Introduction and Greg's Intentions for the Interview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1661

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is September 8, 2022, and it has been a busy few weeks and months here on Mormon Stories podcast, but I am just over the moon excited for today's episode. I know I say that frequently, but today is a really special Mormon Stories interview. Today we are interviewing Greg or Gregory Garrettson, the grandson of the late or deceased, and I'd even say beloved Mormon apostle Joseph B. Wirthlin. And for those of you who have never been Mormon, the Mormon Church has a first presidency, which is a prophet, and then two counselors. They are apostles, just like Jesus had 12 apostles. They're considered apostles and special witnesses of Christ. And then within the Mormon Church, there's a quorum of the 12 apostles, the again, just like Jesus assembled. So these 15 men are, I think, the closest thing to royalty that you could imagine within a Mormon context. These are men that are viewed as special witnesses of Christ. They are viewed as people who have likely spoken with Christ or met Christ. That's at least the cultural perception of them. They, you know, when they walk into an auditorium of a thousand people or 15,000 people or 30,000 people, everybody stands. They are revered as the right hand men of Jesus and as the most righteous men in the world by, you know, anywhere between 5 and 16 million Mormons across the world. So if you think about royalty, that's about as close as it gets. So of course, it has been very rare to have family members of apostles come on Mormon Stories podcast to kind of share their stories. And having said that, there have been a few. So we did have the son of Spencer B. Kimball, who was a Mormon prophet. He did come on. Ed Kimball was his name. It's a great episode. He was a faithful Mormon, but a progressive, liberal Mormon. He's come on Mormon Stories. We had the granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard come on Laura Roper. I believe I'm a little fuzzy on the names. She came on and talked about being the granddaughter of M. Russell Ballard. And then we also had two of the grandchildren of Neal A. Maxwell come on Mormon Stories podcast, Ashley Sanders and Kimball Sanders. Very early on in the time of Mormon Stories, they were still like BYU student age. I may be forgetting one or two others, but those are the ones that come to mind. But, but it's relatively rare. What's more interesting to me is the fact that I've met and corresponded with many, let's just say, children and or grandchildren of current and former Mormon apostles and many who have completely lost their faith and even left the church. What's been really stark to me is to learn about this kind of either explicit or unspoken code, which is that if you're in the family of a Mormon apostle, you would never ever come out publicly and talk about it. And so that's what makes today a really special interview because we have the grandson of Joseph B. Wirthland, beloved Mormon apostle, who has gone through his own faith journey that we'll talk about. We won't give away the ending, but not only has he had, you know, grew up as the son of an apostle, has stories to tell about his grandpa and grandma, whom he loves and really respects, but he's also willing to talk about his life as the grandson of an apostle, Mormon apostle, the good and the bad and the ugly about that. What was hard for him. So we're going to be telling his story first about what it was like, the positive and the negative about that. We'll talk about his own faith journey. That's going to be part one of our interview today. So that'll be a couple hours. And then part two of the interview will be just an open Q and A where I just ask him a gazillion questions about his memories of his grandfather and his impressions of what it's like to be a Mormon apostle from the point of view of a grandchildren of that apostle. And Greg, you've been really wanting to be careful that you're not trying to be the expert on your grandpa. You're just wanting to share your memories and experiences. But welcome, but welcome to Mormon Stories and thank you so much for being willing to come on.

Greg Gerritsen [00:04:42] Well, thank you and thank you for having me. And I do want to have the disclaimer that these are my opinions, my experiences, and in no way am I trying to be the spokesman for the family or be the authority figure of what it was like, because everybody has different experiences and they see things through their own eyes. And I don't want to take away from any of that, but this is just what I experienced as well as what. What I saw and perceived to be reality. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] And thank you so much for being willing to come on. I think this is a real act of courage. Some people may not even get how in, in my view, courageous this is, but I really appreciate it and I know many of my viewers and listeners will too. I. It may seem weird, but is it okay? Do you mind talking about this? Is there a explicit or an implicit code? And if so, like, before we jump into your story, what family or church culture would be coming to your mind as you're considering reaching out to me.

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] And saying I may or may not want to come on the podcast. What would be the familial or cultural influences that would be coming down to bear on you?

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:10] There's definitely pressure not to draw attention to the family, especially the legacy. And it's a very unspoken rule, but it is there. And you don't do anything that would ever tarnish the name, the legacy of the brethren.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Meaning what? Meaning the brethren. Meaning who?

Greg Gerritsen [00:06:38] The Quorum of the twelve Apostles and the first presidency, the church. You don't ever do anything that would embarrass them. And that's the code that I think the family kind of lets other family know that that's a code because I've never heard anything from my granddad telling us what we're allowed and not allowed to do. But I definitely heard that from aunts, uncles, parents, that you have to act in a certain way or there's things that are okay and not okay and you just know that something like this would be shunned. It'd be frowned upon very, very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] So is this, is this a scary thing for you or do you have, would you. Would fears or worries come up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:07:44] No, I wouldn't say I don't, I don't have fears over this. I do wonder how it's going to be received by family. I think I can see some,

John Dehlin [00:08:01] some

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:02] people not, not taking it too well. But at the same time, I think, I think there's more benefit from, from light being shed on things than, than the risk of upsetting a few people.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] So let's start there with your intention. Let's have you say what your intentions are not and then let's have you say what your intentions are in doing this interview.

Greg Gerritsen [00:08:30] Thank you. I really appreciate that. Because I don't want the limelight. I'm not looking to have it be an attention grabbing scheme by myself. I want people to understand that. First of all, I really believe that my granddad had the best of intelligence intentions. I don't believe that he was trying to deceive people. But also I want people to know that there's a lot of man worship in the church and a lot of people place such high reverence for these people that they often put the people before their own families. They try to get in front of these people so much that they don't realize the human aspects of these people as well as what's really important in life. Do you really need to impress someone that you've never met and that you, you have no, like, you have no business of, of trying to impress someone that they won't remember you. I mean, it's just with, with a church with 16 million people and who knows how many active when they meet someone, there is little to no chance that they are going to remember that person yet. Over the course of my life, when my granddad was alive, there were a lot of people that worked really hard to get in front of him. And I think the overall thing that I want to get out of this is that people, people should not work so hard to try to impress someone that in the, at the end of the day, you have no, no chance of, of really making, making a big impact on. And the people that you do have a big impact on are the ones around you. And that's where your energy should be focused on.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] I also, for me, I'm really interested in knowing the human side, both of what it's like to be a family member of someone who has given disproportionate attention and power and influence, what it's like to be the family member of that person. So your, your story, especially about how you were treated on your mission and even after, was really pulled on my heartstrings quite a bit. The pressures and the distortions, but also to humanize the office of the apostle, to talk about what's hard about the role. What. Yeah, what, what made your grandpa uncomfortable, what things he didn't like about it, what some of the interpersonal dynamics were in, in the position that people wouldn't see or understand, not, not as sort of like a National Enquirer kind of like. Right, but, but just to humanize every, your grandpa and your grandma and everyone around them.

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:07] Right. And a lot of, a lot of those. And I will put out the disclaimer that those, a lot of those will be impressions and just firsthand experiences from my point of view. And again, this is not his autobiography. It's not his words, as he would say it, but just your experience. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah. All right. Well, Gregory Garretson, where does your Mormon story begin?

Growing Up as a Grandchild of an Apostle

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:38] And you can call me Greg. I go by Greg Greg. I only go by Gregory when I'm in trouble and when my mom and dad were really mad at me. So.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] All right, Greg, where does your Mormon story begin?

Greg Gerritsen [00:12:52] Well, I grew up in a family of seven kids. I was born in North Ogden, Utah. My family had lived there for a little while. I'm the sixth of seven kids, so I have Four brothers and two sisters. And I'm just right at the end.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] I'm assuming, since your last name is at Worthland, that your mom was the Worthland. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:23] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Do you want to talk about where. Where she fit in the family?

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] So.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:27] So my mom was kind of the middle child. She has one brother and I believe seven sisters.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Ooh.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:38] So she. They had a. They had a big family. I've. I've got over 40 cousins, and that's

John Dehlin [00:13:45] nine kids by Joseph B. Wirthlin and his wife. Wife. Is that right? Yes. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:49] So big family.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Where she grow up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:51] She grew up just right by East High.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Oh, so that's High School Musical. That's what high school musicals filmed.

Greg Gerritsen [00:13:59] And then is that.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Is that kind of like Harvard, Yale area, or is that Sugar House? Is that the.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:04] Yeah. So she grew up on Military Drive.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's where the Huntsmans lived. You know, that's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] So I think the McConkeys, did they live near there?

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:19] Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. That area. And there's quite a few people that. I guess that's a very popular place. And. But my mom and dad were Both born in 1950, and my dad grew up in the Highland area.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:40] And so he went to Highland High. My. My mom went to East High, and

John Dehlin [00:14:44] these are like, five miles apart. East High and Highland High are not far apart, Right? Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:49] Yeah. And I mean, for me, where I grew up, that would be the same high school, but down here in the city, it's.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Yeah, yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:14:56] It's more condensed. So it's kind of referred to as

John Dehlin [00:15:01] East Bench, Salt Lake City. Is that fair to say?

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:03] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. It's within walking distance of the University of Utah. We'd always. When we went to football games, we'd park at their place and go walk.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Yeah, walk to the stadium.

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:16] Yes. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I grew up in a pretty big family. We had a lot of sibling rivalries and lots of cousin time with having over 40 cousins. I think there was 42. The numbers. I'm not going to be dead on with a family that big.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Are the Garretsons. Your dad's side is that pioneer stock?

Greg Gerritsen [00:15:51] Yeah, so it was very. My dad's side is. So my dad's parents, they divorced when they were. When he was about 11, and they had. So his grandpa from. His mom is Torleaf Knappis, the artist that did the Mormon handcart monument at Temple Square.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Nice.

Greg Gerritsen [00:16:22] And he's done Quite a bit of artwork for. For the church. So we had that legacy on his side of the family. And then his dad and his grandpa was kind of a rough guy. I wouldn't say he was active at all. And his dad was in and out of activity his whole church life. And he was kind of. When I grew up, we kind of joked about having the extremes on both ends of the spectrum of having an apostle on one hand. And then I had a grandpa that I. This is something that a lot of my family doesn't like to talk about, but I had an uncle that I had no idea even existed until I was 21 years old.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] How that. Why is that? Just. Was there something about him that made your family not talk about his existence?

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:27] It's just. Just an unpleasant reality that my. My grandpa had a meaning.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Elder Worthland.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:34] No, no, my. My dad's.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:36] My dad's dad.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:38] So that was. That was the polar extremes. We had an apostle on one end and then we had a grandpa that had a son that none of us knew about on the other end. And so I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] So like a troubled. Kind of a troubled family.

Greg Gerritsen [00:17:59] Yeah, it was. It was. It was a family with a lot of baggage on that end.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:04] And so it was. I wouldn't say they were bad people at all, but there was just a lot more drama on that end of the family. Okay. And so it was. It was something that was always there, but there wasn't much that was talked about about that family.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] So what was your dad's profession? And did your mom have a profession other than also stay at home?

Greg Gerritsen [00:18:33] Mom. Yeah. So my dad was a low vision therapist. So when. And most people don't know what that is because it's a very small branch of. It's not a doctor, but it's a rehabilitation specialist. And when eye doctors can't help people that are legally blind, he goes in and helps them cope with the sight that they have or with. With getting around with what they don't have.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] It almost sounds like occupational therapy, but focused on vision.

Greg Gerritsen [00:19:14] Yes, That's. That's probably the best explanation. Okay. So he. He did that. He also would. To make ends meet. My mom worked. She worked many jobs. I remember when she was. When I was little, she worked at a gym. It was called Deseret Gym for people that are familiar with that. It used to be a church owned fitness center, and then they sold that. But she worked there for a number of years in Ogden, and then she worked for a dentist office. Basically the rest of my growing up years working as, as a clerk there. Okay, so what was the how, what

John Dehlin [00:20:04] was the how was Mormonism manifested in your, let's just say your childhood years? How faithful was your dad? How faithful was your mom? What were the spiritual or religious influences? What were your Mormon practices growing up?

Greg Gerritsen [00:20:19] Oh, we were very orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Okay, what does that mean?

Greg Gerritsen [00:20:23] We were very devout Mormons. Family home evening was a very forceful activity. Like we had to be there. It was every week. Every week, Every Monday. It was either Sunday or Monday, depending on what my dad's schedule was. But it was, I mean, my, my dad was pretty by the book and over the top in trying to check every box. So he believed we had to kneel down for family prayers even at mealtime.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] Oh, wow. So you're all there for family dinner on a Tuesday night and you're kneeling for family prayer.

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:18] He would want us kneeling down and there's quite a few of us. As soon as he would kneel down, we would, we'd get up. So what do you mean we would, we would, we weren't always, especially me, I didn't like, I don't like rules that I didn't see a point behind. So he would try to get us to do those things, but he couldn't always get us to do those things.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:21:49] So, I mean, he was very kind of. Let's check this box with reading the scriptures as a family, with doing all those things. So I would say if it was suggested by a leader in the church to do something, we did it. And so it was a very, I would say we, we tried to appear as a perfect family, church wise.

Family Standards and Religious Strictness

John Dehlin [00:22:23] What were some of the rules, like the standards that were most influential or emphasized in your family? Just to give even our non Mormon listeners a sense for the standards of your family. Oh, so I'll give you some things. So, so swearing.

Greg Gerritsen [00:22:42] Oh, yeah, it was, it happened, but it was not allowed. Yeah, so. And I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to paint my, my parents as villains or anything, but I mean, they would and not so much my mom, I, my mom is a saint. Like, she, she has such a great heart. I only heard her swear a couple times in my life and it was one of those. When she did it, you're like, whoa. We really pushed her over the edge. But my dad could use some language. And when he did, it was, you know, you're in trouble, but you can't talk about it. You can't, you can't, you can't Talk about how he, he did that. So. Because it was a, it was an unwritten rule that we don't swear, but you don't want to bring attention to it.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] So like, so like Sabbath observance.

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:49] Oh, Sabbath.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] What was that like?

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:50] It was very, the rules. It was very strict. Although.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] What were the rules?

Greg Gerritsen [00:23:55] The rules were you couldn't, you couldn't. Well, you had to be at church, you had to be early, which I was always awful at being to church early. And my kids will also say that I'm never early to church and so but that like you're at church and back then church was three hours a day. And I mean, growing up, my dad always had meetings, so he would be at church most of the day. And we.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] Was he in leadership callings?

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:31] He was in leadership callings most of my growing up years.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] So like was he bishop at some point or bishopric?

Greg Gerritsen [00:24:37] He was bishop when I was 16. He was bishop, but even younger. He was in the bishopric at younger ages. And yeah, and so I, he was, he had various stake callings. He was in the stake presidency at, after he was bishop. So I mean I, I had lots of, lots of times with him trying to interview me as bishop and I, I didn't like that. So. And, and I can save that story for later. But yeah, but yeah, there was.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] So he was gone a lot on.

Greg Gerritsen [00:25:15] He was, he was gone a lot. He was on the stand a lot as a. When I was little. So I remember sitting on a row with six other kids and my mom and being at the youngest. A lot of my siblings by the time I was 10, one by one they all started moving away. So a lot of my growing up years when I have really good memories is with fewer and fewer siblings. And as my dad is bishop and he was gone a lot more and away from the home. So our Sabbath day rules changed with him being gone.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] Are you saying they relaxed?

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:05] They relaxed. Not because he relaxed, but more. He was gone, he was gone. And I was able to get away with more things. So I, we. I'm a big sports fan. I played football and baseball and basketball occasionally, but we would, we would, we loved watching NFL football on Sundays. And that was, that was like our, our thing. We. I never missed a big game on, on a Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] And we'll learn that that's. That your grandpa, Joseph B. Wirthlin played football for the U. So in that sense you, both, you and your grandpa shared a love for football.

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:46] Yes. Oh, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] But are you saying your dad would not have been a Fan of football. NFL football being watched on Sunday. Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [00:26:53] It. It depended on the. The mood he was in there. There were days that he would like to watch the games, and then there were days that he said, we should turn this off. And it was hit or miss. But, man, I would have loved to have an iPad and ability to watch it on a tablet because then I never would have missed a game.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] Any other thing you want to say about, like, family rules, strictness, family standards?

Greg Gerritsen [00:27:26] Yeah, I mean, it was just. We were expected to be Eagle Scouts. We were expected to by a certain age, not a certain age. I think I got it. You know, I was. I probably drug my heels the most out of all of my. My brothers getting it. If I didn't have. There was. There was a. An old neighbor that really mentored me, and he. He pretty much forced me to get my Eagle Scout. He'd come up and pick me up from my house and he. His name is Don Brimhall. And I know. I know some of his family members.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Listen, Von Brody was a Brimhall.

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:13] Yes, yes, yes. And I think there's a family connection there.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:18] And Don. Don was a World War II vet that. He loves scouting because of what taught people to be prepared, to be good military people. And so he wanted everybody to serve in the military and to get their Eagle Scout. So he basically made sure I got my Eagle Scout. So I got it around 14 or 15 years old.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] And you're saying that's late.

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:50] That was late for my.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] So your brother's the earliest brother?

Greg Gerritsen [00:28:54] I think they were about 13, early 14. I was late compared to my brothers.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Only In Mormonism is 14 years old. Late as an age to get your Eagle Scout.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:08] And without Don, I would have not ever got it. And he had so many stories that just fascinated me. And he was not the typical Mormon either. He had. He had so many. So many cool things in his house that was the typical Mormon did not have. So he. He really made a big impression on me. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] So you were saying standards, Eagle Scout.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Sabbath observance.

Greg Gerritsen [00:29:41] Eagle Scout. Sabbath was big scriptures. Seminary was mandatory. I didn't do the EFY thing, but most of my siblings did that. I kind of. I made a big scene about not going to that. And that's called especially for youth. Now they've.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] For the strength of youth.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:12] Yeah. Now they've made that program for the strength of youth. But I was never into that. And I think I was the silent, rebellious.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:23] Person.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] So let me. Let me Drill into something. So what I'm hearing you say is high standards in your family, high level of orthodoxy. And, and then I'm also hearing a high importance on appearance. That the family appear.

Greg Gerritsen [00:30:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Super righteous and orthodox and faithful. And then I'm also hearing that you, even as a child and as a teen were a bit, a bit of a dissenter, you know, not feeling totally good about all of this orthodoxy and all of this. Yeah, all this orthodoxy.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] What was it like in your family culture regarding the awareness that grandpa was a Mormon apostle and, and how did that affect your, your family conversations and your family culture? And if you have stories about that. And I'm mostly talking about reputation.

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:20] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] And expectations. How did that play out in your family?

Greg Gerritsen [00:31:24] Oh, that was huge. Appearance was everything. And having to live up to that appearance was also. And I would say I think that played a big role in my dad's psyche as well because he grew up in a very different reality than what I did. His youth was very rough. He. He had a broken family and he had a dad that he never knew if he could count on. And so his dad came back around and was a good grandpa and a good dad later on in life. But his growing up years, he didn't have that. And so when I was younger, young, he wanted to have that appearance of perfection, especially with the expectations of being a son in law of an apostle. And so I think that shaped who he was and the kind of person that he was. So he tried so hard to have us to be perfect that he would be really forceful to us and he'd be getting upset with us when we're not perfect. As anyone can expect with seven kids. You are not going to have perfection. Especially when we have to drive an hour in the car to go visit them.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] To visit who?

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:21] To visit family. Because we grew up in North. North Ogden, which is about an hour drive away from Salt Lake City. And all of our cousins, all of our, all of the extended family lived in the Salt Lake Valley and we were the only ones that lived away. And so are you saying there'd be

John Dehlin [00:33:44] regular family events where like the Worthlands would all get together like on a Sunday?

Greg Gerritsen [00:33:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] And so your family would. Nine of you would get in the car, drive to like the Sunday Worthland family event with grandma and grandpa, and then your parents would want you all to be super well behaved for Grandma and grandpa.

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:02] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] And. And that was the setup.

Greg Gerritsen [00:34:05] And. And yeah, so that's the setup. And then as we get out of the car, my Mom. No, not my mom. My dad had been yelling at us and there was a good chance he sprinkled in some swear words at us. And as soon as we get out of the car, he puts on a showing of perfection. And to be fair for him, he's trying to live up to that expectation as well as he doesn't want to throw, he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to let people down. And so that was really apparent to us as kids is we were one way behind closed doors. But then we were expected in front of other people to have a side of perfection. And it really bothered me from a young age. And I think I really started to get extremely bothered by it in fifth grade. And I, I was acting out in fifth grade and I was just being a normal kid and I didn't realize how much the family name could, the leeway it could have with certain people. I was out at recess, which is just a 20, 30 minute break during class where you can go play on the playground and do things in elementary school.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] And

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:04] I had really broken some rules at recess and I knew I was going to be in trouble. And the teacher that caught me was a pretty orthodox Mormon, really devout Mormon, and she knew my family really well and she totally let me off the hook because, because of my granddad. And I was kind of looking forward to getting into trouble because if I got into trouble, I was going to have to stay home from the next family activity and I didn't want to go. So I.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Why didn't you want to go?

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:47] I didn't want to go because I was just kind of tired of that side of perfection.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] The pressure.

Greg Gerritsen [00:36:53] Yeah. And just the, the show and it. So I was, I tried to act out in school to, to, to get away from a family get together and it totally backfired. She, she pulled me aside and she said at the time my grandpa was having a little bit of health problems. And let's see, that would have put me at about age 11. So he was in his late 70s at the time and he was just having just a little bit of health issues. And she had heard about his health issues from my mom. And she said, and I'll always remember this, she said, look, I know you were doing something that you shouldn't be doing, but don't worry, I won't tell your mom. And I loved your granddad's talk last conference, so just go back to class. And I was so disappointed. It was the first time that I was ever upset that my granddad was an apostle because my plan had backfired because of her love for him. So. And. And that's when I, I realized, like, the. How much people look at, at the, the leaders of the church.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Yeah, interesting.

Greg Gerritsen [00:38:32] So

John Dehlin [00:38:34] interesting because you would think that maybe if you had. You were part of a family that had privilege, you would just be excited for all the ways you could get out of trouble and do whatever you wanted or get privilege. But I imagine if you have a certain personality or a certain conscience, you would know that there's something wrong about that privilege, you know?

Greg Gerritsen [00:38:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] Harmful or disturbing.

Greg Gerritsen [00:39:00] Well, and every, Everyone is wired a different way. And I, I don't know. I, I don't want to try to cast myself as a good person or as one way or another, but it just affected me in a different way. I didn't like attention for something that I didn't do or recognition for something that I didn't deserve recognition for. And so that's something that always bothered me. And I also was shaped by what I saw and what I experienced. I saw how my parents handled it. I saw how other family members handled it. And also I was watching how my granddad handled the pressure and the, the limelight, and I was trying to handle how people would come up to me in my own way. And, you know, there was, there was no, There was no handbook for how to do it. And so you just, you just kind of learn to deal with it as it comes. And, and there was interactions. A lot of kids, parents would ask me questions or ask me to ask questions to my granddad, give some examples. I had a church leader ask me if I could ask my granddad about whether he's seen Jesus or not. And that was, that was something that, that was probably the most common question that I would get from people. And as, as a kid, I just, I knew that that was not appropriate to ask my granddad, so I never asked it. But I would just tell the. I would just tell people. I'll ask it when you, when you are willing to not ask me any questions about my granddad, because I just. I don't know, I didn't know how to respond to a question like that.

Questions You Could Never Ask a Mormon Apostle

John Dehlin [00:41:34] I mean, that's really interesting because so much of their power at, you know, Mormon apostles, right. So much of their power is the general perception that they are special witnesses of Christ, because that's what we're told they are.

Greg Gerritsen [00:41:50] Right?

John Dehlin [00:41:50] And if you're a special witness of Christ, you know, you could nuance that phrase, but to an average Mormon it means that you've had your second anointing or the second comforter. It means that you've seen Christ. And there's lots of scriptures that talk about that's your goal in life, is to actually have the second comforter or see Christ. And so like, you know, it's, it's kind of fair that Mormons are really thinking about that and asking about it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:21] Oh, right.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Because that's where they derive so much of their power and their prestige. And so on the one hand, I think it's just totally fair. On the other hand, I can see why it would be super annoying, but I'm fascinated by the fact that you just understood, without it ever being said, that it was completely taboo to even ask him to. Because I think that's probably the most fair question to ask him on some level. And yet, you know, to never ask that.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:50] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Sorry, you knew, you knew to never ask what probably is the most important question you could ask.

Greg Gerritsen [00:42:57] Right. And as, I mean, I remember as a 12 year old being asked that. And I remember, I remember looking at the guy just thinking, I am not going to ask him that, especially for someone that I have no positive relationship with. And so it is a fair question and something that I just, at the time, I just thought, well, it's crazy, of course he has.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] So your conclusion was that he had.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:33] Yo. Yeah, I mean, I had.

John Dehlin [00:43:36] Because that's a big deal to talk to Jesus. Right, Right. If he really had talked to Jesus, that would be a huge. Because it means God lives. It means that Jesus is the Christ and is resurrected. And it means that this is God's one true church and that he's literally an apostle. Like, that's almost everything. That's everything.

Greg Gerritsen [00:43:55] My parents were so orthodox and through all the family lessons that we had, that was just inferred to us, like you just knew that that's what, that's what kind of witness he was.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] And so, so that was just understood in your family that grandpa had seen Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] And talked to Jesus.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:23] Yeah. And that's again, my brothers, my sisters, they may say something separate, but that's what my impression was.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Yeah. And that was my impression growing up

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:36] that apostles talked to Jesus and me as well. So a question like that from a leader that I barely knew and that his only interaction with me was yelling at us at scout camp. I wasn't going to ask my granddad for the.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:44:58] For someone like that. So.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Well, it kind of objectifies you instead of you just being your own person Like, I get this with my kids. People come up to my kids, oh, your dad's John, blah, blah, blah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] They don't like that. They don't. It's like they're running around going, hey, I'm John's son. It's like, how about you just love me for me?

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] How about you not ever mention my dad to me?

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Because I just want to be me. I don't want to be my dad's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:21] Yeah. You know, I mean, you gotta, you gotta separate the person from the shadow.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:28] And I mean, there were so many experiences where you're just. You're just trying to be yourself and that. That shadow comes into play.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:45:44] And I mean, the. One of the most extreme examples of that was when I was in seminary, I had a teacher. And to this day he. And I don't. I'll see him in the community every now and again. And I don't think he will ever like me as a person. But he. The very first day of class, he. He was calling roll. And when he came to my name, he said, now I'm not, I'm not judging you from who your sister is because his. My sister was in his class a year or two before and she was in the seminary presidency. And he was the. He was over at the seminary presidency in the, in the school. And he said, I'm not judging you because of your sister or because of who your granddad is, but I expect more out of you. And I just kind of laughed and I was like, expect more? What do you mean? And he just got really upset that I would say that. And so we started off on the wrong foot. And within two or three days of class, he had kicked me out of his class.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Whoa. And

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:13] he pulled me into his office and said, I'm going to call your mom. And I said, great. I said, go ahead and do it. I mean, he kicked it. The final straw that he did the very first part of class, he would have this. A five minute scripture study where you're supposed to read the scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] What class is this again?

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:38] This was seminary.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] So he's a CES instructor.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Church employee.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:42] Church employee, yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:43] Yep. And. And because we're so.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] A CES instructor kicks an apostle's grandson out of seminary. That's.

Greg Gerritsen [00:47:51] Oh, yeah, that's kind of bold. Oh. And. And the story gets better. So. So he. I'm just sitting in the class and he had put me right in the front center desk of the class, and my friend was sitting right behind me and I had a little water bottle, and I was taking a drink of water, and my friend just taps me on my head as I have it tilted back and taking a drink. And so when he taps me on the head, the drink spills all over. I've got water running down my chest, and everybody in the class is laughing. And he kicks me out of class for that. And my friend sitting right next to right behind me was like, well, it was me that did it. And he didn't even get in trouble. He. I got in trouble.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Oh. And so that's the opposite of your story in elementary school.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:03] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] You're getting in trouble because you're the apostle's grandson.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:06] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] That's different.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:09] Yeah, it was. It was really different. And so he sends me out into the hall, and I was like, well, if I'm going to get in. If I got in trouble for doing nothing, I better have fun with this.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Better earn it.

Greg Gerritsen [00:49:20] So he said, I'll be out in the hall in two minutes. And so the hall had carpet walls, and I kind of put my arms on one end of the wall and my feet on the other, and I climbed up above the door. And when he came out of the class to come yell at me, I was hiding above the door. And he looked down both sides of the hall and he couldn't see me. And then I just dropped right in front of him and scared him. And his blood pressure just went through the roof. And he just went. He just went crazy on me and was yelling at me and telling me that that is not how the grandson of an apostle should act and that he wanted to bring my mom in and have me expelled from seminary. And I was excited about that. I was like, wait, I don't have to go. So he called. He called my mom. And my. My mom was actually off work that day, and she came in and she had a meeting with the seminary president. And that teacher. And the seminary president was just so apologetic to my mom. But my mom laid into that seminary teacher because he crossed the line with her. And I had never heard my mom yell at someone, another adult. And he brought up. He brought up my grandad's name to my mom and said that he was disappointed in Elder Worthland because of my behavior.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Disappointed in Elder Worthland?

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:22] Yeah. Yeah. He thought that my behavior was a reflection on him.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] Oh, my gosh.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:29] And so this guy's out of line. He was very out of line. And my mom put him back in line, and I was put in the class of my choosing. After that. And the seminary president, who's now my neighbor, still laughs at that interaction.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Like, this guy's boss or.

Greg Gerritsen [00:51:55] Yeah, okay. Yeah. Cause he. He. He's a good friend of mine, and

John Dehlin [00:51:59] he's not the teacher, but.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:01] No, no, not the teacher. The teacher, to this day, does not like me.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] He probably. That probably wasn't good for his career.

Greg Gerritsen [00:52:08] You know, I have no idea what happened. He's. He's now in a different career. But. But needless to say, he and I don't have very good feelings to. Towards each other still. So. But that, like, to me, that was an example of kind of how people held these guys up to such a high level that sometimes they had the same expectations for their families. And, I mean, I remember being in another seminary class, and they were talking about Sabbath day worship, and they talked about how this teacher was taking it so literally that he said, on the Sabbath, you cannot watch tv. And I just kind of laughed because just. I think it was the week prior was Jello Conference, and it was in October, and there was. My favorite team was the 49ers.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Steve Young.

