Introduction and Context for the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It's November 9, 2022, and we are here for what we think is a really important panel discussion. We are here to review a recent talk given by Brother Ahmad Corbett. The talk was given on October 4th during conference weekend, and it was a talk addressed to LDS Church military chaplains. The talk was entitled Activism Versus A Message for Chaplains of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But just this week, it was released to the general public, and it has caused quite a stir because in this talk, Brother Corbett basically attacks any sort of social justice activism that is directed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or its leaders. And so we are going to be playing most of that talk and we're going to be reacting to it. And we have a very distinguished panel with us today. Joining us returning to Mormon Stories podcast after a recent appearance is Chanel Achenbach. Hey, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:10] Hey, how you doing?

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Thanks for joining us.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:12] I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Did you get any feedback from your last appearance on Mormon Stories?

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:16] I did. I was shocked. There was actually some people from the mission I served in.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Where'd you serve?

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:22] Oklahoma. Tulsa Mission, and one of the areas was Springfield, Missouri. So with a few friends from there.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Oh, fun. Just tell us just in one minute, kind of your background with the church.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:31] So I joined when I was 18, 1990. Long, long time ago. Went on a mission from 93 to 95, was active.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Where'd you join? Where. Where were you?

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:42] San Antonio, Texas.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Oh, that's right. Okay. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:44] So I joined.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] Fellow Texan.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:45] Yep.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:46] I think you're from Katy.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] I'm from Katy, yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:48] I'm from San Antonio.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:49] So, yeah, I just joined the church and went on mission and I was active for a while, had children that were baptized in the church and did everything I thought was right at the time. And I decided that's not working.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] So when. When did the church stop working for you?

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:06] 2016. Well, stopped working a long time ago, but I thought I could make it work then. 2016, I was like, okay, I'm done. Okay, no more.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Well, we're really grateful you're able to join us today, and we hope to have you back.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:19] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Yeah. Also joining us today is the one, the only, Samantha Shelley of Zelf on the Shelf. Hey, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:26] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] You like long, pronounced introductions, don't you?

Samantha Shelley [00:02:31] No, John, that was an introduction you gave of your own free will, from your own brain.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] You didn't write the Script for me. Like on the recent Self on the Shelf skit.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:40] We recently roasted John for a self on the Shelf video. It's very funny.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Check that out. It's up on the show on YouTube.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:46] I want to see that.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Oh, yeah, that's good. Well, Samantha, we're glad. Glad you're here.

Samantha Shelley [00:02:50] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Yeah, our pleasure. And we're also super grateful to have in the studio Gerardo Sumano, who produced this episode. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:58] Hey. Hey, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] What made you so interested in this episode?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:04] I mean, when I listen, I don't. I can't remember where I saw it. Someone posted it. And then, you know, when I listened to it, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. The church news made a summarized version of it. And at first I was like, oh, yeah, this is bad. But I guess that's what the church does. And then I actually listened to the talk and I was like, yeah, we. We gotta cover it.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] So even though I'm only trying to do two episodes a week, Gerardo twisted my arm and here we are doing a third. Yes, but we're. We're glad to be here. Okay. All right, so we are live streaming because we really want to see participation and cooperation from our audience. So we're welcoming both our Facebook and our YouTube live streamed audience. And we would love to read your comments on the air and provide your feedback as well. I also want to reference the fact that the Brit vengers, I think, on 21st century saints are also doing a review of this episode, so please check them out as well. Chanel, before we begin, is there anything that you're doing online that people should kind of know about or follow? I just want to give you a chance to. To call out any good works that you're involved with.

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:15] Well, the only thing I do is that I'm addressing different things on Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Oh, you have a Tick Tock channel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:20] I have a Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Oh, what's your channel? I need that. What's your channel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:23] Bet Noir 4.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] So how do you spell that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:26] E, E, T, T, E. And the number four. So not the number sign, but just four.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Okay. All right. And we'll. We'll make sure to include a link to that in the show notes as well. All right, all right, all right. So before we actually dive into the substance of the talk, let's go ahead and. And learn a little bit about who this Ahmad S. Corbett gentleman is. Apparently, he was born August 16 6, 1962, in Philadelphia. He and his wife Jane have six children. He has a, he has a degree in sociology from Richard Stockton College of New Jersey and a law degree from Rutgers University School of Law. I'm pretty sure he's a convert to the church and I'm pretty sure he references that. Do you know anything else about his background prior to his leadership positions? Chanel?

Overview of Ahmad Corbitt's Talk

Chanel Achenbach [00:05:11] You know, not really. The only thing is that when he was given this talk, he referenced a point where he had a friend that reached out to him to address him on his membership and, and what she thought he should be doing within the church. And then he referenced it references some things that happened in his childhood in regards to her comments.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Okay, all right. Yeah, definitely, definitely a convert. And then, you know, it lists, kind of his profile lists his church service. He was a full time missionary in Puerto Rico, San Juan Mission. He's been a stake president and a president of the Dominican Republic Santo Domingo East Mission. His profession has been as a trial lawyer and as an executive director of corporate communications and associate general counsel of a Delaware company. I wonder why they don't list what that Delaware company was.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Be interesting. Maybe you guys can Google and figure that out. I'd be curious to know if it was a pharmaceutical company. Not, not to throw any shade on pharmaceutical companies. And he's a vice president and general counsel of a New York public relations firm. So he's a PR expert.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Yeah. So that's interesting. An attorney and a PR expert.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:26] Perfect.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] The church seems to love lawyers for church historian positions, for public relations positions, et cetera. I don't know what to make of that, but there it is.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:37] I do.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] What do you make of that, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:40] So the thing about lawyers is, I don't know if people understand. It has nothing to do with what's true. It has to do with what you can prove, and it has to do with who is better at their argument. I'm trying to convince you of something. I can convince you to eat dog food and tell you that it's better than meatloaf by my argument. And you're going to listen to me because I'm going to argue that point. And then you have another lawyer that's arguing against that point. And, and with pr, you are trying to. So they're, they're like movie directors. A movie director takes a script, takes actors and say, this is what I want you to see. A lawyer tells you what to see.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Yeah. That's interesting. Since all those corporate jobs, he's been a director or maybe during he was a director of the Church's New York Public affairs office. He currently works for the LDS Church's missionary department. So I'm guessing he's a full time employee at church headquarters and he was recently sustained as first counselor in the Young Men General Presidency just two years ago. And those are. That's kind of his corporate background. Now I want to just hit right off the front the optics of the choice of selecting Brother Corbett as the one to give this talk. So on the one hand, I think all of us would agree that the, the Church has, has historically, you know, had as its leadership too many white men from Utah and Idaho, not enough international representation, not enough representation of people of color. So on the one hand, we. I would think that we should all be celebrating the fact that as a spokesperson, the Church has chose a man of color and specifically an African American. That's kind of one. One level. It's like, yay, actually a person of color in the United States representing the Church. Maybe we should all congratulate that. But then on the other hand, there's this idea of number one, tokenization, which is, is something that always kind of runs at odds with representation. Right? Is tokenization. And then also the fact that he's about to be criticizing, you know, activism. And when we all think about activism, we think about civil rights and the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King. And so it's interesting that they choose an African American to speak out against a certain form of activism. And Chanel, I didn't even tell you that we'd be sort of addressing this specific topic, but I would love to hear if you have thoughts on that balance between representation, which we would support, and, and tokenization. How do we even navigate those two things?

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:26] You know, that is one of the things that upset me about this, especially because I got a lot of messages as saying there was a first black woman to speak in general conference that I understand the fact that, well, at least we're making progress because here they are. It depends on what they're talking about. For example, if back in the day you had slavery and you had several types of slaves, you had slaves that were like, we're being harmed. This is horrible. I don't like this. And then you had the Stevens from Django that were saying, we good. You know, we're eating food, be quiet. So if they're going to choose a black person and a black person's going to say it's okay what they're doing, I'm happy, it's great, that's dangerous. But if they have A black person saying, hey, there are some mistakes made there. You know, this is what they're doing now to make it better. That is a different type of situation. For example, on my mission, there was a lot of racist things happening. I have a beautiful journal that details all that. But what I did is I told. I was on a panel discussion on my mission to other church people out in the south, and I told them the church was great, the church. There's nothing racist about it yet. Missionaries were being pretty racist to me and so were the members. But I wanted to be accepted. I wanted. They chose me to speak for them. They chose me to speak for them. So of course I'm going to say whatever they want me to say.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] Right, right. Okay. So in. So I guess this choice of choosing an African American to decry activism maybe is problematic.

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:07] Extremely.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] For you, is it tokenization?

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Okay. Okay. Well, that, I mean, I don't feel like I can say that, but I feel more comfortable.

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:16] I can shout it. Not good.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Samantha, what do you think?

Samantha Shelley [00:11:21] I mean, I feel like they're co opting his blackness to serve a white supremacist organization. That's how it reads to me.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Does that sound harsh?

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:30] Chanel the wicked take the truth to be hard.

Samantha Shelley [00:11:35] I mean, what it is in the John Larsen episode, I mean, we went through the different amicus briefings that the church has filed with the Supreme Court. They are a white supremacist organization. Like the, the things that they support that, you know, the way that they said that monogamy is the way that things have always been for humans. And John Larsen talked about how you can only view that as vaguely true if you only look at the history of white people, which is obviously absurd. So I, I got very little patience for them ever since that episode.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Do you have thoughts on that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:09] I would just agree.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:10] Yeah, agree.

Representation and Race in the Church

John Dehlin [00:12:11] All right. All right. Well, the thing I never want to do is like, on the one hand, call for the church to act in certain ways and then criticize them when they do the very thing that we've asked them to do. But I think you.

Samantha Shelley [00:12:24] That's not what was happening here.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] I think.

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Okay. All right. All right. So let's go ahead and jump into the talk. And I, I, let's just say one last thing. He's given this talk to chaplains. Is that interesting? Is that relevant? Was that like, sometimes when the church gives its most important talks, it doesn't give it a general conference, it chooses. Like when Russell M. Nelson gave the talk, basically reaffirming that the November 2015 exclusion policy was doctrine. He didn't give that a general conference. Right. He gave it to byu, Hawaii. Byu, Hawaii. So what do we make of this tendency when a really important. Or when. Or when Russell M. Nelson told all the members to read the gospel topics essays and really learn them again? He gave it at some ballot. He gave it at some fireside. Not again at general conference. So what do we make of this tendency when the church is addressing really sensitive issues, to not do it at general conference, but instead to do it at some random tangential conference and then release it later? Anybody have anything to say about that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:29] Sure. I mean, I think part of it is to excuse himself when the heat comes. I. That wasn't done over the pulpit at General Conference, so we can't really say. So maybe like testing too. How did it happen? How did it go over? Give these people these cells to go out and then preach it and then can I. Did you hear me say that at General conference?

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:49] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:50] So if they need to take back and pull back, they can do that.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] It's like a trial balloon, but. Like a trial balloon.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:57] I would also think that the public affair, sorry, the media is not watching like they are. General conference. You know how when someone says something a little bit rogue, a packer saying something about gays, it would immediately come out on the media. You know, at least in Salt Lake that something was said that was controversial and seems like in this kind of talks the media is not paying attention as much. So. Yeah, the backlash won't be as harsh.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Yeah. Anything you want to add, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:14:29] Well, it's interesting that this is so chaplains, they're considered part of the military either way. They're.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] Yeah, they are. They're.

Samantha Shelley [00:14:36] I just think that's interesting as well, because I feel like the US Military has issues with white supremacy and it's, it's discouraging activism kind of generally in all these ways. And that just feels a little bit relevant.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Okay. Well, now that we've given some background, let's go and jump into the talk. And right off the top, we're not going to play the entire talk. We're going to play excerpts from the talk. And right off the bat we. We have him talking about the pre existence, which for me was particularly triggering. So let's go ahead and jump to the first excerpt.

Ahmad Corbitt [00:15:19] Imagine a battalion of valiant spirits in the premortal world. Their hearts are brim with the love of God, their father. They trust him and his plan for his Children, the countenances of their spirit faces radiate the resplendent light of Jesus Christ who smiles upon them. They bask in the brilliance of God's attributes and principles, including love, truth, obedience, faith, loyalty, mercy, fairness and equity. In the war in heaven, they actively follow our great advocate with the Father to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of their brothers and sisters and themselves. These noble and great spirit sons and daughters of God are destined to similar godly purpose and power in this world. Ultimately, they overcome Satan who is cast down to earth and his angels are cast down with him. Now think of these same spirits as today's youth and young adults in the Church of Jesus Christ Christ of Latter Day Saints. In that continued war, a veil of forgetfulness over their minds, they perhaps only faintly feel their purpose and too often doubt their great capacity to carry it out.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] So I, I don't know if any of you felt triggered by an African American member talking about the pre existence and people's countenances, but Chanel, you're already nodding your head, so I'm going to let you go first on this one.

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:53] Sure about that? I am trying so hard not to be a jerk. I am livid because you have to think about an 18 year old kid I joined at 18. I was told it was probably two months after I was a member. I went to a member's home for a big luncheon thing they were having. And that's when I first heard it wasn't for missionaries from members about the pre existence and black people and how we were not valiant. So how is he talking about valiant spirit when he was one of those that was told that was not valiant. So how dare he speak on this? It, it makes no sense to me. Black people were not valiant. In fact, we were worse than the third because we didn't choose at all. We wanted to come down. Yeah, fence sitters, that's the word they use. Vagabonds. And I was like, wait, what? Lukewarm? And I was like, wait, I did that? They're like, yeah, but it's okay because now you're here to prove yourself and then you'll, you know, you got your body and all these things will happen and, and you'll be great. And I'm like, oh, well, I can't argue with truth. Right? I don't like it, but I trust them.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] Yeah. So you did have that immediate reaction when you heard him invoke the pre existence?

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:02] Yeah, I was like, what are you, what are you saying? No Remember, you were one of those less value. You shouldn't be speaking on this.

John Dehlin [00:18:08] And of course for those who aren't Mormon and don't know the history, one of our general authorities, Bruce Armaconkey, published a book called Mormon doctrine in the 60s where he basically said that black people have dark skin because they were less value in their pre existence. And so like Samantha, tell me if you go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:25] Well, more than just Bruce, Elma Conky said that. Right. It was taught for generations by prophets, apostles, everyone. It was like the mainstream doctrine. If you opposed it, you're opposing church leaders. The very thing that he's talking about in this talk.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:37] So good.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:18:38] This is just like if irony was a talk. It's this, this whole thing.

Ahmad Corbitt [00:18:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:41] My. I would point out people to Matt Harris episode of Mormon Stories. Like he confirms that this was generalized doctrine across the church. Everyone under. He literally uses the phrase everyone under dog in the church and church leaders knew that black people were fence sitters on the pre existence. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] And so in my mind and Samantha, I was going to say you've got some PR experience. Like if I'm in the correlation committee and I'm reviewing this talk, I'm like ignay on the pre existence a reference. Nay, you know, like isn't that just PR 101. If, if we're going to have a African American decrying activism when we know that the Mormon church literally opposed the civil rights movement, let's not have him referencing the pre existence.

Samantha Shelley [00:19:28] Well, not if your target audience is people who don't know that it was taught for generations and generations as doctrine that black people were fence sitters in the pre existence. You know, it's just, it's classic 1984 tactics. Right. We're just, we're just whitewashing it. We're just moving on. We're, we've, we're getting new SEO going for pre existence. I, I don't know that it's necessary. Bad pr. It's probably good pr.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:54] And let's not forget how quickly members of the church can just forget about these things. Right. Like we posted the video from Brinley talking about her going on her mission on our Facebook page and not going through the temple until she was on three months in her mission. And, and you have dozens of members of the church saying, well that's impossible. She's lying because missionaries have to go through the temple before they go on their missions. Did you forget that the temples closed during COVID or Maven has talked about when we posted the clip of her talking about women covering their faces in the temple and members of the church saying, no, that doesn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] We don't veil. People don't veil their faces.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:43] That literally just changed in 2019.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Yeah, just a few years ago. Yeah. And, yeah, our memory is short.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] Yeah, for sure. It's true. Speaking of short memories, RFM has joined us in the chat, and RFM makes the really good point. He says, I think it was Brother Corbett who had to bat cleanup when Brad Wilcox was caught off base making racist remarks earlier this year. I'd forgotten about that. I remembered seeing Corbett earlier, but thanks, rfm, for reminding us that, like, Corbett rose to stardom by trying to clean up Brad Wilcox racist mess.

Samantha Shelley [00:21:16] How did he clean it up?

John Dehlin [00:21:18] He did, like, a little PR statement, didn't he? Do you remember? Do you remember, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:21:22] He did a PR statement. He just basically was doing what he's doing now. He's trying to explain away, well, you know, the reason why he said this, or this is why this is done, or this is why that is done. And I remember just listening to a clip of. I saw it on TikTok, and some people were posting it, and TikTok was trying to take it down, and it was.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] It was Wilcox, Corbett and Apostle. Right. Wasn't. Wasn't there.

Chanel Achenbach [00:21:44] I don't remember who the. The third person was. I just remember seeing him because they were like, see, Chanel, the black man said this, this, this, and that. And I was like, what black man?

John Dehlin [00:21:55] Maybe our audience can.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:56] It was. It was just Wilcox and Corbett. So Wilcox was scheduled to speak before, you know, his talk went viral. Yeah, and it was already scheduled. He still showed up, gave his little apology at the beginning, and then had Corbett take over. And Corbett ended up giving the. The talk for that day.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] So who's going to clean up Corbett's mess if Corbus the cleanup guy, won't be me?

Samantha Shelley [00:22:23] We're cleaning up here. Today.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Mormon Stories is cleaning up Corbett's mess. Okay. All right. Well, Corbett goes on to talk about activism as Satan's best tactic. So let's listen to his next point.

Corbitt Claims Activism Is Satan's Tool

Ahmad Corbitt [00:22:38] Today I would like to address an especially effective tactic Satan is using to blind and mislead the young, those transitioning from other religious traditions and cultures, and even longtime and lifetime members of the Lord's restored church. In my humble view, it is one of the great mists of the darkness of our time. I speak of our enemy's effort to transform disciples of Jesus Christ into activists towards or against the Lord's church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and its leaders.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Okay, so really quickly, like, I want to be fair to. To Brother Corbett in that he basically says activism's fine when it's for a good cause directed at the government. So he's not decrying all activism. And so knowing that he would have been the benefit. We all have been the beneficiaries of activism regarding civil rights. It would be unfair to paint him as saying activism's bad. He's saying that it's bad against the church, and we'll get into that later. But the point I want to make is he's likening. He's basically saying that activism against the church is a tool of Satan. So, not that it's, you know, potentially harmful. Not that it's potentially problematic if used inappropriately. He's invoking, literally Satan, the prince of darkness, the ruler of all evil. And he's likening, basically, Gerardo and me and Samantha and, you know, take your pick, John Larsen, like Lindsay Henson Park. He's basically saying that we're all tools of Satan. Chanel, what do you think about that comparison or that invoking Satan?

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:30] I think it's unfair. And I think, well, he's smart. He. He's a lawyer. He's a PR person. That is what will scare members into not listening to you or anybody else. It will tell them, do not think. You just react. If you hear ATC react. If you hear activism, react. And reacting is knowing that it's from Satan, that Satan is. It's Satan's fault. And we know who Satan is. So if we know who Satan is, we know what he can do. Is Satan that more powerful than God is My confusion. He has that much power to just make everybody just do these horrible things. Do we not have free agency?

