Introduction and Growing Up Mormon

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 8, 2016, and we are continuing our series on. On the Mormon missionary experience in the 2000 and tens, with a focus, at least initially, on faith crises during the mission and early mission return.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Last. Last week we interviewed Josh Joshua Hesch. Wait, Tesh. Joshua Tesh. And. And now we are going to continue that series with Sage. Oh my gosh. Sage. Sage Dalton. And. And Sage's story is interesting for a couple reasons. Maybe, maybe immediately. One of the most interesting things about Sage's story is that she served in Josh Joshua Tesh's mission.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] So that's interesting. But then also, you know, we're going to be getting a sister missionary's perspective. And also, you know, Sage, Sage experienced some mental health difficulties while she was on her mission. And we're going to be talking about that and we're gonna be talking about early mission return because she came home early from her mission. So this is super exciting. So, Sage, Good morning. It's 7:30am in California.

Sage Dalton [00:01:46] Yeah, good morning.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Sage Dalton [00:01:49] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] My pleasure. Okay, so tell us a bit about your Mormon life in one minute prior to your mission.

Sage Dalton [00:02:00] Okay. Yeah, so I grew up Mormon. My mom's one of eight, my dad's one of nine. So big, big Mormon extended families. And they met at byu. And most of my life we were very, very, very active. And then when I was in middle school, I think 8th grade, my parents sat me down and said, you know, we're not going to go to church anymore. Kind of, kind of shocked because that's all I'd known. And so they laid out some reasons for me and they're reasons that would be familiar to a lot of people who listen to Mormon stories. It was a lot for me to take in. And I had really, you know, there was lots of things about the church I'd really, really still loved at that point.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] Okay, you were how old?

Sage Dalton [00:02:47] I think I was in eighth grade. I'm not sure exactly which year, but it was like late middle school or early high school. And so I decided, being kind of the stubborn, strong willed child, I was, to keep going, like, try and keep going on my own. So I went to seminary on my own and I did that for maybe a year. And then that was too hard.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] It makes sense for how many years ago. This was about what year.

Sage Dalton [00:03:16] Yeah, I'm 26 now, so that was maybe like 10 years ago. A little more.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Okay, so Mormon Stories would have started by then. It would have been the very beginning of sort of the Mormon Internet and people becoming aware through the Internet of difficult things. You say it's the normal stuff. Was it polygamy? Was it, you know, Book of Abraham?

Sage Dalton [00:03:40] Yeah. You know, I never really talked to my parents about how they, like, learned about all that stuff. I think my family was pretty open about it. Like, my mom's dad taught at byu and I think he, like, I think he just had some pretty candid conversations with her about it. And I don't know how my dad found out about it because I don't think he's been very open with his parents. But he's a philosophy professor, so he's like, very intellectual and very well read. And so I think maybe he just dug it out himself. I think my impression is he just wanted to know everything he could about Mormonism.

Sage Dalton [00:04:16] And he discovered all this stuff, all the historical stuff that really bothered him. And then I think he's got some bigger intellectual issues with religion in general that came up as he was studying philosophy. So it was that stuff. They both had really. This is relevant. They both had really terrible mission experiences. Both really hated their missions. My dad tells this story about just how depressed he was, and he was in Italy and my mom went to Korea, and they both just really struggled with mental health stuff on their missions, although I don't know if it was identified as such.

Sage Dalton [00:04:58] And they were just really not good experiences. Although my dad, I think, tried to spin it as something good and really wanted it to be something good anyway, so bad mission experiences. I don't think either of them really enjoyed the temple very much. So just a culmination of a lot of things.

Sage Dalton [00:05:18] I think it really came to a head when I have two younger brothers. My two younger brothers were about to get the priesthood. Well, my oldest brother and my parents really didn't want him to get the priesthood because as soon as you get the priesthood, it's like, mission, mission, mission, mission. You know, like that's all you hear at church in young men. You're preparing to go on a mission, this is what you're going to do. And they really didn't want any of us to go on a mission because they felt like it was really damaging and just a really painful, negative experience and a waste of time, honestly.

Sage Dalton [00:05:52] Like, they wanted us to do other things. So that's when they left. And I tried to go for a while on my own and I stopped doing that because it was too hard. And I finished out high school And I went to college at Dartmouth in New Hampshire.

Sage Dalton [00:06:09] And my freshman year was a little rough. I didn't feel like I was making any friends, so I thought, well, you know, maybe I can find the Mormons on campus and I'm sure they'll be nice, right? So I did.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay. So what year are you starting at Dartmouth?

Sage Dalton [00:06:26] I started in 2008.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] 2008.

Sage Dalton [00:06:28] Okay. So I found them, and it's a tiny group of Mormons at Dartmouth. There's like five of us. And they were really awesome. It was a really good group of people and really smart, and they had a lot of good kind of answers to those tough questions my parents had brought up. And, and I still felt like my parents had planted these seeds of things that kind of bothered me about Mormonism and I understood where they were coming from. But at Dartmouth, I had this group of friends that I felt like we could talk about that stuff. There was an open dialogue. It was kind of this weird little Mormon bubble that really worked for me because it was this special kind of group of people.

