Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1671

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It's September 19, 2022 and we are so excited to have as special guest, recurring occasional co host, Samantha Shelley back in the house. Samantha, hello. Welcome.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:17] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Those of you who don't know Samantha and her bestie, one of her besties, Tanner Gilliland, came on Mormon Stories, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago and did an episode called Losing Mormon Millennial that is one of the most popular Mormon Stories episodes of all time. It's what got Tyler Glenn of Neon Trees to listen to Mormon Stories for the first time.

Samantha Shelley [00:00:39] You love saying that.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Samantha has been on Mormon Stories several times since then. She is the co host of Zelf on the Shelf YouTube channel and Instagram channel and TikTok channel with Tanner. She's also a life coach and is super wise. And I have sent not only friends, but also even maybe a family member to. To Samantha so I can recommend her in all the ways. Welcome.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:04] Glowing. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] My pleasure. And Samantha, it was you who brought this interview to us.

Samantha Shelley [00:01:13] Yes. This is a no brainer for you, John, and for our audience, a very lucky gap. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] All right, well, today we are super excited to have in the house a name that will be familiar to you in one way or another, to many of you and, and maybe not to some others, but we're super excited to have Daniel Spencer the host.

Daniel Spencer [00:01:32] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Hey, Daniel Spencer.

Daniel Spencer [00:01:34] Hello. How's it going?

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Welcome.

Daniel Spencer [00:01:36] Excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] Yeah. So Daniel is many things. I'm going to pull up my, my list of his bio. He was raised as a Mormon in Zimbabwe and I don't think we've ever had a Zimbabwean on Mormon Stories before, as far as I know.

Daniel Spencer [00:01:50] No. Yeah, I think I'm the first.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] I also don't think we've ever had a white African on Mormon stories, which is something I've always wanted to at least nab a Mormon from South Africa. Zimbabwe is awesome. So that's kind of cool.

Daniel Spencer [00:02:03] You found the, like the smallest demographic, a white Zimbabwean African. There you go. That's.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Yeah, but that's an important perspective. So we're super excited to get into the history of that. But Daniel Spencer is also a standup comedian. He has a special on dry bar, which I am told is something cool on YouTube.

Daniel Spencer [00:02:20] It's very cool. It's very cool.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] But. But he also has a YouTube channel under Daniel Spencer. He has a TikTok account with. Drumroll, please.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:28] Samantha, 1.7 million followers.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] 1.7 million followers on TikTok. He also has an Instagram, and his handle is Dan. Dan Bam. At both those channels.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:37] Dan Bam. Bam.

Daniel Spencer [00:02:38] Dan Bam. Bam.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:38] Dan Bam.

Daniel Spencer [00:02:39] If you never get it wrong, I'm like a pink. Yeah, I have a pink hat on.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] It's Dan Bam Bam.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:44] That's such a medium.

Daniel Spencer [00:02:45] It's such a. It's such a hard thing to, like, even remember.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] But yeah, Dan Bam Bam. Thank you. Samantha always corrects me in a very diplomatic way when I'm wrong. But if those. If none of this means anything to you, but you've been watching kind of Mormon or ex Mormon TikTok, you'll remember a guy with kind of a British sounding accent to those who aren't refined, where he's like, asking BYU students if they swear and what their favorite swear words are. He's asking BYU students to serve. If they serve. And they're doing this pose that. I had no idea what it meant.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:15] If they'd rather watch porn or die a horrible, gruesome death. That one was illuminating.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] Absolutely. You'll see Daniel. Daniel twerking. You'll see him imitating the royal family, but he's just a brilliant comedian. And Samantha, tell us why you wanted Daniel to be on Mormon Stories.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:32] Because Daniel is perfect and his natural storytelling abilities are wonderful. He was in my apartment just giving me, like, the short version of his Mormon story, and I was like, God, I would listen to four hours of this, which I don't say often.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] You don't watch every episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:48] Of course. I watch every episode at half speed.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Yeah. Yeah. And there may be some other cool themes that are really important, like maybe some LGBT themes, maybe.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:00] Oh, very much so.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] And maybe some faith crisis, faith transition kind of themes as well.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:06] Definitely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] And did you attend byu?

Daniel Spencer [00:04:08] I did.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] So there's BYU themed.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:10] And John, lest we forget, Daniel was on Provo's Most Eligible.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:14] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:14] The Mormon Bachelor.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:15] The Mormon Bachelor.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:16] Do you know about this?

John Dehlin [00:04:17] Well, didn't you and Tanner.

Samantha Shelley [00:04:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Review that on Zephyr?

Samantha Shelley [00:04:20] Randolph Dan. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] That's awesome. Yeah. Okay, so were you like a mini celebrity at BYU at one point?

Daniel Spencer [00:04:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, Very much so. Awesome. Yeah, it's weird to say that, but yeah, Very much a Mormon celebrity at one point.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] And I'm just gonna hit this directly. Like, sometimes I have listeners who are grumpy that we sometimes interview kind of social media personalities on Mormon stories. And I can say, I get it. And we are never gonna stop interviewing just normal people on Mormon Stories. That's part of our bread and butter. We. We love it. We will always do that. I do also love to interview sometimes social media personalities on Mormon stories for a couple reasons. Number one, they're often interesting and fun, but they're also. It's very. It's very scary and courageous coming out of Mormonism to speak openly about your experiences there. And I think that courage deserves to be rewarded sometimes as well.

Daniel Spencer [00:05:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] And so I'm not ashamed to occasionally bring on a post Mormon superstar, and that's kind of what I. What I've done.

Daniel Spencer [00:05:21] I love that title. I'm gonna put that in, like, my bio. Post Mormon Superstar unashamed.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Wow.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:27] Yeah. And I mean, in this day and age, social media is. It's. It drives the culture. It's at least such a reflection of culture. So it would be insane if you didn't have.

Daniel Spencer [00:05:36] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:37] You know.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:37] People with 1.7 million Twitter followers who are speaking to, you know, Mormons and ex Mormons. I mean, it's not just ex women's that love your content, you know?

Daniel Spencer [00:05:45] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Very true. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Because I don't think there's 1.7 million Mormons on Tick Tock.

Daniel Spencer [00:05:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Mormons are ex Mormons.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:53] Oh, yeah. That would be a massive chunk of the.

Daniel Spencer [00:05:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:05:55] I mean, Dan's mainstream funny, but.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And his stuff's really, really fun. But don't worry, we will never stop interviewing just bread and butter Mormon stories, so.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:03] All right, so sorry, we're bringing this amazing celeb on today.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] Absolutely.

Samantha Shelley [00:06:09] Please don't stop.

Daniel Spencer [00:06:11] We're so sorry. Like, it's just the word.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] All right, so any other additions or corrections to the intro or any disclaimers you want to offer? Because you said maybe you're a little bit nervous to do this even though you're an international superstar. So, like, any disclaimers or, you know.

Daniel Spencer [00:06:27] No. I mean, obviously, I don't know. Whenever I think of Mormon stories, I always think of just like, I feel like it's like the pinnacle. Right. Once you end up on Mormon stories, it's like, oh, he's gone. He's done with the church. He's finished. And it's so interesting because I feel like I have so many people in my life who are still Mormon, and I just don't want people to kind of like, listen to this and think, like, oh, he. I don't know, maybe we can get into this further into the episode. But I'm just really appreciative that I get to be here and get to kind of just meet the people that kind of changed my world a little bit and kind of changed my perspective. So thank you for that, first of all. And. No, I think I'm. Yeah, I think you did a great job of just introducing me. I feel like a lot of the stuff that I go through, social media wise and all of this sort of stuff, I think it'll be interesting to have people kind of. My main goal with even my BYU videos is just to kind of show people a different perspective on Mormons and LDS culture in general. And so it's fun to kind of even just open this up to them and be like, hey, listen to this episode where, like, I delve into my story a little bit more. So I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] I love it. I love it. Well, where should we begin? Where does your Mormon story begin? I like a Zimbabwe Mormon story. I'm just dying to ask you a gazillion questions.

Daniel's Family Background in Zimbabwe

Daniel Spencer [00:07:48] Well, maybe we should start with my parents. Let's get into how I grew up in Zimbabwe. My dad is American from Colorado, and my mom is Zimbabwean. My mom, her family were converts, her whole family. I think she was, like, four or five when the missionaries, like, baptized her parents. And essentially what ended up happening was missionaries baptized them, and my mom was told about Rick's college, and my mom went over to Rick's. She had a roommate there, and her roommate ended up being my dad's sister. So they ended up kind of hanging out all the time. They eventually started dating, got married. They were living in Colorado, and my dad got fired from a tire store. And my mom was like, hey, like, there's not a lot of options here. Maybe we should just go on, like, vacation, kind of figure stuff out. And eventually what ended up happening was they went on vacation and just never came back to America. And they. Yeah. Had all of us over there, I think. Well, they had my first sister in Colorado, and then the rest of us were all born and raised in Zimbabwe.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] And ZIM stands for Zimbabwe Summit.

Samantha Shelley [00:09:04] Thank you, John.

Daniel Spencer [00:09:06] And so, yeah, basically what ended up happening was that they. Yeah, they raised us, and it was a wonderful, wonderful time.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Now we're gonna back up a tiny bit.

Daniel Spencer [00:09:15] Is that okay?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay. I didn't. I think I may have missed this. So was your mom a convert to the church, or was she born into the church?

Daniel Spencer [00:09:24] So she was 5, so I guess convert, kind of.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Okay. Her parents converted to the church?

Samantha Shelley [00:09:29] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [00:09:29] Yeah, her parents. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Okay. And do you. Do you know anything about what converted her parents to the church.

Daniel Spencer [00:09:36] My grandfather has a whole biography about it. I'd be lying if I said I read it fully, but basically, they were in Zambia. He was working in the copper. Copper belt as a miner, I guess. And essentially what happened is that there was a day where he was sick, I guess. And it just so happened to be the day that the missionaries came over, and they were like, it was a miracle we were converted to the church. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, the. The rigmarole of, like. And they found us. They found us on that day. And essentially kind of what I guess converted my mom. I get, like. I think it was honestly just being able to, like, grow up in the church and kind of. See, I don't know. Maybe that's just her story to tell. I don't really know if I've ever really asked my mom that question, actually. Like, what converted you? Like, what made you change? I do know that she was raised in it and that she loved it. They were very much a part of the early church in Zimbabwe, actually in Rhodesia, I guess, was the name of it at that point. And then they kind of were. The transition from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe. It's very interesting. I feel like, with kind of the, like, overturning of the, like, priesthood rule, a lot of white Zimbabweans, like, left the church. And the only people that kind of stayed were my grandparents, and they kind of led a whole bunch of branches. My grandfather was kind of in charge of all the, like, branch work, essentially. So they go out into, like, the rural bush areas, and they'd go and, like, teach black people or black Africans the gospel. And so my mom would have to go in. And this is during, like, civil war time as well, where Zimbabweans were fighting for their independence. And so my mom would always.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] From who?

Daniel Spencer [00:11:27] British rule.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [00:11:28] Colonial rule.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:29] Sorry about that.

Daniel Spencer [00:11:30] And so it was very. Sorry. I just caught on to that. Oh, Sam. Jeez. But yeah, so it was like, my mom always tells the story of how her mom. They'd be driving through and she'd sit with a gun just in case, because they'd be literally in, like, war zones going in to try and teach the gospel. And I think maybe that's where, like, my mom's conversion process came from, is just being able to see, you know, how helpful they were in some shape or form to helping people, like, learn about the gospel for the first time. You know, going into these places where, honestly, the gospel had never been allowed to be taught, and then suddenly realizing, like, hey, we can go here and we can Teach people and we can teach them everything. And so, yeah, I'd say that that probably was a major role in her conversion process.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] So just to ask about the history, really quickly, around what year was the Civil War or War of Independence?

Daniel Spencer [00:12:32] So they gained independence in 1980. I can't remember exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Like, after the priesthood ban was lifted?

Daniel Spencer [00:12:37] Yes, after the priesthood ban. It was basically like that whole war section kind of happened within the 70s. Okay. If I rem correctly, it was like, yeah, 72, roughly. Okay. But again, I don't know the, like, full history there. It was. I didn't. I don't know if I really cared for that part of the history just because it is such a, like a weird part. I did have uncles that fought in it on the British side. And so it was very interesting to just kind of like, I don't know, deal with that part of the history. But as far as I know, it was pretty. If I remember correctly, I keep saying that just because I don't want to be, like, corrected. People are going to jump in the comments and be like, no, it was actually this thing and it's like, yeah, I don't know the history, but yeah, it's. It's interesting because I feel like they ended up like handing it over eventually because they were just like, what are we doing? Why are we fighting in this, in this war? Essentially, Zimbabwe at that point was like the breadbasket of Africa is how they referred to it. There was a lot to fight for. Zimbabwe is like, very minerally wealthy. Very, like, they just have like tons of platinum, tons of diamonds. There was so many, like, newspaper articles where people would be like, kids were playing with rocks and we found out they were diamonds. And so it was. It was always interesting to like, kind of grow up in a country like that. You know, I have like a cousin who works in gold mining now. And so it's just a beautiful, beautiful place. And so I think the British definitely wanted it. But at a certain point you kind of have to give up and just be like, hey, maybe colonialism's not good. And it's like, yeah, get out quickly.

The Priesthood Ban and Zimbabwean Family Lore

John Dehlin [00:14:16] So, so was there, Was there kind of family lore about how your grandparents reacted to the lifting of the pre. The Mormon priesthood and temple ban on people of African descent?

Daniel Spencer [00:14:30] I don't think so, to be honest. I think a big testament to kind of their story is that they stayed. As far as I know, every other white member family left as soon as that happened. Racism was very deep in Zimbabwe, especially Rhodesian culture, just because it was supposed to be, like, British. Like, the British essentially wanted it to make it the first, like, white country in Africa. And so there was very much this rhetoric will just like, narrative of, like, white people are better, we are. And that was kind of what I grew up with. White people were very condescending, very like just racist, plain racist, and very bold about it too. And so it was. It was very interesting growing up because my grandfather was very much the opposite of that. And I don't want to down him in any way, shape or form for that part of his history. He was very, very kind. When I was growing up, he would just. I remember we'd have, like, car rides where he would just pull off to the side of the road. There would be, like, mothers. In Africa, it's very common to find people with giant, like, bags on their heads, particularly women. They'll carry, like, piles and piles of stuff on their heads, super strong necks. And basically he just pull off to the side of the road and be like, where do you need to go? And they tell him, and he just go kilometers off of his path to just go and drop off these people wherever they needed to go, whether it was going to a bus stop or actually dropping them off at their homes. And so I think that that was something that kind of converted me in the beginning at least, was just like watching my grandfather be like, hey, it doesn't matter who a person is, you always want to be able to kind of help them, be kind to them. And I think my grandfather always kind of adopted that, no matter what. I'm not going to say he's an entirely great man. You know, you have the personal family histories that you grow up hearing about, But I think in that particular. In those particular instances, I was very much attached to my grandfather and knowing that he was like a kind person, a good person, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] So the fact that they stayed a member of the church after 1978 was a. Was a testimony to at least their kindness.

Daniel Spencer [00:16:48] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] I mean, I guess every. Almost every Mormon I know has a story of where they were in. You know, who's been around long enough has a story of where they were in 1978 when they heard the. The. The priesthood ban on black people and the temple ban on black people was lifted.

Daniel Spencer [00:17:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] And that's a really common. You know, Mitt Romney has a story, and I've got my story, and everyone's got their story. So it's curious to hear that you didn't grow up hearing that story from your grandparents.

Daniel Spencer [00:17:16] Yeah. I feel like it was very. Yeah, they. We. It's. It's interesting that you bring it up, because I don't think we ever really discussed it, honestly. Like, I think that was part of the reason why. I mean, growing up in Africa, you don't want to hear. Or at least Africans don't want to hear. Hey, our church didn't, like, let people have the priesthood, and so maybe that was why it was avoided in a lot of ways. But we definitely heard about the after effects. Right. The fact that our grandparents stayed, the fact that they. They powered through and they made sure that all the branches expanded and that my mom was, like, a teacher in the Relief Society, and they were, like, starting out all of these processes, you know, very much. Well, we heard a lot of that, but never really, like, what happened in that moment other than there used to be a ton of white members, now there's none. And so it's like, oh, yeah, wow. Kind of crazy. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Okay. And your dad grew up where, in the United States?

Daniel Spencer [00:18:15] He grew up in Colorado. He's pioneer woman, if I remember correctly. Daniel Spencer, my namesake, was the mayor of Nauvoo. And so we have that in the history.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] One of the mayors, because I think Joseph.

Daniel Spencer [00:18:28] Yeah, I think there's just tons of them. Yeah. I don't know what the. Yeah, I don't know Whole history there, but as far as I know, they did that. And then there was some sort of, like, history with Zion's bank as well. Um, but, yeah, they very much pioneer Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [00:18:44] Expenses. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] So you were born what year?

Daniel Spencer [00:18:48] Born. 93.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] 93, yes. And how many total siblings?

Daniel Spencer [00:18:51] I have five siblings.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] So you're one of six.

Daniel Spencer [00:18:53] I'm one of six.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] And were you in the birth order?

Daniel Spencer [00:18:55] I'm number four.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] Okay. So kind of a middle. Middle child.

Daniel Spencer [00:18:59] Middle child, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Okay. So your. Your kind of childhood and teen years would have been which decades?

Daniel Spencer [00:19:09] Yeah, childhood's most of the 90s and 2000s. 2000s was where I grew up. Kind of the 2000s were my, like, prolific years, I'd say. I was the, like. I remember when the millennium happened, I was in grade two, and people were like, oh, wow, the millennium's happening. And so that was really fun. And then kind of came into, like, I don't know, we started. I kind of graduated. Well, I graduated in 2011, I guess. And so, yeah, the 2000s were just like.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] 2011.

Daniel Spencer [00:19:38] Yeah, 2011. Okay. And so it was just a really fun, like, little decade to kind of go through. We had, like, so Much stuff happen in that. I feel like.

Growing Up Mormon in Zimbabwe

John Dehlin [00:19:46] So, so what was it like growing up as a Mormon child and young teenager in Zimbabwe?

Daniel Spencer [00:19:54] It was really fun, honestly. The honest truth is I don't think a lot of people knew about Mormonism, right? Like, not enough people knew about it to be able to say anything. What I did grow up with was a lot of like Baptist and or evangelical people that had like anti Mormon rhetoric or they'd like preach at the pulpits and be like, Mormonism is satanic. But it was always like super far reaching, right? Like I remember one time sitting in a class when I was about like 14 and it was funny. There was, it was.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] We.

Daniel Spencer [00:20:31] I was a part of the one year where there were three Mormon guys. It was the one generation, I guess the one year where there was mostly Mormons. It was like the most Mormons in one generation. The rest of the years had like one or two here and there. And so we all were at the same high school. One of them was my cousin. And I remember guys were talking about him being such a great rugby star. He was a big jock. People were talking about him and they were like, yeah, but he's Mormon. Mormons, those crazy Mormons, they believe in astrology. And I was like, I remember astrology. And that's all they said. That's all they said. And I was like, what? This is so stupid. So I remember interrupting the conversation and being like, hey, I'm also Mormon. We don't believe in astrology.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:17] We just believe you'll get your own planet one day and that God lives on a star called Kolob. Yeah, very different.

Daniel Spencer [00:21:22] It was just. Yeah, well, and I didn't even know that at that point. Like I didn't know the in depth parts of Mormonism at that point. I had just like had a very basic knowledge. They were like, oh, they believe that Joseph Smith is the savior. Or at least they asked me that as a follow up question. They were like, well, don't you believe like Joseph Smith is more important than Jesus? And I was like, no, we like believe and worship in Jesus. And I remember going home after that and being like, I stood up for my religion. I did that. I did that thing today.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Did you serve when you did that?

Daniel Spencer [00:21:54] Yeah, it was just very, it was a very interesting moment to kind of have. But that was like the first moment I remember even like trying to like stand up for my beliefs or being like, Mormonism isn't what you think it is essentially because I think honestly, as I look back, it was it was, it was a very watered down. You get a very watered down version when you're not in America. Right. Like, it's so interesting growing up in, in Zimbabwe because you have the very basic principles of just like, be kind, be a good person. The plan of salvation is for everyone. Like, there isn't a lot that they delve into. I remember the first time they did that was again, I must have been 14 or 15. My dad had or my. The tempo. This is. Yeah, I remember now. The mission president had a meeting with all temple endowed people and a lot of them were my aunts and uncles. And he basically like went in depth into doctrine, particularly like the afterlife and polygamy in heaven and like all this sort of stuff. And I remember vividly we weren't allowed to be in the room for the conversation. But afterwards my aunts all sat with my dad and my mom till like 3am just crying and being like, I did not know that like this was going to be the case. I didn't know that my husband is going to have or even have the choice to have multiple wives in heaven. And now you're telling me he gets to choose who he gets to be married to and I have no say in that. And so my dad, this is the other thing. My dad is a very kind person and he's a patient person. And I think that's something that I appreciated growing up because he just tried to take the time to really like just sit down with them and be like, look, we don't know everything. But like, this is what I do know. I don't think it's as like black and white as you're painting it out to be. I think it's very gray. And so it was like this. That's a prolific memory I have of being like for the first time in my life, being like, oh, there's more than just what I've learned in like primary and in young men's. There might be something more to like the history. And that being said, my dad was never secretive with that stuff. Like he never was like, let me hold this back, let me not tell people. Like, my dad was very honest in being like, we do have polygamous history. But I think that only really came up after that conversation because I was like, well, did we have that? Did our ancestors have that? Did Daniel Spencer Nauvoo have that? And my dad was very like, yep, that's that. Yep, that happened. That was the case. But I also think we just like tried to avoid it because we Knew it was a little bit of a hot topic, right? We didn't want to kind of go further. And honestly, I didn't care to. I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, that was back in the past. We're in the present. This is the thing. I also think it was funny because after that, after that situation, I feel like my parents also dealt with. And I didn't even realize it until after the fact, but they dealt with that throughout. In Zimbabwe, like, people would preach over the pulpit, Mormons have multiple wives. And everyone thought in Zimbabwe that my mom was like a second or third wife, because they were like, who. What woman has six kids? Who can go through six children? And so they're like, she has to be like, she has to be like a second wife. So it's just so interesting. But then I started to recognize those things, right? Suddenly I was like, oh, yeah, people are, like, mean to my parents about Mormonism. Like, they're, like, very confrontational. Like, very confrontational about being like, oh, no, you're a Satanist. Like, people would just flat out say it to my parents. And I was like, oh, that feels not very nice. That doesn't feel very Christian of these people. And so there was part of me that also just kind of wanted to in some way, like, defend it in some way, be like, you guys are wrong. And, yeah, maybe there's, like, something bad to it, but, like, I know my parents are good people. I know my parents are, like, good believing Christians. Sorry. I could even cry about that because it felt like. It felt. It felt sad. You know, I felt sad for my parents because they weren't, I don't know, seen as Christians in any way, shape or form. And in a very Christian and predominantly Christian country where people were, like, bold about it, they felt very attacked, particularly by white Zimbabweans. I'll say that black Zimbabweans are down to have the conversation and be like, well, let's get into it. Let's talk about it, then let's discuss. Whereas white Zimbabweans were just very prideful, very, ugh, in your face about everything. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] So what did that sort of persecution do to your faith, do you think?

Daniel Spencer [00:27:03] I think it. It emboldened me a little bit. It made me curious. I remember for the first time wanting to go out with the missionaries on exchanges just because I was like, I wonder what. I wonder what goes on. We had always grown up with missionaries coming through, and we always tried to prioritize missionaries. My mom and dad were like, these guys have come from America and are now in the middle of, like, rural Zimbabwe most of the time. And they have to adapt and, like, learn how to just be, like, in these areas. And so we should try and prioritize and make sure that they, like, come through, have a good meal, that they're, like, taken care of, because we want to make sure all of these missionaries are, like, I don't know, prioritized. And so I had always grown up with a missionary presence. It was very fun to have them around. We'd always, like, try and get, like, investigators, but it was very hard, especially with the rhetoric of evangelical preachers being like, they're say. They say they are satanic. What was nice, though, is that once I started going out on the exchanges, I felt like I started learning more about kind of doctrine in a lot of ways. And it was just very interesting to kind of experience that at 16, 17. That was like, the first moment.

Mormon Family Life and Culture at Home

John Dehlin [00:28:27] You know, before we jump into that, let's go back and I just want you to kind of maybe talk about how Mormonism was experienced in your family. You know, normal, like, family evening scripture study, family prayer, like, family rules.

Daniel Spencer [00:28:42] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] And then also, like, if. If it wasn't until later that you learned the doctrine.

Daniel Spencer [00:28:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] What types of teachings were emphasized in your home? Mormon home, Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [00:28:53] I think we're a very typical Mormon family in that. Well, so it was always interesting. We got conference talks. Like, was it like a month or two months after when the DVD or the videotape came out? So we didn't experience, like, live conference talks, but my dad would look up the, like, conference talks on, like, emails or, like, little website stuff. He'd be like, okay, we've got the talk now. He'd read it and then he'd be like, okay, we're going to start having family evening again, and we're going to start, like, reading the scriptures. The amount of times we read first Nephi was, like, so insane. And we were like, yeah, we were not a family that, like, could read. I remember the first time we ever made it to what was. It starts with an A. I think it was the first time we ever made it to Alma. We were like, wow, like, we are really doing this thing. Like, we are really reading. But I also remember being so bored. Like, I had adhd. I have adhd, and it is so hard to hold my concentration. But at the same time, I feel like it was very much emphasized. My mom always made sure she was like, reading the scriptures is a good way to learn how to read. Like, if you want to read out loud. And I was a performer, right Immediately from the get go, I was doing like poetry readings and all that sort of stuff. So it was always fun for me to like, read the scriptures in like a very dramatic way. It wasn't very reverent on my part. I'd be like. And so they said, well, my mom was like, okay, Daniel, as soon as, like. Because we'd take a turn, we'd take like, I think we had to read two verses at a time. And we'd all go around in the circle and everyone would be like. And I was like, I'm gonna liven it up. And so I was like. And they said, wa, Wa.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] So, well, it is Shakespearean English, right? Or am I mistaken?

Daniel Spencer [00:30:31] Well, and it felt like it, right? It felt very, very like flowery, flowery cold.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] It stayeth unto thee.

Daniel Spencer [00:30:38] And that was my whole thing. I was just like, this is so boring. I'm gonna go off. Like, that was how I wanted to do it. And so we had that sort of stuff in terms of, like, teachings and that sort of stuff. Again, very atypical. Like, this is how it was. But I also feel like my parents were. And maybe this is like what a lot of, like, Mormons outside of Utah can relate to is my parents were very like, chill in a lot of ways. But they had moments where they were like, no R rated movies. We won't watch R rated movies. And then my dad would play an action movie and he was like, okay, we'll go like, if they say like the F word like four times, we'll turn it off. And then in some instances, they'd say the F word like four times. And he'd be like, okay, we're just gonna, we're gonna like, we're gonna see how, how bad it gets. And then if it got really bad, he'd be like, okay, we're turning it off, right? Like, there were just like some instances where they were like, no, again, after the conference talks. We can't watch this sort of stuff. We can't be a part of this stuff. Let's get involved. Let's do this. And then there were definitely moments where it was just like, ah, you know, let's. Yeah, sure, we can watch this movie. We can watch James Bond. It's James Bond. Come on. It's. It's Mission Impossible. And so I think there were certain instances where like, yeah, it was prioritized and it wasn't right. And then it was kind of hard in. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] Like, so, like, drinking coffee or tea.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:03] No. Yeah, that never. That never happened. We also grew up with rooibos, though. And as far as I was told, rooibos tea, it's like a red tea. Oh. And it technically, as far as I know, or as far as we were told growing up, it falls under herbal.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Do you know what this is, Samantha? Have you heard of this?

Samantha Shelley [00:32:18] I thought it was her. Is it from a tea leaf? I'm Googling it. I have to know.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:22] It's from a bush. It's a bush tea.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:23] I think that is herbal, isn't it?

