Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 573

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:32] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Shaun Dehlin. Today, the date is August. Help me out. Second September 2nd, September 2nd. Long day. It's late. We've been trying to learn how to set up video and audio equipment, but I am here with Tanner Gilliland. The decade. Right. And Samantha Snyder.

Samantha Snyder [00:01:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] And we're super excited to do a special episode of Mormon Stories about Millennial Mormons. And so to begin, Samantha is from England, so she has a lovely British accent. Can you do an American accent?

Samantha Snyder [00:01:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Do it.

Samantha Snyder [00:01:21] It's not the time, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] It's not the time.

Samantha Snyder [00:01:22] Maybe at the end.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] We'll do it later. At the end. Do you promise?

Samantha Snyder [00:01:25] Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Okay. So Samantha used to be a co owner of a blog called Millennial Mormons. Yes, Millennial Mormons. And she graduated from that blog and she went on to blog for a blog called Whatsoever Is Good. Whatsoever is good Dot com. So she also used to blog a little bit for LDS living. Really cool story. So we're going to be getting into Samantha's story. She joined the church in England way back some time ago, and she's now living in Cache Valley. So that's a nice bonus for those of us who live here. So we're going to be covering both Samantha's story and Tanner's story. Tanner is well known for a poem that he recently shared on YouTube through the handle Zelf on the Shelf called Mormonism and Me. It's a poem that's already got like 60 or 70,000 views, right.

Tanner Gilliland [00:02:25] I don't think quite that many.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] It's pretty. It's pretty close. Is it 40, 45 by the time?

Samantha Snyder [00:02:29] This is a couple days.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Super sweet poem. We're going to have him perform that poem again. And we're going to capture Betty Better Audio. And we're going to use the Elmo painting above us as backdrop, which Tanner painted. Which Tanner painted. But with just to summarize, this episode is going to be all about sort of Millennial Mormons. And in both Cases for Samantha and Tanner. They've had a really bumpy ride in terms of their relationship with the church. So we're going to be talking about their relationships with the church and what it's like to be a millennial Mormon. So I'm going to go sit in the director's chair so I'm not annoying. And I'm going to let the interview begin. So I'll be back in just one second. So we're back with Samantha and Tanner. We're excited to be interviewing you guys about what it's like to be a Mormon and a millennial, whatever that means. And I think it'd be cool to begin with Tanner because Tanner's got probably more of the standard Mormon story. Is that true?

Tanner's Mormon Upbringing and Youth

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:31] Probably true.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] So we're gonna jump between Tanner and Samantha and have your stories kind of go in parallel. So, Tanner, tell us a bit about your upbringing in the church.

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:43] Okay. Come from a large family. I am one of eight children, and my dad was my bishop growing up.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Where were you raised?

Tanner Gilliland [00:03:52] Flagstaff, Arizona. Born in Mesa. Lived in Flagstaff, in Staketown. Like I said, my dad was my bishop. He's in the Stake presidency now, so super ultra Mormon. I drove a 16 or 12 seater van in high school.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Wow.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:08] Yeah, very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] So Flagstaff, and your dad was bishop and lots of siblings. Where are you in the pecking order?

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:16] I'm the second.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] Second of.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:19] Of eight.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] That's a lot of kids.

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:21] It's a ton of kids even today. Yeah, it's a great time.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Okay. All right. And pioneer ancestry?

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:26] Yeah, I think so. I'm not, like, too into genealogy, so maybe. But I. But we do have pioneer ancestors.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Okay. All right. So raised in the church. Talk a bit about, like, what the church meant to you in high school,

Tanner Gilliland [00:04:39] which I. I don't mean to, like, I don't know, brag, but I feel like nobody loved the church as much, and it was everything. So my favorite thing was I'd get together with my young man advisor, who's still my best friend to this day, and we'd get together and we'd stay up all night talking about the gospel. It was just everything. It was all missionary opportunity. Had a Book of Mormon in my backpack at all times to give away to people. No. Yeah. We had challenges in seminary to memorize scriptures. We had songs that we'd sing, and I'd walk down the hallways singing the songs and. And Mormons were a minority. It's not like Utah where everyone's a Mormon. It was like we were the Few. And so I don't know, I had pass along cards with me.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] Just what songs would you sing in the hall?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:25] We had one called Ye are the Light. The light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. You know, Matthew.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] And you would walk through your high school hall singing that song. What?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:36] That's a little creepy. I know, but it was like really just excited to be a Mormon. Just loved it.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] How many, what percentage of your high school was LDS?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:45] I don't know. There was probably 15 of us altogether in Arizona. Yeah, it's northern Arizona, so it's a lot more liberal, a lot less Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] So what are some of the Mormon y things your family would do growing up?

Tanner Gilliland [00:05:59] I don't know. We had scripture study every day, family prayer every morning and night.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Every morning and night.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:04] Every morning and night. Except in the summer we got a little axe. But typically, yeah. And this I learned how to read with the Book of Mormon. We'd play Book of Mormon trivia. As I was like a little tiny kid, my dad would say, what was the name of the water where Ammon watered the King Lamoni sheep? And as a little like three year old, I could say Sebus. He'd throw me a chocolate chip.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] So very chocolate chip. Yeah, that's like Pavlov in Kadisha.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:34] It was great though. We loved it.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Okay, so scripture study, family home evening, family prayer, family home evening every week.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:42] Family home evening every week.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Did you have some little, like some little chart thing on the fridge where you, you say whose turn it was to do the prayer?

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:51] I don't think we were ever quite that organized.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:53] All right. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] And so did you seek for a testimony as a young lad?

Tanner Gilliland [00:07:01] Oh, yeah. Well, actually, no, I wouldn't say that I sought for it, but I felt like I got one. I remember being 12 years old and I was always just kind of rowdy and really loud. And to this day I'm a chatterbox. It's just how I am. But I was definitely really a rambunctious kid. But when I got the priesthood at age 12, I felt like I need to get serious because this is the priesthood. This is the real deal. I need to grow up now. So I tried to be really solemn, more solemn, I guess. But I remember sitting around that time, 12 years old, sitting in the chapel and, you know, their choir was singing Silent Night. And I remember just feeling like Jesus is real and he loves me. And that was like a really,

John Dehlin [00:07:48] at

Tanner Gilliland [00:07:48] that time, a very life changing thing. And I felt like, wow, there's something real going on. So I have these experiences every once in a while as a youth, but I never felt like they were because I asked for them. So when I asked for them, they didn't come. But when I was just, you know, doing something, praying or listening to music, and all of a sudden you would feel what? Overwhelming Love, usually a peace, a feeling that, like, I'm known, I matter to something out there. And, you know, that happened at different times in my youth.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Did you strive to kind of stay morally clean and keep the commandments and

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:23] that sort of thing? Yeah, I didn't. Didn't swear, didn't drink, didn't smoke, didn't. I don't know if there's anything that you like, shouldn't do as a Mormon. I didn't do it. Didn't watch TV on Sunday. Didn't. I don't even think we watched. I didn't have TV growing up. I didn't even watch PG13 movies. I just watched PG movies and G movies up through. Up through college.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] What?

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:44] Yeah. Yeah. Kind of bothered some of my friends, but they got us.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] So you were squeaky clean?

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:51] Yeah, I still part my hair.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] You still look squeaky clean.

Samantha Growing Up in England

Tanner Gilliland [00:08:57] All right.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] All right, so let's pause for a second. Let's bring you in, Samantha. Now, your upbringing was a little bit different.

Samantha Snyder [00:09:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] All right, so tell us where you're from and tell us a bit about your early years in England.

Samantha Snyder [00:09:13] Well, I grew up in Essex, which is a suburb of London, so pretty typical suburb. You know, it was like semi big and. Yeah. GRE up with.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Where's that? Near London? Relative to London?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:31] Yes, like 30 minutes outside of London.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Which direction?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:36] Don't know. South, East.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Okay. Southeast, maybe. All right.

Tanner Gilliland [00:09:41] They don't really teach geography, and that

Samantha Snyder [00:09:44] wasn't a huge element, clearly.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] So were you raised religious at all?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:51] No, I wasn't, but I. You know, this was kind of before the days where prayer in school was weird. So sometimes in primary school we would have a vicar come in, a Christian vicar. And I always, you know, listened to the stories about Jesus and didn't have any reason to not believe them, you know. And I was also in, like, Brownies and Girl Guides, which is also loosely religious. So once a month to, like, get points for a Brownie badge, I would go to church or something like that. But my parents weren't, you know, religious.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Would they call themselves Christian or.

Samantha Snyder [00:10:27] I think they would probably call themselves Church of England in the way that maybe a lot of people in England do. But it doesn't come into their lives in really any way. Okay, does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:10:39] So they like teaching you to pray or reading the Bible in the home?

Samantha Snyder [00:10:44] Definitely not.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay. And did you have any siblings?

Samantha Snyder [00:10:49] No, I have no siblings. Well, now I have a half sister because my dad is remarried.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] But you were kind of raised an only child.

Samantha Snyder [00:10:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Okay, so up until the time you. Let's just say you met the missionaries, were you happy? Were you not happy? Was life bleak and awful? Was it joyful? Were you lost and pining for truth and wisdom?

Samantha Snyder [00:11:13] Honestly, I think I was just a typical 15 year old. I mean, I got really good grades in school, I had good friends. I mean, typical 15 year old drama went on. Like, you know, you fall out with your best friend for a couple of months or, you know, just stuff like that. But I mean, nothing was really wrong with my life. Like everything was decent and yeah, it was fine.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] So what in the world would lead you to join the church?

Samantha Snyder [00:11:41] You know, that's a great question, John, and I ask myself that a lot. Honestly, it was just a new type of environment that I hadn't had in my life. So the family that introduced me were this really tight knit family. You know, it was two kids and they were just really great people. They're just some of the best people you could ever meet. Like the best Mormons you could ever hope to meet. And so just being around them, you know, it was the kind of home that when you were in, you felt really peaceful, happy. And, and so I think I was definitely attracted to that, that sort of environment at that time.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] And this is just a kid from school?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:16] Yes, it was one of my friends in my classes.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Male?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] Were you guys like dating? No romantic interest. But you just thought his family was cool?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:26] Yeah, yeah. And he had a younger sister who I was also really close with or became close with. He was pretty close in age. So yeah, they just invited me in for dinner one time and yeah, kind of went from there.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] How did it go from there?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:39] Like missionaries are at the dinner.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:12:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] And so what happened?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:45] I think I had one missionary lesson when I was 15 and it was kind of just whatever. And I went home. And I don't remember if I told my mom, but either way my mom was just not okay with me having more. So I was like, okay, fine. And then it was a year later, one of my friends and her mum was gonna get the six missionary lessons because I think they kind of thought it was like a course rather than, you know, they are gonna try and convert you. So we all just kind of did it to, like, learn about this religion, our friend, you know, just out of interest, really, and. Well, here I am.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] What happened?

Samantha Snyder [00:13:20] Well, I.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] How did it work?

Samantha Snyder [00:13:23] How did it work? Well, I had the lessons and, you know, at first I was just. I don't think I'm a very. I think I'm. I think I'm kind of a bit of a dreamer. So I'm not. And especially at that time, I wasn't a particularly skeptical person. Like, if someone nice told me something, I would trust them. Like, I'm a pretty trusting person. So, you know, in missionary lessons, things get emotional because it's a very, like, silent and serious situation. And you're talking about these, like, big, deep things. And so I think it is, like, quite common to feel, you know, like, maybe like you're gonna cry or things like that as you're talking. And so I'd feel those things. And so I guess that's, you know, I just sort of kept going.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] And so you found yourself emotionally touched during the missionary discussions?

Samantha Snyder [00:14:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] Ok. And they propositioned you for baptism at some point?

Samantha Snyder [00:14:19] Yeah. So I actually think that the reason I got baptized, as in, like, the reason I was able to kind of get the courage to do it, was my mum didn't. Didn't let me get baptized. So 6, 16 at this time. And so she was. I think I was 16 and a half, so she was gonna make me wait TILL I was 18.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Were they, like, freaked out that the Mormons are gonna steal their daughter?

Samantha Snyder [00:14:39] Yeah, pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:14:41] And also because I was under 18, and they were like, well, you can make this decision when you're 18. But, like, you know, so for a year, so, you know, got the missionary lessons at some point, after maybe a couple of months, got what I felt was a testimony. And then for a whole year, I wasn't baptized, but I was super Mormon in every, every way I could be, except for the fact that I just hadn't been baptized. And so I think knowing that my mum wasn't letting me get baptized meant I could just say that to the missionaries. And there was never this, like, pressure time where it's like, are you gonna baptize? Aren't you? Because by the time I actually did

John Dehlin [00:15:13] it,

Samantha Snyder [00:15:15] like, I'd already been living it for an entire year, so it wasn't a big decision.

Samantha Joins the Church and Becomes Deeply Involved

John Dehlin [00:15:17] So what did you have to go through in your life to become a super Mormon?

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:23] What did that mean?

Samantha Snyder [00:15:24] Well, England tea is a big thing, so I had to give up tea.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] Was that hard?

Samantha Snyder [00:15:28] No, not really. I was young and just kind of getting into it, and the way kids do stuff like that. And then alcohol is another one. There's, like, a big drinking culture in England, even at quite an early age.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] So you'd already started drinking by that point?

Samantha Snyder [00:15:43] Yeah, and it's just so different from Tyler's upbringing.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:47] I'm laughing from her first experience and

Samantha Snyder [00:15:50] because he's met my par. You were totally fine with that. Oh, that. Yeah, I should say that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:55] Yeah, you should.

Samantha Snyder [00:15:56] Yeah. So he's laughing because the first time I ever went to church, I was hungover. And the lesson that day was on the Word of Wisdom, because my friend knew about it and had told the missionaries, like, can you teach the Word of Wisdom? And I lived the Word of Wisdom from that point on.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Okay, so no drinking. What about shagging?

Samantha Snyder [00:16:14] Wasn't doing that.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Okay. That wasn't a change. I had to throw in the Austin

Tanner Gilliland [00:16:18] Powers reference just gratuitously because we're young millennials and that's what we.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] All right, all right. So you join the. You. You become a super Mormon, and then about a year or two later.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:30] Yeah, so when I was about 17 and a half. So only a year later, as opposed to the year and a half I would have had to have waited till 18, my mum just changed her mind and said I could get baptized. So I did.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] Were your parents, were they happy with the changes, or were they thinking you were weird?

Samantha Snyder [00:16:45] I think. I think at first, obviously it is a bit weird when your child wants to join a religion. And I think there's always been points throughout me being Mormon that they were like. That was a bit weird. But in general, like, they could see that it had a positive effect on me because it did make me more, you know, considerate of things and people. And I think they saw that I was quite balanced from joining the church and in quite a, like, productive place, as opposed to maybe a lot of people in college and around that time, they're maybe a bit reckless and off the walls a bit. And I wasn't really like that, so I think they were kind of neutral about it in the end.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Okay, all right, so you. Did you go to, like, high school dances, like, ward dances? Did they have, like, youth conferences? And was the youth program pretty intense?

Samantha Snyder [00:17:36] I think I went to one or two youth dances in two years because England. So maybe maybe three. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] Not a vibrant youth program.

Samantha Snyder [00:17:45] I would go to Mutual every week. But no, it wasn't vibrant. Like, it is Here for sure. I remember the first youth dance I went to. I think it was multi state, which is essentially the whole country in England. And I was wearing a shirt that had like a little. It was, it went to the shoulder and then had like a little slit and it was like a flowy material. And the young women state president told. And I wasn't like, I don't think I even had a testimony at this point. I don't know. But she told me to change, so I had to change.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] But. So were your best friends Mormon after you got baptized or did you just stay with your old friends?

Samantha Snyder [00:18:21] You know, we were all kind of in the same group the whole time. So I, you know, I had my best friend who was in my grade who was Mormon and we were all in the same friendship group, so.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] So a lot of non Mormon friends.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:33] Yeah, so we, yeah, we had no Mormon friends.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Okay. All right. So Tanner, switch back to you. So, mission.

Tanner's Mission Experience

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:40] Yep. Served a mission.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Talk about that a little bit.

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:42] Okay. I served in Brazil, Juan Pessoa. And I really, really had this vision of the mission as like this Dan Jones. Dan Jones experience.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] What does that mean?

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:55] I imagined that I'd go out there, gift of tongues, baptize thousands just with the power of my testimony. And I was like really, really serious about it. And so before my mission, it was like all. All I could think about was, was the mission. So the year before my mission, I only listened to Motab. I didn't go on any dates because I didn't want to, you know, get distracted by girls. Just wanted to make this mission matter. I get to the MTC and I feel like I was kind of a killjoy there. I had the best companion. His name's Ken Magleby and he's just the nicest guy in the world. And so patient with me because I really was a buzzkill. Like just so stoic because we can't talk about anything that's not church related, gospel related, mission related, focus and get this power. But I think I did kind of light up eventually. I mean, it's like nine weeks in the mtc. You learned to lighten up a little bit. Bit. And I got to my first area and it was really hard because it was just so different than what I was anticipating because, you know, I thought we'll get out there and we'll teach these people and have these amazing life changing experiences. But what ended up happening is we ended up teaching a lot of like little kids and like doing magic tricks for kids and inviting them to come play soccer. And I just thought, like, I didn't prepare my whole life just to, like, trick kids to come coming to church. That's not what I want.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Were those used as incentives to get baptized?

