Welcome and Introduction to Matthew and Elizabeth

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1412

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 19, 2021, and I am super excited for today's interview. It's one that I've wanted to do for at least a year, if not more. Today we're going to be interviewing Matthew and Elizabeth Shakespear. This is one in a series of episodes that I've done on Mormon Stories where we interview former Mormon bishops. And this is interesting and different in several ways. So we're going to be talking about Matthew Shakespear's life growing up in the church, getting married in the temple, having children, doing all the things that lead up to him being called as a Mormon bishop around 2015 timeframe, correct?

Matthew Shakespear [00:00:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:44] And that's kind of one angle. And then what we're going to be talking about is what happens when Bishop Shakespear starts to learn about Kate Kelly and John Dehlin and Bill Real and Mormon Stories podcast and all the issues around Mormon faith crises while he's serving as a bishop. And that's kind of one part of the story. And then while he's serving as bishop, he begins counseling Elizabeth, who is a member of his congregation or of his ward.

Matthew Shakespear [00:01:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And as he finds his faith sort of unraveling, he also, I don't want to. I don't know if I want to, say, falls in love or becomes emotionally attached to Elizabeth, who is not his wife at the time, but who's a ward member, and you know what that's like. And eventually, Matthew ends up asking to be released as bishop, and he and his wife at the time end up divorcing, and Matthew ends up marrying Elizabeth, and then they have their journey from there. So this is going to be a really interesting and epic Mormon Stories podcast interview about Mormonism, about serving in the church, about faith crises, about what do you do when you're a bishop having a faith crises? It's going to be about divorce. It's going to be a reconstruction. It's going to be about finding love. And of course, there's Elizabeth's story, which is her own journey, which is separate from Matthew's, which we're going to weave in as well. So with all that as an intro, I'm super excited for today's interview. And without any further ado, welcome Matthew and Elizabeth, to Mormon Stories podcast.

Matthew Shakespear [00:02:17] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Great to have you guys.

Matthew Shakespear [00:02:19] It's good to be here. It's kind of, well, surreal in many respects. So looking forward to it and nervous as well at the same time. Certainly wanting to share A story that I think will be interesting. I hope it will be helpful for some people. I hope it's, most importantly, intellectually honest. You know, I don't want to tell stories to try and pick myself to look.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:02:53] Flawless. You don't want to look flawless?

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Yeah, exactly.

Matthew Shakespear [00:02:56] But certainly want to acknowledge, I guess, just the humanity that exists in all of us and that. Yeah, I mean, I think what we'll probably see here as we share our story is that, you know, a case could probably be made for staying closer and staying in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the case will also be able to be made for moving away from it based on our experiences. So. And that's, I guess, the paradox of the human condition. Right. And so I'm opening, I guess, opening my heart, realizing that there will be critics who, at least I think they'll probably be critics who would like to speak harshly about me and my experience, and that's okay. But I'm willing to jump into the arena and be real and be honest. And I guess that's what I hope for today.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] And

Matthew Shakespear [00:04:16] I'm an emotional guy, so be prepared for maybe some of that beautiful. What do you have to say, honey?

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Anything you want to add, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:04:27] Well, I mean, just more on that fact, I guess, is to say that obviously the way that something is framed is important, and there are infinite ways to frame something. And that is kind of one of the things that the heart of the matter of everything for me is honesty. And it's even sad that we can break it down into what's called intellectual honesty, and that's kind of the hot word these days. But, you know, how we frame things, how we share them, how we color it, you know, at the core, I think we all know what is true and what is real. But, man, life is complicated, and we want to be kind and we want to be benevolent. But also, that means that we're often not honest and we're not real, you know, and we excuse that, we hide it, we color it, cover it up, you know, and sometimes we pretend like it's to be kind and benevolent. I don't think that that's always true either. So I think that I have a lot of respect for Matthew's courage, and he has a lot more at stake than I do when it comes to the culture of Mormonism, you know?

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:05:42] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Well, I'll just say it's hard just to be public, especially if you're generally a private person. And then within the Mormonism realm, high demand Religions, people are terrified to like a fake, you know, to friend me on Facebook or even like a Facebook post I make, let alone come on Mormon Stories podcast and tell their story. But then when you add to that having been a bishop, and then you add to it, you know, having fallen in love, falling in love with someone else while you're married, while you're a bishop, and, and the fact that there are all sorts of talk and rumors that would surround that.

Matthew Shakespear [00:06:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] You know, especially around, you know, allegations of infidelity or whatever. Like it's. That's super. Who does that? Almost nobody. And, and just being willing to openly and candidly discuss with sensitivity head on in. In those multiple complex contexts is just a. It's a moving act of courage and honesty and bravery. So hats off to you guys before we even begin. Thank you.

Matthew Shakespear [00:06:56] Yeah. You know, I'm reminded that this Pemachodran quote, I guess I'm probably going to butcher it, but it's something that only when we're willing to face annihilation over and over again do we really find out what substance is really there as a person. So here I am, opening up to some annihilation.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:07:16] Maybe.

Matthew Shakespear [00:07:17] But I'm happy to be here.

Matthew's Mormon Upbringing and Early Faith

John Dehlin [00:07:19] All right. All right, so let's dig in. Maybe let's start. Matthew, if it's okay, let's start with your story. Kind of a Mormon story.

Matthew Shakespear [00:07:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] How do you get from childhood to becoming a Mormon bishop? Something that a few of us got to actually accomplish. How did that happen?

Matthew Shakespear [00:07:39] Oh, wow. Well, you know, I grew up in a little town, a little community in southern Utah, you know, in a multi generational Mormon family. You know, there's some parts of my, you know, some branches of my family tree that go back to kind of the Restoration, Joseph Smith time period. The Shakespear name kind of joined in a little bit later. They came across the plains on a. On a train rather than on a wagon. But some other parts of my family were maybe more pioneer stock.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] Um, would the Shakespear's be related to William Shakespear?

Matthew Shakespear [00:08:23] Yeah. So we are related. We can trace our roots back to Stratford on Avon, but not directly through the playwright. We come kind of through his uncle's line. But definitely related. We don't. It's funny, one branch of my family a few generations back has the E on the end, like the playwright spelt it, the old English spelling. And then my side of the family does. I say the E fell off the ocean when they immigrated to the US but we are still, all still related, all through the same kind of Family line, small community. Where? Basically the community of Tropic, Utah. Where's Tropic? It's down near Bryce Canyon National Park. So if you were to go to Bryce Canyon national park and look off down into the valley below the national park, there's a small community, about 300 people. That's tropic.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:09:24] Not tropical at all.

Matthew Shakespear [00:09:25] Not tropical at all. But it's where I grew up. It's where my father grew up, and it's where his father grew up. So my family has generational ties to the community.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] What was the profession?

Matthew Shakespear [00:09:41] So my father was a high school science teacher and my grandfather was kind of did a little bit of everything. He did some cattle ranching. He ran a coal mine with his brothers. He worked for the Forest Service as well. He contracted with the Forest Service to spray trees, beetle trees and that kind of stuff. So he did a little bit of everything. Whatever it took to put bread on the table. My dad did also continue the family legacy of running beef cattle. So he had a small cattle ranch that kept us boys, children busy as we grew up. Didn't really make a lot of money, but it kept us busy and taught us how to work. So. But my family name. Just had a strong presence in the

John Dehlin [00:10:40] community

Matthew Shakespear [00:10:42] and a good reputation. My uncle, my dad's older brother, served as bishop in the ward there. My dad served as bishop in the ward. My great, great grandfather was one of the first missionaries that left from the Tropic ward to serve as a missionary. So a big, you know, multi generational kind of expectation. And that's okay. I mean, there wasn't anything wrong with that. In fact, I loved it growing up in that way. High school, it's called Bryce Valley, okay, Bryce Valley High School. So it combines, you know, the, the, the park Service has the housing there. So it combines the families that live there as well as what's called Bryce Canyon City now, which basically composes Ruby's Inn down there near Bryce and then Henryville, Cannonville and Tropic all go into that high school. I graduated with a class of 22 people.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Oh, wow, that's super small.

Matthew Shakespear [00:11:49] Super small.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] So dang.

Matthew Shakespear [00:11:53] Yeah, one ward, a big ward. I mean, you know, all 300. Pretty much everybody in town was a member of the church. Very supportive. I mean, you know, the, the, the, the elderly people in town loved the youth, they cared. And, you know, they really just supported one another. I think it's the same way even now, you know, I mean, it's just a really tight knit community like any Family in a way that has their ups and downs, their, their arguments and so forth. But in the end, The people of that community, it was really a charmed place to grow up. And they were really just supportive. You know, it was, you know, the, the, the older women in the, in the church were always, you know, encouraging and helpful. And, you know, they would, if you were a, you know, a priest and you were blessed in the sacrament, they would come up to you and say, oh, you say that prayers. You know, you say the sacrament prayers. So well, you're, you're, at least in my experience anyway, they would do that. And I really, of course, that really stroked the ego. Right. It really helped me feel good and felt like I was achiever, an achiever in, in the system. Right. And, and you know, you would appreciate it too, John. The, the big sport in town was basketball. I'm relatively tall and an okay basketball player. And so I felt in many respects as a youth, kind of like, well, I guess a star in some ways. Right. So well respected because of my family name. I tried to do what was right and tried to look good. But, you know, I mean, with that also comes this idea of wanting to look good. And I think this is an important part of the whole theme of what we want to share today is that in the process of that, sometimes we are, as human beings are willing to share that maybe white lie, what you could say is maybe a, a slight deception to make yourself look better than you really are.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:14:23] I think it's important to note that these are second half of life realization.

Matthew Shakespear [00:14:28] Absolutely.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:14:28] I think, you know, this is, this doesn't come easily. And people go the whole second half of their life without reconciling the truth of that, too.

Matthew Shakespear [00:14:36] And so, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] I mean, that goes to Richard Rohr. Is this Mormon stories? We've talked about him like two or three episodes in a row now.

Matthew Shakespear [00:14:45] Oh, is that so?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:14:46] Yeah, that's probably where we got Janice

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Spengler on and she talked about him and.

Matthew Shakespear [00:14:50] Oh, that's right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:14:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Yesterday's interview did too. Anyway.

Matthew Shakespear [00:14:53] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, those are realizations that come as you grow and as you develop as a human being.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:15:00] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:15:00] You look back on experiences and go, wow, that's where, you know, where my ego.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:15:05] Well, if you're awakening, it happens. That's my insert there.

Matthew Shakespear [00:15:10] Yeah. So, I mean, not to say that I was just a bald face, blatant liar, but certainly I did like to look good. Right. And this is realizations that I look back on, but they're Real. And I think it's important to realize that maybe sometimes when you're in a system with high expectations, when you don't quite meet those. My, at least maybe my personality certainly played a propensity to want to be a pleaser. I was number two in a family of six children, but my particular personality was certainly want to please, to not make waves, to be seen doing the right thing. Even though maybe sometimes if I could get away with it, I might investigate something different and hope I didn't get seen or caught or maybe say the little white lie to get away with it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:16:13] But you were normal.

Matthew Shakespear [00:16:14] But I was normal. I think it's normal human development. Right, right. But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Okay, so I'm assuming in terms of your family practice, your family's practice of Mormonism, there's always the scripture study, the family prayer, the family home evening attend church attendance every week. Like those are some of the standards that families strive for.

Matthew Shakespear [00:16:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] What was your family's level of orthodoxy and what was your family's religious practice?

Matthew Shakespear [00:16:42] Yeah, I would say quite, quite orthodox. Although, you know, we really struggled in my parents home with a consistent scripture study. There are times where we'd try and we'd push real hard. Early mornings, getting ready for school, we'd read from the Book of Mormon primarily, it wasn't consistent in that regard, but we typically would definitely have a family night, family home evening. That was quite consistent throughout my growing up. After my paternal grandfather passed away, I was probably three years old, but a few years following that, my grandmother Marian, she went on a mission as a senior sister. But a high level of orthodoxy, I would say, you know, I mean, I think we as a family identified as, as a family that, that was trying to do it. Right. And you know, as a teenager, your

John Dehlin [00:17:46] dad was bishop at some point.

Matthew Shakespear [00:17:47] My dad served as bishop during the period of time when I was basically a teenager, probably from when I was 11 years old till I was 15, 16.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Okay, that's intense.

Matthew Shakespear [00:17:57] That was. That certainly had its own little level of difficulty in a way. Right. So that was kind of hard because, you know, as a teenage boy and you're curious and interested in things, you know, it was really hard to feel comfortable, like I could approach my dad, who was the bishop, and be honest about some of those things, some of those issues.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] So do you want to talk about the, I mean, you're kind of talking a bit about, as you would say, Elizabeth, kind of healthy normative exploration as a lesson. Do you want to talk about kind of what types of things yeah, sure, I will.

Matthew Shakespear [00:18:41] Yeah. Let me just finish one thought because just to kind of, I guess, show the family environment that. The extended family environment, you know, all of my dad's brothers, five of them served as bishops at some point in time. One was a stake president. Later on served as a mission president.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:19:02] So.

Matthew Shakespear [00:19:03] And, you know, during that period of time, so we're Talking like early 90s, you know, the mission farewell, when a missionary was going to leave, they would have a program basically, that was dedicated to that missionary going on a mission, and they would speak and maybe their family would participate in the program at sacrament meeting. And that was a big thing because I had a lot of older cousins and we went to every one of those. We would travel up to Bear River City or to Cedar City. I mean, we would travel and go to those. And it was kind of a traditional thing that developed where all of the men in the family would go up and share a musical number of Elders of Israel, you know, four part harmony, men's chorus kind of thing. But it was all of my cousins and my uncles, you know, and so, yeah, it was a powerful family.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] Kind of a priesthood, patriarchy, legacy.

Matthew Shakespear [00:20:01] Absolutely. Definitely. Definitely. I would characterize it as that. So.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] But in a positive, seemingly positive way,

Matthew Shakespear [00:20:09] it felt very positive and very affirming and very powerful to me.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:20:14] So as far as maybe some pressure. Definitely some pressure. Yeah. I mean, pressure to be part of it, pressure to fit into that, Pressure to be what's expected.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:20:24] So, yeah, my teenage exploration into sexuality is probably like a very, very typical one. I remember it was actually when my older brother turned 12, he came home with this little pamphlet from White K. Packer, the little Factories pamphlet you've talked about a little bit before. But it basically describes the idea of, well, the function of, you know, of the body, of the testicles, of, you know, this whole puberty idea, and what happens, you know, nocturnal emissions. But then you certainly don't want to do things that would cause your body to ramp up its sexual function and desire. You wouldn't want to masturbate. I mean, it was all in code. It wasn't explicitly said. My brother left that little pamphlet laying around, so I would have been 10 years old. And I was. I read that and I was like, wow, that's so interesting. But what does he. What exactly does he mean? You know, it was a matter of curiosity for me. I'm a very curious person, really love to investigate things. And so that kind of, in a funny way, piqued my curiosity. I would Say my. My exploration to sexuality was frustrating in a way, but it's not. I don't think it's much. Very different than many people of my generation.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:21:49] In the church.

Matthew Shakespear [00:21:50] In the church, but even outside, even to the point where parents, I think, in general at that period of time were apprehensive to speak openly and candidly to their children about issues of sex, sexuality and sexual development. I remember I was probably eight years old when I approached my parents first about the idea of where babies come from. And they were so embarrassed and so flustered that I vowed at that point that I probably would never ask them a question that again. And that's not saying that. It's probably very similar for almost. I don't know. I'm just guessing, but 80% of youth, maybe even more. Definitely within the church and probably outside.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] No way.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:35] I don't agree. You think it was more.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:22:39] Well, I think that when you're not in the church and you're not insulated in that way, I mean, certainly my parents didn't, you know, have these conversations, but they didn't have to, you know, because I found Hustler magazine, You know, I found, like, friends that talked about things. So by the time I was 11, I knew.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:57] I guess that's me speaking from my experience. Right? Yeah. So coming out from a different. A whole different environment. Yeah. So, yeah, I. So I kind of investigated that on my own, you know, Pre Internet, though. Pre Internet, absolutely. So. So it was the home medical journal. It was about this thick, you know, that my parents had in the house. That's where I started my investigation. And certainly I even had lessons as I grew a little bit older, 12, 14 years old. In priesthood classes, deacons and teachers quorum, they would use the word masturbation. And I was like, what does that even mean? So I discovered the act of that prior to knowing what the meaning of the word was.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Oh, okay. So, I mean, you were doing it before you even knew what you were doing, Basically.

Matthew Shakespear [00:23:54] Yeah. So. But. And when I discovered it, well, that's what they mean. And while that's sinful, wow. I was like, oh, crud. I've just thrown it all away out of curiosity, like, so. And that was something that I didn't own up to or admit to until this interview when I was wanting to go on a mission. And, you know, in a broader sense, that was kind of maybe the culture of my. Of my peer group, but also the ones. The young men that were older than me, it seemed like you kind of did your exploration As a teenager, maybe it was in sexual activity or maybe it was in even use of alcohol as, you know, teenagers, which I didn't ever get into. That was something that didn't interest me, even though it was something that did happen amongst my peer group to a degree. But that you would experiment as a teenager in those kinds of things, and all the while knowing or thinking that eventually when you turned about 18, 19, you would approach the bishop and you would say, I want to go on a mission, and these are the things that I've done wrong. So you kind of created this laundry list in a way, and then you kind of offloaded it as you approached mission age, and you were ready to kind of, like, let those go. That's how it was for me. Now, maybe. Maybe for other peers, they were confessing, talking to the bishop about those issues all the way along, but that wasn't my experience. I kind of held it in and let it eat at me for years.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] So were you. Was it just, like a minor annoyance, or were you, like, perpetually wracked with guilt and shame or something in the middle?

Matthew Shakespear [00:25:59] Probably somewhere in the middle.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:26:01] Maybe, like, kind of dissociate from it at times. There were times when certainly, like, maybe like, youth standard nights or firesides where that subject would come up, why would I be wracked with torment and shame and guilt and, you know, give me a couple weeks, and I kind of be able to maybe get rid of that for a while and kind of offload it and not think about it until the next time around.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] So, just as a side note, you know, I know the brethren sometimes listen to these episodes or church headquarters religion, Orthodox religions have to find out a way to not teach their members to lie, because in effect. And it's not their intent, they don't mean to do this.

Matthew Shakespear [00:26:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] But in effect, you kind of started your interview kind of alluding to this, and that's what we've gotten to, is that there's this system where the expectations are literally almost impossible and almost everybody falls short. And then almost everybody. But. But the. But the guilt and the shame and the expectations are so high that everybody feels like they can't be honest about it. So.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] So the system creates a scenario where people learn to lie, and they learn to lie for multiple years. And you mentioned disassociate, which is basically live. Live dual lives where there's a private life and a public life.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] That's like. That's like the source of a huge percentage of emerging mental illness.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] When You. When you have a private and a public life and you're suppressing things and hiding things, and then learning to live with this constant discomfort of being out of sync in terms of your conscience, your integrity, you know, your honesty, who you profess to be versus, you know, how you think and feel inside.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] And we just. We got it. We got to do better, because that's like every single person I've ever interviewed on Mormon Stories podcast, and we just got to fix that. So I'm just going to.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:27:56] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:57] For certain. Yeah. And so, you know, to that member of the quorum of the 70 that's assigned to. To, like, listen to this. You know, I mean, my heart go out to you, whoever you are, brother, who's probably assigned to listen to these.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] It would be.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:10] I would expect, that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Maybe. Maybe. Hopefully.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:14] Right. Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:28:15] Can we, like, lie to himself about how he feels? It's the disintegration that happens internally. I mean, that's what you do.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:23] And that's. That's where, like, these systems can really be hurtful.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:28:26] Shame cuts us off.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:28] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Where.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:29] Where our connection could be greater because we are honest. And sometimes that. Unfortunately, there's a wall that sometimes shows up. And I grant. I mean, I realize that part of that was my personality to look. To want to be a pleaser.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:28:48] To want to look right on the surface. And so. But I do think certainly some of that, the system itself creates that.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] And there's some people that just, like, they aren't honest and they lie, but they don't really aren't beat up about it, and then they repent and then they move on their life and. Yeah. Like, no harm, no foul.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] And there's others like you that are kind of in the middle where it wasn't healthy, but it also wasn't tearing you apart, and you got through it. And maybe it reared its ugly head later, but, I mean.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:23] And then there's people with, like, scrupulosity that are, like, literally suicidal and want to kill themselves because of it, and they're in the bishop's office every week and.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:31] Right, stop.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] And it leads to, like, psychotic breaks.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:35] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] So we. I don't want to pretend like everybody's affected the same way. Definitely. Yeah. It just depends on the individual personality.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:43] Yeah. But it's a problem, definitely. So. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] And it's almost every person I've ever interviewed, so.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:48] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:50] So, yeah. You know, I mean, that was. That was kind of the environment where I grew up in, but I would Say, you know, definitely an orthodox family and definitely high expectations, but kind. I mean, wow, you know, n people, great people that helped and I mean, showed up to help when it was needed, when push came to shove, you

John Dehlin [00:30:09] know, I mean, it's a solid upbringing, right?

Matthew Shakespear [00:30:11] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] An orthodox Mormon upbringing when everything's working pretty well.

Matthew Shakespear [00:30:14] Definitely. So definitely working pretty well. I mean, you know, father was the breadwinner, mom was stay at home. She, you know, I remember even discussions. It was probably in the late 80s, 80, I don't know when the talk was given, but the encouragement that mothers should be in the home, I remember those. We would go over. I grew up across the street from my grandmother and she was street, just a really awesome grandmother. It was a great situation to grow up in. I mean, I was over there, I'd mow her lawns, I'd maintain her lawn mower and I'd fix little things in her house. And, and so it was, it really was a Mormon upbringing where things really were working well.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:31:08] And, and I certainly, I look back on that with just feeling, you know, appreciation and feeling like it was a charmed upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] Yeah. And that makes it so more fraught when, when there's a faith issue later because some of us had just an amazing, idyllic upbringing.

Matthew Shakespear [00:31:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] That. That makes it more complicated. Let me ask you really quickly. What about your journey to have a testimony? There's always the kind of the Moroni 10:4 promise. And. Yeah, do I really know? Some people just think they always know. Others really want to try. And either they, they get some type of emotional feeling or they get the witness that they think they have. Did you have that type of journey at all or not?

Building a Testimony and Preparing for Mission

Matthew Shakespear [00:31:55] Yeah. So that was part of it all the way along. I mean, certainly feeling encouragement to read the Book of Mormon, to engage in the idea of Moroni's promise. And I, I, When I was a teenager, high school, I really didn't care for reading much. I struggled to read. I mean, I can count on one hand the novels that I read in high school, even though there were more than that that were required. So it really wasn't my thing to read. But I Certainly, you know, 16, 17, I took it more serious. I definitely there was a streak here and there where I really was trying striving hard to read the Book of Mormon on a consistent basis. I tell you, I really, at that time in my life, I got into, I mean, general conference was a time my parents listened, at least listened on the radio. Sunday was. We watched it on the television, KSL broadcast, Channel 5, you know, so we certainly watched the Sunday sessions. Always, always, always did our best to make it to the priesthood. Sessions that were broadcast at the ward building in town. If we were out generally. I mean, General Conference came in the fall. We were sometimes out. It was the deer hunt sometimes, which was a big family tradition, my uncles and cousins down. But definitely we came back for the priesthood session Saturday night. We were always sure. Unless there was something crazy going on, we were there, or in the spring, we were working with cattle and stuff. And we may have been busy, but we all. We did our darndest to make it into priesthood session. But at 16, 17 years old, Boyd K. Packer, of all people, as I look back, of course, kind of interesting, but I really like, you know, he talked about the study of doctrine will change behavior better than the study of behavior will change behavior. I remember when I first heard that talk from him, I don't know, 92 or something. I'm just guessing. But that really struck me and I was like, wow. So that means if I'm concerned about behavior that I've got, if I'm worried about this occasional dabble into masturbation or my desire to look at the hidden Victoria's Secret catalog stashed away my pornography, I guess. But I was like, wow. So what I need to do is I need to study doctrine. I need to understand the doctrine, and that will help me change that behavior. Elder Uchtdorf was another one. I mean, at that point in time, 16 years old, I was interested in flying. I love the idea of being a pilot. That was what I was looking into. I wanted to be. So, of course, Elder Packer, having been a pilot in World War II, other Uchtdorf having. Having worked as a professional pilot with the airlines before.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] Before Uchtdorf was an apostle, it was.

Matthew Shakespear [00:35:15] He. I think he was a member of the 70. But he seemed to talk on a very basic. Seemed. I don't know, maybe it may not have been every conference at that point, but it was at least maybe every other one I remember. Yeah. Wow. Silver fox. Look at him. Wow. It's amazing. So. And of course, he had a propensity to talk about his experiences of flying. Every pilot does. You know. You know how you notice if there's a pilot at a party that you're at? Oh, don't worry, they'll tell you so. Yes, exactly. But, yeah, so that for me, it was kind of. It wasn't necessarily a single experience where I was like, yeah, the Book of Mormon is True for me. And this goes through all my life. It was a matter of practicality. I remember actually on a podcast she did with Margi a long time ago, she talked about this idea of a testimony from the life well lived. That's, I would say, probably the best way to explain how I felt about my testimony, how I gained my testimony. It was that feeling of a life well lived and a purpose behind it that helped me to feel like it was true. So I, you know, I remember several experiences of feeling that kind of connection, kind of an inspired purpose beyond myself. And I felt like that was the spirit inspiring me and letting me know that it was true.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] Okay, so any other. Any other things about kind of your adolescence, premission that your family, you. Your story that. That ends up playing in later that you want to make sure mentioned before we go to your mission and post Mission?

Matthew Shakespear [00:37:10] No, I don't really think so. I was able to do one year of college before I left on my mission. Maybe just one thing worth mentioning was took a biology class. It included, you know, this. It included the fossil record, it included Lucy. It included, you know, prehistoric man. And it was taught by an adjunct professor. I went to UVSC at the time. It's Utah Valley University now. He was, he. He was a byu, not a BYU professor, but he had gone to byu. Right. So he's a graduate from BYU and he taught there as an adjunct professor. And he's speaking of these things about, you know, evolution and, and the fossil record. And I remember being troubled a bit by that. I found in the library Reflections of a Scientist, Henry Eyring. And I remember reading that, and I felt a little bit more comfortable and okay with this concept of the Earth being older than 6,000 years. The fact that it could be okay that there's a fossil record that goes millions of years back and that included humanoids that sapiens, you know, so. And I remember having a discussion when I went home on a weekend with my parents, my dad being a science teacher, Right. He was a science teacher in the high school. And so I asked him about that. My dad fell on the side of the. That evolution was a system that God used in his process. And that, you know, time, how time is reckoned in the scriptures could certainly be different than how it's reckoned on the way we measure it. That was part of the way it worked for him. He shared that with me. I remember it was actually kind of a source of epistemology or epistemology, epistemological divide between my mom and My dad, she was more inclined, and still is to this day, more inclined to be more 6,000 year old Earth. The Garden of Eden, created from the dust of the earth. Man showed up then where my dad is more inclined to be, more to give the respect and acknowledgement to the fossil record, but seeing it as a process that God used to establish mankind on the Earth.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:39:54] Can I share something?

John Dehlin [00:39:56] Sure.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:39:57] I'm remembering now that book. So one of my early questions, sitting in his office as bishop, as I sit in there and I'm like, how am I supposed to reconcile everything I know about science with this stuff? As I'm really trying to believe this stuff. And he gave me that book. It was so not helpful.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] Eyring's book.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:40:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] This isn't Henry B. Irving.

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:22] No, it's not Henry B. It's his father. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Wasn't he a chemist?

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:25] Physicist, I thought.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Physicist. Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:27] Taught at Princeton.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:28] Right. So he was there with. I think even with Einstein for a while. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Interesting.

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] Okay. So that was. Would you say that was a crack or something to put on your shelf?

Matthew Shakespear [00:40:40] I wouldn't even say that because I think I came away with that with. With the being very comfortable with the concept of. Basically the same way that my father thought about the system I was okay with. Like, you know, it was just a system God used. It's not a. Not a big deal. I felt really comfortable with that. And, you know, in the book, Henry B. Eyring kind of is like, you know, I talked to. Not. Not Henry B. Eyring. Henry Eyring. So he spoke of the fact that, of course I believe that mankind can develop and help aid in the development of biological systems and changes. Otherwise, how would God be able to do it? I'm kind of paraphrasing from memory, but basically that as mankind's wisdom and knowledge increases, that's becoming more like God. Right. That is our. That is the plan. That is the path. So of course it's going to. It stands to reason that we will get there too.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:41:46] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:41:47] So I don't even think it was a crack for me. I think it was just. It was a. It was an adventure into seeing something in a different way, but coming away. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:41:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] Fun. So mission, is that next?

Serving a Mission and Its Lasting Impact

Matthew Shakespear [00:42:03] Yeah, I think mission's next. I can't.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] We don't have to. We can go into as much or little as you want or.

Matthew Shakespear [00:42:07] Yeah, no, I think. I think Mission was really good. Great formative experience. I got called to New York, New York South. So that was 90. I left in May of 95, finished my year at UVSC. I got my private pilot certificate before I finished that year and was really just enjoying life and was so excited about becoming a missionary. So Cantonese speaking though, and I was like, whoa, what's Cantonese? But it's a dialect of Chinese spoken primarily in Hong Kong and Southern China. So you've got the Canton province, but it's very popular dialect. And so went to the MTC and learned Cantonese, was there for eight weeks and went out to New York, New York South. So New York South Mission composed of Long Island, Staten Island, Brooklyn, Queens and of all places the island of Bermuda. So but as a Cantonese speaker, we primarily stayed in Brooklyn and Queens and New York north, which composed Manhattan, didn't have any Chinese speaking missionaries, so we actually got to venture out across the Brooklyn Bridge to actually proselyte and find. We were, we were kind of authorized to do some of our finding and teaching in Manhattan as well. So fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] For a boy from what was the name of the tropic, Utah, to be hanging out in Brooklyn. That's intense.

Matthew Shakespear [00:44:02] Yeah, it was, well, what an amazing experience. It really was such an incredible eye opening experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] So anything from your mission experience that will factor in later or was it a typical mission experience you want to mention?

Matthew Shakespear [00:44:20] Pretty typical, but just quickly. So mission president was a, was a businessman from Australia, John Walter Bailey. He developed a, or started a business similar to what you would see H and R Block. So income tax professionals I think is what it was called, but it was an income tax preparation service kind of thing. He developed that company, did very well, was very successful, an amazing leader. Wow. Is he an amazing leader and he could really motivate missionaries. At the time when I arrived in the mission, he was a year, year and a half in to his three year stint there, maybe just a year in. And it's funny because the culture at the time when I arrived amongst the missionaries was that of. I remember first companionship meeting with my new companion. He pulls what we called the White Bible. So it was the missionary guidebook handbook. It was in a little white sleeve that was kind of the white Bible. It was the rule book for missionaries. So he pulls that out of his pocket and he throws it across the room. I go, whoa. He says, we don't follow that. What?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:45:51] What?

Matthew Shakespear [00:45:53] And I yeah, wow. Like having just left the mtc, I was like, whoa, what did I just step into? So he explained it more. But the concept was that that guidebook was the letter of the law. It was the law of Moses. But there's a law, there's a higher law that we obey in the New York South Mission, and it's that we're led by the Spirit all the time. So if we're, for example, in the middle of a discussion with a family and we're feeling the spirit and they're feeling the spirit and feeling good and excited, and it's, let's say 10 o' clock at night, but things are good, the discussion's going well. We don't worry about that curfew time.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] Whoa.

Matthew Shakespear [00:46:47] We keep teaching because the Spirit's there. Right. So in a way, the rules were very gray, but it was motivated out of a, out of a real, like this motivation to really like move the work forward in this exciting way. Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] So

Matthew Shakespear [00:47:12] now that like, kind of different approach to rules, I think was something that, that was unique and it really threw me for a loop for a while. But I embraced it after a while too, and. But it was rife with problems. I mean, you, you let young missionaries kind of roll with that idea. It can get dicey quick.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:47:36] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:47:36] I mean, we're there justifying so many things.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] And did that happen?

Matthew Shakespear [00:47:40] It did happen. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] So scandals in the mission?

Matthew Shakespear [00:47:44] Yeah, but not really. You know, as a Cantonese speaker, there was only four of us. And so we were in many respects kind of separated off from much of that maybe drama that existed outside in this bunch of Spanish speaking missionaries, English speaking missionaries, we just didn't associate with them much.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] So you won't have a lot of. You have a few companions on your mission?

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:05] Yeah, yeah, very few.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:08] Yeah. I did serve with some English speaking companions in Flushing, Queens for a while. So I did speak a little bit, you know, get to speak teaching English as well. But I don't really not familiar with too many scandals, but I know that there were some and certainly was aware of a lot of abuse of the idea of the higher law. Right. But we were a high performing mission. I mean, it was a kind of a competition between the east coast, west coast deal, I think it was the Arcadia Mission in California and New York, New York, South. It kind of went back and forth as far as which mission was the highest baptizing mission in the United States at that time. You know, really a real emphasis on.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] So it's your highest months. Do you know how many baptisms?

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:03] 300.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] That's a lot.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] And were there, do you think, you know, on my mission there were these really inappropriate baptism practices.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] Listen, episode one, if you haven't heard. But like Soccer, baptisms, just bribery and manipulation.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Do you think that that was part of.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:23] That was part of the environment? For sure. I mean, you know, you get people who want to achieve, who want to look good for this amazing leader, right? This incredible dynamic and leader you want to be, you want to impress him, right? So you're going to do what you can. And it happened. It was easier for the Spanish speaking missionaries to really push the envelope. Chinese, the Chinese culture is much more conservative and very careful and more so. It was really kind of maybe more difficult for that to happen on the Chinese side of things. But we tried though. One month we had a goal as a mission to have 300 baptisms. And last day of the month,

John Dehlin [00:50:19] literally

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:19] 11pm the missionaries in the zone are out talking to people, approaching every person they can on the street. Hey, you want to listen to a message about Christ and his restored church, bringing them into the word, building and teaching. Six discussions in a period of 30 minutes. The baptismal font's full downstairs, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Yeah, I had that experience. I had that exact experience.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:49] So let's go look at the baptismal font. You can do this right now, right? So let's don't, I mean, you know, don't let another minute pass without covenanting with God and showing him how you want to be obedient to his gospel.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:51:04] Used car salesman on you.

Matthew Shakespear [00:51:06] And I mean, you know, it was excitement, though. I mean, we were excited and we were like, wow, this goal and we can do this. I mean, I mean, my companion, who was from Hong Kong at the time, we approached two young girls who were walking home from the subway station. They were Asian, they spoke Cantonese, we taught them, and we asked them if they wanted to be baptized this night, the 11th hour, right? Last month, last day of the month. And you know, they're like, well, maybe, but I think I probably should talk to my parents first, right? And we're like, yeah, you should get permission. But there was a pressure, though, from the zone leader, like, come on, just do it, you know, don't worry about it. But I really felt like we needed to ask the parents. And my companion, having grown up in Hong Kong, felt that there was a need to respect the parents too. Here it was, I don't know, 11:30 now, right? And they live three or four blocks away as zone leaders. Like, here, take our car, drive them home, ask their parents, we'll see you in 15 minutes. We'll be ready, right? Of course, the parents say no. They were terrified when we show up on their front door with Their daughters, who they were expecting to be home an hour ago. Anyway, so we come back to the church. It was just me and my companion in the car. What happened? Mom and dad said, no, go figure. But we felt like we let some people down.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] And the font was full, right?

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:06] The font was full.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Waiting.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] That type of experience is what almost wrecked my mission, is trying to process that with the mission president, where he was zealous and wanted for us, it was every companionship getting a baptism in a month. So imagine 100 companionships. He wanted every companionship to have a baptism because we were 700amonth.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:33] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] But so for him, the goal was that every companionship have a baptism. And he sent out the aps last, you know, last few days of the month, told us all to fill our baptismal fonts, and he sent the APS out to my area to find those two companionships that hadn't had a baptism yet. And that's what we did. We pressured vulnerable people to get baptized in the moment. And we did get the baptisms.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] But I felt filthy. I felt dirty. And then when I tried to talk to my mission president about it, he yells at me and punishes me and ostracizes me because I'm questioning the priesthood authority. So I was on the other side of that, where he got the baptisms, and then I felt dirty.

Matthew Shakespear [00:54:15] Yeah. Well, I remember one other month, though. I was. I was the district leader for the Chinese district, all four of us. And it was another month. It wasn't this one, I don't believe, but we had baptized someone close to the end of the month. It was kind of like it was two. Two brothers. They were teenagers. They were just kind of open to whatever. Right. And I remember handing. So the paperwork, the bab. The slip that's filled out that you give to the ward leader so they can, you know, input the information and get them processed. I remember handing those to the ward mission leader or this executive secretary. I can't remember which, but. And they're like, oh, wow. Oh, you baptized someone? And we didn't, because when someone got baptized in that branch, in the Chinese branch, they really liked it to be a very social event. But we had done this at the 11th hour, and the ward wasn't invited. They weren't there. And so they were like, oh, wow. Oh, they got baptized. And I remember my companion was like, how come you gave them that paperwork? They're going to be mad at us now. Well, isn't that part of this? We're supposed to keep track of this. Right. So, you know, all of those hard things, like I look back and go, wow, you know, informed consent, did that mean anything then? I didn't even know what that word was. Yeah, of course, right?

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:55:55] Hard, Hard, like. But, you know, it was a wonderful time.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Felt amazing.

Matthew Shakespear [00:56:02] It melt. It felt amazing.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] You think you're told the stories of the early Mormon missionaries going to Great Britain and baptizing 100 people in a day. And so you've got that lore in your mind. And so you want to just be that modern day miraculous missionary where people are converted in the moment by the thousands.