Sage Dalton [00:07:11] I mean, it wasn't. There was none of like the cultural stuff that really bothered me. And there was. And this group of friends was just, you know, they were, they were like me and they, they could understand and they could talk about those hard questions. So I was really active in the church in college and I really felt like it was an important part of my experience there. And I, I felt really grateful to the church for, for giving me this good group of friends and this sense of purpose and like all of those things that believing Mormons really value about Mormonism.

Sage Dalton [00:07:48] And so at the end of my time at Dartmouth, we had several, several of the boys in the group were returned missionaries and they talked really positively about their missions and how they were really life changing experiences and really grew their faith. And I really wanted to have this strong, strong testimony. And I felt like, I think that a mission might, you know, like, I felt like I had a testimony at that point. I felt like a mission would be, would be great.

Sage Dalton [00:08:17] And I loved the church at that point and I really wanted to share it. And I felt like the way that these boys talked about their missions, I felt like it was something I'd enjoy and it was valuable and like all of those things.

Sage Dalton [00:08:29] So I wanted to go on a mission. And so when I graduated, I, you know, I applied to be. What is it? Submit your papers? I don't even remember.

Depression and Faith Crisis on the Mission

John Dehlin [00:08:41] 2012.

Sage Dalton [00:08:43] Yeah, so 2012.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Okay, so 2012, you graduate and you submit your papers. Yeah, okay.

Sage Dalton [00:08:50] So I leave, like, right after a couple months after I graduate, and I got called to the California Roseville Mission, just like Josh. And I guess at this point, it's relevant to say that I've always kind of struggled a little bit with depression and anxiety. I had an eating disorder in high school that was pretty significant, like, hospitalized for it and stuff. And so I put all that on my application, as you're supposed to. Right. About your mental health and your physical health history.

Sage Dalton [00:09:21] And so there was a lot of discussion with my stake president about it and how I felt like I would handle that stuff on my mission. And. And so there was, like, you know, people were careful about. They wanted to make sure I was going to be okay. And I think. I don't know how much you know about this, but I think because all that stuff was on there, I think that's the reason I got called to the States, so.

Sage Dalton [00:09:46] Which I'm sure makes sense, right? That they want people to have resources here. So that was all on there. And I was pretty aware of the fact that missions could be hard on people with mental health issues, and I'd really thought about it and talked to a lot of people about what worked for them on their missions. I remember listening to a podcast you had done about the sister missionary in Temple Square. Well, it was actually a panel, but one of them was the sister missionary went to Temple Square, and she kind of struggled with some mental health stuff and feeling like I might have some of those issues.

Sage Dalton [00:10:20] It might be really hard, but I feel like. I feel like I can do it, and people get through it all the time, and I've got some ideas and some strategies, things that might work.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] So you had listened to Mormon stories before your mission?

Sage Dalton [00:10:34] Yes, yes. I mean, that's the other thing. I actually remember packing for my mission, listening to Mormon stories, and thinking, this is a little bit unusual. Right? Not many missionaries pack for their missions and listen to Mormon stories at the same time. Yeah, I mean, I was like. I think I knew pretty much everything at that point. Like, I knew about polygamy. I knew about, like, the historical issues in the Book of Mormon, and I knew about. I mean, the. I think I knew about pretty much everything. Like, I was a pretty avid Mormon stories listener. So, like, I think I'd heard it all, and I felt like. I mean, I think at that point a lot of your podcasts were. Or at least some of them were, like, really faithful members, like, who made it work.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Yeah, yeah.

Sage Dalton [00:11:25] And I think at that point, I was at that Place I was like. And I contribute some of that to this group at Dartmouth who, like, you know, and this openness like this. I had this community that was open about it, you know, So I think that's a huge part of it. And you talk about that a lot, that so many members feel betrayed. And I had this community where we could talk about it. So I didn't feel so betrayed. I felt like, you know, yeah, these things exist and we can talk about them.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] And none of them had ever spawned a crisis of faith for you. Your parents had introduced them so young.

Sage Dalton [00:12:01] I mean, when they introduced all those things to me and then I stopped going to church, I just, I didn't feel like maybe I had a crisis of faith, but I, like, understood where they were coming from. And like, my testimony at that point wasn't such that I was like, oh, this, like I had a crisis learning all of these things.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] You were inoculated in a sense.

Sage Dalton [00:12:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Is that fair to say?

Sage Dalton [00:12:25] Uh huh. Yeah. And then I went to Dartmouth and I felt like I did develop this testimony, but I knew all those things. And then my mission, as I guess we'll talk about, was the crisis.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Okay, okay, okay. So, yeah, talk to us about what kind of the. Just real briefly. Talk about anything you need to that takes us to the point where you start really struggling.

Sage Dalton [00:12:51] Okay. Yeah. So in the mtc, I already start kind of feeling a little bit depressed just because of, I think just like all the rules and all the guilt and all the perfectionism that's just pounded into missionaries. You got to be perfect. You got to do everything perfect all the time. And so I already start feeling, like, kind of depressed, kind of yucky. I remember talking to some of my church leaders about it. I don't remember, like, who you go to in the mtc.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Your branch president.

Sage Dalton [00:13:20] Yeah. I remember going to talk to them being like, look it, look, I have this, like, I was super open about it. It was like I have this history of depression and mental health issues and I'm feeling depressed.

