By the way, you and Rick are tiny bit doppelgangers of each other. You guys look a little bit alike. Is that fair to say? At least a little bit.

Matt Harris [03:10:23] Oh, Rick's. Rick's a friend of mine, so I, I like him very much. Let's talk about that when we get to the.

John Dehlin [03:10:28] Okay, okay.

Matt Harris [03:10:29] The, the, that chapter. Definitely.

John Dehlin [03:10:31] Okay, that's great. So, so chapter three in this awesome book. We're back with Dr. Matthew Harris, professor of history at college, Colorado State University, Pueblo. We're reviewing his amazing book Esoterap Benson in the Making the Mormon Rite. I will like, I will go on a date. I will schedule a lunch, an outdoor COVID 19 friendly lunch with people that buy this book today. So if you go to Amazon and you buy this book right now or later when you're watching this and then you send me the receipt or somehow let me know, I will, I will spend time with you to thank you for supporting this amazing scholarship. Please freaking buy this book. Please tell everyone about it. We're now going to go to chapter three of this book. There's only five chapters in this book, by the way. And chapter three we've covered, we've covered Benson and the Eisenhower administration and his work with the co ops, his tour in Europe. And now we're going to jump to he's. He 1960 rolls around, Eisenhower steps down after eight years. Richard Nixon as vice president runs for president against JFK. JFK famously wins the 1960 election and Eisenhower, I'm sorry, and Benson's out of his job. But he's been an apostle all along. So he's, he's unleashed back on Utah because he's no longer serving actively in Washington D.C. and he becomes a massive headache for Eisenhower, for Utah, for the first presidency and for the world, frankly. And let's dive into chapter three. Where should we go? Matt Harris?

Benson's Involvement with the John Birch Society

Matt Harris [03:12:14] Well, so maybe some of us have heard growing up or through the years that the Benson became affiliated with the John Burt Society. And maybe if we had Birch family members like I did, I heard that he called that the Birchers called Eisenhower communist. I thought, wow, Benson was a member of the cabinet and he became affiliated with an anti communist organization that called his former boss a communist. I wonder if that ever got back to Eisenhower. Did he know?

John Dehlin [03:12:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell our listeners what the John Burke Society was.

Matt Harris [03:12:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:58] If you don't mind. And then, then tell that story. Don't lose that story.

Matt Harris [03:13:01] Absolutely. So thank you for keeping me honest because I, it's hard to know sometimes what people know or don't know. The John Burch Society is the most extreme anti communist organization in the country. And those aren't my words. Those are J. Edgar Hoover's words. They have an FBI file on the Burt Society. They're watching them carefully. The Burt Society was started in 1958 by a guy named Robert Welch who's extremely brilliant. He went to Harvard Law for a short while and dropped out. Couldn't handle the liberals on the faculty. And so he drops out of Harvard Law. He makes his money in the candy business. He is the guy that the caramel lollipop if some of his Halloween.

John Dehlin [03:13:54] The Sugar Daddy or the Sugar Daddy. Yes, yeah, right. I love that stuff.

Matt Harris [03:13:59] That stuff, yeah, that's Robert Welch. So he makes millions of dollars selling the Sugar Daddy. That's his signature product. But anyway, it makes the millions of dollars in the candy business. And he retires in the late 50s. He's the same age as Ezra Benson. He's born in 1899. He grew up on a southern plantation and anyway makes all his money and he's always been conservative, always been conservative, but decides to start his own organization in 1958 and he calls it the John Birch Society after the name of a fallen soldier during World War II. Man named John Birch who gets killed during World War II. And so Robert Welch decides to start this anti communist organization off of. From the name of this fallen American gi. And some of the folks that become part of his inner circle, at least early on, is a guy named Clarence Manion who was a law dean at the University of Notre Dame. And what's the guy's first name? The Koch father. If, if you study. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:11] You mentioned him in the book. One of the Kochs.

Matt Harris [03:15:12] Yeah, one of the Kochs. The father who's.

John Dehlin [03:15:15] That's not Coca Cola. That's like K O C H. The dudes out of, out of Wichita, Kansas. The Koch brothers.

Matt Harris [03:15:21] The Koch brothers, yeah. So the Koch brothers that we talk about in right wing politics today, who, they're. They're millionaires. They give a lot of money away to conservative causes, including if I'm not mistaken, Utah state. They gave a lot of money to start some institute there.

John Dehlin [03:15:33] Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah.

Matt Harris [03:15:35] So they're enormously influential in conservative politics with their money. And it's their father that joins the Birch Society in 1958 and gives his money. Phyllis Schlafly, who becomes famous in the 1970s during the equal Rights Amendment. She's opposing it, this Catholic woman. So she and her husband join. Anyway, so in 1958, Robert Welsh. So Benson is still in the cabinet in Washington at this point. He is not part of the early establishment of the Burt Society. So he hasn't met any of this yet or been introduced to it. And 1958, the Welch will write this private tract that turns out to be like 300 plus pages, but it's basically his views and his philosophy and his ideas. And he calls it the Politician and the politician is Dwight Eisenhower. So Welch is having this visceral response to the Eisenhower administration of which Benson is a part. And Welch makes this claim in the book that will just set the conservative world on fire. He says that Dwight Eisenhower, a five star general turned American president, is a communist. And more than that, his Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, his brother and close advisor, Milton Eisenhower, and also Allen Dulles, who's the head of the Central Intelligence Agency. John FOSTER Dulles brother. These people are all communists. So basically Welch writes that the President himself and his closest cabinet advisors are communists. It's a remarkable claim after, I just

John Dehlin [03:17:33] have to say, after Eisenhower had just so faithfully served us in World War II. You know, obviously we had to ally with Russia to beat Hitler, but, but, but Eisenhower wasn't a friend of, of Russia or the Soviet Union. And, and then immediately the Korean War starts where we're fighting, you know, the Soviet Union, you know, in, in Korea and eventually Vietnam. It. When somebody serves our country so faithfully, so loyally, and is such a, a man of such high integrity. This is a super. Aside from the fact that there's zero evidence, this is super outrageous to treat such a patriot in such a scandalous, disrespectful way. Is that fair? Am I overstated? Am I overstating that?

Matt Harris [03:18:23] No, understating it. Oh my goodness. Well, wait till we, I want to address that point, John. When we get to. The brethren are going to go crazy on Benson when they learn what he's done. They're going to go crazy Anyway, so Benson gets home from Washington D.C. in 1961 and returns to Salt Lake, resumes his duties as an apostle, which had been in suspension during his cabinet years. He went to a state conference here and then, and he flew to General Conference in Salt Lake when he was a cabinet member for the most part. But really it was understood that he would take a leave of absence from his ecclesiastical duties. And so he got home in 1961 and he starts to reflect back on his government service about working with Jews and even some blacks and liberal bureaucrats and all the abuse that he took from people who criticized his policies, even fellow Republicans were angry with him. And he's just not used to this sort of visceral pushback. And so Benson's having this moment that trying to understand his role in world affairs and what does all this mean he was up close and personal with the federal government? So anyway, he started to process all of this. And he does say nice things about Eisenhower. When he gets home in the spring of 1961, he writes Eisenhower a letter, tells him, you're the great American patriot and the country needed you. You're a man of principle. He says this in private to Latter Day Saints. He writes letters, and he's a man of principle. He says this in General Conference just before he left in the fall of 1960. Before he left. That was his last conference when he was in Washington, Benson gave a sermon in General Conference in which he called Eisenhower a fine American patriot. So he's saying all these nice things about him, but when he gets home, he tells the First Presidency, we have problems. We have problems with socialized agriculture. I had tried and tried and tried to fix it, and I couldn't. The special interests were too great. I just couldn't. We have problems. And then he starts to turn an Eisenhower himself almost that quickly. And he meets the Burt's People. He meets Robert Welch in the spring of 1961, and almost immediately he gets a copy of the Politician. This is the book where Welch had written a few years earlier and had outlined his views about the government and about Eisenhower and his inner circle being communists. Benson has this epiphanous moment. I knew it. He's a communist. And one of the reasons that Welch called him a communist is that Eisenhower was a little slow during World War II to open up a second front in Europe. And he saw kinds of sinister motives behind that, as opposed to looking at military strategy, for example. But anyway, and the other point that Eisenhower incurs this tremendous criticism is that Eisenhower didn't roll back the New Deal and Fair Deals, that is, the liberal state was there, and Eisenhower didn't roll it back. In fact, in many respects, he expands it. So he creates this federal program for highways. That's what liberals do. And this guy is supposed to be a, you know, fairly moderate to conservative Republican. He maintains support for farmers, for example, which is difficult. He pledges his support to for Social Security, which is another thing that Benson and conservatives didn't want, didn't think that that was the government's role to look after the aged. And so Eisenhower said something interesting to his brother. He said, my views have changed towards the New Deal. My views have changed. It's the rich people who want to get rid of these New Deal programs. But those people are stupid. He says, these people who have these New Deal, these government programs they need them to live. Whether it's Social Security, whether it's money for some electricification project in the south, whatever it is, they need the government's help to bless their lives. And Benson starts to realize that his boss. This is during the Cabinet now, so let's just jump back a couple of years. Benson starts to realize that there are bureaucrats who are so deeply entrenched that there's no way they will allow Eisenhower to give up these New Deal programs. And so Eisenhower, for Benson, becomes a pawn of the liberals. And Benson's views are pretty ideologically consistent with his conservativism, but certainly Eisenhower's aren't. And that is where Robert Welch, the president of the Birch Society, and Benson will find common ground that Eisenhower could have done more to get rid of the welfare state or at least to curtail it. And he doesn't. And so when Benson reads about the Politician, it's like, oh, my goodness, this is. This guy is articulating everything that I've been feeling for the last four or five years. And he wasn't. Benson wasn't even keeping these ideas to himself either. In General Conference in 1958, Benson gives a sermon that's just really. Just knock your socks off. He says he's being cryptic about it, but basically he says that there are people in the government who are infiltrating it. You know, whenever you use the word infiltrate, you can associate with communism. There are people who are infiltrating the continent and bringing their views, and they want to give us communism, but he doesn't say who it is. And this is 1958, and here you have a guy on the inside saying this about Eisenhower and his administration. It's really extraordinary. So by 1961, he meets the Birch president. He reads the Politician, and he is just taken back with these conspiracy theories about his boss. He gives a copy of the Politician to each member of the Quorum of the twelve. He gives it to the First Presidency. He tells Joseph Fielding Smith, who was then the president of the quorum of the 12 and second in line for the church presidency to David O. He tells Joseph Fielding Smith, he said, this is a book that will change your life. You've got to read it. It is riveting. And Henry Moyle, who's this interesting figure, he's in the First Presidency. He's a wealthy lawyer. He went to the University of Chicago, so he's got good credentials. They called him in the First Presidency to help with the church's finances. That was his role no question about it. And along with Hugh Brown, Moyle was a Democrat. And when Moyle reads this book, he's just appalled that Benson could be so disloyal. And, and he calls Benson in. He calls him Taft. That was a nickname that Ezra Taft Benson had used for a number of years. It was Taft. And he calls Taft in and he just berates him up and down from head to toe for being, quote, disloyal to President Eisenhower. And then Taft, or Moyle writes after he berated Benson, who, by the way, had been in the quorum of the 12 longer than Moyle. But Moyle had a position of authority over Benson because he was in the First Presidency, even though Benson had been in the 12 longer than Moyle. But anyway, so Moyle just lambasts Benson and Moyle writes, but don't worry, I won't take you off any of your boards. And by that he meant, even though I'm so angry with you for being disloyal, I'll allow you to stay on the boards of direct, the various boards that you're on with businesses, because I know that's your income. I won't take away your income. So it's an interesting comment that Moyle makes to him that I'm so angry with you, I'm tempted to take away your income, but I won't. We'll leave you on those church owned boards and those companies that you're on that allow you to supplement your meager church allowance. In those days it was meager. So he's really reprimanded by the First Presidency counselor for sharing this book that he calls riveting. And I have his Burt's file. I've gotten lots of files that have never been used or seen in this book. I mentioned his FBI files a minute ago. Benson. I mentioned Cleon Skousen's files. I mentioned Wolf Laginski's files. But I also got a wonderful resource that scholars have not been able to get access to. I got Benson's papers from the John Burt Society. And so I can speak authoritatively about how close he was with the Birch founder. Dear Bob, dear Ezra. And in the papers, the Birch, the late or the President Emeritus, he's now emeritus of the Birch Society. But this guy's name, John McManus. And he was the president of the Birch Society when Benson was the president of the church. And so he knew Benson personally and visited Salt Lake. That we can talk about in just a minute when we get to that chapter. But McManus, he's the one that I reached out to him one day. It's all it was. It was a phone call. And I told him who I was. And he gave me the entire file, hundreds of pages of Benson and the Birchers. And in this file you see receipts of the politician that he purchased from the Birch Society so that he could give to his church friends. And typically it was just they would mail these receipts to Salt Lake and, you know, Joseph Fielding Smith. There's the receipt for that book. And I want three copies in the church history archives. They called them archives in those days. Today we call it the church history library. So he would pay for receipts to have them sent to the church history archives. And when Benson was the church president. Again, we'll get to this. But just a little foreshadowing. When Benson was the church president, one of the first things that he did was to order Birch literature for his two counselors, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, and his secretary, D. Arthur Haycock. And you see those secretaries or those receipts from the Birch Society of the literature that he would have sent to them. So he was a huge, huge, huge proponent of all things Birch. And not just with the politician, but Birch Society journals, something called the Birch Society log. It was just a. It was a log of a little two page writing that the Birch people would put out every week about their ideas and world affairs. So he had general authorities reading that he would send to. And Benson was just, absolutely just mesmerized with the politician. He also sent a copy to J. Edgar Hoover. You got to read this. Director Hoover. Eisenhower, you know, and Eisenhower, I mentioned a minute ago in our, in our talk that, that that Hoover thought that the Birch Society was the most radical, right wing, extreme, anti communist organization in the country. Hoover opened up an FBI file on them. And so Benson sending him positive stuff about the Burt Society. And you see this in his FBI file. He sends them all kinds of things. The FBI file with Benson's like, oh my goodness, several hundred pages. And so he's sending Hoover this stuff. And Hoover is just beside himself. Eisenhower might be a lot of things, but he's not a communist. And so Hoover's just absolutely, really frustrated with that Benson, this former government official, would turn on the boss like that. And he categorically rejects that Ike is a Commie, even though Hoover had been talking about commies and how they had infiltrated the US Government. But Ike wasn't one of them. And he thought that those people were, quote, stupid. And so he told one of his aides Hoover that look, we got to keep Benson at a distance. He's a little too radical for us. I don't want anything to do with the Birch Society. So when he starts to promote the Birch Society, we're not going to respond to it. And he gives him the stiff arm, basically. So anyway, by the early 1960s, Benson becomes radicalized by the Burt Society and his son Reid, who's now a graduate from byu. He'd gone back east to, I think, Cornell Law School for a short period and dropped out of Cornell Law School. Kind of a person without a rudder. Didn't know what he wanted to do, although he wanted to save the Constitution. He wasn't sure how to do that. You know, wanted to be a spy at BYU at one point, I guess. Funny way to save it. But he needed a job, and Reid would later end up teaching at the byu on the BYU Religion Department. Skeleton can get in with a law degree. Reed Benson could get in with his deficient credentials, too. But anyway, Reed Benson went to work for the John Birch Society with his father's blessing. And so Reed Benson and Ezra and Cleon Skousen, who was never a member of the Burch Society like Ezra, they never joined officially. And the reason is, is because there was so much controversy. McKay told Benson, don't do it. You're an apostle. I have control over you. I do not give you my permission for you to join, nor can you join the board. But Benson's family had all joined, including Reed, who worked for them. But Flora joins, the daughters join, they all become Birchers. Skousen won't join for the same reasons. He wants to say, well, I'm not a member to kind of distance himself from this controversial organization. But he clearly believes in their precepts and their ideologies because he speaks at their. He goes on their speaker circuit in the early 60s, and he goes around and speaking about anti communism and the naked communist. And he speaks with other Birchers on that circuit, even though Skousen never officially joins. Not because he doesn't want to, it's because he recognizes it's controversial. But anyway, so Reid becomes a member, an employee of the Burt Society, and he. Reed gave us a talk at. In Denver, not too far from where I live in Denver, Colorado, in the 1960s. And Reed says he's. So he's giving a talk not as a private citizen, but as an employee of the John Burt Society. And people by this point know who the Burt Society is. It's made a national name for itself as being this radical anti communist organization. Barry Goldwater, conservative Center, didn't want anything to do with it. Those people are crazy. In fact, when Goldwater got a copy of the Politician, he said, quote, to the person who gave it to him, he said, quote, you should burn every copy you have. This is dangerous. And so he recognizes, Barry Goldwater, that this is not good to call a former general and a beloved American icon a commie. This is problematic. And anyway, so Goldwater rejects this communist nonsense, Thinking of the right wing, the National Review guy, William Buckley, the conservative pundit, this incredible popular conservative pundit who wrote the national review in the 60s. He calls the Birchers a bunch of loonies. So even conservatives are calling them loonies. And of course, they're trying to get into the Republican Party. And some Republicans are saying, we don't want you. You're just, you know, you're like the Ku Klux Klan. You give us a bad name, we don't want you. So anyway, not all Republicans rejected the Birch support, let's be clear. But a number of them did. Ronald Reagan, you know, had some things to say about the Birches. So they're not, they're not mainstream is what I'm trying to say. They're, they're outside of mainstream conservative politics. And Benson knows that they're controversial. Skousen knows that they're controversial, yet they continue to associate with them. And so Reed Benson gives this speech in Denver, Colorado, in which he says that my father, he said that Eisenhower is a commie. And a journalist asks him during the Q and A part, I guess after the speech, he says, well, wait a minute, wasn't your father in the cabinet? And why would your father be in a cabinet if somebody was a Communist? And Reid's response was, well, Eisenhower just used my father for protective coloration. That's the word he used, protective coloration. And I think that what that means is that everybody knows my father, this Mormon official, is not a communist. And it was sort of a red herring. It was window dressing. You have to have a few non communists in the inner circle, otherwise people will be on to you. And so it's this incredibly insulting thing to do, to say, and this is now the story that I was going to share at the beginning of our second segment here is when I heard that Reed Benson and read about the newspaper report of Reed Benson saying this because it made the news, the Denver Post writes about this, I thought to myself, surely this will get back to Eisenhower, who's now retired at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. That's his retirement home. The same Gettysburg where the famous Civil War battle is taught. So this has got to get back to him. And what does he say about this? What is this response that his former secretary, a man he had been so intensely loyal to, even when the church president wanted to bring him back to Salt Lake in the midst of all this controversy, even when dozens of U.S. republican senators said, president Eisenhower, you got to drop him. You'll never get reelected with him on. He's an albatross. You'll never get reelected with him. Ike stays by him. And what does Benson do? How does he show his gratitude? He stabs him in the back. By calling him a Commie. By agreeing with the Birchers. It's a. It's an enormous event. It's a pivotal moment in their relationship. And so anyway, the thought I had was, does this get back to Eisenhower? Well, there's only one way to know. Go to the archives, go to Kansas, go figure it out. And sure enough, I went to the presidential library and the documents are there. And it gets back to Eisenhower. One of Eisenhower's aides who didn't attend the talk, but apparently they were from Colorado. They'd worked with Eisenhower and the government. And then when the government ended, they went back to their home, in this case Colorado. But one of the aides sent the talk, the newspaper article to Rusty Harlow, Eisenhower's secretary. And they sent. They cut out the newspaper from the Denver Post and they underlined protective coloration. That part where Eisenhower only kept Benson for protective coloration. Just to throw everybody off from the scent. And so anyway, the. Rusty Harlow sent the article to Eisenhower. And Eisenhower, as you can imagine, was just beside himself. He felt betrayed. And he wrote this when Benson was in Europe as a mission president. They got him out of the country. We can talk about that in just a sec. The lead up to that. But they moved him to Europe to get him out of the country because of his political views, his Birch views. He had been birchifying the church. Skousen, Reed, Benson and even Ezra had been talking in state conferences about the Burt Society. Really just crossing every imaginable line with this political organization in the church body. Anyway, so the brother and moved out of to Europe for on this mission. And that's where he is when this leaks. So this would have been in early 1964. And Benson was called on this mission in the fall of 63. And then he. January 1st is what he ships out to Europe to preside over the European mission. He lives in Germany for a couple of years. Anyway, so it gets back to Eisenhower. Eisenhower sends him, Benson a letter when he's in Germany. Basically, he says, how could you do this? I've been so loyal to you. How could you do this? And he sends the copy of the article from Reid, and Benson writes back, and he says, I'm sure that my son has been misquoted. I'm sure my son's been misquoted, that he didn't speak accurately. And I should also add that in that speech, it wasn't just that Reid said that Ezra, his father, was a tool used for protective coloration. He also said that Eisenhower was a dupe or a tool of the Commies, that they were using him, which is such an insulting thing to say, because that means you're so stupid you don't even know you're being used. And Eisenhower is obviously an intelligent man. So anyway, you're a tool of the commies. Well, Ezra writes him back from Europe and says, my son's been misquoted. I'm sure of it. I'll get back to you with the details. And Ezra never gets back to him. He just ignores it. Just. Just forget about it.

