Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 30, 2021, and we have had a great month on Mormon Stories Podcast. We are just rocking and rolling, and today is going to be no exception. Let me first begin by reintroducing Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah, thanks for joining us. Hey, John, it's great to have you.

Carah Burrell [00:00:21] It's great to be here. I mean, I do have the best job in the world, so not a problem to show up for work today. I'm excited for this one.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Glad you like it. So, Carah, I introduced Care first because Carah took over or basically launched Mormon Stories podcast TikTok channel a couple months ago. Now we just passed a million likes on the channel. We're what, 60,000 followers? How many?

Carah Burrell [00:00:45] It's. It's neck and neck with my Nuance channel, which is like, kind of like, I don't know, depressing or cool. But, yeah, it's around the. Around 66,000.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] 66,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of the cool initiatives that we launched early on to try and spur more progressive and post Mormon involvement in TikTok is we created a hashtag called My MormonStory. We have so many people who come to us, I think at least 10 a day come and say, can I be on Mormon Stories podcast? And we, number one, don't have a way to really screen and filter everybody. Don't have the time to do that. And number two, we don't like being the filter for people's story. And so we had this idea of creating a hashtag on TikTok called My MormonStory and ask you all to try to see if you could do your Mormon story in less than a minute or less than three minutes, depending on what your TikTok limit is. And so that hashtag now has over, like, 1.2 million views on TikTok. A bunch of you have done it. And what we promised is that we would pick, you know, a few of the people who created a My Mormon Story TikTok video to come on Mormon Stories. And we were going to do several. We're going to kind of have that be an ongoing thing. And the first person that we've selected to come on Mormon Stories podcast from that project is. Is Lauren Rogers. Hey, Lauren.

Lauren Rogers [00:02:05] Hi. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Thanks for joining us.

Lauren Rogers [00:02:07] Yeah, thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Okay, what's your TikTok channel? What's your name?

Lauren Rogers [00:02:10] Xmo. Underscore.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Mom.

Lauren Rogers [00:02:12] Underscore.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah. Okay. And you've Been tiktoking?

Lauren Rogers [00:02:16] Yes, I have.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Yeah. And I really enjoyed your, my Mormon story and I've enjoyed following your TikToks. But Lauren Rogers has a really cool story for a lot of reasons. Let me just give you kind of that overview of, of what you're gonna be hearing today. Just so you know. First of all, we'll do what we wanna call a content rating. In the past, I always tried to make every single Mormon Stories episode sort of like believer friendly, no swearing, all kind of calm and John Dehlin like again, orthodox Mormon friendly. And what we found is that while we want Mormon stories to always have that sort of content, we also want to be able to have people like John Larsen that sometimes may swear a little bit or be irreverent or just express anger and, and depending on the interview subject or the topic, sometimes things may be a little bit more or less explicit, more, more or less profanity, et cetera. And so we want to try and do both to create episodes that aren't in an echo chamber that are friendly to those who are either questioning the church or in the church or newly out of the church. And we also want to be able to create content for, you know, ex Mormons that can sometimes validate or express what ex Mormons are feeling. So our solution to thread the needle is to try and provide content warnings and that's what we're going to do today. So my sense for today's episode, and Lauren, you can tell me if I'm wrong, is that generally this is going to be a believer friendly interview. We're going to try and be kind and compassionate sort of systems, not people about the church. We're going to have Lauren tell her story and in a way where, where it's not trashing or attacking the church and there may be a mild swear word thrown in here or there because we want this to be authentic. Now Lauren, do you. How would you.

Lauren Rogers [00:03:59] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Does that sound right?

Lauren Rogers [00:04:01] Yeah, that sounds perfect.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah. Carah, can you comply with that today? How does that sound for you?

Carah Burrell [00:04:05] BLEEP now?

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Yes, perfect. Now in terms of what we're going to be covering, Lauren's got a super cool story. I'm not going to try and tell you the whole story here, but a couple of the things you're going to be hearing about, you know, kind of raised in the church, we'll be talking about that. We're going to be talking heavily about her mission experience. She experienced a significant amount of abuse and neglect on her mission from the mission president to various elements of her mission, to the extent that she today suffers, probably qualifies as disabled because of the medical neglect and abuse that she experienced on her mission. Psychological, emotional, et cetera. So we're going to be heavily talking about her mission abuse. We are also going to be talking about her exploration in terms of her own sexuality. She is married, she does have a kid, and she has, through her faith crisis and journey has been able to kind of explore her sexuality. And that's going to be a topic and then also just kind of her and her husband's kind of faith journey. Are there any, any other major themes that you think we're going to be hitting today, Lauren or Carah?

Lauren Rogers [00:05:10] No, that about. That covers, that covers the main ones.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Okay. All right. Carrie, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Carah Burrell [00:05:16] No, I just love when we get somebody from the tick tock world in here into the real world and talking to Lauren before it started. You're a sweetheart. I think we're gonna. And her baby's here, her husband's here, so. Oh, yeah, there's a. Yeah, there might be a little bit of baby babbling, but it's gonna be worth it because it's making all of us smile in the room, so.

Lauren Rogers [00:05:36] She's so cute.

Carah Burrell [00:05:37] There's a benefit to the baby babbling if you're here, if it's coming across through the audio.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] So yeah, we're, we want to be a baby friendly studio here at Mormon Stories podcast.

Carah Burrell [00:05:46] And her baby is whatever, nine minus. Let's see, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. It's six days apart from my son.

Lauren Rogers [00:05:53] Yeah. So that's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] All right, so buckle in for a multi hour, emotional, thoughtful, heart wrenching and heart touching and inspiring Mormon stories. And I should add, Lauren has been become a bit of an activist in kind of the TikTok world, but also in across Utah for various causes. So we'll have a, a bit of an activism theme as well. So Lauren, where does your Mormon story begin? And any disclaimers you want to start with or corrections or additions?

Descendant of Brigham Young, Growing Up Mormon

Lauren Rogers [00:06:23] Yeah, no, I, I, my Mormon story I think just starts with, you know, Brigham Young. I'm a direct descendant of Brigham Young. And so as I've really deconstructed, I've recognized how much my story has to do with the generational trauma that can be passed down when big events happen. Right. And I imagine being, I descend from a son named Alonzo. I imagine Alonzo's life was not as happy as it could be if he would have had a Father that didn't have 56 other children to attend to and 55 other wives to attend to. And so I imagine he wasn't very present in his life. And that probably caused trauma. And that trauma has been passed down through the generations all the way to me. And so being. Being a descendant of Brigham Young was like a huge part of my childhood. It was something that, you know, I was very proud of.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And did your family talk about it?

Lauren Rogers [00:07:20] Oh, yeah. I mean, we have Brigham Young's chair that sat in his house. It's at my parents house. We have Alonzo Young's family Bible. We. It was just a huge part of our, like my maiden name is Young. Like we it all the way down with songs.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Wow, that's amazing. Okay, so multi generational trauma and prophetic pride.

Lauren Rogers [00:07:41] Oh, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] I mean, I have other family reunions. You'd go to of like all the descendants of Brigham Young?

Lauren Rogers [00:07:46] No, because he had so many. But yeah, I mean, I have a copy of Brigham Young's Patriarchal Blessing and it talks about like his descendants. And I'm like, growing up, that was like, that's me. Like, I always had that like huge pride, but also like pressure to live up to, you know, descendant of a prophet.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] Yeah. So what was your upbringing like?

Lauren Rogers [00:08:12] So I grew up in a very orthodox Mormon household. Like, no movies on Sunday, no caffeine. Like, very, very strict in our observance of Mormonism. And I was very enthusiastic about it. I loved going to church. What city I was in? Houston, Texas.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] Okay.

Lauren Rogers [00:08:32] Yeah. And so, yeah, I grew up very, very much involved in the gospel. You know, I was beehive my maid and Laurel class president. I just was always had all the big callings and I was always, you know, very, very involved and very enthusiastically involved.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Yeah. Okay. I grew. I grew up in. I grew up in Houston, actually. So I have really fond memories of the Stake activities and the youth leaders and just Houston in general. But maybe before we get to that, you know, did you guys do all the things in your family? The fam home evening, the scripture study?

Lauren Rogers [00:09:12] We did family scripture study every day and family home evening every week. And I mean, I studied the scriptures personally from before I even got baptized. Like, I. That was something I took a lot of pride in, is that I never missed a day. Even if it was just a verse. I would read the Book of Mormon every single day.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] And again, you probably said this. How many siblings?

Lauren Rogers [00:09:33] So I have three older brothers and then I am an identical twin. So my sister and I end up really? Yep.

Carah Burrell [00:09:40] That's actually funny because there's kind of a joke on TikTok right now that she looks like X1 Panda Girl a little bit. Yeah. I think. What's her name? Jessie. Is that her name?

Lauren Rogers [00:09:50] I don't remember her.

Carah Burrell [00:09:51] I did a dual live with her the other day. I should probably. I think her name's Jesse. Anyway, excellent Panda Girl. I just go by, but people are like swiping through TikTok and they're like, lauren, excellent Panda Girl. No, no. You guys kind of look the same. Yeah.

Lauren Rogers [00:10:01] And then my sister just recently got into Exmo Tik Tok and people are like, you look just like X Mom. I'm like, yeah, we know.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Okay, so you have an identical twin. There's five of you siblings total?

Lauren Rogers [00:10:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Super orthodox house.

Carah Burrell [00:10:15] Yeah.

Recognizing Same-Sex Attraction as a Young Teen

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Anything else you want to say about how Mormon you guys were? No.

Lauren Rogers [00:10:21] I mean, yeah, we were very. Just very strict and I think typical. I feel like that's typical in Mormonism. There's lots of strict families. But maybe I'm wrong.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] What did your parents do for work?

Lauren Rogers [00:10:33] So my dad works for FedEx. He's in HR. And then my mom does everything. She was a stay at home mom while I was younger, but then she started substitute teaching and then just working for different entrepreneurial. I don't know how if I said that right, but she's very into everything. She's a woman of many traits.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] So when, at what point does your Mormon story start to get rough or challenging or beautiful and powerful? How does it proceed from childhood to adolescence?

Lauren Rogers [00:11:06] Yeah, well, when I was 12, that's when I had my first gay panic when I was like, oh my gosh, I think I might be gay. But at 12? At 12.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] And did you even know what that meant at the time?

Lauren Rogers [00:11:21] Yeah, I did know what it meant because I had multiple gay friends. And so I was very. I didn't know a lot about it as far as like the church went and what their stance was. It was on it, but I knew that it was not something I should be like. I loved my friends who were gay and I didn't find anything wrong with that, but I knew it was something that didn't go with being a Mormon. And so I very quickly repressed that and convinced myself that it wasn't true. And honestly, I'm very thankful for that that I was able to successfully trick myself into thinking I was straight, because I can only imagine that my trauma in the church would have just multiplied because, you know, my brother is gay and he knew he was gay while he was Mormon. And, and yeah, it was so difficult for him, so traumatic for him. And so I'm grateful that I didn't have to go through all of the trauma that most gay people have to go through in the church because I tricked myself very thoroughly that I was straight.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] What made you think you might be when you're 12?

Lauren Rogers [00:12:26] I didn't have the normal feelings for guys that I was supposed to be having. You know, I, I didn't have very good language either. I would feel uncomfort nervous around guys when I could tell they were flirting with me. And because I didn't have the language to know what that meant, I just interpreted that as, oh, that's must much. Must be what a crush feels like. Like, I'm nervous. Those are butterflies. And then I also, I found myself just really being attached to my female friends and so. And really wanting to dress more masculine and do more masculine things. And my friend told me like, like my friend asked me if I was gay and that's when I was like, oh no, am I? And then very quickly went through all the mental gymnastics I needed to convince myself that no, I was straight and I didn't need to worry about that.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] You dodged a Mormon bullet. Yes, I very much wasted your youth.

Lauren Rogers [00:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] Okay, so. So you went back push yourself quickly in the closet at 12, and then what happened?

Lauren Rogers [00:13:31] Yeah, and then I think my brother coming out to me as gay was also a huge thing in my life. You know, I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed because I.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] He came out to you when he was. You were how old?

Lauren Rogers [00:13:47] I was? I believe I was 15 or 16 and he was 18.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] How was that going? Did he come out to you before he came out to his own parents or to his children?

Lauren Rogers [00:13:56] Yeah, he came out to my sister first. Your twin or my twin? Yeah, I think he might have come out to a friend before my sister. But in our family it was, I believe, my sister. And then me and I. He did it with a letter. So I was in my room when I read it.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] Had you have had any idea, would you have had any idea?

Lauren Rogers [00:14:15] Well, I mean, he played with Barbies with me. He had pink purses. He would walk around in our high heels like when we were little kids. And so a lot of my friends thought he was gay, but I was like, no, like he's not gay. He would have told me, you know, because we were very close. And so I, I was very convinced that if he were gay, he would have told me by now. So he can't be gay. And so I. But I. Yeah, I just. I read the letter and I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed because I just knew that he was going to have a life of sadness, you know, a life of hardships.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Did you love him?

Lauren Rogers [00:14:49] Yeah. Yeah, I loved him so much. I was very close to him at the time. He was probably the only brother I was close to at that time, so I felt attached to him, and I just felt so sad that I. I knew that I felt like he was doomed to. To live a life of sadness because there was no place for him in the church. You know, by 16, I knew that because even though I was convinced myself I wasn't gay, I was still very emotional about the gay topic. You know, I very much saw myself as, like, a fierce ally.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] And how can you be a LGBTQ ally as a devout Mormon girl? How does that work?

Lauren Rogers [00:15:29] Just, you know, I had a lot of friends who were gay, and, you know, growing up in the South, a lot of people grew up in Christian households. And so I had two different friends who came to me talking about how they were gay and their parents weren't going to accept them, and they were scared. And, you know, I, at 13, was bearing my testimony that God loved them even though they were gay and that there was nothing wrong with them. And that was just something I intrinsically knew. And there was a huge cause of discomfort when I went to learn what the church's stance was on being gay. It was a problem I had with the church from a very young age, and so I very much was passionate about it because now I know, because I was gay, and I knew that somewhere deep down, and. And my brother coming out to me gave me the excuse to become a very active, you know, ally to the LGBTQ community.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] As a. As a Mormon teen, were you worried about his soul? Were you worried about Heavenly Father? I was him going to the celestial kingdom or Celestial kingdom or some bad place?

