Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 785

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm very excited to have you with us today. It is August 22, 2017 and we're very excited to have with us as our guest today on Mormon Stories, John Ogden. John is the author of the book When Mormons A Way to Save Relationships and Seek Quality of Life. Over the past several months or more, I've definitely had people tell me that they've enjoyed John's book and that I should have him on, including Jerry Renshaw. And basically if Jerry Lee Renshaw tells me I should do something, I just do it because that's generally just a smart thing to do. And so with that, we're going to be interviewing today John Ogden. Before we jump into our interview with John Ogden, we have a few quick announcements. We do have Mormon Stories does have an Instagram account, so please follow us on Instagram, also on Twitter. Most importantly please like our Facebook page. Mormon Stories Podcast on Facebook. That is the main way that we promote what we do. And if you'll like us, that will help people know about us. And if you really want to help us, please give us a positive review. So go to Mormon Stories podcast on Facebook page and give us a positive review. That will really help get the word out. And then finally probably a tying for importance would be to go to itunes, log into itunes and give us a favorable review. Those things really make a difference. Thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories to keep us going. You can go to mormonstories.org if you want to support us financially. That means the world. The final few announcements have to do with upcoming events. September 14th and 15th we'll be doing a Mormon stories workshop plus mixer in Seattle, Washington. So please join us there. October 20th, 22nd we'll be having a retreat in Australia. Right now there aren't enough people who have signed up to be able to afford to bring me out. So we have Gina Colvin who is for sure going to be attending that retreat. And whether or not I attend just depends on whether maybe seven or eight more people sign up between now and then. But know that that's gonna happen either way. We're coming to the San Francisco Bay Area November 9th through 10th, and we're taking nominations for events in 2018. If you want us to bring a workshop or retreat to your area, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com and then finally, of course, we've got the Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas October 24th through 28th, 2018. We'd love to have you so try and make those announcements as brief as possible. Now let's dive in to our interview with John Ogden. John has been. John has a BA And a master's from Brigham Young University, where he studied methods of civil discourse. He lives in Provo with his wife and two sons. And John's been following what we do in the Open Stories foundation for several years, and I guess that culminated in his publication of this book. So today we are going to be interviewing John. The reason why we do these interviews live on Facebook, because we really value your online feedback, we value your questions, we value your comments, etc. And so please do join us with questions and comments. It makes our interviews more interactive. So we've got 43 people who've already joined us, including Gina Colvin, Ann, Jeffrey, Steve, Rick Martine, another Rick, Melissa. All of you welcome. And please start posting your questions and comments now, and we'll incorporate them. All right, without any further ado, John Ogden, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. It's great to have you.

Jon Ogden [00:04:54] Great to be here. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] All right, so I think this interview will probably be in two parts. Part one will be your story about your own Mormon journey. And then part two, we'll talk about the book and specifically your feedback and suggestions and ideas around how to save relationships and seek a quality of life. How does that sound?

Jon Ogden [00:05:16] Sounds great.

Jon Ogden's Mormon Story and Background

John Dehlin [00:05:17] All right, so tell us your Mormon story.

Jon Ogden [00:05:21] All right, I would say, well, I grew up in Springville, Utah, and my household highly encouraged reading widely. And so we did. I'm an English major. My other sister's an English major, and another sister studies computer science now. And so we all value that a lot. I was pretty much just straight into the church. No major dilemmas, until, really, my mission is when things started to get a little tricky for me. I would talk to people just in tracking. And

John Dehlin [00:06:08] where were you getting your machine?

Jon Ogden [00:06:10] I was in Ventura, California.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay, so you're. What year is this about?

Jon Ogden [00:06:14] This is 2002 to 2004.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Okay, so Kyle just said you have an incredible beard. Well done. So I have to just throw that comment out there. Thanks, Kyle.

Jon Ogden [00:06:22] Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay, so you're raised in Utah, orthodox, believing Mormon. You go to Ventura, California. Okay, what happens?

Jon Ogden [00:06:31] Well, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] And you don't. You don't have to hold your mic. Are you holding your mic?

Jon Ogden [00:06:35] Yeah, I am.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] You could just set it down. It's okay. We can hear you. Great. Don't worry about that.

Jon Ogden [00:06:39] All right, so. So what happened was that I started finding people who were well versed in anti Mormon literature what they would term as anti Mormon literature, or what I would term at the time as anti Mormon literature. And I started seeing that the narrative that I've been taught was perhaps a little more complex than I thought, and I started to have pretty severe doubts.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] What year? About what year was this?

Jon Ogden [00:07:06] This is 2003. So midway through my mission, 2003.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] So that's 14 years ago. Two years before Mormon story started. I'm just trying to get the timeline straight in my head. Okay, so 2003, this is pre. Rough stone rolling, pre sort of Facebook. All right, and what types of anti Mormon stuff did you get hit with?

Jon Ogden [00:07:28] So I think the biggest one for me was the Book of Abraham that the papyrus had been found. We just tracked it into this one guy who walked us through it and talked about how the papyrus had been found and how it didn't match the. What. What Joseph Smith said that the papyrus was about. And that really shook me. So that was the primary thing.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] What, did you just believe him or did you have a way to kind of look up and verify what he was telling you?

Jon Ogden [00:07:56] I mostly just believed him because he seemed so earnest and he was right about so many other things within Mormonism that I was just kind of thrown back. I was like, okay, this guy doesn't seem like he's full of crap. He seems like he knows what he's talking about. So kind of based on his authority or just his manner, his command, I was like, okay, this is strange. Another major factor for me was just learning about how many wives Joseph had. I wasn't familiar with that until my mission. And then other things surfaced just in my.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] How did you find out about Joseph's wives?

Jon Ogden [00:08:38] Just another person we tracked it into. He had, like, a book and showed us the book that, like, detailed all these things.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Man, missionary work is perilous to your testimony.

Jon Ogden [00:08:48] Well, it was strange because I. The other missionaries weren't nearly as affected as I was. I think that just for whatever reason, those things spoke to me more than Other people did at the time,

John Dehlin [00:09:02] which

Jon Ogden [00:09:02] I think is fine, that they weren't affected by it, but for whatever reason, I was.

Navigating Doubt During a Mission

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Okay, so what? Ashley wants to know how your companions reacted, but I'm curious just how you managed having serious doubts on your mission.

Jon Ogden [00:09:20] Well, I managed because I. Well, I wrote a high school teacher, my favorite high school teacher, who taught psychology at Springville High, and she wasn't a Mormon. And so I kind of laid out the things I was dealing with as a missionary, and she wrote back, and her letter was amazing, really helpful. She. She said, you've committed to serve a mission, and so I, you know, I would encourage you to finish what you committed to. But then she. She also outlined, like, how she sees the same struggles that Mormons go through in other cultures, like the high concentration of Baptists or high concentration of Catholics. They tend to overlook the flaws in their own culture. So she helped humanize the problem and say, like, this isn't just a Mormon problem. This is a problem that humans go through. They find flaws in their culture, and they have to wrestle with it.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Who is this again?

Jon Ogden [00:10:22] She was a psychology teacher in Springville High School.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Okay, so how are you corresponding with her?

Jon Ogden [00:10:28] I wrote her a letter.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] So she just wrote you back? And. And she was never Mormon.

Jon Ogden [00:10:33] She was never Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] So she's giving you sort of techniques to become a more sophisticated church participant as never having never been Mormon. That's really interesting.

Jon Ogden [00:10:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Okay. And did you talk to your companions or your mission president or anything like that?

Jon Ogden [00:10:50] I tried to talk to my mission president. He was pretty dismissive. I just said, like, those things will be sorted out. I got the sense pretty quickly that he just didn't know much about those aspects of the history, and he just wasn't interested in those aspects. So he just kind of immediately brought it back to testimony.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] What was that like for you?

Jon Ogden [00:11:13] It was disheartening. I also felt a sense of empathy. Like, I could see where he was coming from as a mission president, not wanting to get bogged down in those things. He was primarily focused on what are the number of baptisms we're gonna get? And I could see how, from his perspective, it might have seemed like a distraction.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay, so did you go through a full blown. So did her letter just kind of fix it for you? Did you go through a full crisis?

Jon Ogden [00:11:42] I also wrote my dad and asked him a number of the questions that I had, and he sent me a book that was called, like, Answering Challenging Mormon Questions. And I read through that, and between the letter from my Psychology teacher and the letter from my dad, it helped alleviate enough of the problems that I could say, okay, I'm just going to finish my mission.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] And at the time, would you have sort of reached a point where you didn't believe anymore or did you just sort of suspend any final decision on that? Because I would imagine it's really hard to bear your testimony as a missionary and convert people when you're struggling to believe it's true. How'd you handle that dissonance?

Jon Ogden [00:12:28] Yeah, so there were a number of things that I would just back off of, especially like the pearl of great price, you know, the sofa, the papyri. But there was the main thing that I couldn't figure out as a missionary was how Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon. And that kind of carried me through the challenge from Hugh Nibley really stuck with me as a missionary where he says, could you write the Book of Mormon? And he kind of lists out 33 things that he says, this would be impossible for anybody to do. And so that was the main thing that held me on as far as my testimony of historical truth claims go.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] We're getting a couple comments in. Ruth writes, what a great teacher. So she thinks you had a super cool teacher that would write you such a cool letter.

Jon Ogden [00:13:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Several people are relating to you learning late about Joseph Smith and his wives. Hannah writes, I didn't know Joseph was a polygamist until after I'd already left the church a couple years ago. She's 25. She says it blew her mind. Melissa writes, Hannah, I'm 50 and found out in the last two years, several people are giving shout outs to Springville, including, including Rebecca. Caleb writes, I was so sheltered on my mission in the early 90s in Brazil. Let's see. Mark asked, did you feel betrayed or lied to by the church as you discovered these things? He says, he sure did. Did you feel betrayed, John Ogden?

Jon Ogden [00:14:02] I did. So there was this moment as a seminary student where we watched the video of Joseph Smith's martyrdom. It was a church production, early 2000s. And in this production, Joseph Smith is just killed, like In Cold Blood Falls out the Window is really inspiring. And it was really foundational for my testimony as a teenager. And then one of the things I found out, this was like the second week of my mission, I found out that Joseph actually shot people in Carthage jail, that he had a gun and he shot back. And that wasn't represented in the seminary video. And that shook me as well because I thought, why? How could. How could this go through so many committees and not include that detail that. That he had a gun and he shot people. I don't think that was. I mean, I understand why Joseph had to gun and he shot people because he was terrified, but why not just include it in a video for seminary students? Why. Why hide that? And so little things like that felt a bit like betrayal.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] One final comment in this section from Annalisa, she writes, I had a similar experience as a Christian Nevermo. The problems were never emphasized or pointed out, so I was unknowingly ignorant for years. So basically a note from Annalisa that this isn't necessarily a uniquely Mormon problem.

Jon Ogden [00:15:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Yeah. So cool. All right. So you were able to finish your mission, is that right?

Jon Ogden [00:15:37] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] And in terms of bearing your testimony and baptizing people, what was that like for you?

Jon Ogden [00:15:45] I still felt good about it, generally speaking, because I still saw so much goodness in Mormonism, and I still believed that the Book of Mormon had to be something special, had to be divine in some way. So that's how I finished out my mission that way. Cool.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] Okay. So you get home around, what, 2004?

Jon Ogden [00:16:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] So you get home in 2004, then what'd you do?

Jon Ogden [00:16:09] I started going to BYU. I focused on dating and schooling, and that took up all my time. So I didn't get down into the weeds of Mormon history anymore. You kind of coasted along, put it on the shelf. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] Okay. When did you graduate?

Jon Ogden [00:16:27] 2008 with my Bachelor's and then 2010 with my Master's.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] So were you oblivious? So right around 2004 is when the Mormon blogs came onto the scene. 2005 with Mormon stories, things started really picking up. 2006, 2007. Were you kind of oblivious to all that while you were at byu?

