Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Gina Colvin [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and I am very excited for today's interview, as I almost always am. But today we are going to be pleased to spend some time with the very fabulous Gina Colvin. Gina. I've known her for a little while, and I think she's probably most well known in the blogger knuckle, at least historically, for her blog. She has a blog called Kiwi Mormon Mormon Reflections. What is it? Mormon Reflections from the Antipodes.

Gina Colvin's New Zealand and Māori Roots

Gina Colvin [00:01:34] Antipodes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Is that. Is that the. The island chain that makes up New Zealand. And what is that?

Gina Colvin [00:01:40] Well, anti. Is opposite to. Empodes is the place of your feet. Oh, so it's opposite to the north. Ah, opposite to England. The other side of the world.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And that's. That's how kind of Australia. New Zealand is referred to.

Gina Colvin [00:01:56] Yes, yes, mostly Australia, but love it.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Okay, but you're. You're not in Australia, right?

Gina Colvin [00:02:00] Oh, heck no.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Yeah. You're in New Zealand. Yeah. Yeah. So Gina is. Gina's fascinating for a lot of reasons. She. She's from New Zealand. She. She has a PhD in journalism. You. You're a professor, right?

Gina Colvin [00:02:15] Well, we call them. You call it professor in the United States, but I'm a lecturer. So we kind of have the British system, which is. Same thing. Professor is actually a promotion, an academic promotion the field. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] Okay, so you're a lecturer at a university. Which university?

Gina Colvin [00:02:32] University of Canterbury.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Canterbury. Okay. And. And lots of other cool things. She. She is, I don't know, biracial, Multiracial in the sense that she comes from a Maori heritage. Is that right?

Gina Colvin [00:02:47] Yes, My father's Maori and my mother is white or pkeh.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Right. So we're gonna. We're gonna talk about that. So we could talk about feminism. We could talk about race. We could talk about intellectualism. You know, you're almost like the two or two of the Three great threats to Mormonism all rolled into one.

Gina Colvin [00:03:07] I know, I can't help it.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] And also, Gina, in addition to her really insightful blogging and writing on Kiwi Mormon, she also has taken over the A Thoughtful Faith podcast, which, if any of you tuned into my interview with Micah Nicolaison a couple weeks ago, you know, Micah was the founder of A Thoughtful Faith, and it had a few owners between then and now, but Gina's kind of taken it over, and she has interviewed some fabulous guests over the past several weeks and months. So we're going to talk about Gina's early years, her time in the church. Gina is faithful in the church. I'm getting a lot of grief because several of the past interviews have been people who've left the church or who are angry. I'll just say part of that is because, you know, once you get stamped with the apostate label, sometimes there's people who aren't willing to come on your podcast anymore. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna blame that, at least in part for the dearth of faithful interviewees. But also I've just had some people I've wanted to just make sure I interviewed. So, anyway, Gina is active in the church, she's faithful in it, and she's committed, raising her children in the church, and she's leading A Thoughtful Faith, which is a podcast explicitly dedicated to helping people navigate thought and faith. But I wouldn't say that that means that her. Her writings or her presence is in any way timid or feeble. I think she's a very, very strong voice for. I don't know if. Would you call it progressive ideologies? What would you say, Gina?

Gina Colvin [00:04:55] Yeah, we call it liberal, progressive, reform, reconstructionist, revolutionary, all of it. Anything for change, John. Anything for change, for positive change, right? Not just let us be, all of us differently, better.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Yeah. So we're going to talk about that. Talk about her activism, about Middle Way Mormonism. We're going to talk about race in the church, gender in the church, and all those sorts of things. But to begin as we always begin, Gina, let's talk about your sort of heritage or your early years with the church. How far back does your membership go in your family?

Gina Colvin [00:05:33] Well, my grandparents, my grandfather, who is Mori, he joined the church, I think, in the 1920s or 30s as a young man. He was married, had about 12 children, and then his wife passed away, and then he had an arranged marriage with another Mormon woman, Te Henny Taiapa, and they had another, I think, another nine or 10 children. She raised them as well. So that was.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Wait, so you're saying like 21 children?

Gina Colvin [00:06:00] Yeah. Between them, they lived in a very poor rural area on the east coast of the North Island. And in those days, of course, the church was largely mori. So there was. That was the kind of predominant kind of population that gravitated towards Mormonism. It's not until it urbanized kind of, you know, into the sort of 1950s, that many PKEH or white folks started joining the church because anyone, anyone who was white went off together in Zion. This is in the 19th century. And of course, because of the racial policies of the U.S. mori weren't allowed to immigrate to Utah. So they were left behind to establish the church.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] And what's the word you used for. For how he's. Or howly or white folk. And why would there have been PKEH people, you know, white folks in New Zealand back in the late 1800s, early 1900s?

Gina Colvin [00:07:00] Pkeh, or the English mostly, and we have French, came to New Zealand from about the 18th century, like into the 18th century. But England, New Zealand was a colony of England and it was established in 1840 as a colony of England through a treaty with Mori. So it's very much has that. It's part of the British Commonwealth along with Australia and Canada and, you know, other African states.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] And when did New Zealand get its independence?

Gina Colvin [00:07:31] 1890 was Dominion Day. It's still part of the Commonwealth, but it formed its own constitution in the 1850s or 60s and we could elect a prime minister at that point. Up until that time, it came under a governor general who was appointed by the queen. So we still have those ties.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] And so the first Mormon missionaries show up in New Zealand in the early 1900s then, is that true?

Gina Colvin [00:08:00] Late 1900s?

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yeah, they were very late 1800s.

Gina Colvin [00:08:04] Yeah, sorry, 1800s.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Okay, okay. And. But your grandfather wasn't converted until early 1900s, right? 1920s.

Gina Colvin [00:08:15] Okay, yeah, 1920, 30s, I think.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Now there are certain. There's certain. I don't know if you guys are considered Pacific island, you know, but. But you think about like Samoan and Samoa and Tonga, there are, you know, these islands where we got the missionaries there soon enough to where today there's a very large percentage of. Of LDS members in the country. Is. Was that ever true amongst the Maori?

Gina Colvin [00:08:42] It's certainly a significant religion. Amongst Mori, it's not the most populous religion. We have some critic religious traditions like Ratana and Ringatu, which are taking the Christian Christianity, but also blending it with animism and Another prophetic tradition. So that's pretty significant. Mori Mormon has really kind of stabilized around a few families, so. And Anglicanism probably is the biggest religion, one religion for MORI as a population, but it's still significant. Latter Day Saints faith tradition is still significant for Mori.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Like what do you think, 5%, 10%?

Gina Colvin [00:09:27] I think it's about 12 or 13.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Okay, cool. Okay, so you're. Did you ever know your grandfather?

Gina Colvin [00:09:34] He passed away in the 1970s. I met him once, so. So because he was on the. I'm from the south island and he was in the north island and he wasn't too happy because. Because my mother and father weren't married. My mother was a teen, 18 year old when she ended up with my father who was 10 years older and he was already married. So I am a bastard. I am ex nuptial John.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Okay, wait a minute. So. So your grandfather raises like 20 plus kids, you know, in the church? Yes, he. With his, with his second wife.