Greg Gerritsen [00:53:25] Yep. Steve Young.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] And Montana.

Greg Gerritsen [00:53:27] Yeah. Before Steve Young, it was like, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana. Yeah. John Taylor, all of those players. My favorite player was Tom Rathman, and I just love that team. Well, so they were playing, and it was right after conference, and it was. It was perfect because it was like. It was. I think it might have been the Cowboys and the 49ers. It was a big game. But we were all at my granddad's house after conference watching it with him.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] So Joseph B. Wirthlin watched NFL football on Sunday?

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:09] Oh, yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] That's awesome.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:12] He was a big football fan, and so we're all watching football at his house. And then there's all these Mormons that

John Dehlin [00:54:21] think it's evil to watch sports on Sunday.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:24] Yeah. A week later, a seminary teacher is telling me that I can't. And I was laughing because I was like, whatever, you can't be serious. And so I just said, well, that's funny. I just watched a football game with. With my granddad last week on Sunday. On Sunday. So. So.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Well, that must have been embarrassing for him.

Greg Gerritsen [00:54:52] Oh, he. It was. It was. That was a touchy experience because he did not like. He did not like how that lesson turned out. So, I mean, I. I learned. I learned that there's. There's a time and place to share those things, and that probably was not the right. Or.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] It was the right time.

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:16] Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of People in my class like that. Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] But it's not part of the code, right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:55:22] Right. It's not. It's definitely not part of the code. And especially that wasn't like the seminary teacher felt embarrassed. And I probably shouldn't have embarrassed him like that. I should have probably handled it differently. But as a 16, 17 year old kid, you're not going to do everything perfect.

Personal Memories of Grandpa and Grandma Wirthlin

John Dehlin [00:55:49] Talk about memories that you have of time with your grandpa and grandma or observations you made of your grandpa and grandma prior to, let's just say your mission. Is there, Are there any stories good, good or hard or bad or anything in terms of like what you witnessed or what your relationship with them was like?

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:14] So my granddad and I shared the same birthday. So June 11th was always his day that he made me feel like I was his only grandson.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] So he had how many grandkids he

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:31] had over 40, I think 42. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] So that would be for a month. He would have had to, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [00:56:37] Oh, man, it was he. Yeah, I mean, his time and he traveled a lot, so there was a lot of times where, I mean, when I was really little, he was in Germany for an extended time. He was traveling to Hawaii a lot. Poor guy. But no, there was a lot of times where we only got a couple times a year in my early years. And July was, was his time off. That's typically when they get time at home.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Apostles get a month off basically in July. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:26] Yeah. Okay. And it may have changed, I mean, everything from 2008 forward. I have no idea how it's done now.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:34] But up until he passed away in 2008. Yeah, he. He passed away in December of 2008.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] So you know how it was before 2008 for an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:43] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] And he would get July's off.

Greg Gerritsen [00:57:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] And for those who don't know, once you're called as an apostle, you join the quorum of the 12 and you're there for life. You're there until you die. And then it's a seniority system where you work your way up based on how long you've been an apostle.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] But you're there for life. Even if you're 90, 95, you're still an apostle and you still have all the expectations and responsibilities.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:10] Yeah. You just have to outlive each other to work your way up.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] But there's no like your golden years of being a full time grandpa that doesn't exist.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:22] No. No. So like most of my memories of him are going up to his cabin in Midway.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] He had a cabin in Midway.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:31] He had a cabin.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Lots of apostles have cabins in Midway or Hebrew.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:34] And. And this cabin in Midway is not a luxury cabin. Oh, it was. It was a piece of work. We. It was. It was old. It was pretty cheap, and it had mice in it.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] Oh, fun.

Greg Gerritsen [00:58:54] So it was. It was a place that we didn't want to spend the night because it was so old, but it was something. It was tradition. We always went, like, 4th of July, July 24th.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] Like, all the kids and grandkids beat up old cabin. Every.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Where would you stay?

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:19] Oh, we would just stay for, like, lunch. Okay, so it was like a day trip. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:25] Yes. Just a day trip. Some of the other cousins would. I mean, we would all just meet up there for a meal.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [00:59:34] But that was kind of thing. That was where he could be himself and he could. He could joke. It was. We would talk football. I mean, most of my cousins. The. Most of the guy cousins would play football. That was just kind of the family culture. Yes, family culture was football. And so it was. It was a football family. And it was. That was something that was talked about more than anything at those events.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] Fun.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:15] So that was kind of what.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] So did. Did. Did your grandpa have a favorite NFL pro team? I know He. He played for the Utes.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:23] He played for the Utes. That was his team.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Was he offensive lineman?

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:27] He was a running back. He. So he played quarterback in high school.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Where? At East.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:32] At East High.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:00:34] And then he was a scholarship athlete back in the. I think it was the late 20s, early 30s. But then he went on a mission to Germany and Switzerland, which is where the Wirthlin family is from. And he was there as Hitler was taking over most of Europe.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] He was on a mission in Germany in the late 30s, while.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:07] The early 30s.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] In the early. Early 30s. Okay, got it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:10] Early 30s while Germany was being taken over by.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:15] The Nazis. So.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:17] Yeah. So he. He was.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] Rise of the Third Reich, basically.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:01:21] Yeah. So he. He spent most of his time in Switzerland, which was very fortunate because it was. It was a really rough time then. But so when he came back, he played. He played football for Utah and he played running back. And was he good? Yeah, I mean, I never watched him, but, you know, so. No, he. I. I did. I did look up a lot of his stuff from when he was playing, and. And I think I saw. I saw one clip of when he played, and it was pretty cool to see that.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] Oh, they have, like, a video clip of him running.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:06] It was Like a montage of all the football articles and. Oh, so, okay, so clips and stuff. Yeah, so it was, it was pretty cool. And one. There was one Utah game that we went to where they had some highlights. Not highlights, but some people that played with him and they did.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] Alumni.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:41] Yeah. A recognition for him. When I was on my mission. They actually retired his jersey, but they still use his number.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:02:51] He was number four for Utah, so it was, it was pretty cool to. To learn about his playing days.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] So I have to ask, what did he think of byu?

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:04] He. He was not a fan of BYU football. He was. He was a Utah guy. He. I mean, he would go to. He would go to BYU football games because that's, that's, that's where, where the, the church's focus was on. But he was a fan of football, but not a fan of BYU football. So he, when it was, when it was byu, Utah football, you knew where his allegiance was. He was. He was decked out in Utah football gear.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] So.

Greg Gerritsen [01:03:45] And. And like, a lot of the apostles go to the BYU football games, and it's more of a social setting for. For them.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] Isn't there probably some luxury box that they're all sitting at. Did you ever go with him to those games?

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:01] I did once and it was, it was. It was entertaining in the fact that he was there to watch the game. Like, he loved watching football more than anything. That was his release, and so he wanted to watch the game. He didn't care who was there. He was there to watch football, not to socialize. And a lot of people were there to socialize and to rub shoulders with each other. And that's not why he went there. He was going to watch a football game, and that was like, the game is what was the attraction for him.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] Yeah. So I think I remember you telling me in email some stories about other apostles that you bumped into during some of those games. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:04:58] Yeah. And like, at halftime when, when you get snacks or whatever, they're. They're there and they're. They're kind of not paying attention to the game. And so it was, it was very entertaining to see. Like, Like, I love the fact that he was a football fan because I was a football fan.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:26] And. And like, I, I really didn't care who was there. I was, I was excited that I was there with my, like, with my grandpa and. Because I didn't have many, many experiences with just him and me.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] You didn't?

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:44] No, I did not.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] In your life.

Greg Gerritsen [01:05:47] I can, I can count probably on Both hands. How many times? It was just he and I. Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] So that's, I mean, and that's got to be number one because he had so many grandkids, but number two, because they keep those dudes so busy. Right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:02] Yeah, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] I don't mean to tell you that. That's just my impression.

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:06] No, that's, that's an entirely true. My 11th birthday, he. He pulled me aside and we had a one on one moment and that was pretty much the first one on one time that I had with him.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Do you remember what he said?

Greg Gerritsen [01:06:32] Yeah, well, it was on our birthday and it was at my cousin's wedding. And he said he had been gone for a long time and he said, I've been thinking about you a lot and I just want you to know that I really, I really appreciate you. And he gave me a birthday present and he said, now your grandma has a birthday present for you as well, but don't tell her that I gave you one. And that was, that was the first time that I had a one on one.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] What'd he give you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:07:17] Like, he gave me an extra $50 and. Which was more than, like, that was more than my siblings ever got. And so it really made me feel really special because I knew how busy he was. He had a lot going on and he had a chair when we visit him in his house that he would sit in and a lot of times when he was talking, he would start falling asleep because he was, he'd work so long of hours. So there was that time and then when I was, I think when I was. The next time, when I was ordained to the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] When you were 12?

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:11] When I was 12, he spent some one on one time with me and then not again Till I was 18 and I was a student at Westminster

John Dehlin [01:08:25] College six years later.

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:27] Yeah, I mean, I had interactions with him in that timeframe, but it wasn't just me and him.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Yeah. Like, I just, there's, there's a perception among many that they live, you know, for those who are kind of like not comfortable with the royalty aspects of being an apostle, there are many that would want to emphasize the privilege and, you know, the income or the fame or the glory. But, but I talked to you about this kind of before the show. There's probably a lot of sacrifice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:08:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] And, and a lot of, you know, the fact that he's going to do this until he dies, is going to be able to be a normal grandpa and may not enjoy the limelight. There's probably a lot of Downsides to being an apostle, especially maybe for your grandpa's particular personality. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Greg Gerritsen [01:09:15] Yeah. I mean, he loved, he loved family. He was a very devout family guy, but his position didn't allow him to spend the time with us that he wanted to. He would have loved to make it to all of our football games, but it just wasn't a reality that he could do that. And I mean, I think he made it to two of my games and that's the first time I ever saw him with a tear in his eye was that he, he genuinely was sad that he could not be there. And that was, I think, really devastating to him that he couldn't be with us as, as family, as much as he would have liked to.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] What was your position? So

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:20] I played quarterback. I played kind of every position in high school.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] You were kind of a utility player?

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:26] I was a utility player.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] Which high school?

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:29] Weber High School. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] So you were you viewed as like a good athlete, a strong athlete?

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:36] I was, I would say I was a serviceable athlete. Like, I, I played, I, I didn't play varsity quarterback. I played varsity wide receiver and quarter cornerback and special teams.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] Does that mean you were probably fast? You were pretty fast.

Greg Gerritsen [01:10:52] Yeah. So I was, I, I got faster as I got older and I was able to keep up with people, but I was, I was never the fastest.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah, but you're pretty athletic.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] And multi purpose.

Greg Gerritsen [01:11:08] So I was, I was. Okay. Okay. So my, My granddad always loved talking with me about the positions I played because he played quarterback in high school and when I was, I was played. I played quarterback as a sophomore and junior in high school and he loved that. And some of our, some of my favorite conversations with him was about football because it just, it brought a smile to his face and it really brought him down to my level. And I'm not saying that I wanted him down on my level. He brought himself to my level and he made sure that he and I had a connection. So he was a really good granddad in that way. Like, he, he really wanted us to know that he cared about us. And my grandma as well, she, she was able to come to a lot more than my granddad, so I had a lot more interactions with her because there was a lot of times when he would travel alone to things. And so I had, I had plenty of interactions with her. And she was just, she was just an amazing person. I mean, she played tennis till the day she died, and it was like she was, we thought she was going to live till she was 120. Just how healthy she was.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] She was an athlete too.

Greg Gerritsen [01:12:52] Yeah, she was. She played tennis and she, she just went a million miles an hour and was just. She was just an amazing woman and someone that I just like. She was just on such a high pedestal that you never wanted to disappoint her. And I mean, she and my granddad were the reasons why I didn't. I wasn't a downright rebellious person is because of the relationship I had with them.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] You loved them.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:25] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] And wanted to.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:26] Oh yeah, I did. I did not want to disappoint them at all. But like there were, there were times when I definitely. The rebellious side of me definitely came out.

Perks and Pressures of Being an Apostle's Grandchild

John Dehlin [01:13:40] So let me ask, I have this. So there's kind of pre conference center, General conference where there's the tabernacle.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] Which was smaller and really old school. Really pioneer but.

Greg Gerritsen [01:13:55] But Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Beautiful and powerful. And I remember attending general conference or listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir while the conference was still held in the tabernacle. And then there's kind of post tabernacle kind of conference center era of Mormonism with this massive, mega, mega conference center that seats. Yeah, 15,000. But I know enough about. I worked at church headquarters for a year, so I know enough about like the administration building and that the general authorities have their special cafeteria and that during general conference the families of the apostles would oftentimes come to general conference. And I imagine during the breaks all of you going to some special place and eating the special catered food and like having special access at general conference kind of behind the scenes as if you're royalty now. That's all in my head.

Greg Gerritsen [01:14:51] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Was there anything to that? What? Did you ever attend general conference pre or post conference center while your dad was an apostle? Because this is, this is the most, this is the most royalty like aspect of Mormonism is like twice a year the whole world is watching general conference in each of the apostles will give a talk. It's a two day thing. And like all of the Mormon world is watching and it's the big show.

Greg Gerritsen [01:15:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] And I'm just wondering what it's like to be the grandchild of an apostle during the big show. Or maybe I'm making all that up and there's nothing to it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:15:28] Yeah. So. So pre conference center, it was, it was a chaotic time on Temple Square at the tabernacle. I mean that was especially as a young like we. I couldn't even as. As an apostle's Grandkid, you couldn't go in unless you were eight. Okay. So even when he. He was speaking, if. If we. If you weren't eight and you didn't have a ticket, you could not get in.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:16:06] And with a family as big as his, we weren't all allowed to go down to that special. Event stuff. So general conference was still just kind of a chaotic. Like, every. Every family for themselves type event. What. The session that he spoke, our family got more tickets to that session. But at the tabernacle, it was very limited. And so there was a limited amount of tickets that the family got. And so it was generally one or two siblings would go in or a parent would. Would go into the sessions, and we'd all be out of the tabernacle. Waiting for the session to end. And so a lot of general conference, I remember walking around the temple square in the throngs of people just wondering why we were. Why we were there when we could have been at home on our couch.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] So you weren't, like, during the breaks, having pie in the special cafeteria with your apostle grandparents?

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:37] No, definitely not.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:40] That's different than I imagined.

Greg Gerritsen [01:17:41] So that once the conference center was opened up, a few of our uncles and aunts were able to go do that, but with a family as big as ours was, especially the extended family, they can't have 50. 50 people of. And with once. Once you started having cousins marry and have their own kids, then it was just way too many. And so you can't invite one and not invite all. So only a couple people were invited. And I think it was just my aunts and uncles only. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] Okay. So not what I thought.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:30] Yeah. So we were. We were never allowed backstage.

John Dehlin [01:18:35] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:35] Per se. So.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] So were there perks to being the grandchild of a moral apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:41] So you got.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] And I don't mean just general conference. I just generally, like, you hear about access to rental cars or, like, tuition breaks at byu, which is funny in your. In your case, but, like.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] So what are the perks of being the grandchild of a Mormon apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:56] So.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Or are there any.

Greg Gerritsen [01:18:58] To be honest with you, I didn't see many perks, really. So we had no special rental cars? No. Nothing like that. We.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] No flights on corporate jets?

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:10] Oh, no, no. The only time I've been on corporate jets is for my career.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] Oh, because you're a pilot?

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:16] Yeah, because I'm a pilot. But. But no. Like, I. We. We heard about him going on the.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] The Huntsman.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:26] The Huntsman jet.

John Dehlin [01:19:27] That's A thing. Right.

Greg Gerritsen [01:19:28] The Huntsman jet is a thing. He, he went to China with President Hinckley back in, I think it was 1997 or something. And we, we heard about that and we, we were all amazed that he got to do that. But no, like we, the, the only perks that we got were tickets to events at the tabernacle and the, and the conference center.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] So like if David Archuleta singing or Christine Christina Chenoweth or whatever.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:01] I mean James Taylor, you could.

Greg Gerritsen [01:20:03] So yeah. And when I went to Westminster College, my, my grandma would give us tickets to things like that. And one time my mom sent my little brother down to go to one of those events during the Olympics with, with me. And instead of going to that, I had gotten tickets to the medals ceremony. And so we told my mom that we were going to the conference center when we went to the medal ceremony and we saw the Goo Goo Dolls in concert instead. And to this day my mom still doesn't know that we ditched that. So. But that like really tickets to, to things to church events was the real perk. And other than that, like I, I don't, I mean BYU football tickets, that was one perk that you got occasionally. But most, most of my family were, most of my extended family were Ute fans anyways, so that wasn't, that wasn't much of a perk to most of the, most of the extended family.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] Okay. Yeah. Because I think I mentioned the perception of royalty.

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] And so you wonder what about tuition breaks?

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:28] Do you know?

John Dehlin [01:21:29] Did you ever hear about that?

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:30] I never heard about that. And maybe that's because I made it very clear to my parents that I was not going to go to byu. So if there was a perk, I was not made known of what that was.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:21:47] And it was never, that was never something that was offered or publicly talked about. So I was never under the impression that there was a perk there.

John Dehlin [01:22:00] Okay, nice. Interesting.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:03] My sister was the only sibling that I had that went there and she was on a full ride scholarship for academics.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:11] So I don't know if she had any kind of perk or not, but I'd be surprised if there was.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] This is a totally random question that I'm asking on the spot, but Richard Wirthlin was a super famous pollster.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:25] Who was really instrumental in the success of Ronald Reagan in the Republican.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] Administration in the 80s.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] That's your uncle, right? That's.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:33] Yeah, that's my grandfather.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] Brother.

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:35] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Do you know about him and do you Know anything about his influence?

Greg Gerritsen [01:22:41] Well, so every, every Christmas time we would have a get together at his house and he was, he was the wealthy uncle. So that's. I mean, he threw great parties. And that's what it was. A Worthland post Christmas party where we usually watched the Holiday Bowl. Cause that's usually what day was on.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] You was into football too?

Greg Gerritsen [01:23:09] Everybody was. Worthland's in football was almost as synonymous with Wirthland and the church. It was like, I don't know which one was more important, but the lines were blurred quite a bit. So it didn't matter who was playing. We watched football. So that was, that was just what we did together. It didn't matter what was going on. That would always break the ice. And that's when we would have great conversations with. And it was. We were a normal family when we were watching football. So I think that's the escape from the, the pressures of the calling and, and that brought out the human factor, which I think was really healthy for the family to see. He's still a grandpa and he's still just. He still has his likes and dislikes and he's human. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Yeah. So, okay, so Richard Wirthlin, super powerful, wealthy guy.

Greg Gerritsen [01:24:28] Yeah. And, and, and with the family as big as we had, I really didn't get to know him that well.

John Dehlin [01:24:36] Sure.

Greg Gerritsen [01:24:36] And I tell my later years, a few years ago, I, I worked with a second cousin of mine and like, we barely knew each other.

John Dehlin [01:24:52] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:24:53] So, yeah, we didn't, we didn't get to know them that well.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] Sure. Let's talk about your testimony. In high school, did you, did you always have a testimony? Did you ever question your testimony? Did you try to develop a testimony what was going on spiritually inside of you in your high school years? I don't want to jump over any other stories you want to tell, but, like, you know, I definitely want to ask about that.

Personal Testimony and Going Through the Motions

Greg Gerritsen [01:25:21] Let's see. I would say I was probably pretty average kid. Like, I, I wouldn't say I was very spiritual. I would say I was just going through the motions. There were times I'd say the most spiritual moment I had was I had. I had been playing football and I had a pretty bad concussion. It was a concussion that was keeping me out for close to three weeks. And I mean, at that point we didn't have the concussion protocol that we had now, but I couldn't even stand being in a. A room with a light on.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:26:11] And so I, I had pledged with everyone to like, do something. And my Granddad offered to give me a blessing and like, that was the only time that I've ever had a priesthood blessing that's actually felt like it's done something. And for me that was a sign.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] What happened?

Greg Gerritsen [01:26:38] I just.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] So what were you. Is it headaches? Was it just.

Greg Gerritsen [01:26:41] I had bad headaches. I had, I was very sensitive to light and like, that was, that was a time where I felt like he had special power because I had, I had, I wouldn't say miraculous healing, but I had an improvement in symptoms. The next day I was, I was starting to improve and I don't know at the time I marked it off as he was. He was the reason why I had improvement. So that's like, that was the basis of my spirituality is basically that healing, that healing. Because before then I, I didn't take much of it serious to say. Like, I mean, I, I was always in like deacons, quorum presidents, teachers assist teachers, quorum presidencies. I was never the president, at least I don't remember being that. If I was. I didn't really take it serious. I did it. I was, I. I went home teaching with my dad, but I was never excited to go. I was never, I was never the gung ho. A Mormon boy.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:08] So.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] But that was bolstering to your testimony to have that blessing from your grandpa.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:13] Yeah, yeah. I did think that there was something to it.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:28:17] So that was. And, and I always. He would bear his testimony to us as a family from time to time. And it wasn't, it usually wasn't something that was a normal occasion. It was a special occasion when he did that. And it was usually a very heartfelt testimony and it was always focused on Jesus Christ. So you always felt like he had a special testimony of that. So I always just took him for his word and I felt like he was genuine and that he knew that. So I believe that. So that's where the basis of my testimony was. I wouldn't say I read the Book of Mormon through till I was on my mission. I just kind of took his word for it. And I just, I knew that like the decision for me to go on a mission was made before. Like I did it. I didn't feel like it was a choice.

Bishop Father, Teen Years, and Dating Dynamics

John Dehlin [01:29:28] So really quickly you had mentioned your dad being your bishop in your teen years.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] And we always talk about kind of like guilt and shame and even law of chastity kind of stuff and how sometimes integral that is to the development of a Mormon, of Mormon commitment. The shame and the guilt but then the repentance and the bishop. And is there anything you want to share about kind of premission, that sort of stuff?

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] And bring. Bring your dad in if you want.

Greg Gerritsen [01:29:58] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:59] Or not.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:00] So, like, in my dad. Well, first of all, my mom and dad, like, parenting wise, they were afraid to talk about anything. Law of chastity wise, so sex related? Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] No talk about sex.

Greg Gerritsen [01:30:15] There was no talks about that. Like, that was off the table. And so then for my dad, when he became bishop, to want to interview me about those things as a kid, I'm like, if you don't want to tell me about that beforehand, why am I going to want to tell you about what I'm doing in that arena? So I avoided bishop interviews with him, and I would just sneak out of church and I would go home rather than talk to him. And so he never once got to have a real interview with me. Because when he. When he would start, when he would get me in the bishop's office, I would just say, all right, Dad, I gotta go, because I did not want to have that. And I want him to ask you

John Dehlin [01:31:15] about, like, porn and masturbation. And that. Was that the main fear? Were there other fears?

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:19] He didn't want to ask me about what I did with girls.

John Dehlin [01:31:22] Oh, okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:24] He didn't want to ask me about any. Well, he wanted to ask me about those things, but he didn't want specifics. And so it was so awkward that I just got out of there because

John Dehlin [01:31:36] I was like, we're not having this conversation.

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:39] Yeah, that's exactly what I said. And I was like, I'll have another bishop when I'm 18.

John Dehlin [01:31:47] Oh, wow.

Greg Gerritsen [01:31:48] So. And then when I was 18, he was still a bishop in my home ward, and I went to. When I was at Westminster, my bishop at Westminster was a pretty. I wouldn't say he was a liberal guy, but as far as the rules, he was very liberal with the rules. And he asked me why I wasn't doing more or what?

John Dehlin [01:32:15] Doing more what?

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:16] Doing more. As far as law of chastity, like, with. With girls, he's like. He's like, go ahead, experiment. Experiment. Exactly. Yeah, he was. He was a very. I don't think the church would appreciate what he was saying. So it was. It was actually really refreshing because he. He made me feel like. Like, you're golden.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:44] And so he just wanted people in the church as a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] That's good.

Greg Gerritsen [01:32:52] Yeah. And he actually knew my granddad, and they were friends, and he didn't realize that I was his grandson until I was working at my granddad's house and he drove by, asked what I was doing there, and I was like, oh, I'm just working out my. I'm just doing yard work for my grandparents. And he's like, oh, this is your grandparent.

John Dehlin [01:33:15] Oh, nice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:17] So, so then it was like two weeks later I was called into the elders quorum presidency.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Is that how it works?

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] Is there a connection between church callings and people's knowledge of your family connection?

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:32] I've always wondered that.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] Well, what do you think?

Greg Gerritsen [01:33:37] I would like to say no, but I would probably be in error because my experience is you always are told that you're going to have a calling once people know that, and they always expect you to have higher callings once they, once they find out that you're related to an apostle. And then they're disappointed when they find out that you're. Oh, you're just a nursery leader. I'm like, just a nursery. I was like, yeah. So that. My experience is that callings are definitely associated to relations.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] Okay. And that. That would make sense. Okay, so did you experience guilt and shame as a teen? You know, stuff you didn't want to talk to your dad about, or were you just not really hung up on that sort of thing?

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:45] I, I definitely, I definitely had relationships with girls to spite my dad because

John Dehlin [01:34:53] he, he'd make out or whatever.

Greg Gerritsen [01:34:56] Yeah. I mean, I mean, I never, I never had sex with girls growing up, but I would definitely, I would definitely kiss girls to spite my dad because he was really against it.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] He didn't want you kissing girls, right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:17] He didn't want us kissing girls. He didn't like. He wanted us to, he wanted us to not date serious, have, have steady dating.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] And that's. I don't know, maybe that's a Utah thing. I. Growing up as a Mormon kid, I was. My parents didn't care if I dated. So that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:34] I think it's.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] That feels on the extreme side of things.

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:37] Oh yeah, he was on. Yeah, definitely. Like, I mean, it's a case by case basis on. I mean, because I had friends that they had no rules. Other friends had. Had soft rules like it. And my dad, he was over the top on that.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] But so for you, kissing a girl was an act of rebellion?

Greg Gerritsen [01:35:58] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Okay, so you did it anyway.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:02] Yeah. Okay. It was. And it was. I mean, there was one time he had some friends, friends from Pennsylvania over, and this was a close friend of his. And dad, if you ever listen to this, this will probably make you really mad. But his friend had two twin daughters, and they were kind of rebellious, and I was rebellious at the time. So I kissed both of them in our backyard while they were inside meeting.

John Dehlin [01:36:44] On the same day.

Greg Gerritsen [01:36:45] On the same day. And just to spite my dad, I knew that that would upset him more than anything. So that's what I did. And they were funny girls. They were. They were really cool. And it was actually their idea. Their idea because my dad made an awkward comment to them about not kissing me. And so that's how socially awkward that conversation is. That topic was to him. Because I think it. It had roots in his. His past growing up with. With his dad. That. That was a concern of his for his kids. And so that was just like, it was. It was such a taboo subject that it was ridiculous to me. And so that was a rebellious side of. Of mine.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] I mean, that's a theme that would be really fun to explore. I remember dating Mary Holland, Jeffrey Holland's daughter, while I was at byu.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] And she would. She joked to me about how her dad. I think she told me her dad would watch sports on Sunday and how he would like Billy Joel. She liked Billy Joel. He liked Billy Joel. You got the sense that she wanted to let me know and others know that, like, we're not the Molly Mormon family.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:28] And we don't follow all the rules. But, but, but she never took it to make me feel like she was like a bad girl or rebellious. But in my mind, I've heard. I've heard stories about children of apostles that were rebellious.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:44] And I've always thought about that dynamic of there being so much pressure, so much expectation that it would often push the children and grandchildren of apostles in the other direction of what would be expected.

Greg Gerritsen [01:38:58] Right. And there's definitely that. And everybody is unique in how they. They handle that. Those pressures. Because there is the pressure of living up to that name and the expectations, like that seminary teacher, that he placed expectations on you before he even met. Before he even met me. And so those expectations, I was like, there's no way I'm going to live up to these.

John Dehlin [01:39:30] And

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:32] it's so unreal that I'm not even going to try to live up to those.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Or maybe I'll even try and.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] Undermine or. Or sabotage.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:44] Yeah. And. And some.

John Dehlin [01:39:46] To get out from under those types of expectations.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:48] Right?

John Dehlin [01:39:48] Is that.

Greg Gerritsen [01:39:49] Yeah. And like some, some parents of. Of kids that I was with, like, they. They would automatically cast judgment because of who my granddad was. And sometimes that was a great thing and sometimes that was a bad thing. Like there were some girls that their parents wanted them to date me so much that because of who I was related to that it became so awkward that I couldn't even have a conversation with them because of things they're parents said to me. Because I was like, I, I don't want to be around that. I don't want to have that expectation on me.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] So parents wanting their kids to marry into an apostles family.

Greg Gerritsen [01:40:45] Yeah, definitely. And. And then there was parents that.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] You didn't like that. No, because I would, that, you know, my, from my observation, man, if there were a ton of parents who, who were trying to get their kids to, you know, if they're cute girls and the parents are trying to get the cute girls to date me, like what's not to love about? That gives you more choice.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:08] Yeah, to a degree. But then also the expectations, like if you're with my daughter, you better act this way. And if you're not acting this way, then you're a failure.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] And then disappointment.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:20] Yeah. So like was you, you lose no matter what what happens. And so you don't want to be loved.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] I guess you don't want to be loved for who your grandpa is. That's not love.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:41:37] And then you don't want to live up to those standards or how could you ever possibly live up to those standards.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:42] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:41:42] It's like again, it's the objectification of somebody.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:47] Right, right. Exactly. And. And it's not allowing someone to be their self.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] Human. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:54] And you have to, you have to allow a kid to be a kid.

John Dehlin [01:41:58] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:41:59] And anytime you have expectations for someone that they're not going to meet, you're going to be disappointed in that person. And I, I was really good at bringing out that disappointment in people. So I mean, there were people that I got along great with that had expectations for me. But if you showed me that you expected something that I wasn't going to do, I was really good at making a comment to let that person know that you can't force me to be like that. And so I was really, I was really cautious with adults as I was a kid. If, if they, if they immediately went to my granddad's name and tried to connect with me through that, it, it threw up red flags for me.

John Dehlin [01:43:21] Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think it might be time to talk about your, your mission experience. Is there anything else you want to talk about? Your high school years prior to, prior to your mission? Well, your faith development, your Grandpa, you know, dynamics. Anything.

