Introduction and Family Background

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 684

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Tell us just a little bit about yourself, your kind of demographics, if you will.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:14] Okay, so that would be name Margi Delin, married to John de Lynn, have four children, whom I love. What else do you want to know? What else would be helpful?

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Talk a little bit about your family's introduction to the church. Tell it like a story.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:38] Okay. So I grew up in Potomac, Maryland, and my parents joined the church when I was young. I heard that I was the impetus of that. That somehow I was at a church service with a family friend and came home from that church and said to my parents that we needed to find a church.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:01] And so the Washington, D.C. temple was. Was going up at that time. And my grandmother, who was kind of, I don't know, a little bit plugged in to the D.C. area, got tickets. My parents went and filled out the little form in the temple that said, would you like to know more? When they watched the video and two missionaries appeared at their door.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:25] So they joined the church in the Potomac ward. They investigated for over a year, each of them. It was a very collaborative effort between the missionaries and the ward members. A really special situation. And that is the nest in which my brother and I were baptized.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] How do you think it affected just your family overall, the church's influence in your family?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:55] I actually remember that. I actually remember feeling a difference in my mom and dad. The focus, the community, the stability. I really can recall that. And I also remember the temple sealing. We were sealed shortly thereafter after the birth of my sister Catherine. And I remember playing in the playroom there. But even more, I remember when they gathered us around and put my sister. Sorry. In the middle. And I remember feeling like, wow, this is family.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Do you remember any changes or does your mom. Or did your dad. Or does your mom talk about changes that came over anyone after joining the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] So with regard to themselves or with regard to us? Well, I think we started with all those rituals. Sunday church we actually had. I remember having baptisms in our backyard pool. So we had a lot of those ward kind of parties at our house. And I just remember, you know, I have letters of myself prior to joining the church, where I. I clearly was precocious. And I remember swearing and saying Jesus Christ. And I'm like six or seven. I have letters. And so the culture of our family, I feel like, definitely changed. It grounded us, it focused us on family.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Do you remember anyone talking about the ways your dad's personality changed kind of before and after the church at all, or his behavior?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:47] Yeah, yeah. So we were just kind of talking about this a few weeks ago that prior to the church, my dad was extremely work identified and he was always passionate about his job. He was a psychiatrist. He had an office, a separate entrance and office in our home in Maryland. So he worked really long hours. But it made him turn, I feel like, turn to our family more, participate more. I feel like just look to contribute. And it's really what I remember him starting to play with us.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Talk about your memories of him playing with you really quickly.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:33] So I remember him coming up from work, we would go out to the pool. One of my favorite memories is he would take us out to swim at night when we could see the stars. So we would swim and he would turn off the pool light and we would lie on our backs and look at the stars. He was just a very in the moment father. He played the piano a lot, loved to see us dance as he played Scott Joplin or he read us poetry and literature, took us for walks. I remember him always putting on a coat and putting on my coat when he would get home from work to give my mom a break and take us for a little walk around the circle before dinner. And he would put on chapstick on my lips and he would take my hand and we would go for a walk.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] And how much of that. And I know it's impossible to do this for sure. How much of that do you attribute to just his upbringing, his native personality versus the influence of the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:38] Well, I think that's hard to say. I think if you look at his family culturally, I feel like he is different from, let's say, his other siblings or the siblings that had families in that he was very. He just participated a lot in our family. So I feel like I've heard my mom talk about he was a Yale medical school graduate, went to Haverford, that the church kind of gave him a humility that prior to some life experiences and things he hadn't had before. And I don't know how much that is just being kind of young and full of life and passion and how much that had to do with the church. But I definitely feel like it grounded him and it focused him and it gave him a path, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] How about your mom?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:39] And I feel like for my mom, it gave her. My mom's really social.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] How was she raised?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:44] Oh, how was she raised? She was raised in Catholic schools, so she had a lot of experience with nuns growing up. She grew up, you know, in a home that I would say was challenging. She had a loving mom. But I Think they were poor. Her father was fought in Battle of the Bulge in World War II. And so there was a lot of struggle, I think, in their family. My mom was valedictorian in her school, earned a place in a nursing school and went to nursing school and became a nurse. And that's when she met my dad.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] Why do you sense she didn't stay Catholic?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:36] My view, my like remembering, is that at the time the missionaries showed up, neither one of my parents were. Were active in another religion. I think for my mom, there were things she loved about Catholicism. She kept her rosary, she kept some of those things. But I think, you know, she had had some difficult experiences going to Catholic schools. They could be harsh. And I sense it was really the appeal to family, that temple video about families can be together forever. I think it hit them at just the right time with two young children and just sort of starting out in their life together.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Did your mom change at all, do you think, because of the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] I feel like for my mother, it gave her an outlet, an outlet for her energy, an outlet for her rallying people and leading people. She was always stake young women's president or ward young women's president, and always highly social. And in those early years, I think even lonely with young children. And so it gave her a community, and it gave her an outlet that was important.

Motivation for the Mormon Transitions Project

John Dehlin [00:09:00] Why. Why do you want to be involved. Why did you want to be involved in the Mormon Transitions Project? What. What good do you think? Why do you think it's needed, and what good do you think it could do?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:14] I think it's exciting. It's something that you and I have talked about for a long time, just having different ideas. I think it's where we are and where we live. A lot of the clients that we coach or people we see or some of the, I think, challenges that arise come out of transitioning away from religion and all that means, because it affects so many different facets of life, and there really is right now no real support or help or way to kind of look around and say, hey, what worked for you? And I'm having a challenge here with parenting, and where could I go and actually hear other people talk about that? There's just. There is very little resource with regard to that. So. And I'm happy to sort of offer my experience into that platform and hope it helps.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Have you seen any significant. Have you seen any people significantly struggle in their Mormon transition? And if so, just describe that briefly.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:32] Yeah, I think. And including, I mean, you and I, I think there Are it hits so foundationally right in the things that we value in our lives, whether it's identity, whether it's our personal relationships with family, with our children, with extended family, with our dreams and what we want out of life. You know, I just think it's foundational. The need is real.

Mormon Milestones and Commitment to the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Describe the sort of Mormon, typical Mormon milestones that you went through just to kind of give listeners a sense for your, you know, commitment level to the church and your involvement in the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:17] Okay, so Young women Recognition award. Seminary graduate. I attended byu, majored in English, minored in philosophy. I ran for byu, both cross country. Well, it would be cross country indoor track and outdoor track.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] How good was the BYU running team then?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:44] When I was there, it was top 10 in the country every year. So we did better some years than others. And then married in the temple. Four children and served in various callings, mostly young women.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] How long were you active in the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:12:14] So baptized at 8. And then I would say, boy, our transitioning out took some time. We kind of did a. I would say Seattle. So how long is that? 20, I don't know. Decades? Years? It felt like forever, basically from age eight. Eight until when we moved here, which would have been 2004.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] And then we were still attending here until my disciplinary council. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:52] And that was. That's. It's harder because if you're talking all in, then it would.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] I'm just saying. Attending church.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:58] Oh, attending church, yeah. Oh, we were attending when we. Right before excommunication, because we were supporting our children. So how old was that? Would have been. I'm 45 now, so that would have been 43.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Okay, so from age 8 to 43, you were, you know, attending church.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:18] Attending church, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Okay. Describe sort of at your peak orthodoxy, what your beliefs were and what your level of activity was in the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:34] Okay. Belief and then activity.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:36] Okay, so belief. I feel like belief was a bit of a challenge for me from the beginning. Just sort of wrapping my brain around how that all worked.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] How what worked?

Margi Dehlin [00:13:52] Just, I feel like I always struggled with making it real. I'm a story person. And so as long as there, I could kind of look at it as a story or something that was a meta, that I could pull what I wanted. I think it was okay. But, you know, even in high school, I was asked to speak at the seminary graduation.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:20] And in that talk, I guess I shared that I wasn't sure I knew the church was true. I wasn't really sure about my beliefs. And after that talk, my mom pulled Me aside and just kind of said, did you have to share that then? Was that the time? But then she actually also said, tell me about that. And I did. And she, at that point I remember her saying, well, maybe for you your testimony won't be a belief testimony. Maybe for you your testimony will be your life lived in the gospel or in the church, and that will be your testimony. And I remember that sticking with me even through I'll just take it to college.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:08] I came home one summer and took the discussions again, trying to wrap my brain around beliefs at a later age, trying to grapple. And I had a great time taking the discussions with my dad. But the same, I still had the same challenges around making it all real, making it all like historical and factual. And so for me the belief for me has been life lived.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] So for you you had doubts or questions as an adolescent and a young adult talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:15:49] Yeah, I think I especially around concrete, the concrete story and the concrete facts.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] Why did that bug you or why. What was hard about accepting that for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:02] I think it just, to me, I don't know that it was highly rational. I just feel like it didn't resonate. I couldn't make peace with it. I could never make it real for me.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] So you're talking about the atonement Joseph Smith, like which aspects didn't jive with you?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:22] I think all of the belief things that were centered in history or that type of thing versus anything practical like word of wisdom or, you know, this is what it means to be a Mormon identity or anything other than that. I had a difficult time with anything that I could put into my life and use practically. I was very good at that and I did that.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] But were you like worrying about whether Jesus was true, worrying about whether Joseph really was a prophet, worrying about whether the Book of Mormon or it was just more just didn't feel right.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:00] I wasn't at peace with it. But if you will, I just sort of shone my light. I shined my light on my experience and how the structure it gave, the stability it gave. And at that time in my life, that was enough. I felt tremendous identity and comfort through the structure and stability of rules.

Conversion Experience and Gaining a Testimony

John Dehlin [00:17:29] What made you go to the efforts of hearing the missionary discussions as a young adult with your dad? Why did you even go to that trouble? That's kind of a weird thing to do for a lifelong member to ask for the missionary T shirt. I mean, I've never heard of that before.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:49] What was going on? I think there was enough cognitive dissonance Clearly. Listen, when I was at byu, I challenged my religion professors. I was the person that like stayed after or would challenge the engineering professor that was teaching your Doctrine and Covenants class. You know how they would do that? They would have. And I think I lived passionately. I think I really wanted this sort of resonance in my life. And so when it wasn't there, I really did try to grapple on some level to make. To make it all work. I think it was my attempt again to make it all work. Like maybe now it'll be different, maybe this time.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:34] And in truth, taking it, taking those discussions with my dad reinforced story, because my dad actually was very story oriented and very meta as well. And so it sort of reinforced that maybe I'm just a life lived gal. Maybe that's what my testimony will look like.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Were you searching, Were you searching for like a confirmation from the Holy Ghost? Were you searching for a witness? Were you annoyed that you hadn't received one and you were trying to get one?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:11] So I tried that. It's kind of part of the seminary experience. It feels like. Right. You read a lot of the scriptures. Usually there's a challenge at some point. I always, I was quite diligent. I did that. I read and I did pray and I had experiences around prayer at different times in my life. I just didn't have it around testimony or the truthfulness of, you know, the Book of Mormon, for example.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Right. But you wanted it. I wanted it, but it never quite came.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:47] It never came.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Okay, so you focused on the living.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Okay, so if we were to talk about a conversion, do you feel like you ever actually obtained a conversion where you said, yep, I was a believer and I kind of just was converted. Talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:08] So I don't know really how to answer that. I mean, I think everyone's conversion is different and it's real to them. It felt real to me. It may not look like yours, but it meant a lot to me. And for the time in my life, for that time, that testimony was enough. It was enough to guide my life. It was enough to have me sacrifice things that I wanted in my life for it.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] So what would your testimony have been based on? If you would have borne your testimony, what would it have been based on?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:46] What was instead at BYU when they asked me to give talks or I didn't bear my testimony? And that's the thing about track and field. I was always out of town, so I didn't attend. I didn't have those same things, those same structures, because we were out of town, so much traveling. So I bore my testimony rarely. That was true all through my life. And if I did, I bore my testimony on things that resonated with me. So it would be like family or forgiveness. It's like values, right, that I could find. I, in talks, would read poetry instead of scriptures. I'm sure I was annoying or beautiful. That's what it was for me. Song lyrics, you know, whatever. Pointing at truth, pointing at values.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] But you would have said you had a testimony.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:44] No, I don't. Well, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Or a conversion, something.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:48] Yes, I definitely felt a conversion. And I definitely felt that I was part of the church in my own way. I felt fully part of it versus outside. I just had my own, my own version.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] So think about your participation in the church. What were the things that you valued most?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:19] Well, I think for me you can't. I can't tease out family from my involvement with the church because it literally brought me four siblings. So it was my brother and I and then a six year gap and my parents joined the church at the latter part of that, and then four more siblings born two years apart.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:46] So it went from zero population people to six children. So for me it meant family. It meant this culture of family that was warm. And I would say we always lived on the east coast, so I felt like the foundation of our family was actually like psychology versus this very strict scripturally based behavior at home.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:21] But our family culture was quite beautiful, I think, as a result. And those rituals that the church brought were beautiful in our home. The way my mom cooked meals or kind of did the things around the big events, baptism or was really, really special. And then I think in those early years, the identity piece was something that I really loved. I mean, I remember as a child, after we joined the church, my brother and I would like stomp around the house singing this soundtrack. And I don't even know who it is now, but it was like, I'm a Mormon. Yes, I am. You know, and it really, it gave us identity in a really beautiful way.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] What about with your family, your husband and kids? What did it give you? What did you value about it for that, for that part of your life?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:21] So for that part of my life, I think at that point I was still really valuing the stability and structure that it, that it brought me in those early, probably in the early child, early mothering years, I would say. I think I really valued hard work in my life. And boy, I feel like that's inherent to sort of the culture So I really valued that. I valued opportunities to so serve in young women's. I liked the idea of going back to a time of life that was kind of challenging and difficult for me and being someone for young women that I would have really appreciated just speaking empowering messages to them and worthiness messages to them. I think it offered me some good stimulation and ways to give back in those sort of young, isolating, you know, mothering years.

What the Church Provided: Meaning, Morality, and Community

John Dehlin [00:25:31] So I have this theory that the way that we're made as humans, the way that we've evolved, leaves several holes in our kind of lives that religion seeks to fill and often fills in a very successful way. So you've talked a little bit about some of these, but just talk about the different holes that religion filled for you and I'll list them and then you talk about each one. Okay, so with identity, did religion fill an identity hole for you? If so, talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:07] Yeah, for sure. I think it provided this formula, honestly, with regard to my identity as a female in the church. Oh, look, this is your role, this is what you will do. And there was a time when I really liked that. I really appreciated it. And so I think that was important.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] How about morality? So whatever that means to you, to what extent did the church shape your morality? Talk about specific examples.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:48] So I lived the morality piece to a T. I think, in all honesty, it put a good deal of fear in me though, so I might have been avoidant in that realm. However, I absolutely lived it. And I think in a way I. It gave me an identity of specialness and I attributed that to sort of these extra rules I followed kind of in my life. And I do think it was probably a simplifier overall, but it also, it was a mixed bag. I think it also was a complicator when it came to relationships because I was incredibly fearful.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] What were the rules you followed, the morality rules you followed that were important?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:40] Just so like dating when you're 16. I remember a boy came and asked me to play tennis and it was like a week before my 16th birthday and my dad was like, nope, nope, see ya, bye. Nope. You know, all those things. I didn't get serious with boys.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Meaning sexual.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah, but even intimacy wise, like, even like sharing myself, I kind of feel like that fear kind of closed me up, kind of made me, oh, I don't know, locked up, not sharing, not really in a natural way that you would get to know someone. I think I was very protective of myself.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] What about alcohol and drugs?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:26] Yeah. So I very much obey that. And I would use that, see? And then the DNC where it says you should, you know, what is it? Run and never wait, Walk and never whatever. Run and not be weary. Oh, I used that scripture to no end because I was running in high school and really competitive. It was really my life. And I would use that as a mental edge in my races. Like, you know, well, my body doesn't have the toxin of that or sort of the work of alcohol. Getting alcohol out of your system or drugs out of your system. I'm clean. I am clean and I am eating well and I am strong. And here I am showing up at the line and I kind of used it as sort of a bit of a mental edge.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] So to this day, have you tried drugs or alcohol? No. Did morality mean anything to you other than sex, drugs and alcohol? Was there anything else that, you know, morality meant to you as a Mormon?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:35] I think so. I think the. Just list some of the things for my morality. Yeah, I think I made a conscious effort to obey my parents. I feel like I had a strong sense of wanting to please them. So I took that really seriously. I also was. When a lot of my friends were doing kind of age appropriate gatherings or socializing, I babysat a lot for. I was a huge help to my mother. So I felt a huge sense of responsibility to sort of be helpful in the home, to be honest, to be excellent. Let's just talk about the perfectionism piece. Like, everything I did, I wanted to do well. I wanted to completely own it. And so I lived that way. The morality piece was in everything I did, I wanted to be excellent. That perfection, it was a hustle I was in.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] To what extent did the church help you deal with the fear of death or other people dying?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:54] So. Growing up, I feel like I was pretty untouched by close deaths, people really close to me. And I think what it did was again, it provided this structure that I felt comforted by, even though I didn't wholly buy into it. But it provided something right. And I kind of grew out of that as I got older and I kind of moved into mystery and curiosity and started reading a ton of books and things. But for that time, I remember, you know, no one ever close to me died. So I was never really face to face with some of the, I don't know, issues that way. But for me, it offered a psychological buffer to death.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] You certainly weren't worrying about death, I'm guessing.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:53] No, not as a teen.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] What about meaning and purpose? Did it give your life meaning and purpose? The church if so, how?

Margi Dehlin [00:32:01] Yeah, so again, I think through the structure model and through sort of the teaching of roles. Now, my mom, sort of. I think growing up with a mother that was pretty empowered. My mom was a nurse. She worked on rape crisis councils, worked in our schools. So I could see an adaptation there that she did. And so I think I saw her and I saw that she made choices that I. I didn't always hear about in my young women's lessons. But I do feel like the roles thing informed what I expected of myself and even a little bit of what I wanted for myself.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] How about community?

