Introduction and Marc's Background

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 9, 2021, three days after the birth date of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or the day Jesus was born, according to, you know, how I was taught growing up. Anyway, just kidding. I'm John Dehlin, and I am so excited for today's episode. This is the type of interview I have wanted to do forever and. And I kind of have my golden interviewee who I get to interview about it. Today we are interviewing Mark Osland. Mark, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Marc Oslund [00:00:38] Thanks, John. I'm so excited to be here. So excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] And I'll just give you guys the preview. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to, number one, be in the church education system as a seminary teacher? You know, and we've had John McClay on, you know, talking about what it was like being in Seminary Institute when he was married to Brooke. And, you know, that was like, a really groundbreaking episode. And of course, we had Grant Palmer on when he talked about being in the Seminaries 2 program. But, but, like, imagine being in the in CES. I know I should say we had Jeremy Runnels on talking about letter to a CES director. What we've never had is somebody number one, who was kind of like, you know, over the past 10 years in CES working as a CES instructor. But it gets cooler. Like, think about starting around 2013, kind of two years before everything broke, right as the essays are starting to appear, right as the Mormon Internet is really getting going. And then, you know, boom, Kelly's excommunicated. I'm excommunicated. And then dealing with the CBS letter comes out. And then dealing with all the aftermath between, let's just say 2015 and, and, you know, 2019, 2020, when you lose your faith as a seminary teacher in Utah. And then you've got to figure out what to do, how to leave this job, can you even get a new job? And then what? You know, when you've built your marriage and your kids and your whole family and your whole life on this career, what the freak do you do then? That is today's episode, and we're interviewing Mark Osland, Summit. Probably most of you won't have heard of Mark, but he's super cool. He grew up in California. We're going to figure out what made him convert to the Mormon Church. As a dude growing up in California, he ends up playing baseball at byu. And then, of course, after he Graduated, becoming a seminary teacher for CES and doing all of that during this really volatile time where the Mormon Church is trying to modernize and, and deal with the Internet. So that's what this is like. Buckle up. This is your multi hour interview and it's going to be really important. So without any further ado, Mark Osland, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Marc Oslund [00:03:07] I'm just so excited. And yeah, the story, there's so many twists and turns and yeah, somebody asked me, how long do you think it'll be? I'm like, I don't know, man, we can go for days. So, yeah, I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Anything you want to correct about the intro? No, you nailed it. Add to the intro.

Marc Oslund [00:03:22] No, you nailed it perfectly. I'm honored.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Okay. All right, all right. Well, here we go. So I don't think, you know, you're not going to be telling us this multi generational pioneer heritage kind of stuff. So my big question to you is what the freak would cause, like an intelligent, you know, human born in the US From Cali to freaking, especially your baseball star, like, to join the freaking Church of Jesus Christ of Latter. But take us back to wherever you want to start because there's usually a story that leads to someone converting.

Marc Oslund [00:03:54] 100%, yeah. 100%, yeah. You nailed it. And so I'm glad you think I was intelligent. Looking back, I'm like, I don't think I was that intelligent. It's probably part of it, you know, so when I think back, and maybe even before I start this, like, I have a lot of emotion, meaning I sometimes get angry. And it's, it's not because I'm a. I'm angry at Mormon people in particular. I think there's maybe a handful of people in this whole story that I'm going to feel specifically angry towards. Like, I don't know if I ever want to really see you, but the majority, like 99.9% of Mormon people, I just feel super compassionate for. And, and I have a lot of friends, family members, so that I want to say that off the bat, but yeah, like, I, I joined the church in 20. Or, sorry, 2008. 2007. Right. Right. At the end of 2007, December. How did I get there? Well, my dad was Mormon, but I had no idea, like, no clue at all. Didn't say a word to me till I told him I was gonna get baptized.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Okay, so where are you living? Where were you born?

Marc Oslund [00:04:52] In Torrance, California.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Where is that?

Marc Oslund [00:04:53] For those who don't know, it's in the south bay, so 15 minutes south of LAX.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:04:58] And so.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] So that's like la, la, la proper.

Marc Oslund [00:05:00] The heart of LA, man. Yeah. So like, today, the Dodgers got their World Series rings. I'm pumped. Like, I'm LA through and through, you know, and I miss it.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] I gotta. I gotta shout out to Alan Mount, who I know is a huge Dodgers fan, and. And Scott Purvis, who's a huge Giants fan. My condolences.

Marc Oslund [00:05:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Because I know he hates the Dodgers.

Marc Oslund [00:05:20] Sure. I don't know of your followership. Like, I don't know how many people are jazz fans, but, like, the Lakers are my team, so.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:05:26] I want to alienate people. Like, I. I'm cordial, you know? But anyway, I. Born and raised in Torrance, lived in a part of Torrance called North Torrance

John Dehlin [00:05:33] that was this scary la.

Marc Oslund [00:05:34] No, no, no, no. We lived like where. Where we grew up. I mean, we're. We're five minutes from the beach. Right. So you feel the ocean breeze. I remember football practices feeling like, oh, two days are so hard. 75 degrees. And the coach is like, hey, turn to the ocean and get the air in your lungs. I'm like, that's not normal. You know, and super spoiled and just so suburban. Suburban, Upper.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Upper middle class, kind of.

Marc Oslund [00:05:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:05:59] I mean, the houses there are a million dollars. They're 1400 square feet and not pretty, but they're a million dollars.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:06:04] So, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a lot different than where we live right now in af, but. Yeah. So my dad was Mormon, my grandma was Mormon, so my dad was adopted. My dad was born and raised in the church, but I'm telling you, I knew literally nothing. The only experiences I had with Mormonism, there was two before moving to a different part of our city. The first one was my dad. He's a big dude. So, you know, I'm 6 5, my dad's 6 3. He's probably like 280 at the time. And we had a little stained glass window. And I remember sitting there, I don't. We were watching shows or playing trucks or whatever when I was young. And we see two figures in white shirts, you know, not angels, but, like, they're missionaries, you know. So we get a knock on the door and my dad, this big dude, he like, gets really shocked. Everybody get down. It's the Mormons. I'm like, what? Like, never even heard the word Mormon. I had no idea. I don't know what that is. And so he stands up, 6 foot 3280 jumps, rolls over the couch.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Huge thud.

Marc Oslund [00:07:02] It's evident that we're home. And he's like, everyone, shut up. It's the Mormons. And we're all just like, what are you talking about? You know, that was my first introduction to Mormonism. I have no idea who they are, what they are. The next one is, I was playing catch. Like, I was. I was a baseball player, and in this home, I was playing catch with my mom. And somebody pulls up, and again, they're from the church. I think it was a home teacher. They pulled up and said something to my mom, and my mom said, oh, that's the Mormons. That's all I knew.

Growing Up Near the Beach in California

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Wow.

Marc Oslund [00:07:33] That's all I knew.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:07:35] Then we moved to a different part of our city. And then, you know, I start watching south park and I start seeing other things and hearing about Mormons, and I'm like, okay, so Mormons are weird, right? You know, the same thing that you've. That we've always been told Mormons are a cult. Joseph Smith had lots of wives. That's basically all I knew.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] You knew that?

Marc Oslund [00:07:52] I knew that after watching south park and talking to a couple people about Mormonism, you know, and then find out, you know, long run. Wow. South Park's actually right. But anyway, I felt just very off about Mormons. I also had this impression that Mormons were, like, Quakers. So, like.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Or, like Amish.

Marc Oslund [00:08:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Or Mennonites.

Marc Oslund [00:08:11] Exactly. Like, build your own furniture. Like, don't watch tv. Like, it was kind of. I've. I've combined Amish, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons altogether. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Weird.

Marc Oslund [00:08:22] Yeah. And old.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Old school weird.

Marc Oslund [00:08:25] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:08:26] Yeah. And so many of these just misconceptions. And. And so, I mean, religion is just not a thing. Where we're growing up, I know people were religious, but, like, it's. It's la. Like, we're not focused on religion. We don't talk about God. We had churches. It just wasn't a thing. We didn't worry about it with my friends. Growing up through, you know, middle school, I never ever talked about religion until my mom got baptized in a Baptist church. And I went to this Baptist church, and I remember thinking, like, okay, we go to Sunday school and the. Whoever they were. I don't even know who they were. I was too young to know. And my mom is like, you know, up front in this, like, tank, and she gets dunked, and my dad was there. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. We go to Sunday school.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] They're like.

Marc Oslund [00:09:10] They start quizzing me on Bible stories. I don't know anything about the Bible. No clue. And then I start feeling really bad because I feel like an idiot, and I don't know about Moses and Noah. And so then I go home. I'm like, I'm never going back there. So that's. That's all of religion for me. Like, that's it. That's all I knew. And my mom said, like, hey, if you pray and believe in God, you'll be okay. Didn't teach me how to pray. We said, like, family wrote prayers. You know, it was more just like a family unity thing with my grandparents, but it was never like, dear Heavenly Father, you know, the Mormon way. So that's all of my background up until my junior year of high school.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] So. So just to. Just to kind of weave the baseball stuff in. It's not easy to play Division 1 athletics.

Marc Oslund [00:09:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] So talk. Talk about kind of what, you know, led to that.

Marc Oslund [00:10:03] Yeah. Thanks. I. I just love sport. I feel like it was such a way for me and my dad to connect. Some of my favorite memories were just like, going to Dodger Stadium, being with my dad, talking about Dodger games, you know, Dodgers playing on tv. The most familiar thing in my entire upbringing was coming home after school after what have you. You know, practice and the TV being on and Vin Scully narrating Dodger games. And it was just such a family thing. Our whole family is athletic. So I played baseball, basketball, you know, football, soccer, my sister, soccer, softball, basketball, my brother, basketball, football, baseball. Like, this was just our family. And so, you know, we'd play catch and we'd. We'd hit and we'd have a ton of fun. And I just fell in love with it. And I was good at it. I was tall. I was big for my age. I think people expected me to be, you know, a leader because just solely from my height, I don't think I was more mature. I think it forced me to grow up really fast and. And I was good. I liked. I liked hitting. I liked throwing. I wasn't. I wasn't afraid of the ball. I threw hard. And so we just kind of kept honing those things because of my natural talents and my, you know, my love and my passion. It gave me more opportunities. And so I started playing on travel ball teams, and we'd go all around Southern California.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Which sports?

Marc Oslund [00:11:26] Baseball. Baseball was the main one. I got offered to play soccer, like a club soccer thing. A week after club. I Got offered to play club baseball.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:11:34] And so, so you kind of had

John Dehlin [00:11:36] to pick for sure.

Marc Oslund [00:11:37] And I chose baseball and I'm glad. I do wonder what would have happened if I would have chosen soccer. What would have happened? I love basketball, but I, I wasn't a good dribbler. I, I was, I'm tall, I'm 6 5. But like I'd be a guard, you know, in college and I couldn't shoot so that wasn't going to be my future football does play in, but not till later because I was, I was heavy. Like I was man in fifth grade five five, like 150 pounds, big dude. So I didn't play tackle football. Cause I would've had to play up like four age like with ninth graders or eighth graders. And my dad didn't want me getting hurt. Cause the development is so different, you know. So we continue to play and I just kept getting more and more opportunities. Um, we, I went on different teams. We'd go to Cooperstown, New York for tournaments. We'd go to Junior Olympics in Arizona. I, I performed really well at the Junior Olympics. So they put me on a trial team, the top 64 youth under 14. We went out to Florida and I was on this trial team where they're gonna have an opportunity for 32 people to go to Venezuela and play in, you know, a national thing. And I was number 33. I was the last one that was cut. And they told me, they're like, hey, we want you to have an amazing year. Go focus on football is right before my freshman year and we're gonna be watching you. And so it was just something I was always good at. I felt like baseball was my long term love, like slow and steady and football was my passion. And so all of this I just had. My dad invested a ton of money and I was grateful for it. You know I got scholarship to BYU eventually, but I think my dad and mom ended up paying for it before. Right. Just with all the supplies, clubs and trips. Yeah. I mean thousands and thousands of dollars and some really cool memories and, and a lot of success. A lot of my teammates and former people I've played against in the major leagues right now.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] Really?

Marc Oslund [00:13:33] Yeah. So Chris Bryant, who's like the top, he's like rookie of the year, then mvp. We played against him at San Diego.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Really?

Marc Oslund [00:13:39] Yeah, he, he was the only guy that was straight up better than me. Like people. I, I mean I played against, you know, Matt Carpenter who won the World Series with, with the Cardinals. We played against Aaron Hicks, who's the center fielder for the New York Yankees. I mean, some good guys. Trevor Bauer, he's on the Dodgers now. We played against him. So, like a ton of dudes that are, that are just. I mean, me and my brother went through it. Probably 30 people that we played against or played with are in the major leagues. And so I was right there. Right. I felt like I was right there in it with them. And we moved actually from North Torrance to West Torrance because West High had like a great baseball team. And so we really wanted to be at West High, make sure that I had the best opportunities.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] You moved houses to be in the school district?

Marc Oslund [00:14:22] Yeah, and we wanted to step up. It was a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] That's commitment.

Marc Oslund [00:14:25] Yeah, for sure. So, like, we were really grateful and we loved West High and it was again, right by the beach. So it's a, it's a nice benefit for the family. But. But yeah, baseball was fundamental for me, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] Okay. But not religion.

Marc Oslund [00:14:38] No, never.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:14:39] There's. It just, it just wasn't priority. Right. Family was hanging out, eating food, watching shows, sports.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] And it sounds like you had a pretty hep. I mean, I don't want to, I'm not trying to dig, but it sounds like you had a happy family life. 100%, like healthy, happy, generally moral, productive family.

Marc Oslund [00:14:59] 100%. Like my mom and dad are so good.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] They.

Marc Oslund [00:15:02] So we have a two year old now. And the way that I feel for him, I think I really get how my parents have always felt for me. Like, they just love me so much and they love all their kids. My dad told me right before we were about to have our two year old, he's like, Mark, you will never, you, you won't know what I felt seeing you for the first time. I'm the oldest of three. You won't know what I felt until you hold your kid. And I like, I got it. And I felt like I understood their love for me on a totally different level. They, they believed in us. Like they just knew they gave us every opportunity educationally, athletically, with homes. I mean, my dad worked super hard. My dad was at every practice, he was at every game. I mean, our baseball games are at 3pm so that means my dad has to drive to downtown LA at 4am, 5am, work, come right from work, right to our games, right to our practices. Same with my mom. She would drop off, you know, I would forget my bag for baseball all the time and she'd come and drop it off and provide food and we'd always have people over at our house and they're just so loving and welcoming. The only challenge that I ever really had growing up was my feeling of not being good enough. And the irony is that I had every support in the world. Parents, grandparents. It came because I was big, because I was forced to grow up really quick. And it happened my seventh grade year. So I'm a chubby kid, big kid. Sixth grade, we had a PE teacher. And again, I had my. I had baby fat. I was a chubby kid. Come back to seventh grade and it's. This so sounds so stupid, but for, you know, a 12, 13 year old, however old I was at the time, it was. This was like the moment that forced me to grow up. So I had. There's these shoes that were so dumb looking back, they're called soaps. And they have like this little plastic piece that like right on the, on the midsole so you could like go and run and grind on like on ledges, on curbs. And I had a big foot at the time. I was like size 13. And they only made them up to size 12. So all my friends had these soaps and I had like. I just wanted so bad to have cool shoes. And I remember going. And my mom was like, I know they're not the same, but are you sure you're gonna wear them? Like, you can't run very fast in them. Cause she knew that I was athletic. I'm like, no, mom, I gotta get them. They're cool. They're airwalks. And I remember when I moved out to go to college, the box was up in my room unused, because I just so badly wanted to fit in, you know, And I. One of these days, I'm after school, seventh grade year, my friends are hanging out wearing their dumb shoes, and I'm just kind of standing around because I can't do what they're doing. And our PE teacher from the year before comes up and he's like, mark, so good to see you. I'm like, oh, hey, nice to see you too. And he says, I haven't seen you since last year. I see you lost your baby fat. And I'm like, what? Like, I. I realized I was wearing like a goofy Hawaiian shirt, right? My hair was like slicked back. I just looked like a total dork. And I saw my friends that were around and kind of laughing at me. And that was the first time I became self aware that maybe the image that my family always had about me being so loved and lovable and Good wasn't how others saw me. And in that moment, seeing so many people just looking around and just laughing and feeling so self conscious, I determined I would never, ever let myself feel that again. Well, how would I do that? I would be the top dog. I'd be the most popular person at school. I'd do whatever the cool kids are doing. And immediately my grades plummeted. Why? Because cool kids don't do good in school. I had a teacher who looked right at me, was doing tutoring after school. She's like, mark, I know you know this. I was a 4.0 kid, you know? I know you know this. Why aren't you doing this? I was like, I don't know. And everything changed. Right. I started noticing, you know, friends at that age in la, people start smoking, drinking. I wouldn't do it that young, Right? But freshman year, again, ninth graders or with 12th graders, man, like, these people are about to go to college. They're 18 years old. I want to be cool. They thought I was cool. So what do you do? You got to drink, you got to smoke, you got to hang out with the cheerleaders. Right. You got to be a part of this. And so I grew up really, really fast, but I was always a kid at heart, and. And I only recently have started looking back and saying, wow, like, I really so much changed because I just wanted to feel like I belonged to.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Mm.

Marc Oslund [00:19:43] So, yes, long story short, my family was overwhelmingly supportive. And the only thing that caused that was that sense of shame that was not ever brought on by them.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Yeah. So you kind of committed in your high school years to kind of being popular and fitting in 100 and doing whatever it took to be popular. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:20:02] And I watched the show, like, watch any stupid high school drama. Right. If you call them chick flicks or whatever, just watch any of them. Who's the most popular person? It's always the quarterback, right. So I said, well, what do I got to do? I'm going to be the quarterback. So that became my goal. My freshman year. It was my first year ever playing tackle football, and I was like, you know, I played with the freshman team. Then my soft sophomore year comes around. And by the way, my freshman year, I played varsity baseball as a freshman. As a freshman, Yep.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] That's not normal, right?

Marc Oslund [00:20:30] No, it was.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] It wasn't in my high school.

Marc Oslund [00:20:31] Yeah, no, it was. It was rare. And I mean, we had people that were going. We. People going to school in Hawaii, Pepperdine. I mean, top, top, top people in the whole area. And I'M playing as a starter on. On the varsity baseball team. So what do we do after? Well, we go to parties. I'm 14 years old, 15 years old, and these, you know, 18 year olds hanging out with their girlfriends and whatever, drinking and so I'd be there. I'd be there right there with them. And in my heart, I knew I was still that little kid, but I also believe I really had to fit in. Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] What position were you?

Marc Oslund [00:21:02] I was. So I ended up pitching at byu.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:21:05] But all through high school, I was a first baseman and a pitcher.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Okay. Yep.

Marc Oslund [00:21:09] So I thought I was gonna. I thought I was gonna hit at byu, but they didn't let me in. I was surprised.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] They wouldn't let you what?

Marc Oslund [00:21:14] They wouldn't let me hit. I felt like you. I thought that they were gonna have me be a position player too, but I mean, I was. I was a decent pitcher, but still.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] So when you. So when you. I'm not a huge baseball fan. I know it's different in National League versus America. Correct. At byu, if you pitched, you could win.

Marc Oslund [00:21:29] Yeah, you could. I mean, hypothetically, but most of the time, pitchers are like non athletes. You know, they always gave us a hard time, like, oh, pitchers are not athletic. I'm like, I'm more athletic than all you guys. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] So, okay, so you were saying parties and stuff.

Marc Oslund [00:21:43] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Freshman year parties, Getting in quarterback.

Marc Oslund [00:21:46] Yeah, exactly. And so I remember, like, hanging out with, like, the senior cheer captain as a freshman. Right. And like, they were friends with somebody who's playing basketball at a different school in our city who ended up playing at University of North Carolina. So I'm like, I'm in the heart of, like, whoever again, remember, these are in quotes. Cool people.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:22:07] Because we're all high schoolers and we all think we're cooler than we are. But I thought, man, I'm. I'm really in it right now. And so I succeed. You know, I do well my freshman year on varsity baseball, sophomore year, so it's football season. Right. And start training for that. And I tell my coach, hey, I want to be. I want to be a quarterback. And they knew I had a good arm. And so because I was a baseball player, I was like, right there with another senior. He ended up getting the starting job, which obviously infuriated me because I'm like, I'm competitive to my core. Kobe Bryant was like my role model, and Kobe was like, no, Take no prisoners. And only looking back do I see, like, there is. Kobe hated losing more than he liked winning. And I realized I hated losing more than I like winning. But it was to cover the deep wounds of feeling vulnerable. Like when I was a 14 year old, being laughed at, that was the core. The core was I never, ever, ever want to feel vulnerable. And losing was vulnerable. And so that's why I just, I didn't lose in high school, right? Like, I literally didn't lose a single game I pitched in high school at BYU. I only lost three games total out of, out of, man. I was 10 and 1 my freshman year, and then I was 8 and 2 my sophomore year before I got hurt. So I just, I just, when I play, I don't lose because it was, it was shame, right? Just obviously not healthy, but it was utilized. Coaches loved it. And so this guy gets the starting job. We go to Santa, my first varsity game. I've literally, I've only played one year of football. I've never played quarterback. Our quarterback gets hit by somebody and punches a dude and gets thrown out. So now I wasn't planning on being the starter. They put me in and it was like a whirlwind, right? I'm just like, I have no idea what's happening. And we ended up losing that game. I started the second game because my, my coach got kicked or my quarterback got kicked out and so loved it. We ended up losing that one too. And like I just said, so I don't lose in baseball, but I did in football and it was like devastating. Eventually, like, the quarterback comes back and I'm, we're still neck and neck and, and, and seeing what we can do to, you know, get me in the starting job. Eventually they said, hey, we want to get you more snaps. So they move me back down to JV and I get hurt. Um, I, I just like planted my leg. They roll into my knee, I tear my knee. I'm in a ton of pain, right? Tear my MCL and my meniscus and it just hurting. So at this point, I'd already been at parties and a couple of my friends were like, hey, this might help. And so they introduced me to weed. I'm like, oh, okay, let's, we can do this. And obviously it helps, right? For different reasons too. And, and that was kind of like my introduction. That was just kind of who I was. And it wasn't a thing. It wasn't, it wasn't a big deal. It was just like, that's what you do. Like, my neighbors, everybody had parties. Their parents knew. They, they just like, just don't drink and drive, don't do something stupid. But the feeling of being like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's what high schoolers do was very felt by me. And like, yeah, we make dumb mistakes, but my family is always like, mark, come on. Like, just don't be dumb. Never shame, never guilt.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] That's so great. Yeah, it's so good.

Marc Oslund [00:25:20] Oh, dude, the best. Like, oh, yeah. I hope I can be half the parent to my kid that they were to us. Like, they were just nothing but love, you know? So I rehab. I placed sophomore year of varsity baseball. We ended up losing in, like, the quarterfinals. Um, I wasn't pitching. I, I, I, I don't want to get the wrong impression. I'm, I might come off arrogant. I'm really not. Like, I, I don't want to portray that. I'm like someone, someone that's better than I am. I'm, I really am just like a big hurt kid that was fortunate with some, some, you know, natural talents. Right. Junior year comes around. I'm the starter on the, on the football team. Our running back was amazing. He ended up playing at University of Southern California with Pete Carroll. I mean, so he's, he's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] What was his name?

Marc Oslund [00:26:05] His name's Ryan Bauckham. He was, he ended up playing cornerback and he got hurt. He was driving a motorcycle down the 405 or the 110 and ended up getting hurt. So, yeah, a mess. But yeah, like, man, we, we were good. We tied one game to one of our rivals and we went all the way to the state championship for the first time since, man, 1982.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Is there like four a five ace?

Marc Oslund [00:26:26] Yeah. So we were division, I think they call it division three. Okay. So it's opposite in California, the, the division one's the top two, three, and it goes backwards.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] So medium sized school.

Marc Oslund [00:26:36] Yeah, for sure, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] Still super competitive.

Marc Oslund [00:26:38] Definitely. We had probably 2,000 people at our school and we had four high schools in my city.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:26:42] Public highs, and we had a couple other private ones. So super competitive. I, I consider ourselves to be one of the better ones in the area. And man, it was awesome that year, though. That was the year when religion came into play.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:26:55] And knowing all of that about my background, where I was kind of, you know, getting involved with drugs, I wasn't, I wasn't a druggie. I wasn't like an alcoholic, because recreational use. Exactly, exactly. And of course, there's stupid moments, you know, getting blackout or whatever, those things aren't good. But that's what high schoolers do.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Yeah. To learn how to manage it.

