Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guests: Angela Romero, Julie Hanks, Lindsey Lundholm
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introductions
Angela Romero [00:00:00] Foreign.
John Dehlin [00:00:11] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lin. It's August 15, 2022 and this is a special edition of Mormon Stories because we are announcing a very important rally that that is taking place this Friday, August 15th at 6:30pm at the Utah state capital.
John Dehlin [00:00:34] As those of you know, the recent Associated Press story about a really horrible sexual abuse cover up case that happened within a Mormon context in Arizona has hit the news. And while this Mormon church abuse hotline story has been, you know, covered 10 for 10 or 20 years, it's in the news again. We've been covering it very closely on Mormon Stories Podcast. I think we've done four episodes already last week and we hope to do at least a few more in the coming days. Not a fun topic to be digging into, but we're committed to it because we can't think of very many more important topics than this one just because it seems to be such a significant issue.
John Dehlin [00:01:26] So we, we found out about this rally that's happening and basically the rally is in support of legislation within the Utah House of Representatives to make religious clergy in Utah, as I understand it, to make religious clergy mandatory reporters, not optional reporters of abuse, but mandatory reporters of abuse.
John Dehlin [00:01:55] That's my understanding of what the rally is about. Again, it's this Friday at 6:30pm at the Utah State Capitol. They're asking everyone to wear teal in support of sexual abuse survivors. We'll give details to the rally in, in the description, but today we have three guests on Joining us today we have Utah Representative Angela Romero.
John Dehlin [00:02:23] She has championed this legislation over the past few years. She is sponsoring the rally and will be a keynote speaker at the rally. We also have back on Mormon Stories podcast, a dear friend, Dr. Julie Hanks. She is a therapist but also the owner of a counseling center here in the Salt Lake Valley. I think it's Wasatch Family Therapy, but she can tell us in a second where she supports therapy and mental health for, for people in Utah. And then we have Lindsay Lundholm who is one of the main, if not the main organizer for this rally.
John Dehlin [00:03:04] Welcome all three of you to Mormon Stories Podcast. Let's quickly allow each of you to now introduce yourselves and maybe do a better job than I was able to do. Representative Romero, why don't you go first. Is there anything you want to add to my introduction?
Angela Romero [00:03:20] No, just that I was born and raised in Tooele, Utah and I represent House District 26, which is salt Lake City and West Valley.
John Dehlin [00:03:30] Excellent. Well, we're Just so honored to have you on Mormon Stories. Thanks for joining us, Julie. Dr. Hanks, what do you want to add to my introduction? Did I get Wasatch Family?
Julie Hanks [00:03:40] You got it right. Yeah. We actually have three locations, one in Lehigh, Sandy, and one in Farmington. So we've been around for 20 years helping Utahns with mental health and relationship problems, and we see a lot of sexual abuse.
John Dehlin [00:03:59] Excellent. And that's a great thing to know. I just had someone today ask me if they knew a good therapist to help someone who's dealing with healing from the trauma of abuse. And so we're very glad you can offer yourself and your organizations as a resource. But also we're just grateful that you're very o. You know, as a. As a committed member of the LDS Church and as a mental health professional. I'm just super grateful, Julie, for all you've been doing to bring awareness to this issue. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to have you on the show. So thank you for that.
Julie Hanks [00:04:33] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:04:33] Thanks, John and Lindsay, anything else you want to add to your introduction really quick?
Lindsey Lundholm [00:04:39] Yeah, I'll just add I grew up in Idaho, but I've been living in Utah for the past five or six years. I grew up in a big Mormon family, so the Mormon community is close to my heart and wanting to make it a safe place because I have family in that community, nieces, nephews that I care deeply about. And I want to make the Mormon community, but not only that, but other denominations, a safe place for children. I work at a nonprofit that provides services for domestic violence and sexual assault survivors. So this is something that's very close to me in my personal and professional life.
John Dehlin [00:05:25] Excellent. Well, thanks to you, Lindsay, and all those who are helping you organize this event, because that's not a small thing. Well, Representative Romero, this is not the first year where efforts have been made in this regard. So if you would like. Maybe. Can we start, Representative Romero, with you talking to us about maybe what was the background that led to this being introduced a few years back into the, into the congressional efforts here in Utah? If you want to talk about the way the laws have been and what attempts have been made to try and change them, past and present and anything else you want to share in terms of your background and why this issue is important to you? Maybe let's, let's have you start. Would that be okay?
History of Child Protection Legislation in Utah
Angela Romero [00:06:18] Yeah, that would be great. I was elected in 2012, and so my first bill that I ever introduced on child sex abuse was in 2014. And I worked with Elizabeth Smart and Deondra Brown, and it was House Bill 286, which was Child sex abuse preventative education. And so this bill had a lot of opposition to, and. But we were able to pass it the day before the session was going to end. And I battled the Eagle Forum and all these really conservative organizations because they felt like we shouldn't be talking about child sex abuse in the schools and that this should be something taught in the homes.
Angela Romero [00:06:58] But as we know in Utah, and we look at sexual assault, you know, one in three girls and one in six boys will have had some kind of experience, some kind of sexual assault trauma before the age of 18.
Angela Romero [00:07:14] And the stories I kept on hearing over and over again from a lot of survivors that I've worked with over the years is that they had went to a spiritual leader, whether it was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whether it was the Catholic Church, whether it was another religious organization.
Angela Romero [00:07:33] And for many of them, they felt like nothing ever happened to their perpetrator, and they felt like nothing ever. They didn't get the help and the services they needed. They felt a lot of times like they weren't believed because of who their perpetrator was. And so in 2018, 2019, I started to meet with these individuals and decide whether I want to run the bill. I have to give you all my background. I was raised in Utah. I think that's important.
