Taylor Knuth-Bishop was an active LDS Church member and seminary graduate who considered himself “heterosexual with same-sex attraction” until he met the love of his life, Sean Knuth-Bishop. Taylor and Sean fell in love and were eventually legally married during the now-famous 2014 Grammy performance wherein Macklemore, Madonna, and Queen Latifa married 33 same-sex couples during the performance of “Same Love.”
Taylor and Sean have been living a happy life in New York City in the theatre industry, but recently (after moving home for the summer) Taylor was contacted by his LDS bishop and informed that he will be tried in a disciplinary council for the simple act of being legally same-sex married to Sean. This is Taylor’s story.
(Note: I have been informed this week of two other gay couples who are facing LDS Church discipline for the same reason.)
- Here is a link to the engagement video mentioned in the interview:
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Taylor Knuth-Bishop
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Welcome
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.
John Dehlin [00:00:51] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and as always, I'm very, very excited for Today's episode. It's May 6, 2015. This is not an interview that I planned. It kind of sprung on me, but it fits very, very nicely with the theme that we've been covering the past several weeks. So today I'm interviewing a man named Taylor Knuth, Bishop, just to give you the preview. Taylor was raised Mormon or lds, and he was active in the church a good chunk of his life. And he ended up meeting the man of his dreams named Shawn. Bishop ended up getting married to Sean. How old are you now, Taylor?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:01:41] I'm 22.
John Dehlin [00:01:42] 22 years old, so he's kind of a young guy. And he ended up getting married in January of 2014, so last year. We'll talk about it a bit. It's kind of fun because he was married during the Grammys. I don't know if you guys remember when Madonna came out and Queen Latifah came out and they married a bunch of same sex couples. Well, Taylor and Sean were actually one of those couples. Anyway, he's been, I guess, in New York living his happy life. Taylor, you can correct me on these details as we go, but he returned recently to Utah to work for Weber State. He's a theater major. And while he since he's returned home, he received a call and a letter from his bishop, his LDS bishop, basically telling him to prepare for a disciplinary council. And the only reason his bishop is given for the disciplinary council is that he has been same sex married. So what this suggests is that it's now kind of open season in the LDS Church on same sex married couples and the church is going to start holding formal disciplinary councils. Now there's always a chance that this bishop is acting rogue, but I've actually heard reports now two or three, at least two other reports of similar Things happening. And so we're going to just speak with Taylor today just a bit about a story and about the events that have happened to kind of make it a matter of public record. And, you know, some people are, you know, most people are really enjoying these sessions. Some people are frustrated saying, oh, Mormon stories is only about negative things or disciplinary councils. You know, I want all my listeners to know that, that we have other types of topics planned. But, but we, we've noticed that in the aftermath of the Kate Kelly excommunication in mind, that disciplinary, you know, threats of disciplinary. Disciplinary councils seem to be on the rise. And we feel like they're inhumane and unjust. They cause real harm and damage to the lives of the individuals involved. And we actually believe that, you know, they're not helpful to the members of the church or to the church itself in the long run. So, you know, I feel like it's important to highlight these and, you know, at some point we'll probably, you know, move on to other topics. But, but while these are happening, I'm at least going to keep highlighting a few, especially when I think they have important implications that in this case, you know, we're going to talk about how things like this can actually lead to very serious and negative consequences for the LGBT individuals who are involved. So with all that, Taylor Knuth, Bishop, welcome. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:04:37] Thank you. I'm glad to be on Any, any,
John Dehlin [00:04:40] any details I got wrong or did I get?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:04:43] No, you, you pretty much covered it.
Taylor's Mormon Upbringing and Coming Out
John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay. All right, all right, so, so let's just begin briefly. Tell us just, just a bit about your, your Mormon story, you know, through, through high school.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:04:54] Yeah, So I was born into a Mormon family, not active at all. And throughout junior high and high school, I was a part of a very Mormon group of friends. So, so in high school especially, I started to really cling to that culture and that religion. I didn't really attend seminary until my senior year. And my senior year I decided that I wanted to graduate seminary. So I did all four years of seminary in one year.
John Dehlin [00:05:28] Oh, I've never heard of that before.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:05:30] Yeah, I checked out the books and I studied and pass. You know, arranged it with my seminary teachers so that I could do that.
John Dehlin [00:05:39] Let me ask you, just because I've done research on this topic and I'm always interested, at what age did you first start experiencing same sex attraction?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:05:50] I think I always knew when I was 15, 16, and that's when I initially came to my bishop about it and said, you know, this is Just something that I'm thinking about, something that I'm feeling, but I really didn't act upon it until I was 18.
John Dehlin [00:06:05] How did your bishop. How did your bishop respond when you were 15?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:06:09] He said as long as I didn't act upon it, it wouldn't be an issue. But then when I acted upon it when I was 18 and told him, we went through, you know, the whole, you can't take the sacrament right now. You need to repent for at least, I think it was three to six months, you know, that I needed to not offer public prayer and things like that.
John Dehlin [00:06:27] Okay, so from 15, 18, did you feel guilt? Were you tormented? Was it hard?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:06:35] I don't think that I had a great sense of self from the age of 15 to 16. And I know that's pretty common, but I think that because I didn't know who I belonged with romantically, I didn't feel like I belonged socially either. You know, I still dated girls, and I still very much enjoyed my time, you know, but it wasn't. It never felt the way that it felt when I was with. When I first started dating Sean. It, you know, it wasn't being true to myself. It was very, you know, not true.
John Dehlin [00:07:10] So you tried to date and you did date women, but you weren't super tormented about it. It just. Just didn't feel quite right, it sounds like.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:07:20] Yeah, it didn't feel tormenting, you know, until I was 18, 17. 18, when I really, you know.
John Dehlin [00:07:27] Okay, so Sean was the first romantic
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:07:31] gay relationship that you had, officially? Yes, I had. You know, I experimented here and there, especially coming out of high school, but Sean is the first person that I openly dated.
John Dehlin [00:07:43] Okay, and what was it like when you first met Sean and started to get to know him?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:07:49] You know, it was. It was funny because I would always tell my really good friend, I would always say, you know, if I were ever gay, because she was still under the assumption that I was straight. I said if I were ever gay, Sean would be the perfect person for me. I just think he's so great, and I don't think I had accepted myself at that point.
John Dehlin [00:08:07] You said if I were gay?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:08:09] So you didn't identify as gay yet?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:11] Yeah, I identified as a straight person with gay tendencies.
John Dehlin [00:08:15] Okay, and is that because. Did you ever see a therapist or do reparative therapy or anything like that?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:22] No, I never did that.
John Dehlin [00:08:23] Okay, that's fortunate.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:26] It is. A lot of people that I know are not that fortunate. But, yeah, I always told my friend, if. If I were gay, And I wanted to date a man, it would be Sean. I. Because I met him in school and I just thought he was great. He was, you know, he was an upperclassman and I looked up to him in every sense of the word. And, you know, we just started hanging out more and started texting more and.
John Dehlin [00:08:51] So you knew him in high school?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:52] No, I knew him freshman year in college at Weber.
John Dehlin [00:08:56] Okay, okay.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:08:57] So he was like. He. He graduated the year that I came in. He's older than me. I know, it's.
John Dehlin [00:09:02] Oh, that's fine. So he graduated from Weber when you were a freshman?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:09:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:06] Okay. And so you kind of felt he started falling for him. So what's that like with your religious beliefs, falling in love with the gay guy?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:09:16] It was challenging. You know, I was 18, so for me, I was supposed to go to BYU. When I graduated, I was supposed to go to BYU.
John Dehlin [00:09:26] And you were a theater guy, right?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:09:27] Yeah, I was supposed to go to byu. I had a full ride scholarship, but I didn't get it. I didn't get into the university because I think, you know, my. I think the bishop interview did not go very well because of the gay thing.
John Dehlin [00:09:43] Is that because you had started being with Sean or.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:09:45] No, I just because I had been, you know, seeking counsel from him about
John Dehlin [00:09:49] the issue and so he wouldn't sign your ecclesiastical endorsement?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:09:52] Basically he did. But I, you know, I was top 2% of my class. There's no reason why I shouldn't have gotten to BYU other than some force, you know, form of ecclesiastical endorsement, you know.
John Dehlin [00:10:05] Okay, so in some way you think the message got sent to BYU that you'd be a threat or couldn't live the standards or something like that?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:10:13] Yeah, and that's unconfirmed. It's just a feeling that I've always had. But I ended up going to Weber, and it was great. And, you know, I think that was God's way of saying, you know, this is where I needed to be and that's where I met Sean, and that's where I am now. But I was supposed to go to BYU. And so I was in this place of turning 18, deciding to go to Weber, and then I said, well, I'll just do a semester of school and then go on my mission. Because that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to go on your mission. But I got into Weber and realized that I needed to be in school. I just had this feeling that school was a priority and a mission was not. And then that coupled with these Feelings for Sean, you know, that's why I stayed. And then I just stopped going to church when I started going to school because I moved out of my mom's house and, you know, singles words are awkward. And I didn't want to transfer my records up to, you know, Ogden, so I just. I fell away from the church, if you will.
John Dehlin [00:11:19] Now, for a lot of gay men and lesbian women that I, you know, have known, it's not as simple as just leaving the church. It's. It's. There's torment, there's guilt, there's shame. There are years of. Of wrestling with this decision.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:11:38] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:11:39] Of. Of. Of feeling like you're awful or bad or confused. Did you experience any of that? Or maybe because you weren't raised active from a very young age, it was a little bit easier for you. What. What was it like?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:11:53] No, I definitely struggled. I can remember my senior year in high school, there was somebody who graduated the year before me, and he made. At the time, I thought that it was a decision to be openly gay. And I remember telling him, because of where I was in the church, being extremely active, I remember telling him that he was a disappointment to God for choosing to be gay. I said things like that. Yeah. And I think about it now, and it's incredibly humiliating to me to have said that. And I remember saying that verbatim, you know, you're a disappointment to God, and it's, ouch. Yeah. And I mean, but that's what we're taught to believe, that being gay is a challenge. And I remember when I first, you know, started thinking, I can date Sean. And I was sitting on the computer, and I went to lds.org and I started chatting with one of the missionaries. I asked them, I said, what is homosexuality? Why is it a sin? And this, I assume it was a sister missionary. She said, we equate being homosexual as a handicap. It's no different of a trial than somebody choosing to come to earth with a disability. And I remember thinking, I'm disabled. I'm disabled because of who I'm physically and emotionally and mentally attracted to. So, yeah, it tore me up. I didn't end up coming out to my family until nearly a month, month and a half after dating Sean. And coming out with my family was among one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.
John Dehlin [00:13:42] You were taught even though they weren't active LDs?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:13:45] Yeah. I mean, there's still this stigma that if you are, you know, gay, everything will be inherently more difficult for you, you know, and my mom, my grandma especially, you know, they're. They're a part of the generation that, you know, they. They're not confronted. They weren't as confronted with homosexuality as my generation is. You know, my generation is extremely open and accepting, you know, of the. The homosexual culture, you know, But I always worried that my mom and my grandma wouldn't accept me or except Sean. And that's what I wanted, you know, I wanted them to accept me, but I was coming to them, not only coming out of the closet and saying, hey, I'm gay, but I was coming to them saying, hey, I'm gay, and I love somebody who happens to be six years older than me. That was the hardest part for my mom.
John Dehlin [00:14:36] So how did they take it?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:14:39] You know, I called my mom into my bedroom and it was like one o' clock in the morning, and I was crying and I just said, mom, I'm dating someone. She's like, well, why are you crying? Why is this a bad thing? And I'm like, because his name is Sean. And she's like. She just said, I know. And I'm like, you know, she's like, I know that you're gay. She's like, and I love you still, you know, but her biggest issue with me being gay was that age difference with Sean. And now she loves him, I think, more than me sometimes. But. But. And I remember telling my grandma. My grandma was one of the last people I told because I was so worried. She's lived with us most of my life, you know, and she's a really big reason why I do what I do. Today she was the first person to take me to an audition. And, you know, I wouldn't be who I am without her. And I remember thinking, she's old. She won't get it. She won't get it. And she told me, she said, you know, Taylor, the sun rises and sets in my eyes with you, and, you know, it just made everything better, you know.
John Dehlin [00:15:41] Oh, what a beautiful woman.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:15:43] Yeah, she loves Sean. She loves him.