Lauren Rogers [00:16:38] Yeah. I mean, I. At that point, I knew there was a family in my ward that my parents were close with, who they were in a mixed orientation marriage. So I knew there was, like, hope for him that he could still get married in the temple and have exaltation. And I was just so scared that it would be too hard for him because it seemed too hard for me. I thought that that would just be an impossible challenge. And I was terrified that he would try and try, but ultimately fail and lose his exaltation. I was very, very afraid for his soul and afraid for his happiness more than anything.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] But what'd you tell him in terms of like.

Lauren Rogers [00:17:20] Oh, when he. Yeah, after I read the letter and I finished crying, I went to him and I hugged him and cried again. You know, sorry, I'm not normally emotional. I just told him I loved him and that, you know, I am proud of him.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] That's a nice response.

Lauren Rogers [00:17:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Especially from a Mormon girl.

Lauren Rogers [00:17:41] Yeah. And I, Yeah, I was just. He was very relieved because I was probably the most enthusiastic Mormon of the siblings. Like, we were all pretty active. Well, all of us but one were very active at that time. And so I think he was afraid that I wouldn't react well. And, and I found myself wishing he would have told me sooner because he grew up hating himself for being gay. He grew up thinking he was an abomination. And I was just like, I wish you would have told me because I would have told you that that's not true. Like, I would have made sure you knew that you weren't an abomination because of your sexuality.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] That's great. So how did your story progress

Deciding to Serve a Mission

Lauren Rogers [00:18:25] then? I guess I, I went on a mission. The, the mission age changed and, you know, more difficult things happened in my teenage years that really made me just cling even more to the gospel. I became what I now can clearly see was a fanatic. Like, I was, you know, in a really difficult emotional place and I was using the gospel to self medicate my depression, you know, and so I just became super, super devout, even more than I had been. And so when the mission age changed, that was it. That was the only thing I cared about, was going on a mission, preparing for a mission. And at that point I was becoming a bit more of a feminist, you know, at least for a Mormon standard. Not like a true feminist at that time, not yet. But I was, you know, put out by the fact that women didn't get any authority in the church. And I, I was so excited to be a missionary because I knew I would have the authority of God. You know, like I, I could finally use all the zeal that I had to actually do work in God's kingdom. And I was just ecstatic to serve a mission and turned in my paperwork the first day that I could, you know, you could do it, I think, 90 days before your 19th birthday. And I turned it in that, that very day and served my mission directly after high school because I have an early birthday, so I didn't do any college. I just went on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Let me ask you really quickly, did you have any kind of shame kind of in your Adolescent years related to your bishop or, you know, the church's standards, or were you sort of like the perfect Mormon girl or somewhere in between?

Lauren Rogers [00:20:12] Yeah, no, I had a lot of shame, but not because I ever, like, did anything bad. I was very, very obsessive with being exactly obedient and. Which was probably just a manifestation of my anxiety and being a bit too obsessive about those things. So it wasn't shame about anything I had done. It was just more shame about, like, my body and being a woman. And I was, like, obsessed with modesty because it made me extremely uncomfortable if, like, men would look at me. And now I. Another clue, you know, that I, you know, wasn't comfortable with male attention because I wasn't sexually interested in men. I was. I was gay, you know, and I just didn't know that that was why. And also, of course, the shame culture of the church, you know, I was very much afraid of my body. I didn't even, like, look at it. When I would shower. I would. I would go in between the shower curtains to change so that I wouldn't accidentally see myself. Like, I just was so ashamed of, you know, the female body because I was told that it was something to be covered and not to mention, you know, feelings of arousal for female bodies rather than male bodies, which was confusing at the time. And so I didn't even want to look. I didn't even want to look at a female body, even though it was my own. So, yeah, I experienced a ton of shame. Never really talked to my bishop about any of those things. But I did also have shame with a bishop, I guess. When I was 13, I had a sip of alcohol and that was. That was the worst thing I had ever done, you know, And I only did it because I was, like, peer pressured and all of that. I didn't even want to, but I. When my parents found out, they took me to the bishop's office and made me confess. I didn't want to confess. I told you, I'm like, that was six months ago. I never did it again. I didn't even want to do it. Like, I should be fine. Like, I don't need his help to repent for something I'm not doing anymore. That's what repentance means. It's changing. And. And so they took me anyway. And they told me before I went in, we already told him everything you did. So you can't lie. You have to tell him everything. And so, you know, I told him everything, and he told me I couldn't take the sacrament for I don't remember how long, but that was the worst shame. That was probably when I clicked and became a fanatic because that was so much shame. I had never experienced something like that. I was convinced everyone in the building saw that I didn't take the sacrament. You know, my friend is the one who passed the sacrament to me. And I was convinced he saw and would think less of me. And so I promised myself in that moment that I would never do anything again that would warrant having to go to the bishop because that was such a horrible experience. And so I became very obsessive about following everything at that point in my life. Like at 13.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] I mean, it's. It's complicated because on the one hand, shame is no fun. It leaves scars, and it whips you from the church's standpoint. It whips you into shape, and it makes you sort of like, try and live the best life you can, because you certainly don't want to experience that again.

Lauren Rogers [00:23:28] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's what's so hard for me about the church is, you know, the shaming that happens is. It's just so unhealthy. It's so damaging. But it's one of their biggest tools. You know, that's how they. They get obedience is. And it's frustrating because they mask shame as kindness or love or correction. You know, like, it's. It's not seen as something negative when, you know, those shameful things happen to you. It's seen as, you know, God is teaching you, you're learning. And that's just not. Not a God I would ever want to follow. You know, that's not. Especially as a parent, when I know the correct way to teach my daughter to do good things is, you know, positive reinforcement and teaching her intrinsic motivation. And that's what's good, that's what's healthy. And if God wants. Was a loving parent, that's what he would do. He wouldn't shame his children into obedience. And so that's. Yes, that's another thing that I really hurt that the church is like that. I. I have so many friends and family that are still in the church, and I. I am pained that they have to feel that shame when it just shouldn't be necessary.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Yeah. Before we jump to your mission, I'm curious to know what your testimony looked like. So were you going to seminary? Early morning seminary? Did you read the Book of Mormon? Did you pray about it? Did you try and get to know if the church was true? Did you already Just know it was true. Did you have secret doubts? Like, where was your testimony in those teen years?

Lauren Rogers [00:25:15] Yeah, I. So I, Yeah, I went to early morning seminary and I studied my scriptures and prayed and did the callings and the temple. And I had read the Book of Mormon dozens of times. And each time I had prayed about it and gained a testimony that it was true and was very, just very, very spiritual. But I did have a lot of. I didn't call them doubts. I called them questions. You know, I had a lot of questions about, you know, homosexuality and. And I had a lot of questions about, you know, why black people were denied temple blessings and the priesthood and why polygamy was a thing. Polygamy made me really uncomfortable. I remember when I was 14, I found out for the first time that Joseph Smith also had plural wives. That was something I didn't know before, and I, at that point didn't even know the extent of it. But it caused me to doubt for the first time at 14. And that doubt only lasted a day. And then I convinced myself that it was true again. But that was the first and only time I doubted was when I found out about Joseph's polygamy. And so, yeah, I had these.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] How did you learn about that at 14?

Lauren Rogers [00:26:32] In seminary. My seminary teacher mentioned that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, and I was like, what

Carah Burrell [00:26:39] do you think it was part of, like, the inoculation that a lot of people are doing where they, you know,

John Dehlin [00:26:44] if they mentioned it just briefly, then, yeah, oh, sorry.

Carah Burrell [00:26:47] Yeah, yeah, go ahead and finish. Yeah, if you just mention it briefly and you're like, oh, then it's not something to worry about. People who are smarter and have better testimonies than I ever could or would.

Lauren Rogers [00:26:55] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:26:56] They, they're. They know about it, they're fine with it. I'm not going to look into it anymore. Plus, it gives me all these uncomfortable feelings, thought stopping or whatever.

Lauren Rogers [00:27:03] Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. I mean, I saw that at BYU as well, like in my religion class. My Rest, like Foundations of the Restoration, they absolutely basically went over, like, most of the things in the CES letter. But I didn't even know what the CES letter was. But they presented everything like, as like faith building ways. But now you won't be alarmed when you hear about it on the Internet. And so, yeah, I think the church definitely tries to like, inoculate its members on these hard topics more and more. That's something I'm seeing them do.

Carah Burrell [00:27:37] And when you mentioned that you read the Book of Mormon multiple times As a teen and you prayed about it. Would you mind going into that experience of. I'm assuming you read like Moroni's Promise and prayed about it and you felt like you had a confirmation that it was true.

Lauren Rogers [00:27:51] Yeah, my answers were never, like, big spiritual experience. I never felt like the burning in my bosom, but I would read it and always ponder on, you know, the good things that I had learned from it. Because, like I mentioned, I used like the scriptures and church to self medicate for my depression and my anxiety. And so I could think of so many instances where something the Book of Mormon said had made me feel comfort when I was hurting. And so to me, that was my answer that, you know, it had to be from God because it helped me when I needed help. And so, yeah, that I never had, like any big experience. It was just those little experiences of like, this seems to be a good book. So it's true, you know, that's. That was how I thought.

Carah Burrell [00:28:44] Yeah. When you're a teen, you're like, grasping for something in turbulent years that gives you comfort and you kind of just like need a motivated reasoning almost that like the system I was born in. Of course it's true. Because the anxiety and panic attack that would come if I questioned it. That's not gonna happen. So.

Lauren Rogers [00:29:00] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally.

Receiving a Mission Call and Early Preparations

John Dehlin [00:29:03] Okay, so mission.

Lauren Rogers [00:29:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Okay, really quick. What year did you graduate from high school? So we can understand kind of the cohort.

Carah Burrell [00:29:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Of what time frame we're talking about, because all this inoculation stuff, not part of my upbringing. And I'm even guessing it wasn't part of your. Your seminary experience either. So what year are you graduating from high school?

Lauren Rogers [00:29:21] 2014.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Okay, so this is seven years ago. This is right as the church is releasing its gospel topics essays. This is right when the CES letter first comes out.

Lauren Rogers [00:29:31] Yeah, it came out like a year before I graduated, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] And this is the year Kate Kelly and I got our letters to be excommunicated, both on 2014. Okay, so 2014, you graduated from high school.

Lauren Rogers [00:29:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] This is after they lowered the age for women to go on missions.

Lauren Rogers [00:29:46] Yes. And so, yeah, I was preparing to go on my mission. I was getting on my vaccines and all of that. And the day after, like, literally the day after my mission paperwork, like, got sent in, I started getting, like, weird health symptoms, like a really painful rash, like, on my face and on my back and like brain fog and fatigue. And I was like, what is going on? And then it actually took a really long time for me to get my mission call, because it was like, I turned it in right before the brethren go on vacation for a month. And so it took, like, two months for me to get my mission call. And my health just, like, did a super sharp, like, out of nowhere decline. And so I talked to my stake president, and I was like, hey, when I turned in my mission paperwork, I was super healthy and nothing was wrong. But now, like, I had to change my diet completely. I, like, stopped being able to eat, like, gluten, dairy, and sugar. So that's like a huge change. And it started improving my health. But it's like, it still felt like something like that should have been included in my. In my paperwork, you know, because that might determine where I go on my mission. And I told my stake president that, and he said, no, this spirit has told me that Satan is trying to prevent you from going on a mission because your mission will be so important for God's work. And so we're not going to tell the brethren about your health, and you're going to go where you were called to serve without them knowing that you were sick. And so at the time, I was ecstatic. I was like, great. Like, I was so nervous I wasn't gonna be able to serve anymore. And that's been, like, the greatest desire of my heart for so long. And so I was ecstatic that God was saying, no, Satan's trying to push you down. You're gonna be all right in the health department. Go on your mission anyway. And so now looking back, I'm like, that was super, super neglectful. Like, that was super irresponsible. That my health has. Is important too, basically. You know, like, serving a mission is not more important than sacrificing my health. I had no business going to a third world country if. Where there might not be good medical care if my health was a question. And that's exactly where I was called. I was called to South America. And so I. I don't know if you want to comment or pause before I go on or.

Carah Burrell [00:32:16] All I'll say to that is that I'm assuming that you probably had a lot of those scriptures in your brain about, like, how great your joy will be in heaven if you bring. Save it, be one soul unto me. And that you are willing to put your own health and needs and concerns on the back burner. Were those. Was that kind of like, in the forefront of your mind that, like, whatever happens, happens? Because if I can baptize one person, it'll be worth it? Like, what was your Motivation. Yeah. Besides just having that drive, it sounds like that you always had. Was there a second motivation to, like, convert people that that's a higher priority than your own well being?

Lauren Rogers [00:32:49] Absolutely. There was kind of a combination of, like, first that, you know, it's more important to. To serve God and to serve my mission and to do what he wants me to do than to be worried about my own well being. You know, that that's my number one priority is God, and my needs come second. So that was absolutely the first reason. And the second reason was, you know, there are so many promised blessings to people who serve missions. You know, they promise you health, they promise you protection, and they promise that your family will be protected. Those are the. The three big things that I was just really leaning on those promises because. And those three things, you know, health, protection, and that your family would be protected, all did not happen for me on my mission. And so that was really. That was really devastating. But I'm getting ahead of myself in. When I was set apart, my stake president even blessed me that all of my health problems would fade away as I served my mission faithfully. And so that was something that I clung to as I served my mission and something I 100% believed in. I believed that the Lord would bless me for my service with health because he had promised to. In a blessing that I believed was from God.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] There's that. There's that phrase, whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies. And there's also that, you know, the Lord will never give you any challenge that you can't face, sort of idea. And so, yeah, you just think, I'm on top of the world. The Lord's going to make me a superhero, and I'm going to be able to rock Brazil, convert the whole country. Right?