Matthew Shakespear [00:56:22] We even did street meetings. We'd take an old chair from the apartment, sit it out in the corner, and we'd jump up on it and we'd talk and talk. Wow. You know, so. And really. So to compare this, I had a high school friend, we grew up together, we graduated together, we received our calls the same day. We were in the same MTC language class. He got called to Hong Kong, I got called to New York City. I don't think he actually was part of teaching someone that got baptized in his whole two years.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:57:01] And I believe, if I remember right, I was part of teaching 31 people that got baptized. Now, granted, when someone leaves their home country and they come to a new environment, they're more open to new ideas. I think that played part of it. I saw it at that time. Second Nephi, Chapter two. All those that come into this land are brought here by the hand of God and they know it. And of course, they would accept the gospel, right?

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Yes.

Matthew Shakespear [00:57:33] They know that they were brought here by the hand of God. It's in the scriptures. I mean, I turn to that all the time. I felt like really inspired by that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:57:44] What were all the other people brought by the other places in the world.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] But you're feeling emotional, Matthew.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:57:52] Well, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:57:52] I mean, it was powerful to me then. It was really something that I believed.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:58:00] And you know, really, when you look at some of. When I remember some of these people that we taught, I mean, one of the guys, I don't really know his full story, how he got to the US But I think it was in a container, a steel shipping container.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] I mean,

Matthew Shakespear [00:58:25] and he left because he had nothing in China. So even the dive that he lived in and the fact that he would go to the east river every day and fish for food, but he could go wherever he wanted and feel a freedom. Yeah, I mean, of course I felt like he was brought here by God. So it was Powerful. I mean, I would say my mission was a. I mean, I learned so much. I really did learn to accept diversity

John Dehlin [00:59:19] of people

Matthew Shakespear [00:59:22] that I don't know if I would have. Well, I certainly hadn't encountered it to that point in my life, but I think it was a great part, a great formative experience for me as I went into adulthood. And I think that's about it for my mission.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] And when you. It's weird how your frame of reference matters because back then it's all miraculous. Now you're. We can even be horrified about issues of cultural imperialism or pressure or right or. Or informed consent. And it's just. It's just amazing how perspective really colors things.

Matthew Shakespear [01:00:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] I wanted to ask you just really quickly. My mission president, Gordon Romney was. Everyone felt like he was gunning for general authority. When I got back from my mission, I felt like I had to tell on him to church headquarters because I felt like it was so corrupt what he was doing, even though from his framework he was saving souls and.

Matthew Shakespear [01:00:22] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] You know, but from my standpoint, it was corrupt. Did your mission president ever become a general authority later? Do you know if. If not why?

Matthew Shakespear [01:00:31] Or so I don't know. But what, what I am aware of is that I am aware of. So as he neared the end of his. I think he left to go home about a month after I did. So you know what, May of 97. Well, they usually switch him out and was it June or July? Right. So it was that year of 97 when he was going home. What I did see. And he actually spoke to it in. In zone conferences, mission conferences, that it's time for us to start transitioning away from this higher law kind of idea of being more open to just moving by the spirit instead of the law of Moses, which is included in the white handbook. It's time for us to start moving back into the bounds. And he spoke to it explicitly. Right. That a new mission president's coming. I don't know what their system, their desire would be.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Do they live the lower law or the higher law?

Matthew Shakespear [01:01:32] Right. So he wanted us to kind of reign that idea in. I do think, I don't know this. I can only speculate maybe that there were probably some concerns. I do know after the fact, though, that if I understand correctly, a lot of. A lot of the contemporaries of my mission really struggled when they returned home because they were so accustomed to laws, commandments being gray, that when they came back and they encountered leadership that was a lot more rigid. They. They butted heads and It. And I think there was such a large number that kind of stepped left, stepped away from church activity as they returned home. It did not go unnoticed by church headquarters. In fact, I think they did even some interviewing. From what I understand, they went out and wanted to get to the bottom of what was going on because it was disproportionate in the statistics. I do know, though, he was called to be temple president in Sydney afterwards.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] Okay. Yeah. I don't. I. I think it would be worth doing a Mormon Stories episode or series on the influence of mission presidents on someone's life. Because whether it's, oh, yeah, a father figure or like, transforming and inspiring your life or being super abusive and ruining your life or everything in between, like, the impact that a mission president can have on. On a young Mormon kid's life is just. Can be profound.

Matthew Shakespear [01:03:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] And, you know, we even had it. We even had a. My friend David Christian did a Mormon Stories interview where he served in Australia and his mission president called several sister missionaries to be his plural wives while he was a mission president. And that happened in Australia.

Matthew Shakespear [01:03:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] And like, just. It can be an amazing, uplifting, healing experience depending on your mission president, or it can be like a life destroying, traumatic disaster. And I can tell you Mormon stories would not exist if I hadn't had a mission president like Gordon Romney because it was such a traumatic. A wonderful and traumatic experience for me.

Matthew Shakespear [01:03:58] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] So it's just, it's a fertile topic for exploration, the. The impact of mission presidents on the lives of their missionaries.

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:08] Yeah. And I would say, I mean, for me, I came away from that experience with nothing but a positive feeling toward him, toward the mission president.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] And I still love President Romney, you know?

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:19] You know, and I don't know if you recall, but Mary Danzig Otterstrom, at the time.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Yeah, we.

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:27] We were in a zone together.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] Oh, fun.

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] Yeah. Very fun.

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:31] Yeah.

Marriage, Career, and Life After Mission

John Dehlin [01:04:33] All right, well, what else do you want to tell about your. I want to bring Elizabeth in, but what else do you want to tell about your story between your mission and maybe becoming bishop? That's kind of really important to your transition, your journey.

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:53] Okay. Yeah. So came home. I was kind of a slow mover when it came to the marriage thing. I got involved with a performing group out of the Orem Institute of Religion. So the institute there at uvu, it's called Latter Day Celebration.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Yeah, I've seen him perform.

Matthew Shakespear [01:05:13] And although, you know, I was in high school choir, but certainly I'm not a soloist, I don't have enough confidence for that. But I Can sing in a choir. Okay. But I really think I was selected for the group because I was a farm boy and the director knew I could drive a van with a trailer, but I don't know. Oh, and I was a good narrator when it came to playing the part of, like, Moroni or something. Something in some of the productions. But I did that. That's where I met my former. My former wife. She tried out my second year in the group. She tried out and was part of the group. I was dating someone else at the time, and that relationship didn't work out. And so then we started dating. We went on our first date. I think it was on our spring tour in California. And that was, I think, April of 20. You know, it would have been 99.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:06:22] You almost married, though, the previous.

Matthew Shakespear [01:06:24] Yeah, we were basically engaged. Yeah. She was a BYU student, but we were married in July, so first date in April, married in July. Short dating, short courtship. I think by that time I was kind of like, I need to find the safe. Kind of check all the boxes, Nate, and move on with my life and continue moving on along the path. Right. And she did. Right. I mean, she was musical. She was a returned missionary. She'd served a mission, was faithful, from pioneer stock. Family. I mean, they have. In their family. They have a ring from Jerusha, who was Hyrum Smith's wife.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:07:32] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:32] I mean, that's some of the family heirlooms on that side of the plural wife.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:36] Jerusha was first wife.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:39] Yeah. Hiram's first wife. Okay. So.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:07:43] Because that matters. Right?

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:44] Well, yeah, well, it does matter. Right. I mean, it's your Mormon heritage.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:07:48] I know what wife you are.

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:50] Oh, well, Hiram didn't. If I remember, Hiram did not have. Didn't want to do anything. Have anything to do with the polygamy idea, but he was married once, and then his wife passed away and then he got remarried. Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [01:08:03] I don't think he practiced polygamy in the sense that Joseph did.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [01:08:07] I mean, check me on that, but I think that's the case.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] Okay. My understanding. I could be wrong, but let's. It's not important to the story. Yeah. Listeners will let you know. Listeners will let us know if Iron was a police. I thought he was, but I. I'm probably wrong.

Matthew Shakespear [01:08:23] I could be, too. So. But yeah. And, and, and as we got. We got married. It was. It was like, we are the LDS power couple. Right. I mean, mission president bound. We're going to be achievers in this system. Right. And paradoxically, though, like, when it came to children, like, I know what the church expects. Have children. Don't. Don't wait. Right. Don't wait for children. Don't worry about work, you know, economic. Don't let economics slow that down or stop that. I. When I. When I'm honest with myself, I was really. I mean, really worried about having children right away, but felt the expectation from my wife and from the church. Don't be selfish here. Don't be selfish. This is where you step up to the plate and where you show that you're faithful to the. To the teachings of the leaders of the church. And. Well, we had. Our first child, was born 10 months after we were married. So I don't, you know, certainly don't regret any of my children being part of my life, but that was really a tough one where I went against what I really felt and had and felt unable to speak honestly about my concerns and fear. Yes, I wanted to have children, but right away, I wanted to maybe spend some time as a couple. Right. And was concerned about what children, you know, the responsibility that that entails. So that was hard. I remember actually when I called my mom and told her that we were expecting a baby, and she could tell I was kind of emotional, right. And she's like, are you okay? And I remember wanting so badly to say, I'm really afraid. I'm scared that I'm not ready. I mean, every father probably feels that way, right? But really feeling like, well, this came way faster than I wanted it to, that I'm ready for. And instead, here comes the white lie, right? Here comes where I'm intellectually dishonest, and I say, yeah, I'm fine. I'm just really happy. I mean, of course, there was a level of happiness, but also, I didn't speak the fullness of my feelings because I felt like it was opposing the teachings of the church.

Faith Crisis and the Strain on Marriage

John Dehlin [01:11:55] And. And I just also want to ask, you know, obviously, the marriage didn't end up working out, correct? Some do. Some marriages survive, some don't. Some marriages after a faith crisis survive, and some don't.

Matthew Shakespear [01:12:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] I. I no longer have the policy that all marriages should or I no longer have the perspective that all marriages should survive. Sometimes divorce is a success, not a failure.

Matthew Shakespear [01:12:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:19] So, I mean, but, you know, I now see you guys, you know, holding hands and really nurturing each other. I've known you both long enough to get the sense that you are engaged in a relationship where you kind of perceive each other to be soul mates, and we'll get to that, or just really emotionally intimate with each other. You know, you, you, once, you, Once you see that. Let me back up. So there's this kind of traditional Mormon saying that we all heard that any two faithful Mormons can make it work.

Matthew Shakespear [01:12:53] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] If they're both committed to the gospel.

Matthew Shakespear [01:12:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] And so you get married really quickly because, like you said, if you check the boxes, then they check all the boxes. We can make it work. And so you. You end up getting engaged really short, getting married really quickly, having kids relatively quickly, but whether or not there was fundamental emotional compatibility, sexual compatibility, a really good fit in terms of a relational fit, you just. It's kind of a crapshoot and sometimes. Right. So I often say a faith crisis reveals a marriage more than it does destroy a marriage or ruin a marriage. I guess, you know, the. The question that came to my mind is, like, how well did you. Were you even able to get to know each other? And how much compatibility really was there? You kind of just launch yourself into it.

Matthew Shakespear [01:13:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] And you. You hope that there's compatibility, but you don't need. Compatibility isn't really on the table other than like, am I attracted to them? Do they meet the check boxes? Are they willing to do it? And then you just do it.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:03] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] You don't actually get the chance to assess for emotional, sexual, psychological compatibility. And I'm just wondering if you have any. It's not really a question, but I'm wondering if you. If that's anything that's something you want to even discuss.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:16] Yeah, it certainly is part of it. And I think, like, I mean, what came to my mind as you were speaking was you create the compatibility.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:24] And I'm speaking my own personality. Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:28] Is that like, well, yeah, I'll just be compatible. Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:36] And is that. I mean, when push comes to shove, when things come down later in life, when I came to the point of wanting to be brutally honest with myself and start being honest with my companion. Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:14:59] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:59] That's where more time in courtship would have been important. Right. Where compatibility maybe should have been assessed more deeply, other than we fit into the system and we won't both want to be achievers within this system.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:15:17] I feel like what you're describing is this sort of extrinsically placed on you. Compatibility, like the way you described that was. I mean, I know you well enough to know that you're a master at people pleasing. You are the master at selling yourself so short, but still making it look as though, you know, you're authentically on Board. So I think what you described, when you said you make the compatibility, it sounded to me like he's describing this. It's this external. It's lipstick and rouge. You know, it's what. It's the mirage that you create. We are compatible, but any of the intrinsic. Any of the real raw soul material is just a void. It's like, I could be wrong. That's just the conceptual image that I'm getting of how can you create compatibility?

Matthew Shakespear [01:16:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:16:09] Well, agreed. I mean, that's. That's one of the failings. That's probably, certainly a reason why we're no longer married, when it all comes down to it. Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] What do you mean?

Matthew Shakespear [01:16:23] What I mean is, you know, when. When my faith crumbles and that extrinsic system disintegrates, then, Then where actually, where is the relationship now? Right. I mean, it could be there for some people, and for some people it's not. And that's, that's, that's where. And, and, and where it's. Is that now you've got six kids.

John Dehlin [01:17:09] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:17:16] That's a kind of compatibility, though, that is intrinsic. You know, it's like pieces of a puzzle that fit together. You can't force them into place.

Matthew Shakespear [01:17:25] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:17:26] Though.

Matthew Shakespear [01:17:29] So. Yeah, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] Yeah. So thanks. Thanks for that vulnerability. And, and what I heard you saying. I heard something maybe similar or parallel is just. Just like in your adolescence, you. You learn to have the private and the public life. You learn to say whatever needs to be said to please, to look as though everything's fine. That. That carries into your marriage, where your job is to externally conform or fit or do whatever you can so that the marriage is successful and so that your family is successful.

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] Whether or not you want to get married quickly or have kids quickly or whatever, whether even you're a great fit, you're going to make it work because that's how it. And then. And then you'll deal with the emotional turmoil however you deal with it. Right. But that's, That's. That's something you got to figure out. Because not conforming isn't a possibility.

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:31] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] And if that ends up becoming toxic or unsustainable over time, we'll see.

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:38] We'll see.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] Right?

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:39] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're. Absolutely. You characterize that correctly. I would. I would agree with what you said.

John Dehlin [01:18:45] We'll see if it works out. Or does it blow up and explode in a really unpleasant way for everybody? Because over time, how long can you pack it down and pack it down and pack it down and contort and twist to fit whatever the external expectations are.

Matthew Shakespear [01:19:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] You know, how long can you, how long is that sustainable before you or the system falls apart?

Matthew Shakespear [01:19:06] Something breaks. Something breaks, right? Something's probably going to break. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a great characterization. So, I mean, just let's kind of move things along in a way, I guess to say that. So we, we move around a fair amount. I, I get hired right up basically right out of college to fly for SkyWest Airlines. I move through the ranks of co pilot, then to captain. We move around to several, you know, live in California for a while, come back here to Utah, move out to Colorado, fly out of Denver for a while. Most of the time usually involved in young men somewhere. Right. So in young men's presidencies. Although that was kind of difficult with my schedule because I could either be there on Sunday or I could be there on Wednesday for the Wednesday activities. But it was hard for me to, you know, with an airline schedule to be there for both. So that was kind of tough. Then kind of got, after 11 years of flying for an airline with the schedule of being gone four to five days a week, was looking for something different and felt like my kids were growing up without me around much. And so an opportunity came up to start a business keeping honeybees. And my brother had got me interested in that and, and that, that came up and so we moved up to, we moved to Moses Lake, Washington. Moses Lake is a town that's probably 30% Mormon LDS. It's a very strong community, farming community. A lot of Mormons from Utah moved up there with the. When they built the dam, 50s, 60s and started farming and. But anyway, I continued to fly for a while, operating a beekeeping operation on the side. Continued to fly and you know, all the while having kids every couple of years. And I was called, I was served as an elders quorum president in Moses Lake. Really loved that calling. What was really amazing about that group of men today I got to associate with was they were probably the most real down to earth and honest people I had had the chance to associate with within the church outside of maybe my growing up years. And I would even credit that to one man who's still a good friend of mine who was kind of a. Grew up in a Mormon family but didn't join the church until he was an adult. But he was honest. What he was, he wore on his

John Dehlin [01:22:19] sleeve

Matthew Shakespear [01:22:21] and he, because of his honesty, encouraged that whole group of men to open up in a way that I hadn't seen before. And that was an amazing experience. Really awesome to be part of that. Served there for a few years and then we moved again to Yakima to work transition into ownership of a larger beekeeping operation, which is what I own now and what I operate now. And we had, by that time we'd had all six kids at that point. We had five of them to basically two years apart on down the line. And then, and then the little caboose, she came seven years after number five. So she was born there in Yakima. 2015.

Youth Interviews, Bishops, and Church Culture

John Dehlin [01:23:27] I, as I, as I reflect on the outline that you put together in preparation for this interview, there's at least one dynamic that I want to explore really quickly.

Matthew Shakespear [01:23:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] You talk about as a young men's leader and as a leader in the church, battling kind of with, you know, masturbation and, and stuff as a faithful church leader. Yeah. And this is something that doesn't get discussed because we always talk about the youth being put through heck or hell, you know, tormented by their bishop. But, you know, the same young men's leaders in Mormonism that are preaching to the youth about masturbation are probably and almost always masturbating themselves. And I've interviewed a few bishops, including Sam Young, who almost every bishop I've ever interviewed who served as a Mormon bishop admits that they were simultaneously potentially questioning youth about masturbating and they were masturbating themselves as bishops.

Matthew Shakespear [01:24:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] So you, this was something that you had to think about as a, as someone who was elders quorum president and then young men's president and kind of rising in the ranks of. Yeah, you, you were, this is, you were confronting yourself. Is that right? Do you want to tell the story?

Matthew Shakespear [01:24:48] Yeah, sure. So to back up just a little bit. So, yeah, there was some, certainly something that was part of my life and behavior as a teenager as a missionary. I was white knuckled through the, the whole mission experience, wanting, I mean, actually fear of if I did, I'd get sent home. Fast forward to when I was serving as bishop and the mission president in a Bishop Rick. A bishop leadership meeting saying 70% of the missionaries here in our mission struggle with masturbation. And I was like, what? Well then why are. Well, that was anyway, not to get off track here. But the question for me then was like, well then why are we asking the question of them before they go on the mission?

John Dehlin [01:25:38] Yeah, we'll get back to that.

Matthew Shakespear [01:25:39] But we'll get back to that. Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:25:42] So

Matthew Shakespear [01:25:45] as, so the, the period between marriage, you know, getting married and serving as a young man's you know, leader in different, you know, presidencies. Yeah, it was something that was part of my behavior, typically when I was on the road flying, you know, and it was. It was. I kept it hidden. Certainly wasn't going to admit to that behavior to my wife. Definitely something I was scared to do and also was not ready to admit that to a bishop in temple recommend interviews or whatever I was called to be. They had organized a new word. This was when we were living in Utah, one of the times they had organized a new ward and I was called to serve as young men's president. And just by turn of events and where I was in my life, I was wanting to be more honest and wanting to kind of clear up this, I guess, this weight, the rocks that I'd put in my backpack to speak to a common Mormon meme, right. I was like, I can't. I can't be a young man's president and have this hanging over me. So I went to the. Just barely called bishop, right? I mean, he was trying to organize all the auxiliaries and everything in a period of two weeks or something, you know, and after having accepted the call, call them back and said, we need to talk. And I told him what was going on and. And he rescinded the call to be young men's president. Feeling like it would be better for me to work through this repentance process and not have that. That calling. And I was okay with that at the time. I felt quite embarrassed. Of course, it hadn't been announced publicly or anything at that point in time. Went home from that interview and told my wife that I'm not going to be called to young Men's president today, which was the plan. And of course, that was really difficult for her. And for me, that was a difficult, I guess, maybe out of the blue, surprise. That was hard. And we slowly kind of worked through that. And, you know, from then forward, although there was maybe some occasions where I, you know, engaged in that kind of behavior, I felt like I felt a lot more pressure to not to not, like, you know, do that anymore because, you know, how many more times do I want to go through that shameful kind of process, feeling like I needed to just be better and, you know, but, yeah, it's a part of human behavior that is more ubiquitous, I guess, more common than even leaders in the church, I think, in many respects, want to be truthful about, especially when it comes to their own behavior, you know, certainly As a, like to say, as an elders. When I was elders Quorum president, there was a lot of pressure not to, not to do that. Of course, not wanting to be hypocritical, not wanting to be a hypocrite. Definitely during the time as bishop, that pressure existed. In fact, well, and other factors played into it as well. But I was so tired and so exhausted. When I was a bishop. I was running a business, family, kids, 20 to 30 hours a week in the duties of a bishop. I mean, I would say in many respects I was so tired, but I didn't have interest in that during the period of time I was a bishop. But that's not to say that I didn't have the evil thought or maybe even engage in some level of self stimulation. But that's a. Wow. It's a hard, hard thing for people to be honest with and about. And I think we can do better. I think the church can do better. I think we can be more human and still be considered by the rules, worthy.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] Well, you kind of, you kind of mentioned the idea of just not asking the question anymore. Because if it's, I mean, it's not as ubiquitous as sleep and water and food.

Matthew Shakespear [01:31:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] But I mean, if you go like one level up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's certainly right above that. So, I mean, if it's as ubiquitous as 90% for men is, is the percent that I have, if it's that ubiquitous, why are we ever asking the question at all? I think that's what you made me wonder.

Matthew Shakespear [01:31:53] Yeah. And so, and so, I mean, kind of jumping forward. But it's, but it's pertinent to the, to the discussion right now is that as I was bishop and when I was called in 2015, like, one of the things that, you know, as I looked in, you know, doing interviews with youth, knowing my own experience, even though it was maybe off script, so to speak, I'm jumping into the higher law. Right. I learned how to do that on my mission, being led by the spirit, whatever you want to call it, I didn't feel. My feeling was unless a young person brings it up to me, I'm not going to push into it. And even though maybe as I'm doing the temple recommend interview to go do baptisms for the youth at the temple, and I'm pretty certain based off of body language, I mean, our brains are so amazing at catching small little things and knowing when deception might be at play. Even if I thought that they're not being truthful. About do you obey the law of chastity? I wasn't gonna press in if they said yes, I do. Even if I felt like every bit of body language was saying no, I don't, I wasn't gonna to go further. I felt like it wasn't my place. And so that's where I landed as far as pushing into those issues as bishop.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:33:42] What about with adults? Did you ask adults? I know you didn't ask me. That's another weird thing that would have been a deal breaker for me.

Matthew Shakespear [01:33:51] Yeah. With adults it was the same thing unless they wanted to push in to the subject. And again, even in that temple recommend interview where I asked the question, do you obey the law of chastity? Even if body language might have suggested otherwise, I didn't ask more if they said yes, I do. Let's go on to the next question.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] And one thing this highlights for me is another problem that I'm just going to highlight which is the variability of what, what, what we often call bishop roulette, Mormon bishop roulette or ecclesiastical roulette because you'll get, you'll get bishops on one super liberal or progressive end of the spectrum that just never want to talk about it ever. And it's just a non issue. And you can go to the temple or pass the sacrament or go on a mission if you masturbate and they don't even want to know.

Matthew Shakespear [01:34:41] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] And then you're, you're slightly to the right of that, which is like, well, we'll talk about it if you bring it up. But I'm certainly not going to bring it up.

Matthew Shakespear [01:34:50] Up. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:50] Then you'll swing all the way to the other side. When I was in Logan, you know, during the years I was excommunicated, we had a bishop who would ask every single youth, do you masturbate? And this bishop asked my oldest child, you know, who was assigned, you know, the gender of female at birth, you know, do you masturbate? So this is my 17, 18 year old daughter. It's, she's graduating from seminary. Yeah. And she's got this 35 year old man alone with her in a room asking her proactively if she masturbates because he's got to ask every youth because he's found that there are youth who do that. And so you've got to ask everybody and then everybody's put on a worthiness plan or repentance plan and you're treating it like. And you're not allowed to go on a mission or your Mission's delayed or your, you're not allowed to get married or your wedding is delayed or you can't pass the sacrament and becomes this very visible thing and you're shamed in front of your siblings and your parents and your friends and the ward members. Why isn't Johnny passing the sacrament? Why isn't Johnny blessing the sacrament? Oh, there must be some. Why was his mission delayed? Why were there. Why was their wedding delayed? Why couldn't he go to byu? Like there's this variability of what a bishop chooses to enforce that can literally drive some kids to suicidal ideation or even suicide attempt, deaths by suicide attempts or even death by suicide if, if you get the wrong bishop. So that's why, that's why this, this is, that's why I bring this up almost every interview. Because it's such a plague and such a potentially deadly game that gets played just randomly by which bishop you happen to get. If you get the wrong bishop, your life can be ruined. Literally.

Matthew Shakespear [01:36:46] Right. So I, there is kind of, I guess an interesting kind of set of. Maybe you could call it a double standard, if you will. Because it seems as though the emphasis on those six month interviews with youth, I mean, granted I've, well, in June it'll be two years since I've been released as bishop, but I still feel, I think it's the same and I could be wrong, but there wasn't as much an emphasis on those six month interviews with youth to look into that I didn't feel. But the high standard that is investigated for missionary candidates is delving into those details deeper. And that's where maybe it becomes even can become even more hurtful in that all of a sudden now, in fact the script for those questions for missionary candidates, for potential missionaries, I mean, it's scripted what we are to ask and it is explicit. It's, you know, what kind of experiences have you had with other people in the sexual realm? How often? What are the details? So yes, that was born out of the idea of raising the bar. Right. We remember that, that slogan of raising the bar for missionary service. It was, it was the intent, I think was no longer is it okay for you to rack up a bunch of sins, quote, unquote sins as a teenager and come to your bishop and spill it all out on his desk pre mission and then be able to go out and serve.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] You guys kind of did like we kind of did.

Matthew Shakespear [01:38:44] Whoa, Go figure. Right? Like was kind of the custom.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] Yeah,

Matthew Shakespear [01:38:50] so, but, but it was certainly those questions came from that of like we're gonna delve into it deep here as you prepare to be a missionary

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:39:01] and, you know, unfair, because you don't ask them when they're youth or younger and you don't ask. You don't ask. And then all of a sudden you.

Matthew Shakespear [01:39:09] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:39:10] Drop it on them.

Matthew Shakespear [01:39:11] At least I didn't ask, but I certainly did.

John Dehlin [01:39:15] I was.

Matthew Shakespear [01:39:16] I was proactively educating them that these are the questions you can expect when it is mission time. Right.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:39:26] But, yeah, it's kind of like, you know, certainly I know some youth who their missionary service was delayed. And again, it was partly in the matter of leadership roulette. And I was always, again, when the mission president, the acting mission president in Yakima was like, 70% of our missionaries masturbate consistently. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So later I asked the mission president. No, sorry, the stake president, why are we asking the question when it is the fact that they are engaging in this as missionaries and it's okay. And I think it should be okay. I'm not, certainly not pushing back against the idea that they should continue to serve, but I am pushing back against this kind of standard that then is not a standard, but then it's gray. But then he say. He said. I'm trying to remember what he said. Well, it's a matter of making sure they have enough willpower to manage themselves. And I was like, well, so what bar do they have to meet of not engaging in porn or masturbation before we can move forward? Well, you know, let's say they put a month together, and then they maybe do it once, and then maybe they're able to do another. Another month. So really, you're looking at almost two months without nothing. So that's probably. That's getting there. And there is no written standard.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] Right, exactly.

Matthew Shakespear [01:41:08] And that's, you know, that's part of the problem. That's part of the problem.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:41:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] But I think. I think the bigger point is talking about this at all is the problem.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:41:18] Yeah. There shouldn't be a written standard about what.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] It should just be like, let it go.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:41:23] We know this is normal human behavior, that you do it in the womb. You do it as, you know, as a child.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] Yeah. And the more you talk about it and the more you stigmatize it, the more you encourage the behavior.

Matthew Shakespear [01:41:38] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:39] That's the biggest thing is that we. We probably. We're probably in the 98th percentile of humans masturbating and looking at pornography as Mormons, just because we start talking about it. So young and we prohibit it. And of course, we know psychologically, as soon as you tell a kid or a youth not to do something, they want to do it more. So that's why, duh, Utah, in some surveys, leads the nation in pornography use because we, we groom it as humans from childhood.

Matthew Shakespear [01:42:10] We put it in a container that we can't let go of.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:42:13] And also, one more thing about that is just the scary sort of alternative that can happen instead of you can develop some pretty unhealthy alternative behaviors, trying to not do this thing, you do, this other thing that is damaging and unhealthy. I think a lot of good kids

John Dehlin [01:42:32] end up doing that, like assault or

Matthew Shakespear [01:42:35] because you don't have a natural release

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:42:37] or even like this sort of neurotic. I'm going to bring myself to almost climaxing, you know, over and over again. And I mean, I don't know what that does to somebody, but it's an unhealthy coping mechanism. But, yeah, then on the more egregious end of the scale is, you know, salt. You know, you're finding you're expressing your curiosity in ways inappropriately with other beings because, you know, heaven forbid. I don't know. I don't know. All I know is that it's dysfunctional and unhealthy and it's not right. And it seems obvious, but yet it perpetuates in this insane way.

Being Called and Serving as a Bishop

John Dehlin [01:43:13] So anything else you want to share, Matthew, about kind of your life prior to becoming called as bishop, your marriage, your life, your. Your anything. Then we'll switch over to Elizabeth's story, and then we'll come back to kind of your journey as a bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [01:43:31] No, I don't think so. I think we've probably hit some. The high points. Maybe if I remember something else, maybe we'll jump back. But I think that's, you know, I mean, I guess it's really important to say that, you know, when I was. I served on the Stake High Council prior to being called as bishop. One interesting, just quick tidbit was I remember as High Council meeting where we discussed the excommunication of Kate Kelly. And that was interesting, but didn't really throw me for a loop at the point I was kind of toeing the line pretty well then, so. But it was. It was maybe just a slight little opening into what could be called a feminist, a feminist awakening. And we'll get more. And that happened even more in my service as a bishop. So we can get into that later. And the other fact, too.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] Go ahead.

Matthew Shakespear [01:44:34] The other Fact I think to mention is that, you know, when I was called as bishop, I was working into the ownership of this bee operation. It's a big. We, you know, employ 23 people. It's the largest bee operation in the Northwest. And it's a lot of work. And this just highlights my dedication to what I felt my responsibilities were with the church. There were often times where I would go from a high council meeting that went late into the night, maybe nine, 30 or 10, I go out to my bee truck that has a sleeper on it, change out of my suit and tie. And go and move bees all night long. Come home at 3 or 4 in the morning. And then I felt the responsibility to wake up at seven and be either at work or be with my kids.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] And

Matthew Shakespear [01:45:47] that was not healthy, but I felt it was. It was the call, right? It was the. It was. I'm showing that I'm dedicated. I'm being dedicated to the work of God. You know, I would run from meeting to meeting, changing clothes, from my work clothes to my suit. Often, maybe as we get into my service as bishop and the calling of a new stake president, there would be another example of how that dedication played into it. But I think some. And even when I was called as bishop, talking with the stake president, a wonderful man that I just love,

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:46:37] I

Matthew Shakespear [01:46:37] said, you know, my only apprehension is I have a lot on my plate right now. I mean, we were basically six months from taking over, full ownership of the operation. I was very busy, feeling very overwhelmed and then being called to be the bishop. I said, my apprehension is, I don't know if this is the right time for me because I am so busy. And his response was. And I accepted it wholeheartedly. Put your shoulder to the wheel, right? I mean, his response was, it's God's time. He wants you there. And my response was, okay, I'll be there. So that's my approach to my service as a bishop, was to be there wholeheartedly. I mean, of course, we always hear and it is. And maybe I did it wrong. I could admit that I probably applied this incorrectly, but there is the. The encouragement. You know, continue to date your wife, your family is the most important thing. You need to prioritize them. Even though you're the bishop, they are the priority. I think that's true. But however, in practice, how do you do that? I mean, how do you really. How do you really do that?

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:48:25] It's not humanly possible. I mean, I was coming to church for a very short time and having made my Own changes out of my stressful job and trying to embrace health and well being and for mental health. And I remember asking you just because I could observe. And out of curiosity, but compassion as well. Like, how do you guys do this all? And I ended up coming to a bishop's meeting, whatever you guys called them. But my intention was to bring to them some wellness tips. Like I really. How do I do this without saying what I think you all are doing is insane? It's unhealthy. It's unhealthy for you, it's unhealthy for your family. But really, you have got to figure out that your mental health, your well being is important. All these men, they're not educated about how to be a counselor. They're being therapists. The things that they're experiencing, they're experiencing secondhand trauma. I mean, that was evident to me. Wow. And then here, he's still clearly carrying so much guilt and the weight of maybe I did it wrong. And all of these things are so heavy. And I hate to use the word unfair because there's really nothing about life that's fair. But I just. It kills me. Well, hurts to see and it makes me angry that it's just going on uncontained, encouraged, you know, it just continues on.

Matthew Shakespear [01:49:59] Yeah. But at the time it was. It was because you'll be blessed. You're calling, right? This is. Put your shoulder to the wheel. Press along. Right. I mean, we all have work. Let no one shirk. Put your shoulder to the wheel. And I felt like it was my purpose. I certainly found purpose in it. I'm not saying it was not. It was done with an open heart and not begrudgingly at all. It's only in the reflection of that time period that I see where it really damaged me.

John Dehlin [01:50:49] How so?

Matthew Shakespear [01:50:54] Well, I mean, Elizabeth mentioned this kind of idea of, you know, secondhand kind of trauma with some of the issues that were. I had, I was needed to help with. With members of the ward. It's a matter of psychological health. Not taking time for myself and my own well being, not taking time to enjoy the period of life with my family. And the way that in retrospect, I wish I would have done.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] Done.

Matthew Shakespear [01:51:42] Yeah. I just that I. I struggled to maintain healthy boundaries during that period of time because I felt like

John Dehlin [01:51:56] it was

Matthew Shakespear [01:51:56] the work and will of God that I do what I was doing for the benefit of my brothers and sisters who needed me to be there with my own particular talents and abilities to serve them. So, yeah, it was. It was Both.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:52:26] I mean, I recognize the. The harmful things much easier in retrospect. I didn't really recognize that in the moment, only feeling like something or many things even were not quite right. But it's like you're in it. You're an act on the stage trying to juggle, and you're going to keep trying, even though you're quite certain that one of these balls will fall,

John Dehlin [01:53:00] But

Matthew Shakespear [01:53:00] you just keep trying. Right. God will help you find a way. So I found, you know, in. In the moment, I found joy and. And that moving from thing to thing to thing, I found energy and feeling that and feeling needed. And in feeling like I did a good job, right. That I was helping people. And I can still find joy in that because I really do feel like I helped a lot of people,

John Dehlin [01:53:43] So. But at what cost?

Matthew Shakespear [01:53:45] At what cost? Right. Well, depends on who you talk to, I guess. Right?

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Yeah. So talking about marriage is always difficult because there were times in my marriage with Margi where I'm like, it's not healthy that we're married, or where I. I was just so unhappy and she was unhappy and we were struggling where you could. If at certain points in the marriage, I would have said we shouldn't have ever been married, it's not good for the kids that we are married. And now we both look back and say, we're so glad we're together. And.

Matthew Shakespear [01:54:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] So, I mean, looking back on a marriage is always difficult, but, yeah, as you think about. What we haven't talked about is how your marriage progressed up until the point you became bishop. Other than. I get a sense that. That this was a lot of strain to add to your life in addition to whatever strains you were experiencing. But do you want to give an update on how you're. Just a brief update on how your marriage progressed up until the point where you were called as bishop. Was it living parallel lives? Was it a deep romantic, you know, soulmate friendship? Was it a contractual thing? You know, how is it? Or do you even want to try and capture.

Matthew Shakespear [01:55:00] Yeah, well, I mean, I think there were times when I think you could probably say that all of those things that you just mentioned were present. Right. But I think probably the overarching theme was a relationship of. Primarily driven by utility within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Meaning, like, I mean, we. We did our best to do what was expected within the church. That was part of the unspoken marital contract, if you want to say. And achievement within that community and in that framework was definitely tops on the List. And it was a motivator behind probably everything else. Right. I mean, the idea of eternal families. Well, let's try and make our family the happiest and the best it can be here, because we're going to be with each other for eternity. We didn't. I mean, we didn't really have huge conflicts. In fact, I think probably for our children, except for maybe the exception of the oldest, might have noticed some. Some cracks starting to form going down the road. But we, when I told them we were going to be divorced, to divorce, complete shock to them because there was nothing on the surface that appeared to be amiss. And that was partly because I felt the need to portray the image to maybe let things go that I felt were important, just to let them go at the sake of maintaining the relationship in the way that it felt like it needed to be right, that needed to be happy, that we needed to be a happy, full family that was trying to do what was right according to the standards of the church. So we were good business partners. Right. I mean, especially as we started the business and then we moved into ownership of the new business.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] Oh, literally business partners.

Matthew Shakespear [01:57:20] Yeah. I mean, you know, she ran the office and I was out kind of running the operations of the crew and all that kind of thing. But literally business.

John Dehlin [01:57:34] Six kids.

Matthew Shakespear [01:57:34] Yeah, literally business partners. But also conceptually, in many respects, that's kind of what it became, especially as church callings added on to, became a very, very like. In some respects, it was separate lives. And she was primarily focused on caring for the kids and making sure that their lives were cared for. And I was focused on the business and my callings. And so. But I would say that the romantic side, the courtship side, definitely as the service as bishop declined significantly and it became more of a relationship of what was expected, what was convenient, and a business type relationship, the emotional intimacy declined significantly when you were called. Well, it had started, yeah, for sure. And then of course, as my service continued.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:58:49] And it's hard. I mean, you know, I think that to be gracious, I think she tried her very best to do what she felt was expected in her position as a mother, as a supporter of the priesthood holder. Right. I think she was trying her best that she knew how, and I certainly was not of any help in maybe helping her to see how she could do it differently. That might be more supportive. That's on me. That's my responsibility for not speaking up, maybe. So we certainly could have benefited from some counseling that we didn't really get. But, yeah, so that's probably up to the point of being called as Bishop and maybe into the service as Bishop a little bit. Relationship dynamics that I would like to share.