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Yeah, that theological problem is significant. Why does Satan have so much power? If God's plan is so precious, why did he create a plan where Satan is so powerful and influential? Samantha, let's get you in on this.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:17] Well, I don't know. I think you're giving him too much credit with. Because of course he's going to have to say, yeah, activism's not always bad, because it would be just truly unfathomable to hear someone say activism is bad. But the church has opposed every effort for social change at the government level, so it's not like we can give them any credit for that.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] So they opposed the civil rights movement called Martin Luther King Jr. A communist.

Samantha Shelley [00:25:40] Yeah. And then he had the nerve to reference Martin Luther King in this talk. And it's like you were opposing that guy, like, when this was all going down. And now you just use. You co opt his words for your white supremacist organization's gain.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Chanel, you're nodding your head.

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:53] Oh, man, that made me so mad. I'm like, you cannot do that. You cannot know that your leaders have it in writing what they thought about Martin Luther King or anybody, peacefully or with their fists, fighting against racism and fighting for their civil rights. And now you want to use Martin Luther King. Like you said he was a communist. Yeah, don't talk about him. Don't bring him up.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:26:22] And it's also telling that the talk is about how activism is the most evil thing in the world. Not homophobia, not racism, not sexism. It's always the. They're always on the side of the oppressor in the church, aren't they? It's the activists. They're the problem. Not the people that are, you know, not living with the love of Christ in their hearts, but the activists trying to make political or social change. They're the problem.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] And I want to bring Gerardo in on this. But. But literally, the church fights the civil rights movement. They're, you know, 10, 15 years late to the game. They fight the era. The Mormon Church was literally central to the. To defeating the Equal Rights Amendment that just said women and men should be treated equally. And they've been the most active opponents to same sex marriage and LGBTQ rights in the United States. I think it's. It's fair to say, like, what activism are they actually okay with? Because if he's going to say activism's fine, why is it that the Mormon Church has a multi decade, if not a century long record of opposing all the good activism that we've seen. Gerardo, let's get you in.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:29] I think it's interesting that of all the words or terms that he could choose to phrase what he's trying to say, because I feel like it is the first time I've heard the word activism in recent years being used in a church context. And, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement, with gay rights, abortion rights, and all the activism that's going on right now is really interesting that that's the word that he chose to use and painted in a satanic, you know, picture. Knowing that the vast majority of members in the United States are politically conservative and are already against movements like the Black Lives Matter movement and against, you know, activism pro abortion and activism. Pro gay rights. So the word activism already in the, in the minds of most members is going to have a negative connotation.

Samantha Shelley [00:28:30] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:31] So he's just using that and you know, reinforcing it and applying it into a church context.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Yeah, because how can this not taint the members view of all activism? Because as soon as you associate activism with Satan, even if it's government targeted activism, that association has still been made. Is that fair to say?

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:51] It's fair to say. And I don't think people realize this, John, but do you know who the apostle Delbert Staple is?

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Yeah, absolutely.

Chanel Achenbach [00:29:00] Okay, so you've seen that letter.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Go ahead and talk about it.

Chanel Achenbach [00:29:02] Yeah, he sent a letter to Governor Romney.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] This is Mitt Romney's dad, Mitt Romney, Governor of Michigan. Yes. Who was pro civil rights movement.

The Letter and Satan's Supposed Three-Step Plan

Chanel Achenbach [00:29:11] He. This letter is so vile. Yeah, he threatened him basically saying, hey, let me tell you a little story. So a person died by drowning. You might have that same kind of fate if you don't stop with the civil rights. But I'm just saying this, and by the way, this isn't from the first presidency, but I just think you should know, threatened the men for participating in civil rights.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] And Staple was an apostle.

Chanel Achenbach [00:29:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] At the time.

Ahmad Corbitt [00:29:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, it's problematic in so many ways because the church has opposed so many things, so many important activist movements, and it's making further negative associations. Okay, well let's go ahead and go on to him enumerating three steps on Satan's genius maneuver. Let's hear what the, what the steps are. Oh, oh, wait, there we go. Okay. Oh, let me click.

Ahmad Corbitt [00:30:17] Is a three step maneuver that is genius in its simplicity and effectiveness. First, focus the rising generation and the valiant generally away from the doctrine of Christ and onto real or imagined unfairness or injustice in the Lord's church and the imperfections of its leaders. Second, use this shift in focus to stir up feelings of disillusionment, annoyance, resentment, anger and hatred toward church policies, declarations, proclamations, principles, doctrines, and eventually leaders. Third, manipulate these negative impulses to instigate the use of worldly or secular activism or advocacy rather than the doctrine of Christ to effect change in the kingdom of God. You may be thinking these tactics seem to match and leverage the very feelings of equity, justice and love, sense of gathering mission inherent in the souls of the premortal valiant. You are wise to think so.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Okay, so let's, let's hit, hit each one individually. So focus the rising generation onto real or Imagined unfairness or injustice in the church and the imperfections of its leaders. So is it fair game to say that the church has injustices and that its leaders are imperfect and to call out the church leaders when they are? And why does he use the word imagined, by the way?

Samantha Shelley [00:31:56] Just so we can blanket real or imagined. Then he doesn't have to reckon with the individual issues.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Yeah, like basically, he's basically saying to me, he's saying the church hasn't really harmed. Hasn't really harmed vulnerable minorities over the years and the leaders, you know, shouldn't be criticized.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:17] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:32:18] Even if it's real. Because he says real or imagine. That's what's so interesting is like Satan will use real, like things that probably should change in the church as a tool.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] And that's what's so problematic for me is that, is that what has caused the church to change. Like, this is going to be the central theme that we're going to talk about over and over again. Did the church change its view on, on blacks in the priesthood because of some nebulous doctrine of Christ? Chanel, what's your understanding of what led the church to change? It's, it's reverse. It's, it's discrimination against black people.

Chanel Achenbach [00:32:54] You know, so looking online in Google, it's not that easy to find. But you have members that write books. Jesse Embry wrote a book called Black Saints in a White Church. And that member loves the church. So I trusted that book. I didn't want anything anti. I just wanted information and explains. I brought the book, but explains that NAACP was giving them a hard time. And there are some tax status things that were happening because back then, any church that was part of segregation wasn't getting their tax status honored. So that was why.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you go back to the history in the 60s and 70s, universities like the University of Wyoming. Right. And Stanford University and others were basically starting to protest the Mormon Church. And they would wear black wristbands during basketball games or threaten to not play in football games. And this was causing national embarrassment to the church. You know, not to mention all the other ways that the church has been called out over the years. And that, that along with, you know, with, with other scholars writing articles. There was the article in 1973 in Dialogue magazine where, where the, the, you know, the audience of Dialogue magazine were reminded that, that black people actually had the priesthood before it was taken away. And it was these sort of, these sort of efforts that embarrass the church sufficiently to cause them to Make a change. We all know that. That many of the changes that the church has made favorable to women were a result of the ordain women movement in the aftermath. And of course, the church is. Gerardo. Dramatically changed its approach to LGBTQ individuals. Why? Because of all the, you know, all the different ways that people have risen up to denounce the church's stance on LGBT people.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:59] Yeah. Yeah. So that's what changes the church is activism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:02] Mormon temple ceremony, you know, and.

John Dehlin [00:35:07] Yeah, the God makers. Yeah. So evangelical Christians start calling out the cultish of the Mormon temple ceremony in the early 80s. Voila. The church changes the temple ceremony. So what changes the church? I ask you, Samantha, what changes the church more than activism against the church's unjust policies and criticism of its leaders? Does anything else change the church?

Samantha Shelley [00:35:29] Doesn't seem like it.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Yeah, yeah, that is. It's. It's. It's grassroots revelation. Right. It bubbles up.

Samantha Shelley [00:35:37] Yeah, yeah, sorry. Just a lot of thoughts, and I just think it's interesting that he's saying that activism is taking people away from the doctrine of Christ, because I'm like, what's the doctrine of Christ in your mind? Right. Genuinely, I would like to know what his answer was. But it's like, number one, there is no church doctrine that has never changed since the church was founded. We know that. But if you're gonna take what I imagine to be the general gist of the doctrine of Christ, you think of, like, love and sticking up for the marginalized. Yeah. It's hard to imagine the doctrine of Christ being at odds with standing up for the marginalized, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Yeah, absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:14] It seems like in a Stop.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] Thought stopping.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:18] Yeah, yeah. Thought stopping concept, you know, because most members will answer, well, the doctrine of Christ according to the Book of Mormon is faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost and drink to the end. That's. That's what the Book of Mormon says, the doctrine of Christ. But how is that going to change the injustices in the church? That there's no way someone getting baptized is going to change, you know, the church from removing certain language in the temple that makes women uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] And so, yeah, those are. That's a great example of other changes. The church's change on, you know, women covenanting with their. To hearken unto their husbands or to wear veils over their face. That directly came about as a result of the ordained women and the ordained women movement and the feminists that spoke out.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:09] How about the church giving almost a parent, supposedly almost $1 billion in charity last year.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] That's in result to the activism in response to the revealing of the 100 million, the Ensign Peak investments. Cabo says it really well, he says Jesus was an activist. And I think that's. That's a great, great summary, Cabo.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:35] I mean, allegedly, according to the people who.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] Well, now you're doing it. Now you're undermining faith in Christ. So you're falling right in the corporate.

Samantha Shelley [00:37:43] I always do this.

Activists Accused of Stirring Up Feelings

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Okay, well, let's go on to the next point, which is to stir up feel, where he's basically saying activists stir up feelings of disillusionment, annoyance, resentment, anger and hatred towards church policies, declarations, proclamations, principles, doctrines, and eventually leaders. So I want to, you know, let's. Chanel and Gerardo, you two are members of communities that have been discriminated against. And you are too, Samantha, as a woman, Right, Sure. Like, are activists just stirring up your feelings of resentment? Would you normally be super happy with the church and its policies and practices if it weren't for activists that are just causing you to have your feelings stirred up? What's your reaction to that, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:38:29] Activism has nothing to do with their behavior, has nothing to do with.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] With your feelings. What are the. What are the origins of your feelings? Is it activists?

Chanel Achenbach [00:38:41] The origins of my feelings is seeing bad things happen and trying to talk to my leaders about what's happening so that can be resolution, so that I'm not being harmed and not just me, so other people aren't being harmed and being told, shh. Spirit of contentions, of the devil, and in the afterlife, this will be solved. Be quiet or I'll take your temple recommend.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Yeah. So when you tried. So when you were an active, faithful member and you experienced racism, did you even feel comfortable that you had a place you could go to register complaints? And if so, did you ever do that? And if so, how was it received? Like, how. How good is the church at receiving feedback?

Chanel Achenbach [00:39:21] You just heard him. He said, don't do it. Yeah, you cannot criticize, because any question is criticism. All I said was, hey, I have a question. I'm 18. Then. I was 19. And things kept happening. And I was like, okay, why are these things happening? I'm trying to do. Let me tell you about me as a member. Ask my family. They're not members. But when I joined the church, they said, make no mistakes. I went in my room, I put on a long dress. All I did was read my scriptures. I stopped watching tv, stop hanging out with friends, stop listening to anything, and Then they said, well, that's still not good enough because of your skin. And I'm like, wait, what? So then I tried to talk to him. I'm like, but I don't remember the pre existence. I don't remember doing these bad things. I don't. I don't want to be punished. I want to be good. You know, like, what do I need to do? And so when I tried to talk to him, stop that spirit of contention, Sister. Stop that. If you keep going, that's apostate. We will take your temple recommend. So I just shut up, right?

John Dehlin [00:40:17] Yeah. Yeah. And Oaks is on record as saying. Elder Oaks is on record as saying it's wrong to criticize the church leaders, even if the criticism is accurate.

Chanel Achenbach [00:40:25] Oh, correct.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Yeah. And if you send letters to church, Church headquarters, they send them back to your bishop and stake president and let them know that you've written the letters. And so in another way, that's a way to punish you. Gerardo, are your feelings of activism rooted in activists just stirring up, you know, feelings of contention, or do they come from a different place? Where do your feelings of activism come from?

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:52] For, for me, I think it's hard. I think it's part of my life experience. But I also know, because I, you know, people that know my story know that I was able to. Before going on my mission, I was able to date guys. And I knew what it would. What it really felt to fall in love with a guy and stuff like that. I, you know, and so I always felt like it was an injustice for the church not to allow gay people to have same sex relationships. But also, I know plenty of gay people who have always followed, you know, the church's standards who would say, oh, you know, who just comply. And unless. And I don't know, like, if someone helps them to see, you know, why this is an injustice, or if they're able to have the experience of it and realizing why they were being oppressed. I don't know what they would think after, you know, so it's. It's hard to say if it's active. I think it's different from every. For every person. If it's like someone showing you and telling you, hey, you know, this organization that you're part of, they're oppressing you, or you kind of realizing it's just different for everybody. I think that just because someone realizes it by. By themselves or not, that doesn't mean that activists are not important.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Right. That's a good point. And. And just to really drive the Stake home in this point when you, you know, you could have just left the church and lived a happy life with Zach, but you decided to come out and help with the Open Stories Foundation, Was that because I or others had stirred you up to being, you know, angry or upset, or did you have your own motivation?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:43] No, of course I had my own.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] What were they?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:45] Yeah, is like, like realizing that what I was taught was not true and realizing for myself that the position that the church was putting me in, all the anxiety, all the, you know, thoughts of feeling worthless or less worthy or whatever were not true, were not real. And realizing that wanting to help others was what made me want to speak out.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] What about seeing. Seeing how the church is affecting other people besides yourself? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:17] And that. That too, of course.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was no part of it was noticing, like the. One of the reasons I did my TED Talk and my research was seeing all the LGBT suicides mounting up after Prop 8. And I'm just saying this is really harming people.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] Samantha, how about you?

Samantha Shelley [00:43:35] Well, I think it's a really bad characterization saying, you know, activists are just stirring people up. And that's terrible because it is necessary for, like, in order for positive social change to happen, activists do have to reach people on an emotional level because it's empathy that changes the world. So he's demonizing, you know, empathy and also anger. Like, it's very like normal and healthy to feel anger when you see people being treated unfairly or people being harmed unnecessarily by systems. So just to chalk it all up to, like, oh, it's just activists stirring people up is a. Is a really, really bad faith interpretation. And then on top of that, it's ironic because he's like, accusing activists of, you know, essentially like, co opting people's emotions for their gain. And obviously he's not talking about what, what that gain is, which, like most of the time is social change that drives us closer to equality and like a fairer, more empathetic society. But it's like this whole talk is him co opting people's emotions and get stirring up fear in people for his personal gain or, you know, for his organization's gain. So it's like you're telling everyone that anyone making efforts to make the world a fairer, better place is coming from a nefarious place or, you know, is like co opting emotions. But it's like, what are you doing by telling people that all those efforts are from Satan?

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Yeah. Yeah, that's good. The final point that he makes is that. That we instigate. The activists instigate the use of secular activism rather than the doctrine of Christ to affect change. And he's going to talk about what he means by that. But I think we've all been asking that. What. What is it about the doctrines of Christ as taught by the Mormon Church that leads to positive social progress within the church?

Ahmad Corbitt [00:45:27] Right.

Samantha Shelley [00:45:28] And also define it, you coward. Because it's easy to say the doctrine of Christ will change things. And it's like. Well, it didn't until the activists started getting involved and then you got the revelations you needed.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Yeah, I think he does try and define it a little bit later in the talk. Let's hear it. All right. Okay. So let's. Let's hear a little bit more about activism towards the church.

Panel Responds to Political Activism Claims

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:49] This one is a long one, so if you want to pause it at some point.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] Okay.

Ahmad Corbitt [00:45:55] Oh, it changed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:56] Switched slides.

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:59] Why is he smiling?

Ahmad Corbitt [00:46:02] What do I mean by activism toward the church? Activism has been defined as the policy or action of using, campaigning or vigorous campaigning to bring about political or social change, especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue. Thus, activism or advocacy directed toward or against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a secular, worldly device misapplied in a spiritual, otherworldly context. To be sure, change is needed in our church. For example, members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have spoken out against prejudice in any form. The Savior organized his church in large part to effect change of many kinds in God's children. But change in the Kingdom of God is not accomplished in the same way as change in, say, government. The faulty assumption is that because some of the same social ills in secular society occasionally rear their ugly head heads in the Lord's Church, the same remedial methods and manners should be used in both contexts. Is Brother Corbett saying activism and advocacy are bad? Not at all. Like all Americans and arguably most people on Earth, you and I and our families are beneficiaries of activism. The United States was founded on and through activism and advocacy by activists. The Boston Tea Party, the formation of the Continental Congress, and the Revolutionary War were all forms of activism, and we have an angelic validation of that. The United States Constitution's Bill of Rights specifically permits activism and prohibits government from abridging forms of it, such as the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances. When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another is the solemn preamble of one of the most activist yet revered and celebrated documentaries ever conceived by humankind, the Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This was an activist statement and a noble and courageous one. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Famously quoted many of these venerated words as he led the activist movement for justice and equality for black Americans. Calling on America to live up to its founding creeds, he advocated for the just and universal application of these same constitutional principles. You and I are, of course, also beneficiaries of this activism as well, since the Lord inspired the United States Constitution for the rights and protection of all flesh. However, when activism or advocacy is directed at the kingdom of God on earth or its leaders, especially prophets and apostles, it is the wrong tool for the wrong job in the wrong place.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Chanel, are you feeling. Are you feeling some feelings?

Chanel Achenbach [00:49:55] What he's doing is wrong. He is not telling the truth so that members can know what's happening, so that they can react properly. He is saying that, first of all, he used a word. He said, prejudice. Prejudice, racism and white supremacy are not the same. Prejudice is a soft way of saying people are being mean. Racism and white supremacy is a lot more than that. And for him to say that, you know, unifying.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] And he basically said, apostles have spoken out against prejudice.

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:33] Yes, spoken. Speaking out against being mean is fine, but when. So to tell your members not to be mean is fine, but to. How do you speak out against racism? You teach what it is, and then you teach what not to do. They won't address it. They won't touch it. They just say, we speak out against it. But what have you actively doing to say, hey, John, this is racism. This what it looks like in our past. We have made huge mistakes, but you know what? Please forgive us. This is what we're doing to make it better so that people like Chanel and her children are not treated bad by members that they love, that they're not. That they're not marked like John. They don't understand because it didn't happen to him. Maybe it didn't happen to John. Okay, that's fine. It has nothing to do with my experience. It has nothing to do with my children. I put my children in that church. I put them in that church because I thought it was better. And I let Them and told them to take it because in the afterlife, it'll be fine. This is your trial. Mom chose this trial. You chose a trial. You have to deal with it. Buck up. You can do this. Endure to the end. I told my black children over and over when people were dating in the church and going to dances. Nobody chose my children because they were being told by their church leaders to not mix. So what am I supposed to tell my kids? Well, you want to tell me when I was dating the church? You need to go find a black man. Go find a black man, convert him, and bring him in the church. Okay, how do I do that? I don't know, but go find one. That's not right. That's. That's not. And I want to say one thing. I don't want to take away time, but it's so members can understand. It hasn't changed. It's just silence. When you're in Texas, the most important thing is, is when you get invited to a swimming party, you want to go. Who have. Whoever has a swimming pool, you want to go to that party. But the church is like that. You go to this party and you're told you have to eat cake and ice cream. You have to. Not. Not only do you want to. You want to, but you have to. So you're swimming with these kids. You get out of the water. You go up to get your cake and ice cream. The mom is giving cake and ice cream to everybody. You get up there, and you're like, I want my cake and ice cream. And the mom says, no. And you're like, why? You said, I have to have it, and I want it. Well, no, you have a green shirt. Everybody else here has a red shirt. Well, I was given this green shirt. I can't do anything about my race. But too bad. But you can't have this cake and ice cream. We told you you have to have. But you. And you want it, but you can't have it. That's what they told me about celestial kingdom and marriage and so forth. I cannot have it, even though I want it and I should have it. That's what they did.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] So, Chanel, you're saying that. That the church has not done enough not only to decry, you know, prejudice, but to decry racism and white supremacy.