Jon Ogden [00:16:48] Yeah, when I was at byu, I was.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Okay. So what took you out of your comfort zone? Terms of what brought you back to your shelf?

Sister Leaves the Church and Faith Crisis Deepens

Jon Ogden [00:16:58] Sure. My younger sister left the church.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] What year was this?

Jon Ogden [00:17:05] I think 2009.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Okay, so, all right, 2009. I'm with you.

Jon Ogden [00:17:11] And then my best friend from high school did as well.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:17:16] And so I was like, okay, I need to dive back into this, and I understand where they're coming from.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] How'd you react to your sister when she told you she.

Jon Ogden [00:17:25] I would say I'm a little disappointed with my reaction. Kind of saying, you know, you can't. She was really affected by Grant Palmer's book. And I was kind of like, you can't necessarily just trust a source like this. I mentioned something like that, but I also wasn't dismissive of her as a person. So I'm not completely disappointed with my response, but marginally so.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Okay, so you're only slightly invalidating.

Jon Ogden [00:17:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Which is totally. It's probably 99th percentile, so congratulations.

Jon Ogden [00:18:04] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Okay, so she leaves. Your friend leaves. What does that do to you?

Jon Ogden [00:18:10] So that's. I started reading Roughstone rolling around that time.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:18:17] And started reading Michael Quinn. I'm trying to think of other sources. Other sources like those.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] This sounds like a slippery slope.

Jon Ogden [00:18:28] Yes, indeed. And then Mormonthink at the time. And the thing for me was that I still. Up until then, I still was. I still didn't know how to explain the Book of Mormon. And so the main shift for me was when I started reading more about it. And I really like how Richard Bushman has said that the dominant narrative isn't true. I really like that framing because I think that's a very accurate way to say it. I didn't have those words back then because he only said them recently.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] What are you comfortable? In what ways did you decide the dominant narrative? Was it true? Are you comfortable being specific?

Jon Ogden [00:19:11] Sure. So the main thing for me was just realizing that there was an explanation for the Book of Mormon that was the main turning point.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] What explanation seemed more plausible?

Jon Ogden [00:19:23] The explanation is that I couldn't have written the Book of Mormon because I am a very unimpressive human being, all things considered. But Joseph had these just amazing capabilities, as do other religious geniuses, or other geniuses is how I would say it. And a religious genius is very, very rare. But they're. They're explainable. Like, they're just an outlier, somebody who has just amazing abilities. And in Joseph's case, as B.H. roberts talked about in his book, he talked about how Emma, his. Or not Emma, sorry, Joseph Smith's mother, would say that when Joseph was a teenager, he would regale them with stories about the ancient North Americans. And he had lots and lots of practice as a storyteller. And he was just. He just had a knack for it that seemed. It seemed so different from normal humans that it seemed supernatural. It seemed like it had to be divine. But he'd been practicing it for nearly a decade before the Book of Mormon was published. And so that was kind of like, oh, okay, I couldn't have written the Book of Mormon, but it's possible that Joseph as a religious genius could have put it together.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Did you draw. Did you make a conclusion about that? Are you comfortable now with, with the source of the Book of Mormon, where it came from.

Jon Ogden [00:21:03] Yeah, I mean the conclusion I drew is that Joseph as a religious genius and with the help of the people who were there, but mainly Joseph I think was. I like Harold Bloom's approach where he's, in his book, what's it called, The Religion of America. The American religion talks about Joseph going into trances and just being able to dictate effortlessly. And he believes that that's how the Book of Mormon came into being. And I do as well.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] And how did that affect your views on its divine origin and on Joseph Smith and just the question of sort of fraud or that sort of thing. Sure.

Jon Ogden [00:21:52] So I don't, I didn't and still don't believe that Joseph was a fraud in the sense that many people might interpret that word. I think that he really, he saw that he had an ability that seems supernatural, it seems superhuman. And he believed like he really did believe. And it's a lot easier to understand that when we consider that he was raised believing folk magic and he was raised believing some of these things. And so it didn't seem so far fetched for him to say like, you know what, I do have these abilities and God works in these strange ways with divining rods and he believed those things. So it doesn't seem to me too far of a leap to say that he just legitimately believed that he had some gifts. And then as the story went on, the gift kept being exaggerated and exaggerated in retrospect.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] So not an intentional fraud. But how did you reconcile the plates, specifically the golden plates.

Jon Ogden [00:23:05] So the. So yeah, so I should clarify there. I think that you could. When I say that I don't think he was a fraud the way that most people would say fraud, I mean that I don't think that he was just a snake oil salesman, but he certainly was deceiving himself and in, he essentially bought into the myth fully, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] So in some way he manufactured the plates or something like that because he felt like it would be important to perpetuate his powers or people's perception of his powers or the story.

Jon Ogden [00:24:01] Yeah, that's an interesting question. I haven't given that enough thought to think, to think through why he was so adamant about the plates and not the hat and the stone. That's fascinating. I'll have to read more about that to see like what was going on there.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] But in your mind, in your mind, an angel probably didn't deliver plates to Joseph, is that what you're saying?

Jon Ogden [00:24:31] Yeah, okay, I would say that, but.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] But in your mind, Joseph felt like he was doing good and maybe he even believed kind of that he had powers. And so either he somehow the ends justified the means because he felt like he was doing God's will. Is that what you're saying?

Jon Ogden [00:24:50] Yeah. And I would put him in a category with other religious geniuses through the ages. Muhammad, any number of religious geniuses who just have a natural ability. And then when the people tell the story afterward, they trump up the story's claims and it becomes more and more magnificent and then people just believe it because everybody believes it and on it goes.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] That's pretty much how religions get started.

Jon Ogden [00:25:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Okay, so your literalistic views of Joseph Smith fell apart at that point. So how did things progress for you? Church wise, testimony wise, etc. Did you circle back with your sister and say, hey, I get it now?

Jon Ogden [00:25:37] Yeah, I did. And my best friend.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] Okay, okay, yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:25:42] So yeah, we've definitely become closer and trying to think of where to start. We. Let's see where to start. So I'll start with this. The main thing that shifted for me after that was this realization that the dominant narrative was no longer sustainable. And I mean that in a way that I couldn't see a way for my children, I have two kids. To keep their. The traditional narrative of Mormonism.

Questioning the Traditional Mormon Narrative

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Give me the five sentence traditional narrative of Mormonism in summary form so that we know what you're talking about.

Jon Ogden [00:26:29] That the Mormon Church is the only true church on the earth, that God is only talking through this church and that the priesthood is only available in this church.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Got it. So the exclusive truth claims, the authority. The exclusive authority claims some of the literalistic truth claims and sort of the. Any Mormon exceptionalism. You sort of said that's not sustainable.

Jon Ogden [00:27:03] Yeah, okay. Certainly for my kids, because I couldn't raise them with the traditional narrative.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] You couldn't pass on. It wasn't that they would not believe it someday. It was that you didn't feel like you could hand that narrative down to them in clear conscience, is that right?

Jon Ogden [00:27:22] It's that it's both actually. So I think that it's unsustainable for me to do it, but it's also unsustainable for it's going to be increasingly unsustainable for the next generation. Especially how the church just put out the, this, the pictures of the seer stone, etc. Like the old view of Mormon or Joseph only translating the Book of Mormon through the plates. Just not sustainable anymore. And so I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Makes sense. No.

Jon Ogden [00:27:49] Okay, good. So the main realization was just this, maybe I would say fear that I didn't have a good framework anymore for living.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] So you kind of had that crisis of faith?

Jon Ogden [00:28:06] Yeah, I didn't know what to pass to my children.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Now, were you married at the time this all fell apart?

Jon Ogden [00:28:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] So this is after your temple marriage?

Jon Ogden [00:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] After you'd had two kids?

Jon Ogden [00:28:19] I had my first kid at that time.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Okay. Okay. All right. So, yeah, you went. You. So you went into the full faith crisis mode.

Jon Ogden [00:28:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] And what was that like for you? Did you. How'd you handle that?

Jon Ogden [00:28:36] I would say I'm still handling it.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Good answer.

Jon Ogden [00:28:42] I still participate in my ward. I really like my ward. Even though it's been seven years now since this happened.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] You're in Provo, right?

Jon Ogden [00:28:51] In Provo.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:28:53] I really like the people that I. That I attend church with. And I. At the same time, I'm also very cognizant that I think something is going to arise and is arising. That will be a good next step. I'm kind of letting it grow as it grows.

Telling His Wife and Writing the Book

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Okay, so did you let your wife know that you didn't believe anymore in the. In the traditional narrative?

Jon Ogden [00:29:26] So I would just tell her, like, hey, this is what I read. This is, you know, this is the thing I read in Rough Stone Rolling or this is the thing I read from Michael Quinn. Here are the pictures of Michael Quinn's book about the various magical artifacts that Joseph had, etc.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] And did. What can you tell us about her faith journey? If you want to share anything.

Jon Ogden [00:29:51] She was. She didn't have any reason to doubt what I was telling her. She's just looked at it and was like, yeah, that's crazy. That's. That's. That's surprising. You know, I didn't know those things. So we didn't argue about it or anything like that. Just kind of like, yeah, those. That seems like legitimate historian history.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] So it didn't jeopardize your marriage? It didn't, you know, any. Any of that stuff?

Jon Ogden [00:30:16] No. My wife is more invested in feminist issues, and I'm probably more invested in stuff around truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] Right.

Jon Ogden [00:30:26] So we approach Mormonism a little bit differently, but the foundation is pretty similar for both of us.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Okay, so you're kind of in the same place in terms of sort of progressive, liberal, non literal believing Mormons.

Jon Ogden [00:30:42] I would say unorthodox. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Okay, cool. Okay. So did you try and go to your bishop or did you have family members? Did you know how out are you to parents, siblings, church leaders, etc.

Jon Ogden [00:30:59] That was actually one of the motivations for writing the book, was wanting to articulate my position as fully as I could or in a full way in book format to kind of explain the nuances. Because I still don't feel comfortable saying like just leaving as I don't believe or, you know, any number of single sentences. I feel like I need space and room to articulate my position.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Okay. And so if you had to kind of state, if you had to kind of summarize church wise where you've landed, let's just say belief wise and whatever you want to share about orthopraxy or non orthopraxy, are you comfortable kind of just summarizing where you've landed?

Jon Ogden [00:31:50] I would say I'm still working through it. My top concern is being, I mean, one way to say is just to say a pioneer, to say like I can, I know that something is evolving, whether it's evolving within Mormonism itself or whether it's evolving outside of Mormonism. I believe that we're on the cusp of something that is shifting, largely driven by the technology of the Internet. But I think that we're really on the cusp of something different when it comes to religion. And my primary concern is to be part of growing, whatever this is.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] Okay, so there's something growing and I think from what I read from your book and from the show notes, that might be reform within Mormonism and that might be some other emerging religion. Is it true that you're open to either of those?

Jon Ogden [00:32:54] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] But right now you're still attending the church really quickly. How do you, are you comfortable sharing how you handle some of the more difficult things like, you know, interviews with your bishop callings, you know, using the priesthood? Like, how do you personally approach some of the more difficult aspects of being a non literal believer or unorthodox member?

