Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 748

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Lead kindly light Amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark

Hyrum Joe [00:00:48] and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast Live. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 10, 2017, and we're really excited for today's interview. We are continuing our series, the series we're calling Losing the Lamanites. And basically what I'm really interested in hearing is hearing from various people who were told as they were growing up within the Mormon Church that they were Lamanites, meaning that they were descendants of Lehi or Laman or Lemuel, and that that's their identity, that's their heritage. There's all sorts of implications there. Because the Book of Mormon claims to be a historical book, because the Book of Mormon claims to be a history of the primary inhabitants of North, Central and South America. And we know the general authorities, for decades, maybe even more, have been telling Pacific Islanders that they are also descendants from the Book of Mormon. And of course, the problem is not only is there no evidence that the Book of Mormon is historical, but there's negative evidence pretty much any angle you look at the Book of Mormon, whether it's genetic, DNA, archaeological, linguistic, you know, any angle, the Book of Mormon fails pretty much every possible test in terms of historicity. And so it's one thing to be sort of believing in a belief system that strains credibility. And the idea behind this series is it's totally a different thing, or I'm wondering if it's a totally different thing to be told from a very young age what your identity is, who you are, who your ancestors are, and then at some point in your life to find out that that's not at all who you are. And so you've been given a false identity. And so we've already interviewed one person in this series, and she was from Brazil, and it was lovely to have her on. And today we're interviewing Hiram Joe. So without any further ado, I guess we do want to make just a few quick Announcements. As always, we're holding several workshops and retreats across the country and world. These workshops and retreats are to support people in their religious transition, whether they stay in or out of the church. We definitely at the Open Stories foundation want to help people figure out how to navigate those waters because marriages can be at stake. Sometimes lives are at stake, sometimes there's depression or anxiety, again, marital distress, etc. So we're holding these events. July 7th through 8th will be in Dallas, Texas. You can register for that right now. August 11th through 12th, we'll be doing a retreat in Salt Lake City, Utah County. It'll be a mixed faith marriage retreat with myself and Julie de Azevedo Hanks. She's an active, faithful member. And we think that if you're in a mixed faith marriage where one believes and one doesn't, it'll be very balanced and catered towards supporting you guys in your relationship. September 14th and 15th, we'll be in Seattle, Washington. And then October 20th, 22nd, we'll be in Sydney, Australia, and we would love to see you there. And then for the end of the year, November 9th through 10th, we're going to be in San Francisco, the Bay Area. So and next year we're thinking about putting together a cruise and we'll be announcing that soon. But if you want to register for these events, go to mormonstories.org events and you'll see the links to click on any of these events. In addition, Dan Witherspoon, for those of you who are trying to stay active in the church and are looking for support in that way, Dan Witherspoon and Natasha Helford Parker. July, July, sometime in July 2017. I don't have the exact dates with me. They will be holding a retreat, a two day retreat as well, and they do really good work. So we hope that you will be putting that on our events page soon. So anyway, please check out these events. They're very highly rated. People love it. They tell us that it's helped with their mental health, it's helped save marriages, it's helped them communicate with believing family and friends, et cetera. So we really hope you guys will join us really quickly. The dates for the retreat with Dan and Natasha. Oh my gosh, I still don't have it. So we will let you guys know. Okay. So we want to thank everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation to Mormon Stories Podcast. We just want to make sure everyone knows that if you love this program, if you believe in what we're doing, if it's helped you if you think it'll help others, we just always have to make a plea that you will Please consider donating $10 a month, $25 a month, whatever you can. All of it is tax deductible in the United States. And it goes towards the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is to support people going through or impacted by a religious transition. And we do great work. Amy Grubbs and Cody Layton are part of our staff, and please support us. All right, so without any further ado, let's go ahead and jump to the main purpose of today's call. We've got 63 people who've joined us already, people on Facebook Live. We really want your comments and questions. We're monitoring those comments and questions and we really want to see you participate. So please do. We've already got Hans Mattson joining us. We've got Kimberly Anderson, Rachel Peterson, Jayna Noreen joining us from the UK Brian says I'm getting skinny. Thanks, Brian. I appreciate that feedback. Don't objectify me. No, I'm just kidding. Chelsea, Watts, Gracie, lots of cool people. Danae, Graham. I want to welcome everyone who's joined us so far and those who are about to join us. Please do post comments and questions on your Facebook livestream. Okay. So, Hiram, Joe, it's a pleasure to have you on Mormon Stories. Thanks for joining us.

Hyrum Joe [00:07:31] Oh, yeah, I'm excited to be here, John. Thank you.

Growing Up Navajo and Mormon

John Dehlin [00:07:35] So I'm really, I'm really, I feel like this is kind of a special, this is a special topic and I'm sure it's very special to your heart as well. So let's just dive right in. Tell us about your background as a Mormon.

Hyrum Joe [00:07:53] I am a third generation member of the church. My patriarchal grandmother was the first to be baptized in our family. And then her husband, my grandfather followed and then my father and my mother, and then I'm the oldest of six children. And then, you know, we all fall in baptism growing up on the reservation as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Which reservation? Where is it?

Hyrum Joe [00:08:24] It's Mellow Reservation. It's the Four Corners area in New Mexico. Place called Shiprock, New Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] And the Four Corners, is that where four states come together?

Hyrum Joe [00:08:34] Yeah, yeah. Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Okay. Now, do you know anything about the missionaries that first tracked it out? Your grandparents?

Hyrum Joe [00:08:44] I mean, I've never met them. I don't know their names necessarily. My grandmother has all that information. But yeah, it was missionaries that came to the door and knocked and they didn't have a baptismal font at the Branch there. It was a branch back then. So they. They went to the. The next town, which was about 30 miles up the road, for their baptism off the reservation. But, yeah, like I said, everybody just followed, you know, after Grandma was baptized.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Now, this would have been, I'm guessing, in the, what, 60s, 59, 50s. Okay. And this would have been when the church was still really caring about the Native Americans, when the church was proselyting to the Native Americans. This would have been before Spencer B. Kimball was president of the church. But I'm sure that. I'm guessing that the Indian placement program was at least beginning or starting to pick up by the 60s or 70s. And I guess I'm saying this must have been a time when the. When Native Americans meant a lot more to the church than they do now. Is that your understanding?

Hyrum Joe [00:09:57] It's hard to say. I mean, I was born in 79, and I remember a lot about what Spencer W. Kimball said in the 80s. But, yeah, I would assume that the missionary work was pretty strong on the reservation at the time, during the late 50s.

What the Church Meant to Hyrum's Family

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Do you have a sense for what the church meant to your grandparents and parents? Did it help them? Was it an asset? Did it, you know, did it feel like cultural imperialism to them at the time? Did it feel like just a big help?

Hyrum Joe [00:10:32] Okay, so my grandmother, when I got baptized first, she's still a really, very, very devout Mormon, even to this day. She's. She's very sweet. She'll go up to the podium and bear her testimony every fast Sunday. She's pretty notorious for that on the reservation in her town. But as far as my grandfather has passed on since. But they actually, I didn't know this until just so lately that they were sealed in the Manti Temple. Manti, Utah Temple. But, yeah, she's really the only one that I would say is pretty devout. I have a younger sister who still still attends pretty regularly and just got sealed in the Monticello Utah Temple.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] But did you ever hear stories from your grandma about what the church meant to her growing up? Did it change her family's life? Did it give them hope? You know, what would have appealed. What about the church would have appealed to your grandparents?

Hyrum Joe [00:11:35] I don't know much about my grandfather as far as his testimony. I'm sure that he took a liking to it. I remember my father saying, you know, they had family home, evening scripture, studied pretty often. But, you know, like I said, my grandma, she, you know, she's. I think it really did help her strength. She's had a couple of Children who have passed on as well. She's endured a very, very, very hard reservation life, but still maintains, you know, like I said, her testimony. And I think that was the pillar for her. And I think she could say the same thing, too. And my whole family knows that about her.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] How many. Do you have an idea how many awards or stakes would be on the Navajo reservation?

Hyrum Joe [00:12:24] It's growing, but I think it's at a very low rate. At a lower rate, I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Is there at least one ward or multiple wards?

Hyrum Joe [00:12:36] Oh, yeah, yeah. I think there's more branches than anything.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:12:40] Kind of independent, you know, Several branches. Yeah, there's definitely branches here and there. So, like Chinle, Kayenta, Window Rock, you know, some of those places, they definitely have their branches there.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Okay. Did your. Did your. And these are your. These are your father's parents, right?

Hyrum Joe [00:13:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Did they. Did your father grow up on the reservation then?

Hyrum Joe [00:13:04] He did. My father comes from the Navajo and Southern Ute tribe, so he. He grew up in Shiprock, but he also grew up in Ignatio, Colorado, and that's where the Southern Utes are. So. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Okay. And did he. Was he raised lds too? I'm assuming he was.

Hyrum Joe [00:13:23] Oh, yeah, yeah, he. Yeah, for sure. Yep. His whole life.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Okay. And have you heard from him what that was like for him? Did he love it? Did he not love it?

Hyrum Joe [00:13:32] He shared a few stories. You know, like I said, you know, they had their family home evening, and, you know, my grandpa was wanting to make sure that that was taking place in the home Monday nights. I'm assuming that they were pretty active. They went to church every Sunday. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, typical orthodox Mormon family. On the reservation.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] On the reservation. Okay. And I guess this is maybe a delicate or sensitive thing, but, like, describe how reservation life might be different from middle class white America. If you're able to even. Is it way different? Is it similar?

Life on and off the Reservation

Hyrum Joe [00:14:16] Not sensitive at all? I mean, I can only tell you my experience. I moved off the reservation when I was 10.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:14:23] You know, we moved up to. Up the road about maybe 25 miles to a border town which wasn't on the reservation. I mean, you know, they have the same stuff. You know, they got the same stores. I think, you know, they're growing with more. More retail stores, department stores, things like that. You know, I like to go back when I get a chance. I mean, it's. It's. Gosh, you know, what can I say? I mean, it's A place that I go where I feel home. It's good to be around, you know, family, people of your skin color. I mean, you can automatically relate, you know, as opposed. If I'm, you know, I'm living about an hour north of Phoenix, and, you know, I go a place like Phoenix, and, you know, it's. I mean, it's just, you know, you see all kinds of different people there, but, you know, definitely toned down, smaller, more comfortable. It's very, very easy, you know, at your own pace, type of a lifestyle there. And. Yeah, pretty simple life there. I like it.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Charlotte Dosumu wrote my son. Is that your mom?

Hyrum Joe [00:15:25] Yeah. Yeah, I told her about it. She's tuned in.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] All right. So your mom's tuned in. Yeah. Gotta behave, Hiram.

Hyrum Joe [00:15:32] I know, I know. Yeah. I said a prayer before I went

John Dehlin [00:15:35] on Shout out to Charlotte. Okay, so why do you have a sense for why your family moved away from the reservation when you were 10?

Hyrum Joe [00:15:44] Yeah, not to get, you know, too detailed. It was kind of a. Kind of a big deal, kind of a mess with the Navajo kind of government. The red tape mess of the Navajo government. So my father's an artist like I am, and, you know, he had some early success. He had some good luck and fortune in his career. And I don't know if it was that, you know, we had grass, we had a nice fence. You know, we grew up in a trailer. But, you know, we had the cars, we had the trampoline. And, you know, the neighborhood kids would flock over to our place and, you know, want to come to our house and play. I mean, so you could kind of see a little bit, you know, hints there and there that, you know, my father was having success. So somebody representative of the tribal government came to my door, and they knocked and they wanted to ask, you know, kind of, you know, my dad questions about, you know, well, you know, where's this money coming from? And kind of just really nosy, a little bit, if you will. And they. They wanted to make things brief and to cut it kind of short. They were wanting some kind of stipend or maybe a percentage, you know, And I think they wanted to kind of tax him. Cause he had his studio right behind our trailer there. And it was a studio that he built. He pulled in this. Oh, man. What do you call it? Kind of like the tin storages. You know, it was a good size. And then he had, like, a shade house built outside, and he would work out there. So I think they just got curious and a little nosy.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] What kind of art, was it?

Hyrum Joe [00:17:26] He's a stone carver.

John Dehlin [00:17:27] A stone carver?

Hyrum Joe [00:17:29] Yeah. So he had saw blades going and, you know, white dust powder be flying everywhere. The neighbor's house would be white, but. Yeah, no. So I think that was kind of. That pushed him into the direction of, okay, well, if we don't. If we're off the reservation, you know, I probably wouldn't have this problem, and I could just, you know, do what I want. So we moved off, and sure enough, you know, we had a house built there, and he has a studio there and had no problem.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Since before moving to that part of your life, what was it like? Do you have any memories of what it was like to be a Mormon? You know, are there. Can you say there's Navajo beliefs or native beliefs? And was there any conflict between, you know, the Mormon beliefs, the Mormon practices, and the native beliefs on the reservation?

Hyrum Joe [00:18:20] I mean, at the time, you know, as a kid, you know, you're just so naive. You just don't know. You just, you know, go with what your parents say and your primary teachers and your church leaders. Unfortunately, I think the church leaders kind of frowned down upon, you know, the members that were Navajo or even just Native American. They frowned on, you know, them going to ceremonies or supporting, you know, kind of living their traditional lifestyle.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] So there would have been. There would have been ceremonies that would have occurred.

Hyrum Joe [00:18:55] Oh, yeah, But I mean, what types of.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] What types of ceremonies?

Hyrum Joe [00:18:59] Even today? I mean, you know, even just as simple as, like, a sweat lodge ceremony, you know, I mean, there's so many different ceremonies for different things.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Tell us what that is, just briefly. What's a sweat lodge ceremony?