Daniel Spencer [00:32:25] Yeah, they classify it as a herbal tea.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] What isn't herbal? Like, what tea is it? Like, tea's a plant.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:31] It's all a plant. Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:33] If it matters. So, like, black, green, white tea, they come from tea leaves.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] The same leaf. Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:38] Or different leaves.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] But like, I heard a green tea is just a different extraction. Same leaf. Okay, well, it's like unmatched, unmatured leaf.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:48] I think the distinction is that with herbal teas, it's. It's herbs, you know, simmering in water as opposed to the tea.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:55] Yeah. Like a rosemary tea or. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Okay. Anyway, so you had a. You had a loophole.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:59] Yeah, a little. A little loophole. Yeah. Well, and that was the thing. It was always seen as, like, a little loophole. And my mom would always be like, well, we don't drink black tea, but Rooibos tea we drink.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:07] And there's no caffeine in rooibos tea.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:09] And that was like the big. That was like. The big argument was like, I forgot about that. Yeah. They would always be like, yeah, there's no caffeine. So it's fine. It's fine. There's no caffeine. Which is such an interesting.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Because we just did an episode on the word of wisdom. Because the prohibition isn't on caffeine or.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:24] No, it's on a hot.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Hot drinks, according to Joseph Smith. Yeah, but would you drink. Yeah. Would you drink this tea hot?

Daniel Spencer [00:33:31] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, you're dealing with British culture, so, like, a lot of people were like, you don't drink tea.

Samantha Shelley [00:33:38] You have to have a tea that you drink at someone's house.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Yeah, well.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:41] And that was the thing. My mom and dad, again, like, they weren't, like, crazy about stuff. Right. Like, my mom cooked with alcohol all the time. My aunts. Maybe this is a little too much, but, like, they'd, like, bake cake. There is a prominent. We have a prominent moment. Like, I don't know. There were so Like a couple instances where my aunts would like douse a bundt cake in like liquor. And they'd be like, and now time to light it on fire. And they'd light it on fire.

Samantha Shelley [00:34:06] Yeah. Christmas pudding. Yes.

Daniel Spencer [00:34:07] A Christmas pudding. Yes, exactly. They'd light it on fire. There was one time my aunt made it and she was like, okay, and now we, we flump it. She lit it on fire and she was like. And she like blew out the fire and was like, that's enough, that's okay. And then my uncles always talk about a crepe night. It was a prominent crepe night in my memory of a prominent crepe night. A prominent crepe night where they flambeed crepes. But my uncles swear that all of my aunts were like drunk off of off of crepes. Because they just were like, woo, this is so fun. Because I don't know, it was again, we grew up with the culture being like, hey, you shouldn't drink alcohol or tea or coffee. Coffee was off the table. We never really delved into coffee. I remember one time eating coffee cake by accident and being like, I am going to hell.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Except coffee cake doesn't have coffee in it.

Daniel Spencer [00:35:00] Yeah, well, that was. I wish I had known that at the time. But I was like, I remember telling my mom, I was like. And I took a bite of coffee cake and she was like, daniel, it's fine. You're going to be okay. And I was like, but is God going to forgive me for this? Right? Like, I knew it was a bad thing, or at least I believed it was a bad thing. And that was funny that that was the case. But like with alcohol and tea, it kind of was like again, the loophole of like, where do we go with this? How far do we go with this? And so, yeah, Roy Boss's rooibos and alcohol were very, very much like, loose. Okay.

Core Mormon Beliefs and Testimony

John Dehlin [00:35:35] All right, let's do like your, your former Mormon testimony in one minute. So I'll, I'll say a belief and you say, you describe it.

Daniel Spencer [00:35:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] Your belief in Heavenly Father God was what?

Daniel Spencer [00:35:44] There is a God in the sky and I think he's there probably, and I hope he is.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] Okay. And Jesus was what?

Daniel Spencer [00:35:51] Jesus is the guy who died for all of us. And I hope that I'm doing good with that.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] That's how you believe back then?

Daniel Spencer [00:35:58] Yes. Are we talking like, okay, and Joseph Smith was, is a guy from America who invented the church. That was how I like saw him

John Dehlin [00:36:09] and the Book of Mormon Was Book of Mormon.

Daniel Spencer [00:36:11] I don't. I never read it. I never read it once other than like, the family. In the family stuff, but I never, like, absorbed any of the stuff.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] What were you taught? The Book of Mormon was.

Daniel Spencer [00:36:20] Book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ and it was translated from gold plates by Joseph Smith and Nephi got the Bible. That's all. Like, I remember, like, certain stories from it, but never really, like, absorbed a lot of it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [00:36:36] And.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] And the church was what?

Daniel Spencer [00:36:39] The church was a church. It was just church to me.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] The church, like the one and only true church.

Daniel Spencer [00:36:46] It only became the. The church to me when I was like, 17.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Oh, wow. Really? Before then, it was just a church.

Daniel Spencer [00:36:52] It was just. Well, like, it wasn't necessarily, like, I didn't believe it was the church. I know that we were told that, but I never really was converted to it. I was just like, we're all Christian here. Like, that's how it should be. Like, I don't know. Again, comparing myself to other, like, Christians. I was like, we all have the same teachings, but I remember having, like, different books. Right. Like the Pearl of Great Price. I remember being like. I remember doing. We did seminary homework. We didn't have, like, go early in the morning every day. We had, like, once a week. And then you bring your home and I was bad with it. I never did that stuff because I was like, I have other, like, responsibilities. Especially in Zimbabwe. Like, you had. You were forced to do two sports and a club in. In school.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] What were your sports?

Daniel Spencer [00:37:33] It changed per semester, but it was usually rugby was always my, like, winter one, my go to, because they were like, you have to be a man, you know, and, like, men prove themselves in rugby, which is always interesting. And then I'd. I'd play, like, occasionally, like, field hockey. I tried cricket. It was boring as hell. So I was like, I'm not doing this again. What else did I do? I tried water polo and then I did. Oh, yeah, basketball in high school. Basketball was like my main one. Just because I was like, water polo was so boring. And I was like, where am I going to go with water polo? Like, nowhere. I just don't want to sit in a pool all day and be like, I hope I float. Like, it was just such a weird. Such a weird experience to be in there. So, yeah, like, doing seminary homework was just not a priority for me. But I remember one time going up to a friend and being like, do you know the Book of Moses? If the. It says this. And I read a Seminary question. And I was like, in the Book of Moses it says. And he was like, there is no book of Moses. And I was like, wait, what? He was like, like, you mean like a physical book in the Bible called the Book of Moses? And I was like, oh. And that was a moment where I was like, maybe we don't have the same exact beliefs as everyone else. And that was around when I was like 13, 14, somewhere around there.

Dating, Chastity, and Early Attractions

John Dehlin [00:38:51] So what were the teachings around dating and morality and chastity and then what was your experience dating or not dating as a teenager? As a Mormon teenager in Zimbabwe?

Daniel Spencer [00:39:06] Yeah, this is an interesting question because I never dated until. It wasn't even like until the last year. But I definitely like did not acknowledge girls and tried to avoid women in general. And I put this in my stand up sets all the time. I just like avoided women. Like I was like, if I don't talk to women then guys can't be like, who are you dating? Now that being said, it was, I will say this. So my grandfather was very much in the, what, he was a sex educator, particularly HIV educator. He would go into rural, like rural villages, distribute stuff to help people with hiv.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Can you, can you talk about why in Africa the HIV thing was significant for those who just don't know the history?

Daniel Spencer [00:39:55] Well, people just don't have the care necessary to be able to kind of treat it and so, or, or prevent it or prevent it in general. And honestly rape is very prominent. Sorry, that's, it's, it's sad. I like grew up with that every. Like it's really hard because you see like we would go and see abandoned babies, we'd go to like little orphanages where kids had hiv. Sorry, I don't know why, that just hit me like a ton of bricks, but it was, it was crazy. We would try very hard to. And I think this is again another reason why I was maybe more converted than other people was just because I wasn't really converted to the church. I was converted by what my parents and my grandparents wanted us to do, which was help people. And so we'd go into these rural areas with toys and clothes and medicine to be able to kind of help these people that just were like suffering in Africa. There was no real education. And so that's why my grandfather was so adamant about it. He was like, we need to educate

John Dehlin [00:41:00] people on no real education where.

Daniel Spencer [00:41:02] Sorry, what was that?

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Did you say there was no education?

Daniel Spencer [00:41:05] No, no education around HIV in general? Just like how, again like you said, preventative measurements and how to, like, let's make sure these people don't catch it. Or at least if you do, how we can help them stay alive longer, essentially, at that point, because there was no real, like, ARVs were not really antiretrovirals, I believe it's referred to as. There was nothing in place to be able to kind of help people in those situations. And so we had a very, very extensive education on sex growing up. My grandfather had a video of just tons of STDs for educative purposes, but he gathered all of the grandsons in a room and pressed play when we were all, like, teenagers and was like, this is what you can catch if you have sex. And we were like, okay. And my aunts and uncles were very, very, very sex positive. They were like, sex is a good thing. Like, my talk was when I. My parents gave me the talk was like, sex is good. It feels good. That's why you want to do it. You will want to do sex because sex is a good thing. And we are like, okay, that's. That's fine. That's fun. Interesting. But again, I feel like that also, like, seeing the STD video was just like. That's a prominent memory because I was like, what is going on? These diseases are crazy, but you're also dealing with the worst of the worst, where people haven't, like, received the appropriate medical attention or, like, anything. So I was very scared of, like, sex. I was like, this feels bad. That being said, I. I don't know. So, interesting fact about me, there was a guy who was also. Well, not out anyone, but I grew up from 12 to 18 having a hookup buddy who we would just, like, hook up with occasionally and pretty regularly, honestly, starting at age 12. At age 12.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Wow. In spite of these scary videos?

Daniel Spencer [00:43:16] In spite of these scary videos.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Well, so you started experiencing feelings for guys?

Daniel Spencer [00:43:22] Well, I don't even know if I'd say it was like, feelings. I wanted it maybe to be more like feeling, but I think he was more in it for just like, this is a sex thing than it is like, a. An emotional connection type thing. We were friends. We were like, best friends, but we never. Yeah, I always tell the story because I think it's funny. One time I tried to kiss him because I was like, this feels. We're doing a lot of stuff right now.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Well, you're saying you were having sex but not kissing?

Daniel Spencer [00:43:54] Yeah, we never. We never kissed at all. And so that was always weird. I remember I leaned in to kiss and he was like, wait, What. What's going on? Because we never talked about it. We never said what we were doing out loud. We just do it. And then we'd be done, and we'd be like, cool. But I leaned on one time to kiss him, and he was like, what? Wait, what are you doing? I was like, I feel like this is the natural. Is this not the natural way to go about this stuff? And he was like, no, that. That's like, that's gay. I was like, you have my penis in your mouth, and this is, like, where you're okay. That's the gay thing, is the kissing part of this whole situation. And so, like, stuff like that would happen. So, yeah, I had a such a weird, I feel like, interpretation of what, like, was okay in sex. What was fine with, like, it was so weird to have, like, a very positive sex. Positive. It's a good thing. Then you have the STD stuff, and then you have me having, like, sexual experiences, but at the same time also being like, I know this is bad technically because of stuff. And only when I started getting, like, more converted going out with missionaries when I was 16, did I start, like, feeling bad about that stuff. I felt bad initially because I was like, this is against, like, the Commandments. I know that much. I know that sex isn't, like, Jesus doesn't want me to have sex, essentially. But at the same time, I was also just like. But it feels real good. Like, I was like, this is fine. So, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:23] When you started having sex at 12, did you know how to keep yourself safe by 12?

Daniel Spencer [00:45:29] No. Well, I knew that condoms were a thing, but we also, if I can just be explicit, we never had, like, anal sex. Like, we never did that. We tried. At one point, it hurt so bad. I was like, no, that's not happening. But. And so it was mainly just, like, I'd say, like, pretty safe in general. Like, it wasn't anything, like, crazy, you know? That being said, once we turned 16 in high school, they had very extensive, like, sex ed classes where they would put us through the. You need to use protection. You need to do this stuff. And that was when we started, like, thinking about it, and that's when we tried more experimental stuff. And we were like, no, we'll just stick to what we. What we've been going through. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Wow. Yeah. So, like, most Mormons that I interview, and ironically, most Mormons who eventually identify as gay or lesbian. Yeah, it's almost 100% say they had no sexual interaction with anyone until after their mission. If, if not when they got married in a mixed orientation marriage. But like, and even straight kids, it's rare. So. So this is a rare Mormon story to, to hear that you were sexually active at 12.

Daniel Spencer [00:46:46] Well, and it doesn't surprise me. Like, when I took the amount of times I had to, like, even on my mission, educate companions on what sex was, I was like, how do you, how do you not know this? Like, I knew this at age 10. Right. Like, I knew what sex was and I had like an in depth education on what it was. And so it was always, it's always been shocking to me to talk to, especially Utah moments, because I feel like it was never emphasized and maybe I had too much of it, honestly, that maybe that can be said. But at the same time, it's also like, I don't know, like, people need to have that conversation with kids to make sure that they like. Because I think the reason why you go back to your protective. Were you using protection? Were you doing all this sort of stuff? The reason why I think we were so confident with it was just because we knew the, the measures that we had to take to make sure that that wasn't going to be the case. Right. Like, I knew for a fact that because both of us weren't necessarily sexually active with other people, we were like, it's okay because it's just us. We're not doing anything else. And as long as that's the case, we're good, we're safe, we're, we're okay. But I think in the culture from when I, you know, started actually meeting Mormons here in America, it suddenly became like, these people don't know. They have absolutely no idea what sex is and they're like 19. How is this not the case?

John Dehlin [00:48:08] A couple quick questions. I'm guessing you don't want to say anything that will reveal who this sexual partner was. I'm dying. I'm curious to know if he was LDS or not. But you. I also want to say, you don't have to answer that if you don't want to either way.

Daniel Spencer [00:48:24] But I guess by I'm already revealing it. Yeah. Yes, he was.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Okay.

Navigating a Gay Identity as a Mormon Teen

Daniel Spencer [00:48:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Okay. And then it. Was it your impression that he didn't identify as gay even later on, that he was just looking for a way to have sexual gratification and that he actually was heterosexual or bisexual or like. I'm trying to make sense of that don't kiss me thing.

Daniel Spencer [00:48:45] Yeah. I still haven't had the conversation with him. Yeah. To be honest with you, I only as I've left the. Or started leaving the church, essentially. Have I started even having conversations with him after the fact? Because. And I think that's a conversation that I still need to have with him. It's just like, what was that? What was that thing that we did? It was a unique and weird situation for me, just because I felt like, I don't know, there are some positives there and there are some negatives in that. I was very afraid once 16 came around, because there were instances where he kind of, like, blackmailed me into continuing to have stuff. And that I want to clarify in saying that wasn't like, the common process. Both of us were very much into it, but there were points where I wanted to stop. And I was like, I don't know if I want to keep doing this. Jesus might feel bad. My dad's a bishop. I don't want to ever have to, like, confess to him about this stuff, because I knew that confession was a thing. But that being said, I think that that also kind of created this moment or weirdness where I felt like I needed to lie in a lot of. For safety purposes. Right. Being closeted and gay is so scary because you. And this is. Yeah, it's a protection mechanism. And I felt like I needed to do it because it was the only way to stay safe. And I've only just started addressing that in therapy, which is like, why do I feel like I. Why did I feel okay to just be like, oh, no, I definitely don't. I definitely don't have sex with guys. Oh, yeah, no, no, no, I don't do that. No, I don't do this. And those were the only instances where I really, like, I said I told big lies. And that'll come into play, you know, later on in the story. But it is so hard to have to, from age 12 on, going to, like, these weird interviews where they'd be like, do you do this stuff? Do you do this stuff? And it was like, I remember the first time I ever, like, really experienced it. I was 12. I was having the deacon interview. I had just turned 12. I was so excited because I was becoming a deacon, right? They were like, you're a man now. It's going to be so exciting for you. Blah, blah, blah. And the bishop sat me down and was like, okay, well, I can't remember how the questions phrase. Do you have, like, have you ever had homosexual work contact or whatever it was with another man? And I remember sitting there for like a solid two seconds and being like, you have a decision to make. And you have to make this believable or else something bad can happen. Your mom and dad are gonna find out. And in Zimbabwe, it was illegal to be homosexual or do any homosexual acts. And so in that moment, I was just like, there's a lot working against me. I'm gonna be very believable in this moment. And I was like, oh, no, no. And I knew to just, like, give one, one word answers from that point on. And so that was something that I had to, like, kind of really confront more recently was I spent most of my teen years lying to these spiritual leaders and being like, no, I didn't have sex because I was so afraid. That being said, and those were usually the moments where I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. We've been doing this. If I stop for a time or if I just stop this, then we don't have to keep going. And it lasts for a little bit. And then we'd get back into it. We'd start doing stuff again, and then it would come up for another interview. I'd be like, no, I don't want to do this. And then also, like, sacrament, Passing the sacrament. My dad would be like, we need you to pass the sacrament. I'd be like, okay, I don't want to do this, but now I have to. So I always had, like, a weirdly guilty conscience about it occasionally, but again, it never stuck out super hard.

Samantha Shelley [00:52:51] So did you maybe pre 16, did you feel, like, a general sense of worry that you were gay and, like, that this was a culture, a church that was gonna demand that you marry a woman?

Daniel Spencer [00:53:10] I was nervous about it, but I think I just held out hope that I was bi. Like, I was like, maybe I can make this work. Like, it's so weird that I. From 16 on, I had the thought, oh, I could just, like, use Viagra, probably. Like, I was like, it'll be fine. Like, I'll just use Viagra. Like, that'll be okay. Guys have done it. So, yeah, it was. It was a stupid and weird thought to have, but, yeah, I definitely. It was definitely on my mind at certain points.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] You know, when I started doing the research I did on LGBTQ Mormonism, it was very, very common for gay Mormons to be taught that they were gay either because of some type of dysfunctional relationship with their parents or because of abuse.

Daniel Spencer [00:54:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] And I. I got in the habit of bringing this up whenever. Whenever I interviewed a gay Mormon because, well, the abuse is so rampant in the Mormon Church. Yeah, that Chances are, if you're gay, you. There's a good chance you were abused. But people can do the correlation not causation thing and make false correlations there, because there's plenty of boys that were abused who didn't, you know, come out as gay. But somebody might listen to this and go, well, that's why you became gay is because you were sexually active with a boy when you were 12. So I want to give you just a chance to address someone who might still have the. And by the way, the psychological literature, as far as I'm aware.

Daniel Spencer [00:54:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Shows zero correlation between abuse and your sexual preference. So what was your experience?

Daniel Spencer [00:54:48] Well, and that's. That's the thing that I think is unique for me is I had. I had no abuse. Like, absolutely no abuse. And that was when I first came.

John Dehlin [00:54:56] I guess someone could say this. These experiences with this other kid were maybe abusive in some way or.

Daniel Spencer [00:55:03] Definitely. Yeah. I should clarify. No previous abuse before this.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] Oh, okay.

Daniel Spencer [00:55:07] The blackmail. And again, there was only a few instances where that was like, that was the case because again, for me, it was also gratification. There was like, hey, I also like how this feels and I also like how this goes. But the blackmail moments were obviously, like, emotional abuse. In my particular situation, though, I think I received the most abuse from myself in the way of, like, I emotionally abused myself. And I put myself through a lot of just like, you're a bad person. This is what you're going through. At the same time, like, again, I just go back to. I also made these decisions because I was gay. I think I knew that at that point.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] So you knew that from an early age?

Daniel Spencer [00:55:58] Yeah, I knew I was different from early on. I was obsessed with Barbies and ponies. But I also knew in Zimbabwe that it was, again, it was about protecting myself and making sure that people knew or thought that I was straight. I. I had a lot of. A lot of very manly jock cousins. They were all giant rugby players. They played on the national teams. And I was the only grandson of my grandfather who was the Rhodesian rugby captain, who was this, like, kind of fruity, right? Like, very different. They were like, this is a kneeled grandson. This is Reg, Neil's grandson. They're like, compared to all the other grants, this is the one. And I was like, yeah, this one who's reading poetry and winning prizes for poetry readings is also part of the Neil family. So it was, it was always. It was always so interesting. But I if to those people I would just say, like, it's it's frustrating to have people be like, well, abuse is so prominent. Abuse is so crazy. But at a certain point, I think everyone knows or everyone can kind of decipher if they're slightly different. And it's not up to outside influences. A lot of the time, it makes it more confusing, for sure. But at least in my instance, I knew from an early age that I was gay. I knew I was different, and I just wanted to kind of express that in some way, shape or form. And regardless of the abuse, the abuse just kind of made it honestly even harder to be more gay because I wanted to be who I was no matter what. And I think maybe that was part of the reason that I kept trying to, like, go back and forth between it was just because it was like, this is so horrible. If anything, that, like. And that's the other thing. They don't look at the other side of the abuse, the way the church abuses it. Right. The emotional abuse I had to go through because the church is saying, you're a bad person because you do xyz, you know, it hurts. And it makes me feel bad constantly. So, yeah, it was just really, really weird to kind of go through in general.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] And if somebody said, well, just being sexually active with the boy at 12 can maybe put you down that path. Just like Spencer B. Kimball and Miracle forgiveness, that masturbation can make you gay, which is also silly. I. I'd probably belabor in the book, but.

Daniel Spencer [00:58:30] But, no, but it's. It's so very much part of the conversation. And I feel like people want to make up excuses for why people are gay. And it's like, no, like, the reason I did it at 12. Funny how when I went hit puberty, I was like, I think I want to touch a guy. Yeah, I think I want a guy to touch me. Like, that is naturally genetic. That is what I was feeling at the time, and that is what I wanted. And that's why it happened. It wasn't because, oh, I had gone through so many different things beforehand. It's. No, it was. The two of us wanted to express differently how we felt towards each other. For him, it was more sexual. For me, it was that I was gay. And I was like, oh, this is

John Dehlin [00:59:11] how I want to get off and emotional. Because you wanted to kiss him. So I did.

Daniel Spencer [00:59:15] Yeah. And. Yeah, and that was the other thing. It was like, very much like, maybe this is the right time. And that was the only thing is, like, I had to protect myself in some way, shape or form. But at the Same time. I was very, very, very into it

Samantha Shelley [00:59:26] at that point, but also thinking about your question, John, Kids will experiment with people of the same sex and not become gay. Like, it's. It's not a binary. Sometimes what you're drawn to when you're younger is different from what you're drawn to as you're older. It's like sexuality is ever evolving.

Daniel Spencer [00:59:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:42] It doesn't seem like there's a fixed way one way or the other, you know?

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Totally.

Samantha Shelley [00:59:46] It's just like, you wanted to do it.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] Yeah, I just like to hit those questions.

Daniel Spencer [00:59:51] Well. And the guy that I had those experiences with, he's married to a woman, and they're not in the church, so, like, they. They have a happy relationship, as far as I know.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] So, like, didn't make him gay.

Daniel Spencer [01:00:02] It didn't make him gay. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. So unless he's doing that out of

John Dehlin [01:00:06] fear, like, what would happen in Zimbabwe if you were a teenage kid caught being gay? Like, would they put you in jail? Would they?

Daniel Spencer [01:00:13] I honestly, I mean, I'd never heard about that stuff, but I did. There was one instance where a boy came out as bisexual. And I remember the whole school wanted to, like, beat him up.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Oh.

Daniel Spencer [01:00:25] But he was also a black belt in Taekwondo. And so one kid tried to come at him, and he beat the shit out of him. And everyone was like, okay, well, maybe we don't beat up that kid. But I remember being so, like, one surprised, but also just being like, wow, I wish I had the same courage that that kid had to just be like, yeah, maybe I am into dudes. Right. Like, it just takes that, like, those small instances of courage to be like, hey, I was too afraid. I was too afraid to even try and find out. But there were definitely people that were thrown in jail constantly for being caught doing gay stuff. So I imagine if I had been caught in some way, shape or form, it might have been the case. But. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] Okay. Okay. So you were earlier gonna go into, like, once you started doing splits with the missionaries.

Daniel Spencer [01:01:15] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:15] And.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] And started learning more. The deeper doctrine. Do you want to. Do you want to jump back to that now?

Daniel Spencer [01:01:20] Oh, yeah, that'd be great. Basically, what ended up happening was that we had a lot of. All the missionaries were coming over to teach my sister's best friend the gospel. My sister's best friend had. She had grown up with us since age 5. Her and my sister were inseparable. They had. I think they were two days apart with their birthday. So they always had like shared birthdays. It was very fun. And watching the missionaries teach was interesting to me. It was intriguing because I wanted to be a part of that in like some way, shape or form. I was like, these guys are very confident in what they believe in. And again, I was kind of being confronted by friends who were saying the weird stuff of like, Joseph Smith believes in astrology. And I wanted to know more about my own beliefs, I think, because again, I think I can be converted to like the kindness aspect of Christianity of being like, be kind, be good, God loves us, right, like blah blah, blah. But I wanted to kind of delve more into actual doctrine. And so I remember turning 16 and as soon as I turned 16, I. My parents were like, now you can go on splits, hahaha. And I was like, yes, I want to do that, I want to do that thing. And so I went up to one of the missionaries, I was like, I want to go on splits. And they were like, that's actually great because we're starting a branch and we go out every Sunday. Do you want to just come with us every Sunday? And I was like, okay. And I remember we would spend from like 2pm to like 8pm just in this rural bush area. It was around this place called Dombushawa, which was a small rural community. It's famous for having cave paintings. And so that's always how I thought of it. I was like, oh, donba shower the place with cave paintings. But suddenly I started exploring like the actual like villages. And now that's expanded. I think it became one of the most prominent like wards after my mission, after the fact. But we started like that process. And so that was where. That's where I feel like I first like received my first like true conversion processes. But I also feel like it was a lot of just like random happenings, one that I can't explain. I can't remember even what like the section of DNC was was. There was a moment where this guy was like, this member was like, I want to know if I should give my land to the church. And he was like, I just don't know. And the missionary beforehand was like, hey, this guy wants to give his land to the church to build a. Basically like the building, the church building on. And he's just really struggling with that. And we don't know if he's going to do that or not, but we'll see. And we go in and he's. He this. The member expresses it and we pray and then he's like, okay. And the missionary is like, okay, Daniel, what do you want to, what do you want to teach him to tell us a principle? And I not knowing any scriptures. Again, I have read the scriptures of my family. I don't know what scripture to turn to. I don't know what page things are on. I just open my scriptures to a random page and I turn to DNC and I start reading and it's like, and you will give your land to the church and everything, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I can't explain this, this is crazy. Like, I was like, this is wild. And to this day, that's the one of the two instances I have where I'm like, I don't know how to explain this. Like, it was weird. And it was a weird happenstance, but also like, kind of wild, right? Like, kind of a crazy experience to have as a 16 year old being like, I've never read scriptures, I opened the scriptures and suddenly I told this man exactly what he needed to hear. And so I remember going home after that and being like, oh my gosh, it's crazy when you open the scriptures and pray. And my parents were so happy and excited to like see me going through that experience, you know. And from that point on, I felt very, very, very strongly that I wanted to have more of those experiences with missionaries. And so I kept going on exchanges trying to have experiences like that again. And I wouldn't say that I had any more experiences like that on those exchanges. It was more just kind of like helping people. We went and like painted school houses and we went and taught people who really needed help. We helped like mothers who like their fathers had abandoned them and their kids. And like, yeah, it was just really fun experiences to just have as like 16, 17 year old being like, I'm helping people genuinely, like, live a better life. And so the church is good because I'm doing this for people, but it's Africa. Like, I was like, I could be doing this. And I had been doing that my whole life, right? Like we'd worked in charities my whole life, just going through and donating products, educating people about hiv, doing all the like weird workshops and stuff like that. And so, yeah, it was an interesting process to go through, but I feel like that was like my first like conversion process.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] Checkmate. Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:40] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [01:06:41] Oh, well, I mean, I mean, well, I'm kind of joking, but I mean that's a. There's this idea and I remember it too. I was taught this in seminary that like in, in your hour of need to facilitate your own or someone else's conversion. The Holy Ghost will inspire you to flip to just the right section of the scriptures.

Daniel Spencer [01:07:02] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] And I was taught, well, if that happens, then the church is true. That's what I meant, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:07:08] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] And that, and that when that happens, it feels really compelling.

Daniel Spencer [01:07:15] Yes. Yeah. Well, and that was, the thing is I feel like the fact that I turned to DNC of all places, I feel like there's a lot of situations in DNC that's like, give everything. People are asking for donate, give everything. So yeah, it was, it was, it was so weird to me to be like, weird that I didn't turn to a Book of Mormon verse but I turned to D and C instead.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:07:35] So yeah, again, that's probably one. I think that's the only instance where I can't like really explain it. I'm like, that was wild. But yeah, yeah, sure. Okay.