John Dehlin [03:39:44] It'll go away.

Matt Harris [03:39:44] He doesn't get back to him. And what's interesting about this is when he says his son has been misquoted. And this is where I'm disappointed in Elder Benson. He's been, you know, caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He's, you know. Did you think this would get back Elder Benson? Well, obviously, maybe he didn't think about it, I don't know. But he said his son had been misquoted. That wasn't true because the week before Reid gave that talk in which he said that his father was a tool or that Benson, excuse me, Eisenhower was a tool of the commies. Ezra said an exact thing, the same thing almost verbatim in a private letter to J. Edgar Hoover, that Eisenhower's a tool. He's being used. And Reid had said the same thing in that public venue. And so for Ezra to say that my son was misquoted, that's not the case because his son was essentially quoting almost verbatim from this private letter that he had written to Hoover. And so Benson's been caught now in this embarrassing situation, and he says that I'll find out the details, what happened. He never does, as I mentioned. And so he continues to send Eisenhower birch literature. I mean, this is how tone deaf Elder Benson is that somehow that Benson is. He's called his former boss a Commie in private he never admits to that to Benson or to Eisenhower. I'm sorry, but yet he said other lots of unflattering things about his former boss. But he sends literature, birch literature to Eisenhower. And Eisenhower is angry. He writes back, how could you believe these people? Quit sending me this trash. You can understand that I'm disappointed when people like you should be defending me from people like them, but instead you've bought their line. It's really an emotional moment. And when Eisenhower, when he dies in 1968, Benson releases a public statement, a relation statement that Desert News publishes. And he basically calls Eisenhower this great American patriot and he's a hero. And he says all of these adulatory things about them. And one of Francis Gibbons, who wrote all of these biographies on LDS Church presidents that up until I think, I guess his last book was Ezra Taft Benson. And then that was when he quit. But he started with Joseph Smith, went all the way to Ezra Taft Benson. Desert Book published them. And Gibbons talks about where he says that he alludes to. He doesn't talk about any of the story that I'm telling you because he didn't go to the archives and nor would he write them in his Desert Book. But he does reference that. Gibbons says that Benson, when he released that public relations statement when eisenhower died in 1968, maybe that's his way of making peace with the man for questioning his patriotism. This is what Gibbon said. I was just blown by that because there's no context to that story whatsoever, that somehow he calls him a great patriot and he's trying to make peace with him. Well, that's what it was. He called him a Commie. And somebody did an interview at the Presidential Library with Benson in 1975, so. So Benson would have been president of the quorum of the 12 at this point. And it was from the Eisenhower Library. And they asked him, what was your relationship with Eisenhower after the Cabinet? And Benson said, virtually nil. And the reason why it was virtually nil is because he had called him a communist. It got back to him. And so that's what destroyed their relationship, is that Benson fell in love with the Birchers, and it affected how he viewed Eisenhower, a man that he had tremendous respect for. Nixon, on the other hand, Benson used to send him Bert stuff too. And if you again go to their private papers, like the Nixon Presidential Library, you see stuff like this. That's why it's really important for historians to do their legwork and get a full picture. But he was sending the same stuff to Nixon And Nixon was just absolutely disgusted by the Birch Society. And Nixon was one of those moderate Republicans that like George Romney, Mitt Romney's father, supported civil rights. Well, there were moderate Republicans like George Romney and Richard Nixon who supported civil rights. And so when Benson would send Birch literature to Nixon as well, and the Birches of course opposed Dr. King and he's a commie and you know, Nixon thought it was just so abrasive and repulsive. So that's really what happened with Benson. He fell out of line with, with this very popular president when he joined the Birch Society. And Benson went on this crusade to birchify the church, to link the church with the Birch Society.

John Dehlin [03:44:37] And I just, I just have to say I, I have a real love for 19, 20th century, 20th century history, for World War II, all that stuff, you know, 1960s. I've just always loved that stuff. I was so sad for Eisenhower. And it's so weird because again we talked at the beginning about how like just go to 1908 or whatever and Utah's not even, maybe not even going to be let into the Union. Their senator doesn't even get seated. And then you just fast forward 40 or 50 years and like Eisenhower saying, hey, I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm going to bring this yokel from Idaho, this Mormon, this weird Mormon group, this yokel from Idaho. I'm going to elevate him to the staff of the United States into my, into my cabinet. And, and again David O. McKay is saying, get rid of the guy. He's embarrassing us, talking about Benson to Eisenhower. Eisenhower says, nope, I'm going to stay with him, I'm sticking with him, I need him, he's a good guy. And then freaking Benson just stabs knives him in the back in the 60s and then lies about it like I'm not, I'm not asking you to use those words. But like, you know when we had Shannon Caldwell Montez on and we've talked about the way sometimes apostles and members of the first presidency work, they're not always honest. And to have Benson caught with his hand in the cookie jar and then he says to Eisenhower, my son was misquoted or, or like I don't know what's going on, let me see. Or this can't be true. When, when he believes it before, during and after and continues telling people, for me there's, I, I mean I just wrote, I just wrote as Benson's a frickin liar. And I just don't understand it because you know, that he was chosen by the FBI partly because of his reputation of integrity. I think he believed in being honest, but, like, it's just so hypocritical and. And so disloyal and so tacky. Yeah, it's just such a great man. Kind of lowered my notch of respect for Ezra Tep Benson. And I don't mean to just rant and rail, but I was bummed out by that moment in history.