Sage Dalton [00:13:30] And, you know, I think they had told me just like, you know, pray more. And at that point it wasn't so bad. That wasn't a crisis yet. But it started early. I got out to California. My first transfer was kind of hard. I remember thinking, I don't know, maybe I should just go home instead of staying for two transfers in one area. I told my mission president, I'm struggling already, so. So I think he heard me and he transferred me to Roseville with a sister who I think Was a year in, and she and I just got along so well, and she really understood me. And I stayed there, I think, for six months with her. And those six months were great.

John Dehlin [00:14:18] What was her name again?

Sage Dalton [00:14:19] Sister Montgomery.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Montgomery.

Sage Dalton [00:14:23] I don't think she'll mind.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Okay.

Sage Dalton [00:14:26] Yeah. She was just so awesome, and we just. I think she really understood me, and we got along really well. And we had some people we were working with that I felt like I really connected to. So those six months were really, really good. And then she had to go home. She was done.

Sage Dalton [00:14:42] So I trained in that area, so they sent me a greenie, and so I trained her, and that was good. And then I got sent to Yuba City, which is a little bit of a poorer area. And I actually, that area, I did pretty well. And we had a lot of people to teach, and so that was. I felt busy, and that was good. But it was actually in that area. So I was there for a while and I was doing well. But I really started to get more and more depressed. And I think it was just, like. I'd been out, I think, over a year at that point, and I was just getting tired, and it was just.

Sage Dalton [00:15:22] It's just so much all the time, you know, just like all the guilt and, like, all. And just feeling like you've got to fill all your time, and I don't know. And the rejection's really hard. I'd really used exercise as a normal person, not a missionary, to deal with my depression. There's only so much you can do, like, you know, you got to be with your companion, and you only get 30 minutes. And so I think it was just all wearing me down. So we were tracking one day, and I just felt like I couldn't take it anymore. And I just sat down in the grass and cried.

Sage Dalton [00:16:01] Just couldn't do it anymore. So my companion was like, okay, let's go. We went back to the apartment. We just stayed there for a couple days. And I felt so guilty about that. I was trying so hard to be the most obedient missionary. And I felt so bad, but I could not get out of bed at that point.

Sage Dalton [00:16:21] We called the mission president. He heard about it, and I got transferred, just like Josh, right back to where the mission president lives, close to him, I guess, so he can keep an eye on me. I had also brought up with my mission president throughout my mission that I know about these things in the church, and some of them are hard for me, or some are more hard than others, et cetera, et cetera. So in addition to all those mental health things going on, I also, as a missionary, think I saw mainstream Mormonism.

Sage Dalton [00:16:55] That kind of bothered me. Like, the cultural stuff bothered me. And then also just like, I just. I think those answers that I came up with at Dartmouth just stopped working, especially when I was trying to teach people. And, like, I just saw so many people with good lives without the church. I was like, what? You know, like. Like, you don't need the church. Like, you're doing fine without it.

Sage Dalton [00:17:23] So that. And then in Yuba City, that last area we found, actually she reached out to us. She did that, like, mormon.org thing was, like, request the missionaries, which is like every missionary's dream, right? You get one of those. It's perfect. They're like, come to me, you know, to find them. And she. Her name's Rose and she's gay, and she was living with her partner, and she was like, the perfect investigator. She read the Book of Mormon like, eight times.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Holy moly.

Sage Dalton [00:17:53] Yeah. Just like, threw herself into it. And just, like, really, she felt the spirit and just, like, really, really wanted to be baptized and obviously could not because she's living with this partner. And I just, like, that just crushed me. I just felt like I'm like, she should be able to get baptized. She's the perfect investigator, you know, and she just. And she loves this person that she lives with. And, like, I just. I don't know. And then the way that the members treated her in Yuba City just, like, really bothered me. Like, they just didn't embrace her, you know? And she's also. She's deaf, so she was also a little different that way.

Sage Dalton [00:18:30] Like, and I just felt like if we really were Christ like people, we would embrace her with open arms and love her just like anybody else. And that's just not how the members reacted to her. And that really.

Sage Dalton [00:18:45] It hurt. I love. I love Rose. I mean, she's been a great. We are still in touch. And I love her. And I just. That I think more than anything was. I was like, this is wrong. You know, like, she should.

Sage Dalton [00:19:00] She should be treated the same. And I honestly felt like she should be baptized. So I'm starting to differ doctrinally now. I'm starting to think this is wrong. Whatever the church is telling me is not what I feel in my heart is right and Christlike and all those pure values that I really want to aspire to.

Sage Dalton [00:19:28] So that happened. And then. So this last area I went to, we had, like, nobody to teach, and I was just getting More and more depressed. And I felt like I had a companion who maybe didn't understand quite as well what was going on. And it just got to a point where it was kind of a crisis. I mean, as a missionary, you can see a therapist like three times. There's like a limit and it's like a church approved therapist. So I did like all three of those, but that's obviously not enough.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] You get three sessions.

Sage Dalton [00:19:58] Yeah. Then you're done. That's it? Yeah. No joke. Like, ridiculous. And then I'd been taking Prozac and so they had me seeing a psychiatrist. Periodic.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Can I just say, as a mental health professional, we're taught that a client shouldn't expect to see material results until the sixth session.