John Dehlin [00:15:48] All right, so I'm going to ask you to send me a photo of you and of you and Sean. And if you're willing, I want you to send me a photo of your grandma.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:15:55] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:15:55] I'll show it to our listeners.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:15:57] Okay, sounds good.
John Dehlin [00:15:58] That's if you're comfortable. Wow. So overall, your family was really supportive, it sounds like.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:16:05] Yeah. And, you know, I only lost one friend that was pretty Mormon. And then I have a really, really. My best friend is extremely Mormon. And we kind of fell out of touch. For a little bit, but, you know, she now loves an exception as much as I do.
John Dehlin [00:16:23] She's still active.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:16:24] She's very, very active.
John Dehlin [00:16:26] Wow. That's kind of cool.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:16:27] Just got back from a mission.
John Dehlin [00:16:28] Nice.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:16:30] Yeah. And I don't know if she necessarily believes that supports it. You know, I. It's. I don't know. And I've talked to her about it many times, and she still is very much following what the church is saying, but she still. She still loves and accepts me 100%. She says no. I don't know how it works out. And with her, you know, it's very personal thing, but, you know, I still love and accept her for who she is.
John Dehlin [00:16:59] And so how did you. How did you shake off the guilt and the shame and start to feel okay with being in a relationship with a man?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:17:08] It was a lot of. I had to get to a point where I was okay with me, and then I had to give up what the world thought about me. I had to give up all these, you know, beliefs that what I was doing was wrong. Essentially. I had to abandon a lot of, you know, the teachings of the church in order to do so. But, you know, I mentioned in my letter to the bishop that I still, you know, there is this foundation that the church instilled in me of, you know, faith, hope, charity, kindness, love. And I still hold all of those things so dear to me. But I had to turn off what the church was saying about me and turn it into something positive. So Sean and I started to volunteer. Our time at. It's essentially a shelter for LGBT youth in Ogden. It's called Outreach. It's a wonderful program. You know, their mission is saving lives, improving the community, you know, and we started volunteering our time there, and I thought, if I can share my story and save, you know, one life, then I've done something good, you know, and that's something really important to Sean and I, is making sure that not only is our voice heard, but it's heard in a positive light that can bring enlightenment and hopefully change one person's mind about this issue, because we have my family behind us 100%, and I think that that's a really big accomplishment.
John Dehlin [00:18:53] So for you, even though you have tried to retain some of the good of your Mormon upbringing, losing sort of ceasing to believe sort of many of the church's truth claims was an important part of your healing and becoming okay with yourself.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:19:15] Yeah. I mean, it's funny because especially towards the beginning, Sean was raised Mormon, very Mormon, but he didn't go to church. He told his dad especially, no, his mom's no longer a part of the church. She removed her records when she got a divorce from Sean's dad. But I always told Shawn, in the beginning of our relationship, I would tell him, I say. I would say I love the church. I would go to church. I would make us go to church. I would make our kids go to church if they accepted our family, you know, because there are a lot of good things to say about the church. And the only one of my sisters that is active right now and is, you know, getting married in the temple, a second marriage in the temple. She's raising my nephew in the church. And there's a lot of positive things that I'm so excited about him to learn. You know, these. You know, love, charity, kindness, hope, faith. There are a lot of good things. But I also. I told my mom the other day, I said, how is Cassie not scared to death of raising her son in this church, not knowing what he will choose, not choose, but what he will be when he grows up? Because if he is gay, if he is transgendered, if he is anything that doesn't fit this mold of an eternal family that the church believes in right now, he will ruin her eternal family. You know, that's why we go to church, because we're promised these eternal blessings, but only if you fit this mold that they have prescribed to you. Right. So, I mean, that's just. I mean, that's. That's where they're at right now.
John Dehlin [00:20:58] So for you, you. For you, you had to lose your. You had to lose your beliefs to find yourself, but also, you would have stayed in the church if they had accepted you and Sean as a family. But you couldn't stay if the church was going to reject you as a family.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:21:14] Yeah. I mean, who wants to be told every day that their marriage is counterfeit, you know?
John Dehlin [00:21:19] Yeah. Which is a reference to Elder El Tom Perry's talk in General Conference, April of 2015.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:21:27] Yeah.
Same-Sex Marriage and the Disciplinary Call
John Dehlin [00:21:27] Okay, so tell us about your wedding. How in the heck did you end up getting married at the Grammys?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:21:36] We have a pretty awesome engagement story. Sean wrote me a song because we both, you know, we both do theater. So he wrote me a song, and he brought in my family, and we recorded it and put it on YouTube and it had a lot of attention. And they were Madonna. I mean, sorry. Queen Latifah had this idea that she wanted to make a big statement with Macklemore and say, love is love, same love. And it Was, you know, based off of Macklemore's, you know, hit that year, Same Love. And they started searching for couples, and they found Shawn and I on Facebook, and we were kind of like, in. They wouldn't tell us what it was, but they said, we want to marry, you know, a handful of couples on live tv, and we want you to be one of them. But it was kind of like a casting process, so we had to wait here. And the same day that we heard about marriage, the. Because, you know, how marriage. Same sex marriage was legal in Utah, and then they denied it for a while. The same day we heard that they struck it down was the same day we heard that we were going to get married 22 days later.
John Dehlin [00:22:44] That's a silver lining.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:22:45] It was. It was. It was. I. We were in Hawaii, and we were watching the news, and then when we saw, we were like, well, that really sucks. You know, how are we going to get married? Because we had been engaged for almost a year by then, and our plan was to get married during the summer. And then nearly an hour later, we get a call from these casting producers of the Grammys, and they said, we want you to be one of the couples. You know, all you have to do is get here, and then we're gonna, you know, make your wedding a huge deal. And we. They told us it was finally the Grammys. And so we flew out. We left on Friday night, got there, rehearsed on Saturday, and then the performance was on Sunday. And we got. We got married by Queen Latifah. She signed our. She signed our marriage certificate, which is legal in California, which is now legal in Utah. So it was just a crazy process, and it was incredibly fun. Way cool experience.
John Dehlin [00:23:42] So you got to meet Queen Latifah.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:23:45] Yeah, we got to meet Queen Latifah and Madonna and Macklemore and Mary Lambert. They were all incredible. It was such a cool experience.
John Dehlin [00:23:51] Did you, like, get to hang out with them and stuff, or was it just.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:23:54] It was really quick for Madonna, McLemore and Mary Lambert, but Queen Latifah had to come back and sign our marriage license, and there were 32 of us. So she sat there and signed it and talked to us, and. And it was really cool. She invited some of the couples back on her show for Valentine's Day a couple weeks later, but those were the people that lived in California that she invited.
John Dehlin [00:24:15] Okay. Bummer. Well. And so was it fun to dance and get married at the Grammys?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:24:21] Yeah. Sean and I were right next to Lorde and Ozzy Osbourne and Keith Urban. So it's just funny to say that those, they were four feet away from you as you said your vows.
John Dehlin [00:24:35] That's amazing. Okay, so I guess you guys since then have been just kind of living your happy life.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:24:44] Yeah. And that's why to me it was incredibly shocking to get a call as I'm making dinner with my mom. Get a call.
John Dehlin [00:24:54] Okay. So, yeah. So you moved back to Utah, is that right?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:24:57] Yeah, we've been living in New York for the past four months and I, I was doing an internship at a Broadway producing company and it was over and I had this job opportunity in Utah, so I left and I'm here and Sean's in New York. So we're living a almost bicoastal relationship right now, which is challenging. But I'm here and he's there. He's there till the end of May. He's working for a really great non profit theater out there in New York. And I moved back for this job and because my sisters are both getting married this summer. And so it just made sense to come home and help plan a wedding and have fun, you know, for the summer. Because New York is hot and stinky in the summer. Sure.
John Dehlin [00:25:47] So you're home, you said you were making dinner with your mom.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:25:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:25:53] And you haven't been to church? You know, at this point in how long?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:25:58] I went to church the first weekend I was home, but it was for a friend's homecoming and it was in a different stake.
John Dehlin [00:26:04] Okay, but you've been to church recently. But. And you haven't?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:26:07] That's the first time I've been to church since probably meeting Sean. Okay, so four years later I'm going to church.
John Dehlin [00:26:16] Okay, so you're just kind of totally minding your own business. You're legally married. And then. And you get this call and. Tell us about the call.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:26:26] Like I said, I was just making dinner with my mom. I was stirring the noodles for spaghetti and I get this call and he answers the phone, he's like, hey, is this Taylor? And I'm like, yeah, it is. Can you come and meet with me at some point today? And I said, no, I'm making dinner with my family. He said, well, what about this week? And I said, I'm actually pretty booked this week. And he said, well, you know, do
John Dehlin [00:26:47] you have any idea what it might be?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:26:50] I think I knew when I, because he, his clerk has been trying to contact me off and on for six months now. But I, you know, I have no reason to talk to him. I'm very much under the impression that I feel like. Especially with my experience with him trying to counsel me with my, you know, with my homosexuality. I feel that some bishop. Most bishops are incredibly unqualified to give counsel to people, and that comes with a lot of personal stigma. My sister was going through divorce, and her husband was really abusive, and the bishop justified his abuse. And he's not, you know, he's not qualified. Different bishop, but he's not. Bishops aren't qualified to counsel people. They're not counselors. They're not psychologists. The majority of them, at least. I shouldn't make a blanket statement.
John Dehlin [00:27:41] So this is the same bishop that you had growing up?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:27:44] Yeah, same bishop. I had the same bishop, pretty much my entire church experience.
John Dehlin [00:27:50] Wow, okay.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:27:52] And he just. He told me. He said, well, you know, this is regarding. And I said, well, I can only imagine. He said, we're holding a disciplinary council for you and your choice to marry Sean and your choice to live the lifestyle you have chosen. Said the word choice like, three times.
John Dehlin [00:28:07] What don't you like about that?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:28:09] I don't like the word choice. Yes, I do believe that your sexuality can be a choice, and many people choose to make that decision. But also, we are at a point in this world where homosexuality is scientifically proven to be, you know, more than a choice. It's not a choice. It is a choice in some. It's, you know, sexuality. It's weird, but it's not a choice. It was never a choice for me. I didn't choose to fall in love with Sean. He showed up in my life when I needed him, and it happened. You know, it's the most natural thing that's ever happened to me. It was never a choice for me to love Sean.
John Dehlin [00:28:54] Right.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:28:56] But he said that. And I said, oh, well, you know, right now I'm choosing not to come to the disciplinary council. And he said, okay. And I hung up the phone. And my mom and my grandma were more upset about. I mean, of course I cried and I called.
John Dehlin [00:29:13] Why'd you cry if you haven't been to church in a while?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:29:16] I cried because it's different to think about the church as this big macro organism of a bunch of old guys in Salt Lake making decisions, you know, and saying really awful things at general conference about, you know, who you are, and to have the man that I sat across the table from eight years ago crying. I was in tears saying, I don't want to be this person. I don't want to live away from the church. I don't want to be unhappy and living in sin. And then to have this microorganism of an idea of an organization, of an institution come into something so micro, as somebody who you once sought counsel from, it was incredibly crushing. It was a slap in the face. It was betrayal at its most basic form. For me, at least, it was, you know, I trusted this man to counsel me, to guide me to lead. We all trust our bishops to lead an entire congregation of people. And it was a wake up for me that said, this is not just an issue of the church headquarters. It's an issue that people your neighbors will face, your loved ones are going to face. If you know someone that's homosexual and living in the church, this is now an issue that is being fought on the front lines instead of, you know, at this institution in Salt Lake. And that's why I cried. I cried because I felt like the most basic teachings that I were. I was taught as a kid, you know, as a young adult, as a teen, were being questioned, you know, questioned. My character was being questioned, you know, and they call these things courts of love, but they're the most distant thing from love that I've ever encountered. And my mom and my grandma were really upset. And, you know, they. My mom said, well, this just changes everything. And my mom's not active, but she said, this changes everything about the way I feel about the church because no matter what, every time I would say something, you know, like, well, you know, I just think women should have the priesthood, my mom would always say, you know, this is who we are. We just need to love, you know, it's not the people. She always says it's not the people that we love. It's the. It's the gospel. It's the foundational teaching. She would always say that. And she said, this changes everything. I just feel so betrayed by. By the bishop and my grandma. She was excommunicated a long time ago, you know, probably 30 or 40 years ago. And I don't understand exactly the reasons why, but it had to do because she had a second marriage. And she said, this is just not fair. Why are they doing this? You know, because my mom's always said she's like, out of all my kids, you and Shawn have the best relationship. You know, she has four kids, and the other. My three sisters are all straight, and they're. Two of them are getting married. One of them is. Is married already been married for four or five years now. And, you know, it's just. It's incredibly Heartbreaking to feel like you're being tried, and I am being tried for. For something as pure and simple as being in a monogamous, loving, devoted relationship.
