Welcome and Episode Introduction

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1492

Carah Burrell [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to a new episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for the day, Carah Burrell. And I am really actually excited. This is kind of a interview that I wanted to do and I got ready. So I am probably the most excited, equally as excited with our guest. So I'm really excited to introduce to you McKay, Spartacus Johnson. Hey, McKay.

McKay Johnson [00:00:26] Holly.

Carah Burrell [00:00:26] Either you might recognize him if you're on TikTok. His handle is Spartacus, underscore, unchanged. Right. So not only is he just. He's one of my favorite humans generally. Like, to be honest, I have.

McKay Johnson [00:00:38] It's gonna make me blush already.

Carah Burrell [00:00:42] So McKay's really funny and he has a lot of not just like funny, comedic tiktoks that he makes, but also really passionate, talking about the things that he's experienced on his mission, going through a divorce and being raised in a very kind of orthodox mortal Mormon household in Eagle Mountain. Yeah, Eagle Mountain, Utah as well. So he has a lot of really interesting themes and is an interesting person and all over, just kind of a gem of a human being that I wanted to get in this chair to come in here.

McKay Johnson [00:01:11] Stop.

Carah Burrell [00:01:11] So, yes, keep going, keep going. And I will. So McKay and I have been kind of like buds for a little while now, and any day where I get to just like hang out and we get a chat, go through your story, I think I'm going to enjoy it and I think the Mormon stories audience will as well. So we're going to be talking about kind of, I guess, your Nephi complex that your parents maybe kind of gave you your life, if you want kind of an overview. He is a sexual assault survivor and that's definitely something that men deal with as well as women. And so I wanted to give McKay the opportunity to talk about the trauma that he's experienced in his life and maybe some of the stigmas and some of the things that have been said to you, especially talking about it so publicly on TikTok and responding to a lot of the. The uncomfortable situations that, that you've been put through and giving a voice to victims that maybe have gone through similar things, whether male or female. So we're going to deal with some heavy topics today for sure, but don't let that scare you. We're also going to try to keep this light hearted and fun and conversational as well. And what else am I missing? McKay, how's that intro?

McKay Johnson [00:02:16] I think that's. That's a great intro. I think you hit the nail on the head. So explicit language, warning at some points

Carah Burrell [00:02:22] yeah, we always kind of want to do a. What's the word?

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Content warning.

Carah Burrell [00:02:25] Content warning at the beginning. Who's voice over there? Is it John Dehlin? Oh, hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Hi, guys. How's it going?

Carah Burrell [00:02:32] Don't forget, John isn't far away. It's not just the Carah show. Absolutely not at all.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] So, no, today is the Carah show and I am Carah, just supporting Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:02:44] John and I have talked about how we want to be able to tell as many stories and there's only so many that John can do. So I feel like I'm kind of developing my own style for guests that I want to invite on. And John will definitely be riding sidecar, taking care of the kind of like show notes and sound and switchboard and stuffs and adding commentary, which I always love from John Dean, who doesn't. So we'll kind of make this. Yeah. Conversational. Don't forget, John will still be here and I invite your commentary. Thanks for joining. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] My pleasure, Carah. It's fun to be your sidekick.

Carah Burrell [00:03:19] Yeah. So we tried to decide at the beginning about maybe a content warning or like a rating system because we try

John Dehlin [00:03:26] and keep Mormon stories friendly to believers and newbies, but we also wanted to keep it real.

Carah Burrell [00:03:32] Exactly. So we're definitely going to get into some hard and serious topics and the systemic problems with the church and the things that McKay's been through. And I never want to like muzzle people and have them need to be put in a box any more than they already were. So. So I want to. I want to. Yeah, I want to give McKay, like the license to tell his story exactly as he feels comfortable. While at the. We probably will have some kind of content warning, maybe like a PG13. We'll probably end up swearing. I feel like if the passion, like somebody. You feel like you need to say something like that's. That's totally okay with me. So upfront, if you're listening to this in the minivan with your kids, just letting you know, we might throw out a couple swear words here and there. But overall this will be along the same lines of a lot of Mormon stories. Long format interviews going start to finish. So McKay's also really talented musician and drummer and all around a fabulous human being. So, John, do you have anything else you wanted to add?

John Dehlin [00:04:32] No, just that I'm super excited to, you know, for you to be leading interviews and McKay, I'm really happy you're here.

McKay Johnson [00:04:39] Thank you. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] You do a lot of cool stuff on TikTok and my son's A drummer. I love music, and I'm just excited for your story, and I'm really grateful for your willingness to talk about things like surviving sexual abuse as a man, because, you know, maybe men aren't always comfortable being that vulnerable.

McKay Johnson [00:04:59] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] So I really. I really. I appreciate your willingness to do that.

McKay Johnson [00:05:03] Thank you, John.

Carah Burrell [00:05:05] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And if we get into some really heavy topics, we always like to kind of model consent and what we want to talk about. So McKay and I talked before we even started about things that are, like, within the scope of what's appropriate. And he said he's an open book, so we're going to try to keep this respectful and just try to do this in a way that people who have experienced similar things feel validated, that they should be able to feel like something happened to them and that it isn't their fault. And. Yeah, just giving validation. I know. McKay, you spoke to me earlier, before we started, about how helpful it has been for people that have had similar stories reaching out to you through Tik Tok. And if Mormon stories can just be another medium where people feel a connection to your story, like, I think that's a really important part of this that I think we're going to get into.

McKay Johnson [00:06:03] 100%.

Carah Burrell [00:06:04] Right on.

McKay Johnson [00:06:05] I'm happy to share my story as much as it helps people.

Carah Burrell [00:06:10] Okay. Well, yeah, so thank you so much for coming in, and I think we're ready to get started into McKay Johnson's Mormon story. All right. You feeling ready?

McKay Johnson [00:06:19] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:06:20] Okay, let's go. So. All right. I was already looking at his outline, and I was like, born in Ottawa. Get out of here. You're not even American. Just kidding. I was like, I had no idea. Oh, my gosh. So we have a. We have a Canadian in our midst.

Growing Up Canadian in a Mormon Family

McKay Johnson [00:06:35] Yeah. Yeah. Well, dual citizen, technically, but, yes, I was born in Canada, originally in Ottawa, which, for those who don't know, is the Canadian national capital. We talked about this earlier, right?

Carah Burrell [00:06:46] There will be a quiz later.

McKay Johnson [00:06:48] Yeah, there will. You all will be quizzed. But, yeah, no, there's a lot of people who don't know that, which surprises me. But, yeah. So, born in Ottawa and born to a pretty orthodox LDS family. My parents. My dad is from a little town called Tremont in Utah. My mom is from southern Alberta, which is, you know, Canadian. Utah. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:07:12] And were they Both, like, raised LDs?

McKay Johnson [00:07:14] Yes, both raised LDs on my dad's side, like, at least through his dad, like, seventh generation, back to really contemporaries of Joseph Smith. His mom, however, my grandma Johnson, was a convert at like the age of 8 or 9, so kind of convert asterisk, but anyways. And then my mom had some, I think some ancestors that go back to about pioneer times, but also a lot on her dad's side that were only like one generation back. But for me, yeah, long story short, multi generational Mormon family. My parents met at byu classic, dated, fell in love there, got married, had my two older brothers while they were still living in Provo. And then for my dad's work, they moved to Ontario, Canada, Ottawa specifically. Right. About six years before I was born. So I was born in 96, so they would have moved there in 1990, maybe 1989. And yeah, then I was born and lived there till about the age of six. And I think even in that early time, I definitely had some experiences relating to Mormonism that would probably be pertinent.

Carah Burrell [00:08:38] Yeah. What do you remember from your early years then?

John Dehlin [00:08:42] So,

McKay Johnson [00:08:45] I mean, I remember in general being a happy kid and not, not really questioning during that time, especially, you know, I was so young, the church or anything, just thinking like, oh, this is the way things are. I do remember discovering masturbation at about the age of four. And I do remember messaging around that vaguely, even at that young of an age, you know, that that was like, bad and whatnot. But I remember also feeling already at that young age kind of attracted to women or at least, or at very least curious about, you know, what women were like, you know, and starting at like, like age of four, like, interesting. I had a little girlfriend at that age. Like my parents somewhere stashed away, have pictures of us, like, kissing, and they just thought, oh, it's so cute and innocent. But, like, from what I remember, at least it was, you know, at age 4 or 5, I had already discovered masturbation and, you know, already knew that I liked women and kind of had some of those maybe preliminary sexual feelings. And that definitely becomes more and more pertinent with my story as I got older.

Sexual Messaging in Mormon Childhood and Youth

Carah Burrell [00:10:02] So what were the messages starting even as a child? Were they just from your parents, like, catching you or like a lot of people even in church early, like before they're even interviewed to be baptized? Do you remember having any kind of, like, conversations or messaging?

McKay Johnson [00:10:19] So from that early? I don't remember any conversations. I bet there were some that happened. I do. What I do remember is kind of almost unspoken messaging where, for example, we'd go to see a movie or rent a movie, rent a movie From Blockbuster, the 90s, you know, at home to watch. And even in scenes where Two characters were just kissing, like fully clothed kissing. My parents would cover my eyes and like disclaimer, before I go any further, I'm definitely not here to badmouth my parents. They're wonderful people who are doing the best, best they could with what they had, I think. And they also definitely were shaped by some traumatic experiences in their, in their life and early in their marriage, which I'm not really going to go into like very in depth, but you know, traumatic experiences surrounding sexuality for them, which I think kind of shaped the way that they raised me and raised, you know, all my siblings in general. Right. So yeah, they would cover my eyes even for like fully clothed characters kissing and be like kissing is yucky. You know, they'd kind of give me that messaging in a way that a four year old or five year old, I guess would understand, picks up on and definitely picks up on. Yeah. So from an early age, you know, kissing and anything sexual, even though at that age I didn't yet know what sex was, was bad, but that drove this kind of intense curiosity in me from an early age. And hell, I remember in, in kindergarten, so when I was five, starting kindergarten, we had, we had this French teacher that would come in every day because it's, you know, Canada, you learn French. Right. And from what I remember, attractive woman, probably in her 20s or 30s and you know, would wear these kind of low cut blouses and I would kind of be curious, like what's it like under there? You know, and then we had like under there, my parents had some science books at home that had like you know, just drawings of the human body, like male and female. And at some point either they or one of my older brothers like scribbled out like drew over with like dark permanent marker over those like just scientific like non erotic diagrams because you can't see a naked human, you know, that's, that's bad. So that was, there was definitely strong messaging regarding that. Now that we're talking about it, it's easier to kind of remember for sure all of that.

Carah Burrell [00:12:57] Yeah. And like we know how the psychology, like when you make the forbidden fruit

McKay Johnson [00:13:02] like that, you want to, you want to partake of it, you want to

Carah Burrell [00:13:04] partake of it even more. It's like it usually has the backfire effect of what your parents are usually trying to do. Yeah, yeah. Or just Mormon culture in general. The more you say this is naughty, this is bad, the more enticing it is, the more you're like, I have to get to the bottom of what this is now.

McKay Johnson [00:13:20] Yep, exactly. Exactly. So that was. Those, I guess, are some of the very early themes of my Mormon story.

Carah Burrell [00:13:30] Assuming you got baptized at 8.

McKay Johnson [00:13:33] Yeah. So that would have been after we moved to Utah.

Carah Burrell [00:13:35] Yeah, you'd moved to Utah. You'd moved to Eagle Mountain by that point and doing the standard Utah County Mormon boy thing. Probably having all kinds of messages around BYU fandom or. Yeah, tell me.

McKay Johnson [00:13:47] Yeah, yeah. So since my parents met at BYU and I mean, my whole, like, extended family, especially on my dad's side, you know, all BYU fans, we'd watch BYU football games from an early age, and that was kind of a thing that me and my dad had together was, you know, we loved watching football together. And eventually I ended up playing little league football for several years, and he was even one of my coaches

Carah Burrell [00:14:09] for.

McKay Johnson [00:14:09] For a year there. And so, you know, I feel like in general, we had a pretty good relationship. But. Yeah. So after 9 11, we moved to Utah. I think partially because of 911 actually caused some problems with my dad's business back East. But also another big part of it was that they wanted to be closer to family. And most of our extended family, especially on my dad's side, is here in Utah. So we moved and started growing up for the rest of my child and teen years in Eagle Mountain, Utah, Utah county, and all that messaging, Mormon messaging, you know, kind of came full swing a lot harder. Right. So baptized at 8. I chose to be baptized at 8. Yeah. And around the age of 11, you know, started going through puberty and those things that I discovered, like, way earlier when I was five or six with masturbation, and eventually pornography started kicking in a lot, a lot harder. Your hormones are going to raging, raging hormones, and a lot of messaging, you know, and I feel like, especially at that age is when that the very clear messaging about porn is bad, masturbation is bad, sex is bad became a lot stronger and a lot more clear, like in church lessons. So it wasn't, you know, just my parents or relatives or whatever it was, you know, church leaders and giving all those Sunday school lessons, you know, chewed gum and stuff. I don't know if I ever got that specific analogy, but I know for sure I got something. Something similar to that was the same effect of, you know, if you have sex before marriage, basically you're chewed gum or something like that. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:16:10] So, yeah, that, like, the worst sin next to murder that you could ever commit is breaking the law of chastity. And you were talking to a group of, like, young men who pretty much all they're thinking about is how they want to break the law of chastity. And then all they're thinking about is how, like, they'll be separated from their families if they do. And it causes a lot of torment, Right, for, like, young men who are pulled within this, this church with, like, being a normal young man who masturbates. Like, there's literally normal as anything else. Like, there's babies in utero that masturbate. Like. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a normal part of human life, but when you have this strong messaging that it's forbidden, the temptation is always there. It's like an amusement park that walks around with you.

McKay Johnson [00:16:57] Yep, that's a good way to put it. So, so, yeah, I mean, and that created kind of, you know, this vicious cycle, which I'm still deconstructing to this day of, of guilt and shame. And so I. I'm trying to remember here. I think my first, first experience with, like, actual legitimate, like, hardcore pornography would have been, I think, when I was. Yeah, I was 12 years old in seventh grade. And we back in. I don't know how the kids do it now, but back in my day,

Carah Burrell [00:17:31] which is so funny because to me, you're like a youngin. Because I was born in the 80s. Yeah, you're born in the 90s. So I'm like, whatever. And then somebody's looking at me to be like, born in the 80s. I was born in the 50s or whatever. Anyway, go on. So you're a youngin. This is how they did it. Yeah, but I mean, how they access the pornographies.

McKay Johnson [00:17:47] Yeah, well, so, so, so 2025 now. I feel like things in public schools have changed a lot even since I graduated high school, like eight years ago or seven years ago or whatever. And so they would take us to computer lab. So I don't know if that's still a thing or if just all classrooms, like, have computers now. But in any case, we had that time there and, like, it was under supervision and whatnot, but they were having us do some sort of search for an assignment. And so we were like, doing Google image image searches for something. I was not looking for anything, you know, smutty or whatever, but one of the images that popped up was like, some porn. And I was like, you know, immediately clicked out of it. And then it kind of kept replaying. And I was like, okay, well, I kind of want to, you know, see what that's all about and stuff. And that eventually led to, you know, kind of the whole clandestine, like on the computer at home, like, is anybody looking?

Carah Burrell [00:18:45] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:18:46] Kind of check this out. And you know, that kind of progressed to a point where I was definitely 12 years old at this point, still in seventh grade. And one night it was like the first time I watched like a full on like pornographic scene. And I felt because of all the messaging surrounding that, and for me growing up, like, even watching two characters kissing in a movie was bad. Like, like I felt really terrible inside and like kind of started crying and I like closed it down and like thought like, I am going to rot in hell for all eternity. Or, you know, this is like, this is the worst possible thing. Right? It's like you said, it's taught that it's the sin next to murder, which is so damaging that they teach that. But yeah, so eventually I couldn't even bring myself to tell my parents because of how shamed I knew I would be. And that that's the kind of the culture that I had been brought up in. Right. And so what I ended up doing was I didn't tell them. Instead I just like didn't take the sacrament the next day at church because I had seen both of my brothers, like not take the sacrament before and my parents had said things like, oh, they sinned. Or I think they even straight up told me that one of my brothers had looked at porn or something. They were like, don't do that because then you'll end up like your brothers, which is kind of a horrible thing.

Carah Burrell [00:20:21] Your Nephi complex.

McKay Johnson [00:20:22] Yeah, this is where Nephi complex comes in. For those who are wondering, what in the hell was Carah talking about when she said that? Because I'm the youngest of four siblings, so two older brothers and an older sister who I all of whom I love very much. And both of my older brothers were a bit more on the rebellious side, shall we say, especially in their teen years, especially my oldest brother. And by rebellious, I think that really just means more like breaking out of the Mormonism box.

Carah Burrell [00:20:58] Right. I was about to say I was like rebellious. Conservative religion, that's very. Has fundame, like adherence to one set of principles and rules. Yeah, go on.

McKay Johnson [00:21:12] Yeah, but well, so. And anyways, not to. Not to distract too much, but I guess to kind of tie that in and make a long story short, my oldest brother, by the time he was 18, he like knew he was done with the church, didn't want anything to do with it, and he didn't want to serve a mission either. So, like, my parents basically kicked him out of the house and sent him to live with an aunt and uncle for a few months. And I think their hope with that was that he would see the light or whatever and you know, he didn't. And so he eventually came back to Utah and did a semester of college and whatnot and then was just living on his own as a young adult and you know, never looked back, never went to church again. And he had gotten into things during his time in high school that were rebellious or at very least considered rebellious by Mormon conservative Christian standards. Right?

Carah Burrell [00:22:02] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:22:03] And brother, some similarities for sure, although he did like serve a mission and whatnot, but has since kind of stepped back from the church. And I don't mean to speak for him or them or you know, their stories or whatever, but so just because of that, my parents, my dad especially, because my dad is very, very like gung ho with the church and very scriptural and all about. I mean, my dad sings in tabcats, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The artist formerly known as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Now it's the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square. Tab Cats. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:22:46] So is it. Oh, okay, great. And your dad is a member of.

McKay Johnson [00:22:50] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:22:51] So he is as gung ho as it gets.

McKay Johnson [00:22:53] Yeah, pretty much. I mean, so. So yeah, he's, he's a very gung ho, kind of missionary minded guy. And so I think when he saw as the years went on my two older brothers kind of being more rebellious and whatnot, he thought it would be good to, I think by the time I was 15 or 16, call me Nephi occasionally and just be like, I'm so proud of you. You're so righteous and whatnot. And on the one hand, that's what every kid craves, right? Like your parents approval. Hearing your parents say I'm proud of you is like a really meaningful thing. Right. On the other hand, and I know he didn't intend this, but it was damaging messaging and started over the years to create this almost impossible standard to live up to because as everyone who's been in Mormonism knows, like the character of Nephi from the Book of Mormon is this super righteous young prophet warrior guy, you know, and there's all those paintings of him and he's like super shredded and just badass in a Mormon Jesus following way. Right. And yeah, so you haven't shook that off.

Carah Burrell [00:24:09] You're still ripped and you're still shredded. You're still looking like Jesus. No, just kidding. Like you haven't, you haven't gotten rid of your Nephi complex just Kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think what you're describing is like super common amongst. We talk about this on like, the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis, a different podcast we're doing with John's wife Margi and stuff. And the. Just the idea that you have to give up when you leave the church or whatever situation you find yourself in. Like, if the way that you received parental love, if they're your parents love language, is to call you Nephi, you know, like to give that up and say, like, the way that you relate to me, the way that you're proud of me is now I don't know how to relate to you. I don't know how to have you be proud of me because I don't share the same beliefs as you. Like, there's a whole other second morning of it being downgraded now that that's not the way that you'll ever be seen in their eyes anymore. And like, that's a whole separate heartbreak to have to deal with. We'll talk about that later. But yes, the point is, is like, you're saying that you're. The way that your brothers acted kind of forced you into a corner now with the way that your parents kind of pigeoned you, pinholed you into upholding, that you now have a responsibility to not be like them. Is that kind of what you're saying?

McKay Johnson [00:25:22] Yeah, no, no, exactly. 100%. I mean, there were several, there were several times growing up, all through growing up, especially in my teen years where, you know, my, my dad or I think my mom even a few times would clearly, would say something very clearly, like, especially if I had done something wrong, like looked at pornography or steady dating a girl and getting too close or whatever, they'd be like, you don't want to end up like, you know, one of your brothers, like, like Dan or Drew in, in one way or another. And I, you know, again, I know that they, they said and did those things out of love and were like, doing the best they could with what they had. But systems, not people, right? They're definitely products of a broken system in, in their own way. And they, you know, I will say to their credit, they've come a long way in the past couple decades with, with their parenting and just, I guess like general character development that everyone goes through in life. I mean, I know I'm by no means some perfect. I may look like Jesus kids, but I'm not him. Like, so, yeah, one of my favorite

Carah Burrell [00:26:31] quotes that I heard once, it was like written on a bathroom wall or something that said that when you're a kid, you don't realize that you're also watching your parents grow up.

McKay Johnson [00:26:41] Yes. Oh, and it's so true. It's so true. And like, I've really come to realize that a lot more strongly probably in the past five or so years, probably that I've. Since I've been in my 20s and living on my own as an adult. So. So yeah. Anyways, that's kind of a little snippet of what it was like growing up. So do you feel, like, complex? Sorry, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:27:00] Did you. Were you going somewhere? Because I was just gonna ask. Generally speaking, it sounds like it's your dad's in the choir that you're living in, I'm assuming, like 95 Mormon community there in Utah county, that your whole life is probably has to do with the church. It's kind of the only lens that you view the world through, baby. So talk. Anything else that you want to say about the worldview that you were kind of given and the way that you viewed things and then maybe else. Any other spiritual experiences, like throughout your teen years that kind of tied you the. To. To have faith in this church?

McKay Johnson [00:27:34] Yes, 100%. So as far as the worldview goes. So as Carah, you mentioned earlier that I'm a drummer in a rock band. Right. And that I started playing drums when I was like 12, 13 years old in general. Grew up in a really musical household. Right. And I remember even from an early age when I started playing drums, my parents were very supportive of it, but from a lot of extended family and even my first drum teacher, they kind of demonized, like, rock music, you know, or any music that was too heavy or, you know, talked about sex or whatever. Definitely was never allowed to listen to rap at all. Like, that shit was of the devil. And so that was one kind of very important for me, aspect of my worldview that was very effective. And it's only in the past, you know, few years that I've really been able to branch out and explore, like, well, what kind of music and. And. And media do I actually enjoy and like and want to consume, because that's what I want to listen to or watch or read and not because someone told me that I can or can't or should or shouldn't. Right. And so that expectation also of being able to have kind of a steady 9 to 5 job and provide for a family was instilled in me from a very young age. But by the time I was 13, 14, I was getting damn Good at drums. And by the time I was 15, I knew that's what I want to do, like, for a career. Like, what was that?

Carah Burrell [00:29:11] I got chills.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Just.

Carah Burrell [00:29:12] I love that when, like, when you realize that you're talented that early on that, like, that's. And by the way, everyone, he is really talented. He'll. You'll go on sometimes on TikTok or other platforms, but I've literally sat and watched your TikTok lives where you're just drumming as part of your band. Like, dang, he's talented. So that's really cute that you recognize that you were talented at such an early age and like, that you're like, what am I gonna do? How do I make these two worlds kind of coincide?

McKay Johnson [00:29:37] Yeah, exactly. And so that. That messaging of, you know, the most important thing is that you need to be. You need to get married, like, after you serve a mission and whatnot. And you need to prepare to be a father and a husband and everything and serve in the church for your whole life was very strong. And many, like extended family members and just people in the church in general, would often say things like, you know, you think you want to do music as a career, but you're going to find that the two aren't compatible. And hell, maybe they were right and great, because I'm very happy now doing music, but there are people in the church who do music, so it's kind of funny that. That people would say that. Right. But it's that it's that very patriarchal everything in the box sort of messaging. And I have to ask. Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] Just because I. I grew up listening to classic rock and rock music in general. I'm really curious to hear who your drumming influences were as a teenager. Like, I'm a huge Neil Peart fan, for example.

McKay Johnson [00:30:40] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] I'm curious if you've, you know, who some of those big influences have been.

McKay Johnson [00:30:44] Yeah, so Neil Peart was my very first love on the drums.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] Really?

McKay Johnson [00:30:49] Yeah. Drummer of Rush.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Favorite album, Moving Pictures.

McKay Johnson [00:30:53] Oh, that's. That's tough. I mean, 2112. But moving pictures is fantastic as well. I mean, you got Tom Story, Red Barchetta, so, I mean, a lot. A lot of great stuff. John Bonham of Led Zeppelin also.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] May you rest in peace.

McKay Johnson [00:31:09] Yes, well, both of them, right?

John Dehlin [00:31:10] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Neil, too.

McKay Johnson [00:31:13] Yeah. I was very sad when Neil died a couple weeks ago. Super bummer.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Yeah, super bummer.

McKay Johnson [00:31:16] Alex Van Halen from Van Halen. And I, you know, Hutford teacher. Yeah. Oh, I Love that.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Can you play that on the drums?

McKay Johnson [00:31:23] Yes, I can.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] That's hard.

McKay Johnson [00:31:24] Yeah, it's. I should do a YouTube video for that one. I do have a drumming YouTube channel, and I have not been updating it because I've been so focused on TikTok.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] What about YYZ? Could you do YYZ?

McKay Johnson [00:31:33] Yeah. Yeah. least the recording. I've never, like, sat down to try to learn the whole extended, like, live solo, but I know I could play it.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] That's awesome.

McKay Johnson [00:31:41] Yeah. So I could. We could make this whole thing about

John Dehlin [00:31:44] who is the who. I know we want last one. Who is the Nirvana drummer? Dave.

McKay Johnson [00:31:48] Dave Grohl. So he actually is kind of in a different way. I mean, his drumming is good, but I never would have put it on the same level as kind of Neil Pearl or John Bonham or Buddy Rich. But Dave Grohl is. I looked this up a couple years ago. He is the. Has the highest net worth of any drummer. And that might be kind of cheating because now he's the front man of the Foo Fighters. Right, right. But still, like, that's. That's goals, man. Like, make a living, you know? That's definitely what I want to do. First step with music, but be the drummer with the highest net worth. And I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind, so.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] All right, well, I had to ask. Carah, sorry about that. Back to you.

Carah Burrell [00:32:32] Yeah, I'm sure that was, like, probably people's favorite detour, because now we're going to have to, like, get into all this really sad stuff.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] I have to play your role and keep things alight sometimes, right?

Carah Burrell [00:32:43] Yeah. Thank you. Great. I'm, like, all business here. John's like, let's talk about fun albums. And I also. I'm really terrible with, like, good music. I am assuming these are all famous things that are very relevant to the audience. I'm still stuck on, like, listening just to Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, and, like, Rock Steady before we get started, and, like, funky music.

McKay Johnson [00:33:04] All good stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:33:05] And it's telling McKay earlier that, like, we'll talk about music maybe towards the end as well, but I'm gonna start learning the saxophone again. I'm just stuck on, like, smooth jazz over here, and I'm, like, out of the rock and roll scene completely. That's not quite my jam, but I will be by the end of this. I will be making sure that I head out to every one of your shows from now.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] We'll play 2112.

Carah Burrell [00:33:26] We'll play.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] We'll play 2112 for Carah. So she can appreciate.

McKay Johnson [00:33:29] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] The priests of the Temple of Sirius. I'm sure she'll. I'm sure she'll love it.

McKay Johnson [00:33:33] She'll appreciate the cult vibes.

Carah Burrell [00:33:35] I think if I can. If I can just jam out to music as we're ending, that'll be a good day at Mormon Story Studio.

McKay Johnson [00:33:41] Sweet.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] The deal.

Carah Burrell [00:33:44] So rock and roll, anything to do with, like, satanic music. Off limits. But that's, like, what you kind of need to get your influences from.

McKay Johnson [00:33:54] Yeah, well, and it's what I always gravitated towards. And I mean, my dad, you know, listen to and listens to a lot of classic rock, so I still did get a good amount of that. But anything that was, like, beyond Black Sabbath in terms. In terms of, like, heaviness was kind of, like, taboo and kind of a. No, no, I would say. But then. But again, my two older brothers, being the rebellious, you know, Lehman and Lemuel that they were, would listen to a lot of kind of heavy and hardcore stuff anyways, so I kind of dipped my toes a little bit into that sea. But it's only been in the past few years that I've really been able to allow myself to just fully like, immerse in all genres of music, you know, heavy metal, hardcore, rap, hip hop, and just ever anything and everything and not worry about, like, content. Does this swear? Does it talk about sex or drugs or whatever? It's just like listening to the music for the music, which is. Has been very liberating.

Carah Burrell [00:34:51] But, yeah, right on, man.

McKay Johnson [00:34:52] Yeah.

Nauvoo Pageant and Missionary Zeal

Carah Burrell [00:34:54] So from that point forward, you were kind of like the Nephi of the family, trying to live in this rock and roll world. But it sounds like you would have attended seminary. Was your family into, like, scripture study? Were you. Did you feel like you had, like, a strong testimony and that you felt like you were tied strongly to the church?

McKay Johnson [00:35:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:35:15] That you weren't just doing it for a performative reason, that you actually felt like you had a testimony?

McKay Johnson [00:35:18] Yeah, yeah. So. And it was probably kind of a case of, like, fake it till you make it. But eventually I definitely arrived at a point where I felt like I made it, so to speak. And there were a few experiences in my teen years that I think kind of kind of led to that. So one of the first ones would have been we went to youth conference when I was, I believe, 15 years old. Oh, no, wait. Nope. Gotta backtrack before that, actually, me and my family, we participated in the Nauvoo pageant for three years. 2007, 2008, 2009. So this would have been when I was 11, 12, and 13. And for those who don't know, the Nauvoo pageant is the church's. It's a big missionary tool for the church, actually, but it's this big pageant, so, like a big outdoor play that they do in Nauvoo, Illinois, every summer.

Carah Burrell [00:36:11] You would have traveled back there every summer?

McKay Johnson [00:36:13] Yeah, for three years in a row. We did every summer. And we did. Yeah. It was basically Mormon LARPing.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:36:21] Where, you know, we performed in this play about kind of some of the things that the early members of the church did and went through Nauvoo. And, you know, obviously it's very favorable toward characters such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Carah Burrell [00:36:37] Do you remember any of the songs from it?

McKay Johnson [00:36:39] Oh, yeah, actually. Let Nauvoo in her beauty rise. Oh, my God. I can't believe I'm singing that.

Carah Burrell [00:36:47] Keep going, Keep going. I was like, if we could get every musical reference we can get out of you today, I will.

McKay Johnson [00:36:54] Yeah, that's about all I remember of that one. I mean, I. No, I think I probably remember some more of the lyrics, but do I want to sit here singing that? No.

Carah Burrell [00:37:02] We were not moving on until Carah gets what she wants.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Just kidding.

McKay Johnson [00:37:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:37:05] So you went back and participated in that, and did you feel like you. Because if people don't know Nauvoo, it was a major stop for the Saints that they built an entire town there. And City of Joseph City. Beautiful city of Joseph. Nauvoo. Nauvoo was like the Zion until they moved out West. West. And so, so much church history is just everywhere you walk there, there's, you know, old buildings that are. Whatever you want to call it, like, historical. Historical site.

McKay Johnson [00:37:32] Historical sites, exactly. There's the new Nauvoo temple that was rebuilt in 2002.

Carah Burrell [00:37:37] Yes. So it's like a major stop. So just like we were talking about in Camille Jones interview about how Palmyra is like a sacred site to Mormons, Nauvoo is like its own mecca that Mormons go to, that they flock to to go to the Navu Pageant. And so if your family must have been, like, super hella committed to, like, a, music and B, like, going back to this mecca to perform in the pageant every year. That's quite the commitment.

McKay Johnson [00:38:02] Yeah. So it's like this. This musical slash, like, musical theater family that's also very Mormon. And so, like, besides being in, like, regular community or even professional plays that my dad was in some. Some and like, all play instruments and whatnot. We would also, you know, go do the Nauvoo pageant. And I remember lots of experiences out there that were definitely looking back very much like, indoctrinating the kids who participate in that to become, like, very strong members of the church as adults. And, you know, it's honestly probably quite effective when you have a bunch of people and a bunch of kids out in the middle of July in Nauvoo, Illinois, where it is muggy as hell, mosquitoes, chiggers, and you're dancing and singing praises to Jesus and to Joseph Smith all day long. Like, it kind of creates this zeal, you know.

Carah Burrell [00:38:59] Exactly.

McKay Johnson [00:39:00] For the church, especially. The second year we went out and did it as, like, the core cast where we were like, main characters in the show. Like, my dad played Brigham Young.

Carah Burrell [00:39:09] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:39:11] And we were there, like, the whole summer. Whereas other times they do it in kind of shifts where it's like families will come out for two weeks at a time and then go back home. So anyways, yeah, definitely. Those were some big faith builders. I'm trying to think of if I had any very specific experiences out there. I guess one that I could throw out, which was like a testimony builder, was the second year we did it. My parents somehow convinced my oldest brother Dan, who was already very much out of the church at that time, to come out and actually be in the pageant. And I remember one night after we had performed in the novel Pageant, there's this scene where it's about King Follet, who is a Mormon history figure who died. And that's around the time that Joseph Smith revealed, I think, doctrines about the afterlife, plan of salvation type stuff. Eternal families. Right. Sealing and everything. Polygamy. And there's this scene in the pageant that's very, very emotional. Very much, thank you very much. Elevation, emotion. And they do this big song that's all kind of about that stuff and life after death, and they appear as if they're angels in the afterlife. And anyways, I digress. I remember after that one particular night where my oldest brother was there and he was just watching that night. He was, like, in tears.

