Introduction and Welcome to Hannah Comeau

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1308

Guest [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're with.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 14, 2020, and we are still in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic. And as such, we are excited to be bringing you an interview that we're doing remotely. We are interviewing today Hannah Comeau, and Hannah has a really important story to share with us. Hannah was raised in Rexburg, Idaho, and she dealt with a topic, or let's just say a disorder that we've covered previously on Mormon Stories Podcast kind of a long time ago, but we haven't covered it in recent years. And more importantly, we haven't covered it from the perspective of a female perspective. So the topic that we're going to be covering today is called scrupulosity. Scrupulosity is a fancy word for religious obsessive compulsive disorder. It basically involves having intrusive thoughts around righteousness or worthiness and then some sort of compulsive behavior to neutralize the obsessive thoughts. Scrupulosity is more or most prevalent in highly high demand religious traditions like conservative Islam, conservative Judaism, conservative Christianity, and. And of course, it's no exception. Scrupulosity is very common within Mormonism. And it's particularly timely as well, because recently we interviewed Ryan and Holly Nielsen, who were both raised in BYU Idaho. Rexburg and Ryan worked as a BYU faculty, BYU Idaho faculty for over a decade. And so there's a scrupulosity religious OCD theme to today's episode and to the past couple episodes. But there's also kind of a Rexburg, Idaho theme of growing up in Rexburg, Idaho and going to BYU Idaho. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're really honored and excited to have Hannah Comeau with us. So, Hannah, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast.

Hannah Comeau [00:03:10] Yeah, no problem. I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] And I should note that I learned of you because you submitted a Thrive profile. So, just to briefly explain, we have this new project called the Thrive Beyond Orthodox Mormonism Project, where we're asking progressive Mormons and post Mormons to answer about 30 questions regarding their faith transition, their time in the church, their faith transition and their awakening and where they are now, what they believe now, et cetera. Hannah, you submitted a lovely profile to the Thrive Project, and if anybody goes to mormonstories.org thrive they can read her profile There, along with right now, nine other amazing humans. And that's how I learned about you, Hannah. And that's where I learned about your story. So thank you for submitting a Thrive profile.

Hannah Comeau [00:04:03] Of course. I actually had a great time writing it, so. My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] And you're a great writer.

Hannah Comeau [00:04:09] Thanks. I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] I should also mention that you're joining us from Charlottesville, Virginia. You are in law school at UVA, which is one of the top, I don't know, 10 law schools in the country, as I understand it.

Hannah Comeau [00:04:23] Yeah. Yeah. So right now, I believe it's ranked number eight, but, yeah, so I'm in my first year of law school right now, kind of finishing up that online, unfortunately, due to coronavirus. But it's been a great experience so far.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Well, great. Well, we're excited to have you. We've got some Facebook Live listeners joining us. We welcome any of them to make comments or questions during this interview. Most people will listen to this either later on with an MP3 player or on YouTube, but let's dive right in. So, Hannah, tell us about your kind of Mormon upbringing and weave into it scrupulosity and your religious experiences. As you wish, but maybe. Let's begin. Do you want to start by sharing your intention, like, why you're doing this episode and what you hope to accomplish with this episode?

Why Hannah Wanted to Share Her Story

Hannah Comeau [00:05:19] Yeah, no, I'd love that. So the reason I want to do this mainly is because I didn't know about scrupulosity. I'd been dealing with it my whole life. I didn't really know about it until just a couple years ago. And. And from interactions I've had with other people, it seems like much more of a common thing than maybe people realize. And so I just kind of want to bring awareness to that and also to the mental health a little bit also. I just want to make sure that I am very clear about this, about this being my experience and my story, and that the conclusions that I've come to, you know, based on my experiences are mine. And they're not to say that everyone else should come to those same conclusions. I also want to emphasize that my. So I'm the only one in my family who has gone kind of through this faith transition and ended up leaving the church. I actually. I have a fantastic relationship with my family. We get along so well, and we're able to have really important discussions concerning this subject. And so I just. I just want to be kind of an advocate for, I guess, putting the relationship first over anything which my family and I have been able to accomplish with great success so far. And so, yeah, I think those are kind of my intentions with this.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] I love it. And, yeah, we never want to bash religion or believers, and we're not trying to convince anyone to leave the church with Mormon stories. Our goal, when we do things well, is just to allow people to share their stories. And in this case, we want to alleviate anxiety, depression, suicidality. We want to address mental health problems and just help orthodox Mormons, progressive Mormons, and post Mormons just be healthier. And that's kind of my intention. So let's launch right in. Hannah, tell us about your Mormon upbringing.

Growing Up Mormon in Rexburg, Idaho

Hannah Comeau [00:07:30] Yeah, I'd love to. So I have lived in Rexburg since I was 6. I was born in Michigan, actually, where my dad went to medical school. I have a few memories out there. Not really much, but, yeah, most of my childhood, I remember being in Rexburg. We had a great childhood and a great time growing up there, actually. You know, so I'm the oldest of three. I have a younger brother and a younger sister, and we just have all sorts of fun together, including my parents. We just love to laugh a lot, and we have. We have good fun together. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] So. So a lot of times. A lot of times I just kind of like to review very quickly kind of the traditional Mormon kind of practices. You know, family prayer, scripture study, you know, weekly church attendance, you know, word of wisdom, law of chastity, stuff. Like, to what extent was your family like a classic, traditional, orthodox Mormon family?

Hannah Comeau [00:08:39] Yeah, I think very. I mean, very traditional in, like, kind of. Kind of the sense of the word. I mean, we. We did have family scripture study. We had family home evening. It wasn't. We went through kind of phases where, you know, we would do it very, very frequently, and then that would kind of fade a little bit, especially as we got older. You know, we got. We got busy with certain. Certain things, and we tried to make that a priority. But, yeah, my parents did, I would say, a great job of not only raising us in the church, but of teaching us important values that are, yes, like, related to the church, for sure, but also kind of carried beyond that a little bit. And so we were traditional, I would say, in that sense. But at the same time, I think especially my parents focused really well on living by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] That's great.

Hannah Comeau [00:09:41] Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, we went to church every Sunday. Had, for the most part. I mean, I had great experiences there. Very, very strange, of course, because Rexburg is very concentrated. I actually did watch Holly and Ryan's episode and like, my goodness, I related so much to so many things they said in there. So anyways, yeah, Rexburg is definitely interesting for sure.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] So let's talk about that. So I. It probably in my less, maybe, maybe in my more, I don't know, frivolous moments, I refer to Rexburg as kind of like. I don't want to say this, I'm just going to say Rexburg. Let's just say Rexburg is, along with maybe Provo, is known within Mormonism as being one of the most conservative cities or towns in all of Mormonism, like 90 plus percent Mormons. And I guess Rexburg and BYU Idaho kind of takes Provo almost to the next level in terms of how conservative it can be. Now you live there. I just hear about it. Tell us to what extent Rexburg and byu. Let's start with Rexburg. Rexburg really is extra conservative Mormonism. And if you have examples of that, I'd love to hear it.

Hannah Comeau [00:11:01] Sure, yeah. No, I would say that absolutely. That's a pretty accurate statement. Not to say. I mean, there are so many good things about it too. And not necessarily that that's a negative thing. Especially when you're growing up in the church and all of your friends believe the same things that you do. Everything like that. Yeah, no, So I guess. Yeah.

Life in an All-Mormon Community

John Dehlin [00:11:26] So what's it like living in an all Mormon town in Idaho?

Hannah Comeau [00:11:30] Well, frankly, I actually don't know any different. So I mean, it was normal for me. That's just kind of.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] So like, all your friends at school, do they talk about church? Are all your friends at church, your friends at school? Is there a lot of bleeding in between church and state?

Hannah Comeau [00:11:47] See, that's actually really funny because I just. That's so normal to me that I don't think that's like a thing to talk about because that's just how it was. But no, I just remember like, for example, you know, on Halloween people would dress up as missionaries and, you know, that was just a normal thing. Yeah. So definitely had some good times with that.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Would all of your neighbors have been Mormon? Would your neighbors have all been pretty much Mormon?

Hannah Comeau [00:12:19] Yes. Yeah, very much so. So honestly, I can think of one good friend I had in high school and junior high that was not Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Mm.

Hannah Comeau [00:12:33] Yeah. Yeah. And so every. Everyone was. It's just we always thought it was funny because there are, I think six different stakes in Rexburg and the population is so. It's a small town. It's really Tiny.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] How many. How many people? Do you know the population of rexburg?

Hannah Comeau [00:12:50] I'm not 100% sure.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] I'll look it up. I'll look it up.

Hannah Comeau [00:12:53] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:12:54] So.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] But six snakes, that's like six. That's like, let's just say 50 Mormon congregations in a town of 28,000 people.

Hannah Comeau [00:13:04] So, for instance, my family and my husband's family, we. I can drive from my family's house to his family's house within about five minutes, and we're, like, completely in different wards and everything. So.

Early Signs of Scrupulosity and OCD

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Okay, so a traditional Mormon upbringing with parents that focused on spirit of the law, not just the letter of the law. What do you want to say about when your scrupulosity symptoms maybe first started appearing?

Hannah Comeau [00:13:38] Yeah, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Or any parts of your early story or family story that you think are important background for eventually talking about scrupulosity?

Hannah Comeau [00:13:50] Yeah, so I did want to emphasize that. So I brought up that my parents are very kind of. Kind of open about, like, teaching. Teaching us and practicing the spirit of the law and not focusing so much on those rules and everything, because, like, I feel like it's a good place to kind of contrast my personal experience with how I thought about religion with what they actually taught us and how they practiced it. And so I think it's just, like I said, paints kind of an interesting backdrop.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] It almost sounds like you're saying your parents aren't to blame, which I think is a really important place to start. OCD is something that is biological in nature. It's an anxiety disorder that comes from your brain. And you can have OCD with strict parents in a strict religion. You can have OCD with no religion and with really laxed parents. And so at no point would we ever want your parents to be in any way responsible for what you experience. And it sounds like that's kind of what you're trying to set up. Is that right?

Hannah Comeau [00:15:02] Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's just. It's just really interesting because they tell me stories now about when I was younger. And looking back on it, I mean, it makes total sense. I mean, back then, we had no idea what it was for sure. So I guess the main thing I can think about with that is kind of my first memory a little bit was when I was baptized, when I was 8. So my dad actually told me this story a while ago, and I just thought it was interesting. So I've heard a lot of people, you know, make a comment about how maybe 8 years old isn't old enough to make an informed choice about getting baptized or things like that. And I'm not here to say like that's a correct or incorrect opinion or anything, but for me, I actually felt like I did make a very informed choice when I was 8. So I did kind of all the stuff that they recommended. I met with my bishop. I read the Book of a Mormon while I was seven in preparation for that.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] That's early.

Hannah Comeau [00:16:10] Yeah, I did. So my dad actually told me that like him and I would have so many conversations about what getting baptized meant. It wasn't just kind of something I. Well, I knew it was something I should do and something I thought I should do, but I wanted to be like ready for that and know what I was committing to at that point. And he actually, like, they had to. My parents had to comfort me a lot in reassuring me that like getting baptized doesn't mean that like I'm going to have someone in heaven. Literally keeping a tally of everything I do at that point, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] Worried about that?

Hannah Comeau [00:16:54] Oh yeah, Yeah. I was so afraid my actual baptism experience ended up being good. But leading up to it, I had so much fear in regard to it because, you know, you get baptized and you hear that your sins are washed away and you're made clean and then I guess it's just. And then you have to of course, be worthy for that and you have to have a testimony. And what if these thoughts would just come? Like, what if, I don't know, know for sure or things, things like that. And so I had a lot of fear of making mistakes after getting baptized. And so it took me several months to come to the decision that I did want to get baptized. And my family and my bishop at the time helped me work through that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] And if it's okay if I just add this was I have, I've studied scrupulosity as part of my master's thesis for my psychology Ph.D. and I've published, I've done research and published on scrupulosity. So forgive me for listeners for jumping in here. The origin of the word scrupulosity as I understand it is the word scruples, which somehow going back its origins, tied to the idea of sharp rocks, which is kind of a weird origin unless you understand what the tie is. And it basically means super conscientious. Right? And, and so what you're explaining is as a seven year old kid, you're not just like, oh, I want cake and oh, I want to get baptized to make mommy happy. You would have heard that, you know, there's this idea of sin and this idea of right and wrong and this idea of a judgment. And so instead of just, like, getting baptized, you would have been like, oh, my gosh, I'm not sure. Am I righteous enough? Am I going to be able to live up to all, you know, highly conscientious? Is that. Does that sound right?

Hannah Comeau [00:19:00] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, for sure. And, you know, something good that comes with that, I think, is I've always been very thoughtful about my actions and the decisions I've made in my life. So, I mean, I'm trying to get to this point where there are a lot of benefits that do come with certain tendencies with mental illness. And so that's one of them, I think.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] So highly conscientious can be a great thing because it means you. Maybe you're a great student, maybe you're really honest, maybe you're really hardworking and conscientious, and it can mean you're wracked with torment.

Hannah Comeau [00:19:34] Yes, yes. So pros and cons, for sure. But that is something that my parents did, like, actually say that they noticed about me very, very early on, is I was very, very thoughtful in the actions I took. They could also see that I was struggling with something, for sure. I wasn't very vocal about it because I thought that this is how everyone perceived the world, I guess, if that makes sense. So I didn't think it was anything to share, if it's okay. Really quick. I actually have an interesting way of, like, describing the feeling of having these obsessive thoughts and compulsions. Okay. So I was trying to explain this to my husband because sometimes it's hard for other people to maybe fully understand the extent to which this goes. So we've all had that experience where you wake up from a really lucid dream, and in, like, those 20 seconds, you kind of know that it was a dream and it's not real, but your mind is convinced that it is real, if that makes sense. Like. Like, you're just so sure. And it takes you about 15 to 20 seconds to kind of be like, okay, no, that's not real. So with the intrusive thoughts in ocd, especially with scrupulosity, in my circumstance, it's not the same for everyone, but there are common threads. So I describe it as having that feeling but lasting for, like, weeks and months on end about a certain topic. So when I was convinced that there was this angel who would be taking notes on what I did after I got baptized, I kind of like, People could explain it to me all that they wanted, that that wasn't how it worked. But like, in my head, I'm like, it kind of is how it works. Like, I would convince myself of that, and it kind of. It just felt like that moment after waking up from a dream where you just don't know for sure what's real

John Dehlin [00:21:41] and what's not real.