Gina Colvin [00:10:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] And then. So your, Was it your mother or father that came through that line?

Gina Colvin [00:10:13] That's my father.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] So your father is one of the sons of your grandfather?

Gina Colvin [00:10:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] And so was he active in the church?

Gina Colvin [00:10:23] You know, I don't really know. I think at various times he has been active, but at that time he was not, I don't think on and off. I think from my sisters, my half sisters. It does appear that he was attending church, but obviously when he was living with my mother, it was somewhat, I don't know, but he introduced her to the missionaries. Okay, so she joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Okay, so he, he, he and your mother had you. Not, not in, not, you know, under, under wedlock.

Gina Colvin [00:10:54] No.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] But then she later joined the church.

Gina Colvin [00:10:57] She joined the church when she was pregnant with me. So they broke up. And I don't know where he went. Oh, that's right. He found another woman. He's a bit of a, you know, sort of, you know, sewing his wild oat sort of chap.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Sure.

Gina Colvin [00:11:10] And she joined the church when she was pregnant with me.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Okay. And so was he part of your life growing up or not?

Gina Colvin [00:11:17] Not so much on and off. I saw him. He had three families effectively, so he paid maintenance for me. I saw him occasionally at church functions, but I didn't have an ongoing relationship with him. And I'm, I'm reasonably thankful for that because he was a, A complex character. He came back to church after he broke up with his third wife and became a branch president.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] Wow.

Gina Colvin [00:11:46] Yeah. And that was reasonably problematic as well. So he stayed faithful until he passed away.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Okay, so he's. He's passed away.

Gina Colvin [00:11:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Okay, going back really quick. So for some reason, the name John Carmack comes up for me, when I think about Australia or New Zealand. Is there a connection there? Is there some story I should know about that?

Gina Colvin [00:12:06] Not that I know of.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Okay, maybe that's.

Gina Colvin [00:12:09] Were you thinking of Matthew Cowley?

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Maybe? Like, are there any kind of sort of like, epic, heroic. I know that Lou Midgley thinks talks a lot about the Maori, but I'm just wondering if there's any sort of important or stereotypical sort of early Mormon moments amongst the Maori that are, you know, kind of formative to the folklore or the myth or the legendary or to your history as it relates to the church and its early years with the early church leaders.

Gina Colvin [00:12:40] Well, I think there's a lot of stories. If you're talking about missionaries, probably the most eponymous of them is Matthew Cowley. And his. His legend is larger than life. And there are various stories floating around about how he raised the dead and how he learned the language with huge facility in terms of the local traditions. It's very difficult, you know, like living at the periphery of the church. The weight, the narrative weight always exists from the eye, the gaze of the missionaries. So the kind of record that we get and that gets valorized are their letters and their missionary journals. But one thing that I do know, which I think is powerful, and Selwyn Cartney's just written a book about this, about significant Mormon ancestors in New Zealand. One thing that was really important was the prophetic tradition, and we call that Matakite, which is the ability to see behind the face. Another kind of metaphorical way of talking about being able to see beyond. And women and men, Mormon Mori, woman and men. All, you know, many of them or significant people had this prophetic tradition. So that's been reasonably significant. And that was something that was very much embraced. So when Mormon missionaries came to New Zealand, they learned the. They learned the language, they lived with the communities, they embraced the spiritual practices or accepted the spiritual practices. And so Mormonism and Mori ness sort of grew in this really interesting syncretic tradition. It's changed somewhat, although since the Mori renaissance of the 1970s, it's sort of resurfaced so that you'll see, for instance, at a funeral, a lot of those Mori funeral traditions get incorporated with the. The Mormon ones as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] You said the 1970s was the Maori renaissance. Okay. So kind of there was a colonization that happened, and. And. And maybe some culture got lost, but then there There was some attempts to kind of revitalize the culture in the seventies.

Gina Colvin [00:14:56] Very much so. Very much so. And it was interesting, the church's position on that. I'm aware of a general authority coming out to New Zealand with what they called the Little Red Handbook, which was during that period of time, instructions local leaders to avert the crisis of radicalization of our Mori members. So they weren't allowed to speak Mori in the. In church meetings. They couldn't do any of the kind of ritual practices, and they needed to be, you know, putting some restrictions around the kind of activities, activist activities that Mori got involved with.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Okay, when we talk about the international church, I'm going to want to talk. I'm going to want to revisit this topic. So I'm writing some notes down, but. So this is going to sound really ignorant. So Maori has its own language?

Gina Colvin [00:15:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] Is it your first language or your second language?

Gina Colvin [00:15:54] It's my second language.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] And are you fluent in Maori?

Gina Colvin [00:15:58] Do you know, I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up speaking it, so I couldn't ever be as fluent as somebody for whom it's a first language. But I'm okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] I do.

Gina Colvin [00:16:06] I do. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Could you bear your testimony in Mary?

Gina Colvin [00:16:09] I think yeah, I could.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Okay. Do you mind doing it real quick just to give us a sense for the language?

Gina Colvin [00:16:13] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Wait. Yeah, After a couple sentences, tell us what you said.

Gina Colvin [00:16:24] Oh, okay. I just introduced myself because you don't. This is a Mihi tradition, so you need to kind of acknowledge everybody and then introduce your name.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Beautiful.

Gina Colvin [00:16:32] And then I would say where I'm from, Nongatipurao, Menga, Puhi, Oku, iwi. So. So my tribes are Ngati, Pirau and Ngapuhi in the north island and on the east coast of the South Island. Now, I don't know actually how to share my testimony in Mori te whakaponu ahau kai te ortoni te. I know that God lives. I have faith. I don't know what's resurrection in Mori. I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yeah, That's a feel for the language.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Beautiful. Okay, so you've never probably borne your testimony in Maori.

Gina Colvin [00:17:18] No, I haven't. Thank you for reminding me. Thank you for reminding me that I never had.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] No, no, no. This is, you know, I'm just learning about you, that's all.

Gina Colvin [00:17:26] You know, actually we can listen to the temple ceremony in Mori and we had since the 1990s, which is kind of cool. So I could probably recite the temple ceremony to you in Mori, that's.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] That's even more impressive, actually.

Gina Colvin [00:17:39] I know.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay. All right. So. Okay, so your grandfather had 20 plus children. Was he pretty faithful? Is he like a legend amongst the Maori of being, like, one of the early pioneers of the church?

Gina Colvin [00:17:55] Is he? Well, I mean, he sort of produced a dynasty. My family name on that side of the family is Rufu, and my grandmother is Taiapa, and both the Rufio and the Taiypa families are quite well known in New Zealand.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] So kind of the Royal Mormon families, a little bit.

Gina Colvin [00:18:19] We're not quite royal. You'd have to be a hypolite to be a royal. There's all sorts of kind of funny hierarchies that go on, and we're reminded of that because occasionally when President Monson was cognizant, he would come on area trainings or, you know, be Skyped into state conference, and he would talk about all of the families that he knew that were Mori.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] He had a good memory, right?

Gina Colvin [00:18:48] He did, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Okay, so you're saying there's a specific family that's considered like, Royal Mormons in Maori?

Gina Colvin [00:18:56] I think just dynastic as opposed to.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] Yeah, dynastic, yeah. And what's the. What's the top family?