Matt Harris [03:47:09] It's interesting, John, if you talk to Birchers, when I say Birches, talking about just Latter Day Saints, members of the John Birch Society. And believe it or not, even though the Cold War has been over since 1989, there are still people who were part of the John Birch Society today. And some of my own family members were members of the Burt Society. Anyway, if you mention Eisenhower, that Benson thought he was a Communist, that's not something they talk about because it's embarrassing. They talk about the other stuff, Communism and Democrats and liberalism and the welfare state being evil and the big bad commies coming to get us in Russia and all of that stuff is fair game. But if you talk to just someone who's moderately informed about the Burt Society, they don't know much about the Eisenhower stuff. And the reason is because Welch recognized it was a lightning rod the minute he wrote it in 1958, it was an unpublished manuscript that leaked out. Benson got a copy of the leaked portion of it, and when it was subsequently published in book form where people could buy it, they took out all of the controversial stuff, that Eisenhower stuff, the inner circle all being Commies, and I mean, really just hardcore loaded language. So that was all just written out because the Birchers were not being taken seriously. And that was the trip up the trigger point by calling this respected moderate Republican president and war hero a Commie. And so Welch, being the prescient guy that he was, recognized that this is an issue, and so they tried to backtrack. And the problem is, once the, you know, genie's out of the bottle, it's hard to put it back in. And. And J. Edgar Hoover and William Buckley and all these guys. These are conservatives, so I hasten to add, these are conservatives Republicans. They. They just thought, this is crazy. And they'd oftentimes link them with the Klan, with the White Citizens Council, the neo Nazis. I mean, those are the kinds of groups that Americans, critics of the Burt Society were lumping them with. And that's clearly not something you want to be lumped with, you know, the Klan, because nobody takes those people seriously unless You're a member of the Klan or you're white supremacist. And so Wells wanted to be taken seriously in Republican politics, and he wasn't, at least by some of the mainstream party members. And so Benson was upset that his own party wasn't taking them seriously, at least enough. And then he was upset that Latter Day Saints weren't taking the Birds people seriously, at least enough. And Benson had tried to get Robert Welch to speak at byu. This is how controversial Welch is. The Board of Trustees said, no way. We're not going to have any Bircher speak at byu, much less Robert Welch. He tried to get Robert Welch to speak in General Conference. And of course, no way. He tried to get Robert Welch to be given an honorary degree, of course. No way. And he was really. Ezra was really upset, Elder Benson, when he tried to get Reed Benson, his son, a BYU graduate, a faithful member of the church. He wanted him to get a speaking. A spot at BYU to speak, to give a devotional address. And Ernest Wilkinson was kind of embarrassed by it. He wrote Benson, he said, I'm sorry, we can't. And Benson writes back, what? How could you not have Reid talk? He's a great speaker. He's an alumni. How could you deny him? And Ernest Wilkinson writes back, you know why? Because Burt's people are forbidden. And then Benson writes back, show me the evidence. Which is really strange because Benson's a member of the Board of Trustees. You would think that he would have known this. But anyway, President McKay wrote Wilkinson a letter, and he said, no Birch people on campus. And so Wilkinson shared that letter with Benson, and Benson knew this. I guess he just wanted to see the proof. And then when President McKay died, he tries it again with President Smith and then President Lee and then President Kimball. Really, he's just impotent. He's just tireless in trying to get these Birds people on campus because he. He really thinks that his worldview, that communism is closing in, and then Latter Day Saints need to be informed about it. And what a better way to do this than to have the John Birch Society direct this. And so he gets pushback from fellow apostles from Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [03:51:46] I love it. Hey, I want to give a shout out. We. We enabled this feature on YouTube called Super Chat, where people are able to actually donate. And I just want to thank Benjamin Bryce for his donation. He writes, matt Harris is blowing my mind. If any of you and YouTubers want to enable that feature, you can. A couple bucks is great. It's not a big deal, but. But we're super grateful. So, Benjamin, thanks. And Matt Harris, thanks for blowing Benjamin Bryce's mind. So this is fantastic. And so what your book then goes into next is how the Brethren start getting really embarrassed. Like the Brethren start getting concerned about Ezra Chap Benson, that he's harming the LDS Church. And so why don't you talk about. And this is mind boggling, you know, in an orthodox Mormon's mind, the idea of like several members of the quorum of the 12 thinking we've got a problem with someone in the Quorum, we gotta. Do we. Do we kick them out? Do we kick them out of the Quorum? Do we. Do we excommunicate them? Do we censure them? Do we silence them? Most Mormons today probably would never even conceive that this is possible. So talk about dissension in the Quorum. And what solution the Brethren came up with to deal with the Ezra Top Benson problem that they were experiencing.

Church Leadership Tensions Over Benson's Extremism

Matt Harris [03:53:12] They try a lot of things. Anyway, so let's go back just a little bit to. Let's take it back to 1963 and Benson's already in tight quarters with the Burt Society. He's writing letters to Robert Welch. Robert Welch's Birch Society is coming under assault from mainstream politicians like Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan and others. Bill Buckley in his magazine. And so Welch is struggling. He's floundering in the national fabric. People aren't joining the Birch Society like he'd hoped. They're not paying their dues like he'd hoped. He still has a pretty big following, let's be clear. But he doesn't have the following that he wants. He's trying to influence. Influence politics. And some of the Republicans, again, like Goldwater and Reagan, are giving him a stiff arm. We don't want you. And so Robert Welch recognizes that, that this patriotic American, this former Secretary of Agriculture, this high profile Mormon leader, what a boon that would be to have him in my corner. He's got stature, he's respected, he's got a church that he commands in part. And so from Welch's perspective, he needs someone who can help bolster his public Persona. He's taking body blows all over the place. There's a. Robert Kennedy opens up a federal investigation against the Burt Society and their recruitment methods. I mean, it's just bad stuff going on everywhere. So Benson is. He loves Benson because he can help bring and make the Burt Society reputable. And that's really, from Welch's perspective, why Benson is so valuable to him and not to Mention he's got millions of Mormons who may hear about the message through Apostle Benson and his son Reed. So from that perspective, it's a marriage made in heaven between these two people. Benson thinks that communism run amok. He's been in the government and Welch needs him to help bolster his public relations. And so when Benson gets home from the the cabinet, he writes a book that's eerily similar to Masters of Deceit, the same book that, that J. Reuben Clark or not J. Edgar Hoover in the late 50s. And Benson's book is published in 1962. I'm looking over at my library here for a moment. It's called the Red the Royal Road to Communism. This is in 1962. It's really similar to Hoover's work. And the Burke society will purchase 3,000 copies of it. And the thesis of the book essentially is that Americans are slowly moving towards the road to communism. They're taking this road and of course the road would be liberal government programs and eventually they're going to move towards full blown communism. That's where this road's leading. And so Benson writes this book. The Birchers buy up 3,000 copies and they start to sell it in Birch bookstores everywhere. And as a favor, Robert Welch says to Birch or to Benson, will you speak at the five year anniversary in California coming up about the anniversary of the Birch Society? Would you speak? And Benson says okay, I need to have the approval of my president, President McKay, but I'll, I'll just, I'll get the approval. So Benson does, he talks to President McKay and he said, hey, I'm going to speak at this anti communist organization. Do I have your blessing? And McKay says yes you do. Prior to that speech, I want to go back just a little bit. Before that speech, Benson had been ramping up Mormon meeting houses with these Burt's recruitment sessions. It got so bad in 1961, 62 that Hubie Brown gave a talk in General Conference, the priesthood session on Saturday night. And he said that we should not be using our meeting houses for political recruitment sessions. And he doesn't use the word the Burt Society, but everybody knows who, what he means because Skousen and Benson, Ezra and Reed had been doing this. And so Hugh Brown just lays down the law and Reed Benson in private, imagine this, you know, the apostles young son in his early 30s, he goes to President McKay and he's angry about this. It's Moyle and Brown who are behind this. These two Democratic counselors, you know, just the, I don't Know, the immaturity, maybe the like. Who do you think you are? You going in there lecturing the church president about a speech that one of your counselors, a sermon that one of your counselors had given that you don't like. And anyway, what's the scripture say? The guilty take of the truth to be hard have been doing this, and he got caught. Skousen had been doing this and Benson Ezra had been doing this. And so Hugh Brown says, stop. We're not going to use our meeting houses for political recruitment sessions. And. And anyway, and then the last thing is, before we get back to that, I missed. I missed. I should mention this earlier, but the last thing is, is that Benson had started to fuse his theology with his conspiracies. And after he met the Birchers in The spring of 61, just months later, he gives his first general conference sermon on the Book of Mormon, where he reads his conspiracies into the Book of Mormon for the first time, where he talks about modern Gadianton robbers and he talks about all of these. The Book of Mormon is for our day. It'll help us to see socialism and communism. And of course, the Gadianton robbers becomes this great theme. There were Gadianton robbers in the government. And so he's never used this language before he meets Robert Wells, but he starts to use the Book of Mormon to fuse his conspiracy theories with Mormon theology thereafter. So between reading Gaddy Ant and Robbers and his sermons and speaking about it and using these LDS meeting houses for recruitment sessions, the brethren are starting to crack down on some of this stuff. And it boils over in the fall of 1963, when Ezra Taft Benson had just published his book called the Red Carpet, he goes to LA with President McKay's blessing. And of course President McKay doesn't know what he's going to save, but he goes to la, he gives this speech about touting the Burke Society, how great they are, how wonderful they are, how patriotic they are. And he doesn't say anything about Eisenhower being a Commie, none of that stuff. But there are reporters who are there who have read the Politician, and they ask ezra afterwards, Dear Mr. Secretary, what do you think about Robert Welch calling Eisenhower a Communist? Now, just pause for a moment. This is nothing, that. This is not something that Apostle Benson wants to be asked. He believes it, but he knows it's controversial. He knows it's controversial because he'd already shared it with his fellow apostles and they rebuffed him. He reads the news, he reads Bill Buckley, he reads what Reagan and Goldwater are saying, he knows it's controversial, but without even thinking it for a moment, he looks at the journalist and he basically says, no comment. Now that's a startling moment where you could say, you could stand up and you could say, I don't agree with that. And Robert Welch was wrong. But this is the five year anniversary of Robert Welch and the Burt Society. He's there as Welch's guest. He's got this high profile stature and he refuses to rebut this controversial claim. And of course the New York Times reporter who's there, boy, boom. They make Ezra pay the very next day. The byline, the New York Times says former Agricultural Secretary Eisenhower won't rebut Welch's claim that he's a communist. And so that's the byline. Right. The former secretary will not rebut Welch's claim that Eisenhower is a communist.

John Dehlin [04:01:28] Do you know if that was on the front page?

Matt Harris [04:01:30] I don't know. I have a copy of it, but I don't. I have a cutout. Right. That might be, that's a, that's, that's really interesting.

John Dehlin [04:01:38] Yeah, I think the brother don't like, you know, articles in the New York Times. No, no, like this. Not articles like this.

Matt Harris [04:01:47] Not like this. Yeah, so I think it was the. My memory. Yeah, I think it was. I'm not going to bet the farm. It's been like five years since I did this, wrote this four years ago anyway. But I think it's the front page. I'm 90% certain, actually without checking my, my notes. Anyway, so it makes the, it makes the New York Times. I'm certain it has to be the front times because it's such an incendiary, you know, comment. So it makes the Times. And there's this LDS politician from Idaho, a guy made by the name of Ralph Harding. He's, he's in the U. S. Congress, represents Idaho, it's his first term. And Harding is just appalled that Benson didn't have the decency to defend his formal boss, a man who had been so loyal to him throughout eight years in the cabinet. He was just appalled. So Harding, he's already been appalled by the Burt stuff. He's not happy about any of that stuff. So Harding stays up all night, John, and he writes this speech in which he'll give on the floor of the US Congress. And he knows that if he criticizes Benson, this is going to cause a firestorm. And I should tell you something, just pause for a moment. Ralph Harding is from Idaho. Benson's from Idaho. They know each other. Benson was Harding's favorite general authority. In fact, Elder Benson sent Ralph Harding apart as a missionary in 1949. So they have a connection. And so he's appalled that the man that he, his favorite general authority, is damaging the church with his Birch connection. So Harding is going to denounce the former secretary, an apostle in his church. He's going to denounce him on the floor of the US Congress. And he knows he's chartering into unch chartered territory. He sends a copy of the speech first to Hubie Brown, who writes back and he says, Brown says, give it, deliver it. In other words, we need help. He is so headstrong and stubborn. Apostle Benson. I can't. I need more than just me giving a message and priesthood session of conference saying, don't use our meeting houses for Birch recruitment sessions. I need help. And we'll get to David O. McKay where he fits in with all this in a minute. So Brown says, pop him. Have at least. And Harding also sends a copy of the speech to his stake president, a guy named Milan D. Smith. And this is where it really gets interesting. In my opinion, Milan D. Smith is not just any stake president. Hey, President, what do you think? And the president who doesn't understand the context and the politics might say, no, don't criticize an apostle on the floor of the US Congress. And they'll go into the Congressional Record and Washington. No, bad idea. But Milan D. Smith says, do it. You've got my blessing. Now the reason why that's significant is that Milan D. Smith also has a first, a relationship with Benson. He was the secretary to Benson for not all eight years in the Cabinet, but for a significant chunk when he worked in Washington. And that's why Neyland D. Smith was still back in Washington D.C. he had a home there because he'd worked in the Eisenhower or the Benson administration, at least in the Agricultural Department. And so he worked for Benson and now he's telling a member of his flock in his stake it's okay, do this. So he agrees with Brown. And so anyway, Harding delivers the speech and it is a doozy. He calls, you know, he's inflaming all of these tensions. He doesn't use the word conspiracy, but he's aligned himself with this horrible organization that Birch people. And he says all these bad things. This is all in the book. So I'm reluctant to use exact verbiage since it's I quote in the book. But anyway, it's this. It's just. Matt, it's just really, it's a body blow to Benson. He's really just popping him hard. And he also does this Harding at great peril, knowing that. Okay, very good.

John Dehlin [04:06:22] No, I'm sorry. I was just giving her. Keep going.

Matt Harris [04:06:24] No, that's great. I'm glad you showed that.

John Dehlin [04:06:25] Yeah.

Matt Harris [04:06:27] But Harding also knows, John, that Benson's beloved in Idaho. And so this is a great political risk to Harding's career by criticizing this beloved figure from Idaho. And Harding will, will eventually lose. When he runs again, he loses. And I'm. I have some documents that both Reed and Ezra and Private are like, you know, cheering it on. We're so happy he lost because of how he criticized Elder Benson on the floor of the US Congress. So here's the point. I'll end with just one last part to the story so it makes the New York Times.

John Dehlin [04:07:04] I'll just show the article here. It looks like it's page 20, if I'm reading that right. September 24, 1963. This is like right before Kennedy's assassinated, by the way.

Matt Harris [04:07:15] That's correct. Kennedy will die in November.

John Dehlin [04:07:17] Yeah, yeah. Birch Society AIM hailed by Benson. He won't rebut Eisenhower. Denunciation by Welch. Not, not an article you want in the New York Times.

Matt Harris [04:07:29] No, no. And then the Congressional Record with Harding. Newspapers too. So you get, you get a string of bad publicity with the New York Times and then Congressman Harding speech. And then so what happens is the brethren decide, oh, my goodness. We. This is a, this is a veritable firestorm. We've got to get him out of the country. He got to get him out. We've got to get him out. So they call him to Europe. And so here it's not just for your listeners. It's important to know this is not unprecedented. Apostles generally don't oversee missions, but it's not unprecedented. It happens. And Elton Tanner did it in Western Europe in the early 60s. It happens.