Angela Romero [00:08:02] But I was raised Roman Catholic, and my family is fundamental Catholic. And so they're. They're. They were opposed to me running this piece of legislation because of the sacrament, sacrament of reconciliation and confession, but with the blessing of my grandma. She said, if you're, if you. You're speaking out for survivors, do it. So I ran the bill, but it got a lot of opposition. And the Catholic Church was kind of front and center. But I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and other religious institutions were working hand in hand with the Catholic Church to prevent this bill from getting out of the Rules Committee and assigned to a standing committee and being heard on the floor.
Angela Romero [00:08:49] So just to explain the process, in the Utah legislature, we only meet for 45 days, and in those 45 days, there's hundreds of bills that are introduced. In order for a bill to even be heard in committee, it has to be let out of the Rules Committee and it has to be assigned to a committee.
Angela Romero [00:09:08] I knew that the bill probably wasn't going to come out of the Rules Committee because I had met with the speaker and met with others. And there was a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of misrepresentation of this bill. And so I felt like if I couldn't get it out of the rules Committee, I was going to do education. And so there was a lot of education on this bill and why I was running it. There was a poll done by the Salt Lake Tribune and most people support this bill, but a lot of people just, you know, within these institutions of power, anytime you're talking about sexual assault, anytime you're talking about child sex abuse, a lot of people just, it makes them feel uncomfortable.
Angela Romero [00:09:48] And so when I heard of the AP story this last, I was on a flight to meet actually with the Vice President of the United States on another issue. And, and I heard about the AP story and I talked to one of the reporters that had did the story and he asked me if I was in refile the bill. And at that time I decided to refile. Refile the bill.
John Dehlin [00:10:15] Okay, that's great, great history. Angela, if you could just take us back a little bit. Do we, do you happen to know, you know, when whatever law, you know, we, we know that in Utah, clergy are not mandatory reporters, if I'm correct, and instead they have the option of reporting if they choose to. Is that, am I correct in describing the current state in Utah?
Why Clergy Are Excluded from Mandatory Reporting
Angela Romero [00:10:42] You're, you're correct in the fact that they're excluded from being mand mandatory reporters. Every other profession is required to report if somebody confesses that they are harming a child, sexually abusing. And that's kind of what I focus on, a child. They're mandated reporters, but there's an exemption for religious institutions because of that clergy privilege clause in the law. And what has been told to me is if we were to get rid of that, then we're taking people's first Amendment right away. But, but this law has passed in other states. It just recently passed in California, it's passed in other eastern states. And so again, for me it's, do we stand up for a perpetrator or do we stand up for the victims of this perpetrator?
Angela Romero [00:11:31] Because as we know, when it comes to child sex abuse, it's usually more than one victim out there. And so I really feel like it's important that religious institutions and clergy within those institutions should be mandatory reporters because. And at times some of those individuals are the ones that are harming children. And so for me, this is, is a no brainer. But again, we're, we're going against organizations that have, they feel like this is their way of doing their confession. It's their confession, the person is admitting to what they've done and that this person's going to not do it again. But as we know, that's not the case.
Angela Romero [00:12:12] And, and it was very alarming to me when I was reading the AP story to kind of see within the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints how this all played out and how this individual was allowed to have access to these young women, his children, and was did years and years of abuse. And anytime I talk to victims of child sex abuse, many of them never come forward until their late 40s, even in their 50s, because they're afraid no one will believe them. And if you can't trust in an institution that's supposed to be your spiritual guide, who can you trust? And so for me, I really feel like we as lawmakers need to hold these institutions just as accountable as we would do a doctor, a teacher, anyone else who is working with the public.
John Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah, I'll just say that we've been covering this again, as I mentioned in at least four episodes last week on Mormon Stories, I've personally read or interacted with thousands of people who have reported abuse to me within an LDS context. And while I'm sympathetic to their, for, for the, for all churches to have kind of a, a clergy penitent, you know, confidentiality, what we've uncovered is several problems with it. And then, you know, Julie, I'd love to have your feedback here as well, but if I could just enumerate the problems that we have while wanting to respect re relationships between clergy and their parishioners.
John Dehlin [00:13:46] One of the main problems is that we know that the Mormon Church's helpline, which is currently staffed by paralegals or social workers with a direct line to the church's law firm. We know that the default advice that has been given to bishops, Mormon bishops, is if you have the choice legally of whether or not to report, don't report.
John Dehlin [00:14:09] And the problem with that, that we see it, is that the church is in a bit of a conflict of interest because the church, unfortunately, its reputation can be harmed if there's reporting. And also it can cause disruption within the local congregations and the church can be sued.
John Dehlin [00:14:29] The more this gets out there, the more that it's reported. And so while the church, well, I'm sure all churches would want abuse to end and there's no church that would probably ever condone abuse. My understanding is you can't trust families to report because they tend to not want to report. That's why you have mandatory reporters, and you can't trust churches to deal with it because there's this conflict of interest, but also because so often when they handle it internally, people don't get notified. Ward or stake members don't get notified.
John Dehlin [00:15:07] It's hushed up, it's, it's kept under wraps. And that leaves victims vulnerable to repeat abuse. And it leaves abusers, leaves them available to repeat abuse within their communities. Now, that's Angela Romero. Before we bring Julie in, does that sound like an okay summary of some of the problems that that are facing by leaving the law as it is?