Margi Dehlin [00:32:53] So community, and are we still talking about kind of growing up years early on, or is it all the way through? Okay, so

John Dehlin [00:33:03] there's an argument that humans need community, that we're tribal animals, that we evolved that way, and community is one of the most important things for physical health, for mental health. So to what extent did the church provide you with community?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:17] I think it did a good job with community. I don't feel like I had tremendous. I'm kind of introverted. I don't know that community is like a huge. A huge part of my language in, like, a very structured, organized way. But I did value, for example, traditions that came out of community. So, like, in our home, around General Conference, what we did, those sort of rituals, I did have, particularly in Seattle, some good friends. And I did appreciate the support because, of course, we're raised to think that we can't do it on our own. And so feeling like I needed help, sort of pouring all this morality and goodness into my children was something that I valued.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] How about spirituality? Did the church meet any of your needs spiritually? And if so, how?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:24] There were some times that I would say when I would teach young women's lessons. So I. I'd never really taught by manual. I would use the subject, but then I would kind of go about my own way of creating a lesson. I do feel like in some of those lessons, they were good for me, too. They were good for me to kind of piece my brain around what I really felt in a way that I could convey an empowering, honest, pragmatic perspective to young women. But I have always been someone that pulls. I read a lot. I really value that in my life, and so I have always supplemented.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] So. So when people think about spirituality, they think about praying to Heavenly Father, having a relationship with Heavenly Father, about reading the scriptures, about getting inspired, going to church and hearing the music and feeling uplifted. Was any of that part of your experience? What was your Spiritual life, like, as a Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:32] So these are like, personal behaviors, right? So I didn't really. I don't feel like feelings and feelings. I didn't read scriptures regularly. I didn't find a lot of meaning for me personally. So I just gravitated where there was meaning. I feel like prayer. I did some prayer kind of off and on. We definitely did family blessings on food or, you know, the father's blessings. The temple was always an issue for me, so that wouldn't be one. And I feel like it was sort of a mixed bag, some of those personal things. I think for me, it was more a way to serve, a way to give. And I think a lot of the spirituality things, I sort of. I found my own way.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] How? What were your ways of feeling spirituality?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:47] I've always run in nature, so, like, moving my body outside, that's something I've always done. And I always feel uplifted. I feel like I'm alive. I'm celebrating the fact that I'm this breathing, I don't know, sentient being in the middle of all this aliveness. I really have always loved that. I've loved taking walks. I've loved music. Music has been a huge part of that.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] I feel like hymns are not church music.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:20] I enjoyed singing hymns, but it wasn't like I found things that touched me more on my own, things that reached me, you know, more deeply on my own. And I felt just fine about supplementing those and would bring them into my lessons, actually, when I felt like I found better things. 13th article of faith, baby. What do you mean by that? You know, movies, there's truth everywhere, there's goodness everywhere. Oprah. I mean, in Seattle, I think I even, like, would watch Oprah from time to time and find great ideas there.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] Books, literature. Some people talk about having a relationship with their loving Heavenly Father where they know that they're loved and they talk to him and share their thoughts and feelings and maybe even he talks back. Any of that for you? What was your relationship like with your Heavenly Father? With Jesus?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:24] So I felt like I prayed for comfort, and that worked for me. I think the act of prayer, oftentimes vocalizing, getting it out, putting it into words, you know, I always felt uncomfortable like this, the asking sort of thing. And honestly, I am sure in the beginning I did pray more. I think it was an evolution throughout time. That's just not something that I regularly looked to do. I would pray sometimes, like to align the universe. Like, I think I always realized that when what I would ask for or what I needed in the large scheme of things probably didn't matter. I didn't ever get the lost keys stories.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:21] It never worked for me, first of all. But also I had this sense of conscience of like, oh, seriously, if you're going to take your time, go feed people who are starving right now and just let me try and figure out where my daughter is in the soccer field, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:36] So I think that was always sort of a barrier. I would use prayer, though, as sort of something that. Like a meditative thing, like, oh, clarify my feelings and my thoughts and kind of put it out there and let's see what comes of it.

The Church's Role in Marriage and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:39:54] What about, you know, family and raising children? Did you feel like the church was helpful in our marriage, in strengthening and supporting our marriage and in raising children? To what extent do you feel like it was useful there or not?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:12] Okay, so here's where it gets interesting, because I feel like here's where there was a point where formula. When you're living a formula, it's like being asleep, right? You're not really awake. You're doing what you're supposed to do because people have told you to do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:33] And. And so there was a little bit of a sleep at the wheel. I feel like with regard to our marriage, how we looked at it and how we kind of went about that, we were so busy building this life, and it's exhausting. All the things that are required of you as a member to be worthy to. Actually, I think it's a lot of hard work.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:00] And so those early years, I remember being quite stressful and tiring, and it was a very conditional love model. It was very much like, are we the same? Are you safe? Are we doing these things? Are kids. Because if you do something wrong, then, whoa, that's off the mark. And it's this conditional love model.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:24] It's very fear. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of, like, achieving, which I already came with, I feel like, in my personality. And so that was a more difficult part of it was this constant striving, constant. Do you remember our kids? We would have them listen to Scripture Scouts. They knew the Book of Mormon backwards and forwards, New Testament, Old Testament. They would go around singing the songs and doing those things. I mean, we were really. We were giving it a go. I just don't know how much joy and fulfillment can be in something that you're not consciously choosing.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] But generally, at the time. Would you have said the church is an important part of strengthening your marriage and raising your Kids and giving them morality and friendships and community.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:17] I feel like for the time of childhood it worked. And we started having some breakdowns once our kids hit the teen years. But, yes, I feel like the church helped me create a childhood for my children that I'm really proud of.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] What about service and chances to serve? Do you feel like the church provided you with important opportunities to. To serve others in what way? Some examples or.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:53] Yeah. So again, it was like mostly young women's. I think I was in nursery for some part of Seattle, and I really tried to be creative and really tried to make things my own and have the kids feel safe and stimulate them. I really liked. I liked opportunities to, like, grow or challenge myself or to help others. Connecting with people in various ways. I always loved that. And young women's was particularly gratifying because again, I felt like I was helping a younger self, my younger self, and it allowed for me to sort of be mentally stimulated.

The Difficult and Painful Aspects of Membership

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Now that you talked about some of the things you loved and the holes that the church filled for you, talk about some of the more difficult aspects of being a member, the parts that were painful or challenging.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:50] Okay. One of the particularly challenging parts of being affiliated, like, strongly affiliated and connected, was just this disconnect from myself. I feel like oftentimes when you're in a religious structure and you're taught to obey, the input is always external, right? You're listening to leaders, you're listening to everyone else except you.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:23] And so I sort of feel like I went through a large part of my life not being able to recognize my own voice, my own needs, even who I was. So we talk about identity, and I use that loosely because I feel like my identity was stunted.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:40] I actually. I never sort of dreamed freely, like had a dream free from this structure or imposed formula. And so that disconnection to self, I think it's costly. It tends to catch up with you sooner or later. And it definitely did for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:03] The second thing that was difficult for me was this perfectionism hustle that I think comes out of organized religion. Again, because the idea of religion kind of comes from this depravity, right? That we aren't okay on our own.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:25] We need a savior, we need a prophet. You can't think through things on your own. You couldn't possibly do this on your own. And so from that there's this unworthiness. And so not to mention this cultural pressure to keep all these tops going in order for you to get blessings or to be considered.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:49] And so I think I came With a lot of that on my own. And so I feel like that sort of cultural emphasis as well and religious emphasis was a bit of a perfect storm for me and I think reinforced aspects of myself that weren't healthy.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Like what?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:15] Like the constant striving like that I had to work for love, that I had to work for value, that I wasn't worthy on my own or capable on my own, that I couldn't be trusted. Those things were particularly difficult.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] How'd that play out for you internally and in your life? How did that show up and in unhealthy ways?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:44] Well, I definitely growing up I struggled with an eating disorder. So that sort of out of control. Now in fairness, there are a lot of things that went into that eating disorder, but for me it centered on unworthiness. For me, that's where it began. It wasn't about eating or trying to be skinny. And so control was a way for me to sort of. Control around food is a way to deny your worthiness. You aren't, you're not even willing to take in life sustaining things. So it was this manifestation of how I felt about myself. So there was that. But also I feel like, I honestly feel like there are certain points in my life where I abandoned myself. I.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Do you think of a time or a couple times?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:39] I think one particular time was when we were engaged and about to be married. And I loved school, I've always loved learning and I had a semester to go. And you, when we got married, I think I remember you feeling really a lot of pressure to move into the role of sort of providing we have to earn a living. It just got really real really quickly. And so I left BYU having not earned a degree. And for someone who wanted to get a master's and had sort of dreams that way, everyone that knew me was like, what, what did you want to do?

John Dehlin [00:48:20] You get a master's and do what in English Lit?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:23] I mean my tentative dream was to teach adjunct and write. I wanted to be a writer.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] What kept you from doing that?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:33] Yeah, I think it was my buy in. This is where I betrayed myself. I think it was my buy in to a structure. I realized, hey, this guy is pretty great. Which you were. He's pretty awesome. I haven't met someone quite like him before. And at that time you feeling really strongly that we needed to go. And so it left me in a place.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Go where? What was I wanting to do?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:01] We had, we had gotten a job in D.C. at SRA Corporation.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] And so you what was I driving

Margi Dehlin [00:49:08] towards towards stability and being a good provider and sort of building. We were living the formula. What was next? What was next was a family trying to provide for a family, which would mean babies. Babies are us. Babies are us. But so I ended up leaving. And that was in. I feel like internally I betrayed myself there, and I felt it. And I graduated from college when Maya was born.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] And how did that. Looking back, how was that not such a good thing for you to follow that plan? You've said it, but just summarize it.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:56] Well, I think a good plan takes in to account the passions and the, you know, of both people. And so I feel like there was a great way that if I could have heard my own voice, if I could have been aware of it and spoken it, and all those things didn't exist at that time, I could have said to you, hey, love, I love the idea of you getting a job. And you have to know, in marrying me, I'm finishing school right here, right now. I got a semester to go. And then from there, let's look at what we want to do together. Beyond that, you know, I just think I could have tried that and I could have honored myself and still been part of a couple and still lived the formula.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] You don't regret having kids, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:53] No.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] No.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] You just.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:57] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] You just would have done it differently.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:00] So this is a tricky thing, doing it differently, because I'm very at peace with my life now. I'm very at peace with my children and how it all worked. And you go back and you start changing things, and it's like, about time. You can't change from the beginning without changing the end. And I really have an appreciation for my journey now. But if you're going to ask what I'm telling my daughters and my son, what I'm telling them is, this is your time. No need to rush it, like, discover who you are, take classes, get that first job, maybe have your own place, an apartment, and have relationships amidst that that you want. But this time is your time. It may not come again, you know, in this way, in this unbridled, free way. So really, really love it and feel good about using it and living it to its fullest.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Anything else that was hard about your participation in the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:05] I had sensitivities around time and family. I think you probably felt that growing up, my mom was uber involved and, you know, always had. We'd be having Christmas and then, hey, ho, the missionaries are coming too. And we were like, the missionaries? Seriously?

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Why?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:22] Why are they coming to it was like everything was just up for anyone was welcome. We had people live with us who, you know, were having a hard time, young women live with us. And it just felt like sometimes for me, there were some boundary issues. And so as a result, I was quite protective of our family time and so callings. Those things were things that I navigated carefully time and felt protective of.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Anything else that was hard about being Mormon for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:55] The temple. Okay, so. So I just remember being married, beautiful moments being married, but I also remember the temple being a complete shock to me from the way that I had grown up hearing about it. And I think what ended up happening was when I went to be married, that I.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:29] I just couldn't believe. No one close to me had warned me or said, okay, here's a. Heads up, here's a. And I felt so dissonant, so strange amidst the things that went on there that it troubled me. It really troubled me because it's supposed to be like, this is heaven on earth. Like, this is the pinnacle of. And I was so deeply uncomfortable with it that I thought, honestly, I remember thinking, like, this is the best God has. This is it. This is what we get. This is the. And, you know, maybe even taking it internally to, like, why don't I like it? Why does it feel so wrong and so strange to me? And that was always an issue for me, and I rarely went and did you.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Do you feel like you had some residual guilt or shame that you didn't enjoy it?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:32] Well, not now. Then I. Then, yes, then I did tend to feel, like, when it was talked about and when people would laud it as, you know, this special. I just. It was, again, a disconnect from the community at large and from, you know, doctrine. And that went to garments, too. I was deeply uncomfortable wearing garments.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Why? What's wrong with garments?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:04] Well, I loved the idea. There are things I loved about it. Like, I love symbolism. I'm all about symbolism. It can work for me, but I'm not about. I never felt comfortable with the protective it's gonna protect. I'm just not made that way, I guess. So I never really. I love the idea of a reminder of commitment, but I'm like, could my ring count? Like, could I. Could my heart count? Can my. Like, I've got that. I've got that going on. And so for me, it felt shame, and it really did play into, like, going to bed always trying to, like, wear it. It felt like I was literally trying to cover up parts of myself. And I do feel like it kind of affected me sexually, how I viewed myself sexually. That covering. That's something that I've realized through taking the garments off.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] How did it affect you sexually?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:04] Well, I think there's. There was just a psychological shame component to always feeling like, but cover up, but cover it up. But, you know, whatever you do, be covered, you know. And so I always, like, would wear running clothes longer. I'd be like, yeah, well, I ran four hours ago so that I could wear normal things. And then I think I'm also just a comfort person. And so wearing things under things, under things. I'm just like, really? Like, it just doesn't feel good. How about we not.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] But you wore them.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:41] I wore them, but I'd get that kind that, like, on the ends that you could push up. Because I wasn't gonna wear the ultra long short because, like, who does that? And trying to find shorts that are long enough that when you sit, like, because they go up, that they don't show. And I hated the idea of, like, them showing. So I'd get that kind. And you could just push them up high. And then I could wear normal shorts and skirts.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] How about just in terms of their comfort?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:07] Well, they're not comfortable. They have seams in very not seemable places. They should take a design team to the garment idea. Anyway,

Temple Experiences and Struggles

John Dehlin [00:57:22] going back to the temple, you had made a funny comment about the handshakes and stuff. Do you want to do the ritual itself? Do you want to just talk about your reflections on the ritual?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:35] I kind of skipped over that because I wonder if people would be offended by the fact that I would talk about it that way, you know, emotionally. I did have that, though, where there are hats and things that you're moving and you're. And you're in this place that's that, you know, you think it's built. It's been built up years and years through young women's. And so you get there and I just remember, you know, you got to do the right handshake and say the right thing, and it's verbatim, and you got to memorize it and you gotta. And I just thought, really, God, this is God's idea. I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. This is the best we've got.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] So you just thought the temple wasn't true, or you just thought.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:26] I kind of did.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] But did you ever say, maybe the problem's you, or did you not go there?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:31] I think in some of my more vulnerable feeling different moments, I probably did. I just Stayed away. I stayed away. And in lessons, I, you know, tried to focus on other things.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] Anything else about the difficulties of being a Mormon? The hardest parts for you, or do you think you covered them?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:58] I do view the conditional love paradigm really, really problematic, where it keeps us young. It keeps us, I would say the

John Dehlin [00:59:11] obedience young can be good.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:14] What do you mean, keeps us young? You mean immature?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:18] Well, I want to talk.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Do you mean stunted?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:22] So what would I say about that? So I just feel like religion offers a God that offers conditional love. It's like, follow my rules and you will be redeemed, and you can live with me, and you get my grace and you get my, you know, love. And I have an issue with that. And what I've learned is there's this great opportunity in transitioning about where you move to unconditional love.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Well, listen, don't talk about that. Talk about the hard part, about conditional love.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:58] So conditional love is controlling. Conditional love, I feel like, isn't growth promoting? It's strictly, you know, this is what you have to do to be loved. Follow this, this, this, this, and this. Right? And it just. It keeps the. The love immature, it keeps it untried, and it. It tends to, I feel like, internally erode over time.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Why? Because, like, for you personally thinking the idea of having to earn your love, how did that negatively play out in your life growing up? The structure of having to earn your love, how did that not work for you?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:39] I think I became addicted to achievement. I became addicted to overworking. I became addicted to always proving my worth, which of course then leads you to be more disconnected and dishonoring of yourself. And it's this spiral that leads you to sort of exhaustion.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:01] And how do you offer love to another human being when that's the love structure that you have for yourself? You know, that we can do better as human beings. That structure works against how we're made, in my opinion. We're not made to stay stagnant. We change, we grow, we evolve as humans through experience, right? So we're not always going to be the same. We're not always going to be able to be mapped out in these particular things where you and I are on the same page and feel the same things and want to do, you know, at the exact same time, it's built to. To fail or at the very least, to be unhealthy, in my opinion.

Conditional Love, Perfectionism, and Lingering Doubts

John Dehlin [01:01:43] When you talk about your eating disorder and your perfectionism, I mean, on the one hand, you said that the conditional love paradigm led you to Be a high achiever. And some would say that's good. You're winning running championships, you're doing well in school, you're getting married, you're living a healthy, clean life. So for you, was there any dark side personally to the conditional love paradigm?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:14] Yes, it's that I felt unworthy of love.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] How did that play out in your life?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:19] I think it played out in the love I gave in my connection with myself and how I connected with others. I think it made me perpetually exhausted, it made me intention wise, it makes all the difference. I love achievement when it's my choice, when I feel passionate and driven on my own. But if I'm doing that because I'm trying to be loved, because I feel like this is my, then it's an addiction like any other addiction, where you're sacrificed, you are sacrificed at large for this end. Right. And that's when we get into literal addictions. Depression, anxiety, things that rob us of joy and fulfillment, you know, in the present moment where everything happens.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Did it affect negatively your relationship with your spouse or children, do you think?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:17] I think it affected the way I connected with them in an adverse way. Because anytime you're trying to control outcome, you're in control people, it's not love and they feel that. And that's something I think people prize more than anything is they want to be trusted, they want to be viewed as whole, they want to be viewed as lovable. And when you're not able to, you're giving an energy that is distrustful, fear based, control based. It's you. What you get is you get disconnection and you get a whole lot of resistance.