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:40] Absolutely. They won't touch it.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] Yeah. Yeah. And then I also was just shocked by the fact that in. That instead of acknowledging some of the most heinous, most racist words I've ever read come from Brigham Young's pen come from subsequent prophets and apostles pens all the way through to the 1960s and beyond. And yet this is an opportunity for him to say, hey, even we have gotten it wrong in the past and we've said super racist and awful things. But instead of taking any accountability and acknowledging our super racist past, he instead whitewashes it and says, hey, church leaders have spoken out against prejudice as if they have a clean slate. Did you, did you notice that, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:54:25] I noticed that, and that's what brought me to tears, is that it's not true. Because, John, I don't know if you guys understand. It's not just Brigham Young. It is also Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:54:34] It is also J. Reuben Clark. It's Albert Smith. All of them. They signed a letter and said, the Negro's this, the Negro's that.

Samantha Shelley [00:54:43] And.

Chanel Achenbach [00:54:43] And they sent a letter to Lowry.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:54:46] Nelson Lowry.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] Yeah. Yeah. So several first presidencies signed statements affirming the ban on. On black Mormons. Yeah. So no atonement there. Did you, did you have anything to add to that, Samantha?

Samantha Shelley [00:54:59] No, I, But I do always think about how if you were in the church for the majority of its history, when racism was being taught as doctrine, if you opposed leaders, which for. For that, which again, is what he's speaking out about in this talk, you would get excommunicated from the church. So it's like God restored a church that demands people accept racism to stay in. So then, like, what's. What was the point? What was it like? He's just going to keep his most, like, I mean, that is fence sitting, surely. Like, just like passively complying with racism because of, you know, I mean, like,

John Dehlin [00:55:34] who are the real fence sitters?

Samantha Shelley [00:55:35] Yeah, exactly. Like this made up something you've come up, or, you know, the people that are keeping their membership because they comply with racist ideologies.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [00:55:43] So I just, as much as they want to be like, oh, leaders are imperfect. It's like, it still was true that you would be excommunicated if you spoke out against that racism. So then that says that what, God's just like, not too bothered about racism. It doesn't make you unfit for the kingdom. Or it's just like acceptable collateral damage for his white supremacist church. Like, what's the deal? Or God is racist? Like, which one of those is it? None of them is good.

Gerardo Sumano [00:56:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Samantha, as someone not from the United States, what did you think about him speaking about the Declaration of Independence in the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, as being like, next, you Know, equivalent to scripture and sacred.

Samantha Shelley [00:56:23] Well, it's ridiculous. Like, obviously I understand that. I don't know. Just like, the romanticization of those documents is so unnecessary. And as someone who's not received any of that conditioning is just so strange to me because I'm like, you can accept, like, that there were some good things that maybe America's founding fathers were trying to do, but it's also like to. To put these documents on a pedestal at a time when, you know, women and black people were not equal under the law. It just feels absurd. It's like, again, it's just feels like you're saying that that's acceptable collateral damage for the good things that these documents are trying to do. And it's like, since when are entire massive percentages of human beings, like, acceptable collateral damage for that? You know? So it's like, just talk about the specific principle and maybe put that on a pedestal that you're trying to talk, but to just like, romanticize the documents as a whole just feel so strange and unnecessary.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Yeah, I, I was a political science major. I worked on Capitol Hill, you know, when I was at byu. And there's, There's a lot that I love about the United States of America. I'm not anti American at all. But do any of us remember how black people were counted in the u. S. Constitution?

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] You want to tell us?

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:41] Three fifths. I mean, it's.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] They were three fifths of a person. Right. That.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:46] That's insane.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] And that's. That's a document he's calling inspired by God.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:50] That is what I'm talking about. I, I can't deal with him. I just cannot. He's not being honest.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Yeah. Like, you can't call those documents inspired by God when they're counting black people as three fifths of a person. They're problematic. You know, they have good things in them. But he's also virtue signaling to kind of Christian nationalism. I've been following Christian nationalism as of, you know, the past few years. New York times has been covering it, and it's becoming a real problem. Right. Just, just evangelical Christian churches equating a certain political party with. With kind of God and Jesus and a person. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Not to get too political.

Samantha Shelley [00:58:32] Yeah. Just again, saying that those documents are inspired by God despite the racism is just. Again, saying that racism is acceptable collateral damage for God, which is racist.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:45] It's interesting that he's having a hard, A hard time separating. Why is activism. Okay. When it's towards, you know, an Inspired document that was inspired by God, but not towards a church that's inspired by God. And he's having a really hard time, you know, separating it and saying, okay, it's fine for the Constitution, even though it was inspired, but not for the church that's inspired. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then, and then, Chanel, you've already mentioned this, but like mentioning Martin Luther King Jr. But not mentioning that our church literally denounced Martin Luther King Jr. For over a decade. You know, including prophet seers and revelators.

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] What was that like for you?

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:38] I just. I don't know if I can be in a room with that man and be nice. Like, I. I'm so upset because he's not being honest. You. If he wanted to use anything but that, maybe it'd be fun, fine, but he's not being honest. I mean, Martin Luther King, they. They use him and say, well, Chanel, you know, you, you get angry sometimes you need to be like, Martin Luther King. Have you heard him talk? He is, you know, strong and with his fist and everything. And you, he was still killed. And you guys, you. The, the church leaders threaten Romney's father with his life if he didn't stop participating in the movement. Yeah, Ezra Tough Benson was the worst.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] He.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:23] He was, he was the prophet.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:25] Yeah. And he was a prophet leading his people. And he was very against. But you know what? See, and this is what I'm finally understand. I couldn't understand for the life of me, my 30 plus years in the church, like, why are they so against civil rights and, and George Floyd and this and this and that. And I thought they're leaders. They're trying, like, I'm not excusing them, but their leaders have told them these things. What are they supposed to do? Again? You've got John now telling them the same kind of things, like this is what you need to do, and this means this and this means. So they're just trying to do the right thing.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] When you say John, who do you mean?

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:00] Oh, Corbett. Ahmad. John. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I'm glad you clarified. Ahmad.

John Dehlin [01:01:05] Okay. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:06] Who's John?

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Am I me?

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:07] Amar.

Samantha Shelley [01:01:08] Oh, by who's John, Ahmad.

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:10] Corbett.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Okay. Yeah, yeah. Ahmad. Yeah, yeah. But by the way, do we all remember that. That Hubie Brown was removed from the first presidency as soon as David O. McKay died, largely for his support of. Of black people receiving the priesthood and getting the temple rights restored like that happened in the 1970s by Joseph Fielding Smith. Right? So like, yeah. And then the final thing is he, he. He basically says activism is a wrong tool for the wrong job in the wrong place. If he believes activism has its place, why wouldn't he say the right tool for the wrong job in the wrong place? But he says wrong tool. Doesn't that signal that activism is bad in and of itself? Otherwise he'd say the right tool for the wrong job.

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:00] Correct?

John Dehlin [01:02:01] I don't know.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:02] I mean, he probably is like a Christian nationalist, right? Like, yeah, but he just is doing the necessary caveats to be like, well, I'm not saying all activism is bad. Like, don't come for me there. Because, you know, he had to clean up Brad Wilcox's what about the whites?

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:02:19] But like, I don't think he really cares about activism. Even in government probably.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, let's go ahead and go to the next clip. And this clip is entitled Activism towards The Church Part 2.

Activism Framed as Undermining the Doctrine of Christ

Ahmad Corbitt [01:02:36] Why? Because it effectively but subtly undermines the doctrine of Christ, which is God's plan for changing, saving and exalting his children. How timely is the recent declaration of the Lord's prophet? There has never been a time in the history of the world when knowledge of our Savior is more perfect, personally vital, and relevant to every human soul. The pure doctrine of Christ is powerful. It changes the life of everyone who understands it and seeks to implement it in his or her life.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] I'm just like, where was the doctrine of Christ when Joseph smith was propositioning 14 year old girls? Where was the doctrine of Christ when Brigham Young was, you know, making slavery legalized in the Utah territory? Where was the doctrine of Christ, you know, to. To get the church leaders to support women being treated equally? Where was the doctrine of Christ to support November 15th or then over 15? Like, where is he getting this idea that some nebulous belief in the doctrine of Christ solves our problems? What caused the Mormon Church to end polygamy in 1890 when they actually ended it in 1905? But what was it? What was it, the doctrine of Christ that caused the church to end polygamy? Does anyone want to tell me what, what caused the church to end polygamy? What was it? Was it the doctrine of Christ?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:03] The government?

Samantha Shelley [01:04:04] Government pressure, wasn't it?

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Government pressure?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Every single change the Church has ever met made has not been made by some nebulous doctrine of Christ. It's been made by social or government pressure. That's bad media exposure. Members leaving tax exempt, status being threatened, Bad pr. That's what you Know that's what causes the church to change. Not give me one example of the nebulous doctrine of, of, of Christ making any significant change in the church independently.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:37] And how good is the doctrine of Christ if it can be undermined by activists pushing for social change that creates a fairer, more compassionate world? Like, what is this weak ass doctrine of Christ? Weak sauce Christ that is like so easily aff by something so good.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Samantha, you're more powerful than, than Jesus. Basically.

Samantha Shelley [01:04:55] Basically.

John Dehlin [01:04:56] I've always said that the doctrine of Christ. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of weak sauce. But, but he's, but he's making that argument and I just. Where's he coming from?

Samantha Shelley [01:05:06] And what define it? Like, what is the doctrine of Christ? It's just like this abstract thing. So you're saying that like this abstract thing is the solution to problems, not, you know, these concrete, tried and true methods that actually do bring about positive change, which is just. It's not like he's like, instead of going about it this way, here's a better solution. He's basically just saying, shut up, don't

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:27] talk about it always.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Isn't that what it is?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:30] It's always, just shut up. Please. Just not even. Please just stop.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, just, just stay silent. That's really what he's saying. Yeah. Because it sounds good. For those who believe in Jesus. It sounds really good to say.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:45] Trust me, anything you can just chill.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:47] Like, if there's any injustices. Well, it would be satanic of me to try and bring about change, so I'm just gonna relax and enjoy my privilege.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Trust in the doctrines of Christ.

Samantha Shelley [01:05:55] Yeah, yeah, easy.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] And the weird thing is, Martin Luther King Jr. Was a Christian preacher. Yeah, like, but he didn't say that. He didn't just say trust in the doctrines of Christ to make social change.

Chanel Achenbach [01:06:07] No, he did not.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, well, let's go ahead and keep going. So now he talks to us about what to do about deception. Oh, oh, go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:18] Sorry, just a point, please, where he's getting at, John. And I think this is. He's hinting to prophetic infallibility.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:29] That the church can't do no wrong.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:31] And that the church and its leaders, it will change because God wants them to change, not because of activism.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:41] And God's down to take his time fixing racism. You know, he's not in a hurry.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's these accounts of David O. McKay begging and begging God to lift the, the band, the Priesthood band and the temple band. And God just wasn't having any of it. Right.

Samantha Shelley [01:06:57] That's what's so annoying is all the apologetics just like, hinge on. Well, the leaders were imperfect and it's like, well, how did. How do we get the leaders to become aware? By petitioning them, like through activism. But that's not. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. All right, well, let's see what he has to say about the deception.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:07:20] As I speak for close quote. As I speak further on the threat to the doctrine of Christ, may I humbly suggest you, as chaplains and your families, consider the following three points. First, we must be especially sensitive to the more vulnerable to this deception. As you know, our brothers and sisters in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have various backgrounds. Some are too young or too focused on church culture to adequately understand what the doctrine of Christ is. Some will have lost sight of the church's saving purpose and power and will see it as more of a social organization to be distrusted. Like worldly institutions generally, those who have a critical or fault finding nature are especially susceptible to this deception. Some who come from other faiths, as I did, will not have doctrinally transitioned enough to understand the doctrine of Christ or its importance. They will likely only know and trust the telestial tools they have seen used in the world. We will have to help them see why the doctrine of Christ should have priority over all other causes, why it should always govern our methods and manners, and why it is our only real hope to accomplish any righteous change or cause.

Targeting Converts and Younger Generations

John Dehlin [01:08:47] All right, Gerardo, what were your reactions?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:50] That last part? That the doctrine of Christ is really the only hope for any kind of change. Yeah, and I was expecting him to say any kind of change in the church, but he didn't say that. He just said, generally, yeah, any kind of change comes through the doctrine of Christ.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] Yeah, for me, there was something kind of condescending about that little passage because he's basically like, there's these weak people out there. And. And for me, I think he was talking to the youth. It's like, oh, our youth. And I'm thinking Gen Z's, right? Our youth are vulnerable and impressionable to. To the workings of Satan. So he's basically, basically saying our younger generations are fools and can be easily misled. You know, Samantha is kind of someone who represents millennials and Gen Z's. Do you. Do you think millennials and Gen Z's are just like fools who are easily misled?

Samantha Shelley [01:09:42] They have just been exposed to information better than the older generation. I mean like media literacy is still an issue among across all generations and like our whole society can do a better job at that. But yeah, I mean I feel like Gen Z and millennials are much more attuned to what injustice looks like and yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] And they're not willing to go along with kind of corporate mandates, corporate structure,

Samantha Shelley [01:10:07] authoritarianism just doesn't, doesn't resonate with us. And like we, we demand that the burden of proof be met more than, you know, like the further back you go, the more magical thinking was just sort of acceptable method of truth determination. Also, he talks about converts. Yeah, and he's like, they haven't learned fast. And it's like they just haven't been brainwashed since they were children. That's what's going on there. So like, yeah, they probably rely on more critical thinking tools than someone who was just raised with this magical worldview would.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] And I forgot to think you are a convert, Samantha, because you converted in your late teens, but you to Chanel as well. What did you think of him? Basically saying that converts lack the full doctrinal understanding. You mentioned that you weren't even really told about, you know, the teachings about black people being less value in the pre existence. What was the source of your lack of doctrinal understanding?

Chanel Achenbach [01:11:01] You know, that cracks me up because I hope all my mission people, my mission companions are watching my skip Scripture mastery and all the things we need to learn. I got that done fast and I, I can tell you what, I knew more about the gospel than a lot of members and it was like, wait a minute, I'm a convert and I'm in it. I, I wanted to know, I want all the discussions. I want this, I want to know what's going on because I want to be able to teach. I feel happy. So I want to go teach it to everybody else. I need to know what I'm talking about. And so for him to say, you know, in the young, you baptize kids at 8 because you said they're accountable and they're too young. Give me a break. Like you send 18 and 19 year olds out to talk to adults and other preachers. I wasn't letting a preacher tell me anything on my mission. I thought I knew everything. I, I knew my scriptures like the back of my hand.

John Dehlin [01:11:53] So I'm just, I, I have never interviewed a, a, a black convert to the Mormon church who was told the church's history with racism before they joined. So for him to then use converts, lack of knowledge against them. When. When the church knowingly and intentionally withholds that information. When they can, you know, when they convert them to the church. That. For me, that's outrageous.

Chanel Achenbach [01:12:19] Yes. And as a lawyer, he should know that that makes them liable for that. You need to tell people conform and sent informed consent.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] Yeah, yeah. Jehovah's Witnesses, I think they make an investigator investigate for a year before they join, right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:31] It's around a year.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Yeah. They could do that. They could have done that with you. And maybe if they had, maybe there would have been a different result.

Chanel Achenbach [01:12:38] I met with Jehovah's Witness first for a year.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] So anyway. Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Well, okay. All right, let's go to the next clip where he talks about Alma the Younger. And by the way, this. This acronym he uses, atc.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:53] Can we talk about that?

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:55] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [01:12:57] I know, because.

Samantha Shelley [01:12:58] Okay, 1. The good faith interpretation is just. It's annoying to keep saying a long phrase over and over.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] What does it stand for? What is at.

Samantha Shelley [01:13:05] The activism towards the church. Yeah, yeah, but I'm like. I feel like it's common cult tactic, right? To. To create. To create an acronym or jargon that only the in group will understand. So that. And it's a thought termining, thought terminating cliche. So every time you see it, you can be like, ah, atc. Like, is he trying to start a movement? But yeah, I don't know. I thought it was interesting because if he would have said the things he's saying in this talk over and over again using the actual words like activism towards the church, he knows how an. Well, he probably has some sense of how that wouldn't be received. Well, he has to give it a different name. He has to, like, color it with something different for it to be remotely palatable.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] I think that's an interesting point. Yeah. When Jonathan Streeter, he was the first person that made me aware of. Of this talk, his first comment was, you down with atc? Corbett's not down with atc. All right, let's make much. What's that?

Samantha Shelley [01:14:04] Let's make much.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] That's some good merch. That's a self. That's a self assignment. All right, let's go to his next point.

Labeling Critics as Instruments of Satan

Ahmad Corbitt [01:14:14] Secondly, we must recognize who these our brothers and sisters are or who they tend to be. Among the many important lessons I take from Book of Mormon is the principle that we cannot always judge others premortal righteousness by their current state of confusion or even rebellion, although foreordained, to lead and gather among their Civilization. Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah during their younger years allowed Satan to misdirect their inherent capacity and possibly an innate sense of purpose. Once converted, they engaged in their true purpose, the work of salvation and exaltation, including the gathering of Israel. Their experience and that of their parents also teach us that our examples and prayers of faith on behalf of those who are vigorously misguided can be powerful and effectual. This story of redemption of the errant valiant makes the prophets call to today's rising generation to help gather Israel more timely and urgent.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] So in my mind he's basically saying Mormons who, who lead activism towards the church are, are tools of Satan and he calls them errant valiance. Anyone have a thought or reaction to that? I mean, who's he talking about? I. I think that's worth. Who are the activists of the past 30 or 40 years? Who are they? Who's he talking about?

Samantha Shelley [01:15:50] What ones have stayed in the church? That's what I'm wondering. I'm thinking about like, can you have stayed?

John Dehlin [01:15:56] I mean, I could think of like B H Roberts was a kind of an activist. Fawn Brody was an activist when she told the truth about Joseph Smith.

Chanel Achenbach [01:16:04] Do you think Joanna Brooks is.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] I think Joanna Brooks is an activist.

Chanel Achenbach [01:16:07] I think she's a great one.

John Dehlin [01:16:08] Yep. Jenna Reese, Juanita Brooks was an activist.

Samantha Shelley [01:16:13] I mean it was you because you were a Mormon. You were still in the church for a lot of people, you know, podcast.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Right. I definitely feel I was inspired by Martin Luther King. I'm Malcolm X before I ever started Mormon Stories. But, but also even, Even in the 60s and 70s, there's Eugene England who started Dialogue Journal of Mormon Thought. There's, you know, the founders of Sunstone magazine, Peggy Fletcher Stack and, and others. There's the September six who are activists, you know, people like Maxine Hanks and Paul Toscano and Margaret Toscano and those types of people. Michael Quinn. Yeah. And then, you know, Dry's Gray Romney's father. Yes. Stuart Udall and, and George Romney. You know, these are the people that he's talking about. And then there's modern day examples as well. Mormons building bridges. Kendall Wilcox started that. Like probably Stephanie Larsen from Encircle.