John Dehlin [04:08:10] I mean, Holland Holland went to Chile and was there for three years. Oakes went to the Philippines and was there for a few years. But it's also true that the church, when they want to avoid a scandal, will sometimes call people on missions. I'm aware of a high profile Mormon who was caught in an affair and the church actually made him a mission president out of the, out of Utah to sort of help him escape the affair. But also we talked about that with B H Roberts, that the B H Roberts stuff got so heated in 1922 that what happens. BH Roberts is set on a mission to New York like this is a standard tactic of the church to help downplay and avoid the perpetuation of a scam.

Matt Harris [04:08:57] Well, Randy bought in BYU in 2012 when he said those things in the Washington Post during Mitt Romney's campaign, things about race. They retired him and he went off to a mission server.

John Dehlin [04:09:07] Mission, yeah.

Matt Harris [04:09:08] Anyway, so, so they want to get him out. They call him to Germany to preside over this European mission. This is in October. He's given the call and he has his farewell in November. And Joseph Fielding Smith, he writes. So Joseph Fielding Smith is this. He's really an interesting guy. He's got a quirky sense of humor that I think is delightful. But Joseph Fielding Smith, who's the church historian at the time, and he's the second most senior apostle, he writes in his journal. I went to Elder Benson's missionary farewell. This is in December, about six weeks after he was called. And this is just a few weeks after President Kennedy had been murdered. And he said, I went to his missionary farewell. It was uncommonly long. That was his way of saying, oh my gosh. Reed Benson talked about it. He said, my father has been stabbed in the back. That's what he said. That's his exact language. My father's been stabbed in the back. When somebody asked Hugh Brown, what do you think about Benson going over to Europe? Benson said, or Brown said, I hope he never comes back. And so, so he goes to Europe. And of course, the public line is the church wants to be discreet about it, that this is where the Lord needs them. And we, you know, all of this stuff, totally lying.

John Dehlin [04:10:33] I mean, again, I mean, you're not going to use that word, but it's, it is dishonest because, because when, and later this happens in the 70s or the 80s, when he becomes a prophet, that behind the scenes there will be very explicit, overt reasons why a decision is made. And then when anybody asks, wait, is this why a decision is getting made? The answer will be no, that's not why the decision is being made. So there is a duplicity that is part of this job. Not to just say that any of us are perfect, but the church leaders will be overtly dishonest if they don't want anyone to know what's going on behind the scenes.

Matt Harris [04:11:18] Well, in this case, they get outed because. So that's the church line. They put it in the church news that he's going, this is where the Lord needs him. And they, they, they know he's controversial. There's no doubt about it. And they, they say in a public relate. He's not going. There's nothing to do with politics. That's what they say. And so they recognize that, you know, he's controversial with all the things he's been saying about Eisenhower and so forth. Well, anyway, he goes to Germany and so Benson's out of the country. And he is. He ramps up his correspondence with Robert. Well, to the Burch's society. I mean, they write so many letters back and forth at the time when, when Benson's there on. He's writing on West European mission letterhead back to Welch. It's almost. You wonder if he got any missionary work done. But anyway, he was so involved in politics while he was away. And when he. In early 1964, there are some damaging letters that get leaked to the Idaho Statesman. I think the newspapers called. It's the.

John Dehlin [04:12:22] The.

Matt Harris [04:12:22] One of the signature papers in Idaho. I think it's out of Boise. Anyway, so there's a couple of letters that get leaked and published in the Idaho newspaper. And these two leaks reveal what he sent over there. One is a letter that Joseph Fielding Smith had written in which he says, I'm going to paraphrase, but he says that I'm glad he's over there. Maybe his blood will be purified when he returns. He'll get all the politics out of him. He'll come back and he'll just focus on his ministry, which is what we want him to do. And then President McKay's sons, I can't remember if it was David Lawrence or Llewellyn, but one of his sons says something similar, that he's over there for politics. And so they're saying this privately. And anyway, some would leaks these letters to these two letters to the Idaho Statesman and they publish them. And so they're revealing what people are saying behind the scenes and nothing to do with church, everything to do with politics. And David O. McKay, when it gets leaked, he called Joseph filling Smith in and filling Smith is. He's a. He's a by the book kind of guy. Of all the people to be outed in this way is, you know, it wasn't good. And he was upset that the letter had been leaked. It was supposed to be a private letter revealing how he felt about Benson. And McKay is angry and President McKay is angry because of course he wants, you know, he wants peace in the quorum. He wants them to be unified. The Doctrine and Covenants talks about the revelations and it's important to reach consensus and unanimity among the 12. Well, it's hard to do this if you've got one member of the 12 or more who feel a certain way about another member. And so David O. McKay tells Joseph Fielding Smith, make this right. You need to talk to Elder Benson. Make this right. And so Smith does. He basically apologizes to Elder Benson, and these are core minute meetings where you read all this stuff. He apologizes to Elder Benson, and from what I can tell from Eller Benson's response, he accepts the apology, but pretty much he's, I'm sorry this happened, and he just kind of smooths it over. I support you, I love you. You know, that kind of thing. But there's no question about it. Benson's politics are off the charts. And let me just. I'll finish this last segment here, and if you have a question or, you know, comment. But McKay is interesting. He's caught in this. This, the middle of all of this. And he has. He's got two people pulling at him in different directions. He's got Hugh Brown pulling at him to crack down on the Burt Society and also to give blacks the priesthood. So Brown is just really pulling President McKay's arm out of his socket, if I could use that barbarous turn of phrase. So McKay's getting pulled by President Brown over the black issue in the Birch Society, and then Benson is pulling the aged Mormon president from the other direction, trying to get the church to align itself with the Burch Society. And McKay is really. He gets frustrated by it all. And he. When. When letters would come in and all of these complaints giving the church negative publicity, he finally recognized that he had to do something about the Burt Society and that even sending him off to Europe wasn't going to work. Because the minute Benson got back, he just picked up his. He never didn't change a thing. In fact, you can make an argument that Benson was more into the Burt Society after he came back than before, because when he comes back, Lyndon Johnson's now the president, and Lyndon is, you know, he's FDR writ, too. So with his social, with his welfare programs, Medicaid, Medicare, all of these civil rights, of course, all of these programs that Benson vehemently opposes. So anyway, Benson is pulling up President McKay and McKay tells him. He calls him in and he says, elder Benson, I'm an anti communist. I don't. It's evil. We're on the same page. But the Birch Society is hurting the church. You no longer have permission to speak at Birch Society events, their rallies, nor to Talk about them in General Conference or to the Saints. And so Benson is reproved by the church president. But Benson then says, well, can I still talk about anti Communism and President McKay? This is. I'm going to be critical for a quick second. This is where McKay makes a fundamental mistake. He says, yes, just don't talk about the Birchers. So what Benson does is he goes around talking about anti Communism and he talks about all of the Birch ideas, but he doesn't mention Birch or Welch. And so these Latter Day Saints, they can't tell that there's been a policy change. I mean, he's still saying the same things. He's just not mentioning that they're from the Burch Society or Robert Welch. His son can do it because his son's a private citizen who works for the Birch Society, but Elder Benson now can no longer do it in public. And so if you ask any Latter day Saint in 1967, 68 or 69 about the birch Society, and they, when they, when they would hear President Benson or Elder Benson, they would say that couldn't tell the difference, that there was a change because there wasn't. He was still giving the same conspiratorial message, but he just couldn't mention Welch or the Birchers. And then so President McKay made that mistake of allowing him to speak about anti communism as long as he didn't talk about the Birchers. And Elder Benson loved President McKay. Just, I don't know, I'm going to be hyperbolic for a moment, but just worship the ground he walked on. And so much so that in 1962, when Benson came home from the cabinet, McKay had seriously considered putting him in the first presidency. And he talked about it and Benson, in fact, it was so far along, it wasn't just an idea. It was so far along that the members of the quorum of the 12 were shocked when Benson didn't get the nod that it was given to NL And Tanner instead. And they really thought it would be that it was Benson's time to be in the first presidency because McKay admired him so much and Benson return the favor. And just to pause for a moment what that looks like. In 1962, Henry Moyle had died and he was the other counselor with Hubie Brown. So you would have had President McKay being the president, and you would have had Brown pulling at him from one angle on the Birchers and the race in the priesthood, and then you would have had Benson pulling on also in the first presidency, pulling at Benson again. So McKay probably came to his senses and realized he couldn't have these two polarizing counselors in the same presidency together. And so Benson, of course, wasn't called, but the 12, they all thought he would. They were prepared for it. And when N. Eldon Tanner was called, I mean, that was just a shock out of. They could. Nobody could see him coming. And because he was a no name in church politics at that point, nobody knew who Tanner was. And Tanner goes on to serve in multiple first presidencies with McKay, with Joseph healing Smith, with Harold B. Lee and Spencer Kimball. And he's a brilliant financial administrator. I mean, not a great speaker, public speaker, but a terrific person, balancing the church's finances and trying to figure out where to invest and so forth. So Benson is allowed to talk about anti communism under President McKay's watch. And Hugh Brown is just beside himself. He's damaging the church. He's a liberal. And so Latter Day Saints of any kind of moderate to liberal persuasion, they feel this affinity, this kinship with President Brown. And so they write him letters. They don't write other people letters. They write President Brown because they think they'll get a sympathetic ear. And so there's a. He's got a huge file in his private papers of letter Latter Day Saints who would write him letters saying, I'm so tired of this bird stuff. Stop. It's a hate group. It's hurting our ability to do missionary work. And they just go on and on and on. And President Brown would write them back and he would throw up his arms and he would say, he basically would agree with them. He would say, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not in charge. That's the President's purview. He'll have to do something about it. And so the only thing that President McKay ever did was just telling him, look, you can't, you can't speak at birch meetings. And he obviously gave President Brown the go ahead to give that priesthood session sermon about not using the birch recruitment meetings, making those recruitment meetings at Church. President McKay also refused to have his picture put on a Birch Society publication. Benson tried to do that, and McKay was angry at that. Obviously, if you see the church president on the front cover of Bert's publication, that sends the wrong message that the church is supportive of this group. Also, Benson gave this speech at BYU in June of 1968 in which he talked about conspiracy theories and gaddy ant and robbers and the Book of Mormon and all that stuff. And it was so controversial that David O. McKay dispatched Hubie Brown to speak at BYU the following week. And Brown said something interesting. He said, beware of those who preach the evil doctrine of racism. He's talking about Benson because Benson had some harsh things to say about Dr. King and civil rights at that BYU devotional. So McKay is doing things. But it's not until McKay dies in 1970, where the brethren feel like, okay, we're now in a position to reign him in. His protector is no longer.

John Dehlin [04:22:16] Well, if it's okay, I. Before we leave. Well, first of all, how much time do you have left today? Are you okay, Matt? Or.

Mormons, Race, and the Priesthood Ban

Matt Harris [04:22:23] Keep plugging.

John Dehlin [04:22:24] Okay. So we cannot leave chapter three without talking about, you know, the issue of race and the Birch Society and Robert Welch. And I was just. If I think about two of the most heinous humans in the 1960s, 60s, it's Strom Thurmond and Governor Wall. George Wallace. Right?

Matt Harris [04:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:22:49] And I was just. I knew this in the back of my mind, but, like, I was reminded reading this book that Ezra Taft Benson seriously pushed to be on the presidential ticket with two of the most racist, sort of, from my perspective, despicably racist politicians in the entire history of the 1960s being Strom Thurmond and George Wallace. And so take us through whatever you want to say about Robert Welch, about, you know, to the Negroes of America, the pamphlet that Welch wrote of. Of. Of Benson trying to get on the presidential ticket with two super racist dudes and David O. McKay being okay with it, which blew me away. Right. If I'm remembering right. And then how that. How that climaxes in this meeting that you talk about with Harold B. Lee, Spencer B. Kimball, Gordon B. Hinckley, Richard L. Evans, and J. Willard Marriott about how do we handle all the racism that Ezra Tap Benson is raining down on mormonism in the 1960s.

Matt Harris [04:24:03] Oh, my goodness, there's a mouthful here. This is so important to talk about because for a lot of reasons, obviously the church's priesthood ban, but also when President Benson becomes a church president, a lot of this stuff that we'll talk about right now is going to come back and bite him in the fanny. And so Benson has become radicalized by this point in the early 60s. And part of the communist conspiracy isn't just that Eisenhower is a commie or certain government officials at the top are communists. Bureaucrats are also communists. Earl Warren, the Chief justice of the Supreme Court, is a Communist. And the Dr. King. This is all part of the communist conspiracy. The Birchers and also J. Edgar Hoover, they're the ones that influence his views about Race the most. J. Edgar Hoover hates Martin King. Hates him, hates him, hates him. And hates the authority, the power, the audience that he controls. When there were 250,000 people at Dr. King's March on Washington in August of 1963. I mean, Jager Hoover goes nuts. Jagger Hoover, this man has way too much power. And John F. Kennedy, by contrast, hears the speech, the I have a Dream speech, and says, you know, wow, that guy's good. So the different responses between the Democrat President Kennedy and the conspiracist FBI Director Hoover, they look at Dr. King in vastly different ways. Well, anyway, so Hoover is the one that really is the first to exploit this idea that blacks had been a tool of the Commies. And by tool, that's just a fancy way of saying that they're being used. They're so stupid, the commies will use them and they don't even know it. And of course, right, they want racial equality. Imagine that. Racial equality. But sometimes when you, whenever you use the word equality, that must mean economic equality, too. And if they talk about economic equality too, that must mean they're a commie, because that's what the Russians want.

