Episode Transcript
Co-host: Samantha Shelley · Guests: Chanel Achenbach, John Larsen, Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo)
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introducing John Larsen
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:00:00] Hello, everybody. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast. Today is Thursday, November 17th. We are broadcasting live right now on YouTube and all over the Internet With a brand new episode. We have some fun guests in studio. If you don't know me by now, you will never ever know me. My name is Kara Burrell and also go by Nuanceo). I co hosted and worked as a producer at Mormon stories from May 2021 to March of this last year. So I am not John Dehlin. But you are in good hands. You are being held in basically nurturers hands and if the Mormon church asks, Syrian hands that are incapable of handling money, forging any kind of budget or anything like that. So that is a key into what we'll be talking about today. But the best hands of all that you will be in the intelligent, the ex Mormon podcasting legend. Welcome, John Larsen to Mormon Stories podcast. Hey, John.
John Larsen [00:01:02] Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:05] John is a real treat and every episode that we do with him, everyone can't wait to join in. So please keep your super chats coming. Your comments, we'll try to put them on screen. Sitting across from me, we have the lovely and talented, the intelligent, the amazing from Zelf on the shelf, Samantha Shelley. Hey, Sam.
Samantha Shelley [00:01:22] Hello.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:23] How you doing?
Samantha Shelley [00:01:24] Good.
Chanel Achenbach [00:01:25] Great.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:26] And then also sitting across from me, we have Chanel Achenbach. Got your name right.
Chanel Achenbach [00:01:32] Got it right.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:33] And Chanel, thanks for joining us. How you doing?
Chanel Achenbach [00:01:35] I'm doing fabulous.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:36] Great. And Chanel, you had a great panel discussion just last week as well. That was just last week, right?
Chanel Achenbach [00:01:44] Yeah, yeah.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:01:45] And that was really popular about not being like an activist. That the church was correct. Yeah. Okay, so hopefully you guys will recognize Chanel from that episode last week. So. So we got a great crew. It's ladies night, and the feeling's all right. I've already quoted two oldies and it's only one minute in. All right, well, that's the introductions. John is just over on the side running the soundboard. Thanks, John. And all right, John Larsen, take us off into your unhinged rant that we won't be able to pull you away from. What are we talking about tonight?
John Larsen [00:02:16] Those aren't really oldies, are they? Those are from my lifetime. You can't call those oldies.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:02:20] Oldies are from the 50s. Please let me stay in your yurt. You're very young.
Chanel Achenbach [00:02:25] You.
John Larsen [00:02:25] You failed to mention that you had come out to visit me this last weekend.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:02:28] I did, and I was going to put that in my hands. Introduction of who lets me stay in his yurt and cooks me home cooked meals on his farm, who I just flew back from seeing this past weekend in Oregon, John Larsen. So thanks for that.
John Larsen [00:02:42] I, I made Kara dig post holes.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:02:45] I volunteered.
Samantha Shelley [00:02:46] John Larsen was really good for her.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:02:50] I was like, where's my phone? No, John has homestead up there out
John Larsen [00:02:55] there in the mud. All right, so I'm gonna take. And we always kind of address previous issues from the, the other shows. My stand is, you know, we're just, I'm just looking for the truth. I'm just looking for what's right and I don't have a dog in the fight, meaning I'm not on anybody's team and nobody's on my team. So I'm always, I always am open to all kinds of criticism. And for correction. So first of all, I last episode I misidentified preferred stock as privileged stock. So the, the actual term is, is preferred stock. That's the, the stock that people who are more important than you get before you do. And I apologize for that. A couple of, of criticisms that came up from last episode. The, the one is, and I know we address it over and over again, but we get kind of heat for talking in the political realm. And the answer is simple. The church is and always has been very active in politics. And there's no way to discuss church history, doctrine, policy, and how it exists in the world today without actually confronting the political reality. So for that I apologize. Another criticism that comes up quite a bit that I think would be valuable to address is. And there is some merit in this, which is why I'm addressing it. I tend to criticize so called black and white thinking. But there are those who say, well, John himself, John himself is a black and white thinker because of kind of the rhetorical style. And I guess there's some merit in that. I would say that likely the only time that you, dear listener, ever hears me is when I'm on the Internet raging about the Church. And because the church itself is very polemic, it's very black and white. You know, you think about like what the church says about people like me, like apostates, what it says about things like the Catholic Church, which it calls an abomination. You know, we can go on and on and give examples. The church itself is extremely polemic and extremely black and white. So because rhetorically we are engaging them in their space, I made the choice years ago to engage on kind of the same level. So the church talks in hyperbole. It talks about heaven and hell and Saints and devils. So I talk in hyperbole inside the church's space. But. But I will push back a little bit on the whole black and white thinking thing. I think this is a great example of enlightened centrism, which is the idea that if you criticize both sides, that somehow you arrive at more truth. But those who criticize people for having black and white thinking, when they're saying things clearly and distinctly, they themselves are engaging in a bifurcation. I mean, the problem, the idea of black and white thinking is that you just see the. There's this side over here and this side over here, and there's nothing in the middle. But by accusing others of that, what you're saying is, I'm a nuanced thinker. You are not a nuanced thinker. And some of us are nuanced thinkers, and some of us are nuanced hoes. I think is the right term. Right.
Responding to Criticism and Framing the Discussion
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:06:18] Some of us branded ourselves as that.
John Larsen [00:06:20] Subscribe to your favorite nuance hoe. So it's kind of ironic that the criticism of somebody being a black and white thinker is itself participating in the fallacy of two bifurcations, that there's nuanced thinkers and black and white thinkers. But I do have more nuanced thinking than shows up here. But it's not oftentimes what they pay me to talk about. So that's what I talk about. Kara, what's your thoughts on black and white thinking?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:06:50] Yeah, I think that you said it. You hit the nail on the head about. What did you call it? Wannabe intellectualized centrism.
John Larsen [00:06:58] Enlightened centrism.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:06:59] Enlightened centrism. You'll see that in the political sphere, and you'll see that in just about any discussion where people feel like they, you know, see two extreme sides, that there are people who are on the extremes of like, you know, the alt right pipeline, and they see the extremes of people who want to have people have guaranteed health care. And they're like, look at these extremes. And that the weight and gravity and harm caused by one versus the other, um, aren't really comparable. So, you know, pointing yourself in the, the right direction while under, trying to understand the other person's point of view and being able to dismantle it is more where I would come from. So this topic, as well as that we're getting into today is especially relevant because I used to argue as a very, very conservative Mormon woman with feminists on, on Twitter all day long. That was my. I ran an anti Feminist Twitter account as a Mormon. So I've come a long way in three years, but I understand some of the problems and ideas that people run into, and I can talk myself into better ideas now through education and through empathizing with people I come in contact with through this last three years, leaving the church. That's my point. So, panelists.
John Larsen [00:08:11] Fantastic. Anybody else? All right, so let's address the elephant in the room. Oh, just smiling faces all around. Wonderful. Let's address the elephant in the room. And first of all, let me thank John de Lynn for taking a knee on this one. You know, there's a lot of Gen X white men in this space. There's too many of us, and that can lead to some kind of echo chambery sort of. Sort of behaviors. So because we're addressing this thing that really squarely impacts women, John graciously said, well, I'll. I'll step aside. And. And so we don't have too many just white men talking, which we. We have way too much of. I will acknowledge I was born one, but I really don't care for white guys that much, to be honest with you. All right, so why is a man doing this? Why. Why is this. Why is this here on. On this podcast with me? First of all, it's just a reminder. I am not part of the Open Stories foundation, that if you want to punish them by, you know, not donating to me, you're not going to punish them. I'm. John has allowed me to come on as a guest 12 times a year. So I get 12 bully pulpits that I can choose from each year and to talk about things that matter to me, and this topic matters to me. It's. It's extremely important. Not just for. For. Not just because there. There are women in my life who I care about exceedingly, but because discrimination and gender inequality affect all of us, every single one of us. I was deprived of my. In my experience in the church of having strong female leaders that I could model off of. They weren't there. They weren't allowed to be there, and that I'm less of a human being for that. Discrimination impacts all of us on all fronts. And there are those that say that what I should do is sit down, be quiet, and just let the women talk. I actually did that for five years, from 2014 to about 2019, I didn't broadcast. But you know what? Nobody ever sent me a thank you card for my contributions to feminism. During the five years, I wasn't saying anything. So I think that I Have an audience who listens to me, some of them like me, and some of them might not ever engage it with some of the fantastic female podcasters and those who are offering different points of view than mine. So the only thing I can do is add my voice to the chorus of many, look for opportunities to help promote the voices of those who are not given a chance, and then lend my audience to the things that I. I believe in, and I believe strongly about this. So, yes, I am another white man who came out of the church, but I, hopefully I can use that privilege that. That grants me, that, that, that. That allowed me to do all of this to help further the cause.
Samantha Shelley [00:11:34] Yeah.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:11:35] And after spending enough time in this space, I've also noticed that things that have more. That seem like. More like emotional polls that go towards more social justice ideals. Mormons generally are in such a conservative religion, led by so many straight white men, that they kind of don't want to be in a space where they're listening. This is a generalization, but I have noticed that they want to have nut punches at Joseph Smith, but they don't want to look at more systemic problems as a. As a whole, because a lot of that, that sexism is still going to be ingrained in there. So I think it's important that there are myriad of different voices and different people that people can relate to, and then bring on other panelists that can just add and snowball onto their ideas. Is that kind of what you were going for today, John? Hopefully.
John Larsen [00:12:22] Well, yeah, but the, The. The panel was picked by me because I have listened to and been impressed with every panelist. There's, you know, there's, There's a lot of different people that come on, but these are people who. I value their opinion and I want to hear what they have to say.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:12:40] Great. Picked a great lineup.
John Larsen [00:12:43] Yeah. And there's one other disclaimer before we get going. Since 2014, basically, the church has been in free fall and is constantly changing policy. And having discussions on church policy has always been a difficult game because the church only writes down part of its policy. Other parts it writes down, but it doesn't allow for distribution to other than church authorities. It has secret memos, and it has cultural norms, and it has unwritten rules. There's a great talk from Boyd K. Packer from, I think, back in the 90s called the unwritten Order of Things, which really is a fantastic discourse for understanding how the church actually works. So I'm giving the disclaimer that we're going to Be talking about church policy tonight, and it changes so quickly that we are likely to get something wrong. So we do invite correction on, on any kind of church policy that, that, that we'll talk about. And I'm sure we're going to talk about things that have happened in the past that still influence today. What I asked the panel is that we talk about things that are concrete and, and, and, and real in the. Not real is the wrong word. That are, that are, that are concrete, definitive institutional examples where discrimination is in church policy today.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:14:02] Big system thinking on the church. All right, sounds perfect.
John Larsen [00:14:06] That's a lot. All right, well, let's get going. So we want to talk about gender discrimination and how it plays out in the church because there are many people who can't see it, especially when they have been raised inside the institution. And I know for me, I just didn't consider those things for most of my youth and adult life. It just was the way the church was. And it never really kind of occurred to me to kind of comb through it, although I thought that in the world everything's better off when we have equal representation from both genders and cultures and all sorts of things. That's been my preference. I prefer a multicultural multi, multi, whatever. Different points of view make for better soup, I think, but it's just, it's just baked into the system. Okay, let's start. Number one, men are in charge in the church. Men are always in charge. In any calling that a woman has, there is a man who has veto power over that. There is always. And, and what's, what's interesting is, is the, the woman oftentimes reports into a lower male in the organization. So, for example, the Relief Society president will have one of the bishop's counselors who is in charge of the Relief Society. And the Relief Society president has to get that individual's approval for a lot of things she, she does. And we will talk about some more ways that, that the priesthood goes and, and and directs directly influences the way, the way the, the women are working. The, the priesthood authority, the male authority, always has veto power over the female, and he doesn't. And she doesn't have any recourse. Give you an example from my past. Of course, my first wife and I were unable to have children, which meant for the first, well, for my whole church career until I had children, I was always put into the primary, which you could argue I was a man serving under a woman. But it was never the woman who gave me that calling. It was always a man who Gave me the calling. And even though I was serving in what was traditionally a female calling, I think it's telling that men can oftentimes do whatever job we allocate to women, but the. The reverse is not true. The other positions and the positions of real power and authority, which we're going to come to in a minute, are held by men.
Gender and Revelation in Mormon Theology
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:16:56] Yeah, exactly. That the gender of the person really matters when it is in terms of revelation for somebody else. But there's no such thing as a woman who can receive revelation, really, on behalf of any man in her ward or assign callings that way. Yeah. What else you got? Are we moving on to the next one? Anyone else want to say anything on those?
Chanel Achenbach [00:17:17] Yeah, when you said about receiving revelation, I'm not sure if this is exactly what he's meaning, but a lot of times we relate based on our own experience. And I'm thinking, I remember my first husband. I wasn't feeling good about things, and so I went to my priesthood leaders, and I was like, I. I don't. I don't feel good about this. And I remember him saying, are you reading your scriptures? Are you going to the temple? Are you paying your tithing? I'm like, yes. And he's like, then what's the problem? And I'm like, this isn't right. This doesn't feel right. And I remember him saying, are you gonna question your priesthood leaders? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, excuse me. And I was like, well, this doesn't feel right. Like, why? Like, I've. I've done those things. Like, I literally didn't eat for two days because I wanted to know. I was fasting and I was doing everything. So my personal revelation was trumped by his revelation for me.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:18:25] Wow. I bet that happens all the time too, in the church. So, Sam, do you have anything else you want to add too?