Angela Romero [00:15:32] Definitely. And again, we've seen this across all different institutions here that religious institutions in Utah and just the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints is the most prominent church here. And most of the people I've talked to have come from that religion and felt like they, they weren't listened to or a perpetrator, like within the Catholic Church was taken off of certain duties and placed somewhere else where other children were at risk. So again, it wasn't solving the problem, it was just hiding the problem. And, and we've seen this go on since the beginning of time. And it's really, as a lawmaker, it's my job to make sure that I'm protecting our most vulnerable, which is children. And so that's what I'm doing with this bill, as well as my colleague, Representative Leiban.
John Dehlin [00:16:27] Beautiful. I'm going to come back to Representative Romero. Julie, let's bring you in. I know that you've, you and your staffs have probably had to deal with a lot of abuse cases. Why don't you just share with us any and all reactions or perspectives you have in this issue?
The Case for Making Clergy Mandatory Reporters
Julie Hanks [00:16:46] I first want to say abuse happens in Utah. A lot of people want to deny that abuse happens. And 80% of reported cases know their perpetrator. And so this is extended family members. It's people in the ward, in the neighborhood, you know, parents of friends.
Julie Hanks [00:17:09] So this is happening, and it's doing so much damage to children and adults. So many adults that I've seen over the past 25 plus years in Utah have an abuse history that's not been dealt with because no one reported it or they felt so much shame or the perpetrator guilted them and made them feel scared of reporting or scared that something bad would happen to their family if they reported.
Julie Hanks [00:17:42] So there's a need for clergy to be mandated reporters, just like I am as a therapist. If someone comes in and tells me I'm abusing children, I have to report it. So I don't see how bishops or clergy of any faith could be exempt from that, because victims need to be protected before the abuse can stop and. And perpetrators, their spiritual salvation, that's secondary to they've committed a crime.
Julie Hanks [00:18:23] And so let's deal with the crime and then after that, deal with their repentance or whatever penitence process that they need to go through. Let's deal with the crime first and then the spiritual ramifications afterward.
John Dehlin [00:18:41] Absolutely. Do you, Julie, do you. Do you have experiences that are. You're comfortable sharing or even wanting to share about how, you know, how this situation often happens in. In various churches that you've seen within the community just so that you can. You can maybe validate why this is so important and so necessary?
Julie Hanks [00:19:09] I have personal experiences, actually, where I've known people who have been abused and told clergy and other adults, and no one reported it. So it happens. I'm not comfortable sharing any professional examples, but this happens. And part of the problem, as I see it, is that the clergy are often friends with. With the perpetrator. They may be in business together, they may be in the same congregation, they may be related. And so that creates a conflict. You know, it needs to be really clear that clergy need to report and protect the victim above protecting their business or social or religious relationships.
John Dehlin [00:19:59] Or familial. Yeah, like.
Julie Hanks [00:20:01] Familial.
John Dehlin [00:20:01] Yeah, yeah, that's. That's so important. Thanks. Thanks, Julie. Representative Romero, back to you. I have a question in terms of opposition, tell us a little bit about in the past. Well, what leads to a piece of legislation like this being taken seriously and even having a chance of succeeding? And then what are the dynamics that can cause a piece of legislation like this to be ignored or killed? And then I. And then I want to talk about what we can do to make it successful versus not. And I think that's where we bring Lindsay in.
Angela Romero [00:20:41] Yeah. You know, this is a challenging. I think the doctor, like, nailed it. And what it is, is I get a lot of questions like, what about false reporting? And I've had these questions asked to me because I've been trying to pass a bill on affirmative consent for the last four years. But a lot of these bills take time and awareness and education, like we're doing now, and how. I'm asking many of the people that will be listening to this podcast to educate their lawmaker versus accusing them of not supporting the bill, just having a conversation with their elected official, sharing a personal story, letting them know how this impacts the community and the.
Angela Romero [00:21:24] And so what I'm going to do, and I'm going to partner up with my colleague, Representative Lyman, and he and I are on total opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to political ideology. But we both know that something needs to be done and that we need to protect our children. And so a lot of this is the education and the awareness. What happened when I ran this bill the first time is I had so much opposition, but I didn't have a lot of people who were in support of the legislation reaching out to lawmakers. The Catholic League is not even based here in Utah.
Angela Romero [00:21:59] Neither is Bill Donahue. But they did a smear attack, so they attacked me personally. Not only did they attack the legislation, but they started to attack me personally and asking for my excommunication from Catholicism. And so again, I think what we need to do with this piece of legislation this next session is just do the education ahead of time. When we, when I ran HB200, which was mandating the testing of all sexual assault kits, that was a five year process. So it was getting all the partners on board and individuals on board and then eventually introducing the legislation. And, you know, since last year, September of last year, Utah no longer has a backlog when it comes to sexual assault kits.
Angela Romero [00:22:41] So I wanted to give people hope that some, something like this can be done. And it has been done in other states. But it's going to take a lot of education with lawmakers because I think they need to get pressure from their constituents and let their constituents need to let them know how important this is and why it's important because this is really, you know, we're talking about policy, but politics plays a huge role in this as well.
How Utah Residents Can Take Action
John Dehlin [00:23:06] So I'm going to ask you an absurd question, but let's say our viewers and listeners, those of them who are in Utah, how do they find out who their representative is? Because we tend to pay attention to federal politicians, but not so much state or local politicians, maybe beyond the mayor. So how does someone find out who the representative is? And then how do they figure out how to contact that representative?
Angela Romero [00:23:29] You know, that that's a good question. They can just, I think it's, they can go to Utah. Www.utah.ledge.gov I will actually, I will look up that information so I can send, I should have had that on hand for people to identify their, who their elected official is. But you can go to, I know you can go to the elections website and you can identify, you can find out where your voting Precinct is. And so that should list you, that should list all your elected officials. And so it's just a matter of entering your address in and identifying who your elected official is or going to the Utah House of Representatives website site and there should be a form you can fill out and it'll direct it, it will send it directly to the elected official based on your address.