Hyrum Joe [00:19:09] A sweat lodge ceremony is basically, it's held in a mud kind of a structure. It's a brown structure that. That was the traditional way of doing it. And it's completely dark inside. There's no lights, and it's very, very insulated so that the heat can stay inside. And in the middle of the sweat lodge, there's a little. There's a pit dug maybe about, I don't know, 3ft by 3ft. And the ash rocks are brought in. They're heated up for a couple hours before, so they're burning hot. And then they're brought in with the shovel. And I mean, you know, in the Navajo way, the sweat lodge is only for men. So it's a kind of a matriarch or a patriarchal thing. And so family members, friends, close friends will come in and we'll kind of, you know, the door is always facing east and we'll kind of just file in together and we'll circle around the entire hogan and we'll just sit on blankets or Pendleton blankets or just the ground. And the door will just have a flap, Pendleton blanket, sheepskin, buckskin, whatever. And they'll close off. You can't have any kind of opening. You can't see any sunlight. So we'll close it as much as we can. And they usually have a hatafli, that's medicine man in Navajo, or singer to kind of lead. I like to call them sessions. You know, should probably wide away from that because like, you know, growing up Mormon, you have tempo sessions, but yeah, there. So we'll sit in this sweat lodge and the medicine man will kind of make an introduction. And then everybody will get a chance to make an introduction who they are, what their clans are. And he'll sing songs of healing, he'll sing songs of animals, you know, things of nature. And if anybody. There's times that, you know, everybody who's in the sweat lodge, they'll have an opportunity to kind of express themselves with whatever, if they're struggling, if they're, you know, succeeding in something, if they want to share their happiness, anything with family, their career, and they get that opportunity. And there's more songs singing. And so we do kind of a four. I like to look at it as like a football game. There's four quarters, about 20, 20 minute intervals, and then there'll be a break. We'll come out, kind of cool off a little bit and then go back in. It'll last about two hours.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] And how often would those be held in a. In a given town, do you think?

Hyrum Joe [00:21:52] I know people that do them once a week.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] Okay. And so growing up, would your town do that with some regularity?

Hyrum Joe [00:22:01] Oh, yeah, yeah. They would be happening everywhere, all over the reservation.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] And you would be. And your Mormon church leaders would tell you to avoid them.

Hyrum Joe [00:22:08] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I knew that there were active members that were. That were participating in. So at last ceremonies and other ceremonies as well, but kind of behind the leaders back type of thing, they would be, you know, and then the issue would be, well, you can't worship two gods. You know, that that issue would be kind of inserted in there and it was just, I mean, you know, but there's.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] I'm guessing you don't have to profess to a certain set of beliefs to do a sweat lodge. To participate in a sweat lodge. It's. It can be. You could just go. To have it be a cultural community, personally spiritual Moment, Right?

Hyrum Joe [00:22:46] Yeah. I mean, you could do one with us, John, if you. If you wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] There's not like a Navajo temple recommend. You have to. To get to attend a sweat lodge where you.

Hyrum Joe [00:22:55] There's no worthiness interview.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] There's no worthy interview.

Hyrum Joe [00:22:58] Absolutely no.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Or creed that you have to attest to.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:02] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:03] Anybody's welcome.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] You have to pay. Do you have to pay money to be able to get in?

Hyrum Joe [00:23:07] No.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:08] Some people will come in and make a little offering, 10, 20 bucks at a time, but that's optional.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] Okay. Okay. So growing up, there would be. Were there other types of ceremonies that you were kind of discouraged from attending besides.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:23] Well, like I said, I didn't know a whole lot about the traditional life.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] Yeah, because you.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:28] You wouldn't. You wouldn't.

John Dehlin [00:23:29] Yeah.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:30] I was 8, 9, 10 years old.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. And so your. Your. Your brothers and sisters would get baptized. Was that a problem at all?

Hyrum Joe [00:23:39] My younger brothers and sisters got baptized.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Yeah. That was no problem on the reservation.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:44] Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Everybody's baptized.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Okay, so you guys move off the reservation. Where did you move to exactly?

Hyrum Joe [00:23:51] We moved to a place called Kirtland, New Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] That's funny.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Was it. Was it named after Mormons or.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:58] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Oh, so a bunch of Mormons.

Hyrum Joe [00:24:01] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] And is that where you grew up through high school, then?

Hyrum Joe [00:24:05] Yeah, we see we moved in 1990, and I believe I was a fourth grader when we moved there.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] So what was that like? Was there some culture shock?

Hyrum Joe [00:24:14] Definitely. Big time. At the time, I would say, you know, the population of the town was probably. Oh, man, I want to say at least 65% Anglo, and then the rest would be either Navajo or Hispanic and definitely miss my friends. You know, I had to get used to paved sidewalks, street lights, you know, grassy parks. It was nice to have that. We didn't have that on reservation. It was all just dirt. Dirt roads and, you know, tumbleweeds. But, yeah. You know, went to school and, you know, struggled a little to make friends. I had my friends from the reservation come up, and they would have sleep. We have sleepovers and play video games, and so I didn't want to let go of that. It was definitely hard for me. I think my other brothers and sisters struggle with that as well. I couldn't say too much for my parents. But the interesting thing, John, about that was, you know, we actually, as a family, we actually got accepted really well because my father got called into the state presidency.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] Whoa.

Hyrum Joe [00:25:21] He. He was. He was 27 years old. 27, 28, I want to say, right up in that area he was called before we moved. So he thought it would be easier to. Because he used to have to drive the 25 miles or whatever to, you know. You know, his stake priesthood meetings, which were held, you know, pretty often throughout the week. And then he was gone all Sunday, of course. And I would just add in that or throw in there that that was probably another reason why we moved to Kirtland. The stake center was probably about three miles from our house.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] So you moved within the same. Within the same stake?

Hyrum Joe [00:25:57] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] Okay. Was there. Okay. This is a weird question that popped in my mind. Could the Anglos, as you call them, tell the difference between, you know, Hispanic kids, Mexican kids, and Native American kids, or do they treat you all like brown kids? You know what I mean?

Hyrum Joe [00:26:15] I mean, I don't think at that time, as fourth, fifth graders, I don't know that that was something that they felt like it was important to distinguish. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Maybe. I think the Hispanic kids spoke more fluently their native language, and maybe that was one way they could tell, as opposed to Navajo kids speaking their native language.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Would your English have had. Would it have had an accent? Did you.

Hyrum Joe [00:26:44] I probably did. Like I said, this is back in 1990, so it's kind of hard to answer that.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] But did you grow up speaking Navajo in your family?

Hyrum Joe [00:26:53] Not a whole lot. If we heard any Navajo, it was just coming from grandparents. So it was mostly English when they came.

John Dehlin [00:27:00] So it was English. Okay. Okay. So I guess I'm getting at. Was there. Did you encounter a lot of racism either out of the church or in the church, or did you feel racially like you were pretty much the same as everybody else?

Hyrum Joe [00:27:16] I definitely felt like an outcast, like an outsider. I mean, there's a lot I can tell you about this particular topic. I mean, when we first moved to Kirtland, you know, showing up to, you know, primary. I mean, it was just me and my siblings that were the only brown kids in class. I mean, at the time, I don't remember really any other Navajo families, at least active in our award. Of course, my dad was this, you know, the second counselor in the state presidency. So we had that expectation. And, you know, we had to go every Sunday, and we had to be supportive of dad and have that kind of image, you know. But, you know, like I said, that's not to say that we had really strong testimonies, and we knew that that's where we needed to be, that type of thing. But, yeah, you know, I mean, I definitely had some run ins with some anglo kids in the area. I think I did get in a couple of fistfights younger. We had a kid, he was my age, and I don't. I couldn't remember how it started, but we kind of tossed some words back and forth, and he was. He was in our award, and he. I remember we got into a verbal argument at school, and one of the things he came back to me was, you know, well, at least I'm not made out of poop, you know, those type of things. So, yeah, I mean, we got one incident. Incident out of probably 20. I mean, so we would have those growing up for sure. Definitely felt not included so much. But, John, as I got older, I want to say high school, I did buddy up with a couple of angle kids that were, you know, we kind of, I guess, went off the. What do they call it, the straight and narrow a little bit and started doing something, you know, aging houses. You know, I started cussing a little bit more, you know, things like that. And, you know, they were with me, too. So it seems like the kids that were kind of going off the path a little bit, they were the ones that I got along with, you know, as opposed to the. To the kids that were, you know, teachers, quorum presidents or, you know, deacons, corn presidents, things like that. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, I. It was hard. It was hard. You know, I go to school and, you know, I think the Navajo kids there are now kids from the reservation. It was five miles away. The nearest part of reservation was five miles away from where we were at. And they started to kind of come over into kirtland bit by bit, more and more, Start seeing more Navajos now. It's probably, I want to say, 85% Navajo, right. You know, and then. And then, you know, 50%, whatever. But. So I really only dated white girls, White mormon girls, you know, because I would see them at church, I would see them at mutual on Wednesday nights. You know, we took tip on trips together. I just knew them better. I didn't know the Navajo girls. If I knew Navajo girls, I was probably related to them, that type of thing. But. But, yeah, and so I think, you know, I also had Navajo boys that. That wanted to fight me. So I got in fistfights in high school Because I think because of that, I think they thought that I was maybe, you know, kind of, you know, somebody who was ashamed of his race or culture or something. Like that.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] And because your friends were, your friends were Anglos and you did a lot

Hyrum Joe [00:30:55] of Anglo friends, had a lot of Anglo friends, a lot of Mexican friends. I had a few native friends. But, but mostly, you know, it was because of church. You know, we're taught to, you know, hang around Mormon friends and, you know, date Mormon girls. And that was kind of the, you know, the council in church.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Right. Let's talk about the Lamanite narrative. Would that have been a part of your family lore, a part of your upbringing, a part of how your family identified and thought about themselves? Talk about that.

The Lamanite Narrative and Racial Identity

Hyrum Joe [00:31:30] Yeah. Dad would come home and we'd have him home evening and he would teach things that were taught to him in his stake priesthood meetings, things in high council meetings. And so the, you know, the teaching was not just from dad, but other leaders as well, was, well, you know, why are we brown? And it was, well, it was because of what Laman and Lemuel did in the Book of Mormon. We learned that they were disobedient, that they were, you know, rebellious men, and that they, they went against, you know, their Father Lehi's word. And, you know, when the person came down, you know, God, you know, gave them a mark or curse of skin, of blackness. You know, I think in Second Nephi is where it teaches that. And that's, you know, that's why we're, we're brown. But it's okay, you know, we're okay now because we have the gospel and we can just kind of move on and, you know, prosper and be successful in the gospel. And so that's what my understanding was for all these years.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] And did you wear that with pride? Was it like, I'm a Lamanite? You know, that's awesome. We're special or.

Hyrum Joe [00:32:48] No, no, it was hard. It was, it was definitely hard.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] What was hard about it?

Hyrum Joe [00:32:54] I mean, you know, I didn't, I didn't want to ever think that I was. I mean, what did I do? I mean, if that was true about Lamanue Lemuel, I mean, that's, that's their, that's their deal, you know, have them take it up with God. I mean, you know, how many, how many generations did I come afterwards? I didn't, I didn't want to, you know, take the beating for somebody else's mess ups, you know, screw ups. I just didn't think that that was right. But I mean, I went inactive in high school, though. You know, I didn't, I just, I think the main reason was I just didn't feel accepted there. But I was bored too. You know, I just. I didn't know any of the historical, you know, problems. I didn't know any of this stuff. I just had another friend who was Anglo and he was bored too, and he had a truck and he said, let's go to Subway. Let's go to. Well, I don't even know if Subway's there and I don't know if it's there, but we. Dairy Queen was definitely there. So I think we'd go get a chicken strip basket or something like that. And then he dropped me off at home, that type of thing. You know, I already be home when my parents got home and you know, there were things like that. But yeah, it was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Do you remember liking or disliking the color of your skin at the, you know, growing up, wishing it were different, loving it, being proud of it.

Hyrum Joe [00:34:14] I think it was. It was definitely hard probably in mid

John Dehlin [00:34:17] school,

Hyrum Joe [00:34:20] so it was definitely harder at church. I didn't know that. I just didn't feel like I fit in. I wouldn't say that I was ashamed of it. I just didn't feel it was hard to fit in with Mormonism as a, you know, as a whole, in its entirety.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Was there ever an issue about you as a Native American dating white girls? Did the parents ever have a problem with that? Did ward leaders ever say, hey, we don't mix? Because I know Spencer B. Kimball loved Native Americans, but taught that there should not be the mixing of the races. Did any of that rhetoric appear in your childhood at all?

Hyrum Joe [00:35:02] Nobody's come to my face and told me I don't think there was a huge problem. But I'm not saying that things were. Weren't saying behind closed doors type of thing. The girls that I dated, I mean, of course they were just kind of whims. They were just, you know, a quick, you know, I don't know, a couple weeks or whatever. And then. And then we broke up or whatever. But yeah, I've never heard anything from anybody. Nobody said anything. But I know that, that, that was taught by the leaders. The idea of dating within your, your own race. And so that, that kind of put me, I guess, at a confused state because, you know, we're taught to date within our own religion. And so here I am, this Navajo kid, okay, I'm dating within my own religion. But you know, we were also saying to date within your own race. And there's, there's no Navajos that are, that are members. So that was kind of my, my situation.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Okay, so you never got in trouble, so to speak, for dating?