Lauren Rogers [00:34:29] Yeah, exactly. I just was. I really was. I was on top of the world because I had the authority of God and I had the promises of health and that I could not fail, you know, because I had no doubt in my own ability to be faithful and to be obedient, because I had been doing it a long time. I was very good at it. And so I knew that meant 100%. It meant I was gonna find success and I was gonna be protected because I believed so much in. In those promises and in those scriptures. And that really set me up for, you know, just not. Not being wise when it comes to my. My health, not advocating for myself and my health as much as I should have, you know, And. And so that's why that rhetoric is so dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Yeah. Just yesterday we had Matt Easton on the guy, the BYU valedictorian that Mormon apostle Jeffrey R. Holland denounced in that recent talk.

Lauren Rogers [00:35:31] I was at commencement that year. That's the year I graduated there.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Yeah. Well, he told his heart wrenching story yesterday about he's at the end of his mission. And this is a TikTok video Carah made of this just last night. He's, he's finishing his. He'd been, you know, knew he was gay since he was like 12 or whatever but you know, never experimented with that, had only dated girls, was a faithful kid and missionary, gets to the end of his mission and he's still gay. So he tells his mission president I'm gay. And the mission president gives him a priesthood blessing and promises him from this point forward you will no longer experience same sex attraction. You'll date women, you'll marry a woman, you'll have kids. I think he even told him he was going to be a bishop someday or something like that.

Carah Burrell [00:36:18] Like a leader in Zion.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Yeah. And he gets to BYU and just in a couple weeks he's like, wait, I'm still attracted to men. But what I think non Mormons won't get, and we have a lot of non Mormon listeners, is when a church leader gives you a priesthood blessing, tell us what we're taught that means what a priesthood blessing from a church leader means what?

Lauren Rogers [00:36:40] Yeah, I mean we are taught that it's very literally God speaking through the person that, you know, if they have the proper authority, so the church gives them the proper authority and they're using it correctly. And if the person receiving the blessing has enough faith, then anything they are promised is the word of God and it will come true. And the upon your faith, that's the damaging part because then when it doesn't come true, you blame yourself, you know, because God can't be wrong. And, and yeah, when I was watching last night that part and I just cried and cried and cried because that's exactly what happened to me. I was so many times blessed health and blamed myself when it didn't, when it didn't happen for me.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] I'm so sorry. All right, so how did that mission go?

Health Struggles and Hardships on the Mission

Lauren Rogers [00:37:29] Oh man. So I started my mission with my ridiculously hard diet and my rash and being in pain and all of those things. But you know, keeping my diet actually helped me slowly get better. And so by the time I actually got into the mission field because I was in the MTC for like six weeks because it was a born. No in Chile actually Yeah, I served in Chile and the MTC was actually in my mission, so I didn't even have to go far when I was done in the mtc.

Carah Burrell [00:38:03] And what was the mission that you were called to?

Lauren Rogers [00:38:04] Santiago East. I almost said este.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Sorry, why did I say Brazil?

Lauren Rogers [00:38:09] I said South America. So I didn't. I wasn't specific. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Chile. You're in Chile.

Lauren Rogers [00:38:13] Chile, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] Okay.

Lauren Rogers [00:38:15] And so when I first got to the mission field, I was the happiest I had ever been in my life. I loved being a missionary. I, like I mentioned before, I had the authority of God and I knew how to use it. I just loved that I could devote every waking moment to. To Jesus and to God because I just was so. Yeah, I was so devout and I. My health was getting better and. And shoot, I forgot what I was going to add. Sorry, one sec.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Let me just say while you're looking, Chile is a really important country in the history of Mormon missions. It is, because when I was serving my mission in Guatemala in, you know, from 88 to 90, Chile was the top baptizing country in the world. There were. There was at least one mission, the Vina del Mar Mission, southern Chile, that had over a thousand baptisms in a month. And. But it. It was. It was all. It was like 95 corrupt, fraudulent baptisms where they'd like, take people to beaches and baptize them just at a party and they had no lessons and no discussions and had no. Had never been to church and had no idea what they were doing. They baptized kids. They baptized. They take names off of tombstones and put them on baptismal certificates. Like a total sham.

Lauren Rogers [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] So bad that when. That the church had been decimated by over baptisms throughout the 80s and 90s that Elder Holland had to take a special trip to Chile and spent three years there and closed 30 stakes in Chile while he was there. And I have a Mormon Stories episode about this from Dr. Ted Lyon, who was a mission president in Chile. He was the president of the MTC in Chile, and he was Elder Holland's interpreter while he was in Chile. And so you would have gone to Chile a couple decades after that. That disaster had. Had happened.

Lauren Rogers [00:40:13] Yeah. But we were still seeing the effects of that. We had so many less actives to teach. And that was the explanation I was given on my mission, is that, you know, people were baptizing people incorrectly. So most of these less actives we were assigned to go teach didn't even know anything about Mormonism. They were Mormons only technically, you Know, because they had been baptized when they didn't know anything, and they were scared because of the turmoil in the government at the time. And so they clung to any. Any message of hope, and they accepted. And so, yeah, that was. I saw the effects of that on my mission. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] There'd be words with a thousand members on record, but only, like, 20 people attending. Yeah, that kind of ridiculousness.

Lauren Rogers [00:40:56] Yeah. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Yeah. Okay. So what were you going to say about going to Chile?

Lauren Rogers [00:41:02] Yeah, so I was just. I was super happy. I had. It was. Everything I ever wanted was to be a missionary. And I, before my mission, was extremely, extremely shy. And all of that vanished on my mission. Like, my anxiety vanished, my shyness. Everything was just peachy. And that slowly. That happiness slowly got chipped away. Through the mission. I was exactly obedient and exactly diligent and did everything I was supposed to do. But I kept having problems like my. I had lots of companions who were not very nice to me, you know, and that was really hard. I had good companions as well, of course, but I. I had multiple sexual assaults that were not. It was just not even. You don't get a day off, you know, you don't get a day off to decompress. You are shamed into not even telling anyone about it. And so that was something that you're comfortable going into. Yeah, I was just in the street, people. I stood out like a sore thumb.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Blonde hair.

Lauren Rogers [00:42:23] Blonde hair, a head taller than everyone else. And so I had multiple people, you know, asking me to marry them and things like that. And so I, on two different occasions, had people, you know, groping me in the street. There was one man who followed me all the way home, continuously groping me until I was finally able to get in the gate of my house.

Carah Burrell [00:42:42] And it's terrifying.

Lauren Rogers [00:42:44] And we stayed living there, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't a big deal to anyone. And this man knew where I lived, and it was. It was really hard to see that my safety wasn't important to my leaders.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Was that something you would have felt comfortable telling your mission president?

Lauren Rogers [00:43:05] Oh, no, absolutely not. But I did. I did tell.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Why absolutely not?

Lauren Rogers [00:43:11] Because there was so much shame in the culture. It was very much. The idea was, you will be protected by the Lord because you're a missionary if you're being obedient. So if something happens to you, you must not have been obedient. And now that, of course, wasn't taught by the mission president, but that was the culture of the mission. And so it Very much suppressed. Suppressed. People voicing legitimate concerns. It was just not a very safe environment to have dialogue about those hard things because, you know, it was seen as doubt and it was seen as not being a good missionary. And all I wanted was to please God. All I wanted was to be a good missionary. And so I complied to the culture of silence. You know, we weren't even allowed to eat dinner and that. And we walked all day, you know, so it's like our health was just not a priority for the leaders. And that was hard.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] There's an episode On Mormon Stories, episodes 976 to 979, entitled Experiencing Sexual Assault as a Missionary, Camille and Maddie. It's a. For those who want to kind of delve into the archives. It's a really important episode that just shows how two sisters were raped on their missions and how the church completely bungled and mistreated those women. So I'm going to refer people to that as one example.

Lauren Rogers [00:44:43] I've seen that episode. Yes, it's a really good one.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] I'll put that in the show notes.

Safety Risks and Dangerous Conditions for Missionaries

Lauren Rogers [00:44:48] And yeah, that's another huge passion of mine is just missions are so unsafe. They're physically unsafe. You know, they're not safe for your health or your mental health. And I would really, really love to see some reform in the church. And I have tiktoks about what I would like to see changed. There's a lot. But the biggest thing is reporting incidents needs to be something that's available to every missionary. Every instance of robbery, I mean, pickpocketing and robbery was very common in my mission as well. Like every instance of assault, those things need to be reported. The church needs actual statistics of, you know, how safe and not safe missions are in mission areas are because people are being traumatized and the church is letting it happen.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] I know, I know several people who had guns pointed at, you know, several missionaries who had guns pointed at their face, at their chest while they were missionaries. Again, being robbed, being beat, being assaulted. And it's actually a mission rule to not write home about the negative things. You're literally instructed in the white handbook. Don't tell your family about bad things that happen to you. Keep your letters home positive. Am I right about that or.

Lauren Rogers [00:46:03] Yes, you're correct about that. That's.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] So your parents wouldn't even know.

Lauren Rogers [00:46:06] Yeah, my parents never knew anything that was difficult about my mission. And when I got home and was utterly broken and shared some experiences with them, they were appalled and they just wish that I would have told them And I was like, I couldn't. I couldn't be disobedient. That wasn't. It wasn't an option for me to be disobedient, even if it was just common sense that I should tell my parents if things like this happen and no one. And no one's helping me.

Carah Burrell [00:46:34] We're kind of passionate here at Mormon Stories about informed consent on a variety of different topics. But even if I was a devout Mormon, I would want to know those statistics, those things that you were mentioning. I would want to know how my child's doing. And no matter how much I believed in the church, I would be passionate about their safety and them being able to feel like they're in a space that they can confront their mission president if they're feeling, you know, abused in any way. So I would just hope that any. Anybody who's passionate about the health and safety of their children and other missionaries around the world would want to see that too. And just from an informed consent perspective, that if you're going to be paying, what is it, $500 a month and that you're sending your child to a different part of the world, that you have an informed consent policy with the church, that you know that they're going to be taken care of and that these things are not going to be hidden, that they're not going to be abused or neglected.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] And the challenge is that the church provided statistics like that, like would go, your son or daughter is going to Brazil where you have a 20% chance of being assaulted with a gun and a 15% chance of being sexually assaulted. You know, what parents are going to let there. So the church has an incentive that. Not to disclose the risks, I think.

Lauren Rogers [00:47:48] Exactly. And that's, for me, one of the. Has been one of the hardest part of my deconstruction of my faith is, you know, I loved the church so much and I gave everything I had to the church. And they're supposed to be the good guys. They're supposed to be the ones protecting people and helping people. And I saw over and over them choose protecting themselves over protecting their members. And that's extremely disappointing for an organization that's supposed to be following Jesus, who, you know, is the example of perfect love. It's just. It's just horrifying that they continuously choose protecting themselves over protecting their members.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] So tell us the stories on your mission that illustrate that. So people know what happened to you specifically.

Lauren Rogers [00:48:37] Yeah, so I think probably the first story I'll tell is, you know, I already shared a Bit about how the culture was very much like, you know, you can't really complain about not feeling safe because that means you don't have enough faith in the promises of safety. And so it really discourages things like, you know, voicing real actual concerns, which is, like I said, super harmful. But I had one experience that I didn't even realize was awful until I got home from my mission and told my parents. But I was in my apartment late one night and we were in my area, we were very close to a very bad part and our apartment. We heard someone trying to get into our apartment and I lived with one other companionship. So there's four of us sisters there and we were told when we got to Chile that don't really call the police if there's something wrong. They're not gonna, they probably won't help you because you're American. They'll probably just try to extort you, you know, kind of thing. And so calling the police wasn't an option. We called our district leader and our zone leader and of course they were asleep because it was like 11 or no, it must have been past 11:30 because we didn't go to sleep till 11:30. And my mission at the schedule was shifted to be an hour later. But anyway, so I ended up calling my mission president who lived in my ward at the time. I was in the ward of my mission president. So he would have been a five, ten minute drive. And he didn't, he didn't come and check on us. He said a prayer for us over the phone and told us to go to sleep. We were on the first floor and our windows didn't lock and a man was trying. Well, we didn't know a man, but we heard someone trying to get into an apartment. That was. His response, was a prayer of safety. And I was just like, at the time, I was like, sweet. I guess if he feels good, then he has a spear that means I'm safe. But now I'm just appalled that like we could have all been murdered. Like he could have just come and check on us. Like any responsible adult would have just come to check on us. And he didn't do that. And that to me is just like, really illustrates just the dogmatic beliefs of, and the culture of the, the Mormon mission is that you're safe, don't worry, and doesn't matter how unsafe of a situation you're in.

Carah Burrell [00:51:09] Just challenging his prayer, that the fact that that would not be enough is a, is a challenge to his authority. I'm sure.

Lauren Rogers [00:51:17] Oh, exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:51:18] So, yeah, that's so hard to hear. I'm sure that happens a lot, especially when we're talking about, you know, blessings of anything that they think that it will has some kind of magic sauce in it, and people are kind of set up for some real devastating situations.

Lauren Rogers [00:51:32] That's really hard to hear. Yeah, that's what's hard is just looking back and realizing, like, you know, especially as a feminist, I'm like, I should have advocated for myself. I should have demanded that he come and check on me. But of course, I can't do that to myself because I was in a very different place. I 100% believed in his authority from God. And so I had no choice but to trust that he knew what he was doing. And, you know, that goes on to. To the next story, which, as, you know, as I said, I. I had a very difficult diet to follow. And so when I changed areas to more of an expensive area, it all of a sudden I couldn't afford my food. And I already wasn't allowed, you know, to eat dinner. Not that we weren't allowed to, but it was kind of discouraged, like, seen as a waste of time. Like, you should work through dinner if you were really a good missionary. And so, you know, not having enough money for food was a huge problem for someone who was starting to, at that point, experience some fatigue from how rigorous the mission schedule is. So I spoke with my mission president, and I asked him for more money so that I could eat. And I explained why about my diet and all of that. And instead of giving me more money, he told me that I had no business eating with members and so that I needed to eat at home from now on. So that was adding 30 meals a month that I needed to pay for for myself. And he didn't give me more money. And so I ran out of money even faster and didn't have any money for food. And members started to just. I told them, like, I'm so sorry, I can't go to your house. I have to be obedient. And so they would bring me food or they would bring me groceries. And these people were poor and they were giving me of their food. And the reasoning for my mission president is it was gonna be too much of a burden for them to cook for me. And so eventually I. You know, after a week or so of starving, I was like, no, I'm not going to starve. And so I just pulled my own. I asked my parents to transfer money into my account from my college savings account. Into my, my account that I could withdraw from. And I just bought my own money or, sorry, bought my own food. And I also wish I would have told my parents then because they said they would have sent me money, you know, I didn't have to pull my personal money from what I needed to go to college to eat when I was. I paid for most of my mission. Like, I was already paying the church for my food. Like, they should have just given me enough money to eat. So that's another example of how they just. They're more concerned with money than helping their missionaries be healthy and have enough food.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] It's such a sign of power that you're literally there as a volunteer to increase their membership and the money that they receive and, and you're paying for the privilege of growing their membership and the money that they end up bringing in, you're paying.