Marc Oslund [00:27:14] Exactly, right. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:27:16] And we learned.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Right?

Marc Oslund [00:27:17] We. We definitely learned the hard way. And so my first day of school, junior year, there's this girl that I had not seen before. And I still remember today what she was wearing. She was wearing, like, you know, a yellow shirt, jeans, and rainbow sandals. Because it's la, right? And I'm walking from our high school's, like, outdoor. The buildings are separated by just, like, green because we don't have to have everything inside. Being in Utah, where it's cold, you know, you have to do that. And I remember walking from one building to another, and we crossed paths, and something about her. She was tall. She was like, five, ten, Polynesian. Half Polynesian. So tan. And I was just drawn to her. I was like, who is this person? Right? And eventually, like, my friends tell me who she is. Her name's Faith. You know, Faith's playing volleyball at west now. She came from Redondo High, which is just, you know, a block up the road or two blocks up the road. I get to know her a little bit, and I, at that point, felt like I was kind of like the man. I'm like, no, I'm. I'm like. Like, I'm a junior now. I'm the starting quarterback. I'm a. I'm the best player on our baseball team. Like, I'm. I'm it. And one day, Faith, like, walks right up to me at lunch and was like, hey, do you want to come over my house today? I'm like, what? Like, it was so straightforward. I was just not prepared for that because I thought. I thought I was really cool. I knew now, looking back, I wasn't, but I thought I was. And Faith was very direct. So I came over to Faith's house, and we hung out. Faith's super cool, laid back, really good family, and just really enjoyed it. Eventually, Faith and I kept hanging out more and more and more. And, you know, one day we had. We have just beaten a team that we hadn't beaten in years from Manhattan beach called Miracosta. And I am talking to Faith after the game. We were just texting, you know, back in the day, when you don't get free texts, and I'm texting, and I'm like, you know, we're talking about how good things are. And Faith kind of says, hey, do you want to hang out with me this weekend? Oh, for sure. So I go over to her house on Saturday, come home, we're texting again Saturday night. She says, hey, do you want to hang out with me tomorrow? Yeah, for sure. She says, cool, well, you got to come to church first. Church? What. What do I wear? She's like, white shirt, tie. So. Right. Faith's Mormon. White shirt, tie, button up. I'm like, wait, I thought. Thought you wore, like, bonnets and, like, you know, whatever. She's like, we're not Quakers, man. Like, and so, literally, that's what I knew, right? So I go over to her house, and Sunday morning, and I go to church for the first time in our ward in Redondo beach, and I see people I've known. My wife now was actually in that ward. We knew each other since fifth grade. And.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Oh, wow.

Marc Oslund [00:30:04] Yeah. Crazy, right? We didn't date, and I knew she was Mormon, but I knew that Mormons were, like, too good. And so I was like, I'm kind of a sleazebag. I am never gonna, like, approach her because I knew that she was too good, right? And she wouldn't be interested in some sleazy quarterback, you know, loser guy. And so, Faith, I had a good experience. We were sitting next to each other in sacrament meeting, then we went to Sunday school, and I was like, this is great. And then we split off for. For priesthood and Relief Society. And she's like, hey, bye. Go with my dad. I'm like, what? Like, you know, her dad's super, super nice Polynesian dude. But I'm kind of scared because it's like, hey, this is my daughter, man. Like, you dating my daughter? And so anyway, and then we split off again, and I'm with the young men, with the bishop, and I'm just like, what is going on? Right? And we go back to their house after church, and we kind of had a debriefing. And I'm like, yeah, it was better than I thought. Like, there was no, like, you know, goats being sacrificed or whatever, culty things that I had no idea because I didn't know anything about religion, really. And so. And nobody made fun of me in Sunday school like they did at the Baptist church and that my mom went to. And so, yeah, in general, I had a good time. Even my baseball coach, when I was in Little League, he was there. I didn't realize he was. I didn't know.

Converting to Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Oh.

Marc Oslund [00:31:16] And he wasn't going to church at the time, but then he comes back. And so all these people that I had community interactions with, I'm like, wait, I've kind of been surrounded by Mormons. And so one day, I'm at Faith's house again. We're hanging out at night. And Frank, who's her dad, a great guy, kind of pulls me aside and says two things. Mark, I really love having you here. You're a great person. You've been really good to all of our kids. They all love you. I love you. I said, thanks, Frank. That's so nice. Second thing, he's like, gives me further strength of the youth pamphlet. Never seen it before. He says, if you want to date my daughter, you live these standards.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Whoa.

Marc Oslund [00:31:53] I was like, okay. And I read through it when I got home. I'm like, not doing that. Not doing that.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:31:58] None of it. I'm just like, that's. That's intense. And in my mind, I'm like, and Faith's not doing that either. And I truly don't think I would have been even interested in Mormonism if it wasn't for Faith being she. She was a good person, a great person, but wasn't one who was keeping the rules the way that Mormons should. You know what I'm saying? I don't think I was having fun. For ex. Yeah. For lack of a better word. Right. And we were having fun.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Developmental high school, 100%.

Marc Oslund [00:32:25] The way that. The way that normal kids would develop.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:32:28] Which plays into when I'm teaching seminary and the way that I interact with kids and what they bring to me, I'm like, that's normal. Right?

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Can't wait for that.

Marc Oslund [00:32:36] Yeah, that's coming up.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:32:38] And so, you know, I also have to tell you, the first time I met Faith's dad, it was. I was at Faith volleyball game. You know, she did great. She was really talented. And Faith, Faith's like, hey, come meet my dad. I'm like, I don't want to meet your dad. Like, that's scary. It's the first time I ever met a parent, you know? And so Faith brings me over and Frank, who's her dad, looks at me. He's like, mark. Real confused. Like, he was like. Like we knew each other somewhere. He's like, is that Mark? I'm like, that's me. You know, like, he's like, I home taught your dad. Frank was the guy that home taught when, like the two experiences I had the Mormons knocking on the door. I think Frank was one of them.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Oh.

Marc Oslund [00:33:20] So it's like, what in the world? You know how Mormon world can get really small.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:33:24] And so those are the tie ins

John Dehlin [00:33:26] even in Southern Cal, right?

Marc Oslund [00:33:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:33:29] Turns out our neighbor, who's old, old, old, like 80 years old, they're Mormon. Two doors down, they're Mormon. I'm like, what is going on? I had no idea, you know? And so I just continued to go to church just because I like hanging out with Faith. I like being with her family. After, Faith would invite me over for family home evenings, and, you know, with the missionaries came by and just very casual. Never any pressure. Faith was really good about making sure that I didn't feel like I had to do something I didn't want to do. But she was also really good at just saying, like, hey, this is what we do. This is our family. And I remember she invited me to watch General Conference. And, like I said, the image I have of religion in my mind is so. I don't know if warped's the right idea, but I had this image of, like, somehow Mormon Corporation piping in, like. Like the wizard of Oz, piping into their homes and just having, like, the prophet speaking in their home, not on tv. I don't know what I was picturing, but it was just this really warped view of what was going to happen. I'm like, no, thanks. I don't want to have 10 hours of this random dude talking to me, you know? So I was still resistant. Eventually I got to the point where I said, hey, it's good for you, but it's not for me. And I continued to just go. Baseball was great that year. We. We lost the state championship in football, which was devastating. The team that we played was from Compton, and a couple of the people. So Richard Sherman, who was a cornerback for. Yeah, yeah. So he.

Baseball Recruitment and College Decisions

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Seahawks, right?

Marc Oslund [00:34:59] Yeah, exactly. So he went to that school. He graduated the year before. But that whole team was stacked. I mean, guys going to USC, Washington, UCLA.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Like 12.

Marc Oslund [00:35:06] Huge. Exactly. Like huge, huge, huge players. My coach wasn't really good at recruiting. He didn't want to put his name on the line and have somebody not perform, which was unfortunate. But that team just. They fell in love with me. They all came up. Hey, number 12. We love you. We love you. We're going to. Anytime somebody comes and asks for a quarterback, we're going to tell them to go to West High. And so I started getting looks in football. So I had, you know, Arizona. Arizona State come by. USC came by. I think that was just a token, like, hey, we're gonna recruit your running back and we'll say hi to you, too. I don't think that was ever serious. Fresno State, Utah State.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] Oh, fun.

Marc Oslund [00:35:41] Yeah. So Utah State came by. John, this way. This is why it's so hard for me to, like, I'm a Utah now. Like, and probably not leaving Utah State came by when I was playing baseball, said, hey, we'd love to offer you a scholarship. We'd love to have you here. And I remember saying, oh, that's such an honor. Like, I'll think about it, getting done, turning to my friends and being like, I'm never going to Utah. You know? You know what I mean? Like, it was just Utah was the land of the weird. I just never had any need to ever go to Utah. We did play, like a tournament in Taylorsville for like, three days, and that's all I knew. So, you know.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] And what year was this that you were getting recruited?

Marc Oslund [00:36:19] 2006. Okay, 2006.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:36:21] So right at the heart of, you know, USC was really good at the time, and, man, I was pumped. I was honored and, and it was really cool to see so many people coming by. I had some, some not official offers, but they were really starting to get there. But then I'd have to shift gears for baseball, and then baseball started up. So my first letter ever from baseball was Stanford. And they said, hey, send us your. Your transcripts. And at the time, I think I was probably less than a 3.0. Why? Because popular people don't do good in school. You know, even though I was smart and sent him my transcripts, never heard back, you know, because they're like, we're not taking you. But then I got letters, you know, from Long Beach State, which was like a dream school for baseball for me again. SC for baseball? Yeah, yeah. Usc, University of Southern California. UCLA was like my dream. My dad was a big Bruin fan, so I wanted to go there. They never gave me a letter that was like, it was, it felt like a dig. But I, I mean, they, they, they love the Orange county people. We, I guess, in the South Bay didn't get as much love. But anyway, and then, you know, Fullerton and Irvine and these other UC Riverside and, And I started taking recruiting trips. San Diego State was another one.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] And I think people. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the, like, the big known Division 1 schools for, like, basketball or football aren't necessarily the top baseball schools.

Marc Oslund [00:37:42] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] And some of these schools you're mentioning that people go, oh, that sounds like a podcast school. Yeah, there's some. Is that right?

Marc Oslund [00:37:48] There's not for baseball, 100%. Yeah. So, like, I mean, you have to think that the hotspots for baseball in the whole country is California Texas, Arizona and Florida. Georgia. Right. And so, like Long Beach State is as a Cal State school. It's a local school, it's commuter school. But I mean, they're, they're top 25. They're putting out people like, all the time. Multiple MLB players. It's the closest school to my house. I love the environment at Blairfield. Cal State Fullerton, same thing. Top 25 program. UC Irvine becoming a top 25 program. And again, I never, ever thought I would leave Southern California. I was going to grow up there. The only time I would leave would be to play pro ball for some other team and then I'd have my home in Southern California. San Diego State offered me a scholarship for football. They were also home of Marshall Fall. Yeah, see, you know. Exactly. And Tony Gwynne was the baseball coach there. And so, like, they said, hey, if you want to play baseball too, we're going to look at that. And I'm, I'm pumped. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna play football and baseball in San Diego. Like, in my mind, it's a party school. I'm in San Diego. I'm playing two sports I love. Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Where's Kwai Leonard? Where do you go?

Marc Oslund [00:38:53] School. Same thing. San Diego State.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] See, those are some legends, man.

Marc Oslund [00:38:56] Exactly, exactly. And like, in my mind, even though, like, now I'm literally nobody, like, I really thought, I'm like, that's the trajectory of my life. My parents always instilled that confidence in me. They always. And I had all these opportunities and I'm watching my teammates and my. From high school, my teammates from other schools go on to play college at top schools. One of my teammates went to Fresno State and they were in the College World Series. And I'm like, this is, this is what we're going to be doing, you know, and so in this time when all of this recruit recruiting is happening and it's. It's just really exciting. Well, Faith and her family decide to move from Redondo to Highland, Utah. And so I was, like, devastated. Right, Because Faith was such a. Of integral part of my junior year. I wouldn't say that we were like, we had a healthy relationship because I don't know if it's necessarily super possible to have a healthy relationship as a 16 year old, but nonetheless, it was definitely a big part of my life. And so Faith moving up there, like, I went with them their first week and helped them moved in, and I was just like flying home. I was just, like, devastated. But then I Got really excited for football again, right? And so I talked to Faith on the phone and we'd stay in touch. And our team was. I mean, we were rolling. We were just dominating people. We made the state championship the year before. Lost just barely by seven, by seven points against an amazing team. We were the favorites. We beat a team like 50, nothing, 42 to 6. Like we're destroying teams. And one day before practice, it's our easiest practice. This Thursday before a game on Friday, we just have this, this. We wear like just shoulder pads and helmets. We don't tackle anybody. Super laid back. And I was the quarterback, so I had to. I forgot to get the ball that we needed, you know, and so I went into the locker room and our coach always said, don't run in the locker room with cleats. And I ran into the locker room with cleats and I slipped. And immediately I was like, something's off with my knee. Like, it just differently than the one I tore my. My sophomore year. I'm like, something's off here. And I'm just kind of pretending like I'm not hurt, you know, I didn't just slip in the locker room and. And hurt my knee. I. I jog with the team and I'm like, something's off. I start trying to do a sprint for a warmup and as soon as I do, my knee just poof, like explodes. And I'm like on the ground and I'm like holding my knee in pain. And because it was such a laid back non contact practice, I think my coach was just surprised. Like, what, are you joking? So he came over laughing. Good one. I'm like, oh, my knees. Like, okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Oh, yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:41:33] I'm like, no, my knees really hurt. He's like, oh. And man. So I didn't, I didn't play that game. I. I got an mri and it was like, hey, my piece. My pcl and my knee was torn. My. My meniscus was torn. And there was something going on with my ncl and so I'm just like, dang, dude, did I just lose my scholarship? Did I just lose this thing? Football was my, My passion, you know, not my long term love. My passion. And I was devastated. I took like a bunch of pain pills before the week four game trying to play. And it was evident, man, I had a knee brace on and it was evident I couldn't do it. My coach said, nope, I'm not playing you, which is a good coach, but I lost it. Like, I started throwing stuff. It's Our. Our biggest rival. I started beating in there, like, lockers, and I'm. I'm just. I'm livid. And. And then I tried to play the fifth game. I finally convinced my coach to let me play. And I. Look, I know it wasn't good, but my role model is Kobe, right? He tears his. He tears his Achilles. He hits two free throws and walks off like, I'm gonna play. So I take a snap and step. And my knee explodes again. And I'm a big dude. I'm bigger than most people on the field, even as a quarterback. And they're not tackling me. I'm just kind of standing there, spinning around, and the refs blow it dead, and I limp off the field. And that was the last time I ever played. And San Diego State never called me. And, man, it went from. Life's really good. Like, I'm living the dream. Family's good, friends are good. Like, everything's good, too. What just happened? So, as you know, from my experience earlier, like, you know, we go to parties and we do whatever, and so I. Same thing. Trying to drown my sorrows or smoke away my sorrows or whatever else. And I remember vividly sitting in and. And Faith wasn't there. This girl who I really liked wasn't there. And so all of a sudden, I'm. I'm realizing I'm not that good at school. I'm not doing that good at school. I don't have football. I don't have this girl. I don't have anything. And I remember sitting in the corner of a party in the dark with, like, a hoodie on, and somebody walked up to me, and I had, like, a drink. I was like, what? Like, are you good? I'm like, no. Okay. And they, like, walked off, because how's the high schooler supposed to cope with that, you know? But right around this time, I'm just, like, going deeper and deeper and deeper into just feeling really crappy. And I'd been to church enough. I didn't go without Faith's family, but I'd been to church enough where I knew that that was a. That could be a part of my life. And anyway, it was kind of planted in. In. In my mind. And so Faith is playing at Lone Peak High volleyball team, one of the best, like, volleyball teams in the state.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:44:18] And they make the state championship at uvu. And I end up saying, hey, I'm going to fly up. I'm going to see you. I'm going to see you play. We had a 3 o' clock game instead of a 7 o' clock game that Friday. So I flew up, met their family in Salt Lake, hung out with their. With them in Highland, went to their state championship game. They won state championship that weekend. In between games, though, Frank, her dad takes me to byu. It's like, I want to tour you around byu. Never been, never thought about byu. Said, I want to go introduce you to the baseball coaches. Okay. I thought Frank had an appointment with the baseball coaches. He didn't. He just showed up. And the baseball coaches are never there. They're always gone. They're recruiting, practicing, doing whatever. It just so happens as we came in, there's two. There's the head coach and the recruiter coordinator that are sitting right there. And Frank says, hey, this is Mark Oslin, you know, from Torrance, California. You really need to take a look at him. And I go, yeah, sure. Well, they call two people to ask about me. They call. The first one is an All American. He ended up baptizing me. Right. Long run. His name's Murphy, and he's a great, great guy.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] It's not Dale Murphy.

Marc Oslund [00:45:28] No, Murphy Sua. So he got drafted by the Dodgers. He was an All American at byu. He was the one that introduced me to my travel ball team in la. So we're family. We had some family connections there. And Murphy's like, you got to get this guy. Like, he's. He's a stud. They call the next person who's another one of my coaches the same thing. You need to get this guy. So a couple weeks after that, BYU ends up offering me a scholarship. And I wouldn't have taken it except for what happens that weekend. So I'm feeling this devastated sadness. Loss of football. It's Sunday morning. I have to fly back home. I just got in an argument with my mom because she was like, why do you love her family more than ours? And just typical teenage stuff, you know, I'm just feeling really bad. And I remember going to church with Faith, because that's kind of a requirement with, you know, their family. And we sat in the back on, like, you know, the folding chairs. And I remember sitting in the back and just looking around and thinking about how miserable I was inside. And, like, outwardly miserable, too, right? I just had, like, my. My demeanor was just sad and depressed. Whereas everybody, you know, this in Mormonism has that very cheerful, like, Mormon joy. Tm like, you know, like, make sure even if you're miserable inside, you're smiling. If you're smiling, like, then. Yeah.

Spiritual Experiences and Joining the Church at BYU

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Mm.

Marc Oslund [00:46:49] For sure, you're. You're. Yep. You're living the gospel. So I now know that. But at the time, I'm thinking everybody's happy and I'm not. And I remember sitting in the back, the sacraments getting passed. And during this, all of this, in my mind comes a couple thoughts. I think, maybe the church is, like, good and true. Maybe that's why I'm not happy. Then when I thought maybe, I remember Faith's dad telling me just the brief story of Joseph Smith when he didn't know to pray. And so I said, like, a super quick prayer. I was like, God, if this is. If this is true, let me know. And the sacrament gets passed, and I'm just kind of waiting, like, what is supposed to happen now? What do I do? And then a member of the bishop gets up, starts sharing whatever he's sharing. And for some reason, this, like, rush of emotion comes over me, and I'm just sobbing. And in my mind, the connection goes to, oh, the church is true. I think looking back, I can recontextualize it and say, I really wanted to belong. You know, I really wanted hope. I really wanted perspective. But in the moment, that wasn't even a thought. It was, oh, my gosh, this is true. Everything they've told me is true. And I'm sobbing, right? And Faith's dad, Faith turns to me. He's like, are you okay? I'm like, just, I know the church is true, you know? And then Faith's dad turns to me, and he actually could hear what her. Like, he could make out what I said. He's like, we'll talk about that after, you know. So we go back home to their house right before my flight, and Frank says, mark, what you were feeling, do you know what that was? I was like, yeah, Frank, that's the Holy Ghost. He's like, do you know what that. You know what that means? I was like, yeah, I need to go on a mission. He's like, yeah, you do, but you need to get baptized first.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] You know?

Marc Oslund [00:48:35] So there it was. There it was. And there's. I mean, this is the turning point. Everything where I am right now happens because of that moment. And at the time, I was pumped. I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to be 100% in. I've always been 100% in on whatever I do. So I'm going to be the best Mormon. I'm going to be. I'm going to give up, you know, drinking. I'm going to give up this I'm going to. I guess, you know, I'll go to byu. I went home and I. I met with Murphy, who's an amazing guy, and he was just asking me, like, tell me what you felt. I told him my experience. His son gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon because we were friends. And so I had that. And he's like, okay, we'll set up the meetings with the missionaries. And so my first missionary lesson was we had two sister missionaries. I still remember them. They're amazing people. I'm in contact with two of them, which I love, and I still have fond feelings towards them. And I remember driving up this big hill to this person's house I'd never been to. And the missionaries were riding bikes, right? The sister missionaries, which is so sad. I'm like, why does it. What are sister missionaries? Why do you have bikes, man? Like, and it's up this huge hill and they're just, like, dripping sweat and panting. And I'm just like, my heart feels so bad. And I had a truck, and so I know it's the missionaries, you know, and I like, pull over. Like, hey, you want to ride? And they're just, we're good. And I'm like, you're not. Like, get in. Like, I don't know mission rules. Like, you can't be alone with a single guy. Like, I didn't know that. I'm just like, these people are weird. They're weird, you know? And I. And so I had these doubts in my mind, like, what am I doing? Like, these are weird people. But then I had this. That whole belief that I had been taught, if you know it's true, you have to do it, you know. So, you know, I have the missionary discussion at this person's house. I tell my dad, I'm going to my friend's house.

Family Conversion Stories

John Dehlin [00:50:25] So they don't know. They don't know.

Marc Oslund [00:50:26] Just hanging out, you know, and it ends up being right.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] No idea.

Marc Oslund [00:50:31] No idea. So they end up come. I come, I come back. And, you know, I had a good experience. I watched like, the Restoration, the video, the old one, like the 20 minute one for which, again, there's so many, like, foreshadowing to a seminary, you know,

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Joseph Smith and the Baptist.

Marc Oslund [00:50:50] Look, look at these angry Baptists or Methodists and, wow, you're gonna go to hell. And just. It, it was so, you know. You know, it's propaganda, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:57] Where he's a great father, he's a great husband, he, you know, loves people of color, right? All that, right?

Marc Oslund [00:51:03] All of it. All of it. And so, like, loves Emma.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Yes, loves his one wife, Emma. Exactly.

Marc Oslund [00:51:10] And he translated the place. And I don't remember what the old video showed, but I'm sure it was like him, like, you know, looking directly and just reading it word for word instead of looking in the hat. And so, like, it was just the very, very soft, happy version of it. Only one account where he. Where, you know, he sees God and it's perfect. There's no angels or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the stuff that we don't get. And so I'm watching this, I'm like, well, I had this experience, so therefore this must be true. I come back, like, three hours later, right? My dad's like, where were you for three hours on, like a Tuesday night? Nowhere. You know, I go into my room and I'm like, you know, washing my face, and I'm like, I'm. I gotta be Mormon now. Like, I remember for the strength of you. He's like, be honest. So I feel guilty. And so I'm like, dad, I just had a missionary lesson. He was like, do you know I'm Mormon? I'm like, no. You know, and then he asked, are you doing this for your girlfriend? I'm like, no, of course not exactly like, no. And he asked again. And my dad has always been very trusting. And they don't. Like, I'd come home late from parties, they wouldn't ask. Like, they just. They didn't. They weren't stressed about it. They just knew that we were good kids. But, like, my dad was serious. He's like, mark, are you doing this for your girlfriend? I'm like, dad, I. I really. I think I. I believe it's true. It's like, all right, well, you know, I'm not going to stop you. And I end up finding out after talking to him more throughout, you know, the next couple months, my dad never liked church. My grandma, who is the sweetest, like, the most typical, like, from Springville, just like, so sweet, never said a bad word. Like your old turkey was the meanest thing she ever said. My dad's like, oh, yeah, your grandma would dump cold water on me in the morning to get me to go to early morning seminary in Manhattan Beach. And I'm like, what? Then my dad, when he's 18, so he knows a couple people. Like, who's. He's the Waddell. Christopher Waddell. Like, they went to. They're in the same ward. My dad knows him very well, so he's like, the preside in the presiding bishopric, you know? So my dad is like, oh, yeah, I know all these people, like, Featherstones and all. Like, he's. He's just aware of a lot of them. And so I start really, like, man, Mormonism is actually a little bit deeper than I thought. My grandma's side, you know, not blood, because my dad's adopted, but, I mean, they're pioneers from England, right? And so I have that lineage, even if it's not blood. And. Yeah. So my dad decides to sit in on my second missionary lesson, and he starts crying. And my. My current. My wife right now, Rachel, she was at the missionary lessons because she was my friend, and that's who I started sitting with when Faith was gone, right? So when I'm at church, I have to sit with somebody. I knew Rachel. So I sat with Rachel and her family. I love Rachel's parents. I love Rachel's family. I wanted to be, you know, associated with them. So Rachel came over, and a couple other friends came over, and my dad is just like. He starts sobbing. He's like, I know it's true. I'm just not living it, you know?