Jon Ogden [00:33:30] I would say that it's still so fluid for me that I'd have a hard time pinning it down even in, even in a conversation like where I am, because it keeps, keeps changing so quickly. But I, I have a lot of love for Mormonism and there's so much that I want to see that I, that I still hold to, I hold dear within Mormonism, but it is increasingly difficult. One thing that just happened this past week in my elders quorum is they had this, they did this survey and they do it a lot. I really, really love this group of elders where they just survey the elders of the ward and say, like, what are your concerns? And so people are able to answer anonymously what they actually feel. And they asked. This last week was about the book. It was a lesson about the Book of Mormon. And the question was, why do you. Why do you sometimes not read the Book of Mormon? And one of the answers on the list was doubts about its authenticity. And I was the. I didn't have my phone, so it was kind of like a tech. You could text in your. Your answer. And so I couldn't. I didn't participate. But nobody selected that answer. And it was really crushing for me because, I don't know, I just assumed that more people in this group were, like, struggling with that same thing that I was struggling with. And to have zero people in this group say that they were struggling with the authenticity of the Book of Mormon was just this real feeling of loneliness. And, like, I don't know, it felt really. It hurt a lot because I guess I had just assumed that I wasn't the only one in this group who was dealing with that.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] I'm so sorry. So it sounds like that pain is still very present for you.

Jon Ogden [00:35:44] It is, yeah. So it's something that I'm just wrestling with day to day or week to week? Um, yeah. And I think we can talk more about that as we get into the book, because I have more to say about that.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] I think a natural reaction from someone witnessing someone else that they care about in pain is just to say, walk away, get away. Like, right, run away. Don't subject yourself to pain. What, for you, what are the things that have kept you hanging on?

Reasons for Staying Connected to Mormonism

Jon Ogden [00:36:17] So the main thing is that I like my tie to my heritage. I don't want just to sever that completely. I think that there's a lot of power in being tied to the past. Another is that I think there's also a lot of power of being involved in local community. And my word is all the houses directly around where I live. And so there's. For me, there's. I think having my kids involved, being involved in the hand of cards that I've been dealt is one benefit.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] So community and ties to the past are two major things that keep you going.

Jon Ogden [00:37:07] Yeah. And then I do feel this. So we've had just amazing Sunday school lessons. In my ward. We had a professor of Christian history who taught Christian history in a very amazing, like, frank way. And the marriage family prep class has been amazing. So we've just had some really, really good people in my ward that I really get spiritual nourishment. From they're approaching it in a very vulnerable way, unauthentic way. So it just happens to be that it's good.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] So good. So admirable people. And some spiritual nourishment is happening for you as well.

Jon Ogden [00:37:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Along with some pain. And maybe sometimes pain helps lead to spiritual edification. Is that, is that fair to say for you?

Jon Ogden [00:38:04] It does if I lean into it.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] All right, that sounds, that sounds like something Noah Rachetta would say. All right, so you currently are in the fight to kind of stay constructively engaged with the church. Let's just go to a couple quick questions or comments from our listeners because I think this has been really powerful. Let's see. Lisa writes, I get you. The emotions are raw and so real. Matt writes, I'm more worried about a constructive future than exact details about the past. It's a mess. But what now and what tomorrow? I think Matt's hitting on something that's really important for you. Is that true, John Ogden?

Jon Ogden [00:38:58] Yeah, that's my main question as well.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Yeah. What if, what if people were to say to you, well, John, you can get community elsewhere, you can plug into your past elsewhere, you can get spiritual nourishment elsewhere. What is it about, you know, what's kept you hanging on to Mormon specifically when. Mormonism specifically when there are other ways to supplement some of those things? What. What's kept you in specifically around those issues when you could go elsewhere?

Jon Ogden [00:39:34] I would say that I am open to going elsewhere. I have been involved in a lot of complementary efforts as well with the intention of seeing them grow and seeing if they can become sustainable enough that I can really develop a strong community, that it feels natural to just say, okay, you know, I've grown past Mormonism and I have to move on. So I'm not opposed to those things at all. I'm just kind of being very attentive to what is. What feels natural and not moving in a way that I feel like precludes growth.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Excellent. So you're open to going elsewhere, but right now this works for you?

Jon Ogden [00:40:32] Yeah, and I am going elsewhere as well.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Oh, you attend other churches or.

Jon Ogden [00:40:38] No, I've. So I've been involved, heavily involved with Lower Lights. It's run by Thomas McConkey.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] What is that?

Jon Ogden [00:40:47] It's a. Currently it's mainly a meditation group that we meet once a month in Salt Lake. We're meeting tomorrow, Wednesday, and we do meditation. Thomas has done workshops. I've done two six week workshops and two three day workshops and have been working to be more involved in that community. That community isn't antagonistic to any degree to Mormonism. In fact, I feel like it's highly complementary to Mormonism. But it's another way to approach spirituality that I've found immensely powerful.

John Dehlin [00:41:31] So it's not negative against, it's not antagonistic against. Does it. Is it a. Does it. Does it have any ties to the church? Is it like this is for Mormons that are looking for alternative spirituality, or is it just a. A secular thing that's framed as a supplement? How's it.

Jon Ogden [00:41:50] Yeah, it's done an amazing job. Thomas has done an amazing job of just bridging the differences, bridging the divide. If people who are Mormon can feel totally comfortable attending, people who are former Mormons can feel totally comfortable attending. And it's really. I mean, the name is Lower Lights Sangha. And so Lower Lights has this subtle tie to Mormonism because of the. The hymns.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] Be Burning Brightly, Beams Our Father's Mercy.

Jon Ogden [00:42:19] That's right. But then also tying in the religion of the east with sangha, which is the Sanskrit word for community. And so it's this integration of east and West, a really beautiful community that, again, is complementary to Mormonism, but also totally open to people who have never been Mormon or who are former Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] Okay, that sounds nice. Are some people kind of using it as a replacement for church or Mormonism, do you think?

Jon Ogden [00:42:55] I would think some people are. It's not on Sundays, and so people can go to church on Sunday and then come to Lower Lights as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] So have people ever talked about kind of growing it into a church? Has that ever been suggested or thought about?

Jon Ogden [00:43:15] I would say that the intention is to keep the meditation group going and then see how it grows. So right now it's just focused on bringing more and more people out to meditate and really learn that practice and see how it evolves.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Does it cost money?

Jon Ogden [00:43:39] It's $10 to come to the hour and a half of meditation each.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Each month?

Jon Ogden [00:43:45] Each month.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] So people pay 10 bucks a month to attend?

Jon Ogden [00:43:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] How many people attend on average, per month?

Jon Ogden [00:43:55] 100 to 150.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] Okay, so it's. That's significant. And then what are these workshops and retreats?

Jon Ogden [00:44:06] So the workshop is a group of. I think Thomas caps it around like 20 to 25 people. And. And you go through an hour and a half over six hour, an hour and a half weekly over six weeks and learn various ways to meditate. And really it's more about experiencing meditation. And the three day workshops are somewhat similar. And then I Also did a seven day silent meditation retreat that was seven days of total silence and meditation for eight hours a day.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] This is just. This is fascinating to me because I think about this stuff all the time. Is there ever. Do alarm bells ever go off for you or others kind of like, oh, my gosh, we're setting Thomas up as the new prophet, or, you know, anytime sort of a charismatic leader starts kind of leading people. You know, sometimes these patterns can reoccur where the same types of things that have confronted other religions can confront these types of groups. Does that. Do those alarm bells ever go off in your head that you've kind of traded, you know, in some ways traded one prophet for another kind of thing or one set of scripture for another, or a fear about following a new spiritual guru or leader?

Jon Ogden [00:45:32] Sure, yeah. I brought those concerns up a lot. And Thomas has just done a magnificent job. He has a really good framework for handling group dynamics. And it is a framework that has those concerns in place to work more as a community rather than, as. I don't know, the word that's coming to mind is dictatorship. Like a single. A single head. And so it's definitely something that the community is aware of and wary of as it grows.

Retreats, Workshops, and Community Costs

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Okay, what are the retreats and workshops cost?

Jon Ogden [00:46:21] I can't remember right now. It's the $125 for the six weeks.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Oh, cool. Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:46:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Fun. All right. And it sounds like people really love it and really find a lot of meaning in it.

Jon Ogden [00:46:35] Yeah, it has been really moving for me.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] Is it basically. Is it basically kind of Eastern mindfulness Buddhism kind of stuff like meditation and. And that sort of thing, or is it more than that? Are there teachings?

Jon Ogden [00:46:51] It's primarily about the experience. So it's not like, here are six things to learn and write them down. It's more about sitting there and Thomas guides meditations and really experiencing what arises.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Very cool. Wow. I'll have to come check it out. It sounds really compelling. So, okay, so that's one example of how you supplement your church experience. There's some comments. Matt writes bottom up, not top down. He loves it, so people are liking that. Couple calls for me to interview Thomas McConkie. Melissa writes, back to your attending the church, John. Are you ever concerned about your children being indoctrinated by attending church?

Jon Ogden [00:47:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] How do you deal with that?

Jon Ogden [00:47:49] Funny story is that a few months ago, my son and I were just on a walk and he started telling me the story of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon that he had learned at Church. And I said, after he got done talking about the golden plates and stuff like that, I said, hey, do you know that Joseph translated the book by looking at a stone and a hat? And I figured, like, if my son's young enough, he's six, he's just going to say, okay, dad. Yeah, that's interesting. But he stopped and he just said what? He said, are you kidding me? And then we both, like. I didn't know what to say after that, but we both just started laughing nervously because, like, I don't know how to react. I just expected him to say, sure, okay, but he thought it was a bit absurd. So, yeah, I think that there is some tension of, like, a thing that my son might learn at church and I might tell him something different. And I'm attuned to speaking out.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] So you will. You will speak out in church if you feel like something needs to be clarified or important point needs to be made?

Jon Ogden [00:49:14] Yeah. And certainly to my son, I'll speak out.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Got it. Let's see. Devin asks if fear is any part of your reason for staying in the church.

Jon Ogden [00:49:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] What are you scared of?

Jon Ogden [00:49:32] I've been surprised at how much of a conservative bent I have. Not in a political sense necessarily, but in the sense that I talk about this in the book, that conservatism yearns for order over chaos. And so this conservative impulse says it craves order and it's afraid of the unknown. And that's why it is opposed to the progressive paradigm, which is more okay with order, for progress, that they see as, like, helping the oppressed. But I definitely feel a lot of craving for order and for the benefits of order in my life, like the foundations. I'm very skeptical of moving quickly because I think that people can move quickly and damage relationships and damage their life. So it's been surprising to me, like, how much of a conservative bent I have and I hold in my personal life.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] Are you saying, since the question was about fear, are you saying that maybe you fear disorder in your life?

Jon Ogden [00:50:44] I fear disorder. I fear the unknown. I'm cautious about moving into the unknown before I'm certain that it's an upward movement. I see some people, from my perspective, who move really fast and then do things that they later regret. And I'm hesitant. I'm not saying that's the best way for everyone because sometimes my fear can be crippling and can be damaging. So I'm also aware of that. But I have been surprised how. How much my fear of the unknown does kind of hold me Back from rushing into things.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] Wow, thanks for being honest about that. Becca writes, I like the idea of being connected to the past, but I struggle to know how much that trumps the pain being felt by present day members. For example, the pain inflicted on women, people of color, and members of the LGBT community. How do you reconcile your commitment of your reputation and your time and whatever money you give to the church? How do you reconcile that with the pain, you know, that the church causes certain groups of people tough to reconcile?

Jon Ogden [00:52:06] I don't know if there's a simple answer. I think that I can be aware of the trade offs and that's part of belonging to any community, is that as soon as I move beyond myself to be part of a collective, I am experiencing trade offs. I'm giving something up to be part of that community. And that can be really painful because I don't get exactly what I want from the community. And so I can acknowledge that pain and try to be very cognizant of people who are feeling oppressed and reach out to them. It's on my mind a lot when

John Dehlin [00:52:46] somebody says, well, if you stay a member, then you're complicit in that harm. What's your response to that accusation of being complicit?

Jon Ogden [00:52:56] I say, yeah, I think that that is a trade off and it's something that is on my mind a lot. I have to weigh it against the benefits that I receive and try to come up with some net formula like on the whole, is this good for the world, considering these legitimate downsides. I have participated in Encircle, which is a group here in Provo that helps LGBT teens and given presentations there and really spelt this or really felt like very strong, had really strong spiritual experiences whenever I do that, just amazing, amazing people. And so try to be very cognizant of moving forward in those ways within my local community and acknowledging that being part of a group comes with trade offs. And that's painful.