Samantha Shelley [01:17:12] And also beyond all of those, I think like one of the biggest threats to the church is just your average Mormon that's on TikTok and is kind of open about their doubts and connecting with other like, slightly less orthodox but still very Mormon people in the community. Like, I feel like at this point like the September six and stuff is almost irrelevant to them. Like what they're really suffering from is like the, the average Joe person who's on tick tock in the congregation.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:17:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:41] And he's comparing activists towards the church to Alma the Younger who were with, you know, he was trying to destroy the church. So that's kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:53] You know, because it's kind of like the outsiders. Activists who is a church are people who have connection to us, but you know, they come from the outside.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] Yeah. Some of the comments, so many of the comments mentioned Sam Young in his, his cause to protect LDS children. And I think of Jeremy Reynolds and Zeph on the Shelf and I think of RFM and Bill Real and others, you know, and I just think it's so severe like when you think of all these people to say that they're being led by Satan, that they're tools of Satan.

Samantha Shelley [01:18:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Isn't like was Sam Young a tool of Satan when he called on the church to stop having, you know, 50, 60 year old men asking 12 year old girls behind a closed door where and when they touch themselves? Like was Sam Young led by Satan? You know, was, was, were the ordained women women? Were they, were they led by Satan when they asked the church to treat women with more equality? You know, is Gerardo led by Satan when he, when he says Mormon Church, you're, you're causing the premature death of tens of thousands of LGBT youth. Is, is Gerardo led by Satan?

Samantha Shelley [01:19:12] And isn't the biggest victory for Satan just categorizing all of those people in like the bad tool for Satan category rather than having like Christ like empathy, even if you think that their methods are wrong and like unhelpful. But at least to, to see their hearts as they are instead of having to mischaracterize where their hearts are in order to like self soothe because you know, your thing isn't holding up very well in this new social climate. Yeah, like I feel like Satan wins more when we just like belittle activists efforts and lump them into this group rather. He hasn't really done much of a job saying, you know, kind of like honoring the like empathy and compassion that most of these efforts will stem from. That's just feels like insignificant because it's almost like he can't allow himself to reckon with that for sure.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:59] I, I, I'm listening to and that's what I think, like I don't think people understand too, you guys, is that, remember I was a member for 30 something years without my family My new family was all Mormons. So when I left, I did. I do have messages that says, you're led by Satan, you're evil, you're apostate, you're this. These are people that were in the room when I had my baby. These are people that I love. These are people who. I'm in Utah, my family's in Texas. And so these are the people that I trusted with everything who are now telling me I'm terrible. I hope you have a terrible birthday party. I hope this, I hope that. And I'm like, wait, they love me.

Samantha Shelley [01:20:38] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [01:20:39] You know, it's.

John Dehlin [01:20:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:42] And not. I mean, the elephant in the room is that most of the changes or significant changes that happen in the church are because of active activists, you know, and just completely say that they're a work of Satan. But then, I mean, it's undisputable that a lot of these changes were done because of activists.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:04] They want to take credit for all their work.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:06] Right?

John Dehlin [01:21:07] Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I can't think of any significant change the church has ever made, absent of activists. And what do they do as a thank you to the activists that instigate their positive change? They excommunicate Sam Young. They excommunicate Fon Brody. They excommunicate the September Six. You know, they. They threaten and intimidate George Romney or Stuart Udall or others. And, you know, and it. It. It has to be said that it's a basic cult tactic to smear or to fair game any. Anyone who stands up and criticizes, you know, the leadership.

Samantha Shelley [01:21:44] Yeah, I mean, that's like, the point I feel like here in this talk is that's just what it is. This textbook cult response to criticism.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:53] If you look at the history of the church, I mean, for a long, long time, there were activists, but there were not like John Lentz or, you know, Radio Free Mormons in the past. You know, we have BH Roberts and people. People like that that were still part of the church. A lot of them hiding that maybe they didn't believe anymore or that their beliefs were a lot more progressive than they were publicly presenting them at. So the church is definitely experiencing something that they haven't experienced before in their history. And I think, I mean, most people that have been close to the Brethren or have worked for church headquarters and know this, they would say that the Brethren don't like people or activists or whatever to get ahead of them.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Yeah. And don't get ahead of the Brethren.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:52] Right.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:22:52] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:53] So this is a way to like put people in place again. I mean, they, they, No, I, I think they've realized that they've lost control. Right. So then they have to. Because, you know, if you compare it to Ezra Taft Benson's talk and you know, before he became the prophet of the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet, which is kind of comparable to this talk, is kind of like the prophet doesn't make mistakes, you know, when he speaks that, that's it. Like every change that comes from the church is inspired. And you know, anyway, that, that was a talk to, you know, to the, to the members, you know, saying like, you know, don't get ahead of the prophet. Where here is kind of like trying to shield the members from the activists that they can't control anymore.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:44] And so, yeah, so there's a, a huge difference. And you know, a little bit desperate from the. I, I'm seeing it as a desperate attempt.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:56] By the church to stop the hemorrhaging.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Yeah, that's absolutely. The context of this talk is the church is hemorrhaging its members. It's losing its youth, it's losing its Gen Z members, its millennial members in droves. Missionaries are coming home early from their missions and apostatizing from the church. And it's not just the Mormon Church, it's, it's most Western Christianity. But this is a desperate attempt to, to plug that hole. And I'm just going to say I'm old enough to remember I was at BYU in the September six emerged and when the church excommunicated them all. And this includes Lavina Fielding Anderson. Do any of you remember what Lavina Fielding Anderson was advocating for? She's one of the. September 6th. Do you know what she did? She created a list of, of priesthood leaders who were abusing the members. That's all she did. She was a faithful, active member to this day, as I understand it, she's never stopped attending church even 30 plus years after being excommunicated. She was a believer, she was faithful. All she said was, hey, there's leaders in this church that are abusing members or protecting abusers and we need to create a list of abusive leadership so that, so that we can have less abuse in the church. And that's what Lavina Feeling Anderson was excommunicated for. Now, why have none of you ever heard of Levine Feeling Anderson? Because excommunication is effective. Once they excommunicated September 6th, that created a silence between 1993 and 2003, 2004, where scholars were afraid they were terrified to say anything, to speak out, because they knew they would. They would, you know, experience the same fate as the September 6th. And you're exactly right, Gerardo. It's what's different. What's different between 2005, 2004, and 1993? It's the Internet. And it's the ability not only for activists to raise their voices through blogs, through podcasts, through social media, through tick tock, Instagram, YouTube, not only our activists are able to raise our voices, but. But the church can't silence us. And I. I can't tell you, every single week, I have actively serving Mormon missionaries, members of Bishop Bricks, active bishops, members of Stake presidencies, members of Stake High Councils, and even stake Presidents reach out to me, John de Lynn, and say, I love Mormon Stories podcast. I'm stake president. I don't know what to do. I don't want to tell my whole stake that I no longer believe. I don't want to face those consequences. But thanks for Mormon Stories for helping me stay sane. And my point is, is that we're no longer going away. You can excommunicate us, you can smear us, you can tell us that we're, you know, tools of Satan, but we're not going away. We're just not. And, you know, it's. It's no longer going to work to deride us. And I'm just going to say, never has my interest been or my motivation been personally in destroying the Mormon Church. Maybe some of you feel differently. Maybe some of you want to see the Mormon Church destroyed. I just want to see the church cause less harm to the people who are in it. That's my motivation. What about you, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:06] So I have two motivations. I like you. I have people in my inbox that publicly are afraid to say something. Thank you, Chanel. Remember you on your mission. I'm glad you're saying this. I want to say it, but if I do, I'll lose my family, I'll lose my job, I'll lose this, this and that.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] And so you're giving voice to the voices.

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:22] I'm just. I'm just gonna speak. And then there's a lot of black people that don't know the history of the church. They're like, okay, I heard it was racist, but what? And so they're like, oh, I'm letting my. I'm not letting my kids anywhere near that. And also, I just said that, President Nelson, that, you know, they said that there are slaves that were sealed to, like, Joseph Smith and stuff like that. I told him, hey, my other purpose is if I'm speaking out and I'll stop speaking if you will sell me to Brigham Young so I can fight him in the afterlife. That's all I want. I'll join and I'll shut up.

John Dehlin [01:27:59] I love it.

Samantha Shelley [01:28:00] I mean, you say you don't want to destroy the church, but what is the church? It's a multi billion dollar corporation that has enormous wealth and power that it's using to cause enormous harm. And I think even, even becoming less racist, becoming less homophobic, even those things are not the be all. And like there's, there's even more. You know, it just runs so deep. It just feels like there's no, there's nothing salvageable here, in my opinion.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:24] Well, it's kind of when people, when people, you know, like Rick Bennett or Patrick Mason asks John Delaney what would it take for, for John to come back to church? And it's basically, you have to redo the whole thing,

Samantha Shelley [01:28:38] give away all their money.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:40] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] Apologize.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:42] But, but to say, I think it's too reductive to say that John Delane or any of us are trying to destroy the church, you know, and paint us as like Alma the Younger, who was actively trying to destroy the church.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] It's not hominin to call us tools of Satan. It's literally ad hominem. Right, right. It's a way to smear and discredit us.

Samantha Shelley [01:29:01] Yeah, but, but what is the church that, like, I don't know. And I know what you're saying, like it's, it's not that you just blindly want to just, you know, lash out against this organization, but it's like everything this organization represents seems to be bad.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:29:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] Right. Well, I, I for one am not a believer that, that the answer to civilization's problems is to destroy all churches or religions because I do think tax them. Yeah. Take away their tax exempt status, Tax them, hold them accountable, require them to give informed consent. But I believe, I do believe that churches historically have provided an important organizing structure to society and that they've helped us achieve the levels of, of civilization that we have. And so that's just all that's all I'm saying is I don't think the answer to our problems today is just to destroy all churches.

Chanel Achenbach [01:29:54] Of course not.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] I think we need to make our organizations more. Just reduce the harm, make them more just. That's all I'm saying. That's. It's in my heart.

Chanel Achenbach [01:30:02] I think that's important. I Think that's really important that you said that.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] Yeah. Thank you. But you know how. I think to your point, Samantha, how does the Mormon Church change without destroying itself? I think that. But. But in my mind, that's a problem the church has to figure out. That's not my department.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:20] Well, I just feel like when all of this. When. When it has very few members and very little social power anymore, it will just be a multi billion dollar corporation doing all the evil that we see all corporations doing. And it will have. It will be just as powerful in other ways.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] It'll be a lot like Scientology, but 100.

Samantha Shelley [01:30:39] And all of its wealth was generated on the back of. Of deluding people and harming people. So it's like, how can it, you know, unless it like, redistributes all its wealth to, like, actually effective altruistic causes, like it's gained all this wealth and power through horrible means.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] Yeah, well, we'll let them figure it out. We'll just call out the problem.

Samantha Shelley [01:31:04] Yeah, like, there's more of a semantics discussion than anything as well. Like, do we want to burn down the church?

John Dehlin [01:31:09] Yeah, totally. All right, let's go to a discussion of ATC in depth.

How Corbitt Says Activism Diminishes Faith

Ahmad Corbitt [01:31:15] In my experience, ATC rarely starts by saying, don't have faith in Jesus Christ. Rather, it diminishes faith in Christ and trust in God. Indirectly. Its pattern is to first undermine faith in church leaders. Here's how I've seen this work. Activism rightly recognizes the popular truism that power corrupts. Activists tend to naturally suspect the powerful. The United States Constitution, with its multiple checks and balances, is a monument to distrust of human nature as it relates to government or popular power and authority. Such distrust is often essential to gaining or retaining basic freedoms. But this distrust is the very opposite of the faith the Lord requires of his covenant people in himself, his prophets and apostles and those they direct. He established his apostles as an extension of himself. Jesus prayed that they, his apostles may be one, even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them as thou hast loved me. Elsewhere he revealed, he that receiveth my servants receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth my Father. Wherefore, meaning the church, the Lord said, thou shalt give heed unto all the prophets, words and commandments, for his word ye shall receive as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith, he said, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants. It is the same. ATC's criticism of the Lord's prophets has already decoupled a prophet or two from the prophetic line from Joseph Smith to President Nelson in the minds of some and is working on other prophets. The Lord further declared the first presidency should be upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church. Naturally, this same sustaining faith applies to the twelve apostles who officiate in the name of the Lord under the direction of the presidency of the church, agreeable to the institution of heaven, to build up the church and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations. The Lord calls upon his covenant children to sustain other general and local leaders of the church called under the direction of the first presidency and the twelve. Thus, activism or advocacy that could weaken one's own or another's confidence, faith, or prayer in or on behalf of church leaders or diminish one's ability to give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles is obviously not of God. In my observation, such lack of faith inevitably leads to letting go of the church entirely and losing the testimony of Jesus. Hence, ATC often indirectly under undermines faith in Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [01:34:51] Oh, man, my blood. My blood pressure is boiling. Who wants to go first?

Chanel Achenbach [01:34:56] Chanel, I need to count to 10. Okay, so here's the thing. There's a couple of things that he does. First of all, he talks about church leaders being powerful, that people are afraid of power. I thought they were humble, but now they're powerful. Okay, so that's number one. That sticks out. And then several times he says, you're faithless. You have no faith. You have no faith. What scares members more than anything is to tell them they have no faith. Lack of faith. That's scary. And he said it several times. And so it's like.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] It's manipulative, you're saying.

Chanel Achenbach [01:35:26] Very manipulative. You have no faith. And then, not only that, your faithless person will be led to darkness. Now you'll be dark. Now you'll be evil, because now you have no faith.

John Dehlin [01:35:40] Okay, Gerardo, what do you think?

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:43] This is the meat of the talk?

John Dehlin [01:35:44] Yeah, this is the thing. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:46] It's. Which is that, you know, whatever the church leaders say, it comes from God, and no one should question it.

John Dehlin [01:35:55] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:57] And this last part where he compares Jesus with the prophet, you know, if you question the prophet, if activism causes you to question the prophet, then that makes you, you know, question Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] That.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:12] That's me. Equals questioning Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:36:16] Yeah, yeah. I've been on record as saying that if, you know, while I'm generally supportive of religious freedom minus tax exempt status, like one, one religious thing that should be made illegal in the United States of America and in all countries is to be able to claim that you speak for God or Jesus. Why? Because that's way too much power to give anybody. And so to basically say that, that if, if. And he doesn't just stop with, with the prophet and the first presidency of the quorum of the 12, he takes it all the way down to local leaders. Yeah. And then he restates that quote from the Doctrine and Covenants. Whether by my own voice or by the servants, it is the same. He's basically saying that Mormon church leaders speak directly for God. And I'll just ask you, was, Was Brigham Young close to Jesus? Was Brigham Young speaking for Jesus? Was Delber Stapley speaking for Jesus? Was Ernest Wilkinson speaking for Jesus? Was Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith speaking for Jesus? Like, where in the history would Dallin H O expuse his homophobic rhetoric? Is he speaking for Jesus? Like, where is the evidence that these men are so close to God and Jesus that they speak, they know, let alone speak, God and Jesus's will? What we have evidences is the opposite. That they speak homophobic things, that they speak racist things, that they speak misogynistic and sexist things. That's the evidence that we have. So. So number one, there's no reason to believe these men literally speak for Jesus. What we know is that they speak harmful things. But then we're told to believe that the words that come out of their mouth are literally God and Jesus's words. And, and to disobey them or to criticize them is to. Critics criticize God and Jesus. To me that's heinous. To me that's outrageous.

Samantha Shelley [01:38:07] Samantha, do you actually think it should be illegal for people to say that they speak for God?

John Dehlin [01:38:11] I Do you think it should be

Samantha Shelley [01:38:12] illegal to be able to say that?

John Dehlin [01:38:13] I do. Because there's too much power. It's, it's coercive because people are gullible and they tend to believe it. I don't know. What do you think?

Samantha Shelley [01:38:21] Well, I mean, I think ideally we would have a population that is educated enough to know that anytime they see that, like run from it. I don't, I do feel like it. I'm not a big religious freedom guy, but I mean, I do believe in free speech. And if people want to say unhinged things, whatever. But.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:38] But, you know, it's kind of like when Joseph Smith's time, it was illegal to claim to find treasure and to pretend to find treasure. It would be kind of the same kind of thing. What? Yeah, from what I understand, John, advocating for it would be illegal to pretend to speak for God.

John Dehlin [01:39:00] I mean, in my political science classes, there was always this, this theoretical example of a limit of free speech. Can you yell fire in a crowded movie theater? You can't, because that speech. But. Or can you, can you, can you engage in hate speech that riles up a population to then commit hate crimes? There has to be limits on free speech. And just like hate speech, just like dangerous speech, telling people, hey, you have good feelings because I'm charismatic and I wink at you and I'm handsome or whatever, and I can make you feel good. Well, now I'm going to tell you that God has told me what you should be doing. That's just too much power for any one human to hold. And whether it's Jim Jones or David Koresh or Keith Ranieri or Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh or Joseph Smith or Warren Jeffs, that's way too much power to give any one person. And we've seen what happens when we allow people to make those claims. It's almost always disastrous results. When has it not been disastrous for. For a human to tell others he speaks for God?

Samantha Shelley [01:40:09] Well, probably when it's just like some local lunatic that nobody would listen to. I mean, obviously it's so much scarier when they have wealth and power and they lead an organization.

John Dehlin [01:40:18] And all I'm saying is that's how it starts. Every one of those people I just mentioned was a. Was a local lunatic that then got a following.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:26] As much as I don't represent this phenomenon very well, there's a reason that, like, in Europe, Mormon missionaries don't do well, because if you go to people in Europe and you're like, there's a guy that speaks for God, they're like, absolutely not. We evolved past that idea like, six generations ago. That's like, obviously. So I think, like, the dream would just be that everyone is like, I'm not going to buy into the idea that someone else speaks to God anyway. We don't have to debate the free speech element of it. But also interesting that we have different positions. And I'm the one on the religious freedom side in this one.

John Dehlin [01:40:53] You're totalitarianistic, Samantha.

Samantha Shelley [01:40:55] Totally. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:56] But the FDA says you can't say certain things. Like, you can't just start claiming things. And also there's fraud. Yeah, it's fraud. And, and in religion, there's also fraud and also correct in another country. Here in America, we are oppressed. We are oppressed. We are oppressed. And we're told, you have to do this. You need to believe this. Or sometimes, like if you look now, if you're not a Christian, you get, you don't, you don't do well in certain places in areas. And so that, that makes sense. Like there has to be some kind of responsibility. I mean, so, so look at it now. So this organization, this, this million, over a million member religion has told people that I am cursed, marked, and all of these other things. So.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] Yeah, yeah, well. Yeah, go ahead.

Samantha Shelley [01:41:47] Well, the main point I was going to make is like, wasn't the whole thing with Jesus just that he was a nobody? He wasn't somebody who had wealth and power? He was a nobody. Criticizing these hierarchical, patriarchal structures of power. And I feel like this whole talk is just illustrating why having a patriarchal, hierarchical religion doesn't work because there's no legitimate way to criticize people in power, which Jesus apparently showed us was a very important thing to do because power does corrupt.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] It does.

Samantha Shelley [01:42:17] I have to leave this panel.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] All right, well, Samantha, you've all been so wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us. Samantha, it's been great to have you. You sorry and come on back anytime.