Church Policy, Mental Health, and Community Impact
John Dehlin [00:32:57] What if someone were to say, well, you. You know, you're not a member anymore, so you shouldn't care.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:33:03] Yeah, I mean, that's valid. I'm not a member anymore.
John Dehlin [00:33:06] I mean, I guess you're a member, but you're not, like, active anymore.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:33:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:33:09] You don't plan on being active.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:33:11] I mean, it's a good point. But for me, I care because there are lives at stake with this decision to actively persecute, you know, members of their congregation who are homosexual. Had I been someone with less of a sense of self or less of an awesome support system that I have with my family, or someone who is already depressed and filled with anxiety like I was when I was 18, you know, had this decision come down on me as an 18 year old who, you know, engaged in homosexual actions, I can't say that I would have made it out the person I am today. There are lives at stake, and the church needs to understand that if they choose to make homosexuality their next agenda, getting them out of the church for whatever reason, there are people with less self esteem, less sense of self, and less, you know, not as strong support systems who will suffer because of their decision. That's why I care about what's happening to me. I do not subscribe to the church anymore. I haven't considered myself an active member since I made my choice to live with Shawn. Since being with Sean, I have not subscribed to those teachings. But it's important for people to hear that if they choose this saying of love the sinner, hate the sin. I hope people realize that three of the active words in that sentence are negative. You know, hate sin, sinner versus love. I mean, the majority of what you're saying is a bad thing, you know, and I hope that people realize that different from. Is not inferior to. And just because I'm different from you does not mean that I'm less of a human being than you.
John Dehlin [00:35:16] Right. So mostly you're worried about how this is going to affect all the. All the LGBT members of the church who are still in.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:35:26] Yeah, definitely.
John Dehlin [00:35:29] Hmm. Yeah. You had mentioned something about the. The suicide rates in Utah. What is it that you said before we started the call?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:35:41] I forget the exact statistic, but the suicide rates. And it's the number one killer in Utah. Suicide of. Of teens and young adults. People don't realize that it's not drugs that are killing us. It's not other people that are killing us. It is ourselves that are killing us. And we are. You know, we will never know the exact reason why someone commits suicide, but, you know, it is statistically proven that if you have an LGBT member of your family and that member feels rejected or, or devalued in any way from their family, their friends, or their religious institution, that they are nine times more likely to commit suicide than if they have someone who values them and someone who accepts them and even celebrates them. You know, and I have friends right now who get kicked out of their home because they are choosing. Because they come out to their family as gay, not because they're choosing to be with someone same sex, but because they say, I am gay, Mom. It's too much for mom and dad to handle, and so they kick them out of their home. Why isn't the church condemning the action of kicking your blood out of your home? Why are they condemning the action of choosing to love, choosing to accept yourself? Why are they condemning that and condoning kicking your child out of your home? That's the real issue right here, you know, and yes, the church's views have evolved and they have said some really good things, but they also still say things like, you're counterfeit. That my marriage is counterfeit. That any lifestyle other than a Mormon man and wife choosing to have kids is counterfeit. And, you know, I say it in my blog that a truly counterfeit lifestyle would be to engage in a life that does not align with the being that God created me to be, my true self. And that's. That's incredibly important to me, you know?
John Dehlin [00:37:48] Yeah, well, it's powerful and it is super disappointing. I mean, if the church starts going after every legally same sex married couple, I just don't see how that doesn't become disastrous.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:38:07] Yeah, and I was speaking to one of my really close mentors from school today, and she's not Mormon, she's from out of state. So she has really, in the last four years, learned about Mormonism because she's a teacher at Weber State, a professor. I mean, she told me, she said, you know, this is a big issue, you know, and if she, she, she, she thinks that I'm not being, that I'm being excommunicated because I have an opinion, not because I'm married to a man, but because I make my opinions known and that if I were to be a quieter gay, I wouldn't be excommunicated. Which I, you know, I can see that point of view.
John Dehlin [00:38:51] But, but your bishop said it was about your.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:38:55] About my same sex marriage.
John Dehlin [00:38:57] Yeah, yeah.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:38:58] So that, but she said, you know, this is, this is going to start something. This is going to start a conversation which it needs to, you know, and I very well might be one among the first that is being excommunicated because I'm married to a man. You know, I'm not, I'm probably not the first. I'm sure it's happened before. But right now if this is something that the church is choosing to make an issue, it's going to have a domino effect. I have really close friends who are gay who go to church every single Sunday. I have multiple gay friends who go to church every single Sunday with their significant other.
John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:39:39] And I just don't understand why. In some words it's okay, but in some words it's not.
John Dehlin [00:39:43] Well, we'll see. Sometimes, like with Marisa and Carson Calderman, for now, their disciplinary council has been called off and so has Kirk and well, the, the Van Allen's that, that I interviewed previously as well. You know, sometimes when we do these interviews on Mormon stories, word ends up getting, you know, run up the flagpole and they end up, you know, they end up canceling. So, you know, we'll see. If you had a preference, would you rather them go through with this or would you rather them call this off?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:40:25] I, you know, in my heart I want them to not excommunicate me because I still, you know, I think that, I think somewhere deep down in my subconscious I feel like if I'm not, if I'm not baptized and I'm not a part of a church, that when I die, I'm going to not go to heaven. You know, I think we all think that at some base level, but you know, the advocate and the activist in me says yes, please excommunicate me. You know, make, make my voice heard even more than it already is, you know, and not to be incredibly self serving with that statement, but, you know, there's no reason why I need to be in the church, you know, for my day to day life.
John Dehlin [00:41:06] But you're not planning on attending any disciplinary council?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:41:10] I didn't go to the one on Sunday that I was invited to. I sent this letter in my absence that I have up on my blog.
John Dehlin [00:41:19] Okay, so the disciplinary council's happened.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:41:22] Yeah, and I guess I'm waiting to hear.
John Dehlin [00:41:24] Oh, okay. So whatever the decision is, we'll see if it's affected by the podcast, but the decision may already be made.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:41:35] Yeah, very well. Maybe made. By now, I know that my bishop will probably write me some sort of a letter explaining why I was excommunicated if I. If they choose to excommunicate me. I can't. My. My letter is very clear in stating that I have nothing to repent about. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not, you know, I don't need to repent for anything.
John Dehlin [00:41:57] Yeah.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:41:58] In my relate. In regards to my relationship with Sean, I'm not perfect, but I don't feel the need to hold this court of love or disciplinary counsel in high regards in my life right now.
John Dehlin [00:42:10] Yeah. Yeah.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:42:12] Okay.
John Dehlin [00:42:13] Well. So any plans for the future, you know, related to all this, or are you just going to kind of move on?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:42:23] I am. You know, like I said, I'm active in the LGBT community, especially up in Ogden. I'm still working on a new project with a bunch of my theater friends. We're piloting a program in Ogden for. It's a support group for youth age 14 to 23, and its mission statement is to provide upstream prevention for homelessness and suicide. So we're hoping that through this support group, we can save, you know, teens and young adults lives through the arts. You know, we're gonna pilot this program of using, like, visual arts and performing arts and all the other versions of the arts to bring people together in a safe place and talk about, you know, being safe sexually, being safe, mentally, emotionally, having a good, you know, sense of wellness, self esteem. So that's really, really my baby project right now that I'm really passionate about. But, I mean, obviously I want. I want the church to know that I'm still here, and I am not going to accept their version of, you know, this cookie cutter Mormon life, because I don't have that, and a lot of people don't have that. Most people don't have that, you know.
John Dehlin [00:43:49] Yeah. So is this group going to be in Utah or elsewhere?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:43:57] It's starting in Ogden. It's a program with a national family. I forget what the word is, what the group is called, but it's starting in Ogden, and then hopefully it will go statewide, and then hopefully it will go national.
John Dehlin [00:44:15] Yeah, okay.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:44:17] But we meet on Tuesdays in Ogden if there's any youth listening 14 to 24. And, you know, you just need a place to go and, you know, be safe. This is the place to do it. I'm sure I'll have more information up on my Facebook. Feel free to add me. You know, this is really important. Saving lives.
John Dehlin [00:44:40] Yeah. So will you send Me. Will you send me all the links?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:44:45] Yeah, definitely. Okay, I'll send you.
John Dehlin [00:44:47] Send me photos, links and I'll put them all up on my, on my site.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:44:51] Perfect.
John Dehlin [00:44:52] Okay. Well, I'm really sorry, you know, Taylor, that this is happening to you and Sean. I've been through it and it's humiliating. Even if you don't believe in the church's teachings anymore, it still feels humiliating. It still feels cruel and barbaric and it feels unjust and it's just really sad. So I guess I'm really sorry you have to. I'm really sorry you have to go through this.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:45:19] Yeah, I mean, side tangent. My dad struggles with addiction, alcohol and drugs. And one of the smartest things I was ever told in my life is that he's doing it so that you don't have to. And because of his addiction, I will never ever choose, you know, that path of drugs and alcohol. And I, I truly feel that right now this is happening to me so that it doesn't have to happen to somebody else. So.
John Dehlin [00:45:52] So you're hoping that that's kind of what happens?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:45:54] Yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, my bishop will get a hint and, you know, because of what he's doing to me, I hope that he doesn't do it to some, you know, 14 year old boy who comes to him next Sunday and says, I'm gay. What do I do? You know, I hope that he can choose a different path of, you know, solving this young boy or girl's problem.
Life After the Church and Looking Ahead
John Dehlin [00:46:22] Let me ask you just real quick, what have been your favorite roles you've played in the theater?
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:46:29] I kind of have a lot. At Hale Center Theatre, I was in Ragtime and that was really fun. And just at Weber, I was in a show called Will Rogers Follies and it was really fun, really, you know, heavy dancing and singing. But yeah, I can't say I have a favorite. I love them all.
John Dehlin [00:46:52] All right, all right. So you just. A lot of different roles.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:46:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:56] Okay. Well, the way that we usually end Mormon stories is by asking, asking, you know, interviewees to kind of share, you know, their testimony, whatever testimony they have left. And it can be, you know, it could be anything. It doesn't, you know, obviously not LDS for you, but if you had to share some final thoughts or feelings,
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:47:23] you
John Dehlin [00:47:23] know, with our listeners, you know, kind of what you stand for now or what you believe in now, you know, what's your version of a testimony for Taylor Knuth, bishop at age 22, right
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:47:38] now I am discovering how important having a Strong sense of self is through thick and thin, you know, knowing that you are who you are and, you know, leaning on people around you to love and support you, I think that's incredibly, you know, important. And realizing that, like I said, being different from is never inferior. To accept, understand, you know, celebrate who you are. Celebration is such a good word for, you know, this situation with homosexuals in the church, and it's, you can accept me all you want, but until you understand who I am and celebrate who I am, your love is not valued at, you know, as high. As high as people who celebrate me and love me and accept me and understand me. Just love one another. That's the most important thing we're taught, is to love one another and also love yourself.
John Dehlin [00:48:44] Right. Sounds familiar.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:48:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:48:51] Yeah. Well, that's important. All right, well, you know, please let us know what the verdict is, Taylor, when you hear back.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:49:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:03] Please give our best to Sean and on behalf of Mormon Stories listeners and myself, I just want to wish you and Taylor, you and Sean a really, really happy life. And while we're sorry this is happening to you, you know, I'm hopeful that maybe this story will get the church to stop what it's doing or at least contribute to that and help cooler heads to prevail because, you know, this really does feel like a travesty. It's risky for LGBT kids and youth and adults. It's. It feels unchristlike, and it feels like it's going to just keep adding more damage to the church. So, you know, thanks for being willing to tell your story.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:49:45] Thank you for being a conduit to let me tell my story.
John Dehlin [00:49:49] All right, Taylor, please keep in touch.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:49:50] Definitely. Thank you, John.
John Dehlin [00:49:52] All right. And all listeners, please go up to mormonstories.org if you have questions for Taylor. Want to share your thoughts or feelings? We sure appreciate your support for everyone who financially supports Mormon Stories. Just know that those donations are what keeps us alive. So thank you for that, and we have lots of good interviews coming up, so please stay tuned on Mormon Stories. We'll check back with you guys again soon. Thanks so much. Take care, Taylor.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:50:19] You too. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:50:27] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.
