Introduction and Mike's Church Background

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host John Dehlink. The date is again August 8th. This is my second interview for Monday, August 8th, 2016. This is an ongoing Mormon Stories podcast series about serving a mission in the 2010s in the LDS Church. It's focusing, at least initially, on experiencing a faith crisis while on a mission, early mission return and those sort of issues. The use of technology and how the Church's increased candor in the 2000 and tens may or may not affect missionary service. We've had two interviews so far and now I'm very excited for our third interview. It's with a gentleman by the name of Mike Woodruff. Mike is joining us from South Jordan, Utah and just a bit about Mike to help you understand what you're about to listen to. Mike served in the Leeds, England mission for about three months in 2013, so about three years ago. Some of the elements that are interesting about his story, number one is he he was attracted to men prior to his mission. He knew that. So we're going to talk about that and how that affected his decision to go on a mission and what it was like for him to be on a mission while attracted to men. As a Mormon we going to talk about some abuse he experienced at the hand of a companion on the mission which led to some post Traumatic Stress disorder or PTSD on the mission. We're going to talk about how that maybe contributed to a faith crisis that he had on his mission and his early return because he only served for three months on the mission. So really heavy and kind of sensitive topics. So Mike, we're very just very grateful to have you joining us not just in audio but also in video which we'll over YouTube. So thanks for joining us Mike.

Mike Woodruff [00:02:55] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] All right, so give us just a minute about your church life before going on a mission.

Mike Woodruff [00:03:04] Before going on your mission, I was your stereotypical Nazi Mormon. I was very judgmental of others, and I was perfect. And no one could shake my faith in God. And I was your stereotypical Utah Mormon. I was greater than everyone else, and my relationship with God made me greater than everyone else.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Okay, that sounds heavy. So did you do the seminary thing? You know, release time? Seminary?

Mike Woodruff [00:03:34] Yes. I got straight A's, and I was a straight A perfect student as well. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] So, like, valedictorian of your high school?

Mike Woodruff [00:03:42] I was Sterling Scholar for fine arts for the state of Utah for my region.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Okay, cool. That's. That's a huge honor. That's super competitive. And you were in a competitive region. So your fine arts were in what. What type of art?

Mike Woodruff [00:03:58] Theater.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Okay, so you're. You've been interested in theater, like singing, singing, dancing kind of stuff?

Mike Woodruff [00:04:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] What were some of the roles you were in in high school?

Mike Woodruff [00:04:08] In high school, for Beauty and the Beast, I played Gaston's not like LeFou, but the insane Asylum guy.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:04:17] I was also. Most of my roles were background, but, you know, I. I knew how to harmonize really well, so that really worked out for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Some of the other musicals. You. What else? Just for fun,

Mike Woodruff [00:04:33] I did Brigadoon, the Pajama Game. I did a lot of Shakespearean plays. I did a Neil Simon play, Fools. That was really fun too. And then I actually wrote and performed my own monologues for region and got

John Dehlin [00:04:48] second in, like, speech and drama competitions. In high school?

Mike Woodruff [00:04:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Okay. How many in your family? How many kids?

Mike Woodruff [00:04:58] I have three brothers, four sisters.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] And where are you in the order?

Mike Woodruff [00:05:02] I'm number five of eight.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] And what about in the order of brothers?

Mike Woodruff [00:05:08] I am the second brother.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Okay. Okay, cool. And so devout parents growing up in

Mike Woodruff [00:05:14] the church, very devout parents. They were raised to think that if we weren't in the church, that we were failures and they were failures for not having us in it. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Okay. Okay. So really intense Mormon upbringing. Sterling Scholar, regional finalist or winner in the theater and drama. Okay, so talk a bit about, just real briefly, about when you first started experiencing same sex attraction, I'll call it, or being attracted to men. And then how that played into your decision of whether or not to go on a mission.

Mike Woodruff [00:05:53] I've always been attracted to men, but it really came to my attention when I was 14, when I, you know, was going through some changes and noticed I was really attracted to men. And because of the. For strength of youth, basically it says to contact your bishop when you feel this way. So I did. And basically it said, oh, just don't worry. It's not even real. Basically you just need to keep praying and read your scriptures and keep being strong in the faith and you'll be fine. So that was basically what I went on my mission with.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Did you try dating women in high school?

Mike Woodruff [00:06:29] I did. I wasn't really interested. Didn't even try to kiss anyone or dates like all my other guy friends seemed to want to, but. So I just went on a few dances. But besides that, I never really got my heart into dating or anything.

Navigating Sexuality and Depression Before the Mission

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Did you ever, if you're comfortable sharing, you don't have to answer this, but did you ever try and date men or have any romantic relationships with men?

Mike Woodruff [00:06:55] Not at that time. I have since. No.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] I mean, prior to your mission.

Mike Woodruff [00:07:00] Prior to my mission? No. I wouldn't even attempt because something like that would be sinful.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Okay. And you. So you did. Did you identify as gay, you know, as you're applying to your mission?

Mike Woodruff [00:07:14] I just applied myself as same sex attracted. I listed it as something I was versing, but I was doing really well with.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] So you put that on your missionary application. Were you tempted to leave that off?

Mike Woodruff [00:07:30] It was definitely an intense decision, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] But your bishop knew because you had gone to him.

Mike Woodruff [00:07:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] So you couldn't have hit it from your bishop.

Mike Woodruff [00:07:40] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] So you had to be honest.

Mike Woodruff [00:07:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Okay, so you put that on there. You, your bishop knew, but the line that you used, which sounds like it was true, was that it was all under control, that there was no problem. And in your mind, you didn't identify as gay. You just said, I have these feelings. But you'd have been led to think that if you go on a mission, it'll all get fixed.