Tanner Gilliland [00:20:19] Oh, absolutely. And it was all my mission. I had two mission presidents. One was Brazilian, one was American. And I love both of them and really respect both of them. But the culture, especially in the first half of my mission, was very numbers. So, like, the elders in the area before me baptized some 50 kids under the age of 15 in one transfer. So six weeks, they baptized 60 people under the age of 15. And I think only two of them were confirmed, I think. And, you know, one maybe was still going to church. I think one's still active, but it's just kind of that, like, baptize at all costs and then see what happens. Let the wheat and the tares separate themselves afterward. We just got to get them baptized. And, you know, it was all about whoever got the most baptisms that week got their name in the mission newsletter. And that really just kind of bugged me. And it was something that was really hard. In fact, my first zone, they had a tour term called golero, which is like a goalie. Anyone who blocks goals. So anyone who blocks a baptism is a golero, Whether it's a mom not letting their child get baptized, or a district leader who won't pass someone in an interview because they've been. They were drunk during the interview. They say, oh, you're golero. You gotta just pass them and let them get baptized. And during my first zone meeting, we were talking about, you know, tactics for baptism. And I said something about, like, what about the Holy Ghost? And someone said, the Holy Ghost is for goleros. And I was just like, what am I doing in this mission? This is ridiculous. It did get better. Not all the missionaries were that way. I had some really great companions and some really great experiences. Ended the mission as an AP with my American president, Gordon hall, and just have mountains of respect for him and his wife. Wonderful people. They really tried to change that. That culture.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] At its peak, how many people were being baptized a month?

Tanner Gilliland [00:22:26] I think maximum was during my last transfer. We baptized 217 people in a month. And that was, like, a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] That's the most. In the two years you were there?

Tanner Gilliland [00:22:36] Not in the two years, because I wasn't really paying attention much the first year. They baptized a lot more the first year I was there. I remember getting on the, like, the computers when I was in the office. And before, like, I think even before my mission present, before I arrived, they were baptizing some 600 people a month, and then only confirming about 300. And then of those 300, very few were even staying active. So that's the kind of numbers we're looking at.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] And were there. What were the highest baptizing companionships you heard of? Like, 10 of them.

Samantha Snyder [00:23:09] Month.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] 15amonth.

Tanner Gilliland [00:23:10] Oh, some would baptize like 60, 70 in a month. Yeah, when I was. When I first got out there and they were baptizing a lot of kids, and it wasn't all kids. I mean, the elders who baptize a ton, they baptize a ton of kids, but they'd also baptize a ton of other people, too. And sometimes you see where, like, you know that the missionaries who are baptizing the most aren't the most obedient. So you're like, they're telling me that I got to be obedient to get these blessings. But the guys who aren't being obedient, who are just really good at talking with people, they're the ones who are getting a lot done. And you think that doesn't quite add up, and it's a little frustrating. So you don't baptize as much because you're not just trying to throw anybody in the water. And the leaders will call you. Obviously, there's something you need to repent of. You'd be having more baptisms if you were being more righteous. And I feel like that's a lot of psychological pressure. Missionaries have a lot of psychological pressure. I mean, I remember thinking, if we leave one minute late, the Lord is going to withhold baptisms from us. And I think that's so ridiculous to think that, like, God would prevent someone from being baptized. Just because a missionary left his house one minute late. That's just like, God's not, I don't think, a terrorist. That's pretty. Pretty wild anyway. But lots of good experiences.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Did you ever raise that as a problem, Try and express concerns to the mission president? Did you ever try and tell anyone that seems wrong or speak out?

Tanner Gilliland [00:24:39] Well, the problem is, the first year, I couldn't really speak out at all because I didn't speak Portuguese that well, and first mission president didn't speak English that well. I don't know. I mostly kind of stayed under the radar. We had a really good relationship because I was obedient, and he put a lot of trust in me and gave me a few assignments that were. Were, like, very expressing of his trust and things. And so, I don't know, I felt like I'll just try to be the change that I want to see. And I started meeting other missionaries who were in the same mindset. And the assistants at that time were really good missionaries, the kind of missionary I wanted to be. And then by the time the second missionary president came, he was very much into changing that culture, and I was in leadership at that time, and so we were very vocal about that.

Samantha's Mission and BYU Idaho Years

John Dehlin [00:25:26] So this is going to be backing up. But you were born what year?

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:30] 1990.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] 1990. Samantha, when were you born?

Samantha Snyder [00:25:32] 92.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] 92. Okay, so you were on your mission in 2008.

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:38] 2009 to 2011.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Okay, all right. And Samantha joined the church 2009. Well, while Tanner's on his mission.

Samantha Snyder [00:25:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] Okay. All right. Okay. All right, so. So, Tanner, real quick. Spiritual experiences on your mission. Was it good for your testimony, bad for your testimony? Neutral?

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:58] I feel like the most significant spiritual experiences I had had. Had come before my mission. I was kind of anticipating those moments, and I think maybe in the MTC was probably where I had the most, like, emotional experiences. And there were some good ones on the mission. You know, where you find, like, the golden investigator, and, you know, you see someone change their life for good. That was really good, but nothing, like, really special. I feel like there were some things that really disillusioned me because I had this dream. This. You know, the missionaries are alma and amulet going out, and Dan Jones and Brigham Young and Heber CP the heck is Dan Jones? Dan Jones. Oh, he's the guy who. He's from Wales. Joseph Smith. Told him, you're gonna baptize a billion people. He's in the COVID of Preach My Gospel. You open it up, he's standing there with the Book of Mormon. He baptized, like, a billion people. Everyone wants to be Dan Jones.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Okay, okay. Never heard of his name.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:52] John Delaney hasn't heard of it. Oh, God.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] What is wrong with me?

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] All right. Okay, okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:57] Dan Jones baptized a billion people.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:59] So I feel like I kind of was a little disillusioned in some ways. My admission ended on a really high note. Felt like I saw some miracles and things and was working really close with my mission president, which was just awesome. But, yeah, it's kind of like sometimes. Sometimes this is a little more corporate Y than I'd like it to. And our approach is a lot more mechanical and a lot more salesy than I imagined. And sometimes we don't have, like, I need to go. I never had that thing where it was like, I need to talk to this person right now. And, you know, you go and teach them. And they were, like, praying to find the missionaries or something. You know, never had those kinds of experiences, but overall it was nice.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Okay, so the. So the, you know, hyperbaptism symptoms didn't damage your testimony?

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:46] Just hurt me a lot personally. Probably damaged me emotionally in some ways, because I just felt like, really like an outsider in a lot of ways and felt really alone for a long time. But I don't think that affected my testimony.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Okay. Okay. All right, Samantha, so you graduate from high school. What happens?

Samantha Snyder [00:28:04] I went to BYU Idaho straight after.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] How did that happen? Did you even consider the. The true byu, or did you just.

Tanner Gilliland [00:28:12] I. Yeah, so I. BYU Idaho Provo.

Samantha Snyder [00:28:14] BYU Idaho. Provo was my first thing I thought about. And, you know, I prayed about it and, you know, talked to my mum about it a little bit, and she was just not on board with that idea. I mean, she has one child who's just joined this religion she's not a part of, and now this child wants to go off to America. I mean, you can see her point. So I felt like that was like an answer that to my prayers, that, no, I shouldn't be going there. And then. And then when someone I didn't know BYU existed, and then when I found out I existed, I felt. And by this point, it was, you know, maybe a month or two later, and I was already thinking, I do not want to go to a university in England because it's a big drinking culture. And I just. I didn't feel excited about that. And so, yeah, when someone mentioned BYU Idaho, I thought, well, this is a different school. So I could pray about this and it could be a different answer. And so I did, and the answer was yes. So I went.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Okay, so again, BYU Provo.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:16] I did apply to BYU Provo the next year and got in, but then by that point was so in love with BYU Idaho, I just stayed there.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Why would you have thought of Idaho before Provo?

Samantha Snyder [00:29:25] No, I didn't. I thought about Provo and then got the answer that it was a no.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Okay. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So different school. You got the yes.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] So there's something special about Idaho.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:35] Something special.

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:36] We wouldn't be here without Idaho.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:37] We wouldn't be here.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:39] Everything would be different.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] All right. So what was Idaho like for you?

Samantha Snyder [00:29:43] You know, I loved BYU Idaho because I was just so gung ho about the church that all the things that most sane people might find a Bit annoying. Didn't really phase me. You know, I wanted to affect flip flops, but I wasn't gonna grumble too much because I was getting, you know, tithing, subsidized tuition and this great education from. In a spiritual environment. So.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] So all the Mormons and all the Mormonism loved it. You dug it. So what were your favorite parts about the Mormony aspects of BYU Idaho, when you first got there?

Samantha Snyder [00:30:18] When I first got there, I think, when I think I went to BYU to expect, you know, these really perfect people because I thought, well, I've just been in the church for a year and so they've had their whole lives, so they must be just amazing. I mean, they must be doing two day fasts and who even knows? And so I got there and I realized that that's not how it is, you know.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] Was that disappointing, disillusioning?

Samantha Snyder [00:30:43] Maybe a bit. But I think I just, you know, adopted the role of like, I think I was a bit self righteous. And so I was like, well, okay, it's time to strengthen some people. And so, you know, there's me like trying to strengthen people that members their whole lives.

John Dehlin [00:30:56] Okay, and so what were the favorite parts of being there for you? Like ward prayer, like.

Samantha Snyder [00:31:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] Family home evening. What were the things you really got into?

Samantha Snyder [00:31:09] I loved, I loved religion classes I thought were a lot of fun and, and it was nice to kind of have that in the middle of the school day because you felt like you got this uplifting boost if you had a religion class that day. I liked the general. I felt like compared to the English culture that I'd kind of come from, which was very. Just sort of drinking and stuff. That isn't really that fun to me. I think people had a lot more fun because, you know, this isn't a college where people are drinking, they're being like creative in ways to have fun. And so, so I felt like I was really into the whole good, clean, fun thing. Okay, that worked for me. I liked that.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Okay. And do you feel like your testimony got stronger, weaker? What? Like those first couple years, I think

Samantha Snyder [00:31:56] I went to by IDO with a rock solid testimony and it stayed the same. I think, I think I maybe became, I think I maybe lost that like perfect faith that I had when I first joined. Like, I. Yeah, because I feel like that wasn't really sustainable and so I kind of eased up a bit. But I think my testimony was the same the whole time. That was never something I thought about.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] What was dating American boys.

Samantha Snyder [00:32:23] Like, I've only Really dated American boys, so I can't compare that much, but I. It was great. I liked it.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Did you go out a lot? A little bit. How often were you dating?

Samantha Snyder [00:32:34] Quite a lot.

Tanner Gilliland [00:32:35] I had blonde girl, British, of course. She went out a lot.

Samantha Snyder [00:32:39] Yeah, I went around. I think I had about six serious boyfriends at BYU Idaho. So in four, three and a half years. So serious meaning at least a couple of months.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:32:52] Well, maybe a few. Yeah. So I dated a lot and I liked it.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:32:56] It was fun.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] Who was president at BYU Idaho when you were there?

Samantha Snyder [00:32:59] Kim B. Clark.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Was he the whole time?

Samantha Snyder [00:33:02] Time, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] What was he like?

Samantha Snyder [00:33:04] I thought he was a stud. I thought he was great.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] A stud.

Samantha Snyder [00:33:09] Not, you know, not in that way. I should have said boss. Yeah, I liked him. I thought it was cool. He gave good devotionals. He's not the friendliest person ever. I mean, I've seen him outside of school since then, and he. He's a bit bristly, but, yeah, I was. I always liked being there with him as president.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] Okay. All right, Tanner, so you get done with. With Brazil and what happens?

Tanner Returns Home and Attends BYU Idaho

Tanner Gilliland [00:33:33] So I got home from Brazil and was planning on going to BYU Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Why?

Tanner Gilliland [00:33:39] I had a friend who went there and, you know, as we just talked about it, and I went and visited him right before I went on the mission, and I just had a good vibe. I like the town. Didn't really see the campus, but I thought, I like this place. And then while I was on my mission, I was. I just felt like, yeah, BYU Idaho is where I need to go. I didn't know what I was going to study, though. So I came home, not having any idea, and I was talking to my stake president, and he said, you should study communication. And then it was like, bing, yeah, that's what I need to do. I don't know what that's about, but that sounds right for me. Kind of the Joseph Smith pure intelligence thing, it just clicked and I was like, yeah, that's where I need to go, what I need to do. So I went to BYU hi. To and studied communication.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Okay, so did BYU Idaho meet your expectations? Spiritually, was it. What do you like about it most? In terms of its Mormon stuff?

Tanner Gilliland [00:34:33] In terms of its Mormon stuff. I thought the people there were just super nice. Everyone is just the nicest people in the world. The teachers are all just really great human beings, and they. I feel like they really care about the school students and, you know, it's small enough classes where you can actually get to know the teachers. I'm still good friends with a lot of my teachers there. And so it's really personal. And I like how since there aren't as many people, it's not as competitive. And so you have opportunities to do a lot of things you might not be able to at other schools. The devotionals were really cool. I remember sitting in my first devotional and looking because they have a really spacious like conference center there. It looks almost like the conference center that they have in felt like big. And I remember just sitting there and just being like, this is the coolest thing ever. Just seeing everyone in their white shirts and ties and the girls in their dresses. And so that was always like a good pick me up every Tuesday afternoon was there at devotional. Really enjoyed that.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] Now byu, Idaho has a reputation of being like the Saudi Arabia of Mormonism. Talk about that. Is that just untrue? Is that unfair? Is that way true?

Tanner Gilliland [00:35:42] Probably true.

Samantha Snyder [00:35:42] We thrived on that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:35:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Like what?

Tanner Gilliland [00:35:45] So like for instance, they have a, they have a curfew that you have to be in your house at midnight. They used to have like people who would come around and check to make sure you're there. They don't do that anymore. I think that's good. But people were like, they check to

John Dehlin [00:35:57] see if everyone was home.

Tanner Gilliland [00:35:58] No, like your roommates, it was like a self check system. So your roommates would patrol you. They had the honor code. And so if you weren't getting in by midnight every night, you're roommates would report you to the, to the honor code office.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Wow.

Tanner Gilliland [00:36:09] And so like one time there was a girl who, in my complex who came in after midnight. And she came in and her roommates had thrown her bedding on the, on the ground on the doorstep and locked her out and said, be on time tomorrow night.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Holy.

Tanner Gilliland [00:36:21] And I, and like usually I was like, yeah guys, we gotta keep the rules. But at that I was like, okay, this is a, like a new level of insane. This isn't the commandment. Like these are rules, but they're not commandments. And that was kind of the vibe you got, was like, well, she's wearing shorts on campus. She's a bad person. Is she a bad person? That's not a commandment. Well, the rule did come from Kimby Clark and He is a 70 and he reports to the apostles who are, you know, inspired of God. So anything, it's like this trickle down effect. Anything that they do is commandment. There's no separation between school and like church. So normally we want like church and state to be separated. There's no separation of school and church there I felt.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] Other examples of creative.

Samantha Snyder [00:37:02] I remember my. This is kind of a similar one. I just remember doing things my first semester, like leaving notes on my roommate's bed if she was 10 minutes late from curfew. So. Oh. Another one is because you're not allowed to have. You're not allowed to be in your apartment alone with the opposite sex or you're not allowed the opposite sex in your bedroom at all. But because of the whole can't be in the apartment alone with the opposite sex rule, you would often see people at like 10 o' clock at night in freezing cold Rex sitting outside their door with blankets with their date because they don't want to be inside because I'll be breaking the rules.

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:36] It really puts you in this catch 22 because you're like, if you're in a relationship, you can't spend all your time outside because a, people are gonna get mad at you for PDA if you want to like cuddle or kiss or whatever. And it's freezing cold, so you could potentially die. But you also can't be alone in your apartment together. So where do you end up?

Samantha Snyder [00:37:54] In cars.

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:54] You end up in cars, which, you know, especially Spencer W. Kimball is probably rolling in his grave about that. So I don't know. Yeah, Kind of this tricky situation there.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:03] And the honor code is really emphasized as, you know, your integrity is dependent on you keeping the honor code. And part of the honor code is encouraging other students to live the honor code. And part of encouraging other students to live the honor code is, you know, rebuking them sometimes and if they don't change but afterwards showing, potentially telling on them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:25] We were there during the skinny jeans fiasco.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] What happened?

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:28] So a girl went into the testing center and she was wearing skinny jeans. And the. The testing center employee said, sorry, you can't take it. Your jeans are not within the honor code. And that made like national news.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:43] And then they put up another sign saying, if you have a problem with this, then you should go to your heavenly father in prayer.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:47] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:48] I was in England when that story broke on my off track. And I remember thinking, if this is true, I'm not going back. Like, I'm not going to go to a university where I can't wear skinny jeans. But you went back because skinny jeans weren't banned.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:58] Yeah, it was just Kim fixed it. Kim B.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Fixed it. It was a rogue.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:03] Rogue testing center employee.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:06] Trying. Trying to, you know, magnify his calling as the test. The testing center employee and got shut down.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] So skinny jeans were actually allowed.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:15] Yeah, I wore.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:16] Technically. I mean, the idea is that it's not supposed to be, you know, really form fitting, kind of the strength of youth.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:22] But I think one time when I was about to perform in a show, someone told me one of the, like, ushers who was just a student, said, you can't go on. You're wearing skinny jeans that are too tight. And I was just thinking, like, this is. I'm not gonna let this happen. And so I argued with him until he let me go on with the jeans, thankfully.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:41] While I was there, I started a. They had a school newspaper called the School. So I started a parody newspaper called the Squirrel. And we actually ran an article about students having to wear burkas. Winter burkas.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:54] It's a satire.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] So how did you distribute the squirrels? It just online.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] All right.

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:59] But sometimes people would think it was real. And that was always funnier.

Samantha Snyder [00:40:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] Now I. Because I was at Utah State, in the counseling center, I would sometimes meet students who had to leave BYUI to Idaho because, like, someone told on him. I heard crazy stories of, like, really, really harsh bishops that would even accuse people of things that maybe they didn't even do, but. But, you know, would end up getting him kicked out. Now, I don't. I may have heard really extreme stories, but, like, what were the bishops like and. And that with the honor code and people getting kicked out and stuff, is that. Was that just an extreme story? Was there a culture of tell on your roommates kind of thing, or was that not so bad?

Samantha Snyder [00:40:45] There was definitely a culture.

