Introducing Tani Berlo and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host for today, John Dehlin. It is November 8, 2022, and today I am super excited to be sharing with you a human who, if you're on TikTok, you may know about her account is known as Tawny Burlo. I believe that's how you pronounce it. She is a tiktoker with almost a million followers who does TikTok videos about human history. But it also turns out that Tawny Berlo was raised in the LDS Church, and not only was she raised in the LDS Church, she is of Maori descent and she lives in Australia. And just recently we did an episode about Australia. But more importantly, we are always looking to capture kind of the Mormon and the post Mormon experience of people all over the world. And, and Tani reached out to me a couple years ago, a year or two ago, and it's taken me a while to get back with her, but as her TikTok channel and YouTube channel have been skyrocketing in prominence, I've had more and more people reaching out to me saying that I should interview Tani. And it was only recently that Tani came out herself on her TikTok channel as having been raised in the Mormon Church. In addition to being brilliant, you know, Tawny's got what I believe is going to be a really epic Mormon story now, not only about being raised as a woman of color in the LDS Church in Australia, but she will also have much to say about growing up with the church's kind of purity culture, with the youth program, and of course, matters of faith and even of mixed faith. So without any further ado, Tawny Berlo, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Tani Berlo [00:01:45] Hello. I'm excited, so excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Yeah. Now, what did I, what did I. Is there anything that I left out of your introduction that I should have included?

Tani Berlo [00:01:55] I think that pretty much sums it up.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And Berlo. Berlo is not your full last name, is that right?

Tani Berlo [00:02:01] No, that's right. Yeah. So Berlowitz is my full last name, which is my husband's last name, which is Polish Jewish. So, yeah, yeah, my maiden name was Caesar, which would have definitely fit my brand. Now more. But nonetheless.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] And how, how would you, just, how would, how would you describe your brand, Tawny? And is it is Tani? I'm not, am I pronouncing it right?

Tani Berlo [00:02:25] Yeah, yeah, no, that's, yeah. So, yeah, I, I am a history lover. I, I, I mainly make content on TikTok. But like you said, I'm moving over to YouTube and Instagram and all of that. But yeah, I have always been a history buff and it was kind of a hobby that I didn't really think anyone would ever be interested in, funnily enough. So I just would keep it to myself. And no one I really know in person loves history like I do. And then I just started posting about it online and realized that, oh, there's actually hundreds of thousands of people that love history like I do. So it was a happy accident, to be honest. I love it. And yeah, my brand's really just me. Like I'm very much an open book and I also have adhd, so I'm chaotic. But I like to think I'm chaotic in a good way, I hope. And also apologies for any animal sounds. I live right next to a to the bush basically we call it here in Australia. So there may be sounds and that is what they are.

Tani's Background and Human History Video

John Dehlin [00:03:46] All right, well, let's go ahead and play. I I've got several videos to play throughout today's episode. They'll have an audio and a video video component to them. But those listening will still be able to get a sense for Tawny's brilliance. But let me go ahead and play the first video. Human history in three minutes. Is that okay, Tawny?

Tani Berlo [00:04:04] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] All right, here we go.

Tani Berlo [00:04:07] This is all of human history in three minutes. I'm going to skip past the multi millions of years that it took us to evolve and start 40000 years ago when last Neanderthals. You're a human, but you're not the only species of human that there ever was. We killed off the others because we had bigger and better sticks. And Homeo sapiens do not like things that are just similar enough but just a little bit too different. If you live in Norway or somewhere like that, you probably still have Neanderthal DNA in your blood. Over the next 20,000 odd years our brains get fat and we become intelligent. We start speaking and making up legends and stories and myths and we move out of the Stone Age and into the Neolithic age. We were building and worshiping things. Gobekli Tepe is 12000 years old and that's the sort of period we're talking about in that section. But skipping forward about 7,000 years. We then enter the agricultural age. This is when we realized we plant seed, water seed, sun seed, and then we get food. We also realized if we put a bunch of animals in pens then we wouldn't have to chase after them all the time. So our diets got better, our brains got fatter and we started to settle down, which turned into towns, then into cities, then into civilizations. We started making up languages, making up writing, speed, started doing hieroglyphs, all sorts of things. Then we move into the ancient history phase, which is about 5,000 years ago. We've got Egypt, we've got Mesopotamia, we've got the Indus, we've got China. They all like lakes and rivers and things because water is important. Mesopotamians start riding on clay tablets, the Egyptians start building pyramids, and then trade begins. Then we move into the Bronze Age. People were, you know, trading, fighting, warring Mycenaeans were there, the Minoans. And then the Bronze Age collapsed, because to have bronze, you need tin and you had to have a tin dealer. And he just like ghosted everyone. There's probably other reasons too. But anyway, don't worry. People came and repopulated the areas. Then we have new societies coming into play and they started doing international trade. That's when the Silk Road started. The Greeks, later, the Romans were, you know, taking charge. The Romans were killing people everywhere. China's still going strong. And then around 500 BCE, we have the Median Empire, which gave way to Iranian empires, the Archimedean empires. We have big civilizations that are in modern day India. And then we have countries like Australia, which were like geographically far away from the action. But we have the first nations, people that were thriving at the time. Then the Romans started getting aggressive, so they ended up ruling all the way from England through to Mesopotamia. And then the Romans sort of had some problems internally, and then some people started shacking in them and they fell. At the same time, you've got China still going strong. Still going strong. Africa's doing a really good job too. Mesopotamia pops up. We've got the Maya civilization, which then turns into the Aztecs. All while Europe's in its Dark Ages. Plague, death, war. You know, China's going through its own stuff at the time too. Then we have the post classical era, the early Muslim conquest, the Islamic Golden Age. China went from the Su, Tang, Song Quan, Ming dynasties. There's a lot. The Silk Road kept going strong. Catholics, war, more war. We have 1500s through to the modern day. The Renaissance comes along. European expansion, AKA colonization, blew each other up. Now you have a handheld computer watching me.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] Oh, that's so good. China's still going strong. I think that's still true. It was fun to watch your facial expressions as you were watching your own video.

Tani Berlo [00:07:20] What was that like, I recorded that, I think like five or six different times to try to get it all in one video. And even watching it back, I was like, oh, that was a mistake. Oh, no, I didn't, didn't really cover that properly.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] I think it's brilliant. Anyway, I just wanted to give our viewers and listeners a sense for how entertaining and thoughtful your videos are, just to start with.

Tani Berlo [00:07:43] Awesome, awesome. Thank you.

Growing Up Mormon in Australia

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Well, you know, let's go ahead and jump in and Tani Burlo, I'm really, I'm really eager to hear where your Mormon story begins.

Tani Berlo [00:07:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] All right.

Tani Berlo [00:07:55] Well, basically I was raised, I think I was sealed to my parents when I was six weeks old. So my mom and dad are converts to the church. They both had very hard upbringing. So there were. Both of my parents experienced abuse and alcoholism and a myriad of other hardships in their upbringing. And then they met when they were both bartenders at a casino in South Australia. And obviously the both of them coming from alcoholic environments, they didn't want to have kids together if they were going to raise them the way that they were raised. And then came along Mormon missionaries and the whole, you know, abstinence from alcohol, the idea that families could be together forever and that, I guess, urge for my mum and dad to break the chain of the abusive history of their parents and grandparents etc. Yeah. Led them into Mormonism and they were baptized. And my dad tells the story that my mum came to him in the kitchen when he was just setting up their brand new coffee machine and she said, I'm going to get baptized. What are you going to do? And he just sighed and he's like, let me just have this coffee because this is a brand new machine. But yeah, they got baptized and a year later they got married in the temple or sorry, sealed in the temple. And that's when I came along. And from there I, I had two younger sisters, so there was three of us.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Well, around, around what year were your parents converted to the church?

Tani Berlo [00:09:56] They were probably. They would have converted in 1993.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay.

Tani Berlo [00:10:00] And then they would have sealed in 1994. So yeah, after the 90s, after all the sort of temple reforms and things. So.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] And what, what was the temple. What was the temple have been that they got sealed in?

Tani Berlo [00:10:16] They got sealed in, I believe the Hamilton Temple. Or was it Hamilton or Sydney?

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Okay, so one of the, one of the Australian temples.

Tani Berlo [00:10:26] Yeah, Hamilton is a New Zealand temple.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Oh, okay. Sorry, I.

Tani Berlo [00:10:32] Or I think it might have been Sydney. I can't quite remember either.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Either New Zealand or Australia?

Tani Berlo [00:10:37] Yeah, either New Zealand or Sydney. But yeah, so yeah, they were sealed and then my. So my dad was a saturation diver. That was his career for 20 plus years.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] What does that mean?

Tani Berlo [00:10:55] Yeah, in and of itself is a very interesting topic. So saturation diving is basically, I like to describe it as an inverted astronaut. So they live in bells, pressurized bells, under the ocean, kilometers under the ocean for up to 30 days in like a set of nine guys. And they basically, yeah, live at this pressurized level and work on welding things like very, very, very deep under the ocean. It's pretty horrifying to be completely honest. But that's what he did for a living, which meant that he was away up to sort of three months at a time and then would come home for about a month. So in and out working dad and mum was stay at home, mom with us three girls. So yeah, that's what he did for work. And then we were raised very much. I, I reflect back on my mom being essentially a solo parent. Not that she had to work obviously because of my dad's profession, but she was raising us three girls. She had no idea about Mormon culture because she was a convert. So she was just doing her best. But we grew up very much. We didn't miss church, even if we were sick. We didn't miss any events, we didn't miss a day of youth, we didn't miss a day of seminary. And so, yeah, that's just how my, my mom is a very stoic person. So she, she, yeah, she definitely was. No, we're committed to this. We're doing this kind of thing. Which in turn meant that my church leaders in the small ward that I grew up in, very, very Polynesian heavy ward as well. So my leaders were very, very, very much a part of the experience that I had. The, I guess the, not necessarily the doctrine, but the doctrine according to the particular leaders that I had was very heavily, was my influence. And. Yeah. Which was interesting to say the least. And I then, yeah, went through all the programs, went through youth, went through seminary, went through institute.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] Let me ask you really quick, Toddy, if it's okay? Yeah. Okay. So your dad was gone a lot. Your mom wasn't raised Mormon. So she would have just been doing the best she could. Church was normal. Did you have any of those, those normal things like family prayer, family scripture study, family home evening. Was that at all a part of your Mormon upbringing?

Tani Berlo [00:14:09] Yeah, very much so. My mom is just such. My mom is a rule keeper like. And so when she implemented everything so we, even when we were kicking and screaming, had family prayer every day, family scripture every day, every week that we had, family home evening. She did her absolute best to keep every single rule that she was learning. Right. Because she's obviously on her own journey to learn all this stuff. And as we grew up we, we were kind of seen as like. My mum faced a lot of judgment herself from the community. One because my dad worked away and that was at least where we grew up, taboo in our ward. People, I don't know, people saw that as very odd. And so she faced a lot of judgment around that and a lot of judgment on the small things. My mum's a very beautiful woman, presents herself very beautifully and I think, I think there was like a lot of jealousy and so people would pick on like the way she would dress and, and that sort of thing. And so she really evolved to, I guess, picking up Mormon culture as we were growing up. I don't know if that sort of answers the question, but sure, she really tried her best to tick those boxes to make sure that she was being the best member that she possibly could be, I think to sort of be an. Being high achiever because she faced that judgment in the community. I think. So she wanted to prove herself to the community. Yeah, I think that answers the question.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Yeah, it does. Do you remember those, let's just say those primary years, those pre adolescent years as being happy years with the church? Did you closely identify as Mormon? Do you remember how your peers thought of you as a Mormon? Or did you keep that quiet? How was, how was that for you?

Tani Berlo [00:16:27] Yeah, so as a kid I remember, I remember loving primary, but I was always a kid that was like wanting to be older than I was. So I remember in primary I just wanted to be in young women so badly. I remember. Yeah, I had a really happy childhood. I, I definitely have worked now through a lot of the, I guess suppressed pain of having my dad away a lot and all of that. But I was a very, my, my personality. I've always wanted, I've always been a high achiever and a bit of a perfectionist in my own way. I was very, I threw myself into the church and was very proud of my, I guess my academic, I don't want to say academic, that's the wrong word. But like I was the top of the class in the seminary class. Like I would win the scripture chases and I was the, I was like the Hermione Granger in, like, in like, you know what I mean? Like, I know the answer I know the answer. And the teachers would always be like, can you let somebody else answer the question, please? Yeah, so very. I'm a very inquisitive sort of person. And now as an adult learning that I have ADHD and hyper fixation, I can see why I was like that as a kid. I also didn't really have the social indicators to shut my mouth because I just say what comes to mind. And so I think as a kid. I think as a kid in the church, I would have probably been quite annoying. And I very much. It was a very interesting dynamic as well because I'm half Maori, half white Australian. A lot of my church friends were full Maori. So to my Maori friends I was the. The white girl. But then to my. Not the white girl, but the half caste, which is. I'm not sure if that's a slur, but it's not here. That's what they say. And then to my white Australian friends, I was the brown girl. So it's weird, you kind of like, as a half. I don't identify as half. I like, they always say it doesn't matter how much milk is in the tea, it's still tea. So. But yeah, it's interesting being sort of not really fitting in either places to

John Dehlin [00:19:25] carry on the Harry Potter metaphor. You were a Mudblood.

Tani Berlo [00:19:28] I was. That's exactly what I was. I was a Mudblood. I was.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] I mean that in all the best of ways, of course. Yeah.

Tani Berlo [00:19:37] 100%. No, I was actually also a massive Harry Potter nerd.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Oh, good, good, good, good.

Tani Berlo [00:19:42] Hermione was like. I just thought she was like the coolest person. And yeah, I was obsessed with her.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] I think. I think Hermione's way cooler than Harry Potter, personally.

Tani Berlo [00:19:53] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] She needed.

Tani Berlo [00:19:55] She needed her own arc, I think.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Yeah.

Tani Berlo [00:19:59] So. And I think I actually, funnily enough, you know, when you're a kid, you sort of look, you have like this sort of stuff matters to you. And I think I loved Hermione so much because I think I saw myself a lot in her in the character. And yeah, a lot of like the things that she would do, I would do impulsively, you know, so that's funny that we're talking about Harry Potter and. But yeah, so that was kind of. And then to finish. Finish answering your question, I was not shy about everyone in Australia. There's not a lot of Mormons. So at my high school, me and my sisters were the only members in about like a 2000, 2000 student high school and funnily. Enough, I went to Catholics High school and yeah, I faced a lot of judgment. Not all bad judgment, some good in a way. But I was known as like the Mormon, you know, so everyone knew and they would pull me up on things when I had a bit of a. So off through high school, from the age of 17 through about 19, I had a very, very rebellious stage, which.

John Dehlin [00:21:24] Before we get there, can I ask you a couple questions?

Tani Berlo [00:21:27] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Okay. Okay. So when we get into your adolescent years, what was, what was your experience like in terms of, let's just say the rules the church taught you, the commandments, the gender roles that the church taught you. And we always like to talk about things like law of chastity and word of wisdom and modesty rules only because they're so formative in most Mormon youths upbringing. Can you, and you could talk about that when you were a faithful, let's just say conservative LDS youth and then we can get into your quote, rebellious years.