Mike Woodruff [00:08:02] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Okay. So any other things we should know about your application to the mission before you actually went?

Mike Woodruff [00:08:09] I also said that I had. I was prone to depression and that I had taken prescriptions in the past for it.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Okay, so severe depression just kind of. How would you describe your depression before your mission?

Mike Woodruff [00:08:23] We thought it was like a teenage phase because it got really bad back at the time of puberty, but then it seemed to die off, so we thought maybe it was just a hormonal thing. So we didn't really think it was that bad.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Okay. And, um, you know, lots of people have depression with no religion involved or without sexuality. Sometimes it can be biological. Maybe it's often biological, or there's always a biological component. I just want to make that clear. Having said that, as you look back, do you associate your depression with anything regarding religion or your sexuality?

Mike Woodruff [00:08:59] Later, it would cause a lot of problems. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] But as you think back to your depression in high school, do you associate the depression in high school with your faith or your suppression of your sexuality, etc.

Mike Woodruff [00:09:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:09:16] It was.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] I had to appear perfect, so perfectionism.

Mike Woodruff [00:09:20] Yeah. And part of that is ignoring your sexuality if you're same sex attracted.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] And looking back, as you think about it, if I had been able to not feel this drive to be perfect all the time and maybe explore dating guys, you think you may have felt differently?

Mike Woodruff [00:09:40] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Okay, well, we're just speculating, but I mean, it's. I think you're, you know, you better probably than any of us, so. Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:09:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Okay. So you, You. You go into the mission with the history of depression and attracted to men. Anything else about your process that was a problem or, you know, an issue?

Mike Woodruff [00:10:00] Not really. In my patriarchal blessing, it said that I'd be fine, so I didn't try to worry about it too much.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] You'd be fine with what?

Mike Woodruff [00:10:08] On my mission, I'd serve honorably and full time and everything would work out and I wouldn't miss my family like other missionaries would.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] It says that in your patriarchal blessing?

Mike Woodruff [00:10:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Wow, that adds a little bit. You're not allowed to miss your family now.

Mike Woodruff [00:10:23] Okay, well, it made. That's part of the reason why it lasted three months instead of one was because of that line that said, well, you'll serve a full time mission. You'll be fine.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that sets you up. Okay, so. So you go to the MTC here in the States?

MTC Experience and Abuse on the Mission

Mike Woodruff [00:10:38] I went to the MTC in. I think it's Rockwell. It's England.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] Okay, so you went to a British mtc?

Mike Woodruff [00:10:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Okay, and when did things. Was it awesome at first? When did things start getting hard? Like, tell us about what the mission

Mike Woodruff [00:10:57] started to be like for you at the mtc. It was a little different because I wasn't even in Utah anymore. I was far away from home, and it was very different for me. So it was just adjusting to that change so quickly that kind of threw me off. And I was really stressed out at first, but by the time I left the mtc, I felt confident and ready to be on my own. And it was after a period of, I think it was 10 days that I went to my area and got introduced to my trainer, and that was when things really started going downhill.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Okay, so you're. But your MTC experience was three weeks. Was it two weeks? Three weeks?

Mike Woodruff [00:11:37] Two to three weeks. I can't remember how Long. It kind of blurred together and it was hard, but.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] But it was okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:11:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Okay. So you get your trainer and what can you tell us about that?

Mike Woodruff [00:11:48] My mission president said that he prayed and got revelation directly so that I would have that trainer and that I would learn a lot from him. What he didn't know was what I would learn from him.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] But was he from the States or from the uk?

Mike Woodruff [00:12:03] He's from Arizona.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] Okay. Stateside. So you had been set up to think that God had chosen this companion specifically for you. How did it not turn out so well?

Mike Woodruff [00:12:16] He physically and emotionally abused me. I endured it for three weeks and didn't tell or report to anyone because I thought the Lord wanted me to stay with him.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] So you're. You go through two or three weeks of pretty intense abuse and you've. You've said to me pre interview, you don't want to get into the abuse, so we won't. We're going to leave it at that. But maybe I'll just ask you, what was that like for you to be experiencing abuse at the hand of your trainer when you thought that God had sent that trainer to you?

Mike Woodruff [00:12:55] It was definitely disconcerting. There would be a lot of mornings I'd wake up and wish I were dead instead of dealing with him for another day. There also came a point where I asked the Lord what I needed to learn a lesson in because apparently I must be doing something wrong and able for my companion to treat me this way.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] So you turned it back on you. The problem must have been you.

Mike Woodruff [00:13:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] Okay. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. So. So you endure that for three weeks and then what happens?

Mike Woodruff [00:13:38] I was in a flat. That's what they call apartments there, with another missionary set, I guess. And he was a district leader and he started noticing that I started being withdrawn and started noticing weird things. So he reported it to the mission president.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] And was the abuse always in private so that no one else would see it?

Mike Woodruff [00:14:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Okay. So no one would have known except by noticing your behavior. So I guess kudos to that district leader for noticing, Right?

Mike Woodruff [00:14:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Okay. So he reports that he's. Something's not right. Right. Okay. And then what happened?

Mike Woodruff [00:14:26] And then what the companion did came to light because I then told the mission president what's been going on because now that he asked me to. To tell him, that's when I told him what was going on. And it was at that point that he said, you really should be going home. And I said, no, I can't. I have to Serve full time.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] He wanted to send you home at that point?

Mike Woodruff [00:14:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Why was that his reaction versus let's get rid of this bad missionary and get you a good companion again?

