Introducing Camille and Maddy

Camille Hunka [00:00:11] Your mom and me, we've seen this life with eyes that only see in black and white.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Camille Hunka [00:01:03] Tune me out if you must I know you've heard enough But I sing this song Just because I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy was I hope you'll be wiser hello everyone and

John Dehlin [00:01:27] welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 7, 2018 and we have a very important and very sobering episode for you today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Today we are interviewing Camille Hunka and Maddie Secot. And for those of you who follow the Sultley Tribune, you will know that on August 30, this article appeared in the Sultley Tribune, which is entitled Assault Survivors Seek Safety for Missionaries. And it has a picture of Maddie there. And then the next day, or I believe it was the day after, on August 31, a second article came out that says know that someone cares with general authority Brett Nielsen on the COVID It's a two part, very extensive story about Mormon missionaries experiencing sexual assault and how the Church handles it. And while, you know, I think the article was very important and has had an important impact, I also think that rarely can any newspaper article maybe tell the full story. And so I'm pretty sure that there are important parts of the story that didn't get to get shared. And so today on Mormon Stories Podcast, we are very grateful and humbled to have Camille Hunka and Maddie Secot joining us to tell their stories. So each of them are going to share with us their story about experiencing sexual assault on their mission. I should go ahead and just insert the trigger warning here that we will be talking about sexual assault, rape, recovery treatment and all those sorts of things. So please be aware of that and manage the health and safety of yourself and of anyone who might be listening as we talk about these important issues. So we are going to be having Camille and Maddie tell their stories. We're going to talk about the Church's reaction, ways that the Church maybe didn't Handle this as they should. Ways that Maddie and Camille have tried to help improve the church's processes with regard to sexual assault admissions and missionaries and missionary safety, the challenges that they've had in trying to work with the church to make those improvements and maybe where they are today. So that's going to be a sobering and intense Mormon Stories podcast episode. And so, Camille and Maddie, thank you so much for being willing to come on the podcast.

Camille Hunka [00:04:28] Our pleasure. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Anything either of you want to say, in addition to that introduction that I made, just to kind of begin with any important comments for our listeners?

Camille Hunka [00:04:46] No, I appreciate you providing a trigger warning. I think Maddie and I have both been surprised what we actually are triggered by, especially as related to the treatment of women in the church. So I appreciated that. We both have very unique stories, and in some ways they overlap and in some ways they don't. And there's a lot of context that I think needs to be provided and with both stories to really understand the mindset that we were in when. When our assaults took place, because we were both relatively far along in our missions. So that's all I would add. I think that covers it.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] And Maddie, we should add, you're currently a BYU student, is that right?

Camille Hunka [00:05:34] Yes. So that does add some interesting dynamics. And I'm probably going to choose my words carefully. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] And we'll be sensitive to that. Okay. Well, without I guess, any further ado, let's start, Camille, with your story. Maybe talk a bit about your Mormon upbringing. Kind of led to your mission experience.

Camille's Background and Path to a Mission

Camille Hunka [00:05:56] Yeah. So I grew up in a suburb of Detroit, Michigan. I have one sibling, and my mom was actually not a member for the majority of my life. She was baptized when I was in high school. So I did not have a traditional Mormon upbringing in any way. We were kind of like on again, off again as a family. I was baptized at 8, but I was what I would consider to be a normal teenager. Like, my behavior didn't always follow Mormon standards by any means, but my brother was going to play soccer at byu, and him and I are very close. So I made the decision to apply to BYU and got in. And that was a really difficult decision to go because I just wasn't in a place where my life was super conducive to the culture at byu. But I decided to go anyway. And I actually graduated from BYU before I decided to serve a mission. And people always ask me why I decided to serve a mission. And when I'm being fully honest with myself, it had absolutely nothing to do with anything religious whatsoever. The Tribune article talked a little bit about my not feeling competent in any way when it came to the church. Like, I hadn't grown up reading the scriptures or knowing anybody's names or any history of the church. So I got to byu and I just felt. I just always felt completely out of the loop, like I could not keep up. And the article talked about my calling. My. My recent, most recent calling before my mission call was a member of the waffle committee. So I just think that's a perfect.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] What's the waffle Committee?

Camille Hunka [00:07:59] It was the committee that made breakfast before temple trips, and I attended one time, and it was all men and just me serving the breakfast.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Okay.

Camille Hunka [00:08:10] It was awesome. So that was. That was. It was just. It's so representative of how I felt. Like I wasn't really qualified to be taken seriously. That's truly how I felt. And, you know, all of my guy friends had come and gone, and I just felt like I was working down in Provo. Like I had a good job, and I just felt like I was gonna work for the rest of my life. So why not take a second and go on a mission? Logical thinking, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Am I hearing you say you felt a little bit inadequate church wise, and that maybe a mission could make you feel like a more legitimate Mormon?

Camille Hunka [00:08:51] 100%, yeah. I felt like even as a child, when we would sporadically attend church, I remember, you know, they would say, turn to Alma, whatever. And I would be like, holding my scriptures, like, I have no clue where Alma is. That could be anywhere. And just watching people, you know, so quickly and casually flip to it, I just did. I. There were. There were such basic things that I didn't know. I remember my brother getting to BYU and learning that the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit were the same thing. I mean, we had no clue. Like, we just had no clue. My parents and my brother were in doubt all at the same time when I was a senior in high school. So, you know, we didn't live. We didn't see garments. We didn't. It just wasn't a part of my upbringing, so totally felt inadequate the whole time I was at byu.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] And when you decided to serve a mission, where was that in the chronology of the church? Lowering the age for men and women and encouraging women to serve, all women to serve, who can versus how it was before.

Camille Hunka [00:09:59] Yeah. So I think that announcement, I want to say it was made in 2012, and I received my call in 2013, so it was after.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] So it was A year into that missionary craze that the church experienced.

Camille Hunka [00:10:10] Yeah. And I felt that in my mission for sure.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] So, okay, so you're swept onto the mission and do you know where did you want to go? Where were you hoping to go?

Camille Hunka [00:10:22] I. My father is from South America and my Spanish was like very touch and go. So selfishly hoped I would go Spanish speaking.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] What country? Hunka.

Camille Hunka [00:10:32] He's from Uruguay.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Okay, Uruguay.

Camille Hunka [00:10:35] Uruguay. Yeah. And so, yeah, I wanted to go Spanish speaking.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] He didn't serve a mission.

Camille Hunka [00:10:42] He did not serve a mission. He. Yeah, he. He left Uruguay at 17 and was inactive for at least 20 years and met my mom and got married and had us. And so there's a large gap in activity for him. My brother went to Chile, Spanish speaking. So I had thought about, you know, obviously, like, you hear stories, it. Sometimes it's so convenient where people are called, like, their families from there and everybody in their family has been called there. And of course they get called there too. So I'm like, maybe I'll go to Uruguay or maybe, you know, South America somewhere. And I received my call on pioneer day in 24th of July, July y, 2013, 2013, and went to my aunt's house to open it with family and couldn't pronounce the name of the mission, which was Cuernavaca in Mexico. And I remember thinking, I didn't even know they sent missionaries to Mexico. Like, nobody had guessed Mexico when they had guessed where I might go. It just didn't even occur to me that I could go there. And, you know, you Google it really quickly. Like, everybody frantically starts googling trying to figure out where, where is that city? And also, you know, what's it like? And it's called the Beverly Hills of Mexico. The climate is. Is supposed to be really nice, and it's kind of a wealthier area. So a lot of wealthy people in Mexico City have vacation homes in Cuernavaca, but the mission itself encompasses much more than that. Just, you know, that little region.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] So how'd you feel getting call to Mexico?

Camille Hunka [00:12:31] I was really excited. Again, I was kind of shocked. I didn't know. I didn't know they were sending women to Mexico. I hadn't really heard of anybody getting called there. And then I found out that we were the first wave of American sisters that they were sending. And I don't know how large the gap was between, you know, the last wave of American sisters, but it sounded like it had been several years, so I was really excited. Yeah, it sounded just like an adventure which is kind of what I was looking for, so.

Testimony and Expectations Entering the Mission

John Dehlin [00:13:00] And what was your testimony like as you're entering your mission?

Camille Hunka [00:13:08] I think, you know, I mean, I'd just been at BYU for four years, so I'm not sure what was authentic and what wasn't. I think, you know, I would have said, I know the church is true. I still didn't know a lot of details. I remember in my first area with my trainer, we. In one of my first lessons, we were teaching the word of wisdom, and she wanted to, like, go through a quick little role play. And she's like, all right, flipped the word of wisdom. And I looked at her, like, still not there. No idea where to find that, you know, And I was only in the MTC for 12 days because they accelerated me through Spanish, and so I had. I had decent Spanish for, yeah, yeah, it was okay, but I mean, certainly couldn't teach the word of wisdom in Spanish and couldn't find it. So that was my main problem. So. So I had. I. I would say I had a testimony, but it wasn't complex in. In any way. It was just like, I know that it's true enough to obviously be here for a year and a half. So.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] So I remember when I got called to Guatemala, I didn't know where Guatemala was, but when I got to the mtc, they had these little fact sheets of, like, what's your country like? And so you read about the national bird and the national flag and the national motto and the climate, and, you know, that's kind of what you learned about your country. And this is mine was before the Internet. But what did you have any sense about the dangers, the risks? Talk about kind of what you learned in. Up through actually going to Mexico in terms of what the potential risks were for you.