Carah Burrell [00:40:47] Really?

McKay Johnson [00:40:48] Yeah. And he. He said to me, I think grandpa was watching you. Which a. Coming from him being very, you know, non Mormon at that point, as he was and still is to this day, was just kind of like. Was kind of like, whoa to me. And kind of like, I guess, testified to me. Like, I guess, you know, there really is something more. And, like, there must be, like, life after death. And the plan of salvation is real.

Carah Burrell [00:41:16] Woo hoo.

McKay Johnson [00:41:19] So that was I guess a big testimony builder for me was like my brother basically telling me like I saw grandpa watching because our grandpa died before I was even born. Both of them actually.

Carah Burrell [00:41:30] Really?

McKay Johnson [00:41:31] Yeah. And he was specifically in that instance referring to my dad, our dad's dad, who he would have known because he only died like a year and a half before I was born. So my older siblings all got to meet him and I got jipped. Damn it.

Carah Burrell [00:41:46] Yeah. So it's stories like that that it's like twofold to me where it's like you want to feel connected to your ancestors. Yes you do. That's a beautiful thing. But then it's also like co opted a little bit and then used to like it's because you were fulfilling their dream for you to be Mormon and to play out this, play out literally this role and to like to be a good little, you know, Mormon boy and do what you're supposed to do. So it's like tender and beautiful that like, you know, somebody's watching over you, that's proud of you. Well it's like conditional proudness maybe because you're doing what they want you to do. So that was a good testimony builder. And that you said, you also mentioned that youth conference.

McKay Johnson [00:42:29] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:29] You're 15.

McKay Johnson [00:42:30] Yeah, yeah. So by, so by the time I was that age, like you know, I was had a lot of kind of that missionary zeal that was taught, taught and kind of beat into me from an early age as it is with most Mormon boys.

Carah Burrell [00:42:44] Because you know, just for the clarifier, there is no other way to be a righteous young man in the church without really serving a mission. It's like that is the way to go.

McKay Johnson [00:42:54] To quote Thomas S monster and missionary service is a priest, a responsibility, a priesthood duty that is expected of us who have been given so very much. He gave that talk when I was probably 10 or 12 and like obviously that was very hammered in to me and all the boys in every iteration of my young young men's groups. Right. And, and across the church for sure.

Carah Burrell [00:43:19] Yeah. Thank you for knowing that quote so directly as well. Like there's no mincing words. Like when people are like oh, you chose to serve him, it's like the choice was already made basically.

McKay Johnson [00:43:29] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:43:30] If there's one kind of way to be righteous in my parents eyes and in my ward leader's eyes, it's like the choice was kind of made to serve a mission. And so you are going down this Path, like, all right, what do I need to do? Like, what do I need? What do I need to learn? Who do I need to be? So, okay, so, yeah, no, it's this

McKay Johnson [00:43:45] mountain of cultural and social pressure that is placed on young boys in the church that is just so unfair and so wrong in so many ways. And we can get more into my feelings on that now later in this interview.

Carah Burrell [00:43:58] Right on.

McKay Johnson [00:43:59] But yeah, so. And, you know, going into that youth conference thing, I mean, even before that in the Nauvoo pageant, I also remember I had an experience where I, like, tried to convert, like a local kind of anti Mormon, like, evangelical Christian preacher and actually invited him to come see the pageant. And he did. And like, you know, one of the missionary tools there was like, you'd get a referral for the actual missionaries, but you'd send someone a free gift of, like, the Restoration DVD or whatever. Right. So this missionary culture was definitely being hammered into me from an early age to the point where I was, like, bold enough to go to evangelical anti Mormon preachers and be like, hey, join the church.

Carah Burrell [00:44:40] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:44:41] Not in those words, but they're probably

Carah Burrell [00:44:43] just going to check out what the Mormons were up to to go do a sermon on you.

McKay Johnson [00:44:47] Probably. You know, I don't know. But yeah. When I was 15, we had a summer youth conference, and I don't think it was my first youth conference. It is the first one that comes to mind that I can really remember, though. And, you know, aside from all the fun activities and whatnot at Mormon youth conferences, I think the point is always to shore up the youth's testimonies. Right. I don't think I'm speaking lies by saying that. And kind of the crowning experience of this youth conference when I was 15 was they had all of our parents before the youth conference write letters to us where they basically, from what I remember, expressed their testimonies and their feelings about the church. And I think the whole theme of the youth conference was about, like, faith and building faith and whatnot. And I know that even at that early age, as much as I felt a lot of, like, missionary fire for the church, at the same time, there was already some sort of cognitive dissonance on some level, because I always questioned from a very early age, is there really a God? Is there really any sort of higher power? I don't know, because there's, you know, there's lots of people, like, even my brother who said, like, I think grandpa was watching you. Right? There's lots of people around me in My life, who have always said things like. Like that. Or that they've seen spirits of their deceased ancestors or seen angels or had visions or whatever. And I never had. Never have. And so I kind of had those doubts, right? Like, is this stuff really real? And so I remember they had us go off towards the end of the youth conference on our own to read these letters from our parents, you know, and it's in the woods and it's peaceful. And you're thinking Joseph Smith stories like this age, right when he had the first vision.

Carah Burrell [00:46:40] It must be, like a standard protocol. I did that, too. Every single. I swear, that's, like, exactly how they do. That's how they get you. No, just kidding. But, yeah, they want to recreate, like, this quiet, peaceful environment and have you read something meaningful from your parents and you're supposed to have, like, some big, electric, moving moment there in the woods

McKay Johnson [00:46:57] by yourself and didn't have it really well, later, Later. But that's part of the story, right? So I'm in the woods. I'm, like, literally in this beautiful grove somewhere in the woods in the, like, Ashley National Forest here in Utah or wherever it was. I don't remember the exact location. And just, like, earnestly praying, like, because, you know, the things that the parents encourage their kids to do in the letter was like, pray and ask God to know if the Book of Mormon and the church is true and if Jesus is, you know, actually son of God and yada, yada, yada, all that stuff, right? The. The kind of foundational testimony things. And so I remember saying, like, a really sincere prayer and asking all those questions, and just, like, sitting there for must have been, like, five minutes with my eyes just shut tight and just trying to listen for a still, small voice and not hearing anything except for, you know, birds, like, just whistling in the trees. And it was peaceful, it was calm. And I finally opened my eyes, and I'm thinking, like, there's gonna be an angel. I just know it. And no, nothing. Some pretty sunshine and a really nice tree, you know?

Carah Burrell [00:48:02] But the answer is because you already knew.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:48:06] You didn't need that. God knew. I'm just doing the apologetic argument. But what did happen, Mikay? Tell me anything else?

McKay Johnson [00:48:13] Well, after that experience, which was probably about an hour or so, they got us all back together kind of at the lodge where we were all staying at for a big final, like, group testimony meeting. And I'm sure you can guess how this goes down.

Carah Burrell [00:48:29] I can't, actually. Well, let me tell you then, full of surprises.

McKay Johnson [00:48:33] So, you know, one of the leaders, I think the bishop probably started it with his testimony and then opened it up for everyone else to go up and testify of how they were feeling or whatever. And I kept seeing other kids from the ward going up to do that, including. Including a few that I really looked up to. There's this one guy in my ward that was just a year older than me, and he's a great guy. To this day, I'd still consider him a friend still in the church. Love him to death. Anyways, he was always very, very into the church as well. And he's one of the first to get up and bear his testimony. And I'm just thinking, oh, all these people are feeling it. Like, I need to feel it too. And so I eventually got up to, like, bear my testimony. And, you know, I was feeling, like, shaky. And I assumed, like, that's gotta be the spirit. Well, actually, probably just, you know, anxiety maybe, but. Or elevation, emotion as well. And, you know, I got up and said some stuff about how I knew it was true, even though in my mind I'm thinking like, yeah, I really have no idea, but everyone else is saying it, so must be right. And I'm feeling some kind of way and mentioning something specific about, you know, I haven't seen God or angels, but I have faith and yada, yada, said my peace in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. Went and sat down, right. And then the part of this that I'm trying to get to here, where it really became a testimony builder for me and kind of a foundation of my faith for many years, was one of our youth leaders got up and he was, like, in tears. Just. He wasn't crying. He was weeping, like. And he, you know, started bearing his testimony at one point, said, someone earlier said, obviously referring to me, that, you know, they hadn't seen God or whatever, but I know this isn't doctrine, but I have to share this quote. To love another person is to see the face of God, which is a quote from Les Miserables, the musical. For those watching who may not be aware.

Carah Burrell [00:50:38] Can you sing a little bit? Just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Do you hear the people singing, singing the song?

McKay Johnson [00:50:47] See the Face of God. There we go. John.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] Carah, you got what you wanted?

Carah Burrell [00:50:53] Yeah, thank you. Just, like, peppering it in. So you're in there.

McKay Johnson [00:50:58] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:50:58] So that's like, you held on to that as if it was just.

McKay Johnson [00:51:01] Oh, yeah. I, I. Even though he had that whole disclaimer of, like, you know, I know this isn't technically doctrine, but, like, I totally held on to that for many years as kind of doctrine or at very least like a foundational thing that I could always go back to where it's like, you know what? It doesn't matter if I see, you know, any sort of vision or see any sort of real evidence of there being a God, just by the way I love and treat others. I just know because of that that there is a higher power. And now that I say that out loud, it sounds kind of silly, but that was where I was at that point. So that was a very big testimony building experience for me at the age of 15. And then, yeah, from there it kind of just became more and more as I got older in my teen years, prepping for the mission and dealing with that versus the tension of, you know, playing drums and wanting to do music professionally and the 10, the. All the sexual tension that we kind of talked about already a little bit, you know. So throughout my teen years, it was kind of on and off, on and off. Masturbation, looking at pornography, feeling guilty, going to whatever bishop I had at the time and confessing. And luckily I never had any bishops in my whole life, during my whole time in the church, actually, that were like some of the really terrible ones that I've heard horror stories about from other people's Mormon stories here on the podcast and just in general.

Carah Burrell [00:52:32] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:52:33] So Bishop roulette for you. You win some, you lose some.

Carah Burrell [00:52:36] And I think some. They just never asked you those direct questions or.

McKay Johnson [00:52:40] Oh, no, they asked the direct questions like, do you masturbate? I. I don't recall any of them asking any, like, weird questions like, did you. Did you orgasm? Or anything like that? More stuff like, you know, okay, how often and yeah, that, that sort of thing.

Carah Burrell [00:53:01] Were you told not to take the sacrament?

McKay Johnson [00:53:03] Yeah, there were a few times where that was a thing. And that was always very, like, kind of embarrassing and shameful. And I'd like. If we were going to church, you know, I'd ask my parents, like, can I sit in between you? So no one can see that I'm not taking the sacrament, you know, so it was always very, very much a shame thing, which was definitely, definitely damaging and sent all sorts of really bad messages about normal human sexuality to me as a kid.

Carah Burrell [00:53:29] Sometimes on the podcast we talk about. I wanna. This is kind of going to be a subject and a theme of the difference between the sexual messaging that men get in the church and women get in the church.

Mormon Dating Rules and Pre-Mission Relationships

McKay Johnson [00:53:40] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:53:41] And I just kind of wanted to ask because I think that's Interesting that I think you had like, a very, you know, typical, like, libido as a young man throughout the church.

McKay Johnson [00:53:50] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:53:51] What was the messaging or that you were told about your responsibility and a girl's responsibility? If you have any stories or anything that you remember from that, other than wise, maybe you don't. I'm just curious because there are so many young women who are told that they need to cover up, that it's their responsibility to not arouse the young men around them. And then especially as you were dating and finding a girlfriend, were there any, like, implicit or explicit messages about your responsibility versus women's responsibility?

McKay Johnson [00:54:21] Oh, no, for sure, for sure. That messaging was. Was totally there in so many different ways. And even. Even for me as a guy, I was told I needed to cover up too. I mean, these porn shoulders and these big biceps that I'm showing today, that that was a no, no for me at least. Maybe not for all Mormon guys growing up, but, like, tank tops, my mom always told me, like, that's immodest. Don't wear that, you know, so. And then the messaging around women and modesty was also definitely a big thing. And to my parents credit, I will say they never went quite to the level of like, really slut shaming, I would say, which is a very unfortunate thing that does happen in a lot of Mormon households. So I was always taught, you know, to treat everyone and woman with respect, even if they were like, dressed immodestly or whatever, and that it wasn't necessarily like, my place to tell them, hey, you are dressed like a whore or whatever like that. But. But that messaging was there for sure. For sure. And I remember as far as roles, like gender roles, as early as age 12 is when I got my patriarchal blessing. And one of the lines that really stuck out to me for many years from that was, you know, independent of what you do for a career, your most important role in this life is to be a loving and loving husband and father in Zion. And you will find the greatest joys in your life will be within the walls of your own home as you're loving, patient, kind, and humble and yada yada, yada. So there's all that, right? Kind of putting me into this box of this is what is expected. This is what you have to do with your life in order to have exaltation and. And all that. Right?

Carah Burrell [00:56:15] Yeah. The covenant path.

McKay Johnson [00:56:16] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:56:17] No detours.

McKay Johnson [00:56:18] No detours from the covenant path, including if you have to give up what you love most. Playing drums, playing rock and roll, you know?

Carah Burrell [00:56:26] Yeah, yeah. No shade on being a father and being a parent.

McKay Johnson [00:56:30] No, of course not. I still want to one day. Just not. Not as soon as the church wanted me.

Carah Burrell [00:56:36] Exactly. Maybe also in your patriarchal blessing, God could have been like, I've also blessed you with some talents. I hope that you can express your talents and bless children of Zion with a rad drum.

McKay Johnson [00:56:50] Yeah, you know, that would have been great. And I feel like my patriarchal blessing was very similar to a lot of people's words, like, very vague, except for. Okay, there was one cool line in my patriarchal blessing that I always thought was super dope, which was, you will stand on the earth when the Savior comes again to rule and reign with him for a thousand years. So I thought, I'm never going to die. I'm going to be. What's the. What's the term translated or transfigured?

John Dehlin [00:57:10] Twinkled.

McKay Johnson [00:57:11] Twinkle. I'm going to be twinkled. I'm going to be twinkled. So I'll be alive for the second coming. And I thought, that's cool.

Carah Burrell [00:57:20] Yeah, I know. I have friends like that had that in theirs. And I was so jealous. My patriarchal blessing, this is not about me. But my patriarchal blessing actually did get me through some tough times because it really felt like God knew me. And if there's anything that's true about Mormonism, in my opinion, it's by patriarchal blessing. Told me some specific things that, like, you were always going to stand up for the marginalized. And I was like, interesting, because I did have a. I did have a theme of doing that throughout my. My teen years of, like, you know, making sure who's not fitting in. I'm gonna go sit with them. Well, a t wellty well D. Look what I do for a living. Anyway, thought I'd add that it's interesting. My Patreon blessing came a little bit. True in some ways. But anyway, so patriarchal lessons can be huge testimony builders.

McKay Johnson [00:58:02] Yeah. So that would have been one. One of them for sure. And that was back when I was 12 years old. I guess I forgot to mention that when we were talking about that era.

Carah Burrell [00:58:12] It's a Caraberell interview and we're jumping around. John is. This is not the John de Lynn show. So we will be jumping around chronologically.

McKay Johnson [00:58:21] Yeah, it'll happen.

Carah Burrell [00:58:22] Because this is the third interview. This is only the third one that I've sat in the seat to do. Right.

McKay Johnson [00:58:26] Third time's the charm.

Carah Burrell [00:58:27] Carah Kelly Trust Camille Jones McKay Johnson. She're in the. The top. The top three. So still like, you know, grease and the wheels. We might have forgotten to ask some questions if it wasn't on the outline. What am I supposed to do anyway? So important patriarchal blessings. Just it. Like the Mormon world set you up, like we were saying, like, on a covenant path. Between that and already knowing that you have to serve a mission, kind of. You have a lot of strong messages. If anyone needs to know, say no more, say less. When you said Eagle Mountain, Utah, you know, like. Like, I don't know how much more we could explain how Mormon of an upbringing this basically is. Right. Like, that says it all.

McKay Johnson [00:59:09] Very, very Mormon. Yeah. And I guess one of. One of the other maybe last things about my teen years that would be important was the messaging around dating, which was, you know, very kind of to the letter of what the church would encourage. Right. Which was no steady dating until after your mission or I think with. My parents had said it was like, no study dating until you're an adult, which could technically be premission. And I kind of found a loophole with that when I turned 18, but we'll get into that in a second.

Carah Burrell [00:59:42] Genius.

McKay Johnson [00:59:43] And the funny thing is that even with that messaging, all I wanted was to find someone to love and just be with, like, one. One person, you know, and. But I was told I couldn't do that. And so it was kind of this really conflicting message of like, you know, your greatest role is to be a husband and father one day, but not right now.

Carah Burrell [01:00:08] Like, so how does that, like, actually play out? Did you eventually, like, start dating somebody steady and people were like, no.

McKay Johnson [01:00:14] Yeah, yeah. So no. So the rule in my. In my. From. From my parents in our household was no steady dating until 16, or no going on dates at all until 16. No steady dating at that age yet, though.

Carah Burrell [01:00:25] And that usually means, correct me if I'm wrong, like, you can't even go to, like, prom or group dances. You can't even go on, like, group school dates until you're 16.

McKay Johnson [01:00:33] Nope, I was not allowed. And that. And that was like a big. A big deal. I remember my sister got asked to a dance, like, right before she would have turned 16. She was, like, 15, just about to be 16. And it was this huge debate in the house as to whether or not she could go to this dance. And it's like, oh, come on. Just. That's really frustrating to me. And thinking of probably some of the shit that my sister went through as well, and I don't mean to speak for her But. And she's still an active member of the church as well, so she probably has very differing views on that than I would. But nonetheless, them's the rules.

Carah Burrell [01:01:17] 16 on the dot, after midnight. You may now go to school dances.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Yep.

McKay Johnson [01:01:22] Cinderella, basically.

Carah Burrell [01:01:23] Right.

McKay Johnson [01:01:23] You don't want to turn into a pumpkin. So, Yeah, I turned 16 and was very excited to finally be able to go on dates. And at first, you know, it was just kind of the Mormon standard, like fun group dates. I actually got to go to prom three out of my four high school years because I turned 16 before prom my sophomore year. So that was really fun, you know. And then by the end of my sophomore year of high school, there was this girl that I really, really liked. She was in one of my classes, and she really liked me. And we ended up that summer, started dating. And so she became my first girlfriend. And. But I wasn't supposed to have a girlfriend. And actually, when I told my parents and my. One of my older brothers, my second brother, that I had kissed this girl, they were like, shouldn't do that, you know? And that brother had actually tried to convince me to not kiss any girls all through high school, and if I didn't, he would give me $200 when I graduated.

Carah Burrell [01:02:26] Ooh, that is a tough one. You need money. You need spending money in high school, but you also are very sexually frustrated.

McKay Johnson [01:02:34] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:02:34] Which. What's a guy to do? Right?

McKay Johnson [01:02:36] Right, Exactly. Well, obviously I ended up, you know, kissing girls and ended up steady dating this one girl for a couple months. But wasn't like, the rule was you can't go on a date with the same person twice in a row.

Carah Burrell [01:02:50] Yeah, John, you mentioned that before. That's kind of how you grew up as well, right?

John Dehlin [01:02:54] No, like that.

Carah Burrell [01:02:55] That was Utah culture for me.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] That's a Utah thing that I discovered once my children started dating. This whole. Yeah, like, that's crazy sauce to me.

McKay Johnson [01:03:04] Yeah, it's crazy sauce to me, too. Now, looking back on it, because it's

John Dehlin [01:03:07] like, don't ever actually develop emotional intimacy and healthy relationships.

McKay Johnson [01:03:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] You can only date them once and figure out that one. You got one shot. Maybe it's Sadie Hawkins your sophomore year. Maybe. Maybe save a girl till your prom senior year. But then if you know, you lose the chance, you're out of luck. Like, it's. I don't know, like, what. What are the. What are the types of implications of only being able to date?

McKay Johnson [01:03:35] I think it kind of, like I said earlier, I think it kind of sends this very mixed, conflicted Messaging of where on the one hand the church is very much promoting like you know, you need to be preparing as a teen to get married one day in the temple and be true and faithful to that one person forever. Unless you're a guy and your spouse dies and you want to get remarried later. Then you might be able to have two in the afterlife, but that's another topic, right? But then when you're a teen at the same time you're told date around, don't you know, steady date. And this whole rule of no going on two dates in a row with the same person. And it's like, so am I supposed to be in a committed relationship and develop emotional intimacy like you were talking about John, or am I supposed to hoe around, you know, like. And that's actually a couple some of my very rare non Mormon friends growing up in Utah, in a Utah, very predominantly Mormon high school. When I kind of told them about my parents dating rules, they were like, so your parents want you to whore around?

Carah Burrell [01:04:35] And I was like, well no, but without kissing, right?

McKay Johnson [01:04:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:04:40] Just like break a lot of girls hearts.

McKay Johnson [01:04:41] Yeah, emotional.

Carah Burrell [01:04:43] He's interested in me. He asked me on a date. He's not calling anymore. They don't know that your parents have a rule that you're not allowed to just like off to the next girl.

McKay Johnson [01:04:50] But so I mean my rebelliousness in high school was kind of to the extent of finding loopholes for that rule. So me and this girl were dating during that summer between our sophomore and junior years of high school. But we had to go on in dates. And those poor girls who were my in between dates and me and my best friend Tyler, who's one of my best friends to this day, we were clever dudes. He also had a girl that he liked and ended up dating pretty steady for most of high school. And so we would do them together and sometimes in the same day. So like in the morning we'd have an in between date with some other girls that we were probably friends with but we weren't like necessarily interested in beyond just being platonic friends. And then we'd go on a date later that night with our, with our quote unquote girlfriends. Right. And yeah. Wow, it is so weird to think about that. I haven't even thought about that in years probably. So thanks for bringing that up, I guess.

Carah Burrell [01:05:59] Here's the thing. This is where my mind's going to. It's too difficult to teach anything more than like abstinence only education. You'd actually have to have like a sex talk and actually talk about if you do develop emotional intimacy, you need to be and you decide to have a commitment and go all the way with your girlfriend. That's a conversation nobody in the church really wants to have to prepare kids for. So we'll just say don't develop relationships at all right now. Save that for when you are at a place in your life where you can put the ring on the finger. If you're not. If you're pre mission and you're still in high school, hell no. Are they going to have those conversations? Yeah, about actual like sex education. It's just like policing sexuality. And then also like for the love of God, nobody talk about it. Nobody dress the elephant in the room. And then you end up with like teenage pregnancies. Because they didn't even realize that this goes here. And that's how a baby is made, right? Yeah, like it's like a, it's a whoopsie. Yeah. By that point. And like, because they can't even have the conversation, it's like too, too taboo.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] Or like we talked about on the podcast last night, kind of alternative ways to have intimacy that are known and loved in Utah County.

McKay Johnson [01:07:12] Oh, Durfing.

Carah Burrell [01:07:13] Oh, surfing actually.

McKay Johnson [01:07:15] Is it the same as soaking Levi Lovin?

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Do we need to have a content?

McKay Johnson [01:07:19] I mean here we did at the beginning. I mean, I mean I didn't know what dirfing was.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] So

McKay Johnson [01:07:26] dry humping basically.

Carah Burrell [01:07:28] Okay, yeah.

McKay Johnson [01:07:29] And that didn't really. That, that does come into play but didn't really for me until, until college for the most part in high school. So I had a few steady girlfriends in high school and we'd, you know, kiss and make out a lot and whatnot. But for the most part it stopped short of anything too overtly sexual. My second, my, my second high school girlfriend, we did kind of like low key sext each other. Like not pictures but just kind of spicy messages. And then our parents found out about that and forced us to break up and further told us we could not have any contact with each other at all even in school. Like they told us if you pass each other in the hallways in school from now on till the end of the year when she graduates because she was a year older than me. Don't even wave at each other. Like, and the damaging messaging, I cannot tell you how, how strongly I disagree with that now. But you know, at the time they were like so worried like oh, you guys are gonna get pregnant or something and you're so rebellious and yada yada. And we had, like. I think the most we had done was, like, grabbed each other's butts. And my parents were like, you need to go into the bishop and confess that. And I did. And my bishop. My bishop at the time was like, okay, you're good. And I'm like, don't I need to, like, not take the sacrament? And he's like, you only touch each other's butts, right? And we're like, yeah. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, not that. That's not. You can take the sacrament. You're good. Oh, man. So that was. Yeah, it was kind of a roller coaster in high school. And then by my senior year of high school, moving things along here, I, about halfway through my senior year, started dating a girl who became my serious girlfriend, kind of on and off for several years, including after our missions, and for a long time thought we were gonna probably marry each other, too. And the way I justified that with my parents was I just turned 18, so I can have a steady girlfriend now. Thank you very much. You know, it was very kind of sassy. And I'm an adult. Leave me alone.

Carah Burrell [01:09:41] And you, like, were promising, I'm gonna go and serve a mission. Don't worry.

McKay Johnson [01:09:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was saying all that stuff too. And, you know, there were definitely some. Some arguments there with. With the parents, but I was pretty stubborn and headstrong. And even though I was like Nephi in their eyes, in some ways, I still had some rebelliousness in me. It must just be a. A Johnson boy thing, because we're all that way, I guess.

Carah Burrell [01:10:11] Was your girlfriend, like, pretty active in the church as well?

McKay Johnson [01:10:14] Yeah, so. So that's the interesting thing. So my. My third and final high school girlfriend, who, honestly, I would say is the first person that I really actually like, loved. Yeah. And, you know, she's married, has a kid now still in the church. Wish her and them well. Haven't seen them in years, but. But, yeah, absolutely. No hate or anything. Yeah. My first love. So, 17, 18, and she was also planning on serving a mission. So we were both very much like, hey, we're going to graduate high school and be very supportive of each other serving missions and whatnot. Right. And I got my mission call at the age of 18 because they had just a year before made the age change. And I got my mission call, and, like, she was there. Got it to Porto Alegre, Brazil, the Porto Alegre South Mission specifically. And, you know, we talked about, like, very serious conversations at the age of 18, talked a lot about how with the timing and our, like we were about a year apart in age, how she would actually end up leaving on a mission like a year after I had already been gone and then wouldn't get back until like eight or nine months, probably after I was already home. And so the funny thing is that I was the one who ended up saying shit like, I'll wait for you, baby.

Carah Burrell [01:11:40] I'm hot on the market in Utah County.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] Yep.

McKay Johnson [01:11:44] And spoiler alert, that is kind of what ended up happening.

Carah Burrell [01:11:49] I know. I didn't even need to read that line. I know, I know. That's exactly, that's. It's a tale as old as time. Like it is so difficult to be apart, whether it's the woman or the man who comes back or leaves first. It's. That's so hard for a young couple. And there's just. You have such a dating culture to date around, so many options. Everyone is Mormon, everyone. There's so many people to date. So yeah, that must have been kind of heartbreaking. How did that go?

McKay Johnson [01:12:16] Yeah, it was well. But I did end up kind of waiting for her is what I was trying to get at, actually. Like kind of yes, kind of no. And I'll explain, I'll explain that, but that's, that's all post mission.

Carah Burrell [01:12:26] So we want to get into the mission part. Right? So.

McKay Johnson [01:12:29] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:12:29] Anything else you want to say before that?

McKay Johnson [01:12:31] So I'm, you know, I'm trying to rack my brain to think if there's anything else from my adolescence or like my high school years that would be really, really important and relevant. But I think, you know, I think we've pretty much covered it all. The whole, the whole mission culture, the dating and purity culture, the wacky dating

John Dehlin [01:12:48] rules,

McKay Johnson [01:12:51] you know, pornography and masturbation being a thing. There were a couple times where I was pretty intensely shamed by one of. Either one of my parents for that or some leaders. And my first experience with it actually just really quick backtrack. When I was 12, it was actually an uncle and I've made a TikTok about that so people can go and watch that. It's first experience with. With porn.

Carah Burrell [01:13:15] So.

McKay Johnson [01:13:15] So yeah, anyways, I think that. I think that's about. About it about it. So as we get towards, you know, the end of my senior year of high school, I'm 18, I've received my mission call preparing for that. Getting the priesthood, getting endowed. Yeah, I think want to talk about

Temple Endowment and MTC Experience

Carah Burrell [01:13:27] going through the temple. How was your temple experience?

McKay Johnson [01:13:29] So Actually, someone asked me about this. I think just the other night I was doing a TikTok Live with Lexi8133, who is another great ex Mormon tiktoker.

Carah Burrell [01:13:40] Ooh, shout out.

McKay Johnson [01:13:41] Yeah, I'd love to shout out as many of my TikTok friends as possible at some point here. But we were talking about our first temple experiences, and it wasn't. How do I say this? It wasn't as like, cult y or traumatic for me personally, as I know it is justifiably so for lots of other people. And I think that partially has to do with the fact that I'm a guy. And I think a lot of the people for whom the temple is a lot more traumatic the first time, our woman, because it's very sexist. A lot of the wording, or at least it was, they've kind of taken some of it out. Like the whole veiling of the faces thing, I don't think that's part of it anymore. But it was when I first went through the temple, still a thing. And that stuff did bug me, but it had been explained away and apologized to me in so many different ways that I figured God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. You know, good old Isaiah verse. That's the apologist's favorite scripture to use in cases like that.

Carah Burrell [01:14:46] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [01:14:46] And so, you know, it wasn't too bad. I will say, when we got to the part with the prayer circle, I was thinking cult, cult, cult.

Carah Burrell [01:14:54] Cold gets a little freaky deaky when you're in a circle. Chanting. Chanting is kind of like red flag.

McKay Johnson [01:15:01] Yeah, no, that's what I was thinking yet. But at the same time, I was. We were. We were. I actually got endowed in the St. George Temple for my first time through because we were down there with all of our extended family for a big family reunion. And so, like, I was in the prayer circle my first time through, they'd bring me into the prayer circle. My sister, who had just recently returned from her mission and was super gung ho, was like, I want you to experience this. And so she and I were like partners in the prayer circle. And she seemed so happy and excited for me and just to be there, and my whole family did. And, you know, you're looking around your first time through the temple and you've got all these family members there and they're just like nodding approvingly and stuff, and you're just like, okay, I guess this is what we do, you know?

Carah Burrell [01:15:43] Yeah. Like, that needs to its own, like, bolded section. Like, when people go through the temple, it's like, this is what you've been doing in here. Oh, okay. I've heard it. Secret or sacred, like, oh. And this is why. Oh, you do this every time you grab your little temple bag and you head out the door. Mom and dad, this is what you've been up to, and I now need to do this.

McKay Johnson [01:16:03] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:16:03] I have some. I have some feelings to work through.

McKay Johnson [01:16:06] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:16:06] And then everyone's smiling at you.

McKay Johnson [01:16:07] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:16:08] Like, don't you love it?

McKay Johnson [01:16:09] Yeah. Isn't it just great? It's interesting, for sure. But I've done, like, a temple prep class and stuff where they emphasize so much. Like, just remember, it might seem they. They even said straight up, like, you know, the temple is often part of the reason why we're called a cult so much. But just remember, the people are saying that they don't understand. It's all very symbolic and it comes from God. So just put that aside, put it on your shelf, and it'll be fine. It'll be a joyful experience if you go with the right mindset.

Carah Burrell [01:16:41] So your mindset was kind of like an inoculated mindset of, like, things might be weird, it might seem culty, but it's not. So maybe that's why you had a better experience.

McKay Johnson [01:16:51] Yeah, but it was still. I was still thinking, especially in the prayer circle, cult cultural, and towards the end of the endowment, I remember thinking like, oh, this is why people think Mormonism is a cult. Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:17:02] Okay.

McKay Johnson [01:17:03] But then we got to the celestial room, and, you know, all my family, extended family, was there, minus my oldest brother, who, you know, had not been in the church for a long time. And I just remember thinking like, oh, this is awesome. Like, my whole family's here. It's so, like, bright and stuff. And this is what the celestial kingdom must be like, you know, Now I think about that, I'm like, oh, boy, I hope not if there's an afterlife.

Carah Burrell [01:17:34] But I have no hate for the celestial room. I feel like I don't have to.

McKay Johnson [01:17:37] It's a peaceful place.

Carah Burrell [01:17:38] I don't know how much you actually went through the temple.

McKay Johnson [01:17:40] Wearing those robes, though, is really what I'm.

Carah Burrell [01:17:42] You're like, I don't want to be wearing this.

McKay Johnson [01:17:44] Yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:17:45] We'll kind of like a quiet room where we can, like, meditate with God until the old ladies come kick you out, because you only have, like, 10 minutes or whatever. But, yeah, no shade on the celestial room or being with family or Anything.

McKay Johnson [01:17:56] No, of course not. But just, you know, the get up and the whole ceremony beforehand. So anyways. Oh, yeah. And we were in. We were in St. George June, so it's like 110, 115 degrees. And that was my first time wearing garments that was miserable. Oh. And I had made the mistake of buying, like, the spandex garment bottoms that were just not breathable at all. So sweaty. That was like baptism by fire into garment wearing for me.

Carah Burrell [01:18:21] Baptism by fire. Because you are in St. George.