John Dehlin [01:59:45] All right, well, we've done. We've done two hours. I feel like we should have a break. But, you guys, this has been brilliant and beautiful so far. Thanks for being so vulnerable, Matthew. Thanks for your input, Elizabeth. And we'll. We'll end this portion of the interview, we'll take a quick break, and then we'll come right back. And maybe Elizabeth will hear your story.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] Up until you meet Bishop Shakespear.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:11] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] And then we'll talk about Bishop Shakespear's faith crisis as Bishop meeting Elizabeth.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:19] Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] Your. How your relationship develops while you're Bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] And then how that leads to you stepping down as Bishop and the marriage not surviving and the beautiful relationship you guys have developed since then and your faith journeys.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:37] So that's all. That's all to come. That's not. All right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:00:40] Sounds epic. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] All right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:00:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] All right, everyone, so don't go away. Come right back, and you'll hear more cool stuff in the story. Thanks for joining, and again, thanks, guys, for everything so far.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:00:55] It's our pleasure.

Elizabeth's Mormon Story and Background

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1413

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of this special Mormon Stories podcast episode. We just spent two hours with Matthew Shakespear. Kind of the high level topic is how does a Mormon bishop lose his faith? And when it results in a request to step down as bishop, and it also ends up resulting in a divorce and then a marriage with a member of that bishop's ward while he was serving bishop, and the faith crisis stuff all involved, it's just a fascinating, gripping story. We just spent a couple hours with Matthew Shakespear, Bishop Shakespear, talking about his upbringing, his mission, his service in the church, him getting married, having six kids, and all that went into his epic journey up until the point where he was called to serve as a. As a bishop in Moses Lake.

Matthew Shakespear [00:00:54] I served as a bishop in Natchez, Washington, just outside of Yakima. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Near Yakima. Yeah, we've heard those two hours. Now we are going to pause and sort of like, hear Elizabeth Shakespear's story of everything that led up to her joining this ward in Washington and getting to know and meeting Bishop Shakespear and that journey. And then when that story's done, we'll bring it back and we'll talk about Bishop Shakespear's faith crisis, him meeting Elizabeth, and how that led to all the things that came after. And for me, it's a inspiring kind of love story, at least as it stands today. And that's all we can do, is live in the present moment. Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:01:42] All great love stories have to have tragedy included.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Tragedy, all of it.

Matthew Shakespear [00:01:46] It's got to be there. Learned that from William Shakespear.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] But for me, this is a inspiring story just because it's. There's a lot of honesty and vulnerability and rawness and candor, which is something that we just need more of. So, without any further ado, Elizabeth and Matthew, welcome back to part two of your own story.

Matthew Shakespear [00:02:09] Thank you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:02:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] So, Elizabeth, we've heard a couple hours from Matthew. Why don't you tell us a bit about your Mormon story?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:02:16] Okay. Well, I have to say first that this is. Has always been a difficult thing for me to do, to talk about myself. Honestly, I would dissociate most of my life, and I became aware of that. I remember mentioning it to you as I was getting to know him as a bishop, as I was delving into my religious roots, which are Mormon, and just realizing that due to trauma and just life's circuitous adventures, I am a person, or had been previously, a person who would literally dissociate when I would start talking about myself and about my life. And it's helped me ground in sort of some of the Buddhist roots that I also have because I realized that we are constructing our stories every moment. So I am, in a sense, making up my own past. I'm going to tell you the facts as best that I can. I'm going to share my story as authentically as I possibly can. So with that said,

Matthew Shakespear [00:03:20] I think it's like we. We've talked before that, like the concept of the fact that our memories are corruptible. I mean, when we access the file, if you want to call it that, in our brain, when we do that, we've. We've just corrupted it. Right. So we've corrupted it with our current. Our current situation and moments.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:03:38] Yeah, literally we do that with our memories every time we take them out. So. So this context that I'm sharing certain things in the next time I go to share this memory, it's going to be, in a sense, corrupted by this context in which I shared that old memory. And I think it's helpful to know these facts about the brain and about consciousness Anyway, so there are some basic fundamentals that sort of get reiterated maybe as much as people do as they bear their testimony. They say the same thing over and over again. And I can say I'm the eighth born of nine children. I was born to parents who were members of the church. By the time I came around, they were members of the church. I think that they were. Well, they were converts. They were baptized in the 60s, I believe they had already had two of the nine. And they divorced when I was. So by the time I came around, the stresses of their lives and the marriage were kind of tearing the fabric of that apart a little bit. And they divorced when I was in the third grade. And so my experiences as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ is pretty spotty, pretty, you know, up and down. Certainly nothing like Matthew's upbringing. So, yeah, I mean, it was significant in my teen years for me. I think I was probably that girl who. I can say this from experience as getting involved in young women, as a leader in Nachees. So now I have that perspective as well. So I was the girl who the young women leadership could see was sort of. I was a member, but I was inactive. You know, they wanted to pull this. They wanted to pull the girl into the folds and kind of help them along and reactivate them and get them safe. And I'm glad that that happened. It was helpful, you know, I do think that it was helpful.

Elizabeth's Family and Early Church Experience

John Dehlin [00:05:37] Was life volatile before getting active in the church?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:05:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Anything you want to say about that or.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:05:45] No.

Matthew Shakespear [00:05:46] Okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:05:48] Yeah. So it just. It was. It was.

Matthew Shakespear [00:05:51] It wasn't.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:05:51] Wasn't a bad or terrible childhood or upbringing, but it was just marked by a lot of chaos, a lot of insecurity and inconsistency. So I knew that I was Mormon. You know, there was no doubt about that. I had definitely been exposed to that. I was baptized at 8, but we were those members. I say this now again with this sort of retrospective, like, insight that I gained after I became active in that cheese. But, you know, it seems that in every ward there are the upper echelons and the lower, you know, the people that are endowed and the people that aren't, the families that are kind of barely keeping it together and the families that are the model, you know, family. So, anyway, I.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] If I can just say one thing, like, if it's okay. Like, I. I think about this a lot. When people lose their faith in the church or struggle or even leave the church and they feel like they've been harmed or misled, it's so common to look back and just. Are all the bad things about the church and all the problems. But what I think it's easy to miss or forget or something that's important to consider is that there's a lot of people who, when they join the church or get super active. It. It provides a structure that improves people's lives. And that's like, there's two ends of that stick you. If. If you are angry at the bad things, you have to also acknowledge that. That you have to be grateful about the good things, because it's both. And it's so hard. Sometimes we have this binary mindset where it's all black or it's all white, it's all good or it's all bad and it's all a fraud if you lose your faith. And that means it's all bad and there's nothing good about the church. But what I just want to have you comment on a little bit more, if you want, or what you've already said is, in your case, you experienced a lack of structure in your family that felt chaotic. And then your involvement in the church, as you got into it was. Was an improvement in your life and maybe in your family's life. Is that what I'm hearing?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:07:59] Yeah, I think so, to some extent. I mean, I can only speak for myself. Of the nine of us, only one, the oldest, is still sort of active. I don't. I can't say that it created like, again, so I'm on the tail end of the family. When I look at pictures and I hear stories of what the older siblings share, there was more cohesion. I don't think they were ever the family that shared scriptures and did family home evening and things like that, but that just wasn't possible. I mean my parents background, I think it's worth mentioning they both came from really difficult backgrounds. So my father, I think he was the 12th of 13 kids, but when I say dirt poor, I literally mean they had dirt floors. And he went to the fourth grade and started working in coal mines as a child. And my mom's background is she went to school up to the eighth grade and she had been, she was an orphan. She was literally given away at a cannery when she was seven years old. Her father was in prison for bootlegging moonshine and her mom was illiterate and couldn't read or write. She thinks her mom might have actually been retarded, but that's a debate. We don't know. Anyway, she was given away at a cannery, so her mom took her there, left her there. Whoever wants this kid? So both of my parents came from really difficult backgrounds and a lack of education, but a lot of love and passion for having family. And I think it was for a lot of complicated, complex reasons. I think that the LDS faith brought a lot of good things into their lives. But by the time I had, by the time I came around, it was falling apart. So my mom was pregnant with the ninth child. They'd been married for 24 years and she wanted a divorce. And my dad was very much like, this is your evil, this is Satan, and you know, we are all going to suffer for it. So he sort of predicted that life was going to be hell, you know, for me for sure and for my, for my little brother. And in some ways it was. But I did go live with my dad during my high school years for a little more stability. Mom tended to move a lot and so that was in that little town of Natchez. And I stayed in that high school for four years. And the young women's president was a really kind woman who kind of took me under her wing and, and that was good, but still my exposure was very limited. Like I was never really. Dad would go to church on Sundays, but we went to sacrament meeting and my dad was always kind of a rogue Mormon. I mean I grew up believing that the mountains were church, but on Sunday, you know, that's God's real temple. That, that was the real And I never heard about, like, it was only when I was learning about the church, you know, recently, that I heard that masturbation was a sin. And I called my sister and I'm like, did you ever learn that you had more activity in the church? She was like, no, I never heard that either. So, you know, we were certainly far from your normal. My dad would give us blessings, used the anointing oil, but he smoked cigarettes and drank coffee, and that prevented him from holding the priesthood. So he was always a little rogue, you know. So I grew up with a flavor of Mormonism that was. I don't really know what to call it.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Very, very unique. For sure.

Matthew Shakespear [00:11:45] It's a.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] It's part of the Mormon experience. And we actually haven't covered that a lot on Mormon stories, so I love sharing it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:11:51] Yeah. But, I mean, all of my siblings, myself included, we were Mormon. Like, if you have to fill out the paperwork and, you know, what's your. Your religion? That's what we would write. So there was that brief activity, and then, yeah, so I got married quite young because of this influence, because I did believe that it was a sin to have. Boy, that one was pounded. That was one thing they did pound into my head, you know, with a hard hammer, and that's that premarital sex is a sin, Like a horrible sin. So that was a standout for me, while other things weren't. And I had had premarital sex. I. I had him go through the discussions. You know, I had gone to the bishop, he became a member, he got baptized. It was all a farce, of course. It was just an act. He didn't really ever embrace it.

Matthew Shakespear [00:12:47] And then how was the bishop?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:12:49] Oh, he was great. Really great.

Matthew Shakespear [00:12:51] Surprising, actually, when I think back to the time, to the era, I'm surprised, actually, how, as Elizabeth has shared that experience with me, how. How understanding.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:13:02] And he was very kind and encouraging and just like, okay, that's okay. Stand up, dust your pants off, we'll move on. And, you know, if you can get this boy involved, great. We broke up, and I went on for years and was not sexually active again. Had lots of, you know, boyfriends. And this is something I've come to realize, and it is worth marking because I think it's. To be honest and true, it's not just the church's teachings that kept me chaste, so. So to speak. For a while there, I wanted to believe that. That, you know, that was one of the things I was most grateful for, was because I had gotten involved in a Lot of things. I had done modeling and, you know, been around, like, all sorts of debauchery, you know, and I managed to really stay away from that. And I used to attribute that to my Mormon, the influences of Mormonism. And then I realized it was really more trauma. It was more about the traumas that I had experienced. And, you know, at a younger age that made me, like, not want to be that, you know, that was my protective protection, so to speak.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Bad experiences, bad sexual experiences.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:14:11] Yeah. And I could use Mormonism as a reason, you know, and that was easy for me to say, I'm Mormon, even though I wasn't. And I wasn't going to church. And I, you know, that was always my, like, my one liner, oh, I'm Mormon. So I lost my training. Where was I there? So I was active and then I was inactive. Okay. So I got married. Yes, there was the pressure to get married. So my dad died when I was 18, and that was very difficult. And that young man that I had had those experiences with in the church, and he had became. He had gotten baptized. He was there around at the funeral. He had stayed in contact with my dad. And in a way, oh, boy, he had my dad's number. Dad was a really good man, but he definitely had this whole narrative that Eve was the ultimate sinner. And, you know, therefore, ergo, just by the fact that I was a girl, he was sorry for me because I am a sinner and, you know, I am the cause of the downfall of all of mankind, basically. And this young man resonated with my dad that way. I think he kind of eagerly liked to bond with my dad about those things. And so after he passed away and he came back into my life, there was sexual activity. And then I immediately was like, I have to marry him. Like, I can't. There's no going. I'm not even active in church. I can't go and admit this to the bishop and make it go away. Like, I have to marry him. And then it seemed as if it was fate, as if this was something my dad would have wanted. I don't know. That's just one of those things that in retrospect, you look back and go, wow, that was kind of crazy thinking. But at the time, it seemed like, I guess this is what God wants me to do. So I got married and it was an abusive relationship. It was very unhealthy.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] How old were you?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:16:14] I think I was 19 then when we got married, and that quickly ended. And then I moved away and followed other Passions and interests that were far from anything to do with the church. Climbing was my main passion, in the outdoors, the mountains and Buddhism. So Eastern philosophies. And I ended up going to a small private. It was a liberal arts school, but it's a. It's a Buddhist university called Naropa in Boulder. And traveling those. That was my other passion was just kind of exploring life. And then I got my teaching degree, elementary teaching degree, and got married. This was in my 30s now, and had my child. And that marriage also didn't last very long. It was another tragic story. And interestingly, he was also Mormon. He had an LDS background. It was interesting because I was living in Seattle and it just surprised me to find out that he was Mormon. I mean, he was. Yeah. So that's another one of those things that I think it's planted in you as an lds when you have those early influences to start to think this is Heavenly Father's hand, like he's orchestrating this. This is. There's some. I don't know, that sort of felt like because he had an LDS background, honestly, in Seattle, you just didn't run into that many people. At least I didn't. I was, you know, supporting myself to get through school, working in nightclubs and, you know, being an assistant bartender, cocktail waitress, barista, those kinds of things. You didn't encounter a lot of Mormon people. So. And then that his parents were very active. And so there was. Yeah, so there was a pretty. It was there. It was palpable. I mean, and they were a very devout Mormon family. So Mike's roots go back the Watt family, you know, they were pioneer stock. They were. So they have a lot of that in it just wouldn't go away. Right. Like the Mormonism wouldn't go away showing

Matthew Shakespear [00:18:59] up in your life.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:19:00] It just kept showing up. Anyway, on to another tumultuous relationship after that. I had a real knack. That's all tied in with my early history with trauma, though. It's like you can be the most sensible, intelligent person and that those unsolved and unresolved early traumas are just going to keep you repeating unhealthy cycles. And so that's what I did again. And interestingly though, this. This one partner was Christian and I had never read the Bible before. And in order for him to respect Buddhism at all or to have any, or at least to pretend that he was going to, I needed to read the Bible and I did that. And that kind of, I think, opened up my mind again to Mormonism. Is out there. It's some. It's this segue and byway, it's connecting all these things. There's something there I have to look at, but I wasn't ready to look at that relationship was very tumultuous. And at one point I left that. I was living with my sister in Spokane and she was kind of like, what do you call this? Warm, tepid water? Active. A little bit. Most of my siblings were a little bit active. And when I was staying there, I went to church with her and I decided this is. These are my roots. I really need to look into this. Right. I mean, I'm not a shining example of a perfect life. You know, maybe I can't discount some goodness here. If this is a place of goodness and boy, stability and organization. The Mormon Church is a. Is a model of that, of organizing benevolence. Right. Like goodness. There's so much to be offered there. That was always very interesting to me. I always spoke highly of it. And because of that, I had to be willing to look back at these roots and investigate them. And so I did the missionary talks. And that's unusual. They didn't want to do them because I was already a member. Right. And they're supposed to be doing this.

Matthew Shakespear [00:21:12] It's an awful use of time.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:21:13] Yeah, you got the mission, you got to the discussions. Because I needed to know I wasn't willing to just go to church. And I think that these are some of the things that I picked up from Buddhism over the 14 years that I really studied it is that just like you can't call yourself a Buddhist if you're not actually meditating, if you don't actually have a meditation practice, if you're not contemplative and you can't call yourself a Christian if you're not really reading the Bible. And I can't call myself Mormon. You. If I. I don't. I can't even explain it, you know, So I needed to take the discussions and they didn't want to give them to me because I was already technically a member. And so I had to.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] They didn't want to them.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:21:57] Well, I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe they're.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Because they were busy knocking doors, like, wasting time.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:03] So I would imagine.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:04] There's always that at least having served a mission and having, you know, had lots of. Had lots of experiences of like someone not moving through. Like, they're not. They're not. They're kind of stalling out. And so we're Going to have to drop them because they're not moving along. Progression needs to take place. Well, yeah, that could certainly run into the equation for the missionaries who taught you of like. But I think too, if you, if I remember right, as you've shared this with me, that it, it was also the fact that you had some pretty hard questions for them.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:22:42] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:43] You didn't, it wasn't. You weren't okay with just the surface level of the discussions that they wanted you to be okay with.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] You did take the discussions.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:22:55] I did, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [00:22:56] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:22:56] And they couldn't. It was sort of sad and it was sort of, I just say depressing because it was so disenchanting. Like they were terrible salesmen, I guess. Like they were just young, you know, and they're just. It's all rote. Right. And every time I would go deep, people would get really shifty and uncomfortable and then they would say these things that were so rehearsed and I was able to see that they were very young, you know, and what is a

John Dehlin [00:23:27] 19 year old kid from Utah or. I don't know, you know what I mean?

Matthew Shakespear [00:23:31] You know, I remember. No, no, no, it's good because I remember actually one experience we had. We got a referral in New York City and we went over to visit this, you know, 50 something year old man whose girlfriend at the time was a member of the church and she'd thrown a referral our way.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [00:23:46] But he said to us in the discussion, you guys are 19 years old. What would you really know about life? I mean, he was kind about it, but he was so certainly speaking the truth. Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:24:00] And I mean, I had already been through a lot, you know, and had seen a lot about life and realized that resilience comes from within, you know, not some higher power. That's like, I was. Anyway, it was a failure in terms of that point. Oh goodness. 36, 37.

Matthew Shakespear [00:24:28] Okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:24:30] Yeah, I was 37. And so, you know, I went back to really just. I had to be agnostic about everything. I just had to be agnostic. I didn't have the energy to practice Buddhism anymore. I just, I was a single mom trying to make it in a big city and it was difficult. And you know, still, Iris's dad is an incredibly wonderful man, a good man that his hard knocks, you know, he wasn't, he's not your traditional drug addict. You run into people who are addicts, you know, and it's like it's everything and anything for him it was, you know, these very specific things. But it's really hardcore. And that came from, I guess, having headaches as a child. And what do you. Percocet and Vicodin and things like that led to heroin. And that's a hard. Those are hard things. Those are the heart. Some of the hard things. As the mother of his child, wanting to keep him involved in his daughter's life was a priority for me. So I just was agnostic about all of those things and just in survival mode, trying to do the best that I could. And that took me through until 2015. 2000 2015. I just. It was just practicality. I no longer on a teacher's salary, could support two people in Seattle. It was impossible. And so I decided to look. My brother, my oldest brother still lives in this house that I grew up in that my dad built in. Now she's in Glied. And so I applied at teaching jobs to where I had gone to elementary school. And I got hired right away. I got job offers from all the ones. So this is also one of those interesting aspects of this whole story of ours is, you know, like the kismet, the cosmic, you know, the divine, whatever it was. I could have taken the teaching job in Yakima. And then. And even then, like, even if I had just chosen where I'd already put the deposit down to move into the apartment in Yakima instead of the apartment in Nachis, I would have never. I can guarantee you I would have never gone back to church. You know, my whole life they'd come and been kind and knocked on my door or left cookies or would sometimes would have conversations. But I for sure would have never become interested in becoming active again. But because I actually ended up taking the apartment in Natchez. So I took the teaching job at Nachis. The apartment in Nachees.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] And that's in Washington.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:27:14] Yeah, yeah. And it's just literally down the hill. The driveway up to the church is a hill and it goes down and then there's one little stop sign and I'm at this apartment here. Of course, members were like, you know. Anyway, well.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:28] And your brother. Her brother. Her oldest brother is a member of the ward, right?

John Dehlin [00:27:33] This is again, near Yakima.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:27:34] Yeah, near Yak. It's called Nachi's. Just a little blip.

Matthew Shakespear [00:27:37] Yep.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:27:39] Yeah. And so I. I wanted to try again to honor this. You know, there's something that. Something that has always just. It go courses through my veins is, I guess, this sort of mysticism almost. It's like this respect and wonder for just the mysteries of life, the awe of, like, okay, I can be agnostic, but yet there's something like. Of the infinite possibilities, you know, why here? Why now? Why am I living at the bottom of this hill in that church that I used to go to as a kid? And, you know, is there something beckoning me to investigate? Is there more? And there was a lot of hard things happening and going on. I mean, talk about some skeletons in the closet being rattled and shaken out, you know, there I was, teaching at the elementary school I had gone to when some really horrible things had happened to me as a kid, that now I'm suddenly like, wait, that's my daughter's classroom. And that was my. It was.

Elizabeth's Reasons for Joining the Church

John Dehlin [00:28:37] Whoo.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:28:37] That was the beginning of the undoing for me. Like, all these years of, like, pushing my own traumas down, and then it was hard. So. And I don't mean to sound cynical, but there's another part of me that wants to say, too. It's like, I've noticed that the people who are most vulnerable to coming into the church are the people that are really vulnerable, right? They're weak, they're going through a hard time. They're broken down, they're torn apart. You need this in your life. So, yeah, there I was like, you know, all the skeletons in my own closet have been rattled out. And I'm wondering things like, mom, dad, what the hell? Like, what. What. Why this religion? What was it about it? And, you know, that's a whole nother talk. But, you know, my dad being somebody who believed that the world was going to come to an end and that, you know, he was very. I don't know, Cleon Skousen, sort of. What was all of that?

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:37] Yeah, certainly.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:29:39] Yeah. So.

Matthew Shakespear [00:29:39] And, yeah, but also, I mean, of course, like, yeah, the great millennial reign of Christ will start very soon. So it's coming quickly.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:29:50] Underneath. My bedroom had been dug out to put, like, water jugs. And, you know, that's on top of the food storage. But I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I. I was wondering, like, what were you guys. They're. They've both passed away. So I would go to the cemetery, and I'd be like, is there, you know, something that I'm supposed to do here? Like, why am I living in this town? Like, why am I even here? It was horrible. It was traumatic to go from Seattle to Natchez. It was a. In many respects, it was a huge mistake. Like, it nearly crushed me. I couldn't. I found a lot of redemption in life through intellectual conversation. I, I like to be around people that are smarter than me. I like to read books that are above my level, I like to listen to. Because somehow that keeps me grounded. Insane, right? And then all of a sudden, here I was in this little town where it was horrible. I was teaching first grade. I mean, there was just no. So anyway, there I was going to church and I wanted to do it. I didn't like to do anything half heartedly, you know, I'm like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this full on. I want to know. I can't know why this is in my roots. There's no explanation. I can't know why my mom and dad were drawn into this. You know, I can't know why, but I can find out at least what, what it is about this church that has millions of people doing it and thinking that it is the one, you know, like somehow it. This is the truth. This is where it's at.

Matthew Shakespear [00:31:29] So, yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:31:31] And the other undeniable fact is Matthew. I mean, and again, we're meaning makers and we like to explain things in the past. I mean, I really feel like his experiences as a missionary in New York City the way, I mean, because you, you know, his background from Tropic, like, and then everything that I. Tropic's just

Matthew Shakespear [00:31:54] a small town as Natchees. Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:31:57] Like, I really think there were things that happened in your life. You know, two years ago we would have said something like it prepared me for this, you know, helping you into the fold again. Or it prepared, who knows. But the fact is, is that I do think that those experiences opened his mind in ways that prepared him. Well, I mean, you know, even. I don't, I don't know how much exposure to Buddhism you encountered, but you're dealing with a. I don't know, you're in New York City, your mission prepared you in some ways. We decided this and so we're sticking with the story right now.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Let me, before we jump into that and you guys meeting, I wanted, I want to revisit a bit a couple of the themes you talked about. And if it's okay, I want to share with you what my Mormon brain was doing as I'm hearing your story, please. So as someone who, okay, there was some adversity in my life growing up. My parents got divorced, we lived outside of Utah. But I mean, you know, for me it was super activity in church, seminary, you know, mission, byu, temple, marriage. Like I did the Mormon thing. I was Nephi. I did the Mormon thing. And so I think of myself as like a, and I've got the six year, sixth generation pioneer heritage on my mom's side and I'm related to Ezra Taft Benson and as a cousin. So like, so in my mind, my, my Mormon brain as I was hearing your story. So there's part of it that's like, oh, you didn't get the blue blood Mormon upbringing. I knew, you know, like pat on the head. Like, I knew Mormon families like yours that we always kind of looked at you in the ward and we're like,

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:33:39] oh, they don't hold that.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] No, no, no. And I'm not, I, I don't mean any disrespect, but I'm just saying. So that's one thing I feel is like, oh, you didn't get the real Mormon experience. You, you guys were kind of lower socioeconomic status, not orthodox. And so, yes, I'm, I feel so sorry for you. Okay, so that's part of my brain. Okay, Then part of my sort of my post Mormon brain is like, holy crap, you hit the lottery. Like, you, you weren't fully brainwashed or indoctrinated. And I don't mean that in an insulting way. I'm just explaining my brain for, for believing Mormons who are listening. But, but in my, I meet so many people that once they, they, they get the blue blood.

Matthew Shakespear [00:34:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Mormon upbringing. And then they're 40 or 50 and they lose their faith and they're like, oh, if I could have just like not had the conditioning, I could have, like, explored. I could have dated who I wanted and lived the life I wanted and maybe made some mistakes and tried drugs and tried alcohol and dated who I wanted and, and lived a more authentic life. And then I could have, then I could have had the life that I was really meant to have instead of this life where now I'm 30 or 40 or 50 and I'm thinking, I made all these decisions that I wouldn't have made if I hadn't have been conditioned. So there's another part of my brain as I'm hearing your story that's like, you, what? You had it. You were like, you had exposure to Buddhism. Like you were living the authentic life and you were figuring out, you were learning to listen to yourself. You were learning to become motivated. You were figuring out what you did and didn't believe. And I'm like, oh, you had it. No, no, what are you doing? You know, like, so, so on that hand, I'm kind of like jealous. But then you, but then you're telling me how hard it is for you. Multiple marriages, a husband who's an ad, you know, an addict. And you know, so that I'm, that's what my post Mormon brain is thinking and feeling. And then the final part is like, you're like, oh, oh, she's coming back to church. Like, wait, wait, you had that freedom and now you're coming back. Like, why would you, why would you, why would anybody either join the church in the modern era, join the Mormon Church with the Internet, with all the books, all the information, why would anybody choose to either join the church as an intelligent, enlightened adult, or if they had been raised in the church and had experienced the freedom of a non controlling, non conditioned, unorthodox life, why would they ever want to like come step back into the church and potentially put themselves on the road of that conditioning again? So I don't know. That's really not a question. I'm just processing this with you and sharing my mixed feelings as you tell the story. And now I would just ask you, is there anything you want to say about all that? Take as long as you want because I mean it with reverence and respect.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:36:59] I feel that. I want you to know I feel that. And thank you. That's beautiful. And there was a lot in there and a lot came up for me and unfortunately for me, my brain runs really fast and I can't hang on to it. It's like that's why I'm so impulsive and blurty. He knows this about me now. It's like if I don't interrupt you until you what I'm thinking now, I will have already thought 8 million other thoughts. So but what I am going to pull out of that. One of the most salient things that you said was you're commenting about it's that pity and that's one of the most disgusting things about the church and that I realized. So there's that point which I want to talk more about. And then there's the other thing, you know, wow, I'm so lucky in some ways and so unfortunate in other ways. And that's the human. I mean, Matthew really did have a charmed life in many ways. But we also have to remember that, or at least I don't think, you know, that it's ever really as simple as our narrative can convey. Right. So I really do think at the heart of the matter for everybody, suffering is real. You know, everyone is suffering. Some people's is just more obvious. Right. Mine was really obvious because like, keeping up the appearances wasn't even in the framework for my family.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] I mean, survival, right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:38:24] Yeah. Oh, it was survival. And I mean, so there's the epigenetic inheritance that I really inherited from a mom by the time I came around anyway, who was totally stressed out and not sure what she was going to do. Is there any way out of this marriage? Can I finally. She'd never had a life of her own, you know, she'd been orphaned and abused. And then she was 16 and my dad was 36, I think when they got married. And you know, she was pushed to get married when all she wanted was to graduate from high school. She didn't know anyone that had graduated from high school that she. Is that so much to ask, you know, but no, done in the eighth grade. And life is survival. So keeping up with the Joneses and appearances was just not enough.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Or even like you said, masturbation. Like what? That's.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:39:13] Yeah. That's so not on the radar of

Matthew Shakespear [00:39:15] an important thing in life like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's food, it's shelter.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:39:21] Absolutely. And survival. I mean, my brothers joke about how for their birthdays they would get a gallon of milk and a pound of bacon. And that was really freaking monumental. Like when you have to. You're like fighting for food. I mean, I think we all grew up malnourished and like truly like. And to this day, my totem animal is a feral cat. I am a feral cat. My nervous system is wired to. Somebody drops something and I'm like shocked. So it's survival. So I learned so much in my studies of Buddhism that was grounding and life saving and helpful. But what's at the core of who I am is curiosity. And that resonates so much for both of us is curiosity. I mean, I think he learned to pushes down and hide it and just out of survival. Like I couldn't indulge my curiosity, you know, but as I. As I've grown older, you know, so I'm in my 30s now and yeah, I'm dealing with all sorts of traumas and a brand new one that's unfolding, you know, as I moved in to Nachees, I needed to honor something about my roots when we don't even know very much about our roots, you know, it's. It's a. It's a mess. There wasn't even a birth certificate for my mom. She's born in a house, her dad was in prison. Like, you don't. I've got some roots. And what I know about my roots is that for some weird reason, my parents wanted to be Mormon. Why? You know, and I'm here and I'm going to find out. Like, I went to this church sometimes. I might as well be able to answer more in depth questions about it. When people, you know, ask me, I had respect for the church. I always did. I always felt like it was. I always had good. You know, in life, you run across people who will say snide things or, you know, condescending things toward whatever it might be. But if those came up about the Mormon religion or that faith in particular, I would defend it. So the years that I lived in Salt Lake City, all I did was climb. That was my passion. That was my. What do people say? Oh, now, that was my jam. Yeah. So. But in the climbing community and living in Salt Lake, I would, you know, encounter Mormons. And if somebody had some pejorative thing to say, I was always there to be the defender. Right? Like, so now I want to find out why and what better opportunity than things couldn't be more falling apart than they are. And if I'm going to reconstruct some coherent fabric of my history, can I at least find out what the hell this religion is really even about? I really didn't know. I couldn't tell you. That's what I did. And the only reason I really was willing to do it, to indulge this curiosity, so to speak, was because this phenomenal man, this bishop, who was, like, right out of the gate, he was open. Like, when I say open, what I mean is the sense of heart, open, mind, open. He wasn't. He didn't give me that feeling that my. My membership or my whatever going to church or whatever was, was contingent upon the ultimate goal of my being, like, I don't know, taken into the fold. He was respectful when I said pretty much straight up, like, well, this is more of what I believe. Like, you know, I have these. I'm not practicing Buddhism, so to speak, right now, because I'm not practicing anything but survival right now. But that's important to me. And I don't know why you were like that, because I look at your background and it doesn't make sense. But he's just a kind, truly compassionate being who doesn't, like, shut the door on something in that way that I usually felt from. I don't know whether it was the sisters that would come visit or whoever. It just always felt like they had this ultimate agenda, which was to get me into the church.

Matthew Shakespear [00:43:35] Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:43:35] Gonna make you better. Okay, so that links into the other piece of what you were saying. Yes, yes. There's this, like, this pity. And I guess what really frustrates me most about that is the hypocrisy of it. You know, it's beyond ironic, like, but the hypocrisy. But the irony too. It's like all of the investment in modesty and the way that that word is used in young women and thrown around, it was, it's actually sickening to me because it's so immodest, it's so lacking in humility, it's so proud. It's just filled with this aggressive, judgmental pity. Right. On others because I'm superior, because I'm not showing my shoulders. I'm better than you, you know, because I would never, you know, wear something that revealing. But wow, like that, that was also fascinating to me. Like I wanted to understand the psychology behind that. And is that doctrine, is there something there that like creates this, this, this climate of contradiction? Right. Like we're so meek and, and humble. But yet, you know, in these young women's lessons about modesty and chastity, it was just, I'm just going to say disgusting for lack of a better, more kind, you know, or just. That's what it was. It's gross. And I don't know if you guys have anything to say about that. It sounds kind of hostile of me, but it is gross. And it's one of those parts that I wanted to understand. I wanted to understand where that came from. Like, how can you teach? I had never felt so, really, honestly, I'd never felt as judged as I did by some youth in the church who had been taught so intensely that it was ingrained in their brain that when I was wearing a bikini, they said, well, first of all, I think it was like a two or three year old little girl was like, why are you wearing that? And then I have some tattoos too, and they're like, why do you have that? And then another child said, my family hates bikinis. I'm like, whoa, these are kids. Like, I've never felt so judged. It was so harsh. And then, you know, being in a car one time with a child who's like, I don't want to see your shoulders. I'm like, my shoulders, I know, they're really bony. They're gross, aren't they? What is this? You know, I don't know. And I, and I kept wanting in the Ingrained Buddhism in me is like, you have to find compassion for this. You have to. But to have compassion for something, truly, you have to understand it. And I want to understand it. And bingo, after I got endowed and I was wearing garments, I was at a fourth of July gathering and a less than active member. You know, one of those. It's so weird how once the knowledge can opens up inside of you, it explodes. There's new connections, there's these new neural pathways. You know, this is the double edged sword of neuroplasticity is it goes both ways, bad and good, right? So bam. I'm expanded into this new territory where I'm judging this woman because she shows up at the 4th of July gathering wearing a tank. Tank top. I would never wear a tank top now. Right? Like that's. I am covered with my holy garments, right? Like I just feel superior and I just.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Whoa. You become what you became, what you hated.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:47:44] Oh. It was like. But I was immediately conscious of it. It's this weird metacognitive experience. Like as it was unfolding, I could viscerally feel it happening. It was like this conjoining, like this weird alchemy happening between my brain and my guts. Right where I'm sudden, like, like as it's unfolding, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is it. It's like it's in me. It's that blue blood, John. It's like suddenly coursing through my veins and it's like touching my heart. And it's both. It's like the voices of the brethren in the church. It's like both soothing and absolutely making my skin crawl at the same time. Right. Like it's the ephemeral, the inexplicable, the. You know, you can't. But man, it's powerful. So did that answer your question?

John Dehlin [00:48:42] So when you entered the ward, Matthew, were you already bishop or.

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:48] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] So. Yeah. So you. So you enter the ward while he's Bishop.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:48:52] He had just became Bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] You just so is almost serendipitous.

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:57] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:48:58] Right?

Matthew Shakespear [00:48:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Okay. You like that?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:49:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] Okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:49:03] We can tell ourselves. Whatever story feels good is the bottom line.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] So is this the point in the discussion where we talk about you guys together like your journey's in parallel?

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:15] Right. Yeah, I think. I think this is probably a good, good place where that kind of. Where. Where the lanes merge. Right. Okay.

Parallel Faith Journeys as Bishop and Ward Member

John Dehlin [00:49:21] So let's just do it chronologically and the, the couple things we're going to be tracking are your faith journey as a Bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [00:49:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] Anything about your marriage that you want to talk about, and then your re. Entry into the church, your interactions with Bishop Shakespear, and then whatever your growth and experiences, and then, of course, the development of your relationship and the disintegration of your mutual faith, and then how that all unwinds and plays out.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:49:55] I feel like we need a moment of silence just to, like, sit on the fact that that's going to be hard. I mean, it's hard to be accurate and truthful and honest. And I know I'm going to say something that's gonna offend someone somewhere or hurt someone somewhere, and that's never my intention, but I am committed to honesty. Even when it hurts.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:18] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:50:18] Because the dishonesty hurts. It's just like pulling off the band aid slower is all.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:26] All right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] So here goes.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:28] Well, let's see. So where does this so do chronologically? Yeah. So Elizabeth's oldest brother lives in the ward. I think he was probably the one who was responsible for making sure your membership records got transferred in.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:50:44] Thanks, Mark.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:45] Yeah, good job. A great brother. Great older brother.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:50:49] He is.

Matthew Shakespear [00:50:50] And so, you know, of course, membership records come in and. And with the name and also just knowing her brother. Hey, my sister just moved in to town and definitely wanting to do the best job we can as a ward council to help someone who's moved in to feel supported and so forth. So organize or talk about this member of record that has moved in. Talk to the Relief Society on Word Council and. And, you know, teaching at the elementary school where some of my kids went to school. And it's really interesting because my former wife says, so one day, hey, Mark's younger sister moved into the ward. You're aware of that, right? She's at the school. She's teaching at the school. You know, so just definitely wanting to show support, to be supportive of someone. Certainly that was my desire as a bishop, was to really be honestly and genuinely helpful at some point. Well, let's see. I think it was. So it was December of 2015, so you'd moved in, and the summer of 2015, she came with her brother to the ward Christmas party.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:52:25] No, my daughter. I don't think.

Matthew Shakespear [00:52:28] Mark wasn't there.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:52:29] My brother Mark used to go to sacrament.

Matthew Shakespear [00:52:31] So it's funny because she came and that's where we met, actually face to face.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Now that you mentioned those dates, let me just ask. So, yeah, by. By summer of 2014, Kate Kelly would have been excommunicated. And then by February ish of 2015, I would have Been excommunicated.