Camille Hunka [00:14:56] So my dad's parents actually lived in Mexico for several years, and in. I think it was in 2010, they were threatened by a drug cartel and fled the next day to the United States. So. And my dad had been to Mexico several times to visit, and I had heard stories, obviously, of, like, the cops pulling you over and you paying them off. And so I knew, you know, I was familiar enough with Mexican culture to know a little bit about, you know, to know about some conflict that was happening. But with my mission specifically, you receive your call, and it outlines, you know, how many skirts you need to bring and the vaccine vaccinations you need beforehand. And that, you know, was pretty much the extent of it. And then you just go into, like, buying in prep mode, like I need to read the Book of Mormon. It would be a good thing to do before I go. And I need to buy skirts and shoes.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] So was safety on your mind entering Mexico?

Camille Hunka [00:15:59] Not at all. No.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] You're thinking, what, I'm going to Mexico. Which meant what?

Camille Hunka [00:16:03] I'm going to Mexico. They, like, they would obviously never send me somewhere where you couldn't have missionaries. And I'm gonna be with a companion and I'm gonna be outside. Just during this time, it never even occurred to me to think about those things. Self defense. Not like, truly, it did not cross my mind. I also wasn't, you know, I was. I was 22 already when I went. So I also, I wasn't like, I wouldn't consider myself to be this bubbly, excited, ignorant girl. I just, you know, I was very focused on the challenge of the gospel part because for me, that was going to be the most challenging part was, you know, learning what I need to teach and then teaching it effectively in Spanish. So I was just very focused on that piece and not thinking about myself in that way.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] How many months were you in Mexico total?

Camille Hunka [00:16:57] 14.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Okay. Okay. So you served more than a full year in Mexico. Anything you want to say about your mission as it related to safety or whatever?

Camille Hunka [00:17:06] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Or prior to the actual assault, certainly.

Camille Hunka [00:17:11] Yeah. So I think it was just a very rude awakening when I got there because my companion and I were opening an area and my house did not have running water or electricity. And I remember being so confused at the lack of organization. It was like the zone leaders scrambling to find housing for us when they found out that we would be arriving and. And just what that does to somebody psychologically when, you know, and I was sick. Like, you get to your mission in Mexico and you immediately get sick from something you eat and, you know, not being able to take a shower at home. We had to walk to a member's house to do that and then like flushing the toilet with a bucket and the water you have to get from the backyard, you know, so it was just so uncomfortable. And I remember feeling like this couldn't possibly be safe. Like, it's just not a safe way to live and it's not a safe way to. It's not psychologically safe, certainly, and not a good way of welcoming a terrified new missionary into the mission. In my first area, actually, my first night, I, you know, you're supposed to contact everybody. And I contacted this man I complimented. He was wearing a Mexican soccer hat. And I complimented his hat because I like soccer. And that Was my way of like starting the contact. And I think he thought I was not starting a religious contact. So he like, grabbed my arm and was prepared to. He. He mentioned to my companion, she's coming home with me. And I'm like, I have no idea what's happening. So that was. And she was my companion, was furious at me for engaging with this guy. And I. That was kind of a wake up call of, you know, okay, I have to be a little bit more aware. So I, I mean, your cat called every day and harassed in that way. There were multiple times that I was grateful, groped in the street. Just men that would come up and you're wearing a skirt, so they would like grope you under your skirt and run away. Or one time there was a guy on a bike that, you know, was riding and gave me a nice spank and kept going. And it just became part of your life there. And, and at one point it was actually funny to me, which is, I think, hopefully that reflects the place I was in. Like, I, it was like my body was separate from me and I, you know, I was there to do something else. And if people, people wanted to do that along the way, it just felt like it was the cost of, of, of doing business. And, you know, as a missionary, things got really challenging in my area in Iguala. You know, this was the first place where I started noticing pretty significant conflict. Our ward secretary was kidnapped for 11 days at one point. And that was a very traumatic thing for everybody. He was a young guy and had been working at a mine. And in Mexico, as a business, you pay the cartel monthly to basically leave you alone. And what I understood is that they weren't paid. And so they kidnapped a few of the, the employees. And the ward secretary was one of them. So just existing in that dynamic, knowing that was going on and having to just continue like he was not, you know, being probably tortured every day was just, I don't know, just a huge challenge. We were baptizing a girl who was, I think nine or 10, and her family had gone inactive. And now she's baptism age and past eight. So she's a convert. So the morning of her baptism, we went to pick her up and her mom just looked totally freaked out. And she took me close to her and we were gonna take her daughter to the baptism. And she whispered in my ear and told me that they had found her oldest son murdered and that they would be leaving the state or that they would be leaving the city in the night because they had Also received threats. So this was the last time I would be seeing their family. And I remember looking and she said, my daughters don't know, so please don't say anything. And we're on our way to her baptism. Like, just completely surreal. So, yes, there were little, you know, I would say not little things, significant warning signs. And then everything kind of came to a head at the end of September of 2014 when there was a shooting in my. In that city in Iguala where I was and 43 college age students were kidnapped and, and presumed dead. So that happened within a mile from our missionary apartment. And people are knocking on our doors, you know, like canvassing. They are handing out like, have you seen these people flyers? And we were inside, we were asked to stay inside for two weeks. We weren't allowed to leave our apartment. And then we were called and said, please be at the bus station in 30 minutes. And about 90 missionaries were evacuated from that state for a period of three months. We were sent back on January 6th and my.

Serving in Dangerous Conditions in Mexico

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Where'd you go, Where'd you go when you were evacuated?

Camille Hunka [00:22:44] Oh, we went back to Cuernavaca.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Huh, The Beverly Hills?

Camille Hunka [00:22:49] It went back to Beverly Hills? Yeah. No, that state is much smaller, but it was considered to be safer. So they just basically doubled up in every area. So. And at first it was a temporary assignment and then they said, nope, this is your new area until things settle down. And then we were sent back and three months later. Three months later. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] And those, those students that were kidnapped or do we know what happened to them?

Camille Hunka [00:23:21] They were murdered and burned. It was really disturbing. So there's a documentary about Iguala, but cartels rule the world there and, and kidnappings take place constantly and so, so many people disappear. And when they were looking for the bodies of these boys, I remember them finding other like mass graves and doing a DNA test. And they did not match the DNA of the boys. So they would just find bodies. Like it's just normal there right now. So they, they're. They are dead. Yeah, they were murdered.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] And these kids were what age?

Camille Hunka [00:24:08] About 19 to 21.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] And I'm just trying to imagine someone in Salt Lake saying, okay, three months, we're good. Like it's safe again to go back into Iguala because there's. It's been three months since 43 students were killed and burned.

Camille Hunka [00:24:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] So now it's okay, the missionaries are safe to go back.

Camille Hunka [00:24:27] Right. Well, well. And I remember when we were evacuated, we were told that it was not a decision that the missionary department made. We were told that it was just a precaution, that it was actually okay. But they were. There were a lot of protests at the time. The whole country was pan panicking. And there were so many protests at the time that they were worried about blockades and they were worried about supplies like us being without food. They certainly weren't worried about it, didn't they? I'm sure they were worried about our safety, but their main concern was that there were protests that were leading to these blockades which were leading to, you know, a potential lack of resources. So I remember my mission president saying, like, this is basically just a precaution. It doesn't sound like it was a decision made by the missionary department.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] So the missionary department's letting local leaders make these decisions, correct? Talk about your mission president. Who was he and what was his background?

Camille Hunka [00:25:25] My mission president at the time?

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Yeah,

Camille Hunka [00:25:33] My mission president had worked for byu, Idaho, and I didn't know a lot about him as a person. You know, you interact only in mission leadership settings. So I didn't take a ton of time to get to know him. I just knew that he had been, you know, a faithful, active member his whole life. He served, I think he also served a mission in Guatemala and I had a good working relationship with him. I had been in a leadership position for the majority of my mission. So him and I saw each other fairly regularly.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] And what was the leadership position for women in your mission?