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:46] Definitely a culture. As far as actual bishops, I was executive secretary for most of my time at BYU Idaho. And I felt like the bishops that I worked with and the stake presidencies that I worked with were really, really loving and understanding and lenient and patient. But there were some. In fact, my first stake president that I had there was a little. A little crazy. He, like, for instance, they have stadium singing, which is where Sunday night all the students gather to sing hymns. And he forbade anyone in the state from going to it because it was like taking the place of a church meeting. So he didn't want people to be, like, too churchy, I guess. And he also banned video games, banned Tinder, and during the. The Harry Potter came out around that time. And he said he told the bishops, if anyone goes and sees the premiere, Harry Potter, the midnight premiere, you need to pull their ecclesiastical endorsement. I went to that what, you would have been kicked out of sleeping curfew because you're breaking curfew.

Samantha Snyder [00:41:49] And I never broke curfew, but I

Tanner Gilliland [00:41:50] broke with Harry Potter. So I know that there were some in leadership like that, but it definitely. I definitely don't think that that was across the board.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Okay. There was. There was a video that came out that, like, had a soldier motif that related to sort of pornography and masturbation. Did that come out while you were there?

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] Talk about that, either one of you, and then chime in the other.

Samantha Snyder [00:42:13] I, you know, defended that video. It was just a talk that.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] Talk about the video. Describe it.

Samantha Snyder [00:42:19] Okay. So President Clark had given this talk where he talked about helping your roommates to not watch pornography, basically. And so he likened it to soldiers on the battlefield and how you need to rescue each other. And so they made this video. It's, like, quite dramatic, and it has, like, the scenes of the soldiers. And so my friend was the soldier. Oh, nice. And so people who weren't Mormon saw it and thought. I thought it was very extreme. And I think they liked. I think they didn't necessarily know it's just about Pinocchio.

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:52] They spun it to be, like, all about masturbation, which I don't think was exactly the point. But, you know, pornography, masturbation.

Samantha Snyder [00:42:59] The President Clark did say it wasn't about that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:02] So. Yeah, so, yeah, there was kind of a lot of national attention about that. I think even, like, Jay Leno mentioned it. But we were all very defensive of President Clark. It's kind of like, yeah, we can make fun of our people, but don't you guys make fun of. Of us.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:20] So we defended him.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] So you circled the wagons against.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:22] We did.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Critics from the outside wrote an article

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:25] about it, got some attention. I did it for the. For the squirrel.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:30] And it was. It was like tongue in cheek. But supporting President Clark.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:35] Because he's just trying to do a good thing, you know, protecting people from spiritual evil. What's the problem there?

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Did you get a sense that there was a real problem with pornography and masturbation or. Not really.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:47] I think I've heard. Because, like, I never had a problem with that. Like, that was never. I didn't struggle with that. And. But I've heard from other people that, like, it's a lot more prevalent than I would have thought. And I think that's just kind of a human nature thing. I think across the board, it's pretty common.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] What'd you experience, Samantha?

Samantha Snyder [00:44:07] I mean. I mean, I had female roommates and so I. I knew it probably was a thing that was common, but it didn't really impact me in any way, so.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:44:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] So overall, you know, I just remember loving so much about BYU Provo. You know, we talk about all these kind of more strict, more conservative rules. But, Samantha, overall, how did you like all that?

Samantha Snyder [00:44:33] I loved it. It was.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] What do you love about it?

Samantha Snyder [00:44:38] I liked being in a Mormon school. I thought it was great.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:43] And, Tanner, I really liked it. Like I said, I think all the people were wonderful. Nice. I loved the spiritual take on everything. You know, we'll be in science class and we can talk about how God did this or that and how this fits into the plan or, you know, kind of having that spiritual perspective on things. And I feel like you probably get more of that at BYU Idaho than byu. I think BYU Provo's more academic and maybe a little less, at least from what I've heard. And I really like that. I like the religion classes. I thought it was silly that religion classes had to count toward your gpa. I didn't feel like that was right to, like, have the people's academic record should be influenced by their spirituality, but it was kind of like, yeah, you know what? It's just the cost of enjoying all that we have. And so, yeah, overall, it was a really great experience.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] You guys were loving it?

Samantha Snyder [00:45:33] Yeah.

Tanner and Samantha Meet and Marry

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Okay, so did you meet before either of you started struggling kind of with your faith? Or did you meet first and then people struggled, or did either of you start struggling before you met?

Tanner Gilliland [00:45:46] I was struggling before we met.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] Okay, so talk about how that started for you, Tanner.

Tanner Gilliland [00:45:50] Okay, so at some point, along the lines, you know, at different points in your life, you have different questions and things, and you kind of just have periods of doubt and darkness where you're like, do I really believe this? I don't know. But it wasn't like I was studying church history or anything like that. It was just kind of this vague, wondering, questioning. And I kind of had a long stretch of that for a little while. And then I had a roommate, and he asked me about blacks in the priesthood. Just kind of like, what happened there. And he was black and a convert, and so he was curious, and he knew that I liked to study. I'd studied a lot of faithful church history. I loved reading biographies of various apostles and Spencer W. Kimball in particular. I've read his biography probably six times. Just really loved him. And I was really disappointed that in the first biography that his son wrote, he didn't include the Part about blacks in the priesthood. And so I was like, I'd love to know about that. So when my roommate asked me about it, I said, well, this is a great chance for me to, like, learn more about Spencer W. Kimball and that whole process. And then I found out that his son had written another book called Lengthen youn Stride, which include. That included that part of the story. And so I dug into that and, you know, from this faithful perspective. But then as I'm like, I really wanted to have an understanding of why that policy was implemented, the genesis of it, how it was resolved. And so I started doing a little bit more digging than I had ever done into any sort of controversial issue. And that's when I came across some quotes from Brigham Young and things that I was like, huh, I don't agree with that. And that doesn't. Not that I. And not just that I don't agree with it, but that, like, is fundamentally opposed to what I. How I view my religion and the way that I think God works with mankind. And so that was the start of it all. And around that same time, I had a friend, a different convert friend, who approached me one day, and I was kind of struggling with that already. And she said, is it true that Joseph Smith married 40 women? And I said, I don't know, maybe. And then she said, did he marry a 14 year old girl? And I said, maybe I'll find out for you. And so that's when I started. And it was probably around that time when Samantha and I met.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] So what year would this have been? What month and year approximately?

Samantha Snyder [00:48:16] We met in 2013. And I had no idea Tanner had any of these struggles. He was the most Mormon person ever.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] So two years ago about.

Tanner Gilliland [00:48:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Okay. All right, so you're struggling, and then how'd you guys meet?

Samantha Snyder [00:48:32] In class.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Which class?

Samantha Snyder [00:48:35] Advertising with Brett Sampson.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Okay, so you become friends.

Samantha Snyder [00:48:41] Yeah, we're still just in the class together.

Tanner Gilliland [00:48:43] I thought she was. I. I remember I saw her and I liked her shoes. And I said, I like your shoes. And she goes, thank you. And I was like, okay, snooty Brit. Like, at least it's true. You were just. And the whole time we were together in class, she would always just be like, I'm just gonna look down at people and like, I'm trying to, like, stir things up and get conversations. And this was your El Guapo.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] You're snooty, Brett.

Samantha Snyder [00:49:03] No, I'm not. Resting bee face.

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:05] That's just how it is.

Samantha Snyder [00:49:06] And Tana's just the light of any classroom. So every project he would present, I was like, oh, that guy's amazing. So I was just kind of like a quiet admirer of Tana's creativity. And then. And then one time, we. Was it you that came up with the idea? Tanner came up with the idea to use the. This. We all had to use this word in the class without the teacher knowing. So we were going around in a circumstance doing, like, presentations from every student. And the word was indicative. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is like, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm all for. And so then Tana was like, oh, she's cool. She was really up for that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:36] And pranking the teacher.

Samantha Snyder [00:49:38] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:39] Fun.

Samantha Snyder [00:49:40] So that was the birth.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] So, okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:43] She was working as.

Samantha Snyder [00:49:45] Yeah. So I worked for the school's advertising agency, Soapbox, and I was a copywriter. And the next semester, I was gonna be the manager of the copywriting department department. So I told Tanner to apply and join my team, so. Because he was really talented.

Tanner's Faith Crisis Begins

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Okay, so talk about. And you guys will have to tell us how to shift back and forth, but how the faith crisis kind of progressed. How you infected Samantha and then how. And then how it progressed in parallel because you guys kind of had a bit of a parallel journey there. So talk about that progression.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:18] Okay. I think maybe is now is a good time to say that we are not married.

Samantha Snyder [00:50:23] We are friends.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:23] We're friends.

Samantha Snyder [00:50:24] My husband is in the other room.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:26] Yeah. Everyone thought we were dating at school because we were just always together. We did a lot of video projects and things. And everyone was like, you guys got to get married. And we just tell everyone that we were twins.

Samantha Snyder [00:50:36] Did you ever go out? No. It was like a sibling relationship. Like, I'm taller than Tana. We just. We do not have that kind of.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:42] Yeah. So we were just always together, but never interested in dating or anything.

Samantha Snyder [00:50:47] Tanner would come over and give me blessings when a guy broke up with me at midnight, things like that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:52] So, yeah, like I said, I started researching a little into race in the priesthood and polygamy. And polygamy was probably the thing that really opened the floodgates. I remember there was a day that I just didn't go to class, didn't go to devotional. And I just like, I need to figure this out what is happening here? And came across some blogs. Rock Waterman had written something on polygamy and how Joseph didn't actually practice it. And I was like, I want to figure that out. So then he linked to A book called Joseph Fought Polygamy by an RLDS couple. And so I read that book, and it was really. I don't know, it's just kind of this slow crescendo of doubt where it wasn't, like, totally overtaking my life. But I was still kind of nervous about things and came to a point where I was starting to panic. And I read. I don't know how I found it, but the talk, what the church means to people like me, familiar with that Liahonas and iron rods. And for the first time, I was like, oh, there are people who question things and who aren't just 100% by the book, you know, the way I had lived my whole life, black and white. And I thought, this is reassuring. And there was a client I was working with at the time who was very. What we'd call Liahona or liberal or progressive Mormon. And we would talk, and I'd just be like, okay. Like, maybe I can. Maybe I can do this and figure it out. At that same time, I found the forum, stay LDS and your talk why people leave the church and what the church, why I stay. And so those were things that was like, okay, there's people who are making it work, so I don't have to panic about this. It's gonna be okay. And so I thought, yeah, even though these things are weird, I can figure it out. And I didn't tell any. I was just like, this is something that.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] Why didn't she tell anyone?

Tanner Gilliland [00:53:02] I honestly didn't. I didn't think that there was anyone who could give me any good answers. And I thought it would be a quick fix. I didn't realize, like, the rabbit hole would be such a plunge. I just thought, okay, there's some weird things. Like, yeah, this polygamy thing was really weird, but I'll get to the bottom of it, and then things will be back to normal.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:53:23] And. And sorry, it's kind of a lot before Samantha gets into the picture. So I just kind of keep going with things, and it becomes the snowball, and it just gets more and more where all of a sudden I'm hearing about seer stones and all these kind of things that I'd never really heard of. And polygamy is getting more and more hairy the more I try to figure it out. And. And, oh, and then one day I read it was actually this post goes. This Greg Trimble post goes along the Internet all the time. That's like, 15 reasons that the Book of Mormon is true. And I Was like, I need to. I need to read that. And then reading through, I'm like, these aren't very great points. And then I got to the comments section and someone had linked to Mormon think they're like, for more information, visit here. So I was like, what is this? And so I click on it. And it didn't like, immediately strike me as an anti Mormon think. Like, lightning didn't strike me and I didn't. Wasn't overcome with a super dark feeling. So I'm like, okay, this must be like, okay. And I start reading and it was bad. I stayed up the whole night reading everything that they had written about the Book of Mormon, the Witnesses, everything, and was just devastated, absolutely devastated. Because I'm thinking for the first time, it's like, wait a second, what if this is all just.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] What were some of the things about the Book of Mormon and the Witnesses that were troubling?

Tanner Gilliland [00:54:47] So the anachronisms were a big thing. I was not aware that there was no archaeological evidence that the Book of Mormon existed. Maybe I had kind of heard that, but it was like, oh, yeah, faith. But it was like all of a sudden there were specific things. Horses. There weren't any horses. Because fair Mormon, they try to, you know, they like to stick to the Central American model, but there were no horses in Central America during the Book of Mormon time. The archaeology doesn't work. And there were no goats like it says in the Book of Mormon, and there weren't elephants and there was no steel. And so, you know, all these gold, all these things that I just was not aware of. And then I. Then it was like, okay, I have to figure this out now. So it was like, throw open the curtains.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] What about the Witnesses? What was wrong with the Witnesses?

Tanner Gilliland [00:55:33] The idea of spiritual eyes really was weird to me. Like, like they didn't. Maybe they didn't actually handle and see the place with their physical eyes. Maybe it's just kind of this, like, imagined spiritualized experience. Because some of the witnesses, Martin Harris especially talked about that also that they had different, like, spiritual events. Martin Harris said that he'd put the Book of Mormon up with any other Shaker book. I'm thinking, come on, man, it's the Book of Mormon. Like, you can't just say it's as good as any Shaker book. And he also talked about visions that he had had of, like, just really weird, bizarre things. And I'm like, is he really a credible source at all? And there were some other things too, but. Yeah. And so that really made Me panic. And shortly thereafter, I read the story of Tom Phillips and his problems with the Book of Mormon. And I was. I was actually reading it on my phone at an activity at my bishop house. And, you know, everyone's talking about these churchy things, and I'm reading Tom Phillips exchange with Jeffrey R. Holland, and just like, just feeling like I was imploding. The world was just falling apart.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] Why? What was it about Tom Phillips exchange that was impactful to you?

Tanner Gilliland [00:56:45] Because the whole time I had thought, there's a. Like, I was on stale ds and I'm like, there's people who are making it work. And I was terrified of you.

John Dehlin [00:56:54] Who?

Tanner Gilliland [00:56:54] You, John. I was like. I was like John Dehlin. And not terrified of you. Like, you're this terrible, evil person. But I thought, here's a guy who is like, just trying to figure it out, was just honest, just wanted the truth, and in the end couldn't find it in the church. And I had read about Grant Palmer, never read his book, but I'd read about him and read Tom Phillips account. And I'm thinking, here are these people who are not bad people. They're not looking to sin. I. They just wanted answers and they ended up out of the church. And so for the first time, it was like, shoot, this is going to happen to me. Like, I'm not going to be able to find the answers and I'm going to have to leave the church and my life is going to be ruined and everything I'm known is going to be destroyed. And that was a really, really scary thought. I have a journal entry where I should have found that for you. You'd love it. I was like, I don't want to end up like John Dolan. It was just terrifying.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] Do you have a sense for what month, year this would have been when you were really panicking at this point?

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:51] So that was. It started in the winter and was going into the spring. It was in the spring of whatever year that was. 2000. Not 14. That would have been the year before you graduated. Yeah, the year before. Yeah, 2000. Maybe it was 14. I'm not sure. I'm really bad.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] That's fine.

Tanner Gilliland [00:58:08] It's like a blur. I was there year round. And anyway, so, yeah, so that really made me panic. And I remember doing just. I was praying all the time, like, just help me out. Give me a little answer, lead me in the right direction. And I've always loved reading biographies, like I said. And so I was in the library all the time and I read David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. I read Elder Statesman about J. Reuben Clark. I read a biography of Hubie Brown. Read Rough Stone Rolling. Actually, I think Rough Stone Rolling probably I read a little later, but was just, oh, yeah, because that's. So what happened is I kind of had this moment where I read Jeffrey R. Holland and Tom Phillips exchange. And it just seemed like everything that Tom Phillips was saying was like a rational, decent question that should be able to be answered. And it seemed like Elder Holland was, like, dodging it, not giving straight answers. And I was like, come on, like, you can do it. Like, give him something. He just felt like he was getting beat up, and it was just panic. I'm like, can an apostle give, like, a straight answer to any of these questions? And then I really doubled down. I was like. And so I started reading a bunch of General Authority conference talks and things. And I read Elder Holland. He talks about this, the sudden death thing. Like, you just put God on the line and you pray and you say like this. This is it. Tell me or I'm walking away. And so I did. I went out into a field in Rexburg. It was like, super late, and I just got on my knees and I prayed for hours just in this field alone. I said, just tell me. Give me something, because I can't live like this. I can't. I'm torn. I feel like I can't find answers. It was just nothing. Just nothing. And I was. I signed up for a church history, and the teacher was teaching these things. And I'm thinking, this guy doesn't even know. And if he knows, he's certainly not saying what he should be saying. Because by this point, I know about Danites and the Seer Stone and the different First Vision accounts and the Kirtland Safety Society and all these different things that were kind of controversial that the teacher wouldn't even allude to, wouldn't even touch on. And so I'm like, I can't take my questions to him because this isn't even a reality for him. And so it just felt really alone. Felt like there was no one I could turn to. But even after I had that night where I was just pleading and just walked away with nothing, I would. Felt so dejected and just like God had given up on me. And I'm thinking, maybe there's not even a God. Well, around that time, I was reading a lot of different blogs and things, and like I said, I had read Rock Waterman's blog, and I came across this Post not. He had written. My friend Brett Bartell wrote it about the actual message of the Book of Mormon. And that became a huge thing for me. Like, well, if the Book of Mormon is not true, none of it's true. And that's what I taught as a missionary, so that's what I'm holding to. And he wrote this post that was kind of like, you know, why are we worrying so much about archaeology? Let's focus on the message of the Book of Mormon. The message of the Book of Mormon is to bring us into the presence of God. So if the Book of Mormon can bring us into the presence of God, it's a true book, regardless of where it happened or how it happened. And then he mentioned a book by Denver Snuffer called the Second Conversing with the Lord through the Veil. And at this point, I was so desperate for any sort of light, any sort of. Sort of answer, any way to make Mormonism work, but I was like, well, I'll read that book. And he said, you know, in his article, he talked about how, like, this book really portrayed the actual message of the Book of Mormon. And so I found it in the BYU Idaho library, which is interesting because Denver Snuffer had been excommunicated by that point, but they had his book in the BYUI library. And I started reading it and felt like, maybe this is what's gonna redeem Mormonism for me. Maybe, like, I've just been focusing on the wrong things. And what I really need to focus on is my relationship with Jesus Christ and maybe, like, the actual teachings of Joseph Smith. Maybe we've lost sight of them, and maybe I just need to focus on that more and that'll solve all my problems. So that was. This is 2014, getting my dates ready. This is spring of 2014. And at that point I decided I'm gonna start from scratch. I'm just gonna forget everything that I learned before and I'm gonna do it all over again. And I'm gonna read everything that Joseph Smith has ever written, ever said, or ever, you know, is supposed to have said. I'm gonna read Rough Stone Rolling and really just try rebuilding this Mormon paradigm over again. So I did. I read Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Words of Joseph Smith. I read E hat's thesis about, you know, Joseph Smith. I read Lectures on Faith, read the Doctrine and Covenants, read the Book of Mormon in this span of a year, and was just really, really trying to figure it out.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Thanks for joining us today on MormonStorm. If you enjoyed this episode. Please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower

Tanner Gilliland [01:03:41] Lights and other sources. Cease to make me whole when with the wounded heart, anger or mountains I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 574

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Tanner Gilliland [00:00:37] And so.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Oh, no.