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:26] No, you're totally fine.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] All right, so let's go ahead and go to the next clip from Brother Corbett.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:42:38] Heavenly Father knew only an infinitesimal fraction of his mortal children would meet the Savior of the world in person. Therefore, most would learn of Jesus and his doctrine through the witness of others. Chief among these mortal witnesses are his prophets and apostles or special witnesses of the name of Christ. In all the world, Joseph Smith taught, the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ. Yet, focusing on their imperfections, ATC opposes thinking, opposes their testimony by undermining their credibility in the eyes of its followers. Masquerading as a higher, nobler cause, ATC instigates distrust of these leaders in these ways. It weakens faith in them and their message and potentially inhibits their ability to regulate all the the affairs of the church and all nations. As you can see, Lucifer gets a very efficient twofer out of this misdirected activism toward the church. By seemingly customizing this deceptive approach to the valiant, he cleverly diminishes their real power faith and robs them of their true mission, the gathering. He effectively turns gatherers into scatterers

John Dehlin [01:44:12] so that's kind of clever. That's a clever use of language. He's turning gathers into scatterers. And. And I would just ask to. To what extent, like, he wants to paint it. Like, all we do is sit around trying to find fault with. With the leaders of the church. And is that a fair characterization, Chanel? Is that what you've got a Saturday night free? You know, you've got a Wednesday afternoon free. Are you just nitpicking, just trying to find fault with whatever thing wrong that the brethren are saying? I mean, he's calling into question your

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:48] sincerity, basically, on Saturday nights, we're not talking about the church, anything about it. We're playing games. We're being rowdy. We're being loud. And the thing that's disturbing, too, is that he's a lawyer. So what he does is what lawyers are supposed to do. Instead of talking about if something is true or not, they'll attack the character. So then you focus on the character of the person. You no longer care if what they did. And so based on how bad their character is, you can convict them or not. And this is what he's doing. He is convicting activists by attacking their character and who they are, about describing what they look like by their behavior.

John Dehlin [01:45:27] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:28] It's also interesting because even if we were John, even if we were spending our Sunday afternoons looking at what Russell M. Nelson last said to try to find something nefarious that he said, even if that was true, he's characterizing the work of activists as to, like, basically what I'm picturing it is him, if us, like, would sit around and just criticized. When Russell Nelson is talking about Jesus and where he's talking about faith or repentance or, you know, racism or whatever good topic he might talk about.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:13] And that's not what we're criticizing. Activists.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] No.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:16] Will criticize injustices. And that's where he started the talk. And then all of a sudden he shifted to whatever criticism. And no, to make it sound like activists are, like, criticizing everything, just, you know, looking for any kind of fault on it.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Exactly. Because if you think about all the activists that we've mentioned, what are they talking. Speaking out against, Right? Racism, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, protecting children against rape and abuse. Lying, lying. Like, these are not. Or even Jeremy Runnels or others, just with the church, with informed consent, and the church being honest, like, these are not trivial matters. These are matters that affect the lives and that even can be matters of life and death to. To so many people. And so he's just basically. I think he's trivially trivializing.

Chanel Achenbach [01:47:08] Very much so. I think so.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:10] What.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] What, What's. What people are trying to do.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Sustaining Leaders and Suppressing Dissent

Ahmad Corbitt [01:47:21] Let us also help our friends see that ATC is therefore a perfect strategy to lure them into not sustaining church leaders. President Henry B. Eyring counseled the church to ask ourselves, have I thought or spoken of human weakness in the people I have pledged to sustain? He reminded us, these are imperfect human beings as are you. Keeping your promises to sustain them will take take unshakeable faith that the Lord has called them. But ATC focuses precisely on their human weakness rather than their strengths and mantles. In doing so, it subtly gives permission and justification for murmuring, backbiting and evil, speaking of the Lord's anointed, all deceptively cloaked as principled. Let us also be aware that ATC takes advantage of some of our newer and converting brothers and sisters who may be more used to religious traditions where leaders are hired and fired by their local congregations. Some will be more accustomed to religious leaders who avoid controversial topics and congregants moral choices or who may have different standards altogether. Those who, contrary to President Nelson's candidates council rehearse their doubts with other doubters will be especially vulnerable to not sustaining their leaders and to atc. But with our help, Isaiah's insightful prophecy will come to pass in their they that erred in spirit shall come to understanding and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. Because ATC rejects church leaders and their council usually openly, it must somehow preserve a sense of religious sincerity or authenticity to effectively influence others. Thus it produces catchphrases such as I don't follow the brethren, I follow Jesus Christ or I am holding the brethren accountable to do what's right. But these dangerous claims are as counter to Jesus own teachings as they are confused. ATC does not realize that he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me. And if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John Dehlin [01:49:50] So he's basically saying that Jesus said that we should not criticize modern day church leaders and that we should basically believe and follow blindly anything they say. Is that not what he's saying?

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:04] That's exactly what he's saying.

John Dehlin [01:50:06] Did Jesus say that? Did Jesus say whatever down I jokes or Russell Nelson says we need to obey and follow?

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:13] Well, if Jesus said that, you know in the doctrine covenants that whatever, whatever they say comes from him, but I

John Dehlin [01:50:20] think he was Quoting the New Testament there. And I think it's just mixing New

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:24] Testament with doctrine Covenant.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] Yeah. But also, Gerardo, you and I were talking about this beforehand. Did Jesus set up a corporation? Like, did Jesus come to set up the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints? Is that what he was doing?

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:36] Not a chance.

John Dehlin [01:50:37] No, he wasn't setting up a corporation. And that's. Do you know the title? Do you know the actual official name of the church? Yeah, it's the corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That's who Russell M. Nelson is. That's his title. And do you think Jesus was saying, do you think Jesus was thinking, in two millennia there are going to be a bunch of white dudes from Utah and Idaho that set up this multi hundred billion dollar corporation and I don't want any of my followers to ever criticize them? Is that what Jesus was doing?

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:11] No, I think James 5, James 15

John Dehlin [01:51:13] said to ask if any of you

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:16] lack wisdom if you're not sure what's going on. I think they said to ask. And I think also Jesus said to follow him and his father, not other people. So I'm kind of confused.

John Dehlin [01:51:26] Yeah, he's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:27] He's also going against progressive members of the church now.

John Dehlin [01:51:31] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:32] When he says, you know about this catchphrases of I don't follow the brethren, I follow Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:51:37] Yeah. That's common.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:38] Yes. Yeah. And in painting it as a nefarious, you know, like saying. Yeah. Declaration that makes people lose faith in the brethren and not sustain. Not sustain them.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:53] Yeah. Kind of harsh, you know.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:57] And yeah, basically this talk is just don't criticize the leaders.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:05] And because whatever they say comes directly from God.

John Dehlin [01:52:08] He's also questioning activists motivation because he says that their efforts are deceptively cloaked as principled. So he's basically saying those who advocate for LGBT rights, those who advocate for, for people of color in the church, those who advocate for women, those who advocate for children like Sam Young or for, you know, fighting abuse, that they're sitting there behind the scenes thinking, how do we, how do we make members no longer believe in God, in Jesus? I know we'll pretend to care about the children, we'll pretend to care about racism, we'll pretend to care about LGBT suicide, but really it's just a sneaky way for us to make them stop believing ultimately in God and Jesus. I mean, is it. That's exactly what he's saying.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:00] Isn't it?

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:01] I. I Don't get it.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] It's really insulting, you know, to you, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:06] Well, I have a question. So he's saying not to question and to sustain them. Okay. So I'm married, and I've also been a manager at an employment. So if I have an employee that is not doing well and it's causing issues to. To the company, then I'm going to talk to that employee. I'm not going to insult them, and I'm not going to talk to them about their personality. I'm going to talk to them about their work, and I'm going to say, hey, John, you know, you're showing up late. When you show up late, it's causing this. And. And this is what's happening. I'm not criticizing you. I'm telling you the things that can be improved. And so when it's improved, you got two things. Either the person's going to take that and improve, or they're going to take that and get mad and leave. Okay, same here. So my spouse, if I just say, oh, honey, you're just so great. You do everything great. How can we grow? How can we become a better couple? If I just say, I just think it's great that you do all these things. Good. But I don't say, hey, Brian, listen, this is happening. This is this. And then we improve. Like, how can you not say anything to them if they are doing things that are hurting people?

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:17] Yeah. And I think his point is, you know, whatever the church leaders say, whatever they do, however the church is run today or has been run in the past, has all come from God. So he's basically saying the. The priesthood ban was from God. The women, things on the temple that were kind of weird, it came from God. The LGBT teachings have all come from God.

John Dehlin [01:54:48] Right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:49] And if God wants to change it, he will let his leaders know. And I will do it through his leaders. So don't try to, you know, bring it up, because God is the one that knows when he is going to want to change it.

Ahmad Corbitt [01:55:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:02] And he's also saying, you know, again, that the leaders can't do no wrong. Yeah. He's trying to say. I mean, he. He does say and sneaks in and there that leaders are imperfect. But it's kind of like when Jim Bennett says, you know, Mormons believe the prophet can forget your birthday, but he can't teach anything. That's against doctrine, you know, And, I mean, we all know it's not true, and he's preventing members, because we all know that the Majority of people who lose their faith lose their faith because they've noticed things that have been done in the past that were wrong or, you know, does not. They don't necessarily align with the teachings of Christ. And then they think, well, if they've been wrong and then they changed because they were wrong, then what does that mean to whatever Russell M. Nelson is saying today about LGBT people or women or whatever? And that consequently leaves people to come to the most logical conclusion with which is this man are just winging it and. Yeah, absolutely not really inspired.

John Dehlin [01:56:22] Yeah. Yeah. If, if, if Bruce Armaconkey was wrong or Brigham Young was wrong, then, then is. Are Russell M. Nelson and down a jokes wrong now? But the other thing is, where is it ever appropriate immoralism to criticize church leaders? What happens if you get up in. In sacrament meeting and bear your testimony and make a criticism? What happens, Chanel, that's not good.

Chanel Achenbach [01:56:45] Yeah, you're going to get a talking to. You're probably going to get threatened, excommunicated or disciplined or your temporary men taken so forth. Yeah, I, I have a question. Am I allowed to ask?

John Dehlin [01:56:58] Yeah, please.

Chanel Achenbach [01:56:58] So he said, he said the word past. And it made me think because members ask me this all the time and they tell me, you need to come back to the church. You want to know why? Because all this racism was in the past. So these teachings were in the past.

Samantha Shelley [01:57:11] Past.

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:11] Okay, so let's, let's say that these teachings were in the past. The problem is those past teachings have not been untaught.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:21] So just because they're not actively teaching it the way it was taught, it has not been addressed.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] Let me ask you this. In the gospel topics essay on race in the priesthood, they sort of try to characterize past racist statements and actions as being folklore and not as doctrine. So in, in some would say the gospel topics I say on race in the priesthood did address the racism of the past by calling it the opinions of men or folklore. Was that not sufficient?

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:52] That is disgusting. Because they are signed letter documents for their first presidency.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:58] And I'm telling you what, they said it with their whole chest. God said this about the, the Negroes. Deal with it.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:05] Don't argue with us about it.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Right. So that, that wasn't enough for them to, to write it off in the, in the, in the essay as being folklore.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:13] It was enough for members that don't look like me.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] Oh, to sleep. Yeah. Okay. That's powerful. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:21] And members who don't know, you know, because I grew up, I Grew up in the church, not going to seminary, going on a mission. I didn't know that Joseph Feeling Smith or Joseph F. Smith sign a letter, you know, claiming that all of this was doctrine. I mean, you have. We have icb. I. I see members all the time commenting on the Internet saying, you know, well, this was never doctrine. The church never said it was doctrine. The prophet didn't call it doctrine. And you literally post screenshots of the letter where they're literally calling it doctrine. And they sign their names.

John Dehlin [01:58:55] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:56] And they're like Mormon lies, right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:59:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] It's Photoshopped. Yeah, Photoshopped. A couple corrections. Colby Reddish wants to make sure we don't paint all lawyers as being bad people. So Colby love lawyers. We love at least two. Radio Free Mormon and Colby Reddish. And there may be others. I'm kidding. There's lots of others. You love lawyers?

Chanel Achenbach [01:59:17] I. I do law and I study that. And I. Yeah, I have no issue with lawyers. I like lawyers. I think it's fascinating what they can do. But I was pointing. People ask, why did. Why do I think Ahmad did and said what he did? Believe it or not, I've worked with a lot of lawyers and helped them with some stuff. And I'm not even a lawyer. I'm not even a law student. But this is what I do because I like it. I've. I've done amendments for divorces and stuff like that. So it's like, I love lawyers. I have no issue with that. I was explaining why. I know why they do what they do. That's what you're supposed to do.

Samantha Shelley [01:59:50] So.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:50] Yeah, true. Another comment. Dega Vertigo wants to tell us that the church's legal name was recently changed to the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not the Corporation of the President.

Chanel Achenbach [02:00:05] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:00:05] So that's. That's true. A couple years ago, the church changed it. I. I think when I was making that reference to Jesus envisioning the future corporation, I think I, you know, that's for the majority of the churches. That was the name. But that's true. But thanks, Diego Vertigo, for keeping us honest. All right, let's keep going with the next clip.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:00:33] By contrast, discipleship of Jesus Christ builds and expresses confidence, faith, and prayer on behalf of church leaders. It fulfills Abinadi's prophecy that every nation, kindred tongue, and people shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion. Seeing eye to eye, especially with the Lord's anointed, is vital to our salvation. Thus, ATC's singular focus blinds it to Jesus, connection to the brethren and their connection to him and the need to follow his principal witnesses in order to. To fully and truly follow Him. Please do not misunderstand. I am not at all saying ATC's causes are not important or good or often pursued in good faith. I tend to agree with many of ATC's underlying causes, as I'm sure you do. A light bulb must be changed to avoid darkness and restore light. My simple point is a hammer is not the right tool for that job. All needed and appropriate changes in the Kingdom of God are God's work to bring to pass. Let me.

John Dehlin [02:01:50] All right, so two, two things that stuck out for me there. Number one is he's saying that you can't truly follow Jesus without the, the apostles and the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. First of all, I'm wondering how many of our Christian brothers and sisters across the world would agree with that statement. Chanel, you're nodding your head.

Chanel Achenbach [02:02:12] I. That's the one thing I wrote down on the notes is like, I know a lot of faithful people that are good Christian, God fearing people that don't. That aren't members, that don't claim to know any prophets or apostles.

John Dehlin [02:02:28] Yeah. Do you agree, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:30] Yeah, the words. I think he used the words seeing eye to eye with them agreeing. Isn't it? Isn't it?

John Dehlin [02:02:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:37] I mean, not just seeing eye to eye. And I think I've heard this phrase used as well with, you know, seeing eye to eye when it comes to, with the family proclamation or with, you know, whatever policy or statement the church has made. It's really, really interesting.

John Dehlin [02:02:58] Yeah. Yeah. We're in, in closed circles. We're always super. Just like Brad Wilcox. We're always super disrespectful to our two members of other faiths, not just Christians, but Muslims. And we, we say kind things to them when we're with them in public, but in private we demean them because that's what he just did. Maybe not intentionally.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:18] Oh, you remember on the mission, we're in the Bible Belt.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] Right.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:22] So.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] So you.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:24] It was pretty rough. Yeah, it was very rough. Just the things that we were said about different religions and they shot back. They started playing the God makers in one little tongue. We were in because we were saying things. So.

John Dehlin [02:03:37] Yeah, yeah. Eventually they shot back.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:39] Oh, they did?

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Yeah. I remember Bruce McConkey called the Catholic Church the great and abominable Church.

Samantha Shelley [02:03:45] He did.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] The whore of all the Earth.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:46] So did all the members.

John Dehlin [02:03:48] Yeah. The other thing he's saying is that a hammer is not the right tool. He's. He's basically equating activism with, like, destruction. Right. Did you. Did you notice that?

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:01] Yeah. And he even showed an image of a hammer hammering or destroying a light bulb.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] Yeah. Again, would you think of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement as a hammer destroying things? I mean, what is it destroying?

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:14] Chanel, you know what? He's got it wrong. You can look at that two ways. I like using a hammer. I'm a crafty girl. So guess what a hammer does precise. It takes that nail precisely puts it in the wall. So how is it bad? Try again.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] Also, what's wrong with smashing injustice?

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:35] I mean, that's what I'm saying. He's got it wrong. It's not the flex he thinks it is. You can use that so many different ways.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:04:41] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:04:42] So.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] Yeah. And I'm just dying for him to tell us what does if. If activism isn't the tool to instigate change.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] What is the tool? And he said generically the teachings of Christ. But I want to know what he means.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:56] Yeah, he's going to say it soon.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] And then I'm going to use those tools and see if it makes the church change. Right. That's what we're going to do. Can we all make that agreement?

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:04] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] Whatever he says, I'm in. Whatever he says, the same solution is, let's all agree to do it and let's see if it leads to change. Deal? Chanel, you in?

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:11] Deal.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:05:12] I think you should wait till.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:14] You should wait till all my chips are in.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] All right, let's see what he says. So he's going to go on now about how ATC can't bring about change. All right.

Judging the Past Versus Defending the Institution

Ahmad Corbitt [02:05:23] Division, we might say. Atc, on the other hand, looks backward with an eye of judgment and condemns, or looks sideways with an eye of scorn and finds fault because it watches for iniquity. ATC sits on the trash heap of disappointing history, recycling others, real or imagined sins and shortcomings. Because it lacks faith, it does not easily forgive. It also finds fault with current attempts to regulate the affairs of the church. Church chaining everyone involved to the past or present. I have personally seen examples where ATC has impeded needed progress in the church by doing more harm than gooda result that often occurs when the wrong tool is used for a particular job. ATC generally ignores church leaders positive features and accomplishments so long as its ends are not achieved or its means not embraced. There is nothing to acknowledge or for which to be grateful. By nature, ATC will always drive its followers to find other issues in diminishing faith.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Atc all right, so ATC looks backwards with the eye of judgment or sideways with the eye of scorn. Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [02:06:47] All right, so. So let me start with this then. So he said that we never see the positive or the wonderful things about the church. I met Dallin H. Oaks on my mission, shook his hand. He said, you are one of our sisters. That was a great thing, but also that was not reflective in the behavior and the attitudes of the members that surround me. And when I tried to talk to church leaders, that wasn't reflective that I was their sister. So also being a single mom and going through hard times, of course, they were helpful to me and kept my silence for a while, bought my silence. But that doesn't mean that bad things that happen. For example, if you have a woman in a bad marriage and he provides her with the million dollar house in a Bentley, but beats her up, how's that beneficial? Same thing.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Yeah. I mean, the church is so good about extolling its own virtues. Like, do we have time to spend a lot of. I mean, we're going to focus on the things that are problematic because the church spends so much time extolling its own virtues. Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:54] Right, right. And the church is such a powerful organization. I think this is something Samantha would say, you know, like, it's so, so powerful. It doesn't need, you know, a group of activists to be pointing out at the good things they do.

John Dehlin [02:08:09] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:11] And, you know, and then, I mean,

John Dehlin [02:08:14] the whole church is set up, whether it's through curriculum, Sunday school, gospel doctrine, you know, sacrament meeting, general conference, all the magazines, all the church public relations. Isn't that all set up to talk about how amazing the church is?