Hyrum Joe [00:36:07] No, nobody's called me out on it. Absolutely. And I, you know, my parents were the type of people that didn't, you know, discourage us from making friends or dating outside of, you know, our Navajo culture or race. Parents were pretty open minded. People make friends with everybody.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Got it. Okay, so you went inactive. What brought you back?

Hyrum Joe [00:36:39] I graduated high school and I left to Phoenix. I did a couple years of school there and then I moved back to pursue my art career. And I had a buddy in high

John Dehlin [00:36:52] school

Hyrum Joe [00:36:54] who knocked on my door one evening. He was dressed in his white shirt and tie. Really, really good buddy of mine. He wasn't a member though. That was the funny thing. He wasn't a member until just probably several months before he came to my door that night. He had some scriptures in his hand and you know, so of course, I mean, I didn't know what was going on. I let him in and, you know, we sat and visited, caught up. I hadn't seen him in probably a year. But he said that he just got back from a meeting at the state at the singles branch. I said singles branch? Well, what do you mean? Are you Mormon? So he invited me to church the following Sunday and we went to church. And it was definitely a weird experience. But it, you know, the songs, the hymns, the prayers, all that started to kind of come back to me. And you know, I'll just be honest, there was a. There was a girl there that was kind of pretty and I think I came back the next week specifically for that. And we had started dating and she took me to institute and we kind of just fell back into the church together. And that was my ex wife.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Okay, so kind of a cute girl, kind of snatched you a little bit.

Hyrum Joe [00:38:25] A little bit, yeah. Yeah, my friend. And then, and then the girl.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:38:30] Kind of work together, I guess.

Mission, Marriage, and Temple Exclusion

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Okay, so you hadn't served a mission by this point?

Hyrum Joe [00:38:36] No mission. Thought about it, but yeah, decided.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] So you never served a mission?

Hyrum Joe [00:38:41] No mission.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] Okay, so you kind of fell in love with this girl and you guys got married?

Hyrum Joe [00:38:47] Yeah, we got married civilly in the traditional Navajo way. And then a year later we were given the opportunity to go to the temple. So a year later we did go to the Albuquerque temple.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Okay, okay, so you guys were sealed and so any interesting things happen regarding, you know, the church? Did you become more active? Did you become more believing and did you study it more and talk about anything you want to that leads up to kind of Your just say crisis of faith.

Hyrum Joe [00:39:30] Okay. All right. I got to put up my little outline here just so I don't miss anything. So, yeah, immediately I think we started going to church together. And, you know, we were engaged in everything, and we were just. We still attended the singles branch. And I mean, it was all right, you know, it's just typical single people, you know, wanting to meet people to date. But, you know, we were set. We were okay. We sat by each other, you know, and our bishop there was. Was encouraging and was working with us to go to the. Help us go to the temple. And. And he actually was okay, surprisingly, that we were gonna get an Navajo style wedding, that we were gonna have one, and he didn't. He didn't have a problem with that. So that. That was. That was a big thumbs up. So, I mean, yeah, so we got married and, you know, we just started attending the family ward. And I wore earrings at the time. I had little hoop earrings. I was kind of a little punk back then. Had tattoos, have a couple tattoos. And I don't think I wore the white shirt and tie in the beginning, but I. Eventually I grew into feeling more comfortable at church. And. But with that came, you know, well, I think I better probably dress the part and, you know, otherwise I'm a little too outcast. Ish. So I lost the earrings, covered up the tattoos, and eventually I got a calling in the elders quorum as a kind of a missionary coordinator guy. So I went out with the missionaries a lot. They would come by the house, you know, we'd feed them. And I'll tell you what, I don't. I never had a testimony in the church, John. Up until this point, I don't feel like I ever had. But as I started going out with the missionaries, I would say probably at least three times a week. I was kind of the driver guy, because at the time, they didn't have a vehicle. Some of them had bikes. So I would drive them to their appointments and just kind of, you know, support them and sit there. And I didn't know a whole lot about the gospel, but I was learning. But I would kind of sit in the corner of these houses delivering one of these homes, and just hear the missionaries speak with truth and power, conviction. And they would teach about the Book of Mormon. They teach about the Lamanites and the Nephites and how Christ came to America and how the book was written to the Lamanites and Native American people. And this is for our day, you know, and it's easier to understand than the Bible. And that was the way they taught. And we got missionaries from all over the place. We had a couple from, I think, Argentina. In fact, the first missionary that I got closest was from Argentina. So we had a lot in common. You know, he was darker skinned and whatnot. But, you know, church basketball was another thing that kind of brought me in. You know, I went on Wednesdays, love playing, playing ball. So, you know, but yeah, I mean, I think mostly just came from the missionaries. They got close with them, they'd come over, we'd feed them. My ex wife would prepare meals and we just talked about the gospel. You know, questions would come and what about this and what about that? And, you know, I got fired up. I was fired up. I wanted to. I wanted to. I wanted to make a difference in other people's lives. I wanted to be able to raise my family, you know, that way. But at this time, like I said, I was, I was kind of. I didn't, I didn't involve myself in my Navajo tradition. You know, the gospel took over. And I would say probably, well, a year later, we went to the Albuquerque temple. And now that I look back on, wasn't the experience, I was told it was going to be very, very uncomfortable in a lot of areas there.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] You didn't like the temple ceremony?

Hyrum Joe [00:43:29] No, no, I didn't like getting undressed and then praying and then having everything be white, you know, the clothes, the walls, you know, and being the only brown person there again, you know, gosh, how many times I have to go through this? And now my wife, My wife. My ex wife was Navajo as well. So, you know, so we both kind of grew up in that, you know, had similar experiences. But we, you know, we got into the. We got our endowments taken out the same day we got sealed. So we had it all in one day. But, you know, it's interesting that now that I think about. Think about it and think back on it, you know, we had family members that had been sealed, you know, friends, you know, our friends in the ward or bishop, hey, brother Joe, you know, I want you to know that this is the best decision you're going to make in your life and you won't regret it. But I want to warn you, the adversary is watching you and he's aware of what you're trying to do. And don't be surprised if your car breaks down on the way to the temple or if your bank account freezes or, you know, your wife and you getting some. Some kind of argument, you know, or these Thoughts come. These doubts come into your head, you know, don't be surprised, you know, that's ever started working on you. And sure enough, for some reason, I think something happened to the bank account. We just. We couldn't get money out for the trip or something, and we got discouraged, and I think my ex wife was crying, something like that. And we called, you know, our parents. We don't know if we can make it. But eventually we figured it out, and we got to the temple, and we got still that day. It was supposed to feel beautiful and uplifting, and I was supposed to cry, have tears of joy, but I didn't do that. I felt like my Navajo traditional wedding was a lot more special and only because family and friends that drove in were able to come and see us get married as opposed to the temple. There was my dad and my grandmother. That was the only family that I had. And then her parents as well.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] So your mom wasn't able to attend, but.

Hyrum Joe [00:45:48] Yeah, my mom. My mom wasn't attending church at the time. She. She's kind of grown into Catholicism to this day.

John Dehlin [00:45:59] Got it. Okay. So the temple experience wasn't what you thought a little bit disappointing and. But you were faithful in it to win it, right?

Hyrum Joe [00:46:11] Yeah. I mean, you know, we don't understand everything, right, John? Things don't make sense. Things are mysterious. God will reveal these things that don't make sense to us, that are uncomfortable, that we don't understand. He'll reveal to the faithful. So I was patient. I heeded the counsel of the brethren, and I just had faith and went forward.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] All right. Okay. So anything else that was interesting? You mentioned in your notes, An Elders Quorum president and developing concerns with racism. Do you want to talk about that?

Serving as Elders Quorum President

Hyrum Joe [00:46:46] Yeah. So we'll just. I'll just kind of leave off on where we started attending our award as newlyweds. So, you know, that was award in Farmington, New Mexico. It was. It's a town just 10 miles from where I grew up in Kirtland. So we were right there. We were pretty close to family. Great word even till this day. In fact, I reconnected with somebody that we knew through Mormon stories. Facebook community. I thought that was interesting. I was just young. I was whippersnapper. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. But, you know, nonetheless, the bishop was great. The Elders Quorum president was great. The missionaries were always awesome. And that's where I got my testimony, was serving in that. In that. In that ward, like I said, served a lot with the Missionaries. And so, you know, we took the opportunity to move and we moved. We found a home we were renting at the time, and we wanted to own our own house, so we bought a house in Kirtland. We go back to my hometown, and I'm dreading it. I'm dreading it. Oh, man. You know, I know what people are gonna say. I know how they're gonna react. You know, there's Hiram Joe, the guy, you know, who threw the parties. The guy that, you know, corrupted my son. I just. I didn't know how they would. The people there, the Mormons there would receive me coming to church. Now Mary got his life together with a suit and tie, boots, you know, testimony and everything. So we. So we go back. And I don't remember the first calling that I got, but eventually I would say with, well, no, I got calling to the Elders Corn presidency. That's right. As a second counselor. And that was. That was okay. I mean, I was new to it, and, you know, the president had been serving for, I think, almost three years, and I think it was his time. And he was released, and I was immediately called in to be the Ellis corn president. At 27 years old, scared as hell. Yeah. And this was almost my home ward. It was another ward. It was second ward. I grew up in third ward.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] So what was that like, and how did it go?

Hyrum Joe [00:49:20] It was challenging. It was confusing. There was no instruction. The bishop at the time, you know, he wasn't really specific on what my job was. I was hoping he would kind of help me out. So I just winged it. I just winged it. And so, you know, the first thing that I thought would be a good thing was to rally up all the. Round up all the Inactive Corps members and just pay him a visit. And that's exactly what I did. You know, I called some counselors, and, you know, we went from door to door. We introduced ourselves, let them know who we were, invited them to church, that type of thing. Activities. I held a couple of elders quorum activities, and immediately I got on my PPI interviews. I figured it was a good way to kind of get to know some of the brethren in the ward and immediately started making friends. You know, I think we're doing okay. You know, home teaching assignments were made, but I think I took it upon myself to. Assigned myself eight families to see everybody else had about two or three families, and my counselors helped me out with that. But I just. I specifically assigned myself the Navajo families that were inactive. I wanted to know what was going on I wanted to know where they were at, why they weren't going to church, not in a demeaning way or, you know, wanted to chastise them or anything like that. I just wanted to know because I wanted people like me. I wanted them at church, too. So I would go and visit these families, and it was really interesting. They all had different things to say. Some of them were offended by other people in the ward. Some just didn't believe anymore. And I had one family, the husband. We got into some doctrine, some scripture. And he said this to me. He said, you know, he said, I think I have more in common with the Mongolian people, Mongolia, than I do with Jews or people of Hebrew descent. And I didn't know what to say to that, John.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] I didn't.

Hyrum Joe [00:51:46] Like I said, I didn't know the history. And I always remember that today he. He never came to church. I tried, but I wouldn't know about the whole, you know, immigration. You know, the Asian immigration, and then having them come into the United States through the Bering Strait until probably, I don't know, five, six years ago.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] So that comment didn't. You didn't fully understand what he meant by that? You just were struck that somebody would say they didn't feel like they.

Hyrum Joe [00:52:16] Not really. Not really. I didn't. I didn't know the Mongolian people at all. I mean, I hadn't known none of their history or customs or what they even look like. Okay, Talking about.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Okay, so as your testimony is growing and as you're serving as Elders Quorum president, how does that affect your relationship with your family or what's happening with your family?

Hyrum Joe [00:52:39] We're okay. You know, my art career is growing. My testimony is growing. Marriage is good. You know, kids are young. I think by this time, we have at least two. We have two little ones. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] How about your. How about your. Your dad, your mom, your siblings?

Hyrum Joe [00:52:59] Well, my father, his. His testimony is slowly deteriorating. He just. He just found that he identified more with his Navajo culture. It's funny. We have almost the exact same story, John. So he. You know, he got. He got released. I think I was a junior in high school when he got released, or maybe I was a senior, something like that. And, you know, my parents did divorce. You know, so they went through that. And my father, I think he just. He was lost for a long time. You know, he went through a faith crisis, and he just didn't know where to go. Excuse me. So he. He had, you know, long story short, he. Gosh, I wish he would have came on with me, John. He would have been great. He had somebody come to his studio, his workshop one day out of the blue. And this man was. It was a Navajo medicine man. Just threw his arm around my dad and just said, hey, we were just passing through, I thought. I stopped by, and he's a friend of my dad's. And he said, listen, I heard about what you're going through, and I'm sorry, but I just want to tell you that I love you and what can I do to help you? And so they had that conversation. My dad just wept. My dad just wept. And so he went through a faith crisis and a divorce at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] That's got to be hard after having served in the stake presidency. For how long?

Hyrum Joe [00:54:48] He was there for nine years.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] That's a long time.

Hyrum Joe [00:54:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. People. People still come and tell me, hey, I remember your dad when he used to talk in state conference. I never. I never. I never forget what he used to tell us. He used to speak with power and precision and authority. So he still has respect of a lot of people from that. But that was kind of the circumstance when the medicine man had come by. That was kind of the turning point for him. And this medicine man had invited him out to a ceremony, a Navajo ceremony, a healing ceremony out on the reservation. It was the first time, I think he went to one in a long time. Like I said, his time was. Was put into the church priesthood meeting, serving, getting his family ready for the celestial kingdom. But, you know, he told me that story, and it's. Oh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, man. So he did try to go into church. I remember him trying to go to the temple. He would, you know, we'd be in Mesa, Arizona. He's dropped me off the temple, hire him and do a session, you know, so he tried. He tried to stick it in there or stick in there, and, you know, it just didn't work for him. And, you know, he tried to go into priesthood meeting. And his. His response was, you know, I just. I can't get over the brethren. They're talking about politics. They're talking about who's going to be the next mayor in Farmington, who, you know, you know, George Bush is doing such a horrible job. You know, Barack Obama is doing such a horrible job. And that was their priesthood lesson. And then, you know, okay, well, we'd like to. Like to close, you know, who wants to offer the prayer? And that was their lesson. And he was getting nothing out of that. He was absolutely getting nothing out of that. And so he just stopped going.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Did you get a sense for whether he was starting to doubt the church's truth claims or its history or anything like that?