Gina Colvin [00:19:05] I don't want to say.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Oh, you don't want to say. Does that put you on the spot? Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:19:08] No, no, no, no. You say, who, What. What family might consider themselves to be the top?

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Okay. What family might consider themselves to be. No, you don't have to.

Gina Colvin [00:19:18] No, please don't make me.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:19:20] Because they might be listening and go, yeah, okay, now.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Now they're all going to think it's them. Right? Okay, that's right. No, that's good. Okay, so your father sort of was in and out of the church and struggled. Your mother was a convert to the church when you were in her tummy. And so tell us about your. Did your mother remarry and tell us about how she raised you in the church.

Growing Up Biracial in Christchurch

Gina Colvin [00:19:46] Well, look, I'm living in a city that I grew up in, which I feel really thankful for, which is called Christchurch.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Christchurch. Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:19:54] And I say that when I went to BYU when I was 17, I said I was from Christchurch, and people would say, yes, so am I, it's my city. But they didn't understand my accent. So, yes, I'm Christchurch. And Christchurch is. The church in Christchurch has always been relatively small and somewhat idiosyncratic and a little out on the limb. It's tried to make its mark by the purchase of prime real estate for its chapels. So, you know, the, the kind of the fancy road, the Draper, I suppose, of Christchurch is Findleton and we have

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Draper that's desecrating your beloved country. No, I love Draper. I'm just kidding. My mom lives in Draper. Draper.

Gina Colvin [00:20:38] Right, right. So. So the, so we've, we've got a very, very, very beautiful property on there and have since the 1950s. But having said that, the church is reasonably, has always been small, but growing up, it was a wonderful community. It was just wonderful. I was absolutely adored and loved and my mother was as well. I just, I only have happy and very, very sweet memories of growing up in the church in Christchurch and a ragtag group of people, mostly working class people, part member families, people who've made tremendous sacrifice to your bunch of crazies. You. It was all very, you know, it's just a great, rich, rich community to grow up in.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] So are you currently in the word you grew up in or in like a branch that sprung out from that word?

Gina Colvin [00:21:27] I'm meeting in the same meeting house that I was blessed in as a baby.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] So that explains a lot right there. Because it's a lot harder to discipline somebody, frankly, who you grew up with than it is somebody that's just a transplant who kind of nobody knows or cares about.

Gina Colvin [00:21:44] Yeah, for sure, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] So the social capital you, you have is probably pretty extensive.

Gina Colvin [00:21:49] Oh, extremely so. And then my husband's family, I mean, you know, between us, you know, I think there are four generations that meet in the same ward. So it's reasonably, reasonably intertwined.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] Yeah. Okay. That's a mess to try and deal with that. Okay, so. So are you comfortable sharing your approximate age?

Gina Colvin [00:22:11] I'm 47.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Okay, so you're two years older than me. And so I know what the typical, you know, 80s upbringing was in the United States. It was roadshows and dance festivals and youth conferences and steak dances and things like that, temple trips. How much of that did you have versus not. Or what other experiences were sort of part of your youth primary? Just, you know what, we don't want to make assumptions about what your experience was.

Gina Colvin [00:22:45] Well, we had the traditional road shows and the green and gold balls and the missionaries were very much a part of that. You know, part of the missionary work, I think was transplanting an American culture and traditions. So yeah, it was a very close knit community around and, you know, celebrated Mormon ness with these, these transplanted cultural traditions. But I, but I have to say that my mother was desperate to get married And I just did a little plug here. She was kind of semi engaged to a missionary while she. Because remember, she was a young woman, you know, she was raising me in her early 20s in the church, and she had this missionary that she quite fancied, a chap called Jim Coffey. So if you're listening, Jim Coffey, you are remembered. And I think they had great plans for her to go to Utah and it didn't materialize. And I think she was rather depressed about that. So when I was nine, she married somebody else. She married a non member, a Catholic who was a really problematic human being. Still remains. So. And okay, wait, wait.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] Have you connected with this Coffee character? Do you, like, know where he is or.

Gina Colvin [00:23:55] I know he was from Utah, but.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] But you haven't, like ever found him, so.

Gina Colvin [00:24:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] So he may be listening to the podcast and reach out.

Gina Colvin [00:24:04] He may do. That'd be great.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Okay. Yes, but that was. That broke your mom's heart.

Gina Colvin [00:24:08] It did break her heart. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] And she waited for. She waited for him how long?

Gina Colvin [00:24:12] Oh, look, I just remember. I remember her waiting for him. I think I remember him, actually. I was two or three and I remember. I think there was a photograph of he and I and my mother, and she'd sort of haul it out. So it's all rather heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Oh, man.

Gina Colvin [00:24:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] And so she married someone else.

Gina Colvin [00:24:32] She married a Catholic man.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And how did that go?

Gina Colvin [00:24:34] Terrible, John, terrible.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] I'm sorry.

Gina Colvin [00:24:37] Yeah, well, I mean, you know, aside from having an interesting family background, he was an alcoholic as well. So he prevented us from going to church.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Oh, no.

Gina Colvin [00:24:49] So from nine years old, he refused to allow us to go to church. We could only go to the Catholic church.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Wow. So we not even Anglican?

Gina Colvin [00:24:56] Oh, no, no, he was a Catholic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] Okay. Did that marriage last or.

Gina Colvin [00:25:03] No, it didn't. I think it lasted about 10 or 11 years.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] Oh, wow. So wait a minute, so you. So then you weren't raised as an adolescent in the church?

Gina Colvin [00:25:13] Well, I. It's interesting that you say that because I think I had a very, very turbulent upbringing. So I was. I went. Things. Things were so turbulent at home that they became very turbulent at school as well. So I went on to high school and I was expelled from two schools.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Oh, wow.

Gina Colvin [00:25:36] Yeah, Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] A real troublemaker. Were you. Were you brainy? Were you, as Joanna would say, were you. Were you thinky?

Gina Colvin [00:25:43] I think I was too thinky, actually.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] Yeah.

Gina Colvin [00:25:46] And I also had a mouth. You know, I was mouthy and thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] And so it was like you were too Good for school or like too bored or what? Just too. Too much trouble at home. And so you were acting out.

Gina Colvin [00:26:00] Yeah, I think there's also racism. We lived in a very, very white area and in a rural area. So we kind of lived in kind of on the outskirts of the city.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] So describe your skin for us so that we would even know what you know. You're biracial. Right. So, you know, dark brown. Like how would you describe your complexion or your look?

Gina Colvin [00:26:24] Well, it's seasonal. Seasonal, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Depends on the sun.

Gina Colvin [00:26:28] It does. Caramel beige, I default to. That's my kind of winter thing. And then I go chocolatey brown in the summer.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] Okay, so it just depends on the sun.

Gina Colvin [00:26:39] It does, yeah. And I will say, and people who are biracial will know this, we get fairer at. The older we get. Okay, so I was a little brown child when I was little and then kind of gradually got sort of fairer and fairer.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Okay, and so talk about the racism that was going on and how that affected you.