Carah Burrell [00:54:43] It's not like the stake president's personal bank account is affected. They have, like, such a pride about, like, I don't know, squeezing the most obedience, the strictest rules out of their missionaries when you probably would have been a much more effective missionary, quote, unquote, if he could have, you know, funneled a little bit more money from Salt Lake City corporate offices or whatever. My sister had a similar experience. My sister was vegan throughout her mission for health reasons. And same type of situation as. Well. Just. Yeah, like, especially the. I'm sure the calories that you're burning, you're probably walking, you didn't have a car. I'm assuming you didn't have a bike or anything.

Lauren Rogers [00:55:19] Heat all day, every day.

Carah Burrell [00:55:20] Yeah. So the amount of calories that you're burning off that you need to replenish and when you're not taking care of yourself day after day, week after week. Yeah. So then what did that manifest into?

Lauren Rogers [00:55:31] Well, I mean, for me and for a few other sisters that I personally know of, it manifested in an eating disorder. You know, I began to binge any moment I had to eat because I was like, this might be the last time I get to eat today. And so I would eat until I had horrible stomach pains. I was so full because I was so scared that I was just not going to have enough energy to finish my day, because that's what started to happen. By the evenings, I would be dragging my feet because the energy to lift my foot to take a step was too much. And so I. Yeah, it was, it was really. That was just really hard for me. Um, and at the end of my mission, I finally started eating dinner I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, I am a human being. I am not a machine. I'm going to eat dinner. And, you know, that was with my last companion and I, we started eating dinner and like, pushing back at the mission culture, which is ridiculous to think that eating dinner is pushing back. But, yeah, that's.

Carah Burrell [00:56:33] I don't want to go. Like, I. I want this to be a very nice episode for believing people. But all I'm thinking about is the. The documentary going clear. Have you seen that on Scientology? And I remember them talking about, like, just the way that the volunteers on the Sea Org would be like, begging to, you know, scrub the floor with a toothbrush kind of things where, like, there are people in organizations who have altruistic gold. I think we all do as human beings for our tribe, for the love of humanity, to do hard things. And that's a beautiful part, but at the cost of sacrificing, when that is just the. The tools of undue influence that John always likes to bring up that are employed when you're in such a vulnerable space away from your family. And yeah, these tools of undue influence that can be really utilized in kind of frightening ways. And I'm sure you're going to keep getting into more and more and more, but all I have is just this image of like, the way that people will scrub the floor with their toothbrush if they believe in a cause enough. And like, you'll stop eating dinner. You'll. You'll do all of these things. You'll like, almost kill yourself for this, this, quite honestly, this beautiful goal that you believe in, the salvation for the Chilean people. But if it comes at the cost of, you know, a lifelong detrimental effects of your health, there needs to be checks and balances to make sure that people are not set up for these types of, like, massive failures of this, this system, this missionary program. So that's just. That's the image that's running through my head right now. People on floor, toothbrushes.

Lauren Rogers [00:58:04] But that kind of describes how I was, I was, you know, sacrificing so much, but I was doing it enthusiastically. I was. I was happy to give God everything that I had. For sure. That's how I felt. Yeah, I guess I'll share Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Sacrifice is a virtue. And on a mission, it's even amplified. And so like the. It's almost glorified. The more you're in pain, the more you're suffering, in some sense, the more unhealthy and unsanitary the conditions, the more of a faithful, valiant missionary you are. I remember on my mission there was an area called Polo Cheek, which was like no electricity, no indoor plumbing, tarantulas and scorpions. And people would get sick with stomach illnesses that sometimes would last years after their mission. And that was the most honorable place to serve. And the missionaries there were viewed sort of like the, the Navy seals or the green berets of the mission. And those elders were the ones that were made assistance to the president. But. And some, you know, learned character, others were harmed in ways that, that had medium to long term consequences. And that's just part of this ethic of righteousness and sacrifice.

Mission Culture of Sacrifice and Suppressing Identity

Lauren Rogers [00:59:28] Yeah, absolutely. That 100% describes my mission culture. Sacrifice and pain and suffering and danger and health crises were glorified. And that's awful, but that's absolutely what the culture was.

Carah Burrell [00:59:42] And it makes you feel like the church is more true when you hear those stories, like you sacrificed what you did. What? There's this YouTube channel, I think it's called Lifey now, but it used to just have mission stories from people who had different missions all around the world. And they come on and somebody would interview them for their YouTube channel. And when I was Mormon, I would watch all of them. I thought missionary stories were fascinating. When you hear somebody went through something really, really difficult like getting malaria on their mission, or I remember hearing a story about somebody who was in Africa and they slept half of the day, half of the night on their, their mattress, but then when it got too hot because they didn't have air conditioning, they would roll and they'd sleep on the cold floor. And that's how they spent their mission, was sleeping half on the tile floor, half on their, on their mattress on the floor, over and over. And you hear those stories and you're like, they did it for this beautiful altruistic goal of like, bringing souls to Christ. And when you put it in that context, if it is true that that's a beautiful sacrifice that that person made and you kind of anything to do with like, their mental sanity and like their health is kind of on the back burner because you start out with the presupposition that it's true, and then the sacrifice is worth it. So I know to Mormons, like, it's a, it's an incredibly, like, uplifting story of the sacrifices that, that people go through. But if we back up and question not even if the church is true, but just if the system in place is just healthy for human flourishing whatsoever, if we can. We don't even need to go on the truth claims of the church. Is this healthy to set up our young people for. To be putting themselves in the situation? That's the question I think that we're going to be talking about the most. Is, like, the system at play here. The. The. The rights, quite honestly, the rights of young people who sign up, who volunteer their time. What are they entitled to? What. What do they have a right to when they. When they sacrifice so much for, again, this altruistic goal? That's. That can be beautiful in a lot of ways. So. So where does your story go from there?

Lauren Rogers [01:01:29] Yeah, I think there's two more short, impactful things that happened to me before I'll get into. Once I began to get really sick on my mission. And the first thing was I started to teach a. A lesbian couple. And I just fell in love with them. I. I thought they were amazing. I thought that their family was beautiful and the love they had for each other was beautiful. And. And, you know, I. I just so deeply cared about these two sisters that I was teaching. And, you know, on maybe our fourth lesson with them, I. We left the lesson, my companion and I. And I just cried because I was like, I. I can't. I can't keep teaching them because if they accept the gospel, their family will be torn apart. Like, they love each other. They are a family, and I can't do that to them.

Carah Burrell [01:02:31] They had kids as well?

Lauren Rogers [01:02:32] No, they didn't have kids, but. But, yeah, it was just heartbreaking. I told my companion that I couldn't do it anymore, and she, of course, was like, yes, you can, because it'll be better for them in the next life. And, you know, no concern about what this life. It's all concern about the next life. Any degree of suffering in this life is worth it to Mormons because of the glories of the next life. But.

Carah Burrell [01:02:58] And you had, like, continual lessons with them. They invited you back.

Lauren Rogers [01:03:00] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:03:01] Okay. So they were, like, interested.

Lauren Rogers [01:03:02] Yeah, they were interested. And I told my companion, I'm like, I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not teaching them. And she convinced me and said that we should, and I agreed. But then I was a senior companion, and I just didn't book any more appointments, and I. Yeah, it was just. It was too painful for me that the issues I had with the church's stances on LGBTQ people was just too. Too much for me to bear the suffering of having to teach them. And. And, you know, my. Like I mentioned, my brother was gay, and he had come out to me before my mission. And he had gotten home from his mission, right. Right before I left on mine. And so I was on my mission when he was actually excommunicated for being gay. And that was another huge event in my mission. It just absolutely broke my heart. And I felt, I felt like I lost my eternal family. I felt like I was there in Chile trying to help other people get an eternal family. And I had lost that myself because, you know, it's, it wouldn't be complete without my brother. And my brother couldn't be in the, in the celestial kingdom with me anymore. And so that was just so, so hard for me to, to deal with. But, you know, it made me, you know, dig into the gospel even more and say, like, if I can't have it, at least other people can, you know, and really try to, to get more converts. Even though now I look back and say, thankfully I didn't have any converts. So.

Carah Burrell [01:04:42] Can I ask you a question? I hope you're not embarrassed to answer this because I have a very embarrassing answer as well. So you said that you stopped booking appointments and maybe your companion had the idea that if people try hard enough, they can change their sexual orientation with the gospel. Did you have that opinion?

Lauren Rogers [01:05:00] No, I didn't, I didn't have that opinion. And I was very vocal to my companion, making sure she understood. When she told me that, that I'm like, that's not true.

Carah Burrell [01:05:09] Okay.

Lauren Rogers [01:05:10] It's not a choice. Like, if it was a choice, you know, why in the world would, would people choose that when they're Mormon? Like, that's just asking for pain, you know?

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

Carah Burrell [01:05:22] Got it.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Okay. So you stop teaching the lesbian couple.

Lauren Rogers [01:05:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] And that's kind of compassionate.

Lauren Rogers [01:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Because you'd only set them up for trouble.

Lauren Rogers [01:05:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] I mean, for those who don't know they're going to be asked for baptism, you have to be interviewed by a missionary. But there are certain sins that if they've been committed, like abortion, and I'm saying sins in quotes for those who can't see, like abortion or being in a same sex relationship or murder. Those are the three things. So again, being LGBT is comparable to murder. Then you would have to like do an interview with the mission president or whatever and they would just nothing about

Carah Burrell [01:06:05] if you've ever like, molested someone or sex.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] No, no, no, that's not, that's, that's not a question. I don't think so. Oh. I mean, unless I'm, Unless they've changed somebody.

Carah Burrell [01:06:13] Tell us in the comments, but go on.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] No, no, no. It's just. It's just. It's just the gays we're worried about most. So anyways, they would have been put through the ringer and embarrassed. And. And so it's.

Lauren Rogers [01:06:23] It's actually separate.

John Dehlin [01:06:25] What's that? And forced to separate if they wanted to get baptized. So it was actually a very compassionate move on your part to drop them.

Lauren Rogers [01:06:31] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:06:32] I think you know how, like, every member of missionary, and you're always asked when you're Mormon, like, do you have anybody that might want to hear the missionary's message and stuff? And you have to, like, go through your Rolodex of, like, who do I want to, like, annoy them? Who's gonna, like. You know, thankfully, in la, most of my friends were lesbians. And I was like, you're not gonna do it. This is not gonna fit. So it's actually. It's a pretty good. It's a pretty good, like, fail safe. Like, what are you gonna do? Oh, nobody's interested. Everybody are disqualified. Darn it. They don't have to sit through the missionary lessons.

Lauren Rogers [01:07:00] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:07:01] Yeah.

Lauren Rogers [01:07:02] Yeah. And then after that, that's when my health really started to decline. I started getting sick a lot.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] How much of that do you think was kind of stress? Oh, and depression and anxiety about being in a mission, kind of like advocating for something you didn't necessarily feel great about.

Lauren Rogers [01:07:21] Absolutely. I think that that had a huge, you know, portion of. Of why that happened. And not to mention, you know, lack of good nutrition and overworking, you know, being exposed to the elements all day, every day, that definitely contributed. And this. It was just like my sicknesses just started to get really intense. Like, I would be unable to get out of bed. Like, I needed help from my companion to walk to the bathroom.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] I.

Lauren Rogers [01:07:50] And I had conversations with my mission president about how sick I was. At one point, you know, I. I had been sick for, I think, a week and literally unable to get out of bed even to feed myself. And my companion at the time was. She won't watch this. She was crazy. And I. She didn't even. She abandoned me basically. All day I would just shiver and be cold because she would take the heater. We didn't have central heating. We had a little space heater. She would take the heater away from me and go do arts and crafts in our study room while I. Oops, sorry. While I, you know, froze to death and was sick and couldn't get out of bed in the bedroom. And she wouldn't feed me because I couldn't get out of bed to eat. And so I just, I wouldn't eat until the sisters who lived with us would get home at 10 o' clock and then they would feed us or feed me. And so it's just, it was just a week of me not being able to sleep because I was in so much pain. And, and finally when I was able to speak to the mission president, I told him how sick I was and I was expecting him to call an ambulance for me because I thought I was dying. And once again he said a prayer for me over the phone when he could have once again at least come and seen me. He was 10 minutes away. He could have given me a blessing, but he didn't, he gave me a prayer and, and the, he didn't say this, but I, the sense I got from him was, you've been sick long enough, like, let's get better, have faith and keep working. And so that's what I did. My pushed through.

Carah Burrell [01:09:29] And also for context, a mission president's job is pretty much just to take care of the mission. It's not like he has another job he has to go to.

Lauren Rogers [01:09:35] Yeah, no, he didn't have, he's pretty

Carah Burrell [01:09:37] much just there to do that.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] So, and, and if we going to try and like be tough on systems and not people, you know, he's in charge of like 100, 150 companionships, 2 to 300 missionaries, all spread out throughout the super large area. I'm not making excuses for him. There are mission presidents and their wives that are more or less compassionate, more or less abusive. But I, I, you know, but there's this weird combination of not really valuing science, not really valuing medicine, and being in developed countries where you're trying to do everything on the cheap. And then, you know, who, who wants to be responsible for 200 to 300 people? And I'm just going to say something that may or may not be distressing to you, but I'm just going to be fully honest. Amongst the patriarchy of a mission, there was always kind of this, you know, gossip about the sister missionaries that were problems. It's like, oh, Sister Jones, she gets sick all the time or stays in bed all the time, or she's really emotional and without meaning to be like judgmental or offensive. And it's all without a really, not just a lack of understanding about mental health but like, but without a care or concern because virtue and a mission. Like, I'm thinking about my mission. I think there was a three month period where I had diarrhea. Excuse me, Every single day. I was super sick. My stomach had sharp, severe pains. Heavy gas and gas. Just imagine what walking around all day with heavy gas and diarrhea is like. As a missionary, it's often once or twice, you know, on an outing, you'd have to go back to your office to change your garments, like, but it was a virtue. You never stayed home. You just pushed through and you did the Lord's work and you worked extra hard. So there's this again, this ethic of pushing through on your mission and a disrespect for the weak or the fragile that are sick a lot or that stay home a lot because you're supposed to push through if you're sick. And so I can just assure you that between the mission president, maybe his wife, and the missionary leadership on the mission, it was just like, oh my gosh, Sister Rogers, she's sick again. You know, I don't know. Did you ever feel that? Did you even know that was happening?