Pre-Mission Faith and BYU Plans

John Dehlin [01:07:46] So anything else you want to share about your kind of pre mission experience as a Mormon. Mormon kid that's relevant to your faith journey or life journey?

Daniel Spencer [01:07:55] No. Yeah, that's about it.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [01:07:57] Feels like.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] So your dad was a bishop at some point?

Daniel Spencer [01:07:59] Yeah, I think, I can't remember if he was a bishop like twice growing up. But yeah, he was a bishop right as I was leaving on my mission actually, and when from like my 16 year old self to like when I left essentially. He was, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] And did your mom serve as relief study president?

Daniel Spencer [01:08:20] Yeah, she was prominently. She was primary president for so long and then I think she became Relief Society Stake Relief Society president kind of around the same time My dad was the bishop.

Samantha Shelley [01:08:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Okay. So your dad sends you on a mission. Where'd you, where'd you want to go and where did you end up going?

Daniel Spencer [01:08:40] It was interesting because I again, I feel like I had like converting moments, but I still was doing stuff that wasn't exactly like Mormon. The reason I stopped. Well, when I was 17, I drank my first like bit of alcohol. Right. I wanted to be. It was the first time I was included in like the popular kids circles. People started finding out I was funny. So I was like, hey, this guy's kind of cool. We like him. This is fun. There was girl and this is the first time I was confronted with like girls being interested in me. But in the last two years of high school we had a program because I went to an all boys school. We had a program where girls were introduced in the final or like the last two years of high school. And so I Was experiencing girls flirting with me and whatever, whatever. And so I acted the way I felt like I needed to act. Right. Like, I went to parties and they were like, have a shot, and I take a shot. And I didn't really feel, like, connected with it. I wasn't like, I need to drink. I was just kind of doing it because I was like, yeah, this is how regular teenagers act. And then in the last year of high school, I was like, maybe I should put this off. Maybe I should, like, actually be serious. Started having those moments of. With the missionaries on the exchanges. Wow, this is crazy. I, I, maybe this is real. Maybe God is, like, really kind of changing my life. I was fasting for the first time, and that was crazy. And then I pass exams, and I'd be like, it was because I fasted. And I was like, maybe you also, like, studied really well for that stuff, you know? And so I had, like, these, like, kind of converting moments, but never really was, like, fully into it. Right. Come up to the point where I need to leave for byu.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] I go to BYU a year before your mission.

Daniel Spencer [01:10:29] Yeah. Well, so in Zimbabwe, we graduate in December, technically. So we are from January to December. That's our school year. And so we technically graduated in January. I started attending BYU in spring semester. So I did spring, summer, fall, and then left. But.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] So BYU Provo.

Daniel Spencer [01:10:51] BYU Provo, Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] Your mom was more of a Ricks.

Daniel Spencer [01:10:55] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] Well, did she go to Ricks? You went to Ricks?

Daniel Spencer [01:10:58] Yeah, yeah, both of them went to Rick's. But my parents always told us about the magical Mormon school in the mountains. Right. They were like, it's amazing, and there's Taco Bell there, and you'll, like, love it. And I was like, yeah, this was great. And obviously we had visited. We had only visited America twice in my life. Once when I was 6 and once when I was 16. And when I was 16, I got to see my sisters move into, they went to, they moved into a place called Alpine Village, which was, like a very fancy. It was like the uppity, like, place.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:25] Wait, in Provo? Yeah, I lived there.

Daniel Spencer [01:11:27] Oh, really?

Samantha Shelley [01:11:28] Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:11:29] They had a plasma screen tv. Like, oh, the fancy place. Right? I don't know. Maybe you can do it.

Samantha Shelley [01:11:34] Like, it was all right.

Daniel Spencer [01:11:35] Yeah, like, that's fine. But so that was the thing is, I went to that college Experience.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] Experience.

Daniel Spencer [01:11:39] Where I was like, oh, this seems so cool. I want to come here, especially because people were like. And again, I had been kind of converted, so they were like a Mormon school. Would be great. That being said, I got. I had to choose, actually. I had to choose between. I had the opportunity to potentially attend NYU or byu. And I chose BYU because I was like. My parents were like, it's cheaper. You should do this. And I was like, yeah, but I want to be a writer and I want to do comedy. NYU feels good. And they were like, okay, but do you want to spend that much money? And I was like, no, no, I don't want to do that. So I made the decision to go to byu. And sometimes I think back on that and I'm like, what if I had just attended nyu? What if I had just gone to New York and just done the thing that I knew I wanted to do? I knew I wanted to do comedy. I knew I wanted to write. But, yeah, I was like, okay, byu. I guess I'll do byu. They have a fun animation program. We'll see what happens. I start doing all the classes, and I start attending with the guy that I was a hookup buddy with. We both go to BYU at the same time. And he starts, yeah, I guess. I mean, that's not my story to share. But he essentially does not do the BYU thing. He immediately finds people that are like, hey, let's party. Let's have some fun. But all in secret, at byu, I am very much like, no, I'm just going to chill. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to just be a good Mormon in and amongst that process. We come to general conference in fall semester, and Thomas S. Monts announces the age change. And at this point, I've partied with the guy that I came with from Zimbabwe. We have been, like, going out to clubs. I haven't been doing anything but just going out to stuff and, like, partying. But in full semester, I feel like it suddenly became this big movement of, like, if you're not serving a mission, then what are you doing? They just changed the age. Like, how dare you not go and serve? So I start putting in all my papers at this point.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] This is. You say this is 15.

Daniel Spencer [01:13:51] This is 2012. 2012, yeah, this is 2012. And so I essentially was like, I guess we're going to do this thing now. Like, let's see how this goes. I put in my papers. I've also, like, while we're at byu, we don't hook up at all. The last time we hook up was when we were just about to leave to byu, I think, or just before, like, somewhere around the Christmas of 2011. And so I'm like, okay, I've waited long enough. They keep interviewing me and being like, have you ever done, like, homosexual stuff? I'm like, no. I keep using the defense mechanism. No, I'm fine. I was like, God will forgive me eventually. Like, I just. I can't say it out loud. I don't want to say it out loud or else I'm going to have to wait because I remember. Sorry. I remember having the conversation with the bishop. Well, they had a giant meeting in Aldous Quorum where it was the bishops and stake presidents being like, this is the amount of time you have to wait. If you've committed a sin and if you've like, masturbated, it's a few months. If you've watched porn, it's like six months. If you've had sex, it's a year. If you've had homosexual sex, it's two years. And I was like, right now you want me to wait? As the age change stuff is happening and people are like, if you're not serving a mission, ew, you're gross. So I was like, I don't want to be like, shame to byu. I like, I feel like I have to go right now or else, like, people are going to be like, really? Like, not with it, you know? So I keep saying no. Like, have you had sex with a man? No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:15:32] Had you ever come out to anyone as gay ever up to this point?

Daniel Spencer [01:15:36] No.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] Really?

Daniel Spencer [01:15:37] First person I ever came out to was my mission president.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [01:15:41] Because I get on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] Where'd you get called?

Daniel Spencer [01:15:45] Oh, Vancouver, Canada, bc.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Nice.

Daniel Spencer [01:15:48] Yeah. Oh, very beautiful. And I got to see most of it, which was wonderful. I'm about like four and a half months in. One of my MTC buddies, we had become friends, he confessed to some stuff and went home and emailed me about it and was like, hey. Around the three month mark was like, hey, just so you know, I've gone home. If you want to contact me, here's my regular email. But yeah, I don't know, we'll see if I come back up. And I was like, huh, interesting. And suddenly it's on my mind. I'm like, the three month transfer mark, the mission president's wife gets up and is like, well, if you have not repented of something that you needed to repent of, you will not be a good missionary, period. Like, you will not be a good missionary. And so I'm like, oh. So it just preoccupies my mind, the whole transfer.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] Explain to let's just say never Mormons.

Daniel Spencer [01:16:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] Why that's so heavy for a Mormon missionary? Well, in terms of like people's potential eternal salvation, right?

Daniel Spencer [01:16:55] Yes. Yeah. Well, it was mainly because I was like, so my first two transfers was with a guy who was very high energy and very like, yeah, let's go out and do this stuff. And I felt very good and we were seeing success. But my, my three month transfer, I was with a guy who was very low energy and I found out later that he was like, oh, I broke him. I wanted to break him of his, like, weird, like, we need to go out and like, do stuff. He was like, I wanted to make sure that he wasn't feeling that way. And so I basically was feeling down. It was the first time I was experiencing depression in that way ever. Like I was feeling bad about not helping people come into Christ and like live the gospel. I wasn't seeing investigator numbers pop off. I wasn't seeing like baptisms. I wasn't seeing any sort of success. And so I felt like I was directly the problem suddenly. Right. And especially after the mission president wife said that stuff at the transfer meeting, I was like, it's me. I'm the issue. I'm such a problem that now we're not seeing any success. It isn't that I'm not like talking to enough people. It isn't anything where I'm just not going to see success unless I actually repent.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] And, and there's, there's an episode that we'll refer to in the show notes where there was a missionary who felt so bad about not achieving success on the mission, tying it to his own, in his case, masturbation.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] He felt so much guilt and shame that he was depriving non Mormons of their potential salvation.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Because of what he felt was his own wickedness.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] That he actually had the thoughts that he wanted to chop off his, his penis.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:40] Really?

John Dehlin [01:18:41] Because he had that level of guilt that his supposed wickedness was preventing others from, from returning to live with God.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:51] So I mean, that's an extreme example,

Daniel Spencer [01:18:52] but I mean, but that's. That, that's how you think. Right. It's weird because you suddenly go to those extremes and again, I'm going through for the first time my conversion process. I've never read the Book of Mormon fully through. I had never read it until my mission. And suddenly I am, I'm surrounded by the gospel in Zimbabwe. I had never experienced that. Right. BYU is the first time I was surrounded by Mormonism and the Culture of Mormonism and how to think and feel. Feel. And so people are telling me a lot of stuff of, like, this is how you're supposed to feel about it. You're supposed to feel so bad. Why are you not feeling bad about your sins? Ew. Like, you're gross. This is bad. This is disgusting. I missed the portion. Sorry. I just realized I missed a portion. An important portion of my story. But I'll tell it afterwards.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] You can go back. Whatever you want. Whatever you want.

First Temple Experience and Mission Call

Daniel Spencer [01:19:43] Well, yeah, maybe I should just express this because this was my. Honestly, a huge converting moment for me was my first temple ceremony. Oh, yeah, my aunt.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] So this is right before your mission?

Daniel Spencer [01:19:57] Right before my mission, yeah. And this is the reason I think I felt so bad. I was about to go to the temple and again, it's. It's shrouded in mystery. I remember being 17 and wanting to know what my parents did in the temple. And I remember pulling out this temple suitcase and being like, what is going on? What is happening? And I remember opening the suitcase and seeing all the white clothing and I was like, okay, like, this is just like baptismal clothes. And then I remember opening the secret, like, pocket and seeing the apron and seeing all the stuff and being like, what the. What the heck? And I remember one time looking up because I think it had been released on YouTube. Some guy had filmed it. I had started watching it and then I was like, no, I'm not gonna watch. I'm not gonna sit through this whole thing. I'll figure it out eventually. But I'm prepping to go to the temple. My aunt is like, hey, treat it like a literature lesson. Don't go in there thinking anything or feeling anything. Just like, what you want to do is go in completely open minded and learn what you need to learn. So I was like, okay. And she was like, my favorite thing to do is to open up to random scriptures in the temple as you're waiting in the waiting room and see what God wants to tell you. So I'm sitting, I'm sitting there. I'm about to get the washing and anointing done. Oh, no. I get the washing and anointing done. And the night before, I spend a little bit of time being like, I still haven't repented of what I did with the guy, but it's been a year, so I think I'm okay. It's been a year, it's fine. I go into. I get the washing and anointing and I'm like, oh, this is so great. This is so fun.

John Dehlin [01:21:47] You didn't. You didn't hate the washing and anointing?

Daniel Spencer [01:21:50] I was nervous I was going to have to be naked. Honestly, I was like, are men going to touch me? Because that's going to be a concern because I'm gay. Like, I was like, I do not want to, like, get a boner in the temple.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:03] Right.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:03] Like, I was so nervous that that was going to be the case. And I was like, oh, hopefully the man is, like, old and gross, because, like, then I won't be attracted.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] Right.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:11] But I was just super, super, super nervous about, like, am I going to be able to control my sexual urges around this? And then they just, like, doused my head, and I was like, oh, that's not as bad as I thought it was. So I think that was the reason why it wasn't necessarily weird for me initially was I was just like. I was expecting it to be, like, insane, and it wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] When I went through, they. They did touch your loins when you were naked with.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:34] Really?

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:35] Okay. And that's what I heard. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Because that's how my dad kept describing it. And I was like, yeah, I do not want to do that.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] But at some point, they took that out.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:44] Because it was so weird. They would touch your breasts naked. They would touch your loins naked.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:48] Where are your.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:49] I didn't know.

Samantha Shelley [01:22:50] When you say touch the loins, what does that mean?

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Yeah. It wasn't your actual penis.

Daniel Spencer [01:22:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] It was like. It was like, think about your groin area. Like, where you would have a hernia incision.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:00] Yeah, right there.

Samantha Shelley [01:23:03] Touch your boob somewhere.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] Breast. Like. Yeah, there's. It was like. It was like, anoint your head, Anoint your breast. Anoint your loins. It wasn't. It wasn't erotic for me.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:15] But it was super uncomfortable to have some old dude touching me in different parts of my naked body with oil. But also, we would wear a poncho. It wasn't. Later they sewed up the poncho, so it was almost like a. Like a marshmallow closed on the sides kind of thing. Or a pillowcase with the head cut out or something. But when I was going through. Think of. Think of. Literally, you're, like, 19, and you're wearing just a sheet.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] It's got a hole, kind of like Charlie Brown like, sheet over your head where your head's popping out, but your sides are completely exposed. Yeah. And then this old dude is touching different parts of your body with his Finger anointing you with oil. Again, I wasn't abused, but like, he was touching my body with his finger. With oil.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Under a sheet with my naked body.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:02] And it's not like you can be like, no thanks.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] Oh, no. This is God's most sacred ordinance and this is the pinnacle of your Mormon spiritual experience. So you're like feeling super weird and feeling like you're supposed to think it's the most spiritual thing. Now again, what's weird is this whole temple ceremony where we were taught was revelation straight from God to the prophet. And then like as soon as evangelicals started embarrassing Mormons about how creepy and weird and uncomfortable the temple ceremony was and how Masonic it was.

Daniel Spencer [01:24:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] Then all of a sudden they took out a lot of those creepy parts and sewed up the poncho on the sides because people were exposing it on YouTube and that sort of thing. So you guys were saved some kind of really traumatic and troublesome things that. That I and others my age weren't.

Daniel Spencer [01:24:52] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:24:53] That would have been horrifying. It was already nerve wracking enough. Like, what bra am I allowed to wear? And like, am I gonna have to be naked under the poncho?

Daniel Spencer [01:25:01] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:02] Even with it being closed, there's a lot of stuff there.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:25:04] It was just weird to like. Yeah. To even have that, like, preoccupy your mind as well was so, like, interesting to have to be like, okay, I guess this is just gonna have to be my sacred and spiritual moment. I can't imagine what it would have felt like. But I think that's why it was so prominently on my mind was I was just like, a guy's gonna have to touch me naked. And I think how I thought about it was like, if I remember correctly is like, Satan wants me to make it a sexual thing. And I'm not going to. I'm not going to make it a sexual thing. And then they had anointed my head and I was like, oh, that's it. Like period. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] That was the abbreviated.

Daniel Spencer [01:25:38] Yeah, I was like, oh, okay. Well, I guess it's just like a blessing then. And so, yeah, I'm sitting after the washing and anointing and I open up the scriptures and immediately goes to. I think it's Alma 5. It's like, sexual sin is an abomination. And I was like, after. I've just prayed and I've been like, God, just like, show me what you want to tell me. And I'm scared. I was like, ugh, that was a Mistake. I'm gonna reopen it again. And so I skipped through, and I keep turning to pages about sexual sin, and I'm like, what is that?

Samantha Shelley [01:26:14] Is this a temple copy of the scriptures?

Daniel Spencer [01:26:16] I think so.

Samantha Shelley [01:26:17] Do you think people just open to those pages?

Daniel Spencer [01:26:18] Well, and that's the thing is, I think people were just, like, turning to prominent scriptures, and I just happened to be finding the ones that were like, oh, don't do that.

John Dehlin [01:26:26] You know, it's an interesting epistemology. When I was growing up, there's this thing called the Magic 8 Ball. Have you guys ever seen a magic gate ball? Yeah, like, shake the Magic 8 ball. And it's like, oh, you'll have a good day. Shake the Magic 8 ball. And it's an interesting epistemology to believe that the church's truthfulness or validity is manifested through random searching through the scriptures and whatever you happen to read. As a psychologist, and I'm not trying to interpret your experiences for you, but as a psychologist now or as someone who's trained as a psychologist, like, there's. There is an element of confirmation bias where you're going to see the things you're thinking about and looking for, and you're going to, like, not remember all the times that maybe you did do that and nothing important happened. But when it does hit, it can be really memorable again. That's not to tell you it was or wasn't of God, but there is an element of psychology at play here.

Samantha Shelley [01:27:18] Yeah. And I feel like there's a way that. That can be positive. Like, I like to dabble in tarot, not because I believe that, like, I am being sent this one specific card by a deity, but just because the tarot deck I have is full of positive messages. And it's just like, you know, let's just see what positive message I'm gonna absorb today. There's, like, we're meaning making machines. So there's ways that. That's not necessarily a bad thing because it's kind of tapping into the wisdom that we already have within us. And it was obviously on your mind. Yeah, like, I'm a sexual sinner in this case. Obviously not so fun.

Daniel Spencer [01:27:49] Well, and I do the same thing with tarot now, too, is I just. I. And that's the thing. It was so on my mind that I look back on it. I'm just like, I wanted to see. I think I wanted to see that. Which is weird, right? It's weird that that's what I was, like, almost desiring to see in some way. Or just trying to find meaning in.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] Well, you would have been feeling guilt and you would have wanted to, you know, be cleansed of your guilt or resolve it so you didn't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of your guilt.

Daniel Spencer [01:28:15] Yeah, right. And so, and that was, it was just so weird, especially as a 19 year old. Well, and it was hard because my aunt had paid for us to go to the temple. So we're sitting in South Africa and I'm suddenly confronted with, I don't think I can go through with this ceremony. I don't think I can like do this. And I'm getting nervous because they keep asking me like, do you want to continue? Or like, if you don't feel worthy, don't do this. And I'm like, I guess I'm going to have to keep going. But I keep like praying to God and repenting and being like, please God, please let me like get through this thing. I want to like be better. I promise I won't do this again. I promise I won't do this again. And then I turn randomly to a page in. No, no I didn't. My mom handed me some scriptures and was like, read this dnc, good old dnc always coming through and giving me some messages. I think it was like DNC 121 or 123. And I read it back now and I don't know where I got the, any of this meaning from. And so I think that's like kind of the confirmation of like, you saw what you wanted to see for me. But I look, I look at the scripture and it's like you are forgiven your sins and like you will eventually have to repent, but not right now. But if you ever commit sins, you will be a servant of Satan or something like that. And I was like, okay, cool. God's forgiven me for now.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:41] Your mum handed you that specific scripture?

Daniel Spencer [01:29:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:44] Do you think she had an inkling of anything?

Daniel Spencer [01:29:46] Worry? I, it didn't feel she wanted me to read just one of the scriptures I kept reading and that's where I found like all the meaning. And I was like, so because there's

John Dehlin [01:29:56] always this experience or trope of like a kid that was gay.

Daniel Spencer [01:30:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] And everybody kind of knew in the back of their minds he was gay, but nobody ever talked about it and it was never discussed. Yeah, I mean there's that possibility.

Daniel Spencer [01:30:11] Exactly. Well, and that's interesting that you bring that up because I don't know if I've ever talked to my mom about that. We've We've had, like, small discussions here and there about just like, they know. They all knew, right?

John Dehlin [01:30:21] They did, yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:30:23] They all. Well, they guessed at it. I mean, again, they're dealing with the son who's like ponies and Barbies when I was like, much, much younger.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:29] Right.

Daniel Spencer [01:30:30] But at the same time, they, yeah, they all knew that I was like, slightly different. They just had kind of were hoping that it wasn't the case. They were like, we hope that he is who he says he is. And that's maybe if ignored, it'll go away. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so just kind of dealing with that. It's. It's weird, right? But, yeah. So I'm sitting there, I open the scriptures, I pray, I repent, and I'm like, God's forgiven me, but I do have to repent at some point is what I took the meaning to mean. And so I should just say that,

John Dehlin [01:31:07] like, one of the most brutal parts of Mormonism by far is when a Mormon missionary kid goes to the mtc, the missionary training center, having not repented of sexual sin, but the pressure cooker of shame and guilt makes that Mormon missionary confess in the missionary training center after they've had the missionary farewell and everybody sends them off. Yeah. And then they're. Then they're told they have to go back home kind of in that shame parade.

Daniel Spencer [01:31:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] And like repent for 6 months or 12 months to. Then it'll be decided if they're allowed to return to their mission. The missionaries that are actually honest, and I'm not saying you weren't honest, because I think it's an abusive system, but the missionaries who are honest about their unrepentant sexual sin in the mtc. That's some of the most horrific stories I've ever heard.

Daniel Spencer [01:31:57] Yeah. Well, so I was a security guard at AMTC Post Mission, and the amount of times we had to talk, it was weird. We had to be almost be like little therapists for kids at times, because you'd be walking through one of the dorms and suddenly you come up to a random kid crying, and you're not allowed to, like, from what we were taught. We just had to kind of be like, just wait till tomorrow. Talk to someone tomorrow. Like, it'll be fine. Go to bed. You can't do anything about it right now. But let's. Let's deal with this later, essentially. But you had to kind of be a little bit of a. Like a midnight therapist for a lot of kids who were going through that. And I didn't know that until I started working at the mtc that, like. Well, we also dealt with runaways, kids that were just like, I'm done. I can't. I can't confess. I can't bring myself to talk to my stake president. They're not listening to me. And I only had that twice. But we dealt with so many others, and, you know, my co workers would deal with regular. I'm not gonna say it was like, constantly regular, but regular enough that we all talked about it and we're like, so, yeah, did you hear about so and so who had to talk to the missionary who was crying last night? Oh, yeah, that's crazy. And none of us, like, thought deeper about it. None of us were like, hey, maybe that's, like, a bad thing. Maybe, like, that's something that, like, we should address. It was just like, shame. Poor kid. I guess he's just not well. Then that was the weird part. People being like, he's just not strong enough or like, he probably was sinning. Shame. He wasn't. He didn't repent. As opposed to being like, it's really bad that that kid had to go through that much trauma, and we are not doing anything about it. Like, it's so insane. So insane. And again, I can kind of relate to it. But that being said, I only really started thinking about it after the fact. Well, my first transfer, I did tell my companion at one point, it crossed my mind in a sacrament meeting where I was like, maybe now is the time to repent. And I asked my companion. I was like, because he had left the mission for sins and then came back, and I think he shared his testimony. And then I was like, so what is that? Like, he's like, why are you. Why are you asking? And I was like, oh, no reason. No reason. Just. Just curious. Curious what it's like for you. You the guy who sinned, you know, and so I just wanted to develop empathy for. I just. I really care about your story. It sounds like you did a lot of stuff, so I don't know, it's

Confessions and Sexual Identity on the Mission

John Dehlin [01:34:32] like, to be, like, degraded, you know? Degraded.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:35] You know, isn't it interesting that we're talking about. You know, obviously you keep saying repenting, and by that you mean confessing.

Daniel Spencer [01:34:42] Yes.

Samantha Shelley [01:34:42] To, like, it's the confession. Because it's like you hadn't done it for a year. Sounds like you're very repentant in your heart. Not looking to do it again anytime soon.

Daniel Spencer [01:34:49] No. Well, that was the thing. I.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] That's a good point.

Daniel Spencer [01:34:53] You Know, well, I'll share it after I share the full experience. But I was. I was very, very sorry for what I had done. Right. I was trying so hard. Like, the. The fact that for a solid year, I made sure that it didn't cross my mind. Like, I just, like. Other than the occasional watching of porn at byu, I didn't like, have any desire to really, like, express that way. I wasn't trying to be gay. I wasn't trying to look for stuff. I had a guy who I ended up finding out was a roommate who was gay, and we could have done stuff, but I didn't want to. I was like, I know that I want to serve a mission and blah, blah, blah. Right?

Samantha Shelley [01:35:36] Your heart was changed.

Daniel Spencer [01:35:37] It was. It was changed by the whole experience of just being like, I want to be quote, unquote, better. Right? And. And so, like, again, leading up to this point, it's. We're at transfer meeting, I get a new companion, and I'm just, like, racked with guilt. And that's, I think, a good word, right, Is suddenly just being. It was my first time being like, I am so guilty, I can't think about doing anything else. I am, like, crying in the pew. My companion, who's a new companion, is like, what is going on with this kid? He's about to finish his mission. I am just, like, bawling and being like, I need to do this thing. What's going to happen? Blah, blah, blah. It transfer meeting ends, and the mission president has, like, a whole bunch, like, a ton of other missionaries he's meeting with. But my companion's like, what's going on? I was like, I need to meet with him, period. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I need to meet with him. He was like, okay, we'll wait, I guess, but we have to catch a ferry. And they. I was like, okay, but I. I want to do this because I'm serving in Victoria, but we're in Vancouver. So we're sitting, we're chilling. Eventually I just tell all the other missionaries. I was like, I need to talk to him. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I know you guys also have to talk to him. But they're all like, I go through. I went and asked every missionary in the line. I was like, what are you talking to him about? It's like, I don't know, just something, like, really fun. I was like, okay, not important.

Samantha Shelley [01:37:10] For me, it's gay sex.

Daniel Spencer [01:37:13] Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, interrogating People being like, how important is everyone? Is everyone confessing or is this my mom? Yeah, stuff like that. I'm like, okay, I need to do this because I have a fairy to catch. And I use that as the excuse. I was like, I have a fairy and I have something I really need to talk to him about.

John Dehlin [01:37:30] I have a fairy and no, I'm not gonna.

Daniel Spencer [01:37:33] Oh, not me. I would never repent. Not me. I also miss my mom, I guess. Something like that. Right? So. And I just remember he finishes with one this elder's crying and he walks out the door. And my mission person, like, closes the door. We didn't even like, sit down. He was like, what do you need to talk to me about? I haven't like sat down. I'm just like, I think I. I didn't say I think. I just remember like word vomiting and being like, so I had gay sex before my mission actually, and I need to repent of that. And I remember my mission president being like, okay, I don't think we have time for this right now. I'm gonna call you tomorrow. Yeah, I sorry, we don't have time to sit and do this. I need to call you tomorrow. Is that okay? And I was like, yes, that's fine. So he's like, okay, make sure that you're in a private place and your companion doesn't hear what you're saying. But yeah, we'll talk about this tomorrow. Anyway, we hop on the ferry, we get back to it. I am just sad, right? Like, I am just like, I don't know what's going to happen. I might get sent home. I'll probably get sent home because it's gay sex. The next day comes, no phone call. So I'm like, oh, no. Next day comes, no phone call. And then the next day comes and finally we're on the street. We're just walking around, contacting, and my mission president calls and I was like, oh, Spencer, like, find a private place where you can talk. And we will, we'll figure this out. So I was like, okay. He's like, just make sure you're with an eyesight of your companion. Like, okay. I remember sitting on a street corner and he's like, okay, how extensive was this? And so I was like, I start telling him on the street and he's like, where are you right now? And I was like, I'm on the street. And he's like, okay, I need you to go back to your apartment and give me a call back. And I was like, okay. And we're close enough to the apartment that I was like, we can do that. So we run home. My companion sits. We had like two separate. We had like a three bedroom area. So it was like kitchen, bathroom, and then bedroom sort of like set up. It was really weird. So he sat in the living room and we had like the bathroom in between. And then me confessing in the other room. And so I went through the whole process. Went through and like told him everything. And he's asking me all the, like, very detailed questions, like, how extensive was it? What happened? What was the process? Like, did you ever do this? Did you ever do that? Where did he touch you? Blah, blah, blah. Which. That.

John Dehlin [01:40:12] Did that feel? How did that feel? Because there's the. Sometimes there are people who have felt like when a leader's asking them details, you know, did you orgasm? Was it over the clothes, under the clothes? Did you enjoy it? That sort of thing? That it felt, well, number one, like a huge violation of boundaries. But. But even sometimes, like it was abusive in some way. How did it feel for you?