Camille Hunka [00:26:13] Sister training leader is what it's called. So we were in a unique position because we were the first American sisters back in the mission. And then there was a huge wave of them in the transfer, the transfers that followed. So I think there was a need to have somebody who was kind of a liaison between, you know, these native sister missionaries that had been in the mission and kind of had it down. And then these 19 year old women that were, you know, didn't have Spanish, didn't have any background in Spanish and were struggling. So I helped a lot with that.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] So what types of messages were you given about safety as missionaries? Was the general topic of like danger or risk or safety ever brought up either in the MTC or in Mexico? And if so, what were you told about God, protection, obedience, you know, your safety? Were there any? Was it ever discussed? And if so, what was your impression about, you know, the protection that you might be afforded, the divine protection you might be afforded and what would lead to more protection or less?

Camille Hunka [00:27:26] Sure, obedience leads to protection. I think that's been pounded into everybody's heads for a long time. I mean, in the temple, they pray for missionaries every day. So you know that you have this community rallying around you with the most powerful prayers that exist.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Simple prayers are extra powerful.

Camille Hunka [00:27:51] Temple prayers are extra powerful. Okay, you've got the white handbook that goes through some. I mean, that's a standard handbook for every mission in the world. So it wasn't specific to my mission, but it talked about, like, not surfing or straight, like, water sports. We would laugh because we had to read. I think it was three pages as part of our intro to our companionship study every morning. And there were so many parts that were so not. Like, we didn't have cars, we didn't have bikes. So we would get to these points in the handbook that sounded like, avoid these activities. It was like, I'm not participating in a water activity. Like, that's not in the realm of possibility in my mission. So a lot of it was physical safety, Certainly no sexual concern in any way. I remember we had been told that a safety representative had been down to my mission at one point before I had arrived and had presented. And so whenever I trained a new missionary, we would go through that safety presentation. And I remember it being very basic and, you know, tell them that you're a missionary. And that was kind of the extent of it. But I never met with any safety officials or had, you know, specific ongoing training related to safety.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] So when you're sent back into Iguala.

Camille Hunka [00:29:18] I was sent back into Chilpancingo, which is south of Iguala.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Okay. And when you're sent back into that state. Right, right. That, you know, so many 43 students had been murdered in. What were your thoughts and feelings about returning to that general area?

Camille Hunka [00:29:34] I was so excited. I'm not allowed. I was not allowed to read the news or watch the news or, you know, so you're getting secondhand information, but you're a missionary. And we had a ton of, you know, missionary success in Iguala. Like, we met a lot of people that were interested in hearing our message and we had a lot of support from the ward. And I had the best companion ever. And it was just like the time of my life on my mission. And so I couldn't wait. I was really excited. And I was going to be training a brand new missionary, and my companion, who I'd had for the last six months would still be in my district and also training a brand new missionary. So it just sounded fun, truly, it just sounded like this. I was at 14 months, so it was my, you know, final couple of transfers, and it just felt like my last push. And then I could, Like, I was. I felt like, so in my rhythm and also on the downhill, like, I'm going home. So it's just fun at that point, you know, there's really nothing to worry about at that point.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] And you knew about the students being kidnapped?

Camille Hunka [00:30:49] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] But that didn't. Do you have any idea or theory as to why that didn't concern you or trouble you or.

Camille Hunka [00:30:57] It sounded.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] The kidnapping of the executive secretary, the person that was killed, like, you knew there was danger there.

Camille Hunka [00:31:07] It just didn't register. Like, and this makes me sound really naive and I suppose I was, but it just. It doesn't occur to you that that would ever happen to you, especially coming from a place where I had not been obedient at any other point in my life. And now I'm, you know, I.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Prior to your mission.

Camille Hunka [00:31:29] Prior to my mission, you know, at byu, I. I gave it my absolute best effort. But before that, like, it was a free for all. So this was the first time in my life that I was doing everything that I could possibly do. What. You know, what more could you possibly do as a member of the church full time, like praying 100 times a day before and after everything you do? And it just didn't occur to me that that would ever even touch me. I was, you know, and I was. I was following the rules when it came to safety precautions. I wasn't out at 11 at night or, you know, I wasn't drinking and I wasn't. So it just. I knew that those things were going on. They just felt like isolated incidents with an explanation for each. Like, oh, his employer did not pay their fee to the cartel. Well, you know, they were kidnapped. Or these students were involved in protests and there was some conflict with the local, you know, police department. And. Well, that is what happened. But, like, why would they target missionaries?

John Dehlin [00:32:31] And you mentioned your obedience because, again, you felt like if you were obedient. What?

Camille Hunka [00:32:36] I was protected. Right? For sure. And I was. I mean, nothing had happened. Of course, now looking back, it's like, well, you know, I was spanked all the time. So that did happen. And you start realizing that it wasn't that way, but at the time, certainly felt safe. Yes.

The Assault and Its Immediate Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:33:01] All right. Do you want to talk about. Is it. Is there anything else you want to talk about before we talk about the actual incident, the assault?

Camille Hunka [00:33:09] I don't. I mean, it's just very. It's very complicated. But I think it's important to note that we were evacuated for three months. And I think that represented that there was, you know, a specific danger to us. And, you know, when you think of the students that were kidnapped, they were missionary age. So that just all. There was so much strange momentum building up to this final moment that was, you know, I'm training this missionary, and then I'm going home.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] So how do you feel about talking about the actual incident?

Camille Hunka [00:33:45] I'm totally okay doing that. So my new companion arrived January 5th of 2015. She was from Mexico. And that first day we spent in the mission home and training meetings. We were on a bus on Tuesday morning, January 6, to Chilpan Sengo, which was, I think, a little bit over three hours on a bus from Cuernavaca. We were picked up at the bus station by two missionaries, elders, I think they were our zone leaders, and then taken to the first counselor's home because there hadn't been missionaries in the area for three months. So it was just kind of a recap of what had been happening. And if there were investigators and here are your resources in the ward. And so we had breakfast there for maybe an hour. And then I think it was around 10 or 11 that we were dropped off at our new missionary apartment. And this was the same apartment that sisters had been in prior to the evacuation. So I remember in Mexico, I'm sure in a lot of, you know, Central and South America, there are these gates on the, you know, on the street, and you use a key to get in. And once you're in, it's either just a single house or maybe a little courtyard with a couple of houses or whatever. So what I remember is you get in with a key. And then there was a member's house. I. I don't know what their position was in the ward, but we lived in this upstairs apartment. So use the key, get in. Elders carried up our suitcases, up a flight of stairs on the outside, and then we go inside and they leave. And there was no electricity because the bill hadn't been paid for a couple of months. So I'm looking for our area book, which is the book that has every, hopefully every resource you need to know what is going on in that area. And I just couldn't. I couldn't find the area book. And I realized that we had no electricity. So I wanted to make our beds before we left for the day to start working. And so I made a few phone calls. I was trying to track down the area book, and I remember my companion was in the. The bathroom, and I just hear these footsteps coming up the stairs. And our door was a jar, because like I said, once you use a key to get in, it's like your house, it was a member's house, and then your apartment upstairs, so it. It's hot. So you keep doors and windows open. So anyway, these two men, I. I hear footsteps and I look at the door and our doors, you know, open, and these two men are just at the. At the door. And I remember for a split second I looked at them and I was wondering if they were our neighbors, someone coming to introduce themselves, like, oh, the sisters are back. That, you know, wouldn't be abnormal. But they immediately started coming in and immediately said, get out. Get under the table or we'll shoot you. And I remember my companion was coming out of the bathroom, and I looked at her like, am I. Is this actually happening? And her face, I just remember her face dropping and my stomach dropping. Like, I. I just knew at that point that something horrible was going to happen. So it was a really small apartment.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Did they have guns?

Camille Hunka [00:37:35] They, they. I didn't see, but they said they were going to shoot us. And I immediately got under the table. And I remember it was a. It was like an. If. My memory is that it was a larger end table, so you had to really crouch to get under it. And we couldn't see much, but I just remember immediately hearing my suitcase, all of our suitcases, you know, the zipper very aggressively being opened and just like kind of ripping things apart immediately. And within a minute, that one man, I think, was uncomfortable that we could still see. And so he ordered us on the floor. So we get on the floor and we're, you know, side by side, face down. And he immediately puts blankets and clothing, like, dumps the suitcase on top of us and lays a blanket out over us so that we couldn't see a thing. And I don't know how much detail you want, whatever I'm comfortable with. So they started inter. So actually one man was just robbing us. Only one man was near us and talking to us. And at first it just felt like an interrogation, you know, asking us why we're there and who knows we're here and where we're from. And in between everything, he would tell us, you know, say very casually, okay, if you're lying, we'll kill you. So, and I'm holding my companion's hand, and he would ask us some questions. And sometimes my companion would answer first and. And then he would spank me and say, I'm talking to you, and make us both answer. And so that continued for a little while. At one point, our phone rang, and he panicked. Like, who knows you're here? Who would be calling you? And I could tell he got. He got excited and not excited in a happy way, excited in a, you know, frantic way. And then he assaulted us. So he lifted up the blanket that was covering us and lifted up our skirts and pulled down our garments. And in. In the state of Utah, it's considered object rape. So he used his fingers and his mouth. I was holding my companion's hand, so. And I could tell that it happened to me first. And then I could feel her squeezing my hand, knowing that it was happening to her. And then he masturbated on me. And again, you're not. You can't see anything. So you just have no idea what is going to happen next, which just. I don't know. I think of Maddie's story and the panic of being able to see everything that's going on versus the panic of not being able to see anything at all. And they're both horrifying in weird ways because I don't have a lot of visuals to go off of. It's just what I was feeling. So they were in our apartment for about an hour total. And that whole time, I was positive I was going to die because he told me over and over that he was going to kill us. And the things your brain does in a time like that, thinking about your family, hoping it doesn't hurt, hoping, you know, that he just gets it over with. Like, it's just. It puts you in a really bad place. He then told us that our neighbor owed them money for cocaine and that they were going to meet them and we were going to hear gunshots, and if we screamed, they would kill us, too, shoot us, too. So then we heard them shuffle through a few more things, and then it was total silence.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Real quick.