John Dehlin [01:03:53] Did you ever experience any doubts as a believer or

Margi Dehlin [01:04:00] so I feel like I've kind of covered some of the areas where I struggled or had doubts. So definitely around the temple, definitely around the idea of giving time when it comes at a cost to family. I was always very much family first, you know, some of those issues and very much struggling with concrete belief, the concrete historicity, the Book of Mormon being factual, historical, all those things were blacks in the priesthood, all of those things were shelf items for me.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] Did polygamy ever bug you?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:43] Yeah, polygamy bothered me.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] How did it bother you as a

Margi Dehlin [01:04:47] female and as the idea was and kind of the way I'm made, I'm made for partnership and companionship and intimacy and I just, I didn't understand how that would work logistically. It just went against reason for me.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] What about the one true church idea?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:15] So the one brilliant, always Had a hard time with that. Here's another issue I had that's so good is that as converts, our extended family were all non members. They all were. And living in the east, all of my good friends were not Mormon. And so I think what happens there is that anytime you have a lesson on, you know, here's what it takes, and you do this, this and this, and then you get to be. And you get to go to heaven. And by the way, here are the levels. You know, anytime you have a lesson like that. I had an older brother who was struggling at different parts.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:00] What you're thinking is, oh, those people I love won't be there. And why would that be? Because these people I love are great people. We see that, we know that, we see their lives are beautiful, we see their great parents, we see that they care about other people and are trying to live really responsible, conscientious lives. And so anytime I had a lesson like that, and I had seen too much beauty, I had seen too much truth in other people that were different than me to really feel like that was a viable way.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] So the one true church idea, never said it. How about Joseph Smith being a prophet?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:49] Yeah, I had issues. You know, I think the best I did was in Susan Black's class at BYU where she was trying to piece it all together. And even in that construct, I could not. I knew, like psychologically, his sort of behavior, I could not. I couldn't make it right. I couldn't make it make sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:16] And visions. What was wrong with Joseph envisions the vision, the supernatural element. I've always just had a hard time. I've always had a hard time with that. I grew up with a quiet father, a gentle father. His strength and his power was in his being.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:43] He was not forceful or charming. He was charming, but not in a manipulative way. In a way where he was being a great listener and really, really wise. And so growing up and being connected with mental health through my dad, we've lived in mental health hospitals while houses were being built. We attended holidays at mental health hospitals. His profile of just this larger. Joseph Smith's profile of this larger than life being, even though I didn't have the details at that time, of all the women and the girls at that time, I naturally found something that I didn't trust about it.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] So he doubted that. What about, like Gordon B. Hinckley or Thomas S. Monson? As a prophet, did you ever, like, look to them as your prophets as God's mouthpiece on the earth?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:49] I Always was aware who was the prophet. But again, culturally, in our home, I feel like psychology was much more a part of our life. We went to one. We went to. What is it called? One session of conference. When conference came, like, I remember coming to byu and I'm like, holy cow. There are so many sessions of conference. People, like, go to church all day. I just really didn't have any idea about that because we would drive to the church, listen to a couple hours, call it good, head home.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] But did you ever look to them as God's mouthpiece on the earth?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:32] No.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Gordon B. Hinckley talks to God, and he is my representative.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:37] That's kind of an interesting part, because I don't. I don't. I feel like the height of that was when I married you, Love. And we were raising our young kids, and general conference would roll around and you'd be like, every session. We will listen to every session. And I was like, cinnamon rolls coloring. Let's color play quietly.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] What kept you committed to the church in spite of your doubts?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:09] So definitely there's that idea again of unworthiness, right? Where how could I possibly create on my own what this institution provides, what this community provides? And clearly I need it, because I bought into the model that on my own, I didn't have it. Someone else would have to fill me up, you know, someone else would have to give it to me. And so I think that learned helplessness model we were talking about, I think that was definitely part of it. A natural fear and a distrust that I could manage it on my own, that I had what it took. And then that, of course, bled into my children, because then it equally applied to how I parented that.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:04] I looked at my kids as, on the one hand, you have, like, blessed are the children, but on the other hand, you have this idea of, like, you have to teach them morality. You have to teach them how to be good. You have to, you know, protect them.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:22] And I just felt like, how could I possibly do that, all that on my own? How could I provide? So. And then I think that there was a heavy dose of, you know, a respect for my children's journeys in and for themselves, that I didn't feel comfortable on a level, having my journey dictate theirs. That was something that made me feel uncomfortable. I, at 9 and 12, had the church, and so who was I to step into my child's life and say, not for you, not for you. At 9 or 12, I just. I felt very hesitant to reach in and control their journeys in a Way like that.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] What about disappointing your parents? Was that a part of what kept you in.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:20] I think in my earlier years, when there's a bit of a juxtaposition where my older brother struggled for a time and, you know, there was a time when it was stressful. That's what I'll say. In our home. And I tried very hard to be. Be the good child, the obedient child, the one that didn't cause stress. So maybe during that time that would have been true, but I wouldn't say that that's something that lingers in my psyche. By the time I had had children and moved away a bit, that's not something that stays in my mind, really.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] Going to your mom and saying, I'm leaving the church, that has. That's the reason why we have our final four children. I'm leaving the church. That.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:11] I know it sounds flippant. I know. All I can say is it wasn't in my psyche. And I do have. I do have this. I have a strange mix of really loving structure and stability and also saying, when it's time, I'm done, I'm done. And, you know, not really overly caring about what people think.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Did your marriage to me and the covenants in the temple and the family unity and disrupting our family play a role in you not leaving or, you know, putting those doubts on the shelf?

Margi Dehlin [01:13:52] For sure. That was one of them. One of the biggest. One of the biggest things that. I was going to talk more in the other section, but. Yes, absolutely, go ahead. Okay, so how did that keep you so fear? It's that fear that you've always been told in church. I had this tremendous. So are we moving into.

How Family Ties Kept Her in the Church

John Dehlin [01:14:16] Just talk about how your marriage to me and the kids kept you in the church even though you had doubts.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:24] Okay, so I had three fears. Okay. As I was staring. Doubt, like doubts head on.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] I don't want to go into the point where you started the doubt.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Just talk about to what extent did being married to me, having kids and being in the church keep you in the church when you had doubts?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:44] Sure. Okay, so here is the thing. When you marry someone and you marry someone with this sort of. It feels like there's this agreement of church participation and testimony, and it becomes intertwined with love for that person. It's that conditional love model. So, yes, to think about leaving, it was like me thinking about, well, how much of us is actually in the church part. Like, if we take that part out, like, how much love will be left?

Margi Dehlin [01:15:23] Can we be committed, without it can we be? And that's where that individuation and that personal growth that comes from your own voice and your own development, where it has kept us young because. And immature is that at that point, I didn't view myself as a flow fully formed adult.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:45] I really was enmeshed in this system, in this structure, right. Where my identity was not fully developed. And it was absolutely dependent on this larger entity, independent from me.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] Any other things that.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:10] And my children. Again, it's the empty cup things. It's feeling like, what would I give them? What would I provide? The instability in our home, you know, then what do we do? Then where are we going? Then we're like reinventing the wheel. Is that how we. I had just. I had no models for that. I didn't know anyone really doing that. And so for me and my sort of personality type, family and my marriage, it's everything to me. And so I was willing to sacrifice in order to keep it stable and secure.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] At any point, did you ever, like before the real doubts and questions kicked in, did you ever see yourself leaving? Did you ever see yourself. Did you ever, like before the big one happened, did you ever see yourself leaving the church?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:10] No, because I think my personality is such that I tend to be firmly rooted. Like, I bloom where I'm planted, until it gets really uncomfortable, until I'm sort of pushed out and made really, really uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] So you never saw yourself leaving? If someone had asked you, could you say yourself, I really leave the church? What would you say at that point? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:36] No.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] Okay.

The Beginning of the Faith Transition

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 685

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Tell us the story of the beginning of your faith transition. What happened? How did it happen?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:18] So the impetus would have been you, love. So I have a memory of you coming to me, and we had put the kids to bed. It was later in the evening, and you sat me down in our bedroom.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:39] And I remember your voice was shaking. I remember your hand actually shaking when it took my hand. You kind of led me to sit down. And I had known the background that you were teaching seminary. I knew that you were doing extra reading.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:55] I could tell by your mood that something was up. But I remember you saying something to the effect of, you know, I have something to tell you. You know, I've been reading a lot, and amidst my reading, I just really feel like the church may not be what it claims to be.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:21] And I remember starting to cry. And why were you crying? Oh, I think, you know what it was like at that moment. It was like, I'm going to bring up the tower image. It was like my life, the church had given me these building blocks of different values, so, like, you know, obedience or service, and it could even be things like attending church on Sunday, whatever. And all through my life, they gave me the blocks, and they told me sort of where to put it, kind of.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:08] And it slowly made this structure that was my life, you know, And I added blocks, too. I think I was proactive in trying to, you know, as I found things, I integrated those in there, too. But I really feel like in that moment, the tower fell. It just fell.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] How did that make you feel?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:34] In an instant. And I think I immediately grew really afraid. I think I immediately was in fight or flight. But I also was looking at you. Someone I love, someone I trust, someone who I know is really devoted to the things that he loves. And so it was this mixture of,

Margi Dehlin [00:03:06] like,

Margi Dehlin [00:03:08] extreme loss and also really wanting to be present to what you were telling me and to offer companionship and be there for you. And so I remember. I remember you going into rough. I remember really roughly that you talked about Joseph Smith a little bit. I think you talked about how many women he was married to, how young, some of the circumstances around that, a lot of the dnc, some of the dnc, sort of background things you would have learned looking into the dnc. And I remember at that moment also feeling this resonance.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:51] And that was really confusing. But it made me, in that moment, say, you know, what does this mean? Do you know what this means? Like, what does this mean for us? What do you want to do? And what should I read? What can I like if I want to learn too, what should I read? And at that point you said, fawn Brody, no man knows my history. And I did, I read it.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] And

Margi Dehlin [00:04:23] again, I think I.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Do you remember any impressions from the book? Did it seem anti Mormon? Did it seem untrue? Did it seem scandalous or.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:34] No, it didn't seem scandalous to me. It read like historic. It read like something historical. And a lot of those things, it was strangely affirming to some of the things that I had felt as I read, like, oh, yes, there it is. And yes. And so it was strange that in the moment you were telling me something new and something that I actually had that voice that I had silenced that I didn't really know. It spoke up in that moment. What did it say for me too? And I suspected that the church wasn't true.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] What was that like to feel, oh my gosh, this thing I had spent my whole life being committed to might not be true. What did that feel like?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:34] So I think there were probably, there was probably a sense of betrayal for a bit, for a moment. I think I tend to go inward though. I tended, I tend to go to like, you know, I'm so naive. Like, oh, see all those things I thought all along I could go back and remember the things I had difficulty with and just feeling like, how naive was I?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:04] But even more than that, I have to tell you this was not in this moment. It didn't stay with me very long because what I felt like happened was that this boat that was our family and our life and our marriage began to really become unstable.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:26] And I feel like at that point my major intention and objective was how do I stabilize the boat? How do I. And so Seattle for me was about stabilizing the boat. And I didn't really begin the journey of really transitioning from myself until we moved to Utah shortly after.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] So several years, at least a few years.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:53] To me it felt like a year. Ish.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] I think my faith crisis was 2001 ish and we left in 2004.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] Yeah. A lot of spouses, when the believing spouse hears the non believing spouse say they don't believe anymore, it makes them retrench and go the other way and become more committed to the church almost to hold on to the church with a really tighter grasp because they see their non believing spouse falling away and they feel like they have to go the other way. Did you what? And, and, and if not that they often feel anger or resentment or fear directed at the non believer to the Extent that it really just drives this huge wedge in the relationship where the. Where the non believer becomes a disappointment and kind of a broken, fallen person that needs to be saved.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] What kept you, number one, from retrenching in the church and seeing me as a bad guy? That's part one of the question. And what was it that allowed you so quickly to actually be willing to learn and to consider the things I had said versus plug your ears and close your eyes and run the other direction?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] So, okay, well, what I. The first part of the question, I feel like I was looking at someone I love suffering. You were suffering and you had been suffering. And so I just didn't want to leave you.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] What do you mean by leave me?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:53] I didn't want to leave you alone in that I wanted to at least

Margi Dehlin [00:08:57] be able to hold it for a bit. And I trusted you. Your behavior and your life attested to the type of human you were. And that meant something to me in this process. So at that time, all I saw was a human that I loved, suffering. And it made me want to

Margi Dehlin [00:09:29] be

Margi Dehlin [00:09:29] a witness and share what I could so you didn't have to be alone in it. And I was very imperfect at doing that. So I do feel like there were times you were very sad in Seattle, and I do feel like there was an obsessive quality to the reading and the researching at that point. And then the more you would read and the more you would research, the more depressed and sad and conflicted you became. And so that was a process. There were moments where I said to you, you have to slow down. You have to come up for air. Like, you have a family here around you that loves you, and it's like you don't even see us.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:11] We had those moments where. And I do believe I had moments too, where I judged you, where I thought you brought this discomfort, you brought this instability to us, you know, what now? Like, let's regain stability. How do we do that? Where are we going?

Margi Dehlin [00:10:28] But the main thing that kept me from living there, from, like, pitching a tent in this place that would allow judgment and discord and this divide between us was that I really valued our family life. And I really.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:48] I knew that if I that misdirected, our family could be divided, that you could be seen as inactive or the one that, you know, was transgressing or. And I could be the good one and the faithful one and our kids. And then I thought, really, you know, that would be the worst ever, that what I wanted most was this idea that our family was going to stick together, that we stood by each other and that we would love each other. And that's where that conditional love paradigm began to shift.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] What do you mean? From what to what?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:34] From us. The sameness, us having to fall in line to. What if he's different? What if now we're different? What if things he wants to do now with regard to the church, like talk to the bishop, is different than something I want to do now? Can we love then? Is our love big enough to hold those types of differences? And it was right then we were beginning a new path and a new love, a new paradigm.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] And then what made you willing to read no Man Knows My History, a book that many feared? What made you willing to go read and learn versus just say, I don't want to know, I don't want to know?

Margi Dehlin [00:12:30] I think it was because I had that resonance. I think I heard a piece of me came alive and I wanted to know. I wanted to read. I wanted to say, you know what? There's part of this that's been part of my story all along where I've had difficulty. I should at least look at it for myself.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] And as you were doing that, did you get dark feelings of, like, this is evil. What feelings did you get as you began studying?

Margi Dehlin [00:13:04] I think I felt. I felt whole. I felt finally these. All these different pieces that kind of lived and were disconnected in me or shelved. All were able to come together. And it made sense. And it was hard, it was disappointing, and it was a death of a life and a way of viewing the world and myself, for sure. But it also was tremendously relieving.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] In what way?

Margi Dehlin [00:13:45] Because the dissonance, there was no dissonance then. And it allowed me to see that my voice or those little inclinations that I had had all along actually had a place and made sense. And all of the. Again, all of the things that sort of didn't make sense, there was a place for them now that made sense.

Confronting Disbelief and Its Fears

John Dehlin [00:14:12] So now when for the first time, you're actually no longer believing that the church was what it claims to be, were you scared? Did the thought of no longer believing, and even worse, the thought of leaving it, did that scare you?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:28] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] What was that like? What were the things that you thought and felt as you contemplated the possibility of leaving the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:39] Yeah. So here's the deal. When the tower fell for me, I was overcome with anxiety and just this mourning. Mourning, you know, sort of my life before as I knew it. And so I feel like that anxiety led me to have a lot of fear. And ironically, that's what led me to new building blocks right away, and it helped me start rebuilding. But at that time, yes, I was overcome with fear and anxiety for a time, and I, as a reaction, had then done to come up with some coping strategies. But those fears would have been that my marriage was going to suffer in a major way, that my family would suffer in some way because of the choices that we were making, and that I would suffer a death of a loved one and that I would just fall apart.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Death of a loved one? What do you mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:00] Just death of a loved one? Because I feel like that existential sort of peace or the death peace just sort of came alive in that moment. And I don't know, it was one of. It was. It had lived within with me, I think, all along. But it came to a head then. Those were the three things that I think really came alive for me.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] That it could hurt your marriage, that it could hurt your children. And what about death now?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:30] And what about death?