Daniel Spencer [01:40:39] It. I. I will say that it was not. It was not a negative experience. I had a lawyer as a mission president at the time, and I would say that he handled it very sensitively. And I think he wasn't actually so detailed in the like, was it under. Was it over? He was just asking like the right kind of questions, I feel like kind of questions that I think a mission president should ask someone in those situations. Of like, it wasn't necessarily like, how many times have you orgasmed? He was just like, did it happen? How many times did it happen till completion? And I was like, X amount of times. And he was like, okay, interesting. How long did it happen? And so it was just like, he didn't go so into detail that it felt like an intrusion of like my privacy. That being said, it was still intrusive. Like, it's still. The fact that he was still asking the intrusive questions were weird. But in retrospect, like, in retrospect, but now. But like, thinking back on the moment, I would say that it still felt good because it was the first time I was saying out loud I've done something gay. Right? Like, that was the other thing though. He was like, are you gay? And I was like, no, no, I want to get married to a woman. Oh yeah. I definitely. I remember him asking me, like, do you still want to go through the temple with a woman? And I was like, yes. What he ended up doing was sharing his testimony of how he has Sat through multiple. He was like, when I was a stake president, I sat through multiple interviews with guys just like you who were nervous before their wedding days if they could do it. And they all have done it. So, like, you'll be fine. And I like. And yeah. And that was where my. My testimony of it being like, oh, like, I don't know, accomplishable were, like, kind of came from. Was like, my mission president said it was like, so many dudes do it, so therefore I must be able to do it too.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] It's funny. He went straight to mixed orientation. Marriage.

Daniel Spencer [01:42:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] When you're confessing sins.

Daniel Spencer [01:42:35] Well, it felt like that. And that's the weird thing. It feels like a lot of people jump to that when you tell them you're gay. They're like, well, at least when I was Mormon, like, a lot of people were like, and don't worry, I know tons of people that are doing it right now. And I'm like.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] Meaning gay guys who are marrying straight women.

Daniel Spencer [01:42:51] Yeah. Gay guys who are marrying straight women and loving it. And loving every moment of it.

John Dehlin [01:42:55] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:55] I had a gay ex boyfriend at byu, Idaho.

John Dehlin [01:42:58] He loved.

Daniel Spencer [01:43:01] Was. Yeah. So it was just really. It was really interesting. He. It also happened to fall on right before conference weekend. So I remember going into that conference weekend being like, nothing can kill my vibe. I felt like a weight off my shoulders.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:17] So he wasn't sending you home?

Daniel Spencer [01:43:18] Well, so that's part of it. He was just like, we have to. He was like, this is gonna be a process I have to figure out. I have to talk to higher ups, essentially. I don't know if this is gonna be okay. This isn't something I can make a decision on.

Samantha Shelley [01:43:32] Presumably the fact that a year had passed kind of worked in your favor.

Daniel Spencer [01:43:36] Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think. Well. And at this point, it's like a year and a half at this. So he's like, it's been a. Like a good period of time. And it sounds like you're sorry. Same sort of thing. He's like, your intent. It sounds like you are feeling bad about this. And it does sound like you really have been trying to do much, much better. And he was like. And it sounds like teenage stuff. He was like, that's how he was referring to it. He was like, it sounds like just like teenage experimentation. And I was like, yes. Yeah. It's. Oh, it's that. Yeah. I never kissed him, like, again. And I think that worked in my favorite, too, is he's like, did you kiss? And I was like, never. It was Just sex stuff. Like, it was just us getting off and that's it.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Like, something that. That maybe never. Mormons aren't just gonna get. Is. I referred to this earlier. Like, first of all, according to the Mormon hierarchy of sin, gay sex is way worse than heterosexual sex, even outside the bond. I think.

Daniel Spencer [01:44:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] That's what I would have been taught.

Daniel Spencer [01:44:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] It was. Compared to bestiality and.

Daniel Spencer [01:44:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:35] Perversions. And, like, you would never hear heterosexual teenage sex described as a perversion.

Daniel Spencer [01:44:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:43] But I would have heard of gay sex all the time being taught as a perversion. So clearly you had performed the worst type of sex you could possibly perform throughout all your childhood. And there would be a kid, a straight Mormon kid, who in the MTC confesses1.1 sex, one time with the. With the opposite sex, and it could ruin their whole lives.

Daniel Spencer [01:45:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] They get sent home, they get shamed. They don't return on their mission. Like, it can wash them out of Mormonism in the shame parade.

Daniel Spencer [01:45:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] And, like, because you lied and this isn't a bag on you, it's just how fraught the system is with this kind of, you know, bishop roulette leader. Roulette. You lied, did all this gay sex as a team went a full year on your mission.

Daniel Spencer [01:45:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] And tell us how it ended.

Daniel Spencer [01:45:29] Well. Yeah. So that. Well, it's also just so interesting because I do feel like I did grow up with, like, perversion stuff. Right. Like, the Hinckley era was still kind of like, gay stuff is so bad. And then suddenly we had this, like, weird transition. Like, I remember being in the MTC and having a guy be like, I'm gay. And people were like, there's a gay missionary in the MTC with us. And everyone was like, oh, wow. So crazy that he'd be so open about this stuff. But it was weird. Anyway, I wait like, a solid, like, week and a half, and as. As I'm waiting, I'm obviously feeling so good again. It's just kind of like it's the first time I've told someone that I've been gay. So I'm like, I feel good. This is the spirit telling me that I am feeling good about this. God has told me, like, I am repentant. And I was like, is this is what repentance feels like? I love this. Turns out it was just therapy. I was just like, I'm being true to myself.

John Dehlin [01:46:26] Not living in the closet.

Daniel Spencer [01:46:27] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Anymore.

Daniel Spencer [01:46:30] And so I'm not gonna say it was like an easy moment, like, the companion that I had Was not like the best companion for what I was feeling. Cause I was feeling overly motivated. I was like, I'm gonna go back to how I was. I'm gonna preach the gospel and suddenly success happens. But that's because I'm happy. And I'm like, happy to do what I want to do, essentially. Right. It's. It's very weird. It was a very interesting moment. Anyway, two weeks go by. I remember we were getting McDonald's and we just. We just finished McDonald's. I walk out feeling so good. Mission present calls. And he's like, elder Spencer, I need you to pack all your bags and I need you to come to Richmond. And I was like. And I just. I remember feeling very emotional. I remember feeling very sad. But I also remember feeling like, if this is the way it's supposed to be, then I will do that thing.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] I'll submit.

Daniel Spencer [01:47:29] Yep. Because I've done the right thing. I've made the right choice, I've repented. If I get shamed, which is so crazy that I had to be like, if people shame me, then that's on them. But I'm going to live the gospel. Like, if I have to be exposed to all this, like, emotional and societal torture from all of the Mormon community, great.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] That's the price you pay for your wickedness. And it's the. It's the way that you make it right is by experiencing all the shame. That's part of the. What's the word? To like, pay for something? Like atonement, I guess.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:00] Yeah. How you atone for your sins.

John Dehlin [01:48:02] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:03] And so I pack up my bags and they're like, you're going to go with this other missionary. And I remember I was. I get put on a ferry with another missionary who's also going home and had also confessed. And he had only been out like two transfers, I think. And he's just like. He had come from, I think, an flds. Sorry, this is a random side story, but he had come from an FLDS background. And we're sitting on the ferry and he's just like, yeah, my mom's or like my dad's third wife had done this thing. And he's like shouting this on the ferry. We're wearing like our missionary name tags. And I remember being very self conscious and being like, people are gonna think that we are not the church that does that stuff. And so I was like, I hope this isn't the case. But yeah, we. We don't address. What either of us have done is just like kind of just say like, well I guess we're. Both of, both of us are going home. Haha, crazy. What are we going to do when we go home? Right? But for him, he was told it's a for sure thing. He was like, you're going home, period. For me it was just like, pack your bags, you're coming to Richmond. So I get there and they're like, okay, this elder, the other elder has his airport stuff and he gets his ticket and everything. They're like, you have to wait a few days. So Elder is going home. We meet with the mission president real quick. It's like in passing. He's like, thank you for serving this mission. Thank you, Elder Spencer. I will talk to you in a couple days. We'll see what happens. You have to stay with the assistance though. So I guess like in that process he still was kind of dealing with 70/appostures, as far as I know. He told me it came up to the meeting and he told me essentially it went up to the Brethren. Whether that was the 70 or apostles, I don't know. But he was like, we talked to everyone. Your stake president, we had to do an extensive dive into your history. Your stake president feels very confident. Oh, I remember this well in my confession he was like, I have to talk to a bishop, but I can see that your bishop is your dad. And I, I remember like just bawling and begging him not to tell my dad. Like I was like, please don't tell my dad. Like don't tell him this stuff because it hurts. Like I was like, I don't want him, I don't want him to know. Right, Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] Oh, no apologies.

Daniel Spencer [01:50:32] So I just remember him begging. And so he was like, yeah, I won't. And he told my stake president, who I was also connected to. Like I felt like pretty connected in some way. But I was like, at least that's not my dad. He's like, we talked to your stake president. He said you're very apologetic and he understands the situation and he knows the other guy. So he's like, yeah. And he asked me one are you okay if we go and like ask the other guys, leaders at BYU to ask him if he's done this stuff and are you willing to like help him repent? And I was like, oh, I have to rat him out. I have to tell on this guy. Because he was like, he's at byu, right? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, are you willing to tell us what happened? And I was like, I guess, I guess so. I was like, I have to make the right choice. So I was like, yes, his name is so and so. Here you go. And I remember just feeling really guilty, but also being like, this is the right decision. I have to do this or else I'm also still unrepentant.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] And so that's total, like, prisoner's dilemma vibes, right?

Daniel Spencer [01:51:53] Yeah, well, yeah, it's just like, there's no win win in there. It's just like, either you tell us who this guy's, this guy's name, or like, we can't really, like, do anything about it. So I was like, okay, well, there you go. So I give him all these details in and amongst all these, like, days of just waiting and waiting and waiting, and he's like, okay, cool. And I think I waited one more day. And then I went into the interview and he was like, okay, we've made the decision that you're going to stay in the mission. The brethren feel like you're apologetic. They feel like you've repented. You're allowed to stay, but we will have to make sure that you're still willing to get sealed in the temple to a woman. We need to make sure that you're still doing all this stuff. So that he asked me all these intense questions, and I just remember being grateful that I didn't have to go home. I do remember, like, messaging my parents because P Day was over that period of time. Being like, I'm in Richmond right now. I might be coming home. Just so you guys know. Like, it might be the case. I just confessed to some stuff. I hope you guys are okay with that. They were like, we still love you. We still care about you. Whatever happens, we're here for you. So I was still happy. I was like. I was like, no matter what happens, my family will support me, but I got to stay. And it was a moment of, I feel motivated to be a good missionary. I feel motivated to stay in the Gospel. Clearly, it could have been a lot worse. But I also look back at that, and I'm like, there was a lot of stuff working in my favor, but also I think the fact that they, like, I had told them it was illegal in Zimbabwe to be homosexual. And there's other things. I think there's a lot of factors in that where I'm like, I think there were factors as to why they shouldn't. Also, like, the tickets are, like, $4,000 to Zimbabwe at least at that time, right? So I was like, there's a lot of factors leading to the point of, like, let's not send him home because it's probably a lot worse for him to kind of go back to that. Right. Especially a two year waiting period.

Mission Challenges and Coming Out to a Companion

Samantha Shelley [01:53:54] So I have so many thoughts about this. This is so interesting. But I also imagine being from Zimbabwe, like your community in Zimbabwe needs missionaries going out and coming back and having like the faith promoting stories. Like it's good for the Mormon community for them to have a missionary stay out. You know what I'm saying?

Daniel Spencer [01:54:11] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:12] Like, return with honor.

Daniel Spencer [01:54:13] Exactly. And like, only as I look in retrospect to it, am I like, yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because I don't think I've ever thought about it that way.

John Dehlin [01:54:21] Also, your family was not an unimportant family within the Zimbabwe Mormon community. So if this comes out of the bishop, and I'm sure your grandfather had been what, a patriarch or stake president, all of those. Yeah. So, like, that's not going to be good for the church in Zimbabwe. So there's kind, Kind of a privilege element.

Daniel Spencer [01:54:40] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] To it.

Daniel Spencer [01:54:41] Yeah, I, I've never thought about it like, like that. Which is kind of crazy, which is my privilege showing. But like. Yeah, that's exactly. It is. It's just. Sorry, my mind is just being a little bit blown by that because it is such a. We were such a prominent family in the church and to have so many people look to us as like examples or so many. There's so many leaders that are related to me. And to have me come back and be like, especially in a prominent moment of everyone needs to go out. We need to have so many missionaries go out. I was one of the first to go out and so I think to have me come back. Yeah, I never even like, had taken that into account.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:19] It is interesting that you said that they kind of had you say like, yes, I want to marry a woman. That was like part of it.

Daniel Spencer [01:55:26] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:55:27] That's so interesting because the church has moved away from doing that. Right. And now they're not. They're like, we don't recommend marrying a woman to try and cure your gayness. But.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Yeah, but this is, again, with the

Samantha Shelley [01:55:37] nature of your family.

Daniel Spencer [01:55:38] Yeah, yeah. And well, I think it's just that, like, weird progression that we're dealing with where it's like, again, we had the Hinckley, like, I grew up with the Hinckley era of being like, this is bad. And I think like the introduction of Elder Christofferson and his brother and all of the sort of stuff coming out where they were like, oh, well, like gay people aren't bad. Like, it's not necessarily being gay is the sin. But I was like, I definitely grew up with people being like, gay people are perverted, disgusting. It's all the abuse they've experienced in their life and it's all the. Right. Like all these weird narratives and suddenly they change it to like, I'll just like, we can still be kind to gay people. We can still be like, okay with gay people. Like, it doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] Like, we grew up with the abomination narrative. Yeah. Being gay is an abomination. That's a strong word.

Daniel Spencer [01:56:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:22] Or a perversion.

Daniel Spencer [01:56:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] Yeah. And that changed just like seven years ago. So it's 2022 now. We're talking 2014. 2015.

Daniel Spencer [01:56:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:32] Where the church with the Mormon and gays website because of all the bad social media exposure.

Daniel Spencer [01:56:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:38] The church realizes it needs to stop overtly recommending conversion therapy. Stop overtly recommending celibacy. Stop overtly recommending mixed orientation marriages. Stop claiming that it was a choice. Stop claiming overtly that it was defective parenting or some type of abuse that led or hope or masturbation that led to the same sex sexuality. They need to back off all that toxic, sometimes deadly messaging. And let's not forget there was this massive spike in LGBTQ Mormon suicides between Prop 8 in 2008 and 2014. This is when Dan Reynolds and Tyler Glenn and me and others do the Believer documentary on hbo. And this is when I give my TED Talk saying, you know, this is. And start releasing the research that Dr. Bradshaw and I did talking about how celibacy was horrendous. On average, mixed orientation marriages had twice the divorce rates of normal ones with. With horrific quality of life ratings for both partners. And, you know, that's. That's what made the church change the messaging.

Daniel Spencer [01:57:44] But then again, I just go back to the importance of stuff like this, like podcasts like this. It's so interesting because even just talking to you guys and you bringing up the privilege aspect of it, I was like, it really is like a crazy system to have to deal with where we aren't like addressing like even just like culturally how different parts of the church work within themselves and saying like, hey, this kid is a part of a prominent family. Maybe we shouldn't send him home isn't like a conversation you think about, but it's like, yeah, that probably had to happen in some way, shape or form because they needed more missionaries to go out and say, hey, let's not Discourage more people from doing it. Like, it's so crazy when you think about all the little, like, intricacies that they had to put into it. And now changing the narrative of, like, gayness is all just part of the political or, like, the move to be like, well, we're not completely homophobic. And it felt like that during my mission. Like, it felt like that narrative was changing because, as I said, I had the gay missionary in the mtc, but it also felt like a lot of missionaries were starting to preach that it was okay to be gay. They were like, we don't, like, exactly hate gayness. We just don't want you to practice it. And so that's how I had to kind of, like, preach throughout the rest of my mission was like, I wanted to tell people I was gay, but I never did because I was like, I don't know if that's, like, important. I ended up having quite a few gay converts. And now that I'm gay and they're gay, we, like, talk to each other. We're like, so, like, we knew, right? Like, the gaydar was going off a little.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:13] Right?

Daniel Spencer [01:59:13] And they were like, yeah, for sure. Also, like, we just wanted to be friends with you because you were, like, also kind of gay. And I was like, no, thank you. Yeah, great. But it was. Yeah, it's so interesting to just look back on it in that way and just be like, yeah, that's. That's insane.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] You know, the teaching, the idea kind of evolved that it's. It's okay to be gay. It's just not okay to do gay. That's the way it was kind of framed.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:37] That's what I was taught coming into the church in 2010, in England especially, I imagine, as well, being in Canada versus Zimbabwe. It's like, they can't get away with the same kind of messaging.

Daniel Spencer [01:59:47] No, not at all. Well, and I think that's why we maybe had to be slightly more progressive in our messaging was just because it was like, Canada, especially B.C. like, liberal. B.C.

John Dehlin [01:59:56] was like, Canada had legalized gay marriage by then.

Daniel Spencer [01:59:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:59:59] And. Well, and that's the thing. We're dealing with so much stuff. Like the marijuana stuff. I remember we were dealing with a whole bunch of investigators who had medicinal marijuana as, like, an option. And so they had to go to their bishops and be like, well, these people are like, this is medicinal. This is medicine for people. And suddenly it wasn't like, okay, it's not bad. It's just not, like, the best option. So you can still go to the temple maybe. So don't discourage people from not smoking marijuana. And I was like, okay, I feel like I'm going through a lot of weirdness right now where I don't know where we actually stand. Like green. I remember that's when all the gospel topics essays came out. Was on my mission right at the very beginning. And so we had like all these like weird, like this is the hard stance on where everyone sits on. I think even like the was it. I think it was right at the beginning of my mission they actually like did the whole caffeine like addressing caffeine thing in the word of wisdom of being like, that is not the case. It is green tea, black tea, blah, blah, blah. And so it was just. Yeah, it was so interesting to have all of that happen during my mission. Suddenly all of these weird transitions where like the church had to be like, okay, that's not bad. Okay, also that's not bad. Okay, also that's not bad. Okay, this is fine. Yeah, it's not okay. Yeah, we did do that. We did do that horrible stuff. But not really like as bad as you think it is, right? Stuff was like, like it was all of this we had addressing. But I think that's the progression of honestly, like Internet access, access to information, like what you were exposing at the time. Because I feel like.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] And others. And others.

Daniel Spencer [02:01:41] Oh, definitely. I remember ordain women was a huge moment in my mission. Suddenly like, oh, women want to have the priesthood. This is so crazy. How could women want priesthood stuff? And I remember being like kind of judgmental and like this is crazy. A little bit of a confession. I went online during my P day and I was like, I want to know what this woman is like talking about. I'll look it up sneakily. And again, maybe that's a sin and whatever. But I wanted to know because I was like, this feels. I feel like I'm hearing a lot of one sided stuff. Right? And I have always been a person who's like, I was in the debate on the debate team and you have to look at both sides of the argument to understand how you argue your point. And that's how I've always approached stuff is I want to, I want to know how to approach this particular argument. And I remember looking at the stuff and being like, oh, she's just like wanting like equality is what she wants, like equal treatment guaranteed. Like how I saw it at the time was like, she's kind of going a little bit overboard maybe like with how she's expressing how she wants to do this, but at the same time I feel like it's okay to want what she wants, but God has made it this particular way, therefore you can't do that. And then the Gospel topics essays got released after the fact. And so I was like, okay, they're addressing it.

Race, the Priesthood Ban, and Mission Life

Samantha Shelley [02:03:04] So did you know about the Gospel topics essays on your mission?

Daniel Spencer [02:03:07] No. They didn't tell us until missionaries told me. Like, oh. Because I was, I was dealing with that for the first time. I, I don't know if I like, really understood the priesthood ban. I knew that like, black people weren't allowed to join the church, but I thought that that was part of like the political Rhodesian regime of like, well, like whites and blacks can't mix in societal spaces or like, like in communal spaces. So that's why they weren't allowed to be together. It was only on my mission that I realized or came to terms with the fact that like, hey, we have some really like, effed up teachings about black people again. I had never read the Book of Mormon fully. I came to the point in I can't remember what book it is where people are getting baptized in their skin color changes. And I was like, what, what is this? And I'm like, what's happening? And so I remember having a moment with my companion and being like, I don't like what's being said here. This is, this feels racist. And he was like, well, do you believe in God? Yeah. Do you believe in your testimony? Yeah. So then it shouldn't matter. And I was like, oh, what? So we just believe that God's gonna make people white in heaven? He's like, yeah. And I was like, I don't, I don't like that at all. Right? Like, I don't like feeling this way. And then I remember one guy when I was contacting being like, you guys are racist. You guys think that people are going to go to heaven and be turned white, right? Like, if they get baptized, they suddenly become white. And I remember trying to explain it and I couldn't. I remember being like, I don't know what to say. I, I. Because that's what we believe. Like, period. That's what we believe. And my companion had confirmed as much. He was like, yeah, like Bruce Amakonki has said that and Brigham Young has said that, and even members had told us that sort of stuff. And leading up to that point, I was just like, I am so frustrated. I don't know what's gonna happen. And they released the Gospel topics essays and they Were like, it was again, a very watered down version of what I think was supposed to be said, where they were like, Brigham Young was a bad person and he did say this, but he was still the prophet. So we should just approach it that way. There's stuff that like the man Brigham Young said, and then there's the stuff that the prophet Brigham Young said. And that's how we should say it. And so that's how I could do to teach it on my mission was like, he was a man crazy. But that was the first time I was ever confronted with information that I didn't believe in. I was like, I don't like this. This feels gross. And then that was furthered. I had a friend who I had started having lessons with. He was my best friend. He ended up dying while I was on my mission in a car crash. But him, he got converted three months into my mission and got baptized. And then his mom and his two sisters got baptized, I think like a year in. And he ended up going to LDS business college. And while he was there, he sent me an email and he was like, hey, Dan, like, I am having a weird time because I am suddenly like learning stuff about what profits say. And this was part of this whole process. And I was like, wait, like what? And he was like, well, my roommate the other day said he gave me the full story and basically how it went is sort of. It was like, hey man, I'm sorry I haven't talked to you for three months since you moved in. It's just like I've never been like around a black person before. And so like, that's been kind of weird for me. Also, I was taught my whole life that like black people were kind of like in between in the pre existence. Like they didn't kind of decide between Satan or Jesus's plan, but they kind of like last minute decided. And so they got burned by the veil. And that's why you guys are black.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Whoa. I've never heard burned by the veil. You heard that?

Samantha Shelley [02:07:02] Nope.

Daniel Spencer [02:07:03] He said they were burned by the veil. And so I was like, like their spirit color. Like, I don't know. He said that the body was burned and so I was like, that is like, honestly, I'm not gonna sugarcoat that one. That's just fucked up. Like, I was like, I don't know how to say. I don't know how to say sorry for that. Like if someone has actually taught that. And he was like. I laughed about it because he was like, he. He told me in the Email. He's like, I just had to laugh about it because he was like, how racist do you have to be to like make your gospel racist? And I was like, yeah, that's so crazy. And then I was like in the middle of learning all this stuff and I was like, oh, not fun. Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] The thing that I'm dying to just. And maybe you haven't really reflected on this, but like it's one thing for us in the United States to grapple with racism, but the, but the priesthood ban was centered on people. On, on black people of African descent.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:03] And you were an African.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] So there's a. And. And I think we've already addressed this. That when you were growing up, it just wasn't discussed.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] But like, to me I would imagine it would feel particularly personal having been born and raised in that continent.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:21] Where it's that continent that, where that particular skin color. Because. Because a, A really dark Mexican or a really dark, you know, Mongolian or a really dark even Brazilian.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] You know, or from, from Fiji. They were. Okay.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] Even prior to 1978. But if you were dark skinned from your particular continent where you, Daniel, were born and raised and your ancestors come from now, that's.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:48] That God doesn't want you people.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:52] Having the priesthood are attending the temple that I, that I would have struggled to process the Africa part.

Daniel Spencer [02:08:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:59] If I were you. Now that I'm not trying to project that onto you. But that's how I would have felt.

Daniel Spencer [02:09:03] No, that, that's exactly how I thought about it as well. Well, it just felt, it felt very targeted. Right. Like, that's all it felt like, especially growing up for me, like, I don't know. I. White people in Africa are so racist. And honestly, just like the culture around like white. White society in Zimbabwe was very prideful and judgmental and especially towards someone like me who was different because I wasn't the average like rugby playing jock as we've established. I was, I was the kid that like wanted to do a lot of like clubs like debate and Mun. And those were seen as like black particular things. Right. Like doing debate was like a black club. Playing basketball was like a black sport. Like white people weren't supposed to play it because you had to be playing rugby and you had to be playing cricket and you had to be playing water polo to be like a good white person technically. And so it was like this weird, it was this weird moment because I, I didn't like hanging out with white people for most of my like childhood Most of my friends were black in, in high school. And I hate saying that, being like, I have black friends, but I genuinely did. Like, I wasn't comfortable around white people because it felt like. It felt like they were just going to figure me out almost in some way, shape or form. Right. Like, they wanted me to be everything that I wasn't. Whereas, like, black people weren't really, like, judgmental about stuff. Right. And I felt like I could express myself where, like, black people in Zimbabwe are very, very, like, I don't know, like acting is an important part of it. Right. Like the culture, like singing and dancing, expressing art and creativity is, like, important in black culture. And I think it's deep rooted in the culture of Zimbabwean people. Right. Like, very much so. And so suddenly I've grown up all my life with all my black friends being absolute positive examples of just, like, good humanity. And I've been told all of a sudden on my mission that that's not the case. That. And again, there might have been discussions beforehand, but I'd never gone in depth until that point on my mission where it was like, the prophets were racist. Oh, like the apostles were like, very. Like some of them were so racist that they thought the veil burned them. You know, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] And so mentioned the Book of Mormon.

Daniel Spencer [02:11:31] Yeah. And exactly. And again, like, reading the Book of Mormon for the first time, actually reading it and being like, confronted. And I feel like a lot of my companions would ask me as a test. They'd be like, and what do you think about blacks in the priesthood, you and your Africanness? And I'd be like, I guess I have to just believe what the church believes. And they were like, good, good, you're a good missionary now. And I was like, that isn't. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. Like, I was like, just because I, like, believe or have to be. And that was the other thing I felt like I had to believe. It wasn't that I actually believed. I was just like, I guess this is something that I just kind of like, I don't have an understanding of and therefore just have to kind of accept. And that didn't feel good. It didn't feel right, you know, because it, it's just, it's. It's such a struggle for me still to this day, because that's one way I'm just like. You get angry, you know, like, so angry that like, so many people had to go through years and years of just persecution on top of the persecution that was already Coming. And there's still persecution in the church. Right. Like, I talked to so many black members. I. At MTC Security. It was really funny. We had so many Ghanaians working from Ghana. Yeah. People from Ghana working there. And so all of us were like, Africans. I was the only white African. But, like, there were so many Africans working at MTC Security. And we'd all just laugh about all the stupid stuff that we'd be asked because a lot of the Americans would ask the Africans, like, weird, like, can I touch your hair? What. What a beautiful dark complexion you have on you. Stuff like that all the time. But then I feel like I would get all the weird racist questions that they felt they couldn't ask a black person because they'd be like. Like, I don't know, stuff like, so, like black people. Are they as, like, loud as, like, people? And I was like, what the. What the fuck? Right? Like, just. This is so weird.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:23] I've heard that one before.

Daniel Spencer [02:13:24] Right? So stuff like that is just so, so random, so gross. And it's. It's deep rooted in the culture. And that was my first exposure to it was on the mission. Like, I had all these companions asking me how I felt and wanted to feel about these things. And I was just like, no, I feel bad. That's bad. That's a bad thing. And I didn't feel like I could express it that way or else I wasn't being righteous enough or I wasn't being faithful enough to the church. Or Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith, like, didn't want to do it. Or Brigham Young. Well, and that was the thing they always justified it with. Well, well, Joseph Smith wanted to get rid of slavery. Well, Joseph Smith, like, ordained one guy. And I was like, okay, cool. I guess I'll just have to use that as a justification for my faith. Like, okay, one guy's good enough, I guess, you know, but it just never. That's one thing that's never so sat right with me. And so, yeah, I'd say that was like the beginning point of, like, even kind of like my faith, like, shaking. But again, there was the. Put it on a shelf because you don't know what's going to happen. And we just have to kind of accept what we know.