Camille Hunka [00:42:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] During the time where he's assaulting you and your companion, and even during that whole time you're lying there on the floor, are you praying? Are you thinking about Heavenly Father? Are you thinking about the protection that you felt you had been afforded? What types of thoughts as it relates to religion or spirituality or doctrine? Or is any of that going through your brain at the time?

Camille Hunka [00:42:28] For sure? I think. I think that was the beginning. Like, that was such a traumatic and also very profound moment where I actually felt nothing. Meaning, of course, I was praying and I felt nothing. I felt no peace. The only thing I felt when he was, like, in the middle of assaulting us was that I was able to be somewhat disconnected from my body in a way where I was in total survival mode at that point and just did not want him to kill me. So it felt like, you can just do whatever you need to do as long as you please do not kill us. And. But as far as.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] So you dissociate completely from your body.

Camille Hunka [00:43:18] Completely. As far as. Yeah, I felt absolutely no peace or protection or divine anything in that moment. It was just very clear to me that they were going to do whatever they wanted to do. And that, I think, has stayed with me, especially when people have mentioned how it could have been so much worse. And I always tell them it could have been. And it would have been if they had justice, decided to. To kill me or to kidnap me. And, you know, whatever they had decided to do, they would have successfully done. Nobody was coming to save us. Nobody came and intervened. So whatever they had wanted to do, they would have. They did, and they would have successfully done. And that is a very. That is a really difficult thing to process and acknowledge.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] And during that period and you're praying and you're trying to get an answer or support or protection and it doesn't come. Do you even have the presence of mind to sort of go to that next thought of, like, why am I not being protected? Where are you, Heavenly Father, any of that? Or is it too much of a blur to even be able to go to that next logical point of thought?

Camille Hunka [00:44:54] Right. I could not breathe because of the heat. And my. I had long dark hair and it was, like, in my face. And we have all these hot blankets over us. And I remember feeling like I was gonna suffocate. And aside from all of the things that were going on and the most prominent thought I had was that I was so sad. I was really sad. My parents were going to learn that my body was on this floor in Mexico. Like, I was murdered. And I just remember thinking of them and feeling just total devastation that. That, you know, that's how this was going to end. Do you imagine going home? At least I did. I think any missionary that's honest with themselves would say they thought about going home every day or imagined what that would, you know, ending your mission would feel like. And so to think that mine was going to end with my parents getting a call that their daughter was murdered, that's what was going through my head and hoping it didn't hurt, like, that was the extent of my thought process. Please Shoot me in the head and not somewhere else in my body where I'm going to survive it for a few minutes and be in pain. That's where I was.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Okay, go ahead. And you were talking about them leaving to go to the neighbors.

Camille Hunka [00:46:26] So they left and we were silent for a few minutes. And then I remember the first words my companion said. She said, I'm so scared. And I remember, like, there, because there was this break I went into full, like, we have to get out of here. And we are. We're going to run and we're going to get in a cab, which was. I mean, you're not. No cab driver is going to take you three and a half hours north. But in my head, I'm like, we are getting in a cabin and we are getting out of here. You know, the first thing we see, we're getting in it and we are getting out of here. So we waited, you know, maybe 10, 15 more minutes and just didn't hear anything. And I remember peeking out and our apartment was just like a scene out of a movie. You know, you're looking at, like, your bra next to you and your, you know, all of your books and all of your stuff is just scattered everywhere and your skirt is still up and your garments are still down and was just totally surreal. And I remember telling her, you know, that we needed to get out, peeked out, didn't see anybody, got up. And I remember I had my planner that was. I saw it on the bed and so I grabbed my planner and the first thing we did is we walked out and went on the roof and looked around to see, to, like, assess the situation. And it was so strange because it was a Tuesday. Imagine like a Tuesday morning at 11:30, like the, you know, it was quiet, it was a sunny, normal day. I remember when I heard a baby crying and feeling like somebody's normal life is resuming out there and we need to get out there. And we asked a man for help, but we probably looked insane because it's just Tuesday at, you know, 11:00am and we're. We look crazy. And he kind of looked at us and then kept walking. And so we just ran down the stairs and the gate was closed. But I remember there was like, a crowbar stuck in the gate. And I remember my companion took it and she slipped it under her skirt, which, like, could you. I mean, now I have to cope with humor. So that's such a crazy. Like, she slipped a crowbar under her skirt just in case we were going to have to fight with like, we would open the gate and they would be there, and we would start hitting them with the crowbar. Like, so surreal. But we opened the gate and no one was there, and we just started sprinting. And at that point, we're hysterical. Before that, I think we were just shocked and trying to, you know, be strategic and communicate quickly, and. And at that point, we were just totally hysterical. There was a little storefront in Mexico. Like, every few houses has a little store that they run out, probably similar to Guatemala. So we just ran in, and it was a woman who had. Who recognized us as missionaries. And, you know, we said, something happened. We need to use your phone. And she said, please, because our phone was stolen. And I called my old zone leader because that's the only number I had. And he thought I was laughing, so he was like, what's going on? I'm like, I need president's number immediately. And then I called our mission president, and he.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] So you didn't have your mission president's number?

Camille Hunka [00:50:03] I would have had it had our phone not been stolen. It was in your phone, but it wasn't memorized, so, no, I didn't have it.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Okay, so you called your mission president?

Camille Hunka [00:50:15] Called him. I could hear him talking to his wife, frantic. And then they immediately started.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] What did you tell him? How did you say it?

Camille Hunka [00:50:25] I don't remember. I think I remember using some strange phrase like they touched us to hopefully get the point across that. But I did not. Sexual assault was not even in my vocabulary at the time. Like, it was not on my radar, not in my vocabulary. It didn't even really occur to me that that's what had happened. And then he started calling local members that showed up pretty much immediately and took us to a stake center to wait while my mission president drove from his home.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] How far away was he?

Camille Hunka [00:51:08] We waited for, I think, three hours. So imagine. So it's my companion's first day in the mission field. Her and I are complete strangers. We just met the day before.

John Dehlin [00:51:23] She's from somewhere in Mexico.

Camille Hunka [00:51:24] She's from Mexico, new to this ward. So we don't know anybody. So. So you're in the stake center surrounded by people you don't know. They had taken the elders to go in to our apartment and gather everything into suitcases to bring it to us. And so we're sitting in the stake, which is a whole other. You know, I can't imagine how that felt for them to go in and see that. So we're just in the stake center, and I'm throwing Up, you know, from adrenaline and panic. And. We just waited and sorted through our things. And I remember touching my missionary things, feeling like, what is happening? Like, what just happened? And I also remember the elders asking us to sing hymns so that we would stay calm. And me like, I'm. I am not there. And I'm also going to throw this hymn book at you. You need to step away. I'm not going to.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] You're not there, meaning you didn't want to sing.

Camille Hunka [00:52:37] I don't want to sing hymns? No, I don't want to sing hymns. Like, do you understand what just. It was like, do you understand what just happened? You clearly don't. And clearly nobody, you know has given you any. I remember having to ask to use their phone so that I could call my old companion and have somebody to. Somebody familiar to talk to. So they just seemed totally. You know, they were in their own place doing. Trying their best to do what they thought would be appropriate, but just was a miss, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] So you didn't feel like seeing him? What did you feel like doing?

Camille Hunka [00:53:20] I have no idea. I was in shock, and I felt like throwing up, which is. You know, I was sick. I couldn't eat. I remember people brought a lot of food, and I remember thinking, there's no way I'm gonna eat for days. I can't eat. So I just. I don't. I just wanted to. I don't even know. I was just in shock.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] So when the mission president and his wife, I'm assuming, arrived, just him. Oh, his wife didn't come?