Male Dominance in Mormon Life Events and Symbolism
John Larsen [00:18:37] All right, so I've got some. I've got some specific examples of this. Let's. Let's go through it. In all life events, religion, from an anthropological point of view, one of its chief functions is to preside over life transitions. Birth, death, marriage, those sort of things. In every element of life stages, a man always presides over those events. So naming and blessing of a. Of. Of a child, men perform that. Now, I. I know that there's been some words that are letting women kind of hold the. The infant. And I know there's women who are doing it and just pushing it and good for them, but. But it's. It's It's a, it's a male thing that, that they all form a circle and the men are the ones who take the baby from the arms of the woman who, you know, sacrificed her body to bring that infant into the, into the world and then they are going to give the name to the baby. Now in other religions it's presided over by a priest. So when the priest is a woman, she will do it. But in Mormonism, it's not presided over by a priest, it's presided over by the father or the closest male relative to the woman. So if it's a single woman, it's oftentimes her father or her brother or, or something in, you know, kind of Levitical way. And you know what's, what's fascinating about that is any man can get up from the audience and join the circle. They'll never say boo. So, so if you're blessing a baby inside a church, your, your, your weird brother in law might get up and walk up to the front and preside in this, or not preside, participate in this ordinance. That's, that's for the, the baby. And there's no, there's no questioning of that. A man can just do that. He doesn't have to have any connection. He's not going to be challenged. He is going to, to just walk forward. Baptisms are all completely done by, by men. Now we are allowing the, I think the, either the 2019 change or the 2020 change allows women now to participate as witnesses both in weddings and baptisms. That's progress. Good job, church. Except do you notice that the only thing that they're allowing women to do are the rules where they must remain completely silent. The witnesses have no say, no voice. All they do is they stand there and we're not even told what they're supposed to witness for. That's never, that's never defined out. They're just supposed to stand there and say, yep, that looks like a wedding to me. So we're, we're, the church is piecing out this stuff to women, but they're starting with the most inconsequential things that they can, they can think of. Nobody really wrote about or thought about, oh, I'm exercising my priesthood as a witness to a baptism. That, that's, that's really something that's way down on the list. Setting apart when in the LDS Church, of course, when you get a new calling, they, they will, you know, put lay their hands on your head and ostensibly imbue you with the power of God to Do the calling. And even though women are. Are calling other women into callings for women, they still are not allowed to set people apart today. But they used to in the church. In the early days of the church, women could do stuff like that. That was something that was taken away. Home dedication. My beautiful wife, Kimmy, she was single for a lot of years, and, you know, she bought a house and moved into it. And, you know, she tells me the stories about all this parade of men, home teachers, priesthood leaders, who came to her and said, well, I'll come bless your home. I mean, what is more personal and sacred than. Than somebody's own home? But the church so diminishes the value of the spirituality of women that complete, strange men will feel compelled to offer a single woman the idea that she. That they are going to dedicate the home.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:22:52] Wow. And what a home she has. I was just there, and she should be able to dedicate anything she wants.
John Larsen [00:22:57] It's really her house, isn't it?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:22:59] Yeah, it's her house. She's a great decorator, too.
John Larsen [00:23:01] And then, of course, funerals and burials. You know what's interesting, again, the traditional role in LDS culture is that when they can, the women will dress the deceased in their temple robes. But that's something that's done behind scenes. It's not something that you would have to know that and be an insider to know that that is a traditional. Because we don't give any. Any visibility to that, even though it is. It can be something very special and very meaningful for people. But then what happens is we dedicate the. The we. We have the family prayer, we have the funeral, we have the dedication of the grave site, all presided over by. By men. Now, again, I will acknowledge progress where I see it. I'm starting to see at Mormon funerals that women are being selected as pallbearers. But that shows the extent of this sort of misogyny towards women, that women have no participatory right in the ordinances of the Gospel because they. Even when it's not dedicated by the church, when it's not dictated by the church, that tradition is still pursued.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:24:11] Right. So, all right, all in all, I think you made a great point that from every major event that you'd have in your life, from birth to baptism, to all of the rites of passage, all the way to death, that it is a male figurehead who presides over every single thing. And that if it was swapped out for women, people would start to get really uncomfortable. But that is just a norm that we have come to accept within the Mormon Church. And it's just the water. So many people are swimming and they don't notice that there could be anything different, even if it's just a, a woman at the baptismal font. These small changes aren't that big of a deal in the grander scheme of all of these major events.
John Larsen [00:24:54] All right, next one. Red chairs. So you have all these great big red chairs of all these people in authority. Half of the church are women, half the church are men. That's his population statistics, population dynamics. And what you see is the men just filling up those seats. And there'll be a few that are dedicated to women. I think they went from just having, for a time, they would just have the General Relief Society presidency come on. Now they come on permanently. And I think they have the young women's presidency sitting there. But you'll notice that the culture and this is not dictated, as far as I know, that the women who sit on the stand in General Conference dress themselves in very bright, very kind of loud colors. I don't mean that in saying they don't look good. They're just. When you, when you compare it to the, the dress code of the men, which is my next point, there is in the Mormon Church a dress code of leadership. There is an expectation and we start hammering that into the boys heads when they're about 8 years old. And then in a lot of wards, they require the boys to wear white shirts and ties or, or something similar from the time they are 12 years old. It is important that they do not allow, encourage women to wear that same uniform. So by making the uniform of the priesthood, which is the uniform of leadership, which is also the uniform of, of the big kind of financial sectors in the United States like banking and lawyers and those people who are movers and the, the decision makers, the lever pullers in society, there's. It's not by chance that the dress of the Restored Gospel is the dress of Wall street. That is heart and soul of Mormonism. But you do not see a General Leave Society president who's wearing a white shirt and a dark suit with pinstripes. She will not venture into dressing the way the leadership in the church dresses. Even though we will address boys, young men in that, in that dress, we want to make a distinction of who is in charge and the way the people in charge look right. We do not use women's middle initials. So the, the way we say things authoritatively is, is Mormons will give this cadence where they always say the Middle initial. And what's funny is it's so pervasive that they do it even when they're refere people outside the church. So they'll say, dallin H. I quit doing this so long ago. What's Dallin Oaks? Middle initial, anybody? Yeah, H is H. Dallin H. Oaks served in the Utah Supreme Court. People will say that, but they won't talk about any other Supreme Court justice and insert their middle initial. So the middle initial becomes their authority name, their name of the priesthood, their name of leadership, their name of misogyny. So we will not honor any kind of woman by giving her the middle initial because that would be imbuing her with power and authority.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:28:17] Is that really, like when they get up and speak in conference? I'm trying to remember back. Do they not say, like, Elaine S. Dalton? They just say, elaine, Sister Elaine Dalton will now speak to the congregation most usually. Wow, I never thought of it like that. They. It's probably a nepotism thing because all of the apostles and stuff all have sons named after them. Dallin H. Hoax's son was my bishop, who was also Dallin Oaks. It's probably because they all have people named after them as well. And they are like the, the man in charge in their home. And they let people know by naming their sons after them too. But that's a side note.
John Larsen [00:28:51] Well, it's, it's interesting to think about where these things came from, you know, from an anthropological perspective. And probably this started because there were so many Smiths that had the. In the early days of the church. And like you're pointing out, you had fathers and sons named the same thing. So. So but then it just kind of stuck and then it becomes just another trapping of authority. And as human beings, we look for symbols of authority. We look for symbols of who is in charge, who is the one that we defer to. And that becomes a symbol of deference. And it is a symbol of deference that is not participated equally with the two genders.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:29:33] Yeah, absolutely.
Chanel Achenbach [00:29:35] I think.
John Larsen [00:29:36] Yeah, go, please.
Chanel Achenbach [00:29:37] I think it's interesting how you pointed out about the dress code. So the thing about men and women is I've read a lot of things and just through my membership that women needed to look feminine and like women. So you can't dress like men. And anything that is male oriented would be, excuse me, like dark colors, navy gray. And they. That, that is a separation to point out that you're a woman dressed like a woman. You can't be us if you're like us. Then you get to be on the same playing field, and we don't want that. And then when you were talking about the blessings, I thought that was very, very important for the simple fact that, um, so my first marriage of that man I was talking about, that didn't last very well. So we were separated. And who blessed my children? Who baptized my children? Men I didn't know. Well, on one of them, yes, it was men that I knew. But who was in the circle blessing my baby, Wasn't me, wasn't my father, wasn't my brother, wasn't anybody that, you know, I, I just thought that. I just, that just struck me when you were talking about that. And like you said, any other male can just walk up and say, hey, I'm, I'm in. This doesn't matter if they're related to me, if they know me, know my children. That's kind of creepy to me.
John Larsen [00:31:08] Yeah, yeah. I've, I've, I've known of instances where men have wandered up who didn't have the Melchizedek priesthood or whatever, or I think you need to be a priest to participate in that. But they, they, they weren't there. Or people who hadn't been in church in, in 10, 15 years. The, the, that's just that, that male masculine deference where if, if, if, if a woman even, even asks, say, hey, this is who I want in. In that. There was an old joke they used to tell all the time when I was a kid that the men get to name the baby because men would laugh about that and say, well, she could name the kid whatever she wants, but it's the man who has the say. Oh, on what the actual name of the baby is.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:31:51] Yeah, that's no joke because there will be men who say, when I go up, I'm going to feel inspired of what God's. He's going to lay a name on my heart, and you can't help it if I named him, you know, Tian S Smoot or something. So, and then that's it. It's in the records of the church forever.
John Larsen [00:32:08] That is a great name, though, by the way. I'm going to name my next lizard that. Okay, buildings. How many buildings do you see named after women? BYU campus. The church owns tons and tons of property all over the place. They're, they, they. You don't see things that, that are named out at them. The next one. Women cannot fulfill the measure of their creation without a man. This was, I, I did, I failed to mention this at the beginning. I Posted a big thread to Reddit and you can go read it out there and, and ask to crowdsource things. So as I get these that were given to me by other people, I want to call them out. No Brainer is the moniker of the person who said that this is absolutely true. That the whole purpose to come onto this planet and receive a body and fulfill the measure of their creation as the, the words in the temple is to have a baby for, for, for a woman. And she cannot do that without at least, you know, well, in the church paradigm, without a man. Right. She has to have a male who fathers the child or she cannot do what she was created to do by God. She is blocked from actually fulfilling the whole purpose of her existence without a man. A woman by herself in Mormonism can't even achieve meaning where men can come here and never be married, never father children and receive the priesthood and receive anointings and blessings and do service and do all these things that require nothing in terms of, of, of marriage. I, I don't know how more blatant that it gets than that.
Women's Role, Creation, and Motherhood Doctrine
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:33:59] Yep. And to fulfill the measure of her creation, I know we always think in terms of like having as many children as she can possibly have. And there's Benson quotes that come to mind of like do not put off having kids and do not be selfish on how many you have. And I know that's, that's effed up the minds of a lot of, of Mormon people who have had more kids than they really should have when they're trying to just listen to the prophet's words. But when I hear fulfill the measure of your creation, it really just means be completely subject to your husband because you need to have as many kids as possible to be as dependent on them as possible. So anything that would give you your own independent identity, independent wealth, independent in any realm, career wise, is always going to be substituted by the measure of your creation is not just having kids, but it is just to cleave to your husband as a very dependent problem for society when you realize the church is not true and you made a lot of bad decisions. But that's just me.
Chanel Achenbach [00:35:05] Interesting.
John Larsen [00:35:06] Well, and there's a. Oh, go ahead.
Chanel Achenbach [00:35:08] Interesting. I'm trying to be a happy, nice girl. I'm getting irritated. Okay, so just all of this triggering crud. So, so you think about something. So that first husband I had, I'm just sitting there minding my own business. Lady knocks on my door and she says, oh my gosh, you would be perfect for my friend Oh, I would. Okay. So I meet this friend, and like I said, it just wasn't clicking. But everybody kept telling me, you're not listening. You're not listening. You're not praying. You're not praying. So that's one instant I was 25, 26, and just telling me, something's wrong with me. Hello. You're already 26, and you're not married. You have no kids. You know, you're. You think the guys are a menace to society. You are. You're 26 and you're unmarried. And I'm like, okay, so that's triggering. And Mel's telling me what I need to be doing and who I'm perfect for. I don't. I have no decision in that. So then we talk about having children. So that first marriage obviously didn't work. And so then I'm like, okay, I'm working. I'm here in Utah. My family's in Texas. So I need to further my school. No, you don't. You need to find a husband. No, I need to go to school. I need to finish school. No, you don't. What is wrong with you? So that was from the males. So then all of a sudden, I'm getting a lot of visits from the females telling me, you need to get a husband. Also, the males told you to now finesse me. And so I. Now I need to get a husband. I want to go to school. I need to make better money. I need to provide for my children. No, you need a man, and the man needs to provide for you so you can be home and take care of him. No, I need to go to school. And so that was a thing that I was thinking about, and it just really upsets me because I'm thinking, I'm not just here to have babies. I'm here to contribute to society. Right. And to be a scissors. Nope. You're there to contribute to a husband. And when you guys are talking, I'm just like, ew. I remember that. I was there to contribute to a man, not to society.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:37:27] Yeah. The measure of your creation is to contribute to him, and you will never fulfill that measurement in the eyes of God until you find that man and run that household and get his. Get his kids popped out.
John Larsen [00:37:42] All right, so we were talking just a second ago about that. The measure of the creation of the woman is to have a baby with a man. What's fascinating is this next one that was brought up by Historical Trainer 87. Thank you, Historical Trainer 87. If women's only role in the universe is to create people. When we sit in the temple, there is one act of creating people that happens. It's Adam is created. But Adam is created by God and Jesus. So the only example we have in the temple of actually fulfilling the measure of our creation and creating another person is done by men. And, you know, sometimes I think the church just is with all of you. I'm not in. In anymore. You go into the temple to put on the robes of officiating in the. In the. In the officiating in the role of the priesthood. And there is an officiator in there officiating in the role of the priesthood who is not wearing robes. It's. It's. It's like they're trying to tell you that this is all like, if you were supposed to wear robes when you're officiating in the priesthood, would not the officiator be wearing robes? If the measure of creation. For. If the measure of their creation for women was creating people, would not the people be created by women? I'm just asking questions like Fox News.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:39:13] Yeah. Reminds me of your Plan of salvation episode that apparently, you know, Heavenly Mother was creating these spirits for 200 trillion years at nine months of pregnancy to create 217 billion souls. But she's not talked about. There's no whisper that she was part of the plan of creation. It's kind of been a later, further invention. But in terms of everything you see in the temple and your ideas about creation, it's Jesus Christ creating the earth and Heavenly Father and us being his spirit children and that. And then end of story. Just like when my kids ask where babies come from. Let me just cut that off.
John Larsen [00:39:49] Yeah. So in the temple, there's been more of a role given to Eve now, from my understanding, and that's good. But she did take the speaking part away from Satan. I think that's probably telling.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:40:02] Just give Satan's lines to Eve. They're pretty much the same thing. Devil.
Women's Absence from Leadership and Sacred Spaces
John Larsen [00:40:06] But where is our mother in heaven? It's imperative in Mormon doctrine that she exists. Right. Why is she not in the temple? Where is she?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:40:16] Yeah, is. I will have to speculate later about that, but there's a lot of reasons. Where are the women? What is. So what's the big problem with having more visible women for people to look up to if we know it? Patriarchy hurts men, too. It's more we like to say in this chair. There's really no reason for it except for tradition. But we can speculate on that once we get through this List.