Choosing Westminster College Before the Mission

Greg Gerritsen [01:43:43] One of the, one of the key things. So before my mission, I decided to go to Westminster College.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] Football scholarship or not?

Greg Gerritsen [01:43:52] No, it was. I.

John Dehlin [01:43:56] Why not? The U. Like that's almost seems blasphemous.

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:00] Well, so. And I chose Westminster because of the dynamics of Westminster. It was, it was a non LDS school and the, the ratio for LDS students to non LDS students was probably 1.1 LDS student for every 10. 10 students. And it was, it was a. I lived in a co ed dorm and my dad, it was exact opposite of what he would have chosen for me. And so it was my way to, to really say I can choose my own life.

John Dehlin [01:44:50] Oh, his independence. But like if you loved your grandpa and the U was like his baby.

Greg Gerritsen [01:44:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] It would have been like also departing from kind of.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:01] Because family heritage and your grandpa's passion. Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:04] But I also went to Westminster because of its aviation program.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:09] I knew I wanted to be a. Become a pilot.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] Got it.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:11] And they had a. I, I was trying to choose college that had an aviation program, but that, it also checked the boxes of not fitting into the LDS mold for my dad.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:45:26] Because at that point, my dad was my bishop and he was super controlling spiritually. Like he wanted us to appear as a perfect LDS family. And so I chose that school specifically for those reasons. And I mean, it was a financial, it's expensive burden for me to go there because I was only on a partial scholarship and it was expensive for

John Dehlin [01:45:59] me and at least 20 grand a year, Right?

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:02] Well, at the time it was $6,000

John Dehlin [01:46:04] a semester, so that's 12 grand a year tuition.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:09] And I, I. And then on top of that, I had flight school as well.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:14] Which was. I had no idea what I was getting into with that. And so I left that year and I was in a financial mess.

John Dehlin [01:46:22] So it wasn't like your parents were rich and they could pay for it all.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:25] Oh, no, no. I, I was, I was taking out loans and I was paying for. Oh, I was paying for it all myself.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] So this idea that like grandchildren of apostles are all wealthy. Not true.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:35] I would have love that to be true. My granddad, he was never a wealthy guy.

John Dehlin [01:46:44] So yeah, he was a. Like, talk about his profession.

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:47] He was a butcher. He owned a meat packing shop. It was called Worthland's Meats. And he.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Where, where was it?

Greg Gerritsen [01:46:58] It was just here in Salt Lake, I think. I don't know the exact address of it, but he didn't live far from his shop. And my mom worked in the butcher shop when she was little, all of her siblings did. I know when my mom and dad got married, my dad delivered meat for the company and it was just a family run business and like the, they sold it. But I don't think they ever really made a lot of money with the sell of the company because we never had the toys. The extended family didn't have a lot of toys, expensive cars, any of that. Generally most of my aunts and uncles were pretty paycheck to paycheck people. There's a couple that did well financially, but most of them were, I'd say, average middle class families.

John Dehlin [01:48:08] Yeah. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:48:09] And so like me going to college, I knew that I was going to pay for it myself. And I chose a very expensive college to spite my dad because of him being my bishop and kind of the pressure that he was putting on me to be that spiritual person that at the time I just wasn't that person. And so living in a co ed dorm and going to a school like that and I signed up for Bible study and I'll always remember that Methodist preacher that taught the Bible class. She was amazing. Yeah. And that's another thing. Like when I told my dad about that, he couldn't have been more shocked that that's what I was doing.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] I did have taking a Bible class from a woman Methodist preacher.

Greg Gerritsen [01:49:16] Right. And they had an institute program at Westminster, but I was so busy I hardly went to that. But the Bible class, that had a huge effect on me because we studied the Bible and she did not interpret the Bible literally. And that really stuck with me because it was a very like these are stories to learn from, not to take as factual.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] It's historical.

Greg Gerritsen [01:49:57] Yeah. And that was, I had never, I had never thought about Bible stories like that. And so she made me think outside of the box. As far as Mormons go, did that

John Dehlin [01:50:10] make you question your testimony? And this is pre mission.

Greg Gerritsen [01:50:14] It was pre mission. And there was a lot of things that I was just coasting along as a young Mormon. Like I never looked at a lot of things. So she, I think she knew what she was doing with exposing me to things and she did a great job. She made me think. And so I still was going to go on a mission. But when I went on my mission and I started learning more about the church, everything that she had taught me was coming into my mind because that was the first, that was the first time that I really paid attention in a, in a religious class was in her Bible study because she made it so exciting.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] So so list maybe. I, I, I had a similar experience, not because of who my teacher was, but because I read the New Testament and I noticed some problems in high school. I'm curious, like three to five of the problems you would have learned about that would have challenged your Mormon orthodoxy or, you know, can you remember?

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:30] Yeah, well, so I can give you

John Dehlin [01:51:32] examples, but if you, you know.

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:33] Well, I mean, she talked about Jonah and the well, and she also talked about Moses.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] What about them?

Greg Gerritsen [01:51:45] Well, she, so Joan, on the well, she, she said, now how many people think this is an actual story? And like, I was, I was so shocked by the question that I was like, I better not raise my hand. So, I mean, and nobody raised their hand. And I was, I was in disbelief. I was like, oh, I was like, I got to see what's, see where this is going. So, and then did she answer the

John Dehlin [01:52:16] question and say from her perspective, what?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:18] Yeah, she said, this is just a myth with a lesson. And I had never thought about that. And I had always just been taught that Jonah and the well was a real life story. So, I mean, things like that.

John Dehlin [01:52:39] You're going to give another example?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:40] Oh, yeah. So Moses and Abraham and

John Dehlin [01:52:47] Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:48] Yeah, all of that.

John Dehlin [01:52:49] What about it?

Greg Gerritsen [01:52:51] She just, she said, are these real people? And I had never thought about any of that.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] Did she give evidence as to why they might not be real people?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:06] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] Did she?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:07] She did.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] What was her evidence? Do you remember?

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:09] Even I can't what her evidence was. Like, I can't even remember. It was, it was such a foreign concept to me that I, I don't really remember the specifics. Yeah, I do remember her talking about David and, and David and Goliath. David and Goliath and then how David had, how he sent off later when he was the king, how he sent off the, Oh, I can't remember the, the husband of.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] Yeah, Uriah. Like Sheba.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:47] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] She sent him off to war.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] He was killed because he wanted, he wanted Bathsheba.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:56] Right?

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Yeah. And I may, it may not be.

Greg Gerritsen [01:53:59] And she, she brought up that, and she brought up polygamy. And she, I know she did that lesson specifically for me because I was the only les person in the class. And that got me thinking more than anything else because she, she said, now when is it okay to send someone off so you can marry someone else's wife?

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Send someone off to their death.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:28] Yeah. And she said, send someone off to their death or on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:35] And at that point, I had no idea what she Was talking about.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] There's some Joseph Smith references there, right? Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [01:54:44] And so she prepared me for a lot. And so. I don't remember her name. I don't remember. But I'll never forget her face. I'll never forget how kind she was to me and how she treated me and how she prepared me to learn all these things.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] When you say kind to you, what do you.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:06] Oh, she. She would talk to me after class.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] Because you'd ask questions.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:09] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] You were concerned or curious?

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:11] I would. I, I appreciated how much she took an interest in me as a person. She. She was very genuine and she was interested in what I was going into and wanted. She wanted me to succeed in life. And so she was a great teacher and. And just a genuine person.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] Do you have a sense she knew who your grandpa was kind of thing or.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:41] I, I would be surprised if she had any clue.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] So she just cared about you?

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] That must have been refreshing.

Greg Gerritsen [01:55:48] Oh, it was. It was so great because my. My experience in the. With the church was that as soon as people found out that I was a grandson of an apostle, I was treated differently. And so I really longed just to be a person.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] She treated you that way? And she.

Greg Gerritsen [01:56:12] She treated me that way. And so I naturally gravitated towards that. And so fast forward. So I had that experience in college. I had a great year of college. It was such a good experience for me as an individual. And it really made like I was really dreading going on the mission because I was enjoying aviation going into that as a. As a career. And I also loved the friends that I had made at Westminster. And so. But I was looking forward to going on a mission and not having people know that I was the grandson of an apostle because it was a chance for me to control how much people knew about me because I would be on my own. I wouldn't have any family saying anything. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have anyone that I knew there with me. So I was. I was hopeful that not a single person would know and I could just be a normal member of the church. Yeah. So

Being Set Apart by Grandpa and Meeting Church Leaders

John Dehlin [01:57:38] I'm wondering how that goes.

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:39] Yeah. So I show up. Where'd you get called? I. I went to the England Manchester Mission.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:46] And I was excited because I wasn't going to go to the Provo MTC. I went straight to the Preston England MTC.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] What year this was?

Greg Gerritsen [01:57:57] 2002 to 2004.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:00] And my mission was just full of stories.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] Did your. Did your granddad set you apart as a missionary or he did, yeah. Was that special?

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:10] I mean, I was. I mean, we. So the night before I went to the mtc, I. We drove down and went to. Went to the church office building. He set me off. He set me apart as a missionary in his office.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] That's fancy.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:32] Yeah. Church headquarters. That's. And I. I don't know. I did. I did not feel like I was ready to be a missionary, but who is?

John Dehlin [01:58:45] I have to ask you two things quickly, not to derail your story. Did you ever meet any prophets prior to going on your mission? And if so.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:53] Oh, yeah. So, I mean, we met all of them.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] Oh, all of them.

Greg Gerritsen [01:58:57] Yeah. I mean, so President Hinckley and my. My granddad are cousins, and through what? Bitner. So Bittner. So Gordon Bittner Hinckley and Joseph Bittner Wirthlin.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:12] And so the Bittner reunions, we would always get together, and there was always that. That interaction where you had President Hinckley and my granddad at the same place at the same family reunion, and then, like, at various.

John Dehlin [01:59:34] So it's no accident that they're related in terms of possibly his. Your granddad's selection as an apostle. He's a. He's a cousin of. Of Gordon Meagley.

Greg Gerritsen [01:59:44] Yeah. So my granddad was called to be an apostle when Spencer W. Kimball died. And I have no idea what went into that, but, yeah, there's. There's a lot of family connections throughout all of the church. So I know that. I don't know. I don't know how. How interconnected that relationship is, but it's definitely there. I can't. I can't dismiss it.

John Dehlin [02:00:17] Was your grandpa an apostle before Russell M. Nelson was an apostle?

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:21] No, he was after.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Okay. And you're also another connection. Not only was your grandpa cousins with Gordon B. Hinckley, but your grandpa also served in a bishopric with Russell M. Nelson. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:33] That is correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] When would that have been?

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:36] Oh, probably the late 50s.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:40] Early 60s. Some. I. I don't know the exact dates, but my. My mom was a child on that when they were in the same bishopric.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:52] So.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] So your dad would have known at least Hinckley and Nelson personally very closely.

Greg Gerritsen [02:00:57] And the. I mean, Salt Lake was a lot smaller back then, too, so I know they knew quite a few of the apostles.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Do you remember having any interactions with or impressions of the prophets you met growing up?

Greg Gerritsen [02:01:20] Yeah, President Hinckley was always trying to make people laugh and smile. There. There were the. The nice, quiet apostles, like Elder Hells Robert Heles. Yeah, he was. He was just such a genuinely nice person. And I was always. I was always interested in him because he was a pilot and I knew that's what I wanted to be. So I was. I talked to him a few times and he was always really, really nice to me. So he was one of my favorite apostles. Just because he was so genuinely nice. My granddad always made President Monson laugh. President Monson always would tell us how my granddad would sign his name as Jorge and. Because I don't know where that joke came from, but he would always. My granddad always joked that he was as gringo as it could get because he had so much German in him. Because he spoke German and he served his mission in Germany and when he would get assigned to. To say Spanish names, he would always struggle with it. And so he would sign his name as H O R, H A Y,

John Dehlin [02:02:59] which is not how Jorge is spelled.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:01] Right. But that's, that's, that was the joke that he had with President Monson that he was just not a good Spanish speaker. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:10] And Monson thought that was super funny.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:13] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:13] Yeah. So at my granddad's funeral, President Monson told me and a couple of my cousins that story. So he said. He just. And President Monson's a pretty big guy. And he took us, he had us around our. He put his arm around our shoulders and pulled us in and was telling us that. And he, he just. I mean, he was crying telling us about it.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Really?

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:41] Yeah, the.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] About the Jorge thing.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:43] Yeah. Because he was just. He. He really liked my granddad.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [02:03:48] And I had no idea that they had. I mean, that showed me the different levels of relationships that they each had because there was other apostles that they really didn't have that warm, affectionate feelings for. My granddad.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Do you want to say who those would be or would you rather not say who those would be? I'm not trying to get you to.

Greg Gerritsen [02:04:13] I'll say. There were two that didn't leave us with too good of feelings and one was Elder Packer. Present Packer. He just. And I had a experience with my grand. When I was at Westminster with my granddad where I kind of saw a little bit of that relationship and that was. That kind of made sense at the funeral why I felt that way as well. And when I was, when I was at Westminster, I did a lot of yard work for my grandparents that year. And that was the time that I really made up for not having a lot of one on one times with them. I was Able to spend at least once a week with them. And one night, my grandma had me come in and have dinner with them. And my granddad did not know that I was in the house. And he started to tell my grandma about a meeting that the quorum of the 12 had. And my granddad and President Packer had a disagreement on how a policy should be laid out. And my. My granddad said, we need to look at the Savior and we need to treat people in that way.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] And.

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:03] And he. He started to go into it, and then he walked in the room that I was in, and he immediately stopped and then just started talking to me. But it was. It was the type of conversation that a spouse has with their spouse when they're frustrated with a colleague and they're really upset that a colleague would. Would treat people that way.

John Dehlin [02:06:36] Do you remember what policy. And do you remember he did.

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:39] If.

John Dehlin [02:06:40] If your grandpa was focusing on the Savior, do you remember what Packer would have been focusing on?

Greg Gerritsen [02:06:45] He didn't get into the specifics because he saw me. And I always wondered what it was because that. It was such a. It was such an interesting conversation that I could tell it was super confidential because he asked me how long I had been in the room. So. And I. I said, I've been in the whole conversation. He said, well, you can. You can chalk that up, too. I probably said too much.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] There's so much there. There's the fact that he's, number one, confiding in your grandma.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] That's powerful.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:33] Number two, that he's acknowledging severe, significant disagreements with another apostle. Like, we know that they're human.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:41] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] But. But it's evidence of that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:44] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] That. That. That your dad, your granddad was on the side of the Savior, which makes me wonder what. What side Packer was on.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:50] Yeah. And I have no idea.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] Yeah, of course.

Greg Gerritsen [02:07:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] But then also that you don't. You know, that he didn't want you to. He. He didn't feel comfortable actually confiding in people other than his wife.

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:02] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:03] About any of the details of anything. And he didn't want there to be any knowledge of dissension within the ranks of the Quorum of the twelve, because, as I understand it, the appearance of unanimity, of all of the first presidency of the quorum of the 12 being in unanimity, which they aren't, but they also deeply value the appearance of they are. And this goes back to the theme of. Of there being a heavy emphasis on appearance, even in your family growing up. And there Being a difference, like what you said with your family, going to the grandpa dinners, grandma, grandpa dinners. There being difference between what was projected as the appearance and what was actually true. All that. I'm reading all that into that little

Greg Gerritsen [02:08:51] interaction, but it's all. It's spot on. It's. It's definitely part of the whole package. And my grandma and granddad had the best relationship. They adored each other and were very loyal to each other. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that he would confide in her, because if there was a relationship that I could emulate, it was theirs, because he treated her like a woman should be treated. She had complete independence and complete. She was valued as a person 100%. And he looked at her as his equal and as someone that was just extremely brilliant, smart, wonderful person. And so it does not surprise me that he would go to her for advice or a sounding board. They. They had the ultimate relationship. And I. That was the relationship that I wanted to emulate. Mm. So.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Yeah. Wow. And because in. With modern sensibilities, there's this idea that Mormonism is this really strict patriarchy and that women are undervalued. And what I'm hearing you say is that in the, in the example of your grandparents, there was a very strong feeling of equality.

Farewell Counsel and Conversations with Apostles

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:36] Definitely.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] Yeah. 100% mutual respect.

Greg Gerritsen [02:10:38] And that's why I could never understand, because I did see that patriarchal order in other relationships, especially in my mom and dad's relationship and in other aunts and uncles. And I always felt like my granddad was speaking to my aunts and uncles in conference talks, trying to tell them, snap out of it. You need to. You need to be more Christlike to each other and not. You don't need to have this patriarchal order. I mean, there was one conference center, all my brothers and sisters were nudging each other. Like, he's talking to dad. He's trying to get everyone to change. And it was like, to your dad.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] Yeah, basically that your dad wasn't modeling the type of equality, gender equality in companionship in a relationship that your mom's dad and mom modeled. Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:46] Exactly. 100%.

John Dehlin [02:11:48] And that your grandpa was what, giving a general conference talk as a way to tell your father to treat your mom better, his daughter. Is that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:11:56] That's what we all thought. And it wasn't only my dad. Some of my uncles were like that with. With my mom's sisters. And so we thought that that was a talk specifically for his son in laws. Ooh Because I mean, he told a couple stories and were like, this is exactly what dad needs to hear. This is what, this is what this.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] Well, cause he would care about the treatment of his daughters.

Greg Gerritsen [02:12:24] Exactly. I mean, now that I have my own two daughters, if I had son in laws treating their daughters like that, I would be furious. And what better platform than general conference to share a lesson for your son in laws?

John Dehlin [02:12:48] So you're saying some of your dad and. Or some of your uncles weren't as respectful to their wives, were President Elder Worthland's daughters as they should have been, that they mistreated them in ways not to prick on them or call them out?

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:05] Correct. And that's the perception that I had and some of my siblings had. Definitely for my own dad, that's the perception that we had for some of my uncles. Now, I don't know. I did not live with those uncles, so I don't know exactly. I only saw small snippets of, of how they were. But talking with some of my cousins, that's the, that's the perception we had. And that's, and that's probably something that will not sit well with my uncles if they ever hear this.

John Dehlin [02:13:43] Sure.

Greg Gerritsen [02:13:44] But that was, that was what we experienced and, and that's what we thought.

John Dehlin [02:13:49] It's weird that they didn't pick up the love and the equality and emulate that. That somehow one generation away from a really loving and yet respected and authoritative relationship, they somehow pick up more patriarchy and more inequality and mistreatment. Why, why weren't they emulating your grandparents?

Greg Gerritsen [02:14:14] I, That's a great question. Because, I mean, I've. I have siblings that emulated my other grandparents instead. And I, I scratch my head at some of the things that, that people latch onto and I don't know, I mean, my, my dad didn't really have a good home environment growing up. And so I can see how he was, he was doing the best with what he had. And I, I don't want him to think that I think he's a terrible person or anything like that.

John Dehlin [02:15:03] Nope.

Greg Gerritsen [02:15:03] But. But I, I do think that. There were things that he latched onto that were part of the system, and the system kind of creates that kind of mentality and you have to go against the grain to overcome that. And my granddad did go against the grain. And there's been plenty of interactions I've had with people where they'll come up to me and they've told me, especially the football community, because he's a big football fan. And there's been quite a few football people that have come up to him and have asked him, should I go on a mission? And he's like, why? He's like, you have a great platform as a football player to share the gospel if you want, use that as your mission. And that goes against the grain because

John Dehlin [02:16:10] I know Packer wouldn't say that.

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:12] Exactly. And I know he's been. I know he was reprimanded for saying that to some people because Packer would

John Dehlin [02:16:21] have been senior to him. Is that right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:23] Yes. Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:24] Yes. But he gave a few people, and one turned out to be an NFL player, advice to not go on a mission. And this player did listen to him. And. Oh, that seminary teacher that. Oh, what's his name? It was a baseball player that you interviewed. He's been on a couple times.

John Dehlin [02:16:56] Oh, yeah. Mark. Mark, yeah. Mark Osland.

Greg Gerritsen [02:16:59] I wish he would have. I wish he would have met my granddad.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] Oh.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:03] Because I know what my granddad would have gave, what advice he would have given him. And, Mark, if you. If I ever get to meet you, I would just say thank you for. For your story. But. But that, like, I really wish he would have met my granddad because I know my granddad would have told him that. That he. His mission is to. To develop as an athlete, too.

John Dehlin [02:17:33] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [02:17:34] Because it wasn't just athletes that he gave that advice to as well. He. He gave. He gave that advice to anybody that he felt a mission wasn't for. In their best interest. And, I mean, I. I had a friend that. From North Ogden that was given that advice from him at my. At my farewell. And so it was. It was. It was. He was more concerned about the individual than the church.

John Dehlin [02:18:12] That's huge. And that would be very different than my impression of Packer as an example and likewise.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:19] And that's why I think there was

John Dehlin [02:18:21] a lot of tension.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:22] Tension between the two.

John Dehlin [02:18:23] You were going to mention a second apostle that maybe.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:27] And you mentioned this idea of clicks to me that within the apostles.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] The first presidency, quorum of the 12, there are clicks. So talk about the second apostle that you were going to mention, if you want. And this idea of clicks and, like, what your perception was of how these cliques were organized and how they operated.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:45] So the second apostle that he. He's still a current apostle.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:18:54] And I think most people can guess who he would be.

John Dehlin [02:18:58] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:19:00] He was pretty brand new when my granddad was. Was passing away, so that should narrow it down quite a bit. I don't Think I want to name his name. Okay, that's fine because. Because he's still current and I. I don't want. If his family's listening or whatever, I don't want to feel like them. To feel like it's a personal thing. I have no malice towards the guy. I just think that there was tension between the two. And at the funeral, there was no emotion for him. And it was kind of annoying for us as family members that he was given special time at the viewing and a place when, like, we all adored my granddad and just thought so highly of him. And to have someone that you could tell didn't have that same level of respect for him, it was. That was. That was as. And I was a believer at the time. And that was a major crack for me in my testimony that this guy is put before our family at the funeral.

John Dehlin [02:20:38] When you say put before, what do you mean,

Greg Gerritsen [02:20:43] his viewing? Uh, he was. The. The apostles were given a specific time that they had to be at the viewing, and it was okay for them to be before or after and they could walk in and we all had to step aside for them just to

John Dehlin [02:21:05] let them be at the casket with your grandpa or what. Or to have meetings or to.

Greg Gerritsen [02:21:10] To have their. To have their special time for viewing. And so our. Our family viewing was a lot. It was not a normal viewing for. For a grandparent. I mean, I've had. I've had other. All my grandparents have passed, and at all the other funerals, the family is the focus. But at an apostles funeral, the quorum of the 12 and the First Presidency are the focus more so than the family. And so we had. There's quite a few of our cousins that are not active, and it was pretty upsetting to see that the family wasn't the focus. When the church preaches family.

John Dehlin [02:22:19] So this guy who you think probably didn't get along well with your grandpa, maybe they didn't even like each other. This apostle is like being given special time at the viewing to be with your grandpa. I don't even know if you're saying in a performative way, sort of like to be seen. To be seen.

Greg Gerritsen [02:22:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] When. When that was cutting into your time as kids and grandkids with. With your grandpa. Is that what you're saying?

Greg Gerritsen [02:22:44] Yeah. I mean, we had. We had cousins from all over the country coming in, and we just weren't. I mean, with over 40 grandkids and then spouses and. And then great grandkids, there's not a lot of time, and there's a lot of people in a small environment, and it's really hard to have the closure time that you would like to have. And for someone that we can tell, there's not the feeling of respect that we have, it's really frustrating.

John Dehlin [02:23:27] So I'm sorry.

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:28] So that was.

John Dehlin [02:23:30] That was a crack in your testimony?

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:31] Oh, major.

John Dehlin [02:23:32] Really?

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:33] Major.

John Dehlin [02:23:33] I would have never guessed that would be a crack in someone's testimony.

Greg Gerritsen [02:23:37] For me, it was. This is. This is a church about families. And if. If we're worried about eternal families, we have an issue. We have a big extended family here. There's a lot of. A lot of people that are struggling with their testimonies in this family. And you're still putting the quorum of the 12 before this family. Like, to me, that was a big. That was a big moment for me.

John Dehlin [02:24:06] Wow. Thanks for sharing. So sorry that happened.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:11] Yeah, it's. I was. And I was a very frustrating experience because we shared our granddad with the world, and it was. It was hard to never get personal closure with him.

John Dehlin [02:24:33] So you didn't. You don't feel like you got that?

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:38] Not. Not really. I mean, it was. It was. There just wasn't. Like, the. The personal moments I had with him were not in his final years. So.

John Dehlin [02:24:54] Because he was too busy or.

Greg Gerritsen [02:24:56] Well, I mean, he. He started having health issues. He started getting dementia. And then they started being. Really. They started to guard his interactions because

John Dehlin [02:25:11] how could he be a special witness of Christ and have dementia?

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] And then what would people say? And like with Monson.

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:17] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:25:19] And Ezra Tap Benson and.

Greg Gerritsen [02:25:21] Yeah, they don't. They don't want a public figure to have. To have private moments in public. And when do you have dementia, your guard is down and you say things that shouldn't be said. And they didn't want that. So it was like the times he spoke in general conference. The family was really nervous, and my mom was really stressed out every time he was giving a talk the last couple years.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Afraid of what he might say.

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:03] Yeah. Afraid that he might go off script. But, I mean, some of his best talks were when he had dementia because he would speak from the heart. And every John conference, he wanted to share what he thought it would be his last conference. As soon as my Grandma died in 2006, he wanted to die as well. He thought that she would outlive him, and it crushed him. And so he was giving his last conference talk. Every conference once she died.

John Dehlin [02:26:47] You really loved her.

Greg Gerritsen [02:26:48] Oh, if there's true love, that's what he had for her, so that's inspiring. So he, he, he was a genuinely good guy as far as like my interactions with him and what I saw.

John Dehlin [02:27:05] Yeah, I think he gave the talk about the church or the gospel being like an orchestra and everybody has their role. There's, you know, there's the piccolo and there's the flute and there's the drums in the. Was that, was that Worthland?

Greg Gerritsen [02:27:22] I don't know that, that one doesn't strike a chord with me. So I can't say yes or no because that one I would have to, I would have to have someone else

John Dehlin [02:27:37] answer that question because for me, and I'm googling it right now, the, that, that talk and, and I'm sure our listeners and viewers are going to be looking this up. But if, if that was him and if that was, you know, if that was the talk that he gave, it's viewed as one of the most inclusive talks ever to basically say we don't need divisions, we don't need, you know, orthodoxy separating people. We need everybody feeling like they have a role to play.

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:14] Yeah. Well, I will never forget the talk he gave at my farewell. So, and this is how my farewell went. You know how most mission farewells go.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] Oh, dude, dude, I just googled it. The talk is concern for the one, and it was given in April of 2008. So I think it might have been his last one of his last talks.

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:46] It was his second to last.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] Okay.

Greg Gerritsen [02:28:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:28:50] And I remember because there's the word the piccolo for some reason I remember the use of the term piccolo in it. And so I'm gonna keep googling it but keep tell your story.

Greg Gerritsen [02:29:02] So that matches his beliefs 100%. But so my farewell, you know how most pre, like 1990s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, the missionary gave a talk and it was like, it was the missionaries meeting. Well, so I knew everybody was there to see my granddad talk. So I gave like a two minute talk and then just turned the time over to my granddad. And my granddad was not, after the meeting, he said, I really wanted to hear you talk. I'm here for you, not for me. But he talked. He didn't prepare a talk because he didn't think he would have much time. So he was just going to bear his testimony. But when I, when I ended so quickly, he talked about love and he just opened up to first John and just started talking about what love is and how it doesn't matter who you are, Jesus loves you. And he talked about how like the gospel is nothing but love. And it doesn't matter where you are, who you are, Christ loves you. And that was his message to that audience. And he told me, he said, the one thing I want you to go out on your mission is just to listen and love people. And like that was his advice to me. And that was his advice to everybody in that room. And that's the kind of gospel that he taught. And it was always interesting to me to see people interpret things in harsh ways because that was not the gospel that I, I wanted to hear or I, I believed in.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] Yeah. And, and I, I'm glad I, I remembered this. So in this talk, concern for the one elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, you know, I'm just going to read a little bit of passages. So it, it's, this is bolded in the actual talk. True disciples of Jesus Christ have always been concerned for the 1. Jesus Christ was our greatest example. It goes on to say, some are lost because today I would like to talk about those who are lost. Some because they are different, some because they are weary, some because they have strayed. Some are lost because they are different. They feel as though they don't belong. Perhaps because they are different, they find themselves slipping away from the flock. They may look, act, think and speak differently than those around them. And that sometimes, and that sometimes causes them to assume they don't fit in. They conclude that they are not needed. Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the church should look, talk and be alike. I'm thinking about Packer and Bednar on the one hand, who like are about ultra orthodoxy. We all need, you know, the unwritten of order of things. Just this really harshness. Right.

Faith Crisis Begins and Part One Closes

Greg Gerritsen [02:32:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] And I'm putting Worthland on the other side of that because he's basically arguing for diversity, not uniformity. And so I'll continue. The Lord did not. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. So I remembered piccolo. That's how I felt the stock.

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:01] To only value the piccolos of the world, every instrument is precious. Every instrument.

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:06] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:33:07] And I'm thinking gay people. I'm thinking like everybody, you know, he

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:10] didn't, he didn't label people.

John Dehlin [02:33:12] Yeah, yeah. Every, every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father's children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds to the different depth and richness to the whole. And this isn't about, like, follow the prophet, obey the brethren. You know, conform to the expectations. This is like, I don't care who you are, you're loved and you're needed as you are.

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:44] Right. This. This is.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] And this is the year he died, right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:33:48] Yes. This is what was important to him, and this is what he preached to us as a family. So if you were at a family gathering with us and he heard someone making fun of someone, that's the only time he would be upset with us, is if we were. If we were making fun of someone being unkind. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:12] So it wasn't like if you were disobedient, it was if you were unkind.

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:16] Right. He did not care our status in the church. He did not care what calling people had. He didn't care whether you were active or not. He cared how you treated people. And that was the most important thing. And the only time I saw him upset was when we were making fun of a cousin and he. He was genuinely upset when we would. When we would hurt people's feelings.

John Dehlin [02:34:47] What a tender guy. Oh, and a football player.