John Dehlin [02:14:32] So this might be a good place to kind of take a break and then start after lunch break. But. But before I do that, I just want to at least. And Samantha, if you have other things you want to just highlight, like, you were raised in Africa.

Daniel Spencer [02:14:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] And it's not. And you Were raised Mormon your entire life.

Daniel Spencer [02:14:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] And you're now serving a mission as a. Like a salesperson, a representative for the church. And you're a year into your mission. You know, like, how long are you in before you start learning the very, very basics about what the church's actual history was, what the church's actual teachings were, and what the leaders had taught for decades? Not just taught, but there are multiple first presidencies that sign statements saying that the priesthood blend on the priesthood and temple ban on black people within the Mormon Church was doctrine.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:28] Not just policy.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:30] And there's something just so profound about how somehow the church's education system kept all that from you.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:40] As an African.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] For your entire life up to the point where they got you to pay.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:47] To go on a mission to sell the church to other people. That's a. That's a pretty profound accomplishment.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] To put it nicely.

Daniel Spencer [02:15:57] Well, and so that. That's. That. That's. I don't know. I. It. It feels. It feels weird to suddenly, like it. Well, not suddenly address it, but it felt weird to suddenly address it in those moments where it was just like, I have no choice but to stay out here. I just got lit. Like, I just confessed to my gayness, and now I am dealing with these confrontations. And that was the thing. I feel like I got put in situations where I had to help missionaries that were like, anti a lot of the time because they were like, well, I'll dispenser. He knows how to, like, help people because he's funny, but he also has done the same stuff as all these guys. He's going through the same kind of conf. Version. And I was like, no. Like, I don't want to be, like, that person for other people. Like, I don't want to have to, like, convert other people. Honestly, like, my advice in those moments was just like. Like, I was a zone leader for a long time on my mission as well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:53] Didn't hold you back.

Daniel Spencer [02:16:54] Nope. It was. Yeah. And that was a weird. Yeah, it was a weird part. Maybe you can double that after the break. But just the weirdness of being put in leadership positions and having to address people's concerns, and they're like, well, don't you have concerns? And I was like, just ignore it. In my opinion, Just ignore it. Ignore it till you get home. Like, what can you do? Ignore.

John Dehlin [02:17:17] Turn it off like a light switch.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:20] People who had been anti. Would racism be a part of that? Like, would that come up?

Daniel Spencer [02:17:24] No. No one else Was like. I was like, but the racism, right? And they were like, oh. I was thinking like, you know, like, Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter. I was like, okay, but the racism, like, we need to address the racism from Idaho.

Samantha Shelley [02:17:36] That part's fine.

Daniel Spencer [02:17:37] They're like, yeah, well, that's how it felt like I was like, am I the only one in the room? Am I the only one that like, cares about this sort of stuff? Because I did bring it up one time to, I think my mission president. I was like, it's just like a weird thing that I'm addressing. And he was like, what? Like, why? Why is that? Is that a concern for you? And I was like, no. Oh no. Oh no, it's fine. The racism is fine. Sure, I guess. Fine. It's okay. So it was just. Yeah. It's so weird. So weird to suddenly be confronted by it all in one go and on the mission, of all places.

John Dehlin [02:18:13] Yeah. When you had fought so hard to be able to stay.

Daniel Spencer [02:18:15] Exactly right. And like, I felt, I went through the whole process and I was like, well, I have no choice, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:18:22] And that's without trying to pile on the church. That's. We call that undue influence. You weren't given, you didn't have informed consent, you weren't taught everything. There was so much familial and social pressure for you to get out on the mission. And then you were under such a shame spiral that whether it's intentional or not, that's how they get you, whether it's the Scientologists doing auditing to find out anything you feel bad about and then using against you later. I don't think Mormon leaders are intentionally doing this, but the effect of the law of chastity, the worthiness interviews, the temple recommend interviews, all that worthiness stuff and, and purity culture as. As as many refer to it. The net effect of that is to have the goods on you so that you feel awful, so that you feel like you're deficient and broken and defective, so that you need Jesus. But it's not just Jesus. You need the Jesus and modern prophets and modern scripture and the one true church, or you're not going to the Good Place. And so that all of that amasses into an incredible amount of pressure and influence on a 19 year old. Right.

Daniel Spencer [02:19:40] Yep, exactly that.

John Dehlin [02:19:42] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:19:43] Well said. I got nothing to add.

John Dehlin [02:19:45] Okay.

Daniel Spencer [02:19:45] I think. Yeah. Yeah, that, like, it just sums it up in such a. In a profound way. And I, I feel like for me, I just wanted. Yeah, I just wanted to find some Sort of like learning. I think that was also the first moment that I was confronted with people don't have answers in the church. I went to the mission president, asked him the question and immediately got confrontational because he was like, like, is that a moment that, like, is that something that you're going to be concerned about? I was just like, oh, I'm not allowed to ask questions. Like, I thought people would have a decent answer for me. And the gospel talk books, essays was kind of an answer, but not really like a good answer. It was like, well, so some people have been denied they've got the priesthood before. And I was like, because of their race? No, like a tribe. It was because of they were bad, but not because they were dark in some way or less. Even like the Kane stuff is so weird. Like Cain was cursed with the dark skin. Like I was. That was something I had also just been addressed with on my mission too. I was just like, Cain is cursed with black skin. And they were like, yeah, Africans are Cain. And I was like, that's a weird in depth thing that, like, why do we need to know that? And like, yeah, also he was Bigfoot. And I was like, I don't know what that means either.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] In our Mormon stories, we're doing this series on LDS discussions and interestingly this week we're going to be talking about race and Mormon scripture. But and my Christian friends are quick to remind me, this curse of Cain being dark skin for black people. Yeah, that's not in the Bible. No, that's interpretation of the Bible by, by Protestant Christians that comes later. And then it's Joseph Smith that puts it into the book of Abraham and the, and the book of Moses. So like Joseph, Joseph made the scriptures extra racist.

Samantha Shelley [02:21:44] The Bible was too tame.

Daniel Spencer [02:21:47] You don't go far enough with this.

John Dehlin [02:21:48] Because the Bible slavery is okay, right? And there's all the genocide. Yeah, but like it. And I'm not trying to pick on Joseph Smith, but it took Joseph Smith to actually canonize the curse of Cain. Dark skin as a curse in the book of Moses, in the book of Abraham, and of course in the Book of Mormon. It's for Native Americans, but Joseph Smith takes it to 11, as they say.

Daniel Spencer [02:22:11] Yeah, well, and then. Well, you go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [02:22:13] I was just gonna say sometimes it's okay to pick on Joseph Smith. We're talking about deep, deep racism that has affected so many people is deeply fucked up. You know, you're allowed to say all that. You don't have to apologize for it.

Daniel Spencer [02:22:25] And so many people will like, at least I have been confronted by friends who are like, well, it wasn't Joseph Smith. It was Brigham Young. And it's like, okay, but what did Joseph Smith do and say and preach and write down in the scriptures to make Brigham Young think that it was okay to be able to kind of preach or cut black people entirely off from the priesthood? Like, Joseph Smith played a role, and I'm pretty sure we all have to acknowledge it in some way, shape, or form. I hate when people are like, no, Joseph is completely. He did not do anything to ever get. It's like, he put it on paper, baby. Like, I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:01] And he could have written any book he wanted. And he chose a narrative that involved people becoming black because they were wicked.

Daniel Spencer [02:23:07] Yeah. So stupid wild.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] Well, I love this as a place to pause because I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm wanting to know how your mission ends. I'm wanting, you know, I'm wanting to know, do you go to BYU after your mission? I know the answer, but I'm, you know, and then I want to know, like, yeah. Do you try and date? Do you try and get married? Do you date at byu? Like, and then what happens to your faith over time? So, like, this is a perfect place. Well, to be human and give you guys a potty break, but also to grab a quick bite of lunch, and then we're gonna come right back for part two. The concluding part to. Is it Dan, Dan Bam or Dan Bam Bam?

Daniel Spencer [02:23:47] Dan Bam.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:47] Bam.

John Dehlin [02:23:48] Dan Bam Bam. Daniel Spencer's epic Mormon story. This has been so great. Thank you, thank you.

Daniel Spencer [02:23:56] And thank you, guys. This is awesome.

John Dehlin [02:23:58] Samantha, you're great.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:59] I'm having the best day.

John Dehlin [02:24:00] Fun. Yeah. All right, well, let's go to Harmon's. We're not sponsored by Harmon's. Let's go get a salad.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:05] John's making us get salad for lunch. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:08] Sam's a vegan. Her vegetable. Vegetarian. Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:10] I like a good solid.

John Dehlin [02:24:11] Okay. All right, well, thanks for joining us so far on Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, Daniel. Thanks, Samantha. And just come right back for part two of this epic, epic episode. You'll want to hear how this ends. All right.

Samantha Shelley [02:24:25] We will get vibe checked. We'll find out. Someone needs to.

Daniel Spencer [02:24:29] And.

John Dehlin [02:24:29] And can you serve, Samantha? I just want to know, can you serve down.

Daniel Spencer [02:24:32] Help.

John Dehlin [02:24:35] I don't even know what serving means. Like, literally serving.

Daniel Spencer [02:24:38] You just got to make a look. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:41] Where does that come from?

Daniel Spencer [02:24:43] It's just like. Yeah. Come back to part two and find out how to search.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] All right. Well, thanks for joining us. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Part Two Begins: Doubts Deepen on the Mission

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1672

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's September 19, 2022 and we are here in part two of an epic, amazing Zimbabwean Mormon story. We're here with Daniel Spencer, also known as Dan Bam Bam. He's a comedian on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube. He also has a YouTube special on on dry bar. And I still don't know what that means, but if you tell me it's cool, I believe you.

Daniel Spencer [00:00:30] It's great.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Yeah, Dan has 1.7 million TikTok followers. But interestingly, we're not really talking about that. We're just talking about his amazing, epic Mormon journey. If you have not listened to part one, I encourage you. Samantha encourages you to pause right now. Go back and watch part one. Because in that we talked about his grandparents and his parents being raised Mormons in Africa, even during the priesthood and temple ban on black people in Africa and when that was lifted, how his grandparents and parents stayed Mormon as white Africans when a lot of other white Africans left the Mormon Church once they allowed black people to have full status. He talked about being raised in Zimbabwe also as a gay Mormon teenage boy, how he had sexual experiences as a gay Mormon teenage boy, which is actually quite rare from the dozens and dozens of LGBT Mormons that I've interviewed. But eventually he straightened up. I say he served, served a mission for the LDS Church in British Columbia, Vancouver, went to BYU for a little season before his mission. And we talked about how he came clean and repented midway ish through his mission and how he was on the edge about whether or not he was going to get sent home early. But eventually you make assistant to the president, is that right? Or zone leader, at least?

Daniel Spencer [00:01:57] Zone leaders, yeah. So never got to the assistant, but was there at least a year.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] So yeah, we also talked about him learning about the gospel topics essays on his mission, which is when the Mormon Church started to come clean about its history, learning about the real Curse of Cain doctrine and the, you know, Lamanite dark skinned doctrine in the Book of Mormon, learning about that on his mission and starting to have cracks of a bit of a faith crisis while he was a missionary. That's where we left off. And we are going to be now jumping into part two where we talk about how his mission ends and then his time at BYU and how he became a comedian and where his faith journey has taken him now. And we're going to be doing all that with the Samantha Shelley from Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:42] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Sam brought Daniel to me, so this wouldn't happen without you. Samuel, Sammy.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:47] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Yeah, thanks. And Samantha. Yeah, she is a co host of Zelf on the Shelf. They have a Patreon. They have a YouTube channel. They have all the channels.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:57] Yeah. Support Patreon. So important.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:00] Yeah. Get the money, though.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Yeah. And Samantha, you're from the country that colonized Zimbabwe, so in that sense, yes.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:09] So there's some crossover here.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] You're kind of recolonizing Daniel right now, actually.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:13] Oh, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] I'm sorry. That was dark.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] That was dark. I'm trying to be funny. I'm just trying to be funny, John.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:19] You got to take risks to be funny.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:21] We get it. Yeah. We always, you know.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was bad. So write down. We have to edit that out.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:30] It's not just.

Samantha Shelley [00:03:31] You're fine. We. The audience knows who you are.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Okay. Oh, a horrible person. Is that what you mean? Says inappropriate things. Okay. So anyway, welcome, Sam, and welcome back, Daniel.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] And that was a super long intro, but where should. So you're on your mission. You're having some questions. You're starting to doubt things. Like you're recognizing how racist the church leaders have been, how racist the Book of Mormon kind of is.

Daniel Spencer [00:03:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] But you've straightened up. You're not messing around.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:02] No. Well, your mission and that's the whole thing is like, I. I feel like on my mission, I just kind of. I wanted to be a good missionary. Right. Because of all the, like, work I put in to repent. I really wanted to make sure that I was. I was good. Right. I put this in an interview, and maybe I can just say this over here. I'm not sure you guys can edit it out after the fact, but I never masturbated once on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Wow.

Daniel Spencer [00:04:27] Like, period. And I've heard a lot of people say that they struggle with that. It was, like, not a struggle for me. I wasn't. Like. Which is. Which is weird because I feel like before my mission and even after that, I definitely struggled with that sort of stuff. Right. Where I was like, yeah, I did want to look at porn. And, yeah, I did want to masturbate. But on the mission, I felt so motivated by the experiences I had in the temple beforehand, as well as the repentance process that I was like, I don't want to disrespect that moment for me. Right. Like, it would be so stupid to. Maybe that's the wrong Way to think about it, but I was like, after the mission, it's fine, but like, on the mission, I can't do that here. I can't make the mistakes that I regularly would because I've been given this beautiful moment to kind of teach the gospel, be the Lord's missionary, and actually like, preach the gospel the way it's supposed to be preached, as well as the fact that I was scared. Again, we go back to a mission president's wife's promise of like, you're not going to be a good missionary if you sin. So I was like, I'm not going back to that. I feel depressed if I do that. And that's just not who I want to be. Speaking of depression, though, what ended up happening was kind of like at the midway point, a little over the midway point, I got put with a companion. It was very weird. It was an interesting one. This is a weird story to tell, but I want to tell it because it was just like, what is going on? I can't remember what the disease was, but I had a missionary in my mission who was very prominent and had served in a very remote part of Canada. And he became my companion after a very difficult, not a difficult companionship, but a difficult companionship in that I was in a companionship with a guy who was about to finish. And in my opinion, he was like, lax. How I saw it was like, lax. But again, it was because I was trying to be so overly obedient that it became like, I feel like I was oppressive, almost emotionally abusive, probably in the way of like, you have to be perfect. You have to be absolutely perfect. I have to be perfect. And that translated into kind of like a bad relationship between us too. And before he left, we kind of hugged it out and he was just like. He was like, I know there's like a human being in there. I was like, yeah, I might have. I might have messed this one up. And I felt bad. I apologized to him after. I was just like, I'm so sorry that I, like, wasn't more human in that transfer. It just felt terrible. And basically what ended up happening was that I, like, got this new companion and I was like, I'm going to be better. I'm going to try and be like, a little more. A little more. A little more. Like, humane's the wrong word, but natural, right? Like, I'm not going to be as like, hard assed. Such an asshole, basically. Anyway, he comes down to my area, we start doing a whole bunch of stuff. He goes from like remote in the middle of nowhere Canada to a giant city. We were in Surrey and people are throwing up. It's like, honestly, there was a big, like, drug use population there. We were in like, if it can be considered that like the ghettos of Canada essentially where like, drug use was just prominent. It was just like drugged up white people basically. Like, Canada was so beautiful. It was just like, this doesn't feel like a bad area. It just felt like a lot of people were doing drugs and that was about it.

Miraculous Claims and Mission Leadership

John Dehlin [00:08:08] Isn't letter kidney.

Daniel Spencer [00:08:10] Is that A. Oh, yeah. Letter kidney is also. Yeah, that's from Canada too. I love Letterkenny. And that's the thing is you meet people in rural Canada like that. It's so fun. But yeah, he. I could tell he was struggling, but at one point he started complaining about neck pain and he was like, neck pain in my neck. Neck. And I was like, I'm so sorry, that sounds rough. Maybe we should call the nurse. And he calls the nurse, the mission nurse. And he's like, I can't move my neck as well as I want to. So she's like, hand the phone to Elder Spencer. So I'm holding the phone. And I was like, yes. And she. She was like, are his eyes pink? And I was like. And I literally said, as pink as, like, maybe someone's eyes can be pink. I was like, yeah, they're pinkish. And she was like, he has. I can't remember what the disease is. I wish I remembered. It wasn't Ms. It's. It starts with an M and something. Yeah, something. Something with the spine and nerves. And she's like, he's going to die. You have to get him to hospital, like right now.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Meningitis.

Daniel Spencer [00:09:19] Meningitis. That's it. He has meningitis. You need to get him to a hospital immediately. And I was like, I can't drive. I don't have the driver's license, which is. I never went through my mission getting a Canadian license. It was too much with my Zimbabwean driver's license. They didn't let me have it. So I was like, okay. Anyway, we get another elder, a kind of older in the mission to take him to the Beat, the prominent hospital in Vancouver, which is about an hour away. And I'm with another missionary. Eventually we have to transfer back. We go to the hospital. He said, he's in there and he's like, can we get a blessing? And maybe this is just too much exposure. So I'm not going to mention names, but it was just really weird. Another elder comes in, another set of companions. These zone leaders from the Vancouver area come in to help me give the blessing, and they're, like, going to be in a companionship with me while I'm. This guy's in the operating rooms or whatever. We start giving the blessing. The doctors walk in, and we've asked him. He's like, yeah, they just. They said it's so bad, they don't know what's going to happen. The doctors come in and they're like, oh, you have. We don't know. There's nothing in the test that show anything. Definitely not meningitis. Maybe like, flu. Muscle flu. Like flu of the muscles. It's like, oh, interesting. And they're like, yeah, and here's your bill. And it was like, $13,000. And he was like, oh, who's going to pay this? And they were like, I don't know. We'll see, but someone has to pay it. And I think the church eventually paid that or whatever. But after that, he was like, yeah, when you guys gave me the blessing, which we didn't finish, he was like, when you guys gave me the blessing, I felt the meningitis leave my body.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:12] Beautiful.

Daniel Spencer [00:11:13] And I'm a zone leader, so I'm like, this doesn't feel right. What? No. Okay, sure. But he only says this on the phone to the mission president. Before that, he didn't say anything. He says it to the mission president while he's on the phone because he's getting an update. It's like, yeah, they gave me a blessing, and I felt it leave my body. And so the doctor said that they didn't see anything on the test. And he starts telling people this, and out of nowhere, it starts going across the mission that this elder was healed miraculously by the blessing I gave him. And I was like, I did not do that. I was like, the doctor came into the office and said, you did not have meningitis. He said you had flu, and you might have just been, like, overreacting. And he was like, no, no, no. It was meningitis. And suddenly the mission president starts preaching that he was healed. And the mission nurse did the right thing. And she gets brought up at, like, zone conferences and mission conferences, and it's like, he healed him. He did this sort of stuff. And I just remember, like, sitting across from the elders that had been in the tri companionship with me and being like, is this real? Is. Did this happen? I don't think this hap. Like, this has not happened the way it's supposed to. And they're like, well, we don't want to, like, come off faith. Like, faithless, right? Like, this is a faith building exercise. This is something that, like. But it was in emails the mission put in, like, the mission email. It was crazy. And I think that was the first time I was like, there's a lot of, like, pretend in some circumstances. Like, I was like, but. And that was weird because growing up in Africa, we had fake prophets come about all the time that were like, not non lds. Non lds. Yeah. Just random guys that were like, and I'm a prophet and I've heal people. And we'd laugh about it all the time and be like, that is outrageous. And then I was like, how much do we do of that? And so that was like the first moment where I was like, oh, no. Someone just, like, edited the story. And if I say what I know about the situation, I'm gonna look like I don't have faith. Right? Like, I was the guy who was blessing him, and I don't believe in that. Anyway, for the following. They told him to stay off his feet for four weeks because he ended up getting a spinal tap. And they were like, yeah, it could leak or whatever. And he's like, and so I have to stay off my feet. Right? Right. Immediately after, he gets transferred from a rural Canada where he's not doing as much like, contacting, and suddenly he gets transferred to an area with tons of foot traffic. People just, like, constantly, like, having to be talked to. And I understood that because I went from rural Canada to Victoria. That was, like, where I went through my repentance process. The way I got broken was in Victoria, where there was just tons and tons of foot traffic. And I had to learn how to adapt to city missionary work as opposed to, like, rural missionary work, which is very, like, door to door here and there, you talk to someone, right? It was so interesting. So anyway, he's like, now we have to stay off of. We can't go do work for four weeks. So for four weeks, I'm sitting absolutely depressed. I just get further and further into depression and further, further into. Daniel, you are gay and you're a bad missionary. And this is you getting punished because you were a bad companion to your last companion. And maybe, like, this is bad. So it's the first time I go to therapy. LDS Family Services therapist. And, yeah, I just basically go through this, like, kind of crisis of, like, identity. Right. Like, I think I'm a gay guy. I don't know if this is Gonna happen. I start talking to this alias family services therapist, and he's just like, you'll be fine after your mission. It'll be okay. Like, you. You'll marry a woman. Same stuff that we talked about in part one, right?

Samantha Shelley [00:15:08] Therapist was saying that too.

Daniel Spencer [00:15:10] Yes. Yeah. Like, do you still feel like you want a temple marriage? And so, of course, I'm still, like, kind of lying, right. I didn't want to believe I was lying at the time, but I look back, and I was like, you were still lying. You were still, like, not being honest with yourself, who you were. And so it started just, like, weighing on me. I also. In that same transfer, because once he healed, we had a zone conference, and there was a sister who was. I'm not joking. Dying. Like, she had this ovarian disease where she. Something had gone wrong with her ovaries, and she was bleeding out, and she had lost, like, £40 in, like. I can't remember. It must have been four days, five days. She was just vomiting everything and couldn't hold down anything. She walked in like a skeleton. Like, just was absolutely pale, sick. She had gone to the hospital, received treatment, but she was still so sick. And they were like, they're still deciding if they're sending her home. I don't know what was happening. I think they were like, she's going home. We just have to wait till all this stuff is organized at that point. She comes up to me after the zone conference and was like, elders, you're my zone leaders. Would you mind giving me a blessing? I am feeling very, very sick. I was like, okay, cool. But in our mission, we were very, very segregated. We were actually testing a new. I don't know if it was like the church decided or my mission president decided it, but we were testing out elders and sister districts, so elders and sisters didn't mix at all, period.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Because too many mission.

Daniel Spencer [00:16:46] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Female sister missionaries were hooking up.

Daniel Spencer [00:16:48] I think so. Yeah. Previously.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] And so segregate them.

Daniel Spencer [00:16:51] Segregate them entirely. And so there was sister zones, elder zones. We did not talk. You weren't allowed to talk to sisters more than, hey, here's an investigator. And even that turned into texting. Anyway, I blessed the sister because there's no members around, but I had. I made sure to get one of the senior missionaries in there. But you weren't allowed to do that. I was just like, this girl's dying. Like, I don't have time. I don't have time. She's. She. She needs this blessing. I'm Going to give her this blessing. And the only reason I blessed her was because I asked the elder, the guy in the senior couple, the missionary couple that was sitting in. I was like, do you want to bless her? And he was like, no, you do it, elder. And again, not trying to. I'm not going to be like, why don't you want to do it? Right? I was like, I don't know if it's a repentance thing. I don't know if it's like a worthiness thing, but I guess I'm just going to do this because it's the right thing to do because she's literally dying from this ovarian, whatever it is. So I bless her. I get done immediately call the assistants and say, hey, there was a unique situation where I blessed the sister. I'm so sorry. Oh, give me a call back.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] I'm sorry.

Daniel Spencer [00:17:56] They call me back. We're doing a training for the district's district leaders on our zone. They call me back. And every other room is being used by other zones because it was like a shared zone conference. And so I was like, I can only take this phone call here, and it's a serious enough situation that I will probably have to take this call in front of the district leaders. I was like, we'll just pause this. I just need to explain some stuff to them. And they knew what the situation was. All the district leaders knew the sister was bad off. So not well off. So I just remember picking up the phone and the assistants screaming, how dare you. You have disappointed Jesus for. For blessing the sister. And so I'm like, that would.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] That should be a good thing.

Daniel Spencer [00:18:42] I. I thought so. And so I remember just being like, wow, like, this is crazy. I don't know what's happening. I hang up the phone and they were like, we're going to talk to you later. But, yeah, what you did was bad. You need to repent. That's what they said. And I hung up the phone because

John Dehlin [00:19:02] of the segregation thing.

Daniel Spencer [00:19:04] Yeah, it was all like, obedience. Like, how dare you bless a sister that's dying?

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And if anyone was safe to be blessing the sister, I know, but I

Daniel Spencer [00:19:13] made sure I did everything in my power to, like, I was like, there's no members around that can actually bless her. I did everything in my power to make sure there was stuff in place to make sure that, like, there wasn't a bad situation. It wasn't just I wanted to bless the sister. So I did it. I was like, I got the senior couple. I did Everything I could. I didn't interact with her more than I needed to. I just literally blessed her and went on my way.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] I didn't even have feelings for her.

Daniel Spencer [00:19:37] I'm gay. I wish I could have just told them. What motivation. Yeah, what motivation do I have? It's so weird. Anyway, I hang off the phone and I remember for the first time, I think her name was Sister Skinner. Maybe it was something else. I can't remember. So chill. One of the most amazing sister missionaries ever. And she was just honestly, like, great. But I hung up the phone and all the missionaries, I could get emotional about this, but all the district leaders were like, we know what you did in there. What they're doing to you right now is not right. But they wouldn't say that. They couldn't say that out loud to. They couldn't say that out loud to the assistants because again, they'll look faithless. Right. So I think I'm doing the right thing. I don't. In their eyes, because as far as they're concerned, the rules are the rules, period. They eventually called me after the fact and apologized for shouting, but they said that the sentiment was still, yeah, we meant what we said, essentially. And I was like, okay, whatever. I get demoted from zone leadership and I get made a trainer and I just remember relief. I was like, I don't have to do anything crazy. I'm in the most quiet area. One of the elders who was in that tri companionship joins me in Vancouver.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] The.

Daniel Spencer [00:21:03] The two zone leaders in Vancouver, one of him, one of them joins me as my companion training. And so we just have the best time.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Well, let's just not skip over too quickly the fact that you were punished for exercising your priesthood. Like when Joseph smith does the 13 articles of faith, the gift of healing is like literally one of the selling points. It's one of the value propositions of Mormonism. You were exercising your priesthood, which we're supposed to have, to the exclusion of all other non Mormons in the world. And yet you're getting in trouble for exercising it.

Daniel Spencer [00:21:36] Yeah. And I can't speak to that. I can't say, like, oh, yeah, I was for sure demoted. But it felt like that, Right? It felt like they were like, oh, no, you're going to be made a trainer. But that was always code for like, this zone zone leader was terrible. Like, oh, he didn't do his job right.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [00:21:52] And honestly, it was just because, like, yeah, my zone wasn't seeing success because I had a guy who had meningitis, apparently And I was stuck in a house for four weeks. And I'm sorry that I wasn't, like, the best zone leader. And I'm sorry I blessed the sister, but that's what it is. I'm sorry my zone isn't, like, popping off with numbers, but whatever, right? And so that was the weird part was, like, I went through the sudden, like, again. It was relief of, like, I moved on, but I had depression about it. I was like, I'm not a good missionary. I'm bad. And so I start having therapy sessions again over the phone, but I'm actually, like, processing stuff. And it's funny because the other zone leader went through the exact same thing who got demoted with me. We both got put in the same area, and we're both just, like, living our best lives doing therapy. We're in the forest every p day. Like, ah, this is so fun, right? I remember we did. I had that for one transfer. And then my mission president calls me on transfer day. I. Oh, it's. It's like, done. Transfer day is finished. And I'm like, yeah, we can, like, we're still in the forest. We're still gonna do this for another transfer. I get a phone call at midnight. I must, like, about to go to. I'm, like, ready to sleep. And the phone vibrates. And I was like. And I knew. I was like, here we go. Some one of us is getting drawn to it. We'll see. I thought it was gonna be like, oh, and we're going to send your companion off. Because I was like, I messed up enough. Messed up enough in the mission that it wasn't going to be me. And then my mission brother called me, and he's like, elder Spencer, we're going to transfer you up to terrace, which is, like, lit. I always used to make the joke that, like, God would have a sense of humor and send me to the African. To the wintry. The most wintry part of Canada. And that was the furthest up you could go was terrace. And he was like, you're getting transferred to terrace. And I just remember crying, like, bawling my eyes out. And he was like, oh, are you just so happy? Did you get to go? And I was like, I can't tell him. I can't tell him that I'm actually, like, really sad. Like, I don't want to. I don't want to go back to zone leadership. I don't want to have that responsibility if it means people are going to be, like, disappointed with me because I mess up. You know, so he did call you to a new zone Leadership.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] Yeah, just insight. The equivalent of Siberia, basically.