Hyrum Joe [00:56:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] And did he talk to you about any of that while he was struggling?

Hyrum Joe [00:56:51] Yes, yes. His thing was, you know, he said, Hiram, that, you know, the Anglo is the stake president and you know, the bishops, you know, they're predominantly Anglo in that town, at least when I was there and we were having these conversations. And he would say, you know, their time is up, their time is up. It's time for the Lamanites to take over. It's time for the Native Americans, you know, to fulfill the promise that Jacob had made in the Book of Mormon about, you know, blossoming as a rose. I mean, I haven't seen it. Have you? And, you know, he would, he would mention how the, how the Anglo people were the Gentiles and that they were adoptees. You know, they were just adoptees. They're not, they're not the real authentic, you know, chosen people. And that was. He's still, he's still on that right now. I think that's kind of how he, that's his mindset still right now. But no, we actually, we had some run ins together. My mindset was, no, dad, you need to go to church no matter. Have faith. I mean, you taught me everything I know about the gospel. We have fan home evening. What about your testimony about Joseph Smith, you know, your testimony about the Book of Mormon? And you know, there, there was a time, I think we didn't even speak for three weeks because, you know, like I said, my mindset was, you know, find the lost sheep, pick a family member out and, you know, invite them to church, you know, have a discussion with them. And he didn't want to hear it, John. He didn't want to hear it. But he also had bishops come by, stake president come by, and these are his good friends, you know, people he taught. And that was a really difficult thing for him. So he kind of went through a phase and that was part of his faith practices. But yeah, it just really led to an estranged relationship. But it wasn't only with him. It was probably with my siblings, too. My siblings didn't attend church as much. I don't think

Father's Disaffection and Family Struggles

John Dehlin [00:59:02] so. So it sounds like with your dad it was a combination of, you know, losing his calling, probably the shame of divorce. Being single in the church is super hard. Then he wasn't seeing the progress with the Lamanites that I think he, the scriptures probably led him to expect and it sounds like he was just kind of bored and felt like church was irrelevant. Is that.

Hyrum Joe [00:59:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was probably the first stages in his disaffection towards the church.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Okay. Anything else worth noting?

Hyrum Joe [00:59:35] Oh, man. Yeah, no. So we just, you know, I knew something was wrong. I didn't want to have that kind of relationship with my dad. So I did call him up and I apologized and I just, I never, I never bothered. Bothered him again. I never said anything about the church. I just, I just let him be and. Yeah, so that was, that was kind of my experience as Ellis Corn president. You know what I loved about it, John, though, was it helped me get out of my shell and serve people. I mean, I mean, I remember my secretary, you know, he was. I didn't know he was going through a divorce and he finally, he finally told me and I went over to his house and I was just there with him. You know, I hugged him, I wanted to weep with him. I was just there for him, you know, I drove home. Elder, who was inactive, who gave me a call out of blue, was probably about 11:30 at night and he had a little too much to drink at a bar. So I told my ex wife, I got up, I got changed and drove over to where he was at and drove him home. You know, there was things like that that I just, I just, I love doing that. Those are memories that will always be kept and I'll savor those. But the, but that calling, specific calling of Oscar president helped me to serve. It really got me out of my comfort zone and, and just made me realize how special people are. But yeah, so I got released and served. Got called into the bishopric as the ward executive secretary, so they call it. And that's. I served with the bishop then that we had discussed earlier when he got ahold of me several months earlier, that was the bishop that I served with.

Questions About Race in the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [01:01:24] Okay, so it seems like at some point you started to develop questions about race in the Book of Mormon was that during this time it was pretty.

Hyrum Joe [01:01:37] Well, it was. No. I always knew something wasn't right with me being the only Native American at church and then have everybody else be Anglo. I knew something was wrong with that. Especially when the Book of Mormon teaches and prophesies that this is for, this is for the Native American people. If it was for us, then we'd all be here. But I just couldn't wrap my finger around it. And then of course, I always had questions about, you know, how come the blacks, the black people never got the priesthood until 1978. Why is that? I always thought that was a really, really interesting, you know, part of Mormon history. You know, I had, so I did question the Bishop. I think I talked to stake President at least once about that. But mostly I just, you know, discussed it with my ex wife and we just, you know, the conclusion was well, we don't know, it was the Lord. You know, Lord works in different timing. He doesn't work on our timing and it was just our time to have it. And I was never satisfied, I was never satisfied with that answer. I knew there was something else, you know, under the rug there that either they, you know, either the leaders just didn't know or they were hiding. But there was a, there was a specific elders corps meeting. We had, there was a, there was a young, there was a young man in our quorum. He was, he just turned 18, so he's brand new to the quorum, straight out of the young men. And we were, that, that year we were going to be teaching or learning out of Spencer W. Kimball's the teaching of the, of the prophets or presidents, something like that. So I had, I had the teacher, the teacher of our quorum, you know, discuss a little bit about who Spencer Wynnie was, some, you know, kind of his timeline. And you know, he came across the 1978, you know, opening of the priesthood to the blacks. And out of the blue this young 18 year old kid, as naive as he was, his hand just shot up just like that in the back of the class and his question was, why didn't the blacks have the priesthood back then? He asked the teacher that and the teacher pretty much gave the same answer and he just kind of nodded his head and said, okay, well do you think it was because the leaders were racist or the prophet was racist? I didn't know whether to laugh or to smile or what, but deep down in my mind I was thinking, yeah, this kid knows exactly what's going on as young as he is. And I wanted to say, yeah, it was because he was racist. The leaders at the time were racist. But, but I didn't, I couldn't, I couldn't lead the brother astray. The brother in astray in quorum. And I don't remember what the teacher, teacher's response to that was, but we just kind of moved on. So you know, like I said, we just, you know, I didn't, we didn't really go online. There was really no resources for that particular issue. We just asked, we just asked the priesthood leaders and that's all we Got. But that was kind of the first step in going into that. So anyway, so I did ask my bishop once. I stayed after a priesthood meeting and I pulled up the scriptures where the Lamanite cursings were, and he had me. So there was a scripture that said, read the white pure and delight zone, I think is what it was. I can't remember where that's at. So he had me. I said. I said, bishop, I don't know how I can teach my kids this. This sounds very. Sounds very racist. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, Brother Joe, it's your misunderstanding. It's. It's. No, that's not. You know, we can't take things so, so literally. So he had me take out my pen and mark out the word wider and put purer. Wider represents purity. That's what that means. So, you know, of course, the obedience. Priesthood holder that I am, I had to go with that. I had to go with that. I couldn't fight it anymore. Otherwise that's going into apostasy.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] Did that work for you to just kind of mark out the scriptures and fill in your own word?

Hyrum Joe [01:06:12] I mean, I mean, since when can he change scriptures? That was just his interpretation. So that. Yeah, that didn't work. Didn't work for my ex wife. And it was just. It was just. It was just as it is. So we left it and just didn't think about it. And of course, you know, the Holy Ghost tells me to focus on taking my. My wife to the temple. Let's just go to church. Let's just serve in our callings. Let's pay our tithing, let's fast, let's go to the ward activities. Let's do the member missionary work. Come on, Brother Joe, just have faith. It's no big deal. That's very. It's a very insignificant thing. It's not even relevant to have a testimony. That's not what's gonna get you back to the special kingdom of God again. Come on. Right, that's where I stood.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] So as I read through kind of the outline, one of the things you mentioned was being introduced to Mormon Stories podcast. Is there anything else you want to talk about before you talk about kind of when things really started falling apart?

Hyrum Joe [01:07:20] You know, at the time, I, you know, like I said, I was doing everything that I could in my power to, you know, remain a worthy priesthood holder. You know, I was, you know, I had my flaws, I had my mistakes. But, you know, we were active and, you know, like I said, we were reading scriptures and just doing everything Possibly that we could do to, you know, to endure to the end and, you know, make it to the celestial kingdom. So we, at the time in Kirtland, there was a. There was a racial division. Excuse me, I call it a racial community division. So what had happened was. And I was serving as Ellis Corn president at the time as well. We. Let's see. We. We had a. Let's see. The high school, the schools there shared. They were in the same district as a couple of other schools on the reservation. And those schools were probably within, you know, 30, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. So they all share. They were all in the same district. So there were certain members of the school board that were Mormon, Anglo, Mormons that wanted to split the district. So Kirtland. They wanted Kirtland to be independent and have, you know, the reservation schools take care of their cell. So that would lead to the Navajo students that were going to school in Kirtland to kind of go back to the reservation, in essence. You know, if you live in Kirtland, then that's it. If you're on the reservation, you know, we don't have room, we don't have the finances, whatever. We want you to kind of go back. And that really just kind of tore the town up there for about a year. That was a really difficult thing to go. To go through. And so my younger children were taking bilingual classes at their elementary school. And, you know, their teacher was just. Just the most sweetest, energetic, thoughtful, considerate Navajo woman she could ever, ever meet. And she taught. She taught their bilingual class. They. They wanted to fire her. They wanted to get rid of any bilingual class out there or in the town of Kirtland, because they just didn't. They stated that it wasn't in the budget to pay for the class, to pay for the teacher, and to give her a salary. And this was my children's kids. This was their teacher that they're trying to get rid of. And that hurt. That hurt because my kids would come home singing their Navajo songs. They were picking up words. They were hearing the creation stories, the ceremonial stories, and it was just awesome to have our kids, you know, that young. And we did our part to teach them at home as much as we could as well. But that was just a beautiful thing to have, and they wanted to. They wanted to wipe that out. So this created a lot of division in the town. And you go to church, oh, man, all the brown people being back and the white people being the front. We lost friendships. People just stopped talking to us. So we Kind of had a buddy up with other Navajo families and kind of discussed the issue. And there was petitions going around. There was even, you know, somebody said that somebody pulled a gun on somebody. It was in the newspapers. It was all over Facebook. There was Facebook wars, people bashing. So essentially it was the Navajos versus the Anglo Mormons. And that was very difficult and off awkward to be part of because we were both. So I literally felt like I was a tug of war, rope being pulled, you know, both sides. Did we choose our Mormon friends, that the truest church, you know, the people that are part of that community, or do we choose our blood Navajo family? Like, I mean, that's. That's the tough thing to go through. So, you know, we decided then that we would move. And I think after about a year later, I think we made the move to Arizona. And so now we're near Prescott, Arizona. So I'll just. That was a little tidbit.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] It must have been weird to have members of the church pushing for segregation, pushing to send the Native Americans back to the reservation to deintegrate the schools. That must have been discouraging.

Hyrum Joe [01:12:04] Yeah. I mean, now that I look back on it, John, I'm not surprised. I'm not. It doesn't surprise me a bit. Back then, I was. Yeah, I was in shock. Why are you doing this? I mean, it's. It's fine. I mean, you know, we all can benefit by. By coming together and having, you know, two cultures or three cultures or four cultures blend. And, I mean, that was. That was how I grew up. That's what I believe in. But. Yeah, but that's.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] That. It seems like that was the philosophy behind the Lamanite placement program. You want to eliminate the language, eliminate the culture, and the whole goal to make the Lamanites turn white and delight some and to blossom like a rose was to become American, to become Westernized, to speak English and to turn their skin white and become educated. Like. Like the gringos, right?

Hyrum Joe [01:12:55] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, to cut. To cut their hair, cut the braids off, you know, that wasn't typical, you know, I guess approved, you know, Mormon appearance. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it was almost the same exact thing. No leader's gonna come out and say that, but. Yeah, I mean, you know, the kids that went on the placement program, I have. My mother almost went. She married my dad. My dad talked right of it and married instead. But I've got really good friends who have gone on the placement program. Some say, yeah, it helped them a little bit. Some say it was horrible. You know, the ones that didn't have a good experience, they were, you know, same thing. They were outcasts, you know, in the family home. One particular really good friend of mine said he always got blamed for everything. If there was a mess, if somebody, you know, left the faucet go in, if, you know, something was a chore wasn't done around the house, he got the blame for it. He always got the shaft end of things and, you know, those type of things. But, you know, I think it really goes both ways. Everybody has a different story. Some say it was a good experience, some say it wasn't. Some have completely just gone inactive. Some, you know, I have a really good. Another really good friend who's Navajo, who went on the placement program. That's high councilman in North Dakota right now. So, yeah, it's hard to tell.

The Indian Placement Program and Cultural Imperialism

John Dehlin [01:14:24] So that. That worked for him, but for others, it didn't work so well. But. Yeah, but I guess the larger point is kind of cultural imperialism, right, of the white man wiping out the inferior languages and cultures. Is that. Is that kind of what you feel like was going on in Kirtland?