Taylor Knuth-Bishop [00:50:50] When with the wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart searching my soul.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
- Here is a link to the 2014 Grammy wedding ceremony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9ybs5L-bY
- Here is the letter Taylor received from his bishop, Morgan J. Roberts.
- Here is a link to Taylor’s response to his bishop.
- More photos of Taylor, Sean, and Taylor’s wonderful family.
- Information about Taylor’s Art program for LGBT youth and young adults:
135 Responses
Thanks for sharing your story, Taylor. Have a long, happy, loving relationship with Sean in which each of you is enhanced by the other. Take your time to process all the church has meant to you, done for you, done TO you, and then move on. You don’t need it. Best of luck!
It’s just another way to keep the hate.
Shame on the church.
This is going to split up families once again.
No, Jeremy … don’t “keep the hate”. It’s a sad thing. Sad for both – these same-sex married couples AND for the church. I hope everyone on both sides can see that all this hurts everyone. Church leaders just haven’t yet figured out that this is just the wrong thing to do. The church hasn’t yet figured out that a lot of the things it does (and teaches) is the wrong thing.
And it’s sad that families put church and religious beliefs before love and forgiveness and acceptance and just simple human decency. People who do that tear families apart. Not churches.
Awesome letter. I wish you an awesome future together!
I understand the desire and the need to have the church to accept, to have our Prophet guide the fold to accept those who are LGBT. It is important because so many youth in Utah deal with this.
As long as the Church considers homosexuality a sin, disciplinary action should be expected.
The church considers homosexual acts sins, not homosexuality. Being a homosexual is not a choice and the official church stance doesn’t suggest that it is. Disciplinary action should be expected in the case of church members acting on their homosexuality. Obviously there’s room for discussion on case-by-case situations, and hence the summons to plead their case, but the church is very unlikely to change their stance on this as they have in the past with other matters, as the Family Proclamation to the World declaration clearly lays out. In this couple’s reply, they have made it clear that they have not been following the teachings of the church. Being same-sex married isn’t the issue here, it’s the same-sex sex.
Brad, it seems to me you are playing devils advocate in favor of the church,but it’s not really working for me. I think being “same sex married” is the issue….most couples who are married have sex and all different kinds of sex. Why would this couple follow the teachings of the church when the church clearly doesn’t support them as loving human beings. Look deeper within sir and then pray about it. I think the church will change their stance on the issue of same sex marriage as a new era of LDS members become the governing body of the church. Polygamy has changed and racism somewhat has changed all on the account of a Prophet claiming to have been given a revelation from God that those things should no longer be practiced. IT WILL ALL CHANGE FOR THE BETTER!
Sara, I love your comment. I also choose to love. Being married for 19 years to an amazing woman, and for that sacred marriage to end because of my finally being strong enough to be authentic to who I really am has been devastating. I don’t believe that the church will change its stance on same sex marriage, although I wish it could. I hope for a separation between state and church. I hope that the state will enforce a civil marriage prior to a temple marriage. I have 4 children who will likely (and I of course will support them) choose to be married in the temple. I wont be permitted to attend their ceremonies if church and state work together to keep me out of the temples. This breaks my heart.
I don’t pray for the church to change their minds. Their stance is too firm and they wont be able to change and still save face. I do pray for the church to be less aggressive in it’s judgments. I pray for the separation that will allow me to attend my kids’ weddings. The church is entitled to it’s beliefs, and is entitled to enforce them. I am wanting respect for my choices and beliefs, and in turn should be willing to respect theirs.
It’s such a difficult topic. Moreso when you are so involved in it, because of who you were born to be.
Graron, I’m with you in this one. I have 5 children whom Ilove with all my heart. Had my marriage end because I was dealt a deck of cards that only I could play.
I’m fortunate to live in a country where State weddings happen before the Temple sealing. So I will get to see each child walk down the isle with whomever they choose. Knowing I can’t witness their sealings is a tough one to deal with none-the-less.
I am however grateful to be in a position where through my experience, I can soften my children’s hearts, thinking and opinions of others who are not in the church or the same colour. I get to teach them the TRUE meaning of Christlike, unconditional love, and the difference between knowing about it and actually practising it. I get to teach them to refrain from judgement when they don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. And I get to do this because I have walked on and experience both sides of the fence.
I have the most amazing children for it.
Knowing the church won’t change, perhaps pray you can have a great influence in your children’s lives to know the difference between knowing and doing….
Wait, so you were in a good relationship with an “amazing woman” and you choose to break it off (complete with all the family disruption and everything) just because you chose to be someone else than you were? I don’t mean to be harsh, but how can you not say that you brought this on yourself?
I thought that part of a marriage, and life, was striving to be better than we were. Regardless of where you came from, or what your natural tendencies were, you had (from the sounds of it) a great relationship and a wonderful family.
Bring gay (if that was the cause) does not determine who you can marry. You have the option to choose either path. You had a wonderful family and them broke it off because of your partner’s gender?
I don’t know your personal story, and I’m really not trying to be rude (though you may take it that way), but it just seems heartbreaking to me that someone would feel the need to end a great relationship with an amazing person because he might be attracted to someone else or another gender or he wasn’t sexually attracted to his wife. None of those things should matter in a marriage relationship. We give up a part of ourselves to build the family together and we don’t have to be sexually attracted to someone to love them or want to build a family with them.
I worry that you might have been misled into thinking that you were “being true to yourself” when you didn’t have to be. Sometimes, being true to your commitments, or even your family, should take higher priority than your own personal preference.
I understand this is very hard for you and I may not be making it any easier. As you said, it is a heartbreaking situation. I think that it is beautiful that you would still support your children in temple marriage, even if you cannot attend. I wish you and your family all the best, and I hope you can find your path to happiness, wherever that may be. Take care, and God bless.
P.S. Civil marriage then temple sealing seems to be a regular thing in other countries (where the state doesn’t recognize church marriages, at all). Maybe that’ll be adopted stateside; or I’ve heard they can do a ring-exchanging ceremony separate from the temple marriage, so that other family members can still participate.
Sara, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is obviously shown in the scriptures that same sex marriage is not of God. It never said in the scriptures to exclude African Americans, nor did it ever say you have to take more than one wife. God is never changing. Having same sex tendencies isn’t a sin. Temptation is not transgression. However when you act on those tendencies, that’s when it becomes a sin. Everyone has to fight the “natural man” in many different ways. Like having addictive tendencies, or anger issues, it’s the same as homosexual tendencies. We all have to fight to stay afloat.
Megan,
You assert that God does not approve of gay marrage. I am not aware of him ever saying anything on that subject.
Can you supply some references please?
I’m so grateful that God is my only judge, and Christ as my advocate – They love me, regardless.
Megan, you said the scriptures say that same sex marriage is not of God. Geoff asked if God ever said anything on the subject. Permit me to provide my reply. I begin with Genesis Chapter 1:27. (All Bible references are KJV)
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
Genesis 5:1 and 2 reiterate this, saying that God created man in his likeness, male and female.
The image and likeness of God is not male and female. It is not female and female. It is not male and male.
Leviticus 18:22 – Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 – If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Romans 1:27 – And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
I am familiar with two languages other than English. I understand the difficulty found in attempts to accurately translate. I am aware others have offered different interpretations of the verses I cited, holding they do not address the issue of homosexuality.
For those who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I offer “The Family – A Proclamation to the World,” as additional evidence God has spoken on this issue.
This document was signed by fifteen men who are prophets, seers, and revelators. They signed as members of their respective quorums, the Quorum of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. By so doing, they stated to the world they were speaking in their official capacities as prophets, seers, and revelators. Thus, they were speaking for God.
They stated, “We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.”
Based on the above, I do not see how those who accept the Bible as the word of God, and more particularly, those who say they sustain the fifteen signatories to the Proclamation as prophets, seers, and revelators, can say God has not spoken on this issue.
Nope, it will not Change.
Thank you!
Spoken like a true homosexual who is afraid to come out. Get over it. They are happy and what gives you the right to define sin? Mormons have a heritage of sin, including many prophets and church leaders who were arsonists, polygamists, mystics, conjurers, convicted felons, habitual liars, con artists, anarchists, American defectorss, murderers, etc. You’ll stand by them no matter what, but you won’t speak out in support of a happy gay couple? What hypocrisy!
“arsonists, mystics, conjurers, convicted felons, habitual liars, con artists, anarchists, American defectorss, murderers”
give it to me…. Name off those church leaders
Brad, I think this was incredibly well said. I agree with you 100%.
You are correct. Unrepentant Sin is grounds for excommunication.
As is having public conversations about questions of church origin and history, even though the historical record makes such questions quite rational and predictable. So, does that making thinking a sin in the modern church, or only if you think out loud?
It isn’t THE CHURCH that considers homosexuality a sin. GOD said it is a sin. The Church cannot condone what God has said is sin. What do other churches say? Many of them believe the same thing. You don’t get to change God’s laws just because society has accepted them.
True, it is written in scripture(which could be erroneous given the hand of man in its production) that homosexuality doesn’t sit right with God. True, many churches have this same teaching. I do not see, however, that other churches take disciplinary action against their members who are homosexual. I guess other churches just don’t “Love” their members as much. Meh.
The LDS church would be much better off to spend more energy in loving all in the world instead of trying to define for all in the world how to love.
I support Taylor and wish him and his husband much happiness in life. Well written response to an ignorant Bishop.
Mykel, I think you need to clarify that YOUR God said it is a sin. Many people believe in a different – or no – God, and their beliefs drive their lives, thoughts and behaviors. You are free to believe in, worship and follow the word of YOUR God, just as I am and others are.
The problem is, THE CHURCH takes ITS God’s word and tries to (no, does) impose ITS beliefs on those of us who are not its members. And now, seeing it can’t impose ITS will on its members’ civil rights, their next step is to kick them out of the fold.
However, while I think its actions are mean, vile, and vindictive, I fully support their right to do so. That’s the separation of church and state (too bad it doesn’t work both ways).
Mykel…
The church does condone what God has said is sin:
1. Murder. With the doctrine of Blood Atonement and the Mountain Meadow Massacre the church (its general and local leaders) condoned murder.
2. Adultery. Plural marriage is simply adultery and was condoned by the church.
3. Lying. The church condones lying on its behalf. General authorities have lied to governments and to the membership base for almost 200 years.
4. Idols. The church condones the idolization of general authorities, specifically the top 15 male leaders of the church.
There are four ways Mormonism condones practices forbidden by God.
Capital punishment is not murder and the Bengal authorities had no part in Mountain Meadows (except maybe to administer discipline to the culprits).
Adultery doesn’t exist in a marriage relationship, only outside of it.
We’re not supposed to idolize the leaders, but it’s good to listen to what they say when they speak with wisdom or through the Spirit.
Don’t know how you can claim they’ve been lying the whole time (other than to say that you don’t believe in the church, ergo they must be lying).
Um, autocorrect on my tablet. That should have said “general”, not “Bengal”. Obviously, the Bengal authorities also had no part in it, but that wasn’t my point.
I just read your letter to the bishop Taylor and can say with all my heart congratulations on your marriage to your husband and that I too choose love. Thank you for being respectful in your words but illustrating your basic right to love and be happy, and standing up when our faith is in the wrong. Hugs to you both and wishing the best!
Beautiful response to the bishopric! Congrats on finding true love. This life is too short to not spend it with the person you love. Thank God the world is finally coming around to that idea. Too bad the Mormon church is still stuck in the dark ages.
You seem to think the church is ran by men and not god, who changes not for the will of man. The dark ages? Sin does not stop being sin because more people are OK with it.
Actually, it does. The Mormon church once pretty much treated dark skin as the penalty of sin. Apparently that changed. Infidelity was once considered sin, until it was re-marketed as celestial marriage. On the flip side, alcohol, tobacco and coffee were not sins until Emma got tired of the mess, which didn’t keep Brigham from profiting off booze in the Utah territory after the move west. (Previous example employed simply to demonstrate how perceptions change just because someone who has assumed the mantle of authority and chosen-ness has a thought.)
And if God’s word is unchanging over the centuries, who to explain the Bible? In Leviticus alone, the sins include burning yeast or honey in offerings to God, eating fat, touching an unclean animal, having unruly hair and tearing clothes.
How are mere mortals supposed to sort out all the contradictions?
Never said god changes his law, just said men don’t influence it
But Emma does!
