Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast where we are going to be talking about what we think is a really important topic in the life, in the history, in the status of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2022. It is August 4, 2022, and I am John Dehlin. We are here in studio with two of my favorite humans. We're here with Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo. Thanks for jo us.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:32] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] Thanks for helping us prepare today.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] And we've got Jen in studio. Hey, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:37] Hey, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] You ready for this?

Jenn Kamp [00:00:39] I'm ready.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] Okay, so we have prepared a pretty, pretty extensive presentation and we have a lot of slides to get through. And what I want to say just at the outset is thanks to the feedback from many listeners, we have a couple really, really crucial samples of multimedia, a video from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, and then an audio recording from a listener that we're playing at the very end. As we summarize that, we really want to make sure you do your best to either stay for or come back for. Because while we hope to to be as efficient as we can in this, we are going to end with a really big punch, something that I think is likely to be experienced as very troubling and is very important. And we're going to be sharing that at the end. That's not an intentional hook to keep you for the whole show. It's literally placed in the point of the show where we think it's going to be crucial. So please stick around to the very end or make sure and come back to catch the end, because it's really important. Okay, so we are going to be talking, as I mentioned, about the great Mormon missionary decline. This is a topic that has started to get a lot of waves recently, and we thought it would make sense to begin by showing a prediction that Mormon prophet, seer and revelator and apostle Jeffrey R. Holland made. It was basically an article that he shared in the Salt Lake Tribune where he said many, many years ago that he predicted that there would be 100,000 Mormon missionaries by 2019. Gerardo, do you remember what year he made that prediction?

Reporting on the Missionary Decline Story

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:21] I believe it's around 2014. And this was like an interview that was done by a radio host. And then the Salt Lake Tribune reported on that.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] Okay, so he made this prediction. And we just thought it was important to kind of begin with this because we'll see in a second how well his superpowers of being a prophet, Syrian Revelator are as it relates to Mormon missions. So I want to replay sort of what was the impetus to a lot of this. Someone shared with me at one point a talk given by a Stake High Councilman in Davis county that I've already shared on Mormon Stories that has been shared widely, you know, on TikTok and on Instagram and elsewhere. But it's basically a new form of rhetoric about the urgency to serve missions that I don't think we've ever seen before in the history of the Mormon Church. So for many of you, this is going to be a bit of a repeat, but I think it's important for us to go ahead and play it. Did you have something you wanted to say ahead of time?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:23] Yeah. He's a first counselor of the State Presidency, not a height.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Yeah, yeah. So let's go ahead and roll that as context for what we're going to be discussing.

Guest [00:03:33] A little tangent here real quick. We were recently, as a family, having a discussion about missionary work. One of my daughters was at school. She was talking with her friends about President Nelson's recent call for young men to serve missions. And the friends there at the lunch table were debating, do young men have to go, or is it a choice? Now, young men, I hope you'll think about this carefully because there's an important doctrine here. Do you have a choice whether to serve a mission? I'm going to tell you why you don't. Now, that might rub you the wrong way, because we're so big into liberty and agency, and. And we do believe we're a free, democratic kind of people. Right? But here's why you don't have the choice anymore. It's because when you were baptized, you signed on to the Lord's plan, which is giving up free agency and accepting moral agency. The difference being that we give up thinking that we know for ourselves what is best in our lives, and we trust the Lord to give us the direction that is best for us in our lives. And so, young men, if that sounds like foreign doctrine to you, I hope you'll reconsider the importance of that baptismal and sacramental covenant where every week we come to church and we say, I'm giving up what I think is best, and I trust the Lord to guide and direct me in my life, and his will becomes paramount and no longer is what we want the most important thing in our lives. We recognize that what the Lord can give us is much greater than anything we could choose for ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] Okay, so hopefully most of you have already seen that video, when we shared it, generally it was received with disgust and concern. Jen, do you remember how you felt when you saw that video?

Jenn Kamp [00:05:39] I hated it.

Guest 2 [00:05:40] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:05:41] Taking away someone's consent or autonomy. Yeah, autonomy. Like I'm. I hate. I hate that. I'm all for everyone having autonomy over their own body and choices. And those words are. I don't. So terrible. It just kind of. It almost made me, like, gasp. I think when I first saw it that he would have the goal to say that.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] And you come at this. This is kind of personal to you, right? Because you've. You've had at least one of your kids serve missions, Is that right?

Jenn Kamp [00:06:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] So it's kind of personal to you?

Jenn Kamp [00:06:17] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] It.

Jenn Kamp [00:06:18] It gets my. My mama bear blood boiling when I hear words like that being said to the young adults or youth in the. In the church, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] And when I shared it, there was some pushback. Like someone who's very well respected on TikTok and on Instagram, LDS Church employee named Dan McClelland, who does great work. We all love and respect him. He responded expressing concern that maybe I had mischaracterized the church as sort of globally telling young men they no longer have a choice. And I conceded to him that I may have been. I may have maybe overstated the case a little bit. But the point I made back is, number one, this rhetoric about moral agency versus free agency, it comes from Russell M. Nelson, and it comes from David A. Bednar. So the Stake Presidency members rhetoric about it not being a choice was rooted in teachings of prophet seers and revelators, generally speaking. But then there was the question of how widespread this sort of rhetoric really was. And at the time, I shared it. When Dan McClellan responded, I think his reaction was, you know, John, this is. Maybe, John, this is just an isolated rogue, you know, Mormon church leader. Maybe this isn't, you know, global pressure. And maybe, John, you're overstating the case. Is that. Is that your sense of the exchange that happened?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:53] Yeah, that's my understanding. And do you want me to respond to Dan or do you want to first?

Jenn Kamp [00:07:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] No, no. I mean, I just want. I just want to make sure we love Dan McClellen. We respect him. So this is not trashing him. He's doing important work.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Yeah. Did you have a response to Dan? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:09] Just as someone, you know that h. I've talked about this multiple times about having a dad who has served in multiple stake presidencies and who's a bishop right now. I know For a fact that this kind of rhetoric does not generate, is not generated in the back, in a vacuum. This is usually passed through 70s area, 70s area presidencies, this kind of rhetoric. And then it's. And then that's when it's told to the members. So. And I found quite interesting that when I talk to my dad just a little bit about missions, what's going on, he's very open with me and talks to me pretty openly about what's going on down there in Mexico. He brought up this exact rhetoric that this Stake Presidency member talked about, which made me think that maybe this is not just, of course, an isolated event of leadership, talking about serving a mission in this kind of terms.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] Yeah. And a lot of the feedback, the pushback I got also was, hey, it's always been a requirement for young Mormon men to serve missions. So there's nothing new here. And on the one hand, I think that's true. On the other hand, I really do think in 2022, as of August 2022, we are seeing something unparalleled. And I think one of the main purposes of this presentation tonight today is to show the data behind why we think that we're hearing a new level of rhetoric that we've never heard or seen before. And I think it smacks, frankly, of desperation by the Mormon Church. And so that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today, right? Yeah, yeah. So with that, I think what we wanted to do was to begin by showing some statistics from the Mormon Church's own website. So if you go to, you know, whatever it is, churchofjesuschrist.org, facts and statistics, you can see these little charts at the bottom. Now, maybe these aren't brand new, these charts, maybe they've been out since April, since the most recent General Conference. But in the bottom left there, you see sort of this missionary program chart. You see temples on the right, bottom right, skyrocketing, but you see a pretty serious dip in the missionary program data. And so if we want to zoom in on that, you see this really significant drop where between 1960 and, let's just say 20, I don't know, 2005 or something, you see this significant almost linear growth upwards to peak around 80,000 worldwide missionaries. And I think that was probably just sort of drawing a straight line. Elder Holland maybe wasn't invoking his prophets here and revelator powers, but instead was just kind of drawing a straight line to say, hey, if trends continue, we're going to hit 100,000 missionaries soon. Right. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. And what you see is that between, let's just say 2000, 2004, 2005 and 2021, you see this incredible dip. And that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today is what's going on with this dip. And Gerardo and I, we crunched some more numbers and we came up with a little bit more data to help us understand what's going on. Gerardo, this was your slide. Do you want to explain what you were trying to show in this slide?

Analyzing Missionary Numbers Over Two Decades

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:46] Yeah. So I started looking at the numbers. I went through all the reports all the way back to 2003. I just wanted to see like an 18 year, you know, period. So basically this is like a zoom in of the church's chart. And what you're going to see here is on the table on the left. You have a year by year, you know, 2003, all the way up to 2021. And. And then the number of missionaries that there was on each year and then the number of missions. That was very interesting to me because, you know, the church, when a lot of.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Let me jump in. I was just. For those who are just listening, I'm gonna explain just a tiny bit more what the chart shows. So it shows from 2003 the number of missionaries being around 56,000, increasing to around 85,000 in 2014. So it's this really huge peak that peaks in 20 and then it starts declining down to 54,000 by 2021. So it's like 58,000. 2003 peaks at 85,000 by 2014 and then drips down to 54,000, which is lower than it was in 2003 by 2021. And then the second chart you have is just number of missions worldwide, and it starts at 337 in 2003 and it peaks at 400. Well, no, it peaks 421 missions by 2017, and then it dips a tiny bit down to around 405 to 407 missions by 2021. So in other words, missions generally are continuing to rise. Number of missions worldwide, but number of missionaries peaked and then has dropped significantly. Now, keep going with what you were going to say.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:36] Well, this just goes to show how bad they were predicting the number of missionaries that were actually going to be serving, which makes me question, you know, how much they know their members. And so they have an expectation of the missionaries. Missionary numbers keep rising or at least plateauing at some point, but I don't think they were expecting for the number of missionaries to dip so much to the point where we have less missionaries today than there were in 20, 23, and 50 or 60 more missions, total missions around the world than there were in 2003. So in 23, in 2003, we have less missions and more missionaries than right now. Right now we have more missions and a lot less missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Yeah. And you know, I don't want to be uncharitable or unkind to the First Presidency, the quorum of the 12, but let's just be honest. We're taught that they are prophets, seers, modern day prophet seers and revelators. Like unto Moses, like unto Daniel, like unto Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You know, am I wrong? Am I exaggerating on that, Jen, or is that what you were taught?

Jenn Kamp [00:14:53] Yeah, I was taught.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Yeah. And that's what we've all been taught. And we're taught that they're gonna, you know, that that's important and not just important, you know, to predict famine or, you know, wars or catastrophes, which would be nice, but they're not doing that. But you would think that at least they would able to know from God kind of how the church is doing and how it's going to be doing in the next five to 10 to 20 years. And we opened with Holland's prediction that we'd hit 100,000 missionaries. Not to sort of hit them below the belt, but just to say if, you know, not only are we not getting new scripture, we haven't really gotten Mormon scripture since Joseph Smith, other than repealing declarations and repealing doctrine, like taking polygamy away, giving blacks the priesthood when we shouldn't have taken away from them. Any of the scripture added since Joseph Smith has basically been taking away bad doctrine instead of adding new doctrine. But we're not getting doctrine, we're not getting revelations, and instead they're flat out wrong. And that's not to pile on. It's just a state of fact that the, the prophecy in the Mormon Church appears to be broken. Yeah, significantly broken. And it has been for over 100 years. But this is a really egregious, obvious example of how broken their ability as prophets really is. Am I being too mean?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:25] I agree. And I think I also wanted to show this chart because I think we're going to be talking about stories and anecdotes of people who had really bad experiences on the mission field with their mission presidents, with companions. This shows that today mission presidents should be on Top of every issue that a missionary should have because there's more mission precedents than there were ever before per missionary. So missionaries should be being taken care of a lot more than they're used to. But unfortunately that's probably not what we're seeing.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Yeah, the other thing I want to add is just that this is kind of a shell game because they don't. Yeah, they don't want to tell the membership that we're closing down missions everywhere and that the overall number of missions is declining. So they're kind of doing a statistical shell game where they're just having fewer missionaries per. And part of what's troubling about this number is as much as they're closing missions. You know, it seems like they're closing missions. I'm guessing that they would have been closing missions in Western Europe, in Eastern Europe or in Asia.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:42] Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] They closed and in Mexico and probably in Latin America to. Another part of the shell game is they've gotta be opening and creating missions in Africa as a way to offset the shrinking number of missions elsewhere. But the net effect is they're keeping relatively flat the number of miss missions. But, but, but they're hiding that by just having fewer number of missionaries per mission. And it's a bit of a statistical shell game, I think.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:10] I think, and I think the biggest reason is because members, like a common member just doesn't. Would not know the number of missionaries out there, but they will notice what part of what, what mission their, their word or stake is part of. So closing a mission would really show a member like, oh, what's going on? Why are we changing? Why are we merging with another mission?

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Yeah, yeah. Kind of boots on the ground. It would be troubling, right? Yeah. Jen, did you have anything you were wanting to add there?

Jenn Kamp [00:18:43] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [00:18:44] No, I'm good right now.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Okay. All right, let, let us know if there's any comments that you think are kind of worth worth shouting out.

Jenn Kamp [00:18:51] Yeah, definitely.

Membership Growth vs. Missionary Rates

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Okay. So. All right, so another chart that we put together that I think is really, really dramatic and telling what we did is we put the number of members and the number of missionaries for 2003 on the left hand side. And then we had the number of members and missionaries for 2021. And for those of you who are just listening, you're not going to be able to see how dramatic this chart is. But if you look at it, what it shows is a 40% increase in members between 2003 and 2021. So we've got 40% more members you know, than, than we did 18 years ago.