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Really?

Marc Oslund [00:54:09] That's what he says. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? So I'm like, what's going on? And now I'm thinking, like, forever families.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] This is it.

Marc Oslund [00:54:17] This is happening, you know? I know. I know. And then I. My mom, who's never been Mormon, never was Mormon. The only thing my dad ever told her, my mom smoked before they got married. My dad's like, you know, you don't have to be Mormon, but I'm not gonna marry you if you smoke. My mom quit. But, like, you know, my mom and dad both drank. My mom. And there's just, again, no religion, really, in our family. And so I remember seeing my mom being cordial and kind when the missionaries came over, but also being like, I'm going in the back room. I don't want to be associated with this. So we get done, and me and my dad are kind of debriefing. He's like, you got to tell your mom. So a couple days later, I work up the courage to tell my mom. I don't know why I had this sense. Maybe it was just her look that she kind of gave. Like, I don't like this. And I told her, and she starts crying. She's like, I just. I don't want to lose you. I think she. I think she was thinking, like, what's that movie, the Waco, right? Where the mom of one of the kids who's there is calling and is like, please, like, come on, just come back home. I think my mom was thinking, oh, crap, like, he's joining a cult. And my mom was being very, like, trying to be supportive, but also, like, I really don't want this to happen. So she starts crying. I got mad. I'm like, mom, like, I'm not joining a gang. Like, my friends are like, I have Bloods and Crips for friends. Like, I could be doing this. I'm joining the Mormon religion. And she's still crying. She's like, I'm just gonna lose you. And. And I chalked it up to. On the oldest. She sees the. What's coming next. She sees going off to college, not in California. She sees getting going on a mission. She sees getting married in the temple. And she was right. But I was not very sympathetic to her, of course.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] Because you're 17 or 18.

Marc Oslund [00:56:05] Exactly. And it's true.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [00:56:07] And I'm like, well, whatever opposition. And I remember being told, whosoever loveth father and mother more than me is not fit for my kingdom. And so right off the bat, I feel like I'm being. I'll use the word indoctrinate. I don't know what I was feeling then, but these are being planted in my mind. Nope. The church. Over everything. And, man, I remember getting. Having a discussion with my dad. Well, this is. So I get baptized. It was a good experience. Right. I mean, it felt positive. But I think the good experience was.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] Did your dad baptize you?

Marc Oslund [00:56:46] No. So my dad. My dad was active. He was still drinking.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] Sometimes they use that as an opportunity to reactivate a member. Because if he was just a priest, he wouldn't have even had to be an elder.

Marc Oslund [00:56:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] He could have technically baptized.

Marc Oslund [00:56:59] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] But that didn't happen.

Marc Oslund [00:57:00] No. But they did allow him. And this is what's so interesting. I don't. I don't know how this worked, but they did allow him to be a part of my ironic priesthood ordination. Just to be in the circle.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:57:09] Which is really cool. And so I was.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] So he was an elder at some point.

Marc Oslund [00:57:12] Yeah. I think he was just a priest.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Okay.

Marc Oslund [00:57:14] Which is which? I don't remember. Like, can you be a priest? And. And maybe.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] I don't know.

Marc Oslund [00:57:18] Yeah. Yeah. I was a seminary teacher like, a year and a half ago. How do I forget? But, yeah, you could be a priest, I think, and ordain some anyway. But, like, my dad was there, and that was special for me. But Faith's dad Gave me, you know, the gift of the Holy Ghost. And Murphy, who was my baseball coach, and he was the one who baptized me, and my dad was there, and my grandma, this frail, sweet, tiny woman from Springville. I remember the day that I got baptized, my tiny grandma, who came up to, like, my waist, gave me this hug. And while it felt like nothing substantive because she's so frail, I could hear her just, like, squeezing me as hard as she could. So happy that somebody in her lineage is going to now be Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Wow.

Marc Oslund [00:58:03] Yep. And so she was like. I found out she was like, Stake Relief Society president and loved in the ward. And so my.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Why'd she go inactive?

Marc Oslund [00:58:12] She. She was going. I just didn't know. Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:58:14] She kept that from you? That's so weird.

Marc Oslund [00:58:16] I think it was my dad. I think my dad said, don't force it on them.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] Huh.

Marc Oslund [00:58:19] I think. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Your dad had never lost his faith or lost his testimony. He just became a Jack Mormon.

Marc Oslund [00:58:24] Yeah, basically. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:25] By Mormon standards.

Marc Oslund [00:58:26] Correct. So he felt bad because, like, he was 18. And then, you know how it happens. Are you going on a mission? Are you going on a mission? Are you going on a mission? And my dad's just like, I don't, like, want to do this. So he goes off to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo and is like, I'm done. I'm not doing Mormon. I'm. I'm free. I don't need your pressure. I think he felt a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Not a bad school, by the way.

Marc Oslund [00:58:44] It's a great school.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] Is that where Weird Al went?

Marc Oslund [00:58:46] I don't know. Yeah, my. My dad. I love San Luis Obispo. Like, I would gone there if I guess Aussie. I think Ozzie Smith went to. Maybe I'm making that up. But anyway, so that would have been a baseball school, but I had. I had bigger sites. And so, yeah, my grandma was just proud, right? So proud. So happy. Just beaming. There's pictures of me in the small jumpsuit because they didn't have one that fit me, and I had this giant wedgie, and it was miserable, you know, and. Wow. Yeah. Super random. And like, a couple. Just a couple friends were there. So Rachel, who's my wife, she was there, and I had Faith. Faith was there. They came down.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] Right.

Marc Oslund [00:59:21] And so Faith's dad was there. Exactly. And like. And then ward members, you know, turns

John Dehlin [00:59:27] out I was golden convert, man.

Marc Oslund [00:59:28] Oh, I was. I was the golden one. I think I might have been one of the only mission, like, baptisms for These missionaries who were ending their mission. And I love the missionaries, like one of them from South Africa, and I just loved her, and she's amazing. And I remember. I remember getting taught about tithing. And, you know, they did little skittles, because somehow they found out I like Skittles. And. And so they gave me 10. And, like, if you give us one bag. You know what I mean? And then they dumped the whole bag out, and I'm just like, this is amazing. And I didn't catch. And I would never blame them because I, as a missionary myself, I now know, like, oh, okay, I know you don't know much of anything, so whatever they're perpetuating or sharing is either been taught to them or forced on them by mission presence or what have you. But the phrase families can be together, not families are. I didn't even catch how insidious that phrase was.

John Dehlin [01:00:21] I was gonna say I was gonna use that word.

Marc Oslund [01:00:22] It's insidious can be if there's so much conditional. And I'm. I'm not even picking up on how indoctrinated like that is, you know? Do you get what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [01:00:33] I mean, it's such a. It's so fraught because the teaching is. Is the hook. It's like, oh, families can be together forever, and what's not to eternal families? And it just pulls on your heartstrings. And we did when I was. You know, I'm older than you. For me, it was. It was a film called the Families Are Forever. And it's the same thing. A kid dies, and then the parents are worried, will they ever see their kid again? Then the missionaries come, and they're like, oh, I'll see my kid again. And so, like, what's not to love about that, right?

Marc Oslund [01:01:02] Yep. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] But then you're. The insidious part is that the church is creating the scarcity. Yep. You know, because Christians are like, of course we'll all be in heaven together. Yes. But the church is like, oh, you can be together forever if you pass your tithing. Give us your life. And that's. That's the insidious hook.

Marc Oslund [01:01:21] And While simultaneously bashing Catholics for indulgences and whatnot. And I'm like, It's not. Like, I'm not believing it. Right. Because I'm only hearing the good side. And. And, like, looking back, I. I'm now thinking about my dad, and I. What an. Like, I wouldn't be as. Yeah, sure. Like, whatever you need to do. As my dad was with my kid because he's going to grow up in Utah. And, you know, when everybody starts turning eight, hey, my friend's getting baptized. I don't feel like I could just say, yeah, if you want to. I feel like I owe it to him to explain, you know what, if you make this choice, I can't stop you, and I don't want to stop you. But let me tell you this. This, this, this, this. And so that never happened. And part of it, the problem is

John Dehlin [01:02:00] your dad still believed it.

Marc Oslund [01:02:02] Exactly. Exactly. And I don't think he knew a ton of it either.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Like, I think he knew basic stuff, but I didn't. How would he have?

Marc Oslund [01:02:08] Yeah, exactly. And so, like, look, I still think the ideals, whether or not I believe them, that's. That's irrelevant. But the ideals of Mormonism, they're still compelling intellectually. The idea is that you're known by a divine being, that you're loved by a divine being, that everybody matters. We're all siblings. The idea that we can be families forever, like, those are, Are. Are compelling ideas. And so that's what I, I was believing. I. The Joseph Smith thing just kind of came along second. Right. Or even the idea of prophets, the idea that, that God still speaks and that he still loves us, that's a compelling idea. The nuances that start coming, the fine print, the culture, that stuff was never explained. And I don't blame the missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] No, they didn't know.

Marc Oslund [01:02:56] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Yeah, they don't know.

Marc Oslund [01:02:58] How would they know? No, they're just like you. Exactly. I mean, back then, 21 years old, right? Yeah, yeah, they don't know anything. And so, But, But I, I'm. I didn't realize the fine print for years, dude. I'm teaching seminary before I start seeing the fine print.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Of course. Can't wait for that.

Marc Oslund [01:03:13] Oh, man, it's no hurry.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah. This is great. This is important.

Marc Oslund [01:03:17] Yeah, well, and it's. It's fundamental. And I just. Sometimes I wish that things would be different and, like, you know, this wouldn't happen. But. But, man, I met so many good. It's just, it's tension.

Informed Consent and the Appeal of Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:03:26] So, I mean, I just. This is just like a public service announcement, like, just from talking shop and Mormon stories for a second. Every once in a while, the church will come out with a promotional video where they'll say, some Harvard person or some, you know, chemist becomes Mormon. And I'm just like, how in the world would someone in 2020, educated, bright, thoughtful, successful, join this church when, like, the members who love it and have been a part of it for their whole lives are like leaving in droves. And this is answering that question.

Marc Oslund [01:04:00] Yeah, exactly. Because we're not taught the nuances. We're taught the things that I still think are compelling and the things when I was a missionary that I thought was compelling. And again, I don't believe it now, but still, intellectually, I can tell somebody, you know what? I see the value.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Yeah, of course.

Marc Oslund [01:04:18] Even if I don't believe it, there is value, right?

John Dehlin [01:04:20] There is value, tons of value.

Marc Oslund [01:04:22] Part of me just like, no, there's not. You know, like, there's no value. But like, I. I'm learning, like, now that hurt from some of the trauma that we'll talk about. Now that that's subsiding, I can see it more clearly. Like, there is value to it. But I am at the point now where I think, in general, I think Mormonism is net negative.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Well, let's not. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Marc Oslund [01:04:40] Yeah, you're nice, you know.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] No, no, no. Just because we, you know, there's still a lot of story to get to, for sure, but. But, I mean, we could talk about that at the end, but I mean, this is. This is important. So, you know, you're the golden convert and there was a lot of value for you, for sure.

Marc Oslund [01:04:57] And look, and it's during Prop 8, too. This is what you need to know. So I remember before I got baptized, like, planning meetings in Elders Quorum. Look, I'm in. I'm in LA and we're talking about Prop 8. And at the time, I assumed I knew gay people, but we didn't talk about gay people. We would use, you know, the slurs for gay people just because that's how idiots like us talked. And I didn't know anyone's in my direct friend group that was. That was gay or queer, what have you. And so I didn't feel super passionately. I'm 17, 16, 17 years old. What do I know about politics or anything, But I do remember planning meetings in the Redondo 2nd Ward about how we're going to knock doors and canvas neighborhoods, about Prop 8, about how we're going to stand on corners and how we're going to, you know, I don't remember if it's yes or no, but, like, we're going to be up there. Nope. We do not want gay people to get married. And while I was not in any way an ally or knew enough about politics to even know what was happening, I remember thinking, this feels weird. It felt Strange to me because I believe that we, in church, we just talk about God. Why, why were we talking about politics and canvassing and protesting? Like the idea of protesting anything for what? And so I was, I, I wasn't aware enough to be able to be like, oh, this is wrong. Only in looking back do I think, holy crap, like, this is happening. Like, my mother in law, who I adore, was on corners protesting not because she doesn't like queer people, because she does, but because she felt like she had to. And so, like, man, like, looking back, holy crap, I'm in the heart of Prop 8 in California when I get baptized. Like, I join the church, when people are starting to say, peace out, I'm done. I'm saying, this is great, but I don't, I just don't know the fine print. None of it historical, doctrinal, you know, social, political, none of those fine print. I didn't know any of it. I was just so joyful.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] So I'm guessing that when I talk about informed consent, that probably rings a bell because even though you loved it and you were enjoying it and you chose it, you. How much did you know you were. What did you. How much did you know you were getting into?

Marc Oslund [01:07:05] Nothing, Right? Like, I was like, oh, I'll go, I'll go to BYU and I'll go on a mission. I'll get married in the temple. That's what I thought. But all the other.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] Give your life to it.

Marc Oslund [01:07:12] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I'm like, well, what's 10%? Like, I, I wasn't even thinking about tithing. But that stupid lesson, man, that lesson stuck. I'm like, the Skittles. I want more blessings. Like, man, like, you know what I mean? Like, none of this is becoming like. And so, like, looking back, I wish I could look at myself and, and, and give myself the love that I needed. Because that's what I was craving. I was craving community. I was craving purpose. I was craving healing from feeling totally unwelcomed and unloved. And I just desperately felt like I needed a true belonging, not one where we're partying and doing stupid stuff. And I felt like now looking back, I'm like, that's what it was. It was my subconscious or even my conscious saying, you need a place where you can belong, a healthy, good place. And I didn't realize that it wasn't healthy, right? Because I didn't see it or it

John Dehlin [01:08:02] was healthy until it wasn't. I mean, I mean, we can have that debate.

Marc Oslund [01:08:06] No, I think you're right.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] I, I still think my upbringing was healthy. It wasn't perfectly healthy. There were. It was healthy and unhealthy. But you look at how many amazing humans and families come out of Mormonism. They're doing things right.

Marc Oslund [01:08:23] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:08:23] You know?

Marc Oslund [01:08:24] For sure. There's a lot of good. Yeah. And, and I'm. That's where I'm still.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] We'll get there. We'll get there.

Marc Oslund [01:08:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] Don't.

Marc Oslund [01:08:30] Don't let me forget because this is something I'm currently.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] We'll come back to it. We'll come back to it.

Marc Oslund [01:08:33] So, yeah, so I get back baptized and I'm pumped. And like I told you, just a couple of my friends were there. That's on a Saturday, confirmed on a Sunday, go to school on Monday. And I remember being late to like my government and civics class or whatever in the top floor of our third story building outdoors and, and Ms. Aukerman who is just super sweet lady, you know, from Indiana and always said Washington instead of Washington. And we had just random busy work that we were doing because she didn't want to be there. It's Monday and I didn't want to be there. Nobody wanted to be there. And it's dead silent and we're doing busy work. And Ms. Occamon goes, Mark, I'm like, yes, Ms. Ackman, are you Mormon now? And everybody, everybody's like in front of the whole class. Whole class, what? Remember we don't talk about religion. Nobody's religious that I know. I'm the quarterback. People are, people are aware of me. And so everybody perks up. They're like. And I'm like, yeah, just like, why? And I'm like, what? Like right off the bat I'm already having to defend all of this. And I don't, I truly don't know how people found out. My next class, the teacher found out there was people on campus that I had never, I never spoken to, that when I walked by they were like, like whispering. I'm like, how does this whole 2000 person campus know that I joined the Mormon Church?

John Dehlin [01:09:51] How?

Marc Oslund [01:09:52] I. I still don't know. I think maybe somebody who was there told somebody. And then you know how teenagers are. And even before, you know, we had. It's AOL instant messenger, you know, so I'm sure that's, you know, where it was happening. But it was so surreal. I go to my football practice sixth period and my coach is like, are you Mormon? I'm like, yeah, coach. She's like, what? That's a cult, man. I'm like, did he say that? Oh, yeah, because he's so. He's a Christian dude. And like, we weren't supposed to pray, you know, because separation church and state, especially in California. But before every football game, he was the one who prayed for us. So, like. And he, like, loved Clay Aiken. And like, you know, like, that was. That was his thing. And so he's like, what do you believe? And the missionaries, because I think they knew that I was influential, they're like, hey, carry these around with you as articles of faith. Pass along cards.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Oh, my goodness.

Marc Oslund [01:10:38] So I gave a pass along card to my coach, and he reads through it and it says, like, we, the articles of faith are first, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, what does this mean? What does it mean? Articles of faith are first. And I'm like, no, no, no. The articles of faith are, comma, first. Faith in the Lord, blah, blah, blah. He's like, okay. I was gonna say, you don't put faith in Lord first. I'm like, why am I having this discussion?

John Dehlin [01:10:56] You know?

Marc Oslund [01:10:57] Like, I'm not ready for this. I don't. John, I truly knew nothing. Yeah, I remember reading the first part of the Book of Mormon and just feeling like it was torture. Like Nephi. I didn't know how to say it. It was Nephi and Lehi. Like, I. I knew nothing. And that's what I mean in foreign consent. Like, I didn't read it. Like, they asked, like, yeah, I have a testimony of it. Why? Because I had that one moment. And if that was true, then everything else is true. And so, man, I just. And it was. I felt. And I totally. I bore my testimony. I was passionate about it. Like, that moment when I felt that sense of community and that sense of, like, love and acceptance. I truly believed at the time that that was God speaking directly to me. And I felt like it was powerful. And I remember later reading about Paul turning, or Saul turning to Paul and being like, that's me. I was the sinner, right? I was the one that thought Mormonism was a cult and laugh, laughed at south park and drank and smoked and did all this bad. And now I'm a witness, you know? And so, yeah, and it just. It just kept going. And. And from that point, I was branded as a Mormon. And for the first time since my seventh grade year, I remember sitting with my friends outside our little lunch table, my football teammates who were playing and I wasn't. And I remember sitting there and them laughing at me. And feeling like I was alone for the first time since seventh grade. And so, man, a hard moment. And what did I do? Well, what I was taught to do was you turn to the Lord, you pray, you read, you go deeper and deeper and deeper in. And so I remember talking to my center. So I'm a quarterback at the center. We obviously had a close relationship, and he was a Christian dude, and we talked quite a bit, and I asked him, hey, will you read the Book of Mormon? He's like, yeah, I'll read it. I'm like, hey, but you have to have an open heart. And he's like, okay. A couple weeks later, he came back. He's like, I read it. I'm like. And like. I'm like, that's true. You know? He's like, nothing. I'm like, you didn't do it, right? And so I went through the whole Moronius promise. Like, did you have a sincere heart and real intent? You know, the same. I was like, did you actually want to join? He's like, yeah, I would have. I'm like, I don't believe you. You know, and so anyway, he's. He's now. He's now a pastor somewhere, and I think he's in, like, South America. So anyway, yeah, what a crazy experience. And I. And, like, I'm feeling super isolated because my dad won't go to church because he doesn't want to alienate my mom. I'm the only Mormon. I. My grandma's in a different ward, and she's old, and she's not going. Yeah, she's not going. Just because she's old. The sacrament. She'd get the sacrament, whatever. And so on Sundays, I'd feel super alone. I'd sit with Rachel, who's my wife. I'd sit with her family. I'd go do all the things alone. I'd be. I was the priest, quorum, first advisor or whatever. And then I go home and I'd go to my sinning family, who's drinking and watching TV on the Sabbath, you

John Dehlin [01:13:50] know, and you start to look down

Marc Oslund [01:13:51] on them 100% immediate judgment, these wonderful

John Dehlin [01:13:55] parents that have been so good to you. I'm not trying to rub it.

Marc Oslund [01:13:57] No, no, no. Rub it in, please. Because. Because it emphasizes what my mom was feeling that I couldn't grasp at the time, where she's like, why are you like, mark, we've always been so good to you. Like, how could you ever think about us this way? And again, what's the phrase? Like, if you love Father and mother more than me. You're not fit for my kingdom. So I'm like, God comes first. And because I had no one to teach me, because my dad wasn't teaching me, other people weren't teaching me. Where did I go? I went to prophets. So I read ensign after ensign after ensign after. Like I read and read for. I'm talking about hours. And I learned the gospel. The gospel from prophets, from the ensign.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] Were these paper ensigns?

Marc Oslund [01:14:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Where'd you get em?

Marc Oslund [01:14:43] I don't even remember. Missionaries, friends, others, like in the church, people who would give them to me. And I just, I was hungry for them. And I remember searching on my computer more and more and more. Right. And I'm just, I was just starving for it because I felt like, oh crap, I feel this thing. My family's not living this thing. I need support. I need understanding. People ask me questions I can't answer. So I, I just like became, I would never say like a scholar, but certainly someone who just wanted to learn everything possible.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] And I mean, you didn't get seminary.

Marc Oslund [01:15:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] And so you, you were basically using the ensign to give you the education. You didn't get in seminary, Correct?

Marc Oslund [01:15:21] Yeah. So Rachel. Yeah, Rachel invited me to go to seminary and I was like, so I had one semester left of high school.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:15:27] This is how she explained it. She's like, well, you wake up at 5:30 and you sit in and talk about church for an hour. I'm like, no thanks. You know.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Exactly. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:15:36] Sounds, sounds absolutely miserable. And, and so obviously I didn't want to do that being a senior. I'm like, dude, I got, I'm at least going to try to sleep in, you know, So I never did that. The enzyme was my understanding. And of all things I could have read like, I think the enzyme might have been the worst. Like because it's just so correlated. It's so, and especially the older enzyme. Now we're starting to see like how to deal with a loved one.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] Oh, that's nice.

Marc Oslund [01:15:59] You know, could you imagine, like, I wonder what I would have felt in 2008.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:16:04] If that was the article. And I'm thinking about my mom.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:16:07] What would have happened in my relationship? Because what did happen was she continued to be hurt, I continued to be frustrated. We grew very, very strained. And my mom, I think I get my hard headedness from her. And so I'm not budging. I know this is true. Right. And she's not budging. And I just like, I can't trust you. Then mom, like that was basically the feeling. And we grew much more separate then. And looking back, I'm like the, it makes me so sad because I was being loyal to this religion and then the, you know, foreshadowing who just continue to stab me in the back after I gave everything to them. It started with giving up my family. Then the next step I gave up was baseball. Where. Look, BYU is a great school. Like it is. I don't think it's as good as we think it is. Like the Harvard of the West. It's not, you know, it's not Stanford, it's.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] It's not.

Marc Oslund [01:17:00] But it's a good school. And it's, it's certainly, I think, better than Long Beach State or Cal State Fullerton.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] Academically.

Marc Oslund [01:17:06] Academically. Baseball wise, it wasn't. Yeah, it's a cold weather school. Look, I'm from la, man. I don't know how to exist in the winter still. I've lived here for, since 2009. I still don't know how to live in the winter. And I would have loved to have played. And like, I remember I signed my, my letter of intent a couple weeks later. I think it was like February before baseball started.

John Dehlin [01:17:24] And so your knee didn't take you out of basement?

Marc Oslund [01:17:26] No, I rehabbed it and it was fine. And I was never super fast and so it didn't affect me a ton. I rehabbed it and I was all good. Thanks for remembering. I totally forgot that even happened. But yeah, so I signed the letter

Baseball, Pro Drafts, and Church Loyalty

John Dehlin [01:17:40] of intent and you were a first baseman.