Samantha Snyder [00:00:38] No.

Part Two Recap and Samantha's Blogging

John Dehlin [00:00:39] All right, so we're. We're back with Tanner Gilliland and Samantha Snyder exploring Mormon millennials on Mormon Stories podcast. On episode one, we heard from Samantha and Tanner. Tanner talked about growing up in Tucson. Is that right?

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:00] Flagstaff.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Flagstaff. It's all the same to me.

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:02] Very different.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Total.

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Growing up in Flagstaff with second of eight children, uber Mormon upbringing, super devout, served a mission in Brazil. We talked about Samantha also growing up in England. And Ethics, Suffolk.

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:21] What is it?

Samantha Snyder [00:01:22] Essex.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Essex. Converting to the church around 16, 17, and both of them ending up in BYU, Idaho, where they met. But then Tanner experience a couple years of a pretty severe faith crisis. And so, Tanner, why don't you pick up from where you left off and tell us how Samantha got dragged down into your evilness.

Tanner Gilliland [00:01:47] Yeah, so. Yeah, so I was doubting a ton, but decided to, like, double down, start from scratch, read everything ever written by Joseph Smith. And then. So by the time I had done that, that was when Samantha had graduated.

Samantha Snyder [00:02:03] Yeah, I graduated the semester before Tanner, so he was at BYUI for another seme. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:02:08] And then there was the summer and I graduated and I was working as an EFY counselor, too. So that was. That was a little weird because it's like, how can I tell these kids that they can pray and get an answer when that has never worked for me my whole life? I never got an answer about the Book of Mormon, so it wasn't like I could fall back on this testimony. Oh, I remember when God told me it was true. Never happened. Never about the church, never about Joseph Smith, never about the Book of Mor.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] But I remember you saying that you would have spiritual experiences just without asking about them.

Tanner Gilliland [00:02:44] Sure. But it was like it was this feeling of love and peace, but never like that this book or this person or this organization is true. It was just kind of this kind of transcendent feeling. Okay, so EFY could. Yeah, as an efy, but EFY was still really wonderful. Best job I've ever had. Loved it. It's Just really great working with the you. But it was difficult for me at times, knowing my own struggles and trying to, like, pretend, I guess, that they weren't an issue or that they wouldn't be an issue for these kids. By the time I had my second year of efy, I was in that point where I was like, really just doubling down. And so, like, I felt like maybe I was even a better counselor because I was like, so gung ho about, like, just follow Christ, follow Christ, be good, don't worry about any of the other stuff. And then. And it was during EFY that Samantha called me and said that she was starting a website with our friend Blake about millennial Mormons. And they would just discuss trending topics, gospel related issues. And we had written together. And so she invited me to do some writing for them.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] So Samantha, tell us about what led you to want to blog.

Samantha Snyder [00:04:10] So I was a copywriter or, you know, at this point when I graduated in, was doing a copywriting internship. So writing was, you know, what I wanted to do. And so originally me and one of my friends started just a general website, like one of those kind of viral nova style websites where it's like, you won't believe what this hamster ate yesterday. And that was like my first real time starting blogging. And that, like, kind of fell apart pretty quick. I mean, we did it for a couple months and then we got bored of that. And in that time, I remember saying to that friend who's called Jared, I was like, should start a website called Mormon Millennials. And he was like, pretty up for the idea. And so we came up with all these different things. We were like, yeah, it can be really good because, you know, we have these, we have lds.org, and we have mormon.org, and then we have people's personal blogs, which can be kind of controversial because, remember, I was very, very Mormon at this point. And so anything that was at all negative about the church, I did not like, I didn't appreciate anything. Ordained women, anything you would do, like any of that stuff was just not. I didn't think it was good. So I wanted to have a place that was like lds.org approved kind of website, but it was like the style of a blog. So the plan was for it to be in between, like a church site and a personal blog, like making sure everything's consistent with doctrine. And so the me and that friend just kind of never ended up doing it. But I told my friend Blake, okay,

John Dehlin [00:05:37] wait, wait, wait, wait. Why millennials like, tell us what it means to be a millennial to you and why you would identify with that label.

Samantha Snyder [00:05:45] Number one. Cause I was born in 92, which I think is like, what do you

John Dehlin [00:05:49] have to do to qualify to be a millennial?

Samantha Snyder [00:05:50] I think it'85 to 2000 or something. It was like a. Basically, like, our age range is millennials. I think it's people up to about 30 at this point anyway. And, you know, it's alliteration. So originally it was gonna be called Mormon Millennials, but that domain was taken, so we made it Millennial Mormons. But, yeah, alliteration. And it appealed to what we wanted to do, which was to make the gospel cool to young people.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Okay, all right. And did you identify as a millennial?

Samantha Snyder [00:06:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Okay, all right.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:21] We have.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Yes.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Yeah. So what does it mean to be a millennial?

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:25] I just got Snapchat.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:06:28] And so me and my friend Blake were both, like, big into, you know, like, Twitter, Instagram, all the social media.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] What else? Anything else.

Samantha Snyder [00:06:35] I mean, we love the gospel and we loved technology.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Did you do Snapchat?

Samantha Snyder [00:06:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:06:40] We had a millennial woman Snapchat.

Tanner Gilliland [00:06:42] So being a millennial is a lot of social media, a lot of pop culture. I feel like our.

Samantha Snyder [00:06:51] We're more into satire. Like, the older generation of the ch, I quickly learned, does not appreciate satire, especially relating to the church. But we wanted to do stuff like that, but in a way that wasn't faith destroying, you know?

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:07:03] And so the way Millennium Woman's got started was so me and Blake had been toying with this idea, and we were thinking, okay, so we should do this.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Who's Blake?

Samantha Snyder [00:07:11] He was just a friend of mine. He also went to BYU Idaho with us.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:07:14] And I didn't know him much from BYU Idaho, but we ended up. I was living in Provo at the time, doing an internship, so. And then he moved to Provo, so we became friends. And, yeah, so he was really gung ho about this idea. You know, he was into that stuff as well. He'd also had some failed website experiments, and so we were both ready to do that, and then one day, he just kind of did it. He just texted me and was like, hey, I bought the domain. I've started this. I'm gonna write this article. So he wrote this article, which was. It was a satire post, and it was called Church Releases Statement on LDS Tools. Because at the time, there'd just been an update to the LDS Tools app. But this was, like, playing on the whole Bro Bros in Provo.

Tanner Gilliland [00:07:54] Kind of like, that guy's such a tool.

Samantha Snyder [00:07:56] Right, right.

Tanner Gilliland [00:07:57] Which is a millennial ph.

Samantha Snyder [00:07:58] Millennial phrase. And so this Oscar was hilarious. It was brilliant. And so it got, I think, hundreds of thousands of views, like 300,000 or something in a short period of time. And so I was like, yeah, let's do this. I mean, this is. Clearly has potential. So.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] Okay, so you launched it.

Samantha Snyder [00:08:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] And so what were some of those early posts? What were some of the biggest posts, most important pieces that you guys, you know, publish?

Samantha Snyder [00:08:27] So our most viewed things, Blake's articles opposing gay marriage and my articles about dating.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] So talk about Blake's for a second now. Is Blake's sort of sexuality discussed publicly at all?

Samantha Snyder [00:08:41] Yeah, he's. He's open about all that.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Okay, so tell us about Blake a little bit.

Samantha Snyder [00:08:44] Yeah, so he's an active gay woman and. Yeah. And is public about that and is, you know, trying to be good in the church and all that stuff. So.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] So his blog post was against gay marriage.

Samantha Snyder [00:08:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] As a gay Mormon man.

Samantha Snyder [00:08:57] Right. So he's very, you know, because he's following the Breth, he promotes other people following the brethren. And so he's. Because he is in that situation personally, like, he feels very comfortable writing about that. And I'm sure he can get away with, like, saying more than I could as, like, a straight female who, you know, what do I know? So, yeah, he would. He would write some very strongly worded posts about why Millennium Mormons shouldn't be, you know, supportive of gay marriage because it's against what the prophets have said. And so those posted really well. And then I would write, I think my most.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] How could a gay. How could a gay Mormon feel that way? Like, do you think he was tormented? Do you think he' just devout? And that wasn't a problem?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:36] Like, I think he's, you know, he's made the personal decision to be faithful. And so he feels like everyone else could do that too. Okay, so I guess, yeah, he's promoting what he's trying to live. Yeah, yeah. Very pro. Brethren.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] So you didn't sense a lot of conflict?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:09:53] No.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] All right, so what else? What did you write?

Samantha Snyder [00:09:55] Yeah, so the first article I wrote that really took off, and this was, I think this was our most viewed post ever. It was. Honestly, a lot of the stuff I'd write would be fluff, but it was 10 dating tips from Elder Hogg and I. Basically, one day when me and Tana, we were doing an internship at Deseret Book by this point And I used to take the train to work every day. And it's like an hour and a half, so I just do Millennium Woman's on the train there. And I read this Elder Holland devotional. And it was. I don't remember what it was called, but it was like a lesser known one. It wasn't like a general conference talk that everyone knew. So I just kind of summarized the talk into these, like, 10 tips for dating. And it just took off. And LDS Living reposted it. You know, that was the first time LDS Living had reposted one of our things. And it just got 100 and hundreds of shares. And, like, by this point, like, I think that month we got a million views, or close to a million, which was just crazy to us because, I mean, how many Mormons are there? How is everyone reading this? But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Okay, so the blog starts really taking off?

Samantha Snyder [00:10:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] You took the train an hour and a half. From where to where?

Samantha Snyder [00:10:59] From Provo to Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] It takes an hour and a half.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:02] Might be an hour and 20. But it's when you factor in driving to the train station.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] And you were living in Provo. Why?

Samantha Snyder [00:11:09] I just moved to Provo. I mean, when I first graduated from Rexburg, I think I hung around Rexburg for about a week, just following Tana around like a dog. So I didn't know what to do with my life. You know, I had a year to find a job before my visa ran out. And it was a very panicky situation, so I just kind of upped and moved to Provo. Honestly, one night, like, I went on Craigslist, found an apartment, moved half an hour later because I felt like it was a good segue.

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:30] She dropped me off at class and said, I'll pick you up. And then in the middle of class, she sent me a text and said, sorry, I'm moving to Provo.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:37] No plans to move to Provo that day.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] And I just didn't. Did you think you'd meet your dream boy there or what?

Tanner Gilliland [00:11:43] She always thought you exhausted the dating pool in Rutsburg.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:50] And Provo was a very successful time for my dating.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] It was.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Provo was good for the dating.

Samantha Snyder [00:11:55] Provo is full of a lot of people.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Okay, so you're dating like a mad woman. Commuting to the church headquarters.

Samantha Snyder [00:12:02] It's a desert book.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Working for Desert Book. Did you get to meet the. The woman?

Samantha Snyder [00:12:06] No, didn't meet Sherry.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Never met Sherry.

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:08] I rode on an elevator with her.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] You rode the elevator with her?

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:11] I did, yeah. I almost Asked her on a D, because my dating life was not quite as nice as Samantha's.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] And what was the culture at Deseret Book like?

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:24] The people who work there are awesome. Yeah, the people super, super nice. You did kind of get to see, like, the corporate side of church affairs,

Samantha Snyder [00:12:34] which to me was completely foreign because at this point I was raging tbm. And so Tanner kind of had all these ideas about the church that were more abstract, but I did not. And so working at Dessert Book was kind of like the exposure to anything.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] And what was eye opening about the corporate culture?

Tanner Gilliland [00:12:50] Well, for instance, give us some examples. We were there over conference weekend and. And they asked us to work that we can do the social media on the Sunday making memes and things that they could put out, like in real time during conference. And I said, I don't think I want to do that. And they're like, well, you know, we need. We need the help and everyone's, you know, doing it. And I said, I just feel like that that's kind of being like money in the temple. Like, we're trying to capitalize on this spiritual experience so that we can promote our brand. Does that feel right? And they were really respectful of that. Like, he was like, yeah, my boss, he said, I get it. And, yeah, you don't have to work, but it's kind of that thing. It was like, what's more important here? Like the spiritual experience or the fact that we're making money off of it? And so there was a lot of stuff like that. Different books that general authorities that we would convince general authorities to put out. You know, we'd do little books and charge so much for them.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] Charge for what?

Tanner Gilliland [00:13:50] For these books that we were, oh,

John Dehlin [00:13:52] $30 books or whatever.

Tanner Gilliland [00:13:54] Yeah, really expensive books that, like. And the way we're marketing it, making people feel like they needed to buy these books, we'd never be like, you have only good members will buy this book. But that's kind of the vibe you get. It's like when Deseret Book puts out this book about the. What the profit says that people need to understand. You kind of get this vibe that, like, yeah, I need that. But for us, it was all about the money, it seemed.

Samantha Snyder [00:14:19] And neither of us were into and like, even me as completely, you know, like, orthodox. I was like, that whole Sunday thing really bothered me. And did I work on Sunday? I might have relented.

Tanner Gilliland [00:14:29] I think you did.

Samantha Snyder [00:14:29] But yeah, that was like the first thing that I was like, wow. Not. Not ideal. Because the church has social Media team already ready to do all that stuff. So Deseret Books not doing it to get the message out to people. People are gonna see those quotes and memes everywhere anyway. We're doing it for like brand awareness, right? Not for any spiritual reason, in my opinion.

Tanner Gilliland [00:14:49] Yeah. I said, what if we make the memes but we don't include. So we're just. Because they were like, well, we're putting out a nice message and things. And I said, well, what if we take our logo off? And he's like, we can't do that. And I said, so it's about the brand awareness and not the message? Yeah, it's, you know, scratch your back, you scratch mine. Mutually beneficial relationship.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:10] I said, nah, I'm not for that.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Anything else or was that the only thing that kind of. You didn't love? There was.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:15] There was other things. I feel like all the time I would just.

Samantha Snyder [00:15:17] Money stuff.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:18] Yeah, money things.

Samantha Snyder [00:15:19] And I did the social media post and so I feel like. Well, you were doing general ads, weren't you? But writing this social media posts. I mean, number one, I found it very stressful. Like how the brand is obviously like completely orthodox. And then we're trying to like. Remember when we had that meeting about selling the really expensive New Testaments or something? Just things like they were planning on making a million dollars by selling these hundred dollar copies of the New Testament or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] And. But you're tbm, so you're thinking this is God's bookstore.

Tanner Gilliland [00:15:52] At this point, I probably couldn't be classified as tbm.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] You weren't. Yeah, you were. You the Rails. But you, Samantha, were right.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:00] Yeah, but. But I was. Still had a brain and I still thought, this isn't right. Like not nothing terrible went on there. Like it was a good place to work. I don't want this to sound like we just hate a desert book.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:09] Because we didn't. But it was just. It was just an insight.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:12] Talks about how things work.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] So how did Tanner affect you?

Samantha Snyder [00:16:16] Okay, so was it a desert book?

Tanner Gilliland [00:16:21] Yes, it was before. I mean, it started before desert book because I remember talking with you on the phone.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:26] I remember that too.

Tanner Gilliland [00:16:27] Yeah. Well, there and even before at efy, when you were telling me about the website, I kind of told you about some of my doubts and things. And then I mentioned, well, I've also read this really great book and you know, some of these things that are happening in church history, it's just because, you know, men are men, but, you know, we can all become prophets and you were, like, kind of uncomfortable with that idea.

Samantha Snyder [00:16:47] I think that it started because I became aware that, like, oh, Tanner knows a ton about the gospel, and I always knew he was very faithful, so I'd always looked up to him, but it was, you know, becoming really obvious. Like, he really knows the church. He knows its history. He knows everything.

Tanner Gilliland [00:17:00] At this point, I was studying six hours a day for this whole year. I would get home from work and would go immediately to the books or to whatever history blog I was following at that time and would just read until midnight and then fall asleep and then wake up, go back to work, come home, study, and that was all I did.

Samantha Snyder [00:17:20] Yeah. So I would ask. I remember one time I was writing an article, and the goal of the article was kind of like, to show that there's some ways we're kind of being, you know, one foot in Babylon and we should step out. So I think I texted Tanner or something and said, hey, what are some ways that we're living in Babylon, like, in the church? And he was like. He listed all these things, like, well, we don't follow Christ's commandment to read the words of Isaiah, and we built a mall. And like, just. Just like, things like that. Which. Those things didn't really stress me out, did they? I mean, I think I kind of got on board with those as, like, yeah, this is kind of.

Tanner Gilliland [00:17:57] I taught you to, like, City Creek. You'd go there every day, and I would just be like.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:01] At first, I was resistant of City Creek. Ye. But there would be some things Tanner would say. Like, you know, if he said that he didn't think Brigham was a prophet, like, when he said that or when we would talk about. Because we. Denver snuffer had just been excommunicated, or something was going on with that. Oh, and you were. Was that when John was. Yeah, you were maybe about to get excommunicated. It was around that time when there was, like, excommunications going on. And so I was like, yeah, excommunicate them all. Like, they're apostates. And so we'd have conversations about that.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Appreciate that.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:33] The story of redemption.