Guest [00:19:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] That's a big growth in members, right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] But it shows a 3% decline in number of missionaries.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] And then that's troubling enough. Why is it that we're not having a 40% increase in number of missionaries? That maps onto the 40% increase in membership growth. But then if you add to the fact that when Thomas S. Monson was prophet, he doubled, he effectively doubled the size of the missionary force by telling basically all worthy young women to serve, we should have seen even a doubling of the existing missionary force. So in my calculation, we should have seen that number grow by 80% or 90% or 100%. Right. Because we've got 40% more members. And then we doubled the missionary force by having women. But in spite of all of that,

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:34] and I just thought one more thing. You're also increasing the number of potential missionaries by increasing the age gap from 19 to 25 to 18 to 25. So there is like an increase on age gap and especially on women who went From, I think 21 to 19. So you're increasing significantly the age gap when a missionary can serve. So everything was prepared for the number of missionaries to dramatically increase. Yeah, over time.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] Yeah. And I, you know, I worked at Bain Company, a management consulting firm. And so I spent a lot of time crunching data and creating graphs. And I'm telling you, a chart like this, you know, if you're, if anyone's gonna screenshot one chart from this entire presentation and put it on Reddit, this is the chart to screenshot because that's deeply troubling. When you've got a 40% growth in membership and you double the missionary force and you've got a 3% decline in total number of missionaries, it's deeply troubling. So I guess we've made enough of that point. And this slide kind of summarizes it. 40% increase in membership and a 3% decline in full time missionaries, while doubling the pool of missionary candidates.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:46] Four million more members.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the church is in real trouble. The church is in deep trouble. So when, you know, this helps to inform the rhetoric that we're now seeing, because the brethren are really worried, because guess what? These trends are continuing. So if these trends continue the way that they have been, you know, if we go back to that chart that we just showed in, if that line continues to drop at the rate it's dropping between, let's just say 20, 14, 15 and the present, we're going to have half, half the missionaries that we have now. Not, not less so, not, not more so it's, it's kind of troubling. And again, this is just another chart. So, so we, we are very happy to report that we have some additional data to add to what the Church has released. So this is new data, but we're going to begin by sharing some data that you've already seen. You know, let's just say six months ago we did an episode called Is the Mormon Church in Decline? An insider's report. And in that, in that presentation, I shared some insider information that I received from a member of a stake High council, kind of in the Salt Lake County, Utah county kind of borderlands area. He shared insider data from his stake that he said paralleled data in his area, which included Utah county and Salt Lake County. And just to summarize the old data that we've already shared with you, he said that, you know, prior to, prior to Covid, you know, let's just say 20, 2018, 2019, there was sort of 84% meeting attendance amongst young men who are priesthood age. But that, but that, you know, by February, by, By February of 2022, it was down to 60%. So, you know, 24 percentage points lost in attendance of young men along the Wasatch front. So a deep, a steep drop in attendance of young men who are members of the church along the Wasatch front. That was troubling. He also said that young women attendance was also dropping from 88% to 63%. And of course, we have to allow for the fact that COVID 19, you know, could be impacting those numbers a little bit. But, but this was after the COVID restrictions had been removed. Yeah, so. So, you know, part of it, he was attributing to Covid, but part of it was just, you know, not wanting to come back. Yeah, yeah. Youth not wanting to come back after Covid. And I'm guessing that some of these trends began before, before COVID kind of came on the scene. But then there were some more troubling news reports that he gave us back then, which is of the men that were 18 to 25 who either are serving or had served a mission in 2016, 49% of the 18 to 25 year olds either had served or were serving missions. But by, but by earlier this year, it had dropped to 31%. So kind of in 18 percentage point decline in the number of young men that were, that had or were serving missions. And then he went on and we

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:32] have an Update on that number.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Yeah, we have an update. It gets worse. He. I also remember him saying that a third, only a third of the missionaries serving in his stake were young men. So two thirds of the missionaries serving from his stake were now young women and only a third were young men. And then only a third of the young men that should be serving missions were serving missions. So like, red, red bell, red light alert. Massive drop in young men willingness to serve missions along the Wasatch Front. That's what we reported back then. But now we, we checked in with our inside source who is still in a Stake High Council and he gave us an update and he said, John, back when we emailed previously, the numbers were, you know, men who are 18, ages 18 to 25, who are or had served missions. In 2016, it was 49%. Now it's 30. He gave us updated. He. Oh, he. That. That is an updated number. Right. So. No, no, no, that's, that's, that was the old data.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Okay. Now we have new data. He says males 18 to 25 who are serving or have served a mission. He said in 2017 it was 38% down from the 49% in 2016. He said now it's dropped down to 26% down from 31% just two quarters ago. That's a six point drop in terms of percentage points and a 16. A 16.1% total drop or decrease in just two quarters. So in just two quarters, the. There's been another 16% decrease, or full six. Six percentage point drop in the number of young men along the Wasatch Front being willing to serve missions and a 14 point percentage point decrease since 2016, or a 47% decrease overall since 2016. So basically, almost 50%. There's 15%, 50% less willingness of young men along the Wasatch Front to serve missions than just six years ago. Is that right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] Is that what you're understanding?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] And Gerardo, you've captured that again in a really beautiful graph. The number of young men along the Wasatch Front. If these data extrapolate to the entire Wasatch Front, you know, and only if the Church were open and transparent about its data would we know for sure. But, but we're seeing the number of young men who are choosing to serve missions drop from 49% to 38%. 49% in 2016 to 38% in 2017 to 31% in 2021 to now 26% in 2022.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:28] Well, but this. And this matches the church's graph, right, about missionaries in the field. So it's like, very steep decline.

Guest 3 [00:28:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] So basically there's something going on with the young Mormon men within Mormonism along the Wasatch Front, where they're dropping out of church and they're in mass deciding they don't want to serve missions anymore.

Jenn Kamp [00:28:50] Jen, they're asking what the Wasatch Front is.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] That's a great question. Thank you, Jen, and thank you. Thank you for our listeners. So. So Utah is kind of, you know, I15 is the highway that stretches from the southernmost tip of Utah, St. George area, all the way up through central Utah, through Utah county, which is where Provo and Orem is, which is where BYU is, all the way up through Salt Lake county, which is where Salt Lake City is. And then it goes up into Davis county and Weber Counties, and then eventually it goes up into Idaho. So I 15 kind of splits Utah up through the middle, and then there's a mountain range along the eastern sort of side of i15 that's called the Wasatch Mountain Range. So the. And most Mormons live between I15 and the Wasatch Mountain Range, starting from down in Utah county all the way up into Logan. So the Wasatch Front is kind of the area in Utah where most Utahns live and where the highest percentage of Utah Mormons live. Did I get that right? I'm asking Gerardo from Mexico. Did I get my Utah? Jen, you're from Utah. Did I get that right? Did that sound decently right?

Jenn Kamp [00:30:13] Yep. That's good.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] So Wasatch Front is just the mountain range and where the population resides. So, again, 26% of young men along the Wasatch Front are deciding to serve missions. Super troubling. And if we haven't put a fine point on it, 47% decrease in number of young men who are serving or have served missions since 2016. So in six years, you know, a 50% drop, in effect, of young men willing serve missions. We've really beat a dead horse now. What we also did is we did something we haven't always done before on Mormon stories. We went out to Instagram and Facebook and we said, hey, everyone. Hey, viewers. Hey, listeners. Can you share anecdotally what you're seeing on the ground? Because, again, the LDS Church won't come clean about its statistics other than the really significant ones that it shared for decades that it knew that it couldn't not share. It had to share the total number of missionaries or it would just be Way it had to share the number of missions and it had to share the number of missionaries or it would be too obvious that it was hiding and lying. It's statistics. But you know, what we don't have is more detailed information, except we have some anecdotal information. So here's some of the things that you are our wonderful viewers and listeners were willing to share through Instagram and through Facebook. Latter Day Change wrote, I have a family member in the stake presidency in South Utah county. And not only is missionary attendance down, but there's been a huge drop in seminary attendance as well. You could hear the panic in his voice when he told us that there is a huge push to get those numbers up. So we just shared that to show that it kind of goes. The problem is much bigger than just missions. It's starting with seminary and institute attendance. So that's down. Then we go to another comment that I received that says John, not sure, not sure if you've been alerted to this yet, but According to the BYU Idaho administrative administration, a friend of mine, BYU Idaho's enrollment projections for fall 2022 semester are around 17,000. Last fall enrollment was 22,000. Something's up. And my sense is this is just more evidence that the youth and their parents are turning elsewhere. Just thought I'd let you know what I heard. And Gerardo, you found an article from the East Idaho News this week. Do you want to say what that says? Basically, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:55] So just I can read it.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] Yeah, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:57] It says some Rexburg Apartments apartment owners say BYU Idaho student enrollment isn't high enough to keep apartments filled and money is being lost. A number of complexes are trying to convert their student housing into condos as a result. Because what happened at BYU Idaho was when I was leaving, the enrollments of BYU Idaho were going up and up and up. So a lot of investors went and started building apartment complexes, you know, a few years ago. So now there's way too many apartments. And since enrollment is trending down, they can't keep those apartments filled in. And according to BYU Idaho rules, no one else but BYU Idaho students can live in those apartments.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah. Yeah. And I think we should discuss what's going on there. I, I don't want to offend our, you know, you, Gerardo, or others who attended BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii or any of the other non BYU provost schools. But I see BYU Idaho is kind of a canary in the coal mine. And what I mean by that is we all know that the, the, the BYU with the highest academic reputation Is BYU Provo with, with it generally the best programs, the best experience overall in terms of student life and, and the best academics. And so if you took all the, all the Mormons, all the Mormon youth applying to the BYU's, generally speaking, most of them are going to wish that they could go to BYU or have BYU Provo as their first option. Jen, is that fair to say in your experience?

Jenn Kamp [00:34:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Generally speaking, as someone who's lived in Utah for a long time?

Jenn Kamp [00:34:39] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] And Gerardo, that doesn't offend you even though you attend to byu? I know that doesn't offend you, right? Would you have rather gone to BYU Provo over BYU Idaho? Okay, yeah. So I'm guessing the BYU provost enrollment is fine. But if BYU Idaho's enrollment projections are in sharp decline, what that means is overall interest in Mormon church sponsored university education is on the ropes. It's in decline. And I think it's worth, it's worth discussing what that might be. I mean obviously there's Gen Zers and Gen Xers and millennials who are, who are hemorrhaging out of the church. There's all these missionaries returning home early or having bad missions. There's all the LGBT homophobia and just, just all the strictness of BYU and the protests and the clampdowns. Like all of these things might be impacting the along with broader demographic trends overall. Gerardo, do you want to Alpine and then Jen, I'll ask you if you or Jen, if you or if any of our viewers want to share any of their theories as well, who are, who are sharing comments on YouTube and on Facebook. Gerardo, what's your guess?

Declining Church College Enrollment

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:49] Yeah, I would agree. Just the interest of people in the age to attend college as to go to I religious university is probably not as high as it used to be

John Dehlin [00:36:02] before COVID Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'd be fun. It'd be interesting to see if Utah Valley University is up, if Utah State University is up, right? If, if Southern Utah Utah Technical College, which was Dixie, if that's up, you know, University of Utah. It'd be interesting to see how enrollment is in Utah overall at none church schools. Jen, tell us if you have anything to add in terms of theorizing or if there are any interesting comments you're seeing.

Jenn Kamp [00:36:31] No, I think what a lot of them are saying, they were kind of saying it earlier in the chat and I kind of agree with them that just the generation that's going into college now just have more access to knowledge and are using critical thinking. With that knowledge now more than ever, I think within the church. And so they just don't want to be part of universities that discriminate or you know, in a religious setting anymore where they have to take religious classes, etc. Etc. I think they're just smart. They're just smart. They're just starting to get it, you know, and not to follow blindly. So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:16] Yeah. Well also I think in general the, the interest of gen zers to attend college is in, in decline. Right. Like there's some kind of apathy, broader trends. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Like Elon Musk can be a billionaire without going to college.

Guest 2 [00:37:29] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] To kind of thing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:30] Right. Which is a red flag for the church because byu, BYU schools have always been used as for as a tool to keep people active.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] Oh yeah, let's, let's, especially for our non Mormon listeners, let's just make it really clear. There's been this milestone track within the lived Mormon experience that the Mormon Church through survey research has identified as crucial to the maintenance of member fidelity and activity rates. And that is, you know, attend seminary when you're in high school to get the religious indoctrination or education, you know, immediately serve a mission. They reduce the missionary age for men from 1918 and women from 21 to 19. Thomas S. Monson did this around 2014, 2015, because they were already starting to lose so many young Mormon men and women between high school and you know, that first or second year of college before the mission, they were losing too many. So that it was an act of desperation to both lower the missionary ages to have less attrition, but also to tell all women they needed to start serving missions. Both of those were acts of desperation as they were kind of reading the tea leaves. But then the track always was. As you're getting near the end of your Mormon mission, your mission president sits you down and what does he tell you?

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:02] Gerardo, you gotta get married.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] How soon?

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:05] As soon as possible.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Yeah, get married as soon as possible and don't wait to have kids. And I would add, go to one of the BYU universities to find your mate because that's going to be your best. If you go home to Nebraska or if you go home to Mississippi or Florida, you're probably going to start dating non Mormons and you're going to have a hard time. You're not going to marry a Mormon and the Mormon Church knows that it's got a super higher chance of retaining its tithe paying membership. If you go on a mission, get married immediately, start having kids immediately, that is the best way to keep you as a tithe paying member for the rest of your life, that they kind of lock you in that way. And so if kids are no longer choosing byu, what are they going to do? They're going to go to local universities in Kansas or in Arkansas or tech schools, Texas or wherever, California. They're going to stay at the local schools where the institute programs are dying, right. Where they're going to date non Mormons and they're going to learn about get secular educations. They won't have the mandatory religious instruction and they're going to get secular educations and leave the church at even increasing rates. Anything you wanted to add, Jen, or did we, did we kind of COVID that?

Jenn Kamp [00:40:22] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [00:40:23] I think you covered it.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Does that sound right?

Jenn Kamp [00:40:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] Okay. All right, so, so that's why the BYU stuff in the BYU Idaho stuff is particularly distressing. Now let's actually go to the data around missions. Somebody wrote in, I saw you're doing a podcast on the decline of missionaries. My parents ward in Alpine. And just for those of you who don't know, Alpine, Alpine and Highland and Lehigh, Utah are right there in northern Utah County. And if you were going to kind of like pick the five most devout cities in all of Mormonism, right. It's going to be Provo, Orem, Rexburg, you know, maybe somewhere in Davis county and freaking that Alpine, Highland, Lehigh area. Jen, am I right or wrong? You're Utah.

Jenn Kamp [00:41:10] Yeah, no, that's right. I would say those five too.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] I mean Senator Mike Lee lives in, in, in Alpine. This is where like the most radical ultra right winged conservative Mormon politician alive today chooses to live, chooses to raise his kids. It's in Alpine, Utah. And this, this viewer wrote it and said my parents wore it in Alpine Fashion has 30 priests this year. Not a single one is going on a mission. They said, quote, they should have had better activities. I mean Alpine is where the wealthiest Mormons in Utah live other than like Park City or like Holiday where I, you know, where, where I live or like up in the Avenues, I could just tell you there's nowhere in the church with better youth activities than Alpine. Am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if Alpine can't keep it, get its young men on missions, there's a, there's a deep troubling problem. It goes on. So, so you know, that's just one of like a gazillion of these types of messages we received. But we're trying to not go forever on this, on this presentation. So how is the Church responding. And by the way, we've got 1,100 people tuned into this live stream. I just want to thank everyone for tuning in and I want to just ask everyone a favor, please. Right now, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe to our channel. We've had over a hundred percent growth on our YouTube channel. And the more subscribers and followers we have, the more YouTube is going to share these videos in its algorithm. So please like this video. Please subscribe to this video on YouTube. Subscribe to our channel on YouTube, follow us on Facebook and subscribe there. Of course, you can give us super, super chats if you want to donate financially to support Gerardo, to support Jen, to support me, to support our facilities, all our staff, we rely on your financial support. So thanks to everyone who's throwing a super chats. You can donate through the stars feature on Facebook. We really appreciate that that's another way to support us or to just become a monthly donor, but just liking us and subscribing to us and following us on social media and sharing these episodes. Right now, if you want to say, hey, everyone, there's a really important presentation on the decline of the Mormon missionary program, share it on your social media right now and let's see if we can get that number even higher. It's just going to help more and more people be made aware of these issues. So how is the Mormon Church responding? Gerardo, do you want to set up why we're sharing this Thomas S. Monson talk next in the presentation?