Greg Gerritsen [02:34:50] You know what I mean? Like, yes, like, he. He was a man's man. He. He cared about the people that could not

John Dehlin [02:35:04] defend.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:04] Stick. Stick up for themselves, defend themselves. He wanted to help them. And like, I mean, he was a. He was a football player. He loved to hit when he played football. But he also told me that after you hit someone, and this is. He's like, you make sure when you're carrying the ball, you run through people and you put you. You protect that football. Nothing ever. Nothing ever rips that football out of your hands. But after you run someone over, you. You help them up, you make sure that they know that you're a gentleman, but the gentleman can hit. So, like, I mean, that. That talk was. That's who he is. And, and he's not putting on a show.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] Yeah.

Greg Gerritsen [02:35:58] So, yeah, like that. And. And that's why, like, I post Faith Struggle. My faith journey took so long because of how good he was to me. So, yeah, I mean, I put so much, so much in the bank because of him, because of the good of him, that it took me so long to deconstruct everything.

John Dehlin [02:36:30] I think that's a great place to end Part one, because it's just so powerful. What we've just talked about is I feel like it's like someone. Someone with a bad impression of mere Mormon stories would think, oh, Mormon stories, we're just going to, like, tear down the Brethren. And like, I feel like what a Beautiful tribute to your. Your grandpa and to how the teachings of Jesus Christ and he operated in the world. Right?

Greg Gerritsen [02:36:59] Yeah. I mean, he took his calling very seriously to represent Jesus, and he truly tried to emulate the life of Christ and how he treated people. And so I really believe that was the number one priority for him was to. Was to be a witness of Christ more so than of the restoration, so. Because I. I heard him talk about Christ way more than I heard him talk about the Restoration.

John Dehlin [02:37:40] Joseph Smith through the Book of Mormon.

Greg Gerritsen [02:37:42] Yeah. Right, right. That. That was.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] He was a Christian first and a Mormon second. I. I don't put words in your mouth.

Greg Gerritsen [02:37:51] That was the. That was the. The perception was always to follow Christ. It wasn't anything else.

John Dehlin [02:38:00] Follow the brethren.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:01] Right. It was. I was always looked to Christ.

John Dehlin [02:38:05] Wow.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:06] So.

John Dehlin [02:38:07] So cool. Like, yeah, like, I love hearing these stories. This is so powerful. Yeah. All right, Well, I don't like these episodes to go three and four hours because then people won't listen to them because it's like, it's way too long. So unless there's any way you want to end this episode, I think it'd be. I think this is a natural place to kind of end part one, and then we'll pick up in part two, kind of with your mission.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:38:33] And your faith journey, and then we'll. We'll keep talking about your. Your grandparents along the way and there. Anything you want to say to close out part one, or do you feel like we.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:41] I think I've talked enough.

John Dehlin [02:38:43] Okay. And I need to go to the bathroom, so. Okay. So. So. All right. So. So. Greg Garrettson, thank you so much for sharing so much about your grandparents and your life for this part one of. Of Mormon Stories podcast. It's been great.

Greg Gerritsen [02:38:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] Yeah. And don't go away. Whether you're on the live stream, join us later or you're watching parts one. Part one. Come right back for part two. We're going to be talking about Greg's mission, how in less than positive ways he was treated on his mission because he was the grandson of an apostle. And then what led to him after his mission, what that life was like. We'll talk about the story of Elder Eyring, you know, and wanting you to potentially who he wanted you to date, maybe, or go out with on a date. We'll talk about his adult years as the grandson of an apostle, and then we'll talk about your faith journey and kind of what led you to. To kind of where you are now. All right.

Greg Gerritsen [02:39:43] All right.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] All right, thanks so much. And join us now for part two. Come right back and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Part Two Intro and Benson's Background

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1662

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What in the world would cause a young Mormon man to apply to become a Mormon missionary and then to decline his mission call once it comes? Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, co host, John Dehlin. It is September 5, 2025, and today we are going to be interviewing a young man who recently received his call to serve a Mormon mission. And because of a series of events, once the call came and the time came to serve, he decided not to go on a mission. His name is Benson Lawson and he's joining us here in studios. Hey, Benson.

Benson Lawson [00:00:41] Hey, how's it going?

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Great. How long ago did you put your papers in?

Benson Lawson [00:00:46] I put my papers in twice, actually. I got denied once, but the actual time I put it in and it got accepted was in March of 2024.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Yeah, so like. Yeah, a year or two ago, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] So pretty current. And if that weren't awesome enough, as always, we try to have my co host Margi with us. So Margi is in studio and she'll be co hosting today. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:11] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Thanks for coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:12] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] Yeah. All right. Well, our audience loves missionary stories. And even though your story is maybe not a normal Mormon missionary story, we found your outline and your audition video to be super compelling. So anything you want to say as a disclaimer or as an intention before we jump in? Some people might want to know, why are you even doing this? You know, do you want to state an intention or just jump in?

Benson Lawson [00:01:39] I mean, disclaimer. I didn't actually go on a mission, so I don't have any real missionary stories. I never got chased with a knife or anything. But, I mean, my intention for coming here was to show other people out there that it's all right not to go on a mission. You don't have to go on a mission if you're Mormon and there are other ways of life. You don't always have to live the pure Mormon paradigm and still be a good Mormon. And you don't even have to be a Mormon for that matter. There's another way of life and the Mormon Church isn't the only way for happiness.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] And is it fair to say you were pretty in it to win it? Orthodox Mormon up until the time you applied?

Benson Lawson [00:02:20] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Yeah, we'll get to that.

Benson Lawson [00:02:22] It's a straight and narrow path kind of guy. Yeah, I did everything by the rules. I think something that brought me lots of success in life was having an outline of rules that I followed and I was pretty good at following rules. I think that's why I had a lot of success in my, I don't know, high school career. But once college hit and I had

John Dehlin [00:02:43] a little more freedom, the formula changed.

Benson Lawson [00:02:45] It just kind of shattered.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:02:48] But yeah, that was when I realized I could do something else in my life. So, yeah, that's when things started falling apart and I had kind of a faith crisis. Like a what, a fifth life crisis? Yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] No, we'll get, we'll get into all that. So, yeah. Welcome, Benson Lawson, to Mormon Stories.

Benson Lawson [00:03:07] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] All right, so where does your Mormon story begin?

Benson Lawson [00:03:10] Medford, Oregon. Okay. That's where I was born.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Where's that?

Benson Lawson [00:03:13] It is in Southern Oregon, near the Willamette Valley. That's where I was born. I grew up in Grants Pass, Oregon. Yeah. And something I like to state about Grants Pass, Oregon, I'm not sure if you guys are aware, but there's like a Utah Mormon versus other Mormon kind of thing. Do you know about that?

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Yeah. Tell us about it though.

Benson Lawson [00:03:33] Yeah. So Grants Pass, Oregon, I'd say from my experience is a little bit more Utah Mormon. And eventually I moved to Redmond, Oregon, which is where I had middle school and high school. And they're a bit more other Mormon, not being as orthodox, not being as rule following.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] So the Utah Mormons are by the book, obnoxious, conservative, strict.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:53] Well, maybe not obnoxious, but maybe we wouldn't use obnoxious.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Sorry, what words would you describe?

Benson Lawson [00:03:59] I don't know. Obnoxious. Yeah, but yes, you get the idea straight, all that they feel right.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:08] They feel very right in what they're doing.

Benson Lawson [00:04:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Okay. And the Oregon Mormons are more, less, more low key.

Benson Lawson [00:04:16] Yeah. Well, Grants Pass, Oregon.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:04:18] Utah style.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Right.

Benson Lawson [00:04:19] Like I'd say there's different sects of Utah Mormons outside of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Got it.

Benson Lawson [00:04:24] Yeah. Okay, so I grew up ages like 1 to 10 in grants pass. And I started with the very orthodox, very in line with what the Mormon Church wanted.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] Okay. All right, so where, what comes next in your story?

Benson Lawson [00:04:39] All right, so both of my parents were converts to the church. My mom wasn't raised in the Mormon Church or raised in any religion for that matter, I believe. But when she was around 14, her and her sister both converted to the Mormon Church. And then my mom and my dad, around college time and my dad joined the Mormon Church for my mom. So my mom was baptized at 14, I think. And then my dad, when he was 18, I believe, and then they got married and then they had me eventually in Grants passed from there. I began to grew up after I was born, obviously. But in Grant's past, I began living a normal Mormon life. It was pretty ordinary. Or having a Mormon childhood, singing primary songs, going to church every Sunday before elementary school, I didn't see the world outside of Mormonism because everyone I hung out with were Mormons. We had a little singing group as a scene group, as it was called, I think. I don't know where everyone met. At our house, all the kids my age. And we would do like primary songs. It was just a little fun music group we had. But once I got to elementary school, I made a bunch of friends and lots of which weren't Mormon. So I began to see this world outside of Mormonism. But nonetheless, I still stayed in the church, obviously. And we had the missionaries come over often. And this is when the mission was reinforced in my life. When missionaries would come over, we had a list of questions to ask them. I think there's four questions. First one was, where are you from? Second one was, why did you come on your mission? Third one was, how did you pay for your mission? And then fourth one was like, fourth one didn't show up till later. But it was, do you have your Eagle Scout? And what'd you do for your Eagle Scout? But yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:38] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] And I'm guessing because your parents were converts, they probably had a special love for missionaries. Yeah, they would.

Benson Lawson [00:06:47] Not all.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] Maybe Mormons would care about missionaries at the same level, but there's certainly certain active Mormons that always want to invite the missionaries over, have them over for dinner, and just really get to know them.

Benson Lawson [00:07:01] It felt like we had them over two or three times a month. Honestly, that's a lot. Over a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:04] That is a lot.

Benson Lawson [00:07:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:07:06] And I always loved having them over. It was just a nice big dinner we'd have and nice just chatting it up, having a lesson afterwards. And as a kid, I think it's funny when the missionaries come over if you're. I have two younger brothers, so they're like, you know, both very childlike at the time, having the missionaries over. The missionaries are trying to do their lessons and the kids are being rambunctious the whole time. So it's a little fun and game. It's a little silly

Margi Dehlin [00:07:32] growing up. I'm curious, like, with your family culture and like, what did your. Your family's lived experience of Mormonism feel like? Was it very conservative? Were there a lot of rules? Did you follow all the things? Was it a little bit more relaxed?

Rules, Routines, and a Strictly Mormon Upbringing

Benson Lawson [00:07:51] So Growing up, the way I was raised as a very Lots of rules. My parents were still married at the time. They eventually got divorced and my other two brothers were raised a little more lax. But for me, I had a lot of rules to follow. And just from a young age this rule following was reinforced. I was very good at following these rules. And with this. This reinforced from a young age having to do everything right. Having to do everything by the books. And with that I began to learn like the importance of following the rules in the church because it's a very rule oriented church. And eventually when the church started making everything a bit more. You can choose because back early 2000s, there's a set list of rules. Preach my gospel back then was more yes and no.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] That's the missionary curriculum. Or. Right.

Benson Lawson [00:08:46] Whereas nowadays with the. Or not. Preach my gospel. Sorry. For the strength of youth. It's been a while.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] I'm so the youth pamphlet for moral standards for youth.

Benson Lawson [00:08:58] I'd say both honestly Preach my gospel and strength. Preach my gospel and for the strength of youth. Both were very hardcore rules. Whereas nowadays it's a little bit more here are some rules you could follow but. Or here are some things that are discouraged. But then in the end it's kind of your.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Like before it was no tattoos.

Benson Lawson [00:09:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] No multiple ear piercings for girls. No R movies. And a few years ago the church changed it to encouraging to basically say we're not going to condemn tattoos anymore. We're not going to tell women they can't get multiple piercings.

Benson Lawson [00:09:32] It's just discouraged. Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:09:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] So a little more autonomy, huh? Yeah. Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:09:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:41] But were you saying you grew up with the rules? Yes, the rules version. And it sounds like for your personality and your brain, would you say that it was a good fit rules growing up when you were younger especially for sure.

Benson Lawson [00:10:00] I'm not autistic, but I think there's a little bit of it there. So the rules, the very set outline of life really fit who I was and who I am today.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:10] Yeah. Yep. And did you. Here's another question I have about your family. Your experience of your family and home. Did you feel like the rules of the church made their way into your home as well? In other words, like, was your home culture a bit of a mirror to the kind of church rules and church culture?

Benson Lawson [00:10:33] Yeah, very much so. We had family home evening every Monday night Sundays we weren't allowed to go anywhere. We weren't allowed to watch movies. We were allowed to watch like old Disney movies and Church movies and like veggie tails. But that was it. Saturday was the only time you're allowed to play video games. My dad loved video games, so I like video games too, but. Yeah, yeah, but we had these rules from church making its way into my life. We had. Or my home life. But we had nightly prayer, morning scripture study. My mom would take us to like the table before school and we'd read the for the Strength of Youth pamphlet. So. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] And do you think of those years your parents were together and you were trying hard to live the Mormon lifestyle is relatively happy?

Benson Lawson [00:11:25] Yeah, I was happy.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:11:27] I mean towards the end of my parents marriage, it was pretty evident that, you know, things weren't going great and that this had to end eventually. But when we lived in Grants Pass up until age 10, I was pretty happy, I'd say. So everything was in line. Everything was great. I was just a kid living life colorful and stress free. So yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:52] Yeah. With a layer and a layer of missionary that I do think is important to kind of say a level of having maybe more than average missionary influence in, in your home, the importance of missionary work and in this case, literally bringing the, the truth in quotation marks, you know, or salvation to your parents.

Benson Lawson [00:12:18] Yeah. And something I want to add is that as an incentive to server mission, my mom said that I could get a parrot after I came back or that she'd get me one. And it's a parrot because I broke my arm when I was five and I got like a beanie baby from the hospital and it was a little beanie baby parrot. I called it Jabbers. That's, that was its name. But she said I could get a parrot when I came back from my mission. So that was my very young incentive. I don't have a parrot today.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:44] A real life parrot.

Benson Lawson [00:12:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:47] Not just.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] You never got the parrot. And what message did you get from the church or your family about your responsibility to serve a mission?

Benson Lawson [00:12:57] You know, I mean it felt at that age it didn't even feel like a responsibility. It felt like a requirement. Like I didn't see a life where I wouldn't serve a mission at that young age. I just felt like it was something that I was going to do before the rest of my life happened. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] So maybe moving into your teen years. How were your teen years?

Benson Lawson [00:13:18] So I moved to Redmond when I was 10. Moving to Redmond. I think a great thing about the Mormon Church is that no matter where you go, I want to say no matter. But Most places you go, you'll have people. You'll have people to turn to. Like we moved to Redmond. Redmond, Oregon, and immediately when we got there, when you were moving stuff out of our moving truck, we had people there helping us. And from that day, I made some good friends who I still talk to today. But that's a great thing about the Mormon Church that I definitely do kind of miss just having a community, having people, no matter what. So in my teen years, though, everything was pretty good. Still the same Mormon outline up until about high school and freshman year of high school is when Covid hit towards the end of that year. And that was when things began to take a turn for the worse for my Mormon life back around this time. This for the strength of youth, still hadn't been revamped. It was revamped. Do you know what year exactly?

John Dehlin [00:14:17] It's a few years ago, years ago,

Benson Lawson [00:14:18] yeah, when I was in fresh freshman high school. So this had to be, I think, 2020. It was. It still hadn't been updated. So dating was still pretty, pretty strict. You can't date until you're 16. And when I was 15 is when I started having interests. And with that, I met my first girlfriend. Her name was MacKenzie. And we had. We dated on. Off throughout high school. And she was not Mormon. She was raised Catholic, but, I mean, she didn't really go. But she was not Mormon. I did not want to influence her to be Mormon. I'm kind of. Even at the time, I was still very. I don't want to change people. I think that's something that really made me not want to go on the mission in the end because I'm not a big fan of changing who people are. And that's reflected throughout my whole life, I think. But I did not want to change who MacKenzie was. So I never, like, coerced her into coming to church. Never talked about her to. Or talked about church to her, really. I kept it out of our relationship. But yeah, our first round of dating only lasted like three months. Freshman high school. What can I say? But yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:34] As a freshman, would you say you. Your testimony or so your beliefs and your lived experience of Mormonism, was it pretty intact?

Benson Lawson [00:15:44] Oh, yeah. From being perfect.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:47] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:15:47] Yeah, I was. I think I had the Aonic priest at that time. I was at church every Sunday. My parents were still married at this time, but at this point, I could see my dad starting to falter. But nonetheless, I'd go to church, I'd pray for my dad a lot. And I Pray for other people. I pray a lot. I prayed a lot. I'd be writing my journal every night, studying my scriptures. I was going to seminary every morning. And this is when things like I think freshman through about junior year of high school is when I was the most Mormon. When I believed everything to be 100% true. I think had I stayed that kind of Mormon for the rest of my life, I would have done very well in the Mormon Church. But it didn't last for who I was.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Did your faith influence your breaking up with this girlfriend the first time?

Benson Lawson [00:16:36] Not the first time.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Okay, it did.

Benson Lawson [00:16:37] The second. Third time.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] Okay. Okay. Keep going. I don't. I was just making sure I was

Margi Dehlin [00:16:42] going to just observe your personal habits.

Benson Lawson [00:16:44] My habits were.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:46] They sound like you were. What would I say? Just like very all in and on it with regard to. Because you're mentioning journal, scriptures, praying a lot. So you're taking it seriously.

Benson Lawson [00:17:00] Yeah, I'm. Even then or now. And even then I do very well by having a routine for my life. Routines are what make me thrive. Waking up, I'd pray, do my scriptures and get to seminary, do some more. We had 6am seminary where I'm from, so I was up early. And then school, I'd work out, come home or go to work, depending what year it is. But. And then scriptures, journal, pray and do it all again. And even today I do. I have a routine that helps me succeed. Just minus the LDS stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:37] Right?

Parents' Divorce and Its Effect on Faith

Benson Lawson [00:17:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] So you got back together with this girl apparently after breaking up.

Benson Lawson [00:17:43] Yeah. I don't remember the exact timeline for it all but like we all. We liked each other. It was just like messy with COVID and her grandparents were super into her dating. My parents were. They were chill with it. My parents throughout my whole life, they just want to make sure I was happy. They didn't let my happiness be taken over by the Mormon Church. They wanted to make sure that I'm living a good life. So very grateful for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:10] That's big.

Benson Lawson [00:18:11] Yeah. Next time we got together, I mean same thing pretty much. Except this time at this point school was back in section except for we were wearing masks and I don't know, things were great. I was still pretty Mormon. And then come around next summer, sophomore year, Covid had just ended, I think or it was still going around, I think. But this was the point where my uphill of life hit the peak and then went down. With respect to Mormonism. That's when my parents got divorced. And it definitely, like I said earlier, was a long time coming My dad is the band teacher at the local high school and my mom, she now works at an elementary school in the town 20 minutes north of Redmond. So my dad had been teaching and I could tell my mom or things were starting to be different because a couple years or I could tell that my parents were talking about the divorce or that was in. It was going to happen soon because my mom was working towards her master's degree for teaching. She became a teacher recently. She was a stay at home mother during my, my childhood, my brother's childhood. So her getting this degree I think was a way to prepare herself for being a single mother. Oh yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:39] But at the time, what I'm hearing is you had a sense that it was going to happen.

Benson Lawson [00:19:47] My dad does a buy not by year every two years because he's a band teacher. He goes on a trip to Europe with the Oregon Ambassadors of Music. On this trip, he drinks a bit, smokes a bit. And I didn't know this and I would be going to Europe for my, the summer of my junior year. So in preparation for telling me about this, he kind of told me around the time my parents were getting divorced, my mom and him had a sit down discussion with me. He's like, hey Benson, just so you know, I'm gonna be drinking, I'll be smoking. And this took me aback. My dad always drank coffee and he was a convert. He came to church only for my mom. And with that I could always tell he was on the fence. Like he came to church, he did all the right things. He had the priesthood. My mom and him are both temple workers when they're my age, so they were very in on the church. My dad was always just in it for my family. There was a time, I think it was 2016, it was when we were, we just moved to Redmond. My dad was drinking at a local like pizza place or something. And the owner of that pizza place was Mormon. Surprising to me that the owner was serving alcohol despite being Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] But, oh, the Marriotts serve alcohol and distribute porn in their hotels. You know, it's just you. Hotel Utah that was owned by the church, used to have a bar, you know what I mean?

Benson Lawson [00:21:13] Like, what can I say? Money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the owner caught my dad drinking alcohol once and this was 2016, so I didn't know about this until I was talking with my dad pretty recently. But the owner told on my dad, Bishop brought him in and then a stake president talked to my dad and my dad told the state president. President pretty much To F off. Because if you take this out or if you take this out on me, take this out, my family, you're going to tear my family apart. So nothing was done about it. My dad just kind of lives the life he wants to live at this time.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:49] How old were you when this was going on?

Benson Lawson [00:21:51] 12. I didn't hear anything about it. My mom didn't know anything about it at the time. My dad was kind of just. He had his own life apart from the Mormon Church where he did the things he wanted to.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:01] Okay, so you're kind of mentioning this time that you. You heard that your parents were being. Were getting a divorce. Right. I guess my question is, at the same time, are you aware that your dad is not really active?

Benson Lawson [00:22:17] Yes. So before the divorce, my dad had been active for like half a year or inactive for about half a year. About. That's when the conversation we had was, sorry if I didn't make that clear. But up until the divorce, my dad had been pretty out of the church. And then once summer hit, my dad left the church and he still lived with us for about a year because my mom, my dad, they care. I think the great thing about their divorce is that they cared about me and my two younger brothers the whole time. They wanted what was best for us, no matter what happened with them. So my dad stayed with us for about a year. He lived in the shadow back, but eventually moving, got his own apartment. And with the divorce agreements and all that, my two brothers got split custody. And because I was on my way out of high school, they let me choose. So I chose full custody for my mom. And the split custody between my brothers will be important later, but it's the reason why they are a little bit more lax with the church. And this, with this divorce, this is definitely the beginning of my family falling out of the Mormon Church. Before this, we were like one of the core families in the ward. Like, I don't know how. How it is in Utah, but there's definitely like a few select families that are like, I don't know, the big parts in the ward. Like, you see them there every Sunday. They always go to every activity. That is what the family we were was. But this definitely changed there.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay, so I guess something that comes up for me is you're describing yourself as, like, really appreciating rules. It's a comfort to you. You have a routine. So how did it impact? Like, I'm. It feels layered. It feels like you're experiencing your dad and how having a journey, maybe Away from Mormonism. Did that, did that affect you? I guess is my question. And then the divorce too. It feels like you have a couple layers that might. I guess I'll ask you, how did it impact you those two things?

Benson Lawson [00:24:25] When my parents got divorced, like when they told it was a temple divorce,

John Dehlin [00:24:29] they'd been temple married.

Benson Lawson [00:24:30] They were temple married, but I didn't know anything that happened on that level. And I talked to my dad pretty recently about it and he says they didn't do any of the paper, any of the paperwork. Like they're still paperwork wise. Sealed. Still sealed, yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] But civil.

Benson Lawson [00:24:45] They didn't really care enough to go and get all done.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:24:48] Because I think. Does it cost a lot of money or something?

John Dehlin [00:24:50] It's just a hassle. There's a lot of paperwork and it's not fun.

Benson Lawson [00:24:52] Yeah. So I'm pretty sure there's no need.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] Unless the woman is wanting to be resealed to a new husband.

Benson Lawson [00:25:00] Yeah. So as far as Mormonism goes, my dad and mom are still celestially married.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Okay. I get that. That happened to me. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:25:08] Yeah. As far as myself goes, though, the divorce did hit me pretty hard. It was the first time where I think I felt like the genuine sadness of loss in my life, but it did not affect my routine at all. If anything, it gave me more motivation to be a good Mormon. I prayed a lot more for my dad, for him to come back to the church because, like, the only thing it did is it brought a lot of questions about what's going to happen to my family in the afterlife. This is when I started doing a bit of digging. Like, this is the first time I started looking into questions about divorce because it's a very opaque region. I talked, I didn't do any like outside digging, but I asked a lot of my church friends, church adults, and honestly, I never got a clear answer.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:25:53] But I think what I settled on was that my mom and my dad not being married wouldn't affect our celestial, eternal family. Because I settled on that because that's what felt right for me.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:26:08] And it may not be necessarily what the church says is true. Like, isn't what the church goes by, that with the divorce the man can remarry but the woman can't unless a man chooses her. Is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:26:23] I mean, I don't. For as long as I was a member and paying attention, the man could remarry as many women as he wanted to and get sealed to them all. In other words, have multiple plural wives sealed to him in the Hereafter. But if the woman wanted to get sealed to a different man than her original husband had to fill out all the paperwork and have the original ceiling canceled because forever, a woman could only be sealed to one man. But a man could be sealed to as many wives as he wanted.

Benson Lawson [00:27:02] Okay. Yeah. But. Yeah, I didn't know any of that.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:27:06] I never got straight answers.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] No.

Benson Lawson [00:27:08] Because everyone gave me different answers.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:27:09] So I just settled on what I felt was right and what I wanted to believe.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:27:13] Which was that I'm still going to be going to the celestial kingdom. I'll still be sealed to my mom with my dad. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:27:22] I don't know about my dad.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] It'll get worked out in the year.

Benson Lawson [00:27:24] It all works out. We'll be happy in the end. That's what matters.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] And that's pretty much the church's. That's the only real doctrine the church has today.

Benson Lawson [00:27:31] Yeah. Everything's changing, but they always keep that.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] I think God's fair and loving and everyone will be happy.

Benson Lawson [00:27:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] You know, hey, what's.

Benson Lawson [00:27:38] What's bad about that?

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Yeah, it's good.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:40] Did you worry about your dad? Did you have.

Benson Lawson [00:27:43] I worried about my dad a lot. I prayed, like I said, I prayed a lot about him. I really want him to come back to the church. I never, like, talked to him about it because something that's gonna be important, I think, later on and that's reflected in my life is that my dad often doesn't get very emotional. We never really have deep conversations. And this is, I think, a trait for the. That male Lawson in my family. Like, my dad doesn't really get deep. My grandpa. Same there. I've never really had super deep conversations with my dad or my. Or his dad. And I think that kind of reflected on me. I was never one who shared a lot about my emotions, so I coincidentally, I never really took these things to him. Took my worries about our future in heaven. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Plus, he didn't believe, so he. What's he gonna help? How's he gonna help you resolve the ceiling situation, the afterlife, if he doesn't necessarily believe any of that is true anymore?

Benson Lawson [00:28:46] I mean, like you said, it all works out in the end.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] Yeah. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:28:49] And that's like I was maybe. Like I was resting on the idea that maybe, you know, 20 years from now, you'll see the truth. You'll see the light. So he comes back.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:28:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Did the church impact your dating life at all, Your beliefs in the church? And if so, how.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:00] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:29:01] Yeah. So after the divorce, I think around this time, I was back together with Mackenzie.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] The non member.

Benson Lawson [00:29:07] Yes. Still not a member. Never became a member. But we broke up second time. We dated, like, throughout sophomore year, and they broke up second time. I forget when exactly, but I remember when I broke up with her that time. I remember, like, the explicit things I told her is that I don't see myself marrying you. I don't see having an eternal life with you because she wasn't Mormon. So the Mormon Church definitely impacted my dating life and the reason I chose to break up with her at that time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:29:40] And then. Or, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] And how are you feeling about the looming mission?

Benson Lawson [00:29:45] This was junior year, so it was still far off my mind.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:29:50] I didn't begin worrying about it until, like, senior year when I started having to apply for colleges scholarships, animation. But at this point, I was okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:58] And then your experience of school. School and kind of your identity in high school, how would you describe that?

Benson Lawson [00:30:04] Okay. Junior year, I took AP U.S. history. And in that class, we learned a lot about the history of the US and with that, the Mormonism was mentioned in the, like, late 18th century, early 19th century. There's like a bunch of religions appearing, like the Oneidas, the Shakers, and then the Mormons were there with them. That was my first thing. It's like, are we just another one of those religions? Why did we last so much longer? Or why do we have such a much bigger population than the remaining ones today? There was that and then the Mormon Meadows Massacre that was mentioned in the

John Dehlin [00:30:46] history book Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Benson Lawson [00:30:47] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] No, it's good.

Benson Lawson [00:30:49] Okay. Yeah, Mountain Meadows Massacre. Yeah, there's that. And this. That took me aback. I had never heard about that.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] Those who don't know, that's when Mormons in southern Utah killed like 100 to 120 pioneers traveling from Arkansas to California and dressed up as Indians to make it look like the Indians did it. But it was a massacre of, like 100 to 120 men, women and children.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] And there's just Mormons did it and

Benson Lawson [00:31:16] a NETFLIX documentary or something. Documentary.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] But a show dramatized American Primeval.

Benson Lawson [00:31:22] Yeah, Yeah, I watched it pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:31:25] Yeah. So I learned about that. That took me aback. I asked questions. I read ahead in the textbook. So I knew about it before it was lectured on reading it in the textbook. I took it to one of my respected adults in the church, and basically the answer I got was that it was a different sect of Mormons. There were different sex.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] No, that's not true.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:46] That's a new one.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] I'd never heard that either. Yeah, no, that was mainstream Mormons. I guess they were probably conf. Using them with the FLDS. Yeah. That live in southern Utah. But the FLDS hadn't developed yet in 1850s because polygamy was still okay in the mainstream Mormon church in the 1850s. So.

Benson Lawson [00:32:04] Yeah. So I was. I guess I got lied to, apparently.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] Probably unintentionally.

Benson Lawson [00:32:08] Yeah. And then when it was lectured on in class, I was like, the Mormon. The one Mormon in class, for reference, my high school, in my grade, there were two Mormons, and then there's a couple others in the younger grades. But in Redmond, we had a pretty small Mormon community. And so I was like the Mormon. Everyone knew me. I was the Mormon. Everyone brought questions to me about Mormonism, like, oh, you can't drink caffeine, you can't drink soda. Stuff like that. But when it was brought up in class, they talked to me about the massacre, and I gave them the answer that I received. It was a different sect of Mormons. We're the good ones. Don't worry. Yeah. That was the biggest point in high school, I think, with a little doubt I had with Mormonism actually affecting my high school career. And I'd say that's it for my junior year of high school.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:03] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:33:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:04] Did you attend young men's and did you enjoy young men's?

Benson Lawson [00:33:08] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] Steak dances and youth activities and all that?