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Because the church had plugged that hole regarding death, and now all of a sudden, that hole got unplugged.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:38] Yes. And I realized that they hadn't done that cognitively for me, but they had done it emotionally or psychologically in some way for me.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] And if you could describe kind of the worst fears that your brain would put forth about leaving the church, what was your brain feeding you? Oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:58] Like, all my kids will be on drugs, all my kids will have early pregnancies. Our marriage isn't going to last. We're going to get divorced. There'll be infidelity. I'm going to suffer a tragedy of some sort. Now that sort of all those things that the church tells you happens to people that leave would happen, I'd be like a walking testament of, see, that's what happens to you.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Right. Was there any part of you that was excited about the prospect of leaving? And if so, describe that, what those thoughts were.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:42] So I don't know if in that moment, in that early time, I would say that I was excited, but I would say that I felt liberated on a level from carrying the cognitive dissonance. So there was a sense of liberation. And I did sense that in my suffering, in facing those fears or becoming aware of the great fear and anxiety of this tumult and trying to stabilize the boat, I began to wake up to myself. And our marriage began to wake up in a really dramatic way, just the very beginnings. But I would say to myself, those blocks started forming Amidst the death, this structure, things were being born already.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Like what?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:37] Like I started doing yoga. Like I started reading books like Elizabeth Lesser's the Seeker's Guide or. And I started getting excited about new ways to look at living, new ways to look at morality. I became more, I actually became more passionate about mothering, about how I wanted to do things, how I could integrate different ways of being with my children, where I felt like it could actually be better, maybe I could actually do some things better and lose some of those things that were really troubling or that I had already been kind of, you know, struggling with.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Did you ever look into Mormon apologetics? Sort of like, you know, the academic believing Mormons that try and give justifications for why Joseph did polygamy or why the Book of Mormon was true? Was apologetics in any way a part of your grappling with the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:47] So the way I view that is I feel like I got a lot of apologetics at byu actually. I feel like many of my religion classes approached polygamy that way or the life of Joseph Smith that way. And what I knew was it didn't satiate me, it didn't work for me, it didn't last, it always came back, the problems always sort of re emerged. So no.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] So Susan Eastman Black, for example, didn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:22] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Save the day.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] My sense is there's a whole lot of people in the church who, maybe it's a small percentage, maybe 5, 10, 20% who don't believe anymore, but who just stay in as a, as a semi believer or as a non believer. So did you try that for how long and what was that like for you to do that, to kind of remain in the church after you no longer believed fully?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:55] Yes, I did do that. I don't know how many years I would say that was. Our path was so varied here where

John Dehlin [00:21:04] it was like 13 or 14 years.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:07] And within that time we exposed our kids to other churches. We didn't, we didn't attend, we attended loosely. So what I would say is yes, I did try that and it worked. While it worked so in ways that it worked was, you know, at one point our kids wanted to go and wanted to affiliate and so it really worked during that time to go to sacrament meeting or to do and to support them. That felt very good because my buy in was less and I was there supporting my children.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:51] What I do remember is personally, so just for me and my journey, there was a time when I could, when I could sit and I could listen and then there Was a time when I felt like it became expensive, it became emotionally expensive. And the way I knew that was I would come home and I would be grouchy or I would feel exhausted after attending, and I literally would have the thought of, I really wish I'd gone for a walk instead. I really wish I had done something else with my time. And that was the time that I knew that I should probably do something different.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] Was it ever hard to just talk about what it was like to be at church when you didn't believe? When it was hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:44] So being at church when it was hard was like you practicing compassionate listening and patience and being able to hold a lot of different opinions from you and never being able to speak your own because they couldn't offer the thing that you were being expected to offer

John Dehlin [00:23:09] and meaning they couldn't compassionately listen to you. Like you were compassionate.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] Right. Like if I offered an honest point of view about something or a different way of seeing would have supercharged the room and made the atmosphere. It would have just changed the atmosphere. Because, you know, those lessons are like a train. They're on a destination, you know, and if you say anything too different or too honest, it sends the. The train can't handle it. And they try to get back to the track, just sort of. And it's very shaming and it's very uncomfortable to be that voice, honestly. And it has never really been my style to try and make a whole bunch of people uncomfortable, you know, so then you're placed in this no win position where you're fighting against yourself because you feel like for your integrity, you should say something.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:06] Right. But at the same time, you can't, in that structure, say something. It's not safe. And, you know, I tend to respect people and not want to disturb people knowingly. So it's just. It turns to a place where it's like, I'm not sure these people are my people anymore. I'm not sure this is my place anymore. I just feel different.

Concerns About Children and Difficult Church Teachings

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Do you ever remember hearing things taught that offended you or hearing about things your children were taught that offended you or worried you about them being taught? If so, talk about some stories there.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:50] Hmm.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:52] All I can say that I remember is that we got to a point where our children would come home and share what they liked about a lesson and what they didn't around the Sabbath table.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] Any examples?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:06] So.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] So Second coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:08] Okay. So thank you. Yeah. So in young women's, oftentimes that would be a triggering point for our daughters because, of course, we Have a mixed family where some people go, some people don't. And so those, those lessons are highly traumatizing. So during that time we to say what do you believe about that? Why do you think you were uncomfortable during that lesson and offering support when our children would feel much the same way as we saying. But I couldn't just say that I couldn't, you know. And I feel hushed all the time. And I feel so I feel like that's when we started navigating that their voice was important, that they should actually pay attention to their own voices amidst.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:58] And it wasn't so much that church was designed to tell them what to believe, but in fact to offer all this exposure to ideas to further their development as to like I feel like I can take that and I don't want anything to do with that. And we did that for a time. It worked for a time for them.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Do you remember Maya and Noah in the ark?

Margi Dehlin [00:26:23] So that was very young. She was like three or four. That was in Seattle. And Maya came to us very young and said I'm not sure about this, I don't know about this. We used to read the illustrated scriptures. We're very consistent about a spiritual thought in the morning before people went on with their day and we had read the Noah's ark story and she as a young girl said now God loved the earth. God made the earth, right? And then God created the animals, right? And God created the people, right? And then God killed all the people and all the animals. And it was this just her innocent way of thinking through like how does God behave? Like is that how do I want that concept of God? That was something that I remember in that moment we allowed for and supported her having that feeling and having that question.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Do you remember them worrying about Uncle Scott after coming home from church?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] When we were in Seattle, a close one of my closest humans, my cousin Scott came out to us, me first in a very as gay in a very traumatic way. He is one of the most peaceful, loving, just absolutely non harming people. And as he described his tumult trauma, wanting to end his life, years and years of suffering trying to have it not be so.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:26] I felt completely agonized for him. And in that moment I remember offering him my love and my support and thanking him for telling me. And that really affected our family because all of us loved him. And so it's those intimate connections I think that just sort of shift us enough.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:53] Where you know, then those church lessons or those. When we're exposed to ideas about you know, LGBT Q Youth or. It's different. It just becomes personal then. And that was true with our kids. It became very personal and they became very upset at any sort of derogatory speech, judgmental speech around it. They just wanted to love inherently.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Remember the time the kids came home with the worksheet with all the different ways people would die during the Second Coming who weren't members?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] And tying that to Uncle Scott.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:34] Yep. And my brothers.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Yeah, you want to talk about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:37] And my brothers just tell that story. So they had been studying the Second coming and came home with this worksheet and were really emotionally distraught. They were younger still. And I remember them really, really being angry about it and really worried about it that they had flashes in their

Margi Dehlin [00:30:07] eyes of all the people they love

Margi Dehlin [00:30:10] who aren't LDS and them dying these horrible deaths and seeing it. And that was. That was another time where we had to go bigger, go meta and say, what do you believe about God with relation to this? And you know, go a little bit deeper.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Was there a point that you remember when you just said, we can't stay anymore? If so, when was that time?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:50] So you and I never decided that for our children. I feel like we experimented. So we had experimental periods where there was a time when we did not go to church and we tried other things. We went to a Quaker church, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Unitarian, and.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:14] And we did that for a time. But what we found was socially structured our community, the way it was structured and the way our kids personalities worked, that they felt they at different times wanted to go back. And what we found at that time was we were rarely on the same page. Do you remember that? Like we would have some kids wanting to go, other kids not wanting to go.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:39] And so during that time we were really careful to embrace the unconditional love model and to support their journeys. And that meant if one person was going to church, then John or I would go so that they never had to sit alone in sacrament meeting.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:00] And that was true up to the point of excommunication. Our daughters were. I feel like both of our daughters were in young women presidency for their classes positions.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] So do you remember a point where you just said, we can't do this anymore?

Margi Dehlin [00:32:20] I remember a point for myself where I felt like I will be taking no new information. If I'm going to support my children, it is to support my children. But I am taking in. I am now emotionally separated from this institution in this process. But we didn't try to overly convince our children of that. Though I do remember some discussions where you would discuss seminary lessons, things they were learning in seminary, trying to clarify information, false information, versus. And that was hard. Those were challenging conversations.

Deciding to Leave and the Disciplinary Process

John Dehlin [00:33:11] So when did you decide to leave for good?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:16] It feels like. It feels like at the time of the letter of excommunication, we were going to church once or twice a month to sacrament meeting with volleying kids. And that is where we were up to the point of the letter. We were still. We were still going. I was still going to sort of support kids. So fairly. Fairly recent, the letter changed. I stopped going pretty quickly after the letter.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] Why?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:04] So there was the letter, and then we met with the stake president, as I recall. And between those two happenings,

John Dehlin [00:34:14] what was that like, meeting with the stake president?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:16] Oh,

John Dehlin [00:34:19] well, first, what was it like to receive a letter that I was being summoned to a disciplinary council?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:26] So we had always talked about this being a possible. Something that was possible. And we had kind of talked through how we would want to navigate that with our children still being involved with that idea of not having our journey become their journey, that they still feel this freedom to not have to let it go if they're feeling like some part of them needs some part of it. So I feel like it was completely striking. I was very surprised because you had met with the previous stake president for, like, a year, and I really felt like we had received the message that you were welcome.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:10] We had been investigated by that point three different times by people in our neighborhood in various ways. And so I really felt like the worst. Like the worst was kind of behind us, that we had gotten the. We had finally had the stake president clear. You baptized Winston. And so to me, it felt like it came out of left field. And it made more sense when I met the stake president.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] So were you worried? Were you excited?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:44] It felt like in the letter, prospects

John Dehlin [00:35:46] of excommunication made you feel what?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:48] Okay, so it wasn't the prospect. Okay, that's a twofold. Because there was the prospect of excommunication, which I had semi prepared for. It was still very surprising, but I had had it somewhere in my awareness that it could happen. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:04] But the second part was how the letter was framed. And the letter was framed in such a way that I knew it was going public no matter what. It was like, either you're coming in for a court or you don't. And we announce it from. There was something about announcing it in our stake, which is basically everyone that my kids go to school with, you know, and so there was just a Threat in that, that I had not, I hadn't prepared myself for, for me, I would, would have had it go quietly under the radar, respectfully. We could have conveyed it in a certain way to our kids and controlled, had some control, I would say, over their situation and their, their processing still.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:58] And so at that point when we got the letter, there was a great deal of panic. I was very stressed because we decided to go public to fight it because it was going to be public anyway. We knew at some point the wards in our stake would know and that in the end it made sense then to at least try to be honest and address the issues that were the issues.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:33] And I'm private and I really respect our kids privacy. It's part of why we live in Logan. And so it was extremely stressful for all of us.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] And how did you feel treated by the stake president in our meetings with him, Brian King?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:59] So it was very clear from the first interview that Brian King was going to be the guy to excommunicate you. He was determined. He was done with all the. He actually said that straight out that he was going to be the guy that the other stake president was soft hearted and it was going down on his watch and I believed him. And I kind of viewed the times we met afterwards as formality, as something that he felt like he was doing. So he could say he did it, but he never asked me a single question. And actually the only time I spoke, and this is true of many, many of the interviews with bishops over the years, is when you asked at one point, margie, do you have anything you want to say? But I was never, he never asked, he never asked me.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] So that made you feel what? The fact that he never really. I was on trial, but you and I have the same views but he never asked you a question. What was that like?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:11] So I couldn't quite, I didn't quite, in all honesty, I didn't quite know how to take that because I don't know if he knew I had the same views. I'm not sure how he was looking at me at that point, to be honest with you, until I spoke, when I spoke it was really clear where I was, but I didn't speak, you know, until the very end of the first. But yeah, it felt very. And that's true of a long process of things where, you know, I wasn't treated as a separate person. I wasn't ever treated as someone who had my own thoughts or opinions or worthy of asking anything. I was like an appendage Barely acknowledged, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] And how'd that make you feel?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:59] So for a. On one level, it makes you feel completely just not seen, not valued. On another level, I felt very okay with that because I didn't want them to get a single piece of me. I didn't want to offer anything to them of myself because they hadn't proven worthy of it, to have it. Except in my defense of you.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] And if you had to describe the overall treatment of us during that time by the church leadership, how would you describe it?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:56] I think you know how someone said the disciplinary council would be like being raped by Care Bears. I didn't feel like there were Care Bears. It was just very. You could tell everyone is acting the way people act when they're doing something to someone that's spiritually violent and that they're. It's up close and personal, and they're uncomfortable with it, and they're also determined to do it. And so that's what it felt like. A lot of shifty eyes, people not looking at you. Very controlled, very inhumane. It's like seeing the underbelly. You've seen sort of this beautiful exterior or a lot of the good about this object, and then you turn it over and you see it's rotting. It was like we were exposed to the rotting part. And I just think after you're exposed to that and you see that side, it's very, very difficult to see the other side in that same way again.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] So talk about your impressions of the actual disciplinary council.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:26] So the disciplinary council was very sterile. We arrived and were ushered. There were actually people kind of like lining as we would walk. So, like, you couldn't go a different way. We were ushered into the Relief Society room to wait. We had to turn in our electronics. They had a place for us to put our electronics. Kind of reminded me of, like, prison or. I was like, okay, sure, my mom.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Use my cell phone.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:00] My mom was there.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:01] Your mom was there, your brother. So various witnesses were there. Quiet. A lot of hushed tones, Formality. Very formal, not personal in any way. Ushered into a different room where we were kind of at the. On the corner of a table.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:35] And people. Men. I've never been in a situation where there was such a power differential and not another female was very, very strange with the Stake Presidency kind of at the head. Very controlled, asking pointed questions, allotting a certain amount of time for responses.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:04] Again, no eye contact. Very little eye contact, no emotion. I don't remember people, any of the men around the table looking at us. At all. They were all playing with their pens or looking down when John spoke, or one beautiful thing that came out of that was to hear the witnesses on John's behalf. They were beautiful. And I thought, where do you really have an opportunity to hear your mother speak about you? Your brother plea.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:40] He was pleading for John for a really beautiful letter by someone who really could stand to lose a lot by exposing himself and reading the letter. And so it was also really, really

Margi Dehlin [00:44:59] moving to have people show up for

Margi Dehlin [00:45:02] you in such an intimate way at such a vulnerable. A vulnerable time. But it was absolutely draining.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] And so after it was all over and, you know, what. What. What did you leave sort of concluding,

Margi Dehlin [00:45:28] I will resign tomorrow.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Resign.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:34] So we waited. We kind of waited. I think that that's what I walked out with, was this feeling of, done, I'm done, and it's a new day.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Why did the excommunication make you want to resign? Like, that took me by surprise

Margi Dehlin [00:45:59] because all through the process, the building of Mormon stories, I feel like you and

Margi Dehlin [00:46:04] I

Margi Dehlin [00:46:08] am the background. I am not. I am not the face. I feel like you are the creative energy. But it was born from you and me, from talking ideas, walks upon hours of walks. And everything you said and everything you stand for is me too. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:35] I just remember before walking in, I had this just urge to protect you from all these men, you know, And I just felt like they're doing it to you, but they're also doing it to me. And they, on some level, did it to our children, too, you know, and that was a really. A difficult part and a fear that was realized. It came to pass amidst the excommunication, highly public. Our children were completely exposed. So it was one of my fears come true.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] So why resign?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:34] I resigned because I was you in that I was part of it. When you spoke, I agreed with everything you said, you know, and so I knew that they didn't want me either. And I might have been less vocal, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:52] And so less of a threat in their eyes.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:55] But to me, it was a rejection of who I was.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:00] And at that point, I realized I hadn't really received spiritual sustenance for years there. And I just felt like it didn't reflect my values anymore. It didn't reflect who I was, and

Margi Dehlin [00:48:18] it didn't reflect what I wanted from my life anymore.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] I love you.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:33] You're a cutie.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:36] Because I cry and stuff. Because you're like Barbara Walters, because you're wise and stuff.