Marc Oslund [01:17:41] First baseman, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And like I was, I, you know, hopefully I'd hit ball pretty far so I wouldn't have to run, you know, super fast either, but decent hitter I was, Yeah, I hit like 420 in high school. Like, yeah, I mean I, I led the league in home runs like two or three years. So like. Yeah, that's why I was surprised. I'm like, wait, I'm not hitting at byu. What the heck, you know. So anyway, I, I had gotten, you know, offers for different, different schools. I signed with byu. I had a great year. I was the player of the year in our area. I mean, and we were, we were a very good team. Again, we lost. So Nolan Arenado, who's like a stud third baseman, he plays for the St. Louis Cardinals making hundreds of millions of dollars. We lost to his team. I wasn't pitching, let me pitch every, all four years. It was this one guy who, who is a good guy, but he just lost every Year. And I'm like, why? Literally, I've never lost. But anyway, stupid. It's like high school. Why am I. Why do I care? I'm still passionate.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] Like,

Marc Oslund [01:18:41] no, I never want to be. Like, I remember watching Friday Night Lights, like, the movie and thinking, I'm never going to be like, Tim McGraw's character, who's just like, all you got is memories and babies, man. And now I'm looking back, I'm like, dang it. Like, no, like, there's more to my life.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] Memories. Exactly.

Marc Oslund [01:18:56] And so anyway, like, it was a great year, and I end up going to, like, a showcase tournament. And I dominated this team. Like, I had 10 strikeouts in, man, four innings. Like, I. I mean, everybody but two. I struck out. And all of the players were going to PAC 12 schools. Arizona, Arizona State, USC. And right there on the spot, coaches from Irvine and Fullerton, who, again, top 25 programs, walked up to my dad and said, we're gonna give him a scholarship right now if he'll sign with us. My dad says, sorry, he. He already signed with byu. And he told me this after I didn't know. Cause I was pitching and my dad said that they turned left byu. And I'm like, now looking back, I'm like, man, again, I love. I love my teammates, I love my coach, I love my experience. But it's true, like, BYU is not a nationally recognized. We're starting to become better. Our current coach, I love. Super proud of what he's doing. And BYU baseball is the only BYU sport that I'm, like, proud of. You know, I'm like, BYU baseball, BYU football. I'm like, I love that you lost to Coastal Carolina and BYU basketball, like ucla. Sorry, you know, like. But BYU baseball, defend. Because I'm super proud of them and all of my experiences. But that was hard for me to realize. Wow, I was going to be the stud in LA to being like, well, I guess I'll just be the best player in Utah and be the best player. We were in the Mountain West Conference at the time, and so I guess I would do that. I ended up getting drafted that year by the Kansas City Royals. So I had Kansas City Royals, Miami Marlins, Cincinnati Reds. I had their scouts come, come to my home, say, hey, we want to draft you. And I was. I mean, that's. That's. That's the dream, right? And I remember telling them, because what do you do as a good Mormon person? You go on a mission. I said, every time they came by, I said, I'm going to byu. And I'm going to go on my mission. They're like, okay. And so it was. I felt like I was, you know, defending the truth. This is what we'll do. I'm standing for truth and righteousness. And again, what would have happened? So we're going to the Senior All Star Game. I'm the starting pitcher. I'm like, playing, like, Madden on Xbox with my friend before. And I get a call from one of my teammates who's also in the game, like, hey, what's up? He's like, dude, you just got drafted. I'm like, shut up, man. No, I didn't. I hung up the phone and my friend was like, hey, what was that? He's like, oh. He said, I got drafted. He's like, oh, yeah, good one. And the next call is from the Kansas City Royal scout that had been my home. He's like, hey, Mark, I just want to let you know we drafted you in the 42nd round. I know that you said you were going to go on a mission. We would have drafted you way earlier, but we thought, hey, if there's any chance this guy might sign with somebody, we want to make sure we have his rights. It's like, we'll be having papers coming out. And I'm like, I just got drafted. Like, my dream, I was going to play pro ball, man. And they sent over the papers, and the contrast of the two different papers you had to choose to sign. The first one was a beautiful color document with the Kansas City Royals logo declaring, giving your rights to the Kansas City Royals. You're going to sign your contract. Mine would have been, like 1600 bucks. Like, it would have sucked. You know, I would have been living in Arizona and making no money. And then there's another paper is like, yellow, just kind of like photocopied crap. Like, hey, I'm not going to sign, but the Royals have my rights for a year. Nobody else can draft me. And I remember this moment of holding them both in my hands, literally my dream of playing a professional sport in my hands, putting the paper down, picking up the yellow one, and thinking, God will make it worth it in the end.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Okay, tell me what the two papers were again.

Marc Oslund [01:22:36] One was to. One was to say, I'm gonna. I'm gonna play pro ball.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Pro ball.

Marc Oslund [01:22:40] The other one was, I'm not gonna play pro ball. Thanks for drafting me, but I'm declining.

John Dehlin [01:22:44] Declining.

Marc Oslund [01:22:45] Yep, yep. Okay. And I signed the declining one because I was going on a mission. And of course, I was going to go to BYU because The Sabbath, you know. And again, my thought was, I'm going. God will make this worth it for me in the end. And so I was kind of holding on hope for that.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:23:07] Hard moment for me. And finished up the year, go on to BYU.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] And it was religion, that. It was religion 100%. Oh, wow.

Marc Oslund [01:23:14] If it wasn't. If it wasn't for that moment in Highland, if it wasn't for me joining the church, I would have. First off, I would have been drafted way higher. They don't even have 40. Second round anymore. They only have 40. I'm confident I would have been in the top 20 based on what they're telling me. And I would have made a lot more money, probably would have had a signing bonus, et cetera, et cetera. And I would have done it, like, if. Like, I really think I would have.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] I remember that. I remember being in that mindset. Yeah, I had that mindset.

Marc Oslund [01:23:40] It's. It's heartbreaking. I remember thinking like, there. You know, there's BYU players. You have Steve Young who didn't go on a mission, and then you have other BYU players. And the BYU players that did go on missions had LDS living articles written about them and how they're good examples. And I thought, well, this is it. Remember the Ensign? I'm reading these. Ensign or wherever else I read it. And I'm seeing these people are idolized, so therefore, this is the right thing. There's just so much of this subtle culture stuff that I'm not. I didn't realize I was getting myself into or that it was even happening to me while it was happening.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:24:11] You know?

John Dehlin [01:24:12] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:24:12] So. Yeah. I mean, and then I come up to byu, and truthfully, I love byu.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:24:17] So I. It's amazing. School and Provo. Provo in the spring and Provo in the fall on campus. I think it's beautiful. It's pristine. My dad said it's always like Disneyland. Like, there's no trash anywhere, and it's super beautiful. And look, I came up here and, like, I had my past of being a Mormon or being non Mormon, and, you know, I did my. My sexual escapades and I had my non. Word of wisdom, living days. And. And I came up to BYU thinking, like, okay, I'm gonna be a good person. And then I see, like, just so many beautiful people. I'm like, oh, crap. Like, how do I. How do I do this? But I enrolled in, like, three religion classes my first year. Two of them with Randy Bot. Right. And.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:24:57] And so I Immediately begin. I don't know where this message came from exactly. I think it's just in the air. But this message of shame for or disgust or just negativity towards people who are breaking the law of chastity, people who have broken the law of chastity, people who have done things like drink or whatever else. I can't pinpoint a moment, but I internalized that message, that because I had done that in my past, even if I was baptized, I was a terrible person. And I said, I will never let anyone, anyone know that I did these things. And I thought, how can I justify this? Like, how am I able to. If a girl were to ask me, some sweet girl from Provo or Orem Mormon their whole life, like, tell me about your life. I'm like, I can't tell her what I've done because immediately, nope, you're cut. You're not. Nope, You. You're tainted. And so in Randy Bott's class in mission prep, I remember this. This hit me like, let's spell this out.

Shame, Sexuality, and Mormon Teaching

John Dehlin [01:26:01] So we. We have a ton of Never Mormons.

Marc Oslund [01:26:03] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] I'm surprised. I get emails every day from people that have never been Mormon, who love Mormon stories and watch every episode. What were the types of teachings that would make you feel so horrible about yourself?

Marc Oslund [01:26:17] Man, it's just like, I remember being at church stake presidency lessons, like, so much at byu, especially for young, unmarried people, is get married. But along with that, stay clean. Stay clean. Stay clean. That's the phrase, right? Clean. As if anything else is dirty, bad, wrong. And it's, like, constant. I mean, we have a chastity lesson once a month in our ward, right? Our young. Our young adult ward. And, like, we get in state conference talks, we get it in sacrament meetings, we get it in testimonies. I did this wrong and I repented, and now I'm clean.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Stay clean means what?

Marc Oslund [01:26:54] Stay clean means no sex. No. No masturbation. No pornography, no drugs. No.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Those things are likened unto what, like the.

Marc Oslund [01:27:03] The sin next to murder.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] You're not exaggerating.

Marc Oslund [01:27:06] Like, literally, it's that, like, it. It's like it's interpreted completely wrong, which I found as a seminary teacher. I'm like, oh, crap, right? But I was told that is the sin next to murder because it says it.

John Dehlin [01:27:18] Premarital sex.

Marc Oslund [01:27:19] Premarital sex.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] You look of Mormon.

Marc Oslund [01:27:20] Exactly. So you have murdered sex and, like, denying the Holy Ghost, and then, like, I don't know, everything else.

John Dehlin [01:27:28] Nothing else matters.

Marc Oslund [01:27:29] Seriously. I'm like, wait, so murder and Sex? Like how? Like, so you can imagine the internalized shame that I'm getting if you take that seriously. Absolutely. Which I did. Because there's other people that are like, meh.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] But you were highly conscientious.

Marc Oslund [01:27:43] 100%. And the reason why, John, is because I come up to BYU thinking I've never been around real Mormon. Like, I was around my ward, and in California, they do have a general sense, a little bit more ease. I think in general, they're happier when people come because they're like, thank you. You could have done anything.

John Dehlin [01:27:58] It's called the mission field.

Marc Oslund [01:27:59] Exactly. And so I've definitely felt more supported there. Whereas. And by the way, do you remember I told you, like, all the, the community members that, like, they knew we were drinking and whatnot?

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:28:09] As soon as they found out that I was Mormon, the weird looks I got, it's, it was like I had done something horrid. I could drink and do all of those bad things for Mormons and they'd be like, yeah, no problem. And as soon as I said, I'm going to church on Sunday, they're like, who's this weird guy? And so, yes, the Mormons are saying that. No, no, no, sorry. My neighbors, like, my people, like, my friends, they're like, dude, you're a freak. And I'm like, yeah, you would think it would be the opposite. You think that maybe people would be more like, hey, maybe don't drink when you're 16. Like, you know, don't get blackout drunk. It's not very good, you know?

John Dehlin [01:28:41] But being weird wasn't trying drugs or alcohol. Being weird was joining the Mormon Church. Right.

Marc Oslund [01:28:48] That's exactly it. Which is again, there's all these things that I like. I'm like, people telling me it's a cult, or even me knowing or thinking it's a call or Quakers or whatever. I'm like, you don't know. You've never been. Wait for the temple. But anyway, like, I, I, I felt that and, and I came to BYU thinking this is the epicenter of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] It's Oz.

Marc Oslund [01:29:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:29:09] Yes. You're offset the wizard 100%. And so if these people. Whatever. Yes. If they believe it, if they think this way, I should think that way too, because they. This is it. So they've been Mormon their whole lives. Wow. They've been to seminary release time. Seminary. Right. They've had all of these things. And so I think whatever they're doing or saying or thinking. That's right. Well, I mean, we know that's not true. We know that so much of it is culture that has just been passed on that is so harmful. But I couldn't. I didn't have anyone to coach me through it. And I thought, I'm just going to be like everybody else and internalize all of these harmful things, like sex being the next murder. Like, repentance. Like, if you. If you make a mistake, like, if you. If you masturbate or if you go have sex or if you make out with somebody and you do that, after you've repented, all of your former sins come back. So now I'm thinking, crap. Like, yeah, I was baptized in 2007.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] But, like, it should have cleaned you,

Marc Oslund [01:30:04] but dang it, I. I made out with a girl.

John Dehlin [01:30:07] Oh, crap.

Marc Oslund [01:30:07] Like, I went with a girl somewhere else.

John Dehlin [01:30:09] Like, uh, oh, now it undoes your baptism.

Marc Oslund [01:30:14] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:30:14] It's like this waterfall of shame.

Marc Oslund [01:30:16] Exactly. It's just shame on, shame on, shame on shame. And I didn't have a word for it other than that's what God wanted. That's the Holy Ghost. That's the spirit leaving you. And I'm like, oh, crap. Like, how do I get it back? Well, you go to sacrament meeting and you repent with a sincere heart. I'm like, please, God, take away this desire from me. Take away. I don't want to be attracted to girls because I knew if I was attracted that I want to kiss him. If I want to kiss him, I would do more.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] And he'd already had sex. So genie's out of the bottle.

Marc Oslund [01:30:42] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] I didn't have to deal with that until after I was married, for sure.

Marc Oslund [01:30:45] And so I'm like, oh, crap. Extra sins. Like, the sin next to murder is back. I'm a murderer. So it's like, you know, me and Judas are hanging out because I had sex, and Judas, like, had Jesus killed. And so I'm like, I'm just gonna be with Judas, you know?

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Like, it's like the Book of Mormon musical with, like, Jeffrey Dahmer and Johnny Cochran and. Yep. I gotta tell you, Starbucks coffee cup. The Spooky Mormon hell dream. Yes. You're basically having a Spooky Mormon hell.

Marc Oslund [01:31:10] Yes. And so, like, we. I actually saw that in London as a seminary teacher. Oh, yeah. They didn't know that. But I'm like, yeah, this is awesome. Like, that's exactly what all of my fellow teachers are teaching people, you know? So, again, foreshadowing. But. But, yeah, man. Like, it's just there was so much internalized shame, and so Randy Bott, who's. Who's a famous religion professor at the time.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:31:30] He's teaching Doctrine and Covenants. He's teaching mission prep. And he's. He's the one that got in trouble

John Dehlin [01:31:35] for saying some racist stuff.

Marc Oslund [01:31:37] Very racist stuff. Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] What did he say?

Marc Oslund [01:31:39] Tell the listeners the curse of Cain. Right. That black people come from the. From Cain. That it's a curse. They're sinning their premortal existence. They were fence sitters in the premortal existence. And then the Washington Post gets word of it and is like, and let's

John Dehlin [01:31:52] be clear, he didn't teach anything that any of us weren't taught for decades and decades and decades. His only mistake was it becoming public news that he taught these things during Mitt Romney's campaigns for president, which then ended up embarrassing the church. So he becomes, in some ways, the fall guy for just teaching what all of us had been taught for decades.

Marc Oslund [01:32:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:32:14] Am I right?

Marc Oslund [01:32:14] You're 100% right. 100% right. No, you're spot on. And truthfully, I love Randy Bot. Like.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] Oh, you knew him?

Marc Oslund [01:32:21] Yeah, yeah. Cause you were his class. Exactly. I just think that he taught the way that I wanted to teach in seminary, which passion?

John Dehlin [01:32:28] Charismatic.

Marc Oslund [01:32:29] Yeah, charismatic, fun. He made things applicable and real and down to earth. And he had real conversations. And once I found out about that, I'm like, oh, come on. Because maybe I didn't hear it or maybe I was gone playing baseball and I missed those lessons.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] Did that thing happen while you were like.

Marc Oslund [01:32:44] It happened right around that time. And I mean, obviously he was. Obviously he was teaching that. Like, it didn't just come out of nowhere.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:32:50] And so, like, when he's teaching DNC, which I had for him both semesters, and DNC 84 comes around, you know, and then official declaration, whatever, one or two. Like, it was brought up. I just don't think I was either there or recognized it.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:33:05] I'm kind of going by in this convert, like, new energy, you know?

John Dehlin [01:33:08] Right.

Marc Oslund [01:33:08] And so he. He did teach one thing that stuck with me because the. The hardest thing for me at BYU is my shame about feeling like I had this bad past. And I remember him teaching in mission prep and saying, what do you do if someone asks you while you're on your mission? Have you ever done blank, blank, blank? And his comment was, you tell them you're a new creature in Christ.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:33:33] And your former self is washed away.

John Dehlin [01:33:36] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:33:36] And I clung to that.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] Like, yeah, I'm new, though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow.

Marc Oslund [01:33:44] Yeah, right. Exactly. And so I'm like, there it is. Okay, so how do I make sure that I always feel good about myself? I'm always repenting because, look, I would wake up in the morning and think, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be perfect today. I don't want to sin. And then I'd stub my toe on my stupid dorm bed, and I'd swear under my breath, and I'd be like, I ruined it that day. And then I'd be like, God, please forgive me for that. And then I'd be late to class. I'm like, forgive me for being late. And I'm like, well, forgive me for stopping the prayers. Like, I could never catch up.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] You're on the hamster wheel of worthiness with a little bit of scrupulosity thrown in.

Marc Oslund [01:34:21] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] And not fun.

Marc Oslund [01:34:23] No. And nobody said that was bad. In fact, I think that was maybe even admired this idea that.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:34:29] That if you were. You're so diligent, you're giving your life like that. That's who you should be. People that go off and they listen to bad music with swear words. I don't know. Like, I wanted to be the model Mormon. You know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:34:42] And so, yeah, I would repent, repent, repent. And when I was at byu, I told myself I wouldn't swear. You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't go too far with girls. Right. We'd make out, we'd do whatever else, but I would never go, like, break the law of chastity, which is no sex, no touching, you know, over. Under the shirt. I wouldn't do any of that. And. But, man, like, I had a lot of girls I was interested in, and my former kind of past, like, came out. I think people are interested in this California. I think I was charismatic way more then than I was now than I am now. And baseball player. I did really well. I was an All American my freshman year.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] What?

Marc Oslund [01:35:20] Yeah. I mean, I. Not like, I was a freshman All American varsity. Yep, yep. Like, I. I led the team in wins. I think I was, like, 7 and 1. My only loss was to Oregon State in. At. In Corvallis. They had won the College World Series, like, two years before. I threw, like, a complete game shutout against New Mexico in the Mountain west tournament. I, like, played. Pitched three games against TCU, who's a top 10 program at the time. Like. And I. I don't. I'm not afraid. I'm like, dude, I was gonna go to UCLA or USC or who's New Mexico, who's unlv? Why do I care? Like, I'm not overwhelmed by you. And so I had a great season. I got offered to play summer ball, which is like, for serious baseball players. You are always playing baseball. Summer ball is what you do for college athletes to kind of get looks by pro teams. And the. One of the premier leagues at the time was called the Cape Cod League and it's out there in Cape Cod. And I got offered to play there again, turned it down so I could go on my mission. And yeah, got my mission call in April, got called to the North Carolina Raleigh Mission. I called it rally because I didn't do very well, I guess on my state capitals and was kind of bummed. I wanted to go to either South Africa and teach the sister missionaries family who had taught me or Samoa, where Faith and her family were from. And I got North Carolina and I'm like, north Carolina, like, that sucks. You know, and it didn't. I still have super fond memories of people in that state. But yeah. So during this time I actually opened my mission call on BYUtv, not live, but it ended up becoming a feature called the Mark Oslin Story. And I read my mission call and they talked about my conversion experience and I was kind of like a darling, you know, and there was a Mormon Times article that was written about me and my conversion. And then of course, I mean, right, yeah, I'm the golden child and look like I'm also a talented baseball player. And you know, Mormonism will maximize their popular people as much as possible for good pr. And I was proud of it. I'm like, yeah, like if I'm going to be Mormon, I might as well be popular too, you know. But yeah, yeah, a mess.

Mission Call and Early Mission Life

John Dehlin [01:37:33] You were celebrated.

Marc Oslund [01:37:34] Oh, yeah. And it just, that celebration, John, I think only served to confirm what was already happening.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:37:42] So I'm like, I, for example, I, I remember being at University of Utah playing against some of these heathens, you know, at the U with beards. Like, how could they. And I remember we had a double header and I, I had a pocket sized copy of the Book of Mormon I got from the BYU bookstore. And in between games I'd be eating lunch and reading the Book of Mormon. And I remember one of my religion professors said, like, you need, as I think is Ezra Benson who's like, read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes every day if you do this, blah, blah, blah. And then Marion Romney who says if you read The Book of Mormon, I promise you that not one of your kids will ever be lost. And I'm like, well, if it works that way, maybe it works in reverse so that the kid will bring the parents back. So there's so many of these reinforced things that I was picking up that were reinforced, and I think unintentionally, but also I think I was the model. I think what I was doing was exactly what you should be doing as a convert. You've given up your old life and you're brand new. And I was all in, man. And at the cost of losing my friends, separating myself from my family, losing college scholarships, losing, you know, top programs, baseball, professional baseball offers, I would give. At that point, I would give anything up for Mormonism. And so it was really. It was hard because it kept being affirmed, and I kept getting. And I was doing well, right? I was 7 and 1. For some reason, I forgot that I had always been good at baseball, and I had always been successful. But now Mormonism gets the credit. I'd be in on my head, on the mound, in my head, I would be saying prayers. God, please, please help me. Like, my arm would hurt, but please help my arm to hurt just silently. And so anytime I did well, God got the credit, which is fine, except it just reinforced all of the internalized shame, you know, that I only was succeeding because I was repenting, and I had to repent because I was bad. And so that wound just got deeper and deeper, and with shame, it gets more and more silent, and shame grows in the dark. And so I told nobody. Nobody knew anything. The more I did bad things. You know, if I hooked up with girls or, you know, got angry at somebody when they cut me off on the road, I would just tug it down. Nobody knew. And I do remember talking to my bishop, like, about my past life before I was baptized, because I still felt guilty about it. And he's like, well, you were baptized. And I'm like, I know, but I'm still guilty. He's like, have you done anything else? And I begin searching and plumbing the depths every day. I'm like, what could I have possibly done? And, you know, even anything remotely close, kissing for too long or being like whatever, like, just all of it. I just felt like I always needed to get it off my chest. And again, from Mission Prep with Randy Bott, he's like, hey, you know, you have these. These interviews so that when you're on your mission and these thoughts come back into your mind, you say, I've met with My bishop and my stake president, and I am clean. So I'm just, like, you know, constantly trying to get these things off my chest, whether it be through prayer. And once it wouldn't work with prayer, I would go back to my bishop, my stake president, and I. I didn't. Wasn't doing anything wrong. So therefore, I shouldn't have any, like, restrictions. But I was still so afraid because I didn't want to miss out on a mission or, you know, be shamed or. Or not take the sacrament, have girls look at it and be like, oh, my gosh, like, what's gonna happen here? You know? And so all of that goes to say, I. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] We're.

Marc Oslund [01:41:14] We're in Kansas. Um, my mission call arrives at Faith's family's house in Highland, and we're flying all the way back from Kansas. It's this long, miserable day with multiple flights and trips, and we go all the way to high. To Provo, and then I have to go back to highland, wait for BYUtv cameras to get there, open up my. My mission call. And it's just this whirlwind day, and, you know, my mom and dad are on the phone, and I think, you know, looking back, my mom's probably hurting because it's like, why is he there? Why is he doing this? And I don't. I. I don't register what, like, where I got called till later that night, and then I immediately start Temple Prep class. At this point, I'm living with Faith's brother and a couple other of. Of her brother's friends in Provo, going to a family ward up in Grandview, and had Temple Prep class, and Temple Prep prepared me for nothing. You know,

John Dehlin [01:42:07] I just have to say, your parents had to have felt like they were losing you, like they had. I can't. It's hard to imagine, from what you've told me, of two parents that were more dedicated to their sons.

Marc Oslund [01:42:21] Yeah. Son, son, daughter, son.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] So three kids.

Marc Oslund [01:42:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:42:24] Loving, gave everything. And from their perspective, and I guess especially. And you've already said this, but from your mom's perspective, it's like I've given everything, and they're just taking. They're taking my. My golden child. Yeah. They're taking him away, losing him for sure.

Marc Oslund [01:42:42] And it was like. Even you mentioning that, just, like, it makes me sad. What I didn't know.

The Temple Endowment Experience

John Dehlin [01:42:47] Are you getting emotional?