Lauren Rogers [01:11:57] Yeah, no.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] How does that help your mental and physical health?

Lauren Rogers [01:12:00] Yeah, no, it definitely didn't. And, and I'll agree that, that it, it is the system, not the person. Like, I don't, Well, I don't 100% blame my mission president. I think that he was irresponsible, but I understand why. I understand that he truly believed in the dogma that was unhealthy of the mission culture. And, and he truly believed that a prayer would be enough. And so I don't put all the blame on him. And, and yes, I, I agree that there, there was this sense that you did need to push through and that, yeah, sisters were problems if they were anything but successful and silent. You know, like, I, I had several issues with mission leaders because I spoke up, you know, when, when they did something that was incorrect. You know, I, I knew the gospel backwards and forwards. I, I knew all of the priesthood protocols and I, I knew all of that. And I, I had no shame in saying, hey, that's not the way things are supposed to be done. And you know, that was, that caused a lot of judgment from my leaders, a lot of, Yeah, I think by the end of my mission, I probably was seen as a problem sister because one, I was getting sicker and sicker and two, because I, you know, I didn't, I took some things laying down, but I didn't take everything laying down. I did, you know, stand up for, especially the other sisters. I was over at one point when I was A sister training leader. I, you know, was defending some of the sisters who were being berated by the zone leaders. And I was very, very vocal of saying, like, no, like, I'm the one who's doing exchanges with these sisters and I'm the one telling you that they're good missionaries and they're being obedient. Like, I don't care that they don't have baptisms. Like, you're not going to rebuke them or. He was asking me to rebuke them. I said, I'm not going to rebuke them. Yeah. For not being obedient, to not trying hard enough. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. And he got the assistance involved, that zone leader, to, to correct me. And that was just devastating because, you know, it's expected that a, that you submit to your leaders even when they're wrong. And it's expected that you just say sorry and that you're humble and, you know, if you disagree with your leaders, then you're prideful. And that's so dangerous because one of the sisters that he was asking me to rebuke later went home early, was severely depressed. I can only imagine the damage that would have happened if I would have rebuked her for her lack of success. Like, that would have been seriously damaging. And, and so, yeah, it's dangerous that people that, you know, 18 year olds had authority over me and could tell me what to do. And if I didn't do it, then, you know, I was shamed. Like, that's just not a good setup to have. It's just a recipe for disaster.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Yeah. I'm so sorry. It's not fun.

Lauren Rogers [01:15:09] That's okay. Yeah, I got over it.

Long-Term Health Consequences After Returning Home

John Dehlin [01:15:13] Another thing that people don't know is when you. Okay, there's this weird combination of. And this is just bringing back all sorts of memories because I had a traumatic mission for sure. When you arrive in a foreign country as a Mormon missionary, they take your passport.

Lauren Rogers [01:15:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] You literally. They put it in. And I think their justification is that

Lauren Rogers [01:15:31] they don't want you to lose it.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] They don't want you to lose it because then you can't go home. So they put it in a safe. But the net effect of that is you can't come home even if you want to. Yeah, you would have to go to the mission president. But then the mission presidents, they're. They get demerits from their leadership if too many missionaries go home. So the, the area authorities and the general authorities are always pressuring mission presidents to never let anyone come home early. And you're looked at as a worse mission president if people go home early. So there's this weird sense of you don't have your own control of your own money. Month to month, you get an allotment that's way too small. You can't. You don't have control of your own passport. And then if you get sick, you don't have proper medical care. They're trying to do everything.

Lauren Rogers [01:16:16] You don't have your insurance card, so you can't get.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] You don't have insurance card, and they don't want you to go home. So there's this denial about whether you're sick and whether you're really sick and whether it's just a bad attitude or laziness. And then again, this culture of work really hard and work through, push through the pain. It's a death, I don't want to say death trap. It's a very negative trap for legitimate physical or mental health illnesses.

Lauren Rogers [01:16:46] Yeah, absolutely. I should, 100% should have gone home early from my mission. The last three months of my mission, I was so extremely ill. And, and, and yeah, you know, it's. If I would have been able to get proper medical care and go home early and rest, then I am sure that I would not be disabled. I am sure that I never would have, you know, developed me. And, you know, my doctors agree with me that I, that the reason I became so ill was because there was that shame of it wasn't an option to go home early. Just like going to the doctor wasn't really an option. Like, the mission president never preached against it, never told us we couldn't go to the doctor. It just culturally wasn't an option. You just didn't ask to go to the doctor. You informed them when you were sick, but they got to tell you what the proper treatment was. And in my case, the proper treatment was a prayer over the phone. And so, so, yeah, I just kept pushing. And at the very end of my mission, that's when it got really, really bad. I was severely fatigued all the time. I found out after my mission that I had actually contracted mono from one of the other sisters I lived with who had mono. I don't know how she got it, but I must have shared a drink with her or something. I don't know. But I got it from her. And, you know, if those of you who don't know when you have mono, like, the treatment is lay in bed and don't get up for four weeks. Like you have to, have to rest. And if you don't, it can worsen your symptoms and even prolong your symptoms up to a year. And so obviously I didn't get to rest. When I got mono, I worked the same amount of days. I worked every single day, 16 plus hour days, walking all day. And that just really destroyed my body. Towards the end of the mission, just walking was difficult. And my poor companion, I walked so extremely slow and it was the fastest I could walk. And I felt like such a lazy missionary, but all I could do was just to keep shuffling my feet forward. I, you know, in the last three months of my mission, I. Shoes that had lasted me like way long just were gone because I couldn't pick my feet up. I was just dragging my feet everywhere. And you know, it was just so much neglect. And I was treated as if I was trunky.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] Tell us what that means.

Lauren Rogers [01:19:26] So trunky is like at the end of your mission, it's like when you get more lazy or don't, don't follow the rules as well because you're just ready to go home. And I was ready to go home, but I didn't let that affect my, my obedience or my diligence or my righteousness. Like, I was devoted to, to being the best missionary I could be, even when I was so sick I could barely walk. And you know, and you know, I, I started having lots of feelings by that time, you know, that. Sorry, I keep saying, you know, by that time I started to feel like my mission president was disappointed in me. He hadn't offered me the medical care I needed, had denied me enough money, and, you know, I had been demoted from being a sister training leader after I had that incident with the, the assistants and the zone leader. And so I felt like something's off. He has abandoned me. And so I emailed him when I only had a few weeks left in my mission. And I asked him, I said, like, seems like you're disappointed and I trust in your discernment as my leader. Like, I know I don't have that much left in my mission, but I want to be the best missionary I can be. So please tell me, like, what I can do, what I've done wrong so that I can be a better missionary. And he didn't respond. And I thought, that's okay. He probably just wants to speak to me in person. Like, I'm going to have my exit interview soon. It's okay. He'll address it there. And then when I got to the interview, he started to speak about, I believe, his brother in law, who didn't serve a very faithful mission and felt guilty about it for 25 years after he served his mission and felt all this shame and all this regret. And he's telling this big long story instead of asking me questions in an interview. And I felt extremely uncomfortable because it felt like it was going in a very hurtful place. And then he shared that finally his brother in law was able to repent of his unfaithful mission service and he could feel peace. And he told me that he didn't want me to experience that type of shame or regret for not serving faithfully. And so he invited me to repent and extended that invitation. And I, you know, being an obedient missionary, accepted. I accept sobbingly. I accepted that. I said, yes, I will repent, having no idea what on earth he was talking about, because I was perfectly obedient. And then he said, great, do you have any questions for, for me before I end the interview? And I was like, what did I do? I asked him, I referenced my email. I'm like, what is it that you think I need to be doing better? And he didn't answer my question, but instead went on a monologue about who my future husband was going to be. Kind of prophesied to me about my future husband, and then ended the interview. And I, you know, walked out to my companion and I said, I need to go to the bathroom. And I went to the bathroom and just sobbed for probably 30 minutes. And she thought I was crying because I didn't want to go home. And finally I told her, like, he told me I needed to repent. And she was like, for what? Like, she was my companion. She knew how obedient and how diligent I was. And I just said, I don't know. He didn't tell me. And I. And that was the moment that I. That really broke me on my mission. I was just like, I gave every, like, my health is crap and I can barely walk. And I did that because I love God and the things I get is my mission. You're paying, I'm paying.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] And it's a year and a half of your life.

Lauren Rogers [01:23:18] Yeah. And the things I got was repent. And so. And this, this will show you how, you know, dogmatically obedient I was that night. You know, I got on my knees and I was like, well, I committed to my mission president that I was going to repent. And I have to obey. Like, I have to follow through with my Commitment. And so I knelt on the ground for hours because I couldn't. Just trying to think of something I could repent for. And then ultimately I realized, yes, I have something. And I repented for having bad feelings for my mission president. And then I went to bed with a clear conscience. And, you know, I knew I had lived my mission. I knew how obedient I was, and I knew that any God I loved, the God that I knew was. Was proud of me. And so at that point, I was like, I have to just not care what this mission president who's wrong thinks of me and accept that God is pleased with my effort, that I gave him everything that I had. And so I went home and was very ready to take off that badge. I, you know, got released as soon as I could, and I was actually released with my sister. We served our missions at the same time, since we're the same age. And I remember my stake president, he was, you know, there to release me or whatever. And he said he was going to say a closing prayer, and then as we could keep wearing our badges until the end of the night, but after, like, once we went to bed, we needed to take off our badge because we weren't, like, authorized to wear it anymore. And then he offered a prayer. And I immediately took. Took it off and put it on the table. Like, during the prayer. I was so ready to get it off. And my mom, when she opened her eyes after the prayer, saw it on the table and, like, gasped. She was like, lauren, like, why'd you take it off so fast? Because she, at that point, didn't know how traumatic my mission had been. And. And, yeah, it was just that started a phase of, like, deep depression and lots of doubt.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] When I started my mission, I think my brother, if I'm remembering right, he took me to the airport to say goodbye, because you could back then. And he said to me. He literally said this to me. He said, you have two years to serve and the rest of your life to think about it. And, you know, and you're also sort of told that, like, your service is going to make the difference as to whether or not some people obtain salvation and make it to the celestial kingdom and others don't. And so the level of guilt and shame that can be heaped upon you is just so severe sometimes, depending on how scrupulous and conscientious you are. If you're one of those missionaries that just doesn't really believe it and you just take everything with a grain of salt and blow it off and have fun, and you don't take it seriously. You don't care. But if you're, like, one of the really scrupulous ones, it really weighs on you. And then when you add to the fact that. That you believe that your mission president literally, again, speaks to and for God. One of the most radical things I think I've ever said on Mormon Stories podcast is that it should be illegal to claim to speak for God. And that's heretical because that's every religion ever. Right. Except for the fact that I just think it's too much power.

Lauren Rogers [01:26:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:40] It's too much power to give any human to. To believe that they tell you what God's will is. I think that crosses into the level of overt abuse.

Lauren Rogers [01:26:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:54] Because when your mission president is telling you, Lauren Rogers, that you need to repent and he's disappointed in you, who's really telling you that?

Carah Burrell [01:27:04] God.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] Right? Am I right? Am I exaggerating?

Lauren Rogers [01:27:07] Exactly. He was supposed to be speaking for God. And that. Yeah, it was heartbreaking for someone that's

John Dehlin [01:27:13] conscientious and trying their hardest. What's. What does that feel like?

Lauren Rogers [01:27:17] It feels terrible. I felt like, you know, I just. The only thing that gave me comfort was a scripture in the Book of Mormon that talks about, like, you know, the Son of Man descends below them all and. And that he was considered a devil, you know, and so realizing that, like, this is. At the time I thought, like, this makes me more like Christ. Like, that people think incorrect things about me. Like, he was a Son of God and they thought he was a devil. They called him a devil. And I served a faithful mission, and my mission president thinks that I didn't. And I had to be like, that's just okay. Like, that's a humiliating, horrifying experience, but it brings me closer to Jesus, so it's okay. And that's how I rationalized that abuse away when I was still believing.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] Yeah. The other thing I'll just say is that it can become really serious. My. One of. One of the most traumatic moments of my life was finding out that my roommate from my freshman year at BYU, his name was Monty McCotter, and we knew each other in high school. We became BYU roommates. Really loved the guy. Funny, great guy. Goes to, I believe, Puerto Rico. On his mission, he was hit by a car and killed. And missionaries die pretty much every month. A Mormon missionary somewhere dies at least. And so the stakes are really high. So if the church is true. If the church is really true, then, yeah, like, you know, If Islam's true, then those men who flew those planes into the Twin Towers are heroes and they'll have 50 virgins when they die. And they're doing what Allah wants. But if that church isn't true, then those deaths are in vain. And if the church isn't true, then what you suffered on your mission that is still affecting you today was just an abuse. An organization that claims to be one thing, but really isn't, and people making these severe sacrifices monetarily time wise, and then mental and physical health, making these huge sacrifices for something that again, with informed consent isn't what it claims to be. And then that all of a sudden makes what's a noble sacrifice kind of like abusive or deadly, you know, and now that the church is ramping up, you know, the church is like, you know, we just did a recent episode with former Mormon Bishop Simon Southerton from Australia talks about DNA in the Book of Mormon and how the church is shrinking all over the world now that the church is like dying in Mexico and Latin America and the Philippines and Asia and the United States, except for the birth rate. The church is playing a numbers game where they're sending all the missionaries to Africa and they're sending all these missionaries to sub Saharan Africa. You know, the branches and the wards and the stakes and the temples are all going bananas in Africa. But what's the unforeseen cost of the physical and mental health of those missionaries serving in Ghana and Kenya and South Africa and Zimbabwe and all these countries where the conditions possibly are even way worse than what you and I experience in Latin America? I would love to do right now. I'm calling on any sub Saharan Africans who have joined the church who want to come on warmer stories and talk about joining the church from sub Saharan Africa. I want to interview you and anyone who served a mission in Sub Saharan Africa and had a rough time of it. I want to hear your stories as well. So that's a call out right now. Anyway. That's a little bit more of my, my rant, my little monologue about unsafe missions. They can and often are deadly. Whether it's physical or mental issues, disease, or even unsafe living conditions like, you know, leaky gas pipes that end up exploding, car accidents, people getting run over or again, murder or assault or rape. It happens every day. Every day in the world. A Mormon missionary is either killed, raped, assaulted, or neglected in some serious way. And I don't mean to laugh about it, but sometimes I laugh about things that are traumatic.