John Dehlin [00:24:17] Okay, so we'll have my staff and, or our, our dear viewers and listeners go figure out the right URL. Someone's going to post that soon, I'm sure in the comments and then we're going to include that in the description. So everyone who's viewing and listening either in the comments section or in the description, you will be seeing soon a link to how you can find your representative. And Representative Romero, do you recommend emails? Do you recommend handwritten letters? Do you recommend showing up at their office office hours? Do you recommend lunches? Like, what's the most effective way to have a meaningful engagement with your representative?
Angela Romero [00:24:51] I recommend all of the above. I like to remind people that we're a part time legislature, so majority of us have full time jobs. And so if it's sending an email, sending a private message on social media, a lot of most elected officials have social media or sending a text message to their elected officials just letting them know that they want to talk about the issue.
Angela Romero [00:25:15] Most of my colleagues, I think probably 99% of them will respond back and let you know where they stand on an issue. And so it's just letting them know that hey, I'm your constituent. This is an issue that's concerning to me. I'd like to set up some time to talk to you. And I mean I do this so I just assume all my colleagues do. This is, I'll make time to meet with someone, especially if they're my constituent. I prioritize my constituents first and I'll set up a time to meet with them to talk about policy issue. The, the one thing that doesn't work and it doesn't work for me as well, is when someone's like, you need to do this because of this, this, this, it's just, it just, it automatically turns me off even if I'm in agreement agreement with that individual.
Angela Romero [00:25:58] And so really it's about, and the chain letters don't work for me either. So really it's about personalizing it, saying, hi, Representative, I'm so and so this is my address, I live in your district. I'm really concerned about this issue and I'd love a chance to sit down and talk to you about it or can you email me your response back? So there's, there's many ways to engage with your elected official and if you're elected official is not engaging with you, I think it's really important for you to think about that the next time you go vote because you want to make sure you have someone that's representing you that's going to listen to you whether they agree with you or not.
Angela Romero [00:26:35] There are a lot of people in my district that, that we may not share the same policy. You know, we might not stand on the same side when it comes to policy, but I always take the time to get back to them because that's, that's what I'm elected to do.
John Dehlin [00:26:49] I love it. Okay, we someone, Jen, I think just shared the link to a way for you to just type in your address and look up who your representative is. So we've got that link out. We'll include that in the description in the show notes as well. Lindsay, before I jump to you, I'm going to ask you a quick this is kind of maybe the toughest question, Representative Romero, that we'll ask today.
Church Influence and Legislative Challenges
John Dehlin [00:27:12] Like there's, there's probably a perspective, a perception that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and their lobbyists maybe have an overwhelmingly insurmountable influence in Utah politics on the legislature such that someone might feel so discouraged or cynical that they'd say, you know what, the Mormon Church is just going to always get their way no matter what. And if the Mormon Church wanted mandatory reporting, they would have made that happen 50 years ago. They don't want mandatory reporting. And anything Representative Romero or anyone else does is likely to be defeated. If somebody had sort of a discouraged or a cynical perspective, is there anything you would say to help them feel more optimistic and not to give up? But that efforts are worth making even if the predominant maybe influencers in the state might be opposed to something like this.
Angela Romero [00:28:09] I always remind people I'm a brown girl who grew up in Tooele, Utah, not of the predominant religion. And my grandparents were farmers. And so I've always had to fight for what I have. And I'm first generation when it comes to getting a college degree. And so for me, I was raised with this perseverance that you never give up if you truly believe in something. And this is about protecting children. This is about holding perpetrators accountable because for so long we haven't helped these perpetrators accountable and they go on to hurt other children. And you see generations of trauma because These individuals are able to get away with it.
Angela Romero [00:28:51] So when someone feels like their voice doesn't matter, there are ways. If you feel like your elected official is not listening to you, there are other ways to organize instead, still be involved and to support issues that you care about. And so the only way we're going to change things is at the ballot box or if we put pressure on our elected officials to listen to us and let them know why this issue is so important to you. So I always feel like, you know, it's easy to get jaded and to say they don't listen to us, but at the same time there, there are many of us who that definitely don't listen to any religious institution.
Angela Romero [00:29:30] And we still make those decisions. And so all we need to get it first, we need to get out of committee. And all we need in The House is 38 votes to get it to the Senate. So I always remind people that if maybe your elected official isn't responsive to it, identify the other elect officials are that are and work with them to maybe help guide our colleagues that may not listen. You know, when I was running the child sex abuse bill, Ken Ivory was one of my biggest supporters of Mike Noel. And the reason why Ken Ivory was one of my biggest supporters is because his wife had been sexually abused by one of her teachers.
Angela Romero [00:30:07] And so you never know how an issue might impact a person. So you never, you can never judge a book by its cover. So the least you can do is reach out to your elected official to see if that they, if they support the efforts and have them help us move it forward. Because a lot of times it's about the ask and a lot of times people will follow where their constituents are leading them because again, we're elected to represent the people. And if your elected official isn't listening to you, instead of just sitting down and doing nothing, run against them or find someone to run against them or don't vote for them.
Angela Romero [00:30:41] And so I think people need to remember that when we're talking about policy because I'm in the super minority, there are 75 members in the House of Representatives, only 18 of us are Democrat. But yeah, I pass life changing legislation, it's because of my perseverance and I won't give up. And so that's what I need people to do with me on this particular issue is maybe it doesn't happen this year, maybe it doesn't happen next year, but maybe it'll happen the year after. We can't give up, we can't let all these victims down because there are so many people that stay victims and they never become survivors.