Sage Dalton [00:20:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] I mean, that's when the real impact starts to kick in.

Sage Dalton [00:20:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] So three, you, like, have an intake, you have a couple sessions.

Sage Dalton [00:20:28] The first session you tell the person all your history and that's it. It's done.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] That's one. And then the therapist has two shots to fix depression and then you're done. Oh my gosh. That's. That's crazy.

Sage Dalton [00:20:40] It is crazy. And then so they had me seeing like a psychiatrist in Sacramento a couple times. So like the mission president would like take me down there. And so he tried to mess with my medication and it ended up making me really sick. Like, I got really dizzy and like.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] But the mission president was messing with your medication?

Sage Dalton [00:20:58] No, no, no. The psychiatrist was trying to adjust it and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] So you went on the mission with meds?

Sage Dalton [00:21:03] Yeah, I came. I was like on a low dose of Prozac and that was approved and that was like on my application and stuff. So he like, I think increased it and then maybe added another med. And like, that just like made me feel like all of it just made me feel worse. So I think I just kind of felt. And looking back, I kind of feel like the mental health care and like the medical care was like, really? And like, I'm sure, you know, like medication management doesn't help that much if you're not in therapy. Right. So like, like trying to just like adjust my meds without this like, significant therapy. I don't know. So I think all of that was just. It was.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] That's a really. That's a really disturbing reality for missionaries for sure.

Sage Dalton [00:21:47] Like, almost like. It's almost like scary and like, like I went home from my mission and I mean, we'll get to that. But my mom was like, almost ready to sue the church for medical malpractice and like, not giving me proper medical care, which I think, honestly is probably true. Like, I don't think I got proper medical care on my mission, which is sad. Like, the church should take care of these young, vulnerable people who are trying to. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Yeah. Okay.

Sage Dalton [00:22:21] So I just got more and more depressed, and I got to this point where I felt pretty actively suicidal. And I told people, I told my mission president. They took me to the hospital and they checked me into an inpatient facility for a week, and then I went home.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Okay. And I'm so sorry to hear that it got that bad. Do you. How much of the suicidality do you associate with the religious. I mean, with either the faith crisis stuff, change in belief, trouble on the mission? Do you think that you would have just. This would have happened if you were at home? Like, it was just a chemical.

Sage Dalton [00:23:00] No, I don't. Like. I think it was very. I think it was 100% tied to the fact that I was losing my faith, that I. You know, I just was in this culture where I was just like. It's just like, the guilt. I mean, I keep going back to that, but the guilt is, like, overwhelming. Like, I would wake up and feel guilty immediately. Like, you know, like there was something I didn't do. Right. Because it's impossible to follow all those rules all of the time or even for, like, one minute. Like, you cannot follow those rules.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Like, the rules. What kind of rules were hard to follow?

Sage Dalton [00:23:33] Just like, you know, the timing. Like, you've got to wake up exactly this time. You have to exercise from exactly this time to this time. Like, you know what I mean? Like, all of those. And then, like, that you have to be busy all the time and that you have to meet these numbers and that you have to.

Sage Dalton [00:23:48] You have to be like, you have to pray with so much sincerity. Like, I just always felt like there was something I felt guilty about, you know, that your dinner has to be exactly one hour. That you have to, like, you know, we eat dinner with members and they'd keep us longer, and I'd feel guilty. But we can't say, we gotta go.

Sage Dalton [00:24:11] And then in that last area, I just felt like there was nobody who wanted to talk to us. We weren't doing any good. And at that point, I just felt like I didn't even believe in it anymore. After the thing with Rose, and then after.

Sage Dalton [00:24:27] Just like. Just after meeting so many people who had good, beautiful lives without the church or even more beautiful lives than people in the church, you know, like, I felt like, we met people who were just more Christ like and sincere and loving than the church members we were interacting with. And they didn't have the church and they didn't need it. And I just.

Sage Dalton [00:24:47] I just. I just felt like it was crumbling. You know, it's just like it's not working anymore. And then all of those things that I knew about kept coming up because, you know, people will, like, throw them at you, like, did you know?

Sage Dalton [00:25:01] So I kept thinking about those, and those answers didn't work for me anymore, the answers I had for those questions, because I was losing my faith in the fact that this organization was this, like, pure, wonderful, good thing. So.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] So by 2013, investigators are coming at you with the problems about the church.

Sage Dalton [00:25:21] Yeah, I mean, they did throw out my mission. That's, I think, pretty common in the States that you have people who know about this stuff who throw it at you. But in the beginning, I still felt like I had enough faith and had answers that worked for me, that it didn't bother me so much. And I actually remember telling Mike, when people throw it at us and my companions hadn't heard about this stuff, I'd be like, well, yeah, I know. I know about that. And here's some things that make me feel better about it. But towards the end of my mission, I was like, yeah, you're right. I wouldn't even try and counter people anymore. I'd be like, yeah, it's terrible.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Like, which issues?