Coming Out to Family and Community

John Dehlin [00:48:46] How did you handle coming out to. Let's just start with the children.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] And this is, in our case, it wasn't just one moment. It was, you know, 12 years. But it's true. How did you handle at the various stages, coming out to the children?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:09] So I remember coming out to Anna. She was the first child we sat down and had a talk with, and it was really painful. She cried. And I knew from her personality that she really valued structure and stability and that she was probably, what, 12 or 13. She was in that time of life where, you know, you want to give that to a 12 or 13 year old, you want to give that to a teen as a parent, as much as you can. And so it was a very painful, painful thing to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:57] And I remember we kept it basic. I don't remember a lot of detail. I don't remember it being forceful, like trying to have her be convinced or, you know, kind of change her behavior or do anything different herself.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:15] But I feel like it was a mini death for her on a lot of levels. And it was really hard as a parent to sort of feel like you were taking away a bit of their childlike innocence and just sort of kind of, I don't know, naivety.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Any other. Any other descriptions of how we came out to our kids?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] I would say many, many, many conversations over years, constant connecting over it, constant having them look inside themselves, having them trying to figure out what they thought, what they believed, what they wanted for their lives, what they needed at that time of life. Did they need to go? Did they need the affiliation, what they felt? A lot of anxiety arose around them around death, around meaning, around identity, who they were and. And community, friends and community being a huge thing here in Logan, Utah. And so it' swhat can I say? It's a huge process that requires continual attention and connection and well worth it.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Worth it. Why?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:49] And well worth it.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] Was there something good about that process of opening up to the kids? What were the benefits of that?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:59] The benefits of that were moving. And I could talk about this later too, but moving from that conditional to unconditional love, it meant that on some level, what we were saying is, hey, this is where mom and dad are.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:15] We're gonna try some things because we think it'll be good for us and you can do the things that kind of make sense to you too. And to me, it showed this great restructuring of wherever you are, you're loved, wherever you stand, you have a place at our table and we'll respect you and we'll love you. Right? And that's a real switch and up to that point, my children have been the types of kids that would ask the would you love me? If questions where I felt like they were seeing where the reaches of my love extend. So when we took the sabbatical from church for Anna, it was, well, what if I got married in the temple?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:02] Well, what if I, you know, Clara, just different children would ask different, what if I'm gay? What if I committed a crime and was put in prison? It's just like, how far will your love go? And the answer is, love is never off the table. You have our love. You don't need to earn it. You don't need to do things, you know, to please us. There isn't some formula you have to follow. You just have it. You're worthy of it because you breathe and because you know you're ours. Not in an ownership way, but because we're each other's people.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:42] And that's what it means to be a family. And I just think that was a really important part and to go back again. It's when their voices became their own. All of a sudden, they weren't on this trajectory, on this path and formula. It was, guess what? And that's scary for a teenager because you're trying to figure out all sorts of things. But at the same time it was, what do you think? What do you want?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:08] You know, how are your friends? How does it feel? How do you, you know, how do you make sense of suffering in the world? What do you think about God? Does God allow it? Does God cause, you know, can God control that? These are all really, really large issues. And I feel like we kind of woke up their little voices inside too.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] So for us, coming out was a process, a year long process. And one of the main benefits of it was it seems like it's almost like lowering us to be more their peers instead of the authoritative figures telling them what to do and then encouraging them to discover what was important to them and to be able to have the joy of watching them figure things out for themselves. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:09] The idea is that you move from this empty vessel. Our kids are empty vessels too. You are filled with goodness. You came with it. You want to do good. You are moral by nature. You know, you want to do good. Our kids do. They want to do good.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:27] So our role is to support them in making those decisions and seeing things they may not see, in valuing experiences, in talking things through and connecting with them. That is our role now instead of trying to control their life and decide what their life will be. And tell them what their life should look like. It's what do you want? What makes you happy? What you know, where's your place in the sun?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:54] What brings you alive? And how can we incorporate that into your life? You know, so a lot of switches and it wasn't over a year. We began that when Anna was 12 or 13. And I believe her process, you know, was still a process up till the excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] So many years, many years. What about coming out to your mom and my parents and extended family, siblings and in laws, how was that?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:32] Well, it was easy because I never did it. No, I mean, on some level, right, with what you do, I'm sort of grouped with you. So I have not had to have the discussion of this is what I think, or things are different now on that sort of initial level, I have had to have difficult conversations with family member. Well, really my mom, only really my mother talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] Do you have any stories to tell there?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:11] So just amidst us pulling back and the excommunication letter and that process, you know, she had a lot of fear about, you know, our children, you know, and what was to become of them. And don't I want them to be married in the temple and don't I. And this is what's really important is I don't. I don't feel like all relationships, relationships deserve the same level of intimacy and care in talking about these things. There are some people who want to know first of all, and some people who really don't. They ask, they won't ask, or they ask and they really don't want to know.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:54] And you can usually feel that. And then there are people who you shouldn't trust with your. You know, they may want to know, but they don't. They don't deserve to have those vulnerable parts of you. So with my mom, I was actually in a state with her where I felt pretty good about our relationship. So I felt like I could speak openly. And so I just openly discussed. We're the same parents, we have the same values. Our intention and why we live those values are different. It's not for salvation or because we fear will be damned, but it's because they're our values and we believe in them inherently and we believe they build a meaningful, healthy life.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:46] And so I would just talk through each thing and really subtly, I listened more than I talked. And I feel like I assuaged fear. I tried to assuage fear as best as I could, and I didn't overly own it. I couldn't Overly own what she was going to do with what I said. But I did spend some time communicating with her. Hey, look, we still have all this in common.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:20] We're still the same. Because we really were in the fundamental ways of like what we valued, you know. And so really it was explaining nuance of, you know, without getting into history. The idea of we believe in unconditionally loving our children. We believe in having our children choose. And yes, if our children decide that they want to be in the church, we support and love them, you know, and we hope we've raised children who in the church wouldn't harm people, who wouldn't, you know, take part in harming people, but that they could use the good of the church for good in their lives and just sort of talking through some of those parts.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] How did your mom respond

Margi Dehlin [01:00:10] in the moment? She seemed to. She seemed, you know, at different times, so excommunication. I feel like the levels of anxiety were higher. It was, your children will be judged. Your children will be. Which was true. And so it was just more about holding it and talking through sort of how we were going to respond to that and what we felt about that and how unfortunate we felt like that was ourselves. So a lot of listening. There was a lot of listening, a lot of empathy, some clarifying as to like, well, here's a new value we have and it's that we don't anyway, we're less fear based. Right. We're more connection with our kids. We're more anyway. And so I feel like it was at times mixed and sometimes there were boundaries. If it got too negative or particularly about you or choices you are making, then I would boundary a little bit more.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] What do you mean by boundary?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:25] So if in my conversation, in conversation with her, if I'm out with her and she would maybe question media attention or question different things that you were doing or some of your intentions there. I would set a boundary. Meaning, mom, you know, I really don't want to talk about why John's doing what he's doing in this way.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:55] So if you want to change the subject, that's awesome about now. And she took that pretty well when I would boundary. Sometimes it was just letting off steam. I don't know why he does this. I don't know why, you know, doesn't he see it affects your private, that it affects you and your life? And I would say, hey mom, this is something between John and I and I appreciate your love for me and that's all we have today, you know, and let's. So that's what I mean about boundary. I tried to do it in a loving way, but I also sort of made a point to shut it down because at that point my energy was limited and I didn't have a whole lot extra to hold negativity about our situation or more fear or more anxiety.

John Dehlin [01:02:48] What about my siblings and parents coming out to them?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:56] I've never had a conversation with your parents or your siblings about my coming out or how I feel.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Why not?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:07] They've never asked,

John Dehlin [01:03:15] What about coming out to friends?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:21] So that's another thing I've never. I don't have a lot of experience with, unfortunately, because my close friends here are not LDs, so they don't really have. One of my friends has an awareness about kind of what's happened and what that means in sort of the Mormon context, but it hasn't been really part of my experience with friendships. And then some of my newer friendships, they know who I am now, and so it's not really an issue.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] So you didn't have any close friends who were believing members of the church that you had to come out to?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:04] I didn't. Now we had ward members. And I would just say my behavior was sort of my coming out. But if. But that was something that ebbed and flowed. And as I said, we were going at the time of the execution. The excommunication was really my coming out because on a level, me standing beside you and going through that process and then not going to church anymore was my language.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] So what did your leaving the church do to your relationship with people in the neighborhood?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:47] So I'll tell you something. It's a confession. Okay. So one of our favorite movies around Christmas is It's a Wonderful Life. And I think amidst the excommunication, there was part of me that thought, you know what? We've served in callings in this ward and been in this neighborhood for, like, you know, 8 or 10. 8 years. 10 years.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] 11 or 12 years.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:17] Okay. And all these relationships, teaching the children, teaching young women, John, teaching elders quorum, I had this sense that, like, oh, this isn't going to go down on our watch. Like, people know us people, they have that close connection. They have that personal experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:40] Like, they'll fight for us. They won't let this happen, you know, and it totally happened. The excommunication happened, and there was very little support. We had a few people in our neighborhood deliver bread, offer support. I'd probably say three or four. And it was beautiful. I mean, beautiful offerings of just and you could tell it was uncomfortable for them, that they felt uncomfortable, that was. That it was happening and, you know, kind of didn't know what to do. That was. And then the rest. It was like a ghost town for us in our neighborhood. Like, people would look away, just high level of discomfort, of avoidance.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:28] Right. And now I've noticed it's come back. People have started kind of talking a bit uncomfortably. But I come around a bit more lately where if I'm out, some will say hi or try and catch up. And so that there was something about that situation and their level of discomfort, maybe about having it go down and not knowing how to navigate that within a personal relationship that made it just go ghost town on us, where there was a time amidst that where between our children and their school and their friends, and then feeling like our very neighborhood, the soil where our family was planted, that it was all poisoned.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:24] It was all.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:25] You know, we had no neutral ground. And we put our house up for sale for a bit on account of that.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] So we all think that our ward community is kind of like an extended family. What did you learn about the true nature of the ward community after we left? What are your conclusions about what that really was?

Margi Dehlin [01:07:55] Mm. I think it was conditional love. It was based on, are you like me? Are you a threat to me? Do we believe the same? Do we want the same things? Do our behaviors and beliefs line up? Are we the same? And. And in that process, we were othered.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:19] And when you're identified as other, it becomes all of a sudden, a different thing and a scary thing. And so I've loved the process. It hasn't been easy, but I'll tell you, the end result is it's a self. It filters. It's clarifying, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:41] In the end, we thought we had this community, but we really didn't. In a pinch, you know, once we lost those things, that we needed to have the love, right? We didn't have the love anymore. But what we gained were all these other people that rose up in the occasion and showed their love and brought us meals and came to a vigil and, you know, and the true friends, you know, it's just. It's very clarifying to know who shows up, who understands what that means, who was at the vigil, who recognized that that was an event. And now those friendships that we have, they're on a firm foundation.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:22] They're based on who we are, not a set of practices and norms that we have to follow in order to belong to a club.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] So if you had to summarize kind of the do and don'ts of coming out. What advice would you give people in terms of coming out, just in general?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:48] Well, I'm gonna just put it out there that I am relatively inexperienced at that, that there was something very. I didn't have to do a lot of that personally. But I can tell you things that I've observed. And what I've observed is that if you can move from a conditional love perspective yourself to an unconditional one for your believing family and friends, and that you can actually accept differences as being okay. Right. I can tolerate and respect your beliefs. That's a really great foundation to just kind of start from and to live from there. I would say listening is really important. I'm just going to say, isn't that weird?

John Dehlin [01:10:46] You're the one coming out, but you're saying listening is one of the tips. Talk about that. Why is it your job to listen when it's you coming out?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:54] Well, if it's someone you really care about and want a relationship with, the thing that happens again is this self filter where they're gonna be people in your family who just judge you. And for them, I'd say no need to listen. Like if someone's coming after you in an aggressive way, I don't. My other thing I was gonna say is healthy boundarying. Healthy boundarying is a really important part in coming out. Because you need to know not only what you say and how much you say, but who really is gonna get it. Who gets this vulnerable, the true part of you and who really wants it.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:32] There's a lot of discernment in that. I also would say sort of, what's your intention? What's your intention in sharing? Right. Be really clear about why you want to do that. Because with the people that you really share, the vulnerable parts, they should deserve it. It should be a relationship where. Where it feels like it's worth it. They really want to know. And then I would say proceed carefully and slowly. No rush, no need to that. Less is more.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] Do you write some big letter and explain all the reasons? Do you go into depth?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:28] Some people emotionally really want that. Some people that's really helpful for them. I think it depends on the situation and it depends on the person. But I would say getting at the intention of why you're doing it and also showing a level of discernment as to who not wanting to change or control the other person, not trying to have them have to see your point of view.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:56] It should be hopefully an assuaging of, listen, we're still like 95% the same. Like this is how it is and there's this other stuff. But no, I don't want to change you. No, I'm not trying to convince you. And also assuaging like we're the same people. I appreciate your concern. I understand your concern and I want to tell you I don't feel like you have to be concerned and then live your truth because over time that's the thing that people see. They see your family continues to be a family that loves each other and shows up. They see that you haven't jumped off the deep end or gone, you know, with all the sort of myths of what it means to live and I mean, why you leave and what happens when you leave.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:46] And the truth is really, what is it in the pudding, like live your truth because that in the end is the biggest, you know, attesting to you.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] That's the real coming out, isn't it? How you live.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] How you live after. Right. That's insightful. You're a smart cookie. What's been the hardest, what have been the hardest parts about leaving? Disbelieving and. Or leaving?

Hardships After Leaving: Loss, Grief, and Change

Margi Dehlin [01:14:26] Um, so I'll be candid. I don't think my journey is necessarily typical, but my journey, leaving has brought those fears I mentioned earlier. I feel like I got them all

John Dehlin [01:14:54] talk about those.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:57] So. I definitely got the marital trauma. And the beauty of that is that.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:19] I was able to really, I think have insight into myself amidst that process where when you get married young, I think I went from sort of being someone's daughter to being someone's wife. I don't feel like I really did a lot of independent living on my own. And so ironically, through our, some of that, the challenges in our marriage, I walked out with a piece of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:50] I walked out with a piece of.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:52] I can envision my life on my own. I have a sense of what that would be like. And while I. It's not what I would choose right now, I will be okay if that's what my life ends up being. And that is a piece that is

Margi Dehlin [01:16:09] hard won and really valuable to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:17] But it was hard, hard one. And I think it's that idea of it transitioned our marriage from that kind of sleepy formula avoidant. Neither one of us were particularly self actualized into this place where we know each other's wounds, we know what they are now. And I feel like we really have come to a place of feeling like we can help in each other's healing of those Places that we have a role to play in that. And I feel like we are where before differences remained a source of anxiety. It's a place now where I feel like we're better at really celebrating the fact that we're different and that when we come together, that synergy is pretty. It's really something. And it's that idea of love being made real, you know, that sometimes the thing that wakes you up really hurts.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:37] It usually does, you know, and you wouldn't choose it, But it's probably the thing that saved it in the end, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] Saved what?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:57] Saved the marriage, saved our intimacy, woke

Margi Dehlin [01:18:02] us up to ourselves, to patterns, to

Margi Dehlin [01:18:06] what we fear, to what we avoid, and to the idea of what will it take? What does it mean for us to be together in a non enmeshment, non codependent scenario, but really in this emotionally

Margi Dehlin [01:18:26] independent, healthy, growth oriented, healing centered relationship with someone. And it also offered me the family suffering from the beginning of Mormon stories I had told John.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:48] My fear was that I didn't want our story to become their story, meaning the kids. Mm. That I wanted them to have their own space, to have their own. And I just. I feel like the excommunication made that really hard. And that was, for me, one of the most painful parts of it. And there's beauty that came from that, too. You know, there's the beauty of our family coming together, of the loyalty that came out of that, of the closeness that comes out of a unique circumstance like that, and the sort of self

Margi Dehlin [01:19:37] actualization they had to do. They had all that filtering with their relationships as teens, and they had all that listening to their inner voice, coping

Margi Dehlin [01:19:50] skills, learning how to cope with really painful feelings, how to navigate amidst feeling pain.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:57] That's real life.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:58] And I wish it on some level hadn't come in that form in that way at that time, but I'm not going to wish it away, because I look at him now and I think. They're really something. They're really compassionate beings, you know, and I feel really lucky to know them.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:30] And then the third is a death.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:38] That's come to me recently, too.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:44] And I mean, what to say about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:49] I feel like there's part of me that always loved being prepared. That's why I love being organized. And I just love the idea of that. And I think once my dad

Margi Dehlin [01:21:04] was

Margi Dehlin [01:21:04] diagnosed with Lewy Body, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, that we all knew, we knew where that was going. And I started reading and reading and reading memoirs about death less Less like

Margi Dehlin [01:21:19] the I've died and come back more like cancer stories. And I remember you asking me once

Margi Dehlin [01:21:27] on a walk, like, why do you think you're interested?

Margi Dehlin [01:21:31] Why do you think that that's a genre that you're drawn to?

Margi Dehlin [01:21:34] And I said, well, I feel like it's coming for us, Coming for us and also coming to people I love soon. And I feel like there's insight to be gained from people that are on that precipice, that walk, walk that walk, that I don't. I don't feel like I have to

Margi Dehlin [01:21:57] necessarily feel like I have to go

Margi Dehlin [01:21:59] through cancer to have some of that insight about how to live and how to love and what's important. And so. My dad, this past month, my mom texted me and said he'd been on hospice three times. And she just said, come over. The hospice worker doesn't think he has 48 hours. And so we went over, all of us.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:37] The kids were still at school. And

Margi Dehlin [01:22:42] I'm grateful I read all those books because. I really feel like. When I arrived, my dad was on the bed doing the trance, like, breathing. I don't know how many people have seen someone close to death, but the breathing that's labored, it's hard work.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:13] And the trance, where they're not really aware, they're not registering you in their eyes that you are there. But we spent the afternoon singing to my dad the lullabies he used to sing us. We sang to him and we massaged his feet.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:35] And my children showed up and they looked at death. They stared death in the face to love my dad. And I crawled in bed with him, and I was able to tell him that he was the best dad and he was the best husband and that he had saved and helped thousands of people in his life.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:08] And that I could see he was working really hard and that he could go and he could know that he was really loved. I said it all. And in the end, when he was done and I looked at his form on the bed, I knew we had all watched his last breath.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:37] And I knew.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:42] I was able to look at his form and realize that it wasn't the same anymore, that he was gone, but that I loved his form. And I felt his head and his face and his arms in his hands that played the piano and held my hand as a young girl and gave the best hugs. I felt it all, and I vowed to remember it all.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:19] It's just a strange thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:22] It's a mysterious thing. But I know. I know that I gave him the Best death I could. And I said it all and I laid it there, because that's what I had. That's what I knew that I had. The rest, I don't know, but that I do. And the next morning, I woke up and went for a hike and I spoke to him. It sounds totally cheesy. And I just said, I really hope that you're in love, Dad. I hope if it could be that you're with your sister and your parents, that you could be there. But I don't know that. But I know you lived. Everything you offered on this planet was in love. And I hope you're in love. And I can recognize that now, that hope, it's hope. That's what's real.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:26] And all I have left, all I

Margi Dehlin [01:26:29] can do is be grateful that I knew love like that in my life. And to take those parts of him that I cherished and to, like, really gather all the memories and all the good love he gave and to walk with it and try and integrate it and be it for the rest of my life, that's what I have. That's what I have left of my dad. That's real.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] What's it like losing someone that close to you without the support of religion, without the beliefs, without the community, without the structure that could be some people's worst nightmare, to face death without religion.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:30] All I can say is this.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:33] It was a privilege to watch him leave. It was a privilege. And it was a privilege to offer love as he left, the way he offered it here. And it's a relief to me. What I know is what I know, and that is that I was able to give all that I wanted. And I gave him everything I had. And I was there for.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:04] For hours until he was gone and.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] But you don't have the securities of the afterlife. You don't have the hope that you'll. The knowledge that you'll be together again. You may see him, but you may not see him.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:24] I have the hope for that. That's what I'll tell you. But I know what it is.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:27] I know it's hope. And that's part of being alive, right? That's our charge, whether we like it or not, is we will have loss. You know, we will lose those we love. And, yeah, no one's more aware than me than that first day. That first morning I woke up and thought, this is my first day not having my dad in my world. It just felt like the world should acknowledge it in some way. And then it was strangely comforting that it didn't acknowledge it.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:00] So, yeah, I'm still working through it.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:04] It's only a month out, and all I can say is I'm literally doing grief work. I am attending to it.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:12] It takes energy to work through loss, but loss is our charge. And there's part of me that believes

Margi Dehlin [01:29:20] that we're made for it.