Chanel Achenbach [00:40:39] That's interesting how you guys are talking about where's the women? The sad thing is when I think about where the women are in the church. You want to know what just came to my mind is the culture hall and funerals and funeral potatoes and women. None of the men are cooking. None of the men are there. It's just all the women. So it's like women are domestic and a form of, I guess, slavery, because that's what they're doing. Oh, I love to do that. Yeah. Okay. So that's where the women are. And so if you think about creation, so we can create life and create children and have children, but there's no mention of this heavenly Mother creating Earth. That doesn't make any sense. So you're talking about. She's not being brought up or talked about. I'd like to understand why, because that too doesn't make any sense to me. All this creation and she wasn't part of it. They don't talk about it. That's weird.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:41:48] It is really weird.
John Larsen [00:41:49] It's extremely weird. The best explanation I've ever seen, heard for why it's that way is that because they. They. The church leaders who do this believe that God actually has multiple wives. So which one would you bring in? You know, in the temple, you'd have like 14 of them or 70 or 150. So she has to be missing because she is not one. She is legion.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:42:13] Yeah. The more you ask questions, the more a whole other web of other questions would just be opened. They're just like, let's just shut down the conversation as soon as we can.
John Larsen [00:42:21] By the way, I keep making rhetorical references comparing women to demons in Mormon theology. I want to make sure everyone understands that that's a compliment in my. In my worldview. Okay, then the last one I have in terms of men are always in charge is that missionary leadership and the visibility there is always men. So when you have zone leaders and district leaders and assistants to the president and all that stuff, you have nothing but men who are constantly put forward. And in fact, we put forward boys when they're advanced. You know, in. In. In the priesthood, some words try to make it even by. By honoring the girls. And we're going to get to that a little bit more in some more detail. But when. When it comes to the. The mission, it is absolutely clear that men are in charge and women are. Well, if you ask most return system missionaries, there's times they're made to feel other. That they're just a pain in the butt.
Samantha Shelley [00:43:30] Yeah.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:43:31] I've heard from some people as well that when I was in the church, one thing that kind of calmed me down is I had a person I was going to church with tell me that, well, look how good the sister missionaries are. And I was like, yeah, they are amazing. Eve is in the chat, too. Hey, Sister Rackliff. So if you guys remember my episode with Eve on my new on SEW Chanel, and the sister missionaries were awesome. And I said, yes, they are. And he said, imagine if the sister missionaries had the priesthood and had all the power. The men wouldn't even do anything. They would just sit around like country pumpkins and not get anything done, and the women would just take over. Do you think that there's any validity to that argument whatsoever? Yes.
Chanel Achenbach [00:44:10] Yes, I served a mission. So I. I think that is very interesting how. Yes, we were the ones teaching. We went to these baptisms for the people we're teaching. We weren't able to help baptize. We weren't able to baptize them. We weren't able to give them the gift of the Holy Ghost. We weren't able to do any of that. Why were we allowed to teach them? Like, why you trust us enough to teach them?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:44:40] That's a great point. Yeah.
Chanel Achenbach [00:44:41] And to bring the Spirit in. But we can't baptize them and we can't give them a gift of the Holy Ghost. That makes no sense.
John Larsen [00:44:51] Well, and the sense that they try to give it is even worse than what you're saying, because, you know, if a sister missionaries teach somebody and get them ready for baptism, have them come to the church, they're going to have their district leader who is a child and could be years younger and just a few months on a mission, that individual will be given the responsibility of interviewing this investigator to see if they're worthy, and that child can decide whether or not that person is going to be baptized. And I have heard directly from friends of mine who are sister missionaries of cases where they decided that this investigator that these. These. These women, these sister missionaries had been working with and building a relationship with was thrown out by this boy, bebopping in, skipping in, asking some questions and then throwing the whole thing out. And, and. And, you know, I'm. It's not about the investigator here. It's about the absolute disrespect that that shows to the sister missionaries.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:46:01] Yeah, total disrespect. As well as sister missionaries just are always the ones getting assigned to the visitor centers. And I don't know if Anyone served a mission at a visitor center, if you were just like pumped to be in air conditioning all day or if you're like, well, I didn't mean to be a tour guide for a year and a half. And when you get to be like AP and have different leadership positions, you get a lot more license to travel and have better perks that I don't think sister missionaries are ever really able to have access to. But I guess the reverse could also be made that sometimes maybe they get cars more. But going back to my original question about the idea that women like young women, you know, 20 year old women would just take over a mission if they were able to do all the baptizing and you'd have these young men that wouldn't actually put their best foot forward and, and they would just lays out on taking responsibility, I think that could be possible. But I think better than anything there should be an equality pushed on missions and in other areas of the church so that men in their formative type of years that they do see women in leadership positions that they work like shoulder to shoulder with would be better than men coming back and going to byu. And they, they have never had a woman in any position in their 21 years of life ever have any say or any preside in any way over them. I just don't think that makes a good man. And it doesn't make a good system and a good church and a good place to produce more kids into that system. Does everyone a disservice.
John Larsen [00:47:35] No, we're really missing out. I made this point at the beginning, but I'll keep making this point again. As a people, as a church, as a society, when we do not have other voices who have other experiences, have an ability to influence policy and decisions to exercise leadership, we all miss out. So it's not just the women who could have served in these positions of authority that is the tragedy. The tragedy is the entire church suffered from it. Because you're taking half of the population and then you start adding in issues of race. Of all the different brown people who have been excluded of just types of whatever that we don't pursue, the church has been lost from that richness that comes from interacting with different people who have different experiences and it harms them. And the biggest way you can see the harm is it gets self perpetuating. People learn the norms of their society when they're children simply through observation. So if a child, be it a man or woman, grows up and all they see is examples of leadership and wealth or whatever in the hands of men, they're going to get those patterns stuck in their head. And that's not serving anybody.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:49:02] No, absolutely not. And of course I know people listening to this will probably comment that this is, this is not just the Mormon Church. There's all kinds of religions. I got a comment today on a video I made yesterday about this type of topic where somebody said, well, there's no such thing as any religion that has a female goddess or God or a female like led leaders. And I was like, let me tell you about Eastern religions for a second. But I think there's this, just this, this. Sorry, it's idiotic. Can I get ranty for a second? That just because society has always been this way and that women historically have had wombs and that there's, there's gender differences and all around the world, it's everywhere. It's just this is the culture that we live in that we can't form a better democratic society where people have choices. If we came down here and the idea of, of free will and the idea of having agency, but we're in bodies that were forced into gender roles and then everything from there we can just find these systemic problems that keep coming up again and again. Whether it's, it's abuse or people who are just in marriages that they won't be able to leave abusive spouses or be able to fend for themselves and their kids. There's just these perpetuating ideas that because it's, it exists in so many places in society that we just have to swallow it, that that's, this is the way Mormonism is. There's just no different, better way of doing it. And I think that that is really lazy thinking and honestly pathetic when we, we know that better systems can exist.
John Larsen [00:50:34] Well, and, and just the ignorance that it takes to, to believe the things that you're saying, where people say, what do you mean? There's no fe. Let's do an inventory, shall we? The Greeks were full of female and male deities. The, the, the, the Vikings had female and male deities. For, for Hinduism, there's both female and male deities. And Hindu gods are oftentimes depicted as gender ambiguous or, or, or you know, having traits of both genders. And the gods themselves have taken on avatars of, of, of cross genders. Gender is not important in Hinduism. That doesn't mean that there still aren't a lot of Hindu misogynistic men. I mean, but there are Chinese goddesses, there are Buddhist goddesses, there are great teachers of all Genders, anthropologists tell us that the more hunter gatherer societies tend to worship a divine mother as opposed to a father. And some of the oldest graven images that we have are of female. I'm so ostensibly female deities. So the idea that that God is somehow obviously a man is. Is a sexist idea to its core and not even borne out by just going to a library and opening a couple books.
Structural Reasons the Gender Split Is Maintained
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:51:57] Yeah, exactly. I think it's just you start with the presupposition that the Mormon God is who he is and the society has to be how it is. And you don't look. Recognize that any of the improvements, any of the, the progress that both genders are different races that people enjoy today are all because people said actually it doesn't have to be this way. And we slowly make progress in this way when doing episodes like we're doing right now, like pointing out there are so many things in the Mormon Church that don't have to be so biased and sexist, but people have got it in their heads that that absolutely has to be that. I got another comment today that said, oh my God, John, it was obnoxious. They said men and women are different. They have different bone density, different muscle mass, and therefore, like, men should be in charge and women shouldn't. Like, as if women are so emotional and they're not able to take charge and just forgetting the ideas that men also have testosterone running through their veins and that muscle mass means that I should feel inferior to somebody who has more muscles than me. Any. Any comment on. From the panelists from. Why. Why do people in the church just think that this is how it has to always be?
Chanel Achenbach [00:53:14] Well, I think about this and I think I get speechless because it's infuriating. It's weird. So when you think about missionaries, Sister missionaries, and you think about a place that I was in Bible belt where other religions had priests and preachers that were female. So. And then when a person says to you, well, other religions, you know, do it the way we do. Aren't you supposed to be the one true religion that does it differently? So why would you care what other people are doing to justify a bad behavior? I mean, it's just really weird. Let's just call a spade a spade. Misogyny, patriarchy. I mean, it is what it is and it's because of what fear that a woman can do what you can do or do it better or you don't want. It's ego, you know, just hubris. I mean, you just don't want because of what you think about women. You don't want them to be able to weigh in on that. It, I think it's bothersome and troublesome for it to be male oriented and not to be inclusive of other people. It's very, very dangerous. And it, it's just weird. It's, I'm not feeling any of that.
John Larsen [00:54:52] Well, you know, it's long been pointed out that there's a lot of men who are afraid of women for, for, for many, many reasons. And you know, and, and it just the, the stretch that people use to try to justify our lopsided system. Bone density really? Like, like the same person would never say, well, you know, I was going to vote for Larry over Mo, but Mo's got better bone density.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:55:22] Like, like that makes him a better leader.
Samantha Shelley [00:55:25] And it's like some Mormon dude who has like 20 Mountain Dews a day. It's like, yeah, I bet your bone density is incredible.
John Larsen [00:55:33] You know, if you watch animals. Okay, I'm not. Now I'm gonna get myself in trouble. Men are dangerous. They're, they're violent and they're strong and they're big. And you know, we often talk about statistics about, you know, women. You know, one in three women will be or will be assaulted by a man in a relationship, in a romantic relationship. Well, that's true. And that's, that's scary. And that's, that's, that's, that's violent. And, and women, I think most men do not understand the walking down the street and fearing for your safety. It's just not an experience that they, that they bothered to consider. And, and, but I've been assaulted by men. You know, like, men are scary and men are dangerous and, and I think we need to acknowledge that so that we can help train society to make us all more peaceful. And one of the ways we do that is, is equality. Misogyny appears to be somewhere that men reach for constantly. And we have to acknowledge that the men. And let's define misogyny is fear, distrust, or hatred of women. And it is pervasive. I can tell you growing up in the LDS culture how many times I heard passive aggressive jokes, statements, inside talk that that would always other women that would put women as less than. And then, and then put these traits on the men that they would say this is why men should be in charge. But none of those men would put other men in charge of them based on those traits, even though it does happen. Violent men are a problem for all of us, but they are particular problem for Women. And, and to me, it just seems obvious. I don't understand why we as a society are struggling with accepting this.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:57:40] Right. Men have this special connection to God in the Mormon Church. And I, if I were Mormon, I would say that the reasons that they need to have the priesthood over women is because they are so dangerous when they are not in tune with the Spirit and following the guidelines of the church and that will tame them to be better men. And that all those abuse stories, we just sweep those under the rugs. Those don't happen. But overall, if I was Mormon, I would say to that that the priesthood and the church structure makes the very best men, though, as opposed to just the wild animals out there harassing women. Not in our church. We don't do that. That's what I would have said three
John Larsen [00:58:18] years ago, except you're right. But you look at the church and what it does is it does the exact opposite. So it others, women, it silence them, it puts them in secondary spaces. So if you want to make the case that people do in the church, saying, well, women, it's the gilded cage argument. Women are naturally more spiritual, so they don't need the priesthood. Right. But the priesthood itself manifests as dominance over women. So if the goal of the priesthood is to help men make up for their lack of spirituality that women have, we have failed. Absolutely. There's no better argument for just flipping the whole thing and putting women in charge and putting men in the. In. In the back than to say that, that men need this because then what they need is the example and leadership of, Of. Of women. If, if Mormons really truly believe that women are more spiritual and women are, Are better and that's why they don't need the priesthood, then put them in charge. If you really believe that.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [00:59:19] Yeah, that's a great point. I never heard of it laid out like that. And in the church, we're always taught that we, as women, we have access to the priesthood. And just about anything that you'd want done, you can do through a priesthood holder. But I know that a lot of people have problems with that idea. Any, any comments on usually how that goes?
Chanel Achenbach [00:59:42] I just think it's interesting how, for example, you know, me as a single mom with two children, having to have to wait and call somebody else's husband to come do things I could do for myself. And I think about what's out there with. I believe it was Ballard, correct me if I'm wrong, Ballard, who said, women, we want to hear your voices, but just don't talk Too much, you know, and don't look like men.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:00:11] Put on, put a little lipstick.
Chanel Achenbach [01:00:13] Yeah, it's like, dude, come on. Like, I.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:00:18] Your knees are bony.
Chanel Achenbach [01:00:20] Yeah, I'm just. Yeah. They talked about the dressing and then, you know, you talk about dress so the men can go around without the shirts, but the women can't. I don't see what the problem is. Like you, you can't have it both ways. So it's because of. Of why. And they talk about the dress code with women as opposed to men a lot. You know, I'm just thinking about my mission and then thinking about, you know, I remember we had a correlation meeting with a branch president at the time, and we weren't seeing eye to eye on some things that he wanted to do. And it has to do with teaching people around that. That area. And I was like, no, we. We can't do that because. And I remember the lady was like, how dare you question the branch president? And I was like, how dare you question me? I'm teaching this person. I know this person. What are you talking about? Like, we're. We're not going to strong arm here. You need to listen to him. Didn't we say if somebody's unrighteous dominion and if they're not on the right page, you can question them? I'm questioning him because he's not making any sense. I'm questioning him because this is not going to work. And I know this investigator. I've been working with this investigator. Well, then you obviously don't have the spirit. And I'm sitting here going, okay, because he's Mel. I have to just listen to him. He could be wrong. It doesn't matter. But he's Mel. So now I have to listen. Got it. Okay.