Hyrum Joe [01:14:43] Yeah, yeah. I'll just say that I felt like I was robbed of my identity because we, you know, like I said before, the leaders just didn't frown down upon, you know, as in the Book of Mormon said, you know, the Lamanites who follow into the tradition of their fathers, you know, they'll never make the progress or they'll never get to know God or, you know, not in those exact words. But that's the council in the Book of Mormon is to not follow in the tradition of our fathers. And so, yeah, so you go to church. I mean, everybody's in a white shirt and tie. You know, it's like the way you speak, the way you talk, you gotta. You got to kind of act like them. You got to kind of act like the white priesthood leader that has a white shirt and tie with this Book of Mormon in his hand, and he's sitting up straight and tall, and he's with his family. And, you know, there's just this beautiful, you know, image of what a celestial Mormon family looks like. With the Navajos, you're just. You're just not going to get that. Maybe some might get away with it, but I know that I struggled with. I mean, just even playing basketball on Wednesday nights was a struggle for me because, you know, they'd kind of circle in their own little groups and cliques and, you know, I just. I just couldn't identify with them. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't be myself and joke in an Navajo way, you know, with them as opposed to being at a family reunion or, you know, being at a birthday party with my own, my own family and my own blood, my own skin color, you know, cracking jokes and laughing and just having a good time and feeling comfortable. You just couldn't do that. You couldn't do that at church. But yeah, I mean, I mean if you wanted to be accepted, if you wanted that testimony, if you wanted the blessings, I mean you certainly had to, you had to act a part. You had to act a part.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] Well, thanks for joining us today on More. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Hyrum Joe [01:17:18] Anger or malice

John Dehlin [01:17:24] I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 749

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light a myth encircling gloom

Hyrum Joe [00:00:43] Lead thou me on the night is

John Dehlin [00:00:48] dark and I am far from home. Okay, so you guys moved to Arizona, is that right?

Faith Crisis and Discovering Mormon Stories

Hyrum Joe [00:00:56] Yeah, yeah, we moved in 2011 before Christmas. You know, I contacted the bishop, I found the. That's how bad I was. You know, I was excited to be in a new ward, contacted the bishop, let him know, you know, what house we chose and our address and all that. And I had just asked for a little bit of help. Maybe the Elders Quorum could come over and, you know, give us a hand with unloading. They never sent anybody. We just, I think we had one family and I think my father helped out. Another native Mormon family helped us out. They drove all the way down here. So we moved in with church. And at no surprise, John, the race is size again. So now it's even worse because we're the only Native Americans again. I think there was a half Native American guy that was married to a white lady and one other black guy in the ward. I don't even think there was any Hispanics in our ward back then. Now there is. And so we, there's only room at the back of the back of the chapel or sacrament meeting. It ends, you know, and you know, we stand up and you know, just kind of looking around like, oh, okay, we're, you know, isn't the Bishop supposed to come up and, you know, shoot straight from the stand and, you know, shake our hand and welcome us and hug us? The Elders Quorum president came up to me, shook my hand, introduced himself, was very nice and said, oh, hey, I'm glad to see you're here. You know, how's the family? How are the kids doing? Oh, you know, they're good. Little tired, you know, acting up a little bit. You probably heard us. We were a little loud in the back, I think. And he said, he kind of chuckled to himself. And this is what he said. It might not seem that bad, but this is what he said. Exact words, ahahaha. Well, that's probably the Lamanite blood in them, you know, and then he laughs again.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] Oh, my goodness.

Hyrum Joe [00:03:07] You know, and it's just one of those things that it's not a big deal to him, but I know what he's saying, know what he's saying. And I just kind of. He shook my head again, said, well, hey, we'll look forward to seeing you in class. And I just kind of looked at him and just said, just go away, douchebag. I mean, you have no idea what you're talking about. So anyhow, yeah, so, you know, of course we're believing, though. We're TPNs or True Believe in Mormons. So, you know, war life goes on. We get invited to activities, and I almost immediately get called into the young man's. Luckily enough, the young man's president there in that ward. His job consisted of driving up into the reservation. He went up and visited Kayenta, Tuba City, you know, those areas, Flagstaff area. And he come up to me, just say, ya. She kissed, meaning, you know, hello, my friend. I said, whoa, who are you? But, yeah, we ended up becoming really, really, really, really, really, really good friends. And we still continue that friendship today. And he's just so. So, you know, interested in, you know, the culture. You know, he said that he had eaten fried bread, he tried mutton sandwiches before. And, you know, this is a white guy out of Phoenix, you know, know nothing about Mormonism. That's how I grew up. But we just. We just connected, you know, on a really high intellectual level, became really good friends, and he knew some Navajo words. But yeah, he was the young man's president and I was his first counselor. And that went okay. That went okay for a while and. But kind of going into Mormon stories, being introduced to that for the first time, I would say that was probably about six months after we had moved here. And you know, everybody in my family, my ex wife, my kids, they had all bought ipods and I was the only one didn't have an ipod. I thought, I'm gonna go get an ipod. And I was up, you know, after the kids had gone to bed, my wife was just kind of doing some stuff around the house. And so I hooked up my ipod to my computer and downloaded some songs. Just really having a good time. I thought, okay, well, I wonder if General conference is on here. I wonder if they're on itunes. So I went on and I typed it in, and sure enough, plethora of general conference talks had showed up. And I thought, oh, man, that's wonderful. Like, I was in A candy store. I was that committed. I love the church that much. I love to hear the prophets and general authorities speak. I downloaded a few talks and I wanted to know how far it went back, how far in conference, you know, itunes went back. I found some stuff in 1993, I went even further and I thought, you know, I wonder if they have anything on Spencer W. Kimball. You know, this was a prophet that knew. He was. He knew what he was doing, he knew what he was talking about. He loved the Navajo people, especially the Navajo people. It's my favorite property, my favorite prophet. So sure enough, about 10 items showed up on itunes. I downloaded one of them. And then on the very bottom, the last item said, blacks in the priesthood. Mormon stories. And I thought, okay, well, it's not. I don't know if this is church approved church curriculum or material, but I gotta know that, you know, this issue still bothering me, you know, I have to know more. So I went and downloaded it and I felt a little guilty, you know, I don't know for sure. So the next day I work out of my home. So I tuned in the next day and sure enough, I was right. My intuitions were right on why the blacks were held from having the priesthood. I think that podcast was with Darius Gray and Margaret Young, if I'm not mistaken.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Yeah, yeah, that was. That was one of the first and a super important one. How long ago would this. Would this have been that you fell on these interviews? How many years ago?

Hyrum Joe [00:07:30] This 2012? It's probably the summer of 2012, about five years ago.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Okay.

Hyrum Joe [00:07:36] Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been. Been a devoted fan ever since. So, yeah, you know, it sort of goes on at this point. I don't know if I want to share with my wife just because, you know, like I said, it's not Mormon, official Mormon published material. But I give it a listen. I thought, man, this makes so much sense. And what helped me, though was the fact that you were an active member. Darius Gray was. Margaret Young was. They had mentioned that they had callings. I thought, you know, this is okay. This has got to be all right. But the crack for me was when I found out about Brigham Young's misinterpretation of the scriptures in Genesis, about the cursing of Cain and Ham, that whole story. And I thought, you know what? Nowhere in the scripture does it say blacks are literal descendants of Cain. There's no way. There's no. There's no connection there. And I said, well, why would they ban a group of, you know, people that you Know, where the Bible doesn't even. Don't even state that. And, you know, that kind of juggled my mind for a little bit. And of course, you know, I still went to church, John. I still was a priesthood holder. I still went to the temple, but that was the first crack. And, you know, in my mind, that was when it hit me. And I thought, you know, what if a prophet's wrong? There's no way. There's no way that that was. That was of God. There was no way that God would curse a group of people or, you know, say that they were fence sitters and, you know, they were loyal before they were even. Or not loyal or unfaithful before they were even born. And that same rhetoric plays into, you know, the Book of Mormon about the Lamanites and Native Americans. And so I'm trying to get this all figured out in my head. You know, I'm talking with my ex wife about it. You know, I think we go and see the Sikh president again. We're talking to bishops, and this is when all the hard questions come out. And I'm serious about this, because this is a matter of, you know, in my mind at that moment, I'm like, okay, I don't know if the prophet doesn't speak true words, if he's leading people astray and he's putting out false prophecies. I don't know that I can do that. I don't know that I can follow a prophet that essentially is racist. So he was the first prophet that I had beef with. And so that was my first crack. And my ex wife wasn't a fan of that necessarily. She listened to that podcast, the first one, she thought it was interesting. And she had the same issues that I had. So we both went to the Sikh president and bishops and asked about those. And again, John, it was the same stuff. I started to wonder if there was this sheet of paper passed around to all the bishops and stake presidents and leaders in the church. This is what you say to the members when they question about blacks in the priesthood. That's what I thought it was because it was all the same. It was in the Lord's timing, Brother Joe, the Lord only, you know, answers or reveals things that are mysterious to the faithful. You know, we gotta stay faithful, stay loyal to the end. I'm like, what else could I do? I mean, I'm going to church, I'm going to the temple. I'm not getting anything. So anyway, yeah, that's. That's the first time that I Had to say, you know what? I don't. I don't think he was a problem. He was a true prophet. And that started to make me think about, you know, Gordon Bu Hinckley and then Thomas S. Monson. And I just. I just didn't know anymore at this point, John. I just didn't know anymore. But the council is. You got to read the Book of Mormon. You got, you got. I already thought I had the burning in my bosom. I already had that. If it's true once, it's always got to be true. That was in my mind. So that kind of led up to more podcasts I listened to. Oh, gosh, I wanted to listen to all the ones that were of Lamanites and, you know, lack of DNA and then banning of the priesthood with blacks. Those are the ones that I. That got to me. And the more and more I listened, Darren Smith was another one that I absolutely love. He did a good job with that. You both did a good job with that. Then Dustin Jones.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Yeah, he's from Arizona.

Hyrum Joe [00:12:12] I became friends with him on Facebook and we had little discussions here and there. He had some really, really good insight. But, man, I loved his podcast. And I thought, man, that's exactly how I feel, you know. And so, yeah, I was able to relate to those podcasts. And then it went on to, you know, Joseph Smith's polygamy. I can't remember, you know, who you interviewed for some of those. A lot of Richard Bushman stuff was good. Let's see, gosh, you know, what else? Book of Abraham stuff, you know, polyandry stuff. Back to Joseph Smith. Again, what else were trying to think what else was. Oh, and then the gay and lesbian podcast started to come out. I started listening to a lot of those, and that really affected me big, too. The November policy back in 2015, that was a big hit for me because I have a younger brother who's, you know, full out gay. And he attended church for a while and, you know, but he mentioned to me, you know, just not be being gay, but also being Native American. He felt like he was getting hit twice. And so he became inactive. As much as he loves the Mormon people, you know, he. That was kind of experience. And I just felt, you know, that, that that's just. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I told him once that I was, you know, I was sorry for him and having to go through that and give him a hug. But yeah, I just thought, you know what, as far, you know, as far as the gay and Lesbian people. I just. I really feel like the church is. Just went so wrong on how to handle that situation. But I feel like, you know, for those who are bisexual that aren't given giving those privileges in the church, if they're wanting to get married or sealed, if they're wanting priesthood, if they want callings, those type of things, I mean, I really do think it was the same issue as blacks in the priesthood. Brigham Young saying, you know, the blacks wouldn't get the priesthood until after the millennium, but they get it in 1978, 22 earlier, 22 years earlier than what he had prophesied. I really do think that time is going to come for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. And that's just my personal opinion. But, yeah, so, yeah, I love my brother. He's no different than anybody else out there. So, yeah, John, the podcast started, you know, they. I mean, gosh, I'm probably say that I listened to close to 150 podcasts from now till then, and if somebody

John Dehlin [00:15:03] said, oh, my gosh, you. You shouldn't have listened to podcasts, that's where you went wrong. You. You listen to evil podcasts, and so you lost your faith, what would your response be?

Hyrum Joe [00:15:15] I would just. I would probably send them a link and say, hey, you know what, you probably need to see for yourself and then tell me what you think about it. I have, actually. I have actually. And I didn't get a response from those. Those people.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] No, but I mean, is it. Is it the podcast fault? Or what would you say?

Hyrum Joe [00:15:32] Oh, oh, if my disaffection toward the church and falling out is the Mormon stories is responsible. Yeah, yeah, 70%.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] So it's my fault.

Hyrum Joe [00:15:45] It's not your fault. It's the fact that you took it upon yourself and took the courage to question, to research yourself, to really pray about things and have enough courtesy and love for other people who are going through the same thing to have a chance to express themselves. Because if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't know truth. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have come back to my true identity as a Native American. And I don't know that I would know of the lies and the things that were swept under the rug, the manipulation tactics that a lot of the leaders put on the members. Yeah. If it wasn't for you. So, yeah, I blame you. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] All right. But you're not mad at me?

Hyrum Joe [00:16:46] No. Nope. Nope. I like you.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Okay. So how did things evolve once, you know, kind of once you lost Your faith. How did things evolve from there?