Tani Berlo [00:22:12] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I was, I was raised very strictly so. And this is really, I think a reflection on the particular youth leaders because my mom didn't know the rules. So she would, you know, read something like the Strength of Youth handbook and be like, okay, we need to keep every single one of these rules, you know. So I also had very, what I would call extreme leaders in, in seminary and in young women's. So, you know, I was taught probably every day in seminary by a very well meaning beautiful woman, but she had very extreme ideas and she would tell us things like, you know, if you have premarital sex, that's next to murder and you'll be in, you know, the lowest tier of heaven with the murderers, you know, so very extreme modesty was something that me and my sisters were actually really judged on because my mum was a little bit more relaxed with the whole modesty thing. We also grew up on the coast, so we, the beach was a part of our whole upbringing. You know, like we were at the beach most days of the week and so swimwear is a massive part of living on a coastline and my mum did not allow us to wear two pieces and I remember being really, really embarrassed by all of that around my, my, my 13 year old friends when they were all in their bikinis and I, people would point out like, oh, why are you always wearing these ugly Speedos? You know? And yeah, I remember being so embarrassed as a kid, but also torn because I never wanted to wear the two pieces because I wasn't allowed. And it's interesting as well, because a lot of people view the Gold coast where I grew up as a much more flexible. Flexible on the rules, I guess. So then when I sort of started going to efy, which is here in Australia, it's interstate because there's so few members and meeting people from more conservative states like South Australia and Victoria, and then getting judged for what I thought was already ex. Like I thought I was following all the rules. And then I remember little things like people would point out, oh, your shorts are like above your knees or oh my gosh, you're just wearing a one piece. You should be wearing shorts and a T shirt, a baggy T shirt over that. So, yeah, modesty was a big one. And I say me and my sisters because my two younger sisters are absolutely gorgeous. My middle sister is literally a model. And I felt like we were extremely scrutinized when it came to our dress. And I think more so than any, a lot of the other girls were, they would get away with, you know, wearing a singlet, whereas we would be reprimanded for wearing something. And like, you know, if, if I wore a tight skirt, I would get reprimanded at church for that, whereas other girls wearing exactly the same skirt were not. And so that was sort of my experience with modesty. But yeah, chastity very heavily. All of it was very full on.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Okay. Yeah, talk that. Thanks for, thanks for sharing that. Talk about, if you don't mind, you know, once you're hitting ages 12, 13, 14, you start to experience. I, I don't know, I guess you do all the way along, but there's this idea of, to put it kindly, you know, gospel doctrine, teaching or church curriculum, to put it maybe, you know, a little less kindly, indoctrination. And so if you're a thinky, inquisitive girl and. And again, this is all pre. We'll just call it pre rebellion. As you start to be taught about the Book of Mormon, as you're taught about Lamanites and the Dark Skin Curse, as you're taught about Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel and the Global Flood and all the sorts of things that may evolution the types of things that would make a semi aware, inquisitive person start to wonder, or even the atonement and Jesus being killed and resurrected, or Joseph Smith and you hear about polygamy. Like there are all sorts of these entrees into questions that an inquisitive, thoughtful kid might ask. I'm curious if you've got any stories pre rebellion of questions or concerns that might have arose as you start to be educated, indoctrinated 100%. Yes.

Seminary, Strict Youth Culture, and Polynesian Identity

Tani Berlo [00:27:44] This was so. I mean, seminary started at 14. And that was the most. My seminary teacher, absolutely lovely woman, but she. She's a mother. She's had. She had 14 births. Very, very. I don't know how to express, I guess, like, orthodox, but in, like, an extreme way and not really correct. And like her, every single day she would hand out quotes from the book Mormon Doctrine by. What's his name?

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Bruce R. McConkie. Bruce R. McConkie, yes.

Tani Berlo [00:28:27] Every day she would hand out a Bruce R. McConkie quote. I'm not even being hyperbolic, because we had to fill in these scrapbooks, right? And so I have all these scrapbooks with just. Just Bruce Armor Conkie. So that's. My seminary years were pretty much Bruce Armor Conky years. And that rose a lot of questions. I remember in particular, a good story was when I had an argument with my seminary teacher who was. Who was a very, like, she's white, blonde hair, blue eyes. And she was like, now, when the Lamanites, they were promised that if they became righteous, that their skin would. Would lighten. And I remember putting my hand up and being like, right. So as far as I'm aware, as a Polynesian, and all the Polynesians around me believed that they were descendants of Lamanites. So there's. There's a character in the Book of Mormon, Hathor, I believe, and he.

John Dehlin [00:29:30] Hagoth. Is it Hagoth?

Tani Berlo [00:29:33] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] No, no, no. I just want to make sure I got it right.

Tani Berlo [00:29:36] Yeah, no, you're right. That's right. Who was a righteous guy, gets on a boat and he kind of disappears. So a lot of Polynesian Mormons believe that they are descendants of Hagoth. That's what I was taught growing up. So we were treated by the white members. And remember, pretty much like 70% of my ward were also Polynesian. We were treated by the white members as. As laymanites. And that was a very interesting dynamic. And so, you know, my seminary teacher would. Would talk about how, you know, the Nephites were white. And. And I remember this one day, I would have been 14. I was like, no, they wouldn't have been. And she was like, excuse me. And I was like, well, they wouldn't have been because they would have been Native American and they would have been in the sun all day. So wouldn't they be more like my color? Like. Like a bit like, fairer, but, like, not white. And she was like, absolutely not. That is false doctrine. They would have been white like me. And I was like, no, they wouldn't have. They were in the sun all day. They would have gotten sunburned. Like, so just remember, like. And this was like a daily event. I would have, like, questions. And one of my friends love him dearly. He is, he's on the autism spectrum. And so with him and me in a classroom, we honestly put this poor woman through a lot because he would just say, wait, that doesn't make any sense. How could the world have flooded entirely? I don't understand that. And we would just sort of be like, yeah, actually, what is that? Like, before the continent split up. Can you give us a timeline for that? And he got kicked out of seminary. I got to stay, but he got kicked out. So, yeah, every day there was a, there was a. I would be at the front of the class, the rest of the class would be asleep at the back, and I would just be picking this poor woman's brains of like, hang on, that doesn't make any chronological sense, you know, even as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] So let me, let me. If it's okay, let me ask you this. So sometimes this, this teaching about laymanites can cut two ways. On the one hand, you know, white Mormons can kind of look down on the darker skinned Native Americans or Polynesians as kind of inferior. So that can be one way it cuts. Another way it can cut is. It's like, no, they're like holy people that are blood descendants. They're literally blood descendants of the Israelites and they're God's chosen pure blooded people. And let's give them lots of reverence and, and lift them up as sacred. Which was it? Which one of the, which one of it was for you? Or was it both?

Tani Berlo [00:32:40] Yeah, I would say both at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Okay.

Tani Berlo [00:32:44] I think, like, I remember I studied, I studied the. In seminary chronologically. So my first year of seminary was Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon doctrine, Covenants. I remember my seminary teacher would often pull her husband in to, I don't know, give us lectures and things. And yeah, it was an air of like, white saviorism to us Polynesian children. I'll give you a story when I'm obvious. As a kid, I was extremely brown. And as I grew up, I lost a lot of pigment in my skin just naturally because, I don't know, just happened. I don't go outside much, I guess, or wear sunscreen. Now I had the seminary teacher's husband come up to me in the hallway of church and say to me, you must be living so righteously because your countenance is lightning, your skin is getting whiter, which means that you are becoming more righteous. And I was like, oh, thanks, I

John Dehlin [00:33:54] think

Tani Berlo [00:33:57] so that's, yeah, that sort of. Actually that story probably summarizes it. And also I had a lot of leaders that were Polynesian as well. It seemed in my experience to only be a concern of the white members. The Polynesian members couldn't really care much really about that, but the white members always liked to point it out. You know, the Book of Mormon is for the Lamanite people and you are them, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:34] Okay. Anything else you want to share about either your, your family experiences or your Mormon experiences that are kind of important parts of your story prior to, let's just say your rebellious years. Any other parts of your story you want to make sure nad

Tani Berlo [00:34:53] I think like my experience of seminary, I think like it was very full on, like very, very much. Yeah, like I said, if, if you commit sexual sin, you will literally go to hell. You. And it was very, you know, you, you can use the term inoculation. But I very much see my seminary years as very indoctrinating and my young women experience was very much the same. So I was taught things that just aren't doctrine as doctrine, which was an interesting dynamic. So like little things like I remember being taught at like the age of 15, like when you get married, if you don't have a child within the first year, you're sinning because you only got married to have sexual intercourse. And just like very extreme ideas like that were what my leaders just believed to be doctrine. They're obviously not, but. And that was a very interesting dynamic because my parents in the home never taught us anything like that. They thought those ideas were silly and, and they were just trying to learn, I guess, along the way. So sometimes my mom would be like, wait, what? You were taught that? Oh, I don't know, didn't know that, you know, that sort of thing. So the other thing is that I definitely my parents, my parents gave a very healthy view of the church, but because I was a very high achieving child, it was the programs and the particular leaders that I had that I think that I learned more from. And that's where I picked up a lot of the internal issues with shame around a lot of things. And yeah, it was a, it's an interesting dynamic. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't blame my parents at all because they, they did actually provide that healthy balance. But I just was exposed more on a day to day basis to my leaders than I was even my mom and dad. So that's kind of where I picked up a lot of stuff.

Mormon Youth Social Life and Temple Dreams

John Dehlin [00:37:26] What about like war dances, steak dances, you know, steak activities like here in the United States. A Mormon's youth experience could be an amazingly fun social experience. What was it like for you growing up in Australia?

Tani Berlo [00:37:45] Yeah, so yeah we had all that, we had youth dances. We had. I think the difference in Australia is that there's obviously less of a population, less members. So typically when we would have, we would have multi stake dances. So all the way like probably like three hours away from where I am, south and north people would come to this one dance. So yeah, and I loved them, absolutely loved them as a youth. But they like I remember going into. So north from me is a little bit more conservative and south from us is a little bit more conservative than where I grew up on the coastline. And so we would wear our modest church dresses and there would be like modesty police at the front door. That's literally they would like put on little police badges and just in hindsight it's just wild. But they would like grab girls that you know had the slightest bit of cleavage showing and they'd like pieces of fabric that they'd like pin to your, to your dress so that your cleavage wasn't showing. And then the leaders would like go around and like on the slow dances would like make sure that you're like the right distance away from like the boys and stuff. So yeah, as a youth I didn't really think anything of that but that those little things used to annoy my mom so much because she was obviously had three girls and youth and we would always be like inviting school friends to come to activities like we were encouraged to do. And it got to a point where I was way too nervous to ever invite any of my non member friends into a youth dance because I would be worried that they might wear something and wouldn't be allowed in. And that used to really bother my mum a lot and yeah that so yeah that was sort of my experience with that. And like I said at the time I didn't really think anything of it. I was a kid and I was like oh this is just the way it is. And I just remember all the, all the leaders would just, just sit in like this big long row and just watch the kids dancing. Yeah. So do you remember, do you remember

John Dehlin [00:40:27] dreaming of like finding Your righteous Mormon priesthood holder boy and marrying him in the temple and marrying more, marrying that returned missionary kind of that. Every Mormon Teenage Girl's Dream 100.

Tani Berlo [00:40:42] I very much grew up in with leaders that were hardcore mother, house, wife figures. So I mentioned the one leader who I had all through seminary, who had had 14 births, 12 children. My young women's leader had 10 children. So very, very hardcore. Being a mother is all you have in life, you know, that ideal. And even as a teenager, I really struggled with that because I wanted to. My dreams were to go to university. I wanted to have a career. I wanted to be everything, like from a scientist all the way through to, you know, I had all these hopes and dreams, yet I was at the same time being indoctrinated that all that matters in your life is finding a returned missionary, getting married and having kids. And I remember as a youth being really conflicted and guilty about wanting to, about wanting to go, like to have dreams, to go to university. I remember feeling really ashamed of that until I think it was Gordon B. Hinckley that really kind of came out and was like, we think that you should get an education. And then all of a sudden it was, okay, so now you have to balance being educated, having a career, but also, if you fail in the home, you're done. You know, you're. You're not worthy if you fail in the home.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] So

Tani Berlo [00:42:19] that was. Yeah, that was a hard balancing act for me, having ambitions outside of motherhood. But then, yeah, and I also was pretty boy obsessed, I will say. And so I was very much like, who's going to be my eternal companion? Like, let's get this done. You know, this is my purpose. So, yeah, it was a huge part. Huge part of. Yeah, my experience was that whole, get married, have kids. That's your, that's your one true calling in life.

What Tani Was and Wasn't Taught About Church History

John Dehlin [00:42:55] All right, I'm going to do something I don't normally do, but I just. I'm feeling prompted to kind of do this. So I want. I want to. I want to kind of highlight how much or how little you were taught about, let's just say, Mormon Church truth claims or problematic Mormon Church history. Just, just to get a sense for, you know, whether you're taught accurate stuff or inaccurate stuff. Is that okay? So what I'll do is I'll just do a lightning round of a bunch of questions and then you tell me if you were taught it. Is that all right?

Tani Berlo [00:43:26] Yeah, yeah, sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Okay, so let's see. Were you taught that Joseph Smith was

Tani Berlo [00:43:33] a polygamist No, I was taught that that was a lie, that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] Okay. Were you taught that Joseph Smith used a stone and a hat to translate the golden plates?

Tani Berlo [00:43:48] No, No, I was taught that he used the Urim and Thummim, but I had no idea what that was. I didn't know it was. I didn't know. Like, I didn't have an image in my mind.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] So, no, we taught that Joseph. That his story about the first vision had multiple versions and changed over time. Were you taught that?

Tani Berlo [00:44:10] I was taught that there were four versions, but that it's just because he was telling them to different people and there were hardly any differences.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] Okay, were you. Were you. Were you aware that the church had prohibited black members from either holding the priesthood or attending the temple prior to 1978? And if so, what reasons were you told?

Tani Berlo [00:44:36] I was not taught. I didn't find that out until I was an adult. So, no, I wasn't taught that at all.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Really? My child, as a. As a woman of color, you weren't taught that?

Tani Berlo [00:44:48] No, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] Okay.

Tani Berlo [00:44:50] I think it's an ignored fact because of the. Yeah, yeah. So, no, as a child, I was. And I found that out when the Gospel. Gospel essays came out.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Okay. Were you told the reasons. What were you told about why Joseph Smith was killed?

Tani Berlo [00:45:09] That he was taken by mobs because Satan wanted his work shut down and he died a martyr. That was all.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Okay, so. So nothing about, you know, his own followers discovering the polygamy he was lying about and then him destroying the printing press and. And that whole deal?

Tani Berlo [00:45:34] Yeah. No, nothing at all.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Okay. Were you taught. Were you made aware of any of the problems in the Book of Mormon? Like, let's just say the. The horses and the steel, you know, all the anachronisms? Were you. Were you made aware of those, or did you. Did those things ever kind of cross your mind as you were, you know, let's just say a teenager in the church?

Tani Berlo [00:45:58] I remember asking questions about issues I saw as a teen in seminary and always being just told, well, of. Of course. This is. It's the Book of Mormon. It's true. So kind of like, shut up. So. No. And I didn't know the word anachronism until probably late teens, probably in my rebellious phase. That's when I really learned about that.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Okay, here's a big one. Had. Had the name Simon Southerton ever crossed, you know, entered your ears growing up as a Mormon in Australia?

Tani Berlo [00:46:39] Never, ever, ever, ever.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Do you know, do you know who I'm talking about? Do you know Simon Southerson?

Tani Berlo [00:46:44] I actually have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] Oh, wow, that's awesome. That's so great. That's so great. So if it's okay, I'll just tell you that, that, I don't know. Let's just say around the year 2000, there was a Mormon bishop from Australia who is a geneticist and he.

Tani Berlo [00:47:00] Yes, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. Continue.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Oh, no. Okay. Were you, were you taught anything about him or Simon when you were growing up?