John Larsen [01:01:46] The whole thing blows. But hey, we're just getting started. We got more of these to go through. All right, let's go on to the next one. And this one really gets me mad, so I'm going to start saying more naughty words. Trials in the church. First of all, you have to understand that the Melchizedek priesthood is given to anybody. As soon. If you're an adult male and they're trying to get you semi active, they will ordain you to be an elder. The idea that elders in the Mormon church have some kind of special status is, is, is. Is not true. It's just. It's just handed out like candy. Does anybody disagree with that point? No, I was just gonna go ahead.
Church Disciplinary Processes and Gender Inequality
Chanel Achenbach [01:02:30] No, I. So I can say naughty words like pissed off. So that does piss me off that the church trials, I would like to them to help me understand why the trials were with men, why that there were no women there. When women are having to explain what they did, how they did, who they did, and why there was no women. That's weird. That is absolutely insane.
John Larsen [01:03:01] Yeah, so you're exactly right. But it's even worse than what you, what you said. So if you have the Melchizedek priesthood, then you are entitled from the Doctrine Covenants to have a trial by the High Council. So you will have 12 high counselors, the, the, the presidency, the three members of the presidency, and then I think the executive secretary is usually in there and maybe one other dude. So. So if, if I am a Melchizedek priesthood holder and I fornicate, then I will go to trial. I can go to trial. Not everybody does, but because there's no. We don't write that stuff down. And I will go and sit before the High Council. And these tables are actually designed. When you see them, when you're not looking through LDS glasses, you'll say, oh, my God, that's terrible. It is this table that is wide at the top so the stake presidency can sit side by side, the three men, and stare down. This table where there's six men will sit on the one side and six men sit on the other side. And then there's just enough room for one person to sit there. And the tables are designed that way for these trials. And, and in what they have to do is six of the high counselors have to divide themselves when they're adjudicating and have to represent in their own internal deliberation. So they will come and they will question the witness. There's no real rights the witness has or the, the victim or whoever wants the perpetrator. I don't know how you say it. I'll call it the victim. But from their view, it's upside down. So six of the high counselors have to represent the victim, and six of them represent the church. And so, so there's all these men there now. Now sometimes they will excommunicate women in this situation, but because a woman does not hold the Melchizedek priesthood, she is not entitled to that. The bishop is free to excommunicate her on his own volition. Now, there are some rules in the church handbook that he has to have somebody. He has to have somebody else there when he's doing it. If I remember correctly, it's been a lot of years, but a single man who lives in the same congregation, the same community, could be a peer of that woman in socially and professionally and through their whole life, can decide her fate, can shame her, can excommunicate her, can deny her from taking the sacrament, which, of course is the church's biggest avenue of shame because everybody pays attention to who takes it and who doesn't. He can do that without consulting anybody. And the woman has no right of appeal. She doesn't have the right to appeal to the stake president. She doesn't have the right to appeal to the high council. She does not have the right to appeal to church authority. And the church authorities have bragged more than once in conference that if you write them a letter, they will just simply send it back to the stake. That it came from making clear to anybody that they will hold rank around whatever decisions that the priesthood make. Now, keep in mind that the priesthood are not trained. They are required. No course they are required. No handoff training. They just ordain them and then they're free to do whatever they want. In the confines of that, you say, well, the stake president might tell the bishop he can't do that and make him get released. How would the stake president even know what happens behind those doors? There's no recording. There's no notes taken. There's no nothing. The man can do whatever he wants, and he has. There are court cases and there are plenty that have been stifled where bishops have behaved badly. And this is what women are subjected to whenever that man learns she has done anything sexual.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:07:05] Yep, that's major.
Chanel Achenbach [01:07:07] I think, Okay, they're getting it wrong. They're getting it wrong. And apparently that policy is changing or needs to change, because I had to go to church court, and I think there's nothing more degrading and more disgusting. And to have a black woman sit there and have in the culture hall having seven white men look at her, ask her about her sexual life, her situation with a person she married, what they did, what her feelings were about it, what his feelings were about it, and how to explain in detail those things to get right with God. And of course, you get dis fellowship, and everybody knows what's going on. I'm a new convert to the church, so I don't know what this means, but no taking the sacrament, no talking. So when somebody hands you a little slip of paper and ask you to read it and everyone's looking at you and you hand it back to somebody, a bunch of men that listen to details of my intimacy got to make decisions about My life. And I think that is absolutely disgusting. And I don't know how in the hell they thought that was okay. I don't know how the hell they thought that was of God. And I don't know how anybody can go along with that. Because I was an older woman. I was 26. Well, what about these young girls that are 13, 12, 14 or whatever, asking them what they did, who they did, and it's, how did anybody think this was okay? I would like to know in comments who thought any of this shit was okay? Like, do you think any of this shit's okay? Now I'm pissed off because I went through that. So that means other girls went through this. I was a woman. These girls and the mothers and aunties and anybody else thought this was okay. Now that's disgusting.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:09:14] Right on. And that's the collateral damage of keeping this system, is that, you know, Mormon church, if you're listening to Mormon stories, you know, the collateral damage that these types of policies and doctrines have and the way that the patriarchal structure of the church is actually implemented in everybody's lives, we listen to it on Mormon stories. We're talking about it from an institutional level today. And it's just. It's just the. It will be what it will be. It is the. The. The damage is not as important to pay attention to as upholding these structures and keeping these traditions in place and keeping these men in power. And it's always been like that. And they think that they're going to go and move into different areas of the world that are more progressive and they're gonna fight against the, like, the progressive wave of more and more women saying, this is enough. We're not doing this anymore. And we can tell that their numbers are dwindling. More women and more men are becoming upset that we won't. We won't think this is a good idea anymore. We're not putting up with it very much anymore.
Sexual Confession Practices and Church Overreach
Chanel Achenbach [01:10:13] Okay, but how is it? My question is, how was it their business? That's weird. Isn't that supposed to be between you and God, true repentance and whatever it is that you're doing? Isn't that supposed to be a personal thing? It's now a public thing with seven men that you do not know asking you about a very private moment. That is horrible. That is deplorable. That is. That is. They need to repent for that. That is none of their damn business. That's weird. It's bothering me. That's not good.
Samantha Shelley [01:10:49] And it's so Bothered I am. It's ironic that that's all done in the name of viewing sex as something that's really, really sacred. And like, to me, nothing desecrates the sacredness of sex and sexuality like having this arbitrary, hierarchical, male led system where you have to talk about your, you know, talk about these intimate sex acts that you possibly did, like, you know, with great love and with great sacredness and to have to talk about them as a, like, it's just so backwards that it's all done in the name of viewing sex as sacred. When all of that belittles the sacredness of sex and you can get in trouble and have to go through that like, horrifically belittling, degrading, non sacred process for sex that was incredibly sacred and, you know, came from a place of deep love and respect for each other. And.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:11:42] Yeah, yeah, that reminds me of what's that Kim video, that seminary video where she has sex and she's like, we're engaged but we're in love. And he's like, it doesn't matter. Like whatever it meant to you, whatever sacredness that you guys held together, that's basically what you're saying is. Yeah, taught from the seminary videos. That doesn't matter how sacred it is. You need to tell us in a council of men and we are going to judge and imbue some type of punishment forever.
Samantha Shelley [01:12:12] Didn't you react to that woman message with us for Zelfo? Is that a different video?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:12:16] That was a different video that she was featured in.
Samantha Shelley [01:12:18] Okay.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:12:18] About. Yeah, crocodiles.
Samantha Shelley [01:12:21] Oh, yes.
Chanel Achenbach [01:12:22] Well, could, could you imagine, like, I want you guys to picture this. Could you imagine? So it was seven men when they talked to me. Imagine seven women sitting there having one man explain what he's feeling. Did you touch her? Did you touch your boobies? Did you do this? Did you do that? Did you like it? Does she like it? Imagine a man having to explain that to seven women. Your grandma, your auntie, your sister. Ew.
John Larsen [01:12:59] It's, it's, it's gross. I have a woman who's very close to me, who was single, had sex with her boyfriend, felt guilty, confessed it. The bishop said, how dare you do this to a priesthood holder? How dare you take that away from a man. The Mormon patriarchy is afraid of sex. I have said before, and I will stand by it. The Mormon Church is a sex cult and it is run by. Because it's obsessed with sex through and through, and is run by men who are afraid of female sexuality to the utmost degree. And we can Give example after example after example. I'll give you one. For years and years and years, the, the, the garment the women were forced to wear was loose and cut open in the crotch. There is no real way to wear a pad. So women had to just kind of work around it. It was a constant fuck you without acknowledging the reality of what it means to have a female body, the reality of what it means to be human. Because, because periods are not something that women have. Periods are something that humankind has. And we're all responsible for it. We all need to take care of it. And we can't just ignore it. We can't just pigeonhole and the idea that women. And we'll get to this. More examples where, where the men in the church are constantly blaming their own in on.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:14:36] Can you say that again? You cut out.
Samantha Shelley [01:14:37] That sounded like it was going to be good.
Chanel Achenbach [01:14:38] Yeah.
John Larsen [01:14:38] Wait, oh, John, where did I cut off?
Samantha Shelley [01:14:41] They are constantly.
John Larsen [01:14:45] Did we talk about the garments? Did you get that part?
Chanel Achenbach [01:14:47] Yeah, diamonds.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:14:49] They're constantly.
John Larsen [01:14:52] I don't remember it. Women are constantly blamed for this perverse male sexuality that is enforced and taught by the church. And women are seen as a devilish tempting object that's been taught. It was taught in the, in the temple that it was Adam was a good guy who had obeyed God's law, but it was a woman and her beguiling ways who cavorts with Satan. And of course all of this has sexual connotation, right? Everyone gets that the story of the Garden of Eden is about sex, right? It's 2022. We don't have to explain that to people, right? And the idea that men would be pure and righteous if it just wasn't for you ladies and your lady parts that are tempting us all the time, will you please keep it covered up because we want to reach heaven and it's your fault. Now people can say, hey, well that's just what men in the church say. And, and, and, and there's no priesthood manual that told that bishop to tell to shame my friend for, for disrupting another man's priesthood. But what the church does is set up an institution where she has no right to appeal, where they don't have to tell him not to say that they have set up the, the avenues, right? If, if, if I set up a hotel that in the worst part of, of, of a city and I pay by the hour and it's full of junkies and prostitution, it's not really right for me to say, hey, I have nothing to do with this. I don't know what's going on up there. I know what I'm doing. And the church knows what it's doing. The church is not stupid. It has tons of lawyers. And it knows that when it has no appeal for women that it is subjugating women. It knows what it's doing. The reason I get so angry at the church is because I assume that the church is that they're smarter than your average bear. And once you assume that they have that and they live in this same world, then you have to start saying, well, what's the problem with these guys? Why do they keep doing this? And unfortunately, the answer pushes back again and again to just flat out misogyny.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:17:09] Flat out misogyny. And I would also say an inflexibility of thought. And if you want to talk about some real black and white thinkers, it's the. The stage at which we are living in America today. I think people are really incapable sometimes of having nuanced and flexible thought about women and men having direction over their own lives. And that looks like a liberal ideal, but it's just called being an individual with independence.
Samantha Shelley [01:17:40] And I do think embracing sexuality properly is a threat to rigid thinking, because I do think, you know, when we allow ourselves to, like, fully go into that realm, there's a lot of self discovery, there's a lot of paradigm shifting that can happen. You know, sexuality is such a powerful energy that, you know, has, like, the power to reshape our lives in so many ways or to, you know, reshape us. And so, you know, in an organization that demands adherence to a rigid ideology, it makes sense to me, among other reasons why they would be so scared of sex, because it does it work. Sexuality doesn't conform to, like, this narrow blueprint that you can put in a neat little box. And everything in Mormonism is about putting things into neat little boxes. Right. Even, like, as we've been talking about the nature of God, like, God is a man, which to me feels so limiting to put. To classify God some, you know, like the oneness of all things into the category of male and then to, like, imbue him with human traits. And yeah, it's just all, like, so fundamentally limiting. And I think sexuality can be so expansive.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:18:50] Well said.
Chanel Achenbach [01:18:51] Well, I don't understand what the big fear of sex and sexuality is in this culture of Mormonism. Because you want to procreate, but you don't want to deal with what. What helps you create the babies. So let. So, for example, my shirt. Dallin H. Oaks Says I'm walking porn because you can see my shoulders. And to me that is just ridiculous. So you basically telling me I'm a Jezebel, that men cannot control themselves. They're going to do bad things to me because of what I'm wearing. I call bullshit for the simple fact that you could be wearing sweats. And if they have bad thoughts and want to do stuff, that's what they're going to do. Has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Because I mean, so think about why I came to Utah. I came to Utah in 97 because I went to massage school. So think about my income. I can't get income because people in the church are saying that me touching their husbands is a sin. So is somebody doing surgery sin? What about a gynecologist? Are they sinful because they help you have babies? So it is so weird that everything has to be sexualized. So it's not the clothing, it's not the massage. It's none of that. It is warp thinking mis information and just not being able to have real conversations. If you have lack of control, that's a you problem. That has nothing to do with anything. For me to love people so much and knowing that I can't handle the sight of blood, I can't be a doctor. And the next best thing is massage, where I can make them feel better from either. They're, you know, massage helps you with, with a lot of things. And so to be able to offer that. Nope, not touching my husband because what, like this is what I'm talking about. Clothing. You know, I'm, you know, I, I get now where I can't talk to a lot of people's husbands because the way that I dress. But you can't remember who I am. You can't remember that I don't touch anybody. You can't remember that. I'm not asking anybody to come over or sending them inappropriate messages. You have it in your brain that the way somebody dress causes problems. Good to know.
Samantha Shelley [01:21:27] So sacred. Such a respect for the human body and spirit.