If “men don’t influence it” then why pray and ask for things? How about official declaration 2 when God changed the law after much prayer?? — “He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood…”
Of course men influence laws, that’s the reason the world is the way it is. Men not only influence laws but create laws, change laws, twist laws to their convenience, etc. They do this to civil laws and religious laws. This happens in every country and every church, including the LDS church. Example: LDS church lobbying to fight same sex marriage in every state= influencing the laws of the land/taking rights from others.
It’s a business like any other….Ran by men, for the benefit of men. Funny how their view of “sin” has changed over the years…..all through the course of “revelations” by the “prophet” when God apparently changes his very fickle mind.
The church changes its stance on issues. Look at the history. Blacks have the priesthood now- primary example. There is room for change.
If you have ever really looked into the history of the church it had always been believed that blacks would eventually be able to hold the priesthood… Even when it was first made widely known that they couldn’t for a time, the leaders said someday they would eventually. I admit I do not fully understand why they originally said blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood, I have heard that maybe the world was not ready for it.
However it had never been said our church would eventually accept same sex marriage, in fact quite the opposite.
If you understand the gospel you see the reason for this life is to become like God, God has children, us. We believe marriage was meant to last for eternity, and that we will always be progressing. Progressing meaning have more children and eventually creating our own world’s where our children can learn. Same sex marriage will never result in children. Yes there are some hetero sexual marrages that are unable to have children in this life, but we believe our bodies will be made perfect and therefore they will be able to procreate and progress in the eternities. Same sex marriages will never be able to produce their own children. Same sex marriages may have a place in this life but it doesn’t in eternity, therefore God cannot condone it. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t love all his children, or that he doesn’t want them to be happy. He does, and those who mistreat the lgbt community will be punished for not trying to be as God, who loves all his children. But through that perfect love he has he cannot condone marriages that cannot exist eternally, that would be setting his children up to fail, and for a great deal of eternal unhappiness and heartache. Which no loving parent would knowingly do too their children.
This young man does not understand the gospel, and that’s fine… To each their own beliefs, but that bishop only had good intentions for him in mind. That young man should not have to be held accountable for being a member of God’s church and disobeying God’s law.
You may not understand but that is my understanding.
I don’t fully understand all the trails of this world, I don’t know why life is so unfair, but I do believe that if we follow God’s commandments and live or lives as he would have us do, he will compensate for all that we lose out on and suffer.
Katie – in response to your first sentence, I would urge you to check out church history a little farther back. There was a black man who held the Priesthood in Kirtland during Joseph Smith’s time there. His name was Black Pete. The Restoration began in 1830, not when Brigham Young got to Utah Territory.
Thank you for your great comment. How I feel indeed. You explained it very well!
Well done! Beautifully written letter to this Bishop! You are an old Soul…and you see the clarity of authentic Love. Love always wins.
The only response is TOTAL Acceptance…that some of the irrational human egos of this world will continue to throw the illusion of judgement towards those that they cannot control. Their Souls are still young and still learning what Christ-Like unconditional Love is. Some people just don’t see the Light…until the day they die. This is their lesson to learn for now.
Continue to embrace your path.
Hi so curious when God says in the bible men who lie with men will not inherit the kingdom he was being serious I am assuming and didn’t he destroy sodom and gomorrah for homosexuality acts? I know God isn’t like the Governments of this world who change with how the world goes since Gods word doesn’t change at all and never has so If people are to read the word of God and obey then did he not mean what he said in the bible? Take a look at how many things are now allowed that never have been and just cuz we are in a new century does that mean God changes what he has set forth in the Bible? Just boggled my mind a bit after reading that and thinking gosh I know God loves us all but he has set some rules as what I can read on what not to do or we will pay for it. Just thought I would bring that up since it is what I read and was curious if everyone’s bible said the same.1 Corinthians 6:9. 9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom?+ Do not be misled.* Those who are sexually immoral,*+ idolaters,+ adulterers,+ men who submit to homosexual acts,+ men who practice homosexuality,*+
1 Timothy 1:1-20 Verse 10 but read all of it. Leviticus 18:22.
While the Bible disapproves of homosexual acts, it does not condone hatred of homosexuals or homophobia. Instead, Christians are directed to “respect everyone.”—1 Peter 2:17,
so basically what i’m getting is that god condemns homosexuality between men. no mention of women in there…
erego, God is a lesbian.
Lets also remember that the old testament was fulfilled through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Please quote from the New Testament, if the laws are to have standing. The Old testament is to improve our knowledge and understanding of God, and is also a great example of the evolution of how God works.
Christians regularly mistake pity for respect. It’s condescending. You can keep your respect.
Oh my, Mr. “What I read in the Bible.” Do you have a daughter? What about the dowry? The Bible is clear on this one. Have your future son-in-law follow the Bible ─ 1 Samuel 18:25 KJV ─ and get the dowry you disserve. Oh my is right. Let’s just follow the Bible to the word on everything! Oh, and don’t forget the Lobster ─ Leviticus 11:12 ─ no! no! can’t have that ‘abomination’! And then we have the real ‘gem’, Genesis 19:32 KJV! Yeah, this is the Bible’s council on ultimate incest . . . Oh My! . . . So, Mr. “What I read in the Bible,” do you follow 1 Samuel 18:25, Leviticus 11:12, and Genesis 19:32?
I find odd and disheartening, that two people who love each are facing disciplinary action, when a convicted child abuser is allowed to keep there temple recommend, and calling. I would rather have two loving energetic people in my congregation, than a child abuser.
I wish you the best.
Kaye,
The basis of the disciplinary council on their case is the fact that there is no desire to change their actions that are viewed as sinful. Regardless of the sin that brings someone to a disciplinary counsel, their case is addressed individually and decisions are made on based on their beliefs/testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and doctrines of His Church. I am in no way standing up for a child abuser, however, to truly believe in Christ is to believe in his love for EVERY single person and His desire for EVERY single person to accept HIS will and plan of happiness. He loves the abuser and the homosexual. Neither persons actions are acceptable to him, but those who are sincerely willing to work with him are always offered grace. It’s always about those willing to work hard to follow him. Sean and Taylor have made a decision to pursue their lifestyle. It is not congruent with God’s teachings, therefore they are accountable, but no less loved by the members of the disciplinary council and most definitely no less loved by God.
Good for you Taylor Nathan Knuth-Bishop. Keep standing up for yourself and your husband. Religion should never control your happiness. My prayers for you and your husband and both of your happiness to continue to stay strong
Although we have never met, Sean’s mom is my step-sister. I discovered their story on Facebook, “friended” Sean and have followed his story since the wedding. I cannot imagine a more upstanding, loving couple than Sean and Taylor.
The difference that one generation can make is astounding. My own mother, devout 5th generation LDS literally set me on the curb at 16 because I was gay. Sean’s grandfather, who he never knew, was my lifeline at the time. My stepfather stood by me when I was abandoned by my blood relatives and ensured that I was physically okay.
At the same time, I was called into the bishop’s office and threatened with excommunication. I explained my situation to him, laughing that that was the least of my worries. I was literally just trying to survive, and here was this fool threatening me with further alienation. I never looked back, but never forgot the abandonment of the church.
It does my heart good to see Sean and Taylor’s acceptance but breaks my heart to see the bigotry and hatred from the church. As much as many things change for the better….some things never do.
“………..but the church is very unlikely to change their stance on this as they have in the past with other matters, as the Family Proclamation to the World declaration clearly lays out.”
That is until the “prophet” has another one of those well timed “revelations” that strangely seem to coincide with the government threatening the loss of their tax exempt status or standing from a regulations standpoint.
Personally I laughed in the Bishop’s when threatened with excommunication. Now I have trouble getting my name expunged from the membership roll. I want absolutely nothing to do with a loveless, bigoted institution that really has no place making value judgements about civil “marriage” in the first place.
John, I’ve been following your podcast for years, and appreciate that you’ve allowed me, an outsider, to interact. Normally I try to keep it to only the particular interview at hand. But on this subject I’d rather speak more generally. From past interviews I understand that you no longer have what I’ll call a “high” view of scripture; You want to hold to certain “core” ideas, for example love — love your neighbor, etc. But for those of us who hold to a high view of scripture and believe that all scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim 3:16), the biblical teaching on the subject is clear. I want to be loving and careful myself how I say this, but Jesus said
4 … Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19:4-6)
Some observations from these verses: God made us man and woman (v. 4), and it’s been that way from the beginning (v. 4). Part of the design is that we have a father and mother (v. 5), and we were that way so that we should find a mate of the opposite sex (v. 5 “for this cause…”). This relationship is God-ordained (v. 6).
There is nothing in the Bible about same-sex marriage. The Bible has nothing good to say about same-sex sexual relations, and is a thoroughly heterosexual book throughout. I know this is not the popular view, but I have to speak the truth in love. The whole “love” argument breaks down as soon as you fill-in-the blank with any other abomination — bestiality, incest, “intergenerational love”. But they’re all on the horizon, and the arguments are exactly the same: God made me that way, how can you deny me love?, etc.
I’ll line up for the tomatoes now, but for anyone interested in the biblical view, Michael Brown has written a really good book — Can you be Gay and Christian?
The moment we confess to know anything, we know nothing.
“As long as the Church considers homosexuality a sin, disciplinary action should be expected.” But doesn’t EVERY member sin?
Every member sins, but they probably don’t embrace their sin as a lifestyle, and ask others to celebrate it.
Just like the Temple says – they are legally and lawfully married. Action against the couple is shameful, bigoted and inspired by anything but God.
Legal by man’s law, not God’s.
You’re quoting out of context: it’s mentioned directly after “Between the Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve.” Law of chastity is pretty strict on that one.
Taylor hasn’t been actively engaged with the church in some time. Hasn’t held a calling, hasn’t done any ordinances, hasn’t been serving in any priesthood capacity, nor has he tried to incorporate his new family into a church congregation. He also hasn’t asked for its approval of any aspect of his life since he stopped attending, nor has he been acting as representative of the church in any way. So I find it inappropriate for the church in his hometown to suddenly want to hold a disciplinary court for a person they’ve had no dealings with for years, who lives across the country in a completely different jurisdiction, and who has not petitioned their recognition in any way. It’s not only inappropriate, but it’s presumptuous, rude, and as he pointed out, un-Christlike.
And by your argument why is he so offended to be released or excommunicated from his obligations as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? He hasn’t been actively involved in his home congregation, or a congregation in NY from the sounds of it so again, why is he so upset by the proceedings? If a member is engaging in acts that are in violation of the covenant (much more serious than just a promise as it is a promise entered into with God) entered into at baptism and the member is not interested in following the teachings of the Church, then is it not a more loving thing to release them from that obligation/covenant, which is what excommunication does? That is an act of love, a process which releases the member from the higher expectations and responsibilities associated with membership requirements. Excommunication is not necessarily a negative or bad thing.
“That is an act of love, a process which releases the member from the higher expectations and responsibilities associated with membership requirements.”
As a non-mormon, I’ve heard this type of thing from mormons over the years. I always thought that abdicating personal responsibility and simply following the dictates of the LDS prophet was taking the low road, the easy road, the low expectation and non-responsibility road.
People who take responsibility for their own choices, who consider perspectives and make their own decisions, who are willing to deeply examine themselves – that’s a high standard and a major responsibility. Following the prophet, to me, is just throwing up your hands and saying “life is too hard, tell me what to think and do.”
he’s offended because if you listened to the podcast he’s worried about what this will do for other LGBTQ+ youth who are actively attending church (most likely in the closet), and see that the church has no room in its collective heart for them as sons and daughters of God. This aggressive invasion of Taylor and Sean’s privacy by waging a war on them by threatening excommunication when they weren’t even attending or trying to attend church, is a very hostile and offensive action. How can you call it an act of love? Taylor and Sean were not seeking any input from the church nor recognition for their marriage by it. they were minding their own business, living their lives happily, and the church saw fit to insert themselves in the middle of that out of nowhere. this level of aggression is something that Taylor fears will further ostracize and alienate those struggling LGBTQ+ youth who may already be struggling to feel loved and accepted to the point of potentially ending their lives. How do you think this so called “act of love” is going to inspire those kids or young adults to feel like they have a safe haven in the one place everyone deserves to feel safe and loved? Their CHURCH! I’ll echo what another commenter asked, and challenge you to show me where Jesus ever excommunicated anyone of his followers for their sins. Or even mentioned excommunication at all. Jesus was the epitome of love and acceptance regardless of your background or struggles.