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:33] Probably the subject of some office satires.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:36] Oh, yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:37] We talked about dressing Halloween by then. I was won over. I defended you for.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:42] Yeah, he did. He defended you.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] And the people were attacking me.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:45] It was just me and Tana talking.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:18:48] Me and. Me and Blake.

Tanner Gilliland [00:18:49] How about that John de Lynn guy, huh?

Samantha Snyder [00:18:51] Everyone at Desert Book, he's union. I'm just kidding. So, yeah, I. Where are we At. So when he would say things against like Brigham Young maybe not being a prophet or anything against like the Brethren, because I think that was like the first layer, I was just very resistant to that. I was like, no, this is, this, this isn't right. Like you are going down a scary path.

Tanner Gilliland [00:19:12] Yeah. Because it wasn't all like, oh, I'm. I'm think I'm doubting all of Mormonism. I was taking that like Denver Snuffer ish approach, Rock Waterman approach. Like, no, Joseph had it right. And it's all just kind of gone off the rails since then. So we need to get back on track. So like all the opulence of the modern church and corporate stuff, corporate stuff, that was all evidence that the church was off the rails. And so that was the kind of stuff that we would discuss.

Samantha Snyder [00:19:39] And I would argue with him like to the bone if I can. And I didn't really have much to stand on because I wasn't. I mean I had a decent knowledge of church doctrine compared to maybe your average 21 year old girl, but like nothing, nothing spectacular. And so I would maybe try and look into stuff a little bit so I could refute him, but you know, it just ended up leaving me stressed. And then the typical reaction would be, you know, I'm stressed because he's made all these points that make me feel uncomfortable and that don't seem true. But like they kind of did, but probably not. And so I would just think, okay, well, when I was having that conversation with Tanner, I felt really stressed and upset and God wouldn't make me feel like that. And so then I would, you know, the cognitive dissonance mechanism kick in. And then I would be like, okay, but when I just think about the church as I know it, that makes me feel very peaceful, very calm, very happy. And so I would just always revert back to that for a while.

Samantha's Faith Cracks and Denver Snuffer

John Dehlin [00:20:31] So when did things start cracking for you?

Tanner Gilliland [00:20:35] Before or after?

John Dehlin [00:20:37] A while later. Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:20:38] Okay, so it was like eight months later.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] So I know that at some point you really started following Denver Schnaufer. Did that happen before Samantha started?

Tanner Gilliland [00:20:46] Yeah, so that was all along this time when I'm most. Yeah, while I'm living in Salt Lake City and you know, studying church history like crazy. Studying also the scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith and everything. Trying to. And hope and like it was kind of this last ditch attempt to make Mormonism work because Denver Snefer is the guy with the answers. He's seen Jesus after all, so he

John Dehlin [00:21:10] should know so did you connect with a group of other kind of followers of him? Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:21:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:15] How'd you find him?

Tanner Gilliland [00:21:17] So I. A long time before, I had got on LDS Freedom Forum, when I was, like, first digging in to stuff about the church.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] That's a forum about what, libertarianism or.

Tanner Gilliland [00:21:26] It kind of. I think it started as a libertarianism forum, but now it's just kind of across the board. There's like, discussions on politics, discussions on feminism, discussions on just, like, general gospel topics. General topics, like deep gospel topics. And so I like that because it was like, okay, we can talk about some of the deeper things rather than these just surface, you know, service and love. And so there I kind of. Oh. And there was, like, a concentration of Denver Snuffery, RockwaterMany kind of people there, and they knew a lot of church history. And so it was kind of this hard break for me because, like, when I read Denver Snuffer's book, his first book, I was like, oh, he saved Mormonism for me. It's great. But then all these people who are associated with him would like, you know, down talk the modern church leaders and things, and that was kind of hard for me to adjust. But, you know, studying the history and working it out with them, I kind of came to see that as well. Like, yeah, Joseph Smith had it right, and the brethren since then haven't really been actual prophets, just kind of men doing their best. And sometimes maybe not their best. And so through the LDS Freedom Forum, I was able to connect with a lot of these people. And then later on Facebook, and there was a lot of them living in Salt Lake. And so I met up with a few. I think the first, like, they call it the Remnant. That's the. That kind of group of people. You just kind of what they say, the Remnant. And I went to some event that they had, and it was great because we just, like, talked church history.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Where's Eva?

Tanner Gilliland [00:23:02] It's just some, like, park in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] And how many people showed up?

Tanner Gilliland [00:23:06] Probably 20.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] And were they weird people? Cool people?

Tanner Gilliland [00:23:10] They're weird people. A lot of weird people. Weird. Cool, because, like, they seemed not. Not all of them. There. There are some people who are really cool, but, like, some of the people there seemed really off but, like, also really committed to the gospel. So I'm like, I'm just glad you're committed, even though you seem, like, a little crazy. But at that event, I connected with. With a couple. They're. They're young, a little younger than my parents, but they have kids Almost my age. And we got to be really good friends. And through them, I met other people who were more normal and just loved the gospel, who knew church history and were making it work in a way that I didn't feel was like just ignoring all these things. So it was really great for me and really loved. I was with them all the time. So I'd study through the week, and then on the weekends I'd meet up and, you know, we'd have sacrament together.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Wait, so you'd go rogue and take the sacrament outside of the chapel?

Tanner Gilliland [00:24:10] Right. So here's the thing is, like, I was very, very worried about displeasing God in any way. So a lot of my historical studies were just, like, seeing what is okay. So, for instance, taken before I took the sacrament with anybody, I, like, studied out the history of the sacrament, Sacrament and of authority, and who was allowed to make the call. And from all that I had studied, I'd say that you can't. Like, I could make a case that I'm allowed to take the sacrament. If a worthy priesthood holder has blessed the sacrament, then I'm allowed to take it. Whenever Joseph Smith did, he didn't, you know, you didn't have to be in a church building and the bishop didn't have to give the approval. And I could. I could prove that historically. So then I was like, oh, then I am okay to do this. And I know that I'm not going to display. Please God.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] So you're with these other couples in their house, and you're all blessing and passing the sacrament to each other.

Tanner Gilliland [00:24:59] Yeah, and it was a beautiful experience because it was very intimate and,

Samantha Snyder [00:25:05] I

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:05] don't know, just kind of really beautiful. And they would always do it with wine.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] What?

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:12] Yeah, because that's originally how it was done, right? Jesus said wine. So, you know, why are we doing water? Hebrew J Gram. That's why we're doing it with water.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] You drink wine?

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:20] Not at first, because I had to see if it was okay for me, me to do it. So at first I just did water. And then I was like, all right, now I'll study, like, the history and figure out if this is okay for me to do. And eventually I came to the conclusion that, yeah, I can do wine.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Jesus drink wine. The Book of Mormon mentions wine. Doctrine and Covenants says wine.

Tanner Gilliland [00:25:36] It all says wine. So really the only reason I wouldn't is tradition and because I don't want to get excommunicated, which I was really terrified at at the time. And so eventually I just like, tried it once. Like, I had, like, a little tiny sip, barely just a taste. And I was like, ah, this is disgusting. And I was like, well, I'm done doing that, so. Oh, they also. And usually they would give me grape juice. It wasn't water. Like I said, it was grape juice. So I was like, almost there. But then it was like, at. There was a bigger gathering in Salt Lake. And it was kind of. It's this funny location. It's like. It's just under the train tracks or under the. Under the overpass, the freeway overpass by the train tracks. This road. Really, like, janky location. And you get to this building, and it's got all these, like, weird plywood and metal sheets on it. And there's this huge door with, like, a little opening. I'm like, are we going to a speakeasy? And I show up there.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] What part of Salt Lake?

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:33] Like, downtown, like, but, like, what north?

John Dehlin [00:26:35] What west Lake of Bright.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:36] It's probably like 600 north around there, 400 north. And that kind of area just there by the freeway, the train tracks.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:26:45] And just real close to downtown. But, yeah, it was, like, super sketchy. And we all go through the secret apostate meetings for those who love the gospel too much. And it was really. It was a great time, and I loved meeting with them. And so my first, like, actual drink of wine was I. They were going around, you know, that we were doing the sacrament, and they said, do you want grape juice or do you want wine? And they said, grape juice, please, and give me this big glass. And so. And I'm like, oh, this is not wine. And they had given grape juice juice to all the kids, but it was wine. And I was like, hey, kids, hang out a second.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] It wasn't grape juice. It was wine.

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:21] It was wine. And that was my first, like, real dive into wine for sacrament. And I just sat there for the rest of the meeting. Like, I better not move around too much. I had been fasting all day, so probably not.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] You're about to have a really kirtland, like, spiritual experience.

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:38] Okay, so. And yeah, it was a really great time. Met a lot of cool people.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] So what are those folks doing? Like, what are these think? What do they do moving towards? Like, if the church is in apostasy and they're all, like, going rogue, having the sacrament, re baptizing, like, what's their end game?

Tanner Gilliland [00:27:56] So in August, in fact, the day after I started my internship at Deseret Book, remember, I'm thinking Denver Snuffer is the guy who redeemed the church for me. So I'm like throwing all my money into his. And he's. The whole time, he's. He's. He started this lecture series where he was going around to different places along the Mormon corridor giving these lectures, which

Samantha Snyder [00:28:15] he said God told him to do. That's the lectures.

Tanner Gilliland [00:28:18] And they were really cool, like, deep doctrine stuff. Like really, like stuff you don't get at general conference where you're like, whoa, this is. This is me. And the whole time he's saying, you know, I'm never gonna start another church, which was a big concern for me. I'm like, I don't want to join some fundamentalist offshoot branch. There's enough of those. But then in his last lecture, which was in August, the day after I started my internship, he did his last lecture and he says the LDS Church no longer has priesthood keys. He says it's done. From now on, you guys have to. You do your own baptisms. Everyone needs to be re baptized. And this is all preparatory. And there's all these scriptural justifications for what's happening with the Gentiles and the Hebrews. The idea is that of eventually the Gentiles, us, the church, the LDS Church, has rejected the fullness of the gospel. And so the fullness of the gospel through Denver Snuffer is being offered again to the earth. And so all these people are accepting that and getting ready to build the city of Zion and have a temple where all the ordinances of the Lord's house will be fully revealed.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] So these people are working on building a city and a temple?

Samantha Snyder [00:29:34] Some of them, eventually. Some of them. Literally.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Where?

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:36] Well, they haven't. They haven't like officially gathered yet.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:39] They're just individual people. Have, like, who. Who's that guy who was building a city? Told you about it.

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:46] Oh, that's the churches building the city. No, but that's the end.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:49] It was some guy in LDS Remnant who said, I'm building a city and you should come.

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:53] I was like, oh, no, that was my polygamous friend.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:55] Oh, okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:55] I also made friends with a lot of polygamous friends.

Samantha Snyder [00:29:57] Different weird friends.

Tanner Gilliland [00:29:58] I was just trying to figure it out. You know everybody. Yeah, I had like Mormons, Hebrew guys, polygamists every weekend.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:07] So they're like, gearing up for the building of Zion.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Okay. And at some point regarding baptism, talk about that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:16] So, yeah, the idea was that everyone needs to be re baptized. And that was a really big blow to me. Like, it. I. That Day at work, I just, I went to the bathroom and I was just crying because I was like, this is exactly what I hope wouldn't happen. This thing that's gonna get me excommunicated, kicked out of the church and.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Well, there's a log for why people had to be rebaptized because the church

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:36] doesn't have authority anymore.

Samantha Snyder [00:30:37] I don't think they said. I don't think Denver said they had to be, did they?

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:41] No, they do. Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:30:42] Was it had to be. I thought it was just. If your baptism had been too recent, since they lost the authority, you should do it.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Did he give a date, like when they lost the authority?

Samantha Snyder [00:30:51] When he was excommunicated.

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:52] The day he was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Oh, wow. That's a little bit self important, isn't it?

Tanner Gilliland [00:30:56] That was what. That was my original take. But then, you know, we were all like, God will do what he will do. You know, if he's a servant, then that's how it is.

Samantha Snyder [00:31:02] And he doesn't come across as someone who's like self aggrandizing. Like, he doesn't seem to seek for any fame or.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] But you never met him.

Samantha Snyder [00:31:09] No, but just from his.

Tanner Gilliland [00:31:10] I don't even know what he looks like.

Samantha Snyder [00:31:11] I only listen to himself up as like, yeah, listen to me, follow me. He's like, don't listen to anything I say. Like, you pray about this and you figure out.

Tanner Gilliland [00:31:17] And that was the cool thing about it.

Samantha Snyder [00:31:18] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:31:18] Because like all the other, you know, one's mighty and strong and they come along, the hundreds that have come since Joseph Smith, they've all been like, hey, it's all about me and listen to me and I have the keys and that. And he was like, don't listen to me. I'm just, I'm just a man. Like, you guys go to God, figure it out. Go to the scriptures and figure out, listen to, you know, read Joseph Smith. And I'm like, I like that, you know, someone who's unwilling to be super dogmatic about everything and say, here's my law in a bit. But this was the point in time where he all of a sudden was like, this is how it is and you need to do it. And that really was scary to me. But I said, I'll do what I've done, did with the sacrament and I'll research it and I'll see if that's okay. So I studied and I read, you know, works by Ogden Craft and Michael Quinn about rebaptism in Nauvoo. He has an essay about it. And just to see if this is something that would displease God. And through a study of the scriptures and the history, I said, okay. This isn't. It's okay to do. You can be rebaptized and be okay with God. But at that point, I wasn't ready to do that because I didn't want to get excommunicated and didn't feel like this whole time I'm, like, praying really hard and trying to exchange. Because the whole idea is that, like, you know, you have this personal relationship with Jesus Christ and eventually you'll have visions and dreams and eventually you'll see Jesus. That's the end game. And none of this is happening to me. I don't feel any closer to God despite, like, all my really, really diligent efforts to get anything. And so I'm like, I'm.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Were you trying to see Christ?

Tanner Gilliland [00:32:47] I knew that that was like. Like I said, the end game. I wasn't like, I need to see you right now up here and let's have lunch. I wasn't expecting it anytime soon.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:32:57] But I was hoping for something, you know, maybe like a good feeling every once in a while, because I wasn't really feeling that. Just felt really. And had felt totally distant from God for some time, despite my just over the top efforts to try to connect with him. And so I got to the point where I. I just. I realized rebaptism is an okay principle. And at this time, there was a bunch of people who were getting excommunicated for getting rebaptized, which was scary because I'm thinking, I don't. I really don't want that to happen to me. And this is. You know, we are talking about these things a lot.

Samantha Snyder [00:33:34] Yeah. By the time Tanner was considering getting rebaptized. Yeah. I was, like, pretty on board by this point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] And so. So, Samantha, were you starting to get into this stuff or.

Samantha Snyder [00:33:43] Yeah. So round. So I moved. I moved to Logan in October, November time. And then to Logan. Yes, I moved to Logan.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] 2014.

Samantha Snyder [00:33:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:33:56] So not that long ago.

Tanner Gilliland [00:33:58] And left me alone at Deseret Boat

Samantha Snyder [00:34:00] left town a year ago. Yeah, almost.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:34:04] Yeah. So I got this job at usu, which was way better than the, you know, minimum wage we made as interns. And so I just left Desert Book and Roundabout. It took till about. I think it was about February when I think we were texting one Sunday. And the lesson in my Sunday school, we're in different worlds, had been about the prophet And I remember me and Turner were talking about the fact that he just didn't think Thomas S. Monson was a prophet. And I thought, well, how could you possibly think that? And he said, well, why would I? Like, he hasn't shown me anything to make me think he is. Like, what has he prophesied? Like, what seer qualities has he shown? Like, what revelations has he given? And so by this point, I was like, you know, that is a good point. And because it was more. I mean, with Tanner, I feel like his whole faith transition was like he kind of lost faith in everything and then, like, worked his way back up and went up to the Denver snuffer thing. Whereas for me, I never, like, went to the bottom. I just kind of slowly descended because I went from, you know, everything. Everything is true in every regard to, like, okay, so maybe there's some stuff about the prophets isn't. You know, it wasn't like this crash down. It was more slow.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] So if someone were to say, tanner's just being a bad influence on you and weakening your faith, what would you say?

Samantha Snyder [00:35:21] Well, the thing is, throughout this whole process, people just say that. Oh, people absolutely say that. Throughout this whole process, Tana was never just like, hey, Sam, you need to hear this, or, I need to tell you this. It was always. I would ask him questions, and he would, you know, give me answers. But a lot of the time, you know, it would annoy me because he would say, you know, go and read this. Like, find out for yourself in this scripture. Like, he wanted me to find out for myself, and I just wanted him to tell me the answer. So I was, like, always, like, pushing him, like, no, just tell me, like, what do you think? And he'll be like, I don't want to tell you what I think, because, like, I don't want to, you know, give. I might not be right. So you just figure. And I was like, no, just tell me what you think, and I promise I won't just, like, latch onto it. I want to know. And so, you know, a lot of stuff that Tana said, I would be like, yeah, I just don't agree with that because it's too extreme. But some stuff I began to realize was really valid, like, why isn't Thomas S. Monson giving any revelations? Or why is it nothing? Like when Joseph Smith was the prophet. And so I started to kind of subscribe to that way of thinking, but not in as extreme of a way as Tana. I think it was about. So, yeah, February, like, because I got married in the temple in March. And by the time I got married in the temple, I thought, Thomas Muzzle's probably not a prophet, but he's still been sustained by common consent. And so it's not, you know, he could be a prophet, he just isn't yet. Or, you know, I didn't think it

Tanner Gilliland [00:36:43] was working on it.

Samantha Snyder [00:36:44] I wasn't like, the whole church is an apostasy and this is terrible. And I'm going get re baptized. It was just sort of, you know, he's not like Joseph Smith. That's obvious. But, you know, it's still the right church to be in. And he's still.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] He has the potential to be a prophet.

Samantha Snyder [00:36:58] Yeah, he's got potential.

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:02] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:37:03] Basically as were mine. Because at this point I was like, we should all be prophets. So, you know, why do I care about Thomas so much? So then. So, yeah, I got married in the temple and obviously got endowed around that time.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] Roll. What month?

Samantha Snyder [00:37:16] March.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] March of 2015.