Camille Hunka [00:53:54] She didn't come? Well, no. Which I think she was just probably preparing the. She made us soup. So I think she was just in, like, prepare the house mode, you know? So he came, he hugged us right away, which I remember. And I wrote it like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this man knew to hug us when you're not supposed to. It just felt like such a. It just felt obviously so much more appropriate. Like, don't shake my hand and don't pat me on the back. I need. He said something like, I need to be a dad right now or something, that he was trying to be as human as possible.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] And you liked it?

Camille Hunka [00:54:43] Yeah, I. Like. I. Yeah, I was, you know, surrounded by strangers. He was the first person that I knew. And certainly, yeah, it felt much more appropriate than the alternative, which would be nothing or a handshake, Please don't shake my hand, you know? So we got in his minivan, and

John Dehlin [00:55:06] he didn't interview you.

Camille Hunka [00:55:07] Then no.

John Dehlin [00:55:08] Okay, just no, get in the van.

Camille Hunka [00:55:11] And I don't remember that drive. I remember we were with the elders too, the Zone leaders, because there was a Zone or a. Like a leadership meeting at the mission home the next day, so they were going to be traveling anyway. But I. I don't even remember that drive. I don't remember if we talked. I don't remember it. Okay, so.

Institutional Response and Leaving Mexico

John Dehlin [00:55:38] So take us through the kind of end of your time in Mexico.

Camille Hunka [00:55:44] Very bizarre to even. It makes me feel. It's so strange to think about. So that night we. He sat us down to document what had happened, which felt totally normal, like he would need to know the details of what happened. And at the time, it felt very important that I talked about it immediately, partially because that's how I cope. I need to talk about it. We called our parents. I called my dad because I knew my mom would. She wouldn't handle it well, and I didn't think my dad would either, but it just felt like a safer bet. And he was on his way home from church and from like a Tuesday night activity at our branch in Detroit. And then I called my brother because he had been a missionary, and I knew he. And at this point, it started occurring to me, like I might be going home. Like that might be a decision that I have to make or that will be made for me. So we talked to our families, and I remember my brother telling me he feels like I should probably come home. And me being like, whoa, that's so strange that he's giving me permission to do that. And then our mission president saying, please go to bed. Don't think about it. Don't feel like you need to make a decision, and don't set an alarm. Just go sleep. And then I woke up the next.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] When the mission president talked to you about everything, was that conversation okay for you?

Camille Hunka [00:57:21] Yeah, I don't. Again, I. I don't remember feeling. It just felt necessary, like, of course he would need to hear what had happened. And I remember him trying to process, like, you know, think about why it would have happened or how they would have gotten in. And because I didn't know, you know, I knew some of the interrogating. They asked who had dropped us off and named the car that dropped us off. So I knew they had seen us get out of that car. So he wanted to understand, you know, some details around that. Were we being followed? You know, what did they know about us? So I wasn't uncomfortable. It just felt appropriate. Of course, in retrospect, I Think there might have been a more appropriate way to do it, maybe including his wife? I don't know. But at the time, it was fine. Okay, so next day, I remember I come downstairs, I'm in pajamas, and the first thing he says to me is, he asks me if I'll step into another room. And I remember we were standing and. And he said, I talked to your stake president at home, and I talked to the area president, and I received an email from your parents. And collectively, we just have decided that you need to go home. We thought about the idea of sending you to therapy weekly at the missionary training center. I guess there was a therapist in Mexico City, but we decided that that didn't make sense. And so we're working on a flight right now. And I remember feeling, like, partially relieved that I did not have to make that decision, which Maddie and I have talked about since. You know, what would be best? Should the victim be able to make a decision? Should, you know, should that be made for her? Should they always be sent home? I was grateful that because I was so intensely in missionary mode that I think I would have said I should stay. I have this duty to stay. So he said, you're going home. And I remember he also recommended. Or he said, you know, if you want to be done, you can be done. But if you want to finish your last four months, I've recommended you for the Salt Lake City Temple Square Mission. And that was the first time where I was like, please don't say that to me, please. And I didn't. I didn't express this, but in my head, I'm thinking, please do not simultaneously tell me, you know, I can be done and then also plant this idea in my head that, you know, technically, I'm not done. There's this four months left, and I should probably finish it somewhere. It was just. It just put me in a bad place. And they just had no idea what to do with us. So I remember. So they brought my old companion in, and her. The person she was training was my new companions companion in the mtc. So it was like the four of us that knew each other had worked together, and it felt familiar. So they just wanted us to be with friends. You know, I shouldn't say friends. She's my friend. She's my good friend. And it felt like they just threw money at us. Like, what do you want to do? Do you want to go to the mall? Do you want to buy new luggage? Do you want to go sightseeing? And I was like, let's go sightseeing. Great. I'm leaving. I never got to see those ruins. Let's go. And so we went to these ruins. Like they rented a bus and we went to these ruins, and I have these terrifying pictures of me and my companion smiling at these ruins like we were in shock. And. And then we did go to the mall. I bought a shirt to go. I bought a shirt to. To go home in. And. And then we went to buy some souvenirs. And. And then that night, all of the male leadership in the mission was in the mission home for their leadership meeting. And I remember asking if I could say goodbye to them. And I was just in, you know, street clothes. And my mission president's wife said, hold on, let me ask the president, because you're in street clothes. So I want to make sure that's appropriate. And I remember being like, I'm gonna need to say bye. You know, who cares what I'm wearing? So he said some nice words to them about, you know, something's happened, and then started talking about me as a missionary to them. And I went and shook each one of their hands one by one. And. And then the next morning, I was on a plane.

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Any. Anything else about your time in Mexico that you want to say?

Maddy's Mission and Coming Home

Camille Hunka [01:02:20] It's so hard because when you. When your mission ends that way, you desperately, like, you need to work through that and cope with that, but you desperately want to hold on to the good things that happened. And there were so many, like my mission. My mission, it's. It's so confusing because I don't regret going. I had so many really good experiences, and I met so many wonderful people, and I love Mexico and love the Mexican people, and it was just a very profound, important experience for me. And so I. I feel it's necessary to include that as we, you know, as we talk about what happened, it's important to remember that I had, you know, I could elaborate on a hundred great, wonderful, hilarious experience. Everything is funnier in the mission because you're so bored and you have. There's no entertainment. So something that's not actually funny at all becomes the funniest thing that's ever happened to you or the people you meet that say insane things, you know, So I don't. I. I want to acknowledge that piece too, but certainly this is dominated that.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] So let's go ahead and continue with your story to the point where you get in touch with Maddie. So you get home. What happens?

Camille Hunka [01:03:48] Sure. So I'll just kind of speed through it. I get home January 2015, I start dating pretty much immediately. So I go home to Michigan, but I. My whole life other than my parents was in Utah, so I wanted to get out here really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] What about healthcare?

Camille Hunka [01:04:08] Oh, that part.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] So medical care?

Camille Hunka [01:04:11] Yeah. Yeah. So they. Someone from the missionary department was in contact with my parents in the day and a half that I was still on the mission before I flew home and essentially offered. They offered therapy forever for me and for my parents if we needed it.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] And I was a volunteer working at the.

Camille Hunka [01:04:34] I don't remember. It wasn't a volunteer. I just don't remember their title. And I got home and there was somebody in my branch that worked for LDS Family Services. So that was my first logical go to. Is like LDS Family Services. So I went to therapy a little bit while I was at home, but then I moved back out to Utah and I continued therapy in Utah, and it just immediately didn't feel like a fit. But I also had no idea what to do. And in Salt Lake City at LDS Family Services, there was a woman who knew a director in the missionary department in some capacity and said, you know, I think your story is worth discussing. He oversees the early release volunteers, and I think it's worth you discussing with him. So she said, if you could just, like, summarize your experience via email and I'll send it to him and connect you to. And this was in April of 2015. So I did that real quick.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] What about the option of continuing the four months to finish your mission? Like, how was your stake president cool receiving you? How did your ward receive you coming home early? Did you know? And then how did you make that decision about whether or not to continue? Was that all made right then in that first week or two or.

Camille Hunka [01:05:56] I think I would have. I mean, I think the decision was made the minute the words left his mouth. Like, that's not gonna happen for me. I still had.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Who your stake president?

Camille Hunka [01:06:12] No. When my mission president said, you know, I've recommended Temple Square, when he said that it was. I immediately knew your decision. I would never do that. Yeah, I would never.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Why didn't you want to continue

Camille Hunka [01:06:25] Temple Square, I think is particularly challenging for somebody who just lived in Provo for four years. Like, I'll see people I know every day, and I was just assaulted, and I'll have to smile and give tours like that felt. It felt ridiculous actually, to me at the time. Like, this is actually a ridiculous suggestion. I can't do that.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] So when he got home, did you have to tell your stake President. I'm not. I'm gonna go ahead and be done.