Angela Romero [00:31:14] And, and we just see this cycle of trauma continue on. And it's, it's troubling for me. And so I want to, I, as an elected official, I want to train that, I want to change that cycle and make sure that we're, we're focusing on our most vulnerable and we're holding these perpetrators accountable and we're holding institutions accountable if they're covering up for them.
John Dehlin [00:31:36] Man, I want to give a hallelujah to Representative Romero. How about you, Julie and Lindsey, really quickly, before we throw it to Lindsay. I'm just going to say, you know, I've, I've been here many, many years in Utah. I could think of a couple instances where maybe legislation that, that predominant religions wanted were, were defeated or, or passed or got through.
John Dehlin [00:32:01] You know, one instance, I remember several years ago when some legislation started getting floating around to make Utah a two party recording state, which would have made it a lot harder to record private conversations. And I remember when the word got out about that and people, and I was pretty sure that at least one church that I know of really wanted to decrease the number of recordings that were able to happen within the state. And I remember enough people voiced opposition that that legislation died and never really made it out of committee. Another example is just the cannabis laws. Who would have ever thought that medical cannabis would be legalized in Utah?
John Dehlin [00:32:40] But there was enough support for it that even predominant powers weren't able to stop that legislation. So those are just two examples of successes. Does that sound right, Representative Romero?
Angela Romero [00:32:55] That is correct. And it's just continuing to put that pressure on, on our elected officials and letting them know why this is so important to us. And you know, this is one thing that I continue to advocate for when up in the, at the Capitol, is we spend so much money on rehabilitating people and we spend so much money on prisons and, you know, again, the rehabilitation of these individuals. But we're always begging for money when it comes to helping survivors and victims of crime, and particularly sexual assault and domestic violence. And really why it's so scary for people to look at that is because then we have to look at ourselves as a society.
Angela Romero [00:33:36] We have to look at ourselves as a country. And we have to look at why systems are in place. And so a lot of people don't want those systems to change because then it takes away their privilege. And so a lot of this is built on the foundations of this country and the state and the patriarchy. And a lot of people don't want to have those conversations because they're uncomfortable. And then they have to look about how they participated in this and allowed it to happen. And so all of us are guilty to some degree for not doing certain things about it, but some of us are afraid to speak out or we don't have the power to speak out.
Angela Romero [00:34:11] And so that's why it's so important as an elected official that I put this, you know, that is my platform to be that voice for people that may not have a seat at the table. And I'll continue to do that. And so passionate about this issue because I've heard so many stories from so many victims and it's, it's heartbreaking to see these people, as I'm sure the doctor could tell you, carry this for forever. And them, you know, it impacts their life outcome. And then some people get caught up in, in these, these cycles and they stay in these abusive patterns and they're, they're always punishing themselves and they, they never allow themselves to heal and move forward.
Angela Romero [00:34:51] And so for me, as a policymaker, if we can prevent it from happening, we can also help that person live a prosperous life and the life that they should be living trauma free.
John Dehlin [00:35:05] I love it. And even if in a given year the legislation fails any representative that votes against it, that forces them to be on the record such that then that can be taken into account in the following election year, you know, so that there's accountability. Is that, is that how it works? Representative ROMERO that is correct.
Angela Romero [00:35:25] But it first has to get to a committee and it first has to even get to the floor. And so those, those have been the challenges with this, this piece of legislation. And again, I think it's a lot of misunderstanding of what this bill is trying to do. And again, I think it goes back to the doctor and what she talked about when we're talking about most victims of child sex abuse know their perpetrator. A lot of these individuals are, they work with us, they go to church with us. They, they're, they're, they're not the, the monster that people describe them to be. And so it's really important that we expose that because just because it might be your friend or your family member member, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes they're committing.
Angela Romero [00:36:10] Because it's easy for people to make excuses saying, oh, that's just Bob, that's just Ted. You know, it just happened one time. But in most of these situations, we know it's not one time. We know there's more than one victim.
John Dehlin [00:36:22] I remember we had, we had an attorney on last week, Tim Koznoff, who said the average pedophile has 100 victims. So it almost doesn't just happen once. Okay, Lindsay, you've been super patient. We would love to hear, number one, why this issue is so personal and so important to you. And then we'd love to hear all about the. The activity on Friday. And then, Julie, Dr. Inks, we want to come right back to you to have you give some final input as well. So, Lindsey, please, please jump in. Let's hear from you.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:37:01] Awesome. If it's all right, I want to speak to your previous question, John, about how it can feel discouraging, especially in Utah, can feel like we're, David, with our slingshots going up against Goliath when we're tackling some of these bigger issues, especially when it affects religious institutions that have a lot of influence in our state.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:37:27] I just want to encourage everyone to, I guess, to stay positive that there really is a large following. A lot of people that support this bill and want to see this law changed and want to protect children. There was actually a survey. We'll have to probably find it and link it in the comments, but the majority of Utahns are in favor of having clergy be mandated reporters. So this is something that, that people, we want to see change.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:38:08] And so, like Representative Romero was saying, it really comes down to getting loud and reaching out to our representatives, educating people in your sphere of influence, talking to other people, educating yourself on these issues and showing up to the ballot box. Because we can change, whether it's this year or next year, we believe we can make it happen.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:38:35] Something positive that happened not too long ago was when Sam Young was advocating with the Protect LDS Children movement to make it so that children didn't have to answer sexually explicit questions as minors alone with an adult man.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:39:00] We saw opposition to that, but we did see policy change. So even if it's not big, we can see those, those smaller steps changing. So I just wanted to speak to that.