Marc Oslund [01:42:48] Yeah, for sure. Like, I. Like I. I feel that the tears welling up just because I didn't even know what I was doing. I obviously we're self centered when we're young. And I think that's, you know, intentional and good. But like. And my mom who still like, even if they like pushed back my mom and dad, it was never out of. They were just like, we don't want you to lose who you are. They loved my personality. They loved that I was fun and gregarious and they didn't want me to become a robot. They didn't want me to be upt about what I wore on Sundays. They didn't want me to stress out if I drank like a Snapple, you know, with tea. They just wanted me to be happy. And I was telling them this is what will make me happy. And at the time I really believed it. And they wanted to. I think they wanted to believe it for me, especially my mom. But I think they also had the wisdom of being older and saying I don't think so. And even like we'll, we'll get to it later. But like eventually I, you know, leave seminary and I am telling my mom about what I'm going through and I still had a hard time admitting that she was right because I think there's some sadness. I'm like, crap. I just like, we'll come back to that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] So your dad, your dad didn't like reactivate and your mom didn't join.

Marc Oslund [01:44:05] No, my. Yeah, yeah, none of that. So like my. I went to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] But they supported you by letting you do it.

Marc Oslund [01:44:12] For sure. For sure. My. My dad started coming back to church after I went on my mission because we'll get there.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] Let's go follow the calendar.

Marc Oslund [01:44:19] So. Yeah, perfect. So my. So I go to the temple in May. I go to the Draper temple because it was the first open house. So it was the first one I'd ever actually been through. I'm like, wow, this is gorgeous. And to be honest, I think temples are really pretty. I think they're.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] Of course they are.

Marc Oslund [01:44:29] I think they're goddess.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] They're multi million dollar edifices. Exactly.

Marc Oslund [01:44:33] And like man, we just know like conference just happened. Why are there 20 freaking temples announced?

John Dehlin [01:44:39] Don't get ahead of yourself.

Marc Oslund [01:44:40] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:44:41] Burley. And I'm just still mad. But anyway, like, like. And it's. And it's beautiful. And so I. I'm floored. And they don't tell you what's going on. I'm in temple prep. They don't. They talk about very abstract. Like read about the Garden of Eden. Like none of this prepared me. Not a word about what covenants were gonna be made. Just covenants will be made, you know, and, like, you will have blessings and promises and all of those things. Remember? I. The ideals of it sound really good. Then I show up, and I, like. I go to, you know, LDS distribution. I buy, like, the temple clothes. I'm like, what is this green freaking thing? Like, what am I going to be doing with this apron? What is. I didn't even know it was called the apron at the time. I'm just. I just bought what they told me to. And I, like, knew about garments, but I'm like, look, I'm like, dude, I wear, like, a white shirt underneath and, like, boxers. Like, what's different? You know? And I remember getting there with Faith family, and I felt so loved and supported by them.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] This is.

Marc Oslund [01:45:32] None of this is a critique on them, but I remember getting there and doing, like, the washing and anointing and being like, this is getting really culty, really quick. And. And Faith's mom said, just focus on the words of the. Of the anointing. And. And to be honest, I still think they're, like, they're powerful. I don't believe them, but I still think that there's There. It's a powerful idea, but I. I'm focusing on that. And then we get into the room, and it gets really, really quick, really culty, really quick, where I'm like, okay, like, why are we separated? God will not be mocked. I'm like, like, very, very. Mormons don't show emotion, really, other than just like, hi, brother. Like, really chipper and happy in the temple, where it's like, God will not be mocked. I'm like, what on earth?

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Or you will be in my power.

Marc Oslund [01:46:17] Exactly. Exactly. And so I'm like, what is gonna happen? Like, they. They said that we're gonna hear about the Garden of Eden story. I didn't know we're gonna be watching a movie. And that movie was bad. I mean, it's bad. It's bad acting. It's bad. There's a lot of bad about it. And just, like, all of a sudden, I'm, like, raising my hands and I'm doing stuff. And they're like, once. They're like, okay, now you will put on the robes of the priesthood. And I'm seeing people get dressed, and in my mind, it was like, red alert. Cult. Cult. Cult. Cult. Cult. Cult.

John Dehlin [01:46:48] Cult.

Marc Oslund [01:46:49] It freaked me out. I'm like, this is exactly what people were warning me about. Like, immediately, I'm like, oh. And I. I hated it. I Hated it. I hated the whole experience. I. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:47:04] But.

Marc Oslund [01:47:04] But here's the thing. The temple is supposed to be the pinnacle of our Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Yeah. The most sacred thing.

Marc Oslund [01:47:10] Yes. And the closest we can get to God. And so instead of saying, honoring my own feeling that was leading me. Right. I'm saying, well, must be me. Exactly. I better figure this out, because it's not the temple, it's me. I'm the problem. So I'm just sitting there, like, I'm not even thinking about what I'm saying, man. And all of a sudden, I'm making covenants. I'm like, give my whole life. Like what?

John Dehlin [01:47:34] Like.

Marc Oslund [01:47:36] But it's like, if. Oh. And beforehand they're like, if you want to leave, leave now. I'm like, I don't even know what I'm going to do at that point. I was like, I guess it's probably

John Dehlin [01:47:42] going to be fine.

Marc Oslund [01:47:43] We're just wearing white clothes. That's cool. We're all united, you know. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, now I'm in. Where do I get out?

John Dehlin [01:47:48] Yeah. For those who don't know, we're talking about when you go to the temple for the first time right before everything starts, they give you a chance to get up and leave, but, like, you're surrounded by your loved ones and where are you going to go? And are you going to make a big dramatic scene? So that's kind of the way for them to say, well, you know, you chose to be here, but you have no idea what you're about to experience. And it's like this roller coaster ride of weirdness.

Marc Oslund [01:48:14] Yeah. And you've been mentioning a lot recently, which I totally love, about informed consent. There is no informed consent with the temple. And recently there's been books like Rosie Card, who wrote, like, House of Light, you know, and it's about being explicit about the temple with the covenants early and, like, good on her. You know, I'll talk about this. In seminary, I taught very clearly, as clearly as I could from quotes about. About the temple, because I didn't want people to be blindsided. And then David Bennar gets up and says, hey, let's make sure that we are explicit about this. So my traumatic experience there, by the

John Dehlin [01:48:45] way, that's only because we pummeled them for over a decade, you know, to where we kind of forced them to make changes.

Marc Oslund [01:48:53] Yep. And only, you know, somewhat recently, like, I mean, within the last three, four years have I found out, oh, crap, like, they changed it dramatically from the 90s.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] Yeah. That's what I went through. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:49:05] Truly. And we'll have to talk about. I don't know how you. Like, I was freaked out.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Same thing, same thing. I mean, you're doing things. You're making these hand motions of slitting your own throat, of literally cutting out your own heart and then disemboweling yourself. And you're. You're. You're told that's what you're doing, and you make the. These motions and you're feeling like, this is the most violent, scary thing I've ever been involved in. And immediately it's like, but it's the most righteous. It's the pinnacle of Mormon righteousness, so it must be good. So I must be exact same thing.

Marc Oslund [01:49:42] That's crazy, because for me, that makes total sense. And I just can't believe, man, people were that in. You were that in. You were that committed.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Oh, yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:49:51] And then how insulting when people are like, oh, you just didn't want to commit. I'm like, do you know what we had to do to stay? Anyway, it's just. I get heated about that. Lazy learners and lax disciples just conference. Anyway, so I'm still like, the whole rest of the experience. And then we start, you know. You know, a prayer circle where there's, like, hand motions and, like, repeating words. I'm like, this is straight up a cult.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] Like, kind of chanting.

Marc Oslund [01:50:15] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:16] Yeah, yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:50:17] I'm lit. Like, literally, I'm thinking this is a cult. Like, just red alarms. I. I don't hear a single word of what's going on, because all it is is red alarm. Like, danger, danger, danger. Get out, get out, get out. And by the time we get to the celestial room, which, truthfully, I still. I would never go back there, I still think there could be repurposed uses for that, of meditative places. Think of Notre Dame in Paris and how just therapeutic and beautiful these beautiful spaces could be. But, like, seeing everybody wearing temple robes there takes the whole thing away from me, you know? Like, it's not that, but it's this beautiful room. It's quiet. It's one of the few places at the time for me where I could make, you know, just quiet in my own life. And I sat there with Faith's family, and I'm just trying to justify and justify and justify. And finally it hits me. I'm thinking of the leadership of the church and how they're branded as very smart doctors and PhDs and theologians, Harvard MBAs.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] Yep.

Marc Oslund [01:51:15] And I'm like, chicago Law School.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Yes.

Marc Oslund [01:51:18] You know, Supreme Court justice, they Utah state supreme court justice. And I'm like, if they are smart, if they can take. Keep doing it, I can keep doing it.

John Dehlin [01:51:25] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:51:26] So my anchor was prophets.

John Dehlin [01:51:29] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:51:29] My anchor wasn't myself. My anchor wasn't even Jesus. It wasn't. This is from Jesus. Because where does it ever say any about this in scripture? None. I mean, the Garden of Eden. I'm like, the Garden of Eden, that's not the temple. Like, you know. And so like for me, I clung to. We know this from my experience reading ensigns clinging to prophets at byu. Loving living prophets class. Clinging to prophets, Temple prophets. It's all about prophets. My whole faith truly was built on what they were saying and their interpretation of Scripture. Right. Because I didn't know how to read this. What Mark Twain calls chloroform in print. I don't know how to read this. So I need, you know, my, my book from my religion professor that has all these quotes to explain why these verses matter. And so it was prophets that I, without realizing that I was really like clinging to.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:52:18] Which ends up setting up a massive fall later because we find out, oh, they're not what they claim to be. But I, that that's what I felt. I thought, prophets can do this. And then what does everyone say? Just keep going back, keep going back, keep going back, keep going back. It will get better. So I like once a week at least, I'm in the temple with a full class load. Baseball. I mean, we're gone literally half 22 days of school. Not days. Days of school. We missed in one semester. And I'm still in the temple. At least once a week before I'd pitch, I would go to the temple. Like I was always trying to make it work. It never got better. It just got more. I'm more used to it every time. Those freaking green aprons. Every time I'm like, why? It's so weird. And the hats. I'm like, what is this? And then I would hate it. And I get to the celestroom like, okay, finally peace.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:53:10] And so. Yeah, but just so much self distortion and the sadness of not trusting my own authority, man. Like I, I'm. I'm proud that I'm getting that back. I think that's a focus of what I hope to do with my friends and others. Hey, you, you trust yourself. You know what's right. Trust yourself. And definitely was with my students. And so we'll obviously get to that. But yeah, but you knew, you knew

John Dehlin [01:53:34] There was something wrong.

Marc Oslund [01:53:35] Oh, totally, totally. And the literally the only thing was, these guys are smart. They can't be deceived.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] And you had that feeling that one time. Absolutely.

Marc Oslund [01:53:43] Absolutely deny that. Yep. Well, if I feel that, then I guess everything else has to be true too.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] Right? If you had that feeling that one time.

Marc Oslund [01:53:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] The rest has to be true.

Marc Oslund [01:53:53] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] And they have you for life. For life. Because you had that feeling that one time. Right.

Marc Oslund [01:53:59] And if you get back then, then you're bad because God spoke to you.

John Dehlin [01:54:03] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:54:03] And like, obviously they tell us, like, hey, keep getting more. And so I can justify and say, yeah, yeah, I'm getting spiritual experiences where, you know, I read a verse about being angry and then I had an opportunity to practice it later. I'm like, that was divine, you know, Or I'm feeling crappy about myself and someone says, God loves me. I'm like, wow, that's the spirit. And so there's more and more of that. Like, yeah, look, it's just piling up. The evidences are piling up. And none of it was really doctrinal evidence that I was worried about or historical evidence. I truly didn't know anything. I just wanted it to feel good.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [01:54:34] And so, yeah, I get my, you know, I get my mission to the temple, keep going to the temple. I go back home to LA for a couple. Couple weeks before going on my mission. There's obviously family tension there. My mom and I kind of had like a big falling out where she was really getting on me and my grandma. Not my Mormon grandma, my mom's mom. We were out to dinner and my. My grandma was like, shell, stop, do not talk anymore. And I've never heard my grandma, like, kind of talk that way because it was. It was getting heated. But now looking back, it's just my mom want be protective of her baby, you know, and, yeah, so I go to North Carolina or I go to the mtc. You know, I'm. I forget what. I'm a zone. I'm a zone leader, a district leader, one of the two, you know. Yeah, yeah, one of those. And like, again, I feel like I was charismatic, talented, convert, whatever else. And so I. I was kind of like the golden child. And I loved it, man. I was in. I was in, I was in. But, man, I was home sick. Even though I was right there in Provo. I had lived just a couple miles down the road at the dorms, and it just hit me bad, bad, bad. It just was the worst. Like, so, so rough. My companion is really sweet. But he was. He actually was on the autism spectrum. Got honorably excused from serving a mission, got a second opinion, came back, and I'm a jerk, cocky kid. I don't know how to. How to cope with somebody who is not. I speak really fast, I think really fast. I move really fast. Somebody who's not like that. I felt tethered, I felt bound. It was just. Just so much, you know, and, you know, the MTC is just like a water hose of indoctrination and all of these things. And I was just pumped to get out to North Carolina. All I wanted to do was to tell people they were loved. And I thought that the best way for that to be done was for them to join the Mormon Church. But truthfully, I just wanted people to feel that sense of security and safety the way that I had craved since I was a seventh grader, you know? So I get out to North Carolina, meet my mission president. He's a great. He's a good man, very strict. You know how mission presidents can kind of fluctuate. You'll get some that are very loose and understanding and others that are, like, by the book. The mission president before, very loose. Our mission president comes a transfer right before us. So he's. He's new and he, like, cleans house, sends a bunch of missionaries home, like, gets rid of missionaries in a lot of areas and is like, elders, you're going to be doing this, this, this, this, this. Read the missionary handbook every day, have it memorized, like, buy the book. Here's the problem. It wasn't so much. I mean, there are problems with that approach, but it's the person that I was, I was already that. Yeah, I needed somebody to be like, hey, Elder Oslin, just relax. You're doing good. You've given up your life. God is happy with you.

A Controlling Mission President

John Dehlin [01:57:28] You know, you were already high strung. Yes. You didn't need to be strung more tightly.

Marc Oslund [01:57:32] Dude. I read my. The most heartbreaking things. I read my first couple months of my missionary emails to my mission president and, like, trying so hard to be happy and just being like, I'm working really hard. Nobody wants to hear from us, but we're biking 17 miles a day and knocking on thousands of doors. And, like, I'm hurting a little bit. And he's like, well, if you don't feel like you're doing good, then you're not doing good and the Lord will tell you. And, like, I had a moment like, a couple years ago where I just read these journals and I just Like I just said like to my former self I'm like, all you needed was somebody to say that you're doing good. I never got that from anyone in Mormonism. I got it from the people I love, from my, you know, my in laws, I got it from faith family. I never ever got it from the leaders that I had. And so I'm so sorry. Hey, thanks John. I. But the problem was I kept going deeper and deeper to earn love. And I bought into conditional God and I bought into all of these things and my mission president was very big on personal revelation. Read the Book of Mormon every day with a question in mind, you'll get an answer and write in your journal. And I did it diligently. And so I got really big on that idea of getting guidance, revelation, what have you. And I truly felt like I was inspired but I was so worked up. Like there was days that I would just be. Here's I think the best example of how high strung I was. There's a day I was in my third era, I'd been out 18 months and I was just so, I felt so guilty if I wasn't out the door at 10am and back at 9 or 9:30, hopefully we were teaching so 9:30, but then I was guilty if I was back at 8:59 or 9:31, you know, it was just non stop and we woke up and it was like a rainy day in North Carolina. Windy, miserable, gray, just horrible. I just knew it was going to be a terrible day. We had literally nothing on our schedules. We had go bike 16 miles to a place we've never gone. Hopefully we'll knock some doors, find somebody we've never found. And the weather just kept getting worse and worse. We were living with members again who I love and I just, I had this internal battle where I'm like, I'm the zone leader, I'm the senior, like a senior zone leader. I'm the one that needs to make sure that we're doing what's right. I just like, we can't knock doors. It never works. Who wants to see two? I'm six foot five. Most of my companions were around six foot in dark clothes. Knocking who wants to open the door? You're a single mom, like you're gonna open up the door. It's creepy, it's scary. Like I hated knocking doors but I did it because that's how you get the spirit of missionary work. And I never had a single person, not one person. I don't even. We barely taught anybody that we knocked on doors with. But definitely nobody got baptized from tracting, you know. So I'm working myself up. I know it's not successful, but I feel this pressure and oh man, like the weather keeps getting worse. So I think, okay, what could we do? Okay, we can call members and just say, hey, we're thinking about you. Which to be honest, I think is really good. We care about you. How can we help you? I felt guilty for it because it's not missionary work. We're supposed to be finding new people. And you know, it's noon, we took an early lunch because I'm like, I still don't want to go. And I'm beating myself up. And then the weather gets really dark and the power goes out and the members come home and they're like, elders, there's going to be a tornado, you know, And I'm like, okay, well I guess we're not going now. And sure enough, tornado hits. And it's North Carolina doesn't really get tornadoes too often, but it hits literally in the area that we were supposed to go. We were going to be only on bikes 16 miles away from where we were. We would have been destroyed. I still felt guilty that night that I didn't knock doors. I'm glad I didn't die, but I'm like, God, please forgive me that I wasn't out doing missionary work that day. That's the type of high strung missionary I was. And I had nobody that would ever tell me that I was doing good enough. And all I needed was, was just my mission president to be like, Elder Ozen, you're a hard working missionary, you're a good man. I think I was successful. In North Carolina we don't get a lot of baptism. I had 40 baptisms or 24, 24 families, you know. And so like I feel like that's successful. One a month.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:02:01] In the South.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:02:02] And yeah, I still didn't feel good. So it's just, it's just shame on, shame on shame. My mission president was very driven. We met Elder Richard Scott when he was there and he was very loving. But I had this aura about prophets, right. Like they're just, they see into our soul. I believe that. And then David Bednar comes, man, he is, he's just like my mission president. He's high strung. Stand up when we're there. We were, we had this whole thing and he's like, hey, we'll have dinner. And then we got too loud and he's like, and you wonder why we're not baptizing. The spirit has left. We had such a sacred moment. Like, you see what I'm saying? And I'm just thinking it's just reinforced over and over. My mission president's getting. He's a businessman. He's all about numbers, which I get. And he's getting pressure from his leaders, so he's passing it on. And my mission president, only towards the end, started finally saying he would say, I trust you, which I knew meant a lot to him to say that only towards the end of my two years and his last 12 months did he start saying I love you to the elders. And, like, it totally meant a lot. And we're always supposed to follow our mission president, so it's so hard to even talk badly about him because I messaged him recently. Like, he doesn't know a lot of what's going on, but, like, I still have internalized affinity for them, and I believe in the goodness of every person, but it's still hard for me to even convey a sense of dislike for them, you know, or for him or for anyone.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] Totally.

Marc Oslund [02:03:39] And so my mission was an experience. My first. Oh, another example of strictness. My. My first Christmas. Zoom had. Or what was it at the time? Not FaceTime. Skype was a thing. And missionaries were getting to Skype. I didn't have that opportunity. One hour call and you're done. And I felt guilty because my call went, like, 102. You know, I was praying, like, forgive me for talking to my family, you know, so it's just so sad. Like, it's so sad, man.

John Dehlin [02:04:05] Like, and they've changed a lot of this.

Marc Oslund [02:04:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Made huge stinks about all this.

Marc Oslund [02:04:09] And that's. And that's the thing. And then. And then now people are like, see, we're good. And I'm like, dude, but the people you've run over in your wake without an apology. Like, an apology. Like, we're not just. I'm glad for the missionaries. I don't want them having to not talk to their families every week. I want them to be able to call whenever they want. But, man, wouldn't it have been nice? We are so sorry for all of the strictness we provided to our missionaries before and the harm we've caused. We are so excited to announce these following changes. That statement would have done so much for me, but it's just the no, we're moving on revelation, you know? Anyway, So I had 102. I called my mom, and my mom was like, so you're not having a good Time, Huh? Interesting. And she was like, kind of making digs. I think she was, again, just trying to help me tap into my own, trusting myself. But I was like, mom, I'm not leaving. And she backed off. And from that point on, like, I was committed. And that homesickness went away. And I don't know why, what that was, but that was kind of the moment where I'm like, I'm here. My mom knows I'm here. I'm staying here. And ended up having a really good experience, meeting good people. Well, fairly good. Right. Like, I didn't realize the internalized pain trauma that happened from that, you know? Yeah. So then go home. And had to again, succeed was the

John Dehlin [02:05:21] stuff with Elder Gonzalez. Oh, crap.

Marc Oslund [02:05:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Ah, okay.

Marc Oslund [02:05:24] Thank you. Geez. Can't believe I forgot.

John Dehlin [02:05:26] And there's also something about questions inviting revelation.

Marc Oslund [02:05:28] Yeah. So a big one was keep asking questions. Keep asking questions of my mission president, which is going to be a huge foreshadowing of just, it's okay to ask. What's the matter with asking? Well, I mean, we know what the matter with asking is, because if you're honest in your search, you're going to come across things that will not mesh with the predominant narrative.

John Dehlin [02:05:50] So you were having questions as a missionary?

Marc Oslund [02:05:52] A little bit, but. But more presented from me, like, from others, like, oh, do you know that Joseph Smith had multiple wives? I'm like, no, he didn't. Truly. No. Did you know that, like, black people couldn't have the priesthood? So I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was just. That wasn't doctrine, you know, but people in North Carolina were smart, right. They are biblically savvy. They're like, where does it say this in the Bible? Where does it say that? And I'm like, I don't know. I just joined the church a year ago. Please stop. You know, so enough. Yeah, enough.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Where I could.

Marc Oslund [02:06:20] Like, the seed was planted. But even just the idea that it's okay to ask questions, we don't need to be afraid of questions. That was planted very strongly. I don't think the intent was ever. Yeah. But go look it up on these sites or see these things. And I definitely think the intent was always remain faithful to Scripture, which I was my entire time teaching seminary and forward. But I feel like it allowed me to say, questions are good. David Bednar, Same thing. Our whole thing was ask questions and get guidance from the spirit. And so it was instilled in me that questions are acceptable. Not just acceptable, but a good thing, a necessary Thing to growth.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] That's good.

Marc Oslund [02:06:58] Yeah. And that will be passed on to my seminary students. That eventually will lead me towards other directions. My experience with Elder Gonzalez. So we had one of those. I don't know what was going on, but I think my mission president was getting some belated confessions from people. And in between the time I was at byu, they had, you know, had sex, masturbated, you know, any number of things. You know, drank, smoked, touched a girl

John Dehlin [02:07:20] or touched a girl's breasts or whatever.

Marc Oslund [02:07:22] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:07:22] Didn't repent.

Marc Oslund [02:07:23] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] And then they get out to the mission field, feel guilty and then confess.

Marc Oslund [02:07:28] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:07:28] And he was not liking that people were waiting until Correct. Getting out to the mission to repent and confess for things that they should have taken care of. Yep. Back home.

Marc Oslund [02:07:38] Spot on, spot on.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] So.

Marc Oslund [02:07:39] And I felt, I know I always, like, it's so weird because I consider, you know, I've been on the non Mormon side, I've been on the super Mormon side now the post Mormon side. And I remember, I forget how even like words like steak center. I literally thought we were going to have steak. Like just all of those things. It's so much so. I think he was getting tired of having so much so he taught a very, like, he went around zone conferences and did like a very repent, repent, repent lesson. Like, now, search your soul. Find the sins. You need to dig up whatever's there. And you know, that was already a problem for me. But in between the time I was at BYU and went on my mission, there were a couple girls that I had possibly gone maybe a little bit too far with. And my memory's hazy. John, I have to tell you, my wife, if she was here, she would tell you the same thing. I have the worst memory now. And I truly think it's because I forced myself to forget. Every time I was reminded of the bad things I did before I was Mormon, I just, nope, I don't want to remember. And like, my memory sucks now. Bad. And so I'm making up stories of, I know that this happened, but did this happen here? And et cetera, et cetera. And I just, I had a couple incidents with girls that I could think of and I'm like, is this pre mission, like preby win? Did I confess to a bishop? I don't remember. So I told my mission president very seriously, he's like, okay, I will need to have a conversation. I'll let you know how this goes. And so I'm in limbo, fearing what. So afraid that I'M gonna get sent home.

Mission Struggles and Early Return

John Dehlin [02:09:13] Sent home early.