Tani Berlo [00:47:10] No, not at all. I think I only had that light bulb moment because you've interviewed him.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those, for those who don't know what I'm talking about. Let me just finish telling the audience. Of all the countries where this discovery could be made, there was a genetic. Well, there was first Thomas Murphy, who is an American, I'll just say anthropologist out of Washington state, who started doing research around the, the genetics of Native Americans and started asking questions about whether Native Americans as taught by the Book of Mormon, descended from Israelites out of Jerusalem as the Book of Mormon claims. But then there was a Mormon bishop named Simon Southerton who published a book called Losing a Lost Tribe where he, where it was the first published book challenging the claim that Native Americans were of Israeli descent based on genetics. And ultimately he was excommunicated for, for publishing this book. But what's bizarre is, you know, he was important to my faith journey back in the early 2000s. You're living in Australia and you would have never even heard his name.

Tani Berlo [00:48:24] Never, ever heard his name. I did not come across his work until I listened to this podcast when you interviewed him. And I, I remember turning on the podcast and hearing an Aussie accent and I was like, what the hell? You know, like, I was like, oh, I've never heard an Australian being interviewed.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] And.

Tani Berlo [00:48:44] Yeah, so. Absolutely not. So when did he actually do, you know, when that book was published?

John Dehlin [00:48:50] Oh, it would have been in the early 2000s, before 2005, I'm going to say.

Tani Berlo [00:48:56] So that would have been like my, my youth smack bang in my youth experience and never, never heard his name.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] Yeah, I'm always amazed at how, just how being raised. And I've just looked it up on Google, 2004 is when losing a Lost Tribe was published. I'm always amazed at the stranglehold high demand religions have on information. You know, just like there'd be Western Europeans that have never heard of, of Hans Matson who was an area authority from Sweden who lost his faith, you know, in the early 2010s and it's, it's impenetrable really.

Tani Berlo [00:49:38] Like it's a thought of tunnel vision. You know, you're just, you have no idea outside of what you've been taught. Especially I guess growing up in the early 2000s where we had dial up Internet. You know, Australia to this day still has terrible Internet. But anyway, that's another conversation. But we didn't have access to information unless it was given to us. And we were taught from a very, very, very young age that you don't read anything that isn't published by the church because it's anti Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] Right.

Tani Berlo [00:50:15] You know, so there was a big taboo around anything that wasn't a church manual, a church talk or scripture.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] Right.

Tani Berlo [00:50:25] Pretty much.

Teachings on Church Authority, Lamanites, and Marriage

John Dehlin [00:50:25] What were you taught about the, the place of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on earth, especially relative to other religions?

Tani Berlo [00:50:39] Every, every single testimony in was the church is true, the church is true, the church is true. I remember even actually being as a kid being like, but what that's not really a grammatically correct sentence is that, you know, I would ask my parents, what does that actually mean? True. And there was, there's a very big superiority complex really I get towards other religions. But because Mormonism is such a minority in Australia, when I, when you grow up adjacent to a hot, like, Australia is very multicultural. So I had friends that were everything from Islamic through to Jewish through to agnostic, and I went to a Catholic school. So you learn tolerance as you go along just from the environment that you're in. But yeah, it's also, I think there's a very. As an Australian member, all throughout my childhood, you feel like an outsider. You feel like you're not really a Mormon because you're not in Utah. That was also always a really big theme because like I remember questioning as a young girl, okay, so if the prophet is the prophet of God, does that mean you have to be American to be of God? Like, because it didn't make sense to me that why, why wouldn't there be godly people from Australia? Like, why wouldn't there be godly people from England or any other country? Like, why is there no Chinese people? Or that was a big confusion point for me. And so as a kid I just interpreted that as well, you have to be American to be righteous, you know? So, yeah, that was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Okay, and then you've already answered this, but just because it'll fit in a good TikTok segment. What were you taught regarding the origin of Native Americans? And of Polynesians from the, from the, from us.

Tani Berlo [00:53:02] From the beginning, I was taught that Native Americans were from the Nephites and Lamanites that came across the ocean from ancient Israel. And that Polynesians came from a man named Hagoth, a character in the Book of Mormon who set sail across the seas. Because Polynesian legend says that we came on, on wakas or vacas, depending on where you're from, which is a canoe, a boat. And so that was, yeah, taught that, yep, Hagoth was the one. And so therefore Polynesians or Maori are Lamanites. So yes, that's what I was told.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] So did you identify as a laymanite growing up?

Tani Berlo [00:53:50] Yeah, yeah, I did, yeah. I, it wasn't at the forefront of my existence by any means, but yeah, I did identify as Lamanite and I did very much believe that, you know, the Book of Mormon was written for me because I'm a laminate and that's the purpose of this book, you know, And I thought I very, I even remember being like 12 and coming across maybe like a website, no idea what it would have been called, but it was like, you know, trying to disprove the Book of Mormon. I remember, like, no, I would have been 14, I would have, would have started seminary. I remember writing like this letter, like this, this heavy worded letter to this organization being like, this is a book of history and it should be respected, not talked down to and I know that it's true and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I, I remember telling my mom about that. They, they got back to me on my like tiny bubble@94hotmail.com email address. And they were like, we'd love to chat with you more. And I was like, hey mom, like, look at the good I've done by sending this angry letter. And my mum was like, you can't reach out. You shouldn't have done that. Like, you don't speak with these types of people, you know. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. So yeah, I was a very self righteous little teen.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] I love it, I love it. Okay, and let me just ask you this as a way to sum up this section. Prior to your rebellious years, and I'm assuming you were, you know, you believed in God and in, you know, in Jesus and the atonement and the resurrection and all that, that's traditional Christian teachings. But if you added up all these teachings, including a teaching about a modern day Mormon prophet, who was the, who was the Mormon prophet of kind of

Tani Berlo [00:55:48] your adolescence, Gordon B. Hinckley, I think died in. When I was 12 or 4. Oh, I can't remember, but I remember we were jet skiing that day coming back, and that's when we heard the news. So then it was Thomas S. Monson. So split between the two.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] And what were you taught about, you know, their role on Earth?

Tani Berlo [00:56:08] That they were a prophet of God and everything that they said was revelation. So when they got up at conference, that was the doctrine moving forward from there.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What were you taught about LGBTQ individuals? Just curious.

Tani Berlo [00:56:30] It wasn't really a topic in my. In my younger years. I can't really remember being taught much about it because I remember being 14, and one of the girls at school had come out as gay, and I didn't. I was like, oh, okay. I didn't have any. The concept of that. And then I remember asking my young women's leader, and then that was when the. Well, she's going to hell because she's gay. And that even as a really young youth, never, never sat right with me because I had a. It came about because I had a friend that was gay. So that was very confusing for me as a youth. And. And really was, I think, one of the. I could not, as a. As a kid understand why we would say, judge no one and love one another. And then also. But you can be mean to gay people. Like that. Like that did. Never made any sense to me, but that was definitely the culture of where I. Yeah. Where I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] Okay. And if you put all these beliefs, this. This pre. Rebellious, faithful Mormon beliefs all together, did you. Did you feel like you had a strong testimony and did all these teachings and this identity the church provided you along with the family, you know, cohesion. Did it work for you until it didn't? Did it provide you with happiness or joy or meaning or purpose? Let's just say before your rebellious years.

Tani Berlo [00:58:11] Yeah, I think it. I think it. It definitely, definitely had a happy childhood. I did, but it did. I was a very torn adolescent. Had a lot of shame, a lot of. Because I was a very literal believer. I had a very strong testimony, and I was very much. I constantly felt like I wasn't good enough. And. Yeah. And so. So, yes, I. I did enjoy my childhood, and I had. I have a lot of happy memories, but I also have a lot of negative memories as well. Yeah. So a bit of both, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Maybe. Let's jump into that. Maybe shame can be a good entree into your rebellious years. Do you want to talk about shame as an introduction to your rebellious years?

Rebellious Years and Sexual Shame

Tani Berlo [00:59:10] Yeah, so I, I, basically the lead in to my rebellious years was I had a high school boyfriend, he was a really lovely guy, obviously not a member. And so I had huge shame around dating and dating, full stop. You weren't, we weren't allowed to date at all. So I lied about having a boyfriend, had massive shame around the lie of the double life I was living. I think, I think I was maybe 16. No, 15. Hang on, trying to remember. Yeah, I think 15 when I started dating this guy. And yeah, I, I remember every day being in seminary and just being. Feeling like I was living a double life. And it, it got worse and worse as time went on because, you know, 15, 16, okay, that's fine. But then by 17, I've been in this relationship for, that I've been hiding for a couple of years. And I did come out to my parents that I had had, that I had a boyfriend and we were, we were serious, you know, like as you can be at 17. And then sort of the church friends found out and so I was sort of like constantly being brought to the bishop's office to talk about this relationship that I had with a non member. And yeah, I mean, as far as like teen normality goes, the relationship was very healthy. And then When I was 17, I slept with my high school boyfriend. And that was sort of the beginning of my rebellious phase because I had been taught that sexual sin was next to murder and therefore you're done if you break the law of chastity. I had a very much, well, if I've done that, might as well do the rest, because if I've done the worst, then might as well drink with my friends. Might as well just indulge in all the other stuff because I, I can't be any worse, you know.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] Have you been taught the chewed gum or the lick cupcake kind of metaphors at all the object lessons?

Tani Berlo [01:01:52] Yeah, like your virginity was your, your everything, your virtue was everything. And so I was, I would, I would be standing there on Sundays, you know, standing, saying the young women's theme, which is, you know, strength, divine nature, virtue. That's when they actually brought in virtue as one of the values that you learn in young women's. And I just remember being so ashamed for this poor boy, honestly, to be frank, he was dealing with me breaking up with him, getting back with him, breaking up with him. Not because I, just because I could, I couldn't deal emotionally with the level of shame that I was living with, kind of hiding all of this from My parents, from my friends. So I would always tell my mom things like, oh, I'm sleeping over at Kelsey's house, one of my girlfriends, and that's where she thought I was all the time, but I wasn't. I was running around with my friends, staying at my boyfriend's house. And I remember, like, my, My boyfriend's mother, she would always be like, I thought that you were a Mormon. I'm pretty sure that Mormons aren't allowed to drink, but you're drinking. And I would always be like, yeah, Mormons aren't allowed to drink. And she would be like, okay, well, that's interesting. You know, like, it was in the rebellious phase. So many people outside of the church were like, I thought that you weren't allowed to drink, or I thought that you weren't allowed to have a boyfriend. Or, you know, they would pick me up on stuff I was doing. And so I kind of got like this double ended shame of.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] Oh, yeah, I see.

Tani Berlo [01:03:42] Yeah. Even the people outside were like, you shouldn't be doing this because you're not allowed to do that. But then at the same time, they kind of encouraged it too, because. And then I got this nickname called the Naughty Mormon. They. That's what they called me when I was about 17, 18, so.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Oh, that's not a fun. That's not a fun nickname.

Tani Berlo [01:04:06] No, I hated it. I hated it. They thought it was hilarious. Like, they, they, they would being. They were trying to be endearing, I think. But yeah, it was. I hated that I was. Because I was obviously dealing with feeling like that. And then they would like jovially say that when we would, you know, drinking at a friend's party or whatever? And yeah, so that was. That was that. And did you ever.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Did you ever have to sit in the bishop's office and he's asking you details and wanting you to confess and asking you questions that no adult man should ever be asking a teenage girl behind closed doors. Can you talk about that? Can you talk about that at all?

Tani Berlo [01:04:54] Well, yeah, so just to sort of finish, I broke up with that, that boy just because I couldn't deal with it. But then I. That was when I was 17. So I was out of school. I was working for Apple at this stage and.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] Wait, the. The Apple?

Tani Berlo [01:05:14] Yeah, the Apple. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] How were you working? That's amazing. How were you working for Apple?

Tani Berlo [01:05:20] Well, I just applied. I was the youngest person they ever hired. I was 17 years old when they, they hired me. Yeah, I don't know. They just. I. I was A. I'm a nerd, I guess. That's all I can say.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] What were you doing for Apple? What were you doing for Apple?

Tani Berlo [01:05:35] I was just working in, in retail. So I was just working. I ended up being a expert. That's what they called it. So. Yeah, selling computers. Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Like in the Apple Store. The Apple Store. Okay, perfect.

Tani Berlo [01:05:49] Yeah, that's, that's a better.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] That's great. That's great. Yeah.

Working at Apple and Facing a Disciplinary Council

Tani Berlo [01:05:52] So, and, and, and so I'm 17, I've just broken up with a high school boyfriend, dealing with all the, this sexual shame and at the same time, Apples, they hire very diversely. So I Now suddenly have 20 gay friends and I'm being shamed in. A couple of times in the workplace I had said things that were offensive to my gay friends and they would call me out for it and I had no idea that it was offensive because I'd been so sheltered in that Mormon context.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] Do you remember what, do you remember the types of things you would have said?

Tani Berlo [01:06:33] Yeah, I remember and I'm not proud of this, but I remember people in Australia used to use gay as like a, a word to be like silly or like stupid kind of thing. And I remember it was Christmas time and they. One of my, my managers who was a gay man, he was like, and what are you going to be doing tonight, Tanaga? And I was like, oh, probably just some gay Christmas movies. And then all the. They kind of like, they were like, oh, what does she mean by that? And then they kind of like had this like discourse in front of me like, oh, I think she means like stupid. So she's just used that term to mean stupid movies. She thinks, she thinks gay people are stupid. Like, and as like an 18 year old, I was like, like panicking. Like I. But they were offended and I had no idea that that was offensive. So it was. Yeah, it was. I think as well they knew that I was Mormon and so they thought that I, I did. That I innately didn't like them, but that they were sort of maybe more nastier figures in, in just general. I had some really close friends who sort of took me under their wing and taught me a lot about sexuality, about relationships. Sort of taught me like the ways of the world, if you will. And I'm to this day so grateful for those people because if it wasn't for them, I honestly would have stuck my foot in it so much more. Anyway, one of my friends was like, you need a rebound guy? And I was like, what's that? So after my High school boyfriend. I got into a, a couple of maybe five to six month relationship with a guy from work. Ended up being really, really toxic. He was like very narcissistic. And so on top of all this shame, I am now having major self conscious problems because he was very focused on body image and I was very heavily into the fitness culture at the time and it was just a mess, to be honest. I was mess. My mental health was not great. Trying to navigate really painful shame feelings. So my mum convinced me the, the guy I was dating, no one liked him. He was not, he was not a great person to be with. And on a night of weakness, my mum convinced me to break up with him. And so I did. And I blamed sort of the church. I was like, I can't be with you because you're not a member and that's why I'm breaking up with you. And so he was like, well, I'll join. So anyway, and then my mom was like, no, look, even if he was a member, he's not the one. And so, so she helped me kind of get out of that relationship. And then from there I came back to church. So this was when I was probably 18, 19 and I had a disciplinary council. Now I was not an endowed member, but my bishop at the time, who was actually a beautiful man, like he was very soft spoken, he was like, look, I, I think that's okay, like, thanks for opening up to me. He was super chill about it. But the other bishopric members were not so chill and they inserted themselves in my repentance process and held a, a non formal disciplinary council. That's what they called it. Little did I know at that point in my life that that's not even a thing. So basically they decided to. The three, the three bishop members and the elders quorum president decided to hold a four man disciplinary council. And one of the individuals in particular was just asking the most intimate, intimate details about both of the relationships that I had had to the point where the bishop in front of me reprimanded him for asking the questions.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] Well, really, if it's okay for those who have no idea what this is now, you're what, 19 years old at the time?

Tani Berlo [01:11:13] Yeah, I think I would have just been 19, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Okay, so you're barely 19 years old, young woman, you've been sexually active. First explain to people why you would have been taught that a disciplinary council with four men sitting in judgment over you, why that would have even been necessary. What would you have been told?