John Dehlin [04:26:05] And don't forget, the Jews are behind

Matt Harris [04:26:06] it all right, now that's in private. So anyway, so it's Hoover that really starts to talk about this. And they feel threatened by Dr. King and his energy and his charisma and his following. And it's Hoover that writes in his Masters of Deceit, and he writes a couple of other books too. Well, actually written by somebody else, and he puts his name to it. But anyway, they're talking about the communists using civil rights. And Dr. King and Hoover will start to target King. I won't go into all the details just for time's sake, but Hoover targets King and it's Hoover that says that. That Dr. King has. He's aligned himself with communists. And he. He's the one that starts to write about publicly that Dr. King is a commie because he's associating himself with communist advisors. And what's interesting about that is, is Skousen and Benson and Birchers will all pick up on this, these tropes from, from Hoover. And it is true that there were some communists in Martin King's inner circle. But what is not true is that these guys were not communists at the time that they were working with Dr. King in the early 60s, they were members of the Communist Party 15 years earlier during the Great Depression. My goodness, my goodness, there were a lot of people in this country who were affiliating with other capitalists or other economic systems. They didn't think capitalism was working. My goodness, 25, 30 of Americans are out of work. So there are some Americans that are flirting with socialism in communism and so forth. And so two of Dr. King's two members of the inner circle were members of the Communist party for a fairly brief time in the 30s and 40s, I think one guy was, I want to say a dozen years was the longest. And anyway, so. But Dr. King recognized that if he were to align himself with Communists, active Communists members who were dues paying into the party, that would destroy his movement. So he made it abundantly clear to these two advisors, and he had been warned too. It wasn't like he did this all on his own. He'd been warned, look, if you get these, these communist guys, you should just ditch them. Even though they're no longer active, they haven't been for over a decade, they're going to bring you harm. And it's true they did. But anyway, so Dr. King knew that they were no longer active. And these two men had denounced the Communist Party by that point, by the way, because Dr. King had conversations with these two advisors. So they were not active, they weren't sympathetic to the Communist party. But J. Edgar Hoover used that connection and that association to claim that they were still active. And one of the things that he did, what Hoover did, was they had a. There was a. A civil rights training school in Tennessee, Montenegro, Tennessee, I think it's called. And anyway, at this training school it was all about civil rights and trying to integrate. That's all it was. And Dr. King went there in 1957 or eight. He went there to this training school to learn techniques about how to peacefully resist and how to make your views known in a civil way, in a nonviolent way and all of that stuff. Well, apparently there was a communist there that was sitting next to Dr. King. And it wasn't the person in his inner circle, it was just somebody else. He didn't know the person. Anyway, they took a picture of it, Hoover took a picture of it. And this was proof that this was a communist training school. And anyway, Benson loved to talk about this picture. The Birchers would publish it in their magazines and King didn't know anybody there. He was there by himself. But somehow they made a lot of hay of this. So anyway, Hoover knew that he wasn't a. King wasn't a communist. He knew that he had denounced communism in private because he had wiretaps to prove it. And Some of these wiretaps have been published, by the way, Dr. King's FBI files. Not all of them published, but most of them are. The next segment is supposed to be published for the next five to 10 years. There's a time capsule on some of this stuff. But anyway, so Hoover knew that what King was saying about communism behind the scenes when he was. When he got a wiretap. Bobby Kennedy authorized a wiretap to Hoover. And Kennedy would later regret that, by the way, because Hoover would abuse it. But anyway, so Hoover had evidence that King was not a commie, but he used that, made hay out of it. The Birchers pick up on this, and they publish it everywhere in their literature. And this is where Benson gets it, not only from Hoover, but also from the Birchers. And so Robert Welch starts to write these incredibly racist screeds against black people and calling them all kinds of names and the civil rights movement, communism. And Benson reads some of this stuff and he writes some letters. This is great. That pamphlet you wrote to the American people on civil rights. That's wonderful. The best you've ever written. Can I have a thousand or 100 copies to give to my family and friends? He loved to give birth literature to his friends and family. And so he talked about the civil rights stuff. And a lot of the civil rights stuff was. Some of it was happening when he was in Europe on his mission. And some of the letters are the exchanges that Welch had made with Benson was about civil rights, what's going on with civil rights? Because that was obviously a signature part of Lyndon Johnson's presidency. And for your viewers who might not know US History that much, John F. Kennedy had started the Civil Rights bill, but only late in the day. Kennedy was a Democrat and didn't want to offend Southern Democrats. And Southern Democrats, by the way, were, oddly enough, they were the party of race in the 19th century. They're the ones who are donning the Klan robes. And the Republicans, the Radical Republicans are the ones that pushed for emancipation during the American Civil War. And then by the New Deal, there's this new electoral shift where black people start supporting Democratic candidates as opposed to Republican candidates. And the reason is. It's quite simple. It's the same reason why white people supported Franklin Roosevelt. They needed the government to help them. And they're dire time of need. And so the New Deal programs will help black people. And they've never returned to the Republican Party ever since it's been that way. African Americans have been Democratic voting bloc for decades now, anyway, so but there are some Southern Democrats who are. Who are racist. And John F. Kennedy does not want to support a civil rights bill because he's afraid of losing their votes. And the Black community, particularly Dr. King and others, Reverend Abernathy, there's a whole bunch of them. We always tend to link Dr. King as. Make him the face of the movement. But the truth is, there's so many incredible civil rights leaders at this time. And Dr. King would acknowledge that, of course. But anyway, the black community, Black leaders in the civil rights community were badgering Kennedy, please, we need a civil rights bill. We need something that will make it illegal to discriminate against black people in jobs and in housing and restaurants and schools and all of this stuff. Stop. We need somebody. And Kennedy just dragged his feet. And finally, the summer of 1963, this is during time when there were bombs going off in Birmingham, Alabama. There were bombs going off elsewhere. The Ku Klux Klan, they were targeting civil rights leaders and killing them, murdering them. Kennedy knew he had to do something. Damn the Southern vote. I have to do something. And so he starts to support the Civil Rights act in the summer of 63, and it starts to gain esteem. It's working its way through Congress by the fall of 1963. And then, of course, Kennedy's murdered November of 63, and Lyndon Johnson is the beneficiary of this policy that's been pretty far in the process by this point. And Lyndon Johnson comes from the Senate. He's got enormous clout, and. And he's able to get the civil rights bill through. And Johnson to his credit. Well, it depends on which day you talk about Johnson. But Johnson will sometimes take credit for the civil rights bill that Kennedy started, and other times he'll recognize, hey, look, this is Kennedy's bill. I just was able to get it over the finish line. But anyway, and for the nerds out

John Dehlin [04:34:37] there, the book Master of the Senate by Robert Caro is one of the greatest books, one of the greatest biographies, in my opinion, ever written. And talks in detail about, you know, how. How LBJ worked in the Senate, how he knew the levers of power, and how he was able to make things happen. And even though he wasn't as charismatic or as popular as someone like Kennedy and he ends up declining to run that second term, he still. We probably wouldn't. Maybe we wouldn't have had the Civil Rights act of 1964 without LBJ.

Matt Harris [04:35:12] Well, you're right. That is a great biography. If you have the stomach for 700 pages of Lyndon Johnson, there's a great audiobook.

John Dehlin [04:35:20] It's a phenomenal audiobook, so you can listen to it.

Matt Harris [04:35:23] Robert Carroll is a beautiful stylist, though. He's a wonderful writer, so definitely worth. I would hardly endorse that recommendation anyway. So let's go to the presidencies now with that kind of context. The Civil Rights Act's been passed. The Civil Rights act, it splits the Republican Party. In fact, that's one of the reasons why the Republicans get trounced in the 1964 presidential election is because half the party supports the Civil Rights act, the other half doesn't. And the people who support it, as I alluded to earlier, was moderates like Richard Nixon. George Romney is a moderate. And then you've got conservatives who oppose it, like Barry Goldwater, for example. But Barry Goldwater does not oppose it for the same reasons that Benson opposes it. Barry Goldwater does not think that there's a communist conspiracy with civil rights. He opposes it because it's a federal issue for him. He thinks that if you have federal legislation that mandates, you know, voting and discrimination, that you're going to have to have a federal bureaucracy to oversee it. So he's absolutely appalled that this might lead to more of a bureaucracy. And Benson, of course, supports that, too. He doesn't want a federal bureaucracy to oversee civil rights. So Benson and Goldwater are aligned on that issue. But Benson takes it one step further and says that we should also oppose it because civil rights is run by communists. And he starts to talk about this as early as 1963 at BYU, where he, where Benson now, he's known the Burt's people for a year and a half now. And you can start to see this coming out, that Bert's message coming out in his devotional addresses and in his General Conference sermons. And so Benson gives this, this anti civil rights address at BYU in 1963, and he'll give a couple of three more throughout the rest of the decade. He also talks a couple times in General Conference about civil rights, including one in 1967, which is just off the charts. And. But before we get to 67, the church is starting to move in a different direction than Benson on civil rights, which is that In October of 1963, the same month that the Brethren have called Benson to Europe to preside as the mission president. The same month, Hugh Brown will deliver this landmark address in General Conference in which he gives this very general perspective about civil rights. He says that the church doesn't. The church supports civil rights. It's not opposed to It. Which is a nice way of saying, we don't think that King's a communist. And if you're. If you're a member of the NAACP from either the Ogden or Salt Lake chapters, who, by the way, pushed the church into the statement because they were going to protest at the conference. I'm writing about all this stuff now in my current research.

John Dehlin [04:38:19] And there's the athletic protests that either are happening or are to come right during. Okay, okay, sorry.

Matt Harris [04:38:25] 1968. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:38:27] Okay.

Matt Harris [04:38:27] So anyway, in 63, the NAACP, they're going to pick the conference and Hugh Brown, who. Who's been trying to get them to lift the priesthood band for a long time at this, by this point, he meets with them. He and Elden Tanner, the other counselor in the First Presidency, they meet with them and they reach this deal. If we read something in conference, will you not protest the conference? And mind you, we have to get this approved by the president first. But if we can get it approved by President McKay, a statement, can we do that? And they say they agree to it. And Sterling McMurran helps to riot. This outspoken Mormon philosopher at the University of Utah. He's very good friends with Hugh Brown and also David O. McKay. And so he writes the statement. And President McKay, who does not support integration, he's like Eisenhower. He's just a man of his times. Doesn't think blacks and whites ought to coexist. But he also recognizes that this is causing a problem for the church. And so he tells Brown, he said, you can read this, but make sure you read it as part of your. At the first part or during your address, incorporate it into your address. And that way they'll think that you're just speaking for yourself. And Brown doesn't want to do that. He reads it at the first part of his address to give the impression that he is advancing a new church position. It's clever. It's brilliant, actually. And Spencer Kimball, Apostle Kimball, writes in his journal that night after the conference, he said, president Brown read a statement on civil rights, giving the church's position. Today, even Elder Kimball is swept up in this without knowing the, you know, the details, that there were members of the 12 who don't support civil rights. And so President McKay is trying to balance that between getting these civil rights protesters off our backs, but also not wanting to offend Benson and some other folks. And so, so he gives this address, and Benson is just furious.

John Dehlin [04:40:36] Who are the other apostles that. That, like Benson, were opposed to civil rights? Do you remember?

Matt Harris [04:40:42] Oh, yeah, Marky Peterson, Right Delbert Stapley.

John Dehlin [04:40:49] Right.

Matt Harris [04:40:50] Let's see. And Ellen Tanner, initially, here is somebody.

John Dehlin [04:40:57] What about Joseph Fielding?

Matt Harris [04:40:58] Aha. I knew you're gonna ask Joseph Billing Smith and Reuben Clark, of all people. I mean, these, when I say of all people, they have some very strong feelings about race. And I entangle this in my next book I'm doing now. But they, they, they, they were convinced. Reuben Clark and Joseph Feeling Smith, these really guys at these strong views on race, they say it's okay to support civil rights. They'd been writing this publicly, or at least in some books before Brown gave his address, because somebody had convinced them that civil rights is not antithetical to church racial doctrine. And so Reuben Clark and Fielding Smith said it's okay. And the reason why they said it's okay in their, in their writings is because Latter Day Saints were just bombarding them with letters. What about civil rights? Why can't we support civil rights? Why don't we support civil rights as a church? And so that's when Joseph Fielding Smith made this distinction in the 1950s when people were asking about Brown, the Brown decision, and they were complaining. He writes about this. They complain. Latter Day Saints were complaining about our position on civil rights. So he floats a trial balloon in the 50s. Joseph Fielding Smith, the church's most prominent prolific writer, and he says it's okay to support civil rights. And then Brown will give a similar statement a few years later in 1963 at the conference. And I want to say something I think it's really, really important to state, which is I said earlier that they're fearful of black sexuality, they're fearful of interracial marriage. They're not unique. Americans in general do not support interracial marriage in the 50s. Public opinion polls bear this out. So the brethren are not unique. But the civil rights message that Brown reads is. It's vanilla. It doesn't say anything. In other words, there's legislation nationally and there's legislation in Utah. Even as he was delivering those words, the naacp, they were trying to push through legislation the Utah legislature to penalize people who own, who discredit against in jobs and housing. That is that if you owned apartment complex, you couldn't say to a black person, we're not going to rent to you because you're black. They want to criminalize that. They want to penalize that. And also with jobs, we're not going to hire you because you're black. And Brown's civil rights bill didn't address those issues in jobs and housing. And the NAACP it splits them. Some of them are listening to this address at home, and a couple of them are like, yeah, he said what he said. Brown. They had met him and they liked him, by the way. They really liked Brown a lot, and they commented about him. They don't comment on Enel and Tanner, interestingly enough. He was there at the meetings, but they don't say a word about him. But Brown, they love Brown and. But there's a few people in the NAACP who. It didn't go far enough. It didn't address our needs. We need. We need protections and jobs and housing. Black people in Ogden and Salt Lake are getting just discriminated against daily in jobs and housing. We need something that will address that. And of course, Brown, he's in this precarious position because he didn't even know if the church president would let him give this lukewarm general statement, much less something very specific like jobs and housing. And that's what he does. So he gives this address, and Benson's upset. Benson, a year and a half later, gave a talk in General Conference in which he calls. This is 1965. He flies back from Germany to give this talk. And he tells the Saints in conference, before I left for Germany, I told you to wake up. He's talking about the civil rights unrest and civil rights marchers. This is a conspiracy. And after the dress was over, a reporter approaches Brown, and he said, I heard Your address in 1963, a little over a year ago. And now I'm hearing this. Which is it? Who's. Which is the church position that it's a communist conspiracy, the civil rights movement, or that Latter Day Saints should support civil rights. Which is it? And Brown looks at the report. He says, I speak for the church. My position is a church. He speaks for himself. So you ask about the let's. Let's segue, if we can, to the two presidencies that he's. He wants to run with. I think that.