Hannah Comeau [00:21:43] So. Yeah. And the only way to then get rid of it is to perform certain compulsions and that can alleviate those fears.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] So that's the. So the OCD has the O and the C. The O are the obsessive or the intrusive thoughts, and the C are the compulsive behaviors that are performed to neutral. Neutralize the obsessive thoughts. So can you. So. And I'm. And they can evolve over time. Your intrusive thoughts can evolve over time, and your compulsive behaviors can evolve over time. So talk about your early. You've already talked about it, but maybe go one level deeper. So you're 9, 10, 12 year old girl, Mormon girl. What are the intrusive thoughts that you're battling with every single day? Give us some examples.

Hannah Comeau [00:22:28] Sure. So I would say that the first, I mean, the first memory I can kind of relate to, this is the story I shared about, like, when I was baptized. This got increasingly worse throughout my teenage. Throughout my older childhood and young teenage years. So, okay, this example might seem, like, extreme, but it's okay. I think it illustrates kind of perfectly what. What the brain can deal with. Okay. So I had. I developed this fear of breaking the word of wisdom when I was probably about 11. I had no intention of doing that, of course, like, you know, but somehow, and it's hard to explain for people who, like, don't experience these connections, but I got to the point where I would walk through a grocery store, I would see alcohol just, you know, down the grocery store aisle, and somehow I would get from that point to thinking I had broken the word of wisdom. And I mean, people listening are probably like thinking, how could you get from point A to point B? Like I said, it's kind of that feeling of have consciousness. Like your brain will literally convince you that you have done something when a thought is placed there. At least that's been my experience with scrupulosity. And so for several years, I became very, very frightened of anything to do with the word of wisdom. It was kind of a traumatic experience for me when I found out that vanilla contained alcohol in it. You know, things like that. I spent the Good. Part of a couple years after everyone in my house had gone to bed, I would check all of my family's refrigerator and pantry items to make sure that we didn't have any alcohol in the house.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] And this is, that's a compulsive behavior. So that's the C part. So you're checking. In this case, you're the ruminating, which is one form of compulsion and then checking is another form. And so you're like constantly going through the house seeing if there's alcohol or anything like it, right?

Guest [00:25:01] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:25:02] And the interesting thing is, I mean I had, I didn't really have a rational basis for forming these thoughts. Yeah, no, if anyone knows my parents, you know, they have never broken the word of wisdom or anything like that. That just wasn't a thing. And so yeah, so I had a, I had trouble with this, the scripture that says something like that man looks on the outward appearance. God looks at the intent of your heart. And so how I interpreted that as any thought that pops into my head reflects the intent of my heart. And so when I wasn't actually committing any sin, I had convinced myself that I did essentially, you know, and that's hard to carry because if you visualize something, if you see a bottle of wine or something at the store, that thoughts gonna pop into your head because it's an object that's in your frame of vision. So that's, that's the struggle.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] And what's complicated there, there's Mormon scripture or Christian scripture that will say things like, you know, as a, as a man thinketh, so is he. Or if you even think it in your heart, you've almost committed it. Like there are scriptures that reinforce this idea that just to have the lust in your heart, you have almost already committed the sin. And so there are scriptures that reinforce. And again, a normal, let's just say non anxiety prone religious person or Christian or Mormon is just going to look at that and go, okay, I need to be careful with my thoughts. Or. But, but someone who has an anxiety disorder or a scrupulosity is going to be hyper fearful that they're going to have impure thoughts, which is almost as bad as actually doing the thing. And then the irony comes that the more you try and control your thoughts, the more you have the thoughts and the worse your thoughts become. And so it becomes this vicious cycle. Now tell me if that applies to you or not.

Hannah Comeau [00:27:11] Oh yes, absolutely, 100%. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] And I'll just say because I did, you know, with my, with my Master's thesis, some of the different flavors. So if you go broad with ocd, there's checking, where you're always checking to see if you turn the stove off or if you turn the lights off or if you lock the door. There's safety, which is always worried about, you know, someone's health, like stopping in your car because you're worried you ran over something when you really didn't even come close to that. There's cleanliness, where you're always washing your hands or always scrubbing the floor. There's counting, where you're always trying to count things. And even there's hoarding, which is where you're never wanting to let go of any of any, you know, things that you possess. These are all some of the main categories of obsessive compulsive disorder. And then scrupulosity is another one of those categories. And then within scrupulosity, I've seen all sorts of different manifestations from a school teacher who was constantly worried that she was abusing her kids, her students in school, but she never wanted to abuse them. She never, like, ever did anything close to abusing them. She just always had the intrusive thought that she was going to, or, oh my gosh, when my arm brushed up against that child, maybe I meant to touch them when she never did. But it's her ruminative thoughts that would have made her fear that she did. Another example would be the missionary that I interviewed on Mormon Stories years ago who was always worried about having sexual thoughts. And he would hyper confess to the bishop, oh, I had this thought, I had that thought. And the bishop's like, look, if I had to interview everyone who had a sexual thought every day, I'd never have any time for myself. You're okay.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:03] I.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] But this, but this person I interviewed just couldn't deal with this idea that even a thought was a sin. And where it becomes really complex is in the example of, let's just say someone who actually does not experience attraction to the same sex. So they are heterosexual in that sense, but they have the intrusive thought that they are gay or lesbian. And so they aren't sure if they gay or lesbian, which is very different from actually having same sex attraction or experiencing same sex attraction or attraction to the same sex. They have OCD or scrupulosity around the fear that they are same sex attracted. So I just wanted to give people kind of a flavor or a sense for the topography of scrupulosity as it manifests within a Mormon context. Now, tell me any and all that you want to add or remove from what I just said.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:57] Sure. Yeah. No, that's great. Something I wanted to emphasize that for people who have ocd, it can change forms. It's not gonna. It's not necessarily gonna manifest in the same way throughout your life. So I don't deal with scrupulosity anymore. I've largely overcome that, however, in different areas of my life. Like it shifted to hyper responsibility, for instance. That's a big one I had where I felt very responsible for other people's feelings or misfortunes that came their way. I somehow tied that to actions that I had done. And then, you know, I would try to mitigate those in some way before they happened or somehow after they happened, things like that. And. Oh, interesting actually. So I feel like this is kind of a story where my scrupulosity and hyper responsibility OCD come into, like, come together. So I had an interesting relationship with the Holy Ghost. You would get. So I learned that, you know, you get promptings from, from the Holy Ghost to like, do certain things and like, you know, you have to have the courage to follow the prompting and things like that. So for me, it was always hard to distinguish whether that was my own thoughts or something I was supposed to do. And then when I wouldn't, maybe wouldn't do it or follow the prompting, whether it was a prompting or not, I don't know. I then have a hyper responsibility type of reaction. So if I were. If I felt prompted to go say hi to someone that I saw across, across the grass or something and I didn't do it, then I would, I would for days just think about, like how because I didn't do that, this person is now going to be hurt or they're going to, you know, something tragic is going to happen to them because I didn't follow that prompting. And so that was. That was very interesting. So I usually tried to like a lot of thoughts that popped into my head, I tried to act on because of that. And yeah, it was very, very interesting.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] And so that, you know, that's interesting for someone who knows you because you're coming up to them and saying, hey, I have this prompting of this or that. It could just be your brain generating random thoughts, but because you don't have a way to reliably distinguish between random thoughts your brain generates and the Holy Ghost, you come across to others as kind of this weird, maniacal, always mentioning things person, you're doing it to make sure you don't sin or make a mistake. But to them, they're like, who is this person? Why is she bothering me to telling me this? Is that right?

Hannah Comeau [00:33:06] Yeah, no, exactly. That's pretty much 100% accurate. Yeah. No, it was just very, very strange thing to navigate. And that was. That was like my whole life. And, you know, for a lot of people, if you don't follow a prompting, then it's like, oh, you know, like, try it, try again next time. God's not gonna let this person get hurt because you weren't there to, you know, fulfill that at the time. And people can just kind of move on from that and be like, oh, okay, like, maybe next time I will do that. For me, I was convinced that the person was going to get hurt somehow or. And it was like, for days. It wasn't just a fleeting thought either. It was days and days and days of that and many panic attacks over it. And so it became. It came to this point where it was either act on this prompting or feel miserable that you've hurt this person. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah, and then if you take the religious thing, like, and we had an ex missionary talk about how he was taught that if he masturbated, he wouldn't have the spirit, so he wouldn't be able to bring people to the gospel. Then when you tell someone with scrupulosity that and they accidentally can't stop masturbating or whatever, then to them it's like they're keeping people out of heaven. They're literally damning people's souls. And. And that just, you know, he talked about wanting to actually cut off his penis. And I don't mean to be graphic, but he actually talked about wanting to cut off his penis because he was so racked with torment about keeping people out of heaven because he couldn't stop masturbating as a missionary. And this is where I want to maybe branch into. You've given us a flavor for the obsessions and some of the compulsions. Talk, you know, and somebody may go, oh, that's kind of cute. You confess too much, or, oh, you annoy people a little bit. The truth is, OCD and scrupulosity is highly associated with severe anxiety, severe depression. It's a real problem. So talk about how this isn't just some kind of light, fun, quirky thing. How does it start to settle into your adolescence in terms of your anxiety and depression and your ability to function.

Hannah Comeau [00:35:31] Yeah, no, I like that you bring up that point, because it is very, very true. I definitely, into my teenage years, developed Severe depression and anxiety. And then into my early adulthood, I actually developed panic disorder because I was so afraid of leaving my house to do things where I might maybe hurt other people or I became so fearful of, I don't know, just these actions I could take that could have a certain effect on people, that I would stay home and I would have panic attacks when I went out. Because of that, it comes to a point where it really can control your life. So there are. I mean, there are some quirky things for sure, but it's beyond that. It's a thing that controls your life. And, you know, something interesting, you were talking. You were talking about how the missionary had this problem thinking he was keeping people. People out of heaven. I had something exactly like that when I went to the temple. And that's how my temple experience was, you know. And again, I want to say my church leaders and my parents did such a good job of teaching me that you don't have to be perfect to enter the temple. You have to, you know, you just have to be trying your best and, you know, things like that. But that aside, that's not how my brain worked. And so I would be sitting there in the temple waiting to do baptisms for the dead and, you know, have this, like, horrible feeling that I shouldn't be there. And now the baptisms that I'm going to be doing as proxy for these people who have been waiting years and years and years for this aren't gonna count, and they're gonna miss their opportunity to, you know, progress in the way that I believed. And that was just very hard for me and very, very, very traumatic. And so I can definitely relate to that type of feeling. And, yeah, it's hard to explain it without actually having gone through it. Yeah. I don't know. I have no words for it.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] And for people who don't understand or have never had a panic attack, a panic attack literally feels like you're going to die. So imagine having anxiety so severe that you want to go to the hospital because you think you can't breathe or having a heart attack and you want to die. So, again, this isn't just quirky personality stuff. This is stuff that can make you so depressed or anxious that you either sometimes, in really severe cases, want to die or feel like you're going to die. Very serious stuff.

Hannah Comeau [00:38:35] Yes. Yes. I have dealt with panic attacks for many, many years. I still get them on occasion. That's something that comes with having an anxious brain. You learn methods to cope with it, for sure. But, yeah, I know this will come later, but, you know, I got to the point where when I was engaged and preparing to go to the temple for the first time and get my endowments, I had at least four, if not more panic attacks per week. Like, and like, it became. Yeah, it became unlivable and completely impractical. Impractical for living everyday life.

Guest [00:39:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] Yeah. Okay. So is there anything else about your teen years? Any stories, any, you know, examples of obsessions or compulsions or interactions with church leaders or friends or at school or with family that are important parts of your story?

How Scrupulosity Shaped Every Area of Church Life

Hannah Comeau [00:39:48] Yeah. So I would say, I just want to emphasize that, like this, the scrupulosity and like the perfectionism applied to pretty much every single area of the church for me. So I, and this is probably, you can probably guess this, but I majorly overpaid my tithing all the time. I would be fearful that I had forgotten somehow. I would count and recount it to make sure it was the correct amount and then give extra just in case. So. And it wasn't always just like, oh, here's an extra dollar. You know, when I was, when I was on my own and first in college, I. It actually had some pretty significant impacts on my finances to the point where I was paying so much that I couldn't always afford what I needed at that point. So there are, yeah, a lot of things. And the hard part about that is I always had trouble with the question of, you know, the temple recommend question of are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men? As you can see, that's the worst

John Dehlin [00:41:05] question for someone's curiosity. Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:41:07] Oh, it's so bad. And so, and so I felt, I felt like if I over compensated for things, I could always answer that question, yes, to the best of my ability, when that of course is not necessary. And you know, I even learned that from other, from other people. But I had trouble convincing myself that that was the truth and that's how things were. So.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] And if I can just jump in again with some psychoeducation. Part of the complexity with scrupulosity is if somebody is, let's just say, hyper washing their hands and their hands are all chapped, the people around them are going to recognize, oh, wow, this isn't healthy for you. We need to get you help. In a religious context, if you're hyper studying the scriptures or hyper praying or hyper going to the temple or hyper paying your tithing instead of people around you or even you yourself identifying this as a problem or a disorder, you can be positively reinforced by your peers for your righteousness. And so instead of getting help and seeking treatment, your whole context, family, friends, church, are all going, oh, wow, Hannah's extra righteous. Hannah's super special. She's one of the really noble and great ones. And that can actually make your symptoms worse. Tell me if that was relevant in your case at all.