Daniel Spencer [00:24:15] Yeah, exactly. And. And in that zone, that's when I got the news that my friend, My best friend died. And I remember that really, like, affecting me. Sorry. I. I don't know why. I apologize for getting emotional. My therapist says, like, I need to let my emotions out. But it was. It was hard. It was an insane moment of just like. Yeah, it was just crazy. And I just. I just remember kind of being so scared of everything and messing up. But the nice part about where I was was it was so remote that, like, there wasn't really a lot that could go wrong. And you couldn't really, like, check up on elders because they were, like, four hours away, right? So it was like you could just have phone calls and hope that everyone was behaving well, and all you could do was have numbers, and that was it. So I was like, this is kind of a low enough stress area where I can still kind of, like, be good, right? And I still have my therapy appointments over the phone. And I was like, this is. This is fine. And I ended up finishing my mission off really well in that way. But I remember those experiences, that particular moment, that whole transfer in Surrey just being a moment of like, this is hell. Like, I don't know what I just experienced, but it's not. It didn't feel good. And how I read it in the moment was, I've disappointed people. But I looked back and I remember telling people and they were like, that was bad. No, how they treated you was bad. Like, that's wrong. You should see that as wrong. And I was like, no, no. Like, that's my mission present. And my assistants, they were, like, inspired of God. And I was like, no, they handled the situation poorly. And so that was my first experience with, like, being mishandled by a leader. And that would be the first of many as I started coming out to more church leaders, right? I finished off my mission really well. I feel like I had, like, a baptism before I, like, left. And, like, I was like, so it was weird. In Canada, if I remember correctly, my number was 27 baptisms, which didn't happen in Canada. Like, people were like, oh, pop off amazing, right? Because I was like. And I look back, some of them were just like, we should just, like, baptize so we can baptize. And that was kind of how our mission was, right? We were the type of mission that was like, if you pray with someone on the street, teach them A principle. Pray with them. That's a lesson. And so my first mission, that was how my first mission present was. Second mission present was more like, no, we need to, like, sit down and have meaningful lessons with people. And I love both of my mission presidents, and I need to clarify that because I think a lot of people think I have animosity towards the assistants or the mission presidents. I get that it was a bad situation, but I also feel like they handled me so well in their capacity. Right. For what their testimonies are, whatever it is. I still think that my first mission president handled my coming out so well and really went and batted for me and me staying. Obviously, we've analyzed the, like, cultural stuff, but I think he genuinely was like, no, keep this kid here because he needs this, like, in some way, shape or form. At least I felt that way. Second mission president was great because he just was, like, a lot more caring. There was still a lot of, like, weird stuff where he was giving a lot of people responsibility. And that was kind of in the moment of the assistant shouting at me. He kind of, like, hoped that the other missionaries would do well. He helped me with my friend dying. He would call me and just check up on me and be like, is everything okay? Are you okay?

A Friend's Death and Returning Home

Samantha Shelley [00:27:53] I have a question about that. Yeah, sorry. Not to backtrack too much, but how did you get the news that your best friend had died?

Daniel Spencer [00:28:00] My mission president just called me and was like. He was like, I don't know what the whole situation is, but your friend Sam. His name was Sam. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, he's passed. Sorry, he's passed away. We're going to get you in contact with your sister. She's going to explain more of it. But, yeah. And then I just ended up. That was the first time I've ever scream, cried, right? Like, wailed. And maybe it was, like, good, because I was just in a place. Yeah. It was just a. I don't know how to explain it. It was. It was such a shock because, one, he had been baptized and we had been talking about, like, when I got back to byu, how we would hang out, we'd go and, like, do stuff, and suddenly it just was all done. Like, I was like, I am never going to be able to see my friend again. And it felt. It felt unfair at the time, but I didn't want to say that. I wasn't like, oh, this feels unfair. I was just like, well, God's plan. God's plan. God's plan. But I really, I really just felt cheated by the experience, right. That like, my friend got baptized and I wasn't allowed to be there. And then he got to be a member for as long as he was and I never got to see him ever again. You know, my grandfather, it was funny, my grandfather died maybe three months after that and I didn't cry as hard. I loved my grandfather, but I feel like I knew that was coming, you know, he was starting to lose it. With my friend, it just caught me completely off guard where it was just like, wow, like, where did this come from? You know? So, yeah, that was just a really weird moment for me where I was just like, again. I feel like it also fed into my testimony of being like, well, I'm gonna see him again, I'm gonna see him again. I hope I can be as good enough to see my friend again type vibes. And then, yeah, you just kind of go through the rest of the mission. And I think that's why I worked so hard to the end was I hope I work good enough to be able to make it back to heaven. I hope I work well enough to be able to like, again, respect the repentance process I had. And so there was just tons of moments where I was just trying so hard to be the best, best missionary I possibly could because I didn't want to fail or disappoint people. But I didn't realize that that was feeding my depression and how like how bad I was going to be after the mission because I was saying I have to be absolutely perfect, pristine to be anything different than again, just perfect, you know?

Samantha Shelley [00:30:45] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [00:30:47] And so, yeah, when I got back,

John Dehlin [00:30:49] how would you say your testimony was when you were done then? Pretty strong still.

Daniel Spencer [00:30:54] Yeah, I was. Oh yeah, definitely. But I don't think I was looking at the cracks anymore. Like, I wasn't acknowledging the racist stuff or like the experience I had with it. I was just completely blinded by I have to be perfect and Mormon or else I'm going to be a servant of Satan that'll burn in hell type stuff.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] Who doesn't see Sam?

Daniel Spencer [00:31:13] Who doesn't see Sam again? Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:31:15] So it became very fear based. Whereas it doesn't sound like before your mission you necessarily had as much of a fear based view of.

Daniel Spencer [00:31:22] No, not at all. It was all very like, I feel like before, before the mission it was very, very faithful, very like people are kind and I should be a good person and I should do this post mission. It was like it was just. Or else it was like you can't be gay or else. And that was the thing. My exit interview, I remember with my mission president, him being like, if you bear your testimony. I think he made a promise to me where he was like, if you bear your testimony regularly, you won't give in to your natural man. Or something like that. Some. I can't remember the lingo, but something to. Something along those lines. Right. Where it was like, you won't have to worry about that stuff if you just bear your testimony regularly.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] Oh, my gosh.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:07] And so I was like, okay, I will just go back home and I will do everything perfect, and we will see how it goes. And I remember getting back and immediately, one. I think the mission also killed my emotional connection to people in some way, shape, or form. I didn't want to talk to my family because I was so scared of my feelings. I felt like, very. I feel like my mission in a lot of ways taught me to just be, like, emotionless because I had to be. I had to be so perfect that I didn't think, like, think or feel anything different than other. What? Than anything that the church taught me. Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] It's not healthy to lie all the time. Your brain has chemicals that it shoots into your body that say, stop being a liar. Stop being fake. Stop being phony.

Daniel Spencer [00:32:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] So when you're just. When those chemicals, the cortisol, the adrenaline, when that's just pumping through your body all the time.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] Because you're lying all the time to everyone about everything.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:06] Y.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] You start to feel awful. So if you don't learn to shut off your feelings, you're just going to feel awful. So you just numb yourself.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] However you can. Right.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:14] And that's how I felt. I felt numb. I was like, I. I have. I have to be numb. Like, I was like, if I'm going to do this thing, I have to be so, so numb. I remember I got home, and immediately I was like, I have to go to America, like, right now. And my parents were like, you don't want to stay in Zimbabwe for, like, a couple months and just chill with us? I was like, no, I need to get to America, like, right now.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Wow.

Daniel Spencer [00:33:39] Well, also, this is a side note. I had accumulated debt from my previous full semester before my mission. And I had deferred the payment. I had put it through, and I got a confirmation that I had deferred the payment. And I came back and BYU had not deferred it. And so it went to National Collections and accumulated more debt. And they were like, we can't really do anything about this. Sorry. You're just going to have to pay off the extra, however much money it accumulated. So I think it came something like five, six grand somewhere on there. So I went up from like three grand to six over the two years. And so I was like, well, I also have to just go pay off stuff. So I just used that as an excuse, right? I was like, I can't. I just have to go home. I have to go to America because that's where we make all of our money, and I need to pay that off immediately. So I go, I come here, I start working at a call center. And again, my family, I'm working catering and at a call center. And that was the first time my. My sister, who, when I was 14, she caught me looking at shirtless men. She caught me looking at shirtless men on Google. And she followed that up because she actually. And she's apologized for this regularly, but she'd, like, blackmail me with it. She'd be like, you better go get me a drink, or else I'm gonna tell mom and dad what I saw you looking at on the computer. And she's apologized frequently. And she actually did that the night that I did this. But she was like, I'm so sorry that happened. Are you gay? And I was like, yes, Yes, I am gay. I. I am gay. And yeah, that's. That's that. And that was like a month in after I came back from a mission, two months in. And we built a strong connection over that. I feel like. And I love my sister. Her name's Hannah. She has been one of my biggest, like, supporters in that I feel like all of my siblings have. And my parents. Coming out to my parents was so, so scary, just because, I mean, you couldn't tell. In part one, I was scared to let my mission president even tell my dad because, again, I had grown up with my mom. My mom being very like, you need to be the perfect man. You need to be a rugby player. You need to do this stuff. I used to do all of the clubs I talked about. I do them in secret because I felt like I had to also do the stuff that my mom was telling me to do, which was like, rugby and cricket and hockey, because she was just trying to meet society she was at again, they were already pariahs, seen as, like, satanic pariahs because they were Mormons. They couldn't drink like everyone else, and they couldn't have coffee like everyone else. So therefore, they weren't cool enough or they Weren't like, what everyone wanted them to be. Right. And so I think my mom just so desperately wanted me to be normal, to protect me as well. Right. Like, I don't think it was. I think it was partially for her, but a lot for me. So I wasn't, like, going to get beaten up or whatever it was. Right. So I eventually came out to them, and I remember them just hugging me, and we just cried. And it was a very beautiful moment of just, we love you. We care about you. My mom did say when I did come out, she was like. And I know tons of guys, tons of gay guys who are married to women, happily, right? We go back to it. Right? They're happily married. I will say that that's changed now. Right. Obviously, she's very, like, they're very supportive, and it's been interesting to watch that progression, and maybe we'll get to that later on in the story. But, yeah, just an interesting moment of, like, there was no, like, second thought. Right. I also attribute this to my aunt. She's a lesbian. She took the brunt, I think, when she came out. She came out around, like, 2009. I think she took the brunt of, like, my parents first, like, ugh, how are we supposed to feel? And she addressed that in a way that was like, I just remember when I was 16 and visited America, she came over while we were in Utah dropping my sisters off. She came over to my other aunt's house, and she was telling me. She was just like, okay, everyone upstairs, I need to talk to your dad kind of vibes, or we were just told to go upstairs. People were like, go upstairs. Dad needs to have a serious talk with Aunt Linda about something. And we had knew she had come out as lesbian, but, you know, we just didn't talk about it. And I think her and my dad just had a, as far as I know, a serious conversation. But that was the first moment I think my dad had been confronted with LGBTQ plus narratives in his life. I think my mom was also confronted with that. My mom had, like, grown up being in, like, show choirs and stuff. She's a singer, so she knew what tons of gay guys. But I don't think she, like, had had a personal connection to anyone lgbtq. Right. And so, yeah, I think she took the brunt. And my coming out was just kind of like, that. I was nervous. I was like, what? How are they gonna react? And it was loving and it was kind, and it was just beautiful. And I think it's unique because I feel Like, I know a lot of gay guys in the church that don't have that situation. And every time I tell them that story, it's like, wow, like, I wish my parents would react that way. And I was like, I think it's just because I grew up in a. In a kind of a loose household, right? R rated movies where gay narratives. We watch Project 1 or like Runway every Friday. Right. My dad and mom weren't weird about gay stuff. They weren't like, oh, a gay guy's on the tv, we have to shut it off. My parents were like, there are gay people in the world and you need to accept that type vibes. Right. I think they hoped that none of us were just for the sake of protection, but I think that. Or just like, yeah, but at the end of the day, they weren't weird about it. Right. And then with my aunt, there was a little bit of like, retraction where they were like, we don't talk to Aunt Linda for a bit. But I think that was just kind of them coming to terms with it. It wasn't like, we're not going to talk to her because she's gay. It was like, we just don't know how to feel. But the problem with that was that I was still numb. I was still like, I don't want to talk to people about this. I don't want to delve into it. They were like, well, how do you feel? And I was like, I feel like maybe I could be bisexual. Like, yeah, I think I could get married. Like when my mom said that, oh, yeah, I could do maybe. Yeah, I could see that. And it just wasn't. Just wasn't the case. I tried. I tried so hard to date girls here and there at byu. At byu? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Eventually I went back to byu.

Coming Out to Family and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:40:12] Okay, so this is why you were still home.

Daniel Spencer [00:40:14] Oh, no, no. This was all. Okay. This is all. As I'm in BYU, my. My sister coming out to my sisters was 2015. My two sisters.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] That was the same year as the LGBT exclusion. Well, it's the same year that in the United States, same sex marriage was legalized.

Daniel Spencer [00:40:29] I came back and it got legalized that weekend. Yeah. Okay, well, I came back to America. That. And that weekend we did that. I remember going up to my aunt with my brother in law and my brother in law being like, they, so how's it going? Are you excited? And my lesbian aunt was like, oh, oh, getting married. And they were like, oh, the ring. Like, it was so fun. Right? Like, very clearly Like, a moment. And then I came out to my parents. Christmas of 2017.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Okay, wait, you would have been out. Ish. When the church issued its exclusion policy in November, December 2015?

Daniel Spencer [00:41:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] You remember that?

Daniel Spencer [00:41:10] I do. I remember being at the call center and people being like, did you see what happened? It was funny. Well, it's not funny. Oh, this is another one. And this is also when I was kind of confronted with stuff. So I'm working at this call center, and there's a new hire who is very obviously gay. He's got bleached hair. He's like, ah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he's. He is swearing up and down that he's straight. And I was like, oh, okay, I also have bleached hair. So I'm like, I think we both sensed it in each other, right? We were like, we're straight.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] I just want to know if all gay people go, ah.

Samantha Shelley [00:41:50] Is that.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Is that a thing?

Daniel Spencer [00:41:52] I think that's just a me thing. Put my tongue out. Oh, my gosh. That's so embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] But anyway, I'm trying to be funny.

Daniel Spencer [00:42:00] No, it's a good observation, I think.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] I've never heard Gerardo do that.

Daniel Spencer [00:42:07] It's just a Daniel thing at this point. So we're working at this call center, and the guy I'm training is. Yeah. Is gay, as far as I can tell. Very fashionable. Very. Like, we get pulled in at one point into an office. They pull in our whole team, and they're like, by the way, so and so has committed suicide. And you guys just have to. You can take. You can take the day off, essentially.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Was this. That guy.

Daniel Spencer [00:42:44] It was the guy, the trainee. And they were like, the funeral will be. And we had become good enough friends at work where it was just like, hey, hey. Talked about life, talked about everything. I can't remember. I don't know if I remember the full story because no one will really tell me, but I remember walking into the funeral and seeing, like, a lot of gay guys just sitting in the chapel, and they were angry. Like, it felt. It felt angry. Like just absolute anger. And if I remember correctly, and I trigger warning. I hope this doesn't do anything for anyone, but apparently him and another gay guy had hung him. Hung themselves together because they were scared. Of what? Of being gay, essentially. Like, they were scared to live that part of their lifestyle. And I remember. Well, first of all, when they told me I was just bawling my eyes out in work one again, I didn't have, like, a crazy, deep connection to him. But it was the first time I was confronted. Sorry. It was the first time I was confronted with my own, like, suicidality. Suicidal ness. Because I knew that that was in the back of my mind that had come up on my mission during, like, the depression and therapy. I wanted to so bad because I was just like, if I. If I can kill myself now, then I'll go to the celestial kingdom because I'm absolutely perfect. I'm the perfect missionary and I can be with Sam and all this stuff, right? And now I was imperfect, though, so I was scared. I was like, ugh, this is the worst. And it was the first time I had seen someone do it because of that reason, right? It wasn't. It wasn't because anything else other than I have to be perfect and I don't want to die being imperfect and therefore I will kill myself. And so, like, that was just a moment where I didn't know how to handle the situation. And for the first time, I wanted to do the same thing. And that would be the first of many. I'd break down and cry to my sister, Hannah, Hannah and Britney. And all my siblings, honestly, at this point have had some sort of instance where they've had to deal with Daniel in that capacity. Because for years and years, like you said, it's just me lying. It's just me constantly going on dates and being disappointed that I can't be what a girl wants me to be, can't be what a church wants me to be, can't be anything other than who I am because I can't date a girl because it feels so uncomfortable and I hate it. I hated it. Girls would try to kiss and I would hate it. And then I'd feel bad because I couldn't act the appropriate way. And I would just go into depression and be utterly confused as to what I was supposed to do. Right? I'd pray to God and say, like, I'm trying, like, I'm doing everything. I don't know why you can't, like, bless me with. Sorry, that was a horrible. Bless me with an erection for a girl, or bless me with, like, some sort of attraction to women, or bless me with anything because I'm desperate and so eventually I can ask a question. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. So, yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] No, that. No, that. That's my favorite type of Mormon story when the person just goes. And people love that. So don't apologize again for having emotions or for sharing your stories. It's great. I always have to pause and ask this question because it's So I don't want to say infuriating, but it is infuriating to me, if I'm being honest. So between 2008 and. And a year or two ago, maybe three, there was this building narrative where you just see all these LGBT Mormon suicides piling up. You'd see the obituaries in the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News eventually culminating in Mama Dragons making a big issue of this and the Believer documentary and Tyler Glenn and Dan Reynolds and Imagine Dragons. And. And it was just like the. The. The suicide rate in Utah is like, triple.

Daniel Spencer [00:47:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] The national average.

Daniel Spencer [00:47:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] And it's a huge percentage of that are just gay Mormon men who don't want to live anymore. In the past few years, we've seen the Mormon Church come up with research. And I'm. For those who aren't watching, I'm. I'm doing air quotes where it's like, oh, no, it's the altitude. It's not. It's not. It's Rocky Mountain region. Oh, it's not. No. In fact, we. We've studied and found out that gay Utahns raised Mormon do better than gay Utahns, not raised Mormon. So the. Ergo, the Mormon Church is actually good for gay people. You know, just research that basically does two things. It tries to blame suicide on anything but the LGBT Mormon experience, and it certainly tries to downplay the church's fault as. As being a major contributing factor to the LGBT Mormon death by suicide crisis. Is there anything you want to say about all those efforts to try and use statistics to say, oh, it's not the. It's not the Mormon and gay thing that's causing that. It's. It's the altitude.

Daniel Spencer [00:48:17] Yeah. I. Well, one. If you actually, it just frustrates. Sorry. It frustrates me to no end because that is a question that I got all the time. People are like, oh, well, how do you feel about the suicide rate? And it's like, the only way I feel is, like, angry. That's the only way you should feel about that. The other thing is, if they were confident enough, they would actually just ask. Ask the question. The problem initially is that they've also created a culture where even if they were to ask the question to parents and teens in the Mormon faith, they wouldn't answer honestly. I'm a testament to that. Like, my life was a lie until, like, two years ago. Like, I don't. I don't know how else to explain it other than just saying, like, you don't know what it's like to live completely dishonestly because you have to hide away so much of yourself because you're so scared of what your parents or what your church leaders will think. The fact that I just saw the other day on a video of your guys's that they put the asterisks next to people's names because they don't want you to get a calling because you're gay.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] With children.

Daniel Spencer [00:49:25] With children. Oh, okay. And see, and that's just. It's so absolutely insane that the church has these programs to monitor and be able to, I don't know, in some way limit people from being themselves entirely or just owning themselves. And now they want to kind of, in any way, shape or form, distance themselves from those narratives when there are so many people that have come forward and said, no, I've lived that way. I know what it feels like to be suicidal. I know why. How the logic, like, I don't know, the way I've dealt with it. Right. Is just coming forward and saying, I am sick. And I was sick and tired at a certain point of saying, I want to die because I want to be perfect. Right. Like, that is. And you can't change. Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] Like, hard to try.

Daniel Spencer [00:50:13] Yeah. Well. And that was the thing, the church narrative. I think it came with the change of the church narrative from gays are an abomination. I don't want to say, like, the statistics change, but just, like, I think it might have exacerbated it a little bit where it was like, well, you know, being gay isn't a sin. It's if you do it. Because then suddenly it became, oh, if I do anything gay, I am an abomination. I am perverted. I am bad in any way, shape, or form. And then you had to fight yourself on that and constantly go back and forth and say, I have to be anything but that. And so, yeah, it's just. It. It frustrates me to know and to know that there are people out there, especially within the church. And it's something that I still struggle with even within my own family, because I feel like there are so many beautiful and wonderful Mormons who do care about their LGBTQ siblings, children, just relatives or friends that want to be able to, like, support them in those situations. But the problem is that they can't. The church refuses to go back on doctrine because they're afraid that they're going to look wrong the same way that they looked wrong with black people in the priesthood or polygamy. Or polygamy because they can't explain it away. They can't say, hey, these guys that we believe talk to God. We're wrong about gay people. And saying like, hey, maybe gay people deserve to be treated equally is so weird because that's all we wanted. That's all I want is to be able to say, I just want equality. I don't want anything else. It's the fact that you have literally killed us. You've killed. Like, killed. Sorry. Like, you have pushed us to the point where we have to kill ourselves to send a message. And you're not even hearing the message. Right. Like, how many more people have to do that before you're like, hey, maybe this is something that we need to acknowledge as a problem instead of just like, well, maybe it's the altitude. Fuck the altitude. Ask the question directly and don't be cowards, because that's the problem. The church is a coward, cowardice organization that wants to avoid the questions that they need to be asking. Right. I don't like it. I hate it. I hate people that try to avoid the question. Ask people the direct question. Ask your friends and family members that are gay how they feel about it, and they will tell you the exact same thing. It's not the altitude. It's literally within us. We want to be gay, so let people be gay. Stop trying to be, I don't know, stupid. That's the only way. Idiotic is the only way to describe it. That was a really long answer, but I just. I hate it.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] I think that was perfect.

Samantha Shelley [00:53:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] Thank you. I'm sorry. You have to. It's got to be a little bit.

Daniel Spencer [00:53:17] No, but it's. It's a. Directly a part of my story. Right. Like, I have. I've had so many friends. That isn't even the first friend that did that. I've had multiple friends commit suicide who didn't want to come out. I'm pretty sure they were gay. I didn't know for sure. Right. But there's Gator. You feel it from each other. And the amount of friends that I had commit suicide. And then I would go at byu. At byu. Yeah. I can't mention names.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] Yeah, of course, but. Because you don't hear a lot. I mean, it takes, like, a student jumping off the highest floor of the Tanner Building in front of other students.

Daniel Spencer [00:53:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:54] To, like, ever hear about a BYU death by suicide.

Daniel Spencer [00:53:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] You know what I mean? It's got to be in front of everybody in a public building, and then you'll hear about it, and then.

Daniel Spencer [00:54:02] Yeah. Well, that was the thing. It felt like it was dusted under the rug. All of the suicides and it was all guys, it was all men in my ward, right? You'd go to a ward, suddenly a guy would disappear. What happened to him? Oh, he committed suicide. But don't tell anyone.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:19] Don't.

Daniel Spencer [00:54:19] We don't talk about that. Don't tell it, don't, don't say it out loud. And it's like, what, why, why are we not doing this? And so, and that was just. The other thing is it's like the church also wants to avoid conversations about depression in general. Right? Because that's also something they can't explain away. There's such a demand for perfection from people. And in some missions, you know, there's people that are like lax and they're like, yeah, my mission was fine, but in some ways you're cultivating a culture where people think they need to be absolutely so perfect to the point where they can't be human and normal. And I'll go back to my example with my, my companion that I had to apologize to. Like at a certain point it becomes inhumane to be so perfect and to demand that of people. And if you aren't trying to like relate or at least understand where people are coming from, then you are literally doing Satan's work of making sure that people commit suicide and don't live their lives to the fullest. As a Christian, that's just you, right? And if you're not doing that regularly and saying, how can I help this person in general, that's not Christ, like, right, that's not Christ like love, that's you trying to be Satan. Hey, we have to be absolutely perfect or else God is not going to love you type vibes.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] I maybe have mentioned this before, but it just blows me away. Like even a modern day corporation, you know, like one bad bottle of aspirin, they like stop the presses, recall all the aspirin and it's like, we'll figure it out, but we'll destroy everything we've made and start over if we need to because we're just not going to have an unsafe product.

Daniel Spencer [00:56:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] A religion can find out that thousands or tens of thousands of its own members are dying by self inflicted wounds. And they're just like, it's not us, it's, it's the elevation, it's, it's wickedness. But, but it's just, they just, they keep going. And you'd think it would take one, maybe five. Yep, maybe five.

Daniel Spencer [00:56:26] Yep. But thousands, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] I don't mean to get too upset, but, like. No, it's weird. And it's. And it's. And it's not a corporation. It's not.

Daniel Spencer [00:56:37] Well, it is. Yeah. I was gonna say it is, but

John Dehlin [00:56:40] I mean, it doesn't present as a corporation. It presents not just as a church, it presents as Jesus's one true church. So for it to be so calloused and disregarding of a literal death epidemic.

Daniel Spencer [00:56:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] It. It boggles the mind.

Daniel Spencer [00:56:58] Yeah. And they have the money, too, to do all the research they need to

John Dehlin [00:57:01] do just a few hundred billion.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [00:57:04] To be able to actually do that. That's another thing that frustrates me to know.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Make that point. Like, twice a year, the church does massive social studies surveys of its own members. And we've seen it. It's like, do you listen to podcasts? Do you want women to have the priesthood? Do you read your scriptures daily? They could say, are you gay? And do you want to die by being gay in this church? They could ask that. Yep.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:33] They changed the temple ceremony because of a market research study.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:37] This feels bigger than that.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Yeah. So why wouldn't we see that every single time the church issues a market research membership survey. Are you gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender? And does that make you want to die? But they don't even ask that question.

Samantha Shelley [00:57:53] And then to villain. On top of that, they villainize people for leaving the church because the people are upset with the church's homophobia. And they talk about it as if it's like, you're just following social trends as if it's something as small as that, you know, I mean, it's like thousands of people are killing themselves because of your doctrines and teachings. But you reduce people leaving over that to something like, oh, they're just following, you know, the winds of trends as if it's, well, just a fad thing.

Daniel Spencer [00:58:24] And that's the thing is, I feel like. I mean, I can't speak to, like, staying in the church now, but I. I definitely know that I am happier outside of it. Right. Like, I know that as soon as I started actually being myself, like, suddenly, I mean, I had to go through kind of an identity crisis of like, well, if I'm not the perfect Mormon guy, then who am I? But I know that once I came out of that, I suddenly became, like, happier. I wanted to address things that I had never addressed before. I wanted to start being again true to myself. And that has come with its own challenges, and that's come with its Own, like, you know, learning moments or, like, even depression, like, depressive episodes, but nothing as crazy or as bad as what Mormonism had done to me. Like, I have not been even as close to depressed as what I was at byu trying to be the perfect Mormon in the closet, right? Like, that was just such a weird culture to be able to try and like. Or just like, a weird character to cultivate, right? Because it was performance art. It was like, I have to be straight guy who does this, this, this, and ticks all these boxes, as opposed to just like, we'll just be a good human being and love everybody, care about everyone. Which is exactly what Jesus taught. Right? And that's what baffles me. It baffles me that we have to have all these weird additions. And it's just because, as you said, the history is so extensive in homophobia and kind of how they've cultivated this weird narrative around, like, being an organization and having all this money, having all this stuff, and not actually trying to address the problems and issues that they actually have, but instead just focusing on, well, like, hey, we've got some good podcasts for you guys if you need them. And we also are going to change the temple ceremony every now and then. And it's like, no, that's not a good enough excuse anymore. Like, we want to know why God didn't let black people have the priesthood. We want to know why gay people aren't allowed to be included in this plan that you have when especially, like, we're doing nothing to prevent that. Well, you're not, like, marrying women. Okay, but we've shown that that's not a good thing, right? Or is it just the altitude again? You know, it's so stupid to try and make those weird comparisons. So.