Lauren Rogers [01:31:31] Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that that's such a big issue in the church. And, and I think believing members are starting to see that as well. I mean, I know my parents, who are very believing, completely understand and are on my side about my mission experience. And I just hope that the church can wise up a bit about how they treat their missionaries and, and the system. Because that's the thing is, yes, there was lots of different people who treated me poorly or neglected me on my mission, but it's because of the system. It's because that's how it's set up. It's set up to suppress doubt or suppress, you know, concerns and to glorify, like we said, unsafe situations and things that have detrimental consequences. So, yeah, I completely agree. It's awful and it needs to be fixed.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Yeah. Okay, so you get home and what do you want to say about the aftermath?

Chronic Illness, Priesthood Blessings, and Broken Promises

Lauren Rogers [01:32:40] Yeah, I think for me, I was blessed again with health. When I got home from my mission, I received a priesthood blessing and I was blessed that I would heal from this illness. I hadn't been diagnosed yet, but I was blessed that I would heal upon my faithfulness. And like I said, upon my faithfulness, that's such a abusive term because then when you don't get healed, then it's your fault. And that's just not true. There's just nothing that I did wrong to be disabled. Like, I'm sure several people in the comments might argue I should have advocated my for myself more. I should have demanded to go to the doctor or I should have went. Walked myself to the doctor. But that just wasn't a possibility. You know, I didn't know where the doctors were. I didn't know how to get there. I didn't have enough money to pay. I didn't have my insurance cards, and I didn't want to be disobedient. My mission president told me what to do, and so I did it. And so there was so much shame. I didn't want anyone to know how sick I was because there was that assumption that they were going to think that I was disobedient and that I wasn't protected because I wasn't a good missionary. And it was so heartbreaking when I felt my mission president thought that about me. I couldn't bear my friends and family thinking that about me. And so I, you know, hid. I hid my illness from everyone but my immediate family. I was on bed rest when I got home for three months. And so my immediate family knew. My sister was the one who had to bring me food and help Me walk to the bathroom. And so she knew how sick I was, and my parents knew how sick I was, and. But I didn't want anyone else to know because of how embarrassed I was that, you know, I just felt like I didn't have enough faith, and that's why I wasn't healed and people were going to think I was disobedient. And so even once I got my diagnosis, which is a mouthful, it's myalgic encephalomyelitis, which is a chronic illness with no cure. Basically means I have about 10% of the normal energy that a person would have. And so my entire life, I is focused on expending the least amount of energy possible. So I have to use a wheelchair if I'm going to be walking more than five or 10 minutes. You know, if I am fatigued, I lose my balance, so I have to use a cane. I have an even more strict diet because everything makes my fatigue or my headaches or my chronic pain worse. And, you know, I could go on that. There's lots of other symptoms, but it just.

John Dehlin [01:35:09] So you came home and got a diagnosis?

Lauren Rogers [01:35:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] How long did it take?

Lauren Rogers [01:35:12] It took. So I got a diagnosis of mono pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] Yeah, that's.

Lauren Rogers [01:35:20] But it took a few years for me actually to be diagnosed with, you know, because there's so another. It's also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. People are kind of moving away from that name just because it's kind of a misnomer. That's only one of the, like, nine symptoms. And so. And it's. There's also a lot of stigma around it. A lot of people think it's like a fake disease when it's very well documented to be an actual physiological issue with your cells. Like, they. They have even, like, have tests for it now. Like, it's. It's not fake, but there's kind of a stigma that it's like, all in your head. And so that was another reason I was kind of ashamed to tell people, because I. I was too afraid at that time of what people would think of me. And. And so, yeah, it took a few years, but I did get the diagnosis eventually that my mono, because mono is one of the. The triggers, I guess you could say that there's several different ways you can get chronic fatigue syndrome, or me and a virus or overexerting yourself. And I had both can cause it. And so, you know, every time you get a virus, you're not going to get chronic fatigue syndrome. And so that's why my doctor Was very confident in saying that because you didn't rest because you worked through such a hard virus. You developed me. And so the diagnosis brought peace because I knew I wasn't crazy and it wasn't in my head because, you know, it took a while to get diagnosed. But it's also devastating because like I said, there is no cure and there is no treatment. They can give me painkillers, but painkillers come with their own side effects. And that's really it.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] That's really go away over time.

Lauren Rogers [01:37:04] It can go in remission. It never goes away, but it can go in remission. I know several people who have had remissions of like 10 years before it came back, or sometimes some people are lucky enough to have it go into remission completely and never come back. So that's always the goal. That's what I will hope will happen to me as I am always trying new treatments. There's lots of different treatments available that are supposed to supposedly help, but none of them like, are like FDA approved. This is the cure type thing. It's just like, you can try this, this might help you, you know. So that's kind of where I am at this point in my life, is trying to heal and take care of myself, you know, because I didn't for years after my mission as I was trying to hide it. So I didn't use a wheelchair because then people would know that I, you know, was, was sick. And so I would just. I went to BYU right after my mission and I would, you know, walk to the Life Science building because I was south of campus, and then take the elevator up because I couldn't climb the stairs. It was way too difficult for me to climb those huge long stairs up to campus. And I would just walk. I would be late to all my classes because of how slowly I had to walk. I would have to call in sick a lot to my job. But I did end up telling my boss that about my condition, so she was understanding. And I would just come home every day, like smiling, pretending like everything was happening as I walk, walk down the street. And then the second I was inside my house, I would literally collapse onto my couch. And that's just like how I lived for years. And yeah, I was. It was really hard to know that my, the reward for my faithful service was, you know, feeling like death all the time.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] Yeah, I'm so sorry. I was going to say this reliance on priesthood blessings is so problematic. Like if, you know, if somebody had a crystal ball and claimed to be able to like, see some other part of the world through a crystal ball. Or if, you know, if they were a witch doctor that claimed that they could rub, burn something or rub some herbs together and cure illnesses, and they were like, claiming to be legitimate medical practitioners, they would be arrested or put in jail or whatever. But Mormons to this day are still led to believe that there's this priesthood power that actually can be trusted and relied upon. And there's no evidence at all that that priesthood blessings work. If they did, then every Mormon priesthood holder right now needs to go to every hospital near them and cure everybody with every disease. You know, make a business out of it. Like, like, you know, priesthood power does not heal people. People, Mormons die of cancer and they die of illnesses and you know, you know, they don't cure colds, it doesn't cure flus, it doesn't cure cancer. It's just a prayer that people say to kind of make themselves feel good. That's all it is. But, but when you're on the faithful end of it, you make meaningful, significant life decisions, sometimes at the expense of your own safety or, well, being, trusting that something's actually happening when it's not. And I don't think we talk about that enough because we're afraid to be disrespectful of people's religious beliefs and we don't want to be super negative or critical of people's sacred religious beliefs. But it's a problem because it's not real. And people's health is real. Their physical, mental health is real. And it's a problem that we need to address because it's irresponsible to, for the church to keep teaching its membership that these blessings actually heal and work. You know, there are going to be Mormons that say, no way. I got a blessing and I felt better. Well, guess what? You don't know whether you would have felt better if you hadn't had the blessing. You just don't. That's why we have science to be able to demonstrate that. And the best proof that Mormon priesthood blessings don't work is that no amputee has ever been healed. There's not one instance ever of an amputee being healed or somebody who is decapitated or, you know, the only types of healings that happen are where there's a plausible misdiagnosis occurring or where spontaneous healing or actual physical healing is possible. So, yes, a cold, a flu, maybe even some sort of cancer diagnosis or misdiagnosis, some sort of condition that maybe the Doctor didn't fully understand or that would have gone away on its own. Yes, a blessing would have happened in the middle of that experience. And so you can attribute that to your own healing, but there is no evidence that Mormon priesthood blessings actually heal people. None. Ever. And so again, that's a rant. But I think it's, I think it affects people's lives.

Lauren Rogers [01:42:28] Yeah, no, absolutely. I, this morning I was counting up and I was blessed five different times given a priesthood blessing where I was promised that my illness would, would go away. And one of the times was even like, I rebuke the healness and command you to be healed. And it was like this crazy powerful experience. Like spiritually I, I felt all the fiery feelings and nothing happened, nothing changed. And, and yeah, I think that it's, it's irresponsible, but it's also like, no offense but like, really dumb. Like it's just such a circular, circular reasoning. Like if I'm healed, then it's God and if I'm not healed, then it's also God. Like, it doesn't make sense. It's just confirmation bias when it works. And when it doesn't work, you weren't supposed to be healed. And it's just like so clearly not logical now that I'm on the other side of it. But back then it was, yeah, it was very real of like, you just have to trust. And if you are sick, it's because God wants you to be sick. And what does that do to someone's psyche? To think that God wants me to be sick because I was promised, I was promised the healing and I know I was faithful enough so he wants

John Dehlin [01:43:39] me to be sick or you didn't have enough faith, which again is that blame reversal thing where you just feel worse about something that is totally out of your control. And then lately I think the brethren have caught on that people realize these priesthood blessings don't work and it becomes a, a cause of lack of loss of faith. For some people to get this priesthood blessing and then have it not come true that they've started this rhetoric of have the faith to not be healed. That's a general authority talk that's happened in the past five or 10 years where they're basically saying God's power is everywhere, he'll heal you whenever you get better, and that's that. God gets that credit. But whenever, like you said, whenever you, a priesthood blessing doesn't work, it's either you, you didn't have enough faith or like you said, God wants you to be sick or you need to have the faith to not be healed. It's this circular, makes no sense, harms everybody, helps no one other than the church. It helps the church because that circular logic always is reinforcing your faith or your shame.

Lauren Rogers [01:44:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] So if you're grateful that you got healed, you attribute that to the church, so you like the church more. And then if you don't get healed, you're broken, you're wrong, try harder, do it better, and the church benefits because you give it even more devotion than you had before. So it's a sick circular cluster, something.

Lauren Rogers [01:45:07] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:45:08] Yeah.

Lauren Rogers [01:45:09] No, I feel like, you know, I have to recognize the positive side of it, too. It can also give people peace, like.

John Dehlin [01:45:16] Or hope.

Lauren Rogers [01:45:17] Yeah, it gave me hope because it's like I had been promised healing and I knew I was being faithful. Like, I was obeying all the commandments and doing everything I was supposed to do. And so I did have that hope that, like, one day I will be healed. And. And that did bring me peace. And. And that was a huge thing in my deconstruction phase. That caused me a lot of fear of, like, how will I ever have hope? Like, if it's not true, then I'm going to be miserable all the time. And if it's not true, then I became disabled for nothing. And if it's not true, I don't get to be resurrected. That was my only hope, that I would get a resurrected body and not have this broken body anymore. And so it did bring me a lot of hope and peace. But on the other side, I have found significantly more hope and joy and happiness in not believing those things and believing that this is the life I have and I need to enjoy it and. And find ways to experience life in my new disabled state. Because before, it was just all about lamenting the experiences I was losing. You know, lamenting that I can't run anymore. I was a runner before. I loved to exercise. And that's. I can't do that. I can't be active. I can't chase my daughter around and play with her. I can't push her on the swing or all of those things. It was something that I just lamented that loss, and I was so sad about that loss. And now I can. Instead of doing that, I can focus on what can I do. I can give her rides in my wheelchair. Like, she can sit on my lap and my husband can push, and she loves it, and it's so fun. And. And those are experiences I was missing before because I was so focused on the next life. I was so focused on being faithful so that I could receive that, you know, that reward, that resurrection. Sorry, I forgot the word. And so, you know, I. This is pretty dark, but I found myself as a believing member after I became disabled, wishing to die and thinking I was happy. I longed for death because it meant I wouldn't be sick anymore. And don't know how I thought that I was happy because I was happy in looking forward to. To what I would receive, but I wasn't happy in the now, in what I was experiencing. And. And since leaving the church, I have been able to experience so much joy in the now and, you know, not care that I'll never be healed because I have an awesome life. You know, I have an amazing family. I love my daughter with all my heart. I love my husband. I love the life we built together.

Coming to Terms with Being a Lesbian in the Church

John Dehlin [01:48:11] And we just skipped a whole bunch of stuff.

Lauren Rogers [01:48:13] Yeah, we did, but that's my future. But, yeah, it's just. I'm able to.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] Let's go back and take us to. Let's go back. And so. No. So you go back to BYU and you get your diagnosis.

Carah Burrell [01:48:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] And you're disabled.

Lauren Rogers [01:48:28] Yes, but I'm hiding it and full of shame. And dating was very difficult for me because of my sexuality and because.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] Talk about that. Did you start dating?

Lauren Rogers [01:48:39] I started dating and I found that it was just awful. I hated it. It was so scary. I was just nervous. I never had fun on any of my dates. I was just like an awkward, nervous shell of a human. And I. I thought I was just shy, but I just wasn't into guys, you know, Like, I just. That's not what I wanted to do. And I. I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't realize that, you know, it just wasn't an option for me to be gay. Because that didn't serve me. That didn't help me in any way. Yeah, exactly. And so it was. It was just impossible for me to realize that I was gay while I was in the church. And I. Yeah, I just. I also.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] I just have to note this, that if you're not allowed to have sex before you're married, how in the world could you discover your sexuality?

Lauren Rogers [01:49:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:49:35] Right. You just think, well, maybe we'll talk more about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a thing, right?