Hannah Comeau [00:42:37] Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And you know, it's interesting because I mentioned before that with all mental, Mental illness there comes some positive traits for that. And I did have some of those positive things. I was very conscientious. I was, you know, I did, I really thought about things and you know, people were meaning very, very well by complimenting me for those things. But, but with, for someone with scrupulosity and ocd, you attribute those things to those obsessive thoughts you have and then performing those compulsions. And so, so even when people meant very, very well by that, you know, it sometimes had damaging effects because it would just reinforce that cycle over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] Yeah, that's super hard. And there's no education about this. Bishops don't know about it. Ward members don't know, Parents don't know. Most people have never heard the word scrupulosity.

Hannah Comeau [00:43:37] Still, no. And you know, the interesting thing is it actually took me a while to get this diagnosis because, first of all, I was afraid to bring things up, you know, in therapy out of, you know, being perceived as I had done something wrong. And like, that's a whole other story. But, you know, I never thought that I had any type of OCD related symptoms. The one you often hear of is compulsive hand washing and. Yeah. And excessive cleaning. And that's actually a very, very, very common manifestation of ocd. Interestingly enough, I have never manifested my OCD in that manner. But like you were saying earlier, there are so many different categories of that where it wasn't as obvious to people. You know, like, not at all. Like you say, yeah, people can see the hand washing.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] And the idea is that ocd, there's something complex about scrupulosity. Even though it has a higher prevalence rate in high demand religions, it's not accurate to blame the religion for the ocd. I talked about that earlier. But the way that it works is in your brain. The OCD attacks the things that you care about most. So if you happen to care most about cleanliness, or care most about safety and, or care most about order, physical order, or things, then it's going to attack you in those manifestations. If it just so happens that religion is the most important thing to you, then the OCD is going to attack your religiosity. And that's why you, you won't be necessarily experiencing OCD and all these other domains. It's because it really was the spirituality and the religion that you cared most about. Does that make sense?

Hannah Comeau [00:45:36] Yeah. Yep. That's. Yeah, you said it.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] And I'll just, I'll throw in a comment from our dear friend Kimberly Anderson. She writes, this is how the LGBTQ kids managed to hide for so many years. The blindingly perfect scrupulosity means you are beyond reproach. Hannah is awesome. Freaking awesome. And yes, scrupulosity is super common in LGBTQ Mormon youth. And they're often the most righteous. The seminary presidents, the AP's on the mission, and they're hiding their same sex sexuality behind hyper religiosity. And this is partly maybe why in some instances, there's high level of suicidality within some Mormon youth. It's often tied to the perils of hyper religiosity and perfectionism in our culture.

Hannah Comeau [00:46:34] Yeah, no, I agree with that. I actually wanted to say. So one of my really, really great friends right now in law school, she grew up in Utah and she's part of the LGBT community. And so we kind of share in some of those scrupulosity tendencies. She had comments from so many people, you know, about how, how righteous she was and, you know, things like that. And so I can definitely see that manifesting in lgbt. And that's LGBT community for sure.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] Yeah. Okay, so let's get back to your story. So how is this, how is this, how does your story continue?

Receiving a Patriarchal Blessing at Fifteen

Hannah Comeau [00:47:15] Okay, so I. Let's see. So I got my Pedro Patriarchal blessing when I was 15. That was very interesting and actually it was a really special experience to me. But of course from that came, you know, fear based on. So they tell you, you know, these blessings are possible for you if you live a worthy life and if you keep the commandments and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] So then real quick, for a non Mormon, for a never Mormon, explain really quickly what a patriarchal blessing is.

Hannah Comeau [00:47:52] So, a patriarchal blessing, usually Mormons get these when they are teenagers, kind of between the ages of 12 to 19 or so, just depending. You can kind of choose when you want to get it. But it's a special blessing that you get from a priesthood leader that it's actually kind of a special thing. I think it's supposed to be God talking directly to you. It's like your own personal scripture giving you promises and blessings, so long as you keep the commandments and live a righteous life. I actually think it's really pretty cool thing.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] And what are some of the promises you were. If you're, if you're comfortable sharing, I can give some as well. But if you want to share your promise things like, yeah, I was.

Hannah Comeau [00:48:43] I mean, I was promised that I would find a worthy priesthood holder, I would be married in the temple. I was promised that my family would stay safe and healthy through times that were, you know, gonna happen before the second coming, and that I didn't need to worry and that if, you know, I had. I had faith and trusted in that God would protect me from those things. It actually, there's a lot of things in mind in particular that helped with my anxious mind a little bit in regard to that. Yeah. So those are just a few, A few of the things from my experience.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] So you got your patriotical blessing. How did that, how did that, how was that for you?

Hannah Comeau [00:49:29] So, yeah, the experience itself was actually, was really, really great for a while until you read into it a little bit more and it says, you know, these promises are contingent upon you living a worthy life. And so I had a very, very black and white way of thinking, which is very common for someone dealing with OCD and scrupulosity. In fact, that's like the only way you think. And so I was under the impression that if I messed up or sinned, that the opposite of these blessings would happen in my life. So it says something about having a successful marriage. I would. I took that as, wow, well, now if I don't meet this high standard, then I'm gonna have an unsuccessful marriage or I'm, you know, all these bad, negative things are gonna happen. So instead of appreciating maybe the positive aspects that could have come from it, yeah, it became another one of those. Yet another one of those experiences for me that reinforced this idea, reinforced the intrusive thoughts and the compulsions related to that. About this time, I'd say maybe like a year after that is when I started getting really bad panic attacks because of it. And. Yeah, so it ended up being something that was another source of fear for me when it could have, I think, been special.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] And it's worth mentioning that being a teen is hard enough, right? It's hard enough just to deal with your identity and your body changing and hormones and all these things on top of it, a significant disorder, right. That's causing panic attacks and anxiety. It can be just a terrible thing. And usually OCD does manifest after puberty. And so it's just a really, really hard thing for a teenage person, girl or boy or other gender identity to experience.

Hannah Comeau [00:51:41] Yep. Yeah, for sure. And I would say my OCD definitely did manifest at a very, very young age. But it was kind of in those teenage years that it did get to a much more significant place. And it took up much. A much higher priority, I guess, in my life. That's definitely the point where it, I think, maxed out for sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] Right.

Guest [00:52:29] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to use this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jose oh, your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll have let's tell a tale oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. And should we die before our journey's through happy day all is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus well. Oh, all is well all is well all is well all is well all

John Dehlin [00:56:25] is well

Guest [00:56:29] oh, all is well well all is well.

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1309

Hannah Comeau [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Okay, so what's next in your story?

Hannah Comeau [00:00:40] Let's see. So I think, you know, I think I'll move to when I met my husband. So I actually met my husband in high school. Yeah, we were good friends. We met through marching band, which is just so romantic.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] A little nerdy.

Hannah Comeau [00:01:03] Little nerdy. But, hey, I mean. Yeah, I'm kidding.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] I'm kidding.

Hannah Comeau [00:01:09] It is. It's fine. No, actually, I'll be honest. The only reason I joined a marching band was because our marching band was going to Disneyland that year, and I wanted to go to Disneyland, so I ended up staying with it. Cause I actually really enjoyed it. But I. Yeah, so I. I was on the color guard, so I spun the flags and the rifles and stuff like that. It was. It was fun. I loved it. I had great friends who did it with me. And then John, my husband, who. He was also in marching band. He played the flute. And he actually. It's so funny. He joined the flute section because mainly it was girls who were in the flute section. And so he's. He's like, hey, good odds for me.

Hannah Comeau [00:01:57] Yeah,

Hannah Comeau [00:02:01] yeah. No. Anyways, so, yeah, that's how we met. And so we actually started dating when we were both 17 in high school. We dated for a full three years before we got married. Which I actually am very, very glad. I'm not the type of person who can meet someone and then get married very quickly after that. I need to, like, again, I need to be very, very thoughtful in the decisions that I make. And so I need. I'm. I needed that. That time to get to know him really well and make sure our relationship was strong in that regard. But, yeah, dating definitely presented some very interesting concerns with scrupulosity because Mormons are

John Dehlin [00:02:43] taught a lot about any romantic behaviors before marriage.

Hannah Comeau [00:02:49] Yeah. So as might be a parent, I struggled a lot with not actually breaking the law of chastity, but of being afraid of the law of chastity. And. Okay, I will say that I don't think the church, like, discourages relationships and stuff like that. So, like, I won't go as far as to say that or anything. It's just there is a pretty high standard, the rules you have to follow in regard to that. In regard to dating when it comes to things like that. Yeah. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And so you're dating and, you know, normally kids would hold hands or maybe they would kiss or maybe they would hug or even make out. What's that like for a Mormon teen girl in Rexburg, Idaho, who's got scrupulosity?

Hannah Comeau [00:03:47] Yeah, I'll say. It's. It was. It took up a lot. A lot of years of my life kind of dealing with. With implications from this. So we were. We were a normal. A normal teenage couple. You know, we didn't, looking back, actually, and John, while we were dating, I mean, tried to convey this to me all the time, that we did not break the law of chastity. We read the Strength for the Strength of Youth pamphlet all the time, over and over and over again just to make sure. But, you know, this is where my hyper confessing came in. Confessing of sins. And I'd mentioned previously that for someone with ocd, we can almost like, convince ourselves that we committed a sin when we actually have not, or not that's in a religious context. We can convince ourselves that we have done a certain action when in fact, we haven't. And I know that might sound strange, but that's. That's actually. I mean, that's how it works for some people. So I would have, you know, John and I. I mean, we'd be, you know, together and stuff, and I'd have, like, what you'd call, I guess, maybe impure thoughts come into my head or something. And, you know, I became so devastated about my standing before God and my worthiness. I was so ashamed to even, like, go to church and to. At this time, I withdrew so much from my parents because I was so ashamed of the mistakes that I thought I had made. And granted. Yeah, of course we all make mistakes and whatever. I'm not saying I was 100% perfect in what I did, but it was taken to such an extreme that, like, the guilt was. I can't even explain the level I felt during this time.

Intrusive Thoughts, Sexuality, and Teenage Struggles

John Dehlin [00:06:04] So are you able to share with us the types of thoughts? Is it just like, he's cute or, oh, I'm really attracted to him, or, oh, I want to kiss him? Or is it, oh, start having sexual thoughts?

Hannah Comeau [00:06:15] Like, yeah, kind of a. Kind of a mix of all of those. I mean, as any relationship progresses. Progresses. Of course, it started out with, like, the. More like, oh, like, I'm attracted to him or whatever, you know. And then as. As it progresses, you know, it does start to delve into sexual thoughts, which I don't. Which I think is just natural. And, you know, my parents were always very good about teaching us that, like, you know, as a human, you're gonna have thoughts. It's what we do based on those thoughts that are important, we have control over that. But, yeah, for me, it was those thoughts that were my actual reality. And it was so hard to separate me, separate myself from the thoughts versus the actions. And so if I had any type of thought, I had. I mean, I had sinned, and so I would confess that to my bishop, I would withdraw from my parents because I was so ashamed of it. And, yeah, it just created a very interesting scenario.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] So you were confessing a lot to your church leaders and to your parents, but you weren't actually acting in any really explicit way on your sexuality, just to be clear.

Hannah Comeau [00:07:40] Right, yeah, Yep. I mean. I mean, the farthest we ever went was. I mean, we would. We would make out, but that's. I mean, that's a normal. Kind of a normal teenager thing to do. And we were. But, yeah, strictly speaking, within the church guidelines, we were very much in line with those. And so that's been. It's been interesting to me to look back at that from this perspective after I've come to realize what I deal with and kind of say, actually, I didn't do anything I should be ashamed of. And again, I'm not saying that if you do do those things, you should be ashamed. Like, not at all. That's not what I'm saying. Just from my perspective back then.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Yeah. You know, so, yeah, super hard.

Hannah Comeau [00:08:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Okay. So more torment around that. And if anyone wants to go back and listen to the first episode we did on scrupulosity, that's a case of hyper confessing. And maybe something just psychoeducationally that's worth noting here. If somebody has scrupulosity and they're hyper confessing, there's nothing you can do to reassure them that they're okay. Even if in the case of a bishop saying, I talk to God myself and he says, you're okay, tell me how that gets processed by someone with scrupulosity. Anna?

Hannah Comeau [00:09:00] Yeah, there's no convincing someone with scrupulosity that they are okay before the Lord. Because what happens when your bishop will tell you that I've prayed, the Lord has told me, like, you're forgiven and stuff like that. While that might reassure other people, the thought that immediately pops into your head was, well, then I didn't confess everything that I knew.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Right. Maybe I forgot to mention something.

Hannah Comeau [00:09:26] Yeah, I forgot to mention something. Then that must be it. And also another scripture that I just had a hard time with in this regard was that it is by grace that you are saved. After all you can do.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:09:45] So that all you can do part

John Dehlin [00:09:47] was, have I done all I can do?