Tani Berlo [01:11:34] Well, see, I'm I'm over here as a kid, literally living with the. The. The fear that I am going to burn in hell because I have ruined my future because no one's gonna ever want to be with me because I'm not a virgin anymore. Fear that everyone at church is gonna find out. Fear that people will talk behind my back about, you know, I literally thought that maybe I had ruined my. My chance at ever having an eternal companion or ever going to the temple or ever having that dream that I was set up to believe I needed to be worth anything. So for me, it was like an existential crisis of my eternal salvation dangling by a thread.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] And so tell me, tell me if this would be accurate, that if, that. If. That. If those object lessons, you know, you know, were incarnate, so to speak, you would have been chewed gum or a licked cupcake that no one would want, that God wouldn't want. And the only way for you to un. Become unlicked, to use the metaphor, forgive me, or to, you know, to become unchewed as a gross throwaway piece of gum, you would have needed to sit in a council with these four men and have them basically grill you, question you, and judge you. And that would be necessary for Jesus's atonement to kind of wash you clean of all your horrible sins. Am I overstating that or.

Tani Berlo [01:13:19] That's spot on. That's exactly how it felt. So that level of drama, if you will, match my level of existential crisis. So that's why I was like, oh, of course. Like I. I want to. I guess the more pain I was in, the more I felt like I was repenting because it was. Yeah, I guess that I just took it for what it was. And so, yeah, that's literally exactly what you said, is how I felt and why I got into that situation.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] And only if you're comfortable, just not because I. Not because I'm reveling in this or enjoy it. For those who have never been Mormon, I just want to give you a chance. Do you want to share? Are you comfortable sharing? And please say no if you're not. The types of questions that this one rogue bishopric member would have been asking you just so that people can really know kind of what you're talking about. Only if you're comfortable.

Tani Berlo [01:14:18] No, that's so fine. So, yeah, the questions were. And I think to just give a bit of background, if you're not Mormon, there is a lot of weird culture around particular sexual acts. So I was raised to believe that you should only have sex to have babies. And that was just penetrative sex. So I was asked questions like, how many times did you have sexual intercourse? Was it just penetrative sex? Did you have oral sex? How many times was it performed on you? How many times did you perform it? Did you ever reach climax? Did the other, the other, did the guy reach climax? Like literally just like asking just the most. Yeah, just like basically asking me to replay the, the various sexual intercourse experiences I had had.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] And as a night, as a 19 year old girl alone with four grown men in a room. Right.

Tani Berlo [01:15:34] Yeah, and three. And to be fair, three of them were very uncomfortable the whole time, including the bishop. But it was this one particular bishopric member that was asking all the questions. Then he also decided after to tell me the story of his premarital se. Sexual sin. Which is so weird. But anyway, even at the time I was like, okay, this is odd. But yeah, so just having these four men know all these intimate details about me was apparently I, yeah, I just wanted so badly to be clean again that I didn't even consider that that was odd. And it's interesting because I've only just literally in the last, like, I think two weeks ago I have just told my parents this story because I never, I never opened up to them about this because I didn't know that it was odd. I thought this was just what happened. My mum knew I was seeing the bishop but she, she never knew about this particular circumstance that took place. So yeah, it was very intense and did psychological damage to me in the long run.

John Dehlin [01:16:56] Yeah. Because I mean, number one, like it's so weird. Like let's say you had sex 10 times versus 30. Like is the consequence going to change? Yeah.

Tani Berlo [01:17:08] And that's sort of what they were getting at is, okay, well we need to know how severe and how many, like let's do the math here kind of thing. And there was very much like that, like, okay, well if you know, and I couldn't, I remember being like, I don't know, like I can't tell you the amount of times.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] And I mean. But then what's weird is there's no formula. It's not like, well, if he orgasm but you did it, then it's gonna be a different kind. Like none of that should matter at all. But setting aside the fact that it's completely inappropriate and almost sexually grooming behavior for grown men to be grilling a teenage girl about her sexual exploits, like it's horrific and perverted and gross. It's also just makes no sense that they would in any way ever need that level of detail.

Tani Berlo [01:17:59] Exactly. And also like this is not even like this is what I experienced, but like that's not what, what am I trying to say that a level headed bishop would not ever think of doing this. Like I've had beautiful bishops, very loving men that would never ever, ever do something like what happened to me. It just happened that these individual, this individual really just that's how he decided to do things. And I guess that's the issue is like you will have a different experience depending on who the leaders are, if they decide to, to do what they want to do, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Yeah, I kind of want to say yes and yes. Not every Mormon bishop is that way. And literally I've had countless people on Mormon stories tell almost the exact same stories including. Did you orgasm? Did you enjoy it? You know, is with girls as young as 12 years old. So yeah, it's common enough to. Where I've heard it. I've heard stories like this thousands of times.

Tani Berlo [01:19:14] Yeah. And what's, what I'm currently going through is I'm now a safe place for a lot of my childhood friends who grew up with the same leaders as me that they're coming to me and talking about the traumatic experiences they had. And I was lucky and that's, that's saying something. I. Oh, the stories that. And every time a friend opens up, it's like, it's like you're going through it yourself. Because we grew up together, we had the same leaders and I had no idea what was happening to them. And for example, I've had two friends that have been raped. I've had multitudes of girls, girlfriends that were touched, molested, raped by bishops, sons or you know, leaders. So they were not able to open up to the bishops because they were, it was, it was I guess manipulative because you can't go to my dad because that's my dad type situation. And yeah, it's just, it's to a point now where I'm just, I'm not shocked anymore when my friends come to me about the same figures, you know, that have done things to my friends. And then you know, another friend will be like, this happened to me too. And it's getting to a point where I'm like, oh my goodness. Like I'm just not surprised anymore. Which is absolutely horrifying that I'm not surprised anymore.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] And the only reason I'm coming down on the church a little bit hard here. Normally I don't derail a story to do this. But my friend Sam Young led an entire movement, you know, five or so years ago to get the church to stop these types of interviews. And while they've become a little bit better about allowing parents to be with their kids, if the parents insist or if the kids request it, these one on one interviews are still, and these disciplinary councils are still part and parcel of the average Mormon experience. The church hasn't changed. And that's why I'm just taking a moment to just beat the church over the head a tiny bit and say, you got it, you got to cut this out. You got to cut this out.

Tani Berlo [01:21:51] Yeah. It's something that I'm very. I try to be as respectful as I can, but this is something that I just absolutely, that's. Those sorts of interviews should never take place. And I guess to put it into perspective, the church installed new doors in my home ward that had have windows in them because obviously there was individuals in this ward community that this was just happening so often that they obviously internally they made some upgrades to the building and that was one of them. So I guess that tells you sort of the type. The issues that, that I guess were in the ward I grew up in and they have apparently, so I have been told, one on one interviews aren't supposed to be happening anymore. I have no idea if they still are. So yeah, it's just something that needs to be completely removed.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Yeah. And. And if they've stopped one on one interviews, it's not out of a genuine concern for victims. It's because either there was legal liability that they realized they had or they were shamed by people like Sam Young. And I don't want to belabor this point, but it's important. So Tony, coming back to your story, what was the outcome of your disciplinary council both in terms of like what the verdict was, how you felt about yourself afterwards, and then what that did to your Mormon faithfulness as a result.

Tani Berlo [01:23:32] Yeah. So the verdict was I passed. So I think I got slapped with a six weeks of no taking the

John Dehlin [01:23:41] sacrament, which is a shaming act. Right.

Tani Berlo [01:23:45] Say that again, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] It's kind of a shaming act that.

Tani Berlo [01:23:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] You want to describe. You want to describe why that's shaming.

Tani Berlo [01:23:53] So basically when you are sitting in church and the sacraments being passed around, if you don't partake of it, it's because you're not worthy to partake of it. And people like the sacrament passes, the people sitting around you, people notice when people don't take the sacrament and then the gossip mill starts and it's like, why aren't they taking the sacrament? So I remember for those six weeks, weeks I would try to get to church late so that I didn't have to take the sacrament, I didn't have to be there. And I could blame it on just being late. And I remember one week I just sat in the back row so that as minimal people could see as possible. And in the six weeks I pretty much dove headfirst back into the most. I was reading my scriptures like constantly. I was, yeah, I threw myself back into activity to I guess make up for the shame that I was feeling at that point. I was in the Institute program and then I, I eventually got a calling in Institute, but that's when I really threw myself headfirst into being a scriptorian, if you will. And that's when I also started opening my horizons, I suppose to dating members, which I'd not done before. So yeah, I had a friend introduce me to a friend down in South Australia, which is in Adelaide, which is like a two and a bit hour flight from me. And I was like talking with this guy for a couple of days and then I just flew down there and met a whole bunch of South Australian members. And here in Australia, the ysa, the Young Single Adults program is like a national thing. So every single year they have something called a convention, which is essentially a big, around Christmas time, a big like week long convention where all the YSA in Australia will sort of come to this one capital city and, and the capital city changes. So some years they're in Brisbane, some years they're in Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide. So the YSA all know each other around the country and not only do they know each other, but they know the reputations of everybody. So this guy that I was seeing was a Fresh Return missionary, very, had grown up in Adelaide, which is a very different. And was like a like maybe fourth, fifth generation Mormon. So I felt completely unworthy of the situation and my worst fear was that anyone would find out about my past, you know. So, yeah, that didn't really work out, but we're actually still really good friends to this day. And where was I up to? What was I talking about?

John Dehlin [01:27:12] You were talking about the kind of the YSA program and, and trying to make good, trying to, you know, trying

Tani Berlo [01:27:19] to kind of be so righteous that I could undo, I guess, what I felt about myself, which was that I think I did accept my repentance once I started taking the sacrament again. And then yeah, I just honed in and tried to become as, as Mormon as possible. And I then was looking at now I think I was twin. I think I, yeah, was maybe this was late 19, about to turn 20. That's when they announced the mission age change. So I all of a sudden had a mission on my radar. So I got to the point where I was, I took mission prep and I was filling out my mission documents and then I met my husband Ammon. So he had, he just got back off his mission from Melbourne and our families had been family friends for years and years and years and we dated for four months and got married. And I was 20 when I got married and it was very quick and very fast and my school friends were like very concerned about it because to them it was just like, what on earth is happening? Like, what do you mean you're getting married like you're a child, you know, because. Yeah, but my church friends thought it was amazing and got married in the temple. Thank goodness. My husband Aman is an amazing human being and unlike a lot of my friends who have been married so young, their marriages haven't. Haven't worked out. Mine thankfully has because yeah, he's a wonderful human being. So yeah, then I'm married at 20 and I remember Ammon. So Amon's history is his own. But he didn't grow up in the church program, so he was inactive pretty much up until he sort of went to his, went to go on his mission and then that his mission was really his major activity. So he had a past and I had a past and I felt comfortable with him because we were equal in that way. Whereas in the other relationship his past was squeaky clean. And that made me really uncomfortable because I was damaged goods in my opinion. So yeah, that's, that's. Yeah. And I think it was interesting too. Like everyone in YSA in Australia, like everyone has a reputation for things and you know, who's dated who and all that sort of stuff. Like so I would go say on a trip to Sydney and everyone knew that I had seen this guy from Adelaide because everyone knew him and blah, blah, blah. Just very like small town energy. Even though Australia is massive geographically. So yeah, lots of people had opinions of Ammon, but he's a great guy.

The YSA Convention, Courtship, and Temple Marriage

John Dehlin [01:30:43] Tell, tell everyone the purpose of this country wide. I mean it's obvious, but I just want to have you say it. What's the purpose of this countrywide annual YSA convention and just the, the countrywide YSA program? Why is that in the church's best interest to have that.

Tani Berlo [01:31:02] Well, it's basically so people can meet and get married.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] Sorry, meet who?

Tani Berlo [01:31:10] They basically want church members to marry other church members and to keep, keep that, that family knit together. So as, as much as they can, they want to introduce eligible singles to each other so that they then go on and get married in the temple and have Mormon babies and, and don't ever have an outside influence. And also, as a, as a, as a ysa, you're trying to meet eligible return missionaries because, you know, oh, the, the shame if, if you married a Mormon boy but he hadn't served a mission. Like that was very taboo, you know, which is just insane to actually say out loud. But you know, you just. All through young women, it's like you have to marry a return missionary. So there's all these guys that, they're members, but they haven't been on a mission, so they're on the no list. You know what I mean? It's. So. Yeah, that's the point is to essentially, essentially get people to meet one another and, and get married. And people would, they would joke like, oh, you're here to find your ec. Eternal companion. That was like the slang or whatever. And the leaders would talk about how successful a convention would be due to how many marriages resulted from a single convention. It. Yeah, so that was the point that really.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we could talk, maybe we'll talk later about this. But on the one hand, if, if people get married young and have kids young and, and if women don't pursue an education, you know, there's going to be people that say they're still happy. But, but you know, we could probably explore the unhealthy sides of being discouraged from dating, of being shamed about sexual exploration, about being not being encouraged to pursue an education and career, especially as a woman, and then being encouraged to marry so young and to start having babies so young. Like different people are going to have different opinions. But I think there's a real credible perspective, which is to say a lot of that those Mormon cultural teachings or standards can, can play out in unhealthy ways later.

Tani Berlo [01:33:34] Oh, absolutely. I have so many divorced friends and I, I always say that I'm like the 1%. That's not a correct stat. But I always say that I am so lucky that I found a man that was kind and that actually, we actually connected on a deeper level outside of just being both Mormon and. Yeah. And without, I honestly believe, like, without my partner, he, without him, I don't think I would have survived young motherhood. I really don't, I don't think I would have made it because I suffered so badly with postnatal anxiety and depression and PTSD from my births because I had my daughter at just 23. So I was, I was supposed to have it when I was 22, but she was late and I. My forte is not maternal instincts, let's just put it that way. But, but Ammon, he's so, he's so naturally giving and caring and so he really picked up that parenting came really easy for him and it just was not for me. So, yeah, I severely struggled through

John Dehlin [01:35:13] early

Tani Berlo [01:35:13] parenting and still am, frankly.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] Let me ask you really quickly. What was your. Were you guys married in the temple? And if so, what was your temple experience like?

Tani Berlo [01:35:24] Yeah, so we were married in the temple. My temple experience was confusing. I, I didn't understand what. Well, I, I sort of explain it. Like, I, it didn't make logical sense to me. So I. When you are being trained, I suppose, to, to attend the temple, people will tell you things like, oh, like it's the most amazing experience you'll ever have and you'll have so many questions and it's so complex and everything symbols and so me being me, I'm hyping myself up for this really deep doctrine dive. And I remember going through the temple and I was like, I learned all this stuff from the Old Testament. I don't understand what was complicated about that. So I was underwhelmed. When I, when I received my endowment, I was so confused because I was like, wait, what's complicated about that? I don't get. I don't understand why I've just been hyped up for all these years about going to the temple and that was it, which I know is a bit different to a lot of other people. And I think I was prepared for the, for want of a better word, the cultier parts of the temple because I had, I had friends that were like, yeah, you wear, you wear weird stuff. You know what I mean? So I was kind of, I was kind of prepared for that aspect. But I struggled with the temple and the, the temple was really a big part of my faith crisis was like sort of the first topic. I, because I just never, I never understood the logic of it. It was really difficult for me to find logic in the. Yeah. So. And so I solved that or tried to solve that by throwing myself into it. So we would go to the temple once a week. We became temple workers as like brand new married couple Because I couldn't understand it and that very highly frustrated me.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] Right. Okay. Okay. So what do you want to tell us about those early other than what you've already shared about having maybe too many kids too young and not being prepared for it? What do you want to share about your Mormon story as it progresses?

Sexual Shame, Early Marriage, and New Motherhood

Tani Berlo [01:38:03] Yeah, so I guess in our first couple years of marriage I realized that I had a lot of hang ups and shame around sexuality. So that was a massive deal that I'm, and I had to work out because I wasn't in a place to admit that, that, that the church couldn't have possibly had a hand in that. So I have to have something wrong with me. It must be me.