John Larsen [01:21:36] So I've, I've said this before, but it bears out. Saying again. Sexuality is key and important to what it means to be human. It's a, it's a lovely, wonderful part of life. The church needs everybody in the church to feel broken. They're, they're, they're selling redemption and you have to be redeemed constantly. Sex is core of what it means to be a living being that has DNA. Almost everything that has DNA has sex to Some degree, there's asexual reproduction, whatever, but, you know, from mammals we all have sex, right? Is older than anything else that we have. So the old saying that you don't have sex, sex has you in a lot of ways is very true. The church needs everybody to feel broken. And it figured out this winning formula. It's like Slurm from Futurama. It's this winning formula if you can convince people that the thoughts, the sexual desire that is in a part of their firmware, part of their DNA, the genetic code that compels us and all other mammals to reproduce and keep living. The very life force. If you can convince people that those feelings inside them are unholy, unnatural and unclean, those people will have perverse thinking about their own selves and will constantly require medicine to fix it, which only the church sells. So the church has to deduct, turn sex into something that is evil because that's the easiest way to make people think they're broken. How many times have you all been in a testimony meeting and some guy gets up and says, if it wasn't for the church, I'd be out raping or whatever, you know, and it's like, geez, I, I don't, you know, like what, what are you talking about? He's not actually a rapist, but he believes that he's been, he's been taught that. And, and if we can get the, the, the, the men. And we've, we blamed it all on the women because men don't understand their own sexual desire because they're not trained to. They're not taught about sex when they're young. They're not taught about sex when they're a young adult. They don't have anybody they can go to to say why is this working and why is this not working? They're supposed to only have one partner, so they don't have anybody who teaches them how to do things. They're, They're. The men are never taught how to touch a woman. The men are never taught anything about women's pleasure. The men are never taught anything about basic sexuality. The only thing they know is that they're horny and women make them horny, so. And horniness is bad, so women are bad. And it creates this whole perpetuating cycle where everybody in the church thinks they're sick and they've got it completely backwards. Like, like sexuality is a beautiful part of being human. And the more egalitarian societies are, the more sexual everybody gets, the more peaceful everybody is. And when you look at like the bonobos. Sorry, I know it's a trope. Then they, they, they get along and they have a more egalitarian society than some of the other more hierarchical primates that, that where the, the, the alpha chimpanzees hoard females. So, so sex for, for men in the church is just another avenue of power. And we see this especially in the early days of the church where men traded women, they made deals for women, they hoarded women. They, they, they, women were just a commodity. And we still have not fully recovered from the polygamous years that spawned all this.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:25:22] Heber C. Kimball I give no more thought to taking a wife than I do to taking a cow.
Chanel Achenbach [01:25:28] Well, you know, there is another authority and I, I saved it on my phone and I can't remember, maybe somebody could remember who said this, but it was early church. Early prophet said that if a man is unchaste, the worst he's done is he needs to apologize to the girl's parent. But if she is unchaste before marriage, she's ruined their family and will cause discord in their home if she's unchaste. And the thing about all of this is also thinking about my years in the church. Women are not supposed to embrace their sexuality. They're not, they're supposed to be virtuous doormats. They're not supposed to like anything. They're not supposed to know how to participate in anything. They better not know. And to me that makes no sense. And so when she doesn't enjoy anything, there's a reason why you, you're not, you've not taught her that is okay to enjoy a body or her body or to know what she's doing or when she should do is that she is just there to his taking when he wants. And I don't know who's that fun for, but I think her embracing her sexuality and knowing what that means would probably make it a lot better for him. But I don't think he really cares. So.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:27:04] Yeah, another great reason for masturbation before you get married. The church should not be frowning upon people having, you know, sexual experiences with themselves. They think it's like a little factory. But I'm like, if they know where their spots are, it can only make their marriage better. All of the sex negative talk. If you want to build happy, healthy families, great sex is a good way to do it. But all the sex negative talk but not get us there.
Chanel Achenbach [01:27:28] There's, they've taught that touching yourself is graping yourself that's weird.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:27:35] Yeah.
Chanel Achenbach [01:27:36] What the hell?
Samantha Shelley [01:27:37] We kind of. Women.
Chanel Achenbach [01:27:37] Don't you want to have more fun that you would have more fun than. Maybe I should know what I'm doing and not be scared of you and thinking it's terrible when. If you just know where it is, so much better.
John Larsen [01:27:52] What does it mean if I wear a ball gag when I'm masturbating? I'm dead.
Chanel Achenbach [01:27:57] I'm dead.
John Larsen [01:27:58] Let's move forward. Enough of that. All right. Let's talk about marriage. I was floored when I reviewed this last week, the changes in the temple ceremony. I was trying to catch up, and I read it, and I haven't seen anybody else point this out, because generally speaking, they. They improved the. The. You know, the women are no longer pledging to obey their husband. They're both pledging equally to obey God. Women don't have to veil their faces anymore, but they still wear veils. But there. There was one thing that I thought was amazing, and I failed to write it down, so I apologize. I'll find it. There is a line in the temple that says, after you put your robes on the right shoulder, it says, in preparatory for officiating or. Or presiding or. It's one of those. It's one of those priesthood words. And women have for a long time used that as an example to say that they were given the priesthood in the temple, that it was an avenue to say, see, they're actually given authority in the temple. They changed that language, and it is no longer ambiguous. So even though they made all these changes, they still slipped a you into the women and made sure that it wasn't ambiguous that women are not given the priesthood. Okay, as long as we're talking about marriage, let's go forward. Women still today are required to share their name. So when people go through the temple, they are given a new name, and that name is the name by which they will be called forth out of the grave in the resurrection. So Mormon teachings are that the man is resurrected first. This is traditional Mormon teaching. And then the man will call forth his wife out of the grave. That the woman is literally dependent upon her husband to be resurrected, ostensibly meaning if he doesn't call her out, she will stay dead forever. So the woman had to give the sacred name to her husband, but the man never has to share his sacred name, giving her power over his resurrection to her. That is still in the temple today.
Temple Ceremony, Marriage Covenants, and Women's Standing
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:30:15] Not what I was expecting. You would have thought, in my 19 years being in the Mormon Church, I would have had an idea about what the resurrection was going to look like after all my years of seminary, what I thought I would have thought, what just the afterlife would have looked like generally of like me going to embrace Jesus and giving me a big hug. And it wasn't until I was endowed at 19 years old, a week before my wedding day, that I realized that God's really has. He's really hung up on names and a lot more. A lot more pedantic than I ever thought that he was. And that I won't even get resurrected unless Aaron Burrell remembers to call me Rachel when we die. He. We've been through a lot. We might have been through 80 years, and he's going to remember some friend's character that was relevant in the 90s. Good luck to all of us Rachels.
John Larsen [01:31:02] What I think is really sad is they pulled all the names out of the scriptures, and of course, there's not very many. Most of the women in the scriptures are villains.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:31:09] So another problem.
John Larsen [01:31:12] A small set of names that you guys have to choose from. I'm sorry, you all share the same 10 names or whatever it is.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:31:21] Yep.
John Larsen [01:31:21] So I would just. I would just. I could. I can call you out of the grave. I just have to rotate through those 10 names till I get. I get to the one that you are.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:31:28] Hopefully there's a telephone in the afterlife and he can call the desk at the temple where I was endowed and he can have them look up the records of December 18th or whatever. Yeah, that was the Rachel Day.
John Larsen [01:31:40] There was a big. This is. I was proud of this. This happened in the early 2000s. Ex Mormons got together and crowdsourced and reproduced the entire name schedule by everybody just saying, well, I went to the temple on this day and this is the name they gave me. So we were able to reverse engineer the church's name rotation for the temple.
Chanel Achenbach [01:32:00] I wonder what it would be like if they gave a bunch of ethnic names to some of the people. Because the name I got.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:32:08] Yeah, that's a good point.
Chanel Achenbach [01:32:10] I mean, seriously, could you imagine some of the sisters if they were just called, like, Banquique or something?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:32:16] Just.
Chanel Achenbach [01:32:17] No, they wouldn't go for it. They wouldn't.
Samantha Shelley [01:32:20] That needs to be a skit.
Chanel Achenbach [01:32:21] The reason why I say bonkweek is because when Black Menaces did a video and this guy was saying, oh, yeah, I almost dated a black girl once. Her name was. And it really was Shanay Nay. And it was like, okay, he just used some really weird ethnic. Yeah, it was. It was just weird. So that's why I was saying Bonque.
John Larsen [01:32:42] So well, that's, you know, there's, there's an essay out there that I ran into and people had, had recommended on the thread. And Kara, you just used that essay. What was her name? And, and, and, and kind of, kind of go. It was written a couple years ago. Can you go over that?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:32:58] Yeah. So I came across, I was looking for this episode as well and I came across this great article that I never read before by Amy, Amy McPhee Alabest. And she has a couple Mormon stories, interviews over here. And she has this great article called Mormon dear Mormon men, what would you do? And she describes her journey through why she became fed up with the sexism in the church. And she says, imagine you Mormon man, you were blessed by, you know, born to a loving heavenly mother and your elder sister. And she just reverses all of the, like the gendered pronouns and prophetesses and that you look up to the great prophetesses of old and the apostolic and all of the descendants of Josephine of Egypt. And you graduated from Bridget Young University. And she does this great article of every aspect of a Mormon person's life. All these different rites of passage that we talked about earlier, like baptism and going through the temple, but all if it was women in charge and men just kind of being off to the sidelines, how you as a man would interpret that and just kind of a long vision of a, of a thought exercise of. Then you come to the end of your life and like, how fed up would you be if you had put your heart and soul into your calling and you're trying to ask for equality, equality and nobody's listening to you. And then like we were talking about with the, the structure of the way that men can call women and, and dismiss them from their roles. How frustrated would you be if you'd given all of this and you're trying to ask for equality and you are asked to peace out and just giving people an empathetic thought exercise that I think is really powerful. So I took some of her writings and created a tick tock and an Instagram and a YouTube video out of that, acting it out.
John Larsen [01:34:45] Hey, Maven, if you could, would you put a link to it in the, in the notes for that, for this one? Everyone should read it. And I'd love to read the, the same sort of thing, you know, that takes all of this, not just genderized, you know, telling the story of being in the church from, from a male perspective when it would all be women. I would love to See the same thing rewritten from different cultural perspectives. You know, so, so that, so that the white Mormons can see how much they marinate in white culture all the time and how, and how they just assume that it's dominant. You know, that if Chanel, like you were saying, if they use different names, you know, like black names or Hispanic names or, you know, Hispanic culture elements, and retold the story of Joseph Smith, you know, completely like in Venezuelan culture, like, like, like the white Mormons would have kittens.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:35:43] It would look more authentic for one, that it was actually from like ancient American Jews or something.
Chanel Achenbach [01:35:48] But have more than getting.
Women's Organizations as Subordinate Auxiliaries
John Larsen [01:35:50] Yeah, okay, let's. Let's move forward. Let's. Let's skip to. This is one of my big favorites. Every organization that women can participate in in the church is called an auxiliary. I, I can't think of anything more insulting than that. Auxiliary literally means that it's not necessary or not part of the main or a side branch. But, you know, Sunday school, where women can participate, Relief Society, where women can participate in the nursery or the nursery in the primary. Are all auxiliaries. Just a great big fuck you saying every. Not only are we going to give you some. Only a small set of roles, but we are going to shade those roles so that, you know, that we think they're not really necessary.
Samantha Shelley [01:36:40] Sounds like projection to me.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:36:42] Indeed.
Church Governance Structures and Financial Control
John Larsen [01:36:44] Okay, so let's talk a little bit about governance. I talked in the beginning about men are in charge. But it gets worse than that. Let's talk about the actual governance of the church. First of all, the ward governance is there is a bishop bishopric. He has two counselors and they must be men. And then he has an executive secretary who must also be a man. And he has a ward clerk who must also be a man. And he has a. A finance clerk who must also be a man. So they have a meeting that they have quite regularly, the bishopric meeting with the bishopric, the first counselor, the second counselor, the executive secretary, and the ward clerk. The finance clerk usually doesn't come to that meeting. And that meeting happens quite often. And they discuss the actual business of the church. There are no women present even in their leadership roles. The next meeting is the priesthood executive committee that has the same five guys, but also includes the young men's president, the high priest group leader, the elders quorum president, and the ward mission leader, all men. And so they conduct ward business in that. And the highest calling I ever achieved in the church is I was a ward clerk and a clerk. You don't get to Be a high priest, you're just kind of there to take notes. And I was a lousy note taker. So God was not inspired on that at all. But what I notice is, and we're going to go through the other meetings, they just conduct whatever business they have in whatever meeting is in front of them. So the women are just boxed out of different meetings. So then we have the welfare meeting, where we have the priesthood Executive Committee, the one that is, and the Relief Society president. Now, what's funny and ironic about this is the Relief Society president is ostensibly responsible for the welfare of the Church. Her job, among other things, is to fill out those humiliating, degrading, depersonalizing forms. So if you live in, if you live in the mission field, you might not have ever seen this. If you live in the Mormon corridor and you're having financial troubles, you can go to the church. They have these great big greeneries and these stores and all this stuff and what they do. Again, my information might be dated on this, maybe some of this has changed. But the Relief Society present has to sit down with you and you have to ask her for everything that you need. So if you want five rolls of toilet paper, you have to fill it out on that form. She actually fills out the form. So she might say, no, you really just need three. And so you have to go through this degrading process, which, of course, this is a fragment of when, you know, in the 50s and 60s, when women typically did all the purchasing for the home. So the woman is relegated to having this degrading, humiliating talk with anybody who needs anything. Church talks about how generous they are, but they are always going to extract a price. They are always going to make you feel less for it. They're always going to make you feel other. And they take that food and they put a great big deseret label on it and make sure that everybody comes to your house, knows that you're on welfare. You got the food stamps, you got the church stuff. So. But the Relief Society president, who's in charge of this and in charge of bringing meals to the sick and doing all that stuff, the, the boys, they get to come in and do the blessing. They get to. They get to evoke God's voice. But it's the women who are actually supposed to do the. That actually matters, like feed people and provide daycare and, and help people in real sort of ways. The boys get to do the pretend stuff. But this Relief Society president has to take that form to the bishop and he has to sign off on everyone. So, so we can go through this double female humiliation where the first woman has to go and sit for the other woman and say, you know, I really, I need some, I need some food, I need some rice, whatever. Oh, you don't need that much. And then the Relief Society president, who has already scolded and screened it, has to go to the bishop and he can just say, nah, I'm not going to sign that. And he's not required to meet with them. He's not required to do anything. It's just another you humiliation to women. Right.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [01:41:07] Reminds me of the book I read at your house this weekend, John, which was an Enemy Half Done, this all about Ezra TAF Benson. And I think just a lot of the ways that the church is helping in their version of, of welfare is this, this horrified repulsion from anything, socialism or communism, and making it as difficult as possible for people to get the welfare that they need. Because if we make it at all easy, then we have a bunch of loafers around and next thing, Communists.