Hannah Comeau [00:09:49] Yeah. Yeah. No. So there was. There was just no convincing me that I was okay. And in fact. Okay, so this is pretty. This is kind of interesting too. So during that time, I, you know, I was really, really, really worried about my own worthiness. I started to look for essentially signs that I was forgiven. So I would say, like, okay, God, if I'm forgiven, like, make this happen in my life or something like that. And of course, that didn't always happen, but sometimes. Sometimes it did. And I would. It would reinforce this thought. Thought process. So one quick example. And again, it might seem a little bit silly, but to me, it was. It felt like a life or death situation. Okay, so in. In and through high school, I danced. I did clog dancing and ballroom dancing. And this was my freshman year of college. And I, again, was just beating myself up over these fits. These sins that I had convinced myself I had committed. And I had recently lost my clogging shoes. So I was like, okay, if I'm forgiven, like, help me find my clogging shoes right now, you know, and then I would find them just throughout the course of looking, and I would. I would try to just hang on to anything I could as evidence that I'd been forgiven. And that would reassure me for a second. But then you'd come. I'd come up with all of these other. These other tests and things I had to do in order to be forgiven. And it just ended up taking up a lot of my time and a lot of effort in that regard. And still it wasn't enough to convince myself.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] And that will. Eventually we'll get to the treatment of ocd, but as long as you're performing compulsions, you're actually maintaining or making worse your ocd. So this is where it gets tricky, is if, you know, if you're a parent or a bishop and your kid or someone you know is hyper confessing to you and you're continually offering reassurance, what you're actually doing is reinforcing and strengthening their OCD because you're participating in their compulsive behavior. And so this is where relationships with other people can get really tricky. Because obviously, the last thing you want to do is make someone's OCD worse. But when you get caught up in trying to reassure, you are literally enabling and strengthening the compulsions.

Hannah Comeau [00:12:39] Yeah, no, I agree with that. Because what your brain starts to. How your brain starts to make these connections is that you do these compulsions, and then everything turns out to be okay. Right. Like, life goes on as normal. And then you start thinking, oh, well, that's because I did this certain act or, you know, did that a certain way. And then when other people are reassuring you that you had done something good by doing what might be a compulsion, it does reinforce and reinforce that cycle. And you really. It really becomes ingrained into your mind that it's because of those compulsions or those acts that you're doing that results are panning out the way that they do. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Right. And people. If people don't know how OCD works, they would have no idea that they were actually strengthening the problem.

Hannah Comeau [00:13:31] Yeah, no, it's interesting, and it's hard to navigate that because, like I said, no one knew that I had OCD until just a couple years ago. And so. And even people, like, if, you know, people have ocd, it's so hard to draw that line between maybe giving a compliment to someone, what you might think you're just making a compliment, where it could really just be an enforcement of a vicious cycle. So it's very challenging.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Yeah. Okay, so we've got the hyper confessing adding to your story. What comes next?

Hyper-Confessing and a Relationship with a Missionary

Hannah Comeau [00:14:15] Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, I mean, there are, of course, just a lot of things. I mean, so John served a mission. So he was. He's only five months older than me, but he was a grade older than me in school. So during my senior year of high school, he left to. Left on his mission. So he went to Baltimore, Maryland. I mean, had a good time for the most part. He ended up coming home early. So he was there for nine months. Came home early due to depression and anxiety, and he had some stomach problems as well. And it turns out he had developed a major ulcer from all the anxiety and stress he was under. And we actually laugh because a couple of years ago, I think it was. I can't remember the talk, but I think it was Elder Holland or something gave a talk. I think it was be ye therefore perfect eventually or something like that. And in it. In it he actually talked about, you know, do the best that you can, but don't put so much pressure. Pressure on yourself that you give yourself an ulcer. And we just laugh because that's exactly what happened with John on his mission. And, you know, so anyways, just kind of funny. So, yeah, that's. That's another thing. We both deal with a lot of different mental health problems. But so for me, it was hard when he came home early from his mission. It was very challenging because I was of this perspective, of course, that you serve a full time, two year mission no matter what. And so that was, it was really. It took me a while to get, get over that fear a little bit of what would happen if I stayed with him now, like, is he worthy?

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Is he worthy, righteous enough?

Hannah Comeau [00:16:25] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] The full mission.

Hannah Comeau [00:16:27] Exactly. And you know, because you hear all the time that I think, well, I mean, especially young women in the church here that you want to strive to marry a returned missionary. Like, that's that's the thing. And I will say that I think in the last couple years, the culture around that in Rexburg has changed a little bit. It's becoming a lot more accepting of missionaries who return home early. But it was not when John came home. When John came home, and that was six years ago now, something like that. It was very, very different. He did not get an opportunity to give a homecoming speech. You know, he'd have people asking him, okay, well, when are you going back out? You know, things like that where he couldn't go back out because he, and he said he's okay with me sharing this. But he got to the point where he became suicidal on his mission and it just was not mentally healthy for him to be there anymore. And I hate to say that I was kind of contributing to that a little bit out of my own fear, saying, hey, when are you going back out? And of course my family as well kept saying, you know, is he going back out? Is he going back out? Everyone, everyone around us kept saying that, including myself. So. And again, it had to do with this, this OCD mentality as well, like you were saying, just making sure he was, he was worthy and because I was going to be committed to this for the rest of my life, of course. And you know, what impact would that have then on our future children if he didn't serve a full time mission? So I don't just think about those immediate, I guess, ramifications from it. My whole life is out there at this point.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Yeah, Mormons are often Mormons, kids are. At least when I was growing up, we're told the most important decisions you'll ever make or who you marry and when and where you marry them. Basically marry a righteous person in a temple as soon as you get off your mission. And that's it, that's the decision of your life, right?

Hannah Comeau [00:18:49] Yes, it is, it is. And I struggled with this because him and I just had like, you know, okay, you know, those people where you meet and you just have an instant connection and like you're just, you just vibe on every level. Like that was, that was. Him and I, we were, we met and became great, great friends. We are just perfect, like super, super compatible with each other. People tell us all the time that we're just. We still, like. I've had friends in law school tell me that we still seem like a brand grand, like a newly married couple, even though we've been married four years now. And it's just fun. We have fun together. But. So I was struggling with that feeling like that. And also with. But he's. I don't know if he's worthy. So it was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Which is exacerbating your scrupulosity and his depression and anxiety.

Hannah Comeau [00:19:48] Yes. Oh my God. Yeah, we, we've come, of course, a long, long way since then and actually I actually feel like we complement each other really well now. I feel like being in a relationship where both people struggle with mental illness to the extent that we do, there can be some challenges there for sure, but I also think there's a lot of groundwork there for you to have empathy for each other. And so over the last several years we've been together, we've just really grown in that area and that's been great for us. But yeah, back then for sure, we were trying to navigate that.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] Okay, so what'd you do?

Hannah Comeau [00:20:39] Yeah, so it's not that simple. It's just, what did you do? But yeah, no, it took up. So at the time he came home, I was just starting my freshman year of college, I believe. And so I was trying to get used to that, get used to college life. I went to byu, Idaho, and also he came home. And so since I went to school in the town where I grew up and that's where he grew up as well, we were still together. We didn't have to do any more long distance, anything like that. Yeah. And I will say, like without, and this is without assigning blame to anyone. It was an understandably hard situation. My family and I went through a really hard time during, during that in regard to him coming home early from his mission. You know, as parents, you want nothing but the best for your children, of course. And I had always emphasized that, oh, I am going to marry a returned missionary and things like that. Like, it was more a little bit fear based than it was, you know, actually wanting that as I look back now. And so, you know, my parents would see this and be like, you know, you say you want this. Like we, I Don't know. So there's just. There's a lot of things there, of course, that were difficult for us to navigate during that time. We got through it. I mean, we all kind of realized that, you know, John was a perfectly worthy person. And like I said, my parents were very, very good about, like, honoring the spirit of the law. And so they got to the point, too, where it's like, you know what? It doesn't matter and it's fine. And actually, my dad just got released from being a bishop at BYU Idaho, and he, like, he did. He did such a great job. And, like, I didn't think he wouldn't or anything, of course, but, like, he would tell me, actually, several times that because of this experience we went through as a family with John coming home early, he has been much more open and empathic to those at BYU Idaho who struggle both with their faith or with going on a mission or things like that. And so, as I look back, it was a hard experience, but I think ultimately it was worth it because a lot of good has come from it since then. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] Sure.

Hannah Comeau [00:23:36] Yeah. That's something my family and I talk. Talk about a lot. And.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Yeah, good for dad.

Hannah Comeau [00:23:42] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:23:44] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:23:45] Well, it's been great. So. Yeah. So that. What. And I won't go into, like, a lot of detail about what happened during that time or anything, but I will say that it got to the point where, for the first time, I did develop suicidal thoughts. And it was very, very, very difficult. So I'm not. I don't want to. I'm not skipping over this because. Because it's not important. I just. For now, I don't. I don't want to necessarily go into all of the details surrounding that event, if that's okay. That's great.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Yeah, of course.

Hannah Comeau [00:24:26] Yeah, of course. So. Yeah. No, so it got to the point where. And for me, too, I wanted to have a good relationship with my family and with his family going forward. And so that was very, very important to me. And eventually we all got to the point where we kind of grew together as a family. We overcame something really, really difficult for all of us. And we. I mean, John and I have been happily married for four years, and we have since just gotten. Had so much fun with. With my family and with his family. And. Yeah, we're all great. We've come to such a. Such a good place with all of that.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] So that's great. So happy to hear.

Hannah Comeau [00:25:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] So is. Did you. Is it worth talking about at what point you learned about what scrupulosity was and maybe even sought treatment for it. And then if so, what that treatment was like and how you got better.

Hannah Comeau [00:25:31] Sure. So there are, There are a few more things about.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Yeah, please.

Hannah Comeau [00:25:37] Yeah. No, no, it's okay. Would you rather me talk about that

John Dehlin [00:25:40] or go in the timeline, follow the chronology?

Hannah Comeau [00:25:43] Yeah, okay, for sure. Yeah. Because it was about, I'd say, a year and a half after we were married that I received my diagnosis and got help for it. Yeah. So I had. It was. I had an interesting time, of course, going through the temple for the first time. That was the period when John and I were engaged where I had the most panic attacks and the most fear of staying worthy and the hyper confessing, of course, because I wanted to make sure that we could get married in the temple and that. And that if we were going to get married in the temple, it was like I had to be 100% worthy. And so that was the point where I was talking about earlier where I had four to five panic attacks per week. And this is while I'm in school, working part time, planning a wedding and having that many panic attacks every single week and it drains your energy, let me just say. So, yeah. No, so I had, you know, my temple recommend interviews. That was just so frightening for me. All these experiences where, like, looking back at just. There are so many experiences growing up in the church that people often say they had such joyful experiences with and such a profound experience and they felt feelings of peace. I was the opposite. I. It was almost like a traumatic experience for me. And. Yeah. So anyways, we ended up like getting our recommends. My. It took a lot of convincing, but my bishop and stake president assured me that I was completely worthy.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Not you convincing them. Them convincing you?

Hannah Comeau [00:27:41] No, them convincing me. Yes. So. And I was very honest and open about everything. And they're like, you're fine, you're okay. So. Yeah, no, but it was. It was hard. I. That was a very dark, dark time for me. Which, you know, is sad because when you're engaged, you're, you know, planning your life together with this other person. And it should be a time for celebration and joy. And granted, there was some of that as well. I'm not saying it was all completely miserable, of course, but there was always that thing in the back of my mind that kind of dampened the situation quite a bit. And so do we want to talk about my experience going through the temple?

Going Through the Temple and Garment Anxieties

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah, please.

Hannah Comeau [00:28:36] Okay, so this is very interesting. So a little bit of backstory to this. By the time I was 15 or 16, I kind of become a closeted feminist. And that was scary to me. So. Okay, so backed off to that as well. So no one had ever told me necessarily that I couldn't pursue a career or do anything like that. But because it was so black and white, I relied on church teachings that said, you know, your place is the home, raising children, and, you know, that's what you have to do. So I felt so guilty for having these desires to pursue a career. And so I. That was another thing that was really hard for me to deal with, thinking that I am somehow imperfect or needed to repent for wanting to, you know, pursue education and for having a career. So that was another thing that was really hard for me.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] Sure, sure.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:45] Yeah. So all that aside, yeah, I went through the temple, and it was. I had relied on this teaching that I had always at least felt that I personally, I had a personal connection to God, that I had direct access to God. And then I go through the temple, and to me, you know, the language is such that I now have to go through my husband to get to God. And for me, that was just devastating because I had worked so hard to be worthy of that and, you know, to get the blessings from making these covenants and for, you know, deepening that relationship with God. And I had a hard time with the covenants that I, as a female in the church, had to make to my husband. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] So. And, you know, whenever you talk about the temple within Mormon context, there's always going to be high levels of sensitivity. But I'll just say it if you don't want to, that, yeah, go ahead. In Mormonism, there's a history of inequality in terms of what the man promises and covenants and what the woman promises in covenants in the temple. Historically, the man makes his covenants with God and the woman sort of makes her covenants with the man, or promises not to obey God, but promises to kind of hearken or obey the man. And then there's other inequalities, like, you know, you get a new name in the temple, and the woman can tell the man her new name, but the man doesn't tell the woman his new name. Tell me. You know, those are the types, some of the types of things. And the woman veils her face and the man doesn't. So those are some of the types. And I'm only saying that so you don't feel like you have to talk in detail. Is there anything else you want to add, or are those the types of things that Bothered you?

Hannah Comeau [00:31:56] No, that about covers it. And I do appreciate that because just out of. I don't know, I. And which is fine. I don't necessarily feel comfortable about talking about details or anything, so I do appreciate. I do appreciate that. So. But yeah, it was things like that that made me feel very, very confused about the situation, to say the least, you know, and then aside from the feminism aspect from it, I didn't know what covenants I was going to be making at the time when I went. When I went through the temple, you know, and for me, that was a huge deal because if you remember the process I went through getting baptized when I was 8 and wanting to be very, very aware of the promises I was making and being very conscientious about that choice, going through the temple was hard because you aren't allowed to talk about the details outside of it. And so I was going in not having any idea what I was committing myself to necessarily. And that was a very, very scary thing for me. And I struggled after going through the temple because I couldn't remember what all of those covenants were, because it's a lot to remember for your first time going through. And. And. But because I couldn't fully remember and I couldn't talk about it with anyone, I just became so frightened that I was breaking these covenants now. And, you know, and along with that.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] So

Hannah Comeau [00:33:39] garments. Wearing garments was another very, very interesting thing for me as well, with scrupulosity. So it got to this point where I had. I wore my garments for about two years after we got married, but that was. It was kind of on and off because I would go through these times where I felt as though I was breaking my covenants or I was unworthy again with those. With those intrusive thoughts and everything thinking that I had sinned. And so I felt like I wasn't worthy to wear my garments. But then that creates the problem that I had covenanted to wear my garments. And so. And so I was faced with this constant, like, confusion about should I wear them or shouldn't I wear them. There was no way for me to perfectly keep all of the covenants in my mind, if that made sense.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Yeah, It's a catch 22. You have to be worthy to wear your garments. Yeah, but. But you're unworthy if you don't wear your garments.