Sage Dalton [00:25:56] Oh, I think polygamy was brought up a lot. Like the church's stance on gays, which honestly wasn't as bad as it is now. But that. What else would people bring up? I think stuff about the Book of Mormon. Yeah, sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Okay. And so the inoculation worked until you got disrupted sort of emotionally. Things started feeling wrong, Things started seeming wrong. Things seemed troubling, and it was sort of an emotional turmoil that then made the inoculation sort of evaporate and. And then the faith stuff became overwhelming.

Sage Dalton [00:26:46] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then, I mean, after. After my mission, real quick, do you

John Dehlin [00:26:53] remember one last thing? Do you remember trying to. What you tried to do in your relationship with your Heavenly Father, to not be suicidal, to get well in those really last, most difficult moments? How was your relationship with Heavenly Father in trying to get better?

Sage Dalton [00:27:13] Yeah, so I think I did all the things that the church told me to do. I tried to pray harder. I tried to read my scripture, all the things that were available to me as a missionary. I think I had 10 blessings on my mission. I was really open about it. I told everyone I was struggling, and I think I really tried.

Sage Dalton [00:27:38] I think I did all the things that I was supposed to do. I tried, and I wanted it to work. I think part of my going into the mission kind of knew that this was going to either make it or break it. It's either I'm going to have this experience that some of the returned missionaries tell me about that I love it, and it works, and it strengthens my testimony, or it's going to break me. And I really wanted it to be. I wanted. I wanted to make it work. I wanted to be.

Sage Dalton [00:28:09] I wanted a testimony. I wanted all of that. And I really tried. I mean, the stuff Josh talked about, about disobedient missionaries and the mission, I don't think I even was aware of that because I was just like, so straight line. I tried so hard.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Were you there when the iPads and the Facebook were rolled out?

Sage Dalton [00:28:33] I was with Josh. We both were iPad missionaries that we went around the mission handing out iPads.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] Oh, you helped out with the textbook.

Sage Dalton [00:28:42] Yeah, there was, like, four of us. It was like, me and my companion, Josh and his companion, I think, and maybe one more missionary.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] And did you ever talk to Josh about his faith crisis?

Sage Dalton [00:28:50] Uh, that's what. I was so shocked when I got home, and, like, Josh had come home a little early, and, like, then he started. We were friends on Facebook and he started posting stuff. Oh, I wonder if, like, something happened. So I messaged him, and he's been open with me, so I hope it's okay. I'm saying that Josh.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Oh, so you guys are suffering in parallel, but you can't talk?

Sage Dalton [00:29:09] Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing. Just don't, like, I think. I mean, honestly, I'm sure there are other missionaries having faith crises at the same time in the same mission. And just, you know, you're so isolated. You just got your companion, and sometimes that's great. If you guys get along really well, then you've got a friend. But if you don't, then. Or even if they just don't understand, you know, like, I had some companions who just, like, really tried to understand what was going on for me and just couldn't. You know, they just, like, it was just beyond them. And it is hard. It's hard to understand if you haven't been through it. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] So you. You didn't make a suicide attempt, but you. You. You told your mission president you were actively suicidal?

Sage Dalton [00:29:50] And, I mean, like, just like, I was open all along. As soon as it got to a crisis. I was like, I'm in a crisis and I need to go to the hospital.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] Good for you. Good for you. So you were submitted to a behavioral health unit kind of thing.

Sage Dalton [00:30:03] Yeah. Which was. I mean, I'm sure, you know, those are. They're pretty terrible.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] What was terrible about that?

Sage Dalton [00:30:09] It's just like, I don't know. I mean, they're crisis centers. Right. They're just trying to get people stable so they can go somewhere else to do the long term work. But they're hard. Like, they take away all your stuff. Right. Because they don't want you to. My favorite was they were going through all my stuff and they looked at my scriptures and, like, you don't need these. Right. And I was like, no. I really just wanted. I wanted them to take them away. I just wanted a break. And I did get a break. They just took everything away. And they had the TV going at the center, and I just would sit, and at that point I was like, it's over. I can watch tv. So I watched TV and read a book.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] And did they heavily medicate you?

Sage Dalton [00:30:52] Yeah. What did they do? I think they gave me a couple things, and I think mostly they were just like, what do you want to do? And it took me a couple days to be like, I need to go home. I still was almost like, I want to finish out the one last month.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Yeah. This is in your last month? Yeah. Again, just like with Josh, the month

Sage Dalton [00:31:13] I was almost there.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Was there a part of you that was like, no, no, I can stick out one more month. Yeah.

Sage Dalton [00:31:18] I mean, I think that's. I think I was there for a whole week, and I was thinking, well, you know, maybe I could, like, I could make it right. I don't know. I was like. I think at the end I was like, no.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Wow.

Sage Dalton [00:31:31] When I was just like, you know, I think my faith was gone. Like, I was like, so what am I even gonna do? You know, I mean, being a missionary, when you don't feel like you have a testimony is like, I think it actually gets hellish. Like, what do I do? Like, I don't want to go and teach people about this because I don't really believe in it. And what else do I do? I don't have anything else. Play games on my iPad. That didn't even cross my mind.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] You didn't play Clash of Clans?

Sage Dalton [00:32:01] No, I didn't. I had no idea there was an underground clash of Clans.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] So did you have a final talk with your mission president before you go Home?