McKay Johnson [01:18:24] Yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:18:26] You are closer to the sun there. It is so hot. Basically. It is. Yeah. 110 with garments on.

McKay Johnson [01:18:32] When you're an oven. It was. Oh, it was. It was miserable. And I'm like, I can't wear these shorts anymore. Like, that weren't even that short. You know, they went down to probably just about just above my knee. And it's like, oh, these garments are so long. So I have to like, change up my whole wardrobe. So.

Carah Burrell [01:18:45] Yeah. And people don't know that it is so hard to pick out garments when you're newly endowed. It's its own panic attack. For me at least.

McKay Johnson [01:18:54] Well, I'm sure even more so for women because you all have to figure out bra and whatnot. And it's just this one. You have extra layers and it's this whole.

Carah Burrell [01:19:01] Because you, like, have to buy stuff. You have to, like, take their word that this will fit. And then there you are, you're like, this doesn't fit at all. Or it's too tight or it's like not the right material.

McKay Johnson [01:19:10] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:19:10] And you just have to, like, go back and spend a boatload of money, like opening garment packages until you, like, can find one that you like. And then you're. Yeah. In an oven.

McKay Johnson [01:19:19] Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:19:19] St. George.

McKay Johnson [01:19:20] Yeah, it was a. It was a great time. Um, so. So yeah, that was.

Carah Burrell [01:19:25] And then how much later did you end up actually leaving? Did you go to the MTC in Provo or did you go to Brazil?

McKay Johnson [01:19:32] Yeah, so I went to the MTC in Provo in August of 2014. August 13, 2014 was my Enter the MTC date. A date that I will never be able to forget just because of kind of the significance it held in my life then and now, but in different ways than and now. Right. So I had a couple months there where, you know, I was. I wasn't chilling. I was like, working for a moving company. And that was even more of a testimony builder because all my co workers were like, very non Mormon and swearing up and down the wall and smoking and drinking and kind of got me to double down a little bit on the whole belief system and be like, I know I'm doing the right thing by going server mission, and I'm going to help people, evil sinners like this, to overcome their problems. So, anyways, yeah, August entered the MTC in Provo. I was supposed to go to the Sao Paulo, Brazil mtc, but my visa didn't arrive in time, which is a common thing. Thing that happens with South American, specifically Brazilian and Argentinian missionaries and, you know, the mtc. After about one week, I was ready to leave. I mean, the food was great, and it was, like, fun in a lot of ways. There's a lot of flirting that goes on in the MTC cafeteria, let me tell y'. All.

Carah Burrell [01:20:55] Between the workers at the mtc.

McKay Johnson [01:20:57] Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Between the elders and the sisters.

Carah Burrell [01:21:00] Oh, okay.

McKay Johnson [01:21:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:21:02] They actually get a mingle, like, hardcore, right?

McKay Johnson [01:21:04] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. MTC was, you know, probably a fairly standard MTC experience. We played soccer every day. We, you know, enjoyed the amazing food, probably gained some weight and.

Carah Burrell [01:21:19] But after a week, you weren't feeling it.

McKay Johnson [01:21:21] No. Because you're. Well, just because you're cooped up in this classroom all day. And I'm very much the kind of person that I love to be outside, and I love moving and grooving. I mean, I'm a drummer, for crying out loud. Like, I've got to be ADHD at least on some level. Like, I'm doing my very best to just not be super fidgety this whole interview. Right. That's. I'm just always moving, always doing some sort of physical activity. So, anyways. But I did enjoy learning the language, and I still speak Portuguese pretty fluently this day. And, you know, there were a lot of negative things from my mission and during my mission, for sure, but there are some positive things that came of it. Right. So it's kind of a mixed bag, you know, and learning a foreign language fluently is one of the positive things. And Portuguese, you know, helped me to learn Spanish post mission. I wouldn't say I'm fluent in Spanish, but I can speak and understand a pretty good amount because the two languages are very, very similar. So, yeah, I don't think there's anything super remarkable in my MTC experience beyond that, though. It's just kind of standard indoctrination. Learning the language, learning how to be a missionary, and you're, like, filled with

Carah Burrell [01:22:32] the zeal that you're going to go convert the heathens out in the world.

McKay Johnson [01:22:35] Yeah. Filled with that missionary zeal, baby.

Carah Burrell [01:22:38] Because there are some people who go to the MTC and they're like, I can't do this and they want to go home.

McKay Johnson [01:22:43] Well, actually, so my first companion in the mtc and I want to find this guy again and see whatever happened to him because we were only companions for less than a week. He got really, really sick and was like vomiting in the restroom on like our second and third day and ended up going home. And I remember our branch president in the MTC coming to talk to us about it and he had like this look of disgust when he. When he said this. He was like, he just didn't want to be here. Which now I look back on him like, wow, that's. Dude was like puking his guts out. Like I was there in the bathroom. Cause sight and sound. Right. Like I wasn't in the stall with him, but I was listening. Just vomit his guts out, you know? And it's like you're saying he just didn't want to be here. And I think part of it was actually he got so sick because it was panic attack inducing anxiety. But that's still a very real thing. Like the kid was sick basically.

Carah Burrell [01:23:41] Cannot be in this environment.

McKay Johnson [01:23:42] Yeah. And like was being shamed for it. Maybe. I don't know if he was shamed to his face about it or not, but the branch president definitely shamed the kid to us. So, Elder Spencer, if you're out there, it's Elder Johnson. I would love to meet sometime.

Carah Burrell [01:23:58] Elder Spencer. Shout out.

McKay Johnson [01:24:00] Yeah. Don't know his first name. Can't remember it. Maybe if I look in my mission journal or something, I'll be able to find it and look him up.

Carah Burrell [01:24:05] But that's like such an intense culture. Like, I am free.

McKay Johnson [01:24:09] I know, right? I know. Oh my goodness. But yeah, then my. So then we switched up companionships in the mtc and we had a good time. We were pretty good missionaries in my district and I was pretty like, by the book, but at the same time we'd be having rap battles with other zones in our dorm at night. So.

Carah Burrell [01:24:26] Love to see that.

McKay Johnson [01:24:28] Yeah, it's too bad we don't have any footage of that, but there's some good times. If you all ever seen 8 mile, like the Mormon missionary version of that.

Carah Burrell [01:24:35] Basically, if you just scroll on Instagram for a while, you will see a bunch of Mormon missionaries rapping. Trust me, you'll get there. That's at least what my feed is on, John, you know what I mean? That's all the missionaries are up to these days. They're creating, like, raps and songs these days.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] So, yeah, the church has an Instagram channel where it's just missionaries dancing and rapping and being cool.

Carah Burrell [01:24:55] Yeah. And jury's still out if the baptisms are flooding in, if that's working or not. We'll find out soon enough.

McKay Johnson [01:25:04] You know, judging by the rap skills we had in those MTC battles, I highly doubt it because we were not good. But we had fun at least. You know, it's a bunch of kids who should be out having fun and going to college and whatnot that are instead cooped up in this dorm learning 247 how to preach the word and how to completely suppress all their hormones and all their emotions and all their sexuality.

Carah Burrell [01:25:28] Not completely. Unless you're in the cafeteria. Well, you're making eyes at the sisters.

McKay Johnson [01:25:33] Yes, well, there's that, but you know, keep that on the download.

Carah Burrell [01:25:38] Right, right. So then you make your way to Brazil. What were your first, like, impressions?

Arriving in Brazil and Mission Culture

McKay Johnson [01:25:44] Yeah, so six weeks in the mtc made our way to Brazil. That travel day was crazy. Oh, my God, really stressful. They bust us out at like 3am or whatever. And anyways, I don't need to go over all the travel details, but I remember like the 10 hour red eye flight from Atlanta, Georgia to Sao Paulo, Brazil. And as like the sun was rising that morning, as we're getting maybe an hour or two from landing in Sao Paulo and just thinking all of a sudden, what the hell am I getting myself into? I'm like, well, here goes this new adventure. And also classic, hearing all these Brazilians on the plane around us speaking Portuguese and thinking, this is not the language they taught me in the mtc.

Carah Burrell [01:26:31] They speaking too fast or what?

McKay Johnson [01:26:33] Well, the accent. The accent was like our. Our MTC teachers were all Americans who had served in like, Portugal or Brazil. And they spoke fluently, but at the end of the day, they're not native speakers. And so they kind of had slightly like Americanized accents, right?

John Dehlin [01:26:49] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [01:26:50] And hearing these people who are, you know, actually Brazilian, actually live there speaking the language, it sounded like in the mtc, it sounded pretty close to Spanish. We get to Brazil and I'm like, is this French? Like, what is going on? Like, I can't understand a word that that guy just said. I'm like, trying to listen to their conversation and they're just going fast and I'm like, oh, boy, oh boy.

Carah Burrell [01:27:11] I can only imagine, like you're. You're feeling that on the plane. Like, you haven't even landed yet.

McKay Johnson [01:27:15] Yeah. And then, like, we land, and I thought we'd, like, forgotten our luggage or something. So I'm trying to go back and kind of panicking, and they're all just, like, you know, saying things, and I don't understand what's going on, but any. Anyways, things ended up being fine. We get to our respective missions because the missionaries I was flying with were not coming to my mission. And I get there, and I'm the last one of arrivals to my mission to arrive. I'm like an hour later than everyone else because they were all coming from the Sao Paulo mtc. And this left an impression on me, which becomes important later. My first mission president, I arrived, and he, like, barely acknowledged me. He didn't so much. He didn't give me a hug. I. I remember. I don't think he even gave me a handshake. And I'm not sitting here trying to badmouth the guy. I think he was just really stressed that day and busy with. We had the largest arrival class that the mission had ever had. It was like 30 missionaries arriving at once, all brand new. A lot of us American, you know, but yeah. So, like, that was kind of damaging in a way. And for people who don't know.

Carah Burrell [01:28:29] Sorry.

McKay Johnson [01:28:29] No, I was just gonna say I felt, like, super alone and kind of scared. Right. But anyways, go on.

Carah Burrell [01:28:34] For people who don't understand, like, the mission culture. Yes. You're leaving everything behind. What is the expectation of a mission president? Like, I've never served a mission, so explain, like, why it was so, like, kind of heartbreaking.

McKay Johnson [01:28:49] It's so, like, heartbreaking and jarring. Well, you're thinking, like, I don't know any way to put it other than your mission president and wife kind of become like your surrogate parents for two years or 18 months. That's the only way to put it. Because your contact, at least back in my day, with your parents and your family was only once a week by email or letter. And you only got to hear their voice and see them talk. Like, if you're doing a video call twice a year on Christmas and Mother's Day. And they changed that. I think that's a good thing. The church changed that a few years after I had already gotten home from my mission pretty recently still. Because that is really bad and damaging to young adults, like, mental health. Gonna swear here. I don't know any way to describe that other than that is fucked up, and that is wrong. You need to be able to talk with Your parents, when you've been sent off into this foreign land where you don't know anyone or anything, and you feel isolated and alone and scared, and you think you want to be there because that's what you've been taught that you're supposed to do. But deep down, that's not what you want to be doing. And that was super true for me. I, like, wanted to be there and had convinced myself that it was what I wanted to do and that it was the right thing to do. But on the other hand, I wanted to be playing drums and going to college. I missed my girlfriend, God damn it, I wanted to marry her. And there are all these complicated things. Right. So that was hurtful that I get there and my mission president doesn't really acknowledge me at all. We just all pile into this van and we go eat lunch. And it was a tasty lunch. You know, I. I did luck out serving my mission in Southern Brazil, where they have the best churrasco, which is Brazilian barbecue in the world, but definitely didn't luck out in some other ways.

Carah Burrell [01:30:42] Should we jump into those other ways? So you had. If anyone is unfamiliar with what Mormon missionaries do, I don't want to explain. Go Google it. But in short, you are kind of com. Have a companion that you are with 24 7, and you have to, like, wait outside the bathroom. Like, there is no privacy. You're with a person that you've just been paired up with for about six weeks. Right. So you're kind of just thrust into an environment. You're away from home, like the. Like you mentioned. And so at what point in your mission, like, in what companionship, did things start to get. Start to get rocky?

First Companion and the Trainer Relationship

McKay Johnson [01:31:26] First Companionship.

Carah Burrell [01:31:27] The very first one.

McKay Johnson [01:31:28] Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:31:28] Okay, so I didn't know that it was your trainer.

McKay Johnson [01:31:31] Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:31:32] So first, would you mind explaining kind of when you get to a mission, what's the job of a trainer? And then what's the name of the. The person being trained?

McKay Johnson [01:31:39] Is there a name for that trainee or the nickname Greenie, which I think is a thing in the military too, or like new, like soldiers or recruits, they'll call it, like, very green or whatever. It's just a thing in general. Right. But so you're a Greenie, right, when you're a brand new missionary. Yeah. So we got to the mission and then that first day, they have a couple, like, little training things that are all in Portuguese, and I'm not understanding hardly a word. Then we each of us have like a little initial interview with the mission. President. That's the first time he and I talked and he kept it very simple, spoke very slowly, so it was easy for me to understand. And he was very nice. You know, then they have a meeting where they sign your trainers that he's picked out for each companionship. Right. And so they signed me to my trainer who was this was this guy from Paraguay. And you know, they called my name and called his and paired us up. And he seemed, he had this big smile and seemed really happy and like almost giddy, you know, to be training a new missionary. Now I know why. And you know, it just seemed great. Like he seemed really friendly and stuff. And then they, you know, sent us off to our respective areas. Some of the missionaries who arrived with me, I don't envy, had like a 4 to 5. I think one of them, one of them even had a seven hour bus ride that night after all the, all the flying. But I. Our area was pretty close to the mission office, like maybe an hour away by bus. So we get to our new area and you know, just kind of decompress that night and then the next day it begins. Right. And so a mission trainer's job, self explanatory, is to train the new missionary. And it's generally for 12 weeks. So in a mission, in a Mormon mission, transfers are six weeks long in most missions. And you can have one companion then transfer to another, be transferred to another one. You don't get to choose, right. But sometimes you'll be with one companion for two or maybe three transfers, generally not longer than that. I had one companion that I was with for longer than that, but I'll get into that later, as little as six weeks though. But when it's your trainer, generally they like you to be with the same trainer for 12 whole weeks. So that's two transfers. And that was the case with me and my trainer. So we wake up the first day and you have an additional hour of training every morning when you're in your first 12 weeks of the mission. So you do your like personal scripture study for an hour, companionship scripture study for an hour, and then an hour of training out of this 12 week course. And so we started doing that every day and you know, getting into this very rigid schedule of arise at 6:30, go to bed at 10:30 after a day just of study and work in the hotel. Brazilian sun. And my first area had like these steep hills and oh man, do not ever want to relive that. So after maybe a week or two, things started getting maybe a little Weird in my eyes at the time with my trainer, he would occasionally start making kind of of off color jokes, sexual jokes that. I mean, even when I was just, you know, a kid growing up in the church, I was always told like, you know, don't joke about that stuff. But of course, teenage boys growing up joke about that kind of thing. But God forbid, as a missionary, you definitely shouldn't be like, joking about that kind of stuff or talking about it. Right. But he would start, you know, joking and talking about that stuff. Oh, and I said my mission trainer was Paraguayo, but he also spoke English pretty well. So that was actually kind of a nice thing to help me be able to learn the language and somewhat understand things a bit better.

Carah Burrell [01:35:28] So was he talking to you mostly

McKay Johnson [01:35:29] in English or he would switch off. I mean, like, we were supposed to talk mostly in Portuguese, but sometimes where I was like, I've got a headache. Like, you know, like, literally I would get headaches from absorbing the new language and trying to speak it every day for the first couple months of my mission until I got to a point where I was really more comfortable and then fluent with it. But, you know, he would speak to me sometimes in English as well, Usually only if we were at home. And so, yeah, he started making weird jokes. He would kind of act in a way, like pretending, like. I don't know how to say it other than he would kind of act like pretending to be a woman or pretending to be gay, which is just kind of really weird for someone to do. Not because being a woman or being gay is weird. Hell no, not that, but just because, like the fact that he was doing that and making all these jokes, and then that would kind of lead into like, you know, his hand would accidentally brush me or something. Just kind of starting with unwanted touch. Right. So for those who don't know, this is the beginning of what would be called a grooming process, whereby a predator kind of puts the frog in lukewarm water and raises the temperature of the water to boiling by degrees so that the. The victim doesn't really recognize it until it's too late and you're already being boiled alive or sexually abused and sexually assaulted. And, you know, it would slowly progress over, over time. And eventually there was one day where I had probably only been out in the field for a couple, maybe three, four weeks at most, where I was like, okay, whoa. Like, stop. What are you doing? Probably like pushed him away. And mind you, I was bigger and stronger than this guy. He never physically overpowered me. It was all mind games, all mental and emotional manipulation. Which is why I think it's important for people to understand how kind of grooming works. Because anybody can be a victim of this. Absolutely anyone. Man, woman, child. So anyways, I, like, pushed him away, and then he got so upset. And this happened many times where I would push him away or finally kind of have had enough of whatever he was doing and be like, hey, that is not cool. Stop that. Or, like, he would accidentally touch me inappropriately, and I would, like, slap his hand away or, like, very roughly push him and be like, don't do that. You know, and then he would shame me and say, you shouldn't be getting angry. You know, you're a missionary. Like, you're supposed to be a disciple of Christ. Like, I'm just joking around. Can't you take a joke? All sorts of. All sorts of things like that. And then that escalated to. He would give me the silent treatment for days on end where after I. If I had gotten mad at him or something, he would basically just not talk to me at all. You know, if I talk to him or anything, he'd just give one word answers, basically, and just have this very, like, you know, cold facial expression with me at all times. And. And you wouldn't do my training, for example, wouldn't help me with learning the language.

Sexual Assault by Mission Companion Begins

Carah Burrell [01:38:56] But I was just gonna ask, since you're kind of paired up with just one other person, did you have any other companionships that you could talk to? You're kind of isolated, right?

McKay Johnson [01:39:05] Nope.

Carah Burrell [01:39:05] And, like, you're in a country that you're unfamiliar, people are probably not too interested in your message. Maybe they were. But did you just feel, like, completely isolated then?

McKay Johnson [01:39:14] I felt so, so isolated. And I, you know, I've made a TikTok about this. At one point, I. I just wish I could go back there and knock him the fuck out and give my younger self a big hug and tell him, hey, man, it's gonna be okay. You don't need to be out here doing this. But I, you know, I am a very, like, sincere sort of person, and when I do something, I try to do it full send, 100%. And I believed that what I was doing was right at the time. It's how I had been raised, like, so. So it was very confusing and difficult, but I just thought, you know, well, maybe this is my challenge and my trial, and I've been called here to be companions with this guy so that I can show him, like, Christ's love or something and help him Out And I just need to be Christlike to him and not get angry or push back or whatever. And he totally knew that and totally took advantage of that. And that belief system of turn the other cheek and contention is of the devil. So that anytime where I got frustrated or grossed out enough to say stop or to push him or even hit him a couple of times, like not super hard, but just enough to get him to stop, you know, like he would intensely shame me. Silent treatment, I found out later. And I could kind of sense this at the time, but I didn't understand the language yet well enough to know that he was gossiping about me saying who knows what. Two other missionaries on the phone at night. And I also felt isolated because in mission companionships, at least in my mission at the time, you only have one cell phone. And the senior companion, which was obviously him being the trainer, has the cell phone like at all times. So unless I wanted to go and fight him and overpower him, which I actually did one time, but it wasn't like to grab the cell phone from him or anything, you know, unless I wanted to do that and like steal the cell phone and call the mission president or the zone leaders or something, you know, he had the phone all the time, including when he was sleeping. So, yeah, very isolating. And we were in this area where we didn't have. We weren't living with other missionaries because some missionary companionships will live with another missionary companionship and then they have areas that are just like opposite sides of the apartment building. We didn't have that. So, yeah, I felt very isolated, very scared, especially because I didn't speak the language. And there were straight up times where I was like, you know, if you're gonna keep doing this, I'm going to, you know, talk to the zone leaders or anything. And he straight up said like, they're not going to believe you over me.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] And when you said keep doing this shit. What. What stuff? Just. Just ignoring you.

McKay Johnson [01:42:05] The, the jokes, the inappropriate touching, the. Not the non consensual inappropriate touching, I should say, which all of it was. And it hadn't yet escalated to the point where he fully sexually assaulted me. But sexually harassing me for sure. And I mean, I guess like even just groping someone would count as sexual assault in its own way, which he had definitely done and been like, oh, sorry, it was an accident. My hand like fell or whatever. And I'd be like, what? Whatever. And I'd get mad at him. And, you know, eventually got to the point where I was like, you need to stop. I'm going to talk to someone about it. And he, you know, said, no one's going to believe you. They won't take your word over mine. I'm a trusted. And he was a trusted missionary in the mission. And that is one of the kickers for me is that no one ever knew about this. And I have since found out that I'm not the only companion that he sexually abused. And that's. That's hard. You know, I know I can't blame myself for everything that happened and the way things happened, and I can't blame myself for how scared I was and that I didn't go and tell my mission president right then and there. But at the same time, sometimes I. It keeps me awake at night thinking, like, shit, maybe if I had, then some of his companions after me wouldn't have gone through the exact same stuff, you know, and that's something I've talked about with my therapist at length. And I know it's not my fault. It is no one's fault but him, my mission trainer, piece of shit sexual predator. May he rot in hell, if there is a hell. But, yeah, so eventually, you know, it got to a point where I froze up one day. And actually, maybe before we get there, I do have my mission journal here that I brought, and I have a couple entries.

Carah Burrell [01:44:12] Yeah, whatever you're comfortable sharing that I

McKay Johnson [01:44:14] feel like might be good for me to read, just to kind of illustrate for people listening or watching what a grooming process looks like. And I actually hope that there are people who will watch and listen to my story and who will be able to prevent anything like this from happening to themselves or to other people and be able to recognize patterns of grooming and of abuse.

Carah Burrell [01:44:48] Yeah. Thank you for doing this, McKay. And like, your vulnerability is that's. It's got to be really hard to come out and say these types of things. And I know on TikTok that you've gotten pushback from people saying, you know, you like just saying horrible things to you.

McKay Johnson [01:45:01] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:45:02] And so it takes. It takes a really strong person to stand up for other people that you don't even know that other people that have been groomed by the same person. So I can imagine this is difficult and that I just want to thank you for. Yeah. Being as vulnerable as you feel comfortable.

McKay Johnson [01:45:19] So, yeah, thank you, Carah, for that. And again, I'm. I'm happy to share about it in as much as it can, hopefully help some other people. And also, in a way, it is Kind of cathartic for me to get. Get this out there and be very open about it. I think the more we bring dark, heavy things like this too light, the light kind of drives out that darkness. And that is very cheesy and cliche sounding, but it's true.

Carah Burrell [01:45:43] It is true.

McKay Johnson [01:45:44] So anyways, I've got a couple of these that are kind of where I was going through the grooming process. So this first one that I picked out is from October 25, 2014.

Carah Burrell [01:45:59] So.

McKay Johnson [01:46:00] Okay, I'm gonna skip the intro there because that's superfluous info. Okay. Starting here. I really, really don't understand my trainer. The past few days in our companionship have probably been the worst so far in some ways, as far as I can tell, just stemming from the fact that I politely asked him to not touch me so much in that weird, joking way. It makes me very uncomfortable. He did it a lot and I'd already hinted and asked many times. Bottom line is that it just wasn't appropriate Anyhow, he almost touched my private several times and that's just not okay. And as soon as I take a more firm stand on things, he acts all hurt and then starts treating me very rudely. But anywho, the past 2 to 3 ish days, we've just not been talking. Except when needed, of course. AKA he was giving me the silent treatment. I know that's bad, but I'm not sure what else I can do about it. But I continue to serve and love him and to try to improve my own faults and which I know are many. Oh, wow. Reading that in that. Yeah, reading that, it's like going back into my very indoctrinated Mormon mindset of like, you know, there must be something wrong with me and I'm the sinner. And of course he exacerbated that to the millionth degree by saying lots of terrible things to me like, no one's gonna believe you and you shouldn't do this, yada yada. Very, very much victim blaming and very much, you know, putting me through that grooming process. Right.

Carah Burrell [01:47:31] Sounds like you're trying to find the words to get through something because there's no way out. So you're like, I guess I'll just work on myself.

McKay Johnson [01:47:38] Oh, exactly. I felt very trapped. And a side note on this too. A lot of this could have been prevented if the Mormon Church taught its youth and told Mormon parents to teach their children much more clearly about sex and about consent. I did not understand consent until the MeToo movement in 2017. Like a couple years after I had gotten home from my mission and that's when I actually finally realized, oh, I was sexually abused like full on by my trainer. And we'll get to that. But.

Carah Burrell [01:48:15] But yeah, sounds like you're saying if people are taught consent to begin with, they can put up boundaries and get the blank out of there maybe before it escalates. Know that they have rights that like.

McKay Johnson [01:48:26] Yeah, exactly. That I don't. That you don't have to just sit there and turn the other cheek and take. And take it that you can. There's nothing wrong with getting angry at someone who is exhibiting predatory abusive behavior to you get pissed. Tell them no tell on them. Like tell. Tell someone in authority if you're in that kind of situation, like you. You don't have to sit there and take it and have this whole Christian martyrdom complex of I'll just let myself be abused. And I'm not trying to throw shade on, you know, Christians sincere beliefs about how Jesus was crucified and taught all those things. But I do have some strong disagreements with a lot of the kind of sacrifice and martyrdom teachings of Christianity and Mormonism in general and all the turn the other, turn the other cheek stuff and contention is of the devil. No contention will save your life. So get pissed people. That's. That's my take on that. Get pissed when you need to. I'll add that drop. Thank you.

Carah Burrell [01:49:30] Rum stick drop, all of it. Like that's. That's really well said. Thank you.

McKay Johnson [01:49:34] M. Yeah, I don't want to like. I think I've just got a couple more of these that I think would be helpful.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] They're powerful. So.

McKay Johnson [01:49:42] Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:44] You're writing this as it's happening.

McKay Johnson [01:49:45] Yeah. So I'll. I'll read a couple more of these. This One is from November 4, 2014. So just a couple weeks after the first one I just read. Anywho, I'll just start. Everything has been great as a companionship for days now until very suddenly my trainers started to be very rude again. Or at least it seemed that way. We had our last zone and district meeting for this transfer during which it seemed to me that he was very unkind towards me. Then lunch at our. At some inactive members homes with the sisters again. It seemed to me that he was rude, even saying things about me to everyone else while I was present. Well, I absolutely exploded on him a little bit after lunch in our apartment. I just let it out. We'd only stopped there to use the bathroom. But when I came out he was lying on his bed sleeping. I figured we don't, we didn't have any appointments yet for a bit. So I went and read the scriptures to give him some time. I came back and politely said, let's, let's go. I can't remember exactly what he said. I think it was like, will go when I'm ready or something like that. Well, that was the last straw for me. I just let loose. I was so, so mad. I unrailed let loose every unkind or spiteful thing he'd said to me right back at him, along with insults of my own to him. I grabbed his book that he'd begun to read while I was in the front room and declared, we're going now, and began to act toward him exactly as I'd perceived him act towards me today in the present. And before I go on with this one, just side note, like, like this is very classic. Like when you're dealing with someone like my trainer, who is very passive aggressive in addition to being a predator, you know that. And then they don't communicate if something's wrong in the relationship, like that becomes very pent up. And then that's why, you know, big outbursts like this coming from me at the time happen right now. Of course, I look back on this and think, actually that was probably really justified and it should have just stopped before it ever got to that. And I should have told the mission president and been like, I want to be transferred to, to a different companion and you need to know this, this and this about this guy. But again, you know, there's. It's very complicated. Right? And I could not have. I did not see clearly enough at the time to be able to do that. Right. So anyways, I digress. Let me continue.

Carah Burrell [01:52:15] It just sounds like either in Mormonism it's like you're either passive, passive aggressive, or you're aggressive because you're sick of passive aggressiveness.

McKay Johnson [01:52:24] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:52:24] Communication, like in an actual fruitful way. It's not even like learned sometimes we

McKay Johnson [01:52:31] don't do that here. Like, so the rest of the journal entry, vengeance felt good. I love how I refer to it as vengeance here. Anyways, vengeance felt good for a little bit. But of course the horrible real realization of my sin came to me more and more throughout today. I finally really felt the regret hit me when one of the sisters came up to me in the supermarket. We'd met up with them to get some food items and quietly said to me, hey, are you okay? Don't be offended by what he says sometimes he doesn't mean it. The culture is very, very different. Don't take anything he says like that seriously. Be patient with him. Okay, well, it was something like that, I guess. He confided in them while I was picking out fruit in the produce section a little bit away. I didn't mind. It's probably good that he did, but anywho, I felt pretty horrible. Horrible after that for the things I'd done. Spent a good deal of time in prayer after we arrived home and I apologized sincerely to him. All he said was, okay, but he just made me dinner. And as I've been sitting here writing, oh, man, why am I so bad? Then? This paragraph is important. On the other hand, however, am I really to believe that I should just take every rude, spiteful, or stupid thing he says as a joke? And it's not even always the words. It's the tone, the facial expression, the contempt and things that I feel and see. Am I to believe that I'm just taking things too seriously? Yes, yes, you are younger, McKay.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] Ah.

McKay Johnson [01:54:07] Not believe that. You are to not believe that. That's what I meant by that. Oh, my goodness. Ugh. Don't know. Don't know. But I've got to get ready for bed tomorrow and try to serve. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:20] As I'm listening, it sounds to me like he's attracted to you. He likes you, but he is suppressing and packing down those feelings.

McKay Johnson [01:54:33] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:34] And then when you aren't responsive to his advances, he's angry and hostile, and so then what you're receiving is his hostility and anger and frustration, and. And so you're trying to figure out how to respond to that. And if you're hostile back, you're feeling guilty. And so there's one. One level of just getting along that you're both kind of, you know, angry each other, but. But it's all on a foundation of him being attracted to you and wanting to kind of have some sort of relationship with you. And so that's got to be confusing for you because you're probably. Your brain is living on the level of just trying to get along and feeling guilty that you're not getting along, but the underlying tension is the sexual tension. I'm guessing he was gay. I don't know.

McKay Johnson [01:55:22] Yeah, I mean, to this. So the interesting thing is, to this day, I don't know if he actually is slash was. I have no idea what's become of him. Zero contact with him whatsoever. But, yeah, I don't know if he was actually gay or or what I mean, signs point to yes, which is a whole nother conversation that we could have about how the church teaching that homosexuality is wrong and a sin kind of fosters it doesn't excuse predatory behavior or rape or sexual abuse or assault or anything like that, but it does kind of foster environments where homosexual kids and adults in the church become so suppressed that they start feeling like the only way for them to act out on their sexual feelings is through unethical means.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] I once recently, for the first, I've always wondered, and this is a totally different subject, but I've thought about pedophilia like I can't even understand in my brain being attracted to a kid. But I had a missionary write me recently, a returned missionary, and he told me I sexually abused a kid on my mission. And he just volunteered this. He said the only way I can make sense of it is I was so sexually repressed just in my own sexuality that it came out in a really unhealthy and dysfunctional way.

McKay Johnson [01:56:42] Way.

John Dehlin [01:56:42] And this, this parallels. I think what you're saying. Yeah. Is that maybe your missionary companion was suppressed in a really unhealthy, dysfunctional way. And so it was coming out in a really unhealthy way. And of course not everybody who has attractions does. The, the vast majority of gay Mormon missionaries would never think to, to abuse or harass their companions. So straight people, gay people, you know, there are always a small amount that kind of, of screw things up this way. But. Yeah, but, but I do think it's interesting to bring up this idea of sexual repression and suppression. And does that cause a lot? I mean, obviously the Mormon Church and in Utah specifically is way over quota on sexual abuse, you know, sexual assault, etc. How much of that is tied to a culture that's just generally sexually repressed?

McKay Johnson [01:57:31] Oh yeah, no, 100%. And I don't know if you guys saw the news article, I think just a day or two ago about how many hundreds of thousands of sexual abuse cases they've kind of uncovered with, I think the Catholic Church in France. God, I wish I had read that article more than more than once. I just kind of skimmed over it really quick, but. And some people were talking about it how like, yeah, you create these hyper religious, sexually suppressive environments and it, it's like again, doesn't excuse it, but it's little wonder that then these terrible kind of monstrous predatory behaviors are kind of fostered. It kind of becomes this petri dish for those things to grow, in a sense. And it's still Very, you know, it's very sick and twisted and very complex too.

Carah Burrell [01:58:20] And then you put power imbalance in there with. Also you can only get through to salvation through shutting up. It is a mess. Like you are set up for failure. That is a problematic system every time you put that formula together.

McKay Johnson [01:58:35] Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I'm sure all. All this kind of stuff was. Was swirling around at this time for me and for him and so. So anyways, just a terrible situation all around. Right. And it, you know, just kept progressing and getting worse and worse.

Carah Burrell [01:58:50] I want to give this little elder Johnson a hug, man.

McKay Johnson [01:58:53] Yeah, well, you can give big Spartacus Johnson a hug later. But yeah, I think I've just got a couple more of these entries that are. That are shorter. Yeah. Or maybe it might just be the one more actually. Okay, maybe two more. So this one. November 15th, 2014.

Disclosing the Assault and Barriers to Reporting

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Wow.