John Dehlin [01:38:28] May I ask you a question about that?

Tani Berlo [01:38:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Yeah. So. So some people like might imagine if someone was sexually active prior to their Mormon marriage that maybe they'd be more sex positive, maybe they would have had explorations so that, you know, some of, some of that early marital sexual experiences might even be better enhanced. What. So, and this isn't me asking any, any, you know, details or anything, but how was it that that wasn't the case for you? How did, how did the kind of the clause of shame encircle your, your early marriage experiences then?

Tani Berlo [01:39:13] Yeah, so I, there's two sides to it. Yes, I can, I, I remember having an early discussion with my partner saying we were so grateful that we had previous experience because it made our relationship more just, it was a satisfying relationship. Right. Whereas I, I had a plethora of friends that had kept the law of chastity that, that, that couldn't stand sex. They, they couldn't, they hated it and had very negative experience. So that wasn't my experience. But, but what was, was the differing expectations of like, like the, in Elders quorum, my husband was listening to the men brag about oh, I have sex with my wife every single night. And that's his expectations because that's what he's hearing at church. And then there's the reality of life, which is just not, that's not everybody's experience. And so I'm thinking, okay, I must be, it must be me. It's probably I'm being punished because I had broken the law of chastity and having differences of expectations is just my suffrage because I sinned. To be honest, it wasn't that bad. Like in comparison to so many other other stories. It really wasn't bad that bad. But yeah, it was just shame. It was just shame around also things like, like I believe now sexuality, especially for females is so much more than the act of sex. It's, it's got to do with the way that you can think and the way that you can express yourself. And so when tools that are very helpful to have a healthy sexuality are taken from you, like you can't read anything that might be erotic or you can't have any fantasies because that's a sin to think that. And obviously masturbation is completely off the table. Absolutely not. And you know, you, then you've got cultural things like people saying, oh no, you can't. Oral sex is of the devil, you can't, that's not allowed. And you could just go. All these things taken away from you. And, and you've been programmed as a young woman to never think about sex ever. So you go from shutting every single impulse down to then just expected to have a healthy sexual relationship. But it takes years to undo that gut reaction to no, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:42:19] My.

Tani Berlo [01:42:20] One of the leaders sort of said you go from no, no, no to go, go, go. And that's not. You can't just turn off the train, the indoctrination. It's. You have to get therapy for that experience. You have to get therapy for it because you just. Otherwise you'll never. Purity culture is so deep seated. And I mean I have now come to the realization that it will just be something that I will, it'll be a lifelong thing because there's just so many levels to it. And you solve one and then you catch yourself having a thought and you're like, wait a minute, why do I think that? And you realize, oh my goodness, it's because I've been programmed to, to believe that it's my responsibility that a man doesn't think sexual thoughts about me because of the way I'm dressed. Because that's what you're taught in purity culture. So yeah, it's, it's, it's very nuanced, I think, and it's very hard to express it in like sort of a short time period because it's so multifaceted and everybody is different. Everybody had different leaders, everybody had. Has a different partner. Some people are not like some men in the church are not gracious enough to work through those issues with their wives. They don't care. You know, and I was just lucky that I had Ammon who was very much, you know, wanted to help me understand myself. And that's. I, we've grown together basically. So.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Yeah, well, I'm, I'm so sorry that happened. And it's such a shame that something that should be so natural, so life giving, so beautiful, needs to be contorted and kind of tainted for so many people's experience.

Tani Berlo [01:44:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] Yeah.

Tani Berlo [01:44:34] It's. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:36] Okay. What, what else? Kind of. Where does your Mormon story go next?

Tani Berlo [01:44:42] All right, so, yeah, we had my daughter two years after we got married, or two years and a couple of days after we got married, I was just 23, very traumatic birthday, almost, you know, rushing to a cesarean section and all that stuff. And it's actually really interesting. I had a lot of ideas about motherhood. Like in, in when you're growing up, you were taught this blissful ideal of motherhood. It's portrayed to you like it is the most amazing, glorious thing ever and it will fulfill you in every way and you'll be making casseroles and cookies and it will just make you absolutely closer to God. And my experience from day one was literally the opposite. I almost died in childbirth. And I struggled so badly through the early days of just things that you never get told at church. Like, no one ever talks about breastfeeding and how hard that can be. You're just expected to, I don't know, know this stuff. And, and you can't complain about it because being a mother is, Is the blessing from God. So that's really where my faith crisis journey began, was with. Was with motherhood and realizing, oh, my gosh, I have crippling anxiety and depression, which I had. No, you don't know you're suffering from postnatal anxiety and depression. If you don't have someone that can kind of tell you that you are you just as a new mum, especially being so young, you just think it's the way that it is now. And so to mitigate that feeling of existential kind of dread, loss of identity, confusion as to why I wasn't absolutely loving my amazing motherly life and why I wasn't naturally just. It didn't come easily to me. I decided to study my master's degree. I. Anyway, I sort of. I think I. I think for me, in my head, I was like, look, I've had the baby. So that ticks off the, the, the thing that I need to do. So now I'm allowed to indulge in my actual wants and desires. So I, I do my master's degree, I work, I started a business and it got quite big and. And I was just so anxious and, and overworking and basically overworking and overstudying was my form of buffering. Buffering the Emotions and naturally I got completely burnt out, as you can probably imagine. And then, you know, we sought counsel from the bishopric and our priesthood leaders and they would always just tell me that I need to stop working and stop studying. But at that point in our lives I was the breadwinner and we just kept getting this advice like, you should not be working, you're a mother now, you need to be staying at home with the kids. And that was so hard to deal with because at that point in time Ammon was my psychological anchor and he was so much, he, he just helped so much with, with our daughter and then our son who came two years later and I needed him because I was struggling with, you know, suicidal ideation at my worst.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] And

Tani Berlo [01:49:01] I was, I was our family's income and that was just not respected. It just. I was told so many times that I shouldn't be working, I shouldn't be studying. And I think like I remember I was nine, nine months pregnant. Yeah, sorry, eight months pregnant with my son. When I graduated from my master's degree and all my MBA graduation photos, I got this big baby bump and, and I just remember like the comparison of announcing that I was having a baby at church versus announcing that I'd finished my master's degree. Nobody cared when I finished my master's. The only people that cared were my non member friends. But when I had a baby, Relief society would give you gifts and like bring you food and talk about how amazing things are and, and you know, then I went and started a business and became a lecturer and no one at church ever wanted to hear about that. And I remember that was really annoying to me because my, I was so. I'm still so passionate about learning and knowledge and academics and business. That's what I'm passionate about. And I've had to learn the skills of motherhood and I still to this day don't really feel like it's just not my forte. You know what I mean? And that was, I struggled with that so badly. I think it got to a peak when I remember I just had a breakdown because, you know, motherhood and I had cried my makeup off sitting outside in the car out the front of church. I turned to my mum and I was like, is this just what we do? Do we just walk into this building and smile and pretend everything's fine? And she said, well, yeah. And I just remember sitting there that day being so angry because I had to pretend that I wasn't experiencing what I was experiencing mentally. And that reached its Peak in 2019, which. My son was born late 2018, so he was a few months old and 2019 came and I. They gave me a calling as a gospel doctor and teacher. Brand newborn.

John Dehlin [01:51:39] Really quickly. Tani, can I ask you a question before you talk about that?

Tani Berlo [01:51:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] Because I think you're going to start talking about your faith crisis. Is that, Is that right? Okay. Just to close out that last section, you mentioned reaching the point of suicidal ideation. And I just. If you wouldn't mind, you've described a lot of what was going on, but can you describe the words that you. You could now put to the thoughts and the ruminations you were having as you started to experience suicidal ideation as a Mormon mom?

Mental Health Struggles and Prescription Drug Dependency

Tani Berlo [01:52:14] Yeah. So I was. Anxiety and depression and PTSD weren't words in my vocabulary. I knew mental health. I knew. I knew in a. In a theoretical concept that other people experience that, but I didn't because, you know, why would I ever be depressed or anxious? I have all the. I have all. I have God's happiness. I have God's plan. I have children. I'm married, you know, and so when it goes untreated and, and you don't get help, it gets worse. And so I was at a point

John Dehlin [01:52:56] where

Tani Berlo [01:52:58] I was looking up. Sorry, this. And just a trigger warning. This is pretty dark, but, you know, I was looking up life insurance policies and trying to choose one that would allow death by suicide and still pay out because I thought my kids would be better off in my husband's hands because he's more capable than I am. And as long as I can give them money, then I can get out of the way. You know, that's. Sorry, that's the. That. That was my very, very lowest point because I just, I couldn't get out of. You can't quit motherhood. You know, you can quit a toxic job. You can. You can quit pretty much anything but motherhood. And I was just struggling so badly with it. So, yeah, that, that they were the thoughts that I was having. I was literally, I was making a plan to. To leave. And the only way I could possibly see fit at that point in time was death. Yeah. So that's sort of. There were the thoughts I was having.

John Dehlin [01:54:12] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And obviously Mormonism got you into having multiple children at a very young age. Did. Did Mormonism's heavy focus on strict gender roles and the woman being in the home and, and that being her glorified position. Did, did those make what was already a difficult situation? Maybe Even worse.

Tani Berlo [01:54:37] Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that I, I. I detest now the endure to the end mentality because that prevented me from getting the help that I needed sooner. Because there is no. At least in my experience, there was no concept or idea around mental health and how to deal with it. And it was me just attempting to get better.

John Dehlin [01:55:16] I had.

Tani Berlo [01:55:16] I had to. I had to find it out all for myself. And I remember buying, like, textbooks online about, like, cognitive behavioral therapy and things like that, just. Just to learn what the heck was happening. And that's, yeah, very much like it was a very angry, frustrated part of my life because I just felt like how. I think I felt like everybody was living a lie or I was just the odd one out. I couldn't understand how I was struggling so badly with motherhood and then would go to Relief Society and everyone would just talk about how great and glorious motherhood is. It just didn't make any sense to me. So, yeah, the moment narrative was so suffocating. That's probably how I would explain it.

John Dehlin [01:56:12] I'm so, so sorry, Tony. I'm so, so sorry. So. So if we're talking. If we're at 2019. Is that what you said? 18?

Tani Berlo [01:56:22] Yep. Yeah. End of 1819.

John Dehlin [01:56:25] So that's just three. We're now up to, like, three years ago in the story, Is that right?

Tani Berlo [01:56:31] That's right, yes.

John Dehlin [01:56:32] Okay, so this is pre Covid now, three years ago.

Tani Berlo [01:56:36] Yeah. And, yeah. So I've got this newborn. My second. My. My son. And I mean, he was great. I had a really positive cesarean section and a much more positive birth. But because it was a surgery, I was given opiates, and the opiates made the anxiety go away, made me happier, made me feel better. All the problems were gone when I was on the opiates, so I very quickly form an opiate dependency.

John Dehlin [01:57:13] Was this. If you don't mind me, was this OxyContin?

Tani Berlo [01:57:17] Tramadol? I don't know. Not OxyContin. OxyContin's a stronger release.

John Dehlin [01:57:25] Got it.

Tani Berlo [01:57:25] The one that I was on was easier to get because it was like, a lower grade.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Yeah.

Tani Berlo [01:57:31] Still dangerous, of course, but it was easier for me to. To get my hands on it because it wasn't as stigmatized as something like oxycontin. We call it Endone here in Australia.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] I just have to say I just finished the book Empire of Pain. It's one of the best books and the most important books I've ever read, and I just want to recommend it to everyone who's within the sound of my voice. Please read Empire of Pain. It's about how, you know, this Sackler family and this company called Purdue Pharma jump started the opiate addiction crisis in the United States and in the world. And I don't. I don't mean to, like, take away from your story, but it's so important.

Tani Berlo [01:58:15] I completely. Yeah, I think. And for anyone listening that's dealing with it, because it can be so. I think the thing with opiate addiction or dependency, however you like to phrase it is, is it's so easily hidden. It's not like alcoholism, where people can. Can tell that you're drunk. And it's not like, you know, other forms of addiction. Taking a little pill is so easy to hide. And. And I think that's the danger in it. I. And it's so. It's so common. It is so common. And. And when you are dealing with it, you think that you're the only one. And I think for me. So I'm so. Yeah, we just. I remember we. It was. It was that Christmas, so it would have been the 2018 Christmas. And we're going into 2019. And here in Australia in 2019, we were having the wildfire crisis. I'm not sure if you remember that. We're massive. Yeah. And so I was panicked, stressed more than normal. And that's when I really started taking. Taking. It started, like, every weekend, then every other day. And then it got to the point where I was taking it every single day. And I remember going to my doctor and she was prescribing it because I had lied about, you know, the pain I was in and whatever. And she said to me, why don't you try glass of wine? And I said, oh, no, I can't do that. And she was like, what? Basically, she was, like, trying to help, like, with the anxiety and just like, to. To give a little bit of relief, you know, and she's like, why don't you try, like, a one standard drink of red wine at night? And I was like, I can't do that because of my religion. And I remember sitting in my car afterwards and thinking, oh, my gosh, I am literally taking drugs instead of having a glass of wine because I can't drink without feeling crippling anxiety and shame and guilt, but I'm taking opiates. Like, I had this really weird, like. It's like I had this, like. Yeah, opening of my, like, on the sunroof, you know, like, just because I was like, what am I doing? You Know, but I kept doing it because it, I couldn't drink because the shame was too great and, and the opiates were fixing the anxiety.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] You know, it's this weird irony within Mormon culture. Like, I remember one time I'm playing basketball and there's this bottle of orange liquid in a Gatorade wrapper. And I grab it because it was a friend's and I grabbed it and start drinking it. It was iced tea. And I just remembered I spit it out and just feeling like I had murdered somebody. Like I, you know, and, or, you know, and I still, I wasn't until my mid-40s where I ever even tasted coffee. And I'm trying to just juxtapose this irony of this 19th century word of wisdom that Joseph Smith created and the way that it's ingrained in us from the time we're born as Mormons, that things as innocuous or even as healthy as coffee and tea are really horrific sins. And then as Mormons, there's this massive opiate addiction in Utah and we'll, we'll pop opiates as Mormons and literally not even have a second thought about it. It's kind of strange.

Tani Berlo [02:02:20] It is bizarre. And, and that's exactly right. It was prescribed by my doctor, so I'm allowed it. And I'm, I'm literally on drugs. Like, I, I, I was constantly consuming opiates. And I think another really good perspective is like, I, to get through like the day, took massive amounts of pre workout and energy drinks, but I wouldn't drink coffee. And like, that just didn't make any sense. Like why, you know, energy drinks, like black coffee probably is so much better for you.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] Yeah.

Tani Berlo [02:02:58] Than the crap that they put into

John Dehlin [02:02:59] energy drinks or Diet Cokes, you know. Diet Cokes.

Tani Berlo [02:03:01] Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, the pre workouts I was taking definitely had bad stuff in them for you, but I had no guilt about that. It was the coffee I couldn't have specifically.

John Dehlin [02:03:15] Yeah.

Tani Berlo [02:03:17] So, yeah, it's just this bizarre, bizarre. You just find yourself in these really weird positions. And I found myself with this opiate issue. And then we went into Covid and I think I mentioned, sorry. During this time I was made the gospel doctor and teacher. So I was like 23. I think that maybe like, explains my level of dedication to being knowing all the things. Right. So for those that aren't members, Gospel doctrine is the, the adult class of Sunday school, basically. So to have somebody as young as me teaching the adults the doctrine was very odd. Like, that's not really typically done, but that's. We started out teaching New Testament and I really enjoyed the historical side of it. So I was teaching really not from the manual. I was teaching all this historical context around the Old Testament and that really challenged the ideas of not only me, but the congregation. And so it was pretty normal form there to be a fight every single time I would teach a lesson amongst either the, the members of the congregation of the ward fighting with each other about something I'd said, or with grown adults fighting with me about something that I have said.