Sage Dalton [00:32:10] Oh, yeah. I mean, so I was still under the mission president who left before Josh. So Josh had a different mission president, just so everyone knows. So my mission president sent me home. He was kind and I think he tried to understand. I think he just was not. I don't think he was. I don't think any mission presidents are trained to deal with this stuff. And I think after I went to the hospital, he was kind of like, you know, like our departing interview. He mostly was just like, how are you feeling? Like, are you gonna be okay? Like, it wasn't like the typical, like, you know, like, what's your testimony?

Sage Dalton [00:32:43] Blah, blah, blah. I think he just wanted me to be okay. Which to his credit, was the right thing to do at that point. Like, not to focus on my faith, but to focus on my health. So, yeah, I mean, I went home thinking, you know, I'm gonna take a break from church and then maybe go back. Like, try and go back. Like, I still was holding out this hope that like.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] So you were honorably released, right?

Sage Dalton [00:33:06] Uh huh. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] And how were you received by your stake president?

Sage Dalton [00:33:11] You know, my parents had moved while I was on my mission. So this was a stake president I had never met. And he never met my parents because they're not active. So they had to all. My mission president had to find him, and my parents, we had to figure out where he lived. And so my mom picked me up from the airport and drove me immediately to the stake president's house to get released so it could just be over. He was nice. He's still just a complete stranger to me. It was just like the.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] He didn't make you feel bad? He didn't make you feel bad?

Sage Dalton [00:33:43] No, he was just like. Yeah, it was just, I think just his typical, whatever.

Suicidal Crisis, Early Return, and Leaving Home

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Were you allowed to communicate with your family during your worst times?

Sage Dalton [00:33:52] Yeah, I think what ended up happening was, you know, as soon as I told them I needed to go to the hospital, they took me to the hospital. And then I think they. I think my mission president called my parents pretty much right away.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] I mean, leading up to before the hospital.

Sage Dalton [00:34:04] Oh, no, I think just like, whatever. I think we just did Mother's Day and Christmas.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] So did your parents know you were approaching suicidality on your mission?

Sage Dalton [00:34:14] No, I don't think so. I mean, I think I was pretty open, just like I was with everybody else in my letters about, like, you know, this is kind of hard, but I don't think. I mean, it kind of came to a head pretty quickly and, you know, I would Email them every week. But a lot can change in a week, you know, So I think they were pretty surprised when they found out, you know, okay, she's in the hospital.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] But it wasn't some big, long, chronic thing that you weren't able to tell them. Because I've heard that there's a rule, don't write home negative things. Is that.

Sage Dalton [00:34:45] Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's lots of pressure to do that. But my parents and I, obviously, because, like, they're not active and like, or they weren't active and like, we were. We'd always been pretty open. And yeah, for whatever reason, I guess that didn't, that didn't make me feel guilty being pretty open about, like, you know, sometimes this is hard. And I think my parents actually tried to help me find the good in it. Like, my mom wrote to me once, she was like, I love that you were like spending time with people who are lonely and that, like. And that's honestly what I felt best about my mission, is that we'd find people who were lonely and like, just wanted someone to talk to and like, that stuff was good.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] I could just think that if I were non believing and I had a kid on a mission and the kids started to get suicidal, I would lose it. You know, I would just be like, get my kid home now.

Sage Dalton [00:35:35] Like, just like I said. I mean, my parents were furious. Like, they were like, you know, you didn't give her what she needed. And like, my mom was ready to sue. And then I think at one point they sent us the hospital bill. And she was like, no, they sent

John Dehlin [00:35:49] you the hospital bill.

Sage Dalton [00:35:50] And she was like. And she wrote this letter to the mission president being like, you need to take care of this or we are going to take legal action.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

Sage Dalton [00:36:02] And they did to the churches, like, they were like, okay, we'll do that. Wow. So, okay. I think also my parents just wanted to help me move on. Like, they didn't want to, like, you know, afterwards.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Yeah. Okay. So the, so the, the iPad didn't contribute and Facebook didn't contribute to your faith crisis? It wasn't relevant for you?

Sage Dalton [00:36:27] No, I mean, I think at that very end when I was starting to be like, I don't think I believe this anymore. I think I joined Mormon Stories and read some stuff and that was comforting on your mission. Yeah, but I.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] You joined the group too.

Sage Dalton [00:36:42] Yeah, but I don't think I ever commented. And I'd been in the group before, so it wasn't like new to me, it's not like Josh, who was discovering all this stuff. It was like, oh, yeah, you know, like, okay, like, here's some people who feel like I do, which I knew about before, and I kind of miss that.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] Okay, so you were able because you think about that a lot. Do missionaries right now have ways to find support? Does that make sense?

Sage Dalton [00:37:08] Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's going on in terms of, like, how many missionaries are still using Facebook and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] My guess what I've heard is they've really locked down those apps so that you can't get on unapproved.

Sage Dalton [00:37:22] So, I mean, yeah, I don't know, it would be really good if there was something, but I think it's going to be hard to create something because of all the rules, you know?

John Dehlin [00:37:33] All right, listeners, for those listening or watching, we got to figure out how to provide support to struggling missionaries, because right now there's nothing. Exmorman. Reddit's got some resources, but that's something that's important. Okay, so you get home and you say you were trying to make the church work.