Mike Woodruff [00:15:02] Well, the missionary needed to keep serving his mission too.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] But then why not just separate you and give you a different companion? Were you at a point that was so severe that he felt like you couldn't continue as a healthy missionary?

Mike Woodruff [00:15:17] I didn't have the same companion after that point. He wanted to send me home and have the other missionary get trained again so that he could know to not do what he did. But basically what ended up was instead of me going home, I said, I'll try a different companion. Maybe it'll get better.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] I'm just wondering why his reaction was to send you home at all if you hadn't done anything.

Mike Woodruff [00:15:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] But you did you wonder that I

Mike Woodruff [00:15:50] didn't understand his process.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] You didn't want to go, you didn't want to go home?

Mike Woodruff [00:15:54] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] But he wanted to send you home.

Mike Woodruff [00:15:59] But my patriarchal blessing said I'd be there full time and serve a full time honorable mission.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Okay, so you said, I'm not going home. I'm going to stick this out.

Mike Woodruff [00:16:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Okay, so you get a new companion. Then what happens?

Mike Woodruff [00:16:11] I didn't get better.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Meaning what? Meaning what?

Mike Woodruff [00:16:15] I started having nightmares at night even though I wasn't in danger anymore.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] So that's a typical PTSD symptom is re experiencing the trauma either at night or during the day. Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:16:32] It got to the point where I could hardly walk less. I could hardly walk even a mile anymore because of how intense everything felt.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Did he offer you a therapist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist?

Mike Woodruff [00:16:50] I got a therapist and I could only do phone appointments with him because he was in Germany.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] Was there a limit to how many you were allowed to have?

Mike Woodruff [00:17:01] It was like once a week with one. And then they kept trying to get me to go to the doctor because they thought it was depression and anxiety.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] So they wanted to have you go to a doctor to medicate it.

Mike Woodruff [00:17:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] How was the. The German therapist? It was nice in Germany.

PTSD, Early Return, and Coming Home

Mike Woodruff [00:17:21] It was nice to talk to him, but really it was really confusing because we couldn't see each other face to face.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] It was just phone. It was just phone?

Mike Woodruff [00:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:17:32] It made it really hard to feel like I could actually get real help.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] How many, how many of those calls did you did? Just over phone? Did you do over phone?

Mike Woodruff [00:17:43] I did three before I said, you know what? It's not doing anything for me.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] So they weren't. Did you feel like the. Was it a psychologist? Lcsw. Do you know what the credentials were of the person you were talking to?

Mike Woodruff [00:17:58] No, but they were a. That was. Their mission in England, in Germany, was to be a counselor, so I'm guessing they were credentialed.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Okay, so it was some. It was someone from America who was a service mission in Germany to be a counselor.

Mike Woodruff [00:18:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Okay. And I wonder, did they tell you they were operating under a license in Germany? Because you have to. I'm guessing you have to be licensed to practice psychology or therapy.

Mike Woodruff [00:18:29] I honestly have no idea. It was like Family Services.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] LDS Family Services.

Mike Woodruff [00:18:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Okay. Okay. So did you feel like those three, they were competent? Was it just the fact that it was all audio that made it hard, or were you confident in the competence of that therapist?

Mike Woodruff [00:18:50] Basically, it was just, like, reiterating spiritual stuff. It wasn't. It hardly even felt like real counseling.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] So what types of things were said to you?

Mike Woodruff [00:19:00] How often are you reading your scriptures? Are you praying enough? And it basically made me feel like I was guilty for everything my companion did to me because they told me I wasn't doing enough spiritually.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] That makes me really sad. So there was no sort of empirically supported PTSD treatment that you were experiencing? No, it was more. Pray, read your scriptures, etc.

Mike Woodruff [00:19:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] And that made you feel like you were being sort of blamed. It was your. It was your fault for not for the. For the PTSD symptoms you were experiencing.

Mike Woodruff [00:19:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Okay. I'm so sorry. So three weeks, you ended that. Then what happened

Mike Woodruff [00:19:43] after that point? I had the second companion for three weeks before I said, you know what? This is too much. But I still can't go home yet. Can I try working in the mission office?

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Was the new companion bad? Was he abusive?

Mike Woodruff [00:20:04] No, he was. He was the perfect companion. He. Instead of being angry about what was happening with me, he tried to. He was just trying to listen and trying to understand. He wasn't judging. He was just trying to figure out what was going on.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Okay, so it wasn't a companion problem. What was the problem? I could guess, but I'm just gonna ask.

Mike Woodruff [00:20:29] It was probably just the lack of therapeutic treatment, so.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] So the ongoing PTSD symptoms that were not being addressed.

Mike Woodruff [00:20:39] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Okay. So you asked to go to the office. Then what happened?

Mike Woodruff [00:20:44] I worked there for a few more weeks before I felt I needed to go back to an area to my previous area.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] So you started to get better? You started to feel better?

Mike Woodruff [00:20:54] Temporarily. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Okay. All right.

Mike Woodruff [00:20:57] And it was after that point, I spent one more week in Bridlington where I solved a couple of problems between my companions because I just. There were two in particular that were having troubles, and my mission president felt that I was well enough that I could go back there and try to help both of them. And in the end, I did help them both out. But then after that point, the symptoms came back again. And finally, in one of my prayers, I felt that it was okay to go home.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] So by rejoining sort of the context that you experienced the abuse, the PTSD symptoms returned, and you just realized you weren't going to get better? Was any other. After you discontinued the first therapist. Did you say there was a second therapist?

Mike Woodruff [00:21:50] No, it was just the first therapist for three times, and he was the only one available.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Okay. And then they tried to get you to get medication. Why? Did that work? Did it not work? What happened there?