John Dehlin [00:39:15] Beautiful. Totally agree. Yeah, let's. Let's be positive or optimistic. And now is the time. There's so much talk and so much inertia. Now's the time to do it.
Upcoming Rally at the Utah State Capitol
Lindsey Lundholm [00:39:26] All right.
John Dehlin [00:39:27] Well, Lindsay, do you want to. Do you want to tell us, you know, anything about what makes you so passionate about this and then tell us about the march itself or the activity?
Lindsey Lundholm [00:39:36] Yeah, definitely. So, you know, I'm one of those people that is a survivor of this issue, like Dr. Hanks was talking about, like Rep. Representative Romero was saying, there's so many people who have similar stories. And I'm one of those people who I was experiencing abuse and I went to someone that I trusted and looked up to and believed could help me.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:40:07] Unfortunately, I didn't receive that help and the abuse was able to continue. And so it's kind of this cycle like we've. We've talked about, where if we're prioritizing the perpetrator, if we're prioritizing their repentance of sin before their accountability of a crime they've committed and before the protection of the victim, then that's something that needs to change.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:40:41] And like I said, I have family who attend the LDS church, I have people who are close to me, and I want to see this changed because I know I'm not alone in being affected by this. I know there's so many more, and it's something that needs to stop.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:41:08] And in my line of work as an educator, I teach people about consent. I teach people about sexual violence. And we know that the majority of people who experience abuse, like Dr. Hanks said, is by people they know. You know, those neighbors, those family members.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:41:32] And often from a religious perspective, you know, family is very important. You don't want to break up family. There's a lot of emphasis put on forgiveness instead of, you know, making things right for the victim. And so that's a little bit of about why I am passionate about this.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:41:56] I saw the AP article. I'm in a few groups, and it was shared to it, and it was something that made me feel a lot of feelings. One of them was anger, you know, that this had happened to so many people and it will continue to happen if we don't stop.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:42:22] So I was in a way of, like, coping. I was making fake rally posters to feel like I had some control and like I was doing something. And I sent it to some of the groups I'm a part of. And I was like, I made this. This fake poster for a rally. It's the only thing that's making me feel better right now.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:42:46] And I was like, you know what? I feel like we could actually do this. I feel like this should be a thing. And so a group that I'm a part of with some incredible, bright, brilliant women, they stepped right up and were like, how can I help? Let's get this started. Let's start researching this. Let's figure out what we can do. And so we decided to put on the rally for this Friday.
John Dehlin [00:43:22] Excellent. And do you want to tell everybody what's going to happen at the rally and any other details about it that you want them to know?
Lindsey Lundholm [00:43:31] Yeah. So at the rally, our keynote speaker is going to be Representative Romero. And, you know, speaking a little bit like she did today, why this law is important, and the new bill she's introducing, talking about how we can work in Utah to get it passed.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:43:56] And we also like this movement. We didn't want to reinvent the will with this because there's so many great experts, you know, like Dr. Hanks, Natasha Helfer, people who have been on the ground with this for years, you know, working to make change with this.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:44:17] So we wanted to include people like that at our rally to really be experts to speak on this. So we're going to have speakers, you know, from the therapy background, from the clergy background, speak about why this is important.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:44:35] And we really wanted to make sure it was intersectional, get a lot of important, key people involved, you know, make it diverse and interfaith. Because, you know, as we talked about already today, this isn't just an LDS thing there.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:44:59] We want to include every church and, you know, every profession to come out and. And support this. So that's a little bit of what to expect at the rally. We'll have some speakers, and we'll have a portion where people can share their experiences, whether it's anonymous, someone will read it for them, or if they feel like they want to share it publicly, they'll do that.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:45:27] We are working the committee that's working on this. We're working really hard to make this trauma informed. This topic can be very triggering and really hard for those who've experienced it or know loved ones who have experienced this abuse.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:45:45] And so we're working really hard to make sure that, you know, our speakers understand that and approach this with compassion and from a place of really wanting to support people. And we want those who attend this rally to feel supported and uplifted and surrounded by love and feel safe.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:46:10] So if there's any survivors listening, we want you to feel comfortable. We want you to know that there's a space for you at the rally and within this movement. And there's a lot of great steps that you can take to get involved for those who are survivors and those who aren't. We've already kind of talked about some of those things today, like calling your officials, you know, emailing the representatives, letting them know you want this bill to pass, sharing your stories or sharing the, the rally with your friends and letting people know that this is important and we should all speak up about this.
John Dehlin [00:46:58] Beautiful. Amen. All right, so let me just reiterate and then I'm going to bring it back to Julie and then also Representative romero. So it's 8:30. It's 6:30. Sorry, 6:30pm Mountain Time, Friday, August 15, at the Utah State Capitol, where Teal, if he can, in support of survivors, Dr. Julie Hanks, I'd love to have you share any other thoughts or reactions or ideas or comments that you've thought of just between been the last time you're sharing and now. What else would you like to share?
Julie Hanks [00:47:32] First, I want to say thank you to Lindsay for sharing your story. That is really brave and I just want to honor you for that. John, I, I think you said August 16th, but it's the 19th. Maybe I misheard you. But anyway, the. So I just want to make sure everybody has the right date.
John Dehlin [00:47:53] Oh my goodness. The, the text that I was sent. Okay. Yep.
Julie Hanks [00:47:57] August, isn't it the 19th.
John Dehlin [00:47:59] 19th. Okay, Julie, thank you.
Julie Hanks [00:48:01] Yeah, no problem.
Angela Romero [00:48:03] Okay.
Julie Hanks [00:48:06] In my experience, how people respond to victims either supports them or re traumatizes them. And there are victims, survivors that I've worked with who were actually more traumatized by not being supported and heard by parents or loved ones than the actual abuse, like that was what they talked about more in therapy. So we need to protect victims first. We need to protect victims, believe them and get them help.