McKay Johnson [01:59:20] I'm so amazed at how quickly something can change. Just this morning my trainer was being all nice and serving and then it all just has to come crashing down so fast. I don't know, maybe it's because of my pride, my problems, my personality, but I'm just so frustrated. He becomes so angry, annoyed, cold, self righteous so fast. I don't know what the right word is. He always says that he's not angry or whatever. Ha ha. Hard to believe. I'm so, so, so very confused. I don't know what to do. And that entry is three days before he fully sexually assaulted me for the first time. And I know that because there's an entry from that day where. And I don't say anything like I was sexually assaulted today or any. Anything like that. But that entry from three days later, November 18, 2014. I say something about I'm so grateful for Christ's atonement. I'd be lost without it. Because of course, with the whole grooming process and the way my monster of a trainer was, he immediately afterwards made me feel like, you know, oh, we'd better repent because we have sinned. Like he said something to that effect afterwards. And it's hard to remember the exact words because it's a very traumatic experience.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] So he. He assaulted you?

McKay Johnson [02:00:51] Yeah, so bit. So what happened was. It was. It was a P day. We got home after running a bunch of errands. We were tired. I laid down on my bed to I think take a nap, which missionaries often do on P days. And he got on me and I froze up, which I have since learned is a pretty common thing. I was so. And he didn't like physically hold me down or tie me down. I was just so tired of being so mentally and emotionally worn down and told day in, day out that I was the sinner, that I was not a good disciple of Jesus for nothing. Getting angry at him so many times and pushing him so many times. And there was one occasion where he was trying to do something actually not sexually related, but something like that would, would be breaking rules. And I was like, no, we're not going to do that. And he tried to do it. And I literally. So I wrestled in high school a little bit. I literally took him down to the ground, like hard, like was afraid I may have broken his arm, but thankfully didn't or maybe I wish I would have, I don't know. And got him in a wrestling hold and for like 15, 20 minutes held him there until he was like, okay, fine, we won't do that, we won't break those rules or whatever. Can't even remember exactly what it was. But like, yeah, so anyways, I digress. So this day where he actually sexually assaulted me fully for the first time, he just, you know, got on my bed and I was laying there and I was so exhausted mentally, emotionally, physically and so alone and just in this pit of despair that no one would believe me, which he had said many times. And I just, I, I guess kind of just gave up, froze up and was just like, I guess this is, this, this is what it's gonna be, you know,

John Dehlin [02:02:42] and somebody, somebody would think just not, not living the experience. Oh well, you're gonna, you're going to immediately call your zone leaders, you can immediately call your mission president. And then you write this down, my journal. I was sexually assaulted today by my companion. But they don't understand what's going through a Mormon missionary's brain.

McKay Johnson [02:03:01] Nope, exactly. They don't understand. And you know, these con. When I've shared about some of my experiences with this on Tick Tock, there are some very brain dead comments that are, that are similar to that where people are like, you know, you chose to be there or you were 18. Like a person's age has nothing to do with whether or not they can be sexually assaulted or sexually abused. People get real. Oh my God. And again, what I said earlier about not really having been taught by the church about what consent really is. Anything other than an enthusiastic yes is not consent. Right. So you know, that's, that's kind of what happened. And then all these things where he's making me feel like it's my fault too. Are Going through my head. And so that's why, you know, that journal entry from that day. I know it's the day I was sexually assaulted for the first time, because I know it was a p day. And I wrote about how I'm so grateful for the atonement and that I can be forgiven of sins. Yeah. And then. And after that, it happened multiple more times. You know, I couldn't put an exact number on it, but it. You know, it was. It was more than once. And. And again, it was just. At. After that point, it was just kind of like I was so depressed and felt so alone, and, like, I had zero power to do anything about it, short of, like, you know, like, hurting him or killing him, and then I would be the bad guy in that case was kind of how he had manipulated me to believe that. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] And again, what kept you from just going to your mission president and saying, this guy's doing this.

McKay Johnson [02:04:50] Oh, okay. Thank you for reminding me of that, because this is where my arrival in the mission comes into play. What kept me from going to my mission president? Good man, But a very, like. But he was a very, like, formal. I kind of want to say cold personality. So the fact that he didn't so much as shake my hand or give me a hug when I first arrived in the mission had a huge psychological effect on me that I didn't really recognize at the time. But it's so obvious to me now. Like, yeah, I didn't feel. I didn't feel like I could go and talk to. To my mission president about it because of that. Because I feel like. Felt like he didn't really know me. I didn't really know him. I didn't feel like I could fully trust him. And beyond that, the things that my mission trainer said to me about, like, no one will believe you. And honestly, that was kind of believable because I did not have mastery of Portuguese yet, and he had been in the country for over a year, so he definitely did. And one of the major things that played through my mind was, if you tell anyone about this, he's gonna make up some elaborate story and tell them that you're lying, and they're gonna believe him over you. And honestly, that's probably true. Like, they probably would have believed him over me. And post mission, the things I've heard and learned about the response that some church leaders and the church in general has had to sexual abuse survivors, which is appalling and disgusting. It just reinforces that belief that had I told my mission President at the time, I would have been blamed just as much as my trainer, which, which is really sad, you know.

John Dehlin [02:06:32] So I just want to say for, for Mormon women, they're going to be like, yeah, that's what happens. But Mormon men are like, oh no, no, no, he's gonna believe you, right?

Carah Burrell [02:06:40] Right, yeah, I mean, yeah, anything to kind of keep the good name that. I mean, the things that are kind of coming to my mind when you're talking about just your mission in general, it's like any hardship on the mission can be overcome with the atonement of Jesus Christ, with the faith in Jesus Christ, like you can learn a frickin second language with like faith in Jesus Christ, like anything is possible. It's a secret sauce that's like brings the glue to get the glue that brings everything together, you know.

McKay Johnson [02:07:07] You know that secret sauce really is. It was me carrying a pocket dictionary around with me everywhere and writing down every damn new word I heard and just like studying my ass off to learn a new language in a short amount of time.

Carah Burrell [02:07:17] And for that you get the kudos. Thanks. Not the secret sauce of Jesus Christ, I'm sorry, but like that I think there's just this perception in the church that like, oh no, Mormon missionaries are good people. There's some bad apples out there, but no, no, no, no, like Jesus, because they're serving the Lord, they're doing the right thing, they're out there. Our missionaries would never do something like that. And anyone who does that'll get nipped in the bud for sure. Like if you told your mission president, of course, like everything would, everyone would believe you because they have the spirit of discernment. And I just think in a Mormon system they think that things will work out for the good because it's the true church. And if your president has the spirit of discernment, he would be able to tell who's lying and stuff. But the real word doesn't work that way. The real word, real world, does not work that way.

McKay Johnson [02:08:06] Nope. And spirit. Not to be insulting, but spirit of discernment my ass. There was so much stuff that went on in my mission specifically and probably other missions too. But in my mission there's so much that went on under my first mission president's nose that he never had any clue about. Like not so much as a whiff. Even when with some people straight up telling him, like, hey, there's a group of missionaries who have basically like made themselves into a secret combination. Yes, this really happened, like, and he didn't Believe them when they. They told him that. So for people who don't know what

Carah Burrell [02:08:41] that means, what do you mean by, like, they made themselves into. It's a Book of Mormon reference. But I would. I'm curious. Would you mind explaining that?

McKay Johnson [02:08:49] Yeah, well, can I jump to that in just a second? Because there's one more thing I wanted to say regarding abuse survivors and specifically women. So ever since, like, me too. And I feel like as a society, we're moving closer to everyone understanding consent better. Obviously, there's still plenty of people out there who don't, judging from some of the dumb comments on my TikToks. But, like, to anyone who says to a woman or any sexual abuse survivor, like, well, why didn't you come forward in the beginning? Like, you're just trying to get attention now. Like, that didn't happen. First of all, you would not have the balls to say that to my face or their faces. Second of all, you are wrong. You have no idea if you say that. You have no fucking clue what it is like to be a survivor of abuse and specifically sexual abuse and sexual assault. So stop saying that kind of bullshit. Listen to survivors, listen to our stories, because we're not. It boggles my mind. I don't understand how people would think that I would go on TikTok and now hear on Mormon stories and just very publicly talk about the fact that I was sexually abused, knowing full well that there are going to be people who say, I don't believe you. And some people have said really, like, really hurtful things like, oh, you were a wimp, or you're a weak man, like, you're not a real man or whatever, which is part of the unique stigmas that I think male survivors face. But we can get into that later. You know, all survivors face that by coming forward, coming forward about sexual assault, even though we know we've done nothing wrong and that we are the victim, the survivor in that instance, it's not fun. So, yeah, don't say that shit anymore, people. Just stop it. It's 2021, for God's sake. Anywho, continuing.

Carah Burrell [02:10:44] Yeah, thank you for speaking up and saying those things because, yeah, I can't wait to get into just. I want to break down that stigma. And it's really unfortunate that those people say things about it. And there's something you said earlier that's just sticking in my brain where you said that you are so mentally or psychologically fragile. And I think that's the missing piece with people who are struggling to find Empathy for people in your situation, male or female, that like, like walk in somebody's shoes until after they get groomed so that they are in a different psychological place, they have different brain chemistry, they've been through different conditioning that you simply have not been through. And to speak to their experience that you have never been through. You do not understand the fragility of what they. The situation they were put in. You do not know how you would act. You do not know what to judge. It's probably smarter just to shut up. It's probably smarter just to believe people. It's probably smarter just to lead with empathy and not like, I need to be the one that's like calling out somebody that you should have done more. It's like, what are you to gain? Like, what are the people who comment such cruel things when you are so vulnerable on your TikTok and probably on this YouTube video. I would just hope that anyone who's listening to this would think twice place about what is there to gain when they have such harsh commentary on what sexual assault survivors have experienced. But you have so much, you have so much to gain as a listener to your story. People listening to McKay's story, you have so much to gain. And it's called empathy. And it's called, you never know if your spouse, your child is going to come to you one day. And they know that you're the type of person who leads with empathy when they hear sexual assault survivors. So just like, if you hear, if you have a child that might come out gay one day, you might know somebody who's gay, you might know somebody who suffered through sexual assault. Wouldn't that be nice if the people in your circle know that you're the type of person that, that listened to McKay Johnson's story on Mormon stories and you talked about it at the dinner table and you talked about consent and everyone in your circle knows that you, that you belong to the cause of empathy instead of like, I heard a story on TikTok today and I made sure to comment that this person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I just really think people should think twice and be more intentional because we're talking about people's mental health, we're talking about trauma and not trying to repeat cycles and stuff. And wouldn't you rather be part of a cause for like, helping prevent these things by talking about them instead of just being like, stick in the mud is not even a good enough analogy. But just being like a really, like, I don't. If I, I don't Want to get too mean, but trying not to swear. But you know what you are. If. If you are the type of person who needs to be constantly telling survivors that that's they should have done something differently or like, da, da, da. It comes down to mental fragility to me. Like, that's just. I am not a PhD. I do not have the type of clinical training and background that John or other people that might. Listening to this. This is just kind of what's rolling off the top of my head. Um.

McKay Johnson [02:13:58] Oh, you're. You're absolutely right with all that, though.

Carah Burrell [02:14:01] Yeah. And so anything else you want to speak to about. Yeah, that experience?

McKay Johnson [02:14:05] Um, yeah, not too much. At least not in that. In that time period.

John Dehlin [02:14:11] How did things resolve?

McKay Johnson [02:14:12] How did.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] You were just transferred or.

McKay Johnson [02:14:14] Well, yeah. So how did things resolve? Oh, this is a really quick, important aside, too, for male abuse survivors. Just because you got an erection does not mean you consented. That is very important for male sexual abuse survivors to understand. And for people who maybe don't understand male sexual abuse to understand, physical, chemical reactions are not the same as, like, mental, emotional, verbal consent. So anyways, and that's got to be

John Dehlin [02:14:42] confusing because if he's assaulting you and you. You don't want it, but your body's reacting in a certain way. That's.

McKay Johnson [02:14:50] Yeah. Just confusing, literally.

John Dehlin [02:14:51] Why.

McKay Johnson [02:14:51] Why is that stimulation, like. Yeah. And that's.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] I mean, obviously, if. If you can arouse yourself.

McKay Johnson [02:14:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Another. I mean, technically, an inanimate object, if it's, you know, could arouse you stiff.

Carah Burrell [02:15:05] Breathe.

John Dehlin [02:15:05] So it doesn't.

Carah Burrell [02:15:06] Like, I've heard stories.

John Dehlin [02:15:07] Yeah. So it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be even a guy, like, you know. But anyway, it's gotta be confusing.

McKay Johnson [02:15:13] Yes. No, it definitely was. And it even made me question for a little bit, like, am I gay? Like, and I've, you know, really come to terms with that. I'm not. I'm very, very straight and very much only attracted to women. Also a huge ally to the LGBT community, which we'll get into soon. But. But I mean, through that experience, that definitely kind of ingrained some pretty powerful homophobia in me for many years, aside from just the church's teachings on homosexuality and all of that stuff. Right. But, yeah. So how it kind of resolved was I did eventually end up getting transferred to a new area after.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] But you'd never told your mission president ever.

McKay Johnson [02:15:54] Not my first mission president.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] Okay. Okay.

McKay Johnson [02:15:57] So I had two mission presidents, and my mission was about equally split between each of Them. So by the time I'd been on my mission for eight, nine months, I got called to be an AP assistant to the president during the last transfer of my first president's mission. So mission president served for three years and so he was on the very tail end of that. And so I was the last new assistant that he, that he called. And I think the youngest that he ever. Trying to put my journal away. I think the youngest assistant that he ever called during his time as a mission president, which kind of earned me this, I feel like undeserved reputation in the mission of a lot of missionaries kind of hating me just because, I don't know, they thought I was like this goody good who. I don't know, I got a lot of hate for that kind of stuff. I'm like, this is stuff I can't even control, guys. I'm really just trying to, to do the, do what we all supposedly believe in out here and trying to help people and help you guys as well. So anyways, it's hard to imagine you

Carah Burrell [02:17:06] as a goody two shoes though, right?

McKay Johnson [02:17:09] Because I'm such a baddie now.

Carah Burrell [02:17:11] No, you're sweetheart one way or another, but.

McKay Johnson [02:17:13] Well, I appreciate that, but just all

Carah Burrell [02:17:15] clean cut like in your suit and tie in Brazil.

McKay Johnson [02:17:19] Well, if you guys, if you guys want a picture of Baby Missionary McKay to show people for the YouTube video of this, you know, I can send one. But yeah, it's definitely a very different look, the short hair, clean cut suits and all that. So anyways, so yeah, I was called to be an assistant to the president. I'd been out for about nine months at that point. And then with being called to the office, especially during a time where there was about to be a transfer of mission presidents, there was a shit ton of responsibility placed on me and my companion, Elder Pereira, who to this day will always be one of my best friends, whether we're both in or out of the church or whatever he's in right now, I'm out. Like, love that guy so much. We went through a lot together and we were actually companions for six months, which is a lot longer than most missionary companionships ever go. So anyways, we, you know, were these two like 19 year old guys that are just having all this responsibility placed on us. And since we were in the office with access to personal computers, I eventually started looking at pornography again. As ap, as ap, I know you're on your mission.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Wow. Wow. I mean, it's gotta happen. We've had bishops.

McKay Johnson [02:18:34] Crazy, right?

Carah Burrell [02:18:35] But.

McKay Johnson [02:18:35] And I Felt so terrible for that. I mean, I remember after the first time it happened, and I was like, oh, my gosh, like, what have I done? Like, the spirit is going to cease to strive with me. I won't be able to teach. Like, the mission is going to fall apart. I'm gonna be sent home. If I tell my. All these crazy thoughts going through my head.

Carah Burrell [02:18:54] Then you realized how to clear the browser history. I'm just kidding. How did you.

McKay Johnson [02:18:58] Well, I already knew how to do that from a team.

Carah Burrell [02:18:59] I know.

McKay Johnson [02:19:00] Let's be real.

Carah Burrell [02:19:01] Oh, the whole world's gonna come crashing down unless anyone finds out. That's really intense. Like, you must felt like you were like Satan incarnate.

McKay Johnson [02:19:09] Yeah, well, and that was already. And that was just simply compounding all the gifts and shame that I already felt from the sexual abuse, which I had been made to feel like was my fault. Right.

Carah Burrell [02:19:19] Yeah, that's definitely a common theme, I mean, amongst sexual assault survivors or anything, where you just feel like you're dirty, broken, like, what's the point?

McKay Johnson [02:19:26] Yep, all those things.

John Dehlin [02:19:27] I mean, when I was a missionary, porn didn't exist because the Internet didn't exist in any way. But it's gotta be hard to be sexualized by your companion and to not be able to get a therapist, to be able to get PTSD treatment or to even be able to tell anyone. So now you're ap. And you. You've been effectively assaulted and sexualized. I mean, that's got to make it. So you're thinking about it all the time, right?

McKay Johnson [02:19:54] No, exactly. And actually, I remember after. After the first assault happened, I, like, probably only a few weeks after, and when I had been transferred to my second area in my mission, I started occasionally masturbating again. And I was like, why is this happening? Like, I did so good for like a year. Literally for a year before going on my mission, I didn't look at any porn or masturbate, like, even once. Like, I had a girlfriend, we'd make out and stuff, but if it got too hot and heavy, like, both of us would be like, okay, we need to stop. You know, we never like, touched each other in any way that would have, like, gotten us to have to stop taking the sacrament or anything like that. Like, I was so committed to the mission. And so, like you're saying, John, thank you. Thank you for saying that. After being sexualized by my trainer, like, all this stuff is kind of coming back up and, you know, so fast forward to where I'm in the office with computer Access. I start looking at pornography again, and all these things are going through my head like, I am the worst. Like, I am going to go to hell for this. I'm going to be sent home. I'm sure of it. Like, so I was, for the better part of a year, I was just in this mental hell. There's no other way for me to describe it other than it was mental hell. It sucked. And our first mission president went home. Second mission president arrived. Totally different vibe, very different guy, very warm personality. Like, first thing he said when he saw us was like, yay, cara. Which is Portuguese for, what's up, dude? Which the funny thing about our first mission president, he was so, like, formal and cold and whatnot that he would say, like, it is not becoming of a servant of the Lord to use the word dude. And so, literally, the first thing our new mission president says in front of our old mission president, as they're kind of meeting and exchanging info, is, what's up, dudes? It's totally like, oh, this is a change of pace for sure. And so I actually, in a lot of ways, both mission presidents still love them both. I think they're both great humans who are, again, products of a bad system, doing the best they can with what they could. But my second mission president, especially, I kind of have a bit more of a soft spot for, because he was the first person that I was eventually able to tell about the abuse. That being said, because of how manipulated I had been by my trainer, I didn't really phrase it like, oh, I was abused. So what ended up happening was after he had been in the mission for about a month, I was feeling all this guilt and shame inside, and I just went and eventually confessed. At first, just, hey, I looked at pornography and I was, like, in tears, like, confessing this to him. And he, like, put his hand on my shoulder and he's like, all right, go and sin no more. And I'm just like, you're not sending me home. And he, like, laughed, and he's like, no, I need you, man.

Carah Burrell [02:22:53] Dude, I like this dude.

McKay Johnson [02:22:54] Yeah. No, he, like, in a lot of ways, he was really great and a great guy, but it still took me probably a couple more months before I eventually. Well, I didn't even go to him about this. In my mind. I had thought, I am never going to tell anybody, not a single soul in the whole world what happened with my trainer. I felt so much shame and so much, like, just mental darkness about it. Like, no way. Not a chance in hell is anyone ever going to find out about it? Well, he calls me into his office one day and he asks me point blank, what can you tell me about? And he names my trainer. And I'm like, oh, well, he was this and that. You know, he was a good trainer. He had some issues with rule breaking. And then he asks me, did he ever try anything sexual with you? And at the time, I took that as spirit of discernment. Oh my gosh. What it turns out it actually was is there are other missionaries, like multiple in my mission who had been abused not just by my trainer, but also by some other missionaries who are around his age, like abusing other missionaries in my arrival group and or close to our age, like trainers and trainees specifically. It breaks my heart to think about that and that I was not the only one. Like, it's kind of comforting knowing, like, I'm not the only one. And, you know, I want people listening to my story to know, like, you're not the only one if you've gone through any sort of abuse or going through it. But at the same time, it is heartbreaking to know that this is such a widespread thing for women and for men, for everyone. And so he asks me that and I just like, eyes wide as dinner plates, I'm just like, how did you know? And this is where kind of the taking advantage of the whole priesthood power complex comes in. And he's kind of like, I've told you before, my friend, I've got the spirit. I've, I've got the keys to the mission. The spirit tells me things. I'm sure someone told him some things about either my trainer and, or other trainers. And he decided, you know what, I need to ask people about this because this is obviously a huge issue. And so breaking down sobbing, just absolutely weeping, he kind of had to coax it out of me. It was so traumatic. And so I was filled with so much shame about it that I couldn't really even bring myself to say the words, kind of what had happened and made even worse by the fact that I still blamed myself at the time and kind of thought like, oh, I guess in some way it must have been my fault. So it was more phrasing it more like, well, like we kind of like had some sexual relations in a way. And so he kind of had to coax that out of me and I break down crying and he's like, okay, I'm going to have to talk with the area presidency about this. I'm going to fast for you. And we're going to figure things out. And that was all he said at the time, from what I remember at least. And this is another issue that I'm pretty passionate about with the church, and that's that people, youth, young adults, et cetera, shouldn't be confessing or talking with untrained church leaders about like deep sexual trauma and sexual issues. Because in my, from my perspective now, if my mission president had been like a trained therapist, he would have recognized immediately, even from the way I phrase things, that it was very clearly non consensual and that I had been groomed and abused. And I know, you know, I'm not saying that to try and throw shade on him. I do think he was doing the best he could with the kind of the knowledge and training that he had. But there's definitely a lack of training and knowledge for church leaders across the board in that regard. And I definitely have a huge issue with people in power, leaders in power in the church, telling like, or asking people in their congregation or their stake or what or their mission or whatever, like about sexual history and stuff. That is stuff that should only be discussed with a therapist, in my view. And like, I suppose people that you really trust that are close to you. So yeah, he said that. Then we went to lunch that day and I was just like crying off and on the whole time. And my companion is just kind of like, what? What on earth is going on? You know, And I never really told him all the details of it, but I did tell him, like, well, elder, I may be sent home. I'm not sure. You know, two weeks go by, during which time we just kind of continue with a normal assistant to the president, missionary life, teaching, traveling, giving trainings and stuff. And eventually, like, it's eating me up inside. So I go into my mission president's office one day. I'm like, can we talk? He's like, yeah, sure. And like, just the two of us? And he's like, yeah, okay. And I asked him, so what's gonna happen with me? And he tells me that he had talked with the area presidency. So like, Claudio Costa at the time was the area president. So he's a general authority, 70 to this day, I think. Right.

Guilt, Shame, and Institutional Response

John Dehlin [02:28:30] Isn't he an apostle now?

McKay Johnson [02:28:33] Oh, yeah, he might be. And I don't know. I can't remember now if he was the Brazil area president at the time or not. I think he was, but I'd have to double check on that. Pretty sure he was. And so anyways, long story short, my mission president had talked with him and told me that they were going to get in touch with my trainer's stake president, because my trainer was long gone, long out of the mission, long since had gone back home before my second mission president ever got there.

John Dehlin [02:29:03] I don't think he's an apostle. I got that wrong.

McKay Johnson [02:29:05] Oh, okay. But, but, but. So anyways, he, he told. One win from this was my mission president told me, yeah, they're going to make sure he never has any sort of calling with youth or kids ever. And, you know, small comfort, but at least there's that.

Carah Burrell [02:29:28] So weird to hear, like, on the heels of Mark Oslin's, like, excommunication potentially coming up. Just the things that the church gets really angry about. It's like he shouldn't have a calling or whatever, but like, they'll excommunicate people who do, you know, talking back or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:29:41] So, no, I mean, Sam Young tells, you know, Sam Young speaks up about childhood sexual abuse and he's excommunicated. An actual abuser of children, or in your case, of missionaries. No action, no discipline? Is that what you're saying?

McKay Johnson [02:29:58] I'm not sure. I heard from. I heard down the grapevine somewhere towards the end of my mission that he had been excommunicated. I don't know if that's true. I actually, before coming in for this, I recently messaged my second mission president, who is the one that knows about all this stuff on. On Facebook messenger. I was like, hey, long time no talk. And I mean, he knows that I've. Oh, I don't want to get things away, but he knows that I'm not active in the church anymore. And so anyways, he was excited to talk to me briefly, but I just asked him, like, hey, do you know what happened with my trainer, the one who. And I just said it straight up, the one who abused me. And his response was, I don't know what happened with him. I'm sorry. But I did hear rumors that he had been excommunicated. I don't know if that's true or not. You know, if he was awesome. If he wasn't, unfortunately, I guess I wouldn't be that surprised, given the church's

John Dehlin [02:30:54] track record, even, even that if, if someone's excommunicated for apostasy, just for an apostasy. When I say apostasy, we mean speaking the truth about the problems of the church being critical. Yeah, yeah, It's. It's made a. It's, it's. It's made public in a very serious way. If someone's a sexual abuser, you never know. It's kept quiet. Yeah. For the most part.

Carah Burrell [02:31:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Which allows abusers to continue abusing.

McKay Johnson [02:31:22] Wasn't there like a church hotline in like the 80s or something that people would call, like sexual abuse survivors who are members of the church would call and it was basically so they could

John Dehlin [02:31:32] shut them up or that's still, that's still going on.

McKay Johnson [02:31:35] Oh my God.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] The sexual abuse hotline that bishops have calls Kurt McConkey. And it's not to provide, it's not

McKay Johnson [02:31:42] a therapist, it's that it's the legal team of the church. It's God, the church.

John Dehlin [02:31:46] Damage do, do damage control, not to provide relief to the abused. I, yeah, that's still the truth.

McKay Johnson [02:31:53] I, I wow. I, I hate that so much.

Carah Burrell [02:31:58] Let me lessen your hatred by throwing in a joke that anytime somebody brings up Kurt McConkey. I just like to say my face is on the Internet a lot. I get a lot of comments on my nose that it's true. My nose is very crooked because I got it from Curtin McConkey. I got it from the church.

McKay Johnson [02:32:18] So nuance ho everyone.

Carah Burrell [02:32:19] That's all I need to say. It's just, it's so crooked. It's so wrong. And to John's point too is like as any child, adult, man, woman, child that has been a victim of sexual abuse within the church, whatever leadership structure you want to call it, wouldn't that be nice? Hey church, I'm giving you some free advice here. Wouldn't that be so nice though if something is wrong that the church is Johnny on the spot to let everyone know that we excommunicate people who are abusers within our church, that that's what they want. That's what you should be known for Church. Like I do believe the church can teach good things and they have good people in it of like, wouldn't it be so nice to know that justice was somewhat served in a way that like your mission president was on top of it that told that your companions, you know, homeward, wherever it is, that he was absolutely put through a excommunication and that he was never allowed to like holding, holding callings in the church, that there's more than one way to abuse somebody without having to hold on calling in the church like you can obviously still have access to if you are exhibiting predatory behaviors that really doesn't feel like any kind of justice would have been served. So wouldn't have just to give you a peace of mind that like yes what happened to you was wrong and that there are people within the church who agree and that they're going to do something about it, but instead it's just, they don't want to talk about it. They sweep it under the rug. Like what would you, what in your mind? The. Given that there's predators within the church who have access to people, like I was saying, with fragile mindsets, what would you have hoped, the best case scenario that the church would have done?

Advice for Survivors and Speaking Out

McKay Johnson [02:34:00] Oh, best case scenario, I would have hoped that like a, yeah, they would have excommunicated the bastard that that B, they would try and pursue some sort of legal case. I know that's difficult when with sexual abuse cases where it's very much after the fact, which is very common unfortunately, because of how often survivors are shamed and whatnot and are just kept in fear. But like, you know, best case scenario, yeah, they would have like excommunicated him, maybe pursued some sort of legal action. Definitely barred him for sure from ever holding any sort of calling or probably even rejoining the church and like being able to, never being able to be around kids or youth or young adults or whatever. And that they would tell the survivors that. They would have told me, hey, this is what's happened, you know, that would definitely give at least some peace of mind. But they don't do that, that they care. They have this hotline for their legal. Ah, yeah, that's, that's extremely frustrating. So, and my heart goes out to all the other abuse survivors that like, like have been through that shit. It's, it's, it's really up.

Carah Burrell [02:35:12] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [02:35:12] No better way to put it than that in my mind.

Carah Burrell [02:35:14] So yeah, well said. And we talk a lot about how it's not helpful just to be outraged for outrage sake. So I know for sure I, maybe we can, we can do this at the end. And I just want to take a brief second to pause to have people who are listening to just like to think about how to validate people who might have been in their life sexual assault survivors. And I, I, we're going to get into talking about like your internalized homophobia and all these things that just within the church that condition us to put faith and devotion into the structure of the church before people is.

McKay Johnson [02:35:56] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:35:57] So much of like what the mission, mission culture and Mormon culture I think just necessitates is that you give your devotion to God in front of people. And that's something I think is post Mormons for me and anyone else listening in the church outside the Church of, like, where is your devotion truly? If it's. If it's to a God, that's okay with this type of structure in a church, like, reevaluate, maybe those kinds of things, like, reevaluate the type of God that you worship that cares more about obedience and conformity and people keeping people quiet. And it's not until Sam Young has his marches, and it's not until. Until people start pushing for change and, you know, reformations within the church. Like, it's like, there's so much baggage that Mormons condition us with, whether it's homophobia, whether it's just, you know, not asking for consent. There's just so many things that I hope that we. We're not just, like, listening to McKay's story at, like, oh, that was a bad thing that happened, but it's an isolated incident. That it's. It's. It. It tells a story of a wider structure is just kind of the point I'm trying to make.

McKay Johnson [02:36:59] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [02:37:00] And then that I, as a woman in Mormonism, that I was, like, complicit in my own internalized sexism towards myself. So, like, what is that? Either you're in the church or out of the church, like, what is that? That is still baggage that you're carrying that is not useful here for yourself or the people around you. And it's still just serving, like, a really kind of demented God that just cares about obedience and conformity more than people. So that makes sense.

McKay Johnson [02:37:26] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:37:26] So just, like, what can we do with, like, what can people actually do now that they're. Instead of just being outraged, you know, like, what reflections would you hope that people, like, take from your story? I guess.

McKay Johnson [02:37:35] Well, I think, you know, in general, just how to respond to, like, sexual abuse survivors. You know, never ever, like, say or ask, like, well, what were you doing? Or what were you wearing? Just, first of all, probably tell them, like, thank you so much for trusting me enough to share your story with me, because as a survivor, I can tell you it is not easy. It's still not easy for me to talk about this, but I've talked about it enough to the point where, like, I can do it and I'm fine. Like, I'm not sitting here breaking down crying, maybe getting a little emotional at points, but so that's. That's number one. Also tell people, I believe you and Mormon church leaders. Please do that. Like, and, I don't know, just people in the church and out of the church, like, keep up the pressure on church leaders. Both in the Mormon Church and in other religions in general. Because I think a lot of organized religions kind of have these similar problems to change. And don't be afraid to question. As soon as there's a system in place where they tell you that it's not okay to question or to criticize and seek to better the system, then you know there's a problem with that system, and that is Mormonism to a T. Dallin H. Oaks himself said it is wrong to criticize church leaders even if the criticism is correct. Right. And that to me just screams like, I don't know, dictatorships. Like, obviously what I would call true, unrighteous dominion, you know, holding power and very manipulative power over people, I would say. So keep questioning, keep pressuring. You know, use that outrage to make change. And Mormon Church listens to people's wallets. So if you have to, you know, I don't know, this is going to seem extreme to a lot of Mormon listeners, but don't pay your tithing until they make those changes. Like, I know most active Mormons would probably hear me say that and, and are going to be like, no, not doing that. But just to kind of illustrate, there's a lot of things that can be done to seek change. You know, seek for there to be better training for church leaders. And also Mormon church stop having people, especially youth and kids, confess things of a sexual nature or talk about that shit at all with leaders, with old men that they don't know that are not their parents. That's not okay. You know, if an adult who has fully informed consent chooses that they want to do that, then that's one thing. But like most bishops, you know, stake presidents, they're not trained therapists. They don't know how to respond to cases of assault and abuse and rape. And my second mission president's response to me telling him about my abuse is case in point, because as I said, a trained therapist would have easily recognized that as abuse and let me know that and been like, hey, you did. You did nothing wrong. You're not at fault here. This is not your fault. Several therapists post mission have told me that. So I don't think I'm, you know, saying anything too crazy by. By saying that if he had been a trained therapist, it would have been a bit different and I wouldn't have gone on for several more years carrying around this unnecessary shame and guilt for being abused. Yeah, sounds like that's kind of my rant.

Carah Burrell [02:41:14] Good rant, thanks. Well said. Needs to be said because it sounds like you're saying that, like, you were carrying all of this around for so many years because you're. I don't know if it was just. Yeah, going back to, like, how you're not really taught what consent is and what your boundary should be, but the fact that you went around for so many years not knowing exactly what lines and what abuse was and things like that. So it sounds like you're saying that, like, this is a hard topic for you to cover, but you're standing up and you're here and you talk about it on tick tock because, like, not another single person should ever have to carry that for years and years. You should know immediately that you're valuable, that you have worth, and that the church, whether it's somebody telling you that looking at porn makes you evil, or whether it's somebody telling you that you liked it or somebody telling you, like, that you were complicit in your own abuse or things like that, that, like, no, that's B.S.

McKay Johnson [02:42:11] yep.

Carah Burrell [02:42:11] Like, so where, where do you get your strength to actually speak out about it? Because this is super. This is super difficult things to talk about. Like, where do you get the strength to even have the words for it?