John Larsen [01:41:40] Yeah, it's this irony. The church has a really robust, expensive welfare program and welfare farms and all this, this kind of stuff to feed its membership. Great. But from a socio political perspective, Mormons skew very heavily conservative and conservatives tend to look down on social programs. They think it gets in the way of people taking care of responsibility. So the church has this, this dual problem that it has all this welfare and all this money that it needs to give to people who are in need because that's what Jesus said to do. But they actually hate the people who do it. So all they can do is shame them and humiliate them and shame them and humiliate them. So it's worse than just that form. When you go to this center and you might be a single mother with six kids, a widow, or whatever your circumstances, they make them work at the, at these, when they're, when they're gathering their stuff, they make them sweep or stock shelves. We're not going to, we're going to make you ask everything and then we're going to make you actually earn your keep. Even though that money was given through fast offerings and other things by the membership of the church, it wasn't generated by the church itself. The church just sits on their high throne and says we get to decide. So the church sucks all the money out of the ward, literally. Takes it, takes it from me, takes it from you, take it from your neighbors, and then it sits on this big pile of money and then it says grovel Shame yourself. Come before us and tell us what you need, and we'll tell you why you're less for that. We'll tell you while you're. Why you're not doing what you're supposed to, while we hand out little bits and sit on hundreds of billions of dollars. Do you guys out there see why I get so pissed off? The church is fucking sick.
Chanel Achenbach [01:43:36] Yep. John, when. When you're talking about this. I felt all of this because I was a single mom that needed help. And the thing about it is, 30% of my body, I have permanent nerve damage. So I'm limited on what I can do. But I fight a lot for what I can do. And the things I can't do, there's nothing I can do about it. But when you start talking about groveling and just, like, working your ass off, and then you need help from people that your single ass give money to, and then having to sit down with those forms and look at your friend while she's doing fine, or you think she's doing fine, and to. To fill it out, and when you were saying, you know, five things of toilet paper, whatever, my kids. And. And then to feel guilty that you can't go work in the bishop storehouse like everybody else that need help because you have something wrong with you and feeling guilty because they're like, oh, wow, our sister so and so shows up and she can do it. And let me just say this. The bishop in the ward was amazing. We're not talking about him. But when you're sitting down with this woman and you're having to. And. And it changed because I've used it more than once. It changed to where you just said what you needed and pretty much it was okay, but then, now, I don't know if you guys understand this. Not only you groveling to these people for things that you need for your family, now you have to explain what you're going to do with it. Well, how are you going to cook these beans? What is your recipe? What are you going to do with this rice?
John Larsen [01:45:30] What?
Chanel Achenbach [01:45:30] What are you going to do with this? And then you feel really stupid because you don't know. You just know you need it. Maybe this week you'll make spaghetti, and maybe this week you'll make tacos. You don't know, but you feel stupid. You're supposed to be in a loving place getting help, but now you feel stupid because you don't know what you're going to do. And you. You just know that your kids are hungry, period. And you know that you've done everything that you could and you hate every minute about being in the space because your dad taught you to work and take care of yourself, but your body won't let you. Nothing that you did, just a freak thing happened to your body. And now you are suffering and you need help and you feel stupid from the people that say they love you.
Samantha Shelley [01:46:17] And that's supposed to be like motivating for people as well, like making them feel stupid. It's absurd.
John Larsen [01:46:24] I, I don't know if it's supposed to be motivating. I think the church is built on. Patriarchies are always built on hierarchies that, that there's a, there's a pyramid that you're walking up that, that winnows down and, and there's always got to be a justification for why. Well, I mean, let's, let's, let's call, let's call a spade a spade. The church participates in prosperity gospel. It always has, it always will. And you go into any stake and the stake president and the stake presidency always comes from the most wealthy neighborhoods in the stake. Those who are the poorest, they don't get the more visible callings. And we have to justify that it's God's blessing by othering the poor. This isn't just a church thing. This happens all over the world. That we do not listen to, to what Jesus Christ said that what Jesus Christ said is we need to take care of the poor. But what we have told ourselves in America for so many years is that the poor get what they deserve because there's people who lift themselves up by their bootstraps. And if you just work harder, then you will have it. And the inverse of that is that people who, who, who suffer, that's their own action. And, and of course, even, even so much as to blame your lot in life on what happened to you before you were born, you know, before the, the 1978, you know, ban on, on. On those with African descent. Right. So, so the, the, the church needs that as their own narrative to justify all this, all this wealth. Yeah. The whole system is crappy and things are so precarious today that any one of us is one tumble down the stairs away from bankruptcy. Sure. And, and you know, I'll, I'll use a personal example. I had one of my children had a suicide scare at, at school and I had to take them to Primary Children's. Primary Children's Hospital. Held my child there for six hours. They did nothing. They didn't do Any service. And they just held them until they could move that child to a facility that, where the child could get the help that she needed. They charged me $13,000 for those six hours and insurance disallowed it. I had to pay it out of pocket. I'm not special. It could happen to anybody. I didn't have $13,000 laying around. I had to pay it off for years. It can happen to anybody. The system right now is difficult. And my, my lovely, intelligent, accomplished wife was. Had church welfare for, for several years through no fault of her own, through nothing that she did. But, but women are, are set into positions where they're dependent upon men. And those men fail and they, and the women themselves take the bite of that failure. And you know, it's not only just the humiliation of filling out the forms. It's the humiliation of the way, the way we treat these people. By these people, I mean poor people, which increasingly is all of us. The way they treat these people is humiliating. I laughed at, at. And, and you know, because my, my wife has such good nature. But like at the holidays, the, the, you know, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, the church would decide what she should have for dinner. The church would decide what she should give her kids for, for, for Christmas by just dropping it on her porch. The, the. No one stops to think that if you drop a big turkey and all this stuff on, on presents that you bought for all, all the kids, that the parents have to explain to the children where that came from and why they got this from Santa Claus when they asked for this. That, that. It's, it's the, it's the problem and the hubris and the patriarchy of charity. We, we use these things to control people, to decide what they can eat for Thanksgiving, what they can eat for Christmas, what they're going to get. And there's going to be people who say, you are criticizing people who are trying to do a good thing. And I am. And I want everybody to wake up more and realize that our actions have impact. And if you drop a turkey on somebody's porch, it creates a whole narrative and a disruption in their life. I'm not saying we shouldn't give people things, but why don't you just ask them? Why don't you just go to them and say, what do you need? Or you know what? Just give them money. That's what makes the world go around. Just take some of that hundred billion fucking dollars and just cut him a check. Quit playing these games with beans and rice. Jesus, John.
Chanel Achenbach [01:51:17] When you, when you Start seeing that stuff. They don't get it. I'm telling you what. I want everybody to understand something. No, people that are getting help are not ungrateful. But it's, it's, it's, it's embarrassing. Okay? So I had a job at usaa. I made good money. I made great money. I did good. I worked my ass off. Well, then I got sick, okay? Left my husband, so then my children. And this is, I don't think people understand. My ward consisted of people who lived in five hundred thousand dollar homes or higher. And then the rest of us lived in manufactured home, trailer parks, whatever you want to call it. Okay, so a couple of things that happen when you're talking about male oriented. I remember I had the 13 year old at my house for a little party. I was teaching them. And I remember this kid, he was, he was so worried for me and he's like, why do you live here? And I was like, what? He's like, I'm gonna go call my dad. I'm gonna have my dad, I'm gonna have my dad go buy you a house. You can't live here. I'm gonna go have my dad take you out of here. You. You can't live here. That was so beneath him. He wasn't trying to hurt me. He just was concerned that he's like, well, I don't understand. Wait is why, why are we having a party here? Why do you live here? And I'm like, well, because this is what I can afford. And he meant me no harm. He didn't. He was so worried. He was like holding my hand. He's like, I need to call mom. His dad, he's, I'm going to call my dad. I'm calling my dad. And then when you think about Christmas and stuff and, and people dropping stuff on your porch and running. We caught one family like watching us. And that's when I thought, at first I was just so grateful. And that's when I was like, I cannot do this to my kids. I cannot. We are the, the people that we opened the door, there was a black, two black bags on our porch. And we can see some people, you know, watching us. And.
John Larsen [01:54:11] I think the true spirit. Thank you so much for. I mean, because we put so much shame around these things that we don't share our own stories. We're all getting kicked in the nuts over and over again by society and by, and by the, by the church and by things that are happening. I just read that in the last quarter, Americans put $805 billion on their credit cards. Like, like things are rough out there right now. And what we need is kindness, compassion and dignity. Like, like people who are below you church. I'm looking at you right now. The church where we're talking about how women are put below people in poverty, people without education, people who aren't white, people who aren't male. Can we flip the script and say just two things, just kindness and dignity. Can we give people dignity without trying to scrape every last bit off them? Because it is. And I'm glad you were able to share that because people don't see how their generous actions can leave people feeling othered and second class and non participatory and not part of the community. These actions can destroy if you're not careful with them. And so rather than have the church just extract all this wealth from everybody and those guys on in their ivory tower decide how to do it, let's push it back down and let neighbors help take care of neighbors again. I know I am a crazy liberal radical, whatever. But I got that away from reading the New Testament. I'm sorry. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay. This was all a big jag I was going off of the way they govern the church. We didn't even finish because we were getting to the point that there was a welfare meeting where it's the pec. All of those men that I just talked about, so the young men's presidency, high group leader, elders quorum president, ward mission leader, and all the bishopric, including the clerks and the Relief Society president who get to decide and discuss welfare. So we leave that woman, that Relief Society president, to be the, to do all the heavy listing. And then all of these men, all of these men sit around and judge and tell her what she can and can't do, the backup. And, and they're. They're all like bootlickers trying to impress the bishop anyway. So they're all just gonna nod. They're not gonna like say now hold on there, Bishop Smith, I think you're out of line here. That's. That's a rarity. I mean it happens. And, and this probably is a disclaimer. We should say we're telling stories about people who, who have been hurt. There's a lot of great bishops out there. There's a lot of great relief sided presidents. There's people who want to share the power, but they're an exception. They're not the rule. And I'm glad they're there and I'm glad those people are making the church better than it would be. But the church is still the perpetrator of all of these systems. Okay, so after the welfare meeting, we get to ward council, and at that point we include the Sunday school president, the activities committee, and the primary. And I think that's the point that the young women's leader. I didn't put it in my notes. I think that's the point. She comes in. I want to point out that you have young men and young women, and the young men's leaders have more privilege and more status and more decision power in the hierarchy than the young women's leaders. Even though those two organizations on the surface are seen to be in parallel, they're not. The brethren exercise more power. And. And one of those comes out in a kind of a simple thing that happens at the church. Women are not allowed to be in a Mormon church by themselves. You can have 400 women in that church with machine guns and knives. It doesn't matter. You have to have one priesthood holder there. So. So there's just another example that women are not trusted in even the least amount, that, that you'll have some yahoo priesthood holder who has to be there. The same thing goes for girls camp. The girls camp has to have male priesthood chaperones. Boys camp does not have to have female chaperones because women are less than men. Men have to be there. Men have to be in charge.
Chanel Achenbach [01:58:45] Is that true? Really? They don't have. Wait, they have to have a male there, huh?
John Larsen [01:58:52] Yeah.
Chanel Achenbach [01:58:53] I could kick most of their ass.
John Larsen [01:58:58] Well, Chanel, your reactions to all this are absolutely appropriate. Thank you. Okay, let's. Let's take it home. We're talking about chaperones. Let's go more with the chaperones. All leadership meetings that women are allowed to attend can also be attended by men. All we male positions report to men. We already talked about the beginning. Even when women are in charge, they still have women sign off. Or even when women are in charge, something like the welfare forms, they still have to be a man that signs off on them. Chaperones are required. A male is required to be present. And I like this. Truthwatcher13 pointed out that the implication that women do not have the power of discernment, I think that feeds into all of this over and over again, is a really brilliant point. I want to pause for a minute on it. The church believes that we are entitled to revelation. And when we set people apart, it's to give them a special connection to God. I guess because the bishop has this Discernment. But if you look through every one of these things, the unifying factor is the belief that women cannot discern what the Spirit says. Because if you believe that, you wouldn't need all these controls. The belief of the church is that only men can discern the will of God.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:00:22] Yeah, that's major. That ties into everything that the Holy Ghost that you get really is not the muscle of God's work until you have the priesthood anyway. And the spirit of discernment.
Chanel Achenbach [02:00:34] How dangerous. How, how extremely dangerous.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:00:38] Yeah.