Matthew Shakespear [00:52:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] Jeremy Runnels came soon after, I think. And the November 2015 policy would have happened the month before.

Matthew Shakespear [00:52:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] You guys. So is there. In terms of your faith journey.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] And your awakening about problems of the church, is there anything you want to mention prior to.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:08] Yeah. Thank you. I'm glad you asked that question because there's just probably one thing. Definitely not aware of your excommunication. I'd never heard your name nor. Nor that of Jeremy Reynolds. Right. So

John Dehlin [00:53:21] they think I'm always trying to direct interview back to me. That's never my intent. All I'm trying to do is highlight the fact that the bubble that Mormons live in is so strong.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Like, you know, my excommunication was literally multiple articles in the New York Times. It was tweeted by the New York Times. It was a global story.

Matthew Shakespear [00:53:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Kelly stuff everything. And csr, whatever it is, the Internet Mormon stories have been going for 10 years at that point. And Mormons live today in 2021 continue to be unaware of all of this. Not that I'm so important or we're so important. I'm just trying to say how strong the Mormon bubble is for keeping out information, for making sure people are unaware of any questions or problems or threatening people and keeping people focused on only correlated approved materials. Keeping them afraid of asking questions, of learning new things or exploring things that are all around them. Yeah. And Mormons, the bubble is so powerful, people are oblivious to it.

Matthew Shakespear [00:54:30] Right. Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] Is that okay?

Matthew Shakespear [00:54:31] That Absolutely. No, no. And. And I appreciate that because it was completely the case. Now. I was aware, like I had mentioned earlier, I was aware of the Kate Kelly excommunication because that was a topic of discussion in a. This is before I was called to be bishop, a Stake High council meeting. It was. It probably took up 45 minutes of that meeting. Just the discussion. I'm trying understand that it was good and certainly again, maybe a little bit of an opening of kind of this feminist awakening that wow, maybe the sisters are really sincere about how they feel. But it wasn't much. Right. So I don't want to make too much of that for my. In my consciousness. It was just a little blip. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] Let me also say I reading through your notes, you mentioned exposure to the God Makers on your mission.

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:55:21] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Want to mention.

Matthew Shakespear [00:55:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] And then.

Matthew Shakespear [00:55:24] Yeah, so yeah, we'll jump there. Definitely on my mission had some. It was just when I was serving with an English speaking companion, some of his converts, you know, people he'd Worked with and helped baptize. Had. Had run into the God Makers. And they called him up and said, hey, Elder, what gives? What's this about? And we're like, we're, you know, we're not supposed to view that kind of material as missionaries, right? But. But remember, we're living the higher law, right? We're not living the law of Moses. We can handle this. So we actually. They're like, we want. We want you to answer these questions that we have about this movie. And so we go to their. To an apartment and we watch the God Makers one and two right after.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Right?

Matthew Shakespear [00:56:13] And we. We talk to the investigators and say it's all just, you know, it's all just deception. Right? They start off with speaking some truths that turn to half truths that turn to blatant lies. Okay. Now, it didn't really was kind of a bit disconcerting for me at the time, but I moved. I moved past it pretty quick. But my companion struggled. I remember him actually calling up the mission president a few times. And really, I don't know what was said in the conversations, but I do know, and certainly just because of his demeanor, it really affect. It affected him deeper than it did me. I kind of. It didn't create a lot of. A lot of cracks for me, really didn't. It just. Was something that I kind of glossed over. I was. It was kind of the backfire effect, right. So I was just. Just entrenched me stronger, which is unique. But, you know, that's the thing you don't forget. You don't forget it for sure. And. And it's. And it's like, it's. It's. When someone questions what they've believed all their life, the. The environment around it plays such a big part, you know, and so to say that one thing might cause the crack that creates the questioning of faith for one person. It may not even. Not even cause a blink of an eye for another because of all of the environment that surrounds it for that particular person. Right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [00:57:46] So gospel topic essays are a perfect example of that. Right. Like some people, it's so fascinating to me. They can read them and just be like, what?

Matthew Shakespear [00:57:56] Yeah, yeah, you know, for sure. So it didn't really affect me much. I moved past that and it didn't really enter my consciousness for a long time for. Again. Right. So let's see, where were we then?

John Dehlin [00:58:12] Kelly.

Matthew Shakespear [00:58:12] So Kate Kelly. Yeah. Talked about that. Didn't really. Again, it was something that was maybe just a little bit of a blip for me. Called to be bishop November 2015. That came through. I was like, okay, this is the marching orders from the leaders of the church. And what we were instructed to do as leaders of wards, probably a month after the policy had been made public, is that we were supposed to hold a combined priesthood, relief society and youth lesson and actually, as leaders of the ward, present the information in the best light, basically. I mean, in the best light possible to present what the policy was to. And we were kind of given some script and some information that they wanted us to share regarding that. So I took on the challenge to be the one that led that lesson. So that was probably in the early part of December where we did that combined lesson. And, you know, at the end, I mean, I felt like, you know, I. I felt like I was acting in love for all our brothers and sisters, no matter what their orientation may have been. And I didn't necessarily even see the. The inequity that existed because it's just. It's the doctrine of the church, Right. I mean. I mean, I. Honestly, to be truthful, I was still kind of more along the lines of it is somewhat of a choice, right, that these individuals would make to be gay or to be gay or lesbian or bisexual. Right. So. But I also have some cousins who. Who were openly gay. And I remember this was prior to that time, but I remember a discussion in my family where their parent, you know, his. His parent was, do I go to their wedding? He lives in New York. Do I go to his wedding or not? And it was a really tough choice. Like, if I go, that means I'm supporting or condoning this behavior. But if I don't go, maybe he doesn't feel like I love him, you know, like that. Like, of course, in. Now I can see, like, why should a parent have to question that at all? Like, why should that even be a concern? But that's now, right? So then it was different for me, but I remember giving that lesson and feeling so good about having presented the information and what I felt like it was a very loving way. And I remember, you know, older members of the ward, you know, one had. Has previously been a stake president, right. And coming up to me at the. At the end, great lesson, Bishop. That was so. So well explained and so articulated in such a good way. But aren't you glad that you weren't a bishop of the. Of one of the university wards over in Seattle? Ha ha ha.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Meaning.

Matthew Shakespear [01:01:41] Meaning a lot of those students in those student wards in Seattle on Capitol Hill, like many of them, are LGBTQ in some way or another, Right? So, of course, the lesson would have been much harder to give. I mean, I was. I was in the middle of the pond, right? There was not. But I remember, though, that comment threw me. And, boy, was it a good thing that Elizabeth wasn't there to hear that lesson, because I think that would have, like, been like, I'm not even investigating anymore, right? Because of her. Her life experience. She would have been like, this inequity is. Is. Is not acceptable. Right? But I remember for me, I was like, ha, ha, ha. For those young people who feel the way they do, It's not funny. So I guess my heart was opened by that comment of, wow, maybe I just gave a great lesson about loving the people, but, you know, disdaining the sin. But that doesn't feel right when you say, aren't you glad that you weren't teaching this in a university ward in Seattle? Because those people are really human beings, too.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] So

Matthew Shakespear [01:03:46] just. Just another blip, right? Another something added there. But that was the policy, right? That was. That was what the church was going to do. So I was a representative of the Brethren, right? And so that's what I was going to do.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:04:11] So

Matthew Shakespear [01:04:14] December Christmas party, Elizabeth and Iris come. I remember it was actually an older sister in the ward who was. Was maybe in the young women's when you were active or maybe not just. Just there. So she introduced us. It was kind of funny because she says, you know, Bishop Shakespear, this is Elizabeth Watt. She grew up in the ward. You know, she's a. It was kind of funny because she says, a beautiful. A beautiful woman or something like that. And. And I was like, well, yeah, she's beautiful, right? But it was just kind of funny in retrospect the way that the sister introduced her. But, you know, if you want to go, I guess maybe to just like, There was just a curiosity that was immediate of wanting to get to understand this human, this wonderful human who, I don't know, you let you introduce yourself to someone and look into their eyes and you sometimes see maybe something that's hard to explain. But I felt that way maybe just out of feeling like I would like to understand this person and know how I can be of service and of help and to them. She's a single mom back here in a town where, even though having grown up there, probably doesn't have many friends left around and is definitely feeling like she was in need of support. So I remember probably it was maybe a month or two after that where I. Where we visited And I shared what was something that's always been a theme in my mind, in my consciousness about when I make decisions and when things are tough. But the story of the brother of Jared from the Book of Mormon, the Book of Ethereum, And how. Here it is. This, this man has got a task that has been assigned by God to, to move his family across the great waters, right? And, and, and basically he's given the, the big picture outline of what needs to be done and then he's turned loose to decide the method and means by which that will take place. How do we build a ship? Well, these are the parameters that it needs to meet, right? It needs to be tight, watertight. We need to of course, be able to breathe and we need to, needs to be strong and you know, all those parameters. Well, then he comes up with his plan for the ships and then, boy, we sure need some light, right? Some light in these vessels. How do we, where do, how do we get the light? And the Lord says to him, you come up with the plan. You know, you can do this. You tell me what you want me

John Dehlin [01:07:38] to do

Matthew Shakespear [01:07:42] and I'll touch that and it will work, right? So he says, I'm going to molten these stones and I'm going to do this work. And then, and then I'm going to say in all humility to you, Lord, please touch these stones, that they'll glow and they'll give us light. But that, so here it is that we are given problems in our own lives and we have to come up with the best plan we can. And then say, lord, touch these stones that they'll have light, that this project for me will succeed. It's the best I can do but make the best of it. So that was maybe one of our first visits face to face. And the funny thing is, go ahead and share your experience of that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:08:38] Well, yeah, I mean, this is what's so wild just about life is we're all viewing from our window, right? And my perspective on this story, like, well, first of all, my daughter's in her room. She's back there making, I'm trying to keep her entertained and you know, make sure she's not interrupting. Matthew used to be, I think you've gotten, you've changed it. But he used to be a very soft talker and, and I could tell that the story he was sharing was so meaningful and it was really interesting to me as well. Like, I loved the symbology of the light and the stones. So those were the two things that were really jumping out at me. But for one thing, I was distracted. Right. I was distracted and I'm trying to focus. I can remember it's indelibly seared, like, where you were sitting on the edge of my futon and how your body was positioned and, like, the temperature of the room felt too hot. And I just remember just seeing, like, so much humility and love and passion. You were sharing this story from the bottom of your heart. It was a story that was meaningful. I had no freaking clue what the story was about. Like, none of it was making real sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] He was in your house.

Matthew Shakespear [01:09:54] Why?

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:09:55] Well, I don't even know he was in your house.

Matthew Shakespear [01:09:56] I went there to visit, to introduce myself and get to know her better.

John Dehlin [01:10:00] To a ward member.

Matthew Shakespear [01:10:01] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:10:02] Yeah. And I mean, they had been showing up.

Matthew Shakespear [01:10:05] Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you had kind of a constant stream, I'd say, to knock him at your door of Relief Society Sisters or ward members.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:10:13] Ward members.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] It's the bishop's visit. Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:10:16] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:10:17] And it just felt really. It just felt meaningful. You presented as somebody just so sincere and so kind, you know, and just this again, there. There was something there that just felt so right to me. Like, there's something so beautiful here. I have to explore this. Like, there has to be this. There's depth and dimension and meaning yet that I've. I'm going to figure out, you know, And I didn't mind. One of my first things was figure out what the freaking story was. I'm, like, trying to look through this Book of Mormon, you know, and I'm trying to, like. And I'm fascinated by it. And I think I asked you again, and I was embarrassed. I didn't want to be like, what was that story you were telling me? Like. But it.

Matthew Shakespear [01:11:05] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, as. As time progressed, I mean, it was just occasional visit. Right. And. And you started to attend church.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:11:20] Yeah, every so often to attend.

Matthew Shakespear [01:11:23] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:11:23] My daughter was.

Matthew Shakespear [01:11:25] Yeah. Really nervous about that. My youngest son is about her age, and they knew one another from school, and they show up on a Sunday, and right after sacrament meeting, my youngest son goes over. Wow, has he been trained? Right. Because he. He goes over and he's like, hey, Iris, do you want to come with me to class? I can see that you might be afraid, but you can come and you can sit by me and we'll go to primary together. And that's like. I mean, that's. There it is. Right. As a parent, you're like, whoa, you know, isn't that. Didn't we didn't, isn't, didn't he learn well, didn't we teach him well to be looking out for people who are new or for people who feel uncomfortable? So yeah, that was kind of,

John Dehlin [01:12:45] it

Matthew Shakespear [01:12:45] was just occasional visits at that point. So helping out where I could, if, if I was aware of something that, that she stood in need of helping with those things, certainly wanting her to be involved. I asked her to prepare kind of in one of the things that I liked most about serving as bishop, specifically because it was kind of more of an explicit responsibility. But it was girls camp and, and their girls camp was organized on a stake level. So it wasn't just the ward that would go and do girls camp in the summer, but all the whole stake would go at the same time. And we have a couple church owned recreational properties close by, just up the canyon a ways, about 45 minutes. And. But I asked in preparation for girls Camp, I asked Elizabeth to. Wanting her to be involved, right? Everybody needs a responsibility, right? A friend or responsibility and nourishment, by the good word of God, you guys

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:13:58] know what, what the things are, right? Like, so I'm going to hone in. She's an outdoorsy type. I'm going to hone in.

Matthew Shakespear [01:14:05] Yeah, yeah. So, so knowing having been made, you know, learned of her, her predilection for outdoor adventure and knowing that she had traveled, I asked her to kind of as a theme, to prepare the young women to present kind of some adventures and so forth and encourage the young women to be open to the adventure of life. Right. In preparation for girls camp. So at some point, which would have been summer of 2016 or spring of 2016, you presented, by the way, that

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:14:42] was good for me. I always get nervous speaking in front of people. Like I might faint because I would sometimes. But yeah, so I got to talk about my adventures and I had done a lot of adventures, you know, and one that I wasn't, I couldn't, I wanted to pick and choose. Like, is it appropriate that I tell them that, you know, I bought a round trip ticket to Australia once and it was a three month round trip ticket and I didn't know where I was going to go when I got off the plane. I had $300 and I hitchhiked the whole time I was there. Is that appropriate that I share that with them? And so it was helpful for me. Like, it's always, it was always good for me to have opportunities to integrate my life, you know, and figure things out. But I wanted to know, yeah, what are the bounds.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:15:34] What would be appropriate to share? Right. Because probably the Mormon parents didn't want their daughters thinking it was good to go off to Australia and hitchhike for

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:15:44] three months or like living in my Volkswagen van and just like rock climbing, you know, is that like. It was, it was a good exercise for me. It was a good exercise to get to practice like sharing, but it was really hard. It was definitely a hard thing.

Matthew Shakespear [01:15:59] But yeah. So to continue like girls camp was really, I mean, of course, having. I have four daughters.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:16:07] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [01:16:07] And it's one, two, three are girls. And so being a part of girls camp, I went up there the first year as bishop, so 2015 and then 2016. I mean, after 2015, I was sold on girls camp. Wow, what an amazing experience to observe. And really why did I need to be there? Because these women, stake leaders, ward leaders, women, and these young women. Were capable of doing everything that was needed there. And I know that the idea, part of the idea is that to have men who hold the priesthood there in case someone needs a blessing or a priesthood blessing or also with the idea of protection. It was a church owned camp and there were full time missionaries that were assigned to be there. I'm not sure that necessarily protection is really.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:17:30] I think you realized that in your feminist awakening.

Matthew Shakespear [01:17:33] Yeah, for sure. But, but yeah. Why, why did I need to be there? It was just amazing to sit back and watch to hear the music of these young women and their kindness and their, their talent and their capability. I just loved it. I loved it. One of the, I mean, the, the highlights is really, I mean, the highlights of every summer was girls camp for me. And I do everything I could to make sure I could be there, to be a part of as much a part of just observing that experience as I could be. So that's a little bit of an aside, but it just was powerful part of my service.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Did that plant some seeds in your feminist awakening, though?

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:30] Absolutely. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Because you wondered why you were there.

Matthew Shakespear [01:18:35] Yeah, I mean, I didn't need to be there. I mean, the only thing is like, okay, yeah, maybe I was asked to give some priesthood blessings, but if the sisters felt like they had the authority to do it, they could have done that just fine too. Of course, that's something that I realized later on. But even still, I think deep down, I mean, that was something in church history where sisters at one point in time felt the, the sanction of the leaders to, to give blessings.

John Dehlin [01:19:12] Laying on of hands.

Matthew Shakespear [01:19:13] Laying on of hands and healing.

John Dehlin [01:19:14] Women used to do that. In the church and then it got taken away.

Matthew Shakespear [01:19:18] Exactly. So yeah, that's so 2016. I think an experience to share that is important that I wanted to share. It was fall of 2016. It was time to get a new stake president in the stake and in preparation for calling a new stake president. And this is the way it, I observed it. And I think it's pretty much the common practice is that they like to the visiting general authorities, members of the quorum of the 70 or area authority 70s maybe be paired with them. So they would, they would send out a survey through the stake president that would be given to all of the currently active, currently serving bishops and members of the high council to be interviewed. So you'd fill out a survey of, you know, previous church service and you'd include a picture of yourself and family situation, work situation and those kinds of things. And then, then the plan was that they would interview us on the Saturday of state conference in the morning and just I talked about, you know, going from one thing to the next thing to the next thing, changing in the parking lot, in my car or in my truck. This was one of those days. My oldest son had a hunter safety course. The practical exam that he was doing, that's that morning. So I went with him to that halfway through, in order to meet the appointment, his mom came out and switched me off. I went from my blue jeans to my suit directly to the stake center and waited for my appointed interview. I also had recurrent training for a part time flying job that I do. So I fly a King Air 350 on just kind of a part time basis for a corporation in Washington. And every year we have to do recurrent training to be current. And so I had the retraining that afternoon as well. So if all the stars align just right, I go from my son's hunter safety course test to my interview and then on I have a two hour drive to Moses Lake to my recurrent training and then back after that's over to the adult session of state conference I. They were running behind likely would be the case. Right. They can't hold the interviews to eight minutes. It's kind of difficult. I meet with Elder Hamula and Elder Blanc.

John Dehlin [01:22:29] This is James Hamula.

Matthew Shakespear [01:22:30] James Hamula was excommunicated, correct? Yeah, yeah. So interestingly, he comes back into the story later. But it was, it was a heartfelt interview. They asked me about my experiences on my mission. I think that was partly because of the reputation surrounding that particular time period of New York South. Maybe I don't know, I could just be making meaning out of nothing. But I shared with them what I felt about my mission being a great learning experience for me. Shared about my just desire to serve people and my love of people. Figured that was it. So I run out of that interview, change clothes in the parking lot, speed to Moses Lake to my recurrent training, call my boss and tell him I'm going to be an hour late. They start training without me. I show up, I sit down, and the currently serving stake president calls my phone. I'm in the middle of my class and I don't answer it, but then he sends an email and a text message. Bishop Shakespear, we need to talk to you as soon as possible. Will you please call me? Okay, So I call, they want to talk to you again. And I say, that's going to be hard because I'm in Moses Lake. You're where? I'm in Moses Lake for my recurrent training. Oh, well, maybe we'll talk with your wife then. So they call her in to speak with them to get to know her and my situation better through her, of course. I'm feeling like, I mean, anyway, just kind of deer in the headlights, but also feeling like, wow, there's something pretty powerful happening here and maybe I should just tell the owner of the flight service that I need to go home and if he fires me, so be it. Right? I mean, that's how dedicated I am to this cause, right? I mean, this is really just a part time thing anyway. So I was just ready to accept the fact that I might just get fired and he just let me go and that would be the end of my little part time flying gig that I loved. But there's a greater cause, there's a greater purpose at play here. Right?

John Dehlin [01:25:23] So what are you thinking it might be about at that point?

Matthew Shakespear [01:25:26] Oh, it was. It was pretty evident by. By what the currently serving stake president had expressed like I was like. I expressed something like, wow, what, you know, what's going on? He says, bishop, I know you maybe not be expecting this, but this is. I'm pretty significant.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:25:45] They wanted him.

Matthew Shakespear [01:25:45] So what are you supposed to do with that? Meaning, like, you're either, you're. You're likely being called to be the stake president or in the presidency.

John Dehlin [01:25:56] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:26:01] So they visit with my wife, they. And she calls me and says, I think you should just come home. I think you should just come here. You should come back. I tell them that I need. There's something going on. I think I even said something like something going on with the church, and they need me to come back and be there. And he's familiar enough with living in Moses, like where a third of the population is Mormon. He's familiar enough to go, well, okay, well, let me know. Go ahead, go. So I speed back to Yakima. The adult session of state conference was underway at that point. And I, after that meeting was over, I approached the current stake president, and I say, so do you need to speak with us anymore? And he says, nope, I think that's all taken care of. And so that was like, okay, so what do you, like, so you don't need here. You don't. Is that okay? They've just made another. Gone a different direction. And I think that's what he said. He said they've. They. They elected to go a different direction. They chose someone else, meaning they chose somebody else. But at that point. Right. So of course I was disappointed. I mean, when, when you want to achieve in the system in which you're brought up, when you, you, you, you know, and I don't think it was necessarily. Well, it was, I guess, could. Could be driven by ego,

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:28:03] but I

Matthew Shakespear [01:28:04] think just to say driven by ego is incorrect because it really was out of a desire to do what God wanted me to do and feeling like I had a lot to offer. Right. And we all feel that way, so I'm not unique. But he was aware that it was kind of a shock. He wasn't blind to that. And so my wife and I go home kind of feeling a mix of rejected, dejected, having gone from, like, wow, this is kind of wild and crazy and amazing to, I guess we didn't make the cut.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:28:53] Right. It's this, this collision of the secular worries and concerns with the metaphysical higher power and, like, trying to reconcile. Was this just an interview that went wrong? Is this God's calling?

Matthew Shakespear [01:29:08] So I remember my. That was one thing that really was a struggle for my wife was she's like, they didn't pick you because they didn't like me. Because I said something wrong in the interview when they talked with me, you know, I mean, that's like, that's just tough. It's just difficult all the way around.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] You also, you also have to ask, like, well, wait, if I had not been at this training, if I had been there to receive the call, certainly then what? If I had had the interview, they would have really felt good about it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:29:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] Then I might have been called.

Matthew Shakespear [01:29:51] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] And then do I feel bad about that? You just want to serve and you want to absolutely. Capacity and help as many people as possible. So it's not necessarily just ambition, although it can be.

Matthew Shakespear [01:30:03] It can be. Yeah. There's.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] But it's, but it's also just like, what if I had not been at this job thing? And then do they just call whoever, like, right. If they were thinking me, why wouldn't they pursue that all the way versus like, oh, oh, we can't come. I guess, you know, we got to make a quick decision.

Matthew Shakespear [01:30:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:21] Because you know, have to. They're oftentimes they're sent to make that decision. They're under a deadline and they're under a deadline. So they. So then you're like, what is he just making whatever pragmatic decision he can? And I guess as a bishop, you know that that might be how decisions are made because you had to make decisions like that as a.

Matthew Shakespear [01:30:38] Certainly. Right, Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:30:40] And to speak to that, there certainly is in my experience. Okay. So in making decisions about callings as a bishop, I guess I approached it with maybe about. I felt like it was a balance of what was pragmatic and then confirmed by the spiritual experience or the confirmation. So when considering callings for people, it would be like, okay, so who is physically able, who likely has the time to dedicate to whatever calling it might be? And so that narrows the list. And then, and then what have they served in before? Is this something? What is their family situation like? So for me it was looking at all those factors and then, and then settling on someone. And then it was a matter of seeking for spiritual confirmation. So it wasn't just a matter of trying to pray and that a name would appear out of the ether, so to speak, but that it was both pragmatic and spiritual. So I suppose that's probably. It seems pretty similar for a lot

John Dehlin [01:32:02] of people, but you tell that story. You tell the story. Why? What did it end up?

Matthew Shakespear [01:32:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] To you.

Matthew Shakespear [01:32:07] So, but yet. So to continue a bit further, and I'll share the meaning for me was that it was 10:30, 11:00 clock that night. The, the outgoing stake president calls and says, hey, how are you and your wife feeling? I said, it's a mix. It's, it's, it's. I don't know how to explain exactly how we're feel, but it's hard. And he says, yeah, I understand. I felt like that might be the case. Elder Hamula and Elder Blanc want to visit with you prior to state conference tomorrow morning to share with you their experience. Okay, so we went. And it was primarily Elder Blanc who, who spoke with us, Elder Hamula was in room, but then was called away to do something else. But basically what Elder Blanc explained was that in the process of looking of, you know, interviewing with, with bishops and members of the High council, there were two people who stood out. It was you and one other man. And both of you seemed capable of, of serving as Stake President. But there were also concerns, independent concerns, different concerns that we had about your, each of your family situation in serving. What they explained to me was the other one has a really large family, lots of kids, as if six isn't a lot, I guess, because I think he has 12. And their concern with me was primarily the matter of the, the business that I owned necessitating a lot of time and that maybe it wasn't in the organization of the business, wasn't in such a place where it would really be conducive and helpful for me to serve in the capacity as Stake president. And so that in the end, as they considered the two of us, they opted to go with the other one. But, but don't be, don't be, don't let this throw you, Bishop Shakespear. You have, the church has a great need for you. Right. You have a lot of things that the church needs you to do. So don't let this throw you off the course you're pursuing. Right. I share this. And so that was the end of the conversation. After that regular general meeting that took place Sunday morning, I took my oldest son to, you know, just shake Elder Hamula's hand and we visited shortly. And Elder Hamila said to my son, you know, your dad is a great man. He said, and, and he, and, and then he said to me, close to me, he didn't say this to my son, but he said, keep your nose clean, Bishop Shakespear, because there's a lot that the Lord needs you to do. And I said, okay, I share this all because I think it's important.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] I just have to, I just have to note Elder Hamila ends up getting excommunicated for what most people acknowledge is an adulterous affair. And he's one of the first high ranking general authorities to be publicly excommunicated.

Matthew Shakespear [01:35:58] Yeah. In a long time. Right. Long, long time.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] And he was like ahead of the correlation committee. So he, he kind of knows where the bodies are buried. And I think he's either worked his way back into the church or is working his way back in the church. I don't get the sense there was ever a faith crisis.

Matthew Shakespear [01:36:12] Yeah, but. Right.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] He plays into Grant Palmer's story, he plays into, you know, other stories. I've talked about a general authority who loses his faith, you know, in the past few years. An emeritus general authority. That was Grant Palmer's mission. President Busha. Elder Busha.

Matthew Shakespear [01:36:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:36] Busha was. Was mission president to Hamila. They're all kind of interconnected, right? Graham Palmer, Busha, Hamila. But anyway, these stories all interconnect.

Matthew Shakespear [01:36:50] Isn't that really interesting? It really is. And I guess the. Well, before I explain why I wanted to share that is one other thing. At the end of that. That meeting, the morning, the Sunday morning, they say to my wife and I, and this may go without saying, Sister and Bishop Shakespear, but you cannot speak of this to anyone ever. You cannot share what has happened over the last 12 hours with anyone. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] What's that about?

Matthew Shakespear [01:37:36] Well, and this is why I share it. Because, I mean. Sorry, Elder Blount. Sorry, Elder. Actually, I'm not sorry. I share it because it's really important to me, not because my ego needs to be stake president or I need people to know that I was almost called. I don't care anymore.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Or that you were offended or that

Matthew Shakespear [01:37:59] I was offended because I continued to serve as a bishop and did great things after. Okay, it's not about that, but what it is about is actually sharing a real understanding of what the process of selecting a leader really entails. And it's not as. It's not a beam of light that comes from heaven. And that's okay. It can be miraculous if it is nothing but being pragmatic and then seeking to know if it's good enough, but

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:38:34] the culture is saturated with that dishonesty. I just think, again, it's sad and it's tragic because it's going to be its ultimate downfall, but the. The church's culture is saturated in dishonesty and secrecy. And don't share this, because of course it's gonna make us look bad. Well, at least it shouldn't, because it's what's real, and it shouldn't. But it only does make it look bad because of the culture of these unrealistic expectations, these, you know, the mythology, the fallacies of. Of the divine nature of everything, and, you know, the shame and the pain that we want to keep a secret. That's why it looks bad. It shouldn't look bad. This is the normal functioning of the way things operate in the universe, and

John Dehlin [01:39:31] it shouldn't be hid from the memories.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:39:33] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:39:34] You sense they were saying, don't talk about it because why?

Matthew Shakespear [01:39:38] Well, it undermines, I'm sure that they felt like it would undermine the perceived spiritual guidance that they received in calling the new stake president. It could potentially undermine his feeling of being called by God if he knew. And to this day, actually, I don't know if I run across the path of the current stake president. It is a question that I want to ask him. Do you know what my day was like the day that you were called? Are you aware at all or did they not tell you. Out of a desire to not make you feel less capable or less called by God? If this were known, would that make you feel undermined or less anointed, if you will? It's, you know, to let that out and let it be public is not the standard procedure of the church. Because what it does is it undermines the idea of divine leader, divinely led decisions. It takes away from the mystique. Absolutely. And, and it, and it turns it into something that is actually more real. I mean, it's pragmatic to, to look at someone who you're asking to basically be an executive for an area, you definitely better be pragmatic in some level or it might be even more hurtful. Right. But can't we just call that what it is?

Grappling With Church Deception and Truth Claims

John Dehlin [01:41:43] I don't want to say it's triggering for me, but what this brings up for me is if you look at Joseph Smith, Forgive me, I'm just going to share my reflections for a second. If you think about Joseph Smith's history, before he was prophet, he was a treasure digger. And what I know he learned as a treasure digger is I can make people think I have special powers when I really don't. Because what you see is that when Joseph Smith led people on these treasure digs, claiming to see magical things in the ground with the stone and a hat, that he later admits he never had that power. But even when he took people to the point of digging the treasure and oh, I see the treasure underground, let's dig. And then right as they're supposed to get to it, he's like, oh, the angel took it away. And everybody leaves and goes home, they continue believing that he had special power. Even when he acknowledges to his father in law is a kale that he never had power at all. But what he takes from that whole experience is I know how to make people think I have special power when I don't. And that becomes a real. Then when he claims to get the plates and he claims to talk to Moroni and he claims to have created the book of Mormon, you know, as inspired scripture, when now we know he probably didn't ever use the plates. Probably didn't ever have the plates again. It's creating the impression of power that you don't have. That is what every. I don't want to say cult leader because I don't want to ever turn people off by calling church a cult. But like Jim Jones, David Koresh, like pick your. Pick your cult leader. That's what they had the ability to do is to make. And I know orthodox Mormons don't believe David Koresh or Warren Jeffs or Jim Jones had power of God, but they sure were able to convince their followers that they did have the power of God. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. It's like the wizard and the curtain.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:43:50] It's smoke and mirror.

John Dehlin [01:43:52] It's. There's a wizard beyond the curtains. But you want them looking at the projection of this powerful Oz figure. You don't want toto snooping around, pulling back the curtain, showing, you know, Dorothy and the lion and the tin man and the scarecrow, that it's really just this old dude pulling levers. Can't have that. So you gotta maintain the member perception.

Matthew Shakespear [01:44:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] That there's more divinity, more mysticism, more power than there really is.

Matthew Shakespear [01:44:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:26] And that's. That is. That is the source of the power of a lot of Mormonism.

Matthew Shakespear [01:44:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] And I hate to say it, but the deception that, you know, that these leaders are special witnesses of Christ, that they speak to God, that they have that backbone to God, that's the juice that it all runs on.

Matthew Shakespear [01:44:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] Right. And if, and if. And if people were to pull back the covers, pull back the curtains, see how the sausage is really made, will they be as devoted? Will they pay 10%? Will they go on that two year mission? Will they obey, pay, pray and obey for decades of their life? No, they probably won't. So don't tell, you know, brother Bishop Shakespear and wife of bishop, don't tell anyone what, what you just saw, that's gotta be kept secret.

Matthew Shakespear [01:45:18] Mm. So do I write?

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Am I projecting?

Matthew Shakespear [01:45:23] No, no, I, I agree with you. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:45:26] I guess it just makes me so. Those are the things that make me angry. I'm having a hard time feeling angry right now, but typically that would just ignite the flames of anger in me because we're being robbed and we're robbing children of the opportunity to see the real fascinating, wonderful, magnificent things about life. It is magical. The mechanical way that things work is magical. It is magical to just say that, you know the truth. The truth is possibly. I mean, you can spin the wheel and we can get 20 different truths from this one story. Possibly. But one of the truths could be. We had to take a look at this in a practical way. And just the fact that you were in Moses Lake, why didn't. You couldn't clear your calendar for one day. That's how insanely busy you are with just six kids. Like, you couldn't. So that helped us make our decision. That was pretty much the deal maker for us was this very practical reality that, you know, you were just here and now you're there and you're going to be like, whoo, we know we better go with this other one. And that's just the way it is. What's wrong with that truth? What's wrong with the fact that the universe works in these magnificent ways with rain and weather and wind and storms, and we don't have Santa Claus and we don't have some divine babysitter that's going to reach down and take care of us if we pray to it just right? What's wrong with those truths? Why is that not okay? Why do we continue to perpetuate these myths and dumb ourselves down and rob ourselves of what really is magical in the world? Why? Why do we do it? Why do we keep doing it?

John Dehlin [01:47:09] Yeah, but also is deception, okay? And there's this whole idea of lying for the Lord and the church. If the church has any history that's consistent and clear, from Joseph Smith lying about polygamy to Brigham Young and the early polygamous prophets lying about their own practice of polygamy, going to England, converting people to Mormonism, denying the practice of polygamy as polygamous, sending them all back, whether it's the Post manifesto polygamy, you know, in the 1890s and beyond, telling the US government that we weren't practicing polygamy while we were sending people to Cardston, Alberta and Mexico to keep the practice and secretly performing the polygamous marriages to the, you know, to the hiding about the problems of the Book of Abraham to the hiding of the problems about the Book of Mormon, to B H Roberts and sending him on a mission and getting him out of town when he finds out all the problems of the Book of Mormon, to the church history problems in the 50s and 60s, to Fawn Brody to the Leonard Arrington like in the Gospel, the September Six and the Gospel Topics essays. It's just like 200 years hiding and lying to the world and to the membership. And that's not all Mormonism is.

Matthew Shakespear [01:48:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] It's also helping people and helping the, helping the lost 30 year old single mom and helping the young kid growing up in a rural town. And it's this, it's this difficult intermingling of beauty and lies. And it's both. It's both beauty and lies.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:48:46] It doesn't have to be, though. I mean, yes, both and or neither normal.

Matthew Shakespear [01:48:50] No.

John Dehlin [01:48:51] Aren't the lies part of the magic? Like perpetuating the magic is this is the sauce and the juice that makes people so committed and passionate. If it's just this. I hear what you're saying. Okay, listen, Elizabeth, I hear what you're saying, that it doesn't have to be, but you try and get people to pay 10% of their income for their lives, you try and get people, take your secular version of beauty and you try and create a million, multi million person organization that lasts 200 years.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:49:22] Maybe we don't need that. Well, maybe that's the whole part of the paradigm. We don't need 10% of everybody's income because maybe somebody will give 90% and somebody else will give because they're so lit up and enamored by this fantastic thing that doesn't need lies and doesn't need spin because the truth is more beautiful than any made up story we can come up with.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] What was there for you and your life was not going so well? What was there for your parents? Like, all I'm saying is it's, it's complex because what if for the first half of life, people. You know, I talked about this with Janice Spangler recently. What if people need an. Or. What if people benefit from an orthodox religious system in their first half of life? What if that gets them out of trouble? What if this keeps them moral, keeps them from unwed pregnancies, keeps them from STIs, keeps them from hurting themselves, gets them to adulthood in the most, with the most education, with the least amount of risk, with the best socioeconomic status. What if that is what creates a Matthew Shakespear? And what if that's a really good thing? And what if that creates a ward that can be there for you, Elizabeth, when you're really needing it and can help pull you out of a really hard, difficult, traumatic childhood? What if it is the perception of magic and honestly, the deceptions that create the perception of things being more magical than they are. What if that's. What, what, what's that? What if that's part of the formula that increases the power, that allows the church to be there for so many people. And then if people are ready for their second half of life, they can have their great awakening, they can have their faith crisis and they can choose to leave it. But, but I've tried to create secular organizations and it's, and it's, it's, it's hard to get people to even show up.

Matthew Shakespear [01:51:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:17] To a, to a meeting, let alone donate to it, let alone give a commitment over time. I'm just saying you can talk to me and I'm not trying to mansplain you or be disrespectful. I've been thinking about this stuff for 20 years and all I'm saying is it's hard to create an organization that lasts over time, that people are committed to. And I really believe that part of the secret sauce of Mormonism is the magical view born out of the deception that's part of the secret formula. And tell me I'm wrong. I don't mean to be.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:51:54] Well, I'm not disagreeing with you. I believe that it is probably part of the formula. But in this universe right now, I mean, if you know anything about science, if you've ever dabbled in physics and quantum physics especially, there's so much more than what we are. What we're aware of is an embarrassment. And so yeah, that is part of it. But we keep beating our heads against this same four walls when there's so much beyond the four walls. Why do we need an organization? Why do we need, you know, why do we need. It's only because we don't, we need a new language. I mean, I was just telling Matthew, part of our problem is somebody needs to come up with a new language. This is old like, and I don't just mean in English, I mean something totally different because even space and time is soon going to become obsolete. And what I mean by that are our concepts of space and time. I mean, some of the foremost scientists out there are talking about the fact that. Whoa. We're understanding now that part of our problem is we keep trying to fit it into this space time continuum. It's so much bigger than that. I would have found another way. I would have found. Absolutely. I know that. I take that back. I do not know that I feel in my bones, in my 48 year old bones based on. Or I would have died, but I don't even think death is the end of this. So something else is going to happen. Something else. John Something else, something else, something else. It's going to happen. Whether you're coming up with new fandangled ways to try to get people to come together in an organization and donate their money. There are other people that are so far outside of that whole paradigm that other things are happening. It's happening in other ways. We don't need these same things the same way. We've got to think outside of. Of that box, outside of, you know, people are going to be people. And yes, we're complex, but we certainly don't need to keep trying to reinvent the same wheel.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] The only part I'm trying to make is, my guess is you both are going to say you're a lot happier now than you were five years ago in your lives, maybe. And it was Mormonism that got you together, and it was Mormonism that got you to where you are now. And it's a big. It's beautiful and it's fraught, it's powerful and it's tragic, and it's really complex.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:54:26] I certainly wouldn't say that because. But I listened to conversations by David Deutsch and Max Tegmark, who are talking about parallel universes and infinite possibilities. And no, I'm not necessarily happier than I was five years ago. And I certainly don't attribute it to Mormonism. And if this thing hadn't happened, something else would have happened. You know, we like to speculate, and we have all kinds of fun talking about, you know, what if this hadn't happened? What if that hadn't happened? What if this. Would we be together? Would we not? You know, there were times where we were able to, like, invent a narrative that included, well, no matter what, we were going to come together. It was part of. It was part of our fate or our destiny. And then 20 minutes later, we're like, that's a joke. You know, we don't know. We don't know. I don't know. You don't know? We don't know. Can we stop pretending? We know. Are we ever going to stop pretending?