Marc Oslund [02:09:14] Yeah. And I mean, look at that time. I was probably 20 something months in and like, I was a good missionary. Yeah. And like, and so I just felt so worried because we know what happens in Mormon culture, especially at byu, if you're an early return missionary. It's changing a little bit now, but if you're an early return missionary, girls are like, he's, he's defected. Nope, not marrying him. And so I was like, my life will be ruined if I go home early. And even if it's only four months. So my mission president calls his area, you know, supervisor or whatever, who's Elder Marco Gonzalez of the 70, and explains the whole thing. He says, hey, I just had a talk with Elder Gonzalez. He's gonna have to go to his supervisor. I don't know who he goes to, to see if you can stay. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. He's like, here's what I want you to do. In the meantime, you need to hand write letters to all of these girls. You need to call your. Or you need to email your parents and tell them what you've done. Like, another thing was a friend stole an ipod and he left it in my car and I kept it. And it's like, you need to give back all of those things. So my daughter, my dad, who, you know how good like, he is. My dad can't find this stupid ipod. He buys an iPod for $400, gives it to this friend and says, hey, Mark took this from you. And he's like, I don't even remember that, but thanks. My dad goes to Sports Chalet and gives him 50 bucks for glasses that one of my friends sold. My dad's going around doing all of this work. Like, I remember calling him because my mission, like, we never get to call him, like, dad, this. Or I was actually via email and told him what might happen. He's like, I'm so sorry. How can I help? What's going on? And then I was like, sorry, dad, like, the hour of email's over. And like, I couldn't even break that, you know? So anyway, Elder Gonzalez comes back and says, tells my mission president, I can stay. My mission president says, cool, I need you to write letters now to your baseball coach, to Tom Homo, who's the athletic director at byu. Let them know what you've done. Because it was right around the time of Brandon Davies, who had broken the honor code, you know, had sex with a girl and left out of the sweet 16 or whatever. Jim or Fredette era, Right?

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Yeah, I remember.

Marc Oslund [02:11:26] And everyone in North Carolina, right? Big basketball place, like you're byu, you know, Jimmer. I'm like, yeah, no Jim. And we're in the same weight room. Yeah, for sure. Like, is he good? And they're like, yeah, he's amazing. Because Jimmer, our freshman year wasn't anything. And then all of a sudden, jimmermania, you know, And I missed it all, so of course I did, but. But I got to stay. And I was like, instead of feeling abused and violated, I felt grateful. Thank you, church. Thank you for being merciful to me for these things that I may or may not have done or may or may not have already repented for. And on top of all of that, that aren't even bad, right? Like I'm a 19 year old dude who made out with a girl and maybe went too far. That bad. But the internalized shame and trauma that came from that man, it was just so deep. And

John Dehlin [02:12:10] yeah, I just have to say I. My master's thesis was on. For my psychology degree, it was on scrupulosity, which includes hyper confessing. It also includes making up memories about possible sins you committed because you're so desperate to be viewed as clean and righteous. And it sounds like you were experiencing some like, this is obsessive compulsive disorder, 100% diagnosable major. 100 major anxiety disorder.

Marc Oslund [02:12:40] Yeah, no question about that. And, and like I.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] There's a church is kind of exacerbating it.

Marc Oslund [02:12:44] Exactly. They are not only the cause because previous to doing this, there was nothing wrong. Yeah, it's normal. Yeah, you go smoke weed or you go smoke. Like I don't think necessarily. Like I'm not. I never would tell somebody.

John Dehlin [02:12:54] Like, no, no, it's just high school stuff.

Marc Oslund [02:12:55] Exactly, exactly. And so like. But now all of a sudden it's bad. So now they've created the problem and they're the cure. But by being the cure, it's also creating more harm.

John Dehlin [02:13:04] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:13:05] And so yeah, it's a, it's so true. And I, I've had a couple students that. And that's a huge part of my story. Seeing their trauma, similar things to me and me wanting to protect them. Like you're not doing what I had to go through. And so that, that shapes me as a teacher. But yeah, I get to stay. My mission president moves me to another area, which was, which was fine for the last six weeks. I also have to tell you, I was so strict that I got an email from the Detroit Tigers, while I was on my mission. Hey, we want to draft you. Just reply to this email, say you're interested. But we had a rule, no emailing people outside of your family or mission president. So I let the email sit deleted at my inbox. Never got drafted.

John Dehlin [02:13:45] Holy moly. Drafted twice. Yep.

Marc Oslund [02:13:49] So, yep. They. Man, this is why there's so much hurt where I'm like, I gave up everything for you. And it's left and right from the beginning to the end, just constant abuse and not feeling good enough. The limited praise I got or the reward of baptism or seeing people find joy. I'm like, I'll suffer all of that. Like, I'll suffer all the pain I have so I can see those. That little bit of joy so that maybe my family can be together. Like my patriarchal blessing says, one day your family will be an eternal family, as you have anticipated, as long as you remain faithful. So I'm like, well, I want my family forever. Therefore, I will endure whatever the church does to me so that I can ensure families not just can be, but will be forever. That conditional man, the conditional nature of God in Mormonism was internalized in ways that I couldn't realize at the time, you know, and it's. And it's toxic, and it's so far. It's so far from who God is or should be, you know? So anyway, that's. That's my experience.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Detroit down.

Marc Oslund [02:15:00] Detroit Tigers just deleted the email. Didn't even say a word. I think I might have emailed my mission president, said, hey, can I email them back? And I didn't maybe hear back. And so that just went by the wayside, you know. Oh, yeah, great. My coach writes me a letter after I confessed my sins to him for some reason, and he's totally understanding. Mark, I'm really proud of you. Love him. Vance Law, 1 the of 1 of the best people I know. He's just truly a good, good, good man. I think I got a letter back from Tom Homo, too. That was like, Mark, right?

John Dehlin [02:15:29] So weird. You're, like, writing the athletic director of BYU to confess sins from high school that you may or may not have committed. What a grueling, inhumane, process, for sure.

Marc Oslund [02:15:41] And even my weird. Yes. The girls I wrote to, they're probably

John Dehlin [02:15:44] getting these letters saying, why? Why is he writing these letters? Yes. What are they doing?

Marc Oslund [02:15:49] Like, what? I. Yeah, I don't know what the rationale was. And that's not a normal thing. Like, people don't confess to their athletic directors.

John Dehlin [02:15:58] Like, you know, At Division one University.

Marc Oslund [02:16:01] Exactly. I'm like, dude, if I would have gone to Irvine, man, I would have been fine. Like, I wouldn't have to write letters about having, like, touching a girl's boob over, like, you know, like, over their shirt, you know? But anyway, it's just. It's just so sad. And so did you tell us what

John Dehlin [02:16:14] the final Gonzalez verdict was?

Marc Oslund [02:16:16] Yeah, I could stay.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:16:17] And I think it was largely because I had four months left.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:16:20] He's so close. He's like.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] Just like.

Marc Oslund [02:16:23] I didn't talk to him. My mission president heard it. Yeah, my mission president was very direct. He's like, all I knew was, basically, you should feel so lucky that you're staying and write these letters, write these girls, confess, don't do anything again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I mean, oh, he took my recommend. I forgot.

John Dehlin [02:16:41] What?

Marc Oslund [02:16:41] He took my recommend. That's. Holy God. He took my recommend. And because I remember on my exit interview, he gave it back. He's like, you can now have a. Or he signed it, actually. He's like, I will now give you a recommend. But I'm like, how in the world am I going to be a missionary and not be able to go to the temple? How does that make sense? How am I. So now I'm, like, asked to give a priesthood blessing. I'm like, wait, but I can't go to the temple? He didn't restrict that. He just said, no, you can't have your recommend. I didn't miss a temple trick. But he was just like, nope, you. Nope. You have to. Basically, you have to earn it again. And I'm thinking, like, what in the world? What? What. What more can I do? I can't work harder. I can't read more scripture. I can't. Like, I literally am spending every minute, like, repenting, confessing, reading like you. I wish. Maybe we'll have my. My mission trainer who's a part of the story because he gets fired from freaking seminary. But, like, you could ask him. I am the strictest human in the world. Especially on my mission. Nobody worked harder than me. Maybe people worked equally as hard. But I'm telling you, like, I was so in. I literally couldn't do more. And so all that does is I will never be good enough. I physically cannot give up more. I can't work harder. I can't be more. So if it's still not good, I'm not good. I will never be good. And that was the message that just kept getting perpetuated. Perpetuated and eventually I get my recommend back as I go home and I'm clean again and. Oh, and I have to email my stake president and all that crap, too. So.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] So, you know, we. When you study, like, Scientology and you learn about their auditing and how they use stuff against you later, you think, oh, well, that's just awful. Right. But we've got our own form of that, because these confessions and these worthiness standards that no one can really, or few can really ever live up to, then you. You. You add the guilt and the shame and kind of this. Weeks or months of, like, we may send you home. You're really lucky. What does that do to your psychology? What does that do to your commitment to the church when they've got you on this worthiness hamster wheel where you're always feeling terrible about yourself? What is that? What type of bond does that create for you to the Church? I'm asking.

Marc Oslund [02:18:51] I mean, it's so deeply unhealthy. It's.

John Dehlin [02:18:53] So what does it make you feel?

Marc Oslund [02:18:54] I feel like. Like I can't exist without them. Like I need them.

John Dehlin [02:18:57] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:18:59] It becomes very codependent. Right. Where we fuel each other, and it's this toxic, terrible, terrible relationship. If this was. I eventually start teaching this in seminary, but I say, if God is that. I don't want that God.

John Dehlin [02:19:10] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:19:10] But I didn't. I didn't realize.

John Dehlin [02:19:11] But at the time, you're like, I'm bad.

Marc Oslund [02:19:13] Yep. Because that is God.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] And the only way for me to be. Have a chance is what is.

Trauma, Repentance, and Returning Home

Marc Oslund [02:19:19] Is I have to keep repenting. I have to keep being Mormon. I have to keep tithing. I have to keep serving. I have to. I have to be perfect as a Mormon person. I have to do everything or I have to repent nonstop. And it's. I mean, it's just. It's psychological torture. And it's slow and it's. It's unseen. And it's. Here's the hardest thing for me to recognize. Cause I. My default is to want to demonize people and be like, no, it's this one man that did it. No, it's not. He's a victim of the system, too.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:19:47] And even prophets, where did they get that crap from? I don't know. But I want to blame them more. I'm easier to blame them than anybody.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] But the truth is there's no, like, dude, sinister dude in like a. In like a control center going, let's do this to Mark. It's. It's what the system does to otherwise Pretty probably really good people.

Marc Oslund [02:20:08] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] And it's just like, it's like a. It's like a stone cut out of the mountain without hands. It's like a machine that just, just grows and grows and can't be controlled anymore.

Marc Oslund [02:20:18] 100% right. You're spot on.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:20:21] And I just. Yeah. So one part of the story that we'll get to is just me recognizing everybody is good at their core. I truly believe everybody. So if that's true, where do bad people get bad things? Oh, it must be bad systems. And then I start, you know, critiquing. But. But yeah, the trauma, man, it's. It's so real and so heavy and so hard. And getting back to LA, I was like, I mean, NC's a lot slower. A couple of the towns I served in were, you know, one stoplight towns or what have you. And even in general the bigger cities like Raleigh compared to downtown la, like, like night and day. And I come back and I feel like I'm just in a. Like the epicenter of sin, you know,

John Dehlin [02:21:00] And I'm driving Goggin magog.

Marc Oslund [02:21:03] Exactly. Like LA's LA and Vegas are being taken first, you know, and maybe San Francisco, because I guess like I was told that I had to hate gays on my mission. People on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:21:12] And.

Marc Oslund [02:21:12] And so it's just so. It was so hard.

John Dehlin [02:21:15] You're in Sodom and Gomorrah when you get off your mission.

Marc Oslund [02:21:17] Yep. And I'm just like, get me out of here. Like my sinning family. And that's the worst. And I knew I didn't want to be that, but I couldn't help it. And the judgment, I don't remember what I said or did, but I know that my sister was like, you sucked when you came home. We did not like being around you. You were so judgmental. You were so mean and yeah, really tragic. I did fail to mention my brother ends up getting baptized while I'm on my mission. About a month in, my dad starts going back to church because my brother can't drive. So that's the thing. My mom now feels very.

John Dehlin [02:21:52] Talk about your brother getting baptized.

Marc Oslund [02:21:55] Yeah. So I, I was super pumped. I'm like, it's happening, right? Like, I'm faithful. I'm on a mission. My first month, my brother gets baptized.

John Dehlin [02:22:02] Well, how did he get baptized?

Marc Oslund [02:22:04] So he, I think just kind of saw me. I. I've kind of been. I think I was a role model. And I think he saw me and was like, I'm interested in this. And we had a conversation right before I left. We went to this nice, like, resort with my grandparents in Palos Verdes, California. And. And we had a talk about, hey, Tommy, like, you need to read this book. If you can read this and you get a testimony, I want you to get baptized. And so I think he was looking up to me and he said he read it, and then he had his own internalized shame because he joined before high school or like. Yeah, right before high school started for him. Then he did a lot of the similar things I did, but he was Mormon at the time, so he had same internalized shame, but he was actually Mormon. Mine was. I was washed clean. I got all the bad out, you know, and so my dad was watching him, and my dad started coming back to church, and my dad got reactivated.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] Wow.

Marc Oslund [02:22:57] Crazy, right? He ends up doing really good. He stops drinking. He's able to get a temple recommend before I go to byu. I'm my dad's escort at the temple and at. In the LA temple. And I feel so vulnerable because I know how much I hate the temple. And seeing my dad, like, very kind of childlike, like, I don't really know what's going on here, and me feeling, like, responsible for that and being like, I'm so, like, wanting to soften the blow of, like, this is weird crap, man. But, yeah, so my dad, he'd wear garments, but then I think they just got uncomfortable. He was a bigger dude, so he was hot. And anyway, my mom felt very alienated. It became very divided in my family. It's the. It's the three guys versus the two girls, and the three guys are Mormon and the two girls are not. And there's a lot of division and a lot of frustration, I think, with my mom feeling like my dad betrayed her. Like, I thought you were going to take my side, and now you've taken their side, which will play out significantly when I get married in the temple, because that was a big, big, big deal for a lot of. So, yeah, then I go to go back to byu, play baseball.

John Dehlin [02:24:07] So your mom didn't succumb to the peer pressure.

Marc Oslund [02:24:10] No.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] Her husband reactivates her two sons. Not. Your sister didn't get baptized, but. But you. But the lady. The. The women held out.

Marc Oslund [02:24:17] Yeah. Which is interesting because I. I mean, my experience has been that especially on my mission and in seminary, more typically, females have been receptive to spiritual things, whereas guys are kind of like, I don't want to talk about it, you know? And so it was Interesting. I actually think my mom and sister are very wise and hard headed and I think they're able to see through some of the crap that perhaps me, my dad and brother, who are very, I think, shame prone, I think we succumb to it because we found an idea of hope and healing and peace and all of those things that perhaps my mom and sister were more resistant to. In a good way. Yeah. So. And my sister is at Texas Christian University. Like, like she's not going to be Mormon. Like that's not going to happen there. And then goes to grad school at University of North Carolina and like it's just, she's not surrounded by it, you know.

John Dehlin [02:25:03] That's Lubbock, right?

Marc Oslund [02:25:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:05] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:25:05] No, it's in Fort Worth. Yeah. Yeah. So the rich, the rich girl, they always said like the oil. The oil family school, you know.

John Dehlin [02:25:12] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:25:12] But yeah, so she loved it and yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:25:17] Fun.

Post-Mission Life, Marriage, and the Temple

John Dehlin [02:25:18] So you, so you're. You get off your mission. Yep. And what do you do then?

Marc Oslund [02:25:27] Go back to byu. Okay. After sophomore. Sophomore, yep. So after going to the temple with my dad, go back to BYU immediately. Man, I wish I would just love like some of my teammates to be in here. I was so judgmental of some of them who, you know, were non members or less active members and being like, this is the Lord's school. Like, how could you swear?

John Dehlin [02:25:48] You're insufferable.

Marc Oslund [02:25:49] I was the worst. And like I'm, I'm very strong in my opinions and so like if they were listening to bed, I'm like, get this off. And I would never swear. Get this crap off. You know, and, and they just hated me and they should have. I was a freaking jerked. Right. Like this guy is so uptight and I'm just ins, I'm literally insufferable. That's. That's the word. And I'm getting, you know, ready. I'm at that time I come back home and I try to meet up with Faith again. And I just didn't feel, I think probably because there's shame associated with our past, I want to separate. And also we didn't have like, we weren't always happy. We were like, we were 16 year olds dating and we weren't ready. And so, yeah, lots of fights or whatever, so that ship kind of sailed. But I came home and I saw Rachel, who's my wife now, right. Who I'd gone to school with since fifth grade. And now I'm like, I'm a returned missionary, I'm clean, I'm good. Maybe now would be a good time. You know, I liked her. I thought she was pretty and all of those things. Now might be the time where I can maybe try. No time's gonna be better than now. I'm only gonna get worse. Right after my mission. So I asked her if she wanted to hang out. I actually went on, like, a date with another girl after my homecoming. Talk. Cause I was just, like, so spiritual, you know, Like. And I could just tell that she just wanted. And she did want to go on a date with me. And then she married a BYU football. Cause he was way more normal than I was. And so then I asked Rachel to go on that date with us, to bring a date. And she was like, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Why would I go on your date? I'm like, no, bring a friend. Cause in my stupid brain, I was thinking, like in the movies, I would be on a date with this girl. She and I'd be on a date with that guy, and we'd switch. Cause I didn't know how to bridge that friend zone gap with her, you know? And so we hung out a couple times. I went up to BYU before she went up to Rexburg. She was at byu, Idaho, which, sad story. We found out I got into BYU and she didn't. She had always wanted to go to byu. Like, Mormon family. Yeah, exactly. So she. Her dad was a bishop, her grandpa's a patriarch. Her uncle was our bishop. Now as the stake president in. In Torrance North Stake. Like, BYU through and through. Like, the most Mormon family you've ever seen. You know, like, if you watch the south park episode, like, the nice happy blonde, like, that's her family. And. And she didn't get in. We were in ceramics class, and we found out together. And I'm like, I did. I just heard of BYU three months before. Like, so that was tragic. But she. She decides to come up and visit me. She stays with her sister who was at byu, Provo. And. And then we hung out. And one day, like, we went up Provo Canyon, and I told her that I had liked her for a long time and kind of revealed that to her. And. And she was just listening and listening, like, hearing me finally share feelings I had had for her. And so we. I said, rachel, I can't come up. I'm playing baseball. If we want to make this work, you're going to have to drive from Rexburg to Provo to visit. And so she was willing to do that. So we became an item. I Had to break up with, like, another girl that I not break up, but cancel a date. It was very awkward story that Rachel loves to rub in on me. But anyway, and it was great. And I had a great baseball season. My arm really hurt really bad.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] Because you had. You had not played for two years, right?

Marc Oslund [02:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:08] So you were probably out of shape.

Marc Oslund [02:29:09] Totally out of shape. I didn't realize the pain I was in, like, going back, lifting, running, all of those things until my junior year when I realized, wow, you're not supposed to hurt. Just existing, you know, the muscles I hadn't used. Remember, I. I had signed the letter saying, I'm not going to play professional baseball.

John Dehlin [02:29:26] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:29:27] And knowing that the Lord would make up for it. I did the same thing with my. On my mission, where I said, you know what? I'll go. I'll work out for 30 minutes. But I didn't bring a glove. I didn't do. I did nothing. And I thought, God will make up for this. He will make it work. And, like, I was in decent enough shape and I played well, but, like, my arm just hurt. Like, my elbow. And like, my velocity, like, my. My speed, it was typically between 88 and 92. It was down to, like, 84, 85, which is. That's not college baseball. College baseball. At a minute, you gotta be hitting 88. And I would still get people out because I think I was competitive and what have you. But something was. Was lacking, you know, And I. I have an opportunity to get drafted again by the Detroit Tigers. Again. Okay, so a third time. The third time they said, hey, we know you're engaged. So eventually, Rachel and I get engaged. Awesome. Obviously, I love her, but they said, we know you're engaged. You're going to get married in August. We need you to be playing baseball between June, July, and August. So if you want to get drafted, you can't get married in August. And I'm like, no, I'm getting married because the temple is the most important thing in a temple marriage. And I love Rachel and all those things. So I turned them down again. So three times now. Once an actual. Like, I actually got drafted. The other two, I would have gotten drafted, but I said no, because I wanted to prioritize other things, you know, which. Rachel and I talk all the time like we love each other. I'm so glad we're married. But, like, the reason people get married at age 22 is because they want to have sex and not feel bad about it. I mean, maybe not solely they love

John Dehlin [02:31:09] each other, but Also because our mission president says your number one goal now that you're leaving, your mission is to get married as soon as you can and have as much babies as you can. I don't know if you had that experience 100%.

Marc Oslund [02:31:19] Yeah. When I left. So he gave me back my recommended, now go find a wife. And so now I've gone from, hey, I just want to see pretty girls too. I'm gonna marry somebody. And fortunately, like, Rachel is amazing. I think she's been amazing since I've known her. But, like, the rush through it was certainly inspired because of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:31:39] And I wouldn't. I don't wish I wasn't with Rachel. That's what makes this story hard, because I love Rachel. I love our life together. I love our son so much. But, man, all the other stuff that came, it's. It's. It's. It's all Mormonism. I took a quiz, like, the life's biggest decisions. And most people, like, did not put religion as number one, but, like, religion is number one, 2, 3, 4, and 5. For me, like, it's. It's everything. Nothing in my life would be what it was if it wasn't for religion. And so I'm really grateful that I'm married to Rachel. But, yeah, we got married.

John Dehlin [02:32:13] Why are you sad? Why you're feeling sad?

Marc Oslund [02:32:15] Yeah, I'm feeling sad because I just. What would my life have been like? Would I have lived in la? I still love la. I feel like an Angeleno at heart. Like, in the winters in Utah, I get Seasonal Affective Disorder, and I start thinking, what am I doing here? And now I think about our son, where I'm like, are we gonna live in Utah county forever? Which there's nothing wrong inherently with Utah county, but my experience was so good. Like, going to the beach in. In October and seeing the sunset and being around people who were different. Being around my best friend. I had black best friend. I had a Mexican best friend. I had, you know, all of these people in my life from different places, different. I found out later religions. You know, we had Muslim people and. And Hindu people, and we had Japanese people. Like, we just had everyone. And then I look in Utah county, and it's the most homogenous place in the whole world. And I want my son to not be like one of my friends who went to school in Utah county in the 80s and had their first black student show up, and they had to have an assembly of how to treat a black kid in the 80s or 90s. And I'm just like, that was never a thought for me. And so I get sad thinking, what could have been.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:33:27] And I'm like, dude, I gave my life to Mormonism. Like, God, where were you? Like, like, why am I not making millions of dollars playing baseball right now?

John Dehlin [02:33:34] Yeah. And so most people, most people don't make the high school varsity team, but if you do, you usually don't ever get to play college ball, but then if you do, you pretty much almost never go pro, but you certainly don't get three offers to go pro, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you gave that up for something that you believed.

Marc Oslund [02:33:59] What I believe was, right, true, good, necessary. The only way I don't feel like if I would have done anything different, I did want to make, like, wow, look at what I'm giving up. But I also thought if I did something different, I'm going to hell. Like, or I will be punished or whatever else, because I would not be true to my testimony. And that was the most important thing. Just remain faithful at all costs. And I, I. There's certainly some cost. Everybody has cost, right. To be Mormon. There is a cost for every person. And I don't know if it's necessary to weigh them and say, oh, mine or more. Mine were bigger, but they certainly were huge for me. Yeah. And so this is something that, you

John Dehlin [02:34:40] know, I've been talking to. People don't know this yet, but they might by the time this episode comes out. I've been talking to Leah Remini and Mike Rinder a little bit, and one of the things that, you know, they're trying to wrap their brain around, it's like, well, Mormonism doesn't put people in prisons. They don't abduct people's spouses, and then they disappear forever. They don't send out, as far as we know. They don't send out, you know, people to harass you and sue you into oblivion. Like, so Mormonism's. It's okay. Like, it's just this nice, pleasant, good people, friendly. And what I, you know, and I'm not trying to say it's all bad either. There's so much good. Like, we, we had that discussion at the beginning of our, of this episode, for sure. But what it does do is it is persuades you to base your whole life on something that if it's true, then, yeah, give it all up. But what if you give it all up and it's not true?