John Dehlin [04:45:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Harris [04:45:23] In order to understand why.

John Dehlin [04:45:25] Really quickly. Just. Sorry. Super, super quickly. I remember reading Michael Quinn's book a long time ago. I don't know if those origins of power or extensions of power. But while we're talking about Brown, I thought. I remember reading the. Quinn alleges that there was, like, some moment where David O. McKay is feeble and the right apostles are traveling, and David O. McKay tries to pull a fast one and get the quorum of the 12 and the first presidency to lift the priesthood ban. And it almost happens, but then it gets scuttled. Last minute, somebody comes back into town, I don't know if it's Harold B. Lee or Ezra Benson, and it gets scuttled. Am I remembering that right? And is that just an urban legend or is there truth to that or do you even know?

Matt Harris [04:46:10] I just finished a 50 page chapter with all the details on that.

John Dehlin [04:46:14] Okay, so should we, should we wait? Should we have people wait to hear the answer to that?

Matt Harris [04:46:21] I can tell you what, I don't want to go down a rabble because there's a lot I just literally finished last week a 50 page chapter in which I talk about that President McKay agrees to lift the ban before he dies. And let me just give you the Cliff Notes here since we brought it up. And I'm sure your listeners might want to know this without the details because it's a process that happens. And that's for another conversation. Have me on again with my next book and we can.

John Dehlin [04:46:48] Absolutely. We'll have you on once a month, Matt.

Matt Harris [04:46:52] Anyway, so the short answer is, Mike Quinn talks about his book Origins of Power, Extensions of Power, the second volume. He talks about that that Brown was trying to work to lift the ban in 1969. And that's true, he was. And he'd been trying. Brown had been trying since 1963. He tried with Nigeria, opening up a mission in Nigeria. How can you have a mission in black Nigeria, right in this Africa, black African nation in the 1960s and have white people from Utah run it? That's just crazy. They're not going to accept this. So Brad, of course wanted to give him the priesthood. And there are issues too. In Brazil, for example, in South Africa, they can't figure out who's black. And this whole one drop notion that some other time we'll talk about all the details of that. That's fascinating stuff. Mormons who pass below the color line, they pass as white when they have African ancestry. Anyway, the brother, they know this is going on. They're baptizing and conferring priesthood ordination on people who have African ancestry. They know what's going on, but they can't prove it because these people look white, they pass as white. And some of these saints will later brag about it, you know, anyway. And in some instances they would tell African Americans, you know, if you went over to Tonga, they would probably ordain you to the priesthood. But if you're here in the United States, you stand out. Oh yeah, obviously the priesthood ban is not predicated upon skin color. It's predicated upon lineage. Big difference. And Anyway, so Brown has been trying to lift the ban for a million different reasons. It's, it's stymieing the church growth. It's just wrong to think that these people are cursed. He doesn't read curses into the scriptures like Joseph Fielding Smith does. Anyway, so Hubie Brown decides that this is in the midst of some athletic, some dozens of athletic protests and lawsuits and federal investigations against BYU and the church from 68 to 71. I mean, the church is just inundated with lawsuits, federal investigations over the ban and all of this.

John Dehlin [04:49:03] There's UTEP and there's Stanford and there's Wyoming. Right?

Matt Harris [04:49:06] Oh, there's, there's tons. Yeah, there are Benson or Wilkinson. Ernest Wilkinson says there were thousands. That's what he says. I find that hard to believe, but that's what he says. But, but certainly there are dozens and dozens and dozens. And that I can attest to. Anyway, so Brown recognizes the church is getting popped in the eye. And so he realizes that David O. McKay is not a hardcore person like Harold B. Lee and Joseph Hilling Smith and mark Peterson. And McKay doesn't think it's a doctrine of the church. It's a practice. And that's something that Lee and Smith and Peterson vehemently deny. Because if it's a practice, it can be changed by administrative fiat or some kind of decision that the president can make a policy. Right. As opposed to. If it's a hard entrenched doctrine, then it requires a revelation. And President McKay did think that it required a revelation to change this policy, but he thought it was a policy, and Brown certainly did too. And Brown didn't think that it required a revelation. He thought it was just could be unilateral act of the church president. He didn't need support from anybody to make this policy change. So Brown recognized that in the fall of 1969, during the apex of these athletic protests against BYU and the church for the race policies, Brown worked with the McKay's sons behind the scenes to get the ban lifted. And this is really crucial because In September of 1969, this is four months before the President will die. So David O. Dies in January of 70. So he's not doing well. He really has by this point, he's 95. Yeah, he's 95, about to turn 96, as I recall. And he's got moments of lucidity and most moments he's not lucid at all. So the McKay Sons team up with President Brown to convince their father or President McKay that it's time to lift the ban. And Brown says that if you don't do it, Lee and Smith won't do it. You've got to do it. And so he agrees to do it. He agrees to ordain a black man at the Hotel Utah, a guy named Monroe Fleming. Been a loyal member for a number of years. This is in September of 1969. And Brown's just ecstatic. And the McKay sons, who are very liberal, are ecstatic and how they convinced McKay to do this. Alvin Dyer, general authority, was part of these discussions. That's. We can go through those details some other time because it's really an interesting story, how they prevailed upon him to do this unilaterally when he'd been resisting for all these years. Well, anyway, so that's when the word gets out and Harold Lee learns about it and some of the other brother and they put a stop to it and McKay won't fight him. I don't have any energy. I'm old, I'm aged, and I just can't fight them. And so Brown will turn to the media. He's done this before, and he'll leak some things to the media that the ban will be changed very soon. And of course, Harold Lee is just beside himself because everybody knows that Harold Lee is going to be the next be a church president who will live for a long time. Joseph Hilling Smith is the next in line after McKay, but he's 95. He's about McKay's age roughly, so he won't be around long. And they think that Harold Lee, who's a man of youth and vigor and he's is there in his early 70s, and they think he's going to be like another David O. McKay who was the church president for some 20 years. So that's what they think about Harold Lee. And that doesn't happen, of course. Lee has an illness and he's dead a year and a half into his presidency. But that's the perception that he'll be like another David O. McKay. He'll be on board for 20 years. So anyway, that's what happens. They agree to ordain Monroe Fleming to the priesthood and Harold Lee puts a stop to it. And he has other of the brethren rejected as well. But there are some seeds that are starting to be sown about the. The vitality and the durability of this priesthood ban in the midst of the civil rights movement and also in the midst of church expansion abroad, when they can't figure out who's black and who's not Right. It's a huge issue.

John Dehlin [04:53:13] Yeah, that makes sense.

Matt Harris [04:53:14] Back to the 60s, though, if we could.

John Dehlin [04:53:16] Okay. Thank you. That was great.

Reed Benson, George Wallace, and the 1960s

Matt Harris [04:53:18] Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to be long winded on that, but.

John Dehlin [04:53:20] No, just great. So I've got Thurman and Wallace. Right?

Matt Harris [04:53:27] Yeah, Thurman and Wallace. So Benson's been radicalized by the Civil Rights movement and by Jager Hoover and the Burch Society. And oftentimes we always attribute all of his radical ideas to the Birch Society. And that's probably a fair assumption in most respects, but J. Edgar Hoover and Cleon Skousen and J. Reuben Clark need credit, too, because they're the ones that really get him going in the 50s on this. But anyway, with race, it's Hoover, and then it filters over to the Birchers, and then it comes to Benson. And Benson thinks that the Constitution has to be saved. Lyndon Johnson is. He's the devil incarnate. The Great Society is the New Deal on steroids. And it's not just Medicaid and Medicare and the Education act and federal aid to schools, Pell Grants, all of these social welfare programs that he creates. Throw on top of that, the Voting Rights act of 1965 and the Civil Rights act of 1964, and you've got just this liberal out of control, this Communist out of control. And Robert Welch recruits Benson, tells Benson that given your stature in the Eisenhower administration, that you would be an excellent president. We can campaign for you. And Benson had tried to run in 1960, and President McKay just said something interesting. He said, if they recruit you, we'll consider it. When. Meaning they. When enough people in the Republican Party, if they want, you will talk about it. But McKay's point was, you've already been in the government for eight years. Your reign was controversial. It hasn't been a good thing for the church. And I know that you need to save the Constitution because a lot of this is about saving the Constitution. But if they recruit you in 1960, then, you know, we'll see where it goes. Well, that's the same thing that happens here, is that Benson knows that if the President's going to sign off on this, they'll have to recruit him. And so they do. And so they create a front group. This is the same thing Communists do. This is so delicious. And irony. The Communists are notorious for creating front groups. Well, they create a front group for Benson called the Committee of 1776. And the idea of this front group is the Birchers are behind it. Robert Welch is behind it. William J. Greedy, who's the chairman of the front group, he's a Bircher. But they can't say the Birchers are behind it because the Birchers have been so thoroughly repudiated in the national lexicon by this point. It's also been controversial in the church. So Benson does not want to give the church president any idea that the Birchers are behind this. And so he doesn't. They call it the Committee of 1776, and sometimes they'll call the Committee of 1976 too, in. In preparation for the bicentennial of the Declaration of Independence. But anyway, so they have this secret committee, this front group, that's manned by Birchers. And I went to the Wisconsin Historical Society, and the guy who chaired this entire operation, William J. Greedy's his name, his papers are there. So you can see all of this stuff there. The Benson, the letters, Strom Thurman, it's all there. And letters that McKay would write to Greedy when he found out Greedy had to get permission from Benson. But. So for the longest time, McKay didn't know that Birchers are behind it. And Benson concealed this from him, knowing how controversial it was and knowing that if he told that the president that the Birchers are recruiting me, let me run. No way. And anyway, so they target a popular US Senator from South Carolina, been a former member of the Dixiecrats, the States Rights Party. Completely racist. He was a die hard segregationist. And at that point, Strom Thurmond had given the longest Senate filibuster in the United States history in 1957. He spoke for like 24 hours, filibustering against the Civil Rights movement. So this guy is a die hard racist and segregationist. And this is who they want to recruit for the ticket as the Vice President. And so Robert Welch, he flies to Salt Lake and he meets with Benson secretly in and around General Conference. And they choose to do that very strategically because if you can meet with Benson around General Conference, and that means that other Latter Day Saints will be there who can meet with Welch, you can raise money for the ticket. So they look at conference as a wonderful opportunity to boost Benson's profile. And anyway, so word will get out, word gets out that the Birchers are behind it. And I should just pause for a quick moment that the Birchers on this committee, they're mindful of the hurdles they have to get over. And one of the things that they said in private was that Thurmond's a segregationist and he's controversial. So that's a strike. Obviously, he's going to appeal to some people in the electorate, but not others. So that's a problem. They recognize this. And with Benson, they say his church doesn't allow blacks, Negroes, as they say in those days, they'd allow Negroes the priesthood. So they recognize that and they recognize the Birch Society is controversial, so they call that out, which is interesting. And then lastly they say, you know, this might be a problem because there's another high profile Latter Day Saint who's got his eyes on the presidency from Michigan.

John Dehlin [04:59:27] Right? From Michigan.

Matt Harris [04:59:29] Michigan.

John Dehlin [04:59:29] George Romney. Yeah.

Matt Harris [04:59:31] Who recognizes early on that Romney has to support civil rights because he's in a state that has a significant number of African Americans and because it's the

John Dehlin [04:59:39] right thing to do.

Matt Harris [04:59:40] And because it's the right thing to do. That's another whole issue. You know, if this is just for Romney, if it's just political expediency or if he actually believes in equality, okay, that's if I can draw that distinction. I don't know the answer to that, by the way.

John Dehlin [04:59:53] Okay.

Matt Harris [04:59:55] And from what I gather that I think Romney thinks it's the right thing to do anyway. So Benson's running against another high profile Latter Day Saint. And the brethren are just thrilled with Romney. Just thrilled because he's such an outspoken and charming and handsome successful businessman. He's got a great family. That image is really important.

John Dehlin [05:00:15] General. He was a motor company, Right.

Matt Harris [05:00:18] He's, he's the chairman of the Ford Motor Company. He's got a pretty good record in Michigan as the governor. He was elected, I think 1962, and they were eyeing him for the 68 presidential campaign. And so you've got these two high profile Mormons, Benson and Romney, and it's tough. Well, what happens is McKay gave him a letter and said, okay, you can run. We'll support you. And when he said we'll support you, he probably meant me because Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, they did not support Benson running. They were sick and tired of one of their own in national politics and they just thought it was time to give that up and just focus on the ministry. So they were not happy about it. And of course, Hugh Brown, I don't have to tell you what he thought about running, but Elder Peterson, Markey Peterson, Apostle Peterson, didn't support it. So nobody supports this. And they were just aghast when President McKay gave him a letter saying that it's okay for him to pursue this because people are recruiting him and they were just like, oh my gosh, President McKay's lost his mind. And anyway, so long story short, Thurmond is not into it as much. He just got reelected. He's like, ah, this is really. Why would I give this up for this ticket with Benson? He liked Benson, he respected Benson, and the feeling was mutual. But he didn't think that they could raise enough money. He didn't think that they would be able to get enough of the vote. So Thurmond just collapses the ticket. And then a year and a half later, this happens again, when the second probably biggest segregationist is George Wallace, who was a Democrat. He was a Democrat all these years. And of course, he's not going to win the Democratic nomination.

John Dehlin [05:02:10] Linda, isn't he Alabama.

Matt Harris [05:02:12] He's from Alabama, yeah.

John Dehlin [05:02:13] And didn't he, like, stand on the steps? I mean, something really severe? Right.

Matt Harris [05:02:17] Yeah. So when the University of Alabama had to be integrated by court order.

John Dehlin [05:02:22] Right.