John Dehlin [01:29:24] Do you wish you had the certainty of religious belief right now so that you could just say, oh, no worries. A couple years, I'll be with him? Do you wish you had that certainty?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:34] I wonder. There was an immediate. Like, there was a. What do I want to say? I felt an urgency in his death. I felt an urgency not just in his death, but in the past 10 years amidst my transitioning, to give it

Margi Dehlin [01:29:57] all here to take care of him, to meet him every Tuesday, to walk with him, to make him breakfast, to change his diaper, to take him to the bathroom, to remind him while I could of his life and what it meant to me. I'm not sure I would have at that level. Maybe I would have. I would like to think I would have. But there was an urgency in knowing that I didn't know and that I was gonna lay it all bare while I had him. And I did. I really did. And there is comfort in that. You know,

John Dehlin [01:30:39] Living for the present and not for the future. What have been the best parts about leaving?

The Unexpected Gifts of Life After Leaving

Margi Dehlin [01:30:56] All right, Bam. Okay, so here's the good part. I lived through my fears, and I get to be the person who's on the other side of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:17] And it's pretty great. It's pretty great to fear really big things, and then in the end, to

Margi Dehlin [01:31:23] realize I'm still alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:24] And you know what? The world is beautiful. You know, there is so much good, and it's never felt better to be alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:38] I feel empowered. I feel more connected to myself. I feel like my marriage is better. I feel like my family life is full and honest and dynamic and real, And I'm just amazed at the goodness

Margi Dehlin [01:32:07] of life on the other side.

John Dehlin [01:32:14] What about friendships?

Margi Dehlin [01:32:17] My friendships are. I feel like I have. And I've always been this way. I have a few select friends that run deep and true, and that's the way I like it. And I feel like the friendships I have really love me for who I am and really support me, and they're family to me. My friends are family to me.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] Other benefits?

Margi Dehlin [01:32:58] Better sex life.

John Dehlin [01:33:02] Why is that?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:03] Because I think when you're more connected to yourself and when you're able to kind of shed some of the shame messages and Some of the baggage, I think it leaves you freer to be intimate. And the love now, how I love, I feel like, is more connecting than ever and that that comes through. But I feel like there I have less weight to my life. I have less baggage to my life. I'm lighter, I travel lighter, and I have more focus, I have more clarity, and I know myself better, which allows me to make choices that make me feel more fulfilled. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] How are Sundays now?

Margi Dehlin [01:34:08] Beautiful. We usually have a great meal. I love having a Sabbath meal on Sundays. I love a good hike out in the mountains, all seasons. I love connecting with my kids. We usually will watch a show of some sort on Sunday and really connect with them. I love that it's a total connecting day. We make an effort to not do a lot of electronics like phones, and so it can also involve a nap or reading or. It's just the perfect combination of connecting and rest. And you know what? We can make it whatever we want. There are Sundays where we're like, let's go to Lava Hot Springs. Let's go to. And it's just. It's beautiful to be able to respond in the moment to what you feel like you need, whether it's rejuvenation, rest, or stimulation on a Sunday.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Has it changed your relationship with your kids for the better?

Margi Dehlin [01:35:17] I think so. So are you asking about how it's affected my relationship with kids, how it's changed? Yes, it has made it better because we have made numerous shifts from concepts like the conditional love to unconditional love, which children feel immediately.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:41] It is an energy that I feel like they feel. I feel like now we're really working on connection over control, really, when there's an issue or our children come to us or that we really try to talk with them and connect with them and hear what they're thinking. And then if we have concern or something to be heard, that we couch that for what it is. And not a control paradigm.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:11] I feel like we value experiences now. There's not a perfection sort of model. It's much more about experiences and learning. And sometimes mistakes are like, the best teachers ever. They're, like, priceless in life when they hit. And you're just ready to seize the wisdom that you have in that. I feel like I'm much more present based on a lot of the practices that I have done that I incorporated. Those new blocks that I put in my new tower have made me be a more compassionate, less anxious, less fearful, more present human on the planet.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:56] And I think when you're not out to control and you're not fearing, then you really can look at your children and feel amazement at who they are, that they're not appendages of you, but they really are their own unique people and it's really an honor to be part of their process.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] Do you feel like the kids are better off?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:26] I feel like our children are better off. I feel like, because that's the biggest

John Dehlin [01:37:35] fear people have is that what about the kids? Can they be healthy, happy, moral, strong?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:43] You know, so here's what I'd say to that. Brene Brown, I read an interview with her once where she talked about someone was asking her one of her great, like a big concern that she sees and she's I guess a professor at a university in Texas. And she was saying one of my biggest concerns is in graduate. She teaches graduate level classes. I have students come in that have never had to go through anything difficult. So they don't know how to navigate difficult things. They don't have the compassion or the, you know, the openness that comes from oftentimes feeling shaped by things that are beyond your circumstances. So when I'm feeling low, I just tell myself, well, aren't we marvelous? We have just offered them

Margi Dehlin [01:38:35] so many painful opportunities.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:37] No, no. But I do believe in this life, if you are a feeling connected human being, you need to have a good set of coping skills and an equal set of navigations skills. And as difficult as it is our children are, I feel like more connected to themselves and also working on their

Margi Dehlin [01:39:05] own

Margi Dehlin [01:39:07] coping stash, coping strategy stash and navigation sort of those experiences that teach them how to make choices for themselves from an empowered place. And that's really what it's about growing up. Honestly, I mean that's what I feel like is so necessary that with a heavy dose of worthiness.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] So overall life is better for you.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:45] Way better. No question. So much better.

John Dehlin [01:39:49] They say wickedness never was happiness, but I'm not wicked.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:55] Is this wicked? Do I look wicked?

Resources and Advice for Those Transitioning

John Dehlin [01:40:01] So to end this section, if you had to recommend resources for transitioning when someone's like in the process of going from belief to non belief to like coming out, to dealing with the kids and extended family, to contemplating leaving altogether, are there any resources you would point people to that have been helpful for you or that you think would be helpful for other people?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:31] Hmm. There are a lot of different directions I feel like I could go with this question. For now I'll just stick to a good friend. A good safe place for you to talk is really Important during transitioning. I think reassembling your tower is a really great thing in transitioning because it awakens that voice and allows you to provide for yourself in a really, I think, keen way. And it's this reminder of what's left. Like, a lot of things end up being left. You just get to decide where they go. Maybe they don't go foundationally. Maybe they go in a different spot.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:23] But.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:24] So if you're asking me personally, what helped me, okay, exercise helped me. Time in nature soothed me. Yoga and meditation centered me. Reading expanded my brain and allowed me to be open to different ideas that freed me. I think I get to name resources later. Do I get to name those?

John Dehlin [01:41:52] Yeah, but these are resources for transitioning. That's different from resources.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:56] So is this, like, I could list movies or I could list. Okay, so, like, some movies to try on is like Truman. Remember Truman Show. I think we really liked that. Tangled, the Village for older. An older audience.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:15] I think I still recommend meditation. I think it's. It's scientifically proven enough. Secular Buddhism. Noah Rashada. Buddhism was helpful to me. The secular, just sort of rethinking paradigms that I just accepted there were healthier ways for me to think about how to live and how to perceive suffering, because I'd always perceived suffering as like, punishment, that I was unworthy, that I had done something wrong, that if I followed things, I wouldn't have bad things happen to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:51] So I view meditation as a really, really helpful thing, and Noah does a good job with that. I also listen to calm.com for meditation. Those are a few of the things that come to mind. If you read and you like reading, there's a lot out there for you, and I can list some things later. Those are things that just come to mind A lot of. Here's what I'd say. Allow yourself space to grieve. Allow yourself time because you know you've lost something significant.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:29] And I think just giving yourself permission to feel that is really helpful and providing, even more than that, a second space to do that and a good dose of being gentle with yourself amidst that process.

Current Beliefs, Spirituality, and Life Without Religion

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 686

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Okay, so we've come to the third part of the interviews now, and they're about kind of where you are now. So it's not about the transition, it's about where you are now, how you think and feel now, and what you do now.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] It's about being the new year on the other side.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:27] Yeah. So it's. It's rebuilding the tower. You've built the tower. What does it look like?

John Dehlin [00:00:32] What does it look like? Yeah. So let's talk about your current beliefs. What are your beliefs about? God.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:39] Okay, Can I just tell you something in general about beliefs now? That's changed.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:44] I don't really. I hold beliefs really lightly. I'm not overly identified with beliefs now. At best, I have some, like, maybe some centering thoughts that I hold loosely. But that's something that's different about me.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Now, does that sounds really unstable for a religious person, like, you got nothing to hold to?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:10] I understand why it comes across that way. Here's my problem with a belief set is what I feel about beliefs is I can think a number of things in my head and it doesn't affect my behavior. For example, I can believe that Christ came and lived and died for me, but it doesn't necessarily inform how I treat a cashier right now. And that's why beliefs for me fall short. They feel grounding. They feel like a big part of identity, but really for me, they don't actually affect my behavior in ways that I would want.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:53] And so I actually choose now things loosely because I want to be open. That's another thing, is once I don't like the idea of feeling like I figured something out because then I'm not really open, it's kind of like a case closed. I know that. And I just don't really view truth or life that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:14] I like being open. I like having a curiosity. And I'm also really comfortable with mystery things that I really just don't understand. But I can be in awe of it and I can appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:28] Okay. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] So you hold beliefs loosely?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:33] Yep. Okay, so God. You said God. So I definitely don't believe in a God, like a man with a white beard. And I definitely don't feel like I would say I believe in God. So what I would say is I have moments where I like to believe in an organizing force or like a goodness that reigns that you could, like, tap into. Or sometimes I like that thought, but that's like a hope, and it comes and goes sometimes. I don't always feel that way. But it's something I like to feel. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:03:20] You like to feel that what?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:22] That there's like an organizing force for good that I can tap into or that might support an effort of mine to be a kind human being or to try and launch something new into the world that's gonna help people. But I am very aware that it's not necessarily true. It can't be known. It's like a hope. It's like, oh, I like that idea. I like that thought. But I wouldn't tell you. I believe in God.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] No?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Do you identify as atheist or agnostic?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:55] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Why not?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:57] It doesn't say what I do think or what I do. It doesn't really say anything proactive about my thoughts or my ideas, which I continue to hold loosely.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Do you miss having a loving heavenly father and mother that are looking down on you and blessing you and sprinkling blessing dust on you and waiting for you to return? Do you miss that?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:23] Can I tell you, I don't miss that because it's everywhere. There is enough love on this planet and in my life and in my relationships that I do not miss that.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Okay, how about Jesus?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:40] So my feeling about Jesus is that he most likely was a man that lived and he was an activist, a bit of a zealot.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] And.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:57] And that's what I feel about Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] What about died on the cross, resurrected son of God?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:04] I mean, I think there's some historical record that points to that, that he died on a cross, that he was. But I don't. The rest, I don't. Here's the thing. I love that story. I love parts about that story. But. But I don't believe that story to be true.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] So what about, like, him suffering for your sins so that you can be forgiven?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:28] So that was another part of a belief set that I couldn't wrap my brain around. So, no, I don't have a problem.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] What didn't you. What did you struggle to wrap your brain around?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:39] Why God had to have a son, like a pure, good son, have to, like, suffer for me and everyone else. Like, that was the plan. That's another thing where I'm like, that's the plan. That's the best we have. This poor soul has to go through all that. There's beauty in it. I love the idea of the divine coming to earth and I can see beauty. I'm open to that part. I just don't. For me, it's not real.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] The atonement.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:15] The atonement isn't real to me.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Cause it doesn't make sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:24] Because I don't believe I need to be atoned for anymore. I believe I was created to be. To make mistakes, to be imperfect. I was made this way. And I believe in my ultimate worthiness and goodness. And so I don't feel like the way I was created by a God, if there was one, would need to then be redeemed by another source of the. That's not what I think anymore.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] What about the Holy Ghost?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:06] Well, I mean, sometimes I feel like I'm impressed in certain ways. I don't believe in a Holy Ghost. I would never call it that. I would probably call it, like, sometimes I have intuition, and sometimes the intuition's right, and sometimes it's not. But I have impressions. Sometimes I think I view that in more of an evolutionary, biological sort of sort of way, probably, than like a supernatural way.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] What about the Bible?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:41] So I view the Bible kind of as like, literature, as this record that was written after history actually happened years later, where it's human beings grappling with the world around them in the best way they know how, and it reflects the culture and the people of the time. I don't find it tremendously inspiring. There are parts of the New Testament I like. Okay. But I've read Bible as literature. Actually took a class called Bible as Literature. So I have read the Bible. And I don't know, there are better books for me.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] What about the Book of Mormon?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] So Book of Mormon. Hmm. There are parts of the Book of Mormon I like. There are verses that I like. You know, for me, I think I found. What would I say, more resonant texts to offer me companionship on my way. That's what I'll say.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Like what? Give me some.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:58] Oh, I love. Oh, there are so many. Can I bring them all down?

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Just pick five.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:06] I love the Conscious Parent. I love the Seeker's Guide or Broken Open by Elizabeth Lesser. I love. Some of the books by Katrina Kennison, later her later memoirs. I love Secular Buddhism podcast. I love. Oh, there are so many. And I know I'm forgetting. I love the minimal. Yeah. And this may come up in the end, but there are a lot of good sort of books out there that Harville Hendrix with regard to relationships, his

John Dehlin [00:09:46] getting the love you want.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:47] Getting the love you want. John Gottman on relationships. Yeah. Eckhart Tolle, Power of now. I really love that with the Oprah class. I like it more with the Oprah class than on its own.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] You mean a new Earth? Not the power of now.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:03] Oh, sorry. New Earth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Would you say these are your scriptures now or.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:09] Well, I'd say they're foundational. I'd say they offered me. I don't love them in full. I have discernment. So some things resonate and some things don't. But I am now this conglomerate of ideas that resonate or don't. And the key now is that these texts change the way I experience the present moment, how I live my relationships with people that I love, and whether I feel that I am being open to growth in my own life.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] What about Joseph Smith?

Margi Dehlin [00:10:48] So I feel like Joseph Smith was really a talented, charismatic youth, you know, a force. A force for sure. Beyond that, I feel like history. It's too hard to read into much more than that.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Are you mad at him?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:12] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Do you think he's evil?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:16] I don't think. I don't really look at people as, like, evil or not evil. So, no, I would not say he's evil. There was clearly something about him that allowed, that made people willing to leave that the comfort of their own home and communities and sort of take a leap of faith. That's all I can say.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] But was there anything dangerous or scary or sad about him?

Margi Dehlin [00:11:50] I feel like in the end, I view him as tragic, succumbing to many of the things that people of that sort of like, kind of. That kind of personality and talent and, let's say, vision succumb to. I don't think he is. I don't find him rare in history, that type of personality or.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] What about the idea of a Satan?

Margi Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah, I'm not. Not big on that either. The supernatural? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:41] No.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] What are your thoughts about attending a church now? Trying to find a different church, true church, whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:53] So, yeah, I know it works for people, for some people, they really enjoy that and they find a better place. For me, I think one of my epiphanies about myself is that an organized community is not something that's essential for me. And so I don't. I don't. I think going into another structure of some sort isn't something that is appealing to me personally. My new church would be all these loves that I have that enrich my life and make me feel alive and compassionate and aware and doing those on a regular basis.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] There's this idea of filling the holes and trading up where religion filled all these holes for you, and then those holes emptied up when you had your faith transition, and now you have to look at how to replace them. So let's go through each hole and talk about how you filled it. So the first one is morality. We talked about law of chastity, word of wisdom, just what morality meant to you then, what are your thoughts about those things now and just what morality is to you now in general and what it's rooted in.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:37] I guess my morality, I haven't really thought about this. I would probably say my morality would be based on respect and kindness to myself and respect and kindness to others, and fairness. So doing no harm to others, doing no harm to myself. Choosing behaviors that. Enrich and, you know, send love and goodness, you know, into the, into the world. That's my morality.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] What if someone says, well, that's just golden rule, it's what Jesus taught. You're just fine parroting Jesus.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:25] Awesome. Then I'd say, that's great. And that's what I mean about beliefs. For me, morality is about how do I love and treat people in the world, how do I care about the planet? Because caring about the planet helps treat people well. It will help people live, have a place to exist. So these are things. And I look for ways that resonate with me to affect my behavior now. And so my morality would be, I don't want to harm myself, I have no wish to do that. And I want to be good to myself, actually. I want to have good relationships and I want to offer that to everyone I meet. You know, I want to offer love to them. I want to offer them goodness and honesty and respect. And so my behavior would fall in line with that.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] And if somebody says, well, what do you base it on? You don't base it on a religion, you don't base it on God, you're just kind of making it up or just it's.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:27] And I would say, I don't know if you had an identity piece there, but my. Okay, well that falls in line with my identity piece now. So I don't know if you want me to jump to that, but I don't feel like I need this super imposed structure to have me feel that I have worth or goodness. I feel that for whatever reason, my upbringing or my privileged life or the Mormon, it could be my Mormon upbringing up until now. I don't know. I'm open. But what I'd say is my identity now is, is not a deficit paradigm. I am worthy now as I am. I am filled with goodness and want to do good. And I choose to grow. I want to grow during my time on this planet. You know, that's my identity now. I am Those things on my own.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] What about premarital sex now? What about sexual fidelity? What about drinking and drugs and all those things that Mormonism said were bad? How do you look at matters of sexuality and matters of drugs and alcohol, et cetera now?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:02] Okay, could we break those down then? I guess so. So you said sexuality like infidelity, because I'm not pregnant right now.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Masturbation, premarital sex.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:16] So premarital sex with regard to my daughters, is it evil? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Is it bad?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:20] Okay, so that is a walk that I navigate with them. And I do so with their dreams and their desires for their life in the palm of my hand, with what I know and what I want for them, and it depends on where they are in relationship. I no longer feel like premarital sex is unilaterally bad. I feel like lessons in intimacy.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:52] You know, our experiences can be good experiences. Now education, information is a huge part of that. Empowerment is a huge part of that. So I say educate, empower daughters. Talk about their dreams and what they want for their lives. Talk about the whole situation, risks and benefits, and be a confidant, someone who can talk through and support. But ultimately, here's the irony.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:29] It was never up to us. If our daughters wanted to have premarital sex, they would. Right? The best way, the best thing we have is our connection with them. That they believe they're inherently worthy of good things in their life, that their dreams are achievable, that they're connected with themselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:51] They don't want to disrespect themselves. They're not going to engage in risky behavior because they respect themselves too much for it. And they're educated and they know what is at risk. And having said all that, okay, it's a tricky world.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:12] But I want my daughter to know that if she does have premarital sex or things go awry within that paradigm and she gets pregnant or she. Right. That life is still for the taking and that it didn't touch her worth one bit.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] What keeps you from sleeping around, cheating on your husband, etc.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:35] That you're a mate. Like what? I love intimacy. I was made for it. I'm just all about companionship and going deep and committing hard. It's just in my makeup. I love traveling that terrain long and deep and there's a lot of work to be done. I can speak that about myself, intimacy wise. And I do better focused and I do better within feeling safe. And the way I feel safe is with someone that I have known for years and years and Years where I feel like our goals and our intentions are in sync.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] What about alcohol?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:31] That's a bridge I haven't crossed yet for myself. And I'm gonna be honest. So this would be true for drugs and alcohol. It's just. I am a simplifier. That's why I love the minimalists. There's something I view life as tricky.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:49] I view. I'm a kind of a. I feel like sometimes I think we're all. But I'm kind of a deep feeler. And so I have enough in my world that I'm sorting through that. For me, it's just something I haven't added yet. I haven't had the desire to add a new component with that. And I'm also really comfortable and really happy with that level of, you know, kind of engagement with it. Now. Coffee.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:25] Coffee. You know what? Coffee has its place, especially dessert coffee. Like, I am not minimalist in that way. It's just like salted caramel mocha cream, whipped cream, the caramel drizzle, the salt on top. Seriously, I'm a total dessert coffee nut.