Mike Woodruff [00:22:03] I think it started to work.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] But you went to a doctor and got meds?

Mike Woodruff [00:22:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] Was it a competent doctor?

Mike Woodruff [00:22:12] Yes, they were competent.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Okay. And you were prescribed some, what, ssri. Some type of.

Mike Woodruff [00:22:18] Yeah, it was an anti cyclic, which kind of does both SSRI and snri.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Okay, and how was that? I mean, it takes a while for

Mike Woodruff [00:22:28] that to kick in, but because I was currently going to the mission home instead of the actual mission, when I was taking it, I felt a whole lot better. So when I went back to the other area, I thought I'd be fine.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay, so the meds. You felt like the meds were helping, even though sometimes there's a placebo effect. And. And we know that there's a delay in that stuff kicking in, but for you, it felt better. But then at some point it just fell apart, and you prayed and felt like you needed to go home. How did your mission president deal with you telling him that you needed to go home, that you felt God's support in you going home?

Mike Woodruff [00:23:08] Well, actually, he was the one asking me to please consider praying about going home because you don't seem like you're doing well.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Okay, so he sounds like he sensed from the beginning this just wasn't going to work out for you.

Mike Woodruff [00:23:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] But you were resisting it because of your patriarchal blessing and your perfectionism and your determination to make it work. So I'm. So I'm guessing when you told him you needed to go home, sounds like

Mike Woodruff [00:23:32] he was gung ho.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Okay. Okay. And was that okay? Did that feel okay to you, to get that support?

Mike Woodruff [00:23:39] I felt okay with him, but the second, like, I'd stop talking to him, the feelings of guilt and inferiority were quite intense.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Okay. Okay, so before we talk about you going home, did your feelings of same of being attracted to men play into any of this time or.

Mike Woodruff [00:24:00] Yes. How did they play in with the companion? That was perfect. I was also housed with the zone leaders. One of the zone leaders, every morning like to work out naked. And I didn't feel comfortable with that. And so I outright told them, look,

John Dehlin [00:24:18] I'm no clothes on at all.

Mike Woodruff [00:24:20] None. And he was a previous football player,

John Dehlin [00:24:24] so he was ripped and he's worked like push ups naked with his penis hanging out. Like. Yep, that's. I'd never heard of that before.

Mike Woodruff [00:24:36] I didn't feel comfortable with it.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:24:39] At the time because I was in missionary mode.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] Shouldn't missionaries always be clothed? Like, were the other missionaries okay with that?

Mike Woodruff [00:24:47] Well, they were the zone leader. No one really talks against them.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Okay. All right. So you told them you were attracted to men.

Mike Woodruff [00:24:58] And I said that I wasn't okay with it. And they said, well, I'm still gonna keep working out, so you. I'll just give you permission as a zone leader to keep sleeping in.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:25:08] So that you don't even have to see me working out.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] And he wouldn't just put clothes on?

Mike Woodruff [00:25:12] No.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Okay, that sounds really weird.

Mike Woodruff [00:25:15] Yeah, it was awkward.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Okay. And so that any other areas where the same, you know, being attracted to

Mike Woodruff [00:25:25] men came into play, that was the time that I started questioning. Because before then I could always just go out and tract or whatever and distract and whatever so that I could push off the question until later. But in the second part of my mission, I couldn't move. So I was basically stuck at the flat all day. And that was when a lot of my gospel doubts started showing up.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Okay, and what were those? Like?

Mike Woodruff [00:25:55] It didn't make sense that the Lord wanted me to be with someone so abusive as a companion. It also didn't make sense how so many people that could, you know, be in a high position of the church could be so. Could make so many sins. Like, you know, with the garments, you're basically supposed to keep them on. But he was choosing outright to go against that. And it just. The black and white thinking, perfectionism I always had of the church started breaking apart on my mission. And the question of, well, are you ever going to be able to marry a woman in the temple? Came up. And I honestly had no answer for it.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Okay, so things going wrong, leaders disappointing you, then thoughts about being attracted to men and what that meant for your future just started chipping away at your testimony.

Mike Woodruff [00:26:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Okay. Um. Did you ever talk to people about that, or did you kind of keep that to yourself?

Mike Woodruff [00:26:59] I told the mission president, but he told me that the whole purpose of life is to get a testimony. And just because you don't have a perfect one doesn't mean you have to go home from a mission for it.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] Okay, so he didn't want you going home for that reason.

Mike Woodruff [00:27:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] Okay. And he sounds like he didn't make you feel awful for your doubts either.

Mike Woodruff [00:27:17] Nope. He was. He was the perfect mission president, all things considered.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Wow. Okay. So you're very happy with your mission president, not so happy with your first companion or your zone leader.

Mike Woodruff [00:27:29] Nope. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] All right. Anything else we need to know about your actual mission before going home, or did we cover the main points?

Mike Woodruff [00:27:38] Those were the main points. There's just everything. Going home that was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] What do you mean?

Mike Woodruff [00:27:46] A lot of things happened once I came home.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Okay, so you come home. Are you received at the airport?

Mike Woodruff [00:27:53] I was. By just family. I felt kind of ashamed that I had to go home early, so I told my parents not to invite anyone else.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Because you felt shamed?

Mike Woodruff [00:28:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] What was that like when your family was there at the airport?

Mike Woodruff [00:28:07] The first thought I had when I saw them was, this is proof that I'm not worthy and I'm not good enough because. Because I didn't do the whole mission.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] So seeing your family just reinforced your feelings of shame and worthlessness?

Mike Woodruff [00:28:26] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Okay. I'm sorry. What happened after that?