Camille Hunka [01:06:57] Yeah. And I think he expected it, and I think he actually recommended it. He and I, we. We weren't particularly close because I'd been at BYU for the previous four years, and I wasn't a super active teenager. But he was really nice, and he was really close with my dad because he. My dad was a branch president in Detroit at the time, so they worked closely together. So technically, I went home to the branch with my father as my branch president. So, you know, I. I wanted. It was very important to me that I was received as any other missionary would have been received. So I gave a homecoming talk. I reported to the High Council. All of that was important to me. I didn't want to be. I didn't want them to act like my mission wasn't done. So I wanted all of those closure moments.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] And you got them all.

Camille Hunka [01:07:47] I mean, in the worst way. You know, like, even I, I. A couple Christmases after I came home, I was at the airport going to Denver, where my husband is from, and there was a missionary coming home, and I completely lost it and was in bed for days. Like, that was such a trigger for me because it was this moment that I imagined my whole mission. And then I came home and it was like, my parents, you know, with this poster, they tried so hard and they're the best, and. But it wasn't a celebratory. It was horrifying and immediately, like, logistics of, you know, what do we need to do? How are you? What's going on? What's the plan? And I was just, you know, on the phone with 50 people explaining what was going on. And anyway, so.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] So not the return that you had dreamed of?

Camille Hunka [01:08:45] Certainly not, no. But I think from a local perspective, everybody was really nice. I do remember giving my talk and I just briefly said, you know, something terrible happened and that's why I'm home early. And. And I remember this guy at the branch coming up to me after I finished my talk, and he was like, come on, you can't say something terrible happened and then not tell us. And I remember being like, I actually can. I can not tell you. You know, I don't have to tell you anything. So people. People just don't know what to say. Like, somebody, a good friend of mine, made a joke, like, what did you sleep with a. You know, you make jokes about why you would have come home early. And he made sleep. Some sexual joke about me sleeping with a local member and then me being like, yeah, I was sexually assaulted by two men that broke into my apartment. And he was, you know, obviously horrified. And I. It was a lesson learned of, please don't. It's. This isn't a funny thing for anybody. So that was navigating. That was really horrible. And feeling like I owed it to people. Like, everybody needed to know I was not. I didn't come home because I did something wrong. I came home because I was assaulted. And the degree, like, the severity, they also needed to know, like, it wasn't, you know, nobody just like, grabbed my boob in the street. It was this full on hour long. You know, I thought I was gonna die. It was. I needed. I felt like I needed to justify why I was home to the, you know, dozens of people that reached out. And then there were people that didn't say a word to me because they had no idea what to say. And that was horrible. Not a word. Not. I'm sorry, not. You know, and then there were people from home that have no affiliation with religion whatsoever that were the best, like, I have. I don't understand any of this, but I'm so sorry that this happened to you. And. But I think the silence was the, you know, the most hurtful. And it was shut down in my mission. No one was allowed to talk about it. And so that created, unfortunately, a barrier to outreach to me. Nobody, you know, people didn't. It wasn't like the mission rallied around me and, you know, suddenly I'm cut off from this thing that was my life, and they're not allowed to talk about it. So they don't even know the details. And now they're not reaching out to me and, you know, supporting me and loving me, it was just silence.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] When I'm thinking about the rule that missionaries can't talk about it, I guess I'm imagining them saying, you deserve privacy and it's no one's story to share but yours. So no one's going to be talking about the fact that you and your companion were assaulted. So I can see a privacy justification for people not talking about it. But then to have nothing said leaves all that room for question and speculation. And then how does the word ever get out that there are safety problems or that this is a risk? So it.

Camille Hunka [01:12:14] Can you.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Have you thought about how that needle was trying to be thread and what. What was right or wrong about it or what could have been done better or.

Camille Hunka [01:12:23] Yeah, yeah. So I think the intentions were good, which I think the intent was privacy. If anybody would have asked me and if anybody knows me even a tiny bit, they know that I'm an open book. And I would have given permission for that to be discussed because, again, it was important to me that people knew what happened. I didn't quit early, of course. Right. And I. You know, I had been in this leadership position my whole mission, and I was 14 months out, so I was not like a likely candidate to suddenly leave the mission. So I think the intent was good, but it totally backfired and doesn't take into consideration how traumatic this can be for other people. Like my companion, who had been with me the previous six months, who was with Manigwala when the kidnappings happened. And hours after I went to the airport, she was sent back to Chilpancingo, where I was just assaulted.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] Okay, so that. So you're saying they didn't remove the missionaries from your area?

Camille Hunka [01:13:32] From my immediate area, which. Yes, they did. I mean, they didn't send people back to my immediate area. I think they waited a month, but

John Dehlin [01:13:41] then after a month, they did.

Camille Hunka [01:13:42] Yes, but even. I mean, her. Her apartment was maybe a mile away from. From my apartment where I was assaulted. The police were not called. There was no attempt to apprehend them or identify them or anything like that. And then you're sending her in, you know, just right there.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] Your former companion sent into a nearby area, correct? Within a month?

Camille Hunka [01:14:11] No, within hours. Within hours, yeah, within hours with my companion's MTC companion. So how they dealt with that? They were just with us, seeing us cry, going, you know, going sightseeing with us and taking us to the. The airport, and then they're on a bus, like, good luck. What that does to them, you know, it's not. Obviously, there. There's. There's. I think, a lot of trauma bonding that takes place when, you know, it doesn't mean that you were next to me when it happened, but if you saw me within hours or talked to me, like, you're connected to that forever, too. So I don't think it took into. I just think it was a really bad decision. You know, there was no help or support for the missionaries, the women specifically now staying in that mission. There was no conversation around, you know, why it might have happened or what they could do. I think the only discussion was that they asked missionaries to never leave their doors ajar, even if they're behind a gate or whatever, which had a whole other. Like, that's not why this happened, you

John Dehlin [01:15:24] know, as if it was your fault.

Camille Hunka [01:15:26] Right. It was just that. That's the Only thing we took from this. And I remember my mission president told me, you know, it's right after Christmas. So everybody says that these, that people, you know, they know that you've just received stuff. So people rob, you know, if there's more theft after Christmas. That was like the only, the only excuse or explanation I ever received.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] So in some ways, the mission just returned to business as usual, 100%.

Camille Hunka [01:15:55] What other choice is there? I mean, there are a lot of other choices, but not no reasonable choices at the time.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] So the services for you and for the missionaries who remained and the response in terms of trying to prevent future occurrences was just kind of none.

Processing Trauma, Marriage, and Spiritual Life

Camille Hunka [01:16:14] It was non existent. But I didn't even realize that until March when I moved back out from Michigan to Utah officially. And I received a call from Elizabeth Smart, who I had a friend who was roommates with her cousin, I think was the connection. And she kind of talked me through what to expect. And I remember thinking that was so amazing that she would call me. And then the next day, a volunteer from the early release department called me and just like fumbled through. It was such an awkward call. And now, you know, almost three months had passed and that was the first time I stopped and thought, what the heck is, what is your process? Like, what. What is actually going on? And why am I just lumped in? Like, there are a lot, you know, with the age change that you mentioned, a lot of people were coming home early for a variety of reasons, and it just felt like they put me in this queue of however many hundreds of people. And when they got to me, they got to me and they were like, oh, wow. Or how are you doing? And it was so. It just felt really fishy, like, what is actually going on? So that was the first time I was able to kind of process from a, you know, practical standpoint. Like, what resources do you have? What resources does my mission president have? What are the processes? What do they look like? How can I help? Basically, so that was kind of the start of it all. I had a meeting with the early release department in June of 2015, and I shared my story and gave them advice of things to do and not do. Like please don't ask about somebody's activity. How is church going? Like, totally inappropriate, not your business. And you can't call somebody two and a half months after a violent sexual assault. And it probably shouldn't be like a random volunteer. You know, I don't know why somebody, a general authority, can't pick up the phone for five minutes and validate what happened to me after me dedicating, you know, 14 months of my life to this cause, and you don't have the time to just say you're sorry? It just seemed impossible to me that that was what was going on.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] So you didn't meet with the general authority upon returning home?

Camille Hunka [01:18:58] Oh, no, I wasn't contacted by anybody. My mission president called me. But then you are immediately, like, delegated to your local stake president and my dad, my branch president. But then I moved to Utah, and I'm in random wards, and they're supposed to have the, you know, ability to work through this with me, and I have to tell each one what's going on. And I literally. I was in a ward.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] So you're explaining to bishop after bishop.

Camille Hunka [01:19:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] What talk about that.

Camille Hunka [01:19:35] Like, you know, I struggled with activity pretty much immediately. I felt horrible going to church. I would hear, hear RMs sharing these dumb stories about their mission or glorifying these crazy mission stories. And truly, like, I obviously sound angry as I talk about. I wanted to give everyone the finger. Like, you have no idea what, what.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] What about these missionary stories made you angry?