McKay Johnson [02:42:21] Yeah, that is kind of a tough question to answer because I'm not sure. Not sure I fully know where I've gotten this strength to be able to speak out about it. But I guess just seeing, having my eyes opened with the MeToo movement to how, how widespread the issue of sexual abuse is was definitely one step in the right direction towards me. A, just sharing my story at all with people and B, eventually getting to the point where I felt like I would start sharing it very publicly on TikTok and now here, because I felt the strength. I mean, I felt my heart breaking, but also the strength from hearing other survivors stories and hearing them all uniting together. And I think like I said before, you know, light drives out darkness. Right. And to me, light is connection. Light is truth and honesty and being open and not Curtin McConkey brushing things under the rug, but rather being very vocal about things, you know, so, sorry, I'm not sure if that answers that question.

Carah Burrell [02:43:40] Yeah, the, the more people that speak out and they say this happened to me and yeah, if, if one person does it, that kind of can validate people who are not ready to share their stories or actually like, acknowledge maybe the trauma and unpack those things and find a therapist. But yeah, at least acknowledging that like, one person is a light, another person is a brighter light, and the more people that can like come together and say, this is wrong. Church culture needs to change. We need to practice and have an understanding of consent. Like, so that's where like I was when you started sharing your story on Tick Tock and you were up for like, people can just go into the comments. You'll be up on somebody's for you page. And now it's like your abuse is almost debatable. Like, that's so hard. Yeah. Like, that takes so much strength to put yourself out there.

McKay Johnson [02:44:27] Well, and also, you know, time, there's the saying that I kind of agree with, which is time heals all wounds. I would add time with therapy can heal all wounds because if you just never address certain core wounds that you have or traumas that you have that they're not just going to magically heal themselves no matter how long it's been since the traumatic event or events happened. Right. So one thing I shared, kind of add almost as a disclaimer for anyone watching this who is an abuse survivor, is that it's been what is 2021 now? So my, my abuse happened in 2014. So it's been seven years for one, for two. I've gone to a lot of therapy this past year for three. I mean, my personality has always been kind of outspoken. I mean, I'm, I'm a performer. Like, getting up in front of people doesn't really scare me, you know, playing whether I'm playing to a crowd of 10 or 10,000, like music and whatnot. And obviously that's different from getting up and publicly sharing your story of being sexually assaulted. But I think that kind of being a performer in a sense has helped me. Like, I don't have like stage fright or fear of public speaking or fear of just being in front of a lot of people. Right. Or being public about my life in certain ways. But you don't have to be like a performer, a musician like me in order to share your story. And you also don't have to share it like on TikTok or whatever. Right. I think there's a, there's a couple other things that probably were the final kickers for me to more publicly share about my sexual abuse on TikTok. But I think those don't really come into play until later in my story with, with, you know, the two kind of catalysts for me to really start a tick tock in the first place.

Carah Burrell [02:46:24] So we'll get to those, we'll get to those. And I think, yeah, there's something to be said for like being a performer and maybe you're not afraid to just be in front of people, but I am too. And like, that's why I just wanted to like really like applaud your bravery in speaking about this, especially as a man. Because, like, I dodged hardcore when John was asking me about like my sexual abuse and I dodged that in my Mormon stories interview because I was just like, I'm healed but I'm not in a place where I want to talk about it because I don't ever for the. I would probably die if somebody wanted to debate with me what happened to me and tell me, blah, blah, you know what I mean? Just have that open for discussion. It's just you invite a lot of like, yeah, low caliber people into the comment section. I know that it could help people maybe, but it's also so hard because then your abuse is just kind of up for debate of this public sphere. So that's why I just really want to thank you so much for sharing that really traumatic episode part of your life there.

McKay Johnson [02:47:30] Yeah, well, thank you for saying that, Carah. And for what it's worth, I'm really sorry for you having gone through any sort of sexual abuse too. No one deserves it. Absolutely no one deserves it. It's God awful and it's kind of being sexually abused is like soul crushing in a way, I think because that part of us as humans is something that's very intimate and it's us at our most vulnerable is when we are being sexual. And for that to be just kind of ripped away from us without our consent is not cool in any way, shape or form and it's monstrous. So, yeah, I'm never going to stop at this point. I'm always going to continue to be standing up and telling people about, not just about my sexual abuse in general, but just about sexual abuse for all people and how to kind of recognize patterns of grooming and manipulation and patterns of abuse and how we can break free of those and break the stupid stigmas that surround it for both women and men, some of which are the same and some of which are unique to women and some are unique to men. Right. Who've been survivors of abuse. So it almost feels like, I don't know, a new quote, unquote mission, I guess, that I have in life to help people with that and I embrace that because I've even in the short time I've been on TikTok, the small avalanche of DMs I've received from people saying thank you for sharing your story has really opened my eyes to how helpful it is to be public and how empowering it is to people to have someone out there who's kind of being a voice for them. And there are some creators who I feel that way about, which again, I'll get into later, who hearing their story was very empowering for me. So.

Carah Burrell [02:49:33] So trolls be damned.

McKay Johnson [02:49:35] Trolls be damned. Fuck em. I don't care. Like, it hurts a little bit when they say dumb things, but at the end of the day, like, I think I've been through enough therapy and had enough time to where I'm in a good enough mental, mental space where I see those comments and I'm like, ooh, this person's very ignorant. And now I get to make a fun clap back and call them a paramecium brain or whatever it may be. And also I think since, spoiler alert, since leaving the church, like, I've learned to be okay with leaning into my rage a little bit and being okay with letting that show. And that has actually been very empowering for me. And I think another thing the LDS church could do is to stop teaching that like anger or contention is like of the devil, you know, I'm not saying we want a society where everyone is just running around being angry at each other all the time. Heavens no. But we have all these different emotions as kind of like a different tool in our tool bag of emotions, so to speak. And each one has a purpose and a use. And to me, anger and rage and aggression are there to protect us, to help us survive, to help us literally defend ourselves from predators. I'm sure it's probably an evolutionary thing, honestly, like our caveman ancestors having to defend themselves from saber toothed tigers and packs of wild wolves and cave bears and, you know, needing that kind of aggressive adrenaline spike to be able to like literally physically fight them, you know. And nowadays we have sexual predators and child molesters and pedophiles and you know, there's physical threats too. But I mean, the more common thing I think in today's day and age is more emotional and mental aggression and we need to be able to defend ourselves from that. So.

Carah Burrell [02:51:39] Yeah, and that's a good point also, just because so much of just. I'm gonna speak. I'm not taking the mic from you. My. Okay, I swear. I swear.

McKay Johnson [02:51:52] Oh, you're fine.

Carah Burrell [02:51:52] You're fine. I always like to acknowledge a little bit of like the internalized, like, sexism that I've had to outgrow. And some of that is like, that a good woman in the church, she just like, takes it. I'm just like, that's your role is just like you're another polygamous wife or whatever.

McKay Johnson [02:52:10] Like, that's so wrong.

Carah Burrell [02:52:12] Just be happy. Just be like, grateful that you're in the true church. And so what if you don't have the priesthood? Or so what if. Oh, here's a big one. Like, so what if you were, you know, sexually assaulted or molested or whatever? Guess what? Because, you know, Christ is coming and he'll heal all of your wounds. So don't be mad because everything's gonna be fine. And like, you're gonna get a planet. And like, there's just all these, like, think about the big picture. Think about the eternal plan. Like, this is a trial for you. And it's like, don't be mad. That's like, no, I think I deserve to like, yeah, break some stuff or whatever. Like, if you've, if something happened to you when you're 10 and then you're like 30 years old, you've spent 20 years being like, don't get mad. Just be like, it's, it's fine. It's the atonement. Like, everything's good. Christ will give me a new body one day. I'll forget all of this. You know what I mean? Just like that religion that the, that complacency that it, that it fosters of, like, it's okay, it's okay. Like, because it's all part of God's plan. It's like, okay, but if it's part of God's plan, either I need to be mad at him, I need to mad at me, the person who did it to me. But instead you're kind of mad at yourself and you just put it on yourself that, like, okay, I can't be mad at God. I can't be mad at that person. I'm supposed to forgive them. So I guess I'm the screw up. What did I do? What do I need to do better? Just like your mission journals, you know? Yeah, like, it's the. No, no, no, no. Like, don't do that. Like, that's whether you stay religious or don't stay religious. Like, that's just, that's an unfair, really toxic environment to keep your mind. To keep that space and hold that space for so long. So I held that space for way too long as well. So.

McKay Johnson [02:53:43] Yeah. And like, thank heavens we're breaking out of that. That now. Right? I even made a TikTok recently about how in my view now, like a Lot of those kind of Christian, classic Christian teachings about turn the other cheek and whatnot actually kind of enable toxic people to be abusive, manipulative, predatory. And so now I'm very much a kind of take no bullshit kind of person where as soon as I recognize any sort of manipulative or toxic behavior, nip it in the bud, man. That's. That's what I think needs to happen, honestly.

Carah Burrell [02:54:19] Yeah. And if anyone ever wants to make the accusation that, like, oh, McKay or whoever, it's like, was in the church and they were just. They were so sweet, and then the pendulum swung when they left the church. That's what I used to think about.

McKay Johnson [02:54:30] People literally commented that. Commented that to me on a Facebook post a while back. And, you know, it's funny. I want people to understand, like. And actually, I want my mom specifically to understand this, too. I'm not angry all the time. I'm not living an angry life. I'm actually living a very happy, more fulfilled life now. But am I afraid anymore to get angry when necessary? Hell, no. I'll do it. Absolutely. I mean, probably every day when I go to the gym, for sure, at least, because that just helps with that. But an actual survival quote unquote situations, like, it's a very helpful thing and it's a very empowering thing. So, you know, we. We draw power from those aggressive, kind of quote, unquote, negative emotions. So I guess. I don't know. I guess I'm a Sith, not a Jedi anymore. Oh, my goodness. I'm so.

Carah Burrell [02:55:26] No, it's just like you were saying that, like. Yeah, if somebody were to say, like, you're angry now. It's like, I just don't turn the other cheek as much as I did when I was a Christian.

McKay Johnson [02:55:33] But I don't roll over and die.

Carah Burrell [02:55:35] I roll over and die. Yeah, because you stand up for yourself. You have boundaries now. Like, heaven forbid.

McKay Johnson [02:55:40] So, yeah, heaven forbid, we sent boundaries, right. Oh, my God, that's such a crazy concept.

Carah Burrell [02:55:45] And before you put up a boundary of saying that, you were going to talk about something and we were going to come back to it, and now I'm going to say, hey, let's. I just want to wrap up. Any other things about your mission that you want to talk about and ask you what you meant by the secret combinations.

Mission Culture, Secret Combinations, and Wrap-Up

McKay Johnson [02:56:01] Yes. Okay. So my mission, by about halfway through my mission, so we're probably a couple months in or just a month into my second mission president's tenure, we had kind of heard rumors about this secret combination of missionaries in my mission that called themselves the faixas, which is a Brazilian word. I can't even remember what it means. It's just like a slang term though, in this context, basically. And they would what. What we discovered after several months of kind of investigating it was that they would lie about their key indicators, like their numbers so, you know, baptized, confirmed. Well, they wouldn't lie about that one because that one requires paperwork, but they would lie about like investigators in sacrament, meaning how many lessons had been taught during the week, contacts, et cetera, et cetera, so that they could go around rule breaking all the time and kind of avoid suspicion. And the reason our mission president started referring to it as kind of a secret combination is because they literally had hand signs and secret handshakes and even a specific knot they would tie in their ties in order to be able to recognize each other. So it was like we talked about, about Mormonism as kind of being a cult and missions even more so. And here's like a cult within a cult within a cult. And it was.

Carah Burrell [02:57:24] They're kind of cool though, because they're like the rule breakers.

McKay Johnson [02:57:26] No, yeah, they are kind of cool. Well, and some of that, some of the rule breaking that they did was very innocuous stuff, like playing video games. Like normal. Like these are just immature 18, 19, 20 something year old boys. There weren't too many sisters who were fishers. There were a few, but it was mostly elders who just, you know, wanted to still have their younger years. And lots of missionaries go out because of familial and social and cultural pressures and not necessarily just because they want to be there. I mean, especially when you've been raised in the church and brainwashed that it's what you have to do. Like, of course you don't fully want to be there. Right. But I digress. So a lot of it was just, you know, innocuous, like playing video games or staying out too late or whatever. Some of the shit they did though, was actually like really bad. Like there were a few of them who like tied up their companions, kidnapped them and like shut them in a room for a while while they went off and did other things because they knew their companions wouldn't want to be breaking rules with them. Yeah, yeah, happened as far as I know, at least a couple of times with separate mission companionships. In my mission, this is like the

Carah Burrell [02:58:35] reverse Book of Mormon and with like. Yeah, like this is like Layman and Lemuel tying up Nephi to like the. I'm not, I'm not getting my Book of Mormon. You guys are looking at me like I'm crazy. Didn't Layman and Tiny fight up?

McKay Johnson [02:58:50] Yeah, because he was. No, basically, that. That kind of vibe.

Carah Burrell [02:58:53] Yeah, because the sinners want to do the stuff and the righteous guy has to get tied up to get away with it. Yeah, it's like role playing. The freaking Book of Mormon.

McKay Johnson [02:59:01] Yeah, no, exactly. So, like, you know, as much as I, you know, don't believe anymore, like, is it wrong to don't put someone

Carah Burrell [02:59:08] in bondage and just go home, guys, Come on.

McKay Johnson [02:59:11] Yeah, I don't just be big boys. Exactly. And some of those guys, they, like, they bought like a house out in the middle of nowhere to go and, like, fool around with girls. And like, that raises all sorts of questions in my mind as well as to, like, you know, how many of their interactions with girls or whatever were actually consensual or, like, because if they're tying up their mission companions who are guys, like, you know, what other kind of shit are they getting up to that is.

Carah Burrell [02:59:36] I don't want to, like, make a joke or anything, but I just have this image in my head of, like, somebody tying up their mission companion and then going and like, very politely asking for consent. Like, that doesn't translate. I don't see that type of person as, like, really being into consent. Like, that's not like the vibe I get from that type of person. But I don't know.

McKay Johnson [02:59:52] Yeah, probably. You're probably right. So, yeah, I'm sure there was all sorts of unethical stuff that they were doing, whether you're Mormon or not. Like, that we would all be able to agree, like, that's wrong. And then there's, you know, stuff that some of them were doing where I wouldn't say it's necessarily inherently wrong in my kind of secular worldview, but against Mormon, like, major commandments, for sure. So there was an elder and a sister who were in leadership positions who had sex, for example, and they were part of the group, the secret cult combination, you know, And I think they both got excommunicated.

Carah Burrell [03:00:29] No way.

McKay Johnson [03:00:30] Which. Which is another kind of ironic thing to me where I don't know if my trainer who sexually abused me was X'd or not. And the. Then these two who had a consensual sexual relationship, as far as I know, both got X'd. Like.

Carah Burrell [03:00:44] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [03:00:45] Pretty crazy, right?

Carah Burrell [03:00:46] That is crazy. So was. Was more of this stuff happening under the first, like, stricter mission president or the second one? Because I was going to Ask if it was under the second one. Him saying dude was just like, everyone's like, oh, it's a free for all we're going to do everywhere.

McKay Johnson [03:01:00] Well, so here's the funny thing. As far as we know, it was happening under the first and the second, at least for the beginning of the second mission president's tenure. But our second mission president was like double edged sword. He was very like empathetic and warm with people and like very much like buddy, buddy. But he was also much more hardcore, I'd say, with like the serious stuff. So as soon as he caught wind of all this kind of stuff happening in our mission, like he called a meeting with like half the mission and then, then did the same meeting again with the southern half of the mission later where he basically just roasted everyone for a solid couple hours, basically saying like, you all are breaking the command. He basically had everyone like read the white handbook, the missionary white Bible, right? I was just reading all the rules and he's like, I know specifically how many of you are breaking this rule and this rule and this rule. And at the very end of this meeting where he's just been roasting everyone left and right, roasting the whole mission, he's like, I don't care if I have to send 80% of you home to clean out this mission, but if that's what it takes, I will. And then he said, I will be in my office every day from this time to this time during the entire next week. If you have something you feel you need to confess, come talk to me. If you don't come talk to me during this week, I will come and find you. It was like very like, whoa. And like just a few days previous to this, he had like taken my, me and my companion into his office and been like, let me see your temple recommends. And we're like, okay. And he did this separately to us and he's all like, elder, this temple recommend here is the key for you being able to enter the presence of the Lord. One of the questions for you to gain this temple recommend is if you are honest with your fellow men and your dealings with your fellow men. Elder, I'm only going to ask this question once. Have you lied to me about any involvement with or knowledge about the secret group in our mission? And I'm like, whoa. And I didn't. And my companion didn't really either. And so after that he was like, sorry I had to do that to you guys, but someone in the office has betrayed us. That was the literal wording. He used. And we came to find out later another missionary working the office had like leaked some info to some of the secret combination missionaries that they weren't supposed to. So anyways, it was this whole big thing. And after that meeting where he roasted like the whole mission, there's just this line of missionaries there waiting to confess probably like their entire life story, I'm sure. Just like. And in third grade I told them I didn't do my homework, but no, but that I did, but I didn't. And you know, all this, all this crazy stuff, right? I mean it was so, it was affected. So he kind of cleaned house, so to speak, of all that, all that stuff.

Carah Burrell [03:04:06] Because it looks bad on mission presidents if they do that, so.

McKay Johnson [03:04:10] Yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [03:04:11] He just, he was sick of it. He was putting up with too much and he was like, I don't care if I have to clean out this entire mission.

McKay Johnson [03:04:16] Yeah, exactly. And it's like on one hand it's like kudos to him because as I said, some of the things that a lot of those missionaries were doing were like legitimately horrible things. But on the other hand, a lot of it was just, you know, stuff that I'm like, ah, that's, you know, whatever.

Carah Burrell [03:04:29] Like they're putting unrealistic expectations to begin with and.

McKay Johnson [03:04:32] Yeah, exactly. Like so kind of mixed bag of emotions for me in regards to that. But at the time, oh, I thought we were badass and I thought our mission president was badass. And this is. It was around this time that me and my companion actually got the nickname of the Obedience Police

Carah Burrell [03:04:52] again. I just the contrast. My brain can't handle it.

McKay Johnson [03:04:56] I know.

Carah Burrell [03:04:57] This man who sits before me was nicknamed the Obedience Police.

McKay Johnson [03:05:00] It's hard to believe, I know, but it happened. So. Yeah. Anyways, that was kind of, you know, how the rest of my mission went. I was AP for about eight months and then when I had about six months left on my mission, I, I was thankfully released and got to go be a zone leader again, which was a lot more fun in my opinion. Like, didn't have to spend any time in an office and just got to go around kind of adventuring, so to speak. I mean, obviously working hard as a missionary, but come on, I'm in Brazil. We're getting to walk around these beautiful like green forests and stuff and almost getting eaten alive by giant banana spiders and, you know, cool things. Right? So. And I came home in July of 2016 and I had a three quarter tuition scholarship waiting for me at BYU for music and so I spent just about a month home and then went to byu. And that's kind of the next chapter in this story, I guess. I don't think there's anything I've left out from my mission that would be pertinent. So that's where we're at now. And my mission, as far as, you know, how it affected my faith in the church, I think in a lot of ways, it caused me to double down for a time, but simultaneously were items accumulating on my shelf. For sure, for sure, for sure. Not least of which would have been the sexual abuse, all the, you know, guilt and shame from pornography and masturbation and whatnot during the mission. And, you know, just. I feel like for a lot of kids who do serve missions for the church, like, their faith is kind of tried during that time because you'll have people telling you, like, why the hell are you out here doing this? You are wasting your time.

Carah Burrell [03:06:53] So did you have any kind of success, like baptizing or people receptive of your.

McKay Johnson [03:06:59] Yeah, I. Yeah, I baptized a decent amount of people. I mean, it's Brazil, so it's not like one of those countries where if you're lucky to get a single baptism, like, baptisms in Brazil are pretty common. A bit less so in southern Brazil, which is where I was, but still, like, more common than, like, your European missions, for example. I had at least. Well, we had a few couples that we helped to get married, then baptized, which is like, a huge success. And one family that at the very end of my mission, I got to go back a year after I had taught and baptized them to see them get sealed in the temple, which is like, the complete mission package. Like, if you get to see that happen as a missionary, it's like, dude, you've succeeded. They're divorced now. Turns out he was abusive, so.

Carah Burrell [03:07:48] Dang it. Yeah.

McKay Johnson [03:07:51] And I found out from her fairly recently that, like, the church kind of covered up his abuse, as has. Is Seems to be a recur. A recurring pattern. Right. And, like, the ward there, like, apparently took his side with a lot of stuff.

Carah Burrell [03:08:06] And so it wasn't the complete package.

McKay Johnson [03:08:10] Wasn't quite.

Carah Burrell [03:08:11] There's no fairy tale. Would you baptize somebody? And now they're just, like, off to go live happily ever after. Right. So, okay, I think this is a good spot to kind of just wrap up part one, talking about your youth and this section just about missions and abuse within the church. And why don't we just go ahead and wrap up part one, and then we are going to have to come back another day to do part two. So listener, viewer, please send all of your love and compliments and comments in the YouTube comment section below. And give your love to McKay for being so vulnerable and honest and open about the things that he's experienced, because I'm sure it wasn't easy, and it isn't easy, easy for anyone to share their story like this. So I just want to thank McKay for being here, and we will come back with a part two. Thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin [03:09:04] Yeah, and I'll just add, McKay, thank you so much for being willing to discuss such a sensitive topic. Strangely, we have women in here, do it all the time, and. And you're the first time we've had a man that I can remember talking about this. And it's just really important because abuse affects everybody, and. And it just takes a lot of courage for everyone to talk about it. And you did such a great job, and this story's gonna help a lot of people. So thank you so much for being willing to share that.

McKay Johnson [03:09:32] Yeah. Well, thank you, John, and thank you, Carah, for having me. And I'm excited to continue with part two later.

John Dehlin [03:09:37] Yeah. And, Carah, you're freaking rad. So thank you so much for leading this interview. It's so great to watch you do such great work. Thanks.

Carah Burrell [03:09:44] Just in a rad group of other cool, rad people. Thank you.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1493

Carah Burrell [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, Carah Burrell, and I'm really excited to be joining McKay Spartacus Johnson. Hey, McKay. For part two of our interview with him. And if you missed part one, you can pause this and go back and listen to it. We discussed some of the traumatic things that happened to McKay on his mission to Brazil. So we are moving on from that part of his life and going to be jumping into him going to byu, finding his wife through mutual. And we're gon be talking about a lot of the purity culture things. And one of the most important things that I think is really interesting if you listen to part one, if you can imagine the type of like, kind of homophobia that would kind of develop in a person's mind from what McKay experienced, it's going to be really interesting to hear how he was able to deconstruct some of those things. Homophobia. And I think everyone's in for a really, really interesting interview today. So McKay is just one of my favorite people. He's so witty and funny and intelligent. And then we're also going to get into him getting into TikTok and why, what that's been like. And not to mention, McKay's also a really talented musician and we want to talk about his band and his music and the other things that he's passionate about and that he wants to push for. So, McKay, thanks for joining us.

McKay Johnson [00:01:12] Thanks for having me. Happy to be here, guys.

Carah Burrell [00:01:14] Yeah. And then, of course, we cannot forget the. What should I. I want to be like the Vanna White of Mormon stories. Over here doing the switchboard, we have the one and only John Dillon. Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Hi, guys. Welcome back, McKay.

Carah Burrell [00:01:27] Thank you to have you so, so good to have John riding sidecar. John is really sweet and wants to let me kind of develop my own style for doing interviews.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Sweet or smart or I see and no talent. When I see which is it, I'm

Carah Burrell [00:01:40] like, he takes pity on me by saying, why don't you go ahead and leave these interviews, Carah? No, I guess he is smart, strategic, and he wants me to develop my own style and my own, you know, lead some interviews and stuff. So I'm really happy to get McKay in here for part two, and I'm ready to jump into it. Is anyone else anything else you want to add take away about what you think we're going to be talking about today?

McKay Johnson [00:02:01] Oh, that was. That was an amazing intro. Wow, I'm. I'm blushing. Please stop. Keep going.

Carah Burrell [00:02:06] You should. You should get Blushing. Because I think my new nickname for you is going to be, you called yourself last time you were here, like the pasty Viking.

McKay Johnson [00:02:15] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:02:16] So add some color to your face with some blush. So, so today we're going to be interviewing a pasty Viking named McKay. Everyone buckle up. So, oh, like I was saying, we kind of just left off at McKay coming back from his mission and jumping into BYU. So what was your experience at like BYU? And if people don't know, do a quick overview of the culture, what it means to be a BYU student.

Post-Mission Life at BYU and Engagement

McKay Johnson [00:02:42] Yeah, absolutely. So first things first, I definitely did not look like this as a BYU student. Short hair, no beard. Yeah, this, this, this look would definitely get me kicked out. And so, you know, if you can imagine me without the long hair, without the beard, that' point A, point B is that BYU in my experience was and still is very much focused on little, little rules, like, you know, the hair and beard thing and a ton of other things that we'll get into here. But yeah, so I got home from my mission July 2016, had about a month at home in Eagle Mountain, Utah, which is only like a 45 minute drive from BYU. So I was able to, you know, get a job on campus working audio events, which is really fun. I was actually with my sister who was just wrapping up her time there and started going on dates with girls again, which for a little bit felt weird, but didn't take me that long to, you know, kiss someone. I think only a month maybe. That is a long time actually. And then, you know, went down to the freshman housing and had one of my roommates was a friend from high school and a couple other random friends. We were all returned missionaries. And so it, so it began. And I was there on scholarship for music for you.

Carah Burrell [00:03:57] Oh my gosh.

McKay Johnson [00:03:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. For percussion performance. At the time, I can tell you my high school grades definitely are not what got me into university. It was definitely my talent on the drums and so I was lucky to have that. And I remember, you know, getting to BYU and it was really exciting. I dreamed of going to this dolours university like my whole life, right. And within the first month, just starting to feel kind of this sinking feeling and kind of this aversion to the whole, the culture of the campus.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] How

McKay Johnson [00:04:39] the only way I could have described it was it was very pharisaical in that, as I said before, they were very focused on the little things such as is that guy's hair too long or oh no, is that chick over there Showing her shoulders. Heaven forbid. That is like so evil.

Carah Burrell [00:04:56] People would be like, murmuring and gossiping.

McKay Johnson [00:04:59] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:04:59] About people who aren't following not only the Mormon rules, but then on top of that, like the BYU honor code rules.

McKay Johnson [00:05:06] Yes, exactly. Which are, you know, a whole kind of next level step up from. From Mormon rules. And maybe not quite as intense as missionary rules, which I had just come home from in some ways. So, you know, on the one hand it didn't seem that much different, but at the same time, you know, there were always these little things here and there that I was just kind of thinking, like, that just doesn't sit right with me. On top of that, as anyone who's served a Mormon mission knows, you kind of go through this adjustment period for, you know, it varies from person to person. For me, it was probably three to four months where I just kind of felt sad a lot of the time because I had gotten so used to that very rigorous planned schedule of missionary life. And I had always and have always been very passionate about music. But here I was, you know, finally in school, working on this major for the thing that I loved and feeling like I'm not helping people come to Jesus. Like, maybe, maybe I don't want to do, you know, music for a career. Maybe this is the wrong thing for me. And I took, even took like some, some aptitude tests. And of course the results always came back the same. Like, you have the most aptitude for the entertainment industry, you know, so that was kind of frustrating for a while.

Carah Burrell [00:06:15] Were you thinking of, like, I should go into, like, the ces, like becoming a teacher to bring people to Christ? What were you thinking?

McKay Johnson [00:06:21] Yeah, actually the thought of becoming a seminary teacher did briefly cross my mind at one point. And, you know, maybe, maybe I would have been a good, A good teacher. I don't know. I had one ex girlfriend who had randomly told me at some point, like, I think you'd be a good teacher. And that's probably just due to the fact that I generally don't have problem. A problem with, you know, speaking in front of people and whatnot.

Carah Burrell [00:06:43] And you were pretty orthodox, right, in your beliefs about Mormonism?

McKay Johnson [00:06:46] Yeah, fairly so.

Carah Burrell [00:06:48] Rule following?

McKay Johnson [00:06:49] Yeah, pretty.

Carah Burrell [00:06:49] You're ap. On your mission as well, right?

McKay Johnson [00:06:51] Exactly. Yeah. And I was pretty rule following. Yet at the same time, the degree to which BYU was so nitpicky with little rules, again, to me that seemed very pharisaical and like, not what the Jesus that I loved represented. And so that definitely began some cognitive dissonance, which Becomes important later on. But it was just kind of in the background at the time. Just, you know, another little item on the shelf, so to speak.

Carah Burrell [00:07:20] Yeah. Do you mind if I ask? I want. Because I didn't go to byu, but I did grow up in Provo.

McKay Johnson [00:07:23] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:07:24] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:07:26] May I ask you. Because you always describe BYU as, like, going to Oz, right.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] And then growing up in Texas, and

Carah Burrell [00:07:33] then it was kind of. Was it a letdown for you as well, or do you feel like the

John Dehlin [00:07:36] same things that maybe you really was, like, going to Oz?

Carah Burrell [00:07:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Yeah, I got.

Carah Burrell [00:07:40] You didn't see that. Fair signal.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] I, like, met Elder Holland. He was like a teacher of mine when he was president of the university. I dated his daughter. I was in the honors dorms. I was, like, prostrating myself at the feet of Mormon apostles. And I was going to General. I was going to General Conference every session that I could. Like, I. All the. All the devotionals, I would just get in the front row.

Carah Burrell [00:08:08] So were you, like, the Pharisee that Bay is? Were you more of, like that type that you were more.

John Dehlin [00:08:15] I never saw, like, I went four years never seeing someone smoke or drink at byu. Oh, you weren't never even seeing someone do that?

Carah Burrell [00:08:24] What about, like, someone exposing their shoulders? That was a joke. Yeah, somewhat of a joke.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Margi ran cross country.

Carah Burrell [00:08:31] Exactly. You'll see women not. But, like, you know, there, if you remember, maybe in, like, 2012, there was that girl who took a picture of herself in the bathroom mirror at BYU because a man came up to her in the. In, like, the library and said that we all signed the honor code. Is this ringing a bell for anyone here? And, like, we all signed the honor code and you are disrespecting everyone and God by, like, she had, like, tights on and, like, a skirt that went to her.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] That was like, BYU Idaho, right?

Carah Burrell [00:08:56] No, that was BYU Provo.

McKay Johnson [00:08:57] Was it?

Carah Burrell [00:08:58] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:08:58] And I can confirm there were definitely during my time at byu, and probably still are things like that that happen Fairly frequently at BYU Provo, and I'm sure at BYU Idaho as well. No shade. BYUi kids love you, but it's the nature of the beast.

Carah Burrell [00:09:12] Right? Right.

McKay Johnson [00:09:14] So, yeah. In any case, you know, that was just this struggle for me my whole time that I was there, even from just first arriving there and being a freshly returned missionary. And, you know, I will say I had some good times at byu, too. It wasn't like, all just this awful, depressing, you know, however many years of my life. But there was always in the background, all these little things that were bugging me. And those would definitely come up later. And so, you know, during that first semester of byu, I was very focused on, you know, trying to figure out my life. And eventually I came around and realized, no, music is what I still want to do. And in kind of my Mormon mindset at the time, I kind of thought, I can still, like, bless people's lives and bring them the light of Christ or what have you with the power of rock and roll. And, you know, in my kind of different mindset now, which we'll get into my beliefs currently and stuff later, but I still feel like music is a very powerful thing to really, like, uplift people, no matter the genre or whatever kind of message the music may or may not have, or even if it's just fun party music. Like, people need those, like, serotonin dumps. You know, people need to have fun times in. In life. If you don't, you're not living, you're just surviving.

Carah Burrell [00:10:31] So you had to go through, like, a phase of post mission. I wonder how many people go through that.

McKay Johnson [00:10:35] Like, oh, I would say every returned missionary goes through something similar to that.

Carah Burrell [00:10:39] That you're, like, not making a meaningful change in the world the way you felt like you were every day on your mission. Yeah. You're, like, being selfish in your pursuits for music, and you have to find a way to, like, fit in your passions into the box of, like, this will serve God, right?

McKay Johnson [00:10:52] Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, and beyond that, too, I was also kind of struggling with the whole dating thing because prior to leaving on my mission, I had been in a really serious relationship with my high school girlfriend. And when I got home, she was on her mission at the time. And so I, you know, was. We had kind of promised each other, like, well, we're not going to wait for each other, but if we're both around when each of us are home, we'll pick it back up and see what happens. And so I was like, any good return missionary BYU guy does, going on lots of dates with lots of girls and having fun, but not really connecting with anyone and not really feeling like anything was sticking. And I eventually, you know, started, like, praying about it. And I remember going into that first General Conference home, I like, specifically asked God, like, do I need to wait for her, you know, and see what happens? And I didn't get any answers via general conference talks. But then the next Monday, she sent me an email saying she was transferring to byu. And I was like, hallelujah. That was the answer. Right. And that was further, like, cemented in my mind when a couple months later, she wrote me another email saying, like, hey, I know that I kind of messed things up because she did kind of deer john me while she was. While I was out on my mission. And she was all kind of like, in this email probably about four months before she came home. So now we're in, like, January of 2017. She was like, I still love you. Literally, those words. And I don't know if you're open to it, but I would love to try again. And of course, hormonal, lonely Mormon me, who my whole thought process at the time is, I need to find my eternal companion, was just elated, ecstatic, exuberant at that email and immediately, you know, responded like, I still love you too. And I've been praying about this. And I think I probably was, like,

Carah Burrell [00:12:56] actually crying because you said earlier that your patriarchal blessing.