Benson Lawson [00:33:12] I did. I don't know if there was a Mormon thing. I was there.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] And you enjoyed.

Benson Lawson [00:33:16] Oh, yeah. I had a great time.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] Mutual. Whatever it's called. Young men.

Benson Lawson [00:33:20] Yeah. And I guess this is a little bit in the past, but I did get my Eagle Scout I got. When I was 14, I think the mourn church left or they took a back or took out Scouts. And it's. The reason I heard it was for my mom was because the scouts were having homosexual leaders. Was there anything else?

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Well, that's what they told everyone. But the real reason was because there was so much sexual abuse happening in the church that the Boy Scouts had so many claims against it that they ended up going bankrupt. And the church was a big part of that. So it was really around sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, liability. But the way it was spun to Mormons was all the Boy Scouts are becoming liberal, you know, letting the gays in, you know, that kind of thing.

Benson Lawson [00:34:08] So I like this. I'm learning stuff.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] You didn't know that.

Benson Lawson [00:34:12] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:34:16] I was one of the last Mormons, I think, in the US or not in the US Just like one of the last Mormons ever to get there.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] Eagle Scout.

Benson Lawson [00:34:22] Yes. I got like.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] What year is that? 22.

Benson Lawson [00:34:26] I couldn't tell you.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] That's fine.

Benson Lawson [00:34:28] I don't know. I was 14 at the time. Yeah, do the math. It's like 2018.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:34:32] Yeah. Okay, if that's right. But like, I got it in December. For reference, my birthday's on December 23rd.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:34:39] So I got like right after my birthday, and then the new year hit, and that's when Boy Scouts were out.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:44] Okay, you slid in. You slid in with the.

Benson Lawson [00:34:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Okay. So your senior year, anything important for your Mormon story?

Senior Year, Mental Health, and Mission Application

Benson Lawson [00:34:53] Okay. I feel like as far as interesting things in my life goes, it begins around here over the summer between junior and senior year. That trip I mentioned earlier that my dad goes on to Europe every year where he drinks and stuff. I went on that trip. I got to go to Europe. The organ ambassadors of music. We had like a three day band camp at Oregon State University. We played a bunch of patriotic tunes, some tunes for France, I think one of the country's national anthems. But we. The countries we toured in were France, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. And basically the whole crux of the trip was we get to go to all these countries. There's like a big 300 student band, a big choir. We go around, play concerts in every country and just kind of be tourists for a while. And this is from high schoolers all over the state of Oregon just going out and hanging out. And there's a bunch of different groups, groups of. They call it buses. I was on the line bus, and it was from students within the central Oregon area. On that bus, there's two Mormons. There's me, and then a girl who lived in a town about 20 minutes north of me named Olivia. At this point, MacKenzie and I were still dating, but Olivia and I, we were like the only two Mormons. And in my outline, I have her label as Mormon, Mormons or Mormon, but. Yeah, so she was Mormon, but not really. I didn't really know that, but.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] Meaning she didn't live the standards.

Benson Lawson [00:36:30] Yes, I thought she lived the standards. She lived the standards for me. And she made it look like she was a good Mormon because she liked me. Yeah, but so on the trip, I was still with MacKenzie at this time. I wanted to be a good boyfriend, so I didn't do too much with Olivia. But we kind of hit off. We were pretty good friends. And after the trip ended, it was a fun trip, by the way. Great time in all the countries I loved. My favorite town was probably Rothenburg in Germany. It's a city, very medieval, surrounded by a wall. A great time there. But after Europe, after coming home, Olivia and I had hit things off pretty well as friends. And we kept in contact, chatting, and just like, she was Mormon, I was Mormon, we were pretty good friends. We were both kind of attracted to each other. So I had this little inner conflict. Do I stay with Mackenzie, who's not a Mormon, or do I get with Olivia, who is a Mormon? It's was a tough. A tough cookie to crumble. I don't know. But mackenzie and I did end up breaking up. And then about a month later, Olivia and I got together. I'd like to think that I didn't cheat on MacKenzie, but I may look that way. I like. I personally like to think I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] But we're not judging you.

Benson Lawson [00:37:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:55] To be clear, not a bishop's situation here. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember how. So was there. Did you agonize. You're describing an inner conflict with regard to the. Did you agonize about that? Did it feel, you know, in retrospect? Maybe I'll ask now. Are you feeling like you made the decision with church in mind? That's. That was kind of the breaker around the breakup.

Benson Lawson [00:38:27] Yeah. This was the last time. Mackenzie and I, like, this is the end of our on and off dating throughout high school. And there was a big inner conflict. It was really tough to make the decision. And in retrospect, I feel very guilty about the decisions I made because I was still a locked in Mormon then. But looking back on it now, the decisions I made weren't with, like, what I wanted with my. What they weren't with what I wanted in my mind or Mackenzie's mind. They were with what the church wanted, with what my eternity, my eternal salvation had in mind. So I did not break up with mackenzie solely because I wanted to be with Olivia. It was solely because. Just Mormonism. She wasn't Mormon. That was like the. I think the big.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:39:13] The big factor.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Sure.

Benson Lawson [00:39:14] To why I ended up getting with Olivia.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Totally normal.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:16] That's right. That makes sense.

Benson Lawson [00:39:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yep. Mormons are supposed to date Mormons full stop.

Benson Lawson [00:39:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] So what happens next?

Benson Lawson [00:39:27] So up next, Olivia and I are dating. We as a senior in high school, before the mission call, before college, all that. I'm, like, thinking about it. The time is now. All the stress is beginning to build up. Like I had to do all this now. And over Thanksgiving break I have a really bad panic attack, like on the floor sobbing and like shaking kind of thing. And I had never had anything like that in my life.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Wow.

Benson Lawson [00:39:54] I was, like I said earlier, not a very emotional person. And I was a very stressed person though.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:58] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:39:59] Like I'm always very stressed. Always stressed about school, making sure I'm doing enough in life.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:03] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:40:04] Being a good Mormon. And I felt like at this point over that Thanksgiving break, it just kind of all came out.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] What was that? What was mounting? What pressure?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:13] What were the different pressures in that moment?

Benson Lawson [00:40:15] So there was school, college.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] Were you running?

Benson Lawson [00:40:21] Running? I liked running.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:40:22] I love working out.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:40:23] Yeah. I was in cross country at the time, so running is a way I deal with stress. So that didn't have anything to do with it. But school, I was in AP chemistry at the time. That was rough. But I'm a chemistry minor now, so it's in the past. Yeah. But there's that panic attack.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] School, college, mission.

Benson Lawson [00:40:45] Yeah. Just everything you'd expect from a high school senior.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:40:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:49] Yeah. Where it's kind of like the applications are right there. Would you say also were you very high achieving? Were you very perfectionistic? Was that part of it?

Benson Lawson [00:40:58] Yeah, yeah, I was. At the end of senior year, I was a valedictorian.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Oh.

Benson Lawson [00:41:02] At my school. Yeah. 4.6 GPA.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Oh, wow.

Benson Lawson [00:41:05] On a 4.0 scale.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Oh.

Benson Lawson [00:41:07] From like AP classes in college stuff. And that is definitely attributed to the rule following aspect. I'm very good at following the rules and I see classrooms and learning just like another set of rules pretty much. But yeah, I was very high achieving so I felt like I had to be doing everything all the time. I was in a ton of clubs, I was doing a sport every season. I was also in band, which was a year round thing. So I was always doing something. My days, my schedules were always packed and then I was working too.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] That's a lot.

Benson Lawson [00:41:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:36] This is. It sounds exhausting.

Benson Lawson [00:41:38] Honestly, like I'm. Now I'm doing like not even half as much as that. And it's still just exhausting sometimes. Like I can't. Looking back on life, I can't imagine doing that much again. I can't even imagine how I did it at the time. Yeah, it was just a rough life, doing something all the time.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] I get that. And early morning seminary, waking up at 6:30. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot.

Benson Lawson [00:42:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Okay. So panic attack. That's pretty. I mean that you kind of feel like you want to die when you have a panic attack. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:42:09] Like, it was, like, two hours long. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:14] I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] What happened after that?

Benson Lawson [00:42:17] This was Thanksgiving. I turned 18 come my birthday in December. And after that is when I started applying for a mission on my mission application. And to preface, I've never been honest about my mental health or what I'm feeling. Just like I said, I'm an emotionally close person. But on this mission application, I decided to, like, be honest for the first time in my life. On the application, there's a whole bunch of sections about mental health and, like, experiences you've had in life. On, like, the area about anxiety, I talked about. I have a history of anxiety in my family, with my dad, my grandpa. I feel symptoms of it a lot with school. Under the depression section, I talked about COVID Covid was really rough for me. It was one of, like, the lower points of my life. I talked about that. And then under the panic attack section, I talked about the panic attack that I had. And that all got submitted. And with that, I got my OR I noticed back from them, the mission department, a couple months later. And we were all wondering, like, why is it taking so long? Why haven't I gotten anything? And then we get back and it's like, you can't serve your mission right now. And this was a really big, like, stab in the heart for me because just before this, there had been a talk from President Nelson. Couldn't tell you which one it was, but there's a quote he says that goes like any able and willing person who wants to submission should and can submission. I was able. I was willing, or at least I thought I was. So I applied and I didn't get called. And it was just heartbreaking for me. Not get called. My mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] And there's probably other kids who had similar or worse symptoms who maybe didn't mention it or. And. And so you might have felt like you were punished for being honest and for having. Especially around Covid time.

Benson Lawson [00:44:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] It's probably some pretty normal anxiety and depression symptoms during a really difficult time for everyone.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:26] Right. For a global pandemic, we would expect anxiety. That.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:30] Would be something that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] Maybe. I don't know.

Benson Lawson [00:44:33] Yeah, that's definitely one of the things I talked about with my mom a lot. Like, this is one of the harder, harder points in my life, like, dealing with the not being able to go on my mission. But I had a lot of talks with my mom just about, like, being honest and it got spit back in my face for being honest for once in my life about my mental health. And it was just really rough for me.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Yeah, I can see that. Especially with how high achieving you are and you're high status believer in the ward. Everyone's expecting you to apply for your mission and get your call. And. And then if it gets delayed, then you have to tell everybody, oh, it was delayed. And then of course, Mormon mind is like, what's he into porn? Did he have sex? And it's shaming if you don't get an immediate mission call when you apply. I'm guessing tell everybody.

Declined Mission Call and the Waiting Period

Margi Dehlin [00:45:27] Was that true for you?

Benson Lawson [00:45:28] This is exactly like. You got it, word for word. Exactly what happened. Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:45:33] And for reference, at this point in the church, I'm first counselor in the priest quorum. I'm plusing the sacrament every Sunday. And I was like senior seminary class president too.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:45:46] So I'm basically like the model.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:48] The model.

Benson Lawson [00:45:49] The role model we used to call it.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Peter Priesthood is what

Margi Dehlin [00:45:55] you were like. The church did not get that memo on me.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:46:00] And even with my like high academic achievements at this time. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:04] This.

Benson Lawson [00:46:04] I took this as not a setback, but a failure. And failure is just a rough thing for me to deal with having. Not having to face it.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Often you don't hear about valedictorians denied mission.

Benson Lawson [00:46:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] More faithful Mormon valedictorians who are said, you can't serve, you know. Yeah. Or at least have to be delayed. Right.

Benson Lawson [00:46:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Yeah. Okay. So how'd that go?

Benson Lawson [00:46:32] So when the mission denies someone their mission call, they send you a counselor to talk about your mental health. And the counselor I got was super cool. We only met a couple times because I told her, hey, I'm fine now. It was in the past. I wasn't fine. But at this point, I really wanted to serve my mission again if I have to.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:58] Yeah, you need to fix it. Is that it?

Benson Lawson [00:47:00] Yeah, I just, I needed to go on my mission. I didn't want it to interfere with my college too much. I didn't want to put my life too much on hold because it does that you have to take two years out of your life to serve a mission. And I didn't want to go to college for two years, be a sophomore, then go on a mission and come back two years later. Like, I wanted to go on a mission, ideally before college. I could do college all in one go. But it's not how it worked out or it's not how it was going to work out, but I had a meeting with the counselor, told her I was all right. She believed me, everything was good on her end. But then there was this test. I think, I don't know what test it's called. I think like police officers and other people have to take it too. But it gauges like your mental health and well being. It's like 200 questions. After taking it, my result was that I was faking being all right. I don't know how it told them, but I mean it got me. Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] So I wonder if that's called the mm. If it was the mmpi.

Benson Lawson [00:47:59] I think it was okay. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:02] Do you know what is that?

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Oh, how would you say that? I think a personality assessment. But it definitely is used not so much to diagnose, but to see what people's personalities are like, whether they have personality disorders and. Or whether they're lying or faking or hiding things. Honestly. Mmpi?

Benson Lawson [00:48:26] Yeah. So I took that.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. Wow. I must have gone to grad school.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:33] Look at that memory.

Benson Lawson [00:48:34] Could we have a minute?

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Let's have a. I could have gotten it wrong, but that's my memory. Anyway, we digress. Keep going.

Benson Lawson [00:48:40] Yeah. So after the mission department got that notice back of my result, there was a very long waiting period. During this time I was like, there's a week, two week intervals in between these back and forth mission department because they're pretty big company basically and they're getting back to one person like me. So during this time, rather than feeling like a member, a person, a missionary, I just felt like a number another person in their books to go out there and get more members, get more people to pay tithing. That's how I felt like I was being treated. I didn't feel like I was being treated by God. I felt like I was being treated by people, people who don't care about me, people who don't really need me. And it was definitely a rough time. And during this time as well, I'm applying for colleges. Sorry, college is plural. College is singular. I applied and got into BYU and I had deferred my mission for two years or I'd gotten a two year deferment. I didn't get any scholarships from byu. Surprisingly, that was a really.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] As a valedictorian, that's strange.

Benson Lawson [00:49:50] Weird for me. And I spent a lot of time on my essays too. I had a couple random like small scholarships from my local area, but by is cheap, so it didn't really matter. Yeah, I didn't apply for any other colleges. I didn't really apply for anything that didn't apply to my Mormon path in life. So I didn't get noticed that I wouldn't be serving my mission until late June. And for reference, I applied in March. And the whole back and forth lasted that long? From like March to June, basically. It was a long, long time.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:26] Can you just take a minute and describe what it felt like to be in the waiting place of that. Do you remember how you felt from March to June? Just kind of waiting for a response.

Benson Lawson [00:50:39] Okay. Super anxious. I'm someone who likes to. I don't procrastinate at all. I like having things done as soon as I can. So having something out of my control was definitely like defeating. I can't do anything about this. This is beyond my hands. It was in God's hands. Now it's just the way I looked at it. But I knew it would work out in the end. And this is also a rough time for Olivia and I because the mission was this looming dread throughout our whole relationship. There was one time at the beginning of our relationship where she's like. She told me, like, we only have three times less we'll see each other because she assumed we see each other like once a week because we have live 30 minutes away from each other. So she told me that once. But the mission was this looming dread throughout our whole relationship. And as it came closer, I still didn't know whether I was going to. I didn't know if Olivia was going to stay with me or break up with me. I didn't know if I was going to get Deer John or whatever would happen. But yeah, yeah, towards the end of our relationship, like end of senior year, I could tell that she was on her way out of the church. I could tell that she wasn't the person I thought she was. And when we broke up, she, like, told me this, told me the different life she was living outside of the Mormon Church. There's a time when I asked her a bunch of questions. At this point in the senior year, I was a very critical thinker. I began having some Mormon questions. I'd say this is the beginning of my faith crisis because I asked her a question or just using logic, I put together that gay people can't be in heaven and black people can't be in heaven or in the celestial kingdom, at least, because to be in the celestial kingdom, you can't be gay. To be in the celestial kingdom, you can't be black. Or I guess that's not Locked in. But I made the connection that the laminates were cursed, and they're cursed with the skin of darkness. So if you're cursed with the skin of darkness, are you made white when you go to heaven? That's the question I had. And interesting.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:52:40] And I just kind of answered it for myself using logic, history of the Mormon Church, the way they had things. And I, like, asked Olivia these things and she. I remember telling her, telling me once that, wow, you're making me question my faith. And. But. And I took these things to my bishop and he was. He gave me the answer to make things, like, look right in my head. He's like, no, it works out in the end. Don't worry.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] No, I never thought of that. But Mormon doctrine is that your dark skin is a curse, and when you are righteous and exalted, everything will be made white. So, yeah, no black or Native Americans would be allowed in heaven. Mormon heaven, technically, yeah. Kingdom. Anyway, at this point, I never thought of that.

Benson Lawson [00:53:27] I'm seeing the. I'm seeing problems with the celestial kingdom where everyone's basically just a nice pure Aryan. Like, all the imperfections are taken away, but the quote, unquote, perfections are just being white, being blonde.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:43] What is the idea?

Benson Lawson [00:53:44] Like this. Yeah. So, like, all the tattoos are just taken in erasure too. I remember there was a person in my ward who once told me about. They knew someone with down syndrome and that this person with down syndrome would be made clean in a celestial kingdom. They'd be made without down syndrome. They'd be perfected. And I don't know, just hearing that at that age, it just felt kind of gut wrenching. Like, yeah, we love this person, but we'd love them more if they didn't have down syndrome in heaven. And this is like the point in my life where I'm seeing just all these little. This is like where my shelf started getting built, I'd say. But yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:30] And this is, to be clear, is this senior year?

Benson Lawson [00:54:32] Yeah, this is still senior year. Still in the point where, like, I'm just waiting on my mission call because, like, I expected my mission call to be a nice, linear, easy process, but it's rough. It's a very rugged path. So naturally, my faith is pretty rugged right now, too. Although I'm still doing everything right. I'm just having these little thoughts. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] I'll just say from the church's perspective, not to defend them, but my understanding is anxiety and depression rates and early mission return rates have skyrocketed over the Past definitely during COVID but also over the past five to 10 years, like almost a double digit percentage of Mormon missionaries are returning home early from their missions. And a astronomical percentage of Mormon missionaries have significant anxiety or depression. So I'm guessing, if I can just maybe guess, the church wanted to make sure you were healthy and wants to make sure they have healthy missionaries so they don't have to pay for and subsidize and. Or train people, get them out there and then have them come home early.

Benson Lawson [00:55:45] Yeah, that was the exact reason why, like they didn't want me to come home early. Yeah, that was, I think, a good enough reason. But in my head at the time, like, I knew I'm a very steadfast person. I stick with goals, not a quitter. Yeah, I don't quit. So I knew like, if I went out, I might be like super depressed, I might be having a horrible time, but I'd stick with it to the end.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] That's not good for you.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:05] Oh, gosh. Yeah, That's a bit gut wrenching.

Benson Lawson [00:56:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:08] Yeah. Oh, I. So I wanted to ask you during this time from let's just say the panic attack on. I'm just feeling all the stress for you. I'm curious about coping. I'm just curious about your resources or if you were able to see a therapist or like, how did you cope with the high levels of anxiety that you were experiencing?

Benson Lawson [00:56:37] Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that. That was a point I missed. But I still have yet to actually talk to a therapist. I'm not great about explaining my feelings to others, but at this point is when I did find a coping mechanism for myself that works great for me. I still employ it to this day, but it's writing poetry, getting my feelings out on paper, getting my feelings stated, like in an indirect way works really well for me. And that was like the mechanism I used, I guess. And. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:09] So during this time you started writing.

Benson Lawson [00:57:11] Yeah, this is when I started writing. And writing is just a hobby for me. I love writing, I love reading. And poetry was just a means that helped me deal with my emotions and it works great for me. And like, I feel like modern day, I don't really need a therapist because poetry, it works nice. I'm happy.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Okay.

Benson Lawson [00:57:31] Yeah. But at the time, I think a therapist would have been highly beneficial for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:35] Right.

Benson Lawson [00:57:35] Yeah. And that's.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:37] Oh, sorry.

Benson Lawson [00:57:37] Oh, yeah. I just. Something I regret was not seeing a therapist, not being honest with the therapist, but it worked out. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:45] Yeah, that's right. And it's Interesting. So writing. Was this connected at all to journal writing, or was it completely different that that first time you sat and wrote a poem or, you know, do you remember, was it associated with, like, the time that you would normally journal write and then you wrote a poem, or did you literally just sort of midday take out a sheet of paper and just curious from the creative.

Benson Lawson [00:58:11] So I started writing because I had my. My AP literature teacher in high school. Name was Mrs. Mensting. Still a great friend of mine till this day. But she's super into poetry, super into literature, and she recommended that maybe I write poetry because I felt comfort, comfortable enough around her to come to her with my problems, tell her what's going on, and she recommended poetry. So that's why I started writing. But my poetry writing versus my journal writing, very different. It's black and white. My journal is just very. I'm a horrible journal writer. It's just very black and white. Just kind of like statements like, today I went to school, the day I did, this day did that. Never feelings, never emotions. It's just I kind of write my journal what I want, what I. What I want my kids to see in, like 20 years. I want them to see that everything's all right, that I'm being a good person, doing everything right. That's what I wanted my journal to be. But I did poetry on my own time. It was just a hobby. Never during my journal or. Deborah. Sorry. Never during my journal time. It was a completely different thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:14] Wow, that's really beautiful. Thanks for explaining how that kind of emerged for you. It makes a lot of sense. And don't we love a good teacher, a connected teacher?

Benson Lawson [00:59:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:27] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [00:59:27] She's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] So there's your mission call return and your BYU stuff.

Benson Lawson [00:59:33] Okay, so end of June, beginning of July, around that timeline was when the admission department, like, finally got back to me. Took a long time, and they said, we don't want you. Do you have to take a year deferment for your mission? Just have some time at college first, then reapply. So I forget when BYU starts exactly. I think it's late August. But at this point in my life, graduation had came and gone. Olivia and I had broken up because she was going off to college. And this period, the summer of between senior year and freshman year of college, I felt like high school gives a very, very good regiment, very good routine, and that was stripped away from me. So it's definitely a rough time of figuring out what am I doing with my life. Because right after I graduated, I still hadn't had this answer about the mission call yet. I still hadn't guaranteed my BYU or told BYU I was coming this year, not two years from now. So it's just this waiting period, this grace period. But then when I did get notified that I had to wait a year for my mission, I got to BYU or got back to them, told them not going on mission, coming to you this year. So in the span of like two months, I got my BYU scheduled together. I got books bought, I got an apartment. And for reference, freshmen usually stay in the dorms, but at this point, I hadn't done anything with housing yet because I expected I was going on a mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:06] Right.

Benson Lawson [01:01:06] I put my life on hold for the mission, but then last minute I found out I'm not going. So I was like, what am I doing? So I had to get in an apartment. We found like little ways around the dorms, but I lived in an apartment for my freshman year. But in the span of two months, I went from Redmond, got everything ready at BYU and moved to Utah. I'm there. It was like mid August.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:27] Wow.

Benson Lawson [01:01:28] That was just a. Definitely a time just like scrappling things together and.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:32] Yeah. Would you, would you say, you know, when you heard that you like going on a mission actually wasn't going to be an option for you, immediately, did you feel rejected? Did you feel kind of this sense of like, oh, so they're saying I'm not good enough?

BYU Freshman Year and Growing Doubts

Benson Lawson [01:01:51] Yeah, definitely.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:52] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:01:52] Something I'm very good at though is coming back from things strong, like getting rejected. There's definitely like a two day period where I felt defeated, felt like a failure, felt like I wasn't good enough to be a Mormon, to be a success in their eyes. But after that little period passed, I was back into it, doing the things I needed to do, doing the things that I thought would make me happy, that I thought I needed to do to be happy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] So how'd you like BYU as a freshman?

Benson Lawson [01:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Hey, we both, we both went to byu. How dare you. No, I'm kidding.

Benson Lawson [01:02:29] I was told like, going into it, I expect it to be a great time. I was told by lots of people that it's really fun, you're gonna have a great time. So I went in super optimistic, and when I arrived, like, I'm a pretty introverted person. For reference, and I've got something called. Or people say I have something called rbf. Be aware of that term. Resting bitch face.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] Yes.

Benson Lawson [01:02:56] Yeah. I'm someone. If you see me like sitting at a Cafeteria table. I've got a straight face since. Something I've noticed is people won't usually come up and talk to me unless, you know, I start the conversation. And I'm super great. I'm not super great at starting conversations all the time. So. Making friends was really hard for me at byu just because I'm pretty introverted.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Also, the dorms at BYU are set up to give you a really good social experience. And if you're a freshman just in the apartments, you're kind of. It's easy to probably feel alone and isolated.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:30] Yeah, it's a big school.

Benson Lawson [01:03:32] 30,000 people.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] 30,000 people?

Benson Lawson [01:03:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] Yeah, yeah. Okay. Did you like your classes?

Benson Lawson [01:03:38] Yeah, yeah. My apartment complex, it was the Bountiful Courts apartment. It's about a few blocks south of campus. I had five roommates, six people in a pretty cramped area. I had three people in one room. I was on a bottom bunk.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:56] Yeah, that's cozy.

Benson Lawson [01:03:57] It was just random people. But that worked out my schedule. My daily schedule at BYU was I'd walk to work early in the morning. I got a job doing custodial. It was 4:30 to 8:30am I got that one cuz minimum wage kind of sucked here at the time. And that was the highest paying job I could find with a job with experience. I had just cleaning, got 14 bucks an hour for that, which still wasn't great, but I go to work after work. I do classes and then I'd work out. At some point I donated plasma a lot or passive income at Griffel's. Plasma. Yeah. And something great about BYU is you don't. Your students aren't drinking, they're not getting tattoos, not doing drugs. So their plasma is super clean. So lots of BYU students donate plasma. So I think during my time being there, I donated 10 liters. I made a bunch of money doing it.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:57] Oh, interesting.

Benson Lawson [01:04:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:59] Did you feel like having the backup plan being able to go to byu? Did that buffer you? Spoke for a minute about feeling rejected.

Benson Lawson [01:05:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:11] Anytime we're talking about Mormonism, we have to consider the, you know, the social pressure aspect. Do you feel like going to BYU buffered the reaction or disappointment from those around you? Were they like, oh, oh, but it's okay because he's going to byu or did you still feel a sense of letting people down? Being judged is not good from other people like your ward or we just speak to that for a minute?

Benson Lawson [01:05:39] Yeah. So BYU was my backup plan and I put it in place to be a backup plan and it was a good thing that it worked out for me, but had it not worked out, probably would've just gone to like a local community college in central Oregon area. But BYU was my backup plan. And people in the ward, I think at this time they didn't judge me too much for it because they knew I was going to eventually serve a mission. I had never given like official talks about serving my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:06] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:06:07] Yet. So, okay. Like people knew I was going to serve one, they just didn't know whether it's going to be before or after my freshman year of college.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:14] Yep.

Benson Lawson [01:06:15] Like the only people who knew that was rejected was my close family. So my close friends and then my bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:20] Got it.

Benson Lawson [01:06:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:21] Okay, thanks.

John Dehlin [01:06:24] So anything other. That was eventful. Did you do two semesters at BYU and.

Benson Lawson [01:06:30] Yeah, so I went. Only went two semesters. It was like barely a year being there. And this was definitely one of the lowest times of my life. This was like after Olivia broke up with me and that took a pretty hard toll on who I was. And then like I was doing great with Olivia and then break up and then at byu, this low just kind of stayed there. It was pretty bad waking up early every morning. I had to wake up at 3:30 because I'd have to walk to work every morning. So I wasn't getting enough sleep usually. Yeah, classes weren't that bad. Honestly, they're freshman year stuff. And yeah, I don't know, I was a smart enough guy. But classes weren't horrible. It was just I got really homesick a lot. I have dogs. I miss my dogs a lot. Seeing a dog at BYU was always a highlight because I go be able to pet it. But I really miss my dogs, miss my family, missed. I had a really good group of friends in Redmond and we all separated, went our different ways for that time. So I really missed them.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:36] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:07:37] And at byu I felt like my only purpose there and was just kind of getting my freshman year done, waiting for my mission. And I planned to reapply for the mission that following year. Like it was early winter, this was 2024, so it's last year. Yeah. I had to make sure I was in a good mental state though. I had to be mentally healthy so I could be accepted on the mission and I never was. So this is the point where I just like masked my mental health. I masked all the problems I was having and the BYU culture didn't fit with me. The pure, the pure Mormon culture didn't resonate with me whatsoever. So I was masking all the problems I was Having all the sadness I felt, the mourning I had. And I did all that just so I could get accepted on my mission. Because if I don't get accepted, then people are going to start asking questions. Then people are going to start wondering, is he really a good Mormon? What's going on in his life? They're going to think other things besides depression. They're going to think things like breaking the law of chastity, infidelity, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Yeah. So you're masking your depression and anxiety but wanting to reapply. Yeah, but also lonely. I'm sick and wanting to get home.

Benson Lawson [01:09:10] Huh.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:09:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Anything else at Provo?

Benson Lawson [01:09:13] Yeah. While there I was still doing my journaling and I brought quotes from my journal just to.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:09:20] Kind of give an inside view to go ahead, what my life looks like. Like I said earlier, these quotes aren't super good. The writing isn't good. It's just kind of like a routine day to day life. Short sentences. Don't expect any literature here.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] We like real good.

Benson Lawson [01:09:38] This isn't real.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] Oh.

Benson Lawson [01:09:40] Or like these journaling quotes aren't the most real. Some of them are. But most of them, like I said, were what I want. My.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:48] That's right. So there's a self consciousness to it and kind of filter that you're giving the part of yourself that you expect to be read later, which is very different.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] It's a Posterity journal.