Camille Hunka [01:20:02] Just feeling like part of it was a sense of loss for me, like, that they are able, that their mission is preserved and, you know, with a bow, exactly how they expected it. They went to the cool place, they had normal missionary experiences. They had one or two of those crazy, you know, this crazy thing happened to me that's kind of exciting that people are like, whoa, that mission story. And then they went home and had the homecoming, and now their life continues as normal. So part of it is, is, you know, envy and. And feeling that sense of loss for me. And also hearing the way the gospel's manipulated to fit people's stories. Like, I remember somebody talking about. I think I shared this with you, somebody hiking, and they were falling down this cliff and they were praying and this rock appeared and like, they caught their foot on the rock and so they. They stopped. And, you know, they were so grateful that Heavenly Father heard their prayer. And I'm like, if anybody is deserving of a prayer heard, it seems like it would be a missionary. And mine wasn't heard. Nobody came in any way to rescue me. So it was like, how do you. How do you. How do I justify or how do I rationalize the stories you're sharing with my own experience? Like, it just didn't fit. But I was in a ward near in. It was a ward at the U. I was living really close to the U. And, you know, I was only there for a few months. It was one in the process of me getting engaged, and which happened pretty quickly after I came home. And just a few months ago, my husband and I bought a house, and we were looking. We're at a furniture store, and I recognized someone at the furniture store, and it is that bishop. And he comes up to me, like, you look familiar. And I'm like, so do you. And he says, oh, you are Camille. You served in Mexico. And I'm just like, there are these men walking around that, like, know these things about me. It's just so uncomfortable. And I run into you at a furniture store in Salt Lake. Like, that's so uncomfortable for me.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] And then you had to tell. Was it. So it wasn't. What was it like to have to tell multiple bishops in sequence your story? Was that a problem or hard for you? Just.

Camille Hunka [01:22:34] I think the hard part is that. So I. I married the. I had met a boy in my new student orientation group at BYU my first day, and him and I were really good friends for years, and he's now my husband. So I had known him for six years, and we dated pretty much immediately when I got home from my mission, and we got engaged in July. And like I said, I struggled with activity pretty much immediately. And part of it, which I think Maddie can relate to, is just the trauma of, you know, sexual assault on a mission is very unique, and it's connected to church. So you'll hear, you know, even, like, be obedient and you'll be protected. You hear this rhetoric that no longer works for you, and it becomes an unsafe place for you to be, and you don't want to be there. And I have the ability to say, I don't have to be here. And so. But you're getting married in the temple, so having these conversations with bishops and feeling like you need to justify your. You know, you've been through it, too. Like, your. Your activity and explaining, you know, I want to get married in the temple. This is what's going on. This is the trauma I've been through. This is why I can't sit through church and them, like, fumbling through, you know, what that looks like for them as a bishop and figuring out if they can still give me a recommend. And so it's just so awkward.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] And I'm trying to imagine them asking you questions about the law of chastity.

Camille Hunka [01:24:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] As a sexual assault survivor.

Camille Hunka [01:24:13] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] Like, I would not want to ask one of those questions.

Camille Hunka [01:24:18] Yeah. And I. I have. I think I got To a point pretty quickly where I felt like, you know, as a local bishop, you probably don't want to be doing this, and I don't want to be talking about this, and you have no idea what I. You know, you'll never understand what that was like. And so, like, let's just move. Let's just move through this. But it was not. It was not great.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] So what was going on in your spiritual life at this time?

Camille Hunka [01:24:52] That.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] That.

Camille Hunka [01:24:54] I think it was just conflict of me holding on and being, you know, fresh off my mission and trying to cope with what had happened and understanding, you know, trying to rationalize, you know, what I talked about, like, this doctrine or these ideas that you have been told over and over. And then this assault happens. And. But people are still saying, you know, this is part of some sort of plan. And me feeling like, never say that to me or anybody else again.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] They're saying your sexual assault was part of a plan.

Camille Hunka [01:25:29] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] Like, tell me how that conversation goes,

Camille Hunka [01:25:34] people. There's a need for people, individual people, to be comforted for their own sake. So I don't think they were trying to comfort me. I think they would say things like, you know, heavenly Father loves you and he has a plan for you. And that was just their way of reinforcing and making this work within their own belief system.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] After they find out you were sexually assaulted.

Camille Hunka [01:25:55] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] They tell you that Heavenly Father has a plan for you.

Camille Hunka [01:25:59] Absolutely. And I thought, you know, people have agency. It's like I started feeling frustrated immediately. Like, any good thing that happens to me or that happened to be to me on my mission, I have to attribute it to a blessing. But every bad thing and my assault that happened, I have to attribute to agency. So it's like, it just. It just starts feeling off, you know, And I think I felt that immediately. I just felt like this is off. And I also, you know, when you factor in my upbringing, like, I was not raised in this orthodox Mormon family, and this, My mission was really the only time I was 100 active in every way you could be. I'm naturally a pretty liberal person. And so when you combine all of that and then the assault pretty quickly upon coming home, I just felt like I'm going to have to reassess everything. Everything.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] But you still got married in the temple.

Camille Hunka [01:27:10] I still got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] How many months? Why are you smiling?

Camille Hunka [01:27:21] Because I think there are things that I did the first year I was home that I don't know if I would do again. I not. Not getting Married. But getting married in the temple, I think you're just still. Like I said, you're still in that mode. And this is like, that's how you get. Is there another way to get married? Isn't that how you get married? So. But I remember my husband and I kind of feeling like we knew. I mean, part of the reason we married each other is, the reason we bonded so quickly at byu, is that we both were like, oh, you were crazy in high school. I was, too. And you felt like, okay, here's my safe place at byu. Like, we're not doing those things right now, but at least we know that we can be ourselves around each other. That was so important to be me. And I think part of the reason we got married is we knew that we would. We would bend with each other. So, you know, if we decided in a year that we were. We couldn't do it anymore together, we would not do it anymore. And if I said, you know, I. I need this to be a part of my life, he would have said, let's do it. And so I think we knew and felt safe there, where we would adapt to each other's, you know, belief systems, wherever we would meet each other, where we were.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] And looking back, you might not have been married in the temple. Why?

Camille Hunka [01:28:52] I just. I think you. Part of, like, my grieving and growing process from this is feeling like I'm actually entitled to make my own decisions and. And take control of my life back. And I don't need to follow these things or traditions just because somebody tells me that that's the right thing to do. If I don't feel like it's the right thing to do, I don't have to do it. But it takes so long to get. It's so painful to get there. If there's a, you know, a clash with the LDS faith, it's very painful. So I just think if I'd been honest with myself and if my husband had been honest with himself, we would have said, we don't really want to do that. It was a great day. Like, we both. I. Neither of us can remember one thing from the ceiling. Not one word. We just remember being happy. And so it's not like it was a, you know, horrible day. It was. It was wonderful. But I think we. I don't know if we would have done it had we been true to ourselves.

Healing, Support, and Finding Other Survivors

John Dehlin [01:30:13] So, Camille, after your temple marriage and you were married, how many months after you finished your mission?

Camille Hunka [01:30:20] 11.

John Dehlin [01:30:21] 11 months. Okay, so you were engaged three months.

Camille Hunka [01:30:25] So I Got engaged. So I got home in January. I was engaged at the end of July, and I was married on Halloween of 2015.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] Okay. So within. With. Before years up in the temple, which felt.

Camille Hunka [01:30:39] I feel like I have to give this disclaimer that when you. When you and Maddie and I have had this conversation, when you have been assaulted, trust becomes so. I mean, it's everything to you. And the man I married, I had known for six years, and I trusted. You know, I trusted entirely. So I think that that led to a really quick. Yeah, Quick marriage. I had known him, I trusted him, I loved him, and that was really all I needed.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] I don't know how much you'll be comfortable talking about this, but I would only imagine that experiencing a sexual assault makes. Could be complicating in an early marriage, because all of a sudden now sexual activity enters into your life as a married Mormon, and you're living with that kind of untreated history of sexual assault.

Camille Hunka [01:31:54] Yeah, and I had. I remember a friend's mom told me, you're gonna have problems with intimacy. And me feeling like, that's fascinating that you would say that. I. Without going into too much detail, I had. We talked about high school a little bit where I was a normal high schooler. So I'll just say that that wasn't my first experience with intimacy. So I think it was fine. I'll just say that it. It didn't. I think actually initially it was totally fine. I think there have been times where maybe it's. There have been, especially like when I'm in the middle of these meetings at the church with Maddie, where it felt maybe like more of an issue, but it was just an emotional feeling, like I wanted to disconnect from everything. But initially I didn't feel like it was a factor at all.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Okay. And that's good, at least. It could have been worse.

Camille Hunka [01:33:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] And so you got that call from the volunteer at some point. You had the offer to have some. Did the therapy sessions continue?