John Dehlin [01:55:22] What do you know?

Matthew Shakespear [01:55:24] Well, you know, this is. It's actually something that we've. We've.

John Dehlin [01:55:28] I guess.

Matthew Shakespear [01:55:29] I don't know. We've. We've hit this back and forth. We really do. And it's enjoyable to really kind of just dissect it in different ways. I mean, in many respects, it's reminiscent of the really fun debates between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. You know, Jordan Peterson is of the mind that the myths are an integral part of our Psyche and us knowing there's real danger in the material world that can hurt us. And if we act outside of the bounds, then we are putting ourselves at risk. And it's those myths. It's that for him, it's the. That's the a priori foundation are the myths which would include, you know, I mean, the magic. Right. Sam Harris is like, why? Why do we need to have those? What's. What are they serving us now? I mean, he can concede the fact that early man needed myth to explain something that he had no way of measuring before, but we have that now. And so is it time to move on to something that is.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:56:49] Something that makes more sense? It's time to grow up and move on.

Matthew Shakespear [01:56:53] But. But, yeah, I mean, I do agree it is. There is power that comes from that magic. Right. And it certainly was a big part of my foundation, and certainly glad that I'm not one that has to make a decision or try and navigate this from a leadership standpoint of the church. Wow. I don't envy that. But as we get a little bit further in our story, we've got a really poignant example of how we can tell ourselves a story that deception might be better. But what I. What I think we did as we navigated that was that we realized if we were to go forward with that plan, we would be doing the same thing that the church, that the church does, and we don't want to do that anymore. And it's hard. I mean, really hard. Okay. And as far as happiness goes, how I feel, how happy I feel now versus before. I'm not gonna lie and say that my life is so much better now. I mean, I guess I would say to someone who wonders that question. Sapiens is one of the final chapters. Talks about happiness. Go read it. Our level of happiness generally falls in a range that kind of sits with us as our personality and psyche. And whether we get a million dollars tomorrow or yesterday or we're destitute and poor, our level of happiness is probably going to fall in that range either way. Okay, so am I happy where I am in life? Yes. Am I happier just because I jettisoned a set of beliefs and myths? I don't know. I'm probably within that same range that I was before.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:59:01] I think there are days, right? It all depends.

Matthew Shakespear [01:59:02] Yeah, it really does.

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:59:03] Somebody from the outside is like, dude, you're like, you seem so much happier. Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [01:59:08] My employees sometimes will remark, they're like, wow, last couple years, Matt, you're so much happier than you Used to be. I was like, really?

Elizabeth Shakespear [01:59:18] So there's the wrong framework again. Back to. And we need a new language. Like, we're obsessed with happiness, and it's sick. It's contributing to our sickness. It's the sickness of the soul and the mind that as we are constantly seeking and endeavoring to be happy, it makes us miserable. And instead of the pursuit of happiness, if we could just a simple little tweak where we're instead focused on diminishing suffering, you know, or at least seeing suffering for what it really is in the first place. Right. Like, really being able to acknowledge it and let go of this. This sick, distorted obsession of reality by grasping at happiness constantly. Are you happy? Are you happy yet? Are you happy? Does this make you happy? Do you feel good? Or is it pleasure? Pleasure? Pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:04] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:00:05] Makes pain all that much worse.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] Well, I didn't mean to derail us. Oh, I was just trying to sort of muse on this idea of deception. I'm sure that, first of all, church leaders don't think they're being deceitful. They just think they're being discreet.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:19] But.

John Dehlin [02:00:19] But let's just say they are being deceitful or deceptive.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:24] I was just kind of trying to explore the idea of it. Is the. Does the benefit outweigh the cost? Is there a aggregate good that somehow justifies the deception? And we'll come back.

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:36] I mean, I don't. I mean, it was great. I. I don't think it was being derailed. I think. Yeah, absolutely. It's the point of my story. And it's really important for all human beings to explore that idea. It's not a derailment, I don't think.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] But you felt like they were being deceptive by telling you not to tell anyone. Are you wondering?

Matthew Shakespear [02:00:54] Well, yeah. I mean, it is a motivation to keep. If you want to go back to the wizard of Oz, it's to keep the curtain pulled closed. Right. And I guess all I would really hope is that it's okay. I would hope that it's okay just to be real about that, to be real about the process. It still is miraculous in a different way, but it's still miraculous that they could come into a town where they know hardly anyone with just a few sheets of paper and decide who is going to be the next executive. Right. I mean, seems pretty amazing to me, but we don't need it to be cloaked in.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [02:01:43] Industry.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [02:01:45] It's my take anyway.

John Dehlin [02:01:47] Sure. All right, so where does the story.

Difficult Experiences and Burdens of Being Bishop

Matthew Shakespear [02:01:52] Well, so. So after that, I Just jump into just being the best bishop I can be in. In the Natchez ward. Right. And. And what. What really happens from that point forward is really, this is where kind of more of a feminist awakening or a slant toward realizing how.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] How.

Matthew Shakespear [02:02:19] How maybe the system is unjust toward women. Because what really begins to happen now. So now I've been a bishop a year and a half, right? And at that point, as I look at the. The situation and look back is at that point, primarily sisters in the ward have now been, I guess, watching and observing me. We hadn't lived in the ward for that long prior, but have realized that maybe this person, maybe this man might be able to understand where I'm coming from and might be able to help me with something I'm really in need of. And at some point, I can't remember exactly when it happened, but just to like, I guess put an exclamation point on this fact is that one of my counselors at one point just kind of in passing said something. What is the deal? Why is it that it's always sisters that are coming to you? I think because they felt like I cared.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:03:41] Can I tell you why? Sure. I mean, I have a lot of trauma, sexual trauma, physical abuse trauma, and from men. And for me to be able to feel comfortable, it was a very, very unique and rare and special thing that I saw in him right away. And the other important thing was, for the record, had he ever given me a vibe that he had any attraction toward me, that would have been so unsettling for me, that I would not have been able to be vulnerable and feel safe and learn the things that I learned from first and foremost, and then secondarily, to be able to experience the healing that I was able to experience with him. And it was interesting because just outside of myself, I could step outside of myself and be, like, observant of how other people seem to be around him as well. And my analytical mind would analyze, you know, what is. What is this? What. What. What's his history? What's his background? What. How does he relate with other men? Like, how is this. And I don't really know because I only knew him in this position. But just to speak to that from my perspective, and then when I was sharing with another sister, when I did start to feel so there. There was something that happened, and I noticed it immediately, and I shared it with the Relief Size Society president. I was worried because I felt a twinge of attraction toward him, and it scared me. And she assuaged my Worries and concern and basically was like, yeah, I know, it'd be nice if he looked more like brother, so and so or something. It would make it easier. Like every time I have to, you know, go in there, you just take a breath and like. And I guess I share that too because, like, it's just like being an attractive woman in the world, you can't take for granted and pretend you're oblivious to the fact that you experience certain privileges in the world. It would also be, as, you know, ignorant to pretend that this good looking man doesn't also have some appeal. And then just being an adult and being honest about it, again, that was my attempt to be honest and just be forthright, like, okay, and now that this is out and it's over and the air is cleared, so I felt safe. And I know that other women, because I spoke with them, felt safe with you. They felt you were trustworthy because you weren't giving off the slightest vibe of lasciviousness that so many men just give off, you know?

Matthew Shakespear [02:06:48] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:06:49] And how you were able to do that as an attractive man, it was, it was a mystery. So myself and a sister just agreed to that. It was, it was a blessing, it was a gift that God blessed you with. And that was the story, that was the narrative we chose to agree upon. Yeah, there you go.

Matthew Shakespear [02:07:12] So that's worth. Right. And, and that's, I think primarily maybe what became a focus, if you want to say that it just. Not because it was something that was intended, not because it was something that I was seeking to do, but because I realized it was a need that people, particularly sisters, had, that they needed to be supported, that they needed to feel like someone was trying to understand their situation.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] I almost want to say that you were tapping into the idea that in a patriarchy, the life of a woman can be super hard. And is it possible that part of the reason a lot of women were coming to you is because there are a lot of women in pain? Because the church can be really hard for women. Is that possible?

Matthew Shakespear [02:08:08] Absolutely.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:08:09] First and foremost.

Matthew Shakespear [02:08:11] Definitely. Definitely. So. And you know, I remember it was probably about that time. I remember, in a word, council,

John Dehlin [02:08:24] the,

Matthew Shakespear [02:08:24] the Relief Society president and the primary president who were female, ask the question of me, like, how do we know what we can do in our organization? Like, what are the parameters, basically, that we are allowed to operate within? And by then I had come to the, like to. To really feeling like my answer to them was, you do whatever you feel is right. That's what you can do. I'm not going to set any parameters whatsoever for you. Just do what you think is right. Organize whatever activities you feel are good. Yeah, we are limited in the budget, but you have your budget. You know what that is. And the only thing I need to know is what you're doing. Just so I know, just so I know when the activity is, or so I can announce it. Or so you are, you are, your authority for your organization. Just let me know what you're doing. And so that was my approach. You know, there were some really, really difficult matters of, of counseling with sisters in particular, who had experienced some very difficult things that I had no training for. And really, you know, from, from now and reflecting on this, just really had no business in thinking I would be able to help now. Really, in the end, it was a pretty miraculous thing and I did help. And for those lives, it was amazing. The healing journey for them was very difficult. And it wasn't just a blessing, a one time laying on of hands and declaring that healing had taken place. But it was long and arduous work, especially for them. But for me as well, And really, in reflection, I had no business even trying. I, I mean, I did it because I felt like it was the right thing to do for them, but healing. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:11:42] I sense that, you know, you really want to make sure you don't violate the confidentiality of any correct member. So let me take it out of that context and ask you a question from a different angle.

Matthew Shakespear [02:11:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:53] What are the types of issues that a bishop might be confronted with? And you can include lots of things, not just specific to these cases that they're really ill equipped to handle, not trained to handle. And even though they can make a positive difference, as it sounds like you did, they could also make a huge mess of things if they become overconfident and kind of go out of their lane and try and play marriage therapist or marriage counselor or trauma therapist, or trauma counselor or sex therapist or sex counsel. Just give our listeners.

Matthew Shakespear [02:12:29] Yeah, because I mean, this can be, this could be true for, I mean, any bishop in any ward. Right. So to take it out of the personal context and open it up into the general context, certainly having, you know, interacted with other bishops as well. So, you know, it would not be uncommon for a bishop to encounter issues of sexual abuse, that of children and that of adults, marital rape, Issues of child abuse, issues of. Yeah, I mean, marriage counseling, trauma counselor, You know that.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] I mean, emotional, physical, verbal abuse.

Matthew Shakespear [02:13:22] Absolutely. All of the above. Yes, for sure. And so that is the LGBT issues. Lgbt. Although for me personally, I'll speak. I didn't really encounter that bishops do, but bishops do, absolutely. Many, many gay kid.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] What do I do? How do we help them? Or I'm bishop, I'm gay, help me.

Matthew Shakespear [02:13:43] Right. Or my child is, and he wants me to come to his wedding. What should I do?

John Dehlin [02:13:49] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [02:13:50] I mean, that's, those are things that a bishop would encounter.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:13:56] So.

Matthew Shakespear [02:13:58] And certainly I will give credit to the fact that the church has tried to, to train out the desire from their leaders to jump into that river and swim. Okay. They have made steps to say, bishops, you are not mental health professionals, so don't jump into that water and swim.

John Dehlin [02:14:32] That's new. And we've had.

Matthew Shakespear [02:14:33] It is new.

John Dehlin [02:14:34] Shame them into taking that.

Matthew Shakespear [02:14:36] I agree with you.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] It is new because go, go back 10 or 20 years, bishops so tell people all sorts of things that they have.

Matthew Shakespear [02:14:45] For sure. I, I agree with you. And it is new things like don't

John Dehlin [02:14:50] report that sexual abuse. Stay together in your marriage, even if he's abusive. You know, go to reparative therapy. You can ungate yourself if you go to the right training. Excuse me, like, give up the kid for adoption. Don't give up the kid for adoption.

Matthew Shakespear [02:15:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:04] There's no such thing as marital rape. Hey, wife, you need to give it up for your husband sexually so that, so that he'll stay with you. Like, there's the, the examples of, of horrible, damaging advice that bishops have given. Don't report the sexual abuse to the police. You know, the, the examples over the decades and, you know, centuries of Mormonism for sure, are egregious. And there's been good bishops doing good things, but like, again, horrible and good all in her interwoven.

Matthew Shakespear [02:15:37] Yeah, but agreed. And, and, but what's, what's being asked of an ecclesiastical leader, a bishop, even though the, the church has, has made steps to try and keep them out of that there even still exists a culture within the membership at large that my bishop is inspired and likely can help me with that. Right.

John Dehlin [02:16:04] So, and then if a bishop says something, it's God. It's basically God saying.

Matthew Shakespear [02:16:08] Correct. Right? Yeah. So, so we still have that magical component, the spiritual, quote unquote, spiritual component that exists. And I think that there are times it's worked, meaning, like it's, it's provided benefit for the person, and there are times when it's really damaging. And you're also asking men and women if they say in the case of Relief Society president, but you're asking these leaders to. Push into an arena that they are not prepared for either, meaning for their own safety and health. I mean, you know this. I know for myself that I experienced really an, A, an attack on my masculinity and my comfort of being a man. Because of issues that came to me while I was serving as a bishop. And I would presume, I've never been to graduate school to become a counselor or a psychologist, but I would presume in the courses, in the coursework would be a course that would help a counselor in setting boundaries and in self care. That was not part of my understanding or training to be a bishop. And it's something that I'm aware of that I am continuing to work through the, what you could call trauma or damage that took place in my psyche in dealing with some of those issues.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] How did it, how do those things damage you? Without giving details that would. Well, I mean, how is it damaging to a bishop?

Matthew Shakespear [02:18:52] Well, this also speaks to my predisposition and my personality to take on responsibility for things that are not mine. I mean, it was almost at times like I felt, in order for this person to feel better, to feel understood, to feel healed, or at least to be on the path of healing, that I needed to take personal responsibility for something that I wasn't even in the state for. And that's partly a personality thing. I mean, I realize that there are bishops who maybe that would come in one ear and out the other and roll off. I mean, so, so that's personality driven in some respects. I mean, it's also something that I'm working with too, right. In, in counseling and so forth. That, that's my own personality failings in a way. Right. To take on responsibility for things that are not mine. But, but it happens. Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] And you didn't ask to be a bishop. You got called. Right. And you weren't trained. Just tell us how it hurts you to carry those loads.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:20:08] You also didn't ask to be a sensitive person.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Right. But how does it hurt you? How did those things, how does it affect you as a bishop to be carrying things you weren't necessarily trained or equipped to carry? How did that affect you? Just so people know.

Matthew Shakespear [02:20:26] Yeah. So I would like you to chime in too, but just to quickly share, you know, really it comes down to, I mean, for me it's, it's depression. Right. It's like it's also just an attack on. I mean, for me, I attack myself and my, my, I just, I kind of shut down. I kind of close off. I kind of Try and push those harmful feelings down and it really manifests in, you know, I guess you could say, you know, depression.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] As a bishop. You were feeling depression.

Matthew Shakespear [02:21:11] Yeah. Although I wouldn't have recognized it at the time. But. Elizabeth, why don't you share your perspective on the.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:21:16] Well, I mean, for one thing, what he's describing that's clear to me is that there's this. He's taken on the shame of all sexual predators. He's taken on, you know, through taking responsibility, the shame of rapists, of sexual deviants. And there's a distortion also that took place that, you know, he grew up very sheltered, very Mormon, and things that might actually even be normal sex was considered. Well, I feel like I have to choose my words really carefully here because abuse is abuse and we all should have that internal, you know, where we know we can differentiate between abuse. But what I'm trying to say is that overall, the over. The heavy burden that has weighed down on Matthew is that, you know, he's internalizing the shame of all men who have hurt, in particular the women who were coming to him and sharing their stories. So it's just like this feeling of I'm a disgusting predator just because I'm a man.

Matthew Shakespear [02:22:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [02:22:40] So I.

John Dehlin [02:22:42] And I just have to say, as someone who's been through six years of a PhD program in clinical and counseling psychology, I know exactly the training that I received to teach me boundaries, to teach me the ethics of counseling.

Matthew Shakespear [02:22:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] To teach me to differentiate between myself and the client, to. To get training on how to deal with the excessive emotional load.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] And it's six years of intense 80 hour a week training.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:12] Frankly.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:12] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:13] And they just throw you in as a bishop and say, good luck.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:16] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:23:17] And you're supported through that training.

John Dehlin [02:23:19] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:23:19] The whole time you're supported with multiple

John Dehlin [02:23:21] counseling and with multiple supervisors who are experts. Yeah. And. And it's still brutal.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:28] Still brutal.

John Dehlin [02:23:29] But I guess. I guess we haven't really thought about or coach on Mormon stories, the emotional and psychological toll that our bishops sometimes can carry.

Matthew Shakespear [02:23:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:40] And I have at least one other friend who ended up having severe depression and in this case an affair while he was in a leadership position. And it's almost identical. And I guess I'm just saying, I bet it's not just two. I bet this happens to a lot of Mormon leaders in one way.

Matthew Shakespear [02:24:07] I would think so. Yeah. Agreed. I don't think it's.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:24:11] They're not being supported because it's believed that you're divinely protected. That was my Perception, that's what I felt like I was seeing. And when I gave this sort of, I don't know, lesson, I guess to the bishops, it was about, you know, how, how to reach out for the help that you need. I mean, because what I was seeing is not only sleep deprived men, but men whose nutritional needs weren't being met. Men whose needs for time with their families, with their wives, with their children in deep and meaningful ways. Right. Not like a rushed. This is another thing that I check off my box, you know, but in real ways it was. There's so much dis. Ease that's going on and there's no outlet for it because it's all under this guise of this magical thinking that I'm going to be protected by the Holy Spirit. Or of course I'm not trained in this, but I don't need to be because the Holy Spirit's going to guide me and Heavenly Father is going to protect me.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] The mantle of the bishop, reward me

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:25:18] later for what I'm going through now.

Matthew Shakespear [02:25:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] And it's such a position of status. We're not, we're like as Mormons, we're primed to respect and honor bishops and we call them bishops for the rest of their lives.

Matthew Shakespear [02:25:32] Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] But we're not primed to feel a lot of empathy or sympathy for them because it's such a position of honor and respect. It's like, oh, well, you get all. You're in the elite. So like.

Matthew Shakespear [02:25:42] Yeah, I mean, yeah, sorry you have

John Dehlin [02:25:43] to deal with that, but I'm sure

Matthew Shakespear [02:25:44] you got lots of blessings coming your way, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And, and so as far as the. When, when I was serving as bishop, there was a period of time where I was asked to chair what is called the Bishop Welfare Council meeting, which usually takes place at least once a quarter. It's where the bishops and the stake get together to cover welfare issues. When I say welfare, that means like matters of like, you know, assistance typically that are given to. And the ideas behind. Behind it is that it allows bishops the opportunity to kind of counsel with one another about how the best ways to administer the program and, and help those who are in need, but also make sure that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:26:39] So the name is a misnomer.

Matthew Shakespear [02:26:40] So the name is welfare. But one time, and it was kind of, it was actually spurred by a question that Elizabeth had to me one day is, what are you doing? When we met together in the bishop's office? Was that what are you doing to help yourself Be well. And I thought, wow, what are the other bishops doing, too? So I invited her to come to that meeting. Bishop's welfare meeting that night was intended to be for the welfare of the bishops, Right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:27:21] Because I was like, oh, that's cool. You guys get together and you talk about your own good welfare and how you guys get to encourage each other to take care of yourselves and kind of brainstorm ways to be healthy. And he's like, no, that's not what we do. We talk about, like, man, this needs to change.

Matthew Shakespear [02:27:37] So that was out of the way box. It was an out of the box thing to actually have a sister show up to that meeting of men to speak to them about their welfare. But I think it was. It was important. I mean, it was.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:27:53] It was unusual. I was reluctant to share with Matthew much of my own history or anything, because it was evident to me that we have a real problem in the Church. You know, these guys are. I mean, he's beleaguered, certainly, even though he wouldn't admit it by my constant peppering him with questions about all this stuff, Right? Like, I'm looking into the church and trying to understand it, and he's like, I've never thought of that. I don't know the answer to that. So I'm like, I don't know. I guess part of my narrative is that I sometimes feel responsible for, like, your own faith crisis in a way, because I keep, like, coming to you, hammering you with, wait, you're not looking at this the right way. How come you haven't. How come you're not questioning this? Why don't you know? Like, what do you mean? You don't know this? And. And so then there's that part of it, and then the other part is my own trauma. I could see what he was going through. I'm, like, reluctant to share any of my own, you know, history as I'm trying to reconcile, am I good enough to go into this temple? Right. Why don't. This poor guy lived such a sheltered life. I'm scared to tell him anything because he's already. I know he's being. I don't want to say burdens, because. But that's the truth. And the truth is inconvenient, and the truth is difficult, and nobody wants to hear it, but the truth is he was very burdened by so many people's problems and issues. And, you know, I would have always be like, okay, what have you done for yourself today? Like, how have you. Have you gone for a run? Have you Eaten a healthy meal? Have you like, taken some time to just breathe, pray, whatever it is, but without

John Dehlin [02:29:42] what I'm just going to say as I'm hearing you talk about that. Like, if I'm thinking about your average, at least orthodox Mormon marriage, you've got multiple kids, your own career, your wife is trying to just survive in the home.

Matthew Shakespear [02:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:57] Then you've got the callings on top of that. I can't even imagine what it'd be like to be bishop. But it's just stiff upper lip. You do it where it's hard for all of us.

Matthew Shakespear [02:30:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] So the type of nurturing that I'm hearing, you offering to, to Bishop Shakespear, where you're like, hey, what about self care? How are you doing? Are you okay? It is possible that there are a lot of Mormon, orthodox Mormon wives who aren't even interested or aware or it doesn't even occur to them to offer that type of nurturing because it's their, their lives are.

Matthew Shakespear [02:30:33] Oh, they're, they're, they're just as exhausted. I mean, that's. Yeah, yeah. So let's be real. It's not that. Yeah, they've got a lot going on

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:30:43] too, and I can see that too.

John Dehlin [02:30:46] But this scenario sounds like a bit of a. It sounds a bit not dangerous, but like a dry, dry wood and you

Matthew Shakespear [02:30:53] can call it dangerous Johnson.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:30:55] I mean I was very aware. I'm just remembering. I'll give an example of one thing. I brought him an. Yeah, these are hard things to talk about, but so I brought him an ice pack like. And I think I actually gave it to your ex wife. Or maybe I gave it. Anyway, there was a lot of crossover and friendship and employment and other things. But I remember feel I was aware. Like one thing I am is aware usually of most things. And I can be hyper aware of people's feelings because I did not want to step on anybody's toes. But I'm also. This is my lifestyle. I've actually quit teaching now because that was sucking the life out of me. It was killing me. It was like I cannot put work down at the end of the day. Every child haunts me at night. I know what's going on in their home. I know I can't. It was way too much for me at that time in my life. So what am I gonna do to take care of myself? I'm gonna go into yoga and meditation. The things that I can use to make myself feel well and help other people with these things. That was my life's purpose and goal. And so I could freely share this. But I was very keenly aware of. In the church, I can't just go talk. It was my nature to talk to people's husbands. Like, I'm picking up that this is not normal. Like, they're not okay with that.

John Dehlin [02:32:15] Or a single mom to be talking to married men.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:32:18] Yeah. I mean, I was even, like, accused by. Someone is having an affair, basically with my brother. And I'm like, wait a minute. And. Yeah, because in the wife.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] No, tell me if I'm wrong. But in the church, single adult women are viewed as dangerous or a threat.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:32:34] I did not realize that.

Matthew Shakespear [02:32:35] Is that true?

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:32:36] It is true. Absolutely true.

Matthew Shakespear [02:32:38] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:32:38] You know, definitely. I had been considered lots of things before in my life, but never a dangerous threat. And I. Again, I mean, I think because of my own early trauma, I tended to be more timid. I was never that woman out there that was, you know, promiscuous and stealing people's boyfriends or like. So it was. It was like, wow, I'm suddenly sort of, like, aware of the fact that people are making. They're, They're. They're. They're skeptical, they're worried, they're concerned.

John Dehlin [02:33:10] Yeah. And I'm just going to. Just to loop it back. Like midlife, you know, the midlife developmental stage is famous for the midlife crisis.

Matthew Shakespear [02:33:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:22] So here you are, a Mormon bishop in the middle of your life, super busy career, kids, busy wife, and now neglecting your marriage and your family because now you've got the added responsibility of bishops.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:33:37] He did not neglect his marriage and his family potentially.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] Well, don't you know, he did say. He did say. He did say that he wasn't able. How could you not. How could you give to your marriage all that it needs if you're running from beehive moving to changing into your suit to go to this meeting, back to the beehive, and then it's 4am by the time you get home. How can you give your wife and kids everything that potentially they could compared to some other accusing you of neglect? But I'm just saying, midlife strains of life anyway. The extra burden of bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [02:34:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:15] And now you're counseling an attractive single woman who realizes how much stress you're under and starts showing you love and affection. How can that. I said earlier, it almost seems dangerous. And you guys are like, yeah, it kind of is.

Matthew Shakespear [02:34:29] So is it?

John Dehlin [02:34:30] And how and why.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:34:32] I guess I just want to speak to the neglect and that. So I. One of the ways that he helped me was to Let me earn money through the business there. So I was working on the premises, the property, the home, you know, and, you know, unless it was a facade, which I don't think it was because I've spoken with other people and knew, but this man never stopped. And he actually, now, this was my perspective and I shared it with him, but he spent more time with his kids than the average guy. Now I've been a nanny in Seattle for two very busy families. And then I was a teacher and I felt pretty, you know, and before that I'd worked in before and after school programs. What I'm saying is I'm pretty familiar with people's homes, like the average family's home life, whether it's in the big city or the small town. And from my perspective, what I could gauge over a couple years, period of time, he spent more time with his children than the average dad.

John Dehlin [02:35:34] That's fine.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:35:35] More time with his kids, more time.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] I totally believe you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:35:38] And that was just an observation that I made and I don't know, Matthew can speak to that.

John Dehlin [02:35:43] That's not in question that you were a bad dad.

Matthew Shakespear [02:35:45] No. And I, and I don't feel that way, but I understand what you're. What you're. I think if I understand you correct, is you're just saying that. But all of that together, all of that, the expected time with the kids, with my wife, with the calling, with the business, time of life, all of those things together, you put them in a blender and you press puree. It's dangerous. Yeah, yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] And, and you're sitting alone with a woman potentially at night, counseling her about her problems, sometimes talking about sexual worthiness or repentance or whatever, crossing boundaries that maybe you shouldn't be crossing and you're certainly not qualified to be talking about potentially. I don't know.

Matthew Shakespear [02:36:46] Yeah, I don't know either.

John Dehlin [02:36:47] But I do.

Matthew Shakespear [02:36:48] I mean, I did what I felt like I was inspired to do.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] Yeah, yeah, but. Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:36:53] I mean, I feel like them now. Again, I'm going to admit right out. Like we have our own biases and, you know, we distort things even unintentionally. So I'm probably distorting this. But my, my recollection is that we really did spend most of our time discussing church thing.

Matthew Shakespear [02:37:14] Absolutely.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:37:14] I was passionate and on fire, like I needed to know these things. And we had like really long discussions and I had hard questions and we would spend a long time trying.

Matthew Shakespear [02:37:27] Yeah, well. And I'm not questioning, so. Right, right. For sure. And during that time period. So we're talking like, so let's see, it would be like 20, 2016 through about 20, 2018. Right. That, that whole two years is kind of just a blur of a lot of work. Right. I work with members of the ward, work with the business, keeping up with the kids as best I can, trying to keep my relationship going. And, and I, and I tried to find innovative ways to get the time to, to do things. So like for example, like during that period of time, that little part time flying job would necessitate me leaving yakima at like 4am to drive to Moses Lake where the airplane was hangered to do a flight to Butte, Montana and back once a week. And I'm awake. At least I better be if I'm driving. Right. So why not use that time in an efficient way to talk with Elizabeth and help answer questions about gospel topics and that kind of stuff that she was doing.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:38:39] And I was willing to wake up.

Matthew Shakespear [02:38:41] And she was willing to wake up at 4aM

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:38:45] to try to get these things out. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think at some point it came up that you and your previous wife would sometimes have conversations while you traveled on the phone. I think too. And I remembered asking like, why don't you do that? Like why don't. I mean I, I did try and I, and I hope, I hope you can agree that this was true, was as wanting. Well, being for you, I genuinely wanted. I actually thought they had a good marriage. Like it seemed like a good marriage. So I would offer like, hey, I'll watch your kids while you guys go out and have a date night. I'll, you know, here's a gift certificate. Why don't you guys use this? I offered these things to her as well. I mean one time I was like, hey, you know, I've got this, I've got all these things dialed in for your kids fly down there. And he was in California working with the bees. You'll be there for Valentine's Day. Or maybe it was her birthday, I don't remember. But anyway, the priority and this happens, this is one of those horrible truths of the women in the church is they have all of these kids and, and that's their priority. It becomes their kids. And, and the truth is, is that you got to take care of your relationship with your husband. And it. I. And one of the things that stuck out to me was seeing how the, the husband and the wife would be seated apart and all the kids in between them. Wait, wait, wait, wait, you guys need to be like, keeping like, I don't know. I haven't had six kids, but I can imagine how exhausting, you know, and how. And you got your hormonal ups and downs, all these things. I don't know where I'm going with this, except to say I have some empathy, some compassion, some as much insight as I could gain trying to glean, like, okay, part of what. All these things I'm noticing in this church, I was seeing dysfunction all over the place. I was quickly realizing I did not want to stay in this game. But before I go, can I help some people? You guys really need to work out these kinks that are just blaringly evidently wrong. And that just segues into the whole porn thing too. I just remember talking to you about, no wonder porn is such a huge problem. First of all, there's all this distortion of sex when you're young. And then you've got wives that are exhausted and men that have all these callings. And this is so. Such an easy transaction, you know, this is. Well, then fine, let's just call it what it is. This is an easy transaction. And this is just what happens until we can really get our act together and connect in a deep, meaningful way and reignite the passion. And instead of just making it worse by being like, no, you can't. I don't know. There's so many ways that you can see the solutions, but there's just no way to get from point A to point B where the solution is.

John Dehlin [02:41:49] I mean, what I'm hearing, Elizabeth, is that you reactivate, seeing if maybe you can find some value in the church. What you end up seeing is a lot of things that are really messed up.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:42:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:01] And then you, because you care about people, you're kind of engaging to see how you can maybe try and help some people.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:42:07] Where can I help? Where can I help?

John Dehlin [02:42:09] That's really interesting, right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:42:10] Yeah. I mean, I was bringing cause the truth, this.

John Dehlin [02:42:13] You probably had learned a lot of wisdom in your non blue blood life experiences.

Matthew Shakespear [02:42:18] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:42:19] You probably had some things. Of course, you're just a single mom who's been a divorced single mom. What do you have to offer?

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:42:27] I'm a nobody.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] Members of the church. However, you actually did have life experiences that could help and you were actually trying. And that plays into how this all shakes out.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:42:37] Totally. I was constantly trying to insert wisdom into. Into working with the young women that came from Hinduism or Buddhism or even Wiccan and paganism. Like there's wisdom out there. You guys like this what you're doing is not wisdom. Even that. You call this thing the word of wisdom is such an insult to the word I can't handle it.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] And Bishop Shakespear, you're probably thinking, who is this woman? Who is this woman?

Matthew Shakespear [02:43:02] Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I mean, like, well, okay, so you're

John Dehlin [02:43:08] trying to help her, but maybe. Maybe she's helping you.

Matthew Shakespear [02:43:10] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] How do you make sense of it?

Matthew Shakespear [02:43:12] Definitely. So, I mean, I feel like that was. It was a. It was a mutual. It was a relationship of mutual help. It really was.

Developing Emotional Intimacy and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:43:21] Really, what you're both doing over time is developing emotional intimacy. I'm just going to call it absolutely over time. As you're counseling, as bishop, you're counseling Elizabeth, you guys are developing emotional intimacy, definitely talking about stuff that many Mormon couples never end up talking about. But because you're in a setting, a counselor setting, where emotional intimacy develops, you guys are developing emotional intimacy for each other without that being. You don't even know what that is, let alone that being your intention.

Matthew Shakespear [02:43:48] Well, it wasn't the intention for sure.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:43:49] That wasn't like you realized it when it happened, though. I mean, we're both pretty smart people. I mean, I'm no genius, but it was when it became obvious. And I'll never forget the conversation where he's like, oh, I think I know what's happening. He's like, I think that because I'm a man who is finally, like, not making you feel preyed upon, you know, and. And I'm a man who's been safe for you, because when, just in alignment with my own integrity, I had to come forth to him and let him know when it was. It was doing a number on my mind. Like, I started having dreams about him, and I'm trying to, Like, I'm. Seriously. There's so much going on that I'm losing the wisdom I have gained over the years. And now it's getting mixed up with reading at that time, Joseph Smith's polygamy. And I'm identifying with this woman in the story, this Elizabeth Browning, I think. I don't know her name. Elizabeth. I pulled that one out of somewhere else. It was Elizabeth, though. Something. But it's so confusing. But I had to be true to myself and be like, okay, first it was the Relief Society president back then, and then it was no big deal, but now there's a new. There's something new happening. They're stirring, right? Is that what they called him in the. In the Giver? Anyway, something's happening. So I have to tell him. And he's like, this is why. So we're explaining it. We're trying to be rational adults. Like, oh, that's just because I'm a man in a power position and you're a female who's. It's okay. It's no big deal. So done. We put that on the back burner again. We were. We were adult about it. We were open, we were honest. And we're like, okay, cool, Safe. We're back at, you know, we're back in the safe zone again. Like, he's absolutely right. Like, I was just feeling those feelings because he's the first man that, you know, has let me fully divulge everything. He still accepts me, he still seems to respect me. He still seems to be interested in what's in my brain. And he's also helping me, you know, with all these other things that I'm trying to understand about the church. So there's benefit to this. We're going to continue.

Matthew Shakespear [02:45:55] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:45:58] So we did. And again, truly with integrity and truly, like, once again, like, at that point, that was so great, because if he had now, and this was another thing retrospectively, and I was journaling a lot, but if he had it all at that point, been like, oh, I feel the same. I have felt those same. Those same sort of confusing feelings. Thank you. I would have been like, fuck, I'm out of here. Like, I don't even know what I'm doing. The whole church, the whole thing. I'm just going to leave the town. But he truly had, like, real integrity. I mean, he really, truly respected me as a human being and wanted to. Like, you were committed in your life to everything you were committed to. You were committed to your wife, to your kids, to your calling, to your everything. He was this incredible person. And so I was like, he's an incredible person. That's. This is. That's. This is it. This is the box that we're in. And I'm going to continue figuring out if I want to be in this church or not, and then this relationship will be done. This connection that we have.

Matthew Shakespear [02:47:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:47:09] Obviously, that's not what happened, but that's because of the undoing that only crept in because of this is now my opinion. You can tell me if I'm wrong. The only reason we're sitting here today is because what. What happened is Matthew's testimony, his re. His. His commitment to the church, all those things started to crumble. Right? I don't know. It seems like, maybe around the same time as me. But we only know that now. At the time, you were not letting on to that. I have no idea.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] Let's talk about how Bishop Shakespear loses his testimony as bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [02:47:44] Yeah. So we can move into that sermon, I think. No, that was how Elizabeth Shakespear lost her testimony. So one brief mention, though. So I'm trying to think, was it fall of 2017, you went to the temple, or 18.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:48:04] No, it must have been 17. I don't know.

Matthew Shakespear [02:48:06] I think it was fall of 2017. You can look at a picture, see what the metadata on there says. But fall, I think it was fall of 2017, she went to the temple and was endowed. So that was like a step in her journey. And, you know, of course, meeting with her, she felt like she had a belief strong enough to go there and see more. I'm kind of throwing those into.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:48:36] Absolutely. I was fully in. It was.