Beautifully said, gamyr. Beautifully said.
gamyr,
The LDS Church has stated it has room for persons with same sex attraction. It has also said acting on those feelings is a sin. Excommunication is a potential consequence.
Aggressive invasion of privacy does not seem to square with a very public wedding. If their wedding and their religious affiliation were publicly linked, the Church is within its rights to eliminate the link. It is also within its rights to decide who will be a member and on what conditions.
If you love someone, and you believe there is something in that person’s life that is harmful to them, you seek the most effective way of communicating the concern and bringing about a change. If you believe someone is engaging in a very serious sin, you tell them. If you are a church, there comes a point when the best thing to do is excommunicate them.
The New Testament does not discuss Christ’s church as a structure or formal organization. We know little of it as such. The word “excommunication” does not appear in the New Testament.
We know that Christ was often at odds with the Scribes and Pharisees. We know that he cleansed his Father’s House, the Temple. He drove out those who defiled it. This, if you will, is analogous to excommunication.
I agree that Christ is the epitome of love. It does not follow that all he did was comfort the afflicted. He also afflicted the comfortable. In addition to cleansing the Temple and upsetting the Scribes and Pharisees, he did not have a kind word for King Herod. Christ called Herod a fox.
Christ also spoke of an event analogous to an excommunication. He said,
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
Matthew 7:22-23
In short, Christ’s love is not accepting of everyone, everything, and every behavior.
I applaud Taylor and Sean for their courage, their determination and the pure and true love they share. I think the LDS church is missing out by not having these two wonderful men as part of the organization. They could definitely teach many of the members valuable lessons about acceptance and family and devotion and just Christlike love.
and to those who have quoted all these scriptures regarding same sex behavior and consequences from the Bible= let me add one “John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.”
Putting the issue of the Church’s view of homosexuality aside for a moment (though I do think they are wrong on this issue), why does the Church keep disciplining individuals who aren’t even active? It’s like anyone who disagrees is dust on the Church’s shoes and must ceremoniously be shaken off. Seriously, unless someone has done something truly cruel, abusive or illegal what’s the point? It seems like these “courts of love” are more about proving authority by giving people the priesthoods version of the middle finger.
Excommunication is NOT a punishment. It is blessing. If Taylor remained a member of the Church, held the priesthood and made Covenants with God at baptism AND then turned away without any leadership intervention, then Taylor would be in bigger trouble than had he never learned the name of Christ. Greater condemnation goes to those who receive knowledge and then reject it, while knowing the difference. This isn’t man’s church led by an elected official; this is the Lord Jesus Christ’s church restored to the earth with living Apostles and Prophets like all others read about in the Bible. The church is led by Jesus Christ and He is and always will be the same yesterday, today and forever.
Wow. I love your statement that exing is not a punishment. I truly did LOL. Taylor is in “bigger trouble”?? Do you even see how silly it is to say that?
God, Jesus Christ have changed a lot even during my own lifetime, let alone the centuries before. The only time Christ led the church was when he was actually alive and led it.
The mormon churhc is led by man. Yes, they quote God occasionally, but men make the rules and come up with the revelations to suit society at the time.
Come on, you know better. Excommunication is just that, a punishment and a way to wield power. No love involved.
Have your lifestyle judged and condemned, get excommunicated for doing nothing wrong, and see how “blessed” you feel.
Your ignorance is showing. Might want to tuck that in, it’s not modest.
This is a complete load and so representative of the level of brainwashing you’ve undergone. It follows no logic. The fact is, he already did “turn away”. That choice was made 4 years ago. So his bishop’s sudden intervention is purely altruistic? You’re saying that 4 years after Taylor stopped being active to follow his truth, the bishop has been inspired to spare him he wrath that God has in store for him by dissolving his membership so that God won’t hold him to the level of accountability that he would have had his name remained on the church reocrds? You’re saying that matters of the Spirit and eternity can be drastically affected by paperwork? Good to know. Good thing that bishop was so on his game.
legally and lawfully idols not necessarily mean the law of the land but the law of The Lord
I’ve never heard of any cases when the Mormon Church has disciplined parents who have abandoned their gay teenager by kicking them out of the house.
Apologies for posting without listening to the episode first, but I want to throw this out there before it gets buried by a bunch of other comments.
According to Taylor’s blog, this letter from the bishop is the first communication on the matter. It appears the bishop isn’t following standard church procedure of reaching out first to get to know Taylor and warn him before threatening him with a church court. I wonder if the bishop sees Taylor’s marriage as several steps too far in order to justify the threat.
Also, Taylor is completely inactive and not trying to influence any other members of his ward as far as I know. I don’t mean to sound alarmist, but I wonder if this is a sign the church is expanding the purge to ordinary inactive members. It doesn’t really affect me if they are, but I worry about others who might be in a more precarious position with their spouse or family members.
Although I am heterosexual, I had a similar experience when I moved back home after living with my boyfriend out of state. The bishop in my parents’ ward approached me and asked me to promise that I would never do that again. I felt as though he was bargaining for my soul. I declined, and during my excommunication hearing, I informed them that, while the excommunication didn’t affect me or my beliefs, it deeply affected my family. I believed (and still believe) that excommunication is not to be wielded as a sword, which it frequently is. I remain hopeful that the church will continue on the path that they have started, but their continued intolerance and poor treatment of the LGBTQ community is the primary reason that I had no qualms about being excommunicated, and I have no intention of ever returning.
I cannot help but notice the hypocrisy inherent in the church’s actions or in peoples interpretation of the bible in this matter. Adultery is listed as a sin in the bible,right? So called plural marriage is a complete abomination to anything Godly in my opinion, yet it was practiced ad nauseam (more than 30 wives, underage girls, etc…) by the founders of this church. But this church changed the definition of marriage to condone these ghastly sins. Same sex marriage is a commitment between two people. How could this possibly compare to the abusive, adulterous, exploitative practice of polygamy that was and still is condoned by the church? Total absolute hypocrisy. Best luck to the two of you, always!
This is really interesting. I am going to be watching this closely. A legally and lawfully wedded couple exercising their full legal and moral rights and responsibilities within the protections of a state recognized institute of marriage, subject to excommunication by the LDS church.
Is this what the church has in mind as it blows the religious freedom horn? To reach inside of marriages and excommunicate legal and lawful spouses? Spouses that are in the business of securing life, liberty and happiness, raising children under the legal umbrella that is marriage? What if they claim celibacy inside the marriage? What if they are strictly true to one another sexually? The LDS church accepts same sex attraction. Is it really the sex act that we get hung up and high centered on? Remember Spencer Kimball’s foray into the sex act arena? Sending out a statement condemning (not sure if it was read from the pulpit) oral sex as an “impure and unholy practice”? Another memo read, and I think it read “abhorrent connubial practices” (oral sex). Other talks by the bretheren condemning even “unholy speech and practices” during sex between couples. Is this a church even considering free will, and worthy to claim the name of Jesus Christ? A church so controlling, as to start dictating what happens in the bedroom? Which is exactly what the church is doing towards this wonderful couple. Condemned for same sex attraction? No. Condemned for following and adhering to the law of the land by being married. Probably. Condemned for the banality of the sex act? Definitely. And I say banal, because that’s what the sex act is with its myriad ways and inventive approaches. There is nothing different between the sexes when it come to the act, and nothing goes on in the homo bedroom that doesn’t go on in the hetero one, yet that seems to be the kryptonite of religion, and be all the difference in the world. It won’t fly with the young, and if the church ever had concern keeping its numbers, this is not how to do it. Please somebody help me……..what am I missing?
All of the people who are using the bible to condemn this loving, monogamous married couple need to do a little more scholarly research surrounding the 7 “clobber verses” and the Sodom and Gomorrah tale. (It was about breaking hospitality laws and people were regularly raped as punishment in those days. The Leviticus verse is referring to purity laws–eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics are also “abominations” but you don’t see people getting disciplined for eating at Red Lobster! Jesus himself was silent on the issue, but he had a lot to say about divorce. Do you realize how many more verses are in the bible condemning divorce than anything “homosexual”? That word can’t even be found in any bible printed before 1952. Read David Chapman’s book for a thorough study of each of those 7 verses. Oh–and why didn’t god set up punishments for the thousands of other species that engage in some level of homosexual activity? It isn’t natural? They beg to differ. Pretty sure they didn’t choose their lifestyle…There is evolutionary benefit to a portion of the population being homosexual or this population would not have remained constant throughout history. Just thinking maybe science is something we ought to integrate even if we want to believe in a set of writings written in different eras by random people chosen to have theirs included in this book by the early church. Who knows? Maybe another perspective was excluded by these men and you never got to read it. A book written by Simon LeVay details all the studies around sexual orientation, and it is fascinating. It also points unequivocally to the fact that it is biology, not choice. I grew up in the LDS church and no, I am not heterosexual. Luckily my family accepted me and I didn’t lose them like so many others lose theirs.
As the last line of your letter states “If you don’t believe in sex-same marriage, don’t have one.” The same goes for you and all same-sex marriages….if you want to have a same-sex marriage, don’t expect the Church to accept it. You knew when you got involved in a same-sex relationship and then eventually same-sex marriage that it is conduct that is not accepted by the Church. Therefore your membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was and is in jeopardy of being dissolved. Yes the Church teaches love and acceptance of all of God’s children. But there are choices and with those choices are consequences. There are many, many things an individual can do to put their church membership in jeopardy. This is just one of the many. The Church does not single out the same-sex individuals. You do that on your own by choosing to be involved in conduct that is not accepted by the Church. Just like if you wanted to join a club or anything other group, there are rules and accepted conduct. And on a side-note….only temple marriages are for eternity. Legal earthly marriages are for time only. Thank you. I wish you the best.
The point is, the Church & it’s leaders don’t follow it’s own written laws and teachings, so how can they judge anyone else? It’s all about the beam and the mote.
Since the Church’s beginning, it has not followed the scriptures on so many things far far worse then homosexuality, so they can hardly pretend to be righteous enough to judge when others don’t either.
And Christ had some pretty harsh words for ‘hypocrites’.
For a religion that prides itself on not being judgmental they are quick to judge against human beings! If you take away the labels and the gender what you have left are two human beings that love each other and that are productive members of society.
ok time to chime in here i am eagerly awaiting the “revelation” from the church Leadership once the supreme court has made its ruling on the legality of same sex marriage (just like they did after the civil rights movement AKA
blacks receiving the priesthood)the Revelation “gay is good” will make the church leadership look like the hypocrites they are
Yes, I also think it won’t will be very long now before the Church receives a new ‘revelation’ to allow SSM, just like it did with so many other things it once called ‘abominations’, but then completely embraced and called such things ‘wonderful’ once the majority wanted it.
Aren’t these married men obeying the letter of the Law of Chastity as found in the temple ceremony itself?
“We are instructed to give unto you the law of chastity, which is that each of you shall have no sexual relations except with your husband or wife to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded.”
They are in compliance! Read it yourself!
Why does this surprise anyone? Why condemn the Mormon church for excommunicating members who went against the church’s beliefs? The catholics would excommunicate you if you got a divorce (a LEGAL divorce!) You can expect to get chastised in this situation. By the way, I support same-sex marriage and divorces.
From a distance it would appear that there is a pandemic of LDS youth coming out of the closet up there in Utah. Asking the Church to take a different stand on same sex marriage is simply not possible. One of the differences that the LDS Church has is it’s foundation on Eternal Family. Another is the way it mirrors a Patriarchal Jewish organization while holding a deep belief, at least on the surface, on the Jesus/Pauline Church doctrine as any conventional Protestant denomination. It is hard for me to understand how can a member, specially one born inside the Gospel, can not instinctively know that he/she is threading deep water and the outcome can only be a painful one for everybody. But I do agree that help is needed for youth dealing with their sexuality. Because of the close bonds of family and community in many cases the fall out for the Church would be less if some counselling [not the brimstone and fire type] was provided for all parties involved. Free Will, Self Agency. In the end all of us would be have to answer for our actions. But individual self responsibility should not be avoided. The Church mirrors more perhaps the Jerusalem Church of old than the Pauline Church. If a a member one does not understand this all that time in Seminary was lost.
I hope the press picks this up. It’s wrong for them to go searching out couples who are inactive and disciplining them.
Are they going after members who are living together and not married who are inactive?
Reading the letter to the Bishop and also many of the comments, I do have a few things to add.