Chanel Achenbach [02:00:40] Oaks made a joke and he said, you know, if you want to prevent yourself from getting into bad marriages and being cheated on or whatever and being abused, then don't marry him in the first place. And the funny thing is, when I talked to my church leaders when I was deciding if I wanted to marry this man, I said, this doesn't feel right. This is not right. And I was talking to them for guidance. Obviously, my family members couldn't talk to my dad or my brothers or whatever. And so I'm talking to my priesthood leaders because as I was talking to some girlfriends, they're like, you need to go talk to the bishop. You need to go talk to. Okay, I'm okay, sure. So I go and I'm like, hey, I am not feeling it, you know, and that's when I got the questions and the interrogation about, you know, are you reading your scriptures? Are you paying your tithing? Yeah, I'm doing all that. I'm teaching this class, you know, I taught, of all things, celestial marriage. But anyway, so I, I, I was like, it's, it's not feeling right and always getting challenged. Well, your church leaders know more than you. You know, you need to listen to us. We, we know because the, the thing that he said to me that I'll never forget that I'm just like, he says, well, you're black, he's black, you're Mormon, he's Mormon. What's the problem? And I was like, how much time you got? And I was like, it's just not going to work. Well, why not? Well, okay, well, this, this sister, I'm telling you, we know what's right for you. You have to trust that we're saying this. You have to understand two worthy people can make it. He wasn't worthy, Duh. So it, anyway, I'm not going to get into about him. But my point is, I trusted myself. So what happens to a woman when the whole time she's like, this doesn't feel right? And you've got these men Saying, you're wrong, you're wrong. I don't trust your discernment. You question everything about you. You don't trust that you can listen to yourself anymore and that before you make any move, you need to check with the man. Not cool now.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:03:04] It reminds me of when I was Mormon and I watched a video in preparation for this episode. I created videos and I watched videos and I watched things that I normally wouldn't watch. And there was a video of a woman saying, like, is the Mormon Church sexist? I don't think so. And I, you know, I'm a very competitive woman. And this girl was super competitive. She outbanged me. This video was from 10 years ago. She had better bangs than me. So on that, she would have won. But I think there's this idea that women, it's almost like a safety net to survive, they need to give themselves something to hold on to. It's like, well, I would never put up with that kind of treatment if my bishop said that to me. I know when I'm being discriminated against. And when you are in a structure A, when it's the water that you're swimming in. And then, baby, when your salvation is dependent on just going along and just nodding quietly, thinking that the only. Only path to salvation is through this step, this step, this step. And these are the men who. Their discernment is always going to outweigh whatever spiritual things I get. And yes, I got the gift of the Holy Ghost when I was 8 years old. But maybe it's a little bit fuzzy. Maybe I, like, shouldn't have watched that Ariadn movie or, you know, maybe the lines are too fuzzy between God, but this spiritual leader, this guy, this bishop, the stake president, whatever they're deciding for the course of my life is what I should take on. Because they have a higher level of spiritual. Spiritual discernment. Higher. A higher stewardship over me than I do over myself and just how dangerous that is. And those are the things that I needed to understand three years ago of, like, what are the real world ramifications like, that Chanel is talking about? Of, like, real people's decisions, the course of their life is being made. Not because this person is just like, you know, they're just a friendly person giving some advice. They're giving very authoritative advice.
Chanel Achenbach [02:04:55] Well, I think more than that, that I don't think people realize you have to understand something. So you've got these men. Not only are they authoritative, they are claiming, okay, they are claiming that they are meeting and Talking with God as apostles and prophets. So how dare you question them?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:05:17] Sure.
Chanel Achenbach [02:05:17] And you believe that? You believe that they're meeting with them in the holy of Holies and why? So you have to listen to them. So if you question them and say, well, are you really talking to God? I don't know if you're talking to God. So I don't know if I listen to you, can you prove that I'm not talking to God? I can't. So I'm going to err on the fact that they're with their full chest claiming that they're talking to God. I'm going to listen to them. I'm not talking to him, I'm not up in the holy of holies talking to him. So I'm gonna believe what this man just said to me, even though I don't like it.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:05:56] Yeah, that's a great point. Question authority is where I hope this leads people to
John Larsen [02:06:03] great points. Yeah. And then of course, the most overt example of this. Sorry, I was just eating a little bit. The most overt example of this is money. Women are not allowed to handle money in the church. We send 14 year old boys out to go collect fast offerings. That money goes to the financial clerk who is always a man, even though there's no, no priesthood associated with that. There's no priesthood justification for having your financial clerk a man. But, but, but it is. The men prepare the budget. Women don't have any role in preparing the budget of the church if as part of welfare payments, you know, they distribute food, but they can also distribute money, but women aren't allowed to do that. You know, if you just go through and you realize, oh my God, women are not allowed to touch money in the church. And it's just, you know, what, what is the currency of the church? Well, it's currency. And you know, you say, okay, women aren't believed to have the power of discernment. And you know, we, we haven't gone in this episode into a lot of historical things, but I think there's one worthy dimension up until 2019. In the temple, the woman pledged to obey her husband as he obeyed God. But that line wasn't inserted until 1990. Before 1990, the woman had only, based from a temple perspective, one God and one God only. And that was her husband. Her husband was completely the mediator. So, so the assumption that women cannot receive revelation and cannot do anything except that the man has the role for, for all of that. And, and I've seen, I've been there when there's a 12 year old boy of a single mother and they're like, oh, you're the priesthood in the house now. You're in charge now. And when you, when you say women can't have money and women can't have discernment, what, what, what is there left? They're, they're, they're baby makers.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:08:05] I think that's a Benson quote that says the three best ways for women to live up to their potential is homemaking, child rearing, maybe a different word there, and companionship. And that is the most narrow for a prophet of God. Just the box that they put women in is like dishes, diaper changing and listening to you after you had a hard day at the office. It's just, it's so insulting to think that the God who created us, if you do believe in the version of the Mormon God, that these would be his prophets and the boxes that he has half of all of his children be put into, is just obnoxious. It's just nonsensical.
John Larsen [02:08:49] Well, who was it Ruby in the chat says then? What is the point of prayer in the church if God doesn't answer a woman's prayers? Exactly. I, what's the point of prayer in the church for anybody? If you think about it, the whole church is based on this authority. Authority. And really the authority is to speak in God's name. What?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:09:08] Chanel, do you have something you want to say?
Chanel Achenbach [02:09:09] Yeah, I just had a question. It was either Hinckley or Benson, I believe, that said that a woman shouldn't have more education than her husband. And that is, that's so troublesome for, for the fact that, I mean, I told you I was trying to tell them no, I, I think I need to go to school. So you want to help me with a food order. But there's LDS business, college, there's byu. There's all these different things that I'm saying I would like to finish. So not kind of guide me on anything that has to do with education to be able to further that, to make better money or, you know, learn a better skill, so forth. Nope. You need to find husband. You need to find husband. Yet the funny thing about that is in finding this husband, they, they felt good about pairing me with, with the black man. And just because of that and that didn't work, and now you're telling, you know, your, your white father, sons, whoever, not to marry, you know, not to intermix. So now you're cutting off the thing you want me to do so that's a, that's an issue. But don't go to school because don't get educated. Don't do this. It's like I am so confused on what you want me to do. It's like it tips a step forward. Nope, don't do that. Step here. No, don't, don't do that. It's like all this control and I am just trying to do what God wants me to do. That's all I'm trying to do. But every time I'm trying to do something and righteously in love. None of those things were bad. It wasn't anything against any kind of laws. It was just, I mean these males, it's like, it's like they're doing it on purpose, like they're back there. So watch me to tell her to do this and then I do that. No, watch this. I'm gonna tell her do this. That's what it felt like because it didn't matter what I did. And all I wanted to do was the right thing for my kids, by my kids, for myself. But nope, is without a man. He's just not gonna happen. Sister.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:11:25] Yeah, that's scary. A lot of women have. Makes me upset to think about.
Male Rites of Passage and Visibility in the Church
John Larsen [02:11:32] Okay, let's, let's bring it home. Let's talk about visibility as our second, our penultimate point. Men have several areas of advancement and rites of passage that are very visible and very open. We get to see a man grow, we get to see a man go from being 12 and then giving more responsibility. You know, 12, he's passing the sacrament. At 14, he's preparing the sacrament, going to your home and asking for money. At 16, he is sitting literally on the stand and looking down on the audience and, and you get to hear his voice Sunday after Sunday after Sunday as he blesses the, the, the Eucharist, what do they call it? The Sacrament. And, and then, and then, you know, he, he keeps getting these, these positions and everything is very, very visible. A heartbreaking example was shared by New Journey unknown on Reddit. And she, she said she had two, two twins, a girl and a boy, both 12. And so they both turned 12 and the bishop called the 12 year old boy up on the stand and recognized him for receiving the priesthood and didn't mention the, didn't mention the girl at all. And mother had to go home and try to answer the, the, this poor little girl's question like why, why is my twin brother now worthy of mention, worthy of recognition? But I'm not. And I mean that's, that's the question that, that 12 year old's question. I want everybody who's these defenders of the church or sitting there perpetuating the system. Why, why do we do this? Do we think that this has given the church anything? Do we think that we're better off because of how we marginalize and humiliate and second class women all the time? Has anybody gained anything from that as a society? No. Then the last example we'll give the second anointing is still real. So if you happen to be the usually, usually they're children of general authorities, mission presidents, 70s high high people like that. And I, I've met them. John's met lots of them. They're, they're. This is in the shadows but it's real and you can find plenty of people who talk about this and have done it. So when you go in for the second anointing, the, the officiator will anoint the husband and give instruction that they are to go home in the privacy of their own home and she is to anoint and wash his feet. And then it's hard for me to even say then and she's supposed to dry his feet with her hair. Right? What as the last you in a long series of yous right that, that not only this, the, the, the second anointing which is having your calling and calling an election made sure the, the ultimate right of restoration of the priesthood. The one that really gets you there and get you into heaven. The one where you get to find out about Lord Xenu and the Thetans and how they're. I might be missing up mixing up my cults now but you, you get the idea that her job is to prostrate herself before her husband and, and literally wash him. It's, it's just, it's, it's beyond words.
Chanel Achenbach [02:15:35] That still happens.
John Larsen [02:15:37] Still happens.
Chanel Achenbach [02:15:38] There's no way there's that oh my
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:15:43] goodness just reminds me of every time you level up to like the big time in a cult, like the final boss, the final thing to defeat is something that needs to be as secretive as possible or else people would say that is culty. It's insane.
John Larsen [02:15:59] And I, I believe that John has had an anointed folks on the podcast before who've talked about that experience. So because people won't believe me Maven if possible if we can link to
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:16:15] one of those episodes and what's Hans? I want to make sure I say Han's wife's name if we're talking. I knew I was Brigitte Madsen and Tom Phillips. Tom Phillips is one of the most popular Mormon stories episodes of all time, by the way.
John Larsen [02:16:31] Tom Phillips was the, the anointed one. And yes, of course, Hans and Brigitte were members of the 70. I've had the opportunity to talk to both of them and they're real people and they're really out there. So the point of this episode is that there are overt, explicit, specific, concrete examples of discrimination against women in the church today. We haven't even begun to talk about the historical because the church is doing everything it can. Well, it's not doing everything it can. The church is trying to fix this slowly. There have been rumors on the street that general authorities will tell people behind the scenes that they're afraid to reform too quickly for fear they might lose all the right wing nut balls in the church. I don't. Maybe it's true, I don't know. But it's still a destructive and unhealthy organization. We could do the next 10 years of Mormon stories just talking about historical misogyny and discrimination against women and women suffering and all that kind of stuff. But I really want to focus today on what is happening right now, 2022 in the church. All right, I want, I want you all to take the last words. I've spoken my piece. Let's hear it.
Final Thoughts and Closing Reflections
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:18:04] Final thoughts Ladies, do you have your final thoughts prepared or shall I go first? Thank you so much John, for preparing this and thanks to the people, the Redditors who submitted and helped create this list. And I hope what people come to understand through viewing this list and just the stories and, and hopefully connecting with some of the real life ramifications and, and reasons that this list of many things has harmed so many women in the church, including Chanel, that while it is difficult to take yourself out of the fish out of water and be able to look at things from a different perspective. I think it is always helpful to shoe on the other foot. How would you feel about this? Like we were saying with the article Dear Mormon man, what would you do? By Amy McVee Alabas, which I recommend everyone go look up and just creating a space where we understand and we empathize with people who haven't necessarily gone through what we have in our life. I was a very Conservative Mormon Girl 3 years ago on Fire for Jesus and I did not know what these dumb biatchas were talking about. I realize now that my thoughts were not my own in a way because I was so conditioned that this was. I was already presuming that this was the order of God, that this was my gender role. And it's. It's not just the Mormon Church. It's a. It's a societal American ideal of what these gender roles should look like and what they should be. And then just all the more authority that I had given to the church to speak and act in the name of God for all of these priesthood holders. And so from the very beginning, a lot of things that I didn't know I should have. I could have had a better. A better way to make decisions for my life. And it's only since stepping out of that and being able to understand these things from a systemic level and share and learn from other people and being open to that, that I radically changed all of the opinions almost, that I had. I still think I have nuance, and I still have a. I don't want to sound like I don't have a huge heart for men, which I do in the church. And men have their own issues and their own problems in the church and expectations that they are forced into as well, but I really. I'm really grateful for so many. So many different types of Mormon feminists and people who came before me to open up the lanes of communication, to validate and get the word out that these things are not. They're not normal just because we live in America and this is how it kind of is. Sometimes it's not okay. I'm a human being, God damn it. Sam, how you feel? Do you have any parting words for us?
Samantha Shelley [02:21:06] I think the running theme of this conversation for me is that the church. The church continues to perpetuate a system where men control access to the divine, even though women are often the boots with the fur on the ground, actually imbuing sacredness into things. Like, I think the home is such a good example of this. Where it. In Mormonism, it is almost always Mormon women who create the home environment, who, you know, decide on the decor, who do the seasonal touches to make the space feel special as you. As the seasons transition, they do all this stuff, right? And yet these two random dudes from the ward come over and they dedicate the home. And that's what makes it sacred. No, what makes our space sacred is, like, the love you pour into it, the connection you build with the space and how you, like, learn to live with it and, you know, or nothing that actually matters or makes a space sacred can be, you know, achieved through just like, some bros coming over and saying, like, now the house is blessed. And I feel like that's a running theme like, you know, naming babies, doing the baby blessings is like women are responsible for the child rearing, but it's the men that are in the spotlight. And then funerals, it's women who carry the burden of emotional labor in patriarchal cultures and kind of often generally depending. But you know, it's women who people will go to with their grief. It's like, realistically, your bishop's not going to be as helpful as like some sister in the Relief Society when it comes to holding space for your grief and like really listening deeply. And yeah, it's the men who preside over the funerals and all the stuff around that. And also it's often women who are, bring, who are doing the organizational work to bring people together to grieve for a funeral. And then Heavenly Mother, you know, we're taught that women, a woman's primary purpose is to be a mother and a caregiver. And yet we, we only all get to be parented by Heavenly Father while we're, while we're on earth, which seems a bit backward because it's like, isn't that Heavenly Mother's main thing? So it's like time and time again women are doing the work and you know, trying to bring this, bring sacredness into things and, and then the men just get to be in the spotlight at these really significant, you know, cultural milestones. And it just, it all feels kind of telling, you know, that they feel the need to have that kind of prominence even with things where they're kind of taking a back seat most of the time that they need to. You know, I saw a tick tock recently that talked about how a lot of men in patriarchal cultures, for example, don't necessarily love raising children. They just like the aesthetic of parenthood and of raising a family. And I thought that was really interesting. And anyway, these are rambly thoughts, but great conversation.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:24:04] Learned a lot to me. Gatekeepers to the divine.
Samantha Shelley [02:24:08] Yeah, it's like that a lot. Yeah. Because why, Because I think they're threatened by what's unknowable and uncontainable and like sexuality.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:24:16] Sure.