Audience Questions on Pain, Anger, and Authenticity

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Rebecca asks, do you think there's a point where you might reach too much, where that which holds you to hold you no longer outweighs the pain you feel in trying to seek truth?

Jon Ogden [00:54:12] I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] You hope what?

Jon Ogden [00:54:15] I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] You hope?

Jon Ogden [00:54:17] I hope that eventually I say this is upward movement, that I come to a very clear realization that upward movement is occurring. Whether that means that the LDS Church evolves in a way that I think, yeah, we've evolved and we're better off than we were, or the local community moves complementary with or even independent of Mormonism in An upward way.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] So for you, you want to follow the growth. If the growth happens in the church, you want to follow it. If the church refuses to progress and grow, you would prefer to take a better path, even if it took you out of the church?

Jon Ogden [00:55:01] If it, yeah, if I could see clearly, this is a, this is a path that is growing. It's an upward movement. I want to, I want to move upward. I want to improve. And if an opportunity arises to do that, that I see that I feel like compelled to, that would be amazing.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] All right. Love the authenticity. Rebecca writes. Melissa writes, John, you're too nice. Didn't it make you angry when you discovered the church's narrative wasn't true? Have you ever experienced anger, John Ogden? And if so, how does it manifest?

Jon Ogden [00:55:36] I haven't experienced much anger and that might be something that's wrong with me. But I think of this, I think that when I was 19, fresh out on my mission, I went around and told people that I absolutely believed. And so I have empathy with that 19 year old. I can say, hey, that's me. That person who said those things is me. And so if I can have empathy with my past self, then certainly I can have empathy with people who are the same as my past self in that regard. In addition, some people might say, well, what about Joseph Smith? He certainly knew what he was doing. And I would say to that, that I'm not sure to the full extent that he knew what he. That he knew all that he was doing, considering that he grew up being taught that folk magic was real. That's his, that's his upbringing. Like, how much can I say if I had that same upbringing, would I have just followed along completely with what he said? If that was my worldview as a child, when I grew up, would I, as I said as a 19 year old, just go along with it completely? And so I have a lot of empathy for humans who can't see beyond their own perspective because I'm constantly not able to see beyond my own perspective. The same goes for people who are in authority in the church. I have a lot of empathy for people in those positions because their surroundings color their whole world. And I can't, I can't necessarily stand and judge them for not having the same perspective I do.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Beautiful. Well, it certainly is unique to have not experienced much anger, so that's notable. Melissa asks, what about disillusionment? Have you ever experienced feelings of being disillusioned or tired or exhausted?

Jon Ogden [00:57:48] Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Yeah. So Rick asks a really good question. For you, what would growth in the church look like? What would you like to see? How would you like to see the church change?

Jon Ogden [00:58:09] The list might be too long.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Give us the top 10.

Jon Ogden [00:58:13] Top 10. Wow. That's a lot too. So for me, it would be this. Just being more transparent about the historical evidence doesn't mean that people would necessarily leave Mormonism, because there are lots of people who know all these things, like Richard Bushman, etcetera, People like, in that same vein, who stay with Mormonism just being as honest as possible, and the church is moving in that direction. There are a number of things that are very difficult, though, in terms of LGBT community, women in the church, to make those, to get those voices that have been marginalized, to be not marginalized. Include people of color in that same category. Just an enormous change. I mean, I read yesterday that 1.1% of the Bible consists of words from women, and yet 50% of the population is woman. And so how do you change that in a way that you can give accurate representation when the scripture itself is so heavily slanted toward a male perspective? Very difficult. In addition, like, how do you get a church that is heavily slanted toward a male perspective in its church leadership to be. To also have accurate representation? Very difficult. I think it's a difficult road. But those are a few of the things that I would hope that we would say, yeah, we can move, we can move in that direction.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] Are you comfortable, for example, saying that you support female ordination or do you have a position on that?

Jon Ogden [01:00:08] I don't have a position on that.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Okay, how about, you know, acceptance of same sex marriages to church? I.

Jon Ogden [01:00:18] Let's see. I, like, I should, I should have a ready answer for you on this. I would hope for equality. So I would say yes. But yeah, when I'm meeting with Encircle, I guess I'm not necessarily thinking that far ahead. I'm just thinking like, how do we really accept the LGBT community fully, which I guess would include equality in that way. I apologize, I should have a ready made answer for you on those questions.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Usually when people hesitate on those answers, it's because they're fearful about, you know, their membership or their status with the church if they come out publicly in favor of things that the church opposes. So, you know, do you sometimes, you know, someone else asked, have you gotten any pushback from your book or from speaking out publicly? And, you know, and so that dovetails this question of do you live in fear that if you're too authentic, you could get punished by the church in Some way.

Jon Ogden [01:01:37] I don't live in much fear of that. I. So on Sunday night, there was a vigil in Provo related to the white supremacist movement in Virginia. And at that vigil, a bishop. He must be a former bishop. At this point, I don't. I'm not sure. But he came up to me and he told me that he'd read the book and that he recommended it to a few Sikh presidents and hoped that it would help them help people in his. In their congregations. And that's the kind of feedback I've had from the book. And so it surprises me that somebody would say that, but I think it's a really good sign that people in leadership positions are saying, hey, people are really struggling with their faith. What resources are available that we can help people to experience or to experience this in a healthy way?

John Dehlin [01:02:43] So you're finding your approach in your book specifically, is proving useful to some inside the church, especially leaders, to support others in their challenges.

Jon Ogden [01:02:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] And to tie that back to the question about you fearing for your status with the church.

Jon Ogden [01:03:02] Thank you. Yeah. And so I feel like I could be wrong about this, but I feel like we're at a point where we're sort of starting to have a much healthier view of unorthodoxy as a community. I mean, it is sometimes luck of the draw that you don't know if something is going to spring up all of a sudden and you'll get in trouble. But I feel like if we. I feel like we're starting to get to the point where we're more and more comfortable with it. Again, I could be wrong. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] I think you're right. I think people are no longer being excommunicated for things that just two or three years ago they would have excommunicated for. That's just a fact.

Jon Ogden [01:03:48] Yeah, it's my perspective. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:50] So hope. Hope springs eternal. Do you ever have ex Mormons or post Mormons tell you you need to leave, get mad, express anger that you've chosen to stay, tell you that you're not a legitimate Mormon, and if so, how do you react to that sort of anger? Or have you not experienced that?

Jon Ogden [01:04:11] I haven't experienced that.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] Cool.

Jon Ogden [01:04:14] Surprisingly, nobody. Nobody's attacked me for that.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] That's good. All right. Okay. Well, this sort of wraps up our first hour, which. Which ties directly to your story. Is there any. You know. And then we're gonna just immediately start part two, which is about the book. When Mormons. A Way to Save Relationships and Seek Quality of life. Anything you want to close with for people who just listened to part one about your story, anything you want to leave people with?

Closing Thoughts on Part One

Jon Ogden [01:04:47] I would want to leave people with this single idea that's very simple and even perhaps so vague that it's not helpful. But it's what's really in my heart. And what is in my heart is this idea of moving upward. And you could say, well, what does that mean? And that's part of what I get into in the book. But that is really what I'm concerned with most of all, is how do we as a Mormon and a former Mormon community evolve in a really healthy way so that we can look back and say, you know what? My life is better now than it was 10 years ago. I feel more full. I feel more life is more vibrant. I feel more excited about being here in Utah and belonging to this large community of people. And I feel like we've really helped those who are oppressed feel love and acceptance. That is really what is weighing on my mind above anything is just how do we move upward as a broad community? And so I'll just close this portion with that notion and hope that we can really deliberately seek that idea out.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] So upward and on you're onward, says John Ogden. Yep. All right, well, I want to thank everyone for joining us for part one of my interview with John Ogden. The book is When Mormons A Way to Save Relationships and Seek a Quality of Life, available on Amazon. Thanks to everyone who's given comments and questions so far. Don't bail. We are going to immediately start part two, but I just want to thank all our donors and supporters. Please like us on right now, go to Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and like us. Please go to Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page and give us a positive review. Please go to itunes and log in and give us a positive review there. And please support us with your tax deductible donations@mormonstories.org, because they keep us alive and you don't want to be a free rider. And your support goes directly to help people work through transitions. In the Open Stories foundation, we save marriages, we support people with mental health education, with secular spirituality, with retreats, with workshops. We're about saving families and helping people move upward and onward in their lives. And so thanks for everyone's support. Please continue to support us. John Ogden, thanks for joining us for part one. And don't go anywhere because we're going to start part two immediately. Thanks, John.

Jon Ogden [01:07:25] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode. Please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 786

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. All right, everyone, we want to welcome you back to Part two of our interview with John Ogden, author of When Mormons A Way to Save Relationships and Seek a Quality of life. It's August 22, 2017. We've had well over 70 people steadily on our Facebook live stream joining us. We want to thank everyone who's submitted their questions and comments so far. We definitely want people to continue their questions and comments in Part one, John, we talked about how your mission experience led to lots of items being put on your metaphorical shelf. Then you were able to emerge from your mission with your faith relatively intact, went to byu, got a bachelor's and a master's and then started. After your sister left the church and your friend, you started having your own faith crisis, red rough, stone rolling and other Mormon think and other sorts of things, and eventually went through a crisis yourself, got married, had kids, specifically struggled with the narrative, the LDS Church's narrative not being sustainable, which is your words. It's also Richard Bushman's words. He's a Stake patriarch, the foremost scholar on Joseph Smith, and he has been on record as saying that the church's narrative is not sustainable. We all know that's true. And so what you did is you decided, for now, to stay in the church. You still attend church. You still take your kids to church. You supplement with Thomas McConkie's the Lower Light Sangha, which we talked about last time. And you're willing to follow goodness wherever it is. You're hoping that the church, the LDS Church, will become better. There are signs that it's becoming better. There are signs that it's backtracking. But you've also said in your last interview that if the church doesn't get better and you find a better path, you'll follow it. How's that as a summary of the last hour?

Jon Ogden [00:02:46] Very well said.

Diving Into When Mormons Doubt

John Dehlin [00:02:47] All right, so now what we want to do is dive into the book. When Mormons Doubt, we're going to spend about an hour talking about the book. So where do you want to start with your major premises of the book. And we also want to give a shout out to Kimberly Anderson, who just joined us. Kim, we can't do a Mormon Stories live interview without you joining us, so welcome, Kimberly Anderson. Okay, John Ogden, take it away. Tell us about When Mormons Doubt.