Being Openly Gay at BYU

John Dehlin [01:00:49] So you're, what, your sophomore year, byu, when you come out as gay to everyone?

Daniel Spencer [01:00:54] Not to everyone. Just. It was slowly. I mean, like, my. My. I came out to each sibling younger than me when they came back from their missions. I immediately, like, the moment they arrived. We'd go back to, like, my sister's house, and I'd be like, hey, by the way, I'm gay. And they'd be like, okay, cool. Again, no, like, real negative reaction to it. It was all very positive. But, yeah, around, like, 2017, 2018, that was when I started coming out to my family. And then I officially came out because all along, all in amongst this, I became a Mormon memerial. I started making a meme account at BYU around, like, 2017 1, because I felt like I wanted to get a lot of my frustrations out. I was like, I feel like there's jokes. There's better jokes to be made than just, like, what regular momentum is. Were doing at the time. There was some funny ones, but it was like, okay, but there's, like, better. There's a better joke here. There's a better joke about, like, I don't know, women in the priesthood or, like, Emma Smith or, like, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young wanting multiple wives or, like, any kind of topic. It felt like very, like, surface level. They weren't delving. And I was like, I want to delve through imager.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Was this through.

Daniel Spencer [01:02:10] This was through Instagram.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Instagram, yeah. Do you tell what your account was?

Daniel Spencer [01:02:14] It was called Provo Whole Life.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] Provo what?

Daniel Spencer [01:02:16] Provo. Whole Life.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Spell it.

Daniel Spencer [01:02:18] P, R, O, V, O, H, O, E, L, I, F, E. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] Does that still exist or.

Daniel Spencer [01:02:25] No, it got deleted during the BLM protests, actually. Because what I tried to use the more, like, it was interesting. It functioned as a meme account, but also as like, a discussion board. I would let people anonymously submit discussion topics about stuff, like things that I thought were culturally weird about Mormonism, like, for instance, the perfection and body stuff. So I'd ask people, would you date a girl that was plus size? And people would submit anonymously. And they'd submit and debate almost through dms. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And so we all. I did one where it was like, would you have a gay roommate? Like, would you be okay with having a gay roommate? And people would be like, no. Oh, I hate that. Oh, that's the weirdest thing. So I got a couple count violations, but then the BLM protest came through, and we started having a discussion, and this guy submitted this horribly racist opinion, and I put it up for people to see. He basically kind of just went on a racist rant about, like, this is typically how black people act, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I kept it anonymous. He honestly, he had like, an alt account. It felt like, but. And maybe it was just a troll, but I put it on there and it got permanently deleted for hate speech, which validates. I don't regret that. I don't, like, oh, this is the worst. But at the same time, it was a moment I think people needed to see because I was like, they are still racist people. They are still homophobic and very homophobic people. Because I don't think people acknowledge that in the church. I think people think like me, and that's it. Period. It's like, no the church, just, like the world, is full of diverse opinions. The problem and issue is that we don't confront our stuff. We don't talk about it. We just sit back and expect everyone to love each other and not talk about the controversial issues. Like, hey, there's a whole bunch of teens committing suicide in our community. Why are we not talking about that? They just want to sit back and do it. I did a poll. I did a whole discussion board about the suicidal teen epidemic, essentially, in LDS communities and people, the amount of opinions that were like, well, they can't prove that. They can't do that. Oh, well, the church doesn't. You know, there's no actual research to back that. And it's like, okay, but why is there no research? What has been preventing that research from being done? Have people been paid to not do that research? Because it feels like a good enough reason to do the research in the first place? So why the hell are we not seeing any studies from anyone? You'd think that Glad would do it or something like that. Or maybe people have been doing the research and have been blocked and. Or can't get the accurate numbers because guess what? LDS members don't want to say, yeah, maybe my teen is gay. Or they don't want to admit. Or at least teens don't want to admit. In the same way that I would never have admitted to being homosexual when I was 16. Right. So stuff like that, where it's just like, you only can do so much with how much the church culture has blocked being able to get those answers from people. And so, like, that's how I wanted my meme account to work. I wanted it to be a conversation piece, essentially.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] Man, I don't. We're not. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but, like, if you think about how much money and effort the church put in to helping Proposition 8 win versus how almost how potentially no money the church put in to solving the LGBT suicide crisis within Mormonism. Yeah, that's a dark thought.

Daniel Spencer [01:05:57] Yeah. I have so many gay friends that were like, oh, yeah, I remember protesting Prop 8. Like, I remember being on the streets, and now look at me. I'm gay, doing this sort of stuff. And I was like, it's crazy that for a lot of those people, that was a moment in their memory that they had to be like, no, we hate gay people. And it just fed into their depression and their, like, anxiety about the whole situation. Like, if anything, it exacerbated their depression about it. You. It sucks. It's the worst thing possible.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] What's it like being a gay student at byu? That.

Daniel Spencer [01:06:31] That's a funny question, because I feel like there's part of me that, honestly, after going to BYU and being on my mission, thinks that people are more queer than they want to let off, right? I think a lot more guys, especially after serving missions, are more sexually motivated to test and experiment than they want to tell people, right? I had a lot of interesting queer moments with roommates who would. I don't know. I can't. I don't know how far I can go. Had a few cuddle sessions with some guys in garments, right? Had a few moment weird moments where guys would, like, come and, like, hug you from behind. And they were like, I just love you. You're such a good roommate. And you're like, this doesn't feel great, right? Like, stuff like that is always just so. Was so weird to me because I was like, these dudes want to express, I think gaily. And it doesn't even have to be as far as, like, I want to kiss a guy, I want to have sex with a guy. But I think we're all naturally connected as human beings to wanting to love each other and hold each other and tell people or each other intimate things. But the problem is that the church has created this culture of manhood needs to look like this, Womanhood needs to look like this. Women are sensitive little baby things that can't commit sins and they can't do anything. And men are the protectors, and they can't. And they can't go outside of that. They have to be these men, these workers who constantly work for the money, right? Like, there's just all these weird narratives around, like, particularly gender and sexuality that are so weird. And I think it makes BYU and attending byu, especially as a gay person, so intriguing because you just have to watch it happen. Like, I would go. I'd have a lot of. I had a lot of girlfriends. Like, all of my friends were pretty much girls at byu. I couldn't, like, really hang out with the bros. I had a few, like, friend groups that were dudes. But I was never, like, really, like, good at being a part of the bro. Like, bro groups. I'd be like, yeah, this is crazy. Also, like, straight men are so gay. Like, they just act. They just want to get naked in front of each other all the time. I was like, you guys aren't even drunk. Like, you don't have the excuse of, like, alcohol in this situation. Like, and you're just wanting to get naked. Okay, cool. And that was the other thing. I think I also learned, like, that I don't. I don't know. I always kind of thought of myself as a sexual monster when I was growing up. Right? Like, gay people can't control their sexuality. Gay people are so, so, so, like, sexually motivated. And I was like, these guys are getting naked in front of me. I feel nothing. Like, I do not feel attracted to these men. If anything, I feel less attracted to these men because they are being too gay. Like, it was like this weird, like, addressing of just like years and years of like, you're an abomination. You're going to want to be. You're going to have a boner in front of everyone every time a man pulls out his penis, right? It was like, oh, I have control over these thoughts and feelings. And the. My desire for intimacy was much, much stronger than anything else. Right. Like, I just wanted to find people that I connected with emotionally. And I would say that I'm like, demisexual gay. Right. Like, I connect emotionally to a lot of people, and that's how I, like, become attracted to people in general. But I think that was a desire for a lot of people at byu. I think a lot of people just wanted to tell me how they thought and felt and wanted to be. And I think I was like this weird caveat of like. Or like a place where people felt like they could open up a little bit. And it was just because I felt that I wanted to tell people a lot of stuff, but I couldn't, you know? And so I ended up being just like this. Yeah, just kind of this, like, I don't know, talking board. I don't know what you'd call me, honestly. A therapist. There we go. We'll go with that for a lot of people. And it was. It was just interesting. And I think that's what translated into like, the discussion pieces on the Meme account. Because I felt like I had all these friends that were dealing with so much. I had girlfriends who were like, men don't want to date me because I'm slightly above the average weight. Or black friends at byu, particularly my African friends would be like, girls don't want to date me because I'm black. Or if they do date me, they, like, fetishize me and tell me that, like, they love my dark skin or I'm just like a box to tick. Like, I kissed a black guy. Right? It was like this weird moment of like, oh, there are so many bigger problems than just me being gay. And I want to address all of that, and I want to make memes about that, and I want to, like, have people talk about that at byu. And I. My hope is that I did something for that. You know, I. I hope that I, like, created some sort of conversation. Even now, when I'm making my BYU interviews, you have people. I made the Porn or die video the other day and explain what that is. I went to BYU and asked BYU students if they would rather die a horrible and excruciating death or watch a porn video, a singular porn video. And a lot, actually, the majority, if you count it, said, I would rather die than watch a porn video. Now we know that those students probably have watched porn.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] Probably watched it earlier that day.

Daniel Spencer [01:11:56] Yes, exactly. And it was funny. It was mostly men. All the women were like, oh, porn, right? Most of the. Most of the women were like, yeah, porn. All the guys were like, oh, I die. Oh, yeah, I'd rather die. And so it's just like, you can't be yourself. You can't talk about yourself. You can't. In the right way. I don't know. You can't just be honest with yourself as well. But a lot of people were like, well, I got like, DMS from particularly my. My friends that are still members. Being like, was your goal to make us look like a cult with that video? Why did you do that? Why would you want to make us look bad? Why do you? I was like, I'm not trying to make anyone look bad. I have no malicious intent when I'm making videos like that. It's a funny question that I think even as members of the church, you can take into account, like, hey, this is a stupid answer. And this feels like the obvious. There's an obvious choice, and there's a less obvious choice. And clearly the obvious choice isn't in the majority. And it's crazy that at BYU we don't address it that way. It's crazy. And then they want to come forward and say, we don't have the suicidal problem in our community. And it's like, okay, these kids just said they want to die, then be absolutely perfect. Should we address that? Can that start the research on maybe why there's such a high suicide rate in Mormon communities? Because that feels like a moment where you can do that. And that's what I want to do. I've had these questions my whole life, and as a comedian, I want to address it in a funny and accessible way, but it's also starting the conversation, and that's all it's about for me, I don't want to go in and be like, I'm going to absolutely disprove the entire church. And if a video like that is doing that for the church, maybe the church isn't that great, right? Like, maybe you don't have a super strong foundation in the first place. For me, I want to make funny videos that make people think and feel in the exact same way that I would do that at byu. I would do that at any other school that has a weird cultural problem. Right. But it just so happens that I'm at byu. I'm currently in the place where BYU is. And so Daniel's gonna go and film some funny videos and see what he can get out of that particular school.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] I think it's cool that you were doing sort of man on the street on location videos at BYU even before the Black Menaces. And they're awesome. But I love Black Menaces.

Daniel Spencer [01:14:21] Yeah. I love Black Menaces to no end. Like, they. What I love about Black Menaces is that they took it a step further. I mean, I did the swearing video for sure beforehand. I did the swearing video. I also did one where I was like, finish the lyrics. And that was right before the pandemic. So we didn't really get a chance to really delve into it until, you know, kind of after the pandemic has kind of slowed down. But what I loved about Black Menace is they just went in being like, we're just gonna ask the serious questions. Because that's, again, it's just. It's just asking people questions and seeing their reaction be, like, absolutely heinous and insane. Like, you're like, I don't know what I'm watching, but I'm watching people be stupid. Like, that's all it is. And so I think that what I love about the Black Menaces and what I love about doing my stuff is that members of the church get to see members of the church act differently than what they thought because they. Again, I think we all think that we're an amalgamation, that we're all thinking the exact same way. And there can't be other people that think differently. We are all Christ. Like, we all care about each other. And it's like, no, there are still a lot of racist people. There are still a lot of homophobic people. There are still a lot of people that think that polygamy is okay.

Samantha Shelley [01:15:34] Right?

Daniel Spencer [01:15:35] And that's something that needs to be addressed. We have to address it as a community because it's important. And if we don't, then like, what's the point of literally being a part of a church that preaches those doctrines? If they're told to be kind and Christ like, then be kind and Christ like, and help people live their best lives. Do the research. Ask people deeper questions than just like, how are you today, sister? So and so, brother. So and so. That's so nice. Anyway, I'm going to continue on my day. Ask people real questions about their faith. Ask them about the testimony beyond. Do you believe in the Book of Mormon? Delve into their like, testimonies a little bit so that you can understand if your community is worth something supporting. Because right now I think a lot of people from watching Black Menace's videos or anything like that think it's enough. Like they're attacking us. They're trying to show tick tock that we're all these bad people. And it's like, no, we're just showing you the flaws so that you can fix them. I think a lot of my friends, they like to say, at least the ones that are staying in. And I've had like deep conversations with these friends, so I hope they don't take offense to this. But I have a lot of friends that are like, we want to stay in the church so we can fix it. And it's like, okay, then fix it right? If you're gonna stay, address the stuff that needs to be addressed. Don't be like, hey, we'll just kind of like do it in a passive way. We're just gonna do it. The only way it's gonna change is if you start confronting it and demanding change from the leaders up top and saying, we want research, we want doctrinal changes, or at least answers. What frustrates me the most about the church is that I grew up being taught. And I don't know if this is actual doctrine, so maybe you can correct this, John, but I was taught my whole life that the apostles every week talk to Jesus in the temple room. Like that was something I learned on my mission. That was another way.

John Dehlin [01:17:29] It's a value proposition. They're special witnesses of Christ. Yeah, they're ordained as prophets and revelators. They take on the additional title of Special Witnesses of Christ. We aired today a two part interview with the grandson of Joseph B. Wirthland, Mormon Apostle. And that was the number one question. He, as the grandson of an apostle, God, it's like, hey, does your grandpa really talk to Jesus? Because everyone thinks he does. Get this. Can you guess whether he ever asked his Grandpa. Whether he actually did.

Daniel Spencer [01:17:58] Probably not too scared.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] So I think about this. It's, it's, it's like the number one thing that everyone thinks. It's not too scared. There was just a culture where you don't.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] You just don't.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:08] Like, it would be seen as irreverent to ask.

John Dehlin [01:18:10] Yeah. Like, it's just a taboo. And so, like, it's, it's, it's the core value proposition of being a Mormon apostle. It's what everyone's asking. It's what you want to know. It's your grandpa. And you never asked the question. Like, it's so weird.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:24] So weird.

John Dehlin [01:18:25] But then, but then I asked him, you know, what's your best guess as to what your grandpa would say if you asked him directly if he had seen an apostle? And Joseph B. Worland, apparently was one of the cool ones because his opinion was. Oh, he would have said no.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:37] Yeah, I wish. But that's my, that's, that's my whole thing is I just wish, you know, if, if we're going to keep going with this narrative of, like, these guys talk to God.

John Dehlin [01:18:49] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:50] There are answers that God can give.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:18:52] And it's not about, like, I, I demand it of God because I think that also comes in the argument of people being like, well, we can't demand answers from God. And it's like, okay. But I'm pretty sure God wants to know why all the teens are committing suicide in the church. I'm pretty sure that's something you can ask God about. Hey, God, why does this keep happening? And I'm pretty sure God is going to be like, it's the altitude, guys. Hey, it's the mountains. We live in so many mountains. Oh, crazy.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] Let me ask you this. What was it? So, okay, when I was going to byu, there were these rumors. And this is more like what I heard about BYU after I left, because I ran in very orthodox. I ran in almost no circles. It was like, get straight A's, be a ta, try and find a wife. That was my life. Right. Occasionally do intramural sports. Like, that was my life at byu. But then later I heard that there were gay people at byu, and I'm like, really? There were gay people? And then you hear that they had to do really creative things to meet each other. And, you know, it's the type of stuff that I don't want to mischaracterize, but, like, it's like in bathrooms and in truck stops. And this was pre, like, Craigslist or whatever. Where they had to find ways to meet each other and. And to find intimacy or connection.

Daniel Spencer [01:20:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] So did you even. Did you just kind of shut that all part of yourself down or. And I also don't want you to make it dangerous for anyone else.

Daniel Spencer [01:20:18] No, I'm not yet.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] So I don't even know how to ask this question in an appropriate way. So just whatever you feel safe and comfortable saying about, like, being a gay BYU student when you probably are looking for a little bit of love like every other student at the university. Right. That's, like, the number one thing they're all doing is, like, trying to find love. Yeah. Right. What's that like for you?

Daniel Spencer [01:20:39] It. I mean, it was very scary. I. Yeah, it was scary. I. What? I think I came into BYU in the age of, like, apps.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Tinders, right?

Daniel Spencer [01:20:51] Yeah, Tinder. Well, we have Grindr, right? So a lot of guys would just stay secret. I downloaded Grindr a couple times, and I just talk to guys about their testimonies and stuff like that. I'd be like, hey, like, is this something, you know? I. Like, I'd be lying if I didn't say, like, yeah, I definitely downloaded Grindr. Had a few conversations. A lot of guys would send me, like, nudes, and they'd be like, now you? And I'd be like, ah. And this is where I delete it, because I was so scared. I was so afraid of, like, being found out.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] These are fellow BYU students, maybe.

Daniel Spencer [01:21:22] I mean, a few of them, probably. Yeah. I, Like, I never went far enough in conversation to be honest with you. I download grindr for, like, 10 minutes, and I talk, and I just couldn't. I couldn't bring myself to, like, do anything with anyone. Like, I was so, so afraid. Like, I was like, what can happen? What could go wrong? I remember one summer, my. I downloaded Tinder for the first time, and I just. I was like, I'm gonna leave it for a week. I'll see what happens. And I did. And I honestly kept. Well, I said I was gonna keep leaving for a week. I left it for, like, a day, and then I deleted it because I was like, I'm too nervous. Like, I. I've heard horror stories about people being kicked out. And essentially what ended up happening was that my sister's friends tried to, like, out me. Or, like, they kind of out to me. They were like, oh, we heard that Daniel's on Tinder. And I think it was less of a play coming from a place of, like, oh, he's gay, so you need to Fix that. It was, like, also protectionist, where it was like, hey, Daniel needs to not be on Tinder. Like, don't let Daniel be on Tinder. So there's part of me that, like, is frustrated that they would, like, even try and do that with, like, my sister. But there's also part of me that's, like. I think they were also kind of looking out for me in a little way. Like, a little bit of a way, because BYU has a horrible history of treating LGBTQ students horribly. And that was shown. The reason one of the major reasons I dropped out of BYU was because of that weird flip they did. Right. As the pandemic hit. I talk about that. Oh, it was crazy. So basically what happened is that in the honor code, you commit to not doing any homosexual acts, I guess. And they. If I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you guys might know better. But from what I understand, they in secret removed that kind of. I don't know, the actual, like, section of homosexual acts. They removed it entirely. So it just was kind of, like, open. And I don't know how it was revealed. I don't know if they, like, released a press. It just got out.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] You almost get the sense that, like, lawyers said if you explicitly prohibit, quote, homosexual behavior, you might be liable for some discrimination stuff later.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:46] Exactly. Well, and it was right around that point, right?

John Dehlin [01:23:49] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:23:49] There was a whole bunch of stuff about, like, the Big Ten wanting us in. It was around that moment. It was around. There was that moment. Like, the site. Yeah. Football leagues, the scientific community had been, like, denied. They were like, we're going to deny BYU's credentials or BYU professors credentials.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] Accreditation.

Daniel Spencer [01:24:06] Accreditation if they. They discriminate. And so I think they had to, in some way shape or form remove the homophobic language from the honor code. But.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] But then they also didn't want. They probably didn't want a bunch of BYU kids acting gay. And so. But they removed it, and someone found out.

Daniel Spencer [01:24:23] And see. Well, yeah. And so all the gay kids start tweeting about it. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. They thought what Provo Twitter was like, hey, gay people, we're allowed to be gay on BYU campus. Who's happy? And so we all, a whole bunch of students went to the honor code office, and they were like, hey, so we saw the languages removed from the honor code. Does that mean we're allowed to, like, be gay? And they were like, I guess. Yeah, right. So suddenly, BYU students are kissing the same gender on campus. We're celebrating. And it was a week of celebration. Just absolutely rejoicing.

The Honor Code Crisis and Queer Student Protests

John Dehlin [01:24:57] You were there at the time?

Daniel Spencer [01:24:58] Uh huh. Still attending. It was my final semester. Oh, second to last semester. I honestly, again, horrible, horrible grades because of depression. So I'm not going to attribute it to just that. Right. Like, I understand that, like I wasn't like the best student, but I was like, I'm going to finish strong. We'll see how it goes. But at this point, I'm also popping off on TikTok. Like my TikTok has gone over a million followers at this point. People are like, the vibe Check videos had just started being successful. I just released a swearing video on BYU campus.

Samantha Shelley [01:25:28] Had you done Provo's Most Eligible yet?

Daniel Spencer [01:25:30] I had done Provo's Most Eligible and

Samantha Shelley [01:25:31] it had come out.

Daniel Spencer [01:25:32] And it had come out and I'm out at this point. I am a prominent gay in the Mormon community at byu. People are like, this is a BYU gay. One of the BYU gays, right? And so it comes out and people are like, so weird. One of the gays, one of the gays. But I felt like a lot of people were like, and how do you feel? And I was like, I feel great. I feel the exact same way that all the other gay students. And I felt like, and this is my honest truth, I don't feel like I was being very real to myself. I feel like there were so many other kids at BYU that were so much more themselves and queer in the right kind of ways. And I don't want to say that in the right way because that makes it sound like there's a particular way to act. I just feel like they were more real and people were coming to me for like, answers. And I was just like, I don't have the answer, but I know that I am loving the energy from the queer community on campus and we're all celebrating there. I remember that weekend I did a comedy show and then they had like parties back to back every night and we had a giant gay party where everyone was like kissing and people were like, make sure you kiss the same gender and like dance with someone who's the same gender and all this sort of stuff. It was wonderful, just beautiful. I know that was the first moment I feel like I had, and I've said this before on a couple other podcasts, but I had experienced love, like genuine love from a community, right? Like, I was like, this is so beautiful. Like, this is like a wonderful moment for gay people at BYU because we get to be ourselves. Like there's no holding back. There's nothing. Like, again, we are. It's equality. Straight students are allowed to date. We're allowed to date, period. That's equality. That's it. That's all we wanted. We. We're not trying to have sex in front of you. Right? Because that's all straight people care about is like, oh, just don't have sex. Don't hit on me. Don't have sex in front of me. Right? But we suddenly had moments where we were like, oh, yeah, we get to do the exact same thing that the straights do.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Hold hands.

Daniel Spencer [01:27:39] Hold hands, kiss occasionally, go on dates. Right? Yeah, we all sign the same on a code, right? We know that we're not allowed to have sex, but, hey, we're allowed to at least, like, do the stuff that other kids get to do. And it was a beautiful moment. And then a week later, they reversed it. And I remember the reversal because I was in a statistics class, and suddenly my phone starts buzzing notifications. And people are like, well, tell us how you feel. Tell us how you feel. You see now. And over that weekend, I had also done a set and filmed it. A set about how gay straight people were like. I was like, I am so angry at these people that are so angry about BYU reversing the stuff that I want to do a set. And I was like, you're. We're all a little gay. Like, you can't deny that you're a little gay in some way, shape or form that's online. You can look that up. But I remember writing that said just from the heart and just being so frustrated. And once I got it out, I saw, like, people were, like, so happy with it. I was like, yes, this is wonderful. But I don't know where that, like, meant nothing because BYU reversed the entire policy. And so it was like. And they didn't even reverse it. They still, I think, for legal reasons, kept the lingo out.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] They did.

Daniel Spencer [01:28:56] But guess what? Hey, you can still be punished for being homosexual at byu.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] It's just not the. It's just not written anymore.

Daniel Spencer [01:29:03] It's just not written in the. Yeah, yeah. So what am I agreeing to in the honor code if I am not agreeing to that? Right? So, so stupid. Anyway, they. I remember coming out of the statistics class and being so angry and frustrated and just seeing all of. All of the queer people that I had now become friends with because we all came out, like, we all kind of came out at that point. I had already come out, like, publicly, but I didn't know any other gay people. And then suddenly, all the gay people were like, yeah, we're all gay.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] Right? That's what they'll do, right?

Daniel Spencer [01:29:34] But we. Yeah, I had met other gay people, and it was so beautiful. Just queer people in general, and it was wonderful. And then it was suddenly taken away from us. And I remember one. I remember crying because I was like. And again, as you have seen on this podcast, I'm not an emotional person. I don't let out emotions very easily. It's hard for me to, like, even get emotions out. But I remember bawling. And I was walking through to the Wilkinson center, like, courtyard area. And as I'm walking through, there's a crowd of people standing on the outskirts of protesters. And all the gay students that I have been partying that whole weekend with are protesting right on the steps. And then there's a. There's, like, a gap. And then there's, like, all the BYU students. And I'm walking through that crowd, and they're like, ugh, these gay people. Oh, my gosh, they're being so over the top. You don't even need to protest. What's wrong with these people? And in that moment, I just realized, like, how deep the hate was. Like, I was like, I have tried because my coming out on my, like, meme account, my coming out after Prof. Is most eligible. Stuff like, that was to try and be like, hey, there's gay people among you. Like, there's queer people all around you. And. And you need to be, like, aware of that. Like, again, I wanted to. I hated being a conversation piece, but I felt like I needed to be, because it was like, here we are. Like, you've just taken away the one opportunity we have for equality, and we're standing in front of you angry and frustrated, and all the students can think is like, oh, here we go again. The gays being gays, gays being emotional, gays being over the top. And I just walked through that crowd. I went. My friend just came and hugged me because she could see me crying. She hugged me. We joined the protest. I remember one of the sisters from my mission. I hadn't seen her, like, in a long time. Honestly, I didn't hang out with her. And she just came up and she's like, like, what's the goal here? Like, what's your goal with protesting this? And I was like, equality? And she was like, okay, but what does that look like? And I was like, it looks like us not having to protest whether we can hold hands or Date someone on campus. It's exactly what you agree to. We're not going to have sex, but at least we can, like, be with each other. Because that was the other thing. I feel like before that, people had been, like. People had dealt with, like, honor code. The honor code office contacting them because they, like, had held hands with someone of the same gender, and their roommate reported them anonymously. Right. So suddenly they're dealing with. Oh, we heard from someone. We're not allowed to tell you who. Saying that you are being gay. In what way? You held hands. Oh, is that bad? No, but we were just making sure that you're not gay.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] And it's, like, not acting gay.

Daniel Spencer [01:32:35] Not acting gay.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:32:37] Not acting too. Yeah, not acting too gay. It's so stupid. And so. Yeah. And that's the other thing. I also knew, like, again, no one, like, really close, but people had been expelled. Friends of friends had been expelled for being homosexual in some way, shape, or form. You know, they did stuff. And so it was just really frustrating. And in that moment, I was, like, so angry. I did a vibe check. BYU. It got, like, 250,000 likes, over a million views. And I was like, I'm gonna expose byu. I'm done with byu. I hate byu. This is bad. And I'm gonna use everything in my power as like, a prominent tiktoker right now to try and take this narrative further than just, like, where it's at. Problem was that that was the same week we went into lockdown. So we're protesting. New York Times gets a hold of the story. Everyone's, like, being interviewed. All of us queer students are doing stuff. The light, the why? There's a guy on Twitter called the Mormon Informant. He contacts me and is like, hey, I have all these lights in rainbow colors. We're gonna light the Y because they can't do anything about it because we're not actually vandalizing anything. We're just lighting up the why the same way they light up the Y, but this time we'll do it in rainbow colors. And I was like, period. Who? We'll. We'll light up the Y in the rainbow colors. That'll be so awesome. But again, lockdown. We keep trying to come back to it, and eventually the light the Y became part of the rain. You know, color the campus movement. And I love that, just because it felt like a more positive energy than just, like, anything, but it felt like it kind of, like, undermined or just like the fire burning within me just, like, was completely extinguished. And I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't put it anyway. I couldn't, like, do anything because rightfully so, the pandemic took all the new space and had become the topic of conversation. And so there was, like, nothing we could really do as queer students at byu, because the conversation had ended at that point. There was more important things and more important problems to focus on, but it was still a problem, right?