Historical Flashback: Pressure to Serve Missions

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:47] Yeah, this is basically we're going to do kind of like a flashback as to what happened, because something very similar to the situation the church is living right now happened around 2010, or they were living around 2010. And we're going to explain that. But the reason why I included this Thomas talk is because I was talking to my dad about the missionary program and what's going on in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] And again, your dad's a bishop right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:12] And he told me that this, he mentioned this talk from Thomas Monson which is circling around. Again, he talked about it in those terms. Basically what he means is it's being passed through area authorities or between state presidents. This is what they're sharing on trainings. This talk where President Monson in 2010 in general conference stood up and said, going on a mission, it's a priesthood duty and an obligation. So we're just going to play that clip.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] Yeah. So if I can repeat, tell me if I understood what you just said. That basically back around 2010 to 2014, the church was panicking about it losing missionaries. That's when it lowered the mission age and doubled the number of missionaries by encouraging women. During this time period is when Monson gave this talk. This talk is now being. We're showing it now, but it is being resurrected and shown in the church's training in. In August of 2022. It's being used to pressure Mormon mission, you know, young men specifically, is to pressure them to serve missions.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] And it's just the beginning of what we're going to be showing. So we'll show this talk. And just imagine right now, you're a young. You know, you're a young Mormon, raised it along the Wasatch front in Utah. You probably have read the CES letter. You probably know, you've probably read the gospel topics essays. You know, the church probably isn't what it claims to be. You're probably experiencing some sort of anxiety or depression from knowing that you're going to be, you know, disappoint your parents, your siblings. You're going to be a disappointment to your community if you choose not to serve a mission. You're. You're. You're simmering in that stew of fear and shame. And then, lo and behold, on the fifth Sunday in July of 2022, there's a. All hands on deck Sunday school, where every ward and branch in the entire church worldwide, and maybe I'm exaggerating, but I think it's kind of true, is going to be having a lesson on why all young Mormon men need to serve missions. And they're going to be watching this video. Is that overstating it, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:28] Well, this is not the video that was shared on the lesson. This is kind of like more underground.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:33] Kind of like not talked publicly about.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] So this is a part.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:37] This is not part of the lesson yet.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:39] We're gonna show them, Nelson.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Okay. Okay. So here's the first one.

Guest 3 [00:46:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Roll the tape. Let's see here. First, you young men of the Aaronic priesthood, and to you young men who are becoming elders, I repeat with prophets of long taught that every worthy, able young man should prepare to serve a mission. Missionary service is a priesthood duty, an obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much. What does it mean? What does the word obligation mean? Jen, what does the word obligation mean to you?

Jenn Kamp [00:47:22] It means that you're required to go.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Yeah. Does it mean if it feels right, if you pray about it and it feels good to you?

Jenn Kamp [00:47:29] No. It means you're obligated to go if you, if you can.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Yeah. And I guess in some sense this isn't new rhetoric, right Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:38] Yeah. Well, this is the first time that I can recall and can document where this, a word this strong was used in, in a general conference.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Right. And if we show, if we show some of the web pages on churchofjesuschrist.org we're seeing this rhetoric. So I'm showing us a screenshot of a webpage on ChurchOfJesusChrist.org where it says, why should I serve a mission? And it says, you know, missionary service is a priesthood duty and obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much. Young men, I admonish you to prepare for service as a mission, as a missionary. And I just want to say it just smacks of desperation. And you know, we've been fighting this battle, you know, allegedly in the pre existence. The whole battle of the war in heaven was around free agency. Right?

Jenn Kamp [00:48:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] What were you going to say, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [00:48:41] Well, that's what we were talking about it earlier in the comments with everybody, that the whole gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is built upon the story in the pre existence of Christ and Satan. And you know, Christ's plan is to have you come down to earth and have free agency and, and the agency to choose and be taught and learn lessons. And what was Satan's plan? Satan's plan was that you do what I say. Like, yeah, I'll make you come back because you'll do what I tell you to do.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] I'll oblige you to do what you should do.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:14] Right. I'll force you.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] You all have a choice.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:17] They're saying the church is now telling everyone Satan's plan. Yeah, like they're using Satan's plan instead of Christ's plan. So we are. Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:49:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] And just, just. It's a very personal two years, two years of your life. That's a huge commitment. And, and we're going to talk about this later. But it's not like the church pays you to be their, their sales reps. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Mormon missionaries pay 500amonth on average for the privilege to be the church's salesforce. So like, name me a Fortune 500 company in the world where you don't get. Not only do you not get paid to be a salesperson for that corporation, but you pay for the privilege of being that corporation's salesperson. That's how Mormon missions work. So given all of that and given how difficult it Is. And given the levels of depression and suicidality that have been reported worldwide and given the fact, and this was also data shared by the insider, that up to one third of Mormon missionaries are now coming home early. One third. Given the fact that a third. And it's so disruptive to your career, to your education, to your life, and then all the shame of coming home early, given all of that, isn't it something that you should pray about and ponder and just decide if it's right for you? Or is it something that should be framed to you as an obligation, as a duty with all this guilt, trippy language that we've been given so much and so we have to do it. We have to do it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:49] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:50:50] Yeah. And. Sorry, go ahead. And they know, like the leaders know, when they put it into those words of obligation and, you know, it's your duty, it's all these things that when they put it into those words, it becomes part of not only what's coming from their leaders, but also from the culture within the church. So then there's pressure from families and parents and, you know, loved ones and leaders in the church and all of this. That, again, puts another layer on top of it. That's the. The shame and the guilt and the, you know, everything, like you're not. You're not worthy or you're not a good member. A good member. If you are going to choose not to go like it, it becomes part of the culture, which is almost worse in some ways.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Yeah. And Jen, you. You're reminding me of how I started up front. We are playing at the end two of. Of the most disturbing audio visual clips I've ever shared on Mormon stories. And they're both brand new, never been. One is a talk given by Elder Holland that has surfaced. And then another one is a. Is a very personal voice memo that I received. We're sharing that at the end because we're going to end with the real consequences of this shame and pressure that is cultural, that. That. That derives from the church's rhetoric on this topic. So, Jen, thank you. That's a really important point. Did you want to add anything with that, Gerardo, or should we. Should we go to the. Okay. Okay. So there's. Oh, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:27] I can. Okay, do you want to go to the next slide and I can just explain. So right around that time, I mean, we're going to show to this word obligation and this quote was being repeated in general conference by other apostles. So. And. And the church started getting a bad rep. So they put out this article and it's still on the church's website and it's called why is there so much pressure on young men to go on missions? Isn't it a personal decision? And interestingly enough, they include the quote again and they try to frame it in a nicer way, but I don't

John Dehlin [00:53:02] know, it's kind of damage control.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:04] Yeah. But it's still disturbing. Like, I mean, if you want to. Do you. Should we read it?

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It says, you know, why is there so much pressure on young men to go on a mission? Isn't it a personal decision? And then it says the personal decision each young man must make is whether or not he will fulfill his priesthood duty to serve a mission. No, I just want to start. Jen, is there anything about that sentence that bothers you?

Jenn Kamp [00:53:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] What?

Jenn Kamp [00:53:28] Because they take away all of the choice right there. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:33] Well, they're saying like, you have the choice. Do you want to obey God or not?

Jenn Kamp [00:53:37] Yeah, exactly. Like if you're a believing member or even a questioning member, and with all the pressures around you and the culture pressures that just that one sentence, like, are you going to choose God or are you gonna choose Satan?

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:52] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:53:52] You know what I mean? Like what, what is that giving them a choice? No, it's not. It's. It's putting shame and guilt onto a youth that doesn't need it.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah, yeah. And the all the Holland clip we're gonna show later again is gonna reinforce that in such a disturbing way. Jen, I was actually going for something different as a woman. As a woman, what message does it send to young women to say young men really need to serve missions? I'm just curious if that. As a woman, like, I have my thoughts on what message that sends to young women, but do you have any thoughts on what message that sends to a young woman?

Women and the Optional Missionary Standard

Jenn Kamp [00:54:31] I think the same message it sends in every other part of the church, that we're not as important.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Right.

Jenn Kamp [00:54:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Yeah. It's like, hey, young men, this is why we think it's really important that you serve missions. I'm imagining what it's like to be sitting there as a 16, 17 year old young woman. Like, why are. Why are we forgotten yet again?

Jenn Kamp [00:54:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Is that fair or. I don't want to implant that or

Jenn Kamp [00:54:53] project that on you. I think that's fair. I think that's fair for a lot of women within the church. I think a lot of women are just used to the narrative and trying to live the narrative that they've been taught. And so it might not. It might not be. They might not be critical thinking about that at this point, you know, or. But it's definitely more and more relevant as the years go on here and more women are seeing what's happening.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] And that makes it all more bizarre that along the Wasatch front, we have stakes where two thirds of the missionaries are women, even though it's the men that are being told that they're the ones with the obligation. So that's. That's crazy sauce, but I know we digress.

Jenn Kamp [00:55:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] Okay, so we go on. This article continues. As President Thomas S. Monson has said, quote, every worthy, able young man should prepare to serve a mission. Missionary service is a priesthood duty and obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much. Young men, I admonish you to prepare for service as a missionary. And then it goes on to say, preparing for a mission is a part of a young man's Aaronic priesthood experience. It is his duty, and he should feel the appropriate weight of that duty. Of the weight. Why are you laughing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:07] Well, that's horrible. Like, this seems to be like, it was created to as, like, you know, damage control, trying to make it look good, trying to soften it, and it's just worse, you know? It's worse.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Yeah. Like, they're like, literally saying, we want you to feel pressure.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:23] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] Yeah. And in today's environment with. With the mental health, that just. The level. And this isn't a Mormon thing, the level of depression and anxiety and suicidality nationwide amongst America's youth, we don't know what's going on. But as someone who has a PhD in psychology, the levels of depression, anxiety, and suicide amongst youth and young adults is unheard of. So for the church to literally be saying, yep, we're this. We're amping up the pressure, and this is why feels irresponsible to me as someone, you know, who. Who is a mental health professional.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] You know.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:01] Yeah, yeah. And from. From comments that I think you might see later in the program like that people have posted. I'm not sure if we included it or not, but like their mission president, mom and dad, are saying that, like, 90 of the missionaries in their. In their mission see the therapist. Like, see while on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:25] So it's over.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] I saw a quote that said, over half of the missionaries currently serving enter into the mission with at least one diagnosis of anxiety or depression. Like, at least half. Over half.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:39] Yeah. So telling them, you can choose God or you can choose Satan. You Know, and that being the choice and the words that they're using. Well, I mean, maybe not using fully, but you know, what they mean is just so wrong. It's so damaging.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Yeah. And, and, and for them to admit that they're applying pressure is weird. Okay. It goes on to say, of course, he should not serve a mission simply because it is expected or because he feels pressure. He should serve because he desires to share the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with others. Why are you laughing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:16] Aren't they contradicting on like, on the same paragraph they have two contradicting sentences.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:22] He should feel the pressure or the weight of, of the duty. But then he shouldn't feel pressure.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] Right. He should do it for the right. He should do it for the right reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It goes on to say, but as he prays about serving a mission, he should also remember that by receiving the priesthood, he has already accepted the sacred responsibility to, quote, warn, expound, exhort and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ, including by serving a full time mission as a full time missionary. Now this takes me back to that conversation I had with Dan McClellan.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Because Dan McClellan, who's a great guy, was basically trying to make the argument that it's not church doctrine that you have to serve a mission. And that this rhetoric that comes from Nelson and Bednar talking about moral agency arriving at age 8, that Trump's free agency, you know, that that's not doctrine. This that I just read seems to be reflecting that line of reasoning. It basically is saying as soon as you receive the priesthood. And you know, for a Mormon boy. At what age is that, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:31] 12. 12 years old now 11.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Now 11. As soon as you receive the priesthood, you've already basically, I mean, it's basically saying you're already compelled to serve a mission. Did I read that wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:43] That's right. That's exactly what it says.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] Yeah. It says he has already accepted the sacred responsibility to warn, expound, exhort and teach and invite all to them under Christ. I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:54] Including by serving a full.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Including. I don't know how. That's not saying you've already made that choice. When you turned 11 and 12 young men, you made that choice. The choice has already been made. You made it. You're stuck with it. You're on the covenant path. Jen, looks like you want to say something.

Jenn Kamp [01:00:11] Well, does that, you know, 11 or 12 giving consent to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] You're a minor.

Jenn Kamp [01:00:18] Like you have no idea. You don't have no idea what that means, what that entails, what even. They don't even know the gospel by then, like, what they're going to be teaching. So it's just ridiculous.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] And they haven't even been taught the true church history yet. They haven't read the gospel topic essays. They didn't know about the polygamy, the polyandry, the peep stones, the stone of the hat, the book of Abraham. Like all the problems with the church in its history and its doctrine and its theology. You don't know that when you're 11 and 8, let alone 11 and 12, let alone an 8. So it's deeply problematic. And just to close this out, if young men are not able to serve because of poor health or a disability, they are honorably excused.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:59] But that's also bad because they're saying they're honorably excused, you know, so if you don't decide to not go and you don't have any of those problems, you're dishonorably dishonorable.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] So, like, like, so, for example, not. Not. Not having a confidence, not having a strong testimony, having doubts, serious doubts about the church.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Or just like feeling like it wouldn't be good for your mental health. That's kind of not there, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Or just feeling like it's. It's not. It's not your path. Just saying, you know what? It's not for me. It's not. You know, we know that Steve Young or, you know, BYU athletes oftentimes. Oh, oh, and by the way, it's not just BYU athletes. Right. Who else? Who else didn't serve missions? Do you want to tell us, Jenner? Gerardo? I mean, we've got a slide on this later.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:49] The whole first presidency.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Yeah. Yeah. Right, Jen? Right, Tom. Like currently. And we're going to show this slide down H. Oaks, you know, Henry Eyring and the prophet Russell and Nelson, none of them chose to serve missions. And yet somehow we're all, you know, all our youth today are obliged. It's. And if you don't, it's dishonorable unless you have a physical disability or poor health. Yeah. So anyway, I think we've kind of made that point. And then. Gerardo, tell us what this slide's about. It's just.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:25] Yeah, so that, that's just showing how that quote was shared in general conference several times, you know, by Anderson, by Nelson and a 70 Adele.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:36] 2011 and 2012. And if you go to the next one, that's where I was just going to show the next slide. Yeah, so that one just shows. So just this, a really quick history in 2002, Gordon Hinckley, he's still the prophet, and he says, we're going to raise the bar for people who are serving missions. And you can see immediately a decline from 2003 to 2004, a decline on missionaries after that. And then it starts going up, but then it plateaus by 26 and 2010, it's plateauing. And 2010 is right when Monson gives this talk saying it's an obligation. And then it gets repeated by Nelson Anderson and others in general conference. And you can see it starts increasing. Right. So kind of like what's happening right now? Right. The, the pressure starts increasing for young men. And then in 14, 13, the age change, that's what that huge peak is. And then right at 15, it starts dropping dramatically.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] I had, I had Kara reach out to me and ask about kind of that whole raising the bar. Did you talk about the raising the bar sort of moment that was back there at the beginning of the slide? Did you see?