Jon Ogden [00:03:15] So I ended the last section by talking about this impulse to move upward. And that was the main motivator for me writing the book. When I realized the dominant narrative that the LDS Church wasn't true, immediately my mind thought, well, what is a framework to live by? What should I hand on to my kids? And the book gets into a framework that comes from ancient philosophy and has been passed down through philosophers like Immanuel Kant. Bertrand Russell talked about it, Albert Einstein talked about it. And the framework centers on truth, beauty, and goodness. And it might seem at first glance that these are just three nice words, three fluffy words, truth, beauty, and goodness. But they. They actually kind of encompass the basic elements of what I would consider a quality life. And one way to think about it is Stephen Covey, in his book the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, talks about intellectual exercise, spiritual exercise, and social exercise. He also talks about physical exercise, which I don't include in the book, but that's a great thing as well. So intellectual exercise leads us closer to truth, spiritual exercise leads us closer to beauty, and social exercise leads us closer to goodness. And so these three things kind of are the very basic building blocks of what makes up a quality life. So the idea here is that if we can strip away the specifics and kind of get back to essence, maybe we can find a common ground for believers and non believers. And from that common ground, we can start getting back to specifics. But it helps to step way back to just say, are you invested in pursuing the truth? Are you invested in pursuing spirituality? Are you invested in pursuing goodness in your community? And if you can agree about the motives, then you can start building back up to specifics and really develop strong relationships, regardless of personal belief.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Okay, cool. So I just had an idea. What I'm going to do is I'm going to play the role of the doubting Mormon, okay. And you're going to counsel me, and I'm going to not really represent myself, although I'll add my own perspective or my perspective from when I went through my faith crisis. And in some ways, I'm still processing it, but I'm also going to invoke the tens of thousands of people that I've counseled with over the years as well. I would say, you know, there's always like the person who leaves the church because they want to drink beer or the person who leaves the church because they're offended or because they never really had a testimony. You know, that's not my audience. My audience, as you know, and you're one of them, is the tens of thousands of people who actually cared about truth so much that they investigated the church's truth claims and found them to not be true. And so check. I think most of my audience is into truth, maybe even on steroids in terms of goodness. I also think many, if not most of my audience are into goodness in the sense that they want to see good done and not harm. They felt like they experienced or witnessed abuse or damage or harm to people of color, to women, to LGBT individuals, to doubters, to intellectuals. They didn't see the ethics in the church that they were searching for. And so, yes, goodness was important to them. And no, they didn't see goodness in the church once they saw the church for what it was. And then, as far as beauty goes, it seems like you're using beauty and spirituality kind of interchangeably.

Jon Ogden [00:07:31] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] I think a lot of the people that I work with, like, value hikes through nature or good art or music or those sorts of things in terms of beauty, etc. I think there's a certain allergic quality to the word spirituality. I think they associate that with Mormonism. They associate that with metaphysics, with spirits and divine power and metaphysical things that makes them feel uncomfortable. And so let's say that that's the people that this interview is kind of targeting. Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:08:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] So. So to some extent, I would say we're there. So what are we missing or what? Tell us more. I think we're with you so far. Let's frame it that way.

Jon Ogden [00:08:25] So what are you missing?

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Or, like. Yeah, like. Or let's just talk more about it. So what? Help us more along the lines of how your book can help us.

Jon Ogden [00:08:35] Sure. So I think that many people are legitimately moving in this direction, and that's tremendous. The hope is that we can move in this direction as a collective, and that requires a lot of work to really move upward together, whether it's Mormons and former Mormons or just former Mormons or just Mormons, whatever, whoever you are, to, like, work together to move toward truth, beauty, and goodness. I had a piece in the Salt Lake Tribune about sad heaven and this concept.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] What's that? Heaven? Yeah, what's that? Heaven.

Jon Ogden [00:09:14] Sad heaven is this concept that Mormons will say, like, no empty chairs they'll say, we don't want anybody in our family to not make it to heaven because if there were an empty chair, if somebody didn't make it to heaven, then it would be tragic. And this is kind of a weird sentiment to me because they would say, well, heaven is a state of pure happiness. Like, well, what if someone who you love tremendously isn't in heaven? It's not a state of pure happiness. And so there's this concept of Mormons who are very sad when somebody leaves the faith because they say, oh, it's lost. You know, now I'll never be together with them in the afterlife. And they experience tremendous sadness now. And this idea of truth, beauty, and goodness is saying, well, if somebody is very deliberately pursuing truth, beauty, and goodness in this life, and they're really nurturing their relationships in this life, then can we celebrate that and can that be sufficient and so that we don't have to worry so much about sad heaven, about getting to heaven and just being miserable because somebody you love isn't there? Can we just focus on pursuing these ideals now and can that sufficiently bridge the differences? So that's one additional way to think about it.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Katie writes, sad Heaven was an eye opener. I'm so happy I no longer believe in that kind of heaven. So you've got. You got at least one. You've got at least two supporters there. Okay, so let me just restate what I hear so far is that this book let's. It sounds like what you're saying is, let's all get on the same page, whether you're a non Mormon, an ex Mormon, a believing Mormon, orthodox, or not. This book is sort of naming what you think the essence is, kind of what the goals should be. And by naming it, then we can all sort of start orienting ourselves in the right direction.

Jon Ogden [00:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] And so this book, I was. I should have just said, who's this book for? But it sounds like what you're saying is it's for everyone. It's for. It's for all sorts of Mormons, including ex Mormons and post Mormons.

Jon Ogden [00:11:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] And just basically saying, a starter's manual for kind of living that higher life.

Jon Ogden [00:11:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Yep. Is that okay? Is that okay? Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:11:41] Really well said.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] All right, good. Okay, keep going.

Truth, Beauty, and Goodness as a Framework

Jon Ogden [00:11:44] Another angle for the book is that it is very directly working against a culture of just kind of vapid consumerism. Because I think that sometimes what can happen is we can lose our framework for life and we just fall back to consumerist culture and we kind of lose Our mooring. We don't have an ultimate purpose. We don't know what life is about. And so we kind of default to consumerist culture. I should just say I felt that temptation in my life just to kind of veg out. And so the framework of truth, beauty and goodness is pretty directly working against that as well, saying, hey, we might not know all the answers of the universe, but we know that as we pursue these ideals, we're moving closer to something and we're moving truth, beauty and goodness. They're called the transcendentals in philosophy because they transcend all else. They're worth pursuing in and of themselves. It's worth pursuing truth for truth's sake. It's worth pursuing beauty for beauty's sake. It's worth pursuing goodness for goodness's sake. And so again is getting at the essence. It's a way to frame your life that isn't. That is moving very directly against the default culture.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Yeah. Two quick thoughts come to mind. One is that it's sort of bold to start with. Such basic and some would say obvious sort of assertions.

Jon Ogden [00:13:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:16] But you acknowledge that both in these comments and in the book. Because obviously who doesn't want truth, beauty and goodness? But at the same time, I'm a firm believer in knowing what your values are. Because if you don't have values, you don't have motivation and you don't have direction. And it just sounds like you're laying out three core values that everyone needs to get on the same page about. So that's my first reaction. Second reaction is it sounds like you're basically giving a loving kick in the booty to post Mormons to say, hey guys, it's not like just leaving the church and throwing off religion beliefs leads to joy and well being. Forget that life has potentially a higher purpose. And maybe you've seen too many and you referred to this last episode. Maybe you've seen a bit too much pain and sadness or lower level living in post Mormonism. Are you even comfortable embracing that or am I putting words in your mouth?

Jon Ogden [00:14:17] I am. I'm glad that you said that because that is definitely a motivator for, for the book as well. I've seen people who I admire tremendously in that community, so I should, I should bookmark that. Absolutely. That I look in awe of the way that they're living their lives. I've also seen people who just rush really quickly into an antagonism toward Mormonism. And their framework seems to be implicitly that they're going to Live the opposite of Mormonism, whatever Mormonism says, they're going to do the inverse kind of, in my opinion, unthinkingly. I've seen a few instances of that. And so truth, beauty and goodness is also, as you eloquently put it, like, reacting against that impulse and saying, hey, let's be very deliberate in the values that we're pursuing so that we can have upward movement.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] And we're just at the beginning. But know so many post Mormons that are like, I'm fine. You don't need to worry about me. Sure, I've got good joy in my life and happiness, and I don't need another religion, another set of doctrine, another prophet, like, get out of my face. I know how to. I'm the master of my own ship, you know, I don't need no stinking, you know, whatever someone else has to say. How do you get someone interested in this conversation? If maybe they got some trauma from their religion experiences and they're just not in the mood to hear anything else

Jon Ogden [00:15:49] from anybody, One impulse would be to believe them, to say, hey, you are fine. Right? And so they could. They could absolutely be fine. Though I think that by talking about these things, they. Every time that I talk about truth, beauty, and goodness, I recognize how I'm falling short in my life. So like you said, they're obvious. It's very obvious framework, but I need constant reminding. Like just the notion that I need to pursue spirituality or peak experience or whatever you, whatever you want to call spirituality, I need to deliberately pursue, that wakes me up and says, hey, John, you need to. You need to be more deliberate in your life, not just live passively. And so that's where I find the value is just in the reminder over and over again of living a deliberate life. So they might be fine. It might also help them to be reminded of these values.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] Okay, all right, good. So let's dive in. So take us to the next level of the book.

Jon Ogden [00:17:01] So I would perhaps start by saying by talking about these as attitudes and the attitude that leads to truth is the attitude that you could be completely wrong. And if you have that attitude and you really hold on to the attitude, then you're more likely to get closer to truth. That's a difficult thing to do because it means that you pretty much admit that you're stupid in many ways. The ego resists that. The ego doesn't want to say, like, I don't know things, right? And so we dig in our heels and we don't move toward truth in that Way the attitude toward beauty is an acceptance that perhaps living mindlessly isn't what life is about, that there's some higher form of. Again, spirituality. What word do you suggest, just out of curiosity, for spirituality? Because I agree with your critique of. Of that word for certain audiences, I

John Dehlin [00:18:08] don't have a good replacement. That's a single word. I. But I'm always quick to define spirituality as just a connect. Connection with something larger than yourself.

Jon Ogden [00:18:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] So connection, I think. I think connection. Yep. Yeah. Or meaning or purpose are some alternative. Yeah, but it's, It's. Yeah, it's hard to find the right word sometimes.

Jon Ogden [00:18:31] Yeah, it is, because it's. It's the ineffable. It's something that you can't put into words because it's a. An experience that just kind of transcends.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Transcendence is a good word.

Jon Ogden [00:18:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Yeah, that's a good word. Yeah.

Jon Ogden [00:18:47] So to be deliberate in pursuing that is if we live our lives with that attitude, then that leads us to certain things like getting off Netflix all the time and getting into face to face communication or camping or hymns or, you know, any number of things where we have felt that connection and transcendence in our past. To really nurture those, even if we disagree about belief, to nurture those.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:19:20] So. And then goodness would be this idea of really actively seeking that which alleviates suffering in the lives of others. Being very deliberate about that, saying, I'm going to see people who are suffering and live my life to alleviate their suffering. So again, obvious things, but one of the benefits of Mormonism, and going back to our previous conversation, one of the benefits that I, that I've seen from Mormonism is that it's this weekly reminder like, hey, remember, remember these things, these basic things that you know intellectually, but you need to fully embody in your lived experience. And so this is another purpose of truth, beauty and goodness is just to be reminded the obvious and change your life accordingly.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Very good. Yeah. I think that's one of the powerful things about active religious participation. It's that it's just. It can serve as this constant reminder that keeps us focused on the. On the important goals.

Jon Ogden [00:20:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] So that's what you're doing. Okay, so let's dive a little bit deeper.

Jon Ogden [00:20:39] Okay, let me think. So what we can. Maybe we can talk about an example.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] Yeah, let's do it.