Matthew Shakespear [02:48:39] Yeah. So. So then we go. Spring 2018, oldest daughter graduates from high

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:48:47] school,

Matthew Shakespear [02:48:49] and my wife and I take her on a trip, senior trip after high school to New York City. But just prior to that, I had been listening to a podcast series. It's called Leading lds. I'm trying to remember the. The name of the man who. But he had served as a bishop, and he put together lots of podcasts from different leaders and interviewed lots of people. Well, one of the people that he interviewed was. And Elizabeth introduced this name because she went searching for Buddhist Mormons. Just Google Thomas Wirthlin McConkey. His name comes up. Right. He did an interview on leading LDs about his book Understanding Mormon Faith Crisis. And I was like, wow, that's an interesting book. I bought it. So go on this senior trip with my daughter and wife to New York, and I read that book on the way out, way back, and it introduces. I'm like, this is kind of an intellectual awakening. So for me, I was like, wow, Stages of Faith and development. Whoa. It's like a whole new, like, partition in my brain opened. And so that reading that book, then I. Then I. Then I find Fowler Stages of Faith. Bill Real did an interview on the same podcast series, Leading lds, about Fowler Stages of Faith. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is so interesting.

John Dehlin [02:50:34] You're going down the rabbit hole.

Matthew Shakespear [02:50:36] I know, right Quick. Really quick. So, and I share these things with Elizabeth. I'm like, here, look at this link. Listen to this podcast. This is really interesting. And she's like, yeah, this is interesting. It's kind of a good subject for discussion.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:50:48] And he has started meditating, too. By the way, I really have to attribute some growth to that.

Matthew Shakespear [02:50:54] Yeah, for sure. So. Well, definitely your influence.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:50:58] Yes.

Matthew Shakespear [02:50:59] Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, you know, this idea's concept of mindfulness and meditation. I wanted to delve into that and see what that was all about. So that was. That was Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:51:10] I like to also think that that's why corridors in his mind were opening up in new ways. But that's just my spin.

Matthew Shakespear [02:51:17] Yeah. Right. After a long coincident to that. And this was tied with helping people. As bishop, I'm looking into psychology a little bit more. And I. And it was really based on the fact that my dad, at some point when we were visiting was like, I found this guy on the Internet, on YouTube. He's really pretty interesting. I kind of like his stuff. Jordan Peterson.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:51:43] Peterson.

Matthew Shakespear [02:51:44] So I look on audible because I drive so much. I struggle to read. I don't have the time to read. But, boy, I can listen to books quickly. I can knock through a book really fast. And Maps of Meaning. Jordan Peterson. I read that at the same time or right after I listened to Wrestling the Angel. Terrell Givens. And I. And I throw in Rough Stone Rolling Bushman and I go, oh, crap. We humans are nothing but meaning makers with the environment that we survive in. That's it. We make our meaning and decide our mythology and decide everything based on our environment. Where are we at?

John Dehlin [02:52:47] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [02:52:47] And what I realized with those three books at the same time, I'm going,

John Dehlin [02:52:51] what role did he play? I want to hear each role. The book. What does Rustone Rolling have to do with. Okay, what insight did you gain from Rough Stone Rolling as you're thinking about meaning making?

Matthew Shakespear [02:53:02] Yeah, well, it was. It was meaning making first.

John Dehlin [02:53:06] Okay. So the idea that we're meaning makers,

Matthew Shakespear [02:53:09] the idea that we're meaning makers in the way that we construct meaning in our lives, where that comes from and how that happens. And so then I get Wrestling the Angel where it's like, Mormonism is a religion without creed. Where. And he's talking about how, you know, how Joseph gathered so much from his environment. If, you know, that's kind of what I got from Wrestling the Angel of, like, inspired Syncretist. Yeah, exactly. So you got the Pratts and you got Martin Harris and you got just the whole concept of this divinely created land and all of that stuff in Wrestling the Angel. So it's a religion without creed, as Terrell Givens says, because Joseph wanted it to be open. He was just the sponge. Right. He's just soaking it all up. Soaking it all up and making meaning as he goes along.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:54:23] He's creating it. He's making it up and creating it.

Matthew Shakespear [02:54:29] And what Rough Stone Rolling did was just solidify that concept into concrete. I was like, oh, my God. Goodness. It wasn't. Because up to that point, I mean, I had the traditional kind of narrative going on of, like, this man opened up his mind and God poured it in. And now I'm seeing it came from all over. Okay, like, so that's like, what about Rough Stone Rolling?

John Dehlin [02:55:05] Give a couple examples.

Matthew Shakespear [02:55:06] So Rough Stone Rolling,

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:55:12] He was a storyteller. I don't know. That's something that jumps out.

Matthew Shakespear [02:55:15] Well, right. Storytelling. Right. So his. His, like.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:55:18] But.

Matthew Shakespear [02:55:18] But also, you know, you in Rough Stone Rolling, you delve into the. Into the book of Abraham and expressed in a way that was just enough off from the traditional narrative that I understood. That made me realize, wow, he gathered this differently, too. And, you know, I realized that his meaning about. Around the concept of polygamy, like, his making of meaning there, totally didn't fall within the. Within the confines as I understood it. Like, the fact that he was involved with Fanny Alger long before any official declaration or, hey, Emma, I'm doing this. This has been inspired.

John Dehlin [02:56:03] Like, it was not just that. It was before the. Before the polygamy, you know, section 132. Before.

Matthew Shakespear [02:56:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:56:10] Certainly for the ceiling power.

Matthew Shakespear [02:56:12] Way before the. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:56:14] The ceiling power, let alone the polygamy revelation.

Matthew Shakespear [02:56:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:56:17] He's having sex with Fanny in the barn. That's. That doesn't make sense. Yeah, you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:56:22] We realized that. Okay. I have to bring into all these things. Like, in fact, I didn't even even finish Rough Stone Rolling because I was so panicked and blown out of the water by the fact that, I mean, I was still personally. So I had come across the King Follett sermon and was like, whoa, this is amazing. And nobody knows what it is. I'm like, wait, are you kidding me?

Matthew Shakespear [02:56:43] No, I did.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:56:43] Well, yeah, well, and then nobody had heard of the sermon in the grove. I mean, even the one or two people that had heard of. Anyway, I'm realizing that this. This man was creating all of this stuff and his opus, his final. I mean, when he finally tied the theology together that he had been creating, he was most passionate about, the man was on fire. He knew he was going to die. He knew he was going to be killed. Like every. He was passionately trying to bring forth and set out, finally tying it all together. Like, I think he was having all of his own aha. Moments Right. Like this life. Life is a matter of making it up. Most of what we realize is all is retrospectively. You know, we do things without knowing it. Most of it is mindless. It's not planned out. That's what the whole religion was. He's tying it all together with his final sermons. I just listened to Greg Prince's, you know, Giving the History once again. All we keep learning is that we're just. It's just. It's a religion of community convenience. It's a religion made up and created. And then as. Because it's a theocracy, whoever's in charge at the time gets to decide which parts of this are going to, you know, stand out and be regurgitated now and which are going to be obscured or which are going to, you know, what's going on. All these things are tying together. There's not just one thing. So it's all coming together. And then I find this. Since nobody will talk to me about the King Paulette sermon until finally someone. People are telling me, oh, stop, stop. You got it. You just stick with the. The canon just. But wait a minute. This should be the canon. Like, you. You guys don't even understand the roots of what you call your religion. I mean, once again, like, you can't call yourself a Mormon if you're not even going to understand or take the time. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's intellectual laziness. Like, I've been interested in this for what, like 24 months? And like, you gotta be hungry for it and figure it out. But no. So I have to go searching, and I find this, like, master's thesis done by somebody who's talking about the King Follett sermon. So I call him up in the middle of the night. I'm like, that's it. It's being hidden because it's not convenient because polygamy was bad enough. You know, we're still stained from this. We cannot talk about the plurality of gods. It's too much. The plurality of God's is what it was founded on. Even in the beginning, he was tying together that it was the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. That's plurality of God's, okay? And he even says that not only is it on the face of the Bible, all throughout the Bible. I told you in the beginning, right, which he didn't just tell the first time. It changed because it evolved, because he continued to create it. He continued to pull it from here and there. And his own heart and mind. And so I'm calling you up. I'm like, I'm done. This is the end. Like, I can't.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] You're done. The church. Oh.

Elizabeth Shakespear [02:59:42] Because now it's clear to me that leaders all the way back have been trying to. This is just a ridiculous religion of convenience. Like, nobody even knows the truth of the church. Like, the man's final. Like, all of it culminated in the King Follett sermon and the sermon in the grove, and nobody wants to talk about it. We need to hide it because the truth is inconvenient. The truth is uncomfortable. The truth is he had this vision of what this was all about, what he had created and why he had created it. Again, I think even the man himself is realizing things as he's going along because he continued learning. He also had a voracious appetite for information. I mean, curiosity, you know. Yeah, he's learning about Hebrew. He brings somebody in, you know, he's studying Hebrew. Well, bingo. Elohim is a plural word, people. It doesn't mean God. It means gods. All throughout the Bible, they're talking about the gods. We're all gonna. I even want to give the man credit for being a genius to believe that eventually he would have gotten beyond his destruction. Patriarchal. It's just the Father and the Son, and where was there ever a father without a son, without a father, without a son? He's eventually going to arrive at where is there ever without a female? Like, where is the mother? Where is the wife? And then he's also going to go back to the Bible, I think, and he's going to be like, well, of course it wasn't a virgin birth, you guys.

Matthew Shakespear [03:01:20] You.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:01:20] I mean, where in nature do these. You know, he would. I do believe he would have gotten there, but he can't because nobody. They're going to cut him off. We're going to bury this. This is where it's at. And nobody wants to admit it.

John Dehlin [03:01:34] But this didn't make you want to be more of a Mormon. No, this made you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:01:37] I was done.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] Why? Just because. It's.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:01:39] Because it's embarrassing. It's disgusting.

John Dehlin [03:01:42] Why didn't it make you want to be, like, a Denver Snuffer Mormon, where you're like, okay, Joseph Smith got a right, but the church has fallen into apostasy. But I'm going to believe in Joseph Smith even more. Why didn't you go that direction? I'm just kidding.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:01:53] Well, because there wasn't enough ROI around me. The return on investment wasn't there. I mean, I go to church on Sunday, and everyone's like, we have to put on our blinders. And we say the same thing every Sunday, and we feel good about regurgitating the same information. And you've got girls, young, vibrant, alive girls that have these questions about science. And they're told. They're told to be quiet. They're told to quiet their questions, to just have faith and to believe things like, well, God makes the temple look really beautiful. Isn't it amazing? I don't know. Ridiculous things like, you're on a hike and they're like, isn't it amazing that Heavenly Father put that flower there just for. For us to see? What?

John Dehlin [03:02:43] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:02:44] So do you understand what I'm saying is, like, there isn't. At some point, you realize your time is being wasted.

Matthew Shakespear [03:02:51] There is a huge.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:02:52] That sounds. It doesn't sound very loving and kind and compassionate. But, you know, I mean, at the same time, I'm being looked at as, you know, just whatever. The single mom who's looked down upon. Right. I'm looked down upon. In fact, I think you were asked, why her?

John Dehlin [03:03:13] Why her? In what sense?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:03:14] Like, why would he. Why would he want to be with me?

John Dehlin [03:03:17] This is a little later when I

Matthew Shakespear [03:03:18] was asked that question, but why would I want to be with her?

John Dehlin [03:03:21] Okay. So, Elizabeth, so you have this faith crisis. You lose your faith in the church.

Matthew Shakespear [03:03:27] Yeah. So I guess if I would maybe to, like, show my perspective on that. What it really came down to was the fact that this information was out there and had been obscured intentionally.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:03:41] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [03:03:42] That's where. That's what made her sick. That was it. Right? That was. It's like, I'm out. Because, in fact, I can't remember. The text was something like, I can't believe this. This is ridiculous. I'm out. Because all they have been doing is lying.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:03:59] I mean, their own prophet. Then don't call it like. Don't pretend he's your prophet. He's only kind of my prophet. I mean, I kind of liked some of the things he taught, but the other things. No.

Matthew Shakespear [03:04:15] So that paper is called. It's. It's. I'll get the. Well, it's Joseph Smith and the Bible. Extending the text and filling the silences.

John Dehlin [03:04:24] Oh, this is the James E. Needham. This is the. So I lived in Logan. There's a famous.

Matthew Shakespear [03:04:29] There.

John Dehlin [03:04:30] Okay. Jewelers.

Matthew Shakespear [03:04:31] All right.

John Dehlin [03:04:32] And it's like a grandfather and then his son and then his.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:04:36] Yeah, this was Eugene.

John Dehlin [03:04:37] Eugene owns. Owns Essie Needham right now, but his son James Needham.

Matthew Shakespear [03:04:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:44] Was in my ward in North Logan when I got excommunicated.

Matthew Shakespear [03:04:47] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [03:04:48] So James always talked to me about his kind of dad. His dad presented at Sunstone, but he wasn't the liberal progressive Mormon, and he was more the fundamentalist Denver snuffer, like, let's go back to our roots, kind of a fundamentalist Mormon. I'm not accusing him of polygamy. Who knows, but. But, yeah, he didn't go the route of I'm not gonna believe in the church anymore. He was more in the route of maybe the church has fallen into apostasy because we've abandoned. We've abandoned the most precious things of Joseph's teachings. And I know the Needhams. So this is interesting. When I saw that in the notes, I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah. How does he play in. So anyway, it's interesting.

Matthew Shakespear [03:05:29] Yeah. So there it was. I mean, certainly Elizabeth really ran into, like, the. Kind of gathered the ire of a lot of the ward members when she would ask these questions. It was like, you're in the deep end of the pool, young lady, and you need to get back to the shallow end. Like, stay out of that. Stay away from that part of the pool.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:05:57] Yeah. I was even told that this. In fact, then I went on to read that this was the case. I mean, over and over again, that the King Fallet sermon is invalid. It's inconsequential, you guys. Doesn't matter. Are you kidding me?

Matthew Shakespear [03:06:15] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:06:16] I don't know. That just seems like that's the part that it's just too much at that point. It's too much like, yeah, you can say there's good that's happening, and, okay, fine, you know, but more good can happen if we try.

Matthew Shakespear [03:06:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [03:06:35] So, of course, yeah, for me, I've gone through rough stone rolling now, and I'm seeing, like, whoa, yeah, things are kind of not adding up. Meaning, like, what I have been told my whole life is not what the historical record says. And this is not because it's made up by an apostate person, but because what I'm seeing here is history. It's documented history. And I haven't been to. I haven't been told this ever. I haven't. This has not been shared with me. So.

John Dehlin [03:07:16] But.

Matthew Shakespear [03:07:17] But as we go into the fall of 2018, I'm really kind of like, you know, we're talking back and forth about these things. I'm really kind of of the. The feeling. And then even into the winter, I'm like, you know, these men, the leaders of the church, the current leaders of the church and those even in the past, are operating off of their learned experience and their environment of the time. And so they're just expressing themselves in what they know and what they understand, the meaning they have made. So don't be. I didn't want to be too harsh to say they're outright lying. They're outright just. They know one thing and they're saying another. I wasn't ready to say that yet, but. January 2019, I'm driving down two years ago. Just two years ago, yeah, I'm driving down to California. We take our bees down to California to pollinate the almonds. I spend six weeks down there, take the crew down, take all the bees. It's quite a. Quite a trek. But I'm driving down between. Between Bend and Klamath falls. I'm probably 30 miles north of Klamath Falls, Oregon. Elizabeth and I are talking on the phone about these issues, right. They're just men of their time. They're just men of their environment. Don't be so harsh. They're just acting on what meaning they've made. And she says, matthew, these are smart men. They're not dumb.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:09:12] Have you ever listened to the degrees that get rattled off at the beginning of the talk?

John Dehlin [03:09:16] Lots of Harvards and Yales and.

Matthew Shakespear [03:09:21] And I just allowed myself to really just contemplate that question without trying to take away my bias and what I wanted to be. And it crumbled. Because I felt she was right. They knew. They knew something different than what they had been telling me my whole life. And of course, I didn't know all the data. Of course, you know, since then, of course, that we've, you know, we've. Montez, you mean you have the BH Roberts stuff. So, so, so the data, more data, more evidence, more damning evidence has come out since. Right. For. For me. But even then it felt very clear to me that some pretty serious deception had been taking place, is taking place. And that just didn't feel right. I couldn't. I couldn't hold that anymore, That they were intentionally holding back issues of true

John Dehlin [03:10:58] history

Matthew Shakespear [03:11:01] because they were afraid of what would happen if they let it all out.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:11:08] And then to make it worse, hiring people to people who practice intellectual dishonesty out of necessity for whatever their profession is, such as the apologists, Right. I mean that you have to be intellectually dishonest as an apologist. You have to spin things and you have to, let's say some lawyers let's say a defense attorney, a used car salesman, I don't know. There are all these different places. You practice intellectual dishonesty, meaning you're not saying a direct, outright lie, but you're going to spin it in a way that maybe you're going to use a tactic to make the person feel dumb or maybe use a tactic to gaslight. Maybe you use a tactic to,

Matthew Shakespear [03:11:58] to

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:11:58] make them feel insecure, you know, scared, whatever it is. There are all these tactics that are used to perpetuate the lies and make you feel bad for questioning. And that's the part that is so insidious and so I couldn't stomach. Like, for me, it's important. You know, when a child says something like, you know, I was hiking and I thought I, you know, whatever, like a rattlesnake or something. And then I knew. The Holy Spirit told me. And I'm like, well, hang on, wait a minute. What about your intuition? What about the fact that you're a human being that evolved from human beings, you know, thousands of years ago? And I, you know, when you're in nature, it's your intuition and things that you know that are letting you. That's a little tiny way of. We dumb people down and then you don't stop doing it and they become adults and you just keep lying and spinning the truth and convince why. What good is coming of that? Do you think more good could happen if we were completely honest and we encouraged people to look at the other possibilities of, of, of intelligence instead of dumbing people down and convincing them that, no, this is the way it is, and hiding things and obscuring things, I mean, anymore. I don't even think telling children about Santa is good. I think that's sad. It just sets us up. I work with preschoolers. I refuse to lie to them. I refuse to play the games because we're just. It doesn't stop. When are we going to stop doing that? When is what is real going to be real? It is no wonder we are so confused. And it is no wonder that, you know, we, we can have 20, 000 whatever. We have millions of people having a shared experience and walking away from it and having completely different perspectives of it. Totally different reality. We're trained for that. We're trained for it. And I don't want to participate in it. And while I'm not going to tell somebody else, they can't. I'm going to not encourage it. Certainly won't encourage it.

Matthew Shakespear [03:14:24] Yeah.

Realizing the Church Is Not What They Believed

John Dehlin [03:14:25] So what do you do when you're Several years into being a Mormon bishop, and you realize that not only the church wasn't what you thought, but you arrive at the conclusion that the top church leaders have been intentionally misleading people for a couple centuries.

Matthew Shakespear [03:14:46] Yeah. Well, first, what you do is you. At least for me, I shouldn't say you. I'm going to speak my experience while I was down in California, after this realization, on the trip down. Let's see, very quickly, we. Elizabeth actually found the survey that you did with Greg Prince and others about why people leave the church. She found that. That PowerPoint, and she sent that on to me. I was kind of, you know, it was interesting to me, and. And even in some kind of weird kind of serendipity, I went to church there in Oakdale, California. And the man who taught the lesson on Sunday in Elders Quorum, there was something I recognized in his speech. There was something different about his. His way of looking at the church, the way he presented the lesson. And this is the amazing thing about our minds, is our minds are as much a filter about reality as they are a collector of it. Actually, more probably more so. A filter. Right. But when I think if a person practices mindfulness and meditation, we come to realize. And not to say, I mean, it can be present in anyone, but there are some people who are better at recognizing the little subtle things, inflections, eyes get cast down, a little jitter or whatever. Shrug or a shrug or whatever it might be.

John Dehlin [03:16:35] Sigh.

Matthew Shakespear [03:16:37] And we recognize something's different. But I went and talked to that man after. I was like, that's a great lesson. And this is funny because have you ever heard of Thomas Worthland McConkie? He's like, no, but he's like, it's my birthday today, and look what my wife got me. It was Greg Prince's book.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:16:57] Which one? The Thomas Omas.

Matthew Shakespear [03:16:59] No, Greg Prince, Letter Harrington and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. And I was like, greg Prince, David O. McKay. David O. McKay.

John Dehlin [03:17:07] Yeah. David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. Yeah. So anyway, here's my first interview on Mormon stories.

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:12] About that book.

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:13] Okay. So very quickly, we discovered Mormon stories. And for me, it was like, well,

John Dehlin [03:17:20] you asked him the question, what did he. Did you connect on anything?

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:23] No. So we didn't connect on Thomas Worth. And McConkey. He'd never heard of him.

John Dehlin [03:17:26] Okay, okay. But I.

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:27] But I did realize that he was definitely not an orthodox member, that he was. He was nuanced in his approach.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:17:37] Be interesting to know where he is now.

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:39] You know, I thought about when I just came back from there. I thought about looking him up, but I just didn't. Didn't have the time. Didn't work out. But I will someday. We exchanged texts over a couple years, but not very often. So we found your Mormon Stories podcast for me.

John Dehlin [03:17:57] From there?

Matthew Shakespear [03:17:58] Yeah, from there.

John Dehlin [03:17:59] How did that take you to Mormon Stories?

Matthew Shakespear [03:18:01] Greg Prince, I think. I think it was. He sent me that man. Or maybe it was you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:18:06] Well, I had sent you the Leonard.

John Dehlin [03:18:08] You learned about Greg Prince.

Matthew Shakespear [03:18:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:18:10] Which led you to Mormon Stories, is that right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:18:12] No, the slideshow. Read it led us to Mormon Stories.

Matthew Shakespear [03:18:16] Okay. Yeah, it might have been. Those are all really so close.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:18:19] But Greg Prince, Leonard Arrington, Mormon Stories was instrumental for me. And just this, like.

John Dehlin [03:18:30] No, because at the end of the day, what that shows is the church thought of, flirted with becoming open and honest about its history, and then as soon as they got uncomfortable, they shut it all down. That was what happened with Leonard Arrington and the church.

Matthew Shakespear [03:18:46] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:18:46] Right? Is that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:18:47] Yeah. Yes.

Matthew Shakespear [03:18:49] Yeah. So, but for me, at that point, I was like, I'm the bishop. There's a lot of people that I've helped. There's a lot of people that still need help. And maybe. Maybe I can be a nuanced bishop. Right. Maybe I can be one who.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:19:04] Oh, yeah, that was my encouragement.

Matthew Shakespear [03:19:06] Yeah. One who continues to help, but from a different perspective than I've approached it before and still uses that position to help other people with what their real needs are like, with what's really there. In fact, I now see something more, and I feel more of a connection to people now than I did before, because something about the structure has fallen away. And now all you are in front of me is a human being with real needs, just like me. So that was my desire. I mean, I listened to Greg Prince. I listened to your interviews with Terrell Givens, Fiona Givens, but not only, but I mean, shoot, I listened to so much Mormon Stories during those six weeks, John. But what here, now? I told you we'd come back to James Hamula. I have to fly home one time to go back and speak at in Ward conference, Natchez Word Conference. Bishop needs to be there to give us talk. Right. I fly back there, really struggle about what to share. But it was. It was. It was a talk about love. Love about. Let's look at our brothers and sisters with open eyes and open our heart to them and be more honest than we've ever been before. That's what we need to do. So then I go back to California Work a few more weeks. My wife and children had. Had helped find a friend of my second daughter. They brought him in, they went through the missionary discussions and they wanted to join the church and they asked me to baptize them about. It was two weeks after the word conference, and here I am feeling some. On some kind of existential shaky ground. But, you know, I booked the flight and I come home. But I'm listening to the Maclays podcast, Brooke and John Burke and John McClay and get on the flight to go from Seattle to Yakima and look up and who's three rows in front of me but James Hamula.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:21:51] That's when I was very suspicious about why is he coming back to Yakima? Who would come to Yakuma? Like, why?

Matthew Shakespear [03:21:57] I. I don't know. I don't know why, Because I.

John Dehlin [03:22:00] But it's a good question.

Matthew Shakespear [03:22:02] It's a really good question.

John Dehlin [03:22:03] On a flight to Yakima.

Matthew Shakespear [03:22:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:22:05] And you were on the flight with him?

Matthew Shakespear [03:22:06] And I was on the flight with him. I'm sitting here listening. I download. I downloaded the podcast so I could listen during the flight. I'm sitting here listening to John Brooke McClay, and three rows in front of me is James Hamula, the one who 3 years Previous I'd sat in an

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:22:20] interview, told you to keep your nose

Matthew Shakespear [03:22:22] clean and told me bishop. Yes. It was after he'd been excommunicated. Yes. And I was aware of that. I was aware of that. But I was like, this is so weird.

John Dehlin [03:22:40] Did you talk to him?

Matthew Shakespear [03:22:41] I did, but just briefly. Did he recognize you after the flight? Well, we were deplaning in Yakima and I. I went up to him and I said, James Hamilla, right? Yeah. I said, I don't know if you remember me. Matthew Shakespear. Oh, yeah. But he wasn't interested in talking. It was pretty evident. How are you doing? I'm fine. How are you? Pretty good. That was about it.

John Dehlin [03:23:16] So you mentioned that story. Why? Just serendipity.

Matthew Shakespear [03:23:18] Well, it was kind of serendipity. And at the moment, like, I wanted to say James, dagnabbit, All falling apart for me. Like, are you. Did you know this stuff? Like, I wanted to say so many things. I wanted to, like, lash out in like, some anger and I wanted to cry and I wanted to. I don't know.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:23:44] It is symbolic. I mean, it is weird, right? Those are those kinds of things that make you go, are there sliding doors that I'm slipping in and out of reality dimensions? And this is another.

John Dehlin [03:23:55] So you Wanted to sell those things, but.

Matthew Shakespear [03:23:58] But I. I didn't know how. I didn't know what to say, nor did I really know. I mean, certainly, yeah, there's rumors and suspicions, but I didn't even know what place where he. Where he's at. Right. And I. And I didn't just. I didn't know what to say, but I wanted to say something more than just hello.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:24:19] He made it clear he didn't want.

Matthew Shakespear [03:24:21] But it was pretty evident from his body language that he was like, wonder,

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:24:25] like, why Yakima, right?

Matthew Shakespear [03:24:27] Why Yakima, Right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:24:28] What was going on?

Matthew Shakespear [03:24:29] Did he have somebody he was dating? I don't know. I just. Who knows, right? But it was so weird that he would show up in Yakima. And my wife met me at the airport, picked me up. I was like, guess who I just saw all the while. So at this point in time, she had no clue of the turmoil that I was feeling about church, about my faith. And I said, guess who I just saw? James Hamuel is on the flight. Look, he's right over there. And she's like, oh, did you. Did you go talk to him? I said, yeah. I said, hi. You should go up to him and say, I love you, brother. It was pretty evident to me he didn't want to talk to me anymore. And he kind of, like, slinked back into the corner and stayed out of sight while we waited for our bags. It was. The body language was clear. And for. I totally can just be compassionate about that. I'm okay with. That was just weird, right? So we do the baptism for that sister. The two sisters. Great people. Just really so conflicted for me, like, I'm not. I don't feel any solid ground here, but I'm the bishop, and I have been asked to do this, and they feel a connection with me, and, okay, I'll do it. Right. But it was really an interesting experience of paradox of life, I guess. Right. So, yeah, that whole, whole, whole January, February in California was full of Mormon Stories podcast, trying to figure out how to stay in. But it was pretty quick that I realized, like, well, I didn't see a very clear path for me to do it that way.

John Dehlin [03:26:42] Can I just say, this is beautiful. Thank you. And I have bishops, stake presidency members, CES instructors, serving missionaries, reach out to me weekly.

Matthew Shakespear [03:26:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:56] Telling me they listen to Mormon stories. It is big. My audience. We had 9 million downloads and views last year.

Matthew Shakespear [03:27:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:05] The church thought that by excommunicating me, they would dispose of me and shut me down. The Audience has only grown. And right now there are bishops, stake presidents, missionaries, CES instructors listening to my voice and going through what you're going through. It's happening all over the world. I don't mean to be overly dramatic. They reach out to me every week.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:27:28] I believe, meanwhile, they're gonna keep driving the same narrative and doing the same lying and the same obscuring and hiring people like, what are those BYU kids? That's the avenue we'll go. That'll work.

Matthew Shakespear [03:27:47] So, yeah, that really just didn't feel like the path that I could sustain. I came back and I kind of tested the waters with my wife sharing some concerns, and it was met in, I guess, what would be, I guess, the best way that she knew how was the continued kind of narrative of, you know, what you felt before. Why are you discounting that? It's the best that she could do? I guess I would characterize it that way. I remember a particular example where I was probably in one of maybe. Maybe my more angry moments. And this is paradoxical, of course, because of how Elizabeth and I were feeling toward each other, but I think it was kind of a moment of anger about Joseph Smith, his deception around. In that moment, it was around polygamy. And I said something that was probably hurtful, something about, like, he was a liar and charlatan to. To my wife. And. And she turned to me with righteous indignation in her voice and said, I will never stop believing in the prophet Joseph Smith, so stop saying what you're saying. And that was like,

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:29:31] these are important things. Because even moments ago, I had the question, like, why? Because what you said was, you know, I was having all of these feelings, but my wife still didn't know. And, I mean, I know Matthew very well now. I actually think I know him better than anyone does because it's so hard for him to be who he is. So when he tries to show up, right, and tries to reveal his real thoughts, if it's shut down, he just. Right. And I was aware of this, and I was aware of obviously, what was transpiring emotionally as we were simultaneously stepping into this new territory together. You know, post Mormon ideals, you know, like, where do we go? But our lives are so different. And I'm very forthcoming that I think that the best thing is for me to get basically get the hell out of Dodge.

Matthew Shakespear [03:30:34] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:30:34] Like, I need to just. I need to about face. Because whatever he's going through, I can't be part of. Right. Like, I can't.

John Dehlin [03:30:46] Well, then let me. Let me Ask to back up. I want you to continue that thought. But what last we left it. So we just went through your. Your faith crisis, Elizabeth, and then yours, Bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [03:30:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:57] Shakespear last we left it about your relationship was you had had the stirrings and then he put them back in the. In the box. Right. And he stayed compartmentalized. So is there anything. Did your relationship develop between then and January 2019?

Matthew Shakespear [03:31:15] It was spoken, I think, if I remember correctly. Yes. So we need to fill in that development for sure.

John Dehlin [03:31:21] Whatever you want to show.

Matthew Shakespear [03:31:22] No, no. And this is good because. Because. Yes. In that period of time. So summer 2018 into fall of 2018. So this is pre. Kind of faith crisis. Right. But we're meaning makers as human beings and we feel the feelings we feel and then try and fit it into our paradigm. Right. So because of this deep emotional connection that we have developed over the years as we have talked about everything under the sun.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:32:02] Become really good friends.

Matthew Shakespear [03:32:04] We have become very good friends and emotionally tied in a very deep way. And I would even say, to be honest, there was a moment where I realized if I continued to engage in the friendship that it could very well end my current marriage.

John Dehlin [03:32:40] It'd be a scandal.

Matthew Shakespear [03:32:42] Yeah. Right. And I also remember making the conscious decision that I liked the feeling of the relationship that I had with Elizabeth enough. It was a risk I was willing to take and move forward with.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:33:04] Well, when you say move forward, I mean what was spoken was. This is indelibly seared for me was that. I think in eight to ten years was the. He threw this number out. So. John, I've never. No, it was eight to ten.

Matthew Shakespear [03:33:21] Was it eight, ten. Okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:33:23] I've never been known for my patience. I just don't. I don't have a lot of patience. Even when I try my hardest to focus on this virtue. It's extremely hard for me to cultivate patience because there's so many things you can do. Why wait? You move, you do. You just. I'm in control here. Like so why would I wait 8 to 10 years for you for your marriage to slowly die? Which I didn't think that was a respectable idea anyway.

John Dehlin [03:33:51] Said that you had said.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:33:52] He didn't say it in those words. He didn't say he was going to let his marriage die in a. But it was something like. It was a reference of an.

Matthew Shakespear [03:33:58] There was a time frame.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:34:00] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [03:34:00] But I had actually spoken.

John Dehlin [03:34:02] I can't end my marriage now.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:34:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:04] But I can in 10 years. So how do we hold on to what we have?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:34:07] And what are we going to do in eight to 10 years? How does this unfold?

Matthew Shakespear [03:34:10] I'm like, yes, that's.

John Dehlin [03:34:11] That's pretty much a good characterization to anything too overt. Is that what you're saying?

Matthew Shakespear [03:34:17] Correct? Yes.

John Dehlin [03:34:18] Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [03:34:18] Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it was. But. But when I say the meaning that we were making was we felt. Both of us felt as though we had, in some mysterious and eternal way.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:34:32] Oh, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [03:34:33] Been sealed. And. And I mean, wait, no, that I

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:34:37] really believed that we had been. So I had some experiences in the temple. Now, you have to remember, my background in Mormonism was very unorthodox. You know, I thought that church was going in the mountains on Sundays, you know, the temp. That was God's temple. So I'm going in here and I'm having real experiences, real spiritual. I have so many questions. Like, I'm watching this endowment thing over and over again, and I'm like, my mind's going. You know, I'm reading Hugh Nibley's One Eternal Round. I am like, I'm making sense of things. And the only thing that makes sense is that we've already been sealed. Like, I don't have to do anything. We don't have to do anything. I don't have to wait. I don't have to. You know, there's nothing. Like, in fact, at another temple experience, I believed that. So he, of course, therefore, had been sealed to my daughter even. You know, these things are embarrassing for me to admit right now. I want you to know this. Like, this isn't easy.

Matthew Shakespear [03:35:42] This isn't. Yeah. Certainly not like trying to be brazen or anything like that. It really is like wanting to speak the truth, really.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:35:48] And I had had. I had had a high fever one time, and I had a dream in this fever, I had been given a blessing by the missionaries who had already said something weird. And then I have this fever. And then there's like this thing where he puts his fingers on my lips and says something like, it is not secret. It is sacred. And I had been listening to a Truman Madsen talk Prior and about how we'll all sit down at the breakfast table together. You know, we'll have this. The keys have all been restored. We're all going to. In the eternity. We're one big family, you know, it's already a done deal. Like, we're sealed. It happened beforehand. Maybe it'll happen on this Life on this planet in this iteration. But what was important in my consciousness anyway was that I wholeheartedly believed that. I remember even asking A sister in the parking lot of church. Like, do you. Because she was sad that her husband wasn't a member. And I was asking her why she isn't going to the temple. Like, why are you not doing this? This is amazing. You've got to do this. If you're in it, why not be all the way in it? And she's like, well, my husband's not. And then we had a conversation, and then I ended up asking her, okay, she thinks she's gonna meet her husband after she dies. The real one. Right? Like, the real husband. Like, which I think is wild, but not. And then I realized, wait, that's not any more wild than me thinking, I've already met mine. Matthew and I, we had been sealed previously. That's so obvious to me. Why else would I have been in Natchez? Why else would any of these weird things be happening? Why else would I. Like, none of this makes sense. So the only way I can make sense of it is to believe these things. And again, I'm reading Joseph Smith's Polygamy and just all these things I'm just trying to make sense. And that's all we're ever doing. We're just trying to make sense of things.

The Relationship Between Matthew and Elizabeth Develops

John Dehlin [03:37:57] So are you saying you reached a conclusion at some point that you were and. Or would become a plural wife of Bishop Shakespear?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:38:08] That's an interesting way of framing it.

John Dehlin [03:38:13] What else would sealing mean?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:38:15] Well, we were already sealed, so I was a plural.

John Dehlin [03:38:18] That's what I said.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:38:19] Okay. So not become. Right. So I was.

John Dehlin [03:38:22] You were his plural.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:38:23] The plural wife. Right. Yeah. No, absolutely. And so there was no becoming. I already was. And. But yet I also realize that we work within the constructs of, you know, the norms, mores, and, you know, what's going on. He's married. He's got six kids and responsibilities and a life, and I do not want to be part of. I just don't want to be part of destroying that, you know, for my own karma, for my own life here, for whatever reasons. Like, I don't want to be that. And I don't know what more to say except for that at this time, you know, we're trying to make sense of things, and I'm really thinking that the best thing is to leave. Like, I need to leave, like, whatever's happening with him now. Okay, fine. If eight, 10 years. Like, if I'm living in Tucson and he looks me up. Cool.

John Dehlin [03:39:22] So this was without you guys ever really crossing into. Obviously, you were very close emotionally.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:39:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:30] But you're saying without ever crossing into any thing that anybody would say was scandalous, you had concluded you were probably already sealed to him as a plural wife, and then you were destined for eternity to be together, but that maybe now it wasn't the time, but maybe later it would become the time. Is that what you're saying?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:39:48] That was my narrative for sure.

John Dehlin [03:39:51] Did you tell him?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:39:51] And I did tell him. I mean, I shared with him little bits along the way because I did think some of these things were crazy. And I was questioning my own sanity, you know, wondering about, like, he baptized me for the dead, you know, And I had some. Well, okay, I had a panic attack is what I had at one point there when I had to go into the room where I'm. The door is shut, and it's small. It's a small room, and there's three men in there, and I'm behind closed doors with three men. That was. That was a terrifying experience. So I think I was already in a. An unhealthy mind. Like, some things have been triggered in me. Right. Anyway, so then I'm looking back after all of that later, trying to reconcile what the heck just happened. And this temple is supposed to be this amazing place. Why did this happen? And I'm looking back over how I had felt like after I came out of the water and I went to. And sat next to his wife. And I. I think I might have been dissociating several times while I was in the temple, just because my own anxiety, things I was fitting pieces in. I was feeling like I was making sense of things that didn't make sense. Yeah. I don't know if this is helping. Making it worse.

John Dehlin [03:41:14] To me, it makes all the sense in the world.

Matthew Shakespear [03:41:17] World. Yeah. No, no. I mean, and when you're in the moment of these things, you sometimes don't see that. It's much easier for us to see this in retrospect now and actually even be honest to the fact that those are feelings. Those are feelings that we made meaning with in some pretty significant ways.

John Dehlin [03:41:43] So when she tells you her theory about you being sealed sounds great to me.