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:50] Yeah, yeah, I mentioned.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So isn't that kind of ironic that all those missionaries that were declined the opportunity to serve missions in like the early 2000s because of raising the bar? They literally unraised the bar. Yeah. And made it easier to serve a mission and lowered the standards far below they'd probably ever been lowered before. Out of desperation.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:13] So they're just trying to, they're just, they're, they're just playing with stuff out of desperation, trying to figure out how to solve this crisis. And they're failing. They're failing. Right. And that's what this graph shows. Okay, so we've got some other leadership talks that have emerged. This first one is from Utah area President. This is just current Elder Kevin W. Pearson. This was May of May 25, 2022 in Bountiful. This is another example of super toxic, unhealthy rhetoric around Mormon missions that I guarantee you is not a one off. These are general authorities getting the marching orders from apostles and then training Stake Presidency members, Stake High councilmen, bishops, bishopric members and parents all across the church to pass this rhetoric on. You're not going to see it written down in general conference talks. You're not going to see it in, you know, press releases at Mormon Newsroom or LDS Church Newsroom or whatever it's called. But this is the rhetoric that is coming from the top church leadership and that is filtering down to our missionaries. Now, is that fair to say?

Leadership Pressure Tactics Toward Young Men

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:23] Totally. All right.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Here it is. Do not pray about whether or not you should go on a mission.

Guest 3 [01:05:29] Dumb question.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] When it's the commandment from a living prophet and it's your priesthood duty, that's a given. Now you can pray to have the courage, you can pray to have a confirmation of that in your life. But asking Heavenly Father, who's commanded his prophet to command you to go, whether or not you should go seems like not a very good thing to be asking God.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] And the reason why that's so troubling is we've got that scripture in Doctrine and Covenants that says whether by mine voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. And the way that in my experience in the Mormon Church is if a general authority is showing up at your local stake conference or area conference and is saying something, he's not just speaking for the prophet of the church, he's speaking for Jesus. Am I, am I overstating that, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:06:27] No, no, that's. And I think a lot of times that's how they start their talks, like I'm here by authority of the prophet, then the prophet speaks for God. And so I'm, I'm giving you his words. And they kind of go about it saying that in the beginning.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] And so, Jen, if we look at that photo of all those young men who are of missionary age sitting behind Elder Pearson, what's your sense for how likely it is that they are thinking that, that he's saying what Jesus wants. That basically when Pearson says don't even bother praying about serving a mission, you should just do it. What's the probability, Jen, in your mind that those prospective missionaries behind him believe it's, it's basically what Jesus wants them to do?

Jenn Kamp [01:07:14] I would say 100%.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gerardo, do you agree?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] Yeah. That's what makes this so pernicious and why people shouldn't write this off as just a one off or is a rogue kind of statement.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:28] For sure, for sure. Area presidencies are very, very well respected. They, like Jen says, they represent, literally represent the first presidency in the area. So it's a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Yeah, it's a huge deal. Okay. And so now we have a second slide as well. Gerardo, do you want to set up this one? Same. Same talk, same elder.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:52] Yeah, let's just play it.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] Okay, we'll play it. One thing we learned from Statistic years ago is if you take two young men, both can come from wonderful families, one decides to go on a mission, the other decides not to go on A mission. One thing we can tell about your posterity three generations out is this missionary. His posterity will account for 0.8 active tithe paying adult members of the church. Three generations out. You're like my age. The one who goes. His posterity accounts for somewhere between 18 and 20 active adult. Pain, tithe pain members of the church. 0.8 20. You get the picture. It's compellingly important. I'm so disturbed by that clip. I had not seen that before. But he's basically telling us why the church cares so much.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:56] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Anything you want to say, either of you?

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:00] It's interesting how they measure the members by tithing.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:06] That's what, that's what stood out to me too. I'm like you didn't say these members are going to be just like Jesus. You know, he's like these members will pay a full tithe and these ones won't like where's your. Where's your mind? There.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Yeah. Where your treasure. Where your treasure is there. Where your heart be also.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:25] And I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but literally when a, when Area 70 is going to go down to call a new stake president or bishop, literally the first thing they do when they arrive to the word or stake is they go and look at the records of tithing and who are the highest tithe payers and that's how they decide who they're going to start calling for interviews.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Yeah. And if you have any doubt about where the heart of the. And I'm not, I'm not trying to

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:49] say they just care about the money.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] I'm not trying to say that they don't care about the people. Right. Let's not go overboard here. From the first presidency to the Quorum of the twelve, they love the members. They believe it will be good for the members to serve missions and they want the best outcomes and the best health and the well being for the members. What I am saying is that this push, this push to compel and force missionary service is primarily motivated by money and a desperate fear around the decline of faithfulness and the exponentially increasing high rates of Mormon inactivity. Mormon teens, Mormon 20 somethings, Mormon Gen Zers and millennials are leaving the Mormon church in droves and just like they are in other churches and religions and the brethren are terrified and they're desperate and butts in seats. Missionary service and tithe paying members are the ways that they measure that. And so I don't think it's far off to say that that's a huge driver in what's behind this pressure, in this push. And the dude said it like, what else do we need?

Jenn Kamp [01:11:13] Yeah, that's what I was only repeating what he said.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:11:16] You know? Yeah, I wasn't. That wasn't my words so cringy, like,

John Dehlin [01:11:21] what was he thinking?

Jenn Kamp [01:11:24] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:24] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:11:25] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:27] So out of touch. I think it just shows how out of touch with the youth they really are.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:32] All these guys and why they're failing.

John Dehlin [01:11:34] Yeah. Yeah. And so we don't need to show this. This other clip again of. Of the Stake Presidency member who basically says that you no longer have a choice. You shouldn't pray about it. That, that, that. Yeah, that it's. It's no longer a choice. We've already shown that video, but it fits here because it's just basically the first presidency communicates with the quorum of the 12, which communicates with the general authorities and the area authorities, which then trains the stake presidencies and the bishops and all the trainees. And it's sort of the unwritten order of things that this pressure is going churchwide.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Is that fair to say? Do you think we've made a good case for that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:16] Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] And then something that I don't know, that I don't know if damn McClellan, Dan McClellan and others was foreseeing. But then we have drop in July, this kind of fifth Sunday school lesson. Now, Gerardo or Jen, do either of you know if this was like, planned list, fifth Sunday, Sunday thing, you know, so in the Mormon Church, I guess on the fifth Sunday of every month, the. The local ward and stake leaders have the option of bringing all the adults and youth together to do a special topic. And if they want to talk about pornography, they can. If they want to talk about temples, they can. I guess at some point it was decided that they were going to do a big push to pressure young Mormon men to serve missions. Do we know if this. What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:03] All around the world.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] All around the world on the same Sunday. Do we know how. How far. Maybe our viewers or listeners can comment in the chats and Jen, you can monitor that and let us know.

Jenn Kamp [01:13:13] Yeah, I know. I know on Reddit that I saw in other states. So I know.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Oh, it's definitely global.

Jenn Kamp [01:13:20] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] I just want to know how was this when was recently?

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:24] Usually because what I told you, John, usually the curriculum is passed months before the year starts. Yeah, that's what happens with. Come, follow me. The Manuals start coming out. I think the 2023 is already out right now.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:37] So putting together a. A lesson for. That's going to be shared worldwide is pretty significant. And you can show. To show us what the church cares right now and if they're, you know, desperate to share something. And what I found was that on the website on the July. If you put the slide up, I think I included it there.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] Which slide?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:06] There, there. So that's on the code. That one. That one, yeah. So at the bottom on the right, do you see it? Yeah, that's on the code of the website. Usually you can go and see when a web page has been published and it has the date and when it was published.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] So basically, what if.

Guest 3 [01:14:23] If.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] If our data gathering is right, it was May 26, 2022, when it was put onto the website, that the fifth Sunday, July 31, 2022, would be an emphasis on. On pressuring young men to serve missions.

Guest 3 [01:14:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] Is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:42] Yeah. And the. And another confirmation that we know that this date is. Is right. Is that all. Most of the quotes and most of the talks that they included was from the April General Conference.

John Dehlin [01:14:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:56] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:14:56] Oh, that makes sense. Now, Jen, you just shared a comment from a former bishopric member. Do you want to share what it said?

Jenn Kamp [01:15:04] He just said that the. When he was in the bishopric, that they planned the fifth Sundays months in advance.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Okay. So it's possible that this has been planned for months, if not years. But I guess I want to say it's theoretically possible. But Harada, you're saying no.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:18] No, because it includes, like, all the quotes and all the videos are from the April General Conference.

John Dehlin [01:15:23] Yeah.

Guest [01:15:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:24] And the website said it was out May. Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] Okay. So, I mean, someone show us if we're wrong. Show us we're wrong if we're wrong. Right now we're going with. This is relatively recent. And so, Gerardo, this is the fifth Sunday sharing the gospel lesson that dropped literally last Sunday. So it's August 4th today, and we're talking just five days ago, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:48] Yeah. Correct.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] Yeah. And do you want to. Just to give a super quick overview of what was in that lesson? Yeah, let's just do it quickly.

Gerardo Sumano [01:15:55] Yeah. And just. I want to say that this lesson was probably lived differently or people experienced it differently around the world. I think the general trend that we saw was a very harsh and very strong rhetoric around young men having the duty or the obligation to serve missions.

John Dehlin [01:16:13] Yeah. Because I went. Because I actually read through the actual Lesson. Yeah. And the text of the lesson didn't seem super hardcore.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:21] Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] It probably still has the obligation. All the. All the duty and obligation rhetoric that we talked about earlier in this episode, but it wasn't like you don't have free agency.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:32] Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] You know, it wasn't that rhetoric. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:34] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:35] And we're going to share some quotes of some people, some messages of the real how they lived it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:40] Okay.

Guest [01:16:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] So anything else? Oh, so what's this next video?

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:45] That's the first video included in the lesson.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] Okay. Is it worth playing?

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] Okay, so we're going to play the video that accompanies the lesson that was shared five days ago. Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:56] Okay, here it is. Today, I reaffirm strongly that the Lord has asked every. Every worthy, able young man to prepare for and serve a mission for Latter Day Saint young men. Missionary service is a priesthood responsibility. You young men have been reserved for this time when the promised gathering of Israel is taking place. As you serve missions, you play a pivotal role in this un. Unprecedented event. For you young and able sisters, a mission is also a powerful but optional opportunity. We love sister missionaries and welcome them wholeheartedly. What they contribute in this work is magnificent. Pray to know if the Lord would have you serve a mission, and the Holy Ghost will respond to your heart and mind. Dear young friends, you are each vital to the Lord. He has held you in reserve until now to help gather Israel. Now, a couple things really jump out at me. One is that this is the current prophets here in Revelator. So obviously you're showing this to the young men and young women. It's basically, you know, if anyone speaks directly for God himself, Mormons are taught that Nelson speaks to and for God. So I mean, that's noteworthy, that when they deliver this message, they're. They're using Nelson as the mouthpiece. Right. Which means God. God is saying, serve a mission. Right. The other thing that jumped out at me, a second thing that jumped out at me was that language around praying. At first I thought, whoa, he's saying to go ahead and pray about it. But then. Gerardo, you made an interesting point.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:00] Yeah. He made a hu. A big distinction. So it's almost like his paragraph or whatever he was reading was divided in two. He says to young man, it's a priesthood responsibility. Then stops and says, for women, it's an optional. It's optional. So what does it mean for young men? It's not optional for you.

John Dehlin [01:19:20] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:21] And then. And then he says, for young women, your. Your Your contributions are. Are welcome and pray if you. If you should serve.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Which, which I guess there's an implication though, that men don't need to pray.

Guest 3 [01:19:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] And because he didn't tell men to pray about it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] Is that right?

Jenn Kamp [01:19:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:37] Jen, I'm also just wondering how you. You were kind of smiling during. When he was talking to the women. Did you have a reaction to his comments to the women? Good.

Guest 3 [01:19:46] Good.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Better and different.

Jenn Kamp [01:19:47] Well, it's just the same as always. But I was, I was kind of picking up on what Gerardo picked up too, that he was giving the option to the women, which then tells the men they don't have an option and also tells the women that it doesn't matter. Like it's. They're. They're not as important in the, in serving.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] Yeah. Is that like he doesn't say why it's optional for women? But, but I, you know, but in

Jenn Kamp [01:20:15] the culture and the church, we know why it's optional.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Why is that? Why is it. Tell our world, tell our listeners why it's optional for women.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:21] Yeah. For women in the church and in the culture, it's. They want you to get married redhead high school and have babies and re. Repopulate the earth with Mormons. Mormon. Yeah, Mormon babies. And bring them up in the church. So if they want the women's responsibility to be looking to get married first out of high school, not go on a mission. And that's why it's 19 instead of

John Dehlin [01:20:49] 18, they're hoping that the girl gets hitched during that 18th year. How old are you when you got married, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:20:55] 18.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Yeah. Yeah, I know. Carol was 19. Like it's just so common for like we've.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:02] You got married to a return missionary, right?

John Dehlin [01:21:04] No, she didn't. But. But it's super common for girls, Mormon girls to be taught. Yeah. Education maybe, but get married.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:15] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] As young as possible. Yeah, that. Right, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:21:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] We'll cover that more when we do your story on Mormon stories.