There are many comments that are good. I see what both sides are trying to say. Both sides are somewhat right.
As for same sex marriage, Jesus has said to love our neighbors. To mourn with those, etc etc etc.
I have friends who have chosen the LGBT path. I have a best friend, now married to his partner. Do I hate them? No! Do I support them? If they are not causing harm, they are happy, they are keeping the commandments. They love each other, care for each other. I wish them the best.
I wish everyone the best in their relationships and that they are happy. If LGBT people want to have children, they have children.
Does the church respect the LGBT community? We are to love. Respect. Etc etc etc.
As for marriage In the church? God was very clear on the matter. Has the church changed in the past? Yes. On certain things. Things have come into light. Certain things in the bible are left out. The bible isn’t full of all writings. Translations are not all true.
Can a married gay couple have children? Yes, thru adoption. Do man and woman adopt? Yes, they also for many reasons. Most, they can’t have children of their own.
How, in the church, we believe in families forever. Eternal families. The highest of all, to live in the highest degree of glory. To become, what we are to achieve, to become, Gods. King and queens, priests and priestess.
We are to have children in the next life. Not by adoption, but thru male and female.
We become whole. All our parts work.
As for a gay or lesbien couple, their is still no way the can have babies of their own. It is impossible any way you look at it.
That is why same sex marriage can not be in the church or in heaven. It is not what God wants or intended for us.
We will, when we die, we will know what we used to know. The veil will be open. There, we will know our mistakes.
That is basically all I wanted to say.
In this life, love one another. But same sex marriage is not of God. I am sorry, but that is it.
So Bob, tell me exactly when you chose the path of heterosexuality? Your marriage, your relationships, your family is absolutely no more “worthy” or “valid” than Sean and Taylors. Your tired procreation meme is really really old, tired, and false. They aren’t looking for a temple marriage and more than they are looking for ANY validation from your church. It’s just not all about you.
Well put. At the very beginning, God created Adam and He created Eve from Adam, for Adam, and Adam for Eve, and He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. Why did he do this? I think an exploration of His purposes are in order. The family is the basic unit of society in mortality and in eternity. But for a male and female mixing their seed, no child is born. And is a child able to care for itself or support itself like most animals do shortly after they are born? No. So a mom and dad play an important role in making a child viable in this cold cruel world we live in. They provide food, shelter and hopefully a loving example of heaven on earth, not to mention preparing them to support themselves and to prepare to multiply and replenish the earth. There is no other way. Any other plan just does not work. Please provide an explanation of how marrying the one you love regardless of sex fulfills the basic requirements of the human race. While you are free to choose in this life, that does not make your choices correct. (Do not tell me that you didn’t make a choice to be gay, you did.) Alcoholics can choose to stop, but it takes support most times to get the strength to overcome this addiction. AA has helped millions gain the spiritual strength to stop their addiction. As Joshua stated, “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Every day was have to choose who we will be and whether we will obey the commandments. There are purposes for the commandments. With all thy getting, get understanding.
Dallas, to quote you:
“Do not tell me that you didn’t make a choice to be gay, you did.”
That’s a very naive thing to say. Did you CHOOSE to be Heterosexual? Or is that how you were created. Why would someone CHOOSE to be gay, and face the discrimination, the torment, the pain to be told that you are a degenerate? Its ludicrous to think someone would “choose” to feel that way. I love my gay friends (and all of my friends), and see the pains that they have suffered because of who they are, watch their pain, see them bullied etc, and trying to live in a society riddled with people who share your pathetic, ill-educated, cruel mindset. Seriously – who would choose that? Are you aware of the number of teen suicides because of this? Absurd comments like yours promote these feelings of inadequacy in some people who deal with same sex attraction.
Let’s change the word “gay” to “stupid”, and your comment is accurate. If you are going to make statements like this, please back them up – the church has already (albeit changed it’s stance on the matter in the last few years, depending which Apostle you choose to listen – they constantly express different feelings and views) confirmed that it agrees that some people are born gay – their choice is whether or not to act on their feelings.
Comments like yours cut deep to the people who feel. Because you don’t understand something doesn’t make you right and them wrong.
Rant complete.
I’m not LDS. However, I think the LDS church isn’t in the wrong. Same sex marriage is against the LDS’ fundamental beliefs. It just seams to me that if a churches core values and fundamentals don’t align with your own, it’s time to find a religion you can 100% get on board with. You can’t pick and choose what you’re going to apply to your life and conform to, in a very strict religion. It’s black or white. Judging the LDS for their beliefs and practices, is just like judging a gay person. Hypocritical in my opinion.
Oh brother. That response letter was so drippy and full of buzzwords I could hardly read through it. If they’re going to live exactly contrary to the teachings of the Church, why do they want to be a part of it in the first place? I am so tired of people thinking (INSISTING) they can have their cake and eat it too.
Taylor’s bishop is just doing the best he can under his present mind set. When I was bishop I was told that if there were people living in sin under my jurisdiction that it was my responsibility to “keep the name of the church clean” by going to these people and calling them to repentance and or initiating disciplinary action against them. I worried over a couple in my ward that were living together out of wedlock. But they were inactive and I just didn’t feel good about intruding on their private affairs in that way. We tried to fellowship them but they were uninterested in becoming active. At the time I felt guilty for not fully doing my job as bishop. I have remained friends with them over the years and am so glad now that I didn’t try to call them to repentance. They eventually got married. I found out years later that the reason they had gone inactive was because the woman had been offended by her former bishop who had called her in and accused her falsely of infidelity after her recent divorce.
I only excommunicated one person while I was bishop. At the time I felt that I had confirmation from the spirit that it was what the Lord wanted but I realized years later after seeing how negativly it effected her life that it was the wrong thing to do. I have deeply regretted doing it many times over. We tell ourselves that these are courts of love and that it is the best way to redeem their soul but in reality it only does them harm. My father who excommunicated nearly a dozen people during his term as bishop told me that after 30 years of hindsight and seeing how it had effected their lives that he no longer believed in excommunication and regretted having done it to anyone. The apostle LeGrand Richards claimed that he had never excommunicated anyone and didn’t believe in doing it.
Thank you, James. Your experience as a bishop is invaluable. I’ve never understood excommunication at all, but your explanation of keeping the name of the church clean makes modern political sense in what has become a starkly and somewhat cynically legalistic organization. I assume that admonition was passed along to you without any sense of irony, given the baggage of church history?
I’m not aware of Jesus excommunicating anyone–quite the opposite, actually. And that really is the crux of the issue, here. NO ONE will argue the church doesn’t have the right to be selective in membership. However, if you’re going to say Christ is really at the head of the church, is kicking people out for certain behaviors representative of his life and ministry?
Thanks, I believe that in only a few cases, there is a need for excommunication. If the person wants to start from zero again and forget her or his past is a good principle. Excommunicated a person who is not attending to church is ridicules it doesn’t help to anyone except that the person probably will never back to church again.
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Exactly! If Taylor were working towards repentance or was actively trying to promote dissent within the ranks of the church, then excommunication would make more sense, for the church to dissociate itself from lines of thinking or behavior which go contrary to their dogma. But in this case it’s wholly unwarranted and super passive aggressive considering Taylor’s been inactive for 4 years. The agenda by pursuing this action is not based in love for Taylor, but to use him as an “example” to dissuade other “would-be homosexuals” from getting any ideas.
I agree with you… no one need to be the example for this… what about the members who committed adultery… are they going after them? I am very strict in some principles of the gospel but I don’t like this type of “cleaning” the Church
I’m a 57 years old mother of a wonderful gay son, and I was LDS long time ago. I can’t understand a God that decided push away who supposed love and accept how each one are. Congratulations for the coragem of the decision to be happy and love who you want.
Here’s the thing. In our church (or any church for that matter) there are rules and guidelines. Just because the world changes doesn’t mean the churches stnandards change. We aren’t being judgemental we are just being true to our laws and values. So don’t judge us because we aren’t judging you
I can understand why the bishop of this ward would try to reach out with the high publicity of this story.
Many replies on this article explain that nothing has been done to hurt or cause pain in any way to anyone. This is the main argument of the reply to the bishop and justification on the actions involved.
The problem when it comes to the church is when we (as a member) try to educate others contrary to the doctrine of the church. In this case the church has every right to call someone for discipline.
If the church in which they do not obviously agree with, is willing to discuss the situation and they reply in a manner in which has been shown… why not just request your records be deleted?
The fact of the mater is anyone who breaks a commandment, no matter the kind (word of wisdom, chastity, and any other major commandment) and is not willing to humble themselves and insisted on trying to push the matter and educate others on doctrine contrary to the doctrine of the church repentance should be called to church discipline.
That’s funny, while my husband and I were still married, he was known for his “flirting is part of the job” reputation. A member of the bishopric even caught him with his tongue down another woman’s throat….. The disciplinary action was a calling.
Explain how some get away with it, while others get disciplined???
It’s going to be hilarious when, in 50 years, this church is pushing 1 million or so active members, still crowing about how it’s the only path to eternal salvation. The whole thing is becoming more and more absurd with each passing year.
What mass print did to the Catholics, the internet is doing to the Mormons.
All those “anti-Mormon lies” the Tanners told? True. Just ask fairlds.com or lds.org.
Unchanging doctrine? Really?
Translation? Nope, not by any definition of the word that’s been used throughout its know etymology.
Ancient civilizations? Good luck finding any evidence any of it ever existed.
But, doubt your doubts folks. Belief is a choice. If you didn’t know all this stuff already, it’s your fault.
Seriously.
Yeah! what is this Catholics you speak of…?!?
For those of you who say the church and prophet need to except this… I’m sorry but they cannot. They will always except and love the individuals but they can never except this action that they have done because it is a sin. Marriage is of God and can only be between a man and a women. Same gender attraction is a choice, people are not born that way. Therfore the actions that the church took were just. The two individuals broke a rule so the consequence followed.
Thank you for sharing this, John and thank you Taylor for sharing your story. I send you all Love and appreciation. I stand with you and for you. Thank you for being willing to use your voices, no matter what!
If a married man has anal sex with his wife is this classed as ‘conduct unbecoming a member of the church’? If a man married more than one wife after the ‘official declaration ‘ was published was this ‘conduct unbecoming a member’? Plural marriages were being performed up to at least 1904 and the top brass either sanctioned it or turned a blind eye. There is a history of double standards and now they want to portray an image of purity and high moral judgement. The church treatment of blacks, the denial that it was based on doctrine and the back-pedalling when social pressure became too much shows there true colours. All the best to you both, you will be better off without the Mormon hypocrisy.
Bishop Roberts is a good man.
You as well as your marriage were CREATED by God! Human judgment has no place here. They may excommunicate you from their institution, you will ALWAYS have a seat at God’s table. What one sows, so shall they reap.
I don’t understand the need to excommunicate to someone that is not attending and renewing their covenants every Sunday with the Lord. As I understand the basic purpose of the excommunication is to give the person the opportunity to start from zero and put everything in order. There is a lot of members of the Church who committed adultery and they don’t attend to our meetings and they are not been excommunicated. Why the Church need to excommunicate the gays? I am very faithful person but I don’t see there is a need for to go after the gays community.
Congratulations on your union. I hope this learning experience will guide you to where you want to go.
It is my experience that same sex attraction is not a sexual issue as much as it a relationship issue. If you were to follow LDS doctrine and study it for the truth it contains, you might find that the purpose of this life is to learn first hand the difference between right and wrong.
There is no amount of explaining something or intellectualizing something will produce the experience of going out and doing that something. Sure I can be moved by watching a cartoon or the world around me. I can learn from the mistakes others make or I can ignore them to my own peril.
That’s My Choice. I can only choose for me. Even the choices I make for my kids and employers and so on still reflect on me. HOWEVER, I cannot choose the consequences.
For those who have read what I’ve written and agrees with me and would like to expound on something I’ve written, I look forward to your reply.
As for those who will read this with the intent of disagreeing with me. I love you. I respect your differences as it is what makes you who you are. I will not reply to your posts as you are on a different journey than I am and anything I could say to you might not apply. And to avoid creating a win-lose scenario don’t respond to me either.
The only winners in this life are the ones who make winners out of those around them. Love the sinner not the sin. The church was right in its decision and they’d be wrong to change the policy. And church policies have changed because of the laws of man. And they have been put into place because of the will of man. And I would add that the policies that have remained are to be those that most closely resemble those that align with truth.
I am a tangent thinker and learner. And these thoughts reflect where I am. Thank you for reading my post.