Facing Mortality and Finding Meaning Outside the Church

John Dehlin [00:22:54] How do you now deal with the idea that we die? That you may not exist after you die, that you may not see your children or your parents or your loved ones again? Just this sort of nihilistic sort of inclination that some people have that's just. Life's not worth living. If we're all going to die and it ends at death, how do you deal with that?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:21] Okay, well, I feel like I kind of. Just because my dad's death happened just a month ago, that I sort of. I kind of covered that earlier without knowing this was coming. But this is what I would say.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:33] What I would say with that is loss is inarguable. It's undeniable. And I'm not gonna do that. I surrender to that fact. I accept that fact as a human on this planet. And the only option I have is to love well now, because my dad died over years.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:00] It was a long goodbye. But we don't know. We don't know how long we have. So what I would say is our charge is to love in the present, not now, and live like it's all we have. And that is my great offering to death. That's all I've got, is if there is a way to stare down death and to acknowledge that it exists, it is to live with everything we have right now. And so. And then the other thing I'd say is when it comes to, like, loved ones or I bow to the mystery of it, I have no idea.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:47] And it is something else. I think birth offers that sort of stillness or sacredness, if you want to say. And death offers that too. Seeing someone's last breath offers that as well. And I would love to think of my dad living on.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:09] That would thrill me to no end. But for now, I am his best chance. My children are his best chance. My siblings, my mother, people who were touched by him, that in some way were changed by him. That is how he continues to live in the world, you know, and that is something that I can embrace and that I can know is real. And so that is how my dad is immortal to me.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] What about you? Your mortality?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:52] And. I think, strangely, going through the process with my dad, I think it allows me to be more present to that. It didn't make me more fearful. I think it made me less fearful because I was able to see it for what it was.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:20] And it's undeniable, the power of it and the inevitability of it. And so, you know, luckily, I'll tell you this. I think we have plenty of practice for death in daily life, because I feel like there is plenty of loss to go around. And that may sound depressing, but I don't mean it depressing. I mean, you know, we.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:51] Our children grow up, things change. We lose our health at different times. We may lose a knee that once we could run. Now we can't run because we have an injury. We lose friends, we lose. Their loss abounds us. And I view that as a practice for the ultimate loss and deaths that come our way, how we surrender to those little deaths, I think it has everything to do with how we, in the end, will surrender to the largest one of all, which is our own.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] So are you scared to die?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:33] I am not scared to die. I do have some feelings around controlling how I die. Just because I've seen someone die in a very long, drawn out, undignified way that I love the idea of being able to hightail it to Oregon or to have some choices. That's what I'll say. How I die.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Well, what about the thought of you never existing again? That someday you're going to close your eyes and Margi will be no more?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:05] That informs me and how I live, that I really want to live. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] For me, why live if you're just going to die?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:14] Because it's what I have. There is no, like, what's the alternative?

John Dehlin [00:28:19] But if life's hard, it's painful suffering, why not just end it? If you don't believe in life after death.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:27] Oh, I just. For me, I just feel like there is so much beauty and so much goodness to be had. So much joy, so much learning, so much experience. We get to give to each other, we get to connect, we get to love. There's just so much here. And the value maybe isn't in it being forever. Like, what if that actually isn't the value of it? What if the value of it is that it's here right now for the taking and that's what we've got? I don't know. I'm highly philosophical.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] What if you never see your kids again?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:06] What do you mean? What if there will be a time that I may not see my kids again? And living with that makes me draw close to them and love them up and just engage in the present moment in a way that matters versus taking it all for granted. Because we think it goes on and on and on. It informs the way I feel like we love, we connect and. And the respect with which we treat time.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] So what is the meaning of life now for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:41] So this is something I reflected on. Well, I've been reflecting on it for the past few years. So my daughter Maya came to me at one point, and we were in a conversation, and she was saying how she viewed me as kind of like a martyr type of. And it was really.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:07] It was good in a lot of ways because I felt like I was able to actually connect with her on some. This was a few years ago. So ideas that she had about me, about maybe not choosing things in my life or, like, being this sacrificer.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:24] And I was able to really tell her, you know, as she was weighing her dreams and all these big things she wants to do. And I remember telling her, maya, I have lived my life the way I've wanted to. The minute I had Anna, I all, you know, things changed for me, and mothering became really central to what I wanted to do. So. So this is what I'd say to love. Well, that's my number one. To love those who are closest to me. Well, I want, when I die, for them to be like, wow, her love was just beyond all to me. I can say that about my dad.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:13] And it's one of the best gifts ever. I want to love well. I want to ease suffering where I can. And hopefully I want to grow. I want to be open to growing in my life, to not living in fear and to committing to sort of this path of hopefully doing the work.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] So there are all sorts of studies that being social community is a really integral part of overall health and wellness and well being. Something that I've noticed is that you're, I've always known you're a little bit more introverted than me and that you don't really, you don't seem to really miss the community, the church, or feel like you need to replace it. So talk about the role that community plays in your life now and whether you think you're better off or you're missing something by not having this sort of close knit community that you are connected with now.

Friendships, Community, and Raising Children Without Religion

Margi Dehlin [00:32:29] I think people are clearly, people are really different this way. And for me, my community centers around close friends, close friendships, and we choose each other and we love each other and we support each other. And I find for me, I do better with less than more. It's just the way I feel like I'm made. So my friends are my community. We have a couple families in town there in my community that we get together with and I tap into a larger community. Like I do go to Oasis on occasion, especially if there's a speaker that's presenting material or information on something that I'm really interested in, then I can go and I can enjoy that. But I think my community is intimacy based. It's my close friendships.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Some would argue that the amazingness of your family owes, owes a lot of itself to the Mormon community that shaped and influenced your family and so now, and that extended our family and now that we have a good lifestyle, we have a lot of health and happiness and well being. You know, some would say it's a luxury that we can just sort of say we don't need community. But really it was community that, that blessed and nurtured us all the way along. And think about all the people out there that are lonely and sad or sick and needy and don't have community. Talk about all that.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:32] Can I tell you something? That somebody sounds a lot like John de Lynn. That voice sounds really familiar. You know, I think we all have different gifts. And here is what I'd say to that. I bloom where I'm planted. I am definitely aware of those around me and sort of feeling for their needs. Here's what I'll tell you. My makeup is that when I shoot so broad, I have less energy for those near. And so because I'm introverted, where I have the energy, that's where my focus goes first. And for those who are more wired for community, I would say I would leave it up to you to build community because you value it. You know, and. And I would lend my hand to the right project if I believed in it. Like Mormon transitions.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] So you talked about this last segment, but just talk. You know, a lot of people say, well, I'll lose all my friends if I, you know, leave the church. How do you. What are friendships like for you now?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:01] So I think due to the public nature of how things went down, it was. It was very clarifying. I do think, if. Here's the deal, I find value in having friends where I do not have to filter. That's really comforting for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:24] But I find a lot of women and men like a variety of friends, and you don't have to have a no filter friend in every friend. Right? You can have a fun friend. You can have. There are different roles friendships can play, and I'm totally open to that.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:44] And so what I would say to that is, I wouldn't throw away a friendship. If there's a friendship with someone who you've been friends with for a very long time, I don't know that I would necessarily cut that off or end that prematurely. I think conversations. I've had conversations with a couple neighbors who talked to me openly, and I could tell they were worried in our relationship.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:13] And I just talked to them about, hey, listen, do you feel like we could be different and that that could be safe and that I could respect you and that you could respect me without having to change the other and that that could somehow work, you know? And I think if it's at that level of a friendship, it's a really great place to start to introduce and to grow a relationship that becomes more real. But what I would tell you is for those that drop away or who judge you, like, kind of prematurely without knowing the situation just based on you not attending church or things being that that process, I have found, creates space.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:02] And it may take time, but my experience is, is that the friendships that come to you after that are much more authentic and enriching. So hold tight. It's coming to you.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] What about your friendships now? How would you describe that?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:23] My friendships now are. I love it because I feel like I don't waste time. So my friendships are tried. I feel like, again, they're no filter, they're supportive, they make me a better person. I'm inspired by my friends. I laugh with my friends, and I feel I have better friends now. Fewer, but better than I ever did before.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] What is spirituality like for you now? What does it mean and how do you practice it? Or do you practice it?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:11] So spirituality to Me now is, who am I in the present moment? How am I showing up? Am I showing up with a positive or negative sort of energy? To me, that is my ultimate spirituality. And then I feel like I have practices that help me refine that to a place that I feel like reflects me in the best way.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:42] So that is my ultimate spirituality, that right there. And I do feel like I hold. I hold some. What would I say? They're not like mantras. They're like, I'll give you an example, like, life is wise. I hold that as something that I consider, for example, when things are difficult or uncertain.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:07] And I realize fully that I hold it loosely because I'm in a privileged. I live a privileged life on this globe. So I have sort of a privileged state of being able to say that. But I do it less because I think it's true. I say it more because I like how I respond in my life when I live that way. I like who I am.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:34] And so that's something that I hold at different times. I also hold this paradigm of, like, grow or die, where in different difficult moments, I think, am I shrinking? Am I avoidant? Am I growing, or am I dying here?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:51] And that helps me sometimes, you know, do the brave thing, do the uncomfortable thing. I also have another paradigm I hold of birth and death that I think I went into a little bit earlier, where when I'm suffering or mourning a loss of something, I look for a birth of something that I find that they're oftentimes intertwined. And if I look for that birth, then it helps me have this balance of, yes, there's loss in life, and I'm also giving birth to things all the time, and that those two things are actually intertwined.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] What would you say your spiritual practices are now?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:36] My spiritual practices would probably. I can tell you things that I meditate every day. I love getting out in nature. I find it really connecting and peaceful. I view my relationships as my spiritual ground, my practice, because it is my close relationships that teach me where my wounds are or what is left to be done, to be sort of healed in me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:14] They're sort of evidence, if you will. So relationships are a key part of that practice for me and how I love within those. I also. For me, I mean, cooking healthy food helps keep my energy up, which allows. I love reading again, exposure to ideas. Helps me kind of grow. I also would say, you know, should I say nature?

Margi Dehlin [00:42:47] I think I mentioned that earlier, getting outside. I think writing is a good thing for me. It helps me process things. Those are some of my. I do yoga. Yoga is another. I'd say spiritual practice. Writing is good for me to kind of get a sense of where I am.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] What if somebody says, that's not spirituality? Spirituality is like going to the temple. It's like singing a hymn. It's like. Like going to church and hearing a sermon. That's not spirituality. Those are just living.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:20] I love that. I'd say maybe that's spirituality to you. If it feels good to you. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] No, but what if they're saying to you, you don't have spirituality?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:28] I'd say different strokes for different folks. I'd say, this is what happy looks like for me. This is what, like, honestly, it's feeding me. And I'm glad you have something that feeds you too.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] Can you raise a healthy, happy family without religion?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:51] Like, we're trying. I mean, family is, again, it is like the. It is the ground for which we practice spirituality. So I just feel like now I view our family life as this great place to practice loving well and to observe what divides us as human beings, what gets in the way. And I do believe once you start connecting versus controlling, it really is a big shift. I think your kids, our kids have sensed it right away. It makes them feel more comfortable, feel they share all sorts of things. Oftentimes it just. The agenda is lost, so we can just kind of be together.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] Are you missing without religion? Do you miss the cohesion? Sort of like, you know, the Mormon Church would say it's all about families and it's all about bringing the family together, so. Well, you don't have that now. So how do you keep your family together?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:03] Well, we still have. So we still have family traditions and family rituals, grounding rituals. We do. So some of those would be family dinner. Most nights, I really. I light candles. I like to make it special. I like for us to connect there. We in the evening try to do something after dinner. A lot of nights, whether it's watching something, playing a game, we put our kids to bed every night. I do their backs.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] What do you mean, do their backs?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:34] Sorry. Scratch their backs or massage them or I rub their feet. But I try to be part of that winding down. I find that they share their musings, change at the end of day as they become kind of softer and more reflective, things slow down. I love that time. I kiss them and love them before they sleep. And in the mornings we wake up and we make them breakfast every morning and use that time to connect with them and send them off with. At Least a little bit of love before they head to their various schools. The truth is there are infinite possibilities for connection, infinite ways.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:16] And you know, that's the fun part, that's the creative part of rebuilding. It's like, what do you love? What does your family love? We take hikes a lot together. We build on those common things. We read books together. I love reading books with my kids out loud or we share shows or whatever. It looks like the irony is where connection is, I feel like there's a sacred space.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] So can you have a strong, vibrant, healthy, close knit family without religion?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:57] I think it's easier in many ways because your relationships become real and authentic when control and obedience aren't the goal.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] An unconditional love.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:13] And unconditional love is the nest that they get to rest their heads.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] So now talk about raising children specifically. I think a lot of parents think it's a scary world out there. There's drugs, there's, you know, alcohol, there's pregnancies, STIs, STDs, there's unemployment and sadness and misery. And how do you raise healthy, moral, connected children, you know, without. Without religion? How do you keep them from becoming drug addicts? How do you keep them from becoming pregnant or getting diseases? How do you have them value their lives and be moral people and healthy and productive without, you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. How do you raise healthy kids without religion?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:09] Yeah, I think it's a formidable question. It's why I love Shefali Zaberry and I read a ton of books on. Because I'm curious about that. Honestly, what I would tell you is I feel like connection's the answer as well as.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:27] Because when you connect with your child instead of control, a magical thing happens and that is that they're allowed to connect to themselves for real when there's no judgment or control at the helm. And so I think that's a really important place to start because it allows for them to be sad, it allows for them to be angry, it allows for them to make mistakes and you'll actually have that information as opposed to if they fear you or if they are ashamed, you actually have that information. And what I say to my children all the time is, you know, the reason why I like you to feel like you can tell me the truth is so that I can be with you.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:16] If I don't have that information of what you're struggling with or what you've done, then you're alone in that. You're alone. You're by yourself. And I would love to just be there with you so you're not alone and so that you don't have to hold it alone. And so I feel like the connection allows for you to have information and to influence. And that's what you lose when your children are feeling like they have to obey you or please you or work for your love or. And I think that's a pretty great place to start. I would add a lot of great family culture in there.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:01] Choose a family culture, adopt practices, you know, talk about, talk about, and let them share in creating that for them. We actually, for a lot of Sundays, for a lot of times, when various kids were going to church and others, we would have conversations about what a Sunday should look like, the different components. And some it would be church, but we would also create things for our family, whether it was a family dinner or a hike after church. But there were things that we were able to. And I think that's a great way to go.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:35] You know, what else would I say with regard to that? Yeah, I think a village is important on some level. I've found that we've been able to create a bit of a village with our kids through some families in town and at different times. But the wrong village is awful.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:01] You know, a shaming village, a judgmental village, or a village that doesn't reflect your values, I could do without. So I'd rather have less and have greater integrity than have more and feel like I'm always trying to counteract all the different elements. And so.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:20] But this really goes back to the paradigm shift of the no deficit paradigm. You know, I don't view my children as being untrustworthy. I don't view them as lacking goodness. I view them as. That is their inherent way of being. They want to be good, they want to love well. They want to be good to other people. And so then it's my job to support that and try and create an environment where they're able to do that and able to. And I would just say, in addition to that, it also has to do with having them feel like they have things they love in their life.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:05] That's something I feel like we work hard to do, is try to have them as they're connecting with themselves. What do you love? What makes you really feel alive? Let's try a bunch of things. And the journey is in the trying. Don't fear. Like, you have to glom onto any one thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:22] This is like books, and books are written about this type of thing. But I think it really starts with connection and creating, you know, a positive, unconditional love paradigm for your kids to thrive and, and make no mistake, unconditional love doesn't mean no boundaries. It doesn't mean the house is a mess and no one does anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:56] I definitely feel like there is a structure to our home and we still value things like responsibility or work or different things like that.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] So what if your kids become alcoholics or drug addicts or prostitutes or get pregnant? You know, what if? How will you not know that? It's because you didn't leave your religion.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:27] So I think this taps into something about being alive. Just the fragility of being alive and vulnerability about being alive. I don't think you will know that. And I don't think. Here's what I'll tell you. I feel like a child that's drug addicted is coping with something. I feel like it's a cry, a voice to be recognized, a voice to be heard. And so that's what I would say about that. I would tune in, I'd offer support. It's going to be a long road. I don't believe in, like, you know, you taking responsibility for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:09] I do believe in teaching kids from a young age good coping skills, how to deal with painful feelings and not judging negative feelings as bad and trying to be too surfacey. So everything seems great. And I do believe in navigation skills because I think it's really challenging to be a teen and young adult and human on the planet now. And so. But the answer with drug addiction is the same answer. It's connection. It's still connection. It's still, I love you, you are worthy. And sometimes, unfortunately, life experiences, it takes a while to add up to change. It takes a while to add up to an insight.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] But if you have a kid addicted to drugs or commits suicide or gets pregnant, people are going to say, well, of course that happened.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:06] They left the church and that happens in the church. I think it's a human condition. I think it signifies something across the board. I don't. For me.