Jon Ogden [00:20:50] Okay. Got some water. So let's say, for instance, that somebody is. Let's say that there's a couple and the husband is. Stumbles on to things about the truth claims. They are just preparing for a lesson one Sunday, and they start reading about Joseph Smith's papyri Book of Abraham. They read about Joseph Smith's multiple wives, and they start going down that rabbit hole. And then they talk to their spouse. And the spouse is extremely resistant to this idea. Let's say it's a man who discovers these things and his wife is resistant just for the sake of the story. And then what ends up happening is that they keep butting heads over and over and over. The husband brings it up, and the spouse says, no, I don't want to hear those things. And divorce starts floating in the air, and things are just really, really tense. One way that I think that truth, beauty, and goodness can help is that it calls attention to the fact that truth isn't the only ideal. And so if somebody's fixated on the truth only, they might not be able to step outside of that perspective and say, like, why does my spouse. Why is my spouse so resistant? And if they can step outside of that perspective, then they could say, hey, actually, my spouse is deliberately nurturing beauty through the. Through the LDS Church, and she's deliberately nurturing goodness. And so she is. When she resists, it's largely because she's. She's getting real benefits, and she feels that I'm attacking or wanting to get rid of those benefits, to strip those away. And so that's where the defense comes up. And I have all the empathy in the world for somebody who wants to defend beauty and goodness, because I don't think truth is the only ideal worth pursuing. And so by calling attention to these three ideals and putting them on an equal level, you can start to have empathy for people who see the world a little differently, who are pursuing a different ideal than you might be pursuing primarily. And at that point, the spouse can then say, okay, maybe I can back off of bringing the truth claims every single Sunday when we get home from church and making a big stink about how the. How church ignored this or that truth claim, getting in a fight with my spouse over and over again week after week, maybe I can just tap the brake on that perspective, start nurturing ways that my spouse and I can really nurture beauty and goodness together, perhaps even apart from Mormonism. And where can we really develop out the common ground in these two areas? And then maybe in a few months, once I've really built this trust that I, too, value beauty and goodness tremendously, we can circle back to a truth claim or two and start getting back into it. And I can sense into whether it's right or not and move accordingly. But I don't have to only be fixated on. Truth is the only ideal to pursue in life.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Yeah. And you're reminding me of a part in the book that I read. There's actually three points that come to mind as I hear you talk. You, you're basically saying there's more than just one virtue. So oftentimes the intellectual, oftentimes male, but not always male questioning or post Mormons. It's like truth is all that matters. Truth is all that matters. Truth, truth, truth, church isn't true, therefore burn it down. And so the first thing you're doing is you're reminding us that truth isn't the only value. That beauty or spirituality or connection and goodness, things to balance. And even in areas where there isn't perfect or whole truth, there's some utility, there's some function, there's some benefit from other perspectives. So that's one. You're reminding us that there's more than just one value. The second thing you're reminding us is that sometimes there's a risk at focusing on one value to the exclusion of others. And there's this part in the book where you sort of explain, you go through each dyad and you talk about what's lacking. Right. So like I don't know if you remember it, but like truth about beauty or go. Do you know where that is in the book? Because I think that's. Let's go through those really quick.

Jon Ogden [00:25:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] What page talks about that?

Jon Ogden [00:25:56] It is.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Oh, here it is. I found it. So on page seven, I'll read through each one. The pursuit of truth without beauty makes us cynical, right?

Jon Ogden [00:26:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] So if it's truth or truth, but beauty and goodness doesn't matter. We're basically. You're saying we can just become cynical, analytical and almost sometimes just calloused.

Jon Ogden [00:26:26] Yeah. Life loses all its color.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Right. Then you say the pursuit of truth about goodness makes us lonely. What is it? What do you mean by that?

Jon Ogden [00:26:35] So it's saying. So it'd be somebody who perhaps in church would bring up every single time that the teacher gets things wrong and says, actually, did you know that this is the thing? This is the way it really happened? Pretty soon they're gonna carve out, they're gonna be the only person who is really. They're gonna lose friendship. So I wouldn't say that they should never bring up those issues because you do.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] You said you do, right?

Jon Ogden [00:27:03] Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. You should, you should bring up those issues. But you should be aware of the fact that you're in context with a community and that if you fixate on the truth claims over and over and over and over, then you could become a community of one. And that leads to loneliness. So you need to give a little bit in those times.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] And honestly, there are Mormons that just don't care about the truth claims. They're there for other reasons. Either they just don't want to think about it, or they choose not to, or they know about the problems, but they don't care. The problems don't eclipse the goodness and the beauty that they see in it.

Jon Ogden [00:27:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] You say the pursuit of beauty without truth makes us gullible. So there, there you're arguing for truth, right?

Jon Ogden [00:27:53] Absolutely. So this is what I think of, like Jim Jones. When you read about how he started his cult that eventually drank the Kool Aid and committed mass suicide, they. It's interesting to read the followers of Jim's Jones because they say this community was so beautiful. I felt so much spirituality in this community and I was swept up by it. I felt so happy to be here. And so they were fixated on beauty, but they didn't allow themselves to check with their intellect. Say, is this really legitimate? And so we can get swept up in the charisma so much and not pay attention to truth claims that we just become gullible and it leads us to great harm when we do that.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Now, doesn't that potentially condemn the LDS Church a little bit? If you're saying the truth claims aren't what they. What they necessarily state to be, you're just. It sounds like you're saying, just be aware. As long as you are aware, then you can guard against the problems. Is that what you're saying?

Jon Ogden [00:29:04] I think that there are instances where it could incriminate the LDS Church and all churches. When there's charisma and you're told, don't pay attention to historical historicity, all that you have to do is follow your heart. Right. Just pay attention to what you feel inside and then pursue that. Don't question it. That is when people start resisting the history. Historical claims. Reading. Reading about the historical claims, I should say. And that I think can be really damaging. So, yeah, all right.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] The pursuit of beauty without goodness makes us selfish. What do you mean by that?

Jon Ogden [00:29:54] I think that that is talking about when I think this is more rare than the others, but it's when somebody just fixates on the spirituality in church. Like they really love singing hymns and they love participating in Ways that help them individually. But when it comes down to the pragmatic aspects of Mormonism, like, here's a volunteer list to help this person in the ward rake their yard. They step out, they're like, no, I'm not going to do that. And so that's what that is referring to.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] Okay. So don't be selfish. Pursue beauty not just for own self gratification, but for the benefit of others as well. You say the pursuit of goodness without beauty is exhausting.

Jon Ogden [00:30:49] Right. So that's the checklist, the Mormon checklist. Really, like, okay, I have to do my duty, have to check all these boxes off, but you're not doing it from the place of real spiritual strength.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Got it.

Jon Ogden [00:31:04] So it's exhausting.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] Yeah. And beauty, just the arts can really revitalize us, right?

Jon Ogden [00:31:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Spirituality, connection, the divine, whatever. All right. Finally, the pursuit of goodness without truth is misdirected.

Jon Ogden [00:31:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Okay, tell us what you mean by that.

Jon Ogden [00:31:25] So in the example I give is when Mormons wanted to be good according to their definition of goodness, and they believed like this myth about African Americans or blacks, and they said like they're, they have the curse of Cain. And so they wanted to be good according to how they would define goodness, but they didn't know the truth about melanin and why skin colors are different. And so it caused harm. Even though they were trying to be good, the fact that they didn't pay attention to truth was really damaging other people.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] Got it. Okay. So, yeah, it seems like that was a really nice way to help us understand how to keep them in balance. And then it sounds like your final point as you were talking about this fictitious couple. You're basically saying the extent to which we're flexible, well, the extent to which we keep a balance, our eyes on all three of these virtues or values, we can develop enough flexibility to not kind of throw our life in shambles. And I've seen that somebody, somebody decides it's not true, so they have to burn it all down. And their spouse is an orthodox believer, and before you know it, they're pounding everything with the hammer of truth and they're smashing their relationships, burning bridges and destroying everything around them. And you're basically saying if you could have more of a balance, see the good, see the beauty, then you can buy yourself time and flexibility to nurture and grow and morph the relationships in a way that maybe won't cause so much collateral damage. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Jon Ogden [00:33:24] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] All right, that's good. So take us to the next. Take us to the next level. John Ogden.

When Beauty and Truth Come Apart

Jon Ogden [00:33:32] So a number of other things that I think are important about the book are like the idea that beauty isn't truth. And so in many religions across the world, there is this argument that if you've had a spiritual experience, then it's proof that your church is true, that your church is the true church. And by separating beauty from truth, in a sense, you can say, hey, not necessarily. You could have a really profound spiritual experience, but note that a Muslim has a really profound spiritual experience, a Catholic has a profound spiritual experience, and they come to conclusions that directly contradict your truth claims through that spiritual experience. And so by separating beauty from truth, we can say, hey, there's actually a line here where you can have a really profound transcendent experience, and you might misinterpret it to match your prior view as evidence of your prior view. So that's another helpful thing. Reason for splitting these into three is that you can say, for instance, in the first part of our conversation, I talked about the seminary video where it showed Joseph Smith's martyrdom, And I felt like this profound, transcendent experience, and it was really pivotal for my testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet. But the video didn't show Joseph Smith was with a pistol, shooting people, shooting at people. And so it separates the spiritual experience from the interpretation in this case, meaning Joseph didn't have a pistol, when in fact, the historical evidence is he did. So just drawing that distinction, I think, can be helpful in navigating these problems as well.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] And that sounds like it's a message mostly for orthodox Mormons just to say, you don't have a monopoly on spiritual experiences or transformative experiences or truth, so show some respect to other people's experiences as well.

Jon Ogden [00:35:52] That's it. And then it's also saying for people who no longer believe that we should very deliberately pursue beauty, just not be so tied up in interpreting what it means. Exactly. So if that makes sense, like, beauty is worth pursuing. Absolutely. And we should still do that with our friends and family.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Got it. And so you're saying atheists can pursue spirituality as well.

Jon Ogden [00:36:25] Right. And in the book, I show examples from atheists who have had transcendent experiences and remained atheists afterwards, but they've had these really amazing, moving experiences that transform them for the better. It doesn't have anything to do with belief.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] All right, that's good. What's next?

Ken Wilber, Myth, and the Future of Mormon Thinking

Jon Ogden [00:36:51] Maybe I can just pull back for a bit and talk about kind of where I hope what I Hope to see. So after writing this, I discovered an author named Ken Wilber. And Ken Wilber writes about truth, beauty, and goodness. And he talks about it. He talks about it from different perspectives. He uses three pronouns, I, we, and it. And I would be the perspective of beauty, where you have a personal spiritual experience. We would be goodness, and it would be truth. And so these are, he says, three different perspectives that people view the world. And that was really compelling to me to see, in addition, because it was compelling, because it showed me, oh, I'm not the only one thinking about this. This is something else. And he wrote a book just recently called the Religion of Tomorrow, where he uses this framework to kind of set up what a future religion might look like, even if it is still. Even if Mormonism still exists or Buddhism or whatever, how it could implement this framework. In addition, I've been reading Sapiens and Homo Deus by Yuval Harari, and he talks about objective reality, subjective reality, and intersubjective reality. Objective reality would be truth, subjective reality would be beauty, and intersubjective reality would be goodness. And he kind of goes along the same framework of talking about how this is a framework that can help us kind of transcend traditional religion and evolve it, even if it is still called Mormonism, evolve it into the next phase.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] All right, so you're basically excited that you're seeing convergence of other great thinkers finding value in this triad as well.

Jon Ogden [00:38:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Okay. All right.

Jon Ogden [00:38:53] And then maybe just to talk about the myth, because I know that you've read Yuval Harari's Sapiens recently, and I'm really compelled by this idea of myth, and I see this as possibly being a way toward kind of the foundational aspects of getting toward a new myth. 21st century myth.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah, yeah. Myth is tricky because on the one hand, you know, we have the simplistic view of myth, which is that they're stories that are true, but that have moral value, like Santa Claus or Paul Bunyan or Babe the Big Blue Ox or whatever. But then we've had myths interwoven with having felt betrayed or lied to. And so I think there are a lot of people who sort of have traumatic reactions when we talk about myth. So talk about why you think myth still has a place for post Mormons or doubting Mormons or questioning Mormons.

Jon Ogden [00:40:05] Sure. One second. I'm just getting a small interruption. I'll be back in three seconds.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Okay, so while we're waiting for John, we'll check in with our listeners. I see Jeralee Henderson Renshaw has joined us. Hey, Jeralee. We have about 41 people that show live.

Jon Ogden [00:40:24] Apologies for that.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] No problem.

Jon Ogden [00:40:27] Mike is demanding.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] Just made a shout out to Jeralee who's joined us.

Jon Ogden [00:40:31] Oh, great. She's terrific.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yeah. Okay. No, go ahead. Talk about myth and what role it might play.