Marc Oslund [02:35:43] Correct. That's the thing.

John Dehlin [02:35:44] Or it turns out to not be true for you.

Marc Oslund [02:35:46] That's the thing.

John Dehlin [02:35:46] What's that called?

Marc Oslund [02:35:47] Oh, man. Trauma, let down, heartbreak, shatter, like earth shattering. Just, I mean, that's, there's the whole talk, right? It's true, isn't it? It's what else matters.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:35:58] And I'm like, I love baseball, but I guess I don't love it as much as I love Mormonism. I love this, but I don't look like man. And then when the, when the, when the rug falls out underneath you. And the irony of, here's the irony of my story and that we're getting to is I would still be Mormon today if I wasn't so abused by seminary leaders. I would still be enduring it. Or maybe, I don't know, 2020 was kind of a beast.

John Dehlin [02:36:22] We'll get there. We'll get there.

Marc Oslund [02:36:23] But yeah, so, so you fall in love. Fall in love, get married. Wait, okay, but this is the hard thing, okay. The hard thing is I have to tell my mom, who's not welcome at the temple. And so wait, you, and get, you

John Dehlin [02:36:36] get engaged to Rachel home how many months after your mission?

Marc Oslund [02:36:39] So I get home in August and we're engaged in March.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:36:43] We, I, I justify it by saying, and it's true, we did know each other since fifth grade. We didn't know each other in romantically.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] I mean, it's weird because in my mind I'm thinking, well, it's a little bit late, you know, six months, you know, for sure. For other. But for non Mormons it's like, what age is six months?

Marc Oslund [02:36:59] It's so true. Like, my friends now, like, you know, I'm 31. All of my friends, we graduated, you know, high school in 2008. They're like just now, like most of them don't have college degrees. They're not even thinking of settling down. Some of them just barely settling down.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:37:12] And I'm like, I've been married since 2012. Like I have a two year old. Like a couple of my friends have kids, but it's not because. Yeah. Anyway, but you know, so. Yeah, it's just, it's, it was so. I love Rachel. I want, and I am so grateful I'm with her, I really am. But having to tell my mom because I knew it was hard when I went on my mission, but I'm the first one to get married. I'm the first grandkid to get married. I'm the first grandkid to leave home, all of those things. So I tell her and I mean, she knows what that means. I said, mom, we want to do a ring ceremony for you. And she's like, don't patronize me. I know what you're doing in there.

John Dehlin [02:37:55] Okay.

Marc Oslund [02:37:56] And so anyway, I asked my dad, who's still active at the time. I asked him to be a witness. He's the only member of my family at the temple. In the temple. All of Rachel's. And mercifully, we know the same people because we grew up in the same place. So it did feel like I. I had support. But I will tell you, like, thinking of my family, being outside, thinking of my grandparents. When my brother ends up getting married and had a wedding that wasn't in the temple, my. I was talking to them at the reception, and they were like, our first wedding. And I'm like, I've been married for four years. Like, that wasn't a wedding. I'm like. Like, oh, I guess from your perspective, it really wasn't. Like, how would that have been a wedding? So my dad does come. He is our. Our witness, and then we go on our honeymoon.

John Dehlin [02:38:42] Okay, wait. So your parents were not allowed to go in the temple?

Marc Oslund [02:38:45] My dad was. My mom wasn't.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] So your dad got to go, but your mom had to sit outside. And what was that like for her?

Marc Oslund [02:38:51] Horrid. And. And for her parents who were there? Like, it was just horrid and feeling unloved. And my mom, who wants to be kind and supportive, I know she was fighting back bitterness of, who are these random people? Like. Like friends that we knew. My former little league baseball coach was in there, who's Mormon and my mom's not. And just so much like, she ended up telling me later, she's like, I'm not worthy in your God's eyes to go to this building. Not good enough. Because I drink tea, because I wear dresses that don't have sleeves on them. And I'm. How do I answer that? You know, like, in my mind, I'm like, mom, you're. I want you there. You deserve to be there. And at the same time, I feel like I have to defend the church and say, no, the church's way is right. Like, the word of wisdom. If you drink tea, you're not worthy to go to heaven. What the hell sorry kind of teaching is that? What is that? What is that? How.

John Dehlin [02:39:46] How.

Marc Oslund [02:39:48] How can I. Like, I did believe it, and I taught it, but, like, what would that be like to be my mom and hear that? And, man, I just. It infuriates me. And she ended up, like, she was really hurt, understandably. So and she basically told my dad, like, you have chosen your son over me. We were supposed to be a team. Why did you go there? How could you be there? That's unacceptable. And my dad was like, I'm not choosing the church over your mom. And so my dad's like, I'm not going to, because my mom. Your mom is so hurt from how this was. And so my dad stopped going at the time. I'm like, but, dad, like, Jesus, what would Jesus want you to do? I had a conversation. He's like, mark, if your family was sick on a Sunday and you had to go to the store and buy medicine, would you do it? I'm like, no. Keep the Sabbath day holy. My dad's like, you're insane. Like, you're crazy. My dad's like, your family, Mark, should always come first. And, like, it's so hard, right? Because now, as a dad, I'm like, yes, dad, you got it right. Family should always come first. But as a son, I'm thinking, dad, you're totally wrong. Look at you. You're being deceived by Satan. Mom is inspired by Satan. Mom is dragging our family down. And, like, the fact that those were even thoughts in my head is so embarrassing. Is not the right word because it's not my fault. But it's so. Like, how could I have ever thought that about two people who. And my whole family who have forever been so good to me, you know, how could a religion that's supposed to be so loving, that's supposed to be all about family, do this to my family? You know, I gave, dude, I gave it all up for Mormonism. And all it gave in return was strained family relationships, heartache, frustration, bitterness between me and my mom. Like, it destroyed our relationships that we're still rebuilding very slowly now. And I can't. Like, I tell my mom, and I'm like, I'm sorry. What's sorry gonna do to sorry? Bring us back to 2012 in the temple. Does sorry, you know, bring back the judgment that I passed on her? No, it doesn't. And she doesn't get it completely because she was never in. So from their perspective, it was my choice to be this way. And for me, I'm like, mom, I would never have, like, just chosen this freely. Like, I didn't. I was just doing what I thought I was supposed to do, you know? So, yeah, a lot of freaking anger there, for sure. And sadness, obviously.

John Dehlin [02:42:21] So your mom was left out of the temple. You said your dad did or didn't.

Marc Oslund [02:42:24] My dad did go okay.

John Dehlin [02:42:25] Because you said he had. Said he wasn't gonna. But he ended up. I. I'm wondering if he was really worthy or if they kind of pulled

Marc Oslund [02:42:32] some strings he might have or. Or if he was. He didn't. Didn't tell anyone because I think my dad's always been like, why do I have to tell this guy, like, some random bishop, you know?

John Dehlin [02:42:39] Yeah, yeah. Not to judge him.

Marc Oslund [02:42:41] No, no, no, no, no. Like, he. He definitely. I don't. Like, he wasn't wearing his garments. Like, I know that, you know, which is funny. But, like. And he wasn't drinking. He hasn't. He hasn't had a drink of alcohol since, you know, my brother gets baptized or whatever. So, like, awesome for him because it's mainly a health thing. Like, it helps him. It helps. But yeah. So I don't think you. My dad has never been. Like, I was in. Mentally. Like, I. I knew the doctor back and forwards. Like, I was a freaking seminary teacher. My dad was never that way. Like, he knew the bare bones of Mormonism. And so therefore, yeah, worthiness was not a thing for him.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] And that's another thing. Like, we talk about Scientologists or Joe's witnesses that, like, ostracized, you know, that, like, shun, shun. And you know, you can't ever talk to your family member again kind of thing. We don't do that. But look at the stress and division that. Look at the wedge that the Church was putting between you and your mom and between your mom and your dad. For sure. For sure. That's real.

Marc Oslund [02:43:37] It's so real. I think the word that has come to me, as I've thought about that is the Church allows plausible deniability. No, we're not Scientologists.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] We don't have that kind of shunning.

Marc Oslund [02:43:48] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:43:48] No.

Marc Oslund [02:43:49] Look, we're happy. We love family. They have just enough to be like, we're not like them, therefore, we're not doing those things. And that's not true. But they have the right language and the right ways and their PR team and enough to be like, again, plausible deniability. No, no, no, no, that's not. You've interpreted that wrong. That's not what we intended. But we know. Look, I. I really, truly think I was the epitome of the golden convert doing exactly what I was supposed to do. Join the Church, give up my whole life, go to byu, go on a mission, come back, teach seminary. Like, is that not the dream? If you had a convert like that, wouldn't you be like, wow. Like, so I'm doing this.

John Dehlin [02:44:24] Be an all American athlete. Don't forget that.

Marc Oslund [02:44:26] Yeah, thanks. You're nice. Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] It's no small thing.

Marc Oslund [02:44:30] You're nice.

John Dehlin [02:44:30] You're nice.

Marc Oslund [02:44:31] I like. And so that's the thing, though. Like, they're like, no, but that was just you. You didn't have to interpret it that way. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I didn't want to, but you told me. Or quotes from prophets. There's some culture, some talk that got ingrained. And so that plausible deniability gives them enough leeway to be like, I don't think Mormonism is a cult, but there's cult like behavior. The plausible deniability allows them to say, we're not a cult, we're a religion. But the plausible deniability also for me says that's cult like behavior.

John Dehlin [02:45:01] Yeah, for sure.

Marc Oslund [02:45:01] And we can't call you out, so there's the stress of that, you know?

John Dehlin [02:45:05] Yeah. I.

Marc Oslund [02:45:06] It was so hard. And like, so Rachel and I come back to Provo and happy, you know, but my mom and our relationship is strained.

John Dehlin [02:45:13] Wait, you. You also got to mention Rachel's experience at the temple. Oh, and. And the reading the Book of Mormon.

Marc Oslund [02:45:23] Thank you. Okay, I'm. So you're.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] I got your outline here. Good. Yeah.

Marc Oslund [02:45:26] You're like, for everyone that's watching, like, I have to draft this because I literally forget things. I don't know if it's trauma response or just because I taught myself to have a bad memory because I didn't want to remember my past self. So I. I literally have to write things down or I forget. So before we get married, I know that Rachel's not reading the Book of Mormon every day, which is, you know, again, my mission president made a promise twice in our mission newsletter. Said from Marion Romney, if you read the Book of Mormon every day, not one child will ever permanently go astray. You know, he said, I promise you in the name of the Lord, my mission president, multiple times. So I'm holding this as doctrine, you know, and so I'm dating Rachel and realizing she's not reading the Book of Mormon every day. Like, Rachel, you need to read every day.

John Dehlin [02:46:10] And she comes from this awesome family. Right, Exactly.

Marc Oslund [02:46:13] So this is what I've always said about Rachel. Rachel is what Mormonism should be without having to do any of the steps to do it. She is just. She is good and kind and loving and funny and all of those things. I had to force it into myself. Rachel's like, what Do I need to read scripture for like, you know? And I couldn't compute. I couldn't compute. I'm like, no, but this is mandatory. And she's like, I try. They're boring. I'm like, the scriptures are not boring.

John Dehlin [02:46:37] You know what I mean?

Marc Oslund [02:46:39] Like, how dare you? It's like, so insulting, you know? And. And I mean, she's just, like, looking at me like, dude, you are weird. But she's putting up with it because she remembers that I'm normal because my high school, she's like, I know that this guy's normal in here somewhere.

John Dehlin [02:46:51] You know?

Marc Oslund [02:46:51] So I think that gave me some benefit of the doubt with her. But poor Rachel, I just kept hounding her and hounding her and hounding her about reading, reading, reading, and eventually said, mark, you need to stop. I am not going to read the Scriptures. And I remember saying, this is a deal breaker, Rich. I don't think we can do this. And like, I go on a drive around the Provo Temple and I'm talking to my dad and I tell him what I'm worried about. And my dad, his response was, mark, are you an idiot? He's like, are you stupid? You're gonna break up with Rachel because she's not reading the Book of Mormon every day? I'm like, dad, this is. He's like, mark, you will be making the biggest decision of your life if you do this. And I'm like, well, my dad's never said that before. So I, you know, I eventually, I start praying desperately, desperately, like, God, help me, like, I want my family to be forever. But Rachel's not reading, and I love her. And, ah. And I remember having the thought like, it was. It was shocking to me. It was. It was not what I was expecting. But the thought that I had was, yeah, and she's loved anyway. And it was literally a foreign concept to me that you could not be doing all of the Mormon things and still be loved. I like it. I believed it when I had that realization, but I didn't believe it from. I didn't believe it because I didn't believe it for myself, because I wasn't loved right by anyone. Nobody showed any love for me, and I was doing everything. So how could Rachel still be loved and not even be reading the basic. The Book of Mormon? The Keystone, you know? And that was like, groundbreaking for me to think about the fact that she was just loved perfectly.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] So you kind of got that revelation, so to speak.

Marc Oslund [02:48:32] For sure. For sure. And. And like, I. Again, there's There's a lot of recontextualization that I know. Like, if, you know, seminary teachers that I have, that are friends, that are listening, be like, look at that. Justifying. I'm like, no, but we have. We have revelation that comes. That we interpret in certain ways because we've been told to interpret it in those ways. I think that with further understanding, we can look at the same experience and say, no, no, I don't think that was God. That was the name I gave for it then, and that's fine. But that moment, I don't. That doesn't have to be a divine being speaking into my ears, which I don't even understand the mechanics. I never understood the mechanics of how that worked. But, like, I truly sensed my, like, subconscious was saying, everybody's loved, Mark. You're love. It was trying to, like, bring that back out of me. So that's how I've reinterpreted it. And the hard thing is in telling the story is that I know that there's judgment of, like, look at that. Like, he just gave up on his testimony. He just. He. He's denying his testimony from God. And I'm like, that's.

John Dehlin [02:49:26] But.

Marc Oslund [02:49:26] But man, with all the other information, you know, so, like, it. It's hard. It's hard to be open about that.

John Dehlin [02:49:31] But the other thing that's weird is that Rachel's this good human, and you're, like, having to do all this work just to get to the point where you can think she's a decent human because she doesn't read a book that's, like, super hard to read and not always helpful when you do read it. You know what I mean?

Marc Oslund [02:49:48] Yeah. Like, Mark Twain says chloroform in print. And, like, it wasn't until I saw that, like, a couple years into teaching seminary, I'm like, dang it, Rachel.

John Dehlin [02:49:54] She knew it.

Marc Oslund [02:49:54] You know, Mark Twain. But no, what you just conveyed is exactly what she would say if she was here. Like, and what she told me, she's like, mark, do you know how hurtful that is, that I'm not loved as I am by you, That I have to be doing this in order to be loved fully? And I'm like, no. But she's like, no, you don't get it. And she hung up, and I was like. She held my feet to the fire. And what am I supposed to say, like. Because she's right. That is how I thought. It's not what I, deep down felt, but it's what I felt. Like, I had to feel. And there's also an element of patriarchy

John Dehlin [02:50:29] to it where you're like this returned missionary and you're like, getting all righteous and she's not living it like she could. So it's. There's a power dynamic there where you're kind of making. And I'm not saying you're trying to do this, but the system is leading you as the returned missionary, as the guy who's doing all the things that you should be doing to make her inferior to you 100% in the relationship.

Marc Oslund [02:50:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:50:52] I don't know. I'm just. No, no, no.

Marc Oslund [02:50:54] You're a spot on. You're spot on. And like, for me, it was like, how do I. How do I not manipulate? That was never a word I would ever use. But how do I, like, convince her? How do I show her? And I'm like, well, the doctrine of covenant says with an increase of love and da, da, da, da, da. But I'm like, do I do it with anger? Do I do it by withholding affection? Like, none of that is healthy. And that's totally patriarchal. That I can't just listen to my wife or my future wife and say, yeah, for sure. The way that you feel is the way you feel. And I'm just gonna let it. You do do it because you have your own agency and your own thought process. Like, I absolutely was not on board with that. And so it was. It created a lot of tension. Eventually I got over it, which I'm glad for.

John Dehlin [02:51:31] But I just want to make the point that, like, even when you're on your mission, like, if we're thinking about, like, just general humans on this planet trying to do what's right. Compare you to, like, all these high school buddies, right? Or Rachel, like, not reading the book. Compare her and, like, what type of life she's living with, like, so many other humans on the planet at that age. These are, like some high quality humans. And you're all feeling like you're worthless and terrible, and there's all these manufactured crises that are literally just like, made up and causing all this sadness and trauma when it's two really good people that should be like, feeling like you're on cloud on top of the world, doing all this good stuff, and everybody feels awful.

Marc Oslund [02:52:24] Yeah. And it's so, like. It's so, like, it's seriously the irony. I remember at one point it hit me when I was teaching seminary, like, what in the world? Like, I literally, I told my cause I felt guilty one day when I was Teaching. And I told my students about my friends. I'm like, dude, they didn't. I don't even think they went to college. Like, I don't even think they have a job right now. Like, and how on earth am I being like, oh, my gosh, Like, I didn't read the. The scriptures. I read it for 22 minutes and not 40.

John Dehlin [02:52:50] Like, like, literally, I got home at 9:35. It's 9:30. Yes.

Marc Oslund [02:52:55] Like, how on earth is that a

John Dehlin [02:52:56] healthy thought on a volunteer mission, but this you're paying for. Yes.

Marc Oslund [02:53:00] Like, man, like, how on earth. Like, it's just that perspective was. It's just not there. And it really. Yes, yes, yes. Like, oh, man. Like, how. How can we think that about ourselves? And like, absolutely. This internalized, this misappropriated. Like, there's just no perspective that I'm gonna somehow be going to. Like, God was stricter with somebody who was Mormon and not reading scripture than he was with somebody who never heard about Mormonism. And I'm like, that is backwards, man. Like, why on earth would God hold me to a higher standard? Doesn't he love all of us equally? And, yes, I'm so glad you pointed out the sick irony of it. It's just so bad, you know?

John Dehlin [02:53:43] So what I want to do, I don't want to rush your story. And so what I want to do is for today's segment, it's going to be something like, you know, giving up major league space, giving up a major league baseball career for Mormonism or whatever. But I don't. I want. Next episode, we'll have you come back and I want you to talk about, like, seminary institute and that. And then maybe a third thing will be, like, faith crisis stuff.

Marc Oslund [02:54:09] Love it.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] But I want. But let's definitely get in Rachel's temple experience and everything up. And the dissolution of your baseball career.

Marc Oslund [02:54:17] Cool.

John Dehlin [02:54:18] Right? We'll start next time with your. Your seminar.

Marc Oslund [02:54:22] Perfect.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] So take us to the end.

Marc Oslund [02:54:23] Yeah. So Rachel's experience in the temple is just like. It was exactly what I felt, except for she was.

John Dehlin [02:54:29] Did you warn her? Were you like, hey, this is. I didn't love this.

Marc Oslund [02:54:32] Or were you afraid to? It was so hard.

John Dehlin [02:54:34] Supposed to ever talk bad about or you're not supposed to talk about it at all outside the temple, so you can't warn her necessarily. Or if you do, you'll feel bad and dirty.

Marc Oslund [02:54:43] Yep. And I was kind of trying to hope, like, I was thinking if maybe

John Dehlin [02:54:45] she'll have a good experience.

Marc Oslund [02:54:46] Exactly. If I could be positive with her, like, maybe she'll have a good experience and just really front loaded with. It's really good, like some weird things, but we're going to be okay. I had it. It was kind of weird, you know what I'm saying? Like, really trying to soften it in advance and like her mom and dad talked to her about it and what would happen. So they were much more open than I had. I didn't have anyone, you know, and I had to do it myself. And I think that prepped her. I think she was probably even more prepared than I was. And we're in the LA temple and it's huge. It's like on a Saturday. I did tell her, I was like, don't go on a day. There's a lot of people go on like a Thursday afternoon in LA when there's like two people in this giant freaking temple. But she wanted to go on a Saturday because she wanted family to come. And I'm like, I wouldn't invite a lot of family if I were you. And she's like, but it's my family. I'm like, okay, you know, like. Cause I like, there's no way out, you know, like. And everyone's gonna come up to you and be like, it's so good, right? And hug you and you just like get away, you know.

John Dehlin [02:55:38] What did I just do?

Marc Oslund [02:55:39] Exactly. And so like in the LA temple, the only day it's ever busy, which is the irony of them building more temples, is just so thick. Because the only day the LA temple is ever busy is Saturday morning. And so we go then, and there's a ton of people and Rachel's doing. I'm kind of watching her because, you know, she's on the other side. Cause of. For some reason we have to be separated. And I'm just kind of watching this like, like sink in for her and I'm just like, she's not liking it. We get to the celestial room and you know, her family comes up and gives her hugs. And I could. I know her well enough to know this isn't. She's not happy. You know, she's smiling, but she's not. She's usually very effusive, very kind, very outgoing, bubbly, even more than me. Like, I'm bubbly right now because I'm talking about deep things. Rachel is just a joyful person all the time. And. And I saw that and I'm like, oh, crap. But she didn't cry. She was all good. We go to the car, she has her garments on Everything's done. And she just starts sobbing. Like, among the hardest I've ever seen her cry. And I am just like, what is happening? And so I'm comforting her. I'm like, what's going on? She's not talking. And she, like. I mean, it's like, I don't even know how it felt. Like an eternity that she's crying. She's like, I hate these garments. I don't want to wear them. I hate them. I feel. And she's just like. She can't even get, like, her full sentence out. She's just like, I hate that. I hate this. I hate what I'm wearing.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] She didn't love the temple.

Marc Oslund [02:57:10] No, no. And she, like. And. And I don't know what it was. I think I especially. I think for females, the garment sucks. Like, the way that it's cut, the way that it feels. It's not flattering. It's so, like. Like, it makes you feel so unattractive. And I think she was feeling all of those things, and it's hot, like, all of that. And I think she's just feeling like, oh, crap, I'm in this. I'm in this for good. I can't get out either. And I'm thinking, john, this is where I was. And this is what I hate so much about what Mormonism does. I want to comfort at first, but then I'm like, rachel, this is God's house. This is God's way.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You become the enforcer.

Marc Oslund [02:57:44] Yep. And I'm.

John Dehlin [02:57:45] Even if you feel the same way, even if you felt the exact same awful things, you become the enforcer.

Marc Oslund [02:57:51] Yep. And that makes me feel, like, disgusted, because I'm hearing what she's saying, and I totally agree with what she's saying. And I'm telling her she shouldn't feel that or that we should justify it or rationalize it, and that just, like, I hate that that was a thing that ever happened, and it happened multiple times and all of those things. And so I'm really sad about that. And that obviously put a strain on, like, crap. Like, this girl's not reading the Book of Mormon and she's struggling with the temple. And. But then the irony of I'm not even thinking about how much I hate the temple, I'm like, but she's not gonna go. I hate it, but I'll go. And so I'm just thinking, oh, my gosh. Like, is this our marriage? And I know from her perspective, she's thinking, oh, crap, look at this Guy that I'm marrying, he's a religious zealot, and we are gonna have a terrible marriage. And so right off the bat, this strain from both sides, it's just. And it was not a great way

John Dehlin [02:58:40] to start a no marriage.

Marc Oslund [02:58:42] No, not at all. And mercifully, my experience where I realized that Rachel's love, no matter what she does, won over. And my love for her, like, she's so good that it's really hard for me to. How could I. How could I continue to believe this about her, that she wasn't doing good or she wasn't. Like, she is good.

John Dehlin [02:59:02] She.

Marc Oslund [02:59:02] She's always been good. Everybody that knows her knows this about Rachel. Everybody that knows both of us loves Rachel. My students, when they met Rachel, loved Rachel more than me. Like, everybody loves her. And so for me to be the one person being like, no, I don't think you're doing good enough. I refuse to be that person. At some point, it took a while, and I know Rachel blessed her for just waiting and being as patient as she was. I feel sad and sorry for the trauma that I caused her that I didn't help with. You know, I didn't want to be that person. I was just perpetuating, I think the harm that was perpetuated on me. Right now we see how systems do it. Right now we see how my mission president perpetuated harm because he had a mission president like that, and where did he get it from? From? So we see exactly how it happens. And it's. It's tragic. And we. We don't have the freedom to break out of that cycle. We. We think we do. We think we have the mental freedom to be like, oh, yeah, we're good. We're not good. We're. We're. We're not. We're not free to do that. It's the plausible deniability. There is no real way to break out of it without being labeled and branded and all of those things. You. You have to be this. And it's. It's just tragic for what it does. I. It destroys and harms and. And mercifully, my mom and dad loved me so much. They endure it. My sister loves me so much. My brother Rachel, they loved me enough to continue to put up with the person that I had become, their religious zealot. Just the letter of the law. Just intense, judgmental, Judgmental, insufferable.