Gina Colvin [00:26:57] Oh, I think it was just systemic. Yeah. Like, I mean, you've got to imagine a kind of a pissy young woman in a very traditional, very. I wouldn't say elite school, but in the state school system, the public school system, it was a good school. Who wanted to push boundaries. There's a theme. Who wanted to push boundaries and who was, who was troubled. So I had trouble with authority. And so the first time, the first time I was excommunicated from school was when I. We had. We go by the British system. So I was in the third form, which. I'm not sure what grade that is. Third form, first year of high school. I was 13.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:27:47] Whatever that is. And ninth grade, probably. Yeah. And. And when we had to. And when we were in that year, we had to do home economics and the girls had to do sewing and cooking and the boys got to do metal work and woodwork. And I objected that to that terribly because having been raised by a single woman who ran her own business, she taught me in those early nine years how to be a feminist.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] What?

Gina Colvin [00:28:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] Would she have used that word?

Gina Colvin [00:28:16] I think she was. She was pretty, she was bright, she went back to school and. Yeah, my mum was bright.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] So your mom was a self identified feminist in the late 70s, early 80s?

Gina Colvin [00:28:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Like during the ERA movement, basically.

Gina Colvin [00:28:31] Well, your era, that didn't make a flicker here.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Okay, so she wouldn't have even known about that.

Gina Colvin [00:28:35] No, probably not.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] All right.

Gina Colvin [00:28:37] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and I objected greatly to this. And then we had this awful home, home economics teacher who had the. The most huge breasts ever. And it was quite intimidating for a 13 year old because she'd be a down on you and it would just be all sort of breast and, you know, body and, well, I don't know. Terrible having all those breasts around. And then this one, she would humiliate the girls. She would tell us terrible we are and how much. You know, I would have to bring ingredients to cook and I would always bring two eggs so I could cook myself some eggs on toast. So, you know, I was already out of favor. And then this one particular day, she was chastising everybody, calling us silly little girls. And then I just sort of shouted over, I got in a rage and I shouted over the top of the girls, I said, why don't you just shut up?

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Cool.

Gina Colvin [00:29:28] And everything went quiet, you know, as everybody's food rested in their mouths. And she came at me with a pizza pan.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Whoa.

Gina Colvin [00:29:35] I know, I know. And I'm thinking the only thing I have to defend myself is a tea towel. So it was this kind of odd tussle as I slung the tea towel around her neck and she was trying to beat me with a piece of pan. And then that was the last I saw the interior of that school.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] So you're expelled? I was expelled in ninth grade.

Gina Colvin [00:29:54] Yeah. I was sent to alternative education, which was an odd school.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] That's for the bad kids.

Gina Colvin [00:29:59] Yeah, yeah. I was mostly filled. It was kind of like free choice. It was free schooling for high schoolers and. And that was mostly filled with stoned punks and, you know, teachers who just sort of would show up occasionally. So it was a bit disappointing really. I was sort of hoping for something a bit better.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] Like what?

Gina Colvin [00:30:21] You know, what I really wanted to do was to go to a Catholic girls school. I would have been happy at a girls school, I think, having been raised a feminist. But anyway, that didn't happen. And then the story gets a bit thicker and. Sorry. I eventually I began running away from home and I was eventually apprehended by the police and put in, I think probably you would call it juvie.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] For what? Were you breaking laws or just.

A Turbulent Youth and Finding the Church

Gina Colvin [00:30:50] No, I wasn't. No, I was just running away from home. So they put me in a secure facility in a girl's home and I spent three months there.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Oh, and a lot of this just has to be that you lost your father or he wasn't around and then you're your replacement father was an alcoholic and I'm sure your mom Wasn't super happy. I mean, is that part of what's going on, do you think?

Gina Colvin [00:31:12] Yeah, I think so. I think it was a convergence of a lot of things and I just really, really didn't want to be at home. He was abusive as well. He was physically abusive. Fortunately not sexually abusive, but he was physically abusive. So it was, it was. It was. Yeah, it was tough.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] And during this time, like, was like the church or, you know, Jesus, were they like, did you cling to your religion as like, what kept you alive or kept you sane or what comforted you at night when you're sleeping in your jail cell or whatever it was?

Gina Colvin [00:31:47] Yeah, it was like a cell, John. Yeah, yeah. Do you know, I think. I think while I was at the girls home, I had some really, you know, you just. It's just a terrible feeling. The policeman who admitted me into that facility told me I was the lowest of the low and the bottom of the bottom and that, you know, to have that and to be in that place where all your freedoms are curtailed is just a dreadful experience, particularly for a young person. Yeah, so I had. I remember that first night and just weeping just inconsolably that I'd found myself in this place. And I felt that it was largely unfair, of course, you know, I'm 14. Of course you think, you know, the world is unfair and having a remarkably comforting and warm encounter with something divine. So, you know, that was. That was really important for me. But I don't think that that set me on to making my way back to church at that point. But there were points along the way. Okay, it took me back to church.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] So you did have some type of transcendent spiritual experience that comforted you during that really hard time?

Gina Colvin [00:33:01] I did, I did. And then, you know, I woke up in the morning and was looking for cigarettes, you know, you know, you know how these things sort of come to you and you're just trying to work it out. You've got sort of almost. It's like you've got God on your shoulder and he's just there. If you just care to turn your head. That was. It was kind of like that. There's a lot to work out as a young person.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] So would you have just described it as like a. Like just an overwhelming feeling that came over you? How would you. A voice like. How would you have described that experience?

Gina Colvin [00:33:29] I describe it as angels.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] Really?

Gina Colvin [00:33:33] Visible angels? No, no, just this sense of being enveloped and cloaked in warmth and love and goodness and being told you're good Enough.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] Wow.

Gina Colvin [00:33:44] And loved. You just loved. Yeah. So that was. That was powerful.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Were they Mormon angels?

Gina Colvin [00:33:50] No, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Were they Anglican? Anglican or Catholic angels?

Gina Colvin [00:33:55] I just think they were just angels.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Okay, okay.

Gina Colvin [00:33:58] That's the feeling, you know, that's. I mean, that's the best way I can describe it.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] And is that. Is that a singular experience for you? Like the. Probably the most profound spiritual experience of your life? Or have there been.

Gina Colvin [00:34:09] No, no, there've been others.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Wow. Okay. I'm excited. All right. So where'd you go from there?

Gina Colvin [00:34:17] Well, this is really interesting. And I think I continued to run away even after I was released from this facility. And I was hanging around with some street kids in town, and the street kids were particularly the Mori street kids were associated with what they call the Mongrel mob. So I was sort of on the outskirts. The proof of periphery of this culture, never doing anything really bad. We did steal a car one day, but that was somebody else's idea. So we didn't do anything really bad. I just was there. That's why I felt comfortable. I was a Rastafarian. You know, we'd listen to Bob Marley and I'd watch everyone get stoned.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] You weren't into drugs?

Gina Colvin [00:34:57] Not really. You know, I had the few. A few totes every now and again. You know, maybe I got drunk once. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't, you know, I wasn't too. Too much of a reprobate. I just, you know, maybe that was my big, you know, my mother was a. Was teetotal and it just was never really a huge appeal.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Did you. Did you follow any of the Rastafarian kind of religious teachings at all, or was that not part of it?

Gina Colvin [00:35:23] Didn't really know what they were. But listening to Bob Marley and, you know, getting stoned was kind of cool.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] Yeah, that's good enough.