Mike Woodruff [00:28:30] I started seeing counselors in family services, which basically was not helpful either. And I went counselor hopping for a

John Dehlin [00:28:40] while to try and treat the ptsd.

Mike Woodruff [00:28:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:28:45] And finally, what?

John Dehlin [00:28:48] What were the ones who weren't doing it right doing wrong? What were they doing wrong?

Mike Woodruff [00:28:52] Basically they tried to say that if I prayed enough and read the scriptures enough, that everything would just be taken away.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Okay. Same. So the same as the previous. And that's the challenge with LDS Social Services is LDS Family Services. You. There may be some competent ones in there, but there's so many that mix religion and what's supposed to be therapy in ways that aren't empirically supported. And so instead of getting the best sort of empirically supported treatment for ptsd, and there are treatments recommended or endorsed by the apa has been shown empirically efficacious across multiple double blind, you know, peer reviewed kind of studies, you're getting people who are mixing religion and folklore with what's supposed to be therapy, and you're not getting the help you need.

Mike Woodruff [00:29:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] You ultimately found one that was good. Were they with LDS Family services.

Mike Woodruff [00:29:50] No, but they were Mormon. But they were. They weren't like Nazi Mormon like Utah's. Utahns tend to be. They were like, I can see how religion can be helpful, but I don't try to incorporate it into what I try to help people with.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Yeah. Okay. And what treatment did he offer? She. Yeah, she.

Mike Woodruff [00:30:10] She did a lot of trauma counseling.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:30:13] Is basically just facing my traumas and getting to a point where I felt confident and wasn't triggered anymore.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Yeah, yeah. And there are really solid trauma treatments. And that's one of the things. One of the things you learn in, you know, school, grad school, is that people specialize in different areas, and there's going to be no one who's an expert in eating disorders and trauma and depression and OCD and sexuality. And so you go to a specialist, but when the mission has someone who's just a generalist supposing to help everyone across the mission, they're not going to be necessarily competent in all the issues that they would need to treat. And that's another problem with how I think mental health services are with missionaries. It sounds like.

Mike Woodruff [00:31:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Okay. So how long were you with this. With this competent therapist?

Mike Woodruff [00:31:07] I'm still with her. I'm to the point where I no longer have any nightmares or traumas. But about a year after I saw her two years ago, I still attempted suicide because of being gay and Mormon didn't mix. And it got to the point where I didn't feel worthwhile as a human being. And it got to the point where I figured, well, no one's going to miss me anyways because I was gay.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] So she helped with the ptsd, but then you had to deal with the challenge of being gay and Mormon.

Mike Woodruff [00:31:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] And it led you to be suicidal.

Mike Woodruff [00:31:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Okay. Before we leave the mission stuff, how were you treated by your bishop, by your stake president, and by your ward and by your family for coming home early?

Community Reception and Faith Transition After Returning

Mike Woodruff [00:32:09] For coming home early. My bishops were. And everyone were really supportive. The thing I didn't like about my ward was they all asked me why I was home early, and it made me feel more guilt and shame.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] What did you tell them?

Mike Woodruff [00:32:26] I got sick.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Yeah. And that's the answer. Right. I got sick. And you weren't. You did you. Did you. Did you consider saying I had an abusive companion who physically and emotionally abused me?

Mike Woodruff [00:32:40] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] This may be obvious, but I just. Do you want to share why you weren't comfortable giving more details?

Mike Woodruff [00:32:48] I was uncomfortable because I blamed myself for his abuse.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] So you saw it as You. And did that missionary ever get sent home that you know of? Huh?

Mike Woodruff [00:33:04] No. He actually ended up working with another companion. And when at the time I went home, I found out he was training another missionary.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] So as far as you know, he finished his mission honorably?

Mike Woodruff [00:33:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] And there was no consequence you're aware of, other than being retrained?

Mike Woodruff [00:33:26] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Okay. How did that feel?

Mike Woodruff [00:33:30] It validated my feelings that it was my fault and not his.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] Okay, I'm so sorry. So people asking you why your home early was bad. What else? Anything else was hard about your leaders or your family or the ward or friends.

Mike Woodruff [00:33:51] It got a lot worse when I started actually full on questioning my same sex attraction. And it got to the point where I was like, you know what? I'm gay, but I don't know what to do with it. And it was at that point that my bishops were like, well, now you can't have a temple recommend and now you can't take the sacrament and you're not worthy anymore.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Was that because you were starting to experiment with being gay, with relationships with other men, or just because you're having the feelings?

Mike Woodruff [00:34:22] The feelings.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Okay, so you were just having the feelings and they took your temple recommend away for having the feelings?

Mike Woodruff [00:34:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Now, as I understood it, the church had the position now that it's not a sin to have those feelings. It's only a sin if you act on them.

Mike Woodruff [00:34:41] Right. That's not what happened with me with the way my bishop interpreted things.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] So he takes away your ability to go to the temple just for saying you're having the feelings?

Mike Woodruff [00:34:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] They're not going away. How did. What did that. What was that like in your relationship with God as you're struggling with these feelings and the bishop's involved and you're trying to figure it all out, instead

Mike Woodruff [00:35:11] of God being like a counselor and someone that cared for me, he became my jailer and basically the devil. I didn't feel like I was loved. I didn't feel like I was worthy of love because I was gay. I didn't feel worthwhile as a person.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] Did you ask God to help you to try and take it away from you?

Mike Woodruff [00:35:39] Several times.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] What was that like?

Mike Woodruff [00:35:44] I just felt more suicidal, so I kind of felt like he just wanted me to kill myself.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] What were the ways you tried to change?