Angela Romero [00:48:42] It.
Julie Hanks [00:48:43] It's not about supporting, you know, or like keeping families together. No. If there's abuse happening in a family, they shouldn't be together. We need to protect the victims first and respond in loving, compassionate support ways to the victims first. And then the perpetrators need to be held accountable. So I just want to send love to all of the, the survivors that are watching and listening. And my heart goes out to you. You're strong and, and you can, you can heal. Get some support.
John Dehlin [00:49:20] Excellent. Dr. Inks, did I hear that you, Julie, will be speaking at the event on Friday? Did I get that right or not?
Julie Hanks [00:49:27] No, I will not. I have a previous commitment, but I would have loved to.
John Dehlin [00:49:31] Yeah, no worries. No worries. Excellent. Thanks. Thanks, Julie. Representative Romero, any final thoughts you would like to share either about Friday or about just this piece of legislation?
Angela Romero [00:49:43] Yeah, I just hope to see everybody on Friday. And I also want to point out that this is not an attack on anyone's spirituality or any, any religious institution. This is about protecting children and holding the perpetrators accountable as we've heard over and over again.
Angela Romero [00:50:03] A lot of these individuals are never held accountable for what they've done. And so they continue to go and reoffend and more people experience trauma. So what we have to do is that's why I'm running this piece of legislation is hopefully to get these institutions to report, to have these spiritual leaders reporting so that we're not as mentioned before, protecting families, but we're protecting that child and making sure that they're getting the help and the services they need. Because I'm sure Dr. Hanks hears this as much as I do. I have people who are in their 30s and their 40s coming and reaching out to me and I always send them to the services because I'm only an elected official and I can do the policy and the politics and I want to make sure, because I don't have the proper tools sometimes that I get them the help and the service they need, that I send them someone like Dr.
Angela Romero [00:50:53] Hanks and someone who can help them heal. Because I think that the therapy piece is critical and there are services out there for individuals that they can't afford it to get the therapy and the help they need to survive this trauma that happened to them. Because I think in majority of the cases with some of these individuals, they don't want to go into law enforcement and will never afford force a victim to take something to law enforcement if they don't want to. Because the. The our my focus as a policy maker is to make sure they get the help and the services they need to heal and move forward.
Angela Romero [00:51:27] And that's why it's so critical that these religious institutions and these leaders report these perpetrators and. And not protect them because they might be their friend or they might be a good person and they made a mistake. Take we need to re recenter the victim and ensure that they get the services they need so they can move forward in their life.
John Dehlin [00:51:48] Excellent. I. I want to give a quick shout out to Meg, my friend Meg, who made me aware of this and also she just texted me to let me know that it's Natasha. As maybe has been said earlier, Natasha Helfer will be speaking at this rally, among others.
John Dehlin [00:52:06] Lindsay, I want to join Julie in thanking you for your vulnerability and sharing your own personal experience. And yeah, I want to also just say that for those of you who think that this would in any way represent something negative towards any religious institution, in my experience, this is going to help all religious institutions in the state. And here's what I mean. When any religion is perceived as covering up abuse, number one, it's going to harm the reputation of that religion. And then also it's going to open that religious institution up to lawsuits. And so having institutions immediately report eliminates any chance of that institution being perceived as covering things up or being sued for a cover up.
John Dehlin [00:53:04] In addition, if you care at all about these bishops, for example, and Julie, I would guess that you care very much about bishops within the LDS Church. This is a protection to bishops, because if Mormon bishops or church leaders report, they themselves are far, far less likely to ever be sued when they comply with the law and they're not perceived as covering something up. And so, and then if you just care about any of the members, the children within any of these religious institutions, again, bishops, Mormon bishops, for example, Catholic priests, they're not trained to investigate abuse. They're not trained to handle abuse.
John Dehlin [00:53:48] They're not trained to determine who's guilty and who's not. And by the way, just because someone is reported doesn't mean they end up being charged and tried and potentially convicted. That's all up to the social workers and the judicial system, and that's its own process. So please don't confuse people being reported as people being incarcerated.
John Dehlin [00:54:14] The wheels of justice have to turn before it ever reaches that point. So I think, in my opinion, this is a win, win, win. This is a win for churches, this is a win for religious people, this is a win for secular people. But most of all, this is a win for children, and this is a win for victims. And, and this is a win. And, and the only people that lose are, are perpetrators and maybe attorneys that want to make money off of all this stuff. I don't know. So, so those are, those are my thoughts. Any, any final, any final words from any of you before we wrap up? Lindsay, anything else you want to say?
Closing Encouragement and Call to Attend
Lindsey Lundholm [00:54:58] Yeah, I just want to say maybe for those who are concerned, you know, like, if I show up to this rally, will it be anti, you know, anti clergy? Will it be anti church? And I just want to maybe dispel that concern that like Representative Romero said, this is definitely not anti, you know, religious practice.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:55:26] This is just pro protecting children and really making your churches a safe place for everyone, which I think, you know, if your faith is important to you and you have a meaningful spiritual practice, then that should be a priority for you.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:55:41] And we want to support our clergy. We don't want them to be in this tough spot where their hands are tied. We know that many clergy members are great people with good hearts that want to serve their flock that want to help others that are volunteering their time.
Lindsey Lundholm [00:56:01] We want to support them. We don't want them to be in these spots and then live with the guilt later knowing that they, they, they didn't report abuse when they could have. And, you know, that hurt people. So we really are pro helping our clergy, pro making our churches safe, and pro protecting children.