Gina Colvin [00:35:30] And we used to read, you know, wear the clothes and. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] All right, so you found this group and then where'd it go from there?

Gina Colvin [00:35:38] Well, then I got picked up by. I was on the run again, and then I got picked up by the police. They put me in a jail cell in Christchurch Central Police Station. And I was just sort of waiting there. And then the district president came by and this is the first I'd seen any Mormons, because Mormons were not allowed in our home. And he came by and he said, we'd like to take you home. I was like, okay, whatever. And they took me home and they sat me down and Had. I mean, they had a big family. I mean, one of the. One of their sons, their eldest son was on a mission at the time, and now he's an area authority. And they had a big family, but they had cleared out a room especially for me. They had about seven boys. They'd had no daughters. And they sat me down and they said, we have always loved you, and we want you to be part of our family. And. And, you know, won't you consider it?

John Dehlin [00:36:34] What about your mom?

Gina Colvin [00:36:35] I couldn't go home. It was just too fraught at that point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Wow, that is so beautifully Mormon. I mean, that isn't it. That is how I think about the Mormonism of my youth, is just people doing extraordinarily compassionate and loving things to help others, you know?

Gina Colvin [00:36:55] Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] So you. So you went to live. You moved in with this family in like, six or seven boys?

Gina Colvin [00:37:04] I didn't. I didn't move in with them, but that experience, them rescuing me from that place was very important. But they were on the other side of town to the school that I would. Wanted to go to, or I think maybe I'd begun there. So I really wanted to continue at this other school. So they set me up with another Mormon family, and I stayed with them. And it was. But even at that point, I wasn't really active. I was just among the Mormons. And they were very kind. Very kind. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] That was almost like your Jean Valjean moment. Have you seen Les Miserables?

Gina Colvin [00:37:39] Yeah, when.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] When Jean Valjean meets the priest and he gives him the. The candlestick and the. And he says, find your way, kind of. He saves his soul a little bit through compassion.

Gina Colvin [00:37:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Is that how you think of it?

Gina Colvin [00:37:51] I think I had a series of extraordinarily compassionate experiences with people in the church, in my community, who had known me as a little girl. And they were concerned and they loved me. I had no doubt that they were absolutely concerned and full of love for me. So it was beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] Okay, so you move in with this other family.

Gina Colvin [00:38:13] Move in with this other family. And I had a boyfriend at the time and breaking all kinds of rules and. But he was a very nice young man and had settled me. So I was settled at school. I was. And then. And then I decided that I wanted to go home. Things. I was a little older. I think I was 16, 15 or 16. I was a little older, and I just wanted to feel like I belonged. So I went home. I thought, well, I'll just take it on the chin with my stepfather, whatever, and so when I got home, I think I may have missed being in a Mormon family. And I think one morning, I think I was 15, I woke up with absolute clarity. A voice said to me, it's time for you to go back to church. Just like that. It's time for you to go back to church. And so I did. So I said to my mother, I think I need to go back to church. And at this point, I think things. She had been going to church, my stepfather had relented, and, you know, within a couple of days, I had the young woman's president picking me up. I had the bishop come to visit me, and I was back in the fold and never been out.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Yeah, that's. I mean, that's where the church really shines, is when somebody's in a really tough spot, they can be there for people. And once that happens, how can you not feel a sense of love and loyalty to the institution that kind of really was there for you during your hardest moments?

Gina Colvin [00:39:44] Yeah, absolutely. And look, I had, you know, I had a number of choices sort of growing up. You know, between 0 and 9, I was attending Baptist church services, assembly of God, church services with my nanny. So my mother worked, and so I had a nanny, and she was Dutch, and so I was part of their family as well. So I had this very kind of mixed. I did the Catholic. You know, I was Catholic, but I was Mormon. But it's funny that I should, you know, should have that experience. And I knew with clarity that I needed to go back to the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] Okay, so you're. So you're. By 15, 16, you're active in the church. And. And how did it go from there?

Gina Colvin [00:40:23] Well, I mean, it went well.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Like dances, war dances, steak dances, the whole, you know, sort of thing.

Gina Colvin [00:40:31] Yes, yes. And dating boys, getting crushes.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] Crushes on stateside missionaries. Is that part of it?

Gina Colvin [00:40:40] You know, I never. I never did the missionary thing. Wasn't interested in missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] All right.

Gina Colvin [00:40:43] I think it's because my mother was so hooked on them. You know, it's like my mother did.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] I'm not going to Elder coffee. You're not gon. You're not interested.

Gina Colvin [00:40:52] Okay. But I know I had a boyfriend. He was the mission president's son, and he was the grandson of N. Eldon Tanner.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Nice.

Gina Colvin [00:41:01] Well, yeah, very, very conservative family. And we dated for a couple of years, and then he went on his mission. So it was lovely. I did personal progress, had, you know, wonderful time. Wonderful time as a young person.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] And so, like, this is almost like an Alma, the younger thing, where you just, you go from being a real troubled kid, what, to super righteous and exemplary.

Gina Colvin [00:41:24] Super righteous. I went and confessed all my sins. I walked out of there and I thought I've, you know, the visceral feeling of having been, you know, unbounded and just sort of spiritually liberated. It was lovely. Yeah. Very good, Very good people. And I've got to say something about our stake. One of the most important people in our recent history was very, very progressive morm and a chap called Ashley Roper. He was the district president and he sort of mentored some of the formative members in our stake with the same kind of inquiry, questioning liberality, progressiveness. So it was a lovely place to grow up in.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] And is Ashley still around?

Gina Colvin [00:42:08] No, he passed away.

John Dehlin [00:42:09] And did you know him personally?

Gina Colvin [00:42:11] Yes, I did, yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] Was he an influence on you personally?

Gina Colvin [00:42:15] Well, just, just. Yeah, he was. I mean, he was my. He was a district president, you know, family friend.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Do you have a sense that he, like, read Dialogue or Sunstone or any of that kind of stuff?

Gina Colvin [00:42:24] Yes, yes, he did. And I'll get to that point because at 16, I knew that, you know, as I was becoming active in the church again, my stepfather was sort of stepping up the kind of the persecution. And I had another experience that said to me, I need to go and live with this particular, a particular family in our wal. And this is a, you know, it was the stake president's family. And so I said to my mother, I said, I think I. I think I need to move out and I need to live with the McIntyre family. And she said, I just felt the spirit. I think that's what needs to happen as well. So she went to the family and she knocked on the door, basically said, I think Gina needs to come and live with you. And the mother, Marion, who would become my, you know, my adopted sort of slash foster mother, said, I feel the spirit too. That's the right thing.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Wow.

Gina Colvin [00:43:19] And so I just moved in. I became one of the family.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Wow. So that was kind of 16, 17.

Gina Colvin [00:43:26] Yeah, 16, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:43:28] And David, who was the state president at the time, was a Sunstone Dialogue, Eugene England. He was a historian, a professor of history, and those were the days when the stake president used to go to Utah for general conference. I think it was April. Conference, conference. He would go every year and come back with bags full of books. He was personal friends with Leonard Arrington and.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] Yeah, so that was David McIntyre.