Hannah Comeau [00:34:45] Yes, exactly. So I had some big problems with that, of course, and that took up a lot of my time and energy and attention after I got married. And so, yeah, very interesting, I will say I, after getting married, going through the temple the first time, I only went back through about four more times after that just because it was a very, very big ordeal for me. It was again, it was those worthiness issues and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] And again, it's not like you're doing drugs and sleeping around outside your marriage. Again, it's just the torment of perfectionism.

Hannah Comeau [00:35:33] Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so yeah, that's a good clarification. So when I say that, it doesn't mean that I actually was sinning according to church standards, but in my brain I had convinced myself that I was. So again, yeah, just keep that in mind.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] So, yeah, yeah. And that's super hard because then the temple is one of the most important things. But then the temper temple can become traumatic and triggering. But then you hear messages at church all day that you got to go to the temple and wear your garments and that's a real heavy. That's just a real heavy catch 22 and an additional psychological burden for you.

Hannah Comeau [00:36:10] Very exhausting. Yeah, yeah, no, it was. For sure. It was hard. We spent many, many days and nights with John and I having these discussions about worthiness and just about things like that. And yeah, it was very, very interesting. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] And marriage can be hard enough. And then if your spouse thinks, why aren't you going to the temple? Why aren't you comfortable with the temple? Then it can add marital conflict because you're not being righteous like you should be.

Hannah Comeau [00:36:41] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] And it can just compound the complexity of the marriage.

Hannah Comeau [00:36:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] And.

Hannah Comeau [00:36:46] And I will say, actually, I'm seriously so grateful for, for John. He. He actually was never like that. So I know that it can turn into that sometimes. The way I describe him is like we learn about this concept of Christ like love or charity, which I've always just thought beautiful about the church and about the scriptures. And I feel like John, my husband, just embodies that so perfectly well, he just great person. I love him to death. Anyone who knows John just can probably affirm that as well. So great guy. But. But it created the problem where I would think that he was thinking that about me and it turned into this. Me kind of constantly interrogating him about how he felt about it, you know, things like that. So again, a vicious cycle.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] Yeah. Okay. So difficult temple experiences.

Hannah Comeau [00:37:49] Yeah, very, very, very difficult. And I know in some ways scrupulosity presents in people to where they're going to the temple all the time. And I did that. I read my scriptures a lot and I did. And I hyper confessed things like that. So it did present in that way for me a little bit. But in regard to the temple, I think the compulsion I did was avoidance. And some people don't realize that avoidance is actually a compulsion in ocd.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] So it's one of the, and it's, it's one of the worst because you avoid something thinking you're, you know, you're going to not have it in your life, but, but the act of avoiding it makes it that it's constantly on your mind because you have to have it on your mind to avoid it. So avoidance becomes torment, is that right?

Hannah Comeau [00:38:46] It is, yeah, absolutely. And in addition to the temple, like, that's a major one of mine. Avoidance has been a big thing for me that I've had to overcome and I'm still working on that. You know, mental health is a long journey and it's a never ending journey. But yeah, it's something that you can definitely work on and it can improve, if anything. I think I'm proof of that. So.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So avoiding. Yeah, that's a classic scrupulosity affliction.

Hannah Comeau [00:39:26] Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] So how. What comes next?

Feminist Awakening and Its Impact on Marriage

Hannah Comeau [00:39:36] Well, so maybe this might be a good time to talk about because the other part of my story too is me dealing with my feminism and how that kind of plays into. It does play into my scrupulosity a little bit because as I mentioned before, I felt like the church taught you can't do that. And that's not necessarily true. But the overwhelm, overwhelming feeling that I got was that I only had one choice, if that makes sense, and that was to stay home and raise children and, you know, everything. Everything like that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] I think it's fair to say that the church, you know, there are working women in the church and the church doesn't now in 2020, like explicitly openly condemn career professional women. But so much of what's focused on and emphasized and taught and encouraged to young women are that they be stay at home moms. And so even if the church isn't, but then you can also have local leaders that do explicitly condemn working moms. So talk about that if you want.

Hannah Comeau [00:40:52] Yeah. So, okay, I do have an interesting story. So I like, I appreciate that you said that. It's the rare exception where people in the church actually go out of their way to say you can't do this, you know, so I do have an example of that if you want to hear it, actually. Very interesting. So during my freshman year of high school, I was in seminary. We were studying the Doctrine and Covenants that year. And so this seminary teacher of mine, and this didn't happen to me directly, but it happened to someone in my class, and I was there to witness it. We did this activity where we write down our goals for the future, you know, and what we're looking for in a future spouse, what we view our family looking like in the future. So what happens is there's a question on there saying, how many kids do you want? Or how many kids do you see yourself having? And my seminary teacher actually walks past one of my friends or a girl in my class and picks up her paper and tells the class, okay, women, I want to make you make something very, very clear. So this person has said that they only want two children on their paper. And you know, your role as a woman is to have as many kids as you can. And if the only reason you want two children is because you plan on planning, you're planning on going out to work, then you need to readjust your priorities. You need to, you know, change that. And he made a major deal out of it. And then he made comments about how children who grow up in a home where the mother worked will struggle in all areas of their life as adults. And then of course, we have so many kids in the class who have working moms who then are like, okay, like, what does that say about me? You know? And of course, lots of women who are wanting to pursue careers. And so that's my only real example of someone who's outright told me that I can't do that. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] And then there's just the cultural what you see in your home ward and what the church models when they hold up, you know, women leaders. And it's just always the stay at home mom. So you will grow up. You would have grown up, especially in Rexburg with this idea that you should be a stay at home mom. And that wasn't what you were wanting inside.

Hannah Comeau [00:43:40] Exactly, exactly. And yeah, like, I forgot where I was going for a second with that. But what. Remind me. Sorry, remind me one more time.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Oh, just feminism. And I don't know if that if you were trying to start talking about your faith crisis, maybe as a parallel stream to your scrupulosity journey.

Hannah Comeau [00:44:05] Yeah. So. Oh yeah. One thing I wanted to make clear as well is that some people, I think, especially in the church view, people who have, like me, who have opinions of, like, I want to be able to have the choice to go work, I want to do that. That doesn't mean that I think that staying home is a bad choice. I think it's a great choice, but the problem that a lot of people in the church or a lot of women in the church face is thinking that that's their only option, you know? So I talk with my mom a lot, and she is a nurse, so she has her nursing degree. But she always told me that she was so grateful that she had the choice to stay home and raise kids. And she's done a fantastic job with that. And I was like, wow, that's so awesome that you got to make that choice. But I feel like the harm in the church's overall view towards that is that is the only choice that women have. And that if you do choose to have a career, it's like a second class thing, you know, it's like, great. You can choose that. But, you know, that's really pretty sad. You're missing out on what you should be doing, so.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Right.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Okay, so tell us how that. How these early feminist inklings sort of progressed for you over time.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:41] Yeah, sure.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:43] So

Hannah Comeau [00:45:45] it, I think, got to its peak point after I went through the temple and after I had been married for about a year or so. So this is another part where that. The interview you did with Nielsen's. I just related to so much because we had such a hard time with, like, the roles that we were supposed to be doing in our marriage. And like, they had mentioned that several times. And what they said about that just really resonated with me because we had a problem with that. That too. So, for instance, I. John isn't the type of person to, like, be like, the natural leader. He's not. He. It's just not natural for him to say, like, okay, we're doing family scripture study. This is how things are gonna be. You know, things like that. But I felt like he had to do that as the priesthood holder in our home. And so I initially would get frustrated with him saying, like, I shouldn't be having to do this, because that's your job as a man and as a priesthood holder and, you know, things like that. And initially he felt pressure. So John hate. He does not like school. So he has his bachelor's degree, but just school is not his thing. And so he felt pressure from society and culture, whatever you will, to pursue a master's degree and to do all this stuff with education and just so he could be the provider for us and things like that. And it just. That was not what he wanted to do with his life. And he felt so much pressure in his role, you know, as the leader to do that. And so that was really harmful for him. And then, you know, for me, again, just, it was kind of, kind of, kind of the opposite. Of course, like, I feel like I, out of the two of us, I feel like I have the more leadership type personality, if that makes sense. And so for me, it was really hard that if I. So if I, for instance, would like assert myself and say, hey, I'm planning like a family home meeting or something, I felt so guilty because that wasn't my role, that was not what I was supposed to be doing. And so for like a good year or so, just we had such a hard time with navigating that. That dynamic. We finally kind of came to the point where we realized that, you know, roles within a marriage, at least for our marriage, wasn't going to be based on our gender. It was going to be based on who we were as people. And after we made that decision, it relieved a lot of stress for us. So.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] Nice.

Hannah Comeau [00:48:55] Yeah. And then so, for instance, we got to the point actually where something that's always just bothered me a little bit is how you go to a large gathering and a guy will get up and say, okay, as head of the household, I'm going to ask you to say the prayer. Or, you know, things like that. Home teachers would come over and say, hey, this is your home. You. Who would you like to say the prayer? You know, to my husband and ever to me, you know. And so we got to the point where we would switch off, asking people if they would pray and taking over leadership responsibilities like that. And this is actually really interesting. So we didn't think it was that big of a deal or anything. It made. It helps me feel a little bit better about my importance in the marriage and in the church. And it helped John feel better about not feeling pressured to have to take the lead all the time and things like that. So it worked really well for us. So we did have an experience where we had moved into a brand new ward and the elders quorum president came over to just chat with us, get to know us a little bit. Great times. It went great. I loved that ward, actually. It was a great place to be. But at the end. Well, actually, so at the beginning he asked John to say, like, hey, who do you want to say the prayer? This is your home. So John's like, okay, can like, Hannah, do you want to say the prayer or something? So I said a prayer. And then at the end, it was getting apparent that like the meeting was kind of over. And so I said, all right, so, brother, so. And so would you like to offer us a closing prayer? And he. He was so confused. He said, wait, no, he demands. And he used those words. He said he demands in regard to my husband. And, you know, I told him, you know, this is just as much my home as it is his home. And, you know, this is what works for us as a couple. And it's more my home than it is your home. And so I would love it if you'd be willing to say the prayer. Yeah. And so he said the prayer, and then he, of course, made comments about how, oh, well, you think you're the man or whatever. Joking. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm clearly not. Not a man. But yeah, so, yeah, just a few interesting things like that. That kind of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. And that's fine. I mean, it is how it is.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] I mean, it's worth saying that the Mormonism is kind of another F word within Mormon culture. You know, when Kate Kelly and other feminists, the September six when. Whenever women have really tried to. Or the era. Whenever women have tried to express feminist inklings or thoughts or feelings for decades and decades and decades, they've been slapped down and excommunicated. And so just in the past few years, with all the backlash from Kate Kelly and her excommunication and all the global press, the church has started to try and elevate some soft feminists like Nylan McCain and others to kind of make us look not so severely patriarchal and anti feminist, but within the rank and file of the church. Feminism is a bad word, and you don't want to self identify as a feminist. Certainly men don't do that. And that would make it so within the culture, no man or few men would ever be interested in even learning about the tenets of feminism or supporting them or becoming sensitive to feminist sensibilities. And so that's the cultural milieu that we're all swimming in is sort of an anti feminist culture.

Hannah Comeau [00:53:21] Yeah, no, I agree. And I will say that I am actually really hopeful for the steps that the church is taking and kind of mitigating this a little bit. And in the future, going forward, I can see, in my opinion, I think it's going in a positive direction. So I'm grateful for that. But no, you're right. So when ordained women was going on, that was the point where I was struggling mostly with. I felt like I was a feminist. And that was really scary to me. So I did everything I could to say how harmful ordain women was and how, like, you know, you kind of go to the extreme on the other side to make sure people don't realize you secretly kind of agree with it a little bit. So that's where I was about during that time. So.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] Sure. Yeah. Okay, so what. What comes next in your story?

Hannah Comeau [00:54:27] Yeah, so I decided. So before I had my faith crisis actually fully hit, I did make the decision to. That I was gonna pursue a law degree. And so. And, like, again, I need to just shout out to my husband again, because he's the one who helps me, like, reason. Reason through those thoughts and feel confident about my decision to do that and was so encouraging because. And I know this is not the case with most people, but there are some men that I have met that if I were to be in a relationship with them, they would not have encouraged me to do that or moved to Virginia with me so I could pursue that degree and get that education. So I just am so grateful to him and for all that he did and helping me get to that point.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] So as a believing Mormon, he was still willing to be supportive of your desire to go to graduate school to pursue a law profession?

Hannah Comeau [00:55:39] Yeah, he really was, because it's been on the back of my mind for several years. And, you know, I would just tell him, I wish I could just do this. I feel like it would be a good use of, like, my talents and my interests and abilities and skills. And he'd be like, so why don't you? You know, like, he was the one to encourage me to do that. And I just am very, very, very grateful to that. He helped a lot in me, allowing myself to change my perspectives and thoughts around feminism and the church and my choices regarding that.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] So shout out to John. Thumbs up to John.

Hannah Comeau [00:56:20] Yep. He's awesome. So, yeah, so then I. Okay, so I'm trying to figure out how I want to talk about my faith crisis a little bit, because I feel like it's a little bit different than what other people experience because it was so tied in with my ocd, rather than just church history issues and things like that.