Camille Hunka [01:33:17] So I. Yeah, so I went to therapy before my wedding, kind of semi regularly, but now I'm in full. Like, I'm getting married. I'm so in love. And that's my world, you know?

John Dehlin [01:33:34] So did you feel like your trauma got sufficient treatment?

Camille Hunka [01:33:38] Certainly not. I just didn't even acknowledge it. No.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] So your therapy wasn't healing from trauma? It was. What?

Camille Hunka [01:33:45] Well, my. Sorry. In. In therapy, I just. It just felt kind of pointless, like we would kind of go through the motions for an hour. I don't feel like I was given, and it hadn't really evolved quite yet. Again, it kind of felt like I came home, you know, I'm getting married. So even processing that almost felt like it was on hold. So therapy didn't feel very productive. And then it got to a point where I thought, this is actually really unproductive because the tools you're using are the same tools that completely messed with me on as a missionary.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] So as an LDS family services therapist here in Salt Lake, I went to

Camille Hunka [01:34:24] one in Detroit, one in Salt Lake, and one in Provo.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] And what were the tools they were offering you?

Camille Hunka [01:34:30] They're. They just applied the gospel in every way because it's part of their, you know, technique. So talking about the atonement and how much heavenly Father loves me and just reiterating those things, it just wasn't. It just wasn't what I. I don't want to talk about the atonement or I don't want to talk about any of that as related to my assault, because like I said, assault on a mission is unique. And

John Dehlin [01:35:03] what does Jesus in the atonement have to do with your healing from your assault? I'm just curious. In the minds of your therapists,

Camille Hunka [01:35:11] you know, when you are going through a difficult time in life, you should rely on things like prayer and access the atonement.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] So the therapist is saying, pray more. Get closer to Jesus. That'll help you heal.

Camille Hunka [01:35:30] Yeah, certainly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] And that feels like what to you, as a sexual assault survivor, being told, draw near into Christ to heal

Camille Hunka [01:35:43] it just again, because I had done everything I could do and then was assaulted. It just. I. I felt very bitter. Like, that's not how this works. You know, it's not like I give and then he's willing to come in and. And heal. Like, sometimes you give everything you can and it still doesn't work out. So I don't. I don't. I just don't need this right now. I have severe anxiety, so I need you to provide me with some, you know, helpful techniques for combating that anxiety. Or, you know, we need to talk about what has been triggering, or you need to be okay with the fact that I can't go to church all the time because it's painful for me. So it just felt. It just felt like there was an expectation that I was going to bring X, Y and Z to the table, meaning I'm an active Mormon and I'm bringing my belief system that aligns with yours to the table. And so you're going to equip me with the same gospel tools to help me navigate this. And it just wasn't. It just wasn't working. So I get married. I'm a newlywed, and then I get this text from my friend that says, you know, there was a woman from my home ward that was assaulted in Bolivia. Would you be willing to reach out?

John Dehlin [01:37:07] Okay, so you. So had you done anything else to try and fix the church or change their policies? Had they done anything else to reach out to you?

Camille Hunka [01:37:16] I don't think so. I. I went to Mexico. I had a friend getting married, and I went in 2016, and I met up with my companion. Um, and so, like I said, I think I was focused on me. I was focused on being a newlywed. I was working full time, and I wasn't thinking about any. I just needed to kind of put that away for a while.

John Dehlin [01:37:44] So you kind of put it down for a while. Okay.

Camille Hunka [01:37:47] But then I get, you know, I get this text. I reach out to Maddie. Maddie and I exchange a few emails. She's coming out to BYU at the time. I'm living in Pro Provo.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] And so a friend texts you.

Camille Hunka [01:37:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] And sorry, you already said this, but I'm just sorry.

Camille Hunka [01:38:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] So a friend texts you and says what?

Camille Hunka [01:38:05] She says, so this is a friend and a co worker at byu. She says, I have some. My dad let me know that somebody in his ward in Washington recently returned home from Bolivia and was also sexually assaulted. Would you be willing to reach out? So I composed this email to Maddie. She gave me her email address, which I think Maddie gave permission. I hope I do. And my email just basically said, I don't know the details of what happened. I'm so sorry. I went through something similar. I'm available for as much or as little as you want at any time. And that was kind of the extent of it.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] And emotionally for you, what was it like to finally hear from another victim that someone had reached out to you and for you to find out that you're not alone? You now had someone else to talk to about this? What was that like to hear about the possibility of actually talking to somebody else who might be able to at least somewhat understand? What was that like for you?

Camille Hunka [01:39:20] It was really simultaneously really powerful and also totally infuriating. Like, why is this happening? Like, why is this happening? And why is there not some sort of network for us to be able. Like, this was such a fluke. I happen to have a really good friend who happened to tell her dad about my experience, and he happened to connect the dots. When Maddie came home and, and she happened to reach back, you know, so it, it just felt like it. And people won't, people will say fluke isn't the right word. It wasn't a coincidence. And you know, maybe it wasn't, but I think, you know, certainly there was no network that was connecting victims or survivors after the mission together. So it was just mostly sad. Like this sucks happened to me. Now it happened to you. This is why, you know, we have this common thing now. We will never view the world the same way. It changes you in every way forever. And people just want you to move on because that's more comfortable for them. It just, it, it was just so sad. And I felt, you know, like I, if anyone has, advantage isn't the right word. But I felt like, okay, I am somewhat equipped to handle this. I had already been through school, you know, I was 22 when I went on my mission, so I'm not 19. I already had Spanish as, you know, this second language for the most part. And I came from this, you know, non orthodox, really understanding family that is able to understand me at every, you know, stage I'm in. And then I looked at Maddie and I was just like, I just truly felt like she is going, you know, she's this, she's young, I think. How old are you? 20. I mean she's this 20 year old girl still in like starting college basically or halfway through or whatever. I remember some of her initial questions to me were about dating and we'll talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Yeah, but, but just so I don't want to, I don't want to, I want to follow that in the sequence. But, but just this idea of like you're alone for a year, however long, not having anyone to really relate to or just talk to and then all of a sudden it's almost like light breaking through. It's sad, but it's also like it's.

Camille Hunka [01:42:00] Yeah, it was just. Yeah, it was, it felt like, okay, now I have, you know, she'll get it. Nobody else will get it. Even my companion who was with me. Like, you just, it's. I think, I don't know it. I just looked at her like, she'll understand. Yeah. Sexual assault happens to so many people. I can't relate to people being sexually assaulted by, you know, husbands or boyfriends or. It's just so foreign to me in the same way that they can't understand how, how like manipulated you can feel as a missionary when that happens. So it felt like, yeah, for the first time I have somebody who will understand.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Well, Camille, I can't thank you enough for your willingness to share such sensitive and difficult things with us. And this is sort of. We're wrapping up sort of part one of this interview where you tell your story. We're going to go to Maddie and have her tell hers. Then we're going to come back and talk about what you guys have done since then. But for those who have been with us so far and have heard your story, how do you want to kind of conclude this segment? Is there anything else you want to add or any. Any way you want to kind of conclude this segment?

Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Camille Hunka [01:43:21] I think. I don't know if it would conclude this segment. I think in general, my. I have always felt since coming home that there have been two sides of my story and one or two different ways of healing that needed to take place. And one is that I have always thought that missionaries are. Missions are unsafe and missionaries aren't as safe as they could be. And considering the resources the church has, it just. It always felt like that was something that I needed to take on, like I had this duty to help them. And then on the other hand, I've. I need to continue to heal and cope with what happened. And I've watched it affect my life at every stage. You know, from getting married to I'm a mom, so having a son and, you know, starting new jobs, buying a house, like, at every stage, it affects my life. And so this. Participating in this podcast, I think has. It's been important in fulfilling the healing myself, being validated that what happened was actually big enough to acknowledge, like, somebody is able to acknowledge that what happened was not right. So I appreciate the opportunity to do that.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] So talking about it is helpful in the healing process for you, certainly, and maybe making it not just about your own healing, but maybe turning the purpose of it into being able to try and help others.

Camille Hunka [01:45:07] Correct? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:07] Is that what you're saying?

Camille Hunka [01:45:08] Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] Well, Camille, thanks so much for your willingness. And what we're going to do now is we're going to end part one. Thanks for joining us for part one. And we're going to come right back for part two with Maddie and we're going to hear about her own story as well for part two. And then for part three, we're going to bring them both back and we're going to talk about what they've done since then, what happened when they tried to make changes at church headquarters, how that was received, what was positive about those interactions, what wasn't so positive what changes have been made. And then we'll conclude with kind of how they're doing now and kind of where things stand with the church. So thanks again, Camille, and join us right on the flip side for part two of this epic interview with Camille Hunka and Maddie Secot about sexual assault as a missionary in the Mormon Church.

Camille Hunka [01:46:11] Thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Wiser is a song written and performed by Mormon Stories listener Russell Ash, a message intended for his children to have love and kindness be their guiding star.