Gina Colvin [00:43:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] So the dad of the family you moved into was stake president and a Huge intellectual.

Gina Colvin [00:44:01] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] And this would have been in the, I'm guessing 84ish kind of time frame.

Gina Colvin [00:44:06] Yes, around that time.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] Okay. All right. Wow. That's kind of rich.

Gina Colvin [00:44:11] It was, it was great. You know, and you know, they were sunstone dialogue and so. No. And they had Fawn Brody's book. They had Juanita Brooks, you know, and there was everything there. And we just read and we talked about, and it was just part of the fabric of our, you know, our conversations as a family.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] You're reading about that stuff? I read about as a 16, 17 year old.

Gina Colvin [00:44:28] Yep. I read, I read one need to not win it Brooks. Fawn Brody at 17. Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] How do you read that in Be Scarred?

Gina Colvin [00:44:39] You know, it was just like, oh, this is really interesting. And I remember after reading about his polygamy, I went to young woman's. I said, now how come we A, don't talk about Emma and B, we don't talk about the fact that Joseph was a polygamist and there was just sort of nothing there. My poor young woman's president, she was just the sweetest person. She said, I don't know, I just don't think we talk about it. And then that was that. But I could talk about that at home. Well, it's never an issue.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Yeah, but I mean, I guess I'm struggling just because I had. When I read that book, I was never the same like I. But maybe it's context. I mean, how do you explain, do you have an explanation for why that didn't make you start wondering why Joseph, you know, wasn't a charlatan and, and the church wasn't true?

Gina Colvin [00:45:25] Well, I just thought that he was oversexed. So I'm reading this as a 617 year old thinking boy, he got a bit carried away, didn't he? So I never put that. I never put the polygamy and him marrying lots of women as anything but just really dodgy behavior.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] But you hadn't been indoctrinated that the prophet was next to Jesus in righteousness and had come to expect that he would, he would never stoop to that kind of behavior.

Gina Colvin [00:45:54] Not really. Not that I recall. And here's the interesting thing about the cultural dividend that we were very, we grew up very, you know, we're proud New Zealanders and you know, American cultural imperialism was something that we as a culture, as a New Zealand thing that we rejected. So when we felt this kind of American stuff coming in, I mean, you know, this is kind of the correlation period as well, we felt this stuff coming in. There was always this institutional, from the, you know, a stake, wide sort of of antipathy for it. So there was always this, hey, things that come out of Utah and might even include the prophet aren't necessarily, you know, they're not Jesus. They're American men. Good men, though.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Yeah, that's a. I mean, that is fascinating. And honestly, it's. I can't even totally understand it.

Gina Colvin [00:46:47] Yeah, it's kind of cool. You know, we would get even. The bishop would say, and he's gone on to be a mission president, he would say, look, see this, These lesson manuals, just follow the spirit, do what you want. If it's not applicable, just, you know, teach something else. Teach from the scriptures. So there was always a sort of backhanded, like, yeah, not interested in being colonized here by, you know, the American Mormon machine. It's kind of cool.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] I love this. I wish I had been raised there. Okay, so. So what happened next?

Marriage, Faith, and Difficult Discoveries

Gina Colvin [00:47:20] Oh, I gotta go from one crazy thing to the next. So we. I was supposed to be waiting for my boyfriend who had gone to England on his mission, but he was Canadian, so it was just a really complex situation. And you've got to understand that I'm just 18 and dumb. We had promised ourselves to each other. We were madly, madly in love. He was the first love. And. And then I think towards the end of his mission. I am a cliche. I met this guy who was outside of the church at the time he joined church and I met him at university. He joined the church and we got married. So I think I was 19 and he was 21.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] And. Is that your current husband?

Gina Colvin [00:48:02] No, it's not.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] Whoa. So why in the world would you step away from, like, your true Mormon love after seeing your mom suffer from so much duress with her husbands?

Gina Colvin [00:48:18] I have no idea, John.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Was it just biology? Just, you know, just sexual attraction and emotion and all that?

Gina Colvin [00:48:26] No, because he wasn't even that great looking. I don't. I don't know. I think. I think because we have. I'd been conditioned to be anxious for marriage, that this. And, you know, you know, have the background that I grew up in. Maybe I was just vulnerable. I don't know why I did it. It was a mistake right from the very beginning. Terrible mistake. Shouldn't have happened.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Not even a member?

Gina Colvin [00:48:51] Well, no, he was a member at the time.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Well, you converted him, right?

Gina Colvin [00:48:54] Yeah, he joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] But that's a totally different deal than, like, I mean, the, the missionary you had. He Was. He was connected to what? You know, leaders in the church, right?

Gina Colvin [00:49:03] Yes, yes, yes, he was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Yeah. So, I mean, wow. So how did you break the news to your missionary?

Gina Colvin [00:49:10] Do you. You know, I just think I feel so bad, you know, I'm just dumb. I'm a dumb 18, 19 year old. And I wrote him a letter. I think he wasn' good at corresponding and I'm a good communicator, so that pissed me off. He blew it.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] He blew it then.

Gina Colvin [00:49:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wrote him a letter and I said, sorry, I'm getting married. He wrote me a letter back and said, please don't.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] How many months from the end of his mission was this, John?

Gina Colvin [00:49:37] I don't know. Okay, maybe five months.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Wow. So less. Almost less than a year.

Gina Colvin [00:49:43] Yeah. But, you know, having said that, and I have to say this, there was an elitism that I didn't like about his family. They're very, very nice people, but very elitist. And I don't think. I mean, look, I'm brown, you know, I have a past. I don't have any great connections. And I knew that. I knew that I was not the kind of stock that they would have liked to have this. So it was.

John Dehlin [00:50:09] I'm gonna. I'm gonna turn my psychology switch on for a second. So was it some self sabotage because of low self esteem and.

Gina Colvin [00:50:18] No, because I. I don't think I've ever suffered from low self esteem.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Okay, so it wasn't that you didn't feel worthy.

Gina Colvin [00:50:23] No, I just.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] But you're referencing your. What? Oh, you just thought they were. They were jerks. Yeah. Did you just say on Mormon stories?

Gina Colvin [00:50:31] I did. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Oh, my goodness. I'm gonna have to give it an explicit rating. I would have never thought Gina Colvin would. Would earn an explicit rating.

Gina Colvin [00:50:39] Hey, it's not a swear word here.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Oh, it's not.

Gina Colvin [00:50:43] What is it? It is a bad it.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:50:47] You know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] That's awesome. Okay, so. So you just didn't want any part of that kind of snobby family?

Gina Colvin [00:50:53] I think perhaps. I think perhaps I didn't want to be made to feel like I had to deserve him.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Yeah.

Gina Colvin [00:51:01] You know, that he was stooping to marry me. I knew that there was. He comes from a big family. I knew there were concerns about his attachment for me. And he was white.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] He was fully white. White.

Gina Colvin [00:51:12] Yeah, he was white. And you know, he had the pedigree. Wow. He had the pedigree.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] Oh, okay.