Marriage Strain and Changing Beliefs

Hyrum Joe [00:17:00] Yeah, so I think my ex wife was kind of growing a little weary because I was listening to your podcast a lot, so she was a little worried. There was a, There was one podcast, another Blacks in the Priesthood issue that I listened to. And I think it was right around when the essay, the Church essays came out on lds.org and, and that's, that's when I heard about them. So I went online to look for myself and I read some of them and I got this crazy idea about printing those. Well, I printed a couple of essays out, but the Blacks in the Priesthood one and then the Lamanite DNA, I can't remember the specific titles of those. My ex wife and I printed those out and we took them to our ward one Sunday. We laminated them. Actually. No, we didn't laminate. I'm sorry. We stapled them together and then we put them on the ward bulletin and that. Which was right by the bishop's office. So we did that and we gave a copy of the Blacks in the Priesthood because they were, they were teaching in the Book of Abraham. And I was sitting back in the classroom like, no, no, that's not what it is. It's right here. It's in this essay. So we gave him a copy of that Blacks in the Priesthood essay. And I don't know if he ever read it. He took it. I don't know if he ever read it. We were scared. We were so scared of what was going to happen. We don't want anybody to know it was us. My ex wife literally went around the corner to see if anybody else is coming and then motion to me to say, hey, nobody's coming. You know, hurry, staple it up there. So I'll put it up there, that type of thing. But we went, we came back the next week and we noticed that it had been taken down and it was probably read a couple of times, but nothing came of that. I mean, you know, I don't. They eventually took it down, I think after three weeks or something like that. So that, you know, so I started to grow more into this. I was getting more involved with Mormon stories and, you know, was just so fascinated by it. I was almost addicted to it. And, you know, so some other things happened with the marriage. It was just. It was just failing. It wasn't working out. So, you know, we got a divorce. I think this is probably what split a huge, much more huge crack in my testimony. I was just distraught. I was curled up in a ball on my Living room floor, going through this faith crisis and this divorce at the same time. And I just thought, well, what would my bishop tell me? What kind of counsel would he give me? And immediately the first thing was go to the temple. So I get dressed and grab my temple recommend and shoot out the door and drive straight to the Gilbert, Arizona, temple. I'm praying. I'm listening to church hymns on the way down there and just trying to figure out what the hell is going on with my life. I'm a mess beyond depression. Probably shouldn't have even been driving. I get down to the temple, and the Gilbert Temple is pretty new, I think at this. I can't remember the exact year it was built, but it's pretty new. So I'm excited to go park in the parking lot, say a quick prayer, go inside, you know, do the. Go through the normal procedure, get changed, go into the first room. I can't remember if they call the first room the last room, I think, or I don't remember. Anyway, I'm sitting there reading scriptures, the Book of Mormon, just trying to invite God, just trying to, you know, feel his presence, you know, feel that spirit of love and, you know, companionship. And then we get called into the other room, we watch the movie, and, you know, I'm just like, I can't do this. You know, everybody else is smiling, you know, looking over, looking at their wives. You know, they're waving little eye winks, and, you know, I'm by myself. My wife wants to leave me. Yeah, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do. This is horrible. And, gosh, so I'm enduring it, though, you know, it's getting more and more painful for me at the time. So it's time to go through the veil. All right? You knock and, you know, you say that, you know, to give the handshakes and all that. And I, you know, I just. I couldn't finish, John. I didn't finish that procedure. And I. You know, I just. I look to. I kind of peeked through the little hole that they put their hands through, and I just say, hey, listen, I'm a mess right now. I can't do this. I gotta go. So we didn't even finish that whole procedure. And I just let myself through the thing, and he moved out of the way. And I looked up in the celestial room and saw everybody, of course, in there was holding each other and holding hands and praying together. And, yeah, I go straight to the. To the men's room and change and walk out and look back right before I open my car door, and I just said, I am never coming back. This was the worst thing that I could have done. So I drive off and I think I called my mom after that and told her what had happened. And that was the last time I went to the temple. So that was, you know, probably about this time three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] That's a. That's a really an emotional kind of scene. You're. It sounds like you're almost suicidal and you're going to the temple to try and get answers, and you don't get them, and then you end up leaving before you even finish. That sounds like a really dark day.

Hyrum Joe [00:22:32] Yeah. Worst day up until that point of my life. You bet you should, for sure. So, you know, if. So my mind at that point is, you know, if the temple is not where I need to be, you know, what's the whole point of the church? And at this point, John, you know, I would say probably about. Well, actually, you know what? I have to go back a little bit. I actually stopped listening to Mormon stories for a while. I couldn't do it. I couldn't, you know, have that angst towards the church and then try to deal with my divorce. At the same time, I actually thought, you know, if I. If I can just readjust my thinking, put Mormon stories away and just go to church and just, you know, turn

Separation, Disciplinary Council, and Disfellowship

John Dehlin [00:23:15] it off, as they say. Turn it off. Right.

Hyrum Joe [00:23:18] Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to do. And so I met with my bishop. You know, I was trying to get help, and, you know, I just. I didn't get any, you know, anybody reaching out the Alderscorn president. I mean, I'm not trying to be a hypocrite or say that I'm better than thou, but as Alderscorn president, you know, when I got the phone calls, when I heard something, John, I was there. You know, you have to help people out, especially when you're not calling. But I got nothing from the eldersborne president. I had to go tell the bishop. And the thing about it was that, you know, the bishop didn't contact the stake president about anything. I mean, this is. What's the worst thing that can happen to an LDS family who was sealed in the temple? What's the absolute worst thing, other than apostasy, to have that marriage breakup, to have that ceiling be broken. I had nobody reach out. I had to reach out on my own. The young men's president, my friend, and another guy in the ward were really the only two guys that I was able to butter up with and had to talk to. But I mean, you know, 95% of my people that I know are Mormon or friend, you know, on Facebook, other than my family, my family is in Phoenix and in New Mexico. And I hear, I am alone trying to cope with all this stuff and just no, nobody reached out. I literally messaged the elders for president on Facebook. We weren't friends and said, hey man, I really need somebody to talk to. I'm going through this stuff and would you just give me a call with my phone number? Never heard from them once. Didn't hear from, you know, the missionaries. Nobody, nobody came by, nobody called. And there was a point where I just said, you know what, screw this, I'm gonna go meet up, reach out to my, to my non member friends. So I called a college buddy of mine and I said, hey man, because he was going through divorce too. I called him up and I said, hey man, it's happening to me too. We spoke for an hour, almost an hour, and I thought, oh my gosh, this is it. He's telling me exactly what I want to hear and what I need to hear. And this isn't coming from a bishop, this isn't coming from a stake president. And this guy just understood, he understood everything. And another non member friend came around, another non member friend came around and I just started to distance myself by default from the Mormon church and gosh. And that I think that's kind of when I started exploring other, other Christian churches and beliefs and religion. Not necessarily going and getting baptized, but you know, just reading up on it and talking to other friends about, about it and you know, as I look back on it, you know, so, so those of you who don't know I'm an artist and I travel and I have stuff in galleries. One of my collectors that I'm very close with, they're not Mormons, but they're Christians, you know, and you know, we, when we get a chance, we'll go out to eat, have dinner. We've stayed at their home. They're very, you know, they got a lot of money. But you know, as we've gone out to have dinner with this couple, you know, they always ask me, you know, they offer me and my ex wife if we, if we want a margarita, if we want a beer, if we wanted a glass of wine, you know, aren't you gonna get anything to drink? No, no, no, no, we're okay. We'll just have Sprite. Well, why won't you just have A drink? You know, we're celebrating. We just bought a painting from you.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] No.

Hyrum Joe [00:26:54] Is it because you're Mormon? Yeah. No. Tell me about your special garments, your underwear. So we'd have little cute discussions like that. But, you know, as I look on people like that, you know, I mean, they're sitting there drinking their beer, having their wine, just successful, crazy in life. And I'm thinking, you know what? This couple is still married. Like, I grow up learning all this stuff about Mormonism in the church, being told that my skin is a curse at one time because of what some two guys in the Book of Mormon did. But I'm okay now and then, you know, I'm expected to be this worthy priesthood holder and I'll get all these blessings. And if I go to the temple, I'm guaranteed, I'm almost guaranteed celestial life with my family. And, you know, I mean, it's a guarantee, John. It is. They tell you, well, no, it's not guaranteed. Well, what's the point, right? And so here I am on this pedestal at one point in my life, elders corn, president, sealed in the temple, you know, getting these supposed blessings and being a leader among my people, you know, being an ammonia among my people, right? And now I'm divorced and my wife left. And, you know, I have this experience at the temple, and I started thinking, you know, there you don't have to be a Mormon or these children in the temple to be. To have a good marriage. And this couple, that they're collectors of mine, is a prime example. I mean, he can have a beer, joke around with company with his wife, then he can show up to work. He's a family physician and a LASIK eye surgeon and do his duty, do his job, be successful, come home on the weekends, travel, have another glass of wine, you know, say the S word, F word. He can say ass and just joke around and just be himself. And look at his marriage. What happened to me, I tried to avoid. I avoided all that stuff. I didn't cuss, John. I didn't watch rated R movies, you know, and I just look at it, I'm like. I'm thinking, my goodness. So that was. That was probably another crack of my testimony right there. It's just the judgment of other people at that time when I was a. When I was a tbm. But anyway, I'm probably going off track.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] No, no, that's. No, that's actually, that's really important. It's very common that discovering that you can have a healthy, happy, strong family, healthy marriage outside of the church that you can just be a really good person and not even believe in God necessarily. That can really cause. That's a very common thing to cause people to lose their faith in Mormonism. And, you know, this came out with Vanya in our interview just last a couple days ago. She was suicidal as a Mormon, and it wasn't until she was praying to God, letting God know, I'm gonna kill myself. So when I see you in heaven, I don't want you to give me a hard time about it, because that's the way it's gonna be. The inspiration her came leave the church. And as soon as she stopped believing and left the church, her suicidality went away. All the perfectionism, all the shame, all the guilt.

Hyrum Joe [00:30:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] And she actually found joy and healing through leaving. And the church was actually toxic for her. And it sounds like it was toxic for you.

Hyrum Joe [00:30:23] Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, definitely. The game, the shame and guilt and just the expectation to just sit up straight and tall, look straight, like military style, almost. Yeah. I mean, it feels nice to move out of that. But, you know, I had to hang on, though. I, you know, I had one foot in, one foot out. I just. Because I didn't know, I would say about. Gosh, a year ago, I was still hanging on about a year ago, going into the fall last year, that's when I started to approach my bishop and stake president with the really, really tough issues. I started, you know, asking them about the November policy against gays and lesbian transgender. I started asking about, you know, more skin color stuff. And, you know, I literally asked my bishop, why. Why is. You tell me from your. From your personal, non scriptural, non manual, non profit, you know, whatever. You tell me why my skin is brown and your skin is white. And he just said, brother Joe, as much as I want to, I. I can't answer that because I could possibly lose my position as a bishop in the ward.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Well, how would he lose his position?

Hyrum Joe [00:31:45] There's a certain. I think there's a certain amount of things that they're allowed to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Oh, if he had admitted that it was racism, I don't know if he would.

Hyrum Joe [00:31:54] I don't know, John. I would think that deep down inside they know that. But I. I mean, that's just something that they're not going to. They're never going to say that, you know, because it don't affect him. It don't affect my state president. They don't have family who, you know, is bisexual. They, you know, they're not. They don't have Native American blood or, you know, African American blood. They just don't. They don't affect them in that way. And that's the best. You know, but like I said, it's just. It's something that, you know, I, at least. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt and give them an opportunity to. I at least wanted to make sure that I went to my bishop first and went to, you know, the proper authority in the church to discuss these things before I just left. But that. That eventually led to disciplinary counsel.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Why?

Hyrum Joe [00:32:53] Well, I started seeing a girl who is now my wife, and she got pregnant, and I talked with my bishop about it, and he passed that on to my stake president. And I didn't hear from for a while, but they called me in. Well, my state president gave me a call and said, you know, we gotta have it. We gotta hold the council for you. And it's gonna be a stake council. It's gonna be at that level for. Oh, gosh, what was the wording? It was. It was essentially apostasy because of all. Because of you, as your podcast, all the things I was bringing up. And then. And then the, you know, the premarital sex.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] So it literally, the letter said for apostasy and for breaking the law of chastity.

Hyrum Joe [00:33:54] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Okay. And, you know, your apostasy, again, you're bringing up the race stuff. What else are you bringing up to them? What are the issues that you were concerned about?

Hyrum Joe [00:34:09] Oh, the other one was just Joseph Smith, you know, issues. I told him that I couldn't be believe in a. I didn't believe that there was a need for a restoration. You know, I just told him that, you know, God or, you know, Jesus came down and, you know, taught the gospel and he had apostles to help him do it. And once it was here, it's already here with. And then I also share with him my Native American beliefs. There's a particular ceremony, it's called a nightway ceremony, where a medicine man will actually place his hands upon a patient's head inside the hogan. And I showed him a picture of that. And I said, well, what does this look like to you? He says, well, it looks like a priest's blessing. And I said, well, guess what? This particular ceremony has been going on since well before 1000 BC. I said, long, long before Joseph Smith even came here. And I said, I feel like there was no need for a priesthood restoration. Everything God intended for us to have was already here. And I just. I can't believe In a prophet who is going to go and marry other women behind his wife's back and marry underage, you know, women, you know, that that whole saga and of course they, they defended it the best they could and, but I just, you know, that, that to me was just already enough to, you know, lead me to believe that, you know, he was a fraud and he's just another guy that, you know, wants to make up a religion but, you know, was successful and you know, accumulating a lot of followers. So that was, that was my conclusion on that. That was a tough one for me though, you know, sustaining a profit and all that. It took me a while, but yeah, that, that and just the racial concerns and issues, those are probably the biggest two that has led me out.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Okay, so did you attend your disciplinary council?

Hyrum Joe [00:36:06] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] What was that like? What was that like?

Hyrum Joe [00:36:10] It was pretty interesting. My bishop, the same bishop that I have had all these discussions with him, we've texted, we've had tons of meetings, we met outside church, man, I'm just going to say this guy is the closest to being the most open minded bishop that I've ever met. I mean this guy is he. I had a feel he didn't want me to have a dismantling council. He didn't think I needed to go through that. But he actually said that I could be a witness for you, as funny as that sounds.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Your bishop.

Hyrum Joe [00:36:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Your bishop offered to be your witness.