Benson Lawson [01:10:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this journal went through or the quotes I brought go through like right after graduation to like sometime around last year when I was at my current university. But I'm gonna do some of the ones from like graduation to around BYU time.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:20] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:10:22] So this is June 28th of 2023. This is when I don't know what I'm doing with my life really. I don't have my mission call yet. And this is like a low of my life. I'm losing sleep, My stress is increasing, my sadness is growing. Work pains me. I'm just waiting until I leave. Then what? I need help. I really need help. I don't know what to do. Yeah. And like looking back, I can't believe I was writing this stuff down without seeing that there's something wrong with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:53] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:10:54] And then July 15th of 2023, this is when I was endowed. This is a whole nother, you know, aspect of my Mormon journey. But this is what I saw when I was endowed into the church today. I drove to Portland with my mom and received my endowment. It was a new but very spiritual experience. And I'M excited and anxious for what the future holds. I hope I find happiness and fulfillment. Yeah. I was endowed in the Portland Oregon temple, so going there for the first time was super weird. It was the first time I saw all the cultish things. And even then, despite thinking how weird it was, I still masked it in this journal. Mm. Yeah. Next up is August of August 21, 2023. I had moved into Provo by now in my apartment, and I think it's my first night actually. So I moved into my apartment this morning and I'm not happy. I'm not sad. It's just that I'm not happy. I hope I'll meet people who'll make me happy. I miss home already. Next up, a month into school, September 18th of 2023. I've been a little homesick the past couple of days. I know it'll be okay, but it's hard being myself here. I hope I can find my people. Something I was told a lot going into college from like everyone is that you'll find your people, you'll find your group. And at byu, I never found that.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:18] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:12:18] Yeah. Next up, a month later, I took like a quote from each month at BYU. The next step is October 17th of 2023. Today was monotonous. I'm unhappy here. I want to find my purpose and I want to feel good about myself again. Hopefully things get better. Yeah, they're all pretty short entries. Like if I look back at my journal, I have like 20 entries per page sometimes. And it's just my day to day life was so plain. Like I said in that last one, it was just monotonous. Day by day, the bad just kept getting worse. And that's what my life was for like six, nine months. Yeah. Next up is November 6, 2023. Today was a normal Monday. I'm at an all time mental low, but it's not really affecting me. I'm just numb. Next up is Christmas of 2023. I went home for Christmas. I only went home once during my time at byu and it was just for Christmas break. And that quote is, today was Christmas, but it didn't really feel like it. I don't feel like my life is amounting to much. I hope I can find my purpose soon. I hope I can be happy. Christmas was good. Christmas was good though. Good times with family that I don't want to end. Yeah, the whole time that I went home from that break, I had a great time seeing all my family, seeing all my friends. But this, the whole time, this is dread of having to go back to Utah, having to fly back alone, take the train from. I took the train from Salt Lake to Provo, and it was just. That day of travel was just a journey of dread, having to go back to Provo.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] Can I pause you for a second?

Benson Lawson [01:14:07] Yeah. Go crazy.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] Something that I really love about what you're doing, like, in 2025, for the past five years in the United States, there's been a mental health epidemic.

Benson Lawson [01:14:21] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] With teens, young men and young adults in and out of the church. And, like, I don't think anybody really understands it, and they don't know what to do with it. What you're doing is you're kind of slowing down and giving us a real insider view on an example of the type of anxiety and depression that's like a plague right now in society, in US Society. And that's like, you know, I think that's really vulnerable of you. And it's also really instructive for those of us who want to try and understand it better, who may have young adult or teenage kids.

Benson Lawson [01:15:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] This is really powerful. So thank you.

Benson Lawson [01:15:05] Aside from, like, conversations with my girlfriend, my current girlfriend, hopefully my wife someday.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:12] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] She's here. I'm looking at her. She kind of nodded her head a little bit. She kind of went, you know, like that for whatever year.

Benson Lawson [01:15:22] Aside from conversations with her.

John Dehlin [01:15:23] No, she just gave a double thumbs up, actually.

Benson Lawson [01:15:25] That's good. Yeah. Aside from conversations with her, I've never been this vulnerable about my mental health. It's not something I really talk to my parents about.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:33] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:15:33] Talk to my friends about. Although, like, all my close friends and I are super great friends. We never really get this deep.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:39] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:15:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:40] Thank you. Thank you for being willing.

Benson Lawson [01:15:42] I'm happy I'm able to talk about this.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:44] And also, like, it's clear to me in your entries, which are concise. Like, what you're sharing is so concise and, like, very well expressed in few words. I feel is, like, I have. You get that sense. Sense of how disconnected you feel from the experience that you're having. Like, I just feel it in your writing that there's this space. You're. You're saying things like, I'm numb. I'm. And it just. You just feel the actual distance and insularity, like, being alone in it. And the. The Christmas one, too. And I have a question around this. It's like you're in a sentence. Like, you're living a sentence with going to byu. Like, there is no choice in Other words, it's not like you're actually like, well, this isn't really working for me. I wonder if there would be a better fit for me than. And did it feel that way? Did it feel like you were on this road? Can't veer, gotta live through it. A sentence back to BYUI go, you know, did it feel that way?

Benson Lawson [01:16:54] Yeah, for sure. Freshman year, BYU is supposed to be like a fun time. I was told about how fun it was supposed to be, but with my early morning work, with how little sleep I was getting, with how introverted I was, with how depressed I was at the time, those experiences didn't reach me. I felt like I wasn't living what I was, or I felt like I wasn't living the Mormon life I was supposed to be living. And there's just like a sense of guilt there. Like, I'm supposed to be happy here. I'm supposed to be having a good time. And so this is like the self guilt. Like, am I doing something wrong? Is this my fault? I'm doing all the right life choices, but that's right. Life isn't working out for me. Like, the Mormon Church is supposed to bring me happiness. I'm supposed to find joy through reading the scriptures, doing all these things. I'm in a horrible mental state. It's not working. What's going on? There's just so many questions, so much doubt. Not about the church yet, but about my life, about what I'm doing with my life, about the decisions I'm making outside of the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

Journal Entries, Loss of Purpose, and Shelf Items

John Dehlin [01:18:02] It's interesting also, the word purpose keeps coming up in your journal entries.

Benson Lawson [01:18:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] And it's interesting that that's one of the. I list, like, eight reasons why people are religious. And I. I have them. I just always rattle them off. And meaning and purpose is always, you know, two of the eight. And it's interesting that you were raised les Faithful, wanting to serve a mission, believed in the plan of salvation, yet in your mind, you didn't feel like you had a real sense of purpose. That is interesting to me that the church wasn't giving you what I assumed the LDS Church gives. That's like one of its benefits, is that it gives you purpose, but you weren't feeling it.

Benson Lawson [01:18:45] Yeah. Throughout high school, like, I still felt that kind of. That purpose kind of in the church, but most of my purpose was being a student, learning, studying, trying to get that valedictory status. I got a big goal I had.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:18:57] That was my purpose.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:18:59] And that came. That came and passed.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:19:02] And then, like, I think the only thing I was living on at BYU was, like, the purpose of being a student.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:19:08] And I was trying to have the purpose of being a mission, getting ready to be a missionary, being a Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:19:14] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:19:14] Like, it may have been purpose, but I wasn't happy about it. It didn't resonate with me. It wasn't what I truly wanted inside, but it's the purpose I gave myself so I could fit the Mormon mold.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:23] Yeah, that totally makes sense. And it seems to me, too, with your goal of valedictorian, it seems like you have goals and then you work to the goals. It's like you have a sense of control, you know, it's like a game. You learn the rules and you play the game and you succeed. Right. Like that. It seems like in other areas of your life, you were able to kind of figure it out and excel, but with the mission thing you're doing, you're. You're doing everything you're trying to, like, and it's. It's out of your control. It's actually right.

Benson Lawson [01:19:57] Yeah. I told myself through the whole time, like, oh, it's in God's hands. Things are going to work out. It was not in God's hand. It was. It was not in God's hands. It was in the. The mission department's hands, the bureaucracy.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:08] That's right.

Benson Lawson [01:20:09] It was in the hands of just imperfect men, imperfect priesthood leaders. God had no play in this at all.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:18] I'm curious to hear other entries. Do you have others you want to read?

Benson Lawson [01:20:21] So Christmas is the last one. Next up is January 16th of 2024. As I walk around campus, I can't help but feel meaningless. I want my sense of purpose again. There's that purpose again. Yeah. But Next up is February 25th of 2024. I'm really questioning the church. I don't believe many of the things they're putting forth. I believe in God, though, so I'll keep that close to me.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] Okay. Now I want to hear. What are you. What happened in February? Yeah, this is last year. This was in your ibyu. Why is your fest. Why? You should be in your religion class, Missionary prep or Book of Mormon, like, gaining a stronger testimony. What happened?

Benson Lawson [01:21:03] Oh, yeah, I was okay. I had mission prep my first semester. And honestly, it felt like a. Like a joke half the time being there. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] Why?

Benson Lawson [01:21:14] I don't want to say too much about it or too much bad about it.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:17] But not a good fit.

Benson Lawson [01:21:19] Yeah, it was not a good fit for me. I Felt like it was prep for the mtc. And BYU has something called the honor code where they'll give you tests and stuff and they just trust you not to cheat on the tests. We got like these weekly quizzes on the Preach My Gospel, the Mormon handbook. That thing's always changing. I had to study for other things, so I cheated on those tests. No one knew. And that was like the first time I ever cheated in my life. But I cheated because I knew in my heart, like, this stuff doesn't really matter. Yeah, I don't really need to learn these things because it's going to change. They're going to like, do away with it eventually. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. And then. Sorry. My professor at one point talked about cheating in that class. He had a missionary who went on his mission and then he came back later, came to the professor is like, hey, I cheated on all these tests. And he got his grade taken down from like an A to a C because he was cheating. And I feel like there's that sense of honest, having to be honest all the time. And then that guilt. I bet this guy had an A looming sense of guilt all throughout his mission. And then coming back, he repented and painted his permanent report card. But

John Dehlin [01:22:34] so what was causing you to doubt your testimony in February of last year?

Benson Lawson [01:22:38] Yeah, around this time. This is when on social media a bunch of ex Mormon stuff started showing up. Prior to this, on social media, I was really good at just like swiping away like, oh, this is stuff I'm not supposed to look at. Don't look at it. At this point, honestly, with how sad I was, how bad things were, I didn't really care anymore and I just kind of washed it.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Can I just say it's ironic because in the Wall Street Journal this week, there's an article. Oh, yeah, you're in it.

Benson Lawson [01:23:07] I'm in it.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] Yeah, you're in it. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry.

Benson Lawson [01:23:09] I told him.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:10] I told him yesterday.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, so. So just for those who are watching, the Wall Street Journal just came out with an article about how TikTok is causing Mormons to leave the church in droves. And it's got. I'm quoted, but it's got Alyssa Grenfell dressed up in her temple clothing and it quotes a lot of Mormon ex Mormon influencers. And it talks about the church having a hemorrhaging of membership because of short form social media content. So it was a tick tock, basically. Your Instagram, did you remember whose stuff you found?

Benson Lawson [01:23:46] So Alyssa Grandpa was like, the main one. Her stuff popped up a lot. Unfortunately, you guys didn't show up until, like, months later.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] What do you mean, unfortunately?

Benson Lawson [01:23:53] Unfortunately? I wish I saw it sooner, but.

John Dehlin [01:23:55] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:23:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Why? Why do you say that?

Benson Lawson [01:23:57] Well, like, you guys, I think, speak very literally, very honestly, and seeing as you're like, older adults. I'm super old. No, no, thanks. But, like, it's easier to respect people who have, you know, a little bit more age, people who have had more experiences. Like, I think Alyssa Grandfeld, she's a bit younger. Was she, like, 30? Something? Like, seeing her stuff, I just thought she was another person just right out of byu who is bashing BYU for no reason.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:24:25] Like, at the beginning of seeing these things, I did kind of doubt them, but.

John Dehlin [01:24:28] Oh, I see.

Benson Lawson [01:24:29] I had lots of other faith crises. Things go on.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:32] Okay, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:24:35] Moment.

John Dehlin [01:24:36] So you found some social media, started not swiping away? Basically. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:24:43] All right. Yeah. I'm going to talk about the building of my shelf real quick.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:24:49] And some of the things that added to it. So the endowment ceremony, like I mentioned earlier, was definitely a big thing. I went through the endowment only three times, counting my first one. I went to the Portland Temple, the Provost City Center Temple, and then the Provo Temple before it got. It's getting refurnished right now, I think. So before that and going through. Every time they play the video at the beginning is when. Every time they play the video, I fell asleep. Like, it's pretty boring, and I didn't like that aspect of it. But being in the celestial room doesn't feel like. I don't feel joy in there. I don't feel peace. The celestial room is supposed to be like a symbolic earthly version of heaven, yet I didn't want that to be my heaven. I didn't want the celestial room to be my eternity. It felt so plain in there, so white. I felt. I didn't feel. I, like, tried to feel peace, but it was just worry almost all the time. Just this dread of, is this what my eternity looks like? And it was. That's why I didn't like the endowment ceremony. But, yeah, makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Very common. Very few Mormons that I talked to really enjoyed the temple ceremony.

Benson Lawson [01:26:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:26:12] So that's good to hear.

Benson Lawson [01:26:14] Not.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:15] But I also like your thoughts also on the being in the celestial room afterwards. And it's. It's supposed to feel like heaven. And for you, you're having this opposite experience of, like, I really hope not. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:26:32] And another thing that happened while at byu. And there's this group of friends I had who got together pretty often from Redmond. We got together, like, once every two months or something. But an adult I respected in that group. I overheard her having a conversation once, and she. What she said was that she felt so sorry about those people with the trial of homosexuality. And that was another thing that was pretty gut wrenching for me. I had lots of homosexual friends in high school. I'm very. I try to be loving to everyone. I think the biggest thing with the church that still sticks with me is love for all. And just hearing them have that sense of pride that I'm not gay, I don't have this trial. And then saying it isn't tri is a trial for those who have it. That did not sit in my stomach well at all.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:19] Yeah. Yep.

Benson Lawson [01:27:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] Also very common. The LGBT stuff is decimated. Many a testimony. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:28] And you're recognizing. You're. You're actually connecting with yourself and recognizing your own feelings where there's, like, discord with what's being, which is. Yeah. Important.

Benson Lawson [01:27:42] And then additionally, at this point is when I started hearing about on social media, the church's finances out there. They have multiple hundreds of billions of dollars. And I'm thinking at that point, like, they don't want me to go on a mission because I'm gonna. I'm going to be a financial burden to them. When you have all that money to spare, I have to pay you, like, what, 40 bucks a month for my. What I was making in college. Do you really need that?

John Dehlin [01:28:11] You're tithing.

Benson Lawson [01:28:12] Yeah, tithing. That's what it was.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] Yeah, yeah. So you think they could get you the best mental health care possible? You could serve your mission and just get good support.

Benson Lawson [01:28:21] Yeah, yeah. Like, they have enough money to change the world pretty much. But yeah, they just let it sit in stocks and in property.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Benson Lawson [01:28:34] yeah. And then in my Book of Mormon class, my professor was Robbie Taggart. He's a phenomenal professor. If anyone's going to byu, I highly recommend him. Super great guy. We had one day we were talking about the history of African Americans at the church with the. The skin of darkness, Scripture. What's the exact. Do you know the exact.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Which one or the first one?

Benson Lawson [01:28:57] Second Nephi.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:57] That's a dark laugh.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] Okay, the second. Sorry, the second Nephi one.

Benson Lawson [01:29:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] Yeah, I forget the actual chapter verse, but it's when the Lamanites get cursed with dark skin.

Benson Lawson [01:29:08] Yeah, he was a bit of more a. More one of the liberal teachers, I think. And we had a whole day where we just talked about that scripture, talked about what it meant to us, talked about how we interpret it. And basically what everyone thought in that class was that the skin of darkness is just symbolic for countenance. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] Instead of actual pigment.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:28] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:29:29] Whereas back in the day it was actual pigment. Is that right?

John Dehlin [01:29:31] A thousand percent.

Benson Lawson [01:29:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Yeah. It still is. It's not ambiguous.

Benson Lawson [01:29:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:29:38] And another thing I saw on social media was the skin of darkness scripture, but it being interpreted as the actual pigment. Any of the church's history with the African Americans at this point, the priesthood ban, all of the mistreating with African Americans in the past. And that's another one of the things that did not fit well with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:59] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] To the BYU's credit, some professors are being open and honest about the Church's history, you know, so I, I, to some degree, I'm, I think that's good. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:30:14] Yeah. When we got to. I believe it's in Helen, where the Nephites at this point are the quote unquote, bad guys, but. Or the sinners. This is when they're putting their faith on like the vain things of the world, on money. I made the connection there that these Nephites putting their, putting everything they have on money, liking money more than God and just that's why they were cursed and all that. Or that's why they were the quote unquote bad guys. But they're just like the church. They're the same way the church is now today. The church values money way more than its members at times. And it's just I made that connection and that was another one of the things that I added to my shelf.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:57] Yeah, I bet.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] Yeah. Sometimes people start thinking, the great and spacious building mentioned in the Book of Mormon, that's, that's filled with people with costly apparel. That sounds a lot like the church to some people.

Benson Lawson [01:31:10] Yeah. It's like that's what temples are sometimes in my head, because they spend like, what, a million dollars on a chandelier? They put so much money in these temples. But I feel like, was it, is it in Indian one of the Indiana Jones movies? The. At the end there's like all the Holy Grail or the Holy Grails or whatever. Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] Ar Covenant or, oh, the Holy Grail.

Benson Lawson [01:31:33] And then like, you drink the one that Jesus would have picked or something and the guy drinks the gold when he dies. And then, then I forget. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but the one Jesus picked was like a wooden one. That's the one. The Holy Grail was like a very old, like, splatter or very old, like, dilapidated wooden one. That's not what temples are today. Temples are luxurious, expensive. So much money goes into them. It's just completely contradicts what most people believe. Jesus to have Jesus to believe in. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] Makes sense. Yeah. So some say the Book of Mormon condemns the modern church.

Benson Lawson [01:32:15] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:17] Right. So your shelf is heavy. It's getting heavier.

Benson Lawson [01:32:20] Yeah, yeah. Next up, I went to my church while at byu. My ward met in the Crabtree Building, which is one of the engineering buildings. One day we had our bishop brought someone in to give, like, a little lecture about repentance. This guy had been to prison. He committed sexual abuse, like four acts of it, was found guilty, went to prison as a sexual abuse on a male minor. And he came in and told us about repentance. And he had, like, been fresh out of prison. There's like a court case. You can find all the details on it showing his name. Okay. Or is that if it's.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] If you've. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:33:06] Public information. Yeah, there's.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] Yeah, yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:33:08] A Deseret news coverage of it.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:33:10] His name is Michael Ram Jenkins. But he came in, talked about his life. He had, like, troubles with homosexuality a lot as a kid. It had pro. It came into his marriage. But he came in, talked about, like, a penance and how he found, like, he's in a good place now, but he's committed, like, literal crimes. And he's been to prison for some of the things he's done, some of the acts of sexual abuse he's done. But after being out, he came, he talked to us about repentance. And going into this discussion, we knew that it'd be a bit more heavy topic, but we didn't know what happened until looking up his name afterwards. I just felt like this experience was another level of gaslighting. Like, here we have someone in here we have someone who, like, repented. And it's all good now. But, like, if you're trans, that's not good. Like, billet people who have repented, who are like registered sex offenders, they can, like, go on youth trips and stuff, but if you have a trans person, they can't go on youth trips. And that's a connection I made at that time. And that just another thing, gut wrenching, did not sit well in my stomach.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:24] So to be clear, he comes in as a speaker.

Benson Lawson [01:34:27] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:28] And is he talking about his experience of growing up gay? Or is he talking about growing up gay and the sexual abuse, or are you saying he didn't even talk about the sexual abuse and you found that out later?

Benson Lawson [01:34:42] He didn't talk about the sexual abuse exactly. He talked about how he had like an internal homosexual struggle, but he masked it throughout the whole, his whole life. And he, like it was something that was a problem in his marriage. And then he talked about. He did like, something. That's what he told us. He went to prison.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:02] Oh.

Benson Lawson [01:35:02] And then the whole point of the lesson was to show us repentance afterwards. Like he repented of it all.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:06] He was forgiven.

Benson Lawson [01:35:07] It's all good now. Forgiven. I'm a good person now. That's what he was trying to show us.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:11] I. I get it.

Benson Lawson [01:35:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:12] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] Part of the problem with that is it perpetuates the false stereotype that gay people abuse at higher rates. And I don't think that's what the evidence shows.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:22] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] And also, as I understand it, people that have abused children oftentimes repeat. So as far as you know, he's better now, but it's, it's hard to know. So that's just a difficult all the way around. Repentance is a tricky thing when it comes to child abusers. But also you are spot on that the church has 50, 100 years of protecting abusers at the expense of victims. You know, and that's just a fact. And more importantly to your point, treating child abusers way better than they treat gay or lesbian or trans members, that's just a fact. You, you get excommunicated for being legally same sex married. You don't necessarily get excommunicated for being a pedophile in the Mormon church.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] It's not mandatory. It's discretionary.

Benson Lawson [01:36:26] Yeah. And I saw this and like, that didn't fit with. That didn't fit with my personal beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:36:32] Like, sure, it bit with my Mormon beliefs and what I wanted to believe or what I had to believe, but as far as who I was, the beliefs I had, the person I wanted to be, it did not fit at all.

John Dehlin [01:36:43] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:36:43] And that's. Hence the faith crisis there.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.

Receiving and Ultimately Refusing the Mission Call

Margi Dehlin [01:36:49] Yep.

Benson Lawson [01:36:50] So I'd say those were definitely the major points of my faith crisis and the major things that made me start doubting the church in, In February.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:37:03] Yeah. So I'm going to move on with my journal.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] Yeah. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:37:07] Okay. Yeah. So after those points, can I say it's.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] It's hard at byu.

Benson Lawson [01:37:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] To be doubting your faith like that. And to know a mission's pending when your faith is falling away, that's not easy.

Benson Lawson [01:37:22] Like, I had all these doubts, but I was still trying to be the best Mormon I could. I knew all these things, but I just still tried to justify that. Hey, it'll all work out in the end. It's going to be all right.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:33] Yeah. But then you have this intense pressure, though, too, of like, I've got to be okay. I've got to be okay because I have to pass this mission interview. I failed last time, the test or whatever. Is that right?

Benson Lawson [01:37:44] And then, like, at this point, I'm worrying a little bit more on the mission about the mission goes. I have all these doubts. I, like, know all these things. The church is doing things wrong or doing something's wrong, but yet I have to preach the church to others.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:56] That's right.

Benson Lawson [01:37:56] I have to bring others under these beliefs that I don't. Under these beliefs that I don't completely believe in. So, yeah. Yeah. It was just a rough decision. Yeah. To lock in on the mission. Yeah. So next up is March, March 30th of 2024. I hate my life. There's nothing for me here in Utah. I have no purpose. I'm losing my faith in God. I need someone's help. I pray every night, but nothing works. I hate myself.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] Dang.

Benson Lawson [01:38:29] Yeah. April 2, 2024. I got my mission call today. After over a year of having to deal with crap from the mission department, I finally received my call. I opened it in the sacred grove in the jsb, the Joseph Smith building. And I did an Instagram live in the evening to showcase where I was going. I'm serving in the Oklahoma. Oklahoma City Mission. It could have been more exciting, but I'll take it. I know I'll find something for me there. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:59] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:39:00] My reaction to that was like, that's not where I wanted to go at all. Yet I kind of forced myself into accepting it, force myself into telling myself things are going to be okay. But a very true but unspoken thing of the church is that stateside missions are less respectable than foreign missions. And I felt like with my academic history, with my achievements, that I'd be worthy to go foreign, to have, like, a really cool experience somewhere outside the US but getting called Oklahoma, the Bible Belt, the middle of the US that wasn't super exciting for me. It felt like a spit in the face, frankly, with all this work I was doing to get on the mission, just to be called somewhere where I didn't really want to go. Like, no offense to anyone in Oklahoma, but it wasn't fulfilling for me as a place to spend two years of my life. And I feel like Oklahoma, that calling wasn't a calling from God when I got it. One, the mental health, all of that stateside, seems like it'd be less of a culture shock. So I'm sure that was some of the reason for sending me there then. Secondly, bit of a digression here. I had, when I was younger, a shellfish allergy. I got tested positive for shellfish. Right. And then one time I had shrimp, no reaction. Had crabs, no reaction. But I had never had mollusks. So I just assumed I was allergic to mollusks. On my application, I just put down shellfish. So I think they called me to Oklahoma to keep me away from, like, oceans or where you'd find seafood. That just felt like a very logical decision and not a spiritual decision.

John Dehlin [01:40:46] No, it's absolutely true that the church, historically, if you endorse mental health conditions, you're assigned stateside.

Benson Lawson [01:40:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:56] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:40:56] And for reference, I'm not allergic to moles. I tried an oyster and I didn't have a reaction, so I could have been fine anywhere.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:04] Something that is interesting, I think, in the church too, is when you, like, culturally, when you get a mission call, to have preferences at all is kind of looked down upon. Right. It's like you're a true servant. If you're just thrilled no matter where you're sent, which then it. It creates again, that kind of split self of what you show people, which is like, I'm gonna. I'm sure I'm gonna learn and be blessed by the people in whatever area in Idaho, in I'm called to Utah, or that showing preferences or like, any type of. Like, this would be actually fun for me is, like, frowned upon. It's just selfless. You have no. The. The less need you have, the less preferences you have. It's like the. The more righteous you are, which is just interesting.

Benson Lawson [01:42:01] Yeah. Like, you're not serving a mission for yourself. You're serving a mission for God. Your whole testimony isn't completely, like, based on what you want. It's based on what the church wants or what God wants. And I wasn't going on my mission to bless myself. Like, the reason I justified going on my mission was blessing the people that I'd serve. I was told by one of my bishops that going on my mission would also bless my family. So I went to bless my family, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:31] Right. Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] Another just a couple Things like, I know the senior missionaries are allowed to specify where they want to go because I have close family members who applied and yeah, they list like the top nine places they want to go and they got one of their top picks. So I mean, it's a totally a bureaucratic, arbitrary decision or cultural artifact to say that senior missionaries get to influence where they get called. But there's the stigma. Oh, but, but 18 to 20 year old missionaries, it's evil to have a preference to go foreign versus domestic. But I mean, that's legitimate.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:13] It's two years of your life. Yeah, it's two years a lot of people pay for. They're paying for it.

John Dehlin [01:43:17] Yeah. Why can't you say, I want to serve, I want to learn a language while I'm there, I want to do a different culture. Or I just, I don't want to go to Arkadelphia, Arkansas. Like that's, I guess in theory that's valid. Right? But, but in a high demand religion, you're not allowed to be in touch with your own desires, let alone say, I'm less interested in a mission if it's a domestic one.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:41] But I, you know, my bro, I went to Guatemala, which I was, you know, it was hard, but I loved it. My brother went to Sacramento, you know what I mean? And he said he loved it. But I'm sure I'm glad I didn't go to Sacramento, I can tell you that. You know.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:55] Anyway, I think preferences also really break down around the culture of, of and pressure to go. Because if everyone could just sort of decline and, and feel okay. Declining a location where you're like, wow, that does not sound like a great fit or Nope, I'm not really excited then that, that's one thing. But I think when you don't actually, when culturally there's this pressure to accept and you're lucky and the more selfless you are and obedient you are, the better. That's where it's. And you're paying for it. Then you put on the other things of like you're actually paying for it. It's two years of your. Then it's like, yeah, that people should be able to have some preferences. I'm just noticing in your story you're having these inner feelings of what you really feel and then you have kind of what you're sharing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] And sorry, one last thing. Like the what, what we're taught is that the Lord chooses our mission calling. What's true is that there's this computer system that has A bunch of, you know, where are there needs for missionaries who are, who's applying? How do we take into consideration, you know, all the different factors and then make a decision?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] And they've even built this sort of facade of a system where an apostle will sit down and like, oversee the assignments of, you know, missionary candidates to missions. But let's just be clear. It's. It's a computer that's picking, not God.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] You know, and yes, maybe occasionally an apostle will go. I feel like Jimmy should go to Spain instead of, you know, Oklahoma. But there's no evidence that that's God.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:45:41] That could just be like what he had for lunch, you know what I mean? Yeah. So anyway, sorry, we're just trying to

Margi Dehlin [01:45:47] connect with, add some context as to the difficult feelings you're, you're feeling in this moment.

Benson Lawson [01:45:53] Yeah, yeah, I appreciate all that.

John Dehlin [01:45:55] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:45:56] So next up after the mission call is at the end of that month. 4/25, 24. It was my last full day in Utah today. I still don't know what I'm doing with my life. I know what makes me happy, but how can I integrate it into my life? How can I work this out? So I was super excited to leave byu. The last, at the end of the semester, I was just dreading it. It was just kind of a plateau until I could finish up school. And then after that I was just waiting for my mission. My mission call was for July 15, so I had a bit of waiting to do. And I get back end of April. So that's like what, three months? And this period was, I'd say, the point at which I decided not just for a mission, this is the point at which I decided to do things that didn't align with the church. And some of the things that went into that decision was like all the faith crises, things we talked about before. I wasn't seeing a future in the church. I was still at an all time mental low. And with that, I knew going on the mission would just push me lower because I had things to cope with. My mental, though, like I just had TV shows to watch. I'd work out a lot. I worked out a lot because that's just what I use my free time for. And I'd lose those things on the mission. I wouldn't have these things to interact with. I wouldn't have these pop culture things to interact with that made me happy. The things that distracted me from what was going on. I would lose all of my distractions because they don't align with what you can do on your mission. I feel like if I lost all those things, the mission would have just been horrible for me. I don't think I would have gone home early either because like I said earlier, I'm a very steadfast person. I don't give up, I don't quit. And. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:46] Is that what you were referring to in your journal writing when you said I know what makes me happy?

Benson Lawson [01:47:52] Yes. I know the things that make me happy. And I was worried about losing those things. Like, how can I integrate these things into my life? Because these things most like normal Mormons don't do all the time. They don't do them as often as I do them.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:05] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] And for those who don't know, you know, missionaries can't watch tv, they can't go to the movies, they can't browse the Internet, and they certainly can't go work out at the gym. Like maybe they can go jog for 30 minutes once a day with their companion. But. But there's just so many normal, everyday things that more missionaries can't do.

Benson Lawson [01:48:28] So.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] And I think it's also worth mentioning being a devout, faithful Mormon was not making you happy.

Benson Lawson [01:48:36] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:48:39] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:48:39] Yeah. Like over this year, over that year, I went to the movies a lot. I watched a lot of TV shows. I did. I. And I think the reason I did that was because these stories that other people were making, these stories of other people's lives were distracting me from my own life, distracting me from how sad I was because I could rejoice in, like these other stories and these others lives and to take that away from me and just focus on my life and focus on what I needed to do to be a good servant for God, just to bring people into a church I didn't believe in. I think that's a good enough reason not to serve your mission.