Finding a Therapist and Receiving a Scrupulosity Diagnosis

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. I love, you know, people being able to tell different types of stories.

Hannah Comeau [00:56:57] Yeah. So. So around this time as well. So about a year after I got married, I started seeing a therapist for, you know, my depression and anxiety. I had no idea that I dealt with scrupulosity or OCD at this time, but I knew that I needed Some help. So that's where I was. I started going to therapy about a year, it took about a year actually of therapy to get my diagnosis of OCD and scrupulosity, which is just partly because I, I had trouble disclosing my thoughts and things like that because I knew that these thoughts and feelings I had were, you know, a little bit, A little bit abnormal. But then I was so scared of the response to those, even though that's a therapist's job. Right. So it took me a while to get that diagnosis.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] So what made you, when you originally went to a therapist, what. How did you conceptualize yourself as needing therapy?

Hannah Comeau [00:58:07] Yeah, it was mainly these panic attacks that kept happening. Yeah, yeah. And that had been going on for a couple years, but it had gotten to the point where like it was getting. Going on a. Getting worse and worse instead of getting better. So I was finally just like, you know what? Like, I need, I need some help for this. I need to try something that I haven't tried before. So.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Yeah, and one of the good news, the good news about anxiety disorders like panic attacks or OCD is that they are highly treatable phobias, panic, agoraphobia, and of course ocd, they are all highly treatable with empirically supported evidence based treatments if you'll just seek treatment. But they often don't resolve themselves without treatment. So it's just, it's literally needless suffering for many people the longer they wait or if they don't go.

Hannah Comeau [00:59:11] Yeah, I fully agree with that. And again, sometimes you don't often realize what the underlying problem was. So I thought I was dealing with maybe a generalized anxiety disorder, which I do deal with as well. But there's a lot more to it than that, which I had come to find out and have done a lot of work on and everything. So, yeah, I got treatment for that. I was in therapy for about three years in regard to that. So right up until I left and moved to Virginia, I had been working through my scrupulosity and OCD and depression issues with this therapist in Rexburg. And yeah, I feel like I actually got to a really pretty good point with that. So where I'm in school now, I still deal with these problems, if you don't mind saying.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] What was his treatment? Was he aware of what scrupulosity was?

Hannah Comeau [01:00:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] Was he competent with OCD treatment and what was the treatment? Yes.

Hannah Comeau [01:00:17] Yeah, a lot of cognitive behavioral. Behavioral therapy treatment and just, a lot of. Just talk therapy in general. So I, for me, okay, for me, just knowing what my diagnosis was and learning about it helped so much. I can't even explain it, but as soon as I became aware of what this was and what I had been dealing with for so long, it immediately kind of relieved some of this pain I'd been carrying around, knowing that other people have gone through this as well and that there are treatments for it. And so I would say that something, I guess really critical to treatment is to actually learn about what you're dealing with. It's scientific. It's not that you have there's anything wrong with you. And that's what I thought was so interesting. And so, yeah, that and CBT a little bit were definitely very helpful for me.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] So did he, did this therapist recognize the scrupulosity right off or did it take him a while? Or did you have other therapists first who weren't aware of it? How did the. You said the scrupulosity diagnosis didn't come immediately.

Hannah Comeau [01:01:32] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] So partly because you weren't, because you weren't talking about the thoughts.

Hannah Comeau [01:01:39] So the interesting thing is, yeah, so I had started talking about like a lot of my anxiety related to church, you know, and then. So that went on for several weeks. And then, and I should note too, that this therapist is active, lds, everything like that. It was, yeah, it was, it was great. So, yes, even in Rexburg you can, you can find good treatment for mental health. But yeah, no, so I started like, you know, having these talking about my anxiety related to church things. And he asked several follow up questions about how I perceived, you know, promptings from the Holy Ghost, for instance, how I perceived different aspects of their religion. And so I told him about all of these experiences that I've, I've shared on here. And you know, we figured out like, yeah, you, that I have scrupulosity and I have other forms of OCD as well. And as soon as we made that realization, I feel like I was able to do a lot of work really quickly in regard to it. So, yeah, he was able to see it. Able to see how church culture can be harmful to someone with mental disorders like that and was very effective in treating it.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] So kudos to him because if a therapist either doesn't know about it or worse, they try and treat the scrupulosity with what is often just your gut instinct or logic or common sense. A therapist can often make the scrupulosity worse, let alone, you know, making it better. And you'll get these therapists that mix their religious values with their therapy treatment and they're like reassuring you or telling you to pray more, telling you to seek help from Jesus or teaching you about Jesus in the atonement and read your scriptures more and trying to talk to you about, you know, doctrine and theology and it's just all gonna make it worse.

Hannah Comeau [01:04:02] Sure, yeah. No, and that's, that's what I was a little bit afraid of as well because I had heard stories like that from several friends of mine and like we were talking about earlier things. Things like that can just really reinforce it if you're being told to read your scriptures a certain way or certain amount of times or things like that. And unfortunately I have heard a lot of stories of people going through that in Rexburg. That's not everyone's experience, but I was afraid that that would be the case with me as well.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] And then again, if they're reassuring, if they're reassuring, that also can contribute to the problem. In the episode I did a few years ago, you know, we would have a bishop that would like give him a prayer saying he's forgiven and then write down the prayer and transcribe it, you know, thinking that, oh, if he had the transcription of the prayer, then that's gonna help him not feel so guilty. And again, all of that is just feeding into the compulsion to need to get resolution.

Hannah Comeau [01:05:14] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] That's not helpful either.

Hannah Comeau [01:05:19] Okay. Another resource I wanted to mention as well, and this is, it's so random how I got this. My mother in law happened to have this book randomly just lying around. And this is after I got my diagnosis and was kind of working through it, but I have it right here. It's called the OCD Mormon, if you can see it.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] Oh, wow. Never heard of that.

Hannah Comeau [01:05:44] I hadn't either. But yeah, it talks about this woman's experience with dealing with scrupulosity in the Mormon Church and just explaining how we experience, you know, we experience the church very differently from, from other people. And what she said in there just resonated with me so much and that was very, very helpful for me.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] And so it's a good book.

Hannah Comeau [01:06:16] Yeah, yeah. And she, and she, at the time she wrote this book anyways, she was able to get through her OC and scrupulosity enough and stay an active member of the church and everything. Yeah. Which, which I think is great. I, of course, I mean, I ended up leaving.

OCD Treatment and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

John Dehlin [01:06:39] But before you, before you talk about that, can I ask you a question just a little bit more about the treatment? So you say cbt, which stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. People won't Understand maybe what that means or what that looks like. So can you just talk a little bit more about how your therapist applied CBT to your scrupulosity in a way that was helpful?

Hannah Comeau [01:07:03] You know what? I'm not sure I know enough about it to hopefully give a good picture.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] That's fine. Do you mind if I talk about OCD treatment really quick?

Hannah Comeau [01:07:14] Absolutely. Go for it.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] And you tell me if this applied to you or not. The gold standard treatment for obsessive compulsive disorder is the same type of treatment that is offered for phobias, which is called exposure therapy. Basically, exposure therapy is you do an assessment, you figure out what their intrusive thoughts are, and then you figure out what their compulsions are, and you help work with your client so that they can recognize their obsessive thoughts, they can recognize their intrusive thoughts, learn to sit with them, learn to allow them to happen while not trying to avoid or engage in the compulsive behaviors. And in that way, it's exposure. So you're. Instead of trying to avoid your intrusive thoughts by engaging in the compulsive behavior, you allow your intrusive thoughts to be there, learn to sit with them, learn to ride them out without engaging in the neutralizing compulsive behaviors. And in that way, you reverse the cycle of constantly feeding the intrusive thoughts by engaging in the avoidant compulsive behaviors. And so what that would mean for someone who feels like their hands dirty. Hands are dirty would be not washing their hands when they want to. If it's someone who wants to check the doors or flip the switches, it's learning to not flip the switches or check the doors. And for someone who has scrupulosity, then it would mean that if they have the compulsion to confess or they have the inclination to ruminate around the thoughts or obsess about them, that they practice not confessing, not hyper praying, not hyper going to the temple or even allowing an unsavory thought to be in their mind, but not to try and act in any way like prayer or sing a hymn or whatever that might neutralize it. Now, I have no idea whether that has anything to do with what your treatment was like, but that would be the treatment that I would be most familiar with, you know, for something like scrupulosity in a religious context.

Hannah Comeau [01:09:28] Yeah, I think a little bit, for sure. I will say, at that point in my life, I had. The ocd, had kind of resurfaced in a different area of my life. And so while I did still deal with scrupulosity, I think the height of that was when I was, you know, 18, 19 versus at that point, you know, several years later. So I was dealing with it a little bit differently, I guess. And so, yeah, I think that was used a little bit, for sure, to an extent.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] Yeah. Well, and that's fine if you were able to get better without all of that. I do. I will say there's a phenomenal OCD treatment clinic around Bountiful here in Utah that actually a close family member of mine attended. It's called the OCD Anxiety Treatment center, and it follows kind of the gold standard of OCD treatment here in Utah. And there's no paid endorsement here. It's called the OCD and anxietytreatmentcenter.com it's here in Utah. And I just. Because I know these sorts of things, because I've dealt with it in, you know, in a professional context, and I'm a. I have a psychology PhD. I can just tell you this is a great clinic. It's helped people close to me. And if you or someone you love is struggling with OCD in Utah, check it out. It will be very, very helpful.

Hannah Comeau [01:11:12] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [01:11:12] Another thing I wanted to mention, too. This just came to mind. Well, I have. I did some workbooks because I am. I don't know. That stuff resonates with me. Maybe it won't for other people, but I had. It's called the Mindfulness Workbook for ocd, and it just. It discusses all the different type. Types of it. It teaches you how to recognize these patterns when they're resurfacing in different areas of your life. Because I was very afraid of that when I moved out to Virginia, because for me, it's usually with a major life event that the OCD will maybe resurface in another area. And so I've just been in my spare time, if I have any. There's not a lot, but I still work through these things, so I can write down my. Write down my thoughts and pay attention to those. So, yeah, it is a constant thing. But I've gotten to the point for sure where I can recognize those thought patterns when they're happening versus being stuck in this cycle for a long time before that. So, yeah, workbooks are really helpful as well.

John Dehlin [01:12:35] Yeah. And I'll add that the form of treatment that I was trained in to treat obsessive compulsive disorder is called Acceptance and Commitment therapy, or act. And there's a heavy, almost secular Buddhist component to act Heavy mindfulness, a heavy meditation component, and in addition to the exposure therapy of not performing the compulsions when exposed to the intrusive thoughts, it's just learning to sit with your thoughts, to accept your thoughts, to accept these thoughts that are there, to not try and fight them, to not try and make them go away, to even accept that you're feeling these intense, compulsive feelings, and then focusing on what type of life you want to live, and then focusing not on trying to get rid of the ocd, but on trying to not avoid the behaviors that you need to engage in to live a full and meaningful life. And if you Google Mormon stories scrupulosity, you'll find an entire episode where I discuss acceptance, commitment, therapy, or act as a treatment for ocd. And I highly recommend it as a treatment. And again, I'm just tying this to your idea that this workbook had a heavy mindfulness component. Act has a heavy mindfulness component.

Hannah Comeau [01:13:58] Yeah, that's great. I love it. And, yeah, that being said, yeah, different treatment methods work differently for different people as well. And so I guess if I were giving advice to anyone going through this is, don't be discouraged if things maybe don't work for you immediately. It takes time. Like I said, I was in therapy for three years, and finally, by the end, I felt like I got to a point where I could kind of start to work through this a little bit better. So just want to put that out there as well. So.

Hannah Comeau [01:14:53] Come, come, you sang. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo, your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well. All is well. Why should we mourn? I think a lot is hard Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward? Lord, if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have. Let's tell a tale. What? Oh, all is well. All is well. Oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journeys through happy day all is well. We that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain. I will make this chorus well. Oh, all is well all is well all is well well all is well all is well. Oh, all is well. All is well all is ra.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1310

Hannah Comeau [00:00:00] One. Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So you got good treatment. And does that take us to the part of your faith crisis, or was there other things you wanted to talk about? Okay, yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:00:44] Yeah, I'll say so. I would say so. So this is kind of interesting for me. So I'd always had definitely some questions about certain things in church history. Polygamy was the biggest thing for me. That was very, very hard as a teenager, and I would focus on that so much and be so. Just frightened by maybe that I would have to live that way. I'd have dreams about it. There was a moment in my life where it just kind of consumed me. So that, I think was. So some issues like that I just had a very, very hard time squaring because to me, like, this church was my whole world. It's just the way things worked. And so if there's something like polygamy that was very uncomfortable for me, I just. I didn't know what else to think besides, well, okay, this is gonna be my life, I guess, you know, so. So the interesting thing for me is that. So I did start doing more research on church history, and I did find, you know, resources such as the CES letter, and I watched this podcast a lot, and Mormon stories. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Okay. So at some. At some point, you started having questions and you started exploring. Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:02:20] And so. Okay, I want to preface this by saying that I'm not going to go into detail about the particular issues that bother me, because if I've learned anything from being in law school is that two completely reasonable people can come to completely different conclusions based on the same facts. So I'm just throwing that out there. I know so many people who, like, have researched these issues as well and have decided to stay in the church. For me, it worked best to leave. And so I don't want to delve into, like, a discussion about any of those just because, yeah, I feel like you can come to. A reasonable person could come to any. Either conclusion, so totally support that. So. Okay. So for me, though, I had a really interesting experience with it because honesty was a very, very big thing for me throughout my whole entire life. Like, very, very important. And so I was learning about certain historical facts that I didn't know about. And, you know, no one had taught me before. And that's no one's fault because it's just not public information, really. It's not discussed normally. And so for me, it was, I guess, the most shocking part was to see that there are things in this religion that I thought were absolutely perfect, to see that there are some flaws and which is fine because every institution there ever was has flaws and has, you know, a colorful history, frankly, you know, so that, I mean, that's nothing unique about the church. It's, you know, anywhere you go, that's gonna be what it is. But I didn't, I didn't realize. I didn't really realize that. And for me it's just as someone who tried so hard to be honest and transparent in everything that I did, again to the point where, you know, it was kind of hurtful and damaging to myself. You know, it was hard to see that, like the reason I was doing that and the church who I was doing that for, I guess wasn't being as scrupulously honest about facts that I had thought, I guess, if that makes sense.