Hyrum Joe [00:36:48] My own ward bishop. This guy knows everything that I'm going through. He offered to be that and I said yeah. So we went in and we sat down. Man, it was intimidating. But I knew the way I saw it was I could probably teach, I could probably teach these guys more than they can teach me.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] That sounds prideful. What do you mean by that in

Hyrum Joe [00:37:14] Mormon stories is to credit that. Well, they don't know that Joseph Smith married 14 year old Danny Alger. They don't know about Brigham Young's quotes about black people. They don't know that he said that they wouldn't get to priesthood until blacks wouldn't get to priesthood until after the millennium. They didn't know that Native Americans, that our heritage and bloodlines trace back to Asia and specifically probably Siberia, Mongolia and Tibetan. They don't know my story. They haven't been where I have been. They don't know what it's like to be single and to try to be celibate, you know, after your wife leaves you. They didn't know, you know, they just weren't me. They didn't know what it felt like to be told that your skin is a curse. They didn't know that. And they were all white. They were all white guys. And I said, you know what? This is an opportunity for me to teach them. Not because I know all this stuff came from me. I mean, I had to research these things. And like I said, Mormon stories is a big. Was a big help in that. And I just wanted to share what I learned from you and doing research on my own and looking up the history and digging up what was scribbling on the carpet for all these years and present it to them. And the fact that it was an anti Mormon literature that I was looking at. Oh, and then bring up the. They didn't know about the LDS topic essays. They didn't know about that. So that was another thing that I wanted to bring up. So it was kind of intimidating. You know, I just. I wore a T shirt, nice jeans, and some boots to kind of make a statement. My bishop was sitting right next to me, and they just. They let me have it. They let me have. I think they let me have an hour and 15 minutes, and they just. They let me talk. And the thing. So the procedure was, you know, they couldn't say anything within that time frame. They let me speak, and I was really thankful for that. So I shared everything and how I felt about the church. And I wasn't necessarily wanting to defend my position as being excommunicated or the possibility of excommunicated. If I was excommunicated, that would have been fine, but it was more of a, you know what? I could probably share some things that they've never heard, and I think I did that. So. And then. So when I was finished, my bishop stood up and he was great. He says, you know, I've known Hiram to. To be, you know, honest. He's been very open about things. He doesn't hold anything back. But, you know, if you look at the situation, you know, he's got his kids, he's raising his kids almost on his own. He's just. He's just going from day to day, working, sleeping, taking his kids to school, make sure they do the homework. He's, you know, he's trying to, you know, figure out where he's. Where spirituality is. But, you know, we can't really blame the guy. So that was kind of where his stance was. Then he sat down. They had us leave. Both of us leave. We sat out the foyer and just visited for maybe 10 minutes. And then the sick president Got me. Pulled me into his office, and he just said, hyrum, I really thought you were gonna be a little bit more faithful. I really thought that you wouldn't tell about the things that we had discussed in private. And I was just thinking, well, I mean, you know, what's the point of having a council? So he just said, you know, the brethren and I have prayed about it. We talked about it, we discussed it, and the result of this disciplinary council was you are disfellowshipped. And then he just kind of read me the guidelines on, you know, not being able to pray, bear my testimony. I can still come to church, participate, but not have a calling. Can't go to the temple of those things. And I said, you know, president, I'm fine with all that stuff. So he had me sign a document, and we left. And about a week later, he and the bishop came by to personally deliver a letter. It was one of those letters that says, I'm disciplined, but I. Or disfellowshipped. But then immediately, you know, they want to talk about how, you know, what you have to do to come back to the church or to repent or whatever. You know, it was like two paragraphs long. And, you know, so we were here in my home, and the sick president just kind of. He looked over at me and he said, hiram, I want you to know that we love you. We want the best for you, but we just don't want you to lose the blessings, and we don't want you to be with a group of people that it's going to burn in flames when the Savior comes, but we love you. I just thought, man, I've never been told that I. That I am love. But, you know, I'm also threatened in the same sentence by anybody. So I thought that was. That was interesting, right?

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Yeah. So you're disfellowshipped, and. But you got to speak your truth. Did it feel good to be able to speak your truth at your disciplinary council?

Hyrum Joe [00:42:32] Yeah, that was just one closer step to having closure, you know? And I went to church a few times after that and saw some of the men that were in that council, and of course, they were nice, shook my hand and all that. But I think. I think I just got the feeling from my st. President and the rest of the council members there that, you know, this. This guy's gone. I mean, we're not even going to try to answer this guy's question. It's, you know, just a hug and a pat on the back. And how are you doing, Brother Joe? It's good to see you at church. And. Yeah, that was last November. I got married. I got married in. Oh, gosh, when did I get married? We're going on three months now. And a funnier thing about that is my bishop married us. So he.

John Dehlin [00:43:24] That's nice.

Hyrum Joe [00:43:25] Yeah, yeah, he offered that. We thought, you know, why not? I consider him a close friend to this day. I'm actually gonna even send him a link to this, and he's can invite him to watch this podcast when it's finished. So we got married at a nice, beautiful lake here in Prescott called Watson Lake. There's a beautiful lake and some rocks and dales and things like that. And it was a good little ceremony, and then we went and celebrated Red Lobster afterwards and just kept it real simple. But we. Let's see. I met with my. Met with my sick president and bishop. You know, they would text. We would text every once in a while, just, you know, just talking about, you know, have I more questions? I kind of feel like they don't want to discipline me, John. They don't. They didn't. They're not trying to get after me. I don't know if it's just because I, you know, the relationship that we had, or maybe they just, you know, don't know. I mean, I would imagine a typical person who's going through the same process and, you know, being disfellowshipped or excommunicated, that doesn't know Mormon stories, that they would just be gone because maybe they just don't know the history or, you know, they haven't really heard another person's perspective or had a place of community to kind of, you know, have, you know, reach out to others and learn from others. And that's. That's my. That's our, you know, that's our deal. That's our situation. That maybe somebody who doesn't have that. That they were. They'd be more quick to just disfellow or excommunicate them. But I kind of feel like they just hung on because, you know, a lot of our conversations were interesting to them. And I don't know, sometimes I feel like my bishop wants to know more. I kind of get that feeling. But, yeah, I feel like they don't. They don't want me out. They. Regardless of what I. You know, the premarital sticks and having a baby and, you know, you know, I don't believe in a prophet anymore. And, you know, there was no need for restoration. We already have. What we need, you know, I don't want to sustain Thomas Monson. You know, I mean, those are hurtful words. Those are hurtful things towards leaders and could get you in big, big trouble. You know, if this happened five, six years ago, there's no way. There's no way I could come out and, you know, address these topics with my leaders especially. But they did. They both did come over one more time. My stick president, bishop. They came over, I think, last. Oh, gosh, when was it? It was a little less than a week ago. And they just put their hand out and shook it and hugged me. And my wife. My wife was here with me and had just had a really nice, you know, out of Mormonism discussion. And they. For the first time, I felt like that was. That was the only time that they really accepted me being out of the Mormon Church. And so now I'm just, you know, I put my signature. I sent the request in, and I guess I'm just. They have to send that to the state presidency or the first. What do they call it, John? Sorry, the first in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Yeah, the first presidency.

Hyrum Joe [00:46:39] Yeah. Yeah. So that I'm just. I guess I'm just waiting a letter on that and, you know.

Resigning Membership and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [00:46:43] So you've resigned. You've resigned your membership.

Hyrum Joe [00:46:46] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] So you had some interactions with your. With the Tucson Institute teacher, is that right?

Hyrum Joe [00:46:54] Yeah, he was my bishop. He was when I. When I was serving as Elders Quorum in New Mexico. Yeah, he was the bishop at the time. And then when I got called in as a ward executive secretary, we were in the bishopric together there.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] And he made some interesting allegations, didn't he?

Hyrum Joe [00:47:15] Yeah, he did. That wasn't the last of it. From the time that I talked to you, he messaged me again.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] So basically, he warned you about me. And he says that he has a niece in his institute class, a niece of mine in his institute class who basically said, I'm estranged from all my kids and that Margi lets me sleep with whoever I want. And I don't have a niece in Tucson at all. Margi would never let me be unfaithful, and I'm in daily contact with my kids. So they're basically lying about me to you.

Hyrum Joe [00:47:56] Yeah, it's interesting that. I mean, for me, it's more shocking and just abhorrent that he would even say, you know, I mean, I literally, you know, attended temple sessions with this guy and prayed next to him and, you know, our families were close and I mean, he had. He was a seminary teacher there in town and so he had just this tremendous amount of respect. Great speaker. I admired the guy. But, yeah, so we got into these conversations. I mean, our conversations started a long time ago. I mean, you know, when I started having questions. And so he would answer them best he could, and we'd have discussions on and off. But I think he noticed some things on my Facebook page, and he would message me and ask me about something, and we'd get into another conversation and. But yeah, they just got more and more heated as we got on and we had another conversation. Our last discussion was about two weeks ago. And this was. We talked on all these. Some of these subjects. And this was his last response to me. And he was kind of calling out Jeremy Reynolds for the CES letter and things like that. And he had sent me a copy of the response of the CE letter, too. And I kind of looked over that a little bit. But, yeah, this was his last response to me. Me. He says, you've clearly made up your mind to take this spiritual journey in quotations. I wish you nothing but the best and pray your sour grapes do not set your children's teeth on edge. And the profligate debt of your bitterness and flippancy will be paid mostly by them.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] Oh, my gosh. What do you think about that?

Hyrum Joe [00:49:43] So I responded in. Here, I'll just read you my response. This is what I said to him. I said, kelly, do you realize what you just did? You wished me the best and cursed me at the same time. Typical. You dusted your feet off and left it as a. As a. As your testimony on me. So basically, he cursed my children because of my decision to leave the church. Back then, I think I would have been close, just, you know, shocked to hell. But now it's like, you know, I. I mean, he's just a typical, you know, tbm, self righteous, you know, guy who, you know, he just trying to defend the church but failed miserably. Yeah, it was kind of a difficult thing just because we had been close, but he. I just found out the other day that he. He blocked me on Facebook. Yeah. So that. That's interesting. I mean, my bishop now would never do anything like that. I mean, I know. I mean, the guy is just great. Let them leave if they want to. I mean, I think part of. The. Part of the problem I see with that leadership position is, you know, my state presidency came out and said, you know, Hiram, I'm responsible if you leave. I will have to deal with the Lord in a second coming. If you leave so that you Know that guilt and that shame is placed there, you know, And I told him, you know, so when he. When he came to my house and visited me, I said. I said, listen, whatever you do, I said, whatever happens, I'm always open to be your friend, to be your buddy, whatever you want to call it, and you are welcome to come to my house. I will feed you Navajo tacos. You know, we can go out to dinner. But I said, whatever you do, don't place that shame upon yourself and that guilt. I said, the Lord is not going to hold you responsible. I said, please don't do that. If anything, that's all I ask.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] You're taking care of him?

Hyrum Joe [00:51:57] Yeah. Yeah. You have to. Sometimes people just don't know. You need to kind of put him in check. But, yeah. So, you know, we ended the conversation of the visit, and he kind of leaned over and said, brother Joe, which. Which one. Who would you. Which one of us. Would you want us to say prayer or leave a prayer with you? And he kind of looked at Bishop and I said, I'll say it. So I said my own prayer in my own house, the way I wanted to, and they. They stood up and hugged, and we left.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] Who'd you pray to?

Hyrum Joe [00:52:32] Hopefully, who I pray to? I pray to the Great Spirit, to the Divine One,

John Dehlin [00:52:40] not Creator, not to the Mormon Heavenly Father.

Hyrum Joe [00:52:44] No, I didn't. I didn't open it with Heavenly Father.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] So really quickly. You know, the theme of this series is on kind of losing the Lamanites. Can you talk about just what it means when the church claims that a book is historical about a people and the book isn't historical? And if this idea of being given a false identity and a one that's cursed, if that's particularly difficult or shameful or hard or something that you're upset or angry about, help. Help us understand if that's something that we should see as kind of really serious and problematic from your perspective.

Hyrum Joe [00:53:38] Yeah, I mean, it is a serious thing. I mean, you know, when I got into my discussion with the former bishop of mine, one of the things that I told him was, you know, one of the things that I feel really, really upset about and have angst towards and feel really decept or really deceived about was the fact that, you know, I gave, you know, 4,500 to $5,000 a year to the church in tithing. You know, I was giving this to an organization that this was the church that was going to get me to heaven. And so tithing was a huge problem for Me, you know, and so they're going to sit there and, you know, have the leaders preach and teach and testify and bear testimony that if you, if you can just skip out on paying a bill or rent or your mortgage or, you know, groceries or a car payment and pay your tithing and say if the Lord is somehow some way mysteriously going to, you know, a check is gonna come or, you know, somehow that's gonna be paid off, you know, what worse or more harsh of a manipulation can you give to people that are putting everything into the church, their lives and time, dedication. I mean, you know, with all the callings that I had, you know, the times that I've had to leave my house at 11, 12 o' clock at night, you know, all the hours that I spent, you know, knocking on people's doors and helping the missionaries out, teaching my own people, not just in elders quorum, but, you know, while I was out in the missionary with the missionaries or just talking in sacrament, giving talks about how my grandfather, my great, great grandfather Lehi was really truly our grandfather by blood and telling my family, hey, you know, we need to get to church. The Book of Mormon is written for us. You know, I feel bad. In fact, I messaged some people on my Facebook saying, hey, you know what, this is my situation with the church now, whether whether or not you understand or don't agree with me. But you know, I apologize for teaching you what I did in elders quorum. I apologize for going to your door and trying to, you know, get you back into the church. And I did those things only because I was expected to by my bishop and stake president. I don't know that I even had a testimony. But I'm sorry. You know, it makes me want to reach out and truly apologize. But yeah, it's damaging. I mean, you know, just everything else that's brought up with the shame and the guilt, with feeling that you're not good enough. You know, nobody's fully clean. Nobody is just spotless out there. The leaders of the church, you know, they give that image. They'll say and confess, well, you know, I have sins too, and I have to repent from time to time. Okay, well, what are you doing? What are you sinning? You know, they're not going to answer that. You know, same thing with a prophet. You know, what's wrong with the prophet if he's just a man? They're not going to answer that. And the scripture, I don't remember where it's at, but you know, I know the church is heavy on, you know, no unclean things will enter into thy kingdom or thy temple. Well, if we're not. If we're all sinners, and why are you worthy? Why are you going to the temple? You need to go. You need to go repent. Right? And so those type of things are just. They're harmful. And so now I know I'm a sinner. And I can say that I'm a sinner, not that I'm gonna go and break the law or hurt anybody, but I know that I can just be myself and be good, but not have that title, that claim of a priesthood holder or temple recommend holder. But. Yeah. But anyway, going back to your initial question, my grandmother, you know, she's. She holds a special place in my heart. She believes, John. She's an absolute 100% believer as a. As a Navajo woman, and she's somebody that I could not even have this discussion about. There's no way. So, you know, that's something that I'll mention. That's an example, you know. Yeah. I have extended family. I know other members that are Navajo and New Mexico in my hometown that I know they're going through this same thing. But they don't know Mormon stories. They don't have support groups. There's nowhere for them to turn but to God and say, God, why is this happening? Why do I feel this way? Why do I not feel included? Why do I feel like an outcast when I go to the 24th celebration? You know, like, they have those. I know that, and it's hurting them. But if they leave, if they question, then that's worse off because what does that lead to? That leads to a divorce. That leads to. They're gonna go, start partying. They're gonna just let loose. Their. Their life's going to go down the crapper if they find this stuff out and leave, because they just don't know. They just don't know any better.