McKay Johnson [00:13:01] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:13:02] Everything in your life is kind of focused at that point when you're a BYU student on finding your eternal companion, being a father, being a husband.

McKay Johnson [00:13:08] Yeah. There was a line in my patriarchal blessing, which I received at the age of 12 years old. So this is like how far back kind of that indoctrination goes. The line said something to the effect of the. The greatest calling you have received in your life will be to be a loving husband and father in Zion as you. And then it listed a bunch of attributes which are kind of universal, like being patient and loving and stuff. Right. And, you know, so, of course, as a kid, being very impressionable, I definitely took that to heart all through my teen years and then going into my adult years where I'm like, oh, shit, now this can be like a real thing. I could actually, like, you know, go to the temple and marry someone for time and all eternity and have a family. And honestly, it was to the point where on my mission before coming home, our mission president had us set some personal goals as to what we were going to do with our time once we got back. And they needed to be some spiritual ones, some just kind of life career ones, and maybe some financial ones as well. I can't remember exactly, but I do remember one of my spiritual ones was get engaged by December 2016, which is. Wow, looking back on that, I'm like, oh, young man, so many things you just can't force.

Carah Burrell [00:14:18] Like, exactly.

McKay Johnson [00:14:19] Yeah. Can't force that. It takes two. And also, it's just like those. That kind of thing takes a lot more than. Or it should take more time Than, you know, six months. I got. Yeah, I got back in July and had that goal to be engaged by that December. Hell, that's only five months.

Carah Burrell [00:14:34] So, I mean, I can hear people who. This is like, the first Mormon stories they've ever heard or don't know anything about Mormon culture. They're like, oh, that sounds crazy. But anyone who's like, in a Christian or Mormon culture is like, yep, that's,

McKay Johnson [00:14:44] like, what you're supposed to do. It's like, standard.

Carah Burrell [00:14:46] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:14:46] Which. Which is something that I hope. Change. Exactly. Because as we'll get into, I found that to be incredibly harmful to me, and I've seen it be harmful to a lot of other people that I know actually, as well in both in the Mormon Church and in other faiths as well.

Carah Burrell [00:15:03] Yeah, I mean, I'm 32 years old and I just discovered, like, this year that I can probably do more than be a mom and a wife. So I'm still deconstructing.

McKay Johnson [00:15:11] Like, I saw you on your Instagram stories picking up that saxophone again.

Carah Burrell [00:15:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a little bit musician myself. And this isn't about me, though, and my super intense saxophone talent. That's sarcasm. Anyway, so you're able to get back with your high school girlfriend, and now you're happily married and everything's fine, right? No.

McKay Johnson [00:15:30] What happened? Oh, boy. Yeah, not exactly. She's happily married to someone else.

Carah Burrell [00:15:39] To you. People are getting annoyed by my sarcasm. And I've only started. We're like 10 minutes in.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] Stick with the chronology here. We're getting out of chronology.

McKay Johnson [00:15:47] Sorry. Sorry about that. But, yeah, basically she sent me that email, January of 2017. I'm like, totally ecstatic. And I basically, from that point forward, I'm like, okay, she's got four months until she comes home. I'm just gonna wait for her now. And so I didn't go on any more dates for that whole second semester that I was at byu and I even had a Twitter countdown. I was so invested in this. She gets home in April of 2017, the day after she gets home and she's been released and whatnot. We go out on a date and it's wonderful and we kiss and the sparks are flying. And I just like, this is it, finally. We're going to finally get married and live happy happily ever after. And we date for about a month and she dumps me. Well, first she friend zoned me, then kind of started slowly ghosting me over a month, until one night I call her, like, in May, late May, almost June. And I'm like, what is going on? And she's just like, I'm sorry. I'm, like, moving on. And of course, I was upset by that. And I was like, I don't think I want to talk to you for a while or, like, really even be friends. For the record, now, zero ill will towards her or her current hubs. They're lovely people, you know, it was just a painful thing to go through. And I think part of that definitely resulted from the culture not only pressuring me to try and find an eternal companion, but also pressuring her into that and, like, feeling all the. Both of us probably feeling all this pressure that as soon as she got home, we needed to just start seriously dating. And whereas the reality is for someone to adjust from a Mormon mission, it takes time. And not only that, but you're just getting back into, or for me, just starting college. And it takes time to figure yourself out and to figure out what you want to do with your studies and your career and just be a single adult for a while instead of just jumping right into marriage and kids and whatnot. And honestly, that was another thing that kind of led to some cognitive dissonance for me. That whole summer of 2017, I was starting to feel a little. Maybe a little bitter, a little angry towards God because I was like, yo, dude, I'm doing everything right as far as I know. Like, I served a mission, came home, and all these bad things are happening, because aside from that, I had. I had some injuries that happened to me that year. And so I had to get a couple surgeries that summer. And it was just kind of, you know, a tough time, and I was feeling pretty down, but I was able to come back from it eventually. And the next year at byu, for the most part, was a lot better. I had this new roommate who we became super tight, really close friends. Shout out to Chaz. He knows who he is. We're still good friends to this day. Love him.

Carah Burrell [00:18:38] Especially if his name is Chaz.

McKay Johnson [00:18:40] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:18:41] Yeah, Chaz knows who he is.

McKay Johnson [00:18:45] And, you know, this is probably the time where I was, I guess I would say maybe at, like, the height of my. My faith in the LDS Church.

Carah Burrell [00:18:55] Meaning, like, you were super devout and,

McKay Johnson [00:18:58] yeah, being super gung ho, like, had a calling in. In our YSA ward and was just, you know, really, really loving it and really all about it. And I was still like, very actively, you know, searching for the one quote unquote, and at the same time, in the background, struggling with that BYU culture that just Never sat well with me. And again, it felt like it was so nitpicky about teeny little rules that I was like, this doesn't really matter to someone's eternal salvation beyond just the religious context. These things don't matter to whether or not someone is a good person. And really important side note, actually, fall of that year, 2017, the MeToo movement happened. And that was where I finally recognized, oh, my God, I was sexually abused on my mission. And, you know, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't mention something about that, because not only did it open my eyes to all those things that had happened in my own life, but it also opened my eyes to how many women I know and knew at the time, including, like, pretty much every woman I am related to, have all gone through some form of sexual assault or sexual abuse. And that. That was really saddening to me. And these are people both in and out of the church. And I was like, it kind of shocked me. I was like, surely in the church, this kind of thing would not happen. But there it was, and all these women posting hashtag metoo and some of them telling their story, some of them just posting the hashtag. And I made a little post. At the time, I didn't want to take the spotlight away from women, but I, you know, just said I've been shocked and my eyes have been open today. And I'm so sorry. Want you to know that I'm a safe person to talk to if you ever need to. And also me too. And I just kind of left it at that at the time. And that slowly opened the door for me to be able to, over the ensuing years, start talking about my experiences with sexual assault. But it still took me a while, and I didn't at the time think, oh, I should probably go to therapy for these things. But that did happen eventually. And now currently going strong in therapy. It's great. I highly recommend it for anyone who has not done it yet. But, yeah, so that happened. And then if we kind of fast forward to the spring of 2018, I was going on lots of dates. A lot of BYU dates, a lot of durfing.

Carah Burrell [00:21:36] I want to know. Everyone's like, wait, pause. Please define. So wait, you're going on lots of dates at byu? You're like, some of these rules, they seem a little bit pharisaical. Here, let me try out this durfing. Please elaborate.

McKay Johnson [00:21:53] Well, so for those who don't know Durfing, AKA Levi Lovin, AKA the Provost Push, AKA Dry humping.

Carah Burrell [00:22:00] This is a good also time to mention content warning. What's our content? What's our content rating for this episode, John?

John Dehlin [00:22:09] I think some F bombs were dropped last episode, so it's at least PG13 maybe.

Carah Burrell [00:22:15] And now back to the story.

McKay Johnson [00:22:18] Yeah, if you're.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] If you're not into. Yeah, I mean, mature subjects and maybe a little bit of, you know, mature sexual content. Turn it. Turn it off.

Carah Burrell [00:22:30] Yeah, that's a.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] Like a light switch.

Carah Burrell [00:22:32] There's. I mean, so much of like, being a human is sexuality and like the church, I feel like, is muzzled so much of that about talking about it. So I like to let people tell their story exactly how they want to. And a lot of McKay's has to do with sexual trauma, especially in the last episode, and then also navigating the dirfing scene at BYU and so.

McKay Johnson [00:22:54] And marriage and eventual other things having to do with sexual trauma. So.

Carah Burrell [00:22:58] Yeah. Oh, this wasn't just an episode about dirfing. Oh, we're gonna get into other things is what you're saying. Interesting. Okay. Oh, here, look at the outline. That is. So anyway, I was gonna spend a whole hour on this. That's another joke. Anyway, so. Okay, so Levi loving is more what I've heard of it. Dirfing is almost like a new term.

Mormon Sexuality, Marriage, and Intimacy Struggles

McKay Johnson [00:23:14] Yeah, I mean, they' different terms for the same thing, which is basically you're rubbing up against each other in order to produce sexual sensations to the point of even like, climaxing, but you have your clothes on. And I feel like a lot of Mormon young adults will kind of justify it as being like. Well, it's not expressly like forbidden per se, but also, I mean, I feel like it just kind of naturally happens because when you have people who have a lot of chemistry and are attracted to each other and if they start kissing or making out and then they have all these arbitrary rules. Rules of. Oh, but you can't, you know, go too far. You can't touch each other in any of your sexual areas. Like, you know, these things kind of start happening.

Carah Burrell [00:23:56] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:23:57] That. That without being too explicit. Just like that motion is like very. It comes naturally to people. At least that was my experience with it. Like, I never, you know, started making out with a girl and thought, like, I think we're gonna dirf. You know. Yeah, but. But so anyways, that's definitely a thing,

Carah Burrell [00:24:14] like kind of getting around the rules. Yep. I don't know if that's like, expressly against the honor code, but I would assume so, like, that you're not supposed to arouse sexual feelings. Another person.

McKay Johnson [00:24:26] Yeah, I mean, I can tell you a lot of BYU students do it just because. Not, not just because I know I did it several times. But I mean, there are all those girls I did it with. And also a lot of guys and girls that I knew and know, you know, have told stories to me about it. So it's not like an unusual thing per se. And there were a few times where like kind of felt bad and I went in and confessed to my bishop and they were, oh, did you? And yeah, and you know, they were, for the most part just like, okay, well, don't do it again. Maybe don't take the sacrament just this one Sunday. But generally they, you know, they're so. They're so funny with the rules. They're like, well, did you touch her breast with your hand or genital region? And you know, if you hadn't touched with your hand, then it's like, well, you know, just. Just be careful, you know, don't do it the next time. So anyways, I digress that that was kind of a thing all throughout my time at BYU and for a lot of people who, who go there and just Mormon young adults in general, I feel like. But In May of 2018, I went on a date with a girl who I met via Mutual, which is Mormon Tinder, basically.

Carah Burrell [00:25:37] For those who don't know, it's like doordash for durfing.

McKay Johnson [00:25:40] It definitely can be. But I was fine. I was reaching a point where I was like, I find someone to marry. Like, I was finally kind of recovering from that bad breakup with the ex girlfriend and was like, I think my derfing days are done. I want to. I want a date to marry.

Carah Burrell [00:25:57] The prodigal child is back. Yeah, no more of that.

McKay Johnson [00:26:01] Well, and so I went on a date with this girl and of course we ended up making out on that first date. Not dirfing, though. That came later. And I remember actually stopping her, you know, middle a makeout session. I was like, wait, I don't want this to just be like a one and done type of thing. I actually like you on the first date. Determining, oh, I already really like this girl for her personality that I've experienced for all of three hours and probably less than that because half of that would have been just making out, but, you know. And she was like, no, I've never done this before. I want to like date you as well. And I was like, okay, we went on a second date date and made our relationship Official on our second date.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] And

McKay Johnson [00:26:45] she told me she loved me on our second date. And naive McKay said I love you back.

Carah Burrell [00:26:53] Did you really?

McKay Johnson [00:26:54] Like, I did.

Carah Burrell [00:26:55] And she had like all this programming of like, we got a first date, I love you, ring by spring. Like all of that is kind of like programmed in. You gotta follow the schedule.

McKay Johnson [00:27:04] And I think it was. It was almost this feeling of maybe. Well, definitely pressure. Maybe a bit of desperation in both of us to like, you know, get on with the program and get married. Right. Like a good Mormon young adult is supposed to do. And actually I remember us having a conversation on that second date where we talked about something to the effect of like, I feel like I've known you for a lot longer than I've actually known you. Basically hinting at, I think we knew each other in the pre existence baby.

Carah Burrell [00:27:33] Like that's why it's going so fast.

McKay Johnson [00:27:35] Yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:27:36] Like we already know. We already know each other. Other.

McKay Johnson [00:27:38] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:27:39] No, they don't know about our love. We were probably already like best friends in heaven before this.

McKay Johnson [00:27:44] They don't understand us. We. We just. We are. We're meant to be together.

Carah Burrell [00:27:48] I know this conversation well because I had it too.

McKay Johnson [00:27:50] Anyway, thank you for validating that, Carah. It's like.

Carah Burrell [00:27:53] And another thing I know pretty well is being in Provo, Utah and getting married really quickly while you still love. You love some. I love my. I love my husband still. But. But you have to admit there's a horniness that comes into play.

McKay Johnson [00:28:08] Oh yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:28:09] Speeds things along. Was that your experience?

McKay Johnson [00:28:11] 100%. Because as a Mormon youth or young adult, you're not supposed to have sex. The only way you can achieve that is by being married. Unless you want to break the rules and commit the sin second only to murder.

Carah Burrell [00:28:28] Yeah. So it's serious. You have to like, you have to lock it down. You have to get. Get married as soon as humanly possible. And these fast engagements are. I don't want to con. I don't want to condemn one way or another that people choose to get married, but we do have to like have a conversation about the way that there's a certain way that you can express yourself sexually. I think you just said achieved sexuality.

McKay Johnson [00:28:52] That's kind of what it felt. That's kind of what it felt like. Like for. For Mormon guys and gals growing up, it's like, oh, I can't wait till the day where I'm married.

Carah Burrell [00:29:02] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:29:02] So I can have sex. Like.

Carah Burrell [00:29:04] It is, it is, it's. It's a hot topic. Of your brain pretty much at all times.

McKay Johnson [00:29:08] Yep.

Carah Burrell [00:29:09] Achieve sex kind of sounds like that Lonely island song of, like, I just had sex. If you put it through, like, a Google Translate, and it came back

McKay Johnson [00:29:17] achieved,

Carah Burrell [00:29:18] I just achieved sex. So that is. It's like an achievement. Like, it's a. It's a new level that you've unlocked, and it's always on your young Mormon brain, and so it kind of clouds your vision.

McKay Johnson [00:29:30] But for sure, for sure, there's that and then just the pressure of, you know, in order to achieve the highest level of Mormon heaven, you have exaltation, right? You have to be married and, like, have kids and have eternal increase and whatnot. So there's all those kind of different pressures that are put into this pressure cooker that is Mormon provo. BYU dating. And to make a long story short, we dated for about two months, and we're already seriously talking about we know that we're gonna get married. And I'm like, well, shoot, I'd better start saving for a ring. And I had a talk with her dad, and we'd only been dating for two months at this point, and her dad, to his credit in this instance, it's kind of like, you know, I'm not saying no, but don't you think you guys want to, like, get to know each other a little bit better first? And good for him. Yeah, good for him. But, you know, we were young and headstrong, and I kind of wouldn't take no for an answer. So we kept dating for a while, and I just kind of quietly in the background, kept working and saving for a ring, eventually bought said ring. Now we'd be getting into late July, early August of 2018, and started. Started kind of making plans to actually propose to her. Went to her parents again and talked with them again. And this time, they were, you know, a lot more kind of supportive and gung ho and were like, what did

Carah Burrell [00:30:57] they think of you? Because you sounded like you were quite the good, you know, righteous priesthood holder. And that's kind of what every parent wants for their daughter. Yeah, I feel like they can, like, hand her over. Yeah.

McKay Johnson [00:31:09] Yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:31:09] So they must have liked you.

McKay Johnson [00:31:10] Yeah, well, in that sense, yeah, they. They did at the time. You know, as far as, like, I kind of fit the mold of return missionary priesthood holder living righteously. Air quotes, right?

Carah Burrell [00:31:24] Air quotes. Like, I mean, was there something else going on underlyingly, or were you actually living up to this?

McKay Johnson [00:31:31] For the most part, I was, but I mean, like, I just say air quotes because I feel like, the term living righteously is so, I don't know, kind of hypocritical because at the end of the day, like, what does righteous mean? Yeah, what does righteous mean? And also, no one is perfect. And everyone from the top down in any religion or outside of any religion does things that according to their moral code are, like, wrong from time to time. Right. Also, just the whole idea and concept of righteousness is something that I don't necessarily agree with anymore. We don't need to get into that right now, though. But, you know, of course, in the background too, there was dirfing after. After a couple months of dating, we were totally starting to do that.

Carah Burrell [00:32:14] Really? Okay.

McKay Johnson [00:32:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:32:15] Were you able to, like, hold off and keep that under control and get your temple recommends or how did everything lead up for a time?

McKay Johnson [00:32:23] So. So in. So in August is when I finally had the ring, August of 2018. And I talked with her parents. And then about a week and a half later, or a week later, I can't remember exactly, I know the date was August 31, 2018. I proposed to her, brought her to Bridal Veil Falls in Provo, which is where we had had part of our first date laid out, had some friends lay out like some candles and rose petals and a table with a nice bottle of Martinelli's Non Alcoholic, of course. And I played Marry Me by Train for her on guitar and sang and then got on one knee, you know, the whole nine yards. And then. And we got engaged and, you know, started preparing to be wed in earnest. And originally we had thought, oh, we'll probably get married after Christmas. But then after lots of kind of stressful talks with her family and my family, and between us, we decided to bring that date forward to November. And about a month before our wedding date, you know, we're engaged, we're hanging out one evening, things are getting a little hot and heavy, and we ended up having sex. So this is a. And this is a big no no for non married Mormon couples. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:33:42] And did you repent? What, did you go to the bishop? Did you keep it a secret?

McKay Johnson [00:33:49] Neither of us felt guilty, really.

Carah Burrell [00:33:52] That's actually quite surprising, giving all that conditioning. Well, maybe you're just like, this felt normal. What did you think?

McKay Johnson [00:33:57] Well, yeah, it felt normal. It felt natural. We were very much in love and we, you know, obviously we had a lot of chemistry and attraction for one another. And I mean, the thought crossed my mind a couple times while we were doing it, like, shouldn't be doing this. But then I was like, Ah. But we love each other. It's okay. And, you know, afterwards it was fine. And then, like, we were kind of dating semi, long distance at the time. She was going to another school a couple hours away, so we'd switch off weekends, visiting. And so I went up to visit her the next weekend after the first time we had had sex, and we had sex again more times, and again, didn't really feel super guilty.

Carah Burrell [00:34:45] Is that how she described it as? Well, like, she didn't feel guilty either.

McKay Johnson [00:34:49] So at the time, yeah. But then later, there's one time where once again, and this is probably only a couple weeks before the wedding, you know, we're having. Having sex. And then afterwards she started crying. And I'm like, did I do something wrong? Like, what's up? And she's just like, my parents can't find out. They will. They will kick me out. They will disown me. Like, these are very real fears that she had. And I think that I kind of had too, but that I hadn't really maybe given much thought towards because I just figured, no one's gonna know. You know, we love each other. We're not gonna tell anyone. And she was having those thoughts. But I was willing at that time. I was like, well, we can maybe we should talk to, you know, my bishop or your bishop or whatever. And she. And she was like, no. No one can know. No one can find out.

Carah Burrell [00:35:50] You would have had to. What?

McKay Johnson [00:35:51] Like, well, aside from probably. Well, aside from definitely not getting married in the temple, possibly, like, delaying the wedding or whatever. And she had these very real fears of her parents, like, legit disowning her, intense, probably intensely shaming her. And just the shame that we would have felt as people, as a couple for, you know, committing this quote unquote sin next to murder by having sex with each other before getting married. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:36:24] And, yeah, those are some huge consequences.

McKay Johnson [00:36:26] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:36:27] There's a lot on the line.

McKay Johnson [00:36:28] Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of intense cultural and social pressure and this whole, you know, salvation thing going on where, like, you know, if you don't take care of this sin, like, you're gonna be damned to hell, basically, was the thought process there. And so we. We just didn't tell anybody. And late November came. We got married in the temple and kind of told each other. Well, we'll talk with our bishop about it later. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:36:58] And so can I ask one small question? Because you had already gone through the temple, she'd already gone through the temple. You were both, you know, endowed members who had made these covenants already. Yeah, because a lot of people, especially women like me, like, I didn't go to the. Through the temple until, like, a week before I was married. So if, like, if a couple were to, let's say they're engaged and they have a temple date planned, like one of them is creating, is committing maybe more of an egregious sin, would you say, in your opinion, like, if you. If only one person's, like, made the covenants and that they're wearing their garments, but since both of you, did you feel more weight because you had made your temple covenants and you were breaking them?

McKay Johnson [00:37:36] Yeah. And actually, thank you for bringing that up. I had honestly kind of forgotten about that aspect to it. Yeah, definitely. We were both endowed, both returned missionaries. So it was like kind of a double whammy of, like, ooh, we have more light and knowledge. Like, if we are caught or if we tell someone about this, it's gonna be like, a huge, terrible thing. We could be, like, disfellowshipped or excommunicated maybe. Who knows? I do remember some of those thoughts going through my mind, and I'm sure through hers as well. But at the same time, this was creating a ton of cognitive dissonance for me because, again, we were two young people in love, consenting adults. Why was us having sex an issue? And why was us having sex something that we needed to talk with some random old man who doesn't know us about? Doesn't make sense. Didn't make sense to me back then, even though that's kind of. Of what I had been brought up believing. And then once we passed the point where we had had sex a few times and, you know, all those kind of bonding hormones are released and you kind of love the person even more, it. It made less sense, like, why anyone else should be involved in that aspect of our lives.

Carah Burrell [00:38:55] Were you concerned about, like, her getting pregnant earlier than you were actually, than your wedding date or.

McKay Johnson [00:39:02] There was a little bit of concern about that, but I. But I think, if I remember correctly, I don't think we did it for the first time until after she had, like, begun her birth control, which, you know, a lot of Mormon women, they'll. They'll start their birth control, like, maybe a month or so before getting married. Right. And so. And so because of that, and, you know, we were adults in our early 20s, we knew a little bit about contraception, so we took care of that aspect of it. Wasn't too worried about that. There was that worry, though, for sure, but not a whole ton, I guess. But, yeah, that would have been another thing that would have added to the kind of shame and fear if that had happened. Right? But, yeah, so this was all happening. We got married November 20, 2018. I'll never be able to forget that date.

Carah Burrell [00:39:55] Was it a good day?

McKay Johnson [00:39:56] You know, it was kind of your classic Mormon wedding. You have all your friends and family there. You go to the temple and do the actual ceremony and whatnot. And I definitely cried during that and then had a big party, big reception, a lot of dancing. Me and my groomsmen did a choreographed garter toss dance to the tune of Sexy Back by Justin Timberlake.

Carah Burrell [00:40:18] I would expect no less.

McKay Johnson [00:40:20] Of course.

Carah Burrell [00:40:20] Of course you did, McKay. Great.

McKay Johnson [00:40:22] Of course, there's no footage of it either, though, so that's unfortunate. But, yeah, we got married and started living that good old Mormon married life. And for a while, you know, things were just hunky dory. But after a couple months, we both started kind of feeling that guilt and shame again from the fact that we'd had sex before getting married and never told anyone. And that built up over the period of a couple months to the point where we even. We had a couple, like, arguments or something about it. It led to some tension in our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Marriage.

McKay Johnson [00:40:54] And we assumed, like, at the time, oh, this is because the spirit has left us because we have this sin that we haven't confessed. Right. That was definitely the thought process at the time. And so eventually we set an appointment with the bishop of our married ward at the time at BYU and went and confessed to him that we had done that. And, you know, I feel like, in terms of bishops that I had during my time in the church, throughout my life, I kind of lucked out. I've heard some people previously interviewed on this podcast talk about Bishop roulette, and I think I definitely kind of won that game. I never had a bishop that was super rude or super shaming, but I know there are plenty of them out there, unfortunately, and that's why it's Bishop roulette.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Right.

McKay Johnson [00:41:52] But, you know, from my point of view now, it's still weird and wrong for adults to be talking about their intimate sexual lives with someone who's not, like, a qualified therapist or like a close family member. You know, just this kind of random person who's been called to this church leadership capacity, and you basically have to discuss and disclose intimate details of your sex life to them. Right. And so. And that's what we did. We told them about, you know, how we had. We had had sex before getting married several times while during the last, like, month or so of our engagement. And, you know, we were both feeling pretty intense levels of shame, for sure. I remember her crying. There was, I think, in the bishop's

Carah Burrell [00:42:43] interview that she was crying. Oh, wow.

McKay Johnson [00:42:44] There's one point in the. In the interview, too, where. And I still don't know exactly why for this part, but there's a part where he talked with just her alone and not me. And I don't remember them talking with just me alone. Not sure. You know, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. And maybe they were asking her, like. Like, was it all consensual and stuff? But as my story reflects, men can be sexually abused too. So maybe they should also. If they're doing that, maybe they should also ask the man that separately. But this goes back to my point of I don't think they should be asking any of these questions at all. Right. So to. To adults, and especially not to kids.

Carah Burrell [00:43:29] Right on. And what is the. So if somebody gets married in the temple, you can't undo a ceiling. You can't take back a marriage. The ceiling is done. But if you had, you know, this egregious sin of premarital sex, what is the punishment that the. That your bishop doled out? I guess.

Church Discipline, Pornography, and Marital Crisis

McKay Johnson [00:43:48] Well, so we had to go through what's called a church disciplinary council, and the people.

Carah Burrell [00:43:54] Other people had to be brought in.

McKay Johnson [00:43:55] Yep.

Carah Burrell [00:43:55] Oh, wow.

McKay Johnson [00:43:56] And we had to recount all those experiences to those people as well, which. Which added to the shame and the guilt. And especially for my wife at the time, she was definitely feeling all those things very intensely because it's four guys plus me asking us these questions and asking her these questions, and she's the only woman in that room. And I can't imagine how scary that must have been for her. Cause it was already pretty scary and traumatizing for me, you know? And this, again, made me feel more cognitive dissonance, thinking, why is this a problem? We're consenting adults. We love each other. Why, like, why are these guys we don't even know privy to all these details about our sex life? It started really becoming a big crack in my shelf because I was like, this doesn't add up. Simultaneously, while that was cracking my shelf, another thing was going on at byu, which was the Restore Honor movement, which was basically a series of protests and Instagram posts where people were bringing light to some problems that the BYU honor code had, not least of which was punishing sexual assault survivors for being sexually assaulted, but saying, oh, it's your fault because you were in this guy's room, basically, that kind of thing. And I was involved in that and realizing, like, yeah, this really is an issue. And the BYU honor code and the pharisaical way of doing things here at BYU has never sat well with me. And so I attended that protest, or there were a couple, actually, and was following closely with that and was signing petitions advocating for change with the honor code at byu. And I guess at this point, I was kind of becoming what we call a progressive Mormon, so to speak, where, you know, not all of my views aligned 100% with everything that. Certainly not with everything that BYU is putting down and not even everything that, like, the general authorities would. Would say and. Or do, like in their general conference addresses.

Carah Burrell [00:46:08] What do you. What do you attribute that to?

McKay Johnson [00:46:13] You know, it's tough to put. It's tough to put a finger on any one thing, Carah, that would have made me start becoming more progressive in that. In that sense with the church. But I think a big part of it would just be having lived more life experience and starting to think a bit outside of the box of Mormonism and think like, well, how does this thing make other people feel and how do other people and other religions feel about this thing that Mormonism does or teaches or, you know, whatever, and starting to have more empathy, I think, for other groups other than my own kind of white Mormon male group was definitely a big part of my mind kind of opening and becoming more progressive in some of my ideas in regards to Mormon teachings and kind of protesting against the BYU honor code and because those.

Carah Burrell [00:47:09] Those protests that restore honor were BYU students kind of rising up, wanting to give. Wanting to stay BYU students, but asking for more charity and for the people who have been victims of abuse and

McKay Johnson [00:47:24] just calling out and separation of, like, the Title IX office and the honor code office and, you know, the assurance that if someone.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] And the police.

McKay Johnson [00:47:31] Yes, also that the BYU police. Thank you for mentioning that, John. I have no. No great love for those guys. Gave me a lot of parks and parking tickets during my time there. But. But jokes aside, they. They did some pretty unethical things, which I think you're about to bring up.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] I mean, just. Yeah, police officers shouldn't be, you know, reporting things back to the university of. And the church.

McKay Johnson [00:47:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] Of. Of the victims, potentially of sexual assault.

McKay Johnson [00:47:59] Yeah, yeah. And all that kind of stuff was happening.

Carah Burrell [00:48:01] Really scary that. Yeah. If you are sexually assaulted, you know, in BYU housing is that what you're kind of trying to say is like, you. You report that to the police, the BYU police is that who comes to the. Would, like, come to the house, and then they can. They can let the school know. You can potentially get kicked out of the school because you were sexually assaulted while you were maybe like, you know, had a beer or something. Like all of it ties together.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] If the police ask what time the assault happened and you say 2am that you're incriminating yourself with the honor code office.

McKay Johnson [00:48:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Because you had a male in your dorm past the time you're allowed. And so then the university can kick you out for being raped. And so that disincents rape victims to report the rape or the assault. Because then the police might go and tell the university, which will then tell your church, which will then get you kicked out.

McKay Johnson [00:48:54] Yep. And that I. That happened to a lot of people. Didn't happen to me specifically, but I mean, the whole. The. The account Honor code stories on Instagram highly recommend people following that if they want to read more of these.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] And this story won the Salt Lake Tribune a Pulitzer Prize.

McKay Johnson [00:49:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Because the Salt Lake Tribune covered this and.

McKay Johnson [00:49:12] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Yeah. That's how big of a story this was.

McKay Johnson [00:49:14] Yep. It was a pretty big thing. And I mean, you know, add to the fact that I was kind of being progressive with all these beliefs and protests, I was also kind of being a little edgy and growing my hair out at the time. And as a BYU student. Yeah. Not super long like it is now, but it was, you know, just a little over the years and starting to curl up a little. And they just allowed coke on campus at the time. So it felt like these big changes are happening. You know, maybe the changes are happening.

Carah Burrell [00:49:43] Rape victims are being heard and they're serving Coke. Finally, like BYU, one thing a time.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] It's almost like dogs and cats sleeping together. No, you could. For a century, you couldn't get a caffeinated beverage on campus.

McKay Johnson [00:49:57] It's true.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Yeah, I couldn't. It was all decaffeinated Coke. Decaffeinated Dr. Pepper.

McKay Johnson [00:50:02] Yeah. That's why there was even a business on campus for a while called Caffeine

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Corner, who we featured on Mormon Stories podcast.

McKay Johnson [00:50:09] Yes. Who I will also talk about in just a minute here, one of my good friends. But before we get to that point. So that semester, this would be spring 2019 now of BYU ended, and again, still enjoying married life, being more of a progressive Mormon, went on a bunch of trips that summer together. And I felt like, our marriage was really strong and things were going well, yet at the same time, there was all this dissonance going on from the disciplinary council that we had just been through, all the Restore Honor movement, which was really highlighting and bringing to the front of my mind all the issues that I had always had with BYU since starting there.

Carah Burrell [00:50:52] That's gotta be frustrating that it takes protest to get, you know, anything to the forefront. That it's not byu. Like, you're saying, like, the Lord's university. Like, why are these things even a problem to begin with? That there's just all these problems already at BYU that people need to have protests over that the church will fight against, like, these things that shouldn't even exist. That's gotta be super frustrating.

McKay Johnson [00:51:11] Yeah, no, it was. It was incredibly frustrating for me, even as a very active, devout, believing member of the church. Right. And beyond beyond that. Oh, shoot, I'm drawing a blank here.

Carah Burrell [00:51:24] We were enjoying married life.

McKay Johnson [00:51:26] Oh, yeah, we were enjoying. Sorry, so we were enjoying. No, we were. We were. But I also was seeing a lot of people that I knew, including some close friends, leaving the church. And that was, you know, causing me to question some things. And I would. And I was the kind of Mormon where I would engage with these people on their Facebook posts and kind of bear my testimony or whatever.

Carah Burrell [00:51:48] You were one of them.

McKay Johnson [00:51:50] I mean, in my mind, I was being loved. But, yeah, I look back on that and I kind of cringe inwardly, and I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry that

Carah Burrell [00:51:58] AP from your mission, still alive and well at BYU, bearing your testimony on Facebook.