Matt Harris [05:02:23] He has this. Wallace has this dramatic public relations moment where he stands on the door and he says, you know, segregation now, segregation today, segregation forever. And he becomes the symbol of. Of segregation in the country, along with Strom Thurmond. So just to be clear, I don't want to lose your listeners. Lyndon Johnson's a Democrat also. These two people belong to the same party. Guy from Texas, guy from Alabama. How could they be so diametrically opposed to race? Well, Wallace is part of those southern Democrats that date back to the 19th century, the guys who wore the Klan robes. And clearly he wasn't one of the enlightened Democrats like Johnson who believed in racial equality. And so Wallace knew that he couldn't get the. The. The party's nomination. So he joins an independent party, and he wants to run as an independent part. Independent party person. And so he. He reaches out to. To Benson. This is like 16 months after the failed presidency with Thurman. And they were pretty, by the way, they were pretty far along with Thurman. They had made some campaign buttons and done some other things. Anyway, they raised some money, but with Wallace. So they have this two hour meeting in Alabama in February of 1968. Reed Benson's with his father. Reed Benson still works for the Burch society at this point. And they meet with Wallace, and Benson comes away favorably impressed with Wallace. He's never met him before. And he writes his good friend Bob Welch to the birth society. He says, Wallace is great. I think he's wonderful. It tells him he's great. And this is after, of course, the Strom Thurmond ticket had collapsed. But Benson told President McKay or Wallace, he said, look, I don't know if my president's going to go along with this. I just don't know. You're going to have to really work him, and you'll probably have to even fly to Salt Lake. And so that's what happens. Wallace flies to Salt Lake to meet with Benson or McKay. I'm sorry. And President McKay. No. Turns it down. And because by this point, there's not this grassroots, you know, idea of recruiting. It's just a candidate saying, hey, Mr. President, can I borrow one of your apostles for four years? So there's no recruiting going on. Like President McKay had said in 1960. And also with Thurman, and also, too. This is 19. This is February of 1968. And what's really, really instructive about this is that fall, or that spring, rather, just a couple of months after Benson had gone to Alabama to meet with George Wallace and to talk about potentially running with him, that's when the first BYU protest occurs in April of 68. That's also when the Department of Justice sends a letter to BYU and says, we're coming after you. We're going to start to investigate you for civil rights violations. You only have a couple of black students and you don't have any black faculty. Clearly, there's something going on here. And that's another whole story. It's in my next book. But. So there's a lot of stuff going on with race. And the brethren are taking potshots daily from critics outside of the church and critics inside of the church. And that's a comment. I use that exact verbiage. Potshots daily. That's what they say in their first pregnancy meeting. They're taking potshots from Latter Day Saint critics and non Latter Day Saint critics. So it's in that context that Benson wants to run with Wallace. It's the worst thing you could do. Critics are already calling BYU and the church racist. And now you have a senior apostle wanting to run with a segregationist.

John Dehlin [05:06:05] Desegregationist.

Matt Harris [05:06:07] Yes. Well, yeah, but. But the. The symbol of segregation. That's what Wallace is. He's the symbol of all of this.

John Dehlin [05:06:15] Exactly.

Matt Harris [05:06:15] And his little stunt that he did at the University of Alabama. Segregation today, segregation forever. That. That was. That was publicized everywhere. And so anyway, McKay shuts it down right away.

John Dehlin [05:06:29] No.

Matt Harris [05:06:30] And McKay or Benson being the stubborn guy that he is, he. He won't let. No. He won't take. No. He asked him a second time. No. Asked him a third time no. And so he first told him no. I Think in March of 68. And the last time he told Benson no was either in August or August of 68, just a few months before the election. So Benson just kept on him. And I think it's important to know why Benson is so emphatic. He clearly has Potomac fever. He's got politics in his blood, and I think that's part of it. But really, there's a theological purpose to this. He has to save the Constitution from impending ruin. Lyndon Johnson has just. If Eisenhower did bad things to the country, oh, my goodness, look at Lyndon Johnson with the Great Society. So he wants to use his bully pulpit as the president to save the Constitution from socialism and liberalism and communism. And he writes this speech that he's going to give as part of Wallace's campaign. So think about the presumption here that in the spring of 1968, Benson writes a speech that he will use during the campaign. And the church president hasn't even given his approval. In fact, he's denied him. Right. But Benson writes this speech, and actually he doesn't write it. It's a guy named Verland Anderson, who's a Bircher. He's a professor of accounting at byu, and he's a. He's a good friend of Benson's, ultra, ultra conservative. He's also the first person Benson will call into as a general authority when he's the church president. That's a. We can get to that later. But Verland Anderson writes this speech, and it becomes the most famous and most cited speech that Benson will ever give. And. But it begins as a. As an address for the Wallace campaign, and it's called this proper sphere of government. Later on, they republish it and call it the proper role. So it's ultimately called the proper sphere of government or the proper role of government. And in this campaign speech that will later be given in General Conference as a religious sermon. You can imagine that. And also it's published by the Birchers. They make a film strip out of it. Cliven Bundy and Lavoy Finicum of the Oregon takeover a few years back. They love this speech. They quote it. Tara Westover's father quotes it. Who else? The Mormon prepper Julia Rowe quotes it, puts on our webpage. So it's. And it's also the basis upon which the American Independent Party in Utah. It's part of their political principles, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [05:09:19] Glenn Beck. Right?

Matt Harris [05:09:20] Oh, Glenn Beck loves this speech. So it's. It's again, it's the proper sphere of government or the proper Role of government. They just change those words depending on who publishes it where. But anyway, essentially what it is is it starts out as a Wallace campaign thing, and it's written by Berkshire at byu and, and Benson goes through an elaborate detail how they're going to destroy the welfare state, the Great Society, and it deals with money. We're going to cut it back 50%, and then the next year it'll be 60%. And then gradually, over a period of time, they'll phase out all of these federal expenditures towards the welfare state. And so obviously he can't give it as part of the campaign, since President McKay denies it. So he gives it in general conference and it gets republished by not just the Birchers, but other conservative elements who think that this speech is wonderful.

John Dehlin [05:10:15] Crazy. Yeah, so. So I'm, I'm. I was kind of floored by the way. Chapter three ends where there's this meeting with, with Harold B. Lee, Spence W. Kimball, Hinkley Evans and Marriott. First of all, I thought it interesting that the rich guy gets to come just because he's rich and powerful. He gets to be in the meeting, gets to be in the room where it happens, so to speak. But also it begins the introduction of Gordon B. Hinckley, who I think, I mean, not the introduction, he's elsewhere in the book, but I mean, Gordon B. Hinckley ends up playing a very significant role in chapters four and five. And I wrote in my comments, gross pr, because as they're thinking about what to do with the Benson problem and racism, the way you frame it, it's not really about like, how do we treat these souls? And these are children of God. And it's basically what's the right PR move. Did I mischaracterize kind of, kind of their motives in that meeting?

Matt Harris [05:11:32] No. So the church is under just attack from all quarters. As I mentioned a minute ago, this is the high point of the protests at BYU. And it's not just a protest against BYU's admissions policies vis a vis black people, black students. They're using these protests. The protests will evolve from just protest of BYU policies towards persons of color evolves to their criticisms of the Mormon Church. And you see that evolution throughout these three years of protest. The protests start in 68 and they end in 71. And then you get federal investigations going on of the federal government's investigating BYU for racial discrimination. The University of Washington suing BYU over its racial views. Dealing with breaking a contract with BYU is in sports. So there's a lot going on. And they and then they start to interrogate BYU's racial views, really start to try to uncover them. It's fascinating. And so they're, they're taking on, they're taking on water, there's no doubt about it. And it's in that context that Brown's trying to get the priesthood band lifted because he thought that it wasn't just the right thing to do, but he also thought that it would satisfy some of the critics and kind of tamp things down a bit. And anyway, so they meet in New York City and it wasn't just J. Willard Marriott who was there. They have a couple of other high profile millionaire Latter Day Saints. To be honest, the guy, I can't remember his name, it's in the current chapter I'm writing about. I developed this thought in more theme at greater length in the book that I'm writing now. But they have J. Willard Marriott and two other Mormon businessmen, wealthy businessmen. They also have two lawyers there that were well respected, one of whom is a guy named Robert Barker from Wilkinson's law firm in Washington D.C. then they have another lawyer, Mormon lawyer from New York City who is there. So you've got two lawyers, three businessmen and four or five senior apostles. And literally they're trying to figure out how to stop the bad publicity. It's just overwhelming the church to the point where wherever they would go, people would ask. The first thing they would ask to an apostle or a church president, giving a public relations, you know, or meeting with the press. First thing they want to know is when are blacks going to have the priesthood in your church? You know, and it may be in a temple ceremony, dedication, right. And they don't want to talk about that, but that's all they want to talk about. When will you give blacks the priesthood? And it drives all of the brethren crazy. Joseph Feeling Smith says in a letter, I am so sick and tired of people asking me about this. Harold Lee says it, Spencer Kimball says it. So they're getting this negative publicity from the BYU riots and from. We haven't even talked about some of the high profile Latter Day Saint critics who have a bully pulpit, if you will. Stuart Udall, who's the Secretary of the Interior under Kennedy and then also the Johnson administrations. He's a high profile Latter Day Saint from Arizona. He's not active in the church or anything, but he's sympathetic towards the church of his youth. And he knows the apostles from Arizona. He knows Apostle Stapley and Apostle Kimball. And so he writes some things that are very critical. In 1967. Against the church's racial teachings. That makes national news. Sterling McMurran, who was the Secretary of Education under Kennedy.

John Dehlin [05:15:02] Right?

Matt Harris [05:15:03] Yeah. It wasn't. I'm trying to think it was called something different in the 1960s.

John Dehlin [05:15:07] Right, right. Commissioner. I think, Commissioner, maybe he was the.

Matt Harris [05:15:12] The highest government official in the Kennedy administration with education. And he is extremely critical, using his platform, speaking to the NAACP in 1960 and then again in 1968. And when I say that these guys are reaching audiences, I'm talking about national newspapers publishing them, like the New York Times and the Washington Post. I mean, this is big. This isn't just the Salt Lake Tribune publishing something that McMurran said to the NAACP last night, you know, as he talked to people in Salt Lake. We're talking about, you know, these Associated Press stories that are getting circulated everywhere. So the brother. And they're. They're really upset by all this bad publicity. And so that's why they decided to meet in New York City, is they want to figure out what to do. And they had already decided a couple of years earlier that they shouldn't talk about the church's racial teachings in public, like, you know, to a journalist. Well, we think that black people are cursed or less valiant, and the journalist is like, what? Huh? What does that mean? And so they can't process that. And so in 1968, when all of this started at about the same time that Benson's trying to be on a presidential ticket with a segregationist, the brother decide that they don't want to talk about their racial teachings in public. Anything we say about the blacks or Negroes, as they said in those days, should be clear, positive and brief. Clear, positive and brief. And so that becomes their mantra. And that meeting in February of 1970 is crucial because it's where the seeds for the church's public relations department is born. And so in a very real way, the church's PR department that we see today, it's had several different iterations over the years, different names. Department of Public Affairs, Department of this. They always change the names, but it really gets started because of the. Because of race, because of the criticisms on race. And let's transition to. Back to Benson for just a moment, but I'll do it this way, is that the church has a bunch of people in the highest echelons of leadership. They're not pro civil rights at all, but they were forced to this into the statement because of the protests. And Hugh Brown would be a conspicuous exception. Elder Hanks, a man whom I deeply Admire general authority, also promotes civil rights and believes in racial equality. But he doesn't have the stature, the gravitas as the 12 does. And so he's sort of muted. But there are a few people who don't believe in the curse of Cain, and they believe in civil rights, and you see their voices time and again. But in February 1970, when they meet New York City and they make plans to establish the church's public relations department to deal with a coordinated response to the criticism of the. Of the black. The church's race policy. A month after that, Cleon Skousen, Ezra Taft, Benson's close friend, writes this embarrassing pamphlet called the Communist Attack on BYU or something like that, in which he blames communists for these athletic protests. Not just race policies, but communists. And by this point, I want to. This is really an important point to make, is that Benson has been told to lay off the Burt Society. You're done. You're done. And they take some internal moves to rein him in. And so what happens, John, is that there are surrogates who, who will step into his shoes and to continue to promote the message, but they don't have the. The ecclesiastical title. And therefore the brethren can't really reign them in.

John Dehlin [05:18:51] And it's. And it's kind of, you know, we can't really underestimate the fact that in Mormonism, if it's the son of an apostle, it's pretty much the apostle, right? If. If today, Gordon McHinkley's son or Jeffrey R. Holland's son running around dudes doing something. If. If Jeffrey Holland's son Matt. Jeffrey R. Holland's son Matt is like, chairing the national organization for marriage or whatever, fighting gay marriage. You know, he's doing it with the. With the apostles blessing. And so I guess it just can't be understated, the significance of Benson sending out surrogates like his son, because to the members, it's. It's pretty much by his voice or by my voice, it is the same.

Matt Harris [05:19:37] Well, I want to. I think it's important to know. This is a point that I think is instructive, that I agree with, with what you said. It's hard to imagine that Reed Benson was doing anything controversial without his son's or his father's, you know, blessing, because they were so close, not just his father and son, but Reed was his father's confident. And I think it's really important to note that David O. McKay. And from what I can tell from reading their journals and diaries and other. All of These really great documents that I've been privileged to see, they always try to honor somebody's free agency. So when Ezra Taft Benson, when his son was wanting to join the John Birch Society in 1962, he went to President McKay and asked him, are you okay if Reed joins? And President McKay's like, what? It's your son. He can do whatever he wants to do. He's not a church officer. You're different, though. And so President McKay was very clear that what your son does, he does on his own time. I'm not going to tell you to do it, nor will I tell you not to do it. And that was probably wise on President McKay's part, because if President McKay said, oh, yes, he should join, it's got my blessing, then of course, Reid would use that for a lot of mileage. And I've seen that before in these private diaries and journals and things that I've read that they're. They're always careful to let. The apostles don't want to dictate what somebody's children does. If they want to do something, then that's their job. The only time they would, you know, say something, of course, is of course, if it were breaking the rules of the church or something. Like one example, Hubie Brown's one of his relatives, of all people. This is really a strange story, but he wrote, or she wrote Apostle Lee a letter in the early 70s, so he would have been the church president by that point. And the woman said it was. Let me get this right, it was Hubie Brown's daughter. And so Hubie Brown's daughter wrote President Lee a letter and said that my daughter. So it would have been Hubie Brown's granddaughter. So this woman said, my daughter is married a colored man. And what do you do? What should I do? I don't know. She wants to marry colored man. What do I do? And Harold B. Lee just wrote back. And you know, unlike the Birch Society, oh, it's your decision, whatever. It's your daughter. He wrote back and he said, the church forbids this. This is not right that black people and white people shouldn't marry. This is 1973. This is like three weeks before Harold B. Lee died. And so he was very clear on this, that you're violating church teachings and therefore I will intervene since you ask. But if it was something just non controversial, probably Lee would have said what David O. McKay said. You know, that's your decision. You do it.