Reconnecting With Navajo Heritage and Identity

John Dehlin [00:59:15] So really quick as you've learned more about the Navajo people and just Native Americans in general, do you feel like your. Your ancestors deserve more respect for their accomplishments than sort of being labeled as dark and loathsome people that fell away into wickedness and the white man needs to come and redeem them. My understanding is the accomplishments of the Native Americans, you know, civilization, wise, agricultural, you know, linguistic, spiritual, whatever, whatever perspective you want to take, it's a heritage to be proud of. And does the narrative in the Book of Mormon allow for, you know, for your ancestors to get the respect they deserve, or does it disrespect your ancestors.

Hyrum Joe [01:00:16] Yeah, I think it disrespects entirely to make that claim. I mean, who put that idea in there? You know, whose idea was it that, you know, Native Americans are supposed. Supposed descendants of, you know, Hebrew people or, you know, he. A group of people, people who have that bloodline. I mean, if you look at the science, and that's the route you're going to take, you know, DNA clearly shows that there's no evidence of that. Yeah, I mean, you know, going back to the ancestral thing, I mean, if you look at. If you look at The World War II, you know, the Navajo code talkers, you know, would we have won that war without the language, without the Navajo language? And you have these. These Anglo Mormon school board members,

John Dehlin [01:01:15] you

Hyrum Joe [01:01:15] know, who want to just take that out, out of schools. I don't know if I'm in a place to ask for an apology. I mean, you know, it is what it is. They're going to go on the Book of Mormon's true. They're going to teach this stuff and continue teaching the mission. I mean, how many missionaries do I have out there? How many missionaries are in South America and Mexico and the specific islands and, you know, the reservations? I mean, this stuff is being taught right now, John, that this book is written for you and your people. I mean, it's not gonna end. The Mormon Church is too big and too strong. But, I mean, yeah, an apology would be nice. I just. It's just not going to come. The church doesn't work, you know, in a democratic, you know, or democracy. You know what I'm trying to say. It doesn't work that way. It's not. It's not twofold. I mean, so, you know, just for me, though, personally, the best thing for me to do is just to hand in my resignation. And here's my opinion. This is my stance on the church without or with the least amount of contention and anger and resentment towards my leaders and I guess the church as a whole, the gospel, the Book of Mormon, and just go on with life and just do my thing. And, you know, if other Native Americans out there, other Navajos in particular, you know, have questions and they want to come to me, man, I would love to have a conversation, but, you know, it's a tough thing because I don't. I certainly don't want to lead them away from what's worked for them and, you know, because that could cause, you know, destruction of marriages and their faith and practices, and people don't take that very well. I'M lucky to be able to have gone through it and, you know, had a tough time, but, you know, to come out okay.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] Yeah. So tell us, Hyrum, where you are now. Are you finding joy outside the church? Are you able to be happy? Are you feeling better? Are you feeling worse? You know, even. Even your former bishop, former, you know, the institute teachers threatening you with sadness and darkness and misery for you and your kids. Talk about what you're doing now and how you're doing now and, you know, to what extent you've built your life back into something that is bringing you joy.

Hyrum Joe [01:04:01] Yeah, sure. I started attending the Navajo sweat lodges probably about two years ago and still do when I can. It's hard, you know, I'm so far away from the reservation. Well, I'm only a couple hours, I guess, but it's tough to get away, to get back there. I want to eventually build my own sweat lodge here and start practicing more on that. But. So when I started to recognize that my identity was taken from me because I was lured into the Mormon Church and its beliefs, when that hit me, I was invited to a sweat lodge with my father for the first time in a long time. And as I sat in that sweat lodge, it was completely dark. It was hot. It was probably like 140, 45 degrees in there. And, you know, this was the time when I was a mess, complete mess. Everybody knew in that sweat lodge what I was going through. And so they were singing, they were, you know, prayers were being dedicated to me. And I read, you know, somebody mentioned to me, you know, hey, Hiram, it might be hot in here, but, you know, eventually your focus is going to be taken off of your, you know, your problems with your divorce and faith crisis, you know, but let the heat take care of that. And I was like, thinking, well, what. The heat. The heat is burning. You know, it hurts. He says, it's okay, just let it burn. But I want you to hum along with the songs. And so the minister was there. He sang songs. I didn't know the words. I didn't speak that, you know, the words of those songs. But I started to hum along. And as I started doing that, the heat kind of subsided a little bit. It was getting, you know, not cooling off, but it wasn't as bad. And at one point in the sweat loud ceremony, the medicine man turned to each. And everybody was. And he asked us the question, and he asked us, he says, hey, brothers, nephews, who in this lifetime, who sustains you? And as I thought about that, immediately my mind Thinks I've sustained my leaders all my life in the church, bishops, stake, presidents, prophet, you name it. It's the first thing that comes on mind, right? And it's kind of quiet. Nobody's giving an immediate answer. And the medicine man spoke up and he said. He came back and he just answered his own question. And he said. He says. He says you are sustained by nature. He says, you're sustained by fire and air and stones and wood. He says, if you think about it, if you only had those things in your life, you are good because you're warm. You have structure, you have water. The rest represents life. And he says those things sustain you. God sustains you because he gave you this as a gift. And the great Creator is offering to you that, to you, as a gift. And it was just the most beautiful thing ever. And I thought, there. There's no priesthood holder out there that would ever, ever teach this. They don't even know this stuff. And I just started learning more about the clans. I started learning more about my history. I started learning more about, you know, our relationships to people. I started learning about the constellation of stars in the sky, how there's male and female stars. A buddy of mine, an Navajo friend of mine, taught me once. He said, look up in this and look up in the galaxy. Look up in the stars at night, and he says, you'll see a male star. And that's. That's the Big Dipper. There's a cluster of stars there. And he says, if you look up. And then he says, if you look over on the east side, there's a. Another cluster of stars that's in the shape of a W. And this is. Those are female stars over there. He says, every person on this earth represents those stars. And he says, God made it that way because we are to marry, have one companion is what he told me. We are to have one companion only. And he says, Joseph Smith was wrong. And this is a former. Former Mormon as well. And he says, once I started to figure that out, I said, mormon Church is wrong. They don't know what they're talking about. He says, it's one for one. That's it. You look up into the stars and you learn this stuff. So I am just engulfed in my tradition, John. I get up and pray the Navajo way. You know, I've got a medicine bag, like I said. I try to attend sweat lodges and ceremonies as much as I can. And I'm teaching this to my own children. Gosh, you know, I. There's just something about Going back to the reservation and, you know, hearing your grandparents speak the Navajo language fluently. You know, my kids gravitate towards that. When I'm working in my studio, sometimes I've. I've played, you know, Navajo songs and powwow songs, and the kids will go in there, and. There's a spirit. That is strong, and they want to be around that. And they sit in sacrament meeting. They're fidgety, they just want to leave. But when they're around those songs, they'll just sit there and listen. I've taken upon myself to indulge myself in my native tradition again, and that's where my spiritual strength comes from. And I pray my own way. I pray where I want to. I try to spend time in the mountains. My Sundays, we kind of started attending another Christian church, but, you know, we just stay home and drive as a family to different places. And, you know, like I said, we just. My family is free now, and dinner table prayers are in that rope type. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this food. I mean, it's. It's different. It's. We hold hands sometimes, but all our prayers are different. And it's. It's a good opportunity for my kids to learn that they can pray how they want to and express what they're really feeling inside. And that's important. And that's kind of. That's kind of where I'm at right now, John. Who knows what the future is going to hold? I'm still young. I got a lot to learn. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's been. It's been pretty amazing lately. I've got a good wife who's been supportive of me from day one, and she's. She's. She even. She's listening to the podcast right now.

New Relationships and Sources of Support

John Dehlin [01:11:37] She. Is she Navajo?

Hyrum Joe [01:11:39] No. No, she's Anglo and Mexican.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Well, give her our best, will ya? And I will. Hiram, I just want you to know that this is a very moving and meaningful podcast for me. I really appreciate your willingness to tell your story. I feel sad for the difficulties you've had in relationship to the church. It sounds like there's been a lot of guilt and shame and a lot of negativity along the way, and you tried so hard, and it feels like the church wasn't there for you when you needed the church most.

Hyrum Joe [01:12:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] And I feel bad that you were misled and deceived by the church. And at the same time, I'm glad you stuck with it. I'm glad you hung in there, and I'M really glad that you are rediscovering your own sense of power and of spirituality and that you're finding joy and meaning in your life now.

Hyrum Joe [01:12:45] Absolutely. Thank you. I appreciate it, John. Hey, is there a way that I could leave with the Navajo prayer song?

John Dehlin [01:12:53] That'd be great. If you want to have your wife come and sit next to you, she's welcome to. If she doesn't want to, that's fine, too, but.

Hyrum Joe [01:13:00] Yeah, yeah, she wanted to. The kids just got home from school, so she's with us.

John Dehlin [01:13:05] No problem.

Hyrum Joe [01:13:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] Leave us with a Navajo thought or prayer song. Yeah.

Hyrum Joe [01:13:09] Yeah. I'm just trying to learn some songs and trying to, you know, be authentic and indulge myself into that. But, yeah, just. It's called the. The Blessing Way, and this song is saying in some ceremonies by some medicine men or Hataflis. So this is a song. I didn't write it. It's. It's been. It's been around for years, and it's. It's really just one. I just wanted to go out to people who, you know, have been through similar situations that I have. People who've been hurt, people who've gone through pain, people trying to. Still trying to go through it right now, people who've left. And, you know, we all deserve, you know, to walk in happiness. We call it Hojo in Navajo. And I just. I just wanted to sing it to you and to my Navajo people as well.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] Beautiful.

Hyrum Joe [01:14:06] Blessing away. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] And what did that say?

Hyrum Joe [01:14:50] May beauty walk around you, above you, below you, behind you, by your side, left side, right side. May beauty surround you always.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] I love it. Well, Hiram, Charlotte, your mom writes, love you, son. You did a great job expressing your spiritual experiences. Love you, son. That's what your mom says.

Hyrum Joe [01:15:13] All right. Love you, too, Mom.

John Dehlin [01:15:15] And I'll just. I'll just add, lots of listeners were tuning in, and we just want to thank you, Hyrum, for sharing your story, for your authentic self, for your example of loving truth and integrity and seeking out the right path and for kind of correcting the wrongs in your life. Congratulations.

Hyrum Joe [01:15:42] Yeah, thank you, John. Thanks for providing a place for people like me going through some crisis and transitions and giving us a place and community to express ourselves and to be ourselves and just to talk and have a good conversation. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:15:56] That's great. Please share with us a link to your art. I'd love to give our listeners a chance to support the work that you do, so.

Hyrum Joe [01:16:06] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Will you send us a link to some of your artwork?

Hyrum Joe [01:16:09] Yes, you bet.

Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:16:11] All right. All right. Well, I want to thank everyone for tuning in today to Mormon Stories. Hope you've enjoyed this series so far on Losing the Lamanites. Want to thank Hiram Joe for again sharing his stuff with us. Encourage everyone if you appreciate this work, please Support us@mormonstories.org 10 or 25 bucks a month or whatever you can afford can really make a difference and help us continue. So thanks everyone for supporting us. Thanks again to Hiram and want to tell everyone, take care, good luck and we'll see everyone again soon. Take care, Hiram.

Hyrum Joe [01:16:49] Yep. Thank you. Take care. Go Nat.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] All right. What does that mean?

Hyrum Joe [01:16:54] Goodbye.

John Dehlin [01:16:55] All right. Go Nat.

Hyrum Joe [01:16:57] I'll go Nat.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] All right. Thanks, Hiram. Take care.

Hyrum Joe [01:17:00] Yep. Bye bye.

John Dehlin [01:17:07] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a modern monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Hyrum Joe [01:17:29] When with the wounded heart, anger or mouth,

John Dehlin [01:17:40] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.