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:29] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:29] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:08:30] Like, do they really want us? Do they really think there's a need for more people to be. To be talking about how awesome the church is? It does a sufficient job itself, even with its charity. It's like bragging all the time about, you know, how the church gives charity to people.

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:46] Can you say something about that?

John Dehlin [02:08:47] Yeah. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:49] So a lot of people like to say to me, chanel, you got a lot of nerves saying the church is racist. They gave a lot of money to the naacp. Excuse me. What the hell does that have to do with me? If you gave money to the naacp, how does that help me as a member and other black members? What does that do for how you were Interacting with us. Help me understand that. I don't care if you gave them a million dollars. What do they have to do with black members? I will wait for that answer.

John Dehlin [02:09:16] Yeah, I. I tended to want to view that as a PR move when.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:19] Of course, it is.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Yeah. I was almost disappointed that the NAACP allowed the church to get away.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:26] I want to talk to them.

John Dehlin [02:09:28] Yeah. So cheaply with. With such valuable pr.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:31] Right. That's not good.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] Because how does the church giving a few million bucks to the NAACP fix the systemic, historic or systemic problems? And just to talk about, you know, looking to the past as being a problem. Why is it a problem to look at the past and say the church needs to atone for its past?

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:49] Right. I mean, it's the thing. It's the thing that I was bringing up earlier. You know, by looking at the past, you're able to. I mean, is. That's something I learned in elementary school. You know, we learn about history in school, so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past or whatever, you know, so looking at what those churches, those

John Dehlin [02:10:11] who fail to learn the lessons of history are forced to repeat them. Yeah, Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:16] Exactly.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:10:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:18] So, like, not mentioning what has happened in the past, like, just how. The way a lot of members have compared how the church treated black people in the past and still treats them badly today with the way, you know, they treat LGBT people, that's just showing. Look, Mormon church. Yeah. You were doing this in the 60s, in the 50s, in the 70s, and you're doing that today with just a different issue.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:51] And them not wanting to see it, like, that's a problem. And then just wanting, you know, to just say, oh, don't look at the past. Focus on whatever good we're doing. Don't even look at our mistakes in the present because they're imaginary. Yeah. It's problematic.

John Dehlin [02:11:10] I want to make a. I want to make a message. We got to make a TikTok of this. I want to make a message to every BYU student who's living under the honor code, you know, to this day what you need to do. BYU student, if you violate any of the principles in the honor code and you're called before either your bishop or the honor code office, just say to your Mormon bishop or the honor code office, hey, stop looking at the past. Like. Like, why don't you. Why don't you. Why don't you. Why are we talking about all the good things I've done in the church? Right. Like. Like the. In the church's teachings around Repentance. You know, they. They basically say you need to look at the past and you need to follow the steps of repentance. Right. Acknowledge the sin in the past, forsake the sin, make restitution for the sin. That's what we were all taught. The past is woven into the church's own teachings of repentance. And time and time again on this podcast, we've decried the church's own failure, the Mormon church's own failure, to live up to its own teachings about repentance, which is inextricably linked with acknowledging your mistakes of the past.

Chanel Achenbach [02:12:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:12:22] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:12:23] Oh, yeah, yeah. I've said. I've said that.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:12:26] You know, and they don't want to deal with that.

John Dehlin [02:12:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only other thing I'll just say is that. Is that they're basically saying that. That, you know, there was that moment where he said that he has personally witnessed activists impede progress in the modern church. And I'm. I've heard this before.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:49] Greg Prince has mentioned that.

John Dehlin [02:12:51] Well, there's. Oh, so Greg Prince once said that Kate Kelly. Kate Kelly set Mormon feminism back, like, 30 years. I also remember hearing this story about how the church was preparing an apology for its racist past.

Chanel Achenbach [02:13:08] Let's hear it.

John Dehlin [02:13:08] But then it got leaked out to the press, and then the church scuttled its planned apology because it got leaked out to the press, and. And people told me that. You've never heard that story before, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [02:13:22] No. And if it doesn't matter, you still owe somebody an apology.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] Right, That's. Yeah. So why would. Why would prophets, seers, and revelators be disincentivized to doing what's right? Because some activist says something on YouTube or on TikTok or because some group marches? Like, I would think if these are prophet seers and revelators led by God and Jesus, which they claim to be, you would think they would do the right thing, regardless of what an activist might do or not do.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:51] Yeah. Or the Marlene Jensen.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:53] The apology to gay people.

John Dehlin [02:13:56] Yeah.

Samantha Shelley [02:13:56] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. What were you gonna say, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [02:13:59] Well, no, it's fine. I. I think. Okay, so you owe an apology. I'm just gonna say that they owe an apology. And if. If. Let's say I'm fighting with my husband, and my kids see us arguing or whatever, and he goes to a different room, and I say, kids, I need to. I need to apologize to dad. You know, that was not nice, what mom did. And they go tell him, dad, dad, Mom's gonna apologize. To you. And I'm like, hell no, I'm not apologizing you now kids. Told you it's not happening. Same thing. Get over it. I mean, that's so ridiculous.

John Dehlin [02:14:33] But that's, you know, that's when Gerardo, you brought up that saying, don't get ahead of the brethren. If you work at church headquarters, you'll hear that every single time. Because there'll always be these initiatives at church headquarters where they're where some well intentioned bureaucrat will try and come up with a policy to help the church stop poking itself in the eye, stop harming itself. But the Brethren have this policy where it can never appear like any of their changes come from the membership, come from the grassroots. Because if it comes from the membership in the grassroots, or worse, if it comes from apostate activists, then it challenges their teaching that they get their direction from God and Jesus. And so that's where this whole idea of don't get ahead of the brethren comes from. And that's why, you know, that's why the Brethren will not do the right thing if activists are calling on them to do the right thing.

Chanel Achenbach [02:15:27] But that's so weird because let, like, if you really ask members, they won't admit it publicly. But I have lots of messages from them and I will not out them. But if, if the church showed that they were human because that's why we have repentance in Jesus Christ and God and so forth, right? It's because we are human. If they say, hey, General Conference, you know what? In our past we had racist teachings. We were terrible, we made mistakes. And at that time, we realized through growth and through understanding more of who God in Christ is, we're a better people. And you know what? This is what we're going to do to make it better. We now have classes and firesides to address what racism is, what it looks like, and how we can help our brothers and sisters actually feel included and actually feel that we are unified. He says that this is the most unified church and doctrine in the world. How, how? So please show me. I have 13 journals of my 33 members membership saying otherwise. Yeah, so.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:33] And the reason, I think it's control. Because, you know, like I've said, as soon as you start showing that these men are human and that maybe sometimes whatever they teach is mixed with their own biases, then members are going to start taking whatever they say with a grain of salt or a lot more, A lot loosely. More loosely and in a more progressive way. And they don't want to lose that control, because that means less tithing.

Chanel Achenbach [02:17:04] Less.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:05] Because most. I mean, some members may say, oh, I think the church has enough money. And Russell Manelson might be wrong when he says, I need to pay my tithing, or that that means, you know, taking the law of chastity or whatever more in a more progressive or loose way.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] Yeah. Sometimes people want to claim that the church cares most about money or the church cares most about its public relations image. I think what the church cares the most about is authority. They want control. Power and control in obedience. Because, you know, they've. Right now they've gotten. They've got more money than God. They could literally live off the interest of the money that they have and. And do fine. And pr. You know, they've got members in such a bubble that members are pretty much oblivious to whatever said in the newspaper. You could have things in the New York Times, and most members will never even know.

Chanel Achenbach [02:18:03] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:18:04] That it was there. But what the church dies without is power and. And authority. And so that's basically what this is. This is a huge play saying, don't undermine our authority. Don't undermine our power. And that's what activists do. Because if the church makes changes in response to activism, then all of a sudden, people question whether the leaders are truly led by God or are they led by the activists.

Chanel Achenbach [02:18:29] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:18:29] Yet they are.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Yeah. And. And if they're prophets, seers, and revelators. There's the whole point. If the church. If the leaders of the Mormon Church were truly prophets, seers, and revelators, there would never be a need for activists, because they would have been ahead of the civil rights movement. They would have been ahead of the Equal Rights Amendment. They would have been the first to champion LGBTQ rights. But they're not. They're always 20 to 30 years behind. So they need to stop calling themselves. Either they need to stop calling themselves prophets, seers, and revelators, or they need to start acting like prophets, seers, and revelators. And if they acted like prophet seers and revelators, all the activists would disappear because there wouldn't be a need for us.

Chanel Achenbach [02:19:12] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:19:13] Right?

Chanel Achenbach [02:19:13] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right, next clip is about ATC having all the answers. I want to hear this.

Gaslighting, LGBT Issues, and Identity

Ahmad Corbitt [02:19:22] In diminishing faith, ATC effectively gaslights our dear brothers and sisters who engage in it, not in the sense that it manipulates them to question their own sanity, but in that it narrows minds, enlarges beams, and blind spots, and invites judgmentalism all at once, whereas discipleship says Lord, is it I, or help thou my unbelief? ATC rarely seeks to humbly understand others perspectives or experience, or to meekly introspect because it has all the information it requires. There's no need for questions. Let me share a personal story. I don't share this story to be mean, but it does so very powerfully illustrate the point. So don't hear meanness. What a preamble. Not long ago I received a letter from a sister who had been a dear friend since we were 18 year old freshmen in college. As a brand new convert, I admired and looked up to her as an example of gospel light and living, which she learned growing up in her suburban Salt Lake City home and from her pioneer parents and forebears. After some catching up, she incredibly, as it may seem, directed her letter to lecturing me about positions and actions I should be taking against the church as a black man in America. Yes, ATC had gotten to her. Naturally, I was disappointed, saddened and worried. My friend's mind was as closed and her judgment as certain as her blind spot was evident. She had no questions about my perspectives or experience, for ATC and its narrative had provided all the information she needed. Therefore experiencing housing projects, poverty, race riots, dangerous public schools, running for my life from black gangs, from white gangs, other crime, victimized family and friends to violence, including in the extreme, the Nation of Islam, the black church, the suburbs, thousands of criminal cases as a lawyer, legal work on racial profiling and fair housing. All facts, perspectives and experience were simply not inquired about by this very sweet person. So powerful is the might and so deceptive, the allure of atc.

John Dehlin [02:22:16] Chanel, what did you think about that listing of discrimination that he's experienced in the context of, of him talking about. Etc. Because he talks about real issues there, right?

Samantha Shelley [02:22:28] Sure.

Chanel Achenbach [02:22:28] I, I think the way he delivers is he, and this has come from a lot of church leaders and members also to me is that I went through this stuff and I'm fine. What's your problem? And I think that's dangerous for the simple fact that, for example, you have Elizabeth Smart who went through a horrible ordeal. She talks about it and she's, she's doing quite well. Well, there's other people that went through similar things that she went through. They're not doing well. That doesn't mean that one is better than the other. That just means that we're different people, me and my girlfriend. I could take a hit to the face. She cannot. So does that mean that I'm better than her? Does it mean that she's a weak, terrible person? No, that means experiences make people different people. And it doesn't mean that black people or anybody should take injustice because he can or because he. He.

Samantha Shelley [02:23:22] He has.

Chanel Achenbach [02:23:22] I used to do that to people, too. I used to say, I'm fine. I wasn't. But I fake it till you make it. I. I felt that if I just kept telling myself it was fine and I was love bombed, that, okay, well, I have friendships that are fun. If I just say what they want me to say, then, okay, so I. So what he's saying is. And one other thing about what he said is, I am not understanding why he need. Remember he said preamble. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be a jerk. I'm gonna be rude. I'm gonna call out my friend. But. And he laughs like he is. I. I am not understanding who he is. But he says these things. Why did he need to use this story? I know why, but he used a story. And. And you have to think about something, guys. I have some very, very, very damaging things about members. I will never share that with anybody, because right now, they'd be beyond canceled. Trust me. They'd be beyond canceled right now if I shared some of those things that they did to me. And I have pictures, but I am not going to destroy their families on something they did 20 years ago. And he. And he's doing this. It's not necessary.

John Dehlin [02:24:40] What I heard him basically saying in his attempt to not be mean, he. He tells the story of people who basically questioned his loyalty and commitment to the Mormon Church because it has a racist past. And then he's saying, well, those people who questioned my commitment to the Mormon Church don't realize that I've suffered a lot of racism myself, and they weren't courteous or kind enough to even ask me questions, you know, about the racism that I knew full well. And what he's trying to do is say that's what activists do. They don't. They don't genuinely care about LGBT people. They don't genuinely care about women or people of color. They don't care about victims of abuse. They don't even care enough to genuinely ask about those people's experiences. They're just trying to find fault and enlarge the beams. He's. It's basically another way. The reason why he said don't hear meanness is because the mean thing he knew he was saying was that activists don't care, don't truly care about the marginalized and aren't really seeking to benefit the lives of the marginalized from a place of empathy. And I'll just ask you again, Gerardo. This is why I asked you, Gerardo, and you, Chanel, about your motivations. Is that you, Gerardo? Do you. Do you genuinely care about the experiences of LGBT people? Because he's basically saying you don't, right?

Ahmad Corbitt [02:26:12] I do.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:13] I do. But, like, yeah, when. If I reach, you know, like, what does that have any. Whatever the church does to lg LGBT people, what does that have anything to do with what. Whatever LGBT people experience in government or, you know, in school, whatever. They're two different things.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] Yeah. He didn't mention any of the racism he experienced in Mormonism, by the way.

Chanel Achenbach [02:26:38] Of course not.

Samantha Shelley [02:26:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:41] Yeah. Is that what you're saying, Gerardo? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:43] Well, they're two different. You know, you're experiencing oppression on two different settings, and me asking you about one setting doesn't mean that I don't care about the other setting. Yeah, I'm just asking you about this

John Dehlin [02:26:57] one setting, but I just don't want to miss the point. He's saying that activists like you, Gerardo, don't genuinely care about the LGBTQ community,

Chanel Achenbach [02:27:05] that you're just trying to start trouble

Gerardo Sumano [02:27:07] and it's not true.

John Dehlin [02:27:08] Or you, Chanel, that you don't really care about black members of the church. You're tone deaf, and you're just trying to create a beam to criticize the brethren.

Chanel Achenbach [02:27:16] Correct. They tell me all the time.

John Dehlin [02:27:18] Is that. I mean, do you want to speak to that directly?

Chanel Achenbach [02:27:20] Sure. So here's the thing.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] You don't care about black people in the church.

Chanel Achenbach [02:27:25] Of course I do. And I care and what I do. You want to know the thing that's more than anything, John, is I care about the members that don't know. So many members don't really know what. They just follow. They. They. They drink the milk, but they've never eaten the meat. They don't really know what the doctrine is. They think, oh, well, maybe that happened. I don't know. So I am trying to tell them a couple of things. Since I've been speaking out, I have met other black members. How long have I been a member? How many black members have I ever known? I don't know any black members of the church. Now I know, what, 60, and that's because I opened my mouth. I would have never known about that. And so I'm here to provide awareness, because awareness will bring change, period. No matter how. If it's with a hammer Or a screwdriver. It will bring change. Change is necessary so that more people aren't continuously harmed. Because if. If I have a. If my grandson keeps hitting another baby and I do nothing, he's going to grow up hurting people. And so I say, no, don't do that. That's not okay. Same thing. It's with the church leaders. They're harming people, and they don't want anybody to say anything about it because it makes them feel bad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:36] And I just want to say I think he knows deep down it was mean for him again, to malign the intentions of people like you, Chanel, people like you, Gerardo, people like Sam, young people like ordained women. September 6th, whoever. He's basically saying they're not sincere in the discriminated or marginalized groups that they're advocating for. And I just want to take issue to that. I think that's. That's insulting very much. That's insulting to all of us. And the. Did any of you notice any irony in him saying that. That ATC people aren't humble and aren't introspective, that they're just looking to find fault, like. And then. And then several of the commenters are said, do you project much? Basically what they're saying is, have Mormon church leaders set the example of introspection right versus fault finding? Because ironically, in this very talk, instead of him saying, maybe we've made mistakes with LGBT people, maybe we've. We have contributed some deaths by suicide, maybe we were racist to people of color, maybe we have mistreated women, maybe, maybe the activists have had some. Some true things that they've been advocating for. Instead of demonstrating the introspection that he's calling for and requiring of activists, he's finding fault and enlarging the beam with us, isn't he?

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:08] Yeah, Yeah. I was thinking you can just literally change the labels when. Whenever he's talking about, you know, the discipleship.

John Dehlin [02:30:16] Oh, right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:17] Well, he compares discipleship versus people, you know, BE versus atc. You can literally change the labels and you'll come up with this.

John Dehlin [02:30:27] You know, are you saying the. That in many instances, activists are behaving more like disciples?

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:33] And church leaders are lacking introspection.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:36] Is that what you're saying?

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:37] Exactly.

Chanel Achenbach [02:30:38] I agree with that.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] I mean, isn't that obvious? Because where's the accountability? They haven't even apologized yet.

Chanel Achenbach [02:30:43] They don't have to.

John Dehlin [02:30:44] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:45] That's what they believe.

John Dehlin [02:30:47] Yeah. And they're on record saying, we need. Elder Oak said, we neither seek nor Offer apologies. That says it all right there. Who's. Who's not introspective.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:58] Yeah. And when someone asked him directly in the University of Virginia, someone asked him directly, do you feel responsible for the suicides of LGBT people? Based, you know, because of the policies of that you've instituted in your church? And he said, I'm not. I'm. I'm gonna be accountable to, like, in another life, to God, basically. He's the only one that's gonna make me accountable for that.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:24] And so to infer that this. This man are being, you know, genuine about listening to people's experiences in the church and why they feel oppressed, and that's how change happened in church. That's. That's not real.

John Dehlin [02:31:40] Yeah. Yeah. Another good comment from one of our viewers. Kim writes, demonizing the activists instead of looking at the church's culture of silencing people. It's a great comment, Kim.

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:52] It's a really good comment.

John Dehlin [02:31:53] All right, let's go to his next comment about cultural identities.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:31:58] So you're very likely aware of how President Nelson recently taught young adults and the rest of us that our primary identities as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are child of God. You could probably say it with me. Child of the covenant and disciple of Jesus Christ. I'm hearing it coming from the presiding authorities. He said that other identifiers can be very important, but none should be elevated above these three. Atc, on the other hand, cleverly plays on cultural identities and seeks to elevate them above all else in the minds and hearts of its followers. It substitutes culturally familiar voices for divine ones. It also tends to increasingly segregate itself from others who think differently, especially the saints, and isolate itself in its own echo chamber. Chaplains. Delicate though it is, you and I must help those to whom we minister avoid allowing their social identities to consume them. Their identities must not become the lens through which they see everything, or what Elder Gary E. Stevenson called a spiritual eclipse. ATC fashions such lenses to obscure spirituality and calcify the beams that blind our friends. Amazingly, even when ATC directly and publicly criticizes an apostle or prophet, it often does not see itself as opposing the kingdom. This mindset and modern day verbal stoning of the prophets help us understand how ancient Israel similarly rejected its prophets for like reasons. ATC dismisses prophetic priorities. When the prophet declares the gathering of Israel is the most important thing taking place on earth today, or that the doctrine of Christ is vital, ATC convinces its followers that that's just not true when it comes to defending the United States Constitution and religious freedom. ATC says that's not my issue. And the prophets, seers and revelators just don't get it.