Jenn Kamp [01:21:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Did you have a quick comment, Herodo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:24] No.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Okay. Yeah. So. So that's, that's interesting. Now we also gathered comments from. For how these messages were actually delivered in various wards and we have way more than we can share today. We're just going to share just like a couple examples of how this was received, but the general consensus was that it's an obligation and I'll just share the first one. This is from the ex Mormon Reddit stake president told the young men it is obligated and as if the choice isn't Theirs, if they're in the church, they will serve. And then he goes on to write, this is Fingaz 70, we are in Colorado. Wish I could have recorded it. I'm paraphrasing. It was something like quote young men, it is your obligation to serve a mission. I know that make make some of you uncomfortable to hear it. He also told the young women they were highly encouraged. So that's one example. Here's some others. Another viewer wrote, my ward had the same 5th Sunday message. It was taught that for boys a mission is not optional. My friend in the stake presidency got her.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:34] So whoever taught it caught what Nelson was implying by saying that for women was optional.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] Yeah. Or there's other local stake or regional training. Right. That made that point exactly. Off, off script, off off formal textual press release sort of back culture kind of stuff. My friend in the state presidency still says it's always a choice. I'm trying to understand how it can be both a choice and not optional. Best I can come up with is that it's a sin to not go on a mission. But you can always choose to sin as part of your agency. You know, we can go on and read more of these. Are either of these two worth reading?

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:16] This is just a letter from the. From a word. You know, telling members to prepare for this fifth Sunday lesson and just asking them to just answer some questionnaires.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Rochester second Ward.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:29] Yeah, we can go next to the next one.

John Dehlin [01:23:32] Okay. So the next anecdotally. Oh, and this is from my source. So my. This is a member of a current Stake High Council. Right. A Stake High Councilman along the Wasatch front, currently serving in his position. This is. This was his reaction to the fifth Sunday training he wrote. The fifth Sunday lesson last week caused some frustration among some wards. It's pretty direct about reiterating the commandment for young men to serve missions. One family who had a son go on a mission and come home early felt it was offensive and left the lesson early. Another member of a bishopric told me he felt like the lesson seemed desperate. So that's a member of a bishopric telling a member of a Stake High Council that the training seemed desperate. And I'll even say that I tagged Dan McClellan in Instagram and said, hey Dan, you know how you said that it was just kind of sparse and, and non doctrinal and maybe an isolated bit of rhetoric like it's looking pretty church wide to me, respectfully. And Dan McClellan said that he got this lesson himself and that he and others openly Objected to the tone and the rhetoric. If I'm remembering right in his own church experience. So like even Dan McClellan said, yeah, we got this too. And I felt like I had to be a conscientious objector. Now that's my memory of Dan's words. Dan loves accuracy, which I, which I respect. And so, you know, don't quote me on that. But that's the sense I got from what Dan said.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:12] Commented.

Jenn Kamp [01:25:13] I'm just so. Am I the only one commenters, Am I the only one that's so tired of hearing it's not doctrinal. I don't care. I don't care anymore. Like, I'm so sick of men in leadership positions saying that within the church. I don't care if it's a doctrinal. What you're teaching, what you're saying out of your mouth. That is coming from God was always taught to us that that means you do it. That's doctrine. If it comes from the prophet, it is doctrine. So I'm so sick of them saying, oh well, you can't find it in the exact saying of that exactly in the scripture, like saying word for word what it says. Like, I'm done with it. Like it is doctrine. It came from the prophet, he said it. That's what's implied. That's what they're shamed for and degraded for and belittled for. So I'm done with you saying apologists. I'm done with you saying that's not doctrine. Because it is.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Yeah, well, it is.

Jenn Kamp [01:26:08] I'm done.

John Dehlin [01:26:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:09] We also know from an insider.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] Amen. Amen, Jen.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:12] Amen for sure. And just to your point, Jen, we know from insider just recently an interview that was released on Mormon discussions under the Mormon discussions umbrella.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] So yeah, the Remy up to Ruminations podcast, which I just spent the morning talking to the, the host he interviews in a three part series, a former insider who did survey research for the church. Do you want to tell?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:36] Yeah. Well, he says that among the leadership of the church and there's no consensus on what the definition of doctrine is.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Yep. There's a general acknowledgment at church headquarters that nobody knows what, what official doctrine really is or how to arrive at what it is. Yeah, they don't, they don't even know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:55] That's why there's not a gospel topic essay that's called what doc? What's doctrine?

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:00] Because there's no consensus.

John Dehlin [01:27:02] Yeah. Yeah. And Jen, we'll make sure to include in the show notes the link to the Rami Umta ruminations episodes that, that talk about this because it's really revealing. Yeah, Jen, to answer your question, the brethren don't know what doctrine is. They know that the scriptures say, but the scriptures contradict themselves. And then there's DNC 132, you know, like it's just so, like so in the lived experience of that 17 or 18 year old boy or girl sitting there listening to the prophet talk, listening to Bednar or you know, or, or these general authorities that come locally or even their stake presidents or bishops. It's the priesthood leadership, whether by my voice, meaning God or Jesus or the voice of my servants. It is the same in the lived experience of our Mormon youth. You're right, Jen. It's doctrine.

Jenn Kamp [01:27:54] Yeah, it is. It is.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Yeah. Well, a couple more comments. There was, there was somebody who said, yeah, we had that same lesson today. I asked if they felt like it was coercive. Their response was, oh, 100%. It felt like a sales pitch. So bad even for my believing husband. So even believers like Dan McClellan and others, stake presidency members, bishopric members, are saying this feels wrong. Like the brethren are now starting to alienate their own leadership with this, with this awful rhetoric. Another comment. John, thank you for your continued attention on Facebook to this required missionary service for young men issue. My youngest son is still trying to stay adjacent to the church. And even though he has not chosen, even though he has chosen not to go on a mission, and this rhetoric from yesterday's coordinated 5th Sunday lesson is hurting him a lot. He is feeling so worthless at church and already othered by the ysas in his ward. So basically for those depressed and anxious youth that are already questioning their faith, that are already on the borderline, this is just adding more insult to injury where these youth are just feeling more marginalized, more unloved and more wanted. The church is hurting itself. It's poking itself in the eye. It is stop harming yourself, Mormon church. You're doing it. And if you don't have the internal research to tell you this, we're telling you this because we're tuning into your membership. And by the way, your viewers, your, your active believing members are listening and watch, listening to and watching Mormon stories. Okay, so Gerardo, you prepared an entire section that I think we want to try and cover relatively quickly because we've got these two explosive audio video excerpts that we're going to share at the end. But, but you did some really important work kind of showing on the ground, specifically in Mexico. What, what Is. Is being shown. So do you want to set this up and take us through it really quick?

The Church's Coordinated Recruitment Campaign in Mexico

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:59] Yeah. So I found out that this activity was going on in Mexico, all around Mexico. It's being called like a multi stake regional event that coordinated everything by the area presidency. Like which I said again, the area presidency in Mexico. They are literally seen as the literal representatives of the first presidency. And like everything in Mexico, whatever dealings with bishops, stake presidents, everything goes through the area presidency. So that's how important they are, at least in Mexico. And so there's this activity being held and it happened just last Saturday in my city and. No, Merida.

John Dehlin [01:30:46] Merida, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:47] And just doing some research, I found the presentation of kind of like the presentation that is given to bishops and stake presidents, kind of like to show them what this activity is about and how it's going to be held and what's going to happen in it.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] And really quickly, just for our non Mormons for a long, long time, the church at efy, or especially for youth, think of it as like this super spiritual slash charismatic rhetorical summer youth camp for Mormon youth. It used to be called efy. Recently the church bought the whole program, brought it in, rebranded it as FSY or for the Strength of the Youth. And it's just like a, a summer spiritual revival youth Christian camp. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:38] You know, and it's happening now in the US And Canada in the summer. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:42] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:42] So Mexico, Mexico was the pilot program for this several years ago. I was the first one, one of the first ones that experienced it when I was youth there. The church, you know, buying the license from BYU and, and putting it in other countries. They started with it in Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:31:58] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:59] But this is kind of like a, like a separate fsy. They're calling it the F Missionary Focus FSY and it's a one day event. So if you go to the objective, I think it's the first slide. Right? Is that. No, that's maybe. Did we get, get, get it wrong? Should say focus. Is it the objective?

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Okay, here we go.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:27] All right. Oh yeah. All right. So that's the. It just this is again, this is the presentation, the PowerPoint that is being shown to bishops and stake presidents. And it just says the objective is to help the youth of the church prepare to faithfully serve missions. This goal is accomplished through the emphasis, direction and guidance of the priesthood leaders and by making beneficial use of church resources for the spiritual, spiritual, physical and temporal preparation of the youth.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] So this is youth training in Mexico.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:58] This is bishop and stake president training.

John Dehlin [01:33:00] Okay. It's bishop and stake president training to train church leaders on how to really push Mormon youth in Mexico on missions through this activity.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] Okay. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] All right, so what do we got here?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:12] Let's see. All right, so this is what the people that participate, priesthood leaders. It says area presidency, area 70s, stake presidents and bishops. The FSY people missionaries are supposed to attend. Mission president is supposed to attend to this regional activity or multi stake activity. And the missionaries employees, the CS director is supposed to attend, self sufficiency manager and physical facility manager. Then it calls for volunteers and it gives the number of volunteers that are supposed to attend this activity. There's 37 medical staff, 10 doctors, 10 dentists, psychologists, nurses, paramedics, optometrists and then support staff. And basically what they're going to do in this one day is bishops are supposed to bring all the youth that are on age to serve missions and then they're going to have them fill out their paperwork, open their folders and fill out their paperwork. While on the activity, they encourage them to bring other missionaries who are already sorry otherwise, youth who already know that they want to serve and who probably already submitted their papers to kind of peer pressure, the ones that are undecisive. And they're going to have the indecisive youth kind of peer pressure them into filling out their papers, having the doctors there, the dentist. So everything is done or as much as possible in this one day event. And this is being held since 2021 and again it's still happening. It happened just last week. If you go to the next slide, John, let's see what's their key actions for priesthood leaders. I don't see it.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Let's see. Oh, it's not. Oh, there you go. Okay, sorry. Sorry about that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:04] All right, so this is again telling what bishops are supposed to do. What are we going to be the bishops and stake president's responsibilities. And we're going to drop the link to this presentation in the comments. Going to be in Spanish, but if anyone wanted to check, it actually is being hosted in the church's official website. Anyway, so it says the bishop is responsible to review the list of potential young men and women, visit each youth and challenge them to prepare for missionary service. Ensure each youth attends to the regional FSY mission focused event and report the progress for each young man to the stake president. And the stake president is supposed to promote youth participation in the regional FSY missional focus event, follow up with bishops on missional challenges and risk rescue efforts and coordinate the logistics of transportation and food. And then if you go to the next slide, John. All right, all right. And this is the last one. It says follow up ideas for the bishop. And it's just training bishops on how to up their numbers of youth serving missions. So what they're supposed to do during a year is obtain a list of the youth with the potential to serve. And they're calling this Identify. Sorry, John, I'm seeing a meme.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] Okay, go ahead. Yeah, sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:33] All right. Review the list and set personal goals to rescue them. Then there's another section called the rescue. And the bishop is supposed to visit them at their house, earn their trust, help them in forms of their worthiness. And then they're supposed to challenge them, interview them frequently, check their personal, family, academic, work situation so they can serve, help them gain the desire to serve, and extend the invitation or the challenge to serve a mission. And then later they're supposed, you know, to prepare, provide and service. And then they're supposed to take them to this event. And if that were not enough, I got a link to the video. And this video is not public, so you have to have the link to watch this. And we're just going to play a section and I'm going to narrate what's

John Dehlin [01:37:28] going on and are we turning. So what I heard so far is this massive program to just really almost like cattle, to like, steer all the kids into this kind of cattle gate so that they're. I don't want to use a slaughterhouse kind of analogy, but it's basically ushering all the youth into a gate where there's doctors and dentists and psychologists and teachers and leaders and family members and missionaries and church employees all holding these big events to prep and. And place, pressure people to serve missions because they're choosing not to. Like, I didn't need this. I didn't. When I, you know, I served a mission in 1988, like, I did a missionary weekend. But I just, like, I knew when I turned 19, I was going to go for a year on my mission. I was going to go for a year by you and then go on a mission. I didn't need some special massive events.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:28] No, right. What I heard, what I hear is this unprecedented. Like, no one has seen this kind of effort in Mexico being so harsh.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] Yeah, we're saying we're going to say something, Jen, before we show the video.

Jenn Kamp [01:38:39] No.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] Okay.

Jenn Kamp [01:38:40] Just kind of what her auto was just saying.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] Okay. All right, so let's go. So this video tell. So it's basically going to be you know, is this a marketing video? Is this a.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:51] This is a marketing video that is shown to the bishops and stake presidents. It's not supposed to be shared publicly. It's not out there. It's just to convince, you know, the stake president, the bishops that this is a good idea, that they should bring as much youth as they can to this event.

John Dehlin [01:39:06] All right, so let's go ahead and roll the video. Should Jen turn the sound down or she keep it up?

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:10] Yeah, you can turn it down and I'm just going to narrate it for the people that are just listening.

John Dehlin [01:39:14] Okay,

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:16] so let's say. There we go. So the youth again just arrive to the program and they start, you know, taking out the papers and start filling them out, you know, their names and all their information. Then, you know, like, you have youth there that looks like they don't want to be there, but their peer pressure with everyone else who are dressed with shirt and white shirts and ties to, you know, keep going. With what, with what everyone else is doing.

John Dehlin [01:39:49] They had an eye exam. They're checking for lice. Oh, they're checking for hair length.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:52] Yeah, for hair length. So they're going to have actual, like people to cut their hair. And so they cut everyone's hair.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] They're showing a missionary getting his hair cut.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:03] No, he, he's a, he's still a huge perspective. Yes. No, no. Yeah, perspective. So they're. So he's ready for the picture, you know, because they need to send a picture with their papers. So they cut their hair so they can take the picture right there.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:16] You know, and the, the person that told me about this activity was telling me that a lot of you don't want to cut their hair right there, but they're peer pressured to do it and, you know, they don't have any out. I mean, how do you say I'm out? You know, like they were, some of them, they were transported to this event through buses. How do they just leave? They can't just leave. And so, yeah, we have them taking photos. Taking photos. They have shirt, white shirts there and ties. So they can take their photo right there and get pretty much all their missionary application done in one day.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] Yeah, yeah. So how does that, how does that feel for you? Like being from Mexico, seeing the full court press that they're doing on young Mexican Mormon youth. How does that make you feel?