Samantha Snyder [00:37:19] Yeah. I was the witness of my wedding.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Yeah, you went.

Samantha Snyder [00:37:22] So it's still temple wedding.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] So you're drinking wine, getting re baptized

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:26] and attending the temple because it wasn't a sin. Because I had proved to myself that it wasn't a sin.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] Because when were you re baptized?

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:34] I was on Easter. On Easter Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Okay, so after the wedding. But you were about to get re baptized.

Samantha Snyder [00:37:41] Things are getting very serious.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] Okay, so he attended your dude drinking wine, attendees attending the temple. You're violating the word of wisdom.

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:48] Well, I wasn't doing it for fun. I didn't even like it. I hated it. I still hate wisdom.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] The temple recommend question. Word of wisdom.

Tanner Gilliland [00:37:55] I was a word of wisdom. Because the word of wisdom says wine

Samantha Snyder [00:38:00] for the sacrament, not by way of commandment.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:03] And the word of wisdom isn't a commandment.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:04] And by this point, we'd already figured out that there's obviously been no revelation stating that suddenly it is a commandment. Just kidding about what God said earlier. So we didn't even believe it was. Was a commandment.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:12] Yeah. And a lot of this drinking wine, a lot of this was really hard on Connor. Yeah, that was. There was some really.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:19] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:20] Tough conversations there because when I first,

Samantha Snyder [00:38:22] you know, we're engaged and I kind of threw out the idea that maybe Thomas S. Monson isn't a prophet. You know, he's thinking like, oh, crap, like my future wife doesn't think Thomas wants to prophet. You know, to a Mormon, that's a really big deal. That's, you know, that is a roadblock. A roadblock. A Stepping stone to apostasy. So.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] So before you got married in the temple, you were no longer sustaining Thomas S. Monson as a prophet.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:45] So I sustained him because I prayed for him, and I.

Tanner Gilliland [00:38:48] Very nuanced.

Samantha Snyder [00:38:50] I don't think so. I mean, I prayed for him. I believed he was called in the way God wanted, you know, by common consent. And he was the rightful president of the church. And I believed that he was capable of being a prophet, seeing revelator, just

Tanner Gilliland [00:39:04] like any of us.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:04] Just like any of us. But, you know, maybe more so. More so potential. You know, I had fonder views of him than Tanner perhaps had. And I like Thomas Munson. I mean, he's told some great stories about charity.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] Okay, all right. That is a bit of a nuanced testimony.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:20] Now. You put it like I still felt very warm and.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] So did you feel weird having Tanner in the temple with you or not?

Samantha Snyder [00:39:27] Oh, no. Tanner was the most faithful person I knew. I thought. I mean, if anyone's getting to the celestial kingdom, it's Tanner, because, you know, he's of a part person who is reading his scriptures constantly. He's the person who's forgiving people and, like, showing compassion when no other member would like. He's the one that was, like, most representing Christ. And, you know, we talk about his reasoning, so I couldn't fault him. You know, I thought some of the things he did were maybe a bit unnecessary. But I thought there's no way God's gonna be mad at him for that because he cares so much. He's trying so hard.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [00:39:57] So, no, wasn't worried. I was. I mean, that's who I wanted to be there because he was kind of my spiritual guru, in a sense.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] So how was your temple wedding?

Samantha Snyder [00:40:05] Good.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Good experience.

Samantha Snyder [00:40:07] Yeah, we had a really good sealer. He talked about how the ceiling was the penultimate step because the last one is seeing Christ in the flesh. And so I thought that was really cool because.

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:18] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] November action.

Samantha Snyder [00:40:20] Yeah. So I was like, wow, this is meant to be. So. Yeah. And Connor was kind of on board with that idea, too. Like, he could. He could be. Yeah, he could agree with. Read that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] And so then tell us how you got. Oh, was this something you say about the wedding?

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:36] I was gonna say it was sad that your parents weren't able to be.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah, it was in Logan.

Samantha Snyder [00:40:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Did they fly here?

Samantha Snyder [00:40:42] Yeah. We had a ring ceremony and a nice reception, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Okay. So your parents weren't able to be there, but you were. Okay. So how do you get re. Baptized? How does that work?

Tanner Gilliland [00:40:55] So the friends I had made in Salt Lake, and these are adults with, like, kids and great, just terrific people all around. Not just like in gospel stuff. They're just exemplary people and still friends with them to this day. He had re baptized his family. And I kind of made the decision, like, yeah, this is something I want to do. Like, I'm ready to show God that if this is what he wants me to do, then I'm all in. And I'm willing to risk, you know, being excommunicated or whatever it is because I wanted to do whatever was right and this is what seemed right at the time. And so I asked him if he would do it for me. And so drove down to Salt Lake. I think I watched conference on Saturday. And then that Easter Sunday we hiked Spanish Fork Canyon and hiked up to a hot springs there. And I got rebaptized in the hot springs.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] So who baptized you?

Tanner Gilliland [00:41:53] My friend Nick.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] Okay, what was that?

Tanner Gilliland [00:41:55] Like, it was nice. And that was the thing too. Like, another friend was there and he said, like, how do you feel? And I was like, normal. It's a really beautiful morning. And it was. It was a night. All of this had just been like a really nice experience. Really beautiful in the sense, like, oh, we're having this cool moment in nature or, you know, having this cool intimate moment, having sacrament in the living room. But never this, like, powerful spiritual experience, like anything I had in my youth.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Were you kind of hoping maybe.

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:23] Oh, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:25] Really hoping for something. At this point in the game, though, I had. I feel like I had been burned so many times by God that I wasn't, like, getting my hopes too high. It was kind of like I'm content with, you know, just getting the scraps off the table, but if you could throw me one, that'd be great.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] And so did you invite Samantha to your baptism?

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:42] No. In fact, they didn't even know about

Samantha Snyder [00:42:44] it till I did know, didn't I?

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:46] Yeah, I think you said you wanted.

Samantha Snyder [00:42:47] I would have come, but. But I didn't tell Connor at that time. Or maybe I did. No, I don't think I did tell him because it was kind of stressed everybody out. So, I mean, I probably would have

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:56] gone topic, you know.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [00:42:59] So, yeah, got rebaptized and I think. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] So, Samantha, were you ever tempted to follow snuffer?

Samantha Snyder [00:43:09] Yeah, I mean, I feel like I was a snuffer follower. I mean, I wasn't rebaptised, but I listened to all his lectures and that

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:18] would not Be a kosher phrase.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Sorry.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:21] Because he doesn't have followers.

Samantha Snyder [00:43:22] No one should follow him.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] No, it's a remnant. What do I call you?

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:25] What were you called, technically?

Samantha Snyder [00:43:27] People who have read Denver Snuffer and in some ways apply that.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:31] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:43:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] How did you.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:33] Follower of Christ. Who believe. A follower of Christ. Through the original tenets of Mormonism as taught by Joseph Smith and retaught by Denver Snuffer.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Did you not call yourself, like, remnants or like.

Samantha Snyder [00:43:43] Like the Facebook group was called Remnant or LDS Remnant? There is like an actual religion called LDS Remnant, I think, but it's not that. But anyway. Yeah, so Remnant was what we would call it.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] But there's not an identity, like a one word identity.

Tanner Gilliland [00:43:54] No, because it's not a chance.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] You guys need to give Deborah Snuffer some marketing help.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:00] They need a brand.

Samantha Snyder [00:44:02] We know your work.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:02] That's the thing is it's very. It's very non hierarchical, which is all these things that we really liked about it was that there's like no positions.

Samantha Snyder [00:44:09] Ego complex.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:09] Yeah. No one. No one person. Person is in charge. And so that was the thing we thought was cool. Like, there's no, like, actual organization. It's very grassroots.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Okay. All right, so. So you were kind of on board.

Samantha Snyder [00:44:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] All right, so when did things start unraveling? So did anything else happen of interest? Like in.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:30] In Crazy Town, I did a secret temple ceremony.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] What?

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:33] I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] I'm just kidding. But you never saw Christ.

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:39] No, not yet.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] So how did things start fraying?

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:45] Those darn apologists and that darn Mormon stories. Interviewing apologists.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Okay, what happened?

Tanner Gilliland [00:44:51] So at this time, you know, we're both writing a lot. The whole Millennial Mormons thing. The boat had sailed and now she was doing whatsoever is good.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Okay, wait, so talk about. Just briefly talk about that.

Samantha Snyder [00:45:04] So, yeah, I was doing Millennium Woman's, and then I wasn't. It's a short version.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] Talk a little bit more about it. I'm not asking to be nasty, but just.

Samantha Snyder [00:45:14] Right. So basically, obviously, me and Blake had started Millennial Women was together and, you know, it always been very even. And we. I mean, I think that at some point we had to make it an LLC or whatever, you know, like a legitimate business because we were making money and so I wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] You were getting donations?

Samantha Snyder [00:45:30] No, we had advertising.

John Dehlin [00:45:31] How much were you making? Are you able to say?

Samantha Snyder [00:45:33] I mean, I don't want to say I got my engagement ring free.

Tanner Gilliland [00:45:37] So I just want to say that I wrote a lot of articles for them. A lot of them about faith crises and, like, how to treat people with faith crises. And I never saw any of that money.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] Like a thousand bucks a month.

Samantha Snyder [00:45:50] We feed him all the time, though, so it's fine. I think. I think the most. I think, like, me getting my engagement ring was, like, the biggest thing as, like, one single sum. This feels weird, talking about money. We weren't making a ton. Like, we couldn't have lived on it at that point.

John Dehlin [00:46:07] Hundreds of dollars a month.

Tanner Gilliland [00:46:08] It was like a little scale, precise. Hundred each, not, like, a big one. That's fine.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] It's not a big deal.

Samantha Snyder [00:46:13] Yeah. And, yeah, so. And we got, like, some free stuff because, like, some companies would send us stuff, so nothing huge, but it obviously had potential because by this point, it was growing and we were getting, like, you know, like, banks contacting us, like, hey, we want to, like, target millennials in Utah, and do you want to, you know. So we were getting some. Some big stuff happening, and it was growing exponentially. Where am I going with this? So, yeah, so everything was legally in Blake's name, because I wasn't. I mean, I was on a student visa, and he set up the domain.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] So he owned it.

Samantha Snyder [00:46:41] Set up the domain.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:46:42] And, yeah, him and his parents quite business minded. So I was fine with that because we'd always had this verbal agreement. You know, it was like 50, 50 till the end. And basically there was. That began to, like, not be the case. And there was like, some. Essentially, he kicked me out and then wanted me back.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] What for? Why did he kick you out?

Samantha Snyder [00:47:00] We, you know, we would disagree on things, and, you know, we are both really passionate people.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] Was it doctrinal stuff?

Samantha Snyder [00:47:08] No, but if there was an article, it would just be honestly, stupid stuff. Like, we stopped. Blake started getting very. I mean, both of us started getting very, like, brand focused. And so suddenly it went from being this, like, fun little blog we did together where we can just kind of, like, do whatever we want to. Like, oh, no, is this, like, on brand? And it became, like, more serious. And. And I kind of, like, resisted that a bit because I wanted it to, like, stay authentic and be more candid, whatever you want to call it. And so we'd have some disputes about that. And then, you know, Blake started pulling the whole, like, I own this card. And then I was, like, not okay with that. And so then that was when everything kind of blew up, and we eventually, you know, resolved it. Ish. After a lot of tana listening and being the one to say, hey, Sam, like, just think about this and be compassionate in these ways, even though this hurts. So Tana was, like, great to both me and Blake in that time, but. Yeah. So, long story short, in the end, Blake wanted me to come back, but

John Dehlin [00:48:03] he kicked you out? Like, deactivated your.

Samantha Snyder [00:48:06] Well, yeah, he did for a period of time, but then once we kind of resolved things, and he was like, no, I want you to, like, come back and do this with me. And I thought about it a lot, and then I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna do that. I don't think that's smart. So I just started my own thing.

Leaving the Church and Processing the Transition

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Why? Why'd you build?

Samantha Snyder [00:48:18] Because I knew mine and Blake's personalities, and I knew that it wasn't gonna really improve. And it just. And it started to become, you know, once it starts to get into, like, contracts about all this different, like, nuanced stuff, it just. That's just not what my personality is into. Like, I don't want to have to make a contract for everything, you know, I just want to do a blog. Like, come on, we're a Mormon blog, right? It's not this huge empire. So me and my.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] So it wasn't. He. You know, he. He terminated your account at first or suspended it, but then he wanted you back, and you decided not to go back.

Samantha Snyder [00:48:51] Right, because it was. I mean, it's half my website, and he knew that, and. Well, he kind of knew that.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:48:56] And I. And we had a long fight about a lot of stuff, but my posts were originally not taken down, and I was like, I own these blah, blah, blah. But eventually he took my posts off the site, and I started watching Is Good, and so that was the next step.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] Okay, and when was that?

Samantha Snyder [00:49:14] About February, I think we started. Whatsoever Is Good.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Okay. All right, so right before you're married. Yeah, right before your. About your re. Baptism. Okay, so you. Okay. So then when did things start unraveling?

Tanner Gilliland [00:49:28] So we were. You know, both of us were writing. They were obviously writing a lot more. I just did guest posts, and most of mine were historical in some way. And I had some friends. I had a lot of friends, actually, who would message me and ask questions about different things because they knew I had studied. Was constantly studying church history doctrine. And so they come to me with these questions, and I would try to help them out and help them see things from a faithful perspective. And. And one friend, I think, got into the CES letter and really had a lot of tough questions about that. And I had read the CES Not. It's funny. Because everyone thinks like when you leave the church, you did it because you fell prey to all these anti Mormon things. I just didn't really get into that much until after I never read the CES letter all the way through until after never list. Never did any. Like, to this day, I've never read an anti Mormon book.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] But anyway, you were saying the apologists.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:34] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] I was the beginning of your demise.

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] How is that?

Tanner Gilliland [00:50:38] Well, because so there. So he had. So a friend had read the CES letter and then had come to me with these questions and I was like, you know, I gave him some answers that I had these conclusions that I had come to. And he just didn't seem very convinced. And I was like, yeah, I don't like feel really convinced either because it was just kind of on the edge. I remember I was looking to Denver Snuffer and all that as this, like, hope of saving Mormonism for me because I truly, truly loved Mormonism and wanted it to be true. And so I was just willing to do anything. And it was this last ditch attempt, but I wasn't fully persuaded at any point. And so at that point it got to me saying, okay, I need to find some real answers for these things. So I'm like, well, where does one find a bunch of good answers? Mormon stories. He's interviewed a few apologists and things. And so I listened to Brant Gardner talk about the translation process of the Book of Mormon and a few others. I'd listen to Brian Hales talk about polygamy and things and was like, oh yeah, I love, love. To this day, I still haven't enormous respect for Terrell Gibbons and frequently refer people to him. I think his view of the gospel is very mature and intellectually satisfying and honest, which I appreciate compared to other apologetics, which seems just very manipulative and dishonest. But as I'm listening to Brant Gardner explain how the Book of Mormon was translated, I just start thinking and the implications of what he's saying don't work for me. I'm thinking, if Joseph, like had this kind of, you know, if he had this pure revelatory experience and then he's putting it into his words and using, drawing on his culture and his history and his stories and his language and putting that into a record. Well, how can we be certain that this part is from Joseph and this part is from God? How do you distinguish? And if you can't distinguish, how can you be certain that anything is from God? And you know, my mind just starts getting Working on these things. And at that time I also, I had read Origins of Power by Quinn and that didn't really like shake me that much. It was kind of enlightening. And those are some interesting questions he raises or, you know, that I have to ask myself now. And then I started reading Extensions of Power and you know, at this point I didn't, I didn't believe in like the authority necessarily of the modern church. It was just like Joseph Smith and we kind of just hang on to that. But reading through Extensions of Power, I was just thinking like everything just seems so mortal. Like it doesn't seem like God has a hand in any of this. And then I started thinking about like the New Testament and the Old Testament. I think it didn't seem like God had a hand in that either. Like, you know, apostles drawing lots to figure out who the next apostle should. That doesn't sound very revelatory. That doesn't sound any more revelatory than what goes on in Salt Lake. And then I'm just thinking and it all just seems so man made and the Old Testament, what is going on there? Like what was God thinking? And all of a sudden he has this like personality change where all of a sudden he's this nice loving guy who doesn't care if you, you know, commit adultery, but like, oh, if you look at your sister or something, capital punishment. I don't know, it's just, it all seemed very man made. And that was the beginning of a very intense time for me. And we were always at this point, always talking about gospel stuff when we were together non stop. But once I got into this phase where I'm like, the Book of Mormon is starting to unravel again for me and the Bible is unraveling for me and the very foundations of my belief in God are unraveling. That was when I just kind of stopped. And I like anytime she'd bring up anything religious, I just focus on being a good person, Just be a good person. Don't worry about the other stuff. No, don't worry about reading that stuff or just focus on being a good person. Because I honestly was really concerned about their marriage. I thought if I leave the church, which at this point seemed like a possibility again, which was terrifying, I thought what will that do to them? Because they really look up to me

Samantha Snyder [00:54:49] and because me and Connor were both kind of subscribed to that. I want to say also kind of like a watered down dumbass enough ideology between us. So. So at this point Connor also agreed that you know that that's true. Thomas S. Swanson hasn't. Hasn't really given any revelations. And so he was on board, but not, you know, slightly less than me, but we're in the same ballpark, so I suppose.

Tanner Gilliland [00:55:15] So I just really kind of shut down the conversation there, but was very much struggling. And, you know, I was like, okay, just maybe I'll just read the Book of Mormon one more time, even though it just seems so unlikely. And I start going through, and I get to the story of Nephi killing Laban, and I'm like, this just doesn't add up at all. Why does Nephi have to kill Laban? What does that do for anybody? Like, no other myth, really, is that the most efficient method? And then also thinking, like, especially if Joseph Smith isn't like, Nephi proves that he's good at receiving revelations. He has, like, 30 chapters of him just receiving pure revelation. Couldn't the Lord, like, reveal the law of Moses to him? Did he really have to chop off a guy's head for that? And I'm thinking about all these questions and just, like, really starting to collapse. And not just the church, but God, when. Which, at this point, I had occasions where I doubted the existence of God or at least his concern for me. But this is where I was really entertaining the idea that maybe he wasn't there at all. And that was maybe the hardest thing. I started having panic attacks at work. It was just really bad. I messaged, I'm in contact with all these remnant people. And I got on the groups. I'm like, guys, just pray for me because I need something, because this isn't working for me anymore. I can't make sense of any of this. And it was a really, really, really hard time. Probably worse. The worst of the times that I had had because it was all falling apart. And then came. They had actually watched the documentary Going Clear.