John Dehlin [02:34:20] So the first thing that came to my mind hearing this talk was when Elder David A. Bednar said, there are no homosexuals in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Chanel, I don't know if you remember when he said that, but, you know, of course he wasn't meaning that there aren't members of the church who experienced same sex attraction. What he was saying is, is, is what Corbett was sort of reflecting here, which is that we're children of God, children of the covenant, and disciples of Jesus first, and that all other identities being a black Latter Day Saint, being an LGBT Latter Day Saint, they're either secondary or. I think what Elder Bednar was trying to say is they don't really exist.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:03] And Nelson gave a talk where he literally explicitly said that.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] So Gerardo, as a, as a, as, you know, let's just say as a gay identifying, you know, former Mormon, what, what is your reaction to this idea that that's not an important identity? The only for. Let's just say that there are LGBTQ current active faithful members. What is it? What does it do? What does it mean to tell all them, okay, you may experience same sex attraction, but you're not gay, you're not lesbian. What you are is a son of God and a disciple of Jesus. What does that do? What is it? Why is he doing that? Why are they doing that? And what are the effects? And are any of them negative?

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:50] I think the church has created these labels, you know, of child of the covenant, whatever, and they've given definitions to what that means. They've said a child governance, a child of God is someone that is meek, someone that follows the counsel of the prophet, someone who pays their tithing, goes to the temple, serves a mission, that. That's who a child of God is. So when the church comes and replaces whatever cultural or sexual, whatever identity you have and tells you this is your new identity, this is the identities that you have to prioritize. They're basically telling you or you know, what you, what they're expecting of you, you know, Right. So they're, they're. You're expected to follow the law of chastity, to not date on same sex relationships, to, you know, whatever. And so that's, that, that's the purpose of it, control. Because they can control the definition of, of the, A label that sounds really nice. You know, child of God, they can control the definition of that label. And once you put yourself, you know, once you've identified yourself strongly with that label, you. It's kind of when you're. You're gonna go out with your friends or your mom tells you, remember who you are.

John Dehlin [02:37:20] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:21] You. Have you ever heard that?

John Dehlin [02:37:22] Yeah, of course.

Samantha Shelley [02:37:23] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:23] So it's like a way for your mom to control you by telling you, you know, you need to, you know, don't say bad words. You know, follow the word of wisdom. You know that that's what he means. Remember who you are. You're a child of God. And a child of God follows all these commandments.

John Dehlin [02:37:41] Yeah. So. Yeah, and. And a follow up question I have, and then I'm gonna ask you the same question, Chanel. Like to tell a gay kid, you know, in effect, it's okay to be gay. Just don't do gay. Right? It's okay. It's okay to have same sex attraction. Just don't act on it. What is it? What does it mean to sort of relegate your sexual identity to something that's not that important, that it's secondary in your life to tell a gay Mormon kid, be celibate for the rest of your life because you're a disciple of Christ, or marry a woman that you're not attracted to because you're a disciple of Christ. Go your entire life as a single woman. Go your entire life without any sexual intimacy because your primary identity is a disciple of Christ. What does that do? Is. Is. Is sexual identity in your case, Gerardo, is it just kind of this trivial thing that you can kind of just put aside or turn off?

Gerardo Sumano [02:38:43] Yeah. Well, I think most psychologists would say that sexuality is a very important part of human beings and who they are. That's the way they interact with people. You know, it's not just what happens in the bedroom, but like, romantically, who you fall in love with, emotional connection, emotional friendships. Right. Intimacy, all that. And, you know, telling someone that they just can't experience any of that in this life because of how were they born, the way they were born. I mean, it's a way to have real power of control over that person in the first place, but then also, you know, leads to anxiety and depression and suicidality.

John Dehlin [02:39:25] Absolutely. And that's what my research on the LGBT Mormon community showed. The single worst decision that any of my respondents could have made was, was living a life of celibacy. Because being a celibate Mormon dramatically increased your depression. Dramatically Increased your anxiety dramatically, increased your internalized homophobia, and increased your, your likelihood of suicidal ideation and desires to die. Because sex is an integral part of mental health in this life. And so to then just kind of try and dismiss it as just this, this false label that we give ourselves. Subjugate yourself to, to Jesus. It's a form of conversion therapy.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:17] You're right.

John Dehlin [02:40:18] That is ultimately deadly.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] To many, many people. And I'm going to turn that same question. You should say this.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:24] Is this being not like, you know, turning yourself to Jesus or whatever. Think about being the child of God. Don't act on your attractions being a form of conversion therapy. This is literally vindicated by Dave Matheson, who's like the godfather of Mormon conversion therapy. He, he said that base. That's, that's, you know, a real form of conversion therapy.

John Dehlin [02:40:48] Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's, and it's literally deadly. Chanel, what does it mean to tell you your blackness, your black identity, is really not that important. What's important is you're a disciple of Jesus.

Chanel Achenbach [02:41:02] That's exactly what they told me. And how.

John Dehlin [02:41:05] What's wrong with it?

Chanel Achenbach [02:41:11] I, I, it stops me because I just am remembering things that were said. Oh, gosh, it's not a big deal. Even just recently with the, you know, the blackface kids. It's not a big deal. What is the problem? It's not a big deal. Like, why do you care so much about race? I said I never brought it up. You did. You told me I was cursed. You told me something was wrong, and now you're telling me I never thought about it. You told me about it, and now you don't want me to talk about it. Like you're telling me I can't help but be black. I was born this way. I didn't choose. Yes, you did. In the preexisting, you chose to be black. It's like. Like what? And I'm just tired of them telling me. It's like, it's not a skins. It's not like Roblox or whatever that is the unit. I can just take it off. Like, this is me. So instead of me not accepting my blackness, how about you understand what blackness means? How about you embrace black people as a culture and ingrate it all? You keep saying we unified. How in the hell are we unified if you won't even talk about it, about what it is and what it means? Except for telling me to be quiet and not be black. How do I not be black? I will sit here and I was. How do I not be black? Well, apparently, after you know that, I resurrect, I'll be white. I don't know. That's what they think.

John Dehlin [02:42:36] Yeah. And if it permeates in your case, Roto, every aspect of your identity, if you can't, you know, driving while black can be unsafe. Just existing. The levels of discrimination, even in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon and the End, and the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham all still equate the curse of Cain with. With Mormon doctrine and theology. How can. How are you not made aware of your blackness? Every time you step into a Mormon church, it's always.

Chanel Achenbach [02:43:05] And what they don't understand is. It's why 2016 was so horrible, is because I didn't know. And then to see my friends just say racist things. I'm. I look over like, what did you just say? Like, oh, my gosh. Wait, I've been around you for 20 years. I've been around you for 10 years, and you think these things. You just said a racist thing, and I'm supposed to just take it? Oh, my gosh. Well, you're cursed anyway. And it'll be over. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. I'm, like, freaked out now. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to take this. Get over it. Spirit of contention, if you're talking about these things, I'm uncomfortable. I just said a racist thing. You're calling me on it, and now I'm uncomfortable. So it's your fault.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] Yeah. He literally needs to do what he's asking activists to do, which is develop empathy. I love what you said, Chanel. Talk to black people in the church. Talk to black people who have left the church. Talk to LGBTQ people. Talk to people that were not told the history and were misled in our membership or who were converted to the church without having been told all the true history. Talk to women. Realize why they're suffering. Realize why they're living in droves, display the humility and the introspection that you're asking activists to exhibit. Do it yourself, Brother Corbett. Do it yourself. Church leaders, instead of trying to erase people's core identities. Right. Because isn't it erasure? Isn't that what he's doing is trying to erase your blackness?

Chanel Achenbach [02:44:42] Always have. I mean, that's over 30 something years. Always in anything. Rather, it was food, whether it was a dance, where my hair. Oh, my goodness. I don't even want to get into that. So we'll just move on.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] Yeah. You felt like the church has tried to erase your identity?

Chanel Achenbach [02:44:59] Oh, I didn't feel like it. It was adamant. Hey, that's a little too much, Sister. Hey, you know, you need to change the way you talk. How do I talk? It's a little loud. Like, you know, that's. That's black. People do that.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Throwing it down, like, oh, wow.

Chanel Achenbach [02:45:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:45:16] I'm so sorry. All right, well, this is the good part. I think this is the good part, where he tells us what to do instead of atc. This is the moment we've all been waiting for.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:45:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:29] Are you ready, Chanel?

Ahmad Corbitt [02:45:31] Buckle up.

John Dehlin [02:45:31] Are you ready, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:32] All right. He's going to tell us what to do if we don't do atc. Here's what we should do.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:45:40] How should we counsel church members who encounter injustice or mistreatment? The Lord has made much provision for accomplishing his work. These include making an appointment with local leaders, humbly and lovingly expressing concerns, sharing observations, even lodging formal complaints. Complaints, indeed, the Lord's revealed system of sustaining common consent invite and encourage such righteous approaches in the face of misconduct. As a local priesthood leader, I have been the recipient of complaints regarding leaders at every level of the church. When such complaints were properly approached, the complaining party and I were mutually edified, and we saw effective resolution of the issues legitimately raised. On the one occasion I can think of where ATC got involved. Let me briefly share that. A recently activated brother protested my teaching of the A proclamation to the world. He very publicly and obviously walked out of the sacrament meeting during my talk, he also failed to sustain his leaders at various levels. As his stake president, I came, counseled him about the impropriety of his method and helped him understand the prophetic principles he had misunderstood. I might add that although his conduct was inappropriate, church leaders continued to help him financially support his family for a time and regain employment. We recognized who he really was, overlooked his lapse in judgment, and taught him. Additionally, as you know, the Lord has even established procedures for the discipline and or removal of leaders who mistreat others or offend in other ways. And we just heard President Nelson talk about abuse in conference. President Eyring quoted President George Q. Cannon, who warned, God has chosen his servants. He claims it as his prerogative to condemn them if they knew need condemnation. But he has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No one, however strong in the faith, however high in the priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord's anointed and find fault with God's authority on earth without incurring his displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw himself from such a person and he or she will go into darkness.

John Dehlin [02:48:06] Darkness.

Ahmad Corbitt [02:48:07] Close quote.

Official Channels for Raising Concerns Examined

John Dehlin [02:48:08] All right, I'm super confused because it seems like he started out saying we have lots of different avenues for voicing concerns. And he lists the rule of common consent where we all kind of rotely, blindly, mechanically raise our arms to the square. Do we all know what Sam, When. When Sam Young or when, you know, Douglas still go, or Nemo, when anybody has ever tried to use the process of informed consent to make changes in the church, has it ever made any difference?

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:41] Well, he criticized someone who did, who didn't sustain their leaders.

John Dehlin [02:48:44] Well, okay, he gets to that, but I'm just saying he did. When he first mentioned in common consent, he was basically saying, hey, look, the church wants feedback, it wants criticism. Talk to your local leaders. And the church implemented common consent as a way for the church to get feedback when it. When is the church ever responded to a member raising their arm and saying they disagree? It never has. So that was super bizarre that, that by common consent thing is robotic and it has nothing to do with the church changing. But then he goes on to say that, that you can counsel with your leaders if you have problems with. But then he immediately follows it up by saying, don't speak evil of the Lord's anointed or the Lord will condemn. God will condemn those people. It's God's job to condemn the leaders, not us. Which is a Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [02:49:39] I. I wish they would tell me because I'm telling you what. I've had so many conversations with church leaders over the years and it never went well.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] What happened when you, when you tried.

Chanel Achenbach [02:49:50] So for example, for once. So remember I am a woman in the church trying to be married and date. And I remember this guy that I was seeing. I can't say date. He has. He says we're seeing each other for like two years, but we're seeing each other. And then finally we start talking about marriage. And he said, we need to talk. Of course he was white. Brings me the scriptures, second Nephi 5. 21. And I'm like. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's not like all of a sudden I turn black and we can't get married now he's like, we cannot mix. And this, this and that. And I was, I was freaked out. So I made an appointment with my bishop, went to talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:50:31] You were dating a white man. Is that yes. Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [02:50:33] And I said.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:34] And the white man, like, pointed out the Book of Mormon scripture, telling him we can't marry.

Chanel Achenbach [02:50:40] I hope he's watching. Hope he's watching. He's been.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:42] But they've been dating for two.

Chanel Achenbach [02:50:44] It was two years. We were going to institute in the temple and doing all this. So I went to the bishop and I was crying and bawling and freaked out, and I said, bishop, I'm gonna call him Bishop White. And I said, hey. He said that we can't get married because of this scripture. And I'm telling you what. I think that bishop wanted to hurt me. I think he wanted to punch me because he was so mad. He goes, utah's not ready for that. Utah is not ready for interracial. And he wasn't sweet with the spirit. He was mean. He was like. Like, how dare you ask me about this? Absolutely not. He is right. You need to listen to him. He's a priesthood holder. And I was like, oh, my gosh. But. No, but, but we. We've been doing this for two years. And I go to institute, I pay my tithing. I have a temple recommend. I read my scriptures all the time. I can quote anything to you. I'm doing what you told me to do. Why would he tell me that? He's like, what is wrong with you? It's a scripture right there. That is. That is a. No. Utah is not ready for that. And I got a blessing that night. But still, he was so mad at me for questioning. I. I didn't know what was going on. I thought, this guy has got to be wrong. I mean, cuz we never fought, we dated, we went to the temple, and then the bishop was mad at me for asking him about it.

John Dehlin [02:52:00] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:01] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] And I. I've got. I mean, Gerardo, if you had gone to your bishop and said, hey, I'm. I love Zach and we want to get married. Help me out, Bishop. You know, with the same.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:11] Would they have, like, would he have worked on your behalf to help your

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:14] situation, even just date? I think it would be kind of like a toss up, just whatever. You know, bishops would say different things on that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:25] And Sam Young went to his local leadership and I went to my local leadership, and there. There's no real Bill.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:31] Real Jeremy Reynolds.

John Dehlin [02:52:33] Yeah. Like the. The local leaders sustain the leaders above them. So there's no world where a Mormon Stake president is going to go to a general authority or the first presidency of the Quorum of the twelve and say, hey, we need to change the Book of Mormon to get the racist garbage out of the Book of Mormon. Oh, we need to, you know, we need to give women the priesthood. Oh, we need to get. We need to support same sex marriage and let LGBT kids date. Oh, the church needs to stop lying about its history. There's no universe where a local bishop or stake president is going to advocate what needs to be advocated on behalf of the marginalized to the upper leadership. They're literally chosen because they're yes men, so it's never going to happen. And then if you write letters to the brethren directly, they literally send them back down to the bishops and stake presidents, who then get mad at you for going over their head. So there's literally no recourse for criticizing the brethren in this church. And then he ends by threatening you by saying, the Lord is displeased if you criticize. The Lord's anointed. So it's like a double bind.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:38] Even if we go all the way back, you know, we have the stories of Sandra Tanner going, meeting literally with an apostle about, you know, like, problems with the first vision and the apostle just dismissing what, what they were saying. And when they, when they got him into a corner and said, yeah, were you telling us it's not true? He just didn't meet with them anymore and just left. So

John Dehlin [02:54:04] it's like saying. It's like saying the foxes are eating the chickens. Go to the foxes if you have any problems with it. Yeah, right.

Samantha Shelley [02:54:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:13] Yeah, there's a fox in the hen house. You know, send your complaints to the fox. It's just. It's. It's not.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:21] You met with Jeffrey Ahan twice.

John Dehlin [02:54:24] Yeah, with him twice.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:25] Have you given him, like, suggestions and what would he say?

John Dehlin [02:54:29] He literally said, you know, the church isn't mature enough to be able to make these changes. Yeah, maybe in a couple decades we'll be able to make the changes you recommend. And I believe him. I think he was relatively powerless, given all the other members of the quorum. Like, I. I wouldn't want to be an apostle and try and make change in this church. You'll get squashed like a bug. Look what happened to Uchtdorf when Uchtdorf simply said, hey, let's be kind to people who question their faith. He was kicked out of the first presidency. Like, yeah, even apostles can't make change in this church. That's what's weird and tragic. All right, well, we're almost getting to the end. We're almost there. Now he's going to talk to us about how The Lord has brought about significant change. Here we go. Oh, here we go.

Credit for Change and Closing Reflections on Activism

Ahmad Corbitt [02:55:21] The Lord has brought about significant change in his church through appropriate means and methods. Let me conclude with these couple mentions. Although these changes have affected all members of the body of Christ, Christ, time permits mention of just a very few without fanfare. Some have encouraged the removal of folklore about people of African descent from among the literature of the kingdom. More recently, an appropriate and important effort was made to recognize the contributions of great black pioneers, including motion pictures and the dedication of statues and memorials. President M. Russell Ballard, Elder D. Todd Christofferson and Brother Mauley Bonner, who appropriately and skillfully guided the church to this important recognition, and others all attended this historic event. The First Presidency's B1 program commemorating the 40th anniversary of the revelation on priesthood, President Nelson's call for all of us to lead out in abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice against any of God's children, and President Oak's counsel to root out racism are all examples.

John Dehlin [02:56:36] All right, well, Chanel, problem solved. The. The church is good with racism. Did you have any reactions to. Oh, let me first ask, what did you think of the B1 celebration when it happened?

Chanel Achenbach [02:56:49] No comment.

John Dehlin [02:56:50] Really? Just so. So describe what it was and then describe what you. If you don't mind.

Chanel Achenbach [02:56:56] Well, the B1 thing, I. I'm not. I don't have a lot of information on it because I just didn't want to be bothered. People are trying to send me information on it, and at that point I didn't want to hear it. But I did go to the statue monument. I was there.

John Dehlin [02:57:13] He's basically saying, let me just. Let me. Tell me if it's okay if I set this up. For those who don't have the history, there's just. We. Half of our listenership reviewership has never been Mormon, so they didn't even know what B1 was. So for decades and decades, people have been wanting the church to apologize to black people for its racism. They've refused to do that. But what they felt like would be a nice gesture, booby prize, or gesture would be to hold this event at the conference center where they bring up gospel choirs, where they. Where they dress up black members as Mormon pioneers, they sing a lot of songs, do a lot of dancing, and tell a lot of stories that honor black Mormon pioneers, basically. As if that was somehow a nice alternative to actually apologizing. Is that a fair characterization of what the B1 that exactly was.

Chanel Achenbach [02:58:08] And then they tried to bring up Genesis group to me and all of this and the B1, all that. And I, I said, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to shut it down. Please don't talk to me about it because that's not an apology.

John Dehlin [02:58:19] You just, you just said, I don't want some pageant.

Chanel Achenbach [02:58:21] Yeah, I shut it down. I'm like, don't talk to me about it.

John Dehlin [02:58:24] And then, but he's saying that's some big magnanimous gesture that the church did change. No, the church changed. That the Lord made some big change.

Chanel Achenbach [02:58:33] So how does that change the minds and hearts of people who think we are cursed and that we're evil and gross?

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:41] And for the scripture itself.

Chanel Achenbach [02:58:43] Right, the scriptures are still there saying that. So like when you're, you're in Sunday school or something and they start talking about the curse and the mark of Cain and then everybody looks at you and you're sitting there like, yeah, I'm the curse one. Hi. You know, it's, it is so damaging. What about my kids? What about my kids? You know, I'm an adult person who's strong enough to take that. I put my kids in that so they can hear that too. So when people are in seminary, whatever, like, yeah, you guys are crazy. You little nasty, naughty, dirty people. And it's like, and then my kids come to talk to me about them, like, hey guys, it's just, you know, part of life. And that's so gross.