Teaching Gospel Doctrine While Losing Faith

John Dehlin [02:05:11] Okay, let me ask. So. So how old are you when you start teaching gospel doctrine? Doctrine, if you don't mind saying, I'm.

Tani Berlo [02:05:18] I would. I was 23 when I started three.

John Dehlin [02:05:20] Like normally in a Mormon ward, it's the 50 year old, the 60 year old. A young gospel doctrine teacher might be a 40 or 30 year old, but someone in their 20s teaching grown adults, many of them who would be not only lifelong Mormons, but multi generational Mormons and a woman. That's actually quite rare.

Tani Berlo [02:05:43] I would say, yeah, it is, it is. And, and I would receive like, those lessons were everything. I threw my scholarship, my everything into those lessons. And I had like ex bishops and like all the old, the oldies, loved the classes because I would put a spin on, on something in the New Testament, like, you know, the history of crucifixion, when we would study about like Christ's death and, you know, the symbols of Easter and where those come from. Just like, you know, basic historical understanding that you don't talk about typically. All you talk about is like the Mormon perspective of the. You skim the surface, typically. I really like to go deep. And for a long time the congregation adored that because they were learning things that they never ever heard before. Just because I went a little bit, like, took a bit of effort to actually, you know, look up. They were all church resources, of course, but I would, you know, I was regularly on the BYU website looking at biblical scholarship and different literature that had been, that had been posted and in the safe places and bringing that in, incorporating that into the lessons. And people's minds were being expanded. And I started wearing slacks to church, which. Oh my gosh, was that the ward gossip? So I was.

John Dehlin [02:07:23] What had you been taught about women and slacks in church growing up?

Tani Berlo [02:07:29] So you absolutely wore nothing but your best dress. Women never wore pants. It's very taboo. And so I was sort of pushing the boundaries by being seen by my ward as a very intellectual woman that was pushing a lot of boundaries in and of itself. But then when I started wearing pants to church, I was like, you know, most of the people actually loved it, to be honest. But I know there was a lot of people that were like, oh, oh, this is a sign of apostasy. She's going down.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] You know, so let me ask. So. So when. When. When fights would emerge over what you were teaching or you would dare to wear pants as, like this radical act, in your mind, were you losing your faith? In your mind, were you trying to cause problems? Were you just kind of trying to be a modern, normal human? What was going through your mind as fights were erupting and you're creating the scandal of. Of pants?

Tani Berlo [02:08:32] I tr. I was trying to. I was trying so hard to deepen my faith. I was trying to find fact, every factual thing that I could find that would back up the stories and the. The ideals and everything, you know, in, say, the Book of Mormon. And that just would not sit right with people because it went against what the tradition taught. So, for example, I remember giving this lesson about ancient Hebrew law and about how they saw capital punishment legally, and if theft took place, then, you know, killing somebody for that theft, depending on the level. I can't remember all the details at this point, but that was allowed. And so I was like, look, this was actually Hebrew law. So when people say that, you know, why did Nephi murder in the Book of Mormon? Well, it was actually because of the ancient cultural context. And I remember that was just like it erupted into a fight. But I was trying to justify always that. That and deepen that faith, which I think says a lot about where I was at, because I was trying to grab onto anything I could to. Yeah, to. To not. I was asking questions because I can't not ask questions. I was trying to channel it in a certain way. The fights started really emerging when. When I started teaching Dr. Doctrine and Covenants. That was when I went through my. That's when my shelf broke, was Doctrine and Covenants, because I was. I was coming, funnily enough, not the. Not the Book of Mormon because we had Covid. A big Covid gap in the middle. So I didn't teach a lot of the Book of Mormon. Pretty much just the beginning and just the very, very end. So I didn't do a lot of deep diving into the Book of Mormon like I had done in the New Testament. It was when we got to Doctrine and Covenants, everyone was back at church. And I'm giving these lessons about the Doctrine and Covenants and I'm Putting the same amount of effort into deep diving into the history. And man, I just was like, oh my goodness. And so I would bring this history that, you know, you can find in the gospel essays. I wasn't looking outside of anywhere but the, the Mormon safe zone. And so I would come in with these lessons and, and talk about, you know, I remember this one fight that took place because I was talking about, I think I mentioned that a mistake was made. Oh, it was about the 116 lost pa of the book of Mormon, which is something, it's an event that took place and that's documented in Doctrine and Covenants. And, and I had said that Joseph Smith made a mistake because that's literally what he, in the Doctrine and Covenants talks about, is the mistake that he made. And I had members literally stand up in the class and chastise me for saying how dare I talk about a prophet of God and say that he made a mistake. He like, he's perfect. And I just remember like being like, what is going on? Like, no he's not. Like, you know, so yeah, that was. And then it got to the point where every week there were fights. And this was specifically in the, in the Doctrine and Covenants is a very heated. Apparently it's a very heated topic for believing members to hear just the flat out history of what was going on. And I guess people were upset that I had the audacity to teach the history of what was happening as far as I was aware at that time, instead of sticking to the manual because it's a, it's a glossier look at the early church then the facts of history that I was bringing up that you can find in Mormon literature. They didn't like that.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] So yeah, I don't know if you know anything about my story, but I got called to teach seminary and the year the Doctrine and Covenants, I started studying church history. And that was back in 2001. And that was, that was the beginning of the end for me in terms of my orthodox Mormon faith. So I went through before and asked you a bunch of things regarding what you were taught or what you weren't taught about race, about the Book of Mormon, about. I didn't ask you about Book of Abraham, but like all these sorts of things. Would you, would you even. I can either prompt you or you can come up with it on your own. Would you be able to kind of go through a list of the things you discovered about Mormon Church history that you discovered as you were prepping for your Doctrine and Covenants lessons that you had never been taught before that were shocking to you?

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Tani Berlo [02:14:07] Yeah, I mean, do you have a week?

John Dehlin [02:14:09] So just start with the big ones, start with the biggest ones.

Tani Berlo [02:14:13] I think I'll do it in from memory. The chronological order for me was learning first. It started with the temple. I did a massive deep dive on what the temple ordinances were originally. They were very, very different from what I knew and I didn't understand why. And then.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] Are you talking about the Masonic, the science and the penalties and the tokens that come out of the Masonic, Masonic

Tani Berlo [02:14:50] ritual, the whole, all of that. I think I spent a week hyper focusing. I've still got the, it's like a 40 page document on my computer or something. I, I was just pulling apart like, like quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith saying we have the true masonry, we. And like realizing that they, that the, the temple was set up copying Masonry, Freemasonry and they were overtly, they were telling people this, like they, they weren't trying to hide it. And that went into direct conflict from what I knew, which is like, absolutely not. Like the temple is straight from God. And then realizing that how many changes were made in the temple, realizing that the sealing ordinance was an absolute polygamous mess and that the ideas of sealing a family as a family unit really didn't come till well after Brigham Young's time. That was, that opened up this whole thing. And the way that I consolidated it at the time was that the Saints didn't build the Kirtland Temple in time and God condemned the church and took away their ability to call themselves Christ's church and that the church today is still condemned. And so I decided that, well, if the church is condemned, that means I can't believe in the temple. So that was like the beginning of my faith crisis was yeah, learning about the signs and tokens, the slitting of the neck, the pulling one's bowels out. And also funnily enough, a really big issue I had was in the temple when the women only have to veil their faces. That just got that, that little tiny thing was so such a passionate thing. I was like, why don't the men have to. Why is it just the women, huh? Why aren't the men nailing their faces? That doesn't make any sense to me. And so yeah, all these things and then I'm just. But all focused on the temple to start with. And then it led from there into, okay, well we every week say that we're Christian, but every week at church, all I'm learning About is ministering, attending the temple, youth programs, all this other stuff. And no one's actually talking about Christ. And so then I came to this, this intermediary period where I was like, okay, Christ states that his gospel is faith repentance, baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Anything outside of that isn't Christ's gospel. So that was where my head was at. So I was like, okay, so what's with tithing then? And then where's that tithing being spent? And then that opens up. Oh my goodness. The, the church is funneling all these donations every year through my country that has the, these relaxed donation laws and they're, you know, got these huge asset portfolios that they own all these million dollar buildings on millions and millions of dollars, you know, property. And finding out that they only spent like 20 at most on humanitarian work,

John Dehlin [02:18:59] I think it's less than 1%. I mean, it's tiny.

Tani Berlo [02:19:02] Oh, there you go. Yeah. At the time I think I, I was, I thought it was 20 and I was like, what are they doing with the rest of it? And I came across this. I think it was also another Joseph Fielding Smith quote that stated, one day I foresee a future where our members won't have to pay their tithes because the church will be self sufficient. And I was like, pretty sure. Like the, what is it, 100 billion? What? I don't know how the estimated value of the church's portfolios that's self sufficient. We could solve global hunger 10 times over with the church funds. So why aren't we doing that? That became sort of my next, my next thing is sort of the corporatization of the church which then led into the way that everything's run the, like this, you just don't know, like the, the salaries of the, the church leaders and, and then really learning about the early church finances and, and that Joseph Smith was being paid to take these plural wives in their teens. And just like it just, it snowballed.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] And so that took you into, that took you into polygamy then.

Tani Berlo [02:20:28] Yeah, yeah. And so for me, Joseph Smith was the last fool in my shelf. I ignored Joseph Smith and the problematic history that surrounds him till last. Really. I didn't want, I want, I so badly wanted to believe in the Book of Mormon. But the, you know, I was studying the anachronisms, I, I realized how racist the whole concept of telling and being mori. Telling an indigenous people. This is your history. No, it's like what, you know what I mean? Like that's Just bizarre. But, but I, I see it, I saw it in my own culture. Like, people would give up their, their Maori spirituality for, for Mormonism, and, and they would say, no, no, the stories of our elders are wrong. This book is our background. And, and then, you know, I came across, obviously, being a history buff. I love ancient Egyptian history. And I'd, like, sort of noticed the, the figures in the Book of Abraham before, but people would always be like, oh, you know, don't worry about that. And I remember being like, this is the Book of the Dead. And I, like, had this moment where I was like, wait, I am sure. So I went on this deep dive, ended up coming across the CES Letter, which was exactly what I was hypothesizing at the time. And the CES letter really beautifully places the translated, incorrectly translated Book of the Dead figure next to the proper Book of the Dead figure of, of the Egyptian view of the afterlife. And, and that's why I came across the CES letter. I didn't even read most of it. I was just interested at that point of time in the Egyptian mistranslation and the Kinderhook plates. And, and then obviously, I, I, I, I vilified Brigham Young. That was how I kind of started. So I, everything about Brigham Young, he was the villain, you know, and, and, you know, Emma was the wife of a prophet, and she couldn't stand him. And, and I, I had all these quotes from him stating that he's not a prop. He never actually claimed to be a prophet. And, you know, he just claimed to be the president of the church that would lead the church to success. And so that sort of started coming undone for me. And then it just got to a point where I realized it's just, it's not just Brigham Young. It. Joseph Smith, like, just the. I, I can't actually explain the disa. The. No, it's not disappointment. It was like. It was grief. I grieved over the loss of this faith in, in something that I assumed was, Was fact and true, and I grieved the loss of the Book of Mormon because I, I had loved the Book of Mormon growing up. I grieved the loss of believing in God as I think I grieved the loss of the certainty. You know, in Mormonism, you're so certain that you know the truth, and then you get thrown into this place where you're like, I know nothing. And that's very difficult to sort of deal with and hard to communicate. I think you were gonna say you were.

John Dehlin [02:24:30] You you grieved the loss of Joseph Smith. Do you want to talk about that?

Tani Berlo [02:24:33] Right, yeah. So I had always revered Joseph Smith as a prophet and I believed in his story. And I coming to terms with the fact that the stories that I was told about him being tarred and feathered, the stories I was told about him being thrown in jail were always glorified as sort of like being compared to Job from the Old Testament. Like he went through all of this and he was a martyr because he was a prophet. Finding out that he was married to over 30 women, that he had, in one of his closest confidants sort of words, a dirty, filthy affair with a 16 year old girl that was living in his house, that he married women that were pregnant and married to other men and took these women from other men who loved them. My view of him became from prophet to predator. And that was really hard to realize that, that this prophet doesn't exist. And this man that I have spent so much of my life revering is in my, was in my opinion a megalomaniac predator. And that was very painful, I think, to grieve the loss of that, you know, that I don't really know how to put it that figure and that he wasn't what I believed him to be. Yeah, that was the, the Joseph Smith stuff really hit me the, the worst because as his reputation went down, in my understanding, you know, I realized, okay, there is a really good premise and a lot of evidence to show that he was capable of completely writing the Book of Mormon and fabricating revelation very easily. To just sort of be able to God like it's, to speak in that language and to be capable of coming up with that stuff. I guess I just really realized that, yeah, that this prophet that I loved wasn't real and he was actually really dangerous. That was the grief that I had.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] I'm so sorry. Yeah, your world kind of falls apart and it does. So was this just, was this just two years ago then or still three years ago at this point?

Coming Out as a Non-Believer and Life After Mormonism

Tani Berlo [02:27:37] Yeah. So I'm trying to think of timelines because it was sort of, I don't really remember because it was happening gradually and I was also increasing gradually non Mormon things. So I, I was saying I'm, you know, started tapering off opiates and started drinking alcohol to, to help with that tapering process and to just have something else that was healthier in comparison to, to a highly addictive drug. So I was, yeah. And then I was sort of dropping off my church attendance and I had come out to my parents that I no longer believed in the temple. So I don't really. I don't really have a day or a date that I. I kind of came out that, hey, I have. I have no faith left in Mormonism. But it was pretty quick. I very much hyper fixated on. It was everything at that point in time.

John Dehlin [02:28:43] How was. How was Ammon as your faith was disappearing? How did Ammon take that?

Tani Berlo [02:28:48] He was very supportive. For him, it was also painful, I think, as well, because I was very open in my studies when I was going through that, and. And he was just like, what the heck? You know, he sort of had that moment, but he. Yeah, he was really supportive of where my head was at. And I think even now, because, you know, it's ongoing and I think it always will be, we've sort of realized together how different my experience growing up a female in young women's versus young men's, and how I went through the seminary program and he didn't, and the massive difference in our experiences because of those programs. So he. His. I can't really speak for him because he. He had. Still has a relationship with the church, but he was a lot less affected by the truth of the history, I think, than what I was. And I couldn't stop. I couldn't not know. You know, once I had opened that box, how could I ignore that? You know, for me, I can't just say, oh, I don't want to know. That's. That's not who I am. I'm like, no, I didn't know how, why and what, when, where, you know. But, you know, my sisters and family that are still active, they are able to put it down. They're able to say, you know what? I don't want to. The church assistance assists me. I feel spiritual joy, and that's that. But that just. I couldn't do that. Not. Not when, you know, stories like the pioneers, right, who were sent to their deaths basically is reenacted as if it's some, you know, amazing, glorious story. And it's just. I couldn't participate in that. And then also the other aspect was knowing about the persecution of black members, knowing about the persecution of women, knowing about the persecution of the LGBTQIA community. I couldn't be associated with a church that. That despite saying they love everyone and don't judge the culture, does they. They. They suppress women. They try to stop women from getting educated. They try to make women get stuck in marriages by having as many babies as they can. And I I. Yeah, I just couldn't consolidate it and I just couldn't be associated with it anymore because I found the history repulsive, basically. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:03] Did it add stress to your marriage then or. I mean, it sounds like he was learning along with you, but did it, did it ever make him question whether he wanted to stay married to you? Did it ever. Or jeopardize your marriage in any way?