Life After the Mission and Reflections on Leaving

Sage Dalton [00:37:53] Yeah, I mean, I think my thought was at that point that I'll take a break, I really need a break, and then maybe I'll go back. That was what I told everybody. And then I just. I never went back. I took my garments off pretty quickly and I felt really good about that. I was like, this is good. I don't really want to put this back on. I really didn't like them. And I just felt like the symbolism of putting them on, when I took them off, it almost felt like the reverse. It felt like this huge relief that I didn't have to wear those anymore.

Sage Dalton [00:38:23] And this huge, freeing thing. And then it just went on from there. Everything that I just kind of let go just felt like a relief. I was like, huh? I don't have to make that work anymore. I don't have to go through the mental gymnastics or the cognitive dissonance or any of that to try and deal with all those things that were hard and the world kind of opened up. I think a lot of post Mormons feel this way. I have all these things now that I can try and all these things that I can believe in that I couldn't before that feel more true and right than what the church was doing for me.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] And this is. You don't have to answer this, but how has your depression been since leaving your mission? Has it gotten that bad again?

Sage Dalton [00:39:18] Yeah, so I actually did. I think I went back to church. So I went to nursing school at Philadelphia after my mission. And I think at one point in Philadelphia I was like, maybe I'll try and find the ward here. Like, I. I was like, maybe, I don't know. And so I went once and I think I went to sacrament meeting and I was like, I don't want to be here. And I left. And later that night I started feeling pretty actively suicidal again. And so I checked into the hospital for a night. Like, I just.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Oh, just going to church one time

Sage Dalton [00:39:46] puts you back there and was like, I feel unsafe. And so I spent like one night there and then I was like, okay, I think I'm alright. But that I think was the end for me because I was like, all it took was walking into the church building essentially to like bring all that stuff back and to feel really guilty and feel really. So I was like, I think I'm good, I think I'm done.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] And my question was just about your mental health. So it sounds like you're kind of saying the church was the depression.

Sage Dalton [00:40:19] Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I still. I mean, I've always. I think I'm just a little bit prone to it, but I think if I'm actively working at it and I have so much. I think letting the church go has been really, really good. And I found lots of other things that work great for me and make me feel good and full of purpose and more connected to what I think is me. I feel like I found me after.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] This is important. So what are some of the most important things in your life that have filled in the holes that have brought you joy and meaning in replace of the church? Just anything that comes to mind. It can be short, whatever, just for someone struggling and they've decided the church isn't going to work for them. What are some of the things that have meant the most to you either? Belief wise, practice wise, behavior wise, whatever?

Sage Dalton [00:41:14] Yeah, I mean, I think I'd like to. I suddenly felt like I could care about all the causes the church said were wrong. Like, I could care about the gay rights movement. Like, I could care about LGBTQ stuff. I could care about feminism, I could care about a career that I really want. Like, I could be that person instead of focusing on, you know, I gotta get married, I gotta have kids. So, yeah, I went to nursing school. I really want to go back and be a nurse midwife. So I like, I love working with women. I care about women's health. I now work at Planned Parenthood, which obviously the Church would not be cool with, like. And I love my job. I feel like it's really.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] What do you do for Planned Parenthood?

Sage Dalton [00:41:58] So I do work as an. So I'm an RN right now, and I work most days of the week. I, like, have my own schedule, and I see people who want birth control, and I. There's a rule that I can order and dispense birth control under a standing order from a physician, which is super cool. I'm super independent, and I see a lot of young people.

Sage Dalton [00:42:21] It's awesome. I just think it's awesome. I work with a great group of women. People who work at Planned Parenthood are obviously a little bit special. I love my job. I feel like I've got lots to look forward to in terms of my career.

Sage Dalton [00:42:39] I feel like I've been able to have relationships with people I never would have met if I had been so focused on being Mormon and being part of the church. I just feel like I can. I just feel like the world has opened up. You know, I can love people openly without, like, my mom would always say. She was like, you know, there's whenever.

Sage Dalton [00:43:03] When you're in the church, everything's kind of, like, shrouded by, like, you know, we gotta, like, convert all our friends. You know, like, you have to be like this, like, missionary all the time, but when you're out of the. Like, you can just love people for who they are. You don't have to feel like everyone needs to be Mormon, which is, like, so freeing, you know, that you can. You can be open to all these ideas and all these people and all these perspectives and all of, like. I think that more than anything, has been such a blessing.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] And then. How's dating gone for you? Good.

Sage Dalton [00:43:34] I mean, so I'm engaged. I live with my fiance. He's actually someone. This is interesting. I met him on my mission. We knocked on his door, and nothing happened on my mission, but we kept in touch and we had a lot in common. And I visited him while I was in nursing school, and we decided. He asked me to marry him. And I want to. That was a blessing for sure from my mission that I met him, but also a blessing that I've been able to let the church go and so I can have a relationship with him. Him that, you know, I wouldn't be able to if I had to be. You know, I had to follow all the. Everything the church wanted me to do, and I had to, you know, marry Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Okay, so for you, the. The major depression was really tied to the church and leaving the church has made that, for the most part, go away.

Sage Dalton [00:44:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Okay, that's.