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:59] It feels yucky. I mean, when I, when the person that was telling me about it was narrating it to me as just, I mean, he. There's still like a full believing member. So excited about it. I was like, this sounds so awful. And then I found that later that there's a video and a presentation. I was like, okay, this is kind of shocking.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] Yeah. And I was, I was trying to find a meme. I'll just admit I was trying to find a meme that kind of captured, you know, what's going on. And there's this. There's this scene from Star wars where I guess Darth Vader is kind of really misbehaving. And. And basically Princess Leah says the more you tighten your grip, the more people will slip through your fingers. It really, it really kind of does smack of desperation to me. And I just. I have to wonder whether it's going to backfire.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:49] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah. In other words, not just not solve the problem, but make it worse.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:57] What made it feel more yucky is that a missionary who was serving from my word, who I grew up. I mean, I was his seminary teacher when I came back from my mission, he was, you know, in young man's. And now he was serving as a missionary. He passed away on his mission just literally a couple weeks ago. And knowing that the youth on my city were just being pressured to fill out their papers go, you know, without considering that someone just died literally from where they're from or their word live in or the state they're living.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] So we're showing on the screen right now, missionary dies in Mexico, bicycle accident. That's an article. June 18, 2022. Are you saying that's a kid from your home state?

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:46] From my word, yeah. My dad is his bishop.

John Dehlin [01:42:49] Oh, wow.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] So a kid from your home ward has died on his mission?

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:54] Yeah, my dad sent him on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Wow. And that, I mean, my, my freshman roommate at BYU, Monty McCotter, died on his mission like what, 10? I guess that's what that article says. There's a Salt Lake Tribune article that says Latter Day Saint missionary deaths reach 11 for the year as proselytizer dies in Africa. That's just the ones we know about. If there are deaths by suicide, I'm guessing we don't hear about those. And we're going to be talking about that in just a few minutes, so please don't go away. We've got two super shocking audio video clips we're about to show. But yeah, Gerardo, that, that, that sort of shows how serious the stakes are. And that's just the most dramatic. There's all the, you know, if a third of Mormon Missionaries are coming home early. Whether it's physically getting, you know, starved, you know, malnutrition, physical harm, depression, anxiety, self harm, whatever the reasons are suicidality. We now know, according to insider reports, that up to a third of all Mormon missionaries are coming home early. That just. That this, that makes this pressure not just counterproductive, not just outrageous, it makes it egregious, it makes it horrific, it makes it grossly irresponsible.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] Am I overstating it? I don't know.

Jenn Kamp [01:44:23] No, you're not. And the, in that video, like the part that hit me was when the young man was sitting in the chair and they were pulling up his hair and like looking at the length of it and like his face in that moment, all of a sudden you see like it. Yeah, it hits and it like drains out of him, was how I feel when I'm looking at him in that situation. And I just, I can only think about, like the peer pressure in that room of what that would feel like to do that, to like follow through the little sequence that they have all set up for everybody there, you know, and how many of them really knew what they were getting into when they arrived there.

John Dehlin [01:45:08] Yeah, so it's super coercive. It's super coercive and harmful. And this coercion was, you know, is reflected in other comments. So other comments we've received. One person wrote, my bishop has texted me five times after I told him no. He keeps asking to meet with me. This is a young missionary age, Mormon youth. He says, despite the no, it ignored five texts. It doesn't stop him to try and get me on a mission. Another one writes, my patriarchal blessing said I would go on a mission. So my dad hung that over my head and for years about how my life would not go the way it was supposed to if I didn't serve a mission. I knew I didn't want to serve, but I felt like I had to or else the other things in my patriarchal blessing about having a husband, family wouldn't happen. So much unnecessary stress and anxiety. Another female viewer writes, my husband and I met on our missions and we both served during the height of the age change. So just in the past few years, neither of us felt we had any choice. When the announcement came, it was expected of him to go as soon as possible and I was told I wasn't dateable in Provo unless I went. We both were in leadership most our missions and it was chaos. My trainer trained me. After being out six weeks, we were told we were finishing Joseph Smith's mission and the rules in ours were strict. I cleaned out a meth lab in my skirts, so, you know, that's the type of pressure that our youth are experiencing. And then we've got an entire slide dedicated to the high stakes of serving some of these. Just say things like, I came home from my mission really anorexic and depressed because I isolated from my friends and family for 1.5 years. Another one said, the last thing my father said to my brother before going on the plane to his mission was, quote, don't come home early. Close quote. It caused him massive amounts of pain and made it extremely hard to listen to himself when he felt he needed to come home. Another wrote, I came home from Brazil after a couple months. Sao Paulo MTC was like an inside infectious disease ward. And once I was out in the field, there was a million reasons to leave. I, I have family members that were were held up by gunpoint in Brazil. Like many of these missions, we've done a couple Mormon Stories episodes where where sister missionaries were sexually assaulted and or raped on their missions. We'll include links to those in the show notes. But that happens.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:46] I was held at gunpoint on my mission twice.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Twice. My mission president twice had a gun pointed in his chest. This is super dangerous. Many of these developing countries, Philippines, Latin America, Africa, of all places, diseases, accidents are armed robberies and assaults and murders like they all happen. Not to mention unsafe living conditions and physical health problems. Yeah. And he wrote, I was convinced my mission was a necessary step in becoming a better person, but it was a horrible mess in far too many ways. So what we wanted to do as we were wrapping up and please don't go away because the most powerful two videos are just a few minutes around the corner. I thought it was important for us to share and summarize our concerns again using many of your quotes that you shared in Instagram or Facebook. So here's kind of a summary that's going to end with the most shocking parts of all of this entire presentation. So number one concern we have is that none of the current LDS Church First Presidency served missions. I mean, is that just shocking, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:48:57] Like, yeah, yeah. I don't know if.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] If everyone knows that it's shocking hypocrisy that these men who are presuming, who are pressuring, vulnerable, mentally unstable, physically unhealthy Mormon youth, these men who are doing all that are, did not choose to serve themselves. I know Henry Eyring went to Harvard. You know, Russell Nelson had An illustrious medical career. Dallin H. Oaks, you know, had an illustrious law career, although none of those fetchers serve missions. So this is just the height of hypocrisy. Am I overstating that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] The second thing that we've already stated is that Mormon missionaries aren't paid to serve missions. They pay to serve missions. So these dudes and these women and men are served and non binary people are paying $500 a month or $12,000 over a two year time period for the privilege of serving an LDS mission. So in many instances they're paying for trauma and they're, they're paying for their own trauma and abuse. And, and by the way, oftentimes if they choose to come home early, the church tries to get out of paying for their airfare home and they try and send the bill of the airfare home to the families because the Church doesn't like to pay the airfare home of missionaries who choose to come home early, which is also awful and egregious. We also are concerned that Mormon missionaries are not operating under full informed consent. They are not taught fully accurate church history prior to deciding whether to serve. That's an ongoing problem in spite of the inoculation that the Church is trying to do. And then it's incredibly egregious that the Mormon Church has $150 billion in stock and bonds and cash and real estate reserves that we know of, hundreds of billions of dollars in assets, and yet it's not even willing, you know, to, to pay these missionaries to serve.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:59] Not just don't pay them, just cover their costs like they.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Yeah, we cover their precedents. Yeah. Why can't the Church with its hundreds of billions of dollars, cover the costs of these missionaries, not put it on the poor, lower ses, you know, socially economic status, families in the church, put it to the local wards and branches and stakes to make them pay. And then when you add to that just the, the egregious reports of unsanitary and unsafe living conditions, the fact that the Church sits on hundreds of billions of dollars and does it make it so every missionary has the nutrition, the medical care, the mental health care and the just safety that it needs, it's just, it's just outrageous that it's sitting on all that money. And then when you add to it the, the increased social pressure to serve missions, it's just, it's outrageous. And then we've had all these reports flooding in of incompetent mission presidents. I had one person write in, I had an Insane mission. I went from living my dream as a touring musician. Our band was the first to get a million downloads on the Internet to being abused by my mission president in Peru. I went because my parents withheld love and basically forced me to get out there. The mission president was laundering money and I was right in the middle of it as a finance, as a financial secretary. The church had me collecting, collect evidence for a council but they did absolutely nothing with him and gas lit me the whole time. It's just now, I'm just now processing all of this. It is unreal. Another writes, I, I had two missionaries out.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:37] Both missions by the way for people, for people who say that this is not unlikely and this is a strong, I know this is a strong accusation but when I was there bringing as an apartment I knew that the area President, the Area 70 President was in bad financial dealings using the church's money how he was not supposed to.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:04] And he's still, he's still a general authority.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Yeah, that should be its own episode. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. I had a, I had a, a missionary companion pull a gun and threaten to kill me with a gun on my mission. Like there are all sorts of, there are all sorts of. I had companions die on their mission. Like, like there are all sorts of really outrageous examples that are very, very common. But this parent writes they had two missionaries out. Both missions were abusive from using humanity. Humiliation as a motivation to guilt being a driving factor. One son was told to fast for dinner if he didn't have enough contacts for the day. He came home mentally exhausted and 20 pounds underweight. Missions ruined our family's perspective on the church and its teachings and sent me into a full on faith crisis. And honestly there are just way too many, there are way too many of these stories to even report on today. But I can just go through it. Inadequate or unethical mental health resources. There are all these stories about mission presidents that wouldn't let their elders or sisters see proper mental health professionals. Or if they did, it was church supplied mental health professionals that basically just said have faith, follow Jesus and be obedient. Don't, don't, don't leave your mission. So they're not getting adequate mental health support on their missions. Missionaries are unfit to serve. The reports of missionaries who just have no business being on missions because they lowered the bar are outrageous. I'm not going to take the time to read those here, but you can pause the videos. I'll just put them up on the screen and you can feel free to pause the videos and read some of these accounts of how unsafe and unfit many of these missionaries are that we're sending our children to to serve. And this is one of the most shocking things I've ever seen or heard and this is not one of the two most shocking things that we're going to share with you today. But this is a report just came out this week from the daughter of of a mission president and his wife and she posted on Reddit and then reached out to me directly what Elder Bednar told her parents or current mission presidents about the quality of Mormon missionaries today. And this needs to be a short on TikTok and on Instagram and everywhere there's a short because this is what Elder David A. Bednar, prophet, seer and revelator and Apostle, Mormon Apostle thinks of the current missionary force. This person wrote that. I can tell you that this is a major concern for many of the general authorities. My mom and dad who were mission presidents recently told me that during their mission training in the MTC prior to leaving for and we're with we're withholding the location to protect the identity of this source that Elder Beldnar said to her parents as mission president, mission president's wife, quote, you're going to be lucky if you get 10 excellent missionaries in your mission today because of these problems. So basically a Mormon, a mission President over a two year period will probably reside over over three year period will probably preside over two to 400 missionaries. Is that reasonable? Gerardo?

Elder Bednar Addresses Parents of Prospective Missionaries

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] And Elder Bednar tells this mission president and his wife that he'll be lucky if he gets 10 excellent missionaries. Parents of prospective Mormon missionaries. This is what Elder Bednar thinks of your children right now. He said it 10. What's the percentage 10 out of 400. Can somebody do the math of what 10 out of 400 is? Is that like 4%? Like Elder Bednar thinks that 96% of the of your missionaries who are going to go on missions are are going to be excellent missionaries. That's Elder Bednar. He goes on to write Elder Bednar also blamed the coddling of youth and their parents for the ill equipped missionaries. He read on to say my parents have said majority of missionaries are on some form of medication for depression and or anxiety and then a lot of them also go on these missions with the promise of returning not gay. Yeah, 2.5%. So Elder Bednar thinks that 2.5% of the current Mormon missionary force or prospective missionaries are excellent missionaries. Did I get that right? That's right, Jen Any reaction?

Jenn Kamp [01:57:55] No, Just another great message from our

John Dehlin [01:58:01] yeah, Elder Bednar sometimes steals the show. And then of course there's the severe social conflict consequences for not serving, which which leads to a lack of informed consent. Because like you said, Jen, if you're told that it's either choose God and obedience or choose Satan or disobedience of God, if you if girls won't date you or boys won't date you, if your parents are going to be disappointed in you, if your siblings are going to see you as a disappointment, if your bishops and stake presidents are going to be disappointed, if you're not going to be able to date, I could even go on and share this quote this is just so egregious. One of the listeners wrote. I did not want to share any of this info publicly as it could affect my ability to attend colleges, but during my first year at BYU Idaho, I felt immense pressure to serve a mission. My first semester here, I had a bishop who would call me into his office constantly and would try to get me to start my mission papers. My bishop would always try to convince me to start my mission papers, even gave me a call calling as a ward missionary and called it a great way to build experience. When I tried to get him to leave me alone and use the mental health card, he said that a mission would solve my mental health problems. The bishop also referred me to a mission prep and offered to go with me so that I can feel comfortable. I declined this and just told him I had other plans that were more important. The pressure and shame from choosing to not serve a mission was a big contributor to my shelf breaking. Not serving a mission also makes having a social life a lot more difficult. As a BYU Idaho student, I have to live in student housing. Since I am not married, I've lived in apartments where I felt immense pressure to serve a mission. In some apartments, people will automatically not trust you. If you are in your 20s and have not served a mission as well, employers may even deny you for a job because you did not serve a mission. Dating at BYU Idaho is not better either. Potential partners or love interests see not serving a mission as a deal breaker and assume that you don't have a testimony. They also may even require that the perfect partner had served a mission. Serving a mission is pretty much an unwritten requirement at BYU Idaho. Not serving a mission makes you seen as less trustworthy and can sometimes have people thinking you are a some sort of pariah. Gerardo, you were. You were at BYU Idaho. Is that true?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:23] Yeah, that's right. 100%. That's right. I had roommates who didn't serve missions and that, I mean, that's exactly how they would experience it.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] Yeah. I have a family member whose kid went to byu. Super faithful, devout kid, wasn't sure he wanted to serve a mission. Within one semester, he drops out of BYU and transfers. And he was a top notch academic student, but now he's, it looks like he's out of the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Because the, the pressure BYU Provo was so intense.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:55] And what was interesting about that is it looks like the bishop was following the training from the Mexico slides that I showed. You know, the bishop was encouraging him to opening his mission papers. You know, subscribe. Sorry. Signing him up for the institute mission prep class and just giving him a calling, earning his trust and all the steps that bishops are supposed to do to pressure young men to serve missions. Kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [02:01:28] Yeah. And again, we've already, we've already beaten a dead horse here, but the church is shooting itself because the youth are already leaving in droves. And this, this added pressure to serve missions is just making them, is just making them want to leave faster. Jen, did you want to share something?

Returned Missionaries Reflect on Their Experiences

Jenn Kamp [02:01:48] Yeah. I was just talking to a returned missionary earlier today and just wanted to kind of tell you what she said was the hardest thing about her mission. And so I wrote it down. She said because of the way the LDS missions are structured, if you do it right and you are 100% in it and dedicated to being a missionary, then you come home and you take off your badge, you don't know who you are anymore. And so, and then the church and the leadership and the prophets are taking those missionaries who come home from serving, who have their whole identity, is now a missionary. You know, they're taking them right from their identity, being stripped from them to going into college and telling them to like, find a returned missionary and get married and have babies and have a family. They're not telling them to, you know, find who you are. You know, what values do you have? What do you want to be?