Jon Ogden [00:40:40] So I really feel like Harari is on to something when he's talking about myth. And there's this tremendous power in myth making. And I almost hesitate to use the word myth because it makes it seems trivial, but I don't think it's trivial at all. I think it's foundational to the human experience. And Harari talks about how myth is the reason storytelling is perhaps a better word. Storytelling is the reason that Homo sapiens are different than any other animal that we have been able to. That through our cognitive revolution we've been able to develop storytelling and it enables us to function in a community in a very flexible way. And this has led to newer and newer technologies and more understanding about the world. And this is what separates us from everything else. And so it's absolutely not trivial. It's critical to our well being is to really hold on to myth and celebrate myth or storytelling. And I think that this is a major part of the project that I am engaged in is to tell new stories that can transcend and include, which is a phrase that Ken Wilber uses a lot to transcend and include Mormonism and kind of bring the Mormon and post Mormon community together in a way that creates something entirely new or maybe an evolution of something. But this is definitely a strong motivator for me personally.

Myths That Can Unite Mormons and Non-Mormons

John Dehlin [00:42:22] So what are some examples of some myths that could appeal to both Mormons and non Mormons?

Jon Ogden [00:42:26] One that I find personally compelling is transhumanism. And this is the idea that humanity will evolve through. It might be through technology and genetics to a point where we are so much different than current Homo sapiens, as Homo sapiens are to Neanderthals, that we'll become more like a perfected being. That's what Harari says in the book Homo Deus, which means God man is this idea of humanity evolving and to use the framework of truth, beauty and goodness, drawing closer to truth, beauty and goodness, even though we don't know exactly where that will lead us. We have a purpose. And the purpose is to get closer to that, to perfection. And so it fits with Mormonism in the sense that Mormons believe that we can become like God. But it also works for a secular viewpoint in that it doesn't have to be a literal divine being, but a more perfected being. And so this is. This is the myth that Harari brings up along with what he calls data ism. But I see it as a myth that can really unify disparate belief systems.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] How is that a myth?

Jon Ogden [00:44:00] Well, because it's not a reality. It's saying that there's a purpose for humans, and we don't know exactly what the purpose is, but we know approximately how to get there. And we are getting there as evolution unfolds and as we lean into that, we can move it along to get us closer to a perfected being.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Beautiful. Let me just ask you. There have been some attempts to form, and I don't know if you'll think this is a segue. Well, let me just start by saying this. You know, one of the roles of a church is that somebody's speaking from the pulpit on Sunday. There are these rituals that remind us of these myths or these teachings. There's Sunday school. You know, there's priesthood or Relief Society where you're. You're gaining instruction. There's a curriculum, et cetera. And that's. You know, I often think about how powerful it would have been if all that time in seminary, all that time in Sunday school, all that time in priesthood, all those education courses at byu, all that time I was meditating, taking the sacrament. And if I had actually been learning and absorbing things that were useful in the sense of helpful to becoming a better person, not just not smoking and drinking, that was easy for me to do. But I feel like I didn't advance as a human within Mormonism. Like, I've tried. Like I've had success advancing since. Not saying I'm great, but focusing on Eckhart Tolle and secular Buddhism and other forms of spirituality and psychology and principles of mental health and healthy marriage and emotional intimacy, all these things that I've learned from secular people like Shefali Saberry and John Gottman and again, Nora Shetta and others, I've grown immensely. But I know that there's a lot of people that maybe aren't exposed to those things or aren't interested. And so this idea that you talked about with Lorelaitsanga that others have tried with Oasis, you know, I think you get a sense, and I think I get a sense too, that without religion, and this was the basic premise of. Oh, my gosh. Of the book the Course of Love and Religion for Atheists. What's his name?

Jon Ogden [00:46:53] I'm just basically saying Alain Dubuque.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Alain Dubuque his basic premise was in his TED talk, Atheism 2.0. You know, we shouldn't be criticizing religion. We should be taking the pages out of their playbook and as secular people, implementing them. So this is where Sunday assembly and Oasis come from. It's these secular movements to try and have Sunday school again, have sermons, have hymns, but that are teaching these myths or principles that you're talking about. And that's a long setup to have this discussion. I know that you were at the original OASIS meeting that we held in Provo where we tried to kick off an Oasis there. How are you finding things like the OASIS movement? Is it reaching this need? Is it missing something for you? And can you envision, let's just say the LDS Church is gonna stay another 30, 40, 50 years kind of where it is, and it doesn't move fast enough. What do you envision as an alternative to Mormonism that's viable for post Mormons and secular people? Do you even have a vision? And if so, will you paint it for us?

A Vision for Progressive Mormon Community

Jon Ogden [00:48:14] Yeah, I do have a vision. I can't say that it's the only vision that will work. And I might be wrong about this. I think that what comes next is going to need to transcend and include Mormonism and other religions. By this, I mean that we need to tie ourselves to the past and we need to have a vision for the future. And I think OASIS does a really good job of focusing on how to do these things Now. I long for ties to the wisdom traditions of all cultures, to have some sort of canon that can tie us back to the best of these wisdom traditions. And that's the project I'm actually working on right now, is a compilation of the best of wisdom traditions.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] So kind of like scripture, New Age scripture. Is that what you think of it?

Jon Ogden [00:49:11] I'm hesitant about New Age, but it's a compilation of the most beautiful passages from the world's wisdom traditions so that there is some tie back to humanity's past so we can see we're coming from somewhere and we have this connection to what people said thousands of years ago. So that's one aspect of it. But then also this vision for where we're going and the vision for where we're going. One vision that I like is this concept of transhumanism, or call it spiritual evolution, or call it what you will, but this very deliberate sense that we're moving toward something and we have an ultimate purpose. So, like this grandness, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] So it does. And I understand Your argument that you think there's a value in being tied to our past. This reminds me of something I learned in my American Heritage class at byu. They basically argued that the problem with the French Revolution is in any secular movement is they chop down the tree. And because they chop down the tree, you kill the vitality that then something new can grow from. I don't totally understand or agree with it, but that seemed to be the argument that Ralph Hancock and Frank Fox and others were advancing at the time.

Jon Ogden [00:50:55] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] And you know, and they talked about how the French Revolution cannibalized itself. Right. You basically say no monarchy and let's cut their heads off because there's no goodness or truth or value to be found in this old regime. But then, well, what are you basing your new regime on? And what you had were the French revolutionaries chopping all each other's heads off. And at some point it was just chaos. And I sense that you're coming from a similar angle saying let's not just be purely secular science minded now. Let's bring with us the rich tradition and heritage and then build on it and advance it and grow it. And that sounds like you're basically saying that that's something that you see as a weakness, either a weakness in Oasis or Sunday assembly, or you're just saying it's a preference for you, that for you, you want to bring that along. Is that just because you like that stuff or because you think ultimately a movement or an organization will be more successful if it brings in its, its heritage and its roots?

Jon Ogden [00:52:12] I think both.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:52:14] I think that the eldest church and other churches aren't successful just because they meet together every week. They're successful because they tap into this grandness of like, I am an individual in context with a grand history of individuals, and I'm moving toward something grand. It's this mythos that Harari talks about that's so essential to a really vibrant community. And it sustains people through times that are. That they might doubt in the community. They're sustained by the grandness of the myth or the story that they're part of.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] In some sense. I kind of feel like you're. And again, this isn't about critiquing Oasis or Sunday Assembly. However, I'm thinking all the time, how do we make things like this really explode? And what I hear you saying is if you're just purely scientific and purely secular, you're lacking what you call in the book beauty. You're lacking this majesty, this awe. And that's What Sunday assembly tries to do when they're dancing around in the aisles. Passionate sermons. It sounds like you're saying we can't get too heady, that any movement that's going to have wings needs to balance, like you say in your book, truth, beauty and goodness. And another way to say that is we can't just rely on our cerebral frontal cortex. As humans, we need to tap into the deep emotion and the passion and. And even the things that have been manipulated in the past to many people's chagrin. You're saying we need that as part of what we're doing. And so you want a Sunday or a community experience, even if it's secular, that's not too heady. That's also passionate and emotional and deeply uplifting.

Jon Ogden [00:54:35] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Have you tried to do that at Oasis? Have you seen that? Tried at Oasis?

Jon Ogden [00:54:44] Yeah. Yeah. I've had some really powerful experiences at Oasis, and I really love that community.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] I.

Jon Ogden [00:54:53] I've had a change in schedule, and it's made it harder for me to get there regularly, but I really like it, and I really loved. I've talked at multiple Oasis groups, and the Salt Lake City one was amazing. So many. So many good people in that community. I think you. You articulated it really well. And so I'll just repeat, like, this idea that I think that you can't just replace Mormonism with a community that meets every week. That's not sufficient to capture what. What Mormonism is fully doing, because it's. It's. Mormonism and other religions are tapping into something way bigger than just me and just being kind. It's. It's reaching for, like, a really grand vision. And so that's where I'm getting to Harari and other writers like Ken Wilber, who are talking about the religion of tomorrow and meaning that we have these ties to the past and this vision of the future, in addition to what these principles that we live by now.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Do we need to call it religion? Is it important for you? Do you think it's going to be most successful if we call it religion?

Jon Ogden [00:56:17] No, Harari does. And I'm kind of uncomfortable with the way he uses the term in his book Homo Deus, because he says that things like communism and Nazism are religion, secularism.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] Man, he hates humanism. I can't believe how harsh he was on humanism. It made me want to punch him. Is he religious? Is he Jewish or is he religious? I know he lives in Israel. That's why I asked if he's Jewish.

Jon Ogden [00:56:41] He's certainly Not a traditional believer.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Yeah. But he's super hard on humanism.

Jon Ogden [00:56:46] He is really hard on humanism. Surprising. Throughout. Throughout Homo Deus. I know that he.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] I haven't read Homo Deus. I'm just talking about sapiens.

Jon Ogden [00:56:54] Yeah. Oh, yeah, he is. And he continues that through Homo Deus. He does meditate for two months a year. So he has that aspect in his life.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Okay.

Jon Ogden [00:57:04] But. Yeah. Surprising.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] So. Okay, so you're saying from us. I mean, because I'm. I just. This is all I think about and.

Jon Ogden [00:57:17] Same.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] You know, I mean, that's why I think, you know, we've been talking about an interview with you for some time, but. So it matters to me. It matters if Oasis. You know, first of all, we know that Oasis has done amazing things. And, you know, Salt Lake Oasis is thriving. Cache Valley Oasis is still hanging in there. Provo, you know, Oasis, Utah Valley, Oasis is still hanging in there. We know Kansas City and Houston. Oasis is going super strong. But you're not. You, John Ogden, who cares about this as much as any Mormon I know is not like, fulling your full force, throwing your full weight of support into Oasis. You said that it's partly because of schedule conflicts. I also sense that maybe it's partly because you're thinking Lower Light Sangha may be onto something more compelling for you than maybe the Oasis model. Is that fair to say?

Jon Ogden [00:58:17] That's fair.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] Okay. What is it. What is it about Lower Light Sangha that's getting you closer or that you're feeling more drawn to or that you think is a more successful model?

Jon Ogden [00:58:31] I can only speak personally, but I have had really profound, transcendent experiences at Lower Light Sangha. And participating in that community, it's really, like, opened up something that had been closed for me before. Kind of right after my faith crisis, I just kind of. My spiritual life just kind of went boom because I didn't know where to go. The things that brought me spirituality before just didn't work in the same way. And so Lorelites is really starting with the essence of what it means to have a spiritual experience or a transcendent experience or a peak experience, and really tapping into that, and we'll see where that community goes. I'm really excited about that community, and I really love it. Right now. It's pretty much focused on beauty, and I think that's sufficient. Sufficient for now, and we'll see how it grows into other avenues as it goes on. But that's the thing for me is it's kind of built on this foundation of beauty and just the simple rawness.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] What types. Can you describe some of the spiritual experiences you've had at Lorelaisonga and what. What you think made them happen? And what are some of the keys to the success of Lower Lights for you? What are the components that have been critical, essential?