John Dehlin [01:34:45] Really quickly, what's a vibe check?

Daniel Spencer [01:34:47] Oh, I do videos where I pretend to be a council of people who vibe check people and tell people if what they're doing is a vibe or not. So that was part of my comedy, and I use that for other reasons. But I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do it to BYU for being homophobic. And so, yeah, that spring semester, I had. Honestly, I. In. In and amongst all that time, I had started dating a guy. A guy would come out, like, we just, like, hang out, and we spent lockdown. I kissed him while I was at byu. And on my second date, I was like, fuck it, I hate byu. I'm gonna have sex with this guy. And I didn't have sex. We just, like, we definitely were naked, which was fun, but I remember cuddling with him, and I remember thinking, may, oh, this feels so amazing. Like, I was like, this feels beautiful. Like, I feel so good. How can anyone tell me that this is bad? And in that moment, I was like, I remember I had taken off my garments. I had one pair of underwear before this whole experience. I was like, I'm still going to respect the garment. I want to be respectful to my covenants, but I'm gonna have sex. Afterwards, I took off my garments and I told my sisters, okay, I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna buy some more underwear. And I think I'm just gonna be gay. And they were like, okay. Which is what they always wanted. They were like, you just need to be gay. But they were like, just wait till you're done with byu. And I was like, no, I'm gonna do it now because we're in the pandemic, and who's gonna find out Anyway? Started having sex with this guy. It was wonderful. But I also had a breakup with him. And that spring semester, not a breakup, but, like, it was my first time. Like, not. Or having someone be like, yeah, this is a breakup. And it was my first heart heartbreak. But I had also experimented with edibles. So I have a depressive episode. A literal. I'm not even joking. A mental breakdown, because I don't know how to process it. I can't tell anyone. I don't know who to tell. I'm stuck in my house. I can't. I feel like I love my siblings, but at that point, they weren't the same as they are now, right? Like, I couldn't be honest with them, or at least I felt that way, right? Like, I was like, ah, they're gonna judge me for. Because they had. They had judged me. I had, like, a couple hickeys on my neck from the first time. And they were like, oh, Daniel, that's not good, Dan. Don't do that. Anyway, I have a mental breakdown and I end up in hospital. And they're like, what's the problem? And I was like, I smoke weed or not smoke weed. I. I eat weed. And they're like, oh, it's the weed. Then the weed is making you, like, suicidal and depressed. And I was like, I can't even tell people that I'm still gay. And so I. I still was, like, living a lie in a lot of ways. So for the first moment in my life, I wanted to. It was the first moment in my life where I was like, I need to find myself and I need to figure out who I am as a person. And I spent all of lockdown very, very angry and depressed because I couldn't. I couldn't find a new community. I couldn't go out and find new friends. I couldn't find people to talk to about this stuff. And I couldn't afford therapy at the time. So I was just kind of stuck in my house being angry. And I moved into a house with a whole bunch of guys who were wonderful. They were great, but they were all. They had all just left the church too. But they had been watching this podcast called Mormon Stories, and they had been reading a whole bunch of church history, and they've been watching Zelf on the Shelf and subscribing to their Patreon. And they all kind of just helped me process all the weirdnesses with the church. Shout out to Ethan Bliss. Ethan, I know you're probably listening to this. Ethan Bliss was so wonderful in just, like, how he helped me gauge where I was at Faith Wise, because I had suddenly I. I had lost my community. I felt like my meme account got deleted in the BLM moment. And that was kind of around the same time. So I wasn't like a meme a moment meme anymore. And I wasn't a Mormon content creator. I was still a comedian and I still had my tick Tock, which had always been a good thing for me to just kind of let out my. My queerness in general.

John Dehlin [01:39:42] But you weren't at BYU anymore.

Leaving BYU and Finding a New Path

Daniel Spencer [01:39:44] I wasn't at BYU anymore. I was also worried because I was like, I just dropped out of school because I hate the school. So what am I going to do now? Like, what does my life look like now that I don't have BYU anymore? Am I going to be a comedian when you can't go on stage? During the pandemic, like, there were so many questions I had, and suddenly I had. I was confronted with just identity, like, who I was, what I was going to do with my life. Who am I as a person? And in that house, I. I did a lot of experimentation. I remember I tried everything under the sun except for coffee. And I remember standing outside of Peace on Earth Coffee. Shout out to Peace on Earth Coffee. Very queer place in Provo. I feel like that's where all of my queer dates have happened, or at least my first few gay dates. And I remember going to Peace on Earth and not knowing how to order coffee. I didn't know what was good, so I was just like, I'll just have a coffee. And they were like, just black coffee. I was like, black coffee. Yeah, that sounds great. I just put some sugar in it. I put, like, one packet of sugar and was like, a large coffee. Like this. Started drinking. I was like, this tastes like burnt popcorn. I don't like this. And so. And now I know how to order coffee.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] It's lattes. All about the lattes.

Daniel Spencer [01:41:02] Yes. Oh, yeah. And so it's been this weird, like, learning moment for me where I spent the last two years not really knowing who I was or what I wanted to do with my life, if I was still going to be a comedian. And I took a huge break from social media because I feel like my anger was kind of coming out on social media. And I felt bad for my normal audience because I was like, I'm struggling. I don't know what I'm doing. Right? Like, I don't know. I don't know who I am. And I don't want to. I don't want people feeling bad for me because of that. I don't want to, like, depress anyone else with that. And I felt like I was doing that. And then I realized that I have a huge support system outside of myself right there. There are people. I made friends with a few gay guys over the pandemic. And once the pandemic started slowing down, we started expanding our friend group, and we started meeting other gay guys. So that's been beautiful. I've. I've made friends with tons of gay guys now, which is wonderful. I went to my first pride parade, and slowly, as I've been actually, like, accepting myself, I feel like I've been. Become more confident in what I want to do, who I am. I started making videos again. I sort of doing comedy again. And doing comedy the way I wanted to do it, talking about the stuff that I've wanted to talk about, asking the questions that I want to ask, and actually going to Mormon spaces and saying, what should we talk about? Because there are things that you need to address that we need to talk about. And so my goal now with my comedy career and what I'm writing, my friend Adam Browd, he runs, you mentioned it earlier, Comedy Church. He started doing that, and it was. I managed to film a special with him there, which was wonderful. But we wrote this whole BYU script, this pilot series, and it was very, like, therapeutic for me at least, because we wrote about what it was like to be a queer Mormon for the first time at byu. And suddenly I was addressing all the things that I've been thinking, thinking and feeling and experienced at BYU while I was there in secret. You know, all the weirdnesses of just going out in secret and, like, meeting up with random dudes who would be like, they had their scriptures out when you went to the hookup and stuff like that, Right? Like, such weird stuff happening. And those moments were, like, so beautiful. And that was over the pandemic. And it was just a wonderful moment to kind of say, like, oh, I can do this. I can be a comedian and still be Mormon and have that be a part of my narrative, but not have to do it in a way that it feels angry or depressed, but feels motivated in wanting it to change and be more respectful and thoughtful and caring of the people that they have raised up. Because that's. The other thing is, I don't think I'll stop in the same way that Mormons always claim it, because this is the other thing. Mormons will claim other Mormons till the day they die. It doesn't matter if they've left the church or not. People still are like, ryan Gosling is Mormon, right? Oh, Christina Aguilera is Mormon. Like, I feel like I grew up with all those narratives. And it's like, no, those people are done with the church, though. And they're like, no, no, no. But there's still Mormon. So it's like, okay, but If I'm gonna be Mormon and you're gonna claim me as Mormon at one point, I don't think they will now, because they're like, that one's gay. We don't want that one. But if that's going to be the case, I want my narrative to be honestly something of. Or at least the narrative to be, this guy came into our lives and he's telling the story the way it's supposed to be told, and it's accurate. It's not sugarcoated, and it's not missing parts. He is telling the story how it's been told, how it's supposed to be told. And I put that in my standup. I put that in my script writing. I am still, or at least still have Mormon in me. And I think that that's the motivation. It's like, there are parts of all of us that we need to talk about that we all need to share that we don't get out. And if we shared more about ourselves and who we are as people, but particularly members of the church, I think the church would be a lot better of a place. Right? Like, if my parents could be as honest with everyone else as they are with me, I'm pretty sure that it would be a beautiful and wonderful experience to just say, like, hey, the older generation, even though you're older, talk about your emotions and feelings. My generation, my siblings, I'm pretty sure that if they could be like, hey, why aren't gay people allowed to, like, actually be a part of our communities? We'd be a lot better off as a community. Right? I don't think. I don't identify as Mormon anymore, but I know that it's in my history, and I know that I have, like, that narrative to tell. And so I just love. I want members of the church, if they're listening to this, to know that I care about you and I love you. And the only reason that I do the things that I do is so that you can make the church a better place. Right? Make it better, because it needs to be. It doesn't need to be this, like, oppressive, crazy, weird, honestly, like, ignorant place. It needs to be loving and Christlike and beautiful, and it needs to be as beautiful as you think it is. And the only thing I'd say to that is just make it that way. So, yeah, I think that's my. That's my moment story.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] You wish we were done? No, we've got a few more minutes. No, that's beautiful. So really quickly. So one of the Things I love about comedians. And I. I've been a. I grew up with my parents watching the Smothers Brothers. I grew up watching the first seasons of Saturday Night Live with. With John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd and Bill Murray and Steve Martin and Gilda Radner and Jane Curtin and all those. Garrett Morrison. So I've been a fan of comedy, but I've met a lot of comedians. Ben Washburn was a comedian I interviewed on Mormon Stories. Another guy named Mike Grover I've had on Mormon Stories. Just. I found comedians to be highly intelligent because comedy is hard work. It's hard to be funny.

Daniel Spencer [01:47:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:40] So generally speaking, I just have to say, I found communities to be very intelligent, but it's such a powerful and dangerous vehicle. Because it's fun.

Daniel Spencer [01:47:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] And it's. But it's. It's. It's so. I envy funny people because they get to say stuff and they get to have an impact that serious people don't get to say or can't.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] And so that's why I just have to. It's just me paying homage.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] To a comedian, because I really respect the craft.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:08] Like, I watch. Marvelous, Mrs. Maisel. Marvelous. Yep. I mean, I'm into comics. So. Anyway, bless you for that. Thank you. Does Cara count as a comic? Do we get to count? Do you. Do you and Tanner, do you guys count?

Samantha Shelley [01:48:23] I guess.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:24] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:26] As well.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] You too. So you too, Sam. You two. Tanner.

Samantha Shelley [01:48:29] I write stand up and never perform it.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:31] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:48:32] But one day. Anyway, thumbs up to comics I met. Is it Tracy from Studio C or.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:41] Oh, Stacey.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] Stacy.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:42] Stacy, hockey. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] He comedian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I met him just for the first time this weekend, so.

Daniel Spencer [01:48:48] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [01:48:49] Anyway, shout out to Mormon comics. Mormon and post Mormon comics, really quickly, normally. And I. We. We can like, just two. Do two minutes on this, but normally I have people just talk about, like, the historical or the truth claim stuff that really took them out because there's the. There's the emotional processing. There's a social justice processing. There's like, this is killing me or this isn't working for me. But oftentimes you still need to do the intellectual processing of, like, what about the Book of Mormon? What about Joseph Smith? What about priesthood authority? What about the one true church? Yeah. What about those spiritual experiences I had when I flipped to the right page just in time and, you know, and that. That healing. Wait, the healing wasn't a good example. But anyway, you get my point. Talk us through in a couple minutes. Your intellectual Deconstruction of what were the things that were most troublesome to you or confirming of your decision that maybe for you, the church wasn't what you thought.

Reasons for Leaving the Church

Daniel Spencer [01:49:46] Yeah, well, first of all, I'm gay. That was just like. That was just like, an immediate one that sticks out. I did, you know, in that house that I was talking about with Ethan and all the other guys, we never, you know, a lot of. For a lot of them, I always thought it was funny that for them, they kind of needed a lot of the other info. And it wasn't necessarily they needed it. It's just like they had all this other info that they needed to, like, make sure it wasn't for me. It was just like, no, I'm gay. And I don't like how the church doesn't address certain things. Particularly, like, even during blm, all this other stuff.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] But I had a. Like, I had Gary and Ernie on last week. Margi and I interviewed Gary and Ernie. That'll be an interview really soon. But. But, like, when. When Ernie ended up. When Ernie's wife, Mormon wife, ended up leaving him and taking the kids. Yeah, he ended up having a Mormon boyfriend. They were boyfriends for nine years or something like that.

Daniel Spencer [01:50:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] And his boyfriend stayed a believer the whole time. In fact, her. Ernie left Mark because Mark still believed nine years later, as an adult gay man living with another. You know what I mean?

Daniel Spencer [01:50:55] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:56] So I guess I'm just saying being gay and Mormon doesn't necessarily mean.

Daniel Spencer [01:50:59] Yeah, we've still got Charlie. Charlie Bird.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Charlie Bird and Charlie Bird, Ben Schlatti, and, like.

Daniel Spencer [01:51:06] Yeah, well, that's what I will say. Like, I. I think I am. Yeah. I definitely can't, like, be like. Like, lump it all together. I will just say that was my main motivation, I think.

John Dehlin [01:51:17] Okay. That was the trigger.

Daniel Spencer [01:51:19] Yeah, that was like, the trigger of just like, I'm done. That being said, it was interesting because. And this is why Ethan was so prominent. Ethan had done all of, like, the research. Like, Ethan was essentially my CES letter. He was the CES letter. He told me all of the CES letter. Basically. He was just like. We would sit around campfires. Cause we'd just do that at our house. We just had, like, little fires because we're bored. So we would sit around fires and we just laugh and talk about stuff, but it would always come back to the church. And he would, like, teach us all of these interesting, like, things. And so I think it was.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Give us five examples of, like, things you remember if you can. Does that put you in the spot.

Daniel Spencer [01:51:57] Sorry, sorry. I do need to.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [01:51:59] Five things. Okay. So five of the biggest ones. One, church history stuff. He went into Joseph Smith with all the young women. All the girls. Young girls, particularly. What's her name?

John Dehlin [01:52:14] Fanny Alger or Fanny Alger. Helen Mark Kimball, 14 year old girls.

Daniel Spencer [01:52:18] Fanny Alger. And went into, like, the accounts where Emma was like, kicking out Joseph from the house. And he was like, now I'm not gonna say, like we know for certain what she was kicking him out for, but it felt like stuff was going down. And so again, I can't like pinpoint, but one. Joseph Smith marrying younger girls. Brigham Young straight out the gate. Most of Brigham Young. Like, I was like, bad guy, bad person. Don't fuck with them, period. Ooh, ooh. What is it? The hieroglyphs, Book of Abraham. The whole Book of Abraham. I was like, what is happening? He showed me the Dead Sea Scrolls and, like, made the comparison.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] Papyrus, Egyptian papyrus.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:01] Hey, here's like the regular papyrus. Here's the stuff. And I was like, this. This is bad. And he was like, yeah, that's why the church is distancing themselves. And I was like, that's not true. That's a bad thing. Why are people not looking at this? I was like, how do I remember messaging my family and being like, do you guys know this? And they were like, daniel, don't show us anti Mormon stuff. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I can't have that conversation. But, like, it feels, like, important enough

John Dehlin [01:53:25] to know that was my first big issue.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:28] Yeah, that's a wild one.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] And the weird thing is there's gospel topics essays now, like you said, on your mission, that'll tell the whole story of the Book of Abraham. And then people like your parents maybe won't even read it.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:39] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Even though it's authored by the church now.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] Yeah, it's still.

Samantha Shelley [01:53:43] And it's like, he said he translated it.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] Yeah, he said that.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:46] That was a mind boggling one. Like, I was like, this is bad. Like, how do they not know this?

Samantha Shelley [01:53:52] Loving Ethan, by the way.

Daniel Spencer [01:53:53] Book of Moment, Book of Mormon. I always kind of like, again, my attachment to the Book of Moment is very distant. I'm trying to think of, oh, when he delved, Ethan delved into all of the wives, like plural marriage in general, polygamy, and just like, how bad it was. And I was like, this is a. Sorry. I also don't. I just said this whole thing about, like, Mormons, and I don't want to disrespect But I was like, this was a sex cult. Yeah, like, it was for sure a sex cult. And then he went into the history of how like Joseph would send off people on missions and would be like, take their wives. And suddenly I was like, it is insane that he had like, what was it, 14 wives in secret before Emma knew about all this.

John Dehlin [01:54:32] Over 20. Emma was like the 22nd wife married to Joseph.

Daniel Spencer [01:54:36] What?

John Dehlin [01:54:36] Even though DNC132 says. I'm just like, even though DNC132 says that the first wife needs to approve subsequent wives, Emma was like, 22nd.

Samantha Shelley [01:54:46] This amount of info from God about it, that's. And he doesn't stick to any of it.

Daniel Spencer [01:54:50] He told me about it and then I read the CES letter and I was like, this is wild. And then I'll just go back to the CES letter. Like the whole thing. Like, all of the points made in the CES letter were so prominent that I was just like, it's absolutely insane that they wouldn't like try to address the any of these points. And that people were so angry about stuff. Because that was the other thing. I did have bishops when I told them I was gay, that they were like, you're having a testimony problem. And I was like, I can't even imagine what it was like for the guy, what's his name, the guy who wrote the CES letter.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] Jeremy Reynolds.

Daniel Spencer [01:55:25] Yeah, Jeremy Reynolds. To go through what he went through and to have like actual historical points and be like, you can't answer anything. You are the ces, right? Yeah, you can't. You are part of the church education system. You can't answer anything. That must have been so frustrating and so wild because my stuff I feel like comes from an emotional place. Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] Gay.

Daniel Spencer [01:55:48] Why don't we, like take more of a stance on this? Why don't we do this stuff? But then the history, when you actually delve into it, it was funny because Ethan would bring in people. I had all these friends come in and we'd sit around and Ethan would just like teach us. And he like led a group of people away from the church. Like, my friends would come into the house and he'd be like, yeah, because he was very chill. Ethan, like, just like talks like this and he's like, how's it going? You're really cool. Hey, have you heard about like the CES letter? And these people did not know what was coming for them. I remember one girl had like a full on faith crisis in our basement and was like, the church isn't true. What is happening. And so, like, that was, like, prominent moments in our, like, in my life that, like, we're just, again, testimonies. But also watching people leave the church and be happier, I'd say is even the biggest one. That one's the best, is just watching people still be good and well off when they leave the church. And it's like, because that was one thing that I think a lot of people claimed for me. They were like, the reason that you're seeing success online is because you've left the church. So, Satan, when. When I was doing well on the online, when people thought I was a member, they were like, God's blessing you. And I was like, okay, but I'm not a. Like, a good member right now. I am terrible, actually. I'm not going to church. They didn't know that, but they were like, God's blessing you. As soon as I left the church, people were like, satan. It's Satan giving him all the power so he can undo all of the good that God's done. And it's like, no, you don't get to change the narrative. You don't get to tell me. The reason John Dehlin is so successful with his podcast is because Satan wants God to undo the church.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:26] I wish Satan would help me out.

Daniel Spencer [01:57:28] Yeah, but that's the other thing is, like, Satan isn't doing enough. I need some more help. Yeah, please. It's just so weird to me that, like, people get to change that narrative so frequently. So, you know, a lot of the historical stuff, but mainly just watching people be good and accept themselves and love themselves has been such a beautiful moment for me.

John Dehlin [01:57:48] Not want to die and not want to die.

Daniel Spencer [01:57:50] Oh, funny how that works.

Life After Mormonism and Future Goals

John Dehlin [01:57:52] Well, we've got, like, five minutes, and there's so much more I would want to talk to you about, but really quickly. What is your. What are your. What are your career ambitions? Like, what is your dream for your comedy? Do you have. Do you have some dreams?

Daniel Spencer [01:58:07] I do have some dreams.

John Dehlin [01:58:08] Go spend a minute or two in your dream.

Daniel Spencer [01:58:10] I have a lot of dreams. Okay, so one is I want to get big enough to make my own content in terms of I want to make movies and TV shows. I told you a little bit about the script that I wrote. I think it would be wonderful. It's called Less Actives. Wonderful. I have a superhero movie, like, plot line. It's all mapped out. I do a whole, like, spiel for it. It's wonderful. It's called Fatty Boom Boom and it's all about fat superheroes. Because fun fact about me, I just lost 60 pounds. I've lost 60 pounds since January. I was 300 pounds and I was like, oh, I need 310 pounds actually. I need to lose some weight and like high level.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] How'd you do it? If you want to show.

Daniel Spencer [01:58:54] Yeah, I just, honestly, I think I was, I was mapping out like a lot of like my macros and micro stuff and calories and stuff, but it was just like a lot of weightlifting with my friend, my roommate Peter. It's been great with that. He helped me like do a meal plan and then we ran. Recently, I've been like, less focused on that. I've just been like, I kind of like the weight that I'm at right now. I feel very healthy, feeling. Feel very like, good about myself. But I do think the next phase is to see how flat my stomach can get. I think that'd be so fun to just get a V going. Because I'm not necessarily motivated by like, I think I should look this particular way. I think it's just like healthy for me. I started hiking. My next stand up. We're talking about goals. My next stand up or lineup of stand up that I've started writing is all about my firsts. I'm planning out an hour for a special about all of the first that I've had because I was either in the closet, I was Mormon or I was fat. And all of those, like play a role in not experiencing the world for the first time. And so I talk about, like, what it's like to do yoga for the first time, what it's like to go on hikes for the first time, and what it's like to do like acid and mushrooms for the first time. Like stuff like that is so, like weird. But it's all things I'm experiencing at 28 years old that I feel like only a 28 year old Mormon guy can talk about. Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:19] Dude, you're gonna be Mormon. Hannah Gatsby.

Daniel Spencer [02:00:22] I hope so. That would be so fun. I love Hannah Gatsby. So, yeah, it's just been. It's.

John Dehlin [02:00:28] I think Netflix is gonna have a one hour special.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:32] Yeah, I don't see it not happening for you.

Daniel Spencer [02:00:35] It would be so exciting to have universe.

John Dehlin [02:00:37] Are we manifesting, Sam? Do we believe in manifesting?

Samantha Shelley [02:00:40] It's already done. You know, we're just on the timeline that on.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Okay.

Samantha Shelley [02:00:43] It's gonna happen.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] There will be a Daniel Spencer special Netflix special. Minimum, at least one. Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [02:00:52] And then final Goal. Retire to the forest with all the money I make from my Netflix special. And back in Zimbabwe. No, I think it'll probably be in Oregon.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] Oregon?

Daniel Spencer [02:01:01] Yeah, I love Oregon. That or I'll just go to the Caribbean. One of the two. I have to pick which one? I just love the forest so much though. So.

Closing Thoughts and Where to Find Daniel

John Dehlin [02:01:11] Okay, really quickly. This has been so amazing. I could spend another three hours but I have a meeting. But I feel bad about that. Plug everything you want to plug and then same. I'm going to be plug so get ready.

Daniel Spencer [02:01:23] Okay, cool. Follow Dan. Bam Bam. It's D A N B A N B A M on all social media. I am currently working, as I said, on all of my comedy specials and on all of my comedy shows if you want to come watch me. I'm mainly performing in Utah right now, so follow my social media for any updates on that.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Do you go to Wise Guys and perform?

Daniel Spencer [02:01:42] I do occasionally. I have not been performing at Wise Guys recently, but travel around the country

John Dehlin [02:01:48] and perform in clubs.

Daniel Spencer [02:01:48] I've been touring. That's my main thing. In clubs or in clubs? Yeah, I've been touring with another tiktoker named Ben Brainerd. So if I remember correctly, we're doing a set of shows, I think in Florida in November. If you happen to be in Florida, come check me out. I am also doing just a ton of writing and a ton of content creation. So watch my videos, subscribe to my YouTube channel. It's Daniel Spencer. And then I'm actually only just doing my Patreon this week, so my Patreon will probably be up by the time this comes out. So if you want to support me on Patreon, come through. We're creating content on BYU campus. We're creating content off BYU campus. I also have songs out on Spotify. So just look up dam Bam Bam on Spotify and watch me as I create a weird and wild comedy special that includes edm, rave culture and my Mormon roots. So that's all my plugs, Sam.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] And do you. Do you serve?

Daniel Spencer [02:02:43] Oh, I serve. I serve, baby.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:47] You do?

John Dehlin [02:02:47] And Sam, I'll ask you again, do you serve?

Samantha Shelley [02:02:49] I don't think I serve, but I get two drinks in me.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] Okay. All right. Plug away, Sam. Come on.

Samantha Shelley [02:02:57] It's so embarrassing to plug myself after Dan, but I'm on, well, Zelf on the shelf. We have YouTube. That's our primary platform. We're on Tick Tock, Twitter everywhere. On our Patreon. We are reading the sequels to Charlie, you know Charlie, the beloved Mormon movie And then I'm everywhere on social media at the samspo. I also do have some music on Spotify and would love to make more

John Dehlin [02:03:21] soon or under on spot.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:23] Samantha Shelley.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] Ey, Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] Okay. And your life. And you are.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:29] And I do faith transitions coaching. And my website is samanthshellecoaching.com and you

John Dehlin [02:03:34] help what types of people you know?

Samantha Shelley [02:03:37] Any type of people, really. But primarily people who are going through faith relationship transitions. People who want to navigate that with self love. You know, people who value autonomy over codependency, people who value living a joyful life that is built on their truest desires rather than kind of what we're taught we should want to do with our lives.

Daniel Spencer [02:04:03] It's kind of my ethos.

John Dehlin [02:04:05] And you value Stanley beverage containers.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:07] Yeah. And Diana Rivera gave me the Stanley cup, and it's changed my life, so thank you, Diana. I think about you every day as I drink out of it. Not every time, but once a day at least.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] All right, well, Samantha, thank you for making this happen. Samantha, I. I've had a busy couple months, but Samantha was like you, John. I will not stop, I will not rest bugging you. You will not find resting until we interview Daniel. And you were right. Daniel's lovely, brilliant, and someday's gonna be super famous. And we knew him when he already is. We knew him when.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:37] Yeah, we did.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] I mean, he is super famous. Who's got him 1.7 million.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:41] But also, we did a video with down on Zelf on the show. Yes.

Daniel Spencer [02:04:44] Oh, check that out.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:45] Yeah, I think I remember that. Okay, well, Daniel, you're lovely.

Daniel Spencer [02:04:50] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] You're brilliant. I'm so happy. You're. So many people lose a ton of weight after leaving Mormonism. It's like the post Mormon diet or something.

Daniel Spencer [02:04:58] Yeah. Like, it's a thing. You feel healthy afterwards, loving and accepting yourself. Looks like this. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:06] Well, good luck with everything. Thank you for being vulnerable and open and honest and brilliant. And I can't wait to follow your stuff and to see your Netflix special.

Daniel Spencer [02:05:14] Hey, thanks, John. And thank you for having me, guys. This is wonderful.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Yeah.

Daniel Spencer [02:05:17] I've been watching you guys for ages, so.

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Yeah, it's great. Thanks again, Sam.

Samantha Shelley [02:05:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] All right, everyone, thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Thanks to the Open Stories board, to the Mormon Story staff, everyone who makes all this possible. Mostly thank thanks to the donors that make Mormon Stories possible. We couldn't do without you if you are a supporter. Thank you. If you're not a donor, you can always go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and we'll keep creating this content and having amazing guests like today in perpetuity until the support dries up. So please support us if you can. Most importantly, be kind to each other, love each other, be good to each other, build bridges, try and be compassionate and empathetic. What the world needs is more empathy, less heat and more light if you can. And of course, if you want to. We just passed 70, 000 subscribers on YouTube for us is a big deal. But follow us on, you know, if you can, subscribe to us on Tick tock, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter even though we don't really do anything there. But if you have feedback emails@mormonstoriesmail.com comment on YouTube or on the Mormon Stories channel or on Facebook and share these episodes with whoever you think might value. I hope BYU students will watch this, especially LGBT BYU students, because they they deserve love and happiness and joy and they deserve to lose £80 as well.

Samantha Shelley [02:06:47] So if they want to.

John Dehlin [02:06:49] If they want to. And if they don't, then gain £80. Whatever works for you. Do whatever's healthy, right? All right, thanks everyone. Take care. Love you. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.