Mike Woodruff [00:35:59] Lots of prayer, lots of scripture study, lots of research on things against homosexuality and about it being a choice rather than a something you're born with. A lot of basically online conversion therapy.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Where was that coming from?

Mike Woodruff [00:36:20] They were from sources from people that were LDS counselors. I just searched them on Google.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] How much were you paying for the online conversion therapy?

Mike Woodruff [00:36:34] It didn't cost anything. I was just reading articles.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Oh, okay, you're reading articles. And. And these were links provided by your LDS family services therapists, is that right?

Mike Woodruff [00:36:50] Basically, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] Were there any support groups? What are some of the wet. Are the websites things we would be familiar with?

Mike Woodruff [00:36:59] North Star. That was the first one.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] So you got connected to North Star?

Mike Woodruff [00:37:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] And what was that like?

Mike Woodruff [00:37:08] I felt like it was a competition to see who could be the most righteous whenever I went on there and I would get support, but it was like pious support. Like, look at how good I'm doing. So now you can learn from my example because I'm perfect.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Was this a Facebook group?

Mike Woodruff [00:37:31] It was meant to be a support group, but there were so many rules in place because we had to. We couldn't talk about sex when really that was the problem. That got to the point where it didn't even feel good going there because it felt dangerous as an environment.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] The Facebook group, you mean?

Mike Woodruff [00:37:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] Did you go to any face to face meetings with Northstar people after the

Mike Woodruff [00:37:53] way the Facebook group was? I didn't want to.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Okay, is this something. Was Ty Mansfield involved in all this? Was what Ty Mansfield, was he involved in all this? The leader of North Star? Is that a name that even means anything to you?

Mike Woodruff [00:38:10] It sounds familiar,

John Dehlin [00:38:13] but he wasn't a prominent person in your questions and seeking help?

Mike Woodruff [00:38:21] Not yet. Or at least I ain't notice.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Okay. Okay. So how long did you try and go to Northstar and get support there?

Mike Woodruff [00:38:31] A few months before I left and found affirmation instead.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] Okay, and then you went to Affirmation. Did you. What other. Any other resources? Did you look at the book Voices of Hope that Deseret book sells?

Mike Woodruff [00:38:47] I heard about it, but thankfully, by the time I heard about it, I was an affirmation and heard from a lot of people that it only made them feel guilt instead of healing.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Okay. Okay. So was North Star the main source of trying to change or, you know, suppress your sexuality or whatever?

Mike Woodruff [00:39:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Okay. So affirmation, what was that like for you?

Mike Woodruff [00:39:14] It was a lot different because I did the group that basically affirmation journeys, where it isn't like trying to make you leave the church, but it's like being more open so that if you wanted to discuss things like that, they would be honest and say how they felt since they left or how other members have felt since they, you know, don't associate with the church, but still follow the precepts that she teaches.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Okay. And that felt what to you?

Mike Woodruff [00:39:47] It felt helpful. It got to a point where I felt a different connection with God than I had before. And it didn't even necessarily had to be connected with the Mormon church. I just felt that God loved me and that the feelings of God not loving me is the result of religion. And it isn't true because God loves no matter what. And if you're in a religion where God makes you feel unloved, it's not God.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] So affirmation helped give you the freedom to reconsider what God was for you. And for you, God has to be accepting, not rejecting of who you are.

Mike Woodruff [00:40:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Okay. And that was. Was that an important part of your healing?

Mike Woodruff [00:40:39] Yes. It started getting me to the point where I started realizing that the companion abusing me was not my fault.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Now I'm starting to wonder if for you, there was a parallel between an abusive companion and sort of an abusive God slash church in your mind. I'm not saying the church was abusive necessarily, but I'm. I can't help but think you would sort of end up drawing a connection between the abusive companion and a church and a God that you probably experienced as abusive.

Mike Woodruff [00:41:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Was that an important connection for you to make?

Mike Woodruff [00:41:23] Yeah. Once I started feeling that way, I started healing. And since realizing that I haven't been suicidal. And it's been very helpful to make those connections and realize that, you know, you don't have to be part of a church and able to experience God's love and help and support for his children. And that after I learned about what the church did in Prop 8, I left the church at that point, took my own name out. And then that it wasn't soon after that that the new policy came out. And it only proved to me what I already found out was that the church isn't really true. For me, at least,

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Powerful. So, okay, so that. And now. Now you're saying that your. Your feelings of suicidality, what, they're gone? They're gone. And the PTSD symptoms that you were

Mike Woodruff [00:42:35] suffering from, I still get triggered every now and then, but I know how to deal with it, and I don't shame myself for it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Okay. And the depression and that kind of stuff that was having a grip on

Mike Woodruff [00:42:47] you before, I still. It's a lifelong struggle. I honestly. It usually comes up in your 20s, is usually the age it comes out, and it is something you have to deal with. Lifelong. But I'm still capable, and I Am currently going to the U of U to get a degree in social work and I am managing it.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Congratulations.

Mike Woodruff [00:43:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] That's exciting. Okay, so I guess. I guess to kind of ask some of these closing questions and you, you, you can tell me. Is there anything else about your mission that you would want to tell me or your experience or do you feel like we've pretty much covered the. The main points of your experience?

Mike Woodruff [00:43:39] We covered the main points.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Okay, so. So now we can jump to kind of the. The closing questions I've been asking everyone. So was there anything. If you, if you were to give the. If you were to give the church suggestions about how to deal with someone in your situation, let's just say prior to the mission, is there anything that the church could do differently to deal with how you were up until the point where you actually left for your mission? Any feedback or suggestions?