Gina Colvin [00:51:17] And, you know, I thought. No, that. I don't. I don't want to be stuck with that feeling. Like I should feel like I'm lucky to be part of that family and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] So, okay, so you broke it up. Okay, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take us on a detour for a second. So, so, you know, I, I, I served my mission in Latin America, and it was very common for missionaries and mission presidents and general authorities to all tell, to explicitly come down and tell the Latin Americans that they were literal descendants of the Lamanites. Is that what the Maori were told? And did you grow up kind of self identifying as a Lamanite?

Māori Identity and the Book of Mormon

Gina Colvin [00:52:00] Yeah, yeah, we did. I mean, that's important mythology. I should have mentioned that before. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Okay, so you're like, I'm a laymanite.

Gina Colvin [00:52:12] We were a little confused because, you know, you had, at byu, you had the Lamanite generation. Right, Right. And they were Native Americans, which was

John Dehlin [00:52:18] a performing, which was like a singing and dancing group that would, that would, you know, they were Native Americans and they would perform songs and dances for people. Right?

Gina Colvin [00:52:28] That's right. That's right. So there was a little bit of ambivalence about claiming that identity because that belonged to Native Americans. But certainly we were the descendants of Hagoth. We had Nephite, you know, Lamanite ancestry.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Who's Hagoth? Is that a Book of Mormon character?

Gina Colvin [00:52:45] John, where have you been?

John Dehlin [00:52:47] I've been in trouble. I've been, I've been wandering. You know, you had your, you had your string when you were 14. I'm just a little late to the party, I think you are. Who's Hagoth?

Gina Colvin [00:52:58] Yeah, Hagos was the bit, the boat builder that took off post the, that fourth Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Okay. Yeah. And the rumor is that he went to the, you know, Polynesia Pacific Islands kind of thing.

Gina Colvin [00:53:12] That's right. And that was a rumor began by Matthew Cowley and Inspector W. Kimball started that. So the Pacific Islanders apparently, you know, descended from, you know, Hagoth and his boat, fearing people.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] Would that have been in your patriarchal blessing or.

Gina Colvin [00:53:29] In my patriarchal blessing? It says I'm literal descendant. I haven't looked at it for so long, maybe I should. Literal descendant of Joseph through Ephraim and the, and the blood of Israel runs richly in my veins.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] Okay, so you're Ephraim in your patriarchal blessing. But, but you still, you were taught that you guys were Lamanites, right? Right?

Gina Colvin [00:53:52] I think so. Yeah, pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] And were, were Maoris denied the priesthood prior to, to 1970? Eight.

Gina Colvin [00:54:01] No.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Okay, so they were, they were brown enough, but not too brown.

Gina Colvin [00:54:05] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] And not, not associated with Africa. So.

Gina Colvin [00:54:09] No. And then we, I know we made sense of that. Well, you know, and I was kind of young, but I knew enough of it, the history of it as being. That's just something America did. That's not, that doesn't belong to God. That's an American issue.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] Really?

Gina Colvin [00:54:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:26] Okay, so did you ever have this moment where you're reading the Book of Mormon and you know, 16, 17, and it starts talking about God wanting to make people's skin dark and loathsome so that, so that the white and delightsome people wouldn't be attracted to them, to. Wanted to make them ugly. Was there ever a point where you're like, hey, that, that kind of hurts?

Gina Colvin [00:54:50] Yes and no. It was a bit of a joke, actually. I went to byu, Hawaii for a little while, just for a couple of semesters, if that. And, you know, and I was quite fair compared with, you know, other Mori there. And I would just sort of joke that I was white and delightsome because, you know, of my righteousness, you know, it was a bit of a joke. And if you have a look at, if you look at Mori, that it's not about skin color as much as it is about fairness as a beauty. Yeah, yeah. You know, it wasn't a big thing. Wasn't a big thing. It was certainly there. But there wasn't any outrage about it for you? I don't think generally there was any outrage about it. I don't recall anything.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Like, I just, I just think that's fascinating. I mean, I'm not trying to impose my perceptions on others, but I remember as a, as a teen not being dark skinned and really struggling with that, you know.

Gina Colvin [00:55:55] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] That's the white man's guilt. I don't know.

Gina Colvin [00:55:57] Maybe it is. Maybe. I mean, like, I'm not saying it wasn't absent in the conversation. It was just a silly thing. You know, I don't recall people getting too angry about it because nobody actually really thought that maybe that's a problem.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] Maybe liberals and progressives and intellectuals are just take things too seriously.

Gina Colvin [00:56:14] Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Because you would have to tell somebody that, you know, their skin color, you know, very dark, their skin color match their righteousness. Well, you know, you had branch presidents and bishops and stake presidents who are very dark. Or what are you going to say? Like, it just, it was a nonsense so it must mean something else because it didn't Actually bear itself out.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Yeah. I mean, that's just two very different experiences with. With polygamy, with Joseph Smith, and with racism versus. Kind of what I was thinking. Okay, cool. So you're. You're at BYU Hawaii. You're. You're loving life and. But. But did you bring. So you married and brought your husband to byu? Why with you?

Gina Colvin [00:56:55] No, no, no, no. This. I went to BYU Hawaii, I think, when I was 17 or something, and it lasted a little while. I thought, this isn't the place for me. I want to go home. And I went. I went back, and so I married my first husband.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:57:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] And you guys stayed together for how long?

Gina Colvin [00:57:11] We stayed together for three years. He had just graduated. It wasn't. Yeah, another crazy story. He had just graduated and with a law degree. He was white. And

John Dehlin [00:57:25] he.

Gina Colvin [00:57:26] There was a stake reorganization, and our bishop was being released and made the stake president. And he was called as the bishop by Elder Worthland.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] So he was like, by Joseph.

Gina Colvin [00:57:37] Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Okay. All right.

Gina Colvin [00:57:42] And so he was.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] You were the bishop's wife.

Gina Colvin [00:57:44] I was a bishop's wife. And I was barely out of nappies, you know, my bones hadn't set yet, you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] Now, is that diapers? Nappies. Is that what? Diapers.

Gina Colvin [00:57:51] Oh, yes. Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] Just making sure. You're barely out of diapers. You're the bishop's wife.

Gina Colvin [00:57:56] Okay, I'm the bishop's wife. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] And he's a convert, so that's interesting.

Gina Colvin [00:57:59] And he hadn't served a mission.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] Wow, they're really. They're really scraping the bottle of the barrel.

Gina Colvin [00:58:06] No, they were. But I tell you what, did it. Because we were called into a meeting. Now he can't. He can't extend the Elder Worth and couldn't extend the call. That was the state president's job. But we're invited to a meeting to, you know, as an approval process. And he seemed a little bit disinterested until he asked my first husband, you know, what are you doing? He said, I'm a lawyer. And Elder Worth and just perked up. And he goes, well, a lawyer. Oh, okay. A lawyer. Right. Okay, A lawyer. Yeah. I think I'll go with this. President.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] Awesome.

Gina Colvin [00:58:40] Like them lawyers, those apostles. Like them lawyers?

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Well, yeah, Lawyers have their benefits. Okay, wait a minute. So bishop serves for five years. You were only married for three. So are you divorcing the bishop or what? What?

Gina Colvin [00:58:55] Ah, now there's where it gets interesting. So after three years of marriage, it turned out that he was shagging somebody.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Whoa. Okay. And in America terms, that means that's Austin Powers. That's sleeping with someone else.