Sage Dalton [00:44:29] There's still things I always need to work on and it's still a little bit of a battle, but by and large, leaps and bounds better than it was when I was part of the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] So my clock says you've got about five minutes, is that right?

Sage Dalton [00:44:43] I do, yeah. I'm almost out of time.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] Okay. So what advice do you have for the church in dealing more effectively with missionaries?

Sage Dalton [00:44:52] Oh, I just wish there was more training for mission presidents. Like, I honestly think my mission president wanted to help more than he could and he just had no clue what to do.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Mental health training?

Sage Dalton [00:45:02] Yeah, yeah, for sure. I just. And I, and I think, I mean, I think missionaries need better medical care and better mental health care. Like, would it kill them to have be able to let missionaries go to therapy once a week? Like instead of just three times? Like it's one hour. Like you're gonna let them go three times.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Like, but that's a lot of. That's very expensive if therapy's 150 bucks an hour.

Sage Dalton [00:45:25] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] And there's 80,000 missionaries. I could get expensive really quick.

Sage Dalton [00:45:30] But I think it's their obligation, honestly, if they're going to put missionaries in these stressful situations and make them feel guilt ridden. I think every person, I mean, I think healthcare is a human right. And I think everyone deserves proper medical care. Everyone deserves proper mental health care. And missionaries are so young and vulnerable, and they're even more young and vulnerable now that they're younger. I just think the church has an obligation to take care of them.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] And they're still on their parents health insurance. So theoretically the parents health insurance could still cover it.

Sage Dalton [00:46:03] Yeah. And if they don't have health insurance, I think the church should pay for it. I really do. They have money.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] They have a little bit.

Sage Dalton [00:46:11] They have plenty.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] They have a little bit. Okay. It sounds like you didn't have a problem with your parents or ward members, so you don't have a lot to say about that. Is that right in terms of how you were received by your stake president, your bishop, your ward?

Sage Dalton [00:46:29] Yeah. I mean, I think everyone's really tried to be kind. A lot of people don't understand. And I think it makes some people that I know sad that I've left the church. But, you know, it's my journey and I need to. I try and just like, remember that when I feel bad about how other people feel about my journey and like you know what, it's my journey and it's my life and I'm glad the church works for you, but it really doesn't for me.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] So I'm asking everyone this. Do you regret serving your mission or not?

Sage Dalton [00:47:00] Yeah, that's a hard question. I mean, I think a lot of it, I feel was really hard and almost kind of a waste of time. I think at that point that's kind of how I feel about it. Like, I kind of wish I'd spent it doing something more meaningful, but I obviously met someone I love and that's. I can't really say I want that to go away. So I'm glad for that. And I do have some relationships for my mission that I really value and I wouldn't want to lose those. So I don't think I can say no. But I wish it hadn't been so traumatic. Although it's gotten me to a place where I feel really good. So you can't wish away the bad stuff because it gets you something. Some of the best stuff.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] That's powerful. So 19 year old, let's say there's a 19 year old Mormon stories listener that's contemplating, female contemplating a mission, or male, 18. Do you have any advice for them or thoughts if they're like on the fence?

Sage Dalton [00:47:58] Yeah, I mean, I think just like Josh said, I think really consider your options, do your research and know what you're getting yourself into. But I don't want to tell people to do one thing or the other. I think it's a super, super personal choice. And I think a lot of people told me maybe a mission wouldn't be great for me. And it was really hard, but there still were some good things I got from it.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] Okay, so do your research, make sure you know what you're getting into.

Sage Dalton [00:48:28] Yeah. And I think use whatever you've got, you know, like come up with some things that are going to work well for you on the mission.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] And, and if there's a missionary right now who's really struggling, do you have any advice for them?

Sage Dalton [00:48:42] I would tell them, do what you gotta do. If you have to come home, come home. Try not to feel bad about it. That's really hard. But do whatever you need to do to feel okay. And if that means you have to stay in your apartment for a couple days, do that. Or if you need to come home, do that. Or, you know, if you need to. Like, I love what Josh said about how he just tried to serve people instead of teaching people. Like, do that. Like there's Lots. There's plenty of people everywhere who could use some service. So do that. I mean, find whatever it is that makes you feel like you're. You're gonna be okay.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Well, Sage, you're delightful. If you don't mind, just end real quick with your testimony, whatever that. Secular testimony, whatever it is.

Sage Dalton [00:49:27] Yeah, I mean, I. I believe in people. I really believe in autonomy. I love. That's something the church gave me, I think. I believe in agency and autonomy, that people can make their own choices and follow their conscience. I believe that we all have something in us that tells us what's right. I believe in that. I believe in loving people for who they are. Pure, unconditional love. I believe in that. And I believe in, like, I have a lot of hope. I have a lot of hope for everything. For our world and for our future. And I honestly hope the church will make progress, too, because I believe in. I believe in that, too.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Well, you're a great big ball of sunshine for a Monday morning, so thank you for. Thank you for sharing. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your experiences with everybody. I really appreciate it.

Sage Dalton [00:50:23] Thanks for doing what you do, John. It's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] All right, Sage. Good luck. Good luck. Send me a wedding invitation.

Sage Dalton [00:50:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] All right. Good luck.

Sage Dalton [00:50:31] Okay, bye.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Take care.

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