John Dehlin [00:55:17] What if they say it's more likely to happen when you're not in the church?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:20] Well, they can say whatever they want.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] No, I mean, if you're taught in the church never to drink and never to, you know, have sex premaritally and that there's a God watching. Well, that's a real motivator for the kids. And if you take that away from your kids, why would they want to be, you know, good? They would just go into all sorts of Bad things.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:39] Yeah. I think overall I view kids as not, you know, I don't think there's any way to live without suffering and to make this pretty perfect package around parenting. I have a great dose of compassion for any parent and I have in my own family, we have had drug addiction and it is no picnic in the church. In the church and out of the church. It's just across the. And for me, what I would say is it's about connection, it's about patience. It's about time. There is no one right way to do it.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] But is it more likely to happen out of the choose than in?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:27] No. I feel like it's. Here's what I feel. I feel like as human beings we need to be equipped to live our own lives. And what that means is making choices, being in touch with ourselves and what makes us happy. If, if our kids grow up being in touch with what they love and what they don't love and they feel empowered to build a life they want. They're way less likely to be a drug addicted than if they're shamed, if they're criticized, if they're said here is the one way and you don't fit the mold. And it's going to feel like this if you don't fit the mold.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:05] And by the way, we only love you under these conditions. That to me feels like that is way more risky. I would definitely choose the connected, honest. I'm able to influence and it's still difficult, but I have an authentic human in front of me that feels safe to confide in me.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] How do you look at charity and service opportunities to serve now without the church? Do you, do you even think about that now? Does that matter to you and how do you think about it and what do you do about it?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:43] Sure. So like tithing money. I still believe in giving back that way. And so the difference is we kind of do a near and far. I try to balance, you know, things like water, clean water, which is a global problem, with things like local things or someone I know that really needs some help.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] So do you still believe in giving?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:10] I still believe in giving back. I think it's important. I still believe in so my service, if you want to call it that. I feel like with what you do, I buckle down and I am on some more hours as a mom and those are extra hours of that. That is service. It's the way I have contributed to Mormon stories in my own way. I also talk you through a lot of things. I'm a confidant I even think I'm an advisor of sorts to you. But I really have been tending my dad on a level and being a support to my mom for the last 10 years. But my ultimate service will always be to my family first.

Reflections on Identity, Growth, and No Regrets

John Dehlin [00:58:59] It's not necessarily a foregone conclusion that you leave the church and you're happy, right? I imagine there are people who leave the church and maybe end up being less happy. So do you feel like you've traded up in joy versus down? And what do you think the secrets or the keys are to making things better after you leave versus worse?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:27] Hmm. I feel like I have definitely traded up, no question. And I feel like I've had some challenging situations in the past five years, but I still feel like I've traded up. How to navigate it. So it would be so. So it's more likely that that would be so.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:56] Oh, I think. I think taking the time, not getting in a reactive state, I think to leaving and feeling impressed to. Do too much too soon. I like. I think our transition out was so gentle because it was so long.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:23] In some ways it was kind of brutal at the end. But I'd say go slowly, go gently. I'd say give yourself time and space to connect to yourself and what you need. Again, I'd say a safe person to. To talk to is invaluable and really tap into what it means for you to connect and what it means for you to feel joy and purpose in your life. And I find when you ask those questions, when you're willing to really ask those questions and really give yourself time to both grieve and give birth to something new, it's a really empowering, enriching experience that brings a lot of fulfillment with it.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] There are certain stereotypes that people perpetuate about those who leave the church. And I'm going to just give you some of the stereotypes and sort of accuse you of you and just ask you to comment as to whether or not you think they apply to you. Okay, so people leave the church because they wanted to sin. Is that true for you?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:47] Well, no.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] Why not? I mean, what's your response? Margi left the church because she wanted to sin.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:00] I actually feel like I was rejected out of the church. So I don't feel like I just left. I feel like this is what I did.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] But you resigned.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:09] I moved toward my values, and my values are based on truth and goodness and love and not on sin. But I get really. It's very difficult for me to get back into these words like sin or it's very hard for me to, like, connect to. Because really, what is it? What does it all mean? I don't know. I drink coffee. Sue me.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] All right. They leave the church because they were offended. You were offended at how they treated John, so you left the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:45] I left because I went toward my values. I left because my values were goodness and love and growth and all these things, and I failed to find them in my local chapel.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] But you were offended.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:03] I really wasn't offended. I didn't always have positive experiences, but I don't always have positive experiences in my marriage. And I don't leave that. You know what? I'm not after positive experiences. What I'm after is growth and feeling goodness and feeling like, you know, I'm on this path with other people and isn't it exciting? And I feel inspired by what I see.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] All right, how about this one? People leave the church, are angry.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:35] I'm very angry. I'm really angry. I've got a lot of anger. A lot of anger.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Are you being sarcastic?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] Why?

Margi Dehlin [01:03:48] No, I don't feel angry. I feel happy. I feel. I feel. Emboldened.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Another stereotype is they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. So somebody says, oh, here Margi is. She's doing this video. She can't just go on and live a good life. She has to go back and tear down the church and disparage people who continue believing in it. What would you respond to that?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:23] Okay, here's my response to a common theme in all of these questions. Here's what I would say. For every person who leaves these feelings or these ideas that you're putting forth, I think they're part of the experience. It is okay to feel angry. If people treat you not so great. That's okay. It's kind of part of the process.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:46] So I think these are natural feelings to have. You know, I just don't feel that they capture the root. The root of why people leave. And I also don't view any of these things that you're naturally saying as an inherently bad. I think there's a time when people leave that they may, say, still care about the church, and still it's part of their paradigm, and it's hard to let go. And hopefully, as they move through their process and allow things to flow right, and move forward, they'll let it go when they are ready to let it go. But I just don't feel like it's helpful to.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:30] This reminds me of being put back in a box where there's certain behaviors that are okay, certain feelings that are okay, and other feelings that aren't. So in my experience, these are never the root of why people leave.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] In what ways are you the same person now that you were before? Just list them off.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:53] Well, I love the idea of honesty. It's a value of mine. Compassion. I love being of service to other people, of feeling like there's something in my making that could ease the suffering of someone else in doing that. I love frugality. I love the idea of not wasting, of using my resources wisely. I love the idea of forgiveness that oftentimes through my, you know, not being aware of my own actions. I hurt people. And I want to be able to. To make amends there and to do better. I think that's part of my process, to be able to vocalize that and to be able to forgive myself and realize that I learned something there that was valuable.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:41] I believe in my family, the value of family and the value of my marriage. Those are things that I'm completely devoted to. I believe in growth. There's so many things I still believe, believe in, that I believed in before. They're mine, though now they're part of my tower because I defined what that looked like and why I felt like they were important and my intention in doing them. And it's not out of fear for my own salvation or anything like that. It's because I honestly have.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:20] I find value in living a life with these things in them. My life is richer and healthier. And my tower is my own making. It is mine. It reflects me. And, you know, for so many years, I wanted to be this artist. I took all these art classes because I think artists are really cool, you know, and I really wasn't very talented at anything with regard to, like, visual arts or ceramics or. And then I've realized my art is my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:55] That is the way that I am going to be the best artist ever. The way I craft it, the way I choose it, and my tower is like that. It reflects me.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] How are you different now than before?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:12] I would hope I'm more open now. I definitely feel like I am more connected to myself. I feel like my connections with both you, my husband, and my children are higher quality connections. I feel like I'm more intimate with both my life and in my relationships with other people. I feel that I am more empowered. I feel like I know myself better. I know what I'm capable of. I feel like I have more compassion for people who suffer or feel alone. I Feel more one with people on this planet. In spite of differences, I feel. I feel more free to live my life as I choose it.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] Any tips on maintaining positive mental health?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:38] Well, here's what I would say. I feel like I've listed kind of some things, like between. I know exercise has been actually scientifically proven to relieve mild to moderate forms of depression. I feel like I've given some things that were helpful to me and so those would probably also work here. So like exercise.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:07] Meditation really was helpful to me. Nature, getting out in nature regularly, I think that's also a scientifically kind of proven thing. Meditation is also scientifically. I find get inspired by something. I mean, feeling inspired is. Laughter is super helpful as you're grieving, just to be able to tap into that spontaneous joy.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:32] A good friend again, a safe person to talk to. I think room and space to grieve. I think it's important as fast as our culture is, to honestly take time to process your own experiences, how you feel about them.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:52] Good boundaries help with mental health. You end up feeling less resentful, less used by people. If you find that you're feeling stuck for too long, that grief or sadness is sticky, it doesn't move through you, and that you're heavy, you're walking around heavy. Get help and help someone. Sometimes I view depression as like, you have a pile up on the shelves, there's too much to go through by yourself and you need some help with getting all those things unpacked. And there's no reason to do it alone.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] What are the hardest parts now?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:38] I think the hardest part for me now is oftentimes I feel like a snail without a shell. So I feel like being in the church gave a. It may have been a false sense of security, but it was a shell of some sort. It gave the feeling of a shell. And now I have no doubt that I really don't have a shell, other than my own resilience and sort of determination to. To go on. But there is that feeling sometimes of feeling vulnerable to the world, to feeling deeply about things and having to sit with that, not having some magic. Pray it away, read your scriptures. It's just, hmm. This is kind of part of what it means to be human. And in the end it ends up making us more compassionate.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] Is there anything you miss being in the church?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:48] Hmm, Nope.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] That sounds too simple.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:09] Tempt me. You have options.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] You don't miss anything. You don't miss anything.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:16] The lessons, the hymns. I have songs I love to sing more with my family. And we get to dance to them. We get to have dance parties as we do it. Like, if you want to talk about, like, the ceremonial, the things where your family gathers and you're all together, we have that too. We go for hikes. It's in different form, but we have it, and it resonates more deeply.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:42] The three hours on Sunday? Nope. Every time I'm hiking and I see people go to church, I'm like, bless ya, but I'm in the right place. Like, I mean, what else? The structure for youth. The structure for youth things.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:58] To me, that was an expensive paradigm for our girls. It ended up we're having to really look at some shame issues and some things around that. So for us, if we had had a different experience, maybe. But for me, I feel like what we're able to do is try to foster authentic friendships and even more really good family relationships and cousin relationships where we can. So I can make cinnamon rolls anytime.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] What about the garments temple?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:38] Do you miss the garments? Do you miss me in garments?

John Dehlin [01:14:47] All right, here's a good one. What could the church do to get you back? What would they have to do?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:57] Not gonna happen.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] I mean, apologize for things, fix things, change things.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:03] I'm not really interested. First of all, I don't. I don't even dwell there anymore. So that question is. It feels so retroactive. It feels like I would, like, be going back in order to even think about that. And so I don't know if that would be different if I was more community wired, if that could be different for me. But I think because that piece isn't a large part of my makeup, that, for me, I'm just not even looking toward anything organized in that way.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] Any regrets.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:50] About the process of transitioning, how you did it? I think my closest thing to coming to that would be how the excommunication went down. But here's the thing. We didn't have a lot of control about that, and so it's not really mine. Like, I would have had to change how. How that all works. It's not really up to me.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] What was hard about the way it went down.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:45] I just found it to be very brutal. It's not so much for you and I. I feel like that it was hard, but as adults, we sort of weathered that, and quite frankly, they were our choices. But for my children, there are times when I wish we could have been in another state, another area for that to happen, where they could have had some neutral ground, a place to rest their head.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] So maybe you regret that we Got excommunicated in such a public way that caused a lot of pain and suffering

Margi Dehlin [01:17:27] on the kids in Logan, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] Why'd we have to move to Logan?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:32] Maybe that. And I'm sure there's some good part to that in time, but that's still a little bit hard for me to. To swallow at times

John Dehlin [01:17:45] real quickly. What are the best parts now?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:51] I feel like the best part now is waking up feeling completely like your life is yours and with all that that means, and. Not feeling immune from pain, like realizing that pain is going to come your way, but also realizing you're made for it and you know you're made for this.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] What does that mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:18:29] You're made for struggle. We're wired for struggle. We're wired for handling pain. And I think one of the best parts of my journey is coming out on the other side of all those things I feared and realizing, you know, it's liberating. So what makes life good isn't that it's sheer. It's only happy, that there are only pleasurable feelings and emotions attached to your life. What makes it so great is that it's real and it's yours and you're alive and you're awake. You're awake to your own life.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Any surprises?

Margi Dehlin [01:19:28] You mean being kind of here on the other side of it? Any surprises? I'm surprised at how good it feels. I'm surprised at, you know, how much beauty and just loveliness there is in people, in life, in the world. I find it staggering.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] When you think back now to your beliefs and your testimony, what do you think they were based on now? I mean, a lot of people say, well, at the time, I thought it was the Holy Ghost. I thought. At the time, I thought it was the spirit. Or now, looking back, do you reinterpret that? Do you make it naturalistic instead of divine? What your beliefs were, what your testimony was based on?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:26] So I view my testimony as being based on something emotional.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] The old one.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:30] The old one. Oh, you mean now or. Yeah, the old one. So like Jonathan Haidt, Height. Hate.

John Dehlin [01:20:36] Height.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] Height argues that oftentimes when we feel rational or what we feel rationally is actually something that we have felt emotionally first, and then we use rational thoughts to sort of back up what we're feeling. And I really view, you know, the church came into my life and gave me a family.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:59] It gave me a family culture that didn't exist like that before. That's pretty hard to rival in the way of sort of hitting you emotionally where you live. I Also feel like with many of the beliefs I sort of integrated some of those beliefs into my personality and into my story and thereby embedded them into my emotional sense story.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:29] I'm thinking of like the perfectionism and you know, this, this sort of drive to be good. I so wanted to be good and perfect and chosen. So I think the extent to which I emotionally made those beliefs, I integrated those into my story, I think it makes sense that what that I, I lived it for so long in spite of, you know, the difficulties it presented and the dissonance I felt rationally and in my lived experience.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] Sure. What resources do you recommend for people living a life after religion? What's been most helpful to you? What would you recommend others to look into?

Recommended Resources and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [01:22:29] Okay, well the first thing I'd say is like look inside yourself and find that for yourself. That's the whole point of transitioning is that you're not listening to people anymore. So take all this with a grain of salt, honestly. But I think I would probably say beyond that or if you're having, you want ideas or you're struggling to find your own again. My resources are secular Buddhism, a good meditation practice. I do like 10 to 15 minutes. I make it really doable, do it every day. It's not like going to change your, like you're not going to just see in color or something where you saw black and white.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:20] But I just find that it builds a little bit of a buffer between my response time to things. I actually, I choose more. I'm less reactive to situations if that makes sense. It also makes me less anxious, which is always good nature. I feel like all these things are pretty science backed get out in nature. And just the thing about nature is you never think about like changing a tree. Tree is just beautiful its own merit. It relaxes your brain, makes you feel good. Do it with a friend and it's even better. A safe friend and it's even better.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:58] Find someone safe to talk to. Try to orient yourself toward growth and in ways that watch documentaries, watch or read books, whatever way you feel inspired or get information or have ideas about things you want to try in your life.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:13] I think that's a really great, a great thing. Sleep well. A lot of things are tied to sleep. Eat well, love well. Really. Maybe consider looking at your relationships as a really great place to start your spiritual work. It's just right where you live, right where you are. No need to go anywhere, you know those that you're with every day and maybe slow down a little and allow yourself to feel Some pleasure from time to time.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] Last one. Bear your testimony. Whatever you believe in. This is your final goodbye statement.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:57] Really?

John Dehlin [01:24:58] Yep. I believe, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:01] But I hold beliefs loosely. So this is like, honestly, what are you doing to me, Shanalyn? I believe that good love feels good. I believe that we're all worthy of our space here on the planet and it doesn't have to be earned or worked for.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:32] I believe we're made for growth. I feel like we're built for it as a species where we mutate and change and adapt to circumstances all the time. I feel like we're here to love, and it's one of the toughest tasks there is to love. Well, I believe that we're always sort of either going in the direction of growing or dying, becoming bigger or smaller through how we react to things or choose things in our lives.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:10] I like to consider life as wise, that we can choose to respond in our lives like life was kind of made for us and that these things are kind of for our good and we could at least approach them that way. And it ends up with, I think, more positive. A more positive journey, not to mention results.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:37] I feel like we're wired for struggle and that we should be unafraid and not feel punished because we're struggling. It just means we're human and we're here and we're alive. But I think we're made for it and that we should feel fully equipped to meet what's at hand.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:55] And I believe in the power of acceptance, that accepting what is is the best hope we have of responding in a way that's true to us. And, oh, my last one is life is beautiful. There's beauty everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] What about when it's messy?

Margi Dehlin [01:27:27] There's beauty in that, too.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] You sure? What about when it hurts

Margi Dehlin [01:27:38] on the other side of the hurt? I feel like there's more compassion for ourselves. There's more self knowledge. That's what awaits us at the end, you know, is as deep as we hurt, is as deep as someday we'll feel, hopefully joy.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] You feel joy?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:00] Totally. Moments. It's all about the moments.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] All right, Margi Dehlin, thank you for joining us today. How do you feel?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:12] I feel a little tired.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] You're fantastic. I'm gonna come kiss you one more.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:22] I will allow that

John Dehlin [01:28:26] love you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.