Guest 2 [02:03:04] What?

Jenn Kamp [02:03:05] You know, be educated, be, follow your dreams.

John Dehlin [02:03:09] Date.

Jenn Kamp [02:03:10] Yeah, follow your dreams, date a lot of people and see who, who you feel comfortable with. Yeah. You know, and all these really healthy narratives that you can tell youth that have served and are coming home, like all these beautiful things that you could tell them to do. No, they're telling them to go right from your identity, being a missionary into date quickly, get married quickly. And I see over and over stories, especially from women on the post Mormon Women feeds that are like, that's what I did. And I got into this marriage because that's the only identity I have, was connecting with him because we both served missions. And then they're having this identity or this abusive relationship that they're not compatible. And you know, they're being emotionally and physically and abused in these, in these places. And it's. And they're not having the opportunity to ever be them, to ever find out who am I, who am I? What, what within me makes me me, what life purpose do I want to have for me? They're not allowing that, especially for women in this. And so they're stripping them their identity and then giving them another one. And it's unfair, it's not right. And I believe that narrative needs to stop. And it needs to stop by the leaders of the church.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] Yeah, yeah. It's often said that Mormon missions are the most cult like aspect of Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] And in some sense it's almost identity appropriation where whoever you were before your mission, it's like the military, you're stripped down, you're given the Mormon missionary identity in hopes that that will set over a two year period and be how you live for the rest of your life. Oh, and then you wake up when you're 20 or 30 or 40 or 50, married with all these kids. You have your, you find the CES letter, you read the gospel topics essays, you come on Mormon stories, or you find Mormon stories, you find the YouTube channels, whatever it is, you realize that you were lied to, you were. The information was hidden from you, or you just find out that you're gay or that you're not sexually compatible with your spouse or that you didn't want to be a mom after all, or you didn't want to be a dad, or you didn't want to have those many kids. Kids or your marriage sucks. And then you're 30, 40 or 50. Realizing what happened to my life. I never even got to figure out who I was, what I cared about, what I loved. I was just put on this train and then I wake up decades later saying, where, how did I get here? This isn't fun.

Jenn Kamp [02:05:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:51] That's something that I think we haven't addressed is like why, why is it, why does a church want this, this youth in mission, on missions. And I mean, I think we talked a little bit about it. It's because the percentages of young single adults that stay, or, you know, members that stay active after serving a mission are much higher. Your chances of staying active in the church and being a tithe paying member are a lot higher if you go on a mission because of this very pressurized, like culty, a little bit culty experience that you get on your mission.

John Dehlin [02:06:30] I watch these kids go on missions and once they get on their missions they're, they lose their personality.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:34] 100 well, we're told to, that we, that's what we're supposed to do. We're told, you know, like there's talks that missionaries pass around and I remember there was this very famous talk, I think it was by Holland, you know, of dropping your nets and like you're not, if you were studying whatever, if you were a graphic designer before, just forget about that. You're a missionary now. And if you were studying medicine, forget about that. You're a missionary 100% of the time.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:04] Stripping away 100% of your identity is very, very important to be a successful missionary.

John Dehlin [02:07:10] And the church knows through internal research that you're like 20 plus times more likely to become a temple. Recommend holding temple, married, tithe paying, active, lifelong member if you go on a mission, marry quickly and have lots of kids. And that's, that's what all this pressure is about. It's, it's like the Darth Vader quote. The church is feeling its membership disappear and it's trying to tighten the grip.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:36] Yeah.

Mental Health Struggles and Harm on Missions

John Dehlin [02:07:37] And, and I am now going to share two of the most disturbing things I've ever shared on Mormon stories. One of them I don't think has ever been shared before. There's been several quotes from people like Boyd K. Packer, David A. Bednar, Jeffrey R. Holland that have been super deeply disturbing to people. And the first clip I'm going to show was shared to me by a friend whose son was in the mtc, was a month or two into his mission and he decided that he wanted to go home. This was in the early 2000s and as a part of the intervention, I don't know if it was by the MTC president or the mission president. As part of the intervention they played him a secret recording of a Jeffrey R. Holland talk that was given, I believe in the MTC sometime during the administration of Gordon B. Hinckley. And I'm just going to warn you right now, this is going to be one of the most disturbing things you ever hear on Mormon stories. It's Jeffrey R. Holland talking about whether or not missionaries should come home early. So imagine you're anxious, you're depressed, you're self harming or you're suicidal or you just Feel like the mission isn't working for you. This is the type of internal communication or video or audio that they're sharing with missionaries and that mission presidents and leadership are sometimes sharing with missionaries.

Guest 3 [02:09:10] I hope there's no one within the sound of my voice who wants to go home. That just comes to me. It makes me wonder whether there's someone here who does want to go home, because that wasn't even remotely in my mind. I don't know who you are and I don't know how seriously you're entertaining the thought, but don't you ever go home. Don't you dare leave this place. Not for God's sake, not for the church's sake, not for President Hinckley's sake. Somehow I think they can probably handle it. But don't you dare leave here for your sake. I have lived on and off in my general authority life. I have come in contact around the world with missionaries who did not see their mission through. I'm not talking about medical releases or emergencies or tragedies. I'm talking about somebody who just said, I don't like doing this. It's too hard, and I'm going home and let my mother take care of me. I have met those people around the world. And if there is a more sorrowful, if there is a more anguished, and in a sense, if you promise not to misunderstand me, if. If there is, in a sense, a more pitiable group in all the world, I do not know who it is. Now, that's strong language. That's really strong language. But I told you before, my mission means everything to me. I would wrestle you to the floor. I'd pull the curtains down, I'd get chained. I don't know. Is there something around here that we tie people with? I don't see anything to tie people with. I ripped the cords off the television camera to keep you here. Not for our sake. Not for, you know, you think one little missionary and 58,000, you know, that's not going to bring the church to its knees, but it's going to ruin your life if you don't do the best things you've ever had a chance to do. However hard it is and however hard it may yet be.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] Reactions, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [02:11:55] Yeah. The most. The most pitial. Is that the word? The most pitial.

John Dehlin [02:12:00] Pitiable.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:00] Pitiable. The most pitiable group that he can think of in all the world is missionaries that go home from their missions.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] Mormon missionaries that come home early.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:10] Yeah. It's not like child sex abusers it's not like the group of prisoners at the prison. It's not murders, rapists. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] It's not pedophiles.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:22] Yeah. None of them. No. The most pitiable group is people who go home from their mission. That I just. Like, I'm out of words today. Like, I'm just out of words. Like. And that's the spokesman for God.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] Yeah. Non Mormons don't realize that in his position as an apostle, we're taught that he's a quote. This is. This is literal, a special witness of Jesus Christ. Members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles and First Presidency members within Mormonism are special witnesses of Christ. So when Holland is talking to those missionaries. Am I exaggerating, Jen, when I say they think these are the words of Christ?

Jenn Kamp [02:13:11] No, they think they're the words of Christ. And he's telling them, like, you stay there. I will physically hold you back. I will mentally, you know, tear the. I don't know, whatever he was saying. All these, like, physical restraints, restraints and mental restraints and all these things that he's, like, throwing at them is abusive talk. That's. That's abusive.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:36] He's mentally abusing the. The missionaries that he's talking to.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:40] And whoever in the future hears those words because. And believes them.

John Dehlin [02:13:46] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:46] You know, or any members of the church. That's what he's doing. He's mentally abusing them.

John Dehlin [02:13:52] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:53] And it's like, how wrong is that? Like, I don't. I just don't know what to say anymore. Like, I just always think it can't get worse, and then something else comes up and it gets worse. It just breaks my heart. It just is sad.

John Dehlin [02:14:09] Just like Brad Wilcox gave his talk that caused so much controversy several months ago. We know he gave that talk hundreds and hundreds of times. How many times has Elder Holland given this talk to missionaries? We don't know. Yeah. And then we know that the fact that it was recorded and as a policy shared with missionaries who are thinking about coming home.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:28] If there is any group in the church that believed that Holland was speaking for Jesus the most, is. Are those missionaries right there?

John Dehlin [02:14:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:39] Like, there's no other group in the church that will believe that, like, that strongly that he was literally a representative of Christ, not. Not a primary president or Relief Society president, not a bishop, not a stake president. Yeah, it's those missionaries right there.

John Dehlin [02:14:57] And they're 18. They're 19. Yeah, they're 18. 19 years old. They're not even 20. They're not even, like, necessarily drinking age. You know what I mean?

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:06] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:15:07] Yeah. And what. What missionaries are sitting there in that audience that are, like, mentally and physically exhausted. Like, they. They should not be there, you know, and, like, how many of them. Like, we don't know. Yeah, we don't know right now. Like, how many of them, you know, that really affected them or, you know, worse.

John Dehlin [02:15:28] He also said, they'll ruin their lives. Did you catch that? He not only called them pitiable, he said, you'll ruin your life if you come home early. What about the missionaries who do come home early have. After having heard that, that's called learned helplessness. He just taught them that they ruined their life.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:46] Am I exaggerating? Yeah, it's exactly what he did. It's. It's horrendous, and he knows better, and that's so manipulative, and it is abusive, Jen. It's terrible. So I hope this clip gets shared far and wide. We're going to release it on Mormon stories on the YouTube channel, and we want everyone to know what Elder Holland thinks about people who come home early, because guess what? You're a prophet Syrian revelator. Then today and forever, he was speaking as a prophet Syrian revelator when he said that. And guess what, Elder Holland, you just told a third of your missionary force that they've ruined their lives because that's how many are coming home early. Yeah, I guess that's not true if. If they're coming home for medical reasons. But we know a lot of the people who claim to come home early for medical reasons are masking a loss of faith with reports of depression and anxiety, partly because mission presidents are incentivized to not let their missionaries come home early, and so they have to claim a medical exemption to be able to even get an honorable release. So this is just a disaster. Have we said enough?

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] All right. Well, that was not happy and fun to share. I asked the mom of this missionary how her son was once he came home because he. He saw that video and then came home, and this is what she wrote. Once he got home, he was basically fine. Although to get home, he resorted to lightly cutting himself because he knew if he did that, the mission president would send him home. He wasn't trying to die, but he wasn't being heard with a simple, I want to go home. So basically, these missionaries are being incentivized to exhibit traits of being mentally ill so that they can justify an honorable return home or being allowed to return home. It goes on to say, thankfully, him and I both My husband and I were both nuanced in our feelings about the church at that time, and we're more than okay with him coming home. Never once asking him if he was going back out. His friends and the ward members knew we supported him 100%. So, you know, another person writes, my cousin is currently serving and expressed to me in an individual email that he is struggling with his health. Really bad. An abusive companion who just got transferred out thankfully, and his testimony. I'm thankful. I'm. I'm thankful he knows I'm a safe person. I express support for him no matter what and that if he needs to come home, I will run to the airport to be there for him. Apparently his dad found out and texted me this Saturday morning. I will change names. What are you trying to do, Danny? I responded kindly to this accusation, asking for an explanation. My uncle said these words. You seem to be pressuring him to choose a path that will make him unhappy. You said you wanted him to be happy, but you weren't. Right now, I hope you can find your way back to the iron rod so you can find true happiness. Which is total BS because all I did was express support. That's literally all he is pressuring him to stay on his mission even though he is so sick physically and mentally. Jen, were you going to say something?

Jenn Kamp [02:19:01] Yeah, I was just going to point out another thing that a lot of the women caught on to that I caught on as well, that he, like, mom shames them in the middle of all of that.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:19:13] He's like, you can go home to your mommy to take care of you. You know, like there's a. They have to throw in the little shame thing because the rest of the abuse talk isn't.

John Dehlin [02:19:22] Because real, Real men wouldn't need their mommies. Right?

Jenn Kamp [02:19:24] Yeah. Go home and have your mommy take care of you.

John Dehlin [02:19:27] That was super insulting. Yeah, that was super insulting.

Jenn Kamp [02:19:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:30] Yeah. I'm going to release the transcript of that entire diatribe as well. So. So anyway, now we come to the most disturbing thing we're going to share today, and it's kind of how we're going to close today's episode. I got a. And I'm going to kind of give a warning. We're going to be talking about suicidality, actual suicide, completion of a missionary, because we want to show. You know, I had a close friend who's a psychiatrist once tell me people attempt suicide when they feel stuck, when they feel like they have no. No reasonable choice. And so if they're stuck between being completely miserable or being suicidal with anxiety and depression. And they're stuck between that and this type of damaging rhetoric that Elder Holland and mission presidents and parents at home and bishops and stake presidents at home all spew, which is that it's dishonorable to come home for anything other than a medical reason, or if they're terrified or petrified with fear that they're not going to be able to date, they're not going to be able to get married, they're going to disappoint their parents and their siblings and their grandparents and their bishops and their ward members, and they won't be able to be trusted at BYU if they're pinned between those two options. It makes perfect sense that anxiety is going to develop, depression is going to develop, self harm is going to develop, eating disorders are going to develop, scrupulosity on the mission is going to develop, and sometimes suicidal ideation is going to develop, and even sometimes those suicidal ideations will lead to attempts or completions. We interviewed Kelly Lang and his family and they talked about their son who was a missionary who either attempted suicide or was going to attempt a suicide on his mission. There are lots of examples of this. We're going to share one now, so viewer and listener discretion advised. We're going to share with you now an audio recording of a listener and a viewer who shared with us, with permission, the worst possible consequences to Elder Holland's rhetoric and to this pressure that is being applied to these missionaries to go on missions and not return return home early. Here is the tape.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [02:22:07] I was close friends with an elder in the mtc. We both had struggled with being in the MTC very much show emotionally and due to mental health problems that we entered with prior to going into the mtc. And for me, the dramatic change led to being depressed and anxious all the time. And the same with him. He had asked our branch president and the MTC multiple times if he could go home in which he was counseled that if there was no issues that he had had untaken care of previously to entering the mtc, that he should stay there and that was the best place for him to be. They insisted that maybe there were unrepentant square sins that he had to take care of. But after this, Elder insisted that there were no unrepentant sins that were causing him to feel that way in the mtc. He was then forced to go to the next level of authority and have interviews with them all the way up to the MTC president at the time. So they still kind of suggestively, forcibly, kind of manipulated him into entering the mission field at which he struggled a lot emotionally. He had a lot of questions about the church and had a lot of pressure, not only from his family, but of course, the leadership around him. The mission president knew from the start that he did not want to be there and had had conversations with the leadership at the. The Provo MTC prior to him leaving the country to South America to serve out in the field. And ultimately as well, still suggested that that was the best place for him to be, that he should be out in the missionary training field. So after a couple months in the mission with his trainer, he ended up finally being allotted the capacity to go home. And our mission president let him go home. Him and I kept in touch while he was at home, and he emailed me back and forth when he was home, and he mentioned to me that he really struggled. And, you know, we had talked about our doubts together in the MTC and our struggles in the MTC and had a close bond. The last email he sent to me was him telling me basically that whatever you do, just don't come home because it makes it way harder than if he would have just stayed there. I think because of the pressure he felt from his family, his parents specifically, that I know, but then also just living in Utah and that cultural environment that he was surrounded by, the feeling of guilt for unrepentant sins that everyone had suggested, that wasn't the issue. When it really came down to his doubts and his belief that he didn't want to do that, his mental health problem. Shortly after that last email, I never received an email back. And then towards the end of my mission, over six months later, I never knew why, but his trainer ended up telling me that he had actually shortly after that period that he sent that email to me taking his own lie. And I did address it with my mission press because I was deeply disturbed by it and hurt. And this is someone that I had a close bond with that helped me get through the MTC myself. And when I spoke with my mission president about it, I expressed concern and, you know, where would this elder go? Where, you know, would he end up? He took his own life that were taught, you know, that's not okay within the church. That's not gonna get you to the celestial kingdom. And he said to me that that elder full knowingly, he said it was mentally ill and that God wasn't gonna hold him to that standard based on his mental health, that it was a mental health issue. So even though the mission president also urged him to to stay immediately upon arriving to the mission field and the mission home on our mission and he had told him, hey, you need to stay here. I think this is the best place for you to grow and overcome those mental health issues. He ended up going home and having a really hard experience in that conversation. My mission president also mentioned that he had little to no contact with the parents since the death. He was aware of it, but when he had tried to reach out to the parents, the parents were actually quite upset with the mission president because he pushed him to stay in the mission field despite everything that was going on with him internally and mentally and that he would continue to reach out to them and finally just continued that because of the parents thoughts towards the mission president and they were obviously very hurt by that. I also had a lot of mental health issues during the mtc and