Mike Woodruff [00:44:16] I just didn't like how helpless I felt to the same sex attraction thing. It just made. They just said push it off. It really doesn't matter. And really, it ended up being something that really does matter later on.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Okay. So don't downplay your attraction to men and making the missionary feel like everything's going to be fine.

Mike Woodruff [00:44:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] How about that patriarchal blessing?

Mike Woodruff [00:44:41] That patriarchal blessing, man, I just, I took it so literally and like, it was a fortune. I really kind of wish my patriarch wasn't that specific because it ended up hurting me so much more.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] How about the culture of perfectionism that you were swimming in prior to your mission?

Mike Woodruff [00:45:03] That would also. It doesn't do anyone any good. It doesn't make you more righteous. All it does is add more shaming to the church. And that's a devil tactic, not a God one.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Okay, so ramp down the perfectionism and the pressure. Ramp down the specificity and patriarchal blessings. Ramp up the education and concern about matters of sexuality.

Mike Woodruff [00:45:31] Yes.

Reflections on Sexuality, Trauma, and Advice for LGBT Missionaries

John Dehlin [00:45:31] For prospective missionaries, how about how everything. Your faith crisis, your sexuality, your trauma, your mental health services, what about how those were for you while you were on your mission? Any suggestions you have there?

Mike Woodruff [00:45:47] 1. If you have an abusive companion, he should go home. He shouldn't be on the mission anymore. That's enough for me to say. Not just a justice thing, but what about the other missionaries he was with? How many other people did he torment before finally going home? Because it was his two years? Because I know the mission is supposed to be a challenging time, but if you're allowing abusers to stay, stay there, no wonder it's going to be hard.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:46:16] And the other One is have the. The counselors actually do therapy. I mean, you shouldn't have to say that, but all they did was talk about how my relationship with God was. They did not do any therapy whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] So have competent therapists that provide empirically supported treatments that. That match the presenting concerns.

Mike Woodruff [00:46:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Okay. How about how your mission president dealt with it? The. You know, just you and going home and everything else. Any. Anything else about how your mission president dealt with it?

Mike Woodruff [00:46:56] I liked how he did it. He. Even though my feelings of shame kind of overrode everything, he did take the time to sit down with me and say, you are still worthwhile. It's okay that you had to go home. This was outside of your control. You just have to take care of yourself.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] Okay. Good job to the mission president for that. It sounds like you had a good companion or two as well.

Mike Woodruff [00:47:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] How about for APs that want to exercise naked? Any feedback there?

Mike Woodruff [00:47:24] Well, now that I'm gay, I'm kind of like. Well, but

John Dehlin [00:47:30] more of that.

Mike Woodruff [00:47:32] I'm kidding about that. Honestly, they. If they're gonna be a missionary, they can't do it halfway. They need to follow all the rules.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:47:41] It's. It makes it easier for all the other missionaries there.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] Okay. How about how your. Your leadership or your. The ward members or your family handled things with you coming home? Any feedback there?

Mike Woodruff [00:47:54] My family was really great. They kept supporting me and kept reminding me that I was awesome and that I've served honorably and the mission. How the ward could have done better is instead of coming up to me and asking me questions, to just come up to me and say, I am so glad you're back, and give me a hug. That's really the best thing you can do. It's just show support, not curiosity. I mean, we're all curious, but if you just wait until they heal and if they want to talk about it, they'll talk about it. But it really isn't in your place to know. All you need to do is show support.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] So just love them and be excited they're home.

Mike Woodruff [00:48:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] And don't ask a bunch of questions. Yep. Okay. Your ward leadership, stake leadership, did they handle things okay?

Mike Woodruff [00:48:43] I wish they wouldn't have put so much shame on me for having my feelings that I did and because ultimately it made me feel unloved and unsupported and like I didn't matter. And that led up to my suicide. Attempted suicide.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] So the messages about same sex sexuality were damaging to you?

Mike Woodruff [00:49:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] So that's a message to the broader Church. So what's your message to the church about its policies around same sex sexuality?

Mike Woodruff [00:49:20] I think as long as they're going to continue doing that, people are going to question rightfully about the church because that is something of the devil. We all make our decisions and we can all follow the precepts of our own conscience and worship God. How, where, what we may, and them doing that is putting a line in the ground that adds contention, which is something not of God. And I think people are going to keep questioning the church until, you know, things change.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Okay, so basically a 360 degree condemnation of the church's policies for LGBT people. Okay, so let's say there's a young gay man or lesbian woman or LGBT person who's considering a mission. What would you say to them?

Mike Woodruff [00:50:21] Honestly, it depends on their conviction. Because even though it ended up being a lot of confusion for me later, I did help a lot of people on my mission. And it wasn't even through spiritual. I did a lot of service, I did a lot of helping people. And that was part of what made me realize I wanted to be a social worker, was I got the opportunity to serve. So as long as they were okay with preaching the gospel as well and could deal with it for two years and just hold off the question until they came back, I think that would work. But if they really had a lot of doubts, I would question them. I would tell them to question it and find out the answers before they went. Because you can wait until you're 26 to go. You're not. There's no rush.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] And yeah, so going on the mission with a lot of uncertainty, you don't recommend because why?

Mike Woodruff [00:51:21] Because it makes your mission a whole lot harder when it gets to the point where you can't preach the religion anymore. And if you can't preach the religion, people are going to start shaming you for it because you're supposed to be a missionary. So if you wanted to do a service mission, that's also possible. You don't have to do a religious thing, but if you want to have the most out of your experience, you shouldn't have any big doubts before you go.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] And can you see. And just a question that comes to my mind is, I can see a missionary saying, nope, I'm good. I've put that sexuality behind me. I'm going to just. I'm 100% convinced. Does that mean that because they entered the mission convinced that the mission is going to be great for them too?