Jon Ogden [01:00:06] Yeah, sure. So. Thomas knows what he's doing. He's been doing this for 20 years. And that can mean any number of things. But as I've gotten more involved in the community, I see, like, oh, actually, he really knows how to lead a group in just to have a transcendent experience. He knows how to move with the group and lead us to, I'll say beauty for a simple word. One experience that comes to mind is that at the end of one of the meditations, he did this meditation that was about our failings or our shortcomings. And during the meditation, I just felt, like, so aware of how incompetent I am. And I was burdened down by that feeling. And at the end, he opened it up for a discussion. He asked people what they were feeling. And I didn't want to say anything, basically, like, I am a loser, you know? And this other participant raised her hand, and she was just so vulnerable there. And she said almost verbatim what I was feeling. And in that moment, I just had this real sense of connection to another human. I'll say soul. I guess I could see that she and I were one, and I wasn't alone in my sense of being totally incompetent. I felt something much bigger than myself and this connection to all of humanity, and it was wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] So you're. It sounds. Not to be reductionist, but it sounds like you're basically talking about emotional intimacy, that you've got human beings being vulnerable, talking about their weaknesses, sharing authentic. Having authentic conversations. And that's the. That's the critical element that I just heard you characterize. Is that fair to say?

Jon Ogden [01:02:27] That is.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Is it more than that?

Jon Ogden [01:02:32] Not right now. Right now, Lower Lights is focused on those experiences.

Community Gatherings and Preventing Spiritual Harm

John Dehlin [01:02:42] Okay. And just. Just. Just because I'm curious, talk us through, like, the schedule for an average meeting. What you show up, what happens.

Jon Ogden [01:02:52] Thomas will give an introduction. He'll lead a group meditation for 20 minutes, and then he'll. Or a meditation with the whole. The whole gathering.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] What is the meditation? What do you do during that 20 minutes?

Jon Ogden [01:03:04] He'll guide us through. I'll think of an example, like, just being.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Is it a homily? Is it silence where you're all sitting there silent for 20 minutes?

Jon Ogden [01:03:17] Is would be similar. It would be. An example, would be like being aware of your breath, being aware of your body, starting out with those things, being aware of where you're sitting, and then moving to awareness of awareness itself and really being cognizant of the fact that you're aware and then moving into really experiencing that awareness. And it. It perhaps sounds trite when you reduce it to that, but it's really about the experience of being there and sensing into that again, the grandness that awareness is, even in its simplicity.

John Dehlin [01:04:02] And then. So what happens after that 20 minutes?

Jon Ogden [01:04:05] Then he might talk about that experience and maybe share an anecdote, and then often break us into groups of four or six people and have us meditate in groups or work us through something akin to that so that you actually, you meet people there and discuss things with people there and have, I would say, for me, personally, transformative experiences with those who come as well.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] So kind of breakout groups where people are sharing and again, being vulnerable with each other and that sort of thing.

Jon Ogden [01:04:46] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:04:47] How does it end?

Jon Ogden [01:04:51] Sometimes with tears. Often just happy, happy tears, I guess. But not all the time. It can just be. That was nice. I feel more peaceful. Thomas will bring us back together and say what came up for the group. People will say things like peace or any number of things. That's just one example. It might change week to week, but that's an example of what might happen at Lower Lights.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] What if somebody were to sort of say, man, that sounds like he's being a guru. It sounds like he's setting himself up to be people's spiritual leader. You know, we've seen this before. This is how cults start. This is how Joseph Smith probably started. Charismatic, handsome leader, gets a bunch of people to follow him, is able to manipulate them through emotional experiences, and then he starts taking their money. Then sexual escapades. You know, I mean, you know, I kind of started out asking about this, but how do you. How do you. How do you keep from having those thoughts? Because a lot of people don't want to join Oasis or Sunday assembly or anything because they don't want to be a part of repeating the mistakes of the past. And of course you're sincere about Thomas, but. But all the people that follow Joseph Smith, literally, including the people that gave him their daughters and wives, they sincerely were moved by Joseph. So how do you make sure you're not going to end up getting fooled or betrayed or abused like so many in Thomas's position have done in the past?

Jon Ogden [01:06:25] It's a good question. One of the answers is to bring that awareness into the group, to keep asking that question. Like you use that question as a touch point. Right, so.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] So the groups process this question together.

Jon Ogden [01:06:44] Yeah, I've asked that question in with the group, and it's something that the whole group is very cognizant of, I would say. They're, you know, just bringing into awareness and saying, hey, how can we make sure that we note that this is a potential way to ruin community? And how can we prevent that from happening? How can we start working so that that doesn't happen? And again, as I mentioned previously, Thomas has a way of bringing the collective together to make decisions and have things that come up organically, not just from him, but from the community, and then moving forward with those things so that it's not just fixated on a single individual, but it's like what is alive for this community at the time. So one example of that is that I suggested bringing water bottles or doing direct action for the homeless in Salt Lake City. And so one idea I had was just to gather water bottles, a group, and then take them down and directly give them to the homeless in Salt Lake City. And so it's like, I'm going to move forward with this as part of Lower Lights. Is that okay? And Lower Lights said yes. And then I move forward with it as part of the group. And so that was my initiative, along with Matt Haraldson, who does that thing all the time in Salt Lake. And it was amazing. It was a really successful experience. And we're doing that again, raising or gathering water bottles tomorrow night. But that was something that sprang up organically in the community and didn't have anything to do with top down leadership.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Is this a for profit thing that Thomas does or is it a nonprofit?

Jon Ogden [01:08:42] I think they're both aspects. So I think that, I don't know, I'd have to look into that to know exactly what the status is right now. I mean, his book, Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis is amazing. And that would be a for profit arm, but Lorelaites itself is nonprofit, so does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:09:04] So he's transparent with his finances and has a board and all that.

Jon Ogden [01:09:10] Yes, transparent with his finances. I have to look into those questions.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] That's okay. And then it sounds like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you have. Well, let me ask you this first. Has there ever been a, you know, okay, what percent of the people who attend Lower Lights, in your experience, do you think are active, devout orthodox Mormons or, or even progressive Mormons who attend. Do you have a sense for the activity rates of the people who attend?

Jon Ogden [01:09:44] It doesn't come up.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] Doesn't come up. So you don't even, you don't even have a sense for it?

Jon Ogden [01:09:48] No.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] Okay. And then because. Do you know people who are active in church who attend?

Jon Ogden [01:09:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:09:57] Does it ever come up for them? I wish church were spiritual like this. Like they're struggling with the fact that, that they need to supplement it all, that they're not getting edified at church, that they're not feeling those types of experiences and then they need to spend their time and give their money to Thomas because church isn't fulfilling them. Does that ever come up and how do people make sense of that as active Mormons?

Jon Ogden [01:10:26] I've heard it come up maybe a couple of times, but not much. Yeah, it's. It's interesting because it's not really. Because it's not the focal point of the discussions. Like are you, are you in or out of the church? That's never like the focus or even brought up at all. It tends to just not come up. It's mainly just about what is. What's lying beneath the surface in your heart, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] Got it.

Jon Ogden [01:10:59] Sense.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] And then this is the last question about all that because I know you mentioned that you wanted to talk about this before. So people who may be frustrated that I'm bringing this up when Mormons doubt the book was going to be a focus, you did say let's talk about this at the end and the work you're doing. So that's my disclaimer. I get the sense that you want it to be more that, you know, if. That you're gonna be patient with the Mormon Church for as long as you can, but that you're getting fatigue and that there's a part of you that would really like to see lower lights or something like it evolve into kind of a higher level religion or spiritual community, but that you kind of are a little bit hesitant to totally own or claim that. What would your reaction be to that?

Jon Ogden [01:11:53] I am hesitant because it's so early on in the process and so we'll just have to see what comes of it. So I certainly am not leading with that idea as like the primary motivation for any of this with Lorelites. I would also love to see Mormonism improve. Getting back to the book, I just mean to say that I feel like if we can't embrace the truth claims, if people are feeling a lack of spirituality and Mormonism. If people aren't feeling like it's doing good for those who are oppressed, something has to change because the only way to move up is toward truth, beauty and goodness. Closer to truth, beauty and goodness. And so if Mormonism does it, that's great. If Floral Lights does it, that's great. If Oasis does it, that's great. You know, it's like how do we, how do we bring all three of these things into collective. And I will say that there are studies that show that this might not seem relevant at first, but let me circle back to why it's relevant. So there are studies that show that people who leave religion are generally have less well being if they're in a community that is full of religious believers, if they're like ostracized. But there are lots of studies that also show that countries that are more secular in their approach have better well being than countries that are more religious leaning. And so if I'm seeking well being, I have to realize that I can't do it alone. I need to be part of a community. And we have to move toward truth, beauty and goodness together. And that, that's so where as it I want to see that happen. And wherever it happens, I applaud because it, the studies are showing that it has to happen in community. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] The communities. The community is the one thing, you know, if people have a psychological benefit from religious affiliation, it appears as though the active ingredient in that is the community, not necessarily the doctrine or the theology or any of that stuff. Right?

Jon Ogden [01:14:13] Not, not necessarily. It could be, but absolutely it is community for sure.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Yeah.

Jon Ogden [01:14:19] Well, cool.

Final Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Well, John Ogden, this has been fascinating. I think we've, I think we've got about two hours, maybe two hours and 20 minutes. We've talked about a wide range of things. Any final words or comments you have about when Mormons doubt a way to save relationships and seek a quality of life.

Jon Ogden [01:14:41] I will say that I hope that what the book does for people, and I've heard this from many people who've read it, I hope that it is a book that people can share with friends and family no matter what their beliefs are. When I did the, when I initially put it out, I thought that everybody would hate it because it is very. Applauds a lot about Mormonism, praises a lot about Mormonism. And so I thought people who were post Mormon would hate it. But it also calls Mormons to account for the truth claims. And so I thought many Mormons would hate it. But at least from what I've seen, it seems to have done a really good job of bridging the divide, which was the goal. But I'm constantly full of self doubt and so I was pleasantly surprised to see that it has bridged the divide for many people and really helped people see eye to eye, even if they don't agree. Ultimately, I'm concerned about moving toward truth, beauty and goodness wherever it is. Doesn't matter. If it's in Mormonism, I'll take it. If it's outside of Mormonism, I'll take it. I just want to move toward truth, beauty and goodness. And I hope that the collective community, Mormon and post Mormon here in Utah can move in that direction because I think that we will see a much healthier, broad community if we're deliberate about doing that.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Beautiful. All right, well, the book is When Mormons Doubt A Way to Save Relationships and Seek a Quality of Life. The author is John Ogden. John, it's so nice of you to come on Warmer Stories. I'm glad we finally got you on.

Jon Ogden [01:16:29] Yeah, thanks so much.

John Dehlin [01:16:30] All right, I want to thank all our people for tuning in. It looks like Facebook had some problems streaming towards the end. We may have lost the feed, but that's okay because we record this and we'll share it afterwards. Want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories to make it possible? If you benefited from this or other interviews, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. We would love your support. If you can't do that or if you want to help us in other ways, please like Mormon Stories Podcast page on Facebook. Please leave a positive review on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page. Please go to itunes, log in and give Mormon Stories Podcast a positive review. Please tell your friends about us and support our workshops and retreats. If you are seeking support or you know someone who is. We just appreciate all who make this possible. Thanks to Amy Grubbs, Cody Layton and the Open Stories Foundation Board everyone who makes this possible. Don't forget to check out Thoughtful Faith Podcast, Mormon Matters Podcast, Mormon Mental Health Podcast, and of course the Mormon Stories Podcast community on Facebook and the A Thoughtful Faith Facebook group for those who are seeking to stay actively engaged in Mormonism. We sure appreciate everybody. Tune in again for another episode soon. Please send us your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com we'd love to get your feedback into incorporated in what we do. And again, John Ogden, you're awesome. Keep up the good work and don't be a stranger.

Jon Ogden [01:18:05] All right. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:18:09] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.