Samantha Snyder [00:56:56] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [00:56:57] About Scientology. And Sam knew that I had doubts about the.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] Because we.

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:03] Because even though we, like, had this perspective, we would also sometimes talk about our doubts and things. And she was like, you gotta see this documentary Going Clear.

Samantha Snyder [00:57:10] Have you seen it?

John Dehlin [00:57:11] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [00:57:11] Okay. Crazy.

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:12] So on Memorial Day, I watched Going Clear by myself. I, like, that's May. Yeah. In me. Just right. Yeah. It was the weekend of my birthday, so the Monday after my birthday, I watched Going Clear. And as I'm watching, I'm. I just can't get over the parallels between L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith. They're both these, like, treasure hunters, both with these just incredible imaginations. And Gifts for writing and coming up with these stories and things.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] And,

Tanner Gilliland [00:57:44] you know, they start these religions with this. With weird ideas of kind of fusing all these different science fiction different things. And then the relationship or the similarities between what's the miscavige, the second guy and Brigham Young, just both these kind of like tyrant, iron.

Samantha Snyder [00:58:03] Iron fist and like the methods of, like, how would a Scientologist know they're in a wrong church? Well, they wouldn't because you can't look at anti literature. And if you doubt, then it's your problem. You need to get rid of some demon. You know, like those kind of. Even though Mormonism is a way better religion in my opinion than Scientology, like, it does raise that question of, well, if I was in a false church, how. How would I know given these things.

Tanner Gilliland [00:58:26] Exactly. So. And that's. It just was. It hit me so hard. I was just like, this is Mormonism. Like all this. These same things are. It's just as likely that Scientology is true, that Mormonism is true. And I don't think either of them is likely. And maybe Mormon.

Samantha Snyder [00:58:45] Come on. I don't know.

Tanner Gilliland [00:58:47] I don't know. So I was like, I finished watching the movie and I was serving as a ward clerk at the time and I emailed my bishop and I said, I need to be released from my calling immediately. And the week before was really stressful. I went to a sacrament meeting and then I had to bolt because I was just so full of anxiety. And so I messaged him, I said, I need to be released. And at this point, I didn't know if I was going to leave the church or not. But I knew I couldn't keep doing a calling and things. And every time I'd go to church, I was feeling really angry or something. And I don't. I maybe will go like every once in a while, maybe take a little break and then come back. But then within a very short time, I just realized I couldn't do it. And, and it wasn't. I don't know, it wasn't like I. I don't feel like I ever chose to disbelieve. I felt like it just got to the point where I couldn't anymore. I just, it's like, it's like if you told me right now, I'll give you a million dollars if you believe in Santa Claus. I couldn't do it. And I couldn't believe in the restoration anymore. And then I started thinking, well, what am I going to do? And I just thought about my family and that was really, really hard, because even though my parents are the most loving people in the world, just the perfect Mormon people, I don't know anyone better than my parents, but I even thought, like, what will this mean for our relationship? What will this mean for myself? Siblings, all my friends are Mormon. What's gonna happen? And that's when I, you know, was having panic attacks at work, and I pull up to the parking lot, would just be crying, and I couldn't. Couldn't function. So finally, on one of those days, I just called my parents and said, hey, I can't be a Mormon anymore. And that was. My parents took it so well. My mom was like, that's okay. We love you because you're Tanner and not because you're a Mormon. She said, tell us, what do you want us to do? How can we help you through this?

John Dehlin [01:00:48] Wow. That's remarkable.

Tanner Gilliland [01:00:50] No, it was amazing. And my dad. It was really hard for me to think about my dad because my dad's very, very into the gospel, and that was, like, our special bond. I felt like maybe even more than my other siblings, my dad and I were close because we could talk about the gospel so much, and we both had that passion for it. I just was, like, so worried that that would affect our relationship because that's what we had in common. But even my dad has just been so awesome about it, you know, even being in the Stake Presidency, he just. All they want to do is support me and love me, and, like, the last thing I wanted them to do was, like, start reading the stuff that I had read or anything. I want them to be members of the church because they're great. They're the kind of people that the church needs. But even then, my mom was like, no, I. I want to know, like, if you're having a hard time, I want to understand, because I'm your mom, and I care about you, and I don't want you to feel alone. So that's the kind of people that my parents are. Just incredible. And I didn't. Maybe around that time I told you guys.

Samantha Snyder [01:01:50] Yeah, you did.

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:52] Yeah. So after I told my mom, I told them that I was.

Samantha Snyder [01:01:54] I think you told me, and I told Connor.

Tanner Gilliland [01:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] The one thing that I just have to say is, you tried so hard.

Samantha Snyder [01:02:05] He really did.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] How many years were you, like, really in this battle?

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:11] Probably, like, two years, but it was the last year that was just six hours a day, constantly studying, constantly reading scriptures, praying, doing everything. But, you know, for the last couple years, you know, from the time I first started having these kind of abstract, uninformed doubts that was really just trying to do the best that I possibly could.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] I mean, thousands of hours, right?

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:37] I don't, I'm not good at math. I really tried.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] How do you think about how hard you tried and how much time and energy you put into trying to figure this out? How do you, when you look back now, what do you think about all that?

Tanner Gilliland [01:02:57] In the end, it was a self fulfilled prophecy. When I said, I don't want to end up like John Dehlin, you know, all these people who all they all. You tried so hard to figure it out and Grant Palmer tried so hard to figure it out and Tom Phillips tried so hard to figure it out. And in the end we figured it out. It wasn't the answer that we wanted. And I look back and I think it was weird because once I stopped studying, I didn't know what to do with my time. I was just kind of like, what do normal people do? Because I don't watch tv. Like, do I start watching tv? Do I go on hikes, start painting? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] What do you do if you don't obsess about Mormon?

Tanner Gilliland [01:03:39] Really? Really?

John Dehlin [01:03:40] You start a podcast, that's what you do.

Tanner Gilliland [01:03:45] But I look back and I don't know, it's.

John Dehlin [01:03:49] Are you angry? Are you resentful?

Tanner Gilliland [01:03:51] About the time I spent studying, yeah, everything.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] How hard you fought trying to get answers and make it work.

Tanner Gilliland [01:04:00] I don't think because I'm a person who, when I'm in, I'm in all the way. And so I was never a lukewarm member of the church. And so I felt like, like the only way I could ever be justified leaving is if I had actually done the due diligence. So looking back, I'm not. I don't regret it because I know that I could never just leave unless I was sure. And I feel sure and, you know, maybe someday I'll be proven wrong. That doesn't seem likely. But I'm fully confident for myself that what I'm doing is okay and is justified in what I need to do. So I don't regret the time necessarily. There are some times where you look back on your life and you feel, I know, you feel kind of robbed just because my whole identity was Mormonism, everything I ever wanted to be was a Mormon. And not just a Mormon, but like a stellar Mormon. And so leaving, I've really, it's been a process of trying to rebuild my life and figure out who I really am. You know, comedy. I've always really just loved making people laugh. As an active Mormon, I was scared to do that, even though I did, you know, occasionally I did stand up comedy and things. But, you know, I was always scared about loud laughter, even from the time I was a kid where I'd feel guilty about it. I remember what did you tell me that one time you're like, you need to do more comedy. And I was like, no, I can't do comedy.

Samantha Snyder [01:05:32] He's really good at satire. And he went through this phase where he said he couldn't do satire right now because you have to be in a certain mindset that isn't very spiritual to do satire. Like, look at things in that. Anyway. Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:05:45] So, you know, stuff like that. Things that are like an inherent part of who I am that I just was always trying to repress so I could be the perfect Mormon. And so now it's like, okay, well, who am I actually without Mormonism? And what is important to me? And what meaning am I going to ascribe to things? And what do I actually like doing with my time? And I don't know. So sometimes. And sometimes you feel, like I said, kind of robbed when, you know, you used to have this idea of an eternal family and you used to have all these wonderful meanings that all these significance that these things had, and now they don't exist anymore. I look back and think, I wish I didn't get set up like that. But you know what? That's life. And everyone gets ruined by some system. You just gotta buck up. It's not the worst one. I feel much better off than a lot of people, so I don't really complain about it.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] So, Samantha, how did. How did this lead to you?

Samantha Snyder [01:06:47] So obviously I was already. When Tanner left, I was still, you know, the Denver Snuffer stage was like the final stage for me. But little did I know. I mean, I thought my spirituality was like, just beginning with Denver Snuffer. I was like, oh, I finally understand all this deep doctrine. So the day Tanner told me he left, I kind of had suspicions. Like, I think we'd said, you know, me, Connor and Tana had been at our house the night before and we, like, had a prayer together before he left. And I didn't think that Tanner had said Amy in at the end. I wish. And I'm just like, kind of a hypersensitive person to things, like, you know, anything really. And so I was like, Tana didn't see how I'm in. Like, what does this Mean, so I texted him about it, and I think he just said, like, oh, I said it quietly. I don't even know what he said, but he gave some excuse. So when he told me the next day he was leaving, I was actually on. I was off work for this summer because I was waiting for my visa, so I had a lot of free time. Um, and so when Tana told me that, I was just. I mean, that was just a really hard day because I thought if someone who tried that hard and was that good, because I felt like I tried hard. But Tana was like, I don't know. He was just so kind in situations where I wouldn't, you know, really struggle to be kind. Just things like that. Like, he just was everything I felt like someone, like, should be, or at least at this point, like, not that I think it was perfect, but. So I thought, if he can't get an answer, then, like, what hope is there for me? Like, why couldn't he get an answer? Like, that was, like, the main thing. So it's not like he told me he was leaving, and I thought, well, I'm leaving, too, because I. Contrary to how this might all sound, like, I was never just following Tanner, you know, he was just teaching.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] Sounds like you were, though.

Samantha Snyder [01:08:32] I know, but it's like he was teaching me things, and I. You know, I'm, like, somewhat of an intellectual, and. And so when I. When I hear things, I think about them. And so the obvious.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] You're just letting him do the work for you?

Samantha Snyder [01:08:44] Yeah, basically. I mean, I don't want to spend six hours a day reading Mormon doctrine. Like, I was engaged. But, yeah, I just. You know, there's an obvious conclusion you reach when presented with a lot of this information. And so I was reaching it.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] So what is that conclusion? What's obvious?

Samantha Snyder [01:09:00] Well, this is crap.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] Why eventually, what are the pillars of. Of crap hood?

Samantha Snyder [01:09:06] I mean, you know, why are there four different versions of the first vision? One like that are completely different. You know, things like that like those keep going, oh, gosh. The book of Abraham was a huge one for me. I was like, if we have the papyri and they don't, and every Egyptologist out there has looked at them and said, this is nothing to do with Abraham. And Joseph Smith said, this is a translation of these papyri. We're really playing fast and loose with the word translation when we're saying that this was, like, a vehicle for him to get inspiration for this scripture, you know, book of Abraham. I just remember that being a really, like really a stone in my face and see a stone to the face and what's some other ones? I mean the, the very last one I remember like polygamy is a big thing for everyone. Like no one is really okay with Joseph marrying a nearly 15 year old girl. But until you completely expose yourself to all the information around that you can kind of pass it off. And I remember the, the day I decided to leave the church which I think was like a month and a half after 10amonth it felt like a long time but you know, probably a month on that day that was like the first day I let myself look at more think because like Tanner I didn't want to look at anything anti.

Tanner Gilliland [01:10:27] And during this time I was, I was refusing to talk.

Samantha Snyder [01:10:30] Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean I would sometimes still go to Tanner and he would give me like the faith promoting answers. I was like hey, how can I resolve this concern? And he'd be like oh go look at this on fair Mormon. Like he wasn't just trying to.

Tanner Gilliland [01:10:41] I don't think I ever referred you to fair Mormon.

Samantha Snyder [01:10:43] Yeah, okay.

Tanner Gilliland [01:10:46] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [01:10:46] But yeah, I mean he would give me resources like on oh because the first day when I found out he left I went to Starbucks and read all this Terrell given stuff, you know like letter to a doubter and things like that and that. Like it was like the best thing I could have read but it just still wasn't like that satisfying. It's like this doesn't really make me feel any better. It's just like okay, so there are some intellectual people who still believe this. But how like someone tell me how. I don't want to just like know that there are a handful of people who do. I want to know how this is possible. I lost my trail of thought here.

Why Mormon Millennials Are Leaving

John Dehlin [01:11:18] So. So you're so Mormon.

Samantha Snyder [01:11:20] Think.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [01:11:21] So the very last day, the month later I don't. Oh it's. It began because a friend of mine who's actually a missionary in my homeworld years ago he didn't teach me but he was like there when I was there. He. I didn't know he left the church or anything but he posted some status on Facebook saying just a question for Mormons. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious. If Mormons are against moral relativism as we always hearing conference then why are we okay with say Joseph marrying a 14 year old girl but we're not okay with Warren Jeffs doing that. Is that not moral relativism? And just even though I I mean, honestly, the whole month I'd been thinking the church probably isn't true, but I had that speck of hope because I kind of had to, because, you know, I was married to an active Mormon whose entire family, back to pioneer days, was a Mormon. So, yeah, when I. When I read that, I was like, you know what? Like, I completely agree with this. Like, this is. It just was. It just kind of clicked, like, this is obviously not true. And so I started messaging that friend and was kind of like, told him a bit of my situation and kind of didn't really know that that was where I was at yet. He thought. We kind of thought we'd got over the Denver snuff because the Denver snuffer phase stressed us out a bit. So we kind of thought we'd gone. Even though we still subscribe to those ideas, we kind of thought we were more mainstream church again by this point, by just kind of ignoring things. So, yeah, when I was talking to this friend, I just realized that I really didn't believe this stuff anymore. And then the next day, I let myself read Mormon Think for the first time. And the page I read was something about Joseph Smith's polygamy. And it was just all these different quotes and different sources. And Mormonthink is good because it kind of just lists a lot of different sources and it will give some commentary, but the whole goal isn't to spin a particular narrative. It just kind of lists what we know. And so reading that, I was just. I took my garments off and wore short shorts to Chilies, and that was that.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] And tried to get a margarita, tried

Samantha Snyder [01:13:21] to get a margarita, failed, didn't have the id.

Tanner Gilliland [01:13:24] So when we go back to church, eventually we'll write a letter to the

Samantha Snyder [01:13:28] Ensign and tell them about how if we ever come back, we have a great testimony because on the day I decided to leave the church and get a margarita, as refused one so that God cared enough about to supply something.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] So membership status at this point, Tanner,

Tanner Gilliland [01:13:45] I'm still on record.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] Okay.

Tanner Gilliland [01:13:47] I don't know for how long.

John Dehlin [01:13:49] Okay.

Samantha Snyder [01:13:50] And Samantha, I think I'm resigned. But they really. They mess you around a lot when you try and resign.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] So who knows you've tried to resign.

Samantha Snyder [01:13:59] Right. So I emailed them and said, you know, let me resign. And they said, oh, it's an ecclesiastical matter. And I was like, well, I know that's not true because I've looked into the of this, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] But you haven't gotten Your letter yet?

Samantha Snyder [01:14:09] Haven't got my letter yet.

John Dehlin [01:14:10] Okay. All right. And so transitioning to this theme of millennials, do you guys think this. Do you think that what you're experiencing is common? Do you think it's. It's a wave? Do you think you're exceptions to the rule? To what extent are. Are you guys representative of what's going on with Mormon millennials? What's your thought?

Samantha Snyder [01:14:40] It's kind of hard to say almost, because we know that people are leaving the church more. You know, there's less active Mormons every year. But it doesn't. Even though I know that people are struggling with these things, it doesn't seem like tons of people are super, you know, into studying the intellectual stuff side of all this. That's what it feels like to me, even though there are people.

Tanner Gilliland [01:15:05] I was surprised, though. On 6 July, I came out publicly on Facebook. I said, you know, I wrote up a post that said, I love being a Mormon, but it's not. I'm no longer affiliated with the church. I guess I'm technically on record. And after I posted that, and since then, I got tons, tons of messages from people from, like, every point in my life. Homeward mission, byu, Idaho, saw, like, everybody, or not everybody, but, you know, people from my whole life who would message me and be like, hey, I have doubts about these things too, and. Or, hey, I left the church a year ago and didn't tell anyone, or, hey, hey, can you talk me through some of these issues? And I was really surprised at how many people my age and others as well, who are really struggling with these kinds of things. And so I think. I think our generation, because of the Internet, we're just exposed to so much more. Kind of like how the general authorities talk about pornography. Like, back in our day, you had to go into the west side of town and dig into a dumpster. And that's how you found a pornographic magazine. Well, I feel like that's how, like, anti Mormon literature was for them, too. Like, you had to go to some janky library and find a Fawn Brody book. But, like, today, it's, you know, it's one click and you're at the CES letter. This. Maybe that's why they call it spiritual pornography. I don't know. But it's there and it's available, and more and more people are speaking up about it. And so I feel like we are going to see a continuous. I think more millennials are leaving than any other age, demographic, or time period in the church. And I think we'll continue to see an even higher exit rate as more information becomes more available and as people, you know, like us millennials, are leaving and making that known instead of just kind of quick, you know, silently slipping away, just saying, hey, I don't. I'm not standing for this.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] Why not just stay quiet and quietly, quietly slip away? Why? Why do this podcast? Why make a Facebook post? Why? I mean, you were ap. You could come from a faithful family. You were, you know, you were a model to a lot of people. And now you're, like, totally, you know, speaking out against what means a lot to a lot of people. Why?