Video Clip 1 [02:27:59] when

Video Clip 1 [02:27:59] it became noticeable to the missionaries around me, my teachers and the branch president, the branch president brought me in and also suggested that I had unrepentant sins to take care of, which I told him no, I didn't. And then when he actually looked back into my missionary files and found my history, which included information in my mission papers about mental health issues I had and so on and so forth, he sent me to a counselor, but felt that I needed to also just try to stay there and work it out with the therapist there on the MTC campus. And that's kind of. I don't know that this elder mentioned his mental health issues, but he did speak to me about all of the interviews that they kept putting him through over and over and over and over and over again and how mentally and emotionally taxing it was because. Because of what they were suggesting and saying to him and him bringing up doubts and disbelief and then also the pressure from his parents back at home for him to serve a mission, to serve a Spanish speaking mission like his father, highly intelligent elder, very talented, musically talented, just naturally just a good, genuine guy. And I was really devastated by his death. And I too felt that animosity towards those leaders that pushed him to stay there in the field and serve a mission and do those things. And my belief is that that's what led to his death. To be honest, the pressure around him was just too much for his mental stability and it shouldn't have been.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] You guys want to share any thoughts? It's a sobering.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:06] Story and it is an extreme story. And I'll just say, as you guys are gathering your thoughts, that suicide is always complicated. We're not trying to bring up an extreme story just to beat the church over the head with our agenda. Suicide's complicated. There can always be many factors that don't have anything to do with religion or the church at all. Suicides happen outside of Mormonism, obviously. And yet it's hard. Two things. It's hard not to feel like in this case, the. The pressure was a factor, but it's hard to think that this is the only time that's ever happened. We know that LGBT suicide rates are skyrocketing in Utah, that Utah has been sometimes three times the national average of youth suicide attempts or completions. There is a. There is a. I'd say a death by suicide or suicide attempt epidemic within Utah and within Utah youth that needs to be accounted for. And it's hard to exclude religion from at least the equation. Gerardo, do you have anything you want to share?

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:16] No, I agree. I don't think this is an isolated event. Just being pressured to stay on your mission and being pressured to say, you know, your past sins or whatever. I mean, I lived it when I was on my mission with a couple missionaries who wanted to go home. And I mean, as being. When I was a leader in the mission. I saw it like all the interviews they had to go through. I mean, what she talks about is pretty much textbook on how to handle missionaries that want to leave the mission field. Or at least he used to. I don't know if he has changed now, but. Yeah, sad.

John Dehlin [02:32:04] Jen, anything you want to. You want to add?

Jenn Kamp [02:32:12] I don't know, I. I think that story speaks for itself. That it's just. I don't know, I just don't see any. Like, there's no discernment. I'm sorry, priesthood holders. You don't. You don't have discernment. You know, you might have intuition that maybe you don't listen to sometimes. But saying that you have this special discernment and that you can. That you know what's best for other humans when they are speaking their truth to you and you decide to just tell them something else or give them another plan, whether you're the patriarch or the mission president or a bishop, I would suggest you listen to what the human in front of you is telling you about themselves because they know themselves best. And to really listen, not to listen to again, repeat to them what's in the mission handbook or what you know comes next in your little lessons you were taught the week before in leadership meeting. What I would suggest is that you Be with a person in front of you and you listen to them and you actually listen to their words and you hear them and you actually see them. And if they're telling you that they need to go home, then they need to go home. And there's no shame and guilt that needs to be put upon that. And I'm just sorry that this is happening. I'm sorry it's happening in missions with the youth in the church right now, the LGBTQIA+ community. It's just, we hear about it all the time now in Mormon stories. I hear about it all the time in this space. This isn't just like one suicide. This is a lot, a lot happening because you're not seeing people and listening to people and letting them be in charge of their own bodies and their own mental health. And we're done with it. We're just done with it. So do better.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Gerardo. Thank you. To the viewer and listener, the sister missionary who was willing to share that story, who gave us permission to share it. Condolences to the family and the families of, of Mormon teens and missionaries who reach similar fates. I'll just say there's so much that needs to change from, from Mormon prophets, seers and revelators claiming that they're special witnesses of Christ, claiming that they're the mouthpieces of God, claiming that they have the gift of discernment. Like you say, Jen, that all needs to go away. It just needs to be said. That's not true. You know, we abandon those doctrines. Missions need to become just completely voluntary. Whether you go or not, you should be celebrated. The people that should be punished within our culture and within our organization are anyone that makes anyone feel bad about their life choice. That's who needs to get punished. But we need to create a culture of choice, a culture of introspection, a culture of self knowledge, a culture of self guided inspiration and intuition. And, and then just like ease up on, on the mission chokehold and celebrate those who choose not to go, celebrate those who choose to come home early. Just celebrate everyone. And there's no pressure and there's no stigma. And parents need to stop bribing their kids to get a new car. This is common. I hear in Mormonism that parents, rich parents, will promise their kids a car if they serve a full mission. We need to stamp out this practice of like, I won't date you if you didn't serve a mission, or I won't hire you if you didn't serve a mission, or I won't trust you that somehow Mormon missionaries are more honest or trustworthy than the ones who don't serve a mission need to stomp all that out. And, and I think the church needs to really rethink its reliance on missionaries because we now know, especially during COVID how much of a colossal waste of time the mission was, that these missionaries were like on Facebook, they were on social media. One thing that came from the Rami Upton Ruminations podcast. Get this, Jen, get this right? I don't know if you heard this. There were reports that up to 40% of the missionaries in some missions were looking at porn and masturbating or while they were missions missionaries, self reporting. And we know that unpleasant things are underreported. So the fact that there were missions in the past two to five years where the missionaries were self reporting to the church, that 40% were looking at porn as missionaries, skirting all the rules, using their iPads and mobile phones and sneaking off to computers to look at porn and masturbate like. And then think of all the missionaries, all the potential missionaries that were kept from missions because they couldn't stop masturbating or looking at porn. While we know that probably most, if not all of the missionaries who actually ended up serving just lied to get on the missions, plus the mission presidents that are probably masturbating and looking at porn like it. We just need to rethink missionary service. Serving a Facebook mission serving, you know, going on to like want ads and posing as, like giving books away or English lessons in Japan or soccer games in Guatemala, whatever it is, baseball baptisms in, in the UK like the, the Mormon missionary program in 2022 is morally and functionally bankrupt. And it's a facade. It's a Potemkin town. And it needs to be kind of like completely redone where it's optional, maybe service missions mostly. And, and maybe we give up on a heavy emphasis on proselytizing because it's not working. Nobody wants to have a Mormon missionary knock on their door these days and tell them a simplified, whitewashed, completely a fraudulent version of, of the church history when, when the true history is. Would never sell if, if Mormon missionaries told the real history of Joseph Smith that he had over 30 wives, over 10 of them were married to other men, that many of the women that he married were underage, that they were coerced to be his wife, that the Book of Mormon is not a translation, it's a 19th century plagiarized text that the Book of Abraham that they sell as scripture Is. Is completely not a translation. That is also 19th work of Joseph Smith's creative imagination. You know, if, if the racism. If all those members of the church joining in Africa right now were told that just a few decades ago, black people were denied member, full, full status in the church for over 150 years because of doctrinal teachings. The dark skin was a curse from God, which, by the way, is still in the Book of Mormon. The Native Americans have dark skin because their ancestors were wicked. And so their dark skin was made loathsome so that the whites in the Book of Mormon wouldn't find them attractive. Like, if all of that was taught, nobody would get baptized and the missionaries wouldn't even go, because if they knew all that stuff, they wouldn't want to serve a mission in the first place.

Conclusions and Calls for Reform

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] So the, the Mormon missionary program in 2022 is bankrupt. It is failing. It's a failed state. It's causing undue harm and outrageous expenses to the families that are being asked to foot the bill. Not to mention long term, if not lifelong, mental health and physical disabilities for the missionaries who are neglected.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:55] How about, how about, you know, putting out, putting two years of your life, too? Like, I, like, one of the things I wanted to do, you know, like, I. I considered when I was in high school was being a doctor, but then coming back from my mission, I was like, I already lost two years. And being a doctor takes so many years to study, like. Well, and not only two years, because I lost, you know, half of it. Because sometimes the dates when you graduate high school don't really match up with your birthday, so you have to. You end up losing sometimes three or three and a half years anyway. I mean, I'm really happy with my life choices and where I'm at. But you got a young. Yeah, but. Yeah, what, what about those that go when they're 19 or 2021, having not

John Dehlin [02:41:47] been told the truth about the church's history and doctrine and theology and. Jen, I know you have strong feelings about this part too. Just the incredible sacrifice that two years is when you were sold into the mission, pressured into the mission under false pretenses.

Guest 2 [02:42:04] Right.

Jenn Kamp [02:42:04] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:42:06] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:42:07] It's just so many ways, so many wrongs.

John Dehlin [02:42:11] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:42:12] It's hard. Yeah. We can do hours and hours if we. If you wanted to.

John Dehlin [02:42:19] Yeah. So that's, that's our episode we had. We peaked at over 1500 livestream viewers. So this is one of the most watched live streams in the history of Mormon Stories podcast. And I imagine it's going to Get a ton of views on YouTube and just in the podcast channel, right? What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:39] Tell people to subscribe.

John Dehlin [02:42:40] Yeah, yeah. So please, right now, if you're. If you're on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. Please click the little bell so that you get notified if you're on Facebook. Follow us, subscribe to us. Please consider if you value this type of content, please. You can donate through the Super Chat feature. There's a little dollar sign you can click on in the chat in YouTube and you can donate to support our staff, to support our resources. You can also.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:08] This episode took a lot of hours from everybody.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] Yeah. Yeah. We were here for multiple days, working on this. Late nights, early mornings, frantically trying to get done in time. And all of this. We're trying to pay Gen, you know, generously, pay Gerardo generously. Our other staff, we're trying to do this right and make it sustainable so that we can provide this service of Mormon stories to you. So if you value this type of programming, please become a monthly donor. Please support us and please just spread the word, like us, comment us, share this with everyone you can, and that'll really help. But most importantly, just our hearts go out to the Mormon missionaries out there. I'm contacted weekly, if not month, monthly, if not weekly, by actively serving Mormon missionaries who are, like, reading the CES that are on their missions, listening to Mormon stories on their missions, watching Mormon stories on their missions, and either lying as missionaries or coming home early. It's almost become a joke how often these missionaries are reaching out to me to say, thanks for what you do, John. I'm coming home early. Or parents telling me, I have parents reaching out to me regularly saying, I have a kid who wants to come home and the mission president or the stake president won't let him come home. I get these messages all the time privately, like, I think we've met our point. This needs to change. Yeah. So thanks for listening to this episode on the Great Mormon Missionary Decline. We put a question mark there, because who knows, Maybe the church will pull a rabbit out of the hat. Maybe we see these statistics turn around. Maybe we've got the data all wrong. So, Mormon Church, if we've got the data wrong, we invite you to give us the right data. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:50] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:44:51] Yeah. Gerardo, thank you for this. This episode wouldn't have happened without you. Gerardo, thanks for making this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:58] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:44:59] Your role as a producer is just essential for Mormon stories. So thank you.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:03] Thank you. Thanks, John. Thanks, Jen.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] And Jen, everything you do with operations. You did the transcript for that audio thing. You came in here and just hustled and helped us get ready your commentary here on the episodes. It's always so thoughtful and heartfelt. Jen, thank you so much for what you do.

Jenn Kamp [02:45:19] You're welcome. Yeah, it was good to be here. And Gerardo's amazing. That's all I got to say. He puts all these slides together and gathers all this information. He's. He's really amazing.

John Dehlin [02:45:32] Yeah. And thanks all the viewers. All your comments are amazing. All these live chats are saved so people can go back and watch the live chats and. And just thanks for all your comments. Your comments along with your donations just make all this interesting. So. And thanks to everyone who shared comments on Instagram and Facebook. Please follow us on Instagram and Facebook. We're going to try and do more of those where we solicit contributions before episodes and then we'll incorporate them. So thanks to everyone who did share comments, both that were and were not incorporated into today's episode. We couldn't have done it without you. So thanks, everybody. Be kind to each other, love each other. Don't serve a mission if. If you don't feel like it's going to be healthy for you. And don't pressure or shame any family member if they either choose not to serve a mission or if they come home early. Just love them and celebrate them and let's find other ways to do good in the world. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Thanks, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:30] Yeah. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Thanks, Jen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:31] Thanks, everybody.

Jenn Kamp [02:46:32] Thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin [02:46:33] And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.