Faith Crisis, Honesty, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Yeah, that's an interesting thing. So for you, your scrupulosity really does tie to your faith crisis. Because if honesty is amongst the most important things, then when you learn things you weren't taught, or do you have things that are problematic that make you question whether you can really answer questions appropriately or answer temple recommended questions, or whether you are a believer, do have integrity, or you are worthy to do various things within Mormonism, you've got to be honest about it, you've got to talk about it and you've got to get answers. And you can't just write it off or push it away or ignore it, or pretend it's not there because that's not how your brain is wired.

Hannah Comeau [00:05:57] No, no. And so, yes, I did a lot of research about this. And it's actually kind of funny because I graduated from BYU Idaho in 2018, and I had a year in between my graduation and starting law school because my husband was finishing up his degree. And so I unfortunately, I had this crazy thought that I was gonna get a relax a little bit and, you know, just enjoy life a little bit. And then all of course happened. And so I went through my, the bigger part of my faith crisis during that year that I had off of school. So for me, so yeah, honesty was really important for sure. But I think this is, might be a little different from some people. Some people with their stories, they research these topics and they hear these things and as soon as they find it, they might say, oh, well, okay, this means that I have to like, leave or like, that means the church wasn't something I thought it was, or you know, those types of reactions, of course, which is Totally valid. Everyone's story is so different and so important, and our brains are wired differently. So I'm not saying that if that is your experience, like, that's any less valid. So I just want to put that out there.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Yeah. You'll find people that are like, oh, my parents taught me that when I was young. I've heard that for 50 years. And that's their experience. That's their experience.

Hannah Comeau [00:07:36] Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it wasn't necessarily like that. So during this point, I am working very hard to overcome my OCD and overcome my scrupulosity. So I'm learning to see the world in tones of gray rather than black and white. Yeah. And so that's something that was a big, big focus for me. And that's, of course, that applied to church as well. I viewed the church as black and white. It's either you're in or you're out. It's true or it's not true, or, you know, it's good or it's bad. But during this time, I actually learning some of these facts for me about the church history. You'd think for someone with scrupulosity, they would. They would be more on the train of like, okay, it must be completely false. Now I need to, like, leave or whatever, or you go to the opposite, opposite extreme to say, like, no, this is complete anti Mormon literature. This is, you know, I don't know you go to one extreme or the other. But for me, since I was learning how to view things in a grayscale, I guess I learned that even the church that I thought was perfect in every single way had some. Has some gray aspects to it. And that was the first time I realized that. So for me, I guess it wasn't necessarily that learning these things made me want. Want to leave. It's just it made me realize, wow, okay, even the most, like, perfect, I guess, institution has gray areas. And so it finally, for me, allowed me to be comfortable making the choice for myself whether whether the church was right for me personally or not personally. So for me, it was more about coming to the point where I could make a choice about my spirituality and my religion. And for me at this point in my life, you know, there's a combination of so many factors, but I decided that the church at this point wasn't for me anymore. And I was able to do that while still appreciating all of the good about the church. And I also feel like I. When I left, like, sure, I mean, I was angry about a few things. I went through a period of that, for sure, but it didn't last. It didn't last very long for me because I had this whole new perspective that, like, there's some very good things about it, there are some not great things about it, and, you know, it is what it is. And so I just think it's kind of interesting. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] So even even though someone with OCD might be inclined to be very binary about everything, somehow you were able to emerge from your faith crisis deciding that maybe it doesn't work for you, or maybe you can't believe it, but you still see a lot of good in it and value for other people.

Hannah Comeau [00:11:08] Absolutely. For sure. Which actually kind of surprised me because if this had happened to me several years ago, I think the outcome would have been a lot different.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Right. So, yeah, well, that's definitely good for your family relationships and your friendships.

Hannah Comeau [00:11:25] Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, and our family has worked through that as, as well. And I gotta say, like, they are seriously great people. We've come to the point where we have all decided to put the relationship first and respect that and honor that as much as possible. And so of course that leads to sometimes where we have may have difficult discussions or disagreements about something. I'm not saying it's all completely smooth or anything like that, but in any relationship there is going to be problems. Of course there is. And especially when you're trying to keep that relationship strong. You know, I feel like people, couples who are married and say they'd never fight, I feel like either they're completely lying or they don't have a strong relationship because as it's kind of inevitable. But yeah, no. So overall my experience since that has been very positive. Definitely hard, insanely hard, but it is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] So I've noticed that for some scrupulosity clients within Mormonism, losing their faith in the church or leaving the church results in for some, a decrease. A decrease in some of their symptomology, their ruminating thoughts, and maybe some of their compulsive behaviors. And in some cases I've heard about the scrupulosity just kind of resolving just by losing your faith and leaving the church. Now, having said that, OCD is its own disorder, and like I said before, it can just move. So you can lose your faith in the church and then your OCD just can attack a new thing. So I'm not trying to say that the cure to scrupulosity is losing faith, but some people do get better. So do you want to talk about that? Whether that Was a part of your OCD or your scrupulosity getting better?

Hannah Comeau [00:13:45] Sure, yeah. And to emphasize that point even more, like this book that I brought up earlier, the woman who writes this or overcame her scrupulosity and stayed an active, faithful member. And so, yeah, so just along with that point, there's. What someone chooses is not necessarily right for other people. And there are so many different outcomes that can come from that. But, yeah, for me, I noticed that my scrupulosity symptoms completely, like, felt healed when I made the choice for myself. And, you know, it's hard because I know that's hard for some people to understand that that choice is the best choice for me, which is hard.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Which. Either they'll say, well, heavenly Father, what's going on? How can somebody get well by leaving the church? Or wickedness isn't supposed to be happiness. It's wicked to leave the church, not righteous. She leaves the church, therefore she should not get better, be happier and healthier. Or they would just say to you, no, no, no, that's. You're not really happy. You're not really healthier. You need to double down on the scripture study and the prayer and the righteousness. Because it's impossible that even if you think you're happier and healthier, there's no way you are. Cause that's not how it works.

Hannah Comeau [00:15:11] I've tried that route. I've tried reading more and more and more. And, yeah, no, for someone dealing with this, like you said, it just. Something like that will reinforce the cycle, unfortunately. And so for me personally, and again, like, I'm going to emphasize that this is my personal experience and my personal journey with this. It got to the point actually where I needed to stop attending church meetings. Because to me, and I want to. I want to come across. I don't want to come across as, like, negative at all or anything. But for me, it was like leaving an abusive relationship that I had developed at first. So I took a break from going to church before I decided to. Before I made the choice to decide to leave or anything like that. And, you know, that's kind of how I explain it, try to explain it to people. The relationship that I had developed with this organization was just not healthy at that point. And I think there are many ways to develop a healthy relationship. And I think had I made the choice to stay, I think I could get to the point where I could turn it into a healthy relationship. But no, for me, the main thing I've noticed since leaving is that I have a lot more Time and mental energy to think about other things, which is very new for me, actually. I spent so much time focusing on what may or may not happen around my fears that come from scrupulosity, that, you know, I didn't have a lot of time in my life to think about other things. And so for me, it's the best decision that I could have made for myself because, yeah, I'm just happier at this point. I have focused on the things that, like, I feel like will truly make a difference in my life and the lives of other people. And that's been a really healing experience for me.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Yeah. And that's really what it comes down to is OCD can just take over your life where you can't enjoy it. You're always thinking about it, you're always performing your compulsions. It just crowds out enjoyment of life. And. And so that's the benefit, is once you can let go of the compulsive behaviors, hold loosely the intrusive thoughts, you get to actually have the opportunity to enjoy your life or the option of enjoying your life. And it sounds like that's what's happened with you.

Hannah Comeau [00:18:13] Oh, yes. And it's felt so good. And for me, like, it's just been so interesting because I used to be totally a complete introvert and so shy. I did not talk to, like, anyone. I changed schools in eighth grade, and, like, I think for the first couple months, I didn't talk to a single soul. Like, that's how I was. And I've gotten to this point in my life where I just have been able to form relationships with people more easily. I feel much more confident in engaging with other people and for accepting other people, like, no matter what their beliefs are and what their experiences are. And that's just been such a good feeling. And I've been so happy because, you know, humans are social creatures, and we need other. Other people in our lives, and I was missing out on that for so long, and for some reason, this just gave me the ability to do that, which I've been so, so grateful for.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] So it sounds like your life has blossomed in many ways since kind of making these decisions that maybe were painful for others, but they're right for you.

Hannah Comeau [00:19:28] Yes. Yep. 100%. And that's the hard thing about it as well. I mean, any choice you're gonna make, I mean, no one can be 100% happy with that. You're going to disappoint people no matter what you do in life, which is something I still struggle with a Lot. I. That hyper, responsibility, OCD really, really is something I am still working on right now. So it was a hard choice for me because, you know, even though other people are in charge of their own feelings and the way they handle situations, I felt so responsible for that in every way. And that's something I'm still working through for sure.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Well, we're super happy that you found healing.

Hannah Comeau [00:20:17] Yeah, thank you. I am, too.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] Yeah.

Hannah Comeau [00:20:21] Of course, now I'm stuck at home again, not by choice this time. So, you know.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] Yeah. But it's worth saying you've been able to go on to have a likely successful first year of law school and your marriage. You know, you guys are together, and it seems like you guys are doing okay. Like. Yeah, it seems like a lot of good has come from this journey.

Hannah Comeau [00:20:46] Oh, it has. If you. It's so funny, sometimes John and I will just, like, have these days where we think back about where our lives were like, six years ago or something, and just kind of sit there in awe of, like, wow, we would have never thought we'd be here today. So.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] So great.

Hannah Comeau [00:21:10] It's been great. And I don't know, that's. Can't really say much more about that other than I'm just. We're just really happy. So.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Yeah. And that's, you know, that's how we want to be on Mormon stories. We want to celebrate and support people for whom the church works. And we also want to create a space where, if the church isn't working for some people, we celebrate their path, and we want to celebrate all paths. And so we celebrate you, Hannah, and John.

Hannah Comeau [00:21:42] Thanks. No, no, and I appreciate that, because something I did have a hard time with is I feel like people going through, you know, a crisis of faith don't often have people they can talk to about it, or not easily anyways. And so that is something I definitely struggled with. And so I appreciate avenues such as this and, you know, any other methods, of course, where people can feel free to share their stories. And I know it helped me hearing that other people have gone through something similar. And that's the interesting thing, too, is no two stories are alike. So even though, I mean, there haven't been a lot of interviews I've seen about people dealing with scrupulosity or anything very, very specific to my circumstance. Like, there's all just. There's just a common thread that weaves it all together. And I think we're all more common than we are different. And that goes for, like, between people who leave the church and people who stay in the church as well. I think. You know, I've talked with my family multiple times about this, and we've come to understand that we. Our beliefs are actually very, very similar. And that may be hard to explain, but I think we become. So we create this dichotomy of, like, if you manifest your beliefs this way, then you don't believe the same thing that I do. But, yeah, we've come to realize that it's very, very similar. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] And that's a great technique that I try to encourage when in my workshops and retreats that we do and in my personal coaching is just build on commonalities that it's easy to think that when you lose your faith, but your family members remain in or your spouse that you have no, nothing in common. And the truth is you still have 99% of your values in common. And the way you look at life, absolutely, a couple of the people and the ways you describe it change, but for all intents and purposes, you're still 99% sharing a common foundation. And so if you can just focus on that, if you can see it, recognize it, focus on that, and if the others are willing to recognize that, then you can have great relationships with everyone.

Hannah Comeau [00:24:04] Yeah, no, and I will say too, it's important to recognize that people on all sides of it do have to work very hard at it. If someone's not willing to do that, then unfortunately you can't change their mind or change how they feel about it. But I think just on an individual level, all you can do is your part in that, and hopefully others will try to do the same thing and meet you there. I feel so lucky and blessed that that has been my experience because it could have turned out so much differently. And I hear stories of people who go through awful experiences, and my heart really, truly goes out to those people. But yeah, I guess my main piece of advice is just all you can control is yourself. And I mean, there's nothing else you can do beyond that point. Everyone else is in charge of their own actions and feelings.

Final Reflections and Advice for Those with OCD

John Dehlin [00:25:11] All right, so I think we may be at the point where just to give some final perspectives, is there anything else about your story you want to tell, or do you think we kind of covered the main things you wanted to cover?

Hannah Comeau [00:25:22] Yeah, I think we're pretty good. I will say I kind of wanted to talk briefly about how my husband and I have kind of dealt with our many mental illness struggles together as a couple. So I just think it's interesting because so between the two of us, we. We deal with a lot. So my husband has adhd. He has depression, and he has anxiety. I have depression and anxiety as well, as well as ocd. And it's interesting because you look at statistics, and often people with ADHD or OCD have a hard time in relationships. And it's just interesting to observe how we've kind of been able to work past that and we've created, like, such a strong relationship, even though we still deal with those on a regular basis, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] How do you do it?