John Dehlin [05:22:27] Right. Right. Well, Matt, I'm. I'm going to run something by you and call an audible. I don't want to rush through chapters four and five and even the epilogue, and, you know, I've kept you on for five and a half hours. How do you feel about. How do you feel about coming back for the final two chapters in the epilogue? Or do you want to keep going? What's better?

Matt Harris [05:22:51] Yeah, we can come back. That'd be. That's just fine.

John Dehlin [05:22:54] That way I think we'll have more energy. Can you do it in the next week or so? Would that work?

Matt Harris [05:22:59] Yeah, I'm on sabbatical this semester.

John Dehlin [05:23:00] Okay. Okay. Okay, Perfect. So. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you one final question before we're gone. Only because we're, like, right there in the time frame. If you had to. This is an impossible question, but I believe in you. I think you can answer it. What if you had to go to the heart of the Brethren, the quorum of the 15, the first presidency, quorum of the 12? All this heat is raining down on the church. If you had to go to the heart of why they didn't just buckle and make the change in 68, 69, 70, versus wait another eight years. What did it come down to? Or what things. What things did it come down to? Was it true conviction? Was it pure racism? Was it legal stuff? Was it worrying about disaffection? And I know you're probably going to talk about this extensively in the book that you haven't released yet, but give us a preview if you can.

Matt Harris [05:24:02] Sure, of course.

John Dehlin [05:24:02] Okay. Yeah.

Matt Harris [05:24:03] Give you a teaser. So let me give you the thesis real quick. And then just for a couple minutes, we'll drill down a little bit. So there's a lot of things. Why don't they just buckle in the 60s? There's no doubt that's a rational, very rational question. It would have helped the church immensely with their public relations, but there's certainly a feeling they don't want to be that. They don't want to give the appearance that somehow external events are influencing them and what they do. And I think that's really important that they don't want to, you know, oh, they gave men the priesthood because of the civil rights movement. That would be anathema to them and how they operate. So that's an important point to make. Number two, there are personalities. I cannot underscore enough the how personalities factor into this. Hugh Brown gets cut out of the first presidency because of his activism. It wasn't just that he supported giving blacks the priesthood. He was an activist and he.

John Dehlin [05:25:03] That was after Harold B. Lee, right? Which Joseph Fielding Smith.

Matt Harris [05:25:06] That was when Joseph Fielding Smith was the church president.

John Dehlin [05:25:10] He cuts Harold B. Lee. He cuts Hugh B. Brown out.

Matt Harris [05:25:13] That's Hugh B. Brown out. And you know, the line was, oh, he's getting older and he's got some health issues. That's true, that's true. But he cuts him out because of his activism. And he also has. Hugh Brown was never close to Joseph Feeling Smith, but he was close to Harold B. Lee at one point. And they have this tremendous falling out and happily they reconcile before Lee dies, which is really a neat story. But anyway, so he gets cut out. And there are personalities. And I always, I want to emphasize that, that there, there are so many nuances with these personalities. It's so easy in the church to think, oh, they all believe that black people were cursed. That is so not true. David O. McKay did not believe that black people were cursed, nor did Spencer W. Kimball. They looked at Abraham Chapter two as a proof text that blacks were less valiant in the pre earth life as they interpreted that scripture. But they didn't believe that blacks were cursed. And they, they certainly like Joseph Smith and Bruce McConkey and Ezra Taft, Benson rarely talked about race. I mean, I've reviewed, I don't know, goodness, hundreds, maybe thousands of documents that he's written, both public and private. And I've only found him maybe once or twice where he refers to black people as the seed of Cain. And really, other than civil rights and all that stuff, it, you know, politics, that's his wheelhouse. Let the theology, let McConkie and Joseph Fielding handle the theology part. So there are differences of these people. Where you've got moderate people, I call them moderate because they don't believe that black people are cursed. That's David O. McKay and that's Spencer Kimball, that's John Widtso and that's some others. You've got the hardcore, the hardliners, as I call them. That would be Harold B. Lee. That would be Joseph Willing Smith, Bruce McConkey, Mark Peterson and Benson of course, would be part of the hard line. And then you've got people like Hugh Brown and Marion Hanks and probably arguably a couple of others who don't feel right about the band. They don't think it's right from a moral perspective. They don't think it's defensible. So you got these personalities that are the hold up, really. The third one, I'll be brief. The third one is with Kimball. It's hurting the Church, it's hurting the growth of the church. President Kimball, when he's the church President, in 1974, he outlines this magnificent vision to universalize the Mormon message, the gospel message, as he puts it. We want to take the gospel to every nation, kindred and tongue. And he's told by people that you realize you can't do that with this odious ban. And so Kimball sees this as a barrier to church growth, this ban. Another thing is that the. They can't tell who's black and who's not. They know. They know. They know. They know they've been conferring priesthood ordination on black people. They know this because they talk about it a lot in their quorum meetings, and they just don't know what to do about it. They. This is a conversation for a different time, but they. They try several different strategies. Patriarchal blessings, they don't have to do with blessings. How do you. How do you give somebody their black person their lineage? They've always been able to give blacks their lineages, which is the purpose of a blessing, among other things. But what do you do with a black person? Do you tell them they're from the curse of. They're from the seed of Cain? The lineage of Cain. I mean, how comforting is that, right, that you're being associated with a biblical counterfeiter? Or do you not say any lineage, which is strange because you're supposed to get your lineage and your blessing, or do you tell them that from the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or from the seed of Abraham or something general like that, which is problematic because those are the blessings of the priest in the temple. And so they. They've got all of these issues going on that they can't seem to quite figure out. They box themselves into a theological corner. And anyway, so one of the. The chapters that I'm working on now, in fact, is how President Kimball, how he is able to convince the 12, the hardliners in particular, that the band has to go. And President Kimball, he's been having these forebodings about the band for a number of years. He was always going along with the party line. You know, he's always a loyal guy, if you will, as an apostle. But in 1963, he tells his son Edward in a letter, he said the band may have been a mistake. This is 63. It's really an extraordinary comment.

John Dehlin [05:29:38] Who is this?

Matt Harris [05:29:39] This is Spencer Kimball.

John Dehlin [05:29:40] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Matt Harris [05:29:41] He says in 63 that, I'm going to just wrap this up, but I want to lead to a Crescendo here. So in 63, Spencer Kimball says the ban may have been a mistake. And then in 1969, he supports Hugh Brown to lift the ban into ordain Monroe Fleming. He supports this. And obviously he has to change his support when Harold Lee tells him he needs to change it. So he has to change his support. And he goes to Harold Lee crying, or, excuse me, President Brown crying. He said, I know I should support you, but I fear Brother Lee, meaning that he's going to be the church president and I have to fall in the line. So with those two points of contact, and there's some other things going on here where Kimball had been to South America and he had seen these biracial Latter Day Saints who couldn't hold the priesthood. He felt their anguish. And he knows intuitively this is wrong. But he also knows that there are some formidable voices in the Quorum. And so when he becomes the church president, he knows almost instinctively he has to lift this ban. It has to go. And the question is, how do you do it when you've got Benson and Peterson and McConkey? Those are the hardliners, right? Joseph Fielding's gone, Harold Lee's gone by that point, but you still got three formidable hardliners. And that's, to me, where he demonstrates his finest hour as a leader, is trying to work with them and to get their buy in. Let me say one last thing about this that most people don't understand. I think in the church, they have no idea what revelation is in the church. And what I mean by that is Mormons, you know, talk about it all the time. President McKay talked about it. You can lift the ban. Well, I haven't had a revelation, right. And I think most people would think that, oh, a revelation. God spoke to him and communicated an idea to him in some way or another, and somehow that. That becomes the revelation the president needs to do something. And in Mormon speak, I think you'll hear this from leaders a lot. They'll talk about the still small voice talking to you, or they like to quote Joseph Smith, the founding prophet, that revelation is when you get these sudden strokes of ideas into your mind. You know, that's God influencing you. And that's all true. I'm not going to dispute any of that in terms of God speaking to you through prayer or through some other example in your life. But when they talk about revelation and the priesthood and revelation and other things, they're talking about something so pragmatic, they sit around a table. This is Hugh Brown by The way this is how he describes revelation. He said, we sit around a table and we hash and we rehash something and we discuss it, we debate it, and then we pray about it. And then the church president says, I feel inclined to say, this is what we're going to do. That becomes the revelation. And there's nothing, you know, it's not like, oh, God spoke to me. It's all about consensus. They reach a consensus through prayer and through debate and through negotiation and compromise. And that's what becomes a revelation. And that's really the quintessential aspect of this revelation. With the priesthood ban in 1978, they have to come on board and give their support. And what I'm writing about now is how President Kimball is able to do that when you're dealing with people like Bruce McConkey, who has been saying for decades at that point that the blacks will never hold a priesthood in my lifetime. He says this over and over and over again. And he says a bunch of other things in Mormon doctrine, of course. So how President McKay is able to convince Elder McConkie and Elder Peterson and Elder Benson, these hard liners, to lift the ban, it's really, in my view, it's extraordinary. And there's a number of factors that goes into that.

John Dehlin [05:33:19] Kimball, you mean Kimball.

Matt Harris [05:33:20] Right, Kimball. I'm sorry, there's a. Factors that goes into that we'll have to take up at another time. But it's great. It's an amazing story.

John Dehlin [05:33:28] Well, yeah, it sounds like. It sounds like McKay just didn't feel like he could pull that off or wasn't able to pull off getting Lee and, And the others, McConkey, Peterson, getting those guys on board. Right?

Matt Harris [05:33:43] That's absolutely correct. Remember, revelation means consensus from the 12.

John Dehlin [05:33:46] Right.

Matt Harris [05:33:47] And there is no way he's going to get that consensus.

John Dehlin [05:33:49] Yeah, yeah. Well, this is, this is not in any way a goodbye because I want to go several more hours and the only reason we're doing it is so that we don't treat you inhumanely and have you have to do an eight hour straight interview. And I don't want to rush the two chapters in the epilogue. So what I'm going to do right now is thank you, Matthew Harris, for an amazing five and a half plus hours. The book is Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Rite. The professor is Dr. Matthew Harris, professor of History at Colorado State University, Pueblo. This is just such an amazing book. Everyone who's listening right now, go to Amazon. Buy this book. I will. You will? I will owe you a favor if you buy this book for me. We need to support good scholarship and let's get, let's buy thousands of copies of this book and make, and make Matthew Harris a world name and make his work world renowned. We need to support our scholars if we want more great books like this. Who doesn't want a biography on Joseph Fielding Smith or on Bruce I'm a Conkey, or on Boyd K. Packer or just pick your 20th century Markey Peterson, pick your 20th century figure in Mormonism. We want that history and so we gotta support our historians. So buy this book. Please share this episode with a billion people all over social media. Please comment on Facebook, on YouTube when I post this to Mormon Stories. Comment there. You know, do what you can to support Matt and, and let's just keep this stuff going. So, Matt, thank you for coming on. Any final words you want to share on today's episode and then we'll have you back just in a few days.

Closing Reflections and Wrap-Up

Matt Harris [05:35:50] No, I just, for those of you who have stuck with us for a long time, just thank you for being with us today. And, and I, if you have questions on, I know John will post it on Mormon Stories, but I'll look at those. So if you have questions or comments, I'd be happy to hear those. So that, that's great. Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:36:07] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Matt. And just so people know, what we're going to be getting to, which we still have to go, is a chapter called Remaking Ben. No, sorry, sorry. So chapter four is raining. Reigning in the apostles. So as you, as you have, if you haven't figured it out yet, Benson is not, he doesn't go quietly. And, you know, he's already defied several, you know, exhortations from his leaders to chill out, to back down and to, to stop. And he, and he's just tenacious. You got to give him that. And so chapter four is going to be about how they reign in Ezra Tap Benson. And it's just fascinating. And then the fifth chapter is called Remaking Benson. And it's about, what do you do when this guy's about to become prophet and he's been this PR disaster for two and a half decades, three decades. How do you, how do you remake his image and how do you keep him from destroying the church when he's the loosest of loose cannons that's probably ever reached the Quorum? And then we're going to talk about just the implications for the modern church and for the prepper movement and for the Trumpism and all the, all the cool implications and just conversations about conflict in the quorum and the church and PR and how they manage seniority and lifetime tenure of apostles and, and all that stuff. So, so much more coolness to come. That's why we're not trying to rush it today. That sounds great because there's just more to come. So. Matt, you're a. You're a gift to Mormons everywhere. And I just have to say, you're a class act in, in being fair and working really hard to be a top notch scholar, which is not just, just to lambast the leaders, but to work hard to get in their shoes, to see both sides and to be fair. You're. You're a gentleman and a scholar.

Matt Harris [05:38:28] Thank you. That's fair.

John Dehlin [05:38:31] All right, Matt, thanks for joining us again. The book is Estab Benson and the Making the Mormon Right, published by University Top Press. Matt Harris, everybody. Thanks to all our listeners. Thanks to everyone who commented on Facebook and on YouTube and thanks everyone who supports Mormon stories. If you. If you want to keep this programming alive, please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org click on the Donate button. Whatever monthly amount you can afford. We're transparent. We're a 5 1C3 and we'll use your money 100% towards the cause. So thanks everyone for your support. Support us if you don't want. Less than 1% of our listeners and viewers actually donate. So. So if you want to see this continue, please take a moment today and become a monthly donor. We really appreciate it. All right, Matt, you're awesome. I'll follow up with you on our next appointment. Okay?

Matt Harris [05:39:20] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [05:39:21] Go have some lunch, take a bathroom break and we'll be in touch soon.

Matt Harris [05:39:26] Okay? Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [05:39:27] Thanks, Matt. Take care, everybody.

Matt Harris [05:39:29] Bye.