John Dehlin [01:49:15] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:49:16] Yeah. Next up is May 18th of 2024. Today I decided that I'm not going to suffer a mission. This was a long time coming, but today I must have the strength to truly say, I'm not. I'm not going to do it. Instead, I'm going to Eastern Oregon University in the fall. I'm optimistic and hopeful for what is to come.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:37] Wow. How. What did it feel like to kind of, you know, in that moment, stake. Stake a claim on your own life?

Benson Lawson [01:49:46] Yeah. So during this period between the end of my freshman year in college, in between when I was supposed to leave on my mission, all I had was the mission that's the only thing I had waiting for me. I didn't have school to focus on anymore. I just had like a part time job and then waiting for the mission.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] What's the mission pressure or culture like BYU as a freshman?

Benson Lawson [01:50:07] Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, that's a really good question. So the question at BYU is not have you served a mission or where did you serve or not have. The question is, where did you serve your mission? And when I told people that, oh, I haven't served my mission yet, they're just like a little. Really? And a little taken aback and it

John Dehlin [01:50:26] means there's something wrong.

Benson Lawson [01:50:27] Yeah. So I had to tell them about my mental health issues. I told a lot of people like, oh, I just had some mental health problems. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] Because they're thinking up you're into porn or you had sex, you know, which is. It's a violation of privacy and it's embarrassing.

Benson Lawson [01:50:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:41] So then you have to disclose your mental health issues, which is none of their GD business. But you don't want them thinking that you're into porn necessarily. Right. Yeah. Right.

Benson Lawson [01:50:52] So there's a very heavy mission culture at byu.

John Dehlin [01:50:54] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:50:54] Like you expect everyone you see to have at least served remission. Every male you serve at least. See at least. And then again, lots of female servicians too. I think it's. Are females rising in numbers?

John Dehlin [01:51:04] Yes, there's more women than men now.

Benson Lawson [01:51:07] That's crazy. Yeah, that's what it felt like at byu because I mean, most of male friends I had were like, like older in their 20s than I just because they had already served their mission. Like I had as a freshman. I was 19. I had lots of. Or 18. 19. I had lots of freshman friends who were like early 20s, 22, 23. And then like most of the kids my age were girls because they have to wait till they're 19 to serve the mission. Men can serve at 18. So yeah, being a man who had not served his mission right out of high school was definitely a weird thing at byu.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was. It may. Was that after you came home that you made that decision so you didn't have to go tell all your BYU friends that you weren't serving your mission.

Benson Lawson [01:51:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Okay.

Benson Lawson [01:51:57] I think most of the ones I have, I don't keep in a lot of contact with them anymore. I have a few of them on Instagram, like social media, and they definitely seen that I didn't go. No one really reaches out to me though. But.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:08] But you are, you are back Home.

Benson Lawson [01:52:10] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:10] So you would have your home ward. You would have a time at least elapse, where you're seeing the people. Yeah, right.

Benson Lawson [01:52:18] And they all think I'm going. My mission. When I got home from byu, I actually gave a talk where I talked about my mission, where I got called. It wasn't like a going away talk. It was just more of a where I am at in life talk. That's kind of a prelude to my mission talk. But I did give a talk about where I got called. How this past year at BYU has been for me. So everyone in the ward still thinks I'm going. They know I'm called Oklahoma. Everyone knows that I'm still in the church. I'm still in it. Although at this point, I'm also having this huge faith crisis. Around this time, I also got my first tattoo.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:53] Oh, yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:52:54] That was a big thing. I got it right here in my

John Dehlin [01:52:56] chest because they were allowed by that point.

Benson Lawson [01:52:58] I mean, I was. I did it without my parents knowing. At this point, my dad was, like, completely out of the church. He was getting a ton of tattoos, and I didn't see that as like a role model way, but I knew I wanted something to, I don't know, state something that's important to me. I have a row of tattoos right here that are all Rubik's Cubes. I'm really into. It's called speed cubing, but I have, like, my favorite events on my torso area.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:26] But.

Benson Lawson [01:53:26] Yeah. What's your fastest time for a normal 3 by 3 is 7.4 seconds.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] Yeah, this is totally random, but Brooklyn's brother has, like, the world's record for creating the most multi dimensional Rubik's cube.

Benson Lawson [01:53:46] That's huge. I went to the world Championship in Seattle earlier this year, and that cube was there, and that guy was there, and I talked to him.

John Dehlin [01:53:54] Oh, yeah. Like, Preston Alden is his name. That's my brother.

Benson Lawson [01:53:57] 49 by 49.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:58] Is that right?

John Dehlin [01:53:59] She'll tell us in the chat, but that's crazy.

Benson Lawson [01:54:01] I saw him a few months ago.

John Dehlin [01:54:03] He's from. He went to Utah State and he studied mechanical.

Benson Lawson [01:54:06] I noticed he was Mormon. Yeah. There's something about Utah I don't know

John Dehlin [01:54:09] that I'd say he's not.

Benson Lawson [01:54:10] I saw, like, it was on the. They had the world record plaque there.

John Dehlin [01:54:14] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:54:14] And it said it was, like, done in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:54:16] So, yes, I assume they're Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:54:18] That's Preston.

Benson Lawson [01:54:18] That's really cool.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] That's cool. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:21] Little connection.

Benson Lawson [01:54:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:23] Okay, I'm gonna ask you again. Like, so when you.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Wait, but he said you said you solved the Rubik's Cube in 10 seconds.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:29] Seven.

John Dehlin [01:54:30] Seven seconds. That's amazing. Okay, sorry, Margi. I just didn't want to gloss over that, Preston.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:36] And we should.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] Seven seconds. Okay, good.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:39] We should not gloss over that. But okay, so back to your journal entry. So in that moment that you have said you've written it and you are now acknowledging it to yourself, I'm not going to go. And I have a different plan. I'm not also going back to byu. This is like a declaration of, oh, I'm going off plan now. So. So do you remember how. What that felt like?

Benson Lawson [01:55:09] Yeah. So prior to this date, I was still like very on the fence about going or not going so much to the point where I was researching other colleges I could go to for my following year because I knew I didn't want to go back to byu. Yeah, so what? I. I was super into track and field at this time. I was trying to get on the BYU team and I was like, good, but not good enough to get on it, but so I typed in literally on Google track schools. Oregon and Eastern Oregon University came up. I had some coaches in high school who were from there. So I reached out to their coach and they said I could come on the team. And with that, I knew I had an option to go to Eastern Oregon University. So that was my second plan to not going on the mission since I had that plan. I was telling my mom about the possibility, and then that's when she asked me, wait, so are you going on your mission anymore? And then it was in that moment when she asked me where I kind of said, you know what? No, I'm not going anymore. And this kind of shocked her. The tattoo shocked her. But they're both things I did. She saw me do them, but she saw that they made me happier and she was all right with them. And at this point, she's like a single mother in the church. Her ex husband is out of the church. She's seeing her two younger sons having a rough time in the church. So she's still in the church, but she's not in it for the doctrine. She's more in it for the community, in it for the people and for the connections. So this is the beginning of her own faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:56:46] It is brutal to be a single, divorced, single mom in the Mormon Church.

Benson Lawson [01:56:51] Yeah, the church is not built for single. It's not built for people, for that matter. It's built for like perfect families.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] I feel like and then outside of Utah, if you're trying to find a new Mormon husband to marry in freaking

Benson Lawson [01:57:04] Oregon, it'll be like she had, like, two options.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:57:07] None of which really fit her. What you needed.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:13] So did your. Did you. In this moment or in the weeks to come, what did this do for your joy factor, purpose and your anxiety?

John Dehlin [01:57:25] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:57:26] So the mission at this point was still this huge dread, but declaring that I wasn't going to go, my life opened to, like, infinite possibilities. I didn't have to go on the mission. I didn't have to be Mormon. I could do whatever I want with my life. I didn't have to get a Mormon wife. I can do whatever I want. I don't need a waste. It felt like a waste at that point. Waste two years of my life in Oklahoma.

John Dehlin [01:57:50] No offense to Oklahoma.

Benson Lawson [01:57:52] Yeah. But I just had so much opportunity open up to me, and it felt like just a whole new life. Pretty much a whole new world.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] To quote Disney.

Benson Lawson [01:58:04] Yeah. At this point, I'm still in the church, kind of. And after I declare that I'm not going on my mission with my mom, the next day, I call the mission department. I ring them up on the phone. I say, hi, this is Benson Lawson. I have a mission call for Oklahoma. And they're like, oh, yes, we have your file. And then I'm like, yes, I'd like to redact that. I'm not going on my mission anymore. And then the lady who called me or who was on the other line from, like, the nice classic morning voice went way, way stern. She was like, well, you need to talk to your stake president about that. And then it was off. Hang up.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] She hung up.

Benson Lawson [01:58:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] What?

Benson Lawson [01:58:43] It was insane.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] That is so rude. I would not expect that.

Benson Lawson [01:58:48] Yeah. It was just customer service.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:50] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:58:51] Yeah. So talk to my stake president. I did, but that's rare, probably, for

John Dehlin [01:58:56] them to receive a call like that.

Benson Lawson [01:58:57] Oh, yeah. Very rare.

John Dehlin [01:58:58] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [01:58:59] Yeah. So my stake president at the time, he's since been replaced with another one, but I'd say he definitely taught faith with fear, more so than faith with love. Going into this conversation I had with him, I had respected him. I trusted him. We worked together a lot. He respected me. But after this conversation I had with him, my opinion about him completely changed. So we met one evening, and he's a very gregarious person. He talks a lot. He loves talking and hearing the sound of his own voice. Sometimes I feel like he just talks a lot. There are lots of times when I talked and talked about one of my worries. And he had this. He talked back with just a long, like 10 minute answer about here's the reason why. And. But rather in this meeting, rather than feeling loved and being taken in with love, like, oh, it's all right, you're not going on your mission. It was this attack the whole time. It was like a two hour discussion of like, well, this is the end of your life. Pretty much you're going down a dangerous and dark path. I've seen others go down this path and their life led to ruin. Something he said to me is that the life you're going down does not lead to happiness. And I have a quote, a bunch of quotes. He said, yeah, there's that one. And then one of them was, being a black sheep does not make you special. And when I heard that one, I think Mormons are black sheep more so than the rest of the world. Because I felt like I was actually leaving the flock of black sheep and joining just the rest of the world with leaving the church and decided not to go on a mission. But yeah, he basically told me I'm not special. Another thing he said was my life struggled with polygamy, but she learned to cope with it.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] His wife, yes.

Benson Lawson [02:00:54] Yeah, yeah. And his wife's a very nice lady. But basically what I talked to him about was all the. I told him I'm not going on my mission. I talked about all my worries that we outlined earlier and he responded with like the answers of just have faith and you need to do this or else your life is going to end in ruin. You won't find celestial happiness.

John Dehlin [02:01:15] Yeah, keep going those quotes. There's a couple more.

Benson Lawson [02:01:18] Yeah. Another thing he said was that you can lie about your worthiness and still go to the temple. That was something that really took me aback. And just thinking about it, like, my dad did that a lot. My dad didn't drink coffee or my dad drink coffee, sorry, drink coffee. And my dad was drinking beer and stuff during my family's marriage, but he was lying on his temple, recommending abuse and still going to the temple just to keep his family intact at the time. And like I was talking about, one of the big things about this meeting was that I do not sustain the prophet. The prophet is an imperfect man. The word of wisdom is imperfect. It something about the word of wisdom that really bothered me was that it says no coffee, right? But it doesn't say no soda, no caffeine. Whereas, like, coffee is pretty compared to soda. Coffee is healthy for you. Like soda's pretty bad for you. And coffee, like it doesn't have any known detriments. So the word of wisdom is supposed to be a law of health and it does not. The word of wisdom as a law of health does not act as a law of health because it is denying coffee while it doesn't deny soda and things that are objectively unhealthy for you. And with that flaw, I said I don't sustain the prophet because if he were truly leading us righteously, he would note this flaw and fix it and make it so the word of wisdom actually leads us.

John Dehlin [02:02:42] And technically the word of wisdom condemns hot drinks.

Benson Lawson [02:02:46] Is that what it states? Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] It says hot drinks. And so that's been interpreted to mean coffee. But then in a modern era, what if it's a nice, you know, latte? And is hot chocolate bad? Like, but, but I mean, at this

Benson Lawson [02:02:58] point it's just coffee. And I believe it was caffeine for a while and then they invested in Coca Cola or something and that went away. Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:03:06] I mean the church has invested in Pepsi, I think in Coke for a long time in its investment portfolio. But caffeinated soda was for forbidden at BYU Provo and BYU Idaho for 50, 100 years. I don't know, 50 years at least until recently. And it was a huge deal when the BYU's let in caffeinated soda. So it's an example of the silliness of the evolution. But when I was growing up, there were families and entire families that would boast with pride that none of them had ever tried a Coke or a Pepsi. You know what I mean? Yeah. And now nobody cares.

Benson Lawson [02:03:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] You know, and so it's, it is kind of ridiculous. The word of wisdom has some good things in it, but it's also kind of ridiculous.

Benson Lawson [02:03:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:54] Yeah, sure.

Benson Lawson [02:03:55] Like the drugs, the alcohol, it's like things I can get behind. But soda, not having coffee, not. But being able to have soda just doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [02:04:04] Yeah, I mean the word of wisdom doesn't say anything about drugs.

Benson Lawson [02:04:07] Does it not?

John Dehlin [02:04:08] No.

Benson Lawson [02:04:08] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:09] Not Joseph Smith's version.

Benson Lawson [02:04:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:11] In fact, it says herbs of the field are good. And some interpret that to mean marijuana is okay. And actually the word of wisdom allows mild drinks of barley, which meant beer at the time. So the word of wisdom allows beer and wine. What it doesn't allow are like liquor, hard whiskey. Whiskey, you know, or brandy. So I mean, we don't even. It's such a cluster thing, you know.

Benson Lawson [02:04:36] So anyway, yeah, my English class in F byu, I think it was like, second term, I had a paper about coffee versus soda and, like, caffeine drinks and all that. And basically my. It was like an argumentative essay. And my conclusion was that the word of wisdom is not doing its job and it needs to be refurnished. Yeah, it needs to be fixed.

John Dehlin [02:04:59] We're totally off topic, but, like, we are.

Benson Lawson [02:05:01] Where were we?

John Dehlin [02:05:01] The word of wisdom says only eat meat in times of winter or famine. And Mormons eat meat all summer long.

Benson Lawson [02:05:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] You know what I mean? Love their barbecue. So it's. We don't even totally pay attention to it, but we digress. Okay, keep going. Other quotes from your stake president.

Benson Lawson [02:05:18] Yeah, there was one.

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Was he saying he what, didn't mind if you lied? Oh, he said about your worthiness.

Benson Lawson [02:05:23] What? He could ask these questions and I could say I could lie about it and still get into the temple.

John Dehlin [02:05:27] Why would a state president suggest it was okay to lie in your temple recommend interview?

Benson Lawson [02:05:32] I guess just people's lives are so different sometimes. And like I said, Redmond is a little bit more of a Lucy Goosey, progressive Mormon area. So I think he was just doing this so I could do all the rightmore things, but maybe I have these other factors in my life.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] He wanted you to go to the temple?

Benson Lawson [02:05:51] I think he wanted me to stay in the church, but he wanted me to just lie so I could stay in the church because he knows these things about me, these things I'm doing wrong, and he just wants me to lie about doing them wrong. He wants me to have build up a cognitive dissonance in my mind so I can still be a good Mormon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] And I think stake presidents are evaluated by how many young men and young women they send on missions. So he would have had an incentive for you to go.

Benson Lawson [02:06:19] Oh, yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:06:22] And then despite saying that I can lie on my temple recommend, he said next that I don't think you should be worthy for your temple recommend anymore because I don't sustain the profit.

John Dehlin [02:06:33] Valid. That's valid.

Benson Lawson [02:06:34] Yeah. You didn't take it away in that meeting, but immediately after that, I went home and talked to my mom about it. My mom and the stake president have had beef in the past, so. Yeah, she got really mad at him.

John Dehlin [02:06:49] For which part?

Benson Lawson [02:06:50] Just all of it. Everything he said to me, how he treated me with harshly instead of love. I try to take my temple recommend away. My mom's a very kind of get what she wants kind of person in the church. She always goes to the Bishops goes to the stake presidents. She would always go to our bishop about the conversations he'd have with like minors about like masturbation, stuff like that. And it was really funny because my bishop, he's a bit younger and when he gets uncomfortable, he has a really big stutter. And when she'd talk about masturbation to him, he'd stutter a lot. But yeah, she reached out to her brother in law. Her brother in law has some connection with the area authority of the seventy in the Pacific Northwest area. And that guy got pretty upset with our stake president. And recently he got replaced with a

John Dehlin [02:07:40] new guy, but possibly early, earlier than

Benson Lawson [02:07:43] he would have, I'm not sure. But he nonetheless, he got in trouble for the things or the way he treated me.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] Okay.

Benson Lawson [02:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:52] Okay.

Benson Lawson [02:07:54] I never got an apology, but I feel like an apology after that discussion would have done something for the Mormon Church in my eyes. But since he never apologized, it's just kind of in my mind, locked in the idea of the Mormon Church isn't the best thing. Mormon Church isn't good. The Mormon Church isn't perfect for me. Yeah.

Stake President Interview and Doctrinal Concerns

John Dehlin [02:08:16] Before you talk about like the fork in the road that you take after that stake president interview you mentioned in your list of shelf items. DNC88, 118 Seek, learning by studying faith and Renlund and a talk Renlund gave. Okay, did you tell us about. Because I would love to hear that.

Benson Lawson [02:08:37] Sure. So DC8800 118 seek, led by study and faith. I took that pretty literally. And I was seeking the truth by seeking out sources. I talked to a BYU professor about all the questions I had. He gave me a very roundabout answer. Why he had all these questions about faith, like LGBTQ people, money in the church. The way he answered them was he drew like a target, like a bunch of circles. He said in the middle circle is like the core doctrine, and the outer circles are your questions. These minute problems in the church. He said, despite these minute differences, you need to focus on the things in the middle, the things that really matter. The core doctrine, the Christ like attributes. That's how BYU professors, I feel like they're all given this way to approach questions. But yeah, the answer there was just focus on the Christ like attributes and have faith. That's how you can get through your trial. Another person I reached out to is my dad. He had been out of the church for a couple years by now. And with this he gave me a discussion about like all the problems with the church rather than rebuting my. My Faith crises questions. He kind of affirmed them for the first time with these questions. He gave me answers like, oh, yeah, I agree with this. And then he actually directed me towards the CES letter. And. Yeah, after reading that, you're sorry, your dad did. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Okay.

Benson Lawson [02:10:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:18] So he knew about the ces.

Benson Lawson [02:10:19] Oh, yeah. My dad was out of the church

John Dehlin [02:10:20] by this point, but not everyone who leaves the church knows about the CEO.

Benson Lawson [02:10:24] Yeah, but he directed me towards that. And reading through that, seeing everything, affirmed all my beliefs against the church. It showed me that the church has damaged people. It's not just my life that's damaged, but it's damaged hundreds, hundreds of thousands, even lots of people. And my mental health crisis is just a person in a crowd of lots of crises, faith crises, things that are happening to people. I'm just another person the church has hurt. So I'm not just that, but I'm another person the church has hurt. So I'm not alone in this. There are people out there who can help me. People out there who know what it's like. People out there I can turn to.

John Dehlin [02:11:09] That's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:09] Yeah, it's beautiful.

Benson Lawson [02:11:10] And then I talked to some other adults in the church, like, adults. I have a high school teacher who's not my dad. At the high school I went to, he was Mormon, but he, like, swears a lot in classes, so I assumed that he was, like, a cooler Mormon. I talked to him about why he stays in the church, and he stays in, like, just for the community, just, you know, have people. He, like, tries to do all the beliefs for his family. He likes the foundation it sets. But frankly, that wasn't enough for me because although I'd have a community, although I'd have a good system of beliefs, a good place to raise children, it was very damaging to my mental health to be there. And I didn't want to live a life being a Mormon

John Dehlin [02:11:59] just because I really like some of these bullets. Did you mention what. What it was about, Dale Renlund's talk?

Benson Lawson [02:12:05] Oh, not yet. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] Was important.

Benson Lawson [02:12:07] This goes with DC88118. He has a talk that's called Observation,

John Dehlin [02:12:14] Faith, Reason, and Revelation.

Benson Lawson [02:12:15] Yeah, I had to. I had to, like, analyze that talk for. It was like an exercise science class at byu. We're learning about the scientific method. And basically the crux of that talks is just to get to faith and to get to knowledge, you have to use observation and reason as well. And I believe, like, I probably interpreted it the way they didn't want me to interpret it, but I started using outside choices of the church. Yeah. I started getting in all the information. I started affirming my beliefs with other things other than the church. This is the point where rather than using church only sources, I was looking to other things. Looking to things beyond the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:00] And so you wrote Happiness in Heaven and Korihor's death.

Benson Lawson [02:13:03] Oh, yeah. That was a Book of Mormon paper I wrote. Or there's two papers I wrote. It was called our. I don't recall what it was called, but we had. Oh, like our question paper. Our spiritual question paper. And with these two papers, the happiness in heaven one. I had a question that was, how can we be happy in heaven if we aren't sad all the time? Because something that I like, believe is that you can't be happy unless you're sad too, if you don't have lows.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:13:35] And in heaven we're told, like, we live a life of eternal joy. Wouldn't a life of eternal joy just be boring?

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:13:42] Like, wouldn't a pure joyful eternity be equivalent to hell?

John Dehlin [02:13:47] Valid.

Benson Lawson [02:13:48] Like, so I had that question. The answer I had there was just have faith. In the end, that was the answer to my paper. And then Korotor's death. It's like, why did Kori Whore have to die if you don't know? Kori Whore was like the equivalent of like a philosopher during Book of Mormon times. And he was killed for having these beliefs outside of the church. Outside of. Was it one of the Nephi's or Alma? I forget. But it was a Helaman. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] He's questioning whether God exists, whether you need a savior, whether you need a church.

Benson Lawson [02:14:21] He was coming to the church with a very philosophical line of thought. He was using logic is basically what I was at the time. He was just someone who didn't fully believe. And rather than like treating him with love in the Book of Mormon, he just straight up died. Like,

John Dehlin [02:14:40] was he the one that died in ignominious death or was that.

Benson Lawson [02:14:42] I think it was apostate. Pretty sure.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] One of the apostates in the Book of Mormon.

Benson Lawson [02:14:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:47] Run over by like oxen or something like stampede. Like God just tramples him with animals. Okay.

Benson Lawson [02:14:55] I feel like killing apostates is something that didn't resonate with me because when you treat everyone with love.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned First Corinthians 13, 4, 7.

Benson Lawson [02:15:04] That is a scripture I really love. And it just talks about the definition of love, what it is, everything about it and the church, the Way they treat others, the way they treat homosexual people. Their history with African Americans does not at all align with that verse.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] Yeah. Okay. Thank you for.

Benson Lawson [02:15:22] That's just more. Some. Some more shelf stuff right there.

John Dehlin [02:15:25] Yeah. And I just. I love all that stuff, so thanks for being willing to talk about that.

Benson Lawson [02:15:31] Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:33] Wait, can I go back to that moment in time where you decided and you staked your claim in your own life? I just want to go like. So do you remember in the summer? That summer? Because I'm thinking this the century you

John Dehlin [02:15:49] just read last year.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:50] A year ago May, right? Yeah, just last year again, like, did. Did you notice your sense of purpose? What it did to your sense of purpose to kind of say, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to Oregon. I'm not going back to byu and I'm not going on a mission. What it did to your. Your level of anxiety and this feeling of. Of purpose.

Benson Lawson [02:16:15] Yeah. So with my mission being my purpose, like I mentioned earlier, that was just a purpose I did not want to have. It wasn't something I wanted to have, or it wasn't something I wanted to have, but it made me super sad, super depressed. Having to believe in that, having that to be my purpose, but taking that away. I'm able to go to Eastern Oregon University now. My purpose can again be school. I got accepted on the track team there. I was a hurdler, 400 hurdles.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:42] Oof.

Benson Lawson [02:16:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:43] Wow.

Benson Lawson [02:16:43] Rough event. But that was my purpose. Now I was a hurdler for a track team, and it was just a fun time.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:52] And how about the anxiety component? Did it affect or dread? I don't. I don't.

Benson Lawson [02:16:57] I didn't have any leaning dread after that because I didn't have a mission to go on. So I had truly no more worries about what the church would do to me. I was still, at this point, hanging out in the church. I had a calling where I was the one in charge of, like, the pamphlets or the brochures that you get for sacrament meeting.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:16] Oh, right, yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:17:18] After I didn't go on the mission, I was still attending church. It's this weird kind of phase, but okay. The bishop gave me that calling just so I could have some purpose in the church. But what I do is I'd make these pamphlets and. Or these brochures and I go to church. Just hang out for the first hour and then leave. I just go to church to get my calling done.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:41] I see.

Benson Lawson [02:17:42] I didn't like going to church at all. Like, I would. It was almost like a comedy show sometimes I go listen to, like, testimonies and stuff, listen to talks and just like, I know that's not true. I know that's not true. It's just going to church with all the information was a different experience. It's almost less boring sometimes. But after I left the church, and definitely left the church, when I moved to Eastern Oregon University, which is in Legrand, Oregon, pretty small town, that's at the point I definitely left. But after I left, the church almost seemed a lot more interesting than it was before, because up until that point, I had been learning about the church my whole life. But it was the same teaching, it's the same things I'm always learning. It was just relearning things over and over again.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:28] Right.

Benson Lawson [02:18:29] Regurgitated information. It was just boring. But after I left the church, there's all this new information. There's the Mormon Stories podcast. There's all this, these new things. I can look at all these new stories. I can listen to all this weird information about church history that I didn't know about before it became this thing to study that was actually interesting because it wasn't regurgitated information.

John Dehlin [02:18:54] Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that felt. I don't know. How did that feel? To be able to find those types of resources?

Benson Lawson [02:19:06] Quite refreshing. Like I cared about studying the church history at this point because I was looking at it just freely, rather than through the lens of the moron church.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:18] Yeah, right. Their narrative or their version that you just kind of go over and over. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:26] I'm glad you were able to find resources to help. Yeah, yeah. Because you mentioned. I love what you wrote in your outline. Basically, you write, this is the point. Where do you want to. That's right before resolution stories. Do you want to. I, I make the. Make the points that you were making right after your talk with your stake president. You talk about kind of this fork in the road.

Benson Lawson [02:19:51] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:52] So. Because I'll just say this, that the mark of a high demand religion, in my perspective, or an unhealthy religion, is they're constantly getting you to deny what's inside, to deny what makes you happy, to deny what you think is real or true or soulful or your purpose or meaning. And instead they're trying to tell you how to feel, how to think, what to do, who to be and what your purpose is.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:20] And.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] And for some people, that might work great. And they really do well being and doing what the church tells them. So in that sense, there's this term. I learned that a cult Works great until it doesn't. And for some people, it works until they die. I guess in theory, there's. For other people, that same path is toxic, and it can lead to not wanting to live anymore. And so. So you are clearly suffering under the Church's plan for you, being as faithful as you could be all the way through BYU and getting your mission call. Right. But what. What you decided to do wasn't to keep packing it down, to keep trying to find happiness within the church's plan for you. You decided that you were going to finally start listening to you and doing what you felt like made you happy. So I think that's the secret to happiness for almost everybody. Honestly, it's.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:21] It's literally, to me, it feels like you, in that moment, saved yourself.

Benson Lawson [02:21:29] Yeah, it's a really good way to put it. Like, throughout my whole senior year and up until the mission, up until that final conversation, I had had many conversations with, like, my bishops and a stake president. Like, I had these doubts, like, ooh, this mission thing's kind of big. But he's like, don't worry. It'll be all right. You can do it. I remember I had one conversation with my bishop where I was talking about having these little doubts about my mission. And he told me about his son who had gone on a mission, and he was like, he didn't want to go at all. But then he went, he had a great time, got back. He's super happy now. And rather than them telling me to make my own choice, it was like, you can make your own choice, but here's a bunch of reasons to go on top of it. So it was very biased towards going on the mission. And every time I had these conversations with my church leaders, I always stayed steadfast with the mission. But it wasn't until this final conversation with my stake president where I had all these doubts. I was super depressed. My life was at an all time low where, like, if I had gone a mission, if I had stayed steadfast with the church after that meeting, I don't even know what would have happened to me. It would have just been a very poor decision. It wouldn't have been the best thing for my life at all. I knew at that point the right decision was to not go on the mission in order to be happy, in order to find the purpose that I believe in.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] And I've had many people sit in that chair and tell me they went on the mission anyway. And some of them have said they no longer wanted to live because they Went on worry about.

Benson Lawson [02:23:09] That's where I could have gone. Had I gone.

John Dehlin [02:23:11] Yeah. Like I'm walking across a bridge and I start looking over the bridge. That I've had interviewees and I. And I think to the church's credit, part of why they were maybe even delayed your mission call is because I don't think the church feels like it benefits from having suicidal missionaries. So they were probably trying to keep you from becoming a suicidal missionary, which I guess in some sense was good. Even though you were annoyed by the church delaying your mission call, it was probably good for you.

Benson Lawson [02:23:43] It was definitely a good thing. It's just that they put so much emphasis on the mission. They just like, can't go.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:48] That's right. And the judgment around. If you delay or if you.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] Yeah, say it again. They put so much emphasis, so much

Benson Lawson [02:23:56] emphasis on the mission that you just can't not go.

John Dehlin [02:23:59] As a. As a. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:24:01] Despite mental health, despite all the issues you have, you still just can't not go. Because if you don't go, you get judged, you get shamed. It's just such a big thing within the church that no matter how hard your life is, no matter what you're dealing with, you still need to go. To be a good Mormon, to get a good Mormon husband or wife. It's just, I think, one of the things that's very imperfect with the modern

John Dehlin [02:24:24] Mormon Church, to have your parents be proud of you, to have your ward members be proud of you, just to feel good about yourself in that framework. Right. Because the rest of your life you're going to tell people when they say, where'd you serve your mission? If you don't serve a mission, what are they gonna. What are you gonna have to say to everyone who asks you? That's a common Mormon question. You meet someone, hey, where'd you serve your mission? Right. Well, to say, oh, I didn't.

Benson Lawson [02:24:48] They're like, oh, didn't President Nelson not serve a mission?

John Dehlin [02:24:53] Neither did President Oaks or Eyring. None of the current First Presidency is served a mission. And yet our modern Mormon culture, and to the Church's credit, again, more than ever, they're trying to reduce the stigma of early mission return or of not serving a mission, because believe it or not, is as terrible as it was for you. Way worse. 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.