Tani Berlo [02:32:17] No. Obviously we've had like a lot of deep conversations. I believe it's improved our marriage significantly because I guess I've been able to deal with a lot of trauma in a. In a proper way now and so I feel like I'm healthier and more stable and I think Ammon and vice versa. We understand better now why we do certain things and we're able to kind of open up about our religious trauma and what that really has done to shape who we are and the little quirks and things that we have. But yeah, no, he was very, he was very supportive when I was going through it, but also he, he had, I guess, his. His limits. So I would learn things and sort of slowly tell him because I didn't want it. I didn't want to throw him into the spiraling abyss of losing your faith. At the same time, I kind of wanted in a way to protect him from that, which is a funny position to be in. But, yeah, I've been very, extremely lucky that it didn't. It. It has improved our marriage big time, which is probably quite rare, I would assume.

John Dehlin [02:33:48] Yeah, that's great. I think it is rare, but I'm glad that's what's happened for you.

Tani Berlo [02:33:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Has it strained your relationship with your parents or his parents or extended family? It sounds like, like maybe your siblings. It hasn't really affected your relationship there.

Tani Berlo [02:34:05] I think in the beginning there was a bit of strain. I think my parents. I think my mum might have blamed herself a bit at the beginning. Like, what did we do wrong? You know, and also like in. You see it all the time, like when you're in the church, when, when women mothers have their adults children leave the church, they kind of grieve them almost like they've died. But. And so I think my mum did grieve a little bit, sort of. But from the very beginning, my mum and dad always said what matters most is family and we care about you as a person and we will work through this. And I, when I sort of came like, opened up that, you know, I wasn't going to be coming back to church, I said to my Mum, look, I've set goals. I actually hired a counselor, her name's Chelsea Paxton, she works with specifically Mormon women that are leaving. And so we had a couple of sessions and she asked me to set some goals and my number one goal was to not be resentful. I wanted to present, I wanted to show up for my family as my authentic self with my tattoos and my red wine at Christmas and you know, my absolute love for history and facts and science and all of that. But I also wanted to be able to respect them and it's turned into, I don't. It honestly has made my relationship with my mum and dad so much more special because my mum is now able to open up about her pre church life and that sort of thing. And I think yeah, we now have a really healthy kind of relationship where she can come to me about things that in the past she would have no one to talk to about because I'm not going to judge her from a Mormon lens. But yeah, my family have been absolutely amazing. It wasn't, it was a bit difficult to get where we are now but we've made it. They're still pretty funny about like the drinking and that sort of stuff and I try to not like drink drink very much if like I try not to drink at family events and that sort of thing but otherwise they've been nothing but supportive and really just yeah there for me which is again very privileged to have parents and my sisters like that. And also I'm inside of the family who my father in law, my mother in law is no longer with us but my father in law is very much in a leaving left place and my sister in law is sort of going through, she's sort of at the same sort of phase. I would say that Ammon's at where she sometimes will go but she has a lot of concerns and issues and she's been on a mission and whatnot. But yeah, a lot of family love and support which I'm just so grateful for because I just can't imagine going through such a heavy time but then also having that family and community pressure and, and all of that along with it. So I'm lucky and I don't, I do believe, I know that that's a rare experience.

John Dehlin [02:37:55] So yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, you, I, I think you, you are more on the fortunate end and I think it's cool that you recognize that and it's cool that you state that. Yeah, but I'm, but I'm happy for you and I want to Congratulate all your family members that kind of choose love and family over dogma, basically.

Tani Berlo [02:38:17] Yes, exactly. Yeah. And, and that's, I, they do need to be like, my parents are amazing, my sisters are amazing, my in laws are amazing and they let me rent too, which is really beautiful, like I think I mentioned. But earlier at the moment I'm dealing with, you know, pretty much everyone, minus one or two people that I grew up with is, I now have now left the church and they've come to me as a safe person to open up about their experiences. And a lot of them had been abused and, and my mum's gracious enough. Like the other day I caught her crying my eyes out because one of my friends had just opened up with a very, very heavy, heavy trauma that took place when we were growing up together. And I was just so angry and my mum like let me vent, you know, I was like, how can these bishops be allowing this? And, and she, she listens and she lets me vent that out. And, and so she is just as, I think she deserves just as much, I guess. I don't know, like she's just very open minded and allows me to express what I need to express and, and she respects my boundaries and vice versa. And yeah, it's really strengthened our relationship which is, yeah. Which has really been a beautiful thing to, to go through.

John Dehlin [02:39:48] I'm so happy. Well, let me ask you this, this. So one of the weird things that you know, sometimes like with me, I was pretty much, I always felt happy and fulfilled within the Mormon experience. But then I realized, wait a minute, the church was made by me, for me, for straight, white, you know, heterosexual, middle class, educated males. What's not the love? If. Yeah. And again I've, I've learned that the church did harm me in some ways. But I mean most of my time in the Church I was loving it personally. It's always weird. But it's weird when you're taught, you know, in, in the Mormon Church that wickedness never was happiness. And I think you're taught the flip of that, that there's no true joy outside of Mormonism, that, that any hap, any, any significant happiness that happens outside of Mormonism is likely counterfeit joy that more likely comes from Satan or the adversary because you can't truly have everlasting joy without faithful Mormonism. So there's that, that we're all taught and then there's the reality that you wanted to die filling, you know, the Mormon, your mother, your Mormon motherly duties and then you have a faith crisis, which by the church's prediction would mean that you're guaranteeing for yourself a life of not only wickedness and debauchery, but also of misery. That certainly you, you know, Tani, are not going to increase your health and happiness and joy by leaving the one true church of God and of Jesus Christ. So can you talk to us about if your mental health, health, if your well being and happiness improved sort of parallel to your, your loss of faith, or are you sadder and worse off than ever? Like, where are you?

Tani Berlo [02:41:50] Yeah, so I am in the healthiest place I have been, I think in my adulthood. I, I think the funny, I think the interesting thing is, is that within Mormonism, happiness is so, I don't even know what it, how to express it, but the happiness is very superficial because everyone talks all the time about enduring trials and all that sort of stuff. So they're openly admitting constantly that they're unhappy, but, but then proclaim that they can only be happy within the church. But like every testimony meeting that you go to or whatever, sitting in any class, everyone wants to talk about enduring their trials.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] Right?

Tani Berlo [02:42:38] And, and so that was really weird, like oxymoron to me because I was like, wait, aren't if we're supposed to be happy, why are we all sitting here talking about enduring to the end? Because we're miserable. And, and obviously leaving the church, I have been so much more open to getting the help I need with my mental health. Just this year, earlier this year, I was diagnosed with adhd, mild ADHD with hyper fixation. And, and that has changed my perspective on myself so much. I take medication for my anxiety and occasional depressive episodes which barely happen anymore. And I think the biggest thing for me is realizing that happiness I very much enjoy, like the stoics and the philosophies of man, if you will, because they are open to the fact that it's such a human. Sadness is a human experience. Experience. It's something that we all will feel and that's supposed to be, that's supposed to happen. And so I think for me now, I am just not afraid to feel joy when joy is. And I'm not afraid to feel sadness when sadness is. And I'm, I'm not afraid of any emotion. Whereas in my Mormon experience, I was afraid of every emotion other than happiness. It was very toxic positivity, if you will. And I just was, yeah, obviously in a very dark place. Whereas now it's I, I am happier than ever. But I'm also Very able to admit that sometimes I. I do get really sad. And, and that's okay. Like, that's no signal of failure by any means. That's just the human experience. And, yeah, I think that's. That in turn, accepting that has made me so much more at peace with life. Because if I'm having a bad day, I'm not thinking, what have I. What have I? Have I sinned? As Is this punishment for being evil or whatever? Or is this the adversary trying to possess me instead? I'm just like, you know what? But it's really normal to have a bad day, and that's all right. So, yeah, 100% my happiness correlation has increased dramatically since my departure from the church.

John Dehlin [02:45:29] Yeah. And that, that dynamic that you just described to me. Well, it, for me, it comes out of secular Buddhism, but it's also reflected in this book written by a fellow Australian called the Happiness Trap. When you're expecting to be happy all the time, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and therefore sadness. Whereas if you just accept that sadness is part of life and that it's going to come and suffering is going to come, then oftentimes you're more content overall because you're not constantly wondering, why am I not happy? What's wrong with me? And it sounds like that's exactly what happened to you. You kind of. In the Mormon motherhood perfectionistic trap, it's not just that you maybe had way too many kids, way younger than you normally would have, and didn't maybe pursue things that you otherwise would have naturally pursued. It's that you did all the things that God and the church taught you would bring you happiness, and then you weren't happy. And then you're not just miserable, but you're also feeling like there's something wrong with you as a result. Is that, Is that fair to say?

Tani Berlo [02:46:38] Articulation of how I felt exactly. And how I do feel?

John Dehlin [02:46:43] Yeah, yeah. The Happiness Trap is a real thing.

Tani Berlo [02:46:47] Yeah, a hundred percent.

Processing Grief, Anger, and Finding Happiness

John Dehlin [02:46:49] So. So what? What? One of the common things that people feel that I felt, sometimes I still feel it. It's just like, wow, I'm gonna have to mourn and maybe even feel anger at all the opportunities that I lost, all the decisions that I would have made differently if I hadn't been been raised in this church. And that's not to deny the good things. But have you had to deal with anger or sadness or frustration over opportunities lost?

Tani Berlo [02:47:23] Yeah, I have. I. I try not to, Try not to ruminate on that. I. For me, basically, the Choices I made resulted in my two kids and my partner, who is a loving partner. And I'm very. So I've been able to be at peace with that because I do believe that if I had left the church younger or wasn't raised a woman, I don't know if I. I would. I don't know if my kids would be here. I don't know if I would have chosen motherhood. And that was a very scary thing to admit to myself. But. But I. I do think that that could be the case. And I love my children deeply, so I. I'm grateful for those things. And I also. I. It sounds so cheesy, but I'm very grateful for. For the traumatic experiences and everything because it has built. It has built me my personality and my interests and I guess my ability to empathize with others a lot more than, I guess, if I hadn't been through it. So. Yeah, I mean, it is cheesy, but I am grateful for the hard things because they. Yeah. As much as they. It's been painful, they brought me a lot of good as well. So. Yeah. And I mean, the times happened, so it's. Yeah. I don't really reflect much on what if. You know. But in saying that, I. It's an ongoing journey, so who knows what I'll think in a year's time.

John Dehlin [02:49:21] Yeah, I mean, I guess. I guess in some sense you are relatively fresh in your. In your faith journey.

Tani Berlo [02:49:29] And I'm young, too. Like, I think that maybe. Could I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] You're not 40. You're not 50. Right.

Tani Berlo [02:49:38] Well, that's it. And recently I've had an auntie and an uncle leave the church very suddenly, and they're in their 50s, and they have literally said that they sacrificed their happiness and their life for the church. And that's awful that they. It's horrible that they feel that way. But I think. Yeah, my age is sort of on my side in that way because I really have only been an adult for so long. My period of dedication to the church just simply wasn't as long as, say, someone like yourself or somebody in their 50s or 60s or 70s where they have given so many years to the church. So I think that's a privilege as well for me that I'm very, very grateful for is. Yeah. Sort of going through this in my twenties versus later in life.

John Dehlin [02:50:40] Yeah. Makes sense. Well, let me. Let me. What. I definitely. I think we've covered maybe most of your Mormon journey. What I don't want to do is, is miss out on giving you a chance to talk about your budding social media career. So really quickly I'll, I'll jump back to your Tick Tock channel. It's called Tawny Berlo. You've got, as of, you know, 10 minutes ago, 827,000 TikTok followers, 22.2 million likes. You've got a YouTube channel as well, also by the name of Tawny Berlo. But you know, as someone who's been doing TikTok for a while, it's, it's not easy to get 800,000 followers. Mormon stories has been going a while and we're like at 150,000 and we're no slouch of a, of a channel, so. But not, not just your accomplishments in terms of followers. You know, you have a, you have amount amounted. You've recorded and released a vast library of really fun and cool and interesting videos that talk about all sorts of aspects of history from you know, Rome and Greece to, you know, Chinese sinkholes to the history of, you know, or, or you know, orgasms, you know, Spanish germ, Spanish germ warfare with the Aztecs and you know, yeah, the history of vibrators. You talk about anti Semitism, literacy, the Vatican. You know, so many really cool and interesting and thoughtful videos. I just want to make sure and plug your site but also give you just a quick chance to talk about what it's been like for you to kind of become a social media creator, a content creator.

Tani as a Social Media Creator and History Educator

Tani Berlo [02:52:37] Thank you. It has been so fun. It really has been just such a pleasure to share what I'm passionate about. I adore history and I think it's just been so amazing to see. It's like it's still. First of all, I've only just really accepted the fact that I am actually a content creator because I was sort of in denial for a little while, but I just, I just shared things that I am really passionate about and yeah, accumulated this, this community. And it blows my mind how, how you impact people. Like people will reach out to me and say things, just the most incredible things like you've changed my life with your channel and, and I'm like, how, like that's so you just, I guess you just don't realize the impact that you have on people. And another part about like with my social media is that I have like a paid subscription based and, and they have become my community.

John Dehlin [02:53:55] Is that, is that Patreon? Where can people.

Tani Berlo [02:53:57] Yeah, on Patreon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:59] Okay, we'll make sure to include a link to that in the show notes.

Tani Berlo [02:54:02] Thank you. Yeah, my Patreon's become my community that I feel like I almost lost with the church community. But instead of being people that maybe you wouldn't be friends with if you didn't have the church in common, the people that I associate with every day on my Patreon and Discord that are linked are people that think like me, that want to learn like I do, that just have a hunger for knowledge, for knowledge sakes. And they're just really beautiful human beings that are there for each other. We have like a vast number of different topics that we chat about and one is mental health because, you know, and they're from all over, from Latvia to New Zealand to Canada and heaps from the USA and England and we're all experiencing really similar things and that's been really amazing to, to have that community. And really they are friends now. They're friends that get me at my worst because I love to share, you know, social media isn't real type stuff with them like my messy house or having a mental breakdown because I'm auditory stimulated too much with my ADHD and you know, and they share it in return and, and that has been so fulfilling. But yeah, like TikTok has been fun and I am slowly learning that there's so much. I'm very optimistic in the way that people always say, you know, history is doomed to repeat itself and I just don't believe that. I don't believe that history is doomed to repeat itself if we learn history and learn from it. And, and that's really my purpose of continuing to do what I do is, is teaching people in bite sized little fun amounts because you know, academia, history, it's been inside these, these university structures for so many years and, and for so much of history knowledge has been gatekept for the rich and the literate and we are living in a modern time where you can jump on my silly little TikTok channel and watch a three minute video about me talking about not only like things from, you know, like sexual taboos from the Victorian era, but also really impactful and important things like the situation that's going on in Iran at the moment where, where the people are being oppressed by, by a government. I can teach the history of Persia and, and open people's minds to the fact that you know, this empire was, was progressive and they had human rights and women had rights. And that's the truth of the Persian people, not the current state that they're in. And so it's like this fun way of. Yes, I have a whole bunch of silly stuff, but then there's a lot of stuff that's really impactful and I think just like the love of learning, I just want people that have been jaded by school or uni or maybe not having access to higher education to just love to learn. Like, it's such a joy in my life to learn and read and share. Yeah. And I want, if that. If it helps somebody, like get a passion for learning something new, then that's my job done, in my opinion.

John Dehlin [02:58:09] If it's okay, sometimes I'm inhumane. And I've made you go over three hours and haven't even given you a potty break. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to play one of your videos. If you, if you need to run and use the restroom, I want to invite you to. If you don't need to, that's fine as well.