Matthew Shakespear [03:41:48] I mean, I'm not trying to be trite because. Because it did. I mean, I. I had made my own meaning that was very similar. So this was kind of. It was like a. It was an. It was inching and moving. Right. Her moving me moving, coming to conclusions, coming to meaning. And, you know, we speak of this. I mean, I'm trying to remember the author's name, but the eternal ghost of Polygamy Carolyn Pearson. Carolyn Pearson. Thank you. So that's, you know, that's what happened. Right. The ghost of polygamy reared its head as we made meaning about our intense emotional intimacy. And we found the framework that made it work. We found the meaning.

John Dehlin [03:42:52] And I just have to say, like, to me, this explains Joseph Smith's polygamy.

Matthew Shakespear [03:42:59] It does. It did.

John Dehlin [03:43:00] Not necessarily. Maybe he was a sexual predator, but maybe he just, in a leadership role, developed feelings for lots of people.

Matthew Shakespear [03:43:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:43:09] And then he's like, how do I make sense of these feelings? Well, I know about the Old Testament, and I know about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David and Solomon. Maybe there needs to be a restoration of all things.

Matthew Shakespear [03:43:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:43:22] So maybe the reason why I'm feeling so strong for Fanny, or maybe I'm feeling so strong for Elizabeth or whoever, it's because somehow I need to restore all things.

Matthew Shakespear [03:43:32] Absolutely. And I agree with you.

John Dehlin [03:43:35] Sex and emotions and love all get intermingled and boom, you've got doctrine and theology. Why was it so messy? Why did it come before the ceiling? Or why did it come before the revelation? Or why wasn't Emma told? Is because the emotions precede the. The justification. The emotions precede the cognitive dissonance and then the rationalization. And yeah, the. The DNC132 comes as a way to try and like, codify this and rationalize it long after the emotions and the behavior. It all work their ways through everything, for sure. And this explains Richard Lyman, the Mormon apostle that agreed. Takes on a second. Takes on, you know, it keeps his marriage to his first wife, but then in the 40s and 50s or 30s, 40s and 50s, takes on. Yeah, a secretary that he probably believes is his plural wife somehow. And. And this explains stuff that I've been through. And you know, because the truth is you just have these feelings and then you make. Make sense and meaning out of it. And that's. That's what. Right, you guys.

Matthew Shakespear [03:44:41] So it's really. I mean, and I really hope that. I guess I want to speak to the fact that we're not wanting to be trite and we're not wanting to

John Dehlin [03:44:52] get that at all.

Matthew Shakespear [03:44:53] Because, of course, people's feelings and emotions, other people who are not in this room right now, their feelings and emotions and lives were affected by that. So it's serious. Right? And it's super serious.

John Dehlin [03:45:14] I don't mean to make.

Matthew Shakespear [03:45:15] No, and I. I don't feel you are, but I guess I just want to make mention to the fact that it's really. It's Just an important thing to acknowledge as human beings how we. How we make that meaning and how we frame things and put things into framing.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:45:32] Memory is fallible too.

John Dehlin [03:45:34] I mean, well, and just to make it super dark, Chad Dabel and Lori Valo.

Matthew Shakespear [03:45:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:38] This has to be what happened with them.

Matthew Shakespear [03:45:40] Right.

John Dehlin [03:45:41] And it got really dark because all of a sudden they're killing their own children and they're breaking laws and felon burying their own children and believing that it's their spirits were taken over and just.

Matthew Shakespear [03:45:55] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:56] Like, I mean, I think at the core part of what's dangerous about this whole thing is this core Mormon doctrine that feelings are truth, that feelings are the way that you arrive at truth. And then you mix in weird history and weird doctrine with very strong feelings. Anything is possible, good or bad. Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:46:18] And you're rewarded for having those feelings. That's the other weird thing that I noticed is like the tears and the emotion and. And you're trained as Mormons to have these things. And you give so much more power to emotion than logic. No, in fact, logic is pooh poohed. You know, rationality is looked down upon. You need to have faith and you need to let your emotions guide you. But. Except when they take you places like where they led us, you know? But emotions are what are cultivated and rewarded and lies. It just perpetuates lying because. You got it. Our emotions are not always healthy. Emotions are not always beneficial, benevolent, or even prudent to. Like what's.

John Dehlin [03:47:07] Even when they feel super good. Right?

Matthew Shakespear [03:47:09] They feel good. Yeah. Right. So. And it even in returns to this. Back to this thing, this fact of not wanting me to speak about the process of calling a new stake president, because if we take away the magic thinking in that, that also allows people to use that magical thinking, so to speak, the spirit, the direction of the spirit, to either perpetuate harm or do things that are unhealthy under the guise of the spirit leading me. Right. But if I could pull that back, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to share this experience, because we need to pull the curtain back. To not perpetuate the message of your feelings and emotion is what trumps all.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:48:09] Yeah. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That's so inextricably linked too, to another big part of the culture that I see of dishonesty, and that's that there's this guise of being kind. Like, I especially see it with the sisters, but it's with the men as well, and the brethren in the church. I would notice it as well. But they teach it almost explicitly to the young women. In fact, there's like a quote I just saw on a young woman's wall. But it's like your happiness is making other people happy. That is your happiness. Your happiness is making other people happy. And so you lie to make people feel good. And that's encouraged because it's nice and it's kind. And there are women in the church who as such a strong practice, they're completely unaware of it. And in fact, if you call them out on it, they're going to deny it vehemently because they actually are not even aware of the fact that they will lie constantly to try to make other people feel good or what they think. But that's the other crazy part, that they think they're so powerful that they get to be the ones to decide what's this person's well being is really based on. Do you understand? Like there's. They're. They're believing that by me being nice in this way, that's going to help her be happier or him be happier. That's a power trip that's bred in the church.

Matthew Shakespear [03:49:40] Yeah. So there we were, right? I mean, in the midst of our own individual faith crisis, feeling very connected to one another.

John Dehlin [03:49:56] So that's the double whammy. Bishop loses his faith. You know, obviously, Elizabeth, you lost your faith, but now Bishop realizes he's in love with one of his parishioners. And in the mixture of all that is this extra belief that maybe somehow this was all destined.

Matthew Shakespear [03:50:18] Right?

John Dehlin [03:50:19] Yeah. Where do you go from there?

Matthew Shakespear [03:50:20] Where do you go from there?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:50:21] Which I don't believe anymore. I mean, again, I feel like these things are kind of embarrassing.

Matthew Shakespear [03:50:26] So, yeah, I mean, certainly speaking now we've had time to sift through that. And yeah, we don't believe that we were sealed before, but that's of course in retrospect.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:50:38] And I don't believe in death any believe that I was right. You know, why was it that I took the apartment in Natchez and you know, that was not God's hand. Like God does not move us around like pieces of chess, you know, on the game board.

Matthew Shakespear [03:50:59] So from there, you know, actually, so at that point, I send an email off to the stake president and say, hey, I've got some questions. And part of they come from a member of the ward, but I also, it has caused me to have some questions and I want to talk with you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:51:23] You were ignored.

Matthew Shakespear [03:51:24] And it's about a month and I see him at a regional youth Conference. And he says, yeah, I remember that email. Can we talk right now?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:51:37] In the hallway.

Matthew Shakespear [03:51:37] In the hallway. And I was like, well, I can share some things. We started to talk, and then a youth came up and wanted to visit with the stake President. So that was a priority. We made an appointment to talk at his office, and I went in and I shared some of my biggest misgivings. I. He was like, so let's. Let's start with the basics. God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost. Well, maybe there's a power out there, but. And, you know, that was your answer to him. That was my answer to him, right. He says, what about priesthood? I said, I think priesthood's held by every human being on the earth, including women.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:52:24] He wants him to keep serving. After he just told him, maybe there's a higher power out there and women are just as legit in the priesthood as men.

Matthew Shakespear [03:52:35] So he's like, wow. Wow. Okay, so let me tell you what you need to do, Bishop. You need to gain your testimony back one piece at a time, the same way you got it the first time.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:52:48] You were born into it. You did not gain it. That's another fallacy. It was bred into you.

Matthew Shakespear [03:52:56] So that was instruction. And he's like. And I had actually, in the email, I'd said, you know, I really feel like I need to be released from my calling as bishop. And so we addressed that at the time. And he said to me, you know, it's not your decision as to whether you're done serving as bishop. It's my determination to make. And so what I want you to do is I want you to work on regaining your testimony. And let's just be in communication about this.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:53:31] When he told me that.

Matthew Shakespear [03:53:33] So I was like, wow, that's a little interesting. I felt like, to me, I was like, here you have basically a loose cannon on the deck. Speaking of myself, right? I'm the loose cannon. Like, who's not speaking the narrative that a bishop should be speaking?

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:53:55] If you were a malicious person, you could do all kinds of damage.

Matthew Shakespear [03:53:57] And if I had been a malicious person, of course he was trusting on the fact that he felt like he knew me well enough that I wasn't. But if I had been, I could really have hurt a lot of people during that period of time.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:54:12] But it hurt you, and that's the important thing. He came away from that so disempowered. From my perspective, I was blown away. I was like, wait a minute, he just told you, you don't even have the power to step down From a volunteer position. Maybe he didn't get the memo. But you're actually a volunteer.

Matthew Shakespear [03:54:34] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:54:35] And. And you can't even step down. And he says, you don't get to decide. And then it's some like, this is my decision. And he doesn't even give the power to God. It wasn't even. It's not even that. It was God's calling. It was his decision to decide whether Matthew is bishop or not.

John Dehlin [03:54:52] Well, if I'm trying to guess what he's thinking and feeling, it's like, at a minimum, it's like, we can't have this scandal where a bishop loses his testimony and steps down from his calling. What will the ward think? How will that affect all the testimony?

Matthew Shakespear [03:55:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:55:08] Yeah. And there could have been care for you. It's like, hey, you know, this is definitely. We don't want you to get hurt. Get your testimony back. I don't want to embarrass you by releasing you.

Matthew Shakespear [03:55:17] By releasing you. And when maybe you'll have a chance of getting a belief.

John Dehlin [03:55:22] And there's all sorts of motivation.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:55:24] Say all that. That's the part that, like, that's real, John. Like, and we're inferring it because people don't say it.

John Dehlin [03:55:32] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:55:33] And that's just what I want to break through, too. If there's a takeaway message here. It's like, stop. Stop with the bs. Stop with the fallacies.

John Dehlin [03:55:41] Because the wizard never voluntarily pulls open the curtain.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:55:46] This is true.

John Dehlin [03:55:48] It takes Toto to pull back the curtain.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:55:51] That's our job.

John Dehlin [03:55:51] The wizard never voluntarily pulls back.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:55:54] Be the annoying little dogs that keep.

Matthew Shakespear [03:55:59] Yeah, so that's. Yeah, I was very. I did feel frustrated after that meeting.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:56:09] Wasn't a check in or support for you and your wife. That was the other part that blew me away. Like, why are people not stepping in and offering his wife support? Why are people not coming in? I mean, he shared that there were issues in the marriage. I think maybe that was the next one.

Matthew Shakespear [03:56:26] No, no, I did. In that one, I did. I told him that we were having struggles over my issues of faith and her and I not seeing eye to eye and that being a big problem.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:56:42] So either he was aware that there were marriage problems.

Matthew Shakespear [03:56:45] Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:56:47] And even after you shared that you had feelings for me and this was all falling apart.

John Dehlin [03:56:56] Did you tell him that?

Matthew Shakespear [03:56:57] Not in that meeting.

John Dehlin [03:56:58] Okay. Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [03:56:58] It was jumping ahead. Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:57:01] My point is still, though, that they weren't offering support to his wife. Like, where were the people? They weren't offering it to him when he was asking for it, and they weren't offering it to her, as far as I know either. My. I just kept looking at this, wondering who's. Who's gaining here, what is there to gain? Who's. Whose best interest and well being is really important here.

Matthew Shakespear [03:57:25] Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I could look at it and say compassionately and want to be as kind, maybe as I can be, is to say that

John Dehlin [03:57:36] he probably he's not.

Matthew Shakespear [03:57:38] Was a deer in the headlights as well. Right. I mean, so I could have been you.

John Dehlin [03:57:44] It could have been.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:57:47] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [03:57:48] It was him instead of you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [03:57:50] One sliding door. It was you.

John Dehlin [03:57:52] I was just going to say that this reminds me of, like, the BYU student who signs the honor code, you know, believes, but then goes to BYU and loses his or her faith. They didn't choose to lose their faith when they signed the honor code. They thought it was all in the up and up.

Matthew Shakespear [03:58:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:08] But then once they do, it's like, oh, sorry, if you lose your faith, you're out because you don't want the virus to spread. And so, like, I'm really. I'm really sensitive to people that get put in this position. They didn't really ask to get put in, but because they're put in this position. Me, I'm a seminary teacher. I didn't. I might not have naturally studied church history, but then I'm called as a Mormon seminary teacher. Church history year is coming up. Doctrine and Covenants is coming up soon. Well, I want to be the best seminary teacher that I can be. So then I start studying church history, and boom, I go down the rabbit hole. Yeah, right, Right. Like, you didn't ask to be bishop. And maybe if all this stuff wouldn't have happened, maybe if you hadn't been called a bishop, all the stuff wouldn't have happened that would have ended in you falling in love with her and your marriage ended up being. You didn't ask for any of that either. In some ways, you're a victim in all this. But then the church, they. This is not the first time it's happened. Your situation, my situation, your situation. This stuff's been happening for a hundred years. Yeah, but the church just like, sweeps it under the rug, excommunicates people, hides it, denies it. Move on. Let's move on. And then the next bishop and the next bishop and the next member and the next member and the next single mom and the next single mom and the next CES instructor and the next CES instructor, they don't stop to solve the core Problem. And they don't set up a system where people like you guys and me and others can get the support they need. It's just that BYU kid loses their diploma or gets kicked out and has to go somewhere else. The marriage gets destroyed and the bishop or the stake president gets embarrassed and gets excommunicated and the marriage blows up. The. The. You know, the seminary teacher loses their job, loses their livelihood or loses their faith and gets excommunicated or gets pushed out of the church and becomes forgotten. The church should have. By now, the church should have been setting up infrastructure to support all these people like us, but instead they punt and they punt and they punt and they kick the can down the road, and they don't set up the systems that they should with their 200, $300 billion. They don't provide the counseling, support, the infrastructure, the rules, the support for the BYU student, the transfer, you know, whatever it is, they don't address these issues that they just kick the can down the road and more carnage. Year after year of carnage. Carnage. Destroyed lives, hard lives, destroyed families. They don't. They don't build in the support that is needed. Am I wrong?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:01:13] Not working out very well either.

Matthew Shakespear [04:01:15] Right. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so true. So from there, it wasn't that long after. So my oldest daughter had received her mission call and she got set apart. My wife and I drove her down to the MTC in Provo. We dropped her off. She had. My oldest daughter was certainly aware of something not right between. Well, it was expressed to my wife the night before she left or something. I was in the middle of pollination season and busy moving bees, but she had said, hey, mom, is dad okay? Her response was, I know there's something wrong, but I'm not sure what it is.

John Dehlin [04:02:20] You needed a lot of support. And that stake president did not, not by any fault of his own. He did not give you the support, and the church did not give you the support you needed at that time. I'm just gonna say it.

Matthew Shakespear [04:02:32] I think that's true. Yeah. So we drop her off of the mtc, we drive back the next day. That I let her know that I wanted to be divorced. My wife.

John Dehlin [04:02:47] Wait, what'd you say?

Matthew Shakespear [04:02:48] I let her know that I wanted to be divorced, and she immediately said, why? And I said, it's pretty obvious to you why? Because I want to be with Elizabeth.

John Dehlin [04:03:02] What? You said that to her? Did she have any idea?

Matthew Shakespear [04:03:08] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:03:08] So that's why it led up to this so quickly and abruptly. If you don't mind.

Matthew Shakespear [04:03:15] Go ahead.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:03:15] Because. Yeah, because it was important. It's one of these things that's, to this day, still heavy on my soul. Like, the way I feel inside about this is. I value one's intuition highly, you know, especially a woman. Like, I think that. I don't know, maybe you would argue it, but I think that women tend to be. We just. Our intuition is honed. Maybe it comes out of being a mother. I don't know. But we can hone it over our lives and sharpen that, and it can be keen. But just human beings, we're picking up on things, right. And what was happening at that time was that we were finally very clear, we understood and were open and transparent with each other about how we felt then. Not sure what we were going to do with it by any means, but at that point it had been aired, we were, like, being honest with each other. Like, this is how we feel. Well, his wife, simultaneously, she's been picking up on some vibes and has had questions. Right. And I'm not behind the scenes, so I don't know exactly, but I know enough that Matthew is just kind of basically convincing her that. I mean, I'm inclined to say things like, you're crazy, but that's how I feel because I've been in abusive relationships where when I was queuing in on things, I was made out to believe I was crazy. And then this person, to make their point, would hide my keys and hide my purse and do things. Things to just make that point, like, oh, you don't know anything. You're crazy. Like. Yeah. Wait, what?

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:03] Gas.

John Dehlin [04:05:03] Oh, right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:05:05] Gaslighting. Yes. So I was really worried that that was how she would be feeling.

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:14] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:05:14] And I would never.

John Dehlin [04:05:15] You were telling her over and over she had nothing to worry about.

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [04:05:19] Yeah. You probably believed it on some level.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:05:21] Well, yeah, I think he did at first. But eventually, once first, once we were.

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:25] But after we had. After we were clear with one another at that point, it became a deliberate deception. John and I think Elizabeth and I both

John Dehlin [04:05:39] feel

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:41] extreme regret. I mean, over having played with someone's intuition. Not played.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:05:52] Not played.

Matthew Shakespear [04:05:53] But definitely diminished and diminished someone's intuition by deception. I mean, she felt like something was going on that was of concern and she was absolutely right. Yet at every turn, I made it a point to say, no, you have nothing to worry about, and to discount someone's correct intuition. It's the biggest mind f you can do on someone. Okay. And that is, like, it's not okay.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:06:30] When she came to Talk to me. It was shortly after that. Now, I don't know exactly how much time, maybe you would have a better gauge on that, but she actually came to me, to my apartment, and we went on a walk. And that was the time. There was once before, but it. But at that time, it was still.

Matthew Shakespear [04:06:51] It was prior to asking for divorce.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:06:53] Yeah, but it was playing with my own. I'm playing with my own mind, like, trying to convince myself that I don't feel the way I feel about him. And, you know, anyway, so she had asked before, and I had said, no, I'm not. There's. I can't remember if she. She didn't explicitly ask what she asked when she came to my apartment. We went on a walk, and she explicitly asked me if I. I think she said, was I attracted to him? And I flat out said no. And at that point, I had already reconciled that I. We. We had already been open now at this point with how we feel. So at that point, that was a blatant lie. And it felt so wrong. That felt very wrong. And I could see very clearly that I was actually doing to someone something that to this day, I probably still suffer the consequences of. And we couldn't do that. We talked about it pretty quickly after that. I don't know what's going on here. I don't know what's going to go on here. I don't know what. But we can't do this. So we didn't. I mean, for a while there, I don't know how much time went by before your daughter went down to Utah for school and that drive occurred, but we kind of did this. Like, unsure. I don't. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Not sure. And I'm still literally one foot over here. Like, I just need to run. I need to get out of here. I need. Need to go. You need to do this. You need to make this right. Like, you need to make this work. And really, what ended up finally happening, I mean, at least for me, for where I was like, okay, is when he's sure that even if he were to invest everything into trying to make this work, there's no way it's going to work, a. Because this marriage is based on the religion. And every time I try to show up a little bit, he's been testing the waters, right? Like, trying to reveal pieces of how he feels and how, you know, they've spent 20 years having it this certain way, and it's just Kind of, you know, from my perspective, her personality type is not gonna bend, not gonna flex, not okay with this. And some people are just more flexible than others. And she was trying to flex. I mean, she was trying to embrace mindfulness. She was trying to do so many things that I think she was pushing herself outside of her own comfort zone to try because she was sensing something that you were certain that in order for you to be authentically who you are and to fully keep moving in this developmental, you know, stage of growing and developing, you can't unlearn what you've learned. Right. You can't unsee and unknow what you know. You can't just put the genie back in the bottle. And. And that's where he was, and that's what he was able to convey to me. I think where we were then, sort of symbiotic at that point. About like, okay, this is what's going to happen. But I didn't believe it was going to happen. I really didn't believe that he was going to. I didn't believe he was going to end his marriage. And I was ready to just move away. I mean, I was already looking at another life that I needed to start. It certainly wouldn't be the first time for me. You know, I can do this thing called starting over on my own. I've done it most of my life. So that's where I was. I was shocked. I was shocked when he did.

John Dehlin [04:10:43] When he.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:10:43] When he told his wife that he wanted a divorce and. And told her that he wanted a divorce. For me, that's still hard for me to say out loud because it feels incriminating. I feel like it makes me feel like a horrible person, that I'm the cause of something horrible. And that's very paradoxical because I feel like what we have is. It's certainly the most incredible thing I've ever known. I feel like together, we're amazing. But I know that there are people out there who would argue that and mean it, and that matters. They're hurt still.

Matthew Shakespear [04:11:30] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:36] So we. I mean, thank you for your vulnerability and your honesty and openness. This is just so powerful and beautiful. I'm just thinking of the couple. Thoughts come to mind is one is, we've got this idea that all marriages should last forever, but sometimes it's like, because marriage, families are eternal, and other times it's because that's what's good for the kids.

Matthew Shakespear [04:12:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:12:05] Other times it's just because, like, we just have that monogamous kind of Marriage forever mindset. And it's. It's obviously not true. Half of marriages. Well, you know, half of marriages all into divorce anyway. And. And then. Then is. Is marriage never ending really the goal? Because what if you're miserable in the marriage? What if you hate it in the marriage? Is that good for the kids? Is that good for each other? Is that just an arbitrary thing when reality. Sometimes the best thing possible could be for there to be a divorce and for people to find better fits. Or maybe you're a good fit the first 10, 20 years, and then maybe you're not a good fit next 10 or 20 years. Like. Like we have. It's. It's hard with my Mormon brain to. To accept the idea that not all marriages should last forever and that sometimes divorce is good. And I'm, by the way, I'm the product of a divorce where my dad's been married five times and my mom's been married three. And I've seen what divorce does. And so I come with this bias of, like, divorce bad because. Yeah. Infidelity bad and divorce bad, and families should stay together. And I've. I've. Margi and I've been through hard things, and we stuck it out, and I'm glad, you know, and.

Matthew Shakespear [04:13:17] And we.

John Dehlin [04:13:18] I got to the very same point. Yeah, you guys got to.

Matthew Shakespear [04:13:22] Right

John Dehlin [04:13:24] in. Somebody's almost scarily identical. And I'm like, I can't do that. I love Margi too much. I can't do that to Margi. And I. I made a different decision, and I'm super glad I did.

Matthew Shakespear [04:13:33] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [04:13:34] At the time, I'm like, wow, I'm making a huge mistake. But in my case, I'm glad I didn't. You know what I mean? Right. Super glad. But I know I could easily see why for other people, that would have been the wrong decision to stay in the marriage for everyone. For the kids, for the wife, for the husband, everybody. So, yeah. So there's that. Do you have any reaction. And then I have one other thing, but do you have any reactions to that? Well, making that decision must have been hard.

Navigating Divorce and Life After the Church

Matthew Shakespear [04:14:07] Oh, yeah, right. It was hard. It was excruciating. And, you know, I think with six kids. Yeah, with six kids.

John Dehlin [04:14:24] As a bishop.

Matthew Shakespear [04:14:25] As a bishop. And certainly not being blind to the fact that likely the fallout would be that I would be deemed called the sinner, the sinful one, the one that made the mistake. And be judged. Yeah. And be judged that way by my children, which in many respects has been true. It's happened Right. So it was a hard decision and it was hard. It was certainly just wanting to be realistic about what I felt was best, feeling like I needed to make sure that I felt the freedom to be myself moving forward, whatever direction that would be and feeling like the decision for me was to. I just didn't feel like there would be a path where it could work any longer. Given the fact that the faith construction, the construct, the unspoken contract of the marriage was based so primarily on the issues of faith that it was played such a part. I just didn't feel like I could be ever more than a second class citizen in the home, continuing forward. And I couldn't do that to myself. You know, I mean, she, my former wife, of course, wanted to try and do what we could to make it work, work. And I will be truthful by that point when she's like, whatever it takes, let's go to counseling, let's do this, let's do that. We did an online counseling program together. But to be truthful, my mind had been, was made up at that point and I didn't want our marriage to last any longer. That I had made my decision, hard as it would it was, but I had made. I just didn't feel like I had a clear way of being myself moving forward if I didn't leave that relationship and move out and move forward. Tough, tough. And I think, I think it was. I mean, it's the hardest thing. I mean, well, everything about it's hard. I'll just, I. You can't, you can't narrow it down to certain things. But my children, of course, mean so much to me. And maybe someday they'll watch this and maybe have a greater understanding, maybe have more. I mean, I guess I hope they have more compassion for my position and where I was. Most of them are not ready to hear that yet. Maybe they'll never will be. I don't know. That's hard. It's just hard. I am, I do feel this day. I mean, even with tears in my eyes right now thinking about those, those relationships that have been hurt, I do this day still feel like that decision I made was the best one. Despite all the hardships that come, came with it and are still coming with it. I'm grateful that I had the means to care for them economically, that a lot of. I recognize the fact that a lot of dads who maybe are in some kind of similar situation where the family economically is left destitute and really hurt financially. I feel like I'm. Well, I'm Grateful for the fact that I have the means to make sure that that was not a problem. You know, I mean, she didn't continue college after we got married, didn't have any professional experience. Twenty years down the road. Right now she's doesn't have a husband to, to bring the income in. Right. But thankfully she hasn't wanted for anything, I believe, at least in the economic sphere. But that's just a matter of fortune. I recognize that for a lot of people and maybe similar situations, whether it be a faith crisis that ends up in divorce, that economically it shatters both people, I mean both, you know, members of the marriage, it shatters their life in a financial way. So I'm grateful for that, you know, despite times maybe that I feel kind of angry about that too. But, but my kids have been cared for economically. They haven't wanted for anything. They've certainly, nor has my ex wife. So.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:20:55] Yeah, supportive, loving, kind, human being father.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:02] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:21:03] Involved that I've ever known.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:08] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:21:10] And my, my understanding is your, your ex wife is remarried and found.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:21:15] Righteous priesthood holder.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:16] Correct? That's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:21:18] He won't be a disappointment to her and they can go to the temple together.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:22] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:21:24] If somebody were to say you should have stayed for the kids, you should have ended this relationship.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:33] Right.

John Dehlin [04:21:33] Stuck it out with your wife, even if you would have been, you know, she said to you, I'll never stop believing Joseph Smith. She basically gave you the impression that you, you would always be a disappointment in her eyes in terms of an unworthy priesthood holder.

Matthew Shakespear [04:21:48] Right.

John Dehlin [04:21:48] And a disappointment that she wouldn't have her eternal husband to take her to the social kingdom. Like. That's right. That's the Mormon doctrine of the family that actually can break up families, even though it's, it's claiming to be.

Matthew Shakespear [04:22:01] To be. Yeah. The glue.

John Dehlin [04:22:03] Right. But yeah, you know, this sets you up to be the eternal disappointment. Her to be for sure. Sad.

Matthew Shakespear [04:22:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:22:12] But regardless of all that, if somebody were to say to you, no, the noble thing, the good thing, the best thing is to keep the family together, to end this relationship, it's the best thing for the kids. It's keeping the family together above all else, if not just for the kids, forever involved, that's the right decision, what do you say about that? You've already addressed it a little bit, but respond directly to that.

Matthew Shakespear [04:22:36] Well, that could be for some people, that's my, that's my answer. For some people it might be. I think that for me, I didn't feel like I could be A whole person occupying that chair of the unfaithful non believing spouse and all of what it would be entailed in that. But I certainly see that for some people the reverse may be true, that that would be okay. And I just don't know. All I can say is that at this point in my life, which the relationship I have now with Elizabeth, I still feel like it was the right decision. I think that despite the hardships that it might have been on my children and may continue to be for years, I hope that what comes of us being together and me being where I am and can be who I am fully, that I can engage with them as they grow through their life and be open to whatever direction their life comes. I mean, whatever comes in their life, whatever they choose to do in a way that I would have never been able to be otherwise. But that's just the hope. I don't know. I mean, they may feel estranged from me for ever, but I hope that whatever it is, I hope that they know that I care and I accept them wherever they are, whoever they are. And in fact, I think I'm better at that than I was before.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:24:52] Yeah, for sure.

Matthew Shakespear [04:24:59] That's, I guess, my best answer to that question.

John Dehlin [04:25:05] Mormonism teaches this idea of being selfless.

Matthew Shakespear [04:25:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:25:10] And that. But Mormonism would teach that your choice was selfish.

Matthew Shakespear [04:25:15] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:25:17] And I have my own thoughts about how that isn't necessarily helpful to anyone. Do you have thoughts about this idea of selfish versus selfless?

Matthew Shakespear [04:25:28] I recognize that I, my, what I chose to do could certainly be characterized as selfish according to the, you know, the environment and the doctrine of the church. But I also feel like we do everyone in this world a disservice when we don't allow them to show up authentically themselves. And not being open to change in people's lives and people's outlooks and people's beliefs. And when we ask people to be selfless in those contexts, we are asking them to deny a part of themselves that is real. I mean, it's the same. I mean, it's similar to look at someone who identifies as gay or lesbian or trans or whatever that spectrum may be to say that you need to be selfless and not feel the way you feel. I just, I. It doesn't feel right to me. It doesn't feel loving in the deepest sense of the word. Yeah, I guess that's probably what my thoughts are there,

John Dehlin [04:27:30] there. I'll just say, as a mental health professional, you hear about people that just kind of mysteriously end their lives yeah. You don't know why.

Matthew Shakespear [04:27:38] Right.

John Dehlin [04:27:39] Or you hear about high levels of prescription drug abuse in Utah amongst Mormons.

Matthew Shakespear [04:27:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:27:49] And you, you, you hear about very high levels of anxiety and depression and, and by the way, when anybody dies by suicide in, in Utah at the funeral, you'd never know it.

Matthew Shakespear [04:28:02] Right.

John Dehlin [04:28:02] Because they were faithful and they loved the Lord and oh, the Lord took them and.

Matthew Shakespear [04:28:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:28:06] You're never, you're never going to hear about that.

Matthew Shakespear [04:28:08] Right.

John Dehlin [04:28:09] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [04:28:09] For sure.

John Dehlin [04:28:10] And I think there are all sorts of people who get into a situation like the one you guys describe. Not out of selfishness, not just like whatever causes it. Causes it. Life, feelings, relationships, everything. And they don't choose the path of authenticity. They don't choose themselves.

Matthew Shakespear [04:28:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:28:37] And instead they, they become depressed, they become isolated, they try and pack it down more. Some self medicate through drugs or alcohol or other sorts of things and some even have suicidal ideation and, or end in their lives. Suicide. Right. By, by trying to be selfless.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:01] And I, I'm not, I'm not trying to say it's one or the other. I obviously feel like I was in a similar situation. I did what I felt was best and right for me at the time. And for me it was to take a different path.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:14] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:15] But I also don't think that was the right path for everybody. And if, if Margi had been less loving or less supportive or we hadn't been on the same page faith wise or, you know, we didn't have so much going for us.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:29] I very well would have taken it a different choice and it probably would have been the best thing. But that's, you know, we've all got to make that decision. But these framings of selfish and selfless.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:41] Can be deadly. And what good is a, a dad to a set of kids who ends up dying? Either literally dying or dying inside.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:53] Either way, how good is that father to their children then.

Matthew Shakespear [04:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:58] Or becomes nut learns how to numb through whatever ways we self medicate. I don't know that. Is that good for the wife? Is that good for the husband? Is that good for the kids? I just think these are important things to explore and it's, it's hard. I'll tell you why it's hard. It's hard because what marriage isn't hard?

Matthew Shakespear [04:30:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:30:17] And what husband or wife doesn't get 20 years into a marriage and say I kind of want out, like this isn't as exciting as it used to be. And whoa, look at that pretty young thing. Or look at that handsome, hot young thing or same age thing or older thing, who doesn't want that shiny new thing? And maybe sex will be better. Maybe we'll have more compatibility or just let me try something new. Like who doesn't reach that stage at some point in their marriage? Yeah, we all do.

Matthew Shakespear [04:30:47] Right.

John Dehlin [04:30:47] And so if the message is, Hey, 20 years in swap for something exciting and new. You know what I mean?

Matthew Shakespear [04:30:54] Right.

John Dehlin [04:30:54] If that becomes the message, well, then what? Marriage lasts.

Matthew Shakespear [04:30:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:30:59] You know what I'm saying? So this is. Do you guys have any reactions to that? Because that's complicated. Right?

Matthew Shakespear [04:31:04] Do you want to speak? I'm gonna go. Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:31:08] No. I mean, yes, it is complicated. It is complex. And human beings are complex. And our feelings, things change and our emotions change and our circumstances change. And, you know, one person's idea of commitment is another person's actual hell. And I just wish that we could just be more kind in general and honest. And I really do think that even though honesty is hard, honesty is the most kind thing to do. Because we could be honest and say, we all suffer. Whether we're married or we're single, whether we're straight or we're gay, whether we've been married 30 years or three years, we're all going to suffer. And we keep suffering. But if we keep growing and we keep developing and we keep learning, can't we. Can't we be kind enough to embrace the different ways that that might look? Can't we? Why? Why does it even have to be, you know, I don't know. Why does it have to look the way that we keep thinking it has to look? Why can't it be more diverse? I just feel like there's so many possibilities that are left out. One sister spoke to me when she learned of this, who I love dearly, and. And she shared basically that she's always been miserable in her marriage. And, you know, my brother is miserable in his marriage. But that's just the lot that we've were given. That's just what we signed up for. And we know that, you know, we've taken these covenants, we've made these vows, and that good stuff's going to come later.

Matthew Shakespear [04:33:01] Why?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:33:02] Why does it have to be later? Why? Why? Why is that better?

John Dehlin [04:33:07] And how sure are we it will come later?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:33:09] How do none of us know? Okay? We're. We're lying to ourselves and each other when we pretend that we know. I know this church is true. I know I'm going to go to. You've convinced yourself you've been convinced, but you don't really know. There isn't anybody on the face of this planet who's actually gone there and come back and can tell you, okay. It's a construction of our imagination and we keep feeding it to each other and it helps us feel better. But I don't think we have to keep doing that to feel better. I think that we could have so much richer, more dynamic lives as we continue to grow and develop and even including new faith and new relationships, that we just keep respecting that and being curious about it. And I know it's unfathomable right now to us because it's so far outside of our paradigm, but does that mean. I mean, just look back at development of. We didn't think we could run a marathon. We didn't think we could go to the moon. We didn't think we could. You know, whatever it is, we never think it can happen until we think outside of the box. We let that change. It doesn't have to be so hard. So bad.

Matthew Shakespear [04:34:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:34:25] Did you have a response to the question before?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:34:27] I.

John Dehlin [04:34:28] Well, I have some questions for Elizabeth.

Matthew Shakespear [04:34:31] Yeah. You know, so it's. It's really. It's a difficult, like, situation. I remember it kind of is reminiscent to me about, you know, conversation with. When my former wife had found a new man who was a priesthood holder, who was active member of the church, and she was wanting to move to Utah and take the kids to Utah, two states away. And I remember asking the kids what they thought about that. Said, because I. I want to know how you feel, because I'm inclined to fight and say no, because that's two states away, I'm your dad. I want to be closer. And. And I asked the question, that conversation with my kids of, like, so do you trust this new man more than me? And the hard answer that I was given was, yeah, we kind of do.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:35:55] A man they didn't even know, he was a stranger because he holds the

Matthew Shakespear [04:35:59] priesthood at that point in time, my former wife and him had been dating for three weeks.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:36:07] They didn't even know each other. John, is this sinking in, like, immediately? We gotta fill it in and make

Matthew Shakespear [04:36:15] it look right and good so that really just. I. I mean, I laugh, but I don't. I don't know what to say. Right. Because. How does that.

John Dehlin [04:36:33] You.

Matthew Shakespear [04:36:33] You want to trust someone because of a title that you don't know? I mean, he might be. He might be, but he might not be. And he certainly isn't your father who has been with you. Since the day you were born, who has cared for you and knows you. But you trust him more because he has a current title of elder and a temple recommend.

John Dehlin [04:37:09] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [04:37:15] You know, it's, it's complicated and for certainly I just, you know, I guess I want to just speak to the fact of the human condition is so difficult and complex and we all just try. So I guess one thing that I feel often is a desire to just be open and understanding of everyone's individual situation is unique and complex and difficult. And I can offer love and support and acceptance. That's about it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:38:12] Does that answer your question? I mean, because you're looking for an answer to the question of why do people chase happiness and push away suffering and it's never ending. Right? We can always be chasing the next good thing. Right? And that is actually the pursuit of happiness. That's what we're obsessed with or obsessed with happiness. And there is no answer to that except to accept so. Except to accept the fact that there is going to be misery. None of us are getting out of this alive and it's a scale of more or less well being. You can't, I can't import my sense of what that is into somebody else. But I have to be true and authentic to my scale, my sense of well being. He has to be true even. None of us lives in a bubble. All of our choices and decisions and our well being affects others and sadly some people are perfectly happy letting you suffer. In fact, that's what I was, that was what was brought to me as this came to light was like, well, of course we expect you to be miserable. I'm miserable. He should be miserable. Maybe he'll get lucky and after he dies all this stuff will be true and he'll go to the celestial kingdom and you know, but only if he's miserable and is willing to. We're all going to be miserable no matter what. To some extent it's just part of life. I don't know. I don't know. I guess it's circular for me. It's like we're chasing happiness. That's samsara in Buddhism. It's like you're constantly chasing. It's the cycle of passion, aggression and ignorance. You're in one of those states, you're either being passionate, you're being aggressive or you're being ignorant. You're trying to push away suffering and pull to you goodness what feels good and what looks good. But I don't know, nobody can answer what, what looks good is certainly not always what's good? You know, it's not. I don't know. I don't have the answer. I wish I did.