John Dehlin [02:59:20] Like, yeah, that you make such a great point, Chanel, that a few hour pageant that the overwhelming majority members of the church didn't even know happened, let alone attended. Like, that's not the change that's needed. How about take the racism out of the Book of Abraham, out of the Book of Moses and out of the Book of Mormon itself. That would be real change. And, and instead they're going to celebrate some two or three hour pageant that they did and basically say it was the Lord that commanded the pageant and

Chanel Achenbach [02:59:54] nobody knew about it. And nobody knew about the monument either. I didn't see one person I knew there except for the people I went with to with the Green Flake and J Money. How is it that I was a member for over 30 years and I never heard of Green Flag Flake or Jane Manning ever? Yeah, why are you bringing it up now?

John Dehlin [03:00:08] Yeah. And who even, yeah, who even attended the statue?

Chanel Achenbach [03:00:12] I, I, I went with people that I knew because we were like, wait, what? Finally you know, something that's being said. Wait, who's Green Flake? I didn't even know who Green Flake I guarantee you members now don't even know who Green Flake is. I didn't see one member there that I knew. Not one.

John Dehlin [03:00:28] Yeah, yeah. Like, it's weird that he thinks. Thinks they should be congratulated for holding a pageant that no one knew about or attended and for putting up some statues that nobody knew got put up and nobody attended. The putting up of the statues like that is laudable. Noteworthy progress, John.

Chanel Achenbach [03:00:50] But what you guys don't know, it wasn't the church that push that. That's why it's more disgusting to me. It was the Bonners and Sisters of Zion and other people.

John Dehlin [03:01:02] Activists. Activists, right. Who are the Bonners?

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:06] They're the singing group. They're a black singing group. They're family. They're members of the church. They sing a lot. They sang there that day and they're the ones who did the movie. And the thing is, they pushed it, and then the church finally will participate, but it wasn't them saying, hey, Bonners, Hey, Sisters of Zion, guess what? We realized that Green Flake was so instrumental in building Utah as a pioneer. We're going to do this. No, they pushed the church. That is different. That's what I'm trying to explain the church. How long have you known about Green Flake? Since Brigham Young was here with them, but we've never heard about it. Why is that? They can explain that to me with an apology.

John Dehlin [03:01:46] Yeah, yeah. And it's so ironic. I didn't even know that. So thank you. Literally, he's giving church leaders and the Mormon God credit for what activists like the Bonners and Sisters and Sistas and Zion were responsible for, all while demeaning and decrying activism in the church. Isn't that outrageous?

Chanel Achenbach [03:02:12] Very much so, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:13] It's outrageous. It's disgusting. And then the other thing that was just ridiculous is he basically said, the Lord, you know, gets credit for removing folklore from the. From the gospel topic. You know, with the gospel topics essay. The Lord was magnanimous enough to denounce past racist teachings as folklore. So again, we've already covered this, but we're going to cover it again. Chanel.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:40] Well, no, he's not saying teachings. He's saying it was folklore and we removed the folklore. But he's. He won't go as far as to say these were doctrines, these were teachings.

John Dehlin [03:02:51] Exactly.

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:52] He will say these were always folklore. Always presented as folklore. Yeah, and we just went and removed them.

John Dehlin [03:02:59] And that's what I'm saying. My two questions were, number one, was it folklore?

Chanel Achenbach [03:03:03] Chanel Not a chance.

John Dehlin [03:03:04] What was it? It was doctrine signed by the First Presidency.

Chanel Achenbach [03:03:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:03:08] So it was, it wasn't folklore. And then the second thing is, you know, who led the change? Was it the Lord? What?

Chanel Achenbach [03:03:17] Yeah, activists.

John Dehlin [03:03:18] It wasn't the Lord. It was the. It was the University of Wyoming football team. It was the Stanford, University of Stanford protesters. It was, it was, you know, Lowell Bennion and, and it's a lot of people. A lot of people.

Chanel Achenbach [03:03:33] It wasn't the 12 and the three and the.

John Dehlin [03:03:35] No, it was Dialogue magazine. It was Sunstone. It was.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:38] The thing is, like, as far as I know, the only place where the church calls out the past racist teachings of the past is in the Gospel topic essay which the majority of members have never read.

John Dehlin [03:03:50] Oh yeah, they don't even know the essays exist.

Samantha Shelley [03:03:52] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:52] So the majority of members wouldn't even know that this happened, this change happened.

John Dehlin [03:03:58] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:03:58] Most members like Chanel brings, brings up. They still believe that black people are cursed.

John Dehlin [03:04:05] Yeah, for sure. And the Book of Mormon continues to call Dark skin a curse to this very day. And you've already kind of referenced this Chanel. But I just want to give you one more chance. He wants to say Elder Oaks called on members to root out racism and that's a very significant act on the Church's part. What are your thoughts on Oaks's call to Mormons to root out racism?

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:28] Try again. I have Oaks's talk about Black Lives Matter and what he said about that and statues and different things. No, he's contradicting himself and double standard and a hypocrite when it comes to that. When, if, if Elder Oaks and anybody else wants to root out racism, first they have to identify what it is, they have to admit it, they have to acknowledge it, and then they have to implement different events and activities to change what it does to people. What it does to an 18 year old girl who's believing, bright eyed, that this is something that's going to be good for her just to be harmed by people that she loves. Just. It's like a. It's like a little puppy you get and you're just kicking it and kicking it, but you feed it and you give it water and you might pet its head so it thinks you love it and then you kick it again and then it keeps coming to you and you kick it again and then it just keeps happening over and over and over. So for them to implement change, they have to admit that there's a problem. First step to fixing a problem is admitting that there Is one.

John Dehlin [03:05:29] So you're saying Oaks and Nelson and the Mormon Church will not even begin to solve the problem of racism within the Mormon Church until they repent and. And follow their own steps of repentance, which begins by admitting and confessing and forsaking their own and apologizing for. And making restitution for correct their own racist past.

Chanel Achenbach [03:05:53] Correct. Because they keep saying it's not true folklore.

Gerardo Sumano [03:05:56] And when Chanel is saying is important defining. They need to define it. Like, what does it mean? You know, what does racism mean? It's racist. When you believe that black people were cursed is racist to say this type of things to black people.

John Dehlin [03:06:11] It's racist to have in your scriptures just the idea that there's any association between dark skin and a curse. And all three. Well, three of the four Mormon scriptures literally equate dark skin with a curse.

Ahmad Corbitt [03:06:26] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [03:06:27] A mark and a curse, which are different. And I don't think people understand. And they're really, really bad. And then to actively teach in your lessons those things and to have church leaders after leaders, after leaders make quotes and documents and books saying these things, it's insane and it's cruel. It's. It's awful.

John Dehlin [03:06:50] Yeah. Shout out to Con Contoura Bella for her super chat. We really appreciate those who. Who donate to make this podcast possible. All right. And. And Guy really loves your. Your quote. He's quoting you, Chanel. You're basically being quoted. How does that feel? He says, can't solve the problem if you're kicking the dog while writing the apology for kicking the dog yesterday. Love it.

Chanel Achenbach [03:07:17] Exactly.

Corbitt's Final Appeal and Panel Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [03:07:18] All right, well, you will be happy to know we are at the end. We have one final quote from Brother Corbett. So let's hear his final conclusion to this wonderful talk.

Ahmad Corbitt [03:07:32] In conclusion, ATC is the wrong approach in the wrong setting applied in an over the top way. We have discussed one, being sensitive to those who are more vulnerable to activism toward the church. Two, recognizing that they are or tend to be very valiant souls. And three, some of the perils of atc, including how this enemy cleverly and effectively undermines the doctrine of Christ, especially faith in Him. Let us help our valiant friends consider the following questions as they decide whether to pursue a cause or follow a particular does it promote the doctrine of Christ in our lives? Does it build faith in Christ, his atonement, his gospel and his promises? Does it lead others to trust God and be confident in the teachings and leadership of his servants? Is it fault finding or critical of church leaders leaders? Does it generate feelings of Love for all others or resentment? Does it foster harmony in Christ among all God's children, or does it tend to divide? Does it seem more geared to advancing a narrative rather than the cause of Christ? In some cases, there is need to warn and urge change. Does it do so consistent with Gospel principles and methods? Or does it tend to rely on worldly wisdom or secular sayings and approaches? Is it contentious or does it introduce peace, unity and healing? Does it advance prophetic priorities? May we.

John Dehlin [03:09:13] You know, I. I just want to apply that standard to Martin Luther King Jr. You know, did Martin Luther King. Was he involved in fault finding?

Chanel Achenbach [03:09:22] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:09:24] You know, did. Did his. Did. Did the civil rights movement universally, you know, create or generate feelings of love? Did the civil rights movement foster harmony? Did it divide? Did it divide people? Right. Was it based on worldly ways and secular teachings? As if that's a bad thing? You know, like that standard that he has for, I guess, acceptable activism or Christ like activism? I don't even think Jesus. I don't even think Jesus himself followed those standards. Jesus found fault, didn't he?

Samantha Shelley [03:10:04] Oh, yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [03:10:04] He found fault with Pharisees. Harshies all the time.

John Dehlin [03:10:06] Exactly. Jesus found fault. Jesus. Did Jesus foster harmony? Jesus fostered so much harmony that they strung him up on a cross and nailed him to it. That's how much harmony Jesus fostered. Did Jesus generate universal feelings of love?

Chanel Achenbach [03:10:21] No.

John Dehlin [03:10:21] They hated him. People hated Jesus. Did Jesus divide? He certainly divided the Romans from the Jews. Right. So, like, his standard is ridiculous.

Chanel Achenbach [03:10:33] I mean, the apostles and prophets, he teased them sometimes. What is it? Doubting Thomas, he. He had many conversations with John not having faith and sinking. I mean, there's so many different apostles and prophets that he talked to that he did criticize and jokingly and, and sometimes firmly and sometimes lovingly. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:57] Yeah. What to me, what, what, what this talk amounts to is keep sweet.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:03] It's to what Warren Jeffs used to tell his polygamous wives. He. I don't know if you knew this, but. But they wrote, he wrote on his shoes, keep sweet. And whenever any woman would come to him and say, I don't like this polygamy thing, I don't like the decisions you're making. I don't like how I'm be treated. He would put his shoes up on the desk where the words keep sweet would be shown to the woman who is objecting. He's basically saying, go to the back of the bus and stay quiet and know your place pretty much. And it's just ironic that they picked A black man to deliver that message.

Chanel Achenbach [03:11:42] Of course they did.

John Dehlin [03:11:45] What do you mean?

Chanel Achenbach [03:11:46] Well, he is a black man telling us black people that suck it up because he did.

John Dehlin [03:11:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:11:56] It makes white people feel really, really good about it.

Chanel Achenbach [03:11:59] Oh, yeah, it makes them. It makes them safe in their racism. It makes them safe in their white supremacy. Oh my gosh. A black person said, it's okay so I can keep being the way I have. I am. I don't have to change. Oh, thank God that black man said this is okay.

John Dehlin [03:12:13] Does that talk make Mormons more or less likely to support Black Lives Matter?

Chanel Achenbach [03:12:20] Oh, my gosh. To justify going against it.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] Of course. Exactly.

Chanel Achenbach [03:12:24] Of course.

John Dehlin [03:12:25] Exactly. Yeah. And then to use a. A black man to deliver that message.

Samantha Shelley [03:12:32] Pr.

John Dehlin [03:12:33] Yeah, Loring. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [03:12:34] Brilliant.

John Dehlin [03:12:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:36] Something I think is this would probably going to be my final thoughts. People that are watching this should be really conscious about. Is that how the church has changed before? You know, when I went on my mission, we would tell people that we looked at the prophet and the prophet guided us to Jesus. Since the church has rebranded and, you know, focus on Jesus, it's not that they got rid of the prophet, is that they are hiding the prophet behind the Mormon image of Jesus. So they're saying following Jesus means not questioning the prophet. Following Jesus means staying quiet and not, you know, not find fault in your oppression. That's what following Jesus is. And you know, the prophet is hiding right there behind Jesus because he, at the end of the day, he is the one that makes the decisions for whatever happens in the church.

John Dehlin [03:13:47] Yeah, yeah, he's mad. He's mad that activism leads many people out of the Mormon Church and eventually to stop believing in God and Jesus. I would say Mormon church leaders are responsible for destroying faith in Jesus more than anybody else. Because. Because Jesus, if Jesus stood for anything, if you need to run, go ahead and. Yeah, if. If Jesus stood for anything. It's my view that Jesus stood for sticking up for the marginalized, sticking up for the poor, sticking up for the needy, sticking up for. For the people who were mistreated. That's the core message that I think Jesus came to this earth to talk about. Jesus himself said, inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. That was Jesus said, to love God is. Is to love your fellow men. And so. And so that is what Jesus's core teachings was about. Jesus's core teachings was not a follow the quorum of the 15 in a multi hundred billion dollar corporation. You know, do what they say. And that's why I died, so that you could follow these white Utah and Idaho leaders of a corporate, you know, Gigachurch. That's not. That's not what Jesus's core message was. And so I. I love what you said, Gerardo. He's basically doing a bait and switch, and he's basically saying, Mormon Jesus says, follow the brethren. But I don't think that's what New Testament Jesus came. I don't think that's what New Testament Jesus bled and died for was for us to obey these white corporate Utah and Idaho leaders of a corporate church.

Gerardo Sumano [03:15:44] I agree.

John Dehlin [03:15:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that sense, he is really bastardizing. He's kind of an antichrist. He's. He's perverting and bastardizing the teachings of Jesus for the good of. Of the corporate interests. Seems like it.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:01] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a bad thing. So, Gerardo, thank you so much for bringing this talk to our listeners. I think it really needed to be addressed.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:13] Yeah, thanks. And thanks for listeners for watching. It went three hours.

John Dehlin [03:16:17] Yeah, you. You guessed it. You said it would go three hours. I'm like two. For sure. We could do this in two. And you're. And you left.

Gerardo Sumano [03:16:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:25] Yeah. All right. Well, I also want to thank all the people who joined us. We had amazing comments both on YouTube and on Facebook, and we just love our, you know, those who listen to and support Mormon Stories podcast. We literally. Well, we couldn't do without you, Gerardo. We couldn't do it without, you know, Maven's helping out, Brooklyn Nemo, all Samantha, all those who. Who help the OPA Stories foundation survive and thrive, including our board of directors, Clint Martin and Carrie Whip back. We just couldn't do it without all of you. And most importantly, we definitely couldn't do this without the. The people who financially support us. So a huge thank you to the people who. Who support what we do. We could not do it without you. And finally, Chanel had to run to the restroom. But we want to definitely thank both Samantha Shelley on Zelf on the Shelf. Please check out Zelf on the Shelf. If you can please donate to their Patreon, because we really love Samantha and Tanner and all that they do on Zelf on the Shelf. But we also are just super grateful for Chanel Achenbach. Chanel, this is the second time you have been kind enough to come on Mormon Stories podcast, and it shouldn't be the burden of the. The person who is in the marginalized group to educate the rest of us, you, you all have enough of a burden yourself to just survive the trauma that you experienced from your Mormon experience. So it is just an extra sign of generosity, Chanel, that you would take the extra burden of coming onto this podcast to teach us, to educate us so eloquently, so gracefully, to help us understand how truly harmful so many of these teachings are. Chanel, we can't thank you enough.

Chanel Achenbach [03:18:21] I appreciate it. And I think one of the reasons, too, is that people understand. I wasn't here complaining and mad and. And saying, burn it down. I was saying, hey, these are some things that are happening. This is how I felt. This is how other people are feeling who are too afraid to speak up because they know the consequences of speaking up. Truth. I had a friend recently, tell me, actually a few friends, is that it's. I don't. What do they say? I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but I love you. No, it's not that you don't agree with my post because I'm not lying and I'm using your leader's words is you don't like my post. That's a big difference. And Facebook is different than tick tock, tick tock. I'm able to. To give some information, to educate and to help Facebook. It's an echo chamber. They don't want to hear it. They want me to shut up. They don't want to hear it. They don't engage with me. Everyone's. While they send me a mean message. And it's like, okay, I understand that. What I'm trying to do is help you understand that you're part of an organization that actively is hurting people. Your family is safe. Mine is not. Just the other day, I'm in Utah County. This never happened in Utah County. And I've been in Utah since 97. A kid called me the N word. And I usually, I don't cry. Usually I do something worse. I yell back at him or something. But I hurt me. And usually it doesn't. And because I just. I'm like, whatever, you know? But it was finally a county in Utah that I hadn't heard that word. And I was so happy, I'm like, nope, see, it's not going to happen in Utah County. And then it did four years later. So. And I try to tell members that's still happening in the community. Well, where's your proof? Okay, got it.

John Dehlin [03:20:16] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [03:20:23] It is what it is, right? And you keep trying to Tell people that you love so that they can understand what's happening. And you know what I think? Think it's fear. I think they're afraid. They see that it's happening, and it might happen to their own families, and maybe that's why they don't get it. I don't. I don't know. But they're okay with it's happening to me and mine.

John Dehlin [03:20:43] Yeah. And what for me is particularly scary is it feels like over the past five to 10 years, we're going backwards in terms of racism and bigotry here in the United States. For a long, long time, I was, you know, believing the words of Martin Luther King Jr. That the arc of justice, the arc of history, is long and it bends towards justice. And I still am a person of faith in the sense that I hope that over time, in the long run, we do a better and a better job of rooting out racism and homophobia and misogyny. But over the past five or 10 years, it's just to seem like it's actually gotten worse, not better.

Chanel Achenbach [03:21:24] Guess what, John? I don't think you understand what you're doing. I don't think you give yourself enough credit for what you're doing. For you speaking up for people like me or him or anybody else, I think that's really. I don't think you get. Can't come from me. They don't care. They've proven that. But I guarantee you, they'll listen to you. And for the ones who are mad, they'll get over it. But the ones that are like, oh, John, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:21:50] It's.

Chanel Achenbach [03:21:50] It's necessary. Very necessary.

John Dehlin [03:21:55] Well, thank you. But thank you most of all for just being willing to come and be a part of this episode, because it would not have been nearly as powerful without you here, Chanel. And when you appeared on the LDS discussions episode about racism in the church, I just can't tell you how many people asked for Chanel's story. And I think we have some good news to report, don't we?

Chanel Achenbach [03:22:17] Yes, we do. Which is, I'll be giving you my story.

John Dehlin [03:22:20] Yeah. Chanel's coming on Mormon Stories podcast, and she's going to tell her story. So we get more Chanel.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:28] It's awesome.

John Dehlin [03:22:29] Yeah. We need more cowbell and more Chanel. Those are the two things that we need.

Chanel Achenbach [03:22:33] Sounds great.

Samantha Shelley [03:22:33] All right.

John Dehlin [03:22:34] And, Gerardo, you're always. It's just always so great to have you. Thank you.

Chanel Achenbach [03:22:38] Bridal's adorable.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:39] Thanks. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:22:41] Yeah. All right. Well, Chanel, you take care. And we can't wait to see you back on Mormon Stories.

Gerardo Sumano [03:22:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:22:47] You, too, Gerardo. Thanks, Samantha. And Samantha's great. Yeah, Samantha's so great. She's. She. Her words are like knives. They cut to the very quick.

Chanel Achenbach [03:22:56] Yeah, that girl.

John Dehlin [03:22:58] Anyway. All right, everyone, thanks so much for joining us on Mormon Stories today. Be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Let's rate. Let's root out racism, sexism, and homophobia. And let's keep being activists. Let's be activists as Jesus would have us be. And I say these things in the name of activist Jesus. Amen. Take care, everybody. We'll see you all again soon on Mormon Stories. Bye. Bye.