John Dehlin [00:56:25] I love it. And if you look at, you know, there's this rising secularization of people in America, but particularly the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings, I can promise you that one of the things that's causing people to or disaffect from their religious tradition at the perception that their churches are not handling these sorts of issues well enough. And so, again, I just think everybody is going to win. All right, Lindsay, love that piece of feedback. Dr. Hanks, any final words before we wrap up?
Julie Hanks [00:57:00] I just want to express gratitude for Representative Romero and for Lindsey for kind of taking this charge and leading this charge and organizing the rally. I think this is so important. As a member of a faith community, as the wife of clergy and as a therapist, I'm so passionate about this issue. No adult should know about abuse and not report it. We all need to be mandated reporters. And I just thank you so much. Gratitude for leading the charge in this area.
John Dehlin [00:57:42] Beautiful. Well, thank you, Julie Hinks, for your voice as well. And I'll echo your thanks to both Lindsey and Representative Romero and to Meg and to the feminist book club that I think Megan Lindsey are both a part of. Representative Romero, I think we want to give you the final word if that's okay. Any, any final words you'd like to share before we sign off.
Angela Romero [00:58:01] I just look forward to people attending the rally and being there to support survivors. I, I think a lot of times, as we've mentioned throughout these conversations, people don't feel like they're believed. So I feel like the rally is also going to be a healing circle. I, I'm the co chair of the Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women Task Force and part of that task force and, and what myself and Senator Hinkins and the committee does is what we, we go meet with different tribal communities and we just listen. And so for us, like, we can't prevent what happened in the past, but we can listen to, let these families and these individuals heal and know that they're believed. And I think that's an important part of this rally as well.
John Dehlin [00:58:44] Beautiful. All right, thank you so much, Representative Romero. We can't thank you enough as Utahns for Your leadership. Also for your fellow co sponsor on the other side of the aisle, tell us his name one more time.
Angela Romero [00:58:59] Phil Lyman. Representative Lyman.
John Dehlin [00:59:01] Shout out to Phil Lyman for his support. Thanks Dr. Hanks. Thanks Lindsey. And all of you, just one final plea. If you can please show up on Friday again. It's 6:30 at the Utah State Capitol. August 19th. August 19th. Wear teal if you can. And let's have just this massive throng of supporters. But that's just one way to support. Please find out who your representatives are. Call them, phone them, email them, don't be mean to them, don't belittle them, don't tell them that they're dumb or what they have to do. Reason with them, show kindness, inform them, educate them, tell them and get and tell all.
John Dehlin [00:59:43] Most importantly, tell all your family and friends in the entire state, everyone you know. Have them do all the things that we've talked about today. And if enough people show passionate support, whether it's, you know, this time or next time, we are going to protect the children in the state and let's have Utah become a leader along with California and other states in the nation of protecting our children. How does that sound everybody? Yeah, got got thumbs up and applause.
Lindsey Lundholm [01:00:14] Amen.
John Dehlin [01:00:15] I'll also give a shout out to my friend Sam Young that's and all the Protect LDS Children movement who in the years past have worked so hard to try and make progress. And a shout out to my friend Natasha Helfer. We always appreciate Natasha's tireless work in in this area and in so many areas. Okay, thanks so much everyone. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to my staff, Jen, thanks to Maven for her help and you thank thanks to everyone who makes Mormon Stories possible. We appreciate the support. Be kind to each other, love each other. Report abuse in whatever states you live, whether or not you're a mandatory reporter. And we'll see you all again very soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join John as he interviews Utah Representative Angela Romero, Lindsey Lundholm, and Dr. Julie Hanks about the upcoming Protect Kids rally, in favor of requiring clergy to report abuse. ALL adults across the state, without exception, should be mandated to report child abuse. Representative Angela Romero has championed this legislation over the past two years. She is sponsoring the rally and will be the keynote speaker. Lindsey Lundholm is the grassroots organizer for the Protect Kids rally, and passionate about giving children one more safe line of defense against abuse. As a therapist and member of the LDS faith, Dr. Julie Hanks, stands in support of eliminating the clergy loophole.
Please join us at the south steps of the Utah State Capitol this Friday @ 6:30pm. WEAR TEAL in support of SA survivors.
More details here: https://fb.me/e/2G8FC1foR
For those unable to attend in person, the event will be streamed live. In case of inclement weather, the event will be held fully online via Facebook live at 6:30pm on Friday, August 19th.
Currently in Utah law, clergy are exempt from mandatory reporting of child abuse. Recent news stories have highlighted how this exception can lead to serious harm for children, and a grey area for clergy. Let’s make the law clear: protecting children from abuse is the first priority. We are rallying to educate and encourage the state to pass laws that close the clergy loophole. We believe this is the year we can get it passed, to provide a safer Utah for children.
How you can help in the meantime:
🔹 RSVP to the Facebook event, and invite your circle of influence: https://fb.me/e/2G8FC1foR
🔹 Follow, like, and share on Instagram @mandateclergyreporting
🔹 Sign this petition (40k+ signatures): Make LDS Clergy Mandatory Reporters: https://chng.it/6DvQJS5rLF
🔹 DM or email us at mandateclergyreporting@gmail.com to lend support, offer to volunteer, etc.
🔹 Share your story. If you would like to express how you or a loved one has been impacted by the clergy exemption, please follow this link for more details:
* Find your representative link: https://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1n4Ai…
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One Response
I loved this episode but would appreciate a title change as it was mentioned several times that it’s not targeting one specific religion but rather the root issue of needing all clergy to be mandatory reporters to protect children. Because of this, I don’t think the title is appropriate nor is it reflective of the episode or the rally. Thank you for taking and considering feedback.