Hannah Comeau [00:26:23] Yeah, well, so takes a lot of learning. So the main area that we kind of struggled in a little bit was in school. So OCD and ADHD make for a very strange combination with approaches to, you know, studying for school and, like, I don't know, just how you approach education or whatever. So we always like to explain it how, like, the difference between OCD and ADHD is that. So if John and I were to be given, like, a set of instructions, like on some index cards that are, like, labeled or whatever, to complete a certain task, and we had to the end of the day to do it, right, John would, like, maybe not realize that the cards had a certain order that he'd pick a couple, think about doing it, set them aside, and then, you know, do some of the things. And then I, on the other hand, would have spent hours, like, the full day memorizing those cards and memorizing the order that they went in and, like, performing it as perfectly as I could. And so we just had this dynamic in our relationship where he. I couldn't understand. Like, how could you not know this? Because I had spent my whole day, like, spending hours and hours and hours, like, figuring it out. And so it just shocked me that he didn't see that as well. But then he was shocked by, like, why are you spending so much time on this? Like, you.

Hannah Comeau [00:28:07] You're.

Hannah Comeau [00:28:07] You know, you're taking so much time. You could be doing other things. And we just. It was an interesting way to have to figure that out. But we actually. And this is going back to what I had said initially about the many strengths that come with certain mental illnesses. We actually learned how to formulate those different strengths that come with ADHD and ocd, respectively, to the point where we could, I guess, learn from. Learn from each other. Like, he. John has taught me so much about just living in the moment and kind of enjoying where I'm at. John has told me several times that, like, I've really helped him to recognize when details are important and that maybe certain things he'd normally overlook are actually important. And so I think we've just been able to learn how to appreciate those things about each other instead of letting those differences or irritations just get in the way of our relationship. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] That's great. That's great.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:25] Yeah, yeah, it's been great.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] So, yeah, it's so neat. You can support each other and validate each other and have empathy for each other and patience and even compliment each other.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:36] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It works great, actually. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] But.

Hannah Comeau [00:29:43] But that being said, I mean, it has potential to be pretty damaging, too, if you aren't conscientious about those differences. And so, yeah, we. For a couple years, it took us a while to figure that out. And, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. We did have some pretty difficult times with that early on in our marriage. But I just. I guess I just really, really want people to, like, see that mental illness really is so common, so many people struggle with it, and literally, there are also so many strengths that come with those thought processes. And so for. From my perspective, getting help for mental health treatment is about mitigating those damaging effects so you can highlight on some of those positive things that come from it.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] That's great. That's such a good reminder.

Hannah Comeau [00:30:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Yeah, it's a more positive. It's more of a positive approach, which almost always yields better results.

Hannah Comeau [00:30:49] Yeah, yeah. Which is hard to do. I'm not saying that's an easy thing to accomplish, and I'm definitely still working on that. I mean, yeah, I still deal with depression and anxiety and my OCD on a regular basis, but it's kind of just about coping with it. And frankly, it's been really a good thing for me in my education. I don't think I would have gotten to where I am right now without that drive to work hard and that drive to push myself.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] Well, that's great. All right, so I'll just ask you for a final kind of summary, few statements. So if you are struggling with. If you suspect that you might be struggling with intrusive thoughts or compulsive behaviors. Hannah, what. What recommendations do you give that person? Then I'll give you a couple other scenarios.

Hannah Comeau [00:31:52] Sure. The suggestion I would give is to. Okay, it might sound. I mean, okay, it might sound kind of strange, but honestly, just be okay with that. Be okay that that is happening. Because for me, I could kind of recognize that that was happening, but I didn't want it to, and so I tried to ignore it. But the sooner you like acknowledge that it's, it's happening. The sooner you can get help for it and the sooner you can deal with it.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] So, okay, so accept it so that then you can get help.

Hannah Comeau [00:32:28] Yep. Yeah. And try, try going to therapy. I mean, if anything, like, if you go and it turns out maybe you don't have OCD or anything like that, it can't hurt you, in my opinion. So I think it's always worth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] And if I can just add that the mental health industry is kind of weird in that you can have a six year PhD and be a specialist in OCD, or you can have a two year LCSW or MFT and you're all allowed to treat everything from eating disorders to OCD to panic to personality disorders. And just like you would never just go to a general practitioner to do eye surgery in the medical field, you would go to a specialist. I just want to say that when you're dealing with ocd, go to a specialist. Go to. Don't go to a general practitioner. Go to an OCD specialist who has a track record of treating OCD with an empirically supported treatment like exposure and ritual prevention or erp, and look for OCD clinics that again, don't rely on quackeries for treatments. Don't go to a religious therapist that's going to use religion to treat scrupulosity. Go to a treatment center that specializes in empirically supported evidence based treatments for OCD that involves exposure and ritual prevention or ERP and cbt. And if you can, find someone who does the acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT for, for ocd. So that's my plug, if that's okay.

Hannah Comeau [00:34:23] Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] And you will get better. The good news is that it's hard to do exposure, but if you can stick with the treatment and not drop out, there's something. It's one of the highest success rates of all treatments in the mental health profession. So do ERP and stick with it. And there's like an 8 or 9 chance out of 10 that you'll get better or you'll see significantly positive results. All right, so if you're a family member of someone with ocd, what do you recommend?

Hannah Comeau [00:34:55] Oh, that's an interesting question. For sure. Okay, it depends. So are you talking like family member for someone who knows their diagnosis of OCD or someone who doesn't know their diagnosis?

John Dehlin [00:35:11] Yeah, if you know your family member has an OCD diagnosis or if you suspect that they do, either way, sure.

Hannah Comeau [00:35:17] Okay. Yeah. My recommendation is that try to learn as Much as you can about it. It's a common misconception, and I talked about this earlier, that OCD only manifests in certain ways. And as I hope we've kind of come to be able to share, is that it manifests in so many different ways. And so I think just becoming aware of some of those tendencies can go such a long way. And be very, very conscientious about the way you talk to that family member with OCD as well. Remember that they can maybe interpret something different than you are trying to come or trying to convey and also be willing to talk with them. Well, for me personally, it's been so helpful where there have been miscommunications, where my friends or my family members are willing to talk through it with me. And it's helped me so much to be able to see, okay, this is how I can maybe interpret these things going forward. And so I think it's a two way street. And having open communication really helps on, you know, the person's who's dealing with it. It helps on their side a lot.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] So for you, not avoiding talking about it, but being open about it, getting educated. And again, like I tried to mention earlier, not unintentionally participating in the compulsive activities and reinforcing them, which means not reassuring in many cases, not providing the reassurance that people are seeking, because people with OCD will often seek reassurance and your job is not to enable.

Hannah Comeau [00:37:07] Yeah, and that's exactly why I say to learn about the disease, because that reassuring is something that we all do so naturally. But, and so you wouldn't. It's counterintuitive to think that that would be a problem for someone dealing with ocd. But you know, when you're educated about it and you know that that's a problem, you can actually do something about it. So anyways, that's why I say that.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] So, okay, and then if you're a Mormon bishop and you're seeing a ward member with ocd, a teenage girl or boy or BYU boy or girl, and they're coming to you hyper confessing, you know, expressing severe guilt, what do you do as a Mormon bishop?

Hannah Comeau [00:37:51] Okay, I would say a couple things, honestly. I would say just to do the very best you can. Again, don't reinforce any of those things. Don't, like you said, write down the prayer and give it to the person so they can read it over and over again. I know it might be tempting to do that as you see it as maybe helpful, but again, that's just reinforcing. Second, I think this is even more important. Like refer that person to a therapist like you. You can, you can try to help, help them all you want, but ultimately that's not where they're gonna get actual treatment for that. You can be supportive, you can be kind. But yeah, refer them to a therapist. That's the biggest thing.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Yep, it is. And I'll also add not just to some random, you know, LDS or LDS family services therapist that you're used to consulting with for everything possible, refer them to an OCD specialist that will not impose their religious values or their religious biases on the treatment, but that will instead take that out of it and use an evidence based, empirically supported treatment. So find an OCD specialist who will use ethical, empirical based treatments.

Hannah Comeau [00:39:28] Yes. And a plug on that actually is your therapist that you find doesn't have to necessarily not be lds. You can find wonderful LDS therapists or therapists in any faith tradition that can't. That can do this as well. So I would say don't like rule them out or anything. There are lds. So that was my experience anyways. And so I just. Yeah, I just want to put that out there.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, a really good LDS therapist is going to be more culturally competent within the LDS tradition. Just make sure they're well trained. And I'm going to say that for more severe mental health diagnoses, it's better to go with the psychologist than a licensed clinical social worker marriage and family therapist, unless that person is trained by an expert. But generally speaking, that's. I would Pick personally a PhD level specialist for severe mental illness diagnoses and then rely on LCSWs and MSWs and master's level professionals for more kind of moderate, you know, moderate anxiety, moderate depression, moderate family conflict. That's just what I would do if I had a child, and I did have a child with a severe illness. And so that's something that is a bias of mine. And I do have a PhD in psychology, but I do think that's wise. But again, if there are master's level therapists that are trained by PhD level experts, and in those cases that's fine, but usually it's just great to go with one of these clinics that really specialize whether it's an eating disorder or ocd, go with these clinics that are really specialized in the disorder and you'll go far. It's also worth mentioning that psychiatrists can play an important role. So OCD will not get better just through medical interventions alone. So SSRIs are often selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or antidepressant medications often are usually prescribed for ocd. But it's important for you to know that OCD won't get better just with medications alone. You need the talk therapy in addition to the medications, and so you will sometimes want to consult a psychiatrist to get the medical support that you need for the OCD in addition to the talk therapy or the treatment. So don't forget the psychiatrist role in the treatment of ocd. I guess I should say.

Hannah Comeau [00:42:21] Yeah, yeah, I'll totally agree with that. I did a combination of talk therapy and medication. I met with a therapist and a psychiatrist on a regular basis. And the common, I would say definitely the combination of the two is what helps the most.

Closing Words for Those in Mixed-Faith Situations

John Dehlin [00:42:41] And last, I'll just have this be the last thing for anyone going through a faith crisis in Rexburg, in byu, Idaho, or out in a mixed faith marriage. Just a few tips for navigating a faith crisis in or out of a marriage.

Hannah Comeau [00:42:56] Yeah. Wow. I just first want to say that, like, I have so much empathy for you because it is, I think it's one of the hardest things you can go through, in my opinion. It was for me anyways and I know it was for so many other people and especially in Rexburg. I felt so alone when that's so highly concentrated with people in the church. It's just you feel again, you feel so lonely, like you're the only one who had ever gone through this. And frankly, I didn't know anyone else who had gone through this until I did more research on the Internet and, you know, found people and actually found a community of people. Yeah. My advice is just make, when you're ready to decide what you want to do, make the decision that's best for you and don't try to make it based on what you think other people will want you to do. That's going to hurt you worse in the long run, even though you might hurt some people initially. That's, that's just the hard thing about, about this is you're going to and people, people will be disappointed under. Understandably for sure. But yeah, you can't, you can't please everyone. And the last thing I'll say is that there's not a time limit on your journey either. And so, you know, I know some people who have left the church after maybe a couple weeks. I know people who are still in the midst of a faith crisis after 10 years. You know, mine was several years and I still have Questions. And so that's the other thing. Just don't try not to feel pressure from other people about making a decision in any timeframe.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] I love it. Yeah, that's great. All right, Hannah, well, it's time for you to run to a meeting. And we are just so thrilled. So many people have expressed gratitude. So if you, Hannah, will take the assignment. Not that you need one. Go back and read the comments on this Facebook live stream. So many people gave so many wonderful comments. I'll read you just one again from Kimberly Anderson. She writes, I'm selfishly, very sad that Hannah is in law school. Hannah's awareness of her various challenges, the understanding of her journey, the candidness of her ability to discuss it, leads me to believe that she would be a tremendous therapist. She is incredible.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:39] Thank you.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:41] That's so sweet.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] And lots of other listeners have expressed their gratitude as well. So let me join with them, Hannah, in thanking you for your willingness to be vulnerable, to share your story, to share your experiences so that other people can get better quicker.

Hannah Comeau [00:45:57] Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's just kind of been a main goal of mine. Having dealt with mental illness, I just want to raise awareness, and I feel like the more people who are willing to talk about it, even though it's a hard, hard topic to discuss, the more comfortable it's gonna. It's gonna be in the more and the less taboo it will be. So that's what I'm trying to do so well.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Thank you. Thank you, Hannah, and good luck with final. Good luck with finals.

Hannah Comeau [00:46:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Stay in touch. Stay in touch. All right.

Hannah Comeau [00:46:31] All right. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] All right, Hannah, thank you so much, and thanks, listeners. Please check out Hannah's Thrive profile. It's one of the most profound profiles there. You can go to mormonstories.org thrive and you can read her Thrive profile along with eight others. That's basically just an initiative to have progressive and post Mormons answer 30 questions that talk about their faith journey and to give people hope that they're not crazy, that they're not alone, and that they can find joy and healing after Mormonism. So check out the Thrive profiles. Check out Hannah's. Please forward this podcast episode to anyone who can benefit from it. Please. Thank you to everyone who supports Mormon stories. The donors make this possible. Please become a monthly donor if you value Mormon stories and want to see it continue. Thanks to everyone who supports us already. And please spread the word. Like us on Facebook, like us on itunes. Give us positive reviews. We just really appreciate all the support you can get. You want to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we would love to get ideas or tips or tricks or feedback for future episodes. Comment on our blog page and just keep spreading the love. And as long as you guys will support Mormon Stories, we'll keep doing it. So thanks to everyone who tuned in. Thanks again, Hannah. You're awesome.

Hannah Comeau [00:47:51] Yeah, thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Give John our best and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody. Bye, Hannah.

Hannah Comeau [00:48:04] Bye.

Closing Music and Farewell

Hannah Comeau [00:48:22] Come, come you saints no toil, no nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better find far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard

John Dehlin [00:49:26] t

Hannah Comeau [00:49:27] not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now now sh the fight Gird up your lo fresh courage take our God will ever us for sake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, wow. Well, all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy days All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spiritual again to see the sa the rest of tame Or I will make this ch swell oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is well well, all is well oh, all is well. All is well all is well Sam.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.