Tanner Gilliland [01:17:53] For me, this came down to a conversation. My friend Greg. Sorry if you didn't want your name mentioned.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] Greg.

Tanner Gilliland [01:18:02] Greg. Right before I made the post, I wasn't planning on doing it. He was saying the weekend at my house, and he was telling me his experience, and we were just talking about the experience of different people in the church, some people who are very hurt by the church. And my plan, as we were talking, was just to kind of like, stay under the radar, not go to church, obviously. But, you know, I had. I had made posts. For example, I made one when gay marriage was legalized. And all these people were, you know, there was that big outcry. Members of the church like, oh, the country's going to pot. I was like, or, you know, we have to defend God's traditional family. And I'm like, well, let's look at the Bible. How many traditional families can we pick out here? Our slaves, Traditional families. Our polygamy is polygamy, traditional family, you know, all these different situations. So is, you know, one man, one woman, really, the traditional marriage, Are we being hypocrites when we call that? So you just kind of posting these kind of questions to get people thinking. That was my plan, to just kind of keep doing it subtly. And as I was talking with Greg, he said, you know, so much of what the church has done wrong is trying to hide the truth and trying to be sneaky about things. That's why we don't like apologetics, because so often it's so sneaky and manipulative. And he said, I think you would influence people a lot more if you just would be authentic and let them know where you're at, because basically, you can't fight dishonesty with dishonesty by pretending to be something you're not. So it wasn't just about. Just about being authentic, but about the fact that there are people who are suffering. The church I think gays primarily really, really struggle. And you know that from your studies, your doctorate work, that LGBTQ members of the church, for the most part, have a really, really difficult time. And single mothers and minorities and even people like, who just have. Who are psychologically hurt by the church and don't even know because they're so caught up in the narrative that they don't realize that they're being psychologically abused. And I look back and I think some of the stuff that, you know, I thought the way I thought was really psychologically, emotionally, very unhealthy. And sometimes, I mean, I. Sometimes I use the term spiritual terrorism that's waged on people, and I can't in good conscience not speak up while those things are happening. So I thought I can either be. Be silent to not hurt the feelings of the people who want to remain in ignorance, or I can speak up and make those people uncomfortable, because it does make them uncomfortable in the hopes of defending these people who are. Or also, you know, people who have doubts, who are being marginalized, people who are being excommunicated for asking questions or starting podcasts or doing whatever may. Doing whatever it is, raising legitimate questions. These people deserve a voice, and they deserve. And they're only doing. They're doing these things over legitimate things. So I can't be silent to defend ignorance. It's like, well, let's talk about these things, and if you want to disagree, that's fine, but I can't be quiet about it.

John Dehlin [01:21:30] So, Samantha, you. I mean, I think about you as a British 14, 15 year old. It's. It sounds like as soon as the gospel came into your life, your life kind of blossomed. I mean, I would wonder. I would think about some of your friends who were not LDs back when you were 14 or 15, where they are now. Maybe they're not. Maybe they are, but maybe they're not as educated, maybe they're not as healthy, maybe they're not as happy. I don't know. But, I mean, when I hear both of you talk about your times at BYU Idaho, it was amazing. It was incredible. So, like, what are you doing?

Samantha Snyder [01:22:07] Like, well, I mean, the obvious.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] You're betraying all that goodness that has blessed your life, honestly.

Samantha Snyder [01:22:15] Am I?

John Dehlin [01:22:15] Are you?

Samantha Snyder [01:22:18] So, first of all, I mean, even if that were the case, I. Truth is more important. Like, I know I could have stayed, and at the time, it maybe seemed more peaceful and happy to stay, but, you know, I was. I joined the church because I thought it was true. I didn't join the church just to be blessed, you know, and I very much like, while I was a Mormon, didn't, didn't like that attitude of like, you do things to be blessed. And even though we all do that to a certain extent, like I wanted to do things because they were the right thing and because, you know, like Tana said, like, I'm very all in if I'm gonna do something, like if I think something's right, I'm gonna do that to the best of my ability. And this, I mean, this is definitely not me bolstering myself up because I'm not, you know, I'm nothing special, but like it, everything I got from the church that was great, I still have, like, I'm not walking away. I mean, yeah, I'm leaving behind some nice ideologies, but like those things were always just thoughts anyway. You know, stuff like eternal families. Like I have a family right now, I just maybe don't have the thought of whether I have a future eternal family. Is this making sense?

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [01:23:34] So, you know, I going back to, you know, when I was 16, 17, you know, if you expose a 16, 17 year old to a religion where you don't drink, you work hard in school, you're nice to people, you, you know, those are just great life principles. Like most people's lives are going to improve if they apply those principles. And you know, I'm like a 16 year old with enough discipline to fast for 24 hours. Like, you know that, that really sets you up in life to do good things because, you know, it's teaching you a lot of self discipline and a lot of great things. And I think all the great qualities I learned from Mormonism, I can absolutely still live because I mean, me and Tana always say what's, you know, what's good about the church is not unique and what's unique isn't necessarily good. And I think that that's really true. And I'm definitely not someone who can stay silent. And I really, really dislike the mentality of Mormons. And I know I used to say this too, so I mean, I get it. But to say why can't ex Mormons just leave the church alone? Like, why can't they just walk away, not talk about it? Like, why are they always so bitter? And the first thing I would say is, well, bitterness is a really natural reaction to grieving, like thinking you've been deceived by this thing that was your whole life. But that aside, like, as a woman, you're taught to stand up for truth. And so when I was a Mormon, I stood up for what I thought was true. And so now I still want to stand up for what I think is true.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] So what is your message to Mormon millennials?

Samantha Snyder [01:25:11] Don't live by fear.

Tanner Gilliland [01:25:13] Don't live in fear. I guess it would depend on the millennial that I'm talking to, because really, like, I care about people's happiness. I'm not out to, like, pull people away from the church. Like I said, why not?

John Dehlin [01:25:24] It's not true.

Tanner Gilliland [01:25:26] Because for you. Yeah, well, in the end, I don't think it matters. Like, I don't believe in an afterlife. And so, you know, once you die, that's it. And so if a person is happy in the church, then why not be happy in the church? But I am all about not drinking the Kool Aid. So when your activity in the church begins damaging other people, that's when I say, okay, let's talk about these beliefs and these actions and, you know, evaluate them. So I encourage people to not be afraid to study things out and make decisions for themselves that they are. You're allowed to think for yourself. I think there are a lot of dangerous doctrines and teachings in the church. For instance, the follow the prophet mentality I think is dangerous because what you're doing is you're putting your immorality and the control over your life and your decisions in the hand of another person who, historically.

Samantha Snyder [01:26:35] Yeah. Been wrong.

Tanner Gilliland [01:26:35] Chop people's heads off and deny the blacks the priesthood and sleep with wives and sleep with teens and commit genocide and all these things that.

John Dehlin [01:26:43] It's like you're saying bad things prophets have done historically.

Samantha Snyder [01:26:46] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:26:47] So I'm saying you should never, you know, trust any other person to dictate your morality and your conscience so you can be free to think for yourself and. And also you don't have to be afraid. I didn't realize how afraid I was. In the church, you always, you see, you know, you're on YouTube and watching some Mormon message, and on the side, you see this, like, why so many people are leaving the church, or like, 10 secrets, 10 secrets the Mormons don't want you to know. And you're full of fear all the time. You're afraid of what your bishop is going to think about this or that, or you're afraid of, you know, not being the perfect Mormon. You're afraid of what's going to happen if I go a day without reading my scriptures. And not living with fear is just an amazing thing. So not being afraid of information, like, if I Think that that quote is perfect, that if we have the truth, then we shouldn't be afraid to harm it. Like, if we have. If the church is true, then it should bear investigation, and if it's not, it's better to find out. And so you don't have to be afraid of that. Also that there are.

John Dehlin [01:28:01] The quote says the church deserves to be harmed. If it's.

Tanner Gilliland [01:28:04] Yeah. If it's not true, it deserves.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] Yeah. One of those guys.

Samantha Snyder [01:28:11] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:28:12] So, yeah, just don't be afraid. And there's. I wish I had known, like, more people who were in the same place I was. And that's another reason for speaking out, is so that the people who are struggling can know that there are other people out there. Because for so long I felt so alone that there's no one I can go to with my problems because I don't know anyone who's left the church and I don't know anyone who's had these difficulties and has made it through. So just know that there are people there. I mean, there's people like Richard Bushman who, you know, know the controversial stuff from Joseph Smith and still believe. So I say that. I say, you know, don't be afraid of investigating. Just because I went this way doesn't mean you will. There are people who make it work. But don't be. If. Don't let your fear of ending up like me or. Or you stop you from learning, because you should never be afraid of the truth, no matter where it takes you.

Samantha Snyder [01:29:06] Yeah.

Tanner Gilliland [01:29:07] Yeah.

Samantha Snyder [01:29:07] Life can go any, any direction. And I think living authentically is like, your only anchor, really. And just another thing I was going to say is because I read. I read something yesterday about. By a Mormon, just a blog post saying how the reason ex Mormons can't leave the church alone is because, you know, they've chosen this sinful direction now. And so they need to reassure themselves constantly, like, yeah, Joseph was a fraud, like all that. And I. And I just. I mean, that was just so, so, so wrong. And I was reading it cringing because it's just so. Shows so much misunderstanding for ex Mormons. And I would love it if Mormons and ex Mormons could, like, could bridge that gap because it doesn't need to be there.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] Why is that a misunderstanding?

Samantha Snyder [01:29:51] Because, I mean, I absolutely. I mean, I don't feel any guilt. I don't feel like I'm sinning. Like, I don't think I'm a sinner because I don't want to accept. Accept a man who married his Foster kids, as a prophet. And that's kind of what. It's so obvious. But that's kind of what I wish people would understand. Like, if you think that it was wrong for this man who was 36 to marry a 14 year old, then you can think that that's wrong. Like, you are not the bad person for thinking that that's wrong. But you can, you know, people can tell you like, oh, no, but it's complicated. Like we weren't there, we don't understand, but like the facts is that he married a 14 year old. And if you're not okay with that, then don't be okay with that. Like, don't let them make you okay with that and tell you that you're the sinner because it's ridiculous when you step away from it. And I hope I don't insult anyone by saying that. But yeah, for a long time you feel like guilty for not accepting things that are against the very morals the church teaches. You know, like honesty and, you know, not killing people and things like that. So you're not a bad person if you don't agree with those things.

Reflections on Life After the Church

John Dehlin [01:30:52] So in spite of all the joy the church has brought you, how do you feel about leaving it?

Samantha Snyder [01:31:00] Pretty good.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] Why?

Samantha Snyder [01:31:02] I mean, obviously I don't want to downplay how difficult it is to leave the church, but I mean, the euphoria that I had when I realized, like, this isn't true and I'm gonna leave it to be authentic, was absolutely comparable to the joy I felt when I thought, oh, this church is true, I'm gonna join it. You know, like, if you feel like you've discovered something that gives you inner peace, that you feel euphoria and like, that's not the spirit in my mind, like, that's just a normal human thing. And what was the question?

John Dehlin [01:31:32] So are you glad? Are you glad you've left or how do you feel about leaving?

Samantha Snyder [01:31:37] I mean, I'm glad because I would, you know, rather live truth.

John Dehlin [01:31:42] Even if it's hard.

Samantha Snyder [01:31:43] Yeah, and it is hard, and no one can say otherwise, but it's also full of a lot of joys you don't expect.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] Is it more good than hard or more hard than good?

Tanner Gilliland [01:31:56] I. Life is pretty much.

Samantha Snyder [01:31:59] Life is a lot of things. I think that your happiness, even though the process of leaving is absolutely awful. I think your happiness, you know, as an adjusted member, as an adjusted ex member, is quite similar because even as a member you have all these problems. You know, life's never perfect, but I mean, it feels really nice being able to watch a TED Talk on the origins of the universe and why we exist and not be, like, stressed out. Like, how does this fit in? Like, this scientific data fit in with, like, my tiny little box that of beliefs. It's kind of nice. It's freeing. Your mind is free to explore and learn, and I like that.

Tanner Gilliland [01:32:35] That's been the most beautiful thing for me is I felt for so long, I was just doing all these, you know, mental gymnastics of having to, like, twist everything into this nuanced understanding to make it work. And I was afraid of approaching different understandings and things because maybe they didn't fit. And I love just being able to say, like, I can just study anything I want, and I can accept truth based on evidence, and I don't have to believe something that just shouldn't make sense. And so I love, you know, I love listening to Richard Dawkins talk and, you know, the way he explains things. And I just think, like, this is the same, like, spiritual rush that I'd feel listening to General Conference back in the day. I feel that same thing now. And, yeah, it's just. It's wonderful. But it does definitely comes with its challenges. There's good days and bad days.

Closing Thoughts and Final Testimonies

John Dehlin [01:33:24] All right. All right. So you guys know how we end more stories, right?

Samantha Snyder [01:33:28] How do you end Mormon stories?

Tanner Gilliland [01:33:30] With a dance routine?

John Dehlin [01:33:31] Well, we have three prepared jazz hands. Give us jazz hands, Samantha. No

Samantha Snyder [01:33:40] more of a snap.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] All right, so who wants to go first? Sort of bear your. Your non testimony of what's. What's true for you. And if there's. Let's just say there's some people out there going through the same struggle that you guys went through of trying to figure things out. What do you want to say to kind of close?

Tanner Gilliland [01:34:02] I'm hesitant to say I know about anything, but I believe that people are basically good. And I believe that there's. That love is what makes life meaningful and that relationships are important. And I don't believe that there is meaning in every little thing, but I think that we can ascribe great meaning to a lot of things. And I believe that the earth was not flooded. I don't know. I think the world is good and that there's a lot of beauty in it and that we don't have to be afraid to follow truth and that we don't have to be afraid of things that maybe make us uncomfortable. And I don't know. This has kind of been a cool experience because in making yourself vulnerable in a way of expressing doubt, or things, you really connect with people. And I think that vulnerability is the heart of love. And so to anyone else who's going through faith struggles or any kind of struggles, I think reaching out and just letting someone know and connecting with people who have been there, who are going through that or who may go through that, I think is a really rewarding and enriching thing. I think the biggest difference in my life is that I actually care a lot more about people since leaving, because before I was kind of like, I have all eternity to build friendships, but now I feel like I have some 80 years on this rock to build some meaningful relationships. And so I'm gonna do that right now. And I want to love people for who they are and not for, you know, what Mormon they could make in the future. In the name of John Dehlin.

Samantha Snyder [01:36:05] Samantha, bring us home to what Tana said. Bring us home. First thing I would say is, if anyone's watching this and is struggling, you can reach out to me on any social media platform you choose, because I know how lonely the journey is.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] How do they reach you?

Samantha Snyder [01:36:20] There's that. They can follow me on Twitter and send me a message or whatever you want.

Tanner Gilliland [01:36:25] The Sam spo.

Samantha Snyder [01:36:26] The Sam SPO. Do not apply for Twitter. Phone

John Dehlin [01:36:31] SPO yeah, okay.

Samantha Snyder [01:36:34] But anyway, yeah, what Tana said, like, maybe life is meaningless and we should all just eat at Arby's. But I think that life does have meaning because we make it. And there's, you know, there's really no guarantees with religion as much as we, you know, have always said. We know. But, like, life is guaranteed because it's right here, right now. And. And so I just think about people who are putting themselves through so much misery for something that may or may not be true, even if to them it's a really firm, like, probably is true, and they're missing out on what is 100% true right now, which is the fact that you exist and you deserve to have happiness.

Tanner Gilliland [01:37:17] So, yeah, and it gets better. It's hard.

Samantha Snyder [01:37:21] It gets better.

Tanner Gilliland [01:37:22] It's really, really hard. When you're in the tunnel, the rabbit hole, and it all seems dark, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and you do come out of it, and you do feel good, because that's the biggest concern. If you're scared of ending up like John Dehlin or Grant Palmer or any of those guys, it's. It's terrifying to think about. But once you actually get there, you think the world isn't as bad as they told me it would be. And it's not as scary as they told me it would be. And I'm not as broken as they told me when would be. I'm myself and I feel good.

Samantha Snyder [01:37:55] You don't have to worry about, like, a plague of locusts killing you in 30 years or moving to a tank.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:00] It's always on my mind.

Samantha Snyder [01:38:01] It's always on my mind. Yeah, the whole doomsday stuff is nice to kind of be away from.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] All right, Tanner, so if folks want to follow you or connect with you, any URL or anything you want to

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:13] put them to or I'm not as social media savvy. TGillilin789 on Twitter.

Samantha Snyder [01:38:18] Actually, we'll link it in the down bar. No link Twitter.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:21] I don't. Twitter's not really like my religious place. Maybe Facebook. Tanner Gilliland, shoot me a message.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] But you are. You do have a YouTube channel.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:31] Do have a YouTube channel with one video.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] What's it called?

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:33] It's called Zelf on the Shelf. Okay, so we've got our one video, and we'll hopefully be making a lot more soon.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] And I think we're gonna show that poem at the beginning of the first episode of this podcast, so.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:44] Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [01:38:44] So folks can check that out there.

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:47] Awesome.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] And Samantha, folks want to follow you.

Samantha Snyder [01:38:50] Yeah, you should all go follow whatsoever is good on Facebook. And if anyone wants to write anything about goodness and happiness, then get in

Tanner Gilliland [01:38:58] touch because we're still about getting good. Yeah, we want to the world.

Samantha Snyder [01:39:01] We want to keep that up, share goodness.

John Dehlin [01:39:04] All right, well, it's been a pleasure to get to. Don't you guys Sort of off camera. And it's been a real honor to have you on Mormon Stories. So Tanner Gilliland and Samantha Snyder, John de Lynn, thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories. I love it. And listeners, please join us@mormonstories.org if you have comments or feedback for Tanner and Samantha, please please join us in there. Thanks for all your support to help make Mormon Stories possible, and we look forward to providing you more wonderful interviews like this. So thanks again, everybody.

Tanner Gilliland [01:39:44] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] All right, Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.com music for this episode was provided by the lower lights.

Tanner Gilliland [01:40:14] When with the wounded heart, anger or malice, I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.