McKay Johnson [00:52:03] Yeah, yeah. Summer 2019, doing a lot of that. I had one friend who posted an article about Elevation emotion, and I took issue with that. I was like, I know I have felt the Spirit many times in my life. And he didn't even argue back. He was like, I'm sure you have, you know, but this article is also, you know, saying this, and the two things don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. And I remember being very defensive in that comment section, but kind of being rattled to my core underneath and just thinking that over for days and losing sleep over it and starting to question my very basic notions of belief in God and Jesus and being guided by the Holy Spirit, you know, and also during this time, I was occasionally looking at pornography. It was kind of something that we had addressed when me and my wife were dating and I had, like, quit cold turkey because I was so addicted. I had looked at it, like, twice during the time we were dating.

Carah Burrell [00:53:08] That's another in quotes. Addicted. Yeah, yeah. I just want to make sure the listeners can hear that the church will literally be like, oh, you're addicted, you need to go to rehab.

McKay Johnson [00:53:16] Yeah. Which is what I did. I went to the churches, 12 step meetings for like most of the time we were dating and stuff and was doing really good in the sense of like cold turkey, not looking at pornography, not masturbating, any of that. Right. But you know, after, after about six or seven or so months of marriage, I was occasionally looking at it again and that started building up some more, you know, guilt and shame inside of me. And I was like, she's gonna be like so mad if I tell her, but I need to tell her. Like, I want to be honest, I want to be a good husband. And so by fall of 2019, things were to a point, like, internally for me where I was like, I can't keep on doing this. I feel kind of two faced. I need to talk to her and tell her. Right. And I told her. And this was just a couple weeks shy of our first wedding anniversary. And it, man, it just devastated her, shook her to her core. And her reaction was pretty devastating to me as well.

Carah Burrell [00:54:29] Because what is to like a Mormon woman to a wife in that situation? What, what is she kind of thinking, like, what is the explicit or implicit message she's getting now?

McKay Johnson [00:54:40] She's thinking, you're a monster, you don't love me, I'm not enough, my body isn't beautiful to you. She, she's thinking any of that true whatsoever? No, no, heavens no.

Carah Burrell [00:54:53] I, I, to a woman's credit. Yeah. Like, those are a lot of the messages that you'll get that, like, that is what that means. But to a man who's actually the one looking at porn like you're here to tell us none of, none of those things are actually true or connect.

McKay Johnson [00:55:07] None of those things are true at all. And it's really unfortunate that in the church there's such this culture that stems from the church's chastity teachings that kind of shames women for if they dress immodestly and calls them basically sluts for that or whatever. And then on the flip side of that coin is it does also harm men, where if you do something that's pretty normal, like you masturbate once or even just a couple times, very infrequently, or if you, heaven forbid, happen to look at pornography, you suddenly become the scum of the earth, lowest of the low, sex monster, you're probably gonna molest kids one day or something. Like, these are all messages that I heard at various times growing up. Like, porn leads to. Porn leads to, you know, sexual predators or porn leads to. The most ridiculous one I've ever heard is that porn leads to people becoming serial killers.

Carah Burrell [00:56:09] Inhibitions out the window.

McKay Johnson [00:56:10] And I think that was taken from. There was some interview with Ted Bundy after he was, you know, caught and waiting to die in a Florida prison where they were interviewing him and asking him things like, you know, what got you into like, killing people? And the guy was psycho. He was a serial killer. He was just throwing, pulling stuff out of his ass to please the media. And so he said something about like, you know, oh, I think it started with looking at hardcore pornography or whatever. And it's just like, people, look, I'm 25 years old. I've looked at a decent amount of porn in my day, and I can tell you the urge or thought to brutally murder another human being has not crossed my mind even once. Nor has the urge or feeling to molest children or anything that is inherently wrong like that.

Carah Burrell [00:57:05] It's one of my favorite fallacious reasonings. Oh, man.

McKay Johnson [00:57:08] Yeah, it's completely bonkers how like, Hitler

Carah Burrell [00:57:12] used toilet paper, I used toilet paper, I'm a Nazi.

McKay Johnson [00:57:16] No, it's such a false equivalency. It's so fallacious. So. But yeah, that was basically. That's the messaging that you're kind of brought up with that I certainly was kind of brought up with in the church. And that she obviously was, because as soon as I tell her I've looked at some pornography and with the caveat, I am so sorry, I love you, I want to change, I want to stop yada, yada, yada. She basically didn't hear anything beyond, I've looked at pornography and that, you know, would have internally sent all those messages that we were just talking about to her, and she became very, very upset. And, you know, that night we're like, still sleeping in the same bed, but she's like, don't touch me, you know, get away from me kind of thing. And the next morning she called her dad and told him all about it and, and he came over and we all, you know, had a nice little chat.

Carah Burrell [00:58:09] Wife wanted to involve now your in laws. I cannot be. I, I. How did it turn out? Well.

McKay Johnson [00:58:19] Well what? Well, she separated from me that, that

Carah Burrell [00:58:23] next day from just admitting that you've looked at porn a handful of times.

McKay Johnson [00:58:27] And then she, you know, took a few days where she was uplifting at her mom's house and she was like thinking things over. And then I came up a few days later to talk and she, she had like talked with her uncle who's a lawyer, and had like a list of questions for me. And overall, very shaming experience. You know, I was feeling like I wanted to die pretty much throughout all of and was feeling really bad because I felt like I've hurt my sweetheart, you know, and I really loved her really deeply. And you know, I had literally come forward in good faith, like, hey, here's something that according to our church, our religion, our beliefs is wrong and I want to stop doing it. And so anyways, she had a whole laundry list of things that I needed to do to kind of get back in her good graces, so to speak. And I know some of these were advice that her uncle and other family had given her. Her in addition to other things that she had. So it was like I needed to go to 12 Step Church Addiction Recovery meetings every week. I needed to of course, stop looking at pornography. Cold turkey, 100%. I needed to take like some marriage enhancement classes at BYU the next semester and needed to go to therapy. And like, I was like, okay, what, whatever it takes to, you know, save our marriage. Because we had gone from like zero to a hundred in two seconds because it had been like things were going great. And then I tell her about this one little thing and it completely changed everything.

Carah Burrell [01:00:13] So for John, I want to ask you, Mr. Clinical Psychologist, expert in all things things Mormonism. This has got to be pretty common amongst a lot of Mormon marriages, especially for, for, oh, let's say there's a couple that's in the church. What is like the, almost the prescription for if you want to be in a faithful like LDS marriage, or maybe you're not LDS anymore, but you're still not comfortable with your spouse looking at pornography. What is a woman or a husband, if that's the wife looking at it? Like, what is a couple to do? Because I can't imagine that nothing that your wife did seems like it was out of step with what she was told to do. So this is, this is again, systems, not people.

McKay Johnson [01:00:58] Yeah, exactly. Like I'm not definitely not sitting here trying to bash on, on her or anything like that system. Definitely, you know, all of this reaction is very much a result of the way she was raised and the system that she and I were raised in.

Carah Burrell [01:01:13] Yeah. So like, like what, what would be the standard? Like if somebody's like, oh my gosh, I, we. This is against my church's rules or this is just not what I agreed to in marriage. I would like my husband to not be looking at this, but I don't want to. Maybe people are just so, they have this inclination to shame, to you know, cry, to feel hurt. I feel like that's kind of, that's like a normal kind of human reaction, like, oh, you're looking at other women or whatever. Like, what would be the healthiest way for people to navigate that? Because I kind of want to like have something from this part of the story if somebody's going through this or this is potentially maybe in their future or in their past. Like, what's the smartest way for a marriage to like overcome if your, your spouse is telling you that they've been looking at porn on their computer? Typically, like, I don't know, handful of times. You're definitely not an addict either. It's not like you're a sex addict. John. Like, what's, where does your mind go when you hear McKay's story?

John Dehlin [01:02:06] Yeah, that this is the, this is the normal Mormon experience.

McKay Johnson [01:02:11] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] And it's, it is, it is a, you know, we talk a lot about things like misogyny and racism and the LGBT Mormon experience, but the shame cycle that the church puts Mormon youth into for masturbation and pornography and then the way that marriages get stressed and, or destroyed over equating pornography viewing with not just infidelity but with acts as severe as murder can destroy lives and it has destroyed many of marriages. And we actually, Natasha Helfer and I and Margi, as part of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis series, we did a three part series called A More Effective Approach to Masturbation and Pornography for Teens and Adults. And I don't want to, to give a cop out by saying we'll include that in the show notes, but it's a three hour series where you talk about it. But the short answer is, you know, the more you try and tell a spouse not to look at porn, the more they're likely going to look at it. So if you, if your goal really is minimizing or even having a chance at eliminating it, the, the counterintuitive response is to not try and control it and definitely not to shame it. But the more you shame it and try and control it, the more you raise the stakes. You kick them out of the bedroom, you make them sleep on the couch, you threaten them with divorce. What you do is you make them more stressed and sad and depressed so they need some way to self medicate and you can't use booze or drugs to self medicate.

Carah Burrell [01:03:52] It's like, if it is already your coping mechanism, what else do you have?

John Dehlin [01:03:55] You literally just end up masturbating and looking at porn more.

McKay Johnson [01:04:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] Partly because it's just the way. Yeah, the self medicate. It's also a way to distract yourself. And, and there's just the basic psychological component that the more you try not to think about something, the more you think about it. And the, the more, you know, people who do yo yo dieting understand this, the more you're like, I can't eat X, Y and Z. Those are bad foods. There's a really normal psychological component where you overeat eat those foods you're trying to never eat. It's called the abstinence violation effect. But the more you try and say none of something, sometimes you do it more than ever. So the, the truth is the church's approach is sort of like optimized to maximize the behavior that they're trying to eliminate.

Carah Burrell [01:04:46] Yeah, I can see that.

McKay Johnson [01:04:47] And yeah, I've lived that. So I can.

Carah Burrell [01:04:51] Yeah. So what did it, what did it actually do? Like all of that stuff that she was asking you to do. How was the shame? Did it cure you?

McKay Johnson [01:05:00] No, it did make me feel very depressed. And for, for a while there I did stop pretty cold turkey. Like, no porn, no masturbation whatsoever. We installed all sorts of crazy like filters and whatnot on computers and cell phone and whatnot.

Carah Burrell [01:05:20] Did you have that? I've heard of that. You, you can't even type it in because you speak Portuguese now. And that's one problem I've heard is that missionaries will come back speaking a foreign language and their wife will put an. On a pornography like filter on the computer. But they're like, aha. And they can, they, you can still search it in, you know, a different language.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] You're giving people ideas.

Carah Burrell [01:05:41] That's what Mormon stories is all about.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] How to circumvent your spouses vigilance.

McKay Johnson [01:05:46] Yeah. You know, honestly, I think the whatever filter we had was like enough that even if you search for things in other languages, like it would still filter it or block it or what have you. So, I mean, I know of that loophole, but yeah, I didn't give him the idea.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] No, just, just 50,000 other people. That's all.

McKay Johnson [01:06:07] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:06:08] I actually got that idea at church. I learned about it. We had an entire seminar at church back in 2009 about pornography once. And that was one thing that they mentioned there. I was like, That's a great idea. If I spoke a different language.

McKay Johnson [01:06:22] Yeah. So, I mean, I was aware of that and had probably done that in the. In the past at some point or another. But, I mean, at this point, I was like, I was so desperate to save my marriage because she had literally said, if you don't. She. She gave me a deadline. She said, if you do not stop by February, I'm divorcing you. How prophetic those words would turn out to be. But in the meantime, you know, I was. I was working my ass off, proverbially speaking, doing all that recovery type stuff, going to therapy, which she was supposed to come to some therapy sessions with me. Never did that. January, started a new semester at BYU and started that marriage class that she was supposed to come to with me every time she came a grand total of once. And there was all these things going on. Right. And I have to backtrack a little bit to also introduce another important thing that was happening at this time, which was I met, to make a long story short, met a guy named Wesley who was also in the BYU School of Music at the time. We were both commercial music majors. I had switched my major after about a year or so of percussion performance. And we met at this little shindig for commercial music majors. And he mentioned how he was looking for a drummer in his band, Suit Up, Soldier. And my old band that I had started with some old high school buddies at the beginning of college was kind of dying, and, you know, I checked out Wesley's music and stuff. I was like, oh, this is really good, and ended up joining that band. And my. My friend Wesley, I soon found out, was and is gay. Which, you know, I took that in stride when he told me. And he's like, you know, most people who are close to me know this. I've never come out, like, publicly on social media yet. And at that point, he hadn't. But.

Faith Crisis, Divorce, and Leaving the Church

Carah Burrell [01:08:22] And he was a BYU student.

McKay Johnson [01:08:23] Yes, he was a BYU student. That's kind of true. Married to a woman with kid.

Carah Burrell [01:08:27] That's risky on top of risky. Wow. Okay. So he was, like, confiding in you as a BYU student, as a married man with a child. Wow, that's.

McKay Johnson [01:08:36] Yeah. And. And it was funny. I remember that interaction. We were driving back from rehearsal, and he told me, and I was like, oh, okay. And. And he said. And just to clarify, no, I do. I'm not attracted to you or any of the guys in the band, for that matter. And he's like, sorry to hurt your ego. There I'm like, like, oh, it's fine.

Carah Burrell [01:08:54] But he's like, I hired you for the band for your talent.

McKay Johnson [01:08:57] Yeah. Not for your looks, man. And, you know, what ended up happening was he and I started becoming very close friends as we started working together pretty intensely on this band. And to Wesley's credit, he never,

John Dehlin [01:09:13] you

McKay Johnson [01:09:13] know, tried to convince me of anything as far as, like, what the church may or may not be doing wrong in regards to the LGBT community. But what he did do was just honestly share, you know, his experiences and feelings and the experiences and feelings of other LGBT persons and, oh, man, that it was heartbreaking for me to discover things like, you know, electroshock gay conversion therapy at BYU in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and the way that the church just in general has treated LGBT persons. And it finally clicked for me when we were actually having that first conversation where he came out to me and he just said. And I kind of said the Mormon mumbo jumbo of, oh, well, you know, it's. It's fine if you don't act on it, you know, as long as, you know, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner, yada, yada. And he said, yeah, but I want you to imagine that you are brought up your whole life being told you have to marry a man and you're really attracted to women, right? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. And he's like, now imagine you have to marry a man, man. Could you do that? And I'm like, no. And he's like, so now imagine what it must be like for me and other and other LGBT persons being told that we have to marry people that we're not attracted to, you know, and that. That didn't sit well with me. That. That kept me up at night over. Over the months. So that was how. Yeah, so that was kind of happening simultaneously, too. All this stuff with confessing pornography usage to my wife and all this huge buildup of major, major cognitive dissonance. The cracks in my proverbial shelf were just widening to chasm like proportions. And it all kind of came to a head in February of 2020. So my wife and I, at this point, had been separated for several months, kind of off and on. She came back to live with me briefly during Christmas time, and then we had some arguments, and she had some issues with my family to the point where she told me I shouldn't hang out with one of my brothers ever, because he was a, quote unquote, bad influence on me.

Carah Burrell [01:11:35] So she was still, like, very orthodox in her beliefs on the church at

McKay Johnson [01:11:39] that time, very orthodox. And yet at the same time, she and her family did all sorts of things that were not, you know, kind of in line with the orthodox beliefs. I mean, including the fact that she and I had sex before we were married and whatnot. And yet here she was kind of shaming me for having looked at pornography a few times and very actively trying to stop and meet all of her demands. Things started coming to a head early that January, actually, when we had gotten back together. We were living together again. She came home after going to dinner with what I had thought was just her dad. Turned out it was both her parents, actually, which was weird because her parents were already divorced at this point, so for them to be in a room together was odd. Basically, they brought her to dinner and told her how she looked like she was going through hell and how awful I was and how I was never gonna change and how they were basically telling her she needed to leave me in kind of no uncertain terms and that I was a piece of shit. Yeah. And she came home feeling obviously very, you know, stressed and sad by that and very uncharacteristically for her, spent about 20 to 30 minutes just screaming at me, absolutely unloading, saying some pretty terrible, very cutting things, including, like, I know you're going to quote, unquote, relapse right after this. You're a monster, you know, and you, you. You don't think I'm enough. All untrue things. She also said I needed to find a different career other than music, other than the entertainment industry, because if I ever went on tour, I would cheat on her. In her mind and in her parents mind, they had told her to say that as well. And they themselves said that to me point blank, you need to find a different career. A couple times.

Carah Burrell [01:13:41] Oh, man.

McKay Johnson [01:13:42] Yeah, it was. It was tough. And actually, that was. I went and talked with the therapist I had at the time who was a member of the church, and he said, well, maybe that is what the Lord wants you to give up. And that was the first time in my life that I actually experienced very real suicidal ideation. Was being told that by my wife, her parents, and even my therapist saying, well, maybe that's what the Lord wants you to give up. And the thought of living my life and not being able to do what I love made me feel like I wanted to kill myself.

Carah Burrell [01:14:23] Yeah, there's a reason why it's called like, a starving artist, a starving, like, musician. It's like you don't do it necessarily for the money. The money could be good, but it's like, you do it for the love of, like, music. The power of rock, right?

McKay Johnson [01:14:32] Like, the power of rock.

Carah Burrell [01:14:33] And, like, if you don't have a partner that's in that with you, like, where are you gonna go in your

McKay Johnson [01:14:37] marriage if they're not. If they're not supportive. Exactly. And I feel. And I feel like, again, systems, not people. A lot of that does come from the way the Mormon Church stresses so much, the idea of the nuclear family man with a 9 to 5 and, you know, was able to be home and take his kids to church every Sunday and go to the temple together and whatnot. Because I had received a lot of messages like that from relatives all growing up, you know, mostly aunts and uncles. My parents would, you know, tell me to, you know, thoroughly research things and, you know, be sure of my decisions regarding my career. But at the end of the day, they were always very supportive of me wanting to be a professional musician too much to their credit. That kind of goes against the grain of what I feel like a lot of people in Mormonism and in our own extended family said to me all the time.

Carah Burrell [01:15:27] So were you able to, I guess, kick the pornography habit to your wife's.

McKay Johnson [01:15:33] Yeah, I wasn't looking at all at the time. Wasn't masturbating, nothing. But then after that kind of outburst that night, a few days went by and she apologized for yelling at me and stuff, not necessarily for the things she said. But then a few days later, we had, like, a very minor argument. And after that, she was like, I think I'm going to go live with my mom again. I need time to heal and yada yada. And to me, that seemed counterintuitive. I was like, aren't we trying to heal our marriage together, like. But she left again, and a month later, I. It was the day before my birthday. So February 22, 2020. We had just had a great weekend together the weekend before for Valentine's Day. Gone on a few really fun dates. It felt like we weren't fighting at all. And it felt like things were kind of getting back to normal. February 22nd, I wake up and I have just this weird feeling of dread, kind of a pit in my stomach. And I remember just glancing at her Facebook page and every picture of us was gone. Her name was changed back to her maiden name. And at this point, I started having what I can only describe as a panic attack, which I'd never had before in my life. And I tried calling her no answer. Tried several more times, no answer. I was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna eat breakfast and I'll call her again. So I did that. Multiple calls, no answer. I finally decided, okay, I'm gonna drive the 30 minutes up to her mom's house where she's staying to figure out what in the hell is going on. And literally, as I'm hopping into the car, she calls me back and she's like, hey. And I'm like, hey, honey, what's happening? Why is your name changed to your maiden name on Facebook? And where are all the pictures of us? And she said, mckay, I'm divorced. Forcing you. I already talked to a lawyer. I told him everything. And that turned into a somewhat heated, somewhat weepy, sobbing discussion of, like, I don't understand. I'm literally doing everything for you right now. I'm literally considering letting go of my career that I've worked for since I was 12 years old. Like, I haven't looked at porn in months. I haven't masturbated, yada, yada, yada. And she just wouldn't have any of it. And she.

John Dehlin [01:18:10] So did she say. Did she say why?

McKay Johnson [01:18:13] So later. Later she did. So to make a long story short in that regard, so the next day, on my birthday, she came and got all her things. And she was. It was so weird. She was so cold, like, would barely talk to me. It was. It was. It was a goddamn nightmare that I had never wanted to live. And a couple, I think a couple months later, we were texting, probably just about some of the divorce proceedings that needed to happen or whatever. And. Or maybe we were talking on the phone. It's a little cloudy, maybe a little blocked out because of trauma. And, you know, I asked her, like, you know, why? Because I had stopped, you know, I was, like, complying with all her demands, basically. And she. And she said, you know, we've both just. We've changed so much, and you're not the same guy that I fell in love with, and I'm not the same girl either. And at the end of the day, I think it came down to those things. And she couldn't support my career, and she couldn't get it out of her head that I was some sort of monster or something for having normal human sexual urges as an early twenties something year old man. And also, I think it does all kind of stem from the fact that we didn't date long enough. We got married too young. And I'm not saying that if we had dated longer that we necessarily would never have gotten married. Maybe we still would have, because I know I did. I did love her, and I know she did love me. But at the end of the day, you know, at the same time, maybe we wouldn't have. You know, maybe we would have dated longer and realized, you know, we've got a lot of chemistry and attraction here and there's some things we have in common, but maybe we're just not the best match. And that would have been far better than what actually happened. But unfortunately, there's this whole Mormon purity culture, chastity teachings, and such a heavy emphasis on marriage, marriage, marriage, eternal marriage. And two years post mission, I already felt like the proverbial old maid menace to society. Like, I need to get married now. You know, and that messaging was all just reinforced through church messages and leaders and relatives. So it's definitely complicated. Like, her reasons, I think a lot of it definitely stems. Comes from those initial things, for sure.

Carah Burrell [01:20:50] That's. Yeah, that's really sad because I've also

McKay Johnson [01:20:53] seen this happen to a lot of friends as well, and it's sad every time.

Carah Burrell [01:20:57] Yeah. Like, church, please stop putting people in this pressure cooker. Like, please call it this culture. Like, I want a healthy marriages, everybody church outside the church. Like, we want healthy marriages. And these. Some of these things are just, like, not conducive to, like, all of this trauma and breakups and kids and so many problems. They get thrown into that mix. And then what did your. What did the divorce do to your faith then, at that point?

McKay Johnson [01:21:21] Yeah, my shelf broke at that point. It was already hanging by a thread. I was already at a point where I kind of felt pretty atheist. I wouldn't admit that, but on the inside, I was like, it just doesn't. God just doesn't make sense to me anymore. And I don't think there is one. But I was trying so hard to save my marriage that I was continuing to go through the motions and trying, like, reading my scriptures, doing everything that a good Mormon guy does to try and build faith and whatnot. But it was pretty much gone at that point. And especially after all the stuff I'd been through at BYU and all the pharisaical culture there, and learning about all those things with the LGBT community and becoming really good friends with Wesley and seeing all the pain that the church put him and. And his family through, it was the last straw. The only thing keeping me in the church at that point was my marriage. And with that gone, I was like, I'm done, I'm out, and I Never looked back, never went to church again. Within a couple months, I think I decided. I think I want to remove my records. I don't want to be any part of this organization that has been so racist in the past, is currently still very sexist, very homophobic in so many ways. And that just brought me so much pain, literally, because of the things that it taught and that it told me to do with my life.

Carah Burrell [01:22:56] So it sounds like the. Sorry, you're gonna finish. No, no, please, I was just gonna ask. It sounds like a lot of the things, like the common truth claims, the CES letters are the things that are more common, especially with people on Mormon stories that actually break their shelves. It sounds like you're literally saying that just like empathy for other people told you that this isn't adding up.

McKay Johnson [01:23:16] Who'd have thunk it? Empathy for other people and for myself is basically what broke my shelf. So it wasn't the kind of. The story that I've heard a lot, both on this podcast and just in general is, yeah, someone read the CES letter and that broke their shelf, right? And that is totally valid. Valid. Nothing wrong with that. But my path out was definitely different. I had read prior to deciding I was done with the church, like one teeny little snippet of the CES letter because it never sat well with me. Several of the Joseph Smith things like coerced polygamy and also the fact that he married 14 year old girls. So I remember probably in the last couple months of my membership in the church reading that and being kind of shaken, but then immediately running to fair Mormon to try and, like, assuage my conscience, that conscience that, oh, no, it's fine, everything's fine over here in the church. Like, it's still true. But no, it was not fine. Internally, just my insides, spiritually speaking, were just roiling with kind of really complex feelings and emotions. And eventually I did start getting more into the, I guess, quote unquote, ex Mormon type of stuff, like reading the CES letter and TikTok. But it took me several months. So post divorce and leaving the church, you know, it was just kind of 2020 was a bad year for everyone, right? And for me, it was kind of compounded by the divorce and a faith crisis. And I spent. I could not sleep because, A, I was depressed from my wife leaving me and B, I was depressed from there's no God, which is this kind of basic assurance that I had grown up my whole life having. And for that to be taken away, like, and honestly taken away. Like, I didn't just decide out of the blue one day I'm not going to believe in God anymore. Like, to those who might be listening to or watching this, thinking that, like, that was a very painful process, arriving at that conclusion. And that is not the conclusion that I wanted in any sense. And eventually in fall of 2020, I had like downloaded TikTok just for fun. Right. I was just gonna, like, see what it was about, maybe make some fun videos, how it starts. And that damn algorithm. I mean, and you know, we talk about Google and Siri. Listening in on our conversations can confirm they do because by this point, Wesley and I were roommates. And not. I don't want to tell too much of his story, but he also went through divorce. You guys plug for him. You guys should totally have him on here. We would talk about ex Mormon stuff a lot of the time. I'm sure our phones were listening. And one of the first videos that pops up on my TikTok feed after downloading the app last fall of 2020 was ExmoLex. And I watched it for a second and as soon as I realized what she was talking about, I was like, this is bringing up all my trauma scroll.

Carah Burrell [01:26:09] Oh, wow. Like, that's like, not even an exaggeration. Like, I'm sure that honestly happened and happens to people. Like, I'm not ready to address this issue yet. But the algorithm just like feeds you things on TikTok.

McKay Johnson [01:26:21] Yep. And it kept feeding me those things. So eventually I started watching her videos. Ex Mormon Mindy started popping up. And honestly, a huge shout out and thank you to the two of them for.

Carah Burrell [01:26:29] For sure, for sure.

McKay Johnson [01:26:30] For being a way that I've helped that. That has helped me process a lot of my trauma.

Carah Burrell [01:26:35] Shout out Exmo Lex, ex Mormon, Mindy.

McKay Johnson [01:26:37] And NuanceHoe.

Carah Burrell [01:26:38] Shout out NuanceHoe, wherever you are. Bless you.

McKay Johnson [01:26:42] Yeah, so those three actually. You, you, three. I guess I should say I started seeing those videos more and more on my. For your page. And eventually I was like, oh, what the hell, I'll follow them. And then that just kind of opened the floodgates and it helped me really start processing all these feelings that for months I had not wanted to deal with. I'd just been like, I'm just gonna leave the church, but I'll be that ex Mormon who actually does leave the church alone.

Carah Burrell [01:27:04] Well, we've all been there.

McKay Johnson [01:27:06] There's a reason. There's a reason why so many of us don't. Right? And, you know, if there's. There are Some of us who do, like, good for them.

Carah Burrell [01:27:15] Good for them. For sure.

McKay Johnson [01:27:16] This organization caused me and caused a lot of us a lot of pain and it needs to be spoken about and hopefully at the very least, to bring about positive change for the people who choose to remain and just for everyone in general, especially those of us who live in Utah, where the legislature is like practically controlled by the church. You know, that'd be nice.

Carah Burrell [01:27:38] It's got its hands in a lot of spaces.

McKay Johnson [01:27:40] Yeah, for sure.

Carah Burrell [01:27:43] And then what gave you. So you said you downloaded Tick Tock. You started to feel inspired maybe by content creators that you saw on there. And then for every Tick Tocker, John asked me this question when I was on as well, and it almost was a no brainer to me to go from like just throwing my hat into the ring, you could say of like, yeah, I want to make ex Mormon content. I know people are going to be upset, but I felt like the house was already kind of burned down. Like, why not play in the ashes? I already told my family I was leaving the church. So what gave you, like, what inspired you? What gave you the confidence to start making your own content? Then onto.

McKay Johnson [01:28:15] Well, well, so there were a couple things. First of all, like I said when I first started seeing those Exmo videos, it started bringing back up all this trauma. And then just add to that the fact that last. Last November, December of 2020 is kind of when my depression from the divorce and everything was about at its height to the point where I was like inches away from cutting myself.

Carah Burrell [01:28:38] Oh, wow.

McKay Johnson [01:28:39] And yeah, like, literally I had a knife in my hand one night in December last year, and right as I was about to do the deed, like, the door opened and Wesley and it came home and was like, hey, I got pizza. Like, not knowing what he had just saved me from.

Carah Burrell [01:28:53] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] So, yeah, a little bit of a. Sometimes some viewers like a bit of a content warning or a trigger warning that this is some of, some of the more emotional stuff to be talking about it. We, we did a really good episode on self harm.

Carah Burrell [01:29:09] Yeah. With a Tick Tock friend of mine, Kelsey Marie Warner.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] Kelsey Marie Warner. And we're really grateful for that. What was it self harm or was it. Or was it kind of suicidal ideation for you?

Suicidal Ideation, Recovery, and Creating Content

McKay Johnson [01:29:22] Well, I had, I had suicidal ideation for sure for a large part of 2020. But where I was, I guess, quote unquote, thinking of starting, which is a terrible thing to think about now, was like just cutting myself, my wrists, particularly as self harm. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Okay.

McKay Johnson [01:29:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] And for Listeners who don't have any idea why you would that occur to you? Can you explain what it is about intense psychological, physical pain that would lead to that? That I don't want to say choice, but those actions.

McKay Johnson [01:30:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] Those thoughts.

McKay Johnson [01:30:05] It's complicated and I think in large part it came from the fact that I felt so, like, so deep down in this dark depression. And I just felt to the point where I just felt numb and like I wanted to feel something. And even the. To the point where the thought of maybe making myself feel some intense physical pain might be better than kind of the depression that I was in. And, you know, thankfully I was kind of saved from that inadvertently by my very good friend Wesley. And then my family was aware that I was at very least depressed and did some really kind things for me that last Christmas, that helped me out a lot. And eventually by January, I was like, okay, I need to start going to therapy. Because for almost a solid year post divorce and post leaving the church, I was like, I don't want to go to therapy. I don't want to talk about this shit with anyone. I just want to throw it in a deep, dark hole and lock the key and just never, never deal with it. Right. But that is, I think, a large part of precisely what led to me feeling so depressed to the point where I was having suicidal ideation and very close to self harm. Right. So I guess, plug for therapy. Anyone listening to this or watching this? For sure, if you're, if you're in that kind of headspace, it is so much better to talk about it with a qualified professional than to just let it fester. You don't want to go to that dark place.

Carah Burrell [01:31:41] Trust me, throwing it in a dark hole, not productive. Counterintuitive. Yeah. Shaming spouses for pornography is counter to it.

McKay Johnson [01:31:50] Yep. All those things.

Carah Burrell [01:31:52] Yeah, that's super hard stuff to deal with. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

McKay Johnson [01:31:56] Thank you. But yeah. So then during the first few months of 2021, I was still watching a lot of ex Mormon content, but the thought hadn't really occurred to me to create my own channel on TikTok, my own page. Right. Well, I stumbled upon Mormon Stories podcast this past spring. I'd heard of it before, but all I had heard of it was, oh, that's an anti Mormon podcast. Don't listen to that. When I was a member of the church. And then it hadn't occurred to me that it would be helpful for me to start listening to the podcast.

Carah Burrell [01:32:28] It hadn't occurred to you that John isn't Mormon? Voldemort.

McKay Johnson [01:32:31] John D. John D.

Carah Burrell [01:32:35] He's not.

McKay Johnson [01:32:37] I can't get over that.

Carah Burrell [01:32:39] No.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [01:32:40] John is a really nice guy, everybody.

Carah Burrell [01:32:42] Yeah. So you got over what you. Your preoccupation with what Mormon stories might be.

McKay Johnson [01:32:48] Yeah. And I just started listening to some episodes and I was like, whoa, this is like, helpful for me. And at the same time, I was going through therapy. So at this point, I was definitely on the up and up, mentally and emotionally speaking. And then, I mean, I listened to your interview, Carah, and it was just awesome. And then I ended up listening this past May at some point to Exmo Lex's interview here on Mormon Stories. And, you know, she was already a creator that I had been again following for several months and really enjoying her ex Mormon content on TikTok. And listening to her story was one of two kind of big main things that catalyzed me to start my own TikTok page. So while I was listening to her story, she, in her story does talk about her experience with sexual assault. And for me, as a fellow sexual abuse survivor, that I was sitting in the car listening to it, I think, delivering doordash and I started crying. Yeah. And then also hearing her talk about a family member, I believe her dad tell her something about like, you know, you can leave the church, but shut up about it, stop talking about it or whatever. Because I then just a couple weeks later had an experience with an uncle who, to make a long story short, basically shamed me for leaving the church. Said some really nasty, nasty things. We were down visiting him and his family for his son, my cousin's mission, homecoming. And I had decided, you know, I'm not going to go to the church service. But everything else, all the other family activities that are planned for. For that weekend, the homecoming, like lunch and dinner afterwards, I'll be there for everything to support him. But I'm not going to go into a church building. I don't want to do it. It'll be triggering for me. I'll be sitting there just uncomfortable the whole time, probably like visibly agitated. And nobody wants that. Right.

Carah Burrell [01:34:49] Sounds like healthy boundaries that your family was totally amped to respect.

McKay Johnson [01:34:53] Well, my parents. My parents.

Carah Burrell [01:34:55] Your parents?