Tani Berlo [02:58:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] This one's, this one's going to be, you know, maybe, maybe a little bit adult ish. But. And it sounds, it maybe sounds a little bit salacious, but I think it's interesting and I just want to give people a sense for the type of history be. I'm going to play a couple videos. The first one is going to be the History of Vibrators. And I'm going to play that and give you a chance to take any break you want. Is that, Is that okay, Tawny?

Tani Berlo [02:58:53] Okay. And thank you.

John Dehlin [02:58:56] Okay, I'll. I'll. I'll start it right now. This is the History of Vibrators on Tawny Berlo's Tick Tock channel.

Tani Berlo [02:59:07] Let's talk about the History of vibrators. Yeah, you heard me. You've probably all heard that story about how in the 1800s all these women were suffering from hysteria. So they'd go to their doctor to get. And then the doctors were doing it so many times a day that they got carpal tunnel and then had to invent the vibrator. Well, that's not correct. In ancient Greece, there was a philosopher and physician that theorized that the womb could just move around the body. So if a woman had a backache, it was just because the womb was playing around in the back. Anyway, the way to return the womb to where the womb needs to be is to stimulate the area. Now, in the 1800s, when they decided to be obsessed with the Greeks again, this idea kind of came back in fashion. Anyway, a guy creates this vibrating device to cure male impotence and it was specifically noted when buying this device to not use it on sexual areas, as it may cause excitement, which was not the intended use. You got to watch out for that excitement. Now, the historical women were not idiots.

John Dehlin [03:00:23] They.

Tani Berlo [03:00:23] They knew. They knew what they were doing. Okay. It's kind of a harmful stigma that I would like to debunk here and now. And not surprising to anyone, it was a woman who brought the vibrator into the context in which we use it today. Betty Dobson used to run community workshops on how to use a back massager to get yourself off. So the idea that all doctors were doing to treat hysteria in the 1800s was mass masturbation was due to a silly paper that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously, but then they turned it into a movie. So Betty Dobson, a hero.

John Dehlin [03:01:08] I love it. All right. And you're back. And you're back, Tawny.

Tani Berlo [03:01:13] I'm back. Yeah. That's that. I like to cover and do both taboo subjects of all kinds. So that's a good example of one.

John Dehlin [03:01:24] Yeah, no, it's really good. Yeah. There is a. So I. I want to say this in a, in. In a 100 respectful way. It. Your site, your channel. I think one of the reasons it has such a strong appeal is it's so fascinating. The history is so good. It's so entertaining, but there's also some. Some type of vibe or aesthetic or energy. I don't know if it's right to call it feminine. I don't. I don't want people to get mad at me if I say. If I use the word sexy, but at the same time, there is a brand or a vibe that is. That is coupled with the just the amazing, interesting, fascinating history that makes your channel extra appealing. How would you describe the thing that I'm awkwardly trying to call out in a. In a respect. In a 100 respectful way? That's my intent.

Tani Berlo [03:02:27] You're right. And I think that that's something I've actually been. In the beginning, I was very oblivious to it, to be completely honest. But I've obviously, you know, since. Since learned. I just actually did a podcast on a Neo academia podcast, and she called the. She called the title Hot girl history.

John Dehlin [03:02:49] Hot girl history. Okay.

Tani Berlo [03:02:51] Yeah. And I don't. I don't want to sound like myself. I. I think I. It's funny, actually. I think growing up in purity culture, you. You're a. You kind of. Don't. You try not to focus on what you look like. Right. If anything, you try to kind of like hide your Sexuality or your, your hotness or whatever. So I think I didn't realize that I was oblivious to that. And so I just started sharing the history. And yeah, people like, the most common question, the most common comments that I get is there's just something about the way you tell the stories that makes me listen. So I think it's like maybe just, just the. I think it's a lot of things. I think it's like the accent, the, the Aussie casualness. Like we're very like typically relaxed kind of people. I think also, like, I speak a lot on TikTok. I speak on TikTok, typically a lot more casually. In TikTok euphemisms. No, you know, using the slang of the platform, which just makes it accessible for people. But then, yeah, also, I guess, you know, my looks are a part of it and, and that's that I've learned to really embrace that. It would be something like in the past that I would be embarrassed of, I guess, but I've really lent into that and it's really been awesome, like, really working on my outward, like not being, not being afraid of my femininity or my, my sexuality or the way that I look, but embracing that and, and also showing that it's okay to love beauty and also love brains. You know what I mean? Like, they're not exclusive from each other. You can love fashion and makeup and, and the way that you look and also really enjoy the downfall of the Byzantine Empire or like, you know, whatever, whatever you want. And so, you know, and for those

John Dehlin [03:05:07] who are, for those who are able to see, many people just listen. But a lot of people watch as I'm scrolling through, you know, there'll be all these amazing, thoughtful videos, but then there'll be you in a bikini or you in a, a, in a beautiful dress or a nightgown or whatever, or swimming. And I don't know, it's. It sounds like you're basically trying to say, hey, it's okay to be smart and, and to, you know, to, to be appealing. Like, I, I'll just say as somebody who, you know, who did pursue graduate work and who values science and scholarship at academia, the thing that just always drove me nuts was how little it's appreciated and how little it's consumed. And you could write a 200 page dissertation that gets published in 12 journals and nobody ever reads it and nobody cares when it's really important stuff. And, and the stereotype of academics is that they're nerdy, that they're boring, that they're you know, unappealing. And that just seems counterproductive. If you value the life of the mind, if you value scholarship and science, then why not embrace any tour, any type of packaging or aesthetic that makes it maximally appealing? There's me making your case.

Tani Berlo [03:06:37] And I completely agree. It's. It's this like, gatekeeping of, of, of information, but then in turn, like, no one reads the information. And I think as well, like, a big thing for me is I like to, I like to rub that in. You know what I mean? Like, it's, I can look because for me, in my, like in my corporate sort of business life, people will, Instead of being like, wow, I really enjoyed your thesis, they'll say, wow, you're really pretty. Or instead of being like, wow, you have a really interesting view on this historical topic, they'll say, wow, you look really hot today. And, and that's just, it's, it's just a funny experience that. And, and yeah, I think that duality is hilarious to me and so I like to play on that duality. And also I know that unfortunately we do live in a society where people care a lot about the way that they look and take that, you know, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But I know that young girls will look up to, you know, your Kardashians or these beauty models and. But like, can we now can we also celebrate role models that are knowledgeable and, you know, doing things in other areas? And I think to appeal to the, that audience of young girls, it sort of almost, I don't know, like, draws them in. And I, I have a mostly female audience. I think it's like 85% female.

John Dehlin [03:08:27] Wow, that's so cool.

Tani Berlo [03:08:29] Yeah, yeah. And you know, I have, and they are, they have this. They have the interest in beauty and fashion and all of that, and then they get to learn some really amazing things alongside of it, you know, so,

John Dehlin [03:08:47] yeah, as the father of daughters, I love, I love intelligent role models for my kids. I love it.

Tani Berlo [03:08:55] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:56] And, and having said that. Oh, go ahead.

Tani Berlo [03:09:00] Oh, sorry. I was just saying, really breaking down the barriers in my own mind, like when you're scrolling. I saw there was one video there where I posted in a one piece and I remember that day, I, like, was so panicked to post that on the Internet because I thought it was just way out of the, you know, it was probably the, like the scandalous thing I've ever posted on my TikTok before. And, and it's good for me to push my Boundaries. I think out of purity culture, I, I use it as a tool of like, you know, getting that out of my system, I think. And yeah, in a way that feels good for me.

John Dehlin [03:09:42] Yeah. If, if we covered earlier in this episode, sort of toxic purity culture, sexual shame, and all the negativities that surround that, it seems like something else that you're trying to do is project body positivity and even sex positivity and even female empowerment and, and sexual empowerment in a way that is, is maybe reparative and healing and also inspiring others. Is that, is that what you're kind of trying to say?

Tani Berlo [03:10:17] Yeah, exactly, yeah, 100%. You know, like, I'm a mom. I've got a cesarean sky, I've got stretch marks. I. You also. Yeah, there they are.

John Dehlin [03:10:28] So tell us this video. I'm showing this video right now. It's, it's a video. We've talked about beauty. This is a video where you're literally showing stretch marks. Do you want to talk about that decision? Grinch. It's basically a Grinch clip of you showing your stretch marks on your stomach, right?

Tani Berlo [03:10:48] Yeah, it's like, I think again, sort of just to. You can be beautiful with imperfections. And I think social media has been so fake for so long, I think with like Instagram being the, the king of, of. Of social media platforms for a long time. But TikTok is, is, is sort of flies in the face a lot of the time with that and people really resonate with realism, you know, just. And I'm a very open book type person. I have kind of don't really care at all. I've come to a place where I don't really care what people think of me. And I just, yeah, when I give, give people the peace of mind. Like, but like you said, body positivity, women empowerment, allyship to the LGBTQ community and just making people feel comfortable in their own skin, you know, because we all deal with that. You know what I mean? It's just, it's a part of, of we all deal with it, you know, and I think it's also hilarious. So I like, yeah, I like the duality of that, of just being like, look, I've got, I got the stretch marks. I've got all the things that everybody probably deals with. And that doesn't mean that you're any less attractive or beautiful or have less self worth. And I also believe that it's very anti perfectionistic and I really embrace that now in my life. In my experience, there is A very. There is a lot of pressure to look and be an act a certain way in the church. I think Utah's like the. The largest plastic surgery state in the United States. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the recent stats, and I think that that probably stems from perfectionism. I've experienced it myself. And so my family and I like to be unperfect and. And still be like this doesn't make me any less, you know, beautiful or less intelligent. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:21] So I love it.

Tani Berlo [03:13:21] It, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's it. Sums it up.

John Dehlin [03:13:25] All right, let me show one more video. I'm going to show the video on Spanish germ warfare against the Aztecs. Is that all right?

Tani Berlo [03:13:33] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [03:13:33] All right, here we go. A history fact that just gets you choked up every time you have to tell it. I'll go first.

Tani Berlo [03:13:40] In the 1500s, the Aztec Empire had a estimated 16 million people. People in their population. Now, around this time, the Spaniards were trying to conquer Mesoamerica. They came in to a city near the ocean, Tenochtalan that had a population of approximately 200, 000 people. And they provided blankets that had been used on children that died from smallpox. They purposefully spread smallpox and measles amongst the people of the city, stood back and waited for them to all succumb to the virus and die, and then declared the city their own. This biological warfare was used time and time again to conquer Mesoamerica. And not only Mesoamerica. This is the part that chokes me up. In North America. America, when it was being colonized, there are records of people using this biological warfare to attempt to wipe out the Native American populations. One commander wrote down. I gave them two blankets and a handkerchief straight from the children's smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. Spain did. It didn't conquer Mesoamerica because they were bigger, tougher, and better at battle. Hell no. They took it because they purposefully spread a disease that they knew would cause horrific, painful deaths of millions of people.

John Dehlin [03:15:25] Very sobering.

Tani Berlo [03:15:27] Yeah, yeah, it's. That's it. History is sobering. That's the. I think that's the word for it. Yeah. Lots. Lots of indigenous cultures succumb to that exact tactic, actually.

John Dehlin [03:15:48] Yeah. And as an indigenous person, I'm sure that is close to home.

Tani Berlo [03:15:53] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:15:57] Well, I don't want to leave on a sour note because there's so many fun and interesting and fascinating and entertaining videos as well, but that, that one Just that one hit me, you know, in the central place. And so I just wanted to share.

Tani Berlo [03:16:13] Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And that's. My channel is a little whiplashy sometimes. So I'll go from talking about, you know, harrowing history through to. Yeah, yeah. Fun videos and silly stuff and just keeping it real because, you know, like I said, I think life is all about the yin and the yang, if you will. The duality, there's sad and there's happy and. Yeah, so that is sort of me. And my channel is very much an extension of my views on that.

Tani's Future Plans and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [03:16:45] So what can we expect in your future for those who are either current Tawny Berlo fans or aspiring or will become Tawny Berlo fans after this episode? Do you have any plans or hopes or dreams for the future?

Tani Berlo [03:17:01] Yeah, I do. I. I'm about to start a jewelry brand based on mainly female historical figures. So, like, I'm wearing one, if you're watching of Athena, who was a Greek goddess. So, yeah, like, just jewelry that people can wear that has meaning, you know, historical meaning to it. So that's something that's currently being done. And I'm. I can. I want to continue growing my. My page and keep sharing history and knowledge and I'd like to eventually, you know, write a book or. And just sort of expand. Yeah, expand my. Get my knowledge out in different ways, different media formats. And. Yeah, I would like. My purpose, I believe, like we sort of spoke about, is empowerment, is letting people learn about history to, I guess, live a deeper, more meaningful life. And. Yeah, and so hopefully, you know, this time next year, my page will be bigger and maybe I'll be writing a book or. I'd love to give a TED Talk actually one day that. That I would love to do that. So hope. Fingers crossed.

John Dehlin [03:18:30] That's awesome. Have you. Have you made any videos yet on Mormon history, on Joseph Smith or any of that stuff?

Tani Berlo [03:18:37] Yeah, I will be making videos on them. I have done a couple of YouTube videos on Christian history, and I've done a couple of videos on Egyptomania where Joseph Smith is mentioned with his incorrect Book of the Dead translations. But, yeah, it's been a little bit of a fear factor topic for me, but I'm in a place now where I. I think I can provide good quality history that really needs to be shared. So, yeah, and this interview has really been the debut for that. You know, I. This is me. I've shared my story now, so there's no going back. The Internet is forever.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] That's true. Well, you're welcome. You know, we're. I'm so glad to have been made aware of you. It's really an honor for me to be able to have you share your story on the podcast. I'm so grateful for all you're doing. I love history, so I'm so grateful for all you're doing to spread the love and appreciation of history. And I'm just super eager to see you do Big Brother, write beautiful things in the coming months and years.

Tani Berlo [03:19:59] Thank you so much. This is the. Being on this podcast like Mormon Stories in my journey has, it's just such a massive impact on me. So just being on here is, like, mind blowing for me. So thank you as much for having me.

John Dehlin [03:20:19] All right.

Tani Berlo [03:20:20] Right.

John Dehlin [03:20:20] All right, Tawny, so if people want to check out what you do, there's the Tick Tock channel, Tawny burlo. There's a YouTube channel also, Tawny Berlo. And there's a Patreon at Tawny Berlo. That's T A N I B E R L O. And of course, if you join the Patreon, you can join her Discord channel as well. All right, Tawny, anything else before we Anything else before we go?

Tani Berlo [03:20:50] No, just thank you and yeah, just reach out on pretty much any socials if you want to. And yeah, just really happy to have met with you and had a chat.

John Dehlin [03:21:02] Yeah. And it'd be fun to do a, like a Mormon Stories event in Australia or a Thrive event in Australia. I'd love to meet Ammon and I'd love you. I'd love you to meet Simon Southerton. I'd love you to meet Gina Colvin from New Zealand. And it would be fun to kind of do some sort of meetup. So maybe you, you know, sometimes you talk about the gods in your Tick Tock channel. Maybe the gods will conspire to get us all together down under. What do you say?

Tani Berlo [03:21:30] Come to the Southern hemisphere? Yes. Why? Let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:21:37] All right, thanks so much, Tanya. Thanks so much.

Tani Berlo [03:21:40] Thank you. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [03:21:41] All right, and thanks, everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We hope you've enjoyed today's episode. Again, support Tani. And if you want to support Mormon Stories, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and your support will keep us going. Please subscribe to us if you're on YouTube. We want to try and reach 100,000 subscribers sometime in the next year or two. We can do it if all of you YouTube subscribers will. Well, YouTube viewers will subscribe. Spread the word, be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.