Samantha Shelley [02:24:16] And dare I say women as a whole, like they, to, to most men those things are quite unknowable and uncontainable. So they, you know, they try to contain them.
John Larsen [02:24:26] Yeah.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:24:26] And again, that's not necessarily just Mormonism. There's, there's religion does operate in a wide scale around the world to control women's sexuality for the advancement of men. So like, while we can recognize that there's different structures within Mormonism that are far more gatekeepy than whatever need be. That's well said, Samantha Shelley Chanel, do you have any closing thoughts?
Chanel Achenbach [02:24:53] Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts. One of the things that comes to mind that I think about for a group of men that take care of everything, for them to be so scared and so weirded out by sex is weird. It. It's. It's insane. I think about this. So if you are struggling with anything, you're supposed to talk to your priesthood leader, right? So I had a. I tried to have. I tried to have a conversation with my. A bishop once. I was divorced. I was d. In a dating pool and more confident, more secure in who I was without being told who to be. And I respected him and loved him as a friend. And I thought we were friends. So I asked him, I said, hey, we'll just call him Bishop Green. I'm like, bishop Green, I need to talk to you. And he's like, sure, what's going on? I said, listen, this is when I was trying to figure out if I was Mormon or not or what am I doing. And I said, hey, listen, there is a guy that I like. He likes me. I'm not having any more babies. He's not having any more babies. We both are medically checked out. Why? What is wrong with us being intimate? And he lost it. He was like, what do you mean? I said, what? I said, what is wrong with us being intimate? The whole purpose is not to have babies out of wetlock. Not. That's fixed. We're both fixed. Like dogs. It's not happening. And we both are medically checked out. What's. And I seriously had this conversation, and he wasn't having it. I said, wait a minute. So you can have a church court with me, but you can't have this kind of conversation with me? I'm trying to behave. I'm trying to not get. And you don't want to have this conversation. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. And he was not comfortable with that. How in the hell you're not comfortable with that conversation? So that was one thing. So as I think about this and I think about my children, I still have children that are still members on the books. So what if they rejoin? I am concerned about some of the things that they might have to go through. The church has 15 old dudes that don't know what the hell is going on. You need a mix of progressive dudes where you have some men that think no, my wife can work. In fact, my wife is good at working. My wife can own a gun and she's good with it. My wife can beat me in poker talking to my husband, I kill him. But anyway, so the, the point is, women are not just these docile, little dainty, wide eyed women that just like, yes, sir, what would you like me to do? It's okay for them to own their sexuality and to be able to help participate in that situation. And I think that needs to be addressed on a, a huge scale. You've got these beautiful young ladies on their first night not knowing what's going on. It's not a great experience. And it just keeps getting worse and worse because the church wants to be involved in the bedroom, but then they don't want to be involved with the bedroom. That's very confusing. And then I, I just think it's got to change. You can't have 15 old dudes knowing what the hell's going on in life. As you need a mixture of veteran, you need newer progressive guys to understand the church as a whole, because the church as a whole isn't old. There are guys who doesn't understand a black woman, who doesn't understand a black man, who doesn't understand anybody besides the people that look like them and they want to look like them and act like them. It's got to be more than what it is. It, it has to change. If it doesn't change, more people are going to keep leaving and it's not going to be sustainable.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:28:56] 100%. John Larsen, throwing it back to you. If you're there, I'm here.
John Larsen [02:29:08] I got nothing more to say. You guys keep going. Everyone's heard enough of the white guys. Keep going.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:29:14] Last thing I'll say I did. I want to spend one more second talking about something because it is so painful how we don't question authority enough and everything that any one of us could ever say. You can question it. You can say what is, what are they trying to say here? What is the best, best faith interpretation of what they're saying and what's the worst faith interpretation of it. But when you're in a religious system like Mormonism and you're told that the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, it's all given to you that this is authoritative from God. Go ahead and read this. These are the words of God, the Book of Mormon and unadulterated words of God, even more, what the prophets are saying. These are the words of God. And so many people are put in a place of authority to say your maker, here's what he has to say about you. And if you haven't noticed, even read the Bible, it's a great way to become an atheist. It's a great way to realize that so much of the authority that you thought that you were placing in everybody around you telling you this is where you get this wisdom from is things that are very horrible and subjective. And you know basically that if you are raped in the Old Testament that you, that's basically a property crime against your dad because of that. There's so many, so many things and so many old unrelevant ways of expressing spirituality are just given to us as children from the time that we're born into this church. If it's me, unless you're a convert like other people are, that this is the authority that you pay attention to and with absolutely no right. It is really insane when you, when you think about the way that we just kind of birth children to this church and tell them this person says what you do with your life over any other intuition and instincts. And I just, I go back to like the different ideas between Western and Eastern religion and philosophy and, and what I said at the beginning of this program where somebody didn't even know that there are other goddesses out there in the world, it's because they have such a narrow minded view of things. And this idea that in Western religions that it's a top down structure. And there's other ways that you can start with your own, you can meditate and you can start with your own intuitions and see what rhythms you fall in naturally with and with that. And then you add sexuality into that and you add your own pursuits and your own interests and your career choices. Going from a bottom up structure that is the most dangerous thing to patriarchal societies and to the Mormon Church is people taking a, an inward reflective approach and shunning the authoritative top down approach that we are all just expected to with. Authority should be, should be earned, not just, should not just give it. And that's, that's the mantle that these men just automatically have for the time you're in the church. And it takes a long time to break out of that. A long, long time. So that's my last piece is authority is whack unless it's really actually earned and then still keep an eye on them.
Chanel Achenbach [02:32:09] But if you question. So like somebody like me that is a convert and consistently questioning not to question their authority, but questioning because I don't understand and it doesn't Feel right being threatened with. Well, if you keep asking, you know, first of all, you have no faith. And I'm like, yeah, but James 1:5 says I can ask. Excuse me. And so then you're threatened with having Temple recommends taken away or that you're apostate or being excommunicated for asking questions. So you stop questioning. You shut up, and you do as you're told, you know, and, and I, and I think that's where it comes from, too, is fear that you're a. You have no faith and that you are a bad person for questioning. Because now you've brought the spirit of contention, which is of the devil. So now you're a devil for questioning. Like all these horrible labels when you're innocently just trying to figure out what's going on so that you can function. If something doesn't feel right, shouldn't you ask about that? If my husband were to say something and it doesn't feel right, I'm like, hey, dude, that. I don't. I don't like that. That doesn't feel right. And then he wants to, well, I'm going to divorce you then, or I'm going to beat you if you don't. How's that going to work? How. How is that relationship going to work? It's not going to work. And so that's the same there. But, but when you're so scared of, of questioning because you're labeled, certain things, you just stop, even though you're being tortured in your mind and your heart that this is not right. But they know more than me. They're talking to God himself, so you don't know. And then you've got a patriarchal blessing that's telling you it's mapped out your life for you and what you should and shouldn't be doing. So then now you've got that. And I mean, it just gets crazy. It's just. It just gets insane. So I'm not missing anything.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:34:01] Absolutely. John Larsen wrote in the chat that, Chanel, you are a powerhouse, and I absolutely agree. And I loved every contribution that you've made today and think you really drove all these points home. And just a great additional perspective to hopefully the viewers appreciate as well. So leave Chanel some love down in the comments. Do you have anything that you. John, before I wrap up, is there anything else that you have to add? Just silence. Okay. Do you have anything, Chanel, that you want to plug or advertise? You have a tik tok, right?
Chanel Achenbach [02:34:42] Yeah, I have a tik tok it's bet noir for I just one last thing I want to say is that when, when it came to putting stuff on our porch to help me and my children, I know people meant no harm. It's just the only, the thing that I can tell members. If you truly want to help people, it has to be because they need to help, not because you want to pat yourself on the back or be a savior or feel good about whatever. People are struggling and they want to and, and if you're doing something, hopefully it's out of love and concern for them and their well being. And then I think John said, listen to them, ask them how you can help. I know that's how I am now. When, when someone needs help, I don't give them what I think they need. I say, okay, you've asked for help. What do you need help with? And if I can oblige, then I will. And if I cannot, then there's something else. And I, I think it's okay to ask people how can you help them instead of just giving them stuff they can't use. I mean, to me, to help somebody, I would, I have 13 Christmas trees. So to me, I would give them a Christmas tree and some ornaments because that makes me happy, but that doesn't mean that that would make them happy or something that they need. So.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:35:59] Mm, perfectly said. And again, I think really going back to the roots, I was re listening to Matt Harris's episodes with Ezra Taft Benson. I read Ezra Tuff Benson last book this last week. And it's really important, I think, for people to understand. Like I was saying my, my conservative thoughts against, against anything were, you know, supporting a program where you could actually go get the money that you needed to take care of yourself is something that I was against because my thoughts were kind of not my own in a lot of ways. Like, it's been a systemic push, like a real scare against one type of charity over the other. When you have somebody right here in a chair telling us that it's not as helpful as like another form of charity could be, and you're not ungrateful,
Chanel Achenbach [02:36:48] it's just, it's not an. That you're being ungrateful. And that's what I hope people are not getting. We were very grateful. But there's some steps that can. That are missed.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:00] Yeah, right. Is there anything else that you wanted to add or anything else that you want to promote?
Chanel Achenbach [02:37:07] No, just listen.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:10] Promote listening. That's all we want to promote right now. Will you spell your tick tock channel.
Chanel Achenbach [02:37:14] Yes, it's B E T T E N O I R the number four.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:20] Awesome. And Samantha, thanks for joining us today. Do you have any other final thoughts? Anything that you want to plug or promote?
Samantha Shelley [02:37:29] Is Elf on the shelf everywhere?
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:32] Zelf on the shelf. What about your coaching?
Samantha Shelley [02:37:35] And Samantha Shelley coaching? If you're looking for a faith or relationship transitions coach.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:40] Yep, she does good work. So I think, John Larsen, if you have anything else you want to say, I'm going to officially wrap up the episode. He dipped out officially.
Samantha Shelley [02:37:51] Sometimes silence is the most powerful conclusion.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:37:54] Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, John Larsen, for putting together some of the research on this episode today. If you guys like these John Larsen episodes and you want to see them keep coming, they are special once a month addition to the Mormon Stories lineup and I get to join them. And if you want to donate to Keep Them Coming, they go into a special fund, a Mormon Expressions fund. You can go to the Mormon Stories website and look under Mormon Expressions and there will be a tab down where you can donate specifically to that fund to keep these specific episodes coming. And that's what John Larsen gets paid out of to keep these episodes. So if you enjoy them and me and any panelists that we invite on. So if you enjoy these episodes and that's the best way to keep them funded, please keep Supporting Mormon Stories podcast. After you're done watching Chanel's TikTok channel. When you've watched a whole the catalog there, when you've done with Zelf on the shelf and you've, you know, signed on to their Patreon and send them $5 a month and then send $10 a month, $10 a month. And then when you join the new ones, Hoe Patreon and you've already subscribed to the Newman's Ho channel, you've already watched the videos I put out, definitely make sure to make it a priority to watch Mormon Stories and donate to them whenever possible.
Samantha Shelley [02:39:09] Absolute last resort, bottom of the barrel. Go everywhere else first.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:39:14] Once you've really just got a full swath of the post Mormon progressive Mormon world, please do keep supporting Mormon Stories. I worked here for a year and had a great time. John's just completely silent and unmik'd over there. So I get to say whatever I want without being interrupted whatsoever.
John Larsen [02:39:30] John, I still have Mike.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:39:31] No, I mean John Larsen. I'm sorry, John. John Dehlin is not miked over there.
John Larsen [02:39:34] Oh, except his cough. He's either got Covid or he needs to stop smoking.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:39:38] Oh, John, you're smoking the crack pipe again.
Samantha Shelley [02:39:42] In John's defense, I think it has been both of us. It's. So you've maybe been hearing a mix of coughs and thinking it was. Oh, John.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:39:48] Yeah, I know.
John Larsen [02:39:50] I. I feel the patriarchal baritone of
Samantha Shelley [02:39:53] John, the male fragility of it all.
John Larsen [02:39:55] It's like, I know he did a job great, a great job of stepping off the mic, but he just couldn't knock off. He just had to. He just had to make his presence known.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:40:03] Just like a area clearing. I'm still here. Yeah. But thank you, John. Even though you can't say anything to the microphone. Thanks for letting us do this episode and running the boards over there.
Samantha Shelley [02:40:14] He looks so sheepish right now, you
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:40:15] guys, when he knows he cannot talk. But, yes, thank you very much, John. Thanks for helping us host this and getting everything set up. And that is today's episode. And just listen. And we promote listening here at Mormon Stories Podcast. So take everybody and thank you so much. See your donations and your views soon, we hope. Bye.
John Larsen [02:40:42] All right, good night.
Kara Burrell (Mormon Stories / Nuanceo) [02:40:43] Good night.
Samantha Shelley [02:40:43] That was ladies Night.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Despite reports of progress, the Church today remains a highly discriminator organization. In this episode the panel will identify and discuss specific, concrete examples of how the Church explicitly discriminates today.
Co-host: Sam Shelly
Special Guest: Channel Achenbach
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Show Notes:
Mormon Stories
- 671-672: Amy McPhie Allebest, Author of “Dear Mormon Man, Tell Me What You Would Do”
- 430-434: Hans Mattsson — Former LDS Area Authority Seventy (Sweden)
- 984-985: Truth Seeking with Hans and Birgitta Mattsson
- 535-539: Tom Phillips, the Second Anointing, and Mormon Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland
- 1350: Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right (Matt Harris) – Part 1
- 1351: Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right (Matt Harris) – Part 2
Other
- Temple Name Oracle
- The Black Menaces | Dating a black woman
LDS Sources
- Elder Ballard, “Put on a little lipstick”
- Elder Ballard, “We need women’s voices, but don’t talk too much”
- Ezra Taft Benson | In Christ’s Steps
- “The divine work of women involves companionship, homemaking, and motherhood.”
- Dallin H. Oaks | Striving Together Toward Perfection
- “The best way to avoid divorce from an unfaithful, abusive or unsupportive spouse is to avoid marriage to such a person. If you wish to marry well, inquire well.”
One Response
John Larson asks in minute 32 about BYU buildings named after women. BYU-Idaho’s music and theater building is named after Eliza Snow. It’s the only building I know of named after a woman, and I’ve argued with other BYUI students who believed it was jointly named after Eliza and Lorenzo.