Carah Burrell [01:49:41] Pornography. You can't know what turns you on. Whatever. So whatever shames you the most is probably where your sexuality is.

Lauren Rogers [01:49:49] Exactly. But, yeah, no, I. Yeah, you just

John Dehlin [01:49:53] think, oh, I guess I'm. This is how I. This is what.

Lauren Rogers [01:49:57] This is what I must be.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] This is what it. Well, it's like, this is what being a heterosexual must feel like, is whatever I'm actually feeling.

Lauren Rogers [01:50:04] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] And in your case, you were feeling

Lauren Rogers [01:50:06] what I was feeling anxiety and terror around men. And I was like, that must be butterflies, you know, And I was feeling comfort and warmth and, you know, good things around women. And of course, I didn't label that as a crush because I was straight, so that couldn't be a crush. And so my language was just, that's a close friend, you know, like, I. I love that person platonically. And that was just the language. That was the paradigm that I had. And so there was no room for me to discover that I was anything but straight, especially because, you know, there's a difference between. And this is something I learned recently between, like, romantic attraction and sexual attraction. And I did, to some degree, have romantic attraction to men.

Romantic vs. Sexual Attraction and Mixed-Orientation Marriage

John Dehlin [01:50:53] Tell us the difference, because my daughter Clara has come out as asexual, and she wrote a book about it called A Little Book of Ace. And that's something that ex Mormon dad never plans on having your kid come out to you as. But one of the really wonderful parts about this book called the Little Book of Ace is it breaks down like five or six different types of attraction. So there's sexual attraction, there's emotional attraction, there's intellectual attraction, there's aesthetic attraction, and there are others, and they're all different. And you can have some, but not others.

Lauren Rogers [01:51:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:27] So what would you say?

Lauren Rogers [01:51:29] And so learning this has been so helpful for me because I just didn't have the language to understand what my feelings were.

John Dehlin [01:51:35] And so platonic is one. That's friendship, right?

Lauren Rogers [01:51:38] Yeah. So romantic attraction is simply like, I desire, you know, romance with a person. I desire to be connected to that person. I desire to be, you know, close to that person. It just doesn't come with what you would consider sexual attraction, which is like, I want to make out with that person. I want to sleep with that person. You know, I want to, you know, see them naked. That's the sexual attraction. And so I didn't feel that way about men, but I did desire to have closeness with some. Some men. So very select men. And so ultimately, that's how things worked out with. When I met my husband, like I mentioned before, dating was very stressful for me. I felt very anxious. I did not have a good time on most of my dates. But with my husband, it was just very different. He was Nervous. And that kind of made me less nervous, if that makes sense. Like, I could tell, you know, he was just. Yeah, he was just different. And so I was able to not feel those anxiety feelings and just feel comfortable. And I'm convinced that's why our relationship developed that, you know, that he. Yeah, he was able to help me through. And. And it wasn't until we got married that we realized, oh, there's some sexual dysfunction here. You know, like the. Something's not quite right with our sexuality. And we didn't realize then that it was my sexuality that was a problem, that I was, you know, homosexual. I'm just. Just not sexually attracted to men. I'm very much attracted. Sexually attracted to women.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] Yeah. And I. Some of. Some of my listeners have gotten mad at me for saying this as well. But on the one hand, I do believe in sexual fidelity and sexual responsibility. I think that there are lots of problems, physical and mental health and social problems that can come from kind of irresponsible sexual behavior. So I'm not a libertine or whatever the right word would be in that sense. I believe in healthy, responsible sexuality. And I think it is abusive and irresponsible for. For a system to be set up that encourages people to get married before they've had sex. Because we all know that, you know, the three. Let's just say three of the main causes of divorce are financial problems, you know, let's just say in laws, and sexual problems. Right? And if you're not able to, you know, know that you have sexual compatibility with somebody and you're not able to find that out until after. It's. It's like giving your life savings to a box that you're going to open and you don't know what's in it. Again, there's an element of informed consent. You're. You're giving your life and your eternity to someone. You don't even know if you're fundamentally sexually attracted to them until after you've already signed the deal. And that is. That feels completely irresponsible and unhealthy. And if you ask Natasha Helfer or me or others that work in the mental health field, we're the ones that have to pick up the collateral damage of all these relationships that become super fraught and problematic, and especially because the church adds to that. Get married quick without ever having had sex, and then have as many babies as you can. Kids get thrown into the mix, and they can become the closest collateral damage in these relationships as well. So I. I Have a hard time imagining that I wouldn't encourage my kids to absolutely be sexual act sexually active with their girlfriend or boyfriend or partner before they ever decide to commit their lives to them. Am I crazy?

Lauren Rogers [01:55:21] No, you're not. I 100 agree that, you know, obviously teaching my daughter to practice safe sex is really important, but there's nothing immoral in my opinion. About.

John Dehlin [01:55:33] Disagree.

Lauren Rogers [01:55:34] Carah, about sex.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Do you have different thoughts?

Carah Burrell [01:55:36] Not that I disagree. The we're. The only small, slight disagreement is I think we need to add into the element that sexual compatibility changes throughout the marriage whether you're on birth control or again with kids. And so to say that you will align yourself before marriage and that that's the key, that you will stay the same if you, you know, agree on, like, the frequency or sexual attraction or whatever before marriage, that. That will car 60 years of your life. The top priority, no matter what in a marriage is just communication. So whether that's between sexuality or finances or whatever else. So making communication the highest priority is more the way that I would phrase it.

John Dehlin [01:56:15] Sure, absolutely. Yes, I agree with. There's. I have no disagreement on that.

Carah Burrell [01:56:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:56:19] Yeah. But what about the having sex before my understanding. Yeah, basic. Establishing basic sexual compatibility prior to an eternal commitment.

Carah Burrell [01:56:28] Yeah, yeah. It's hard for me because I was one of those people before our marriage where it's like, how many things can we get away with before I feel any shame? So we were good. But it's like, good in quotes. Like, yeah, good in quotes. Like, you know, I. If I. If I, in my going back to my Mormon brain, the things I was like, oh, we probably shouldn't have, like, laid on top of each other because that can lead to something else. Which leads to something else. But, like, knowing that, like, okay, if. If we were not married, there would definitely be things that'd be going down. There's not a. There is not a single miscommunication of sexual attraction between us two. And so we knew that going in. So I think maybe we. I don't. I. It's hard to say if. If that is the. I mean, exception to the rule.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] The idea is. So the idea is that if you engage in Levi Lovin or whatever they call it, and you're both attracted to each other, that there's a good chance you would be sexually compatible. And I haven't totally thought about that. And I've never experienced, like, sexual dysfunction in a marriage. So I'm wondering what Natasha might say about whether that's a good test. Levi Lovin is that A good test for sexual compatibility. Maybe it is.

Carah Burrell [01:57:35] Were you just, you know, in your head where like, if we pretty much, if you, anyone out there who has like a high sex drive in marriage, Mormon, Mormondom, all of that situation where you say to yourself, if I was not Mormon, I know exactly what I'd be doing every single second of your engagement. You know, when you're like, how soon can we move up our wedding? All of those things. So that I think plays in, in a good way to forming a good bond like with the person that you're engaged with in, you know, in planning to get married to. So I always have, I've had to learn, I've had to learn a lot of those things that you're talking about because that was not my experience being, being LDS in the church. I was like, no, we had very frank discussions about what our sex life would be like. Pretty much that's the only thing you can do is talk about that kind of stuff. You're like, and then we're going to do this and then we're going to do that, but we're not allowed do to, to talk about it. We're not allowed to like do anything, but you can talk all you want when you're engaged. So we had a very clear communication about what a relationship would be like. So it does break my heart that there are people who are conditioned within the church to not even have those conversations, that even those conversations would be seen as sinful and shameful and turns on turn ons. But no, like, I think Mormons, we have a really high view of marriage and, and you know, getting divorced and anything like that is seen as a failure. And so I come, I came from a culture in Mormonism where we wanted to set ourselves up for the best marriage. And I felt like even though I got married young, at 19, I knew that having a very frank discussion with the man I was engaged with would be the best way to set us up for success. So it breaks my heart that people don't have that type of discussions and things so.

Lauren Rogers [01:59:15] Well, yeah, I had those types of discussions with. There were plenty of clues that I was gay in that time frame, but I just wasn't in a place where I could acknowledge them. You know, it was the expectation that I got married in the temple and so I had a man willing to marry me in the temple. And you know, it didn't matter that I was absolutely terrified, you know, to have sex.

John Dehlin [01:59:39] And, and even that can be conceived as just fear around sex, Purity, culture, not Necessarily a lack of fundamental attraction.

Lauren Rogers [01:59:48] Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. And so that's what I thought it was. You know, I almost called off the engagement twice after I got engaged to my husband once because of the. The fear was so intense that I. I was. I started going to therapy about it even, like. And I was just so convinced I was doing everything my therapist told me to do. I wasn't feeling any better. I still did not want to have sex. And I. Yeah, I almost called off the wedding because of it and ultimately decided not to because I love my husband, but also because of the shame that would have been associated with calling off an engagement. Like, I had already sent out invitations, like, that would have marriage. Exactly. And then the second time I almost called off the engagement was because of the ceremony itself. Like, I was very much a feminist at this point. And the idea of covenanting to my husband to obey him, I was not happy about that.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] Was it hearken or obey? Which was it?

Lauren Rogers [02:00:51] Harken? Hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto counsel of. So, yeah, I was not ready to do it. No, I like that.

Carah Burrell [02:00:59] I was not into that heavy sarcasm from John. Just making sure that comes across on the microphone.

Lauren Rogers [02:01:05] Yeah. I was just devastated that I would have to do such a humiliating covenant. And, you know, I. Ultimately, this will show you how amazing my husband is. What convinced me not to call off the wedding. You know, I. Well, I mean, I prayed about it and had spiritual experiences that said I should marry him. And I'm sure that was just hormones or pressure to get married. And I told him what my concern was. I told him that I. That that was awful. But I didn't want to covenant to obey him. And he doesn't. He covenants with God to obey God. And I didn't want to give myself to him. And he doesn't give himself to me. He just receives me. And it just was so unfair. And. And I. I shared that with him and he was so sweet and told me, I don't care that it's not in the temple. I covenant to obey you. And I. And I give myself to you. I covenant with you.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] How cool is that?

Lauren Rogers [02:02:08] Yeah. And that. And that quelled my fears. And I was like, okay, he's a good. He's a good one. I kind of got to keep him.

Challenges of Marriage as a Gay Woman

Carah Burrell [02:02:16] I'm having, like, post Mormon regret that my husband didn't do that.

John Dehlin [02:02:22] Damn it, Aaron, you blew it.

Carah Burrell [02:02:24] That's a really good, sweet husband. Yeah, it's really smart of him.

Lauren Rogers [02:02:27] He's Amazing. I'm convinced that he's the only man on earth that I could have a success, a successful marriage with as a lesbian. But. Yeah, so that quelled that fear. And I also wanted to just quickly mention that I said dating was hard because of my sexuality. It was also very difficult because of my disability. I had to turn down many dates of, like, do you want to go on a bike ride with me? No, I can't do that. You know, do you want to go on a hike with me? Nope, I can't do that. You know, like, it. And I felt very much like, who would want to marry a disabled person? Like, nobody, you know, and so that. That also made it very difficult was I was struggling with my health, and I, you know, was struggling with those feelings of anxiety. And then once I actually got engaged, struggling with feelings of lack of that sexual attraction. I. I definitely felt, like, emotionally attracted to him and, like, romantically attracted to him. Like, I wanted to be with him. I loved being around him. We spent every day together. And so there was definitely so much compatibility. There just was no sexual interest from me, which I didn't. I didn't understand. That's what the problem was. And even. Even after I got married, I didn't understand that was what the problem was. On my wedding night was actually the first time in my life that I had a panic attack. I had two on my wedding night. Was not able to have sex. That's not surprising, you know, and, you know, my husband, of course, was compassionate and caring and cared about consent, so he didn't push it, you know, like, so that was also a huge sign that I missed, you know, that, yes, purity culture is. Is can make people very afraid to have sex. But my reaction was much more visceral than I think just purity culture.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] Was it aversion? Aversion?

Lauren Rogers [02:04:25] Oh, yeah. It was absolute. Like, I don't want to see that. I don't want to look at it. I don't want to touch it.

John Dehlin [02:04:30] Like, all of, like, cleaning his penis.

Lauren Rogers [02:04:32] Yeah, yeah, I was. It was just absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] That's real. Like, just think about it for listeners that don't get this. If you happen to be attracted to any body parts of the same or opposite sex, you can get what attraction is. Well, aversion is whether aversion is that certain body parts actually repulse you. And imagine if you're married to a partner where certain body parts actually make you feel sick or bad or gross or super uncomfortable. Imagine what that would be like. A lot of us can't even imagine that unless I'm trying to imagine being with a man. And then I can start to understand from my perspective what you might have been.

Carah Burrell [02:05:14] Yeah, anybody just try to say a prayer. Try to think. I am a straight woman. If I had a prayer, if I believed in the Mormon God, and I prayed as hard as I could to be attracted to female genitalia, I could pray on my knees all day and night and cry myself to sleep trying to make it happen. And it wouldn't happen. It would just not happen. And I wish people would really put themselves in people with different sexual orientations and trying to see themselves in their shoes. That that's not something that can be fixed with increased faith, let's say. So I really hope that people understand the aversion is serious. Super serious.

Lauren Rogers [02:05:52] Yeah. And like I said, I had those two panic attacks. And I didn't quite have panic attacks, but I continued to have panic for, you know, months into, into the marriage. When we finally did have intercourse, it was very painful and it continued to be painful for years, you know. And also I now know that you know why. But you know, we just, just the.

John Dehlin [02:06:21] I mean, I'm, I'm not. This is.

Carah Burrell [02:06:23] I'll ask the questions, John. Just kind of like I have a friend who had. Has vagina vaginismus. Did you ever have any like, actual diagnosis diagnoses with like the pain for reasons or was it just the aversion that was not able to relax or.