Matthew Shakespear [04:40:34] There's not one. If you had one, you could make a religion.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:40:37] I wish I did because life would be boring.

John Dehlin [04:40:41] Let me ask you, Elizabeth, as. As a kid who was in middle school when his parents got divorced, and I'll just say that my dad quickly remarried. I remember my thoughts and feelings towards my new stepmom. And more importantly, I remember because I was the youngest and somehow I really wanted to be the peacemaker and I loved my dad and I didn't want to see him unhappy. And so in some sense, because I was still living at home, he would, as he was going through all this hard stuff, he would. Sometimes I became his friend and he would talk to me about how hard things were and his problems with my mom and, and how he's feeling about how maybe some of my siblings were treating him so well. And it was a really complex, hard, probably inappropriate place for me to be as a kid.

Matthew Shakespear [04:41:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:41:29] Holding all that, definitely from my dad, but I felt, I felt for him and he. There was some church discipline and, you know, and. And I'm seeing all that and wanting him to be okay, not wanting him to get depressed and.

Matthew Shakespear [04:41:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:41:42] But what I can say on behalf of my, you know, family overall is how the person in your position was perceived, Elizabeth. Their homewrecker. They destroyed an eternal family. They're temptress or they're, you know, the

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:42:01] evil seductress straight from hell.

John Dehlin [04:42:03] All the, all the bad things and whether or not people are thinking or feeling that. In addition, you might be thinking or feeling that yourself, you know, in the back of your mind, you, like you might be questioning yourself, did I do something wrong? Did I do this? Am I my bad? Separate from what other people might be thinking. And that's, that's enough to tank a relationship right there. And it's also enough to tank your own happiness and, well, being. Living with the thoughts that may lead to guilt or shame. How. How is all that for you? And how do you process all of that? And I'm not making allegations. I'm just saying those. These are all. These are things, right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:42:43] Oh, yeah. Well, of course I'm aware of how I look in others eyes. Some others.

John Dehlin [04:42:51] And there's his former wife too, right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:42:53] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [04:42:54] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:42:54] Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, of course the narrative for many people is that I am the evil seductress straight from hell, you know, who probably sunk her talons into him and corrupted his mind and, you know, just basically satanic, like, right. Like, brought in, brought in evil, brought in, you know, cracked his faith. And I have no idea. I try really hard to not play the game of pretending I know what people think, you know, or pretending. So you never really know. But, yeah, it's safe to assume. And, of course, I know how his children feel. Feel all of those ways, probably.

Matthew Shakespear [04:43:46] I.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:43:48] On it. You know, honestly, I think this is part of why our relationship is so great. We talk about hard things, and I didn't make it easy for him, did I? I never do. Meaning, like, it wasn't just, like, an easy thing where it was like, oh, you're gonna leave your wife and kids for me? Yay, I'm the winner. No, it was like, what are you doing? And why? I pressed him. Why? Why? And I would give him scenarios like, maybe you should try this. What if. What if you do this, maybe she'll look differently to your eyes if you do this. Maybe you should. What about this? You know, we talked a lot. I'm not an easy person. I don't think so. I didn't just, like, bite, you know, it's not like he just, like, dangled this thing and.

John Dehlin [04:45:05] Because when I hear about the scenario and part, I have to be informed by, you know, my dad's second marriage lasted two years, and it was done. It blew up catastrophically.

Matthew Shakespear [04:45:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:13] And I've seen enough of others where somebody comes to me in this scenario, go, I've got some cynicism. I'm like, hey, exciting now. It feels alluring. Now. Wait a couple years. The excitement's gonna die off, and then you'll have to look back. Wherever you. Wherever you go, there you are. There you still be, carrying all your stuff with you.

Matthew Shakespear [04:45:31] Still got your own baggage that you take with you to the next one or three years.

John Dehlin [04:45:35] The thrill is gone. You guys are fighting. Maybe the marriage probably doesn't even. The relationship doesn't even survive, and you've blown up your family. I'm sure you guys thought about that, right?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:45:44] Of course. We actually probably just had that conversation maybe five days ago.

Matthew Shakespear [04:45:50] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:45:50] No, really, I'm not probably. Cynicism is one of the things I struggle with. One of those poisons I struggle with the most. But anything could happen. I am completely aware, I have no illusions that he and I are going to live happily ever after and that we are the winners. You know, we won this thing. We're real and very honest and completely aware that anything is possible. It's Just as possible that he could fall in love with the barista or somebody from Instagram or who knows what, you know, anything is possible. Or that I could fall in love with. You know, I have no idea. Can't even think of anyone. Anyway, somebody out there, right?

John Dehlin [04:46:32] Your guru, your yoga.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:46:33] Sure, yeah. There you go. So anything is possible. And I'm not unrealistic in that. And I think that that helps to be honest about that. We've gone through. There's been some. Okay, let's put it this way. If Satan is real, he has seriously designed the worst hell that could possibly occur to us after we got married. Like, he has come into our home and constructed. The most evil, diabolical thing has transpired in our home. And a weaker couple would have already been done. We. We would have disintegrated.

John Dehlin [04:47:18] Second marriages are hard.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:47:20] Yeah. Second marriages are hard.

John Dehlin [04:47:21] Second marriages. This is your third or third. Yeah. Because. Because second marriages fail at twice the rate of first marriages. It's not. First marriages don't have a 50 divorce rate. First marriages have like a 20. 20, 25 divorce rate. Yeah. It's second marriages and third marriages that have the super high divorce rates, and that brings down the average because you're. You're not just dealing with trying to get along. You're dealing with the angry ex, you're dealing with the divorce, the alimony. You're dealing with step kids, you're dealing with. With step being a step parent and all the extended family and financial. Now you're doubly financial stressed because of all the financial stresses. I mean, I'm preaching to the choir. But, like. Yeah, it's no honeymoon. A second marriage.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:48:07] No, it's.

Matthew Shakespear [04:48:08] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:48:09] In many respects, so cakewalk. Quite ugly. Yeah. Because there's so much to deal with. But, you know, we like to go to the ugly, dark places, and the shadow, you know, is where you're going to find the really rich compost. And we're aware of that. We go there. And so I feel like part of what you were asking me was, do I beat myself up? You know, how much of that narrative. Well, my dad, so he was pretty stoic after my mom divorced him. He wouldn't ever date. I will never. And he meant it. He never dated. There was a woman that came up, beautiful woman. Like, more beautiful than my mother in many ways. Like, she. In terms of what's on the outside, she was also beautiful on the inside. She loved my dad and was so happy when she found out, you know, my mom had left him. She Came out and visited. I really liked this woman. My dad. No, no, I'm married to your mom forever. We were sealed in the temple. Eternity. And the. The back mess actually wasn't back. It was. I was explicitly taught by my father that I was evil by virtue of the fact that I was female. I'm an evil being.

John Dehlin [04:49:20] You were?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:49:21] Oh, yes. And so, I mean, she's.

Matthew Shakespear [04:49:25] Well, she kind of alluded to the fact that the idea behind Eve. Right. So Eve being the one who.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:49:31] There were many long talks on drives in particular where, you know, he would lecture to me about the fact that he felt sorry for me. I mean, he had seven boys and two girls, and I was the younger of the two girls and my older sister had already gotten pregnant at 16. And I don't know. And his perspective ruined this young man's life. I don't know. But anyway, so, yeah, in the back of my mind, there is always this evil narrative playing that I am evil. I am a bad person. Of course I'm going to do bad things. I'm a horrible person. You know, But I've come a long way in my growth and development. I've gone through a lot of counseling and therapy. And actually, honestly, Buddhism has done the most good for me. Because you accept all of the dark. In fact, it only makes things worse to try to hide from it in any way. You know, you can't hide from it. You never can. It's going to come out. So I've reconciled that. I know that I'm not an evil person. Although I do believe that you are just as evil as I am.

John Dehlin [04:50:49] Hey, wait a minute.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:50:50] He is just as. Because you are just as good. What I mean by that is that every single human being. Sorry, I know that sounded really kind of. Of intense and harsh and joking, but that's kind of the shame that gets that this comes from religion is this farce that, like, I'm all good or you meet people that I'm all good. I'm going to be good. If I do this and I do that and I'm good. Good, good, good. You're just as bad inside. Any of us can do anything. We have to come to terms with that. I mean, it's just like child molesters or people, people that rape. They're never all bad, evil people. It's usually someone you trust. You know, the people who molest the child in your family. It's somebody you love.

John Dehlin [04:51:38] Grandpa. It's exactly Bill.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:51:40] They're not all bad. There's nobody.

John Dehlin [04:51:43] It is usually the man.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:51:44] It is. Well, indeed, that is a fact.

John Dehlin [04:51:46] Which is ironic that you were kind of taught that all women are evil because it's usually the man who's the child molester.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:51:52] Right. And. But, you know, I guess my dad's framework would have said something like, you know, he's. He's only doing that because he's so stressed out, because of all of the feminists in the world who've gone out and made men have to, you know, work extra hard to try to. And while you're out doing this and we've all. We've just made life so difficult for everybody. Exactly. We asked for it ultimately, always. Right. So, yeah, I mean, of course, you know, I think I deal maybe more than other people, but I feel like I'm pretty well adjusted now. I don't. What I'm trying to say is there's that. That ugly, dark voice, you know, in my head, that's like, you've done bad things, you know, you don't deserve to be happy. You're a horrible person. You're a home wrecker, your.

Matthew Shakespear [04:52:44] Whatever.

John Dehlin [04:52:46] And then where do you. How do you resolve that? Where do you come down in your mind?

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:52:49] Oh, I'm very practical and realistic. I know I'm not. These are choices and decisions. I don't live in a bubble any more than he lives in a bubble or anyone else. You know, we're all doing things and making choices, and there's so many scenarios that if I can just. This is hard because I want to be careful. I don't want to hurt people's feelings. But he didn't make this decision on his own. I didn't come in and ruin his marriage. Do you believe that I could have, like. No, of course not. This is a complex thing that was laid down long before I ever came into the picture. Did I perhaps help Matthew realize that he actually might deserve to not just be the manager of everybody else's emotions, to not just always be working his magic to make everybody else feel happy and put his. Yeah. And if. And if. If we pin it all on that, then this is all my fault, and I'm willing to live with that.

John Dehlin [04:54:02] I'm willing to sound sorry for that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:54:05] No, because he's an adult. He's a man who is a whole person and can make his own choices, and I'm making my choices, and we're together, and I think we're doing good things in the world. This is one of those weird things because you're used to measuring your good on how many I don't know, people you served, how much you paid in tithing, how many. You know, again, it's the paradigm, you know, your boxes that you're checking. Yeah, but the truth is, the people who do the most good in the world are the people who are waking up, the people who are taking the time to be honest with themselves, to really, truly integrate. Whether your life has been a difficult mess or whether it's been easy to really figure out who you are now. You know, everybody's developing, but not everybody's developing. Does that make sense? Like, we're all growing older, but not everybody is going through the stages of development. In fact, I think it is kind of normal for people to believe that stages of development ended once you hit, like, you know, early young adult. Right. But that's not true. And in fact, our world would be so much further along probably if we weren't so busy being stupid, dumbing ourselves down with ancient myths, you know, and continuing to just do the same thing over and over again the same way. It's not working. Right. Like,

Matthew Shakespear [04:55:44] yeah, I think one thing that goes to this point, in a way, but there was a period of time, you know, as. As this, during this phase of. Of having made the decision of divorcing my wife. But then how is it that we publicly come out about our relationship? Because at that point, it wasn't known publicly. I mean, it's not like we had been spotted around town, you know, the day.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:56:20] Although afterward, many people wanted to believe they had.

John Dehlin [04:56:23] Yeah, right.

Matthew Shakespear [04:56:25] So. But. So it's not like we were, you know, spotted at the bar or at the dance club or whatever together. So how. So one of the options we. We, I guess, contemplated was, well, what I can do is I can ask to. I can get divorced and maybe we'll take up a public relationship in about a year and, you know, pretend as. Act as if it just came out of nowhere. Like we could tell the line that, you know, the reason I ask to be divorced is more about an issue of faith and faith crisis.

John Dehlin [04:57:20] Which is partially true.

Matthew Shakespear [04:57:21] Which is partially true. Absolutely. Okay. There's the hook, right, John? That's the hook. Yay.

John Dehlin [04:57:28] We're fishing. Right?

Matthew Shakespear [04:57:31] So I can hook you on that.

John Dehlin [04:57:33] The half truth.

Matthew Shakespear [04:57:34] The half truth.

John Dehlin [04:57:35] Yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [04:57:35] Right. But. But there was a conversation we had on the phone as we thought about this. Well, okay, so in a year's time, we take up a relationship publicly, right? No, because that's the same kind of deception that we are running away from.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:58:05] Even if we weren't to be Having a relationship, that was part of the discussion too. I mean, even if. So even if. Well, I mean, at least I remember too. Even if I were to go away and come back in a year and see what it's like now, it's still a deception because we already know we're in love with each other, right? We already know we're in love with each other. And I don't know, I mean, we really did struggle and try. We tried to make the most right decision. We. We tried to run scenarios not to be deceitful as much as to try to be honest and real, but also respectful of other people's feelings. And then back to the self check of like, well, that's an easy one because it feels really good. Because it's easier. Well, then maybe that's not the right one because that's kind of a cue for me, like, is if it's easy and feeling good, it's probably not the most true one. You know, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna navigate this?

Matthew Shakespear [04:59:07] Yeah. So.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:59:08] And your kids, we considered that.

Matthew Shakespear [04:59:10] Yeah, right. So thinking, well, you know, likely the kids would of course see. At least some of them would likely see through that deception option of like, oh, there was no relationship until a year after we were divorced.

Elizabeth Shakespear [04:59:23] And isn't that convenient?

Matthew Shakespear [04:59:26] I guess what I spring that up just because again, As hard as that, right. What that was in like immediately owning up to the fact of the relationship. God is hard. Really hard. Maybe akin to saying we had three versions of the first vision, but we kept. We only used one. Maybe akin to the fact that a long time ago we knew that the book of Abraham wasn't a translation, but we wanted that to be kept back. Maybe akin. Just so many things like that.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:00:14] It was emergent. We were emerging, Right.

Matthew Shakespear [05:00:17] So. Right. So I guess it was part of a realization of not wanting to engage in the same kind of deception that

John Dehlin [05:00:29] we

Matthew Shakespear [05:00:31] disliked so much. But it was hard.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:00:40] I hope that the listeners out there who are listening to this and wanting to, like, hit us in the head, you know, between the eyes, in the guts, in the heart, whatever. I hope that everybody will just take a moment to just consider the myriad ways in their own lives they lie to themselves a little bit here. I'm just gonna change this story a little bit this way. And it is true. It is true now. Because now I've made it true, right? Like, now I've stepped that direction and I'm living that life just like Joseph did, you know, just like he did with polygamy. Just like he did with the first vision. Just like, whatever. That's what's so tricky about these kinds of things. I can be guilty of trying to oversimplify things and make them black or white, but it is really complex and it is gray and we are all just trying to get by. We are all trying to make sense of difficult things in life. And even when we don't mean to, we can lie to ourselves. I mean, people do it with food, right? People do it with whatever it was their intention, with your. Your home teaching or whatever. There's so many ways we're just lying. We lie and lie and lie and lie. I guess that's my way of saying, like, people out there who I know are being really harsh toward us right now because we're being vulnerable and honest. Like, please take a moment to take a look at yourself. You know, please take a moment to really, you know, spend. Spend one day maybe catching yourself as you deceive yourself. Like you set a goal, maybe, and then you cheat yourself out of it and make an excuse. You know, those are the minor ones. And then do it for a week, do it for a month, do it for a year. Make it a practice in your life. And we will all be more compassionate. I mean, we're just. I don't know.

Church Discipline, Moving Forward, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [05:02:58] 1. Just micro question before we start wrapping up. Was there ever church discipline? Is there anything you want to talk about that. Was there ever church discipline for you or you?

Matthew Shakespear [05:03:09] Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [05:03:11] And you don't have to answer if you don't want.

Matthew Shakespear [05:03:12] No, no, that's fine. And I'm totally comfortable answering that question. So for me, I'll speak for me. No, there was not. Let's see, it was probably about a year ago that I was the stake president and the bishop, the now new bishop of the ward, reached out to me.

John Dehlin [05:03:35] Wait, how do they handle your release?

Matthew Shakespear [05:03:37] Oh, yeah. Okay. So if you want to talk about that. Yeah, so this is really interesting and it is good to talk about because, you know, I'd met with them and I told them about my concerns about faith and how I was feeling and believing. And that was kind of, you know, you gotta. You gotta gain it back. You gotta get it back. Work hard, Bishop. You can do this. So I don't know how many weeks went by. Maybe, maybe three or four, maybe somewhere around there. And then I tell my wife that I wanted to get divorced. And it was. So then the following day, I sent him an email and told him, hey, I want to give you a heads up that I told Stephanie, I wanted to be divorced, and. And she, I think, is planning or wanting to meet with you and visit with you, but I wanted to give you a heads up as to what's going on. And I said, so likely because of that, you will now want to release me.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:04:53] Oh, no, no. It needs to be his decision. It's his decision.

John Dehlin [05:04:57] I get it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:04:58] You're forcing his hand, and that's not the way it works, Brother.

Matthew Shakespear [05:05:02] Well, the response was, thanks for the heads up. I appreciate you letting me know. And yes, we will move forward with finding someone to replace you as bishop, but it will take us a few weeks, and it does. I mean, they have to submit to submit a name to the Office of the First Presidency in Salt Lake City. They go kind of through all the confidential records that may exist for that individual to make sure that there's not any. Right. And so they go through that vetting process, and then they respond and say, yes, President so and so you can extend the call to Brother so and so to be the next bishop. So I think that was like four weeks or so. All the while, I'm going to meetings. I'm still conducting. I was like, this is the weirdest kind of dissociated experience of my life. Like, here I am. It's still expected that I'm, you know, conducting meetings and all these things, pretending.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:06:08] There it was. It was weird, especially from my perspective, too. I was like.

Matthew Shakespear [05:06:13] It was tough.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:06:14] I struggle to know what is real sometimes. Like, I feel like my feet in reality are not very grounded. And that felt very strange. Like, what is real? What's. What's actually happening here? Like, why is everybody pretending? Everybody's just pretending. They would. I wasn't really. I wasn't going to church anymore, but they would sit next to each other and sit in. I mean, and then you were still having people come over to the house and you were. It was. That's so weird to me. I mean, there were. I mean, it was even speculated on your end and her end that, well, maybe we'll just keep doing this until the oldest has graduated from high school. Maybe we'll just. Let's just. Can we just pretend for a while longer? Am I wrong?

Matthew Shakespear [05:07:08] No, no, no, you're right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:07:09] So there's this bizarre. And I don't know if that's like a Mormon culture thing, a human thing,

John Dehlin [05:07:18] but it's very Mormon, too.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:07:20] Yeah. I don't know. I just never faked very well. Maybe I grew up with cruel people and pretend. My family can be pretty brutal.

Matthew Shakespear [05:07:33] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:07:34] Brutally honest.

Matthew Shakespear [05:07:35] Pretty much know where they stand, though. That's. That's also refreshing. Straight ups. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:07:41] So you were four weeks faking it.

Matthew Shakespear [05:07:43] Yeah. So. And then. Then I was released to the shock of many, many, many people. And it was kind of, you know, the news of the divorce traveled a little slower than that, but it traveled around. But anyway, to fast forward. So, of course, it was a very difficult thing in every way.

John Dehlin [05:08:12] Board members, probably. Gossip.

Matthew Shakespear [05:08:14] Ward members. Yeah, definitely. So a couple of ward members reached out to me through email and said, you know, I'm really sad to hear this is going on. I think you should reconsider. I think you should. You can do this again, Bishop. You can reignite the flame of your relationship. You know, everybody. You know, they were well intended in trying to encourage, you know, and I would respond just simply and say, thanks for reaching out. And I certainly acknowledge that it was hard and a shock for so many people. There were some people, particularly sisters, who I had helped a lot, who were very supportive and accepted that decision in a very graceful way, the news of it all. And that was very kind of them. But by and large, it was something that most of the ward members didn't know how to deal with. And so they stayed quiet.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:09:37] I was angry about that, and I was vociferous. You know, I guess, as per. Normal for me, Matthew tends to be more graceful and quiet. It was pretty disgusting to me that people weren't. Where's the support? Like, if these people know he's having a faith crisis and they have. Like, why aren't they reaching out to him? Why? There was one man. Sorry, our daughter's at the. Daughter is at the hotel. So we promised. Okay, we would check anyway. I felt confused, too, by. Once again, there's this lack of consistency and integrity in my eyes that I'm seeing. I'm seeing that we claim that we reach out to those in need, but not the ones that we don't like their choices. We don't reach out to them. We don't offer support to a brother, despite the fact that he has just given up so much in terms of what he gave from a place of real love and care. But now that we don't like the choice that you're making, we've got nothing but scorn for you. We've got nothing but disgrace. So, yeah, there's one of the eight worldly dharmas. You're either, it's either fame and everyone loves you, or it's disgrace and everyone hates you. So I was sad by that. But again, that's just another mark in this. In. That's just another reason that it's easy to fall away from the church. I mean, I canceled my membership. I don't know how long ago it was.

Matthew Shakespear [05:11:34] Well, it was very. It was that summer.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:11:38] I mean, that's just me. I act like I'm in and I'm out. I'm in. And this is like, there's. I would. The minute I was learning about all of the fake and all of the lies and all of the. Life is too short, you know, for that. Like, we gotta be real and this is not real.

Matthew Shakespear [05:11:56] Yeah. I think that was. So. It'd be fall of 20.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:12:00] So I canceled my membership.

Matthew Shakespear [05:12:03] And you know, fall of 2019, when you send in through quit Mormon. She did the.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:12:10] By the way, do you know how the genealogy, how they. You know, how you go online and you can see your family and it'll show when you were baptized and when you were. They don't ever show when you're excommunicated or when you're. No, when you've asked for your records to be.

John Dehlin [05:12:26] You know, they leave that out immediately.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:12:29] We need to fix that. That needs to be fixed like that. So.

Matthew Shakespear [05:12:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:12:35] Were you excommunicated in scandal?

Matthew Shakespear [05:12:37] No. No, it was pretty silent. There were several times. It was about a year ago that the stake president reached out to me. I was kind of suspicious as to maybe they were wanting to pursue something. I didn't really respond in a timely manner. They asked to meet.

John Dehlin [05:12:58] I wonder why they didn't just immediately convene a disciplinary council. Immediately.

Matthew Shakespear [05:13:04] They asked me if I had. If I had committed adultery. And I said no.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:13:09] Oh, yeah, I think so.

Matthew Shakespear [05:13:10] That may be just the reason why.

John Dehlin [05:13:12] Because you hadn't or. Well, that's what you. Okay.

Matthew Shakespear [05:13:17] Yeah, that's what I said to them.

John Dehlin [05:13:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [05:13:22] So I think that's probably the reason why. I mean. And then. So they. About a year ago, they reached out and I kind of just blew them off. I got an email that said, you know, from the stake president that said, hey, I just, you know, wanted to check in and see how things are going. And I, you know, this Covid was now raging, right. And I said, well, I appreciate you reaching out. And I, you know, I'm doing fine. And yeah, I wasn't able to meet with you when you had hoped because I was busy with work and didn't feel like taking the time. And so that's kind of where that went. Actually, just last month, I sent in my Resignation letter. So we are officially no longer in a mixed faith marriage. And that felt good in the sense of removing the ambiguity. Right. Because there was ambiguity that existed in are you, Are you not? You know, so I felt like it was the right time to remove that ambiguity and to make a definite decision and statement. I took my time. I mean, that's kind of the funny thing about Elizabeth. The difference between her and I, she moves very quickly and I'm kind of a very slower and more deliberate with things like that. Plus, it was different for me too, having kind of a multi generational kind of cultural experience versus hers. And so there was maybe more to process and come to peace with. And I felt like it was just the right time. It's still even like, you know, letter comes, I got the response saying it'd been processed. Wow. You know, I mean, when it's official, it's like even another moment of. That's just a moment of emotion.

John Dehlin [05:15:36] Right.

Matthew Shakespear [05:15:37] A flood of, I don't know, just

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:15:43] had a moment of wondering. Like it's just another one of those constructs. Right. Like nothing's changed. John didn't change the moment of the excommunication. You're still you. Right. And the weird part about it is if nobody else knows.

Matthew Shakespear [05:16:05] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:16:06] Then.

John Dehlin [05:16:06] Right.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:16:07] Then what difference? And yeah, these are those, those things that are really weird about life.

Matthew Shakespear [05:16:15] Yeah. But I think it, I think it kind of speaks to, to like that whole culturally, my programming actually feels like there's an official kind of separation from my extended family.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:16:29] Yeah, well, right, I understand.

Matthew Shakespear [05:16:31] Yeah. So again, I feel at peace with that. And I wrote just a short. Well, a short. Right. Everybody writes that short letter. But I did want to explain a few things. It was two pages. I included it with the letter of resignation that I sent to the bishop and to the stake President at the same time. I kind of, you know, basically used the same format that Quit Mormon uses. I had all the information and I said, you know, please, I respectfully, you know, request that you process this immediately and don't and waive the 30 day period, waiting period. And that was processed without any, you know, the bishop let me know he got the letter and it was, it was processed very quickly. I mean, I sent the letter in like the second week of.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:17:19] I think it was faster than QuitMormon.org yeah.

Matthew Shakespear [05:17:21] In fact, it was because you received the reply the first week of February. It was one month from the time I sent it to the bishop and stake president. But my point was that, oh, the letter, the purpose behind the letter was to really, I wanted the data to be tracked. Meaning, like, these are my reasons why if it's being tracked somewhere, I want, I want you as a church to be better. And really, in a way, it's my own kind of way of a protest to a degree. Right. It's part of the story is wanting to not just disappear, let the record stay there, but to kind of let my desires known and the reasons be known so that maybe, maybe, just maybe, it will be thrown into a spreadsheet and maybe something somewhere will be improved. Because I have five of my children are still at this point fully engaged in the church. So oldest one has come home from a full time, you know, did the 18 months as a missionary, a sister missionary number two is serving right now. And at this point, really only my oldest son is not participating in church. So I hope in some way that maybe some of the information that I shared improves the culture, improves the, the policies that I find hurtful.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:19:22] You probably doubt that, don't you?

John Dehlin [05:19:24] What?

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:19:25] You probably doubt that, that it will improve that. Well, I don't know. I guess the reason I think that you might doubt that is because you, you spend so much time with people who do so much trying to change the church from the inside, from the outside, from the upside, downside, backside. People are trying to make changes and, and the church actually has been making some changes, but it's just, I guess. Yeah. So I was assuming, sorry, that you might be doubtful that his letter would make an ounce of difference, but somebody read it. Somebody read it. And so maybe in that person it made a difference and maybe it didn't.

Matthew Shakespear [05:20:03] Yeah.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:20:04] Maybe it didn't phase them and they just thought, oh, another sinner down. Yeah, another one bites the dust.

John Dehlin [05:20:09] No, every, every drop of rain adds to the weight and, and you never know what the tipping point is. But certainly this interview, in addition to whatever your letter did, will almost certainly make a difference. And let's just face it, I care a lot less about what changes the church makes. I care a lot more about listeners who are listening whose lives might be improved by hearing this story. And that is a guarantee. That's not speculative. It's a guarantee this interview is going to change lives. That's a guarantee. That's all that really matters to me.

Matthew Shakespear [05:20:45] Yeah. I mean, right.

John Dehlin [05:20:47] If the church changes bonus icing.

Matthew Shakespear [05:20:49] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [05:20:50] But that's not the cake.

Matthew Shakespear [05:20:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:20:51] Cake is changing the lives of the listeners, viewers who are watching.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:20:55] I really like that. That's a good way to look at it. Can we frame this whole thing and that be like, as in on a good note?

Matthew Shakespear [05:21:04] Like, because we're all meaning making effect,

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:21:10] spinning it, and I like it.

John Dehlin [05:21:13] Okay, so this has been amazing. If it's okay, is there anything else, like, really big in your story that you want to make sure and share before I ask you, like, if you. A closing question or two?

Matthew Shakespear [05:21:37] No, I don't think so. I mean, I think we've done a pretty good job of sharing the important things, and I certainly hope that it does make a difference in people's lives who might be in turmoil or who might be really wrestling with similar issues. It's just my experience, and maybe it'll help. I mean, I really. And certainly we came here because we feel like it will help. Let's, you know, I. I came here because of that. I came here because I feel like there is a real value in story, in being truthful and sharing personal experiences. It's a format that I found so

John Dehlin [05:22:38] valuable

Matthew Shakespear [05:22:42] in my experience, and we'll continue to find valuable. And I think it's the same for other people.

John Dehlin [05:22:51] You mean hearing other people's stories?

Matthew Shakespear [05:22:53] Hearing other people's stories, it helps us

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:22:55] not feel like we're alone. I mean, honestly, a minute ago when you referenced that this is going to help somebody, I was feeling a little doubtful and cynical, and I was mostly thinking about all the people that are going to hear it. And, you know, like, especially people if anybody we know, I don't know who we know that would listen to Mormon stories, like in the church that's active. But there would be a million reasons for them to double down right in their faith and see us as, you know, just horrible sinners. Right. But the bigger truth, the one that I'm going to choose to see, is the one that you're. You just mentioned and the one that Pemachodren, my biggest teacher, has shared repeatedly. In fact, there's an entire practice called Tonglen practice centered around it. But it's like where you realize when you start feeling like I am the worst person or this situation that I'm experiencing is the worst situation, you just need to pause, take a moment and think about the fact that right now there are so many. Okay, there's at least one. There's so many people, though, in the world that are experiencing the same pain you're experiencing. Their storyline might be a little bit different, but the pain and the suffering that they are feeling is just like yours. You're not alone, not in your suffering and not in your joy. So I hope that that's something that somebody can feel not so alone. And there's a way. A next page.

Matthew Shakespear [05:24:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:24:35] That is literally why we do what we do. And that's why we're 15, 16 years into Mormon stories. And I'm as excited as I've ever been because we've got tens of thousands of active listeners and literally 9 million downloads and views each year.

Matthew Shakespear [05:24:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:24:58] Millions and millions and millions of listening and viewing hours hunt tens or even hundreds of millions of listening and viewing hours per year because these stories are reaching so many people. So to close, I want to just. I want to say to Matthew, if. If it turns out that your kids end up watching this all the way through someday, is there anything you want to say to them since they're watching?

Messages to Children, Listeners, and Closing Statements

Matthew Shakespear [05:25:49] Well, I think one will probably watch this within a few weeks, but to all of them, I hope that as you have watched what we have shared, That you recognize the complexity of human life and that you know that I care deeply about you and you being able to pursue a path that you find joy. And I will be your biggest cheerleader and supporter in wherever that path takes you. And that I have. Maybe at times you might have felt like I abandoned you or you wondered where your old dad went to, But I'm still here. I'm still me. And I still and have always loved you. And that I hope you understand me better because of this interview. And I suppose that's what I would like you to know. And if you watch it, when you watch it, call me, because I always love to hear from you. So.

John Dehlin [05:28:22] Thank you.

Matthew Shakespear [05:28:23] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [05:28:24] Okay, so both of you get closing statements. So, Elizabeth, you want to make any closing statements just to listeners, to people struggling, to single moms, to your own kids, to haters, to lovers.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:28:38] Final statement, really keep learning. Keep. Keep seeking and keep growing. And don't be afraid for me. My. My love language is books. It's what I always give people. It's what I. It's my way of coping with difficult world. It's nonfiction. I read. Not. Not fiction, but even Glennon Doyle's most recent book, Untamed. Oh, man, read Untamed. You know, especially women out there who. But Pema Chodron is my favorite teacher. And I'll recommend again, Tonglen Practice and her book called Start where youe Are, A Guide to Compassion, a guide to Compassionate living. I really think that this would be a helpful thing for Mormons who they're used to serving, they're used to doing and going, and, you know, What I mean, and this such a powerful transformative. Okay. People that have undealt with trauma. I don't recommend it. So I'm just going to say that up front you need help with your healing of trauma. Tonglen meditation is where you breathe in the pain. It's the antithesis of what most people teach today. For meditation, you actually breathe in the dark, heavy and difficult. And you do this as a good thing for all beings everywhere that are suffering. You can transform it. And on the out breath, what you send out is the love and the light and the goodness and the healing. And when you practice this, you realize that you're making a difference. You can see a homeless person on the street and don't close your eyes if you're driving, but you can just breathe in the suffering that you can see that person is feeling and you can breathe out. So Tonglen is much more complicated and in depth than that. But there's so all of the books, Thich Nhat Hanh, I highly recommend the Living Buddha, Living Christ for faithful people who want to remain active in the church. But also, you know, I guess it was Mother Teresa that would say, you know, expand your circle of compassion, your circle of your. Your family needs to include more. It needs to be bigger. And this is a really great way to do that. And when things fall apart. Oh, this is like. I mean this is my Bible. I've probably read it five times and listened to it on audible multiple times because it is so rich with wisdom that you can apply to your life. Like this world is filled with suffering and there's no escape from that. So you might as well learn real skills for. So those are my well. And the wisdom of no escape. Again, Pemachodron. Just, just so much wisdom here. It's the path of loving kindness. And can I recommend that people please look into the King Follet sermon if they're wanting to remain, you know, active in the church and really grow to understand what they're founding prophet, where he was going. That might even take you into transhumanism. It might take you into quantum physics. You might be blown away with the possibilities of where Mormonism can go next. There's just so much hope out there in terms of like goodness and growth and possibility. So I guess that's. Those are my heartfelt hopes and desires for the people out there. Forgive yourself.

John Dehlin [05:32:13] I love it.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:32:14] I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ.

Matthew Shakespear [05:32:17] Amen.

John Dehlin [05:32:20] And Matthew, your comments are so beautiful. Any final closing thoughts?

Matthew Shakespear [05:32:26] I guess I would say to anyone who is in this space, whether it's.

John Dehlin [05:32:33] And

Matthew Shakespear [05:32:35] I can have acceptance and love for everyone who in their path that they choose to pursue from the one who is devout and orthodox in their views to someone who is nuanced. It's kind of reminiscent in a way of Greg Prince is like. It works for me. Right. I guess for people who have struggled through these questions and have come to different conclusions, that's certainly understandable and normal and great that we can all come to different conclusions given same sets of data. But I would say as an encouragement to those who are trying to navigate and know where they go to take time to keep what is working for you right now, keep it alive and keep it vibrant until it no longer works for you and be willing to let that bird go and fly off and go somewhere else. And to also be mindful as you build a different way of being that you don't just replace in a way like for like meaning that you don't just replace your busyness when you had a calling in the church or with another cause that will create the same amount of busyness to mask the work that maybe you need to do or the pain that maybe you feel. Don't let it be the coping, the new coping mechanism. Certainly a believer in the ability of professional counselors to help with whatever the. The things you come away with that are. That are a struggle.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:34:59] But even they can give really bad

Matthew Shakespear [05:35:01] advice and even sometimes they will possibly they could potentially lead you astray. So. But, but follow our intuition. Follow your intuition and to ask for advice and ideas, but always come back to you where you are. Don't let your authority go somewhere else. Hold on to what authority you have as a human being and do your best with it and know that you'll make mistakes, but you can forgive yourself along the way for that. You'll learn something and so and, and be kind and loving and find the best, do the best you can. And it's not going to be the magic answer either. But I think you'll find meaning and I think you will find a life worth living as you do that you

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:36:22] think it's better to have more questions that can't be answered than to have answers that you can't that can't be questioned.

Matthew Shakespear [05:36:29] Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Was it Tag Mark? Yeah, Max Tag Mark. So, absolutely so be kind, be loving especially toward yourself. And find a way to find the beauty in every moment. Don't be looking for next week or next year or the eternity to come, the next life, but be, be right here and find that joy. It's in that letter that I wrote when I gave the data for why I was leaving. It was a matter of what, I don't know. I mean, my life, in my life, I'm happy now. But I'm also subject to the same vicissitudes of life that every human being is. And so it may fall apart at times and be put back together again. But what I can do is I can know how I want to approach each moment. Being in the moment now. And as I string one moment after another after another together, I can put a life that's worth living together. But only in the moment now

John Dehlin [05:38:05] will

Matthew Shakespear [05:38:06] I be able to make a difference. I love you, everyone. And that is all.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:38:24] Yeah. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [05:38:28] Well, on behalf of my listeners and myself, thank you, guys. What a beautiful, powerful story. This is one of my favorites. And that's after 1400 hours.

Matthew Shakespear [05:38:39] Oh, that's a incredible compliment. Thank you.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:38:43] Say that to everyone.

John Dehlin [05:38:44] I don't, but it's true. So I'm glad we did this.

Matthew Shakespear [05:38:49] I am, too.

John Dehlin [05:38:50] Thanks, guys.

Matthew Shakespear [05:38:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:38:54] Stay in touch.

Matthew Shakespear [05:38:55] Definitely hang in there.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:38:56] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:38:57] And listeners, thanks for your support. If you support us. Thank you. If you don't. Mormor stories.org donate Become a monthly donor. Share this everywhere. Give us your feedback. Most importantly, just be good to each other. Love each other. Give us your feedback. Stay in touch. Find the joy.

Matthew Shakespear [05:39:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:39:16] Love each other.

Matthew Shakespear [05:39:17] Yes, for sure.

John Dehlin [05:39:19] Take care. And again, thanks, guys. Travel safely and thank you. Stay in touch.

Elizabeth Shakespear [05:39:25] Thanks. Thanks, John.

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