How many of Joseph Smith’s revelations were a success and how many have the church needed to redefine overtime? Today we are honored to have John Larsen in studio for an epic breakdown of Joseph Smith’s revelation for the “Lamanites”, calling Elders to preach to the Native Americans and the subsequent ramifications of Latter-Day Saint teachings for Native American people.
Show Notes:
- Help John Larsen crowd source info for an upcoming episode: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ptibmm/john_larsen_mormon_stories_jaredite_barge_thread/
- Lamanite Truth website
- Thrive website
- Mormon Stories episode Native American Mormon Women and the Lamanite Myth
- Tribe by Sebastian Junger
- The Joseph Smith Revelations Text and Commentary (Michael Marquardt)
- Encyclopedia of Mormonism
- Mormon Stories: Indian Placement Program
- The Book of Mormon’s 19th Century Context – John Hamer
- Exterminate all the Brutes on HBO
- O Stop and Tell Me Red Man Hymn
- Latest Issue of Dialogue Journal focusing on Native Americans
- Original Title Page to Book of Mormon
- D&C 3: 19-20
- D&C 28:8
- D&C 30:5-6
- A Mission to the Lamanites
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As a graduate of a Methodist Seminary I can attest that John Larsen did an excellent exegesis on what the true church means. The LDS is mistaken in the idea of one-true Church of Christ. There is not any New Testament scholar that would agree with this idea. John Larsen is the best!
I’m not a Mormon, but grew up with the culture having come from Simi Valley, CA, which had the largest Mormon population outside of Utah. I’ve been taught some of the philosophy and have used the church resources to do my genealogy, including the Santa Monica temple genealogy center. I’ve ready several books criticizing the structure and norms of the church. With my limited understanding, I appreciate the episodes from John. He explains the text thoroughly and accurately. I also appreciate his F-bombs. He never lets a good opportunity to use this word go by; it also displays his passion and distain for the church. I’d love for him to do a podcast like “Mormonism for Dummies”. I grew up as a Catholic and no longer practice any organized religion and sometimes I get lost and have to rewind the podcast, but I don’t quite understand what he’s talking about. Thanks for what you do and keep the John Larsen episodes coming. Thanks, Jenny
Please point to where we may share or participate research for Jaradite barges.
Here’s the thread, Phred! Thanks for supporting!
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/ptibmm/john_larsen_mormon_stories_jaredite_barge_thread/
In the introduction, John referenced that there were some members who believed that they had to wear their garments even during intercourse. I was taught this during my recommend interview to be married in the temple in 1977 by a counselor in the East Los Angeles stake presidency named Harold (I think) Jarvis. He gave me direct instructions that I was not to remove my garments at all during my honeymoon. He told me that he and his wife never fully remove their garments even for showering. He wanted me to commit that I would follow that practice or I would not get a recommend and could not be married in the temple 3 days later. I never obeyed his direction but I was scared to death for years to ask anybody if that was right.
John, You don’t seem to know the old Mormon Doctrine from the time of Joseph Smith. 1) The end of the world War starting at South Carolina 2)the Lamanites would rise up and conquer the white people and overthrow the US government 3) The Lamanites would build the New Jerusalem in Jackson County 4) Christ would return and sit on his throne in the temple that the Lamanites built for him. The whites would assist in the building of the temple and in Christ’s government through the quorum of 50. The real reason why Lee was excommunicated from the Church is that he was pushing this original Lamanite position and the 15 couldn’t handle it.
Great podcast as always with John Larsen. Has John ever dived into the battle of Coriantumr and Shiz in Ether 15 where Coriantumr “smote” off the head of Shiz and Shiz raised up on his hands and fell after he struggled for breath?
Those listeners interested in Iroquois entanglements with the Book of Mormon should check out the new book, Essays on American Indian and Mormon History, winner of the JWHA Best Anthology Award. https://uofupress.lib.utah.edu/essays-on-american-indian-and-mormon-history/
The last time I went to church to help my wife with her primary class in early summer 2021 they sang Book of Mormon Stories in singing time…complete with the actions like the tomahawk. The real crazy thing is our ward is mostly on a native American reservation. It was so awkward. These things did not die off in the 70s, they are still alive and unwell!
Thanks so much for this podcast on such an important topic. Very well done.
In a nod the financial support behind Signature Book, they offer “The Joseph Smith Revelations: Text and Commentary” by H. Michael Marquardt online free as charge. .
https://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-joseph-smith-revelations/
If you look around to see how much a hard copy costs, free access to the content is a big deal.
Just finished the episode. Great subject to tackle. John Larsen kept referring to 50 million Native Americans present at the time of the Mayflower arrival or time of Joseph Smith. The 50 million, or more, was at the time of the Conquistadors. By the time the Mayflower arrived the number of Native Americans was more like 5-10 million. North America by the 1600s was a post-apocalyptic civilization devastated by Old World diseases.
Imagine our civilization losing 80-90% of its population. There would be no functional government and certainly no nations but mostly small tribes or enclaves left. How much technology would be lost? Most cities would be abandoned, there are no sources of food in a city without supporting farms, which no longer existed. Nature would be much more wild, huge buffalo herds prevalent.
John Larsen mentions the apostolic charge I believe in this episode. Can someone post a link to that document or book where I can read further?
Much of this episode is about changed revelations and false failed prophecy.
Something that hits on both of those is the civil war prophecy. That prophecy is, of course, famous for both being correct about where the war traditionally started, and wrong about the war becoming a world conflict when other countries join the fight.
I’ve heard it said that the South Carolina part of the prophecy was added later. Is that actually the case, or is it an “anti-Mormon lie”?
Hi Fatfinger,
Here is what I found on this:
South Carolina was a problem to the North even back in Joseph Smiths time. A newspaper that Smith subscribed to outlined the SC issues just 4 days before Smith wrote the revelation. But yes, SC was in the revelation from the beginning. The problem is that lots of people were thinking that SC would be the problem and would be rebels even back in J. Smiths time.
I simply can’t think of a revelation purely from J. Smith that came true. I am open to anyone who can correct me on that.
Hope that helps. John Larsen did a great podcast on this in his Mormon Expression podcast.