McKay Johnson [01:34:56] Yeah, I mean, they asked me to come and I was like, no, I'm not going. And they respected that. But my uncle, he comes takes me aside. Yeah, he comes and takes me aside. Later that day while everyone's like having the lunch and stuff, and we're alone in this one room where I'd just gone off to quietly eat, and he's like, hey, I noticed you didn't come to your cousin's homecoming talk. Why is that? And it's like, as if you don't know. But, you know, I initially just wanted to diffuse the situation. So I'm just like, oh, well, I'm kind of experiencing some allergies, wasn't feeling good, which actually was true, but that wasn't, of course, the only reason why I didn't go. And then he just cuts me off and he's like, I know you've fallen away. I'm so sorry for the way that woman betrayed you, but you're throwing away the light and goodness that can bring you happiness. And like, yo, I had not seen this uncle, I'm pretty sure, since my wedding, certainly not since getting divorced. I would have loved it if he had come and talked to me and just said, I'm so sorry for all that you've been through with your divorce. And, you know, I know you've left the church, and if you want to talk about that, I'm here for you. But if not, it's cool. But no, he had to preach to me, basically. And at one point he even literally said, and I quote, I wonder if you didn't come to the to church today because you couldn't stand the light. Oh, how that A is just so untrue. B, made my blood boil, and C was so uncalled for. Like, so, so out of pocket, out of line, out of left field, like your uncle. You're. I hate to use this term. I know we're trying to be believer friendly here, but in the moment, my thought was your cult has absolutely zero light to offer me and in fact has been the source of most of the dark times in my life. So don't tell me that I can't stand the light of your little boys club, your little church or whatever, which is statistically insignificant compared to the rest of the world. And there's a lot of light in a lot of other religions and a lot of other people, let me tell ya.

Carah Burrell [01:37:01] So what did you end up saying?

McKay Johnson [01:37:02] I didn't say any of that at the time I said, I did say, wow, that's really hurtful and untrue and not okay of you to say. And then he kind of, you know, sidestepped and, like, he was very attacking with the way he was talking to me. Like, you know, well, what do you believe? And what if I'm right and you're wrong? And then what Happens after we die, huh? And I'm like, well, I'm sure you believe I'm going to hell. I don't believe that place exists, but whatever, I guess we won't know until we die. And then he had the audacity at the end of this conversation to say like, your blood, I love you. I'd do anything for you. And I'm like, okay, thanks. Love you too. And in my head, I'm thinking, oh, you love me? You'd do anything for me, Your blood? How about you love me enough to respect my boundaries and love me for who I am and not for who or what you think I should be? And that is a huge problem that I've seen a lot since leaving the church with a lot of. Of members of the church who. And I get it, like, it's so ingrained, it's so near and dear to them, that any call out of something the church does wrong or even just us leaving the church feels like an attack to them. They feel like they have to defend it. But I'm here to tell any believing Mormon listening to this, you don't. You don't have to. All you have to do is literally what Jesus himself said and just love people as they are and leave it at that.

Carah Burrell [01:38:31] Right on. Right on. Mic drop, by the way. McKay.

McKay Johnson [01:38:34] Oh, thanks. So that was the final straw for me to be like, I'm starting a TikTok. My mind didn't immediately go there, but I needed someone to vent to. I actually messaged you, Carah, on Instagram.

Carah Burrell [01:38:49] That's how I first met McKay. Virtually was him telling me that story.

McKay Johnson [01:38:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] And then.

McKay Johnson [01:38:55] And then I decided the first thing I was gonna do was I came out publicly on my Facebook that I had left the church. And it was kind of a bit of a manifesto where I listed some of my reasons, really, in a kind of respectful way, I would say, actually. And if anyone wants to read that, it's on my Facebook. You can just look up McKay, Johnson. That post is public. My profile is public. You're welcome to go.

Carah Burrell [01:39:19] That's actually really good advice, too, because so many people are, you know, should I come out publicly on Facebook? Should I tell people? Should I not?

McKay Johnson [01:39:26] Yeah. And I feel like, you know, that decision is completely up to the individual. For over a year, I had thought I wasn't going to do that, but then these things kind of. I don't want to say forced my hand, but they definitely made me think, oh, maybe it would be a good thing for me to very clearly and very loudly tell the world, this is who I am, this is where I stand. Respect my boundaries and I'll respect yours. And you know, to those who are inclined to not do so, back the hell off, basically. And, you know, so anyways, afterwards, I mean, I blocked that particular uncle and you know, I guess throwing this out there, if he ever wants to have contact again and repair that bridge, that relationship, he needs to apologize sincerely to me without any justification for the way he kind of verbally attacked me and shamed me just for leaving the church and that I have that boundary now with any family, if they do anything similar, I have no need for that, they will be cut out of my life. And, you know, that sucks to feel like I had to do that.

Carah Burrell [01:40:35] For sure it sucks, but I had

McKay Johnson [01:40:38] to do that, you know.

Carah Burrell [01:40:39] Yeah. To like maintain a healthy, just like mental state post church, you kind of have to be your own advocate. And I think you're doing that really, really well. That's a really good way to put all of that too. Wish you could, you know, that old. I wish I go back and I wish I could do things differently when you're going through your faith crisis and your journey and you don't always do things perfectly. But then also Mormons are also still figuring out how do I talk to my non believing friends and family. And we're all still trying to like have empathy for each other in different places, you know, for sure. Super difficult to navigate these water.

McKay Johnson [01:41:12] It is, it is, it's. Yeah, they're murky waters, to say the least. Stormy waters maybe is a better, better way of putting it. But yeah. And then after that I posted on Facebook and then that post kind of blew up. And then I joined some ex Mormon Facebook groups because I was finally like, you know, I need to make friends who've gone through these same things and like, that we can bond and stuff. And I made like a little glow up post in a couple of those groups and those blew up.

Carah Burrell [01:41:36] What do you mean by glow up posts?

McKay Johnson [01:41:37] Like, I post, I posted a post picture of what I used to look like and what I look like now. So like the short hair kind of RM look versus long hair, beard, white man, Jesus look. And those posts blew up. And I just had kind of introduced myself and I wasn't intending for it to be like a thirst trap or anything, but there were some thirsty comments from men and women in those comments sections. And I was like, I started thinking maybe, you know, I can have a positive impact on people by creating content and I'd kind of already been thinking of that from the experiences of listening to Examo Lex's Mormon stories interview and the whole thing that happened with my uncle. So started a new TikTok. Decided I would call it Spartacus Unchained Spartacus, because that's been my kind of drummer, stage name, nickname since I was 13 years old. And Unchained.

Carah Burrell [01:42:28] Good choice by the way.

McKay Johnson [01:42:29] Thank you. Unchained because it feels like I've broken these chains of Mormonism and organized religion in general that were not doing much good for me in my life for 24 years. And I, you know, started making a lot of videos. And the fifth video I posted was about my submission, sexual abuse and how that was one thing that led to me leaving the church. And that video went viral.

Carah Burrell [01:43:05] Really?

McKay Johnson [01:43:06] Yeah, I posted it.

Carah Burrell [01:43:06] What was the reception?

McKay Johnson [01:43:07] Well, I posted it super late at night, woke up the next morning and I had that little like 99 notifications thing on TikTok, which I know you're very familiar with, Carah. And I was like, holy shit. And it already had over 100,000 views at that time. And within a couple days it passed half a million and then it kind of slowed down. Now it's at like 600,000 or something. Still my most viewed video to this day.

Carah Burrell [01:43:29] What do you discuss exactly in that video? Was it only a minute long too?

McKay Johnson [01:43:33] Yeah, it's just a one minute TikTok. It's that popular audio where it's like it's everything you ever want, you know, from Greatest Showman. Right? Except then it slows down at the end. By the end it's like just the voice and it's like really quiet and kind of sad, depressing sounding. And it talks about how I went from, you know, like getting ready for the mission. Received my mission call, like meeting my trainer. He starts sexually harassing me. I don't have anyone to talk to and I don't speak the language yet he fully sexually assaults me. I'm shamed for being assaulted. And you know, it just kind of goes downhill from there, right? Like at the very. By the end it's like finding out Joseph Smith was a sexual predator who used religion to get women to have sex with him. And then the last one is like realizing I spent two years preaching a lie, enduring sexual abuse in poor conditions to preach a lie to people. And from there I was like, well, full send. I guess I'm going to do these TikToks more. And I've had some other videos that have gotten pretty good kind of similar traction. And it's been a thing for me that has opened so many doors. And, you know, aside from, like, just being here, like meeting you guys, I mean, Carah, I met you before I ever had any inkling of, oh, maybe I'll be on Mormon Stories podcast and share my story with people or whatever. It led to me making some amazing friends who I think will be lifelong friends over this summer. And it's been very cathartic for me and very healing. And that's another thing that I want believing Mormon listeners to understand. Understand that me and other TikTok content creators in the ex Mormon realm of TikTok, you know, putting these things out that may sometimes might be offensive to you. I've put out some videos of me doing silly dances in temple clothes and kind of making fun of that. But I just plead that active Mormons understand where we're coming from. The temple, for me, represents all sorts of trauma and all sorts of abusive practices, represents lies and lack of informed consent. Like, none of us know what the temple is going to be about when we go through. None of us know beforehand that some of the. I'm trying to be respectful here. Some of the hand signs in there, or at least that used to be in there that still kind of are there are like, literally representing a dagger to spill your own blood should you disclose any of the temple secrets. You know, that. That kind of thing, like, so realize that us making fun of maybe some of those things helps us take our power back.

Carah Burrell [01:46:13] Right, right.

McKay Johnson [01:46:14] And helps us process the trauma that we have felt as a result. Result of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:46:18] Because so often it's just interpreted as mocking what's sacred to other people. Yeah, that's how people. But. But I don't think that's what's totally going on. I think it's about trying to heal it is. And people. People can't understand that. Why would you have to mock? You know, they always say they can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. Or they say, oh, they're so angry or they're so bitter. What would you. If you. If you had to kind of look in the camera and talk to faithful believers that. That see that stuff and just say, well, that's mocking and sacrilege. What's your heartfelt attempt to explain how that's actually healing for you? You said taking your power back, but maybe.

McKay Johnson [01:46:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] Anything else you'd want to say about that?

McKay Johnson [01:46:58] Well, I mean, imagine that you are. That's there's something or someone in your life that holds power over you, very real power, like having to do with your eternal salvation. And that creates a lot of fear in you. And if you do anything wrong that you're damned to hell or something, that's totally what the temple is. You know, if you reveal the signs and tokens, there's literally a line at the temple where Satan says, if you don't walk up to all the covenants made in these temple temples in this day, you'll be in his power. You know, so imagine that if you will something that has a lot of power and instills a lot of fear and control over you, and then you come to the conclusion that that stuff is not true, but it still kind of holds a lot of. A lot of power and fear over you. I have friends who have been out of the church for years and they still get kind of uneasy talking about stuff inside the temple and stuff, even though they don't believe it because they're like, well, but what if. And so for me, being able to laugh at those things, being able to laugh at hell, being able to laugh at my sexual abuser, being able to laugh at, yes, some aspects of Mormonism helps me to not feel fear of those things anymore, which in my mind is an irrational, unnecessary fear. It helps me to feel happy and get over that and heal from the trauma that those things have caused for me. And I know it does that for others too. I get DMs on Instagram and TikTok all the time from people saying, thank you for your video where you who danced in temple clothes, like, which may seem weird and silly, but because it literally, they might even have a higher level of fear of the temple ceremony than I do. And it helps them to process and deal with that. So it's not about just, you know, oh, let's make fun of the Mormons or whatever, good old persecution complex. Like, literally. I've said this from day one. My ex Mormon context content is for ex Mormons. It's not for Mormons. Occasionally I'll put out a video that's actually directed to active believing members of the church, like some trying to be thought provoking or start a constructive discussion about something and hoping that they might try and advocate for positive change within the religion. But at the end of the day, a lot of my content is more about helping other people who have been through the church and come out the other side, scarred and bruised and bloodied and battered and beaten down, to be able to heal from that. And just creating the content has been helpful for me. And I feel like I'm just paying forward the help and healing that I received from watching Ex Molex and Ex Mormon Mindy and Nuance Hoes content and other great I just want to shout out all these amazing creators. We don't have time to shout everyone out, but there's a lot. And we're here trying to build our own community and pick up the shattered pieces of our lives and have still, still have some sense of meaning and a new sense of community when the old one was kind of ripped away from us.

Carah Burrell [01:49:59] That's super, super well said. And as somebody who I also make humorous content technically forex Mormons, but Mormons are welcome to watch it as well. But like I always say, if somebody tells me to stop making the content content that I make, I'm just like, this validates people leaving the church who are going through hard things and it makes them laugh. Like, should I not, like, should McKay not make that anymore? And I think that usually kind of creates a type of light bulb in people when they actually have to come to terms with like, I'm telling you what my content's for. If it's not for you, should I just not make it? All of a sudden and they're like, okay, I can understand it's technically not for me. Like, you can scroll on. You don't need to go out of your way to comment. I totally get that it's something sacred to you, but I think you, you, you put it perfectly. And if anyone wants to go back and listen to XML X's Mormon Stories interview, she talks about why she wears her temple clothes and I don't wear temple clothes in my videos. But I have no shade against it because it's a certain type of like temple trauma that you're like, these are my clothes. Like XML actually did a great job of explaining that as well. Like these were.

McKay Johnson [01:51:03] If you ever want to do a temple clothes dance collab with them, I

Carah Burrell [01:51:06] love you have really the. The what's the dance one again?

McKay Johnson [01:51:11] Coincidance. Me and my friend Courtney did that one. I will shout her out. Just court X everyone go follow her anyways.

Carah Burrell [01:51:17] Yeah, yeah. And I for like you were just explaining like we can totally accept that like when you're in the church these things are sacred, but you're taking back your power in a different way. And secondly, I just wanted to also shout out how cool it is that what we get to do here in this room, like in Mormon stories is that doesn't always feel like it, but like when we were recording and I was over there with Xmo Lex and just that that had such a good wave and an influence that. That now we have. Somebody who listened to that podcast episode that was inspired by it is now, like, here sitting in the chair being interviewed, and, like, hopefully that will spur other people and inspire other people. And that your story and the things that you've been through and the way that you've grown from it, like, that is going to have other really cool ripple effects. And I hope, hope that people can, like, garner a lot of, you know, taking back their own PRI power and their own confidence, whatever, in whatever aspect that they need. Like, so. Yeah, so thank you, McKay, for sharing all of that.

McKay Johnson [01:52:13] Yeah, absolutely. And that's. That's my hope, too. I mean, again, I have to emphasize I'm not out here trying to bash people per se, or even, like, bash the church, really. I think my end goal is I want the Mormon Church to be able to change things that it does or teaches that are harmful to people, specifically things that it's done or teaches that have been harmful to me in my life and that I've seen it be harmful to others in their lives. And at the end of the day, yeah, I'll be 100% honest. Even if it does change those things. I'm never going to rejoin the church now. That has more to do with just the fact that now I'm pretty atheist, don't really believe in God anymore. But would I love to see, you know, a church and organized religions in general that are much kinder to people and promotes, like, healthy attitudes about sex and abuse and mental health and the LGBT community, all that stuff. Yes, I would love to see that

Carah Burrell [01:53:16] advocate for the victims.

McKay Johnson [01:53:18] Yeah. Instead of, you know, sending a hotline to Curtin McConkey legal team to sweep it under the rug. Man, that still makes my blood boil thinking of that. But things like that, those are legitimately, quantifiably harmful things that can change and I think can change without necessarily altering some core beliefs in God and Jesus and the atonement and whatnot, or hell, even eternal families, we can still hold our, like, near and dear beliefs while changing the harmful things that have come about because of them.

Carah Burrell [01:53:55] Right on. And so since you've kind of, like, thrown your hat into talking about your experiences, your traumas, making your own tick tock and things, sounds like you do have some, like, a real heart for speaking about these messages, making TikTok, being an advocate. So what are your future plans in this kind of, like, Ex Mormon space moving forward.

McKay Johnson [01:54:20] Well, I'm gonna keep making. Making content on TikTok for one. I mean, that this whole soaking thing that has been going on, this Soaktober has just opened up a whole new world.

Carah Burrell [01:54:32] You've been making content about that?

McKay Johnson [01:54:33] A whole new world? Yes, actually, I just released a couple.

John Dehlin [01:54:36] But for our listeners, what is. What is Soaktober? For our viewers and listeners who don't

McKay Johnson [01:54:40] know, Soaktober is a month, usually in October, dedicated to the fascinating subject of soaking in Mormondom, which I love how

Carah Burrell [01:54:54] I asked you about advocacy and you're like, we're gonna talk about soaking. We're gonna get to the really important stuff.

McKay Johnson [01:55:00] No, no, I'm gonna.

Carah Burrell [01:55:02] It's because it's also fun. Don't forget we are also here for the lulz.

McKay Johnson [01:55:05] We're here for the.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] Yeah.

McKay Johnson [01:55:06] And there are totally things that stem from Mormon culture, like soaking or dirfing, that are just funny and fun and harmless for anyone on any side of the faith spectrum that I think we can totally just laugh at and kind of make fun of and, like, it's fine. And, you know, soaking is one of those things. But I am also going to continue to make serious videos advocating for sexual abuse survivors and advocating for changes in. In purity culture and all that jazz.

Carah Burrell [01:55:34] Yeah, you make a good variety of videos. This is also just kind of like what I want to get across to the audience.

McKay Johnson [01:55:37] I try to. Yeah, I try to strike a balance between the really serious heavy ones and then the lighthearted, funny ones and the temple clothes dance ones. There'll be more of those. More Jesus cosplays for sure. Yeah, that's kind of my plans. As far as Exmo TikTok goes. I'll be at Thrive, attending, just having a ball this November, so.

Carah Burrell [01:55:58] Oh, good. People can come get a hug from Spartacus.

McKay Johnson [01:56:00] Yeah, come get a hug hug if you would like a hug.

Carah Burrell [01:56:02] Oh, good. Yeah. This is just like an impromptu, like, commercial for Thrive on accident. We didn't even mean to bring it up. Thrive is coming to the Salt Palace November 14th. I will be doing a big tick tock panel with a bunch of people. We got XMO, Lex, Exor and Mindy, Eileen, Jack Mormon, Jordan and McKay. Devil trout. Me, me doing a big fun thing at Thrive. Get your tickets. Register now@thrivebeyondreligion.com. sorry to interrupt, but I felt like I just had to. John, that was. We're. We're towards the end, wrapping up, but there's one more thing that I wanted to ask McKay about obviously, which is. So you went through what sounds like a pretty traumatic, horrible divorce. And a major reason was because that you were just not going to be able to see eye to eye about your career and being a musician for a living. Tell me about how your career is going and your passion for music.

McKay Johnson [01:57:01] Well, right after the divorce, I mean, things took a downward turn for the entertainment industry with the Pandemic, which shall not be named, but we as a band, My band is called Suit Up Soldier. Everyone, we stuck it out and we managed to. We had a tour planned which got canceled for 2020. So instead we ran a Kickstarter campaign, raised enough money to make our debut album, which is out now on all streaming and download services. So Spotify, Apple Music, you name it. The name of our debut album is Curse the Day I Act My Age, which is a line from our current most popular song, Tongue Tied Twisted, which just recently passed a million streams on Spotify.

Carah Burrell [01:57:43] No way. Yeah. Congratulations.

McKay Johnson [01:57:45] Thank you. It's one small step and hopefully there will be more of those. But my plans with that are to continue, continue playing drums, continue writing songs, continue singing, and particularly with this band and probably some solo stuff down the road as well. We just are at close to the end of our first kind of mini regional tour. We were in Rexburg, Idaho this past weekend, which was our funnest tour date.

Carah Burrell [01:58:11] Two days home of byu, Idaho.

McKay Johnson [01:58:13] Yes. Those kids are so repressed. They just go crazy for any concert happening. It was. It was great. It was a good time. We went to Los Angeles before that and we had a show in Provo before that, and we're wrapping it up in Phoenix, Arizona next week. So I don't know if this is going to air before then, but if it does. October 21, Phoenix, Arizona, the Rebel Lounge. Come see me shredding the drums live with Suit Up Soldier. And look and follow us on, you know, Instagram, Facebook, Soldier.

Carah Burrell [01:58:40] So if people want to come out to a show eventually in the future, they can be able to find the next place that you're playing. On the Instagram.

McKay Johnson [01:58:46] Yeah, on the Instagram. Itupsoldier. Underscore on there and just follow us. And for good music, good times. And we always announce our shows, you know, beforehand so you can come, come see and go listen to us if you don't believe that we're any good. We're. I'd like to think we're a little bit above your average local quote unquote band. And we're really pursuing it full time at this point.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] I've checked out the music and I. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was probably.

McKay Johnson [01:59:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] Professional and fun and interesting and sophisticated and it gets a John de Lynn double thumbs up. We'll see. Carah.

McKay Johnson [01:59:22] Hell yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:59:24] I was watching his YouTube channel and he had a video on there, like that whole glow up thing that. Yeah, yeah. Before he looked like this and just like. Yeah. Do they really call it shredding of the drums? That's the first time I heard that.

McKay Johnson [01:59:36] Shredding the drums, beating the drums, banging the drums, banging the drums. I tried to avoid that last one

Carah Burrell [01:59:42] so much, you know, so much sexual

McKay Johnson [01:59:45] tension with that phrase. But, yeah, that's. That's how you can check out my band and I guess support me in that way. You can also follow my TikTok at Spartacus underscore unchained, if you would like some dank ex Mormon content.

Carah Burrell [02:00:01] Yeah, yeah, everybody check out Spartacus underscore unchained. Check up, check out, suit up, suit up, soldier. By the end of an interview, I literally can't talk sometimes because I'm like, dub, dub, dub, dub. So sorry, please do not tell me in the. I swear I can talk. It's just sometimes, you know, the hours go by. So. Any other. Any other quick plugs? Do we have anything else?

McKay Johnson [02:00:24] I just.

Carah Burrell [02:00:25] This is a really talented person in front of me and I'm like, please follow him, everybody.

McKay Johnson [02:00:29] Yeah, I appreciate the follows and I pledge to continue making fun and helpful content both, you know, with my TikTok and with the band. We've got a ton of new songs written that were just now starting to get into kind of recording and producing those songs and they'll be released. I can't give any dates, but hopefully soon. So just follow the band for updates on that. Yeah, I think. I think those are my plugs. My Venmo is at masterspartacus if anyone's interested.

Reflections, Music, and Closing Thoughts

Carah Burrell [02:00:57] Yeah, we always on Mormon stories to say, people get paid. You make great content. And when people DM you especially and you're like, oh, I didn't know. The content I was making was actually. Actually like helping people and stuff, so. So everybody please go follow McKay Spartacus underscore Unchained. Go follow his band, check out his music. He's extremely talented. Drumming looks easy. It is not. I've tried it. I gave up very quickly.

McKay Johnson [02:01:23] Thanks for that.

Carah Burrell [02:01:23] And relearning the saxophone right now, which is actually kind of easy.

McKay Johnson [02:01:25] We should jam.

Carah Burrell [02:01:26] I know. What else do we need for our. For our, like, Mormon Stories band? I think the saxophone, you're on the drums.

McKay Johnson [02:01:32] A bassist. We could, we could do just that. A trio.

Carah Burrell [02:01:34] Can we do like a stand up, like, base? Someone's going like. And you're like. And I'm like, just like that.

McKay Johnson [02:01:42] Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:01:43] Okay. Somebody transposed that song I just wrote. We'll play it real soon. Okay? You're such a fabulous human. And thank you for being like so incredibly vulnerable from start to finish about your story. And thank you obviously for driving up. We. This is a two part episode, by the way. So we made you come on, come in and tell your story in two separate parts.

McKay Johnson [02:02:04] So happy to do it.

Carah Burrell [02:02:06] It's like, it's, it's, it's kind of like emotionally draining and I know that it's difficult to get in the right head space to be able to explain all of these things. So really, thank you. Thank you so much for explaining all these things. And I hope viewers at home that you took something important and lovely from such a wonderful human coming in and telling everything that he's been through, through the good, the bad and the ugly. And John, do you have any other final thoughts?

John Dehlin [02:02:32] I'm just, you know, you talked about really important and for Mormon stories, groundbreaking topics.

Carah Burrell [02:02:37] I think so.

McKay Johnson [02:02:38] I think the male. Male sexual abuse and whatnot.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] Male sexual abuse and how the church, you know, I talk a lot about, you know, the church might call me Mormon Voldemort or talk about how Mormon stories is evil. The mission of the Open Stories foundation from the very beginning has been to. To help prevent unnecessary divorces, to help prevent depression and anxiety death by suicide. And this stuff is real. And we talk a lot about racism, sexism, homophobia. We don't talk a lot about the way the church destroys lives and families through sexual shame. We don't talk about that enough. And especially we don't talk about it enough from the male point of view. So your willingness to be vulnerable about being a victim of sexual abuse and how the church's unhealthy messages around porn and sexuality wrecked your marriage, when it seems as though two people cared about each other and could have built a life together, it's just. I'm so sorry for what you've been through. The church will never apologize to you. But Carah and I, for whatever it's worth, will say we're so sorry that happened to you.

McKay Johnson [02:03:46] Well, thank you, guys.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] It shouldn't have happened on your mission and it shouldn't have happened happened in your marriage. And we're sorry. But. But congratulations, because part of the healing is to Find a way to make meaning and purpose out of what you experienced. And what you're doing is telling your story. And it's going to help other people not feel so alone, not feel so ashamed, not feel like they're broken and bad. And maybe it'll help prevent other similar situations in the future. Future, either in people's private lives, or maybe the church will eventually get the message and start to make the meaningful change it needs to make. And the only way it happens is through people speaking up. And you did that. So I just want to thank you for that.

McKay Johnson [02:04:30] Thank you for having me on those. All those things are my hope for what can come of this.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:04:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] And, Carah, you do a fantastic job. Thanks for setting the stage up. And you are a talented interviewer. And I'm just. It's fun to be able to be here and watch you do your stuff. So thank you for setting this up, for making this happen. I didn't have to arrange this. I didn't have to schedule it. I didn't even have to prep for it, although I tried to read the outline and be prepped, but you're great. You're great, Carah, and you do a great job. And thank you for, for helping carry the load because it's nice to have people, people who are helping to carry it well.

Carah Burrell [02:05:11] Thank you. And I want to be able to tell as many stories as we can. And if, you know, it's difficult for John to schedule so many. And I want to get people in here telling many diverse and different stories as possible. And it's only when I become a little bit painfully aware whenever John talks. And I was like, that's a great point. I could just listen to John talk all day. I wonder how many other people are feeling that way too. And I was sitting over there, and he's over there, there, and he's over here.

McKay Johnson [02:05:34] No, for the record, I very much enjoyed having you interview me.

Carah Burrell [02:05:38] I wasn't looking for compliments. But, John, you add so much, like, good, you know, clinical psychology perspective that I always, always love. And I think it always, like, brings really good context to the things that our guests come on and bring and talk about. And so thank you for that little, even that little post wrap up of how important talking about these subjects are. Because, yes, we do talk about the really, you know, obvious problems with the church's LGBTQ issues and racism and sexism, but just like, I think it's like, almost ubiquitous to a standard Mormon marriage experience is a spouse struggling with, like, a porn addiction again. I'm putting that in quote.

McKay Johnson [02:06:17] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:06:18] And the fallout and like the church expecting that one spouse was always just, just kind of like reigning over the other one, checking in, policing their sexuality. I'm just kind of calling that culture out, those expectations out in the church for what they are. That is just toxic to growing. Like John said, like that could have been so much better, such a healthier marriage and just kind of like quite literally like the, the breaking that caused so much devastation in your life. And again, yeah, like that makes me really sad and upset that that culture is just so prominent.

McKay Johnson [02:06:55] Oh, me too. Because as I said, I've seen it with a lot of other people and friends. So. Yeah, I hope that people hearing this will, I mean, know that they're not alone in those experiences and that change can come however long it may take. You know, we just have to keep cracking away at it. Right. So again, thank you guys for having me and you both offered a lot of really good insights, I think. And yes, Carah, you do a fabulous job interviewing, doing so. It's been great.

Carah Burrell [02:07:22] I'm like now that when people compliment me like that and I was like, okay, I gotta not screw it up or anymore.

McKay Johnson [02:07:28] Oh, and let me just add a plug. Support. Support these guys. Everyone donate to Open Stories Foundation.

Carah Burrell [02:07:36] That'd be so great.

McKay Johnson [02:07:37] I got your back. I got you back.

Carah Burrell [02:07:39] You know, what do we say at the end that we want to obviously thank all of our donors and, and John does this so much better than me. But John, you want me to do the, the wrap up? Okay, I'm doing it. We want to thank all of our donors to Mormon Stories. We cannot do any of this without our donors. We are completely 100 donor funded, which I think is incredible. That pays for John's salary. That we had enough. They had enough. I'm going to say we to be able to hire me on that were able to attack more issues, get on, get on the top of more stories, produce more content. We've been, John and I have been doing an extra live stream show that we just started weekly and that just frees us up to be able to contact more guests, get people in here more, tell more stories and we want to just completely give a huge shout out to our donors. And if you're not a Mormon Stories donor. No shade. But if you, you know, if you benefit from this programming, don't feel guilty that you're not paying, but if you have a little bit of extra cash. Cash. Covid was hard on all of us. Totally understandable. But if you have a little bit of extra cash, you can go to MormonStories.org, click the button at the top and you can become a one time donor or a monthly donor for $10 a month, $20 a month, $50. Hey, you could even go a little bit crazy. And whenever we do live streams, like, or this isn't technically a live stream, but whenever we do live streams or whenever the video premieres, you can even do super chats through YouTube and throw a little bit of cash that helps go to this entire production. Like I was saying, our salaries but also renting this space, paying for good equipment, paying for good sound, paying for hosting, that has to go to all of this stuff. So none of this would happen without our donors. And then we also have, like I was saying earlier about a Thrive event that's coming up and if you don't know what Thrive is, Thrive is a fabulous kind of, I would call it a non profit prophet for John. What's the best way to describe thrive? I don't want to mess it up because it's so important.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] No, it's, it's, yeah, it's just our attempt to provide communities of support for people who have left Mormonism or other high demand religions. And so we're just, we're trying to put little face to face communities together, hold annual events or workshops or retreats just to give people what they need to heal and grow and to build a new life once they're their Mormon and or orthodox religious life has fallen apart.

Carah Burrell [02:10:00] That's all I aspire to. Articulate it that well next time that Thrive is incredible. We just did a Thrive day for women a couple weeks ago that I hosted and it was this incredible event that 800 women came out to. So we're doing one even bigger and better. 2000 people hopefully will be in the Salt Palace. We have Sarah Edmondson from the Vow on hbo and she was also in the. What was it called again? The Nexium.

John Dehlin [02:10:30] Nexium Cult.

Carah Burrell [02:10:30] NXIVM Cult. So she's kind of like the big keynote speaker as well as Lance Armstrong.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] All red.

Carah Burrell [02:10:36] All red. Wow. We got it, Lance. Taking back your compliments already, gentlemen. I know. Oh gosh, Karen.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] The natural mistake.

Carah Burrell [02:10:48] I know. Especially actually it's the end of the day. I'm so sorry everyone. Lance Allred, who has been on Mormon Stories before, has a lot of incredible things to say. He's like a professional public speaker at this point. Right. Like he talks about. What's the name of his book?

John Dehlin [02:11:02] The Redefining the new alpha.

Carah Burrell [02:11:05] New alpha male.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:11:06] Yeah. So Lance Allred is coming to speak. We have Alan and Katie Mount from marriage on a tightrope podcast. Bill Real rfm, Latter Day lesbians podcast. Me with a bunch of other tick tock people that I mentioned earlier. McKay is going to be there. Just like, what, handing out high fives and hugs hopefully.

McKay Johnson [02:11:26] Yeah, I emailed them about getting a booth, but.

Carah Burrell [02:11:30] So email them. Just give me a call.

McKay Johnson [02:11:32] I'll.

Carah Burrell [02:11:32] I'll hook you up.

McKay Johnson [02:11:33] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:11:35] And John, who else am I forgetting?

John Dehlin [02:11:36] Oh, that's great. That's great.

Carah Burrell [02:11:38] Yeah, I hope I didn't leave anyone else off the list. List? Is that the entire list?

John Dehlin [02:11:42] No, there's others, but.

Carah Burrell [02:11:42] There's others, but. All right, check it out.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] Thrivebeyondreligion.com you can see the whole full group. It's only Luna, Luna Corbden.

Carah Burrell [02:11:49] Luna, Lindsay corbin. Thrive beyond religion.com 25. And it's going to be an incredible day. November 14th at the Salt Palace. And that's the entire post show wrap up. Again, thank you McKay. Thanks, John, for riding sidecar. And if you have any constructive criticism comments, please email us@mormonstories.org and thank you, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:12:10] Stories gmail.com. that's good.

Carah Burrell [02:12:14] Good. She's doing it. I'm like rushing.

John Dehlin [02:12:16] She's rocking it.

Carah Burrell [02:12:18] I'm not thinking. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [02:12:19] That's good.

Carah Burrell [02:12:19] All right, well, all right. MormonStories Gmail.com.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] you got it.

Carah Burrell [02:12:25] Oh, I need to go sleep for like five hours after this. All right, thank you everyone for watching and tune in for another episode. Next time on Mormon Stories, I've been your host, Carah Burrell. Thanks, John. Thanks, McKay. Thanks audience for tuning in. Bye, everybody.

McKay Johnson [02:12:39] Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.