Mike Woodruff [00:52:07] Not necessarily. There are lots of struggles that come from being on a mission. That's the way I was when I went on my mission, and this is what happened to me. So honestly, there are some things you can only learn through experience.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Okay, okay. So it sounds like no matter what, it's. It. It. You're saying it's a really fraught thing to go on a mission if you're attracted to the same sex.

Mike Woodruff [00:52:38] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] But you're not. But you know, to your credit, you're not telling everyone not to do it. You're just saying, man, be super careful.

Mike Woodruff [00:52:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Okay, let's say there's someone on their mission who's either doubting or struggling with their sexuality or struggling with the church's policies about sexuality. What would you tell that missionary?

Mike Woodruff [00:53:06] Honestly, it depends on the person. If you go home unworthily, you have to pay for the plane trick at home. And that can be a way of trapping some missionaries into their missions. Now is they have to play the for the pay for the plane trick at home if it's unworthy. And honestly, I just tell them to follow what their heart says and if they feel they need to stay to focus on preaching on things that you agree with, like serving others. I still think that's a great thing, honesty, doing good to others and, you know, having good faith so that you aren't overly negative all the time. You know, things like that. If you can preach about things like that, then go for it. But if you honestly don't feel comfortable with giving a lesson on something, then you really shouldn't teach it.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] But our mission set up to where you can just not teach the lessons, but just teach about love and kindness. Is that how mission set up?

Mike Woodruff [00:54:13] Well, you have a companion, so just

John Dehlin [00:54:16] let the companion do the teaching.

Mike Woodruff [00:54:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Okay.

Mike Woodruff [00:54:18] And you'll probably get some flack for it. But if you have to stay, at least stay true to your true values.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] So don't sacrifice your core values.

Mike Woodruff [00:54:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Okay. What about someone who. What about just LGBT members of the church who are still believing or still possibly believing? What advice do you have to them?

Mike Woodruff [00:54:48] To know that God loves them no matter what, and to let them know that I, as their friend, would always be there and I am always. I have a lot of Mormon friends that are same sex attracted that I still help out. And I just make sure you have a friend that you can be honest to and can say everything to so you don't bottle up any feelings.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] And as it relates to kind of staying in the church or out of the church,

Mike Woodruff [00:55:20] they really need to follow their own path. For me, my path of finding my own personal. Personal freedom and happiness was leaving. But for some people, the church really does provide a comfort, and they need to keep that.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Okay, looking back, do you regret going on a mission?

Mike Woodruff [00:55:40] Yes and no. I regret that I didn't stand up for myself. I regret that I kind of let people walk all over me because of my patriarchal blessing, basically. And what I don't regret, though, is since this happened, I've gotten a lot better and have found a way of life that's a lot better for me and didn't have to end up with me lying to a girl in the temple and then getting divorced later because I was gay anyways.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] So you're glad. One positive result is that it's helped you come to accept yourself so you didn't have to make more possibly damaging decisions later.

Mike Woodruff [00:56:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Okay. Yeah. So far, everyone I've interviewed has said they still learned a lot of good things and they're not sure they would have not gone. Okay, well, great. Well, you know, Mike, this has been a super moving interview for me. I think you've been really thoughtful and fair and courageous, and I. I can't thank you enough for coming on. Would you mind sharing just your final testimony? And that doesn't mean a Mormon testimony. It doesn't even have to be religious. Just what is. What are some truths that you live by now or some perspectives of hope or whatever that you want to share with listeners?

Closing Thoughts and Final Reflections

Mike Woodruff [00:57:09] The biggest ones for me is that God loves everyone. He's like the great counselor. He truly cares for everyone. And no matter where you're at, he's going to help you. Even if you're sinning, he's still going to help you. And, you know, he's not the God that Mormons portray. He helps us where we're at. He understands where we're at, and he doesn't judge us for it. I also believe that religion can be there to help people coexist as long as it isn't used too much. And I think that's a good thing. And I also strongly believe in service and helping others and being honest, kind. You know, I just. I think the church has a lot of great things, but a lot of negative, too. And if it just ends up being too negative for you, I suggest that you prayerfully consider moving out. When I got the answer to do that, it was hard at first, but it ended up getting a lot of hope for me later. And no matter what, if you're struggling, there will be better times ahead. You do not need to go to suicide to make things better. In fact, it would have made it so that I couldn't have faced problems like I was able to. So I'm glad that everything worked out and I'm glad I got a second chance.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Beautiful. All right, Mike Woodruff, thank you so much for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Mike Woodruff [00:58:52] Right. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] And for our listeners, please join us@mormonstories.org if there are comments you want to make. If you have questions for Mike, if you want to show Mike your support. If you're a hater, don't even bother putting any comments on there. I'll delete them if I see them. If you. I want to thank everyone who financially supports Mormon Stories to make this podcast possible. If you Donations are always in flux and we rely on the donations to survive. So if anybody wants to see Mormon Stories continue, please consider becoming a monthly subscriber. That's how we make this possible. All your donations are tax deductible, and they go to a nonprofit that has accountants and oversight, full financial transparency. And all we're doing is trying to help people like this missionary series. And we'll do it as long as people are willing to say support us. So thanks to the listeners. Thanks to you, Mike. And we have several more interviews in store on this series, so please check back and and and for several more really compelling stories. All right, Mike, take care. Thanks so much.

Mike Woodruff [01:00:01] All right, you too.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Okay, bye.

Mike Woodruff [01:00:03] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Thanks for joining us today on More Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Mike Woodruff [01:00:37] Anger or malice,

John Dehlin [01:00:43] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.