Lauren Rogers [02:06:40] Yeah, so I ended up going a few years into my marriage into a pelvic floor physical therapist who, she was amazing and helped me and work through and, you know, what people don't understand is like your pelvic floor, you know, like, you're. The muscles down there are very sensitive and you, you know, arousal is absolutely necessary for women to, to not have pain.

John Dehlin [02:07:07] And for those who don't understand, explain why. I mean, I know it's graphic, but this is an educational.

Lauren Rogers [02:07:12] Yeah, well, a lot. Just like with men, you know, when men become aroused, there's a physiological thing that happens. Blood rushes to the genitals. The same thing happens to women. You know, your, your vaginal canal actually expands, it, you know, relaxes, it prepares for penetration, basically. And you know, your clitoris will also swell so that there can be pleasure. And none of those things happen for me.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] There's lubrication.

Lauren Rogers [02:07:37] Yeah, lubrication.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] Right.

Lauren Rogers [02:07:39] Self lubrication. So all of those physiological things that are supposed to happen with women, none of them happened for me. And that caused a Lot of pain. And, and when I went to my physical therapist two or three years into my marriage, you know, I actually had adhesions on my muscles because I was having sex with, with, with those muscles

John Dehlin [02:07:59] tight instead of relaxed and without the self lubrication.

Carah Burrell [02:08:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:03] So. So when there's attraction in a female, all the right things happen to where it can be a really pleasurable experience. When there's not attraction, it can actually be a violent and damaging experience. And it's no one's fault, it's no one's choice. It's just what the body is doing based on how it's wired. Is that right?

Lauren Rogers [02:08:20] Correct. Exactly.

Carah Burrell [02:08:21] And all I wanted to add was I think somebody like me who came from a very conservative Mormon household is that I was more accepting of when somebody, when a man would say that he's gay, I was more accepting of taking them at their word for that because of the physical arousals is a lot more present.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] Visible.

Carah Burrell [02:08:38] It's visible.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] It's obvious.

Carah Burrell [02:08:39] Yeah. And so for a woman you have to, you have to be like, what's on. You're on the spectrum of like. And I want people to hear that that like it was, it's quite honestly a like vine like this. I don't want to use the word violent, abusive, but like something that was physically damaging because your body is not in a state that is aroused. The exact same things that we, we can acknowledge that happens to a man when he's aroused should have been happening but they weren't. And that's a very clear cut sign that your sexuality is exactly what you say it is. You know, it's, it's really frustrating to hear people that are like, oh well if you work through it this way or da da da da. Purity culture would allow you to, you know, fill in the blank that like when people express that they have an aversion to believe them. And I think that that's, that's a real, a real disconnect I think, between religious conservative cultures and LGBTQ community. Community.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] I, I announced recently on Mormon stories that I, I haven't yet. This is the first time I. Well, I don't know how you self identify sexually, but to this point it's bizarre. I had not interviewed a lesbian. I did for a, a short little YouTube channel I had called LDS Homosexuality, like right during Prop 8. So I, I interviewed a few lesbian women way back in 2008, but somehow none of those episodes made it onto Mormon stories. And so I will, we'll get to how you sexually Identify now. But Carrie, you make such a good point that, like, for the man, arousal is visual and it's obvious, but for a woman, it's totally invisible. It's only what's going on inside. And so the lesbian, but just.

Lauren Rogers [02:10:22] You have to. It's harder to see.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, it's technically visible under the right angles and angles and light, but I mean, not nearly as it could

Carah Burrell [02:10:34] get so dirty right now.

John Dehlin [02:10:35] Let's just say from.

Lauren Rogers [02:10:36] What's that?

Carah Burrell [02:10:37] Nothing.

John Dehlin [02:10:38] Yeah, from like 10 steps back, you know, you don't know.

Lauren Rogers [02:10:41] Right, Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:43] And that's. That's an important phenomenon to understand.

Carah Burrell [02:10:45] Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:46] That makes female sexuality very different than male sexuality.

Lauren Rogers [02:10:50] Yes. And I'll add that my. My husband was absolutely amazing through this whole experience. You know, as you can imagine, it could have been very difficult for him. He could have taken it personally that I was having pain or that I couldn't orgasm, you know, that I didn't feel any pleasure. He could have taken that personally. But instead he was just very concerned. And in trying to help me have a good experience, we did so much. We had a month long honeymoon and we did so much research. We went to sex drops. We, you know, got me medication because we realized, okay, well, you're not lubricating, you're not, you know, you're not swelling. You know, he did that check for me and we tried to get prescriptions. We got different medications that are supposed to help with that because I was under the assumption that there's just something wrong with me physiologically, like something's not connected. I know I must be aroused because I'm happy to be with my husband. And so the fact that these things aren't happening means there's something wrong with my body. I need to treat it medically. And so I went to doctors and tried to try to get that problem fixed.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] There's a pill for that.

Lauren Rogers [02:11:57] Exactly. I took female Viagra. I took. Had topical creams, you know, I had numbing cream for the pain and different cream for the pleasure. And it just was a huge mess.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] You know, almost sounds like conversion therapy. Like female. Female version. Right?

Lauren Rogers [02:12:10] Yeah. And. And I also, I went to several OBGYNs in Utah when I got back to school because I had a year left of school after I got married. And I went to her and I explained all the issues I was having. And she said that her solution to my painful sex was to have a baby. She said, stretching. Stretching out your, you know, your hymen and your vagina. Will help you have pain free sex. So that's my diagnosis. That's my recipe for you prescription. Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:12:48] Just bring a human into the world.

Lauren Rogers [02:12:50] Exactly this issue. I guess there's nothing else I can do. And not surprisingly enough, after I had my baby, it did not get better. And that's when I was outside of Utah and had an OB GYN who was not Mormon and told me, yeah, that's not normal. Let me send you to a specialist. And that's when I finally was able to go to a pelvic floor physical therapist. And she was like, wow. Like, I. So I tore when I gave birth and my adhesions and my muscles were bigger than the, like the scar tissue from my tear. Like, she was like, wow, these are intense.

Carah Burrell [02:13:25] Like, oh my goodness.

Lauren Rogers [02:13:27] And it took six months of going every week and having her. Literally, it's just like a massage, like an internal massage with a glove. And she was working out those adhesions and those knots basically. And it was horribly painful. But eventually did help. Um, so that's another, another shout out I'll do of like, if you're a woman and you're having painful sex, like, pelvic floor physical therapist is your saving grace. Like, so many people just don't talk about that. Like, I had so much frustration in the beginning of my marriage because I had no one to talk to. Like, I talk, I would talk to my mom. Was it ever painful? Did you ever have a problem orgasming? Nope. And nope. Like, nobody I talked to could help me. And I didn't know where to go because I was clearly having so many sexual issues and I just thought I was the problem. I didn't recognize that I'm just gay and that just doesn't work well. But eventually sex became very different for me. Instead of a sexual experience, as you might think, it became a very emotional experience because I have such a supportive husband who worked with me and, you know, would stop in the middle of, you know, our activities if he saw that I was in pain, you know, like, he was very, very much focused on me. It didn't become a source of contention in our, in our marriage. And it became something that felt like, this might sound like super not feminist, but it felt like a gift that I could give to my husband. Like, I wanted him to feel pleasure and, and I enjoyed the emotional connection. And so sex became not sexual for me. It became an emotional bonding experience that I could have with my husband where I felt loved and I felt desired and that felt good too, you know, and so it, it became something that, you know, made our marriage stronger because I married a good guy, you know, not. I don't think every guy would. Would be that understanding and amazing.

Carah Burrell [02:15:25] And I just want to pause to thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that because I think a lot of listeners are really going to connect with that, whether they've had the same issues or just even like, modeling really healthy consent in a marriage. That's really interesting. Yeah. And communication.

Lauren Rogers [02:15:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:41] The thought that I had was a, it was a bifurcated thought. How beautiful that story is in terms of your connection, your love for each other, his sensitivity, and how, I don't want to say dangerous, but like, I could see an apologist, a Mormon apologist saying, hey, lesbian Mormon women, just marry a sensitive guy and you'll learn to be able to have emotional sex with him and you can do it. Now you, You, Lauren, have now provided the key to mixed orientation Mormon marriage. Just have emotional sensitive sex and you'll be fine.

Lauren Rogers [02:16:23] Yeah, no, I, I totally agree because the science says that mixed orientation marriages are, have terrible outcomes, you know, especially when failure rate. Yeah, especially when they're done for religious reasons. And ultimately, you know, by the time I realized I was gay, I was out of the church. And so my decision to stay with my husband was absolutely not religious. And so I would say, you know, my advice is don't, don't marry someone you're not attracted to for a religious reason. You know, like, yes, my marriage is an anomaly. It works. It's beautiful. I love my marriage, but I don't advocate for mixed orientation marriages because that's not the norm. And I'm not, you know, I also have a very specific sexual orientation where that works. Like I'm. My, what I call myself is I'm biromantic homosexual. So I, I do have romantic interests in men as well as women.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] By romantic meaning attracted to.

Lauren Rogers [02:17:25] Romantically attracted to both gender, men and women. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:29] Biromantic homosexual.

Lauren Rogers [02:17:31] Yeah. Lesbian meaning lesbian. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] Okay. So meaning sexually.

Lauren Rogers [02:17:36] Sexually, I'm only attracted to women. And so that's why I'm a homosexual, you know, and so that makes me gay. But I, I do have that caveat that makes my marriage work, is that I am romantically attracted to my husband. And that makes it much easier to, to stay in a marriage where, you know, we have that mixed orientation.

Carah Burrell [02:17:58] And just generally, I think human beings, they tend to think of themselves as always the exception to the rule. And I think you are literally the exception to the rule. But for anyone listening to this who's like, and I will also be the exception to the rule or my children will, or I'll force something upon them in a mixed orientation marriage, like we were saying, the statistics are pretty clear on what mixed orientation marriage is, how they go, and recognizing that most people by definition are not exceptions to that rule.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] Yeah, it's like I played Russian roulette, I spun the chamber, it didn't kill me. So I'm going to recommend Russian roulette to somebody else. You would never do that.

Lauren Rogers [02:18:34] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] That's a, that's a dark metaphor.

Lauren Rogers [02:18:36] Yeah, no, it's apropos. I think it's appropriate. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] Jump the shark there.

Lauren Rogers [02:18:41] No, I mean, I personally know multiple people in my life that either are or were in mixed orientation marriages. And, you know, one ended in divorce, another ended in divorce. You know, and even the ones that don't end divorce, there's lots of pain and anguish and hardship. And so. Yeah, it's just. Why do that to yourself? You know? Like, it's, it's, it works for some people, but the, some are so small in the minority and it takes so much extra work that it's not something I would ever recommend choose. Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:19:17] And you were saying around in a religious context as well.

Lauren Rogers [02:19:19] Yeah. The studies do show that religious reasons are, are the, the damning aspect. Like there are, there are people who are in mixed orientation marriages because they simply fell in love for the right person. But it's not a religious reason. If it's not a religious reason, the science shows it's, it's a little bit better.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] Yeah. I did my PhD dissertation on the LGBTQ Mormon experience, and what we found is that not only do mixed orientation marriages have a minimum of a 70% failure rate, so two to three times a higher failure rate than a, than a first, you know, heterosexual marriage. So you're two to three times more likely to get divorced. But the quality of life ratings for the, the queer Mormons in mixed orientation marriages were lower than for those who have lupus. So lupus is the super debilitating disease, probably not unlike chronic fatigue syndrome or the other diagnosis that you gave it. So super high levels of chronic illness. People who are in mixed orientation marriages have worse quality of life ratings than those people, not to mention the straight spouse that doesn't feel like their partner's attracted to them, doesn't feel loved by their partner, they're lonely, they're sad, and then all the issues of like, infidelity or dishonesty or, you Know, lack of attraction, just. And that. That is literally one of the two recommendations the church has to an LGBTQ member right now. It's either be a celibate, which is actually the only thing that's worse than being in a mixed orientation marriage in terms of quality of life. The church has two terrible options for their LGBTQ members, actually three or four. Because it's literally either be celibate. Awful. Be in a mixed orientation marriage, usually awful. Or get excommunicated.

Lauren Rogers [02:21:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Or die.

Lauren Rogers [02:21:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] Those are the four choices the church offers to its LGBTQ members.

Carah Burrell [02:21:23] And sometimes on the down low, as Kyle Ashworth will tell us, there's some gay cuddling parties going on sometimes too, on the DL.

John Dehlin [02:21:30] Yeah, yeah. A mixed orientation marriage with infidelity.

Lauren Rogers [02:21:34] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] Yeah, yeah. So. So I don't know if you're. You mean. I mean, I first have to echo what Carah said. I'm Lauren. I'm so grateful that you're willing to be so vulnerable, so candid. We never talk about these sorts of things to, to be lurid or licentious, to get, you know, it's, it's purely to educate. Because I know for a fact that Natasha Helfer has just. And it's not necessarily queer women, it's just sexual dysfunction in a marriage for whatever reason. But I know that she is like, has a six month waiting list because of all the sexual dysfunction in Mormon marriages. And we have never on Mormon stories talked about kind of female sexual lack of arousal or an orgasmia or, you know, what were the other diagnoses that you talked about? Like, anyway, just sexual dysfunction.

Carah Burrell [02:22:28] Pelvic floor scarring. Yeah. Things like that.

John Dehlin [02:22:31] All that stuff.

Carah Burrell [02:22:32] Yeah. Like, it's very intensive. Like the, the therapy my friend went through as well, and I couldn't even. I didn't even know it existed.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] And, or the pain.

Carah Burrell [02:22:41] Or the pain.

John Dehlin [02:22:41] So called.

Lauren Rogers [02:22:43] So vaginismus.

John Dehlin [02:22:44] Vaginism.

Lauren Rogers [02:22:44] Right.

John Dehlin [02:22:44] That's the other one.

Lauren Rogers [02:22:45] I wasn't diagnosed with that. But that's like what typically people are diagnosed with.

Carah Burrell [02:22:49] Yeah. So just as a public service announcement for people that these things exist and that if you're having struggles within your marriage and this sounds familiar, like, take care of yourself, get a sex therapist. Get the help that you need.

John Dehlin [02:23:05] Get a licensed sex therapist. So Natasha Helfer is a licensed sex therapist. There's several in Utah. My daughter Clara works for a couple. Find a licensed sex therapist. They can help you.