Benson Lawson [02:25:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:20] So the Church is trying to give the Church credit. They're trying to make progress, but that's after generations of depression and anxiety and even suicide. So, I mean, they were kind of like all the changes for the church, they were kind of forced to make those changes. But even as much changes as they've made, as of a year ago, you were in this situation.

Benson Lawson [02:25:41] Yeah. So I feel like they're going in the right direction and maybe with. Honestly, a few decades, they'll be there. But, yeah, we're. As it stands, the church is not doing the right thing to help us missionaries to help mental health in the church. It's still a very hard life to live.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:25:57] If you don't want that life.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Yeah, yeah. Not hard. And. And what someone's gonna say, like, my Mormon brain was going, oh, well, that's. Oh, you didn't want to serve in Oklahoma. Well, that's pride. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [02:26:10] Or that's why I brought that up earlier.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] I know.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] No, I'm. Yeah. I'm just saying. And also. Well, you just, you know. Yeah. The celestial kingdom, you have to really earn it. And some people don't want to face all the challenges, you know, that get you to exaltation. So, yeah, you don't serve a mission because you kind of weren't strong enough or weren't committed enough. You know, that's how a Mormon might interpret that decision. Right.

Benson Lawson [02:26:37] If I do face all these challenges, then. If I did face all those challenges, then I bet the suicide risk for me would have been way up there, a thousand percent.

John Dehlin [02:26:45] And that's what the church knows now, you know, because they've got so many missionaries coming home. By the way, a lot of the missionaries that come home early come home because they don't believe anymore. But the church labels it as depression.

Benson Lawson [02:26:57] Isn't like 40% of missionaries leave the church now after they come home, Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:27:01] I mean, I've heard crazy numbers between 40 and 60%.

Benson Lawson [02:27:05] That's insane.

John Dehlin [02:27:06] Yeah. Are leaving the church within a year or two of coming home. But again, the church, you only hear those statistics from, like, people who attend private meetings and training meetings, but the church won't release the numbers, but we know it's super high. Numbers of Mormon missionaries have anxiety and depression on their missions, come home early from their missions and. And leave the church within two years of coming home from their missions. The numbers are extraordinarily high.

Benson Lawson [02:27:36] What is, as far as church membership goes, is it decrease or is it decreasing or increasing right now? Because I've heard different things.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] So in Africa, it's growing like gangbusters, but that's because they don't have access to the Internet and because they're so poor that The Mormon Church is probably good for them in the United States. The only thing keeping the Mormon Church from shrinking in terms of active membership is the birth rate. There's still like a, you know, decent sized birth rate amongst faithful believing Mormons in the U.S. and that very tiny birth rate is enough to offset all the people leaving. But by all accounts, the Mormon Church is growing at less than 1% in the United States, which is its slowest growth rate ever. And you know, just here in Utah there are stakes and wards and Mormon chapels being closed all the time. So if the church is in massive decline here in Salt Lake county and in many surrounding, just think about what it's like in Oklahoma, you know, or Arkansas or Oregon, California, the church is in decline full stop. And then, you know, in Europe, in Western Europe, the church is in free fall. Like it's shrinking, hemorrhaging, you know. So what the church does is it expands in the Philippines and Latin America and Africa to offset all the places in the developed world where it's in freefall. That's my, you know, if, if you believers, listeners don't agree with that, show me the numbers. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't mean to get a subtract.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:22] I think, I think one thing you bring up, John, that's interesting when you talk about, well, members would say, you know, whatever he wasn't willing to do the. It's like, well, the members will always, you know, give a representation of this sense of use. Like the church is not necessarily created for the members. Happiness and fulfillment. Fulfillment. Right. It's about more of it getting what it wants from its members. So for me, it almost doesn't even make sense to, to say that because really what this to me symbolically your journey in this moment was like you, you put, and I meant when I said it like you put a stake, you, you claimed your own life. It was like, yep, I get it. You, you might have a lot of plans for me, you have a lot of feelings about, you know, my salvation if I don't do what you say or your formula. And at this point I'm going to save myself and I'm claiming my life for me and I have a sense for what will make me happy and we'll see, like, we'll see how it. But I'm willing to take the risk and I'm actually going to drive my own car for my life. Right. As opposed to, and that I just feel like is worth noting.

Benson Lawson [02:30:44] Yeah. At this point, like I had been trying in the church for. On my own for like over a year now. I've been trying to be happy in the church, but it just wasn't working. I tried everything. I trusted in God for so long. I'd prayed for happiness for so long, but it just did not work. I knew that if I did literally anything else, I'd be happy. And all I wanted, honestly, was happiness while in the church. The motivation I had to stay in the church was to promise of eternal joy. But when I had that one question of are we really going to have eternal joy in heaven? That. That promise, that incentive kind of just got washed out.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:23] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:31:23] And. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:28] So. Yeah. So how you've already alluded to this, but talk about how your mental health and happiness and for purpose and fulfillment and your love life and your education has all progressed since making that very important decision. I have to say one last thing.

Benson Lawson [02:31:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:31:50] I had this. I had this aha moment once because when I was a missionary, there were like, slacker missionaries. And those of us who are good missionaries always look down on the slacker missionaries. And the people we really looked down on were the people that didn't go on missionaries. After I had my faith crisis and realized all the problems with the church, I thought to myself, what if the ones that didn't go on missions or the ones who hated their missions and weren't great missionaries just figured out that the church wasn't what it claimed to be 10 or 20 years before I did, and that's why they chose not to go, or that's why they hated their mission and were slackers. And it made me. It turned on its head, the stigmas that I had, realizing that some of the people that don't go on missions or hate their missions and don't excel are just smarter or figure it out earlier. Yeah, I just had to say that.

Benson Lawson [02:32:44] That's a good note.

John Dehlin [02:32:45] You like that?

Benson Lawson [02:32:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:46] You like that? Reframe?

Benson Lawson [02:32:47] Sure. Yeah. Prior to leaving to Eastern Oregon University, when I was still in Redmond at home for that summer, and when I didn't go on my mission, I had to tell everyone in my ward that I wasn't going on my mission. I had to tell all my church friends, and I lost lots of friendships. I lost a lot of respect from everyone. There was one of my seminary teachers asked me about my mission. I told him I wasn't going. And then rather than. This is like the one person who I am grateful for in the church who I talked to about my mission, but they. Rather than rebuking Me, they told me to come to seminary and share my story, which I think was huge. But they brought me in with two of my seminary friends from when I was in seminary, but in front of like the current seminary class at that time. The other two talked. They talked about where they were going, where they got called, and then I was up at the end. I'm like, well, I'm not going anymore. And I didn't really get an applause or anything. I didn't get anything grandiose. After I kind of stayed that my two friends didn't talk to me anymore that day. I haven't talked to them since. I've had lots of friends in the church just not talk to me. After I decided not to go, I told one that I'm not going. He told me, well, Benson, why would you do that? Like, obviously super disappointed me. I had one return missionary talk to me. And while this was. We were having an activity. It was like rope swinging or something. And naturally I was like shirtless to go swimming and my tattoo is visible. And we were like buzzed up until that point. He had just returned from his mission and he was trying to coerce me into going still. But then he saw my tattoo and he got real quiet. Like just that one little thing made him realize, I'm out, I'm done. And it's just another friendship I lost. When I talk to people in the church and tell them I left, it's like, oh, that's nice, but. Or that's good that you made that decision for yourself. But behind their voice, I can see the judgment. I can see the. The disappointment. And it's just really hurting to talk to these people that were once my friends, people that once respected me, people who I had bonds with, and they just don't respect me anymore. We're not friends anymore. They're connections I lost. And this was a very hard time where just kind of everything in the church broke down. And the church turned at this point from a place where I felt love and community to a place where I felt just judgment. I go and I felt judged. I felt eyes on me all the time. I felt like everyone was just looking at me, judging me, being disappointed in me. Because I was like mentioned way earlier, I was the Peter Priesthood. I was the role model for everyone. I wanted to be the role models for my brothers. And after not choosing to go on mission, it all broke down. And I felt like all the disappointment, all the shame, all the guilt I worried so much about, I accepted it all because I knew that Would be better than being depressed, better than hating my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:46] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:35:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you made that decision. You know, I think it was courageous. It was insightful, and ultimately, it was just really good for you.

Benson Lawson [02:36:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] That makes me so happy for you.

Benson Lawson [02:36:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Life After the Mission Decision and Moving to Oregon

Margi Dehlin [02:36:05] So when you. Can I ask, are we at the point where you would share a couple things about when you went to Oregon, in your experience, school there? Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:36:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:16] At that. Or is there anything left?

John Dehlin [02:36:18] Yeah. Is there joy or happiness after deciding not to serve a mission?

Margi Dehlin [02:36:21] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:36:22] So prior to going to Eastern Oregon University, at this point, I was on the track team, so I was doing, like, the track workouts on my own in Redmond, But a week before I left for LeGrand, which is where Eastern Oregon University is, it's a small university, only like 4, 000 people. That's one of Oregon's rural universities. That's an NAI school, which is, like, lower than D3, but it's really small. Really small community. But prior to going, about a week before I met, I reconvened with a friend from middle school. We were both in the band. We both played French horn. We were at opposing schools throughout middle school and high school. And we hit off really well. We started dating. Her name is Kaylee, and we're still together.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] And she's in the room.

Benson Lawson [02:37:12] She is in the room.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] She's waving.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:15] In this very room.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] In this very room.

Benson Lawson [02:37:18] Yeah. We hit off super well. And she is the least Mormon person you'll ever meet. Both of her parents are like hardcore atheists. She has a lot of tattoos, lots of piercings, colored hair. And I felt like just this life and all this color and all this uniqueness she had was just what I needed in a relationship. Because the Mormon mold of, like, a perfect girl who's just like me wasn't what I wanted. I wanted someone who was unique. I wanted someone to put color into my black and white. And I felt like that's what she did for me. And here's the bitter, bitter part of all this sweetness. We met like, a week before I left for LeGrand, so over that school year, we had to do long distance, but it worked out. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] Beautiful.

Benson Lawson [02:38:03] Yeah. And in the grand, I was super happy the whole time. It was a really good experience being on the track team because it was a small university. I made a lot of good friends. Something about it, though, I went. I tested out the warmer church there. Just went to see what it was like. I checked out the ysa. And there was a. So it was during Bastion Testimony meeting. Someone said that they can't imagine their life without the Mormon Church. And just hearing that just kind of reaffirmed that belief I had that I don't need the Mormon Church. I have other purpose now. I have my girlfriend, I have the track team I'm on. I have purpose beyond the church. That is enough for me. That's more than enough for me, honestly. And I don't need the church for my purpose. And that was like the last official church meeting I went to as a member, I'd say. And from that point, I spent my Sundays doing other things, like actually resting because they say Sunday is a day of rest, but is it really a day of rest for like stake presidents or bishops to spend all day at church, to spend all day in meetings? You wake up like what some people like 8:00am so you can get to your 9:00 church? Sunday is not a day of rest for Mormons, having been a Mormon for 18, 19 years of my life. So it's nice using Sunday as a day of rest now. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:36] Do you. Do you have a sense for a purpose now?

Benson Lawson [02:39:38] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:39] What, What.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] How would you describe that?

Benson Lawson [02:39:41] Like, I mentioned my girlfriend and while in Eastern Oregon University, it was track and I'm actually transferring out of Eastern Oregon University. Third transfer, third school, now Oregon State University. So I don't have to do long distance with my girlfriend anymore. But transferring has been rough. But my sense of purpose is definitely working towards a career, being with my girlfriend, and that's enough for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] How's your relationship with your dad?

Benson Lawson [02:40:08] My dad, it's really good.

John Dehlin [02:40:11] He had left the church. Did that put a strain between you?

Benson Lawson [02:40:14] It was kind of just like I didn't respect him for a while at all because he left the church. I worried about him a lot. But after I left, we had this thing in common. And his birthday last year, I actually bought him like a voucher for a tattoo and he got like a bunch of alcohol for his birthday. So it felt like this crazy juxtaposition between his old life and his new one. But yeah, my relationship with my dad is good now because we have that in common. The ex Mormon title.

John Dehlin [02:40:41] And you mentioned your. And you no longer look down on him.

Benson Lawson [02:40:45] Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:40:45] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:40:45] And I feel really bad for looking down on him at one point.

John Dehlin [02:40:49] You came by that honestly and then your mom in the church, in your path.

Benson Lawson [02:40:55] So my mom's story is a whole nother story. She could probably just a Little bit. She could come on here herself, honestly, if she wanted to.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] But in terms of your relationship with

Benson Lawson [02:41:06] her, yes, it's good. At this point, she's definitely on the fence herself. But like mentioned earlier, she just wants me to be happy. And no matter, like I told her I was coming on this podcast, she was super happy for me.

John Dehlin [02:41:17] Really?

Benson Lawson [02:41:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:18] She listener.

Benson Lawson [02:41:19] I don't think she listens, like, avidly, but she knows about it. She knew who you two were.

John Dehlin [02:41:23] Okay.

Benson Lawson [02:41:24] And she has a bunch. She has a good little community in the church. They call themselves the. The Hippos. I don't know why, but yeah, they. They were all super excited for me going.

John Dehlin [02:41:36] Like, they're all so active Mormons. Yes, we're excited. In Redmond in Oregon. We're excited that you were going on more of a story's podcast. I love this story.

Benson Lawson [02:41:46] Yeah. Like, they're super supportive with me talking about my experience because they all know, like, these people know my experience wasn't great. I got hurt. I got really hurt. And they're really excited for me talking about it. And most of these people stay in the church for the community, for the family, for the good beliefs, but they're the kind of more so pick and choose Mormons, the ones who stay in the church just for the good aspects of it. Yeah. And they're ones like, kind of actively fight against the things that are bad, like bishops talking to underage people about their sexual life and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:42:25] Yeah. And you say your mom's had some dating success in your outline.

Benson Lawson [02:42:30] So from the time my mom, my dad, broke up, she was alone for a while, and I really worried about her. She had, like, our dogs, and I felt like that was it sometimes. I was really worried about her.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] And she went out with both the Mormons in her area and the two.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:46] The two options.

John Dehlin [02:42:47] I'm kidding. But yeah, there was not a lot of dating options in the church.

Benson Lawson [02:42:52] No, not at all. And with me leaving the church, I really worried that she felt like a failure because I was a failure. She felt like. I worried that she felt like she raised me wrong, that she did something wrong, because there's definitely a sense of guilt that can be present in the parents of children who chose or chose not to go on a mission. And with my two brothers being. Having split custody, both of them are pretty inactive, honestly, because they're with my dad most Sundays who doesn't go to church ever. So I was worried that she had guilt there too, about them not attending church. And yeah. Point being, I Worried about her a lot. And then very recently she met a guy from her work, a fifth grade teacher at her work and never LDs, never LDs. I think he was raised Catholic, I believe, but they hang out a lot. And I was talking to her the other night and something she told me is that the sense of comfort, the sense of well being that she was looking for in the church that she missed in her marriage, she hadn't had this the past two years since the divorce and she found this sense of happiness with her new partner. Yeah. So point being, we have a good

John Dehlin [02:44:06] relationship right now and the church teaches wickedness never was happiness. And I think you could argue the church would believe that dating a non Mormon is not righteous. But again, you not serving a mission seems to have really improved your health and happiness. And your mom not trying to confine her dating pool to two Mormon men in her entire area. Dating a non Mormon, apparently that's bringing her happiness.

Benson Lawson [02:44:32] And there was a. I think in her ward there's only like one other Mormon guy her age who was single and he. She had no interest in him whatsoever.

John Dehlin [02:44:42] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:44:43] And she had. Or he had been reaching out to her like multiple occasions.

John Dehlin [02:44:46] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:44:47] The point which she had to go to the bishop and tell him to tell this guy to stop.

John Dehlin [02:44:50] Stop stalking me.

Benson Lawson [02:44:51] Yeah. I thought that was funny.

John Dehlin [02:44:55] Funny and dark. You make, you make a comment in your eyeline about the church not being built for people. Do you want to make that point?

Benson Lawson [02:45:02] Yeah. I mentioned this earlier or I alluded to it, I think. But my mom as a single mother, the church is built for families, built for husband and wife. And my mom as a single mother doesn't have full control over her kids all the time because my dad, ex Mormon, non Mormon, no church. She can't control whether they go to church all the time. And my bishop, or the bishop there, sorry, seeing that my two brothers aren't always going to church, asks questions, he's like, hey, where were they this Sunday? And he doesn't let them have active temple recommends because they don't attend church all the time. That's out of their control. That's out of my mom's control because split custody, just legal issues, deals with that. And being a single mother isn't or doesn't always work in the Mormon church because my mom doesn't have full control over whether or not my two brothers go to church. And. Sorry, that's all I got.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] No, can I just add, we talk a lot about the proclamation on the family being problematic and, and usually it's problematic from the standpoint of condemning gay, lesbian, transgender people. But another. This is reminding me of another major way. The proclamation on the family, which is the Mormon Church's statement on families, is deeply problematic. It literally says in there, a husband's role is to preside over the family and provide. And then it says a mother's job is to nurture the children. Now, how does your mom process looking at the Mormon Church's proclamation on the family? She doesn't have a husband in the home, so the husband's supposed to preside. He's not presiding, so it's not fitting that for her. And then the husband's supposed to be providing. Yet as far as I know, she's working. Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:46:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:55] And then her job's to nurture the kids, but not the husbands. The ex husband. And I'm sure your dad is providing, nurturing. So in what world does the proclamation on the family in, in its most core sense apply to your mom?

Benson Lawson [02:47:09] Well, not in this one, but when I was still in the house during high school and my parents were divorced, I felt like I took on the role of the priesthood holder in the house.

John Dehlin [02:47:18] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:47:18] And as far as blessings go, we'd have friends over to give those blessings.

John Dehlin [02:47:22] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:47:22] But as soon as I left, the household lost that priesthood authority because my brother, although he was old enough, the middle one, he wasn't an active priesthood holder. He didn't go to church that often.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:33] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:47:34] And it's also dumb.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] Why can't your mom give blessings? Why can't your mom preside? Why can't your mom.

Benson Lawson [02:47:39] Oh, she's a woman.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] I know, but. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:47:43] Yeah. I don't know. I think women should have priesthood power at this point. I mean, with how progressive the church has been over the past few years, there are some big things, I feel like that are bound to change in order to make the church succeed. But another big thing about priesthood power, there's a rule that missionaries can't be in the presence of like a female if there's not a priesthood holder around in the house. So my mom couldn't have the elders over anymore because she was a stay at home mom. And there's no, not stay at home mom. Sorry. A single mom. And there's no male in the house, priesthood holding mail to protect her from the two elders. Was it that she was going to seduce the missionaries or the missionaries were going to assault her? Like, what's the rule there?

John Dehlin [02:48:25] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:48:25] I don't know. And then so she had to take missionaries out to dinner? A lot.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:48:30] But you haven't had the missionaries over in months. Yeah, yeah.

Rebuilding Identity and Finding a New Routine

Margi Dehlin [02:48:35] I have a couple specific rebuilding questions for you.

Benson Lawson [02:48:37] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:39] One is you spoke briefly about this, but I'd love to know more detail about Sundays. So used to be, you know, Sundays were really church defined. Getting up, going to church. How would you. How are they different now?

Benson Lawson [02:48:56] Yeah, so I always woke up back in the day, like, early on Sundays. Everything was super regimented. But now I just sleep in. I do whatever I want. Frankly, like, Sunday is a day of rest. One of my favorite things to do right now is to go to a. Just like a local coffee shop, get something to drink, chill, and read for a few hours and then just, I mean, anything for the rest of the day. I really like the idea of having Sunday as a day of rest because rest is something that's definitely needed. And I found that after leaving byu, because at byu, I didn't give myself rest. I was still working so hard all the time, trying to be the best I could be, never resting. Yet I felt like. I felt more success in life, in every, like, professional, personal matter. When I get that rest I need on Sunday, just doing anything that my desires have used to.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:48] Yeah, that's great. Okay. Another question I have is early on, you spoke about really liking rules and a sense of structure to your days, like, routine. And it feels like, you know, up until recently, a lot of those rules and routines were kind of given to you through or at least were informed by the church in some way. What is your relationship to, like, rules and routines now? And what is working for you with regard to that? What update have you made?

Benson Lawson [02:50:25] Yeah, that's a good question. So at this point, as far as rules go, I don't have the word of wisdom or anything anymore, so I kind of just try to stay healthy. I like keeping my body in shape and working out a lot. As far as routine goes, I like working out at least, like, three days a week. I want to stay healthy, live a long life. And I mean, over the summer, I'm just working. That's my routine. I just go to work. I'm working two jobs right now. I'm a custodian for our local school district. And then I work at a food truck called the. The Mighty Greek Food Truck. If you're in central Oregon, check it out. The Mighty Greek Food Truck.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:00] We love Greek food.

Benson Lawson [02:51:01] Yeah, yeah. It's owned by some family, friends, so really good food. Yeah. So work is my routine over the summers. And then once school starts, it's really Easy to get routine. It's just classes and clubs and what have you. But I feel like my routines themselves, my rules are just a lot more free now that I've left the church, because I can do all these rules, all these routines without the lens of the Mormon Church. It's all on my own time. It's all based on what I want for my future and for my life. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:35] Okay. I just have a couple other ones.

Benson Lawson [02:51:37] All right.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:37] Okay. So I have a question around. It feels like within the church, we come to value ourselves in a certain way. Right. Like the overachieving perfectionism, following the prescribed path like you've described, where it's kind of like do all the things when you're young and then you have, you know, mission marriage. Right. There's like this very prescriptive way to have value or social currency in the church. So I was going to ask, is that something you have. Clearly you've let that go because you no longer, you know. But, you know, what for you, makes you feel valued? What makes you feel like you have value?

Benson Lawson [02:52:25] Yes, currently, as someone who's a perfectionist and overachiever as a kid and just throughout my whole teenage years, it's something that was definitely reinforced. So it's something that still kind of plagues me, I guess. I still try to always be doing something, just with the caveat that I leave Sunday as a complete day of rest. And I feel like that adds a bit more success in doing all these things. But. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:54] Yeah. Um, and then I was gonna ask you lastly, what inspires you lately?

Benson Lawson [02:53:01] Inspires me?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:02] Yeah. Like, is it learning? Is it nature? Is it, like, where do you feel a sense of feeling uplifted or inspired?

Benson Lawson [02:53:13] Okay. Yeah. So I guess there's places that make me feel happy, places that bring me inspiration. I mean, I work out a lot. I like running. I like running in nature. We've got a really nice canyon in Redmond. I like running through that. Like, working out, the gym. Feel like places like that, or working out is a place I can be alone with my thoughts. And I can get that same kind of meditation I get during prayer just by running. Just by working out, I can be alone. I can just be there with my thoughts. Additionally, like I mentioned earlier, reading at coffee places. I just finished Lemuz. That was a fun read.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] Victor Hugo. That's not a small book.

Benson Lawson [02:53:57] No, it was pretty big. It was like five months, I think, and I'm just starting the the Count of Monte Cristo.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Also not a small book.

Benson Lawson [02:54:05] I like big Books.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:08] That's a great book. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:54:09] And something I didn't touch on earlier, which I'd like to mention another book thing. I started reading Anne Rand's books, the Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, or the other two.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:18] Atlas Shrugged, Atlas Shrugged and then Anthem.

Benson Lawson [02:54:21] Anthem. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I read those three.

John Dehlin [02:54:23] Nose literature, I like to read.

Benson Lawson [02:54:26] Yeah, I read those three, and I read those while I was still Mormon. So I feel like the individualistic philosophy kind of gave me, again, that outside view beyond the Mormon Church. So reading is definitely a place where I find inspiration. That's a place where I like seeing people's stories, seeing ideas. It's definitely where I do, like, the most ruminating, I think.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:52] Thanks for that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:55] Well, I just want to say I can't thank you enough. Like, on the one hand, I have so many positive, I don't know, things I experienced or learned from my mission. I also had a lot of mission trauma. And I know on average, most ex Mormons that I talk to say they're glad that they served their mission. So, like, on the one hand,

Margi Dehlin [02:55:28] that.

John Dehlin [02:55:29] On the other hand, I just am really grateful that you're willing to come on, be so vulnerable, share your story, and most importantly, provide a role model or hope for people. And again, I. I would guess you're not opposed to people going on missions. You're not opposed to people being in the church. Yeah. Yeah. You wrote that in your outline. If somebody wants to be a believing Mormon, if they want to go on a mission. Awesome.

Benson Lawson [02:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:56] Which I think Margi and I agree as well. What people don't have are enough role models of people saying, you know what? I'm listening inside. This isn't working for me and I'm going to go a different path, even though it's hard. And then hearing that it can be okay. When you were saying at that one point, your stake president telling you you'll never be happy, you'll. You know, it's dark, you'll be miserable. I've seen this happen before. That just full stop is abusive language. Yeah.

Benson Lawson [02:56:27] The reason.

John Dehlin [02:56:27] Go ahead.

Benson Lawson [02:56:28] I'm a very mellow person. Like, very nonchalant. I don't show emotion much. But when he said that to me, that's like the first point in my life where I felt genuine and pure anger. Yeah. Like, I feel like my motivation for everything after that point was to be happy, to prove him wrong. And prove him wrong. I did. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:56:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason why that's abusive is because it's. It's abuser language. And an abusive partner is always going to tell their partner, number one, I'm abusing you. They're not going to say that they're abusing their partner. But then when the partner wants to leave, they're going to say, you'll never be happy without me. You can't be happy without me. You need me to be happy. Where will you go? You have no options. And that's just a classic abusive relationship.

Benson Lawson [02:57:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:15] And so I love. I'm grateful and really appreciate that you're willing to come on and give. Those who just are not feeling like the mission is going to be for them don't want to waste a couple of years or put their mental health at risk. You're standing up and saying, hey, I'm one. I'm one instance of somebody that has actually really benefited from declining my mission call or, in theory, not going on a mission at all.

Closing Reflections and Message to Struggling Members

Benson Lawson [02:57:41] And I really hope this reaches those people, those people in the church who are struggling just as I was. I really hope my message reaches them. My intended. My intended audience are those people who are just like me. Yeah. Hope this gets to them so they understand that life will be okay without the LDS Church, without their mission. I'm not saying you need to leave it. I'm not saying you don't need to go, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:08] That's right. That's right. And at this point, one thing I love, I think you said it in a podcast recently, John, the gift of this whole process you've been through is yourself. And the gift is the rest of your life. And that is just heartwarming because. How old are you?

Benson Lawson [02:58:30] 20.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:31] I mean, I'm here for it. And I can't wait to hear or touch base with you as you create a life.

Benson Lawson [02:58:42] Yeah. Before this, like, or before, as a Mormon, my life was very, like, I could see everything. I knew what it was going to look like. But now there's nothing. And that's great. Honestly, I have a world of opportunity ahead of me, and that's just super exciting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:59] That says it all. I think we should end there.

Benson Lawson [02:59:02] I'd like to add a couple of things.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] Okay. Please.

Benson Lawson [02:59:04] Just more about that, I guess on that there is a Mary Oliver quote from the poem.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] We're here for that.

Benson Lawson [02:59:11] The summer day.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:11] Yeah, I love summer day.

Benson Lawson [02:59:14] It's. Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? That quote reinforces what I just said. I didn't want to do with my life. The, the Mormon Church. I wanted what I wanted and now I'm working towards it. And then recently there's a song I've been listening to a lot. It's Future Days by Pearl Jamie. The line is I believe and I believe because I can see our future days, days of you and me. And I feel like I didn't see that in the church. I didn't see my future days at being happy. I just saw them being what the church wanted for me. And it's something I see now with my, with my partner, something I see with my relationship. I see future days of joy. And prior to that, my future was just built on faith. Faith and the hope that I'd be happy. And now I just know that things are going to work out better than they would have in the morning.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:11] Church, that's everything. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:15] So happy for you.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:16] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [03:00:17] Yeah. Anything else?

Benson Lawson [03:00:19] That's all.

John Dehlin [03:00:21] Well, thank you, Benson Lawson, so much for sharing your story with us and traveling to Utah.

Benson Lawson [03:00:27] Yeah, thank you. To tell your Mormon story was a fun trip.

John Dehlin [03:00:30] And Margi, thanks for, for being my co host.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:34] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:00:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Really quickly. We could not do this without the support of our donors. So if you're a donor, thank you. You make this possible. Our ad revenue is in free fall for whatever reason with the algorithm. So we've always relied on donor revenue to be what keeps us afloat. So if you're a donor, thank you. If you're not, we would any value this type of content, you think it could help people? We would really appreciate if you would consider going to mormonstories.org donate click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and we promise, you know our, our finances are transparent, we're tax deductible in the US and we do our best to spend your money in aligned with the mission of the open Source foundation. So please support us if you can financially. If you can't, don't worry at all. We still want to give this away for free. But there are ways you can help us either way. You can subscribe to this channel, you know, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, you can subscribe, even Patreon. You can like these episodes. You can comment on them, you can give us your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com you can share these episodes if you're aware of a young person who you sense isn't it's not going to be healthy for them to serve a mission and you think Benson's story might be helpful? Share this episode with them or with their parents, just so that people can know all the options and feel that there's hope and a path for them regardless. So sharing this episode is a way to help other people and help us. Anyway, thanks so much. We love people to apply. Benson, I think we found out about you because you applied to be on the show.

Benson Lawson [03:02:32] Yeah, I applied. It was a video interview. Just a little bit about myself and. Yeah, and Margi reached out to me and that was that.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] Yeah. So if you feel like you've got a story that you think would our audience would enjoy and benefit from, just go to mormonstories.org click on the application link or button, fill out the form. So Google form. And then you'll record a three minute video. You'll upload the video and share it with us. We can't accept every applicant because we get 1,000 a year and we only do, I don't know, 50 interviews a year. But we're always looking for new and good stories because, you know, we know they help people. So please apply right now. I'm just going to put out a call for it. For some reason, our application pool for like people above 40 has been a little bit less lately. So if you're 40, 50, 60, 70 and you've got a faith journey you want to share, kind of just the traditional Mormon story faith journey. We would love to have you apply. So please consider applying in any situation. But. But in that demographic, we would like some more applications, so please consider that. And we're always just interested in regular, everyday Mormon stories. So anyway, please apply if you want. Thanks for joining us today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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