Gina Colvin [00:59:09] Yeah. It's having an affair.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Wild Bishop.

Gina Colvin [00:59:11] Yeah. While the Bishop.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Okay. Elder Worthland, his inspiration was wanting.

Gina Colvin [00:59:17] It was off.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Okay.

Gina Colvin [00:59:23] So that was an abrupt end to

John Dehlin [00:59:25] our relationship and to his tenure as bishop.

Gina Colvin [00:59:29] Yes. Well, not so abrupt. Not so abrupt. And this becomes really important because I think it was. Ronald Pullman was in the area office in Australia at the time. The state president was conversing with him, saying, look, there's something going on. It wasn't immediately apparent that he was shagging somebody else else, but that he just wanted out of the marriage. And this happened like, on Christmas Day in 1989 or something. I can't remember. And so the state president was counseling with us, and then he and my first husband said, that's it. No, I'm done. I'm out of this marriage. I was actually, I have to say, like, it's devastating going to. To kind of be put in that position. But I was a little relieved just because he kind of didn't feel like. Like, you know. Yeah, I was a little relieved. So if he was listening to this, don't worry about it. I was a bit relieved.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] It couldn't have been a great marriage.

Gina Colvin [01:00:21] No, it wasn't. It was wrong. And I put it down to astrology. I'm a Leo, he's a Scorpio. They must be married. I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:00:27] Yeah.

Gina Colvin [01:00:28] And so is Dan.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] When's your birthday?

Gina Colvin [01:00:30] 3rd of August.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Oh, Dan Witherspoon. Yeah.

Gina Colvin [01:00:33] He's a Leo, too, I think.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Awesome. Okay, so. So it's horoscope. Your horoscopes didn't align, and that's. That's what doomed the marriage?

Gina Colvin [01:00:39] I think so. I think so, John.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Okay. Okay. So. So were you heartbroken? Like, that's incredibly embarrassing. Right?

Gina Colvin [01:00:48] I think it was a lot of things. It was a lot of things going on. I was. I was relieved. I was mortified. Yeah. There was a whole lot of stuff going on at the same time. Yeah. I mean, it was just. And very, very public. Of course.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Yeah. I mean. Yeah.

Gina Colvin [01:01:08] And one of the problems that I had was that he wasn't released for about three and a half months. And so I had to go to church on Sunday, you know, and he would be making googly eyes at the woman that he was shagging.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Oh, he was shagging a member of the ward.

Gina Colvin [01:01:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Holy moly.

Gina Colvin [01:01:26] I know. It was just a. You know, I was going to say a cluster. Something beginning with F, but that's what it was.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Is that a swear word in New Zealand put together?

Gina Colvin [01:01:35] I mean, I think it's pretty universal, the F word.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] Okay.

Gina Colvin [01:01:40] It's French.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] Okay, okay. All right. So. Wow. So someone in the world, was it someone you'd grown up with or knew?

Gina Colvin [01:01:47] No, it's my brother's, My foster brother's ex girlfriend.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Okay, okay, okay.

Gina Colvin [01:01:52] So then he got her pregnant. But I mean, I think the thing that I found really hard was that I read the handbook and it said that a bishop who is, has, has, you know, done this, abandoned his family responsibilities and it was just, he and I, we didn't have any children, but we're still a family, should have an immediate church discipline.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Yeah, of course.

Gina Colvin [01:02:12] And that didn't happen. And I, and I begged, I said, you need to have a church discipline. And because I was a woman, I don't know, nobody listened to me. So three and a half months it went on. It was, that was really, really difficult because I didn't have any, you know, I didn't have a bishop. Bishop. My bishop was my ex husband who was having an affair with somebody else. That was such poor judgment on the part of, you know, all of these people who are responsible for the ecclesiastical fears of that ward. Should never have happened.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] Oh, wow, that's so, that's so difficult. Okay, okay. So how do you rebound from that?

Gina Colvin [01:02:52] Well, in New Zealand it's a compulsory two year separation period.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Okay.

Gina Colvin [01:02:58] And in the meantime, he had left the church. He. Well, he'd still continued to come to church and then they'd had a baby and then they broke up. So that was, that's my ex husband. And so I continued to come to church and sort of after two years we went to court and had our marriage annulled. And I thought, wow, okay, well, I'm going to go to Australia. It's the last time I ever say that too. It's like Canadians saying, I'm going to go to America.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] So is there a rivalry between New Zealanders and Australia?

Gina Colvin [01:03:27] Oh, you know, of course, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Okay.

Gina Colvin [01:03:29] We call it a rivalry across the ditch. So.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] I thought you ran away.

Gina Colvin [01:03:34] Yeah, well, I was, I was going to. And I bought my tickets to go to Australia and I was ready and. And then my ex husband's executive secretary arrived back from his mission and he. We were in Sunday school one day and I was asked to give a lesson and I said, no, I don't, I don't, I'm not going to give that lesson because I'm going to Australia. And he had a witness of the spirit that he ought to stop me. Oh, and so that's my current husband, Nathan.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] Oh, wow. Okay.

Gina Colvin [01:04:07] Go, Nathan.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] So he was right off his mission.

Gina Colvin [01:04:10] He was, yeah, he was. Really soon we got divorced in the February. He was back at. By June.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] You were married by June?

Gina Colvin [01:04:16] Oh, no, we were married in September.

John Dehlin [01:04:19] Okay. Oh, okay. Okay, wait. She get divorced in February, he gets home from his mission in June, and you're married in September?

Gina Colvin [01:04:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] That's almost like byu. That's crazy.

Gina Colvin [01:04:31] That's crazy. Isn't it crazy?

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Well, that's. So he wasn't. You weren't, like, damaged? You weren't like a chewed piece of gum or, you know, a manhandled Snickers bar to him?

Gina Colvin [01:04:43] No, I was an experienced woman who had much to teach him.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] Oh, wow. I'm not gonna pursue that line of. Okay, so. Yeah, so. But he wasn't, like, ashamed of you or, like, concerned about the baggage or any of that stuff?

Gina Colvin [01:05:01] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] I mean, I guess. I guess if your husband was the bishop. Ex. Husband. Was the bishop. And was shagging somebody, you're not going to be held responsible.

Gina Colvin [01:05:12] No, I don't think so. And I mean, my husband, he's a. He's a. He's a great man. He's got a good sense of humor, and he's, you know, one out of the box. He's idiosyncratic as well. So. So, yeah, so that. I mean, that. That happened by utter and absolute inspiration. That whole marriage thing, I just wouldn't have even considered. He's younger than me. Do you know? I was the bishop. Wife. Wife. And he was in young men's. You know, that's how kind of crazy it was. So, yeah, so he came back and had a very strong impression that we should get married. He'd had a vision of our life together. And, yeah, there was nothing. He was just dogging. So I said, oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] And he was. He was younger than you?

Gina Colvin [01:05:53] Yeah, yeah, he still is.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] Oh, so it stayed that way. So how many years?

Gina Colvin [01:05:59] Four years.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] He's four years younger. Okay, cool. Cool. And it's been happily ever after.

Gina Colvin [01:06:05] Yeah, yeah, it's been great. He's a nice. He's a good man.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights. When with the wounded heart Anger or malice I draw myself apart searching my soul.