“Truth seeker”
Let me say that I agree with you that we are all on a “different journey”. And that ANYTHING you say “might not apply.” The funny thing is I don’t really believe you know what that means. Your post was riddled with veiled judgments and condemnations. The phrase “love the sinner not the sin” is the most hateful, disjointed, emotionally abusive phrase ever to be concocted.
And you know what? You are correct. We are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. Your ignorance of what makes a person gay or not, causes people to suffer! Even kill themselves, because they have no hope.
I thought the Mormon church spred the gospel of hope? How is telling a man, whose brain is wired to be attracted to other men, he is a sinner for acting on his true nature? Why would God give someone a brain that compels him to be attracted to another man, but then turn around and say ” If you act on your natural self I will condem you. ” You have created a God who is emotionally abusive — and cannot believe God is so cruel.
Homosexuality is NOT a learned behavior. You are either willfully ignorant or are flat out lying if you believe it is a CHOICE. Our sexual preference is formed in the womb.
I ask you to do the research — honestly. Pray about it. I did and I came to know the truth: being gay is NOT a choice. You are born that way. That’s why our gay youth are killing themselves when they are told they may not act on their true self.
We are all on different paths in life to learn what we need to learn. I suggest you stay on yours and quit condemning those who are not.
I am a TBM and have been one for over 45 years. I have spoken the “church” position with conviction that acting on your Homosexuality is a sin for as long as I can remember. I was the one who quoted scripture and told people it was a choice. That it was different than the “blacks and the priesthood” issue, because we were talking about a behavior. Well. I was wrong. My eyes have been opened, and I can tell you that the church is wrong on this issue. Period.
For all you “bible” quoters out there who spew hate in the name of love, I’m here to tell you that your names will go down in history like the racisist of old. Your legacy will be tarnished by your intolerance. So sad.
I, for one, can see the pain, suffering, agony and suicide the church causes on those who “think” differently.
For all of you who judge our homosexual brothers and sisters as sinners, I’m here to tell you, you will one day get to feel the pain you have caused them.
Wait a minute… my God told me that it was not only not ‘sin’, but was nothing more nor less than an expression of human sexuality. Whose God am I to believe?
Such an adorable couple. I admire your courage and strength to stand up to their misconduct and discrimination. I wish you both wonderful happy lives together, as well as beautiful children. Thank you for standing up when so many don’t have the courage to do so.
Hopefully one day the church will love the same way god does…unconditionally. I wish you both the best of luck!
I am a firm believer that God gave us all the freedom to make our own way, whatever that way is. The LGBTQ community is much too expansive and vast to make any judgements, so I will not. I believe one’s upbringing and early environment forms their belief system. I have read all of these comments. An interesting read. I married my love 36 years ago. We have 6 children. That is all I know. I don’t know same-sex attraction. I am ignorant in this area. I don’t feel I have the right to judge others, because I have not walked your walk. Just work to be happy because it takes tremendous strength and determination to get there. This life will all get worked out in the after-life.
I wish people would be happy that some one else is. In the end it doesn’t hurt me that they are together, married, and happy. I never heard God saying its a sin. I only hear and see it from man. I know deep in my heart God is pissed that people are hurting others and just wants us all happy. Maybe some day everyone will start caring about other peoples happiness and not punish them for being happy.
Is it just me or do these letters and process seem a lot like a form of harassment? Just leave him alone and let him live his life.
After seven years of marriage, three children, and a lot of guilt, I reluctantly divorced my wife and left the church that I’d so faithfully served. Five years later, the blinders feel off after I decided to really study the facts that made up this religion. It was as if I stepped out of one millennium into another. Suddenly everything I used to believe was no more plausible than the mythologies of the Greeks and Roman. as tightly as they held to the belief that Zeus was the cause of lighting, Christianity holds tight to a father, son and holy ghost. I’m not mocking but reflecting on what I experienced. The day I decided to ask the LDS church to remove my name from their records (and by now they knew I was gay), they sent a swarm of priesthood leaders of every age, shape and size begging me to reconsider and stay. I hadn’t been to church in the years at this point. It’s silly. The LDS religion is no more run by Jesus Christ than Walmart is. It’s run be egos, personalities and agendas like any other organization.
I listened to the podcast. I watched the proposal, and watched the ceremony, and cried at the beauty of their relationship. The letter is hate, and it breaks my heart for them.
“Taylor was contacted by his LDS bishop and informed that he will be tried in a disciplinary council for the simple act of being legally same-sex married to Sean.”
I suspect the gay sex thing has something to do with it as well.
The Church is not judging you. You have free agency, everyone does. Just understand that the foundation of the church cannot support your lifestyle, just as you cannot support the church and leaders. The proclamation to the family states between a man and women, man and man or woman and woman. You sound like a very loving and caring person, even though I do not agree with your lifestyle (which I….or anyone needs to) I wish the best to you
I have always maintained that the church can technically kick out who they want because it’s their club. I guess I still maintain that. However, it is freaking hypocritical to persecute people for their beliefs, and to pass that stupid bill in Salt Lake that takes rights away from some people and gives them to other people. They basically are saying we can persecute you (everyone else) and infringe on your rights, but don’t infringe on us (church) because Religious Freedom! Get off it already, church.
Washington had to legalize pot usage after they allowed gay marriage.
In the Bible it states that if a man lays with another man then they should be stoned.
I like shrimp.
The only issue with your comment is the liking shrimp part. No one should like that. There’s probably something in the bible about it. Somewhere…
To the hypocrites who claim Taylor is only being ex’d because he hasn’t turned away from the act of homosexuality, rather embraced it and asks others to celebrate his sin…that the Church is harmless and simply following scripture and is unchanging…
Please explain how my brother who married a divorced woman and has continued in this “sinful” relationship for twenty years is not hauled before a court of love. How is it that this ongoing adulterous relationship is celebrated and supported by the LDS while Taylor’s is worthy of discipline? How has my brother been granted a recommend in preparation for a temple sealing with his partner in sin? Christ himself condemned their relationship as adultry in no uncertain terms (Luke 16:18). Where are the Bible literalist and the sanctimonious, smug, blow-hards to condemn this embracing of sin?
As it turns out, there won’t be a temple sealing after all. My clever sister-in-law figured out it’s all a fraud and won’t be going back.
I fully support Taylor’s excommunication if the result is that he sees the church for what it truly is. Painful as it is for now, he’ll be so much better off without the oppressive, judgemental, hypocrical mindf@#k that is the LDS church. These people speak for God Taylor, ony in their own minds. They have no power over you. Happiness and peace to you and Sean!
Mikey,
Great point! How can the Church say anything about SSM while it’s supporting far worse things that are condemned in it’s scriptures? The Church is clearly not even following it’s own scriptures or teachings and just picking and choosing what sins to overlook and which ones to condemn.
By supporting divorce and remarriage, polygamy (past, present or future), abuse & disrespect of women, and many other destructive things, it then has no room to talk or condemn others who doesn’t follow the scriptures either.
See here’s the thing, the church is an organization with rules and if you don’t want to follow the rules you will be asked to leave. It’s not that hard of a concept. I have no issues with same sex marriage and I am an active member. I say let people find love where they may and let God sort it out in the end. Looking at this through the eyes of a organization, not engaging in same sex activity is a rule and it’s clearly stated that it will end in excommunication, it’s not a secret and it’s not discriminating against homossexual it’s just the rules. Any organization has that right to make their rules. There are plenty organizations I can’t be part of simply because I am a women. I can never be a mason because of how I was born and I’m not up in arms about. You want to be part of something with rules then follow them if not then great that’s your choice and best of luck. I personally know of a few people who were ex’d for adultery and pre marital sex both of which were straight. We aren’t just picking on homosexuals, we are picking on rule breakers period. The media doesn’t always give the full story. So this guy is being diciplined. So what. He married a man which the church doesn’t condone. What did you expect would happen? I wish them the happiest life, and that they can have a family if they want and all the good they deserve. I don’t have a problem with same sex marriage but I also don’t have a problem when same sex couples get excommunicated.
Georgia, So here is the (actual) thing, if the church were just an organization with rules, there would be no problem. However, they claim to the world and its own membership to speak for God; to be God’s Kingdom on earth led by JC himself. They require signs and tokens through the veil, which requires a temple attendance, which requires a temple recommend, which requires a lifetime of a full tithe and obedience to these rules. Its gay members are threatened with banishment to outer darkness in the next life and eternal separation from loved ones in exchange for lopping off their innate sexuality – a life of celibacy, without the hope of loving or being love that is just part of being a healthy human being. You don’t see the hypocrisy in the fact that a loving same sex relationship is sin while the “sin” of divorce (Luke 16:18)? If all it is doing is picking on rule breakers – why is one group a rule breaker and the other is not? Hypocrisy, no?
It isn’t some meek, benign organization when it is torturing gay kids and their families in its membership with unhealthy, unnatural lifelong expectations. Try asking the same of your straight members and see how fast the pews clear. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the church comes out into the world to impose its rules on the rest of us. It has always seemed ridiculous to me for religions to condemn gays for a promiscuous lifestyle in the shadows while they work to deny them dignity, self-respect, stability, security, inclusion that comes with marriage. “Doesn’t anyone notice this! I feel like I’m taking crazy pills” [Zoolander reference]
Please – JUST be an organization with rules (like a Book Club or the YMCA) and drop the facade that you hold exclusive keys to exaltation that creates such intense pressure and pain on gay members and their families. Spare me the condescending and patronizing “here is the thing”, just an organization with rules BS. And to other commenters, spare me the sweet sounding, “we love the gays” when your support of an organization’s policies that has created and continues to create this environment driving gay kids to self-loathing and suicide makes you mean and cruel.
Mormons as a whole don’t hate gays. Some, sure. Some of pretty much every different type of person does. The world is in a challenging place right now. The thing with Mormons is that we believe that God our father has specifically stated that marriage is to be between man and woman. With this also is that sex and other intamacies should happen all within marriage. That’s it. So when it’s broken, disipline is going to happen. I, along with many other Mormons, accept and acknowledge love isn’t a choice. We do believe however what God has revealed to us as marriage. It’s important that we distinguish that from hatred of gays because I can speak for a good many of us saying we don’t hate gays, and neither does God.
How hypocrite is to say that the LDS don’t hate gays when these men and women are either condemned to be single the rest of their lives or being kicked out of their church if they dare want to seal their love? How much of a true love is this ? How fair is this ?
How cruel is to force human being to ignore their true nature, something they have no control over, condemning them to live without the right to love and be loved ? And of course having absolutely no right to ever dream to love and care for children.
I feel so sad for these very narrow minded people, still thinking as if they were living in the 12th century, hoping for a cure, seeing same sex love as a sexual perversion.
How many so called Christians would leave their church if the gay people would be recognized as human beings and allowed to have the same love privileges as heterosexuals ?
As a child I remember suffering from the LDS racist practice, treating black people as inferior human being not worthy to have the same privileges than white people. It was not racism, not at all, it was the will of God… How many back people are they in the top executives of the Mormon cult today ?
Having sex with 54 wives is the word of God, but being in love with a same sex person is an abomination in the eye of an imaginary God, the same one pretending loving all his children…, at least the straight ones…
The church has not changed a bit, racism is still well alive and even more against gay people than ever. Yes because these people dare to claim to be no different, no better or worse, they dare to say that they deserve to love and be loved, they dare to want to be treated as equal..
Who knows for sure that Jesus wasn’t gay ? Would that make him a bad person, an awe-full sinner with no love for others, not worthy to be a son of God ?
I am so happy to have resigned from this Mormon cult and to be a free thinker today.
For all we know, Jesus and his apostles could have been gay. Jesus chose his first four disciples from the naked fishermen of Galilee.
Neither Jesus nor his disciples showed any interest in women.
Well, we don’t know.
When the church came out with the family Proclamation, a couple of elders checked their ward’s records. Half of the families in the ward were single parent families. So much for the Church’s proclamation.
If God is against the gay lifestyle, why did he create gays? Oh well.
Word for the day: The church should stop abusing gays.
It’s not Gay’s or Lesbians that I feel for. It’s people and religion with such hard beliefs.
What ended up happening?
The church has a clear stance on the issue, so did Taylor and Sean.
The church gotta do what they gotta do. Let’s respect that the way we want Taylor and Sean be respected.
Whether we disagree with the church or with the couple, let’s keep unkind thoughts and comments to ourselves.
Respect them both people.