John Dehlin [03:00:23] Yep. That wasn't your personality in high school, right?

Marc Oslund [03:00:26] Dude, I was the most laid back, like, other than feeling, like, not good enough Like, I was so laid back, and that's what my mom said.

John Dehlin [03:00:31] Having fun?

Marc Oslund [03:00:32] Yeah, dude. I love laughed all the time. I did stupid stuff. Like, I mean, we did. Like, we would just go egg things. I mean, we were exactly who you would hope a high school boy to be. Like, you know, you think of just boys getting dirty and rolling around and doing all that stuff when they're little kids, like, that's. I had the freedom and the privilege because of my family taking care of me to just be the most carefree, taken care of youth in the history of the world, it feels like. And Mormonism changed who I was because. And I just. I hate it. And my mom predicted it, and I. I hate that I was wrong. I hate that I didn't listen. I hate that I didn't see it, but I absolutely became a different human. And I'm still overcoming that.

John Dehlin [03:01:18] Yeah.

Marriage, Deception, and Emotional Intimacy

Marc Oslund [03:01:18] You know, let me ask.

John Dehlin [03:01:20] Let me ask really quickly. So in the spirit of informed consent, and I had a really cool listener reach out to me during one of my interviews with Chelsea Nick Homer. I asked about sexuality stuff, and they're like, you need to be more careful about asking people about sexuality and make sure you get their informed consent. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna invite you to say no or not answer anything that I say for sure. But I do want to ask a question that, again, I only want you to answer if you want to. Sure. And that's this. You had been sexually active, and I have no idea. And I'm not even asking you to disclose Rachel's past. But what I do know is that if. If in. In Mormonism, if one has been sexually active and one hasn't been, that can be a huge thing.

Marc Oslund [03:02:05] Huge.

John Dehlin [03:02:06] Not just because, you know, you may have had experience, but they hadn't, but they can also be resentful that you. They waited, but you didn't. And there's just the whole worthiness thing. Do you disclose or not? Do you hide it? And I want to just say I'll pass on that if you want to, or if there's any part of that you want to discuss, only talk about. And there's also the wedding night of, like, you know, for some, it's wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And then it's your first time. But then for others, it may not be your first time for sure. Is there anything that you want that is relevant to your story that you want to share about any of that?

Marc Oslund [03:02:39] Yeah, definitely. I'm glad you asked. And yes, for all the listeners, yes, I accept a consent. Absolutely. Thank you for the disclaimer. I'm glad to share some of this is Rachel's story. Exactly. Yeah. And for sure. So. So I. And I. Yeah, she. It'll come up later because it's a part of seminary, but the truth is that she knew who and what cause she had been to the same parties. She knew the rumors. That's so the pros of meeting somebody who is a part of your high school.

John Dehlin [03:03:06] She knew.

Marc Oslund [03:03:07] Exactly. And that's also the con. She knew everything. So when she asked, I'm like, no.

John Dehlin [03:03:11] No what?

Marc Oslund [03:03:12] No, I didn't do anything.

John Dehlin [03:03:13] Oh, you.

Marc Oslund [03:03:14] Oh, I denied.

John Dehlin [03:03:15] You lied.

Marc Oslund [03:03:15] Oh, I for sure lied.

John Dehlin [03:03:16] So super righteous, self righteous, insufferable returned missionary who's like scrupulously trying to be righteous, flat out lies to his fiance.

Marc Oslund [03:03:27] Yeah. According to Randy Bot, I wasn't lying because I was a new creature. Right. So do you see what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [03:03:32] Right?

Marc Oslund [03:03:32] Like, you see what I mean? So I clung to it. I'm like, no, I'm new. It wasn't me.

John Dehlin [03:03:36] You were a virgin. You had been made a virgin in Christ Jesus through righteousness.

Marc Oslund [03:03:43] Correct. And so, no, I didn't do it. Old Mark did, but I didn't tell her that either. So I was like. And she's just like looking at me like. Like she. She didn't say it this way, but eventually we talked about it and she was like, mark, I was at the party. I watched you with this person. Like, how could you look at me and say no? And I'm like. And that's what I did. I'm like, and. And I. There was two things.

John Dehlin [03:04:06] Learned to lie. Sometimes lie.

Marc Oslund [03:04:08] Yep. Lie for. Maybe this wasn't lying for the Lord, but, you know, kind of a little

John Dehlin [03:04:12] bit lying for the system for sure.

Marc Oslund [03:04:14] To. To continue it. And I. Yeah, it eventually comes out because I'll get to it with therapy after I've been harmed by sedan. But it's important, though.

John Dehlin [03:04:23] But at the moment, just to what happened at the moment.

Marc Oslund [03:04:25] Yeah, in the moment, like, she. She asked. And I was like, no, I never did. And she literally looked at me like I was just like, nuts. And I got very defensive because it's shame. Now looking back, I'm like, I don't think it's a bad thing, but at the time, I did. And so the internalized shame made the ego put up a ton of walls. And I'm like, nope, you're not getting in. I'm not letting you in here. And obviously she is thinking Well, I can't be close to you. How can I be close to you? Because I literally know you're lying. But she didn't call me out word for word on that. And so.

John Dehlin [03:04:58] Not a great way. If emotional intimacy is the key to a healthy, happy marriage. And I believe it is not a great way to start a marriage. Lying to your wife and feeling like you have to hide who you have been and really are, and pressuring them because you're looking down on them because they're not living up to you. Not a great way to start a love affair.

Marc Oslund [03:05:19] Nope, it's not. And it's so real. And again, for Rachel to be able to deal with it and all, like, man, she tells me a lot because I'm very passionate. I can get very heated. And she's like, if only you knew what it was like to live with you. I'm like, well, I do have to live with myself. And that's a struggle. But she has been. It's different when it's. She doesn't see all the internal workings. And so she puts up with the law. And I. That was it right off the bat. Starting that way with the scrupulosity, with the patriarchy. Even if she didn't have the name for that. I didn't have a name for it at the time. And definitely with just the lying. I mean, that's what it was. And then, yeah, like, I have expectations from my experience of what. What it's like to have sex and what that's like. And she's never had it, so I'm understanding. And I've always been very kind. I really. And maybe she. I hope she would agree. I think I've always been about consent. I've never, ever, ever wanted to pressure her. But she, you know, has the good girl syndrome. Right. It's still a thing, and it's still hard. And it definitely was way bigger when we first got married. Right. Right off the bat in the honeymoon, it just was. How can you flip a switch?

John Dehlin [03:06:25] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [03:06:25] How can you flip a switch from. This is literally the sync to murder, which she got way longer than I did. Right. For her whole life. And in Rexburg, which is like. I mean, Provo. BYU Provo on steroids. Right. And then. And then she also has this, like, this message that we get sealed. And the sealer says, like, I now command you to multiply and replenish. So it's not just. It's not just, oh, it's okay now. It's. It was the worst thing you could have done to. This is now what you have to do. And that distance for her, I know, was difficult, and in a lot of ways, we're still working through it. It's just so hard to overcome, you

John Dehlin [03:06:59] know, it's just not a great way to start.

Marc Oslund [03:07:00] Absolutely. And then. And I know. I think we'll talk more about this, but definitely, like, when I finally was clear with her, I think for her it was like, not just the betrayal that I lied, but also, like, I think she ended up saying. I know she ended up saying, she's like, what if you had an std? Like, I knew you were sexually active. What if you did and you didn't tell me? And she continued to put up with it, so bless her. But, yeah, it's just tragic, you know?

John Dehlin [03:07:25] So to end, there's the meeting with Bednar and a Catholic teammate, and then I just want to hear what happened to the end the of. I mean, this episode is going to be about the giving up your baseball career. So how did that all end?

Marc Oslund [03:07:38] Yeah, good question. So I end up my sophomore year. I do really well. I turn down the draft my junior year. I get a new set of coaches because we just weren't performing right. So we get a new set, and they take over and they see that my velocity is at 84 miles an hour. Yeah. Way low. Way low. So it should be. It should be no less than 88. Right.

John Dehlin [03:07:56] It's only four miles an hour, though.

Marc Oslund [03:07:58] It makes a huge difference in terms of the reaction time. And like, even from 88 to 92, and then you have guys in the major leagues are throwing 95 plus. And so, like, I grew up with Nolan Ryan. 100 miles an hour.

John Dehlin [03:08:10] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [03:08:10] And so the reaction time just. It changes things so much. And so, like, when I played against University of San Diego and Chris Bryant, who's one of the best players in baseball and rookie of the year, National League MVP, and I'm throwing 84 miles an hour. I mean, he absolutely obliterated. He was the only player that was just straight up better than me. And I was at my worst. But, like, I just wasn't getting it done. So the coaches had a conversation, so.

John Dehlin [03:08:34] So he got a home run off.

Marc Oslund [03:08:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:36] Not many people can say, you know, that. That they played against major league players. They got home runs off for sure. That's still cool.

Marc Oslund [03:08:42] It makes me feel a lot better, I'll tell you. So, like, when he. When he gets home runs off, Clayton Kershaw, who's like my favorite player for the Dodgers, A Hall of Famer, and Clayton Kershaw gives up a bomb to Chris Bryant. I'm like, hey, me too, man. You know, I'm not as bad as you think, you know? So, like, it totally is my justification of I'm not that bad. So, yeah, I do take pride when he does well. And Trevor Bauer, who's another one who just overpowered me when I was hitting, when he does well, I'm just super pumped. So it justifies Validating.

John Dehlin [03:09:05] Exactly.

Marc Oslund [03:09:06] Validating. Exactly. Yeah. So he. So, yeah, I tell my coaches, they ask, what's up? And I'm like, my arm has hurt for, like, two years. Like, maybe you should get it looked at. And so I go get an mri. It reveals a tear, and that's just, like, the worst. I mean, there's a surgery that baseball players often get called Tommy John. It was named after the person who's named Tommy John who got the surgery to allow him to keep pitching. There's this little ligament in your elbow called the ulnar collateral ligament. And basically, the amount of pressure that is put on that ligament while you're throwing is. I think they said it's like the equivalent to, like, raising your body weight like, 50 times or something. Like, it's just so much on this little tiny thing. And so I go get this mri. It shows that it has a tear. We go back to LA at, like, the top. The people that invented Tommy John surgery at Curland Jobe, the Angels team doctor, he is the best in the world at this surgery. And he says, I don't know. I don't see enough of a tear. Maybe we shouldn't do it. And I'm like. But I know it hurts. Something's wrong. And I'll just. I'll. I'll grin and bear it, right?

John Dehlin [03:10:10] But.

Marc Oslund [03:10:10] But I know it's not right. He ends up dying of cancer, which is tragic. Um, but I have to go see another doctor who's the University of Southern California team doctor. And he sees it, and he's like, look, you have two options. You can either do this thing called PRP that allows you to get some fluid injected into your elbow and hopefully it heals it, or you can get surgery. And I'm like, I just don't think it's gonna work. I think. I think I need to get surgery. So they opened me up in la and they find out that it. The mri, the way that it located it, it was actually torn almost all the way through. It had, like, just a millimeter left. And, like, at any pitch it could have just gone. So I'm glad I did it. They moved my. My funny bone nerve from down in that little well up to my forearm. So, like, when I hit my elbow now it actually hurts worse because it doesn't send the tingle and, like, a nice scar. And anyway, I started rehabbing, and with baseball and I. I tried to get back into it, they had to take a piece out of long story.

John Dehlin [03:11:07] It's like, who pays for the surgery?

Marc Oslund [03:11:09] So my BYU was going to pay for the one in Utah, but since I went to a different person, they paid for whatever my dad's insurance wouldn't cover.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] Okay.

Marc Oslund [03:11:17] So ours was extra expensive. Eventually, they didn't pay the bill. And when I tried to take out a mortgage, I had a credit, like, hit on my thing because BYU didn't pay my bill. And I was so pissed because we had to pay, like, an extra, like, $30,000. They forgot.

John Dehlin [03:11:31] So it's like, did they end up paying it?

Marc Oslund [03:11:32] They did.

John Dehlin [03:11:32] Okay.

Marc Oslund [03:11:33] But, I mean, I had the credit hit. So, like, when we bought a house, I think it was like $10,000 that we ended up losing because of it. I'm like, dang it, byu. But anyway, I started rehabbing. They take a piece out of my hamstring because they have to wrap it around. It's just this crazy procedure. You can look it up. It's really fascinating. And as I'm rehabbing my first time back on the mound, so it takes a while. It's a long process. If I were to be a first baseman, typically about six months, months for a pitcher. It's shortening now, but it's about a year to get back to full speed where you can pitch again. And the first day back on the mound, it was like tryouts. And we had this. This kid try out, and his last pitch, he threw in, his arm literally snapped. Like, it snapped in half. Like I've never seen. My stomach just sunk. And I thought, I'm not getting on that mound. Like, I'm not ready for that. So my rehab was delayed because mental fear of getting hurt. Eventually, I started rehabbing. As I pitched on the mound, I felt another thing. It felt in that elbow, but not in the same spot. So I went back to the doctor, and they're like, they did an ultrasound, not an mri, but they saw a little tear in a different, like, tendon or ligament or something in there. And so I did this whole PRP treatment. It was miserable. And at that time, I was in a bishopric. Young, married bishopric. So I wasn't a high priest, but I was, like, the first counselor in the bishopric. And I'm thinking, baseball is falling apart. I'm not probably ever going to play again. If I will, I'm never going to be the same. What on earth am I going to do? And I talked to a couple people, and somebody said, you know, you can get paid to teach seminary. I'm like, no, you can't. Seminary teachers, that's a calling. Like, no, you can get paid. I'm like, really? You know, and so that was, in my mind, talked to another person in our ward. Our elders quorum president actually was a seminary teacher or was a student teacher. And I remember sitting on, like, the stand one day and being like, God, what do I do? I trusted that you would take me through this. And all that's happening is my life is falling apart in terms of baseball. Right. Everything else was pretty decent. Help me. And I had the thought, like, go talk to the seminary people. And a couple days later, I go on campus and meet with the seminary people, and we can leave that for next time and pick up. Up where? How that picks up. But I. I was ready to move forward.

From Baseball to Seminary Teaching

John Dehlin [03:13:49] Was it hard to give that up?

Marc Oslund [03:13:51] Oh, tragic, tragic. I mean, I. I still ended up technically playing. I was on the team. I redshirted that year. I was on the team my senior year, but I was also teaching seminary at the time. And I just. My coach knew, and I walked in one day and I was like, coach, this is what's going on. I've been teaching seminary for the last however long, and. And I just. I think I have to quit. And I was sobbing. I lost football. Now I'm losing baseball. And my coach in tears is like, mark, we love you so much. They made it. They made me a captain on the team. Even though I never played for this coach. This coach got me the job that I currently have after I quit seminary. This coach was so good to me. Took me on trips when I wasn't playing, like. And he said, we love you here. We're going to honor your scholarship. You'll graduate this year. We're going to keep your scholarship and go do seminary. Whenever doors close, I found in my life, that's what he said. Whenever doors close, other ones open. I want you to go run through this door and be the best you can be. And, like, I'm just bawling. And I go to a BYU devotionals on a Tuesday, and Gary Stevenson speaking apostle, you know, I sit up at the top. I'm just wailing like, as not wailing because I'm not loud, but I'm just sobbing, you know, and he gives a talk on, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not to your own understanding. And that was, like, my confirmation that I was doing the right thing and that things would work out great for me in seminary. And fast forward to nope.

John Dehlin [03:15:13] And I have to ask, like, if you had gone to the majors, would your elbow still have probably unraveled?

Marc Oslund [03:15:19] It's a good question. I mean, I've thought about that. So I definitely think I had some pain from high school. But here's what would have been different. I. I threw like a quarterback. Like, I pitched. I pitched like a quarterback. And the way that my arm was short instead of being, like, nice and long, and it's supposed to be very smooth, I was very, like. They called it herky jerky, and I'm just kind of moving and fidget. And they would have tweaked all of my mechanics to make them as streamlined as possible. And it's likely it would have alleviated a lot of it. I do think there's still some. And to be honest, like, a large percentage of major league baseball players get Tommy John, but being in a system, they would have tweaked my mechanics, made it better, and I would have had all the resources. BYU had great ones, but that would have been my sole focus. Right. Is just getting this thing right. So I do believe it probably would have happened. Rachel says that all the time, like, Mark, you probably wouldn't have been a pro baseball player, but I refuse to believe that. I'm like, no, I would have been a Hall of Famer, you know, not a Hall of Famer. I. I wasn't ever that good, but I definitely think I could have been.

John Dehlin [03:16:13] Yeah. Made a couple million.

Marc Oslund [03:16:15] Exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:16:16] And lived the dream for a little bit.

Marc Oslund [03:16:17] Exactly. Yep. For sure.

John Dehlin [03:16:20] Do we save the bed in our story for later, or does it.

Marc Oslund [03:16:22] Yeah, I mean. And we don't even have to get there. But here's. But the main. The main point is it was just another experience with Bednar. I'll tell it. It's fun. My coach, Bednar, comes to our baseball team and comes to our locker room. Same setup as before. Questions about revelation. Super intense. And we're going through all of this, and it's just super orthodox. I don't know how else to describe Bednar. You know, it's just very intense. And the thought of him being, you know, future prophet is extremely worrisome. And anyway, very intense. And we're doing a question and answer session and everyone's like on pins and needles and we're just feeling of kind, I mean, loved, but also anxious about like getting called out. And he was very firm about, I don't remember all the questions that were asked. At the very end, one of my Catholic teammates, who I just loved, he raised his hand and was going to ask a question. And right when he did that, Elder Ben, I was like, I'm really sorry, I have to leave. Like, let me bear my testimony. And my teammate kind of put his head down and was like, oh. Another one of our teammates saw that, told our coach, and our coach contacted Elder Bednar and said, hey, I have a non member teammate who would like to have a question, ask a question. He says, cool, can he be up in Salt Lake to meet with me on Thursday or whatever. And it just so happens that I was walking down from the big stairs at BYU by the Joseph Smith building and I was standing next to this friend and my coach had just pulled into the only available spot for a parking for the athletic people and popped out and. And I'm right there. And he says, hey, can you be tells one of my teammate, what are you doing on Thursday? Uh, nothing, coach, just practice. Nope, you're not going to practice. And he's like, what? He's like, you're gonna go meet with Elder Bednar. He's like, what'd I do? You know, like, did I do something wrong? Which I thought is very telling, you know, but he's like, coach, I don't have a car. I was like, I have a car, you know, like, I want to go meet in the office of an apostle. And then I just.

Meeting Elder Bednar and Episode Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [03:18:13] With a prospective convert.

Marc Oslund [03:18:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:18:15] Catholic.

Marc Oslund [03:18:15] Yes. And so we get there and I bring Rachel uninvited. And so I didn't tell Rachel she was uninvited. But the secretary lets us in and says, elder Bednar, you have three guests. And Rachel's like, you didn't tell Bednar were you coming? I'm like, I thought he'd want to see you, you know. And it was interesting how it felt different. The reason I added it in here is because it felt different. For me, the approach was much warmer from the previous two times I'd been with Elder Bednar. And then there will be a third time that we meet with Elder Bednar. It's interesting that I've had him so many times, you know, but the approach was much warmer and it was much more inviting and it was much more understanding and empathetic and the reason I say that is because I felt like it was what was happening to me when I was getting my missionary lessons, where I'm like, wait, but you didn't talk to me that way in North Carolina. And I'm. It was a cruel experience because how often do you get to meet with an apostle in their office? But I'm also like, wait, that. That doesn't seem real. Like, it felt. It felt way more open and genuine. He gives him a card and just the. I think for me, it was also kind of presumptuous. Like, the card, it said, like, david Bednar, apostle of Jesus Christ. Like, that's all it said. I'm like.

John Dehlin [03:19:33] Like.

Marc Oslund [03:19:34] Like, that's kind of bold. Like, it. At the time, I was, like, smitten and starstruck.

John Dehlin [03:19:38] Right.

Marc Oslund [03:19:38] But looking back, and the reason I added it is because I'm like, that did not. It does not mesh with all the other things we know. And it doesn't mesh with the Bednar who makes people stand when he walks in. And. And it doesn't mesh with the Bednar. He says there's no gay Latter Day Saints. It didn't feel that way. It felt very, like, minus what he

John Dehlin [03:19:54] had said on your mission.

Marc Oslund [03:19:55] Yeah. So I'm.

John Dehlin [03:19:56] He.

Marc Oslund [03:19:57] He was just like. When we were in. In. In the cultural hall, and he was like, like, oh, right, yeah, you lost the spirit. That's why you're not baptizing.

John Dehlin [03:20:03] Oh, yeah.

Marc Oslund [03:20:04] And I'm like, geez, like that. It. It just felt very different. It felt very salesy. But I was obviously happy, right? Because this is a freaking apostle.

John Dehlin [03:20:14] And.

Marc Oslund [03:20:14] And I asked my teammate if he was com. Converted. And this was. This was huge for me later with seminary, and I was like, are you gonna read the book more? He's like, nah, probably not. And I'm like, wait. But an apostle sat down with love compared to maybe other things that have been used. Sat down, looked you in the eyes, bore his perfect witness of Jesus Christ and the truthfulness of the church, and you weren't swayed at all. And I thought, like, maybe the power of, like. I know, right? I used to use that all the time. I used to think if I said, I know powerfully enough, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it would just, like, magically compel somebody to be like, oh, I believe. And so listening to Elder Bednar do that and having my teammate be not swayed at all, he's like, I'm still Catholic. Like, it was like, how could this be like. And I had just taught Preach My Gospel like Elder Benner. It was like he was reciting the lessons as perfectly as you would ever hope.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] Yeah.

Marc Oslund [03:21:13] And nothing. And so these are just little seeds that are planted that I'm not owning until I start kind of evaluating saying, what the heck. Like, things start lining up real quick.

John Dehlin [03:21:22] Go on your shelf.

Marc Oslund [03:21:24] Shelf. Exactly. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:21:25] Thanks for that story.

Marc Oslund [03:21:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:27] All right, listeners, so we're going to stop this episode, and we're going to have him back. So there's, like, way more ahead of us than is behind us, because we're going to talk about how Mark goes from being convert to potential professional athlete to, you know, a seminary teacher and what that was like. But then we're going to talk about what it's like to be a seminary teacher as the church is confronting the Internet age with me and Kate Kelly and CES Letter and the gospel topics essays and how they're, you know, the church is teaching their seminary institute teachers to deal with the problems. And then we're going to talk about how a CES teacher, Mark, ends up questioning his faith and dealing with that, knowing that if he loses his job, he can do what can he do? And then, you know, what does he do? What does the seminary teacher do when they lose their faith? Faith. And if they end up leaving ces, how do they rebuild a life when they have a young family and a wife who doesn't work? This is like, more cool stuff ahead. This is part one. Stay for parts two and three. I'm sure there's going to be a part two and a part three. But, Mark, this has been awesome, and thank you so much for being willing to tell us your cool story so far.

Marc Oslund [03:22:40] Thanks. And thanks for listening. I came here because I wanted people to know they're not alone, and I'm honored that I can be here. And for anyone listening, I often listen to podcasts all night. Like two Speed or I judge people on it.

John Dehlin [03:22:52] That's so rude.

Marc Oslund [03:22:53] Yeah, I'm like, it helps me.

John Dehlin [03:22:55] Like, I'm slow.

Marc Oslund [03:22:55] No, no, no, no. Because I'm busy. Because I'm busy and my brain works fast. I have adhd, but I. But, like, I thank you for listening and continue. Like, it's. It's humbling that you would think of my story worth any time of. Of yours. So thanks for being here.

John Dehlin [03:23:08] All right. You're awesome, Mark. All right, stay tuned. Come right back. By the time you watch this, the next episode is there. So just go to YouTube or go to your podcast app and just click on the next episode. Episode. And we'll hear part two. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Mark. You're awesome. Thanks.